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I am reflective of myself.
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I'm acknowledging the
fact that in this process,
3
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I have been behaving...
4
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We... listen,
we've run out of time.
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I think you need a
behavioral therapist.
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I think this method of trying
to engage you in this kind of
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self-exploration is
just, like, not for you.
8
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So I'd like the two of
you to think about this,
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because I'm
worried that I'm, like,
10
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not doing good
work with you guys,
11
00:00:27,848 --> 00:00:29,468
so...
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But we would disagree with you.
13
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Okay.
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Okay, have a good one.
15
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Sean, you're about to get us
thrown out of getting help,
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- brother!
- Well...
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I kept trying to, like,
18
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figure out how to
extricate myself from the work,
19
00:00:54,668 --> 00:00:57,138
and I actually said to them
that I think I'm not the right
20
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therapist for them.
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Can you say why?
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I don't have the kind of
communication style that
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- can work with that man.
- Mm.
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- You surely do...
- Yeah, I think you do.
25
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But he's shutting
that part of you down.
26
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You have much more tenderness
27
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- than you are finding with him.
- Yeah.
28
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And I would wonder how
come he's shutting you down so
29
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effectively, that
you say, you know,
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"Go away!"
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Yeah, what's the
countertransference?
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What does it call up in you?
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Like, when people don't look
for the truth when they're using
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- words...
- - Mm-hm.
35
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But they're looking to
perform an operation,
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I... I'm rendered
kind of... useless!
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Okay, another approach.
38
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But I'm not asking
you yet for an approach!
39
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I'm asking do you understand
what it means to work with a
40
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patient who will not engage
with you therapeutically?!
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00:01:53,728 --> 00:01:56,368
He's gonna bring it eventually,
and you're gonna catch it.
42
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But you're telling me
something to give me hope,
43
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that something could
happen in the future.
44
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Well, have you seen them since?
45
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- That... that's why...
- You are not joining me!
46
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I'm asking you to go to a
really difficult place!
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That's what I'm saying!
48
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I guess I'd wanna
know about his childhood,
49
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because it must come from
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a more formative relationship,
51
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and it must go far back.
52
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Yeah, but...
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It seems like we are all
finding empathy with him.
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For him, yeah.
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And not so difficult for us,
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- in a funny way.
- - Right.
57
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I mean, you have
to meet with them again.
58
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And he knows...
59
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- that the stakes are high.
- Mm-hm.
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So what's he gonna do?
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Maybe you can ignore him.
62
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Yeah, maybe you
should focus on Erica.
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Mm-hm.
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Just make him the witness.
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He should get his
space, sit there quietly,
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and you're just with her.
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He's gonna want to
come in probably,
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- somehow.
- - Mm-hm.
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00:02:50,618 --> 00:02:55,548
Curious ambient music.
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Well, we took your advice...
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Mm-hm.
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To, um, seek out
separate therapy sessions.
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Meaning you did it already?
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- Mm-hm.
- - Yes.
75
00:03:30,868 --> 00:03:32,958
- Excellent.
- - Yes.
76
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And, um, I think I... it was
uncovered that I want to...
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just be peaceful and unbothered.
78
00:03:40,668 --> 00:03:42,808
Um, I feel like I have a
lot of things that are...
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00:03:43,008 --> 00:03:44,808
things that
trigger me, my anger...
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I just wanna be
like, "You know what?"
81
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Out of my control."
82
00:03:48,718 --> 00:03:52,648
It sounds like you're
saying what you arrived at
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as a beginning goal is
for things outside of you
84
00:03:57,358 --> 00:03:59,488
to not affect you?
85
00:03:59,688 --> 00:04:01,278
Yes.
86
00:04:04,618 --> 00:04:06,158
How'd yours go?
87
00:04:06,358 --> 00:04:06,998
Mine went fine.
88
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It was a very good conversation.
89
00:04:10,868 --> 00:04:13,838
I think in the case of us,
90
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the biggest problem is
that I'm not a priority.
91
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Mm-hm.
92
00:04:19,418 --> 00:04:21,508
I know he takes it as
he's not a priority,
93
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but I didn't have to be
accountable for anyone except
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00:04:23,548 --> 00:04:27,848
for Erica for a long time, so it
was never how I had to reach out
95
00:04:28,048 --> 00:04:29,864
to make su... like, I never
had to call my mom like,
96
00:04:29,888 --> 00:04:31,688
"Mom, wanna let
you know I'm safe!"
97
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Like, I never did that.
98
00:04:33,718 --> 00:04:35,358
She didn't wanna
know where you are?
99
00:04:35,558 --> 00:04:36,858
Um...
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00:04:37,058 --> 00:04:39,698
she told me, "Erica, when
you were very, very young",
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I knew that I didn't
have to worry about you."
102
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Because?
103
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She says because
when she had me,
104
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I was premature, and...
105
00:04:50,568 --> 00:04:51,708
How premature?
106
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- About a month.
- Mm-hm.
107
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And so when I was
released, my mom,
108
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in her mind, had determined that
I was forever gonna be okay.
109
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"She's got it; I knew she
was gonna be okay."
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00:05:03,088 --> 00:05:07,218
However, my sibling, he
became diabetic when, uh,
111
00:05:07,428 --> 00:05:08,888
he was in the first grade.
112
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Oh...
113
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So he has been
ill his whole entire life.
114
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So her attention...
115
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- Went to him.
- Has always been on him.
116
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It's never been on me
as a child to an adult.
117
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So...
118
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And so I think
I've always just...
119
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I assumed I'd always be okay?
120
00:05:31,778 --> 00:05:35,288
Well, I guess
maybe you assumed...
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you were gonna be okay
or you learned not to pay
122
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attention when you're not okay.
123
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Absolutely.
124
00:05:43,258 --> 00:05:45,928
That's why you'll go to
a therapist now and say you need
125
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to find a way to not feel
when things are not okay.
126
00:05:51,348 --> 00:05:54,938
So you're continuing
your NICU experience.
127
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Whatever's not okay you're
just not gonna pay attention to.
128
00:05:59,138 --> 00:06:01,448
- But then, lo and behold...
- That's exactly what I feel.
129
00:06:01,648 --> 00:06:03,278
When you're upset,
you get really upset.
130
00:06:03,478 --> 00:06:04,478
Yes.
131
00:06:04,608 --> 00:06:05,794
That's what I've
been talking about:
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The reoccurring conversation.
133
00:06:08,318 --> 00:06:09,624
- It's not...
- But just to say something
134
00:06:09,648 --> 00:06:11,788
about what Erica just told us...
135
00:06:11,988 --> 00:06:12,388
Mm-hm.
136
00:06:12,588 --> 00:06:17,628
When you're asked to
be the one that is okay,
137
00:06:17,828 --> 00:06:21,128
all those other
things that are...
138
00:06:21,328 --> 00:06:25,008
suppressed or
dissociated or pushed aside,
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they don't go away.
140
00:06:29,138 --> 00:06:32,518
Well, I guess my only
outlet has been anger.
141
00:06:32,718 --> 00:06:34,098
- Right.
- So I think I...
142
00:06:34,298 --> 00:06:37,308
Well, you're probably pretty
pissed off about taking that
143
00:06:37,518 --> 00:06:38,818
role in the family.
144
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- Absolutely!
- - Yeah.
145
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But I see it spewing itself in
other pockets that I don't...
146
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Meaning you're suppressing it
somewhere here and it's showing
147
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- up over there.
- - Right.
148
00:06:49,358 --> 00:06:50,638
Because that's what feelings do;
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They just refuse
to just go away.
150
00:06:52,858 --> 00:06:54,158
Mm-hm.
151
00:06:54,368 --> 00:06:56,168
So I have to process them?
152
00:06:56,368 --> 00:06:57,368
- Uh-huh.
- Mm-hm.
153
00:06:58,408 --> 00:06:59,168
Okay.
154
00:06:59,368 --> 00:07:00,498
Confront them?
155
00:07:00,698 --> 00:07:02,008
Well, the idea is, first of all,
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to know how you're actually
feeling about things that are
157
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- happening.
- - Mm-hm.
158
00:07:05,538 --> 00:07:06,678
Things that matter.
159
00:07:06,878 --> 00:07:08,678
And in terms of
between the two of you,
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the tiny bit of work I've been
trying to do with you is to find
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a way for the two of you to
process things that bother you
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between you.
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I think the two of you don't
really know how to do that.
164
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Well, it's because I
don't have a place to place
165
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- my...
- Mm-hm.
166
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My feelings, my
anger, my frustrations,
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or whatever it is
I'm processing.
168
00:07:29,068 --> 00:07:31,538
I would assume you don't
actually know what's bothering
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you.
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00:07:33,068 --> 00:07:33,698
Mm-hm.
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00:07:33,898 --> 00:07:35,578
- I don't.
- - Mm-hm.
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I mean, that's a good
thing to work on in therapy.
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Mm-hm.
174
00:07:39,758 --> 00:07:42,708
How do you think
you felt at the NICU?
175
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I probably felt...
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- alone.
- - Mm-hm.
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Unattended to.
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- If I were to guess.
- - Yeah.
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You think that can
resonate as a child as an adult?
180
00:07:57,928 --> 00:08:00,308
- Mm-hm.
- - Mm!
181
00:08:09,938 --> 00:08:12,908
I try not to depend
on people at all,
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um, 'cause I feel like I
would probably get let down
183
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or disappointed.
184
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Um...
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so maybe I've always pigeonholed
myself into being alone.
186
00:08:23,288 --> 00:08:24,758
- Mm-hm.
- Always!
187
00:08:24,958 --> 00:08:28,048
- And I didn't even know that.
- - Mm-hm.
188
00:08:29,378 --> 00:08:32,468
I don't sit and cry
with my girlfriends or...
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talk about sorrows or
talk about disappointments.
190
00:08:34,968 --> 00:08:36,598
- Like, that's not...
- And with Sean?
191
00:08:36,798 --> 00:08:37,878
- I'm sorry?
- - With Sean?
192
00:08:37,968 --> 00:08:39,638
Mm-mm.
193
00:08:41,388 --> 00:08:42,938
What do you think, Sean?
194
00:08:43,138 --> 00:08:46,108
I mean, when she
breaks down in front of me,
195
00:08:46,308 --> 00:08:48,228
I'm there to hold her,
I'm there to support her,
196
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I'm there to listen.
197
00:08:49,858 --> 00:08:52,948
But it's not something that
she... that she voluntarily comes
198
00:08:53,148 --> 00:08:56,118
to me to confide
in, to be vulnerable,
199
00:08:56,318 --> 00:08:58,174
- to express her feelings.
- - Do you wish she did?
200
00:08:58,198 --> 00:08:58,638
Absolutely!
201
00:08:58,838 --> 00:09:02,288
It's been one of the main
things that, like...
202
00:09:02,488 --> 00:09:04,804
allows me to have a much better
understanding of what you're
203
00:09:04,828 --> 00:09:07,628
- going through.
- Mm-hm.
204
00:09:07,828 --> 00:09:09,508
That's good information for you.
205
00:09:09,708 --> 00:09:11,138
Yeah.
206
00:09:11,338 --> 00:09:14,468
All right,
we've run out of time.
207
00:09:14,668 --> 00:09:16,468
I will see you next week.
208
00:09:16,668 --> 00:09:18,308
- Okay.
- Okay!
209
00:09:18,508 --> 00:09:19,808
That's good news.
210
00:09:23,508 --> 00:09:28,518
Energetic synth music.
211
00:10:06,308 --> 00:10:09,398
We got in a fight over texting.
212
00:10:09,598 --> 00:10:10,148
Over?
213
00:10:10,348 --> 00:10:12,698
- Oh, just, like...
- Finding a dog sitter
214
00:10:12,898 --> 00:10:14,374
- for our trip.
- - Finding a dog sitter.
215
00:10:14,398 --> 00:10:16,368
Like, I said I was
gonna handle it,
216
00:10:16,568 --> 00:10:20,198
and I wasn't handling it the way
that she thought was the best
217
00:10:20,398 --> 00:10:21,708
way...
218
00:10:21,908 --> 00:10:26,208
um, and so she... I felt like
she kind of came at me.
219
00:10:26,408 --> 00:10:29,048
I was like, "Whoa, like, why are
you... why are you getting worked"
220
00:10:29,248 --> 00:10:30,248
up over this?"
221
00:10:30,408 --> 00:10:32,378
And then that was
triggering for her,
222
00:10:32,578 --> 00:10:34,218
because I think you
said something like,
223
00:10:34,418 --> 00:10:35,894
- "Every Mormon man..."
- You always say that.
224
00:10:35,918 --> 00:10:37,394
You always say, "Why
are you so emotional?"
225
00:10:37,418 --> 00:10:37,948
Why are you
getting so worked up?"
226
00:10:38,148 --> 00:10:41,228
It's like, I'm just explaining
a situation and a problem!
227
00:10:41,428 --> 00:10:43,728
Kristi, it's the
way that you do it, though!
228
00:10:43,928 --> 00:10:45,728
Brock, I don't know
what to tell you, dude!
229
00:10:45,928 --> 00:10:47,728
It's just like,
look, I'm sorry, like,
230
00:10:47,928 --> 00:10:50,398
I have looked back at the
texts that I sent this morning,
231
00:10:50,598 --> 00:10:52,958
and, like, I don't know how
else I could have worded them.
232
00:10:53,098 --> 00:10:54,448
You said,
233
00:10:54,648 --> 00:10:57,908
"Brock, you're fucking us over
because you're too cheap..."
234
00:10:58,108 --> 00:10:58,658
- Yes!
- "To do x, y, z!"
235
00:10:58,858 --> 00:11:01,084
Yes, we're up a creek, we are
trying to find a dog sitter...
236
00:11:01,108 --> 00:11:02,424
- We're... we're not...
- For nine days...
237
00:11:02,448 --> 00:11:03,578
- Kristi...
- In a week...
238
00:11:03,778 --> 00:11:05,078
- and...
- But Kristi...
239
00:11:05,278 --> 00:11:07,418
And you're offering
your cousin 200 dollars?!
240
00:11:07,618 --> 00:11:10,418
- Kristi, we're not up a creek!
- -
241
00:11:10,618 --> 00:11:13,128
Like, it's not
the end of the world!
242
00:11:13,328 --> 00:11:17,928
So, but what you're
trying to say to Kristi is...?
243
00:11:18,128 --> 00:11:21,928
If we get in a fight like
this, I sit back and I'm like,
244
00:11:22,128 --> 00:11:26,998
"Why do I continue
to entertain this..."
245
00:11:27,198 --> 00:11:31,108
like, this dynamic when, like...
246
00:11:31,308 --> 00:11:33,108
"she's already hurt me so bad?"
247
00:11:33,308 --> 00:11:34,818
It's just like...
248
00:11:35,018 --> 00:11:36,108
I always fall back to that.
249
00:11:36,308 --> 00:11:38,448
- Like, why am I...
- why am I...
250
00:11:38,648 --> 00:11:40,124
- "Putting up with her?"
- Putting up with this?
251
00:11:40,148 --> 00:11:41,624
- Just say it.
- Not her, like, this.
252
00:11:41,648 --> 00:11:42,964
- Like, why am I putting up...
- What did you say, Kristi?
253
00:11:42,988 --> 00:11:43,448
- Why am I...
- "Her."
254
00:11:43,648 --> 00:11:45,648
He's like, "Why am I
putting up with this bitch,"
255
00:11:45,698 --> 00:11:47,134
- basically, you know?
- -That is not the thought.
256
00:11:47,158 --> 00:11:48,458
- That is not...
- Mm...
257
00:11:48,658 --> 00:11:49,788
The thought, though.
258
00:11:49,988 --> 00:11:51,628
What is the thought?
259
00:11:51,828 --> 00:11:54,458
I don't like it when
you talk to me like that!
260
00:11:54,668 --> 00:11:56,088
It escalates things!
261
00:11:56,288 --> 00:11:58,728
Like, it makes things way more
intense than they need to be,
262
00:11:58,838 --> 00:12:00,138
and it turns it into a fight,
263
00:12:00,338 --> 00:12:02,308
and then I'm not
connected with you!
264
00:12:02,508 --> 00:12:03,984
And I don't want to
be connected with you!
265
00:12:04,008 --> 00:12:06,308
Fine, then
don't be connected with me.
266
00:12:06,508 --> 00:12:08,688
Like, I just, like,
don't know what to do.
267
00:12:08,888 --> 00:12:11,148
- Do you... but...
-
268
00:12:12,078 --> 00:12:15,318
I'm torn between addressing
this kind of surface level
269
00:12:15,518 --> 00:12:20,198
communication, but it sounds
like you're also sitting on
270
00:12:20,398 --> 00:12:24,158
the betrayal you've felt, and
need to work something out
271
00:12:24,358 --> 00:12:27,698
further about what happened.
272
00:12:29,158 --> 00:12:33,498
I'll be honest, Orna, like, I
don't know what else could be
273
00:12:33,698 --> 00:12:35,958
said or explained.
274
00:12:36,378 --> 00:12:39,508
She's explained it in
so many different ways.
275
00:12:39,708 --> 00:12:43,678
And are there some things
that she has said that I wish I,
276
00:12:43,878 --> 00:12:45,518
like, had not heard?
277
00:12:45,718 --> 00:12:46,518
Yes.
278
00:12:46,718 --> 00:12:47,138
What do you mean?
279
00:12:47,338 --> 00:12:51,188
Like, there was one
time where I asked, like,
280
00:12:51,388 --> 00:12:54,018
"If things had
gone well with him,
281
00:12:54,218 --> 00:12:56,858
would you still be with him?"
282
00:12:57,058 --> 00:12:59,818
And you said, "Probably, yeah."
283
00:13:02,818 --> 00:13:05,868
You're... like, I
don't know what to do...
284
00:13:06,068 --> 00:13:07,538
Brock, here's the thing...
285
00:13:07,738 --> 00:13:08,868
What's happening right now?
286
00:13:10,928 --> 00:13:14,378
I feel like you put me between a
rock and a hard place sometimes,
287
00:13:14,578 --> 00:13:17,418
'cause you're always asking
me these hypotheticals...
288
00:13:17,618 --> 00:13:18,258
"What if this had happened?"
289
00:13:18,458 --> 00:13:19,218
What if that had happened?
290
00:13:19,418 --> 00:13:20,178
What if this had happened?"...
291
00:13:20,378 --> 00:13:21,888
And I don't wanna patronize you,
292
00:13:22,088 --> 00:13:25,058
I wanna be honest,
but I also don't know!
293
00:13:25,258 --> 00:13:27,558
So then I'm as
honest as I can be,
294
00:13:27,758 --> 00:13:29,728
and then you're hurt!
295
00:13:29,928 --> 00:13:31,268
- But it is hurtful.
- I know!
296
00:13:31,468 --> 00:13:33,228
But, like, I don't...
Like, I don't know!
297
00:13:33,428 --> 00:13:35,548
- So, like, if anything, I...
- But that is the truth!
298
00:13:35,598 --> 00:13:36,148
Yeah!
299
00:13:36,348 --> 00:13:40,068
- Like, literally I don't know!
- -But it is hurtful, and...
300
00:13:40,268 --> 00:13:41,268
- listen!
- -
301
00:13:41,438 --> 00:13:43,738
So that's what's going on.
302
00:13:43,938 --> 00:13:47,578
You wanna be
honest, which is brave...
303
00:13:47,778 --> 00:13:49,408
Yeah, but it
always fucks me over!
304
00:13:49,608 --> 00:13:52,078
It doesn't fuck you over,
it means you have to bear the
305
00:13:52,278 --> 00:13:53,788
consequences!
306
00:13:53,988 --> 00:13:55,418
I know!
307
00:13:55,618 --> 00:13:58,258
It's like you wanna be honest
but you can't stand what's
308
00:13:58,458 --> 00:14:00,878
coming back at you.
309
00:14:03,208 --> 00:14:05,928
Let's stay with what was
said between the two of you,
310
00:14:06,128 --> 00:14:07,814
and if there's
something you wanna retract,
311
00:14:07,838 --> 00:14:09,888
then retract it!
312
00:14:11,058 --> 00:14:13,468
Can you keep going?
313
00:14:14,598 --> 00:14:18,778
I have not been a
very trusting person.
314
00:14:18,978 --> 00:14:20,778
- Like, I have never been...
- - Mm-hm.
315
00:14:20,978 --> 00:14:22,778
- An incredibly trusting person.
- - Mm-hm.
316
00:14:22,978 --> 00:14:25,448
And I...
317
00:14:25,648 --> 00:14:30,578
don't feel like I was...
318
00:14:31,368 --> 00:14:33,788
- chosen.
- - Mm-hm.
319
00:14:33,988 --> 00:14:36,288
Like, kind of I was like
a pretty-sturdy backup.
320
00:14:36,488 --> 00:14:37,058
Mm-hm.
321
00:14:37,258 --> 00:14:41,338
So in your mind, this other
person became your competitor,
322
00:14:41,538 --> 00:14:43,838
and you didn't really
win the competition,
323
00:14:44,038 --> 00:14:46,138
he lost, but you didn't win.
324
00:14:46,338 --> 00:14:46,928
Yeah.
325
00:14:47,128 --> 00:14:50,968
And, like, maybe part of the
reason why I'm so interested in
326
00:14:51,168 --> 00:14:55,148
this idea of, like, opening the
relationship and us going our
327
00:14:55,348 --> 00:14:57,808
separate ways and coming
back is because, like,
328
00:14:58,018 --> 00:15:00,648
maybe that means we actually...
329
00:15:00,848 --> 00:15:03,648
kinda, like, re-chose.
330
00:15:03,848 --> 00:15:06,488
What's your reaction, Kristi?
331
00:15:06,688 --> 00:15:09,658
So he was never a competition.
332
00:15:09,858 --> 00:15:13,658
Like, there was not any...
Like, it was a one-off.
333
00:15:13,858 --> 00:15:16,328
And then it's frustrating
because I feel like
334
00:15:16,528 --> 00:15:21,458
I did choose you, I do choose
you, and I have proven that...
335
00:15:21,748 --> 00:15:23,338
every day for the
past two years...
336
00:15:23,538 --> 00:15:25,218
- I...
- I prove it all the time...
337
00:15:25,418 --> 00:15:28,348
But... I get what you're
saying, but for Brock,
338
00:15:28,548 --> 00:15:31,518
it meant something else; You
introduced another person in
339
00:15:31,718 --> 00:15:35,518
there that meant something
to him about his own
340
00:15:35,718 --> 00:15:38,898
way of experiencing the world,
and competition is...
341
00:15:39,098 --> 00:15:40,518
a serious thing.
342
00:15:40,718 --> 00:15:42,528
You can't both
introduce it and then say,
343
00:15:42,728 --> 00:15:46,358
"But I don't wanna deal
with what it's doing to you."
344
00:15:46,558 --> 00:15:49,368
It's not even that, but it's
just like I feel like I'm at a
345
00:15:49,568 --> 00:15:51,538
loss for how to help him.
346
00:15:51,738 --> 00:15:53,038
Mm-hm.
347
00:15:53,238 --> 00:15:57,038
So Brock, you said about
yourself that you're not
348
00:15:57,238 --> 00:15:59,538
- trusting in general?
- - Yeah.
349
00:15:59,738 --> 00:16:00,878
Can you say more about that?
350
00:16:01,078 --> 00:16:04,048
Um, yeah, like I...
351
00:16:04,248 --> 00:16:07,718
I think my first true
relationship experience was,
352
00:16:07,918 --> 00:16:10,718
- uh, kind of a love triangle.
- Mm-hm.
353
00:16:10,918 --> 00:16:13,218
I felt like she
kind of put me into one.
354
00:16:13,418 --> 00:16:13,828
Mm-hm.
355
00:16:14,028 --> 00:16:16,728
And they really
enjoyed watching me compete.
356
00:16:16,928 --> 00:16:17,728
Mm-hm.
357
00:16:17,928 --> 00:16:19,558
So that was sort
of the template,
358
00:16:19,758 --> 00:16:21,898
- the first template?
- Yeah, yeah.
359
00:16:22,098 --> 00:16:24,228
Mm-hm, very tough.
360
00:16:24,428 --> 00:16:26,068
How many siblings are you?
361
00:16:26,268 --> 00:16:27,568
Oldest of three.
362
00:16:27,768 --> 00:16:30,238
Was one of you favored?
363
00:16:30,438 --> 00:16:31,914
- Uh, my brother.
- - He was favored?
364
00:16:31,938 --> 00:16:33,238
Well, favored by my parents?
365
00:16:33,438 --> 00:16:34,238
No.
366
00:16:34,438 --> 00:16:36,248
But favored by genetics maybe.
367
00:16:36,448 --> 00:16:38,418
Like, I was always a
little more pudgier.
368
00:16:38,618 --> 00:16:39,418
Mm-hm.
369
00:16:39,618 --> 00:16:40,658
Uh, I had really bad acne.
370
00:16:40,778 --> 00:16:41,778
Mm-hm.
371
00:16:41,828 --> 00:16:45,128
My brother was
more of an athlete.
372
00:16:45,328 --> 00:16:47,088
So he was, like, better looking?
373
00:16:47,288 --> 00:16:48,428
Yeah, I would say so.
374
00:16:48,628 --> 00:16:49,088
As a kid.
375
00:16:49,288 --> 00:16:51,428
My brother got his first kiss
376
00:16:51,628 --> 00:16:53,098
- before I did.
- - Uh-huh.
377
00:16:53,298 --> 00:16:55,428
- So we always joke, like...
- Yeah.
378
00:16:55,628 --> 00:16:57,598
I had to go to my
younger brother to f... like,
379
00:16:57,798 --> 00:16:58,808
"Dude, what was it like?"
380
00:16:59,008 --> 00:17:00,438
Mm-hm, mm-hm.
381
00:17:00,638 --> 00:17:01,208
You know?
382
00:17:01,408 --> 00:17:05,278
And so that's why, like, I think
my first relationship was so
383
00:17:05,478 --> 00:17:07,938
devastating was
'cause I was still
384
00:17:08,148 --> 00:17:11,318
really in the throes of what
I would consider just...
385
00:17:11,518 --> 00:17:13,158
I just looked...
386
00:17:13,358 --> 00:17:15,328
- really bad.
- - Mm-hm.
387
00:17:15,528 --> 00:17:18,118
So that might be one of the...
388
00:17:18,318 --> 00:17:22,288
old stories that's
getting reworked here.
389
00:17:22,488 --> 00:17:24,078
Yeah.
390
00:17:25,418 --> 00:17:28,878
Where are you,
Kristi, listening to this?
391
00:17:29,338 --> 00:17:34,468
I feel like there's a
chance to rewrite the past now,
392
00:17:34,668 --> 00:17:37,308
but...
393
00:17:37,508 --> 00:17:39,978
we're missing each other.
394
00:17:40,178 --> 00:17:42,478
And I'm trying to say, like...
395
00:17:42,678 --> 00:17:45,268
"I really love you."
396
00:17:47,268 --> 00:17:50,228
"And I really love us."
397
00:17:54,148 --> 00:17:57,868
I just want you to believe that.
398
00:17:59,828 --> 00:18:04,908
Tender ambient music.
399
00:18:34,988 --> 00:18:36,698
With Christine and Nadine,
400
00:18:36,898 --> 00:18:41,038
what I did learn was
that Nadine always felt
401
00:18:41,238 --> 00:18:43,368
- displaced, homeless.
- - Yeah.
402
00:18:43,568 --> 00:18:46,038
Her life has
always felt to her...
403
00:18:46,238 --> 00:18:49,418
chasing her impulses, chaos,
404
00:18:49,618 --> 00:18:53,048
and she made a philosophy
out of that way of living.
405
00:18:53,248 --> 00:18:56,048
Although it's a
little thin, that philosophy,
406
00:18:56,248 --> 00:18:58,558
'cause she's also lost.
407
00:18:58,758 --> 00:19:00,098
Yeah.
408
00:19:00,298 --> 00:19:04,388
But my worry is that, indeed,
Nadine is now hitching herself
409
00:19:04,588 --> 00:19:06,908
to a new relationship with
the hope that she'll find a new
410
00:19:07,098 --> 00:19:08,518
- home...
- - Yeah.
411
00:19:08,718 --> 00:19:12,238
And that she's, like,
now under the spell of that,
412
00:19:12,438 --> 00:19:14,238
in which case...
413
00:19:14,438 --> 00:19:16,238
there's nothing I can do.
414
00:19:16,438 --> 00:19:21,238
Gentle ambient music
415
00:19:21,438 --> 00:19:26,038
softly humming.
416
00:19:26,328 --> 00:19:29,588
So how have the two of you been?
417
00:19:29,788 --> 00:19:31,588
- We've been... you can talk.
- - Um...
418
00:19:31,788 --> 00:19:33,088
it's been a little rough.
419
00:19:33,288 --> 00:19:34,418
Um...
420
00:19:34,618 --> 00:19:35,934
I will say after that
session, though, I, like,
421
00:19:35,958 --> 00:19:37,118
- slept really well.
- Mm-hm.
422
00:19:37,168 --> 00:19:39,098
- So that was nice.
- Interesting.
423
00:19:39,298 --> 00:19:41,018
Yeah, I feel like we
pulled on something...
424
00:19:41,168 --> 00:19:41,488
Mm-hm.
425
00:19:41,688 --> 00:19:43,768
And it undid the
whole sweater, yeah.
426
00:19:43,968 --> 00:19:44,768
Do you know what it was?
427
00:19:44,968 --> 00:19:46,638
What was the thread?
428
00:19:46,848 --> 00:19:49,438
Um, I don't think I
was recognizing how, like,
429
00:19:49,638 --> 00:19:51,938
frustrated I was
with the relationship,
430
00:19:52,138 --> 00:19:53,438
or even just with myself.
431
00:19:53,638 --> 00:19:58,508
Um, I feel honestly like I've
lied to myself for most...
432
00:19:58,708 --> 00:20:02,288
Like, most always, and I
feel like that thread was, like,
433
00:20:02,488 --> 00:20:03,948
this, like, thread of truth,
434
00:20:04,148 --> 00:20:05,464
and then, like, the
whole thing just, like,
435
00:20:05,488 --> 00:20:06,788
ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch.
436
00:20:06,988 --> 00:20:07,988
Yeah.
437
00:20:08,158 --> 00:20:09,628
Any thoughts?
438
00:20:09,828 --> 00:20:12,128
So I think those realizations...
439
00:20:12,328 --> 00:20:13,634
Well, I don't wanna
really speak for you.
440
00:20:13,658 --> 00:20:15,128
We ended up...
441
00:20:15,328 --> 00:20:19,468
We're breaking up, essentially,
or trying to figure out how to
442
00:20:19,668 --> 00:20:22,308
decouple in a ethical way.
443
00:20:22,508 --> 00:20:23,638
Um...
444
00:20:23,838 --> 00:20:26,018
she asked me if I felt
like I was in love with her,
445
00:20:26,218 --> 00:20:27,848
and I said, "Well, I don't know.
446
00:20:28,048 --> 00:20:29,648
Like, I don't... I don't know."
447
00:20:29,848 --> 00:20:33,148
Um, I haven't necessarily felt
that... we haven't felt that in a
448
00:20:33,348 --> 00:20:33,878
while.
449
00:20:34,078 --> 00:20:37,148
I guess what Nadine also
said is she's not sure if she's
450
00:20:37,348 --> 00:20:40,158
polyamorous anymore, and
she's not sure if she can manage
451
00:20:40,358 --> 00:20:41,678
- being...
- I feel very confused.
452
00:20:41,858 --> 00:20:42,408
Mm-hm.
453
00:20:42,608 --> 00:20:45,658
So I was like, "Okay, we've...
Our entire relationship has"
454
00:20:45,858 --> 00:20:48,158
revolved around
non-monogamy and polyamory,
455
00:20:48,368 --> 00:20:51,328
and I feel that you have used
polyamory as a vehicle to leave
456
00:20:51,528 --> 00:20:52,918
"me."
457
00:20:53,118 --> 00:20:54,338
And I'm mad!
458
00:20:54,538 --> 00:20:56,008
- I'm really mad!
- - Mm-hm.
459
00:20:56,208 --> 00:20:58,338
- I'm disappointed!
- Mm-hm.
460
00:20:58,538 --> 00:21:00,508
I don't know if I
need to move out,
461
00:21:00,708 --> 00:21:05,058
um, and I don't have enough to
try to find a new place to live
462
00:21:05,258 --> 00:21:07,848
and maintain our rent, so
I don't know if we should, like,
463
00:21:08,048 --> 00:21:09,518
push through it and...
464
00:21:09,718 --> 00:21:11,228
I'm Team Push
Through It, personally.
465
00:21:11,428 --> 00:21:12,508
"Push through it" means...
466
00:21:12,558 --> 00:21:13,688
I just feel like we're...
467
00:21:13,888 --> 00:21:15,074
Stay living under
the same roof...
468
00:21:15,098 --> 00:21:15,688
- Yeah.
- Until...?
469
00:21:15,888 --> 00:21:18,358
- Until the lease is up.
- So it's like three more months.
470
00:21:18,558 --> 00:21:19,698
So one option is to stay,
471
00:21:19,898 --> 00:21:21,568
and the other option is?
472
00:21:21,768 --> 00:21:23,238
To m... mo... like...
473
00:21:23,438 --> 00:21:25,084
To figure out how to cancel the
lease and then each move out.
474
00:21:25,108 --> 00:21:26,108
- Mm-hm.
- And my l...
475
00:21:26,238 --> 00:21:29,078
I have, like, zero f...
I'm, like, fi...
476
00:21:29,278 --> 00:21:31,748
My life, aside from this,
is in shambles.
477
00:21:31,948 --> 00:21:33,708
I need to, like, get
my situation together.
478
00:21:33,908 --> 00:21:35,224
What's happening with your life?
479
00:21:35,248 --> 00:21:37,378
I have no fina... I... everything,
480
00:21:37,578 --> 00:21:38,718
everything got fucked up.
481
00:21:38,918 --> 00:21:39,548
- I don't...
- Tell me.
482
00:21:39,748 --> 00:21:41,928
Um...
483
00:21:42,128 --> 00:21:44,718
um...
484
00:21:45,918 --> 00:21:48,058
So simultaneously
to all of this,
485
00:21:48,258 --> 00:21:52,398
I, um... I've always worked in my
fam... with my family and my dad
486
00:21:52,598 --> 00:21:54,444
- and all of that, and then...
- What kind of work is that?
487
00:21:54,468 --> 00:21:55,468
Um...
488
00:21:55,598 --> 00:21:57,568
car... like, cars
and stuff like that.
489
00:21:57,768 --> 00:22:01,068
But moving to New York, I
stopped working for my family.
490
00:22:01,268 --> 00:22:03,068
This is also when I came out,
491
00:22:03,268 --> 00:22:06,908
and then that totally unravelled
492
00:22:07,108 --> 00:22:09,448
- my family dynamic, and then...
- How so?
493
00:22:09,648 --> 00:22:10,748
Um...
494
00:22:10,948 --> 00:22:14,748
with my dad, it's just,
like, gone totally...
495
00:22:14,948 --> 00:22:17,418
um, yeah, no, he
doesn't... at this point,
496
00:22:17,618 --> 00:22:19,418
doesn't wanna have a
relationship with me,
497
00:22:19,618 --> 00:22:20,128
and, um...
498
00:22:20,328 --> 00:22:22,528
He doesn't wanna have a
relationship with you since you
499
00:22:22,628 --> 00:22:23,428
came out?
500
00:22:23,628 --> 00:22:24,828
So for him, it's all together,
501
00:22:24,958 --> 00:22:28,138
because, like, I moved here,
then I "became gay'..."
502
00:22:28,338 --> 00:22:29,928
Because I just
became gay, right?
503
00:22:30,128 --> 00:22:30,888
Uh-huh.
504
00:22:31,088 --> 00:22:32,978
So in his eyes, I'm not working,
505
00:22:33,178 --> 00:22:36,438
I'm doing drugs, I've
literally lost my mind,
506
00:22:36,638 --> 00:22:39,438
um, and now I'm
with a woman and...
507
00:22:39,638 --> 00:22:42,608
So I'm, like, trying to, like,
put pieces back together while
508
00:22:42,808 --> 00:22:44,158
this is all happening.
509
00:22:44,358 --> 00:22:46,948
It sounds like a crisis.
510
00:22:47,148 --> 00:22:47,948
Oh, big time.
511
00:22:48,148 --> 00:22:49,618
- Yeah.
- -
512
00:22:49,818 --> 00:22:52,118
- Yeah.
- -
513
00:22:52,318 --> 00:22:54,638
Yeah, so our last conversation
was he didn't wanna have a
514
00:22:54,698 --> 00:22:56,168
relationship.
515
00:22:56,368 --> 00:22:58,458
He was, like, night
and day different.
516
00:22:58,658 --> 00:22:59,088
How so?
517
00:22:59,288 --> 00:23:01,968
Um, he was, like... he's,
like, the sweetest dad.
518
00:23:02,168 --> 00:23:03,474
- He was, like...
- You were special to him?
519
00:23:03,498 --> 00:23:04,678
I'm his only daughter, yeah.
520
00:23:04,878 --> 00:23:05,974
And, like, if I
walked in the room,
521
00:23:05,998 --> 00:23:07,144
- his whole face lit up.
- - Mm-hm.
522
00:23:07,168 --> 00:23:08,468
Like, everyone knew, like...
523
00:23:08,668 --> 00:23:10,348
And he called me "Flower"...
524
00:23:10,548 --> 00:23:12,728
And now, it's like...
525
00:23:12,928 --> 00:23:16,978
As if that, like, never was
even, like, real or anything,
526
00:23:17,178 --> 00:23:20,188
'cause it feels not real
because the minute I veer from
527
00:23:20,388 --> 00:23:20,978
- the course...
- Mm-hm,
528
00:23:21,178 --> 00:23:22,438
meaning it's conditional.
529
00:23:22,638 --> 00:23:24,664
Total... like, the most
transactional and conditional
530
00:23:24,688 --> 00:23:25,858
love ever.
531
00:23:26,058 --> 00:23:28,198
- Yeah, very confusing.
- - Mm-hm.
532
00:23:28,398 --> 00:23:30,488
And you're describing a
relationship in which,
533
00:23:30,688 --> 00:23:33,498
first of all, there's, like,
a great deal of dependence...
534
00:23:33,698 --> 00:23:35,828
- Mm-hm.
- -That has been fostered...
535
00:23:36,028 --> 00:23:37,998
- Mm-hm.
- And...
536
00:23:38,198 --> 00:23:40,708
in a way, needing to
negate yourself...
537
00:23:40,908 --> 00:23:42,188
- Mm-hm.
- To keep that going...
538
00:23:42,368 --> 00:23:44,168
Mm-hm.
539
00:23:44,368 --> 00:23:46,838
And negate your ability
to stand on your own feet.
540
00:23:47,038 --> 00:23:47,338
Mm-hm.
541
00:23:47,538 --> 00:23:50,178
It's like choosing
between yourself
542
00:23:50,378 --> 00:23:51,178
and then, like...
543
00:23:51,378 --> 00:23:53,748
The love of your father.
544
00:23:53,948 --> 00:23:58,188
I'm just trying
to think about...
545
00:23:58,388 --> 00:24:01,518
things that happened between
the two of you that might be
546
00:24:01,718 --> 00:24:03,358
- related to that.
- Mm-hm.
547
00:24:03,558 --> 00:24:06,698
I mean, one
immediate thought is...
548
00:24:06,898 --> 00:24:10,368
something gets set up
between the two of you,
549
00:24:10,568 --> 00:24:14,778
and then you start feeling like
Christine is doing that to you.
550
00:24:15,278 --> 00:24:18,538
That she's, in a way,
having certain expectations...
551
00:24:18,738 --> 00:24:21,538
- Expectations, yes, yes, yes.
- - Of you that either you
552
00:24:21,738 --> 00:24:23,878
adhere to and then
you're a good girl...
553
00:24:24,078 --> 00:24:25,588
On good graces, yes, exactly.
554
00:24:25,788 --> 00:24:27,878
- Or you're bad.
- - Yeah.
555
00:24:28,078 --> 00:24:28,658
Yeah.
556
00:24:28,858 --> 00:24:32,888
The interesting this is that
you're in a way setting it up so
557
00:24:33,088 --> 00:24:35,428
- that that dynamic gets created.
- Mm-hm.
558
00:24:35,628 --> 00:24:38,388
And I think that's where the
breaking of the agreements...
559
00:24:38,598 --> 00:24:40,558
- Mm-hm.
- Is worth thinking about.
560
00:24:40,758 --> 00:24:42,228
Mm.
561
00:24:42,428 --> 00:24:43,748
That in a way you're provoking...
562
00:24:43,928 --> 00:24:45,068
Mm-hm, mm-hm, mm-hm.
563
00:24:45,268 --> 00:24:47,568
Christine to become that person.
564
00:24:47,768 --> 00:24:48,358
Yeah.
565
00:24:48,558 --> 00:24:52,078
And it's probably especially so
when I'm feeling so triggered in
566
00:24:52,278 --> 00:24:55,078
the dy... like, as
it's, like, falling apart.
567
00:24:55,278 --> 00:24:57,578
As the situation with your dad
is falling apart, yes.
568
00:24:57,778 --> 00:24:58,778
Actively falling apart.
569
00:24:58,948 --> 00:25:02,088
Or... and... or the fact
that he's not there.
570
00:25:02,288 --> 00:25:04,088
- Yeah.
- So then I recreate him.
571
00:25:04,288 --> 00:25:05,088
- Yeah.
- Ah.
572
00:25:05,288 --> 00:25:06,088
- Interesting.
- Yeah.
573
00:25:06,288 --> 00:25:06,798
'Cause you're
comfortable with that.
574
00:25:06,998 --> 00:25:09,104
Yeah, 'cause that feels like
love maybe, I don't know.
575
00:25:09,128 --> 00:25:10,258
- Mm-hm.
- Yeah.
576
00:25:10,458 --> 00:25:11,604
Or at least
that's what you know.
577
00:25:11,628 --> 00:25:13,878
Yeah, as love.
578
00:25:14,888 --> 00:25:17,428
Christine, do you
have any thoughts
579
00:25:17,628 --> 00:25:18,938
on what Nadine is saying?
580
00:25:19,138 --> 00:25:22,268
Um, I... I definitely
empathize with you,
581
00:25:22,468 --> 00:25:24,494
and I don't really feel like
I've been that kind to you
582
00:25:24,518 --> 00:25:25,608
lately.
583
00:25:25,808 --> 00:25:27,528
Sometimes the
narrative in my head is like,
584
00:25:27,638 --> 00:25:29,284
"This person is
heartless and they're, like,
585
00:25:29,308 --> 00:25:30,708
- "out to get me and stuff."
- Yeah.
586
00:25:30,858 --> 00:25:32,488
But you're just...
587
00:25:32,688 --> 00:25:35,698
- A person.
- -Well, yeah.
588
00:25:36,738 --> 00:25:39,288
Um, well...
589
00:25:39,488 --> 00:25:41,118
- we're running out of time.
- - Mm-hm.
590
00:25:41,318 --> 00:25:43,838
I suggest you come back.
591
00:25:44,038 --> 00:25:46,528
Even if we're decoupling?
592
00:25:46,728 --> 00:25:49,468
I... I guess I wanna hear
the decoupling over time,
593
00:25:49,668 --> 00:25:52,658
just to make sure
that's what you're doing.
594
00:25:52,858 --> 00:25:54,468
- Okay.
- - We'll keep talking.
595
00:25:54,668 --> 00:25:57,888
- Okay.
- -
596
00:26:01,808 --> 00:26:03,888
Bye.
597
00:26:05,268 --> 00:26:06,818
- Can I have a hug?
- - Huh?
598
00:26:07,018 --> 00:26:09,818
Can I have a hug?
599
00:26:10,018 --> 00:26:15,028
Sensitive ethereal music.
600
00:26:15,608 --> 00:26:18,658
First, I'm trying to
understand what's happening with
601
00:26:18,858 --> 00:26:21,058
this breakup... sudden
breakup... with this great love.
602
00:26:21,198 --> 00:26:22,498
Yeah.
603
00:26:22,698 --> 00:26:24,674
- Which is interesting.
- It's not a typical couples
604
00:26:24,698 --> 00:26:26,168
- therapy.
- - No, no, no.
605
00:26:26,368 --> 00:26:29,338
How are they thinking about
what tomorrow will bring?
606
00:26:29,538 --> 00:26:30,128
Yeah.
607
00:26:30,328 --> 00:26:33,178
So they're planning
to live together until the
608
00:26:33,378 --> 00:26:34,718
summer.
609
00:26:34,918 --> 00:26:38,058
But the thing is it was suddenly
unraveling in the session that
610
00:26:38,258 --> 00:26:41,018
Nadine is in the middle
of a horrible crisis.
611
00:26:41,218 --> 00:26:42,688
Yeah.
612
00:26:42,888 --> 00:26:45,348
Um, I started to feel,
like, really worried about her.
613
00:26:45,558 --> 00:26:46,858
Yeah.
45739
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