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1
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Cookie and I were friends
when she was in high school.
2
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And we used to deal drugs together,
we used to sell LSD.
3
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And, um, that's how Cookie and I met.
4
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Oh, I love Cookie. She was
the most brilliant person I had ever met.
5
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I loved her so much. I adored her.
6
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I worshiped her.
7
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Cookie and I were very close
for a really long time, like old girlfriend sisters.
8
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When she moved to New York,
she really wanted to become famous.
9
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That was her big goal in life.
10
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She was uno famous-o.
11
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That was it. And she did well.
12
00:00:49,939 --> 00:00:51,507
And she got her books published.
13
00:00:51,674 --> 00:00:56,745
She also had a drug problem
and that kind of held her back a lot, but, um...
14
00:00:56,912 --> 00:01:00,516
She was the funniest--
I would pee my pants laughing with her.
15
00:01:00,683 --> 00:01:03,752
We put on stage performances
and stuff in New York.
16
00:01:03,919 --> 00:01:07,323
Sharon can really give you
some stories about Cookie.
17
00:01:07,489 --> 00:01:12,294
She made me-- We would sit around
and just pee ourselves laughing at whatever.
18
00:01:12,461 --> 00:01:14,863
We'd make these plays up, you know...
19
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...and we would just
adlib these plays, you know...
20
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...and then we'd perform
at the Poet Center and all this shit.
21
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Sometimes they were really bizarre.
22
00:01:25,474 --> 00:01:29,178
But we had the best time. Um...
23
00:01:30,245 --> 00:01:34,617
Cookie and I and Mink lived together
in Provincetown several summers.
24
00:01:34,883 --> 00:01:36,552
Cookie and I were like bad girls together.
25
00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:39,955
You know,
kind of like Eddie Haskell and Eddie Haskell.
26
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[ALL LAUGHING]
27
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- John will tell you the same thing.
MAN: Yeah.
28
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We were bad girls together. We just...
29
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We were so rebellious. That was it.
30
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We wanted to see how rebellious
we could be and get away with it.
31
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In whatever way was rebellious at that time.
32
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We were on black beauties
and Old Crow or something, I don't know.
33
00:02:05,180 --> 00:02:07,116
And we're hitchhiking in miniskirts
up to here...
34
00:02:07,282 --> 00:02:09,385
...black fingernail polish...
35
00:02:09,551 --> 00:02:11,220
...and bourbon bottles and black beauties.
36
00:02:11,387 --> 00:02:13,922
We were a mess. It was great.
37
00:02:15,357 --> 00:02:19,361
Mm. And we got kidnapped by these hillbillies
that tried to-
38
00:02:19,528 --> 00:02:23,332
We got in the car with them because they had
booze in the car. “Okay, we'll get in." Heh.
39
00:02:23,499 --> 00:02:26,402
Then we realized that they were taking us,
trying to get us lost.
40
00:02:26,568 --> 00:02:28,303
We were going through these toll booths...
41
00:02:28,470 --> 00:02:31,473
...and we realized that this is not the way
we wanted to go.
42
00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:34,677
S0 we started writing notes
to hand to the, um...
43
00:02:34,843 --> 00:02:37,880
...ticket-taker, you know, the...
44
00:02:38,747 --> 00:02:41,650
“Help! Please help us!“
45
00:02:41,817 --> 00:02:45,921
And trying to sneak it to the ticket-taker
or the money, um--
46
00:02:46,422 --> 00:02:48,123
MAN: What do you call it?
Toll booth attendant?
47
00:02:48,290 --> 00:02:50,759
Toll booth attendant. Thank you.
48
00:02:50,926 --> 00:02:54,663
And, um, they'd catch us
and rip it up. "Yeah!“
49
00:02:54,830 --> 00:02:55,998
And we'd go...
50
00:02:56,165 --> 00:02:59,101
And we were coming down off of speed.
Right? You know how that is.
51
00:02:59,268 --> 00:03:01,637
Or maybe you don't, but it's horrible.
52
00:03:01,804 --> 00:03:04,840
It's very agitating. Agitative.
53
00:03:05,007 --> 00:03:10,579
And these guys took Cookie off--
Mink and I jumped out of the car...
54
00:03:10,746 --> 00:03:13,082
...tried to pull her out and the baggage,
and they sped off.
55
00:03:13,248 --> 00:03:17,386
We were left at this other hillbilly's house.
I mean, real...
56
00:03:18,187 --> 00:03:19,988
...Appalachia.
57
00:03:20,155 --> 00:03:21,690
And we called the police...
58
00:03:21,857 --> 00:03:24,226
...and Mink and I stayed
at the police station...
59
00:03:24,393 --> 00:03:26,995
...and they were looking out for Cookie
through the woods.
60
00:03:27,162 --> 00:03:29,164
She was hiding in the woods
until morning.
61
00:03:29,331 --> 00:03:32,868
They were drunk, passing out, looking for her.
There were gonna rape her. Well, they--
62
00:03:33,035 --> 00:03:37,306
I mean, they were so stupid and drunk...
63
00:03:37,473 --> 00:03:40,442
...that she just hid underneath her bag.
64
00:03:40,609 --> 00:03:42,478
I don't know how
she got her bag out of her car--
65
00:03:42,644 --> 00:03:44,012
MAN:
Or some bush or something, or...
66
00:03:44,213 --> 00:03:47,750
And then got a ride home from a--
What do you call it?
67
00:03:47,916 --> 00:03:49,952
A ranger.
68
00:03:50,419 --> 00:03:51,987
And-- Can you imagine?
69
00:03:53,388 --> 00:03:58,227
S0 then, when we were at the police station,
they were giving us a hard time...
70
00:03:58,393 --> 00:03:59,595
...because I had a sketch book.
71
00:03:59,762 --> 00:04:03,899
I was an artist, I had a sketch book
with nude sketches in it.
72
00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:07,202
And they were gonna confiscate it...
73
00:04:07,436 --> 00:04:10,472
“What are you gonna do with that?
Probably jerk off in the backroom with it."
74
00:04:10,639 --> 00:04:15,277
And then they told us
we have to leave town...
75
00:04:15,444 --> 00:04:17,212
...but we can't hitchhike.
76
00:04:17,379 --> 00:04:20,449
S0 we didn't know how to get out of town.
77
00:04:20,783 --> 00:04:23,752
MAN: Didn't you have any money with you?
-Mink had all the money.
78
00:04:24,686 --> 00:04:27,589
Then we got to the air--
Somehow we hitchhiked.
79
00:04:27,756 --> 00:04:28,857
We got to the airport.
80
00:04:29,024 --> 00:04:31,693
We were gonna try to take a plane
to Provincetown.
81
00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:33,829
Because something was holding us back.
82
00:04:33,996 --> 00:04:38,967
Some of the, you know, higher powers
were holding us back from getting there.
83
00:04:39,134 --> 00:04:42,471
And it was a holiday
and there was all these naval guys at the...
84
00:04:42,771 --> 00:04:47,743
And there was no planes.
We had to spend two nights in the airport.
85
00:04:48,544 --> 00:04:50,312
Before we finally got to Provincetown.
86
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DERMODY: Cookie, I met in Provincetown
because I was there...
87
00:04:52,815 --> 00:04:56,084
...l moved in the early-'70s
and it was great then.
88
00:04:56,251 --> 00:05:01,123
I think David Lochary was living there in the
winters. A lot of lunatics live there in the winter.
89
00:05:01,290 --> 00:05:04,827
There was a girl named Black Beverly,
who had taken too much acid...
90
00:05:04,993 --> 00:05:08,130
...and walked backwards for a whole year
because she had headaches...
91
00:05:08,297 --> 00:05:10,332
...and walking backwards alleviated it.
92
00:05:10,499 --> 00:05:14,269
And typical of Provincetown that nobody
thought that was such an odd thing...
93
00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:17,639
...that you saw her walking backwards.
We crept up and looked in her window...
94
00:05:17,806 --> 00:05:20,475
...she really walked backwards
around the house, so it wasn't a gag.
95
00:05:20,642 --> 00:05:23,145
But that was the typical kind of people
that lived there.
96
00:05:23,312 --> 00:05:25,714
And I met Cookie
and we started becoming friends.
97
00:05:25,881 --> 00:05:28,450
We went out to movies together.
We started hanging out.
98
00:05:28,617 --> 00:05:31,053
Cookie wasn't writing
until she moved to New York.
99
00:05:31,220 --> 00:05:35,057
She had started to.
She showed me a few things.
100
00:05:35,224 --> 00:05:37,059
I had been writing in Provincetown.
101
00:05:37,226 --> 00:05:40,929
But she showed me a couple of her
writing things and I thought they were great.
102
00:05:41,096 --> 00:05:43,632
When she came to New York
and got the job at Details...
103
00:05:43,799 --> 00:05:46,301
.-.l think that was-- Was that her first job?
104
00:05:46,468 --> 00:05:47,936
I think at Details Magazine.
105
00:05:48,103 --> 00:05:52,507
And she would do "Ask Dr. Mueller,"
and an art column, which was hilarious.
106
00:05:52,674 --> 00:05:55,077
My favorite thing that she ever did
was went to-
107
00:05:55,244 --> 00:05:58,580
She didn't go to one of the shows
she was supposed to review...
108
00:05:58,747 --> 00:06:01,116
...so she just wrote up
that the painting was very bad...
109
00:06:01,283 --> 00:06:03,418
...and found out that it was a sculptor.
110
00:06:03,585 --> 00:06:06,188
S0 she called up my friend hysterical,
“What am I gonna do?“
111
00:06:06,355 --> 00:06:08,257
And he said,
“Just write the next column and say:
112
00:06:08,423 --> 00:06:11,026
'I just wanted to see
if you were paying attention.“
113
00:06:11,193 --> 00:06:15,898
And she covered her ass that way.
It was quite funny.
114
00:06:16,064 --> 00:06:18,500
But Cookie was a great character.
And she--
115
00:06:18,667 --> 00:06:21,436
Any time she walked out the door,
her life was a story.
116
00:06:21,603 --> 00:06:23,672
I mean, everything she did.
Like, she would say:
117
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,508
“I'm gonna go to get the milk.“
118
00:06:26,675 --> 00:06:29,111
And it would be,
something lunatic would happen to her.
119
00:06:29,278 --> 00:06:32,247
S0 her life was like that all the time.
120
00:06:32,414 --> 00:06:35,584
She and Sharon, her girlfriend at the time,
brought--
121
00:06:35,751 --> 00:06:37,853
They had some money they had to bring
to the bank...
122
00:06:38,020 --> 00:06:41,123
...and they brought it and dropped it
in a puddle and brought it home...
123
00:06:41,290 --> 00:06:44,493
...and baked it in the oven to dry it off
and set it on fire.
124
00:06:44,660 --> 00:06:46,528
That kind of stuff happened all the time.
125
00:06:46,695 --> 00:06:51,033
It was just--
I mean, she was a great character.
126
00:06:51,199 --> 00:06:53,635
And every day was like that for her.
127
00:06:53,802 --> 00:06:56,571
S0 thank God she put it down,
because they were very funny stories.
128
00:06:56,738 --> 00:06:59,341
She would tell us what would happen
in the course of the day...
129
00:06:59,508 --> 00:07:01,643
...and you would just think,
“God, this is too good."
130
00:07:01,810 --> 00:07:04,279
She just had adventures. Ha-ha-ha.
131
00:07:04,446 --> 00:07:08,750
She would say, "I'm gonna dress down and go
to Hyannis to pick up my welfare checks."
132
00:07:08,917 --> 00:07:12,988
And I would see her on the highway in
a monkey fur coat looking like Cookie Mueller.
133
00:07:13,155 --> 00:07:14,523
I mean, she looked amazing.
134
00:07:14,690 --> 00:07:16,425
And I thought, “She thinks that's normal."
135
00:07:16,591 --> 00:07:19,594
I mean, she has no clue anymore
what normal is.
136
00:07:19,761 --> 00:07:21,330
She doesn't. She really doesn't.
137
00:07:21,496 --> 00:07:23,632
She was really pretty unique.
138
00:07:23,799 --> 00:07:25,233
She really quite was. She was great.
139
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:26,935
MAN:
How old was she when you met?
140
00:07:27,102 --> 00:07:30,739
I met her-- She was young.
She had just had Max. Her child, Max.
141
00:07:30,906 --> 00:07:33,375
And I remember going over
to her house one day...
142
00:07:33,542 --> 00:07:39,715
...and she was peeling potatoes,
and Max was screaming, crying.
143
00:07:39,881 --> 00:07:41,083
And I said, “What's going on?“
144
00:07:41,249 --> 00:07:44,219
She said, "Well, potatoes are his friends.“
145
00:07:44,386 --> 00:07:47,055
I thought, “Oh, my God!"
146
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[LAUGHING]
147
00:07:48,657 --> 00:07:52,361
So, I mean, it was just-...
She had just Max, so she was pretty young.
148
00:07:52,527 --> 00:07:53,862
I mean, she was young then.
149
00:07:54,029 --> 00:07:56,365
But I guess we all were then.
150
00:07:56,531 --> 00:07:59,868
In Provincetown, she was pretty sedate.
She raised Max.
151
00:08:00,035 --> 00:08:02,104
And, you know, it was really quiet there.
152
00:08:02,270 --> 00:08:05,841
But when she got to New York,
she became something else. She became--
153
00:08:06,008 --> 00:08:07,743
And that was when she started to write too.
154
00:08:07,909 --> 00:08:10,879
I think she became a real personality
in her own right.
155
00:08:11,046 --> 00:08:14,483
I think, in Provincetown,
she was just, you know, just Cookie.
156
00:08:14,649 --> 00:08:19,254
But when she got to New York,
she became quite spectacular.
157
00:08:19,421 --> 00:08:22,224
She was really known.
People knew her everywhere.
158
00:08:22,391 --> 00:08:25,260
I mean, she was sort of
a local downtown celebrity.
159
00:08:25,427 --> 00:08:29,231
And not just from John's movies,
it was really her in her own right, kind of.
160
00:08:29,398 --> 00:08:32,901
You know, I mean, just for being Cookie.
161
00:08:33,068 --> 00:08:37,339
She was just a character.
She was around to be a character.
162
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:44,446
And, uh, she was pretty- John-- You know,
she had this lisp which I always loved, too.
163
00:08:44,613 --> 00:08:48,283
And she was really full of spirits
and really smart...
164
00:08:48,450 --> 00:08:52,721
...and just a lot of laughs.
165
00:08:52,888 --> 00:08:54,856
And strange things would happen to her.
166
00:08:55,023 --> 00:08:59,728
Her and Sharon went on a vacation.
She went to Italy a lot, Positano.
167
00:08:59,895 --> 00:09:02,998
And they had rented a car.
168
00:09:03,165 --> 00:09:05,967
And they had taken the car...
169
00:09:06,134 --> 00:09:09,171
...and on the last day before they were
supposed to return it...
170
00:09:09,337 --> 00:09:13,375
...they had gotten stuck on a train crossing...
171
00:09:13,542 --> 00:09:16,711
...and the gate fell on top of the roof...
172
00:09:16,878 --> 00:09:19,047
...and crushed the roof.
173
00:09:19,681 --> 00:09:23,752
S0 they got out and said,
“Oh, my God! What are we gonna do?“
174
00:09:24,019 --> 00:09:27,122
And they said, "Well, let's just return it.
What are we gonna do?"
175
00:09:27,289 --> 00:09:28,723
“Maybe they won't notice it."
176
00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:31,026
Sharon goes to Cookie,
“Sure, they won't notice...
177
00:09:31,193 --> 00:09:32,727
...there's a crease on top of the car!"
178
00:09:32,894 --> 00:09:35,097
[WITH LISP]
“I don't know, maybe they won't notice it.“
179
00:09:35,263 --> 00:09:37,566
[IN NORMAL VOICE]
S0 they drive to the rental car place...
180
00:09:37,732 --> 00:09:39,034
Ha-ah, typical Cookie story.
181
00:09:39,201 --> 00:09:43,271
They drive, return this crushed car.
The top is crushed. The roof.
182
00:09:43,438 --> 00:09:45,073
And they return it.
183
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,576
And the guy checks the car out.
184
00:09:47,742 --> 00:09:50,679
And lets them go.
He doesn't see the crush- Why?
185
00:09:50,846 --> 00:09:52,347
He was a dwarf.
186
00:09:52,514 --> 00:09:55,717
There was a dwarf working
at the rental car place.
187
00:09:55,884 --> 00:09:58,420
And he was the guy checking the car out.
188
00:09:58,587 --> 00:10:00,188
[LAUGHS]
189
00:10:00,722 --> 00:10:04,226
It was one- Here's another story. Um...
190
00:10:05,527 --> 00:10:09,564
Cookie liked to be out and about.
She went to a lot of parties and stuff.
191
00:10:09,731 --> 00:10:14,603
She crawled the fire escape
to get into Studio 54, those kind of stories.
192
00:10:14,769 --> 00:10:16,805
But one of my best ones was--
193
00:10:16,972 --> 00:10:20,976
Best stories about her was--
In this kind of context- was...
194
00:10:21,143 --> 00:10:26,214
...she was in Berlin and she didn't have
enough money to pay the hotel bill.
195
00:10:26,381 --> 00:10:30,952
S0 in order to avoid the hotel bill,
she took an exit...
196
00:10:31,119 --> 00:10:33,955
She packed her bags.
She had a little bag or something in Berlin.
197
00:10:34,122 --> 00:10:37,492
And she left the exit in back of the hotel.
198
00:10:37,659 --> 00:10:42,030
And was trying to, like, get away from,
you know, not be seen in the lobby.
199
00:10:42,197 --> 00:10:43,732
S0 she was looking for a way out.
200
00:10:43,899 --> 00:10:46,168
All these alleyways and stuff like that.
201
00:10:46,334 --> 00:10:49,304
And she came to a wall,
she climbed the wall.
202
00:10:49,471 --> 00:10:52,474
She was starting to climb the wall
and she realized, she got to the top...
203
00:10:52,641 --> 00:10:56,478
...she was at the Berlin Wall,
and she was headed in the wrong direction.
204
00:10:56,645 --> 00:10:58,713
Headed into East Germany.
205
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,015
[CHUCKLING]
206
00:11:00,182 --> 00:11:01,383
That was another Cookie story.
207
00:11:01,550 --> 00:11:04,386
MAN: She wrote an essay about that. Yeah
-Did she? Didn't read that one.
208
00:11:04,553 --> 00:11:06,688
MAN: I think she was trying to
get out of the laundry room, as well.
209
00:11:06,855 --> 00:11:10,425
Yeah. True story.
I mean, these are amazing stories.
210
00:11:10,592 --> 00:11:12,427
And it all just happened to Cookie.
211
00:11:12,594 --> 00:11:14,863
MAN:
That must've been a tough death to take.
212
00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:18,466
Oh, God. That poor child.
213
00:11:23,638 --> 00:11:27,309
MAN: She died
just shortly after her boyfriend died, right?
214
00:11:27,475 --> 00:11:30,145
Mm-hm. Husband.
215
00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:32,414
Vittorio.
216
00:11:34,449 --> 00:11:35,483
Yes, it was horrible.
217
00:11:35,650 --> 00:11:38,954
Because she was demented in the end
and it lasted forever.
218
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,389
MAN:
S0 was she not cognizant of people?
219
00:11:41,556 --> 00:11:44,859
We don't know. She was not able
to respond. That's all we knew.
220
00:11:45,026 --> 00:11:49,531
She was paralyzed on one side of her body
and I think blind in one eye and...
221
00:11:50,999 --> 00:11:55,503
She was very vegetable-like
and it was horrible to see that...
222
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:57,572
...a long time, she was a tough cookie.
MAN: A year?
223
00:11:57,739 --> 00:11:59,474
Yeah, more, maybe.
224
00:11:59,641 --> 00:12:04,646
I noticed that she--
Her speech was going one year.
225
00:12:04,813 --> 00:12:06,248
MAN: How do you mean,
like slurred, or...?
226
00:12:06,414 --> 00:12:08,350
Uh, different.
227
00:12:09,884 --> 00:12:11,253
[DOG BARKING]
228
00:12:11,419 --> 00:12:14,155
- More infantile. A little more infantile.
MAN: Mm-hm.
229
00:12:14,322 --> 00:12:17,425
And things that she wanted to talk about
was, um...
230
00:12:18,727 --> 00:12:24,833
...not like her usual high-powered self.
231
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:30,038
And, um, then she called me up
and she wanted to spend a weekend with me...
232
00:12:30,205 --> 00:12:34,109
...so I went out to spend a weekend with her
and I noticed that she was--
233
00:12:34,276 --> 00:12:37,345
She wasn't right. Her brains weren't right.
234
00:12:37,512 --> 00:12:42,450
And then it went pretty quickly downhill
after that.
235
00:12:42,617 --> 00:12:45,120
Sharon took care of her a lot.
236
00:12:46,187 --> 00:12:48,390
Sharon's a good person.
237
00:12:48,556 --> 00:12:50,558
KOPER: I spoke to her a couple days
before she died.
238
00:12:50,725 --> 00:12:52,794
I talked to her 0n the phone.
239
00:12:52,961 --> 00:12:56,064
Uh, and we were laughing again.
240
00:12:56,264 --> 00:12:58,433
She visited us in California,
her and Vittorio...
241
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,537
...when they had found out--
When they had gotten the diagnosis.
242
00:13:02,904 --> 00:13:08,576
And, uh, you know, it was...
S0 many people were gone.
243
00:13:08,743 --> 00:13:10,812
A lot of people burned out off of those days.
244
00:13:10,979 --> 00:13:14,149
I mean, you burned out or you stayed alive.
245
00:13:14,316 --> 00:13:18,420
It was kind of a fast crazy crowd. Uh...
246
00:13:18,586 --> 00:13:22,090
But that's the kind of people we were, really.
21831
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