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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:11,611 --> 00:00:13,547 - Hello, out there in television land. 2 00:00:13,614 --> 00:00:16,116 Uh, Dad, stop, we are running out of batteries. 3 00:00:16,183 --> 00:00:17,518 - All right. - Tessa, move. 4 00:00:17,584 --> 00:00:19,704 Move. You're gonna be out of the picture. - All right. 5 00:00:19,953 --> 00:00:23,557 Ah, this is great, leftover spaghetti. Yum. 6 00:00:23,624 --> 00:00:26,994 I just really, really miss you 7 00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:29,463 a whole entire bunch. 8 00:00:29,529 --> 00:00:30,797 I miss you. 9 00:00:33,067 --> 00:00:34,611 I always knew that my Uncle Scott 10 00:00:34,635 --> 00:00:38,405 had died in Australia when I was a baby, 11 00:00:38,472 --> 00:00:40,774 and I was probably in middle school 12 00:00:40,841 --> 00:00:45,812 before we started talking about that Scott had apparently killed himself. 13 00:00:48,315 --> 00:00:52,319 It's really challenging to watch your father 14 00:00:52,385 --> 00:00:55,055 just have this open wound. 15 00:00:56,256 --> 00:01:00,094 To watch someone in your family be consumed by grief 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,396 and by unanswered questions for so many years. 17 00:01:04,164 --> 00:01:07,634 It's just this ever-present ghost. 18 00:01:09,870 --> 00:01:13,574 So, to have that viewpoint totally shaken 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,110 about what might have happened to my Uncle Scott, 20 00:01:16,176 --> 00:01:18,211 was really jarring. 21 00:01:20,380 --> 00:01:24,919 As soon as I heard, in 2005, about the similar deaths in Australia, 22 00:01:24,985 --> 00:01:28,756 it seemed really plausible to me that that is how my uncle had died. 23 00:01:29,490 --> 00:01:33,260 That it had not been suicide, but it had been a hate crime. 24 00:01:35,062 --> 00:01:38,065 John Allan Russell, Ross Bradley Warren, 25 00:01:38,131 --> 00:01:39,566 and Gilles Jaques Mattaini 26 00:01:39,633 --> 00:01:42,769 disappeared separately from a popular gay beat at Tamarama. 27 00:01:42,836 --> 00:01:46,239 Police say the cases have striking similarities. 28 00:01:46,740 --> 00:01:49,810 I didn't question that it was possible my uncle had committed suicide 29 00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:54,782 because I think a lot of people have struggles we know nothing about, 30 00:01:54,848 --> 00:01:56,417 but what really upset me, 31 00:01:56,483 --> 00:01:59,220 when it came to light that my uncle likely did not die of suicide, 32 00:01:59,286 --> 00:02:02,322 is how easy it was to dismiss him as a gay man 33 00:02:02,389 --> 00:02:04,191 as having no reason to live. 34 00:02:04,257 --> 00:02:05,692 That was really sad. 35 00:02:05,759 --> 00:02:09,095 The thought that someone with so much to offer the world 36 00:02:09,162 --> 00:02:11,198 and so many people who loved him, 37 00:02:11,765 --> 00:02:15,001 obviously, killed himself because what could he have to live for 38 00:02:15,068 --> 00:02:17,437 is a really sad way to look at it. 39 00:03:05,653 --> 00:03:10,891 This mystery about what happened to my brother 40 00:03:10,957 --> 00:03:14,160 was suddenly clear. 41 00:03:16,229 --> 00:03:20,267 This mystery... that had hung over the family. 42 00:03:22,236 --> 00:03:24,872 I didn't even realize how emotional I was 43 00:03:24,938 --> 00:03:28,642 with this bottled-up question mark until I read these articles 44 00:03:28,709 --> 00:03:33,079 and could see that there was a lot of work to be done. 45 00:03:37,050 --> 00:03:42,455 On my daughter Emma's spring break, 2006, we went to Sydney. 46 00:03:45,091 --> 00:03:48,495 I was 17. I was a senior in high school. 47 00:03:50,230 --> 00:03:51,665 My dad and I were very close, 48 00:03:51,732 --> 00:03:55,168 and I wanted to be there for him and support him, 49 00:03:55,235 --> 00:03:58,138 like he needed someone on his team. 50 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,042 Also, I just wanted to know answers. 51 00:04:02,108 --> 00:04:07,147 I was, I was really invested in finding out more, um. 52 00:04:07,214 --> 00:04:10,116 It seemed clear to me that there was a lot we didn't know. 53 00:04:11,218 --> 00:04:14,988 We visited the spot where my Uncle Scott died. 54 00:04:15,555 --> 00:04:19,693 That part of the trip was very powerful and moving. 55 00:04:21,361 --> 00:04:24,331 It just felt like the start, an important start. 56 00:04:28,802 --> 00:04:30,904 We arrived in Manly. 57 00:04:30,971 --> 00:04:35,609 Where the ferry leaves you off, you can see the cliff where Scott died. 58 00:04:37,044 --> 00:04:39,847 And we marched into the police station 59 00:04:39,913 --> 00:04:44,718 and we sit down with a detective. 60 00:04:44,785 --> 00:04:47,654 We explained all the details of Scott's death, 61 00:04:47,721 --> 00:04:50,457 and he said, "We'll get to the bottom of this." 62 00:04:50,524 --> 00:04:55,463 When we left, I-I-I felt like we'd finally get some action and some answers. 63 00:04:55,830 --> 00:05:00,634 I came back from Australia thinking that Scott's case was finally in good hands. 64 00:05:01,168 --> 00:05:03,771 A detective was working on it. 65 00:05:03,837 --> 00:05:06,907 And every couple of months, I'd send an email, "How are things going?" 66 00:05:06,974 --> 00:05:09,877 And I'd get an email back, "We're still looking for Scott's file." 67 00:05:09,943 --> 00:05:13,580 And then he finally ended up sending me an email that said 68 00:05:13,647 --> 00:05:18,218 his belongings seem to have all been destroyed. 69 00:05:18,919 --> 00:05:22,122 "All the evidence is gone. Sorry, mate." 70 00:05:24,124 --> 00:05:28,762 I start to realize that the police aren't interested in working on this, 71 00:05:28,829 --> 00:05:31,931 that I was gonna have to somehow go it alone 72 00:05:31,998 --> 00:05:36,002 and get proof that'll light a fire under the police. 73 00:05:38,071 --> 00:05:42,509 And in 2007, a mutual friend introduced me to, 74 00:05:42,576 --> 00:05:46,046 uh, an investigative journalist named Dan Glick. 75 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:52,219 Dan was this very sharp journalist 76 00:05:52,285 --> 00:05:54,721 who was really the face of the JonBenét Ramsey case. 77 00:05:54,788 --> 00:05:58,125 Tonight, five months after the killing of JonBenét Ramsey, 78 00:05:58,191 --> 00:06:00,227 there's still no arrest in sight. 79 00:06:00,294 --> 00:06:02,629 Joining us tonight to discuss the latest in the case, 80 00:06:02,696 --> 00:06:05,966 Dan Glick, special correspondent for Newsweek magazine. 81 00:06:06,033 --> 00:06:08,702 I had been a journalist for a long, long time 82 00:06:08,768 --> 00:06:12,606 and I can't say that I specialized investigative journalism. 83 00:06:12,672 --> 00:06:15,476 I had covered a lot of different kinds of things and among them 84 00:06:15,542 --> 00:06:18,078 was the murder of JonBenét Ramsey 85 00:06:18,145 --> 00:06:21,815 that happened 7.3 miles from where I live. 86 00:06:21,882 --> 00:06:23,650 - What made the cops think that, Dan? 87 00:06:23,717 --> 00:06:26,787 It was in the news for over a year. 88 00:06:26,853 --> 00:06:29,423 So, equally intricate case. 89 00:06:29,489 --> 00:06:32,893 - I said, "You want me to look into a 18-year-old 90 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,062 "maybe gay murder in Australia? 91 00:06:35,129 --> 00:06:39,867 I mean, how in the world do you think I'm gonna do anything productive?" 92 00:06:39,933 --> 00:06:43,670 And he said, "Well, just take a look at some of the documents Steve has 93 00:06:43,737 --> 00:06:46,874 and he'd be willing to pay ya to go down there and take a look around." 94 00:06:46,940 --> 00:06:52,079 And so I got some of the documents and I thought I saw a couple angles, 95 00:06:52,146 --> 00:06:55,615 and, um, agreed to meet Steve. 96 00:06:57,484 --> 00:07:01,755 We finally found a chance to meet in Boulder, Colorado. 97 00:07:03,357 --> 00:07:06,693 - Steve showed up driven by a driver, 98 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,029 and it wasn't a, a white stretch limo or anything, 99 00:07:09,096 --> 00:07:10,897 but it was, uh, you know, a town car. 100 00:07:10,964 --> 00:07:13,867 I met him and his daughter Emma. 101 00:07:14,501 --> 00:07:16,303 He wasn't ostentatious at all. 102 00:07:16,370 --> 00:07:18,339 I knew he was, uh, a wealthy guy 103 00:07:18,405 --> 00:07:22,809 and he had made it clear that money was no object in this pursuit. 104 00:07:23,443 --> 00:07:26,280 He was really nice and thoughtful and passionate, 105 00:07:26,347 --> 00:07:29,482 and there was a real sweetness between the two of them. 106 00:07:32,286 --> 00:07:36,022 So, this phantom uncle started emerging, 107 00:07:36,991 --> 00:07:38,625 this ghost of Scott Johnson, 108 00:07:38,692 --> 00:07:41,461 and it started striking me right from the beginning 109 00:07:41,528 --> 00:07:45,099 what a powerful force this was in, in this family, 110 00:07:45,165 --> 00:07:48,235 not just for Steve, but for his children, his wife, 111 00:07:48,302 --> 00:07:50,471 and, you know, obviously, other siblings. 112 00:07:50,538 --> 00:07:54,642 And I told Steve there were a few things I knew I could do, 113 00:07:54,708 --> 00:07:57,577 but that I didn't have a lot of high hopes. 114 00:07:58,979 --> 00:08:00,915 Basically said, "Listen, if I find out that 115 00:08:00,981 --> 00:08:04,084 "I think your brother committed suicide, I'm gonna let ya know that. 116 00:08:04,151 --> 00:08:06,453 "And if I think Scott was murdered, 117 00:08:06,519 --> 00:08:09,055 I'll, I'll pursue him as if he was my own brother." 118 00:08:09,122 --> 00:08:11,992 - I wanted him to be totally honest with me. 119 00:08:12,059 --> 00:08:13,299 I wanted to find out the truth. 120 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,762 - I didn't know Scott, I didn't know Steve. 121 00:08:15,829 --> 00:08:19,366 I had no reason to believe Scott had or hadn't committed suicide 122 00:08:19,432 --> 00:08:22,035 going, going into this, so I went into it, 123 00:08:22,102 --> 00:08:24,804 I think, with a completely open mind. 124 00:08:28,108 --> 00:08:30,577 I had gotten to be really good friends 125 00:08:30,644 --> 00:08:35,782 with Colorado's probably most storied homicide investigator, Lou Schmidt. 126 00:08:35,849 --> 00:08:39,319 I asked him if he would walk me through how you do a cold case investigation 127 00:08:39,386 --> 00:08:42,122 'cause he was, you know, one of the best at it. 128 00:08:42,188 --> 00:08:44,458 He gave me some really great pieces of advice, 129 00:08:44,525 --> 00:08:48,728 and one of 'em was, "Sometimes you just have to stir the pot." 130 00:08:51,498 --> 00:08:57,504 - Dan got on a plane in May of 2007 and flew to Sydney. 131 00:08:59,707 --> 00:09:03,110 I actually remember having a conversation with an Australian woman 132 00:09:03,177 --> 00:09:05,145 who was sitting next to me on the plane, 133 00:09:05,212 --> 00:09:06,913 you know, just why I was goin' down there. 134 00:09:06,980 --> 00:09:08,340 And she said, "Oh, oh, you should, 135 00:09:08,382 --> 00:09:10,422 you should contact my cousin, my brother, somebody." 136 00:09:10,451 --> 00:09:13,987 I mean, so I had a really good sense from the beginning 137 00:09:14,054 --> 00:09:15,889 that people were interested in this. 138 00:09:22,162 --> 00:09:25,099 - A U.S. journalist from Middle America somewhere 139 00:09:25,166 --> 00:09:27,902 wandering into Sydney, good luck with that. 140 00:09:27,968 --> 00:09:29,569 I met him only a few times. 141 00:09:29,636 --> 00:09:32,439 Uh, gave him a bit of guidance on a few bits and pieces, 142 00:09:32,505 --> 00:09:35,075 as Dan didn't quite understand how Sydney worked. 143 00:09:35,142 --> 00:09:37,044 So, part of our early conversations 144 00:09:37,111 --> 00:09:39,346 was to sort of set the scene for the play. 145 00:09:41,882 --> 00:09:46,053 Manly, where Scott died, was a short ferry ride from the city 146 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,621 across the harbor through the Heads, 147 00:09:47,688 --> 00:09:50,490 one of the most beautiful trips you can ever have in the world. 148 00:09:55,128 --> 00:09:58,331 It's the gateway to what we, as kids, and 'cause I grew up out that way, 149 00:09:58,398 --> 00:10:02,369 we call the "Insular Peninsula" for pretty good reason. 150 00:10:02,436 --> 00:10:05,906 You know, swaying palm trees, sea breezes, 151 00:10:05,972 --> 00:10:07,474 barbecue in the backyard, 152 00:10:07,541 --> 00:10:10,010 wander across the road to the beach, have a surf, wander back, 153 00:10:10,077 --> 00:10:11,879 the perfect Australian childhood. 154 00:10:12,580 --> 00:10:15,349 So, that's why it attracted a lot of families. 155 00:10:15,416 --> 00:10:19,486 They didn't travel very much. They had everything they wanted. 156 00:10:21,855 --> 00:10:24,758 As you can see, we're coming up Sydney Road into Manly, 157 00:10:24,825 --> 00:10:26,393 the very imaginatively named street 158 00:10:26,460 --> 00:10:29,129 that used to take you all the way from Manly to Sydney. 159 00:10:29,195 --> 00:10:33,934 We're about to make the glorious right-hand turn towards Manly Wharf. 160 00:10:34,001 --> 00:10:36,469 You can see a glimpse of the beach. 161 00:10:38,338 --> 00:10:40,841 It was basically a meat and potatoes existence. 162 00:10:40,908 --> 00:10:44,711 It wasn't a sophisticated lifestyle. It wasn't a terribly accepting lifestyle. 163 00:10:44,778 --> 00:10:48,783 If you're goin' to be different, the northern beaches wouldn't be your first pick. 164 00:10:50,217 --> 00:10:54,588 Somehow, it seems to me very much like it was in the '50s when I was a girl. 165 00:10:54,655 --> 00:10:58,726 It's completely provincial in Manly for some reason. 166 00:10:58,793 --> 00:11:02,830 It's about the beach, but it's kind of a macho culture. 167 00:11:02,897 --> 00:11:04,264 It's... 168 00:11:04,331 --> 00:11:07,367 Well, culture's probably the wrong emphasis altogether. 169 00:11:08,936 --> 00:11:10,380 You didn't rock the boat. 170 00:11:10,404 --> 00:11:12,105 Back in those days, if you were gay, 171 00:11:12,172 --> 00:11:14,108 you lived very much in a closet. 172 00:11:14,174 --> 00:11:17,644 Families, workmates, no one knows. 173 00:11:18,078 --> 00:11:20,780 It's a different mindset to a lot of Sydney. 174 00:11:22,349 --> 00:11:25,019 - Yeah... I just don't like them. 175 00:11:25,085 --> 00:11:26,620 Why not? 176 00:11:26,687 --> 00:11:30,023 - 'Cause they're invading our country and beaches and everything. 177 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,196 - I suppose they could be... if they tried hard. 178 00:11:36,262 --> 00:11:38,732 - Okay, thank you. - Thank you very much. 179 00:11:42,302 --> 00:11:44,571 - I think Dan walked into all this 180 00:11:44,638 --> 00:11:49,075 not realizing what a pond full of sharks this joint really is. 181 00:11:49,142 --> 00:11:52,312 It was an absolute hornet's nest. 182 00:11:54,748 --> 00:11:56,751 One of the first things I did was, you know, 183 00:11:56,817 --> 00:12:00,153 rented a car and drove up to the northern beaches to Manly. 184 00:12:05,125 --> 00:12:07,961 I was trying to shake the international dateline 185 00:12:08,028 --> 00:12:10,164 from my head and I went out for a run. 186 00:12:10,231 --> 00:12:13,200 I had a vague idea of where Scott died. 187 00:12:13,266 --> 00:12:17,270 I ran up the hill to get a sense of the place. 188 00:12:20,608 --> 00:12:22,142 Once I got up there... 189 00:12:22,810 --> 00:12:26,413 it's an incredibly beautiful place. 190 00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:29,183 This is the grand Pacific. 191 00:12:29,683 --> 00:12:34,688 You can just go for days and not hit any land at all. 192 00:12:34,755 --> 00:12:39,159 So, it has this end of the world feel to it, 193 00:12:39,226 --> 00:12:42,362 even though you're seven miles away from Sydney. 194 00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:46,133 I had seen the aerial photographs. 195 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,502 There were some really distinctive rocks. 196 00:12:49,303 --> 00:12:52,506 And I'm not particularly fearful of heights, 197 00:12:52,573 --> 00:12:54,508 so I just, you know, peered over and it's... 198 00:12:54,575 --> 00:12:58,411 I think they said 60 meters, or just under 200 feet. 199 00:12:58,478 --> 00:13:01,715 It's a sheer drop. It's a scary drop. 200 00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:06,486 It's hard to imagine how horrible it would... 201 00:13:06,553 --> 00:13:10,557 Uh, that moment where you're falling. 202 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:14,627 We don't know the details, 203 00:13:14,694 --> 00:13:19,432 but it was horrific to think about... dying that way. 204 00:13:21,768 --> 00:13:26,173 It was probably the first of many times that I cried, um, 205 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,808 just thinkin' about that. 206 00:13:35,249 --> 00:13:40,087 I kept going on... and kinda hit a, a dead end, 207 00:13:40,153 --> 00:13:42,956 hit a sewage plant, it was a water treatment plant. 208 00:13:43,023 --> 00:13:47,661 And I saw a group of men who were, you know, working by the side of the road. 209 00:13:47,728 --> 00:13:50,464 I said, "Did any of you guys work back here in the '80s?" 210 00:13:50,531 --> 00:13:53,143 And one of 'em said, "Yeah, no, I've been workin' here since the mid-'80s." 211 00:13:53,167 --> 00:13:57,671 I said, "Did gay men ever come up here, you know?" 212 00:13:58,305 --> 00:14:00,340 And he said, "All the time, mate." 213 00:14:00,407 --> 00:14:03,177 And I said I'd never forget that, "All the time, mate." 214 00:14:03,243 --> 00:14:05,612 And he went on to explain that they'd build little n... 215 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,483 What he called "love nests," um, around, around the headland there. 216 00:14:09,549 --> 00:14:11,985 I said, "Would you be willing to tell police this?" 217 00:14:12,052 --> 00:14:13,396 And he said, "Sure." So, I wrote down his number 218 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:16,022 on a... just a scrap of paper. 219 00:14:16,089 --> 00:14:20,760 So, it seemed that, perhaps, the place where Scott died was a beat. 220 00:14:24,531 --> 00:14:27,568 - A gay beat is a public place. 221 00:14:27,635 --> 00:14:31,305 It may be a park, it may be a public lavatory, 222 00:14:31,371 --> 00:14:34,575 it may be part of a beach 223 00:14:34,642 --> 00:14:38,511 where men hang around to pick up other men. 224 00:14:42,683 --> 00:14:44,818 The beats were a club. 225 00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:47,487 You know, if I drove up to Narrabeen, 226 00:14:47,554 --> 00:14:50,558 there would be two or three people there that I knew and so, we would chat, 227 00:14:50,624 --> 00:14:54,828 and I'd have beers, and maybe a bott... few bottles of wine. 228 00:14:54,895 --> 00:14:57,731 And so, we'd have a little party. 229 00:15:01,568 --> 00:15:04,371 You were reasonably certain that anyone on the beat 230 00:15:04,438 --> 00:15:07,741 was there for the purpose of having sex. 231 00:15:13,547 --> 00:15:15,816 Until 1984, in New South Wales, 232 00:15:15,883 --> 00:15:21,088 gay sex was illegal, punishable by... 14 years in jail. 233 00:15:21,155 --> 00:15:24,558 And that's why beats were almost a haven. 234 00:15:24,625 --> 00:15:27,661 Part of the attraction was the anonymity. 235 00:15:27,728 --> 00:15:30,597 You go and do what you wanted to do and no one would ask any questions, 236 00:15:30,664 --> 00:15:32,442 you wouldn't have to make them breakfast in the morning. 237 00:15:32,466 --> 00:15:35,569 There's not much in the way of judgment, utterly anonymous. 238 00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:40,240 Which is why they held so much appeal, also, for happily married men. 239 00:15:46,146 --> 00:15:48,081 When I was young, 240 00:15:48,148 --> 00:15:51,352 the Sunday papers would publish 241 00:15:51,418 --> 00:15:55,088 the name, address, offense, 242 00:15:55,155 --> 00:15:57,191 of all the men who'd been caught 243 00:15:57,258 --> 00:16:00,261 having sex in the railway t... uh, toilets. 244 00:16:00,327 --> 00:16:02,329 It would destroy their life. 245 00:16:02,396 --> 00:16:06,000 If he were married, it might be the end of a marriage, 246 00:16:06,066 --> 00:16:08,535 could certainly destroy a career. 247 00:16:10,537 --> 00:16:12,406 Not everyone who uses it is gay, 248 00:16:12,473 --> 00:16:18,078 but many gays cruise certain public lavatories for instant, anonymous sex. 249 00:16:18,145 --> 00:16:20,681 It's risky, the police may be lurking, 250 00:16:20,748 --> 00:16:24,785 but some gays have had as many as 2,000 encounters in lavatories. 251 00:16:24,852 --> 00:16:27,287 What do you get out of it? 252 00:16:28,455 --> 00:16:31,725 - Um, well, in my case, a sense of adventure, um. 253 00:16:31,792 --> 00:16:35,496 - When you used one, did you make any emotional contact with your partner? 254 00:16:35,562 --> 00:16:38,698 - Not usually, that's almost against the rules. 255 00:16:38,765 --> 00:16:40,901 They're usually anonymous, casual, 256 00:16:40,968 --> 00:16:44,037 uh, almost no words are spoken, if any, 257 00:16:44,104 --> 00:16:47,273 uh, and there's usually no affection shown. 258 00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:51,511 - It seems both incredibly promiscuous and incredibly sordid. 259 00:16:52,979 --> 00:16:54,581 - Well, on the subject of promiscuity, 260 00:16:54,648 --> 00:16:58,252 I'm always reminded of Kinsey's definition of promiscuity. 261 00:16:58,319 --> 00:17:01,188 He said the only way he could define a promiscuous person 262 00:17:01,255 --> 00:17:03,858 was somebody who was having more sex than he was getting. 263 00:17:03,924 --> 00:17:08,295 If I choose to have a lot of sex, I-I think that's my business. 264 00:17:11,098 --> 00:17:13,934 These beats were apparently all over Sydney. 265 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:22,042 One of the things that I'd been able to read 266 00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:27,647 was the testimony of the officer in charge of Scott's inquest. 267 00:17:29,416 --> 00:17:33,887 She said, "No, the place where Scott died was not a beat." 268 00:17:33,954 --> 00:17:38,726 But we were getting multiple independent sources telling us it was a beat, 269 00:17:38,792 --> 00:17:42,696 so that seemed, to me, really solid, you know, that was nailed down. 270 00:17:42,763 --> 00:17:46,700 This was a beat and it was operating at the time of Scott's death. 271 00:17:48,702 --> 00:17:52,406 - Dan calls me on his cellphone and says, "It's a beat, Steve." 272 00:17:52,472 --> 00:17:56,143 And this, by the way, is one kilometer from the police station. 273 00:17:56,210 --> 00:17:58,979 - That started this process of learning, 274 00:17:59,045 --> 00:18:02,649 just... not just that it was a beat, but it was a really popular beat. 275 00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:07,153 Sometimes there were 20 or 30 men up there over the course of a day. 276 00:18:09,023 --> 00:18:11,025 I met a man named Ulo Klemmer. 277 00:18:11,091 --> 00:18:14,228 And Ulo was an outreach worker at the time 278 00:18:14,294 --> 00:18:17,864 doing AIDS education at some of these beats, 279 00:18:17,931 --> 00:18:24,271 and he clearly knew how this beat operated with incredible detail. 280 00:18:25,906 --> 00:18:29,276 First, you struggle up that hill. 281 00:18:29,343 --> 00:18:33,380 Okay... we've got to the wall. 282 00:18:33,447 --> 00:18:36,884 Now, to get into the area, which was the beat, 283 00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:38,451 well, they've extended this. 284 00:18:38,518 --> 00:18:40,387 That used to be just up to this level, 285 00:18:40,454 --> 00:18:42,355 so you had to squeeze through. 286 00:18:42,422 --> 00:18:44,925 You'd throw your towel through if you had a bag or something 287 00:18:44,992 --> 00:18:46,726 and food, you'd throw that through. 288 00:18:46,793 --> 00:18:49,196 It was a tight fit, you had to quite wriggle. 289 00:18:49,263 --> 00:18:50,431 But once you got wriggled, 290 00:18:50,498 --> 00:18:54,134 you knew you were in open, gay space. 291 00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:02,743 There's no housing, there's no people, 292 00:19:02,810 --> 00:19:04,945 not that easy to get to. 293 00:19:05,012 --> 00:19:08,916 It's wooded, it's bushy, it's isolated. 294 00:19:08,983 --> 00:19:11,351 It just felt safe. 295 00:19:15,722 --> 00:19:18,359 Even on a cloudy day in the dead heart of winter, 296 00:19:18,425 --> 00:19:20,594 it's still beautiful here. 297 00:19:23,230 --> 00:19:25,766 People had their particular favorite spot. 298 00:19:25,832 --> 00:19:31,171 They'd come in for sun, uh, socializing, sex maybe. 299 00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:34,174 Some people liked the tan line, some people didn't. 300 00:19:34,241 --> 00:19:37,711 In fact, most men did strip off totally. 301 00:19:37,778 --> 00:19:42,349 So, Scott being naked was not unusual at all. 302 00:19:45,086 --> 00:19:48,288 - Next question was, "Was Scott prone to... 303 00:19:48,355 --> 00:19:50,223 Would he have gone to a beat?" 304 00:19:51,558 --> 00:19:53,527 Was he in such a tight relationship 305 00:19:53,593 --> 00:19:55,362 with his boyfriend that he'd never step out? 306 00:19:55,429 --> 00:19:57,731 Would he have gone hiking there 307 00:19:57,798 --> 00:20:01,068 and stumbled across this beat and been interested? 308 00:20:02,303 --> 00:20:04,872 At the beginning, with Steve's permission, Steve hired me, 309 00:20:04,939 --> 00:20:09,510 I said, "I'm gonna reach out to Scott's partner, Michael, on my own." 310 00:20:09,577 --> 00:20:12,946 I, obviously, I need to ask some very sensitive questions about, 311 00:20:13,013 --> 00:20:16,083 you know, "Did you guys use beats? 312 00:20:16,150 --> 00:20:19,520 Did you know that Scott used beats? How often?" 313 00:20:19,586 --> 00:20:22,422 You know, all these questions because the biggest question 314 00:20:22,489 --> 00:20:24,658 that we all had was, "What happened to Scott 315 00:20:24,725 --> 00:20:28,595 and what was he doin' in Manly that day at a gay beat?" 316 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:31,564 Well... so that was tough. 317 00:20:31,631 --> 00:20:36,269 And then he very, fairly quickly, just turned against me. 318 00:20:37,438 --> 00:20:41,074 I think he thought, "Let's not go there." 319 00:20:43,477 --> 00:20:47,748 - Oh, I was very surprised to find that Scotty had been at a beat, 320 00:20:47,815 --> 00:20:51,351 uh, and it's a well-known beat up on the cliffs there. 321 00:20:52,352 --> 00:20:56,123 To me, this was a bit unlike Scott, but I don't know, 322 00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:58,591 uh, you know, situations of people. 323 00:20:58,658 --> 00:21:04,698 You know, I... in relationships, there are funny moments. 324 00:21:05,265 --> 00:21:06,967 There could have been a lonely time 325 00:21:07,034 --> 00:21:10,637 or something that Scott wanted companionship, I have no idea. 326 00:21:10,704 --> 00:21:13,807 - And so, you know, I, to the extent I could, 327 00:21:13,874 --> 00:21:16,143 uh, tried to find out what I, what I could 328 00:21:16,209 --> 00:21:19,746 about his relationship at that time with Michael. 329 00:21:20,013 --> 00:21:26,020 By all appearances, they were a solid, loving, committed relationship. 330 00:21:26,086 --> 00:21:30,224 We also know they weren't in a strictly monogamous relationship. 331 00:21:30,291 --> 00:21:33,827 I mean, for example, the Golden Gate story, 332 00:21:33,894 --> 00:21:40,300 Michael said that Scott said that he had sex with somebody else. 333 00:21:41,835 --> 00:21:46,974 Apparently, Scott was worried that he had gotten AIDS, felt remorseful, 334 00:21:47,041 --> 00:21:50,276 and therefore, wanted to do himself in. 335 00:21:50,343 --> 00:21:54,447 We also know that Scott had hooked up at least at one beat 336 00:21:54,514 --> 00:21:57,751 at the Macquarie University bathrooms. 337 00:22:00,453 --> 00:22:04,291 I do think Scott and Michael had a committed relationship. 338 00:22:04,358 --> 00:22:07,027 I do think that they were trying pretty hard, 339 00:22:07,094 --> 00:22:10,698 but they're also young men, you know, at, at a time where it's... 340 00:22:10,764 --> 00:22:17,103 You know, brief, anonymous sexual encounters was pretty standard. 341 00:22:20,274 --> 00:22:23,410 Scott was a fairly private individual. 342 00:22:23,477 --> 00:22:28,949 He did not share any such details with 343 00:22:29,016 --> 00:22:31,618 any person that I know. 344 00:22:33,553 --> 00:22:37,057 The only thing I'm aware of is that Scott and Michael 345 00:22:37,124 --> 00:22:40,461 both went to Kambah Pool in Canberra, 346 00:22:40,528 --> 00:22:45,599 which was a nudist area, which had a gay meeting area. 347 00:22:45,866 --> 00:22:52,239 But people went there for sunshine as well as for contact with others. 348 00:22:56,510 --> 00:23:00,947 Once we established the place where Scott died was a gay beat, 349 00:23:01,014 --> 00:23:02,683 then it's a big question mark. 350 00:23:02,750 --> 00:23:07,120 What happened up there on the cliff that day? 351 00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:12,492 One of the things that my friend, the homicide detective, he said, 352 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:16,597 you know, "Get a timeline of his last movements." 353 00:23:17,197 --> 00:23:20,801 Here's what we learned about Scott's last week. 354 00:23:21,435 --> 00:23:24,505 On Saturday, there was a birthday party for him 355 00:23:24,572 --> 00:23:28,308 at his partner's parents' house in Sydney. 356 00:23:28,876 --> 00:23:33,280 The next day, his partner said, "We went to Obelisk Beach," 357 00:23:33,347 --> 00:23:37,318 which is a gay beach in the suburbs of Sydney. 358 00:23:37,384 --> 00:23:41,688 On Monday, Michael drove back to Canberra and left Scott in Sydney 359 00:23:41,755 --> 00:23:45,058 because Scott was gonna be meeting with his professor about his dissertation. 360 00:23:46,026 --> 00:23:49,663 Scott had a meeting with Professor Street on the 7th 361 00:23:49,730 --> 00:23:54,835 in which he wanted to go over his new, elegant solution to his math problem. 362 00:23:54,901 --> 00:23:59,640 - Scott left, uh, his professor's office and the last 363 00:23:59,707 --> 00:24:05,045 physical trace of Scott is an ATM slip that was stamped 364 00:24:05,112 --> 00:24:07,147 that afternoon in downtown Sydney. 365 00:24:07,214 --> 00:24:10,784 So, he went from the pr-professor's to downtown Sydney, 366 00:24:10,851 --> 00:24:13,687 took some money out of the ATM, 367 00:24:13,754 --> 00:24:17,391 and at his partner's parents' house, where he was staying, 368 00:24:17,457 --> 00:24:19,860 his partner's sister remembers hearing Scott come in 369 00:24:19,927 --> 00:24:22,663 around 11 o'clock that Wednesday night. 370 00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:26,400 On Thursday, she got up for work at around six, 371 00:24:26,467 --> 00:24:30,504 and she remembers seeing his feet through a crack in the door, 372 00:24:30,571 --> 00:24:33,840 6:00 A.M., Thursday morning, December 8. 373 00:24:33,907 --> 00:24:38,144 - Michael's sister saw his toes poking out from the bed. 374 00:24:38,211 --> 00:24:40,481 So that, presumably, was Scott, 375 00:24:40,548 --> 00:24:46,219 and presumably, was the last person that we know of that saw Scott alive. 376 00:24:46,286 --> 00:24:49,423 - Around 12, he calls his professor 377 00:24:49,490 --> 00:24:52,826 and goes through the proof of the problem for his dissertation. 378 00:24:52,893 --> 00:24:55,896 His professor says, "Let's meet on Wednesday." 379 00:24:55,962 --> 00:24:58,699 - Around noon that same day, 380 00:24:58,766 --> 00:25:04,805 Scott received a phone call from a friend of Michael's looking for Michael. 381 00:25:05,706 --> 00:25:09,876 He told police later that Scott seemed normal. 382 00:25:11,044 --> 00:25:16,316 - Two days later, Scott's body was found naked at the bottom of this cliff. 383 00:25:17,618 --> 00:25:20,053 As far as what actually happened between 384 00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,690 sometime around noon on December 8th 385 00:25:23,757 --> 00:25:26,860 and mid-morning December 10th, 386 00:25:26,927 --> 00:25:29,029 it's a blank. 387 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,703 After Scott's death, there was a really tiny two-inch story 388 00:25:36,770 --> 00:25:39,539 in the Manly Daily, which was the local newspaper. 389 00:25:39,606 --> 00:25:44,845 Said, "Body on rocks, no suspicious circumstances." 390 00:25:45,546 --> 00:25:49,016 So, I wanted to see if I could find somebody who was still around 391 00:25:49,082 --> 00:25:51,218 who might have written that or knew about it. 392 00:25:51,284 --> 00:25:54,454 Nobody remembered who wrote it, but there was this one reporter. 393 00:25:54,521 --> 00:25:58,392 I just started chattin' him up about, you know, what we were doin' 394 00:25:58,458 --> 00:26:02,996 and what was the scene in Manly back in the day. 395 00:26:03,063 --> 00:26:05,398 And he said, "Do you mind if I do a story on, 396 00:26:05,465 --> 00:26:07,334 you know, you know, what you're up to here?" 397 00:26:07,401 --> 00:26:09,370 And I s-said, "No. Of course not." 398 00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:14,908 - I emailed a picture of Scott and me with the Matterhorn between us 399 00:26:14,975 --> 00:26:17,078 from 1984 when we climbed it, 400 00:26:17,144 --> 00:26:21,915 and that picture appeared on the front page of the Manly Daily the next day 401 00:26:21,982 --> 00:26:25,218 with a huge heading, "Was it murder?" 402 00:26:29,889 --> 00:26:32,759 - Maybe 10 o'clock that morning I got my first call. 403 00:26:43,337 --> 00:26:48,108 Many, many, many, many other men came forward. 404 00:26:48,175 --> 00:26:52,178 In between interviews, I'd call Steve and very quickly, 405 00:26:52,245 --> 00:26:53,880 our relationship kind of just changed. 406 00:26:53,947 --> 00:26:56,516 We were, you know, co-conspirators rather than, you know, 407 00:26:56,583 --> 00:26:59,162 like, "Oh, Mr. Johnson, I have a report for you today." 408 00:26:59,186 --> 00:27:00,854 - Dan and I really hit it off. 409 00:27:00,921 --> 00:27:02,556 We talked all the time. 410 00:27:03,691 --> 00:27:08,928 After the article, he talked to this one fellow nicknamed Saidy. 411 00:27:09,529 --> 00:27:12,432 He told me his story. 412 00:27:13,299 --> 00:27:16,737 He had been up there, he had gone to this beat, 413 00:27:16,804 --> 00:27:18,172 he had met a man. 414 00:27:18,706 --> 00:27:22,209 They had consensual sex and then, the man stabbed him 415 00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:24,077 in the back with a Bowie knife. 416 00:27:24,144 --> 00:27:27,982 And Saidy ended up walking down the hill to the hospital 417 00:27:28,048 --> 00:27:31,151 with a Bowie knife stickin' out of his back. 418 00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:36,423 He pulled up his shirt and he showed me the scar. 419 00:27:36,490 --> 00:27:39,726 Apparently, missed his spinal cord by, you know, millimeters. 420 00:27:40,194 --> 00:27:46,267 And I just thought about how the police unequivocally said this was not a beat. 421 00:27:47,268 --> 00:27:49,937 The investigating officer said this is not an area 422 00:27:50,003 --> 00:27:51,705 that homosexuals frequent 423 00:27:51,772 --> 00:27:57,578 because if it were, then we would've gotten reports of violence there. 424 00:27:57,644 --> 00:27:58,912 No one said this was a beat. 425 00:27:58,979 --> 00:28:02,549 No one said there's violence all over town at these places. 426 00:28:02,616 --> 00:28:06,987 - Now, a phenomenon increasingly familiar in all our major cities, 427 00:28:07,054 --> 00:28:09,323 groups of youngsters beating up other youngsters 428 00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:13,426 because they look or act as if they may be homosexual. 429 00:28:15,862 --> 00:28:19,467 - Well, it was just about here. They sort of threw me against the wall. 430 00:28:19,533 --> 00:28:22,669 Um, a few punches, few headbutts in further, 431 00:28:22,736 --> 00:28:26,540 suffered a few bruises, uh, two broken cheeks, and a broken nose. 432 00:28:27,474 --> 00:28:30,344 It was a time of immense crisis. 433 00:28:30,411 --> 00:28:35,215 Any gay man who had been living in S-Surry Hills or Darlinghurst 434 00:28:35,282 --> 00:28:37,985 for longer than two years had been beaten up at least once, 435 00:28:38,052 --> 00:28:39,753 almost without exception. 436 00:28:48,795 --> 00:28:50,997 - I was, um, just walking down, minding my own business 437 00:28:51,064 --> 00:28:54,168 and I looked up and there was about six guys surrounding me 438 00:28:54,234 --> 00:28:56,136 and started hitting me, calling me a poofter. 439 00:28:56,203 --> 00:28:59,773 The guy came up and just kicked me on my side of the chest 440 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,808 and then he kicked me in the face. 441 00:29:01,875 --> 00:29:04,744 And, um, I just don't go out anymore. 442 00:29:04,811 --> 00:29:07,414 I'm just terrified to walk around now. 443 00:29:10,317 --> 00:29:14,021 The violence has been going on forever, 444 00:29:14,088 --> 00:29:17,558 but it got a focus and a, and an impetus 445 00:29:17,624 --> 00:29:21,528 from the nastiness in the '80s around AIDS, 446 00:29:21,595 --> 00:29:26,099 in which we were seen as being dangerous. 447 00:29:27,168 --> 00:29:28,936 There was rumors draggin' around, 448 00:29:29,003 --> 00:29:31,972 you know, "If they breathe on me, if they touch me, I can get AIDS." 449 00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:33,207 All complete crap. 450 00:29:33,274 --> 00:29:36,276 And then enter the Grim Reaper campaign. 451 00:29:38,411 --> 00:29:41,749 At first, only gays and IV drug users 452 00:29:41,815 --> 00:29:43,783 were being killed by AIDS. 453 00:29:44,351 --> 00:29:47,787 But now we know every one of us could be devastated by it. 454 00:29:50,123 --> 00:29:52,392 - That was the mood we were living in. 455 00:29:52,926 --> 00:29:55,128 I turned 40, 456 00:29:55,195 --> 00:29:59,032 and I was diagnosed with HIV. 457 00:29:59,099 --> 00:30:00,600 Carry the AIDS virus... 458 00:30:00,667 --> 00:30:03,403 So, I certainly remember the Grim Reaper commercial. 459 00:30:04,638 --> 00:30:09,075 The message was we were the Grim Reaper. 460 00:30:09,776 --> 00:30:11,512 We were the danger. 461 00:30:11,578 --> 00:30:14,381 It could kill more Australians than... 462 00:30:14,447 --> 00:30:17,017 Gay men, and particularly, gay men with HIV 463 00:30:17,084 --> 00:30:20,421 were gonna kill these nice, straight people. 464 00:30:20,488 --> 00:30:23,590 What do you think of people who bash up gays? 465 00:30:23,657 --> 00:30:25,425 - It's their own decision. 466 00:30:25,492 --> 00:30:27,895 Do you think it's right or wrong? 467 00:30:27,961 --> 00:30:29,229 - I don't really care. 468 00:30:29,296 --> 00:30:30,673 - Does it worry you at all? - No. 469 00:30:30,697 --> 00:30:32,799 - Would you do it yourself? - Yeah. 470 00:30:32,866 --> 00:30:34,234 - You would? - Yeah. 471 00:30:34,301 --> 00:30:35,969 - Have you done it? - Once. 472 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:37,638 Why? 473 00:30:37,705 --> 00:30:39,239 - 'Cause he touched me. 474 00:30:39,673 --> 00:30:43,577 - They must have some disorder in their mental minds, right? 475 00:30:43,643 --> 00:30:47,480 Because otherwise, they wouldn't be having sex with other men. 476 00:30:49,583 --> 00:30:54,854 - These people thought gay men were disgusting and fair game. 477 00:30:54,921 --> 00:30:56,623 And we've been told that all our lives 478 00:30:56,690 --> 00:31:00,727 from our... by our parents, by our peers, by religious leaders. 479 00:31:01,361 --> 00:31:03,630 The, uh, homosexual is both, 480 00:31:03,697 --> 00:31:08,301 in my opinion, offensive, obscene, and also blasphemous. 481 00:31:10,837 --> 00:31:12,639 Two men don't constitute a family. 482 00:31:12,706 --> 00:31:16,843 God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. 483 00:31:16,910 --> 00:31:19,546 - Fate of the practicing homosexual. 484 00:31:19,913 --> 00:31:24,117 - Bashers took the view that they were doing God's work. 485 00:31:24,751 --> 00:31:28,021 That they were doing the right th... They had an excuse for doing it. 486 00:31:30,557 --> 00:31:35,662 - We were learning about a pattern of violence against 487 00:31:35,729 --> 00:31:40,601 gay men in that time, uh, in, in the greater Sydney area. 488 00:31:40,668 --> 00:31:44,771 They were really violent, violent attacks. 489 00:31:47,441 --> 00:31:51,612 This guy told me this story that I just, you know, never forget. 490 00:31:51,678 --> 00:31:54,982 He said, "I was with the person I had hooked up with 491 00:31:55,049 --> 00:31:57,050 "and we heard a bunch of bashers coming, 492 00:31:57,117 --> 00:31:59,987 "and we knew they were comin' for us. 493 00:32:00,053 --> 00:32:02,056 Do we run or do we fight?" 494 00:32:02,656 --> 00:32:06,360 And his mate said, "I'm a better runner than I'm a fighter." 495 00:32:06,427 --> 00:32:08,695 And they took off in opposite directions. 496 00:32:08,762 --> 00:32:11,798 And the guy who was telling me the story got away, 497 00:32:12,466 --> 00:32:14,000 and, uh, 498 00:32:14,734 --> 00:32:19,406 he... his, his partner got caught and was bashed, 499 00:32:19,472 --> 00:32:22,176 and he didn't know how badly 'cause he ran away. 500 00:32:22,576 --> 00:32:27,214 And he said, "Every time I see a guy in a wheelchair about my age, 501 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,748 I wonder if it's him." 502 00:32:33,053 --> 00:32:36,556 Back in those days, I was pretty ignorant of what was going on. 503 00:32:36,623 --> 00:32:39,359 Think as a young, gay man and a, particularly, a detective, 504 00:32:39,426 --> 00:32:42,029 you know, I didn't frequent beats, I knew nothing about it. 505 00:32:42,096 --> 00:32:43,831 So, maybe that's one of the reasons 506 00:32:43,897 --> 00:32:47,134 I can still remember this one incident with such great clarity. 507 00:32:48,101 --> 00:32:53,340 I think it was the summer of '80, '81 from memory, um. 508 00:32:53,407 --> 00:32:57,411 We got called to a bashing, an old fella, late 50s I suppose, 509 00:32:57,477 --> 00:33:00,313 in the lavatory at the Collaroy Surf Club. 510 00:33:01,882 --> 00:33:04,618 They'd found him face down in the urinal. 511 00:33:04,684 --> 00:33:06,119 He'd been so badly beaten, 512 00:33:06,186 --> 00:33:09,556 they'd actually tried to kick his head through the, uh, drain hole. 513 00:33:10,791 --> 00:33:13,293 His eyebrow had been torn off, 514 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,505 and we found the eyebrow actually sitting in the toilet. 515 00:33:15,529 --> 00:33:18,098 Just one of those awful things you'll never get out of your head. 516 00:33:18,165 --> 00:33:20,200 And he was more terrified of us 517 00:33:20,267 --> 00:33:23,570 than he was of the people who'd assaulted him. 518 00:33:23,637 --> 00:33:26,406 I was actually, uh, stabbed with a knife. 519 00:33:26,473 --> 00:33:29,543 I reported it to the police and I got no support 520 00:33:29,609 --> 00:33:31,087 - from them whatsoever. - What did they do? 521 00:33:31,111 --> 00:33:33,313 What did they say? - Um, 522 00:33:33,380 --> 00:33:35,382 "Oh, it's your own fault. 523 00:33:35,449 --> 00:33:38,885 "You're a, you're a fag, you know, you're a faggot. 524 00:33:38,952 --> 00:33:42,188 You know, you gotta live with that. It's your problem." 525 00:33:43,357 --> 00:33:45,292 In the 1980s, 526 00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:48,128 I was an investigator with internal affairs, 527 00:33:48,195 --> 00:33:52,466 and I remember one investigation into a police officer 528 00:33:52,533 --> 00:33:55,803 who was actually bashing gay people. 529 00:33:55,869 --> 00:33:57,271 It was taken very seriously 530 00:33:57,338 --> 00:33:59,806 and the person was subsequently charged. 531 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,443 But at the time, there was a culture 532 00:34:02,509 --> 00:34:05,145 of turning a blind eye to improper conduct, 533 00:34:05,212 --> 00:34:11,618 whether it be corrupt conduct, criminal conduct, or unethical behavior. 534 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,990 - One in five poofs is beaten up because of their sexuality. 535 00:34:17,057 --> 00:34:19,259 This sort of violence is intended... 536 00:34:19,326 --> 00:34:24,197 All over Sydney in the 1980s and into the 1990s, 537 00:34:24,264 --> 00:34:27,735 there were hoodlums going to these places gay men would go 538 00:34:27,801 --> 00:34:29,502 and assaulting them. 539 00:34:30,804 --> 00:34:35,675 It really brought the horror of Scott's death to life. 540 00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:41,057 It was a learning process for Steve 541 00:34:41,081 --> 00:34:45,252 because he didn't know about gay bashings, or beats, or any of this. 542 00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:50,724 Once we had a better understanding of the climate and, and, and the, um, 543 00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:53,126 violence that was out there, 544 00:34:53,193 --> 00:34:56,830 it, it, it was... I was... Just felt sick to my stomach. 545 00:34:58,565 --> 00:35:02,169 The proportion of this violence started 546 00:35:02,235 --> 00:35:05,705 shifting the suicide, not suicide, probability 547 00:35:05,772 --> 00:35:10,277 in a really significant way that Scott had probably been murdered. 548 00:35:11,478 --> 00:35:16,150 - How could the police not have suspected murder right off the bat? 549 00:35:16,217 --> 00:35:19,253 Scott was naked at a beat. 550 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,221 No detective in his right mind 551 00:35:21,287 --> 00:35:25,158 would've gone up there and said, "Maybe he suicided." 552 00:35:27,895 --> 00:35:31,831 After the Scott Johnson case, I had moved on. 553 00:35:31,898 --> 00:35:38,104 In fact, my police career ended in 1996 when I was basically 32 years old. 554 00:35:40,774 --> 00:35:42,709 I never did think about North Head 555 00:35:42,776 --> 00:35:45,146 or about Scott Johnson again 556 00:35:45,212 --> 00:35:47,081 until over 20 years later 557 00:35:47,147 --> 00:35:50,684 when I had Daniel Glick reaching out to me. 558 00:35:50,751 --> 00:35:53,687 Dan was asking me about gay beats. 559 00:35:55,255 --> 00:35:58,325 I didn't know that North Head was a gay beat, 560 00:35:58,392 --> 00:36:00,627 was not aware of it. I-I can't a... I can't ask. 561 00:36:00,694 --> 00:36:04,632 I-I, I don't know. I-I, I just was not aware of that, 562 00:36:04,698 --> 00:36:09,870 and, um, I grew up in the area, too, and I never ever, ever knew that. 563 00:36:10,604 --> 00:36:14,241 And maybe I was naive... I just didn't know. 564 00:36:16,543 --> 00:36:20,981 There had been times when I had found couples of the same sex in a motor car 565 00:36:21,047 --> 00:36:23,751 in the parking area of North Head. 566 00:36:24,285 --> 00:36:26,954 But I did know for a fact that 567 00:36:27,020 --> 00:36:31,558 the cliffs along there were regular places where people chose to commit suicide. 568 00:36:31,625 --> 00:36:35,128 The conclusion that I drew at the time was a suicide. 569 00:36:38,365 --> 00:36:43,737 I was of the belief, at the time, that Scott Johnson had come, 570 00:36:43,803 --> 00:36:45,806 stripped his clothes off, 571 00:36:45,873 --> 00:36:47,350 neatly fold 'em at the top of the cliff, 572 00:36:47,374 --> 00:36:49,510 placed his identification on top, 573 00:36:49,577 --> 00:36:51,311 so that his identity could be revealed. 574 00:36:51,378 --> 00:36:53,747 He then went to the edge of the cliff some 40 meters away 575 00:36:53,814 --> 00:36:57,918 and made the choice to end his life by jumping from that cliff. 576 00:36:58,819 --> 00:37:03,323 - The story was that the clothes were neatly folded to military precision, 577 00:37:03,390 --> 00:37:06,626 which was evidence for ritual suicide. 578 00:37:07,227 --> 00:37:09,430 - They said, "Ah, great. Golden Gate Bridge. 579 00:37:09,496 --> 00:37:14,134 Ah, ritual suicide, folding the clothes, we're done." 580 00:37:14,201 --> 00:37:19,506 One of the problems in all of this murkiness 581 00:37:19,573 --> 00:37:23,277 is that there was no picture of this... the clothes 582 00:37:23,344 --> 00:37:27,748 in this meticulously folded, noteworthy way. 583 00:37:27,814 --> 00:37:31,485 - So, there was one aerial photograph of the scene up on top, 584 00:37:31,552 --> 00:37:35,189 and you could see this little blue speck behind the tree 585 00:37:35,255 --> 00:37:36,757 where Scott's clothes were 586 00:37:37,458 --> 00:37:40,493 about 30 feet from the edge of the cliff. 587 00:37:41,895 --> 00:37:45,499 The police picked up the clothes without photographing them. 588 00:37:45,833 --> 00:37:48,568 And so, we have two photographs 589 00:37:48,635 --> 00:37:51,371 where the clothes are all laid out down in the parking lot 590 00:37:51,438 --> 00:37:54,241 and they carted the clothes away. 591 00:37:54,842 --> 00:37:57,277 - That was a cock-up, yes. 592 00:37:57,344 --> 00:37:59,913 The clothing should've been photographed 593 00:37:59,980 --> 00:38:02,983 in the position in which it was found, 594 00:38:03,050 --> 00:38:05,118 in its untouched state. 595 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,922 So, it was an error at the time, a rookie error. 596 00:38:09,356 --> 00:38:13,093 It was just, unfortunately, one that happened in this instance. 597 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,594 - What's goin' on here? 598 00:38:14,661 --> 00:38:18,132 All of these things just keep sort of snowballing, 599 00:38:18,198 --> 00:38:22,036 uh, to this incredibly, uh, 600 00:38:22,103 --> 00:38:25,805 complex picture of incompetence at least 601 00:38:25,872 --> 00:38:28,575 and, worse, we still don't know. 602 00:38:29,242 --> 00:38:32,979 It just struck me at their inadequacy. 603 00:38:33,046 --> 00:38:37,284 - Yeah, well, okay. Dan Glick isn't held in very high regard, 604 00:38:37,351 --> 00:38:41,221 from my perspective, 'cause he was trying 605 00:38:42,155 --> 00:38:45,860 to move... the whole theory 606 00:38:45,926 --> 00:38:48,529 that Scott... had suicided. 607 00:38:48,595 --> 00:38:53,600 I indicated to him that there was no evidence 608 00:38:53,667 --> 00:38:58,638 that had ever been presented to me to indicate that murder was involved. 609 00:38:58,705 --> 00:39:04,645 Daniel was just hell-bent on twisting my words 610 00:39:04,711 --> 00:39:08,916 and arriving at an outcome for his paying client, 611 00:39:08,983 --> 00:39:10,450 was the opinion that I formed, 612 00:39:10,517 --> 00:39:14,821 and I severed any further communications with him after that. 613 00:39:14,888 --> 00:39:18,558 - Yeah, I was gettin' paid for it and I wouldn't have done it for free, 614 00:39:18,625 --> 00:39:24,497 but I felt like I was workin' for Scott, um, you know, and truth and justice. 615 00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:31,672 I ended up doing a lot of research in medical literature into suicide 616 00:39:31,739 --> 00:39:36,944 and committing suicide by jumping is, first of all, rare. 617 00:39:37,011 --> 00:39:40,914 Doing it, uh, naked is almost unheard of. 618 00:39:40,981 --> 00:39:43,650 Naked suicide? Almost nonexistent. 619 00:39:43,717 --> 00:39:48,055 - It's unusual for suicide, uh, for no clothing on a body. 620 00:39:48,122 --> 00:39:52,192 Uh, on the other hand... it can occur, at times. 621 00:39:52,259 --> 00:39:54,528 I've certainly seen it, at times, where 622 00:39:54,594 --> 00:39:58,098 there's been no doubt that it's been a suicide, 623 00:39:58,164 --> 00:40:00,800 but it's, it's a bit unusual, I have to admit. 624 00:40:05,639 --> 00:40:08,909 I learned that there was an unsolved homicide group, 625 00:40:08,976 --> 00:40:13,747 and I said, "Hey, um, think we've got some credible new information for you, 626 00:40:13,814 --> 00:40:15,849 you know, what should we do?" 627 00:40:16,250 --> 00:40:19,920 And they said, "Yeah, but, you know, you're a civilian. 628 00:40:19,987 --> 00:40:25,559 We need, you know, police investigation to, to get new evidence." 629 00:40:25,626 --> 00:40:28,762 And I said, "Okay, right. How do we do that?" 630 00:40:28,829 --> 00:40:31,098 He said, "Oh, well, actually you can't 631 00:40:31,164 --> 00:40:33,800 because the police can't investigate a suicide." 632 00:40:33,867 --> 00:40:36,303 So, was just like this catch-22. 633 00:40:40,207 --> 00:40:42,043 Dan came back to America, 634 00:40:42,109 --> 00:40:46,613 and then we pulled everything that we've learned together in a 12-page report. 635 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,851 We thought it was definitive. It was conclusive. Rock-solid evidence. 636 00:40:50,918 --> 00:40:54,688 This was a beat, there was violence all over town in the 1980s. 637 00:40:54,755 --> 00:40:59,259 The police now can get to work with a homicide investigation. 638 00:40:59,326 --> 00:41:02,129 We just sent it out thinking they would read that 639 00:41:02,196 --> 00:41:05,198 and go, "Oh, sorry, mate, we really screwed that up, 640 00:41:05,265 --> 00:41:06,867 you know, we'll get right on it." 641 00:41:06,934 --> 00:41:09,803 Uh, instead, we were dead in the water. 642 00:41:11,071 --> 00:41:14,317 I think the New South Wales police force didn't like Steve Johnson very much 643 00:41:14,341 --> 00:41:17,677 because all of a sudden, you've got a, a very smart bloke, 644 00:41:17,744 --> 00:41:22,182 a bloke with a big... very deep pockets, is questioning what they've done. 645 00:41:25,619 --> 00:41:29,222 Cops back in those days, everyone was generally white. 646 00:41:29,289 --> 00:41:32,859 When I started at Manly, there were no policewomen at all. 647 00:41:32,926 --> 00:41:34,561 It's a brotherhood. 648 00:41:34,628 --> 00:41:37,428 You don't rat on your brother and you're there to protect your brother. 649 00:41:38,832 --> 00:41:41,768 Steve was just pushing and pushing and pushing. 650 00:41:41,835 --> 00:41:43,980 He didn't take a backward step, he was asking question... 651 00:41:44,004 --> 00:41:45,806 He was really bloody irritating. 652 00:41:45,873 --> 00:41:48,909 The cops are having their entire investigation questioned. 653 00:41:48,976 --> 00:41:50,677 They don't like being questioned. 654 00:41:51,511 --> 00:41:53,831 It just seemed like every time Steve reached out 655 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,182 they would say, "Why can't this guy just, like, let it go? 656 00:41:56,249 --> 00:42:00,020 His brother's gone. Um, nothing's gonna bring him back." 657 00:42:00,087 --> 00:42:02,356 But it was real. 658 00:42:02,422 --> 00:42:06,293 There was a real, real crime possibly that happened. 659 00:42:06,359 --> 00:42:09,229 Didn't know... We just didn't know what to do. 660 00:42:11,765 --> 00:42:14,601 Look how beautiful the sailboats are, honey. 661 00:42:15,369 --> 00:42:18,739 See those sail boats? On your left. 662 00:42:18,806 --> 00:42:21,007 I was running a company at the time. 663 00:42:21,074 --> 00:42:23,643 I got my three kids that I'm raising. 664 00:42:25,445 --> 00:42:27,380 And we just kept waiting. 665 00:42:27,447 --> 00:42:30,250 Dad's getting ready to take pictures. 666 00:42:30,317 --> 00:42:32,762 We kept waiting and prompting and waiting and prompting, 667 00:42:32,786 --> 00:42:36,323 and we continued not to hear anything for years. 668 00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:39,826 Emma just had her prom last night. How t'was it? 669 00:42:39,893 --> 00:42:41,428 - T'was it? CHILD: Ah, whatever. 670 00:42:41,495 --> 00:42:43,964 Just answer the question. - It was good. 671 00:42:44,030 --> 00:42:47,034 T'was good. CHILD: What did you wear? Did you wear anything dorky? 672 00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:51,605 Yes. - I wore a beautiful tuxedo, 1840s. 673 00:42:51,671 --> 00:42:53,840 I came out when I was 14. 674 00:42:53,907 --> 00:42:57,277 And for me, being queer has always been a profound joy. 675 00:42:59,013 --> 00:43:01,348 I've thought a lot about the relationship 676 00:43:01,415 --> 00:43:05,419 my Uncle Scott and I could've had across generations, 677 00:43:05,485 --> 00:43:08,556 talking about our identities and how the world had changed, 678 00:43:08,622 --> 00:43:10,924 and how we were both navigating those things. 679 00:43:13,827 --> 00:43:16,329 As a teenager, I was so invested 680 00:43:16,396 --> 00:43:18,499 and for me, I couldn't, I couldn't maintain 681 00:43:18,565 --> 00:43:22,069 that level of emotional involvement every day, 682 00:43:22,135 --> 00:43:26,206 you know, for... the whole 17 years since then. 683 00:43:26,273 --> 00:43:31,144 I had to detach a little more, but my dad has never detached. 684 00:43:34,614 --> 00:43:38,351 By the end of the year, we were just stuck. 685 00:43:38,418 --> 00:43:40,854 I told Steve, "I don't know what else I could do." 686 00:43:40,921 --> 00:43:42,989 Steve didn't know what else he could do. 687 00:43:43,056 --> 00:43:45,759 We just... stopped 688 00:43:49,462 --> 00:43:50,497 until 689 00:43:52,166 --> 00:43:54,634 January 2011. 690 00:43:56,403 --> 00:44:00,040 There's a very popular Facebook page called, 691 00:44:00,107 --> 00:44:02,375 "Gay Marriage in Australia," 692 00:44:02,442 --> 00:44:04,345 and somebody posted on there, 693 00:44:04,411 --> 00:44:08,582 "I hereby confess to killing Scott Johnson." 694 00:44:10,684 --> 00:44:15,355 Somebody saw this post, did some Googling, and emailed Dan, 695 00:44:15,422 --> 00:44:20,428 "Hey, somebody confessed to that murder you wrote about in 2007." 696 00:44:21,028 --> 00:44:23,631 I was on vacation in Argentina, 697 00:44:23,697 --> 00:44:28,969 and I woke up to an email that said, "Scott Johnson Murder Confessor." 698 00:44:29,503 --> 00:44:34,407 Obviously, I had no idea if this was a hoax or what. 699 00:44:38,578 --> 00:44:40,290 At this point, I didn't even bother with the police. 700 00:44:40,314 --> 00:44:42,149 I sent it to the New South Wales coroner. 701 00:44:42,215 --> 00:44:46,520 She responded right away, "We're on it, thanks." 702 00:44:46,587 --> 00:44:50,290 Couple months go by, I come back from Argentina. 703 00:44:51,124 --> 00:44:53,593 "Hey, anything?" 704 00:44:53,660 --> 00:44:56,897 So that's when, you know, I took my next trip to Sydney 705 00:44:56,963 --> 00:45:01,668 to, um, as Lou Schmidt would've put it, "Stir the pot again." 706 00:45:03,070 --> 00:45:05,105 The police did end up investigating. 707 00:45:05,171 --> 00:45:07,842 We met with one officer who was put in charge. 708 00:45:07,908 --> 00:45:12,779 I went over all the materials with him just point by point by point. 709 00:45:13,380 --> 00:45:16,483 - He managed to get to the bottom of the Facebook confession. 710 00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:20,454 Turned out to be a 14-year-old local kid who lived in Manly. 711 00:45:20,521 --> 00:45:26,192 For some reason, confessed to killing Scott Johnson way before he was born. 712 00:45:26,861 --> 00:45:28,762 So that was a dead end. 713 00:45:30,063 --> 00:45:32,533 - This Facebook confession ends up being a hoax, 714 00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:36,403 but that got officials to pay attention to this. 715 00:45:38,071 --> 00:45:43,243 April 2012, I get a phone call from the New South Wales police. 716 00:45:43,310 --> 00:45:45,913 The coroner's decided to have another inquest. 717 00:45:45,980 --> 00:45:50,350 There would be a second inquest, and that was huge. 718 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,358 - Now, maybe they would see that it's not somebody just being irrational, 719 00:45:58,425 --> 00:46:00,427 somebody who couldn't let go. 720 00:46:00,494 --> 00:46:01,695 That was big. 721 00:46:05,232 --> 00:46:08,134 The second inquest was fairly pro forma, 722 00:46:08,201 --> 00:46:12,572 going through all this review of our materials. 723 00:46:14,474 --> 00:46:18,311 The coroner made an open finding in the second inquest. 724 00:46:18,378 --> 00:46:22,349 By making an open finding, the coroner was, potentially, 725 00:46:22,416 --> 00:46:24,718 of the belief that there could be some more evidence there 726 00:46:24,784 --> 00:46:27,721 that needed to be further investigated by the police. 727 00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:33,293 The coroner ruled there's not enough information to conclude 728 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,997 homicide versus suicide versus accident, 729 00:46:37,064 --> 00:46:40,467 so she referred it to unsolved homicides. 730 00:46:44,504 --> 00:46:50,443 This was finally an official in Australia saying that Scott's case mattered 731 00:46:50,510 --> 00:46:52,379 and that it needed to be investigated, 732 00:46:52,446 --> 00:46:56,250 and, furthermore, our investigation was totally vindicated. 733 00:46:56,316 --> 00:46:59,519 We were really, incredibly happy. 734 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,925 To reopen the case after all these years is incredibly... gratifying. 735 00:47:04,992 --> 00:47:07,294 - Today's findings amount to a stinging attack 736 00:47:07,361 --> 00:47:09,562 on the original police investigation. 737 00:47:09,629 --> 00:47:13,233 - The police made a quick determination of, of what they thought happened 738 00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:15,135 and turned out that they were wrong. 739 00:47:16,537 --> 00:47:18,305 That felt like such a victory 740 00:47:18,372 --> 00:47:22,676 just to have someone in authority acknowledge 741 00:47:22,742 --> 00:47:27,948 that we weren't being hysterical or, you know, just causing problems, 742 00:47:28,014 --> 00:47:33,153 that actually there had been... a sort of dereliction of duty 743 00:47:33,220 --> 00:47:36,523 and that they didn't properly investigate it. 744 00:47:37,357 --> 00:47:41,328 That was really meaningful to hear that acknowledged. 745 00:47:45,432 --> 00:47:47,034 After the second inquest, 746 00:47:47,101 --> 00:47:50,704 it seemed time for something that I had planned to do since he died, 747 00:47:50,771 --> 00:47:56,410 and always waited until his case was taken seriously, 748 00:47:56,477 --> 00:47:59,379 which was to scatter Scott's ashes. 749 00:47:59,747 --> 00:48:00,947 Well... 750 00:48:01,715 --> 00:48:06,186 kinda doin' this today the way Scott and I would do it. 751 00:48:06,253 --> 00:48:11,791 It so much represents my brother and me... adventuring. 752 00:48:12,959 --> 00:48:17,464 Scott and I always dreamed of climbing the real thing after 753 00:48:17,531 --> 00:48:20,734 seeing the one at Disneyland when we were kids. 754 00:48:29,209 --> 00:48:31,211 My mom just passed away a couple of months ago, 755 00:48:31,278 --> 00:48:34,481 so... up is the way 756 00:48:35,416 --> 00:48:39,286 to see her... and Scott, for that matter. 757 00:48:45,726 --> 00:48:47,761 Here we are, the summit. 758 00:48:47,828 --> 00:48:49,896 Okay. CAMERAPERSON: Okay, filming. 759 00:48:49,963 --> 00:48:51,665 - All right, Scott. 760 00:48:55,736 --> 00:48:59,606 We were up here once, uh... once before together, 761 00:48:59,673 --> 00:49:04,044 and now we're back again... 28 years later. 762 00:49:05,012 --> 00:49:07,881 You've been smiling down on us all day. 763 00:49:08,215 --> 00:49:10,484 Climb went really well. 764 00:49:10,550 --> 00:49:12,252 I love you. 765 00:49:57,564 --> 00:50:00,734 That year, Steve and Rosemarie and I 766 00:50:00,801 --> 00:50:05,372 paid a visit to the head of the unsolved homicide group, 767 00:50:05,438 --> 00:50:07,774 and he sat us down and he said, "Right, you know, 768 00:50:07,841 --> 00:50:10,110 "Scott's case will go right down there at the bottom, 769 00:50:10,177 --> 00:50:11,621 "and we'll get to it when we get to it. 770 00:50:11,645 --> 00:50:14,681 Probably be three to five years before we do a review." 771 00:50:17,651 --> 00:50:20,020 How about... 772 00:50:20,087 --> 00:50:22,322 "Okay, now we know what our marching orders are." 773 00:50:22,389 --> 00:50:24,724 How about, "This has been so hard on your family." 774 00:50:24,791 --> 00:50:29,596 How about one shred of decency and consideration, 775 00:50:29,663 --> 00:50:32,433 and just caring what we're going through? 776 00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:35,635 The man couldn't have been ruder to us. 777 00:50:36,303 --> 00:50:40,373 He told us it had a zero solvability index. 778 00:50:41,675 --> 00:50:43,377 This sounded ridiculous. 779 00:50:43,444 --> 00:50:46,479 For starters, Scott's case has never been investigated. 780 00:50:47,648 --> 00:50:51,184 So this meeting now sent me on a new mission. 64108

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