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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:04,042 --> 00:00:07,063 There is one role that follows me wherever I go. 2 00:00:08,356 --> 00:00:10,603 You could say it's omnipresent. 3 00:00:13,695 --> 00:00:15,218 It's having played God. 4 00:00:16,882 --> 00:00:18,355 I think what resonates with people 5 00:00:18,416 --> 00:00:20,434 is that God would appear among us, 6 00:00:21,233 --> 00:00:23,161 but not with some angelic halo, 7 00:00:24,468 --> 00:00:26,469 more as an ordinary person, 8 00:00:27,582 --> 00:00:28,188 a janitor, 9 00:00:29,048 --> 00:00:29,990 carpenter. 10 00:00:31,276 --> 00:00:35,176 Jesus is not the only example of human incarnation of God. 11 00:00:35,932 --> 00:00:38,734 The Egyptian Pharaohs, the emperors of the Inca 12 00:00:38,926 --> 00:00:41,162 were all considered divine. 13 00:00:42,908 --> 00:00:43,808 Makes you wonder 14 00:00:45,024 --> 00:00:47,491 why do people want to see God walk among us? 15 00:00:51,508 --> 00:00:53,461 I'm going on a journey 16 00:00:53,952 --> 00:00:58,447 to discover how different faiths see God taking human form. 17 00:01:00,278 --> 00:01:04,008 I'll meet a goddess living in the body of a Nepali girl. 18 00:01:04,343 --> 00:01:06,294 She's the Kumari, we're going to get a chance 19 00:01:06,399 --> 00:01:07,549 to get her blessing today. 20 00:01:08,916 --> 00:01:11,171 I'll visit a Hindu sect whose God 21 00:01:11,232 --> 00:01:13,485 walked the earth just 200 years ago. 22 00:01:13,809 --> 00:01:16,635 Just as Jesus was God on Earth, 23 00:01:16,696 --> 00:01:18,771 Swaminarayan was God on earth. 24 00:01:20,318 --> 00:01:23,739 I'll witness a host of Gods come down to Hanoi. 25 00:01:26,158 --> 00:01:28,882 And discover ancient archaeological evidence 26 00:01:28,943 --> 00:01:31,189 of when Jesus became a god. 27 00:01:33,921 --> 00:01:35,815 Here's the momentous word here, 28 00:01:37,085 --> 00:01:40,255 to the god Jesus Christ. 29 00:01:55,476 --> 00:01:57,313 There is one god on earth 30 00:01:57,491 --> 00:02:00,383 whose followers number in the billions... 31 00:02:01,330 --> 00:02:02,642 Jesus. 32 00:02:03,839 --> 00:02:04,880 Every Christmas, 33 00:02:05,344 --> 00:02:08,211 throngs of pilgrims converge on the starting point 34 00:02:08,272 --> 00:02:10,422 of his terrestrial journey... 35 00:02:11,465 --> 00:02:12,851 Bethlehem. 36 00:02:17,002 --> 00:02:19,816 The Church of the Nativity on Manger Square 37 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:22,274 is built over the spot where the faithful 38 00:02:22,387 --> 00:02:24,596 believe the manger once stood. 39 00:02:27,890 --> 00:02:30,379 Franciscan priest Father Peter Vasko 40 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,585 is taking me to the exact place where Helena, 41 00:02:33,812 --> 00:02:36,168 mother of Roman Emperor Constantine, 42 00:02:36,482 --> 00:02:38,352 believed Jesus was born. 43 00:02:40,393 --> 00:02:41,202 Wow. 44 00:02:42,153 --> 00:02:43,956 Hundreds of thousands of pilgrims have come 45 00:02:44,017 --> 00:02:46,204 from around the world to be here. 46 00:02:47,136 --> 00:02:49,267 Now over here, we'll go down here, 47 00:02:50,637 --> 00:02:52,688 here is the manger. 48 00:02:54,056 --> 00:02:55,989 Okay, this is what we're looking for. 49 00:02:57,525 --> 00:02:59,950 So we're in the actual place where our Lord was born. 50 00:03:01,187 --> 00:03:01,875 Very powerful, 51 00:03:02,212 --> 00:03:04,393 and one of the holiest shrines that we have. 52 00:03:06,810 --> 00:03:09,284 Christians venerate this site now, 53 00:03:09,671 --> 00:03:13,224 but I'm eager to understand when Jesus the preacher, 54 00:03:13,504 --> 00:03:14,989 Jesus the Rabbi 55 00:03:15,259 --> 00:03:18,595 came to be seen as the divine Jesus. 56 00:03:20,272 --> 00:03:23,264 The answer may lie 86 miles to the north. 57 00:03:29,906 --> 00:03:31,082 I've been offered a glimpse 58 00:03:31,143 --> 00:03:33,255 of an archaeological discovery so important 59 00:03:33,972 --> 00:03:36,040 that it was re-buried for protection 60 00:03:36,171 --> 00:03:38,407 almost as soon as it was discovered. 61 00:03:39,976 --> 00:03:42,884 It was unearthed in 2005 62 00:03:43,767 --> 00:03:45,324 when work started on an expansion 63 00:03:45,385 --> 00:03:48,128 of a high security Israeli prison. 64 00:03:52,702 --> 00:03:53,449 Hi. 65 00:03:56,386 --> 00:03:58,752 Now the prison offers welcome security, 66 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,798 as the site has been recently exposed again for further study. 67 00:04:05,593 --> 00:04:08,914 Here to show me around is scholar of comparative religion, 68 00:04:08,975 --> 00:04:10,693 Doctor Yonatan Moss. 69 00:04:10,874 --> 00:04:12,333 -Hello. -Hello sir. 70 00:04:12,393 --> 00:04:13,841 I hear you have proof 71 00:04:14,811 --> 00:04:16,151 that early Christians 72 00:04:16,814 --> 00:04:18,347 thought that Jesus was God. 73 00:04:18,752 --> 00:04:21,479 We do have proof along those lines. 74 00:04:22,013 --> 00:04:23,053 This here 75 00:04:23,564 --> 00:04:26,206 is an excavation of what 76 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:29,902 was discovered to be an early Christian prayer hall. 77 00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:33,469 And here is this fantastic mosaic. 78 00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:36,117 Back in the early 3rd Century, 79 00:04:36,660 --> 00:04:37,815 this mosaic 80 00:04:39,075 --> 00:04:40,938 was the floor of a house, 81 00:04:41,515 --> 00:04:43,979 one of the oldest Christian houses of worship 82 00:04:44,335 --> 00:04:45,407 ever discovered. 83 00:04:48,395 --> 00:04:51,679 So, we are actually in a house here. 84 00:04:51,740 --> 00:04:54,187 Yes, so what does this look like to you? 85 00:04:56,164 --> 00:04:57,588 -Greek. -Exactly. 86 00:04:57,896 --> 00:04:58,879 Greek to us. 87 00:04:59,268 --> 00:05:00,663 Well, let me read it for you. 88 00:05:00,724 --> 00:05:01,309 Okay. 89 00:05:02,014 --> 00:05:04,092 Pros enikein Akeptous. 90 00:05:04,778 --> 00:05:06,469 Akeptos is somebody's name. 91 00:05:06,983 --> 00:05:08,875 And what did this woman Akeptos do? 92 00:05:09,450 --> 00:05:11,750 Pros enikein, she dedicated 93 00:05:12,563 --> 00:05:14,688 this table, the table. 94 00:05:15,551 --> 00:05:17,251 What table is she talking about. 95 00:05:17,457 --> 00:05:18,502 Do we see any remnants? 96 00:05:18,563 --> 00:05:19,558 What about right there in the middle? 97 00:05:20,170 --> 00:05:20,921 Bingo. 98 00:05:21,218 --> 00:05:23,849 This is the base of the table 99 00:05:24,050 --> 00:05:25,164 that would have been in this church. 100 00:05:25,426 --> 00:05:26,166 -Altar. -Altar. 101 00:05:26,325 --> 00:05:27,018 Exactly. 102 00:05:27,229 --> 00:05:28,638 Now she doesn't call it an altar, 103 00:05:28,699 --> 00:05:30,793 but this would have been where they would have their 104 00:05:30,921 --> 00:05:32,846 religious, liturgical celebration, 105 00:05:32,987 --> 00:05:34,779 maybe something like the Eucharist. 106 00:05:41,350 --> 00:05:43,940 And it would have been the table, 107 00:05:44,381 --> 00:05:45,641 maybe altar, 108 00:05:46,038 --> 00:05:48,040 for the celebration of the bread and the wine. 109 00:05:50,897 --> 00:05:53,947 Biblical scholars believe the sharing of bread and wine 110 00:05:54,101 --> 00:05:56,453 as the divine body and blood of Jesus 111 00:05:56,849 --> 00:06:00,014 has been part of Christian worship since the 1st century. 112 00:06:00,634 --> 00:06:04,267 And, as suggested by the letters of the Apostle Paul, 113 00:06:04,460 --> 00:06:06,312 many of the early church leaders 114 00:06:06,419 --> 00:06:07,224 were women. 115 00:06:08,422 --> 00:06:09,930 I think it's very interesting 116 00:06:09,991 --> 00:06:11,770 that it's a woman who dedicates this table. 117 00:06:13,558 --> 00:06:15,567 It sort of runs counter to... 118 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,407 what we see today. 119 00:06:17,707 --> 00:06:19,019 It does yes. 120 00:06:19,221 --> 00:06:20,743 In the early centuries, 121 00:06:21,177 --> 00:06:23,171 because Christianity was kind of an 122 00:06:23,232 --> 00:06:25,741 underground and counter cultural movement, 123 00:06:25,885 --> 00:06:28,322 it was often the people who were in a... 124 00:06:28,485 --> 00:06:31,405 somewhat subjugated position within society, 125 00:06:31,719 --> 00:06:33,422 who accepted Christianity, 126 00:06:33,938 --> 00:06:36,540 earlier than people in positions of power. 127 00:06:36,814 --> 00:06:37,453 Right. 128 00:06:37,754 --> 00:06:39,743 And one of the main demographics 129 00:06:40,190 --> 00:06:41,940 in that category were women. 130 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:45,247 Direct archaeological evidence of a woman 131 00:06:45,308 --> 00:06:47,245 leading a 3rd Century church 132 00:06:47,696 --> 00:06:48,798 is a rare find. 133 00:06:49,999 --> 00:06:52,776 But the mosaic reveals something far more momentous 134 00:06:53,511 --> 00:06:55,625 about the people who worshipped here. 135 00:06:56,329 --> 00:06:57,081 It says, 136 00:06:57,213 --> 00:06:59,778 she dedicated the table or offered the table, 137 00:07:00,506 --> 00:07:02,993 and here's the momentous word here, 138 00:07:03,334 --> 00:07:05,354 Theo iesu Christo, 139 00:07:06,084 --> 00:07:09,329 to the God, or God, Jesus Christ. 140 00:07:12,333 --> 00:07:13,518 Not the son of God. 141 00:07:13,930 --> 00:07:14,668 Just God. 142 00:07:15,482 --> 00:07:17,681 So this is the oldest archaeological evidence 143 00:07:17,742 --> 00:07:19,394 that Christians thought of Jesus 144 00:07:20,017 --> 00:07:20,814 as God. 145 00:07:21,173 --> 00:07:24,390 This was the matter of debate among early Christians, right. 146 00:07:24,451 --> 00:07:27,046 We have the Council of Nicea in 325 147 00:07:27,673 --> 00:07:30,405 where they discussed the Trinitarian question, right? 148 00:07:30,572 --> 00:07:31,393 What does it mean? 149 00:07:31,454 --> 00:07:32,513 The Father, the son, the holy ghost. 150 00:07:32,574 --> 00:07:34,401 Exactly, what does it mean to say 151 00:07:34,474 --> 00:07:37,073 that Christ is the son of God? 152 00:07:37,545 --> 00:07:39,271 But what did ordinary Christians believe? 153 00:07:39,732 --> 00:07:42,291 That was always very hard to kind of figure out. 154 00:07:45,234 --> 00:07:47,940 This site would seem to give us the voice 155 00:07:48,001 --> 00:07:49,755 of these ancient Christian women, 156 00:07:49,988 --> 00:07:51,921 and what they believed about Christ. 157 00:07:52,481 --> 00:07:54,311 It's explicitly stated here. 158 00:07:55,547 --> 00:07:56,792 Theou iesu christo. 159 00:07:57,293 --> 00:07:59,237 For these, the people living here, 160 00:07:59,348 --> 00:08:01,549 in this village, in the 3rd century, 161 00:08:01,799 --> 00:08:04,415 they understood Christ to be divine. 162 00:08:04,970 --> 00:08:07,007 Christ as God. 163 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:08,877 As God, exactly. 164 00:08:13,769 --> 00:08:15,736 Well, this is quite an incredible discovery. 165 00:08:17,352 --> 00:08:20,473 1800 years ago, this ordinary house 166 00:08:21,116 --> 00:08:23,634 was a meeting place for a group of people, 167 00:08:23,782 --> 00:08:26,647 a group of Christians, the dominant voice being women, 168 00:08:26,923 --> 00:08:30,209 played a part in transforming Jesus the rabbi, 169 00:08:30,365 --> 00:08:31,992 Jesus the prophet, 170 00:08:32,585 --> 00:08:34,436 into Jesus the God. 171 00:08:35,138 --> 00:08:36,456 God made flesh. 172 00:08:37,516 --> 00:08:39,812 I would argue it is this transformation 173 00:08:39,873 --> 00:08:42,091 that has given Christianity its longevity. 174 00:08:43,284 --> 00:08:46,279 Billions of souls followed the teaching, not of a man, 175 00:08:47,079 --> 00:08:48,541 but of God. 176 00:08:50,059 --> 00:08:50,912 God on earth. 177 00:08:54,376 --> 00:08:56,943 Jesus's few dramatic decades on earth 178 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,410 confirmed his divinity in the hearts 179 00:08:59,471 --> 00:09:01,337 of Christians for 2,000 years. 180 00:09:02,285 --> 00:09:04,420 Other faiths' gods come and go, 181 00:09:04,567 --> 00:09:06,072 much more frequently. 182 00:09:14,596 --> 00:09:17,253 I've come to the mountain nation of Nepal. 183 00:09:23,108 --> 00:09:24,875 The capital, Kathmandu, 184 00:09:25,062 --> 00:09:27,851 is a noisy, bustling, modern city, 185 00:09:28,119 --> 00:09:31,088 and home to a living goddess. 186 00:09:34,059 --> 00:09:36,618 She resides just down the road from the square, 187 00:09:36,988 --> 00:09:39,276 next to the local produce market, 188 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,101 in the centre of town. 189 00:09:41,303 --> 00:09:44,459 We are going to enter, a very, you know, sacred space. 190 00:09:44,947 --> 00:09:48,300 Anil Chitrakar is a Nepalese cultural ambassador 191 00:09:48,361 --> 00:09:50,416 who is here to help me learn about 192 00:09:50,477 --> 00:09:53,035 the ancient tradition of Kumari. 193 00:09:57,177 --> 00:10:00,012 This is the, space, where the living goddess lives. 194 00:10:01,028 --> 00:10:04,074 We regard the Kumari as something integral to our life, 195 00:10:04,168 --> 00:10:06,026 because they are the protectors 196 00:10:06,147 --> 00:10:08,317 of everything we have and everything we do. 197 00:10:08,557 --> 00:10:09,733 And so, we're gonna get a chance, 198 00:10:09,820 --> 00:10:11,408 you know, for you to actually meet her, 199 00:10:11,803 --> 00:10:13,882 and then, you know, get her blessing today. 200 00:10:15,321 --> 00:10:17,124 About how old is this child? 201 00:10:17,185 --> 00:10:20,202 So, usually, they start around three or four years old. 202 00:10:20,554 --> 00:10:22,088 -Three years old, giving blessings? -Right. 203 00:10:22,487 --> 00:10:23,329 Even today, 204 00:10:23,532 --> 00:10:24,606 you know, the Head of State, you know, 205 00:10:24,667 --> 00:10:27,081 must get a blessing, you know, from this young girl, 206 00:10:27,142 --> 00:10:28,869 to rule this country, you know, for a year. 207 00:10:31,703 --> 00:10:33,598 The Kumari is worshipped as a deity by both 208 00:10:33,659 --> 00:10:36,299 the Nepalese Hindus and Buddhists. 209 00:10:38,033 --> 00:10:41,312 She is chosen from the Buddhist Newari people of this region, 210 00:10:42,162 --> 00:10:46,489 and reigns as a living embodiment of the Hindu goddess, Taleju. 211 00:10:47,788 --> 00:10:49,748 Her Dharma, or duty, 212 00:10:50,188 --> 00:10:53,103 is to bestow blessings on believers. 213 00:10:57,798 --> 00:11:00,080 Be mindful that she will be expressionless, 214 00:11:00,420 --> 00:11:03,073 because the local people, you know, believe that laughter, 215 00:11:03,433 --> 00:11:06,085 you know, a smile, you know, all those expressions 216 00:11:06,146 --> 00:11:08,794 that human beings have, you know, are not a very good sign. 217 00:11:09,361 --> 00:11:12,123 And so, having a straight face, is usually the good thing. 218 00:11:12,184 --> 00:11:13,720 Oh, now, wait a minute! 219 00:11:13,918 --> 00:11:16,891 Well, what if the child sees me and smiles? 220 00:11:16,990 --> 00:11:17,538 Hm-mm, 221 00:11:17,736 --> 00:11:19,339 so, that would not be a very good thing because people believe, 222 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,722 that that could be a bad omen, 223 00:11:21,911 --> 00:11:23,517 you know, that could lead to something bad, like 224 00:11:23,930 --> 00:11:27,211 you know death, or even a legal case, you know, things that, 225 00:11:27,272 --> 00:11:28,933 you know bad things that people want to avoid. 226 00:11:29,183 --> 00:11:30,433 And so generally we believe 227 00:11:30,665 --> 00:11:32,757 that a straight face is what you really want to, 228 00:11:32,962 --> 00:11:33,744 you know, see. 229 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:36,516 Are you coming? 230 00:11:36,768 --> 00:11:38,003 I'm not going to come in. 231 00:11:38,110 --> 00:11:38,916 Okay. 232 00:12:07,602 --> 00:12:10,084 I'm about to have an audience with a living embodiment 233 00:12:10,145 --> 00:12:12,250 of the Hindu god Taleju. 234 00:12:12,842 --> 00:12:16,259 My hope is that the Kumari remains expressionless. 235 00:12:16,581 --> 00:12:18,265 Even the hint of a smile 236 00:12:18,838 --> 00:12:20,838 is said to bring misfortune. 237 00:12:52,463 --> 00:12:53,350 She didn't, 238 00:12:53,528 --> 00:12:54,544 she didn't smile. 239 00:12:55,122 --> 00:12:56,892 As a matter of fact, she didn't have an expression at all. 240 00:12:57,115 --> 00:12:58,314 Okay. That's a good thing. 241 00:12:58,382 --> 00:12:59,298 So that's good for me right? 242 00:12:59,359 --> 00:13:00,766 That's a good thing. 243 00:13:00,918 --> 00:13:02,268 Alright, and I also noticed that... 244 00:13:03,668 --> 00:13:06,150 her feet were up on a little platform. 245 00:13:06,211 --> 00:13:06,823 Pedestal, yes. 246 00:13:07,427 --> 00:13:09,001 So while she is the Kumari, 247 00:13:09,208 --> 00:13:10,578 she should not touch the earth... 248 00:13:10,655 --> 00:13:12,701 Uh-huh. And so she will be carried around. 249 00:13:12,950 --> 00:13:14,325 I see, okay. 250 00:13:14,386 --> 00:13:16,397 And so she gets carried around in a palanquin... 251 00:13:16,458 --> 00:13:17,011 Yeah. 252 00:13:17,386 --> 00:13:19,120 Even when she has to go to festivals 253 00:13:19,260 --> 00:13:21,176 and to attend other rituals in the city. 254 00:13:22,128 --> 00:13:24,277 This royal treatment isn't required 255 00:13:24,338 --> 00:13:26,327 merely out of respect for the divine. 256 00:13:27,292 --> 00:13:30,175 It avoids her receiving cuts to her feet. 257 00:13:31,217 --> 00:13:32,069 If she bleeds, 258 00:13:32,983 --> 00:13:34,798 she ceases to be a goddess. 259 00:13:35,784 --> 00:13:36,526 Of course, 260 00:13:37,006 --> 00:13:39,571 that day can only be put off so long. 261 00:13:40,098 --> 00:13:41,354 With the onset of puberty, 262 00:13:41,415 --> 00:13:43,987 this young girl must return to a way of life 263 00:13:44,191 --> 00:13:46,511 that may now be alien to her. 264 00:13:47,991 --> 00:13:51,728 It seemed like this would be kind of a rough deal for a kid. 265 00:13:51,789 --> 00:13:53,688 It is a rough deal, you know, for a kid, 266 00:13:53,749 --> 00:13:55,551 but I think in this part of the world, 267 00:13:55,812 --> 00:13:58,453 you know, we're constantly reminded about our duty... 268 00:13:58,514 --> 00:13:58,934 Yes. 269 00:13:58,995 --> 00:14:01,369 And so in, you know, sort of the years to come, 270 00:14:01,653 --> 00:14:03,001 the people take great pride in the fact 271 00:14:03,062 --> 00:14:04,844 that she was able to serve her community, 272 00:14:05,011 --> 00:14:06,350 by taking on this duty. 273 00:14:07,539 --> 00:14:09,965 And after is no longer a Goddess.. 274 00:14:10,025 --> 00:14:11,497 -Right. -what is she? 275 00:14:11,595 --> 00:14:12,939 You know once she reaches puberty, 276 00:14:13,170 --> 00:14:14,854 then the community begins to search, 277 00:14:15,034 --> 00:14:16,325 you know, for a second child, 278 00:14:16,498 --> 00:14:17,592 you know, who'll replace her. 279 00:14:17,653 --> 00:14:19,595 She enters the regular family and I think... 280 00:14:19,655 --> 00:14:20,976 She becomes just a regular... 281 00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:21,911 Regular girl. 282 00:14:22,686 --> 00:14:23,279 Got it. 283 00:14:26,107 --> 00:14:28,154 The Kumari can't speak to me. 284 00:14:28,603 --> 00:14:31,321 She can't tell me what it's like to be a living Goddess. 285 00:14:35,706 --> 00:14:38,773 But Anil has arranged for me to visit someone... 286 00:14:40,187 --> 00:14:41,100 who can. 287 00:14:44,186 --> 00:14:46,913 Former Kumari, Matina Shakya. 288 00:14:46,974 --> 00:14:47,953 Namaste. 289 00:14:50,588 --> 00:14:53,051 Matina is not the first in the Shakya line 290 00:14:53,112 --> 00:14:55,055 to have been seen as divine. 291 00:14:56,485 --> 00:14:59,257 The lineage traces back to Siddhartha Gautama, 292 00:15:00,628 --> 00:15:01,517 the Buddha. 293 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:04,981 Now, 294 00:15:05,042 --> 00:15:09,420 Matina has returned to the life of a typical 13-year-old girl. 295 00:15:14,123 --> 00:15:15,369 I just met a Kumari. 296 00:15:16,458 --> 00:15:19,151 She was on her cushion. 297 00:15:19,444 --> 00:15:21,287 Her feet are up on a platform. 298 00:15:21,549 --> 00:15:23,690 And she had no expression. 299 00:15:24,985 --> 00:15:26,376 And I was told that 300 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,443 if she did have an expression 301 00:15:29,459 --> 00:15:31,187 it could be my downfall. 302 00:15:32,486 --> 00:15:35,946 I don't know if you have to think, after a while, 303 00:15:36,007 --> 00:15:38,725 about controlling yourself? 304 00:15:39,126 --> 00:15:40,606 Can you give me any 305 00:15:41,528 --> 00:15:44,092 idea how you felt? 306 00:15:46,877 --> 00:15:48,198 So, no, she doesn't have any, 307 00:15:48,792 --> 00:15:49,590 you know, negative thoughts. 308 00:16:01,872 --> 00:16:03,427 She's saying that for nine years, 309 00:16:03,567 --> 00:16:05,791 the two things she found very good 310 00:16:05,852 --> 00:16:07,639 was her friends would come and play with her, 311 00:16:08,250 --> 00:16:09,823 so she always had the company. 312 00:16:10,182 --> 00:16:12,542 But the second one was, you know, she had tutors, 313 00:16:12,932 --> 00:16:14,874 you know, who took her through the curriculum. 314 00:16:16,601 --> 00:16:18,776 Is it difficult to make the transition 315 00:16:19,175 --> 00:16:22,396 from being the goddess 316 00:16:22,652 --> 00:16:25,301 to being just regular? 317 00:16:27,442 --> 00:16:28,441 Very normal, 318 00:16:29,014 --> 00:16:30,294 she doesn't have any difficulty... 319 00:16:30,509 --> 00:16:32,358 Really? Adjusting to this new life, no. 320 00:16:33,547 --> 00:16:34,530 Do your friends 321 00:16:35,453 --> 00:16:36,921 still think of you as a goddess? 322 00:16:47,965 --> 00:16:50,088 So they recognize both the roles 323 00:16:50,325 --> 00:16:51,696 that she's a former Kumari, 324 00:16:52,006 --> 00:16:53,238 but then when they're playing, 325 00:16:53,330 --> 00:16:54,639 you know, she's just a class mate. 326 00:16:55,081 --> 00:16:55,985 Okay. 327 00:17:01,990 --> 00:17:04,544 What makes you laugh out loud? 328 00:17:17,322 --> 00:17:18,708 Is she gonna say nothing? 329 00:17:22,340 --> 00:17:25,433 Well, I guess she can't grow up as a goddess and not... 330 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,012 -gain some sense of bearing, right? -Right. 331 00:17:30,073 --> 00:17:31,324 -Right -Right. 332 00:17:32,237 --> 00:17:34,206 And I'm struck by her serenity. 333 00:17:45,483 --> 00:17:47,071 What do you want to go in to? 334 00:17:47,351 --> 00:17:50,079 What do you going to do in life? 335 00:18:04,086 --> 00:18:06,031 So she loves her math class a lot, 336 00:18:06,412 --> 00:18:08,642 but what that will lead to she hasn't yet decided. 337 00:18:08,703 --> 00:18:11,502 Right, well that's good enough I'm telling you. 338 00:18:13,859 --> 00:18:16,341 One thing I do not do, math. 339 00:18:19,284 --> 00:18:19,975 Thank you. 340 00:18:20,036 --> 00:18:21,066 You're welcome. 341 00:18:27,264 --> 00:18:30,837 I'm just amazed when I contemplate Matina's childhood. 342 00:18:31,554 --> 00:18:35,411 At the age of three she was elevated to the status of goddess. 343 00:18:37,050 --> 00:18:38,216 That was her Dharma, 344 00:18:39,044 --> 00:18:39,901 her duty; 345 00:18:40,664 --> 00:18:43,169 she was given a role by her community to be a source of 346 00:18:43,229 --> 00:18:46,462 divine blessing and guidance. 347 00:18:49,028 --> 00:18:51,343 To be a bridge between this world, 348 00:18:51,670 --> 00:18:53,195 and the realm of the gods. 349 00:18:56,138 --> 00:18:58,770 That was Matina's burden, 350 00:19:01,019 --> 00:19:02,247 and her honour. 351 00:19:17,683 --> 00:19:21,273 Being a god for a decade shapes the Kumari's entire life. 352 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,646 But some gods enter human bodies for just fleeting moments. 353 00:19:47,482 --> 00:19:49,193 I've come to the city of Hanoi, 354 00:19:49,427 --> 00:19:52,480 Vietnam's capital and cultural heart. 355 00:19:53,471 --> 00:19:55,556 I'm here to witness a ceremony 356 00:19:55,689 --> 00:19:58,611 of the ancient Dao Mau folk religion. 357 00:20:11,465 --> 00:20:12,846 Nguyen Ngoc Vi 358 00:20:13,211 --> 00:20:15,152 is a Dao Mau spirit medium. 359 00:20:15,299 --> 00:20:15,983 Vi, 360 00:20:17,033 --> 00:20:18,155 how are you? 361 00:20:19,324 --> 00:20:20,739 So good to see you. 362 00:20:20,843 --> 00:20:22,750 Yes, nice to meet you, come please. 363 00:20:22,811 --> 00:20:23,730 Thank you. 364 00:20:26,693 --> 00:20:28,190 She's preparing to ask the gods 365 00:20:28,251 --> 00:20:32,000 to come down to earth for Bui Thi Khim Khue, 366 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:35,306 who needs divine guidance in her romantic life. 367 00:20:36,482 --> 00:20:39,575 But first, I want to understand how Vi 368 00:20:39,636 --> 00:20:41,685 became a channel for divine spirits. 369 00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:45,598 How does a young woman like 370 00:20:46,151 --> 00:20:48,172 you become a spirit medium? 371 00:20:52,331 --> 00:20:54,714 People said that when she was very young 372 00:20:54,775 --> 00:20:55,972 she was very uncommon. 373 00:20:56,033 --> 00:20:56,686 Yeah. 374 00:21:00,046 --> 00:21:02,094 We didn't know anything until the day 375 00:21:02,155 --> 00:21:06,234 that my parents went to talk to the Fortune Teller, 376 00:21:06,808 --> 00:21:10,051 and also that I start to see, 377 00:21:10,459 --> 00:21:11,138 gods... 378 00:21:12,211 --> 00:21:12,897 spirit. 379 00:21:20,282 --> 00:21:24,823 So you think these spirits were trying to... 380 00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:27,399 communicate something to you? 381 00:21:27,460 --> 00:21:28,211 Yeah. 382 00:21:31,847 --> 00:21:35,019 One time I receive a message like a dream, 383 00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:37,028 from the God, 384 00:21:37,368 --> 00:21:40,220 and he told me that I should 385 00:21:40,281 --> 00:21:43,612 become a medium to help people. 386 00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:46,686 To be the messenger of God. 387 00:21:53,108 --> 00:21:56,353 Vi has become one of Dao Mau's leading mediums, 388 00:21:57,008 --> 00:21:58,758 drawing people who wish to speak 389 00:21:58,819 --> 00:22:01,280 to the Gods from all over northern Vietnam. 390 00:22:02,216 --> 00:22:03,769 The religion has many deities. 391 00:22:04,189 --> 00:22:06,371 Over several weeks of preparation, 392 00:22:06,755 --> 00:22:10,389 Vi has petitioned several of them to come down to Earth today. 393 00:22:17,295 --> 00:22:18,909 But the ceremony can only begin 394 00:22:18,970 --> 00:22:21,328 when Vi senses the arrival of the Mother Goddess, 395 00:22:22,068 --> 00:22:23,576 a chief deity of Dao Mau 396 00:22:23,987 --> 00:22:26,206 who opens the door for the other gods. 397 00:22:47,611 --> 00:22:48,993 When a deity arrives, 398 00:22:49,582 --> 00:22:53,499 Vi signals her assistants to dress her in that god's clothing. 399 00:23:13,809 --> 00:23:15,294 This deity is a general. 400 00:23:16,038 --> 00:23:17,827 The colour of each god's costume 401 00:23:17,888 --> 00:23:20,953 represents which of the four elements of nature they control; 402 00:23:21,713 --> 00:23:22,275 earth, 403 00:23:22,512 --> 00:23:23,282 sky, 404 00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:24,482 mountain 405 00:23:24,749 --> 00:23:25,548 or water. 406 00:23:59,817 --> 00:24:00,839 Why are you here? 407 00:24:13,731 --> 00:24:16,553 The general leaves without giving a message to Khue. 408 00:24:19,458 --> 00:24:22,426 But a new god is already on the way. 409 00:24:37,389 --> 00:24:40,027 Nguyen Ngoc Vi has prayed for several Gods 410 00:24:40,088 --> 00:24:43,470 of the Dao Mau folk religion to come down to Hanoi today. 411 00:24:45,901 --> 00:24:49,296 She believes one of them can help Bui Thi Khim Khue 412 00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:51,026 with her troubled love life. 413 00:24:58,638 --> 00:25:02,208 As each god arrives Vi welcomes them with a drink, 414 00:25:03,217 --> 00:25:04,497 changes into their costume, 415 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,599 and lets them express themselves in human form. 416 00:25:20,246 --> 00:25:23,298 A series of noble ladies, Princes, 417 00:25:23,834 --> 00:25:26,138 and maidens inhabit Vi's body. 418 00:25:27,022 --> 00:25:28,886 But none has a message for Khue. 419 00:25:31,237 --> 00:25:32,547 Until, at last, 420 00:25:33,138 --> 00:25:35,158 a second general arrives. 421 00:25:39,491 --> 00:25:41,743 It's the Commander of Tu n Tranh, 422 00:25:41,883 --> 00:25:43,688 a figure famous for fighting back 423 00:25:43,769 --> 00:25:46,431 a Mongol invasion in the 13th century. 424 00:25:54,131 --> 00:25:56,375 He summons Khue to come to the altar. 425 00:26:37,843 --> 00:26:40,618 So, he gave me a blessing 426 00:26:40,685 --> 00:26:43,772 that I'm going to meet a person, 427 00:26:43,833 --> 00:26:45,995 with good, with a kind heart. 428 00:26:46,659 --> 00:26:48,583 And, will get married. 429 00:26:49,332 --> 00:26:50,112 Yes. 430 00:26:50,232 --> 00:26:51,511 That's, the blessing I got. 431 00:26:52,174 --> 00:26:55,043 He give you any idea how long it's gonna be before this happens? 432 00:26:55,549 --> 00:26:57,642 Maybe soon, I hope. 433 00:26:58,965 --> 00:27:00,235 Okay we'll see. 434 00:27:00,296 --> 00:27:01,135 We'll see. 435 00:27:03,216 --> 00:27:05,390 They gonna ask me to finish bottom up. 436 00:27:06,285 --> 00:27:08,388 -Bottoms up. -So that I can get married. 437 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:09,993 Okay. 438 00:27:26,752 --> 00:27:30,322 Gods and the souls of ancestors all mix and mingle 439 00:27:31,392 --> 00:27:34,207 flowing through the tradition of Dao Mau. 440 00:27:36,693 --> 00:27:37,687 For the believers, 441 00:27:38,060 --> 00:27:41,774 the boundary between the eternal and our mortal world is thin 442 00:27:42,456 --> 00:27:43,430 and porous. 443 00:27:45,635 --> 00:27:47,939 The appearance of these gods on earth, 444 00:27:48,419 --> 00:27:49,217 it's not a miracle. 445 00:27:50,396 --> 00:27:51,552 It's an everyday occurrence. 446 00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:55,451 Like calling up an old friend. 447 00:28:00,135 --> 00:28:02,175 We gonna have to give all this money back before we leave? 448 00:28:02,496 --> 00:28:03,257 No. 449 00:28:03,787 --> 00:28:05,423 You can keep this, it's lucky. 450 00:28:05,814 --> 00:28:07,643 About 60 grand here. 451 00:28:12,233 --> 00:28:14,925 Many believers turn to the gods in times of need. 452 00:28:16,922 --> 00:28:18,943 Jesus came to Judea when the Jews 453 00:28:19,004 --> 00:28:21,055 were under the thumb of Roman occupation. 454 00:28:22,152 --> 00:28:23,705 Thousands of years later, 455 00:28:25,914 --> 00:28:27,695 some say he came again, 456 00:28:28,095 --> 00:28:29,914 this time to Africa. 457 00:28:33,458 --> 00:28:37,034 Shashamane, Ethiopia is a Rastafari settlement 458 00:28:37,095 --> 00:28:40,274 more than 7000 miles from Jamaica. 459 00:28:42,793 --> 00:28:46,243 Donisha Prendergast, activist, documentarian, 460 00:28:46,396 --> 00:28:49,282 and granddaughter of reggae legend Bob Marley... 461 00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:50,774 Thank you. 462 00:28:50,973 --> 00:28:53,470 is here to learn about the Rastafari belief 463 00:28:53,531 --> 00:28:56,930 that the late Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie 464 00:28:56,991 --> 00:28:59,263 was a reincarnation of Jesus. 465 00:28:59,769 --> 00:29:01,765 # Babylon is falling, 466 00:29:02,767 --> 00:29:05,124 Ethiopia she is calling. # 467 00:29:05,195 --> 00:29:07,547 Meeting her today is Sydney Salmon, 468 00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:12,759 a Jamaican Rastafarian who now calls Shashamane home. 469 00:29:12,820 --> 00:29:16,314 Welcome, welcome, welcome home, welcome home, welcome home. 470 00:29:17,063 --> 00:29:18,990 You know many people think that 471 00:29:19,406 --> 00:29:20,722 Rastafari is just 472 00:29:21,148 --> 00:29:22,053 Bob Marley, 473 00:29:22,521 --> 00:29:23,380 ganja, 474 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:24,831 Reggae music. 475 00:29:24,904 --> 00:29:25,610 Yes. 476 00:29:26,045 --> 00:29:26,796 So, tell me, 477 00:29:27,243 --> 00:29:29,099 what is it about Shashamane, 478 00:29:29,173 --> 00:29:30,723 why do you find yourself here? 479 00:29:31,255 --> 00:29:35,076 You know, Shashamane is the Mecca of Rastafari, you know. 480 00:29:35,137 --> 00:29:38,046 We can't talk about Rastafari as a movement... 481 00:29:38,189 --> 00:29:38,617 Yes. 482 00:29:38,689 --> 00:29:40,757 without talking about Marcus Mosiah Garvey. 483 00:29:40,817 --> 00:29:41,779 Yes, I... 484 00:29:42,477 --> 00:29:44,595 The story starts in 1920 485 00:29:44,725 --> 00:29:47,350 with the Jamaican publisher and political activist, 486 00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:48,874 Marcus Garvey. 487 00:29:48,935 --> 00:29:51,228 Marcus Garvey is like John the Baptist, 488 00:29:51,524 --> 00:29:54,149 you know, the first man who come and spoke to us. 489 00:29:54,209 --> 00:29:56,342 He said, 'Africans need to see their God 490 00:29:56,403 --> 00:29:57,846 through African spectacles.' 491 00:29:58,282 --> 00:30:01,367 Garvey believed that people of African descent, 492 00:30:01,830 --> 00:30:05,343 dispersed by slavery and tyrannized by colonialism, 493 00:30:05,679 --> 00:30:09,000 needed leaders, both political and spiritual, 494 00:30:09,362 --> 00:30:10,999 made in their own image. 495 00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:13,536 He wrote... 496 00:30:13,936 --> 00:30:14,941 'Look to Africa 497 00:30:16,159 --> 00:30:18,159 when a black king shall be crowned,' 498 00:30:19,614 --> 00:30:22,341 'for the day of deliverance is near.' 499 00:30:38,361 --> 00:30:39,506 Ten years later, 500 00:30:39,824 --> 00:30:43,021 the Ethiopian nobleman Rastafari Mekonnen 501 00:30:43,142 --> 00:30:45,667 was crowned Emperor of Ethiopia, 502 00:30:46,236 --> 00:30:48,185 and took the name Haile Selassie. 503 00:30:49,881 --> 00:30:52,857 88 years ago when his majesty was coronated... 504 00:30:52,918 --> 00:30:54,697 -Yes. -He changed history. 505 00:30:54,758 --> 00:30:55,479 Yes. 506 00:30:55,814 --> 00:30:58,971 So from the jump His Majesty was about African unity. 507 00:30:59,032 --> 00:30:59,824 Unity. 508 00:31:01,271 --> 00:31:04,303 Many Jamaicans, living under British colonial rule, 509 00:31:04,364 --> 00:31:08,046 were inspired by Selassie's resistance to European invaders. 510 00:31:08,663 --> 00:31:10,769 And saw him as Garvey's redeemer. 511 00:31:11,735 --> 00:31:14,213 Some pronounced him a reincarnation of Jesus, 512 00:31:15,123 --> 00:31:17,653 and the Rastafari faith was born. 513 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,921 To some people God mean different things. 514 00:31:21,572 --> 00:31:22,911 Well, the first thing we know 515 00:31:22,972 --> 00:31:25,049 that the bible teaches that God is a spirit. 516 00:31:26,004 --> 00:31:27,025 But this spirit, 517 00:31:27,322 --> 00:31:29,684 manifested himself, 518 00:31:30,164 --> 00:31:30,980 as a man. 519 00:31:31,134 --> 00:31:32,238 As a human being. 520 00:31:33,930 --> 00:31:36,871 Selassie was an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian 521 00:31:37,577 --> 00:31:39,901 and never claimed to be divine. 522 00:31:40,764 --> 00:31:42,757 But when he set aside Shashamane 523 00:31:42,818 --> 00:31:44,832 as a homeland for dispersed Africans, 524 00:31:44,893 --> 00:31:47,944 it bolstered his status as a god for the Rastafari. 525 00:31:48,135 --> 00:31:49,754 He was the only African king 526 00:31:49,815 --> 00:31:51,323 who came and stretched out his hand. 527 00:31:51,670 --> 00:31:52,209 Yeah. 528 00:31:52,270 --> 00:31:54,649 Gave us 500 acres of land. 529 00:31:54,709 --> 00:31:56,987 Yes, so I give thanks for being here. 530 00:31:57,816 --> 00:31:59,172 Long live Marcus Garvey. 531 00:31:59,233 --> 00:32:02,043 Long live the spirit of Rastafari and repatriation 532 00:32:02,643 --> 00:32:03,770 to the homeland, 533 00:32:04,650 --> 00:32:07,601 with my God and my King beside me, you know. 534 00:32:10,794 --> 00:32:13,254 People of many faiths yearn to reach out 535 00:32:13,315 --> 00:32:15,342 and touch the divine here on Earth. 536 00:32:15,868 --> 00:32:18,975 But divinity does not only manifest in human form. 537 00:32:19,908 --> 00:32:22,957 Catholics believe they can still make contact with Jesus 538 00:32:23,365 --> 00:32:25,401 through the objects he left behind. 539 00:32:41,498 --> 00:32:45,332 I've come to Paris to visit one of the most famous cathedrals 540 00:32:46,519 --> 00:32:48,483 in the entire world. 541 00:32:53,996 --> 00:32:55,062 Notre Dame. 542 00:33:05,951 --> 00:33:09,368 More than 13 million people come here every year. 543 00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:13,813 Yet only a fraction of them knows that these vaulted ceilings 544 00:33:14,369 --> 00:33:16,288 house one of the most precious 545 00:33:16,551 --> 00:33:18,225 and closely guarded relics 546 00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:20,145 in all Christendom. 547 00:33:23,487 --> 00:33:25,277 The Crown of Thorns. 548 00:33:27,379 --> 00:33:30,780 I've been granted special access to see the crown up-close, 549 00:33:31,243 --> 00:33:35,335 and learn more about what the faithful see in this sacred object. 550 00:33:36,995 --> 00:33:39,160 Father Denis Dupont-Fauville 551 00:33:39,467 --> 00:33:41,167 is one of its curators. 552 00:33:42,830 --> 00:33:43,526 This... 553 00:33:45,402 --> 00:33:46,196 this is it? 554 00:33:46,786 --> 00:33:47,553 This is it. 555 00:33:47,660 --> 00:33:50,202 This is very rare to show it like that. 556 00:33:52,623 --> 00:33:56,119 It's been the prized possession of the Catholic Church in France 557 00:33:56,279 --> 00:33:58,290 for almost 800 years. 558 00:34:00,134 --> 00:34:02,471 Of course, if it's the genuine article, 559 00:34:02,784 --> 00:34:04,457 it's far older than that. 560 00:34:05,959 --> 00:34:09,443 The crown which is made of reeds, of herbs, of weeds... 561 00:34:09,504 --> 00:34:09,989 Mm-mm. 562 00:34:10,109 --> 00:34:13,084 And they put it in this... 563 00:34:13,860 --> 00:34:15,975 circle of glass, actually, 564 00:34:16,346 --> 00:34:18,025 with gold around there. 565 00:34:18,335 --> 00:34:21,254 And they added a few gold wires 566 00:34:21,315 --> 00:34:22,417 to maintain it. 567 00:34:22,477 --> 00:34:26,065 Oh, then the actual reeds are held together now... 568 00:34:26,126 --> 00:34:27,698 Yes. With these little gold wires. 569 00:34:27,758 --> 00:34:31,195 Yes, and then they put this glass thing and the sealed it 570 00:34:31,945 --> 00:34:35,285 just to preserve it from air, from pollution, from contact. 571 00:34:35,852 --> 00:34:39,657 But what we call the crown of thorns was actually... 572 00:34:40,353 --> 00:34:42,271 sort of a helmet of thorns. 573 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,402 And so they, on this circle they 574 00:34:45,778 --> 00:34:47,689 made a helmet with the thorns 575 00:34:48,095 --> 00:34:49,755 and then they set it on the head. 576 00:34:49,815 --> 00:34:52,182 That was really horrible. 577 00:34:54,995 --> 00:34:56,049 The gospels say 578 00:34:56,110 --> 00:34:59,445 that when Jesus was carrying his cross to Golgotha, 579 00:35:00,082 --> 00:35:03,533 Roman soldiers mocked him as the 'King of the Jews' 580 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,194 and placed a crown of thorns 581 00:35:06,566 --> 00:35:07,577 on his head. 582 00:35:08,954 --> 00:35:10,215 I have this question for you. 583 00:35:10,276 --> 00:35:13,231 Yes. France, that's a long way from Golgotha. 584 00:35:13,292 --> 00:35:15,139 Yes, that's a long story. 585 00:35:15,220 --> 00:35:17,879 So Helen, who was the mother of the Emperor, 586 00:35:18,129 --> 00:35:21,183 took it from Jerusalem to Constantinople in the 4th Century. 587 00:35:22,342 --> 00:35:24,860 The Roman Emperor Constantine's mother 588 00:35:25,121 --> 00:35:26,848 had converted to Christianity, 589 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,548 and claimed the crown as a key symbol 590 00:35:30,609 --> 00:35:32,700 of Jesus's suffering on the cross. 591 00:35:35,067 --> 00:35:37,449 And then nearly 1000 years 592 00:35:37,556 --> 00:35:40,132 the crown stayed in Constantinople. 593 00:35:40,486 --> 00:35:41,875 Then there was the war, 594 00:35:41,936 --> 00:35:44,723 but the Emperor had no money to pay the army. 595 00:35:44,973 --> 00:35:46,793 So, to get the money for his army, 596 00:35:47,723 --> 00:35:50,370 he put the crown in loan in Venice. 597 00:35:50,582 --> 00:35:51,749 They swapped it. 598 00:35:52,050 --> 00:35:53,530 He loaned the crown. 599 00:35:53,844 --> 00:35:55,826 And when the King of France learned that, 600 00:35:56,084 --> 00:35:57,961 King Louis, he say, 'It's a shame.' 601 00:35:58,182 --> 00:36:00,556 So, I give the money for the army, 602 00:36:00,939 --> 00:36:04,398 and I get the crown in a safe place, that's France.' 603 00:36:04,578 --> 00:36:05,346 Okay. 604 00:36:05,561 --> 00:36:10,623 So in 1239 it arrived in France. 605 00:36:10,756 --> 00:36:11,229 Uh-huh. 606 00:36:11,444 --> 00:36:14,959 And when King Louis welcomed this crown in Paris, 607 00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:17,889 he went out of the city with bare feet, 608 00:36:18,374 --> 00:36:19,821 only a shirt on him, 609 00:36:20,327 --> 00:36:23,453 and he said, 'Well, I'm the most powerful king on earth, 610 00:36:23,982 --> 00:36:26,729 but I'm nothing in comparison to the true King. 611 00:36:27,292 --> 00:36:28,687 'My crown is of gold, 612 00:36:29,081 --> 00:36:32,150 but his crown is the true one. It was made of thorns.' 613 00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:35,150 So it was very, very moving from this man 614 00:36:35,211 --> 00:36:37,181 who was the most powerful on earth at the time. 615 00:36:37,869 --> 00:36:38,682 You know... 616 00:36:38,743 --> 00:36:43,006 And the money he gave was one full year of France's budget. 617 00:36:43,724 --> 00:36:45,664 You can imagine it was tremendous. 618 00:36:45,725 --> 00:36:46,872 Quite a bit of money. 619 00:36:47,786 --> 00:36:49,758 So, the amount that was paid, 620 00:36:50,134 --> 00:36:53,439 probably opened the doorway for a lot of fake stuff. 621 00:36:53,699 --> 00:36:59,246 Well, you can never be sure 100% they are the true ones. 622 00:36:59,496 --> 00:37:01,877 But in this case, 623 00:37:02,124 --> 00:37:04,765 it was analysed a little bit a few years ago, 624 00:37:05,141 --> 00:37:06,753 so, we are certain 625 00:37:07,343 --> 00:37:11,906 that is the actual crown which was shown to Helen. 626 00:37:12,359 --> 00:37:15,327 So if there is one in the world, it's this one. 627 00:37:16,343 --> 00:37:17,651 I know you said that 628 00:37:18,705 --> 00:37:22,412 if there is a crown of thorns, this is it. 629 00:37:22,529 --> 00:37:23,141 Yes. 630 00:37:23,989 --> 00:37:25,594 But what if it's not it? 631 00:37:27,472 --> 00:37:30,949 Well if it really touched Christ of course it is obvious, 632 00:37:31,308 --> 00:37:33,276 but even if it's not the true one, 633 00:37:33,786 --> 00:37:38,469 it's a way of remembering, okay he really was on earth. 634 00:37:38,530 --> 00:37:39,713 He was a true man. 635 00:37:39,774 --> 00:37:41,061 He could bear that, 636 00:37:41,504 --> 00:37:43,284 he could have that on his very head. 637 00:37:43,780 --> 00:37:46,908 And this is no story, this is not a tale 638 00:37:46,969 --> 00:37:48,764 or a symbol or an abstraction. 639 00:37:48,959 --> 00:37:50,176 This is history. 640 00:37:50,237 --> 00:37:52,506 This is concrete, we can touch it. 641 00:37:53,557 --> 00:37:54,275 You know. 642 00:37:54,689 --> 00:37:55,399 Got you. 643 00:38:03,077 --> 00:38:04,951 Today is the first Friday of the month, 644 00:38:06,033 --> 00:38:08,341 when the crown is put on public display. 645 00:38:13,963 --> 00:38:17,007 People from all over the world come to attend mass 646 00:38:18,041 --> 00:38:19,517 and get close to the relic. 647 00:38:24,031 --> 00:38:25,304 By so doing, 648 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,957 they believe they are getting closer to Jesus. 649 00:38:40,610 --> 00:38:43,736 People come there with their sufferings, 650 00:38:44,277 --> 00:38:45,389 with their hopes. 651 00:38:47,361 --> 00:38:50,851 And they come to this crown, they come to Christ actually; 652 00:38:52,184 --> 00:38:54,831 and say, 'Okay, you suffered, you hoped. 653 00:38:56,258 --> 00:38:59,247 I suffer, I hope. I want to join with you.' 654 00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:01,710 So that's very, very deep. 655 00:39:02,714 --> 00:39:05,279 Simple in a way but very, very moving. 656 00:39:16,528 --> 00:39:19,445 Holy relics are symbols of the divine here on earth. 657 00:39:21,289 --> 00:39:25,471 As such, they can and do fall under the control of people 658 00:39:25,558 --> 00:39:28,749 who would use them for earthly power. 659 00:39:30,863 --> 00:39:33,822 But for those who are seeking spiritual strength, 660 00:39:34,924 --> 00:39:37,729 relics act as a beacon, 661 00:39:39,103 --> 00:39:41,337 a beacon of faith, that guide them 662 00:39:42,026 --> 00:39:43,764 through the distractions 663 00:39:44,309 --> 00:39:45,882 of this mortal realm 664 00:39:46,518 --> 00:39:47,488 to a more 665 00:39:49,179 --> 00:39:51,282 direct connection with God. 666 00:39:56,490 --> 00:39:59,631 Religions often form around divinely inspired figures, 667 00:40:01,092 --> 00:40:04,474 Moses, Mohammed, The Buddha. 668 00:40:05,392 --> 00:40:07,778 Most people are only aware of one faith 669 00:40:07,839 --> 00:40:09,679 where God took human form, 670 00:40:10,006 --> 00:40:10,756 Christianity. 671 00:40:12,517 --> 00:40:13,661 But there is another. 672 00:40:14,829 --> 00:40:16,916 This divine person may be the key 673 00:40:16,977 --> 00:40:20,067 to understanding the power of Gods on earth. 674 00:40:30,702 --> 00:40:31,775 I've come to London 675 00:40:33,618 --> 00:40:36,447 to visit the Shri Swaminarayan Temple. 676 00:40:43,676 --> 00:40:47,370 It's dedicated to the Swaminarayan sect of the Hindu faith. 677 00:40:53,445 --> 00:40:54,706 I've been granted an audience 678 00:40:54,767 --> 00:40:57,287 with one of the senior spiritual leaders of the group... 679 00:40:57,894 --> 00:41:00,055 Thank you for having this conversation with me. 680 00:41:00,668 --> 00:41:02,567 Sadhu Paramtattvadas. 681 00:41:03,526 --> 00:41:06,187 He and millions of his fellow devotees 682 00:41:06,248 --> 00:41:09,520 believe that the supreme god of Hinduism, 683 00:41:09,714 --> 00:41:10,525 Brahman, 684 00:41:10,803 --> 00:41:14,259 came to earth as a human, just over 200 years ago. 685 00:41:17,612 --> 00:41:19,138 Tell me the story of God on Earth, 686 00:41:19,950 --> 00:41:21,093 the Hindu God on Earth. 687 00:41:21,368 --> 00:41:24,202 For me, I mean there are many gods. 688 00:41:24,371 --> 00:41:25,692 I thought there was one? 689 00:41:25,866 --> 00:41:27,462 There is one supreme entity. 690 00:41:28,420 --> 00:41:31,078 And that entity can take many forms. 691 00:41:31,354 --> 00:41:34,273 So for me, as a, as a monk, 692 00:41:34,381 --> 00:41:36,328 that would be Bhagwan Swaminarayan. 693 00:41:36,675 --> 00:41:40,763 For me, he is the supreme, ultimate entity. 694 00:41:41,088 --> 00:41:43,262 For me, he is god. 695 00:41:43,811 --> 00:41:45,862 Swaminarayan Hindus believe 696 00:41:45,923 --> 00:41:48,198 that God was born in human form 697 00:41:48,259 --> 00:41:50,757 in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh, 698 00:41:51,137 --> 00:41:53,112 in 1781. 699 00:41:53,721 --> 00:41:57,238 He manifested on earth, as a normal human being, 700 00:41:57,587 --> 00:41:59,753 through a mother and a father, 701 00:42:00,072 --> 00:42:01,922 to dispel the darkness of ignorance, 702 00:42:01,983 --> 00:42:04,277 to help elevate humankind, 703 00:42:04,757 --> 00:42:06,762 to a higher moral level. 704 00:42:08,611 --> 00:42:11,102 At the age of 11, after his parents passed away, 705 00:42:12,904 --> 00:42:13,714 alone, 706 00:42:14,553 --> 00:42:15,314 barefooted, 707 00:42:16,023 --> 00:42:16,923 open-chested, 708 00:42:17,698 --> 00:42:21,772 with nothing except a utensil to drink from, 709 00:42:21,934 --> 00:42:22,987 a small scripture, 710 00:42:23,413 --> 00:42:24,342 and a loincloth. 711 00:42:26,495 --> 00:42:27,846 Chose this journey 712 00:42:28,024 --> 00:42:29,592 of travelling across India, 713 00:42:30,689 --> 00:42:33,243 and he travelled 12,000 kilometres, 714 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,150 including spending three years across the Himalayas, 715 00:42:36,211 --> 00:42:38,186 alone through jungles, 716 00:42:39,072 --> 00:42:42,726 across mountains, treacherous, climates and conditions. 717 00:42:47,243 --> 00:42:48,252 As he travelled, 718 00:42:48,736 --> 00:42:52,132 stories of his power and divinity began to spread. 719 00:42:54,659 --> 00:42:57,468 In one such tale, he arrived at a village 720 00:42:57,529 --> 00:42:59,862 that was being terrorized by a lion. 721 00:43:00,421 --> 00:43:02,605 The village priest warned him away, 722 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,909 but Swaminarayan refused to go. 723 00:43:06,589 --> 00:43:10,059 That night he faced down the lion. 724 00:43:11,834 --> 00:43:13,097 When the village awoke, 725 00:43:13,417 --> 00:43:15,984 the lion looked more like a lamb. 726 00:43:16,955 --> 00:43:19,780 Calmly lying at the Swami's feet. 727 00:43:21,364 --> 00:43:22,825 The villagers knew then 728 00:43:23,148 --> 00:43:26,241 that this young man was no ordinary human. 729 00:43:30,311 --> 00:43:32,356 He spent seven years along this journey, 730 00:43:32,773 --> 00:43:35,345 to see the religious landscape of India, 731 00:43:35,413 --> 00:43:38,115 and see where he could find those... 732 00:43:38,814 --> 00:43:41,398 souls that he wanted to bring to perfection. 733 00:43:41,795 --> 00:43:42,974 The 11-year-old... 734 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,824 who walked the length and breadth of India, 735 00:43:47,214 --> 00:43:49,355 and became supreme. 736 00:43:50,333 --> 00:43:51,490 -No. -No. 737 00:43:51,551 --> 00:43:54,181 He was eternally supreme, he is God. 738 00:43:55,712 --> 00:43:57,853 He doesn't become God, he was God. 739 00:43:57,914 --> 00:43:59,709 And is God and always will be God. 740 00:44:00,003 --> 00:44:00,896 Always was? 741 00:44:01,061 --> 00:44:02,623 Always was, and always will be. 742 00:44:02,776 --> 00:44:06,683 That's the, the very essence of having eternal supreme entity. 743 00:44:07,254 --> 00:44:10,408 Just as Jesus was God on earth, 744 00:44:10,701 --> 00:44:12,944 Bhagwan Swaminarayan was God on earth. 745 00:44:15,635 --> 00:44:17,440 Because he grew up as a normal child, 746 00:44:17,501 --> 00:44:19,831 but there were still miracles happening all around him. 747 00:44:20,678 --> 00:44:22,046 He was bringing things to life, 748 00:44:22,157 --> 00:44:24,357 he was protecting people, saving people 749 00:44:24,778 --> 00:44:28,019 throughout his life there were lots of miracles. 750 00:44:30,262 --> 00:44:31,883 But in our traditions, 751 00:44:32,243 --> 00:44:35,339 the miracles don't have as much spiritual importance. 752 00:44:37,331 --> 00:44:38,255 They don't... 753 00:44:38,711 --> 00:44:40,202 prove him as God. 754 00:44:41,334 --> 00:44:42,055 He is. 755 00:44:42,683 --> 00:44:46,164 How is the human condition helped 756 00:44:46,445 --> 00:44:48,375 by a God... 757 00:44:49,565 --> 00:44:51,027 being here among us? 758 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,653 Is God not powerful enough 759 00:44:54,127 --> 00:44:57,193 to exact his power from heaven? 760 00:44:57,910 --> 00:45:01,676 Bhagwan Swaminarayan explains that his manifestation, 761 00:45:02,009 --> 00:45:03,315 taking on a human form, 762 00:45:03,904 --> 00:45:06,022 was to help countless souls 763 00:45:06,542 --> 00:45:07,928 eradicate their ignorance, 764 00:45:08,533 --> 00:45:10,914 and elevate them to spiritual perfection. 765 00:45:13,131 --> 00:45:16,031 I'm... I'm trying my best to absorb. 766 00:45:16,561 --> 00:45:18,342 So what you're saying, basically, 767 00:45:18,403 --> 00:45:20,096 it's a way of leading by example. 768 00:45:21,066 --> 00:45:24,104 Yes, I think it's immensely powerful. 769 00:45:24,849 --> 00:45:27,183 What if Jesus was present on earth now? 770 00:45:30,003 --> 00:45:30,844 Amongst us. 771 00:45:32,021 --> 00:45:32,785 Rather than... 772 00:45:33,455 --> 00:45:35,744 interpreting scriptures in different ways, 773 00:45:35,805 --> 00:45:37,531 we have a person who's speaking to us. 774 00:45:38,258 --> 00:45:41,015 It's a much more direct relationship. 775 00:45:41,837 --> 00:45:43,746 What more powerful, 776 00:45:44,109 --> 00:45:47,787 and direct form of revelation could there be than God himself 777 00:45:48,263 --> 00:45:50,410 appearing on earth and saying, 778 00:45:51,470 --> 00:45:52,163 here I am. 779 00:46:22,580 --> 00:46:23,745 It seems to me, 780 00:46:25,008 --> 00:46:27,457 we yearn for God to walk among us because, 781 00:46:27,518 --> 00:46:31,136 we need a living example of what it means to be divine. 782 00:46:34,358 --> 00:46:37,785 A God in human form can show us the way through hard times. 783 00:46:39,556 --> 00:46:41,178 Help us make tough choices. 784 00:46:42,925 --> 00:46:45,228 Show us how to love and respect one another, 785 00:46:46,164 --> 00:46:48,244 when it seems the hardest thing to do. 786 00:46:59,456 --> 00:47:00,981 Just because we are mortal, 787 00:47:01,524 --> 00:47:04,831 doesn't mean we can't strive to live as God would. 57172

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