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[CREW]: Do you want me to turn the
lights off?
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00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:12,920
[INTERVIEWER]: Yep.
3
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:20,149
There you go.
4
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:21,720
[QUIETLY]: Sorry.
5
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:24,949
[CHUCKLING]: I know.
6
00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:26,000
I know.
7
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,509
I'm still very anxious
that we're not far enough
8
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,309
past the Troubles and stuff
like that to be coming on camera.
9
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,749
But I think, really and truly, today
it is a different climate,
10
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,480
so hopefully only good will come
out of this.
11
00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,920
OK, shall we go from the beginning?
12
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,829
My name's Denise,
13
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,040
and I lived on an interface in
East Belfast.
14
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,829
Is that...? Is that what an
interface is,
15
00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,429
where you've got the Protestants here... - Yeah.
- ...where you live
16
00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,029
- and the Catholics...?
- The Catholics on the other side, yeah.
17
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,949
And what's the gap between the two
communities? Is it...
18
00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:27,389
Yards. I mean, the width of street,
you know?
19
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:28,549
Yeah. It was just...
20
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,789
I mean, it was just literally that
side of the wall, you don't go,
21
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,920
this side of the wall, you do.
22
00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,429
So here we are at the back.
This is Bryson Street,
23
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,189
and I would not have gone
past the stage.
24
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,509
This was me finished.
25
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,389
You know, that side's still
Protestant, this side isn't,
26
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,880
so this is where I would not
want to break down.
27
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,869
This is us.
There's the back of the peace wall.
28
00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,800
So that's our house in there.
29
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,909
- Does this feel like enemy territory for you?
- Yeah, 100%.
30
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,800
Well, you know? Well, maybe not.
I don't know.
31
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,069
I feel... Like, my hands feel
sweaty. I just...
32
00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:16,760
...don't enjoy being here.
33
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,189
I completely... I don't
want to go any further
34
00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,869
because I don't know how to get out,
so...
35
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:28,229
I know I can get out back there,
36
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,080
so I'll just do a U-turn and go.
37
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,000
Oh, there's somebody behind me. Oh!
38
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:37,749
All right, just...
39
00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,560
I'll just go, cos I don't
want to be...
40
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:45,669
...caught.
41
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,149
It's funny, I'm saying I don't want
to be caught out but, I mean,
42
00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,389
caught out at what?
43
00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,080
This is where I don't quite
understand my emotions.
44
00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,749
What I always felt as a child
growing up was
45
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,989
I felt that I wanted
to just be normal.
46
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,589
I wanted to just be like
everybody else.
47
00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,320
And we couldn't. We weren't
like everybody else.
48
00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,440
Because we had this secret
in our family.
49
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,469
Our life was living a lie
50
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,509
all of the time about who you were,
51
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,789
you know, what your mum worked at,
52
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,389
constantly wondering who would
tell who, who would know who.
53
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,749
And if something happened to Mummy,
54
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,920
was it my fault? Did I say
something, did I slip up?
55
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,949
I remember every day before
we would get in the car,
56
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,869
me and my brother and my mummy,
57
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,280
we would have to check underneath
the wheel rims for bombs.
58
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,669
Now, we... Quite often we'd check
it as the three of us, you know?
59
00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,429
Mummy would do, like, the front
and we'd do the wheels
60
00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,149
and somebody would do the back, you
know?
61
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:13,189
But if Mum felt... I mean, it's kind
of like those gut feelings.
62
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,589
If she felt there was something not
right even with the checks,
63
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,080
Mummy would have got in the car...
64
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,749
...and turn the engine on because
that would trigger something,
65
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,669
and we would be well back
at the house, you know?
66
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,269
So every morning, your mum...?
67
00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:35,309
- Every single morning.
- ...would play Russian roulette?
68
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,349
Yeah. You know, I mean, it sounds
like fiction,
69
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,669
it sounds like it's made up,
but it had just become a way
70
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,640
of life, you know? So...
71
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,469
[INTERVIEWEE HUMS]
72
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,109
[CREW]: Yep.
73
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:09,549
How are you?
74
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,109
I'm great. Was the big leather
chair not available?
75
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,709
[CREW LAUGH]
76
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,680
My arse is feeling numb already.
77
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,709
Is that...?
Is that an uncomfortable chair?
78
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:22,789
It is uncomfortable.
79
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:23,840
No, it's fine.
80
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,549
How does this feel now, in here?
81
00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,309
- Oh, that's fine. - Yeah?
- That's fine.
82
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,040
- You're happy with the lights?
- Yes.
83
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,509
I'm fine with the lights, yep.
84
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,949
And why can't you show your face?
85
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,069
It would be very naive of me
to spend all my life dealing
86
00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,909
with terrorist organisations
and not think there's people out
87
00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,880
there who would probably
want to kill me.
88
00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,029
So I'm not going to put my life
on the line like that.
89
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,989
But, yes, I was... I was 32
years in the police,
90
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,309
and 30 of those were in
Special Branch, so...
91
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,080
...I know a little bit about things.
92
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,800
[CROWD JEERS]
93
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,109
They were still going full
tilt at that stage,
94
00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:26,909
you know, in the '80s.
95
00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,269
Republican bombings and Loyalist
shootings
96
00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:32,480
and just daily tit-for-tat.
97
00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:38,229
It was down to us in Special Branch
to find out who is a threat
98
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,629
to national security, who are
in paramilitary organisations,
99
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:48,920
and what can we do to infiltrate
those organisations and stop them?
100
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,509
That was the job?
101
00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,120
That was the job, yes.
102
00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:58,600
But it was never easy.
103
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,389
[SIREN WAILS]
104
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,429
[REPORTER]: A car bomb at Harrods in
central London kills nine people.
105
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,469
In Hyde Park, a car bomb packed
with nails exploded into a troupe
106
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:10,989
of Household Cavalry.
107
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,029
The guards were just standing there,
bewildered, just shouting,
108
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,920
"Bastards. The bastards."
109
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,669
I think the IRA realised
they could bomb Northern Ireland
110
00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,109
all day, seven days a week,
and it wasn't going to make much
111
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,309
difference to the British
government.
112
00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,629
"Well, maybe they'll listen a bit
better if we put a bomb
113
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,240
"in the centre of London."
114
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,109
I mean, they weren't stupid.
They weren't daft.
115
00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,269
They had people there who had brains
in their head
116
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:36,789
and could think forward, and...
117
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,549
You don't underestimate them?
118
00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,280
No. No, I don't.
119
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,280
They knew exactly
what they were doing.
120
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,789
The Irish Republican Army
this morning made its most audacious
121
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,269
and potentially devastating attack
yet on the British government.
122
00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,109
Just after three o'clock this
morning,
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00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,589
they attempted to assassinate
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00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,309
the Prime Minister, members
of her Cabinet and other leading
125
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,640
Tory politicians as they slept
in their beds in a Brighton hotel.
126
00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,189
You hear about these atrocities,
these bombs.
127
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,040
You don't expect them to happen
to you.
128
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,869
But life must go on as usual.
129
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,360
Thank you, Prime Minister.
Thank you.
130
00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,589
Do you remember the Brighton bomb?
131
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,389
No. No.
132
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,109
You don't remember the Brighton
bomb?
133
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,789
Was that the one with the white
buildings?
134
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,629
- I'm trying to think.
- The one where they try and kill Thatcher.
135
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,349
Oh, aye. Yeah.
136
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,469
Yeah, remember that one.
137
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:38,509
Sorry.
138
00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,029
[SHE STIFLES A LAUGH]
139
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:42,240
Yeah.
140
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,269
Pity they didn't get her.
141
00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,200
- What?
- Pity they didn't get her.
142
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:50,520
Despise that woman.
143
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,269
My name's Annmarie McKee.
144
00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,400
I'm a Republican ex-prisoner
and mother of eight children.
145
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,840
That should be on my gravestone.
146
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,640
I wasn't your normal teenager.
147
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,709
You know, everybody had Wham!
on their rooms and, you know,
148
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,029
all their pop idols.
149
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,800
Well, mine was IRA men.
150
00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,200
Fuckin' tricolours
hanging from my ceiling.
151
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,829
See, when there was a new poster
out, Republican movement,
152
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:34,109
I went and bought it.
153
00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,480
Room... You couldn't see my room.
154
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,869
I really looked up to them,
you know?
155
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:45,080
They were like heroes to me.
156
00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,280
So I just watched and learned.
157
00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,080
[CHILD SHOUTS]
158
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,040
That's me.
159
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,120
I think I was about 13 or 14 there.
160
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,760
Not holding the bottle properly.
161
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,989
[CROWD SHOUTS]
162
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,920
[GLASS SHATTERS, DOG WHINES]
163
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,989
My life just seemed to be what was
going on in Ireland and the Brits,
164
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,229
you know? Going to marches,
protests,
165
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,029
just doing something for the
struggle.
166
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,349
[THEY CHANT]
167
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:42,080
- So quite a politically aware, motivated teenager?
- Yeah.
168
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:44,749
Yeah.
169
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,789
You had the IRA and then you had
Sinn Fein, you know, and...
170
00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,789
...and I was young, so I joined
Sinn Fein Youth
171
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,229
and learnt a lot of the history
about Ireland,
172
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:57,989
about things that happened,
173
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,309
the likes of Bloody Sunday and the
whole social injustice.
174
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,909
And the more you educated yourself,
175
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,149
you actually became stronger
176
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,280
and more passionate...
177
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,149
...through the education of it.
178
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,509
Did you also sort of get lectures
on, like,
179
00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,229
Bloody Friday, for example?
180
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,280
- No. - Other IRA atrocities?
- No.
181
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,189
So you're getting a very biased
account, in one regard.
182
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,840
Never at any stage did I feel
that I was being brainwashed...
183
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,149
...because I seen what was going on
in my own home.
184
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,069
I'd already been through
it, seen it.
185
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,629
Seen dead children in coffins,
186
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,309
people being beat in the streets,
187
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,709
being pulled out of my bed by
the British Army,
188
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,480
so nobody could tell me
any different.
189
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,549
You seen yourself like the next
generation and you want
190
00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:55,389
to be a part of that.
191
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,349
And...
192
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,469
...it was, like, sort of my
younger life was actually preparing
193
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,600
me for later on, you know?
194
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,320
Yeah.
195
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,069
[CHANTING AND DRUMMING]
196
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,029
Brits out! Brits out! Brits out!
Brits out! Brits out!
197
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,469
Brits out!
198
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,269
Hey! Hey! IRA!
Hey! Hey! IRA! Hey! Hey! IRA!
199
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,709
You can't fight a war
against the like of the IRA
200
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:26,509
without intelligence.
201
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,949
We needed to know
who was in the organisation
202
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,309
and who was in command positions
in the organisation,
203
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,789
who's looking after the weapons
and the arms dumps.
204
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,509
We needed to know that.
205
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,469
So you have to have people recruited
from within the organisation
206
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:41,629
to deal with that.
207
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,509
And that's called an agent, is it?
208
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,120
Yes. Agent. Source.
209
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,709
If you're from the Republican side,
you'd call them a tout.
210
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,629
And those are obviously
the most valuable,
211
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,360
because they're in at the heart
of what's going on.
212
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,629
[REPORTER]: The British government
insisted
213
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:05,909
that a dreadful act of terrorism
214
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,429
had been prevented when security
forces shot dead three Republican
215
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,029
paramilitaries on the streets
of Gibraltar.
216
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,869
At the time they were shot,
217
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,349
the suspects were all unarmed.
218
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,429
Well, there had to be intelligence
to say they were going over there
219
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,920
to carry out some sort of
an atrocity.
220
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,829
I wasn't involved in the actual
operation,
221
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,789
I'm not privy
to what the intelligence was,
222
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,029
but let's assume that some
of our informants knew exactly
223
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,549
what they're going to do
and when they're going to do it,
224
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:36,600
and that there was an operation
set up to prevent that, and...
225
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,680
...that's what happened.
226
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,509
They prevented it.
227
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:43,909
How did they prevent it?
228
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,400
They shot dead the three
people involved.
229
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,160
[BAGPIPER PLAYS]
230
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,469
[REPORTER]: It began as the families
wished, in peace and with dignity.
231
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,749
The bodies of the three
IRA volunteers shot in Gibraltar
232
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,869
were taken from their homes
draped in the Irish tricolour,
233
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,869
and followed by a growing procession
of mourners as they moved
234
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,280
through West Belfast.
235
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,309
[ANNEMARIE]: I always went to the
marches and the funerals, you know,
236
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,269
to show support,
237
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,800
but that funeral that day was...
238
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:27,960
You'd never forget that.
239
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,229
I remember we were carrying
the wreaths.
240
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,789
My granny was there, too,
all the family was there,
241
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,509
but I was carrying a wreath,
and we're walking...
242
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,320
...walking into the graveyard.
243
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,909
And...
244
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,080
...we're just standing there.
245
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,629
[EXPLOSION]
246
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,229
[SCREAMING]
247
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,149
[EXPLOSION]
248
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,349
And then all of a sudden
we heard banging.
249
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:16,960
[EXPLOSION]
250
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,480
And grenades went off.
251
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,160
[EXPLOSIONS AND SCREAMING]
252
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:29,920
[EXPLOSION]
[MAN]: Jesus!
253
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,720
[SCREAMING AND CLAMOURING]
254
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,589
I remember standing up.
255
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,229
Into the distance,
256
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,280
I could see this man with dark hair.
257
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,349
He had a gun and was shooting.
258
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,429
[GUNFIRE]
259
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,720
Everybody was ducking.
260
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,509
It was just... It was chaos.
261
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,040
[WOMAN SCREAMS]
262
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,789
[GUNSHOT]
263
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,920
[GUNSHOTS CONTINUE]
264
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,200
[EXPLOSION]
265
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,400
[EXPLOSION AND SCREAMING]
266
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,509
Try and stay calm!
267
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,789
Can people stay where they are?
268
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,400
[HORN BLARES]
269
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,040
[PEOPLE SHOUT]
270
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,109
Never seen so many screaming.
271
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,589
And you know...
272
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,309
What one person could do there.
273
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,549
Cause chaos with thousands
and thousands of people.
274
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,720
[SIREN WAILS]
275
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,400
[WOMAN]: Jesus Christ!
276
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,520
You fucking bastards!
277
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,400
That's me there.
278
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,080
How old are you there?
279
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:35,629
Erm...
280
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,240
...I'd have been 17.
281
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,040
- And is that your grandma?
- Yeah.
282
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,480
[VIDEO]: You fucking bastards!
283
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,829
My granny's screaming there.
284
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,269
That's like an echo.
285
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:53,549
You OK?
286
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,400
Yeah. Yeah.
287
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,629
Michael Anthony Stone, a 32-year-old
unemployed builder,
288
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,149
appeared in a Belfast magistrates'
court this afternoon charged
289
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,949
with the murders of three people
in Wednesday's attack
290
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,429
at Milltown Cemetery.
291
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,309
At the end of the hearing,
Stone told police,
292
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,509
"I alone carried out
this military operation
293
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,069
"as a retaliatory strike
against the IRA.
294
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,869
"I am a dedicated freelance
Loyalist paramilitary.
295
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,520
"No surrender."
296
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,549
Did you feel you were a different
person leaving that funeral
297
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,960
than the person who arrived?
Mm-hm. Yeah.
298
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,080
I have been never so angry
in my life.
299
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,389
It just sort of made a permanent
print on my head, in my mind,
300
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,920
you know? "I'm not sitting back
and..."
301
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,480
You know? "I need to do something.
I need to help in some way."
302
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,760
I was that angry.
303
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,629
Can I just say this, that at a time
of emotion, there obviously
304
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,709
will be the thought of revenge
and retaliation.
305
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:21,269
If that happens, this mad and awful
cycle of killing and murder
306
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,200
and violence will go on.
307
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,560
Everybody was, like, on alert
that day...
308
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,520
...and tensions were really,
really high.
309
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,389
I was away on down, down the road,
because of crowds, you know?
310
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,789
And then I heard there was
commotion.
311
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,669
Something about,
312
00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,760
"There's a car pulled into crowds."
313
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,560
[TYRES SQUEAL]
314
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:14,749
There was a fear in everybody's
minds.
315
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,029
Was this happening again?
316
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,240
Was it a remake of Milltown?
317
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:25,549
But you really didn't know
what was going on
318
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,709
until you heard afterwards.
319
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,509
What did you hear?
320
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,360
I just heard that they were two
British Army fellas.
321
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,349
[MAN]: Get back, get back! Come on!
322
00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:39,109
[INDISTINCT RADIO CHAT]
323
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,560
[WOMAN]: Right, there's a car
behind...
324
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,429
[MAN]: Give them here, give them here.
325
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,389
[MAN SHOUTS ANGRILY]
326
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,680
- There! - Run!
- There!
327
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,269
From an early age I did believe in
God, you know what I mean, like?
328
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,160
And it was always a big
part of my childhood.
329
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,469
But when these soldiers were
attacked, you know what I mean,
330
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,680
that was the most horrendous thing
I've ever seen in my life.
331
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,029
It was one of them,
you know what I mean,
332
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,760
like, moments that make you stop.
333
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,560
What kind of God would let this
kind of madness go on, you know?
334
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,120
[DISCORDANT MUSIC, SHOUTS ECHO]
335
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,760
[TAXI HORN BLARES]
336
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,149
[REPORTER]: The police say the two
soldiers were then
337
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,709
put in a black taxi
and taken to waste ground
338
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,629
behind the Andersonstown Road shops,
339
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,840
where they were severely beaten,
stripped and shot dead.
340
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,909
[DENISE]: I can see the footage
in my head,
341
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,829
and it just makes me
physically sick.
342
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,189
I can't watch that.
343
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,709
I literally... I literally
cannot watch that.
344
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,600
It's the most horrific...
345
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,920
Horrific, horrific, horrific.
346
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,280
I literally... I mean, you know...
347
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,680
I...
348
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,629
And then that shock progresses
to worry about...
349
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,800
...Mum's job and the family secret.
350
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,309
Because Mum was in the Army.
351
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,069
And that was the biggest fear
that I would have had,
352
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,560
that Mummy could be next.
353
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,960
I'm Jean, and I was a Greenfinch
in the Ulster Defence Regiment...
354
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,029
...and I'm proud of the years
that I served,
355
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:46,709
just trying to subdue the IRA and
prevent the atrocities.
356
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:52,109
And as a single person
with two children, I felt
357
00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:56,949
like I was finally doing something
358
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,909
to try and make the country
a better place.
359
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,189
Did you understand how dangerous
something like this was
360
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,440
before you joined?
No. No idea, really...
361
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,640
...how it could...
362
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,109
...impact on your family.
363
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:19,069
And it's not just you
that's joining,
364
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,880
your whole family are targeted.
365
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,789
[REPORTER]: Known by their nickname,
366
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,229
Greenfinches are the only women
in the British Army
367
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,389
who have a full front line role in
military operations.
368
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,029
Where are you coming from?
369
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:45,629
Since 1970, 174 male soldiers
of the UDR and four Greenfinches
370
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,440
have been killed by
the IRA or other paramilitaries.
371
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,829
The greatest strain, I think, is one
that is unique to the circumstances
372
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,109
that this regiment live under,
373
00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,269
where they are at threat to
a greater extent
374
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,600
when they're off duty than when
they're on duty.
375
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,480
[DENISE]: The extension here,
that's our house.
376
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,949
Everybody in the Forces
lived under that kind of terror,
377
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,829
but we as a family just felt extra
vulnerable
378
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,320
because we weren't on the barracks.
379
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,989
We were actually living
in the community,
380
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,000
living on that interface.
381
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,549
The intensity of the fear,
382
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,520
I mean, it magnified to a point
of...
383
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,189
I can't even describe how we
felt because
384
00:25:54,200 --> 00:26:00,109
not only were we targets from
the Catholic side of Madrid Street
385
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,589
and IRA, we were even more targeted
386
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,149
for the IRA because they were
anti-Army.
387
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:13,189
And then there was a massive turn
when some of the paramilitaries
388
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,549
on the Protestant side also turned
against the UDR, you know, and...
389
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,189
...you were hated by everybody.
390
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,160
[EXPLOSIONS AND SCREAMS ECHO]
391
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,509
I remember I came home one night
and I noticed somebody coming
392
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,309
out of my gate,
393
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,269
and this was the early hours of
morning, coming off duty.
394
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:40,669
So I went into the house and looked
out of the back window,
395
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,069
and the two guys were standing,
looking up,
396
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,880
and they pulled the black hoods
over their heads.
397
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,509
And I thought, "Well, this is it."
398
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,909
We tried to phone...
to phone the police,
399
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,429
and they'd cut the phone lines.
400
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,429
I came down again.
401
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,069
I thought, you know,
402
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,189
"If I come down into the hall,
they'll come in,
403
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,480
"they'll do me,
but they won't get the kids."
404
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,200
But...
405
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,389
...it didn't happen, and it turned
out, no, it was a gang of them,
406
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,629
and across the way they were
breaking into a shop.
407
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,229
It was a robbery?
408
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,400
- It was a robbery. - It was a robbery.
- Not an assassination? - No.
409
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,880
- Hell of a thing, when you look back on it.
- Mm-hm.
410
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,589
Yeah.
411
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,000
But that's...
412
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,789
...one of the...
413
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,920
...horrible things about the job.
414
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,349
You see, this is why
it was so important to keep
415
00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:55,880
what Mum done secret.
416
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,669
Because you're not dealing
with normal people,
417
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,069
you're dealing with terrorists.
418
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,160
You're dealing with people
that kill people.
419
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,400
And that sucked the life out
of my mum, and out of our family.
420
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,520
I mean, it could be anybody,
any time, any place, anywhere.
421
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,720
Mm.
422
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,400
Now, you see, I should have brought
my glasses.
423
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,349
It's a book about all the people
who died during the conflict,
424
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:45,989
from the start to the finish.
425
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,869
It goes by the date they were
killed, from the year,
426
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,069
who killed them,
why they were killed,
427
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,949
and it is... It is a powerful
book to read.
428
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,949
And it's not fiction.
429
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,749
It's real.
430
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:58,989
So...
431
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,440
Yeah.
432
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,429
I mean, it's everybody from RUC,
soldiers, UDR,
433
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,600
civilians, Catholic, Protestant.
Everyone's in it.
434
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,749
And how many people do you know
in there, did you say?
435
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,429
27.
436
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,520
And one of them's my father.
437
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,880
My name is Billy McManus,
I am from Belfast.
438
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,309
My daddy was killed by Loyalists,
439
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,160
5th February 1982.
440
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,469
Him being killed is a box
that I carry every day,
441
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,669
and some days it's a small box
442
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,269
and it fits in my pocket.
443
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,509
And then some days it's a big,
big box,
444
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,480
and I struggle to carry it.
445
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,229
That's the only way I can
describe it.
446
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,109
And...
447
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,440
...at certain times, you put it
down...
448
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,869
...but you always have to pick
it up again.
449
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,909
That's the way I would describe
Sean Graham's,
450
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,800
and what happened to my daddy.
451
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,709
I have great memories of
being a young fellow
452
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,789
and standing beside my dad... he was
called Big Willie...
453
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,629
trying to drink pints of Guinness
with him, and end up...
454
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,269
"Hold on. You're an eejit here."
455
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,669
My dad... My dad could drink.
456
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,149
But that's just the way he was.
457
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,189
Liked his beer and greyhounds,
and...
458
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,720
...wasn't involved in any political
thing, so...
459
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,909
And he just... He...
460
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,749
He was just... He was just...
461
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,360
He was... He was just my dad.
462
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,789
We also remember the seven others...
463
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,309
Have the killers ever been caught?
What's that?
464
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,789
- Have your father's killers ever been caught?
- No.
465
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,589
No.
466
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,629
These people have never been
charged.
467
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:17,949
Never been a day in court.
468
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,509
They're still enjoying their lives,
469
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,560
planning weddings, going on holiday.
470
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,200
It's not fair that the killers
of these five people...
471
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,080
...could get away with murder.
472
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,789
Families need to get the answers
they deserve
473
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,600
and the peace that they want.
474
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,509
We have fought for 30 years to get
the truth about what happened
475
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,549
on that day. And, as you know, I was
there.
476
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,669
As I stand here today,
477
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,109
it makes me so proud that we never
give up.
478
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,989
And on Monday morning, we will stand
shoulder by shoulder and hopefully
479
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,280
get the report that we deserve.
480
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,509
Will the truth be in the report?
481
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,189
I hope so, because once you get
the truth, we will get justice.
482
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,040
Thank you.
483
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:26,480
Thank you, son.
484
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,320
I don't call it the Troubles
any more because...
485
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,189
...it was more than troubles.
486
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,749
We were fucking animals to each
other.
487
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,000
And that's just the way it was.
488
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,189
Help restore peace to Ulster.
489
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,469
Any information you've got
about explosions, murders,
490
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,309
ring Belfast 652155.
491
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,800
And don't worry, your call
is absolutely safe and confidential.
492
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,069
You keep it zipped,
493
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,349
because one wrong word can lead
to somebody dying
494
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,240
or somebody being arrested.
495
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,029
It's like even going into bars,
you know, if there was a stranger
496
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,389
there, you watched, because you
don't know who they are, you know,
497
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,520
they could be Special Branch.
498
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,669
They could be a tout trying to sort
of listen to information
499
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,960
within sort of the Republican
sort of family.
500
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,989
There's an old thing that everybody
used to say,
501
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,440
used to be painted all over the
walls in Belfast.
502
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,520
Loose talk costs lives.
503
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,749
And did you take that seriously?
504
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:05,800
Definitely.
505
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,389
Because there was a time sort
of then that the IRA had asked me
506
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:20,560
for a favour... to plant firebombs
within Belfast shops.
507
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,440
Which, at that stage, I was
happy to do.
508
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,320
You just go in, look around you,
find your spot.
509
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,469
You've just got the stuff in your
bag and you have to get rid of it.
510
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,629
You have to put it somewhere
where it's not going to be found.
511
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,640
That's... That's all I focused.
512
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,560
And then you just waited.
513
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:56,589
There was an 11-hour timer on them,
you know, so you sort of knew
514
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,189
if you plant them a certain time,
then you knew there was going to be
515
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,149
no injuries, you know, because
they would go off during the night.
516
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,069
[SIREN WAILS]
517
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,829
[REPORTER]: Two firebombs exploded in
the centre of Belfast
518
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,349
early this morning.
519
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,589
A third ignited as firemen
tackled the blaze.
520
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,280
The owners estimate
losses of more than £1 million.
521
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,149
My feelings at that time,
you know...
522
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,069
My head was full of hatred,
you know,
523
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,269
and I wanted to help in some way.
524
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,800
And if this is what I had to do
to help...
525
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,949
...never questioned, just did it.
526
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,509
Is there any...? Is there anything
that would have made you question?
527
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,349
Like, you know, if they said,
528
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,120
"These devices are going to go
off at lunchtime"?
529
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:54,600
No.
530
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,469
[REPORTER]: Protestant as well as
Catholic communities are hostage
531
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,469
as sectarian murder escalates.
532
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,309
But the key ingredient in the rising
level of violence
533
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,149
has been a new wave of Loyalist
terrorists.
534
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,029
For the first time since
the '70s, Loyalists
535
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,760
are responsible for more killing
than the Republicans.
536
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,949
[BILLY]: People didn't go out as much
in the early '90s, didn't travel.
537
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,789
I think they were always
waiting on seeing what was happening
538
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,429
because that was what happened.
It was, "They done it to us
539
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,629
"so we're going to do it to them."
Tit-for-tat.
540
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,349
But an eye for an eye
leaves you blind.
541
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,440
Know what I mean?
542
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,589
I'll never forget watching
the Teebane atrocity on the news.
543
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,429
That was when workmen were coming
home from working on a RUC station,
544
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,109
and the IRA blew up their van.
545
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,309
And I think there was eight of them
killed and so many injured.
546
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,589
And I remember clear as day
what my father says.
547
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,229
Do you know what my father says?
548
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:08,709
"Some poor Catholic's going to
get shot for it.
549
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:11,400
"Some innocent Catholic's
going to die."
550
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,920
And I didn't realise a couple
of weeks later it'd be him.
551
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,629
Do you want to tell me about
that day?
552
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,360
The bookie's?
553
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,029
It was just normal.
554
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,360
Just a normal day.
555
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,669
I was around painting in the house,
556
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,589
and then at lunch-time, which was
about one o'clock,
557
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,269
my dad, I turned around
and he was walking up road,
558
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,309
and I shouted over to him and he
turned back and waved over to me,
559
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,389
and then he just walked on up road.
560
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,749
And then...
561
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,080
...I went back to work and...
562
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,880
...John, my supervisor at the time...
563
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:54,749
...run in and he says,
564
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,989
"Billy, something bad's happened
up at the bookie's,"
565
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,629
and I knew my daddy was there.
I just...
566
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,629
Don't ask me how I knew,
I just...
567
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,949
A terrible feeling came over me.
568
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,600
[SIREN WAILS]
569
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,880
[MAN SHOUTS]
570
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,949
[REPORTER]: Sean Graham bookmaker's in
a Catholic area of Belfast
571
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,389
had been packed with people
572
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,069
and two gunmen entered the building
and immediately
573
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:24,880
started shooting indiscriminately.
574
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,360
I sprinted up that road.
575
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:36,109
The first person I seen was my uncle
lying outside,
576
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,789
and I could realise there was
something seriously wrong with him.
577
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,109
He had blood... He was holding his
stomach
578
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,280
and the blood was coming through his
hands, God love him.
579
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,949
But then he says,
"Where's your daddy?
580
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,600
"Go and get your daddy."
581
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,309
So I went in to Sean Graham's
bookie's for that couple of seconds.
582
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,480
Then this big police officer
just appeared out of nowhere.
583
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,109
And I says, "Let me in,
my daddy's in there."
584
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,549
He says, "No, don't you go.
You don't want to go in."
585
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,389
Back out of the way, there. Police.
586
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:13,920
- Are you all right there?
- [BOY]: Aye.
587
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,669
Do you know anyone here?
588
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,880
[SIREN WAILS]
589
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,400
Move back out of the way, please.
590
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,029
People just were all around me.
591
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,360
It was pandemonium, it was mayhem.
592
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,680
In the end, a big mate came out,
Brian McCartan.
593
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,949
And I said, "Brian,
where's my daddy?
594
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,709
"What about my daddy?"
595
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:52,000
And he just says...
596
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,629
He just said, "Billy they're gone.
They're all gone.
597
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,720
"He's dead."
598
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:00,960
[YOUNG BILLY WAILS]
599
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,709
And then I let out a big scream.
600
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:08,909
It was caught on camera.
It was caught...
601
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,760
The camera crew caught it.
602
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,269
And then Brian...
603
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,229
Brian held me up
because my legs went.
604
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:17,600
[POLICE OFFICER]: Let's go.
605
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,120
It was a
bloodbath.
606
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,949
[REPORTER]: As victim after victim was
brought out,
607
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,909
the scale of the outrage
slowly became clear.
608
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,229
Five people died,
609
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:33,109
another ten were injured in a hail
of gunfire.
610
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,149
It's our sons, our husbands, our
brothers and all
611
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:37,429
that's getting shot there.
612
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,509
What for? What's it gaining?
Nothing at all.
613
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,440
Look at this woman.
Look at that woman down there.
614
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,560
Fuck off, would ye?
615
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,520
Just innocent people.
616
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,229
Not one of them involved
in politics, not one of them
617
00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:00,720
involved in paramilitarism.
Just innocent.
618
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,749
[REPORTER]: This evening, the outlawed
Ulster Freedom Fighters said
619
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,549
they carried out the murders.
620
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,709
"Remember Teebane," they said...
a reference to the incident
621
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:18,229
in which the IRA blew up a bus
of Protestant construction workers,
622
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:20,069
killing eight people.
623
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,189
The attack has drawn attention
to the new tactics being deployed
624
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,520
by Loyalist paramilitary groups.
625
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,149
From the first week
of Sean Graham's bookie's,
626
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,349
people knew there was something
dirty about it.
627
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,000
I think it was talked about quietly
at the first...
628
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,389
...but...
629
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,029
...the word "collusion", to us,
630
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:47,760
was where we were all looking.
631
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,000
And just explain
to me what collusion is.
632
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,640
Collusion is, in my eyes,
when...
633
00:41:58,240 --> 00:41:59,669
...Loyalist paramilitaries
634
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,229
and the state security forces
work together
635
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,909
- in killing someone.
- And by the "state security forces"
636
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,229
do you mean...?
I mean the British Army
637
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,280
and the RUC... erm...
638
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:14,480
...and Special Branch.
639
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,200
Let's just talk about collusion.
640
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,029
Well, collusion, to me...
641
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,709
To me, is where
a police officer goes
642
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:32,029
to a member of a terrorist
organisation and says to them,
643
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,749
"There's a target for you,"
you know?
644
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,589
"Go and... Go and kill them."
645
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,469
Obviously, that's out-and-out
collusion.
646
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,469
But...
647
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,000
...it's not that simple.
648
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,069
I mean, you could argue
that I colluded every day
649
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,629
of my Special Branch life.
650
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,629
I colluded with informants,
651
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,029
I met them.
652
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,749
So I'm breaking the law
in the sense of it.
653
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,909
I'm colluding
654
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,829
because they're telling me about
a job that's going down.
655
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,509
But the reason I'm colluding,
656
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,749
I'm colluding
to try and get it stopped.
657
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,629
This is the problem.
658
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,829
When you start involving informants
and stuff, it's...
659
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,840
It gets deep and dirty and murky and
it's all done under secrecy.
660
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,989
I don't know who coined it as being
"the dirty war", but, yeah,
661
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,240
it was, you know?
662
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,149
But, at the end of the day,
663
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,120
we will do we have to do
to stop terrorists.
664
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,109
[REPORTER]: Firebombs have badly
damaged two stores
665
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,349
in the centre of Belfast.
666
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,989
Thousands of pounds' worth of stock
was destroyed as the bombs exploded
667
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,400
early this morning.
668
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,069
I think it was over a period
of a couple of months
669
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,429
that I planted incendiary devices.
670
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,789
And it went...
671
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:52,840
It went well.
672
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,000
But then...
673
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,789
...I was actually heavily
pregnant at the time,
674
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,560
erm, doing it.
675
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,920
And then... erm...
676
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,989
...next stage of my life was
that I was in hospital.
677
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,869
I had my second child,
678
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,080
lovely wee girl.
679
00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:25,229
And, erm...
680
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:27,760
...when I came into labour ward...
681
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,469
...somebody came and told me that,
682
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,949
erm, an ex-boyfriend,
683
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,240
he was talking, big time.
684
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,549
There had been had a number
of arrests due to the information
685
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,229
he had give to the RUC.
686
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:46,960
And my name is one of them.
687
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:50,960
Erm...
688
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,629
...I'll make a point here that
actually
689
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,349
the fella who had give my
information,
690
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,549
gave the information about me,
691
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,669
was...
692
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:06,320
...the baby I had's, father.
693
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,589
So I sort of had to come round
that sort of, you know, betrayal,
694
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,760
you know, after having a child,
his child...
695
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,309
...and he can give your name forward.
696
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,440
[INDISTINCT RADIO CHAT]
697
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,189
They understand how, through
interrogation,
698
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,080
people sort of break down.
699
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,080
But he knew the consequences for me.
700
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,200
It was early hours
of Sunday morning.
701
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,309
The cops and the Brits
were at the door.
702
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,869
"We're arresting you under the
Terrorism Act,"
703
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,109
and stuff like this here.
704
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,309
I went, "Right, OK."
705
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,549
I ask her to go back in again
to say cheerio to the kids.
706
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,669
They wouldn't let me
back into the room.
707
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,669
Obviously I was arrested, so from
the kitchen
708
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,309
they just took me out to
a Jeep.
709
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,760
And then took me straight
to Castlereagh...
710
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,160
...for seven days' interrogation.
711
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,229
- Is Castlereagh a scary place?
- Huh?
712
00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:27,109
Is Castlereagh quite a scary
place?
713
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:28,989
A fuckin' nightmare.
714
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,080
It's... hellhole.
715
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,440
You know, just total... Total hell.
716
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,269
You know? They play mind
games with you.
717
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:39,389
Oh, they're good.
718
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,869
Twist things and everything else,
you know?
719
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,480
Erm, just constant interrogation.
720
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,240
They try and break you.
721
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,189
They say they were interrogated,
I say they were interviewed.
722
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:58,589
Erm, but saving lives is what
we were about,
723
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,189
and any piece of intelligence
is valuable.
724
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,389
Any smallest piece of
intelligence is useful.
725
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,949
I was trying to break them
into admitting that they
726
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,789
were members of a paramilitary
organisation,
727
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,720
and then recruit them.
728
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,709
Personally, I think everyone's
recruitable
729
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:19,160
if you find the right button
to press.
730
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,909
A lot of people in there didn't come
out the same people, you know,
731
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,309
through the hours and hours
of interrogation.
732
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,829
You know, you could be sitting...
733
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,840
Sitting there, it's just a wee
table.
734
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,989
And them two sitting the other side
in the wee room.
735
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,829
They're maybe constantly kicking,
kicking your chair,
736
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,949
screaming into your ear,
you know,
737
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,029
trying to degrade you as a woman.
738
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,469
Erm, talk about your child,
739
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,789
"You're an unfit mother"
and this, that and the other.
740
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,549
They're looking for something
just to break you down.
741
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:58,229
Offering you money to give them
information.
742
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:00,469
They offered me 35,000.
743
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,949
But that's one thing you don't do.
744
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,709
You don't fucking talk in
Castlereagh.
745
00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:06,069
You give them'uns nothing.
746
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:07,949
You give them no information.
747
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,949
I was proud that I didn't, erm...
748
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,240
Didn't talk or tell anything.
749
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,240
You know?
750
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,320
They didn't get anything from me.
751
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,709
[DENISE]: As a young kid, I can
remember feeling
752
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:42,029
that constant awareness, you know?
753
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,749
Say nothing, talk to nobody...
754
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,920
...tell nobody anything.
755
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,309
- And it's so hard to think we lived like that...
- I know.
756
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:53,869
...you know?
757
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,669
I suppose sometimes I would go,
like,
758
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,309
"What were you thinking joining
at that time?"
759
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,189
But I can see it as an
adult now.
760
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,269
As a child you can't
because you just want to blend in.
761
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,109
But you can see... Money was tight.
You needed to do it.
762
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:07,949
You wanted to do something
for the country.
763
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,749
I've never, ever heard Denise's
view on it.
764
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:14,160
Never.
765
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,320
Did you not ask?
766
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,880
Is it because you haven't
asked, or is it just because...?
767
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,400
To be honest, I never thought
to ask.
768
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,600
I just... It was something I had to
do, and...
769
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,720
...it was something that the kids,
as I thought, understood.
770
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:43,789
But to ask them, really, how...
771
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,029
...youse felt...
772
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,229
- ...I feel ashamed now that I didn't.
- Och, Mum, no. No!
773
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:53,789
You know? I should have.
I should have realised,
774
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,709
but I didn't.
775
00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:59,720
I thought I was doing the best that
I could do.
776
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,029
Until this... Doing this here,
777
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,949
I couldn't even say...
778
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,549
...like, UDR, you know?
779
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,389
Because it's just...
780
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,029
I was so drilled not to say it,
you know? Army, UDR.
781
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,469
These are words
that I have only just started
782
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,040
in my vocabulary now in the sense
of openly talking about it.
783
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,229
I should be proud and able
to stand up and say,
784
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:31,109
"My mum was a Greenfinch."
785
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:32,789
I'm so proud of you.
786
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,029
And this is probably the first
time I've said it, you know,
787
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,360
really and truly, and not felt...
788
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,269
...fear for putting you at risk,
you know?
789
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,829
And we ought to be able to do
that in our life, you know,
790
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:48,669
and be proud of the people
we are,
791
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,389
proud of the families we come from,
proud of the risks,
792
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,829
yes, we take all of those things.
793
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,349
And now, hopefully we're at a time
where, you know, if something
794
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,880
was going to happen, it would
have happened, you know. I hope...
795
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,989
...that we're not putting ourselves
in any further risk by coming out
796
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,949
- and... - I don't think so...
- explaining how it is from our side,
797
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,949
from our side of the story,
because everybody's
798
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,189
got their own version of...
799
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,760
- Their own stuff, you know? - Mm-hm.
That's the truth.
800
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,949
[ANNEMARIE]: I was sentenced
to five years.
801
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,149
But when you go into jail, you sort
of just set your... Your mind.
802
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,669
You know, this is your life now,
803
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,229
and you just have to get on with it,
you know?
804
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:47,200
And the way you deal with that was
to block the kids out.
805
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,709
Sounds harsh, you know, erm,
806
00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:56,229
but you would be climbing the walls
and you would end
807
00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:58,640
up a nervous breakdown,
you know?
808
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,320
And you just had to get
on and do your time.
809
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,789
I'll always remember my first
visit with the kids.
810
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,840
I hadn't seen the kids in a couple
of months.
811
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,320
And one of the other prisoners
had, erm...
812
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,469
...a baby on her knee.
813
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,909
And I remember, it was...
814
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:35,309
...the wee loopy cardigans. It was
lilac and white, there was one,
815
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,909
and she had swarthy
skin and a wee loopy hat.
816
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:39,189
Gorgeous.
817
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,189
I remember...
818
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,549
I remember Donna saying,
"Look at my new wee baby."
819
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,189
And I said, "Oh, God,
she's gorgeous," you know?
820
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,720
And then...
821
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,069
...I realised it was my own child.
822
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,120
I didn't know her. Erm...
823
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:00,400
And that was hard.
824
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,349
That, you know, somebody
else was holding a child
825
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:06,880
that I had delivered...
826
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,680
...and fed,
that I didn't recognise her.
827
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,000
Erm...
828
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:17,200
...that was...
829
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,269
I was embarrassed, I was ashamed,
you know?
830
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,349
Everything was racing
through my head that I actually
831
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,709
didn't recognise my own child.
832
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:33,109
Erm, cos she had something on that..
833
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:34,840
...I hadn't bought her.
834
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,200
Erm, and after that I says...
835
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,189
..."I have to pull myself together
here," you know?
836
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,160
"Have to put that out of my head...
837
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:48,800
"...and move on from it."
838
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,760
But still to this day, you know...
839
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,749
...it pops up.
840
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,800
The lilac cardigan, and the
wee hat, and the wee baby.
841
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:01,240
You know?
842
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:04,589
Yeah.
843
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,080
That was the hardest.
844
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,949
Looking back now, I was probably
one of the lucky ones.
845
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:25,840
Prison probably saved me.
846
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:28,880
You know? I'm not dead.
847
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,840
You know? Look at how many
people died.
848
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,109
Friends had died, you know?
849
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,640
There's all that, "What if?"
850
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,789
You know? "This... This could have
helped her. That could have helped."
851
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:48,029
Yeah. The thing is, at least my kids
could come up and see me.
852
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:51,080
There's children who could never
see their parents again.
853
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,749
I never told my dad
that I loved him.
854
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,360
But my dad said to me one day...
855
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,589
...when he came in drunk one night,
856
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,440
and I used to take off his boots.
857
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,629
I think it was a Sunday
or something. Here's me,
858
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,349
"I'm going to bed too, I have to
get up for work in the morning",
859
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,509
and he just... As soon... I put him
in the bed and I
860
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,309
threw the blanket over him and,
861
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,749
I'm walking out the door and he just
turned around and
862
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:27,909
he says, "I love you."
863
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:29,949
And I should have turned around
and said it.
864
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:31,429
And I didn't.
865
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,589
And that's the regret I have.
866
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,080
Because I never got the opportunity
to say it to him.
867
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,349
I know my father was killed
as part of the dirty war.
868
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,429
Collusion, agents,
869
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,149
people working for the state.
870
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,040
That's just what happened.
871
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,149
And how did you piece all
this together?
872
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,029
How long did it take?
873
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,200
It took about 30 years...
874
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:05,789
...of...
875
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:06,920
...going to court...
876
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:12,469
...getting bits and pieces from other
people's reports, inquests.
877
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,600
But the biggest thing, the biggest
one, was the Police Ombudsman.
878
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,480
- OK.
- Thank you.
879
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,360
Is there any family
doesn't have a report?
880
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:40,520
I was very anxious.
881
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,629
I suppose you were filled
with apprehension
882
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,789
about what was going to be said
in it,
883
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:51,589
and I suppose there's a weight
on your shoulders where you knew
884
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,200
that for 30 years you've been
fighting for this day...
885
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,960
...and hoping that you get
the answers in it.
886
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:06,429
In Northern Ireland, the police
watchdog has found evidence of
887
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,349
collusive behaviour by police
in 11 murders
888
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,509
by Loyalist paramilitaries
in Belfast in the 1990s.
889
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,949
The inquiry examined the killings
of five people in a bookmaker's shop
890
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:18,720
and six other fatal shootings.
891
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,749
[ARCHIVE]: The Police Ombudsman found
failings and collusive behaviours
892
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,349
by RUC officers.
893
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,109
Intelligence had not been shared,
894
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,229
warnings had not been passed on,
895
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,109
weapons have been given
to Loyalist killers.
896
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,509
But the biggest amongst
them was how informants
897
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:36,829
were recruited and run.
898
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,269
They were providing information,
but they were also killing.
899
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,909
Eight individuals were identified
as agents.
900
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:47,360
Between them, they were linked to 27
murders and attempted murders.
901
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:50,789
I appreciate that you didn't
have anything to do
902
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,429
with the Sean Graham bookie's
case, but I do want to ask,
903
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,469
how did you deal with informants
that were breaking the law?
904
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,989
Well...
905
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,349
...I've had to make some very
difficult decisions sometimes,
906
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:07,669
but there's nobody going to tell an
agent, somebody you had recruited,
907
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,109
"I don't want your intelligence
because you stole
908
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,720
"from that old woman's house
last night," you know? I...
909
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,149
I mean, I do want that information.
910
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,829
Where would your line be?
Like, this ends now?
911
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,069
Well, if he's been out
and slaughtered individuals
912
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,469
and murdered and, you know,
he's beyond control, he's...
913
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,360
That would be your line?
914
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:31,389
Uh...
915
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,869
Again, I would have to weigh
up what I can get from him.
916
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,160
But, yeah, that would be very...
That would be a line, yeah.
917
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:48,720
It was all there on paper.
918
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,429
They armed them,
they recruited them,
919
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:54,760
and they actually...
920
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,600
...let people away with murder.
921
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,109
It makes me frustrated, angry.
922
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,029
But I'm not going to stop.
I'm not going to give up.
923
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,869
The next step
is to get the case reopened
924
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,920
and go after the killers.
925
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,269
I could name the three people
926
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,069
involved in Sean Graham's
bookmaker's.
927
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,189
And if we can work it out who pulled
the trigger and who drove the car,
928
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:25,869
the police must know.
929
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,949
Why, 30 years later,
are they still protecting
930
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:30,949
these Loyalist death squads?
931
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,469
And what is the PSNI going to do
about it?
932
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:34,520
Thank you.
933
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,949
I know who killed my father.
934
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:45,360
I know their names...
935
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:49,320
...and I've seen photographs of them.
936
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:52,600
And I know they know me.
937
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:56,069
But I would like my day in court.
938
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:57,869
I would like...
939
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,080
...their families to know
that they were murderers...
940
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,109
...and they killed my father.
941
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:07,069
A 54-year-old man who was shot
nine times
942
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,560
because he was a Roman Catholic.
943
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,709
I hope justice raps their door.
944
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:15,040
That's all I want.
945
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:36,269
And I want to make my daddy proud
of me for one last time.
946
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,080
It's all I want.
947
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,669
Blessed are the peacemakers.
948
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,509
The shouting and the cheering
and the yo-hoing.
949
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,429
"Oh, my God, there's an end coming
to this."
950
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,509
It can't be peace at any cost,
951
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:03,829
because then it's not really peace.
952
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,109
I just remember where I was.
953
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:07,429
I just remember who I was.
954
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:09,760
I remember the anger that I had.
955
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,349
Sometimes you need to stare
into the abyss to realise
956
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:15,120
that this can't go on.
957
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,920
To watch exclusive interviews about
the making of this series, visit...
958
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,960
...and follow the links
to the Open University.
74729
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