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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:04,438 --> 00:00:08,108 (ominous orchestral music) 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,115 (ominous orchestral music continues) 3 00:00:20,961 --> 00:00:24,031 - The Book of Revelations talked about the Second Coming. 4 00:00:24,065 --> 00:00:27,368 - Jesus is coming. (slow orchestral music) 5 00:00:27,401 --> 00:00:28,569 - [Congregation] Amen. 6 00:00:28,602 --> 00:00:29,704 - There are a bunch of predictions 7 00:00:29,737 --> 00:00:32,506 about what would happen before the end of the world, 8 00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:34,508 and the imminent return of Jesus. 9 00:00:34,542 --> 00:00:35,910 - [Speaker] What will be the sign 10 00:00:35,943 --> 00:00:37,445 when this is about to take place? 11 00:00:38,379 --> 00:00:40,014 - In a weird way, 12 00:00:40,047 --> 00:00:41,882 a lot of them have paralleled recent history, 13 00:00:41,916 --> 00:00:44,885 natural disasters. (wind whistles) 14 00:00:44,919 --> 00:00:46,354 - [Reporter] Explosive wildfire. 15 00:00:46,387 --> 00:00:47,288 - [Reporter] The worst flooding in a decade. 16 00:00:47,321 --> 00:00:48,389 - [Lech] Pandemics. 17 00:00:48,422 --> 00:00:51,025 - [Reporter] 73,000 cases a day. 18 00:00:51,058 --> 00:00:53,561 - [Lech] Wars, famines. 19 00:00:53,594 --> 00:00:55,596 It has directly fed into a lot 20 00:00:55,629 --> 00:00:58,599 of Brian Houston's prophecies. 21 00:00:58,632 --> 00:01:00,368 - [Speaker] "And before all of this, 22 00:01:00,401 --> 00:01:02,903 they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, 23 00:01:02,937 --> 00:01:05,206 and you'll be brought before governors 24 00:01:05,239 --> 00:01:07,174 and kings for my namesake." 25 00:01:07,208 --> 00:01:10,444 - He told followers, "When bad things happen, 26 00:01:10,478 --> 00:01:12,213 you know that good times are near. 27 00:01:12,246 --> 00:01:13,514 The more bad that happens, 28 00:01:13,547 --> 00:01:16,117 the closer we are to deliverance." 29 00:01:16,150 --> 00:01:21,055 (motorcycle engine revs) (light orchestral music) 30 00:01:22,890 --> 00:01:24,058 It's the perfect defense for Brian Houston 31 00:01:24,091 --> 00:01:26,093 because the more that he was persecuted, 32 00:01:26,127 --> 00:01:28,863 the more alluring he became to a lot of his followers. 33 00:01:28,896 --> 00:01:30,097 (group chattering) 34 00:01:30,131 --> 00:01:32,066 ♪ It's time to go (congregation cheers) 35 00:01:32,099 --> 00:01:32,967 - He was actually proving what he was predicting, 36 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,935 which is, "They're going to come after me. 37 00:01:34,969 --> 00:01:37,204 They're going to accuse me of things." 38 00:01:42,243 --> 00:01:47,081 - I still want to have a Pentecostal two-step when I'm 112. 39 00:01:47,114 --> 00:01:49,917 (congregation cheers) (congregation applauds) 40 00:01:49,950 --> 00:01:51,118 To me, it's not about the politics. 41 00:01:51,152 --> 00:01:53,587 It's about the position. 42 00:01:53,621 --> 00:01:55,556 (audience cheers) 43 00:01:55,589 --> 00:01:56,357 - It's just been a real easy path for you, right? 44 00:01:56,390 --> 00:01:57,925 I mean, it was just kind 45 00:01:57,958 --> 00:01:59,427 of a tiptoe through the tulips kind of thing. 46 00:01:59,460 --> 00:02:04,231 - [Speaker] "Live, Love, Lead: Your Best is Yet to Come!" 47 00:02:04,265 --> 00:02:05,199 (Brian laughs) 48 00:02:05,232 --> 00:02:06,600 - For a lot of Pentecostals, 49 00:02:06,634 --> 00:02:09,570 the truest proof of perfection is persecution. 50 00:02:09,603 --> 00:02:14,041 - Persecuted, but not forsaken. (laughs) 51 00:02:14,075 --> 00:02:16,010 - As the allegations and the stumbles 52 00:02:16,043 --> 00:02:18,512 within the church became more and more public, 53 00:02:18,546 --> 00:02:20,915 Hillsong became presciently shaped 54 00:02:20,948 --> 00:02:23,517 by defensiveness more than anything else. 55 00:02:23,551 --> 00:02:24,952 - The battle lines are drawn, 56 00:02:24,986 --> 00:02:26,520 and when it comes to me and my family, 57 00:02:26,554 --> 00:02:31,092 I believe the gates of Hell will not prevail against us. 58 00:02:31,125 --> 00:02:33,361 - But there's so much disarray 59 00:02:33,394 --> 00:02:35,096 in the way Brian has led the church 60 00:02:35,129 --> 00:02:39,233 that Brian's unraveling was bound to happen at some point. 61 00:02:39,266 --> 00:02:40,935 Some people were bound to start putting things together. 62 00:02:40,968 --> 00:02:42,103 - Do you think you could've avoided this 63 00:02:42,136 --> 00:02:43,404 by reporting it to police? 64 00:02:43,437 --> 00:02:44,839 - [Reporter] You told your followers 65 00:02:44,872 --> 00:02:46,340 that you were ready for battle. 66 00:02:46,374 --> 00:02:49,176 Is that a reference to the charges? 67 00:02:49,210 --> 00:02:52,213 ♪ But it's time to go 68 00:02:55,549 --> 00:02:57,885 (slow music) 69 00:03:02,089 --> 00:03:06,360 ♪ I hope you find some peace of mind ♪ 70 00:03:06,394 --> 00:03:11,465 ♪ In this lifetime 71 00:03:13,567 --> 00:03:17,772 ♪ I hope you find some paradise ♪ 72 00:03:21,409 --> 00:03:24,545 (slow music continues) 73 00:03:30,284 --> 00:03:33,387 (slow music continues) 74 00:03:39,126 --> 00:03:42,263 (slow music continues) 75 00:03:48,135 --> 00:03:50,071 - We are going to welcome Pastor Bobbie 76 00:03:50,104 --> 00:03:52,807 as she comes to bring the word, but before we do that, 77 00:03:53,708 --> 00:03:56,110 we are going to watch an important announcement 78 00:03:56,143 --> 00:03:58,546 from Pastor Brian and Bobbie, and so come on, 79 00:03:58,579 --> 00:04:01,048 let's together watch this important announcement. 80 00:04:03,250 --> 00:04:05,953 - Well, hi, church, it's been an unexpected season, 81 00:04:05,987 --> 00:04:09,190 and we're thankful for you all 82 00:04:09,223 --> 00:04:13,127 and for the incredible sense of community we share. 83 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,163 As you know, I received unexpected news of charges 84 00:04:16,197 --> 00:04:19,567 against me that allege the concealing of information 85 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,204 that may have been material to prosecute Frank Houston. 86 00:04:23,237 --> 00:04:26,540 These allegations came as a complete shock to me, 87 00:04:26,574 --> 00:04:30,511 and it's my intention to vigorously defend them. 88 00:04:30,544 --> 00:04:32,546 But recently, we made a decision 89 00:04:32,580 --> 00:04:35,216 that may come as a big surprise to you, 90 00:04:35,249 --> 00:04:38,285 and I wanted you to hear it from me directly. 91 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:42,023 Hillsong's external legal counsel gave the board advice 92 00:04:42,056 --> 00:04:45,226 regarding the current charge I'm facing, 93 00:04:45,259 --> 00:04:47,128 and that it would be best practice 94 00:04:47,161 --> 00:04:49,530 for me to step aside completely 95 00:04:49,563 --> 00:04:53,267 from church leadership during the court proceedings. 96 00:04:53,300 --> 00:04:57,872 So it's likely to be drawn out and take up most of 2022. 97 00:04:58,906 --> 00:05:01,242 I intend to fight the charge, 98 00:05:01,275 --> 00:05:04,912 and I welcome the opportunity to set the record straight. 99 00:05:04,945 --> 00:05:06,947 It's important to note, Bobbie intends 100 00:05:06,981 --> 00:05:09,583 to stay fully engaged in church life. 101 00:05:09,617 --> 00:05:12,086 (slow orchestral music) 102 00:05:12,119 --> 00:05:13,387 - [David] In most realms, 103 00:05:13,421 --> 00:05:16,390 if a CEO is facing a criminal charge, 104 00:05:16,424 --> 00:05:19,060 naturally they step aside, that's just good governance. 105 00:05:20,561 --> 00:05:21,696 The confounding thing here is 106 00:05:21,729 --> 00:05:24,899 that Hillsong's never been subject to good governance. 107 00:05:26,334 --> 00:05:29,203 So the fact that he stepped aside meant 108 00:05:29,236 --> 00:05:31,505 that there was absolutely other elements at play. 109 00:05:32,340 --> 00:05:33,541 - [Bobbie] Smiling, (laughs) yeah. 110 00:05:33,574 --> 00:05:34,942 - It'll be great. 111 00:05:34,976 --> 00:05:36,210 Wherever you guys are around the world, 112 00:05:36,243 --> 00:05:37,511 I pray you'll have a great Sunday. 113 00:05:37,545 --> 00:05:39,347 Thank you. - [Bobbie] Thank you. 114 00:05:39,380 --> 00:05:43,384 (slow orchestral music continues) 115 00:05:43,417 --> 00:05:45,586 - One month after Brian's announcement, 116 00:05:45,619 --> 00:05:47,855 I turned on my computer in the morning. 117 00:05:47,888 --> 00:05:51,459 There was an email and it said "Anonymous tip. 118 00:05:51,492 --> 00:05:54,962 Something big is happening in Hillsong, please call me." 119 00:05:54,996 --> 00:05:56,230 (lively orchestral music) 120 00:05:56,263 --> 00:05:58,132 When I called that person, they told me 121 00:05:58,165 --> 00:06:02,837 that something was going down this week with Brian Houston. 122 00:06:03,604 --> 00:06:05,239 A new problem had come to light, 123 00:06:05,272 --> 00:06:08,909 and a few influential leaders of the church were upset. 124 00:06:12,113 --> 00:06:15,216 The fact that I was in touch with a source was a big deal. 125 00:06:15,249 --> 00:06:19,520 Hillsong is protecting itself nearly all the time (laughs) 126 00:06:19,553 --> 00:06:22,556 because churches like Hillsong and people like the Houstons, 127 00:06:22,590 --> 00:06:25,226 they thrive on opaque systems. 128 00:06:25,259 --> 00:06:28,229 They don't want anybody really knowing what's going on. 129 00:06:30,631 --> 00:06:32,900 - Why is it hard for people 130 00:06:32,933 --> 00:06:34,602 to speak out against Hillsong Church? 131 00:06:34,635 --> 00:06:36,937 Because they've signed NDAs, (laughs) that's why. 132 00:06:38,539 --> 00:06:43,044 We signed such an ironclad NDA that kind of eliminated our- 133 00:06:43,077 --> 00:06:43,878 - [Interviewer] Just gonna put that on the record, 134 00:06:43,911 --> 00:06:45,880 you do not need to talk about that. 135 00:06:45,913 --> 00:06:48,349 - It does feel, it does feel off. 136 00:06:48,382 --> 00:06:52,053 It does feel like, you know, 137 00:06:52,086 --> 00:06:54,288 people should be able to say what they need to say. 138 00:06:54,322 --> 00:06:56,123 (slow orchestral music) 139 00:06:56,157 --> 00:06:57,892 - God wants to be able to trust you. 140 00:06:59,093 --> 00:07:00,928 - Why does a church need an NDA? 141 00:07:03,597 --> 00:07:06,967 The megachurch is a giant corporation. 142 00:07:08,402 --> 00:07:10,071 They're employing hundreds of people. 143 00:07:10,104 --> 00:07:12,006 They're taking in millions of dollars. 144 00:07:12,039 --> 00:07:14,175 They're managing hundreds of thousands 145 00:07:14,208 --> 00:07:15,910 of square feet of property. 146 00:07:17,611 --> 00:07:19,547 As an organization, you start going, 147 00:07:19,580 --> 00:07:22,316 "Well, how do we protect ourselves?" 148 00:07:22,350 --> 00:07:26,087 And the models that you adopt come from the corporate world. 149 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,091 You start building an HR process like any other corporation. 150 00:07:30,124 --> 00:07:33,260 You start hiring lawyers like any other corporation, 151 00:07:33,294 --> 00:07:34,962 and it just goes on down the list. 152 00:07:38,499 --> 00:07:42,136 - Some people would say that's standard for a business. 153 00:07:42,169 --> 00:07:44,405 I don't know if it's becoming standard for churches. 154 00:07:46,107 --> 00:07:47,908 - Because they've adopted the corporate model, 155 00:07:47,942 --> 00:07:50,544 they've adopted these corporate safeguards. 156 00:07:50,578 --> 00:07:53,214 Now, of course they're not protecting trade secrets. 157 00:07:54,582 --> 00:07:56,384 That's where it gets really troubling. 158 00:07:57,418 --> 00:07:58,552 What are they protecting? 159 00:08:03,224 --> 00:08:05,793 (slow music) 160 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:12,466 - When you probe deeper, 161 00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:18,039 you find that there has been a building resentment 162 00:08:18,072 --> 00:08:21,876 towards the old boys' club that runs Hillsong. 163 00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:26,414 That building resentment revealed, I think, 164 00:08:26,447 --> 00:08:30,918 the seeds ultimately for the destruction of Brain Houston. 165 00:08:32,453 --> 00:08:36,424 It all really kicked off at Hillsong College. 166 00:08:39,527 --> 00:08:43,297 (slow rhythmic music) 167 00:08:43,331 --> 00:08:45,199 - Within the first week, when everyone's arrived to start, 168 00:08:45,232 --> 00:08:47,968 they interviewed us individually. 169 00:08:48,002 --> 00:08:51,205 - They would bring us into a room of about 20 pastors, 170 00:08:51,238 --> 00:08:53,541 and just with a single chair facing each other. 171 00:08:53,574 --> 00:08:55,443 - It was actually kind of intimidating. 172 00:08:56,978 --> 00:08:58,212 - We were being told 173 00:08:58,245 --> 00:09:00,247 we were doing a working with children's check. 174 00:09:00,281 --> 00:09:02,249 We had to tell them 175 00:09:03,985 --> 00:09:06,420 kind of all of our deepest, darkest secrets, really. 176 00:09:07,955 --> 00:09:10,925 Have you masturbated in the last year? 177 00:09:10,958 --> 00:09:13,427 Have you had sex in the last year? 178 00:09:13,461 --> 00:09:14,595 Have you ever hallucinated 179 00:09:14,628 --> 00:09:16,230 that a demon was standing right there, 180 00:09:16,263 --> 00:09:17,898 or have you ever seen one? 181 00:09:17,932 --> 00:09:19,934 - You're not meant to get new tattoos. 182 00:09:19,967 --> 00:09:21,068 You're not meant to date. 183 00:09:22,336 --> 00:09:24,572 Obviously you're not meant to be gay. 184 00:09:24,605 --> 00:09:26,340 It could potentially mean 185 00:09:26,374 --> 00:09:28,075 that you can't be in college anymore. 186 00:09:30,911 --> 00:09:34,115 - You learn how to keep secrets then, because you're like, 187 00:09:34,148 --> 00:09:36,951 no one in here has looked at porn ever, really? 188 00:09:36,984 --> 00:09:39,587 Okay, well, me neither. 189 00:09:39,620 --> 00:09:44,358 Nobody in here thought lustfully about a woman all month? 190 00:09:44,392 --> 00:09:46,293 Me neither, 'cause otherwise, 191 00:09:46,327 --> 00:09:48,295 they're going to start looking at you like, 192 00:09:48,329 --> 00:09:50,431 "This guy probably isn't cut out for ministry." 193 00:09:51,966 --> 00:09:54,135 - I thought, I want to be a truthful person, 194 00:09:54,168 --> 00:09:55,936 and nothing bad can come from the truth, right? 195 00:09:55,970 --> 00:09:58,272 Like, the truth should set you free. 196 00:09:59,407 --> 00:10:00,941 "Have you ever watched porn?" 197 00:10:00,975 --> 00:10:02,209 I said, "Yes." 198 00:10:02,243 --> 00:10:04,345 "Have you masturbated in the last six months?" 199 00:10:04,378 --> 00:10:05,946 I said, "Yes." 200 00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:07,948 "Have you had sex in the last year?" 201 00:10:07,982 --> 00:10:09,517 I said, "Yes." 202 00:10:09,550 --> 00:10:11,485 - When they would write all that down on a little iPad, 203 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:13,220 and then immediately afterwards, 204 00:10:13,254 --> 00:10:16,290 you would get your working with children's check tag 205 00:10:16,324 --> 00:10:18,526 and you have to put it on, and if you had a red dot, 206 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,395 everyone who sees you in the church knows that, 207 00:10:22,463 --> 00:10:24,432 you know, you're struggling. 208 00:10:25,466 --> 00:10:26,934 You were blacklisted. 209 00:10:31,372 --> 00:10:35,810 - I hadn't even told anyone that I thought I might be gay 210 00:10:35,843 --> 00:10:38,112 when I came to college, but back then, 211 00:10:38,145 --> 00:10:41,382 it's like you're struggling with homosexuality. 212 00:10:41,415 --> 00:10:43,284 That language was really important, you know? 213 00:10:43,317 --> 00:10:45,953 It's not something that you are, it's a behavior, 214 00:10:45,987 --> 00:10:48,055 and therefore it's something you can change. 215 00:10:50,524 --> 00:10:52,927 - My mission was to be a drummer. 216 00:10:54,128 --> 00:10:55,896 I've been volunteering my heart out for the past two years. 217 00:10:55,930 --> 00:10:57,298 I've been working 60 hour weeks. 218 00:10:57,331 --> 00:10:59,467 I've been putting my effort in, putting my dues in. 219 00:11:01,602 --> 00:11:05,272 I was shortlisted to go to Indonesia for a tour, 220 00:11:05,306 --> 00:11:06,374 and I was gonna get it. 221 00:11:08,376 --> 00:11:12,413 Then a senior staff member approached me 222 00:11:12,446 --> 00:11:14,548 and asked some questions 223 00:11:14,582 --> 00:11:16,817 that I've never, ever shared with him. 224 00:11:19,453 --> 00:11:22,223 Turns out they had written in my permanent file 225 00:11:22,256 --> 00:11:24,558 that I had a homosexual experience when I was younger, 226 00:11:24,592 --> 00:11:28,396 which didn't happen, and I, (sighs) 227 00:11:30,965 --> 00:11:33,968 which wasn't, it was actually a molestation 228 00:11:34,001 --> 00:11:35,970 from my old church that I went to. 229 00:11:38,973 --> 00:11:40,541 He said, "Nope, you're not gonna be able 230 00:11:40,574 --> 00:11:42,910 to come on tour or any other tours." 231 00:11:44,145 --> 00:11:46,047 And after that conversation, 232 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,550 I knew I will never progress further than this. 233 00:11:50,751 --> 00:11:54,055 As soon as homosexuality comes up, they shake their head, 234 00:11:54,088 --> 00:11:56,257 and, "No," like, can't, you can't. 235 00:11:57,558 --> 00:12:00,394 - I couldn't handle the guilt of being gay. 236 00:12:01,962 --> 00:12:04,231 I ended up coming to a teacher who I trusted. 237 00:12:04,265 --> 00:12:07,234 They asked me to start coming into the offices 238 00:12:07,268 --> 00:12:09,937 and to see a counselor that they had just hired 239 00:12:09,971 --> 00:12:13,240 so that I can stop having these tendencies to love women. 240 00:12:14,375 --> 00:12:15,576 Counseling with the purpose 241 00:12:15,609 --> 00:12:20,915 of figuring out why you may be gay 242 00:12:22,083 --> 00:12:25,353 is now what we know as a soft version of conversion therapy, 243 00:12:25,386 --> 00:12:27,021 and it's dangerous. 244 00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:33,794 - We, as college students, were penalized for being human, 245 00:12:35,096 --> 00:12:39,729 penalized for, (sighs) yeah. 246 00:12:39,934 --> 00:12:43,004 (slow music continues) 247 00:12:45,906 --> 00:12:47,875 (slow orchestral music) 248 00:12:50,953 --> 00:12:53,256 - Having grown up in the Hillsong movement, 249 00:12:55,058 --> 00:12:56,426 I feel it is a responsibility for Christians to stand up 250 00:12:56,459 --> 00:12:58,961 and actually start speaking out against the abuse, 251 00:13:00,263 --> 00:13:03,499 so I started up a website called ChurchWatch. 252 00:13:03,533 --> 00:13:08,071 (slow orchestral music continues) 253 00:13:08,104 --> 00:13:09,872 My focus wasn't just on Frank, 254 00:13:09,906 --> 00:13:12,275 it was Hillsong and its history, as well. 255 00:13:12,308 --> 00:13:15,878 I was encouraging a whole bunch of people to work in there, 256 00:13:15,912 --> 00:13:17,914 to share their stories and information. 257 00:13:17,947 --> 00:13:20,149 I was hoping because it was so well-reasoned 258 00:13:20,183 --> 00:13:21,317 that a lot of Christians 259 00:13:21,351 --> 00:13:23,152 for the first time could understand the way 260 00:13:23,186 --> 00:13:25,088 that Hillsong has conducted itself. 261 00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:30,126 I had to do this anonymously for the last 12 years. 262 00:13:31,994 --> 00:13:36,199 - For so many years, we were all isolated and disconnected, 263 00:13:36,232 --> 00:13:40,303 any of us who had not had a positive experience at Hillsong, 264 00:13:40,336 --> 00:13:44,006 and it wasn't until sites like Facebook became available 265 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,641 for people to connect and realize 266 00:13:45,675 --> 00:13:47,977 that they had quite similar 267 00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:51,147 if not identical experiences to each other, 268 00:13:51,180 --> 00:13:53,816 and that they weren't the problem, the system was. 269 00:13:56,285 --> 00:13:59,422 - There's a Facebook page with a lot, a lot of us, 270 00:14:00,623 --> 00:14:02,158 and it actually happened by accident. 271 00:14:02,191 --> 00:14:05,895 Someone posted something a little bit controversial 272 00:14:05,928 --> 00:14:09,565 on the main Hillsong College page, 273 00:14:09,599 --> 00:14:11,434 and College immediately replied 274 00:14:13,169 --> 00:14:15,104 and took the post down and started censoring all of us. 275 00:14:16,339 --> 00:14:18,007 And so someone made a support group. 276 00:14:18,941 --> 00:14:22,578 Within one week, we had over 300, 400 members, 277 00:14:22,612 --> 00:14:24,180 and people sharing their stories 278 00:14:24,213 --> 00:14:25,481 and getting healing from it. 279 00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:32,155 - The group on Facebook started, 280 00:14:32,188 --> 00:14:34,424 and it was really when my perspective changed. 281 00:14:36,025 --> 00:14:39,429 It gave me the chance to say my piece 282 00:14:39,462 --> 00:14:42,432 and for other people to come along and say, 283 00:14:42,465 --> 00:14:43,933 "That's actually not okay. 284 00:14:43,966 --> 00:14:46,169 Like, those things are not acceptable." 285 00:14:48,271 --> 00:14:50,106 - We've been hearing about people 286 00:14:50,139 --> 00:14:53,242 who've been coming out of the Hillsong movement 287 00:14:53,276 --> 00:14:55,611 who've been deeply wounded, who've been rejected. 288 00:14:57,647 --> 00:14:58,514 You're supposed to act a certain way 289 00:14:58,548 --> 00:15:00,416 and think a certain way and filter it 290 00:15:00,450 --> 00:15:05,254 through all these particular doctrines and beliefs. 291 00:15:05,288 --> 00:15:06,589 I look back now and go, 292 00:15:06,622 --> 00:15:08,925 "I can't believe I put myself through that." 293 00:15:10,326 --> 00:15:13,262 - Hillsong had a real fluency and mastery 294 00:15:13,296 --> 00:15:15,098 of some of the pop culture 295 00:15:15,131 --> 00:15:17,400 and social media levers of the day. 296 00:15:17,433 --> 00:15:19,268 - [Speaker] A decade later, 297 00:15:19,302 --> 00:15:22,338 those same tools were used by ex-congregants and students 298 00:15:22,372 --> 00:15:24,407 to tell a very different story. 299 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,943 This time, they cracked open the Hillsong facade. 300 00:15:29,278 --> 00:15:32,648 - Over the years, I think people felt much more safer 301 00:15:32,682 --> 00:15:37,487 to start to criticize on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. 302 00:15:39,288 --> 00:15:42,859 - And so you get from the Hillsong College 303 00:15:42,892 --> 00:15:45,895 and social media kind of a Me Too movement 304 00:15:45,928 --> 00:15:48,464 against Hillsong in Australia. 305 00:15:48,498 --> 00:15:52,268 The whole Anna Crenshaw Hillsong College episode 306 00:15:52,301 --> 00:15:53,569 really did erupt, actually, 307 00:15:53,603 --> 00:15:55,271 and blow up in the face of Hillsong. 308 00:15:56,973 --> 00:15:58,408 (heart beats) 309 00:15:58,441 --> 00:15:59,575 - [Speaker] Anna Crenshaw first told her story 310 00:15:59,609 --> 00:16:00,977 to "Vanity Fair." 311 00:16:04,313 --> 00:16:08,918 She was groped by a young Hillsong staffer named Jason Mays. 312 00:16:09,585 --> 00:16:10,520 (slow ominous music) 313 00:16:10,553 --> 00:16:12,455 - When she complained about it, 314 00:16:12,488 --> 00:16:16,959 the whole protective mechanism of Hillsong College swung in. 315 00:16:18,327 --> 00:16:19,996 She was kind of given a pat on the head 316 00:16:20,029 --> 00:16:22,265 and told to kind of get on with things. 317 00:16:22,298 --> 00:16:24,267 - [Speaker] Hillsong tried to make it go away, 318 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:25,968 so she went to the police 319 00:16:26,002 --> 00:16:28,638 and pressed charges against Jason Mays. 320 00:16:28,671 --> 00:16:31,474 Mays wound up pleading guilty to indecent assault, 321 00:16:31,507 --> 00:16:33,376 and he received two years' probation 322 00:16:33,409 --> 00:16:34,977 and mandatory counseling. 323 00:16:36,112 --> 00:16:38,614 This is one of those cases where the law sided with Anna, 324 00:16:38,648 --> 00:16:41,284 but Brian Houston and Hillsong really came 325 00:16:41,317 --> 00:16:42,952 to Jason's rescue. 326 00:16:42,985 --> 00:16:45,922 - I found out from LinkedIn 327 00:16:45,955 --> 00:16:50,059 that he was given a better job during that time. 328 00:16:51,994 --> 00:16:53,930 - [Speaker] Hillsong seemed anxious to forgive and forget, 329 00:16:53,963 --> 00:16:56,366 but Anna decided to go to the press. 330 00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:57,967 - You know, I felt like 331 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,270 I was the one who was in trouble, not him. 332 00:17:01,304 --> 00:17:03,272 - [Reporter] The Crenshaws believe Jason Mays 333 00:17:03,306 --> 00:17:05,475 was given preferential treatment 334 00:17:05,508 --> 00:17:09,946 because his father is Hillsong's head of Human Resources. 335 00:17:11,481 --> 00:17:14,984 - We're not talking about a sexual predator here. 336 00:17:15,018 --> 00:17:19,022 We're talking about a young man, young married man, 337 00:17:19,055 --> 00:17:21,958 who did something stupid, got much drunker than he should, 338 00:17:21,991 --> 00:17:24,594 which is an issue we've got to keep addressing, 339 00:17:24,627 --> 00:17:29,465 and got himself in a bad situation, that's it. 340 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,902 - He said that Jason was just in a bad situation, 341 00:17:32,935 --> 00:17:35,438 as if something happened to Jason. 342 00:17:36,973 --> 00:17:38,941 - These factors of discrimination, 343 00:17:38,975 --> 00:17:41,978 the lack of justice, kind of coalesced 344 00:17:42,011 --> 00:17:44,981 to produce some real anger and a real backlash, 345 00:17:45,581 --> 00:17:48,117 people who are of a generation 346 00:17:48,151 --> 00:17:50,453 that is prepared not to just go along with it, 347 00:17:50,486 --> 00:17:54,157 but actually to make sure the voice is somehow heard. 348 00:17:55,458 --> 00:17:57,560 Whoever has engineered the anonymous tips 349 00:17:57,593 --> 00:18:01,064 to me really wanted to underline the hypocrisy 350 00:18:01,097 --> 00:18:02,498 of what Brian did, 351 00:18:02,532 --> 00:18:05,234 that while he's telling everybody else to be perfect, 352 00:18:05,268 --> 00:18:07,003 Brian's holding this secret. 353 00:18:10,973 --> 00:18:12,341 (slow music) 354 00:18:12,375 --> 00:18:14,577 - I think the fact that a church in Australia is blessed, 355 00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:16,479 God's blessing us, it's growing, 356 00:18:16,512 --> 00:18:18,581 it's got momentum, it's got movement, 357 00:18:18,614 --> 00:18:21,417 man, it makes some people out there so angry. 358 00:18:21,451 --> 00:18:23,386 - Towards the beginning of 2020, 359 00:18:23,419 --> 00:18:25,555 before Hillsong became the subject 360 00:18:25,588 --> 00:18:30,293 of this international media conflagration, 361 00:18:30,326 --> 00:18:31,861 (slow dramatic music) 362 00:18:31,894 --> 00:18:33,129 two men got together to play golf. 363 00:18:34,163 --> 00:18:36,466 (slow music) 364 00:18:39,135 --> 00:18:41,304 They had both been Hillsong congregants, 365 00:18:41,337 --> 00:18:43,439 but one of them had left the church recently. 366 00:18:45,675 --> 00:18:48,411 The man who hadn't left the church started asking his friend 367 00:18:48,444 --> 00:18:50,980 what happened, what had gone wrong? 368 00:18:51,013 --> 00:18:53,916 The man revealed that his mother had had an encounter 369 00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:56,486 with Brian Houston in a hotel room in Sydney, 370 00:18:58,988 --> 00:19:00,456 and he produced the confidentiality agreement 371 00:19:00,490 --> 00:19:02,925 that his mother had signed. 372 00:19:05,061 --> 00:19:07,597 After these two men played golf, the man 373 00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:10,933 who hadn't left the church called a spiritual mentor, 374 00:19:10,967 --> 00:19:13,436 concerned about what he had just learned, 375 00:19:13,469 --> 00:19:15,471 and his mentor immediately believed the story 376 00:19:15,505 --> 00:19:18,107 because his wife had in fact had a similar experience. 377 00:19:20,343 --> 00:19:23,179 About a decade earlier, Brian had been sending text messages 378 00:19:23,212 --> 00:19:26,416 to her that made her feel increasingly uncomfortable. 379 00:19:26,449 --> 00:19:28,951 She also signed a confidentiality agreement. 380 00:19:30,453 --> 00:19:32,488 - [Speaker] So you have material that was supposed 381 00:19:32,522 --> 00:19:36,859 to be sealed under an NDA that turns into gossip 382 00:19:36,893 --> 00:19:39,429 that circulates around the church that reporters hear. 383 00:19:43,332 --> 00:19:45,268 - My source said that Brian 384 00:19:45,301 --> 00:19:48,104 and Hillsong had paid out hush money to the two women 385 00:19:48,137 --> 00:19:51,974 and that they had signed nondisclosure agreements, 386 00:19:52,008 --> 00:19:59,095 and that word of this had now got to the elders, 387 00:19:59,129 --> 00:20:02,465 and one elder in particular, Dr. Gordon Lee, 388 00:20:02,499 --> 00:20:03,967 was very worked up about this. 389 00:20:05,335 --> 00:20:07,003 Dr. Gordon Lee was the physician 390 00:20:07,037 --> 00:20:10,840 who signed off on the idea that Frank had dementia. 391 00:20:12,776 --> 00:20:15,111 - It seems at this point Brian has become more 392 00:20:15,145 --> 00:20:17,948 of a liability than an asset. 393 00:20:17,981 --> 00:20:19,983 - [Alex] So for someone like Gordon Lee, 394 00:20:20,016 --> 00:20:22,452 who had really stuck by Brian's side for a long time, 395 00:20:22,485 --> 00:20:24,154 there's only so much you can do. 396 00:20:25,488 --> 00:20:28,825 - Gordon Lee began speaking to donors 397 00:20:28,858 --> 00:20:31,194 about Brian Houston's transgressions. 398 00:20:33,163 --> 00:20:34,998 There was this mounting tension 399 00:20:35,031 --> 00:20:37,767 that was threatening the bottom line in a very direct way. 400 00:20:39,736 --> 00:20:42,973 The source told me that there was going 401 00:20:43,006 --> 00:20:46,109 to be a major meeting, and it was gonna be on Zoom. 402 00:20:46,142 --> 00:20:50,914 They offered to get me a recording of the entire meeting, 403 00:20:52,349 --> 00:20:54,117 and that is indeed what happened. 404 00:20:55,151 --> 00:20:58,989 (slow ominous music) 405 00:20:59,022 --> 00:20:59,789 - So, 406 00:21:01,291 --> 00:21:03,994 I have the responsibility 407 00:21:04,027 --> 00:21:07,831 of sharing with you some news. 408 00:21:08,765 --> 00:21:13,136 There are two incidents involving Pastor Brian 409 00:21:13,169 --> 00:21:17,107 that as a board we have had to deal with. 410 00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:21,978 The first incident involved Pastor Brian text messaging 411 00:21:23,747 --> 00:21:27,784 with a female member of staff along the lines of, 412 00:21:29,152 --> 00:21:30,820 "If I was with you, I'd like to give you a kiss 413 00:21:30,854 --> 00:21:33,757 and a cuddle, or a hug," words of that nature. 414 00:21:35,392 --> 00:21:40,130 That particular staff member was obviously upset by that. 415 00:21:42,199 --> 00:21:44,768 - The text messages Brian had been sending led the woman 416 00:21:44,801 --> 00:21:45,936 to resign from her job. 417 00:21:45,969 --> 00:21:49,372 - This particular staff member came back 418 00:21:49,406 --> 00:21:51,708 'cause she couldn't get work. 419 00:21:51,741 --> 00:21:52,776 - Hillsong leaders set up a meeting with her, 420 00:21:52,809 --> 00:21:55,478 and they asked her what she wanted 421 00:21:55,512 --> 00:21:57,414 to sort of make all this go away, 422 00:21:57,447 --> 00:21:59,149 and she said that she just wanted 423 00:21:59,182 --> 00:22:02,852 to be paid the salary she had lost since she had resigned. 424 00:22:02,886 --> 00:22:05,789 And they said, "Instead, how about $25,000 425 00:22:05,822 --> 00:22:07,991 and a confidentiality agreement?" 426 00:22:08,024 --> 00:22:11,494 - Pastor Brian said, "I want to pay that personally 427 00:22:11,528 --> 00:22:14,831 'cause I don't think it's fair on the church to pay that." 428 00:22:14,864 --> 00:22:18,435 - That secret was kept for 10 years inside the organization 429 00:22:18,468 --> 00:22:20,971 and known apparently to only two people. 430 00:22:21,004 --> 00:22:23,406 - Personally I was not aware of that, 431 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,244 as was the majority of the global board. 432 00:22:27,277 --> 00:22:29,279 - Spool forward to 2019, 433 00:22:31,014 --> 00:22:33,950 there's Brian's 40 minutes inside the hotel room 434 00:22:33,984 --> 00:22:37,187 of a woman who was a supporter of Hillsong. 435 00:22:37,220 --> 00:22:38,855 Brian's said to be drunk. 436 00:22:38,889 --> 00:22:42,292 Brian's said not to have had his key to his room, 437 00:22:42,325 --> 00:22:44,394 found himself knocking on her door, 438 00:22:44,427 --> 00:22:46,429 found himself inside there. 439 00:22:46,463 --> 00:22:48,298 (slow ominous music continues) 440 00:22:48,331 --> 00:22:52,903 - Brian has said there was no sexual activity, 441 00:22:52,936 --> 00:22:57,107 but he was in the room for 40 minutes. 442 00:22:57,140 --> 00:23:01,144 He doesn't have much of a recollection because of, he says, 443 00:23:01,177 --> 00:23:05,115 the mixture of the anxiety tablets and the alcohol. 444 00:23:07,384 --> 00:23:10,320 - The woman complained, ah, what did they do? 445 00:23:10,353 --> 00:23:13,890 They returned her donation 446 00:23:13,924 --> 00:23:17,928 and her conference fees, the minimum possible. 447 00:23:19,162 --> 00:23:22,766 - Again, Pastor Brian with remorse said, 448 00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:25,235 "I don't want the church to have to pay that. 449 00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:28,672 I will personally pay that." 450 00:23:29,606 --> 00:23:33,310 These allegations were treated very seriously, 451 00:23:35,178 --> 00:23:39,115 and I believe, you know, real significant steps were taken 452 00:23:40,150 --> 00:23:42,485 to investigate and resolve them. 453 00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:44,854 - Again, we have this same old pattern. 454 00:23:46,056 --> 00:23:48,825 We have an investigation team appointed. 455 00:23:48,858 --> 00:23:51,828 The investigation team is meant to be independent. 456 00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:54,164 When you look more closely, you find out 457 00:23:54,197 --> 00:23:57,000 that three of the four are old mates of Brian, 458 00:23:57,033 --> 00:24:01,271 and so we have a Hillsong-curated version of those events. 459 00:24:01,304 --> 00:24:04,274 The women involved had no voice. 460 00:24:04,307 --> 00:24:06,810 - The decision was made to offer, 461 00:24:07,978 --> 00:24:09,346 I suppose, what I would call grace, 462 00:24:11,514 --> 00:24:15,685 and not to cover up, but to not expose. 463 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,256 - The source told me that they 464 00:24:19,289 --> 00:24:21,958 and others were determined this time 465 00:24:21,992 --> 00:24:24,995 that Hillsong would not control the narrative, 466 00:24:25,028 --> 00:24:28,265 and that's why they wanted to leak the entire audio 467 00:24:28,298 --> 00:24:29,966 of the meeting to me. 468 00:24:31,234 --> 00:24:32,969 - And I would hope that, 469 00:24:33,003 --> 00:24:35,739 I don't know if people are recording this, 470 00:24:35,772 --> 00:24:38,275 I would hope not. (laughs) 471 00:24:38,308 --> 00:24:40,277 - Within five minutes of that meeting finished, 472 00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:43,480 I had a file and was able to write a report, 473 00:24:43,513 --> 00:24:45,949 which I got out in about 30 minutes. 474 00:24:49,219 --> 00:24:52,422 It was the day that Houston lost Hillsong. 475 00:24:52,455 --> 00:24:55,725 It was also the day Hillsong lost control of the narrative. 476 00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:06,403 (slow music) 477 00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:09,239 - Brian could say that Carl's bad behavior 478 00:25:09,272 --> 00:25:09,868 was just a Hillsong New York problem. 479 00:25:09,901 --> 00:25:11,636 - There were leadership issues. 480 00:25:11,670 --> 00:25:13,872 - And he had no idea about his father's transgressions. 481 00:25:13,905 --> 00:25:17,943 - These allegations came as a complete shock to me, 482 00:25:17,976 --> 00:25:21,546 and it's my intention to vigorously defend them. 483 00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:25,450 - [Alex] But I really wonder how Brian explains 484 00:25:25,483 --> 00:25:28,053 away paying hush money for his own bad behavior. 485 00:25:30,388 --> 00:25:33,558 - It's a fall from grace of biblical proportions. 486 00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:37,762 Brian Houston's 45-year reign as head 487 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:41,867 of the huge Hillsong Church has come to a shocking end. 488 00:25:43,668 --> 00:25:46,771 - Brian Houston has quit the megachurch following 489 00:25:46,805 --> 00:25:49,007 an internal investigation revealing inappropriate behavior 490 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,976 towards two women. 491 00:25:51,009 --> 00:25:52,410 - [Reporter] The announcement was made 492 00:25:52,444 --> 00:25:54,479 at an emergency meeting yesterday. 493 00:25:54,513 --> 00:25:56,581 - Dear church, we would like to advise you 494 00:25:56,615 --> 00:25:58,884 that Pastor Brian Houston has resigned 495 00:25:58,917 --> 00:26:02,053 as global senior pastor of Hillsong Church, 496 00:26:02,087 --> 00:26:04,623 and the board has accepted his resignation. 497 00:26:06,458 --> 00:26:10,529 We understand there will be much emotion at this news, 498 00:26:10,562 --> 00:26:12,364 and we all share these feelings. 499 00:26:14,966 --> 00:26:18,403 - Suddenly we got a very, very different picture of Brian, 500 00:26:19,938 --> 00:26:24,442 so I think it cracked open wide the whole edifice of trust, 501 00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:27,412 the whole edifice of Brian knowing best. 502 00:26:27,445 --> 00:26:30,615 It just disappeared in a moment. 503 00:26:31,917 --> 00:26:33,385 - Hillsong Church was birthed out 504 00:26:33,418 --> 00:26:35,987 of Brian and Bobbie's obedience and commitment 505 00:26:36,021 --> 00:26:38,957 to the call of God, and we are extremely grateful 506 00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:43,428 for all that Brian and Bobbie have given to build his house. 507 00:26:43,461 --> 00:26:44,830 - Resign? 508 00:26:44,863 --> 00:26:46,364 (both laughing) 509 00:26:46,398 --> 00:26:48,366 - Like, sure, of his own free will, sure. 510 00:26:52,571 --> 00:26:55,373 - When Brian's resignation was announced, 511 00:26:55,407 --> 00:26:56,641 one thing that stood out is 512 00:26:56,675 --> 00:26:58,410 that we didn't actually hear directly from him. 513 00:27:00,145 --> 00:27:04,416 He emails a pro forma apology to Hillsong congregants, 514 00:27:04,449 --> 00:27:07,552 but as far as what he presented to the public, 515 00:27:08,787 --> 00:27:10,722 it's really just a few social media posts 516 00:27:10,755 --> 00:27:13,491 and effectively pleas for sympathy. 517 00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:15,861 Then he does what his father did, 518 00:27:17,429 --> 00:27:18,897 instead of address these matters in public, 519 00:27:18,930 --> 00:27:20,031 he goes on vacation. 520 00:27:20,065 --> 00:27:23,802 (slow orchestral music) 521 00:27:23,835 --> 00:27:27,405 (scooter engines revving) 522 00:27:29,508 --> 00:27:31,376 But at Hillsong, the wheels really fall off. 523 00:27:32,677 --> 00:27:34,112 The US branches start shuttering. 524 00:27:34,145 --> 00:27:37,415 Even the people who this place was set up 525 00:27:38,383 --> 00:27:40,352 to really benefit were starting to jump ship, 526 00:27:41,686 --> 00:27:43,889 such as Hillsong Phoenix Pastor Terry Crist. 527 00:27:43,922 --> 00:27:46,424 - Let's build a culture where truth can be told 528 00:27:46,458 --> 00:27:49,928 without fear of repercussion, (congregation applauds) 529 00:27:49,961 --> 00:27:52,531 without NDAs and non-competes. 530 00:27:54,766 --> 00:27:57,035 - [Dan] Hillsong Atlanta Pastor Sam Collier. 531 00:27:57,068 --> 00:27:59,538 - People don't come to church for scandal. 532 00:27:59,571 --> 00:28:01,873 They come to church to have a safe place. 533 00:28:01,907 --> 00:28:05,343 - [Dan] Hillsong Boston Pastors Leona and Josh Kimes, 534 00:28:05,377 --> 00:28:07,345 as well as prominent members of the board. 535 00:28:08,213 --> 00:28:09,114 The music, which is really the calling card 536 00:28:09,147 --> 00:28:10,615 of the church, takes a huge hit. 537 00:28:13,752 --> 00:28:16,988 - [Speaker] Worship leaders should strongly reconsider 538 00:28:17,022 --> 00:28:20,125 playing Hillsong music in their worship services. 539 00:28:20,158 --> 00:28:23,028 - Suddenly it wasn't so great 540 00:28:23,061 --> 00:28:26,331 for Scott Morrison to be friends with Brian Houston. 541 00:28:26,364 --> 00:28:27,866 - I mean, I haven't been at Hillsong now 542 00:28:27,899 --> 00:28:30,502 for over about 15 years. 543 00:28:30,535 --> 00:28:32,671 I go to a local church in my own community, 544 00:28:32,704 --> 00:28:34,973 a Pentecostal church, I think everybody knows that. 545 00:28:35,006 --> 00:28:37,776 - Who's in charge, who's running the board? 546 00:28:37,809 --> 00:28:40,879 Who's gonna be left to clean up all of the remaining messes? 547 00:28:40,912 --> 00:28:42,714 (congregation applauds) 548 00:28:42,747 --> 00:28:45,317 - Phil Dooley is trying to fill Brian Houston's shoes, 549 00:28:46,952 --> 00:28:48,420 but, you know, 550 00:28:50,622 --> 00:28:52,958 the beanie, the curly hair, 551 00:28:52,991 --> 00:28:55,794 I'm sorry, it's something of a pale imitation. 552 00:28:55,827 --> 00:28:57,963 He doesn't project the personal power of Brian Houston. 553 00:28:59,965 --> 00:29:03,034 - This is not necessarily an inspiring night, okay? 554 00:29:05,403 --> 00:29:10,509 (slow orchestral music continues) 555 00:29:10,542 --> 00:29:11,776 - [Interviewer] Why are you breaking your silence today? 556 00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:14,479 - So, I think it's safe to come out now, 557 00:29:15,947 --> 00:29:18,550 only because of what Hillsong is now going through, 558 00:29:19,985 --> 00:29:21,553 to actually stand up, pretty much. 559 00:29:23,088 --> 00:29:24,689 The Goliath is on its back. 560 00:29:24,723 --> 00:29:28,026 (slow music) 561 00:29:28,059 --> 00:29:29,461 - As the allegations and the stumbles 562 00:29:29,494 --> 00:29:32,030 within the church became more and more public, 563 00:29:32,063 --> 00:29:34,065 it made the reporting process a lot easier. 564 00:29:36,001 --> 00:29:37,602 More whistleblowers started to come forward. 565 00:29:39,104 --> 00:29:40,539 - [Reporter] For the first time, 566 00:29:40,572 --> 00:29:42,541 detailed allegations of financial impropriety 567 00:29:42,574 --> 00:29:45,710 by the megachurch have been made public thanks 568 00:29:45,744 --> 00:29:48,480 to a lawsuit brought in the federal court 569 00:29:48,513 --> 00:29:50,482 by the church's own bookkeeper. 570 00:29:52,517 --> 00:29:54,953 - [Dan] Natalie Moses observed an array 571 00:29:54,986 --> 00:29:57,422 of what she said were unethical accounting practices. 572 00:30:00,058 --> 00:30:01,526 - It always amazes me, 573 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,728 with all that our church is doing to help people, 574 00:30:05,497 --> 00:30:07,532 that some people can't look past my motorbike and a watch. 575 00:30:09,067 --> 00:30:11,770 Yes, I do have a nice watch, but I don't think that's a sign 576 00:30:11,803 --> 00:30:14,472 that I'm living this massively over-affluent life. 577 00:30:15,473 --> 00:30:18,877 (slow music continues) 578 00:30:18,910 --> 00:30:20,779 - [Dan] Natalie Moses tried to pursue internal methods, 579 00:30:20,812 --> 00:30:24,482 and when she was met with resistance, she was fired. 580 00:30:26,818 --> 00:30:29,521 - Natalie Moses claims she discovered a range 581 00:30:29,554 --> 00:30:32,390 of financial schemes, large cash gifts given 582 00:30:32,424 --> 00:30:33,592 to members of the church, 583 00:30:33,625 --> 00:30:35,360 including its founder Brian Houston, 584 00:30:36,962 --> 00:30:39,397 as well as the remittance of large sums of money overseas 585 00:30:39,431 --> 00:30:42,434 to avoid scrutiny by local regulators. 586 00:30:44,402 --> 00:30:46,104 - Churches aren't corporations, 587 00:30:46,137 --> 00:30:47,806 so they're not held to account 588 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:49,574 by the corporate regulator and shareholders. 589 00:30:49,608 --> 00:30:51,343 They're not government agencies, 590 00:30:51,376 --> 00:30:53,812 so they're not held to account by the sort of usual measures 591 00:30:53,845 --> 00:30:56,715 in politics that hold government agencies to account. 592 00:30:56,748 --> 00:30:58,116 They kind of live in their own space, 593 00:30:58,149 --> 00:30:59,818 and if there's something we've learned 594 00:30:59,851 --> 00:31:02,954 from the royal commission, it's that there's an expectation 595 00:31:02,988 --> 00:31:04,322 that something would happen. 596 00:31:05,991 --> 00:31:09,060 (slow music continues) 597 00:31:11,997 --> 00:31:13,532 But again, it became apparent 598 00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,435 that nothing was happening. 599 00:31:18,403 --> 00:31:21,473 (slow music continues) 600 00:31:36,521 --> 00:31:38,890 (slow piano music) 601 00:31:38,924 --> 00:31:39,925 - The member for Clark. 602 00:31:39,958 --> 00:31:41,726 - Thank you, Deputy Speaker. 603 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,563 Hillsong is breaking numerous laws in Australia 604 00:31:44,596 --> 00:31:46,598 and around the world relating to fraud, 605 00:31:46,631 --> 00:31:48,967 money laundering, and tax evasion. 606 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,404 For example, this document shows how in 2021, 607 00:31:53,772 --> 00:31:55,507 four members of the Houston family 608 00:31:55,540 --> 00:31:58,410 and their friends enjoyed a three day luxury retreat 609 00:31:58,443 --> 00:32:01,947 in Cancun, Mexico, using $150,000 of church money. 610 00:32:04,482 --> 00:32:06,651 And these documents show former leader 611 00:32:06,685 --> 00:32:09,421 Brian Houston treating private jets like Ubers, 612 00:32:09,454 --> 00:32:10,422 again, all with church money. 613 00:32:11,690 --> 00:32:13,758 Hillsong followers believed that the money 614 00:32:13,792 --> 00:32:16,394 they put in the poorbox goes to the poor, 615 00:32:16,428 --> 00:32:17,929 but these documents show how 616 00:32:17,963 --> 00:32:21,099 that money is actually used to do the kind of shopping 617 00:32:21,132 --> 00:32:23,034 that would embarrass a Kardashian, 618 00:32:23,068 --> 00:32:26,404 for example, a six and a half thousand dollar Cartier watch 619 00:32:26,438 --> 00:32:27,939 for Bobbie Houston, two and a half thousand dollars 620 00:32:27,973 --> 00:32:29,441 in Louis Vuitton luggage, 621 00:32:30,976 --> 00:32:33,044 a two and a half thousand dollar watch for Phil Dooley, 622 00:32:33,078 --> 00:32:36,581 two watches worth $15,000 for Joel and Julia A'Bell, 623 00:32:36,615 --> 00:32:40,452 and even $16,000 for custom skateboards. 624 00:32:41,853 --> 00:32:43,922 And then there's the cash gifts, 625 00:32:43,955 --> 00:32:46,925 up to $30,000 to board members, some of whom 626 00:32:46,958 --> 00:32:50,816 allegedly helped cover up the sexual abuse carried out 627 00:32:50,849 --> 00:32:52,785 by Frank Houston, Brian Houston's father. 628 00:32:54,253 --> 00:32:56,555 There's also the curious payments of $10,000 each 629 00:32:57,723 --> 00:32:58,891 to pastors who investigated allegations 630 00:32:58,924 --> 00:33:02,995 of Brian Houston's 2019 sexual misconduct 631 00:33:03,028 --> 00:33:05,664 in a Sydney hotel room involving a female parishioner, 632 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:11,870 the documents also revealing Hillsong earns $80 million more 633 00:33:11,904 --> 00:33:14,173 in Australian annual income than it reports publicly. 634 00:33:15,741 --> 00:33:17,976 I verified that these documents are genuine, 635 00:33:18,010 --> 00:33:20,879 and am shocked that when offered to the ATO, ASIC, 636 00:33:20,913 --> 00:33:23,182 and ACNC last year under whistleblower legislation, 637 00:33:23,215 --> 00:33:25,217 not one of those agencies acted, 638 00:33:26,919 --> 00:33:28,220 and that is a failure of regulatory oversight every bit 639 00:33:28,253 --> 00:33:31,123 as alarming as Hillsong's criminality. 640 00:33:31,156 --> 00:33:32,724 Thank you, Deputy Speaker. 641 00:33:33,325 --> 00:33:37,329 (slow piano music continues) 642 00:33:37,362 --> 00:33:39,998 - I want to start by saying I'm sorry. 643 00:33:40,032 --> 00:33:42,701 I'm sorry that as your pastor, you have to go through this, 644 00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:46,038 and your kids have to go through this. 645 00:33:46,071 --> 00:33:48,607 It kind of feels like being king hit from behind. 646 00:33:50,909 --> 00:33:53,178 But Jesus loves you, Mr. Wilkie. 647 00:33:55,247 --> 00:33:58,984 (congregation applauding) 648 00:33:59,017 --> 00:34:02,287 (slow piano music continues) 649 00:34:02,321 --> 00:34:03,989 - Here in the States, 650 00:34:04,022 --> 00:34:06,125 the popularity of Hillsong has sort of fallen off a cliff. 651 00:34:07,893 --> 00:34:10,062 Is there something similar happening where you are, 652 00:34:10,095 --> 00:34:11,697 or is it still sort of going strong? 653 00:34:12,498 --> 00:34:16,168 - Tithes and donations have dropped 20% 654 00:34:16,201 --> 00:34:17,669 on this time last year. 655 00:34:19,037 --> 00:34:20,839 The money is the lifeline of Hillsong, 656 00:34:20,873 --> 00:34:23,709 and it was a really serious revelation, I think, 657 00:34:23,742 --> 00:34:24,977 for donors to Hillsong to learn 658 00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:27,012 that there had been secret payments 659 00:34:28,347 --> 00:34:29,314 of their money, basically, right? 660 00:34:29,348 --> 00:34:31,683 "So I give to the church, 661 00:34:31,717 --> 00:34:34,686 and my money ends up secretly being given to a victim." 662 00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:36,855 Even if the payouts were small amounts, 663 00:34:36,889 --> 00:34:38,657 I think it really undermined that trust. 664 00:34:40,192 --> 00:34:42,227 - [Alex] The more we learn about Brian's behavior 665 00:34:42,261 --> 00:34:43,829 as a leader and as a human being, 666 00:34:45,697 --> 00:34:48,000 the more incoherent his handling of Carl felt. 667 00:34:49,168 --> 00:34:53,005 (slow piano music continues) 668 00:35:01,180 --> 00:35:04,283 (gently chiming music) 669 00:35:10,022 --> 00:35:13,992 (gently chiming music continues) 670 00:35:17,062 --> 00:35:21,733 - I ended up in Florida because Florida is so off the radar. 671 00:35:22,734 --> 00:35:23,902 It's been quiet, it's been slow. 672 00:35:27,272 --> 00:35:30,242 I don't know exactly how to label what I'm good at, 673 00:35:30,275 --> 00:35:32,744 but advertising, you know? 674 00:35:32,778 --> 00:35:35,647 That was a pretty easy little carryover 675 00:35:35,681 --> 00:35:39,118 because I've been advertising the gospel 676 00:35:39,151 --> 00:35:42,287 for quite a while. (laughs) 677 00:35:42,321 --> 00:35:46,625 (gently chiming music continues) 678 00:35:46,658 --> 00:35:50,028 (light switch clicks) 679 00:35:50,062 --> 00:35:53,132 (footsteps pattering) 680 00:35:59,004 --> 00:36:01,807 (footsteps continue pattering) 681 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,042 This is it, this is my spot. 682 00:36:07,780 --> 00:36:09,648 It's my spot and I love it. 683 00:36:09,681 --> 00:36:12,017 Obviously from time to time people will recognize you, 684 00:36:12,050 --> 00:36:14,987 and there was a guy, (laughs) we were in a meeting, 685 00:36:15,020 --> 00:36:17,990 and after the meeting, my boss noticed he kept looking over, 686 00:36:18,023 --> 00:36:20,025 and he's like, "Yeah, that is Carl, he's with us now." 687 00:36:20,058 --> 00:36:21,693 And so he comes down and he's like, 688 00:36:21,727 --> 00:36:23,595 "Man, it's really great to see you." 689 00:36:23,629 --> 00:36:26,064 He's like, "How does it feel to go 690 00:36:26,098 --> 00:36:30,969 from so high to, like, so, so low?" (laughs) 691 00:36:32,704 --> 00:36:33,238 And I was like, "Well, when you put it like that, 692 00:36:33,272 --> 00:36:35,140 it doesn't feel great." 693 00:36:35,174 --> 00:36:36,341 - When they first started doing this- 694 00:36:36,375 --> 00:36:38,677 - I get it, I get what it looks like. 695 00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:41,046 This actually isn't, it's not like a better or worse 696 00:36:41,079 --> 00:36:42,648 or a high or a low, you know? 697 00:36:44,183 --> 00:36:45,951 It's just a different, it's a different setting. 698 00:36:49,655 --> 00:36:52,658 Really soon after a lot of the stuff 699 00:36:52,691 --> 00:36:54,960 that, you know, was going on in the media, 700 00:36:54,993 --> 00:36:59,598 even in the middle of that storm, I went to a rehab. 701 00:36:59,631 --> 00:37:00,599 - [Reporter] Carl Lentz has checked 702 00:37:00,632 --> 00:37:03,035 into an outpatient facility that specializes 703 00:37:03,068 --> 00:37:07,005 in depression, anxiety, and pastoral burnout. 704 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:09,308 (slow music) 705 00:37:09,341 --> 00:37:13,712 - In there, I began the layer peel back 706 00:37:13,745 --> 00:37:16,882 of how you end up in the spot that I ended up. 707 00:37:16,915 --> 00:37:18,117 (group chattering) 708 00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:22,187 It took me this awful rock bottom moment 709 00:37:22,221 --> 00:37:25,691 to peel back what sexual abuse does to somebody's brain, 710 00:37:27,059 --> 00:37:30,295 in regards to how I handle sex, how I handle truth, 711 00:37:30,329 --> 00:37:33,799 how I handle defense systems, how I handle control, 712 00:37:33,832 --> 00:37:35,601 and for a long time, 713 00:37:35,634 --> 00:37:37,803 it kind of dominated my life without me knowing. 714 00:37:42,374 --> 00:37:45,244 I found out at that rehab center 715 00:37:45,277 --> 00:37:49,681 that I was a mess inside, I was a mess. 716 00:37:49,715 --> 00:37:51,950 I've learned a lot about what church can be 717 00:37:51,984 --> 00:37:53,051 in recovery rooms. 718 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,323 Unfortunately, sometimes in our Christian community, 719 00:37:58,357 --> 00:38:01,960 we have just neglected, you know, logic, 720 00:38:01,994 --> 00:38:05,864 neglected science, neglected therapy, neglected help. 721 00:38:07,366 --> 00:38:09,735 Christianity would say, "You've got a problem with lust." 722 00:38:11,069 --> 00:38:11,970 You know, you go to a rehab, my therapist says, 723 00:38:12,004 --> 00:38:13,639 "Can you stop using that word? 724 00:38:13,672 --> 00:38:15,741 You know, you were a child, 725 00:38:15,774 --> 00:38:18,677 and you were forced to do these things, 726 00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:21,046 and now you have some issues that you need to work through, 727 00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:24,583 but let's save the lust stuff for your Christian summer camp 728 00:38:24,616 --> 00:38:26,118 and let's talk about your brain chemistry for a second." 729 00:38:26,151 --> 00:38:28,654 And is lust a thing, of course it is, 730 00:38:28,687 --> 00:38:31,824 but my point is, I went to a rehab, 731 00:38:31,857 --> 00:38:36,595 and we prayed, we talked about God, but then we went in 732 00:38:36,628 --> 00:38:40,365 and talked about the stuff that prayer in and of itself 733 00:38:40,399 --> 00:38:43,702 and talking about Jesus is not going to fix. 734 00:38:43,735 --> 00:38:47,873 My actions are my fault, what I've done is my fault. 735 00:38:47,906 --> 00:38:51,376 But where that thing started, I had no control over. 736 00:38:51,410 --> 00:38:52,611 I was a kid, and. 737 00:38:54,213 --> 00:38:57,282 (slow music continues) 738 00:39:03,055 --> 00:39:04,823 (slow music continues) 739 00:39:04,857 --> 00:39:06,992 The stuff that's happening with Brian now, 740 00:39:07,025 --> 00:39:08,794 like, this is tough for me, I'll be honest with you. 741 00:39:08,827 --> 00:39:10,295 It's really, really hard. 742 00:39:10,329 --> 00:39:12,231 Some of it's frustrating, yeah, because the stuff 743 00:39:12,264 --> 00:39:15,367 that he looked at me with the finger, and how could, 744 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,870 you know, "This is what you did." 745 00:39:17,903 --> 00:39:19,671 You know, if there's one person who is not qualified 746 00:39:19,705 --> 00:39:21,874 to talk about the state of another person 747 00:39:21,907 --> 00:39:24,042 in this situation, it would be Brian. 748 00:39:25,077 --> 00:39:27,880 (slow music continues) 749 00:39:27,913 --> 00:39:30,015 But I hate to see what's happening right now. 750 00:39:33,318 --> 00:39:36,054 - Hillsong founder Brian Houston is back in Australia 751 00:39:36,088 --> 00:39:37,956 to face allegations he concealed 752 00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:40,125 his father's child sex abuse. 753 00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:42,939 Nine News was there as he emerged 754 00:39:42,973 --> 00:39:47,444 from quarantine just days before his first trip to court. 755 00:39:47,477 --> 00:39:48,779 (slow orchestral music) 756 00:39:48,812 --> 00:39:50,814 - [Reporter] Brian Houston back in Sydney, 757 00:39:50,847 --> 00:39:53,350 the holiday well and truly over. 758 00:39:58,321 --> 00:39:59,956 - [Speaker] Brian comes home and really starts 759 00:39:59,990 --> 00:40:02,359 what I call a non-apology tour, 760 00:40:02,392 --> 00:40:03,593 doing everything in his power 761 00:40:03,627 --> 00:40:06,229 to resurrect his brand outside of Hillsong. 762 00:40:06,263 --> 00:40:09,433 - Well, hi there, I pray you're doing well. 763 00:40:09,466 --> 00:40:10,967 I want to be clear, 764 00:40:11,001 --> 00:40:14,571 the media and others incorrectly say I resigned 765 00:40:14,604 --> 00:40:16,873 because I breached the Hillsong code of conduct, 766 00:40:16,907 --> 00:40:19,409 but that's just not true. 767 00:40:19,443 --> 00:40:22,245 I didn't resign because of my mistakes, 768 00:40:22,279 --> 00:40:24,314 I resigned because of the announcements 769 00:40:24,347 --> 00:40:26,683 and statements that have been made 770 00:40:26,717 --> 00:40:30,420 which Bobbie and I felt made my position untenable, 771 00:40:30,454 --> 00:40:32,489 and I spelled out my reasons- 772 00:40:32,522 --> 00:40:33,890 - [Speaker] Not only does he not apologize, 773 00:40:33,924 --> 00:40:36,426 he goes fully on the defensive. 774 00:40:36,460 --> 00:40:39,429 - The narrative that I'm an alcoholic is false. 775 00:40:39,463 --> 00:40:41,965 In fact, I've been told by an expert therapist 776 00:40:41,998 --> 00:40:44,601 that I do not display the behaviors 777 00:40:44,634 --> 00:40:46,770 that are typical of an alcoholic. 778 00:40:46,803 --> 00:40:50,674 And the notorious night in 2019 779 00:40:50,707 --> 00:40:53,343 where I mixed a double dose of anti-anxiety tablets 780 00:40:53,377 --> 00:40:56,680 with alcohol was a one-off occasion. 781 00:40:57,581 --> 00:40:58,949 (Brian laughs) 782 00:40:58,982 --> 00:41:00,450 It's great to be here, and you know what, 783 00:41:00,484 --> 00:41:01,918 I love this church, and- 784 00:41:01,952 --> 00:41:05,989 - Brian is trying to maintain a tenuous juggling act. 785 00:41:06,022 --> 00:41:07,457 On the one hand, 786 00:41:07,491 --> 00:41:09,393 he faces this really serious charge in court. 787 00:41:09,426 --> 00:41:13,563 - Alleged concealment of alleged child sex offenses. 788 00:41:13,597 --> 00:41:15,465 - But on the other hand, 789 00:41:15,499 --> 00:41:17,667 he's trying to rehabilitate himself as a preacher. 790 00:41:17,701 --> 00:41:20,470 - We've had a big challenge with seats 791 00:41:20,504 --> 00:41:23,573 because some unhinged 792 00:41:23,607 --> 00:41:28,445 and childish people kept reserving fake seats. 793 00:41:29,946 --> 00:41:32,416 People are harder on people than God is, by far. 794 00:41:34,284 --> 00:41:36,920 Cancel culture will write you off, 795 00:41:36,953 --> 00:41:39,289 but God won't write you off. 796 00:41:39,322 --> 00:41:42,325 - [Speaker] After Brian was forced out, 797 00:41:42,359 --> 00:41:44,227 he'd started to go against Hillsong. 798 00:41:44,261 --> 00:41:46,430 He decried the way he was forced to resign 799 00:41:46,463 --> 00:41:48,331 and how Bobbie was terminated. 800 00:41:48,365 --> 00:41:49,966 They pivoted to a new strategy 801 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,269 and painted themselves as victims. 802 00:41:53,437 --> 00:41:57,841 - I think the hardest part to understand for Bobbie and I, 803 00:41:57,874 --> 00:42:00,410 and the most difficult part, Bobbie's termination. 804 00:42:03,980 --> 00:42:06,583 - When Bobbie got fired, they all were very shocked. 805 00:42:06,616 --> 00:42:11,321 I'm like, "You just did the exact same thing to me. 806 00:42:12,322 --> 00:42:13,490 This is your church, like, 807 00:42:13,523 --> 00:42:15,926 this is what you built and your culture." 808 00:42:15,959 --> 00:42:18,328 Like, I don't know what else they expected. 809 00:42:20,330 --> 00:42:22,566 - I've been humbled, but I'm not living fallen 810 00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:24,634 and I'm not living disgraced. 811 00:42:24,668 --> 00:42:28,972 I'm living as a child of God with my head held high, chosen, 812 00:42:29,005 --> 00:42:33,844 called, graced, and with a God-given future and hope. 813 00:42:38,749 --> 00:42:41,785 (slow somber music) 814 00:42:41,818 --> 00:42:43,787 - [Reporter] Today Hillsong founder Brian Houston appeared 815 00:42:43,820 --> 00:42:45,756 in court to begin his defense. 816 00:42:48,792 --> 00:42:51,561 - If he is found guilty, it could be up to five years jail. 817 00:42:54,598 --> 00:42:55,932 I had a lot of people asking, 818 00:42:55,966 --> 00:42:57,934 am I going to be attending his court hearing? 819 00:42:58,869 --> 00:42:59,970 And I thought, what a great opportunity 820 00:43:00,003 --> 00:43:01,838 to try and track every day. 821 00:43:01,872 --> 00:43:04,241 It just made sense for me to see this to the end. 822 00:43:05,375 --> 00:43:06,410 (traffic roars) 823 00:43:06,443 --> 00:43:07,210 Jake Elliot here. 824 00:43:08,545 --> 00:43:12,215 I'm outside Downing Centre for the court hearing. 825 00:43:13,617 --> 00:43:15,285 I'll keep you posted. 826 00:43:15,318 --> 00:43:15,986 - [Speaker] Loyalties have shifted 827 00:43:16,019 --> 00:43:17,621 since the royal commission days. 828 00:43:17,654 --> 00:43:19,589 Brian all of a sudden finds himself alone. 829 00:43:20,991 --> 00:43:22,592 - [Jake] I was quite surprised 830 00:43:22,626 --> 00:43:25,262 to see Brian without bodyguards or his elders. 831 00:43:26,830 --> 00:43:28,732 His wife was there, one of his daughters was there. 832 00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:30,934 It was the Houston tribe. 833 00:43:33,403 --> 00:43:35,238 - [Interviewer] So what was the defense's argument? 834 00:43:36,540 --> 00:43:38,842 - Essentially it was, well, Brian didn't know, 835 00:43:38,875 --> 00:43:41,278 and anyone could've reported it to police. 836 00:43:42,479 --> 00:43:45,916 - Brian is not the only one, you know, 837 00:43:45,949 --> 00:43:48,251 half a dozen of the top Pentecostal people 838 00:43:48,285 --> 00:43:51,455 in Australia also knew, 839 00:43:51,488 --> 00:43:55,592 and at least two very senior Hillsong people 840 00:43:55,625 --> 00:43:56,793 that we know of. 841 00:43:56,827 --> 00:43:59,663 So this court case involving Brian 842 00:44:00,731 --> 00:44:02,733 might not be the last. 843 00:44:04,935 --> 00:44:07,270 - It's almost like the tide going out 844 00:44:07,304 --> 00:44:09,306 and seeing which fish were gonna get caught. 845 00:44:11,808 --> 00:44:15,445 Brian actually said Hazel, his mother, 846 00:44:15,479 --> 00:44:17,180 knew about Brett Sengstock. 847 00:44:19,282 --> 00:44:22,351 You could hear a pin drop. 848 00:44:22,385 --> 00:44:24,187 (slow music) 849 00:44:24,220 --> 00:44:24,954 She knew. 850 00:44:27,657 --> 00:44:32,270 I actually felt sick hearing that 'cause a lot of people 851 00:44:32,304 --> 00:44:36,074 in Hillsong have such a high regard for Hazel Houston. 852 00:44:36,108 --> 00:44:38,977 She was such a bedrock in the early days. 853 00:44:40,145 --> 00:44:43,014 I actually was upset for Brian. 854 00:44:44,683 --> 00:44:46,384 I was upset to see how he had 855 00:44:46,418 --> 00:44:48,653 to speak of his mother that way. 856 00:44:51,323 --> 00:44:54,226 - I feel a great sadness. 857 00:44:54,259 --> 00:44:56,962 I feel a great maybe moral responsibility. 858 00:44:56,995 --> 00:44:59,064 But in terms of feeling like, 859 00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:03,635 you know, that I somehow am personally responsible 860 00:45:03,668 --> 00:45:06,204 or even that our church is ultimately responsible, 861 00:45:06,238 --> 00:45:08,073 I don't feel. 862 00:45:08,106 --> 00:45:10,909 The morality of it's a different issue than the legal issue. 863 00:45:12,144 --> 00:45:13,278 I don't for one moment think 864 00:45:13,311 --> 00:45:16,648 that my pain is anywhere near the level 865 00:45:16,681 --> 00:45:19,918 of the person who was abused by my father, 866 00:45:20,819 --> 00:45:23,455 and I've only got great, great sadness 867 00:45:23,488 --> 00:45:26,491 about what my own personal father did to him. 868 00:45:26,525 --> 00:45:29,461 - [Interviewer] What was Brett Sengstock's testimony like? 869 00:45:30,729 --> 00:45:32,931 - It was actually really hard to sit through. 870 00:45:34,065 --> 00:45:37,469 It was incredibly hard watching the defense really starting 871 00:45:37,502 --> 00:45:41,339 to go after his memory, it was remarkable 872 00:45:41,373 --> 00:45:43,875 for someone like Brett Sengstock to hold his ground. 873 00:45:45,477 --> 00:45:47,646 So the trial hasn't yet finished. 874 00:45:47,679 --> 00:45:51,016 It's recommencing 2023, June. 875 00:45:51,049 --> 00:45:53,618 I'm gonna do everything in my power to be there. 876 00:45:53,652 --> 00:45:58,523 (camera shutters snapping) (slow music continues) 877 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,130 (slow piano music) 878 00:46:06,665 --> 00:46:09,468 - When I think about the friendship 879 00:46:09,501 --> 00:46:12,104 that we've had with Brian and Bobbie, 880 00:46:12,137 --> 00:46:14,539 the great times that we've had being connected 881 00:46:14,573 --> 00:46:19,444 to Hillsong all those years, it's just a sense of sadness, 882 00:46:22,714 --> 00:46:24,549 particularly the way Laura was treated. 883 00:46:27,052 --> 00:46:30,922 She lost friends, she lost position, she lost 884 00:46:32,090 --> 00:46:32,991 everything. 885 00:46:37,028 --> 00:46:39,631 - The journal starts November 21st, which is 886 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:43,168 2020. 887 00:46:44,369 --> 00:46:45,904 It's funny to look back at it. 888 00:46:47,606 --> 00:46:49,040 "Everyone knowing my personal, 889 00:46:49,074 --> 00:46:51,376 painful story is the toughest part. 890 00:46:51,410 --> 00:46:53,145 It makes me angry. 891 00:46:53,178 --> 00:46:55,280 I'm hurt by my husband for putting us in this position, 892 00:46:55,313 --> 00:46:56,548 and hurt by Hillsong. 893 00:46:56,581 --> 00:46:59,217 I've sacrificed a lot for the church. 894 00:46:59,251 --> 00:47:01,319 So yeah, I'm mad at God. 895 00:47:01,353 --> 00:47:03,388 I deserve to be loved, cherished, appreciated, 896 00:47:03,422 --> 00:47:05,390 and cared for, and he changed our story." 897 00:47:06,324 --> 00:47:08,994 (slow music) 898 00:47:13,565 --> 00:47:15,434 - [Roman] I dare you to eat it. 899 00:47:15,467 --> 00:47:16,268 - To eat what? 900 00:47:16,301 --> 00:47:17,669 - I'm hungry. 901 00:47:17,702 --> 00:47:19,337 - Can you let, we're gonna take that outside. 902 00:47:19,371 --> 00:47:22,874 (slow music continues) 903 00:47:26,344 --> 00:47:27,379 Ava, you take that. 904 00:47:27,412 --> 00:47:28,580 - [Ava] Where does this go? 905 00:47:28,613 --> 00:47:29,948 - Out on the back. 906 00:47:29,981 --> 00:47:31,950 Out on the table. - Get to work, Roman. 907 00:47:31,983 --> 00:47:34,920 (group chattering) 908 00:47:34,953 --> 00:47:37,656 - [Roman] I didn't even spill it! 909 00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:39,658 - It's been a grieving for me. 910 00:47:39,691 --> 00:47:42,127 Carl made some really bad choices 911 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,131 and made some really bad decisions along the way. 912 00:47:49,367 --> 00:47:53,371 I've done a lot of work on myself independent of him to be 913 00:47:55,207 --> 00:47:57,042 a strong woman. 914 00:47:57,075 --> 00:47:59,444 I don't need him and I don't need to stay. 915 00:48:01,179 --> 00:48:03,949 (group chattering) 916 00:48:05,317 --> 00:48:07,319 But I love him and I love my family. 917 00:48:07,352 --> 00:48:09,287 I love my kids, 918 00:48:09,321 --> 00:48:10,489 (slow piano music) 919 00:48:10,522 --> 00:48:12,124 and I love what we're building now. 920 00:48:14,192 --> 00:48:16,962 (group chattering) 921 00:48:18,497 --> 00:48:20,332 - Okay, I'll do it, we're good, we're good, we're good. 922 00:48:20,365 --> 00:48:21,666 - Why did you stay? 923 00:48:22,734 --> 00:48:23,969 I think that's the question a lot 924 00:48:24,002 --> 00:48:26,638 of people have wanted to ask me. 925 00:48:26,671 --> 00:48:27,806 When my kids asked me that, I said, 926 00:48:27,839 --> 00:48:32,411 "Because I see your dad trying and I see him changing, 927 00:48:32,444 --> 00:48:34,012 and if I didn't see that, 928 00:48:34,045 --> 00:48:36,982 and when I don't see that, I would leave." 929 00:48:38,216 --> 00:48:39,951 - And one day I was like, "Hey, babe, 930 00:48:39,985 --> 00:48:42,187 can you do something with these books?" 931 00:48:42,220 --> 00:48:43,989 Because, like, everywhere in our room, like, 932 00:48:44,022 --> 00:48:45,557 I'll go get my socks, there'll be one of her books, 933 00:48:45,590 --> 00:48:48,026 like, "What to Do After You've Been Betrayed." 934 00:48:48,059 --> 00:48:49,394 And then I'll go to brush my teeth, it's like, 935 00:48:49,428 --> 00:48:51,530 "How to Know if He's Cheating." 936 00:48:51,563 --> 00:48:53,398 And I'll go, like, to go to my closet, 937 00:48:53,432 --> 00:48:55,167 and one of her other books would drop, 938 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,269 like, "What to Do When Your Husband's a Piece of Shit." 939 00:48:57,302 --> 00:48:59,137 And I'm like, 940 00:48:59,171 --> 00:49:00,105 "Babe, can you do something about these books?" 941 00:49:00,138 --> 00:49:03,108 She's like, "No, they're gonna be everywhere." 942 00:49:03,141 --> 00:49:04,676 (Laura laughs) 943 00:49:04,709 --> 00:49:05,577 (group chattering) 944 00:49:05,610 --> 00:49:08,413 (slow piano music) 945 00:49:08,447 --> 00:49:10,115 - Should we pray? 946 00:49:10,148 --> 00:49:12,384 (group laughs) 947 00:49:12,417 --> 00:49:13,251 - Jesus, bless this food. 948 00:49:13,285 --> 00:49:14,286 - Amen. 949 00:49:14,319 --> 00:49:15,654 - [Group] Amen. 950 00:49:15,687 --> 00:49:17,389 (slow piano music continues) (group chattering) 951 00:49:17,422 --> 00:49:20,292 - Me and Laura are a work in progress, but we're still here. 952 00:49:21,526 --> 00:49:22,627 (group laughs) (group chattering) 953 00:49:22,661 --> 00:49:24,062 Do you have a feeling that this has 954 00:49:24,096 --> 00:49:25,597 obviously affected your relationship with God? 955 00:49:25,630 --> 00:49:28,133 - Probably more, like- 956 00:49:28,166 --> 00:49:29,701 - Drawing closer to a degree- - Yeah. 957 00:49:29,734 --> 00:49:31,136 - Yeah. 958 00:49:31,169 --> 00:49:33,605 - I think it, like, negatively affected me, 959 00:49:33,638 --> 00:49:36,341 because all the people that were, like, 960 00:49:36,374 --> 00:49:40,345 hating on me on my Instagram who claim to be, like, 961 00:49:40,378 --> 00:49:43,215 Christian and, like, children of God and stuff. 962 00:49:43,248 --> 00:49:46,551 - Sometimes if you get a bad messenger, 963 00:49:46,585 --> 00:49:48,286 it affects the way you hear. 964 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:49,621 - To stand in church and 965 00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:55,293 figure that part out is, 966 00:49:55,327 --> 00:49:58,230 is a lot, but I have to feel what I feel, 967 00:49:58,263 --> 00:50:00,532 and I have to go through that process. 968 00:50:00,565 --> 00:50:02,000 - [Ava] So is it- 969 00:50:02,033 --> 00:50:02,968 - [Carl] When did you realize in this journey 970 00:50:03,001 --> 00:50:04,002 that you married the right guy? 971 00:50:04,035 --> 00:50:06,638 (group laughs) 972 00:50:06,671 --> 00:50:08,206 - [Ava] Are we at a dark humor point? 973 00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:10,041 - [Carl] We might be a dark humor family. 974 00:50:10,075 --> 00:50:11,042 - I think we might be. 975 00:50:12,611 --> 00:50:14,479 - I need four people in my life, 976 00:50:14,513 --> 00:50:16,314 and they all share my last name. (laughs) 977 00:50:16,348 --> 00:50:18,383 That's the truth, that's my circle. 978 00:50:18,417 --> 00:50:20,452 That's who I'm focused on. 979 00:50:20,485 --> 00:50:22,621 Those are the people that matter, and I have them every day. 980 00:50:24,489 --> 00:50:27,959 So yeah, that was in jeopardy for a while, and so 981 00:50:30,028 --> 00:50:32,998 I understand why some people would've walked away 982 00:50:33,031 --> 00:50:34,299 from what happened with me. 983 00:50:35,567 --> 00:50:37,335 I'm just super grateful for those that didn't, 984 00:50:37,369 --> 00:50:41,373 and I'm super grateful that my circle of five is intact. 985 00:50:43,175 --> 00:50:46,278 (slow music continues) 986 00:50:52,484 --> 00:50:55,487 (slow music) 987 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,157 - I think Carl has paid for what he did. 988 00:50:59,191 --> 00:51:02,360 In terms of healing for his congregants, for his flock, 989 00:51:04,196 --> 00:51:08,633 there are thousands of people that he just sort of left. 990 00:51:10,602 --> 00:51:14,039 - I posted this on Instagram in April of 2021. 991 00:51:14,072 --> 00:51:16,007 "This church really needs to change," 992 00:51:16,041 --> 00:51:18,210 and I put like 20 exclamation points, 993 00:51:18,243 --> 00:51:20,145 but I could've done, like, 40. 994 00:51:20,178 --> 00:51:24,116 "In fact, it needs to be taken down and rebuilt 995 00:51:24,149 --> 00:51:28,019 on a true, not Brian Houston, Jesus foundation. 996 00:51:29,554 --> 00:51:33,391 Brian Charles Houston created and grew the culture Carl 997 00:51:33,425 --> 00:51:35,460 and others were nurtured in. 998 00:51:35,494 --> 00:51:37,629 So what do you expect is gonna come out of it? 999 00:51:37,662 --> 00:51:40,198 You plant things in rotten soil, 1000 00:51:40,232 --> 00:51:42,634 then you're going to have rotten fruit," I'm sorry. 1001 00:51:42,667 --> 00:51:43,602 - Mm-hmm. 1002 00:51:43,635 --> 00:51:47,206 - The reason I'm doing this is 1003 00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,142 because I want to see one of two things happen. 1004 00:51:50,175 --> 00:51:54,446 I want to see change, or I want to see Hillsong shut down. 1005 00:51:58,283 --> 00:52:01,754 I loved Carl, and I didn't have a problem so much with Carl. 1006 00:52:01,787 --> 00:52:03,222 I didn't know a whole lot 1007 00:52:03,255 --> 00:52:05,224 about what was going on in Carl's life. 1008 00:52:05,257 --> 00:52:07,459 My problem was with Hillsong, period. 1009 00:52:07,493 --> 00:52:09,528 Hillsong is the last church 1010 00:52:09,561 --> 00:52:12,898 that I will ever go to this side of Heaven. 1011 00:52:17,736 --> 00:52:20,673 - I don't consider myself a Christian anymore. 1012 00:52:22,508 --> 00:52:27,279 I don't know the answers to the deeper questions in life, 1013 00:52:27,313 --> 00:52:30,582 and it's not so existentially terrifying to me anymore. 1014 00:52:30,616 --> 00:52:34,753 I actually find peace in just being like, "I don't know." 1015 00:52:39,358 --> 00:52:42,161 - Once I got further and further away from the church, 1016 00:52:42,761 --> 00:52:44,563 I just found out for myself 1017 00:52:44,596 --> 00:52:46,165 that I don't think any of it's real, 1018 00:52:46,198 --> 00:52:47,666 and it's beautiful if people believe in it, 1019 00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:51,704 but for me, it's not me. 1020 00:52:51,737 --> 00:52:53,872 I'm a really happy atheist. 1021 00:52:55,774 --> 00:52:56,675 - It's been 1022 00:52:58,610 --> 00:53:02,414 four years now since I stepped in a church. 1023 00:53:04,183 --> 00:53:06,418 There was no way that I was gonna continue 1024 00:53:06,452 --> 00:53:10,856 to betray myself, people deserve better than that. 1025 00:53:10,889 --> 00:53:14,593 People deserve to have an actual community. 1026 00:53:17,262 --> 00:53:20,132 - Failing people on a mass scale is hard. 1027 00:53:22,501 --> 00:53:27,139 I let down, genuinely, a lot of good people, 1028 00:53:27,172 --> 00:53:31,276 and I can only apologize and change. 1029 00:53:33,612 --> 00:53:35,914 My story is now one of recovery, 1030 00:53:35,948 --> 00:53:38,317 and it hasn't been without failure. 1031 00:53:38,350 --> 00:53:41,420 You know, it's not like we're on this road, 1032 00:53:41,453 --> 00:53:43,155 and all of a sudden, you know, 1033 00:53:43,188 --> 00:53:45,357 we're magically, our family's perfect, I'm good. 1034 00:53:48,661 --> 00:53:51,230 So it's a pretty humbling road to be on every day. 1035 00:53:55,768 --> 00:53:58,470 (slow music) 1036 00:53:58,504 --> 00:54:00,673 - When your church sort of turns inside out 1037 00:54:00,706 --> 00:54:02,207 and you see how much it was built 1038 00:54:02,241 --> 00:54:04,610 around the benefit of an individual, 1039 00:54:04,643 --> 00:54:07,379 rather than this quote unquote mission and vision 1040 00:54:07,413 --> 00:54:09,715 that you'd signed yourself up for, yeah, 1041 00:54:09,748 --> 00:54:11,617 the disillusionment's incredibly painful. 1042 00:54:15,321 --> 00:54:17,456 - Church is very triggering for me right now. 1043 00:54:21,593 --> 00:54:23,862 I'm getting better, I still can't sing. 1044 00:54:25,331 --> 00:54:27,266 I don't think I've said a word in church 1045 00:54:27,299 --> 00:54:28,867 in a year and a half. 1046 00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:33,339 And I know God knows my heart, (laughs) 1047 00:54:33,372 --> 00:54:37,423 and he knows where I'm at, and I know it's a process. 1048 00:54:39,459 --> 00:54:42,095 And it makes me sad (cries) 1049 00:54:43,696 --> 00:54:46,866 because I love the church, I love 1050 00:54:49,669 --> 00:54:51,671 what I was a part of. 1051 00:54:51,704 --> 00:54:56,409 But I see a lot of unhealthiness in church life as well now 1052 00:54:56,442 --> 00:54:58,044 'cause I'm out of it, 1053 00:54:59,178 --> 00:55:02,115 things that I didn't realize were unhealthy or, like, 1054 00:55:05,284 --> 00:55:09,589 manipulative, and I don't think that's God's heart, 1055 00:55:09,622 --> 00:55:13,259 and I don't think that's what Christianity's supposed to be. 1056 00:55:17,397 --> 00:55:21,000 - For any Evangelical community, 1057 00:55:21,033 --> 00:55:25,905 there needs to be a re-centering on the heart of the faith 1058 00:55:26,773 --> 00:55:30,343 over and against strategy and metrics 1059 00:55:30,376 --> 00:55:34,614 and success (laughs) and the numbers game. 1060 00:55:36,015 --> 00:55:37,450 - What if you took a year, 1061 00:55:37,483 --> 00:55:40,286 and instead of counting attendance on Sundays, 1062 00:55:40,319 --> 00:55:42,955 instead of counting conversions, 1063 00:55:42,989 --> 00:55:45,925 measure success based on how the church is showing up 1064 00:55:45,958 --> 00:55:48,594 in times of real crisis, crisis of life, 1065 00:55:48,628 --> 00:55:50,596 crisis of loss, crisis of suffering. 1066 00:55:53,166 --> 00:55:55,968 I think if the church wants to look at, like, 1067 00:55:57,103 --> 00:56:00,440 how do we avoid the pain of this stuff in the future, 1068 00:56:00,473 --> 00:56:04,277 really look to why people thought the church mattered. 1069 00:56:04,310 --> 00:56:06,379 (slow piano music) 1070 00:56:06,412 --> 00:56:08,281 - Your family's supposed to, you know, 1071 00:56:08,314 --> 00:56:11,150 give your kids their guidance 1072 00:56:11,184 --> 00:56:12,452 and where they're supposed to go, 1073 00:56:12,485 --> 00:56:14,353 and church is just a bonus, 1074 00:56:14,387 --> 00:56:17,523 and I feel like we have that twisted a little bit. 1075 00:56:17,557 --> 00:56:20,159 You have to be at every service every Sunday, 1076 00:56:20,193 --> 00:56:23,996 otherwise, you know, your life could fall apart. 1077 00:56:24,030 --> 00:56:26,599 I just disagree with that kind of mentality, 1078 00:56:28,367 --> 00:56:31,504 and I think there's more to church than just a building. 1079 00:56:31,537 --> 00:56:35,174 Now, more than ever, I really see that. 1080 00:56:35,208 --> 00:56:38,444 (slow piano music continues) 1081 00:56:38,478 --> 00:56:40,613 - My spirituality today, 1082 00:56:40,646 --> 00:56:42,281 it's very much a personal thing now. 1083 00:56:42,315 --> 00:56:45,351 It's not connected to formal church. 1084 00:56:46,652 --> 00:56:48,588 It's not connected to a place. 1085 00:56:48,621 --> 00:56:53,259 It's not connected to anything in particular, 1086 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:55,595 other than myself. 1087 00:56:55,628 --> 00:57:00,099 (slow piano music continues) 1088 00:57:00,133 --> 00:57:04,437 - So when I left Hillsong, I went to a small church. 1089 00:57:04,470 --> 00:57:07,039 It didn't have all the fancy stuff, 1090 00:57:07,940 --> 00:57:11,611 but it did have the unconditional love 1091 00:57:11,644 --> 00:57:15,515 that I'd always been looking for and hoping I'd find, 1092 00:57:15,548 --> 00:57:17,350 and I found it there. 1093 00:57:19,552 --> 00:57:23,923 And that really feels like what Jesus was about, 1094 00:57:23,956 --> 00:57:27,493 being open and loving to everyone. 1095 00:57:27,527 --> 00:57:31,130 (slow piano music continues) 1096 00:57:35,068 --> 00:57:37,303 - Hillsong can't become a healthy organization. 1097 00:57:38,638 --> 00:57:41,007 It's a system of abuse, and without that system, 1098 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,911 it's not Hillsong, it's a regular church. 1099 00:57:44,944 --> 00:57:49,449 It can't have the levels of success and reach that it has 1100 00:57:49,482 --> 00:57:54,320 if it's gonna treat people properly, keep children safe, 1101 00:57:55,488 --> 00:57:57,957 pay staff appropriately, have equality. 1102 00:58:00,626 --> 00:58:02,662 You know, you can't turn the Manson Family 1103 00:58:02,695 --> 00:58:03,930 into "The Brady Bunch." 1104 00:58:08,634 --> 00:58:10,436 - The reason I've spoken up is 1105 00:58:11,471 --> 00:58:13,039 because I saw what it did to me. 1106 00:58:13,072 --> 00:58:15,007 I've seen what it did to my family, 1107 00:58:15,608 --> 00:58:19,045 and if there is somebody else 1108 00:58:19,078 --> 00:58:21,681 who might have been abused by Frank who, maybe who knew me, 1109 00:58:21,714 --> 00:58:25,485 maybe who knew me, then they would talk to me. 1110 00:58:29,122 --> 00:58:32,058 - For those that Frank Houston preyed on, 1111 00:58:32,091 --> 00:58:33,960 a recognition of what they've been through, 1112 00:58:33,993 --> 00:58:35,661 I think, is really important. 1113 00:58:35,695 --> 00:58:37,597 They've carried this their entire lives. 1114 00:58:39,532 --> 00:58:42,502 It's a stone thrown into a pond, but the ripples never stop. 1115 00:58:42,535 --> 00:58:43,436 There is no healing there. 1116 00:58:44,537 --> 00:58:47,173 Brian Houston has the influence 1117 00:58:49,175 --> 00:58:54,013 to create a space where some sort of truth can be found, 1118 00:58:55,148 --> 00:58:56,983 and I don't think he's done that. 1119 00:58:59,619 --> 00:59:00,920 (slow piano music) 1120 00:59:00,953 --> 00:59:02,121 - Whatever happens with Hillsong, 1121 00:59:02,155 --> 00:59:04,090 whatever happens with Brian Houston, 1122 00:59:04,123 --> 00:59:05,658 they have provided a template 1123 00:59:05,691 --> 00:59:07,460 for churches all around the world, 1124 00:59:07,493 --> 00:59:10,596 for charismatic Christians to exploit 1125 00:59:10,630 --> 00:59:13,132 and to convert their personal charisma 1126 00:59:13,166 --> 00:59:16,102 into financial acquisitions. 1127 00:59:16,135 --> 00:59:17,970 That doesn't end with Brian Houston. 1128 00:59:21,107 --> 00:59:24,343 - [Speaker] I think that what Hillsong has shown is 1129 00:59:25,978 --> 00:59:28,614 the model is scalable and profitable. 1130 00:59:28,648 --> 00:59:31,651 You can do it everywhere, and people will eat it up. 1131 00:59:33,986 --> 00:59:37,256 The megachurch construct is forever going 1132 00:59:37,290 --> 00:59:42,028 to be part of our lives. (slow piano music continues) 1133 00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:47,266 - This whole contemporary Christian culture, 1134 00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:49,335 it needs to be dismantled in some way 1135 00:59:49,368 --> 00:59:50,870 and reborn as something else. 1136 00:59:54,307 --> 00:59:57,076 A church is people, a church is community. 1137 00:59:57,110 --> 01:00:00,146 The church should be people caring about each other, 1138 01:00:00,179 --> 01:00:02,515 and that honestly doesn't have to have anything 1139 01:00:02,548 --> 01:00:04,217 to do with Jesus, God, or anybody else. 1140 01:00:07,186 --> 01:00:10,256 (slow orchestral music) 1141 01:00:16,062 --> 01:00:20,099 (slow orchestral music continues) 1142 01:00:25,338 --> 01:00:28,107 (water rushing) 1143 01:00:30,309 --> 01:00:34,313 (slow orchestral music continues) 1144 01:00:38,684 --> 01:00:42,922 (slow orchestral music continues) 1145 01:00:47,994 --> 01:00:52,031 (slow orchestral music continues) 1146 01:00:57,036 --> 01:01:00,973 (slow orchestral music continues) 1147 01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:10,016 (slow orchestral music continues) 1148 01:01:14,954 --> 01:01:19,158 (slow orchestral music continues) 1149 01:01:19,192 --> 01:01:21,994 (birds chirping) 1150 01:01:27,667 --> 01:01:30,169 (slow music) 1151 01:01:37,410 --> 01:01:40,413 ♪ They know 1152 01:01:40,446 --> 01:01:45,485 ♪ When it's time to die 1153 01:01:46,385 --> 01:01:49,956 ♪ The world will cry 1154 01:01:49,989 --> 01:01:54,861 ♪ It's the end of you 1155 01:01:56,996 --> 01:01:59,165 ♪ Only God knows when the beast was feeding ♪ 1156 01:01:59,198 --> 01:02:01,501 ♪ Taking from our mouths when we ain't eating ♪ 1157 01:02:01,534 --> 01:02:06,272 ♪ Only God knows, only God knows ♪ 1158 01:02:06,305 --> 01:02:08,608 ♪ Shedding more blood than we are bleeding ♪ 1159 01:02:08,641 --> 01:02:10,943 ♪ Shedding more blood than we are bleeding ♪ 1160 01:02:10,977 --> 01:02:12,111 ♪ Only God knows 1161 01:02:15,248 --> 01:02:18,217 (camera shutters snapping) 1162 01:02:18,251 --> 01:02:21,254 (slow orchestral music) 1163 01:02:21,287 --> 01:02:24,157 (slow music) 87885

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