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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:04,533 --> 00:00:06,467 and may contain mature subject matter. 2 00:00:06,467 --> 00:00:09,700 Viewer discretion is advised. 3 00:00:21,700 --> 00:00:24,233 a former CIA operative, matuBen Smith, mas,"r. 4 00:00:24,367 --> 00:00:25,900 investigates what really crashed 5 00:00:26,033 --> 00:00:29,467 near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947. 6 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,467 - I'm not sure I buy that whole balloon theory. 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:32,934 - Really? - Yeah. 8 00:00:33,066 --> 00:00:34,800 Fishburne: The focus: a mysterious journal 9 00:00:34,934 --> 00:00:37,266 found among the possessions of Jesse Marcel, 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,200 the first official to arrive at the scene. 11 00:00:40,333 --> 00:00:42,166 - It was not anything from this Earth. 12 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:44,800 That, I'm quite sure of. 13 00:00:44,934 --> 00:00:46,567 Fishburne: A top cryptologist believes 14 00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:48,633 it may contain coded messages... 15 00:00:48,767 --> 00:00:49,834 - To a cryptographer, 16 00:00:49,967 --> 00:00:52,100 this indicates a certain kind of cipher. 17 00:00:52,233 --> 00:00:55,834 Fishburne: Perhaps details on what Marcel really saw. 18 00:00:55,967 --> 00:00:57,867 - He saw the spaceship. 19 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,834 - I'm laurence Fishburne and tonight, 20 00:00:59,967 --> 00:01:04,066 the hunt for the mysterious journal's author continues. 21 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,033 Was it a fellow officer in Jesse Marcels tight knit group 22 00:01:07,166 --> 00:01:08,567 who knew exactly what he knew? 23 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:10,867 Ben Smith is hot on the trail. 24 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,133 Was one of these men the author of the journal? 25 00:01:14,266 --> 00:01:16,734 Was it written by a U.S. Army officer 26 00:01:16,867 --> 00:01:19,367 with inside information on Roswell? 27 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:21,567 - There are some words and letter combinations 28 00:01:21,700 --> 00:01:23,100 I do see in agreement. 29 00:01:23,233 --> 00:01:26,066 - This man is at the nexus of all the secrets. 30 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:27,533 Fishburne: And what did Jesse Marcel 31 00:01:27,667 --> 00:01:29,033 tell his own family 32 00:01:29,166 --> 00:01:31,467 years before he ever went public? 33 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,467 - He told us that they had told him to change the story. 34 00:01:40,500 --> 00:01:42,567 Fishburne: Did an extraterrestrial spacecraft 35 00:01:42,700 --> 00:01:45,367 crash near Roswell? 36 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:48,967 The conclusion to our investigation begins now. 37 00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:51,967 [dramatic music] 38 00:01:52,100 --> 00:01:59,066 ♪ ♪ 39 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:10,934 ♪ ♪ 40 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,734 Former CIA investigator Ben Smith has traveled 41 00:02:15,867 --> 00:02:19,133 to Louisiana's Gulf Coast to visit Houma, 42 00:02:19,266 --> 00:02:20,967 the hometown of Jesse Marcel 43 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:24,700 where he spent the last 36 years of his life. 44 00:02:24,834 --> 00:02:26,767 ♪ ♪ 45 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:28,266 At ease among his own people 46 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,300 in this quiet bayou community, 47 00:02:30,433 --> 00:02:32,967 Smith believes Marcel may have divulged details 48 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:36,834 about the UFO crash to family and friends. 49 00:02:36,967 --> 00:02:39,533 ♪ ♪ 50 00:02:39,667 --> 00:02:41,100 - There are Mr. and Mrs. Marcel. 51 00:02:41,233 --> 00:02:42,533 - They must have liked you. 52 00:02:42,667 --> 00:02:43,967 They have smiles on their faces. 53 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:45,533 - I was in their book. 54 00:02:45,667 --> 00:02:48,767 She says, "You could sell refrigerators to Eskimos," 55 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:52,834 because I was so persuasive in making him talk about things. 56 00:02:52,967 --> 00:02:55,166 And she could see that I was getting things. 57 00:02:55,300 --> 00:02:56,700 And that's him and I together. 58 00:02:56,834 --> 00:02:59,834 I have my Nicholls State University T-shirt on, and-- 59 00:02:59,967 --> 00:03:02,734 Oh, my gosh. Such a long time ago. 60 00:03:02,867 --> 00:03:05,133 ♪ ♪ 61 00:03:05,266 --> 00:03:08,233 Fishburne: Linda Corley met Marcel in 1981 62 00:03:08,367 --> 00:03:10,033 when she taped an interview with him 63 00:03:10,166 --> 00:03:12,200 for her undergraduate psychology course 64 00:03:12,333 --> 00:03:14,567 at Nicholls State University. 65 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:18,166 Marcel was retired and living with his wife, Vio. 66 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:19,700 ♪ ♪ 67 00:03:19,834 --> 00:03:23,367 In 2007, she turned her interview with Jesse 68 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:27,400 into a book entitled "For The Sake Of My Country." 69 00:03:27,533 --> 00:03:29,567 ♪ ♪ 70 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:31,667 - I had a little cassette-tape recorder, 71 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,567 and I asked him if it was all right. 72 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:35,567 He said, "Sure." 73 00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:37,400 Okay. [clears throat] 74 00:03:37,533 --> 00:03:39,934 Please don't break. Please don't break. 75 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,200 - I kept asking all through the interview, 76 00:04:13,333 --> 00:04:14,633 "Can't you tell me something that's not in the book?" 77 00:04:14,767 --> 00:04:15,900 - [laughs] 78 00:04:16,033 --> 00:04:17,467 ♪ ♪ 79 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,033 Fishburne: Linda is referring to the first book 80 00:04:19,166 --> 00:04:22,266 to allege a government cover-up at Roswell, 81 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,433 called "The Roswell Incident." 82 00:04:24,567 --> 00:04:25,900 It was written by Charles Berlitz 83 00:04:26,033 --> 00:04:28,133 and William Moore in 1980. 84 00:04:28,266 --> 00:04:31,734 It relied heavily on the testimony of Jesse Marcel. 85 00:04:31,867 --> 00:04:33,000 - I asked him that a million times. 86 00:04:33,133 --> 00:04:34,433 "Can't you tell me something that's not in the book?" 87 00:04:34,567 --> 00:04:36,233 - Yeah. - And in the end, he did. 88 00:04:36,367 --> 00:04:37,500 ♪ ♪ 89 00:04:37,633 --> 00:04:39,100 Fishburne: What Marcel told Linda 90 00:04:39,233 --> 00:04:40,800 was that his son, Jesse Jr. 91 00:04:40,934 --> 00:04:45,233 had described the debris he'd handled inaccurately. 92 00:04:45,367 --> 00:04:48,633 Jesse Jr., who was 11 at the time, 93 00:04:48,767 --> 00:04:51,300 claimed he'd picked up small support struts, 94 00:04:51,433 --> 00:04:53,300 which he called I-beams. 95 00:04:53,433 --> 00:04:55,834 - The most unusual part of the debris that I saw 96 00:04:55,967 --> 00:04:57,900 was the I-beam fragments, 97 00:04:58,033 --> 00:05:00,166 or what I recall as being I-beam, 98 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:03,767 because they were very light and very strong, 99 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:05,266 and they had some writing 100 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,000 along the inside surface of this, 101 00:05:07,133 --> 00:05:08,934 and that was the thing that really set this apart 102 00:05:09,066 --> 00:05:10,633 from anything I'd ever seen before. 103 00:05:10,767 --> 00:05:12,400 ♪ ♪ 104 00:05:12,533 --> 00:05:15,967 - He was talking about the symbols 105 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:18,300 that he saw on the debris, 106 00:05:18,433 --> 00:05:20,400 and Mrs. Marcel said, 107 00:05:20,533 --> 00:05:23,367 "I think I have Jesse Jr.'s drawing of that," 108 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:27,233 and he said, "Well, Jesse got all that wrong anyway." 109 00:05:27,367 --> 00:05:29,133 - Huh. - I had a composition book, 110 00:05:29,266 --> 00:05:31,333 and I'm like, "Well, here. Why don't you 111 00:05:31,467 --> 00:05:32,967 draw me something?" 112 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:35,133 The clip I want you to hear 113 00:05:35,266 --> 00:05:39,000 is of what he says as he's drawing. 114 00:05:39,133 --> 00:05:40,734 [tape hissing] 115 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:04,200 - He didn't seem to have doubt 116 00:06:04,333 --> 00:06:05,900 as to his memory of that. - Right. 117 00:06:06,033 --> 00:06:07,567 - That's what he draw. That's the original. 118 00:06:07,700 --> 00:06:08,700 - Huh. - I said, 119 00:06:08,834 --> 00:06:11,700 "Now, will you sign it?" And he said, "Yeah." 120 00:06:11,834 --> 00:06:14,767 I can't believe I had the wherewithal to even say that, 121 00:06:14,900 --> 00:06:17,266 and then he signed it, and he drew the beam, 122 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:18,600 which you can see is not an I-beam. 123 00:06:18,734 --> 00:06:20,133 - Yeah. It's not an I-beam. - Yeah. 124 00:06:20,266 --> 00:06:21,900 He told me that they were pink and purple, 125 00:06:22,033 --> 00:06:23,700 and so I wrote that, that's my handwriting. 126 00:06:23,834 --> 00:06:25,300 - Yeah. 127 00:06:25,433 --> 00:06:27,600 - So these are some of my beginning sketches 128 00:06:27,734 --> 00:06:30,433 from what he told me. 129 00:06:30,567 --> 00:06:32,367 - Yeah. That's something I could never figure out. 130 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:35,266 Are we talking about wood, or are we talking about metal? 131 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:36,934 - He called it wood. 132 00:06:37,066 --> 00:06:39,200 He was specific about that, but he said it wouldn't burn. 133 00:06:39,333 --> 00:06:40,700 - How did he know it didn't burn? 134 00:06:40,834 --> 00:06:42,767 - He tried to burn it with a cigarette lighter. 135 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:45,333 He said, "It felt like wood. It looked like wood, 136 00:06:45,467 --> 00:06:47,533 "but it wouldn't burn, so it can't be wood. 137 00:06:47,667 --> 00:06:49,533 "It has to be something I've never seen before 138 00:06:49,667 --> 00:06:51,233 on this Earth," that kind of thing. 139 00:06:51,367 --> 00:06:52,767 - Uh-huh. Yeah. Hmm. 140 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:57,767 ♪ ♪ 141 00:06:57,900 --> 00:07:01,100 - I asked him, "Why didn't you save some of it?" 142 00:07:01,233 --> 00:07:02,333 - Mm-hmm. - "Why didn't you do that?" 143 00:07:02,467 --> 00:07:04,700 I would've saved a piece of it. - Right. 144 00:07:29,066 --> 00:07:32,233 - His choice of words always stuck in my mind. 145 00:07:32,367 --> 00:07:35,100 "I sat on this premium for 32 years. 146 00:07:35,233 --> 00:07:39,100 I don't want any publicity. All I want is peace." 147 00:07:39,233 --> 00:07:41,133 He said that more than once. 148 00:07:41,266 --> 00:07:44,133 "I just want peace." Why don't you have peace? 149 00:07:44,266 --> 00:07:46,000 He could've sat on it for another 32 years? 150 00:07:46,133 --> 00:07:47,800 Why did he talk? Had to have been bothering him. 151 00:07:47,934 --> 00:07:49,967 Had to have been something he wanted to get off his chest. 152 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:51,333 - Yeah. That's true. 153 00:07:51,467 --> 00:07:54,166 - I have three tapes that last about four hours, 154 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:55,333 and during that time, 155 00:07:55,467 --> 00:07:56,934 we had bonded so close together. 156 00:07:57,066 --> 00:07:58,300 - Hmm. Yeah. 157 00:07:58,433 --> 00:08:01,233 - He says, "You're welcome here anytime." 158 00:08:01,367 --> 00:08:03,333 Fishburne: Linda says that when she went home, 159 00:08:03,467 --> 00:08:06,934 she couldn't stop looking at the symbols Jesse had drawn. 160 00:08:07,066 --> 00:08:09,834 - I had studied writing and codes and scripts 161 00:08:09,967 --> 00:08:12,900 for other things, and I came home that night, 162 00:08:13,033 --> 00:08:16,467 and I looked up some different ancient writings, 163 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,166 and it was exactly what he drew-- 164 00:08:19,300 --> 00:08:22,333 - Mm-hmm. - Exactly what he drew. 165 00:08:22,467 --> 00:08:24,800 Fishburne: Linda says that what Jesse drew resembled 166 00:08:24,934 --> 00:08:28,066 a kind of shorthand called Tironian notes 167 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,200 that were first used in Ancient Rome around 4 BC. 168 00:08:32,333 --> 00:08:33,834 She says the symbols Jesse drew 169 00:08:33,967 --> 00:08:36,166 signify travel and flight. 170 00:08:36,300 --> 00:08:40,166 ♪ ♪ 171 00:08:40,300 --> 00:08:42,166 - I went back the next day. 172 00:08:42,300 --> 00:08:45,033 I was invited in cordially, again. 173 00:08:45,166 --> 00:08:46,533 - Mm-hmm. - And I showed him 174 00:08:46,667 --> 00:08:47,734 some of the writing. 175 00:08:47,867 --> 00:08:49,734 ♪ ♪ 176 00:08:49,867 --> 00:08:53,333 I mean, look. This one here, these slashes here-- 177 00:08:53,467 --> 00:08:55,767 - Mm-hmm. - This is almost exactly 178 00:08:55,900 --> 00:08:59,367 what he drew, and there's-- - And what is Tironian? 179 00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:01,400 - There's a decipher for that. 180 00:09:01,533 --> 00:09:02,967 I went into detail about 181 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:05,734 where this writing could've come from. 182 00:09:05,867 --> 00:09:07,266 - Yeah. I think I saw that, yeah. 183 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,433 - And they got pretty intense about the writing. 184 00:09:11,567 --> 00:09:14,633 I left on good terms. "Come back anytime you want." 185 00:09:14,767 --> 00:09:17,600 - Yeah. - And then the calls. 186 00:09:17,734 --> 00:09:19,300 He said, "Do not use what I gave you. 187 00:09:19,433 --> 00:09:21,166 Everything is a lie." 188 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:23,967 And the next call was, "Don't go to the media with it." 189 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:26,500 He was so irate on the phone. - Okay. Yeah. 190 00:09:26,633 --> 00:09:28,133 - I can still see myself. 191 00:09:28,266 --> 00:09:30,600 "I didn't do any-- I'm not gonna do that. 192 00:09:30,734 --> 00:09:31,834 This is for school," you know? 193 00:09:31,967 --> 00:09:33,133 - Uh-huh. 194 00:09:33,266 --> 00:09:35,533 - "I'm not going to the media with this!" 195 00:09:35,667 --> 00:09:38,834 So I never heard from him again. 196 00:09:38,967 --> 00:09:40,533 I was crushed. 197 00:09:40,667 --> 00:09:45,166 - What do you think caused that change? 198 00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:47,500 - Well, I think the second visit, 199 00:09:47,633 --> 00:09:49,600 what happened and transpired there 200 00:09:49,734 --> 00:09:52,166 is why he called and said don't use it. 201 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:53,567 - Uh-huh. 202 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:56,600 - And the only thing that transpired in that second visit 203 00:09:56,734 --> 00:09:58,500 were photos of the ancient writings. 204 00:09:58,633 --> 00:10:01,333 - The ancient writings, yeah. Huh. 205 00:10:01,467 --> 00:10:02,800 ♪ ♪ 206 00:10:02,934 --> 00:10:06,066 - What if he was told that writing means something 207 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,600 to the government or whatever, and you shouldn't tell. 208 00:10:09,734 --> 00:10:11,133 - Uh-huh. - You know, you shouldn't 209 00:10:11,266 --> 00:10:12,600 have drawn it. - Right. 210 00:10:12,734 --> 00:10:13,934 - You shouldn't have written it, you know? 211 00:10:14,066 --> 00:10:18,667 What if it was something that was alien, 212 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,200 and he's too afraid to let it out? 213 00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:24,033 So, you know, those are what-ifs because I don't know 214 00:10:24,166 --> 00:10:26,133 what else to think about those phone calls. 215 00:10:26,266 --> 00:10:28,433 What else can I think? 216 00:10:28,567 --> 00:10:32,300 - Did he ever mention that he was close to anyone on base, 217 00:10:32,433 --> 00:10:35,734 anyone who was especially important to him? 218 00:10:35,867 --> 00:10:37,800 - He talked about Cavitt quite a bit. 219 00:10:37,934 --> 00:10:41,066 He thought extremely highly of Colonel Blanchard. 220 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,000 Colonel Blanchard had refused to transfer him 221 00:10:45,133 --> 00:10:46,967 three months later 222 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:51,066 and said he was more important and needed there, 223 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,333 but somebody else wanted him out. 224 00:10:53,467 --> 00:10:55,166 - Huh. - And he didn't care 225 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:56,567 for General Ramey. 226 00:10:56,700 --> 00:11:01,100 He said General Ramey knew it wasn't a weather balloon. 227 00:11:01,233 --> 00:11:04,333 - So do you believe Jesse's story? 228 00:11:04,467 --> 00:11:07,734 - Yeah. I believe Jesse believes. 229 00:11:07,867 --> 00:11:10,200 I was always a believer that Jesse believed. 230 00:11:10,333 --> 00:11:12,934 - Mm-hmm. - Nothing stood out as phony. 231 00:11:13,066 --> 00:11:14,533 Nothing stood out as fake. 232 00:11:14,667 --> 00:11:16,700 ♪ ♪ 233 00:11:16,834 --> 00:11:18,266 - Did you ever feel like he had a secret 234 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:19,567 that he wasn't sharing with you? 235 00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:22,233 - Well, he says that "I'm not telling you everything." 236 00:11:22,367 --> 00:11:23,533 - Yeah. - "There's still things 237 00:11:23,667 --> 00:11:25,767 I can't tell you," and I'm like, "Why?" 238 00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:27,433 And he says, "For the sake of my country." 239 00:11:27,567 --> 00:11:29,133 - For the sake of his country. - And that's why I named 240 00:11:29,266 --> 00:11:30,533 the book "For The Sake Of My Country." 241 00:11:30,667 --> 00:11:32,166 Yeah. - Yeah. 242 00:11:45,333 --> 00:11:47,433 ♪ ♪ 243 00:11:47,567 --> 00:11:48,734 Fishburne: Coming up... 244 00:11:48,867 --> 00:11:49,800 - What the [bleep] is that thing? 245 00:11:49,934 --> 00:11:51,367 - Whoa, what is that, man? 246 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:52,834 Fishburne: what the Pentagon didn't want America 247 00:11:52,967 --> 00:11:55,667 to know about UFOs but she revealed. 248 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,033 - The Pentagon had a secret program that started in 2007. 249 00:11:59,166 --> 00:12:01,934 Fishburne: And Ben Smith gets some news he never expected. 250 00:12:02,066 --> 00:12:05,967 - I don't see enough right now to exclude this person 251 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:06,967 as a candidate. 252 00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:08,266 There's potential. 253 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,800 ♪ ♪ 254 00:12:16,767 --> 00:12:19,633 [dramatic music] 255 00:12:19,767 --> 00:12:22,367 ♪ ♪ 256 00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:24,233 Fishburne: Ben Smith has just heard a taped interview 257 00:12:24,367 --> 00:12:25,467 with Jesse Marcel... 258 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,367 Fishburne: In which Marcel says it was his duty 259 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:33,600 to stay quiet about Roswell. 260 00:12:33,734 --> 00:12:35,967 ♪ ♪ 261 00:12:41,734 --> 00:12:44,400 ♪ ♪ 262 00:12:44,533 --> 00:12:46,467 Fishburne: Now Smith has come to New York City 263 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,333 to better understand why Marcel felt extreme pressure 264 00:12:49,467 --> 00:12:52,867 to keep his secret long after he left the military. 265 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,333 ♪ ♪ 266 00:12:55,467 --> 00:12:56,934 - Hi, Ben. - Hi, Leslie. 267 00:12:57,066 --> 00:12:59,000 - Come in. - Thank you. 268 00:12:59,133 --> 00:13:00,400 Fishburne: Leslie Kean, 269 00:13:00,533 --> 00:13:02,166 author of the bestselling book 270 00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:05,800 "UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials 271 00:13:05,934 --> 00:13:07,266 Go on the Record," 272 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,533 says it's risky for members of the military 273 00:13:09,667 --> 00:13:12,433 to speak openly about UFOs. 274 00:13:12,567 --> 00:13:15,667 - For people in the military, there is this taboo, 275 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,600 this stigma around the topic of UFOs. 276 00:13:18,734 --> 00:13:20,633 They're afraid to talk about it, that it might somehow 277 00:13:20,767 --> 00:13:23,433 affect their positions and their careers. 278 00:13:23,567 --> 00:13:25,600 There's the respect they have of their colleagues. 279 00:13:25,734 --> 00:13:27,133 They might-- somebody might think 280 00:13:27,266 --> 00:13:28,834 there's something wrong with them. 281 00:13:28,967 --> 00:13:31,834 Those attitudes are still there, unfortunately. 282 00:13:31,967 --> 00:13:33,600 ♪ ♪ 283 00:13:33,734 --> 00:13:34,934 - It sounds like you're convinced 284 00:13:35,066 --> 00:13:37,133 there's a taboo about UFOs. 285 00:13:37,266 --> 00:13:40,633 - That stigma is a big factor for sort of the individual 286 00:13:40,767 --> 00:13:42,667 out there who has a sighting. 287 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,600 - Mm-hmm. - And it's also a big factor 288 00:13:44,734 --> 00:13:47,467 as to why there isn't more research being done 289 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:48,867 by the scientific community 290 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,266 because there's no money to fund projects 291 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,533 that involve something that's taboo, basically. 292 00:13:55,667 --> 00:13:56,834 - Yeah. 293 00:13:56,967 --> 00:13:58,533 - But I think it's gotten a lot better. 294 00:13:58,667 --> 00:14:03,000 I think the December 17th "New York Times" story--2017-- 295 00:14:03,133 --> 00:14:05,200 really shifted things. 296 00:14:05,333 --> 00:14:09,100 Fishburne: In December 2017, Leslie Kean broke the story 297 00:14:09,233 --> 00:14:11,600 that the Pentagon was running a secret program 298 00:14:11,734 --> 00:14:15,033 to investigate UFOs, although officially, 299 00:14:15,166 --> 00:14:17,467 the military claimed all UFO research 300 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,367 had stopped in the 1960s. 301 00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:24,333 - The Pentagon had a secret program that started in 2007, 302 00:14:24,467 --> 00:14:26,200 but sources have told me 303 00:14:26,333 --> 00:14:30,333 that there were programs before that. 304 00:14:30,467 --> 00:14:33,000 Fishburne: Kean uncovered not only a top-secret program 305 00:14:33,133 --> 00:14:35,567 but actual proof that military pilots 306 00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:39,433 reported sightings of UFOs more than once. 307 00:14:39,567 --> 00:14:40,700 - The online version of the story, 308 00:14:40,834 --> 00:14:42,533 which is the one that most people read, 309 00:14:42,667 --> 00:14:46,166 included two official Department of Defense 310 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:49,633 videos taken of objects-- unidentified objects-- 311 00:14:49,767 --> 00:14:52,467 and they were cleared for public release. 312 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,533 - This is a [bleep] drone, bro. 313 00:14:55,667 --> 00:14:57,967 - There's a whole fleet of them. Look on the SA. 314 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:00,600 - Those videos were spectacular, 315 00:15:00,734 --> 00:15:02,900 and they drew a lot of attention to the article, 316 00:15:03,033 --> 00:15:05,734 and as far as I'm aware, this is the first time 317 00:15:05,867 --> 00:15:10,233 the actual government videos have been released of UFOs. 318 00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:17,600 - Nickel six 110, roger. - Oh! Got it! Woo-hoo! 319 00:15:17,734 --> 00:15:18,800 Fishburne: But Kean says that 320 00:15:18,934 --> 00:15:20,500 before the videos were leaked, 321 00:15:20,633 --> 00:15:22,266 the pilots felt intense pressure 322 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,133 not to reveal what they had witnessed. 323 00:15:25,266 --> 00:15:26,467 - These are patriots. 324 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:27,967 These are people who are responsible 325 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:30,333 for the lives of American citizens, 326 00:15:30,467 --> 00:15:33,734 highly trained, highly credible. 327 00:15:33,867 --> 00:15:35,100 When they see something, 328 00:15:35,233 --> 00:15:36,600 they're not supposed to talk about it. 329 00:15:36,734 --> 00:15:38,767 There's nowhere for them to report it. 330 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,700 It just--for me, it borders on just 331 00:15:41,834 --> 00:15:44,300 a kind of irrationality and disrespect. 332 00:15:44,433 --> 00:15:45,800 They struggle with this, 333 00:15:45,934 --> 00:15:47,500 and they feel that their own government 334 00:15:47,633 --> 00:15:48,767 doesn't take them seriously. 335 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:49,934 That's the problem. 336 00:15:50,066 --> 00:15:52,800 - Look at that thing, dude. 337 00:15:52,934 --> 00:15:54,433 Fishburne: Ben Smith sees similarities 338 00:15:54,567 --> 00:15:56,100 between these events 339 00:15:56,233 --> 00:15:57,767 and what Jesse Marcel's family 340 00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:01,700 says happened to him in 1947. 341 00:16:01,834 --> 00:16:04,900 - Jesse Marcel Sr. told his grandchildren 342 00:16:05,033 --> 00:16:07,700 that, Fort Worth, when it was the second press release 343 00:16:07,834 --> 00:16:11,633 with General Ramey, Jesse was paraded into the room 344 00:16:11,767 --> 00:16:14,100 because he was the first individual on the scene, 345 00:16:14,233 --> 00:16:17,500 and he was in the flying saucer report the day before, 346 00:16:17,633 --> 00:16:19,166 and they put out this debris, 347 00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:20,867 and Jesse told his grandchildren 348 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,000 that that was not the debris that he recovered. 349 00:16:23,133 --> 00:16:25,367 - But he had to pretend it was during the press conference? 350 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:26,700 - He was told to shut his mouth 351 00:16:26,834 --> 00:16:28,166 and to just play along. 352 00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:29,333 That was his claim. 353 00:16:29,467 --> 00:16:30,834 - Back in the day, that was so common 354 00:16:30,967 --> 00:16:34,333 that these high-level military people would, 355 00:16:34,467 --> 00:16:36,633 you know, know a lot but feel they couldn't say it, 356 00:16:36,767 --> 00:16:38,800 and then they'd just go to their graves, and that's it. 357 00:16:38,934 --> 00:16:40,233 - Yeah. 358 00:16:40,367 --> 00:16:42,200 - I have a lot of respect for the Marcels 359 00:16:42,333 --> 00:16:43,967 and the Roswell witnesses, absolutely. 360 00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:46,967 When you see them talking or you hear them, 361 00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:48,934 they are as convincing as anything, 362 00:16:49,066 --> 00:16:52,500 and I have no doubt that they believe 100% 363 00:16:52,633 --> 00:16:53,500 in what they're saying. 364 00:16:53,633 --> 00:16:55,667 They're not lying or anything. 365 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,967 They had an experience. They found something. 366 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:01,633 They believe that it is what they say it is, 367 00:17:01,767 --> 00:17:03,633 and they are extremely convincing. 368 00:17:03,767 --> 00:17:05,300 You absolutely have to take it seriously, 369 00:17:05,433 --> 00:17:06,734 and I just wish 370 00:17:06,867 --> 00:17:10,600 there was more information to prove them right. 371 00:17:10,734 --> 00:17:13,133 ♪ ♪ 372 00:17:13,266 --> 00:17:15,233 Fishburne: That proof could lie hidden in the journal 373 00:17:15,367 --> 00:17:19,934 that Jesse Marcel kept among his most prized possessions. 374 00:17:20,066 --> 00:17:21,934 So far, Smith's investigation has proven 375 00:17:22,066 --> 00:17:23,967 that the journal is authentic, 376 00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:26,400 dates from the time of the Roswell incident, 377 00:17:26,533 --> 00:17:29,500 and that Marcel is not its author. 378 00:17:29,633 --> 00:17:31,800 ♪ ♪ 379 00:17:31,934 --> 00:17:34,767 Smith wants to find out who wrote the journal, 380 00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:36,767 why and what it means. 381 00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:38,700 ♪ ♪ 382 00:17:38,834 --> 00:17:41,300 - Without intuition to find the information, 383 00:17:41,433 --> 00:17:44,433 you're useless in journalism or intelligence, right? 384 00:17:44,567 --> 00:17:45,967 So you gotta follow your gut 'cause that's where 385 00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:46,967 you find the best gold. 386 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:48,100 If it was easy to find, 387 00:17:48,233 --> 00:17:49,266 someone would've found it by now. 388 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:50,633 - Right. 389 00:17:50,767 --> 00:17:52,200 Fishburne: To plot his next steps, 390 00:17:52,333 --> 00:17:54,200 Smith meets with Joe Pappalardo, 391 00:17:54,333 --> 00:17:56,900 a veteran aviation journalist with a deep understanding 392 00:17:57,033 --> 00:18:00,600 of American military history and the Roswell story. 393 00:18:02,934 --> 00:18:08,734 - So Craig, the cryptographer, has some interesting insights 394 00:18:08,867 --> 00:18:10,300 that I did not pick up on, 395 00:18:10,433 --> 00:18:13,400 and right away, actually, he picked up on some things 396 00:18:13,533 --> 00:18:15,600 that could actually indicate code. 397 00:18:15,734 --> 00:18:17,333 Craig. - Oh, hi. 398 00:18:17,467 --> 00:18:18,533 You must be Ben. - That's right. 399 00:18:18,667 --> 00:18:20,266 - Good to meet you. - You, too. 400 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:21,967 Fishburne: When Smith took the journal to Craig Bauer, 401 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:24,033 one of the nation's top code breakers, 402 00:18:24,166 --> 00:18:27,066 Bauer thought it could be written in a home-brew code, 403 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,066 a pattern of letters or words invented by the writer. 404 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,000 - To create something just between friends, 405 00:18:33,133 --> 00:18:37,633 it's not that hard to make it really hard to break. 406 00:18:37,767 --> 00:18:42,467 - This potential home-brew code started just after Roswell. 407 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,767 In August 1947, we get this weird kind of writing, 408 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:48,133 so whatever it is, 409 00:18:48,266 --> 00:18:50,800 it's correlated to that strange date. 410 00:18:50,934 --> 00:18:52,767 Now, we still don't have the author, 411 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:54,467 so we can't quite tell what it is. 412 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:55,967 - I don't know. Zodiac was like that, 413 00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:57,333 and they broke that code, didn't they? 414 00:18:57,467 --> 00:18:58,600 As long as it says something, 415 00:18:58,734 --> 00:19:00,934 you should be able to be break it. 416 00:19:01,066 --> 00:19:03,333 - If someone in the 509th wrote the journal, 417 00:19:03,467 --> 00:19:04,867 and we can identify who, 418 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,066 it might lead us to other documents 419 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,667 that allow us to interpret its meaning, 420 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,700 sort of like a broken locket where you have one half 421 00:19:11,834 --> 00:19:13,000 and I have the other. 422 00:19:13,133 --> 00:19:15,367 We put them together, and it's a treasure map. 423 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:18,333 - So who, in your estimation, would be someone 424 00:19:18,467 --> 00:19:20,266 that we'd be interested in hearing from at the time 425 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,166 who would give him this journal? 426 00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:26,700 - Well, as I understand, the Roswell Army Air Force Base 427 00:19:26,834 --> 00:19:29,767 had almost 8,000 personnel in 1947. 428 00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:31,433 It's a huge base. 429 00:19:31,567 --> 00:19:32,867 But I think it would be helpful 430 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,066 to focus my search on the 509th group 431 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,266 and then his counterintelligence group. 432 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:39,433 - That would be the kind of person 433 00:19:39,567 --> 00:19:40,800 that would have information 434 00:19:40,934 --> 00:19:42,133 that would be worth safeguarding, 435 00:19:42,266 --> 00:19:43,467 and they give it to the point man 436 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,066 for the whole Roswell incident. 437 00:19:46,233 --> 00:19:47,533 ♪ ♪ 438 00:19:47,667 --> 00:19:49,100 Fishburne: As the intelligence officer 439 00:19:49,233 --> 00:19:51,333 in Roswell, Marcel was trusted 440 00:19:51,467 --> 00:19:54,567 with the military's most protected secrets, 441 00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:56,300 and according to his grandson, 442 00:19:56,433 --> 00:19:59,400 he stayed silent about what he saw in 1947 443 00:19:59,533 --> 00:20:01,400 to protect his family. 444 00:20:01,533 --> 00:20:02,867 ♪ ♪ 445 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,867 - When my grandfather started talking about his experience 446 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,667 with the Roswell UFO, 447 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,600 he was careful about what he told us. 448 00:20:09,734 --> 00:20:11,066 He didn't want to tell us something 449 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:12,834 that we could tell somebody that might lead us 450 00:20:12,967 --> 00:20:16,166 into a position where we could've felt threatened. 451 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:17,433 ♪ ♪ 452 00:20:17,567 --> 00:20:18,800 Fishburne: Part of Marcel's job 453 00:20:18,934 --> 00:20:20,600 was to share valuable intelligence 454 00:20:20,734 --> 00:20:22,734 with an inner circle of officers 455 00:20:22,867 --> 00:20:25,100 at the 509th bomber group. 456 00:20:25,233 --> 00:20:27,200 Smith thinks whoever wrote the journal might have been 457 00:20:27,333 --> 00:20:29,900 sharing something valuable with Marcel. 458 00:20:30,033 --> 00:20:31,500 ♪ ♪ 459 00:20:31,633 --> 00:20:34,867 - I'm hoping I can get more handwriting samples 460 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,767 of other people in the 509th group 461 00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:40,100 to see if this might have been passed to him 462 00:20:40,233 --> 00:20:42,433 by somebody else within the bomber group. 463 00:20:42,567 --> 00:20:44,166 - I would suggest if they're in the 509th 464 00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:45,500 and if they were officers, 465 00:20:45,633 --> 00:20:47,533 they may have actually served in World War II. 466 00:20:47,667 --> 00:20:51,000 They handwrote a lot of after-action reports. 467 00:20:51,133 --> 00:20:53,367 If they were officers, there may be handwriting samples 468 00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:57,400 that are in old World War II bombing records and archives, 469 00:20:57,533 --> 00:20:59,333 where they flew in from, the bombing assessments. 470 00:20:59,467 --> 00:21:00,800 There's a lot of information. 471 00:21:00,934 --> 00:21:02,100 You might actually hit a little trove there. 472 00:21:02,233 --> 00:21:03,500 You might not, 473 00:21:03,633 --> 00:21:04,934 but, hey, at least it's a rock to kick over. 474 00:21:05,066 --> 00:21:06,266 - Yeah. That's an interesting point. 475 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:07,433 I hadn't considered that. 476 00:21:07,567 --> 00:21:09,934 - Cracking this part of your mystery 477 00:21:10,066 --> 00:21:11,400 is only one good search away. 478 00:21:11,533 --> 00:21:14,500 If you find out who through a handwriting analysis, 479 00:21:14,633 --> 00:21:15,734 then you could find out 480 00:21:15,867 --> 00:21:17,567 a little bit more of the motive why. 481 00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:21,834 ♪ ♪ 482 00:21:21,967 --> 00:21:23,900 Fishburne: Coming up, Smith uncovers 483 00:21:24,033 --> 00:21:25,967 the circle of officers in the 509th 484 00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:28,467 who could've shared Marcel's secret, 485 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:29,900 but will one of them 486 00:21:30,033 --> 00:21:32,166 match the handwriting in the journal? 487 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:37,900 ♪ ♪ 488 00:21:41,567 --> 00:21:44,433 matic music] 489 00:21:44,567 --> 00:21:50,000 ♪ ♪ 490 00:21:50,133 --> 00:21:52,100 - I'm on my way to meet Jennifer Naso, 491 00:21:52,233 --> 00:21:53,900 the handwriting expert. 492 00:21:54,033 --> 00:21:56,533 I have with me a number of handwriting samples 493 00:21:56,667 --> 00:21:59,867 belonging to the people closest to Jesse Marcel 494 00:22:00,066 --> 00:22:02,166 during the time of the Roswell incident. 495 00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:03,800 ♪ ♪ 496 00:22:03,934 --> 00:22:05,934 Fishburne: Ben Smith has been researching Jesse Marcel's 497 00:22:06,066 --> 00:22:08,266 fellow officers in the 509th. 498 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,700 He's gotten writing samples for six individuals, 499 00:22:10,834 --> 00:22:13,734 an inner circle that must have known details 500 00:22:13,867 --> 00:22:16,600 about what really crashed at Roswell. 501 00:22:16,734 --> 00:22:17,967 ♪ ♪ 502 00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:20,066 - If it didn't belong to Jesse and he kept it 503 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,800 in his most prized possessions, 504 00:22:21,934 --> 00:22:24,266 it had to have belonged to somebody important to him. 505 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,567 ♪ ♪ 506 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:26,934 Fishburne: Now the question is, 507 00:22:27,066 --> 00:22:29,367 does anybody's writing match the journal? 508 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:31,300 ♪ ♪ 509 00:22:31,433 --> 00:22:32,700 - Hey. Come on in. 510 00:22:32,834 --> 00:22:34,767 - I'm back with more work for you. 511 00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:36,200 - Tell me what you have. 512 00:22:36,333 --> 00:22:40,633 - I took the journal to a code breaking expert. 513 00:22:40,767 --> 00:22:42,266 First of all, he took a look at the journal, 514 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,400 and to his eyes, a few things immediately popped up 515 00:22:45,533 --> 00:22:48,900 that suggested there might be some kind of code. 516 00:22:49,033 --> 00:22:50,233 Now, he ran the numbers 517 00:22:50,367 --> 00:22:54,066 and was not able to find any coherent message. 518 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:55,934 - That does not correspond to a letter. 519 00:22:56,066 --> 00:23:00,133 - So his next best guess was that maybe there was 520 00:23:00,266 --> 00:23:05,000 some kind of encryption system that only the author knew of. 521 00:23:05,133 --> 00:23:08,567 So that gets back to the question, well, who wrote it? 522 00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:11,233 - Who is the author? - Who is the author? 523 00:23:11,367 --> 00:23:14,600 So I have brought a number of handwriting samples... 524 00:23:14,734 --> 00:23:17,667 - Oh. - From key individuals 525 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,800 at the Roswell Army Air Force Base. 526 00:23:20,934 --> 00:23:24,667 Let me start with Colonel Blanchard, 527 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,333 who was Jesse Marcel's direct commanding officer 528 00:23:28,467 --> 00:23:32,433 and the head of the 509th bomber group. 529 00:23:32,567 --> 00:23:35,667 Fishburne: In 1947, Colonel William "Butch" Blanchard 530 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,400 was commander of the 509th bomber group 531 00:23:38,533 --> 00:23:40,266 based at Roswell. 532 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,500 A highly decorated World War II hero 533 00:23:42,633 --> 00:23:46,200 who had helped plan the Enola Gay's bombing of Hiroshima, 534 00:23:46,333 --> 00:23:47,600 Blanchard was in charge 535 00:23:47,734 --> 00:23:50,433 of America's only nuclear attack force. 536 00:23:50,567 --> 00:23:52,500 It was a job in which he would certainly know 537 00:23:52,633 --> 00:23:54,367 about any top-secret operation 538 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:56,967 involving his air base. 539 00:23:57,100 --> 00:23:59,166 The officer he might have been closest to 540 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:01,233 was Jesse Marcel. 541 00:24:01,367 --> 00:24:03,000 The Blanchards and the Marcels 542 00:24:03,133 --> 00:24:04,467 were regular bridge partners. 543 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,667 ♪ ♪ 544 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,700 - We have Walter Haut, the press corps officer 545 00:24:11,834 --> 00:24:13,867 who organized the press releases 546 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,900 and wrote the infamous flying-saucer press release. 547 00:24:18,033 --> 00:24:20,166 Fishburne: As the base public information officer, 548 00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:22,834 Lieutenant Walter Haut was ordered by Blanchard 549 00:24:22,967 --> 00:24:24,734 to draft that famous press release 550 00:24:24,867 --> 00:24:28,166 that a flying disc had been recovered. 551 00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:30,667 In his later years, Haut came forward to say 552 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,600 he believed Marcel had been telling the truth 553 00:24:33,734 --> 00:24:35,200 and went so far as to say 554 00:24:35,333 --> 00:24:38,066 that he himself had glimpsed bodies of aliens. 555 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,900 ♪ ♪ 556 00:24:41,033 --> 00:24:44,233 - We have Bob Shirkey. 557 00:24:44,367 --> 00:24:45,700 Fishburne: Lieutenant Robert Shirkey 558 00:24:45,834 --> 00:24:47,700 was assistant group operations officer 559 00:24:47,834 --> 00:24:49,500 for the 509th. 560 00:24:49,633 --> 00:24:51,867 If the debris was extraterrestrial, 561 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,133 Shirkey would've been in charge 562 00:24:53,266 --> 00:24:54,633 of arranging its transport 563 00:24:54,767 --> 00:24:57,133 to the Army's top-secret research facility, 564 00:24:57,266 --> 00:24:59,533 Wright-Patterson. 565 00:24:59,667 --> 00:25:02,433 After retiring from the military, Shirkey later 566 00:25:02,567 --> 00:25:06,567 claimed that Jesse Marcel was telling the truth. 567 00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:08,934 - And over here we have Edwin Easley. 568 00:25:09,066 --> 00:25:11,700 Edwin Easley was the provost marshal 569 00:25:11,834 --> 00:25:14,100 at the 509th bomber group. 570 00:25:14,233 --> 00:25:15,500 Fishburne: Major Edwin Easley 571 00:25:15,633 --> 00:25:17,266 was in charge of base security. 572 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,967 He would've been responsible for safeguarding the debris 573 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:21,400 and controlling which personnel 574 00:25:21,533 --> 00:25:22,900 had access to it. 575 00:25:23,033 --> 00:25:25,567 In this capacity, it's not unreasonable 576 00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,166 to assume he knew what the crates contained. 577 00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:30,200 ♪ ♪ 578 00:25:30,333 --> 00:25:32,500 - He would've been responsible for organizing 579 00:25:32,633 --> 00:25:34,300 the cleanup effort to pull in, 580 00:25:34,433 --> 00:25:36,066 to collect the debris. 581 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,233 We also have Patrick Saunders. 582 00:25:40,367 --> 00:25:44,633 Patrick Saunders was the office administrator 583 00:25:44,767 --> 00:25:46,333 for Colonel Blanchard, 584 00:25:46,467 --> 00:25:49,433 so he would've been involved in all the record keeping 585 00:25:49,567 --> 00:25:51,000 and issuing the orders. 586 00:25:51,133 --> 00:25:53,000 ♪ ♪ 587 00:25:53,133 --> 00:25:54,300 Fishburne: Patrick Saunders 588 00:25:54,433 --> 00:25:56,200 was Colonel Blanchard's top deputy. 589 00:25:56,333 --> 00:25:58,166 He had flown 37 combat missions 590 00:25:58,300 --> 00:25:59,667 in World War II 591 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,467 and had just as many medals as his boss. 592 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,567 As Colonel Blanchard's number two, 593 00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:06,166 he would've been in the room 594 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:08,800 when Jesse Marcel returned from the debris field 595 00:26:08,934 --> 00:26:13,133 and debriefed the colonel. 596 00:26:13,266 --> 00:26:15,734 - If there's anybody at the 509th bomber group 597 00:26:15,867 --> 00:26:18,867 who knows everything, it's this guy, Patrick Saunders. 598 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,333 So if this handwriting matched, 599 00:26:21,467 --> 00:26:23,166 it would mean everything to the journal 600 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:27,967 because here is a man who had access to all kinds of secrets 601 00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:31,800 who may have wanted to confide something in Jesse Marcel. 602 00:26:31,934 --> 00:26:37,300 - Okay, so we'll compare these writings to the journal. 603 00:26:37,433 --> 00:26:39,367 So what I notice right off the bat 604 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:40,934 with the Blanchard signature, 605 00:26:41,066 --> 00:26:43,734 that's all the writing that we have, correct? 606 00:26:43,867 --> 00:26:45,333 - Right. 607 00:26:45,467 --> 00:26:48,800 - Just having the one signature to compare to a extended body 608 00:26:48,934 --> 00:26:53,667 of text writing poses a big limitation to the examination. 609 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,867 From what I see in the Patrick Saunders writing... 610 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,100 - Mm-hmm. - While there's a bit more 611 00:27:00,233 --> 00:27:01,367 than just one signature, 612 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:03,934 it's really just the one sentence, 613 00:27:04,066 --> 00:27:05,734 and so the limitation is still 614 00:27:05,867 --> 00:27:08,800 the lack of quantity of known writing. 615 00:27:08,934 --> 00:27:11,433 - Right. Right. - It's a bit of a blurry copy, 616 00:27:11,567 --> 00:27:14,567 and so it's hard to tell the pen movements, 617 00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:16,934 and some of the fine and subtle features 618 00:27:17,066 --> 00:27:18,567 of the formations of the letters 619 00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:22,066 might be lost in the image quality of that copy. 620 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,200 Looking at the Walter Haut handwriting 621 00:27:24,333 --> 00:27:25,767 and the Bob Shirkey writing, 622 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:30,133 this is a more extended sample of writing, 623 00:27:30,266 --> 00:27:32,400 so there's going to be a lot more information, 624 00:27:32,533 --> 00:27:33,967 almost characteristics 625 00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:36,500 that I'm going to be able to compare to the journal. 626 00:27:36,633 --> 00:27:40,066 - Even if you can provide any, even just the slightest 627 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,200 new piece of information on one or the other, 628 00:27:43,333 --> 00:27:47,700 it could help me eliminate one person from the group 629 00:27:47,834 --> 00:27:49,900 closest to Jesse Marcel. And if I have to, 630 00:27:50,033 --> 00:27:51,800 I may have to expand the search 631 00:27:51,934 --> 00:27:53,200 and move out from there 632 00:27:53,333 --> 00:27:57,000 to identify who could've given him this journal. 633 00:27:57,133 --> 00:27:58,533 Fishburne: Smith will leave the journal, 634 00:27:58,667 --> 00:28:00,700 which was so precious to Jesse Marcel, 635 00:28:00,834 --> 00:28:04,500 in Naso's hands, hoping she can uncover its author. 636 00:28:04,633 --> 00:28:07,934 ♪ ♪ 637 00:28:08,066 --> 00:28:12,133 Coming up, the investigation returns to Marcel's hometown. 638 00:28:12,266 --> 00:28:15,367 What did he tell his family and no one else? 639 00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:17,133 - He said, "There are things 640 00:28:17,266 --> 00:28:20,233 that this world is not ready for." 641 00:28:20,367 --> 00:28:24,467 ♪ ♪ 642 00:28:27,867 --> 00:28:30,734 [dramatic music] 643 00:28:30,867 --> 00:28:37,834 ♪ ♪ 644 00:28:40,834 --> 00:28:42,066 Fishburne: As the search 645 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:43,633 for the journal's author escalates, 646 00:28:43,767 --> 00:28:46,033 Ben Smith returns to Jesse Marcel's hometown 647 00:28:46,166 --> 00:28:48,433 of Houma, Louisiana. 648 00:28:48,567 --> 00:28:50,333 Marcel's granddaughter, Denice, 649 00:28:50,467 --> 00:28:53,567 has convinced the extended Marcel family to divulge 650 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:55,967 some of the strange things Jesse told them. 651 00:28:58,033 --> 00:29:01,433 - So how is everyone related to Jesse Marcel? 652 00:29:01,567 --> 00:29:05,467 - He was my brother-in-law's uncle. 653 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,000 - Okay. - But I always called him 654 00:29:08,133 --> 00:29:11,934 Uncle Jesse. - You know, we're all cousins. 655 00:29:12,066 --> 00:29:13,500 - Yeah. [laughter] 656 00:29:13,633 --> 00:29:17,133 - My grandmother and Jesse were brother and sister. 657 00:29:17,266 --> 00:29:18,600 - Oh, wow. - Mm-hmm. 658 00:29:18,734 --> 00:29:21,667 - Okay, so do you remember speaking to him a lot? 659 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,367 - Yes. - Yeah. 660 00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:27,200 - We were very close. We lived next door to him for 10 years. 661 00:29:27,333 --> 00:29:29,800 I went over there a lot. 662 00:29:29,934 --> 00:29:31,800 Fishburne: Smith wants to know what they know 663 00:29:31,934 --> 00:29:34,600 from the lips of Marcel himself. 664 00:29:34,734 --> 00:29:37,400 Their memories seem clear. 665 00:29:37,533 --> 00:29:38,767 - Wallace, how old were you 666 00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:41,100 when Jesse shared his story with you? 667 00:29:41,233 --> 00:29:43,533 - I was a teenager. - You were a teenager? 668 00:29:43,667 --> 00:29:46,433 - Uh-huh. I want to say that it was in 1957. 669 00:29:46,567 --> 00:29:50,033 - In 1957, just 10 years after Roswell. 670 00:29:50,166 --> 00:29:52,066 - Yeah. - Okay. 671 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,767 - I was 12, 13 years old or something like that. 672 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:56,100 - Yeah. Okay. 673 00:29:56,233 --> 00:29:58,767 - He told me, "Don't believe everything 674 00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:02,700 the government tells you," and he started telling me 675 00:30:02,834 --> 00:30:05,667 the story about the crash in Roswell 676 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:11,433 and that they forced him to lie about it. 677 00:30:11,567 --> 00:30:13,266 Fishburne: This means that two decades 678 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,967 before he told the world 679 00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:17,734 an extraterrestrial spacecraft had crashed, 680 00:30:17,867 --> 00:30:21,467 Marcel told the same story with the same details 681 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,600 to the people he trusted. 682 00:30:23,734 --> 00:30:25,266 - What details did he describe? 683 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,433 Did he mention a UFO crash? Did he-- 684 00:30:28,567 --> 00:30:30,367 - He did tell me a UFO crashed. 685 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:32,000 - Okay. - He was telling me 686 00:30:32,133 --> 00:30:35,066 about what it looked like. 687 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,133 I put two and two together and figured, 688 00:30:37,266 --> 00:30:38,734 I think he's telling me 689 00:30:38,867 --> 00:30:41,333 that we've got people from outer space coming here. 690 00:30:41,467 --> 00:30:43,767 - Okay, and what was your reaction then? 691 00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:45,333 What did you think? 692 00:30:45,467 --> 00:30:47,100 - Looking up at the sky at night. 693 00:30:47,233 --> 00:30:48,600 [laughter] 694 00:30:48,734 --> 00:30:50,100 - Did you believe him? 695 00:30:50,233 --> 00:30:51,700 - Of course I believed him. - Yeah. 696 00:30:51,834 --> 00:30:53,066 - 'Cause I don't think Uncle Jesse 697 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,400 would've lied to anybody. - Right. 698 00:30:55,533 --> 00:30:57,600 - He wasn't that type of man. 699 00:30:57,734 --> 00:31:00,066 - Wallace remembers talking to Jesse. 700 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,567 I don't remember talking to him. 701 00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:04,066 - Okay. - But Jesse told my dad 702 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,166 stories about the Roswell incident. 703 00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:10,000 Fishburne: And those stories went further 704 00:31:10,133 --> 00:31:13,967 than anything Jesse Marcel ever said in public. 705 00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:16,166 - The thing that interested me the most was 706 00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:20,266 that Jesse drew a picture of an alien. 707 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,000 - Jesse drew a picture of an alien? 708 00:31:22,133 --> 00:31:25,000 - Yeah. He hand-drew a picture of an alien. 709 00:31:25,133 --> 00:31:28,166 - Huh. - Yeah. 710 00:31:28,300 --> 00:31:34,033 - My dad lost that picture, but later on in life, he wrote, 711 00:31:34,166 --> 00:31:39,000 "What the picture looks like that Jesse drew for me." 712 00:31:39,133 --> 00:31:43,934 ♪ ♪ 713 00:31:44,066 --> 00:31:45,934 - It looked like the picture that Jesse drew. 714 00:31:46,066 --> 00:31:47,300 - Yeah. 715 00:31:47,433 --> 00:31:49,033 - That's the first time I'm hearing any stories 716 00:31:49,166 --> 00:31:53,300 about Jesse himself drawing or referencing an alien. 717 00:31:53,433 --> 00:31:55,433 - I don't remember my dad ever saying 718 00:31:55,567 --> 00:31:58,667 that Jesse saw an alien. - Okay. 719 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,166 - Maybe somebody told him about this. 720 00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:05,200 - I--so, Wallace, do you think 721 00:32:05,333 --> 00:32:09,333 that extraterrestrials crashed in 1947? 722 00:32:09,467 --> 00:32:10,533 - Yeah. 723 00:32:10,667 --> 00:32:14,066 - Okay. 724 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,000 Did Jesse ever tell you, June, 725 00:32:16,133 --> 00:32:18,266 about his experience at Roswell? 726 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,900 - Yes. - He did? 727 00:32:20,033 --> 00:32:23,333 - He did. I think probably '74 to '76, somewhere in there. 728 00:32:23,467 --> 00:32:24,533 - Okay. 729 00:32:24,667 --> 00:32:27,000 - He started talking to me about it. 730 00:32:27,133 --> 00:32:28,800 - Mm-hmm. - Basically what 731 00:32:28,934 --> 00:32:30,333 they're telling you, too. 732 00:32:30,467 --> 00:32:31,500 He found wreckage. 733 00:32:31,633 --> 00:32:33,900 He said it was not of this world. 734 00:32:34,033 --> 00:32:35,900 - Mm-hmm. - He described the metal, 735 00:32:36,033 --> 00:32:38,233 saying that you could crumble it up in your hand, 736 00:32:38,367 --> 00:32:42,967 but it would automatically go right back like it had memory. 737 00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:44,900 - Mm-hmm. Okay. He used the word memory? 738 00:32:45,033 --> 00:32:46,233 - Mm-hmm. - Okay. 739 00:32:46,367 --> 00:32:49,233 - And my daughter, who was 10 at the time, 740 00:32:49,367 --> 00:32:51,867 approached him and asked him, 741 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,500 "Uncle Jesse, were there any bodies?" 742 00:32:55,633 --> 00:32:57,667 And he looked at her, 743 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,600 and she says his eyes kind of glazed over, and he said, 744 00:33:01,734 --> 00:33:05,900 "There are things that this world is not ready for." 745 00:33:06,033 --> 00:33:07,433 - That's what he told your daughter? 746 00:33:07,567 --> 00:33:09,433 "There are things this world is not ready for." 747 00:33:09,567 --> 00:33:11,266 - Right. - Yeah. 748 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:12,600 Fishburne: In front of family members, 749 00:33:12,734 --> 00:33:14,133 Jesse displayed emotions 750 00:33:14,266 --> 00:33:17,433 he kept hidden from the outside world. 751 00:33:17,567 --> 00:33:21,233 - He seemed angry at times about the government. 752 00:33:21,367 --> 00:33:27,900 He told us that they had told him to change the story 753 00:33:28,033 --> 00:33:29,767 and that it was not UFO wreckage. 754 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:32,266 It was a weather balloon. 755 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,934 I think it bothered him a lot, 756 00:33:35,066 --> 00:33:39,233 you know, that he was told to shut up about it. 757 00:33:39,367 --> 00:33:44,266 It was a very notable event in American history, 758 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,734 and he couldn't talk about it. 759 00:33:45,867 --> 00:33:47,600 - Right. - You know, and it was him 760 00:33:47,734 --> 00:33:50,633 that found it, you know, and then had to lie. 761 00:33:50,767 --> 00:33:51,600 - Right. - You know, 762 00:33:51,734 --> 00:33:54,066 so that tore him up. 763 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,100 - Right. - It really did. 764 00:33:57,233 --> 00:34:01,667 I think he needed to express himself about it, 765 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:06,967 so back in '78, '79, he got sort of emboldened about it 766 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:09,934 and decided he was going to talk. 767 00:34:10,066 --> 00:34:12,900 - Yeah, but you heard all of these stories 768 00:34:13,033 --> 00:34:15,166 before there was any big media... 769 00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:18,100 - Absolutely. - Sensation about the story. 770 00:34:18,233 --> 00:34:19,834 - Absolutely. He was being open 771 00:34:19,967 --> 00:34:22,433 with family about it. 772 00:34:22,567 --> 00:34:25,166 - My family members were aware of that. 773 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:28,667 It really upset him a lot that people thought 774 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,300 that he was making it up, you know? 775 00:34:30,433 --> 00:34:31,667 - Yeah. - He had to kind of deal 776 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,767 with some ridicule, and that kind of-- 777 00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:37,200 - Well, I know it wasn't from our family 778 00:34:37,333 --> 00:34:38,900 that he got that from. - Right. 779 00:34:39,033 --> 00:34:42,367 - Outsiders would ridicule him and call him Crazy Jesse 780 00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:43,867 because -- - Oh, really? 781 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,533 - Because of when they started hearing about Roswell. 782 00:34:48,667 --> 00:34:51,500 - That must be hard for an intelligence officer, 783 00:34:51,633 --> 00:34:55,800 a decorated veteran to be ridiculed 784 00:34:55,934 --> 00:34:58,633 by his neighbors and his community. 785 00:34:58,767 --> 00:34:59,834 - Yeah. - That's-- 786 00:34:59,967 --> 00:35:02,667 - I think that would've been hard for him. 787 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:03,967 - Well, all the reports have been lost. 788 00:35:04,100 --> 00:35:05,800 All of the original files have been lost, 789 00:35:05,934 --> 00:35:10,233 so at this point in time, it really is Jesse's word 790 00:35:10,367 --> 00:35:13,767 against the government's word, right? 791 00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:17,033 One part of my investigation, and it's just a part, 792 00:35:17,166 --> 00:35:22,433 is to see can we find any proof anywhere that this happened? 793 00:35:22,567 --> 00:35:28,700 - Yeah. - June, did Jesse ever hint 794 00:35:28,834 --> 00:35:32,934 that he might have something more, more information, 795 00:35:33,066 --> 00:35:36,200 more details or maybe something hidden in his house? 796 00:35:36,333 --> 00:35:38,967 ♪ ♪ 797 00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:43,767 - What he told me is, he came home to Roswell. 798 00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:46,033 He had some wreckage in his car. 799 00:35:46,166 --> 00:35:47,800 - Mm-hmm. - He pulled it out 800 00:35:47,934 --> 00:35:51,333 and brought it inside and showed his family. 801 00:35:51,467 --> 00:35:53,433 ♪ ♪ 802 00:35:53,567 --> 00:35:58,867 But what other things he might've done, I don't know. 803 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,467 He did not ever tell me that he had anything, you know? 804 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,033 - Okay. 805 00:36:04,166 --> 00:36:08,266 - A piece of the wreckage or anything like that, no. 806 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,200 ♪ ♪ 807 00:36:11,333 --> 00:36:14,266 Fishburne: Coming up, did Jesse Marcel keep evidence 808 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,166 of what crashed all along... - Jesse said he had proof? 809 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:20,533 - I said, "Oh, I'd love to see it." 810 00:36:20,667 --> 00:36:24,100 Fishburne: Hidden in his house in Houma? 811 00:36:24,233 --> 00:36:27,300 ♪ ♪ 812 00:36:30,767 --> 00:36:33,600 [dramatic mus] 813 00:36:33,734 --> 00:36:38,433 ♪ ♪ 814 00:36:38,567 --> 00:36:40,266 Fishburne: After meeting with the Marcel family 815 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,100 in Jesse's hometown of Houma, 816 00:36:42,233 --> 00:36:44,600 former CIA investigator Ben Smith 817 00:36:44,734 --> 00:36:46,867 and Jesse's granddaughter, Denice, 818 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,367 get the opportunity to meet someone outside the family 819 00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:52,533 who claims Jesse shared with him 820 00:36:52,667 --> 00:36:56,133 extraordinary details of the Roswell incident, 821 00:36:56,266 --> 00:36:59,266 secrets that might lie hidden in the coded writing 822 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,834 of the mysterious journal. 823 00:37:00,967 --> 00:37:03,867 - He started off by saying, "Look, you know, 824 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,066 this thing that happened to me was real." 825 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,667 Fishburne: Calvin Parker says 826 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,900 he was introduced to Jesse Marcel 827 00:37:10,033 --> 00:37:11,667 by a mutual acquaintance. 828 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,367 - Your granddaddy said that they staged a site away 829 00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:16,834 from the actual site 830 00:37:16,967 --> 00:37:19,767 to keep the general public away. 831 00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:22,166 They took weather balloons out to the field 832 00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:24,600 and tried to distribute little pieces around 833 00:37:24,734 --> 00:37:26,600 so people could find them. 834 00:37:26,734 --> 00:37:28,600 - That I have never heard. 835 00:37:28,734 --> 00:37:30,867 Fishburne: Parker claims that Jesse Marcel told him 836 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,133 about an elaborate military operation 837 00:37:33,266 --> 00:37:36,734 to retrieve alien bodies and orchestrate a cover-up 838 00:37:36,867 --> 00:37:41,066 to make it look like a weather balloon had crashed. 839 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,400 - The first time he mentioned it, 840 00:37:42,533 --> 00:37:44,734 he said they was actually bodies out. 841 00:37:44,867 --> 00:37:47,667 - He said that he saw some? - Exactly. 842 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,233 A special unit got the bodies, and he wasn't part of that. 843 00:37:51,367 --> 00:37:52,600 - Oh. - But they took them back 844 00:37:52,734 --> 00:37:55,066 to the base at Roswell. 845 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,033 - And he described all of this to you? 846 00:37:57,166 --> 00:37:58,567 - He described every bit of it to me. 847 00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:00,233 - It's so interesting that these are details 848 00:38:00,367 --> 00:38:01,500 that I've not heard before-- - Yeah. 849 00:38:01,633 --> 00:38:02,834 I've not heard these either. 850 00:38:02,967 --> 00:38:04,467 - That he didn't tell Linda Corley, 851 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,500 that he didn't tell his family members. 852 00:38:06,633 --> 00:38:08,734 - He didn't tell us, yep. - That's pretty-- 853 00:38:08,867 --> 00:38:11,734 - Well, he felt like he could talk because I told him 854 00:38:11,867 --> 00:38:13,433 that as long as he was alive, 855 00:38:13,567 --> 00:38:17,266 I would never say nothing about it, and I didn't. 856 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:18,900 To my surprise, he told me-- 857 00:38:19,033 --> 00:38:24,533 He said, "I've got something that I want to show you." 858 00:38:24,667 --> 00:38:26,800 He said, "I have evidence. 859 00:38:26,934 --> 00:38:28,967 I have proof of this." - He has proof? 860 00:38:29,100 --> 00:38:31,600 Jesse said he had proof? 861 00:38:31,734 --> 00:38:35,367 - I said, "Oh, I'd love to see it," 862 00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:37,767 so he told me there's a screwdriver 863 00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:40,400 in the kitchen drawer, go get it, 864 00:38:40,533 --> 00:38:44,400 go down to a hot-water heater and take the top off 865 00:38:44,533 --> 00:38:46,834 and bring it up here to me. 866 00:38:46,967 --> 00:38:49,800 Fishburne: Calvin Parker says that Marcel told him 867 00:38:49,934 --> 00:38:52,800 he'd kept pieces of debris from the Roswell crash 868 00:38:52,934 --> 00:38:56,467 and hidden them inside a water heater in his home. 869 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,967 - I was fixing to unscrew it. I was going to look at these. 870 00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:01,367 - So you actually touched it and put the screwdriver to it? 871 00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:05,300 - Oh, I was ready to when somebody showed up at the door. 872 00:39:05,433 --> 00:39:07,033 - Huh. - Oh, my gosh. 873 00:39:07,166 --> 00:39:09,200 - I don't know who this was knocking at the door, 874 00:39:09,333 --> 00:39:13,133 but he didn't want to talk about it in front of him. 875 00:39:13,266 --> 00:39:14,400 - Right. - So I didn't feel 876 00:39:14,533 --> 00:39:17,400 real welcome there, and I got up and left. 877 00:39:17,533 --> 00:39:19,533 I was planning on coming back the next day, 878 00:39:19,667 --> 00:39:21,567 but I had to go to work. 879 00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:26,133 I went offshore for 160 days, and I got back, 880 00:39:26,266 --> 00:39:28,300 and I couldn't wait to get back over and see 881 00:39:28,433 --> 00:39:30,667 and get that debris. 882 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,133 I went to the house, and I found out he had passed away. 883 00:39:34,266 --> 00:39:37,033 It broke my heart. 884 00:39:37,166 --> 00:39:40,266 - Did your father ever talk to you about the water heater, 885 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,667 about hiding debris here in Houma? 886 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,500 - No. This is literally the first time 887 00:39:44,633 --> 00:39:47,600 I've ever heard this story. If anything, I always was told 888 00:39:47,734 --> 00:39:51,133 that my grandfather didn't keep anything. 889 00:39:51,266 --> 00:39:54,333 Did he ever say why he had never brought it out earlier? 890 00:39:54,467 --> 00:39:56,166 That would've helped prove his story 891 00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:57,800 that he wasn't making it up and is like, 892 00:39:57,934 --> 00:39:59,800 "Hey, people. I really do have proof," 893 00:39:59,934 --> 00:40:01,900 so I'm wondering-- I'm curious as to why 894 00:40:02,033 --> 00:40:04,633 he decided to show it to you at that point. 895 00:40:04,767 --> 00:40:07,000 - Well, he was real loyal to his country. 896 00:40:07,133 --> 00:40:09,367 - Right. - He was military. 897 00:40:09,500 --> 00:40:12,867 You follow orders when the military gives you orders. 898 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,867 And I think there was 899 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,767 a reluctance there against his conscience 900 00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:21,867 about coming out against an order that he had had. 901 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,400 - Right. - He told me that 902 00:40:23,533 --> 00:40:24,800 when he took this material, 903 00:40:24,934 --> 00:40:27,867 it was a real trip for him to keep it hid, 904 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,734 but he knew that he'd never get to see it again 905 00:40:30,867 --> 00:40:32,667 when they got to Roswell. 906 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,734 - Yeah. - So he, 907 00:40:34,867 --> 00:40:37,066 for lack of a better word, had to steal it-- 908 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,567 - Yeah. 909 00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:40,800 - From the cleanup effort. - He stole the material, yeah. 910 00:40:40,934 --> 00:40:42,500 The man was on his deathbed. 911 00:40:42,633 --> 00:40:44,033 - Right. - You could tell 912 00:40:44,166 --> 00:40:46,834 physically that he was having to take something. 913 00:40:46,967 --> 00:40:48,967 - Yeah. - But mentally, he seemed 914 00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:51,467 to be intact, he seemed to be all there. 915 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,567 - Yeah. - He didn't wanna die 916 00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:55,433 with this on his conscience. 917 00:40:55,567 --> 00:40:58,200 ♪ ♪ 918 00:40:58,333 --> 00:41:02,600 - From a security standpoint, it makes sense that Jesse Sr. 919 00:41:02,734 --> 00:41:05,567 would anticipate continued scrutiny on his family. 920 00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:07,233 - Yes. - And that he might 921 00:41:07,367 --> 00:41:09,734 want to introduce somebody without-- 922 00:41:09,867 --> 00:41:12,500 who believes, who we can identify with 923 00:41:12,633 --> 00:41:15,100 but without that public presence. 924 00:41:15,233 --> 00:41:17,533 - Right. - Someone like Calvin. 925 00:41:17,667 --> 00:41:19,533 - Right. 926 00:41:19,667 --> 00:41:22,800 ♪ ♪ 927 00:41:22,934 --> 00:41:25,867 - There could be some debris left around, 928 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,867 probably right there in that house somewhere, 929 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,567 if it's still there. 930 00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:32,066 - So you think the debris could still be at the house? 931 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,567 - I know it could be. - Huh. 932 00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:36,734 The house is just down the road from here, and-- 933 00:41:36,867 --> 00:41:38,767 - Yeah. There's no doubt in my mind. 934 00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:41,066 - And I've been to the debris field. 935 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:42,633 I've been out there searching, 936 00:41:42,767 --> 00:41:44,233 and it's hard to find anything, 937 00:41:44,367 --> 00:41:46,934 but here actually is a fresh lead in the investigation 938 00:41:47,066 --> 00:41:48,533 that I haven't encountered yet. 939 00:41:48,667 --> 00:41:50,033 - It could mean everything. - Yeah, everything. 940 00:41:50,166 --> 00:41:51,500 - This is probably the best chance 941 00:41:51,633 --> 00:41:54,266 we have of finding anything left of that crash site. 942 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:55,867 - Right. 943 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,767 - Thank you for taking the time. This has been wonderful. 944 00:41:57,900 --> 00:42:00,200 - Thank you. It's been my pleasure. 945 00:42:00,333 --> 00:42:02,333 - Thank you very much. - Denice, thank you. 946 00:42:02,467 --> 00:42:03,700 - Thank you. 947 00:42:03,834 --> 00:42:07,266 ♪ ♪ 948 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,633 - Order of business number one is get that home 949 00:42:10,767 --> 00:42:14,200 and see what we can find. - Yes. 950 00:42:14,333 --> 00:42:15,867 - The trickiest part about the debris field 951 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,266 is that even if we find a piece of metal, 952 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:19,967 we have no idea how it got there. 953 00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:21,000 - Right. - So many people 954 00:42:21,133 --> 00:42:22,867 have been there over time, 955 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,333 before and after. 956 00:42:24,467 --> 00:42:27,433 It could've arrived there in any number of ways, 957 00:42:27,567 --> 00:42:32,467 But if we something hidden on the inside of a water heater, 958 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,066 we know your grandfather put it there. 959 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,133 - Right. 960 00:42:36,266 --> 00:42:38,100 Fishburne: If they could find a piece of debris 961 00:42:38,233 --> 00:42:39,667 taken from the crash site, 962 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,834 it would be an astounding development 963 00:42:41,967 --> 00:42:44,233 in the saga of Roswell. 964 00:42:44,367 --> 00:42:45,700 ♪ ♪ 965 00:42:45,834 --> 00:42:47,667 Smith and Denice Marcel 966 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,900 will try to get inside Jesse Marcel's old house, 967 00:42:51,033 --> 00:42:53,166 which is only a short drive away. 968 00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:54,467 ♪ ♪ 969 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,767 - Coming into this cold. 970 00:42:56,900 --> 00:42:58,000 The person doesn't know us. 971 00:42:58,133 --> 00:42:59,533 We don't know them. - Right. 972 00:42:59,667 --> 00:43:01,867 - We just have to be prepared for the gamut. 973 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,166 - I got you. 974 00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:06,567 - Tea and cookies versus shotgun kind of thing. 975 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:07,934 - Okay. - So I have no idea. 976 00:43:08,066 --> 00:43:15,000 ♪ ♪ 977 00:43:17,433 --> 00:43:19,500 Let's not say that we're UFO researchers. 978 00:43:19,633 --> 00:43:21,400 - Oh, yeah. No. - We're researching 979 00:43:21,533 --> 00:43:23,400 local family history. - Okay. 980 00:43:23,533 --> 00:43:24,400 - You used to live in the house. 981 00:43:24,533 --> 00:43:25,734 - Okay. - The Marcel family, 982 00:43:25,867 --> 00:43:27,200 in particular, 983 00:43:27,333 --> 00:43:28,767 and we can get into the UFO stuff later... 984 00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:30,133 - Okay. - Once we feel comfortable 985 00:43:30,266 --> 00:43:31,567 that it's not gonna put them off. 986 00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:33,467 - That sounds like a really good idea. 987 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,834 ♪ ♪ 988 00:43:35,967 --> 00:43:37,367 - This is the part that makes me nervous 989 00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:38,667 but also gets me excited. 990 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,767 - Yes. I know what you mean. 991 00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:48,867 ♪ ♪ 992 00:43:51,633 --> 00:43:56,133 - Hello. - Hi. How are you? 993 00:43:56,266 --> 00:43:57,367 - Hello. - All right. 994 00:43:57,500 --> 00:43:59,767 - Hi! - Hey. I'm Ben. 995 00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:01,233 - Matt. 996 00:44:01,367 --> 00:44:04,333 - Matt. Nice to meet you. - Hi. I'm Denice. 997 00:44:04,467 --> 00:44:05,633 - Denice used to live here. 998 00:44:05,767 --> 00:44:06,900 Well, her grandfather used to live here. 999 00:44:07,033 --> 00:44:08,734 - My grandfather used to live here. 1000 00:44:08,867 --> 00:44:10,767 - Would you mind if she walked me 1001 00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:12,266 through a little bit of the property 1002 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,333 to show me where things were? 1003 00:44:14,467 --> 00:44:16,967 ♪ ♪ 1004 00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:19,700 Fishburne: The owner is reluctant to let them enter, 1005 00:44:19,834 --> 00:44:21,967 and so for now, it's impossible 1006 00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:24,133 to verify Parker's claim. 1007 00:44:24,266 --> 00:44:29,266 ♪ ♪ 1008 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:30,233 Coming up... 1009 00:44:30,367 --> 00:44:31,600 - Whatever they hit is squished, 1010 00:44:31,734 --> 00:44:33,066 but all these are holes. 1011 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,333 Fishburne: This man claims he has debris 1012 00:44:35,467 --> 00:44:37,066 from a UFO that crashed 1013 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,734 at nearly the same time as Roswell 1014 00:44:39,867 --> 00:44:42,000 but 200 miles away. 1015 00:44:42,133 --> 00:44:46,066 ♪ ♪ 1016 00:44:49,867 --> 00:44:52,700 [dramatic mus] 1017 00:44:52,834 --> 00:44:59,700 ♪ ♪ 1018 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:04,166 - I am in Southern New Mexico on my way 1019 00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:07,600 to the home of a guy named Chuck Wade. 1020 00:45:07,734 --> 00:45:10,367 Now, Chuck Wade claims to have a piece of debris 1021 00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:14,300 recovered from a potential UFO crash site. 1022 00:45:14,433 --> 00:45:15,900 Fishburne: Ben Smith couldn't get access 1023 00:45:16,033 --> 00:45:17,467 to Jesse Marcel's former house 1024 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,100 to verify whether it contained 1025 00:45:19,233 --> 00:45:21,333 Roswell crash debris. 1026 00:45:21,467 --> 00:45:23,533 Now Smith is following up another lead 1027 00:45:23,667 --> 00:45:25,934 and meeting with a man named Chuck Wade, 1028 00:45:26,066 --> 00:45:28,600 who is convinced he has UFO debris 1029 00:45:28,734 --> 00:45:31,734 from a spacecraft that crashed in 1947. 1030 00:45:31,867 --> 00:45:38,834 ♪ ♪ 1031 00:45:41,767 --> 00:45:44,066 - Hey. How you doing? - Good. How are you, Chuck? 1032 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,834 - Come on in. 1033 00:45:45,967 --> 00:45:47,266 - Did your dad have 1034 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,400 a relationship with Mac before that July? 1035 00:45:49,533 --> 00:45:51,166 - Oh, yeah. - If you're the guy 1036 00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:53,967 that owns the bar, everybody knows you. 1037 00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:55,166 - Yeah. - Yeah. 1038 00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:59,300 Dad owned that bar for many, many years, 1039 00:45:59,433 --> 00:46:03,667 and I just loved to be there and listen to the stories. 1040 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,667 I was seven years old the year 1041 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,000 that the Roswell incident happened there next to Corona. 1042 00:46:10,133 --> 00:46:12,734 Fishburne: Chuck Wade's father, Jesse Wade, 1043 00:46:12,867 --> 00:46:15,900 owned the bar in Corona where rancher Mac Brazel 1044 00:46:16,033 --> 00:46:17,567 first came to show his neighbors 1045 00:46:17,700 --> 00:46:21,000 the strange debris he'd found while herding sheep. 1046 00:46:21,133 --> 00:46:23,667 Although it is known as the Roswell incident, 1047 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,934 the small farming community of Corona 1048 00:46:26,066 --> 00:46:30,066 was the closest to where Mac found the debris. 1049 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,266 - Mac Brazel found something that he doesn't know, 1050 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,734 and recognize at all on the Foster Ranch, 1051 00:46:36,867 --> 00:46:39,934 so he came to Corona and asked my father to go out 1052 00:46:40,066 --> 00:46:42,166 and see what in the world it was, 1053 00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:45,066 'cause he--Mac just flat didn't know. 1054 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,400 But my dad was busy, and it was just himself in the bar, 1055 00:46:49,533 --> 00:46:53,066 so Dad chose not to close the bar. 1056 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,934 Dad regretted that, I'm going to say, immensely. 1057 00:46:58,066 --> 00:46:59,567 He'd always say, 1058 00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:02,066 "I wished I'd went with Mac to see what was out there." 1059 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,433 - Right. 1060 00:47:04,567 --> 00:47:06,200 Fishburne: Chuck Wade also wanted 1061 00:47:06,333 --> 00:47:08,667 to see what was out there. 1062 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,367 After running his own construction company, 1063 00:47:11,500 --> 00:47:14,100 Wade has devoted most of the last 20 years 1064 00:47:14,233 --> 00:47:15,667 to researching UFOs. 1065 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,800 ♪ ♪ 1066 00:47:18,934 --> 00:47:22,233 - So tell me a little bit about some of the sites and debris 1067 00:47:22,367 --> 00:47:24,500 that you recovered. 1068 00:47:24,633 --> 00:47:28,433 I think it could inform my investigation of Roswell. 1069 00:47:28,567 --> 00:47:32,533 - Have y'all studied the crash on the Plains of San Agustin? 1070 00:47:32,667 --> 00:47:34,166 - No. 1071 00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:36,567 Fishburne: Wade has come to a startling conclusion: 1072 00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:40,600 Roswell was only one of a series of UFO crashes 1073 00:47:40,734 --> 00:47:44,567 that took place in Southern New Mexico during that time. 1074 00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:48,967 According to Wade, there were seven UFO crashes in total. 1075 00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:53,767 Five of them occurred during the first week of July 1947. 1076 00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:58,633 - The first one here was August 1945. 1077 00:47:58,767 --> 00:48:00,233 This one right here, the night of the 1st 1078 00:48:00,367 --> 00:48:03,100 to the 2nd of July, 1947. 1079 00:48:03,233 --> 00:48:06,333 These three, four, five and six 1080 00:48:06,467 --> 00:48:12,000 was about 11:00 on July the 4th, 1947, 1081 00:48:12,133 --> 00:48:16,133 and this one up here was in March 1948. 1082 00:48:16,266 --> 00:48:17,734 Fishburne: Chuck Wade has a theory 1083 00:48:17,867 --> 00:48:20,467 about what caused the spaceships to crash. 1084 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,000 - What happened, folks, is, 1085 00:48:23,133 --> 00:48:26,200 whenever they put in Los Alamos National Laboratory, 1086 00:48:26,333 --> 00:48:30,800 they installed three major, high-powered radars 1087 00:48:30,934 --> 00:48:33,467 to guard the skies over Los Alamos. 1088 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,667 Fishburne: Wade, who supervised construction 1089 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,000 of dozens of air-traffic-control towers 1090 00:48:38,133 --> 00:48:41,700 across the U.S., believes powerful radar signals 1091 00:48:41,834 --> 00:48:44,533 emitted from the Los Alamos nuclear site 1092 00:48:44,667 --> 00:48:47,200 caused short circuits in the spaceships. 1093 00:48:47,333 --> 00:48:50,767 - It electrified that craft, and it came down in flames. 1094 00:48:50,900 --> 00:48:55,800 ♪ ♪ 1095 00:48:55,934 --> 00:48:58,467 Fishburne: Of what he claims are seven UFO crashes, 1096 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,200 Wade became obsessed with one in particular, 1097 00:49:01,333 --> 00:49:04,700 which he believes crashed on the Plains of San Agustin 1098 00:49:04,834 --> 00:49:08,300 48 hours before the Roswell crash. 1099 00:49:08,433 --> 00:49:10,066 - New Mexico is basically square. 1100 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:11,900 Corona is basically 1101 00:49:12,033 --> 00:49:14,767 really close to the center of the state. 1102 00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:18,200 What we call the Roswell incident happened about 1103 00:49:18,333 --> 00:49:20,867 30 miles southeast of Corona. 1104 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,600 The Plains of San Agustin is over here, 1105 00:49:23,734 --> 00:49:25,667 about 200 miles. 1106 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,266 ♪ ♪ 1107 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,166 - Chuck started going to UFO conferences. 1108 00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:33,200 One of the speakers had discovered 1109 00:49:33,333 --> 00:49:34,600 some pieces of debris, 1110 00:49:34,734 --> 00:49:37,300 and he wanted to go and look for more debris. 1111 00:49:37,433 --> 00:49:38,767 - Mm. - Chuck said, well, 1112 00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:40,266 he would help him with that, 1113 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,600 and he'd get some guys to come and help dig. 1114 00:49:43,734 --> 00:49:46,000 So they did. 1115 00:49:46,133 --> 00:49:49,367 That was in 2004. 1116 00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:52,467 And they found some stuff. 1117 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,600 - I'd love to see it, if I can. 1118 00:49:54,734 --> 00:49:58,467 - Well, I think it's right around the corner here. 1119 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,266 Fishburne: The Wades have several fragments. 1120 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:07,200 ♪ ♪ 1121 00:50:07,333 --> 00:50:10,066 - Can you tell me what I'm looking at here? 1122 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,300 - These here is the foils. - Mm-hmm. 1123 00:50:14,433 --> 00:50:16,333 - And then these here have got -- 1124 00:50:16,467 --> 00:50:20,033 Whatever they hit is squished, but all these are holes. 1125 00:50:20,166 --> 00:50:22,433 - Actually, can I remove the glass for a closer look? 1126 00:50:22,567 --> 00:50:23,900 - Sure, be glad to. 1127 00:50:24,033 --> 00:50:25,767 - And did you take this to the government at all? 1128 00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:27,900 - Not going to have any reason to do that. 1129 00:50:28,033 --> 00:50:30,100 - Well, I'm just curious, you know? 1130 00:50:30,233 --> 00:50:32,000 - No. I'm sure. - If you find a UFO, 1131 00:50:32,133 --> 00:50:33,734 I don't know what the government would say, 1132 00:50:33,867 --> 00:50:35,066 to be honest. 1133 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,500 - I believe they said they didn't exist. 1134 00:50:36,633 --> 00:50:38,133 - That's true. 1135 00:50:38,266 --> 00:50:40,200 The official position is, you know, they don't exist, 1136 00:50:40,333 --> 00:50:42,367 but things are starting to change. 1137 00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:44,367 - It's a good question, but no. 1138 00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:48,867 I avoid the government as best as I possibly could. 1139 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:53,400 There is a huge, monstrous, gigantic cover-up 1140 00:50:53,533 --> 00:50:54,900 on the Roswell incident. 1141 00:50:55,033 --> 00:50:57,934 No one in Corona was allowed-- 1142 00:50:58,066 --> 00:51:03,000 they were ordered not to talk about that crash. 1143 00:51:03,133 --> 00:51:07,000 - Yeah. There's a lot of mistrust in the community 1144 00:51:07,133 --> 00:51:10,000 among UFO researchers of the federal government. 1145 00:51:10,133 --> 00:51:11,266 I think a lot of it stems 1146 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:16,967 from the reaction or overreaction in 1947. 1147 00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:19,133 - They found something on the Foster Ranch. 1148 00:51:19,266 --> 00:51:22,467 They didn't know what it was or where it came from. 1149 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,800 I think Jesse Marcel is telling the truth 100%. 1150 00:51:25,934 --> 00:51:30,133 I see no reason for him to do other than tell the truth. 1151 00:51:30,266 --> 00:51:32,500 The Roswell incident was from outer space, 1152 00:51:32,633 --> 00:51:33,834 and there's not a chance 1153 00:51:33,967 --> 00:51:35,600 it was a damn balloon that we made. 1154 00:51:37,734 --> 00:51:40,700 - Now, this one is pretty fascinating. 1155 00:51:40,834 --> 00:51:43,500 ♪ ♪ 1156 00:51:43,633 --> 00:51:47,133 Can I take a piece with me to get it analyzed myself? 1157 00:51:47,266 --> 00:51:49,166 - What do you think? 1158 00:51:49,300 --> 00:51:51,300 I don't know. It's okay with me. 1159 00:51:51,433 --> 00:51:53,033 - Do you mind if I take this one here? 1160 00:51:53,166 --> 00:51:54,133 - Oh, sure. Sure. 1161 00:51:54,266 --> 00:51:55,934 - Yeah? - We'd be glad to-- 1162 00:51:56,066 --> 00:51:57,233 Any of them that you want, 1163 00:51:57,367 --> 00:52:00,500 we'll be glad to take a piece off. 1164 00:52:00,633 --> 00:52:02,200 I want to know where it came from. 1165 00:52:02,333 --> 00:52:05,200 Why is it here? Why don't they tell us about it? 1166 00:52:05,333 --> 00:52:08,266 [saw whirring] 1167 00:52:10,133 --> 00:52:11,567 - That is pretty hard to cut, actually. 1168 00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:13,266 - Yeah. - It's, uh-- 1169 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,400 Fishburne: Smith plans to get this piece of metal tested 1170 00:52:15,533 --> 00:52:17,667 to see what elements it's composed of 1171 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,367 and if there is anything about it 1172 00:52:19,500 --> 00:52:21,734 that can suggest where it came from. 1173 00:52:21,867 --> 00:52:26,400 ♪ ♪ 1174 00:52:26,533 --> 00:52:27,900 Coming up... 1175 00:52:28,033 --> 00:52:29,400 - How are you doing? - Good. How are you? 1176 00:52:29,533 --> 00:52:31,734 Fishburne: Has this seasoned crash investigator 1177 00:52:31,867 --> 00:52:34,200 found the clue that everyone missed? 1178 00:52:34,333 --> 00:52:36,166 - There's something under the ground there. 1179 00:52:36,300 --> 00:52:41,734 ♪ ♪ 1180 00:52:45,867 --> 00:52:48,734 [dramatic music] 1181 00:52:48,867 --> 00:52:55,700 ♪ ♪ 1182 00:52:55,834 --> 00:52:58,000 - I'm just outside Denver, Colorado, 1183 00:52:58,133 --> 00:53:00,066 on my way to meet David Soucie, 1184 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,367 our crash-site expert. 1185 00:53:02,500 --> 00:53:05,567 Fishburne: David Soucie is a former accident inspector 1186 00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:08,533 for the Federal Aviation Administration. 1187 00:53:08,667 --> 00:53:11,900 Soucie has investigated hundreds of crash sites, 1188 00:53:12,033 --> 00:53:14,700 so when Ben Smith took him to the debris field 1189 00:53:14,834 --> 00:53:17,133 where Jesse Marcel first saw what he believed 1190 00:53:17,266 --> 00:53:19,567 to be pieces of wrecked spacecraft, 1191 00:53:19,700 --> 00:53:24,100 Soucie started by measuring wind currents. 1192 00:53:24,233 --> 00:53:25,934 Soucie's gut reaction: 1193 00:53:26,066 --> 00:53:28,533 whatever crashed here wasn't lightweight. 1194 00:53:28,667 --> 00:53:31,100 This contradicts the U.S. military's story 1195 00:53:31,233 --> 00:53:33,867 that what crashed at Roswell was a weather balloon 1196 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:35,266 or part of the top-secret, 1197 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,200 lighter-than-air Project Mogul. 1198 00:53:37,333 --> 00:53:40,800 - I'm not sure I buy that whole balloon-drag theory. 1199 00:53:40,934 --> 00:53:43,367 - Really? 1200 00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:47,867 David collected all kinds of data from the debris field: 1201 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,734 wind, geographic features, weather. 1202 00:53:51,867 --> 00:53:54,433 I'm hoping that he can eliminate 1203 00:53:54,567 --> 00:53:57,400 one aircraft or another. 1204 00:53:57,533 --> 00:53:58,734 Fishburne: Smith wants David Soucie 1205 00:53:58,867 --> 00:54:00,533 to compare his initial finding 1206 00:54:00,667 --> 00:54:02,333 with the Deep Earth analysis 1207 00:54:02,467 --> 00:54:04,667 done by Canadian geophysicists 1208 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,500 Colin Miazga and Eric Johnson 1209 00:54:07,633 --> 00:54:10,800 when they visited the debris field late last year. 1210 00:54:13,467 --> 00:54:16,133 Soucie has been communicating with them online. 1211 00:54:16,266 --> 00:54:17,300 - I understand you do 1212 00:54:17,433 --> 00:54:19,033 ground-penetrative radar, as well. 1213 00:54:19,166 --> 00:54:20,800 - Yeah. Yeah. - Okay. 1214 00:54:20,934 --> 00:54:23,633 Fishburne: The geophysicists used ground-penetrating radar 1215 00:54:23,767 --> 00:54:25,266 and gamma-ray technology 1216 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,867 to identify strange anomalies in the Earth... 1217 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,367 - Look at that. - Wow. That is interesting. 1218 00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:33,800 Fishburne: A kind of scarring that couldn't have come 1219 00:54:33,934 --> 00:54:35,834 from a deflated balloon crash. 1220 00:54:35,967 --> 00:54:39,333 - So this is the radar. - It doesn't make sense. 1221 00:54:39,467 --> 00:54:43,400 I can't understand what that would be. 1222 00:54:43,533 --> 00:54:50,500 ♪ ♪ 1223 00:55:01,834 --> 00:55:03,266 - Hey, Ben. - Hey, David. 1224 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:04,533 - How are you doing? - Good. How are you? 1225 00:55:04,667 --> 00:55:05,900 - Yeah. Well, come on in. - Oh, man. 1226 00:55:06,033 --> 00:55:08,900 I have been dying to see what you've done with that data. 1227 00:55:09,033 --> 00:55:10,900 - Well, there's a lot to look at, probably more 1228 00:55:11,033 --> 00:55:13,233 than you want to see. 1229 00:55:13,367 --> 00:55:14,867 The first thing I want to start with: 1230 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,000 This is an overview of the entire site, the entire area. 1231 00:55:18,133 --> 00:55:19,266 - Oh, wow. 1232 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,333 - That is the reported trajectory. 1233 00:55:22,467 --> 00:55:24,533 That's where they found the debris. 1234 00:55:24,667 --> 00:55:26,166 - Yeah. - And then from there, 1235 00:55:26,300 --> 00:55:27,533 it spread, they said, 1236 00:55:27,667 --> 00:55:29,433 as much as a mile in this direction off of that. 1237 00:55:29,567 --> 00:55:31,367 - Mm-hmm. 1238 00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:34,467 - A bunch of other interesting stuff that we can get through, 1239 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,200 and now this is what's really interesting. 1240 00:55:36,333 --> 00:55:39,433 This area really intrigues me right down at the bottom here 1241 00:55:39,567 --> 00:55:41,266 because the gamma readings 1242 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,734 are not consistent with the ground-penetrating radar. 1243 00:55:44,867 --> 00:55:46,367 ♪ ♪ 1244 00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:48,000 I've never seen that before. 1245 00:55:48,133 --> 00:55:49,700 - Huh. - It doesn't make sense me. 1246 00:55:49,834 --> 00:55:51,600 - You might have to walk me through the actual readings. 1247 00:55:51,734 --> 00:55:53,066 - All right. - Because I'm having 1248 00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,066 a hard time visualizing it. - Yeah. Let's do that. 1249 00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,700 These red areas indicate that the ground-penetrating radar 1250 00:55:57,834 --> 00:56:00,333 says it's extremely dense, which is where the rocks are. 1251 00:56:00,467 --> 00:56:01,734 - Yeah. - And that sort of thing. 1252 00:56:01,867 --> 00:56:04,633 Here's an example of a dense area, 1253 00:56:04,767 --> 00:56:06,433 and in this dense area, 1254 00:56:06,567 --> 00:56:10,266 you would expect to see low gamma rays because it has -- 1255 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:12,667 It's not coming through. It's blocking the gamma. 1256 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:14,233 So let's look at that spot here. 1257 00:56:14,367 --> 00:56:16,834 Gamma rays are indicated by yellow or green, 1258 00:56:16,967 --> 00:56:19,867 and if there's less gamma, it's blue, and sure enough, 1259 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,433 here's this light blue where the rocks were. 1260 00:56:21,567 --> 00:56:22,600 - Yeah. - And then here's 1261 00:56:22,734 --> 00:56:24,000 the same thing here. 1262 00:56:24,133 --> 00:56:25,800 - It almost matches perfectly with the GPR. 1263 00:56:25,934 --> 00:56:27,166 - Yes. You could look at 1264 00:56:27,300 --> 00:56:28,700 any of these spots, any of these blues here. 1265 00:56:28,834 --> 00:56:29,934 - Yep. - And it aligns 1266 00:56:30,066 --> 00:56:31,700 with these reds here. - Got it. 1267 00:56:31,834 --> 00:56:33,266 ♪ ♪ 1268 00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:34,667 - This spot... 1269 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:36,133 ♪ ♪ 1270 00:56:36,266 --> 00:56:38,133 now that we're just a little above the green line-- 1271 00:56:38,266 --> 00:56:39,867 We were looking here before, below the green line. 1272 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,133 - Right. 1273 00:56:41,266 --> 00:56:42,467 - But now above there, that's red. 1274 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,100 Let's take a closer look at it. 1275 00:56:44,233 --> 00:56:46,734 See all the red? All the red. It's dense. 1276 00:56:46,867 --> 00:56:49,567 It's hard and solid, which would block gamma. 1277 00:56:49,700 --> 00:56:51,133 - Uh-huh. 1278 00:56:51,266 --> 00:56:52,734 - So now I'm going to flip this. I'm going to think, 1279 00:56:52,867 --> 00:56:54,533 well, we're going to find a blue spot there. 1280 00:56:54,667 --> 00:56:57,066 But instead, look what we find: 1281 00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:58,667 the opposite of what I would expect. 1282 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,266 - Right. - And not only 1283 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,900 what I would expect, but what we witnessed right here. 1284 00:57:03,033 --> 00:57:05,033 That was consistent with tight compaction 1285 00:57:05,166 --> 00:57:06,300 and blocking the gammas. 1286 00:57:06,433 --> 00:57:09,433 - Yeah. - But now it's yellow. 1287 00:57:09,567 --> 00:57:11,867 - The highest. - Not only is it high, 1288 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,100 it is the highest right there. 1289 00:57:15,233 --> 00:57:17,633 ♪ ♪ 1290 00:57:17,767 --> 00:57:20,533 - It's something that-- It doesn't make sense to me. 1291 00:57:20,667 --> 00:57:23,033 - Have you ever seen that in a wreck that you-- 1292 00:57:23,166 --> 00:57:24,600 - No. No. I have not. 1293 00:57:24,734 --> 00:57:26,700 I've not seen this before. There's something there. 1294 00:57:26,834 --> 00:57:29,800 There's something unique about this spot above the green line. 1295 00:57:29,934 --> 00:57:31,066 As an accident investigator 1296 00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,066 and what I've been doing my entire life, 1297 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:34,834 there's something under the ground there. 1298 00:57:34,967 --> 00:57:36,400 There's something making these changes, 1299 00:57:36,533 --> 00:57:38,433 these readings different. 1300 00:57:38,567 --> 00:57:41,467 - So what could make that kind of contrast, 1301 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,800 the high density with high radiation? 1302 00:57:43,934 --> 00:57:45,033 - The only thing I can think of 1303 00:57:45,166 --> 00:57:47,133 is that in ground-penetrating radar, 1304 00:57:47,266 --> 00:57:50,667 a rubber or polyethylene and rubber... 1305 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,000 - Uh-huh. - Can create that illusion 1306 00:57:53,133 --> 00:57:55,166 of high density. 1307 00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:57,967 But it would also allow gamma to come up through it 1308 00:57:58,100 --> 00:58:01,033 because it's not going to block the gamma rays. 1309 00:58:01,166 --> 00:58:02,934 Fishburne: After analyzing the data, 1310 00:58:03,066 --> 00:58:06,033 David Soucie can no longer rule out the possibility 1311 00:58:06,166 --> 00:58:09,900 that it was a Mogul balloon that went down at Roswell. 1312 00:58:10,033 --> 00:58:11,600 - So, I mean, a Mogul balloon 1313 00:58:11,734 --> 00:58:13,367 was made of something like neoprene. 1314 00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:16,200 - Exactly, so to me, that explains it. 1315 00:58:16,333 --> 00:58:18,266 To me, that is what I would be looking for. 1316 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:19,967 That's the assumption I would make 1317 00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:22,166 and go out and try to find that. 1318 00:58:22,300 --> 00:58:24,900 Fishburne: Soucie admits that his analysis is just 1319 00:58:25,033 --> 00:58:26,867 an educated guess, 1320 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,800 and even that is based on a 1995 government report 1321 00:58:30,934 --> 00:58:33,400 which provided no physical evidence 1322 00:58:33,533 --> 00:58:38,767 but asserted that a Mogul balloon crashed at Roswell, 1323 00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:40,400 a report millions of Americans 1324 00:58:40,533 --> 00:58:42,233 still don't believe. 1325 00:58:42,367 --> 00:58:45,767 - [chanting] Hey, hey, UFOs, people have the right to know! 1326 00:58:45,900 --> 00:58:48,266 - If this group of 100 demonstrators is correct, 1327 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,100 the U.S. government is covering up 1328 00:58:50,233 --> 00:58:52,800 the most important secret of all time: 1329 00:58:52,934 --> 00:58:58,266 alien beings who have made contact with Earthlings. 1330 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,400 - They said, "Well, what about the bodies?" 1331 00:59:00,533 --> 00:59:02,967 How could so many people have come forward and say, 1332 00:59:03,100 --> 00:59:05,533 "Well, when I was a kid, I saw this, and I saw these bodies, 1333 00:59:05,667 --> 00:59:07,767 "and I saw this stuff, and some Air Force guys 1334 00:59:07,900 --> 00:59:09,834 came out and picked up stuff in the desert." 1335 00:59:09,967 --> 00:59:12,633 How do we explain that? 1336 00:59:12,767 --> 00:59:15,467 Fishburne: At that infamous 1997 press conference, 1337 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,500 where the Air Force doubled down on its claim 1338 00:59:17,633 --> 00:59:20,467 that what crashed at Roswell was a Mogul balloon, 1339 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,066 it also issued a remarkable second report 1340 00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:27,333 that some believe undermined its entire explanation. 1341 00:59:27,467 --> 00:59:29,000 ♪ ♪ 1342 00:59:29,133 --> 00:59:31,266 - We're confident once the report is out 1343 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,100 and digested by the public, 1344 00:59:33,233 --> 00:59:36,533 that this will be the final word on the Roswell incident. 1345 00:59:37,934 --> 00:59:39,066 Fishburne: This second report 1346 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:40,734 offered what the Air Force hoped 1347 00:59:40,867 --> 00:59:44,100 was a logical explanation to appease those Americans 1348 00:59:44,233 --> 00:59:45,767 who found alleged eyewitness stories 1349 00:59:45,900 --> 00:59:51,266 about aliens at Roswell both believable and compelling. 1350 00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,367 - Bodies observed in the New Mexico desert 1351 00:59:53,500 --> 00:59:56,600 were probably test dummies that were carried aloft 1352 00:59:56,734 --> 00:59:59,166 by U.S. Air Force high-altitude balloons 1353 00:59:59,300 --> 01:00:00,633 for scientific research. 1354 01:00:02,867 --> 01:00:05,467 - Additional research uncovered information 1355 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,834 which explained some of the claims of alien bodies 1356 01:00:08,967 --> 01:00:12,266 associated with the Roswell incident. 1357 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,433 Fishburne: The second report, called "Case Solved," 1358 01:00:15,567 --> 01:00:16,900 was accompanied by a short film 1359 01:00:17,033 --> 01:00:18,333 produced by the Air Force. 1360 01:00:18,467 --> 01:00:20,000 ♪ ♪ 1361 01:00:20,133 --> 01:00:22,433 - The project's main objective 1362 01:00:22,567 --> 01:00:24,000 was to study methods 1363 01:00:24,133 --> 01:00:27,033 for returning a pilot or astronaut safely to Earth 1364 01:00:27,166 --> 01:00:29,700 by parachute if forced to eject 1365 01:00:29,834 --> 01:00:32,433 at extremely high altitudes. 1366 01:00:32,567 --> 01:00:37,433 For these tests, dummies were transported up to 98,000 feet 1367 01:00:37,567 --> 01:00:41,300 by high-altitude balloons. 1368 01:00:41,433 --> 01:00:42,633 Fishburne: The Air Force contended 1369 01:00:42,767 --> 01:00:44,000 that anyone who thought they'd seen 1370 01:00:44,133 --> 01:00:46,200 the military recovering alien bodies 1371 01:00:46,333 --> 01:00:48,266 were actually witnessing exercises 1372 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,133 that involved dropping anthropomorphic dummies 1373 01:00:51,266 --> 01:00:52,867 from high-altitude balloons. 1374 01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:54,800 ♪ ♪ 1375 01:00:54,934 --> 01:00:57,533 - Many of the dummies landed outside the confines 1376 01:00:57,667 --> 01:00:59,133 of military reservation 1377 01:00:59,266 --> 01:01:03,233 and were regularly observed by local civilians. 1378 01:01:03,367 --> 01:01:06,533 Critical examination of alleged alien sightings 1379 01:01:06,667 --> 01:01:09,100 consistently match the physical characteristics 1380 01:01:09,233 --> 01:01:10,533 of these dummies, 1381 01:01:10,667 --> 01:01:13,233 as well as where and how they were used. 1382 01:01:13,367 --> 01:01:15,333 ♪ ♪ 1383 01:01:15,467 --> 01:01:18,600 - I think it's logical to assume that the people there 1384 01:01:18,734 --> 01:01:22,100 saw Air Force ambulances come out. 1385 01:01:22,233 --> 01:01:23,433 They saw gurneys come out. 1386 01:01:23,567 --> 01:01:24,900 They saw body bags come out 1387 01:01:25,033 --> 01:01:26,367 because the dummies were put into body bags 1388 01:01:26,500 --> 01:01:29,033 to protect them, and when you put all that stuff 1389 01:01:29,166 --> 01:01:30,166 together and spin it, 1390 01:01:30,300 --> 01:01:31,734 you'll find that it fits perfectly 1391 01:01:31,867 --> 01:01:35,467 with many of the occurrences in Roswell during that era. 1392 01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:40,000 ♪ ♪ 1393 01:01:40,133 --> 01:01:41,433 Fishburne: At the press conference, 1394 01:01:41,567 --> 01:01:43,567 the problem with the Air Force's explanation 1395 01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:45,700 was obvious to reporters. 1396 01:01:45,834 --> 01:01:50,000 Its dummy-drop exercises didn't take place in 1947. 1397 01:01:50,133 --> 01:01:53,200 They only started in the early 1950s. 1398 01:01:53,333 --> 01:01:55,934 - They're talking about 1947, but you're talking 1399 01:01:56,066 --> 01:01:59,867 about dummies used in the '50s, almost a decade later. 1400 01:02:00,066 --> 01:02:02,133 - Well, I'm afraid that's the problem 1401 01:02:02,266 --> 01:02:04,900 that we have with time compression. 1402 01:02:05,033 --> 01:02:06,600 I don't know what they saw in '47, 1403 01:02:06,734 --> 01:02:10,567 but I'm quite sure it probably was Project Mogul. 1404 01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:12,967 Fishburne: UFO author and researcher Don Schmitt 1405 01:02:13,100 --> 01:02:15,667 believes the Air Force was disrespectful, 1406 01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:17,467 writing off alleged eyewitnesses 1407 01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,600 as having aging and faulty memories. 1408 01:02:20,734 --> 01:02:23,500 - "Oh, it's time compression." 1409 01:02:23,633 --> 01:02:27,233 New malady, not even in the medical books, 1410 01:02:27,367 --> 01:02:29,266 created by the Pentagon. 1411 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,900 "The older you get, you start to not only compress the years 1412 01:02:33,033 --> 01:02:36,633 but also the decades." But the problem with that: 1413 01:02:36,767 --> 01:02:39,633 All the personnel who were here in '47, 1414 01:02:39,767 --> 01:02:42,767 who were involved were no longer here in '52, 1415 01:02:42,900 --> 01:02:46,533 so how could they be mistaking wooden crash dummies in '52 1416 01:02:46,667 --> 01:02:48,166 if they weren't even here? 1417 01:02:48,300 --> 01:02:50,300 - Colonel, let me just go back one more time. 1418 01:02:50,433 --> 01:02:52,000 You say that this is case closed, 1419 01:02:52,133 --> 01:02:53,233 and people should now believe it, 1420 01:02:53,367 --> 01:02:55,100 but with the major hole, though: 1421 01:02:55,233 --> 01:02:57,400 You're saying that they're wrong about the date. 1422 01:02:57,533 --> 01:02:59,300 What explanation can you give them 1423 01:02:59,433 --> 01:03:00,967 other than just saying, 1424 01:03:01,100 --> 01:03:04,000 "Well, we just think they're just mistaken by six years?" 1425 01:03:04,133 --> 01:03:05,633 - I have no other explanation. 1426 01:03:05,767 --> 01:03:07,467 I'm sorry. I just-- I have no other explanation. 1427 01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,533 I'm looking at the facts as we have studied them, 1428 01:03:10,667 --> 01:03:11,867 and I have no other explanation 1429 01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:13,066 of that but what I've already given. 1430 01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:14,300 - But how-- - Yes, sir? 1431 01:03:14,433 --> 01:03:15,900 - Would that make it case closed? 1432 01:03:16,033 --> 01:03:19,000 - Because we've reviewed all the relevant information, 1433 01:03:19,133 --> 01:03:21,333 and we have finished this, and we're not going to revisit it. 1434 01:03:21,467 --> 01:03:23,400 - How do you know that you're not being used? 1435 01:03:23,533 --> 01:03:25,667 How do you know that you know the full story? 1436 01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,266 [laughter] 1437 01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,734 You're confident that you're not part of any cover-up 1438 01:03:29,867 --> 01:03:31,867 wittingly or unwittingly. 1439 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,600 - I'm totally confident, but I think Colonel Weaver-- 1440 01:03:34,734 --> 01:03:37,266 you might have seen him on TV earlier--said it best. 1441 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:39,700 We can't even keep single secrets. 1442 01:03:39,834 --> 01:03:42,467 How could we have a conspiracy or a cover-up? 1443 01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:43,834 - Well, it happened in 1953. 1444 01:03:43,967 --> 01:03:47,400 How could anybody mess that up from 1947? 1445 01:03:47,533 --> 01:03:49,533 People's memories fade over time. 1446 01:03:49,667 --> 01:03:51,967 - We think that this answers lots of questions, 1447 01:03:52,100 --> 01:03:55,033 and it answers them logically and with integrity. 1448 01:03:55,166 --> 01:04:01,767 ♪ ♪ 1449 01:04:01,900 --> 01:04:06,033 Fishburne: Coming up, closing in on who wrote the journal. 1450 01:04:06,166 --> 01:04:09,633 Could it be this man, a highly decorated war hero? 1451 01:04:09,767 --> 01:04:11,633 - There are some words and letter combinations 1452 01:04:11,767 --> 01:04:14,667 I do see in agreement. There is potential. 1453 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,567 ♪ ♪ 1454 01:04:22,433 --> 01:04:25,266 [dramatic music] 1455 01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:32,066 ♪ ♪ 1456 01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,100 - I'm excited to hear about your findings. 1457 01:04:35,233 --> 01:04:39,266 - So there are two styles of uppercase Ws 1458 01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,633 that I noticed in the journal. 1459 01:04:42,767 --> 01:04:45,433 Fishburne: Ben Smith is with forensic handwriting expert 1460 01:04:45,567 --> 01:04:49,000 Jennifer Naso, who has been analyzing writing samples 1461 01:04:49,133 --> 01:04:52,700 from some of the officers in the 509th bomber group. 1462 01:04:52,834 --> 01:04:55,133 She is checking to see if they could've written 1463 01:04:55,266 --> 01:04:58,033 the puzzling journal that belonged to their colleague, 1464 01:04:58,166 --> 01:05:00,967 Jesse Marcel. 1465 01:05:01,100 --> 01:05:02,600 Colonel William Blanchard, 1466 01:05:02,734 --> 01:05:04,700 commander of the Roswell Air Base, 1467 01:05:04,834 --> 01:05:06,166 would certainly have known 1468 01:05:06,300 --> 01:05:09,967 about any top secret operation in his sector. 1469 01:05:10,100 --> 01:05:13,333 - When we look at the Blanchard, 1470 01:05:13,467 --> 01:05:15,934 there are some dissimilarities, 1471 01:05:16,066 --> 01:05:19,133 but it's really not a whole lot to go on. 1472 01:05:19,266 --> 01:05:21,233 - So your professional judgment would be, 1473 01:05:21,367 --> 01:05:24,867 there's not enough data yet to confirm one way or the other. 1474 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,667 - Right. There would be no conclusion 1475 01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:29,100 as to whether or not he authored the journal 1476 01:05:29,233 --> 01:05:31,667 based on just the one signature that we have. 1477 01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,033 - Right. 1478 01:05:33,166 --> 01:05:35,000 - So in the Walter Haut handwriting, 1479 01:05:35,133 --> 01:05:36,600 I noticed that's what we would call 1480 01:05:36,734 --> 01:05:39,600 a combination style of writing. 1481 01:05:39,734 --> 01:05:41,066 Fishburne: Lieutenant Walter Haut 1482 01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,066 was the public information officer for the 509th, 1483 01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:46,133 who was ordered by Colonel Blanchard 1484 01:05:46,266 --> 01:05:48,200 to draft that famous press release 1485 01:05:48,333 --> 01:05:50,567 that a flying disc had been recovered. 1486 01:05:50,700 --> 01:05:53,900 - Where it's not all cursive, it's all not hand-printing, 1487 01:05:54,033 --> 01:05:58,000 so some letters have connecting strokes while others do not. 1488 01:05:58,133 --> 01:06:00,300 Right away, that's a difference between what I see 1489 01:06:00,433 --> 01:06:03,567 in the all-cursive writing of the journal, 1490 01:06:03,700 --> 01:06:06,934 so here is the word "and" in the journal. 1491 01:06:07,066 --> 01:06:08,767 See the formation of the A-- - Yeah. 1492 01:06:08,900 --> 01:06:12,433 - How it starts up around 2:00 1493 01:06:12,567 --> 01:06:15,633 and then comes counterclockwise and forms this other loop. 1494 01:06:15,767 --> 01:06:20,500 When we look at the "and" in the Walter Haut handwriting-- 1495 01:06:20,633 --> 01:06:25,233 - Oh, totally different. So already, I get the sense 1496 01:06:25,367 --> 01:06:28,166 that this journal was not written by Walter Haut. 1497 01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:32,133 - The characteristics that I'm noting thus far 1498 01:06:32,266 --> 01:06:35,066 are not similar to what I'm seeing in the journal. 1499 01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:36,734 - Yeah. 1500 01:06:36,867 --> 01:06:39,400 - The next sample would be 1501 01:06:39,533 --> 01:06:40,967 Robert Shirkey. - Yeah. 1502 01:06:41,100 --> 01:06:42,400 Fishburne: Lieutenant Robert Shirkey 1503 01:06:42,533 --> 01:06:45,734 was assistant operations officer for the 509th. 1504 01:06:45,867 --> 01:06:48,900 He also said Jesse Marcel was telling the truth 1505 01:06:49,033 --> 01:06:52,600 and claimed he'd seen debris flown out of Roswell 1506 01:06:52,734 --> 01:06:56,100 and believed it was extraterrestrial. 1507 01:06:56,233 --> 01:06:57,734 - So here we have the word "July"... 1508 01:06:57,867 --> 01:07:00,533 - Mm-hmm. - In the journal, 1509 01:07:00,667 --> 01:07:03,967 and just note the formation of the uppercase J. 1510 01:07:04,100 --> 01:07:05,333 - Uh-huh. 1511 01:07:05,467 --> 01:07:08,800 - Here in the word "July," look at the formation 1512 01:07:08,934 --> 01:07:11,567 of the J compared to the known writing... 1513 01:07:11,700 --> 01:07:13,834 - Mm-hmm. - And the questioned. 1514 01:07:13,967 --> 01:07:17,834 - So already, again, I see a deliberate contrast in strokes 1515 01:07:17,967 --> 01:07:22,800 that they start to pop as different handwriting styles. 1516 01:07:22,934 --> 01:07:26,633 - And what we're looking for is a pattern of writing, 1517 01:07:26,767 --> 01:07:30,166 and when Easley creates this drag stroke-- 1518 01:07:30,300 --> 01:07:32,533 - "Being," yeah. - "Being," it's a long, 1519 01:07:32,667 --> 01:07:35,800 exaggerated drag stroke. 1520 01:07:35,934 --> 01:07:37,100 Fishburne: Major Edwin Easley 1521 01:07:37,233 --> 01:07:39,000 was in charge of base security. 1522 01:07:39,133 --> 01:07:41,700 He would've been responsible for safeguarding the debris 1523 01:07:41,834 --> 01:07:44,367 and controlling which personnel had access to it. 1524 01:07:44,500 --> 01:07:46,467 ♪ ♪ 1525 01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:48,300 - And you see that again. You see that repeated 1526 01:07:48,433 --> 01:07:51,433 throughout the known writing, whereas in the journal, 1527 01:07:51,567 --> 01:07:55,800 you just have the I-dot above the letter, 1528 01:07:55,934 --> 01:07:58,033 so you do have some dissimilarities 1529 01:07:58,166 --> 01:08:00,266 in this writing sample, as well. 1530 01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:04,133 - Shoot. Well, that leaves us Patrick Saunders. 1531 01:08:04,266 --> 01:08:06,100 Fishburne: Patrick Saunders was Colonel Blanchard's 1532 01:08:06,233 --> 01:08:09,367 number two, his top deputy. 1533 01:08:09,500 --> 01:08:11,266 He would've been in the room when Jesse Marcel 1534 01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:12,900 returned from the debris field 1535 01:08:13,033 --> 01:08:16,066 to brief the commander. 1536 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,266 - There are some words and letter combinations 1537 01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,200 I do see in agreement, 1538 01:08:20,333 --> 01:08:22,033 so one of the words in common between the question 1539 01:08:22,166 --> 01:08:24,233 and the known is the word "anything." 1540 01:08:24,367 --> 01:08:27,200 And if you look at the writing in the journal... 1541 01:08:27,333 --> 01:08:28,633 - Right. - There is a pen lift 1542 01:08:28,767 --> 01:08:31,700 after the Y, in between the Y and the T, 1543 01:08:31,834 --> 01:08:33,867 and you see that again here. 1544 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,767 - Right. - The Y terminates and then-- 1545 01:08:36,900 --> 01:08:39,800 - That's pretty distinctive. - The same thing here, 1546 01:08:39,934 --> 01:08:42,200 and in the known writing-- - Wow! 1547 01:08:42,333 --> 01:08:44,633 - We do see that combination, as well, 1548 01:08:44,767 --> 01:08:46,934 where that pen lifts between the Y and the T. 1549 01:08:47,066 --> 01:08:48,266 - Yeah. - I would describe that 1550 01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:50,066 as more of a general characteristic. 1551 01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:51,967 - Okay. - But right now, 1552 01:08:52,100 --> 01:08:53,600 it is a similarity. - Huh. 1553 01:08:53,734 --> 01:08:55,567 ♪ ♪ 1554 01:08:55,700 --> 01:08:57,734 - Also, when you look at the letter formations, 1555 01:08:57,867 --> 01:09:02,900 the termination of the Y in all three "anythings" 1556 01:09:03,033 --> 01:09:04,867 in the journal terminates downward. 1557 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,967 There is no upward-move formation. 1558 01:09:08,100 --> 01:09:10,467 It terminates downward. 1559 01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,633 If you look at the height ratios between the T and the H, 1560 01:09:13,767 --> 01:09:17,000 here you see the H is much taller than the T, 1561 01:09:17,133 --> 01:09:18,800 and you see that throughout the questions. 1562 01:09:18,934 --> 01:09:21,367 The H and the T, 1563 01:09:21,500 --> 01:09:23,600 and you also see that the H in the known's 1564 01:09:23,734 --> 01:09:27,700 is also taller than the T. - Okay. 1565 01:09:27,834 --> 01:09:29,967 - So do you see enough then to exclude this 1566 01:09:30,100 --> 01:09:34,000 as a candidate, or is it still a viable option? 1567 01:09:34,133 --> 01:09:38,066 - I don't see enough right now to exclude this person 1568 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:39,467 as a candidate. 1569 01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:41,300 Of all the samples, 1570 01:09:41,433 --> 01:09:45,133 with the Pat Saunders one, there's potential. 1571 01:09:45,266 --> 01:09:48,000 - This man is at the nexus of all the secrets. 1572 01:09:48,133 --> 01:09:50,667 Because Patrick Saunders would've touched 1573 01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,633 every document, overhead every phone call, 1574 01:09:53,767 --> 01:09:56,233 would've seen everything Colonel Blanchard's seen, 1575 01:09:56,367 --> 01:09:59,033 and if he is the author of the journal, 1576 01:09:59,166 --> 01:10:00,834 then I really think we're onto something. 1577 01:10:00,967 --> 01:10:03,667 ♪ ♪ 1578 01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:05,333 Fishburne: Coming up, 1579 01:10:05,467 --> 01:10:08,033 did Patrick Saunders organize a cover-up? 1580 01:10:08,166 --> 01:10:11,433 - He just mentioned that he changed the serial numbers, 1581 01:10:11,567 --> 01:10:13,867 and he destroyed files about it. 1582 01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:15,600 - Really? 1583 01:10:15,734 --> 01:10:17,700 Fishburne: What did he tell his family about Roswell? 1584 01:10:17,834 --> 01:10:19,166 - Do you think he was protecting you 1585 01:10:19,300 --> 01:10:22,834 from the secrets that he knew? - Absolutely. 1586 01:10:22,967 --> 01:10:27,100 ♪ ♪ 1587 01:10:30,467 --> 01:10:33,333 tic music] 1588 01:10:33,467 --> 01:10:37,934 ♪ ♪ 1589 01:10:38,066 --> 01:10:39,967 Fishburne: He was the base commander's number two, 1590 01:10:40,100 --> 01:10:41,667 his right-hand man, 1591 01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,900 but who is Patrick Saunders? 1592 01:10:45,033 --> 01:10:47,467 What was his role in the Roswell incident? 1593 01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:50,767 What did he believe? And if he wrote the journal 1594 01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:53,900 Jesse Marcel kept close for decades, 1595 01:10:54,033 --> 01:10:57,467 what secrets did the two men share? 1596 01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:58,900 Investigator Ben Smith 1597 01:10:59,033 --> 01:11:02,867 has tracked down two of Saunders' five children. 1598 01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:04,900 - So you were three years old in 1947, 1599 01:11:05,033 --> 01:11:07,200 and you were living in Roswell at the time? 1600 01:11:07,333 --> 01:11:11,467 - Yes. We were living in Roswell on base. 1601 01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:13,367 - On base? - Yes. 1602 01:11:13,500 --> 01:11:17,900 We lived there until about 1950. 1603 01:11:18,033 --> 01:11:19,400 ♪ ♪ 1604 01:11:19,533 --> 01:11:22,700 - And can you tell me a little bit about your father? 1605 01:11:22,834 --> 01:11:26,700 - Well, my dad was a very proud officer. 1606 01:11:26,834 --> 01:11:32,533 He was a very personable man, and while he could be serious, 1607 01:11:32,667 --> 01:11:36,166 he could also be lots of fun to be with. 1608 01:11:36,300 --> 01:11:37,934 - Can you tell me a little bit about his role 1609 01:11:38,066 --> 01:11:40,300 at Roswell Army Air Force Base? 1610 01:11:40,433 --> 01:11:44,834 - He was in charge of assigning the troops 1611 01:11:44,967 --> 01:11:49,967 to the cleanup effort at the crash site. 1612 01:11:50,100 --> 01:11:51,834 - He was involved in the first meeting 1613 01:11:51,967 --> 01:11:57,133 they had after the crash with Colonel Blanchard. 1614 01:11:57,266 --> 01:11:59,500 - And what was your reaction when you first found out 1615 01:11:59,633 --> 01:12:01,266 about your dad's role 1616 01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:05,934 at the Roswell Army Air Force Base at this time? 1617 01:12:06,066 --> 01:12:10,100 - You know, I wasn't even born when it happened. 1618 01:12:10,233 --> 01:12:14,066 Years later, I hear my sisters asking him questions 1619 01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:15,633 and things like that, 1620 01:12:15,767 --> 01:12:19,433 but I just thought everybody's dad was cool like that. 1621 01:12:19,567 --> 01:12:22,567 [both laugh] 1622 01:12:23,767 --> 01:12:25,266 ♪ ♪ 1623 01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,233 - Do you know if he ever saw or handled the debris 1624 01:12:28,367 --> 01:12:30,400 or any intelligence reports 1625 01:12:30,533 --> 01:12:33,066 about descriptions of the debris? 1626 01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:37,767 - He said he knew it wasn't a weather balloon. 1627 01:12:37,900 --> 01:12:39,100 - So your father said 1628 01:12:39,233 --> 01:12:40,800 it was definitely not a weather balloon? 1629 01:12:40,934 --> 01:12:43,600 - Absolutely. That's one of the things I remember him 1630 01:12:43,734 --> 01:12:45,867 telling me more than once 1631 01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:47,633 and that he knew about weather balloons 1632 01:12:47,767 --> 01:12:52,433 because he dealt with them with spying over Russia. 1633 01:12:52,567 --> 01:12:56,000 He did tell me that the debris helped to develop 1634 01:12:56,133 --> 01:12:58,266 the stealth jet fighter 1635 01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:00,166 and that there was a similarity 1636 01:13:00,300 --> 01:13:01,600 between the jet fighter 1637 01:13:01,734 --> 01:13:04,600 and the thing that crashed at Roswell. 1638 01:13:04,734 --> 01:13:06,166 - That is fascinating. 1639 01:13:06,300 --> 01:13:08,967 ♪ ♪ 1640 01:13:09,100 --> 01:13:10,333 Fishburne: Patrick Saunders' daughter 1641 01:13:10,467 --> 01:13:12,567 says her father gave her a well-known book 1642 01:13:12,700 --> 01:13:14,934 about the Roswell incident 1643 01:13:15,066 --> 01:13:17,467 and wrote comments in the margins. 1644 01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:19,867 - He wrote down page numbers, 1645 01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:21,800 and then he highlighted sentences 1646 01:13:21,934 --> 01:13:25,266 that he thought were very important. 1647 01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:29,567 On page 142, he highlighted, "Patrick Saunders was a major 1648 01:13:29,700 --> 01:13:31,734 "and assigned as the base adjutant. 1649 01:13:31,867 --> 01:13:35,166 "His job would've required him accomplish paperwork 1650 01:13:35,300 --> 01:13:37,667 "surrounding the assigning of the troops 1651 01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:39,633 to clean up the debris." 1652 01:13:39,767 --> 01:13:40,834 - Did he ever share any names 1653 01:13:40,967 --> 01:13:42,600 about who might have cleaned it up? 1654 01:13:42,734 --> 01:13:46,967 - No. He just mentioned that he changed the serial numbers, 1655 01:13:47,100 --> 01:13:52,200 and he changed files or destroyed files about it. 1656 01:13:52,333 --> 01:13:54,333 - Really? - Mm-hmm. 1657 01:13:54,467 --> 01:13:57,800 - So your father, in some ways, was involved then 1658 01:13:57,934 --> 01:13:59,400 with the cover-up-- - Yes. 1659 01:13:59,533 --> 01:14:01,200 - And changing the serial numbers of the soldiers-- 1660 01:14:01,333 --> 01:14:03,166 - Of the men who cleaned up the debris. 1661 01:14:03,300 --> 01:14:06,500 - Wow. And he also destroyed files. 1662 01:14:06,633 --> 01:14:08,767 - Mm-hmm. - Huh. 1663 01:14:08,900 --> 01:14:10,600 - Or changed them. 1664 01:14:10,734 --> 01:14:13,500 ♪ ♪ 1665 01:14:13,633 --> 01:14:17,300 - A key figure to the whole question: Jesse Marcel Sr. 1666 01:14:17,433 --> 01:14:18,767 did confirm there was a cover-up, 1667 01:14:18,900 --> 01:14:20,700 that he was not holding the actual debris 1668 01:14:20,834 --> 01:14:23,967 in the original press photo. 1669 01:14:24,100 --> 01:14:26,667 - Yes. He was concerned about Major Marcel 1670 01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:28,900 and the things that he was saying. 1671 01:14:29,033 --> 01:14:31,467 He didn't say he shouldn't have said them. 1672 01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:33,834 He just showed-- 1673 01:14:33,967 --> 01:14:37,100 voiced concern about talking about these things. 1674 01:14:37,233 --> 01:14:39,667 ♪ ♪ 1675 01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,066 - You know, Jesse Marcel 1676 01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:44,200 seemed a little bit distraught 1677 01:14:44,333 --> 01:14:46,400 by the fact that he had to retain this secret 1678 01:14:46,533 --> 01:14:49,867 and lie to the public for the good of his country, 1679 01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:51,400 what he believed was important 1680 01:14:51,533 --> 01:14:53,166 to national security. 1681 01:14:53,300 --> 01:14:56,433 Did you ever get a sense that your father was disturbed 1682 01:14:56,567 --> 01:14:58,400 by the official government line 1683 01:14:58,533 --> 01:15:01,567 about what was recovered there? 1684 01:15:01,700 --> 01:15:03,367 - I think it was hard for him 1685 01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:06,900 to keep the secrets that he knew. 1686 01:15:07,033 --> 01:15:09,433 Even if other people were talking about them 1687 01:15:09,567 --> 01:15:11,533 and writing books about it, 1688 01:15:11,667 --> 01:15:14,500 I think he struggled with that. 1689 01:15:14,633 --> 01:15:19,867 - He took his role as officer in the Air Force 1690 01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,233 and ensuring national security-- 1691 01:15:22,367 --> 01:15:24,033 he took that very seriously. 1692 01:15:24,166 --> 01:15:25,767 ♪ ♪ 1693 01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:29,166 So, yeah, he did what he had to do 1694 01:15:29,300 --> 01:15:35,166 and was instructed to do and made no apologies. 1695 01:15:35,300 --> 01:15:38,400 ♪ ♪ 1696 01:15:38,533 --> 01:15:41,100 - You know, we were warned not to talk about Roswell 1697 01:15:41,233 --> 01:15:44,100 outside the family, 1698 01:15:44,233 --> 01:15:48,767 and we generally didn't talk about it. 1699 01:15:48,900 --> 01:15:50,567 This is the first time 1700 01:15:50,700 --> 01:15:54,967 I've really talked to people about what he said. 1701 01:15:55,100 --> 01:15:57,133 - Some of the threats that others have described 1702 01:15:57,266 --> 01:15:59,300 were pretty intimidating, 1703 01:15:59,433 --> 01:16:01,033 right, threats to your career, 1704 01:16:01,166 --> 01:16:02,633 threats to your safety, 1705 01:16:02,767 --> 01:16:04,934 threats to your legacy and perhaps even-- 1706 01:16:05,066 --> 01:16:10,333 - Your entire family, your entire family was at risk. 1707 01:16:10,467 --> 01:16:12,133 - So do you think he was protecting you 1708 01:16:12,266 --> 01:16:15,166 from the secrets that he knew? 1709 01:16:15,300 --> 01:16:16,633 - Absolutely. 1710 01:16:16,767 --> 01:16:18,900 ♪ ♪ 1711 01:16:19,033 --> 01:16:21,967 - He said that the world wasn't ready to know the truth 1712 01:16:22,100 --> 01:16:24,633 about what happened at Roswell, 1713 01:16:24,767 --> 01:16:27,700 and I asked him what he meant by that, and he said, 1714 01:16:27,834 --> 01:16:31,967 "Well, it would cause social upheaval and problems." 1715 01:16:32,100 --> 01:16:33,700 - Why? - They weren't sure 1716 01:16:33,834 --> 01:16:38,767 whether the beings were friendly or not. 1717 01:16:38,900 --> 01:16:40,533 Fishburne: By the term "beings," 1718 01:16:40,667 --> 01:16:41,967 she said she understood her dad 1719 01:16:42,100 --> 01:16:44,500 was referring to extraterrestrials, 1720 01:16:44,633 --> 01:16:47,033 the aliens who had sent the spaceship 1721 01:16:47,166 --> 01:16:50,000 that crashed at Roswell to Earth. 1722 01:16:50,133 --> 01:16:51,533 - Knowing your dad, 1723 01:16:51,667 --> 01:16:56,500 what do you think happened at Roswell in 1947? 1724 01:16:56,633 --> 01:17:01,834 - Knowing my dad, if it was nothing or a weather balloon, 1725 01:17:01,967 --> 01:17:06,800 he would've just said what it was, and let's move on. 1726 01:17:06,934 --> 01:17:08,867 - Do you feel like he had answers 1727 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:11,333 to who these possible beings were, 1728 01:17:11,467 --> 01:17:14,367 where they came from and what they wanted? 1729 01:17:14,500 --> 01:17:17,266 - I think he was full of questions about them. 1730 01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:19,266 ♪ ♪ 1731 01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,233 I don't think he had come up with all the answers 1732 01:17:22,367 --> 01:17:25,000 about what they found at Roswell. 1733 01:17:25,133 --> 01:17:30,567 ♪ ♪ 1734 01:17:30,700 --> 01:17:34,066 Fishburne: Coming up, how close has Ben Smith come 1735 01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:35,600 to unlocking the secrets 1736 01:17:35,734 --> 01:17:38,200 of what really happened at Roswell? 1737 01:17:38,333 --> 01:17:45,800 ♪ ♪ 1738 01:17:45,934 --> 01:17:48,800 [dramatic music] 1739 01:17:48,934 --> 01:17:55,900 ♪ ♪ 1740 01:17:57,467 --> 01:17:59,567 - I think a guy by the name of Patrick Saunders 1741 01:17:59,700 --> 01:18:00,767 could've written this journal. 1742 01:18:00,900 --> 01:18:02,266 - Wow. - That actually got me 1743 01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:04,166 pretty excited. - That is interesting 1744 01:18:04,300 --> 01:18:05,934 because it's a whole new person 1745 01:18:06,066 --> 01:18:07,734 to take a very close look at. 1746 01:18:07,867 --> 01:18:10,300 That opens up a whole other sort of avenue, doesn't it? 1747 01:18:10,433 --> 01:18:11,934 - It really does. 1748 01:18:12,066 --> 01:18:12,967 Fishburne: The real possibility 1749 01:18:13,100 --> 01:18:14,567 that one of Jesse Marcel's 1750 01:18:14,700 --> 01:18:17,633 fellow officers in the 509th, Patrick Saunders, 1751 01:18:17,767 --> 01:18:20,800 wrote the journal that was in Marcel's possession 1752 01:18:20,934 --> 01:18:24,834 is an incredible twist in Ben Smith's investigation 1753 01:18:24,967 --> 01:18:26,967 of what happened at Roswell. 1754 01:18:27,100 --> 01:18:29,800 Now Smith wants to go over the results 1755 01:18:29,934 --> 01:18:32,567 of his investigation with Joe Pappalardo, 1756 01:18:32,700 --> 01:18:34,033 the veteran aviation journalist 1757 01:18:34,166 --> 01:18:36,967 he has been consulting with from the start. 1758 01:18:37,100 --> 01:18:39,433 - No explanation is going to be complete 1759 01:18:39,567 --> 01:18:41,734 without a physical component, probably. 1760 01:18:41,867 --> 01:18:43,433 Please tell me you found a spaceship. 1761 01:18:43,567 --> 01:18:45,433 - Oh, dude, I wish I could tell you 1762 01:18:45,567 --> 01:18:47,400 that I came back with the smoking gun 1763 01:18:47,533 --> 01:18:49,600 to prove that it's definitely a Mogul balloon 1764 01:18:49,734 --> 01:18:53,100 or it's definitely an extraterrestrial spacecraft. 1765 01:18:53,233 --> 01:18:55,934 I haven't found anything definitive either way, 1766 01:18:56,066 --> 01:18:58,333 and that is frustrating. 1767 01:18:58,467 --> 01:19:00,400 - Well, if it was easy, it would be cracked by now, 1768 01:19:00,533 --> 01:19:04,700 so I'm eager to hear what you actually have uncovered. 1769 01:19:04,834 --> 01:19:06,333 - Chuck Wade claimed that he had a piece 1770 01:19:06,467 --> 01:19:08,467 of alien spacecraft. 1771 01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:11,567 The lab unfortunately could not find anything 1772 01:19:11,700 --> 01:19:13,533 extraterrestrial about the metal. 1773 01:19:13,667 --> 01:19:15,066 For me, it doesn't really impact 1774 01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:16,500 the Roswell question either way. 1775 01:19:16,633 --> 01:19:18,633 It was collected on the Plains of San Agustin 1776 01:19:18,767 --> 01:19:21,533 some distance away, except that it's a knock 1777 01:19:21,667 --> 01:19:25,066 against the established evidence of ufologists. 1778 01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:27,033 - So in terms of the probable crash site, 1779 01:19:27,166 --> 01:19:29,967 I knew you were gonna bring some pretty cool technology 1780 01:19:30,100 --> 01:19:31,433 to investigate that. 1781 01:19:31,567 --> 01:19:32,767 Did you find anything that would lead you 1782 01:19:32,900 --> 01:19:34,500 to think that something happened there? 1783 01:19:34,633 --> 01:19:36,834 - We found a pretty strange magnetic signature 1784 01:19:36,967 --> 01:19:38,400 close to what would've been described 1785 01:19:38,533 --> 01:19:40,967 as the impact identified by witness accounts. 1786 01:19:41,100 --> 01:19:45,300 We took some soil samples, but we couldn't actually find 1787 01:19:45,433 --> 01:19:48,467 when or why this anomaly was created. 1788 01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,867 We haven't found any evidence that definitively proves 1789 01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:54,000 something extraterrestrial crashed here. 1790 01:19:54,133 --> 01:19:56,800 - Did you find anything that would indicate 1791 01:19:56,934 --> 01:19:58,500 that something else crashed? 1792 01:19:58,633 --> 01:20:01,400 - To the south of the established debris field, 1793 01:20:01,533 --> 01:20:03,367 the FAA crash-site investigator 1794 01:20:03,500 --> 01:20:06,433 found a strange contrast in data, 1795 01:20:06,567 --> 01:20:08,166 that we don't know what it means. 1796 01:20:08,300 --> 01:20:09,834 It's not metal because our magnetometer 1797 01:20:09,967 --> 01:20:12,133 didn't pick up any metal. 1798 01:20:12,266 --> 01:20:13,600 There might be something 1799 01:20:13,734 --> 01:20:16,900 that could be some kind of plastic or neoprene layer. 1800 01:20:17,033 --> 01:20:20,133 - That would buttress that argument 1801 01:20:20,266 --> 01:20:21,467 that a balloon crashed there, 1802 01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:23,500 and here is an actual physical remain from it. 1803 01:20:23,633 --> 01:20:25,834 That would be about as close to a smoking gun 1804 01:20:25,967 --> 01:20:27,533 as something who doesn't believe in UFOs, 1805 01:20:27,667 --> 01:20:30,367 like myself, would cling to desperately, probably. 1806 01:20:30,500 --> 01:20:34,633 - Yeah. Well, a lot of the facts are fuzzy still, 1807 01:20:34,767 --> 01:20:38,000 and I'm still trying to piece the puzzle together, 1808 01:20:38,133 --> 01:20:40,133 but I feel confident that the government lied 1809 01:20:40,266 --> 01:20:41,467 to the American people 1810 01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:43,533 about what it collected at that debris field. 1811 01:20:43,667 --> 01:20:47,667 There were others like Jesse in that unit at the 509th group 1812 01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:49,266 who had some of the same ideas. 1813 01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:52,700 I've spent a lot of time now with the Marcel family, 1814 01:20:52,834 --> 01:20:54,266 and I think at the very least, 1815 01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:56,233 what they wanted was vindication. 1816 01:20:56,367 --> 01:20:58,166 ♪ ♪ 1817 01:20:58,300 --> 01:21:00,066 Fishburne: Jesse Marcel's three grandchildren 1818 01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:02,400 have been eagerly awaiting the results 1819 01:21:02,533 --> 01:21:04,033 of Ben Smith's investigation 1820 01:21:04,166 --> 01:21:06,533 and want to know what he has found out 1821 01:21:06,667 --> 01:21:08,934 about the strange journal. 1822 01:21:09,066 --> 01:21:10,367 - Thank you, guys, for making 1823 01:21:10,500 --> 01:21:12,300 yourselves available to chat with me. 1824 01:21:12,433 --> 01:21:13,700 I wanted to circle back with you 1825 01:21:13,834 --> 01:21:16,066 and share some interesting turns in the case 1826 01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:18,767 and some unexpected surprises. 1827 01:21:18,900 --> 01:21:20,367 There's one thing that's still missing 1828 01:21:20,500 --> 01:21:22,266 from this investigation, and that's evidence. 1829 01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:25,233 - I mean, there's a piece out there somewhere. 1830 01:21:25,367 --> 01:21:26,633 - Well, we didn't find anything yet. 1831 01:21:26,767 --> 01:21:27,967 - Sure. - Jesse, you were there 1832 01:21:28,100 --> 01:21:29,166 with me in Pennsylvania 1833 01:21:29,300 --> 01:21:31,400 when we went to the codebreaker. 1834 01:21:31,533 --> 01:21:34,533 Without the key, the other half of the puzzle, 1835 01:21:34,667 --> 01:21:36,867 we can't crack that home-brew code, 1836 01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:41,734 so what's left is to keep looking for that other half, 1837 01:21:41,867 --> 01:21:44,300 but that makes an interesting challenge 1838 01:21:44,433 --> 01:21:47,400 because we didn't know who wrote it. 1839 01:21:47,533 --> 01:21:50,400 I refocused my efforts back on the inner circle 1840 01:21:50,533 --> 01:21:53,300 at the 509th group to see if I could identify 1841 01:21:53,433 --> 01:21:55,834 who might have written the journal. 1842 01:21:55,967 --> 01:21:58,400 I collected a few more handwriting samples. 1843 01:21:58,533 --> 01:22:02,500 There was one individual who actually, 1844 01:22:02,633 --> 01:22:04,934 with the short sample that we had, 1845 01:22:05,066 --> 01:22:08,467 matched to some degree that we couldn't rule it out. 1846 01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,467 - Ooh, interesting. 1847 01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:14,533 - This would've been the base adjutant at the 509th group-- 1848 01:22:14,667 --> 01:22:17,266 - Okay. - The second-in-command, 1849 01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:18,767 a guy named Patrick Saunders. 1850 01:22:18,900 --> 01:22:21,266 He was really close with Colonel Blanchard, 1851 01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:22,967 so close, in fact, 1852 01:22:23,100 --> 01:22:26,000 that Colonel Blanchard was his best man at his wedding. 1853 01:22:26,133 --> 01:22:27,834 - Oh, wow. 1854 01:22:27,967 --> 01:22:29,500 - For me as an intelligence officer, 1855 01:22:29,633 --> 01:22:32,400 if I'm looking for somebody with access to information, 1856 01:22:32,533 --> 01:22:34,100 this guy is as close as it gets. 1857 01:22:34,233 --> 01:22:36,500 - Wow. - That's very exciting. 1858 01:22:38,834 --> 01:22:41,867 - Did your grandfather ever mention that name to you? 1859 01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:44,333 - I don't recall that name coming from him. 1860 01:22:44,467 --> 01:22:47,133 - Obviously, they had a relationship for Grandpa 1861 01:22:47,266 --> 01:22:49,600 to have ended up with that journal. 1862 01:22:49,734 --> 01:22:53,333 - I was able to track down his children. 1863 01:22:53,467 --> 01:22:55,000 A lot of the things Patrick Saunders 1864 01:22:55,133 --> 01:22:58,667 told his children matched what Jesse Sr. 1865 01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:03,033 told you three, that it was something not of this world. 1866 01:23:03,166 --> 01:23:06,367 And there was a cover-up. - No kidding. 1867 01:23:06,500 --> 01:23:09,200 - And he even mentioned that he was directly responsible 1868 01:23:09,333 --> 01:23:14,500 for organizing the cover-up by changing the names 1869 01:23:14,633 --> 01:23:16,066 and the personnel records of people 1870 01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,467 involved in the cleanup effort at the debris field. 1871 01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:20,000 - Oh, my gosh. 1872 01:23:20,133 --> 01:23:22,066 - Another echo in Patrick Saunders' story with his family 1873 01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:26,033 is he said almost the exact same things verbatim: 1874 01:23:26,166 --> 01:23:28,667 "The world isn't ready for this kind of information." 1875 01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:29,900 - Oh, yeah. 1876 01:23:30,033 --> 01:23:31,900 - And, Denice, you were with me in Houma. 1877 01:23:32,033 --> 01:23:33,500 Your cousin mentioned the same thing. 1878 01:23:33,633 --> 01:23:37,734 - Yep, exact same words. - His eyes kind of glazed over, 1879 01:23:37,867 --> 01:23:39,200 and he said, 1880 01:23:39,333 --> 01:23:42,166 "There are things that this world is not ready for." 1881 01:23:42,300 --> 01:23:45,667 - I wonder if they discussed it to come up with almost, 1882 01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:48,000 like, the same terminology. 1883 01:23:48,133 --> 01:23:50,867 This is just so completely amazing. [laughs] 1884 01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:52,400 - I think you're closer to the truth 1885 01:23:52,533 --> 01:23:54,934 now than we've ever been or anybody's ever been. 1886 01:23:55,066 --> 01:23:56,400 - Sounds like it. 1887 01:23:56,533 --> 01:23:59,834 - Another interesting comment Patrick Saunders made 1888 01:23:59,967 --> 01:24:02,800 was actually about Jesse Sr. 1889 01:24:02,934 --> 01:24:05,934 He thought that Jesse had gone too far, 1890 01:24:06,066 --> 01:24:07,500 that he had said something he shouldn't. 1891 01:24:07,633 --> 01:24:09,166 He had told the public too much. 1892 01:24:09,300 --> 01:24:11,834 - When Grandpa came out in 1978 1893 01:24:11,967 --> 01:24:13,867 and told the story about what had happened, 1894 01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:16,633 I wonder if that worried him a little bit 1895 01:24:16,767 --> 01:24:18,066 because I know it would worry me 1896 01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:19,567 if I was trying to keep something covered up, 1897 01:24:19,700 --> 01:24:21,567 and this man just came out and said, 1898 01:24:21,700 --> 01:24:24,600 "No. What everybody saw wasn't something from here." 1899 01:24:24,734 --> 01:24:26,300 - Yeah. The duty to keep quiet 1900 01:24:26,433 --> 01:24:27,967 is a pretty powerful commitment. 1901 01:24:28,100 --> 01:24:30,333 - I think he was courageous for coming out and telling it 1902 01:24:30,467 --> 01:24:32,600 because he was going against the protocol. 1903 01:24:32,734 --> 01:24:34,233 He felt that everybody deserved 1904 01:24:34,367 --> 01:24:35,900 to know what the truth was 1905 01:24:36,033 --> 01:24:38,400 and that the cover-up needed to end. 1906 01:24:38,533 --> 01:24:39,700 - Mm-hmm. 1907 01:24:39,834 --> 01:24:42,533 ♪ ♪ 1908 01:24:42,667 --> 01:24:44,734 You know, we started this journey together 1909 01:24:44,867 --> 01:24:47,500 trying to figure out the journal 1910 01:24:47,633 --> 01:24:49,100 and to prove with evidence 1911 01:24:49,233 --> 01:24:51,133 that your grandfather was telling the truth. 1912 01:24:51,266 --> 01:24:54,767 Now, we didn't quite get to either of those ends. 1913 01:24:54,900 --> 01:24:56,667 How do you feel about this investigation, 1914 01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,233 and what does it tell you about your grandfather? 1915 01:24:59,367 --> 01:25:01,400 - If anything, you've added 1916 01:25:01,533 --> 01:25:03,800 more credibility to those stories, 1917 01:25:03,934 --> 01:25:06,233 and I think we're getting closer than ever 1918 01:25:06,367 --> 01:25:08,166 to resolving this. 1919 01:25:08,300 --> 01:25:09,533 - I'll just echo that. 1920 01:25:09,667 --> 01:25:13,867 I think that everything that you've come across 1921 01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:17,066 has actually more or less confirmed for me 1922 01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:20,333 that Grandpa and our dad were telling us the truth 1923 01:25:20,467 --> 01:25:22,000 and that they did want everybody to know 1924 01:25:22,133 --> 01:25:23,900 what really did happen. 1925 01:25:24,033 --> 01:25:26,133 - I looked at the journal recently, and I found a quote 1926 01:25:26,266 --> 01:25:28,400 that really captures sort of the investigation, 1927 01:25:28,533 --> 01:25:29,834 and the quote was, 1928 01:25:29,967 --> 01:25:32,667 "Keep your eye on the doughnut and not the hole." 1929 01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,600 If we just focus on the lack of evidence, 1930 01:25:35,734 --> 01:25:38,133 the hole in the center, 1931 01:25:38,266 --> 01:25:41,600 we miss all the evidence that we have found. 1932 01:25:41,734 --> 01:25:47,033 I think that this journal has more secrets to give, 1933 01:25:47,166 --> 01:25:51,800 more evidence to point me to than what I've found so far, 1934 01:25:51,934 --> 01:25:54,934 and I'm reluctant to simply put it away. 1935 01:25:55,066 --> 01:26:00,633 ♪ ♪ 1936 01:26:00,767 --> 01:26:02,200 Fishburne: To some, Jesse Marcel 1937 01:26:02,333 --> 01:26:05,000 is a courageous truth sayer. 1938 01:26:05,133 --> 01:26:07,767 To others, a man who let his imagination 1939 01:26:07,900 --> 01:26:09,834 get the best of him. 1940 01:26:09,967 --> 01:26:11,934 Either way, he believed 1941 01:26:12,066 --> 01:26:15,433 he'd witnessed an extraordinary event, 1942 01:26:15,567 --> 01:26:17,667 and he was not alone. 1943 01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:19,767 I'm Laurence Fishburne, 1944 01:26:19,900 --> 01:26:24,433 thank you for watching "History's Greatest Mysteries". 149824

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