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(ominous orchestral music)
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(ominous orchestral
music continues)
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- The Book of Revelations
talked about the Second Coming.
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- Jesus is coming.
(slow orchestral music)
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- [Congregation] Amen.
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- There are a bunch
of predictions
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about what would happen
before the end of the world,
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and the imminent
return of Jesus.
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- [Speaker] What
will be the sign
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when this is about
to take place?
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- In a weird way,
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a lot of them have
paralleled recent history,
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natural disasters.
(wind whistles)
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- [Reporter] Explosive wildfire.
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- [Reporter] The worst
flooding in a decade.
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- [Lech] Pandemics.
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- [Reporter] 73,000 cases a day.
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- [Lech] Wars, famines.
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It has directly fed into a lot
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of Brian Houston's prophecies.
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- [Speaker] "And
before all of this,
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they will lay their hands on
you and will persecute you,
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and you'll be brought
before governors
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and kings for my namesake."
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- He told followers,
"When bad things happen,
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you know that good
times are near.
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The more bad that happens,
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the closer we are
to deliverance."
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(motorcycle engine revs)
(light orchestral music)
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It's the perfect defense
for Brian Houston
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because the more that
he was persecuted,
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the more alluring he became
to a lot of his followers.
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(group chattering)
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♪ It's time to go
(congregation cheers)
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- He was actually proving
what he was predicting,
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which is, "They're
going to come after me.
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They're going to
accuse me of things."
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- I still want to
have a Pentecostal
two-step when I'm 112.
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(congregation cheers)
(congregation applauds)
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To me, it's not
about the politics.
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It's about the position.
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(audience cheers)
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- It's just been a real
easy path for you, right?
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I mean, it was just kind
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of a tiptoe through the
tulips kind of thing.
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- [Speaker] "Live, Love, Lead:
Your Best is Yet to Come!"
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(Brian laughs)
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- For a lot of Pentecostals,
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the truest proof of
perfection is persecution.
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- Persecuted, but not
forsaken. (laughs)
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- As the allegations
and the stumbles
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within the church became
more and more public,
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Hillsong became
presciently shaped
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by defensiveness more
than anything else.
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- The battle lines are drawn,
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and when it comes
to me and my family,
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I believe the gates of Hell
will not prevail against us.
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- But there's so much disarray
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in the way Brian
has led the church
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that Brian's unraveling was
bound to happen at some point.
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Some people were bound to
start putting things together.
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- Do you think you
could've avoided this
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by reporting it to police?
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- [Reporter] You
told your followers
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that you were ready for battle.
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Is that a reference
to the charges?
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♪ But it's time to go
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(slow music)
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♪ I hope you find
some peace of mind ♪
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♪ In this lifetime
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♪ I hope you find
some paradise ♪
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(slow music continues)
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(slow music continues)
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(slow music continues)
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- We are going to
welcome Pastor Bobbie
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as she comes to bring the
word, but before we do that,
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we
are going to watch an
important announcement
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from Pastor Brian and
Bobbie, and so come on,
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let's together watch this
important announcement.
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- Well, hi, church, it's
been an unexpected season,
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and we're thankful for you all
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and for the incredible
sense of community we share.
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As you know, I received
unexpected news of charges
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against me that allege the
concealing of information
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that may have been material
to prosecute Frank Houston.
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These allegations came as
a complete shock to me,
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and it's my intention to
vigorously defend them.
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But recently, we made a decision
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that may come as a
big surprise to you,
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and I wanted you to hear
it from me directly.
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Hillsong's external legal
counsel gave the board advice
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regarding the current
charge I'm facing,
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and that it would
be best practice
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for me to step aside completely
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from church leadership
during the court proceedings.
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So it's likely to be drawn
out and take up most of 2022.
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I intend to fight the charge,
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and I welcome the opportunity
to set the record straight.
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It's important to
note, Bobbie intends
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to stay fully engaged
in church life.
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(slow orchestral music)
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- [David] In most realms,
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if a CEO is facing
a criminal charge,
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naturally they step aside,
that's just good governance.
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The confounding thing here is
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that Hillsong's never been
subject to good governance.
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So the fact that he
stepped aside meant
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that there was absolutely
other elements at play.
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- [Bobbie] Smiling,
(laughs) yeah.
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- It'll be great.
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Wherever you guys
are around the world,
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I pray you'll have
a great Sunday.
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Thank you.
- [Bobbie] Thank you.
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(slow orchestral
music continues)
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- One month after
Brian's announcement,
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I turned on my computer
in the morning.
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There was an email and
it said "Anonymous tip.
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Something big is happening
in Hillsong, please call me."
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(lively orchestral music)
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When I called that
person, they told me
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that something was going down
this week with Brian Houston.
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A new problem had come to light,
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00:06:05,272 --> 00:06:08,909
and a few influential leaders
of the church were upset.
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The fact that I was in touch
with a source was a big deal.
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Hillsong is protecting itself
nearly all the time (laughs)
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because churches like Hillsong
and people like the Houstons,
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they thrive on opaque systems.
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They don't want anybody really
knowing what's going on.
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- Why is it hard for people
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to speak out against
Hillsong Church?
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Because they've signed
NDAs, (laughs) that's why.
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We signed such an ironclad NDA
that kind of eliminated our-
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- [Interviewer] Just gonna
put that on the record,
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you do not need to
talk about that.
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- It does feel,
it does feel off.
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It does feel like, you know,
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people should be able to
say what they need to say.
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(slow orchestral music)
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00:06:56,157 --> 00:06:57,892
- God wants to be
able to trust you.
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- Why does a church need an NDA?
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00:07:03,597 --> 00:07:06,967
The megachurch is a
giant corporation.
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They're employing
hundreds of people.
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They're taking in
millions of dollars.
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They're managing
hundreds of thousands
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of square feet of property.
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As an organization,
you start going,
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"Well, how do we
protect ourselves?"
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And the models that you adopt
come from the corporate world.
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You start building an HR process
like any other corporation.
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You start hiring lawyers
like any other corporation,
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and it just goes
on down the list.
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- Some people would say that's
standard for a business.
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I don't know if it's becoming
standard for churches.
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- Because they've adopted
the corporate model,
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00:07:47,942 --> 00:07:50,544
they've adopted these
corporate safeguards.
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Now, of course they're not
protecting trade secrets.
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That's where it gets
really troubling.
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What are they protecting?
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(slow music)
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- When you probe deeper,
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you find that there has
been a building resentment
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towards the old boys'
club that runs Hillsong.
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That building resentment
revealed, I think,
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the seeds ultimately for the
destruction of Brain Houston.
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It all really kicked
off at Hillsong College.
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(slow rhythmic music)
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- Within the first week, when
everyone's arrived to start,
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they interviewed
us individually.
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- They would bring us into
a room of about 20 pastors,
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and just with a single
chair facing each other.
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- It was actually
kind of intimidating.
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- We were being told
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we were doing a working
with children's check.
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We had to tell them
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kind of all of our deepest,
darkest secrets, really.
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Have you masturbated
in the last year?
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00:09:10,958 --> 00:09:13,427
Have you had sex
in the last year?
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00:09:13,461 --> 00:09:14,595
Have you ever hallucinated
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that a demon was
standing right there,
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or have you ever seen one?
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- You're not meant
to get new tattoos.
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You're not meant to date.
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Obviously you're
not meant to be gay.
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It could potentially mean
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that you can't be
in college anymore.
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- You learn how to keep secrets
then, because you're like,
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no one in here has looked
at porn ever, really?
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Okay, well, me neither.
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Nobody in here thought lustfully
about a woman all month?
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Me neither, 'cause otherwise,
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they're going to start
looking at you like,
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"This guy probably isn't
cut out for ministry."
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- I thought, I want to
be a truthful person,
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00:09:54,168 --> 00:09:55,936
and nothing bad can come
from the truth, right?
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Like, the truth
should set you free.
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"Have you ever watched porn?"
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00:10:00,975 --> 00:10:02,209
I said, "Yes."
198
00:10:02,243 --> 00:10:04,345
"Have you masturbated
in the last six months?"
199
00:10:04,378 --> 00:10:05,946
I said, "Yes."
200
00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:07,948
"Have you had sex
in the last year?"
201
00:10:07,982 --> 00:10:09,517
I said, "Yes."
202
00:10:09,550 --> 00:10:11,485
- When they would write all
that down on a little iPad,
203
00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:13,220
and then immediately afterwards,
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00:10:13,254 --> 00:10:16,290
you would get your working
with children's check tag
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00:10:16,324 --> 00:10:18,526
and you have to put it on,
and if you had a red dot,
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00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,395
everyone who sees you in
the church knows that,
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00:10:22,463 --> 00:10:24,432
you know, you're struggling.
208
00:10:25,466 --> 00:10:26,934
You were blacklisted.
209
00:10:31,372 --> 00:10:35,810
- I hadn't even told anyone
that I thought I might be gay
210
00:10:35,843 --> 00:10:38,112
when I came to
college, but back then,
211
00:10:38,145 --> 00:10:41,382
it's like you're struggling
with homosexuality.
212
00:10:41,415 --> 00:10:43,284
That language was really
important, you know?
213
00:10:43,317 --> 00:10:45,953
It's not something that
you are, it's a behavior,
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00:10:45,987 --> 00:10:48,055
and therefore it's
something you can change.
215
00:10:50,524 --> 00:10:52,927
- My mission was
to be a drummer.
216
00:10:54,128 --> 00:10:55,896
I've been volunteering my heart
out for the past two years.
217
00:10:55,930 --> 00:10:57,298
I've been working 60 hour weeks.
218
00:10:57,331 --> 00:10:59,467
I've been putting my effort
in, putting my dues in.
219
00:11:01,602 --> 00:11:05,272
I was shortlisted to go
to Indonesia for a tour,
220
00:11:05,306 --> 00:11:06,374
and I was gonna get it.
221
00:11:08,376 --> 00:11:12,413
Then a senior staff
member approached me
222
00:11:12,446 --> 00:11:14,548
and asked some questions
223
00:11:14,582 --> 00:11:16,817
that I've never,
ever shared with him.
224
00:11:19,453 --> 00:11:22,223
Turns out they had written
in my permanent file
225
00:11:22,256 --> 00:11:24,558
that I had a homosexual
experience when I was younger,
226
00:11:24,592 --> 00:11:28,396
which didn't happen,
and I, (sighs)
227
00:11:30,965 --> 00:11:33,968
which wasn't, it was
actually a molestation
228
00:11:34,001 --> 00:11:35,970
from my old church
that I went to.
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00:11:38,973 --> 00:11:40,541
He said, "Nope, you're
not gonna be able
230
00:11:40,574 --> 00:11:42,910
to come on tour or
any other tours."
231
00:11:44,145 --> 00:11:46,047
And after that conversation,
232
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,550
I knew I will never
progress further than this.
233
00:11:50,751 --> 00:11:54,055
As soon as homosexuality comes
up, they shake their head,
234
00:11:54,088 --> 00:11:56,257
and, "No," like,
can't, you can't.
235
00:11:57,558 --> 00:12:00,394
- I couldn't handle
the guilt of being gay.
236
00:12:01,962 --> 00:12:04,231
I ended up coming to a
teacher who I trusted.
237
00:12:04,265 --> 00:12:07,234
They asked me to start
coming into the offices
238
00:12:07,268 --> 00:12:09,937
and to see a counselor
that they had just hired
239
00:12:09,971 --> 00:12:13,240
so that I can stop having
these tendencies to love women.
240
00:12:14,375 --> 00:12:15,576
Counseling with the purpose
241
00:12:15,609 --> 00:12:20,915
of figuring out
why you may be gay
242
00:12:22,083 --> 00:12:25,353
is now what we know as a soft
version of conversion therapy,
243
00:12:25,386 --> 00:12:27,021
and it's dangerous.
244
00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:33,794
- We, as college students,
were penalized for being human,
245
00:12:35,096 --> 00:12:39,729
penalized for, (sighs) yeah.
246
00:12:39,934 --> 00:12:43,004
(slow music continues)
247
00:12:45,906 --> 00:12:47,875
(slow orchestral music)
248
00:12:50,953 --> 00:12:53,256
- Having grown up in
the Hillsong movement,
249
00:12:55,058 --> 00:12:56,426
I feel it is a responsibility
for Christians to stand up
250
00:12:56,459 --> 00:12:58,961
and actually start speaking
out against the abuse,
251
00:13:00,263 --> 00:13:03,499
so I started up a website
called ChurchWatch.
252
00:13:03,533 --> 00:13:08,071
(slow orchestral
music continues)
253
00:13:08,104 --> 00:13:09,872
My focus wasn't just on Frank,
254
00:13:09,906 --> 00:13:12,275
it was Hillsong and
its history, as well.
255
00:13:12,308 --> 00:13:15,878
I was encouraging a whole bunch
of people to work in there,
256
00:13:15,912 --> 00:13:17,914
to share their stories
and information.
257
00:13:17,947 --> 00:13:20,149
I was hoping because
it was so well-reasoned
258
00:13:20,183 --> 00:13:21,317
that a lot of Christians
259
00:13:21,351 --> 00:13:23,152
for the first time
could understand the way
260
00:13:23,186 --> 00:13:25,088
that Hillsong has
conducted itself.
261
00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:30,126
I had to do this anonymously
for the last 12 years.
262
00:13:31,994 --> 00:13:36,199
- For so many years, we were
all isolated and disconnected,
263
00:13:36,232 --> 00:13:40,303
any of us who had not had a
positive experience at Hillsong,
264
00:13:40,336 --> 00:13:44,006
and it wasn't until sites
like Facebook became available
265
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,641
for people to
connect and realize
266
00:13:45,675 --> 00:13:47,977
that they had quite similar
267
00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:51,147
if not identical
experiences to each other,
268
00:13:51,180 --> 00:13:53,816
and that they weren't the
problem, the system was.
269
00:13:56,285 --> 00:13:59,422
- There's a Facebook page
with a lot, a lot of us,
270
00:14:00,623 --> 00:14:02,158
and it actually
happened by accident.
271
00:14:02,191 --> 00:14:05,895
Someone posted something
a little bit controversial
272
00:14:05,928 --> 00:14:09,565
on the main Hillsong
College page,
273
00:14:09,599 --> 00:14:11,434
and College immediately replied
274
00:14:13,169 --> 00:14:15,104
and took the post down and
started censoring all of us.
275
00:14:16,339 --> 00:14:18,007
And so someone made
a support group.
276
00:14:18,941 --> 00:14:22,578
Within one week, we had
over 300, 400 members,
277
00:14:22,612 --> 00:14:24,180
and people sharing their stories
278
00:14:24,213 --> 00:14:25,481
and getting healing from it.
279
00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:32,155
- The group on Facebook started,
280
00:14:32,188 --> 00:14:34,424
and it was really when
my perspective changed.
281
00:14:36,025 --> 00:14:39,429
It gave me the chance
to say my piece
282
00:14:39,462 --> 00:14:42,432
and for other people
to come along and say,
283
00:14:42,465 --> 00:14:43,933
"That's actually not okay.
284
00:14:43,966 --> 00:14:46,169
Like, those things
are not acceptable."
285
00:14:48,271 --> 00:14:50,106
- We've been
hearing about people
286
00:14:50,139 --> 00:14:53,242
who've been coming out
of the Hillsong movement
287
00:14:53,276 --> 00:14:55,611
who've been deeply wounded,
who've been rejected.
288
00:14:57,647 --> 00:14:58,514
You're supposed to
act a certain way
289
00:14:58,548 --> 00:15:00,416
and think a certain
way and filter it
290
00:15:00,450 --> 00:15:05,254
through all these particular
doctrines and beliefs.
291
00:15:05,288 --> 00:15:06,589
I look back now and go,
292
00:15:06,622 --> 00:15:08,925
"I can't believe I put
myself through that."
293
00:15:10,326 --> 00:15:13,262
- Hillsong had a real
fluency and mastery
294
00:15:13,296 --> 00:15:15,098
of some of the pop culture
295
00:15:15,131 --> 00:15:17,400
and social media
levers of the day.
296
00:15:17,433 --> 00:15:19,268
- [Speaker] A decade later,
297
00:15:19,302 --> 00:15:22,338
those same tools were used by
ex-congregants and students
298
00:15:22,372 --> 00:15:24,407
to tell a very different story.
299
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,943
This time, they cracked
open the Hillsong facade.
300
00:15:29,278 --> 00:15:32,648
- Over the years, I think
people felt much more safer
301
00:15:32,682 --> 00:15:37,487
to start to criticize on
Instagram, Facebook, YouTube.
302
00:15:39,288 --> 00:15:42,859
- And so you get from
the Hillsong College
303
00:15:42,892 --> 00:15:45,895
and social media kind
of a Me Too movement
304
00:15:45,928 --> 00:15:48,464
against Hillsong in Australia.
305
00:15:48,498 --> 00:15:52,268
The whole Anna Crenshaw
Hillsong College episode
306
00:15:52,301 --> 00:15:53,569
really did erupt, actually,
307
00:15:53,603 --> 00:15:55,271
and blow up in the
face of Hillsong.
308
00:15:56,973 --> 00:15:58,408
(heart beats)
309
00:15:58,441 --> 00:15:59,575
- [Speaker] Anna Crenshaw
first told her story
310
00:15:59,609 --> 00:16:00,977
to "Vanity Fair."
311
00:16:04,313 --> 00:16:08,918
She was groped by a
young Hillsong staffer
named Jason Mays.
312
00:16:09,585 --> 00:16:10,520
(slow ominous music)
313
00:16:10,553 --> 00:16:12,455
- When she complained about it,
314
00:16:12,488 --> 00:16:16,959
the whole protective mechanism
of Hillsong College swung in.
315
00:16:18,327 --> 00:16:19,996
She was kind of given
a pat on the head
316
00:16:20,029 --> 00:16:22,265
and told to kind of
get on with things.
317
00:16:22,298 --> 00:16:24,267
- [Speaker] Hillsong
tried to make it go away,
318
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:25,968
so she went to the police
319
00:16:26,002 --> 00:16:28,638
and pressed charges
against Jason Mays.
320
00:16:28,671 --> 00:16:31,474
Mays wound up pleading
guilty to indecent assault,
321
00:16:31,507 --> 00:16:33,376
and he received two
years' probation
322
00:16:33,409 --> 00:16:34,977
and mandatory counseling.
323
00:16:36,112 --> 00:16:38,614
This is one of those cases
where the law sided with Anna,
324
00:16:38,648 --> 00:16:41,284
but Brian Houston and
Hillsong really came
325
00:16:41,317 --> 00:16:42,952
to Jason's rescue.
326
00:16:42,985 --> 00:16:45,922
- I found out from LinkedIn
327
00:16:45,955 --> 00:16:50,059
that he was given a better
job during that time.
328
00:16:51,994 --> 00:16:53,930
- [Speaker] Hillsong seemed
anxious to forgive and forget,
329
00:16:53,963 --> 00:16:56,366
but Anna decided
to go to the press.
330
00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:57,967
- You know, I felt like
331
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,270
I was the one who was
in trouble, not him.
332
00:17:01,304 --> 00:17:03,272
- [Reporter] The Crenshaws
believe Jason Mays
333
00:17:03,306 --> 00:17:05,475
was given preferential treatment
334
00:17:05,508 --> 00:17:09,946
because his father is Hillsong's
head of Human Resources.
335
00:17:11,481 --> 00:17:14,984
- We're not talking about
a sexual predator here.
336
00:17:15,018 --> 00:17:19,022
We're talking about a young
man, young married man,
337
00:17:19,055 --> 00:17:21,958
who did something stupid, got
much drunker than he should,
338
00:17:21,991 --> 00:17:24,594
which is an issue we've
got to keep addressing,
339
00:17:24,627 --> 00:17:29,465
and got himself in a bad
situation, that's it.
340
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,902
- He said that Jason was
just in a bad situation,
341
00:17:32,935 --> 00:17:35,438
as if something
happened to Jason.
342
00:17:36,973 --> 00:17:38,941
- These factors
of discrimination,
343
00:17:38,975 --> 00:17:41,978
the lack of justice,
kind of coalesced
344
00:17:42,011 --> 00:17:44,981
to produce some real
anger and a real backlash,
345
00:17:45,581 --> 00:17:48,117
people who are of a generation
346
00:17:48,151 --> 00:17:50,453
that is prepared not to
just go along with it,
347
00:17:50,486 --> 00:17:54,157
but actually to make sure
the voice is somehow heard.
348
00:17:55,458 --> 00:17:57,560
Whoever has engineered
the anonymous tips
349
00:17:57,593 --> 00:18:01,064
to me really wanted to
underline the hypocrisy
350
00:18:01,097 --> 00:18:02,498
of what Brian did,
351
00:18:02,532 --> 00:18:05,234
that while he's telling
everybody else to be perfect,
352
00:18:05,268 --> 00:18:07,003
Brian's holding this secret.
353
00:18:10,973 --> 00:18:12,341
(slow music)
354
00:18:12,375 --> 00:18:14,577
- I think the fact that a
church in Australia is blessed,
355
00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:16,479
God's blessing us, it's growing,
356
00:18:16,512 --> 00:18:18,581
it's got momentum,
it's got movement,
357
00:18:18,614 --> 00:18:21,417
man, it makes some people
out there so angry.
358
00:18:21,451 --> 00:18:23,386
- Towards the beginning of 2020,
359
00:18:23,419 --> 00:18:25,555
before Hillsong
became the subject
360
00:18:25,588 --> 00:18:30,293
of this international
media conflagration,
361
00:18:30,326 --> 00:18:31,861
(slow dramatic music)
362
00:18:31,894 --> 00:18:33,129
two men got together
to play golf.
363
00:18:34,163 --> 00:18:36,466
(slow music)
364
00:18:39,135 --> 00:18:41,304
They had both been
Hillsong congregants,
365
00:18:41,337 --> 00:18:43,439
but one of them had left
the church recently.
366
00:18:45,675 --> 00:18:48,411
The man who hadn't left the
church started asking his friend
367
00:18:48,444 --> 00:18:50,980
what happened, what
had gone wrong?
368
00:18:51,013 --> 00:18:53,916
The man revealed that his
mother had had an encounter
369
00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:56,486
with Brian Houston in
a hotel room in Sydney,
370
00:18:58,988 --> 00:19:00,456
and he produced the
confidentiality agreement
371
00:19:00,490 --> 00:19:02,925
that his mother had signed.
372
00:19:05,061 --> 00:19:07,597
After these two men
played golf, the man
373
00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:10,933
who hadn't left the church
called a spiritual mentor,
374
00:19:10,967 --> 00:19:13,436
concerned about what
he had just learned,
375
00:19:13,469 --> 00:19:15,471
and his mentor immediately
believed the story
376
00:19:15,505 --> 00:19:18,107
because his wife had in fact
had a similar experience.
377
00:19:20,343 --> 00:19:23,179
About a decade earlier, Brian
had been sending text messages
378
00:19:23,212 --> 00:19:26,416
to her that made her feel
increasingly uncomfortable.
379
00:19:26,449 --> 00:19:28,951
She also signed a
confidentiality agreement.
380
00:19:30,453 --> 00:19:32,488
- [Speaker] So you have
material that was supposed
381
00:19:32,522 --> 00:19:36,859
to be sealed under an NDA
that turns into gossip
382
00:19:36,893 --> 00:19:39,429
that circulates around the
church that reporters hear.
383
00:19:43,332 --> 00:19:45,268
- My source said that Brian
384
00:19:45,301 --> 00:19:48,104
and Hillsong had paid out
hush money to the two women
385
00:19:48,137 --> 00:19:51,974
and that they had signed
nondisclosure agreements,
386
00:19:52,008 --> 00:19:59,095
and that word of this had
now got to the elders,
387
00:19:59,129 --> 00:20:02,465
and one elder in
particular, Dr. Gordon Lee,
388
00:20:02,499 --> 00:20:03,967
was very worked up about this.
389
00:20:05,335 --> 00:20:07,003
Dr. Gordon Lee was the physician
390
00:20:07,037 --> 00:20:10,840
who signed off on the idea
that Frank had dementia.
391
00:20:12,776 --> 00:20:15,111
- It seems at this point
Brian has become more
392
00:20:15,145 --> 00:20:17,948
of a liability than an asset.
393
00:20:17,981 --> 00:20:19,983
- [Alex] So for someone
like Gordon Lee,
394
00:20:20,016 --> 00:20:22,452
who had really stuck by
Brian's side for a long time,
395
00:20:22,485 --> 00:20:24,154
there's only so much you can do.
396
00:20:25,488 --> 00:20:28,825
- Gordon Lee began
speaking to donors
397
00:20:28,858 --> 00:20:31,194
about Brian Houston's
transgressions.
398
00:20:33,163 --> 00:20:34,998
There was this mounting tension
399
00:20:35,031 --> 00:20:37,767
that was threatening the bottom
line in a very direct way.
400
00:20:39,736 --> 00:20:42,973
The source told me
that there was going
401
00:20:43,006 --> 00:20:46,109
to be a major meeting, and
it was gonna be on Zoom.
402
00:20:46,142 --> 00:20:50,914
They offered to get me a
recording of the entire meeting,
403
00:20:52,349 --> 00:20:54,117
and that is indeed
what happened.
404
00:20:55,151 --> 00:20:58,989
(slow ominous music)
405
00:20:59,022 --> 00:20:59,789
- So,
406
00:21:01,291 --> 00:21:03,994
I have the responsibility
407
00:21:04,027 --> 00:21:07,831
of sharing with you some news.
408
00:21:08,765 --> 00:21:13,136
There are two incidents
involving Pastor Brian
409
00:21:13,169 --> 00:21:17,107
that as a board we
have had to deal with.
410
00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:21,978
The first incident involved
Pastor Brian text messaging
411
00:21:23,747 --> 00:21:27,784
with a female member of
staff along the lines of,
412
00:21:29,152 --> 00:21:30,820
"If I was with you, I'd
like to give you a kiss
413
00:21:30,854 --> 00:21:33,757
and a cuddle, or a hug,"
words of that nature.
414
00:21:35,392 --> 00:21:40,130
That particular staff member
was obviously upset by that.
415
00:21:42,199 --> 00:21:44,768
- The text messages Brian had
been sending led the woman
416
00:21:44,801 --> 00:21:45,936
to resign from her job.
417
00:21:45,969 --> 00:21:49,372
- This particular
staff member came back
418
00:21:49,406 --> 00:21:51,708
'cause she couldn't get work.
419
00:21:51,741 --> 00:21:52,776
- Hillsong leaders set
up a meeting with her,
420
00:21:52,809 --> 00:21:55,478
and they asked her
what she wanted
421
00:21:55,512 --> 00:21:57,414
to sort of make
all this go away,
422
00:21:57,447 --> 00:21:59,149
and she said that
she just wanted
423
00:21:59,182 --> 00:22:02,852
to be paid the salary she had
lost since she had resigned.
424
00:22:02,886 --> 00:22:05,789
And they said, "Instead,
how about $25,000
425
00:22:05,822 --> 00:22:07,991
and a confidentiality
agreement?"
426
00:22:08,024 --> 00:22:11,494
- Pastor Brian said, "I
want to pay that personally
427
00:22:11,528 --> 00:22:14,831
'cause I don't think it's fair
on the church to pay that."
428
00:22:14,864 --> 00:22:18,435
- That secret was kept for 10
years inside the organization
429
00:22:18,468 --> 00:22:20,971
and known apparently
to only two people.
430
00:22:21,004 --> 00:22:23,406
- Personally I was
not aware of that,
431
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,244
as was the majority
of the global board.
432
00:22:27,277 --> 00:22:29,279
- Spool forward to 2019,
433
00:22:31,014 --> 00:22:33,950
there's Brian's 40 minutes
inside the hotel room
434
00:22:33,984 --> 00:22:37,187
of a woman who was a
supporter of Hillsong.
435
00:22:37,220 --> 00:22:38,855
Brian's said to be drunk.
436
00:22:38,889 --> 00:22:42,292
Brian's said not to have
had his key to his room,
437
00:22:42,325 --> 00:22:44,394
found himself
knocking on her door,
438
00:22:44,427 --> 00:22:46,429
found himself inside there.
439
00:22:46,463 --> 00:22:48,298
(slow ominous music continues)
440
00:22:48,331 --> 00:22:52,903
- Brian has said there
was no sexual activity,
441
00:22:52,936 --> 00:22:57,107
but he was in the
room for 40 minutes.
442
00:22:57,140 --> 00:23:01,144
He doesn't have much
of a recollection
because of, he says,
443
00:23:01,177 --> 00:23:05,115
the mixture of the anxiety
tablets and the alcohol.
444
00:23:07,384 --> 00:23:10,320
- The woman complained,
ah, what did they do?
445
00:23:10,353 --> 00:23:13,890
They returned her donation
446
00:23:13,924 --> 00:23:17,928
and her conference fees,
the minimum possible.
447
00:23:19,162 --> 00:23:22,766
- Again, Pastor Brian
with remorse said,
448
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:25,235
"I don't want the church
to have to pay that.
449
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:28,672
I will personally pay that."
450
00:23:29,606 --> 00:23:33,310
These allegations were
treated very seriously,
451
00:23:35,178 --> 00:23:39,115
and I believe, you know, real
significant steps were taken
452
00:23:40,150 --> 00:23:42,485
to investigate and resolve them.
453
00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:44,854
- Again, we have this
same old pattern.
454
00:23:46,056 --> 00:23:48,825
We have an investigation
team appointed.
455
00:23:48,858 --> 00:23:51,828
The investigation team is
meant to be independent.
456
00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:54,164
When you look more
closely, you find out
457
00:23:54,197 --> 00:23:57,000
that three of the four
are old mates of Brian,
458
00:23:57,033 --> 00:24:01,271
and so we have a
Hillsong-curated
version of those events.
459
00:24:01,304 --> 00:24:04,274
The women involved had no voice.
460
00:24:04,307 --> 00:24:06,810
- The decision
was made to offer,
461
00:24:07,978 --> 00:24:09,346
I suppose, what I
would call grace,
462
00:24:11,514 --> 00:24:15,685
and not to cover up,
but to not expose.
463
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,256
- The source told me that they
464
00:24:19,289 --> 00:24:21,958
and others were
determined this time
465
00:24:21,992 --> 00:24:24,995
that Hillsong would not
control the narrative,
466
00:24:25,028 --> 00:24:28,265
and that's why they wanted
to leak the entire audio
467
00:24:28,298 --> 00:24:29,966
of the meeting to me.
468
00:24:31,234 --> 00:24:32,969
- And I would hope that,
469
00:24:33,003 --> 00:24:35,739
I don't know if people
are recording this,
470
00:24:35,772 --> 00:24:38,275
I would hope not. (laughs)
471
00:24:38,308 --> 00:24:40,277
- Within five minutes of
that meeting finished,
472
00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:43,480
I had a file and was
able to write a report,
473
00:24:43,513 --> 00:24:45,949
which I got out in
about 30 minutes.
474
00:24:49,219 --> 00:24:52,422
It was the day that
Houston lost Hillsong.
475
00:24:52,455 --> 00:24:55,725
It was also the day Hillsong
lost control of the narrative.
476
00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:06,403
(slow music)
477
00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:09,239
- Brian could say that
Carl's bad behavior
478
00:25:09,272 --> 00:25:09,868
was just a Hillsong
New York problem.
479
00:25:09,901 --> 00:25:11,636
- There were leadership issues.
480
00:25:11,670 --> 00:25:13,872
- And he had no idea about
his father's transgressions.
481
00:25:13,905 --> 00:25:17,943
- These allegations came
as a complete shock to me,
482
00:25:17,976 --> 00:25:21,546
and it's my intention to
vigorously defend them.
483
00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:25,450
- [Alex] But I really
wonder how Brian explains
484
00:25:25,483 --> 00:25:28,053
away paying hush money
for his own bad behavior.
485
00:25:30,388 --> 00:25:33,558
- It's a fall from grace
of biblical proportions.
486
00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:37,762
Brian Houston's
45-year reign as head
487
00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:41,867
of the huge Hillsong Church
has come to a shocking end.
488
00:25:43,668 --> 00:25:46,771
- Brian Houston has quit
the megachurch following
489
00:25:46,805 --> 00:25:49,007
an internal investigation
revealing inappropriate behavior
490
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,976
towards two women.
491
00:25:51,009 --> 00:25:52,410
- [Reporter] The
announcement was made
492
00:25:52,444 --> 00:25:54,479
at an emergency
meeting yesterday.
493
00:25:54,513 --> 00:25:56,581
- Dear church, we would
like to advise you
494
00:25:56,615 --> 00:25:58,884
that Pastor Brian
Houston has resigned
495
00:25:58,917 --> 00:26:02,053
as global senior pastor
of Hillsong Church,
496
00:26:02,087 --> 00:26:04,623
and the board has
accepted his resignation.
497
00:26:06,458 --> 00:26:10,529
We understand there will be
much emotion at this news,
498
00:26:10,562 --> 00:26:12,364
and we all share these feelings.
499
00:26:14,966 --> 00:26:18,403
- Suddenly we got a very, very
different picture of Brian,
500
00:26:19,938 --> 00:26:24,442
so I think it cracked open wide
the whole edifice of trust,
501
00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:27,412
the whole edifice of
Brian knowing best.
502
00:26:27,445 --> 00:26:30,615
It just disappeared in a moment.
503
00:26:31,917 --> 00:26:33,385
- Hillsong Church
was birthed out
504
00:26:33,418 --> 00:26:35,987
of Brian and Bobbie's
obedience and commitment
505
00:26:36,021 --> 00:26:38,957
to the call of God, and
we are extremely grateful
506
00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:43,428
for all that Brian and Bobbie
have given to build his house.
507
00:26:43,461 --> 00:26:44,830
- Resign?
508
00:26:44,863 --> 00:26:46,364
(both laughing)
509
00:26:46,398 --> 00:26:48,366
- Like, sure, of his
own free will, sure.
510
00:26:52,571 --> 00:26:55,373
- When Brian's
resignation was announced,
511
00:26:55,407 --> 00:26:56,641
one thing that stood out is
512
00:26:56,675 --> 00:26:58,410
that we didn't actually
hear directly from him.
513
00:27:00,145 --> 00:27:04,416
He emails a pro forma apology
to Hillsong congregants,
514
00:27:04,449 --> 00:27:07,552
but as far as what he
presented to the public,
515
00:27:08,787 --> 00:27:10,722
it's really just a
few social media posts
516
00:27:10,755 --> 00:27:13,491
and effectively
pleas for sympathy.
517
00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:15,861
Then he does what
his father did,
518
00:27:17,429 --> 00:27:18,897
instead of address
these matters in public,
519
00:27:18,930 --> 00:27:20,031
he goes on vacation.
520
00:27:20,065 --> 00:27:23,802
(slow orchestral music)
521
00:27:23,835 --> 00:27:27,405
(scooter engines revving)
522
00:27:29,508 --> 00:27:31,376
But at Hillsong, the
wheels really fall off.
523
00:27:32,677 --> 00:27:34,112
The US branches
start shuttering.
524
00:27:34,145 --> 00:27:37,415
Even the people who
this place was set up
525
00:27:38,383 --> 00:27:40,352
to really benefit were
starting to jump ship,
526
00:27:41,686 --> 00:27:43,889
such as Hillsong Phoenix
Pastor Terry Crist.
527
00:27:43,922 --> 00:27:46,424
- Let's build a culture
where truth can be told
528
00:27:46,458 --> 00:27:49,928
without fear of repercussion,
(congregation applauds)
529
00:27:49,961 --> 00:27:52,531
without NDAs and non-competes.
530
00:27:54,766 --> 00:27:57,035
- [Dan] Hillsong Atlanta
Pastor Sam Collier.
531
00:27:57,068 --> 00:27:59,538
- People don't come
to church for scandal.
532
00:27:59,571 --> 00:28:01,873
They come to church
to have a safe place.
533
00:28:01,907 --> 00:28:05,343
- [Dan] Hillsong Boston
Pastors Leona and Josh Kimes,
534
00:28:05,377 --> 00:28:07,345
as well as prominent
members of the board.
535
00:28:08,213 --> 00:28:09,114
The music, which is
really the calling card
536
00:28:09,147 --> 00:28:10,615
of the church, takes a huge hit.
537
00:28:13,752 --> 00:28:16,988
- [Speaker] Worship leaders
should strongly reconsider
538
00:28:17,022 --> 00:28:20,125
playing Hillsong music in
their worship services.
539
00:28:20,158 --> 00:28:23,028
- Suddenly it wasn't so great
540
00:28:23,061 --> 00:28:26,331
for Scott Morrison to be
friends with Brian Houston.
541
00:28:26,364 --> 00:28:27,866
- I mean, I haven't
been at Hillsong now
542
00:28:27,899 --> 00:28:30,502
for over about 15 years.
543
00:28:30,535 --> 00:28:32,671
I go to a local church
in my own community,
544
00:28:32,704 --> 00:28:34,973
a Pentecostal church, I
think everybody knows that.
545
00:28:35,006 --> 00:28:37,776
- Who's in charge,
who's running the board?
546
00:28:37,809 --> 00:28:40,879
Who's gonna be left to clean
up all of the remaining messes?
547
00:28:40,912 --> 00:28:42,714
(congregation applauds)
548
00:28:42,747 --> 00:28:45,317
- Phil Dooley is trying to
fill Brian Houston's shoes,
549
00:28:46,952 --> 00:28:48,420
but, you know,
550
00:28:50,622 --> 00:28:52,958
the beanie, the curly hair,
551
00:28:52,991 --> 00:28:55,794
I'm sorry, it's something
of a pale imitation.
552
00:28:55,827 --> 00:28:57,963
He doesn't project the personal
power of Brian Houston.
553
00:28:59,965 --> 00:29:03,034
- This is not necessarily
an inspiring night, okay?
554
00:29:05,403 --> 00:29:10,509
(slow orchestral
music continues)
555
00:29:10,542 --> 00:29:11,776
- [Interviewer] Why are you
breaking your silence today?
556
00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:14,479
- So, I think it's
safe to come out now,
557
00:29:15,947 --> 00:29:18,550
only because of what Hillsong
is now going through,
558
00:29:19,985 --> 00:29:21,553
to actually stand
up, pretty much.
559
00:29:23,088 --> 00:29:24,689
The Goliath is on its back.
560
00:29:24,723 --> 00:29:28,026
(slow music)
561
00:29:28,059 --> 00:29:29,461
- As the allegations
and the stumbles
562
00:29:29,494 --> 00:29:32,030
within the church became
more and more public,
563
00:29:32,063 --> 00:29:34,065
it made the reporting
process a lot easier.
564
00:29:36,001 --> 00:29:37,602
More whistleblowers
started to come forward.
565
00:29:39,104 --> 00:29:40,539
- [Reporter] For the first time,
566
00:29:40,572 --> 00:29:42,541
detailed allegations of
financial impropriety
567
00:29:42,574 --> 00:29:45,710
by the megachurch have
been made public thanks
568
00:29:45,744 --> 00:29:48,480
to a lawsuit brought
in the federal court
569
00:29:48,513 --> 00:29:50,482
by the church's own bookkeeper.
570
00:29:52,517 --> 00:29:54,953
- [Dan] Natalie Moses
observed an array
571
00:29:54,986 --> 00:29:57,422
of what she said were
unethical accounting practices.
572
00:30:00,058 --> 00:30:01,526
- It always amazes me,
573
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,728
with all that our church
is doing to help people,
574
00:30:05,497 --> 00:30:07,532
that some people can't look
past my motorbike and a watch.
575
00:30:09,067 --> 00:30:11,770
Yes, I do have a nice watch,
but I don't think that's a sign
576
00:30:11,803 --> 00:30:14,472
that I'm living this
massively over-affluent life.
577
00:30:15,473 --> 00:30:18,877
(slow music continues)
578
00:30:18,910 --> 00:30:20,779
- [Dan] Natalie Moses tried
to pursue internal methods,
579
00:30:20,812 --> 00:30:24,482
and when she was met with
resistance, she was fired.
580
00:30:26,818 --> 00:30:29,521
- Natalie Moses claims
she discovered a range
581
00:30:29,554 --> 00:30:32,390
of financial schemes,
large cash gifts given
582
00:30:32,424 --> 00:30:33,592
to members of the church,
583
00:30:33,625 --> 00:30:35,360
including its founder
Brian Houston,
584
00:30:36,962 --> 00:30:39,397
as well as the remittance of
large sums of money overseas
585
00:30:39,431 --> 00:30:42,434
to avoid scrutiny
by local regulators.
586
00:30:44,402 --> 00:30:46,104
- Churches aren't corporations,
587
00:30:46,137 --> 00:30:47,806
so they're not held to account
588
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:49,574
by the corporate regulator
and shareholders.
589
00:30:49,608 --> 00:30:51,343
They're not government agencies,
590
00:30:51,376 --> 00:30:53,812
so they're not held to account
by the sort of usual measures
591
00:30:53,845 --> 00:30:56,715
in politics that hold
government agencies to account.
592
00:30:56,748 --> 00:30:58,116
They kind of live
in their own space,
593
00:30:58,149 --> 00:30:59,818
and if there's
something we've learned
594
00:30:59,851 --> 00:31:02,954
from the royal commission, it's
that there's an expectation
595
00:31:02,988 --> 00:31:04,322
that something would happen.
596
00:31:05,991 --> 00:31:09,060
(slow music continues)
597
00:31:11,997 --> 00:31:13,532
But again, it became apparent
598
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,435
that nothing was happening.
599
00:31:18,403 --> 00:31:21,473
(slow music continues)
600
00:31:36,521 --> 00:31:38,890
(slow piano music)
601
00:31:38,924 --> 00:31:39,925
- The member for Clark.
602
00:31:39,958 --> 00:31:41,726
- Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
603
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,563
Hillsong is breaking
numerous laws in Australia
604
00:31:44,596 --> 00:31:46,598
and around the world
relating to fraud,
605
00:31:46,631 --> 00:31:48,967
money laundering,
and tax evasion.
606
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,404
For example, this document
shows how in 2021,
607
00:31:53,772 --> 00:31:55,507
four members of
the Houston family
608
00:31:55,540 --> 00:31:58,410
and their friends enjoyed
a three day luxury retreat
609
00:31:58,443 --> 00:32:01,947
in Cancun, Mexico, using
$150,000 of church money.
610
00:32:04,482 --> 00:32:06,651
And these documents
show former leader
611
00:32:06,685 --> 00:32:09,421
Brian Houston treating
private jets like Ubers,
612
00:32:09,454 --> 00:32:10,422
again, all with church money.
613
00:32:11,690 --> 00:32:13,758
Hillsong followers
believed that the money
614
00:32:13,792 --> 00:32:16,394
they put in the poorbox
goes to the poor,
615
00:32:16,428 --> 00:32:17,929
but these documents show how
616
00:32:17,963 --> 00:32:21,099
that money is actually used
to do the kind of shopping
617
00:32:21,132 --> 00:32:23,034
that would embarrass
a Kardashian,
618
00:32:23,068 --> 00:32:26,404
for example, a six and a half
thousand dollar Cartier watch
619
00:32:26,438 --> 00:32:27,939
for Bobbie Houston, two
and a half thousand dollars
620
00:32:27,973 --> 00:32:29,441
in Louis Vuitton luggage,
621
00:32:30,976 --> 00:32:33,044
a two and a half thousand
dollar watch for Phil Dooley,
622
00:32:33,078 --> 00:32:36,581
two watches worth $15,000
for Joel and Julia A'Bell,
623
00:32:36,615 --> 00:32:40,452
and even $16,000 for
custom skateboards.
624
00:32:41,853 --> 00:32:43,922
And then there's the cash gifts,
625
00:32:43,955 --> 00:32:46,925
up to $30,000 to board
members, some of whom
626
00:32:46,958 --> 00:32:50,816
allegedly helped cover up
the sexual abuse carried out
627
00:32:50,849 --> 00:32:52,785
by Frank Houston,
Brian Houston's father.
628
00:32:54,253 --> 00:32:56,555
There's also the curious
payments of $10,000 each
629
00:32:57,723 --> 00:32:58,891
to pastors who
investigated allegations
630
00:32:58,924 --> 00:33:02,995
of Brian Houston's
2019 sexual misconduct
631
00:33:03,028 --> 00:33:05,664
in a Sydney hotel room
involving a female parishioner,
632
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:11,870
the documents also revealing
Hillsong earns $80 million more
633
00:33:11,904 --> 00:33:14,173
in Australian annual income
than it reports publicly.
634
00:33:15,741 --> 00:33:17,976
I verified that these
documents are genuine,
635
00:33:18,010 --> 00:33:20,879
and am shocked that when
offered to the ATO, ASIC,
636
00:33:20,913 --> 00:33:23,182
and ACNC last year under
whistleblower legislation,
637
00:33:23,215 --> 00:33:25,217
not one of those agencies acted,
638
00:33:26,919 --> 00:33:28,220
and that is a failure of
regulatory oversight every bit
639
00:33:28,253 --> 00:33:31,123
as alarming as
Hillsong's criminality.
640
00:33:31,156 --> 00:33:32,724
Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
641
00:33:33,325 --> 00:33:37,329
(slow piano music continues)
642
00:33:37,362 --> 00:33:39,998
- I want to start
by saying I'm sorry.
643
00:33:40,032 --> 00:33:42,701
I'm sorry that as your pastor,
you have to go through this,
644
00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:46,038
and your kids have
to go through this.
645
00:33:46,071 --> 00:33:48,607
It kind of feels like
being king hit from behind.
646
00:33:50,909 --> 00:33:53,178
But Jesus loves you, Mr. Wilkie.
647
00:33:55,247 --> 00:33:58,984
(congregation applauding)
648
00:33:59,017 --> 00:34:02,287
(slow piano music continues)
649
00:34:02,321 --> 00:34:03,989
- Here in the States,
650
00:34:04,022 --> 00:34:06,125
the popularity of Hillsong has
sort of fallen off a cliff.
651
00:34:07,893 --> 00:34:10,062
Is there something similar
happening where you are,
652
00:34:10,095 --> 00:34:11,697
or is it still sort
of going strong?
653
00:34:12,498 --> 00:34:16,168
- Tithes and donations
have dropped 20%
654
00:34:16,201 --> 00:34:17,669
on this time last year.
655
00:34:19,037 --> 00:34:20,839
The money is the
lifeline of Hillsong,
656
00:34:20,873 --> 00:34:23,709
and it was a really serious
revelation, I think,
657
00:34:23,742 --> 00:34:24,977
for donors to Hillsong to learn
658
00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:27,012
that there had been
secret payments
659
00:34:28,347 --> 00:34:29,314
of their money,
basically, right?
660
00:34:29,348 --> 00:34:31,683
"So I give to the church,
661
00:34:31,717 --> 00:34:34,686
and my money ends up secretly
being given to a victim."
662
00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:36,855
Even if the payouts
were small amounts,
663
00:34:36,889 --> 00:34:38,657
I think it really
undermined that trust.
664
00:34:40,192 --> 00:34:42,227
- [Alex] The more we learn
about Brian's behavior
665
00:34:42,261 --> 00:34:43,829
as a leader and
as a human being,
666
00:34:45,697 --> 00:34:48,000
the more incoherent his
handling of Carl felt.
667
00:34:49,168 --> 00:34:53,005
(slow piano music continues)
668
00:35:01,180 --> 00:35:04,283
(gently chiming music)
669
00:35:10,022 --> 00:35:13,992
(gently chiming music continues)
670
00:35:17,062 --> 00:35:21,733
- I ended up in Florida because
Florida is so off the radar.
671
00:35:22,734 --> 00:35:23,902
It's been quiet, it's been slow.
672
00:35:27,272 --> 00:35:30,242
I don't know exactly how
to label what I'm good at,
673
00:35:30,275 --> 00:35:32,744
but advertising, you know?
674
00:35:32,778 --> 00:35:35,647
That was a pretty
easy little carryover
675
00:35:35,681 --> 00:35:39,118
because I've been
advertising the gospel
676
00:35:39,151 --> 00:35:42,287
for quite a while. (laughs)
677
00:35:42,321 --> 00:35:46,625
(gently chiming music continues)
678
00:35:46,658 --> 00:35:50,028
(light switch clicks)
679
00:35:50,062 --> 00:35:53,132
(footsteps pattering)
680
00:35:59,004 --> 00:36:01,807
(footsteps continue pattering)
681
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,042
This is it, this is my spot.
682
00:36:07,780 --> 00:36:09,648
It's my spot and I love it.
683
00:36:09,681 --> 00:36:12,017
Obviously from time to time
people will recognize you,
684
00:36:12,050 --> 00:36:14,987
and there was a guy, (laughs)
we were in a meeting,
685
00:36:15,020 --> 00:36:17,990
and after the meeting, my boss
noticed he kept looking over,
686
00:36:18,023 --> 00:36:20,025
and he's like, "Yeah, that
is Carl, he's with us now."
687
00:36:20,058 --> 00:36:21,693
And so he comes
down and he's like,
688
00:36:21,727 --> 00:36:23,595
"Man, it's really
great to see you."
689
00:36:23,629 --> 00:36:26,064
He's like, "How
does it feel to go
690
00:36:26,098 --> 00:36:30,969
from so high to, like,
so, so low?" (laughs)
691
00:36:32,704 --> 00:36:33,238
And I was like, "Well,
when you put it like that,
692
00:36:33,272 --> 00:36:35,140
it doesn't feel great."
693
00:36:35,174 --> 00:36:36,341
- When they first
started doing this-
694
00:36:36,375 --> 00:36:38,677
- I get it, I get
what it looks like.
695
00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:41,046
This actually isn't, it's
not like a better or worse
696
00:36:41,079 --> 00:36:42,648
or a high or a low, you know?
697
00:36:44,183 --> 00:36:45,951
It's just a different,
it's a different setting.
698
00:36:49,655 --> 00:36:52,658
Really soon after
a lot of the stuff
699
00:36:52,691 --> 00:36:54,960
that, you know, was
going on in the media,
700
00:36:54,993 --> 00:36:59,598
even in the middle of that
storm, I went to a rehab.
701
00:36:59,631 --> 00:37:00,599
- [Reporter] Carl
Lentz has checked
702
00:37:00,632 --> 00:37:03,035
into an outpatient
facility that specializes
703
00:37:03,068 --> 00:37:07,005
in depression, anxiety,
and pastoral burnout.
704
00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:09,308
(slow music)
705
00:37:09,341 --> 00:37:13,712
- In there, I began
the layer peel back
706
00:37:13,745 --> 00:37:16,882
of how you end up in the
spot that I ended up.
707
00:37:16,915 --> 00:37:18,117
(group chattering)
708
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:22,187
It took me this awful
rock bottom moment
709
00:37:22,221 --> 00:37:25,691
to peel back what sexual abuse
does to somebody's brain,
710
00:37:27,059 --> 00:37:30,295
in regards to how I handle
sex, how I handle truth,
711
00:37:30,329 --> 00:37:33,799
how I handle defense systems,
how I handle control,
712
00:37:33,832 --> 00:37:35,601
and for a long time,
713
00:37:35,634 --> 00:37:37,803
it kind of dominated my
life without me knowing.
714
00:37:42,374 --> 00:37:45,244
I found out at that rehab center
715
00:37:45,277 --> 00:37:49,681
that I was a mess
inside, I was a mess.
716
00:37:49,715 --> 00:37:51,950
I've learned a lot
about what church can be
717
00:37:51,984 --> 00:37:53,051
in recovery rooms.
718
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,323
Unfortunately, sometimes
in our Christian community,
719
00:37:58,357 --> 00:38:01,960
we have just neglected,
you know, logic,
720
00:38:01,994 --> 00:38:05,864
neglected science, neglected
therapy, neglected help.
721
00:38:07,366 --> 00:38:09,735
Christianity would say, "You've
got a problem with lust."
722
00:38:11,069 --> 00:38:11,970
You know, you go to a
rehab, my therapist says,
723
00:38:12,004 --> 00:38:13,639
"Can you stop using that word?
724
00:38:13,672 --> 00:38:15,741
You know, you were a child,
725
00:38:15,774 --> 00:38:18,677
and you were forced
to do these things,
726
00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:21,046
and now you have some issues
that you need to work through,
727
00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:24,583
but let's save the lust stuff
for your Christian summer camp
728
00:38:24,616 --> 00:38:26,118
and let's talk about your
brain chemistry for a second."
729
00:38:26,151 --> 00:38:28,654
And is lust a thing,
of course it is,
730
00:38:28,687 --> 00:38:31,824
but my point is,
I went to a rehab,
731
00:38:31,857 --> 00:38:36,595
and we prayed, we talked
about God, but then we went in
732
00:38:36,628 --> 00:38:40,365
and talked about the stuff
that prayer in and of itself
733
00:38:40,399 --> 00:38:43,702
and talking about Jesus
is not going to fix.
734
00:38:43,735 --> 00:38:47,873
My actions are my fault,
what I've done is my fault.
735
00:38:47,906 --> 00:38:51,376
But where that thing started,
I had no control over.
736
00:38:51,410 --> 00:38:52,611
I was a kid, and.
737
00:38:54,213 --> 00:38:57,282
(slow music continues)
738
00:39:03,055 --> 00:39:04,823
(slow music continues)
739
00:39:04,857 --> 00:39:06,992
The stuff that's
happening with Brian now,
740
00:39:07,025 --> 00:39:08,794
like, this is tough for me,
I'll be honest with you.
741
00:39:08,827 --> 00:39:10,295
It's really, really hard.
742
00:39:10,329 --> 00:39:12,231
Some of it's frustrating,
yeah, because the stuff
743
00:39:12,264 --> 00:39:15,367
that he looked at me with
the finger, and how could,
744
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,870
you know, "This
is what you did."
745
00:39:17,903 --> 00:39:19,671
You know, if there's one
person who is not qualified
746
00:39:19,705 --> 00:39:21,874
to talk about the
state of another person
747
00:39:21,907 --> 00:39:24,042
in this situation,
it would be Brian.
748
00:39:25,077 --> 00:39:27,880
(slow music continues)
749
00:39:27,913 --> 00:39:30,015
But I hate to see what's
happening right now.
750
00:39:33,318 --> 00:39:36,054
- Hillsong founder Brian
Houston is back in Australia
751
00:39:36,088 --> 00:39:37,956
to face allegations he concealed
752
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:40,125
his father's child sex abuse.
753
00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:42,939
Nine News was
there as he emerged
754
00:39:42,973 --> 00:39:47,444
from quarantine just days
before his first trip to court.
755
00:39:47,477 --> 00:39:48,779
(slow orchestral music)
756
00:39:48,812 --> 00:39:50,814
- [Reporter] Brian
Houston back in Sydney,
757
00:39:50,847 --> 00:39:53,350
the holiday well and truly over.
758
00:39:58,321 --> 00:39:59,956
- [Speaker] Brian comes
home and really starts
759
00:39:59,990 --> 00:40:02,359
what I call a non-apology tour,
760
00:40:02,392 --> 00:40:03,593
doing everything in his power
761
00:40:03,627 --> 00:40:06,229
to resurrect his brand
outside of Hillsong.
762
00:40:06,263 --> 00:40:09,433
- Well, hi there, I
pray you're doing well.
763
00:40:09,466 --> 00:40:10,967
I want to be clear,
764
00:40:11,001 --> 00:40:14,571
the media and others
incorrectly say I resigned
765
00:40:14,604 --> 00:40:16,873
because I breached the
Hillsong code of conduct,
766
00:40:16,907 --> 00:40:19,409
but that's just not true.
767
00:40:19,443 --> 00:40:22,245
I didn't resign
because of my mistakes,
768
00:40:22,279 --> 00:40:24,314
I resigned because
of the announcements
769
00:40:24,347 --> 00:40:26,683
and statements
that have been made
770
00:40:26,717 --> 00:40:30,420
which Bobbie and I felt
made my position untenable,
771
00:40:30,454 --> 00:40:32,489
and I spelled out my reasons-
772
00:40:32,522 --> 00:40:33,890
- [Speaker] Not only
does he not apologize,
773
00:40:33,924 --> 00:40:36,426
he goes fully on the defensive.
774
00:40:36,460 --> 00:40:39,429
- The narrative that I'm
an alcoholic is false.
775
00:40:39,463 --> 00:40:41,965
In fact, I've been told
by an expert therapist
776
00:40:41,998 --> 00:40:44,601
that I do not
display the behaviors
777
00:40:44,634 --> 00:40:46,770
that are typical
of an alcoholic.
778
00:40:46,803 --> 00:40:50,674
And the notorious night in 2019
779
00:40:50,707 --> 00:40:53,343
where I mixed a double dose
of anti-anxiety tablets
780
00:40:53,377 --> 00:40:56,680
with alcohol was a
one-off occasion.
781
00:40:57,581 --> 00:40:58,949
(Brian laughs)
782
00:40:58,982 --> 00:41:00,450
It's great to be here,
and you know what,
783
00:41:00,484 --> 00:41:01,918
I love this church, and-
784
00:41:01,952 --> 00:41:05,989
- Brian is trying to maintain
a tenuous juggling act.
785
00:41:06,022 --> 00:41:07,457
On the one hand,
786
00:41:07,491 --> 00:41:09,393
he faces this really
serious charge in court.
787
00:41:09,426 --> 00:41:13,563
- Alleged concealment of
alleged child sex offenses.
788
00:41:13,597 --> 00:41:15,465
- But on the other hand,
789
00:41:15,499 --> 00:41:17,667
he's trying to rehabilitate
himself as a preacher.
790
00:41:17,701 --> 00:41:20,470
- We've had a big
challenge with seats
791
00:41:20,504 --> 00:41:23,573
because some unhinged
792
00:41:23,607 --> 00:41:28,445
and childish people kept
reserving fake seats.
793
00:41:29,946 --> 00:41:32,416
People are harder on
people than God is, by far.
794
00:41:34,284 --> 00:41:36,920
Cancel culture
will write you off,
795
00:41:36,953 --> 00:41:39,289
but God won't write you off.
796
00:41:39,322 --> 00:41:42,325
- [Speaker] After
Brian was forced out,
797
00:41:42,359 --> 00:41:44,227
he'd started to go
against Hillsong.
798
00:41:44,261 --> 00:41:46,430
He decried the way he
was forced to resign
799
00:41:46,463 --> 00:41:48,331
and how Bobbie was terminated.
800
00:41:48,365 --> 00:41:49,966
They pivoted to a new strategy
801
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,269
and painted
themselves as victims.
802
00:41:53,437 --> 00:41:57,841
- I think the hardest part to
understand for Bobbie and I,
803
00:41:57,874 --> 00:42:00,410
and the most difficult
part, Bobbie's termination.
804
00:42:03,980 --> 00:42:06,583
- When Bobbie got fired,
they all were very shocked.
805
00:42:06,616 --> 00:42:11,321
I'm like, "You just did
the exact same thing to me.
806
00:42:12,322 --> 00:42:13,490
This is your church, like,
807
00:42:13,523 --> 00:42:15,926
this is what you built
and your culture."
808
00:42:15,959 --> 00:42:18,328
Like, I don't know what
else they expected.
809
00:42:20,330 --> 00:42:22,566
- I've been humbled, but
I'm not living fallen
810
00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:24,634
and I'm not living disgraced.
811
00:42:24,668 --> 00:42:28,972
I'm living as a child of God
with my head held high, chosen,
812
00:42:29,005 --> 00:42:33,844
called, graced, and with a
God-given future and hope.
813
00:42:38,749 --> 00:42:41,785
(slow somber music)
814
00:42:41,818 --> 00:42:43,787
- [Reporter] Today Hillsong
founder Brian Houston appeared
815
00:42:43,820 --> 00:42:45,756
in court to begin his defense.
816
00:42:48,792 --> 00:42:51,561
- If he is found guilty, it
could be up to five years jail.
817
00:42:54,598 --> 00:42:55,932
I had a lot of people asking,
818
00:42:55,966 --> 00:42:57,934
am I going to be attending
his court hearing?
819
00:42:58,869 --> 00:42:59,970
And I thought, what
a great opportunity
820
00:43:00,003 --> 00:43:01,838
to try and track every day.
821
00:43:01,872 --> 00:43:04,241
It just made sense for me
to see this to the end.
822
00:43:05,375 --> 00:43:06,410
(traffic roars)
823
00:43:06,443 --> 00:43:07,210
Jake Elliot here.
824
00:43:08,545 --> 00:43:12,215
I'm outside Downing Centre
for the court hearing.
825
00:43:13,617 --> 00:43:15,285
I'll keep you posted.
826
00:43:15,318 --> 00:43:15,986
- [Speaker] Loyalties
have shifted
827
00:43:16,019 --> 00:43:17,621
since the royal commission days.
828
00:43:17,654 --> 00:43:19,589
Brian all of a sudden
finds himself alone.
829
00:43:20,991 --> 00:43:22,592
- [Jake] I was quite surprised
830
00:43:22,626 --> 00:43:25,262
to see Brian without
bodyguards or his elders.
831
00:43:26,830 --> 00:43:28,732
His wife was there, one of
his daughters was there.
832
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:30,934
It was the Houston tribe.
833
00:43:33,403 --> 00:43:35,238
- [Interviewer] So what
was the defense's argument?
834
00:43:36,540 --> 00:43:38,842
- Essentially it was,
well, Brian didn't know,
835
00:43:38,875 --> 00:43:41,278
and anyone could've
reported it to police.
836
00:43:42,479 --> 00:43:45,916
- Brian is not the
only one, you know,
837
00:43:45,949 --> 00:43:48,251
half a dozen of the
top Pentecostal people
838
00:43:48,285 --> 00:43:51,455
in Australia also knew,
839
00:43:51,488 --> 00:43:55,592
and at least two very
senior Hillsong people
840
00:43:55,625 --> 00:43:56,793
that we know of.
841
00:43:56,827 --> 00:43:59,663
So this court case
involving Brian
842
00:44:00,731 --> 00:44:02,733
might not be the last.
843
00:44:04,935 --> 00:44:07,270
- It's almost like
the tide going out
844
00:44:07,304 --> 00:44:09,306
and seeing which fish
were gonna get caught.
845
00:44:11,808 --> 00:44:15,445
Brian actually said
Hazel, his mother,
846
00:44:15,479 --> 00:44:17,180
knew about Brett Sengstock.
847
00:44:19,282 --> 00:44:22,351
You could hear a pin drop.
848
00:44:22,385 --> 00:44:24,187
(slow music)
849
00:44:24,220 --> 00:44:24,954
She knew.
850
00:44:27,657 --> 00:44:32,270
I actually felt sick hearing
that 'cause a lot of people
851
00:44:32,304 --> 00:44:36,074
in Hillsong have such a high
regard for Hazel Houston.
852
00:44:36,108 --> 00:44:38,977
She was such a bedrock
in the early days.
853
00:44:40,145 --> 00:44:43,014
I actually was upset for Brian.
854
00:44:44,683 --> 00:44:46,384
I was upset to see how he had
855
00:44:46,418 --> 00:44:48,653
to speak of his mother that way.
856
00:44:51,323 --> 00:44:54,226
- I feel a great sadness.
857
00:44:54,259 --> 00:44:56,962
I feel a great maybe
moral responsibility.
858
00:44:56,995 --> 00:44:59,064
But in terms of feeling like,
859
00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:03,635
you know, that I somehow
am personally responsible
860
00:45:03,668 --> 00:45:06,204
or even that our church
is ultimately responsible,
861
00:45:06,238 --> 00:45:08,073
I don't feel.
862
00:45:08,106 --> 00:45:10,909
The morality of it's a different
issue than the legal issue.
863
00:45:12,144 --> 00:45:13,278
I don't for one moment think
864
00:45:13,311 --> 00:45:16,648
that my pain is
anywhere near the level
865
00:45:16,681 --> 00:45:19,918
of the person who was
abused by my father,
866
00:45:20,819 --> 00:45:23,455
and I've only got
great, great sadness
867
00:45:23,488 --> 00:45:26,491
about what my own personal
father did to him.
868
00:45:26,525 --> 00:45:29,461
- [Interviewer] What was Brett
Sengstock's testimony like?
869
00:45:30,729 --> 00:45:32,931
- It was actually really
hard to sit through.
870
00:45:34,065 --> 00:45:37,469
It was incredibly hard watching
the defense really starting
871
00:45:37,502 --> 00:45:41,339
to go after his memory,
it was remarkable
872
00:45:41,373 --> 00:45:43,875
for someone like Brett
Sengstock to hold his ground.
873
00:45:45,477 --> 00:45:47,646
So the trial hasn't
yet finished.
874
00:45:47,679 --> 00:45:51,016
It's recommencing 2023, June.
875
00:45:51,049 --> 00:45:53,618
I'm gonna do everything
in my power to be there.
876
00:45:53,652 --> 00:45:58,523
(camera shutters snapping)
(slow music continues)
877
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,130
(slow piano music)
878
00:46:06,665 --> 00:46:09,468
- When I think
about the friendship
879
00:46:09,501 --> 00:46:12,104
that we've had with
Brian and Bobbie,
880
00:46:12,137 --> 00:46:14,539
the great times that
we've had being connected
881
00:46:14,573 --> 00:46:19,444
to Hillsong all those years,
it's just a sense of sadness,
882
00:46:22,714 --> 00:46:24,549
particularly the way
Laura was treated.
883
00:46:27,052 --> 00:46:30,922
She lost friends, she
lost position, she lost
884
00:46:32,090 --> 00:46:32,991
everything.
885
00:46:37,028 --> 00:46:39,631
- The journal starts
November 21st, which is
886
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:43,168
2020.
887
00:46:44,369 --> 00:46:45,904
It's funny to look back at it.
888
00:46:47,606 --> 00:46:49,040
"Everyone knowing my personal,
889
00:46:49,074 --> 00:46:51,376
painful story is
the toughest part.
890
00:46:51,410 --> 00:46:53,145
It makes me angry.
891
00:46:53,178 --> 00:46:55,280
I'm hurt by my husband for
putting us in this position,
892
00:46:55,313 --> 00:46:56,548
and hurt by Hillsong.
893
00:46:56,581 --> 00:46:59,217
I've sacrificed a
lot for the church.
894
00:46:59,251 --> 00:47:01,319
So yeah, I'm mad at God.
895
00:47:01,353 --> 00:47:03,388
I deserve to be loved,
cherished, appreciated,
896
00:47:03,422 --> 00:47:05,390
and cared for, and he
changed our story."
897
00:47:06,324 --> 00:47:08,994
(slow music)
898
00:47:13,565 --> 00:47:15,434
- [Roman] I dare you to eat it.
899
00:47:15,467 --> 00:47:16,268
- To eat what?
900
00:47:16,301 --> 00:47:17,669
- I'm hungry.
901
00:47:17,702 --> 00:47:19,337
- Can you let, we're
gonna take that outside.
902
00:47:19,371 --> 00:47:22,874
(slow music continues)
903
00:47:26,344 --> 00:47:27,379
Ava, you take that.
904
00:47:27,412 --> 00:47:28,580
- [Ava] Where does this go?
905
00:47:28,613 --> 00:47:29,948
- Out on the back.
906
00:47:29,981 --> 00:47:31,950
Out on the table.
- Get to work, Roman.
907
00:47:31,983 --> 00:47:34,920
(group chattering)
908
00:47:34,953 --> 00:47:37,656
- [Roman] I didn't
even spill it!
909
00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:39,658
- It's been a grieving for me.
910
00:47:39,691 --> 00:47:42,127
Carl made some
really bad choices
911
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,131
and made some really bad
decisions along the way.
912
00:47:49,367 --> 00:47:53,371
I've done a lot of work on
myself independent of him to be
913
00:47:55,207 --> 00:47:57,042
a strong woman.
914
00:47:57,075 --> 00:47:59,444
I don't need him and
I don't need to stay.
915
00:48:01,179 --> 00:48:03,949
(group chattering)
916
00:48:05,317 --> 00:48:07,319
But I love him and
I love my family.
917
00:48:07,352 --> 00:48:09,287
I love my kids,
918
00:48:09,321 --> 00:48:10,489
(slow piano music)
919
00:48:10,522 --> 00:48:12,124
and I love what
we're building now.
920
00:48:14,192 --> 00:48:16,962
(group chattering)
921
00:48:18,497 --> 00:48:20,332
- Okay, I'll do it, we're
good, we're good, we're good.
922
00:48:20,365 --> 00:48:21,666
- Why did you stay?
923
00:48:22,734 --> 00:48:23,969
I think that's
the question a lot
924
00:48:24,002 --> 00:48:26,638
of people have wanted to ask me.
925
00:48:26,671 --> 00:48:27,806
When my kids asked
me that, I said,
926
00:48:27,839 --> 00:48:32,411
"Because I see your dad
trying and I see him changing,
927
00:48:32,444 --> 00:48:34,012
and if I didn't see that,
928
00:48:34,045 --> 00:48:36,982
and when I don't see
that, I would leave."
929
00:48:38,216 --> 00:48:39,951
- And one day I was
like, "Hey, babe,
930
00:48:39,985 --> 00:48:42,187
can you do something
with these books?"
931
00:48:42,220 --> 00:48:43,989
Because, like, everywhere
in our room, like,
932
00:48:44,022 --> 00:48:45,557
I'll go get my socks,
there'll be one of her books,
933
00:48:45,590 --> 00:48:48,026
like, "What to Do After
You've Been Betrayed."
934
00:48:48,059 --> 00:48:49,394
And then I'll go to brush
my teeth, it's like,
935
00:48:49,428 --> 00:48:51,530
"How to Know if He's Cheating."
936
00:48:51,563 --> 00:48:53,398
And I'll go, like,
to go to my closet,
937
00:48:53,432 --> 00:48:55,167
and one of her other
books would drop,
938
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,269
like, "What to Do When Your
Husband's a Piece of Shit."
939
00:48:57,302 --> 00:48:59,137
And I'm like,
940
00:48:59,171 --> 00:49:00,105
"Babe, can you do something
about these books?"
941
00:49:00,138 --> 00:49:03,108
She's like, "No, they're
gonna be everywhere."
942
00:49:03,141 --> 00:49:04,676
(Laura laughs)
943
00:49:04,709 --> 00:49:05,577
(group chattering)
944
00:49:05,610 --> 00:49:08,413
(slow piano music)
945
00:49:08,447 --> 00:49:10,115
- Should we pray?
946
00:49:10,148 --> 00:49:12,384
(group laughs)
947
00:49:12,417 --> 00:49:13,251
- Jesus, bless this food.
948
00:49:13,285 --> 00:49:14,286
- Amen.
949
00:49:14,319 --> 00:49:15,654
- [Group] Amen.
950
00:49:15,687 --> 00:49:17,389
(slow piano music continues)
(group chattering)
951
00:49:17,422 --> 00:49:20,292
- Me and Laura are a work in
progress, but we're still here.
952
00:49:21,526 --> 00:49:22,627
(group laughs)
(group chattering)
953
00:49:22,661 --> 00:49:24,062
Do you have a
feeling that this has
954
00:49:24,096 --> 00:49:25,597
obviously affected your
relationship with God?
955
00:49:25,630 --> 00:49:28,133
- Probably more, like-
956
00:49:28,166 --> 00:49:29,701
- Drawing closer to a degree-
- Yeah.
957
00:49:29,734 --> 00:49:31,136
- Yeah.
958
00:49:31,169 --> 00:49:33,605
- I think it, like,
negatively affected me,
959
00:49:33,638 --> 00:49:36,341
because all the people
that were, like,
960
00:49:36,374 --> 00:49:40,345
hating on me on my Instagram
who claim to be, like,
961
00:49:40,378 --> 00:49:43,215
Christian and, like,
children of God and stuff.
962
00:49:43,248 --> 00:49:46,551
- Sometimes if you
get a bad messenger,
963
00:49:46,585 --> 00:49:48,286
it affects the way you hear.
964
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:49,621
- To stand in church and
965
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:55,293
figure that part out is,
966
00:49:55,327 --> 00:49:58,230
is a lot, but I have
to feel what I feel,
967
00:49:58,263 --> 00:50:00,532
and I have to go
through that process.
968
00:50:00,565 --> 00:50:02,000
- [Ava] So is it-
969
00:50:02,033 --> 00:50:02,968
- [Carl] When did you
realize in this journey
970
00:50:03,001 --> 00:50:04,002
that you married the right guy?
971
00:50:04,035 --> 00:50:06,638
(group laughs)
972
00:50:06,671 --> 00:50:08,206
- [Ava] Are we at
a dark humor point?
973
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:10,041
- [Carl] We might be
a dark humor family.
974
00:50:10,075 --> 00:50:11,042
- I think we might be.
975
00:50:12,611 --> 00:50:14,479
- I need four people in my life,
976
00:50:14,513 --> 00:50:16,314
and they all share my
last name. (laughs)
977
00:50:16,348 --> 00:50:18,383
That's the truth,
that's my circle.
978
00:50:18,417 --> 00:50:20,452
That's who I'm focused on.
979
00:50:20,485 --> 00:50:22,621
Those are the people
that matter, and I
have them every day.
980
00:50:24,489 --> 00:50:27,959
So yeah, that was in
jeopardy for a while, and so
981
00:50:30,028 --> 00:50:32,998
I understand why some
people would've walked away
982
00:50:33,031 --> 00:50:34,299
from what happened with me.
983
00:50:35,567 --> 00:50:37,335
I'm just super grateful
for those that didn't,
984
00:50:37,369 --> 00:50:41,373
and I'm super grateful that
my circle of five is intact.
985
00:50:43,175 --> 00:50:46,278
(slow music continues)
986
00:50:52,484 --> 00:50:55,487
(slow music)
987
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,157
- I think Carl has
paid for what he did.
988
00:50:59,191 --> 00:51:02,360
In terms of healing for his
congregants, for his flock,
989
00:51:04,196 --> 00:51:08,633
there are thousands of people
that he just sort of left.
990
00:51:10,602 --> 00:51:14,039
- I posted this on
Instagram in April of 2021.
991
00:51:14,072 --> 00:51:16,007
"This church really
needs to change,"
992
00:51:16,041 --> 00:51:18,210
and I put like 20
exclamation points,
993
00:51:18,243 --> 00:51:20,145
but I could've done, like, 40.
994
00:51:20,178 --> 00:51:24,116
"In fact, it needs to be
taken down and rebuilt
995
00:51:24,149 --> 00:51:28,019
on a true, not Brian
Houston, Jesus foundation.
996
00:51:29,554 --> 00:51:33,391
Brian Charles Houston created
and grew the culture Carl
997
00:51:33,425 --> 00:51:35,460
and others were nurtured in.
998
00:51:35,494 --> 00:51:37,629
So what do you expect
is gonna come out of it?
999
00:51:37,662 --> 00:51:40,198
You plant things in rotten soil,
1000
00:51:40,232 --> 00:51:42,634
then you're going to have
rotten fruit," I'm sorry.
1001
00:51:42,667 --> 00:51:43,602
- Mm-hmm.
1002
00:51:43,635 --> 00:51:47,206
- The reason I'm doing this is
1003
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,142
because I want to see
one of two things happen.
1004
00:51:50,175 --> 00:51:54,446
I want to see change, or I
want to see Hillsong shut down.
1005
00:51:58,283 --> 00:52:01,754
I loved Carl, and I didn't have
a problem so much with Carl.
1006
00:52:01,787 --> 00:52:03,222
I didn't know a whole lot
1007
00:52:03,255 --> 00:52:05,224
about what was going
on in Carl's life.
1008
00:52:05,257 --> 00:52:07,459
My problem was with
Hillsong, period.
1009
00:52:07,493 --> 00:52:09,528
Hillsong is the last church
1010
00:52:09,561 --> 00:52:12,898
that I will ever go to
this side of Heaven.
1011
00:52:17,736 --> 00:52:20,673
- I don't consider myself
a Christian anymore.
1012
00:52:22,508 --> 00:52:27,279
I don't know the answers to
the deeper questions in life,
1013
00:52:27,313 --> 00:52:30,582
and it's not so existentially
terrifying to me anymore.
1014
00:52:30,616 --> 00:52:34,753
I actually find peace in just
being like, "I don't know."
1015
00:52:39,358 --> 00:52:42,161
- Once I got further and
further away from the church,
1016
00:52:42,761 --> 00:52:44,563
I just found out for myself
1017
00:52:44,596 --> 00:52:46,165
that I don't think
any of it's real,
1018
00:52:46,198 --> 00:52:47,666
and it's beautiful if
people believe in it,
1019
00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:51,704
but for me, it's not me.
1020
00:52:51,737 --> 00:52:53,872
I'm a really happy atheist.
1021
00:52:55,774 --> 00:52:56,675
- It's been
1022
00:52:58,610 --> 00:53:02,414
four years now since
I stepped in a church.
1023
00:53:04,183 --> 00:53:06,418
There was no way that
I was gonna continue
1024
00:53:06,452 --> 00:53:10,856
to betray myself, people
deserve better than that.
1025
00:53:10,889 --> 00:53:14,593
People deserve to have
an actual community.
1026
00:53:17,262 --> 00:53:20,132
- Failing people on
a mass scale is hard.
1027
00:53:22,501 --> 00:53:27,139
I let down, genuinely,
a lot of good people,
1028
00:53:27,172 --> 00:53:31,276
and I can only
apologize and change.
1029
00:53:33,612 --> 00:53:35,914
My story is now one of recovery,
1030
00:53:35,948 --> 00:53:38,317
and it hasn't been
without failure.
1031
00:53:38,350 --> 00:53:41,420
You know, it's not like
we're on this road,
1032
00:53:41,453 --> 00:53:43,155
and all of a sudden, you know,
1033
00:53:43,188 --> 00:53:45,357
we're magically, our
family's perfect, I'm good.
1034
00:53:48,661 --> 00:53:51,230
So it's a pretty humbling
road to be on every day.
1035
00:53:55,768 --> 00:53:58,470
(slow music)
1036
00:53:58,504 --> 00:54:00,673
- When your church sort
of turns inside out
1037
00:54:00,706 --> 00:54:02,207
and you see how
much it was built
1038
00:54:02,241 --> 00:54:04,610
around the benefit
of an individual,
1039
00:54:04,643 --> 00:54:07,379
rather than this quote
unquote mission and vision
1040
00:54:07,413 --> 00:54:09,715
that you'd signed
yourself up for, yeah,
1041
00:54:09,748 --> 00:54:11,617
the disillusionment's
incredibly painful.
1042
00:54:15,321 --> 00:54:17,456
- Church is very triggering
for me right now.
1043
00:54:21,593 --> 00:54:23,862
I'm getting better,
I still can't sing.
1044
00:54:25,331 --> 00:54:27,266
I don't think I've
said a word in church
1045
00:54:27,299 --> 00:54:28,867
in a year and a half.
1046
00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:33,339
And I know God knows
my heart, (laughs)
1047
00:54:33,372 --> 00:54:37,423
and he knows where I'm at,
and I know it's a process.
1048
00:54:39,459 --> 00:54:42,095
And it makes me sad (cries)
1049
00:54:43,696 --> 00:54:46,866
because I love
the church, I love
1050
00:54:49,669 --> 00:54:51,671
what I was a part of.
1051
00:54:51,704 --> 00:54:56,409
But I see a lot of unhealthiness
in church life as well now
1052
00:54:56,442 --> 00:54:58,044
'cause I'm out of it,
1053
00:54:59,178 --> 00:55:02,115
things that I didn't realize
were unhealthy or, like,
1054
00:55:05,284 --> 00:55:09,589
manipulative, and I don't
think that's God's heart,
1055
00:55:09,622 --> 00:55:13,259
and I don't think that's what
Christianity's supposed to be.
1056
00:55:17,397 --> 00:55:21,000
- For any Evangelical community,
1057
00:55:21,033 --> 00:55:25,905
there needs to be a re-centering
on the heart of the faith
1058
00:55:26,773 --> 00:55:30,343
over and against
strategy and metrics
1059
00:55:30,376 --> 00:55:34,614
and success (laughs)
and the numbers game.
1060
00:55:36,015 --> 00:55:37,450
- What if you took a year,
1061
00:55:37,483 --> 00:55:40,286
and instead of counting
attendance on Sundays,
1062
00:55:40,319 --> 00:55:42,955
instead of counting conversions,
1063
00:55:42,989 --> 00:55:45,925
measure success based on
how the church is showing up
1064
00:55:45,958 --> 00:55:48,594
in times of real
crisis, crisis of life,
1065
00:55:48,628 --> 00:55:50,596
crisis of loss,
crisis of suffering.
1066
00:55:53,166 --> 00:55:55,968
I think if the church
wants to look at, like,
1067
00:55:57,103 --> 00:56:00,440
how do we avoid the pain of
this stuff in the future,
1068
00:56:00,473 --> 00:56:04,277
really look to why people
thought the church mattered.
1069
00:56:04,310 --> 00:56:06,379
(slow piano music)
1070
00:56:06,412 --> 00:56:08,281
- Your family's
supposed to, you know,
1071
00:56:08,314 --> 00:56:11,150
give your kids their guidance
1072
00:56:11,184 --> 00:56:12,452
and where they're
supposed to go,
1073
00:56:12,485 --> 00:56:14,353
and church is just a bonus,
1074
00:56:14,387 --> 00:56:17,523
and I feel like we have
that twisted a little bit.
1075
00:56:17,557 --> 00:56:20,159
You have to be at every
service every Sunday,
1076
00:56:20,193 --> 00:56:23,996
otherwise, you know, your
life could fall apart.
1077
00:56:24,030 --> 00:56:26,599
I just disagree with
that kind of mentality,
1078
00:56:28,367 --> 00:56:31,504
and I think there's more to
church than just a building.
1079
00:56:31,537 --> 00:56:35,174
Now, more than ever,
I really see that.
1080
00:56:35,208 --> 00:56:38,444
(slow piano music continues)
1081
00:56:38,478 --> 00:56:40,613
- My spirituality today,
1082
00:56:40,646 --> 00:56:42,281
it's very much a
personal thing now.
1083
00:56:42,315 --> 00:56:45,351
It's not connected
to formal church.
1084
00:56:46,652 --> 00:56:48,588
It's not connected to a place.
1085
00:56:48,621 --> 00:56:53,259
It's not connected to
anything in particular,
1086
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:55,595
other than myself.
1087
00:56:55,628 --> 00:57:00,099
(slow piano music continues)
1088
00:57:00,133 --> 00:57:04,437
- So when I left Hillsong,
I went to a small church.
1089
00:57:04,470 --> 00:57:07,039
It didn't have all
the fancy stuff,
1090
00:57:07,940 --> 00:57:11,611
but it did have the
unconditional love
1091
00:57:11,644 --> 00:57:15,515
that I'd always been looking
for and hoping I'd find,
1092
00:57:15,548 --> 00:57:17,350
and I found it there.
1093
00:57:19,552 --> 00:57:23,923
And that really feels
like what Jesus was about,
1094
00:57:23,956 --> 00:57:27,493
being open and
loving to everyone.
1095
00:57:27,527 --> 00:57:31,130
(slow piano music continues)
1096
00:57:35,068 --> 00:57:37,303
- Hillsong can't become
a healthy organization.
1097
00:57:38,638 --> 00:57:41,007
It's a system of abuse,
and without that system,
1098
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,911
it's not Hillsong,
it's a regular church.
1099
00:57:44,944 --> 00:57:49,449
It can't have the levels of
success and reach that it has
1100
00:57:49,482 --> 00:57:54,320
if it's gonna treat people
properly, keep children safe,
1101
00:57:55,488 --> 00:57:57,957
pay staff appropriately,
have equality.
1102
00:58:00,626 --> 00:58:02,662
You know, you can't
turn the Manson Family
1103
00:58:02,695 --> 00:58:03,930
into "The Brady Bunch."
1104
00:58:08,634 --> 00:58:10,436
- The reason I've spoken up is
1105
00:58:11,471 --> 00:58:13,039
because I saw what it did to me.
1106
00:58:13,072 --> 00:58:15,007
I've seen what it
did to my family,
1107
00:58:15,608 --> 00:58:19,045
and if there is somebody else
1108
00:58:19,078 --> 00:58:21,681
who might have been abused by
Frank who, maybe who knew me,
1109
00:58:21,714 --> 00:58:25,485
maybe who knew me, then
they would talk to me.
1110
00:58:29,122 --> 00:58:32,058
- For those that Frank
Houston preyed on,
1111
00:58:32,091 --> 00:58:33,960
a recognition of what
they've been through,
1112
00:58:33,993 --> 00:58:35,661
I think, is really important.
1113
00:58:35,695 --> 00:58:37,597
They've carried this
their entire lives.
1114
00:58:39,532 --> 00:58:42,502
It's a stone thrown into a pond,
but the ripples never stop.
1115
00:58:42,535 --> 00:58:43,436
There is no healing there.
1116
00:58:44,537 --> 00:58:47,173
Brian Houston has the influence
1117
00:58:49,175 --> 00:58:54,013
to create a space where some
sort of truth can be found,
1118
00:58:55,148 --> 00:58:56,983
and I don't think
he's done that.
1119
00:58:59,619 --> 00:59:00,920
(slow piano music)
1120
00:59:00,953 --> 00:59:02,121
- Whatever happens
with Hillsong,
1121
00:59:02,155 --> 00:59:04,090
whatever happens
with Brian Houston,
1122
00:59:04,123 --> 00:59:05,658
they have provided a template
1123
00:59:05,691 --> 00:59:07,460
for churches all
around the world,
1124
00:59:07,493 --> 00:59:10,596
for charismatic
Christians to exploit
1125
00:59:10,630 --> 00:59:13,132
and to convert their
personal charisma
1126
00:59:13,166 --> 00:59:16,102
into financial acquisitions.
1127
00:59:16,135 --> 00:59:17,970
That doesn't end
with Brian Houston.
1128
00:59:21,107 --> 00:59:24,343
- [Speaker] I think that
what Hillsong has shown is
1129
00:59:25,978 --> 00:59:28,614
the model is scalable
and profitable.
1130
00:59:28,648 --> 00:59:31,651
You can do it everywhere,
and people will eat it up.
1131
00:59:33,986 --> 00:59:37,256
The megachurch construct
is forever going
1132
00:59:37,290 --> 00:59:42,028
to be part of our lives.
(slow piano music continues)
1133
00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:47,266
- This whole contemporary
Christian culture,
1134
00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:49,335
it needs to be
dismantled in some way
1135
00:59:49,368 --> 00:59:50,870
and reborn as something else.
1136
00:59:54,307 --> 00:59:57,076
A church is people, a
church is community.
1137
00:59:57,110 --> 01:00:00,146
The church should be people
caring about each other,
1138
01:00:00,179 --> 01:00:02,515
and that honestly doesn't
have to have anything
1139
01:00:02,548 --> 01:00:04,217
to do with Jesus,
God, or anybody else.
1140
01:00:07,186 --> 01:00:10,256
(slow orchestral music)
1141
01:00:16,062 --> 01:00:20,099
(slow orchestral
music continues)
1142
01:00:25,338 --> 01:00:28,107
(water rushing)
1143
01:00:30,309 --> 01:00:34,313
(slow orchestral
music continues)
1144
01:00:38,684 --> 01:00:42,922
(slow orchestral
music continues)
1145
01:00:47,994 --> 01:00:52,031
(slow orchestral
music continues)
1146
01:00:57,036 --> 01:01:00,973
(slow orchestral
music continues)
1147
01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:10,016
(slow orchestral
music continues)
1148
01:01:14,954 --> 01:01:19,158
(slow orchestral
music continues)
1149
01:01:19,192 --> 01:01:21,994
(birds chirping)
1150
01:01:27,667 --> 01:01:30,169
(slow music)
1151
01:01:37,410 --> 01:01:40,413
♪ They know
1152
01:01:40,446 --> 01:01:45,485
♪ When it's time to die
1153
01:01:46,385 --> 01:01:49,956
♪ The world will cry
1154
01:01:49,989 --> 01:01:54,861
♪ It's the end of you
1155
01:01:56,996 --> 01:01:59,165
♪ Only God knows when
the beast was feeding ♪
1156
01:01:59,198 --> 01:02:01,501
♪ Taking from our mouths
when we ain't eating ♪
1157
01:02:01,534 --> 01:02:06,272
♪ Only God knows,
only God knows ♪
1158
01:02:06,305 --> 01:02:08,608
♪ Shedding more blood
than we are bleeding ♪
1159
01:02:08,641 --> 01:02:10,943
♪ Shedding more blood
than we are bleeding ♪
1160
01:02:10,977 --> 01:02:12,111
♪ Only God knows
1161
01:02:15,248 --> 01:02:18,217
(camera shutters snapping)
1162
01:02:18,251 --> 01:02:21,254
(slow orchestral music)
1163
01:02:21,287 --> 01:02:24,157
(slow music)
87885
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