Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:11,611 --> 00:00:13,547
- Hello, out there
in television land.
2
00:00:13,614 --> 00:00:16,116
Uh, Dad, stop, we are
running out of batteries.
3
00:00:16,183 --> 00:00:17,518
- All right.
- Tessa, move.
4
00:00:17,584 --> 00:00:19,704
Move. You're gonna be out of the picture.
- All right.
5
00:00:19,953 --> 00:00:23,557
Ah, this is great,
leftover spaghetti. Yum.
6
00:00:23,624 --> 00:00:26,994
I just really,
really miss you
7
00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:29,463
a whole entire bunch.
8
00:00:29,529 --> 00:00:30,797
I miss you.
9
00:00:33,067 --> 00:00:34,611
I always
knew that my Uncle Scott
10
00:00:34,635 --> 00:00:38,405
had died in Australia
when I was a baby,
11
00:00:38,472 --> 00:00:40,774
and I was probably
in middle school
12
00:00:40,841 --> 00:00:45,812
before we started talking about that
Scott had apparently killed himself.
13
00:00:48,315 --> 00:00:52,319
It's really challenging
to watch your father
14
00:00:52,385 --> 00:00:55,055
just have this open wound.
15
00:00:56,256 --> 00:01:00,094
To watch someone in your
family be consumed by grief
16
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,396
and by unanswered questions
for so many years.
17
00:01:04,164 --> 00:01:07,634
It's just this
ever-present ghost.
18
00:01:09,870 --> 00:01:13,574
So, to have that
viewpoint totally shaken
19
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,110
about what might have
happened to my Uncle Scott,
20
00:01:16,176 --> 00:01:18,211
was really jarring.
21
00:01:20,380 --> 00:01:24,919
As soon as I heard, in 2005, about
the similar deaths in Australia,
22
00:01:24,985 --> 00:01:28,756
it seemed really plausible to me
that that is how my uncle had died.
23
00:01:29,490 --> 00:01:33,260
That it had not been suicide,
but it had been a hate crime.
24
00:01:35,062 --> 00:01:38,065
John Allan
Russell, Ross Bradley Warren,
25
00:01:38,131 --> 00:01:39,566
and Gilles Jaques Mattaini
26
00:01:39,633 --> 00:01:42,769
disappeared separately from a
popular gay beat at Tamarama.
27
00:01:42,836 --> 00:01:46,239
Police say the cases have
striking similarities.
28
00:01:46,740 --> 00:01:49,810
I didn't question that it was
possible my uncle had committed suicide
29
00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:54,782
because I think a lot of people have
struggles we know nothing about,
30
00:01:54,848 --> 00:01:56,417
but what really upset me,
31
00:01:56,483 --> 00:01:59,220
when it came to light that my uncle
likely did not die of suicide,
32
00:01:59,286 --> 00:02:02,322
is how easy it was to
dismiss him as a gay man
33
00:02:02,389 --> 00:02:04,191
as having no reason to live.
34
00:02:04,257 --> 00:02:05,692
That was really sad.
35
00:02:05,759 --> 00:02:09,095
The thought that someone with
so much to offer the world
36
00:02:09,162 --> 00:02:11,198
and so many people
who loved him,
37
00:02:11,765 --> 00:02:15,001
obviously, killed himself because
what could he have to live for
38
00:02:15,068 --> 00:02:17,437
is a really sad
way to look at it.
39
00:03:05,653 --> 00:03:10,891
This mystery
about what happened to my brother
40
00:03:10,957 --> 00:03:14,160
was suddenly clear.
41
00:03:16,229 --> 00:03:20,267
This mystery... that had
hung over the family.
42
00:03:22,236 --> 00:03:24,872
I didn't even realize
how emotional I was
43
00:03:24,938 --> 00:03:28,642
with this bottled-up question
mark until I read these articles
44
00:03:28,709 --> 00:03:33,079
and could see that there was
a lot of work to be done.
45
00:03:37,050 --> 00:03:42,455
On my daughter Emma's spring
break, 2006, we went to Sydney.
46
00:03:45,091 --> 00:03:48,495
I was 17. I was a
senior in high school.
47
00:03:50,230 --> 00:03:51,665
My dad and I were very close,
48
00:03:51,732 --> 00:03:55,168
and I wanted to be there
for him and support him,
49
00:03:55,235 --> 00:03:58,138
like he needed
someone on his team.
50
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,042
Also, I just wanted
to know answers.
51
00:04:02,108 --> 00:04:07,147
I was, I was really invested
in finding out more, um.
52
00:04:07,214 --> 00:04:10,116
It seemed clear to me that
there was a lot we didn't know.
53
00:04:11,218 --> 00:04:14,988
We visited the spot where
my Uncle Scott died.
54
00:04:15,555 --> 00:04:19,693
That part of the trip was
very powerful and moving.
55
00:04:21,361 --> 00:04:24,331
It just felt like the
start, an important start.
56
00:04:28,802 --> 00:04:30,904
We arrived in Manly.
57
00:04:30,971 --> 00:04:35,609
Where the ferry leaves you off, you
can see the cliff where Scott died.
58
00:04:37,044 --> 00:04:39,847
And we marched into
the police station
59
00:04:39,913 --> 00:04:44,718
and we sit down
with a detective.
60
00:04:44,785 --> 00:04:47,654
We explained all the
details of Scott's death,
61
00:04:47,721 --> 00:04:50,457
and he said, "We'll get
to the bottom of this."
62
00:04:50,524 --> 00:04:55,463
When we left, I-I-I felt like we'd
finally get some action and some answers.
63
00:04:55,830 --> 00:05:00,634
I came back from Australia thinking that
Scott's case was finally in good hands.
64
00:05:01,168 --> 00:05:03,771
A detective was working on it.
65
00:05:03,837 --> 00:05:06,907
And every couple of months, I'd send
an email, "How are things going?"
66
00:05:06,974 --> 00:05:09,877
And I'd get an email back, "We're
still looking for Scott's file."
67
00:05:09,943 --> 00:05:13,580
And then he finally ended up
sending me an email that said
68
00:05:13,647 --> 00:05:18,218
his belongings seem to
have all been destroyed.
69
00:05:18,919 --> 00:05:22,122
"All the evidence is
gone. Sorry, mate."
70
00:05:24,124 --> 00:05:28,762
I start to realize that the police
aren't interested in working on this,
71
00:05:28,829 --> 00:05:31,931
that I was gonna have
to somehow go it alone
72
00:05:31,998 --> 00:05:36,002
and get proof that'll light
a fire under the police.
73
00:05:38,071 --> 00:05:42,509
And in 2007, a mutual
friend introduced me to,
74
00:05:42,576 --> 00:05:46,046
uh, an investigative
journalist named Dan Glick.
75
00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:52,219
Dan was this very
sharp journalist
76
00:05:52,285 --> 00:05:54,721
who was really the face of
the JonBenét Ramsey case.
77
00:05:54,788 --> 00:05:58,125
Tonight, five months
after the killing of JonBenét Ramsey,
78
00:05:58,191 --> 00:06:00,227
there's still no
arrest in sight.
79
00:06:00,294 --> 00:06:02,629
Joining us tonight to discuss
the latest in the case,
80
00:06:02,696 --> 00:06:05,966
Dan Glick, special correspondent
for Newsweek magazine.
81
00:06:06,033 --> 00:06:08,702
I had been a
journalist for a long, long time
82
00:06:08,768 --> 00:06:12,606
and I can't say that I specialized
investigative journalism.
83
00:06:12,672 --> 00:06:15,476
I had covered a lot of different
kinds of things and among them
84
00:06:15,542 --> 00:06:18,078
was the murder of
JonBenét Ramsey
85
00:06:18,145 --> 00:06:21,815
that happened 7.3 miles
from where I live.
86
00:06:21,882 --> 00:06:23,650
- What made the cops
think that, Dan?
87
00:06:23,717 --> 00:06:26,787
It was in the
news for over a year.
88
00:06:26,853 --> 00:06:29,423
So, equally intricate case.
89
00:06:29,489 --> 00:06:32,893
- I said, "You want me to
look into a 18-year-old
90
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,062
"maybe gay murder in Australia?
91
00:06:35,129 --> 00:06:39,867
I mean, how in the world do you think
I'm gonna do anything productive?"
92
00:06:39,933 --> 00:06:43,670
And he said, "Well, just take a look
at some of the documents Steve has
93
00:06:43,737 --> 00:06:46,874
and he'd be willing to pay ya to go
down there and take a look around."
94
00:06:46,940 --> 00:06:52,079
And so I got some of the documents
and I thought I saw a couple angles,
95
00:06:52,146 --> 00:06:55,615
and, um, agreed to meet Steve.
96
00:06:57,484 --> 00:07:01,755
We finally found a chance
to meet in Boulder, Colorado.
97
00:07:03,357 --> 00:07:06,693
- Steve showed up
driven by a driver,
98
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,029
and it wasn't a, a white
stretch limo or anything,
99
00:07:09,096 --> 00:07:10,897
but it was, uh, you
know, a town car.
100
00:07:10,964 --> 00:07:13,867
I met him and his daughter Emma.
101
00:07:14,501 --> 00:07:16,303
He wasn't ostentatious at all.
102
00:07:16,370 --> 00:07:18,339
I knew he was, uh, a wealthy guy
103
00:07:18,405 --> 00:07:22,809
and he had made it clear that money
was no object in this pursuit.
104
00:07:23,443 --> 00:07:26,280
He was really nice and
thoughtful and passionate,
105
00:07:26,347 --> 00:07:29,482
and there was a real sweetness
between the two of them.
106
00:07:32,286 --> 00:07:36,022
So, this phantom uncle
started emerging,
107
00:07:36,991 --> 00:07:38,625
this ghost of Scott Johnson,
108
00:07:38,692 --> 00:07:41,461
and it started striking me
right from the beginning
109
00:07:41,528 --> 00:07:45,099
what a powerful force this
was in, in this family,
110
00:07:45,165 --> 00:07:48,235
not just for Steve, but
for his children, his wife,
111
00:07:48,302 --> 00:07:50,471
and, you know, obviously,
other siblings.
112
00:07:50,538 --> 00:07:54,642
And I told Steve there were a
few things I knew I could do,
113
00:07:54,708 --> 00:07:57,577
but that I didn't have
a lot of high hopes.
114
00:07:58,979 --> 00:08:00,915
Basically said, "Listen,
if I find out that
115
00:08:00,981 --> 00:08:04,084
"I think your brother committed
suicide, I'm gonna let ya know that.
116
00:08:04,151 --> 00:08:06,453
"And if I think
Scott was murdered,
117
00:08:06,519 --> 00:08:09,055
I'll, I'll pursue him as
if he was my own brother."
118
00:08:09,122 --> 00:08:11,992
- I wanted him to be
totally honest with me.
119
00:08:12,059 --> 00:08:13,299
I wanted to find out the truth.
120
00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,762
- I didn't know Scott,
I didn't know Steve.
121
00:08:15,829 --> 00:08:19,366
I had no reason to believe Scott
had or hadn't committed suicide
122
00:08:19,432 --> 00:08:22,035
going, going into this,
so I went into it,
123
00:08:22,102 --> 00:08:24,804
I think, with a
completely open mind.
124
00:08:28,108 --> 00:08:30,577
I had gotten to
be really good friends
125
00:08:30,644 --> 00:08:35,782
with Colorado's probably most storied
homicide investigator, Lou Schmidt.
126
00:08:35,849 --> 00:08:39,319
I asked him if he would walk me through
how you do a cold case investigation
127
00:08:39,386 --> 00:08:42,122
'cause he was, you know,
one of the best at it.
128
00:08:42,188 --> 00:08:44,458
He gave me some really
great pieces of advice,
129
00:08:44,525 --> 00:08:48,728
and one of 'em was, "Sometimes
you just have to stir the pot."
130
00:08:51,498 --> 00:08:57,504
- Dan got on a plane in May
of 2007 and flew to Sydney.
131
00:08:59,707 --> 00:09:03,110
I actually remember having a
conversation with an Australian woman
132
00:09:03,177 --> 00:09:05,145
who was sitting next
to me on the plane,
133
00:09:05,212 --> 00:09:06,913
you know, just why I
was goin' down there.
134
00:09:06,980 --> 00:09:08,340
And she said, "Oh,
oh, you should,
135
00:09:08,382 --> 00:09:10,422
you should contact my cousin,
my brother, somebody."
136
00:09:10,451 --> 00:09:13,987
I mean, so I had a really
good sense from the beginning
137
00:09:14,054 --> 00:09:15,889
that people were
interested in this.
138
00:09:22,162 --> 00:09:25,099
- A U.S. journalist from
Middle America somewhere
139
00:09:25,166 --> 00:09:27,902
wandering into Sydney,
good luck with that.
140
00:09:27,968 --> 00:09:29,569
I met him only a few times.
141
00:09:29,636 --> 00:09:32,439
Uh, gave him a bit of guidance
on a few bits and pieces,
142
00:09:32,505 --> 00:09:35,075
as Dan didn't quite
understand how Sydney worked.
143
00:09:35,142 --> 00:09:37,044
So, part of our
early conversations
144
00:09:37,111 --> 00:09:39,346
was to sort of set the
scene for the play.
145
00:09:41,882 --> 00:09:46,053
Manly, where Scott died, was a
short ferry ride from the city
146
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,621
across the harbor
through the Heads,
147
00:09:47,688 --> 00:09:50,490
one of the most beautiful trips
you can ever have in the world.
148
00:09:55,128 --> 00:09:58,331
It's the gateway to what we, as kids,
and 'cause I grew up out that way,
149
00:09:58,398 --> 00:10:02,369
we call the "Insular Peninsula"
for pretty good reason.
150
00:10:02,436 --> 00:10:05,906
You know, swaying palm
trees, sea breezes,
151
00:10:05,972 --> 00:10:07,474
barbecue in the backyard,
152
00:10:07,541 --> 00:10:10,010
wander across the road to the
beach, have a surf, wander back,
153
00:10:10,077 --> 00:10:11,879
the perfect
Australian childhood.
154
00:10:12,580 --> 00:10:15,349
So, that's why it attracted
a lot of families.
155
00:10:15,416 --> 00:10:19,486
They didn't travel very much.
They had everything they wanted.
156
00:10:21,855 --> 00:10:24,758
As you can see, we're coming
up Sydney Road into Manly,
157
00:10:24,825 --> 00:10:26,393
the very imaginatively
named street
158
00:10:26,460 --> 00:10:29,129
that used to take you all
the way from Manly to Sydney.
159
00:10:29,195 --> 00:10:33,934
We're about to make the glorious
right-hand turn towards Manly Wharf.
160
00:10:34,001 --> 00:10:36,469
You can see a
glimpse of the beach.
161
00:10:38,338 --> 00:10:40,841
It was basically a meat
and potatoes existence.
162
00:10:40,908 --> 00:10:44,711
It wasn't a sophisticated lifestyle. It
wasn't a terribly accepting lifestyle.
163
00:10:44,778 --> 00:10:48,783
If you're goin' to be different, the
northern beaches wouldn't be your first pick.
164
00:10:50,217 --> 00:10:54,588
Somehow, it seems to me very much
like it was in the '50s when I was a girl.
165
00:10:54,655 --> 00:10:58,726
It's completely provincial
in Manly for some reason.
166
00:10:58,793 --> 00:11:02,830
It's about the beach, but
it's kind of a macho culture.
167
00:11:02,897 --> 00:11:04,264
It's...
168
00:11:04,331 --> 00:11:07,367
Well, culture's probably the
wrong emphasis altogether.
169
00:11:08,936 --> 00:11:10,380
You
didn't rock the boat.
170
00:11:10,404 --> 00:11:12,105
Back in those days,
if you were gay,
171
00:11:12,172 --> 00:11:14,108
you lived very much in a closet.
172
00:11:14,174 --> 00:11:17,644
Families, workmates,
no one knows.
173
00:11:18,078 --> 00:11:20,780
It's a different mindset
to a lot of Sydney.
174
00:11:22,349 --> 00:11:25,019
- Yeah... I just
don't like them.
175
00:11:25,085 --> 00:11:26,620
Why not?
176
00:11:26,687 --> 00:11:30,023
- 'Cause they're invading our
country and beaches and everything.
177
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,196
- I suppose they could
be... if they tried hard.
178
00:11:36,262 --> 00:11:38,732
- Okay, thank you.
- Thank you very much.
179
00:11:42,302 --> 00:11:44,571
- I think Dan
walked into all this
180
00:11:44,638 --> 00:11:49,075
not realizing what a pond full
of sharks this joint really is.
181
00:11:49,142 --> 00:11:52,312
It was an absolute
hornet's nest.
182
00:11:54,748 --> 00:11:56,751
One of the first
things I did was, you know,
183
00:11:56,817 --> 00:12:00,153
rented a car and drove up to
the northern beaches to Manly.
184
00:12:05,125 --> 00:12:07,961
I was trying to shake the
international dateline
185
00:12:08,028 --> 00:12:10,164
from my head and I
went out for a run.
186
00:12:10,231 --> 00:12:13,200
I had a vague idea
of where Scott died.
187
00:12:13,266 --> 00:12:17,270
I ran up the hill to get
a sense of the place.
188
00:12:20,608 --> 00:12:22,142
Once I got up there...
189
00:12:22,810 --> 00:12:26,413
it's an incredibly
beautiful place.
190
00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:29,183
This is the grand Pacific.
191
00:12:29,683 --> 00:12:34,688
You can just go for days
and not hit any land at all.
192
00:12:34,755 --> 00:12:39,159
So, it has this end of
the world feel to it,
193
00:12:39,226 --> 00:12:42,362
even though you're seven
miles away from Sydney.
194
00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:46,133
I had seen the
aerial photographs.
195
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,502
There were some really
distinctive rocks.
196
00:12:49,303 --> 00:12:52,506
And I'm not particularly
fearful of heights,
197
00:12:52,573 --> 00:12:54,508
so I just, you know,
peered over and it's...
198
00:12:54,575 --> 00:12:58,411
I think they said 60 meters,
or just under 200 feet.
199
00:12:58,478 --> 00:13:01,715
It's a sheer drop.
It's a scary drop.
200
00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:06,486
It's hard to imagine
how horrible it would...
201
00:13:06,553 --> 00:13:10,557
Uh, that moment
where you're falling.
202
00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:14,627
We don't know the details,
203
00:13:14,694 --> 00:13:19,432
but it was horrific to think
about... dying that way.
204
00:13:21,768 --> 00:13:26,173
It was probably the first of
many times that I cried, um,
205
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,808
just thinkin' about that.
206
00:13:35,249 --> 00:13:40,087
I kept going on... and
kinda hit a, a dead end,
207
00:13:40,153 --> 00:13:42,956
hit a sewage plant, it was
a water treatment plant.
208
00:13:43,023 --> 00:13:47,661
And I saw a group of men who were, you
know, working by the side of the road.
209
00:13:47,728 --> 00:13:50,464
I said, "Did any of you guys
work back here in the '80s?"
210
00:13:50,531 --> 00:13:53,143
And one of 'em said, "Yeah, no, I've
been workin' here since the mid-'80s."
211
00:13:53,167 --> 00:13:57,671
I said, "Did gay men ever
come up here, you know?"
212
00:13:58,305 --> 00:14:00,340
And he said, "All
the time, mate."
213
00:14:00,407 --> 00:14:03,177
And I said I'd never forget
that, "All the time, mate."
214
00:14:03,243 --> 00:14:05,612
And he went on to explain
that they'd build little n...
215
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,483
What he called "love nests," um,
around, around the headland there.
216
00:14:09,549 --> 00:14:11,985
I said, "Would you be
willing to tell police this?"
217
00:14:12,052 --> 00:14:13,396
And he said, "Sure." So,
I wrote down his number
218
00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:16,022
on a... just a scrap of paper.
219
00:14:16,089 --> 00:14:20,760
So, it seemed that, perhaps, the
place where Scott died was a beat.
220
00:14:24,531 --> 00:14:27,568
- A gay beat is a public place.
221
00:14:27,635 --> 00:14:31,305
It may be a park, it may
be a public lavatory,
222
00:14:31,371 --> 00:14:34,575
it may be part of a beach
223
00:14:34,642 --> 00:14:38,511
where men hang around
to pick up other men.
224
00:14:42,683 --> 00:14:44,818
The beats were a club.
225
00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:47,487
You know, if I drove
up to Narrabeen,
226
00:14:47,554 --> 00:14:50,558
there would be two or three people
there that I knew and so, we would chat,
227
00:14:50,624 --> 00:14:54,828
and I'd have beers, and maybe
a bott... few bottles of wine.
228
00:14:54,895 --> 00:14:57,731
And so, we'd have
a little party.
229
00:15:01,568 --> 00:15:04,371
You were reasonably certain
that anyone on the beat
230
00:15:04,438 --> 00:15:07,741
was there for the
purpose of having sex.
231
00:15:13,547 --> 00:15:15,816
Until
1984, in New South Wales,
232
00:15:15,883 --> 00:15:21,088
gay sex was illegal, punishable
by... 14 years in jail.
233
00:15:21,155 --> 00:15:24,558
And that's why
beats were almost a haven.
234
00:15:24,625 --> 00:15:27,661
Part of the attraction
was the anonymity.
235
00:15:27,728 --> 00:15:30,597
You go and do what you wanted to do
and no one would ask any questions,
236
00:15:30,664 --> 00:15:32,442
you wouldn't have to make
them breakfast in the morning.
237
00:15:32,466 --> 00:15:35,569
There's not much in the way of
judgment, utterly anonymous.
238
00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:40,240
Which is why they held so much
appeal, also, for happily married men.
239
00:15:46,146 --> 00:15:48,081
When I was young,
240
00:15:48,148 --> 00:15:51,352
the Sunday papers would publish
241
00:15:51,418 --> 00:15:55,088
the name, address, offense,
242
00:15:55,155 --> 00:15:57,191
of all the men who'd been caught
243
00:15:57,258 --> 00:16:00,261
having sex in the
railway t... uh, toilets.
244
00:16:00,327 --> 00:16:02,329
It would destroy their life.
245
00:16:02,396 --> 00:16:06,000
If he were married, it might
be the end of a marriage,
246
00:16:06,066 --> 00:16:08,535
could certainly
destroy a career.
247
00:16:10,537 --> 00:16:12,406
Not everyone
who uses it is gay,
248
00:16:12,473 --> 00:16:18,078
but many gays cruise certain public
lavatories for instant, anonymous sex.
249
00:16:18,145 --> 00:16:20,681
It's risky, the
police may be lurking,
250
00:16:20,748 --> 00:16:24,785
but some gays have had as many as
2,000 encounters in lavatories.
251
00:16:24,852 --> 00:16:27,287
What do you get out of it?
252
00:16:28,455 --> 00:16:31,725
- Um, well, in my case,
a sense of adventure, um.
253
00:16:31,792 --> 00:16:35,496
- When you used one, did you make any
emotional contact with your partner?
254
00:16:35,562 --> 00:16:38,698
- Not usually, that's
almost against the rules.
255
00:16:38,765 --> 00:16:40,901
They're usually
anonymous, casual,
256
00:16:40,968 --> 00:16:44,037
uh, almost no words
are spoken, if any,
257
00:16:44,104 --> 00:16:47,273
uh, and there's usually
no affection shown.
258
00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:51,511
- It seems both incredibly
promiscuous and incredibly sordid.
259
00:16:52,979 --> 00:16:54,581
- Well, on the subject
of promiscuity,
260
00:16:54,648 --> 00:16:58,252
I'm always reminded of Kinsey's
definition of promiscuity.
261
00:16:58,319 --> 00:17:01,188
He said the only way he could
define a promiscuous person
262
00:17:01,255 --> 00:17:03,858
was somebody who was having
more sex than he was getting.
263
00:17:03,924 --> 00:17:08,295
If I choose to have a lot of sex,
I-I think that's my business.
264
00:17:11,098 --> 00:17:13,934
These beats were
apparently all over Sydney.
265
00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:22,042
One of the things that
I'd been able to read
266
00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:27,647
was the testimony of the officer
in charge of Scott's inquest.
267
00:17:29,416 --> 00:17:33,887
She said, "No, the place where
Scott died was not a beat."
268
00:17:33,954 --> 00:17:38,726
But we were getting multiple independent
sources telling us it was a beat,
269
00:17:38,792 --> 00:17:42,696
so that seemed, to me, really solid,
you know, that was nailed down.
270
00:17:42,763 --> 00:17:46,700
This was a beat and it was operating
at the time of Scott's death.
271
00:17:48,702 --> 00:17:52,406
- Dan calls me on his cellphone
and says, "It's a beat, Steve."
272
00:17:52,472 --> 00:17:56,143
And this, by the way, is one
kilometer from the police station.
273
00:17:56,210 --> 00:17:58,979
- That started this
process of learning,
274
00:17:59,045 --> 00:18:02,649
just... not just that it was a beat,
but it was a really popular beat.
275
00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:07,153
Sometimes there were 20 or 30 men
up there over the course of a day.
276
00:18:09,023 --> 00:18:11,025
I met a man
named Ulo Klemmer.
277
00:18:11,091 --> 00:18:14,228
And Ulo was an outreach
worker at the time
278
00:18:14,294 --> 00:18:17,864
doing AIDS education
at some of these beats,
279
00:18:17,931 --> 00:18:24,271
and he clearly knew how this beat
operated with incredible detail.
280
00:18:25,906 --> 00:18:29,276
First, you struggle
up that hill.
281
00:18:29,343 --> 00:18:33,380
Okay... we've got to the wall.
282
00:18:33,447 --> 00:18:36,884
Now, to get into the
area, which was the beat,
283
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:38,451
well, they've extended this.
284
00:18:38,518 --> 00:18:40,387
That used to be just
up to this level,
285
00:18:40,454 --> 00:18:42,355
so you had to squeeze through.
286
00:18:42,422 --> 00:18:44,925
You'd throw your towel through
if you had a bag or something
287
00:18:44,992 --> 00:18:46,726
and food, you'd
throw that through.
288
00:18:46,793 --> 00:18:49,196
It was a tight fit, you
had to quite wriggle.
289
00:18:49,263 --> 00:18:50,431
But once you got wriggled,
290
00:18:50,498 --> 00:18:54,134
you knew you were
in open, gay space.
291
00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:02,743
There's no housing,
there's no people,
292
00:19:02,810 --> 00:19:04,945
not that easy to get to.
293
00:19:05,012 --> 00:19:08,916
It's wooded, it's
bushy, it's isolated.
294
00:19:08,983 --> 00:19:11,351
It just felt safe.
295
00:19:15,722 --> 00:19:18,359
Even on a cloudy day in
the dead heart of winter,
296
00:19:18,425 --> 00:19:20,594
it's still beautiful here.
297
00:19:23,230 --> 00:19:25,766
People had their
particular favorite spot.
298
00:19:25,832 --> 00:19:31,171
They'd come in for sun,
uh, socializing, sex maybe.
299
00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:34,174
Some people liked the tan
line, some people didn't.
300
00:19:34,241 --> 00:19:37,711
In fact, most men did
strip off totally.
301
00:19:37,778 --> 00:19:42,349
So, Scott being naked
was not unusual at all.
302
00:19:45,086 --> 00:19:48,288
- Next question was,
"Was Scott prone to...
303
00:19:48,355 --> 00:19:50,223
Would he have gone to a beat?"
304
00:19:51,558 --> 00:19:53,527
Was he in such a
tight relationship
305
00:19:53,593 --> 00:19:55,362
with his boyfriend that
he'd never step out?
306
00:19:55,429 --> 00:19:57,731
Would he have gone hiking there
307
00:19:57,798 --> 00:20:01,068
and stumbled across this
beat and been interested?
308
00:20:02,303 --> 00:20:04,872
At the beginning, with
Steve's permission, Steve hired me,
309
00:20:04,939 --> 00:20:09,510
I said, "I'm gonna reach out to
Scott's partner, Michael, on my own."
310
00:20:09,577 --> 00:20:12,946
I, obviously, I need to ask some
very sensitive questions about,
311
00:20:13,013 --> 00:20:16,083
you know, "Did you
guys use beats?
312
00:20:16,150 --> 00:20:19,520
Did you know that Scott
used beats? How often?"
313
00:20:19,586 --> 00:20:22,422
You know, all these questions
because the biggest question
314
00:20:22,489 --> 00:20:24,658
that we all had was,
"What happened to Scott
315
00:20:24,725 --> 00:20:28,595
and what was he doin' in
Manly that day at a gay beat?"
316
00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:31,564
Well... so that was tough.
317
00:20:31,631 --> 00:20:36,269
And then he very, fairly
quickly, just turned against me.
318
00:20:37,438 --> 00:20:41,074
I think he thought,
"Let's not go there."
319
00:20:43,477 --> 00:20:47,748
- Oh, I was very surprised to find
that Scotty had been at a beat,
320
00:20:47,815 --> 00:20:51,351
uh, and it's a well-known
beat up on the cliffs there.
321
00:20:52,352 --> 00:20:56,123
To me, this was a bit unlike
Scott, but I don't know,
322
00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:58,591
uh, you know,
situations of people.
323
00:20:58,658 --> 00:21:04,698
You know, I... in relationships,
there are funny moments.
324
00:21:05,265 --> 00:21:06,967
There could have
been a lonely time
325
00:21:07,034 --> 00:21:10,637
or something that Scott wanted
companionship, I have no idea.
326
00:21:10,704 --> 00:21:13,807
- And so, you know, I,
to the extent I could,
327
00:21:13,874 --> 00:21:16,143
uh, tried to find out
what I, what I could
328
00:21:16,209 --> 00:21:19,746
about his relationship at
that time with Michael.
329
00:21:20,013 --> 00:21:26,020
By all appearances, they were a
solid, loving, committed relationship.
330
00:21:26,086 --> 00:21:30,224
We also know they weren't in a
strictly monogamous relationship.
331
00:21:30,291 --> 00:21:33,827
I mean, for example,
the Golden Gate story,
332
00:21:33,894 --> 00:21:40,300
Michael said that Scott said that
he had sex with somebody else.
333
00:21:41,835 --> 00:21:46,974
Apparently, Scott was worried that
he had gotten AIDS, felt remorseful,
334
00:21:47,041 --> 00:21:50,276
and therefore, wanted
to do himself in.
335
00:21:50,343 --> 00:21:54,447
We also know that Scott had
hooked up at least at one beat
336
00:21:54,514 --> 00:21:57,751
at the Macquarie
University bathrooms.
337
00:22:00,453 --> 00:22:04,291
I do think Scott and Michael
had a committed relationship.
338
00:22:04,358 --> 00:22:07,027
I do think that they
were trying pretty hard,
339
00:22:07,094 --> 00:22:10,698
but they're also young men, you
know, at, at a time where it's...
340
00:22:10,764 --> 00:22:17,103
You know, brief, anonymous sexual
encounters was pretty standard.
341
00:22:20,274 --> 00:22:23,410
Scott was a
fairly private individual.
342
00:22:23,477 --> 00:22:28,949
He did not share any
such details with
343
00:22:29,016 --> 00:22:31,618
any person that I know.
344
00:22:33,553 --> 00:22:37,057
The only thing I'm aware of
is that Scott and Michael
345
00:22:37,124 --> 00:22:40,461
both went to Kambah
Pool in Canberra,
346
00:22:40,528 --> 00:22:45,599
which was a nudist area,
which had a gay meeting area.
347
00:22:45,866 --> 00:22:52,239
But people went there for sunshine
as well as for contact with others.
348
00:22:56,510 --> 00:23:00,947
Once we established the place
where Scott died was a gay beat,
349
00:23:01,014 --> 00:23:02,683
then it's a big question mark.
350
00:23:02,750 --> 00:23:07,120
What happened up there
on the cliff that day?
351
00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:12,492
One of the things that my friend,
the homicide detective, he said,
352
00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:16,597
you know, "Get a timeline
of his last movements."
353
00:23:17,197 --> 00:23:20,801
Here's what we learned
about Scott's last week.
354
00:23:21,435 --> 00:23:24,505
On Saturday, there was
a birthday party for him
355
00:23:24,572 --> 00:23:28,308
at his partner's
parents' house in Sydney.
356
00:23:28,876 --> 00:23:33,280
The next day, his partner said,
"We went to Obelisk Beach,"
357
00:23:33,347 --> 00:23:37,318
which is a gay beach in
the suburbs of Sydney.
358
00:23:37,384 --> 00:23:41,688
On Monday, Michael drove back to
Canberra and left Scott in Sydney
359
00:23:41,755 --> 00:23:45,058
because Scott was gonna be meeting with
his professor about his dissertation.
360
00:23:46,026 --> 00:23:49,663
Scott had a meeting with
Professor Street on the 7th
361
00:23:49,730 --> 00:23:54,835
in which he wanted to go over his new,
elegant solution to his math problem.
362
00:23:54,901 --> 00:23:59,640
- Scott left, uh, his
professor's office and the last
363
00:23:59,707 --> 00:24:05,045
physical trace of Scott is
an ATM slip that was stamped
364
00:24:05,112 --> 00:24:07,147
that afternoon in
downtown Sydney.
365
00:24:07,214 --> 00:24:10,784
So, he went from the
pr-professor's to downtown Sydney,
366
00:24:10,851 --> 00:24:13,687
took some money out of the ATM,
367
00:24:13,754 --> 00:24:17,391
and at his partner's parents'
house, where he was staying,
368
00:24:17,457 --> 00:24:19,860
his partner's sister remembers
hearing Scott come in
369
00:24:19,927 --> 00:24:22,663
around 11 o'clock
that Wednesday night.
370
00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:26,400
On Thursday, she got up
for work at around six,
371
00:24:26,467 --> 00:24:30,504
and she remembers seeing his
feet through a crack in the door,
372
00:24:30,571 --> 00:24:33,840
6:00 A.M., Thursday
morning, December 8.
373
00:24:33,907 --> 00:24:38,144
- Michael's sister saw his
toes poking out from the bed.
374
00:24:38,211 --> 00:24:40,481
So that, presumably, was Scott,
375
00:24:40,548 --> 00:24:46,219
and presumably, was the last person
that we know of that saw Scott alive.
376
00:24:46,286 --> 00:24:49,423
- Around 12, he
calls his professor
377
00:24:49,490 --> 00:24:52,826
and goes through the proof of
the problem for his dissertation.
378
00:24:52,893 --> 00:24:55,896
His professor says,
"Let's meet on Wednesday."
379
00:24:55,962 --> 00:24:58,699
- Around noon that same day,
380
00:24:58,766 --> 00:25:04,805
Scott received a phone call from a
friend of Michael's looking for Michael.
381
00:25:05,706 --> 00:25:09,876
He told police later
that Scott seemed normal.
382
00:25:11,044 --> 00:25:16,316
- Two days later, Scott's body was
found naked at the bottom of this cliff.
383
00:25:17,618 --> 00:25:20,053
As far as what
actually happened between
384
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,690
sometime around
noon on December 8th
385
00:25:23,757 --> 00:25:26,860
and mid-morning December 10th,
386
00:25:26,927 --> 00:25:29,029
it's a blank.
387
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,703
After Scott's death, there was
a really tiny two-inch story
388
00:25:36,770 --> 00:25:39,539
in the Manly Daily, which
was the local newspaper.
389
00:25:39,606 --> 00:25:44,845
Said, "Body on rocks, no
suspicious circumstances."
390
00:25:45,546 --> 00:25:49,016
So, I wanted to see if I could
find somebody who was still around
391
00:25:49,082 --> 00:25:51,218
who might have written
that or knew about it.
392
00:25:51,284 --> 00:25:54,454
Nobody remembered who wrote it,
but there was this one reporter.
393
00:25:54,521 --> 00:25:58,392
I just started chattin' him up
about, you know, what we were doin'
394
00:25:58,458 --> 00:26:02,996
and what was the scene
in Manly back in the day.
395
00:26:03,063 --> 00:26:05,398
And he said, "Do you
mind if I do a story on,
396
00:26:05,465 --> 00:26:07,334
you know, you know,
what you're up to here?"
397
00:26:07,401 --> 00:26:09,370
And I s-said, "No.
Of course not."
398
00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:14,908
- I emailed a picture of Scott and
me with the Matterhorn between us
399
00:26:14,975 --> 00:26:17,078
from 1984 when we climbed it,
400
00:26:17,144 --> 00:26:21,915
and that picture appeared on the front
page of the Manly Daily the next day
401
00:26:21,982 --> 00:26:25,218
with a huge heading,
"Was it murder?"
402
00:26:29,889 --> 00:26:32,759
- Maybe 10 o'clock that
morning I got my first call.
403
00:26:43,337 --> 00:26:48,108
Many, many, many, many
other men came forward.
404
00:26:48,175 --> 00:26:52,178
In between interviews, I'd
call Steve and very quickly,
405
00:26:52,245 --> 00:26:53,880
our relationship
kind of just changed.
406
00:26:53,947 --> 00:26:56,516
We were, you know, co-conspirators
rather than, you know,
407
00:26:56,583 --> 00:26:59,162
like, "Oh, Mr. Johnson,
I have a report for you today."
408
00:26:59,186 --> 00:27:00,854
- Dan and I really hit it off.
409
00:27:00,921 --> 00:27:02,556
We talked all the time.
410
00:27:03,691 --> 00:27:08,928
After the article, he talked to
this one fellow nicknamed Saidy.
411
00:27:09,529 --> 00:27:12,432
He told me his story.
412
00:27:13,299 --> 00:27:16,737
He had been up there, he
had gone to this beat,
413
00:27:16,804 --> 00:27:18,172
he had met a man.
414
00:27:18,706 --> 00:27:22,209
They had consensual sex and
then, the man stabbed him
415
00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:24,077
in the back with a Bowie knife.
416
00:27:24,144 --> 00:27:27,982
And Saidy ended up walking
down the hill to the hospital
417
00:27:28,048 --> 00:27:31,151
with a Bowie knife
stickin' out of his back.
418
00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:36,423
He pulled up his shirt
and he showed me the scar.
419
00:27:36,490 --> 00:27:39,726
Apparently, missed his spinal
cord by, you know, millimeters.
420
00:27:40,194 --> 00:27:46,267
And I just thought about how the police
unequivocally said this was not a beat.
421
00:27:47,268 --> 00:27:49,937
The investigating
officer said this is not an area
422
00:27:50,003 --> 00:27:51,705
that homosexuals frequent
423
00:27:51,772 --> 00:27:57,578
because if it were, then we would've
gotten reports of violence there.
424
00:27:57,644 --> 00:27:58,912
No one said this was a beat.
425
00:27:58,979 --> 00:28:02,549
No one said there's violence
all over town at these places.
426
00:28:02,616 --> 00:28:06,987
- Now, a phenomenon increasingly
familiar in all our major cities,
427
00:28:07,054 --> 00:28:09,323
groups of youngsters
beating up other youngsters
428
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:13,426
because they look or act as
if they may be homosexual.
429
00:28:15,862 --> 00:28:19,467
- Well, it was just about here. They
sort of threw me against the wall.
430
00:28:19,533 --> 00:28:22,669
Um, a few punches, few
headbutts in further,
431
00:28:22,736 --> 00:28:26,540
suffered a few bruises, uh, two
broken cheeks, and a broken nose.
432
00:28:27,474 --> 00:28:30,344
It was a time
of immense crisis.
433
00:28:30,411 --> 00:28:35,215
Any gay man who had been living
in S-Surry Hills or Darlinghurst
434
00:28:35,282 --> 00:28:37,985
for longer than two years had
been beaten up at least once,
435
00:28:38,052 --> 00:28:39,753
almost without exception.
436
00:28:48,795 --> 00:28:50,997
- I was, um, just walking
down, minding my own business
437
00:28:51,064 --> 00:28:54,168
and I looked up and there was
about six guys surrounding me
438
00:28:54,234 --> 00:28:56,136
and started hitting me,
calling me a poofter.
439
00:28:56,203 --> 00:28:59,773
The guy came up and just
kicked me on my side of the chest
440
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,808
and then he kicked
me in the face.
441
00:29:01,875 --> 00:29:04,744
And, um, I just
don't go out anymore.
442
00:29:04,811 --> 00:29:07,414
I'm just terrified
to walk around now.
443
00:29:10,317 --> 00:29:14,021
The violence has
been going on forever,
444
00:29:14,088 --> 00:29:17,558
but it got a focus
and a, and an impetus
445
00:29:17,624 --> 00:29:21,528
from the nastiness in
the '80s around AIDS,
446
00:29:21,595 --> 00:29:26,099
in which we were seen
as being dangerous.
447
00:29:27,168 --> 00:29:28,936
There was
rumors draggin' around,
448
00:29:29,003 --> 00:29:31,972
you know, "If they breathe on me,
if they touch me, I can get AIDS."
449
00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:33,207
All complete crap.
450
00:29:33,274 --> 00:29:36,276
And then enter the
Grim Reaper campaign.
451
00:29:38,411 --> 00:29:41,749
At first, only
gays and IV drug users
452
00:29:41,815 --> 00:29:43,783
were being killed by AIDS.
453
00:29:44,351 --> 00:29:47,787
But now we know every one of
us could be devastated by it.
454
00:29:50,123 --> 00:29:52,392
- That was the mood
we were living in.
455
00:29:52,926 --> 00:29:55,128
I turned 40,
456
00:29:55,195 --> 00:29:59,032
and I was diagnosed with HIV.
457
00:29:59,099 --> 00:30:00,600
Carry
the AIDS virus...
458
00:30:00,667 --> 00:30:03,403
So, I certainly remember
the Grim Reaper commercial.
459
00:30:04,638 --> 00:30:09,075
The message was we
were the Grim Reaper.
460
00:30:09,776 --> 00:30:11,512
We were the danger.
461
00:30:11,578 --> 00:30:14,381
It could kill
more Australians than...
462
00:30:14,447 --> 00:30:17,017
Gay men, and
particularly, gay men with HIV
463
00:30:17,084 --> 00:30:20,421
were gonna kill these
nice, straight people.
464
00:30:20,488 --> 00:30:23,590
What do you think
of people who bash up gays?
465
00:30:23,657 --> 00:30:25,425
- It's their own decision.
466
00:30:25,492 --> 00:30:27,895
Do you think
it's right or wrong?
467
00:30:27,961 --> 00:30:29,229
- I don't really care.
468
00:30:29,296 --> 00:30:30,673
- Does it worry you at all?
- No.
469
00:30:30,697 --> 00:30:32,799
- Would you do it yourself?
- Yeah.
470
00:30:32,866 --> 00:30:34,234
- You would?
- Yeah.
471
00:30:34,301 --> 00:30:35,969
- Have you done it?
- Once.
472
00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:37,638
Why?
473
00:30:37,705 --> 00:30:39,239
- 'Cause he touched me.
474
00:30:39,673 --> 00:30:43,577
- They must have some disorder
in their mental minds, right?
475
00:30:43,643 --> 00:30:47,480
Because otherwise, they wouldn't
be having sex with other men.
476
00:30:49,583 --> 00:30:54,854
- These people thought gay men
were disgusting and fair game.
477
00:30:54,921 --> 00:30:56,623
And we've been told
that all our lives
478
00:30:56,690 --> 00:31:00,727
from our... by our parents, by
our peers, by religious leaders.
479
00:31:01,361 --> 00:31:03,630
The, uh,
homosexual is both,
480
00:31:03,697 --> 00:31:08,301
in my opinion, offensive,
obscene, and also blasphemous.
481
00:31:10,837 --> 00:31:12,639
Two men don't
constitute a family.
482
00:31:12,706 --> 00:31:16,843
God created Adam and
Eve, not Adam and Steve.
483
00:31:16,910 --> 00:31:19,546
- Fate of the
practicing homosexual.
484
00:31:19,913 --> 00:31:24,117
- Bashers took the view that
they were doing God's work.
485
00:31:24,751 --> 00:31:28,021
That they were doing the right th...
They had an excuse for doing it.
486
00:31:30,557 --> 00:31:35,662
- We were learning about a
pattern of violence against
487
00:31:35,729 --> 00:31:40,601
gay men in that time, uh, in,
in the greater Sydney area.
488
00:31:40,668 --> 00:31:44,771
They were really
violent, violent attacks.
489
00:31:47,441 --> 00:31:51,612
This guy told me this story that
I just, you know, never forget.
490
00:31:51,678 --> 00:31:54,982
He said, "I was with the
person I had hooked up with
491
00:31:55,049 --> 00:31:57,050
"and we heard a bunch
of bashers coming,
492
00:31:57,117 --> 00:31:59,987
"and we knew they
were comin' for us.
493
00:32:00,053 --> 00:32:02,056
Do we run or do we fight?"
494
00:32:02,656 --> 00:32:06,360
And his mate said, "I'm a better
runner than I'm a fighter."
495
00:32:06,427 --> 00:32:08,695
And they took off in
opposite directions.
496
00:32:08,762 --> 00:32:11,798
And the guy who was telling
me the story got away,
497
00:32:12,466 --> 00:32:14,000
and, uh,
498
00:32:14,734 --> 00:32:19,406
he... his, his partner
got caught and was bashed,
499
00:32:19,472 --> 00:32:22,176
and he didn't know how
badly 'cause he ran away.
500
00:32:22,576 --> 00:32:27,214
And he said, "Every time I see a
guy in a wheelchair about my age,
501
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,748
I wonder if it's him."
502
00:32:33,053 --> 00:32:36,556
Back in those days, I was
pretty ignorant of what was going on.
503
00:32:36,623 --> 00:32:39,359
Think as a young, gay man and
a, particularly, a detective,
504
00:32:39,426 --> 00:32:42,029
you know, I didn't frequent
beats, I knew nothing about it.
505
00:32:42,096 --> 00:32:43,831
So, maybe that's
one of the reasons
506
00:32:43,897 --> 00:32:47,134
I can still remember this one
incident with such great clarity.
507
00:32:48,101 --> 00:32:53,340
I think it was the summer
of '80, '81 from memory, um.
508
00:32:53,407 --> 00:32:57,411
We got called to a bashing, an
old fella, late 50s I suppose,
509
00:32:57,477 --> 00:33:00,313
in the lavatory at the
Collaroy Surf Club.
510
00:33:01,882 --> 00:33:04,618
They'd found him face
down in the urinal.
511
00:33:04,684 --> 00:33:06,119
He'd been so badly beaten,
512
00:33:06,186 --> 00:33:09,556
they'd actually tried to kick his
head through the, uh, drain hole.
513
00:33:10,791 --> 00:33:13,293
His eyebrow had been torn off,
514
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,505
and we found the eyebrow
actually sitting in the toilet.
515
00:33:15,529 --> 00:33:18,098
Just one of those awful things
you'll never get out of your head.
516
00:33:18,165 --> 00:33:20,200
And he was more terrified of us
517
00:33:20,267 --> 00:33:23,570
than he was of the people
who'd assaulted him.
518
00:33:23,637 --> 00:33:26,406
I was actually,
uh, stabbed with a knife.
519
00:33:26,473 --> 00:33:29,543
I reported it to the
police and I got no support
520
00:33:29,609 --> 00:33:31,087
- from them whatsoever.
- What did they do?
521
00:33:31,111 --> 00:33:33,313
What did they say?
- Um,
522
00:33:33,380 --> 00:33:35,382
"Oh, it's your own fault.
523
00:33:35,449 --> 00:33:38,885
"You're a, you're a fag,
you know, you're a faggot.
524
00:33:38,952 --> 00:33:42,188
You know, you gotta live with
that. It's your problem."
525
00:33:43,357 --> 00:33:45,292
In the 1980s,
526
00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:48,128
I was an investigator
with internal affairs,
527
00:33:48,195 --> 00:33:52,466
and I remember one investigation
into a police officer
528
00:33:52,533 --> 00:33:55,803
who was actually
bashing gay people.
529
00:33:55,869 --> 00:33:57,271
It was taken very seriously
530
00:33:57,338 --> 00:33:59,806
and the person was
subsequently charged.
531
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,443
But at the time,
there was a culture
532
00:34:02,509 --> 00:34:05,145
of turning a blind eye
to improper conduct,
533
00:34:05,212 --> 00:34:11,618
whether it be corrupt conduct, criminal
conduct, or unethical behavior.
534
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,990
- One in five poofs is beaten
up because of their sexuality.
535
00:34:17,057 --> 00:34:19,259
This sort of violence
is intended...
536
00:34:19,326 --> 00:34:24,197
All over Sydney in
the 1980s and into the 1990s,
537
00:34:24,264 --> 00:34:27,735
there were hoodlums going to
these places gay men would go
538
00:34:27,801 --> 00:34:29,502
and assaulting them.
539
00:34:30,804 --> 00:34:35,675
It really brought the horror
of Scott's death to life.
540
00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:41,057
It
was a learning process for Steve
541
00:34:41,081 --> 00:34:45,252
because he didn't know about gay
bashings, or beats, or any of this.
542
00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:50,724
Once we had a better understanding
of the climate and, and, and the, um,
543
00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:53,126
violence that was out there,
544
00:34:53,193 --> 00:34:56,830
it, it, it was... I was...
Just felt sick to my stomach.
545
00:34:58,565 --> 00:35:02,169
The proportion of
this violence started
546
00:35:02,235 --> 00:35:05,705
shifting the suicide,
not suicide, probability
547
00:35:05,772 --> 00:35:10,277
in a really significant way that
Scott had probably been murdered.
548
00:35:11,478 --> 00:35:16,150
- How could the police not have
suspected murder right off the bat?
549
00:35:16,217 --> 00:35:19,253
Scott was naked at a beat.
550
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,221
No detective in his right mind
551
00:35:21,287 --> 00:35:25,158
would've gone up there and
said, "Maybe he suicided."
552
00:35:27,895 --> 00:35:31,831
After the Scott
Johnson case, I had moved on.
553
00:35:31,898 --> 00:35:38,104
In fact, my police career ended in
1996 when I was basically 32 years old.
554
00:35:40,774 --> 00:35:42,709
I never did think
about North Head
555
00:35:42,776 --> 00:35:45,146
or about Scott Johnson again
556
00:35:45,212 --> 00:35:47,081
until over 20 years later
557
00:35:47,147 --> 00:35:50,684
when I had Daniel Glick
reaching out to me.
558
00:35:50,751 --> 00:35:53,687
Dan was asking me
about gay beats.
559
00:35:55,255 --> 00:35:58,325
I didn't know that North
Head was a gay beat,
560
00:35:58,392 --> 00:36:00,627
was not aware of it. I-I
can't a... I can't ask.
561
00:36:00,694 --> 00:36:04,632
I-I, I don't know. I-I, I
just was not aware of that,
562
00:36:04,698 --> 00:36:09,870
and, um, I grew up in the area, too,
and I never ever, ever knew that.
563
00:36:10,604 --> 00:36:14,241
And maybe I was naive...
I just didn't know.
564
00:36:16,543 --> 00:36:20,981
There had been times when I had found
couples of the same sex in a motor car
565
00:36:21,047 --> 00:36:23,751
in the parking
area of North Head.
566
00:36:24,285 --> 00:36:26,954
But I did know for a fact that
567
00:36:27,020 --> 00:36:31,558
the cliffs along there were regular places
where people chose to commit suicide.
568
00:36:31,625 --> 00:36:35,128
The conclusion that I drew
at the time was a suicide.
569
00:36:38,365 --> 00:36:43,737
I was of the belief, at the time,
that Scott Johnson had come,
570
00:36:43,803 --> 00:36:45,806
stripped his clothes off,
571
00:36:45,873 --> 00:36:47,350
neatly fold 'em at
the top of the cliff,
572
00:36:47,374 --> 00:36:49,510
placed his
identification on top,
573
00:36:49,577 --> 00:36:51,311
so that his identity
could be revealed.
574
00:36:51,378 --> 00:36:53,747
He then went to the edge of
the cliff some 40 meters away
575
00:36:53,814 --> 00:36:57,918
and made the choice to end his
life by jumping from that cliff.
576
00:36:58,819 --> 00:37:03,323
- The story was that the clothes were
neatly folded to military precision,
577
00:37:03,390 --> 00:37:06,626
which was evidence
for ritual suicide.
578
00:37:07,227 --> 00:37:09,430
- They said, "Ah, great.
Golden Gate Bridge.
579
00:37:09,496 --> 00:37:14,134
Ah, ritual suicide, folding
the clothes, we're done."
580
00:37:14,201 --> 00:37:19,506
One of the problems in
all of this murkiness
581
00:37:19,573 --> 00:37:23,277
is that there was no picture
of this... the clothes
582
00:37:23,344 --> 00:37:27,748
in this meticulously
folded, noteworthy way.
583
00:37:27,814 --> 00:37:31,485
- So, there was one aerial
photograph of the scene up on top,
584
00:37:31,552 --> 00:37:35,189
and you could see this little
blue speck behind the tree
585
00:37:35,255 --> 00:37:36,757
where Scott's clothes were
586
00:37:37,458 --> 00:37:40,493
about 30 feet from
the edge of the cliff.
587
00:37:41,895 --> 00:37:45,499
The police picked up the clothes
without photographing them.
588
00:37:45,833 --> 00:37:48,568
And so, we have two photographs
589
00:37:48,635 --> 00:37:51,371
where the clothes are all laid
out down in the parking lot
590
00:37:51,438 --> 00:37:54,241
and they carted
the clothes away.
591
00:37:54,842 --> 00:37:57,277
- That was a cock-up, yes.
592
00:37:57,344 --> 00:37:59,913
The clothing should've
been photographed
593
00:37:59,980 --> 00:38:02,983
in the position in
which it was found,
594
00:38:03,050 --> 00:38:05,118
in its untouched state.
595
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,922
So, it was an error at
the time, a rookie error.
596
00:38:09,356 --> 00:38:13,093
It was just, unfortunately, one
that happened in this instance.
597
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,594
- What's goin' on here?
598
00:38:14,661 --> 00:38:18,132
All of these things just
keep sort of snowballing,
599
00:38:18,198 --> 00:38:22,036
uh, to this incredibly, uh,
600
00:38:22,103 --> 00:38:25,805
complex picture of
incompetence at least
601
00:38:25,872 --> 00:38:28,575
and, worse, we still don't know.
602
00:38:29,242 --> 00:38:32,979
It just struck me
at their inadequacy.
603
00:38:33,046 --> 00:38:37,284
- Yeah, well, okay. Dan Glick
isn't held in very high regard,
604
00:38:37,351 --> 00:38:41,221
from my perspective,
'cause he was trying
605
00:38:42,155 --> 00:38:45,860
to move... the whole theory
606
00:38:45,926 --> 00:38:48,529
that Scott... had suicided.
607
00:38:48,595 --> 00:38:53,600
I indicated to him that
there was no evidence
608
00:38:53,667 --> 00:38:58,638
that had ever been presented to me
to indicate that murder was involved.
609
00:38:58,705 --> 00:39:04,645
Daniel was just hell-bent
on twisting my words
610
00:39:04,711 --> 00:39:08,916
and arriving at an outcome
for his paying client,
611
00:39:08,983 --> 00:39:10,450
was the opinion that I formed,
612
00:39:10,517 --> 00:39:14,821
and I severed any further
communications with him after that.
613
00:39:14,888 --> 00:39:18,558
- Yeah, I was gettin' paid for it
and I wouldn't have done it for free,
614
00:39:18,625 --> 00:39:24,497
but I felt like I was workin' for Scott,
um, you know, and truth and justice.
615
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:31,672
I ended up doing a lot of research
in medical literature into suicide
616
00:39:31,739 --> 00:39:36,944
and committing suicide by
jumping is, first of all, rare.
617
00:39:37,011 --> 00:39:40,914
Doing it, uh, naked
is almost unheard of.
618
00:39:40,981 --> 00:39:43,650
Naked suicide?
Almost nonexistent.
619
00:39:43,717 --> 00:39:48,055
- It's unusual for suicide,
uh, for no clothing on a body.
620
00:39:48,122 --> 00:39:52,192
Uh, on the other hand...
it can occur, at times.
621
00:39:52,259 --> 00:39:54,528
I've certainly seen
it, at times, where
622
00:39:54,594 --> 00:39:58,098
there's been no doubt
that it's been a suicide,
623
00:39:58,164 --> 00:40:00,800
but it's, it's a bit
unusual, I have to admit.
624
00:40:05,639 --> 00:40:08,909
I learned that there was
an unsolved homicide group,
625
00:40:08,976 --> 00:40:13,747
and I said, "Hey, um, think we've got
some credible new information for you,
626
00:40:13,814 --> 00:40:15,849
you know, what should we do?"
627
00:40:16,250 --> 00:40:19,920
And they said, "Yeah, but,
you know, you're a civilian.
628
00:40:19,987 --> 00:40:25,559
We need, you know, police
investigation to, to get new evidence."
629
00:40:25,626 --> 00:40:28,762
And I said, "Okay, right.
How do we do that?"
630
00:40:28,829 --> 00:40:31,098
He said, "Oh, well,
actually you can't
631
00:40:31,164 --> 00:40:33,800
because the police can't
investigate a suicide."
632
00:40:33,867 --> 00:40:36,303
So, was just like this catch-22.
633
00:40:40,207 --> 00:40:42,043
Dan came
back to America,
634
00:40:42,109 --> 00:40:46,613
and then we pulled everything that we've
learned together in a 12-page report.
635
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,851
We thought it was definitive. It
was conclusive. Rock-solid evidence.
636
00:40:50,918 --> 00:40:54,688
This was a beat, there was violence
all over town in the 1980s.
637
00:40:54,755 --> 00:40:59,259
The police now can get to work
with a homicide investigation.
638
00:40:59,326 --> 00:41:02,129
We just sent it out
thinking they would read that
639
00:41:02,196 --> 00:41:05,198
and go, "Oh, sorry, mate,
we really screwed that up,
640
00:41:05,265 --> 00:41:06,867
you know, we'll
get right on it."
641
00:41:06,934 --> 00:41:09,803
Uh, instead, we were
dead in the water.
642
00:41:11,071 --> 00:41:14,317
I think the New South Wales police
force didn't like Steve Johnson very much
643
00:41:14,341 --> 00:41:17,677
because all of a sudden, you've
got a, a very smart bloke,
644
00:41:17,744 --> 00:41:22,182
a bloke with a big... very deep pockets,
is questioning what they've done.
645
00:41:25,619 --> 00:41:29,222
Cops back in those days,
everyone was generally white.
646
00:41:29,289 --> 00:41:32,859
When I started at Manly, there
were no policewomen at all.
647
00:41:32,926 --> 00:41:34,561
It's a brotherhood.
648
00:41:34,628 --> 00:41:37,428
You don't rat on your brother and
you're there to protect your brother.
649
00:41:38,832 --> 00:41:41,768
Steve was just pushing
and pushing and pushing.
650
00:41:41,835 --> 00:41:43,980
He didn't take a backward
step, he was asking question...
651
00:41:44,004 --> 00:41:45,806
He was really bloody irritating.
652
00:41:45,873 --> 00:41:48,909
The cops are having their
entire investigation questioned.
653
00:41:48,976 --> 00:41:50,677
They don't like
being questioned.
654
00:41:51,511 --> 00:41:53,831
It just seemed like
every time Steve reached out
655
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,182
they would say, "Why can't
this guy just, like, let it go?
656
00:41:56,249 --> 00:42:00,020
His brother's gone. Um,
nothing's gonna bring him back."
657
00:42:00,087 --> 00:42:02,356
But it was real.
658
00:42:02,422 --> 00:42:06,293
There was a real, real crime
possibly that happened.
659
00:42:06,359 --> 00:42:09,229
Didn't know... We just
didn't know what to do.
660
00:42:11,765 --> 00:42:14,601
Look how beautiful
the sailboats are, honey.
661
00:42:15,369 --> 00:42:18,739
See those sail
boats? On your left.
662
00:42:18,806 --> 00:42:21,007
I was running a
company at the time.
663
00:42:21,074 --> 00:42:23,643
I got my three kids
that I'm raising.
664
00:42:25,445 --> 00:42:27,380
And we just kept waiting.
665
00:42:27,447 --> 00:42:30,250
Dad's getting
ready to take pictures.
666
00:42:30,317 --> 00:42:32,762
We kept waiting and
prompting and waiting and prompting,
667
00:42:32,786 --> 00:42:36,323
and we continued not to
hear anything for years.
668
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:39,826
Emma just had her prom
last night. How t'was it?
669
00:42:39,893 --> 00:42:41,428
- T'was it? CHILD:
Ah, whatever.
670
00:42:41,495 --> 00:42:43,964
Just answer the question.
- It was good.
671
00:42:44,030 --> 00:42:47,034
T'was good. CHILD: What did you
wear? Did you wear anything dorky?
672
00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:51,605
Yes.
- I wore a beautiful tuxedo, 1840s.
673
00:42:51,671 --> 00:42:53,840
I came out when I was 14.
674
00:42:53,907 --> 00:42:57,277
And for me, being queer has
always been a profound joy.
675
00:42:59,013 --> 00:43:01,348
I've thought a lot
about the relationship
676
00:43:01,415 --> 00:43:05,419
my Uncle Scott and I could've
had across generations,
677
00:43:05,485 --> 00:43:08,556
talking about our identities
and how the world had changed,
678
00:43:08,622 --> 00:43:10,924
and how we were both
navigating those things.
679
00:43:13,827 --> 00:43:16,329
As a teenager, I was so invested
680
00:43:16,396 --> 00:43:18,499
and for me, I couldn't,
I couldn't maintain
681
00:43:18,565 --> 00:43:22,069
that level of emotional
involvement every day,
682
00:43:22,135 --> 00:43:26,206
you know, for... the
whole 17 years since then.
683
00:43:26,273 --> 00:43:31,144
I had to detach a little more,
but my dad has never detached.
684
00:43:34,614 --> 00:43:38,351
By the end of the
year, we were just stuck.
685
00:43:38,418 --> 00:43:40,854
I told Steve, "I don't
know what else I could do."
686
00:43:40,921 --> 00:43:42,989
Steve didn't know
what else he could do.
687
00:43:43,056 --> 00:43:45,759
We just... stopped
688
00:43:49,462 --> 00:43:50,497
until
689
00:43:52,166 --> 00:43:54,634
January 2011.
690
00:43:56,403 --> 00:44:00,040
There's a very
popular Facebook page called,
691
00:44:00,107 --> 00:44:02,375
"Gay Marriage in Australia,"
692
00:44:02,442 --> 00:44:04,345
and somebody posted on there,
693
00:44:04,411 --> 00:44:08,582
"I hereby confess to
killing Scott Johnson."
694
00:44:10,684 --> 00:44:15,355
Somebody saw this post, did
some Googling, and emailed Dan,
695
00:44:15,422 --> 00:44:20,428
"Hey, somebody confessed to that
murder you wrote about in 2007."
696
00:44:21,028 --> 00:44:23,631
I was on
vacation in Argentina,
697
00:44:23,697 --> 00:44:28,969
and I woke up to an email that said,
"Scott Johnson Murder Confessor."
698
00:44:29,503 --> 00:44:34,407
Obviously, I had no idea
if this was a hoax or what.
699
00:44:38,578 --> 00:44:40,290
At this point, I didn't
even bother with the police.
700
00:44:40,314 --> 00:44:42,149
I sent it to the New
South Wales coroner.
701
00:44:42,215 --> 00:44:46,520
She responded right away,
"We're on it, thanks."
702
00:44:46,587 --> 00:44:50,290
Couple months go by, I
come back from Argentina.
703
00:44:51,124 --> 00:44:53,593
"Hey, anything?"
704
00:44:53,660 --> 00:44:56,897
So that's when, you know, I
took my next trip to Sydney
705
00:44:56,963 --> 00:45:01,668
to, um, as Lou Schmidt would've
put it, "Stir the pot again."
706
00:45:03,070 --> 00:45:05,105
The police did end
up investigating.
707
00:45:05,171 --> 00:45:07,842
We met with one officer
who was put in charge.
708
00:45:07,908 --> 00:45:12,779
I went over all the materials with
him just point by point by point.
709
00:45:13,380 --> 00:45:16,483
- He managed to get to the bottom
of the Facebook confession.
710
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:20,454
Turned out to be a 14-year-old
local kid who lived in Manly.
711
00:45:20,521 --> 00:45:26,192
For some reason, confessed to killing
Scott Johnson way before he was born.
712
00:45:26,861 --> 00:45:28,762
So that was a dead end.
713
00:45:30,063 --> 00:45:32,533
- This Facebook confession
ends up being a hoax,
714
00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:36,403
but that got officials
to pay attention to this.
715
00:45:38,071 --> 00:45:43,243
April 2012, I get a phone
call from the New South Wales police.
716
00:45:43,310 --> 00:45:45,913
The coroner's decided
to have another inquest.
717
00:45:45,980 --> 00:45:50,350
There would be a second
inquest, and that was huge.
718
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,358
- Now, maybe they would see that it's
not somebody just being irrational,
719
00:45:58,425 --> 00:46:00,427
somebody who couldn't let go.
720
00:46:00,494 --> 00:46:01,695
That was big.
721
00:46:05,232 --> 00:46:08,134
The second inquest
was fairly pro forma,
722
00:46:08,201 --> 00:46:12,572
going through all this
review of our materials.
723
00:46:14,474 --> 00:46:18,311
The coroner made an open
finding in the second inquest.
724
00:46:18,378 --> 00:46:22,349
By making an open finding,
the coroner was, potentially,
725
00:46:22,416 --> 00:46:24,718
of the belief that there could
be some more evidence there
726
00:46:24,784 --> 00:46:27,721
that needed to be further
investigated by the police.
727
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:33,293
The coroner ruled there's
not enough information to conclude
728
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,997
homicide versus suicide
versus accident,
729
00:46:37,064 --> 00:46:40,467
so she referred it to
unsolved homicides.
730
00:46:44,504 --> 00:46:50,443
This was finally an official in Australia
saying that Scott's case mattered
731
00:46:50,510 --> 00:46:52,379
and that it needed
to be investigated,
732
00:46:52,446 --> 00:46:56,250
and, furthermore, our investigation
was totally vindicated.
733
00:46:56,316 --> 00:46:59,519
We were really,
incredibly happy.
734
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,925
To reopen the case after all these
years is incredibly... gratifying.
735
00:47:04,992 --> 00:47:07,294
- Today's findings amount
to a stinging attack
736
00:47:07,361 --> 00:47:09,562
on the original
police investigation.
737
00:47:09,629 --> 00:47:13,233
- The police made a quick determination
of, of what they thought happened
738
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:15,135
and turned out that
they were wrong.
739
00:47:16,537 --> 00:47:18,305
That felt
like such a victory
740
00:47:18,372 --> 00:47:22,676
just to have someone in
authority acknowledge
741
00:47:22,742 --> 00:47:27,948
that we weren't being hysterical
or, you know, just causing problems,
742
00:47:28,014 --> 00:47:33,153
that actually there had been...
a sort of dereliction of duty
743
00:47:33,220 --> 00:47:36,523
and that they didn't
properly investigate it.
744
00:47:37,357 --> 00:47:41,328
That was really meaningful
to hear that acknowledged.
745
00:47:45,432 --> 00:47:47,034
After the
second inquest,
746
00:47:47,101 --> 00:47:50,704
it seemed time for something that
I had planned to do since he died,
747
00:47:50,771 --> 00:47:56,410
and always waited until his
case was taken seriously,
748
00:47:56,477 --> 00:47:59,379
which was to scatter
Scott's ashes.
749
00:47:59,747 --> 00:48:00,947
Well...
750
00:48:01,715 --> 00:48:06,186
kinda doin' this today the
way Scott and I would do it.
751
00:48:06,253 --> 00:48:11,791
It so much represents my
brother and me... adventuring.
752
00:48:12,959 --> 00:48:17,464
Scott and I always dreamed of
climbing the real thing after
753
00:48:17,531 --> 00:48:20,734
seeing the one at Disneyland
when we were kids.
754
00:48:29,209 --> 00:48:31,211
My mom just passed away
a couple of months ago,
755
00:48:31,278 --> 00:48:34,481
so... up is the way
756
00:48:35,416 --> 00:48:39,286
to see her... and
Scott, for that matter.
757
00:48:45,726 --> 00:48:47,761
Here we are, the summit.
758
00:48:47,828 --> 00:48:49,896
Okay. CAMERAPERSON:
Okay, filming.
759
00:48:49,963 --> 00:48:51,665
- All right, Scott.
760
00:48:55,736 --> 00:48:59,606
We were up here once,
uh... once before together,
761
00:48:59,673 --> 00:49:04,044
and now we're back
again... 28 years later.
762
00:49:05,012 --> 00:49:07,881
You've been smiling
down on us all day.
763
00:49:08,215 --> 00:49:10,484
Climb went really well.
764
00:49:10,550 --> 00:49:12,252
I love you.
765
00:49:57,564 --> 00:50:00,734
That year, Steve
and Rosemarie and I
766
00:50:00,801 --> 00:50:05,372
paid a visit to the head of
the unsolved homicide group,
767
00:50:05,438 --> 00:50:07,774
and he sat us down and he
said, "Right, you know,
768
00:50:07,841 --> 00:50:10,110
"Scott's case will go right
down there at the bottom,
769
00:50:10,177 --> 00:50:11,621
"and we'll get to it
when we get to it.
770
00:50:11,645 --> 00:50:14,681
Probably be three to five
years before we do a review."
771
00:50:17,651 --> 00:50:20,020
How about...
772
00:50:20,087 --> 00:50:22,322
"Okay, now we know what
our marching orders are."
773
00:50:22,389 --> 00:50:24,724
How about, "This has been
so hard on your family."
774
00:50:24,791 --> 00:50:29,596
How about one shred of
decency and consideration,
775
00:50:29,663 --> 00:50:32,433
and just caring what
we're going through?
776
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:35,635
The man couldn't have
been ruder to us.
777
00:50:36,303 --> 00:50:40,373
He told us it had
a zero solvability index.
778
00:50:41,675 --> 00:50:43,377
This sounded ridiculous.
779
00:50:43,444 --> 00:50:46,479
For starters, Scott's case
has never been investigated.
780
00:50:47,648 --> 00:50:51,184
So this meeting now sent
me on a new mission.
64108
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.