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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:35,025 --> 00:00:39,125 synced by skull 2 00:00:40,625 --> 00:00:45,754 [Peter Ludlow] "We explore, and you call us criminals. 3 00:00:47,866 --> 00:00:51,662 We seek after knowledge, and you call us criminals. 4 00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:56,641 We exist without skin color, without nationality, 5 00:00:56,725 --> 00:00:59,102 without religious bias, 6 00:01:00,645 --> 00:01:02,439 and you call us criminals. 7 00:01:03,482 --> 00:01:06,777 You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, 8 00:01:06,860 --> 00:01:08,403 cheat, and lie to us, 9 00:01:08,487 --> 00:01:10,489 and try to make us believe it's for our own good." 10 00:01:12,699 --> 00:01:14,743 ...My fellow Americans. 11 00:01:14,826 --> 00:01:16,870 "Yet we're the criminals. 12 00:01:19,247 --> 00:01:21,041 Yes, I'm a criminal. 13 00:01:21,416 --> 00:01:23,585 My crime is that of curiosity. 14 00:01:25,170 --> 00:01:27,172 My crime is that of judging people 15 00:01:27,255 --> 00:01:30,342 by what they say and think, not by what they look like. 16 00:01:31,301 --> 00:01:34,012 My crime is that of outsmarting you, 17 00:01:35,013 --> 00:01:37,432 something that you'll never forgive me for. 18 00:01:39,392 --> 00:01:42,020 I'm a hacker, and this is my manifesto. 19 00:01:44,314 --> 00:01:48,443 You may stop this individual, but you can't stop us all." 20 00:01:50,362 --> 00:01:53,990 That is a powerful piece of writing, because 21 00:01:54,825 --> 00:01:57,619 it is so fundamentally revolutionary. 22 00:01:57,702 --> 00:02:00,664 And I really like that part in there where he says, 23 00:02:00,747 --> 00:02:02,749 "My real crime is that of outsmarting you." 24 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:05,127 And that's what they really hate. 25 00:02:05,210 --> 00:02:09,172 I mean, that's why they really hate Aaron Swartz, right? 26 00:02:09,381 --> 00:02:11,216 'Cause he's too fucking smart. 27 00:02:11,299 --> 00:02:14,845 Ed Snowden, another great example, too fucking smart. 28 00:02:15,095 --> 00:02:20,259 [drums beating] 29 00:03:15,657 --> 00:03:18,327 [Peter Ludlow] Information is the new gold. 30 00:03:18,535 --> 00:03:19,995 It's the new oil. 31 00:03:21,580 --> 00:03:22,873 It's like diamonds. 32 00:03:23,957 --> 00:03:25,751 It's worth trillions of dollars, 33 00:03:26,209 --> 00:03:28,211 and if you control that, you control wealth, 34 00:03:28,295 --> 00:03:29,671 you control power. 35 00:03:30,632 --> 00:03:32,885 You don't even have to be an info tech company. 36 00:03:32,968 --> 00:03:35,304 You could be an oil company for example. 37 00:03:36,638 --> 00:03:40,017 You want to control information about climate change 38 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:43,103 and induce the belief in people 39 00:03:43,479 --> 00:03:45,814 that climate change science is a fraud. 40 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,567 Because if you can control that information, 41 00:03:48,650 --> 00:03:50,652 you could save yourselves, you know, 42 00:03:50,736 --> 00:03:53,363 billions and trillions of dollars in regulation. 43 00:03:57,075 --> 00:03:59,077 I'll just say this, we've been here before. 44 00:04:01,271 --> 00:04:04,732 [Tim Wu] Every new media goes through a similar cycle. 45 00:04:05,024 --> 00:04:07,861 Where at the beginning it's decentralized, it's open, 46 00:04:08,027 --> 00:04:09,320 it's very culturally dynamic, 47 00:04:09,404 --> 00:04:11,030 all kinds of things are going on, 48 00:04:11,239 --> 00:04:12,782 a little chaotic, unpredictable. 49 00:04:12,949 --> 00:04:15,994 Invariably, this is true in film, 50 00:04:16,202 --> 00:04:18,246 true of the telephone industry, radio industry, 51 00:04:18,329 --> 00:04:20,665 it begins to consolidate and centralize. 52 00:04:21,583 --> 00:04:22,542 And in some ways that 53 00:04:22,625 --> 00:04:24,460 feels like a very good development at the time, 54 00:04:25,795 --> 00:04:28,548 but then only later do we realize what we've lost. 55 00:04:30,817 --> 00:04:33,194 [Lawrence Lessig] The Internet has the chance to be a platform 56 00:04:34,112 --> 00:04:35,822 that enables an extraordinary amount 57 00:04:35,905 --> 00:04:37,657 of innovation and creativity, 58 00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:42,954 and democratic organization in a way that we've not seen 59 00:04:43,037 --> 00:04:45,248 for more than 100 years. 60 00:04:46,291 --> 00:04:48,459 Increasingly, we want to have our own blog, 61 00:04:48,543 --> 00:04:50,795 we want to tweet about the candidate 62 00:04:50,878 --> 00:04:53,423 and engage in arguments about the positions 63 00:04:53,506 --> 00:04:55,508 and go out and organize our own meet ups 64 00:04:55,591 --> 00:04:57,468 around political action. 65 00:04:57,552 --> 00:05:00,638 And that's because the technology has encouraged us, 66 00:05:00,805 --> 00:05:04,392 once again, to become owners in the political process. 67 00:05:05,935 --> 00:05:09,314 We need to recognize that the freedom here 68 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,483 is embedded in the technology, 69 00:05:12,567 --> 00:05:15,278 and we have to protect the technology 70 00:05:15,361 --> 00:05:17,238 if we wanna be protecting this freedom. 71 00:05:24,996 --> 00:05:26,831 [Tim Wu] It all starts with my mother buying us a computer 72 00:05:26,914 --> 00:05:28,082 when we were, like, nine years old. 73 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:31,210 And we were like, "This thing is cool. 74 00:05:31,294 --> 00:05:33,129 We like it. We can do what we want with it." 75 00:05:33,755 --> 00:05:37,091 We control Lisa by pointing to these images on the screen 76 00:05:37,175 --> 00:05:39,552 with this unique item called a mouse. 77 00:05:40,095 --> 00:05:41,013 [Tim Wu] Fast forward. 78 00:05:41,096 --> 00:05:42,973 I worked in Silicon Valley, first bubble. 79 00:05:43,557 --> 00:05:46,310 And I saw the way things were going, 80 00:05:46,894 --> 00:05:48,854 and it kinda made me nervous. 81 00:05:50,147 --> 00:05:51,940 So I got into it, I wrote a paper. 82 00:05:53,108 --> 00:05:56,361 I don't know, I had no idea what would happen. 83 00:05:56,445 --> 00:05:58,572 I didn't really think it would become a movement 84 00:05:58,781 --> 00:06:01,075 to try to save the... there's sort of been a movement 85 00:06:01,158 --> 00:06:02,451 to sort of try and save the Internet. 86 00:06:02,534 --> 00:06:05,287 I didn't self-consciously think about being part of that. 87 00:06:05,621 --> 00:06:07,623 I just thought something should be done. 88 00:06:08,582 --> 00:06:10,417 Like I said, I spent the last 4 years looking at the history 89 00:06:10,501 --> 00:06:11,794 of the American information industries, 90 00:06:12,169 --> 00:06:14,922 And what you see is a powerful tendency 91 00:06:15,297 --> 00:06:16,840 for information industries 92 00:06:16,924 --> 00:06:18,634 to give birth to powerful monopolies. 93 00:06:19,051 --> 00:06:20,844 And we have to be very careful 94 00:06:20,928 --> 00:06:23,472 to see that Verizon, AT&T, Comcast 95 00:06:23,555 --> 00:06:25,099 don't end up being essentially 96 00:06:25,182 --> 00:06:26,558 the gatekeepers of the Internet. 97 00:06:26,642 --> 00:06:28,185 That's extremely important. 98 00:06:28,352 --> 00:06:30,854 There is a abundant opportunity 99 00:06:30,938 --> 00:06:33,482 when you run a company that control information 100 00:06:33,732 --> 00:06:36,068 to control the minds of people in the nation. 101 00:06:36,568 --> 00:06:40,531 [Tim Wu] I kinda thought the Internet was this incredible experiment 102 00:06:40,614 --> 00:06:43,283 in building a network that anyone could be on. 103 00:06:43,367 --> 00:06:45,661 And it seemed pretty clear to me, even at that point, 104 00:06:45,744 --> 00:06:47,496 first dot-com boom, 105 00:06:47,579 --> 00:06:50,457 that there were a lot of forces that were interested 106 00:06:50,541 --> 00:06:53,168 in reversing the nature of the network, 107 00:06:53,252 --> 00:06:54,962 Kinda turning it upside down, 108 00:06:55,045 --> 00:06:58,340 and making it essentially a commercial project. 109 00:06:58,423 --> 00:07:00,467 Channels of speech being open 110 00:07:00,551 --> 00:07:02,636 and some basic commons for speaking 111 00:07:02,719 --> 00:07:04,221 are essential to democracy, 112 00:07:04,555 --> 00:07:07,015 and when that becomes merely a function of money, 113 00:07:07,808 --> 00:07:09,685 the republic is threatened. 114 00:07:09,810 --> 00:07:12,271 It is the thing that the revolutionaries 115 00:07:12,354 --> 00:07:13,981 realized immediately. 116 00:07:14,064 --> 00:07:15,899 It's one of the reasons they had the revolution 117 00:07:15,983 --> 00:07:18,944 was of the danger of too much influence 118 00:07:19,069 --> 00:07:20,612 on money and politics, 119 00:07:20,696 --> 00:07:22,656 and we still haven't solved the problem. 120 00:07:31,289 --> 00:07:33,666 [Peter Ludlow] I got my start in virtual worlds. 121 00:07:33,833 --> 00:07:36,127 So, I had a virtual newspaper 122 00:07:36,210 --> 00:07:38,671 that covered events inside of the Sims Online, 123 00:07:39,255 --> 00:07:41,215 and some of the stories, like, 124 00:07:41,382 --> 00:07:44,385 just made me really unpopular with the game company. 125 00:07:44,719 --> 00:07:49,015 So, I had, like, one story about these teenage boys 126 00:07:49,140 --> 00:07:52,185 that were role-playing as cyber prostitutes, 127 00:07:52,268 --> 00:07:53,561 and they ran a cyber brothel, 128 00:07:53,644 --> 00:07:56,397 and they were cybering people for game currency, 129 00:07:56,481 --> 00:07:58,608 which they then sold on eBay. 130 00:07:59,317 --> 00:08:00,902 And the day after that story came out, 131 00:08:00,985 --> 00:08:04,197 I got kicked out of... kicked out of the Sims Online. 132 00:08:04,572 --> 00:08:07,492 And then that went viral, of course, 133 00:08:07,575 --> 00:08:08,910 because how could it not? 134 00:08:08,993 --> 00:08:10,745 So then it went from a blog 135 00:08:10,828 --> 00:08:13,748 that was run by academics that study virtual worlds, 136 00:08:13,831 --> 00:08:16,501 to Salon.com, 137 00:08:16,584 --> 00:08:20,213 to "The New York Times" front page, 138 00:08:20,421 --> 00:08:23,049 and then eventually, of course, "The Daily Show." 139 00:08:24,509 --> 00:08:30,140 [piano music playing] 140 00:08:30,523 --> 00:08:32,191 [Lawrence Lessig] My name's Lawrence Lessig, 141 00:08:32,275 --> 00:08:35,320 and I'm a professor of law at Harvard University, 142 00:08:35,528 --> 00:08:38,239 and I direct the Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics 143 00:08:38,323 --> 00:08:39,657 at Harvard University. 144 00:08:39,741 --> 00:08:41,284 The work of the center has been focused 145 00:08:41,367 --> 00:08:43,453 on what we call institutional corruption, 146 00:08:43,536 --> 00:08:46,205 which is--you can think of it as legal corruption 147 00:08:46,289 --> 00:08:47,623 rather than illegal corruption, 148 00:08:47,874 --> 00:08:49,959 so influences that undermine 149 00:08:50,043 --> 00:08:53,087 the effectiveness of an institution. 150 00:08:53,421 --> 00:08:56,132 So, think about the way congress funds its elections. 151 00:08:56,632 --> 00:08:58,509 Private funds fund public elections. 152 00:08:58,593 --> 00:09:00,428 There's nothing illegal about that. 153 00:09:00,511 --> 00:09:02,138 Indeed, it's constitutionally protected, 154 00:09:02,221 --> 00:09:04,098 but it leads most people to believe 155 00:09:04,182 --> 00:09:05,767 money buys results in congress, 156 00:09:05,850 --> 00:09:07,977 and thereby weaken public trust of congress, 157 00:09:08,061 --> 00:09:11,522 and also many people believe it blocks the ability of congress 158 00:09:11,606 --> 00:09:13,691 to address fundamental, important issues 159 00:09:13,775 --> 00:09:15,818 in a way that the people would actually want, 160 00:09:15,902 --> 00:09:19,739 as opposed to a tiny slice of the populace 161 00:09:19,822 --> 00:09:22,450 that directs and controls elections. 162 00:09:24,043 --> 00:09:25,586 [Tim Wu] I think as a nation, 163 00:09:25,670 --> 00:09:28,923 Americans are slightly insensitive to the problem 164 00:09:29,006 --> 00:09:31,258 of the influence of money on speech, 165 00:09:31,467 --> 00:09:35,971 and so I do therefore think it is the job of government, 166 00:09:36,055 --> 00:09:38,724 or of the public, either can be fine 167 00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:41,894 to reserve at least some speech areas 168 00:09:41,977 --> 00:09:44,105 where it's not all about money. 169 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,774 The Internet was invented to be that place, 170 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,318 in some ways it still is, 171 00:09:49,402 --> 00:09:51,237 but the question is whether it can stay that place. 172 00:09:51,862 --> 00:09:55,741 It's critical that the network continue to empower people 173 00:09:55,825 --> 00:09:59,829 to act free of government and corporate control, 174 00:09:59,912 --> 00:10:01,747 to organize for whatever political end 175 00:10:01,831 --> 00:10:03,165 they wanna organize to. 176 00:10:03,249 --> 00:10:05,668 That's the Internet. That's it's architecture. 177 00:10:06,043 --> 00:10:10,214 Its end-to-end, peer-to-peer architecture is that design. 178 00:10:10,297 --> 00:10:13,592 So, the only chance we have in overcoming 179 00:10:13,968 --> 00:10:16,637 what I think of as this core corruption of our government 180 00:10:16,721 --> 00:10:18,848 is through the Internet. It's the only way. 181 00:10:18,931 --> 00:10:22,435 Now, that's not to say that we're likely to win. 182 00:10:22,518 --> 00:10:24,019 You know, I'm not sure what the odds are, 183 00:10:24,103 --> 00:10:26,480 and I'm not confident the odds are good. 184 00:10:26,731 --> 00:10:28,607 But whatever the odds are, 185 00:10:28,691 --> 00:10:34,280 the odds are zero if we lose the basic structure of the net. 186 00:10:34,697 --> 00:10:36,031 So, the Internet is a battleground 187 00:10:36,115 --> 00:10:37,366 in this sense, right? 188 00:10:37,450 --> 00:10:39,452 So, it's not like the Internet's gonna liberate us 189 00:10:39,535 --> 00:10:41,287 or it's not like the Internet's gonna imprison us. 190 00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:42,872 We're fighting over the Internet. 191 00:10:43,581 --> 00:10:46,000 So this is not a time for Republicans and Democrats 192 00:10:46,083 --> 00:10:47,877 to be sniping at each other. 193 00:10:48,043 --> 00:10:50,963 To me, we can all be unified in our politics 194 00:10:51,046 --> 00:10:52,256 in this particular point. 195 00:10:52,339 --> 00:10:55,801 We need to find out what the fuck is going on, 196 00:10:56,051 --> 00:10:58,679 because it's going on sort of behind the curtain. 197 00:10:58,763 --> 00:11:00,765 You gotta pull that curtain aside 198 00:11:00,848 --> 00:11:02,475 and understand what's going on, 199 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,310 'cause we can all agree on this thing. 200 00:11:04,393 --> 00:11:05,811 The game is rigged. 201 00:11:05,895 --> 00:11:07,771 Let's find out exactly how it's rigged 202 00:11:07,855 --> 00:11:09,440 and then get to the bottom of it. 203 00:11:16,097 --> 00:11:21,227 [electronic music playing] 204 00:11:21,377 --> 00:11:22,920 [Peter Ludlow] A hacker, to me, 205 00:11:23,004 --> 00:11:26,090 is somebody that takes traditional technologies 206 00:11:26,173 --> 00:11:29,343 and then mixes them up and gives them a new purpose. 207 00:11:29,719 --> 00:11:30,970 And an activist is, of course, 208 00:11:31,053 --> 00:11:32,346 someone who's like a political activist. 209 00:11:32,430 --> 00:11:34,223 So a hacktivist is someone 210 00:11:34,307 --> 00:11:36,934 who takes technology, re purposes it, 211 00:11:37,018 --> 00:11:40,563 and uses it for some social or political cause. 212 00:11:45,693 --> 00:11:47,486 What we saw in the Arab Spring 213 00:11:47,570 --> 00:11:50,406 were people taking these technologies like Twitter 214 00:11:50,489 --> 00:11:51,782 and using them in ways 215 00:11:51,866 --> 00:11:53,576 that nobody expected them to be used. 216 00:11:53,659 --> 00:11:55,494 I mean, no one thought, "Oh my God, Twitter, 217 00:11:55,578 --> 00:11:57,621 what a great idea for a revolution." 218 00:11:57,955 --> 00:12:00,916 And people just said, "This is a tool I can use," 219 00:12:01,083 --> 00:12:03,627 and so they took it and ran with it. 220 00:12:03,919 --> 00:12:06,630 But you say you can't stop people from using it 221 00:12:06,714 --> 00:12:09,342 for political activism or something. 222 00:12:09,425 --> 00:12:10,843 Oh, yes, you can. 223 00:12:10,968 --> 00:12:14,805 The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act was written in 1985, 224 00:12:14,889 --> 00:12:17,641 shortly after the movie "War Games" came out, right? 225 00:12:17,725 --> 00:12:22,688 People thought, "Wow, someone could start World War III 226 00:12:22,813 --> 00:12:27,485 by dialing in on a 300-baud modem from their Apple II," 227 00:12:27,568 --> 00:12:29,362 or whatever he had. 228 00:12:29,445 --> 00:12:31,906 First of all, let's talk about the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act 229 00:12:31,989 --> 00:12:33,908 and how it easy it is to violate it. 230 00:12:33,991 --> 00:12:35,534 It says you can't use a computer 231 00:12:35,618 --> 00:12:37,703 for purposes that were unintended. 232 00:12:37,787 --> 00:12:39,747 And the Holder Justice Department 233 00:12:39,830 --> 00:12:41,665 has interpreted that to mean 234 00:12:41,749 --> 00:12:43,584 if you violate the terms of service agreement 235 00:12:43,667 --> 00:12:45,628 for a computer program, 236 00:12:45,711 --> 00:12:48,714 you're in violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. 237 00:12:49,006 --> 00:12:50,800 I'm talking about the little thing 238 00:12:50,883 --> 00:12:52,176 where you have to check the box 239 00:12:52,259 --> 00:12:54,053 before you can use the software, right? 240 00:12:54,136 --> 00:12:56,847 It says, "Check this box to say that you agree 241 00:12:56,931 --> 00:13:00,142 to the terms of service," which you never read, none of us do, 242 00:13:00,226 --> 00:13:03,145 but you check the box 'cause you wanna use the software. 243 00:13:03,479 --> 00:13:04,939 Well, in the fine print 244 00:13:05,022 --> 00:13:07,817 are thousands and thousands of things that sort of 245 00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:10,361 could put you in violation of the terms of service. 246 00:13:10,945 --> 00:13:13,739 Example, "Seventeen Magazine." 247 00:13:13,823 --> 00:13:16,242 If you were to use "Seventeen Magazine" 248 00:13:16,325 --> 00:13:18,244 and you agree to the terms of service, 249 00:13:18,327 --> 00:13:22,706 you are agreeing that you are at least 18 years old. 250 00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:25,709 So, if you're 17 years old 251 00:13:25,793 --> 00:13:29,547 and you are reading "Seventeen Magazine" online, 252 00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:30,965 you are a felon. 253 00:13:31,048 --> 00:13:35,094 OkCupid, Match.com, you have to click one of these things 254 00:13:35,177 --> 00:13:36,720 before you use their service. 255 00:13:36,804 --> 00:13:38,597 And on there it says that you agree 256 00:13:38,681 --> 00:13:41,684 that you're not gonna lie about anything you say. 257 00:13:41,767 --> 00:13:44,812 So, if you lie about, like, your size or whatever 258 00:13:44,895 --> 00:13:48,441 on Match.com or OkCupid, you are a felon. 259 00:13:49,150 --> 00:13:53,237 So, the question is... if everyone's a felon, 260 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,156 then who do we prosecute? 261 00:13:55,239 --> 00:13:57,867 And that's why this is dangerous 262 00:13:57,950 --> 00:14:01,912 because it means a prosecutor can pick and choose. 263 00:14:01,996 --> 00:14:04,039 So, they know they can get you. 264 00:14:04,123 --> 00:14:07,501 They know you're in violation of the CFAA, right? 265 00:14:07,751 --> 00:14:09,378 So all they have to do is decide 266 00:14:09,462 --> 00:14:10,796 who's a threat to the system, 267 00:14:11,297 --> 00:14:13,382 and that's the person they go after. 268 00:14:13,391 --> 00:14:17,821 [audience applauding] 269 00:14:19,029 --> 00:14:20,364 Thanks. 270 00:14:21,699 --> 00:14:23,826 Now that you've seen the theory behind Creative Commons, 271 00:14:23,909 --> 00:14:25,703 it's time to show you some of the practice. 272 00:14:25,953 --> 00:14:28,664 So, when you come to your-- come to our website, here. 273 00:14:29,832 --> 00:14:33,586 [male newscaster] At age 14, he was blowing people away in Silicon Valley 274 00:14:33,669 --> 00:14:34,962 with what he could do. 275 00:14:35,045 --> 00:14:36,672 Books are such important artifacts. 276 00:14:36,755 --> 00:14:39,091 They're the kind of repositories of knowledge in our culture. 277 00:14:39,174 --> 00:14:40,759 Because for everything, 278 00:14:40,843 --> 00:14:43,053 there's someone who cares a great deal about it, 279 00:14:43,304 --> 00:14:45,014 and that's what television, that's what radio 280 00:14:45,097 --> 00:14:46,807 doesn't provide, but the Internet does. 281 00:14:48,309 --> 00:14:49,852 [Lawrence Lessig] I first met him at conferences. 282 00:14:49,935 --> 00:14:53,981 His parents would chaperone him as a 12- or 13-year-old 283 00:14:54,064 --> 00:14:56,150 to attend these computer conferences. 284 00:14:56,775 --> 00:15:01,113 I invited him to be the core architect of Creative Commons. 285 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:02,823 I got to watch him grow up. 286 00:15:03,782 --> 00:15:07,336 [piano music playing] 287 00:15:07,503 --> 00:15:11,132 It was the first experience of being a father. 288 00:15:11,882 --> 00:15:17,430 At the age of 14, he helped co-design the RSS protocol. 289 00:15:17,513 --> 00:15:19,598 Fifteen, he was the core architect 290 00:15:19,682 --> 00:15:22,768 for the technical infrastructure for Creative Commons. 291 00:15:22,852 --> 00:15:25,187 Nineteen, he began Infogami 292 00:15:25,271 --> 00:15:27,732 which eventually merged with Reddit. 293 00:15:27,815 --> 00:15:29,275 And from the age of 20, 294 00:15:29,358 --> 00:15:32,361 he worked in a series of incredible projects. 295 00:15:36,015 --> 00:15:38,351 [Aaron Swartz] What we try and do is we try and organize people 296 00:15:38,434 --> 00:15:40,728 because the Internet really provides this chance 297 00:15:40,811 --> 00:15:43,230 to realize that you can accomplish something. 298 00:15:44,690 --> 00:15:46,275 [Lawrence Lessig] So Aaron was a hacker. 299 00:15:46,651 --> 00:15:50,780 What this hacking is, is the use of technical knowledge 300 00:15:51,322 --> 00:15:52,865 to advance a public good. 301 00:15:52,948 --> 00:15:56,452 We need to celebrate the activity of hacking. 302 00:15:57,161 --> 00:16:03,459 [gripping instrumental music playing] 303 00:16:45,459 --> 00:16:47,169 [Aaron Swartz] Whether you're going after the government, 304 00:16:47,253 --> 00:16:48,796 whether you're releasing documents 305 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:50,923 that they have tried to keep secret, 306 00:16:51,006 --> 00:16:52,883 whether you're telling a reporter about, you know, 307 00:16:52,967 --> 00:16:54,677 malfeasance that's gone on. 308 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,887 The government can't stop any of that. 309 00:16:57,054 --> 00:17:00,516 [Cory Doctorow] In 2008, he helped liberate a database called PACER, 310 00:17:00,599 --> 00:17:02,685 which is where all the U.S. Court filings are. 311 00:17:02,768 --> 00:17:05,604 Aaron arranged to put $1.5 million worth 312 00:17:05,688 --> 00:17:08,566 of American court filings into recap, 313 00:17:08,649 --> 00:17:11,110 which everybody thought was awesome except for the FBI, 314 00:17:11,193 --> 00:17:13,612 who opened a file on him, they staked him out, 315 00:17:13,696 --> 00:17:15,406 they brought him in for questioning without his lawyer. 316 00:17:15,489 --> 00:17:17,908 The next thing he did that made headlines 317 00:17:17,992 --> 00:17:20,327 was getting involved with a thing called JSTOR. 318 00:17:21,162 --> 00:17:23,831 [Aaron Swartz] Every time someone has written down a scientific paper, 319 00:17:23,914 --> 00:17:25,458 it's been scanned, and digitized, 320 00:17:25,541 --> 00:17:26,959 and put in these collections. 321 00:17:27,168 --> 00:17:29,754 That is a legacy that has been brought to us 322 00:17:29,837 --> 00:17:32,590 by the history of people doing interesting work, 323 00:17:32,673 --> 00:17:34,008 the history of scientists. 324 00:17:34,133 --> 00:17:35,426 It's a legacy that should belong 325 00:17:35,509 --> 00:17:37,511 to us as a commons, as a people. 326 00:17:38,471 --> 00:17:41,474 Once I realized that there were real, serious problems, 327 00:17:41,557 --> 00:17:43,893 fundamental problems, that I could do something to address, 328 00:17:44,018 --> 00:17:45,811 there was really no going back. 329 00:17:46,187 --> 00:17:48,773 By virtue of being students at a major U.S. university, 330 00:17:48,856 --> 00:17:52,193 you have access to a wide variety of scholarly journals. 331 00:17:52,651 --> 00:17:55,696 Pretty much every major university in the United States 332 00:17:55,780 --> 00:17:57,865 pays these sort of licensing fees to organizations 333 00:17:57,948 --> 00:18:00,284 like JSTOR and Thomson ISI 334 00:18:00,367 --> 00:18:02,828 to get access to scholarly journals. 335 00:18:02,912 --> 00:18:04,997 And these licensing fees are substantial, 336 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:06,624 and they're so substantial that 337 00:18:06,707 --> 00:18:08,793 people who are studying in India, 338 00:18:08,876 --> 00:18:12,254 they're locked out from our entire scientific legacy. 339 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,842 But you have a key to those gates, 340 00:18:16,967 --> 00:18:20,137 and with a little bit of shell script magic, 341 00:18:20,221 --> 00:18:22,473 you can get those journal articles. 342 00:18:22,556 --> 00:18:24,266 Once you have a copy, theoretically, 343 00:18:24,350 --> 00:18:26,101 you could make it available to everyone. 344 00:18:26,936 --> 00:18:29,563 In the same way that people did civil disobedience, 345 00:18:29,647 --> 00:18:31,482 broke the rules for the civil rights movement, 346 00:18:31,565 --> 00:18:33,025 it's actually a serious problem 347 00:18:33,108 --> 00:18:35,236 that the vast majority of the planet doesn't have access 348 00:18:35,319 --> 00:18:37,404 to our accumulated scientific knowledge, 349 00:18:37,488 --> 00:18:39,657 and I think it might be worth breaking a couple rules 350 00:18:39,740 --> 00:18:41,242 to solve that problem. 351 00:19:01,387 --> 00:19:03,180 The Federal Communications Commission 352 00:19:03,264 --> 00:19:06,267 has adopted new rules on network neutrality. 353 00:19:06,350 --> 00:19:08,060 The new guidelines are designed 354 00:19:08,143 --> 00:19:09,812 to limit the control that corporations 355 00:19:09,895 --> 00:19:12,982 such as Google and Verizon wield over the content 356 00:19:13,065 --> 00:19:14,608 that consumers see on the web. 357 00:19:14,692 --> 00:19:17,903 Joining me now is the inventor of the term"net neutrality," Tim Wu. 358 00:19:17,987 --> 00:19:20,030 He is a professor at Columbia University. 359 00:19:20,114 --> 00:19:22,199 Pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. 360 00:19:22,283 --> 00:19:23,409 Welcome. 361 00:19:23,492 --> 00:19:24,952 Pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. 362 00:19:25,035 --> 00:19:26,579 The net neutrality vote means what? 363 00:19:26,662 --> 00:19:29,331 What that means is it's illegal for a carrier company, 364 00:19:29,415 --> 00:19:33,919 let's say Verizon, to block, let's say, Hulu, or Bing, 365 00:19:34,003 --> 00:19:35,796 a site it doesn't like. 366 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,756 The carriers have to carry all the websites. 367 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,884 That's the basic idea of net neutrality. 368 00:19:39,967 --> 00:19:43,137 [Charlie Rose] And was there a real threat that they would do that? 369 00:19:43,220 --> 00:19:45,389 [Tim Wu] What history shows is, over time, 370 00:19:45,472 --> 00:19:48,392 eventually what was once the young, exciting new media 371 00:19:48,475 --> 00:19:50,686 becomes increasingly consolidated, 372 00:19:50,769 --> 00:19:52,563 increasingly closed, 373 00:19:52,646 --> 00:19:55,399 dominated by a monopolist or an oligopoly. 374 00:19:55,566 --> 00:20:00,654 There's an important lesson in the history of communications, 375 00:20:00,738 --> 00:20:06,702 which is that, in fact, government likes monopolies 376 00:20:06,785 --> 00:20:09,788 because they can be used to serve political ends. 377 00:20:11,916 --> 00:20:14,668 Now, Western Union became perilously close to that example. 378 00:20:14,752 --> 00:20:18,881 You had a monopolist over the instant moving of information. 379 00:20:18,964 --> 00:20:20,716 That is the only way to get information 380 00:20:21,467 --> 00:20:24,637 from A to B instantly, is one company, 381 00:20:25,137 --> 00:20:27,723 and that one company happens to think the Republican party 382 00:20:27,806 --> 00:20:29,058 should be in government forever. 383 00:20:29,767 --> 00:20:31,393 So, it gives an enormous advantage 384 00:20:31,477 --> 00:20:33,395 to all the Republican candidates. 385 00:20:33,479 --> 00:20:35,773 Those situations are some of the most dangerous 386 00:20:35,856 --> 00:20:37,691 to the democratic system. 387 00:20:38,192 --> 00:20:39,985 And it's no coincidence... there's other reasons too, 388 00:20:40,069 --> 00:20:45,407 but the fact is you had Republican administrations 389 00:20:45,532 --> 00:20:48,243 from Lincoln onwards, all the way to Woodrow Wilson, 390 00:20:49,078 --> 00:20:51,330 in part on the back of the telegraph system. 391 00:20:53,582 --> 00:20:55,334 That may seem like a 19th-century problem. 392 00:20:55,417 --> 00:20:58,253 I think you see some of the same problems today. 393 00:20:58,837 --> 00:21:01,048 It was clear that the Bush Administration 394 00:21:01,465 --> 00:21:05,260 liked the increasing concentration of AT&T 395 00:21:05,344 --> 00:21:07,137 for national security reasons. 396 00:21:10,224 --> 00:21:12,643 [George Bush] It is in our national interest, and it's legal. 397 00:21:12,726 --> 00:21:14,770 It's in our national interest 'cause we wanna know 398 00:21:14,853 --> 00:21:17,690 who's calling who, from overseas into America. 399 00:21:17,773 --> 00:21:20,818 We need to know, in order to protect the people. 400 00:21:20,901 --> 00:21:22,903 [Tim Wu] In fact, it's often been the case 401 00:21:22,987 --> 00:21:26,156 that the national security parts of the government 402 00:21:26,281 --> 00:21:28,283 want there to be a single company 403 00:21:28,367 --> 00:21:30,285 in charge of information, 404 00:21:30,452 --> 00:21:33,038 either so they can defend against a threat 405 00:21:33,122 --> 00:21:36,834 or, more dangerously, so they can spy on citizens. 406 00:21:39,086 --> 00:21:40,045 So, I'll say that again. 407 00:21:40,129 --> 00:21:42,965 The governments tend to like information monopolies 408 00:21:43,507 --> 00:21:47,011 because if they can have some control or influence 409 00:21:47,136 --> 00:21:50,222 over that information monopoly, it increases their power. 410 00:21:50,305 --> 00:21:51,724 That is the danger. 411 00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:54,143 It's not simply a danger 412 00:21:54,226 --> 00:21:56,186 of higher prices or bad service. 413 00:21:56,437 --> 00:21:59,064 It is a much more fundamental danger 414 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,942 to the nature of republican government itself, 415 00:22:02,192 --> 00:22:04,987 because if you have an information monopolist 416 00:22:05,070 --> 00:22:07,406 who's essentially complicit with government, 417 00:22:07,823 --> 00:22:09,158 acting hand in hand, 418 00:22:10,576 --> 00:22:13,162 it comes very close to a Fascist system of government. 419 00:22:18,208 --> 00:22:20,043 You once claimed that you have an ability 420 00:22:20,127 --> 00:22:22,045 to face unpleasant facts. 421 00:22:22,129 --> 00:22:25,007 Is that what you've demonstrated in "1984," 422 00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:27,634 by drawing an accurate portrait of the future? 423 00:22:28,635 --> 00:22:30,304 This is the direction the world 424 00:22:30,387 --> 00:22:32,097 is going in at the present time. 425 00:22:32,806 --> 00:22:37,686 The moral to be drawn from this dangerous nightmare situation 426 00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:39,396 is a simple one... 427 00:22:41,356 --> 00:22:42,524 don't let it happen. 428 00:22:42,608 --> 00:22:47,654 [funky music playing] 429 00:22:47,738 --> 00:22:49,323 [Edward Snowden] I grew up with the understanding 430 00:22:49,406 --> 00:22:50,532 that the world I lived in 431 00:22:50,616 --> 00:22:54,119 was one where people enjoyed a sort of freedom 432 00:22:54,203 --> 00:22:57,080 to communicate with each other in privacy, 433 00:22:57,164 --> 00:22:59,249 without it being monitored, without it being measured 434 00:22:59,333 --> 00:23:02,127 or analyzed or sort of judged 435 00:23:02,336 --> 00:23:05,088 by these shadowy figures or systems. 436 00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:10,803 d When the powers of dictators shall be taken all away 437 00:23:11,595 --> 00:23:14,014 d There'll be smoke on the water d 438 00:23:14,515 --> 00:23:17,100 [Edward Snowden] I joined the intelligence community when I was very young, 439 00:23:17,184 --> 00:23:20,646 sort of the government as a whole. 440 00:23:20,729 --> 00:23:25,108 I enlisted in the army shortly after the invasion of Iraq, 441 00:23:25,192 --> 00:23:28,570 and I believed in the goodness of what we were doing. 442 00:23:28,654 --> 00:23:31,156 I believed in the nobility of our intentions 443 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,284 to free oppressed people overseas. 444 00:23:36,161 --> 00:23:38,121 d There'll be smoke on the water 445 00:23:38,205 --> 00:23:40,457 d On the land, and the sea 446 00:23:40,541 --> 00:23:45,128 d When our army and navy overtakes the enemy 447 00:23:45,212 --> 00:23:47,339 d There'll be smoke on the mountains 448 00:23:47,422 --> 00:23:49,800 d Where the heathen gods stay 449 00:23:49,883 --> 00:23:54,346 d And the sun that is rising will go down on that day d 450 00:23:58,684 --> 00:24:00,811 [explosion] 451 00:24:00,894 --> 00:24:04,857 But over time, I increasingly was exposed to true information 452 00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:08,318 that had not been propagandized in the media. 453 00:24:09,570 --> 00:24:14,449 [radio chatter] 454 00:24:15,534 --> 00:24:18,328 We were actually involved in misleading the public. 455 00:24:25,168 --> 00:24:29,006 The NSA specifically targets the communications of everyone. 456 00:24:29,089 --> 00:24:31,216 It ingests them by default. 457 00:24:31,383 --> 00:24:35,012 Companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, 458 00:24:35,095 --> 00:24:37,389 they all provide the NSA direct access 459 00:24:37,472 --> 00:24:41,059 to all of the systems you use to communicate, to store data, 460 00:24:41,226 --> 00:24:42,561 to put things in the cloud. 461 00:24:42,644 --> 00:24:46,440 I think that's a dangerous capability for anybody to have. 462 00:24:49,401 --> 00:24:51,528 [Peter Ludlow] People say, "If I have nothing to hide, 463 00:24:51,612 --> 00:24:53,488 "what's the worry? I'd rather have security, 464 00:24:53,572 --> 00:24:56,074 so I'd rather have the NSA spying on everyone." 465 00:24:56,283 --> 00:24:58,952 First of all, it's clear that the NSA, 466 00:24:59,036 --> 00:25:00,370 by doing the spying program, 467 00:25:00,454 --> 00:25:03,790 is not providing any extra security. 468 00:25:04,082 --> 00:25:06,501 In fact, it might be undermining security 469 00:25:06,585 --> 00:25:09,004 because if you gather too much information, 470 00:25:09,129 --> 00:25:12,049 you don't know what information is valuable and what isn't. 471 00:25:12,257 --> 00:25:16,595 So, I would rather have the NSA out there spying on terrorists 472 00:25:16,678 --> 00:25:18,597 instead of you and me, 473 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,807 because if our information is there, 474 00:25:20,891 --> 00:25:23,936 it's just cluttering up their desk and prohibiting them 475 00:25:24,019 --> 00:25:26,438 from getting the information that they need. 476 00:25:27,356 --> 00:25:29,358 Now you might say, "Oh, well, big data, 477 00:25:29,441 --> 00:25:31,568 their computer programs solve all that." 478 00:25:31,652 --> 00:25:33,737 That's bullshit, and I'm in a position to know. 479 00:25:33,820 --> 00:25:35,906 Unless you prepare your data correctly, 480 00:25:35,989 --> 00:25:38,408 which is a very meticulous process, 481 00:25:39,034 --> 00:25:41,578 data mining is not effective. 482 00:25:42,371 --> 00:25:45,207 So, the NSA can talk about making us safe, 483 00:25:45,290 --> 00:25:47,084 but it's not doing that, 484 00:25:47,167 --> 00:25:48,919 and we need to sit and think about 485 00:25:49,002 --> 00:25:52,089 the very real possibility that it's making us less safe. 486 00:25:52,798 --> 00:25:57,302 Control that gets erected for one reason, 487 00:25:57,386 --> 00:25:59,012 and maybe a good reason, 488 00:25:59,096 --> 00:26:03,058 gets deployed and exercised for a different reason, 489 00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:05,644 and not necessarily a good reason. 490 00:26:05,852 --> 00:26:08,438 So, you know, you build the machine 491 00:26:08,522 --> 00:26:10,148 to deal with the terrorists. 492 00:26:10,399 --> 00:26:12,401 You then have a machine in place 493 00:26:12,526 --> 00:26:14,486 to deal with the copyright infringers, 494 00:26:14,611 --> 00:26:16,655 and not just the, quote, "pirates," 495 00:26:16,738 --> 00:26:19,616 but now the people who remix without permission. 496 00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:22,744 And so you begin to build the infrastructure of control 497 00:26:22,911 --> 00:26:24,454 into the core of the Internet, 498 00:26:24,538 --> 00:26:26,415 and it begins to be dialed 499 00:26:26,498 --> 00:26:29,001 towards every new problem that you describe. 500 00:26:29,084 --> 00:26:30,669 Now again, I'm not an anarchist. 501 00:26:30,752 --> 00:26:32,629 I think the law needs to regulate 502 00:26:32,713 --> 00:26:34,297 certain kinds of behavior, 503 00:26:34,381 --> 00:26:35,882 but we need to be sensitive 504 00:26:35,966 --> 00:26:38,969 to the way in which we build an infrastructure for control 505 00:26:39,052 --> 00:26:40,846 that gives the government wildly too much power 506 00:26:40,929 --> 00:26:42,472 to regulate in a context 507 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:47,144 where liberty or innovation is threatened. 508 00:26:56,361 --> 00:26:58,363 [female newscaster] We begin tonight with new developments 509 00:26:58,447 --> 00:27:00,115 in the case of Aaron Swartz. 510 00:27:00,198 --> 00:27:01,533 In a recent and closed door hearing 511 00:27:01,616 --> 00:27:03,493 regarding the computer fraud prosecution 512 00:27:03,577 --> 00:27:05,579 of the Internet activist, it was revealed 513 00:27:05,662 --> 00:27:07,622 by a Justice Department representative 514 00:27:08,081 --> 00:27:11,710 that Swartz was indeed targeted because of his politics. 515 00:27:13,170 --> 00:27:15,714 Back in 2008, Swartz and others laid out their views 516 00:27:15,797 --> 00:27:19,301 in a piece called the "Guerilla Open Access Manifesto." 517 00:27:19,593 --> 00:27:21,428 The manifesto, according to the Justice Department, 518 00:27:21,511 --> 00:27:23,388 demonstrated his intent 519 00:27:23,472 --> 00:27:26,391 in downloading content on a large scale. 520 00:27:26,516 --> 00:27:31,563 He became a target, a political target, okay, 521 00:27:31,646 --> 00:27:33,774 and that's why all these things happened to him. 522 00:27:33,857 --> 00:27:38,320 There is no reasonable cause 523 00:27:38,403 --> 00:27:41,573 behind going after a young genius like that 524 00:27:41,656 --> 00:27:42,866 in the fashion they did. 525 00:27:42,949 --> 00:27:44,242 It's political. 526 00:27:49,289 --> 00:27:54,169 [dainty instrumental music playing] 527 00:28:04,888 --> 00:28:07,349 [Aaron Swartz] I was at an event, and I was talking, 528 00:28:07,432 --> 00:28:09,267 and I got introduced to a U.S. Senator. 529 00:28:09,351 --> 00:28:12,479 And I asked him why, despite being such a progressive, 530 00:28:12,687 --> 00:28:15,440 despite giving a speech in favor of civil liberties, 531 00:28:15,524 --> 00:28:18,568 why he was supporting a bill that would censor the Internet. 532 00:28:19,486 --> 00:28:21,780 And you know, that typical politician smile he had 533 00:28:21,863 --> 00:28:23,740 suddenly faded from his face, 534 00:28:23,824 --> 00:28:27,119 and his eyes started burning this fiery red. 535 00:28:27,202 --> 00:28:28,537 And he started shouting at me. 536 00:28:28,620 --> 00:28:30,413 He said, "Those people on the Internet, 537 00:28:30,497 --> 00:28:32,082 they think they can get away with anything. 538 00:28:32,165 --> 00:28:34,126 They think they can just put anything up there 539 00:28:34,209 --> 00:28:35,502 and there's nothing we can do to stop them. 540 00:28:35,585 --> 00:28:36,878 They put up everything. 541 00:28:36,962 --> 00:28:38,880 Well, we're gonna show them. 542 00:28:38,964 --> 00:28:40,424 There's gotta be laws on the Internet. 543 00:28:40,507 --> 00:28:42,509 It's gotta be under control. 544 00:28:43,552 --> 00:28:45,720 [Christopher Dodd] Everyone says they wanna shut down 545 00:28:45,804 --> 00:28:48,557 these foreign criminals who are stealing American jobs. 546 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,392 These two bills are designed to do that. 547 00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:52,310 They've been worked out for months. 548 00:28:52,394 --> 00:28:56,148 [Lawrence Lessig] It was Chris Dodd's first chance 549 00:28:56,523 --> 00:28:59,985 to demonstrate how powerful a lobbyist he was gonna be. 550 00:29:00,068 --> 00:29:03,447 Chris Dodd, Democratic Senator from Connecticut, 551 00:29:03,530 --> 00:29:07,826 when he retired, promised his citizens from Connecticut 552 00:29:07,909 --> 00:29:09,536 he would not become a lobbyist, 553 00:29:09,619 --> 00:29:11,663 and then turned around and became the head 554 00:29:11,746 --> 00:29:13,373 of the Motion Picture Association of America, 555 00:29:13,457 --> 00:29:15,333 the most powerful lobbying arm 556 00:29:15,417 --> 00:29:17,627 for the content industry in Washington. 557 00:29:17,961 --> 00:29:20,922 And he could command a very high price 558 00:29:21,006 --> 00:29:23,133 as the chief of the MPAA 559 00:29:23,216 --> 00:29:25,594 because people believed he had the ability 560 00:29:25,677 --> 00:29:27,095 to deliver on the goods, 561 00:29:27,179 --> 00:29:28,930 and the goods here meant 562 00:29:29,014 --> 00:29:31,766 being able to get laws passed through Congress. 563 00:29:31,850 --> 00:29:34,019 So, he succeeded before 564 00:29:34,102 --> 00:29:36,480 the fight blew up on the Internet. 565 00:29:36,563 --> 00:29:39,733 In getting the commitment of all the key senators 566 00:29:39,816 --> 00:29:41,485 to get this through the Senate 567 00:29:41,568 --> 00:29:43,320 and the same kind of support in the House, 568 00:29:43,653 --> 00:29:45,739 and it was gonna be his victory lap. 569 00:29:45,822 --> 00:29:49,409 What content owners wanted was a simple, efficient way 570 00:29:50,118 --> 00:29:51,870 for them to get sites taken down. 571 00:29:52,496 --> 00:29:55,165 Now look, there are plenty of pirate sites out there, 572 00:29:55,248 --> 00:29:56,583 and I don't support piracy. 573 00:29:56,875 --> 00:29:59,336 I'm not in favor of people taking other people's content 574 00:29:59,419 --> 00:30:00,712 and sharing it illegally. 575 00:30:00,795 --> 00:30:03,673 But you know, you can agree with the objective 576 00:30:03,757 --> 00:30:06,843 to deal with, quote, "piracy," and still not agree 577 00:30:06,927 --> 00:30:09,471 that we ought to give to the content owners 578 00:30:09,846 --> 00:30:13,558 basically an automatic right to go to a court 579 00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:17,729 and get the government to order a website off of the Internet, 580 00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:19,814 which is basically what this was. 581 00:30:19,898 --> 00:30:22,067 It was the ability to get some domain name 582 00:30:22,150 --> 00:30:25,237 removed from the DNS, or an IP address blocked, 583 00:30:25,779 --> 00:30:28,490 and forcing people to comply with these blocking orders 584 00:30:28,615 --> 00:30:31,826 in a procedure that didn't give any basic due process 585 00:30:31,910 --> 00:30:33,578 to the people who were being challenged. 586 00:30:33,995 --> 00:30:36,122 I think SOPA is the best evidence 587 00:30:36,206 --> 00:30:38,333 that they just have not learned yet, 588 00:30:38,750 --> 00:30:42,087 and they're still waging this evermore vicious war 589 00:30:42,170 --> 00:30:43,755 on the idea that somehow 590 00:30:43,838 --> 00:30:46,591 they're gonna bomb our kids into compliance. 591 00:30:46,675 --> 00:30:49,594 All they're gonna do, like every war of prohibition, 592 00:30:49,678 --> 00:30:51,763 is to bomb our kids into radicalism, 593 00:30:51,846 --> 00:30:53,598 and they can't afford the radicalism 594 00:30:53,682 --> 00:30:55,267 of the next generation. 595 00:30:56,810 --> 00:31:00,939 [ominous music playing] 596 00:31:05,902 --> 00:31:07,904 [Lawrence Lessig] When you sit down, and you take somebody's music, 597 00:31:07,988 --> 00:31:09,114 and you mix it with your video, 598 00:31:09,197 --> 00:31:10,615 and you share it with your friends, 599 00:31:10,699 --> 00:31:12,826 that's the sort of activity we should be celebrating, 600 00:31:12,909 --> 00:31:14,327 not regulating. 601 00:31:14,786 --> 00:31:17,247 [Aaron Swartz] Everything has this process of pulling things together 602 00:31:17,330 --> 00:31:18,665 and recombining them. 603 00:31:18,915 --> 00:31:21,585 What's worrying about these sort of copyright police 604 00:31:21,668 --> 00:31:23,670 is that they wanna prevent recombination. 605 00:31:23,753 --> 00:31:25,297 They wanna have the law come in 606 00:31:25,380 --> 00:31:27,424 and say recombination isn't legal. 607 00:31:27,507 --> 00:31:29,676 Congress was going to break the Internet, 608 00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:31,469 and it just didn't care. 609 00:31:31,803 --> 00:31:37,267 [John Conyers Jr.] And to those who say that a bill to stop online theft 610 00:31:37,434 --> 00:31:39,060 will break the Internet, 611 00:31:39,561 --> 00:31:41,479 I'd like to point out 612 00:31:43,356 --> 00:31:47,944 that it's not likely to happen. 613 00:31:48,028 --> 00:31:49,613 [Jon Stewart] Hey, does anyone on these committees 614 00:31:49,696 --> 00:31:51,031 charged with regulating the Internet 615 00:31:51,114 --> 00:31:53,617 understand how any of this Internet stuff works? 616 00:31:53,950 --> 00:31:55,118 I'm not a nerd. 617 00:31:55,201 --> 00:31:56,369 I am not a nerd. 618 00:31:56,453 --> 00:31:57,829 I'm just not enough of a nerd. 619 00:31:57,912 --> 00:32:00,832 Maybe we oughta ask some nerds what this thing really does. 620 00:32:01,124 --> 00:32:03,293 Let's have a hearing, bring in the nerds. 621 00:32:04,461 --> 00:32:05,545 Really? 622 00:32:08,548 --> 00:32:09,716 Nerds? 623 00:32:10,842 --> 00:32:12,761 You know, I think actually the word you're looking for 624 00:32:12,844 --> 00:32:14,262 is experts. 625 00:32:14,346 --> 00:32:16,765 There was just something about watching 626 00:32:16,848 --> 00:32:19,768 those clueless members of Congress debate the bill, 627 00:32:19,893 --> 00:32:22,062 watching them insist they could regulate the Internet 628 00:32:22,145 --> 00:32:24,314 and a bunch of nerds couldn't possibly stop them. 629 00:32:24,439 --> 00:32:27,400 The Pirate Bay is a notorious pirate site. 630 00:32:27,484 --> 00:32:30,862 Why don't you refuse to de-index this site 631 00:32:30,945 --> 00:32:32,656 in your search results? 632 00:32:32,864 --> 00:32:35,533 [Aaron Swartz] Those hearings scared a lot of people. 633 00:32:35,617 --> 00:32:36,951 They saw this wasn't the attitude 634 00:32:37,035 --> 00:32:39,037 of a thoughtful government trying to resolve trade-offs 635 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,373 in order to best represent its citizens. 636 00:32:41,456 --> 00:32:43,333 This was more like the attitude of a tyrant, 637 00:32:43,416 --> 00:32:44,751 and so the citizens fought back. 638 00:32:44,834 --> 00:32:46,711 [protester] This is what democracy looks like! 639 00:32:46,836 --> 00:32:49,547 This is what hypocrisy looks like! 640 00:32:49,631 --> 00:32:53,426 [Alexis Ohanian] This is a movement that started organically, on the Internet, 641 00:32:53,510 --> 00:32:55,470 by American citizens. 642 00:32:55,553 --> 00:32:57,722 [Tim Wu] The main thing I think is interesting about SOPA 643 00:32:57,806 --> 00:32:59,057 was the strength of the reaction, 644 00:32:59,140 --> 00:33:01,476 and it wasn't simply the people in D.C. 645 00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:02,894 who care about these issues, 646 00:33:02,977 --> 00:33:05,855 but it was tech people, engineer people, young people. 647 00:33:05,939 --> 00:33:07,107 All kinds of people said, 648 00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:09,234 "You know, I kinda like the Internet the way it is, 649 00:33:09,943 --> 00:33:13,822 "And I just don't think Hollywood's plan 650 00:33:13,905 --> 00:33:15,240 is gonna make things better." 651 00:33:15,323 --> 00:33:16,658 [electronic music playing] 652 00:33:16,741 --> 00:33:19,452 The war for the Internet has begun. 653 00:33:20,203 --> 00:33:23,665 Hollywood is in control of politics. 654 00:33:23,748 --> 00:33:26,793 The government is killing innovation. 655 00:33:27,419 --> 00:33:30,380 Don't let them get away with that. 656 00:33:30,672 --> 00:33:32,590 Everyone was thinking of ways they could help. 657 00:33:32,674 --> 00:33:35,009 Often, really clever, ingenious ways. 658 00:33:35,301 --> 00:33:39,013 (Jack Black) Then these pirates come, and they steal all our Internets. 659 00:33:41,641 --> 00:33:44,018 [Aaron Swartz] They made infographics, they started PACs, 660 00:33:44,102 --> 00:33:46,020 they designed ads, they bought billboards, 661 00:33:46,104 --> 00:33:48,356 they wrote news stories, they held meetings. 662 00:33:49,023 --> 00:33:51,735 Everybody saw it as their responsibility to help. 663 00:33:51,818 --> 00:33:53,361 They threw themselves into it. 664 00:33:53,445 --> 00:33:54,946 They didn't stop to ask anyone for permission. 665 00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:56,656 d Let's get together 666 00:33:56,740 --> 00:33:58,700 d Let's all unite 667 00:33:58,783 --> 00:34:01,703 d Or they will do whatever they like d 668 00:34:01,911 --> 00:34:04,956 [female newscaster] At least 7,000 websites are going dark tonight at midnight, 669 00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:06,833 including one of the most 670 00:34:06,916 --> 00:34:08,918 heavily trafficked sites on earth, Wikipedia, 671 00:34:09,002 --> 00:34:12,213 in what looks to be the biggest online protest ever conducted. 672 00:34:12,297 --> 00:34:15,091 [Lawrence Lessig] And of course, when the fight on the Internet exploded 673 00:34:15,175 --> 00:34:16,760 and people started being outraged 674 00:34:16,843 --> 00:34:19,220 and started organizing so effectively 675 00:34:19,304 --> 00:34:21,890 across businesses and non-commercial sector. 676 00:34:21,973 --> 00:34:25,518 And I think here, Wikipedia was the most important contributor, 677 00:34:25,602 --> 00:34:27,562 because their motives could not be questioned. 678 00:34:27,687 --> 00:34:29,898 They're not playing a game to get bigger profits. 679 00:34:30,023 --> 00:34:32,192 They're just protecting their opportunity 680 00:34:32,275 --> 00:34:35,111 to provide important free information on the Internet. 681 00:34:35,195 --> 00:34:37,739 And when push came to shove, you know, 682 00:34:37,822 --> 00:34:40,116 millions of people summoned by Wikipedia 683 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,951 turned out to be more powerful than Chris Dodd, 684 00:34:42,035 --> 00:34:43,828 and he was furious. 685 00:34:43,912 --> 00:34:47,248 [male newscaster] Top lobbyist for Hollywood exclusively told Fox 686 00:34:47,332 --> 00:34:48,917 his industry is threatening 687 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,668 to cut off money to the president. 688 00:34:50,752 --> 00:34:52,086 Don't make the false assumption this year 689 00:34:52,170 --> 00:34:53,755 that because we did it in years past, 690 00:34:53,838 --> 00:34:55,048 we're gonna do it this year. 691 00:34:55,131 --> 00:34:57,091 This industry is watching very carefully 692 00:34:57,175 --> 00:34:59,886 who's gonna stand up for them when their job is at stake. 693 00:35:00,094 --> 00:35:03,181 [Lawrence Lessig] Then it was like this blatant display 694 00:35:03,264 --> 00:35:06,309 of quid pro quo kind of threat. 695 00:35:06,392 --> 00:35:08,895 "Okay fine, you're not gonna support our SOPA/PIPA, 696 00:35:08,978 --> 00:35:10,855 don't come to us for campaign money." 697 00:35:10,939 --> 00:35:12,941 Now, on the one hand, everybody in Washington knows 698 00:35:13,024 --> 00:35:14,734 that's the way things work, 699 00:35:14,818 --> 00:35:17,779 but on the other hand, to be so blatant about it 700 00:35:17,946 --> 00:35:21,783 was really quite outrageous and stupid 701 00:35:21,866 --> 00:35:24,202 because after he said that, 702 00:35:24,410 --> 00:35:26,621 what Senator could afford to change his vote? 703 00:35:26,788 --> 00:35:29,249 If you do, it's obviously you're doing it in response 704 00:35:29,332 --> 00:35:31,209 to the threat from the MPAA, 705 00:35:31,292 --> 00:35:34,003 which demonstrates the power of the MPAA 706 00:35:34,087 --> 00:35:35,922 to force you to do something you otherwise wouldn't do. 707 00:35:36,005 --> 00:35:37,882 It was a moment where the industry wakes up 708 00:35:37,966 --> 00:35:41,719 to recognize that they actually don't control the field, 709 00:35:42,136 --> 00:35:46,140 that you know, when the giant was sleeping, 710 00:35:46,975 --> 00:35:48,810 they could get all sorts of things through, 711 00:35:48,893 --> 00:35:50,353 but the giant has woken up. 712 00:35:51,062 --> 00:35:54,232 And every time we can frame these issues 713 00:35:54,315 --> 00:35:56,401 in a way that plugs in to these, 714 00:35:56,734 --> 00:35:58,069 this interest of the Internet, 715 00:35:58,152 --> 00:35:59,737 which is this interesting libertarian 716 00:36:00,029 --> 00:36:02,907 and liberal alliance, the Internet's gonna wake up. 717 00:36:03,116 --> 00:36:04,826 [male newscaster] Senate support has fallen apart. 718 00:36:04,909 --> 00:36:08,913 Now majority leader Harry Reid has scrapped Tuesday's vote. 719 00:36:08,997 --> 00:36:11,666 In the House, similar bill, same political problems, 720 00:36:11,833 --> 00:36:13,793 and the Speaker is urging committee leaders 721 00:36:13,877 --> 00:36:15,336 to just work this out. 722 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,089 [Aaron Swartz] The people rose up 723 00:36:18,172 --> 00:36:20,008 and they caused a sea change in Washington. 724 00:36:20,174 --> 00:36:22,719 Not the press, which refused to cover the story. 725 00:36:22,802 --> 00:36:24,637 Just coincidentally, their parent companies 726 00:36:24,721 --> 00:36:26,723 all happened to be lobbying for the bill. 727 00:36:26,806 --> 00:36:28,808 It was really stopped by the people. 728 00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:30,226 They killed the bill dead. 729 00:36:31,144 --> 00:36:35,231 So dead that it's kind of hard to believe this story, 730 00:36:36,316 --> 00:36:37,901 hard to remember how close 731 00:36:37,984 --> 00:36:39,736 it all came to actually passing. 732 00:36:39,819 --> 00:36:41,738 But it wasn't a dream or a nightmare. 733 00:36:41,863 --> 00:36:45,033 It was all very real, and it will happen again. 734 00:36:45,116 --> 00:36:47,577 Sure, it will have yet another name, 735 00:36:47,660 --> 00:36:50,705 and maybe a different excuse, but make no mistake. 736 00:36:51,456 --> 00:36:52,832 The enemies of the freedom to connect 737 00:36:52,916 --> 00:36:54,250 have not disappeared. 738 00:36:55,001 --> 00:36:58,421 The fire in those politicians eyes hasn't been put out. 739 00:36:59,505 --> 00:37:03,092 [Kim Dotcom] They had an agenda that is about 740 00:37:03,217 --> 00:37:05,470 more control over the Internet, 741 00:37:05,887 --> 00:37:08,181 and they made a strategic decision to say, 742 00:37:08,264 --> 00:37:11,351 "Who are we going to take out to send a strong message?" 743 00:37:11,684 --> 00:37:13,019 And I was the one. 744 00:37:13,645 --> 00:37:18,650 [triumphant instrumental music playing] 745 00:37:53,184 --> 00:37:55,645 [Special Tactics Officer] Mr. Dotcom has been shown 746 00:37:55,728 --> 00:37:59,148 the warrant to search the property. He acknowledges it. 747 00:37:59,607 --> 00:38:02,860 [female newscaster] The Mega case against Megaupload is still at a standstill. 748 00:38:03,152 --> 00:38:05,363 Prosecution says it cannot gather enough evidence 749 00:38:05,446 --> 00:38:09,075 against Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom in a timely matter 750 00:38:09,158 --> 00:38:11,411 because there's simply too much on the servers. 751 00:38:11,494 --> 00:38:13,079 This comes after a local court rule 752 00:38:13,162 --> 00:38:15,999 that the confiscation of his fortune was illegal. 753 00:38:16,082 --> 00:38:17,792 Now, New Zealand won't extradite Kim 754 00:38:17,875 --> 00:38:20,253 until the evidence against him is fully accounted for. 755 00:38:20,336 --> 00:38:23,923 So, what's gonna happen to the 50 million user accounts' data 756 00:38:24,007 --> 00:38:26,843 that was shut down with the take down of Megaupload, 757 00:38:27,010 --> 00:38:28,553 and what does this mean for copyright battle 758 00:38:28,636 --> 00:38:30,513 and Internet freedoms at large? 759 00:38:30,596 --> 00:38:32,473 Aaron Swartz, founder and executive director 760 00:38:32,557 --> 00:38:35,143 of Demand Progress joins me now. 761 00:38:35,226 --> 00:38:37,186 Do you think that this is just the content industry 762 00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:40,106 having the government do their bidding for them? 763 00:38:40,189 --> 00:38:44,819 I mean, this did happen days after SOPA was knocked down. 764 00:38:44,902 --> 00:38:46,696 Yeah, I mean, there's no question 765 00:38:46,779 --> 00:38:48,740 that the content industry is behind all of this, 766 00:38:48,823 --> 00:38:51,034 and it's ridiculous that the government is doing their bidding. 767 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,413 [Kim Dotcom] It's all a game to them, really, 768 00:38:55,496 --> 00:38:57,165 and we are all the little puppets 769 00:38:57,248 --> 00:38:59,042 that they think they can kick around. 770 00:38:59,125 --> 00:39:00,877 So we need to organize. 771 00:39:01,044 --> 00:39:05,173 There needs to be a movement that identifies these things 772 00:39:05,256 --> 00:39:08,134 and fights that, not with shutting down websites, 773 00:39:08,217 --> 00:39:10,511 but with real protests. 774 00:39:10,595 --> 00:39:14,223 Going out on the streets, writing to politicians, 775 00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:17,518 and especially, most importantly, 776 00:39:17,602 --> 00:39:22,273 don't vote for the guys that are against Internet freedom. 777 00:39:22,356 --> 00:39:23,733 I'm not Aaron Swartz. 778 00:39:23,816 --> 00:39:26,152 Aaron Swartz is my hero. He was selfless. 779 00:39:26,402 --> 00:39:29,405 He is completely the opposite of me, 780 00:39:29,489 --> 00:39:31,657 but I mean, he stopped SOPA. 781 00:39:32,158 --> 00:39:36,204 [Peter Ludlow] Aaron was able to mobilize the Internet through Reddit 782 00:39:36,287 --> 00:39:39,540 and other places, and he shut it down. 783 00:39:40,208 --> 00:39:45,171 Now, we say, "Wow, what a hero! Aaron, that's tremendous." 784 00:39:45,254 --> 00:39:48,966 But you think now, how many billions of dollars were lost 785 00:39:50,468 --> 00:39:53,137 by multinational corporations because of that? 786 00:39:54,222 --> 00:39:57,183 Okay, and how many more billions of dollars are gonna be lost 787 00:39:57,266 --> 00:40:00,978 when the next one comes along, you know, when TPP comes along? 788 00:40:02,146 --> 00:40:04,315 You need to shut this kid up 789 00:40:04,690 --> 00:40:06,818 and you need to shut him down. 790 00:40:07,527 --> 00:40:10,113 Right? And you need to do whatever it takes to do that. 791 00:40:35,888 --> 00:40:37,014 I was in Mexico. 792 00:40:37,098 --> 00:40:39,267 I was giving a... I just finished giving a talk, 793 00:40:39,350 --> 00:40:40,643 and I got a call from his friend. 794 00:40:40,852 --> 00:40:42,270 That's when I learned. 795 00:40:45,648 --> 00:40:47,608 I went onto the Internet to see if anybody had noticed, 796 00:40:47,692 --> 00:40:50,987 and had this thought, "Well, what if nobody notices?" 797 00:40:51,070 --> 00:40:53,656 And then finally fell asleep at about 2 in the morning, 798 00:40:55,116 --> 00:40:57,160 and I had to get up to catch a plane at 5. 799 00:40:58,369 --> 00:41:01,831 When I got up, I looked on the net and it had just begun to explode. 800 00:41:03,749 --> 00:41:06,127 And I furiously typed a blog post 801 00:41:06,210 --> 00:41:08,337 and then raced to the airport. 802 00:41:09,338 --> 00:41:11,424 And then on the flight from Mexico to someplace, 803 00:41:11,507 --> 00:41:14,385 I don't know where it landed, someplace in Texas I think. 804 00:41:14,468 --> 00:41:18,806 I had written another very angry, long blog post about, 805 00:41:19,265 --> 00:41:22,143 "Improsecutor as bully" was the title, 806 00:41:22,226 --> 00:41:24,020 which I posted when I landed. 807 00:41:24,103 --> 00:41:27,607 And you know, I think it was the thing I've written 808 00:41:27,690 --> 00:41:29,192 that's been read by the most people ever. 809 00:41:29,275 --> 00:41:33,529 I mean, it just became the kind of defining frame 810 00:41:33,613 --> 00:41:35,281 for what had happened. 811 00:41:42,788 --> 00:41:47,793 Yeah, that's our government, our kids. 812 00:41:52,465 --> 00:41:55,426 [male newscaster] There's a profound sense of loss tonight in Highland Park, 813 00:41:55,509 --> 00:41:58,721 Aaron Swartz's hometown, as loved ones say good bye 814 00:41:58,804 --> 00:42:01,265 to one of the Internet's brightest lights. 815 00:42:01,349 --> 00:42:04,518 He hadn't told me what was going on when we first started dating. 816 00:42:04,602 --> 00:42:06,520 All I knew was that there was something bad 817 00:42:06,604 --> 00:42:07,521 happening in his life, 818 00:42:07,605 --> 00:42:09,732 and that I was a good distraction from it. 819 00:42:12,693 --> 00:42:14,570 [Lawrence Lessig] Yeah, Aaron was depressed. 820 00:42:14,654 --> 00:42:16,405 He was rationally depressed. 821 00:42:17,490 --> 00:42:19,867 You know, he was losing everything. 822 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,081 [Taren Stinebrickner-Kauffman] The whole thing was so hard and so stressful. 823 00:42:25,456 --> 00:42:27,708 He carried so much of the weight of it on his own. 824 00:42:28,251 --> 00:42:30,962 He didn't wanna involve any of his friends. 825 00:42:31,045 --> 00:42:33,965 [Lawrence Lessig] I don't have patience for people who wanna say, 826 00:42:34,048 --> 00:42:36,259 "Oh, this was just a crazy person. 827 00:42:36,342 --> 00:42:38,970 This was just a person with a psychological problem." 828 00:42:39,345 --> 00:42:42,974 This was somebody who was pushed to the edge 829 00:42:43,266 --> 00:42:46,852 by what I think of as a kind of bullying by our government. 830 00:42:51,691 --> 00:42:54,485 All of us think there are a thousand things we could have done, 831 00:42:55,569 --> 00:43:00,658 a thousand things we could have done, 832 00:43:00,908 --> 00:43:02,868 and we have to do, 833 00:43:03,119 --> 00:43:07,331 because Aaron Swartz is now an icon and ideal. 834 00:43:08,332 --> 00:43:10,960 He is what we will be fighting for, all of us, 835 00:43:11,836 --> 00:43:13,671 for the rest of our lives. 836 00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:17,300 When we turn armed agents of the law 837 00:43:17,383 --> 00:43:20,720 on citizens trying to increase access to knowledge, 838 00:43:20,803 --> 00:43:22,805 we've broken the rule of law, 839 00:43:22,888 --> 00:43:25,433 we've desecrated the temple of justice. 840 00:43:25,516 --> 00:43:28,561 Aaron Swartz was not a criminal. 841 00:43:29,145 --> 00:43:32,440 When the U.S. Attorney told Aaron he had to plead guilty 842 00:43:32,523 --> 00:43:36,777 to 13 felonies for attempting to propagate knowledge 843 00:43:37,069 --> 00:43:39,405 before she'd even consider a deal, 844 00:43:39,488 --> 00:43:41,324 that was an abuse of power, 845 00:43:41,407 --> 00:43:44,618 a misuse of the criminal justice system. 846 00:43:45,578 --> 00:43:48,831 That was a crime against justice. 847 00:43:53,294 --> 00:43:54,587 It doesn't change. 848 00:43:54,670 --> 00:43:56,464 No, it never changes. 849 00:43:58,382 --> 00:43:59,925 Yeah, it's always there. 850 00:44:00,009 --> 00:44:05,264 So... you know, he came to me, and it was December 2006. 851 00:44:05,348 --> 00:44:08,559 He was in Berlin for the Chaos Computer Conference, 852 00:44:10,186 --> 00:44:12,897 and I was in Berlin for the year, so he came to visit. 853 00:44:12,980 --> 00:44:16,275 And we talked for the afternoon and evening, 854 00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:21,364 and we talked about the issues I was working on, 855 00:44:21,447 --> 00:44:24,116 copyright issues and the Internet issues, 856 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,410 network neutrality was one of the issues. 857 00:44:26,786 --> 00:44:29,372 And he just-- you know, he said to me, 858 00:44:29,455 --> 00:44:33,417 "Why do you expect that you're ever gonna win on these issues 859 00:44:33,501 --> 00:44:36,879 so long as there's this corrupt system of our government?" 860 00:44:36,962 --> 00:44:39,298 And I said to him, "Well, you know, it's not expertise. 861 00:44:39,382 --> 00:44:40,549 It's not my field." 862 00:44:41,092 --> 00:44:44,428 And he said, "I get that as a professor, but as a citizen, 863 00:44:45,846 --> 00:44:47,389 how are you gonna win?" 864 00:44:47,598 --> 00:44:52,019 And it... you know, it is that Aaron-type question 865 00:44:52,103 --> 00:44:54,688 because it's implicitly suggesting, 866 00:44:54,772 --> 00:44:56,690 "You have a role. It's your job." 867 00:44:56,774 --> 00:44:58,692 You know, there's not a debate about that. 868 00:44:58,776 --> 00:45:00,528 It's just now that we know it's your job, 869 00:45:00,611 --> 00:45:03,864 then what are you gonna do to carry through on your work? 870 00:45:04,532 --> 00:45:07,451 And that was very powerful with me. 871 00:45:14,125 --> 00:45:15,042 [Piers Morgan] Breaking news. 872 00:45:15,126 --> 00:45:17,378 U.S. intelligence agencies have been secretly operating 873 00:45:17,461 --> 00:45:21,173 a broad data mining program that collected e-mail, photos, 874 00:45:21,257 --> 00:45:24,260 and just about everything else from private communications 875 00:45:24,343 --> 00:45:25,886 from most Americans. 876 00:45:25,970 --> 00:45:28,264 That's according to the Washington Post and the Guardian. 877 00:45:28,430 --> 00:45:31,725 The Post says that Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, AOL, 878 00:45:31,809 --> 00:45:34,687 Skype, YouTube, and Apple are all involved. 879 00:45:34,770 --> 00:45:36,814 Well, joining me now is reporter Glenn Greenwald. 880 00:45:36,897 --> 00:45:38,983 Tell me briefly what the latest development is. 881 00:45:39,066 --> 00:45:42,444 What this program enables the National Security Agency to do 882 00:45:42,528 --> 00:45:44,822 is to reach directly into the servers 883 00:45:44,905 --> 00:45:48,033 of the largest Internet companies in the world, 884 00:45:48,117 --> 00:45:50,035 things that virtually every human being 885 00:45:50,119 --> 00:45:52,454 in the Western world now uses 886 00:45:52,538 --> 00:45:53,956 to communicate with one another, 887 00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:56,834 and take whatever it is that they want without any checks of any kind. 888 00:45:56,917 --> 00:45:58,544 There's no courts looking over their shoulder 889 00:45:58,627 --> 00:45:59,920 to see what they're taking, 890 00:46:00,004 --> 00:46:01,547 and they don't even have the check 891 00:46:01,630 --> 00:46:03,424 that they have to go to the Internet companies 892 00:46:03,507 --> 00:46:04,550 and ask for it any longer. 893 00:46:04,633 --> 00:46:06,302 They've been given or have taken 894 00:46:06,385 --> 00:46:08,596 direct access into the pipes 895 00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:10,681 where all of these conversations take place 896 00:46:10,806 --> 00:46:14,059 and can suck up whatever it is that they want at any given moment. 897 00:46:15,728 --> 00:46:19,398 [ominous music playing] 898 00:46:28,574 --> 00:46:34,205 [Edward Snowden] I don't wanna live in a world where everything that I say, 899 00:46:34,288 --> 00:46:35,789 everything I do, everyone I talk to, 900 00:46:35,873 --> 00:46:38,959 every expression of creativity or love 901 00:46:39,043 --> 00:46:41,503 or friendship is recorded. 902 00:46:42,046 --> 00:46:45,007 That's not something I'm willing to support, 903 00:46:45,090 --> 00:46:46,425 it's not something I'm willing to build, 904 00:46:46,508 --> 00:46:49,261 and it's not something I'm willing to live under. 905 00:46:56,185 --> 00:46:58,395 [Dick Cheney] Well, I'm deeply suspicious, obviously, 906 00:46:58,479 --> 00:46:59,647 because he went to China. 907 00:46:59,730 --> 00:47:01,982 That's not a place where you'd ordinarily wanna go 908 00:47:02,066 --> 00:47:03,901 if you're interested in freedom. 909 00:47:03,984 --> 00:47:05,527 [male] It's sad, right? 910 00:47:05,611 --> 00:47:07,446 We've made treason cool. 911 00:47:07,529 --> 00:47:11,450 I mean, we need to get very, very serious about treason. 912 00:47:11,659 --> 00:47:13,661 You bring back the death penalty. 913 00:47:15,287 --> 00:47:17,957 [Edward Snowden] Any analyst at any time can target anyone, 914 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,625 any selector, anywhere. 915 00:47:19,708 --> 00:47:22,670 I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities 916 00:47:22,753 --> 00:47:26,674 to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant 917 00:47:26,757 --> 00:47:28,717 to a federal judge, to even the president 918 00:47:28,801 --> 00:47:30,594 if I had a personal e-mail. 919 00:47:30,761 --> 00:47:33,764 Prism is about content. 920 00:47:33,847 --> 00:47:35,641 It's a program through which 921 00:47:35,724 --> 00:47:38,602 the government could compel corporate America. 922 00:47:38,686 --> 00:47:41,647 It could sort of deputize corporate America 923 00:47:41,730 --> 00:47:44,858 to do its dirty work for the NSA. 924 00:47:44,942 --> 00:47:49,363 The NSA's own slides refer to it as direct access. 925 00:47:49,738 --> 00:47:50,948 But the bottom line is 926 00:47:51,031 --> 00:47:54,243 when we talk about how this information is given, 927 00:47:55,077 --> 00:47:58,289 it's coming from the companies themselves. 928 00:48:03,919 --> 00:48:05,879 [Tim Wu] You imagine a partnership with Facebook 929 00:48:05,963 --> 00:48:07,881 and the federal government. 930 00:48:07,965 --> 00:48:11,677 Facebook could do a lot that would be like intelligence work. 931 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,847 They know a lot about us, and so this is the problem 932 00:48:14,930 --> 00:48:16,974 of overly-concentrated private power 933 00:48:17,057 --> 00:48:21,103 is it becomes an instrument of government action. 934 00:48:21,478 --> 00:48:24,231 You don't have to have done anything wrong. 935 00:48:24,398 --> 00:48:26,066 You simply have to eventually 936 00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:29,653 fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call, 937 00:48:29,737 --> 00:48:32,614 and then they can use the system to go back in time 938 00:48:32,698 --> 00:48:34,992 and scrutinize every decision you've ever made. 939 00:48:35,075 --> 00:48:36,535 I think he's a traitor. 940 00:48:36,618 --> 00:48:38,829 [Edward Snowden] Every friend you've ever discussed something with. 941 00:48:38,912 --> 00:48:40,372 He's a traitor. 942 00:48:40,456 --> 00:48:43,584 And paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer. 943 00:48:43,667 --> 00:48:45,627 No, I don't think Mr. Snowden was a patriot. 944 00:48:45,794 --> 00:48:47,504 I think what we have in Edward Snowden 945 00:48:47,588 --> 00:48:49,590 is just a narcissistic young man. 946 00:48:49,673 --> 00:48:52,176 He is not a patriot. He is not a hero. 947 00:48:52,259 --> 00:48:55,054 It is literally, not figuratively, 948 00:48:55,137 --> 00:48:57,848 literally gut-wrenching to see this happen 949 00:48:57,931 --> 00:49:01,602 because of the huge, grave damage 950 00:49:01,685 --> 00:49:04,938 it does to our intelligence capabilities. 951 00:49:05,022 --> 00:49:08,650 If I had just wanted to harm the U.S., you know, 952 00:49:09,902 --> 00:49:13,530 you could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon. 953 00:49:13,655 --> 00:49:15,532 [interviewer] You do not dispute that Edward Snowden 954 00:49:15,616 --> 00:49:17,284 has broken the law, do you? 955 00:49:17,368 --> 00:49:19,661 No, I think he's very clear about the fact that he did it 956 00:49:19,745 --> 00:49:21,955 because his conscience compelled him to do so, 957 00:49:22,039 --> 00:49:24,458 just like Daniel Ellsberg did 50 years ago. 958 00:49:24,541 --> 00:49:26,210 When he released the Pentagon Papers, 959 00:49:26,293 --> 00:49:28,087 and also admits that he broke the law. 960 00:49:28,170 --> 00:49:29,713 I think the question, though is 961 00:49:29,797 --> 00:49:31,840 how can he be charged with espionage? 962 00:49:31,924 --> 00:49:33,717 He didn't work for a foreign government. 963 00:49:33,801 --> 00:49:35,135 He could have sold this information 964 00:49:35,219 --> 00:49:37,221 for millions of dollars and enriched himself. 965 00:49:37,304 --> 00:49:38,847 He didn't do any of that other. 966 00:49:38,931 --> 00:49:40,349 He stepped forward, 967 00:49:40,432 --> 00:49:42,351 and as we want people to do in a democracy, 968 00:49:42,434 --> 00:49:44,311 as a government official, learned of wrong doing 969 00:49:44,395 --> 00:49:46,772 and exposed it so we could have a democratic debate 970 00:49:46,855 --> 00:49:48,190 about the spying system. 971 00:49:48,273 --> 00:49:50,567 Do we really wanna put people like that in prison for life 972 00:49:50,943 --> 00:49:53,612 When all they're doing is telling us as citizens 973 00:49:53,695 --> 00:49:56,156 what our political officials are doing in the dark? 974 00:49:58,033 --> 00:50:00,744 [female newscaster] Edward Snowden, the man who told the world 975 00:50:00,828 --> 00:50:02,913 about the federal government's sweeping top secret 976 00:50:02,996 --> 00:50:04,832 domestic spying program 977 00:50:04,915 --> 00:50:07,584 is on the move as we speak this morning. 978 00:50:08,919 --> 00:50:11,547 [Edward Snowden] If they wanna get you, they'll get you in time. 979 00:50:11,630 --> 00:50:13,465 But at the same time, 980 00:50:13,549 --> 00:50:16,260 you have to make a determination about what it is 981 00:50:16,343 --> 00:50:17,302 that's important to you. 982 00:50:17,386 --> 00:50:19,096 [male newscaster] Officials in Hong Kong say Snowden, 983 00:50:19,179 --> 00:50:20,472 who's been charged with espionage 984 00:50:20,556 --> 00:50:22,766 by the U.S. Government, boarded a plane overnight. 985 00:50:22,850 --> 00:50:24,184 He will soon land in Russia, 986 00:50:24,268 --> 00:50:26,478 and this morning, the group WikiLeaks 987 00:50:26,562 --> 00:50:28,939 claims to be helping Snowden get away. 988 00:50:29,022 --> 00:50:31,567 It's been a stunning turn of events here today. 989 00:50:31,650 --> 00:50:35,404 Edward Snowden, the man wanted on charges of espionage, 990 00:50:35,529 --> 00:50:39,158 suddenly out of the country, managing to board a flight 991 00:50:39,241 --> 00:50:41,618 from Hong Kong to, we believe, Russia. 992 00:50:41,702 --> 00:50:43,245 [male 2] There was no way to arrest him, 993 00:50:43,328 --> 00:50:44,705 according to the Hong Kong authorities, 994 00:50:44,788 --> 00:50:47,374 and, quote, "No legal basis to restrict Mr. Snowden 995 00:50:47,458 --> 00:50:48,876 from leaving Hong Kong." 996 00:50:48,959 --> 00:50:50,878 So, is there any pressure the United States can bring 997 00:50:50,961 --> 00:50:52,880 to bear on the Russians, with whom we already have 998 00:50:52,963 --> 00:50:54,798 an icy relationship, 999 00:50:54,882 --> 00:50:56,884 to stop him from carrying out this itinerary? 1000 00:50:56,967 --> 00:50:58,302 [George] We're running this down right now, 1001 00:50:58,385 --> 00:51:00,387 but apparently though, there's nothing The United States can do 1002 00:51:00,471 --> 00:51:02,806 as long as Snowden remains in that airport, 1003 00:51:02,890 --> 00:51:05,851 if he lands in Moscow in transit to Cuba. 1004 00:51:05,934 --> 00:51:09,313 Apparently he's booked on a 2 pm. flight tomorrow to Cuba, 1005 00:51:09,396 --> 00:51:11,523 and some reports that he would then go on, 1006 00:51:11,607 --> 00:51:13,192 as you said to Venezuela. 1007 00:51:13,275 --> 00:51:15,110 [female newscaster] People are wondering how was this man 1008 00:51:15,194 --> 00:51:16,695 able to outmaneuver the U.S., 1009 00:51:16,778 --> 00:51:19,406 the top spy agency in the world, not once but now twice, 1010 00:51:19,490 --> 00:51:20,365 if we can't even locate him. 1011 00:51:20,449 --> 00:51:23,452 That is the big question. He was accessing all of this information 1012 00:51:23,535 --> 00:51:25,954 from Booz Allen in Hawaii, 1013 00:51:26,038 --> 00:51:28,624 and the alarm bells didn't go off in a way 1014 00:51:28,707 --> 00:51:31,752 that he could be stopped before he slipped out of the country, 1015 00:51:31,919 --> 00:51:34,254 into Hong Kong, and now on his way to Moscow. 1016 00:51:39,259 --> 00:51:41,803 [male newscaster] Mr. Snowden has indeed arrived in Moscow. 1017 00:51:41,887 --> 00:51:45,015 It was completely unexpected. 1018 00:51:45,098 --> 00:51:47,893 I have not called President Putin personally, 1019 00:51:47,976 --> 00:51:50,229 and the reason is because I shouldn't have to. 1020 00:51:52,105 --> 00:51:53,815 No, I'm not gonna be scrambling jets 1021 00:51:53,899 --> 00:51:57,903 to get a 29-year-old... hacker 1022 00:51:57,986 --> 00:52:00,322 [air traffic controller] Bravo 001, do you need any assistance upon landing? 1023 00:52:00,405 --> 00:52:03,909 [pilot] No, we need to land because we are not... 1024 00:52:03,992 --> 00:52:06,203 we cannot get a correct indication. 1025 00:52:06,328 --> 00:52:08,038 Evo Morales, Bolivia's leader, 1026 00:52:08,121 --> 00:52:10,040 was forced to spend the night in Vienna 1027 00:52:10,123 --> 00:52:11,875 after his plane was rerouted. 1028 00:52:11,959 --> 00:52:13,919 Bolivian officials say it all stemmed from a rumor 1029 00:52:14,002 --> 00:52:17,673 that Snowden had hitched a ride from Russia 1030 00:52:17,756 --> 00:52:19,091 on the president's jet. 1031 00:52:19,883 --> 00:52:22,719 [male newscaster] Edward Snowden, we are told, has now walked free, 1032 00:52:22,803 --> 00:52:24,137 and actually crossed the immigration zone 1033 00:52:24,221 --> 00:52:26,890 and entered Russia officially. 1034 00:52:27,683 --> 00:52:30,561 [Peter Ludlow] He saw that if he just continued to let things happen 1035 00:52:30,644 --> 00:52:32,437 as they were happening, 1036 00:52:32,521 --> 00:52:34,731 this policy would go on unchecked, 1037 00:52:35,315 --> 00:52:38,819 And he was gonna have to go against his supervisors, 1038 00:52:38,902 --> 00:52:41,738 he was gonna have to break organizational protocol, 1039 00:52:41,822 --> 00:52:45,576 and he did it because he could not participate 1040 00:52:45,659 --> 00:52:48,870 in a system that was doing something evil. 1041 00:52:49,788 --> 00:52:53,083 [Edward Snowden] When I really came to struggle with these issues, 1042 00:52:53,166 --> 00:52:54,585 I thought to myself, 1043 00:52:54,668 --> 00:52:57,713 "How can I do this in the most responsible way 1044 00:52:57,796 --> 00:53:00,549 that maximizes the public benefit, 1045 00:53:01,174 --> 00:53:02,884 while minimizing the risks?" 1046 00:53:03,969 --> 00:53:07,598 Out of going to Congress when there was no laws, 1047 00:53:07,681 --> 00:53:10,892 there were no legal protections for a private employee, 1048 00:53:10,976 --> 00:53:13,437 a contractor in intelligence like myself, 1049 00:53:14,187 --> 00:53:16,481 there was a risk that I would be buried 1050 00:53:16,565 --> 00:53:17,691 along with the information, 1051 00:53:17,774 --> 00:53:19,526 and the public would never find out. 1052 00:53:19,776 --> 00:53:22,696 But the First Amendment of the United States Constitution 1053 00:53:22,779 --> 00:53:26,241 guarantees us a free press for a reason, 1054 00:53:26,742 --> 00:53:29,328 and that's to enable an adversarial press 1055 00:53:29,911 --> 00:53:32,831 to challenge the government to have a dialogue and debate 1056 00:53:32,914 --> 00:53:35,459 about how we can inform the public 1057 00:53:35,542 --> 00:53:38,337 about matters of vital importance 1058 00:53:39,296 --> 00:53:41,965 without putting our national security at risk. 1059 00:53:45,010 --> 00:53:47,929 [Lawrence Lessig] The whole way to think about security 1060 00:53:48,013 --> 00:53:49,890 in the big data world is different. 1061 00:53:49,973 --> 00:53:52,267 You know, we use to have government surveillance 1062 00:53:52,517 --> 00:53:53,894 that was episodic. 1063 00:53:54,269 --> 00:53:56,813 First, physical invasions episodically. 1064 00:53:56,897 --> 00:53:58,899 You know, the police would break into your house 1065 00:53:58,982 --> 00:54:00,108 and search for something. 1066 00:54:00,651 --> 00:54:03,612 And then virtual invasions that were episodic. 1067 00:54:03,695 --> 00:54:04,988 They would tap your phone. 1068 00:54:05,072 --> 00:54:06,239 But because it was episodic, 1069 00:54:06,323 --> 00:54:08,158 the legal system was pretty good at handling it 1070 00:54:08,241 --> 00:54:10,744 because every time you wanted to intervene, 1071 00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:14,206 the question was did you have enough evidence 1072 00:54:14,289 --> 00:54:17,542 to justify that breach of somebody's privacy? 1073 00:54:18,543 --> 00:54:20,295 But the architecture of information now 1074 00:54:20,379 --> 00:54:22,172 is persistent surveillance. 1075 00:54:22,255 --> 00:54:24,049 There's always surveillance, 1076 00:54:24,132 --> 00:54:26,718 constant data gathered in every single point. 1077 00:54:27,844 --> 00:54:29,346 And in that world, 1078 00:54:30,347 --> 00:54:32,307 the issue isn't so much whether there's surveillance 1079 00:54:32,391 --> 00:54:34,476 the issue is what are the restrictions 1080 00:54:34,559 --> 00:54:38,105 on how you use the data you have collected, 1081 00:54:38,188 --> 00:54:41,024 and how do we have confidence in those restrictions 1082 00:54:41,108 --> 00:54:43,568 or confidence that those restrictions are being respected? 1083 00:54:44,486 --> 00:54:47,072 And that's gonna require a different way of thinking 1084 00:54:47,155 --> 00:54:48,740 about protection, 1085 00:54:49,408 --> 00:54:51,368 and it's not... 1086 00:54:51,451 --> 00:54:53,912 it's completely obvious that we're nowhere close 1087 00:54:53,995 --> 00:54:55,622 to working that part out. 1088 00:54:58,792 --> 00:55:01,169 [Edward Snowden] To see officials testifying under oath 1089 00:55:01,253 --> 00:55:02,838 that there have been no abuses, 1090 00:55:02,921 --> 00:55:05,757 that there have been no violations of the NSA's rules, 1091 00:55:06,591 --> 00:55:08,927 when we knew this story was coming. 1092 00:55:09,386 --> 00:55:14,099 Does the NSA collect any type of data at all 1093 00:55:14,182 --> 00:55:17,018 on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans? 1094 00:55:18,311 --> 00:55:19,813 No sir. 1095 00:55:20,355 --> 00:55:21,481 It does not? 1096 00:55:22,733 --> 00:55:24,151 Not wittingly. 1097 00:55:24,609 --> 00:55:28,655 The NSA lied about the existence of this tool. 1098 00:55:29,156 --> 00:55:32,951 So, I responded in what I thought was the most truthful, 1099 00:55:33,034 --> 00:55:36,163 or least untruthful manner, by saying no. 1100 00:55:36,329 --> 00:55:40,584 [Rand Paul] Mr. Clapper lied in Congress, in defiance of the law, 1101 00:55:40,667 --> 00:55:42,335 in the name of security. 1102 00:55:42,419 --> 00:55:45,130 Mr. Snowden told the truth in the name of privacy. 1103 00:55:45,630 --> 00:55:47,716 Mr. Snowden hasn't lied to anyone. 1104 00:55:48,216 --> 00:55:50,218 He did break his oath of office, 1105 00:55:50,302 --> 00:55:53,054 but part of his oath of office is to the Constitution. 1106 00:55:53,555 --> 00:55:57,350 [female newscaster] After all of this, are you as amazed as I am 1107 00:55:57,642 --> 00:55:59,936 that with all of this dragnet, 1108 00:56:00,312 --> 00:56:03,482 somehow the Boston Marathon bomber got through, 1109 00:56:03,565 --> 00:56:06,985 that Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who had plenty of indicators 1110 00:56:07,068 --> 00:56:10,238 that he may be up to no good on the Internet and elsewhere, 1111 00:56:10,322 --> 00:56:11,990 got through this dragnet? 1112 00:56:12,073 --> 00:56:13,867 The more information they collect 1113 00:56:13,950 --> 00:56:16,369 about innocent Americans, the less able they are 1114 00:56:16,453 --> 00:56:18,830 to actually prevent terrorist attacks, 1115 00:56:18,914 --> 00:56:21,082 because at some point, it becomes counter-productive. 1116 00:56:21,166 --> 00:56:23,001 They have so much information, 1117 00:56:23,084 --> 00:56:24,586 that they don't even know what they have anymore 1118 00:56:24,669 --> 00:56:25,962 and they can't put it together. 1119 00:56:26,046 --> 00:56:28,507 Remember that the 9/11 commission made clear 1120 00:56:28,590 --> 00:56:29,925 that The United States government 1121 00:56:30,008 --> 00:56:33,094 had in its possession enough evidence to have alerted it 1122 00:56:33,178 --> 00:56:36,097 to the existence of the 9/11 attack 1123 00:56:36,181 --> 00:56:38,475 and simply never, in its words, connected the dots. 1124 00:56:38,558 --> 00:56:40,018 The problem was never that they weren't 1125 00:56:40,101 --> 00:56:41,394 collecting enough information. 1126 00:56:41,478 --> 00:56:43,855 The problem is that they just don't know what they have, 1127 00:56:43,939 --> 00:56:46,650 and the more they become obsessed with sweeping up 1128 00:56:46,733 --> 00:56:49,945 billions of conversational data point every day 1129 00:56:50,028 --> 00:56:52,322 and expanding that surveillance net, 1130 00:56:52,405 --> 00:56:54,991 the less able they're gonna be to achieve 1131 00:56:55,075 --> 00:56:57,744 what the ostensible purpose of this program is, 1132 00:56:57,828 --> 00:56:59,996 which is to stop things like the Boston Marathon killing, 1133 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,748 which they utterly failed to do. 1134 00:57:05,877 --> 00:57:07,212 [Peter Ludlow] People always ask me, 1135 00:57:07,295 --> 00:57:09,089 "Is Ed Snowden a hero or a traitor?" 1136 00:57:09,172 --> 00:57:12,050 The real question is, is what he did right or wrong? 1137 00:57:12,843 --> 00:57:14,094 Forget about whether he's a hero. 1138 00:57:14,469 --> 00:57:16,346 It shouldn't even be considered heroic. 1139 00:57:16,429 --> 00:57:18,181 It should be considered his duty. 1140 00:57:18,557 --> 00:57:21,852 He has a duty to uphold the Constitution of the United States. 1141 00:57:22,102 --> 00:57:24,563 He has a duty to fellow citizens 1142 00:57:24,646 --> 00:57:26,231 to see that they're not enslaved 1143 00:57:26,314 --> 00:57:30,819 and they're not become part of like a 1984 dystopia. 1144 00:57:31,319 --> 00:57:32,654 I don't consider him a hero. 1145 00:57:32,737 --> 00:57:35,824 I just consider him as a guy who, on that day, 1146 00:57:35,991 --> 00:57:37,659 did what he was supposed to do. 1147 00:57:38,243 --> 00:57:40,453 Good for him for that. You know, for the same reason, 1148 00:57:40,537 --> 00:57:42,831 I'm not gonna call Aaron Swartz a hero. 1149 00:57:42,914 --> 00:57:46,209 I'm gonna say he did what he ought to do. 1150 00:57:50,505 --> 00:57:53,967 They're different forces in these two fields, you know? 1151 00:57:54,593 --> 00:57:58,346 Aaron was in the minefield of copyright, 1152 00:58:00,182 --> 00:58:04,352 and the pressure to be extreme in the minefield of copyright 1153 00:58:05,854 --> 00:58:08,648 comes, in my view, from the extraordinary influence 1154 00:58:08,732 --> 00:58:10,317 that these industries have, 1155 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,444 especially on the Democratic Party. 1156 00:58:13,778 --> 00:58:16,489 So, you know, as much as Obama tried to set himself up 1157 00:58:16,573 --> 00:58:18,074 as the Internet President, 1158 00:58:18,158 --> 00:58:20,410 as the person who understood the free culture movement, 1159 00:58:20,660 --> 00:58:25,790 got the openness and the necessity for information to flow freely, 1160 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,086 From the very beginning, his administration was 1161 00:58:30,921 --> 00:58:36,384 totally aligned with the most extreme copyright positions. 1162 00:58:37,802 --> 00:58:42,390 So, they were not gonna show any mercy 1163 00:58:42,766 --> 00:58:44,643 in a case which implicated copyright. 1164 00:58:46,895 --> 00:58:49,481 But in the Edward Snowden context, it's a different kind 1165 00:58:49,564 --> 00:58:51,233 monster that's driving it. 1166 00:58:51,316 --> 00:58:54,986 It's this, you know, national security fight 1167 00:58:56,238 --> 00:58:58,782 of a "War on Terror"-like monster. 1168 00:59:00,659 --> 00:59:04,788 And Obama has a very strong desire 1169 00:59:04,871 --> 00:59:07,540 to appear as tough as he possibly can, 1170 00:59:07,624 --> 00:59:09,834 especially to the military, 1171 00:59:11,586 --> 00:59:16,383 and so here too, we will not show any mercy. 1172 00:59:16,466 --> 00:59:18,468 We will be as tough as we possibly can. 1173 00:59:19,511 --> 00:59:21,721 [Tim Wu] It's very easy to scare the public, 1174 00:59:23,390 --> 00:59:25,433 particularly when it's something like the Internet, 1175 00:59:25,517 --> 00:59:27,185 cyber security, some kind of danger 1176 00:59:27,269 --> 00:59:29,104 that people don't really understand very well. 1177 00:59:30,355 --> 00:59:33,275 And I think a responsible approach 1178 00:59:33,358 --> 00:59:34,359 is not to scare the public, 1179 00:59:34,442 --> 00:59:36,444 but to be honest about the threat. 1180 00:59:36,528 --> 00:59:39,072 Most of what the Internet connects to 1181 00:59:39,155 --> 00:59:41,283 is not what we would call critical infrastructure. 1182 00:59:41,366 --> 00:59:43,159 Let's say my web page or something. 1183 00:59:43,243 --> 00:59:46,413 If a terrorist wants to take over my web page, they're welcome to it. 1184 00:59:46,496 --> 00:59:48,873 I mean, not really, but I'm just saying that, you know, 1185 00:59:48,957 --> 00:59:51,126 it's not gonna cause a danger. 1186 00:59:52,711 --> 00:59:55,422 The Internet's decentralized nature 1187 00:59:55,505 --> 00:59:58,883 has been an incredible buttress against cyber threats, 1188 00:59:59,009 --> 01:00:01,052 and it's one of the reasons you haven't seen 1189 01:00:01,553 --> 01:00:04,139 all kinds of terrible things happen. 1190 01:00:05,890 --> 01:00:08,810 [Peter Ludlow] There are many, many true threats to us in this world, 1191 01:00:08,893 --> 01:00:11,563 from fracking, environmental damage, 1192 01:00:11,646 --> 01:00:13,481 thousands of people dying from 1193 01:00:13,565 --> 01:00:15,483 pollutants, thousands, millions, 1194 01:00:15,692 --> 01:00:18,903 You have over 50,000 people a year 1195 01:00:18,987 --> 01:00:21,448 dying from work related illness. 1196 01:00:21,573 --> 01:00:23,491 All right, if you add in the number of people 1197 01:00:23,575 --> 01:00:25,368 that die in workplace accidents, 1198 01:00:25,452 --> 01:00:29,080 that's what, over 54,000 people a year dying 1199 01:00:29,789 --> 01:00:32,292 because of workplace accidents or illness. 1200 01:00:33,585 --> 01:00:37,672 Now, if you break that down to, like, how many per day 1201 01:00:37,756 --> 01:00:39,132 or how many per hour, 1202 01:00:39,591 --> 01:00:42,052 basically what you're getting is the equivalent 1203 01:00:42,135 --> 01:00:47,182 of a Boston Marathon bombing every half hour of every day 1204 01:00:48,433 --> 01:00:50,101 of every week of every year. 1205 01:00:52,228 --> 01:00:54,230 So here's the optic. 1206 01:00:54,314 --> 01:00:57,567 You've got this situation in the Boston Marathon bombing 1207 01:00:57,650 --> 01:01:00,695 where a number of people died in the explosion, 1208 01:01:01,112 --> 01:01:02,739 and it was a terrible thing. 1209 01:01:04,449 --> 01:01:08,328 And you know, we went in, and we, like, seized houses, 1210 01:01:08,411 --> 01:01:10,872 and we caught these people, et cetera. 1211 01:01:11,539 --> 01:01:14,876 But then meanwhile, 2 days later, 1212 01:01:14,959 --> 01:01:17,462 a fertilizer plant blows up in Texas, 1213 01:01:18,713 --> 01:01:20,757 killing more people. 1214 01:01:21,549 --> 01:01:24,177 And in the beginning, we're like, "Oh my God, what if it's terrorism?" 1215 01:01:24,260 --> 01:01:26,679 And then we find out, "Well, it's probably an accident," 1216 01:01:26,763 --> 01:01:28,306 and then no one cares. 1217 01:01:28,890 --> 01:01:32,936 Well, no one cares, but it doesn't matter if it's, like, 1218 01:01:33,019 --> 01:01:35,897 terrorist did it or corporate malfeasance did it. 1219 01:01:36,147 --> 01:01:38,066 People are still just as dead. 1220 01:01:38,733 --> 01:01:40,318 Or take West Virginia. 1221 01:01:40,402 --> 01:01:42,612 There's this huge leak of toxic chemicals 1222 01:01:43,029 --> 01:01:46,658 and 300,000 people are left without water. 1223 01:01:48,201 --> 01:01:50,370 Poisoned the water of 300,000 people. 1224 01:01:50,453 --> 01:01:52,372 Now, what if terrorists had done that? 1225 01:01:52,622 --> 01:01:54,082 We would be freaking out, 1226 01:01:54,582 --> 01:01:56,876 but because it was a corporation that did it 1227 01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,839 through its malfeasance and ineptitude, no one cares. 1228 01:02:01,756 --> 01:02:03,675 So, what's going on? 1229 01:02:03,758 --> 01:02:06,386 The problem is that we're fearing the wrong things. 1230 01:02:06,469 --> 01:02:08,805 We're not fearing the things that we ought to. 1231 01:02:08,888 --> 01:02:10,432 Or, forget about fear. 1232 01:02:10,515 --> 01:02:12,434 We're just obsessed with the wrong things. 1233 01:02:13,059 --> 01:02:16,479 [Lawrence Lessig] We've seen an incredible rise of crony capitalism 1234 01:02:16,563 --> 01:02:18,356 in The United States government, 1235 01:02:18,481 --> 01:02:21,568 which is corrupting the government and corrupting capitalism. 1236 01:02:21,651 --> 01:02:23,653 It's again this sense that business and government 1237 01:02:23,736 --> 01:02:28,241 needs to be in bed together and benefit each other. 1238 01:02:28,324 --> 01:02:31,369 Business benefits government, not in the old criminal way, 1239 01:02:31,494 --> 01:02:32,787 they don't bribe people, 1240 01:02:32,871 --> 01:02:34,831 but by providing the necessary thing 1241 01:02:34,914 --> 01:02:37,792 that congressmen need to survive, money. 1242 01:02:38,543 --> 01:02:41,963 And in that relationship, we once again are having this 1243 01:02:42,380 --> 01:02:45,467 stagnated economic development 1244 01:02:45,592 --> 01:02:48,386 because economies that are in bed with governments 1245 01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:50,722 are economies that are about protecting themselves, 1246 01:02:50,805 --> 01:02:52,599 not about competition. 1247 01:02:52,724 --> 01:02:55,643 So, we need a similar progressive movement. 1248 01:02:55,810 --> 01:02:57,604 In fact, I believe there's such a thing 1249 01:02:57,687 --> 01:02:59,856 as successful social movements 1250 01:02:59,939 --> 01:03:01,816 to save something that people care about. 1251 01:03:01,900 --> 01:03:03,485 I'll give you a couple examples. 1252 01:03:03,568 --> 01:03:05,111 Downtown New York. 1253 01:03:05,195 --> 01:03:06,779 There was a plan in the '50's 1254 01:03:06,863 --> 01:03:09,616 to make all of Downtown New York freeways. 1255 01:03:09,699 --> 01:03:12,494 They were like, "West Village, SoHo, 1256 01:03:12,577 --> 01:03:15,079 "you know, old buildings, who needs 'em? 1257 01:03:15,830 --> 01:03:18,500 What we need to do is just get new freeways." 1258 01:03:18,583 --> 01:03:21,169 I mean, these plans are crazy, Robert Moses's plans. 1259 01:03:21,753 --> 01:03:24,506 But they say if you had a plan now to try to plow over 1260 01:03:24,631 --> 01:03:27,342 the West Village or SoHo, it would not happen. 1261 01:03:27,592 --> 01:03:29,385 Similarly, I think with the National Parks, 1262 01:03:29,469 --> 01:03:31,387 we've had a successful movement. 1263 01:03:31,471 --> 01:03:33,181 There was a time in this country 1264 01:03:33,264 --> 01:03:36,184 where people just didn't think about this is worth saving. 1265 01:03:36,434 --> 01:03:39,896 When they thought about nature, they thought, "Well, how do we make money? 1266 01:03:39,979 --> 01:03:41,773 And if we don't make money, who cares?" 1267 01:03:41,856 --> 01:03:43,441 This conception that the environment 1268 01:03:43,525 --> 01:03:45,568 was something you would save, just... 1269 01:03:46,110 --> 01:03:47,487 If you'd said that, 1270 01:03:47,654 --> 01:03:49,239 people wouldn't know what you're talking about. 1271 01:03:49,322 --> 01:03:50,698 It didn't make any sense. 1272 01:03:50,782 --> 01:03:52,492 It really took a change in consciousness 1273 01:03:52,575 --> 01:03:55,870 to have an awareness of the importance of the environment. 1274 01:03:55,954 --> 01:03:57,622 That's the same way people felt when you 1275 01:03:57,705 --> 01:03:59,916 talked about net neutrality for the first time. 1276 01:03:59,999 --> 01:04:02,877 It's just like, "Well, what do you mean the structure of the network? 1277 01:04:02,961 --> 01:04:06,047 I don't get it." You know, it's just wires and so forth." 1278 01:04:06,130 --> 01:04:09,676 And so I think today, we're going through a same kind of consciousness shift 1279 01:04:10,510 --> 01:04:15,139 with respect to how information is controlled in society 1280 01:04:15,848 --> 01:04:17,892 that we underwent with the environmental movement 1281 01:04:17,976 --> 01:04:19,477 in the 20th century. 1282 01:04:21,396 --> 01:04:22,564 Through the '60's 1283 01:04:22,647 --> 01:04:26,025 there were all these really great shifts in consciousness. 1284 01:04:26,109 --> 01:04:28,695 We had a shift in consciousness about race. 1285 01:04:28,778 --> 01:04:31,614 We had a shift in consciousness about women's rights. 1286 01:04:32,115 --> 01:04:33,908 I mean, dramatic, very dramatic. 1287 01:04:33,992 --> 01:04:36,494 We had a shift in consciousness about the environment. 1288 01:04:37,745 --> 01:04:42,458 These things come in waves of about every 50 years or so. 1289 01:04:42,792 --> 01:04:45,545 The last one we had was in the '60s, 1290 01:04:45,712 --> 01:04:49,132 sort of peaking around '67, '68, 1291 01:04:49,507 --> 01:04:51,134 where basically the whole world 1292 01:04:51,301 --> 01:04:54,679 kind of had a raising of consciousness as it were. 1293 01:04:55,513 --> 01:04:58,641 And you get these, in sort of like 1917. 1294 01:04:58,725 --> 01:05:01,603 If you go back, it about a cycle of every 50 years. 1295 01:05:02,353 --> 01:05:05,607 So, 1848, 1776. 1296 01:05:06,190 --> 01:05:09,819 And I suspect that we're just 1297 01:05:09,902 --> 01:05:11,988 in the beginning stages of this. 1298 01:05:12,905 --> 01:05:17,619 [applauding] 1299 01:05:18,369 --> 01:05:20,204 This is my friend, Aaron Swartz. 1300 01:05:20,496 --> 01:05:22,582 Aaron came to me with a question. 1301 01:05:22,665 --> 01:05:26,044 Then he said, "So, how are you ever... 1302 01:05:27,170 --> 01:05:29,339 gonna solve the problems you're talking about?" 1303 01:05:29,422 --> 01:05:30,965 "Copyright policy, Internet policy. 1304 01:05:31,049 --> 01:05:33,051 "How are you gonna ever address those problems 1305 01:05:34,093 --> 01:05:36,804 "So long as there's this fundamental corruption 1306 01:05:37,555 --> 01:05:38,890 in the way our government works?" 1307 01:05:39,182 --> 01:05:41,726 He was saying to me, "You have got to get a clue, 1308 01:05:41,809 --> 01:05:43,311 "because there is a flaw 1309 01:05:43,394 --> 01:05:46,814 at the core of the operating system of this democracy." 1310 01:05:49,108 --> 01:05:52,445 I loved that boy like I love my son, 1311 01:05:56,949 --> 01:05:58,368 but we failed him. 1312 01:06:00,787 --> 01:06:04,666 And I love my country, and I'm not gonna fail that. 1313 01:06:05,333 --> 01:06:06,668 I'm not gonna fail that. 1314 01:06:06,751 --> 01:06:08,378 That sense of hope, 1315 01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,714 we're gonna hold and we're gonna fight for, 1316 01:06:11,798 --> 01:06:14,676 however impossible this battle looks. 1317 01:06:15,968 --> 01:06:16,803 So... 1318 01:06:19,639 --> 01:06:21,516 may the ideals of one boy 1319 01:06:23,142 --> 01:06:27,605 unite one nation behind one critical idea 1320 01:06:27,689 --> 01:06:29,732 that we are one people, 1321 01:06:29,899 --> 01:06:33,653 we are the people who were promised a government, 1322 01:06:33,736 --> 01:06:36,239 a government that was promised to be dependent 1323 01:06:36,322 --> 01:06:38,116 upon the people alone. 1324 01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:39,575 The people. 1325 01:06:39,701 --> 01:06:43,955 May you join this movement, not because this is your field, 1326 01:06:45,498 --> 01:06:49,127 but because if you are, you are a citizen. 1327 01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:52,547 Aaron asked me that. 1328 01:06:54,841 --> 01:06:56,175 Now I've asked you. 1329 01:07:08,813 --> 01:07:10,815 [Charlie Chaplin] We all want to help one another. 1330 01:07:10,898 --> 01:07:12,275 Human beings are like that. 1331 01:07:12,358 --> 01:07:15,403 We want to live by each other's happiness, not by each other's misery. 1332 01:07:15,778 --> 01:07:17,572 In this world, there is room for everyone 1333 01:07:17,655 --> 01:07:20,533 and the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. 1334 01:07:20,742 --> 01:07:22,994 The way of life can be free and beautiful, 1335 01:07:23,786 --> 01:07:25,288 but we have lost the way. 1336 01:07:25,955 --> 01:07:27,957 Greed has poisoned men's souls, 1337 01:07:28,750 --> 01:07:30,835 has barricaded the world with hate, 1338 01:07:30,918 --> 01:07:32,920 has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. 1339 01:07:33,796 --> 01:07:36,799 We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. 1340 01:07:36,883 --> 01:07:39,677 Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. 1341 01:07:39,761 --> 01:07:41,637 Our knowledge has made us cynical. 1342 01:07:41,721 --> 01:07:43,598 Our cleverness, hard and unkind. 1343 01:07:43,848 --> 01:07:46,100 We think too much and feel too little. 1344 01:07:46,601 --> 01:07:48,936 More than machinery, we need humanity. 1345 01:07:49,228 --> 01:07:52,064 More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. 1346 01:07:52,607 --> 01:07:53,900 Without these qualities, 1347 01:07:53,983 --> 01:07:56,611 life will be violent and all will be lost. 1348 01:07:56,736 --> 01:07:58,112 The airplane and the radio 1349 01:07:58,196 --> 01:07:59,572 have brought us closer together. 1350 01:07:59,655 --> 01:08:00,990 The very nature of these inventions 1351 01:08:01,073 --> 01:08:02,617 cries out for the goodness in men, 1352 01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:04,494 cries out for universal brotherhood, 1353 01:08:04,577 --> 01:08:06,037 for the unity of us all. 1354 01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:08,539 Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world, 1355 01:08:09,123 --> 01:08:11,501 millions of despairing men, women, and children, 1356 01:08:11,793 --> 01:08:14,170 victims of a system that makes men torture 1357 01:08:14,337 --> 01:08:16,088 and imprison innocent people. 1358 01:08:17,006 --> 01:08:19,967 To those who can hear me, I say, do not despair. 1359 01:08:20,218 --> 01:08:23,304 The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed, 1360 01:08:23,429 --> 01:08:26,641 the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. 1361 01:08:27,099 --> 01:08:30,102 The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, 1362 01:08:30,186 --> 01:08:31,896 and the power they took from the people 1363 01:08:31,979 --> 01:08:33,856 will return to the people. 1364 01:08:33,981 --> 01:08:37,193 And so long as men die, liberty will never perish. 1365 01:08:37,401 --> 01:08:41,113 Soldiers, don't give yourselves to brutes, men who despise you, 1366 01:08:41,197 --> 01:08:43,699 enslave you, who regiment your lives, 1367 01:08:43,783 --> 01:08:45,868 tell you what to do, what to think, or what to feel, 1368 01:08:45,952 --> 01:08:48,120 who drill you, diet you, treat you like cattle, 1369 01:08:48,204 --> 01:08:49,956 use you as cannon fodder. 1370 01:08:50,039 --> 01:08:52,625 Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men, 1371 01:08:52,708 --> 01:08:55,878 machine men with machine minds and machine hearts. 1372 01:08:55,962 --> 01:08:58,673 You are not machines. You are not cattle. 1373 01:08:58,756 --> 01:09:00,049 You are men! 1374 01:09:00,132 --> 01:09:01,759 You have the love of humanity in your hearts. 1375 01:09:01,843 --> 01:09:03,177 You don't hate. 1376 01:09:03,261 --> 01:09:06,264 Only the unloved hate, the unloved and the unnatural. 1377 01:09:06,347 --> 01:09:08,558 Soldiers, don't fight for slavery, 1378 01:09:08,641 --> 01:09:09,976 fight for liberty. 1379 01:09:10,059 --> 01:09:11,978 In the 17th chapter of St. Luke it is written, 1380 01:09:12,061 --> 01:09:13,437 "The Kingdom of God is within man," 1381 01:09:13,521 --> 01:09:15,189 not one man nor a group of men, 1382 01:09:15,273 --> 01:09:17,024 but in all men, in you. 1383 01:09:17,108 --> 01:09:20,236 You, the people have the power, the power to create machines, 1384 01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:21,737 the power to create happiness. 1385 01:09:21,821 --> 01:09:23,614 You, the people, have the power 1386 01:09:23,698 --> 01:09:25,157 to make this life free and beautiful. 1387 01:09:25,241 --> 01:09:28,202 Then, in the name of democracy, let us use that power. 1388 01:09:28,411 --> 01:09:32,206 Let us fight for a new world, a decent world 1389 01:09:32,290 --> 01:09:34,083 that will give men a chance to work, 1390 01:09:34,166 --> 01:09:36,878 that will give youth the future, and old age a security. 1391 01:09:36,961 --> 01:09:39,380 By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, 1392 01:09:39,463 --> 01:09:40,882 but they lie. 1393 01:09:40,965 --> 01:09:42,425 They do not fulfill their promise. 1394 01:09:42,508 --> 01:09:43,718 They never will. 1395 01:09:43,801 --> 01:09:46,387 Now, let us fight to fulfill that promise. 1396 01:09:46,804 --> 01:09:49,056 Let us fight to free the world, 1397 01:09:49,140 --> 01:09:50,808 to do away with national barriers, 1398 01:09:50,892 --> 01:09:54,395 to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. 1399 01:09:54,478 --> 01:09:56,439 Let us fight for a world of reason, 1400 01:09:56,522 --> 01:09:58,941 A world where science and progress 1401 01:09:59,025 --> 01:10:01,068 will lead to all men's happiness. 1402 01:10:01,152 --> 01:10:05,489 Soldiers, in the name of democracy, let us all unite! 1403 01:10:11,412 --> 01:10:14,165 [Edward Snowden] America is a fundamentally good country. 1404 01:10:14,248 --> 01:10:16,125 We have good people with good values 1405 01:10:16,208 --> 01:10:18,044 who want to do the right thing. 1406 01:10:18,127 --> 01:10:20,880 But the structures of power that exist 1407 01:10:20,963 --> 01:10:22,757 are working to their own ends. 1408 01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:24,300 The greatest fear that I have 1409 01:10:24,383 --> 01:10:27,011 regarding the outcome 1410 01:10:28,596 --> 01:10:30,973 for America of these disclosures 1411 01:10:31,057 --> 01:10:32,391 is that nothing will change. 1412 01:10:32,475 --> 01:10:36,354 They won't be willing to take the risks necessary 1413 01:10:36,437 --> 01:10:40,232 to stand up and fight to change things. 1414 01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:42,944 [Tim Wu] I'm not a fatalist. 1415 01:10:43,027 --> 01:10:45,988 I think that the future's actually in our hands. 1416 01:10:46,072 --> 01:10:47,782 You know, the people of The United States can say, 1417 01:10:47,865 --> 01:10:51,035 "We like information to be a little more disaggregated, 1418 01:10:51,118 --> 01:10:52,620 a little more random, 1419 01:10:53,287 --> 01:10:55,873 a little more possible to get anything you want," 1420 01:10:55,957 --> 01:10:57,750 as opposed to what's being fed to you. 1421 01:10:57,833 --> 01:11:00,378 And if we like that system, we can defend it. 1422 01:11:01,045 --> 01:11:02,964 [Lawrence Lessig] The fight has to be to protect 1423 01:11:03,047 --> 01:11:04,924 the architecture of the Internet, 1424 01:11:05,216 --> 01:11:09,387 to embed and secure the values that we care about. 1425 01:11:10,846 --> 01:11:13,432 [Peter Ludlow] Well, we have a lot of strategies for doing that. 1426 01:11:13,516 --> 01:11:16,143 I write little articles in the "New York Times." 1427 01:11:16,227 --> 01:11:18,229 You make documentaries. 1428 01:11:18,396 --> 01:11:20,189 Other people make documentaries. 1429 01:11:20,272 --> 01:11:21,607 We talk to our friends. 1430 01:11:21,691 --> 01:11:23,985 We're gonna go to a bar and talk about it later. 1431 01:11:24,068 --> 01:11:25,611 We're gonna call our parents, 1432 01:11:25,695 --> 01:11:28,322 we're gonna tell them about it, right? 1433 01:11:28,614 --> 01:11:30,491 And we're gonna need leaders. 1434 01:11:30,574 --> 01:11:32,785 We're gonna need another Aaron Swartz. 1435 01:11:33,077 --> 01:11:35,037 We're gonna need lots of Aaron Swartz's 1436 01:11:35,121 --> 01:11:37,081 to get this to work, right? 1437 01:11:37,289 --> 01:11:39,291 But then here's the final point, 1438 01:11:40,251 --> 01:11:43,462 if it's really true that you're not doing anything 1439 01:11:43,629 --> 01:11:46,340 to scare the power structure, 1440 01:11:46,674 --> 01:11:48,843 if it's really true that you're not doing anything 1441 01:11:48,926 --> 01:11:52,054 to make the power structure nervous, 1442 01:11:52,138 --> 01:11:53,848 and so why should you care, 1443 01:11:54,056 --> 01:11:56,475 why the fuck aren't you doing something? 1444 01:11:57,309 --> 01:11:59,895 Why are you living like a slave, 1445 01:11:59,979 --> 01:12:02,815 letting these people control the wealth, 1446 01:12:02,898 --> 01:12:06,277 consolidate wealth, poison your water, 1447 01:12:06,527 --> 01:12:09,947 poison your air, treat you like shit, 1448 01:12:10,322 --> 01:12:12,533 treat your parents like shit? 1449 01:12:12,616 --> 01:12:14,577 Why are you letting that happen? 1450 01:12:16,162 --> 01:12:18,456 So if you tell me you have nothing to worry about, 1451 01:12:18,539 --> 01:12:21,083 then I wanna say shame on you, 1452 01:12:21,167 --> 01:12:22,960 'cause you should have something to worry about. 1453 01:12:23,044 --> 01:12:24,211 You should be out there doing 1454 01:12:24,295 --> 01:12:26,130 something to change this system. 1455 01:12:26,380 --> 01:12:31,594 [Heroic instrumental music playing] 1456 01:13:19,975 --> 01:13:25,773 [heroic instrumental continues] 112076

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