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[ Horn Honks ]
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[ Shawn Narrating ]The life of a playwright is tough.
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It's not easy,as some people seem to think.
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You work hard writing plays,and nobody puts them on.
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You take up other lines of workto try to make a living-
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I became an actor-
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and people don't hire you.
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So you just spend your daysdoing the errands of your trade.
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Today I'd had to be upby 10:00 in the morning...
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to make someimportant phone calls.
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Then I'd gone to the stationery storeto buy envelopes. Then to the Xerox shop.
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There were dozens of things to do.
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By 5:00 I'd finally made itto the post office...
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and mailed offseveral copies of my plays...
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meanwhile checking constantlywith my answering service...
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to see if my agenthad called with any acting work.
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In the morning, the mailboxhad just been stuffed with bills.
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What was I supposed to do?How was I supposed to pay them?
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After all, I was already doing my best.
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I've lived in this city all my life.
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I grew up on the Upper East Side...
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and when I was 10 years oldI was rich, I was an aristocrat...
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riding around in taxis,surrounded by comfort...
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and all I thought aboutwas art and music.
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Now I'm 36,and all I think about is money.
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It was now 7:00...
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and I would have liked nothing better thanto go home and have my girlfriend Debby...
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cook me a nice, delicious dinner.
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But for the last several yearsour financial circumstances...
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have forced Debby to workthree nights a week as a waitress.
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After all, somebody had tobring in a little money.
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So I was on my own.
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But the worst thing of all was that I'd beentrapped by an odd series of circumstances...
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into agreeing to have dinnerwith a man I'd been avoiding literally for years.
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His name was André Gregory.
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At one time he'd beena very close friend of mine...
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as well as my most valued colleaguein the theater.
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In fact, he was the manwho had first discovered me...
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and put one of my playson the professional stage.
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When I'd known André, he'd been at the heightof his career as a theater director.
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The amazing work he did with his company,the Manhattan Project...
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had just stunned audiencesthroughout the world.
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But then somethinghad happened to André.
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He dropped out of the theater.He sort of disappeared.
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For months at a time, his family seemedonly to know that he was traveling...
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in some odd place like Tibet...
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which was really weirdbecause he loved his wife and children.
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He never used to liketo leave home at all.
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Or else you'd hear that someone had met himat a party and he'd been telling people...
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that he talked with treesor something like that.
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Obviously, something terriblehad happened to André.
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♪♪ [ Piano. LightJazz ]
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The whole idea of meeting himmade me very nervous.
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I mean, I really wasn't upfor that sort of thing.
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I had problems of my own.I mean, I couldn't help André.
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Was I supposed to be a doctor, or what?
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♪♪ [ Piano Continues ]
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- Hello.
- Hello.
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- Here you go.
- Thank you.
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- Yes, sir.
- Ah, sir, my name is Wallace Shawn.
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I'm expected at the table
of André Gregory.
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That table will be a moment, sir.
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If you like,
you may have a drink at the bar.
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[ Woman Laughing ]
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[ Chattering ]
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- Good evening, sir.
- Uh, could I have a club soda, please?
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I'm sorry, sir.
We only serve Source de Pavilion.
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Oh, that'd be fine, thank you.
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When I'd called André, and he'd suggestedthat we meet in this particular restaurant...
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I'd been rather surprised, becauseAndré's taste used to be very ascetic...
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even though people have always knownthat he had some money somewhere.
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I mean, how the hell else could he havebeen flying off to Asia and so on...
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and still have been supporting his family?
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The reason I was meeting André was thatan acquaintance of mine, George Grassfield...
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had called meand just insisted that I had to see him.
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Apparently, George had been walking his dogin an odd section of town the night before...
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and he'd suddenly come upon André...
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leaning against a crumbling old buildingand sobbing.
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André had explained to Georgethat he'd just been watching...
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the Ingmar Bergman movie
Autumn Sonata...
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about 25 blocks away...
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and he'd been seizedby a fit of ungovernable crying...
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when the character playedby Ingrid Bergman had said...
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"I could always live in my art,but never in my life. "
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WallyI
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- Wow.
- My God.
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[ Wally Chuckling ]
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[ Wally Narrating ] I remember, when I firststarted working with André's company...
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I couldn't get over the way the actorswould hug when they greeted each other.
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"Wow. Now I'm really in the theater, "I thought.
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Well, you look terrific.
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Well, I feel terrible.[ Laughing ]
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[ Wally Laughing ]
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Good evening, sir.
Nice to see you again.
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Thank you. Good evening.
Ah, I think I'll have a spritzer, if I could.
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- Yes, sir.
- Thank you.
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[ Wally Narrating ]I was feeling incredibly nervous.
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I wasn't sure I could stick throughan entire meal with him.
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Great.
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So we talked about this and that.
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He told me a few thingsaboutJerzy Grotowski...
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the great Polish theater director...
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who was a friend and almost likea kind of a guru of André's.
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- [ Indistinct Chattering ]
- He'd also dropped out of the theater.
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Grotowski was a prettyunusual character himself.
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At one time, he'd been quite fat, then he'dlost an incredible amount of weight...
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and become very thinand grown a beard.
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- Your table is ready, if you feel like sitting down.
- Oh.
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- Oh.
- Yes. Thank you.
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[ Wally Narrating ] I was beginning to realizethat the only way to make this evening bearable...
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would be to ask Andréa few questions.
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Asking questions always relaxes me.
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In fact, I sometimes thinkthat my secret profession...
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is that I'm a private investigator,a detective.
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I always enjoy finding out about people.
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Even if they're in absolute agony,I always find it very... interesting.
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- By the way, is he still thin?
- What?
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Grotowski. Is he still thin?
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Oh. [ Chuckles ] Absolutely.
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Oh, waiter?
Uh, I think we can do without this.
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- Yes, sir.
- Thank you.
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What about this one?
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[ Laughing ]
Seven swimming shrimp.
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- Ready for your order?
- Ah, yes.
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Uh, the Galuska -
How - How do you prepare that?
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[ Wally Narrating ] André seemedto know an awful lot about the menu.
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- Dumpling with raisins, blanched almonds.
- I didn't understand a word of it.
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- Very good, I think.
- Hmm.
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No, I - I think I'll have
the Cailles aux Raisin, the quail.
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- Very good.
- Oh, quails! I'll have that as well.
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- Two.
- Great.
- Great!
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And then I think, to begin with,
the Terrine de Poissons.
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- Yes.
- What is that?
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Uh, it's a sort of pâte -
light, made of fish.
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- Does it have bones in it?
- [ Chuckles ] No bones.
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Perfectly safe.
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Well, um -What is
the, um, Bramborová Polévka?
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It's a potato soup.
It's quite delicious.
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Oh, well, that's great.I'll have that.
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- Thank you very kindly.
- Thank you very much.
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Well.
[ Laughing ]
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When was the last time
that we saw each other?
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[ Wally Narrating ] So we talked for a whileabout my writing and my acting...
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and about my girlfriend, Debby.
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And we talked about his wife, Chiquita,and his two children, Nicolas and Marina.
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[ André Laughing ]And I'd stayed back in New York.
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[ Wally ] Finally, I got around to asking himwhat he'd been up to in the last few years.
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Oh, God. I'm just dying to hear it.
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- Really?
- Really.
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At first, he seemeda little reluctant to go into it...
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so I just kept asking,and finally he started to answer.
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...conference
on paratheatrical work then.
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And, uh, this must have been
about five years ago...
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and, uh, Grotowski and I were walking
along Fifth Avenue and we were talking.
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You see, he'd invited me to come
to teach that summer in Poland.
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You know, to teach a workshop
to actors and directors and whatever.
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And I had told him that I didn't want to come,
because, really, I had nothing left to teach.
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I had nothing left to say.
I didn't know anything.
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I couldn't teach anything.
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Exercises meant nothing to me anymore.
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Working on scenes from plays
seemed ridiculous.
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I - I didn't know what to do.
I mean, I just couldn't do it.
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So he said, "Why don't you tell me anything
you'd like to have if you did a workshop for me.
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No matter how outrageous.
And maybe I can give it to you."
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So I said,
"Well, if you could give me...
166
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"40 Jewish women who speak
neither English nor French -
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either women who've been in the theater
for a long time and want to leave it...
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but don't know why...
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or young women who love the theater,
but have never seen a theater they could love.
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And if these women could play
the trumpet or the harp...
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and if I could work in a forest, I'd come."
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[ Laughing ]
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A week later, or two weeks later,
he called me from Poland.
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And he said, "Well, 40 Jewish women -
that's a little hard to find."
175
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But he said, "I do have 40 women.
They all pretty much fit the definition."
176
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And he said, "I also have
some very interesting men...
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"but you don't have to work with them.
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"These are all people who have in common
the fact that they're questioning the theater.
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"They don't all play the trumpet or the harp,
but they all play a musical instrument.
180
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And none of them speak English."
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And he'd found me a forest, Wally.
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And the only inhabitants of this forest
were some wild boar and a hermit.
183
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So that was an offer I couldn't refuse.
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I had to go.
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So, I went to Poland, and it was this
wonderful group of young men and women.
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And the forest he had found us
was absolutely magical.
187
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You know, it was a huge forest.
188
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I mean, the trees were so large...
189
00:12:09,857 --> 00:12:14,260
that four or five people linking their arms
couldn't get their arms around the trees.
190
00:12:14,361 --> 00:12:17,853
So we were camped out beside
the ruins of this tiny little castle...
191
00:12:17,965 --> 00:12:22,299
and we would eat around this great stone slab
that served as a sort of a table.
192
00:12:22,403 --> 00:12:25,566
And our schedule was that usually
we'd start work around sunset...
193
00:12:25,672 --> 00:12:28,539
and then generally we'd work
until about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning.
194
00:12:28,642 --> 00:12:31,008
And then, because the Poles
love to sing and dance...
195
00:12:31,111 --> 00:12:34,376
we'd sing and dance until about
10:00 or 11:00 in the morning.
196
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And then we'd have our food, which
was generally bread, jam, cheese and tea.
197
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And then we'd sleep
from around noon to sunset.
198
00:12:43,857 --> 00:12:45,825
Now, technically, of course -
199
00:12:45,926 --> 00:12:48,326
Technically, the situation
is a very interesting one...
200
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because if you find yourself in a forest
with a group of 40 people...
201
00:12:51,331 --> 00:12:54,994
who don't speak your language,
then all your moorings are gone.
202
00:12:55,102 --> 00:12:57,002
What do you mean exactly?
203
00:12:57,104 --> 00:12:59,834
Well, what we'd do
is just sit there and wait...
204
00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:03,103
for someone to have
an impulse to do something.
205
00:13:03,210 --> 00:13:06,441
Now, in a way that's - that's something
like a theatrical improvisation.
206
00:13:06,547 --> 00:13:09,539
I mean, you know, if you were a director
working on a play by Chekhov...
207
00:13:09,650 --> 00:13:12,881
you might have the actors playing
the mother, the son and the uncle...
208
00:13:12,986 --> 00:13:16,422
all sit around in a room and do
a made-up scene that isn't in the play.
209
00:13:16,523 --> 00:13:18,491
For instance, you might say to them...
210
00:13:18,592 --> 00:13:21,857
"All right. Let's say that it's a rainy
Sunday afternoon on Sorin's estate...
211
00:13:21,962 --> 00:13:24,123
and you're all trapped
in the drawing room together."
212
00:13:24,231 --> 00:13:26,199
And then everyone would improvise -
213
00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:30,669
saying and doing what their character
might say and do in that circumstance.
214
00:13:30,771 --> 00:13:34,707
Except that in this type of improvisation -
the kind we did in Poland -
215
00:13:34,808 --> 00:13:37,641
the theme is oneself.
216
00:13:37,744 --> 00:13:40,212
So, you follow
the same law of improvisation...
217
00:13:40,314 --> 00:13:43,681
which is that you do whatever your impulse,
as the character, tells you to do...
218
00:13:43,784 --> 00:13:46,514
but in this case,
you are the character.
219
00:13:46,620 --> 00:13:50,056
So there's no imaginary situation
to hide behind...
220
00:13:50,157 --> 00:13:53,183
and there's no other person
to hide behind.
221
00:13:53,293 --> 00:13:56,194
What you're doing, in fact,
is you're asking those same questions...
222
00:13:56,296 --> 00:14:01,256
that Stanislavsky said the actor should
constantly ask himself as a character:
223
00:14:01,368 --> 00:14:04,860
Who am I? Why am I here?
224
00:14:04,972 --> 00:14:08,567
Where do I come from,
and where am I going?
225
00:14:08,675 --> 00:14:12,941
But instead of applying them to a role,
you apply them to yourself.
226
00:14:13,046 --> 00:14:15,276
- Hmm.
- Or, to look at it a little differently...
227
00:14:15,382 --> 00:14:17,373
in a way, it's like going
right back to childhood...
228
00:14:17,484 --> 00:14:20,453
where a group of children simply come
into a room or are brought into a room -
229
00:14:20,554 --> 00:14:22,784
without toys - and begin to play.
230
00:14:22,890 --> 00:14:26,587
Grown-ups were learning
how to play again.
231
00:14:26,693 --> 00:14:30,459
So, you would, uh,
all sit together somewhere...
232
00:14:30,564 --> 00:14:33,226
and, uh, you would play in some way.
233
00:14:33,333 --> 00:14:36,393
- But what would you actually do?
- Well, I could give you a good example.
234
00:14:36,503 --> 00:14:39,904
You see, we worked, uh, together
for a week in the city...
235
00:14:40,007 --> 00:14:42,032
before we went off to our forest.
236
00:14:42,142 --> 00:14:44,474
And of course,
Grotowski was there in the city too.
237
00:14:44,578 --> 00:14:47,308
I heard that every night,
he conducted something called a beehive.
238
00:14:47,414 --> 00:14:49,314
I loved the sound of this beehive...
239
00:14:49,416 --> 00:14:52,408
so a night or two before we were
supposed to go off to the country...
240
00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:55,613
I grabbed him by the collar, and I said,
"Listen, about this beehive.
241
00:14:55,722 --> 00:14:57,713
"You know, I'd kind of like
to participate in one.
242
00:14:57,824 --> 00:15:00,622
Just instinctively I feel it would
be something interesting."
243
00:15:00,727 --> 00:15:03,696
And he said, "Well, certainly.
In fact, why don't you, with your group...
244
00:15:03,797 --> 00:15:06,459
lead the beehive
instead of participating in one?"
245
00:15:06,567 --> 00:15:10,401
You know, I - [ Laughing ] I got very nervous,
you know, and I said, "Well, what is a beehive?"
246
00:15:10,504 --> 00:15:13,166
He said, "Well, a beehive is...
247
00:15:13,273 --> 00:15:16,106
at 8:00 a hundred strangers
come into a room."
248
00:15:17,144 --> 00:15:19,578
I said, "Yes?" He said,
"Yes, and whatever happens is a beehive."
249
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,877
I said, "Yes, but what am I supposed to do?"
He said, "That's up to you."
250
00:15:22,983 --> 00:15:26,714
I said, "No, no. I really don't want to do this.
I'll just participate."
251
00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:30,517
And he said,
"No, no. You lead the beehive."
252
00:15:30,624 --> 00:15:32,649
Well, I was terrified, Wally.
253
00:15:32,759 --> 00:15:36,058
I mean, in a way, I felt on stage.
254
00:15:37,164 --> 00:15:39,496
I did it anyway.
255
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,966
God. Well, tell me about it.
256
00:15:42,069 --> 00:15:46,096
You see, there was this song-
I have a tape of it. I can play it for you one day.
257
00:15:46,206 --> 00:15:49,437
And it's just unbelievably beautiful.
258
00:15:49,543 --> 00:15:54,276
You see, one of the women in our group knew
a few fragments of this song of Saint Francis...
259
00:15:54,381 --> 00:15:57,475
and it's a song in which you
thank God for your eyes...
260
00:15:57,584 --> 00:16:00,781
and you thank God for your heart,
and you thank God for your friends...
261
00:16:00,887 --> 00:16:02,821
and you thank God for your life.
262
00:16:02,923 --> 00:16:05,915
And it, uh - It repeats itself
over and over again.
263
00:16:06,026 --> 00:16:07,960
And this became our theme song.
264
00:16:08,061 --> 00:16:10,052
I really must play this thing
for you one day...
265
00:16:10,163 --> 00:16:14,566
because you just can't believe that a group
of people who don't know how to sing...
266
00:16:14,668 --> 00:16:18,331
could create something so beautiful.
267
00:16:18,438 --> 00:16:23,068
So, I decided that when the people
arrived for the beehive...
268
00:16:23,176 --> 00:16:25,940
that our group would already be there
singing this very beautiful song...
269
00:16:26,046 --> 00:16:29,846
and that we would simply sing it
over and over again.
270
00:16:29,950 --> 00:16:34,785
One of the people decided to bring
her very large teddy bear, you know.
271
00:16:34,888 --> 00:16:36,856
Well, she's a little afraid of this event.
272
00:16:36,957 --> 00:16:39,221
And somebody wanted
to bring a - a sheet.
273
00:16:39,326 --> 00:16:42,022
And somebody else wanted
to bring a large bowl of water...
274
00:16:42,129 --> 00:16:44,324
in case people got hot or thirsty.
275
00:16:44,431 --> 00:16:46,729
And somebody suggested
that we have candles -
276
00:16:46,833 --> 00:16:50,929
that there be no artificial light,
but candlelight.
277
00:16:51,038 --> 00:16:53,563
And I remember watching people
preparing for this evening.
278
00:16:53,674 --> 00:16:55,869
Of course, there was no makeup,
and there were no costumes...
279
00:16:55,976 --> 00:16:58,570
but it was exactly the way that people
prepare for a performance.
280
00:16:58,679 --> 00:17:01,807
You know, people sort of taking off
their jewelry and their watches...
281
00:17:01,915 --> 00:17:05,043
and stowing it away
and making sure it's all secure.
282
00:17:05,152 --> 00:17:08,053
And then slowly people arrived,
the way they would arrive at the theater-
283
00:17:08,155 --> 00:17:10,919
in ones and twos and 10s and 15s
and what have you.
284
00:17:11,024 --> 00:17:14,016
And we were just sitting there,
and we were singing this very beautiful song.
285
00:17:14,127 --> 00:17:17,460
And people started to sit with us
and started to learn the song.
286
00:17:17,564 --> 00:17:22,695
Now, there is, of course,
as in any performance or improvisation...
287
00:17:22,803 --> 00:17:25,237
instinct for when things
are gonna get boring.
288
00:17:25,338 --> 00:17:29,274
So, at a certain point - It may have taken
an hour to get there, an hour and a half-
289
00:17:29,376 --> 00:17:33,369
I suddenly grabbed this teddy bear
and threw it in the air...
290
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,007
at which 140 or 130 people
suddenly exploded.
291
00:17:37,117 --> 00:17:40,109
You know, it was like
a - a Jackson Pollack painting, you know.
292
00:17:40,220 --> 00:17:44,623
Human beings exploded out of this tight
little circle that was singing the song.
293
00:17:44,725 --> 00:17:47,694
And before I knew it,
there were two circles, dancing, you know -
294
00:17:47,794 --> 00:17:51,093
one dancing clockwise,
the other dancing counterclockwise...
295
00:17:51,198 --> 00:17:53,393
with this rhythm
mostly from the waist down.
296
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:57,800
In other words, like an American Indian dance,
with this thumping, persistent rhythm.
297
00:17:59,272 --> 00:18:01,172
[ People Chuckling ]
298
00:18:02,476 --> 00:18:05,707
Now, you could easily see,
'cause we're talking about group trance...
299
00:18:05,812 --> 00:18:10,249
where the line between something like this
and something like Hitler's Nuremberg rallies...
300
00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:12,511
is, in a way, a very thin line.
301
00:18:14,855 --> 00:18:18,916
Anyway, after about an hour
of this wild, hypnotic dancing...
302
00:18:19,025 --> 00:18:22,222
Grotowski and I found ourselves sitting opposite
each other in the middle of this whole thing.
303
00:18:22,329 --> 00:18:24,763
And we threw the teddy bear
back and forth.
304
00:18:24,865 --> 00:18:27,390
You know, on one level,
you could say this is childish.
305
00:18:27,501 --> 00:18:29,731
And I gave the teddy bear suck,
suddenly, at my breast.
306
00:18:29,836 --> 00:18:32,964
And then I threw the teddy bear to him,
and he gave it suck at his breast.
307
00:18:33,073 --> 00:18:35,473
And then the teddy bear
was thrown up into the air again...
308
00:18:35,575 --> 00:18:38,874
at which there was another explosion
of form into... something.
309
00:18:38,979 --> 00:18:41,777
And these -What was it like?
You know, this is the -
310
00:18:41,882 --> 00:18:45,409
There's something like a kaleidoscope,
like a human kaleidoscope.
311
00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:49,785
The evening was made up
of shiftings of the kaleidoscope.
312
00:18:49,890 --> 00:18:51,881
Now, the only other things
that I remember...
313
00:18:51,992 --> 00:18:53,892
other than constantly trying
to guide this thing...
314
00:18:53,994 --> 00:18:58,488
which was always involved with either
movement, rhythm, repetition or song -
315
00:18:58,598 --> 00:19:00,725
Or chanting, because,
uh, two people in my group...
316
00:19:00,834 --> 00:19:02,825
had brought musical instruments,
a flute and a drum...
317
00:19:02,936 --> 00:19:04,904
which, of course,
are sacred instruments -
318
00:19:05,005 --> 00:19:07,530
was that sometimes the room
would break up...
319
00:19:07,641 --> 00:19:10,906
into six or seven different things
going on at once.
320
00:19:11,011 --> 00:19:13,912
You know, six or seven
different improvisations...
321
00:19:14,014 --> 00:19:17,814
all of which seemed, in some way,
related to each other.
322
00:19:17,918 --> 00:19:21,285
It was - It was like
a magnificent cobweb.
323
00:19:22,622 --> 00:19:26,786
And at one point, I noticed that Grotowski
was at the center of one group...
324
00:19:26,893 --> 00:19:29,691
huddled around a bunch of candles
that they'd gathered together.
325
00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:32,924
And like a little child
fascinated by fire...
326
00:19:33,033 --> 00:19:37,129
I saw that he had his hand right in the flame
and was holding it there.
327
00:19:37,237 --> 00:19:40,104
And as I approached his group,
I wondered if I could do it.
328
00:19:40,207 --> 00:19:45,076
I put my left hand in the flame and I found
I could hold it there for as long as I liked...
329
00:19:45,178 --> 00:19:47,544
and there was no burn
and no pain.
330
00:19:47,647 --> 00:19:51,777
But when I tried to put my right hand in the
flame, I couldn't hold it there for a second.
331
00:19:51,885 --> 00:19:56,788
So Grotowski said, "If it burns,
try to change some little thing in yourself."
332
00:19:56,890 --> 00:20:00,348
And I tried to do that.
Didn't work.
333
00:20:00,460 --> 00:20:04,988
Then I remember a very, very beautiful
procession with the sheet...
334
00:20:05,098 --> 00:20:07,566
and there was somebody
being carried below the sheet.
335
00:20:07,667 --> 00:20:10,761
You know, the sheet was like
some great biblical canopy.
336
00:20:10,871 --> 00:20:15,001
And the entire group was weaving
around the room and chanting.
337
00:20:16,409 --> 00:20:19,139
And then at one point,
people were dancing...
338
00:20:19,246 --> 00:20:21,544
and I was dancing with a girl...
339
00:20:21,648 --> 00:20:24,173
and suddenly our hands began
vibrating near each other-
340
00:20:24,284 --> 00:20:26,184
like this -vibrating, vibrating.
341
00:20:26,286 --> 00:20:29,722
And we went down to our knees,
and suddenly I was sobbing in her arms...
342
00:20:29,823 --> 00:20:34,089
and she was sort of cradling me in her arms,
and then she started to cry too.
343
00:20:34,194 --> 00:20:36,594
And then we - then we just
hugged each other for a moment.
344
00:20:36,696 --> 00:20:39,995
And, uh, then we joined the dance again.
345
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:43,558
And then at a certain point,
hours later...
346
00:20:43,670 --> 00:20:46,639
we returned to the singing
of the song of Saint Francis...
347
00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:49,072
and that was the end of the beehive.
348
00:20:50,477 --> 00:20:54,641
And then, again, when it was over, it was
just like the theater after a performance.
349
00:20:54,748 --> 00:20:57,911
You know, people sort of put on
their earrings and their wristwatches...
350
00:20:58,018 --> 00:20:59,986
and we went off
to the railroad station...
351
00:21:00,086 --> 00:21:04,147
to drink a lot of beer
and have a good dinner.
352
00:21:04,257 --> 00:21:07,021
Oh, and there was one girl,
who wasn't in our group...
353
00:21:07,127 --> 00:21:10,563
but who just wouldn't leave,
so we took her along with us.
354
00:21:10,664 --> 00:21:12,359
[ Chuckling ]
355
00:21:12,465 --> 00:21:14,365
Huh.
356
00:21:19,506 --> 00:21:23,033
God. Well, tell me some of the other things
you did with your group.
357
00:21:23,143 --> 00:21:26,840
Well- Oh, I remember once
when we were in the city...
358
00:21:26,947 --> 00:21:30,383
we tried doing an improvisation -you know,
the kind that I used to do in New York.
359
00:21:30,483 --> 00:21:32,883
Uh, everybody was supposed to be
on an airplane...
360
00:21:32,986 --> 00:21:35,750
and they've all learned from the pilot
there's something wrong with the motor.
361
00:21:35,855 --> 00:21:38,790
But what was unusual
about this improvisation...
362
00:21:38,892 --> 00:21:42,555
was that two people who
participated in it... fell in love.
363
00:21:42,662 --> 00:21:44,562
They've, in fact, married.
364
00:21:44,664 --> 00:21:47,360
And when we were -
Yeah, out of fear...
365
00:21:47,467 --> 00:21:50,664
of being on this plane,
they fell in love...
366
00:21:50,770 --> 00:21:52,863
thinking they were going to die
at any moment.
367
00:21:52,973 --> 00:21:56,602
And when we went to the forest,
these two disappeared...
368
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:59,144
because they understood
the - the experiment so well...
369
00:21:59,245 --> 00:22:02,976
that they realized that to go off together
in the forest was much more important...
370
00:22:03,083 --> 00:22:06,519
than any kind of experiment
the group could do as a whole.
371
00:22:06,619 --> 00:22:09,918
So, uh, about halfway
through the week...
372
00:22:10,023 --> 00:22:12,218
we stumbled into
a clearing in the forest...
373
00:22:12,325 --> 00:22:15,726
and the two of them
were fast asleep in each other's arms.
374
00:22:15,829 --> 00:22:18,525
It was around dawn,
and we put flowers on them...
375
00:22:18,631 --> 00:22:21,759
to let them know we'd been there,
and then we crept away.
376
00:22:21,868 --> 00:22:25,133
And then on the last day of our stay
in the forest, these two showed up...
377
00:22:25,238 --> 00:22:28,105
and they shook me by my hands,
and they thanked me very much...
378
00:22:28,208 --> 00:22:30,870
for the wonderful work
they'd been able to do, you see.
379
00:22:30,977 --> 00:22:34,071
- [ Laughs ]
- They understood what it was about.
380
00:22:34,180 --> 00:22:37,581
I mean, that, of course, poses
the question of what was it about.
381
00:22:38,952 --> 00:22:42,388
But it has -has something
to do with living.
382
00:22:45,125 --> 00:22:47,855
And then on the final day
of our stay in the forest...
383
00:22:47,961 --> 00:22:50,486
the whole group did something
so wonderful for me, Wally.
384
00:22:50,597 --> 00:22:52,827
They arranged a christening -
a baptism - for me.
385
00:22:52,932 --> 00:22:55,230
And they filled the castle with flowers.
386
00:22:55,335 --> 00:22:57,735
And it was just a miracle of light...
387
00:22:57,837 --> 00:23:01,705
because they had literally set up
hundreds of candles and torches.
388
00:23:01,808 --> 00:23:04,641
I mean, no church
could have looked more beautiful.
389
00:23:04,744 --> 00:23:07,838
There was a simple ceremony, and one
of them played the role of my godmother...
390
00:23:07,947 --> 00:23:09,915
and another played the role
of my godfather.
391
00:23:10,016 --> 00:23:13,679
And I was given a new name.
They called me Yendrush.
392
00:23:13,787 --> 00:23:17,188
And some of the people
took it completely seriously...
393
00:23:17,290 --> 00:23:19,417
and some of them found it funny.
394
00:23:19,526 --> 00:23:22,757
But, uh, I really felt
that I had a new name.
395
00:23:24,030 --> 00:23:27,796
And then we had an enormous feast,
with blueberries picked from the field...
396
00:23:27,901 --> 00:23:30,495
and chocolate someone
had gone a great distance to buy...
397
00:23:30,603 --> 00:23:32,594
and raspberry soup and rabbit stew.
398
00:23:32,705 --> 00:23:35,731
And we sang Polish songs
and Greek songs...
399
00:23:35,842 --> 00:23:38,743
and everybody danced
for the rest of the night.
400
00:23:38,845 --> 00:23:40,938
- Hmm.
- Oh, I have a picture.
401
00:23:43,583 --> 00:23:46,518
See, this was - Let's see.
402
00:23:47,554 --> 00:23:50,489
Oh, yeah.
This was me in the forest. See?
403
00:23:50,590 --> 00:23:53,184
- God!
- That's what I felt like.
404
00:23:54,227 --> 00:23:56,195
[ Chuckling ]
405
00:23:56,296 --> 00:23:58,560
- That's the state I was in.
- God.
406
00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:03,433
Yeah. I remember George, uh, told me
he'd seen you around that time.
407
00:24:03,536 --> 00:24:05,800
He said you looked like
you'd come back from a war.
408
00:24:05,905 --> 00:24:09,341
Yeah, I remember meeting him. He, uh -
He asked me a lot of friendly questions.
409
00:24:09,442 --> 00:24:11,672
I think I called you up, too,
that summer, didn't I?
410
00:24:11,778 --> 00:24:13,678
Huh.
411
00:24:13,780 --> 00:24:16,749
I think I was out of town.
412
00:24:16,850 --> 00:24:20,513
Yeah, well, most people I met thought
there was something wrong with me.
413
00:24:20,620 --> 00:24:23,885
They didn't say that, but I could tell that
that was what they thought.
414
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:26,083
But...
415
00:24:26,192 --> 00:24:30,891
you see, what I think
I experienced... was...
416
00:24:30,997 --> 00:24:33,727
for the first time in my life...
417
00:24:33,833 --> 00:24:36,301
to know what it means
to be truly alive.
418
00:24:36,402 --> 00:24:38,370
Now, that's very frightening...
419
00:24:38,471 --> 00:24:40,939
because with that comes
an immediate awareness of death...
420
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,940
'cause they go hand in hand.
421
00:24:43,042 --> 00:24:46,478
You know, the kind of impulse that led to
Walt Whitman, that led to Leaves of Grass.
422
00:24:46,579 --> 00:24:49,047
That feeling of being connected
to everything...
423
00:24:49,149 --> 00:24:51,447
means to also be connected to death.
424
00:24:51,551 --> 00:24:53,712
And that's pretty scary.
425
00:24:53,820 --> 00:24:58,314
But I really felt as if I were floating
above the ground, not walking.
426
00:24:58,424 --> 00:25:01,018
You know, and I could do things
like go out to the highway...
427
00:25:01,127 --> 00:25:05,029
and watch the lights go from red to green
and think, "How wonderful."
428
00:25:05,131 --> 00:25:08,430
- [ Wally Chuckles ]
- And then one day, in the early fall...
429
00:25:08,535 --> 00:25:11,003
I was out in the country,
walking in a field...
430
00:25:11,104 --> 00:25:14,540
and I suddenly heard a voice
say, "Little Prince. "
431
00:25:14,641 --> 00:25:17,439
Of course, The Little Prince
was a book that I always thought of...
432
00:25:17,544 --> 00:25:19,444
as disgusting, childish treacle.
433
00:25:19,546 --> 00:25:22,777
But still, I thought, "Well, you know,
if a voice comes to me in a field" -
434
00:25:22,882 --> 00:25:25,180
This was the first voice I had ever heard.
435
00:25:25,285 --> 00:25:27,253
Maybe I should go and read the book.
436
00:25:27,353 --> 00:25:29,651
Now, that same morning
I'd got a letter...
437
00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:32,054
from a young woman
who'd been in my group in Poland.
438
00:25:32,158 --> 00:25:34,388
And in her letter she'd written,
"You have dominated me."
439
00:25:34,494 --> 00:25:36,485
You know,
she spoke very awkward English.
440
00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:39,588
So she'd gone to the dictionary,
and she'd crossed out the word "dominated"...
441
00:25:39,699 --> 00:25:42,566
and she'd said,
"No. The correct word is 'tamed.' "
442
00:25:42,669 --> 00:25:45,866
And then when I went to town
and bought the book and started to read it...
443
00:25:45,972 --> 00:25:49,999
I saw that "taming" was the most
important word in the whole book.
444
00:25:50,109 --> 00:25:53,977
By the end of the book, I was in tears,
I was so moved by the story.
445
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,674
And then I went and tried to write
an answer to her letter...
446
00:25:56,783 --> 00:25:58,751
'cause she'd written me a very long letter.
447
00:25:58,851 --> 00:26:02,287
But I just couldn't find the right words,
so finally I took my hand...
448
00:26:02,388 --> 00:26:05,186
I put it on a piece of paper,
I outlined it with a pen...
449
00:26:05,291 --> 00:26:08,089
and I wrote in the center something
like, "Your heart is in my hand."
450
00:26:08,194 --> 00:26:09,821
Something like that.
451
00:26:09,929 --> 00:26:11,920
Then I went over
to my brother's house to swim...
452
00:26:12,031 --> 00:26:14,465
'cause he lives nearby in the country
and he has a pool.
453
00:26:14,567 --> 00:26:16,535
And he wasn't home.
I went into his library...
454
00:26:16,636 --> 00:26:19,696
and he had bought at an auction
the collected issues of Minotaure.
455
00:26:19,806 --> 00:26:24,209
You know, the surrealist magazine?
Oh, it's a great, great surrealist
magazine of the '20s and '30s.
456
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:27,336
And I never-You know,
I consider myself a bit of a surrealist.
457
00:26:27,447 --> 00:26:30,007
I had never, ever seen
a copy of Minotaure.
458
00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:32,380
And here they all were,
bound, year after year.
459
00:26:32,485 --> 00:26:35,852
So, at random,
I picked one out, I opened it up...
460
00:26:35,955 --> 00:26:39,254
and there was a full-page reproduction
of the letter "A"...
461
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,418
from Tenniel's Alice In Wonderland.
462
00:26:41,527 --> 00:26:44,792
And I thought, that -Well, you know,
it's been a day of coincidences...
463
00:26:44,897 --> 00:26:47,661
but that's not unusual that the surrealists
would have been interested in Alice...
464
00:26:47,767 --> 00:26:49,735
and I did a play of Alice.
465
00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:54,068
So at random,
I opened to another page...
466
00:26:54,173 --> 00:26:57,665
and there were four handprints.
467
00:26:57,777 --> 00:27:00,644
One was André Breton,
another was André Derain...
468
00:27:00,747 --> 00:27:03,341
the third was André -
I've got it written down somewhere.
469
00:27:03,449 --> 00:27:07,317
It's not Malraux. It's, like, someone -
Another of the surrealists.
470
00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:12,289
All A's, and the fourth
was Antoine de Saint-Exupéry...
471
00:27:12,392 --> 00:27:14,417
who wrote The Little Prince.
472
00:27:14,527 --> 00:27:17,018
And they'd shown these handprints
to some kind of expert...
473
00:27:17,130 --> 00:27:19,928
without saying
whose hands they belonged to.
474
00:27:20,033 --> 00:27:23,833
And under Exupéry's,
it said that he was an artist...
475
00:27:23,936 --> 00:27:26,234
with very powerful eyes...
476
00:27:26,339 --> 00:27:30,139
who was a tamer of wild animals.
477
00:27:30,243 --> 00:27:32,438
I thought,
"This is incredible, you know."
478
00:27:32,545 --> 00:27:36,276
And I looked back to see
when the issue came out.
479
00:27:36,382 --> 00:27:40,216
It came out on the newsstands
May 12, 1934...
480
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,518
and I was born during the day
of May 11 , 1934.
481
00:27:45,658 --> 00:27:50,789
So, well, that's what started me on, uh,
Saint-Exupéry and The Little Prince.
482
00:27:58,471 --> 00:28:00,939
Now, of course today-
483
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,476
today I think there's a very fascistic thing
under The Little Prince.
484
00:28:04,577 --> 00:28:06,807
You know, I -
Well, no, I think there's a kind of-
485
00:28:06,913 --> 00:28:12,317
[ Laughing ] I think a kind of S.S. totalitarian
sentimentality in there somewhere.
486
00:28:12,418 --> 00:28:15,148
You know, there's something, you know -
that -
487
00:28:15,254 --> 00:28:17,415
that love of, um -
488
00:28:17,523 --> 00:28:21,892
Well, that masculine love
of a certain kind of oily muscle.
489
00:28:21,994 --> 00:28:25,225
You know what I mean?
I mean, I can't quite put my finger on it.
490
00:28:25,331 --> 00:28:28,960
But I can just imagine
some beautiful S.S. man...
491
00:28:29,068 --> 00:28:31,036
- loving The Little Prince.
- [ Wally Laughs ]
492
00:28:31,137 --> 00:28:33,765
Now, I don't know why, but there's
something wrong with it. It stinks.
493
00:28:33,873 --> 00:28:36,068
[ High-pitched Laughing ]
494
00:28:39,679 --> 00:28:44,048
Well, didn't George tell me that you were gonna
do a play that was based on The Little Prince?
495
00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:47,347
Hmm. Well, what happened, Wally...
496
00:28:48,521 --> 00:28:50,011
was that fall I was in New York...
497
00:28:50,123 --> 00:28:53,559
and I met this young Japanese
Buddhist priest named Kozan...
498
00:28:53,659 --> 00:28:56,150
and I thought he was Puck
from the Midsummer Night's Dream.
499
00:28:56,262 --> 00:28:58,492
You know,
he had this beautiful, delicate smile.
500
00:28:58,598 --> 00:29:00,532
I thought he was the Little Prince.
501
00:29:00,633 --> 00:29:04,034
So, naturally, I decided
to go off to the Sahara desert...
502
00:29:04,137 --> 00:29:07,595
to work on The Little Prince
with two actors and this Japanese monk.
503
00:29:07,707 --> 00:29:09,607
You did?
504
00:29:09,709 --> 00:29:14,669
Well, I mean, I was still in a very
peculiar state at that time, Wally.
505
00:29:14,781 --> 00:29:18,148
You know, I would - I would look
in the rearview mirror of my car...
506
00:29:18,251 --> 00:29:21,049
and see little birds
flying out of my mouth.
507
00:29:22,121 --> 00:29:26,387
And I remember always being
exhausted in that period.
508
00:29:26,492 --> 00:29:30,553
I always felt weak. You know, I really
didn't know what was going on with me.
509
00:29:30,663 --> 00:29:34,565
I would just sit out there all alone
in the country for days...
510
00:29:34,667 --> 00:29:37,830
and do nothing but write in my diary.
511
00:29:37,937 --> 00:29:40,735
- And I was always thinking about death.
- Huh.
512
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,808
But you went to the Sahara.
513
00:29:42,909 --> 00:29:45,002
Oh, yes, we went off into the desert...
514
00:29:45,111 --> 00:29:47,204
and we rode through the desert
on camels.
515
00:29:47,313 --> 00:29:49,213
And we rode and we rode.
516
00:29:49,315 --> 00:29:51,715
And then at night we would walk out
under that enormous sky...
517
00:29:51,818 --> 00:29:53,877
and look at the stars.
518
00:29:53,986 --> 00:29:57,513
I just kept thinking about the same things
that I was always thinking about at home -
519
00:29:57,623 --> 00:29:59,648
particularly about Chiquita.
520
00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:03,126
In fact, I thought about
just about nothing but my marriage.
521
00:30:05,097 --> 00:30:07,429
And then I remember
one incredibly dark night...
522
00:30:07,533 --> 00:30:10,764
being at an oasis, and there were
palm trees moving in the wind...
523
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:14,567
and I could hear Kozan singing
far away in that beautiful bass voice.
524
00:30:14,674 --> 00:30:17,370
And I tried to follow his voice
along the sand.
525
00:30:17,477 --> 00:30:19,377
[ Laughing ]
526
00:30:19,479 --> 00:30:22,448
You see, I thought he had
something to teach me, Wally.
527
00:30:24,050 --> 00:30:26,041
And sometimes
I would meditate with him.
528
00:30:26,152 --> 00:30:29,087
Sometimes I'd go off
and meditate by myself.
529
00:30:30,456 --> 00:30:33,357
You know,
I would see images of Chiquita.
530
00:30:33,459 --> 00:30:35,723
Once I actually saw her growing old...
531
00:30:35,828 --> 00:30:38,422
and her hair turning gray
in front of my eyes.
532
00:30:38,531 --> 00:30:43,491
And I would just wail and yell my lungs out
out there on the dunes.
533
00:30:46,572 --> 00:30:50,474
Anyway,
the desert was pretty horrible.
534
00:30:50,576 --> 00:30:52,476
It was pretty cold.
535
00:30:52,578 --> 00:30:56,014
We were searching for something, but we
couldn't tell if we were finding anything.
536
00:30:56,115 --> 00:30:58,140
You know that once Kozan and I -
537
00:30:58,251 --> 00:31:00,719
we were sitting on a dune,
and we just ate sand.
538
00:31:00,820 --> 00:31:03,220
No, we weren't trying to be funny.
I started, then he started.
539
00:31:03,322 --> 00:31:07,156
We just ate sand and threw up.
That's how desperate we were.
540
00:31:07,260 --> 00:31:10,889
In other words,
we didn't know why we were there.
We didn't know what we were looking for.
541
00:31:10,997 --> 00:31:14,091
The entire thing seemed
completely absurd, arid and empty.
542
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,636
It was like, uh -
like a last chance or something.
543
00:31:17,737 --> 00:31:20,069
Huh.
544
00:31:20,172 --> 00:31:22,436
So what happened then?
545
00:31:22,542 --> 00:31:25,306
Well, in those days...
546
00:31:25,411 --> 00:31:27,675
I went completely on impulse.
547
00:31:27,780 --> 00:31:30,908
So on impulse I brought Kozan back
to stay with us in New York...
548
00:31:31,017 --> 00:31:34,578
after we got back from the Sahara,
and he stayed for six months.
549
00:31:34,687 --> 00:31:38,623
And he really sort of took over
the whole family, in a way.
- What do you mean?
550
00:31:38,724 --> 00:31:42,922
Well, there was certainly a center
missing in the house at the time.
551
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:45,520
There certainly wasn't a father,
'cause I was always thinking...
552
00:31:45,631 --> 00:31:49,067
about going off to Tibet
or doing God knows what.
553
00:31:49,168 --> 00:31:51,500
And so he taught the whole family
to meditate...
554
00:31:51,604 --> 00:31:55,802
and he told them all about Asia and the East
and his monastery and everything.
555
00:31:55,908 --> 00:32:00,368
He really captivated everybody
with an incredible bag of tricks.
556
00:32:00,479 --> 00:32:03,243
He had literally
developed himself, Wally...
557
00:32:03,349 --> 00:32:08,082
so that he could push on his fingers
and rise off out of his chair.
558
00:32:08,187 --> 00:32:10,155
I mean, he could literally go like this -
559
00:32:10,256 --> 00:32:12,451
You know, push on his fingers
and go into like a headstand...
560
00:32:12,558 --> 00:32:14,685
and just hold himself there
with two fingers.
561
00:32:14,794 --> 00:32:17,160
Or if Chiquita would suddenly get
a little tension in her neck...
562
00:32:17,263 --> 00:32:20,460
well, he'd immediately have her
down on the floor, he'd be walking
up and down on her back...
563
00:32:20,566 --> 00:32:23,592
doing these unbelievable massages,
you know.
564
00:32:24,770 --> 00:32:26,738
And the children found him amazing.
565
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:30,070
I mean, you know, we'd visit friends
who had children...
566
00:32:30,176 --> 00:32:32,235
and immediately
he'd be playing with these children...
567
00:32:32,345 --> 00:32:34,336
in a way that, you know, we just can't do.
568
00:32:34,447 --> 00:32:37,143
I mean, those children -
just giggles, giggles, giggles...
569
00:32:37,249 --> 00:32:40,685
about what this Japanese monk
was doing in these holy robes.
570
00:32:40,786 --> 00:32:43,721
I mean, he was an acrobat,
a ventriloquist...
571
00:32:43,823 --> 00:32:46,314
a magician, everything.
572
00:32:46,425 --> 00:32:48,393
You know,
the amazing thing was that...
573
00:32:48,494 --> 00:32:50,826
I don't think he had any interest
in children whatsoever.
574
00:32:50,930 --> 00:32:53,160
None at all.
I don't think he liked them.
575
00:32:53,265 --> 00:32:55,358
I mean, you know,
when he stayed with us...
576
00:32:55,468 --> 00:32:58,164
in the first week, really, the kids
were just googly-eyed over him.
577
00:32:58,270 --> 00:33:01,171
But then a couple of weeks later,
Chiquita and I could be out...
578
00:33:01,273 --> 00:33:04,242
and Marina could have flu
or a temperature of 104...
579
00:33:04,343 --> 00:33:06,903
and he wouldn't even go in
and say hello to her.
580
00:33:07,013 --> 00:33:10,471
But he was taking over more and more.
581
00:33:10,583 --> 00:33:13,177
I mean, his own habits
had completely changed.
582
00:33:13,285 --> 00:33:18,052
You know, he started wearing these elegant
Gucci shoes under his white monk's robes.
583
00:33:18,157 --> 00:33:20,148
He was eating huge amounts of food.
584
00:33:20,259 --> 00:33:23,717
I mean, he ate twice as much
as Nicolas ate, you know?
585
00:33:23,829 --> 00:33:26,320
This tiny little Buddhist
when I first met him, you know...
586
00:33:26,432 --> 00:33:29,367
was eating a little bowl of milk-
hot milk with rice -
587
00:33:29,468 --> 00:33:32,062
was now eating huge beef.
588
00:33:34,073 --> 00:33:36,769
It was just very strange.
589
00:33:36,876 --> 00:33:40,334
You know, and we had tried working together,
but really our work consisted mostly...
590
00:33:40,446 --> 00:33:45,247
of my trying to do these incredibly painful
prostrations that they do in the monastery.
591
00:33:45,351 --> 00:33:48,377
You know, so really we hadn't
been working very much.
592
00:33:48,487 --> 00:33:53,823
Anyway, we were out in the country, and
we all went to Christmas mass together.
593
00:33:53,926 --> 00:33:56,190
You know, he was all dressed up
in his Buddhist finery.
594
00:33:56,295 --> 00:34:00,254
And it was one of those - one of those awful,
dreary Catholic churches on Long Island...
595
00:34:00,366 --> 00:34:04,325
where the priest talks about
communism and birth control.
596
00:34:04,437 --> 00:34:08,373
And as I was sitting there in mass, I was
wondering, "What in the world is going on?"
597
00:34:08,474 --> 00:34:10,442
I mean, here I am. I'm a grown man...
598
00:34:10,543 --> 00:34:13,137
and there's this strange person living
in the house, and I'm not working -
599
00:34:13,245 --> 00:34:16,772
You know, I was doing nothing
but scribbling a little poetry in my diary.
600
00:34:16,882 --> 00:34:21,319
And I can't get a job teaching anymore,
and I don't know what I want to do.
601
00:34:21,420 --> 00:34:26,915
When all of a sudden a huge creature
appeared, looking at the congregation.
602
00:34:27,026 --> 00:34:31,463
It was about, I'd say, 6'8" -
something like that, you know...
603
00:34:31,564 --> 00:34:34,499
and it was -
it was half bull, half man...
604
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,693
and its skin was blue.
605
00:34:36,802 --> 00:34:40,431
It had violets growing out of its eyelids
and poppies growing out of its toenails.
606
00:34:40,539 --> 00:34:44,270
And it just stood there
for the whole mass.
607
00:34:44,376 --> 00:34:46,776
I mean, I could not make
that creature disappear.
608
00:34:46,879 --> 00:34:49,871
You know, I thought, "Oh, well. You know,
I'm just seeing this 'cause I'm bored."
609
00:34:49,982 --> 00:34:55,113
You know, close my-
I could not make that creature go away.
610
00:34:55,221 --> 00:34:59,123
Okay. Now, I didn't talk with people about it,
because they'd think I was weird...
611
00:34:59,225 --> 00:35:04,720
but I felt that this creature
was somehow coming to comfort me...
612
00:35:04,830 --> 00:35:08,095
that somehow
he was appearing to say...
613
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,762
"Well, you may feel low and you might
not be able to create a play right now...
614
00:35:12,872 --> 00:35:16,831
"but look at what can come to you
on Christmas Eve. Hang on, old friend.
615
00:35:16,942 --> 00:35:19,775
"I may seem weird to you,
but on these weird voyages...
616
00:35:19,879 --> 00:35:21,847
"weird creatures appear.
617
00:35:21,947 --> 00:35:25,815
It's part of the journey.
You're okay. Hang in there."
618
00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:33,522
By the way, uh, did you ever see...
619
00:35:33,626 --> 00:35:37,221
that play, uh, The Violets are Blue?
620
00:35:39,098 --> 00:35:40,998
No.
621
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:44,297
Oh, when you mentioned the violets,
it-it reminded me of that.
622
00:35:44,403 --> 00:35:47,338
It-It was about, um, people...
623
00:35:47,439 --> 00:35:50,533
being, uh, strangled
on a - on a submarine.
624
00:35:50,643 --> 00:35:52,838
Hmm.
625
00:35:56,849 --> 00:36:01,786
[ Sighs ] Well, so that was -
[ Chuckles ] that was Christmas.
626
00:36:01,887 --> 00:36:04,515
What happened after that?
627
00:36:04,623 --> 00:36:07,592
- Do you really want to hear about all this?
- Yeah.
628
00:36:07,693 --> 00:36:11,322
Well, around that time...
629
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:18,266
I was beginning to think about going to India.
And Kozan suddenly left one day.
630
00:36:18,370 --> 00:36:21,703
I was beginning to get into a lot
of very strange ideas around that time.
631
00:36:21,807 --> 00:36:25,868
Now, for example, I'd developed this -
Well, I got this idea which I -
632
00:36:25,978 --> 00:36:29,141
Now, it was very appealing to me
at the time, you know -
633
00:36:29,248 --> 00:36:32,547
which was that I would have a flag,
a large flag...
634
00:36:32,651 --> 00:36:35,017
and that wherever I worked,
this flag would fly.
635
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,386
Or if we were outside, say, with a group, that
the flag could be the thing we lay on at night...
636
00:36:39,491 --> 00:36:43,222
and that somehow, between
working on this flag and lying on this flag...
637
00:36:43,329 --> 00:36:45,229
this flag flying over us...
638
00:36:45,331 --> 00:36:49,290
that the flag would pick up
vibrations of a kind...
639
00:36:49,401 --> 00:36:52,131
that would still be in the flag
when I brought it home.
640
00:36:52,238 --> 00:36:55,332
So I went down to meet this flag maker
that I'd heard about.
641
00:36:55,441 --> 00:36:57,466
And you know, there was
this very straightforward-looking guy.
642
00:36:57,576 --> 00:37:02,343
You know, very sweet, really healthy-looking
and everything. Nice big, blond.
643
00:37:02,448 --> 00:37:05,440
And he had a beautiful, clean loft
down in the village with lovely, happy flags.
644
00:37:05,551 --> 00:37:08,987
And I was all into The Little Prince,
and I talked to him about The Little Prince...
645
00:37:09,088 --> 00:37:12,922
these adventures and everything, how I
needed the flag and what the flag should be.
646
00:37:13,025 --> 00:37:15,357
He seemed to really connect with it.
647
00:37:15,461 --> 00:37:17,929
So, two weeks later, I came back.
648
00:37:18,030 --> 00:37:21,727
He showed me a flag that I thought
was very odd, you know...
649
00:37:21,834 --> 00:37:23,825
'cause I had, you know -
well, you know...
650
00:37:23,936 --> 00:37:27,303
I had expected something
gentle and lyrical.
651
00:37:27,406 --> 00:37:29,738
There was something about this
that was so powerful...
652
00:37:29,842 --> 00:37:31,776
it was almost overwhelming.
653
00:37:31,877 --> 00:37:33,845
And it did include the Tibetan swastika.
654
00:37:35,414 --> 00:37:37,609
He put a swastika in your flag?
655
00:37:37,716 --> 00:37:40,412
No, it was the Tibetan swastika,
not the Nazi swastika.
656
00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:42,885
It's one of the most ancient
Tibetan symbols.
657
00:37:42,988 --> 00:37:45,980
And it was just strange, you know?
658
00:37:46,091 --> 00:37:49,686
But I brought it home,
because my idea with this flag...
659
00:37:49,795 --> 00:37:52,263
was that before I left -
you know, before I left for India...
660
00:37:52,364 --> 00:37:56,198
I wanted several people who were close to me
to have this flag in the room for the night...
661
00:37:56,302 --> 00:37:59,738
to sleep with it, you know, and then
in the morning to sew something into the flag.
662
00:37:59,838 --> 00:38:03,865
So I took the flag into Marina, and I said,
"Hey, look at this. What do you think of this?"
663
00:38:03,976 --> 00:38:06,706
And she said, "What is that? That's awful."
I said, "It's a flag."
664
00:38:06,812 --> 00:38:08,439
And she said, "I don't like it."
665
00:38:08,547 --> 00:38:11,778
I said, "I kind of thought you might like
to spend the night with it, you know."
666
00:38:11,884 --> 00:38:14,819
But she really thought
the flag was awful.
667
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,254
So then Chiquita threw this party
for me before I left for India...
668
00:38:19,358 --> 00:38:21,417
and the apartment
was filled with guests.
669
00:38:21,527 --> 00:38:24,587
And at one point Chiquita said,
"The flag, the flag. Where's the flag?"
670
00:38:24,697 --> 00:38:28,690
And I said, "Oh, yeah. The flag."
And I go and get the flag, and I open it up.
671
00:38:28,801 --> 00:38:32,635
Chiquita goes absolutely white
and runs out of the room and vomits.
672
00:38:32,738 --> 00:38:36,003
So the party just comes to a halt
and breaks up.
673
00:38:36,108 --> 00:38:38,804
And then the next day
I gave it to this young woman...
674
00:38:38,911 --> 00:38:41,505
who'd been in my group in Poland,
who was now in New York.
675
00:38:41,613 --> 00:38:45,105
I didn't tell her anything
about any of this.
676
00:38:45,217 --> 00:38:47,617
At 5:00 in the morning,
she called me up and she said...
677
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:50,188
"I gotta come and see you right away."
I thought, "Oh, God."
678
00:38:50,289 --> 00:38:54,020
She came up, and she said, "I saw things -
I saw things around this flag.
679
00:38:54,126 --> 00:38:57,118
"Now, I know you're stubborn, and I know
you want to take this thing with you...
680
00:38:57,229 --> 00:39:00,221
"but if you'd follow my advice,
you'd put it in a hole in the ground...
681
00:39:00,332 --> 00:39:03,165
and burn it and cover it with earth,
cause the devil's in it."
682
00:39:03,268 --> 00:39:05,168
I never took the flag with me.
683
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:09,707
In fact, I gave it to her, and, uh,
she - she had a ceremony with it...
684
00:39:09,808 --> 00:39:12,276
six months later, in France,
with some friends...
685
00:39:12,378 --> 00:39:14,539
in which, uh, they did burn it.
686
00:39:15,681 --> 00:39:17,911
[ Laughing ]
God.
687
00:39:18,017 --> 00:39:21,384
That's really, really amazing.
688
00:39:23,088 --> 00:39:25,613
So, did you ever go to India?
689
00:39:25,724 --> 00:39:29,057
Oh, yes, I - I went to India
in the spring, Wally...
690
00:39:29,161 --> 00:39:31,629
and I came back home
feeling all wrong.
691
00:39:31,730 --> 00:39:36,167
I mean, you know, I'd been to India,
and I'd just felt like a tourist.
692
00:39:36,268 --> 00:39:39,066
I'd found nothing.
693
00:39:39,171 --> 00:39:43,835
So I was - I was spending, uh, the summer
on Long Island with my family...
694
00:39:43,942 --> 00:39:46,911
and I heard about this community
in Scotland called Findhorn...
695
00:39:47,012 --> 00:39:50,573
where people sang and talked
and meditated with plants.
696
00:39:50,682 --> 00:39:56,177
And it was founded by several rather
middle-class English and Scottish eccentrics.
697
00:39:56,288 --> 00:39:58,620
Some of them intellectuals,
and some of them not.
698
00:39:58,724 --> 00:40:01,124
And I'd heard that they'd
grown things in soil...
699
00:40:01,226 --> 00:40:04,389
that supposedly nothing can grow in,
'cause it's almost beach soil...
700
00:40:04,496 --> 00:40:08,660
and that they'd built - not built - they'd
grown the largest cauliflowers in the world...
701
00:40:08,767 --> 00:40:10,701
and there are sort of cabbages.
702
00:40:10,803 --> 00:40:14,603
And they've grown trees
that can't grow in the British Isles.
703
00:40:14,706 --> 00:40:17,436
So I went there.
I mean, it is an amazing place, Wally.
704
00:40:17,543 --> 00:40:21,707
I mean, if there are insects
bothering the plants...
705
00:40:21,814 --> 00:40:25,306
they will talk with the insects
and, you know, make an agreement...
706
00:40:25,417 --> 00:40:29,513
by which they'll set aside a special patch
of vegetables just for the insects...
707
00:40:29,621 --> 00:40:31,714
and then the insects
will leave the main part alone.
708
00:40:31,824 --> 00:40:33,815
- Huh.
- Things like that.
709
00:40:33,926 --> 00:40:36,394
And everything they do
they do beautifully.
710
00:40:36,495 --> 00:40:39,259
I mean, the buildings just shine.
711
00:40:39,364 --> 00:40:43,300
And I mean, for instance, the icebox,
the stove, the car- they all have names.
712
00:40:43,402 --> 00:40:45,666
And since you wouldn't treat Helen,
the icebox...
713
00:40:45,771 --> 00:40:48,103
with any less respect
than you would Margaret, your wife...
714
00:40:48,207 --> 00:40:52,075
you know, you make sure that Helen is as clean
as Margaret, or treated with equal respect.
715
00:40:52,177 --> 00:40:54,304
[ Wally Giggles ]
716
00:40:54,413 --> 00:40:58,907
And when I was there, Wally,
I remember being in the woods...
717
00:40:59,017 --> 00:41:03,681
and I would look at a leaf,
and I would actually see that thing...
718
00:41:03,789 --> 00:41:06,952
that is alive in that leaf.
719
00:41:07,059 --> 00:41:10,051
And then I remember just running
through the woods as fast as I could...
720
00:41:10,162 --> 00:41:12,630
with this incredible laugh
coming out of me...
721
00:41:12,731 --> 00:41:17,896
and really being in that state, you know,
where laughter and tears seem to merge.
722
00:41:18,003 --> 00:41:19,971
I mean, it absolutely blasted me open.
723
00:41:20,072 --> 00:41:23,132
When I came out of Findhorn,
I was hallucinating nonstop.
724
00:41:23,242 --> 00:41:25,870
I was seeing clouds as creatures.
725
00:41:25,978 --> 00:41:28,572
The people on the airplane
all had animals' faces.
726
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,707
I mean, I was on a trip. It was like being
in a William Blake world suddenly.
727
00:41:32,818 --> 00:41:34,752
Things were exploding.
728
00:41:34,853 --> 00:41:39,153
So immediately I went to Belgrade,
'cause I wanted to talk to Grotowski.
729
00:41:39,258 --> 00:41:42,489
Grotowski and I got together
at midnight in my hotel room...
730
00:41:42,594 --> 00:41:46,030
and we drank instant coffee
out of the top of my shaving cream...
731
00:41:46,131 --> 00:41:50,192
and we talked from midnight
until 11:00 the next morning.
732
00:41:50,302 --> 00:41:52,770
- God. What did he say?
- Nothing!
733
00:41:52,871 --> 00:41:54,896
I talked. He didn't say a word.
734
00:41:55,007 --> 00:41:58,738
And -And then I guess really...
735
00:41:59,711 --> 00:42:03,704
the last big experience of this kind
took place that fall.
736
00:42:03,815 --> 00:42:05,783
It was out at Montauk on Long Island...
737
00:42:05,884 --> 00:42:09,479
and there were only about nine
of us involved, mostly men.
738
00:42:09,588 --> 00:42:12,580
And we borrowed Dick Avedon's property
out at Montauk.
739
00:42:12,691 --> 00:42:15,819
And the country out there
is like Heathcliff country.
740
00:42:15,928 --> 00:42:18,488
It's absolutely wild.
741
00:42:18,597 --> 00:42:20,997
What we wanted to do was
we wanted to take, you know -
742
00:42:21,099 --> 00:42:23,397
We wanted to take All Souls' Eve,
Halloween...
743
00:42:23,502 --> 00:42:25,834
and use it as a point of departure
for something.
744
00:42:25,938 --> 00:42:29,396
So each one of us prepared
some sort of event for the others...
745
00:42:29,508 --> 00:42:32,306
somehow in the spirit
of All Souls' Eve.
746
00:42:32,411 --> 00:42:35,312
But the biggest event
was three of the people...
747
00:42:35,414 --> 00:42:37,814
kept disappearing
in the middle of the night each night...
748
00:42:37,916 --> 00:42:40,282
and we knew they were
preparing something big...
749
00:42:40,385 --> 00:42:42,353
but we didn't know what.
750
00:42:42,454 --> 00:42:46,652
And midnight on Halloween,
under a dark moon, above these cliffs...
751
00:42:46,758 --> 00:42:50,524
we were all told to gather at the topmost cliff
and that we would be taken somewhere.
752
00:42:50,629 --> 00:42:54,963
And we did.
And we waited, and it was very, very cold.
753
00:42:55,067 --> 00:42:58,730
And then the three of them - Helen, Bill
and Fred - showed up wearing white.
754
00:42:58,837 --> 00:43:02,898
You know, something they'd made out
of sheets - looked a little spooky, not funny.
755
00:43:03,008 --> 00:43:07,707
And they took us into the basement of this house
that had burned down on the property.
756
00:43:07,813 --> 00:43:11,874
And in this ruined basement, they had set up
a table with benches they'd made.
757
00:43:11,984 --> 00:43:17,081
And on this table they had laid out paper,
pencils, wine and glasses.
758
00:43:17,189 --> 00:43:22,456
And we were all asked to sit at the table
and to make out our last will and testament.
759
00:43:22,561 --> 00:43:26,088
You know, to think about and write down
whatever our last words were to the world...
760
00:43:26,198 --> 00:43:28,496
or to somebody we were very close to.
761
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,228
And that's quite a task.
762
00:43:31,336 --> 00:43:34,794
I must have been there for about
an hour and a half or so, maybe two.
763
00:43:34,906 --> 00:43:38,342
And then one at a time they would ask
one of us to come with them...
764
00:43:38,443 --> 00:43:40,411
and I was one of the last.
765
00:43:40,512 --> 00:43:42,912
And they came for me,
and they put a blindfold on me...
766
00:43:43,015 --> 00:43:45,210
and they ran me through these fields -
two people.
767
00:43:45,317 --> 00:43:49,413
And they'd found a kind of potting shed -
you know, a kind of shed, on the grounds...
768
00:43:49,521 --> 00:43:53,013
a little tiny room
that had once had tools in it.
769
00:43:53,125 --> 00:43:56,117
And they took me down the steps,
into this basement...
770
00:43:56,228 --> 00:44:01,097
and the room was just filled
with harsh white light.
771
00:44:01,199 --> 00:44:04,726
Then they told me to get undressed
and give them all my valuables.
772
00:44:04,836 --> 00:44:07,236
Then they put me on a table,
and they sponged me down.
773
00:44:07,339 --> 00:44:11,833
Well, you know, I just started flashing
on-on-on death camps and secret police.
774
00:44:11,943 --> 00:44:15,743
I don't know what happened to the other people,
but I just started to cry uncontrollably.
775
00:44:15,847 --> 00:44:20,375
Uh, then-then they got me to my feet
and they took photographs of me, naked.
776
00:44:20,485 --> 00:44:23,283
And then naked, again blindfolded,
I was run through these forests...
777
00:44:23,388 --> 00:44:26,585
and we came to a kind of tent made of sheets,
with sheets on the ground.
778
00:44:26,692 --> 00:44:28,683
And there were all these naked bodies...
779
00:44:28,794 --> 00:44:32,286
huddling together
for warmth against the cold.
780
00:44:32,397 --> 00:44:34,524
Must have been left there
for about an hour.
781
00:44:34,633 --> 00:44:37,761
And then again, one by one,
one at a time, we were led out.
782
00:44:37,869 --> 00:44:39,837
The blindfold was put on...
783
00:44:39,938 --> 00:44:43,601
and I felt myself being lowered
onto something like a stretcher.
784
00:44:43,709 --> 00:44:48,612
And the stretcher was carried a long way,
very slowly, through these forests...
785
00:44:48,714 --> 00:44:54,482
and then I felt myself
being lowered into the ground.
786
00:44:54,586 --> 00:44:58,283
They had, in fact, dug six graves...
787
00:44:58,390 --> 00:45:01,018
eight feet deep.
788
00:45:01,126 --> 00:45:05,460
And then I felt these pieces of wood
being put on me.
789
00:45:05,564 --> 00:45:08,931
And I cannot tell you, Wally,
what I was going through.
790
00:45:09,034 --> 00:45:12,333
And then the stretcher was lowered
into the grave...
791
00:45:12,437 --> 00:45:14,405
and then this wood was put on me...
792
00:45:14,506 --> 00:45:16,997
and then my valuables were put on me,
in my hands.
793
00:45:17,109 --> 00:45:19,873
And they'd taken, you know,
a kind of sheet or canvas...
794
00:45:19,978 --> 00:45:22,469
and they'd stretched about this much
above my head...
795
00:45:22,581 --> 00:45:25,345
and then they shoveled dirt
into the grave...
796
00:45:26,685 --> 00:45:31,281
so that I really had the feeling
of being buried alive.
797
00:45:33,425 --> 00:45:36,292
And after being in the grave
for about half an hour-
798
00:45:36,395 --> 00:45:39,626
I mean, I didn't know how long
I'd be in there -
799
00:45:39,731 --> 00:45:42,256
I was resurrected,
lifted out of the grave...
800
00:45:42,367 --> 00:45:44,733
blindfold taken off,
and run through these fields.
801
00:45:44,836 --> 00:45:49,273
And we came to a great circle of fire,
with music and hot wine...
802
00:45:49,374 --> 00:45:51,467
and everyone danced until dawn.
803
00:45:51,576 --> 00:45:54,875
[ Chuckling ]
And then at dawn...
804
00:45:54,980 --> 00:45:57,949
to the best of our ability,
we filled up the graves...
805
00:45:58,049 --> 00:46:00,711
and went back to New York.
806
00:46:03,822 --> 00:46:07,519
And that was really the last big event.
I mean, that was the end.
807
00:46:07,626 --> 00:46:09,594
I mean, you know, I began to realize...
808
00:46:09,694 --> 00:46:12,356
I just didn't want to do these things
anymore, you know?
809
00:46:12,464 --> 00:46:16,901
I felt sort of becalmed, you know,
like that chapter in Moby Dick...
810
00:46:17,002 --> 00:46:20,096
where the wind goes out of the sails.
811
00:46:20,205 --> 00:46:22,935
And then last winter, without, uh,
thinking about it very much...
812
00:46:23,041 --> 00:46:27,341
I went to see this agent I know to tell him
I was interested in directing plays again.
813
00:46:27,446 --> 00:46:29,812
Actually,
he seemed a little surprised...
814
00:46:29,915 --> 00:46:33,373
to see that Rip Van Winkle
was still alive.
815
00:46:39,090 --> 00:46:40,990
Mmm.
816
00:46:41,092 --> 00:46:43,083
God.
817
00:46:43,195 --> 00:46:45,060
I didn't know they were so small.
818
00:46:45,163 --> 00:46:47,859
[ André Chuckles ]
819
00:46:47,966 --> 00:46:50,059
; know, frankly...
820
00:46:50,168 --> 00:46:52,966
I'm sort of repelled by the whole story,
if you really want to know.
821
00:46:53,071 --> 00:46:55,471
- What?
- Ah, you know -
822
00:46:55,574 --> 00:46:57,542
Who did I think I was, you know?
823
00:46:57,642 --> 00:47:02,272
I mean, that's the story of some kind
of spoiled princess, you know.
824
00:47:02,380 --> 00:47:04,644
Who did I think I was,
the Shah of Iran?
825
00:47:04,749 --> 00:47:09,516
You know, I really wonder if people such
as myself are really not Albert Speer, Wally.
826
00:47:09,621 --> 00:47:13,819
- You know, Hitler's architect, Albert Speer?
- What?
827
00:47:13,925 --> 00:47:17,554
No, I've been thinking a lot about him recently
because, uh, I think I am Speer.
828
00:47:17,662 --> 00:47:20,688
And I think it's time that I was caught
and tried the way he was.
829
00:47:20,799 --> 00:47:22,426
What are you talking about?
830
00:47:22,534 --> 00:47:26,368
Well, you know, he was a very cultivated man,
an architect, an artist, you know...
831
00:47:26,471 --> 00:47:29,838
so he thought the ordinary rules of life
didn't apply to him either.
832
00:47:32,544 --> 00:47:36,344
I mean, I really feel
that everything I've done...
833
00:47:36,448 --> 00:47:38,973
is horrific, just horrific.
834
00:47:39,084 --> 00:47:42,019
My God. But why?
835
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,682
You see -You see, I've seen a lot of death
in the last few years, Wally...
836
00:47:46,791 --> 00:47:49,089
and there's one thing
that's for sure about death -
837
00:47:49,194 --> 00:47:51,628
You do it alone, you see.
That seems quite certain, you see.
838
00:47:51,730 --> 00:47:54,858
That I've seen. That the people
around your bed mean nothing.
839
00:47:54,966 --> 00:47:57,958
Your reviews mean nothing.
Whatever it is, you do it alone.
840
00:47:58,069 --> 00:48:02,096
And so the question is, when I get on my
deathbed, what kind of a person am I gonna be?
841
00:48:02,207 --> 00:48:05,040
And I'm just very dubious about the kind
of person who would have lived his life...
842
00:48:05,143 --> 00:48:07,043
those last few years the way I did.
843
00:48:07,145 --> 00:48:09,773
Why should you feel that way?
844
00:48:09,881 --> 00:48:14,318
You see, I've had a very rough time
in the last few months, Wally.
845
00:48:14,419 --> 00:48:18,321
Three different people in my family
were in the hospital at the same time.
846
00:48:18,423 --> 00:48:20,357
Then my mother died.
847
00:48:20,458 --> 00:48:23,450
Then Marina had something wrong with her back,
and we were terribly worried about her.
848
00:48:23,562 --> 00:48:26,690
You know, so - so, I mean,
I'm feeling very raw right now.
849
00:48:26,798 --> 00:48:29,926
I mean, uh - I mean, I can't sleep,
my nerves are shot.
850
00:48:30,035 --> 00:48:32,003
I mean, I'm affected by everything.
851
00:48:32,103 --> 00:48:36,199
You know, la-last week I had this really nice
director from Norway over for dinner...
852
00:48:36,308 --> 00:48:38,503
and he's someone
I've known for years and years...
853
00:48:38,610 --> 00:48:40,874
and he's somebody
that I think I'm quite fond of.
854
00:48:40,979 --> 00:48:44,142
And I was sitting there just thinking
that he was a pompous, defensive...
855
00:48:44,249 --> 00:48:46,649
conservative stuffed shirt
who was only interested in the theater.
856
00:48:46,751 --> 00:48:50,209
He was talking and talking. His mother
had been a famous Norwegian comedienne.
857
00:48:50,322 --> 00:48:54,656
I realized he had said "I remember my mother"
at least 400 times during the evening.
858
00:48:54,759 --> 00:48:57,887
And he was telling story after story
about his mother.
859
00:48:57,996 --> 00:49:00,863
You know, I'd heard these stories
20 times in the past.
860
00:49:00,966 --> 00:49:03,662
He was drinking this whole bottle
of bourbon very quietly.
861
00:49:03,768 --> 00:49:05,827
His laugh was so horrible.
862
00:49:05,937 --> 00:49:09,532
You know, I could hear his laugh -
the pain in that laugh, the hollowness.
863
00:49:09,641 --> 00:49:12,041
You know, what being that woman's son
had done to him.
864
00:49:12,143 --> 00:49:15,806
You know, so at a certain point I just had
to ask him to leave - nicely, you know.
865
00:49:15,914 --> 00:49:19,372
I told him I had to get up early
the next morning, 'cause it was so horrible.
866
00:49:19,484 --> 00:49:21,884
It was just as if he had died
in my living room.
867
00:49:21,987 --> 00:49:26,048
You know, then I went into the bathroom
and cried 'cause I felt I'd lost a friend.
868
00:49:26,157 --> 00:49:28,284
And then after he'd gone,
I turned the television on...
869
00:49:28,393 --> 00:49:30,793
and there was this guy who had
just won the something-something.
870
00:49:30,895 --> 00:49:34,331
Some sports event - some kind of a great big
check and some kind of huge silver bottle.
871
00:49:34,432 --> 00:49:36,832
And he, you know - he couldn't stuff
the check in the bottle...
872
00:49:36,935 --> 00:49:40,132
and he put the bottle in front of his nose
and pretended it was his face.
873
00:49:40,238 --> 00:49:42,536
He wasn't really listening
to the guy who was interviewing him...
874
00:49:42,641 --> 00:49:46,077
but he was smiling malevolently at his friends,
and I looked at that guy and I thought...
875
00:49:46,177 --> 00:49:50,170
"What a horrible, empty,
manipulative rat."
876
00:49:50,281 --> 00:49:54,183
Then I thought, "That guy is me."
[ Laughing ]
877
00:49:54,285 --> 00:49:57,448
Then last night actually, you know,
it was our 20th wedding anniversary...
878
00:49:57,555 --> 00:49:59,750
and I took Chiquita to see
this show about Billie Holiday.
879
00:49:59,858 --> 00:50:03,350
I looked at these show business people who
know nothing about Billie Holiday, nothing.
880
00:50:03,461 --> 00:50:07,124
You see, they were really kind of,
in a way, intellectual creeps.
881
00:50:07,232 --> 00:50:11,066
And I suddenly had this feeling.
I mean, you know I was just sitting there,
crying through most of the show.
882
00:50:11,169 --> 00:50:13,967
And I suddenly had this feeling
I was just as creepy as they were...
883
00:50:14,072 --> 00:50:16,006
and that my whole life
had been a sham...
884
00:50:16,107 --> 00:50:18,940
and I didn't have the guts
to be Billie Holiday either.
885
00:50:19,044 --> 00:50:22,878
I mean, I really feel
that I'm just washed up, wiped out.
886
00:50:22,981 --> 00:50:25,677
I feel I've just squandered my life.
887
00:50:29,154 --> 00:50:33,090
André, now, how can you say
something like that?
888
00:50:33,191 --> 00:50:35,091
I mean -
889
00:50:42,834 --> 00:50:48,397
Well, you know, I may be in
a very emotional state right now, Wally...
890
00:50:48,506 --> 00:50:51,566
but since I've come back home I've just
been finding the world we're living in...
891
00:50:51,676 --> 00:50:54,110
more and more upsetting.
892
00:50:54,212 --> 00:50:57,113
I mean, last week I went down
to the Public Theater one afternoon.
893
00:50:57,215 --> 00:50:59,445
You know, when I walked in,
I said hello to everybody...
894
00:50:59,551 --> 00:51:02,384
'cause I know them all, and they all know me,
they're always very friendly.
895
00:51:02,487 --> 00:51:06,321
You know that seven or eight people
told me how wonderful I looked?
896
00:51:06,424 --> 00:51:09,951
And then one person - one - a woman
who runs the casting office, said...
897
00:51:10,061 --> 00:51:12,029
"Gee, you look horrible.
Is something wrong?"
898
00:51:12,130 --> 00:51:15,122
Now, she -You know, we started talking.
Of course, I started telling her things.
899
00:51:15,233 --> 00:51:19,192
And she suddenly burst into tears
because an aunt of hers who's 80...
900
00:51:19,304 --> 00:51:23,502
whom she's very fond of, went into
the hospital for a cataract, which was solved.
901
00:51:23,608 --> 00:51:27,100
But the nurse was so sloppy,
she didn't put the bed rails up...
902
00:51:27,212 --> 00:51:30,306
and so the aunt fell out of bed
and is now a complete cripple.
903
00:51:30,415 --> 00:51:32,781
So you know, we were talking
about hospitals.
904
00:51:32,884 --> 00:51:36,149
Now, you know, this woman,
because of who she is -
905
00:51:36,254 --> 00:51:38,586
You know, 'cause this had happened
to her very, very recently.
906
00:51:38,690 --> 00:51:42,148
- She could see me with complete clarity.
- Uh-huh.
907
00:51:42,260 --> 00:51:44,285
She didn't know anything
about what I'd been going through.
908
00:51:44,395 --> 00:51:46,955
But the other people, what they saw
was this tan, or this shirt...
909
00:51:47,065 --> 00:51:49,033
or the fact that the shirt
goes well with the tan.
910
00:51:49,134 --> 00:51:50,999
So they said, "Gee, you look wonderful."
911
00:51:51,102 --> 00:51:54,401
Now, they're living
in an insane dreamworld.
912
00:51:54,506 --> 00:51:57,737
They're not looking.
That seems very strange to me.
913
00:51:57,842 --> 00:52:01,073
Right, because they just didn't
see anything, somehow...
914
00:52:01,179 --> 00:52:04,512
except, uh, the few little things
that they wanted to see.
915
00:52:07,619 --> 00:52:12,147
Yeah, you know, it's like what happened
just before my mother died.
916
00:52:12,257 --> 00:52:14,691
You know, we'd gone to the hospital
to see my mother...
917
00:52:14,793 --> 00:52:17,159
and I went in to see her...
918
00:52:17,262 --> 00:52:21,790
and I saw this woman who looked as bad
as any survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau.
919
00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:25,597
And I was out in the hall
sort of comforting my father...
920
00:52:25,703 --> 00:52:29,764
when a doctor who was a specialist
in a problem she had with her arm...
921
00:52:29,874 --> 00:52:32,672
went into her room
and came out just beaming.
922
00:52:32,777 --> 00:52:36,543
And he said, "Boy, don't we have
a lot of reason to feel great?
923
00:52:36,648 --> 00:52:40,209
Isn't it wonderful
how she's coming along?"
924
00:52:40,318 --> 00:52:45,221
Now, all he saw was the arm.
That's all he saw.
925
00:52:45,323 --> 00:52:49,760
Now, here's another person
who's existing in a dream.
926
00:52:49,861 --> 00:52:52,295
Who, on top of that,
is a kind of butcher...
927
00:52:52,397 --> 00:52:54,627
who's committing
a kind of familial murder...
928
00:52:54,732 --> 00:52:57,929
because when he comes out of that room,
he psychically kills us...
929
00:52:58,036 --> 00:53:00,027
by taking us into a dream world...
930
00:53:00,138 --> 00:53:03,574
where we become confused
and frightened...
931
00:53:03,675 --> 00:53:06,940
'cause the moment before,
we saw somebody who already looked dead...
932
00:53:07,045 --> 00:53:11,539
and now here comes a specialist
who tells us they're in wonderful shape.
933
00:53:11,649 --> 00:53:14,379
I mean, they were literally
driving my father crazy.
934
00:53:14,485 --> 00:53:17,579
I mean, you know, here's an 82-year-old man
who's very emotional...
935
00:53:17,689 --> 00:53:20,681
and you know, and if you go in one moment,
and you see the person's dying...
936
00:53:20,792 --> 00:53:23,784
and you don't want them to die, and then
a doctor comes out five minutes later...
937
00:53:23,895 --> 00:53:25,863
and tells you they're in wonderful shape -
938
00:53:25,964 --> 00:53:28,558
I mean, you know, you can go crazy.
939
00:53:28,666 --> 00:53:32,432
- Yeah. I know what you mean.
- I mean, the doctor didn't see my mother.
940
00:53:32,537 --> 00:53:35,028
The people at the Public Theater
didn't see me.
941
00:53:35,139 --> 00:53:38,131
I mean, we're just walking around
in some kind of fog.
942
00:53:38,243 --> 00:53:42,339
I think we're all in a trance.
We're walking around like zombies.
943
00:53:42,447 --> 00:53:46,076
I don't - I don't think we're even aware
of ourselves or our own reaction to things.
944
00:53:46,184 --> 00:53:49,017
We -We're just going around all day
like unconscious machines...
945
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,214
and meanwhile there's all of this rage
and worry and uneasiness...
946
00:53:52,323 --> 00:53:54,416
just building up
and building up inside us.
947
00:53:54,525 --> 00:53:56,823
That's right. It just builds up, uh...
948
00:53:56,928 --> 00:54:00,227
and then it just leaps out
inappropriately.
949
00:54:01,733 --> 00:54:04,395
I mean, I remember
when I was, uh, acting in this play...
950
00:54:04,502 --> 00:54:06,470
based on The Master and Margarita
by Bulgakov.
951
00:54:06,571 --> 00:54:08,937
And I was playing the part of the cat.
952
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,474
But they had trouble, uh,
making up my cat suit...
953
00:54:11,576 --> 00:54:15,205
so I didn't get it delivered to me
till the night of the first performance.
954
00:54:15,313 --> 00:54:18,908
Particularly the head - I mean,
I'd never even had a chance to try it on.
955
00:54:19,017 --> 00:54:22,544
And about four of my fellow actors
actually came up to me...
956
00:54:22,654 --> 00:54:25,214
and they said these things
which I just couldn't help thinking...
957
00:54:25,323 --> 00:54:27,291
were attempts to destroy me.
958
00:54:27,392 --> 00:54:31,226
You know, one of them said, uh,
"Oh, well, now that head...
959
00:54:31,329 --> 00:54:33,797
"will totally change your hearing
in the performance.
960
00:54:33,898 --> 00:54:36,958
"You may hear everything
completely differently...
961
00:54:37,068 --> 00:54:39,332
"and it may be very upsetting.
962
00:54:39,437 --> 00:54:42,600
"Now, I was once in a performance
where I was wearing earmuffs...
963
00:54:42,707 --> 00:54:46,370
and I couldn't hear anything
anybody said."
964
00:54:46,477 --> 00:54:50,174
And then another one said, "Oh, you know,
whenever I wear even a hat on stage...
965
00:54:50,281 --> 00:54:52,249
I tend to faint."
966
00:54:52,350 --> 00:54:55,285
I mean, those remarks
were just full of hostility...
967
00:54:55,386 --> 00:54:58,822
because, I mean, if I'd listened to those people,
I would have gone out there on stage...
968
00:54:58,923 --> 00:55:01,721
and I wouldn't have been able to hear anything,
and I would have fainted.
969
00:55:01,826 --> 00:55:03,760
But the hostility
was completely inappropriate...
970
00:55:03,861 --> 00:55:05,829
because, in fact,
those people liked me.
971
00:55:05,930 --> 00:55:09,366
I mean, that hostility was just
some feeling that was, you know...
972
00:55:09,467 --> 00:55:12,300
left over from
some previous experience.
973
00:55:12,403 --> 00:55:15,770
Because somehow
in our social existence today...
974
00:55:15,873 --> 00:55:19,104
we're only allowed to
express our feelings, uh...
975
00:55:19,210 --> 00:55:21,337
weirdly and indirectly.
976
00:55:21,446 --> 00:55:23,880
If you express them directly,
everybody goes crazy.
977
00:55:23,982 --> 00:55:27,145
Well, did you express your feelings
about what those people said to you?
978
00:55:27,251 --> 00:55:31,278
No. [ Chuckles ] I mean, I didn't even know
what I felt till I thought about it later.
979
00:55:31,389 --> 00:55:34,756
And I mean, at the most, you know,
in a situation like that, uh...
980
00:55:34,859 --> 00:55:37,089
even if I had known what I felt...
981
00:55:37,195 --> 00:55:39,891
I might say something,
if I'm really annoyed...
982
00:55:39,998 --> 00:55:43,798
like, uh, "Oh, yeah.
Well, that's just fascinating...
983
00:55:43,901 --> 00:55:47,598
and, uh, I probably will
faint tonight, just as you did."
984
00:55:47,705 --> 00:55:50,572
I do just the same thing myself.
985
00:55:50,675 --> 00:55:53,974
We can't be direct, so we end up
saying the weirdest things.
986
00:55:54,078 --> 00:55:57,275
I mean, I remember a night. It was
a couple of weeks after my mother died.
987
00:55:57,382 --> 00:55:59,282
And I was in pretty bad shape.
988
00:55:59,384 --> 00:56:01,511
And I had dinner with three
relatively close friends...
989
00:56:01,619 --> 00:56:03,587
two of whom had
known my mother quite well...
990
00:56:03,688 --> 00:56:06,213
and all three of whom
had known me for years.
991
00:56:06,324 --> 00:56:09,122
You know that we went through that
entire evening without my being able to...
992
00:56:09,227 --> 00:56:11,161
for a moment,
get anywhere near what -
993
00:56:11,262 --> 00:56:13,457
Not that I wanted to sit
and have this dreary evening...
994
00:56:13,564 --> 00:56:16,431
in which I was talking about all this pain
that I was going through and everything.
995
00:56:16,534 --> 00:56:18,161
Really, not at all.
996
00:56:18,269 --> 00:56:20,430
But the fact that nobody could say...
997
00:56:20,538 --> 00:56:23,371
"Gee, what a shame about your mother"
or "How are you feeling?"
998
00:56:23,474 --> 00:56:26,807
It was just as if nothing had happened.
They were all making these jokes and laughing.
999
00:56:26,911 --> 00:56:28,879
I got quite crazy, as a matter of fact.
1000
00:56:28,980 --> 00:56:31,505
One of these people mentioned
a certain man whom I don't like very much...
1001
00:56:31,616 --> 00:56:35,484
and I started screeching about how
he had just been found in the Bronx River...
1002
00:56:35,586 --> 00:56:39,716
and his penis had dropped off from gonorrhea,
and all kinds of insane things.
1003
00:56:39,824 --> 00:56:44,488
And later, when I got home, I realized I'd just
been desperate to break through this ice.
1004
00:56:44,595 --> 00:56:46,062
Yeah.
1005
00:56:46,164 --> 00:56:50,191
I mean, do you realize, Wally, if you brought
that situation into a Tibetan home -
1006
00:56:50,301 --> 00:56:53,293
That'd be just so far out. I mean,
they wouldn't be able to understand it.
1007
00:56:53,404 --> 00:56:55,838
That would be simply-
simply so weird, Wally.
1008
00:56:55,940 --> 00:56:59,774
If four Tibetans came together,
and tragedy had just struck one of the ones...
1009
00:56:59,877 --> 00:57:04,507
and they spent the whole evening going -
[ Loud Laughing ]
1010
00:57:04,615 --> 00:57:06,845
I mean, you know,
Tibetans would have looked at that...
1011
00:57:06,951 --> 00:57:09,977
and would have thought that was
the most unimaginable behavior.
1012
00:57:10,088 --> 00:57:12,420
- But for us, that's common behavior.
- Mm-hmm.
1013
00:57:12,523 --> 00:57:16,254
I mean, really, the - the Africans would have
probably put their spears into all four of us...
1014
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,294
'cause it would have driven them crazy.
1015
00:57:18,396 --> 00:57:20,921
They would have thought we were
dangerous animals or something like that.
1016
00:57:21,032 --> 00:57:24,832
- Right.
- I mean, that's absolutely abnormal behavior.
1017
00:57:24,936 --> 00:57:27,063
Is everything all right, gentlemen?
1018
00:57:27,171 --> 00:57:29,071
- Great.
- Yeah.
1019
00:57:33,244 --> 00:57:35,439
But those are
typical evenings for us.
1020
00:57:35,546 --> 00:57:39,676
I mean, we go to dinners and parties
like that all the time.
1021
00:57:39,784 --> 00:57:42,810
These evenings are really
like sort of sickly dreams...
1022
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,388
because people are talking in symbols.
1023
00:57:45,490 --> 00:57:49,722
Everyone is sort of floating through
this fog of symbols and unconscious feelings.
1024
00:57:49,827 --> 00:57:52,159
No one says what they're
really thinking about.
1025
00:57:52,263 --> 00:57:57,257
Then people will start making these jokes
that are really some sort of secret code.
1026
00:57:57,368 --> 00:57:59,768
Right. Well, what often happens
in some of these evenings...
1027
00:57:59,871 --> 00:58:04,274
is that these really crazy little fantasies
will just start being played with, you know...
1028
00:58:04,375 --> 00:58:07,469
and everyone will be talking at once
and sort of saying...
1029
00:58:07,578 --> 00:58:11,446
"Hey, wouldn't it be great if Frank Sinatra
and Mrs. Nixon and blah-blah-blah...
1030
00:58:11,549 --> 00:58:14,040
were in such and such a situation?"
1031
00:58:14,152 --> 00:58:17,485
You know, always with famous people,
and always sort of grotesque.
1032
00:58:17,588 --> 00:58:20,216
Or people will be talking about
some horrible thing...
1033
00:58:20,324 --> 00:58:24,784
like - like, uh, the death of that girl
in the car with Ted Kennedy...
1034
00:58:24,896 --> 00:58:27,330
and they'll just be
roaring with laughter.
1035
00:58:27,431 --> 00:58:29,865
I mean, it's really amazing.
It's just unbelievable.
1036
00:58:29,967 --> 00:58:35,064
That's the only way anything is expressed,
through these completely insane jokes.
1037
00:58:35,173 --> 00:58:38,404
I mean, I think that's why I never understand
what's going on at a party.
1038
00:58:38,509 --> 00:58:41,672
I'm always completely confused.
1039
00:58:41,779 --> 00:58:46,512
You know, uh, Debby once said,
after one of these New York evenings...
1040
00:58:46,617 --> 00:58:48,881
she thought she'd traveled
a greater distance...
1041
00:58:48,986 --> 00:58:52,478
just by journeying from her origins
in the suburbs of Chicago...
1042
00:58:52,590 --> 00:58:54,524
to that New York evening...
1043
00:58:54,625 --> 00:58:57,651
than her grandmother had traveled
in, uh, making her way...
1044
00:58:57,762 --> 00:59:00,390
from the steppes of Russia
to the suburbs of Chicago.
1045
00:59:00,498 --> 00:59:02,796
- I think that's right.
- [ Wally Chuckles ]
1046
00:59:03,968 --> 00:59:06,562
You know, it may- it may be, Wally,
that one of the reasons...
1047
00:59:06,671 --> 00:59:08,605
that we don't know
what's going on...
1048
00:59:08,706 --> 00:59:11,573
is that when we're there at a party,
we're all too busy performing.
1049
00:59:11,676 --> 00:59:12,973
Uh-huh.
1050
00:59:13,077 --> 00:59:16,478
That was one of the reasons
that, uh, Grotowski gave up the theater.
1051
00:59:16,581 --> 00:59:20,711
He just felt that people in their lives now
were performing so well...
1052
00:59:20,818 --> 00:59:23,480
that performance in the theater
was sort of superfluous...
1053
00:59:23,588 --> 00:59:25,488
and, in a way, obscene.
1054
00:59:25,590 --> 00:59:27,751
Huh.
1055
00:59:27,858 --> 00:59:30,588
Isn't it amazing
how often a doctor...
1056
00:59:30,695 --> 00:59:33,391
will live up to our expectation
of how a doctor should look?
1057
00:59:33,497 --> 00:59:36,989
When you see a terrorist on television,
he looks just like a terrorist.
1058
00:59:37,101 --> 00:59:39,569
I mean, we live in a world
in which fathers...
1059
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:41,865
or single people, or artists...
1060
00:59:41,973 --> 00:59:44,168
are all trying to live up
to someone's fantasy...
1061
00:59:44,275 --> 00:59:48,234
of how a father, or a single person,
or an artist should look and behave.
1062
00:59:48,346 --> 00:59:51,144
They all act as if they know exactly how
they ought to conduct themselves...
1063
00:59:51,249 --> 00:59:53,149
at every single moment...
1064
00:59:53,251 --> 00:59:55,310
and they all seem totally self-confident.
1065
00:59:55,419 --> 00:59:57,887
Of course, privately people
are very mixed up about themselves.
1066
00:59:57,989 --> 00:59:59,115
Yeah.
1067
00:59:59,223 --> 01:00:01,418
They don't know what they should
be doing with their lives.
1068
01:00:01,525 --> 01:00:03,652
- They're reading all these self-help books.
- Oh, God!
1069
01:00:03,761 --> 01:00:06,252
I mean, those books are just so touching,
because they show...
1070
01:00:06,364 --> 01:00:09,265
how desperately curious we all are
to know how all the others of us...
1071
01:00:09,367 --> 01:00:11,335
are really getting on in life...
1072
01:00:11,435 --> 01:00:14,131
even though, by performing
these roles all the time...
1073
01:00:14,238 --> 01:00:17,230
we're just hiding the reality of ourselves
from everybody else.
1074
01:00:17,341 --> 01:00:19,901
I mean, we live in such
ludicrous ignorance of each other.
1075
01:00:20,011 --> 01:00:22,206
We usually don't know
the things we'd like to know...
1076
01:00:22,313 --> 01:00:24,281
even about our supposedly
closest friends.
1077
01:00:24,382 --> 01:00:26,282
I mean - I mean, you know...
1078
01:00:26,384 --> 01:00:28,875
suppose you're going through
some kind of hell in your own life.
1079
01:00:28,986 --> 01:00:32,353
Well, you would love to know if your friends
have experienced similar things.
1080
01:00:32,456 --> 01:00:34,424
But we just don't dare to ask each other.
1081
01:00:34,525 --> 01:00:36,925
No. It would be like asking
your friend to drop his role.
1082
01:00:37,028 --> 01:00:40,429
I mean, we just put no value at all
on perceiving reality.
1083
01:00:40,531 --> 01:00:44,126
I mean, on the contrary, this incredible
emphasis that we all place now...
1084
01:00:44,235 --> 01:00:46,169
on our so-called careers...
1085
01:00:46,270 --> 01:00:50,900
automatically makes perceiving reality
a very low priority...
1086
01:00:51,008 --> 01:00:55,638
because if your life is organized around
trying to be successful in a career...
1087
01:00:55,746 --> 01:01:00,809
well, it just doesn't matter what
you perceive or what you experience.
1088
01:01:00,918 --> 01:01:04,183
You can really sort of shut your mind off
for years ahead, in a way.
1089
01:01:04,288 --> 01:01:07,223
You can sort of
turn on the automatic pilot.
1090
01:01:07,325 --> 01:01:10,658
You know, just the way your mother's doctor
had on his automatic pilot...
1091
01:01:10,761 --> 01:01:12,956
when he went in
and he looked at the arm...
1092
01:01:13,064 --> 01:01:15,498
and he totally failed
to perceive anything else.
1093
01:01:15,599 --> 01:01:19,558
That's right. Our- Our minds are just
focused on these goals and plans...
1094
01:01:19,670 --> 01:01:21,604
which in themselves
are not reality.
1095
01:01:21,706 --> 01:01:25,039
No. Goals and plans are not -
1096
01:01:25,142 --> 01:01:29,511
I mean, they're - they're fantasy.
They're part of a dream life.
1097
01:01:29,613 --> 01:01:33,140
I mean, you know, it always just
does seem so ridiculous, somehow...
1098
01:01:33,250 --> 01:01:36,913
that everybody has to have
his little - his little goal in life.
1099
01:01:37,021 --> 01:01:41,287
I mean, it's so absurd, in a way, when you
consider that it doesn't matter which one it is.
1100
01:01:41,392 --> 01:01:43,826
Right. And because people's
concentration is on their goals...
1101
01:01:43,928 --> 01:01:46,920
in their life
they just live each moment by habit.
1102
01:01:47,031 --> 01:01:50,159
Really, like the Norwegian telling
the same stories over and over again.
1103
01:01:50,267 --> 01:01:52,792
- Mm-hmm.
- Life becomes habitual.
1104
01:01:52,903 --> 01:01:55,098
And it is today.
1105
01:01:55,206 --> 01:01:57,231
I mean, very few things happen now
like that moment...
1106
01:01:57,341 --> 01:02:00,105
when Marlon Brando sent the Indian woman
to accept the Oscar...
1107
01:02:00,211 --> 01:02:02,111
and everything went haywire.
1108
01:02:02,213 --> 01:02:04,647
Things just very rarely
go haywire now.
1109
01:02:04,749 --> 01:02:07,741
And if you're just operating by habit...
1110
01:02:07,852 --> 01:02:10,650
then you're not really living.
1111
01:02:10,755 --> 01:02:13,383
I mean, you know, in Sanskrit,
the root of the verb "to be"...
1112
01:02:13,491 --> 01:02:15,755
is the same as "to grow"
or "to make grow."
1113
01:02:15,860 --> 01:02:17,760
Huh.
1114
01:02:19,096 --> 01:02:21,121
[ Woman Laughing ]
1115
01:02:21,232 --> 01:02:23,132
- Do you know about Roc?
- Hmm?
1116
01:02:23,234 --> 01:02:25,259
[ Chuckling ]
Oh, well.
1117
01:02:25,369 --> 01:02:27,360
Roc was a wonderful man.
1118
01:02:27,471 --> 01:02:29,735
He was one of the founders
of Findhorn...
1119
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:34,140
and he was one of Scotland's -well,
he was Scotland's greatest mathematician...
1120
01:02:34,245 --> 01:02:36,713
and he was one of the century's
great mathematicians.
1121
01:02:36,814 --> 01:02:41,945
And he prided himself on the fact
that he had no fantasy life, no dream life -
1122
01:02:42,052 --> 01:02:44,680
nothing to stand be -
no imaginary life -
1123
01:02:44,789 --> 01:02:49,192
nothing to stand between him
and the direct perception of mathematics.
1124
01:02:49,293 --> 01:02:53,252
And one day when he was in his mid-50s,
he was walking in the gardens of Edinburgh...
1125
01:02:53,364 --> 01:02:56,197
and he saw a faun.
1126
01:02:56,300 --> 01:02:59,861
The faun was very surprised because fauns
have always been able to see people...
1127
01:02:59,970 --> 01:03:02,598
but you know,
very few people ever see them.
1128
01:03:02,706 --> 01:03:05,368
You know, uh,
those little imaginary creatures.
1129
01:03:05,476 --> 01:03:07,376
- Not a deer.
- Oh.
1130
01:03:07,478 --> 01:03:10,743
- You call them fauns, don't you?
- I thought a fawn was a baby deer.
1131
01:03:10,848 --> 01:03:14,045
Yeah, well, there's a deer that's called a fawn,
but these are like those little imagi...
1132
01:03:14,151 --> 01:03:16,676
- Oh! The kind that Debussy-
- Yes. Right.
1133
01:03:16,787 --> 01:03:20,188
Well, so he got to know the faun,
and he got to know other fauns...
1134
01:03:20,291 --> 01:03:22,555
and a series of conversations began...
1135
01:03:22,660 --> 01:03:25,458
and more and more fauns would
come out every afternoon to meet him.
1136
01:03:25,563 --> 01:03:27,531
And he'd have talks with the fauns.
1137
01:03:27,631 --> 01:03:30,896
Then one day, after a while, when, you know,
they'd really gotten to know him...
1138
01:03:31,001 --> 01:03:33,469
they asked him
if he would like to meet Pan...
1139
01:03:33,571 --> 01:03:35,664
because Pan would like to meet him.
1140
01:03:35,773 --> 01:03:37,798
And of course,
Pan was afraid of terrifying him...
1141
01:03:37,908 --> 01:03:40,502
because he knew
of the Christian misconception...
1142
01:03:40,611 --> 01:03:44,206
which portrayed Pan as an evil creature,
which he's not.
1143
01:03:44,315 --> 01:03:47,250
But Roc said he would love to meet Pan,
and so they met...
1144
01:03:47,351 --> 01:03:50,047
and Pan indirectly sent him
on his way on a journey...
1145
01:03:50,154 --> 01:03:54,454
in which he met the other people
who began Findhorn.
1146
01:03:54,558 --> 01:03:57,652
But Roc used to practice
certain exercises -
1147
01:03:57,761 --> 01:04:00,855
like, uh, for instance,
if he were right-handed...
1148
01:04:00,965 --> 01:04:03,263
all today he would do everything
with his left hand.
1149
01:04:03,367 --> 01:04:06,097
All day- eating, writing,
everything - opening doors...
1150
01:04:06,203 --> 01:04:08,967
in order to break the habits of living.
1151
01:04:09,073 --> 01:04:11,633
Because the great danger,
he felt, for him...
1152
01:04:11,742 --> 01:04:15,007
was to fall into a trance,
out of habit.
1153
01:04:15,112 --> 01:04:19,640
He had a whole series of very simple
exercises that he had invented...
1154
01:04:19,750 --> 01:04:23,914
just to keep
seeing, feeling, remembering.
1155
01:04:24,021 --> 01:04:25,955
Because you have to learn now.
1156
01:04:26,056 --> 01:04:29,025
It didn't used to be necessary,
but today you have to learn something...
1157
01:04:29,126 --> 01:04:31,185
like, uh, are you really hungry...
1158
01:04:31,295 --> 01:04:34,355
or are you just stuffing your face -
[ Laughing ]
1159
01:04:34,465 --> 01:04:36,660
Because that's what you do,
out of habit?
1160
01:04:36,767 --> 01:04:39,361
I mean, you can afford to do it,
so you do it...
1161
01:04:39,470 --> 01:04:41,438
whether you're hungry or not.
1162
01:04:41,539 --> 01:04:44,337
You know, if you go to
the Buddhist Meditation Center...
1163
01:04:44,441 --> 01:04:46,875
they make you taste
each bite of your food...
1164
01:04:46,977 --> 01:04:50,640
so it takes two hours -
it's horrible - to eat your lunch.
1165
01:04:50,748 --> 01:04:54,149
But you're conscious
of the taste of your food.
1166
01:04:54,251 --> 01:04:57,482
If you're just eating out of habit,
then you don't taste the food...
1167
01:04:57,588 --> 01:05:00,455
and you're not conscious of the reality
of what's happening to you.
1168
01:05:00,558 --> 01:05:02,617
You enter the dream world again.
1169
01:05:02,726 --> 01:05:06,162
Now, do you think maybe
we live in this dream world...
1170
01:05:06,263 --> 01:05:09,596
because we do so many things every day
that affect us in ways...
1171
01:05:09,700 --> 01:05:13,136
that somehow
we're just not aware of?
1172
01:05:13,237 --> 01:05:17,537
I mean, you know, I was thinking,
um, last Christmas...
1173
01:05:17,641 --> 01:05:20,804
Debby and I were given
an electric blanket.
1174
01:05:20,911 --> 01:05:25,644
I can tell you that it is just
such a marvelous advance...
1175
01:05:25,749 --> 01:05:30,277
- over our old way of life, and it is just great.
- [ André Chuckling ]
1176
01:05:30,387 --> 01:05:33,823
But, uh, it is quite different
from not having an electric blanket...
1177
01:05:33,924 --> 01:05:36,825
and I sometimes sort of wonder,
well, what is it doing to me?
1178
01:05:36,927 --> 01:05:40,488
I mean, I sort of feel, uh,
I'm not sleeping quite in the same way.
1179
01:05:40,598 --> 01:05:42,498
[ Chuckles ]
No, you wouldn't be.
1180
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:45,501
I mean, uh, and my dreams
are sort of different...
1181
01:05:45,603 --> 01:05:48,401
and I feel a little bit different
when I get up in the morning.
1182
01:05:49,540 --> 01:05:52,998
I wouldn't put an electric blanket on
for anything.
1183
01:05:53,110 --> 01:05:57,843
First, I'd be worried I might get electrocuted.
No, I don't trust technology.
1184
01:05:57,948 --> 01:06:01,543
But I mean, the main thing, Wally,
is that I think that that kind of comfort...
1185
01:06:01,652 --> 01:06:04,780
just separates you from reality
in a very direct way.
1186
01:06:04,888 --> 01:06:07,584
- You mean -
- I mean, if you don't have that electric blanket...
1187
01:06:07,691 --> 01:06:10,387
and your apartment is cold
and you need to put on another blanket...
1188
01:06:10,494 --> 01:06:13,930
or go into the closet and pile up coats
on top of the blankets you have...
1189
01:06:14,031 --> 01:06:16,158
well, then you know it's cold.
1190
01:06:16,266 --> 01:06:18,530
And that sets up a link of things.
1191
01:06:18,636 --> 01:06:22,128
You have compassion for the per-
Well, is the person next to you cold?
1192
01:06:22,239 --> 01:06:24,366
Are there other people in the world
who are cold?
1193
01:06:24,475 --> 01:06:26,909
What a cold night!
I like the cold.
1194
01:06:27,011 --> 01:06:30,447
My God, I never realized.
I don't want a blanket. It's fun being cold.
1195
01:06:30,547 --> 01:06:33,880
I can snuggle up against you even more
because it's cold.
1196
01:06:33,984 --> 01:06:36,544
All sorts of things occur to you.
1197
01:06:36,654 --> 01:06:39,987
Turn on that electric blanket,
and it's like taking a tranquilizer...
1198
01:06:40,090 --> 01:06:42,558
or it's like being lobotomized
by watching television.
1199
01:06:42,660 --> 01:06:44,628
I think you enter
the dream world again.
1200
01:06:46,296 --> 01:06:49,424
I mean, what does it do to us, Wally,
living in an environment...
1201
01:06:49,533 --> 01:06:53,526
where something as massive
as the seasons, or winter, or cold...
1202
01:06:53,637 --> 01:06:55,764
don't in any way affect us?
1203
01:06:55,873 --> 01:06:57,841
I mean, we're animals, after all.
1204
01:06:57,941 --> 01:06:59,841
I mean, what does that mean?
1205
01:06:59,943 --> 01:07:03,037
I think that means that instead
of living under the sun...
1206
01:07:03,147 --> 01:07:05,809
and the moon and the sky
and the stars...
1207
01:07:05,916 --> 01:07:08,714
we're living in a fantasy world
of our own making.
1208
01:07:08,819 --> 01:07:12,152
Yeah, but I mean, I would never
give up my electric blanket, André.
1209
01:07:12,256 --> 01:07:15,020
I mean, because New York
is cold in the winter.
1210
01:07:15,125 --> 01:07:18,322
I mean, our apartment is cold.
It's a difficult environment.
1211
01:07:18,429 --> 01:07:20,556
I mean, our lives
are tough enough as it is.
1212
01:07:20,664 --> 01:07:24,156
I'm not looking for ways to get rid of
the few things that provide relief and comfort.
1213
01:07:24,268 --> 01:07:27,066
I mean, on the contrary,
I'm looking for more comfort...
1214
01:07:27,171 --> 01:07:29,503
because, uh, the world is very abrasive.
1215
01:07:29,606 --> 01:07:32,006
I mean, uh,
I'm trying to protect myself...
1216
01:07:32,109 --> 01:07:35,704
because, really, there are these abrasive
beatings to be avoided everywhere you look.
1217
01:07:35,813 --> 01:07:39,806
But, Wally, don't you - don't you see
that comfort can be dangerous?
1218
01:07:39,917 --> 01:07:43,114
I mean, you like to be comfortable,
and I like to be comfortable too...
1219
01:07:43,220 --> 01:07:46,678
but comfort can lull you
into a dangerous tranquillity.
1220
01:07:47,825 --> 01:07:50,794
I mean, my mother knew
a woman, Lady Hatfield...
1221
01:07:50,894 --> 01:07:52,987
who was one of the richest women
in the world...
1222
01:07:53,097 --> 01:07:56,362
and she died of starvation
because all she would eat was chicken.
1223
01:07:56,467 --> 01:07:59,265
I mean, she just liked chicken, Wally,
and that was all she would eat.
1224
01:07:59,369 --> 01:08:02,429
And actually her body was starving,
but she didn't know it...
1225
01:08:02,539 --> 01:08:06,134
'cause she was quite happy eating her chicken,
and so she finally died.
1226
01:08:06,243 --> 01:08:10,373
See, I honestly believe
that we're all like Lady Hatfield now.
1227
01:08:10,481 --> 01:08:14,417
We're having a lovely, comfortable time
with our electric blankets and our chicken...
1228
01:08:14,518 --> 01:08:18,386
and meanwhile we're starving because
we're so cut off from contact with reality...
1229
01:08:18,489 --> 01:08:22,289
that we're not getting any real sustenance,
'cause we don't see the world.
1230
01:08:22,392 --> 01:08:24,292
We don't see ourselves.
1231
01:08:24,394 --> 01:08:26,521
We don't see how our actions
affect other people.
1232
01:08:26,630 --> 01:08:29,724
Have you read Martin Buber's book
On Hasidism?
1233
01:08:29,833 --> 01:08:32,028
- No.
- Well, here's a view of life.
1234
01:08:32,136 --> 01:08:35,071
I mean, he talks about the belief
of the HasidicJews...
1235
01:08:35,172 --> 01:08:37,072
that there are spirits chained
in everything.
1236
01:08:37,174 --> 01:08:40,075
There are spirits chained in you.
There are spirits chained in me.
1237
01:08:40,177 --> 01:08:42,543
Well, there are spirits chained
in this table.
1238
01:08:42,646 --> 01:08:47,549
And that prayer is the action of liberating
these enchained embryo-like spirits...
1239
01:08:47,651 --> 01:08:49,676
and that every action of ours in life...
1240
01:08:49,787 --> 01:08:52,813
whether it's, uh,
doing business, or making love...
1241
01:08:52,923 --> 01:08:54,891
or having dinner together,
or whatever-
1242
01:08:54,992 --> 01:08:57,586
that every action of ours
should be a prayer...
1243
01:08:57,694 --> 01:08:59,491
a sacrament in the world.
1244
01:08:59,596 --> 01:09:02,156
Now, do you think we're living like that?
1245
01:09:02,266 --> 01:09:04,291
Why do you think
we're not living like that?
1246
01:09:04,401 --> 01:09:07,393
I think it's because if we allowed ourselves
to see what we do every day...
1247
01:09:07,504 --> 01:09:09,472
we might just find it too nauseating.
1248
01:09:09,573 --> 01:09:11,541
I mean, the way we treat other people.
1249
01:09:11,642 --> 01:09:15,203
You know, every day, several times a day,
I walk into my apartment building.
1250
01:09:15,312 --> 01:09:18,770
The doorman calls me Mr. Gregory,
and I call him Jimmy.
1251
01:09:18,882 --> 01:09:21,976
Already, what's the difference
between that...
1252
01:09:22,085 --> 01:09:24,883
and the Southern plantation owner
who's got slaves?
1253
01:09:24,988 --> 01:09:27,980
You see, I think that an act of murder
is committed in that moment...
1254
01:09:28,091 --> 01:09:30,059
when I walk into that building.
1255
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:34,290
Because here's a dignified, intelligent man -
a man of my own age -
1256
01:09:34,398 --> 01:09:37,993
and when I call him Jimmy,
then he becomes a child, and I'm an adult...
1257
01:09:38,101 --> 01:09:40,365
because I can buy my way
into the building.
1258
01:09:40,470 --> 01:09:43,098
Right. That's right.
1259
01:09:43,207 --> 01:09:47,075
I mean, my God,
when I was a Latin teacher...
1260
01:09:47,177 --> 01:09:49,270
I mean, people used to treat me -
1261
01:09:49,379 --> 01:09:52,143
I mean, uh, you know,
if I would go to a party...
1262
01:09:52,249 --> 01:09:55,116
of professional or literary people...
1263
01:09:55,219 --> 01:09:58,711
I mean, I was just treated, uh,
in the nicest sense of the word...
1264
01:09:58,822 --> 01:10:00,449
uh, like a dog.
1265
01:10:00,557 --> 01:10:02,582
I mean, in other words,
there was no question...
1266
01:10:02,693 --> 01:10:06,322
of my being able to participate on
an equal basis in a conversation with people.
1267
01:10:06,430 --> 01:10:08,864
I mean, you know, I'd occasionally
have conversations with people...
1268
01:10:08,966 --> 01:10:11,457
but then, uh,
when they asked what I did...
1269
01:10:11,568 --> 01:10:14,036
which would always happen
after about five minutes...
1270
01:10:14,137 --> 01:10:16,264
uh, you know, their faces -
1271
01:10:16,373 --> 01:10:20,104
Even if they were enjoying the conversation, or
they were flirting with me, or whatever it was -
1272
01:10:20,210 --> 01:10:23,646
their faces would just have that expression
just like the portcullis crashing down.
1273
01:10:23,747 --> 01:10:27,114
You know, those medieval gates.
They would just walk away.
1274
01:10:27,217 --> 01:10:30,550
I mean, I literally lived like a dog.
1275
01:10:30,654 --> 01:10:34,181
And I mean, uh, when Debby was
working as a secretary, you know...
1276
01:10:34,291 --> 01:10:37,852
if she would tell people what she did,
they would just go insane.
1277
01:10:37,961 --> 01:10:40,259
I mean, it would be just
as if she'd said, uh...
1278
01:10:40,364 --> 01:10:45,165
"Oh, well, I've been serving a life sentence
recently, uh, for child murdering."
1279
01:10:46,403 --> 01:10:50,362
I mean, my God, you know, when you talk
about our attitudes toward other people...
1280
01:10:51,742 --> 01:10:53,710
I mean, I think of myself...
1281
01:10:53,810 --> 01:10:57,769
as just a very decent,
good person, you know...
1282
01:10:57,881 --> 01:11:00,213
just because I think
I'm reasonably friendly...
1283
01:11:00,317 --> 01:11:02,547
to most of the people
I happen to meet every day.
1284
01:11:02,653 --> 01:11:05,315
I mean, I really think
of myself quite smugly.
1285
01:11:05,422 --> 01:11:08,516
I just think I'm a perfectly nice guy,
uh, you know...
1286
01:11:08,625 --> 01:11:11,685
so long as I think of the world
as consisting of, you know...
1287
01:11:11,795 --> 01:11:14,559
just the small circle of the people
that I know as friends...
1288
01:11:14,665 --> 01:11:17,657
or the few people that we know
in this little world of our little hobbies -
1289
01:11:17,768 --> 01:11:19,668
the theater or whatever it is.
1290
01:11:19,770 --> 01:11:22,796
And I'm really quite self-satisfied.
I'm just quite happy with myself.
1291
01:11:22,906 --> 01:11:25,033
I just have no complaint about myself.
1292
01:11:25,142 --> 01:11:27,110
I mean, you know, let's face it.
1293
01:11:27,210 --> 01:11:30,976
I mean, there's a whole enormous world
out there that I just don't ever think about.
1294
01:11:31,081 --> 01:11:35,313
I certainly don't take responsibility
for how I've lived in that world.
1295
01:11:35,419 --> 01:11:38,217
I mean, you know, if I were actually
to sort of confront the fact...
1296
01:11:38,322 --> 01:11:40,449
that I'm sort of sharing this stage...
1297
01:11:40,557 --> 01:11:43,048
with-with-with this starving person
in Africa somewhere...
1298
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:45,651
well, I wouldn't feel so great
about myself.
1299
01:11:45,762 --> 01:11:50,461
So naturally I just - I just blot all those
people right out of my perception.
1300
01:11:50,567 --> 01:11:53,661
So, of course -
of course, I'm ignoring...
1301
01:11:53,770 --> 01:11:57,103
a whole section of the real world.
1302
01:11:57,274 --> 01:11:59,708
But frankly, you know...
1303
01:11:59,810 --> 01:12:04,110
when I write a play, in a way, one of the things
I guess I think I'm trying to do...
1304
01:12:04,214 --> 01:12:07,411
is I'm trying to bring myself up
against some little bits of reality...
1305
01:12:07,517 --> 01:12:10,543
and I'm trying to share that, uh,
with an audience.
1306
01:12:12,055 --> 01:12:14,956
I mean - I mean,
of course we all know, uh...
1307
01:12:15,058 --> 01:12:17,583
the theater is, uh,
in terrible shape today.
1308
01:12:17,694 --> 01:12:22,063
I mean, uh - I mean, at least a few years ago
people who really cared about the theater...
1309
01:12:22,165 --> 01:12:24,463
used to say, "The theater is dead."
1310
01:12:24,568 --> 01:12:27,469
And now everybody's redefined
the theater in such a trivial way...
1311
01:12:27,571 --> 01:12:29,505
that, I mean - I mean, God...
1312
01:12:29,606 --> 01:12:33,770
I know people who are involved with
the theater who go to see things now that -
1313
01:12:33,877 --> 01:12:36,209
I mean, a few years ago
these same people...
1314
01:12:36,313 --> 01:12:39,180
would have just been embarrassed
to have even seen some of these plays.
1315
01:12:39,282 --> 01:12:41,807
I mean, they would have just shrunk,
you know, just in horror...
1316
01:12:41,918 --> 01:12:44,113
at the superficiality of these things.
1317
01:12:44,221 --> 01:12:46,781
But now they say,
"Oh, that was pretty good."
1318
01:12:46,890 --> 01:12:48,858
It's just incredible.
1319
01:12:48,959 --> 01:12:52,087
And I really just find that attitude
unbearable...
1320
01:12:52,195 --> 01:12:55,961
because I really do think the theater
can do something very important.
1321
01:12:56,066 --> 01:13:00,935
I mean, I do think the theater can help
bring people in contact with reality.
1322
01:13:01,038 --> 01:13:05,668
Now, now, you may not feel that at all.
You may just find that totally absurd.
1323
01:13:07,077 --> 01:13:10,012
Yeah, but, Wally,
don't you see the dilemma?
1324
01:13:10,113 --> 01:13:14,072
You're not taking into account
the period we're living in.
1325
01:13:14,184 --> 01:13:16,345
I mean, of course that's what
the theater should do.
1326
01:13:16,453 --> 01:13:18,387
I mean, I've always felt that.
1327
01:13:18,488 --> 01:13:21,855
You know, when I was a young director,
and I directed the Bacchae at Yale...
1328
01:13:21,958 --> 01:13:25,223
my impulse, when Pentheus has been
killed by his mother and the Furies...
1329
01:13:25,328 --> 01:13:27,922
and they pull the tree back,
and they tie him to the tree...
1330
01:13:28,031 --> 01:13:31,262
and fling him into the air, and he flies
through space and he's killed...
1331
01:13:31,368 --> 01:13:34,337
and they rip him to shreds
and I guess cut off his head -
1332
01:13:34,438 --> 01:13:38,067
my impulse was that the thing to do was
to get a head from the New Haven morgue...
1333
01:13:38,175 --> 01:13:40,143
and pass it around the audience.
1334
01:13:40,243 --> 01:13:43,076
Now, I wanted Agawe
to bring on a real head...
1335
01:13:43,180 --> 01:13:45,648
and that this head should be
passed around the audience...
1336
01:13:45,749 --> 01:13:49,344
so that somehow people realized
that this stuff was real, see?
1337
01:13:49,453 --> 01:13:51,978
That it was real stuff.
1338
01:13:52,089 --> 01:13:55,820
- Now, the actress playing Agawe
absolutely refused to do it.
- [ Giggling ]
1339
01:13:55,926 --> 01:13:57,985
You know, Gordon Craig
used to talk about...
1340
01:13:58,095 --> 01:14:02,259
why is there gold or silver in the churches
or something - the great cathedrals -
1341
01:14:02,365 --> 01:14:05,892
when actors could be wearing
gold and silver?
1342
01:14:06,002 --> 01:14:09,699
And I mean, people who saw Eleonora Duse
in the last couple of years of her life, Wally-
1343
01:14:09,806 --> 01:14:13,173
people said that is was like
seeing light on stage, or mist...
1344
01:14:13,276 --> 01:14:15,244
or the essence of something.
1345
01:14:15,345 --> 01:14:17,973
I mean, then when you think
about Bertolt Brecht -
1346
01:14:18,081 --> 01:14:21,209
He somehow created a theater
in which people could observe...
1347
01:14:21,318 --> 01:14:23,513
that was vastly entertaining
and exciting...
1348
01:14:23,620 --> 01:14:26,646
but in which the excitement
didn't overwhelm you.
1349
01:14:26,756 --> 01:14:31,022
He somehow allowed you the distance
between the play and yourself...
1350
01:14:31,128 --> 01:14:33,995
that, in fact, two human beings need
in order to live together.
1351
01:14:34,097 --> 01:14:38,124
You know, the question is whether
the theater now can do for an audience...
1352
01:14:38,235 --> 01:14:41,602
what Brecht tried to do
or what Craig or Duse tried to do.
1353
01:14:41,705 --> 01:14:43,605
Can it do it now?
1354
01:14:43,707 --> 01:14:47,040
'Cause, you see, I think that
people today are so deeply asleep...
1355
01:14:47,144 --> 01:14:49,772
that unless, you know, you're putting on
those sort of superficial plays...
1356
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,110
that just help your audience
to sleep more comfortably...
1357
01:14:52,215 --> 01:14:54,979
it's very hard to know
what to do in the theater.
1358
01:14:55,085 --> 01:14:56,985
[ People Chattering, Laughing ]
1359
01:14:57,087 --> 01:15:01,683
Because, you see, I think that if you
put on serious, contemporary plays...
1360
01:15:01,791 --> 01:15:03,691
by writers like yourself...
1361
01:15:03,793 --> 01:15:06,455
you may only be helping to deaden
the audience in a different way.
1362
01:15:06,563 --> 01:15:09,123
What do you mean?
1363
01:15:09,232 --> 01:15:11,257
Well, I mean, Wally...
1364
01:15:11,368 --> 01:15:14,701
how does it affect an audience
to put on one of these plays...
1365
01:15:14,804 --> 01:15:17,773
in which you show that people
are totally isolated now...
1366
01:15:17,874 --> 01:15:21,071
and they can't reach each other,
and their lives are desperate?
1367
01:15:21,178 --> 01:15:24,545
Or how does it affect them to see a play
that shows that our world...
1368
01:15:24,648 --> 01:15:28,812
is full of nothing but shocking
sexual events, and terror, and violence?
1369
01:15:28,919 --> 01:15:31,183
Does that help to wake up
a sleeping audience?
1370
01:15:31,288 --> 01:15:34,416
See, I don't think so,
'cause I think it's very likely...
1371
01:15:34,524 --> 01:15:37,550
that the picture of the world that you're
showing them in a play like that...
1372
01:15:37,661 --> 01:15:40,687
is exactly the picture of the world
they have already.
1373
01:15:40,797 --> 01:15:43,595
I mean, you know, they know
their own lives and relationships...
1374
01:15:43,700 --> 01:15:45,668
are difficult and painful.
1375
01:15:45,769 --> 01:15:47,930
And if they watch the evening news
on television...
1376
01:15:48,038 --> 01:15:51,166
well, there what they see
is a terrifying, chaotic universe...
1377
01:15:51,274 --> 01:15:55,301
full of rapes and murders
and hands cut off by subway cars...
1378
01:15:55,412 --> 01:15:58,939
and children pushing their parents
out of windows.
1379
01:15:59,049 --> 01:16:02,314
So the play tells them that
their impression of the world is correct...
1380
01:16:02,419 --> 01:16:04,387
and that there's absolutely no way out.
1381
01:16:04,487 --> 01:16:06,387
There's nothing they can do.
1382
01:16:06,489 --> 01:16:09,424
And they end up feeling
passive and impotent.
1383
01:16:09,526 --> 01:16:11,994
I mean, look- look, at something
like that christening...
1384
01:16:12,095 --> 01:16:14,393
that my group arranged for me
in the forest in Poland.
1385
01:16:14,497 --> 01:16:17,489
Well, there was an example of something
that really had all the elements of theater.
1386
01:16:17,601 --> 01:16:20,764
It was worked on carefully.
It was thought about carefully.
1387
01:16:20,870 --> 01:16:23,236
It was done with
exquisite taste and magic.
1388
01:16:23,340 --> 01:16:25,467
And they, in fact, created something...
1389
01:16:25,575 --> 01:16:29,306
which, in this case, was, in a way,
just for an audience of one -just for me.
1390
01:16:29,412 --> 01:16:33,280
But they created something
that had ritual, love, surprise...
1391
01:16:33,383 --> 01:16:35,351
denouement,
beginning, a middle and end...
1392
01:16:35,452 --> 01:16:38,717
and was an incredibly beautiful
piece of theater.
1393
01:16:38,822 --> 01:16:41,017
And the impact that it had
on its audience - on me -
1394
01:16:41,124 --> 01:16:43,422
was somehow a totally positive one.
1395
01:16:43,526 --> 01:16:45,994
It didn't deaden me.
It brought me to life.
1396
01:16:48,898 --> 01:16:51,162
Yeah, but I mean, are you saying
that it's impossible -
1397
01:16:51,268 --> 01:16:55,398
I mean, uh - I mean -
I mean, uh, isn't it a little upsetting...
1398
01:16:55,505 --> 01:16:59,305
to come to the conclusion that there's
no way to wake people up anymore...
1399
01:16:59,409 --> 01:17:03,709
except to involve them in some kind
of a strange, uh, christening in Poland...
1400
01:17:03,813 --> 01:17:06,373
or some kind of a strange experience
on top of Mount Everest?
1401
01:17:06,483 --> 01:17:10,852
I mean, uh, because, uh,
you know that the awful thing is...
1402
01:17:10,954 --> 01:17:13,149
if you really say that it's-it's necessary...
1403
01:17:13,256 --> 01:17:15,781
to, uh, take everybody to, uh, Everest...
1404
01:17:15,892 --> 01:17:19,885
it's really tough, because everybody
can't be taken to Everest.
1405
01:17:19,996 --> 01:17:23,193
I mean, there must have been periods in history
when it would have been possible...
1406
01:17:23,300 --> 01:17:26,235
to, uh, save the patient
through less drastic measures.
1407
01:17:26,336 --> 01:17:28,930
I mean, there must have been periods
when in order to give people...
1408
01:17:29,039 --> 01:17:31,007
a strong or meaningful experience...
1409
01:17:31,107 --> 01:17:34,076
you wouldn't actually have to
take them to Everest.
1410
01:17:34,177 --> 01:17:36,475
But you do now.
In some way or other, you do now.
1411
01:17:36,579 --> 01:17:39,377
You know, there was a time when you
could have just, for instance, written...
1412
01:17:39,482 --> 01:17:42,883
I don't know,
uh, Sense and Sensibility byJane Austen.
1413
01:17:42,986 --> 01:17:46,615
And I'm sure the people who read it had
a pretty strong experience. I'm sure they did.
1414
01:17:46,723 --> 01:17:49,385
I mean, all right, now you're saying
that people today wouldn't get it.
1415
01:17:49,492 --> 01:17:53,121
Maybe that's true. But I mean, isn't there
any kind of writing or any kind of a play-
1416
01:17:53,229 --> 01:17:55,697
I mean, isn't it still legitimate
for writers...
1417
01:17:55,799 --> 01:17:59,064
to try to portray reality
so that people can see it?
1418
01:17:59,169 --> 01:18:03,230
I mean, really, tell me, why do we
require a trip to Mount Everest...
1419
01:18:03,340 --> 01:18:05,638
in order to be able to perceive
one moment of reality?
1420
01:18:05,742 --> 01:18:08,540
I mean - I mean, is Mount Everest
more real than New York?
1421
01:18:08,645 --> 01:18:10,670
I mean, isn't New York real?
1422
01:18:10,780 --> 01:18:14,876
I mean, you see, I think if you
could become fully aware...
1423
01:18:14,984 --> 01:18:18,442
of what existed in the cigar store
next door to this restaurant...
1424
01:18:18,555 --> 01:18:20,523
I think it would just
blow your brains out.
1425
01:18:20,623 --> 01:18:23,114
I mean - I mean, isn't there
just as much reality to be perceived...
1426
01:18:23,226 --> 01:18:25,194
in a cigar store
as there is on Mount Everest?
1427
01:18:25,295 --> 01:18:26,887
I mean, what do you think?
1428
01:18:26,996 --> 01:18:29,658
I think that not only is there nothing
more real about Mount Everest...
1429
01:18:29,766 --> 01:18:31,791
I think there's nothing that different,
in a certain way.
1430
01:18:31,901 --> 01:18:34,392
I mean, because reality
is uniform, in a way...
1431
01:18:34,504 --> 01:18:36,472
so that if your-
if your perceptions are -
1432
01:18:36,573 --> 01:18:39,371
I mean, if your own mechanism
is operating correctly...
1433
01:18:39,476 --> 01:18:42,775
it would become irrelevant to go
to Mount Everest, and sort of absurd...
1434
01:18:42,879 --> 01:18:45,677
because, I mean - it just -
I mean, of course, on some level, I mean...
1435
01:18:45,782 --> 01:18:49,377
obviously it's very different
from a cigar store on 7th Avenue.
1436
01:18:49,486 --> 01:18:52,683
- But I mean -
- Well, I agree with you, Wally.
1437
01:18:52,789 --> 01:18:55,451
But the problem is that people
can't see the cigar store now.
1438
01:18:55,558 --> 01:18:58,026
I mean, things don't affect people
the way they used to.
1439
01:18:58,128 --> 01:19:00,528
I mean, it may very well be
that 10 years from now...
1440
01:19:00,630 --> 01:19:03,360
people will pay $10,000 in cash
to be castrated...
1441
01:19:03,466 --> 01:19:06,094
just in order to be affected by something.
1442
01:19:07,704 --> 01:19:10,798
Well, why-why do you think that is?
I mean, why is that?
1443
01:19:10,907 --> 01:19:15,367
I mean, is it just because people
are lazy today, or they're bored?
1444
01:19:15,478 --> 01:19:18,572
I mean, are we just
like bored, spoiled children...
1445
01:19:18,681 --> 01:19:21,172
who've just been lying
in the bathtub all day...
1446
01:19:21,284 --> 01:19:23,582
just playing with their plastic duck...
1447
01:19:23,686 --> 01:19:27,053
and now they're just thinking,
"Well, what can I do?"
1448
01:19:28,625 --> 01:19:31,389
Okay. Yes. We're bored.
1449
01:19:31,461 --> 01:19:33,429
We're all bored now.
1450
01:19:33,530 --> 01:19:35,725
But has it every occurred to you, Wally,
that the process...
1451
01:19:35,832 --> 01:19:38,323
that creates this boredom
that we see in the world now...
1452
01:19:38,435 --> 01:19:42,804
may very well be a self-perpetuating,
unconscious form of brainwashing...
1453
01:19:42,906 --> 01:19:46,137
created by a world totalitarian government
based on money...
1454
01:19:46,242 --> 01:19:48,870
and that all of this is much more dangerous
than one thinks...
1455
01:19:48,978 --> 01:19:51,811
and it's not just a question
of individual survival, Wally...
1456
01:19:51,915 --> 01:19:54,315
but that somebody who's bored
is asleep...
1457
01:19:54,417 --> 01:19:57,545
and somebody who's asleep
will not say no?
1458
01:19:57,654 --> 01:20:00,452
See, I keep meeting these people -
I mean, uh, just a few days ago...
1459
01:20:00,557 --> 01:20:02,491
I met this man whom I greatly admire.
1460
01:20:02,592 --> 01:20:04,890
He's a Swedish physicist.
Gustav Björnstrand.
1461
01:20:04,994 --> 01:20:07,519
And he told me that he
no longer watches television...
1462
01:20:07,630 --> 01:20:10,531
he doesn't read newspapers,
and he doesn't read magazines.
1463
01:20:10,633 --> 01:20:12,897
He's completely
cut them out of his life...
1464
01:20:13,002 --> 01:20:17,462
because he really does feel that we're living
in some kind of Orwellian nightmare now...
1465
01:20:17,574 --> 01:20:21,601
and that everything that you hear now
contributes to turning you into a robot.
1466
01:20:22,712 --> 01:20:26,341
And when I was at Findhorn, I met
this extraordinary English tree expert...
1467
01:20:26,449 --> 01:20:28,542
who had devoted his life
to saving trees.
1468
01:20:28,651 --> 01:20:31,017
Just got back from Washington,
lobbying to save the redwoods.
1469
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:33,953
He's 84 years old,
and he always travels with a backpack...
1470
01:20:34,057 --> 01:20:36,025
'cause he never knows
where he's gonna be tomorrow.
1471
01:20:36,125 --> 01:20:39,117
And when I met him at Findhorn,
he said to me, "Where are you from?"
1472
01:20:39,229 --> 01:20:42,255
I said, "New York." He said, "Ah, New York.
Yes, that's a very interesting place.
1473
01:20:42,365 --> 01:20:46,267
Do you know a lot of New Yorkers who keep
talking about the fact that they want to leave,
but never do?"
1474
01:20:46,369 --> 01:20:48,997
And I said, "Oh, yes." And he said,
"Why do you think they don't leave?"
1475
01:20:49,105 --> 01:20:52,973
I gave him different banal theories.
He said, "Oh, I don't think it's that way at all."
1476
01:20:53,076 --> 01:20:57,638
He said, "I think that New York is the new
model for the new concentration camp...
1477
01:20:57,747 --> 01:21:00,181
"where the camp has been built
by the inmates themselves...
1478
01:21:00,283 --> 01:21:03,844
"and the inmates are the guards, and they
have this pride in this thing they've built.
1479
01:21:03,953 --> 01:21:05,853
"They've built their own prison.
1480
01:21:05,955 --> 01:21:07,946
"And so they exist
in a state of schizophrenia...
1481
01:21:08,057 --> 01:21:09,957
"where they are both guards
and prisoners.
1482
01:21:10,059 --> 01:21:13,426
"And as a result, they no longer have -
having been lobotomized -
1483
01:21:13,530 --> 01:21:15,896
"the capacity to leave
the prison they've made...
1484
01:21:15,999 --> 01:21:18,866
or to even see it as a prison."
1485
01:21:18,968 --> 01:21:22,165
And then he went into his pocket,
and he took out a seed for a tree...
1486
01:21:22,272 --> 01:21:24,206
and he said, "This is a pine tree."
1487
01:21:24,307 --> 01:21:27,902
He put it in my hand and he said,
"Escape before it's too late."
1488
01:21:29,178 --> 01:21:31,840
See, actually,
for two or three years now...
1489
01:21:31,948 --> 01:21:36,214
Chiquita and I have had this very unpleasant
feeling that we really should get out.
1490
01:21:36,319 --> 01:21:39,083
We really feel likeJews in Germany
in the late '30s.
1491
01:21:39,188 --> 01:21:41,088
Get out of here.
1492
01:21:41,190 --> 01:21:43,249
Of course, the problem is
where to go.
1493
01:21:43,359 --> 01:21:48,160
'Cause it seems quite obvious that the
whole world is going in the same direction.
1494
01:21:50,233 --> 01:21:53,498
See, I think it's quite possible
that the 1960s...
1495
01:21:53,603 --> 01:21:58,302
represented the last burst of the human being
before he was extinguished...
1496
01:21:58,408 --> 01:22:01,070
and that this is the beginning
of the rest of the future, now...
1497
01:22:01,177 --> 01:22:05,238
and that from now on there'll simply be
all these robots walking around...
1498
01:22:05,348 --> 01:22:07,646
feeling nothing, thinking nothing.
1499
01:22:07,750 --> 01:22:10,685
And there'll be nobody left almost
to remind them...
1500
01:22:10,787 --> 01:22:14,052
that there once was a species
called a human being...
1501
01:22:14,157 --> 01:22:16,125
with feelings and thoughts...
1502
01:22:16,225 --> 01:22:19,058
and that history and memory
are right now being erased...
1503
01:22:19,162 --> 01:22:22,063
and soon nobody
will really remember...
1504
01:22:22,165 --> 01:22:24,360
that life existed on the planet.
1505
01:22:26,035 --> 01:22:30,472
Now, of course, Björnstrand feels
that there's really almost no hope...
1506
01:22:30,573 --> 01:22:33,940
and that we're probably
going back to a very savage...
1507
01:22:34,043 --> 01:22:37,069
lawless, terrifying period.
1508
01:22:37,180 --> 01:22:39,614
Findhorn people
see it a little differently.
1509
01:22:39,716 --> 01:22:42,549
They're feeling that there'll be
these pockets of light...
1510
01:22:42,652 --> 01:22:44,711
springing up
in different parts of the world...
1511
01:22:44,821 --> 01:22:49,121
and that these will be, in a way,
invisible planets on this planet...
1512
01:22:49,225 --> 01:22:51,716
and that as we, or the world,
grow colder...
1513
01:22:51,828 --> 01:22:55,423
we can take invisible space journeys
to these different planets...
1514
01:22:55,531 --> 01:22:58,967
refuel for what it is we need to do
on the planet itself...
1515
01:22:59,068 --> 01:23:01,366
and come back.
1516
01:23:01,471 --> 01:23:04,338
And it's their feeling that
there have to be centers now...
1517
01:23:04,440 --> 01:23:08,740
where people can come and reconstruct
a new future for the world.
1518
01:23:08,845 --> 01:23:10,813
And when I was talking
to, uh, Gustav Björnstrand...
1519
01:23:10,913 --> 01:23:14,144
he was saying that actually these centers
are growing up everywhere now...
1520
01:23:14,250 --> 01:23:17,242
and that what they're trying to do,
which is what Findhorn was trying to do...
1521
01:23:17,353 --> 01:23:19,548
and, in a way, what I was trying to do -
1522
01:23:19,656 --> 01:23:21,988
I mean,
these things can't be given names...
1523
01:23:22,091 --> 01:23:26,289
but in a way, these are all attempts
at creating a new kind of school...
1524
01:23:26,396 --> 01:23:28,591
or a new kind of monastery.
1525
01:23:28,698 --> 01:23:31,166
And Björnstrand talks about
the concept of "reserves" -
1526
01:23:31,267 --> 01:23:34,031
islands of safety where history
can be remembered...
1527
01:23:34,137 --> 01:23:36,697
and the human being
can continue to function...
1528
01:23:36,806 --> 01:23:40,435
in order to maintain the species
through a dark age.
1529
01:23:42,545 --> 01:23:44,877
In other words, we're talking
about an underground...
1530
01:23:44,981 --> 01:23:47,609
which did exist in a different way
during the Dark Ages...
1531
01:23:47,717 --> 01:23:50,413
among the mystical orders
of the church.
1532
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:52,613
And the purpose of this underground...
1533
01:23:52,722 --> 01:23:57,887
is to find out how to preserve
the light, life, the culture...
1534
01:23:57,994 --> 01:24:01,430
how to keep things living.
1535
01:24:01,531 --> 01:24:04,432
You see, I keep thinking
that what we need...
1536
01:24:04,534 --> 01:24:07,332
is a new language -
1537
01:24:07,437 --> 01:24:09,564
a language of the heart...
1538
01:24:09,672 --> 01:24:13,608
a language, as in the Polish forest,
where language wasn't needed.
1539
01:24:13,710 --> 01:24:18,647
Some kind of language between people
that is a new kind of poetry...
1540
01:24:18,748 --> 01:24:23,276
that's the poetry of the dancing bee
that tells us where the honey is.
1541
01:24:23,386 --> 01:24:26,446
And I think that in order
to create that language...
1542
01:24:26,556 --> 01:24:30,048
you're going to have to learn how
you can go through a looking glass...
1543
01:24:30,159 --> 01:24:32,127
into another kind of perception...
1544
01:24:32,228 --> 01:24:37,131
where you have that sense
of being united to all things...
1545
01:24:37,233 --> 01:24:40,430
and suddenly you understand everything.
1546
01:24:44,841 --> 01:24:48,538
[ Siren Wailing In Distance]
1547
01:24:49,579 --> 01:24:51,843
Are you ready for some dessert?
1548
01:24:51,948 --> 01:24:54,075
Uh, I think I'll just have an espresso.
Thank you.
1549
01:24:54,183 --> 01:24:58,119
- Very good.
- I'll - I'll also have one. Thank you.
1550
01:24:58,221 --> 01:25:01,520
And -And, uh, could I also
have, uh, an amaretto?
1551
01:25:01,624 --> 01:25:04,252
Certainly, sir.
1552
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:06,453
Thank you.
1553
01:25:06,562 --> 01:25:10,828
You see, Wally, there's this incredible
building that they built at Findhorn.
1554
01:25:10,933 --> 01:25:13,527
And the man who designed it
had never designed anything in his life.
1555
01:25:13,636 --> 01:25:15,570
He wrote children's books.
1556
01:25:15,671 --> 01:25:18,834
And some people wanted it to be
a sort of hall of meditation...
1557
01:25:18,941 --> 01:25:21,341
and others wanted it to be
a kind of lecture hall.
1558
01:25:21,444 --> 01:25:25,505
But the psychic part of the community
wanted it to serve another function as well...
1559
01:25:25,615 --> 01:25:29,210
because they wanted it to be a kind
of spaceship which at night could rise up...
1560
01:25:29,318 --> 01:25:32,082
and let the U.F.O.'s know that this
was a safe place to land...
1561
01:25:32,188 --> 01:25:34,156
and that they would find friends there.
1562
01:25:34,257 --> 01:25:38,023
So, the problem was -
'cause it needed a massive kind of roof-
1563
01:25:38,127 --> 01:25:41,187
was how to have a roof
that would stay on the building...
1564
01:25:41,297 --> 01:25:44,733
but at the same time be able to fly up
at night and meet the flying saucers.
1565
01:25:44,834 --> 01:25:47,564
So, the architect
meditated and meditated...
1566
01:25:47,670 --> 01:25:50,468
and he finally came up with
the very simple solution...
1567
01:25:50,573 --> 01:25:52,871
of not actually joining the roof
to the building...
1568
01:25:52,975 --> 01:25:54,943
which means that it should fall off...
1569
01:25:55,044 --> 01:25:58,172
because they have great gales
up in northern Scotland.
1570
01:25:58,281 --> 01:26:01,773
So, to keep it from falling off,
he got beach stones from the beach -
1571
01:26:01,884 --> 01:26:04,648
or we did,
'cause I-I worked on this building -
1572
01:26:04,754 --> 01:26:06,813
all up and down the roof,
just like that.
1573
01:26:06,923 --> 01:26:11,223
And the idea was that the energy
that would flow from stone to stone...
1574
01:26:11,327 --> 01:26:13,295
would be so strong, you see...
1575
01:26:13,396 --> 01:26:16,695
that it would keep the roof down
under any conditions...
1576
01:26:16,799 --> 01:26:21,293
but at the same time, if the roof needed
to go up, it would be light enough to go up.
1577
01:26:21,404 --> 01:26:25,067
Well - [ Chuckling ]
it works, you see.
1578
01:26:25,174 --> 01:26:27,734
Now, architects
don't know why it works...
1579
01:26:27,844 --> 01:26:29,812
and it shouldn't work,
'cause it should fall off.
1580
01:26:29,912 --> 01:26:31,812
But it works. It does work.
1581
01:26:31,914 --> 01:26:35,611
The gales blow, and the roof should fall off,
but it doesn't fall off.
1582
01:26:36,853 --> 01:26:38,684
[ Man Coughing ]
1583
01:26:40,289 --> 01:26:42,189
Yep.
1584
01:26:42,291 --> 01:26:44,191
Well, uh...
1585
01:26:45,328 --> 01:26:48,024
do you want to know
my actual response to all this?
1586
01:26:48,130 --> 01:26:50,428
- Do you want to hear my actual response?
- Yes!
1587
01:26:52,235 --> 01:26:54,499
See, my actual response -
I mean -
1588
01:26:54,604 --> 01:26:59,667
[ Laughing ] I mean - I mean,
I'm just trying to - to survive, you know?
1589
01:26:59,775 --> 01:27:02,903
I mean,
I'm just trying to earn a living...
1590
01:27:03,012 --> 01:27:05,640
just trying to pay my rent and my bills.
1591
01:27:05,748 --> 01:27:08,114
I mean, uh -
1592
01:27:08,217 --> 01:27:11,550
Ah, I live my life.
1593
01:27:11,654 --> 01:27:14,714
I enjoy staying home with Debby.
1594
01:27:14,824 --> 01:27:17,657
I'm reading Charlton Heston's
autobiography.
1595
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:19,387
And that's that.
1596
01:27:19,495 --> 01:27:22,396
I mean, you know -
I mean, occasionally, maybe...
1597
01:27:22,498 --> 01:27:26,935
Debby and I will step outside,
we'll go to a party or something.
1598
01:27:27,036 --> 01:27:30,472
And if I can occasionally get my little talent
together and write a little play...
1599
01:27:30,573 --> 01:27:32,768
well, then that's just -
that's just wonderful.
1600
01:27:32,875 --> 01:27:35,844
And I mean, I enjoy reading about
other little plays people have written...
1601
01:27:35,945 --> 01:27:39,312
and reading the reviews of those plays
and what people said about them...
1602
01:27:39,415 --> 01:27:42,612
and what people said
about what people said.
1603
01:27:42,718 --> 01:27:47,155
And I mean, I have - I have a list of errands
and responsibilities that I keep in a notebook.
1604
01:27:47,256 --> 01:27:49,724
I enjoy going through the notebook...
1605
01:27:49,825 --> 01:27:52,225
carrying out the responsibilities,
doing the errands...
1606
01:27:52,328 --> 01:27:55,491
and crossing them off the list.
1607
01:27:55,598 --> 01:28:00,035
And, I mean, I just - I just don't know
how anybody could enjoy anything more...
1608
01:28:00,136 --> 01:28:04,505
than I enjoy, uh, reading
Charlton Heston's autobiography...
1609
01:28:04,607 --> 01:28:07,405
or, uh, you know, uh,
getting up in the morning...
1610
01:28:07,510 --> 01:28:11,002
and having the cup of cold coffee
that's been waiting for me all night...
1611
01:28:11,113 --> 01:28:13,581
still there for me
to drink in the morning...
1612
01:28:13,683 --> 01:28:17,084
and no cockroach or fly
has-has died in it overnight.
1613
01:28:17,186 --> 01:28:19,848
I mean, I'm just so thrilled
when I get up...
1614
01:28:19,956 --> 01:28:23,414
and I see that coffee there,
just the way I wanted it.
1615
01:28:23,526 --> 01:28:25,790
I mean, I just can't imagine...
1616
01:28:25,895 --> 01:28:28,455
how anybody could enjoy something else
any more than that.
1617
01:28:28,564 --> 01:28:32,398
I mean - I mean, obviously, if the cockroach -
if there is a dead cockroach in it...
1618
01:28:32,501 --> 01:28:35,265
well, then I just have a feeling
of disappointment, and I'm sad.
1619
01:28:35,371 --> 01:28:38,499
But I mean, I - I just -
I just don't think...
1620
01:28:38,607 --> 01:28:40,871
I feel the need for anything more
than all this.
1621
01:28:40,977 --> 01:28:43,571
Whereas, you know,
you seem to be saying...
1622
01:28:43,679 --> 01:28:46,580
that, uh...
1623
01:28:46,682 --> 01:28:50,049
it's inconceivable that anybody could
be having a meaningful life today...
1624
01:28:50,152 --> 01:28:52,279
and, you know,
everyone is totally destroyed...
1625
01:28:52,388 --> 01:28:54,948
and we all need to live
in these outposts.
1626
01:28:55,057 --> 01:28:57,685
But I mean, you know,
I just can't believe - even for you -
1627
01:28:57,793 --> 01:29:01,126
I mean, don't you find - Isn't it pleasant
just to get up in the morning...
1628
01:29:01,230 --> 01:29:04,666
and there's Chiquita,
there are the children...
1629
01:29:04,767 --> 01:29:07,201
and The Times is delivered,
you can read it.
1630
01:29:07,303 --> 01:29:10,170
I mean, maybe you'll direct a play,
maybe you won't direct a play.
1631
01:29:10,272 --> 01:29:12,900
But forget about the play
that you may or may not direct.
1632
01:29:13,009 --> 01:29:17,571
Why is it necessary to -Why not lean back
and just enjoy these details?
1633
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:22,208
I mean, and there'd be a delicious cup
of coffee and a piece of coffeecake.
1634
01:29:22,318 --> 01:29:24,980
I mean, why is it necessary
to have more than this...
1635
01:29:25,087 --> 01:29:27,419
or to even think about
having more than this?
1636
01:29:27,523 --> 01:29:30,822
I mean, I don't really know
what you're talking about.
1637
01:29:32,128 --> 01:29:34,756
I mean - I mean,
I know what you're talking about...
1638
01:29:34,864 --> 01:29:37,662
but I don't really know
what you're talking about.
1639
01:29:37,767 --> 01:29:40,964
And I mean, you know, even if I were
to totally agree with you, you know...
1640
01:29:41,070 --> 01:29:44,267
and even if I were to accept the idea
that there's just no way for anybody...
1641
01:29:44,373 --> 01:29:46,398
to have personal happiness now...
1642
01:29:46,509 --> 01:29:48,875
well, you know,
I still couldn't accept the idea...
1643
01:29:48,978 --> 01:29:51,606
that the way to make life wonderful
would be to just totally...
1644
01:29:51,714 --> 01:29:54,012
you know,
reject Western civilization...
1645
01:29:54,116 --> 01:29:57,449
and fall back into some kind of belief
in some kind of weird something -
1646
01:29:57,553 --> 01:29:59,953
I mean, I don't even know how
to begin talking about this...
1647
01:30:00,056 --> 01:30:03,389
but you know, in the Middle Ages...
1648
01:30:03,492 --> 01:30:07,053
before the arrival of
scientific thinking as we know it today...
1649
01:30:07,163 --> 01:30:09,461
well, people could believe anything.
1650
01:30:09,565 --> 01:30:12,159
Anything could be true -
the statue of the Virgin Mary...
1651
01:30:12,268 --> 01:30:14,327
could speak or bleed
or whatever it was.
1652
01:30:14,437 --> 01:30:16,405
But the wonderful thing
that happened...
1653
01:30:16,505 --> 01:30:19,474
was that then in the development
of science in the Western world...
1654
01:30:19,575 --> 01:30:24,308
certain things did come slowly
to be known and understood.
1655
01:30:24,413 --> 01:30:26,973
I mean, you know...
1656
01:30:27,083 --> 01:30:30,519
obviously, all ideas in science
are constantly being revised.
1657
01:30:30,619 --> 01:30:32,519
I mean, that's the whole point.
1658
01:30:32,621 --> 01:30:37,581
But we do at least know that the universe
has some shape and order...
1659
01:30:37,693 --> 01:30:42,187
and that, uh, you know, trees do not
turn into people or goddesses...
1660
01:30:42,298 --> 01:30:44,596
and there are very good reasons
why they don't...
1661
01:30:44,700 --> 01:30:46,964
and you can't just believe
absolutely anything.
1662
01:30:47,069 --> 01:30:48,969
Whereas, the things
that you're talking about -
1663
01:30:49,071 --> 01:30:52,598
I mean - I mean, you found
the handprint in the book...
1664
01:30:52,708 --> 01:30:56,667
and there were - there were three Andrés
and one Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.
1665
01:30:56,779 --> 01:30:59,543
And to me that is a coincidence.
1666
01:30:59,648 --> 01:31:02,583
But -And-And then, you know,
the people who put that book together...
1667
01:31:02,685 --> 01:31:04,880
well, they had their own reasons
for putting it together.
1668
01:31:04,987 --> 01:31:08,184
But to you it was significant, as if that book
had been written 40 years ago...
1669
01:31:08,290 --> 01:31:12,249
so that you would see it,
as if it was planned for you, in a way.
1670
01:31:12,361 --> 01:31:14,420
I mean, really- I mean -
1671
01:31:14,530 --> 01:31:19,058
I mean, all right, let's say, if I get
a fortune cookie in a Chinese restaurant...
1672
01:31:19,168 --> 01:31:21,159
I mean, of course,
even I have a tendency-
1673
01:31:21,270 --> 01:31:24,068
I mean, you know - I mean, of course,
I would hardly throw it out.
1674
01:31:24,173 --> 01:31:27,142
I mean, I read it.
I read it, and - and, uh -
1675
01:31:27,243 --> 01:31:30,474
I just instinctively sort of-
You know, if it says something like, uh...
1676
01:31:30,579 --> 01:31:34,208
"A conversation with a dark-haired man
will be very important for you"...
1677
01:31:34,316 --> 01:31:37,308
well, I just instinctively think, you know,
"Who do I know who has dark hair?
1678
01:31:37,419 --> 01:31:40,183
Did we have a conversation?
What did we talk about?"
1679
01:31:40,289 --> 01:31:44,589
In other words, uh, there's something
in me that makes me read it...
1680
01:31:44,693 --> 01:31:48,322
and I instinctively interpret it
as if it were an omen of the future.
1681
01:31:48,430 --> 01:31:51,957
But in my conscious opinion, which is
so fundamental to my whole view of life -
1682
01:31:52,067 --> 01:31:55,230
I mean, I would just have to change totally
to not have this opinion.
1683
01:31:55,337 --> 01:31:57,305
In my conscious opinion,
this is simply something...
1684
01:31:57,406 --> 01:32:01,570
that was written in the cookie factory
several years ago and in no way refers to me.
1685
01:32:01,677 --> 01:32:04,407
I mean, you know,
the - the fact that I got it -
1686
01:32:04,513 --> 01:32:07,243
I mean, the man who wrote it
did not know anything about me.
1687
01:32:07,349 --> 01:32:09,340
I mean, he could not have known
anything about me.
1688
01:32:09,451 --> 01:32:12,079
There's no way that this cookie
could actually have to do with me.
1689
01:32:12,188 --> 01:32:14,713
And the fact that I've gotten it
is just basically a joke.
1690
01:32:14,823 --> 01:32:17,621
And I mean, if I were gonna go
on a trip on an airplane...
1691
01:32:17,726 --> 01:32:19,717
and I got a fortune cookie
that said "Don't go"...
1692
01:32:19,828 --> 01:32:23,594
I mean, of course, I admit I might feel
a bit nervous for about one second.
1693
01:32:23,699 --> 01:32:26,167
But in fact, I would go because,
I mean...
1694
01:32:26,268 --> 01:32:28,702
that trip is gonna be successful
or unsuccessful...
1695
01:32:28,804 --> 01:32:31,398
based on the state of the airplane
and the state of the pilot.
1696
01:32:31,507 --> 01:32:34,237
And the cookie is in no position
to know about that.
1697
01:32:34,343 --> 01:32:36,243
And I mean, you know, it's the same...
1698
01:32:36,345 --> 01:32:39,109
with any kind of, uh, prophecy,
or a sign, or an omen.
1699
01:32:39,215 --> 01:32:43,584
Because if you believe in omens,
then that means that the universe -
1700
01:32:43,686 --> 01:32:46,086
I mean, I don't even know how
to begin to describe this.
1701
01:32:46,188 --> 01:32:49,646
That means that the future
is somehow sending messages...
1702
01:32:49,758 --> 01:32:51,817
backwards to the present.
1703
01:32:51,927 --> 01:32:55,226
Which-Which means that the future
must exist in some sense already...
1704
01:32:55,331 --> 01:32:58,300
in order to be able
to send these messages.
1705
01:32:58,400 --> 01:33:02,530
And it also means that things in the universe
are there for a purpose - to give us messages.
1706
01:33:02,638 --> 01:33:05,038
Whereas I think that things
in the universe are just there.
1707
01:33:05,140 --> 01:33:07,040
I mean, they don't mean anything.
1708
01:33:07,142 --> 01:33:11,602
I mean, you know, if the turtle's egg falls out
of the tree and splashes on the paving stones...
1709
01:33:11,714 --> 01:33:14,774
it's just because that turtle was clumsy-
by accident.
1710
01:33:14,883 --> 01:33:18,979
And-And to decide whether to send
my ships off to war on the basis of that...
1711
01:33:19,088 --> 01:33:21,147
seems a big mistake to me.
1712
01:33:21,257 --> 01:33:24,852
Well, what information would
you send your ships to war on?
1713
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:26,655
Because if it's all meaningless...
1714
01:33:26,762 --> 01:33:28,753
what's the difference whether
you accept the fortune cookie...
1715
01:33:28,864 --> 01:33:30,889
or the statistics
of the Ford Foundation?
1716
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:32,968
It doesn't seem to matter.
1717
01:33:33,068 --> 01:33:37,198
Well, the meaningless fact
of the fortune cookie or the turtle's egg...
1718
01:33:37,306 --> 01:33:41,072
can't possibly have any relevance
to the subject you're analyzing.
1719
01:33:41,176 --> 01:33:44,407
Whereas a group of meaningless facts
that are collected and interpreted...
1720
01:33:44,513 --> 01:33:47,914
in a scientific way
may quite possibly be relevant.
1721
01:33:48,017 --> 01:33:50,679
Because the wonderful thing
about scientific theories about things...
1722
01:33:50,786 --> 01:33:54,381
is that they're based on experiments
that can be repeated.
1723
01:33:55,491 --> 01:33:57,391
Hmm.
1724
01:34:12,341 --> 01:34:14,434
Well, it's true, Wally.
1725
01:34:14,543 --> 01:34:17,239
I mean, you know,
following omens and so on...
1726
01:34:17,346 --> 01:34:20,076
is probably just a way
of letting ourselves off the hook...
1727
01:34:20,182 --> 01:34:24,482
so that we don't have to take individual
responsibility for our own actions.
1728
01:34:24,586 --> 01:34:26,884
But I mean, giving yourself over
to the unconscious...
1729
01:34:26,989 --> 01:34:32,291
can leave you vulnerable to all sorts
of very frightening manipulation.
1730
01:34:32,394 --> 01:34:35,727
And in all the work that I was involved in,
there was always that danger.
1731
01:34:35,831 --> 01:34:39,358
And there was always that question
of tampering with people's lives...
1732
01:34:39,468 --> 01:34:43,097
because if I lead one of these workshops,
then I do become partly a doctor...
1733
01:34:43,205 --> 01:34:45,298
and partly a therapist,
and partly a priest.
1734
01:34:45,407 --> 01:34:49,810
And I'm not a doctor,
or a therapist, or a priest.
1735
01:34:49,912 --> 01:34:52,472
And already some
of these new monasteries...
1736
01:34:52,581 --> 01:34:55,141
or communities or whatever
we've been talking about...
1737
01:34:55,250 --> 01:34:57,275
are becoming institutionalized...
1738
01:34:57,386 --> 01:35:00,583
and I guess even in a way, at times,
sort of fascistic.
1739
01:35:00,689 --> 01:35:04,716
You know, there's a sort of self-satisfied
elitist paranoia that grows up -
1740
01:35:04,827 --> 01:35:07,853
a feeling of"them" and "us" -
that is very unsettling.
1741
01:35:07,963 --> 01:35:12,161
But I mean, uh, the thing is, Wally, I think
it's the exaggerated worship of science...
1742
01:35:12,267 --> 01:35:14,235
that has led us into this situation.
1743
01:35:14,336 --> 01:35:16,930
I mean, science has been held up to us
as a magical force...
1744
01:35:17,039 --> 01:35:19,007
that would somehow solve everything.
1745
01:35:19,108 --> 01:35:21,303
Well, quite the contrary.
It's done quite the contrary.
1746
01:35:21,410 --> 01:35:23,378
It's destroyed everything.
1747
01:35:23,479 --> 01:35:25,447
So that is what has really led,
I think...
1748
01:35:25,547 --> 01:35:29,506
to this very strong, deep reaction
against science that we're seeing now...
1749
01:35:29,618 --> 01:35:32,314
just as the Nazi demons that were
released in the '30s in Germany...
1750
01:35:32,421 --> 01:35:36,221
were probably a reaction against
a certain oppressive kind of knowledge...
1751
01:35:36,325 --> 01:35:38,759
and culture and rational thinking.
1752
01:35:38,861 --> 01:35:42,388
So I agree that we're talking about
something potentially very dangerous.
1753
01:35:42,498 --> 01:35:45,729
But modern science has not been
particularly less dangerous.
1754
01:35:45,834 --> 01:35:47,768
Right. Well, I agree with you.
1755
01:35:47,870 --> 01:35:49,838
I completely agree.
1756
01:35:51,707 --> 01:35:54,175
No, you know, the truth is...
1757
01:35:54,276 --> 01:35:58,406
I think I do know what really disturbs me
about the work you've described...
1758
01:35:58,514 --> 01:36:01,506
and I don't even know if I can express it.
1759
01:36:01,617 --> 01:36:05,485
But somehow it seems that the whole point
of the work that you did in those workshops...
1760
01:36:05,587 --> 01:36:09,489
when you get right down to it
and you ask what was it really about -
1761
01:36:09,591 --> 01:36:11,525
The whole point, really, I think...
1762
01:36:11,627 --> 01:36:14,755
was to enable the people in the workshops,
including yourself...
1763
01:36:14,863 --> 01:36:19,232
to somehow sort of strip away
every scrap of purposefulness...
1764
01:36:19,334 --> 01:36:21,859
from certain selected moments.
1765
01:36:21,970 --> 01:36:25,201
And the point of it was so that you would
then all be able to experience...
1766
01:36:25,307 --> 01:36:28,504
somehow just pure being.
1767
01:36:28,610 --> 01:36:32,478
In other words, you were trying
to discover what it would be like
to live for certain moments...
1768
01:36:32,581 --> 01:36:35,675
without having any particular thing
that you were supposed to be doing.
1769
01:36:35,784 --> 01:36:38,116
And I think
I just simply object to that.
1770
01:36:38,220 --> 01:36:41,314
I mean, I just don't think I accept the idea
that there should be moments...
1771
01:36:41,423 --> 01:36:43,584
in which you're not trying
to do anything.
1772
01:36:43,692 --> 01:36:47,685
[ Chuckling ] I think, uh,
it's our nature, uh, to do things.
1773
01:36:47,796 --> 01:36:49,696
I think we should do things.
1774
01:36:49,798 --> 01:36:51,891
I think that, uh, purposefulness...
1775
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:56,334
is part of our ineradicable
basic human structure.
1776
01:36:56,438 --> 01:36:59,236
And to say that we ought to
be able to live without it...
1777
01:36:59,341 --> 01:37:03,300
is like saying that, uh, a tree ought to
be able to live without branches or roots.
1778
01:37:03,412 --> 01:37:06,108
But - But actually, without branches
or roots, it wouldn't be a tree.
1779
01:37:06,215 --> 01:37:09,048
I mean, it would just be a log.
Do you see what I'm saying?
1780
01:37:09,151 --> 01:37:10,778
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
1781
01:37:10,886 --> 01:37:14,253
I mean, in other words, if I'm sitting at home
and I have nothing to do...
1782
01:37:14,356 --> 01:37:16,256
well, I naturally reach for a book.
1783
01:37:16,358 --> 01:37:20,055
I mean, what would be so great about
just sitting there and, uh, doing nothing?
1784
01:37:20,162 --> 01:37:22,062
It just seems absurd.
1785
01:37:22,164 --> 01:37:23,722
And if Debby is there?
1786
01:37:25,000 --> 01:37:26,900
Well, that's just the same thing.
1787
01:37:27,002 --> 01:37:29,869
I mean, is there really
such a thing as, uh...
1788
01:37:29,972 --> 01:37:33,874
two people doing nothing
but just being together?
1789
01:37:33,976 --> 01:37:35,967
I mean, would they simply then...
1790
01:37:36,078 --> 01:37:39,138
be, uh, "relating,"
to use the word we're always using?
1791
01:37:39,248 --> 01:37:41,148
I mean, what would that mean?
1792
01:37:41,250 --> 01:37:43,218
I mean, either we're
gonna have a conversation...
1793
01:37:43,318 --> 01:37:45,445
or we're going to, uh,
carry out the garbage...
1794
01:37:45,554 --> 01:37:49,115
or we're going to do something,
separately or together.
1795
01:37:49,224 --> 01:37:51,124
I mean, do you see what I'm saying?
1796
01:37:51,226 --> 01:37:55,094
I mean, what does it mean
to just, uh, simply, uh, sit there?
1797
01:37:55,197 --> 01:37:57,495
That makes you nervous.
1798
01:37:57,599 --> 01:38:02,002
Well, well, why shouldn't it make me nervous?
It just seems ridiculous to me.
1799
01:38:02,104 --> 01:38:04,072
That's interesting, Wally.
1800
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:09,040
You know, when I went to Ladakh in western
Tibet and stayed on a farm for a month...
1801
01:38:09,144 --> 01:38:13,012
well, there, you know, when people come over
in the evening for tea, nobody says anything.
1802
01:38:13,115 --> 01:38:15,208
Unless there's something to say,
but there almost never is.
1803
01:38:15,317 --> 01:38:18,844
So they just sit there and drink their tea,
and it doesn't seem to bother them.
1804
01:38:21,857 --> 01:38:24,621
I mean, you see, the trouble, Wally,
with always being active and doing things...
1805
01:38:24,726 --> 01:38:27,820
is that I think it's quite possible
to do all sorts of things...
1806
01:38:27,930 --> 01:38:31,331
and at the same time
be completely dead inside.
1807
01:38:31,433 --> 01:38:33,833
I mean, you're doing all these things,
but are you doing them...
1808
01:38:33,936 --> 01:38:36,029
because you really feel
an impulse to do them...
1809
01:38:36,138 --> 01:38:38,868
or are you doing them mechanically,
as we were saying before?
1810
01:38:38,974 --> 01:38:41,568
Because I really do believe
that if you're just living mechanically...
1811
01:38:41,677 --> 01:38:43,907
then you have to change your life.
1812
01:38:44,012 --> 01:38:47,004
I mean, you know, when you're young,
you go out on dates all the time.
1813
01:38:47,115 --> 01:38:50,016
You go dancing or something.
You're floating free.
1814
01:38:50,118 --> 01:38:53,246
And then one day suddenly
you find yourself in a relationship...
1815
01:38:53,355 --> 01:38:55,482
and suddenly everything freezes.
1816
01:38:55,591 --> 01:38:58,355
And this can be true
in your work as well.
1817
01:38:58,460 --> 01:39:01,258
And I mean, of course,
if you're really alive inside...
1818
01:39:01,363 --> 01:39:03,331
then of course there's no problem.
1819
01:39:03,432 --> 01:39:05,662
I mean, if you're living with somebody
in one little room...
1820
01:39:05,767 --> 01:39:08,565
and there's a life going on between you
and the person you're living with...
1821
01:39:08,670 --> 01:39:13,130
well, then a whole adventure
can be going on right in that room.
1822
01:39:13,241 --> 01:39:16,836
But there's always the danger
that things can go dead.
1823
01:39:16,945 --> 01:39:20,506
Then I really do think you have to kind of
become a hobo or something, you know...
1824
01:39:20,616 --> 01:39:22,743
like Kerouac,
and go out on the road.
1825
01:39:22,851 --> 01:39:25,012
I really believe that.
1826
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:28,954
You know, it's not that wonderful
to spend your life on the road.
1827
01:39:29,057 --> 01:39:33,585
My own overwhelming preference
is to stay in that room if you can.
1828
01:39:33,695 --> 01:39:36,892
But you know, if you live with somebody for
a long time, people are constantly saying...
1829
01:39:36,999 --> 01:39:40,628
"Well, of course it's not as great
as it used to be, but that's only natural.
1830
01:39:40,736 --> 01:39:44,172
The first blush of a romance goes,
and that's the way it has to be."
1831
01:39:44,272 --> 01:39:47,469
Now, I totally disagree with that.
1832
01:39:47,576 --> 01:39:52,240
But I do think that you have to constantly ask
yourself the question, with total frankness:
1833
01:39:52,347 --> 01:39:54,440
Is your marriage still a marriage?
1834
01:39:54,549 --> 01:39:56,710
Is the sacramental element there?
1835
01:39:56,818 --> 01:39:59,412
Just as you have to ask about
the sacramental element in your work-
1836
01:39:59,521 --> 01:40:01,853
Is it still there?
1837
01:40:01,957 --> 01:40:04,619
I mean, it's a very frightening thing, Wally,
to have to suddenly realize...
1838
01:40:04,726 --> 01:40:08,958
that, my God, I thought I was living my life,
but in fact I haven't been a human being.
1839
01:40:09,064 --> 01:40:10,964
I've been a performer.
1840
01:40:11,066 --> 01:40:14,229
I haven't been living. I've been acting.
I've - I've acted the role of the father.
1841
01:40:14,336 --> 01:40:17,863
I've acted the role of the husband.
I've acted the role of the friend.
1842
01:40:17,973 --> 01:40:21,374
I've acted the role of the writer,
or director, or what have you.
1843
01:40:21,476 --> 01:40:25,344
I've lived in the same room with this person,
but I haven't really seen them.
1844
01:40:25,447 --> 01:40:29,474
I haven't really heard them.
I haven't really been with them.
1845
01:40:29,584 --> 01:40:32,246
Yeah, I know some people
are just sometimes...
1846
01:40:32,354 --> 01:40:34,948
uh, existing just side by side.
1847
01:40:35,057 --> 01:40:39,960
I mean, uh, the other person's, uh, face
could just turn into a great wolf s face...
1848
01:40:40,062 --> 01:40:42,860
and, uh, it just wouldn't be noticed.
1849
01:40:42,964 --> 01:40:46,263
And it wouldn't be noticed, no.
It wouldn't be noticed.
1850
01:40:47,602 --> 01:40:49,763
I mean, when I was in Israel
a little while ago -
1851
01:40:49,871 --> 01:40:52,465
I mean, I have this picture of Chiquita
that was taken when she -
1852
01:40:52,574 --> 01:40:56,169
I always carry it with me. It was taken
when she was about 26 or something.
1853
01:40:56,278 --> 01:40:59,076
And it's in summer,
and she's stretched out on a terrace...
1854
01:40:59,181 --> 01:41:02,116
in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt
that's kind of pulled up.
1855
01:41:02,217 --> 01:41:04,708
And she's slim and sensual
and beautiful.
1856
01:41:04,820 --> 01:41:09,154
And I've always looked at that picture
and just thought about just how sexy she looks.
1857
01:41:09,257 --> 01:41:11,623
And then last year in Israel,
I looked at the picture...
1858
01:41:11,727 --> 01:41:15,993
and I realized that that face in the picture
was the saddest face in the world.
1859
01:41:16,098 --> 01:41:19,158
That girl at that time was just lost...
1860
01:41:19,267 --> 01:41:21,235
so sad and so alone.
1861
01:41:21,336 --> 01:41:24,863
I've been carrying this picture for years
and not ever really seeing what it is, you know.
1862
01:41:24,973 --> 01:41:28,101
I just never really
looked at the picture.
1863
01:41:30,145 --> 01:41:34,445
And then, at a certain point , I realized I'd
just gone for a good 18 years unable to feel...
1864
01:41:34,549 --> 01:41:36,744
except in the most extreme situations.
1865
01:41:36,852 --> 01:41:39,844
I mean, to some extent, I still had
the ability to live in my work.
1866
01:41:39,955 --> 01:41:41,855
That was why I was such a work junkie.
1867
01:41:41,957 --> 01:41:46,155
That was why I felt that every play that I did
was a matter of my life or my death.
1868
01:41:46,261 --> 01:41:48,422
But in my real life, I was dead.
1869
01:41:48,530 --> 01:41:51,090
I was a robot.
1870
01:41:51,199 --> 01:41:54,134
I mean, I didn't even allow myself
to get angry or annoyed.
1871
01:41:54,236 --> 01:41:57,034
I mean, you know, today
Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina -
1872
01:41:57,139 --> 01:42:00,973
All day long, as people do, they do things that
annoy me and they say things that annoy me.
1873
01:42:01,076 --> 01:42:03,840
And today I get annoyed.
And they say, "Why are you annoyed?"
1874
01:42:03,945 --> 01:42:06,038
And I say, "Because you're annoying,"
you know.
1875
01:42:07,749 --> 01:42:10,013
And when I allowed myself
to consider the possibility...
1876
01:42:10,118 --> 01:42:12,643
of not spending
the rest of my life with Chiquita...
1877
01:42:12,754 --> 01:42:16,451
I realized that what I wanted most in life
was to always be with her.
1878
01:42:17,893 --> 01:42:21,226
But at that time, I hadn't learned what
it would be like to let yourself react...
1879
01:42:21,329 --> 01:42:23,229
to another human being.
1880
01:42:23,331 --> 01:42:25,322
And if you can't react
to another person...
1881
01:42:25,433 --> 01:42:28,596
then there's no possibility
of action or interaction.
1882
01:42:28,703 --> 01:42:33,731
And if there isn't, I don't really know
what the word "love" means...
1883
01:42:33,842 --> 01:42:38,609
except duty, obligation,
sentimentality, fear.
1884
01:42:41,082 --> 01:42:43,573
I mean -
[ Chuckling ]
1885
01:42:44,619 --> 01:42:46,644
I don't know about you, Wally, but I -
1886
01:42:46,755 --> 01:42:50,782
I just had to put myself into a kind of training
program to learn how to be a human being.
1887
01:42:50,892 --> 01:42:53,087
I mean, how did I feel about anything?
I didn't know.
1888
01:42:53,195 --> 01:42:57,495
What kind of things did I like? What kind of
people did I really want to be with? You know?
1889
01:42:57,599 --> 01:42:59,999
And the only way
that I could think of to find out...
1890
01:43:00,101 --> 01:43:04,037
was to just cut out all the noise
and stop performing all the time...
1891
01:43:04,139 --> 01:43:07,472
and just listen to what was inside me.
1892
01:43:07,576 --> 01:43:10,568
See, I think a time comes
when you need to do that.
1893
01:43:10,679 --> 01:43:13,739
Now, maybe in order to do it,
you have to go to the Sahara...
1894
01:43:13,849 --> 01:43:15,817
and maybe you can do it at home.
1895
01:43:15,917 --> 01:43:18,249
But you need to cut out the noise.
1896
01:43:20,488 --> 01:43:22,388
[ Car Horn Honks On Street ]
1897
01:43:22,490 --> 01:43:24,458
Yeah. Of course, personally,
I-I just, uh -
1898
01:43:24,559 --> 01:43:28,222
I usually don't, uh - [ Chuckles ]
like those quiet moments, you know.
1899
01:43:28,330 --> 01:43:29,957
I really don't.
1900
01:43:30,065 --> 01:43:34,764
I mean, uh, I don't know if
it's that, uh, Freudian thing or what -
1901
01:43:34,870 --> 01:43:37,532
But, uh, you know, the fear
of unconscious impulses...
1902
01:43:37,639 --> 01:43:40,802
or my own aggression
or whatever, but, uh...
1903
01:43:40,909 --> 01:43:44,572
if things get too quiet, and I find myself
just, uh, sitting there...
1904
01:43:44,679 --> 01:43:46,647
you know,
as we were saying before...
1905
01:43:46,748 --> 01:43:51,344
I mean, whether I'm by myself,
or-or I'm-I'm with someone else...
1906
01:43:51,453 --> 01:43:54,513
I just, uh -
I just have this feeling of...
1907
01:43:54,623 --> 01:43:58,650
uh, my God,
I'm going to be revealed.
1908
01:43:58,760 --> 01:44:02,890
In other words, I'm adequate
to do any sort of a task, um...
1909
01:44:02,998 --> 01:44:06,934
but I'm not adequate, uh,
just to - to be a human being.
1910
01:44:07,035 --> 01:44:08,935
I mean, in other words, I'm not, uh -
1911
01:44:09,037 --> 01:44:12,336
If I'm just, uh, trapped there
and I'm not allowed to do things...
1912
01:44:12,440 --> 01:44:15,841
but all I can do is just,
um, be there...
1913
01:44:15,944 --> 01:44:18,174
well, I'll just fail.
1914
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:20,248
I mean, in other words, uh...
1915
01:44:20,348 --> 01:44:22,748
I can pass any other sort of a test...
1916
01:44:22,851 --> 01:44:26,617
and, you know, I can even get an "A"
if I put in the required effort...
1917
01:44:26,721 --> 01:44:28,848
but I just don't, uh -
1918
01:44:28,957 --> 01:44:31,653
I just don't have a clue
how to pass this test.
1919
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:35,161
I mean - I mean, of course,
I realize this isn't a test...
1920
01:44:35,263 --> 01:44:37,959
but, um, I see it as a test...
1921
01:44:38,066 --> 01:44:40,091
and I feel I'm going to fail it.
1922
01:44:40,201 --> 01:44:42,135
I mean, it's - it's very scary.
1923
01:44:42,237 --> 01:44:46,469
I just feel, uh, just totally at sea.
I mean -
1924
01:44:46,574 --> 01:44:49,042
Well, you know,
I could imagine a life, Wally...
1925
01:44:49,144 --> 01:44:53,911
in which each day would become
an incredible, monumental, creative task...
1926
01:44:54,015 --> 01:44:56,176
and we're not necessarily up to it.
1927
01:44:56,284 --> 01:44:59,720
I mean, if you felt like walking out
on the person you live with, you'd walk out.
1928
01:44:59,821 --> 01:45:01,789
Then if you felt like it,
you'd come back.
1929
01:45:01,890 --> 01:45:05,553
But meanwhile, the other person
would have reacted to your walking out.
1930
01:45:05,660 --> 01:45:08,891
It would be a life of such feeling.
1931
01:45:08,997 --> 01:45:11,295
I mean, what was amazing
in the workshops I led...
1932
01:45:11,399 --> 01:45:14,994
was how quickly people seemed
to fall into enthusiasm...
1933
01:45:15,103 --> 01:45:19,437
celebration, joy, wonder,
abandon, wildness, tenderness.
1934
01:45:19,541 --> 01:45:21,702
Could we stand to live like that?
1935
01:45:21,810 --> 01:45:24,779
Yeah, I think it's that moment of contact
with another person.
1936
01:45:24,879 --> 01:45:26,779
I mean, that's what scares us.
1937
01:45:26,881 --> 01:45:30,282
I mean, that moment of being
face to face with another person.
1938
01:45:30,385 --> 01:45:32,285
I mean, now -
[ Laughs ]
1939
01:45:32,387 --> 01:45:36,619
You wouldn't think it would be so frightening.
It's strange that we find it so frightening.
1940
01:45:36,725 --> 01:45:38,625
Well, it isn't that strange.
1941
01:45:38,727 --> 01:45:41,855
I mean, first of all, there are some
pretty good reasons for being frightened.
1942
01:45:41,963 --> 01:45:46,297
I mean, you know, the human being
is a complex and dangerous creature.
1943
01:45:46,401 --> 01:45:49,029
I mean, really,
if you start living each moment?
1944
01:45:49,137 --> 01:45:51,071
Christ, that's quite a challenge.
1945
01:45:51,172 --> 01:45:54,767
I mean, if you really reach out and you're
really in touch with the other person...
1946
01:45:54,876 --> 01:45:58,312
well, that really is something
to strive for, I think, I really do.
1947
01:45:58,413 --> 01:46:01,075
Yeah, it's just so pathetic
if one doesn't do that.
1948
01:46:01,182 --> 01:46:05,551
Of course there's a problem, because the closer
you come, I think, to another human being...
1949
01:46:05,653 --> 01:46:08,713
the more completely mysterious -
and unreachable -
1950
01:46:08,823 --> 01:46:10,723
that person becomes.
1951
01:46:10,825 --> 01:46:14,454
I mean, you know, you have to reach out,
you have to go back and forth with them...
1952
01:46:14,562 --> 01:46:18,521
and you have to relate, and yet you're
relating to a ghost or something.
1953
01:46:18,633 --> 01:46:20,601
I don't know,
because we're ghosts.
1954
01:46:20,702 --> 01:46:24,468
We're phantoms.
Who are we?
1955
01:46:24,572 --> 01:46:27,439
And that's to face, to confront the fact
that you're completely alone.
1956
01:46:27,542 --> 01:46:30,272
And to accept that you're alone
is to accept death.
1957
01:46:30,378 --> 01:46:33,609
You mean, because somehow when you
are alone, you're alone with death.
1958
01:46:33,715 --> 01:46:37,879
I mean, nothing's obstructing your view of it,
or something like that.
1959
01:46:37,986 --> 01:46:39,783
Right.
1960
01:46:39,888 --> 01:46:42,755
You know, if I understood it correctly,
I think, uh, Heidegger said...
1961
01:46:42,857 --> 01:46:47,123
that, uh, if you were to experience
your own being to the full...
1962
01:46:47,228 --> 01:46:52,165
you'd be experiencing the decay
of that being toward death...
1963
01:46:52,267 --> 01:46:54,633
as a part of your experience.
1964
01:46:54,736 --> 01:46:57,864
You know, in the sexual act there's
that moment of complete forgetting...
1965
01:46:57,972 --> 01:46:59,599
which is so incredible.
1966
01:46:59,707 --> 01:47:01,902
Then in the next moment,
you start to think about things:
1967
01:47:02,010 --> 01:47:04,240
work on the play,
what you've got to do tomorrow.
1968
01:47:04,345 --> 01:47:07,781
I don't know if this is true of you,
but I think it must be quite common.
1969
01:47:07,882 --> 01:47:10,373
The world comes in quite fast.
1970
01:47:10,485 --> 01:47:13,977
Now, that again may be because we're
afraid to stay in that place of forgetting...
1971
01:47:14,089 --> 01:47:16,114
because that, again, is close to death.
1972
01:47:16,224 --> 01:47:18,590
Like people
who are afraid to go to sleep.
1973
01:47:18,693 --> 01:47:22,561
In other words, you interrelate, and you
don't know what the next moment will bring.
1974
01:47:22,664 --> 01:47:24,655
And to not know
what the next moment will bring...
1975
01:47:24,766 --> 01:47:26,791
brings you closer
to a perception of death.
1976
01:47:26,901 --> 01:47:30,564
You see, that's why I think
that people have affairs.
1977
01:47:30,672 --> 01:47:33,072
I mean, you know, in the theater,
if you get good reviews...
1978
01:47:33,174 --> 01:47:35,574
you feel for a moment
that you've got your hands on something.
1979
01:47:35,677 --> 01:47:37,872
You know what I mean?
I mean, it's a good feeling.
1980
01:47:37,979 --> 01:47:40,277
But then that feeling goes quite quickly.
1981
01:47:40,381 --> 01:47:43,680
And once again you don't know
quite what you should do next.
1982
01:47:43,785 --> 01:47:45,412
What'll happen?
1983
01:47:45,520 --> 01:47:48,045
Well, have an affair,
and up to a certain point...
1984
01:47:48,156 --> 01:47:50,818
you can really feel
that you're on firm ground, you know.
1985
01:47:50,925 --> 01:47:54,486
There's a sexual conquest to be made.
There are different questions.
1986
01:47:54,596 --> 01:47:56,564
Does she enjoy the ears being nibbled?
1987
01:47:56,664 --> 01:48:00,122
How intensely can you talk about Schopenhauer
at some elegant French restaurant?
1988
01:48:00,235 --> 01:48:02,601
Whatever nonsense it is.
1989
01:48:02,704 --> 01:48:06,697
It's all, I think, to give you the semblance
that there's firm earth.
1990
01:48:06,808 --> 01:48:10,744
Well, have a real relationship
with a person that goes on for years -
1991
01:48:10,845 --> 01:48:13,473
That's completely unpredictable.
1992
01:48:13,581 --> 01:48:16,812
Then you've cut off all your ties to the land,
and you're sailing into the unknown...
1993
01:48:16,918 --> 01:48:19,352
into uncharted seas.
1994
01:48:19,454 --> 01:48:24,153
I mean, you know, people hold on to these
images of father, mother, husband, wife...
1995
01:48:24,259 --> 01:48:26,159
again for the same reason -
1996
01:48:26,261 --> 01:48:29,753
'cause they seem to provide
some firm ground.
1997
01:48:29,864 --> 01:48:32,162
But there's no wife there.
1998
01:48:32,267 --> 01:48:34,292
What does that mean?
A wife.
1999
01:48:34,402 --> 01:48:37,098
A husband. A son.
2000
01:48:37,205 --> 01:48:39,173
A baby holds your hands...
2001
01:48:39,274 --> 01:48:42,903
and then suddenly there's this huge man
lifting you off the ground...
2002
01:48:43,011 --> 01:48:44,911
and then he's gone.
2003
01:48:45,013 --> 01:48:46,913
Where's that son?
2004
01:49:06,100 --> 01:49:10,127
[ Wally Narrating ] All the other customersseemed to have left hours ago.
2005
01:49:10,238 --> 01:49:14,436
We got the bill,and André paid for our dinner.
2006
01:49:14,542 --> 01:49:16,009
Really?
2007
01:49:18,346 --> 01:49:21,440
[ Conversing, Indistinct ]
2008
01:49:42,303 --> 01:49:44,498
[ Wally Narrating ]I treated myself to a taxi.
2009
01:49:46,007 --> 01:49:48,475
I rode home through the city streets.
2010
01:49:49,744 --> 01:49:52,372
There wasn't a street,there wasn't a building...
2011
01:49:52,480 --> 01:49:55,745
that wasn't connectedto some memory in my mind.
2012
01:49:57,185 --> 01:50:00,279
There, I was buying a suitwith my father.
2013
01:50:02,957 --> 01:50:06,415
There, I was havingan ice cream soda after school.
2014
01:50:10,531 --> 01:50:13,932
When I finally came in,Debby was home from work...
2015
01:50:14,035 --> 01:50:17,493
and I told her everythingabout my dinner with André.
182787
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