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1
00:00:02,676 --> 00:00:05,236
By creating a film
of this type...
2
00:00:08,048 --> 00:00:10,642
it's my personal...
3
00:00:10,717 --> 00:00:14,881
and virtually
undocumentable feeling
4
00:00:14,954 --> 00:00:19,653
that this is only going to,
again, cause people to say,
5
00:00:19,726 --> 00:00:21,887
"Well, gee,
look at that design.
6
00:00:21,961 --> 00:00:23,622
I can do better than that."
7
00:00:23,697 --> 00:00:25,494
And they're going to try.
8
00:00:25,565 --> 00:00:27,123
And that's what
we don't want.
9
00:00:39,713 --> 00:00:41,840
Case:
That's why I'm
letting you know now,
10
00:00:41,915 --> 00:00:43,439
I'm feeling the vibes.
11
00:00:43,516 --> 00:00:45,848
I know how this shit is,
with the program--
12
00:00:45,919 --> 00:00:47,853
it don't pressure me.
13
00:00:47,921 --> 00:00:49,889
This shit is all
over with, to me.
14
00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:51,924
I don't want it
to seem like in the show
15
00:00:51,991 --> 00:00:53,891
like I still do it
or none of that.
16
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,861
It's just I was one of the olden
brothers from way back,
17
00:00:56,930 --> 00:00:59,524
maybe years-- and knowing
what was up with it.
18
00:00:59,599 --> 00:01:04,627
That way I would keep
my reprancy or discrepancy
process real righteously right.
19
00:01:06,506 --> 00:01:09,031
Case:
I don't even think about
this no more, man.
20
00:01:09,109 --> 00:01:11,236
'Cause you see
how it look now anyway, right?
21
00:01:11,311 --> 00:01:14,144
That's what I'm saying,
you know?
22
00:01:14,214 --> 00:01:17,206
Just don't
let nobody know it,
till they see it for they self.
23
00:01:17,283 --> 00:01:19,342
That's what I'm saying.
When they see ours--
24
00:01:19,419 --> 00:01:21,512
our whole car's
always crushing,
you know?
25
00:01:21,588 --> 00:01:23,613
We is the monsters,
know what I'm saying?
26
00:01:23,690 --> 00:01:26,386
- Always the kings of this line.
- Stuff like this here.
27
00:01:26,459 --> 00:01:28,393
We would have
no problem.
You know.
28
00:01:28,461 --> 00:01:30,452
- Burning that up.
- Word, man.
29
00:01:31,731 --> 00:01:33,756
They always came to me
with paint, whatever,
30
00:01:33,833 --> 00:01:36,097
and say, "Yo, Case, man,
hook me up this and that.
31
00:01:36,169 --> 00:01:38,467
Hook me up with style."
I did it, I'd get 'em style.
32
00:01:38,538 --> 00:01:41,632
I had so much style,
from having so much
spark and charisma,
33
00:01:41,708 --> 00:01:45,303
wisdom and knowledge plus
understanding behind it,
you know?
34
00:01:45,378 --> 00:01:47,312
They came to me
for "Style Wise"
35
00:01:47,380 --> 00:01:50,281
and I didn't mind
generating my generosity,
you know, so I did it.
36
00:01:50,350 --> 00:01:53,581
I felt as though if I did this
it's like doing a good thing
37
00:01:53,653 --> 00:01:56,622
in favoritism to myself as far
as good luck-wise or whatever,
38
00:01:56,689 --> 00:01:58,122
you know?
So I done it.
39
00:01:59,192 --> 00:02:02,218
See how I'm always doing
my computers, right?
Like connectors.
40
00:02:02,295 --> 00:02:05,196
See how I got
the smoothness
camouflaged like?
41
00:02:05,265 --> 00:02:07,062
See how that "A"
look like camouflage,
42
00:02:07,133 --> 00:02:10,000
real neat and dipping through
there with the "S" and things?
43
00:02:10,069 --> 00:02:12,128
You know that shows you
the odd-even thing.
44
00:02:12,205 --> 00:02:14,230
- It balances out.
- Yeah.
45
00:02:14,307 --> 00:02:16,741
There go the Fonz.
Look at the Fonz.
46
00:02:16,810 --> 00:02:20,246
- Word. There you go.
- It's the Fonz.
47
00:02:20,313 --> 00:02:22,838
Look at that nigger.
That nigger loves the movie.
48
00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:25,976
Hey, you know it's us,
The Cold Crush.
49
00:02:26,052 --> 00:02:28,111
You said something right there,
that's right.
50
00:02:28,188 --> 00:02:30,247
Tony:
That's the main thing?
Breaking, too?
51
00:02:30,323 --> 00:02:32,382
Yeah, B-Boying,
you know?
52
00:02:32,458 --> 00:02:34,688
That's what I'm saying,
the Rock Steady Crew.
53
00:02:34,761 --> 00:02:37,491
Yeah it come out like,
from the streets, you know?
54
00:02:37,564 --> 00:02:39,998
People hanging out,
they ain't got nothing to do.
55
00:02:40,066 --> 00:02:42,728
I remember, like,
before that...
56
00:02:42,802 --> 00:02:47,000
hip-hop stuff started out,
nigger's banging on the mailbox.
57
00:02:47,073 --> 00:02:49,769
You know,
like Hard-Hands Barretto.
58
00:02:49,843 --> 00:02:51,367
You know
Hard-Hands Barretto?
59
00:02:51,444 --> 00:02:54,311
He's a Latin star now.
He started out in
the ghetto too,
60
00:02:54,380 --> 00:02:57,816
playing on garbage cans.
Well, we used to bang on
the mailbox,
61
00:02:57,884 --> 00:03:00,079
boom, bang, bang, you know,
and start rhyming.
62
00:03:00,153 --> 00:03:02,144
And that's how Flash
and all these niggers--
63
00:03:02,222 --> 00:03:04,690
they come out to the park
with a little DJ set,
64
00:03:04,757 --> 00:03:06,952
and now they're on the radio
and stuff like that.
65
00:03:07,026 --> 00:03:09,586
And that's why, you know,
us graffiti artists,
66
00:03:09,662 --> 00:03:11,596
now we're trying
to get up there, you know?
67
00:03:11,664 --> 00:03:15,065
Still, we ain't getting nowhere,
but we're getting a little
recognition now.
68
00:03:15,134 --> 00:03:17,466
Case:
'Cause we stopped writing,
that's why.
69
00:03:17,537 --> 00:03:19,664
It's like, you know,
we know our potential.
70
00:03:19,739 --> 00:03:22,606
We done got fame,
you know, kick the game
and all type things.
71
00:03:22,675 --> 00:03:25,235
It wasn't no thing,
we just did it and got it
over with,
72
00:03:25,311 --> 00:03:27,245
you know? That's all
there was to it.
73
00:03:27,313 --> 00:03:30,612
Now it be about women, cash,
money and all type things,
you know.
74
00:03:35,455 --> 00:03:38,015
Oh, styles? I just--
I write the way I write.
75
00:03:38,091 --> 00:03:41,026
I got my own style,
that's all.
76
00:03:41,094 --> 00:03:43,289
- Henry: Where'd you get it?
- I made it up.
77
00:03:45,265 --> 00:03:47,597
But it looks something like
other graffiti styles.
78
00:03:47,667 --> 00:03:50,795
- No, it looks like my style.
- I know it looks like
your style, but--
79
00:03:50,870 --> 00:03:53,134
Cameraman:
Hold it, hold it.
Cut, cut.
80
00:03:56,175 --> 00:03:58,643
- Cameraman: Turning?
- Sound man: Yeah. Go.
81
00:03:58,711 --> 00:04:01,009
Henry:
John, where did you
get your style?
82
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,878
I developed it, you know?
I didn't get it from nobody.
83
00:04:03,950 --> 00:04:05,975
Didn't you look
at other graffiti?
84
00:04:06,052 --> 00:04:09,613
Yeah, but just to read it,
not to copy their style.
85
00:04:09,689 --> 00:04:11,782
And these ridiculous fights
that they have about
86
00:04:11,858 --> 00:04:15,521
somebody crossing them out,
which is absolutely ridiculous.
87
00:04:15,595 --> 00:04:19,395
Yeah.
If you mess with us,
yeah, of course.
88
00:04:19,465 --> 00:04:22,457
Nobody walks around with
machine-guns in their pockets.
89
00:04:22,535 --> 00:04:26,767
If you mess with us,
just like regular people,
we're gonna defend ourselves.
90
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,206
And if you mess with us real,
we know we're gonna come
looking for you,
91
00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:33,074
and we're gonna get you too.
We're gonna get you.
92
00:04:34,113 --> 00:04:36,138
( sighs )
93
00:04:36,215 --> 00:04:38,877
You want to film
this fist-fight we're
getting ready to have?
94
00:04:38,952 --> 00:04:40,920
Is that what it is?
95
00:04:49,162 --> 00:04:51,153
I guess it's
pretty much like
96
00:04:51,230 --> 00:04:54,199
anything I would do on a train,
I would do on canvas,
97
00:04:54,267 --> 00:04:57,395
or whatever I choose
to paint on.
98
00:04:57,470 --> 00:04:59,370
I'm still using spray-paint.
99
00:04:59,439 --> 00:05:02,408
I'm still using
the same basic technique
100
00:05:02,475 --> 00:05:06,036
as painting trains--
just about.
101
00:05:06,112 --> 00:05:08,546
I think it's pretty much
the same thing,
102
00:05:08,614 --> 00:05:11,048
it's just been
scaled down much smaller.
103
00:05:21,594 --> 00:05:24,188
- Dondi: Let's go to work.
- Marisol: I hear you.
104
00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:39,039
Marisol:
This shit is bad.
105
00:05:41,180 --> 00:05:45,139
And this one's called
"Sands of York."
106
00:05:45,218 --> 00:05:47,413
It's...
107
00:05:47,487 --> 00:05:49,614
it's a letter "B."
108
00:05:49,689 --> 00:05:51,623
There's a painting
under this
109
00:05:51,691 --> 00:05:54,524
that I went over,
that I did in 1980.
110
00:05:54,594 --> 00:05:57,529
I didn't actually like it.
It was called "I Love New York."
111
00:05:57,597 --> 00:05:59,758
I decided to paint
this over it.
112
00:05:59,832 --> 00:06:02,198
I like it much better now.
113
00:06:02,268 --> 00:06:04,759
I can scale down letters,
like pretty easy.
114
00:06:04,837 --> 00:06:07,067
I did pieces probably...
115
00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:09,335
almost this size
on a train with Aaron.
116
00:06:09,409 --> 00:06:12,867
We were doing
some real small pieces,
117
00:06:12,945 --> 00:06:15,277
looked like they were
chiseled into the subways
118
00:06:15,348 --> 00:06:18,044
because of the way
I had the 3-Ds going down.
119
00:06:18,117 --> 00:06:20,745
Actually way below
the window.
120
00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:24,722
I have really no problem
in scaling them down to canvas.
121
00:06:24,791 --> 00:06:27,123
Compared to a piece
on a train
122
00:06:27,193 --> 00:06:31,095
this is like--
this is like a miniature dude.
123
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,534
And this one...
124
00:06:36,602 --> 00:06:40,231
me and a fellow
named Rammellzee did.
125
00:06:41,974 --> 00:06:45,341
This one is
the armored letter "E."
126
00:06:45,411 --> 00:06:49,677
And he sort of has his own
beliefs about that...
127
00:06:51,584 --> 00:06:55,782
why he arms letters.
128
00:06:55,855 --> 00:06:57,846
- What, to arm a letter?
- Yeah.
129
00:06:57,924 --> 00:07:00,757
Just so it could
defend itself, actually.
130
00:07:00,827 --> 00:07:03,318
'Cause he says...
131
00:07:03,396 --> 00:07:07,492
the Christians put
a Catholic symbol on a letter
132
00:07:07,567 --> 00:07:11,230
and the only way to destroy
a symbol is with a symbol.
133
00:07:11,304 --> 00:07:15,172
So in order to destroy a symbol
you have to arm a symbol.
134
00:07:15,241 --> 00:07:19,075
And he thinks
by arming letters
135
00:07:19,145 --> 00:07:22,581
this Christian symbol
will be destroyed.
136
00:07:22,648 --> 00:07:25,640
I hate getting into
Rammellzee's religion and shit.
137
00:07:25,718 --> 00:07:28,152
It's like too deep
for me and shit.
138
00:07:28,221 --> 00:07:32,885
Rammellzee would smack me
for even saying something
like that.
139
00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:35,120
This is an arrow,
140
00:07:35,194 --> 00:07:37,094
which actually fires.
141
00:07:37,163 --> 00:07:39,063
And this is like...
142
00:07:39,132 --> 00:07:42,033
some type of like,
maybe machine-gun
you would have--
143
00:07:42,101 --> 00:07:44,535
that shoots rays.
144
00:07:44,604 --> 00:07:47,437
And this thing is also
like a machine-gun.
145
00:07:47,507 --> 00:07:49,737
And this piece right here,
146
00:07:49,809 --> 00:07:52,972
this is like
a gauge or hinge.
147
00:07:53,045 --> 00:07:54,979
And this thing is
supposed to actually do
148
00:07:55,047 --> 00:07:58,380
a full 360 so it could even
defend itself from behind
149
00:07:58,451 --> 00:08:00,749
or the side, or whatever.
150
00:08:00,820 --> 00:08:03,220
If it was actual,
if it was real,
151
00:08:03,289 --> 00:08:05,723
this would be a weapon.
152
00:08:05,791 --> 00:08:08,726
This would be
a tank actually,
153
00:08:08,794 --> 00:08:12,127
as he would put it.
And this particular letter
154
00:08:12,198 --> 00:08:15,190
would be able
to defend itself.
155
00:08:16,402 --> 00:08:19,337
From writing graffiti
on trains
156
00:08:19,405 --> 00:08:22,738
and trying to take an art class,
you know, it's like--
157
00:08:23,910 --> 00:08:25,878
Well, I just couldn't
do it, you know?
158
00:08:25,945 --> 00:08:28,880
I couldn't see myself
doing it.
159
00:08:28,948 --> 00:08:31,815
So I never really
took an art class.
160
00:08:31,884 --> 00:08:33,909
But then, okay, see like--
161
00:08:33,986 --> 00:08:37,615
then there's like a graffiti--
162
00:08:37,690 --> 00:08:40,318
it's not really a law, but--
163
00:08:40,393 --> 00:08:45,262
if a dude is using your style
and you definitely know it,
164
00:08:45,331 --> 00:08:47,731
and everyone else
knows it, you know?
165
00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,325
But in our class
166
00:08:50,403 --> 00:08:52,633
it seems like that's
accepted or something,
167
00:08:52,705 --> 00:08:55,799
to like use
other people's ideas.
168
00:08:55,875 --> 00:08:58,173
Most of the other writers
who write now,
169
00:08:58,244 --> 00:08:59,973
have been busted
once already.
170
00:09:00,046 --> 00:09:02,708
Or twice or what have you,
you know.
171
00:09:02,782 --> 00:09:07,014
As before like in old writers,
if you got busted you just quit.
172
00:09:07,086 --> 00:09:10,988
You didn't want to be out there
getting busted, you know,
173
00:09:11,057 --> 00:09:13,321
that was like, I mean--
174
00:09:13,392 --> 00:09:16,122
that was like--
you didn't know the yard
175
00:09:16,195 --> 00:09:18,789
or you just didn't know what
you were doing or something...
176
00:09:18,864 --> 00:09:20,798
if you got busted.
177
00:09:20,866 --> 00:09:23,562
That's how, like, old writers
look at it actually.
178
00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:32,501
Well actually,
my art teacher started me.
179
00:09:32,578 --> 00:09:34,569
Although she didn't know it.
180
00:09:34,647 --> 00:09:36,615
She asked us
to do a project
181
00:09:36,682 --> 00:09:39,845
dealing with graffiti
on a train station wall.
182
00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:41,978
Or a truck or whatever.
183
00:09:42,054 --> 00:09:44,318
I gave it my best shot.
184
00:09:44,390 --> 00:09:47,257
Then one day I was writing
on the lunchroom table.
185
00:09:47,326 --> 00:09:49,794
A kid comes over to me
asking me what it was.
186
00:09:49,862 --> 00:09:52,194
I started bragging about
the graffiti I was doing.
187
00:09:52,265 --> 00:09:55,928
He pulled out
a Pilot and showed me what
real graffiti was all about.
188
00:09:56,002 --> 00:09:59,938
From that point on I was just
more intrigued by it,
189
00:10:00,006 --> 00:10:03,806
and didn't know
that it was wrong to do,
being a kid and all that.
190
00:10:03,876 --> 00:10:08,006
Naturally you're inspired
to do something secretive
191
00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,480
and against rules
and regulations.
192
00:10:12,018 --> 00:10:15,476
There was always that
mischievous thing about it.
193
00:10:15,554 --> 00:10:18,250
Knowing that it was against
rules and regulations
194
00:10:18,324 --> 00:10:22,385
but still knowing you can
get away with it secretly--
secretively,
195
00:10:22,461 --> 00:10:25,157
and still gain
recognition on it.
196
00:10:25,231 --> 00:10:27,165
A lot of people
didn't care for it
197
00:10:27,233 --> 00:10:29,326
but there was a handful
of people that still did,
198
00:10:29,402 --> 00:10:32,098
and those are the people
that kept it alive.
199
00:10:32,171 --> 00:10:35,470
People like Cliff
and Vinnie,
200
00:10:35,541 --> 00:10:38,237
and like Superstrut,
Stem and Tee.
201
00:10:38,311 --> 00:10:40,745
I could go on forever like
naming old names.
202
00:10:41,881 --> 00:10:43,906
It's like...
203
00:10:43,983 --> 00:10:47,009
you know, ask Blade.
I mean, why does he still write?
204
00:10:47,086 --> 00:10:49,884
I mean he's been writing
longer than me, you know?
205
00:11:05,271 --> 00:11:06,863
Crazy Legs:
The Bronx.
206
00:11:06,939 --> 00:11:10,670
It started from 183rd Street
and Creston.
207
00:11:10,743 --> 00:11:13,211
Then like, you know,
it was like...
208
00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:16,646
there for around two years,
three years, right.
209
00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:18,843
Then they stopped breakin',
right?
210
00:11:18,918 --> 00:11:22,319
So the pres of everybody,
his name is Jimmy Dee,
211
00:11:22,388 --> 00:11:24,879
he told me to make
a visit to Manhattan,
212
00:11:24,957 --> 00:11:26,891
so then I made one
over here.
213
00:11:26,959 --> 00:11:29,393
Like most of the people stopped
from the Bronx already,
214
00:11:29,462 --> 00:11:31,521
but some of them are trying
to come back now
215
00:11:31,597 --> 00:11:34,225
because they hear that people
are making money doing it.
216
00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:36,928
( hip-hop music playing )
217
00:11:44,410 --> 00:11:48,176
I went to the Bronx,
to a party.
218
00:11:50,616 --> 00:11:53,414
I met up with him
after a long time.
219
00:11:53,486 --> 00:11:57,286
I asked him if I could use
the name "Rock Steady"
and he said, "Yeah."
220
00:11:57,356 --> 00:11:59,824
But now I don't know
where he's at.
221
00:11:59,892 --> 00:12:03,350
He disappeared.
So for now, he left me
in charge.
222
00:12:03,429 --> 00:12:07,525
And I started going all around
getting different people,
223
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,125
and like certain people
who have been working with me,
224
00:12:10,202 --> 00:12:12,432
you know,
keeping things organized.
225
00:12:12,505 --> 00:12:15,167
( hip-hop music playing )
226
00:12:29,455 --> 00:12:31,389
Master Float.
227
00:12:31,457 --> 00:12:34,221
Flow Master-- they call him
Master Float, though.
228
00:12:34,293 --> 00:12:36,454
He taught me how to float.
229
00:12:36,529 --> 00:12:38,861
He taught me
pop, pop, lock it.
230
00:12:38,931 --> 00:12:42,332
Pop and move
like a robot, you know?
231
00:12:44,336 --> 00:12:47,328
I like, just learned it
about two weeks ago.
232
00:12:47,406 --> 00:12:49,499
I'm getting gooder
by the minute.
233
00:12:49,575 --> 00:12:52,738
Tony:
Where did it
come from originally?
234
00:12:52,812 --> 00:12:54,939
California.
235
00:12:55,014 --> 00:12:57,039
Like LA. LA.
236
00:12:57,116 --> 00:12:59,277
LA.
237
00:12:59,351 --> 00:13:01,216
Is it hard breaking?
238
00:13:01,287 --> 00:13:03,687
Nah, it's like--
it's called electrical boogie.
239
00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:06,384
It's like the robot.
And it's pop locking.
240
00:13:06,459 --> 00:13:08,393
You do a move
and you like hold it.
241
00:13:08,461 --> 00:13:11,658
Then you move back
and then you start floating.
242
00:13:11,730 --> 00:13:13,698
Then you come back.
243
00:13:13,766 --> 00:13:16,234
Then you stop,
do the lean or something.
244
00:13:16,302 --> 00:13:19,100
Then you just float, stop
and then you pop.
245
00:13:19,171 --> 00:13:23,505
When you pop, you lock it.
You hold it there...
246
00:13:23,576 --> 00:13:26,272
like that.
247
00:13:26,345 --> 00:13:28,813
- Where'd you learn to do it?
- I learned from him.
248
00:13:28,881 --> 00:13:31,748
We had another guy in our crew
that used to do it
249
00:13:31,817 --> 00:13:35,981
but he's no longer with us
so I just learned from him.
250
00:13:36,055 --> 00:13:38,250
Once you get to know it,
it's easy.
251
00:13:38,324 --> 00:13:41,191
- Who is he?
- This guy is called Mr. Freeze.
252
00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:44,423
- Where's he from?
- He's from Paris.
253
00:13:52,605 --> 00:13:55,403
Everything pretty
is getting dogged.
Have you seen that?
254
00:13:55,474 --> 00:13:58,068
Cap:
You're proving that
at Graphiti Productions--
255
00:13:58,143 --> 00:14:01,340
that going over people
is not the only way
to get fame.
256
00:14:01,413 --> 00:14:04,405
So you have your side, too.
I'm just doing my own thing.
257
00:14:04,483 --> 00:14:07,418
But who's gonna tell
these little toy writers
that that's--
258
00:14:07,486 --> 00:14:09,886
that this is one way
to get fame?
259
00:14:09,955 --> 00:14:12,788
The other way they see
to get fame is to go
over people.
260
00:14:12,858 --> 00:14:15,452
Yeah, but I go
over them, too.
261
00:14:15,528 --> 00:14:17,155
What do you plan
to do in the future?
262
00:14:17,229 --> 00:14:19,356
You going to keep, like,
going over the people
263
00:14:19,431 --> 00:14:22,923
you've been going over,
or you gonna make peace
with some people?
264
00:14:23,002 --> 00:14:24,936
Well, I don't know.
265
00:14:25,004 --> 00:14:27,131
People start with me
or they start with my crew,
266
00:14:27,206 --> 00:14:29,231
I start going over
everything they have.
267
00:14:29,308 --> 00:14:32,436
I'm not like people--
you go over one of mine,
I go over one of yours.
268
00:14:32,511 --> 00:14:35,480
You go over one of mine,
I go over everything you're
gonna do, ever.
269
00:14:35,548 --> 00:14:39,279
Anywhere I can find it.
And when I catch you, I'll just
beat the shit out of you.
270
00:14:39,351 --> 00:14:42,218
We always outran the cops
and scaled them fences.
271
00:14:42,288 --> 00:14:45,621
But we can't-- but we can't
outrun each other.
272
00:14:45,691 --> 00:14:48,626
We can't play with
each other's heads anymore.
273
00:14:48,694 --> 00:14:51,185
We'll be the end
of our own graffiti.
274
00:14:55,234 --> 00:14:58,897
At one time we had information
that these kids,
275
00:14:58,971 --> 00:15:01,337
about four or five kids,
were going to go
276
00:15:01,407 --> 00:15:03,875
to a layup area
and do some painting.
277
00:15:03,943 --> 00:15:07,504
So we went there.
It was night time, it's dark,
there's no moon out,
278
00:15:07,580 --> 00:15:11,641
in dead of winter
and we're waiting and waiting.
279
00:15:11,717 --> 00:15:14,311
Finally we hear a little noise
coming up through the bushes
280
00:15:14,386 --> 00:15:17,116
and here come the kids.
There are about 20 kids there.
281
00:15:17,189 --> 00:15:19,123
If you can visualize it,
282
00:15:19,191 --> 00:15:22,024
we're stuck inside the train,
the doors are closed,
283
00:15:22,094 --> 00:15:24,426
the kids are on the outside
and they're painting away.
284
00:15:24,496 --> 00:15:27,158
And the fumes
from the aerosol cans
are coming up,
285
00:15:27,232 --> 00:15:30,360
seeping under the door
getting into our nostrils.
We're getting dizzy.
286
00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:34,099
We're ready to pass out
and we're saying to ourselves,
"We better do something now
287
00:15:34,173 --> 00:15:36,767
or it's gonna be too late.
We'll have to go to a hospital."
288
00:15:36,842 --> 00:15:39,436
We open the doors, jump down.
We grab two or three kids.
289
00:15:39,511 --> 00:15:41,445
We let it be known to them
at the time
290
00:15:41,513 --> 00:15:44,539
that we want the rest
of the people to give us a call.
291
00:15:44,617 --> 00:15:46,551
And we gave them our number.
292
00:15:46,619 --> 00:15:49,588
The next day, the phone
was constantly ringing
off the hook,
293
00:15:49,655 --> 00:15:51,850
just waiting
to just about surrender.
294
00:15:51,924 --> 00:15:54,518
I know where you live,
I'm gonna pick you up
sooner or later,
295
00:15:54,593 --> 00:15:57,391
might as well give yourself up.
They're well known for that.
296
00:15:57,463 --> 00:15:59,897
What gives you away
is ink in your hands,
297
00:15:59,965 --> 00:16:01,830
if you're doing
insides, right?
298
00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:05,131
So you would try to-- like you
would try to talk it out.
299
00:16:05,204 --> 00:16:07,536
"No, like I dropped
something in the track,
300
00:16:07,606 --> 00:16:09,665
and I went down there
to get it," and all that.
301
00:16:09,742 --> 00:16:11,801
You're trying to keep
your hands in your pocket,
302
00:16:11,877 --> 00:16:14,744
not show your hands.
Then he'll tell you,
"Let me see your hands."
303
00:16:14,813 --> 00:16:17,748
When you show your hands,
if they're inked up
304
00:16:17,816 --> 00:16:20,182
they got an arrest
right there for graffiti.
305
00:16:20,252 --> 00:16:22,243
It's up to him.
He can comply,
306
00:16:22,321 --> 00:16:24,516
or he doesn't
have to comply.
307
00:16:24,590 --> 00:16:27,582
He can come with me,
or he doesn't have to come
with me.
308
00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:29,890
One way or another,
he's going to come,
with me.
309
00:16:29,962 --> 00:16:32,590
I have a job to do.
He has fun to do...
310
00:16:32,665 --> 00:16:35,600
doing his trains.
I have a job to do.
311
00:16:35,668 --> 00:16:37,761
Unfortunately,
I don't think
312
00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:40,498
they have anything to fear
from the courts.
313
00:16:40,572 --> 00:16:42,506
They have to fear
the system itself.
314
00:16:42,574 --> 00:16:45,805
The train system.
It's dangerous, very dangerous
out there.
315
00:16:45,878 --> 00:16:47,937
The courts are backlogged
316
00:16:48,013 --> 00:16:51,608
with such numbers
of violent crime.
317
00:16:51,684 --> 00:16:54,812
Graffiti, itself,
is not a violent crime.
318
00:16:54,887 --> 00:16:57,515
It's not a crime
against a person.
It's against property.
319
00:16:57,589 --> 00:17:00,422
And it has to take--
it has to sit on
the back burner.
320
00:17:00,492 --> 00:17:02,084
They know the yards,
and the layups.
321
00:17:02,161 --> 00:17:04,129
They know the system.
322
00:17:11,370 --> 00:17:13,668
( trains rolling )
323
00:17:24,717 --> 00:17:27,652
Usually I do my pieces
in between the lanes,
if anything.
324
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,315
You only got a four-foot
distance in-between.
325
00:17:31,390 --> 00:17:34,723
You gotta stand on one foot
on one train, one leg
on the other train.
326
00:17:34,793 --> 00:17:38,320
And it's kinda hard to...
327
00:17:38,397 --> 00:17:40,331
envision the whole piece
328
00:17:40,399 --> 00:17:42,560
between four feet,
just to stand back.
329
00:17:42,634 --> 00:17:44,659
You gotta get used to it.
330
00:17:44,737 --> 00:17:48,468
Once you're used to it,
you're able to proportion
your pieces to the right size.
331
00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:51,839
All's I know,
it takes anywhere
between 15-20 cans
332
00:17:51,910 --> 00:17:54,435
to do a full car.
333
00:17:54,513 --> 00:17:56,447
I like to color mine
in solid
334
00:17:56,515 --> 00:17:59,814
so I use approximately
20 cans myself.
335
00:17:59,885 --> 00:18:01,978
In the case of doing it
top to bottom,
336
00:18:02,054 --> 00:18:05,387
you can either open a window
and hang on the windows.
337
00:18:05,457 --> 00:18:08,722
Open the door-- you can hang out
the door and fill in the top.
338
00:18:08,794 --> 00:18:12,286
One time I even used one
of those suction cups,
339
00:18:12,364 --> 00:18:15,925
that the glass people
who carry-- you know--
to put in windows.
340
00:18:16,001 --> 00:18:19,368
Put it on there
and suck it on and you hold
onto the window as you paint.
341
00:18:20,606 --> 00:18:24,201
This train I must have
painted... two weeks ago.
342
00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:26,710
Brand new,
they already painted over it.
343
00:18:26,779 --> 00:18:30,010
One solid silver
paint job.
344
00:18:30,082 --> 00:18:32,209
On the other side
they already have--
345
00:18:32,284 --> 00:18:35,253
I have another
piece on the other side,
as a matter of fact.
346
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,811
See, they paint
right over your work.
347
00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:41,758
They leave your work
in the windows.
348
00:18:41,827 --> 00:18:44,728
I hope they're
not buffing no more,
they're just repainting.
349
00:18:46,498 --> 00:18:48,762
Man, this guy used to be
king of the line.
350
00:18:48,834 --> 00:18:53,601
Two years back.
Sly 108, alias known as MC.
351
00:18:57,142 --> 00:19:00,111
I must have been
in this yard in about '75.
352
00:19:00,179 --> 00:19:03,410
'75?
Yeah, '75 sure.
353
00:19:03,482 --> 00:19:07,680
I met Danko, Danko 1,
who was doing the art in here.
354
00:19:07,753 --> 00:19:09,948
At the time,
he was trying to take over.
355
00:19:10,022 --> 00:19:13,321
Again, he didn't quite do it
but that was the first time,
356
00:19:13,392 --> 00:19:15,326
and I got raided
the first time.
357
00:19:15,394 --> 00:19:18,693
Still come back
for more, though.
It's the excitement in it all.
358
00:19:18,764 --> 00:19:21,460
Tony:
What about the art?
359
00:19:21,533 --> 00:19:24,058
I wouldn't say
too much for that.
360
00:19:24,136 --> 00:19:27,663
Just a matter of how many
pieces I could put up.
361
00:19:27,739 --> 00:19:31,300
I really don't-- I really
can't say that it's art.
362
00:19:31,376 --> 00:19:33,936
It's just...
363
00:19:34,012 --> 00:19:36,572
It just keeps me going.
I don't know what I'm gonna do
364
00:19:36,648 --> 00:19:39,446
after you're not able to go
in the yards anymore.
365
00:19:39,518 --> 00:19:41,850
After they put up
the fences and all.
366
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,946
There's an old guy.
This guy used to be
king of the line,
367
00:19:45,023 --> 00:19:46,957
Puma 107.
368
00:19:47,025 --> 00:19:51,018
Right before--
No, him and Sly 108
were about the same.
369
00:19:53,198 --> 00:19:55,132
Here's another piece.
370
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,136
Two of my buddies.
This is a PJ/Sin.
It's kind of old.
371
00:19:59,204 --> 00:20:01,138
They cleaned the windows.
372
00:20:01,206 --> 00:20:03,766
Dripping from the acid.
373
00:20:03,842 --> 00:20:06,276
Comet...
374
00:20:06,345 --> 00:20:08,506
painted over PJ.
375
00:20:08,580 --> 00:20:11,572
That's what happens, they don't
last more than maybe a week,
376
00:20:11,650 --> 00:20:14,084
if the city
doesn't get them.
377
00:20:33,839 --> 00:20:37,036
It would be so cool
if you could just...
378
00:20:37,109 --> 00:20:39,441
get a graffiti writer,
379
00:20:39,511 --> 00:20:43,106
or a young graffiti writer,
who you think would
be into it.
380
00:20:43,181 --> 00:20:45,376
Or you just think...
381
00:20:45,450 --> 00:20:49,181
he'll be writing
for a number of years,
382
00:20:49,254 --> 00:20:51,882
and just film him
through his stages
383
00:20:51,957 --> 00:20:56,155
of like, you know,
step one, and step two,
384
00:20:56,228 --> 00:20:58,458
or whatever stages
he goes through.
385
00:21:06,672 --> 00:21:10,472
Dondi:
Just him on the way to
the yard that night, you know?
386
00:21:10,542 --> 00:21:15,138
Then, like, him looking
for that first piece.
387
00:21:19,584 --> 00:21:22,985
To have that kind
of documentation
388
00:21:23,055 --> 00:21:26,115
of a graffiti writer.
389
00:21:30,762 --> 00:21:34,493
That would be, like,
a real good film, actually.
390
00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:39,953
It starts in darkness.
391
00:21:42,763 --> 00:21:45,698
That's partly romance
but it's true.
392
00:21:45,766 --> 00:21:47,700
It starts,
it gets made,
393
00:21:47,768 --> 00:21:49,702
the work of art
happens in darkness.
394
00:21:49,770 --> 00:21:51,761
Then it bursts
into the light.
395
00:21:51,838 --> 00:21:53,829
And then,
we see it, right?
396
00:21:53,907 --> 00:21:58,003
Everybody sees it,
hates it, loves it.
397
00:21:58,078 --> 00:21:59,875
Is stunned by it
in one way or another.
398
00:21:59,947 --> 00:22:02,006
And that's
kind of the feeling
399
00:22:02,082 --> 00:22:04,243
I wanted to express
at the beginning
of the film.
400
00:22:04,318 --> 00:22:06,479
Henry is a very
low-key person.
401
00:22:06,553 --> 00:22:09,181
Henry's wife, Kathy,
is an actress
402
00:22:09,256 --> 00:22:11,190
and a very
dramatic person.
403
00:22:11,258 --> 00:22:13,556
I remember we were
having dinner one night.
404
00:22:13,627 --> 00:22:15,925
And we'd been
kicking this around.
405
00:22:15,996 --> 00:22:17,930
What would this film
be about?
406
00:22:17,998 --> 00:22:19,932
And Henry was saying,
"It really is--
407
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,934
there's rap music
and there's..."
408
00:22:22,002 --> 00:22:24,470
We kept thinking,
"Where are the boundaries?
409
00:22:24,538 --> 00:22:27,939
How do we--
410
00:22:28,008 --> 00:22:31,409
how do we write the proposal
to raise the money for this?"
411
00:22:31,478 --> 00:22:33,036
And Kathy...
412
00:22:33,113 --> 00:22:35,013
launched
into this incredible,
413
00:22:35,082 --> 00:22:37,778
unbelievable aria.
414
00:22:37,851 --> 00:22:40,081
I still think of it
as an aria.
415
00:22:40,153 --> 00:22:41,984
About...
416
00:22:42,055 --> 00:22:43,989
the drama of this.
417
00:22:44,057 --> 00:22:46,116
Going into the tunnels,
going into the layups.
418
00:22:46,193 --> 00:22:49,651
Risking your life
to paint a whole car
in the middle of the night.
419
00:22:49,730 --> 00:22:51,721
And I thought,
"Yeah, it's an opera.
420
00:22:51,798 --> 00:22:53,732
That's what
it really is."
421
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,734
The music makes it
an opera.
422
00:22:55,802 --> 00:22:57,736
And the dance
makes it an opera.
423
00:22:57,804 --> 00:23:00,398
This is theater.
And it's theater
that's happening...
424
00:23:00,474 --> 00:23:02,635
in real life,
425
00:23:02,709 --> 00:23:04,643
in my city.
426
00:23:04,711 --> 00:23:06,975
And then I really felt it
as a film.
427
00:23:07,047 --> 00:23:09,481
We all--
we may have forgotten
428
00:23:09,549 --> 00:23:11,744
what terrible condition
the subways were in,
429
00:23:11,818 --> 00:23:14,787
along with the rest
of the city and its
infrastructure.
430
00:23:14,855 --> 00:23:16,982
The subways were
a garbage dump,
essentially.
431
00:23:17,057 --> 00:23:21,619
It was a vacuum
of attention
432
00:23:21,695 --> 00:23:24,892
on the part
of the civic authorities
of the city.
433
00:23:24,965 --> 00:23:26,956
And you could argue
434
00:23:27,034 --> 00:23:31,027
that what graffiti
artists and writers
and taggers were doing
435
00:23:31,104 --> 00:23:34,335
was they were
filling this vacuum
the way they knew how.
436
00:23:34,408 --> 00:23:37,571
And in the course of doing it,
discovered a capacity
in themselves
437
00:23:37,644 --> 00:23:40,238
to make something
that was transcendent.
438
00:23:40,313 --> 00:23:43,510
I didn't only want
rap music in the film.
439
00:23:43,583 --> 00:23:46,484
I didn't only want--
I wanted a lot of that,
440
00:23:46,553 --> 00:23:48,487
but I wanted
another element
441
00:23:48,555 --> 00:23:50,489
that would make it feel
like a movie.
442
00:23:50,557 --> 00:23:52,991
And I had
seen "Excalibur," actually--
443
00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:55,688
John Boorman's--
a couple of years before that.
444
00:23:55,762 --> 00:23:57,696
I had loved the way
he had used Wagner.
445
00:23:57,764 --> 00:24:00,096
( humming )
It was just--
it was marvelous.
446
00:24:00,167 --> 00:24:02,397
So Sam Pollard,
the editor, and l--
447
00:24:02,469 --> 00:24:05,063
we started putting
this opening sequence
together.
448
00:24:05,138 --> 00:24:08,005
And didn't know
if it was going to work.
449
00:24:08,075 --> 00:24:11,374
Sam had a class
and he was teaching them
film editing.
450
00:24:11,445 --> 00:24:14,005
So he brought these kids in
when I wasn't there,
451
00:24:14,081 --> 00:24:16,311
and when I showed up,
he said,
452
00:24:16,383 --> 00:24:18,317
"Tony, I had these kids
in here. "
453
00:24:18,385 --> 00:24:21,183
I said, "Yes. "
He said, "I showed them
what we're doing. "
454
00:24:21,254 --> 00:24:23,552
I said,
"What'd they say?"
455
00:24:23,623 --> 00:24:26,353
He said, "One kid looked
at it and he said 'Excalibur. "'
456
00:24:26,426 --> 00:24:28,986
( laughing )
457
00:24:29,062 --> 00:24:30,996
Oh yeah, that's the music
from "Excalibur."
458
00:24:31,064 --> 00:24:33,464
I though,
"Yeah, exactly.
459
00:24:33,533 --> 00:24:35,524
So to them,
now it's a movie."
460
00:24:35,602 --> 00:24:38,298
Narrator:
In the 1970s,
New York graffiti,
461
00:24:38,371 --> 00:24:40,965
rapping and breaking
became the prime expression...
462
00:24:41,041 --> 00:24:43,202
Tony:
A friend of mine was
a documentarian.
463
00:24:43,276 --> 00:24:45,210
He saw the film
and he said,
464
00:24:45,278 --> 00:24:47,212
"God, you've done things
with music
465
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,373
that nobody's ever done
in a documentary before.
466
00:24:49,449 --> 00:24:51,974
It's astounding
and amazing.
467
00:24:54,321 --> 00:24:56,653
But that awful narration,"
he said.
468
00:24:56,723 --> 00:24:58,987
Yeah, you know--
469
00:24:59,059 --> 00:25:00,993
How could you
do that?
470
00:25:01,061 --> 00:25:03,256
The other thing about
the narration
471
00:25:03,330 --> 00:25:05,264
is that he sounds enough
like me, that--
472
00:25:05,332 --> 00:25:07,266
Really?
473
00:25:07,334 --> 00:25:09,268
I keep--
people assume--
474
00:25:09,336 --> 00:25:11,463
lots and lots of people
assume that it's me.
475
00:25:11,538 --> 00:25:15,133
I moved to New York
in the end of 1972,
476
00:25:15,208 --> 00:25:17,142
I was a sculptor,
477
00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:20,202
and I think
I was on the verge
of a career change
478
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,305
that I wasn't
at all conscious of.
479
00:25:22,382 --> 00:25:25,510
These extraordinary cars
are coming through
the stations,
480
00:25:25,585 --> 00:25:27,610
and I was commuting
every day.
481
00:25:27,687 --> 00:25:30,884
I couldn't wait
to get on the train
and see what was going on.
482
00:25:30,957 --> 00:25:32,822
I thought, "Wow,
this would be great
483
00:25:32,893 --> 00:25:34,724
to try to take
pictures of this.
484
00:25:34,795 --> 00:25:36,626
Somebody should be
documenting it.
485
00:25:36,696 --> 00:25:38,630
And the pictures
that I took
486
00:25:38,698 --> 00:25:41,394
were these segmented
pictures
487
00:25:41,468 --> 00:25:44,528
which I then made
a composite out of
in my studio afterwards,
488
00:25:44,604 --> 00:25:46,538
and I put them
in sections.
489
00:25:46,606 --> 00:25:49,234
As a sculptor,
one of the things
I had to do all the time
490
00:25:49,309 --> 00:25:52,142
was create sites
for proposals.
491
00:25:52,212 --> 00:25:54,476
And you make
your little model,
492
00:25:54,548 --> 00:25:56,277
and you put it
in a diorama,
493
00:25:56,349 --> 00:25:58,476
and you create
the environment around it
494
00:25:58,552 --> 00:26:01,282
by going up to the site
and taking pictures,
495
00:26:01,354 --> 00:26:04,152
panoramic pictures,
and splicing them together.
496
00:26:04,224 --> 00:26:06,749
So, it just came
totally natural to me.
497
00:26:06,827 --> 00:26:08,852
Take a picture, jump.
Take a picture, jump.
498
00:26:08,929 --> 00:26:11,454
Take a picture, jump.
This one I took five.
499
00:26:11,531 --> 00:26:13,726
I would get information.
500
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,496
I would be
told the next day,
501
00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:18,128
when somebody did a piece,
502
00:26:18,205 --> 00:26:19,832
I'd get it
on my answering machine.
503
00:26:19,906 --> 00:26:21,339
Yo, Henry, this is Lask.
504
00:26:21,408 --> 00:26:23,399
I busted out a rooftop
on the 6 line.
505
00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:26,070
- Bright colors...
- That's how I would know
where to go.
506
00:26:26,146 --> 00:26:28,080
I would get there
right away.
507
00:26:28,148 --> 00:26:30,275
It really increased
my chances of getting it,
508
00:26:30,350 --> 00:26:32,181
because it's a big system.
509
00:26:32,252 --> 00:26:35,153
If you go up randomly
waiting for trains,
510
00:26:35,222 --> 00:26:37,554
you spend all day
and you might not
get anything.
511
00:26:37,624 --> 00:26:40,957
So if you know where to go
and what line it's on,
it really helps.
512
00:26:41,027 --> 00:26:43,120
I had taken pictures
for about three years,
513
00:26:43,196 --> 00:26:44,720
before I ever met--
514
00:26:44,798 --> 00:26:46,766
consciously met
a graffiti writer.
515
00:26:46,833 --> 00:26:48,767
I think it was '79,
516
00:26:48,835 --> 00:26:51,633
another kid was on the platform
doing the same thing I was.
517
00:26:51,705 --> 00:26:53,866
He was the one who said,
518
00:26:53,940 --> 00:26:57,205
"Go to the writers bench
because all the writers
hang out there. "
519
00:26:57,277 --> 00:26:59,211
For months they thought
I was a cop.
520
00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:01,839
'Cause who else?
Middle-aged white man,
521
00:27:01,915 --> 00:27:03,849
what's he doing...
522
00:27:03,917 --> 00:27:06,317
up on the platforms
taking pictures
of graffiti?
523
00:27:06,386 --> 00:27:09,287
What's he doing
getting to know
graffiti writers,
524
00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:12,189
if it wasn't
for a major bust?
525
00:27:12,259 --> 00:27:15,126
Intelligence,
and then getting everybody
together in one spot
526
00:27:15,195 --> 00:27:17,254
and then calling in
the troops.
527
00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:20,128
I was doing the fill-in.
I was like the toy.
528
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,134
This was
the apprenticeship.
529
00:27:22,202 --> 00:27:24,170
You'd go out
with an 18-year-old
530
00:27:24,237 --> 00:27:26,205
master of graffiti art.
531
00:27:26,273 --> 00:27:28,207
And that way you would
learn to paint.
532
00:27:28,275 --> 00:27:31,039
After photography
came along,
533
00:27:31,111 --> 00:27:34,512
and began to be used,
especially with my pictures--
534
00:27:34,581 --> 00:27:38,017
I had such a big collection
of a lot of the masters' work--
535
00:27:38,084 --> 00:27:41,520
kids would come to my studio,
and they would be able
to sit and study it.
536
00:27:41,588 --> 00:27:44,887
So it changed the way
the whole process took place.
537
00:27:44,958 --> 00:27:48,325
That's why we talk
about Case and his
camouflaging the letters.
538
00:27:48,395 --> 00:27:51,796
He was determined
to make it so complex,
539
00:27:51,865 --> 00:27:53,799
that even if
you had a camera--
540
00:27:53,867 --> 00:27:56,461
I don't think you'll
even be able to read it.
541
00:27:56,536 --> 00:27:58,436
( laughter )
542
00:27:58,505 --> 00:28:01,997
Koch, Ravitch, and Cap
gave us the plot of the film.
543
00:28:02,075 --> 00:28:04,669
It didn't have a plot
up to that point.
544
00:28:04,744 --> 00:28:08,305
It was just a survey.
I had no idea how it would
come together.
545
00:28:08,381 --> 00:28:10,576
That was fresh.
It was a brand new burner.
546
00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:12,618
It only ran for two days.
547
00:28:12,686 --> 00:28:15,052
He didn't even give it
a chance to run on the line.
548
00:28:15,121 --> 00:28:17,055
Just like, "Pahl"
549
00:28:17,123 --> 00:28:20,024
After one of these
interviews with somebody
complaining about Cap,
550
00:28:20,093 --> 00:28:22,789
Tony would say,
"We can't use this,
551
00:28:22,862 --> 00:28:24,796
unless we have Cap.
552
00:28:24,864 --> 00:28:26,832
This is meaningless,
unless we have Cap.
553
00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:28,993
It's just one side
of a hand clapping.
554
00:28:29,069 --> 00:28:31,094
We need to have Cap."
555
00:28:31,171 --> 00:28:33,139
And so I'm rolling
my eyes I'm going,
556
00:28:33,206 --> 00:28:35,140
"Oh my God.
You know what that means?"
557
00:28:35,208 --> 00:28:38,177
Because I know
what that means.
558
00:28:38,244 --> 00:28:40,508
That's the last thing--
within the subculture--
559
00:28:40,580 --> 00:28:42,548
you want to do is
give him fame.
560
00:28:42,615 --> 00:28:44,515
So, I was against it.
561
00:28:44,584 --> 00:28:47,553
And I was taking
the side of the writers,
562
00:28:47,620 --> 00:28:49,884
and not even mentioning
it to the writers.
563
00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:52,322
Were you also concerned
about the anthropologist
564
00:28:52,392 --> 00:28:55,293
intervening in the activity
of the culture?
565
00:28:55,362 --> 00:28:57,922
No, I'm not that pure.
566
00:28:57,998 --> 00:29:01,263
I was intrigued by Cap, too,
because I never met Cap.
567
00:29:01,334 --> 00:29:04,394
I knew people who knew him,
but I'd never met him.
568
00:29:04,471 --> 00:29:06,871
I gave in, basically.
569
00:29:06,940 --> 00:29:10,171
So, through the grapevine
I knew how to get to him,
570
00:29:10,243 --> 00:29:13,610
he had friends who were
playing a double game, too.
571
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,774
Pretending not to know him
but who knew him
572
00:29:16,850 --> 00:29:18,818
and were actually
friends of his.
573
00:29:18,885 --> 00:29:20,876
Friends who shall
be nameless.
574
00:29:20,954 --> 00:29:23,320
Friends who shall
forever remain nameless.
575
00:29:23,390 --> 00:29:27,019
So through
these connections,
576
00:29:27,093 --> 00:29:29,027
I found him,
577
00:29:29,095 --> 00:29:32,394
and he was more than happy
to be a part of this.
578
00:29:32,465 --> 00:29:35,229
But he said
from the get-go,
579
00:29:35,301 --> 00:29:38,202
he said, "You can't
film my face."
580
00:29:38,271 --> 00:29:41,035
I'm telling Tony he's going
to wear a ski mask,
581
00:29:41,107 --> 00:29:43,632
and Tony's going,
"No, it's not working.
582
00:29:43,710 --> 00:29:46,406
It's not going to work.
He can't wear a ski mask."
583
00:29:46,479 --> 00:29:49,380
But we have to do it anyway,
because it's better
than nothing.
584
00:29:49,449 --> 00:29:51,383
So, on the appointed day,
585
00:29:51,451 --> 00:29:55,046
he comes and...
no ski mask.
586
00:29:55,121 --> 00:29:57,817
And when I brought it up,
he said "Don't worry
about it. "
587
00:29:57,891 --> 00:30:00,257
Cap:
People don't know
what I look like until now,
588
00:30:00,326 --> 00:30:02,260
till they start going
to the movies.
589
00:30:02,328 --> 00:30:05,263
They're gonna see my face.
Big deal.
590
00:30:05,331 --> 00:30:07,765
I'm--
I'm glad I got Cap.
591
00:30:07,834 --> 00:30:11,600
I paid a little price,
but I'm glad I got Cap.
592
00:30:13,373 --> 00:30:15,500
People still feel
betrayed by it.
593
00:30:15,575 --> 00:30:16,974
I get that
all the time.
594
00:30:18,078 --> 00:30:21,707
We knew that it was
an amazing phenomenon,
595
00:30:21,781 --> 00:30:24,215
and we knew that the film
that we were making
596
00:30:24,284 --> 00:30:27,310
was showing
the world something,
597
00:30:27,387 --> 00:30:30,652
that the world
generally wasn't aware of.
598
00:30:30,723 --> 00:30:33,487
That this would have
some kind of impact.
599
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,996
I don't thinks we had
the sort of vision
600
00:30:37,063 --> 00:30:40,863
to understand
the extent of it,
what it would become.
601
00:30:40,934 --> 00:30:42,902
Because of the photographs,
602
00:30:42,969 --> 00:30:46,427
it's been like a visa
to another world
603
00:30:46,506 --> 00:30:50,237
that never in a million years
would I have gotten into.
604
00:30:51,544 --> 00:30:55,981
Those photographs gave me
this incredible access,
605
00:30:56,049 --> 00:30:58,381
to meet the most
extraordinary people.
606
00:30:58,451 --> 00:31:00,510
It's a gift to me
607
00:31:02,355 --> 00:31:04,983
that because of Henry,
I got to make this film.
608
00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:09,328
There's so many paradoxes
associated with graffiti,
609
00:31:09,395 --> 00:31:12,330
about whether it's
good or bad for society,
610
00:31:12,465 --> 00:31:14,160
good or bad
for kids who do it.
611
00:31:14,234 --> 00:31:18,034
It's a tangle that can
never be untangled
or reconciled.
612
00:31:18,104 --> 00:31:21,164
And that to me--
finally, those paradoxes
613
00:31:21,241 --> 00:31:24,472
are the most fascinating thing
of all about this project--
614
00:31:24,544 --> 00:31:27,945
that finally there is
no judgment that can be made.
615
00:31:28,014 --> 00:31:30,005
It just is.
616
00:31:30,083 --> 00:31:32,916
And the "isness"
of it is...
617
00:31:32,986 --> 00:31:34,954
its poetry
and its beauty.
618
00:31:36,858 --> 00:31:39,326
"Style Wars" had
a very strong concept.
619
00:31:39,394 --> 00:31:42,795
There was a little question
about how fair it was
going to be.
620
00:31:42,864 --> 00:31:45,458
Did you want to present
both sides of the issue?
621
00:31:45,534 --> 00:31:47,832
I always remember,
very distinctly, Kase.
622
00:31:47,903 --> 00:31:51,066
and I remember the material
of Kase walking into
the projects.
623
00:31:51,139 --> 00:31:54,302
You know, yelling out
to the people,
624
00:31:54,376 --> 00:31:56,037
and then the camera pans up,
625
00:31:56,111 --> 00:31:58,375
and then we're inside
looking at him
626
00:31:58,447 --> 00:32:01,314
as he's creating one
of his masterworks and stuff.
627
00:32:01,383 --> 00:32:04,352
and for me, growing up in
East Harlem, in the projects,
628
00:32:04,419 --> 00:32:05,613
I connected.
629
00:32:05,687 --> 00:32:07,780
Kase and that group,
they really stuck out to me.
630
00:32:07,856 --> 00:32:10,450
Kanefsky:
That was a great scene.
One of the few scenes
631
00:32:10,525 --> 00:32:12,686
that cut very quickly
and very easily.
632
00:32:12,761 --> 00:32:14,888
Well... Tony had me
rework it a few times.
633
00:32:14,963 --> 00:32:16,555
Tony has everything
reworked!
634
00:32:16,631 --> 00:32:19,099
What happened with the guy
with his mother
635
00:32:19,167 --> 00:32:22,000
- that we interwove throughout?
- Kanefsky: That was
incredible.
636
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:25,267
That's one of the big
structural things that
we came up with
637
00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:28,104
- which worked beautifully,
but it took...
- A long time.
638
00:32:28,176 --> 00:32:30,269
Should it be in front
of this scene or behind it?
639
00:32:30,345 --> 00:32:31,937
Should it be in front,
or behind--?
640
00:32:32,013 --> 00:32:34,174
Mary, who started
as an apprentice,
641
00:32:34,249 --> 00:32:37,013
by the time she
left the film--
642
00:32:37,085 --> 00:32:39,417
which was approximately
one year of working,
643
00:32:39,488 --> 00:32:41,353
roughly from promo on--
644
00:32:41,423 --> 00:32:42,788
was an editor.
645
00:32:42,858 --> 00:32:45,349
I love the Wagner. I love
when the trains come out
646
00:32:45,427 --> 00:32:48,021
and the music is
oh, so powerful and big
647
00:32:48,096 --> 00:32:49,961
and monstrous.
648
00:32:50,031 --> 00:32:51,623
And then that cut,
649
00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:53,600
that cut
to the hip-hop music,
650
00:32:53,668 --> 00:32:57,195
it's fantastic.
That's one of the great
music cuts I ever did.
651
00:32:57,272 --> 00:32:59,206
It was Tony's idea.
It was a great cut.
652
00:32:59,274 --> 00:33:01,174
"Pump, pump, pump it up,
pump me up."
653
00:33:01,243 --> 00:33:05,577
After the old gentleman says,
"It's in his nom de plume--"
"I'm a wanderer. "
654
00:33:05,647 --> 00:33:08,445
We tried so many things
in terms of speed and tempo
655
00:33:08,517 --> 00:33:09,848
and changing music
656
00:33:09,918 --> 00:33:12,352
and cutting different phrases
out of music and stuff
657
00:33:12,420 --> 00:33:13,887
and bringing them together.
658
00:33:13,955 --> 00:33:15,946
There are no rules
that you can follow,
659
00:33:16,024 --> 00:33:19,858
and that's one of the reasons
I like the independent
documentary film.
660
00:33:19,928 --> 00:33:22,226
We would cut something--
I would cut something--
661
00:33:22,297 --> 00:33:24,629
and Victor would re-cut it,
and Mary might re-cut it.
662
00:33:24,699 --> 00:33:26,997
Then it would come back to me
and I'd cut it again.
663
00:33:27,068 --> 00:33:30,469
We went to lunch and I said,
"What do we do now that
the money's run out?"
664
00:33:30,539 --> 00:33:32,598
- Keep going!
- Otherwise we didn't
have a film.
665
00:33:32,674 --> 00:33:35,609
If you don't have a film,
why did we start in
the first place?
666
00:33:35,677 --> 00:33:37,508
When you see the result,
667
00:33:37,579 --> 00:33:39,604
when you see
the reaction to it,
668
00:33:39,681 --> 00:33:41,774
if you go flash forward
19 years later--
669
00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:45,183
and I have students
who I advise come to my class,
670
00:33:45,253 --> 00:33:48,086
and come to me for advisement
and they'll say...
671
00:33:49,891 --> 00:33:51,722
"Did you do
that film 'Style Wars'?"
672
00:33:51,793 --> 00:33:55,058
I say, "Yeah," and they say,
"Wow, that's one of the great
documentaries."
673
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:57,598
Even my sons, who don't
usually look at my films,
674
00:33:57,666 --> 00:33:59,725
they like that film.
675
00:33:59,801 --> 00:34:03,202
Tony:
What was the biggest
struggle that you had?
676
00:34:03,271 --> 00:34:05,296
The biggest struggle
was always you, Tony.
677
00:34:05,373 --> 00:34:06,601
( laughing )
55067
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