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1
00:00:01,300 --> 00:00:03,569
- Is this us starting now?
- Well, we can.
2
00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:05,720
You know, let's start.
3
00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:09,920
Right.
[CLEARS THROAT]
4
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:16,109
What was the question?
5
00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:17,429
[LAUGHTER]
6
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:18,920
I'm waiting on you.
7
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,789
My name is Terri Hooley,
8
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,029
born and bred in Belfast,
9
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:26,469
the centre of the universe.
10
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,480
The centre of my universe, anyway.
11
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,560
A lovely, lovely Belfast concert.
12
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,600
In the '60s,
The Rolling Stones came.
13
00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,189
The Beatles came.
14
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,829
Jimi Hendrix.
15
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,109
I met Jimi, great guy.
16
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:46,509
# Why don't you smile now? #
17
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,509
Dylan came to Belfast in May '65,
was it?
18
00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,469
And I got my audience with Bob.
19
00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:54,029
- Want a light then?
- Huh?
20
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,480
That's just... it's just we were
on the circuit.
21
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,829
You know, you played Liverpool,
Belfast,
22
00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,949
Dublin, back to London.
23
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,309
# ...love didn't get you far #
24
00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:07,320
# Why don't you smile now? #
25
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,480
And then the Troubles came.
26
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,229
And I couldn't believe how quickly
27
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,869
my lovely city became divided.
28
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,480
I really couldn't.
29
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,029
Everything died.
30
00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:26,680
[DOG BARKS]
31
00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,029
Was there one event that really
sticks out for you, a moment like,
32
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:38,709
"We're never getting it back?"
33
00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,109
Was it... was it... was it...?
Bloody Friday.
34
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,680
Bloody Friday.
35
00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,749
To see people with shovels
36
00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,920
shovelling up arms and legs
and putting them into bin bags.
37
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,800
That was pretty disgusting,
so it was.
38
00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,880
I was going to buy a record,
actually.
39
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,789
And next thing...
40
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,800
...a bomb went off near where I was
going to buy the record.
41
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,549
[MAN]: Get back now.
42
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,160
[SCREAMING]
43
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,560
[SCREAMING]
44
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,509
It's twenty past three
in the afternoon,
45
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,989
and for the last 20 minutes
Belfast has been rocked
46
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,229
by the biggest bombing offensive
seen in the city this year.
47
00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,869
All over the city,
plumes of smoke arose
48
00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:52,709
as explosions took place.
49
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,509
[EXPLOSION]
50
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,029
Bloody Friday, the worst ever
example of IRA terrorism.
51
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,120
Nine people killed
and more than 130 injured.
52
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,160
[WOMAN]: I do remember Bloody Friday.
53
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,869
You heard a couple of bombs go off
and you seen the puff of smoke
54
00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,069
and you sort of went, "Right,"
and then you carried on playing.
55
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,469
And then there was another one.
56
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:17,760
You went, "Another one?"
57
00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,869
You carried on playing,
then there was another one.
58
00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,349
You know, and you're sort of going,
"Oh, you know,
59
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:25,480
"this is different."
60
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,909
[TV]: Bombs exploded every minute
for 20 minutes
61
00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:33,720
in busy shopping areas
and a crowded bus terminal.
62
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,749
I was actually seven
when Bloody Friday happened.
63
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,829
The sky was black.
64
00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:41,469
It was like a scene from hell.
65
00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,909
And you could even smell
the acrid smell of the bombs.
66
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:46,640
[SIRENS WAIL]
67
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,029
It was indiscriminate.
68
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,189
Anyone, Catholic, Protestant,
whatever,
69
00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:53,400
could have become a victim.
70
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,629
Neighbours, those who had TVs,
71
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,520
the pictures started coming in.
72
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,189
Horrible scenes, horrific scenes.
73
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,880
Here in this bus station was one of
the worst incidents of all.
74
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:10,949
The bus station was crowded
75
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,960
when a bomb went off
without warning.
76
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,629
It didn't seem real,
what I was seeing on TV.
77
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,189
Felt like another place.
78
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,800
And yet it was only streets away.
79
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:25,349
It was... it was frightening.
80
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:26,629
It was very frightening.
81
00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,429
Certainly the elders
in the community were saying,
82
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,360
"This is an attack on us.
They're attacking Protestants."
83
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,189
How did you feel about the IRA
at that point?
84
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,189
That they were awful people,
85
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,800
to do that.
86
00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:48,429
You couldn't look at those pictures
and not be...
87
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,160
...horrified by what you saw.
88
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,909
I was in the IRA,
89
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,189
but wasn't involved
in Bloody Friday.
90
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,269
I knew nothing about it.
91
00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:13,709
I'd seen it on the news
like everyone else.
92
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,240
And that's the truth.
93
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,189
You couldn't justify it.
94
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,760
Catholics as well as Protestants
were blown up on that day.
95
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,669
It was awful, fucking awful,
96
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,909
all those poor people
getting blown up, I mean...
97
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,080
It was fucking not just awful,
it was embarrassing.
98
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,069
And is there, is there more emotion
in there,
99
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,149
rather... other than
just embarrassment?
100
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,389
Is there... Is there conflict
in there for you
101
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,160
when you... when you...?
102
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,789
At... Even now or at the time?
103
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,389
Well, there is now,
of course there is.
104
00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,029
At the time...
105
00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,709
I was 17 and 18,
106
00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,749
I was full of revolutionary vigour,
107
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,309
and it was just
a balls... a balls-up.
108
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,829
Did it make you question
being in the IRA?
109
00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:09,309
No.
110
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:10,669
But...
111
00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,469
...the whole tone of the war
112
00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,629
seemed to deteriorate
after Bloody Friday.
113
00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,949
It seemed to be a direction-changer
114
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,160
into a very dark place.
115
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:25,600
You know.
116
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,669
I was totally comfortable
with combatting the British Army.
117
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,269
But as things developed,
118
00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:37,989
it was republicans
who were sectarian.
119
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,680
And I mean, that's...
120
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,069
...that's indisputable, right?
121
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,029
I mean, there was Protestants killed
122
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,640
purely for the sake of the fact
that they were Protestants.
123
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,440
[MARCHING]
124
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:04,549
I didn't understand, you know,
125
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,669
exactly what had happened
on Bloody Friday,
126
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,029
but I knew my community,
my people, my city
127
00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,120
was being attacked again by the IRA.
128
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,549
There was a lot of talk about it.
I remember all the adults,
129
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,429
it was palpable hatred and anger,
you know what I mean?
130
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,589
Rest in the Lord,
131
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,229
and wait patiently for him.
132
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:31,949
Fret not myself because of him
who prospereth in his way,
133
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:37,120
because of the man
who bringeth wicked devices.
134
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:43,749
Ordinary peace-loving people
135
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,189
were queuing up to join
loyalist paramilitaries.
136
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,760
That galvanised support
for loyalist paramilitaries.
137
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,709
We needed to fight back
and this was our army.
138
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,600
[MAN SHOUTS ORDERS]
139
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,589
[TV]: It sounds like
a modern mafia,
140
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,589
but the UDA,
the Ulster Defence Association,
141
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,349
ostensibly exists
as a military force.
142
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,069
50,000 strong...
143
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,349
the biggest private army
Britain has ever seen.
144
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,709
Well, we intend to see that
the terrorists are stopped.
145
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,069
The security forces have obviously
failed to stop them.
146
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,469
We have no alternative but to try
and stop them ourselves.
147
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:19,760
This we will try to do.
148
00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,469
[TV]: Today's march, I was told,
is the beginning of
149
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,640
the Protestant backlash
and is a warning to the IRA.
150
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,349
The UDA started out in Belfast,
151
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,000
right, up the Shankill Road.
152
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,029
Some of the men got together
trying to protect their areas.
153
00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,909
Rather than go to bed
on Friday night,
154
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,909
the men would
patrol round the estate.
155
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,720
[BANGING AND WHISTLING]
156
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,269
They were vigilantes.
157
00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,320
I was one of them.
158
00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,469
My name's James Greer.
159
00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,920
I was 17 when I joined the UDA.
160
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,509
Guilty as charged.
161
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,149
But you got a gun when you were 17?
162
00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,680
I was in charge of guns
when I was 17.
163
00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,709
I have a granddaughter of 17,
by the way,
164
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,469
and I could not imagine
handing her a gun.
165
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,069
I could not imagine
handing her anything
166
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,680
other than a strawberry fucking
milkshake, to be honest.
167
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:27,989
But anyway...
168
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,749
Did not have a great home life.
169
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,349
I was probably regarded
as the low-hanging fruit,
170
00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,949
and people were whispering
in my ear, you know,
171
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:38,869
"If we don't stand up for ourselves,
172
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,349
"we're going to be
trampled under the ground."
173
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,309
And I'm thinking,
174
00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,949
"I don't want anybody tramping me
under the ground."
175
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,109
So I found myself, you know,
with my hand on the Bible
176
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,229
and a .38, an old Webley .38
in this hand,
177
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,069
and a guy holding a pre-prepared
statement in front of my face.
178
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,629
And I'm reading it off that
I swear to this and I swear to that
179
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,349
and I swear to the other thing
for God and Ulster,
180
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,109
and if I die in the battle
it's the will of God...
181
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,029
God has to be in there too.
182
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,589
And, er...
183
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,349
...there I was in the UDA.
184
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,869
I swear on my life...
185
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,069
I swear on my life...
186
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,229
...that I will defend
my appointed district...
187
00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,349
...that I will defend
my appointed district...
188
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,629
...against any invaders.
...against any invaders.
189
00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:19,829
It's all very serious.
190
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,469
These guys are sitting behind
the counter and you know yourself
191
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:23,829
these guys don't mess around.
192
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,869
Like, it's not as if they're
fucking going to kill a pussycat.
193
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,309
They'd fucking cut your throat
as quick as they'd look at you.
194
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,229
But what I didn't know
that particular night
195
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,749
and didn't learn until months
afterwards that I'd joined the UFF.
196
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,160
So I had been purposely duped.
197
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:40,709
In those early days
198
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,029
you were not even allowed to mention
the UFF either,
199
00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,469
because the UFF
was a military organisation
200
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,189
that done a lot of atrocities.
201
00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,589
It's like joining the Mafia,
202
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,000
in all honesty, it's pretty much
the same idea.
203
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,069
At the start it's all very well,
you know,
204
00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,989
you're sort of doing
stupid things like hijacking
205
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,509
and stuff like that.
206
00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,469
You know, then it goes on to
more serious things.
207
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,229
They'd hand you guns,
"Go down there
208
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,269
"and shoot that fucker there,
would you?"
209
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,709
You know, and then it's sort
of a position when you can't say no.
210
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,549
- You know?
- You're in.
211
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,469
You're in, you're in there.
212
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,469
As you all know,
the workers in the...
213
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,549
A lot of people would say
the paramilitaries
214
00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:20,949
were horrible, awful people
215
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,229
and Northern Ireland
would be a wonderful place
216
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,749
if they all went away.
217
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,229
But they weren't parachuted in
from a different country.
218
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,069
They didn't land from
an alien planet, you know?
219
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,549
They were brothers, they were
uncles, they were fathers.
220
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:35,400
They were my friends' fathers.
221
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,760
And they weren't bad people.
222
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,989
They weren't horrible people.
They did horrible things.
223
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,360
But why did they do those things?
224
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,549
[TV]: On either side of Shankill Road
225
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:54,229
all are Protestant.
226
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:55,989
On either side of Falls Road
227
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,349
all are Catholic.
228
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,349
Catholic, Protestant, Catholic,
229
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,240
Protestant, Catholic.
230
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,869
Why is it so difficult for boys
like you on the Protestant side
231
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,189
to meet and make friends
with boys on the Catholic side?
232
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,429
Because they don't want
to make friends with us.
233
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,269
There's times where we can't
walk up the road,
234
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,109
we're getting pulled.
235
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,669
We get a hiding, nothing's done
about it.
236
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,309
- Well, do you want to make friends with them?
- No.
237
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:21,800
Do not.
238
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,989
If you live in a segregated
community,
239
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,480
you're growing up in ignorance.
240
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,760
And ignorance just generates hate.
241
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,000
And hate begets hate
begets violence.
242
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,960
And that's what we did
to each other here.
243
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,549
[ARCHIVE]: In Belfast, the protection
of the military is called for
244
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:46,149
to get children safely to school
and home again.
245
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,549
Their school uniform clearly marks
them as the enemy to the Catholics
246
00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:51,269
on the other side of Crumlin Road.
247
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,149
I have a legal shotgun.
248
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,229
And should I have to carry it
up the Crumlin Road?
249
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,429
I do so to protect my child
250
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,549
because my child should have
the liberty to walk on British soil.
251
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:02,669
She was born British,
and British she'll remain
252
00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:04,469
till she dies and I die with her.
253
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,469
What about going on another road
rather than the Crumlin, Mary?
254
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,909
- No. - No.
- The Crumlin's our road.
255
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,709
The Crumlin's ours
and it's going to stay Protestant.
256
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,269
Aren't you afraid of the stones?
257
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:15,509
No, I'm not
258
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,709
because if I get hit with one,
I'd throw it back.
259
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,149
That's right, love.
260
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:20,749
[CHEERING]
261
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,109
I'll help you, love.
262
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,749
What if it's worse than stones?
263
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,749
Well, what if it is?
264
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,709
Can't WE get bottles
and make petrol bombs too?
265
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,280
Good for you, love,
and we'll help you to make them.
266
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,269
You only mix with people
on your own side.
267
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,229
The other side is portrayed
268
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,240
in your head and songs you sing
in the bar as the enemy.
269
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,309
And they are, you know,
in your head,
270
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,560
this horrible hatred is built up.
271
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:50,349
Bow your heads.
272
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,189
Even something as
innocent as a school assembly,
273
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,229
we used to make our own songs up
about...
274
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,389
The one "Give me oil in my lamp,"
275
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,229
we'd sing,
"Give me bullets in my gun,
276
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,789
"keep it firing,
give me bullets in my gun,
277
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,789
"I pray, give me bullets in my gun
and we'll shoot them, every one,
278
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:05,949
"the members of the IRA."
279
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,509
[CHEERING]
280
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:14,920
# Sing hosanna, sing hosanna, sing
hosanna to the King of kings... #
281
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,720
This is the Shankill Road,
the heartland of loyalism.
282
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,309
Where my heart and soul was forged.
283
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,229
[CAR HORN TOOTS]
284
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,709
Our whole world, our whole
environment was dictated to by,
285
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,429
you know, being loyalists and
Protestant and hating Catholics.
286
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,589
You know what I mean? It was in our
DNA from birth to hate Catholics.
287
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,149
We hated them with a passion,
so we did.
288
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,469
Every minute of our day
we despised them
289
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,389
and we wanted to see them suffer.
290
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,189
And I know that is harsh.
291
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,469
You know, I mean,
looking at it now it's crazy.
292
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,069
But when you're born in
that tribal environment
293
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,469
and your whole life is dominated
by the Troubles,
294
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,669
they were our enemies,
you know what I mean?
295
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,709
There was no getting away from that.
296
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,389
It's an ingrained survival strategy.
297
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,589
We can tell just by looking
at someone
298
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,069
if they're Catholic or Protestant.
299
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:08,709
And I remember doing that myself
300
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,309
when growing up as a kid
when I was in Belfast City Centre.
301
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,309
We always thought they were smelly,
so we did,
302
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,160
and we just knew,
"He looks like a Catholic."
303
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,789
Yeah, I'm a bit worried
I'm coming across as a mad, bigoted,
304
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,909
sectarian,
Catholic-hating madman here.
305
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:26,949
[HE LAUGHS]
306
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,469
But what I'm talking about is,
you know, that environment
307
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,549
that I grew up when I was young,
know what I mean,
308
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,189
when we get to talk about the later
years, hopefully I'll be able
309
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,429
to explain that my attitudes have
changed, you know.
310
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:37,869
You've gone on a journey, John.
311
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,149
- Yeah, exactly.
- It's partway in.
312
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:41,549
Right, OK.
313
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,680
It doesn't... it doesn't end
in the same place.
314
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,320
Yeah.
315
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,429
My name is John Chambers.
316
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,189
I was born and bred in Belfast.
317
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,229
I'm a peace-loving loyalist.
318
00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,949
And... Let me start that again.
319
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:01,309
[HE LAUGHS]
320
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,389
That's good.
321
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,389
I sound as if I'm on a game show.
322
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:05,789
[LAUGHTER]
323
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,469
My earliest memory is in hospital.
324
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:09,909
Um, I was in hospital quite a bit
325
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,800
when I was younger,
I had a bone disease.
326
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,749
Gradually my mum stopped visiting me
327
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,869
and I thought,
"That's a bit bizarre," you know.
328
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,909
No-one actually said anything
up to this point.
329
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,069
And then my grandmother sat us down
one day and she said, you know,
330
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,829
"I've got some news to tell you."
331
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,549
And we were like, "What?"
And she's like,
332
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,160
"I'm afraid your mum's died.
She died in a car crash."
333
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,589
You know, it's harsh,
but I didn't even miss her.
334
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,269
I know that sounds bad,
335
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,029
but because my grandmother was
taking such an active role
336
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,829
in our upbringing,
she was my mother,
337
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,109
basically, and my grandmother
all rolled into one
338
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,229
and I didn't miss having a mother
until I was much older
339
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,120
and learned the truth.
340
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,069
What is this place?
341
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,189
This is Glencairn.
342
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,589
This is where we moved,
late sixties, early seventies.
343
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,149
And our house was just here.
344
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,029
And I lived there with my dad
and my siblings.
345
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,549
The house is where the bonfire is.
346
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,360
Right where the bonfire is, yeah.
That was our house.
347
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,909
Glencairn is a great place
to live, you know what I mean?
348
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,189
As kids, we loved it, so we did.
349
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,040
- All right, mate?
- What's happening?
350
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:16,869
It was a brand-new estate,
but it was an ultra loyalist estate,
351
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,229
you know. Loyalists controlled
every aspect of it.
352
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,229
What is a loyalist?
353
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,029
[JOHN LAUGHS]
354
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,229
Er, good question.
355
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,029
A loyalist is a WASP,
356
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,229
a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant,
basically.
357
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,800
We're more British than the British,
you know what I mean?
358
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:35,869
Prouder, should I say,
than the British to be British.
359
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,829
Do you know they still stand
for the Queen in Northern Ireland?
360
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,469
All loyalists from Protestant clubs,
at the end of the night,
361
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,869
no matter how drunk or stoned
or wasted that you are,
362
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,269
when they play the Queen,
you have to stand up and salute.
363
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,789
If you don't do it, you're going
to get a beating or a hiding.
364
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,269
They take it very seriously.
365
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,509
[TV ANNOUNCER]: That brings us to the
end of our programmes on BBC One.
366
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,349
And I remember as a child, the BBC
every night used to play the Queen
367
00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:58,549
at the end of night, and we used
to stand up in the house
368
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,269
and salute the Queen
when they played it.
369
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,349
[TV]: For all of us here at
Broadcasting House,
370
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:03,909
wishing you goodnight.
371
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,869
We were that fanatical, you know,
we took it that seriously.
372
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,160
[MUSIC: "God Save The Queen"]
373
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,029
Me mammy, she would go,
374
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,960
"Jim, knock that TV off now.
375
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:26,989
"Jim!
376
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,480
"I told you to knock it off."
377
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,880
That national anthem
and that flag...
378
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,400
Just can't.
379
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,749
It means more to me than
just a song or a piece of cloth,
380
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,229
because it's one of the things, too,
381
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,229
that would have probably been on the
uniforms of the soldiers, you know,
382
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,509
even should it be small, it's there.
383
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,469
It's, "I'm your oppressor.
384
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,560
"I'm the one that's keeping
you down."
385
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,709
But one of the...
I'm not saying like...
386
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,600
...that, as I was growing up,
I didn't sort of, you know...
387
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,309
...sometimes see soldiers
and think,
388
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,320
"Mm, he's nice looking."
389
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,549
Because that is what happened to me
one day coming from school.
390
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,709
Literally, I had walked out
of the school gates
391
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,189
and I was walking home with friends
392
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,069
and stopped by the soldiers.
393
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,069
"OK, could we know your name?"
394
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,069
"Where are you coming from?"
395
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,749
I'm like, "You're seriously
asking me where I'm coming from?
396
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,469
"That's my school behind me.
397
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,829
"I'm wearing my uniform.
What, are you stupid or something?"
398
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,949
And while I'm being all, you know,
399
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,549
feisty and all this carry on,
400
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,149
the fella that was actually
asking me the questions,
401
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,469
he was a good looking dude.
402
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,389
And I'm kind of going,
403
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,549
"You're lovely."
404
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,669
And then I'm like, "Oh, Jesus, no.
Get yourself in check."
405
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,909
And literally had to think, "It
doesn't matter how good looking
406
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,989
"that... or gorgeous that boy is,
he's the enemy."
407
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,749
Because you understood the rules?
408
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,309
I understood the rules, aye.
409
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,469
And you understood what happened
if you broke them?
410
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:05,629
Mm.
411
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,389
Oh, Jesus, aye.
412
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,280
[DISCO MUSIC PLAYS]
413
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,149
[ARCHIVE]: These scenes are
a remarkable contrast
414
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,789
in a city of totally polarised
attitudes.
415
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,149
Here Catholic and Protestant girls
risk very unpleasant reprisals
416
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,149
to dance with British soldiers
in a makeshift disco
417
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,389
inside the Army barracks.
418
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,109
You're both Catholic girls
who've come for a night out
419
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:28,629
with British soldiers.
420
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,509
Isn't that a dangerous thing to do
in your circumstances?
421
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,069
It is, yes.
422
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,789
But we still take the risk.
423
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,189
We think it's worth it.
424
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,029
What do you think about the
soldiers? Do you like them or...?
425
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,560
Of course we like them very much.
426
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,749
You get to really do like them
427
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,560
when they start coming to the disco.
428
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,360
[DOG BARKS]
429
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,029
Soldier dolls.
430
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,200
That was the known term for them.
431
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:05,629
This is the lamppost where
432
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,429
a 19-year-old girl was tied up
last night
433
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,549
and jeered at by women and others,
434
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,589
after she'd had her head shaved
435
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,040
and she'd been tarred and feathered
all over her head...
436
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,000
...all because she'd been going out
with a British soldier.
437
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,629
They were left tied there
for the longest while
438
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,829
so that people could get
a good look at them,
439
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,269
totally shaming them
and humiliating them
440
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,589
and marking them
within the community...
441
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,800
this is... this is somebody
that fraternises with the enemy.
442
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,389
You were not only bringing shame
on yourself,
443
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,669
you were bringing it on the family.
444
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:40,989
What would you do if you found
445
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,989
your daughter going out
with a British soldier?
446
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,189
I would hand her out to the women
who took the girl last night.
447
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,509
Are you in favour of tarring
and feathering?
448
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,829
Wholeheartedly, yes,
I am in favour of it.
449
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,309
Are you in favour of it?
450
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,509
Definitely, yes.
451
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,429
And me, definitely.
You are in favour of it?
452
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,229
And all my friends are.
453
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,549
I do wrestle with it myself because,
you know, I had moments of my life
454
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:07,349
where I was completely in support
of the paramilitaries, you know,
455
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:11,069
because I felt that
they were my protector.
456
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:12,469
But also at the same time they were
457
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,469
doing what they were doing to
their own people,
458
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,029
that's the ultimate form of control,
keeping everybody
459
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,669
within their boundaries
and within their tribe.
460
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,800
They could be the good AND the bad.
461
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,400
The very bad.
462
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,280
Mm.
463
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,469
A widowed mother of ten children
was kidnapped from her home
464
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,309
here in the Davis Flats complex
on Belfast's Lower Falls Road.
465
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,389
On the evening of December 7th,
466
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,109
four women entered the home
of Mrs Jean McConville,
467
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,229
told her family that their mother
would be returned in half an hour
468
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,829
and then left with her.
469
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,240
Mrs McConville never returned home.
470
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,589
My name is Michael McConville.
471
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,749
I'm the son of Jean McConville,
472
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,349
and my mother was taken
473
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,160
from us by the IRA in 1972.
474
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,869
Er...
475
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,600
Sorry, it's really hard looking at
this here, to be honest with you.
476
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,960
Just seeing how young
everybody was, you know?
477
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,760
Er...
478
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,400
So this one here is me.
479
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,600
Dervi, Elizabeth.
480
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,469
My father was a Catholic,
481
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,029
my mother was a Protestant.
482
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,429
So it's what they say over here,
483
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,240
it's a mixed marriage.
484
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,080
And in 1970
we moved into the Divis Flats.
485
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,269
[ARCHIVE]: At the end of the Falls
Road is Divis Flats,
486
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,240
a citadel of 10,000 Catholics.
487
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,789
Divis Flats are a stronghold
of the Provisional IRA,
488
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,149
a stone fortress that gave them
both cover and escape routes
489
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,520
in their war against
the British Army.
490
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,469
My dad wasn't well for a good while.
491
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,629
He had cancer, so he had.
492
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,949
When he died, I thought that was the
worst thing
493
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,629
what could ever happen to me
and my brothers and sisters.
494
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,589
Little did I know that nine months
later
495
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,520
we'd have lost our mother as well.
496
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,429
How would you describe him,
your dad?
497
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:12,880
[MICHAEL'S DAUGHTER]: My dad...
498
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,229
Brave,
499
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,589
courageous,
500
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:18,720
caring.
501
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,200
Funny.
502
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,960
Loving.
503
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,989
And just really a heart of gold.
504
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,149
He's a kind wee soul, so he is,
505
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,680
who's just had...
506
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,069
...so much bad things happen
in his life.
507
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,760
He wouldn't let anyone go through
what he had to go through.
508
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:42,549
No matter what,
509
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,189
if I told him that something
may have happened to me,
510
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,869
I always knew that he would
protect me from that.
511
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,560
And I think that's what he wanted us
to feel, do you know?
512
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,000
Where do you think that stems from?
513
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,480
Mm...
514
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:01,629
Er,
515
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,760
probably from my granny
getting taken away.
516
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,509
[MICHAEL]: There was a shooting going
on that night
517
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,200
between the IRA
and the British soldiers.
518
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,069
And a soldier was injured
519
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,560
and my mother went to his aid.
520
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,629
Who was he, was he a...?
He was a British soldier
521
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,069
and, er,
522
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,680
she tried to help him.
523
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,309
Show an act of kindness
when someone was injured.
524
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,229
But, er,
525
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,709
the people of Divis Flats
didn't see it that way.
526
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,469
When I say the people of the
Divis Flats,
527
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,589
the IRA of the Divis Flats
didn't see it that way.
528
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,029
They sent someone round to write
529
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,869
a slogan across the door,
530
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,589
while we were all sleeping.
531
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,109
"Brit lovers" or
"Get out or else, soldier lovers".
532
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:52,749
I can't just remember what it was,
but it was one of them slogans
533
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,240
what they had across the front
of the flat.
534
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,760
And then the IRA took
our mother away.
535
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:03,309
I knew something bad was going to
happen,
536
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:04,709
I didn't realise at the time
537
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,240
that they were going to murder
my mother.
538
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:31,989
We had no parents,
539
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,680
we really had no-one
to look after us.
540
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,789
Don't get me wrong, there was a lot
of good people in the Divis Flats,
541
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,069
so there was,
542
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,309
and I would say they probably
were scared.
543
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,829
What were they scared of?
544
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,389
They were scared of the IRA.
545
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:46,749
There was nothing else.
546
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,749
They were scared of helping us
because the IRA didn't agree
547
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,520
with it. So they ruled
and they ruled with an iron fist.
548
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,789
Squeeze, one, two, release,
squeeze, one, two, release.
549
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,200
That gives you a burst of three
or four rounds at a time.
550
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,840
Would you ever, ever doubt
or question an order?
551
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,880
- In those days? - Yes.
- No.
552
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,989
You wouldn't have done that,
like, it was, you know...
553
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,160
That could have cost you your life.
554
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,549
And that was made pretty plain,
you know.
555
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,160
Sergeant Major, you'll take
number two patrol tonight.
556
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:34,389
When I was asked to do things,
557
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,869
I can remember, you know,
558
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,029
the excitement,
559
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,520
the butterflies in the stomach...
560
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,560
...like it was yesterday,
and that becomes addictive.
561
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,800
Do you know what I mean?
That adrenaline, maybe...
562
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,600
...rush that you get
because you're living on the edge...
563
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,640
...you know?
564
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,829
That day was
a day like any other day.
565
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,000
The Thursday,
five days after my 19th birthday.
566
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,120
Come home from work, got something
to eat, went out and had a pint.
567
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:18,109
And then me and my friend,
we were approached by two men
568
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,349
and these guys said,
"Come with us.
569
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,469
"We're going to do such and such
and such and such
570
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,669
"because of such and such
and such and such."
571
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,709
When you say "such and such
and such and such..."
572
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,600
Aye, that's what they call
redactions.
573
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,309
See, if your paper, scribble across
it, "Oh, it's a redacted statement."
574
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,029
You're not going to tell me this?
575
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,509
I am fucking not going to tell you
any more than
576
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,520
such and such and such and such.
577
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,509
But we went to this place,
which was a such and such place
578
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,069
and I met up
with the senior officer,
579
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,189
and he gave me a list of things
that I had to do
580
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,469
and said, "Right, get on with it."
581
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,120
What was on that list?
582
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,429
Where to plant the device,
583
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,109
what I was looking for
before I planted the device,
584
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,069
and...
585
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,349
...sort of specifics about time
586
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,909
and stuff like that.
587
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,549
So you knew it was a bomb, then?
588
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:13,989
Yeah.
589
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,309
Mm-hm.
590
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:16,709
How did you feel?
591
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,829
I just... That was just a Thursday,
type of thing.
592
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,669
That sounds a wee bit blasé, like.
593
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,240
The seventies was an awful time.
594
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,269
You know what I mean?
So I was in the middle.
595
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,589
I was in the thick of that.
So somebody said to me,
596
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,509
"You're going to go and be planting
this device here." You know,
597
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,549
he might as well have said, "Do you
want a cup of tea?" Like it was...
598
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:36,749
It didn't mean anything.
599
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,549
I just said, "OK, right.
That's it, no problem.
600
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:40,800
"Get on with."
601
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,909
It was primed,
602
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,429
and it was myself and another guy.
603
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,469
So I said, "Right, go in there
and do that
604
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,469
"and set it there
and blah, blah, blah."
605
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,149
And he says, "OK, no problem."
606
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,840
And he took about...
607
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,400
...I don't know, maybe five
or six steps and it ignited.
608
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,389
All I can remember was
like a big white ball,
609
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,640
and I was unsighted.
610
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,120
I remember going...
611
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,309
My face was all blood,
it was pissing out of me,
612
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,269
but I was all there, you know.
613
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,229
What injuries did your friend get?
614
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,720
Lost his arm.
615
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,149
Why did it go off?
616
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,760
Premature explosion, just.
617
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,149
There's...
618
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,280
...any God's amount of reasons,
you know.
619
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,589
And then the Army were everywhere.
620
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,640
They were on top of us,
they were waiting on us.
621
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,309
Can I ask, were you...
622
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,309
...were you willing,
623
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,949
were you willing to kill someone?
624
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,120
Yes.
625
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,789
That's why I was there.
626
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,749
And if I had to kill people,
I will kill people.
627
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,400
And that is not even a challenge
to me.
628
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,600
You know,
it's part of what I signed up for.
629
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,480
You went from being...
630
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,840
...a normal teenager to being someone
that was willing to murder?
631
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,389
Two easy steps type thing.
632
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,840
Mm.
633
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,400
Yeah.
634
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,709
You know, looking at me now
635
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,709
that I am
right out of my comfort zone.
636
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,240
- Yeah.
- Aye.
637
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,269
You've taken me to a bad place,
James.
638
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,309
Sorry.
639
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,520
It's all right. I'll get by,
you know what I mean?
640
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,869
It just takes you to a bad place,
you know, that you don't
641
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,749
really feel comfortable with.
642
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,949
But at the same time,
because you're not comfortable,
643
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,800
it doesn't mean that it's not there.
644
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,109
And I hate to ignore, you know,
645
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,149
the things that make me
uncomfortable
646
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,840
because they're important.
647
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,560
You know.
648
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,880
- Are we going to get another cup of tea here?
- Yeah, sure.
649
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,229
Fancy one now?
I would love one now.
650
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,160
I would kill you for a cup of tea.
651
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,989
You're always aware that, you know,
a bomb could go off at any time
652
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,760
in the city centre
or anywhere throughout Belfast.
653
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,069
The security presence was always
very prominent, you know.
654
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,309
There's always someone
with a gun within eyesight.
655
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,109
So you're always cautious,
know what I mean?
656
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,389
And, you know, you could see it
in people's faces,
657
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,869
you know, the suspicion
and the fear.
658
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,680
You know, I mean,
everyone had it at the time.
659
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,949
From my earliest age,
Belfast was a no-parking zone.
660
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,669
You couldn't park
your unattended car in town.
661
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,109
So my mum would keep me off school
662
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,589
so I could sit in the car while
she did her shopping, you know,
663
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,789
because you couldn't leave an
unattended vehicle
664
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,829
within the city centre. It might
have been a car bomb, so somebody
665
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,309
had to be in the passenger seat.
666
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,989
Or when you came back, the street
would be completely cleared
667
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,880
and your car would be on fire.
668
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,640
The Army would blow it up.
669
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,709
What my mum did was put her big,
fat, school kid in the...
670
00:34:37,720 --> 00:34:40,309
...just get in the passenger seat
with a bag of crisps
671
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,069
and a bottle of Coke and a comic,
672
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,229
and I'd be sitting there happy
for hours!
673
00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:46,760
"Go ahead, Mum!"
I got the day off school.
674
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,309
Move over to the right there.
675
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,749
When the bombing started happening
676
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,829
then the businesses were complaining
677
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,560
then they built a ring of steel...
678
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:04,480
...round the city centre
to stop people getting bombed.
679
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,789
You had gates and barriers that went
round the whole of the city
680
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,560
centre, and it was just something
that was part of your life.
681
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,909
I think it probably looks
like a bomb scare.
682
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,149
Is it? How many times has this
happened here?
683
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,229
Oh, dozens and dozens of times.
Has there ever actually been a bomb?
684
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:28,989
Oh, yes, yes.
685
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,669
Do you get fed up with it?
686
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,640
No, it's just a way of life.
687
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,909
The whole life of the city had been
sucked out of it.
688
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,680
All the nightlife was gone.
689
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,440
I mean, Jesus, people were going,
leaving the country.
690
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,749
I should think all the poets,
the painters and the performers
691
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,400
of music all just got up and left.
692
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,800
It was pretty scary.
693
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,880
[FIRE CRACKLES]
694
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:44,309
There are places in Belfast where
things have happened in my life
695
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,629
that I feel very uncomfortable
walking past.
696
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,149
Like Direct Wine Sales is
in the old building where I used
697
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,629
to work for Kodak, and I came out
one night and three gunmen
698
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,349
tried to grab me in the car
699
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,349
and these two guys,
they jumped in and saved my life
700
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,920
and I managed to get away.
701
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,429
That had happened to friends of mine
and they weren't seen again,
702
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:09,800
they were tortured.
703
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,389
I just thought, "Well, I'm going
to do something that I really want
704
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,280
"to do before they kill me."
705
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,680
And that was when I decided
I was going to set up a record shop.
706
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:31,269
It's an old building and we needed
to put windows in it and stuff.
707
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,040
And I decided we'd have a party
in it on a Sunday night.
708
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,389
So I painted up the toilet.
709
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,589
We painted it... I had an old can
of red paint and painted
710
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:44,909
the toilet seat red
711
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,669
because we couldn't
have young ladies coming round
712
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,709
and not having a decent toilet.
713
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:51,669
So that was my first priority.
714
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,509
And then we set up a music system
in it.
715
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,040
And we had a great party.
716
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,229
Terri's shop became a focal point.
717
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:02,789
It became a social thing to do,
and Terri loved that there.
718
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,029
You know, I went down to the shop,
you know, and met Terri
719
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,789
for the first time
and fucking loved him.
720
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,640
This bigger than life character.
721
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,909
It just gradually,
slowly but surely, built up
722
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,749
a bit of a reputation.
723
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,229
Then people started to come
from all over Northern Ireland
724
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,240
to the shop, so they did.
725
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:25,989
But it was a great way
of bringing people together.
726
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,269
Protestant and Catholics.
727
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,000
Nobody gave a shit.
728
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,680
Good Vibrations was a little oasis
in a sea of madness.
729
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,069
We have a body in the entry
behind us
730
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,749
and that body
has severe head injuries.
731
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,189
How was it discovered?
732
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,880
It was discovered this morning
by two passers-by.
733
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,709
It's assumed he set off
late at night to find a taxi
734
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,469
in the Falls Road and instead
became the random victim
735
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,160
of loyalist terrorists.
736
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,589
Everyone was scared
of the Shankill Butchers.
737
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,869
They were bogeymen.
We all feared them.
738
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,480
So many people were killed during
those days, but these were brutal.
739
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,989
They haunted my dreams.
740
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,669
To me, this is gruesome.
741
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,029
This is inhuman. Bestial.
742
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,280
It's indescribable.
743
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,549
What the Butchers used to do is get
a taxi and drive around Catholic
744
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,189
areas so the people
just flagged down the taxi.
745
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,349
And the minute they got in
they'd be attacked
746
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,389
by the Shankill Butchers and
tortured. Horrendous stuff.
747
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,749
Cut with knives,
have their teeth pulled out.
748
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,989
Absolutely brutal violence.
749
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,040
And they'd dump the bodies right
beside where I lived.
750
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,869
One morning we were going to school.
I was about 11 at the time.
751
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,029
As we were walking past
the community centre,
752
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,029
I could see the shape of a body
lying there.
753
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,909
There was loads of blood
all around it, so there was.
754
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,189
It had a profound effect on me
because I was such an innocent young
755
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,789
boy, just seeing someone there,
you know, I mean, cast aside
756
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,469
like a piece of meat
and butchered like that.
757
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,229
Our children are coming in
from school and from their play
758
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,829
and telling us that there are
men's heads lying in the gutter.
759
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,189
They're playing about in the blood
and they're coming in and saying,
760
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,949
"Mummy, look that's that dead man's
blood on my foot."
761
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:27,789
And we think that it's terrible
762
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,669
that children in this day and age
should be coming in and telling us
763
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,869
these things when they should be out
playing and enjoying themselves
764
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:35,920
like we had.
765
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,069
I used to play at the bottom
of the estate.
766
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,469
When I was walking home
767
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,349
if I heard the sound of a black
taxi, a diesel-engine taxi,
768
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,509
climbing the hill behind me,
I used to panic.
769
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,309
I used think, "It's the Butchers,"
and I'd be terrified.
770
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,989
Even though I was Protestant,
I was living in a Protestant estate,
771
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,949
I'd grab a stick or a plank of wood
or something and hide behind a bush
772
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,189
until they passed me.
773
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,429
I used to be freaking out
cos just say they stop
774
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,149
and they pull someone out and
they're killing them in front of me
775
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,589
and I see them killing them,
then they're going to kill me.
776
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,909
You know, there was that fear
of me becoming a victim.
777
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,229
And my dad was outraged
at these killings, so he was.
778
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:15,909
I mean, to him this is not
what loyalism was all about.
779
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,360
Can I ask about your dad?
780
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,709
I find it hard talking about my dad.
Do you?
781
00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:23,520
Give me a sec. Yeah.
782
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,309
How old were you when he died?
783
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:28,949
- Ten.
- Ten.
784
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,200
Ten.
785
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,669
He had cancer and my dad's death
hit me like a sledgehammer,
786
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,549
where my mum's death didn't
really hit me cos I didn't
787
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,389
have that relationship with her,
you know?
788
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,429
And I wasn't used to having
her around, where my dad
789
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,229
had been a constant presence
in my life. And it was decided
790
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:48,909
that we'd go and live with various
aunties and uncles.
791
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,360
So that was the end of our family
unit living together under one roof.
792
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,029
So life went on, you know what I
mean? I was living with my Uncle Rob
793
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:57,229
and my auntie, and that.
794
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,629
And one day I was sat at the top
of the stairs
795
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:00,789
and they were all talking.
796
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,989
And I kind of tuned in
to what they were saying
797
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,069
because they were talking
about my mum.
798
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,309
I thought,
why are they talking about her?
799
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,709
I realised that they were talking
about her as if she was still alive.
800
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,189
They weren't saying "was",
they were saying "is".
801
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,989
And then I came to the realisation
that, no, she's not dead,
802
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,469
she's actually alive somewhere.
803
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,509
My uncle said, "Oh, I wonder if
she's still a practising Catholic."
804
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,920
I was like, "What?!"
805
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,869
I gleaned that she was alive first
and I saw it,
806
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,149
I went, "Fuck me, she's alive!
I want to meet her."
807
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,749
And then when found out she was
Catholic I sort of nosedived again,
808
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,469
thinking, "Fuck me, I don't want to
meet her. I never want to hear her,
809
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:34,829
"I never want to see her," you know?
810
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,549
I felt utter shame I had Catholic
blood running through my veins.
811
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,549
I couldn't comprehend why my dad...
812
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,989
why would he go and marry
a Catholic?
813
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,029
He was a good loyalist,
he was in the UDA,
814
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,029
he's got a band. Why would he go
with a Catholic?
815
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,149
It was just all these things
overloading in my brain.
816
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,029
And also you had the Shankill
Butchers happening at this time.
817
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,709
This is all during the same period.
818
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,189
So when I heard I was a Catholic,
I'm thinking, fuck, you know,
819
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,749
the Shankill Butchers, if they
find out I'm a Catholic, they're
820
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,349
definitely going to come and get me
and cut me up. And they've only got
821
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,109
to trail me down the road cos I'm
right beside the community centre.
822
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,149
So all these conflicting emotions
are going through me.
823
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,869
You know what I mean? I had this
dirty little secret I had to keep.
824
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,549
I couldn't tell anyone.
I couldn't talk to anyone about it.
825
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,189
Where's my mother? Where's my
mother? You know? Who is she?
826
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,200
Why is she not here? Why did she
leave us? All these questions.
827
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,320
That is a brutal thing to live with.
828
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,989
Michael, do you have lots of
memories of your mum?
829
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:40,229
The only memory what really sticks
in my head was the night what
830
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:41,789
she was taken away.
831
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,349
And the last memories what I have
are when she was going out
832
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,829
the door with two women holding her
at each arm and she just turned
833
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,469
round and looked at us behind her.
834
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,989
And that's my last memory
of my mother.
835
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,480
Believe you me,
it's not a good memory to have.
836
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:15,789
The IRA came back with my mother's
purse and her wedding rings.
837
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,749
I sort of realised, although
I was only 11 years of age,
838
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,520
that my mother was dead.
839
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,320
All that I wanted all my life
was to have my mother's body back.
840
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,789
Not knowing where her body is,
841
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,720
you carry that out around with you
every day of your life.
842
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,960
The IRA was ashamed of
what they'd done.
843
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,349
That's why it was all in denial,
844
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,029
that they didn't do it.
845
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,309
That's why all those excuses was
made by them, saying my mother
846
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,669
had run off with a British Army...
847
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,989
Or our mother has living with
a UDA man up on Shankill Road.
848
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,989
All these stories, I've heard
all these stories before.
849
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,920
They had to put it out
that she was an informant.
850
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,949
Who said she was an informant?
That was coming from the IRA.
851
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,549
- They were saying that?
- Yeah.
852
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,640
So what the IRA was telling us
was lies.
853
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:24,440
We were told lies
for near enough 30 years.
854
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,629
[ARCHIVE]: In a surprise move tonight,
the IRA has told the BBC
855
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,069
that it has identified the graves
of nine people who were murdered
856
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:42,469
and buried in secret...
857
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,629
Over more than 30 years Jean
McConville's children have waited
858
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,589
for concrete evidence
about their mother's disappearance,
859
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,480
and today they believe
they've finally been given it.
860
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,240
No-one will ever know what happened.
861
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,680
Um, only the people that were there
know what happened.
862
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,349
And, um, we'd like to think
there was compassion shown,
863
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,709
but then again, there wouldn't
have been compassion shown.
864
00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:43,509
You just feel scared for her,
865
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,080
because what else
would she have felt?
866
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,189
Me and my brothers and sisters
gave her a Christian burial,
867
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,520
which is deserved.
868
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,760
So we have a place where
we can go...
869
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:06,480
...say our prayers, talk to her.
870
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,280
It's as close as we're ever going
to be to our mother again, you know?
871
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:14,640
These things help you.
872
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,520
After 31 years
you know where she was buried.
873
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:31,120
It's not the first time
I says it was a sectarian murder.
874
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,949
It was. It was a Protestant woman
murdered by the IRA.
875
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,040
What more sectarian could you get?
876
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,229
I would like to say this and I
would... I would like it to stay in,
877
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:50,440
and I mean this, I mean this 100%.
878
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,309
See any person what was involved in
879
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,029
taking my mother away and
killing her, and everything else,
880
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,520
I wouldn't wish this here
on any of their family.
881
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,160
And I really mean that.
882
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,069
Because you know.
883
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,669
I wouldn't...
I wouldn't like to see another
884
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,600
human being going through
what I've been through in life.
885
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,189
Do paramilitaries lie in bed
at night and wonder
886
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,509
about what they did? Do they see
the faces of the dead people?
887
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,120
I kind of hope so.
888
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,989
I don't see how anybody can wake up
in the morning and kill anybody
889
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,960
for a political reason. Fuck!
890
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,909
I'm Greg Cowan. I'm 62 years of age.
891
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,109
I have seven of my own hair left.
892
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,229
[CHUCKLING]
I've got a life.
893
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:10,869
I've got a life that I never
imagined I would have
894
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,320
growing up first.
895
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:19,680
Am I hitting something here?
Yeah, that's the space-bar.
896
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,069
[CRACKLY MUSIC PLAYS]
897
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,600
[HE LAUGHS]
898
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,829
Och, no, I can't watch this!
899
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,389
I thought you going to show a clip
when I was pretty!
900
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,309
Apart from the recording studio,
901
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,549
the reality of Belfast's punk
rock scene is far removed
902
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,429
from the glamour and sensation
of the gossip columns.
903
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,549
Greg Cowan,
by day a contract painter,
904
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,949
by night he's a vocalist
with The Outcasts.
905
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,640
[MUSIC: "The Cops Are Coming" by The Outcasts]
906
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:01,709
# Well, I used to be
a cracked on you... #
907
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:04,109
The Outcasts were one
of my favourite bands
908
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,029
at The Harp Bar, so they were.
909
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,469
The Harp Bar was a dreadful bar.
910
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,749
The Official IRA used to drink
downstairs.
911
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,709
They had wire grilles outside,
and that was to stop people throwing
912
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:17,469
bombs at it,
913
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:21,349
where although you could go up
and hang a bomb on the wire grilles,
914
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,669
I never quite worked out that,
but it was just a really
915
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,560
run-down bar.
916
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,640
I remember going into town
to travel to The Harp Bar.
917
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,509
You had to navigate your way
from one side of town to the other
918
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,429
side of town.
919
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,680
There was hardly anybody about.
It was dark.
920
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,349
There would have been
security forces present,
921
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,509
whether that be the Army
or the police.
922
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,189
I might have felt a bit anxious,
just that kind of fear
923
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:57,989
that you might have felt that
924
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,549
you might have been
the target of something, because,
925
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,549
you know, there was a group of you.
926
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:07,109
But once you got to The Harp Bar
that was lifted off,
927
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,389
put at the door,
you walked in and, you know,
928
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,229
all those worries and things,
929
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:15,800
I mean, cos you knew
you were in a safe place.
930
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,149
I mean, it was a dump.
931
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:21,909
But it was our dump.
932
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:26,349
Your feet sticking to the floor
cos spilt drink all over the carpet.
933
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,509
Ashtrays that weren't emptied.
934
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,869
And the toilets, the toilets were
like something out of Trainspotting.
935
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,989
I mean, they were horrible,
so they were!
936
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,040
[INAUDIBLE]
937
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,229
It was a madhouse,
an absolute madhouse.
938
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:45,909
This was not the modelly crowd.
939
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,629
This was guys from Belfast.
940
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,509
Guys, you know, who were turning
their back on their friends
941
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,269
who they'd run about with
for years
942
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,669
who might have been now joining
paramilitaries and stuff,
943
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,400
they were saying no
to all that there and moving on.
944
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,029
There was a lot of punks
whose fathers
945
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,029
were well-known paramilitaries,
or brothers were.
946
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,349
But when you went down
to The Harp Bar and you went
947
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,269
through that door,
religion went out the window.
948
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,869
I don't think I ever heard anybody
talk, certainly about religion
949
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,789
and what was going on out there.
950
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,949
In there
it was all about the music.
951
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,909
It was all about the fashion.
952
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,749
It was all about the bands.
953
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,069
And it was all about
who was playing that night.
954
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,669
For the first time you were meeting
people from a different area
955
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:33,789
and a different religion.
956
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,429
There's still people called each
other, you know, if you fell out
957
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,029
with someone, "You Fenian cunt,"
or something, you know,
958
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,389
like it wasn't, as I said,
everybody didn't just walk in,
959
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,109
Protestants on this side, hug all
the Catholics on the other side,
960
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:45,789
you know?
But it did, it broke barriers.
961
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,949
If punk breaks down the barrier
for one person,
962
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,269
then it's worthwhile,
like, isn't it?
963
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,669
I mean, one person,
it's only a tiny particle,
964
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,669
but it's going to create
for a better situation here.
965
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,080
And, like, punk's done that for me.
966
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,509
I kind of embraced that whole youth
culture and I started mixing
967
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,149
with Catholics and that, but that
was, like, an eye opener for me
968
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,429
because even though I'd grown up
hating them with a passion,
969
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,669
I didn't understand them.
970
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,309
But hanging out with them
and meeting them, I realised
971
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,669
that we weren't that different
from each other after all,
972
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,349
and we liked the same music
and the same style.
973
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:29,749
And we had so much in common.
974
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,389
And from that point onwards,
I started to change my attitude
975
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,229
towards Catholics and let go
of that entrenched prejudice
976
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:37,589
of my childhood.
977
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,029
You know, I was still dealing
with all the personal problems
978
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,949
in my life and all the madness
going on around me in Belfast.
979
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,429
So the music and the drugs, you
know, soothed the soul and offered
980
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,040
some escapism from the madness.
981
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,229
And don't forget, then, you know,
boys, girls are marrying.
982
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:58,880
I myself met my wife
in The Harp Bar.
983
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,189
He'll start telling you
I was a groupie and everything.
984
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,069
I was never a groupie.
You were a groupie!
985
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,709
I only started going out with him
cos he had a car
986
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,080
and it was a lift home.
That's also true!
987
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,389
- Did you ever know what religion I was?
- I always wanted to marry
988
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:18,829
a Catholic. I remember saying,
989
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,349
"That one there, she's quite
a pretty one, she'll do."
990
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,149
No, of course not!
You didn't discuss...
991
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:24,909
- You found that out afterwards.
- Yeah.
992
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,469
That's one of the points they made
about the whole thing, yeah.
993
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,029
- Yeah.
- Well, your eyes were always very close together
994
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:31,749
which was a bit of a giveaway!
995
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,069
[SHE LAUGHS]
996
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,640
Love conquers all.
997
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:58,440
Just really a lot of people
did not like what was going on.
998
00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:03,709
I got threatened all the time from
both sides.
999
00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:05,309
Why were they threatening you?
1000
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:08,680
Cos we were bringing the kids
together and they didn't like it.
1001
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,789
[ARCHIVE]: In a derelict side street
between Roman Catholic
1002
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,949
and Protestant areas, three men were
found shot in the head.
1003
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:23,149
Face down on the floor,
1004
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,960
with this pitchfork
stuck in the back of her neck.
1005
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,749
The only reason that I know why
1006
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,349
our sons died... were because
1007
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,440
they were Catholics.
1008
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,029
Punks were very brave
because those kids lived in areas
1009
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,629
which were controlled
by the paramilitaries.
1010
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,749
To go down to The Harp Bar and mix
with the people from the other tribe
1011
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,509
was not what they wanted.
1012
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,349
They wanted division,
they wanted hatred
1013
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,960
and they wanted to be able
to control it.
1014
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,309
I mean,
I lived near the Armagh Road.
1015
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,149
People used to call it Murder Mile.
1016
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,269
And a friend of mine said,
1017
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,429
"If you walked down the right-hand
side at night,
1018
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:13,749
"it meant you were a Catholic.
1019
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,389
"If you walked down
the left-hand side
1020
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:16,869
"it meant you were a Protestant.
1021
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,389
"But Terri Hooley
and his band of merry men
1022
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,109
"always danced down
the middle of the road."
1023
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,240
And that's what we tried to do,
dance down the middle of the road.
1024
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,109
Ladies and gentlemen,
would you put your hands together
1025
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,120
for Mr Terri Hooley?
1026
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,109
I always wanted to be able to say
to my children when they said,
1027
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,509
"Daddy, what did you do
during the Troubles?"
1028
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,720
I wanted to say
that I partied a lot.
1029
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,869
I drank, did drugs,
1030
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:53,709
and had a good time,
1031
00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:55,520
and I didn't kill anybody.
1032
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,360
What did sectarianism do
to your life, James?
1033
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,229
Ultimately?
1034
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:14,960
Ultimately it destroyed my life.
1035
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,429
Had you done things
you couldn't forgive yourself?
1036
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:19,480
Aye.
1037
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:22,600
Aye.
1038
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:42,069
I can remember a guy that I was
in jail with and he told me
1039
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,560
of how he was sent to kill
a shopkeeper.
1040
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,029
They went into the shop,
the shopkeeper come out,
1041
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,909
and he pulled out his gun
and shot the man.
1042
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,269
A few seconds later, the door to the
dwelling opened again and in walked
1043
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,029
the man's wife.
1044
00:57:58,040 --> 00:57:59,949
And he shot her as well.
1045
00:57:59,960 --> 00:58:02,720
She now falls down dead
on top of her husband.
1046
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,469
He goes to walk away and the door
opens again and in walks their
1047
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,200
eight-year-old daughter.
1048
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:20,360
He tries to kill the daughter
and fires 10 or 12 shots.
1049
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,309
I went away from him that day,
you know,
1050
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,469
and I went back to my six-man cell
1051
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,360
and I lay down and I thought...
1052
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,040
"Can't do it, James.
1053
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:37,869
"I can't be part of it.
1054
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,269
"This is not...
I didn't sign up for us.
1055
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,480
"Shooting a woman and a chil...
Fuck, this is not me."
1056
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,269
And I made a deal with myself
that day.
1057
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,589
I says, "Whatever's left of my
miserable life, I will never,
1058
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,869
"ever, ever lift a gun again.
1059
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:53,829
"That is me finished, out.
1060
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:55,880
"Finite. No mas."
1061
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:06,160
When you dumped your sectarianism,
did you shed it in one go?
1062
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:11,640
Jesus, that's a hard question.
1063
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,749
I think it faded away, you know.
1064
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,429
We have a saying
in the country, you know,
1065
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,120
like snow off a summer ditch.
1066
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:26,869
The snow doesn't vanish in an hour,
but it slowly melts away
1067
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,760
and then you turn around
and all of a sudden it's all gone.
1068
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:32,600
You know?
1069
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,669
Sorry. It's very personal.
1070
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,800
I know you struggle with this.
1071
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,269
But I really appreciate
you going back there.
1072
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:48,829
Uh-huh.
1073
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,909
Is that a...?
1074
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:52,440
Yeah, cut.
1075
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:04,240
Mm.
1076
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:11,080
- How are you getting on with your questions?
- Good.
1077
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,149
How are you getting on
with your biscuit?
1078
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:17,280
Very good.
1079
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:55,789
We're political prisoners!
1080
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,389
We'd put shit on the wall
and piss out the door.
1081
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,349
We were doing something positive.
1082
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,509
They've turned their violence
against themselves
1083
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,589
through the prison hunger strike
to death.
1084
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:07,829
[GUN SALUTE]
1085
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,040
I hated every minute of being
a prisoner's wife.
1086
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,349
I never knew the word hate
until I got married,
1087
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,120
until this happened.
1088
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,680
To watch exclusive interviews about
the making of this series visit...
1089
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:29,440
...and follow the links
to the Open University.
87149