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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,676 --> 00:00:05,236 By creating a film of this type... 2 00:00:08,048 --> 00:00:10,642 it's my personal... 3 00:00:10,717 --> 00:00:14,881 and virtually undocumentable feeling 4 00:00:14,954 --> 00:00:19,653 that this is only going to, again, cause people to say, 5 00:00:19,726 --> 00:00:21,887 "Well, gee, look at that design. 6 00:00:21,961 --> 00:00:23,622 I can do better than that." 7 00:00:23,697 --> 00:00:25,494 And they're going to try. 8 00:00:25,565 --> 00:00:27,123 And that's what we don't want. 9 00:00:39,713 --> 00:00:41,840 Case: That's why I'm letting you know now, 10 00:00:41,915 --> 00:00:43,439 I'm feeling the vibes. 11 00:00:43,516 --> 00:00:45,848 I know how this shit is, with the program-- 12 00:00:45,919 --> 00:00:47,853 it don't pressure me. 13 00:00:47,921 --> 00:00:49,889 This shit is all over with, to me. 14 00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:51,924 I don't want it to seem like in the show 15 00:00:51,991 --> 00:00:53,891 like I still do it or none of that. 16 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,861 It's just I was one of the olden brothers from way back, 17 00:00:56,930 --> 00:00:59,524 maybe years-- and knowing what was up with it. 18 00:00:59,599 --> 00:01:04,627 That way I would keep my reprancy or discrepancy process real righteously right. 19 00:01:06,506 --> 00:01:09,031 Case: I don't even think about this no more, man. 20 00:01:09,109 --> 00:01:11,236 'Cause you see how it look now anyway, right? 21 00:01:11,311 --> 00:01:14,144 That's what I'm saying, you know? 22 00:01:14,214 --> 00:01:17,206 Just don't let nobody know it, till they see it for they self. 23 00:01:17,283 --> 00:01:19,342 That's what I'm saying. When they see ours-- 24 00:01:19,419 --> 00:01:21,512 our whole car's always crushing, you know? 25 00:01:21,588 --> 00:01:23,613 We is the monsters, know what I'm saying? 26 00:01:23,690 --> 00:01:26,386 - Always the kings of this line. - Stuff like this here. 27 00:01:26,459 --> 00:01:28,393 We would have no problem. You know. 28 00:01:28,461 --> 00:01:30,452 - Burning that up. - Word, man. 29 00:01:31,731 --> 00:01:33,756 They always came to me with paint, whatever, 30 00:01:33,833 --> 00:01:36,097 and say, "Yo, Case, man, hook me up this and that. 31 00:01:36,169 --> 00:01:38,467 Hook me up with style." I did it, I'd get 'em style. 32 00:01:38,538 --> 00:01:41,632 I had so much style, from having so much spark and charisma, 33 00:01:41,708 --> 00:01:45,303 wisdom and knowledge plus understanding behind it, you know? 34 00:01:45,378 --> 00:01:47,312 They came to me for "Style Wise" 35 00:01:47,380 --> 00:01:50,281 and I didn't mind generating my generosity, you know, so I did it. 36 00:01:50,350 --> 00:01:53,581 I felt as though if I did this it's like doing a good thing 37 00:01:53,653 --> 00:01:56,622 in favoritism to myself as far as good luck-wise or whatever, 38 00:01:56,689 --> 00:01:58,122 you know? So I done it. 39 00:01:59,192 --> 00:02:02,218 See how I'm always doing my computers, right? Like connectors. 40 00:02:02,295 --> 00:02:05,196 See how I got the smoothness camouflaged like? 41 00:02:05,265 --> 00:02:07,062 See how that "A" look like camouflage, 42 00:02:07,133 --> 00:02:10,000 real neat and dipping through there with the "S" and things? 43 00:02:10,069 --> 00:02:12,128 You know that shows you the odd-even thing. 44 00:02:12,205 --> 00:02:14,230 - It balances out. - Yeah. 45 00:02:14,307 --> 00:02:16,741 There go the Fonz. Look at the Fonz. 46 00:02:16,810 --> 00:02:20,246 - Word. There you go. - It's the Fonz. 47 00:02:20,313 --> 00:02:22,838 Look at that nigger. That nigger loves the movie. 48 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:25,976 Hey, you know it's us, The Cold Crush. 49 00:02:26,052 --> 00:02:28,111 You said something right there, that's right. 50 00:02:28,188 --> 00:02:30,247 Tony: That's the main thing? Breaking, too? 51 00:02:30,323 --> 00:02:32,382 Yeah, B-Boying, you know? 52 00:02:32,458 --> 00:02:34,688 That's what I'm saying, the Rock Steady Crew. 53 00:02:34,761 --> 00:02:37,491 Yeah it come out like, from the streets, you know? 54 00:02:37,564 --> 00:02:39,998 People hanging out, they ain't got nothing to do. 55 00:02:40,066 --> 00:02:42,728 I remember, like, before that... 56 00:02:42,802 --> 00:02:47,000 hip-hop stuff started out, nigger's banging on the mailbox. 57 00:02:47,073 --> 00:02:49,769 You know, like Hard-Hands Barretto. 58 00:02:49,843 --> 00:02:51,367 You know Hard-Hands Barretto? 59 00:02:51,444 --> 00:02:54,311 He's a Latin star now. He started out in the ghetto too, 60 00:02:54,380 --> 00:02:57,816 playing on garbage cans. Well, we used to bang on the mailbox, 61 00:02:57,884 --> 00:03:00,079 boom, bang, bang, you know, and start rhyming. 62 00:03:00,153 --> 00:03:02,144 And that's how Flash and all these niggers-- 63 00:03:02,222 --> 00:03:04,690 they come out to the park with a little DJ set, 64 00:03:04,757 --> 00:03:06,952 and now they're on the radio and stuff like that. 65 00:03:07,026 --> 00:03:09,586 And that's why, you know, us graffiti artists, 66 00:03:09,662 --> 00:03:11,596 now we're trying to get up there, you know? 67 00:03:11,664 --> 00:03:15,065 Still, we ain't getting nowhere, but we're getting a little recognition now. 68 00:03:15,134 --> 00:03:17,466 Case: 'Cause we stopped writing, that's why. 69 00:03:17,537 --> 00:03:19,664 It's like, you know, we know our potential. 70 00:03:19,739 --> 00:03:22,606 We done got fame, you know, kick the game and all type things. 71 00:03:22,675 --> 00:03:25,235 It wasn't no thing, we just did it and got it over with, 72 00:03:25,311 --> 00:03:27,245 you know? That's all there was to it. 73 00:03:27,313 --> 00:03:30,612 Now it be about women, cash, money and all type things, you know. 74 00:03:35,455 --> 00:03:38,015 Oh, styles? I just-- I write the way I write. 75 00:03:38,091 --> 00:03:41,026 I got my own style, that's all. 76 00:03:41,094 --> 00:03:43,289 - Henry: Where'd you get it? - I made it up. 77 00:03:45,265 --> 00:03:47,597 But it looks something like other graffiti styles. 78 00:03:47,667 --> 00:03:50,795 - No, it looks like my style. - I know it looks like your style, but-- 79 00:03:50,870 --> 00:03:53,134 Cameraman: Hold it, hold it. Cut, cut. 80 00:03:56,175 --> 00:03:58,643 - Cameraman: Turning? - Sound man: Yeah. Go. 81 00:03:58,711 --> 00:04:01,009 Henry: John, where did you get your style? 82 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,878 I developed it, you know? I didn't get it from nobody. 83 00:04:03,950 --> 00:04:05,975 Didn't you look at other graffiti? 84 00:04:06,052 --> 00:04:09,613 Yeah, but just to read it, not to copy their style. 85 00:04:09,689 --> 00:04:11,782 And these ridiculous fights that they have about 86 00:04:11,858 --> 00:04:15,521 somebody crossing them out, which is absolutely ridiculous. 87 00:04:15,595 --> 00:04:19,395 Yeah. If you mess with us, yeah, of course. 88 00:04:19,465 --> 00:04:22,457 Nobody walks around with machine-guns in their pockets. 89 00:04:22,535 --> 00:04:26,767 If you mess with us, just like regular people, we're gonna defend ourselves. 90 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,206 And if you mess with us real, we know we're gonna come looking for you, 91 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:33,074 and we're gonna get you too. We're gonna get you. 92 00:04:34,113 --> 00:04:36,138 ( sighs ) 93 00:04:36,215 --> 00:04:38,877 You want to film this fist-fight we're getting ready to have? 94 00:04:38,952 --> 00:04:40,920 Is that what it is? 95 00:04:49,162 --> 00:04:51,153 I guess it's pretty much like 96 00:04:51,230 --> 00:04:54,199 anything I would do on a train, I would do on canvas, 97 00:04:54,267 --> 00:04:57,395 or whatever I choose to paint on. 98 00:04:57,470 --> 00:04:59,370 I'm still using spray-paint. 99 00:04:59,439 --> 00:05:02,408 I'm still using the same basic technique 100 00:05:02,475 --> 00:05:06,036 as painting trains-- just about. 101 00:05:06,112 --> 00:05:08,546 I think it's pretty much the same thing, 102 00:05:08,614 --> 00:05:11,048 it's just been scaled down much smaller. 103 00:05:21,594 --> 00:05:24,188 - Dondi: Let's go to work. - Marisol: I hear you. 104 00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:39,039 Marisol: This shit is bad. 105 00:05:41,180 --> 00:05:45,139 And this one's called "Sands of York." 106 00:05:45,218 --> 00:05:47,413 It's... 107 00:05:47,487 --> 00:05:49,614 it's a letter "B." 108 00:05:49,689 --> 00:05:51,623 There's a painting under this 109 00:05:51,691 --> 00:05:54,524 that I went over, that I did in 1980. 110 00:05:54,594 --> 00:05:57,529 I didn't actually like it. It was called "I Love New York." 111 00:05:57,597 --> 00:05:59,758 I decided to paint this over it. 112 00:05:59,832 --> 00:06:02,198 I like it much better now. 113 00:06:02,268 --> 00:06:04,759 I can scale down letters, like pretty easy. 114 00:06:04,837 --> 00:06:07,067 I did pieces probably... 115 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:09,335 almost this size on a train with Aaron. 116 00:06:09,409 --> 00:06:12,867 We were doing some real small pieces, 117 00:06:12,945 --> 00:06:15,277 looked like they were chiseled into the subways 118 00:06:15,348 --> 00:06:18,044 because of the way I had the 3-Ds going down. 119 00:06:18,117 --> 00:06:20,745 Actually way below the window. 120 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:24,722 I have really no problem in scaling them down to canvas. 121 00:06:24,791 --> 00:06:27,123 Compared to a piece on a train 122 00:06:27,193 --> 00:06:31,095 this is like-- this is like a miniature dude. 123 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,534 And this one... 124 00:06:36,602 --> 00:06:40,231 me and a fellow named Rammellzee did. 125 00:06:41,974 --> 00:06:45,341 This one is the armored letter "E." 126 00:06:45,411 --> 00:06:49,677 And he sort of has his own beliefs about that... 127 00:06:51,584 --> 00:06:55,782 why he arms letters. 128 00:06:55,855 --> 00:06:57,846 - What, to arm a letter? - Yeah. 129 00:06:57,924 --> 00:07:00,757 Just so it could defend itself, actually. 130 00:07:00,827 --> 00:07:03,318 'Cause he says... 131 00:07:03,396 --> 00:07:07,492 the Christians put a Catholic symbol on a letter 132 00:07:07,567 --> 00:07:11,230 and the only way to destroy a symbol is with a symbol. 133 00:07:11,304 --> 00:07:15,172 So in order to destroy a symbol you have to arm a symbol. 134 00:07:15,241 --> 00:07:19,075 And he thinks by arming letters 135 00:07:19,145 --> 00:07:22,581 this Christian symbol will be destroyed. 136 00:07:22,648 --> 00:07:25,640 I hate getting into Rammellzee's religion and shit. 137 00:07:25,718 --> 00:07:28,152 It's like too deep for me and shit. 138 00:07:28,221 --> 00:07:32,885 Rammellzee would smack me for even saying something like that. 139 00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:35,120 This is an arrow, 140 00:07:35,194 --> 00:07:37,094 which actually fires. 141 00:07:37,163 --> 00:07:39,063 And this is like... 142 00:07:39,132 --> 00:07:42,033 some type of like, maybe machine-gun you would have-- 143 00:07:42,101 --> 00:07:44,535 that shoots rays. 144 00:07:44,604 --> 00:07:47,437 And this thing is also like a machine-gun. 145 00:07:47,507 --> 00:07:49,737 And this piece right here, 146 00:07:49,809 --> 00:07:52,972 this is like a gauge or hinge. 147 00:07:53,045 --> 00:07:54,979 And this thing is supposed to actually do 148 00:07:55,047 --> 00:07:58,380 a full 360 so it could even defend itself from behind 149 00:07:58,451 --> 00:08:00,749 or the side, or whatever. 150 00:08:00,820 --> 00:08:03,220 If it was actual, if it was real, 151 00:08:03,289 --> 00:08:05,723 this would be a weapon. 152 00:08:05,791 --> 00:08:08,726 This would be a tank actually, 153 00:08:08,794 --> 00:08:12,127 as he would put it. And this particular letter 154 00:08:12,198 --> 00:08:15,190 would be able to defend itself. 155 00:08:16,402 --> 00:08:19,337 From writing graffiti on trains 156 00:08:19,405 --> 00:08:22,738 and trying to take an art class, you know, it's like-- 157 00:08:23,910 --> 00:08:25,878 Well, I just couldn't do it, you know? 158 00:08:25,945 --> 00:08:28,880 I couldn't see myself doing it. 159 00:08:28,948 --> 00:08:31,815 So I never really took an art class. 160 00:08:31,884 --> 00:08:33,909 But then, okay, see like-- 161 00:08:33,986 --> 00:08:37,615 then there's like a graffiti-- 162 00:08:37,690 --> 00:08:40,318 it's not really a law, but-- 163 00:08:40,393 --> 00:08:45,262 if a dude is using your style and you definitely know it, 164 00:08:45,331 --> 00:08:47,731 and everyone else knows it, you know? 165 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,325 But in our class 166 00:08:50,403 --> 00:08:52,633 it seems like that's accepted or something, 167 00:08:52,705 --> 00:08:55,799 to like use other people's ideas. 168 00:08:55,875 --> 00:08:58,173 Most of the other writers who write now, 169 00:08:58,244 --> 00:08:59,973 have been busted once already. 170 00:09:00,046 --> 00:09:02,708 Or twice or what have you, you know. 171 00:09:02,782 --> 00:09:07,014 As before like in old writers, if you got busted you just quit. 172 00:09:07,086 --> 00:09:10,988 You didn't want to be out there getting busted, you know, 173 00:09:11,057 --> 00:09:13,321 that was like, I mean-- 174 00:09:13,392 --> 00:09:16,122 that was like-- you didn't know the yard 175 00:09:16,195 --> 00:09:18,789 or you just didn't know what you were doing or something... 176 00:09:18,864 --> 00:09:20,798 if you got busted. 177 00:09:20,866 --> 00:09:23,562 That's how, like, old writers look at it actually. 178 00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:32,501 Well actually, my art teacher started me. 179 00:09:32,578 --> 00:09:34,569 Although she didn't know it. 180 00:09:34,647 --> 00:09:36,615 She asked us to do a project 181 00:09:36,682 --> 00:09:39,845 dealing with graffiti on a train station wall. 182 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:41,978 Or a truck or whatever. 183 00:09:42,054 --> 00:09:44,318 I gave it my best shot. 184 00:09:44,390 --> 00:09:47,257 Then one day I was writing on the lunchroom table. 185 00:09:47,326 --> 00:09:49,794 A kid comes over to me asking me what it was. 186 00:09:49,862 --> 00:09:52,194 I started bragging about the graffiti I was doing. 187 00:09:52,265 --> 00:09:55,928 He pulled out a Pilot and showed me what real graffiti was all about. 188 00:09:56,002 --> 00:09:59,938 From that point on I was just more intrigued by it, 189 00:10:00,006 --> 00:10:03,806 and didn't know that it was wrong to do, being a kid and all that. 190 00:10:03,876 --> 00:10:08,006 Naturally you're inspired to do something secretive 191 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,480 and against rules and regulations. 192 00:10:12,018 --> 00:10:15,476 There was always that mischievous thing about it. 193 00:10:15,554 --> 00:10:18,250 Knowing that it was against rules and regulations 194 00:10:18,324 --> 00:10:22,385 but still knowing you can get away with it secretly-- secretively, 195 00:10:22,461 --> 00:10:25,157 and still gain recognition on it. 196 00:10:25,231 --> 00:10:27,165 A lot of people didn't care for it 197 00:10:27,233 --> 00:10:29,326 but there was a handful of people that still did, 198 00:10:29,402 --> 00:10:32,098 and those are the people that kept it alive. 199 00:10:32,171 --> 00:10:35,470 People like Cliff and Vinnie, 200 00:10:35,541 --> 00:10:38,237 and like Superstrut, Stem and Tee. 201 00:10:38,311 --> 00:10:40,745 I could go on forever like naming old names. 202 00:10:41,881 --> 00:10:43,906 It's like... 203 00:10:43,983 --> 00:10:47,009 you know, ask Blade. I mean, why does he still write? 204 00:10:47,086 --> 00:10:49,884 I mean he's been writing longer than me, you know? 205 00:11:05,271 --> 00:11:06,863 Crazy Legs: The Bronx. 206 00:11:06,939 --> 00:11:10,670 It started from 183rd Street and Creston. 207 00:11:10,743 --> 00:11:13,211 Then like, you know, it was like... 208 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:16,646 there for around two years, three years, right. 209 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:18,843 Then they stopped breakin', right? 210 00:11:18,918 --> 00:11:22,319 So the pres of everybody, his name is Jimmy Dee, 211 00:11:22,388 --> 00:11:24,879 he told me to make a visit to Manhattan, 212 00:11:24,957 --> 00:11:26,891 so then I made one over here. 213 00:11:26,959 --> 00:11:29,393 Like most of the people stopped from the Bronx already, 214 00:11:29,462 --> 00:11:31,521 but some of them are trying to come back now 215 00:11:31,597 --> 00:11:34,225 because they hear that people are making money doing it. 216 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:36,928 ( hip-hop music playing ) 217 00:11:44,410 --> 00:11:48,176 I went to the Bronx, to a party. 218 00:11:50,616 --> 00:11:53,414 I met up with him after a long time. 219 00:11:53,486 --> 00:11:57,286 I asked him if I could use the name "Rock Steady" and he said, "Yeah." 220 00:11:57,356 --> 00:11:59,824 But now I don't know where he's at. 221 00:11:59,892 --> 00:12:03,350 He disappeared. So for now, he left me in charge. 222 00:12:03,429 --> 00:12:07,525 And I started going all around getting different people, 223 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,125 and like certain people who have been working with me, 224 00:12:10,202 --> 00:12:12,432 you know, keeping things organized. 225 00:12:12,505 --> 00:12:15,167 ( hip-hop music playing ) 226 00:12:29,455 --> 00:12:31,389 Master Float. 227 00:12:31,457 --> 00:12:34,221 Flow Master-- they call him Master Float, though. 228 00:12:34,293 --> 00:12:36,454 He taught me how to float. 229 00:12:36,529 --> 00:12:38,861 He taught me pop, pop, lock it. 230 00:12:38,931 --> 00:12:42,332 Pop and move like a robot, you know? 231 00:12:44,336 --> 00:12:47,328 I like, just learned it about two weeks ago. 232 00:12:47,406 --> 00:12:49,499 I'm getting gooder by the minute. 233 00:12:49,575 --> 00:12:52,738 Tony: Where did it come from originally? 234 00:12:52,812 --> 00:12:54,939 California. 235 00:12:55,014 --> 00:12:57,039 Like LA. LA. 236 00:12:57,116 --> 00:12:59,277 LA. 237 00:12:59,351 --> 00:13:01,216 Is it hard breaking? 238 00:13:01,287 --> 00:13:03,687 Nah, it's like-- it's called electrical boogie. 239 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:06,384 It's like the robot. And it's pop locking. 240 00:13:06,459 --> 00:13:08,393 You do a move and you like hold it. 241 00:13:08,461 --> 00:13:11,658 Then you move back and then you start floating. 242 00:13:11,730 --> 00:13:13,698 Then you come back. 243 00:13:13,766 --> 00:13:16,234 Then you stop, do the lean or something. 244 00:13:16,302 --> 00:13:19,100 Then you just float, stop and then you pop. 245 00:13:19,171 --> 00:13:23,505 When you pop, you lock it. You hold it there... 246 00:13:23,576 --> 00:13:26,272 like that. 247 00:13:26,345 --> 00:13:28,813 - Where'd you learn to do it? - I learned from him. 248 00:13:28,881 --> 00:13:31,748 We had another guy in our crew that used to do it 249 00:13:31,817 --> 00:13:35,981 but he's no longer with us so I just learned from him. 250 00:13:36,055 --> 00:13:38,250 Once you get to know it, it's easy. 251 00:13:38,324 --> 00:13:41,191 - Who is he? - This guy is called Mr. Freeze. 252 00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:44,423 - Where's he from? - He's from Paris. 253 00:13:52,605 --> 00:13:55,403 Everything pretty is getting dogged. Have you seen that? 254 00:13:55,474 --> 00:13:58,068 Cap: You're proving that at Graphiti Productions-- 255 00:13:58,143 --> 00:14:01,340 that going over people is not the only way to get fame. 256 00:14:01,413 --> 00:14:04,405 So you have your side, too. I'm just doing my own thing. 257 00:14:04,483 --> 00:14:07,418 But who's gonna tell these little toy writers that that's-- 258 00:14:07,486 --> 00:14:09,886 that this is one way to get fame? 259 00:14:09,955 --> 00:14:12,788 The other way they see to get fame is to go over people. 260 00:14:12,858 --> 00:14:15,452 Yeah, but I go over them, too. 261 00:14:15,528 --> 00:14:17,155 What do you plan to do in the future? 262 00:14:17,229 --> 00:14:19,356 You going to keep, like, going over the people 263 00:14:19,431 --> 00:14:22,923 you've been going over, or you gonna make peace with some people? 264 00:14:23,002 --> 00:14:24,936 Well, I don't know. 265 00:14:25,004 --> 00:14:27,131 People start with me or they start with my crew, 266 00:14:27,206 --> 00:14:29,231 I start going over everything they have. 267 00:14:29,308 --> 00:14:32,436 I'm not like people-- you go over one of mine, I go over one of yours. 268 00:14:32,511 --> 00:14:35,480 You go over one of mine, I go over everything you're gonna do, ever. 269 00:14:35,548 --> 00:14:39,279 Anywhere I can find it. And when I catch you, I'll just beat the shit out of you. 270 00:14:39,351 --> 00:14:42,218 We always outran the cops and scaled them fences. 271 00:14:42,288 --> 00:14:45,621 But we can't-- but we can't outrun each other. 272 00:14:45,691 --> 00:14:48,626 We can't play with each other's heads anymore. 273 00:14:48,694 --> 00:14:51,185 We'll be the end of our own graffiti. 274 00:14:55,234 --> 00:14:58,897 At one time we had information that these kids, 275 00:14:58,971 --> 00:15:01,337 about four or five kids, were going to go 276 00:15:01,407 --> 00:15:03,875 to a layup area and do some painting. 277 00:15:03,943 --> 00:15:07,504 So we went there. It was night time, it's dark, there's no moon out, 278 00:15:07,580 --> 00:15:11,641 in dead of winter and we're waiting and waiting. 279 00:15:11,717 --> 00:15:14,311 Finally we hear a little noise coming up through the bushes 280 00:15:14,386 --> 00:15:17,116 and here come the kids. There are about 20 kids there. 281 00:15:17,189 --> 00:15:19,123 If you can visualize it, 282 00:15:19,191 --> 00:15:22,024 we're stuck inside the train, the doors are closed, 283 00:15:22,094 --> 00:15:24,426 the kids are on the outside and they're painting away. 284 00:15:24,496 --> 00:15:27,158 And the fumes from the aerosol cans are coming up, 285 00:15:27,232 --> 00:15:30,360 seeping under the door getting into our nostrils. We're getting dizzy. 286 00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:34,099 We're ready to pass out and we're saying to ourselves, "We better do something now 287 00:15:34,173 --> 00:15:36,767 or it's gonna be too late. We'll have to go to a hospital." 288 00:15:36,842 --> 00:15:39,436 We open the doors, jump down. We grab two or three kids. 289 00:15:39,511 --> 00:15:41,445 We let it be known to them at the time 290 00:15:41,513 --> 00:15:44,539 that we want the rest of the people to give us a call. 291 00:15:44,617 --> 00:15:46,551 And we gave them our number. 292 00:15:46,619 --> 00:15:49,588 The next day, the phone was constantly ringing off the hook, 293 00:15:49,655 --> 00:15:51,850 just waiting to just about surrender. 294 00:15:51,924 --> 00:15:54,518 I know where you live, I'm gonna pick you up sooner or later, 295 00:15:54,593 --> 00:15:57,391 might as well give yourself up. They're well known for that. 296 00:15:57,463 --> 00:15:59,897 What gives you away is ink in your hands, 297 00:15:59,965 --> 00:16:01,830 if you're doing insides, right? 298 00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:05,131 So you would try to-- like you would try to talk it out. 299 00:16:05,204 --> 00:16:07,536 "No, like I dropped something in the track, 300 00:16:07,606 --> 00:16:09,665 and I went down there to get it," and all that. 301 00:16:09,742 --> 00:16:11,801 You're trying to keep your hands in your pocket, 302 00:16:11,877 --> 00:16:14,744 not show your hands. Then he'll tell you, "Let me see your hands." 303 00:16:14,813 --> 00:16:17,748 When you show your hands, if they're inked up 304 00:16:17,816 --> 00:16:20,182 they got an arrest right there for graffiti. 305 00:16:20,252 --> 00:16:22,243 It's up to him. He can comply, 306 00:16:22,321 --> 00:16:24,516 or he doesn't have to comply. 307 00:16:24,590 --> 00:16:27,582 He can come with me, or he doesn't have to come with me. 308 00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:29,890 One way or another, he's going to come, with me. 309 00:16:29,962 --> 00:16:32,590 I have a job to do. He has fun to do... 310 00:16:32,665 --> 00:16:35,600 doing his trains. I have a job to do. 311 00:16:35,668 --> 00:16:37,761 Unfortunately, I don't think 312 00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:40,498 they have anything to fear from the courts. 313 00:16:40,572 --> 00:16:42,506 They have to fear the system itself. 314 00:16:42,574 --> 00:16:45,805 The train system. It's dangerous, very dangerous out there. 315 00:16:45,878 --> 00:16:47,937 The courts are backlogged 316 00:16:48,013 --> 00:16:51,608 with such numbers of violent crime. 317 00:16:51,684 --> 00:16:54,812 Graffiti, itself, is not a violent crime. 318 00:16:54,887 --> 00:16:57,515 It's not a crime against a person. It's against property. 319 00:16:57,589 --> 00:17:00,422 And it has to take-- it has to sit on the back burner. 320 00:17:00,492 --> 00:17:02,084 They know the yards, and the layups. 321 00:17:02,161 --> 00:17:04,129 They know the system. 322 00:17:11,370 --> 00:17:13,668 ( trains rolling ) 323 00:17:24,717 --> 00:17:27,652 Usually I do my pieces in between the lanes, if anything. 324 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,315 You only got a four-foot distance in-between. 325 00:17:31,390 --> 00:17:34,723 You gotta stand on one foot on one train, one leg on the other train. 326 00:17:34,793 --> 00:17:38,320 And it's kinda hard to... 327 00:17:38,397 --> 00:17:40,331 envision the whole piece 328 00:17:40,399 --> 00:17:42,560 between four feet, just to stand back. 329 00:17:42,634 --> 00:17:44,659 You gotta get used to it. 330 00:17:44,737 --> 00:17:48,468 Once you're used to it, you're able to proportion your pieces to the right size. 331 00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:51,839 All's I know, it takes anywhere between 15-20 cans 332 00:17:51,910 --> 00:17:54,435 to do a full car. 333 00:17:54,513 --> 00:17:56,447 I like to color mine in solid 334 00:17:56,515 --> 00:17:59,814 so I use approximately 20 cans myself. 335 00:17:59,885 --> 00:18:01,978 In the case of doing it top to bottom, 336 00:18:02,054 --> 00:18:05,387 you can either open a window and hang on the windows. 337 00:18:05,457 --> 00:18:08,722 Open the door-- you can hang out the door and fill in the top. 338 00:18:08,794 --> 00:18:12,286 One time I even used one of those suction cups, 339 00:18:12,364 --> 00:18:15,925 that the glass people who carry-- you know-- to put in windows. 340 00:18:16,001 --> 00:18:19,368 Put it on there and suck it on and you hold onto the window as you paint. 341 00:18:20,606 --> 00:18:24,201 This train I must have painted... two weeks ago. 342 00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:26,710 Brand new, they already painted over it. 343 00:18:26,779 --> 00:18:30,010 One solid silver paint job. 344 00:18:30,082 --> 00:18:32,209 On the other side they already have-- 345 00:18:32,284 --> 00:18:35,253 I have another piece on the other side, as a matter of fact. 346 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,811 See, they paint right over your work. 347 00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:41,758 They leave your work in the windows. 348 00:18:41,827 --> 00:18:44,728 I hope they're not buffing no more, they're just repainting. 349 00:18:46,498 --> 00:18:48,762 Man, this guy used to be king of the line. 350 00:18:48,834 --> 00:18:53,601 Two years back. Sly 108, alias known as MC. 351 00:18:57,142 --> 00:19:00,111 I must have been in this yard in about '75. 352 00:19:00,179 --> 00:19:03,410 '75? Yeah, '75 sure. 353 00:19:03,482 --> 00:19:07,680 I met Danko, Danko 1, who was doing the art in here. 354 00:19:07,753 --> 00:19:09,948 At the time, he was trying to take over. 355 00:19:10,022 --> 00:19:13,321 Again, he didn't quite do it but that was the first time, 356 00:19:13,392 --> 00:19:15,326 and I got raided the first time. 357 00:19:15,394 --> 00:19:18,693 Still come back for more, though. It's the excitement in it all. 358 00:19:18,764 --> 00:19:21,460 Tony: What about the art? 359 00:19:21,533 --> 00:19:24,058 I wouldn't say too much for that. 360 00:19:24,136 --> 00:19:27,663 Just a matter of how many pieces I could put up. 361 00:19:27,739 --> 00:19:31,300 I really don't-- I really can't say that it's art. 362 00:19:31,376 --> 00:19:33,936 It's just... 363 00:19:34,012 --> 00:19:36,572 It just keeps me going. I don't know what I'm gonna do 364 00:19:36,648 --> 00:19:39,446 after you're not able to go in the yards anymore. 365 00:19:39,518 --> 00:19:41,850 After they put up the fences and all. 366 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,946 There's an old guy. This guy used to be king of the line, 367 00:19:45,023 --> 00:19:46,957 Puma 107. 368 00:19:47,025 --> 00:19:51,018 Right before-- No, him and Sly 108 were about the same. 369 00:19:53,198 --> 00:19:55,132 Here's another piece. 370 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,136 Two of my buddies. This is a PJ/Sin. It's kind of old. 371 00:19:59,204 --> 00:20:01,138 They cleaned the windows. 372 00:20:01,206 --> 00:20:03,766 Dripping from the acid. 373 00:20:03,842 --> 00:20:06,276 Comet... 374 00:20:06,345 --> 00:20:08,506 painted over PJ. 375 00:20:08,580 --> 00:20:11,572 That's what happens, they don't last more than maybe a week, 376 00:20:11,650 --> 00:20:14,084 if the city doesn't get them. 377 00:20:33,839 --> 00:20:37,036 It would be so cool if you could just... 378 00:20:37,109 --> 00:20:39,441 get a graffiti writer, 379 00:20:39,511 --> 00:20:43,106 or a young graffiti writer, who you think would be into it. 380 00:20:43,181 --> 00:20:45,376 Or you just think... 381 00:20:45,450 --> 00:20:49,181 he'll be writing for a number of years, 382 00:20:49,254 --> 00:20:51,882 and just film him through his stages 383 00:20:51,957 --> 00:20:56,155 of like, you know, step one, and step two, 384 00:20:56,228 --> 00:20:58,458 or whatever stages he goes through. 385 00:21:06,672 --> 00:21:10,472 Dondi: Just him on the way to the yard that night, you know? 386 00:21:10,542 --> 00:21:15,138 Then, like, him looking for that first piece. 387 00:21:19,584 --> 00:21:22,985 To have that kind of documentation 388 00:21:23,055 --> 00:21:26,115 of a graffiti writer. 389 00:21:30,762 --> 00:21:34,493 That would be, like, a real good film, actually. 390 00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:39,953 It starts in darkness. 391 00:21:42,763 --> 00:21:45,698 That's partly romance but it's true. 392 00:21:45,766 --> 00:21:47,700 It starts, it gets made, 393 00:21:47,768 --> 00:21:49,702 the work of art happens in darkness. 394 00:21:49,770 --> 00:21:51,761 Then it bursts into the light. 395 00:21:51,838 --> 00:21:53,829 And then, we see it, right? 396 00:21:53,907 --> 00:21:58,003 Everybody sees it, hates it, loves it. 397 00:21:58,078 --> 00:21:59,875 Is stunned by it in one way or another. 398 00:21:59,947 --> 00:22:02,006 And that's kind of the feeling 399 00:22:02,082 --> 00:22:04,243 I wanted to express at the beginning of the film. 400 00:22:04,318 --> 00:22:06,479 Henry is a very low-key person. 401 00:22:06,553 --> 00:22:09,181 Henry's wife, Kathy, is an actress 402 00:22:09,256 --> 00:22:11,190 and a very dramatic person. 403 00:22:11,258 --> 00:22:13,556 I remember we were having dinner one night. 404 00:22:13,627 --> 00:22:15,925 And we'd been kicking this around. 405 00:22:15,996 --> 00:22:17,930 What would this film be about? 406 00:22:17,998 --> 00:22:19,932 And Henry was saying, "It really is-- 407 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,934 there's rap music and there's..." 408 00:22:22,002 --> 00:22:24,470 We kept thinking, "Where are the boundaries? 409 00:22:24,538 --> 00:22:27,939 How do we-- 410 00:22:28,008 --> 00:22:31,409 how do we write the proposal to raise the money for this?" 411 00:22:31,478 --> 00:22:33,036 And Kathy... 412 00:22:33,113 --> 00:22:35,013 launched into this incredible, 413 00:22:35,082 --> 00:22:37,778 unbelievable aria. 414 00:22:37,851 --> 00:22:40,081 I still think of it as an aria. 415 00:22:40,153 --> 00:22:41,984 About... 416 00:22:42,055 --> 00:22:43,989 the drama of this. 417 00:22:44,057 --> 00:22:46,116 Going into the tunnels, going into the layups. 418 00:22:46,193 --> 00:22:49,651 Risking your life to paint a whole car in the middle of the night. 419 00:22:49,730 --> 00:22:51,721 And I thought, "Yeah, it's an opera. 420 00:22:51,798 --> 00:22:53,732 That's what it really is." 421 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,734 The music makes it an opera. 422 00:22:55,802 --> 00:22:57,736 And the dance makes it an opera. 423 00:22:57,804 --> 00:23:00,398 This is theater. And it's theater that's happening... 424 00:23:00,474 --> 00:23:02,635 in real life, 425 00:23:02,709 --> 00:23:04,643 in my city. 426 00:23:04,711 --> 00:23:06,975 And then I really felt it as a film. 427 00:23:07,047 --> 00:23:09,481 We all-- we may have forgotten 428 00:23:09,549 --> 00:23:11,744 what terrible condition the subways were in, 429 00:23:11,818 --> 00:23:14,787 along with the rest of the city and its infrastructure. 430 00:23:14,855 --> 00:23:16,982 The subways were a garbage dump, essentially. 431 00:23:17,057 --> 00:23:21,619 It was a vacuum of attention 432 00:23:21,695 --> 00:23:24,892 on the part of the civic authorities of the city. 433 00:23:24,965 --> 00:23:26,956 And you could argue 434 00:23:27,034 --> 00:23:31,027 that what graffiti artists and writers and taggers were doing 435 00:23:31,104 --> 00:23:34,335 was they were filling this vacuum the way they knew how. 436 00:23:34,408 --> 00:23:37,571 And in the course of doing it, discovered a capacity in themselves 437 00:23:37,644 --> 00:23:40,238 to make something that was transcendent. 438 00:23:40,313 --> 00:23:43,510 I didn't only want rap music in the film. 439 00:23:43,583 --> 00:23:46,484 I didn't only want-- I wanted a lot of that, 440 00:23:46,553 --> 00:23:48,487 but I wanted another element 441 00:23:48,555 --> 00:23:50,489 that would make it feel like a movie. 442 00:23:50,557 --> 00:23:52,991 And I had seen "Excalibur," actually-- 443 00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:55,688 John Boorman's-- a couple of years before that. 444 00:23:55,762 --> 00:23:57,696 I had loved the way he had used Wagner. 445 00:23:57,764 --> 00:24:00,096 ( humming ) It was just-- it was marvelous. 446 00:24:00,167 --> 00:24:02,397 So Sam Pollard, the editor, and l-- 447 00:24:02,469 --> 00:24:05,063 we started putting this opening sequence together. 448 00:24:05,138 --> 00:24:08,005 And didn't know if it was going to work. 449 00:24:08,075 --> 00:24:11,374 Sam had a class and he was teaching them film editing. 450 00:24:11,445 --> 00:24:14,005 So he brought these kids in when I wasn't there, 451 00:24:14,081 --> 00:24:16,311 and when I showed up, he said, 452 00:24:16,383 --> 00:24:18,317 "Tony, I had these kids in here. " 453 00:24:18,385 --> 00:24:21,183 I said, "Yes. " He said, "I showed them what we're doing. " 454 00:24:21,254 --> 00:24:23,552 I said, "What'd they say?" 455 00:24:23,623 --> 00:24:26,353 He said, "One kid looked at it and he said 'Excalibur. "' 456 00:24:26,426 --> 00:24:28,986 ( laughing ) 457 00:24:29,062 --> 00:24:30,996 Oh yeah, that's the music from "Excalibur." 458 00:24:31,064 --> 00:24:33,464 I though, "Yeah, exactly. 459 00:24:33,533 --> 00:24:35,524 So to them, now it's a movie." 460 00:24:35,602 --> 00:24:38,298 Narrator: In the 1970s, New York graffiti, 461 00:24:38,371 --> 00:24:40,965 rapping and breaking became the prime expression... 462 00:24:41,041 --> 00:24:43,202 Tony: A friend of mine was a documentarian. 463 00:24:43,276 --> 00:24:45,210 He saw the film and he said, 464 00:24:45,278 --> 00:24:47,212 "God, you've done things with music 465 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,373 that nobody's ever done in a documentary before. 466 00:24:49,449 --> 00:24:51,974 It's astounding and amazing. 467 00:24:54,321 --> 00:24:56,653 But that awful narration," he said. 468 00:24:56,723 --> 00:24:58,987 Yeah, you know-- 469 00:24:59,059 --> 00:25:00,993 How could you do that? 470 00:25:01,061 --> 00:25:03,256 The other thing about the narration 471 00:25:03,330 --> 00:25:05,264 is that he sounds enough like me, that-- 472 00:25:05,332 --> 00:25:07,266 Really? 473 00:25:07,334 --> 00:25:09,268 I keep-- people assume-- 474 00:25:09,336 --> 00:25:11,463 lots and lots of people assume that it's me. 475 00:25:11,538 --> 00:25:15,133 I moved to New York in the end of 1972, 476 00:25:15,208 --> 00:25:17,142 I was a sculptor, 477 00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:20,202 and I think I was on the verge of a career change 478 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,305 that I wasn't at all conscious of. 479 00:25:22,382 --> 00:25:25,510 These extraordinary cars are coming through the stations, 480 00:25:25,585 --> 00:25:27,610 and I was commuting every day. 481 00:25:27,687 --> 00:25:30,884 I couldn't wait to get on the train and see what was going on. 482 00:25:30,957 --> 00:25:32,822 I thought, "Wow, this would be great 483 00:25:32,893 --> 00:25:34,724 to try to take pictures of this. 484 00:25:34,795 --> 00:25:36,626 Somebody should be documenting it. 485 00:25:36,696 --> 00:25:38,630 And the pictures that I took 486 00:25:38,698 --> 00:25:41,394 were these segmented pictures 487 00:25:41,468 --> 00:25:44,528 which I then made a composite out of in my studio afterwards, 488 00:25:44,604 --> 00:25:46,538 and I put them in sections. 489 00:25:46,606 --> 00:25:49,234 As a sculptor, one of the things I had to do all the time 490 00:25:49,309 --> 00:25:52,142 was create sites for proposals. 491 00:25:52,212 --> 00:25:54,476 And you make your little model, 492 00:25:54,548 --> 00:25:56,277 and you put it in a diorama, 493 00:25:56,349 --> 00:25:58,476 and you create the environment around it 494 00:25:58,552 --> 00:26:01,282 by going up to the site and taking pictures, 495 00:26:01,354 --> 00:26:04,152 panoramic pictures, and splicing them together. 496 00:26:04,224 --> 00:26:06,749 So, it just came totally natural to me. 497 00:26:06,827 --> 00:26:08,852 Take a picture, jump. Take a picture, jump. 498 00:26:08,929 --> 00:26:11,454 Take a picture, jump. This one I took five. 499 00:26:11,531 --> 00:26:13,726 I would get information. 500 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,496 I would be told the next day, 501 00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:18,128 when somebody did a piece, 502 00:26:18,205 --> 00:26:19,832 I'd get it on my answering machine. 503 00:26:19,906 --> 00:26:21,339 Yo, Henry, this is Lask. 504 00:26:21,408 --> 00:26:23,399 I busted out a rooftop on the 6 line. 505 00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:26,070 - Bright colors... - That's how I would know where to go. 506 00:26:26,146 --> 00:26:28,080 I would get there right away. 507 00:26:28,148 --> 00:26:30,275 It really increased my chances of getting it, 508 00:26:30,350 --> 00:26:32,181 because it's a big system. 509 00:26:32,252 --> 00:26:35,153 If you go up randomly waiting for trains, 510 00:26:35,222 --> 00:26:37,554 you spend all day and you might not get anything. 511 00:26:37,624 --> 00:26:40,957 So if you know where to go and what line it's on, it really helps. 512 00:26:41,027 --> 00:26:43,120 I had taken pictures for about three years, 513 00:26:43,196 --> 00:26:44,720 before I ever met-- 514 00:26:44,798 --> 00:26:46,766 consciously met a graffiti writer. 515 00:26:46,833 --> 00:26:48,767 I think it was '79, 516 00:26:48,835 --> 00:26:51,633 another kid was on the platform doing the same thing I was. 517 00:26:51,705 --> 00:26:53,866 He was the one who said, 518 00:26:53,940 --> 00:26:57,205 "Go to the writers bench because all the writers hang out there. " 519 00:26:57,277 --> 00:26:59,211 For months they thought I was a cop. 520 00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:01,839 'Cause who else? Middle-aged white man, 521 00:27:01,915 --> 00:27:03,849 what's he doing... 522 00:27:03,917 --> 00:27:06,317 up on the platforms taking pictures of graffiti? 523 00:27:06,386 --> 00:27:09,287 What's he doing getting to know graffiti writers, 524 00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:12,189 if it wasn't for a major bust? 525 00:27:12,259 --> 00:27:15,126 Intelligence, and then getting everybody together in one spot 526 00:27:15,195 --> 00:27:17,254 and then calling in the troops. 527 00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:20,128 I was doing the fill-in. I was like the toy. 528 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,134 This was the apprenticeship. 529 00:27:22,202 --> 00:27:24,170 You'd go out with an 18-year-old 530 00:27:24,237 --> 00:27:26,205 master of graffiti art. 531 00:27:26,273 --> 00:27:28,207 And that way you would learn to paint. 532 00:27:28,275 --> 00:27:31,039 After photography came along, 533 00:27:31,111 --> 00:27:34,512 and began to be used, especially with my pictures-- 534 00:27:34,581 --> 00:27:38,017 I had such a big collection of a lot of the masters' work-- 535 00:27:38,084 --> 00:27:41,520 kids would come to my studio, and they would be able to sit and study it. 536 00:27:41,588 --> 00:27:44,887 So it changed the way the whole process took place. 537 00:27:44,958 --> 00:27:48,325 That's why we talk about Case and his camouflaging the letters. 538 00:27:48,395 --> 00:27:51,796 He was determined to make it so complex, 539 00:27:51,865 --> 00:27:53,799 that even if you had a camera-- 540 00:27:53,867 --> 00:27:56,461 I don't think you'll even be able to read it. 541 00:27:56,536 --> 00:27:58,436 ( laughter ) 542 00:27:58,505 --> 00:28:01,997 Koch, Ravitch, and Cap gave us the plot of the film. 543 00:28:02,075 --> 00:28:04,669 It didn't have a plot up to that point. 544 00:28:04,744 --> 00:28:08,305 It was just a survey. I had no idea how it would come together. 545 00:28:08,381 --> 00:28:10,576 That was fresh. It was a brand new burner. 546 00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:12,618 It only ran for two days. 547 00:28:12,686 --> 00:28:15,052 He didn't even give it a chance to run on the line. 548 00:28:15,121 --> 00:28:17,055 Just like, "Pahl" 549 00:28:17,123 --> 00:28:20,024 After one of these interviews with somebody complaining about Cap, 550 00:28:20,093 --> 00:28:22,789 Tony would say, "We can't use this, 551 00:28:22,862 --> 00:28:24,796 unless we have Cap. 552 00:28:24,864 --> 00:28:26,832 This is meaningless, unless we have Cap. 553 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:28,993 It's just one side of a hand clapping. 554 00:28:29,069 --> 00:28:31,094 We need to have Cap." 555 00:28:31,171 --> 00:28:33,139 And so I'm rolling my eyes I'm going, 556 00:28:33,206 --> 00:28:35,140 "Oh my God. You know what that means?" 557 00:28:35,208 --> 00:28:38,177 Because I know what that means. 558 00:28:38,244 --> 00:28:40,508 That's the last thing-- within the subculture-- 559 00:28:40,580 --> 00:28:42,548 you want to do is give him fame. 560 00:28:42,615 --> 00:28:44,515 So, I was against it. 561 00:28:44,584 --> 00:28:47,553 And I was taking the side of the writers, 562 00:28:47,620 --> 00:28:49,884 and not even mentioning it to the writers. 563 00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:52,322 Were you also concerned about the anthropologist 564 00:28:52,392 --> 00:28:55,293 intervening in the activity of the culture? 565 00:28:55,362 --> 00:28:57,922 No, I'm not that pure. 566 00:28:57,998 --> 00:29:01,263 I was intrigued by Cap, too, because I never met Cap. 567 00:29:01,334 --> 00:29:04,394 I knew people who knew him, but I'd never met him. 568 00:29:04,471 --> 00:29:06,871 I gave in, basically. 569 00:29:06,940 --> 00:29:10,171 So, through the grapevine I knew how to get to him, 570 00:29:10,243 --> 00:29:13,610 he had friends who were playing a double game, too. 571 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,774 Pretending not to know him but who knew him 572 00:29:16,850 --> 00:29:18,818 and were actually friends of his. 573 00:29:18,885 --> 00:29:20,876 Friends who shall be nameless. 574 00:29:20,954 --> 00:29:23,320 Friends who shall forever remain nameless. 575 00:29:23,390 --> 00:29:27,019 So through these connections, 576 00:29:27,093 --> 00:29:29,027 I found him, 577 00:29:29,095 --> 00:29:32,394 and he was more than happy to be a part of this. 578 00:29:32,465 --> 00:29:35,229 But he said from the get-go, 579 00:29:35,301 --> 00:29:38,202 he said, "You can't film my face." 580 00:29:38,271 --> 00:29:41,035 I'm telling Tony he's going to wear a ski mask, 581 00:29:41,107 --> 00:29:43,632 and Tony's going, "No, it's not working. 582 00:29:43,710 --> 00:29:46,406 It's not going to work. He can't wear a ski mask." 583 00:29:46,479 --> 00:29:49,380 But we have to do it anyway, because it's better than nothing. 584 00:29:49,449 --> 00:29:51,383 So, on the appointed day, 585 00:29:51,451 --> 00:29:55,046 he comes and... no ski mask. 586 00:29:55,121 --> 00:29:57,817 And when I brought it up, he said "Don't worry about it. " 587 00:29:57,891 --> 00:30:00,257 Cap: People don't know what I look like until now, 588 00:30:00,326 --> 00:30:02,260 till they start going to the movies. 589 00:30:02,328 --> 00:30:05,263 They're gonna see my face. Big deal. 590 00:30:05,331 --> 00:30:07,765 I'm-- I'm glad I got Cap. 591 00:30:07,834 --> 00:30:11,600 I paid a little price, but I'm glad I got Cap. 592 00:30:13,373 --> 00:30:15,500 People still feel betrayed by it. 593 00:30:15,575 --> 00:30:16,974 I get that all the time. 594 00:30:18,078 --> 00:30:21,707 We knew that it was an amazing phenomenon, 595 00:30:21,781 --> 00:30:24,215 and we knew that the film that we were making 596 00:30:24,284 --> 00:30:27,310 was showing the world something, 597 00:30:27,387 --> 00:30:30,652 that the world generally wasn't aware of. 598 00:30:30,723 --> 00:30:33,487 That this would have some kind of impact. 599 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,996 I don't thinks we had the sort of vision 600 00:30:37,063 --> 00:30:40,863 to understand the extent of it, what it would become. 601 00:30:40,934 --> 00:30:42,902 Because of the photographs, 602 00:30:42,969 --> 00:30:46,427 it's been like a visa to another world 603 00:30:46,506 --> 00:30:50,237 that never in a million years would I have gotten into. 604 00:30:51,544 --> 00:30:55,981 Those photographs gave me this incredible access, 605 00:30:56,049 --> 00:30:58,381 to meet the most extraordinary people. 606 00:30:58,451 --> 00:31:00,510 It's a gift to me 607 00:31:02,355 --> 00:31:04,983 that because of Henry, I got to make this film. 608 00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:09,328 There's so many paradoxes associated with graffiti, 609 00:31:09,395 --> 00:31:12,330 about whether it's good or bad for society, 610 00:31:12,465 --> 00:31:14,160 good or bad for kids who do it. 611 00:31:14,234 --> 00:31:18,034 It's a tangle that can never be untangled or reconciled. 612 00:31:18,104 --> 00:31:21,164 And that to me-- finally, those paradoxes 613 00:31:21,241 --> 00:31:24,472 are the most fascinating thing of all about this project-- 614 00:31:24,544 --> 00:31:27,945 that finally there is no judgment that can be made. 615 00:31:28,014 --> 00:31:30,005 It just is. 616 00:31:30,083 --> 00:31:32,916 And the "isness" of it is... 617 00:31:32,986 --> 00:31:34,954 its poetry and its beauty. 618 00:31:36,858 --> 00:31:39,326 "Style Wars" had a very strong concept. 619 00:31:39,394 --> 00:31:42,795 There was a little question about how fair it was going to be. 620 00:31:42,864 --> 00:31:45,458 Did you want to present both sides of the issue? 621 00:31:45,534 --> 00:31:47,832 I always remember, very distinctly, Kase. 622 00:31:47,903 --> 00:31:51,066 and I remember the material of Kase walking into the projects. 623 00:31:51,139 --> 00:31:54,302 You know, yelling out to the people, 624 00:31:54,376 --> 00:31:56,037 and then the camera pans up, 625 00:31:56,111 --> 00:31:58,375 and then we're inside looking at him 626 00:31:58,447 --> 00:32:01,314 as he's creating one of his masterworks and stuff. 627 00:32:01,383 --> 00:32:04,352 and for me, growing up in East Harlem, in the projects, 628 00:32:04,419 --> 00:32:05,613 I connected. 629 00:32:05,687 --> 00:32:07,780 Kase and that group, they really stuck out to me. 630 00:32:07,856 --> 00:32:10,450 Kanefsky: That was a great scene. One of the few scenes 631 00:32:10,525 --> 00:32:12,686 that cut very quickly and very easily. 632 00:32:12,761 --> 00:32:14,888 Well... Tony had me rework it a few times. 633 00:32:14,963 --> 00:32:16,555 Tony has everything reworked! 634 00:32:16,631 --> 00:32:19,099 What happened with the guy with his mother 635 00:32:19,167 --> 00:32:22,000 - that we interwove throughout? - Kanefsky: That was incredible. 636 00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:25,267 That's one of the big structural things that we came up with 637 00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:28,104 - which worked beautifully, but it took... - A long time. 638 00:32:28,176 --> 00:32:30,269 Should it be in front of this scene or behind it? 639 00:32:30,345 --> 00:32:31,937 Should it be in front, or behind--? 640 00:32:32,013 --> 00:32:34,174 Mary, who started as an apprentice, 641 00:32:34,249 --> 00:32:37,013 by the time she left the film-- 642 00:32:37,085 --> 00:32:39,417 which was approximately one year of working, 643 00:32:39,488 --> 00:32:41,353 roughly from promo on-- 644 00:32:41,423 --> 00:32:42,788 was an editor. 645 00:32:42,858 --> 00:32:45,349 I love the Wagner. I love when the trains come out 646 00:32:45,427 --> 00:32:48,021 and the music is oh, so powerful and big 647 00:32:48,096 --> 00:32:49,961 and monstrous. 648 00:32:50,031 --> 00:32:51,623 And then that cut, 649 00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:53,600 that cut to the hip-hop music, 650 00:32:53,668 --> 00:32:57,195 it's fantastic. That's one of the great music cuts I ever did. 651 00:32:57,272 --> 00:32:59,206 It was Tony's idea. It was a great cut. 652 00:32:59,274 --> 00:33:01,174 "Pump, pump, pump it up, pump me up." 653 00:33:01,243 --> 00:33:05,577 After the old gentleman says, "It's in his nom de plume--" "I'm a wanderer. " 654 00:33:05,647 --> 00:33:08,445 We tried so many things in terms of speed and tempo 655 00:33:08,517 --> 00:33:09,848 and changing music 656 00:33:09,918 --> 00:33:12,352 and cutting different phrases out of music and stuff 657 00:33:12,420 --> 00:33:13,887 and bringing them together. 658 00:33:13,955 --> 00:33:15,946 There are no rules that you can follow, 659 00:33:16,024 --> 00:33:19,858 and that's one of the reasons I like the independent documentary film. 660 00:33:19,928 --> 00:33:22,226 We would cut something-- I would cut something-- 661 00:33:22,297 --> 00:33:24,629 and Victor would re-cut it, and Mary might re-cut it. 662 00:33:24,699 --> 00:33:26,997 Then it would come back to me and I'd cut it again. 663 00:33:27,068 --> 00:33:30,469 We went to lunch and I said, "What do we do now that the money's run out?" 664 00:33:30,539 --> 00:33:32,598 - Keep going! - Otherwise we didn't have a film. 665 00:33:32,674 --> 00:33:35,609 If you don't have a film, why did we start in the first place? 666 00:33:35,677 --> 00:33:37,508 When you see the result, 667 00:33:37,579 --> 00:33:39,604 when you see the reaction to it, 668 00:33:39,681 --> 00:33:41,774 if you go flash forward 19 years later-- 669 00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:45,183 and I have students who I advise come to my class, 670 00:33:45,253 --> 00:33:48,086 and come to me for advisement and they'll say... 671 00:33:49,891 --> 00:33:51,722 "Did you do that film 'Style Wars'?" 672 00:33:51,793 --> 00:33:55,058 I say, "Yeah," and they say, "Wow, that's one of the great documentaries." 673 00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:57,598 Even my sons, who don't usually look at my films, 674 00:33:57,666 --> 00:33:59,725 they like that film. 675 00:33:59,801 --> 00:34:03,202 Tony: What was the biggest struggle that you had? 676 00:34:03,271 --> 00:34:05,296 The biggest struggle was always you, Tony. 677 00:34:05,373 --> 00:34:06,601 ( laughing ) 55067

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