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- Tell me when it first
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begins to blur.
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- Blurring.
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Sharp again-ish.
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- One.
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Two.
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- They're both blurry.
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Still blurry. - One.
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Two.
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- Blurry.
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- Seven, here's eight.
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- Uh, better. - What's larger and clearer?
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Seven?
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- Yeah.
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- Here's eight. - Eight.
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- Is this clear?
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- It's sharp.
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Sharpish.
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Sharper.
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Sharpest.
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- Cause my eyes were brown as a child.
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And then they turned, progressively green and blue.
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- Interesting.
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Now that's not very common.
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- Well--
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- What, do you have
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green and blue siblings?
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- No, they're all brown.
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I want you smiling.
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Smile.
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That's good.
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The hand is gonna be...
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You're the hero or the heroine
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because, she can see now, thanks to art.
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You're going to basically be pointing,
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well actually, you're going to be
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displayed this way this.
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That's looking good.
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That's going...
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Open the smile.
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Open the smile.
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Open the smile.
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Good!
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I need you to look at Julia.
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That's good, that's good, that's good.
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That's good.
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Let's go.
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Oh, no.
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I want a smile, I don't want a...
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Diff.
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- I put out about 12, 13 colors.
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And I'm used to that system of mixing.
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Velázquez only put out five colors
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and I have to put out 12.
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It shows the disparity.
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- My mother, when she was excited
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or something happened, she would,
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you know, see one of us and rather than
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make a mistake, she would say, Joey, Jerry,
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come here.
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- Are you Joey or Jerry?
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Are you Joey or Jerry, Jerry, Joey?
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And that kind of pissed us off.
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So in a way we were like little...
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Like little sideshow people.
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Like, oh, which one are you?
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- I think we all wanna know...
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Have kind of a touchstone into a beginning.
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- Why we twins?
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Why we're identical twins?
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Why are we together?
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In terms of, I don't know what it is to be
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a singleton.
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Be a person without a lookalike person.
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We did everything together.
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We slept together.
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And I think we sort of woke up together
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and go to the bathroom together.
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And everything was together.
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- We're called twins, but from the point of view
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of my memory and the whole remembrance
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of that whole thing, we were separate entities.
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We just happened to be sharing a kind of a...
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A place, you know, an apartment.
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For nine months.
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I was in the womb and there was
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another entity besides myself, my brother.
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And I was looking out of the glaucomic film
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and I saw another glaucomic womb
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and another entity there.
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Which I knew I was a girl.
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And I was talking to the...
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Communicating somehow to the girl
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and both our hands were on the surface, that skin.
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And then, suddenly,
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she and that whole womb
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went away into the darkness and I knew
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that I had experienced the end
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of that person's life somehow.
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So in a sense, I experienced death before I knew life.
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- My mother didn't know she was having twins.
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And it was a surprise to all of us.
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I felt, gee, I have two brothers, you know?
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And, I must tell you that they were very ill
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for the first three months of their lives.
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- I had swallowed and I shouldn't have swallowed.
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And I was in the ICU for three days.
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And I guess I was taken from the ICU
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back to my mother.
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She was breastfeeding Joel all the time.
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And then at one point she said to the nurse,
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"But it looks like the same baby."
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And the nurse said, "you do have identical twins."
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- Now this is adorable.
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This is Joey at two years of age.
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And this is where we usually took pictures.
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And Joey looks very intent.
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Like he's looking up at a plane
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or a bird or maybe...
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Or a building.
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And here's the same with Jerry.
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- In a sense, I guess when you're a twin
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which I think is about one in every 10,000 births,
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you know that there was something unusual, you know?
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That there's a mirror image of yourself somehow.
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But you're more aware that you have a different
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consciousness than that otherness
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that looks like you.
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- And I think people maybe saw us as more
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identical than we, inside, felt.
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We knew we were not exactly the same.
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We were individuals.
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When I look at those pictures, in a physical sense,
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I always had a wider face.
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A little broader body.
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Joel was more lean and thin.
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His ears were a different shape than my ears.
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My ears being closer to the head.
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Our smiles were different in the photographs.
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But we were conjoined in a societal way.
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We were "the twins".
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- Dressing twins identically was the style
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at the time.
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There are many photograph snapshots
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of Joey and Jerry in the same exact outfit.
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Sailor suits.
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And sailor hats.
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- I enjoyed it.
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And I couldn't even say when,
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probably when went to school, after kindergarten,
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that we dressed differently.
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- I don't know.
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When they went to Catholic school, they wore
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a white shirt and tie everyday.
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So of course they were identical
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with everybody else in the class, but...
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Then, that petered out, when they were teenagers.
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- Now this business is what I saw
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as a child.
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- Why?
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- Well you have people making sandwiches.
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When you have grocery people talking--
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- What, you lived around here?
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- 460 Graham Avenue, right over here.
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- 460? - Yeah.
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- Right over there.
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- My mother owned the big store.
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Sam's, there was a candy store.
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- Right.
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- There was two other stores.
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- What, on the corner?
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- Yeah, on the corner.
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And uh--
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- I mean, I wasn't here.
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- I know, this was in--
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- I came here in '74.
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- This was in the '30s, '40s.
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- Oh, wow. - And the '50s.
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And I left here when I was nine-years old
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or something like that.
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Queens. - Uh-huh.
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- But this was, the first neighborhood I had.
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A dark memory is...
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And that became the pictured Division Street.
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My mother launching plates at my father
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who's leaving with his bags through a door.
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My mother closing the door.
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And, you know, sweeping up.
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And our life changed.
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I think that was a real traumatic moment.
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I don't remember anybody in the room
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except I was in a chair.
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I don't think it was a high chair anymore.
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I was in a chair looking at my mother...
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Going red in anger, blowing up at my father.
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And she was near this cupboard of plates.
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And as soon as he appeared with suitcases
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and opened the door, she would launch
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the plates and launch, and scream and scream.
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And that door had the number five
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at the other side of it.
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And I think, suddenly, with three children
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and two parents, the number five became the number four.
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- Division Street was actually the name
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of where my mother worked as a bookkeeper.
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And why Jerry called it Division Street,
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I don't know because it certainly wasn't
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our residence.
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It was where she worked.
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But perhaps that is a meaning of division that,
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the husband and the wife would divide.
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I don't know.
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- There was no men.
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My grandmother lived with us.
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And my grandmother was an invalid.
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She had broken her leg years and years and years
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before and unfortunately she never trusted,
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she and her husband, my grandfather, never trusted
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doctors and so, in time, the leg became gangrenous.
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- I think he's wrong there.
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I don't think, if it were gangrenous, she would've
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been in the hospital.
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- And I remember, in the morning I would wake up.
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Kinda ready for school and I would smell two things.
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My mother's making coffee.
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I love coffee.
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And then I would smell the kind of seepage,
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the whatever's coming out of my grandmother's leg.
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- Grandma always put on the coffee at about
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4:30 in the afternoon.
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And they had the old fashioned percolators.
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And they would say in their Brooklyn accent,
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is the water burling yet?
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Is the water burling yet?
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And that wonderful aroma of freshly perked,
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percolated coffee would fill the air.
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- She would like wet our hair with a hand
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doing like this.
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And she would take her hand and make a spit curl
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on our forehead.
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Which made us look like something of a
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Tweedledum and Tweedledee in some kind
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of horror show.
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Was a little spit curl there but we had to keep it
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to show her then we fixed it off.
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- And this is a picture of my dead grandma,
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Maria Antonia Valentina Conforte Pelligrino.
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Joey took this picture.
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- She was always quietly sitting in a chair.
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And sometimes she had the radio on.
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On Saturday she had the Italian station, opera.
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And my mother would come in and very bossy,
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and very kinda rough, would say,
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"oh, that's terrible music.
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"it sounds like they're selling fish."
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And my grandmother would just let it go
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and just keep listening to the opera.
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But my mother would want to hear
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certain records.
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There's a record of a guy called Carmen Cavallaro.
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And he would play this sort of wildly crazy,
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difficult stuff on the piano and she would be gaga
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about that.
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She would say, "listen to that, it's wonderful."
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She would run to a movie she would like.
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Spend the whole day there.
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You have to go and fetch her and find her.
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Seeing a third time, a movie.
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- Her goal was to be the piano player
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in a movie theater.
273
00:15:20,294 --> 00:15:22,963
And then, just like out of the blue,
274
00:15:22,963 --> 00:15:24,465
the talkies came in.
275
00:15:24,465 --> 00:15:26,550
So there was no more need for
276
00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:28,260
a piano player in the theater.
277
00:15:30,095 --> 00:15:31,972
- So there were times where an argument
278
00:15:31,972 --> 00:15:35,309
would start, and it would build up
279
00:15:35,309 --> 00:15:38,646
and I thought, my mother would say things like,
280
00:15:38,646 --> 00:15:40,606
"this food tastes like poison."
281
00:15:41,982 --> 00:15:43,984
And my grandmother would say, like,
282
00:15:43,984 --> 00:15:47,696
she would say, "take me now, let me die."
283
00:15:47,696 --> 00:15:49,281
And everybody would sulk.
284
00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,575
I remember Sara going into a room
285
00:15:51,575 --> 00:15:55,371
and like steam would come from under
286
00:15:55,371 --> 00:15:57,831
the door of her sulking.
287
00:15:59,333 --> 00:16:02,628
- She was pretty and bright...
288
00:16:04,129 --> 00:16:06,131
She was always good at school.
289
00:16:06,131 --> 00:16:08,175
She was reading all the time.
290
00:16:08,175 --> 00:16:11,804
- I felt as if, you know, they just had more talent
291
00:16:11,804 --> 00:16:12,638
than I had.
292
00:16:13,597 --> 00:16:15,599
And so I tried to make up for it by,
293
00:16:15,599 --> 00:16:18,102
by my reading and by my writing.
294
00:16:18,102 --> 00:16:20,938
- She was so good at reading and writing
295
00:16:20,938 --> 00:16:23,315
about what she read.
296
00:16:23,315 --> 00:16:26,443
And we heard her go on these radio shows.
297
00:16:26,443 --> 00:16:29,071
- And I once wrote a letter into a children's program,
298
00:16:29,071 --> 00:16:30,406
I was a little older.
299
00:16:30,406 --> 00:16:32,825
And I won a bike but my mother gave it
300
00:16:32,825 --> 00:16:34,118
to my brother.
301
00:16:37,287 --> 00:16:39,999
- We all spent time with my grandmother
302
00:16:39,999 --> 00:16:42,459
while Mary, my mother worked.
303
00:16:42,459 --> 00:16:44,628
But once I was getting ready to go to school,
304
00:16:44,628 --> 00:16:48,799
at Saint Cecilia's, and it started to rain.
305
00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:51,218
And I said to my grandmother, I said,
306
00:16:51,218 --> 00:16:53,178
"it's raining, I don't wanna go."
307
00:16:53,178 --> 00:16:56,890
And she said, "run between the drops."
308
00:16:56,890 --> 00:17:00,436
And that was when I really, I believed her.
309
00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:04,147
And this was how I knew I was somehow an artist.
310
00:17:05,232 --> 00:17:08,359
To me it's suddenly very poetic, because my grandmother
311
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,030
couldn't run, couldn't walk very well.
312
00:17:11,030 --> 00:17:13,198
It was very beautiful because she knew
313
00:17:13,198 --> 00:17:15,242
we were active in a way she couldn't be.
314
00:17:17,286 --> 00:17:19,371
- That's so her.
315
00:17:19,371 --> 00:17:21,330
Run between the drops.
316
00:17:21,330 --> 00:17:23,083
That's her philosophy.
317
00:17:23,083 --> 00:17:25,002
Life is difficult, but try to run
318
00:17:25,002 --> 00:17:26,962
between the drops.
319
00:17:26,962 --> 00:17:29,673
If it weren't for grandma, I don't know
320
00:17:29,673 --> 00:17:30,632
how bad it would've been.
321
00:17:30,632 --> 00:17:32,885
Because there were lonely times, too.
322
00:17:48,692 --> 00:17:51,445
- Only a few blocks down the street
323
00:17:51,445 --> 00:17:53,781
was the 87th Street Precinct.
324
00:17:53,781 --> 00:17:56,325
I would see the squad cars, the police cars
325
00:17:56,325 --> 00:17:57,159
pull up.
326
00:17:57,159 --> 00:17:59,369
I would see people coming in and out, you know?
327
00:17:59,369 --> 00:18:02,164
Sometimes the police would drag somebody
328
00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:03,415
up the stairs.
329
00:18:03,415 --> 00:18:05,834
And it was a place, very, very exciting.
330
00:18:05,834 --> 00:18:07,878
It was a place of good and evil.
331
00:18:07,878 --> 00:18:11,965
- The police had an annual Christmas party
332
00:18:11,965 --> 00:18:12,841
for the children.
333
00:18:12,841 --> 00:18:15,427
We had a, to go to a local movie
334
00:18:15,427 --> 00:18:17,096
and they'd give out presents.
335
00:18:17,096 --> 00:18:20,057
Joey and I waited, for a long time
336
00:18:20,057 --> 00:18:24,686
to get a toy called, The Dick Tracy Sub Machine Gun.
337
00:18:24,686 --> 00:18:29,149
Dick Tracy with a comic strip with a sub machine gun.
338
00:18:29,149 --> 00:18:32,236
Yeah, I couldn't wait to get it.
339
00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:34,238
- You can get Mattel's fabulous new
340
00:18:34,238 --> 00:18:37,241
Dick Tracy snub-nosed 38 pistol and special
341
00:18:37,241 --> 00:18:41,203
belt holster or the exciting Tommy burst machine gun
342
00:18:41,203 --> 00:18:42,538
for $3 each.
343
00:18:42,538 --> 00:18:44,957
They're the only official Dick Tracy guns.
344
00:18:44,957 --> 00:18:46,875
- We were sleeping together.
345
00:18:46,875 --> 00:18:51,421
He gets up like, pfft, who knows, 6:00 in the morning.
346
00:18:51,421 --> 00:18:55,050
For some reason, takes both of the freaking boxes
347
00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:58,262
of the machine guns, goes out and he looks
348
00:18:58,262 --> 00:19:00,305
for a different person to play with
349
00:19:00,305 --> 00:19:02,307
at 1:00 in the afternoon.
350
00:19:02,307 --> 00:19:04,059
We don't know where the hell he is.
351
00:19:05,060 --> 00:19:08,272
He's coming up the steps slow, like he just
352
00:19:08,272 --> 00:19:10,566
lost an arm or something.
353
00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:13,402
I mean, he was totally demolished.
354
00:19:13,402 --> 00:19:15,863
And we all said, "what happened?"
355
00:19:15,863 --> 00:19:18,157
Well the boys up the street took both guns.
356
00:19:19,032 --> 00:19:21,493
At some point, you know, I thought,
357
00:19:21,493 --> 00:19:24,163
I never even got to touch these things, you know?
358
00:19:24,163 --> 00:19:25,664
What was he doing?
359
00:19:35,465 --> 00:19:38,051
- When Jerry was a little older
360
00:19:38,051 --> 00:19:41,680
he began to draw like an old master.
361
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,641
He had chalk, black wood chalk.
362
00:19:44,641 --> 00:19:48,687
And he did a very large picture of the comic book
363
00:19:48,687 --> 00:19:50,189
character, Joe Palooka.
364
00:19:51,231 --> 00:19:53,233
And all the kids were going around,
365
00:19:53,233 --> 00:19:54,067
cause it was perfect, you know.
366
00:19:54,067 --> 00:19:55,527
It was just perfect.
367
00:19:55,527 --> 00:19:56,486
And all the kids were saying,
368
00:19:56,486 --> 00:19:58,197
"hey, look at this guy, he's a genius.
369
00:19:58,197 --> 00:20:00,365
"Look at this guy, he's a genius."
370
00:20:00,365 --> 00:20:02,534
And my mother never forgot that.
371
00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:04,786
And when she went to one of the museum's
372
00:20:04,786 --> 00:20:08,665
where his work was exhibited when he was an adult,
373
00:20:08,665 --> 00:20:10,876
she wrote a poem about it and said,
374
00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:14,296
"I remember those kids saying what a genius, to Jerry,
375
00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,673
"drawing Joe Palooka in the street.
376
00:20:16,673 --> 00:20:19,801
"And now his work is in the museum.
377
00:20:19,801 --> 00:20:21,428
"In Manhattan."
378
00:20:32,898 --> 00:20:35,317
- I remember vaguely this woman sitting at
379
00:20:35,317 --> 00:20:38,111
this little French easel and a canvas,
380
00:20:38,111 --> 00:20:41,031
a little palette or something, and she got to draw,
381
00:20:41,031 --> 00:20:42,366
and I was just watching her.
382
00:20:42,366 --> 00:20:44,034
Just watching her.
383
00:20:44,034 --> 00:20:45,369
I think maybe I was about seven-ish.
384
00:20:45,369 --> 00:20:49,456
And what she was doing felt, like I'd be doing that
385
00:20:49,456 --> 00:20:50,666
or something like that.
386
00:20:50,666 --> 00:20:52,292
I felt a connection.
387
00:20:52,292 --> 00:20:56,255
She had been painting two rustin' cars
388
00:20:56,255 --> 00:20:58,966
in a lot between the buildings.
389
00:20:58,966 --> 00:21:01,718
And I thought, that's what art is?
390
00:21:01,718 --> 00:21:02,761
You know, things rotting.
391
00:21:02,761 --> 00:21:05,806
And very unpretty and all that.
392
00:21:05,806 --> 00:21:07,891
It was an interesting moment.
393
00:21:07,891 --> 00:21:09,184
And then later I said to my mother,
394
00:21:09,184 --> 00:21:11,395
"I also wanna paint.
395
00:21:11,395 --> 00:21:13,522
"How do I start painting?"
396
00:21:18,485 --> 00:21:21,071
I think Joey early on, but later than me
397
00:21:21,071 --> 00:21:25,242
when I began painting and stuff, found the camera.
398
00:21:25,242 --> 00:21:28,704
If he couldn't draw, he could take photographs.
399
00:21:28,704 --> 00:21:30,622
He could see things through a lens.
400
00:21:34,376 --> 00:21:36,795
- I don't know how it really was for him internally,
401
00:21:36,795 --> 00:21:41,341
but I think that it must've been very difficult.
402
00:21:41,341 --> 00:21:43,260
Because once, when we had Thanksgiving,
403
00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:47,514
I wrote a poem about it and I called it, The Other,
404
00:21:47,514 --> 00:21:49,266
and it was about Joey.
405
00:21:49,266 --> 00:21:52,352
Cause Jerry's getting all this attention, you know?
406
00:21:52,352 --> 00:21:54,896
And Joey was this nice-looking, blonde-haired boy
407
00:21:54,896 --> 00:21:58,025
that played baseball and went to school.
408
00:21:58,025 --> 00:22:00,777
And I'm sure that there were things in our past
409
00:22:00,777 --> 00:22:03,572
that influenced his work greatly.
410
00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:06,408
But I had no idea he was so deep.
411
00:22:06,408 --> 00:22:07,242
Really I didn't.
412
00:22:07,242 --> 00:22:09,494
Cause all of our focus was on Jerry.
413
00:22:10,871 --> 00:22:14,499
- This, in my mind, not in his, I'm not sure
414
00:22:14,499 --> 00:22:16,918
how he sees all that.
415
00:22:16,918 --> 00:22:19,338
In my mind this was maybe the beginning of
416
00:22:19,338 --> 00:22:24,343
our separation because of what we liked to do.
417
00:22:25,093 --> 00:22:28,221
The pause between, say where I was,
418
00:22:28,221 --> 00:22:30,974
where he began to find himself was enough
419
00:22:30,974 --> 00:22:33,143
to make a difference between us.
420
00:22:33,143 --> 00:22:37,230
- When Jerry was about to graduate from 8th grade,
421
00:22:37,230 --> 00:22:40,400
Saint Cecilia's, he was accepted to the high school
422
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:41,401
of music and art.
423
00:22:42,277 --> 00:22:45,447
And that's where the divisions began.
424
00:22:45,447 --> 00:22:48,325
- My father would visit because he could
425
00:22:48,325 --> 00:22:49,951
do that, you know?
426
00:22:49,951 --> 00:22:52,204
Even though they were divorced.
427
00:22:52,204 --> 00:22:55,999
And once, he came over and for some reason
428
00:22:55,999 --> 00:22:59,753
he put me on his lap and he showed me the newspapers,
429
00:22:59,753 --> 00:23:01,505
the daily news.
430
00:23:01,505 --> 00:23:03,965
And he was showing me pictures of the battlefields,
431
00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:07,094
cities crumbling, people dying, you know, falling down.
432
00:23:07,094 --> 00:23:09,721
I was fascinated when he left.
433
00:23:09,721 --> 00:23:13,225
And I waw alone and I was thinking about it.
434
00:23:13,225 --> 00:23:15,602
I walked over to the window and the windows
435
00:23:15,602 --> 00:23:19,064
of the apartment were these round windows.
436
00:23:19,064 --> 00:23:22,234
And so I can see down on the street
437
00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:25,195
and I thought, when I looked out that window,
438
00:23:25,195 --> 00:23:29,032
that, as far as I can see, into infinity,
439
00:23:29,032 --> 00:23:30,700
the world was there.
440
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:32,994
My world was there, Green Pointpoint.
441
00:23:32,994 --> 00:23:35,831
But beyond that was the world at war.
442
00:23:37,124 --> 00:23:39,668
And that was my first indication
443
00:23:39,668 --> 00:23:41,002
of what I wanted to do with life.
444
00:23:41,002 --> 00:23:45,298
I wanted to enter that far looking world
445
00:23:45,298 --> 00:23:46,925
and take pictures there.
446
00:24:16,997 --> 00:24:19,833
- Later on, when we could take our own time,
447
00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:22,878
to go out of the house, take the subways,
448
00:24:22,878 --> 00:24:26,298
the buses, he and I went to Coney island,
449
00:24:26,298 --> 00:24:28,216
on a Saturday morning.
450
00:24:28,216 --> 00:24:33,221
- By that time, Jerry was actually an accomplished painter
451
00:24:33,263 --> 00:24:37,017
and he was making this big, big painting called Genesis.
452
00:24:37,017 --> 00:24:41,188
And he asked me to go to Coney Island
453
00:24:41,188 --> 00:24:43,940
to photograph The Freak Show.
454
00:24:43,940 --> 00:24:46,526
- Freaks from the four corners of the world.
455
00:24:46,526 --> 00:24:48,195
For two nickels, one dime,
456
00:24:48,195 --> 00:24:50,280
a tenth part of a dollar.
457
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,867
We've got the show if you've got the dime.
458
00:24:53,867 --> 00:24:55,494
It's just starting.
459
00:24:55,494 --> 00:24:56,703
So hurry, hurry.
460
00:24:56,703 --> 00:24:58,330
Look 'em over.
461
00:24:58,330 --> 00:24:59,748
The lady without a head.
462
00:24:59,748 --> 00:25:01,208
There are thin ones.
463
00:25:01,208 --> 00:25:02,667
There are fat ones.
464
00:25:02,667 --> 00:25:04,419
There all inside.
465
00:25:04,419 --> 00:25:08,048
- There was copying from a slide Joey took.
466
00:25:08,048 --> 00:25:11,051
A little slide in making the painting.
467
00:25:11,051 --> 00:25:15,180
I think we both were taken by the idea of
468
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,392
you know, presentation of people who don't
469
00:25:19,392 --> 00:25:20,227
look normal.
470
00:25:21,645 --> 00:25:25,273
- I had the little Kodak Pony camera, 35 millimeter,
471
00:25:25,273 --> 00:25:28,568
just color, and I fell in love with this woman
472
00:25:28,568 --> 00:25:31,947
who I photographed who was the Star of David dancer.
473
00:25:31,947 --> 00:25:36,701
I got color results later on, and I loved it.
474
00:25:36,701 --> 00:25:38,995
And I went back and photographed Albert-Alberta
475
00:25:38,995 --> 00:25:41,414
who was also photographed around the same period
476
00:25:41,414 --> 00:25:43,667
of time by Diane Arbus.
477
00:25:51,132 --> 00:25:52,634
It was a wonderful experience.
478
00:25:52,634 --> 00:25:54,886
And by that time, the photographs I made
479
00:25:54,886 --> 00:25:58,890
of the Star of David dancer and Albert-Alberta
480
00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:01,893
weren't a kid's photographs of an event.
481
00:26:01,893 --> 00:26:05,230
They were something that...
482
00:26:07,232 --> 00:26:08,525
I had built into me.
483
00:26:08,525 --> 00:26:11,903
I really found my medium.
484
00:26:11,903 --> 00:26:13,697
And the medium was photography.
485
00:26:26,209 --> 00:26:28,295
I went in the army when I was 21.
486
00:26:28,295 --> 00:26:29,796
I was gonna be drafted.
487
00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:31,965
So I said, instead of being drafted, I joined.
488
00:26:31,965 --> 00:26:33,508
I enlisted as a photographer.
489
00:26:33,508 --> 00:26:35,885
I was attached to intelligence.
490
00:26:35,885 --> 00:26:38,138
I had top secret clearance.
491
00:26:38,138 --> 00:26:39,931
I remember my mother went crazy
492
00:26:39,931 --> 00:26:42,434
when the FBI came over to Graham Avenue
493
00:26:42,434 --> 00:26:43,893
to interview her.
494
00:26:46,062 --> 00:26:50,025
The first jobs I had was, we sent up drones.
495
00:26:50,025 --> 00:26:51,776
Very primitive drones.
496
00:26:51,776 --> 00:26:55,363
And then those drones would have cameras on them.
497
00:26:55,363 --> 00:26:57,157
They would photograph infrared film.
498
00:27:06,374 --> 00:27:10,086
We had to go out there and get the drone
499
00:27:10,086 --> 00:27:12,714
and bring it back to the mobile lab
500
00:27:12,714 --> 00:27:15,133
which was on a deuce and a half ton truck,
501
00:27:15,133 --> 00:27:18,053
a 2 1/2 ton truck, which is a mobile photo lab.
502
00:27:18,053 --> 00:27:20,096
And we had to basically process the film
503
00:27:20,096 --> 00:27:21,598
and get it over to intelligence.
504
00:27:21,598 --> 00:27:23,808
That's why I needed top secret clearance.
505
00:27:27,395 --> 00:27:29,147
- He wanted to join the army, number one,
506
00:27:29,147 --> 00:27:31,358
I think, because it offered him
507
00:27:31,358 --> 00:27:34,277
a chance to learn how to make more types
508
00:27:34,277 --> 00:27:35,111
of photography.
509
00:27:35,111 --> 00:27:37,822
Because when he came back from Fort Dix,
510
00:27:37,822 --> 00:27:39,783
he was bald, he was in uniform.
511
00:27:39,783 --> 00:27:41,660
He was, with a watch on.
512
00:27:41,660 --> 00:27:43,828
He was very happy to be in the army.
513
00:27:43,828 --> 00:27:45,413
He had adventures going on.
514
00:27:48,667 --> 00:27:51,086
I was at school and I was 21.
515
00:27:51,086 --> 00:27:54,673
In the Hauptschule for the Billiken Kunst in Berlin,
516
00:27:54,673 --> 00:27:55,965
now West Berlin.
517
00:27:55,965 --> 00:28:00,679
We could take a train from the West, take 15, 30 minutes,
518
00:28:00,679 --> 00:28:03,181
you can go any place in the East, come back.
519
00:28:03,181 --> 00:28:06,101
The West people are good, the East people suddenly,
520
00:28:06,101 --> 00:28:09,270
like that period of time, they were not allowed
521
00:28:09,270 --> 00:28:10,522
to leave the East.
522
00:28:12,399 --> 00:28:16,027
I was finished with my course in school.
523
00:28:16,027 --> 00:28:19,197
I packed up my stuff but I said, one more time,
524
00:28:19,197 --> 00:28:20,657
I'll go into the East.
525
00:28:20,657 --> 00:28:23,702
There's one wonderful store that sole
526
00:28:23,702 --> 00:28:26,955
these Leipzig reductions of paintings which
527
00:28:26,955 --> 00:28:28,790
you couldn't get anyplace else.
528
00:28:28,790 --> 00:28:30,917
So I bought them, they're on the train,
529
00:28:30,917 --> 00:28:33,628
and at that point, only West people are leaving.
530
00:28:33,628 --> 00:28:36,131
Because you can't leave as an Eastern.
531
00:28:36,131 --> 00:28:38,591
If you tried to escape you'd be killed, same say.
532
00:28:40,093 --> 00:28:42,554
The train was starting to roll.
533
00:28:42,554 --> 00:28:44,264
And it stops.
534
00:28:44,264 --> 00:28:46,725
And I think, it's still an alley.
535
00:28:46,725 --> 00:28:49,602
And this girl gets on, a sweaty white blouse.
536
00:28:49,602 --> 00:28:50,562
Very nervous.
537
00:28:50,562 --> 00:28:51,896
Black skirt.
538
00:28:51,896 --> 00:28:54,023
She has a cello case.
539
00:28:54,023 --> 00:28:55,233
And she gets on.
540
00:28:55,233 --> 00:28:58,111
The way she's walking, we know she's escaped.
541
00:28:58,111 --> 00:28:59,863
Which is bad because if she's caught,
542
00:28:59,863 --> 00:29:01,698
she's dead the same day.
543
00:29:01,698 --> 00:29:04,909
And we're all counting, this fix stops
544
00:29:04,909 --> 00:29:06,202
to the West.
545
00:29:06,202 --> 00:29:08,496
We all know that there's a lot of people
546
00:29:08,496 --> 00:29:09,998
will make money from the government
547
00:29:09,998 --> 00:29:12,834
if they snitch on this kid.
548
00:29:12,834 --> 00:29:15,295
And the whole place has suddenly changed into
549
00:29:15,295 --> 00:29:19,424
hoping we make every stop to the West.
550
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:21,593
And no one's looking at her.
551
00:29:21,593 --> 00:29:24,637
She was nervous and people very tense.
552
00:29:24,637 --> 00:29:27,766
And we go into the, almost last stop.
553
00:29:27,766 --> 00:29:30,518
And then the train suddenly moves
554
00:29:30,518 --> 00:29:31,728
and it stops.
555
00:29:31,728 --> 00:29:34,773
The door rips open.
556
00:29:34,773 --> 00:29:38,067
There's a woman in uniform, grabs the kid
557
00:29:38,067 --> 00:29:40,737
and there's a guy with a sub machine gun
558
00:29:40,737 --> 00:29:42,822
and I see the girls mouth open.
559
00:29:44,115 --> 00:29:46,743
And for some reason, I just can't look anymore.
560
00:29:46,743 --> 00:29:48,536
I don't even hear anymore.
561
00:29:48,536 --> 00:29:49,996
I can't even hear her voice.
562
00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:51,915
And I just turn my head around.
563
00:29:51,915 --> 00:29:53,416
And the door shut.
564
00:29:53,416 --> 00:29:56,211
The cello case, there's all this clothing
565
00:29:56,211 --> 00:29:58,129
and the kids gone.
566
00:29:58,129 --> 00:29:59,506
She's either gonna be hung or shot
567
00:29:59,506 --> 00:30:02,217
within the next 10, 12 hours.
568
00:30:04,761 --> 00:30:07,764
We got into the station and I got out
569
00:30:07,764 --> 00:30:09,098
and my life's changed.
570
00:30:10,850 --> 00:30:14,521
Suddenly, art is no longer an exercise
571
00:30:14,521 --> 00:30:16,272
in how good I am.
572
00:30:16,272 --> 00:30:18,274
It's maybe how bad the world is.
573
00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:22,320
It's an exercise in responding to
574
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,322
what could happen.
575
00:30:24,322 --> 00:30:26,449
Which might not be a good thing.
576
00:31:16,207 --> 00:31:20,879
- What drives me is the desire to fulfill
577
00:31:22,005 --> 00:31:23,590
an idea.
578
00:31:23,590 --> 00:31:25,508
An idea with a purpose.
579
00:31:25,508 --> 00:31:28,303
Because I think so much work, art today,
580
00:31:28,303 --> 00:31:29,345
has no purpose.
581
00:31:29,345 --> 00:31:31,931
It's facade.
582
00:31:31,931 --> 00:31:33,766
It has no depth.
583
00:31:33,766 --> 00:31:36,519
My images are about stories.
584
00:31:40,732 --> 00:31:41,733
Come on Kathy Brown.
585
00:31:43,359 --> 00:31:44,193
Come on.
586
00:32:39,999 --> 00:32:42,877
I leave everything up to chance, to fate.
587
00:32:42,877 --> 00:32:46,464
If I read something, it makes me think of something.
588
00:32:46,464 --> 00:32:49,217
I have this idea or I see a person,
589
00:32:49,217 --> 00:32:52,720
it basically stirs something up.
590
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,597
And I'm constantly making those sketches
591
00:32:54,597 --> 00:32:58,101
and drawings and visual associations.
592
00:33:01,562 --> 00:33:05,358
And then I find myself taking more and more time
593
00:33:05,358 --> 00:33:08,528
on one particular subject or having one particular
594
00:33:08,528 --> 00:33:11,197
interest in somebody or something or some
595
00:33:11,197 --> 00:33:15,284
facet of time, then I'll basically do little
596
00:33:15,284 --> 00:33:17,495
sketches of what I wanna do.
597
00:33:17,495 --> 00:33:19,330
What I wanna make as photographs.
598
00:33:19,330 --> 00:33:22,333
- He gives me the biggest challenges.
599
00:33:22,333 --> 00:33:25,503
He uses an aspect of my training that I would
600
00:33:25,503 --> 00:33:27,797
probably let go atrophy.
601
00:33:27,797 --> 00:33:31,884
He gives me pieces to copy.
602
00:33:31,884 --> 00:33:33,928
And their all different.
603
00:33:33,928 --> 00:33:35,722
They could be medieval one day.
604
00:33:35,722 --> 00:33:38,850
Or they could be, like recently it was
605
00:33:38,850 --> 00:33:40,309
the Jackson Pollock.
606
00:33:40,309 --> 00:33:43,062
I've run into a bit of a problem when he takes
607
00:33:43,062 --> 00:33:45,982
a small painting that has a particular type
608
00:33:45,982 --> 00:33:48,151
of brush work and I have to blow it up
609
00:33:48,151 --> 00:33:50,528
really big, like 24 feet.
610
00:33:50,528 --> 00:33:54,073
Then I have a hard time langoring those brushstrokes.
611
00:33:54,073 --> 00:33:56,617
He's quite patient and persistent.
612
00:33:56,617 --> 00:33:59,620
And he often says things like, "well, when's
613
00:33:59,620 --> 00:34:01,330
"it gonna look like the painting?"
614
00:34:02,832 --> 00:34:03,875
I just die cause, ah!
615
00:34:04,917 --> 00:34:08,337
The Hiller image was fun for me because
616
00:34:08,337 --> 00:34:13,134
it is both backdrop and prosthetics.
617
00:34:13,134 --> 00:34:16,304
And it's artists that I love to paint.
618
00:34:17,179 --> 00:34:19,389
More mimic or imitate.
619
00:34:19,389 --> 00:34:21,934
It was an Otto Dix painting so it was like
620
00:34:21,934 --> 00:34:25,438
1930s and 40s, I really like to copy that.
621
00:34:32,570 --> 00:34:34,155
- The tones.
622
00:34:35,489 --> 00:34:38,367
- Having your whole body painted white,
623
00:34:38,367 --> 00:34:40,661
you don't feel naked.
624
00:34:40,661 --> 00:34:43,331
I feel like a figure in a work of art,
625
00:34:43,331 --> 00:34:46,542
rather than, exploited in any kind of way.
626
00:34:46,542 --> 00:34:49,504
I'm an art historian and I research
627
00:34:49,504 --> 00:34:52,757
the representation of disability in art,
628
00:34:52,757 --> 00:34:55,051
and work by disabled artists.
629
00:34:55,051 --> 00:34:57,678
And I was writing a lot about Joel's work,
630
00:34:58,721 --> 00:35:01,557
and I, the short answer is I wanted to put
631
00:35:01,557 --> 00:35:04,393
my body where my mouth was, so to speak.
632
00:35:04,393 --> 00:35:07,396
So I posed for the tableau in New Mexico
633
00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:09,482
in 2007.
634
00:35:09,482 --> 00:35:12,860
It was a portrait, I was shot from behind
635
00:35:12,860 --> 00:35:14,237
that time.
636
00:35:14,237 --> 00:35:15,822
And I enjoyed it.
637
00:35:15,822 --> 00:35:18,449
And we talked about me doing another photograph.
638
00:35:18,449 --> 00:35:21,327
Like he staged my body like a work of art.
639
00:35:22,161 --> 00:35:24,831
He saw its uniqueness as beautiful
640
00:35:24,831 --> 00:35:26,332
and aesthetic.
641
00:35:26,332 --> 00:35:29,710
- Your body is, from last time,
642
00:35:29,710 --> 00:35:32,505
the other shot we did, your body is
643
00:35:32,505 --> 00:35:36,717
very, very wonderful looking, very emotional
644
00:35:36,717 --> 00:35:37,927
and it's right for this.
645
00:35:51,232 --> 00:35:52,066
No, I love it!
646
00:35:52,066 --> 00:35:53,067
I love it, leave it!
647
00:35:55,403 --> 00:35:57,864
- He gets to twist the world,
648
00:35:57,864 --> 00:35:59,198
just a little bit.
649
00:35:59,198 --> 00:36:00,366
Just stick a fork in and twist it.
650
00:36:00,366 --> 00:36:01,868
Like pasta.
651
00:36:01,868 --> 00:36:03,953
- I've been doing this for over 40 years
652
00:36:03,953 --> 00:36:08,791
and as Bob Dylan once said,
653
00:36:09,792 --> 00:36:12,628
"I'm glad the poem hasn't run out."
654
00:36:14,130 --> 00:36:16,132
- 90% of the time he's just a happy guy
655
00:36:16,132 --> 00:36:17,175
who tells jokes.
656
00:36:18,050 --> 00:36:22,763
And enjoys the process of creating
657
00:36:22,763 --> 00:36:24,974
in tandem with somebody else, co-creating
658
00:36:24,974 --> 00:36:26,559
with somebody else.
659
00:36:26,559 --> 00:36:28,394
- A quarter of a second at 16 1/2.
660
00:36:30,062 --> 00:36:31,898
My favorite stuff.
661
00:36:31,898 --> 00:36:35,943
- On some aspects, Joel for me is,
662
00:36:35,943 --> 00:36:40,865
he's kind of this loud, myopic,
663
00:36:40,865 --> 00:36:45,244
genius artist driving folks around him crazy.
664
00:36:45,244 --> 00:36:49,498
And then another time he's my extremely
665
00:36:49,498 --> 00:36:51,792
caring and sweet Jewish grandma who wants to
666
00:36:51,792 --> 00:36:53,628
feed me and overfeed me.
667
00:36:53,628 --> 00:36:55,713
- And stop, that's it, that's it.
668
00:36:55,713 --> 00:36:57,173
That's good, stop him.
669
00:36:57,173 --> 00:36:58,591
Hitler I wanted angry.
670
00:36:58,591 --> 00:37:00,134
Angry.
671
00:37:00,134 --> 00:37:02,011
And just where I want Michael.
672
00:37:02,011 --> 00:37:04,263
Michael, I want this kinda.
673
00:37:04,263 --> 00:37:07,725
- Hand positions are really important.
674
00:37:07,725 --> 00:37:11,020
Whether or not someone's hands look kinda flat
675
00:37:11,020 --> 00:37:14,523
and bulky or do they look kind of delicate?
676
00:37:14,523 --> 00:37:16,567
- I want this kind of gesture.
677
00:37:17,401 --> 00:37:20,029
Like, that's good, that's good.
678
00:37:20,029 --> 00:37:21,489
No, no, I want this, look.
679
00:37:21,489 --> 00:37:22,323
Look at me.
680
00:37:22,323 --> 00:37:23,157
This kind of thing.
681
00:37:23,157 --> 00:37:24,033
It's like it's nothing, that's perfect.
682
00:37:24,033 --> 00:37:26,744
Lower it so I can see it against the black.
683
00:37:26,744 --> 00:37:27,578
That's it, that's it, that's it.
684
00:37:28,663 --> 00:37:29,497
That's it.
685
00:37:29,497 --> 00:37:31,666
Okay, that's, no, no Michael, head up
686
00:37:31,666 --> 00:37:33,751
and look at me a little bit.
687
00:37:34,919 --> 00:37:35,753
That's good.
688
00:37:35,753 --> 00:37:37,713
That's gettin good.
689
00:37:37,713 --> 00:37:39,215
It's getting good.
690
00:37:39,215 --> 00:37:40,424
Smile.
691
00:37:40,424 --> 00:37:41,259
Hitler, smile.
692
00:37:41,259 --> 00:37:42,093
Look at Hitler.
693
00:37:42,093 --> 00:37:43,928
Oh, that's great.
694
00:37:43,928 --> 00:37:45,137
Oh my God!
695
00:37:45,137 --> 00:37:46,264
Oh, oh, oh.
696
00:37:46,264 --> 00:37:47,765
I wanna see your face, Michael.
697
00:37:50,351 --> 00:37:51,394
Good, I like it.
698
00:37:51,394 --> 00:37:53,396
And we'll do the same thing with smiles.
699
00:37:53,396 --> 00:37:54,981
And that's the last shot.
700
00:37:54,981 --> 00:37:57,275
Same thing with smiles.
701
00:38:00,444 --> 00:38:03,030
Okay, smile Michael.
702
00:38:04,115 --> 00:38:05,908
All right, we're done.
703
00:38:05,908 --> 00:38:08,077
- And boom, it is all over.
704
00:38:08,077 --> 00:38:11,789
At which point the entire set gets taken down.
705
00:38:12,665 --> 00:38:16,085
Aspects of the props are handed to the models
706
00:38:16,085 --> 00:38:17,295
as gifts.
707
00:38:17,295 --> 00:38:18,963
And it's all over.
708
00:38:18,963 --> 00:38:23,718
The next we'll have to take a white roller
709
00:38:23,718 --> 00:38:25,845
and go over the entire backdrop.
710
00:39:13,142 --> 00:39:17,104
- I am making a painting that is about Aleppo.
711
00:39:17,104 --> 00:39:20,566
And it came about by my reading of the New York Times
712
00:39:20,566 --> 00:39:25,488
and how one is watching without being able
713
00:39:25,488 --> 00:39:26,697
to help.
714
00:39:26,697 --> 00:39:28,949
The deterioration of, especially the city
715
00:39:28,949 --> 00:39:30,326
of Aleppo.
716
00:39:30,326 --> 00:39:34,747
Children, hospitals, the concentrated effort
717
00:39:34,747 --> 00:39:38,125
to destroy any aid to these people
718
00:39:38,125 --> 00:39:39,168
as they're suffering.
719
00:39:40,044 --> 00:39:42,755
So my feeling, as I read this is,
720
00:39:42,755 --> 00:39:44,965
what is this country doing about it?
721
00:39:44,965 --> 00:39:46,592
What can I do about it?
722
00:39:46,592 --> 00:39:50,262
So I began a picture of a man reading this.
723
00:39:50,262 --> 00:39:51,597
A man getting upset by this.
724
00:39:51,597 --> 00:39:55,059
A man imagining him holding a child
725
00:39:55,059 --> 00:39:56,519
and maybe helping this child
726
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:59,522
from the catastrophe around the child.
727
00:39:59,522 --> 00:40:02,316
And labeled the last painting as the man
728
00:40:02,316 --> 00:40:05,236
knowing that he is only reading about it
729
00:40:05,236 --> 00:40:07,613
and he can't do a damn thing about it.
730
00:40:07,613 --> 00:40:10,408
Maybe I can't stop things like that,
731
00:40:10,408 --> 00:40:12,535
but the paintings and the drawings
732
00:40:12,535 --> 00:40:14,537
and maybe make other people say,
733
00:40:14,537 --> 00:40:16,122
there shouldn't be this.
734
00:40:16,122 --> 00:40:17,623
There shouldn't be this again.
735
00:40:25,548 --> 00:40:27,716
You have to say something like,
736
00:40:27,716 --> 00:40:28,843
I'm a witness.
737
00:40:28,843 --> 00:40:31,220
I'm a witness to this horror
738
00:40:31,220 --> 00:40:32,680
and this shouldn't happen.
739
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,766
This goes back to Goya doing the events
740
00:40:35,766 --> 00:40:38,144
of war in his own time.
741
00:41:36,494 --> 00:41:39,705
I concern myself with the lives
742
00:41:39,705 --> 00:41:41,248
of other people.
743
00:41:44,335 --> 00:41:46,128
And I think there's something about,
744
00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:49,632
you know, the fragility of life.
745
00:41:50,841 --> 00:41:52,635
Fragility of getting through it all.
746
00:41:54,762 --> 00:41:57,932
But I think, we have to concern ourselves
747
00:41:57,932 --> 00:41:59,892
with each other because, that's what
748
00:41:59,892 --> 00:42:00,809
being human is.
749
00:43:10,754 --> 00:43:14,592
- I was too involved with being in life,
750
00:43:14,592 --> 00:43:18,095
the wonder of life, the discovery of everyday.
751
00:43:19,763 --> 00:43:24,560
And I've never felt this kind of need
752
00:43:27,229 --> 00:43:29,565
to be close to my brother.
753
00:43:30,774 --> 00:43:32,776
I respect his life.
754
00:43:32,776 --> 00:43:34,194
I respect what he does.
755
00:43:35,362 --> 00:43:39,783
And I've always, as soon as I could,
756
00:43:42,328 --> 00:43:43,329
I moved away.
757
00:44:18,989 --> 00:44:21,033
- We've been together since the middle 80s
758
00:44:21,033 --> 00:44:23,535
so it's 30 years.
759
00:44:33,128 --> 00:44:35,506
I take care of the business side of the art,
760
00:44:35,506 --> 00:44:38,133
the bookkeeping side and...
761
00:44:39,968 --> 00:44:41,845
Just kind of keeping track of the ins
762
00:44:41,845 --> 00:44:42,846
and the outs.
763
00:44:43,764 --> 00:44:46,100
Jerome's art is a business and, you know,
764
00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:48,143
there's every single receipt for every
765
00:44:48,143 --> 00:44:51,438
tube of paint and every paintbrush and so,
766
00:44:51,438 --> 00:44:53,315
there's a lot of minutiae.
767
00:45:32,521 --> 00:45:36,233
- What Joel told me to do to take care
768
00:45:36,233 --> 00:45:38,444
of this photograph, because it's encaustic,
769
00:45:38,444 --> 00:45:42,531
it's covered in wax, and the wax blooms with time,
770
00:45:42,531 --> 00:45:45,075
so he said you just put your hands on it
771
00:45:45,075 --> 00:45:46,410
and you just rub.
772
00:45:46,410 --> 00:45:48,829
And then first time he showed me how to do it,
773
00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:51,915
he was here, we did it on my kitchen counter.
774
00:45:51,915 --> 00:45:54,710
And I've never seen anyone touch a piece of art
775
00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:55,919
like that before.
776
00:45:55,919 --> 00:45:57,588
Usually it's a hands off thing,
777
00:45:57,588 --> 00:45:59,465
especially with a photograph.
778
00:45:59,465 --> 00:46:01,884
But he said with this, you just rub it.
779
00:46:01,884 --> 00:46:03,510
And the warmth of your hand
780
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:06,221
on the wax takes the bloom away.
781
00:46:06,221 --> 00:46:10,225
So, it's the care and maintenance of this
782
00:46:10,225 --> 00:46:14,313
particular image that I come up and do in the attic.
783
00:46:14,313 --> 00:46:19,318
I probably have 40 photographs of his,
784
00:46:19,610 --> 00:46:24,114
most of them framed, some in boxes still.
785
00:46:24,114 --> 00:46:27,868
I also have artifacts from the images.
786
00:46:27,868 --> 00:46:29,995
So, you know, if I add everything up,
787
00:46:29,995 --> 00:46:34,500
I have quite a few pieces of photography,
788
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:37,419
artifacts, gifts that he's given to me,
789
00:46:38,253 --> 00:46:40,964
letters, magazines.
790
00:46:43,634 --> 00:46:45,219
Reviews, interviews.
791
00:46:58,065 --> 00:47:01,610
The best friend of my mother-in-law,
792
00:47:01,610 --> 00:47:06,615
her son had opened a photo gallery in San Francisco
793
00:47:06,949 --> 00:47:11,036
in the mid 80's, and she asked me to do her
794
00:47:11,036 --> 00:47:13,705
a favor and go visit the gallery just so someone
795
00:47:13,705 --> 00:47:17,167
was going into her friend's gallery.
796
00:47:17,167 --> 00:47:20,754
And so, I kept going in to the gallery,
797
00:47:20,754 --> 00:47:24,800
one day someone said to me in the gallery,
798
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,553
I want to show you these photographs.
799
00:47:27,553 --> 00:47:31,431
And he pulled out of the drawer the images
800
00:47:31,431 --> 00:47:36,395
of Joel's that stopped me dead.
801
00:47:37,563 --> 00:47:39,690
I've never seen anything like that.
802
00:47:39,690 --> 00:47:43,151
And it was disturbing at the same time
803
00:47:43,151 --> 00:47:45,821
as it was intriguing.
804
00:47:45,821 --> 00:47:48,031
And I couldn't get it out of my mind.
805
00:47:48,031 --> 00:47:50,325
And at that time, Robert Mapplethorpe
806
00:47:51,493 --> 00:47:53,245
was huge in America, people, everybody knew
807
00:47:53,245 --> 00:47:55,205
about Robert Mapplethorpe.
808
00:47:55,205 --> 00:47:58,333
And there was a certain beauty to his work,
809
00:47:58,333 --> 00:48:01,169
especially the pieces that were printed on canvas
810
00:48:01,169 --> 00:48:06,174
the male nudes, the calla lilies, but for me,
811
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,970
they didn't have the intellectual bit
812
00:48:09,970 --> 00:48:12,514
that Joel's pieces have.
813
00:48:12,514 --> 00:48:16,268
I kept going back, and the first piece that I bought,
814
00:48:16,268 --> 00:48:19,938
the one of Lisa Lyon like a Greek statue.
815
00:48:19,938 --> 00:48:22,316
It's in my bedroom, it's hanging in my bedroom.
816
00:48:32,367 --> 00:48:36,288
Joel reveled in just that photograph
817
00:48:36,288 --> 00:48:38,165
that's in Vanity Fair
818
00:48:38,165 --> 00:48:41,585
of the family scene, of the son, his wife,
819
00:48:41,585 --> 00:48:43,629
his wife's lover, another woman
820
00:48:43,629 --> 00:48:45,213
in the photograph who's naked
821
00:48:46,131 --> 00:48:48,258
who's a family friend, so you don't know
822
00:48:48,258 --> 00:48:50,385
quite what kind of a relationship they have.
823
00:48:50,385 --> 00:48:55,390
And that was important to Joel, to have that
824
00:48:56,224 --> 00:48:58,393
out there in the public.
825
00:48:59,394 --> 00:49:02,564
Cynthia was always bisexual, and you know,
826
00:49:02,564 --> 00:49:05,067
we had this arranged that she would go out,
827
00:49:05,067 --> 00:49:08,070
and sometimes sleep over with a woman,
828
00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:09,613
and come back, it was pretty open.
829
00:49:09,613 --> 00:49:13,575
So, one night, she did return early in the morning,
830
00:49:13,575 --> 00:49:18,372
it was at 2:00 o'clock maybe, with this woman.
831
00:49:18,372 --> 00:49:20,290
And she said, this is Barbara,
832
00:49:20,290 --> 00:49:22,668
and she's gonna be living with us.
833
00:49:22,668 --> 00:49:25,712
That was the beginning of this kind of triune,
834
00:49:27,130 --> 00:49:29,967
and it really worked until the time
835
00:49:29,967 --> 00:49:32,928
I realized that after 20 years of being
836
00:49:32,928 --> 00:49:37,516
with Cynthia, that a change had happened.
837
00:49:37,516 --> 00:49:39,726
And I got a call from Cynthia saying
838
00:49:39,726 --> 00:49:43,230
that she had found this woman,
839
00:49:43,230 --> 00:49:48,235
and she wanted me to come back
840
00:49:49,069 --> 00:49:52,739
and then we'd live this woman.
841
00:49:52,739 --> 00:49:54,700
And I said, "I don't want that.
842
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:56,326
"Barbara's part of our family."
843
00:49:56,326 --> 00:49:58,829
So, finally what happened is that
844
00:49:58,829 --> 00:50:02,332
she moved out, and I said to Barbara,
845
00:50:02,332 --> 00:50:05,043
"it's gonna be you and me, and we're going
846
00:50:05,043 --> 00:50:07,671
"to be here at the ranch, and we're
847
00:50:07,671 --> 00:50:09,089
"gonna live our lives."
848
00:50:28,567 --> 00:50:31,695
- I'm always worried about this one when she spits.
849
00:50:37,325 --> 00:50:41,496
Uh oh, I hear her regurgitating.
850
00:50:44,708 --> 00:50:46,752
Okay, go eat.
851
00:50:46,752 --> 00:50:48,628
Don't spit at me, thank you.
852
00:50:50,464 --> 00:50:55,343
Since I've been sick, it's everything for me.
853
00:50:55,343 --> 00:50:57,721
And I'm not saying he gives up a trip for me.
854
00:50:57,721 --> 00:51:02,434
But he does put a lot of effort
855
00:51:02,434 --> 00:51:06,354
into making sure that I am comfortable,
856
00:51:06,354 --> 00:51:08,065
have everything I need.
857
00:51:10,692 --> 00:51:14,905
Calls me, writes me, does all the right things,
858
00:51:14,905 --> 00:51:16,239
it seems like.
859
00:51:27,667 --> 00:51:31,046
I didn't start worrying until about,
860
00:51:31,046 --> 00:51:33,048
I don't know if worry is the right word.
861
00:51:39,012 --> 00:51:42,516
Maybe until about a year ago.
862
00:51:44,851 --> 00:51:49,856
I started thinking about, hmm, things
863
00:51:50,816 --> 00:51:52,192
weren't going quite my way.
864
00:51:54,986 --> 00:51:57,280
But look at all the good things that came out.
865
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,407
We got to travel.
866
00:52:02,577 --> 00:52:04,538
I did everything I wanted to do.
867
00:52:19,344 --> 00:52:22,430
- I have collected Joel's work
868
00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:26,852
for somewhere between 25 and 30 years.
869
00:52:26,852 --> 00:52:31,231
And this upcoming show in Mexico City,
870
00:52:31,231 --> 00:52:35,318
I am very excited about seeing
871
00:52:35,318 --> 00:52:36,903
what the show is like.
872
00:52:36,903 --> 00:52:41,116
Because I, of course, am very interested
873
00:52:42,951 --> 00:52:44,536
in Joel's work.
874
00:52:44,536 --> 00:52:46,163
And I know Jerome's work.
875
00:52:46,163 --> 00:52:48,039
I've been to a show in San Francisco
876
00:52:48,039 --> 00:52:49,374
many years ago.
877
00:52:49,374 --> 00:52:52,377
But to see the work together,
878
00:52:52,377 --> 00:52:53,795
it makes such sense.
879
00:52:55,797 --> 00:52:58,633
The fact that they're identical twins,
880
00:52:58,633 --> 00:53:00,552
and that they're both in the arts.
881
00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:03,513
It's quite amazing.
882
00:54:12,374 --> 00:54:16,419
- I think Joel, in time, found his niche
883
00:54:16,419 --> 00:54:17,796
as a photographer.
884
00:54:17,796 --> 00:54:20,799
I think we're both gifted that way.
885
00:54:20,799 --> 00:54:24,302
And it was the right place to be.
886
00:54:24,302 --> 00:54:26,805
But the thing I really honestly
887
00:54:26,805 --> 00:54:28,723
don't understand is, my brother,
888
00:54:29,641 --> 00:54:34,646
even with all his exhibitions in the 80's and 90's
889
00:54:35,563 --> 00:54:39,401
would call me up and constantly not say
890
00:54:39,401 --> 00:54:41,444
how are you, he would just say,
891
00:54:41,444 --> 00:54:44,030
I have this show in Japan, I have this show there.
892
00:54:44,030 --> 00:54:47,951
He wanted to, you know, make clear that he
893
00:54:47,951 --> 00:54:50,829
was doing very well, and perhaps better than I was.
894
00:54:53,248 --> 00:54:55,917
Even in the early periodicals about his work,
895
00:54:55,917 --> 00:54:57,544
I was never mentioned.
896
00:54:57,544 --> 00:54:59,713
His chronology never mentioned
897
00:54:59,713 --> 00:55:00,797
he had a twin brother.
898
00:55:16,229 --> 00:55:17,063
- Oh my God.
899
00:55:18,106 --> 00:55:20,358
Oh, look at that flag, that's a huge flag.
900
00:55:20,358 --> 00:55:21,234
That's beautiful.
901
00:55:30,618 --> 00:55:32,579
- So, you were here nine years ago?
902
00:55:32,579 --> 00:55:33,788
- 94 last time.
903
00:55:33,788 --> 00:55:38,251
- Oh, 94, so 20 years ago.
904
00:55:38,251 --> 00:55:39,085
- Yeah.
905
00:55:40,420 --> 00:55:42,130
First time I was here I was so old,
906
00:55:42,130 --> 00:55:43,548
the conquistadors were here.
907
00:56:08,198 --> 00:56:09,407
These are nice.
908
00:56:15,497 --> 00:56:16,831
Oh, this is a photograph.
909
00:56:16,831 --> 00:56:17,874
- Is it?
910
00:56:17,874 --> 00:56:19,167
- Yeah, it's a tin type.
911
00:56:20,001 --> 00:56:21,711
You can hardly see the little cut.
912
00:56:33,515 --> 00:56:34,641
So nice.
913
00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:37,143
This is nice.
914
00:56:58,415 --> 00:57:01,501
- When we talk the work of artists,
915
00:57:01,501 --> 00:57:04,629
you say like, isn't Rembrandt great?
916
00:57:04,629 --> 00:57:06,464
We don't say, wasn't he great?
917
00:57:06,464 --> 00:57:08,800
We said, isn't he great?
918
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,052
Isn't Giotto incredible?
919
00:57:11,052 --> 00:57:13,680
And that's amazing, because we don't
920
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,432
talk about these people in the past tense.
921
00:57:15,432 --> 00:57:18,726
They're with us, they're with out consciousness.
922
00:57:18,726 --> 00:57:23,064
We share with them their image and their soul.
923
00:57:23,064 --> 00:57:27,402
And I think that's a remarkable thing.
924
00:58:14,949 --> 00:58:18,286
- When I walk through the exhibition in Mexico
925
00:58:18,286 --> 00:58:22,123
of the Witkin & Witkin show, I've never seen
926
00:58:22,123 --> 00:58:25,335
as much work by Jerry as that.
927
00:58:25,335 --> 00:58:30,298
I realized that he has incredible
928
00:58:31,633 --> 00:58:35,345
potency, a great facile for painting.
929
00:58:35,345 --> 00:58:38,097
He's trying to change society as I am.
930
00:58:38,097 --> 00:58:40,517
But it's a different medium.
931
00:58:40,517 --> 00:58:43,937
The only reference that was in the Witkin & Witkin show
932
00:58:43,937 --> 00:58:48,942
that was a surprise to me is the fact that Jerry had made
933
00:58:50,109 --> 00:58:53,238
a painting based on New York theater
934
00:58:53,238 --> 00:58:57,033
in 1939 by Hopper, and I was making one too.
935
00:58:57,033 --> 00:58:59,661
- I've always been attracted to
936
00:58:59,661 --> 00:59:02,914
Edward Hopper's painting called New York Movie,
937
00:59:02,914 --> 00:59:06,209
done in 1939, which is the year both
938
00:59:08,962 --> 00:59:10,797
Joel and I were born.
939
00:59:10,797 --> 00:59:13,299
- I believe I started my work earlier,
940
00:59:13,299 --> 00:59:14,217
it doesn't matter.
941
00:59:15,301 --> 00:59:19,055
- I thought it was unbelievable twin like,
942
00:59:19,055 --> 00:59:23,393
identical twin like to be concerned,
943
00:59:23,393 --> 00:59:26,521
both of us, unknown to each other,
944
00:59:26,521 --> 00:59:28,731
to dealing with the same subject matter.
945
00:59:28,731 --> 00:59:30,775
- In Hopper's painting, they're watching
946
00:59:31,859 --> 00:59:33,778
a movie, a few people in the audience,
947
00:59:33,778 --> 00:59:35,029
and it's kind of abstract.
948
00:59:35,029 --> 00:59:36,239
You don't know what it is.
949
00:59:36,239 --> 00:59:38,741
It's about kind of boredom and isolation.
950
00:59:38,741 --> 00:59:40,451
And Hopper did that beautifully.
951
00:59:40,451 --> 00:59:42,996
In Jerry's painting, the usherette's there,
952
00:59:42,996 --> 00:59:46,332
and there's a scene of the holocaust.
953
00:59:49,961 --> 00:59:54,591
- In 1945 in movies all across the world,
954
00:59:54,591 --> 00:59:59,596
British filmmakers were filming Belsen Bergen,
955
00:59:59,721 --> 01:00:03,349
Concentration Camp, how bodies were
956
01:00:03,349 --> 01:00:06,185
being plowed into ditches.
957
01:00:06,185 --> 01:00:09,522
And this was highly disturbing to see.
958
01:00:09,522 --> 01:00:11,649
Suddenly, in Movie Tone News,
959
01:00:11,649 --> 01:00:16,654
which was on the screens then as active movie
960
01:00:16,654 --> 01:00:19,365
images of what's happening in the world,
961
01:00:20,241 --> 01:00:23,202
and I thought, my God, if I made a picture
962
01:00:23,202 --> 01:00:25,705
of a movie theater in 1945,
963
01:00:25,705 --> 01:00:28,583
everybody would be very different.
964
01:00:28,583 --> 01:00:31,252
The bored woman in the Hopper picture
965
01:00:31,252 --> 01:00:33,630
would be very different from the person
966
01:00:33,630 --> 01:00:35,965
hearing or watching that screen.
967
01:00:37,925 --> 01:00:40,762
- In my work, you just don't see a movie theater,
968
01:00:40,762 --> 01:00:42,639
you engage in history.
969
01:00:42,639 --> 01:00:44,599
They're coming through a layer
970
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:47,185
of the beata of Christ and the Virgin, Mary.
971
01:00:48,144 --> 01:00:51,314
Of Christ and little Jesus at the same time.
972
01:00:51,314 --> 01:00:53,733
And then there's the anti-Christ person,
973
01:00:53,733 --> 01:00:56,194
a person with the 666 in the audience.
974
01:00:56,194 --> 01:01:00,406
And what he's looking at is Metropolis
975
01:01:01,407 --> 01:01:02,533
by Fritz Lang.
976
01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:05,828
And it's about the good and bad Maria.
977
01:01:16,673 --> 01:01:19,467
- Being part of this project has forced them,
978
01:01:19,467 --> 01:01:22,428
you know, to have some shared experiences.
979
01:01:22,428 --> 01:01:26,015
And kind of take a moment to look back
980
01:01:26,015 --> 01:01:29,018
and look where they are, and look at each other.
981
01:02:11,602 --> 01:02:14,313
- I don't think there is a relationship
982
01:02:14,313 --> 01:02:16,691
between my work and Jerry's work.
983
01:02:16,691 --> 01:02:19,694
We've lived apart, we've worked apart.
984
01:02:19,694 --> 01:02:24,031
And we're individual entities as artists.
985
01:02:24,031 --> 01:02:27,118
- We were extremely alike, we finished,
986
01:02:27,118 --> 01:02:29,287
I remember, each other's statements
987
01:02:29,287 --> 01:02:31,998
and sentences, and at the same time,
988
01:02:31,998 --> 01:02:34,917
there was a point where, I think we varied
989
01:02:35,835 --> 01:02:37,503
our interests, we parted.
990
01:02:38,588 --> 01:02:40,923
- If we were both still photographers,
991
01:02:40,923 --> 01:02:44,385
then we would see what was really going on
992
01:02:44,385 --> 01:02:47,305
when we were being nurtured in the womb,
993
01:02:47,305 --> 01:02:50,475
and we'd have probably a better understanding
994
01:02:50,475 --> 01:02:53,394
as life as it's shared within a medium.
995
01:02:53,394 --> 01:02:55,396
But we work in two different mediums.
996
01:03:08,826 --> 01:03:13,163
- The woman pictured here is my wife, Lisa Pennella.
997
01:03:13,163 --> 01:03:17,168
We had one child, Andrew,
998
01:03:17,168 --> 01:03:20,630
who was born with a very rare blood disorder.
999
01:03:20,630 --> 01:03:24,717
And he lived for only 16 years.
1000
01:03:30,014 --> 01:03:35,019
It was the child that would be a memory to her
1001
01:03:35,353 --> 01:03:37,021
and not an adult for her.
1002
01:03:37,897 --> 01:03:39,607
He would be about 23 now.
1003
01:03:41,442 --> 01:03:45,530
Over the 16 years, we held it together
1004
01:03:45,530 --> 01:03:49,033
and raised a kid who had every chance
1005
01:03:49,033 --> 01:03:50,618
of not growing up.
1006
01:03:51,953 --> 01:03:54,121
When it was shown in Mexico, I saw
1007
01:03:54,121 --> 01:03:56,082
her posing next to it.
1008
01:03:56,082 --> 01:03:58,876
People said, could you pose next to your picture?
1009
01:03:58,876 --> 01:03:59,794
And she kind of accepted it.
1010
01:04:02,463 --> 01:04:05,007
That painting is one of my best paintings.
1011
01:04:05,007 --> 01:04:07,134
I didn't know it would happen that quickly.
1012
01:04:07,134 --> 01:04:09,929
I was planning something, and I told Lisa,
1013
01:04:09,929 --> 01:04:12,431
I said, I really want to do a picture
1014
01:04:12,431 --> 01:04:17,395
of you mourning, somehow, our Andrew.
1015
01:04:18,145 --> 01:04:21,148
I said, just come in the studio.
1016
01:04:21,148 --> 01:04:24,068
Just put on some shirt, and I want
1017
01:04:24,068 --> 01:04:25,528
you to hold a picture.
1018
01:04:25,528 --> 01:04:28,614
- I think he already had the design
1019
01:04:28,614 --> 01:04:31,200
of the picture in his head,
1020
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,995
so I mean, it was pretty much a straightforward,
1021
01:04:33,995 --> 01:04:37,665
you know, look at the setup in the studio
1022
01:04:37,665 --> 01:04:39,667
and did a couple drawings,
1023
01:04:39,667 --> 01:04:41,627
and went right on the canvas.
1024
01:04:41,627 --> 01:04:43,212
- This picture came all by itself.
1025
01:04:43,212 --> 01:04:47,300
It's almost like it made itself besides my brush,
1026
01:04:47,300 --> 01:04:49,385
it just happened very quickly.
1027
01:04:50,386 --> 01:04:51,679
And I showed the picture, and she,
1028
01:04:51,679 --> 01:04:54,181
Lisa's a very quiet woman, she just looked at it
1029
01:04:54,181 --> 01:04:57,101
and just left, she didn't say anything.
1030
01:04:57,101 --> 01:04:59,937
And I know in that moment that her brain,
1031
01:04:59,937 --> 01:05:03,065
which is very complex and brilliant,
1032
01:05:03,065 --> 01:05:04,984
she was putting together a lot of good
1033
01:05:04,984 --> 01:05:06,444
feelings about that picture.
1034
01:05:06,444 --> 01:05:09,196
- It was a story, but it was, like, my story,
1035
01:05:09,196 --> 01:05:11,032
and it wasn't too dramatic.
1036
01:05:11,032 --> 01:05:15,995
It was, you know, meaningful without being overstated.
1037
01:05:57,495 --> 01:06:02,458
- Most people who come here and see my artwork
1038
01:06:02,458 --> 01:06:04,502
are very interested.
1039
01:06:04,502 --> 01:06:07,588
Some people are floored and want to come back again
1040
01:06:07,588 --> 01:06:10,341
because they're familiar with Joel's work.
1041
01:06:10,341 --> 01:06:12,426
My sister on the other hand, when she comes
1042
01:06:12,426 --> 01:06:15,888
to visit me, she's so troubled by the images
1043
01:06:15,888 --> 01:06:17,181
in the room that she stays in
1044
01:06:17,181 --> 01:06:19,141
that she covers them with a towel
1045
01:06:19,141 --> 01:06:21,727
so that she doesn't have to have bad dreams
1046
01:06:21,727 --> 01:06:22,895
at night, I guess.
1047
01:06:27,525 --> 01:06:31,445
So, over time, what I've seen Joel's work go
1048
01:06:31,445 --> 01:06:36,450
is move from images that were difficult
1049
01:06:38,327 --> 01:06:42,999
to take in to now, almost
1050
01:06:42,999 --> 01:06:47,378
all of his images, most of his images have
1051
01:06:50,297 --> 01:06:54,010
a beauty and often a tenderness that I didn't
1052
01:06:55,261 --> 01:06:57,846
see in his earlier photographs.
1053
01:07:05,271 --> 01:07:07,940
- I plan something, put it together,
1054
01:07:07,940 --> 01:07:11,777
80% of the time, it works, and when it works,
1055
01:07:11,777 --> 01:07:13,696
I process the negative.
1056
01:07:13,696 --> 01:07:17,283
It's very, very perfect, analogue stuff,
1057
01:07:17,283 --> 01:07:18,826
classical photography.
1058
01:07:18,826 --> 01:07:21,829
I choose the chemicals I sometimes mix,
1059
01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:23,538
the toners I mix too.
1060
01:07:23,538 --> 01:07:28,127
But I look at the negatives, like the contact prints,
1061
01:07:28,127 --> 01:07:31,547
and then spend several hours looking
1062
01:07:31,547 --> 01:07:33,716
at the one I want to choose.
1063
01:07:33,716 --> 01:07:36,177
I never keep any work around
1064
01:07:36,177 --> 01:07:37,261
that I've done before.
1065
01:07:37,261 --> 01:07:38,554
I don't want to look at that.
1066
01:07:38,554 --> 01:07:40,765
That happened in the past, it's not at the moment.
1067
01:07:40,765 --> 01:07:44,393
I have two machines, two industrial enlargers.
1068
01:07:44,393 --> 01:07:46,020
They're De Vere's, they're English.
1069
01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:48,481
I spend a lot of time researching
1070
01:07:48,481 --> 01:07:50,900
the lenses I use, I love doing that.
1071
01:07:50,900 --> 01:07:53,486
And then I'm in my sanctum.
1072
01:10:57,711 --> 01:10:59,797
- Her face is incredible.
1073
01:10:59,797 --> 01:11:00,673
It's incredible.
1074
01:12:20,669 --> 01:12:22,588
- I've been here for 45 years.
1075
01:12:22,588 --> 01:12:25,132
They hired me to teach things like painting
1076
01:12:25,132 --> 01:12:26,133
and drawing.
1077
01:12:26,133 --> 01:12:30,012
And really my life and my career comes
1078
01:12:30,012 --> 01:12:32,806
with the contract to Syracuse.
1079
01:12:32,806 --> 01:12:36,059
So, what's the point of drawing?
1080
01:12:36,059 --> 01:12:38,896
It's to have a deep experience.
1081
01:12:38,896 --> 01:12:42,399
You look at a good actor in a performance,
1082
01:12:42,399 --> 01:12:45,903
and you think, oh my God, I'm with them.
1083
01:12:45,903 --> 01:12:47,863
When you see a drawing, you think,
1084
01:12:47,863 --> 01:12:49,823
oh my God, I see what they're after.
1085
01:12:49,823 --> 01:12:51,950
The guy posing is gonna be Adam
1086
01:12:51,950 --> 01:12:54,411
being tossed out of paradise.
1087
01:13:00,125 --> 01:13:04,713
So, as you get older, you shrink towards the center.
1088
01:13:04,713 --> 01:13:07,132
What you want to do is get back out there again.
1089
01:13:09,635 --> 01:13:11,595
I'm gonna start the drawing by actually
1090
01:13:12,638 --> 01:13:15,391
finding the plant of his feet, and then start
1091
01:13:15,391 --> 01:13:18,143
to draw the body from there up.
1092
01:13:18,143 --> 01:13:19,686
It's a little trickier thing.
1093
01:13:19,686 --> 01:13:21,522
But if we can measure and control,
1094
01:13:22,648 --> 01:13:24,191
and we have the form we want, and then
1095
01:13:24,191 --> 01:13:26,568
we can exaggerate the forms themselves.
1096
01:13:26,568 --> 01:13:27,945
When I go back to his arm,
1097
01:13:29,154 --> 01:13:30,489
both arms, he's got some wonderful
1098
01:13:30,489 --> 01:13:32,866
kind of play with the fingers on his head.
1099
01:13:34,410 --> 01:13:38,122
The twisting is the back of the hand,
1100
01:13:38,122 --> 01:13:42,793
and the wonderful digits that he presents
1101
01:13:43,627 --> 01:13:44,461
on his head.
1102
01:13:45,921 --> 01:13:48,924
You take the face in terms of the structure
1103
01:13:48,924 --> 01:13:50,050
of the forehead.
1104
01:13:51,593 --> 01:13:54,430
And we take the eye, and we take
1105
01:13:54,430 --> 01:13:57,933
the cheek muscle, the nose.
1106
01:13:59,101 --> 01:14:02,896
And before we know it, we have something
1107
01:14:02,896 --> 01:14:04,148
like the pose.
1108
01:14:05,732 --> 01:14:07,568
- Exhale.
1109
01:14:09,695 --> 01:14:10,529
Inhale.
1110
01:14:20,998 --> 01:14:24,334
- I teach art because I think we can influence
1111
01:14:24,334 --> 01:14:28,255
people's wanting to know more about it.
1112
01:14:28,255 --> 01:14:31,758
You can teach some individuals what it is
1113
01:14:31,758 --> 01:14:35,929
to make harder choices to make their own art.
1114
01:14:35,929 --> 01:14:40,309
- I think he's far more deeply into
1115
01:14:42,561 --> 01:14:45,814
intellectual things, the motivations,
1116
01:14:45,814 --> 01:14:47,357
he's an educator.
1117
01:14:47,357 --> 01:14:49,985
I'm not an educator, I'm, basically,
1118
01:14:49,985 --> 01:14:52,279
I'm an adventurer, a visual adventurer.
1119
01:14:52,279 --> 01:14:53,155
That's what I am.
1120
01:15:06,877 --> 01:15:08,086
- I guess I was just searching for
1121
01:15:08,086 --> 01:15:10,923
images that had a certain kind of blunt,
1122
01:15:10,923 --> 01:15:13,091
brutal, intensity.
1123
01:15:13,091 --> 01:15:15,677
This is why we went to Witkin and Francis Bacon.
1124
01:15:20,349 --> 01:15:22,476
This sort of ripped off face idea
1125
01:15:22,476 --> 01:15:26,021
is one of the few homages in the video,
1126
01:15:26,021 --> 01:15:28,732
direct homages to Joel-Peter Witkin.
1127
01:15:31,193 --> 01:15:34,780
♪ You get me closer to God ♪
1128
01:15:44,373 --> 01:15:49,378
♪ You can have my isolation ♪
1129
01:15:49,461 --> 01:15:54,132
♪ You can have that hate that it brings ♪
1130
01:16:48,937 --> 01:16:50,981
- One can assume that one cockroach
1131
01:16:50,981 --> 01:16:54,234
in one soup is one cockroach too many.
1132
01:16:55,861 --> 01:16:58,155
And I feel the same way about the national
1133
01:16:58,155 --> 01:17:00,198
endowment for the arts.
1134
01:17:00,198 --> 01:17:03,201
Joel-Peter Witkin has severed
1135
01:17:03,201 --> 01:17:08,123
the head from a corpse, skinned it,
1136
01:17:09,041 --> 01:17:11,543
and scooped out the brain, and transformed
1137
01:17:11,543 --> 01:17:15,088
that mutilated head into a flower vase.
1138
01:17:15,088 --> 01:17:17,007
He then photographed it, and he submitted,
1139
01:17:17,007 --> 01:17:19,468
as I say, the photograph to the N.E.A.,
1140
01:17:19,468 --> 01:17:21,928
and his cash reward from the N.E.A.
1141
01:17:21,928 --> 01:17:26,516
for that was $20,000, taxpayer's money.
1142
01:17:28,934 --> 01:17:31,063
This is one half of the guy's head,
1143
01:17:31,063 --> 01:17:32,397
this is the other half.
1144
01:17:32,397 --> 01:17:35,359
Now, that is what you call beautiful art.
1145
01:17:35,359 --> 01:17:39,237
And I'm sure it was worth $20,000 to somebody,
1146
01:17:39,237 --> 01:17:43,367
but I don't think you'll find many American taxpayers
1147
01:17:43,367 --> 01:17:47,579
who would agree that his or their money
1148
01:17:47,579 --> 01:17:51,458
ought to be used to pay reward
1149
01:17:51,458 --> 01:17:52,918
to the guy who did that.
1150
01:18:04,471 --> 01:18:08,016
- People bring their own baggage to whatever they see,
1151
01:18:08,016 --> 01:18:09,601
you know?
1152
01:18:09,601 --> 01:18:11,395
And what they see is what they want to see,
1153
01:18:11,395 --> 01:18:12,813
what the believe in.
1154
01:18:14,064 --> 01:18:18,610
What I can realize and put forth is
1155
01:18:18,610 --> 01:18:22,906
images that are purposeful and strong
1156
01:18:22,906 --> 01:18:25,575
and beautiful and relevant.
1157
01:18:25,575 --> 01:18:28,620
I love the unloved.
1158
01:19:01,653 --> 01:19:06,199
When Barbara got sick, it didn't even dawn
1159
01:19:06,199 --> 01:19:08,493
on me that she had cancer.
1160
01:19:08,493 --> 01:19:11,288
You know, I would drive her to the cancer center,
1161
01:19:11,288 --> 01:19:13,749
and then she would say to me,
1162
01:19:13,749 --> 01:19:15,751
well, I'm here because I have cancer.
1163
01:19:15,751 --> 01:19:18,253
I said, well, you never really told me that.
1164
01:19:18,253 --> 01:19:19,921
What happened over the next six years
1165
01:19:19,921 --> 01:19:24,425
was the alimentation of her dying.
1166
01:19:24,425 --> 01:19:28,638
And I was a caregiver for the last six months
1167
01:19:28,638 --> 01:19:30,724
when she was in hospice at the house,
1168
01:19:30,724 --> 01:19:32,392
in the big room, the library.
1169
01:19:34,728 --> 01:19:37,898
For me, that was one of the most
1170
01:19:37,898 --> 01:19:39,523
wonderful experiences of my life.
1171
01:19:39,523 --> 01:19:42,277
I mean, she was very gracious.
1172
01:19:46,490 --> 01:19:47,824
- Joel is the main cook.
1173
01:19:48,700 --> 01:19:51,912
Although Joel tends to sometimes overdo things,
1174
01:19:51,912 --> 01:19:55,707
like he thinks more is better, like more
1175
01:19:55,707 --> 01:19:58,335
spices and things like that.
1176
01:19:58,335 --> 01:20:01,922
Or he'll put the broccoli in the blender.
1177
01:20:04,508 --> 01:20:05,383
I don't know why.
1178
01:20:05,383 --> 01:20:08,178
I like my vegetables so you can identify them.
1179
01:20:12,307 --> 01:20:13,266
But he won't listen to me.
1180
01:20:14,351 --> 01:20:15,936
He gets outraged.
1181
01:20:27,531 --> 01:20:31,201
I always thought I had a bedside manner
1182
01:20:31,201 --> 01:20:32,744
of a pathologist, you know,
1183
01:20:32,744 --> 01:20:35,372
very cold and staying unobjective,
1184
01:20:35,372 --> 01:20:38,208
until Barbara got sick, then I changed.
1185
01:20:58,353 --> 01:21:02,440
- I think people's perception of him is incredibly
1186
01:21:03,441 --> 01:21:07,988
different, Joel the public man from Joel the private man.
1187
01:21:07,988 --> 01:21:12,993
He is a very kind, compassionate, loving person.
1188
01:21:18,957 --> 01:21:22,669
- I was attending her, I would change the urine bag,
1189
01:21:22,669 --> 01:21:26,006
I would clean her up when she lost control,
1190
01:21:26,006 --> 01:21:28,925
and it was an act of love.
1191
01:21:28,925 --> 01:21:32,804
It's back to my grandmother and my mother
1192
01:21:32,804 --> 01:21:35,098
and coffee and love.
1193
01:21:35,098 --> 01:21:39,019
And it was very important to me.
1194
01:21:42,022 --> 01:21:46,067
And it was a grey moment, love of my life.
1195
01:21:47,402 --> 01:21:50,030
And I'll always be with her.
1196
01:22:00,206 --> 01:22:03,001
When you're young, you think you're never gonna die,
1197
01:22:03,001 --> 01:22:06,212
everything is forever, and that kind of stuff.
1198
01:22:06,212 --> 01:22:10,550
You need that for the dynamism of your life
1199
01:22:10,550 --> 01:22:14,262
and what you're gonna do, and the whole
1200
01:22:15,263 --> 01:22:17,307
maturation of events that occur
1201
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:20,769
that you have to decide on, and the quality
1202
01:22:20,769 --> 01:22:21,603
of decision.
1203
01:22:21,603 --> 01:22:24,731
But when you get older, you have this kind of
1204
01:22:26,316 --> 01:22:29,861
more gentle romanticism, you're concerned,
1205
01:22:30,862 --> 01:22:34,157
things are far more poetic and loving
1206
01:22:34,157 --> 01:22:36,409
because they're going to disappear.
1207
01:22:51,049 --> 01:22:54,010
- It's hard, you know, to lose a partner,
1208
01:22:55,470 --> 01:22:59,933
and kind of re-find yourself or equalize yourself.
1209
01:22:59,933 --> 01:23:02,268
When I've spoken to him since Barbara's death,
1210
01:23:02,268 --> 01:23:05,146
I feel like he has, he's much softer,
1211
01:23:05,146 --> 01:23:07,065
he's much easier for me to speak to.
1212
01:23:08,066 --> 01:23:12,946
And, you know, I feel like, you know,
1213
01:23:12,946 --> 01:23:14,739
that, especially that first year
1214
01:23:14,739 --> 01:23:17,784
after you lose someone, you're so tender,
1215
01:23:17,784 --> 01:23:20,745
that I feel that too when I speak to him.
1216
01:23:23,373 --> 01:23:25,416
Jerome and Joel, you know, they have
1217
01:23:26,501 --> 01:23:28,294
common experiences as children,
1218
01:23:28,294 --> 01:23:30,422
but then they kind of diverge so dramatically.
1219
01:23:30,422 --> 01:23:34,259
And now that they're in their late 70's,
1220
01:23:34,259 --> 01:23:38,096
I mean, better to make peace and for them
1221
01:23:38,096 --> 01:23:40,432
to have if not a close relationship,
1222
01:23:40,432 --> 01:23:42,726
a good relationship, an open relationship.
1223
01:23:46,771 --> 01:23:48,064
- We can be in the same room,
1224
01:23:48,064 --> 01:23:50,233
we can talk to people together,
1225
01:23:50,233 --> 01:23:52,068
and yet we don't talk to each other.
1226
01:23:53,153 --> 01:23:54,821
- I think it's Jerry's nature
1227
01:23:54,821 --> 01:23:58,032
to be more distanced, and basically
1228
01:23:58,032 --> 01:24:02,077
more, ohh...
1229
01:24:02,077 --> 01:24:04,664
Less, well, more formal, and less informal.
1230
01:24:05,665 --> 01:24:08,877
- I don't call him up to say much.
1231
01:24:08,877 --> 01:24:11,546
When he calls me up, it's something
1232
01:24:11,546 --> 01:24:13,256
important for him.
1233
01:24:13,256 --> 01:24:15,633
He called me up last time to get the name
1234
01:24:15,633 --> 01:24:20,263
of a carpenter who made a crucifix for him
1235
01:24:20,263 --> 01:24:22,390
for an earlier work.
1236
01:24:22,390 --> 01:24:25,309
And we didn't share anything after that,
1237
01:24:25,309 --> 01:24:26,728
it was just, okay.
1238
01:24:26,728 --> 01:24:28,188
- We lived separate lives in different
1239
01:24:28,188 --> 01:24:30,315
parts of the country, we've have different
1240
01:24:30,315 --> 01:24:35,320
experiences, and I don't find anything odd about it,
1241
01:24:37,572 --> 01:24:39,907
it's the fact that it's the way it is.
1242
01:24:49,125 --> 01:24:49,959
Okay.
1243
01:24:51,669 --> 01:24:52,837
Mercedesville.
1244
01:24:55,131 --> 01:24:56,341
Got this car for $3,000.
1245
01:25:00,595 --> 01:25:02,013
I get all used cars.
1246
01:25:16,568 --> 01:25:19,864
- I thought of the death of one us a lot.
1247
01:25:19,864 --> 01:25:24,702
And I think it would be hard,
1248
01:25:24,702 --> 01:25:29,374
it would feel like you've lost an identity.
1249
01:25:30,834 --> 01:25:35,130
Knowing that Joel is there, working
1250
01:25:35,130 --> 01:25:37,549
just continues our history.
1251
01:25:38,466 --> 01:25:40,969
I mean, it's like the sun comes up
1252
01:25:40,969 --> 01:25:42,345
and the sun goes down.
1253
01:25:42,345 --> 01:25:46,391
There is my twin, and he's there and I'm here.
1254
01:25:46,391 --> 01:25:48,726
Even though we don't communicate
1255
01:25:48,726 --> 01:25:52,272
maybe 99% of the time, we know that we
1256
01:25:53,523 --> 01:25:56,442
are existing, we are working, and of late,
1257
01:25:56,442 --> 01:25:57,693
we're showing together.
1258
01:26:00,029 --> 01:26:03,532
We are strangers, and I think we leave it there.
1259
01:26:10,498 --> 01:26:12,125
- From around 1606.
1260
01:26:12,125 --> 01:26:16,254
Act 3 Scene 8, a plain near Actium.
1261
01:26:17,463 --> 01:26:19,174
- Is it Romeo and Juliet?
1262
01:26:19,174 --> 01:26:23,845
- The play is Antony and Cleopatra.
1263
01:26:23,845 --> 01:26:24,929
Daily double.
1264
01:26:28,433 --> 01:26:30,101
The engraving of this young man
1265
01:26:30,101 --> 01:26:32,520
and his father is entitled father,
1266
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,148
I cannot tell a lie, I cut the tree.
1267
01:26:35,148 --> 01:26:36,232
- George Washington.
1268
01:26:36,232 --> 01:26:37,066
- Lisa.
1269
01:26:37,066 --> 01:26:37,901
- Who is George Washington?
1270
01:26:37,901 --> 01:26:38,735
- Yes.
1271
01:26:38,735 --> 01:26:41,196
Blood Falls, which flows into Lake Bonney
1272
01:26:41,196 --> 01:26:44,240
get its color because it is rich in this element.
1273
01:26:44,240 --> 01:26:45,241
- Copper.
1274
01:26:45,241 --> 01:26:46,075
- Iron.
1275
01:26:46,075 --> 01:26:47,619
- Iron, yeah.
1276
01:26:47,619 --> 01:26:48,452
- Okay.
1277
01:26:50,788 --> 01:26:52,916
Oh God, they fool you again.
1278
01:26:52,916 --> 01:26:53,833
It's a commercial.
1279
01:26:56,294 --> 01:26:57,462
Ugh, shit.
1280
01:26:57,462 --> 01:26:58,880
- A street in New Orleans
1281
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:01,674
which is named Elysian Fields, and runs between
1282
01:27:01,674 --> 01:27:03,175
the L & N tracks and the river.
1283
01:27:03,175 --> 01:27:04,010
- Street car named desire.
1284
01:27:04,010 --> 01:27:04,886
- Desire.
1285
01:27:04,886 --> 01:27:05,720
- Derek.
1286
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:07,597
- What is Street Car Named Desire?
1287
01:27:07,597 --> 01:27:09,015
- That's the play.
1288
01:27:09,015 --> 01:27:12,769
In 1978, this redheaded stranger
1289
01:27:12,769 --> 01:27:17,106
released Stardust, an album of pop standards.
1290
01:27:18,816 --> 01:27:19,651
- Willie Nelson.
1291
01:27:19,651 --> 01:27:20,485
- Who is Reba McIntyre?
1292
01:27:20,485 --> 01:27:21,443
- No.
1293
01:27:21,443 --> 01:27:22,946
- Willie Nelson.
1294
01:27:22,946 --> 01:27:24,530
- It was Willie Nelson.
1295
01:27:25,365 --> 01:27:27,492
- Country music 600.
1296
01:27:27,492 --> 01:27:29,702
- In 1975 a double album was--
1297
01:27:29,702 --> 01:27:34,290
- Wait, in 18, that was the war of 1812,
1298
01:27:34,290 --> 01:27:35,959
The Star Spangled Banner.
1299
01:27:38,544 --> 01:27:39,420
What's it called?
1300
01:27:40,296 --> 01:27:42,590
A literal one of these two word terms
1301
01:27:42,590 --> 01:27:45,969
in the beginning of '64, enjoyed musical,
1302
01:27:45,969 --> 01:27:50,932
it's something to do with, uhh...
1303
01:27:51,307 --> 01:27:55,687
A musical beginning in 1964,
1304
01:27:55,687 --> 01:27:58,439
enjoyed a musical one.
1305
01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:00,316
Stars and Stripes?
1306
01:28:00,316 --> 01:28:01,901
- Julie, you were on this like a shot.
1307
01:28:01,901 --> 01:28:03,361
You started writing immediately.
1308
01:28:03,361 --> 01:28:05,363
Let's see if you came up with the correct response.
1309
01:28:05,363 --> 01:28:08,032
You wrote down, what is a British invasion,
1310
01:28:08,032 --> 01:28:09,200
and you are right.
1311
01:28:09,200 --> 01:28:10,034
- Ah.
1312
01:28:11,494 --> 01:28:16,499
- On the scale of 100, I'm maybe 22 in knowledge.
1313
01:28:16,499 --> 01:28:18,835
But some of these people are like,
1314
01:28:18,835 --> 01:28:21,629
beyond 100, they're amazing.
1315
01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:24,257
- Ah, shit.
1316
01:28:25,925 --> 01:28:27,093
Well, that's it.
1317
01:28:28,177 --> 01:28:29,178
Damn it.
90862
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