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00:00:10,750 --> 00:00:14,320
William Colby has been
missing since April 27th.
2
00:00:14,421 --> 00:00:16,956
On the evening of that day,
he went for a canoe ride
3
00:00:17,057 --> 00:00:19,992
near his vacation home
on Cobb Island.
4
00:00:20,093 --> 00:00:22,261
His canoe was found
washed up on the banks
5
00:00:22,363 --> 00:00:25,465
of the Wicomico
River April 28th.
6
00:00:36,379 --> 00:00:38,113
In other news, the search
continues today in Maryland
7
00:00:38,214 --> 00:00:40,482
for former CIA Director
William Colby.
8
00:00:40,584 --> 00:00:41,984
He is missing and
presumed drowned
9
00:00:42,086 --> 00:00:44,754
after an apparent
boating accident.
10
00:00:44,855 --> 00:00:48,326
A boating accident in strong
currents or foul play?
11
00:00:48,426 --> 00:00:50,193
In addition to being
a master spy,
12
00:00:50,295 --> 00:00:53,297
William Colby was an
accomplished sailor.
13
00:00:58,805 --> 00:01:01,373
When the former Director
of the CIA is missing
14
00:01:01,474 --> 00:01:03,041
not much is ruled out.
15
00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:28,238
My father would always have
the same dark wooden dresser.
16
00:01:28,338 --> 00:01:31,340
It had some socks in one drawer,
and underwear in some drawer,
17
00:01:31,442 --> 00:01:33,810
and his shirts.
18
00:01:33,911 --> 00:01:36,546
But on the top drawer,
you'd pull it out
19
00:01:36,648 --> 00:01:40,284
and it was full
of ribbons...
20
00:01:41,253 --> 00:01:44,790
...bullets,
passport...
21
00:01:46,660 --> 00:01:51,031
...gun.
22
00:01:51,132 --> 00:01:52,766
Hmm.
23
00:01:52,867 --> 00:01:55,669
What does he do?
24
00:01:55,770 --> 00:01:56,803
There have
been allegations
25
00:01:56,904 --> 00:01:59,906
that this was
an assassination program.
26
00:02:00,008 --> 00:02:02,009
I am against
assassination.
27
00:02:02,110 --> 00:02:03,944
I think it's
counterproductive.
28
00:02:04,046 --> 00:02:06,747
Uh, and I've issued
directives against it.
29
00:02:06,849 --> 00:02:10,118
But I confess in the dark,
back reaches of my mind
30
00:02:10,219 --> 00:02:12,287
I would have very cheerfully
helped carry the bomb
31
00:02:12,389 --> 00:02:14,123
into Hitler's
bunker in, uh,
32
00:02:14,224 --> 00:02:16,693
out in Poland
in, uh, 1944.
33
00:02:19,698 --> 00:02:21,465
My father, he was good
at a lot of things,
34
00:02:21,566 --> 00:02:25,170
but he was very good
at making war.
35
00:02:28,274 --> 00:02:31,009
December 7th was
a beautiful Sunday.
36
00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:34,145
I was up bright
and early making breakfast.
37
00:02:34,247 --> 00:02:36,082
I did happen to look
out over Koko Head
38
00:02:36,183 --> 00:02:40,220
where I was living,
these planes were coming by.
39
00:02:40,321 --> 00:02:44,025
And they were not planes
that I recognized.
40
00:02:45,927 --> 00:02:49,430
The radio was on:
Mormon tabernacle choir,
41
00:02:49,531 --> 00:02:52,133
and all of a sudden,
a man's voice comes over.
42
00:02:52,234 --> 00:02:54,135
"The islands
are under attack."
43
00:02:59,642 --> 00:03:01,877
When I got to Pearl
the next day,
44
00:03:01,979 --> 00:03:04,013
the birds
in the streets,
45
00:03:04,115 --> 00:03:07,885
they were all dead
from the concussion.
46
00:03:07,986 --> 00:03:09,887
Corpses all over the place.
47
00:03:12,591 --> 00:03:14,692
When Pearl
Harbor happened,
48
00:03:14,794 --> 00:03:18,998
everything changed in Hawaii
and the whole world.
49
00:03:24,071 --> 00:03:27,574
I met your dad
on a blind date.
50
00:03:27,675 --> 00:03:30,377
He was in law school
at Columbia.
51
00:03:30,478 --> 00:03:33,380
He went into the field
artillery originally,
52
00:03:33,481 --> 00:03:36,951
but really wanted
the parachute infantry.
53
00:03:37,052 --> 00:03:40,956
So, he said that
during a physical exam,
54
00:03:41,056 --> 00:03:43,291
he mentioned that his eyesight
wasn't all that good,
55
00:03:43,393 --> 00:03:45,261
and the doctor said, "as long
as you can see the ground
56
00:03:45,362 --> 00:03:47,897
for jumping, uh,
we'll take you."
57
00:03:47,998 --> 00:03:49,498
And that's what he did.
58
00:03:53,037 --> 00:03:56,373
Your dad joined us,
Area B-1.
59
00:03:56,475 --> 00:03:59,377
He was artillery,
I was infantry.
60
00:03:59,478 --> 00:04:03,315
Bill was out of those
New England schools and...
61
00:04:03,416 --> 00:04:06,852
I was a westerner.
62
00:04:06,953 --> 00:04:09,388
One day,
a major from O.S.S.
63
00:04:09,490 --> 00:04:11,357
Asked us a
simple question:
64
00:04:11,458 --> 00:04:15,095
"Those of you who are
interested in hazardous duty
65
00:04:15,196 --> 00:04:19,466
behind enemy lines,
remain here.
66
00:04:19,568 --> 00:04:22,636
Those who are not interested
are excused."
67
00:04:22,737 --> 00:04:24,071
Well, most everybody left.
68
00:04:24,173 --> 00:04:26,575
But I thought that
that sounded interesting.
69
00:04:26,676 --> 00:04:28,243
That's why I was in
a parachute regiment,
70
00:04:28,344 --> 00:04:29,711
I thought.
71
00:04:29,813 --> 00:04:31,814
Somewhere in America,
the United States
72
00:04:31,915 --> 00:04:33,282
is developing hundreds
of recruits
73
00:04:33,383 --> 00:04:35,651
for this specialized service.
74
00:04:35,752 --> 00:04:37,253
Hand picked
for the aid
75
00:04:37,355 --> 00:04:39,623
of Army and Navy
intelligence facilities,
76
00:04:39,724 --> 00:04:41,859
the men are taken under guard
to the secret training camp,
77
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,463
which is to be their home
for the weeks to follow.
78
00:04:45,564 --> 00:04:48,032
This isolated,
heavily wooded terrain
79
00:04:48,133 --> 00:04:49,567
offers an excellent
proving ground
80
00:04:49,668 --> 00:04:53,672
for the student
of guerilla tactics.
81
00:04:53,773 --> 00:04:55,241
From the moment
of their induction,
82
00:04:55,342 --> 00:04:56,408
the identities
of the recruits
83
00:04:56,509 --> 00:04:58,444
remain a carefully
guarded secret,
84
00:04:58,546 --> 00:05:02,250
which explains the use
of masks in this film.
85
00:05:02,350 --> 00:05:04,551
From whence they came,
or for what perilous mission
86
00:05:04,653 --> 00:05:08,123
they're being prepared is
the concern of nobody at camp.
87
00:05:08,223 --> 00:05:10,224
But all of them
have this in common:
88
00:05:10,325 --> 00:05:12,493
They burn with a
desire for vengeance
89
00:05:12,595 --> 00:05:14,596
and they mean to deal
it out as it was given...
90
00:05:14,697 --> 00:05:15,597
at close
quarters
91
00:05:15,698 --> 00:05:19,235
with no holds
barred.
92
00:05:19,336 --> 00:05:22,105
We had hand-to-hand
combat training...
93
00:05:26,745 --> 00:05:28,545
...instinctive
firing...
94
00:05:33,019 --> 00:05:34,853
...a limited amount
of knife fighting...
95
00:05:39,126 --> 00:05:40,626
...demolitions.
96
00:05:44,197 --> 00:05:48,335
We had many courses
in surreptitious entry,
97
00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:51,405
and we were all oriented
on getting ourselves trained
98
00:05:51,506 --> 00:05:53,874
for this mission,
doing things
99
00:05:53,976 --> 00:05:59,949
that would increase
our survivability.
100
00:06:00,050 --> 00:06:01,417
Those days
were filled
101
00:06:01,518 --> 00:06:03,953
with a sense
of urgency.
102
00:06:10,394 --> 00:06:12,662
Everybody
wanted to go
103
00:06:12,763 --> 00:06:16,066
and serve
in that war.
104
00:06:16,168 --> 00:06:19,136
The men and the women
had conviction
105
00:06:19,237 --> 00:06:20,938
that they were doing
what was right
106
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,709
to preserve precious values
of humanity
107
00:06:23,810 --> 00:06:26,178
that were
being violated,
108
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:27,813
and off they went.
109
00:06:30,317 --> 00:06:32,385
We went together
on a ship
110
00:06:32,486 --> 00:06:34,654
from Fort Hamilton,
New York,
111
00:06:34,756 --> 00:06:38,192
to one of the ports
of, uh, Glasgow.
112
00:06:38,293 --> 00:06:42,364
We learned from
T.E. Lawrence's books.
113
00:06:42,465 --> 00:06:44,632
They would emphasize
how important it is
114
00:06:44,734 --> 00:06:49,071
to know the
local people:
115
00:06:49,172 --> 00:06:52,141
What their
idiosyncrasies are,
116
00:06:52,242 --> 00:06:54,944
likes and
dislikes,
117
00:06:55,046 --> 00:06:57,948
and above all,
what are their taboos,
118
00:06:58,049 --> 00:07:00,784
the things that you don't
want to get involved in,
119
00:07:00,885 --> 00:07:02,319
so that you wouldn't
give away the fact
120
00:07:02,421 --> 00:07:04,789
that you were
an American
121
00:07:04,890 --> 00:07:07,358
so deep
in enemy territory.
122
00:07:14,234 --> 00:07:16,435
O.S.S. Did
send in people
123
00:07:16,537 --> 00:07:20,741
to do underground work
and sabotage.
124
00:07:20,841 --> 00:07:22,675
Break up communications.
125
00:07:22,778 --> 00:07:26,213
Bill Colby was one
of the most, uh,
126
00:07:26,314 --> 00:07:29,951
renowned one of these
in his operations in Norway.
127
00:07:31,487 --> 00:07:34,890
Your dad
was wiry, small,
128
00:07:34,991 --> 00:07:37,192
but he could ski.
129
00:07:37,294 --> 00:07:39,262
He had
taken charge
130
00:07:39,363 --> 00:07:41,697
of the
underground group,
131
00:07:41,799 --> 00:07:44,600
mostly all of Norwegian
background, Americans,
132
00:07:44,702 --> 00:07:48,339
many of them,
but great peril.
133
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,441
Norway was
occupied,
134
00:07:50,543 --> 00:07:54,080
and Germans
were...
135
00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:56,347
pressing
from all sides.
136
00:07:56,449 --> 00:07:59,217
And the mission,
well the mission is,
137
00:07:59,319 --> 00:08:01,020
was very exciting.
138
00:08:01,121 --> 00:08:03,155
The mission was to blow up
bridges and trains
139
00:08:03,256 --> 00:08:05,891
to prevent the movement
of German troops
140
00:08:05,993 --> 00:08:08,028
through Norway.
141
00:08:08,129 --> 00:08:11,164
We were apprised
of what was going on.
142
00:08:11,266 --> 00:08:13,067
We used v-mails.
143
00:08:13,168 --> 00:08:17,039
They were quick letters,
some censored, I suppose.
144
00:08:18,308 --> 00:08:20,342
The mission was successful.
145
00:08:20,443 --> 00:08:22,377
Bill was Silver Star.
146
00:08:25,049 --> 00:08:27,150
The whole concept
of Special Forces
147
00:08:27,251 --> 00:08:29,686
came out
of these operations.
148
00:08:29,787 --> 00:08:31,154
That was
the beginning
149
00:08:31,255 --> 00:08:33,957
of the ideal way
of building,
150
00:08:34,059 --> 00:08:36,327
uh, a...
a force inside
151
00:08:36,428 --> 00:08:38,395
an occupied,
uh, country.
152
00:08:40,366 --> 00:08:42,067
My father was always
the coolest character
153
00:08:42,168 --> 00:08:44,302
I ever knew.
154
00:08:44,403 --> 00:08:47,105
After the war, we used to go
take picnics in France,
155
00:08:47,207 --> 00:08:48,608
and he'd say, "This is
where we jumped in,
156
00:08:48,709 --> 00:08:51,444
and this is the ditch
where I lay in for two days
157
00:08:51,545 --> 00:08:54,447
while the Germans
marched by."
158
00:08:54,549 --> 00:08:56,250
I remember asking him,
"Well, why didn't you
159
00:08:56,351 --> 00:08:57,651
just shoot
at the Germans?"
160
00:08:57,752 --> 00:09:00,154
And he goes, "There were only
like four or five of us,
161
00:09:00,256 --> 00:09:01,923
six to eight hundred
of them.
162
00:09:02,024 --> 00:09:04,993
They'd kill us all."
163
00:09:05,094 --> 00:09:07,929
He'd talk about the Charge
of the Light Brigade,
164
00:09:08,031 --> 00:09:10,399
six hundred people
racing into this valley.
165
00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:12,902
And I'd say it was
a suicide mission.
166
00:09:13,004 --> 00:09:17,241
He said yeah,
but the glory of it all.
167
00:09:17,341 --> 00:09:19,209
When he
volunteered,
168
00:09:19,310 --> 00:09:21,211
he was looking
for action.
169
00:09:23,182 --> 00:09:24,715
In my family,
everybody gave my father
170
00:09:24,816 --> 00:09:26,717
a wide berth.
171
00:09:29,722 --> 00:09:31,757
He thought about coming
to Washington,
172
00:09:31,858 --> 00:09:33,792
and working
for the government,
173
00:09:33,894 --> 00:09:35,895
NLRB as it turned out,
174
00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:38,498
"National Labor
Relations Board."
175
00:09:38,599 --> 00:09:41,334
To tell you
the truth, Carl,
176
00:09:41,436 --> 00:09:44,371
I don't know exactly when
your father moved over
177
00:09:44,472 --> 00:09:48,310
from NLRB to, uh,
to the CIA,
178
00:09:48,411 --> 00:09:49,811
but I can
tell you this,
179
00:09:49,912 --> 00:09:53,816
We lived in
southeast Washington.
180
00:09:53,916 --> 00:09:56,685
And your dad used
to get a ride in to NLRB
181
00:09:56,787 --> 00:09:58,654
with our neighbors
George and Phyllis.
182
00:09:58,755 --> 00:10:01,190
I can't remember
their last name.
183
00:10:01,291 --> 00:10:03,859
One weekend,
Phyllis asked me,
184
00:10:03,962 --> 00:10:06,863
"Barbara, we've always
dropped Bill off at..."
185
00:10:06,965 --> 00:10:09,066
Uh, whatever
the address was,
186
00:10:09,168 --> 00:10:11,736
"Last time we dropped him,
we looked back,
187
00:10:11,837 --> 00:10:13,905
and he was hotfooting it
across a couple of blocks,
188
00:10:14,006 --> 00:10:16,674
and, uh, going in
another direction."
189
00:10:16,776 --> 00:10:21,147
And that is truly
how I really learned
190
00:10:21,248 --> 00:10:24,116
that your dad was in
another line of work.
191
00:10:26,354 --> 00:10:29,322
The United States was the
only power in the world.
192
00:10:29,424 --> 00:10:30,858
Time Magazine
came out with
193
00:10:30,959 --> 00:10:34,295
"This is the
American century."
194
00:10:34,396 --> 00:10:37,565
Japan, which had been
such a ferocious enemy,
195
00:10:37,667 --> 00:10:40,569
all of a sudden
a non-sulking,
196
00:10:40,670 --> 00:10:42,904
dependable
colony,
197
00:10:43,007 --> 00:10:46,276
or whatever you want
to call it in those days.
198
00:10:46,377 --> 00:10:48,111
It was a different world.
199
00:10:52,884 --> 00:10:56,053
The CIA was considered
a pretty good thing.
200
00:10:56,154 --> 00:10:58,889
When you came into a place
as an American,
201
00:10:58,991 --> 00:11:03,162
you were regarded with
considerable respect.
202
00:11:03,262 --> 00:11:06,464
You know, you're
representing a big power,
203
00:11:06,566 --> 00:11:09,468
and the biggest power
anybody ever knew.
204
00:11:18,047 --> 00:11:21,349
From Stettin
in the Baltic
205
00:11:21,450 --> 00:11:24,285
to Trieste
in the Adriatic,
206
00:11:24,387 --> 00:11:27,289
an "Iron Curtain" has descended
across the continent.
207
00:11:31,262 --> 00:11:34,397
And so an Iron Curtain
fell across Europe,
208
00:11:34,498 --> 00:11:37,233
an Iron Curtain
dividing the free world
209
00:11:37,335 --> 00:11:39,235
from the slave world.
210
00:11:42,274 --> 00:11:46,011
In the 1950s,
we had a contest going on:
211
00:11:46,112 --> 00:11:48,880
Who will dominate
western Europe?
212
00:11:48,981 --> 00:11:51,683
World War Two ended
with the United States
213
00:11:51,784 --> 00:11:55,621
planted firmly
in half of Europe,
214
00:11:55,723 --> 00:11:57,824
with Europe
divided at the Elbe,
215
00:11:57,925 --> 00:12:00,560
but with what
was west of the Elbe,
216
00:12:00,662 --> 00:12:03,731
politically and socially
very vulnerable.
217
00:12:03,832 --> 00:12:06,500
Nineteen fifties
was a time
218
00:12:06,602 --> 00:12:09,904
of really serious
political contest
219
00:12:10,005 --> 00:12:12,907
over the future of that
portion of Europe.
220
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:17,947
At the end
of the war,
221
00:12:18,048 --> 00:12:21,651
Italy was
almost destroyed.
222
00:12:21,753 --> 00:12:24,388
The industrial potential
was down.
223
00:12:24,489 --> 00:12:28,760
And political situation
was very bad.
224
00:12:28,861 --> 00:12:33,632
The Communist Party was huge
and well organized.
225
00:12:33,733 --> 00:12:36,535
The largest Communist
Party in Europe.
226
00:12:38,972 --> 00:12:41,740
The American government
was concerned how things
227
00:12:41,842 --> 00:12:43,610
they were going in Italy.
228
00:12:43,711 --> 00:12:46,946
And, uh, your father
was sent there
229
00:12:47,047 --> 00:12:50,818
to be responsible maybe
of the largest operation
230
00:12:50,919 --> 00:12:55,190
that CIA has
ever done before.
231
00:12:55,291 --> 00:12:57,959
They have
to verify
232
00:12:58,060 --> 00:13:00,562
that the
operation
233
00:13:00,663 --> 00:13:03,598
to restore
Europe
234
00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:06,469
was going
smoothly.
235
00:13:06,570 --> 00:13:08,905
And of course
the Communist Party
236
00:13:09,007 --> 00:13:11,375
and of course
U.S.S.R.
237
00:13:11,476 --> 00:13:15,113
Was working to destroy
this operation.
238
00:13:17,049 --> 00:13:20,653
In Italy, we had
a huge Communist Party.
239
00:13:20,753 --> 00:13:22,487
And I myself
watched closely
240
00:13:22,589 --> 00:13:24,356
the Italian
political developments,
241
00:13:24,458 --> 00:13:26,091
because as
a dedicated Communist
242
00:13:26,193 --> 00:13:28,727
I believed that Italy
will go one day Communist.
243
00:13:28,830 --> 00:13:30,530
Okay,
no Soviet invasion,
244
00:13:30,631 --> 00:13:32,699
but the strength
of the left movement
245
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,535
was so high that
Italian Communists
246
00:13:35,637 --> 00:13:39,073
will win the elections,
form a coalition government,
247
00:13:39,174 --> 00:13:43,045
and lead
to Pro-Communist Italy.
248
00:13:43,146 --> 00:13:45,714
Every election
was a cliffhanger.
249
00:13:45,815 --> 00:13:48,884
Whether the Communists
would win the elections,
250
00:13:48,985 --> 00:13:50,452
or
failing that,
251
00:13:50,554 --> 00:13:54,091
they would
launch an uprising.
252
00:13:54,191 --> 00:13:55,859
Well, I worked
for your father.
253
00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,161
He was the boss.
254
00:13:58,263 --> 00:14:01,599
Communists pretty much
controlled the north of Italy.
255
00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:03,501
They had control
of the trade unions,
256
00:14:03,603 --> 00:14:05,670
control of the cooperatives.
257
00:14:05,771 --> 00:14:07,806
The Communist newspapers
that had been underground
258
00:14:07,907 --> 00:14:10,141
were now out
in the open.
259
00:14:10,244 --> 00:14:12,778
And they were able
to portray themselves
260
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,115
as not toadies
of the Soviet Union,
261
00:14:16,216 --> 00:14:18,784
in spite of the fact
that we estimated at the time
262
00:14:18,887 --> 00:14:21,221
that they were getting
forty million dollars a year,
263
00:14:21,322 --> 00:14:24,291
at a time when we were putting
four, or five, or six million
264
00:14:24,393 --> 00:14:28,497
into the Italian politics.
265
00:14:28,597 --> 00:14:30,932
The threat was
certainly there,
266
00:14:31,034 --> 00:14:34,403
that Italy
might go Communist.
267
00:14:34,504 --> 00:14:37,273
We had State
Department cover.
268
00:14:37,374 --> 00:14:39,708
Your father
was a political officer,
269
00:14:39,810 --> 00:14:43,079
and we were on
the diplomatic list.
270
00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:47,585
In reality, um,
he worked for CIA,
271
00:14:47,686 --> 00:14:50,721
but that was never
stated overtly.
272
00:14:50,822 --> 00:14:52,823
There were also
CIA personnel
273
00:14:52,926 --> 00:14:55,961
who were undercover.
274
00:14:56,062 --> 00:14:58,363
So your dad
had to blend
275
00:14:58,465 --> 00:15:00,199
the
diplomatic side
276
00:15:00,301 --> 00:15:03,336
with the political
action that CIA
277
00:15:03,437 --> 00:15:06,105
was tasked with.
278
00:15:06,207 --> 00:15:10,312
Colby in Rome
is keeping up the morale
279
00:15:10,412 --> 00:15:13,213
of the Italian
security people
280
00:15:13,316 --> 00:15:16,017
who are keeping track
of what is still
281
00:15:16,118 --> 00:15:19,689
a very dangerous
armed Communist Party,
282
00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:23,660
giving them firm leadership
and encouragement
283
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,063
and by coming
from a serious,
284
00:15:27,165 --> 00:15:28,832
professional
background...
285
00:15:28,933 --> 00:15:30,267
the background
of espionage,
286
00:15:30,368 --> 00:15:31,602
where the first thing
you learn
287
00:15:31,703 --> 00:15:33,737
is most people lie
most of the time,
288
00:15:33,839 --> 00:15:35,039
and things like that.
289
00:15:35,140 --> 00:15:37,508
Colby was able
to be well-informed
290
00:15:37,610 --> 00:15:39,377
about Italian
politics,
291
00:15:39,478 --> 00:15:43,515
and inject a much more
realistic view of Italy
292
00:15:43,617 --> 00:15:45,050
than the one
that was generated
293
00:15:45,151 --> 00:15:48,387
by Ambassador Luce,
and by,
294
00:15:48,489 --> 00:15:51,057
most of the ambassadors,
uh, were,
295
00:15:51,158 --> 00:15:53,059
were simply
not up to the job.
296
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,431
The United States
policy
297
00:15:57,532 --> 00:15:58,833
was
to support
298
00:15:58,934 --> 00:16:01,936
the Christian Democratic Party
in any means possible.
299
00:16:02,038 --> 00:16:05,007
And we certainly
assisted financially,
300
00:16:05,108 --> 00:16:08,210
but also guidance
in organizing their rallies,
301
00:16:08,312 --> 00:16:10,179
their propaganda.
302
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,315
Political advice...
how do you do it,
303
00:16:12,416 --> 00:16:14,384
how do you win
an election?
304
00:16:14,486 --> 00:16:17,287
And we had a very large
covert action program
305
00:16:17,389 --> 00:16:20,024
in Italy.
306
00:16:20,125 --> 00:16:24,362
It was not by chance,
that in the name of the party
307
00:16:24,463 --> 00:16:28,668
they put Partito
Democratico Cristiano.
308
00:16:29,936 --> 00:16:33,807
Christian Party was very
linked to the Church.
309
00:16:36,377 --> 00:16:39,212
We lived next door
to the daughter
310
00:16:39,313 --> 00:16:42,282
of Premier de Gasperi.
311
00:16:42,384 --> 00:16:46,221
You and the boys
were friends.
312
00:16:46,321 --> 00:16:47,822
We'd get together
for dinner,
313
00:16:47,923 --> 00:16:51,560
play charades
in Italian.
314
00:16:51,661 --> 00:16:53,429
We had a breeze,
really,
315
00:16:53,530 --> 00:16:56,965
with our State
Department cover.
316
00:16:57,068 --> 00:17:00,638
There were marvelous
opportunities for learning.
317
00:17:00,738 --> 00:17:04,275
I studied Italian at the
Instituto per Stranieri
318
00:17:04,376 --> 00:17:06,944
over by the Pantheon.
319
00:17:09,782 --> 00:17:13,853
Imagine walking through
these marvelous places in Rome
320
00:17:13,953 --> 00:17:16,822
that every tourist
wants to see.
321
00:17:20,694 --> 00:17:23,463
And here we were
living this life.
322
00:17:25,266 --> 00:17:28,402
It was a wonderful experience
for a family like ours,
323
00:17:28,503 --> 00:17:30,938
who was already
Roman Catholic.
324
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,174
We had one child
born in Rome,
325
00:17:33,275 --> 00:17:34,943
baptized
at St. Peter's,
326
00:17:35,044 --> 00:17:38,012
under the cupola.
327
00:17:38,115 --> 00:17:41,250
Two others making
their first communions.
328
00:17:44,020 --> 00:17:46,388
The oldest child
was serving mass,
329
00:17:46,491 --> 00:17:50,495
Italian-style,
his Latin was very good.
330
00:17:50,595 --> 00:17:52,329
We were very fortunate.
331
00:17:52,431 --> 00:17:55,767
This was a superb experience.
332
00:17:55,868 --> 00:17:58,369
Oh, those happy days.
333
00:17:58,471 --> 00:18:01,907
Italy was wonderful.
334
00:18:02,008 --> 00:18:03,475
My mother
was vivacious,
335
00:18:03,576 --> 00:18:06,879
fun, always youthful.
336
00:18:06,981 --> 00:18:10,518
She was the world to me.
337
00:18:10,618 --> 00:18:13,419
They met on a blind date.
338
00:18:13,522 --> 00:18:16,390
She supported him
in law school,
339
00:18:16,491 --> 00:18:19,193
working at
Abraham and Strauss.
340
00:18:19,295 --> 00:18:21,797
They were very optimistic.
341
00:18:21,898 --> 00:18:25,300
They seemed to appreciate
what they had.
342
00:18:25,401 --> 00:18:28,703
He was very Catholic,
and she was very Catholic.
343
00:18:32,109 --> 00:18:35,378
In Rome, I thought he worked
for the embassy.
344
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,517
I went to a Catholic school,
it was up on the Via Cassia.
345
00:18:39,618 --> 00:18:42,687
I was an altar boy.
346
00:18:42,788 --> 00:18:45,790
And the Church was
just everywhere in Rome,
347
00:18:45,891 --> 00:18:48,626
very powerful.
348
00:18:48,728 --> 00:18:51,497
So magnificent.
349
00:18:51,598 --> 00:18:53,699
You're in this embrace.
350
00:18:53,801 --> 00:18:56,703
All the world
is well,
351
00:18:56,804 --> 00:18:58,872
just follow the dictates
of the Father.
352
00:19:05,380 --> 00:19:07,348
Monks would
come to the house...
353
00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:09,985
Franciscans with
their brown robes,
354
00:19:10,086 --> 00:19:12,821
sandals and the big rope.
355
00:19:12,922 --> 00:19:14,489
And I'd
see him
356
00:19:14,592 --> 00:19:17,794
talking to
a priest,
357
00:19:17,895 --> 00:19:20,463
with his head
slightly bowed,
358
00:19:20,564 --> 00:19:24,468
genuinely interested
in what they say.
359
00:19:24,569 --> 00:19:26,570
If you want to collect
information,
360
00:19:26,671 --> 00:19:28,873
you go in the church.
361
00:19:28,975 --> 00:19:31,176
And your father
distributed
362
00:19:31,277 --> 00:19:34,246
a tremendous amount
of money.
363
00:19:34,347 --> 00:19:38,551
Most of the money,
um, which was, um,
364
00:19:38,652 --> 00:19:41,220
not the money
of the intelligence,
365
00:19:41,321 --> 00:19:45,592
was even distributed
by the Vatican.
366
00:19:45,693 --> 00:19:48,896
They are very well connected.
367
00:19:48,998 --> 00:19:52,400
In each little village there
are more than one church
368
00:19:52,501 --> 00:19:54,903
to distribute this monies.
369
00:19:55,004 --> 00:19:58,807
The cardinal American
who was, uh,
370
00:19:58,909 --> 00:20:00,776
behind this
operation,
371
00:20:00,877 --> 00:20:04,981
he was pretty deeply
involved with your father,
372
00:20:05,082 --> 00:20:08,819
and, um, with,
uh, this,
373
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,888
um, uh,
movement of money,
374
00:20:11,990 --> 00:20:14,392
used it
to contrast
375
00:20:14,493 --> 00:20:17,595
the really
overwhelming power
376
00:20:17,697 --> 00:20:20,432
of the Communist Party.
377
00:20:20,533 --> 00:20:22,968
I didn't know
very much
378
00:20:23,070 --> 00:20:26,439
at all about
the operations,
379
00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:28,808
the techniques.
380
00:20:28,909 --> 00:20:31,978
Sometimes it was
difficult to, um,
381
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,583
to ascertain
just who we were
382
00:20:35,684 --> 00:20:37,685
and where
we were going
383
00:20:37,787 --> 00:20:39,387
at a certain point,
and so on.
384
00:20:39,488 --> 00:20:42,824
One evening,
we went to, um,
385
00:20:42,925 --> 00:20:45,093
we went to
the theater,
386
00:20:45,195 --> 00:20:46,762
and, uh,
I saw...
387
00:20:46,863 --> 00:20:50,266
I recognized
a couple
388
00:20:50,367 --> 00:20:53,769
whom we had dined with
the night before.
389
00:20:53,871 --> 00:20:55,572
And I started
to go over and say,
390
00:20:55,673 --> 00:20:58,375
"Oh, buona sera,
how are you,
391
00:20:58,477 --> 00:21:00,845
wasn't that pleasant
last evening?"
392
00:21:00,946 --> 00:21:03,681
And my husband
took me aside and said,
393
00:21:03,782 --> 00:21:05,817
"Shh, quiet,
quiet.
394
00:21:05,919 --> 00:21:09,389
We don't... before you...
we don't know these people."
395
00:21:09,489 --> 00:21:10,856
We don't know these people?
396
00:21:10,957 --> 00:21:13,892
Well, we did know
these people.
397
00:21:13,995 --> 00:21:15,495
There were times
when really,
398
00:21:15,596 --> 00:21:19,600
I didn't know
what role we were playing.
399
00:21:19,701 --> 00:21:21,369
Who are we tonight?
400
00:21:24,439 --> 00:21:28,276
We'd go somewhere...
family trip on the weekend,
401
00:21:28,378 --> 00:21:30,712
picnic basket
in the back,
402
00:21:30,813 --> 00:21:32,848
and he'd meet
somebody,
403
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:34,717
have a
conversation,
404
00:21:34,818 --> 00:21:37,720
deliver something.
405
00:21:37,821 --> 00:21:40,656
He and my mother
and the family left town,
406
00:21:40,759 --> 00:21:42,126
drove
up north,
407
00:21:42,227 --> 00:21:45,562
and went and passed
a radio to somebody.
408
00:21:45,663 --> 00:21:47,498
So we'd have
a picnic.
409
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,568
That wasn't a lie.
410
00:21:50,669 --> 00:21:52,937
Sometime later,
one of my dad's friends said,
411
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,141
"You know, your mother
has a lot to do
412
00:21:55,242 --> 00:21:58,677
with your
father's success."
413
00:21:58,779 --> 00:22:00,446
They were a great team.
414
00:22:03,051 --> 00:22:07,188
The family
wasn't always let in...
415
00:22:07,289 --> 00:22:10,058
let in to
this world of his.
416
00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:12,727
Um, beginning,
of course,
417
00:22:12,828 --> 00:22:15,063
with this
CIA code
418
00:22:15,165 --> 00:22:17,166
of "need to know."
419
00:22:17,267 --> 00:22:21,004
He never had to really
tell me anything.
420
00:22:21,105 --> 00:22:24,240
Um...
I suppose that's...
421
00:22:24,341 --> 00:22:27,878
that's the CIA
modus operandi,
422
00:22:27,979 --> 00:22:29,213
but even so,
I remember hearing
423
00:22:29,314 --> 00:22:33,051
one CIA wife of a rather
high ranking officer say,
424
00:22:33,151 --> 00:22:36,688
"Oh, my husband
tells me everything."
425
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:38,690
Well, I was a little jealous,
but I thought,
426
00:22:38,791 --> 00:22:40,625
no, it couldn't be.
427
00:22:40,726 --> 00:22:42,127
They don't tell
us everything.
428
00:22:42,229 --> 00:22:44,797
They tell us very little,
if anything.
429
00:22:46,366 --> 00:22:49,435
The provision
of large sums of money
430
00:22:49,537 --> 00:22:53,041
led to the success of the
Christian Democratic Party,
431
00:22:53,141 --> 00:22:55,976
somewhat to the surprise
of many people in Italy
432
00:22:56,078 --> 00:22:59,548
and certainly
to the rest of the world.
433
00:22:59,648 --> 00:23:03,319
Your father
left Rome
434
00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:06,021
before the really
beautiful time starts,
435
00:23:06,123 --> 00:23:08,257
which was the sixties.
436
00:23:08,358 --> 00:23:11,594
We call it la dolce vita,
the sweet life,
437
00:23:11,696 --> 00:23:15,031
which was immortalized
by Fellini.
438
00:23:18,971 --> 00:23:21,405
The government
was well settled,
439
00:23:21,507 --> 00:23:25,110
the economy starts
to improve rapidly.
440
00:23:25,211 --> 00:23:27,913
We call it
the Italian Miracle.
441
00:23:33,187 --> 00:23:35,722
As much
the economy grew,
442
00:23:35,823 --> 00:23:39,560
as less the Communist
Party become.
443
00:23:42,497 --> 00:23:45,967
All the effort they have done
to destroy Italian economy
444
00:23:46,068 --> 00:23:48,770
was mitigated
by your intervention,
445
00:23:48,871 --> 00:23:50,005
I mean, American.
446
00:23:55,679 --> 00:23:59,783
Being in a world
of concealment and deception,
447
00:23:59,884 --> 00:24:03,955
puts a person in a different
space psychologically,
448
00:24:04,055 --> 00:24:07,090
morally,
and socially.
449
00:24:07,193 --> 00:24:09,360
Being an
intelligence officer,
450
00:24:09,461 --> 00:24:12,297
you're in an
adversarial contest;
451
00:24:12,399 --> 00:24:15,267
in a way something
like a war,
452
00:24:15,368 --> 00:24:18,704
and if it's
morally justifiable
453
00:24:18,806 --> 00:24:21,575
to take people's
lives in war, um,
454
00:24:21,676 --> 00:24:25,179
it seems that it may
be morally justifiable
455
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,216
to mislead them
in conflict situations.
456
00:24:28,317 --> 00:24:31,519
Deception in a certain
limited range of cases
457
00:24:31,620 --> 00:24:35,924
is really necessary for
the protection of people
458
00:24:36,025 --> 00:24:37,192
who work in the agency,
the people
459
00:24:37,293 --> 00:24:38,827
whom they're
dealing with,
460
00:24:38,929 --> 00:24:41,598
and the national security.
461
00:24:41,699 --> 00:24:45,970
Deception, um,
in this situation
462
00:24:46,071 --> 00:24:48,138
is unavoidable.
463
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,074
But that one
doesn't want to offer
464
00:24:50,175 --> 00:24:53,912
a kind of blanket
endorsement so that people,
465
00:24:54,013 --> 00:24:55,914
you know,
forget the point about the...
466
00:24:56,015 --> 00:24:59,585
the necessity
of telling the truth.
467
00:24:59,686 --> 00:25:01,053
My dad used to say,
"I already know
468
00:25:01,154 --> 00:25:02,521
what I think.
469
00:25:02,623 --> 00:25:04,857
My job is to listen.
470
00:25:04,958 --> 00:25:06,525
It's not about me,
it's about
471
00:25:06,628 --> 00:25:09,630
who someone else is
and what they may be
472
00:25:09,731 --> 00:25:12,833
able to offer me."
473
00:25:12,934 --> 00:25:14,401
My mother always tried
to find things
474
00:25:14,503 --> 00:25:18,307
to do that were fun
and free and relaxed.
475
00:25:18,407 --> 00:25:21,075
My father would participate,
but there was always
476
00:25:21,177 --> 00:25:24,413
this ever tightening
tension that you're going
477
00:25:24,514 --> 00:25:29,753
to be called to action,
that there will be war,
478
00:25:29,854 --> 00:25:33,357
violence always pervaded
everything.
479
00:25:33,457 --> 00:25:36,793
Happy was not what
his life was about.
480
00:25:36,895 --> 00:25:39,463
His life was about doing
the right thing,
481
00:25:39,564 --> 00:25:43,502
being at the pointy
edge of the spear.
482
00:25:43,603 --> 00:25:44,903
He was in pretty
good shape.
483
00:25:45,004 --> 00:25:46,305
Six o'clock in
the morning,
484
00:25:46,406 --> 00:25:48,173
Canadian Air Force
exercises,
485
00:25:48,275 --> 00:25:52,446
push-ups, jumping jacks,
legs going up and down.
486
00:25:52,546 --> 00:25:55,782
He'd call me sport
when he kind of liked me.
487
00:25:55,884 --> 00:25:59,821
When he was annoyed at you,
you were friend.
488
00:25:59,921 --> 00:26:02,690
"Listen, friend."
489
00:26:02,792 --> 00:26:06,094
If you'd really done something
badly, he'd get the belt out.
490
00:26:06,195 --> 00:26:08,430
He didn't like lying.
491
00:26:08,532 --> 00:26:12,602
He certainly believed in
corporal punishment.
492
00:26:12,703 --> 00:26:15,237
Among friends
he could be relaxed.
493
00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:18,709
Well, frankly he didn't
have any friends.
494
00:26:18,810 --> 00:26:22,780
He had people
he worked with.
495
00:26:22,881 --> 00:26:25,516
He didn't have
a lot of romantic ideas
496
00:26:25,617 --> 00:26:29,154
about spying.
497
00:26:29,255 --> 00:26:33,593
He saw it for what it was,
a dirty business.
498
00:26:40,267 --> 00:26:46,006
In 1959, we arrived
in Vietnam.
499
00:26:46,108 --> 00:26:49,243
This was barely
five years after
500
00:26:49,344 --> 00:26:53,849
the fall of the
French forces.
501
00:26:57,621 --> 00:26:59,822
I remember that one
of the first places
502
00:26:59,923 --> 00:27:05,462
we visited was the
French military cemetery.
503
00:27:05,563 --> 00:27:09,167
Your dad found a friend
buried there,
504
00:27:09,267 --> 00:27:14,072
a friend from the mission
in France in World War Two.
505
00:27:14,173 --> 00:27:17,242
It's incredible.
506
00:27:17,343 --> 00:27:21,380
Saigon was amazing
in those years.
507
00:27:23,383 --> 00:27:27,687
Saigon was still
very French.
508
00:27:27,789 --> 00:27:31,859
French was the language
in which our embassy officers
509
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,529
and their Vietnamese
counterparts spoke
510
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:38,667
at meetings, the language
of the departed power,
511
00:27:38,768 --> 00:27:41,103
French.
512
00:27:41,204 --> 00:27:43,705
Our social contacts
were officials
513
00:27:43,807 --> 00:27:46,942
in the Diem
government.
514
00:27:47,044 --> 00:27:48,812
Our oldest daughter
attended school
515
00:27:48,913 --> 00:27:51,314
with French nuns.
516
00:27:51,415 --> 00:27:55,619
The niece of the President
attended that school.
517
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,324
You boys went to the
American Community School,
518
00:27:59,425 --> 00:28:02,227
which was a center
of real Pro-Americanism.
519
00:28:02,328 --> 00:28:04,296
I mean, there were
Sunday ballgames,
520
00:28:04,397 --> 00:28:07,265
and picnics,
and Cub Scouts,
521
00:28:07,367 --> 00:28:10,536
and Girl Scouts.
522
00:28:12,005 --> 00:28:16,910
It's strange to think
that the threat
523
00:28:17,011 --> 00:28:21,916
from North Vietnam
wasn't easily seen.
524
00:28:26,388 --> 00:28:29,224
Your dad came in
to take over the station
525
00:28:29,326 --> 00:28:31,527
from a guy who wasn't
suited for dealing with
526
00:28:31,628 --> 00:28:33,796
the Vietnamese at all.
527
00:28:33,898 --> 00:28:37,200
The Vietnamese were completely
disorganized and disheartened
528
00:28:37,301 --> 00:28:41,272
because the Geneva Accords
and the cease fire agreement
529
00:28:41,373 --> 00:28:44,208
had been signed without
their participation.
530
00:28:44,309 --> 00:28:46,310
They had no say in it
whatsoever, and all
531
00:28:46,411 --> 00:28:47,278
of a sudden,
their country
532
00:28:47,380 --> 00:28:50,984
was being divided
in half.
533
00:28:51,084 --> 00:28:54,587
The Communists took over
in the north.
534
00:28:54,688 --> 00:29:00,594
You had the refugees
coming out of the north,
535
00:29:00,694 --> 00:29:04,865
you had the Vietnamese army
deserting in the north.
536
00:29:04,966 --> 00:29:08,670
Some of them
were coming south.
537
00:29:08,771 --> 00:29:11,439
The French were
terribly bitter
538
00:29:11,541 --> 00:29:13,275
and downhearted.
539
00:29:13,376 --> 00:29:15,644
They were
losing Vietnam.
540
00:29:18,615 --> 00:29:21,317
When the Diem government
was established,
541
00:29:21,418 --> 00:29:24,754
you didn't have much
of a civil service,
542
00:29:24,856 --> 00:29:26,657
and you certainly
had very little
543
00:29:26,758 --> 00:29:30,895
administrative capability
out in the provinces.
544
00:29:30,996 --> 00:29:35,334
This left a security vacuum
in the countryside.
545
00:29:35,434 --> 00:29:36,801
And the Viet Minh
Communists
546
00:29:36,903 --> 00:29:42,008
started to come in
and fill it.
547
00:29:42,108 --> 00:29:44,076
The Kennedy Administration
comes in.
548
00:29:44,178 --> 00:29:46,913
They've got a huge problem
in Vietnam.
549
00:29:47,014 --> 00:29:49,015
And that was the
beginning of the effort
550
00:29:49,116 --> 00:29:52,118
to help the Diem government
resist the insurgency
551
00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:55,958
and the beginning of
counter-insurgency.
552
00:29:56,058 --> 00:29:58,359
The Kennedy Administration
came in with very high hopes
553
00:29:58,461 --> 00:30:00,529
and a rather golden
environment,
554
00:30:00,630 --> 00:30:03,832
both of public support,
and of self-esteem.
555
00:30:03,934 --> 00:30:05,768
Certainly the President
and his brother,
556
00:30:05,869 --> 00:30:11,675
uh, were many-sided,
uh, individuals,
557
00:30:11,776 --> 00:30:14,778
but they had an interest
in covert activity,
558
00:30:14,879 --> 00:30:19,451
uh, they had an interest in,
uh, James Bond-type activity.
559
00:30:19,552 --> 00:30:21,152
They saw it as
a third way,
560
00:30:21,253 --> 00:30:23,121
this side of military
involvement,
561
00:30:23,222 --> 00:30:25,090
and this side
of diplomatic
562
00:30:25,192 --> 00:30:26,926
exclusiveness.
563
00:30:27,027 --> 00:30:28,327
They romanticized
a great deal about
564
00:30:28,428 --> 00:30:31,564
doing things secretly
that couldn't be done openly,
565
00:30:31,666 --> 00:30:33,767
including some very strenuous
covert activity,
566
00:30:33,868 --> 00:30:36,670
but also, uh, that,
uh, that they were
567
00:30:36,771 --> 00:30:39,740
personally interested
in it.
568
00:30:39,842 --> 00:30:42,744
One of the first things
that Bill Colby had to do
569
00:30:42,845 --> 00:30:46,548
was to orchestrate
and oversee
570
00:30:46,650 --> 00:30:48,617
a mission called
'Project Tiger'
571
00:30:48,718 --> 00:30:52,021
in which some
250 pilots,
572
00:30:52,123 --> 00:30:58,629
South Vietnamese pilots
and paratroopers participated,
573
00:30:58,730 --> 00:31:03,335
to drop spies
behind the lines
574
00:31:03,435 --> 00:31:07,506
in North Vietnam.
575
00:31:07,607 --> 00:31:10,642
The C.I.A. Believed
they could operate
576
00:31:10,743 --> 00:31:13,845
behind enemy lines
in the same way
577
00:31:13,947 --> 00:31:18,318
that the O.S.S.
Did in World War Two.
578
00:31:18,419 --> 00:31:20,853
Of roughly 250
of these missions,
579
00:31:20,955 --> 00:31:25,360
217 men were
killed, captured,
580
00:31:25,460 --> 00:31:27,561
or turned into
double agents.
581
00:31:34,137 --> 00:31:36,105
I was part
of the first group
582
00:31:36,206 --> 00:31:40,877
to be trained in
counter-insurgency.
583
00:31:40,978 --> 00:31:42,579
When we graduated
from the training,
584
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,414
we all got taken
to the White House,
585
00:31:44,515 --> 00:31:46,450
and we shook
JFK's hand.
586
00:31:46,551 --> 00:31:49,519
He was very impressive.
587
00:31:49,621 --> 00:31:52,390
Walt Rostow was around,
and he coined the phrase
588
00:31:52,491 --> 00:31:54,192
'infrastructure'
and we have to build
589
00:31:54,294 --> 00:31:58,264
up the infrastructure
in South Vietnam, and,
590
00:31:58,364 --> 00:32:00,165
so we all sort
of saw it as a,
591
00:32:00,266 --> 00:32:02,101
as a new crusade.
592
00:32:02,203 --> 00:32:06,273
We had to defend South Vietnam
against the North Vietnamese.
593
00:32:06,373 --> 00:32:08,975
Otherwise, the entire region
was going to fall
594
00:32:09,077 --> 00:32:12,213
to the Soviets
and the Chinese.
595
00:32:12,314 --> 00:32:16,585
We were convinced that,
uh, really the hope
596
00:32:16,686 --> 00:32:21,624
of southeast Asia was,
was Ngo Dinh Diem.
597
00:32:21,725 --> 00:32:26,029
We were sent to support
the Diem government.
598
00:32:26,130 --> 00:32:28,397
We went up to Dalat,
to the lovely
599
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:33,171
mountain station where
they had a house.
600
00:32:33,271 --> 00:32:37,475
We got to know
that family quite well.
601
00:32:37,576 --> 00:32:41,180
Your father was assigned
to be in conversations
602
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,251
with President Diem's brother,
Ngo Dinh Nhu,
603
00:32:45,352 --> 00:32:49,856
with whom he became
really quite close.
604
00:32:49,957 --> 00:32:55,730
I met Madame Nhu, who was
a very dynamic person.
605
00:32:55,830 --> 00:32:59,232
We had a very
pleasant time.
606
00:32:59,334 --> 00:33:03,972
The President himself
was a bachelor,
607
00:33:04,073 --> 00:33:08,511
an old rather Mandarin type
in his way of speaking
608
00:33:08,611 --> 00:33:11,246
and dressing.
609
00:33:11,348 --> 00:33:16,353
Not aloof but rather
detached really.
610
00:33:16,453 --> 00:33:20,925
I... I wonder if he really
sensed the difficulties
611
00:33:21,026 --> 00:33:23,460
that his country faced.
612
00:33:23,562 --> 00:33:24,829
After all, this was
the government
613
00:33:24,931 --> 00:33:28,868
of South Vietnam.
614
00:33:28,968 --> 00:33:33,606
Nhu had a concept
of himself in which
615
00:33:33,707 --> 00:33:36,742
he was the reigning
intellectual.
616
00:33:36,844 --> 00:33:39,979
Your father taught him
a lot about insurgency,
617
00:33:40,081 --> 00:33:42,883
and gave him a lot
of books to read,
618
00:33:42,984 --> 00:33:44,751
uh, which was good.
619
00:33:44,854 --> 00:33:46,855
The bad part of it
was that he then
620
00:33:46,956 --> 00:33:50,793
thought himself to be
the unique expert
621
00:33:50,893 --> 00:33:53,995
on counter-insurgency
in Vietnam.
622
00:34:00,571 --> 00:34:02,439
We are building
strategic hamlets
623
00:34:02,540 --> 00:34:05,275
to bring peace
throughout the country.
624
00:34:05,377 --> 00:34:09,615
The Strategic Hamlet Program
was essentially an idea
625
00:34:09,715 --> 00:34:13,518
of arming villagers
to defend themselves.
626
00:34:13,620 --> 00:34:15,988
Nhu considered himself
the father
627
00:34:16,089 --> 00:34:18,624
of the Strategic
Hamlet Program.
628
00:34:18,725 --> 00:34:21,293
But in the initial
phases of the program,
629
00:34:21,395 --> 00:34:24,163
villagers weren't paid
for relocation.
630
00:34:24,265 --> 00:34:26,532
They were forcibly
relocated,
631
00:34:26,635 --> 00:34:30,171
and a lot of them were
very unhappy with this.
632
00:34:30,272 --> 00:34:31,805
The principle
is a good one.
633
00:34:31,907 --> 00:34:34,108
Protect the people in
their own little hamlets
634
00:34:34,210 --> 00:34:35,277
where they defend
themselves
635
00:34:35,378 --> 00:34:36,945
and be defended
against encroachments
636
00:34:37,046 --> 00:34:38,847
from the outside.
637
00:34:38,948 --> 00:34:40,582
The problem was
North Vietnamese,
638
00:34:40,684 --> 00:34:42,018
at some point...
because remember,
639
00:34:42,119 --> 00:34:44,120
they're building up...
are going to overrun those.
640
00:34:46,189 --> 00:34:47,356
There was a real sense
that we needed
641
00:34:47,458 --> 00:34:50,827
a unconventional approach
to stem an increased
642
00:34:50,929 --> 00:34:53,363
flow of support
from North Vietnam
643
00:34:53,465 --> 00:34:55,199
to the south.
644
00:34:55,301 --> 00:34:59,672
The decision in 1961
is to not introduce
645
00:34:59,772 --> 00:35:02,507
U.S. Combat forces
into South Vietnam
646
00:35:02,609 --> 00:35:05,444
but to dramatically increase
the advisory effort
647
00:35:05,545 --> 00:35:08,314
to the South Vietnamese
armed forces.
648
00:35:08,416 --> 00:35:13,988
So between 1961 and 1963,
the advisory effort
649
00:35:14,088 --> 00:35:19,493
grows from 800
to over 16,500.
650
00:35:19,594 --> 00:35:20,995
Kennedy always had
a soft spot
651
00:35:21,097 --> 00:35:22,731
for the cavalier side
of the military.
652
00:35:22,832 --> 00:35:24,766
After all, he's
a P.T. Boat captain.
653
00:35:24,867 --> 00:35:29,739
Uh, small unit, dashing,
individual officers,
654
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,308
they could live inside
enemy territory,
655
00:35:32,409 --> 00:35:34,544
could live with
the natives.
656
00:35:34,645 --> 00:35:37,647
They could fight
in the jungle.
657
00:35:37,749 --> 00:35:40,884
Lawrence of Arabia
was a model.
658
00:35:43,522 --> 00:35:46,658
They were imaginative,
free-willing.
659
00:35:46,759 --> 00:35:48,793
To the Kennedys,
they were the answer.
660
00:35:48,895 --> 00:35:51,998
And the Kennedys foster
this whole program
661
00:35:52,099 --> 00:35:54,834
of Special Forces.
662
00:35:56,004 --> 00:35:59,640
In Saigon, we lived
near the palace,
663
00:35:59,741 --> 00:36:01,708
and I started to see
my father with,
664
00:36:01,809 --> 00:36:05,680
uh, generals,
military people,
665
00:36:05,781 --> 00:36:10,519
with police, the military
and the police.
666
00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:16,326
And at night, I remember
early evening you hear
667
00:36:16,427 --> 00:36:23,067
this rumble, this distant
rumble, and I said
668
00:36:23,167 --> 00:36:25,035
to my dad,
"What is that?
669
00:36:25,137 --> 00:36:26,270
Is it thunder?"
670
00:36:26,371 --> 00:36:30,509
And he said, "No.
They're shelling,
671
00:36:30,610 --> 00:36:34,046
30 miles outside
of town."
672
00:36:34,147 --> 00:36:38,851
Hmm, 30 miles.
673
00:36:38,952 --> 00:36:39,986
And I remember
my father saying
674
00:36:40,087 --> 00:36:41,888
all this is
going to change.
675
00:36:41,989 --> 00:36:42,889
A war is coming.
676
00:36:45,427 --> 00:36:51,466
He said it in a very
sort of caring way,
677
00:36:51,567 --> 00:36:54,135
like he had
a stake in it.
678
00:36:59,376 --> 00:37:02,979
We left, as you know,
in 1962, just as
679
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,082
the military buildup
was starting.
680
00:37:06,184 --> 00:37:08,051
Your father received
a promotion to be
681
00:37:08,152 --> 00:37:12,323
head of all the C.I.A.
Operations in the Far East.
682
00:37:12,424 --> 00:37:15,961
We returned to Washington,
and President Diem asked us
683
00:37:16,061 --> 00:37:20,432
to come and have
a visit before we left.
684
00:37:20,533 --> 00:37:23,368
This was when we were
getting ready to depart.
685
00:37:23,470 --> 00:37:26,805
And we did, we visited
at the palace.
686
00:37:26,907 --> 00:37:30,778
We sat there with
the President.
687
00:37:30,878 --> 00:37:35,082
It was a memorable time.
688
00:37:35,183 --> 00:37:38,185
There was really not much
political talk.
689
00:37:38,286 --> 00:37:41,522
But yet, there was
a feeling that things
690
00:37:41,624 --> 00:37:45,328
were not going well
in that country.
691
00:37:45,428 --> 00:37:49,198
But the idea that we were
visiting with the President
692
00:37:49,299 --> 00:37:52,903
and having his gratitude
for what Americans
693
00:37:53,004 --> 00:37:57,008
were doing is a memory
that I won't forget.
694
00:38:04,216 --> 00:38:06,417
Here we had created
a government.
695
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:08,653
That government lived
in the person
696
00:38:08,755 --> 00:38:10,823
of President Diem.
697
00:38:10,924 --> 00:38:13,692
We had helped
install him in 1954,
698
00:38:13,794 --> 00:38:16,129
we had tried to create
a political culture
699
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:17,664
around him.
700
00:38:17,765 --> 00:38:21,201
It had the appearance
of democracy.
701
00:38:21,303 --> 00:38:26,275
Diem was a Catholic
in a Buddhist country.
702
00:38:26,375 --> 00:38:30,579
He was more French than
he'd probably admit.
703
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,450
The civil war in Vietnam,
and that's what it was,
704
00:38:34,552 --> 00:38:37,387
was a political war,
and Diem was not
705
00:38:37,488 --> 00:38:39,656
a great politician.
706
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,761
Tanks manned by troops
of the Special Forces
707
00:38:43,862 --> 00:38:46,030
ring Buddhist temples
in Vietnam
708
00:38:46,131 --> 00:38:48,933
as the crisis in that
embattled southeast Asian nation
709
00:38:49,035 --> 00:38:50,235
mounts
to a climax.
710
00:38:50,336 --> 00:38:52,837
These troops are under
the command of Ngo Dinh Nhu,
711
00:38:52,939 --> 00:38:54,239
the President's brother.
712
00:38:54,340 --> 00:38:56,675
The Buddhists, demanding
more religious freedom,
713
00:38:56,777 --> 00:38:57,743
find themselves
the objects
714
00:38:57,844 --> 00:38:59,478
of a terror campaign
that has had
715
00:38:59,580 --> 00:39:01,681
international
repercussions.
716
00:39:05,053 --> 00:39:10,625
Diem's military violently
suppressed the Buddhists;
717
00:39:10,726 --> 00:39:15,698
murdered a political
group of them.
718
00:39:15,798 --> 00:39:21,270
A Buddhist monk in protest
set himself on fire.
719
00:39:21,371 --> 00:39:24,273
This image went
around the world.
720
00:39:24,375 --> 00:39:25,775
It was seared into
the minds
721
00:39:25,876 --> 00:39:29,279
of every American.
722
00:39:29,380 --> 00:39:32,148
I was with your father,
and he was really shocked
723
00:39:32,251 --> 00:39:33,551
by that.
724
00:39:33,652 --> 00:39:36,254
He had felt that things
were moving
725
00:39:36,355 --> 00:39:38,522
a little bit better,
but here was just
726
00:39:38,625 --> 00:39:41,193
a tremendous protest
erupting against
727
00:39:41,294 --> 00:39:44,296
the rule
of Ngo Dinh Diem.
728
00:39:44,398 --> 00:39:50,304
What have the Buddhist
leaders done comparatively?
729
00:39:50,404 --> 00:39:52,005
The only thing
they have done,
730
00:39:52,107 --> 00:39:57,679
they have barbecued
one of their monks
731
00:39:57,780 --> 00:40:00,949
whom they have intoxicated,
whom they have
732
00:40:01,050 --> 00:40:03,451
abused the confidence.
733
00:40:03,552 --> 00:40:07,790
Uh, even that barbecuing
was done, um,
734
00:40:07,891 --> 00:40:09,925
not even with
self-sufficient means
735
00:40:10,027 --> 00:40:12,762
because they,
they used imported,
736
00:40:12,864 --> 00:40:15,198
uh, gasoline.
737
00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:20,305
The regime was beginning
to disintegrate.
738
00:40:20,406 --> 00:40:22,840
The circle of people
that Diem would listen to
739
00:40:22,941 --> 00:40:26,144
got narrower
and narrower.
740
00:40:26,246 --> 00:40:29,749
Nhu gradually became
the single most
741
00:40:29,849 --> 00:40:33,252
influential advisor
to Diem,
742
00:40:33,354 --> 00:40:35,722
and all of the, or,
most of the intelligence
743
00:40:35,823 --> 00:40:38,858
that Diem was getting
was funneled through Nhu.
744
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,296
Something had to be done
about the fact
745
00:40:42,397 --> 00:40:45,901
that Nhu was taking
over the regime,
746
00:40:46,002 --> 00:40:49,171
and Nhu was
going bonkers.
747
00:40:49,272 --> 00:40:51,273
Buddhist monks and nuns
are joined by thousands
748
00:40:51,374 --> 00:40:53,475
of sympathizers
in Saigon to protest
749
00:40:53,577 --> 00:40:55,311
the government's restrictions
on the practice
750
00:40:55,412 --> 00:40:57,613
of their religion
in South Vietnam.
751
00:40:57,715 --> 00:41:02,853
By 1963, the weakness
of the Diem government
752
00:41:02,954 --> 00:41:05,456
was becoming painfully
apparent to members
753
00:41:05,557 --> 00:41:07,758
of the Kennedy
Administration.
754
00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:12,164
But the story took
a turn for the worse,
755
00:41:12,264 --> 00:41:14,733
dramatically worse,
after a new
756
00:41:14,835 --> 00:41:19,005
American Ambassador
showed up in Saigon.
757
00:41:19,106 --> 00:41:23,944
Henry Cabot Lodge comes
out to Saigon as Ambassador.
758
00:41:24,045 --> 00:41:27,782
He thought of himself
as kind of a pro-consul.
759
00:41:27,883 --> 00:41:30,451
He thought of the Vietnamese
as kind of strange
760
00:41:30,552 --> 00:41:35,090
little people, subject
to all these superstitions.
761
00:41:35,191 --> 00:41:38,627
He didn't pretend
to need to understand them.
762
00:41:38,728 --> 00:41:42,298
It was a very, very
simplistic mindset.
763
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,501
Lodge decided that
he alone was going
764
00:41:44,602 --> 00:41:48,139
to make the judgment
that Diem had to go.
765
00:41:51,076 --> 00:41:53,144
And he helped
ginned up a coup.
766
00:42:43,035 --> 00:42:46,237
Lodge's cable came in first,
and Lodge wanted it said
767
00:42:46,339 --> 00:42:49,475
that he'd been
approached indirectly
768
00:42:49,576 --> 00:42:51,910
by the generals, uh,
inquiring what
769
00:42:52,012 --> 00:42:55,483
the American role,
or attitude would be
770
00:42:55,583 --> 00:42:58,051
toward a move
by the generals,
771
00:42:58,153 --> 00:43:00,254
uh, if it came to...
if it came to that.
772
00:44:33,161 --> 00:44:35,929
The return said that
we were deeply worried
773
00:44:36,031 --> 00:44:40,603
about the disintegrating
situation in Saigon...
774
00:44:40,704 --> 00:44:43,172
the apparently disintegrating
situation in Saigon.
775
00:44:43,273 --> 00:44:47,577
Uh, we thought that
the Nhus were bad news,
776
00:44:47,678 --> 00:44:49,446
and that they
had to go.
777
00:44:49,547 --> 00:44:52,482
Both Madame Nhu
and brother Nhu,
778
00:44:52,583 --> 00:44:55,685
and that Lodge should
therefore go to Diem
779
00:44:55,787 --> 00:44:56,554
and tell him that he
had to separate
780
00:44:56,655 --> 00:44:59,223
himself from
his brother.
781
00:44:59,324 --> 00:45:02,159
If that proves impossible,
we may have to face
782
00:45:02,261 --> 00:45:05,397
the possibility that Diem
himself will have to go.
783
00:45:05,498 --> 00:45:06,999
That's the extent
of the American statement
784
00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:09,668
about Diem.
785
00:45:09,770 --> 00:45:12,839
Diem understood that Nhu
was a liability,
786
00:45:12,940 --> 00:45:16,009
but his, his kind of nature
was such that
787
00:45:16,111 --> 00:45:19,446
he would not be dictated
to by the Americans
788
00:45:19,547 --> 00:45:20,447
on this subject.
789
00:45:44,743 --> 00:45:49,348
Right before the coup occurs,
Diem has a meeting
790
00:45:49,448 --> 00:45:53,619
in the palace, uh,
with, uh, CINCPAC
791
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:55,254
who came out,
and then he pulls
792
00:45:55,355 --> 00:45:58,357
Lodge aside
and he says,
793
00:45:58,459 --> 00:46:00,593
"Please tell
President Kennedy
794
00:46:00,695 --> 00:46:03,763
that I will do
anything he wants,
795
00:46:03,865 --> 00:46:07,034
that we really need
to get over this."
796
00:46:07,135 --> 00:46:11,106
Well, that same afternoon,
the coup starts.
797
00:46:15,978 --> 00:46:18,714
We thought that
the President himself
798
00:46:18,816 --> 00:46:21,150
had ordered
up a coup.
799
00:46:21,251 --> 00:46:23,386
Who are we to
question the decision
800
00:46:23,487 --> 00:46:27,691
the President had made
at this point?
801
00:46:27,792 --> 00:46:29,993
It was only later that
we started to find out
802
00:46:30,095 --> 00:46:32,262
it really was
cranked up by Lodge
803
00:46:32,364 --> 00:46:37,136
and by a clique in
the State Department.
804
00:46:37,236 --> 00:46:38,937
Lodge had the bit
in his teeth,
805
00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:40,639
and he was running
this thing.
806
00:46:40,741 --> 00:46:42,374
The White House thought
they were running it,
807
00:46:42,476 --> 00:46:48,148
or they had any brakes
on him... they didn't.
808
00:46:48,249 --> 00:46:50,117
It was really
something.
809
00:46:53,756 --> 00:46:55,923
It was a
holy day,
810
00:46:56,024 --> 00:47:01,830
All Saints' Day,
November '63.
811
00:47:01,931 --> 00:47:05,502
I was at mass
that morning,
812
00:47:05,603 --> 00:47:07,403
and your father
came into the church,
813
00:47:07,505 --> 00:47:09,205
Little Flower,
in Bethesda,
814
00:47:09,306 --> 00:47:12,977
and said, "pray for
the Diem brothers.
815
00:47:13,078 --> 00:47:15,513
Pray for the souls
of the Diem brothers.
816
00:47:15,614 --> 00:47:17,615
They've been
found murdered."
817
00:47:17,716 --> 00:47:19,917
Which was
a shock.
818
00:47:20,019 --> 00:47:22,654
A terrible
shock.
819
00:47:22,755 --> 00:47:25,657
Bill stayed
for that mass
820
00:47:25,758 --> 00:47:30,163
and we prayed,
oh, fervently
821
00:47:30,264 --> 00:47:34,601
for President Diem
and his brother.
822
00:47:34,702 --> 00:47:38,840
What was so difficult
about it was that
823
00:47:38,940 --> 00:47:42,376
in hindsight, in
immediate hindsight,
824
00:47:42,478 --> 00:47:44,379
we have to...
825
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,514
we Americans
have to realize
826
00:47:46,615 --> 00:47:51,787
that we bore some
share in this tragedy.
827
00:47:51,888 --> 00:47:58,962
I'd... not personally,
but somehow,
828
00:47:59,063 --> 00:48:04,836
things went
wrong somehow.
829
00:48:04,937 --> 00:48:08,172
My mother believed in
what he was doing,
830
00:48:08,274 --> 00:48:12,712
but she wanted
it to be right.
831
00:48:12,812 --> 00:48:16,516
She saw his
missionary zealotry,
832
00:48:16,617 --> 00:48:19,752
this force of good
in the world.
833
00:48:19,854 --> 00:48:23,156
I think they competed
for the high ground,
834
00:48:23,258 --> 00:48:25,926
moral high ground.
835
00:48:26,027 --> 00:48:28,729
Who's doing
the good work?
836
00:48:28,831 --> 00:48:31,299
Fighting the
good fight?
837
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:32,300
He doing his job,
838
00:48:32,401 --> 00:48:35,003
and she,
the loyal wife,
839
00:48:35,104 --> 00:48:39,242
religious
and Catholic.
840
00:48:39,343 --> 00:48:42,778
My mother believed
in what he was doing,
841
00:48:42,881 --> 00:48:45,649
but it had
to be moral,
842
00:48:45,750 --> 00:48:50,488
and it had
to be right.
843
00:48:50,518 --> 00:48:51,019
This was an
extraordinary moment
844
00:48:51,452 --> 00:48:53,986
of presidential
carelessness,
845
00:48:54,087 --> 00:48:56,456
and the result
was a President,
846
00:48:56,557 --> 00:48:57,957
and his brother,
847
00:48:58,058 --> 00:49:00,560
with their hands tied
behind their back,
848
00:49:00,661 --> 00:49:03,296
and bullets
in their head.
849
00:49:03,397 --> 00:49:06,232
And a shattered
illusion, which is
850
00:49:06,333 --> 00:49:12,271
that we were building
a democracy in Vietnam.
851
00:49:12,372 --> 00:49:14,340
It was only
three weeks later
852
00:49:14,441 --> 00:49:17,043
that John Kennedy
was killed.
853
00:49:17,144 --> 00:49:19,846
Lyndon Johnson said
when he found out
854
00:49:19,947 --> 00:49:21,981
what the role of the
United States was,
855
00:49:22,082 --> 00:49:26,385
"We just got a bunch
of thugs and killed them."
856
00:49:26,487 --> 00:49:27,587
The U.S.
Responsibility
857
00:49:27,688 --> 00:49:30,490
for Diem's death
was absolutely clear,
858
00:49:30,591 --> 00:49:34,360
and once that was
done, it became,
859
00:49:34,461 --> 00:49:36,329
not the South
Vietnamese war
860
00:49:36,429 --> 00:49:37,829
against the
North Vietnamese,
861
00:49:37,930 --> 00:49:39,064
it was our war.
862
00:49:39,165 --> 00:49:40,866
The albatross was
around our neck,
863
00:49:40,967 --> 00:49:44,202
and it was ours
from then on.
864
00:50:04,023 --> 00:50:04,723
The Americans,
865
00:50:04,824 --> 00:50:06,525
when they go
into a country,
866
00:50:06,626 --> 00:50:07,526
are trying to do
something rather
867
00:50:07,627 --> 00:50:11,463
different from European
colonialists.
868
00:50:11,564 --> 00:50:14,199
They're not going in
there to seize assets
869
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:17,335
or to strip value
out of a country.
870
00:50:17,436 --> 00:50:18,837
Americans do
genuinely feel
871
00:50:18,938 --> 00:50:20,405
that when they
gird themselves up
872
00:50:20,506 --> 00:50:21,940
and go around
the world,
873
00:50:22,041 --> 00:50:25,143
that they're on a...
a mission of... of
874
00:50:25,244 --> 00:50:27,379
bringing, um,
bringing providence,
875
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,481
um, to bear.
876
00:50:29,582 --> 00:50:30,649
They're going
in there for
877
00:50:30,750 --> 00:50:33,184
what they perceive
as the good
878
00:50:33,286 --> 00:50:36,121
of the people they're
trying to help.
879
00:50:36,222 --> 00:50:37,289
They therefore
feel that
880
00:50:37,390 --> 00:50:39,257
the local people
will think that
881
00:50:39,358 --> 00:50:40,625
this is a gift that
they're bringing,
882
00:50:40,726 --> 00:50:42,160
and why on earth
would local people
883
00:50:42,261 --> 00:50:46,064
look a gift horse
in the mouth?
884
00:50:46,165 --> 00:50:48,934
Local cultures
count.
885
00:50:49,035 --> 00:50:51,069
Bombs, and that
sort of thing,
886
00:50:51,170 --> 00:50:56,675
are powerless against
local cultures.
887
00:50:56,776 --> 00:50:58,209
The early
experiments
888
00:50:58,311 --> 00:51:00,211
of civilian irregular
defense groups
889
00:51:00,313 --> 00:51:02,113
to provide security
to the villages
890
00:51:02,214 --> 00:51:04,215
started by
William Colby
891
00:51:04,317 --> 00:51:06,351
in conjunction with
U.S. Special Forces,
892
00:51:06,452 --> 00:51:08,353
showed great
promise.
893
00:51:08,454 --> 00:51:10,722
But the American Army
was disappointed
894
00:51:10,822 --> 00:51:12,523
that Special Forces
were not being used
895
00:51:12,624 --> 00:51:14,258
in an offensive
role.
896
00:51:14,359 --> 00:51:15,960
They were providing
security to
897
00:51:16,061 --> 00:51:17,761
the population,
not going out
898
00:51:17,862 --> 00:51:19,997
finding, fixing,
and finishing the enemy.
899
00:51:20,098 --> 00:51:21,532
And, and so we
stepped away
900
00:51:21,633 --> 00:51:23,734
from that very
promising experiment,
901
00:51:23,835 --> 00:51:27,071
and we moved to a very
conventional war.
902
00:51:31,509 --> 00:51:33,243
Here's the headline
news, good morning.
903
00:51:33,345 --> 00:51:34,445
President Johnson
held a news conference
904
00:51:34,546 --> 00:51:35,346
last night,
905
00:51:35,447 --> 00:51:36,413
said, among
other things,
906
00:51:36,514 --> 00:51:37,548
that if more
American troops
907
00:51:37,649 --> 00:51:41,952
are needed in Vietnam,
they'll be there.
908
00:51:42,053 --> 00:51:43,654
We overwhelmed
the country
909
00:51:43,755 --> 00:51:46,724
with that
large a force.
910
00:51:46,825 --> 00:51:48,359
Imagine, what
would it be like?
911
00:51:48,460 --> 00:51:49,927
I'm sitting in
Lincoln, Nebraska,
912
00:51:50,028 --> 00:51:51,562
and all of a sudden
comes in these people,
913
00:51:51,663 --> 00:51:53,197
I don't even know
who the hell they are.
914
00:51:53,298 --> 00:51:55,532
They're taller
than I am, uh...
915
00:51:55,634 --> 00:51:57,134
they're noisier
than I am,
916
00:51:57,235 --> 00:51:58,769
they got a diff...
a much different culture,
917
00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:59,937
much different
religion.
918
00:52:00,038 --> 00:52:01,171
I mean,
the, the...
919
00:52:01,272 --> 00:52:05,009
the religious
differences are huge.
920
00:52:05,110 --> 00:52:07,811
You're violating
cultural taboos
921
00:52:07,912 --> 00:52:11,382
almost every step
of the way.
922
00:52:11,483 --> 00:52:13,951
It's shockingly
disruptive
923
00:52:14,052 --> 00:52:15,419
and offensive.
924
00:52:17,689 --> 00:52:19,023
And the paradox
of that is
925
00:52:19,124 --> 00:52:21,792
we then provide the
political ammunition
926
00:52:21,893 --> 00:52:23,994
that the opposition
needed,
927
00:52:24,095 --> 00:52:25,429
provided them many
opportunities
928
00:52:25,530 --> 00:52:26,630
for saying,
"See, this is why
929
00:52:26,731 --> 00:52:30,234
you want to get
the Americans out."
930
00:52:30,335 --> 00:52:31,502
Your father
was quite upset
931
00:52:31,603 --> 00:52:32,903
by the disruption
that occurred,
932
00:52:33,004 --> 00:52:35,072
and the... and the
difficulty that, that,
933
00:52:35,173 --> 00:52:37,441
that attached to the
effort as a consequence.
934
00:52:37,542 --> 00:52:39,543
He certainly was
not one who was
935
00:52:39,644 --> 00:52:40,444
in favor of
turning the thing
936
00:52:40,545 --> 00:52:42,780
over to the
military.
937
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,348
Never had been.
938
00:52:45,449 --> 00:52:48,451
But when the
decision was made,
939
00:52:48,552 --> 00:52:50,920
he went along
a hundred percent.
940
00:52:57,661 --> 00:53:00,229
The Vietnam
that I knew
941
00:53:00,330 --> 00:53:04,934
was being
destroyed.
942
00:53:05,035 --> 00:53:09,372
This perfumed,
gorgeous,
943
00:53:09,473 --> 00:53:16,279
liquid country was
being torn apart.
944
00:53:20,150 --> 00:53:22,452
It was going
to be gone.
945
00:53:28,826 --> 00:53:31,260
He told me
quite a lot
946
00:53:31,361 --> 00:53:33,863
what he
was doing.
947
00:53:33,964 --> 00:53:37,033
"Organizing
these villagers,
948
00:53:37,134 --> 00:53:39,669
self-defense
teams."
949
00:53:39,770 --> 00:53:42,572
It all made
a lot of sense.
950
00:53:42,673 --> 00:53:44,540
But he would
leave the room,
951
00:53:44,641 --> 00:53:46,175
why I'd look over
to the television,
952
00:53:46,276 --> 00:53:49,045
and choppers
are coming in,
953
00:53:49,146 --> 00:53:51,981
and B-52s,
napalm,
954
00:53:52,082 --> 00:53:55,518
and guys firing
into the jungle.
955
00:54:04,128 --> 00:54:05,962
Towns and fishing
villages that
956
00:54:06,063 --> 00:54:09,766
I'd been to
would pop up.
957
00:54:09,867 --> 00:54:12,835
It was, like,
out of a movie.
958
00:54:12,936 --> 00:54:15,805
Like, "God, look what
happened to Nga Trang.
959
00:54:15,905 --> 00:54:18,373
I don't remember
an airfield there.
960
00:54:18,474 --> 00:54:23,912
Where are all
those bases?"
961
00:54:24,013 --> 00:54:27,682
It was like that
that was a different war.
962
00:54:27,784 --> 00:54:28,884
It wasn't the war
963
00:54:28,985 --> 00:54:32,487
that my father
was fighting.
964
00:54:32,588 --> 00:54:33,455
He was fighting
a completely
965
00:54:33,556 --> 00:54:35,323
different war.
966
00:54:39,495 --> 00:54:40,662
A problem
that you have
967
00:54:40,763 --> 00:54:43,765
is that you are in,
in the habit
968
00:54:43,866 --> 00:54:46,802
of fighting
the last war.
969
00:54:46,903 --> 00:54:48,837
World War One
and World War Two
970
00:54:48,938 --> 00:54:50,972
were set piece
battles.
971
00:54:51,073 --> 00:54:53,408
So we crashed around
in the jungle
972
00:54:53,509 --> 00:54:54,976
looking for
the V.C.
973
00:54:55,077 --> 00:54:57,112
Or the North
Vietnamese forces,
974
00:54:57,213 --> 00:55:00,515
while they engaged
in insurgency.
975
00:55:03,786 --> 00:55:06,021
Reality intrudes.
976
00:55:06,122 --> 00:55:08,790
Sooner or later,
one must recognize
977
00:55:08,891 --> 00:55:11,026
the people who
understand
978
00:55:11,127 --> 00:55:13,328
the heart of
an insurgency
979
00:55:13,429 --> 00:55:15,130
are the people
who are dedicated,
980
00:55:15,231 --> 00:55:19,634
most dedicated
to its defeat.
981
00:55:19,735 --> 00:55:22,470
Well, you will
well remember,
982
00:55:22,572 --> 00:55:25,040
uh, going to the
airport, to um,
983
00:55:25,141 --> 00:55:27,275
when your dad
went off to, uh,
984
00:55:27,376 --> 00:55:33,148
to Saigon
in, uh, '68.
985
00:55:34,684 --> 00:55:36,718
At that time, it was
more and more troops,
986
00:55:36,819 --> 00:55:38,920
more and
more troops.
987
00:55:39,021 --> 00:55:41,223
His idea was to
use the troops
988
00:55:41,324 --> 00:55:44,793
in a different way.
989
00:55:44,894 --> 00:55:49,497
He kept pushing
for his methods.
990
00:55:49,598 --> 00:55:50,264
What did we say?
991
00:55:50,365 --> 00:55:53,167
"Guerilla war?"
992
00:55:53,268 --> 00:55:58,305
He somehow couldn't
give up on it.
993
00:55:58,406 --> 00:56:00,241
It was a lengthy
assignment.
994
00:56:00,342 --> 00:56:02,543
He came back
periodically.
995
00:56:02,644 --> 00:56:04,211
We'd go
to Vermont,
996
00:56:04,312 --> 00:56:05,846
uh, try to
carry on life
997
00:56:05,947 --> 00:56:08,082
as we'd
known it,
998
00:56:08,183 --> 00:56:10,584
and it was, uh,
he was doing...
999
00:56:10,685 --> 00:56:12,219
he was called
to serve,
1000
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,188
and he did it.
1001
00:56:14,289 --> 00:56:20,094
He did it
capably.
1002
00:56:20,195 --> 00:56:23,130
When it comes to
long separations,
1003
00:56:23,231 --> 00:56:26,767
my mother was
at loose ends.
1004
00:56:26,868 --> 00:56:31,305
She lost the center
out of her life.
1005
00:56:31,406 --> 00:56:35,209
It was very
hard for her.
1006
00:56:35,310 --> 00:56:37,411
A year or so into
his being there,
1007
00:56:37,512 --> 00:56:41,482
my sister Catherine
became ill.
1008
00:56:41,583 --> 00:56:45,286
She'd had epilepsy
since she was a child.
1009
00:56:45,387 --> 00:56:48,989
Terrible seizures.
1010
00:56:49,090 --> 00:56:53,694
She developed
anorexia nervosa.
1011
00:56:53,795 --> 00:56:57,331
It was awful.
1012
00:56:57,432 --> 00:56:58,532
My mother
took on
1013
00:56:58,633 --> 00:57:01,101
the suffering
of my sister.
1014
00:57:01,202 --> 00:57:03,137
She would make
it go away
1015
00:57:03,238 --> 00:57:06,006
for my father.
1016
00:57:06,107 --> 00:57:09,176
It couldn't be
any other way,
1017
00:57:09,277 --> 00:57:13,614
everything for
the mission.
1018
00:57:13,715 --> 00:57:15,215
And I remember
I looked over
1019
00:57:15,317 --> 00:57:17,484
at her
one evening.
1020
00:57:17,584 --> 00:57:18,518
She was writing
him a letter
1021
00:57:18,619 --> 00:57:21,821
I think,
in Vietnam.
1022
00:57:21,922 --> 00:57:23,823
I saw that she
was a woman,
1023
00:57:23,924 --> 00:57:25,525
not just
my mother.
1024
00:57:25,626 --> 00:57:28,461
She was
Ionely.
1025
00:57:28,562 --> 00:57:31,130
She hadn't signed
up for this,
1026
00:57:31,231 --> 00:57:33,099
but she
did it.
1027
00:57:36,270 --> 00:57:39,339
A warrior,
what my dad was.
1028
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,041
He liked being
in the fight.
1029
00:57:42,142 --> 00:57:42,842
I thought he
was the most
1030
00:57:42,943 --> 00:57:45,178
capable guy
they could have.
1031
00:57:45,279 --> 00:57:46,145
If anybody's going
to do that job,
1032
00:57:46,246 --> 00:57:47,947
he ought
to do it.
1033
00:57:48,048 --> 00:57:49,515
He could do it.
1034
00:57:49,616 --> 00:57:52,051
And he wasn't going
to complain about it.
1035
00:57:52,152 --> 00:57:52,885
Matter of fact,
he wanted
1036
00:57:52,987 --> 00:57:56,689
to do that job.
1037
00:57:56,790 --> 00:57:59,258
Ignatius had a vision
of his people
1038
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:00,560
going anywhere
in the world
1039
00:58:00,661 --> 00:58:01,961
for the good
of souls,
1040
00:58:02,062 --> 00:58:04,063
as he put it.
1041
00:58:04,164 --> 00:58:05,765
In Jesuit culture,
1042
00:58:05,866 --> 00:58:11,004
there's a lot of
respect for autonomy.
1043
00:58:11,105 --> 00:58:13,139
The autonomy
of the person,
1044
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:14,907
and for the way
in which God works
1045
00:58:15,009 --> 00:58:19,712
on the person,
uh, individually.
1046
00:58:19,813 --> 00:58:22,782
One can influence
people, and persuade
1047
00:58:22,883 --> 00:58:24,717
them in certain
directions,
1048
00:58:24,818 --> 00:58:26,252
not by what
one says,
1049
00:58:26,353 --> 00:58:28,755
but just to
observe what
1050
00:58:28,856 --> 00:58:29,956
Ignatius calls
"The movement
1051
00:58:30,057 --> 00:58:32,792
of the spirits"
in the person.
1052
00:58:32,893 --> 00:58:35,228
Letting them
do the talking,
1053
00:58:35,329 --> 00:58:37,930
asking the
occasional question,
1054
00:58:38,032 --> 00:58:39,732
and integrating what
they're saying
1055
00:58:39,833 --> 00:58:43,336
into the overall story
of their lives.
1056
00:58:43,437 --> 00:58:46,039
One does not need
to have a heavy hand
1057
00:58:46,140 --> 00:58:48,207
telling people
what to do.
1058
00:58:48,308 --> 00:58:50,376
It would be a
presumptuous director
1059
00:58:50,476 --> 00:58:54,012
or priest who
would simply say,
1060
00:58:54,113 --> 00:58:57,249
"God tells me what
you ought to do."
1061
00:58:57,350 --> 00:59:01,653
Um, and uh, I think
most Jesuits are,
1062
00:59:01,754 --> 00:59:05,123
are happy to stay
away from that.
1063
00:59:05,224 --> 00:59:06,291
When you encounter
an area that's
1064
00:59:06,392 --> 00:59:07,926
been taken over
by the enemy,
1065
00:59:08,027 --> 00:59:08,960
you can tell
right away,
1066
00:59:09,062 --> 00:59:12,064
I mean, the fear
is palpable.
1067
00:59:12,165 --> 00:59:14,966
These are
traumatized people.
1068
00:59:15,068 --> 00:59:16,802
The first thing
to do is to conduct
1069
00:59:16,903 --> 00:59:18,203
effective
reconnaissance,
1070
00:59:18,304 --> 00:59:20,372
and intelligence
collection.
1071
00:59:20,473 --> 00:59:22,641
And so, you
have to really
1072
00:59:22,742 --> 00:59:24,776
go into the town
and stay there.
1073
00:59:24,877 --> 00:59:26,912
Get into an edge
of the town.
1074
00:59:27,013 --> 00:59:29,347
Control some certain
portion of the town
1075
00:59:29,449 --> 00:59:30,816
where people can come
up to you safely
1076
00:59:30,917 --> 00:59:32,884
and talk to you.
1077
00:59:32,985 --> 00:59:33,685
It's immensely
important
1078
00:59:33,786 --> 00:59:34,653
to begin
working with
1079
00:59:34,754 --> 00:59:36,188
indigenous forces
right away.
1080
00:59:36,289 --> 00:59:37,022
Because one
of the things
1081
00:59:37,123 --> 00:59:38,090
the enemy
will use is,
1082
00:59:38,191 --> 00:59:39,958
well, the occupier
is here, you know,
1083
00:59:40,059 --> 00:59:42,060
the crusader is
here, and so-forth.
1084
00:59:42,161 --> 00:59:42,928
And the best
way for you
1085
00:59:43,029 --> 00:59:43,995
to clarify those
intentions
1086
00:59:44,097 --> 00:59:45,997
is to work with
the local populace,
1087
00:59:46,099 --> 00:59:48,733
and be seen in
a supportive role.
1088
00:59:48,835 --> 00:59:51,203
Treat the population
with respect,
1089
00:59:51,304 --> 00:59:52,504
and then people
will recognize
1090
00:59:52,605 --> 00:59:55,273
the enemy propaganda
for what it is.
1091
00:59:55,374 --> 00:59:56,575
They're desperate
in a lot of cases
1092
00:59:56,676 --> 00:59:58,009
for an
improved life,
1093
00:59:58,111 --> 01:00:01,113
so they'll come to you
with information.
1094
01:00:01,214 --> 01:00:02,280
Then you can begin
to understand
1095
01:00:02,381 --> 01:00:03,381
the dynamics
in the area
1096
01:00:03,483 --> 01:00:06,785
through this effective
reconnaissance.
1097
01:00:06,886 --> 01:00:08,386
You have to build
the confidence back
1098
01:00:08,488 --> 01:00:10,722
in the people that
you're going to leave,
1099
01:00:10,823 --> 01:00:12,290
but you're going
to leave in place
1100
01:00:12,391 --> 01:00:16,061
a security structure
that they can trust.
1101
01:00:16,162 --> 01:00:17,629
It was the
kind of simple,
1102
01:00:17,730 --> 01:00:21,199
yet novel ideas
that your father
1103
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:23,068
put into place
1104
01:00:23,168 --> 01:00:25,870
and it came down to
making life better
1105
01:00:25,971 --> 01:00:28,038
in a given village
1106
01:00:28,140 --> 01:00:30,875
so that you
engendered trust
1107
01:00:30,976 --> 01:00:33,477
and ultimately
gained intelligence
1108
01:00:33,578 --> 01:00:35,346
from a much
more welcoming
1109
01:00:35,447 --> 01:00:37,181
local community.
1110
01:00:37,282 --> 01:00:39,316
Uh, at the
same time,
1111
01:00:39,417 --> 01:00:40,484
when you found
somebody that
1112
01:00:40,585 --> 01:00:43,087
the villagers
identified as
1113
01:00:43,188 --> 01:00:45,422
a bad guy,
kill him.
1114
01:00:45,524 --> 01:00:47,558
Quick.
1115
01:00:47,659 --> 01:00:48,826
The increasing
influence
1116
01:00:48,927 --> 01:00:50,361
of the government
resulted in a lot
1117
01:00:50,462 --> 01:00:52,663
of information
coming in.
1118
01:00:52,764 --> 01:00:54,598
A major problem was
how to decide
1119
01:00:54,699 --> 01:00:55,833
what was valid
information
1120
01:00:55,934 --> 01:00:57,201
and what was
actionable,
1121
01:00:57,302 --> 01:00:59,436
what we could do
something about.
1122
01:00:59,538 --> 01:01:00,704
The Phoenix Program
1123
01:01:00,805 --> 01:01:02,239
was an effort
to bring together
1124
01:01:02,340 --> 01:01:04,275
the various
disparate elements
1125
01:01:04,376 --> 01:01:06,744
of the intelligence
gathering organizations
1126
01:01:06,845 --> 01:01:09,513
from take action to
neutralize the bad guys
1127
01:01:09,614 --> 01:01:11,916
as a consequence
of that information.
1128
01:01:12,017 --> 01:01:12,950
This was a
major effort
1129
01:01:13,051 --> 01:01:15,319
that your dad
instigated.
1130
01:01:19,391 --> 01:01:20,558
The P.R.U.
Were really
1131
01:01:20,659 --> 01:01:22,526
the offensive
arm that
1132
01:01:22,627 --> 01:01:24,995
the irregular
forces had.
1133
01:01:25,096 --> 01:01:26,697
Often they were
former V.C.
1134
01:01:26,798 --> 01:01:29,166
Themselves who were
reconfigured
1135
01:01:29,267 --> 01:01:31,202
to work for
the government.
1136
01:01:31,303 --> 01:01:32,636
They had a very,
very effective
1137
01:01:32,737 --> 01:01:34,605
ratio of losses
to those that
1138
01:01:34,706 --> 01:01:36,340
they captured
or killed.
1139
01:01:36,441 --> 01:01:38,275
For every P.R.U.
That was lost,
1140
01:01:38,376 --> 01:01:41,045
why they, uh,
neutralized, killed,
1141
01:01:41,146 --> 01:01:44,949
or captured
sixty-seven V.C.
1142
01:01:45,050 --> 01:01:45,916
I remember
once talking
1143
01:01:46,017 --> 01:01:48,052
to him about
the P.R.U.'s
1144
01:01:48,153 --> 01:01:49,620
These were
former Vietcong
1145
01:01:49,721 --> 01:01:50,454
who were hired
1146
01:01:50,555 --> 01:01:51,689
and paid by
the Agency
1147
01:01:51,790 --> 01:01:53,524
to go out and,
and go into
1148
01:01:53,625 --> 01:01:56,927
V.C. Areas and,
and counterattack
1149
01:01:57,027 --> 01:01:58,628
and kill who
was ever there.
1150
01:01:58,729 --> 01:02:01,531
And Colby's response was,
'cause there was a...
1151
01:02:01,632 --> 01:02:02,932
I mean this was
a guy who understood
1152
01:02:03,033 --> 01:02:05,835
the hardness of life
and war and what needed
1153
01:02:05,936 --> 01:02:08,504
to be done, uh,
against an enemy,
1154
01:02:08,606 --> 01:02:10,707
um, there was
no option.
1155
01:02:10,808 --> 01:02:12,242
He said, "Now Steve,
the Indians were coming
1156
01:02:12,343 --> 01:02:13,910
in through
the windows.
1157
01:02:14,011 --> 01:02:17,313
And, and you
gotta shoot back."
1158
01:02:17,414 --> 01:02:19,515
Intelligence was
very effective
1159
01:02:19,617 --> 01:02:20,917
during that
couple of years.
1160
01:02:21,018 --> 01:02:22,986
We rounded up
a large number
1161
01:02:23,087 --> 01:02:24,554
of people who
gave up fighting
1162
01:02:24,655 --> 01:02:27,357
for the other side
and came in.
1163
01:02:27,458 --> 01:02:29,359
We had enough presence
by this time
1164
01:02:29,460 --> 01:02:31,394
in all the
hamlets that,
1165
01:02:31,495 --> 01:02:32,428
that the
Vietnamese knew
1166
01:02:32,529 --> 01:02:33,696
the South
Vietnamese knew
1167
01:02:33,797 --> 01:02:35,465
pretty much what
was going on,
1168
01:02:35,566 --> 01:02:36,399
and it was a
matter of getting
1169
01:02:36,500 --> 01:02:38,334
some of them
to tell you,
1170
01:02:38,435 --> 01:02:39,869
which the South
Vietnamese became
1171
01:02:39,970 --> 01:02:42,338
increasingly
effective at doing.
1172
01:02:47,144 --> 01:02:49,112
The Phoenix Program
1173
01:02:49,213 --> 01:02:50,747
was intended
to root out
1174
01:02:50,848 --> 01:02:53,283
the infrastructure
of the V.C.
1175
01:02:53,384 --> 01:02:56,286
North Vietnamese.
1176
01:02:56,387 --> 01:02:57,920
To gather
intelligence
1177
01:02:58,022 --> 01:03:01,357
where the insurgents
were located,
1178
01:03:01,458 --> 01:03:03,593
to cut them off,
1179
01:03:03,694 --> 01:03:06,396
to take their
supplies away.
1180
01:03:06,497 --> 01:03:07,864
They never
had too much
1181
01:03:07,965 --> 01:03:09,699
in the way
of supplies.
1182
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:12,135
And to destroy
in effect
1183
01:03:12,236 --> 01:03:15,705
the infrastructure
of the insurgency.
1184
01:03:15,806 --> 01:03:19,108
And it is essential
in a counter-insurgency
1185
01:03:19,209 --> 01:03:21,911
to root out that
infrastructure.
1186
01:03:22,012 --> 01:03:25,315
Unless one is
able to root out
1187
01:03:25,416 --> 01:03:28,685
those who organize
the insurgency,
1188
01:03:28,785 --> 01:03:31,119
and cripple
their operations,
1189
01:03:31,220 --> 01:03:34,456
one is not going
to defeat them.
1190
01:03:34,557 --> 01:03:37,159
Colby received a great
deal of criticism
1191
01:03:37,260 --> 01:03:38,660
for the
Phoenix Program
1192
01:03:38,761 --> 01:03:40,595
here in the
United States,
1193
01:03:40,697 --> 01:03:43,198
but if you are
engaged in conflict
1194
01:03:43,299 --> 01:03:44,833
of that sort,
1195
01:03:44,934 --> 01:03:47,703
you must make use
of those tools
1196
01:03:47,804 --> 01:03:50,272
that are
indispensable
1197
01:03:50,373 --> 01:03:52,641
in winning
the conflict.
1198
01:03:52,742 --> 01:03:56,111
If you are afraid to
make use of those tools,
1199
01:03:56,212 --> 01:03:59,881
then you should not
be in that conflict.
1200
01:04:02,185 --> 01:04:03,085
Yes there
were abuses;
1201
01:04:03,186 --> 01:04:05,287
there was no
doubt about it.
1202
01:04:05,388 --> 01:04:07,923
The Agency had
installed a program
1203
01:04:08,024 --> 01:04:09,825
to hold and
to interrogate,
1204
01:04:09,926 --> 01:04:12,794
uh, people who
were captured,
1205
01:04:12,895 --> 01:04:15,030
and that was very
much a mixed bag
1206
01:04:15,131 --> 01:04:20,802
in the way these
folks were treated.
1207
01:04:20,903 --> 01:04:21,937
There was nobody
really looking
1208
01:04:22,038 --> 01:04:24,406
over the shoulder
of the South Vietnamese
1209
01:04:24,507 --> 01:04:26,508
who were doing the
interrogating and,
1210
01:04:26,609 --> 01:04:29,010
uh, they really
got out of hand,
1211
01:04:29,112 --> 01:04:31,446
some, on, on, on
certain occasions.
1212
01:04:31,547 --> 01:04:33,849
By the time I got
there in 1969,
1213
01:04:33,950 --> 01:04:34,783
it felt much
more like
1214
01:04:34,884 --> 01:04:36,284
an assassination
program,
1215
01:04:36,386 --> 01:04:37,319
I mean, because
it's very
1216
01:04:37,420 --> 01:04:41,523
difficult to
control it.
1217
01:04:41,624 --> 01:04:44,159
We were supporting
the Vietnamese units.
1218
01:04:44,260 --> 01:04:46,528
They were doing a lot
of the intel work;
1219
01:04:46,629 --> 01:04:49,197
go out in the
field with us.
1220
01:04:49,298 --> 01:04:50,365
There's no way
to know whether
1221
01:04:50,466 --> 01:04:51,199
the person
delivering
1222
01:04:51,300 --> 01:04:53,135
the intelligence
was reliable.
1223
01:04:53,236 --> 01:04:54,202
It wasn't
like you had
1224
01:04:54,303 --> 01:04:56,371
people that you
trusted completely.
1225
01:04:56,472 --> 01:04:57,506
You tell me
you've got
1226
01:04:57,607 --> 01:04:58,206
somebody out here
that's a part of
1227
01:04:58,307 --> 01:04:59,474
the infrastructure,
1228
01:04:59,574 --> 01:05:01,142
and I've, I've got
to make a decision
1229
01:05:01,243 --> 01:05:02,076
do I follow
up and,
1230
01:05:02,177 --> 01:05:03,577
and do something
about it?
1231
01:05:03,678 --> 01:05:06,113
So it felt like it
had been corrupted
1232
01:05:06,214 --> 01:05:09,583
in a bad way when
I saw it in '69.
1233
01:05:09,684 --> 01:05:12,153
This was a program
in which the only
1234
01:05:12,254 --> 01:05:14,088
way to, sort of,
bring things
1235
01:05:14,189 --> 01:05:16,590
under control
were to...
1236
01:05:16,691 --> 01:05:18,392
let the Vietnamese
people know
1237
01:05:18,493 --> 01:05:19,727
that if you're on
the wrong side
1238
01:05:19,828 --> 01:05:21,796
we're going
to kill you.
1239
01:05:24,733 --> 01:05:26,033
It was a
basic belief,
1240
01:05:26,134 --> 01:05:27,401
as it is always
when we go
1241
01:05:27,502 --> 01:05:28,602
in a country
where we have
1242
01:05:28,703 --> 01:05:30,671
no real
background,
1243
01:05:30,772 --> 01:05:34,175
that you can't
trust anybody.
1244
01:05:34,276 --> 01:05:35,576
And therefore
you have to
1245
01:05:35,677 --> 01:05:38,112
set a standard
'cause there was
1246
01:05:38,213 --> 01:05:40,948
so much killing
going on,
1247
01:05:41,049 --> 01:05:43,617
that the only thing
these people know,
1248
01:05:43,718 --> 01:05:45,519
the only thing they
know and respect
1249
01:05:45,620 --> 01:05:50,624
is harsh treatment to
bring people around.
1250
01:05:55,130 --> 01:05:55,996
We always
presumed that
1251
01:05:56,097 --> 01:05:57,164
whatever he
was doing was
1252
01:05:57,265 --> 01:06:01,502
always for the good,
never anything wrong.
1253
01:06:03,638 --> 01:06:05,639
Here was those posters
all over town
1254
01:06:05,740 --> 01:06:07,274
with the ace
of spades,
1255
01:06:07,375 --> 01:06:10,010
comparing him to
Heinrich Himmler.
1256
01:06:10,111 --> 01:06:11,111
Responsible
for the deaths
1257
01:06:11,213 --> 01:06:14,014
of twenty-nine,
thirty thousand people.
1258
01:06:17,886 --> 01:06:18,886
Thousands of
demonstrators
1259
01:06:18,987 --> 01:06:20,554
opposed to the
Vietnam War
1260
01:06:20,655 --> 01:06:22,089
assembled in the
nation's capital
1261
01:06:22,190 --> 01:06:24,024
for a mass protest.
1262
01:06:24,125 --> 01:06:25,226
The crowd,
estimated at
1263
01:06:25,327 --> 01:06:26,961
about fifty
thousand persons,
1264
01:06:27,062 --> 01:06:28,762
included adults,
students,
1265
01:06:28,864 --> 01:06:30,197
even children.
1266
01:06:32,132 --> 01:06:34,667
People would turn
to me and say,
1267
01:06:34,768 --> 01:06:39,372
"You know, your
dad was a murderer."
1268
01:06:39,473 --> 01:06:41,074
My immediate reaction
used to be,
1269
01:06:41,175 --> 01:06:44,210
"You don't know what
you're talking about."
1270
01:06:44,311 --> 01:06:46,379
And then I'd find
myself thinking,
1271
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:48,248
"Was he?
1272
01:06:48,349 --> 01:06:52,185
Well, who was
he, really?"
1273
01:06:52,286 --> 01:06:53,720
It was tough
on my mother.
1274
01:06:53,821 --> 01:06:56,356
She became more
and more isolated.
1275
01:06:56,457 --> 01:06:58,458
A good part of her
crowd in Washington,
1276
01:06:58,559 --> 01:06:59,859
some C.I.A. People
were starting to
1277
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:01,895
turn against
the war.
1278
01:07:01,996 --> 01:07:05,598
And she's being
the loyal wife.
1279
01:07:05,699 --> 01:07:09,469
She was a
good woman.
1280
01:07:09,570 --> 01:07:10,303
I don't know
if the truth
1281
01:07:10,404 --> 01:07:11,804
was really what
we were after.
1282
01:07:11,906 --> 01:07:16,142
We were maybe afraid
of the truth.
1283
01:07:16,243 --> 01:07:18,545
If he was
morally corrupt,
1284
01:07:18,646 --> 01:07:20,079
to the detriment
of thousands of
1285
01:07:20,180 --> 01:07:23,383
people, would
be the worst.
1286
01:07:26,620 --> 01:07:31,991
It's a very difficult
field, really.
1287
01:07:32,092 --> 01:07:34,193
Those who serve
1288
01:07:34,295 --> 01:07:36,329
have loyalty to
the Agency itself,
1289
01:07:36,430 --> 01:07:38,798
but certainly must have
inner loyalties
1290
01:07:38,899 --> 01:07:40,900
in their code
of behavior,
1291
01:07:41,001 --> 01:07:45,305
which they would
not violate,
1292
01:07:45,406 --> 01:07:53,012
and one has to
take on faith
1293
01:07:53,113 --> 01:07:58,384
and trust that
the right thing
1294
01:07:58,485 --> 01:08:00,587
is being done,
1295
01:08:00,688 --> 01:08:07,427
and perhaps the...
1296
01:08:07,527 --> 01:08:09,761
for the greater good.
1297
01:08:09,862 --> 01:08:13,932
It's very difficult,
I find, to explain.
1298
01:08:14,033 --> 01:08:16,668
Colby's response
to the potential
1299
01:08:16,769 --> 01:08:18,270
for abuse of
Phoenix was,
1300
01:08:18,371 --> 01:08:21,206
was very legalistic,
very American.
1301
01:08:21,307 --> 01:08:23,508
Whether it was
all that effective
1302
01:08:23,610 --> 01:08:24,776
is something
that I think
1303
01:08:24,877 --> 01:08:25,944
he may have even,
1304
01:08:26,045 --> 01:08:28,714
I, I think he knew
that the tool he had
1305
01:08:28,815 --> 01:08:32,317
in his hands, uh,
was an inadequate tool
1306
01:08:32,418 --> 01:08:35,187
given the human
reality of what
1307
01:08:35,288 --> 01:08:37,389
was happening when a
society falls apart
1308
01:08:37,490 --> 01:08:39,625
and people want
to settle scores,
1309
01:08:39,726 --> 01:08:43,195
take revenge, or just
abuse their power.
1310
01:08:47,433 --> 01:08:49,768
He always defended
the effort as necessary,
1311
01:08:49,869 --> 01:08:51,303
but that he had,
1312
01:08:51,404 --> 01:08:52,537
he had
reservations
1313
01:08:52,639 --> 01:08:55,140
as to do we have
the right, uh,
1314
01:08:55,241 --> 01:08:59,277
programmatic set of,
of guidelines,
1315
01:08:59,379 --> 01:09:00,479
behaviors, people
to do this
1316
01:09:00,580 --> 01:09:02,547
in the
right way?
1317
01:09:02,649 --> 01:09:04,116
The chair would
emphasize that
1318
01:09:04,217 --> 01:09:07,352
today's hearings
will not only be
1319
01:09:07,453 --> 01:09:08,654
an examination of
1320
01:09:08,755 --> 01:09:10,389
Mr. Colby's
qualifications
1321
01:09:10,490 --> 01:09:14,226
and background,
but will also
1322
01:09:14,327 --> 01:09:17,429
review a number
of policies relating
1323
01:09:17,530 --> 01:09:21,500
to the Central Intelligence
Agency itself.
1324
01:09:21,601 --> 01:09:24,803
My dad came back from
Vietnam in 1971
1325
01:09:24,904 --> 01:09:27,639
and went back
into the C.I.A.
1326
01:09:27,740 --> 01:09:29,007
He was appointed
by Richard Nixon
1327
01:09:29,108 --> 01:09:31,576
to be Director
of the C.I.A.
1328
01:09:31,678 --> 01:09:33,445
Now you are familiar
with the controversy
1329
01:09:33,546 --> 01:09:37,315
over the Phoenix
Program in Vietnam.
1330
01:09:37,416 --> 01:09:38,649
There have been
allegations that,
1331
01:09:38,750 --> 01:09:40,918
in effect, this
Phoenix Program was
1332
01:09:41,019 --> 01:09:43,788
an assassination
program.
1333
01:09:43,889 --> 01:09:45,690
What are
the facts?
1334
01:09:45,791 --> 01:09:47,892
Mr. Chairman,
I've, uh, testified
1335
01:09:47,993 --> 01:09:50,127
in, in extenso
on this subject,
1336
01:09:50,228 --> 01:09:52,530
uh, before the Senate Foreign
Relations Committee
1337
01:09:52,631 --> 01:09:56,467
in February 1970,
uh, before the...
1338
01:09:56,568 --> 01:10:00,104
He was the lawyer when
he was testifying.
1339
01:10:00,205 --> 01:10:05,142
Calm, steady,
professional
1340
01:10:05,243 --> 01:10:09,714
in telling you just
enough of the truth.
1341
01:10:09,815 --> 01:10:14,085
No more,
never anymore.
1342
01:10:14,186 --> 01:10:15,019
- Under oath.
1343
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:16,287
I'm prepared to,
uh, repeat it
1344
01:10:16,388 --> 01:10:17,822
if necessary.
1345
01:10:17,923 --> 01:10:19,190
That Phoenix
Program was not
1346
01:10:19,291 --> 01:10:21,559
a program of
assassination.
1347
01:10:21,660 --> 01:10:22,793
The Phoenix Program was
1348
01:10:22,894 --> 01:10:26,397
a part of the overall
Pacification Program,
1349
01:10:26,498 --> 01:10:28,365
which was designed to
strengthen the government
1350
01:10:28,467 --> 01:10:30,735
of South Vietnam
and its people
1351
01:10:30,836 --> 01:10:34,238
against the assault
led against them
1352
01:10:34,339 --> 01:10:36,474
by the North Vietnamese
through a program...
1353
01:10:36,575 --> 01:10:38,909
You couldn't get
too close to him.
1354
01:10:39,010 --> 01:10:40,010
He said,
"Oh, they can
1355
01:10:40,112 --> 01:10:42,213
follow me around
all day and all night,
1356
01:10:42,314 --> 01:10:43,547
all year long
and they'll never
1357
01:10:43,648 --> 01:10:45,049
find anything
on me.
1358
01:10:45,150 --> 01:10:48,285
I've got nothing
to hide."
1359
01:10:48,386 --> 01:10:50,421
I thought,
"How can there
1360
01:10:50,522 --> 01:10:52,223
be nothing that you
want to hide?"
1361
01:10:52,324 --> 01:10:55,926
- In order to bring some
order into the fight
1362
01:10:56,027 --> 01:10:57,995
between the
subversion,
1363
01:10:58,096 --> 01:11:00,331
uh, by the North
Vietnamese
1364
01:11:00,432 --> 01:11:03,801
and the Viet Cong
and the government.
1365
01:11:03,902 --> 01:11:05,669
How many, roughly,
would you estimate
1366
01:11:05,771 --> 01:11:06,737
were eliminated?
1367
01:11:06,838 --> 01:11:07,705
The word
"eliminate"
1368
01:11:07,805 --> 01:11:09,405
referred to
the entire,
1369
01:11:09,507 --> 01:11:11,641
uh, program against
the apparatus.
1370
01:11:11,742 --> 01:11:12,542
Well, you can
say, "kill 'em,"
1371
01:11:12,643 --> 01:11:13,343
if you wanted.
1372
01:11:13,444 --> 01:11:14,010
We, we
said, "kill".
1373
01:11:14,111 --> 01:11:14,844
Uh, the figure...
1374
01:11:14,945 --> 01:11:16,312
the word we
used was "kill"
1375
01:11:16,413 --> 01:11:17,714
for the people
who were killed
1376
01:11:17,815 --> 01:11:19,048
and there was
no euphemism
1377
01:11:19,150 --> 01:11:21,017
applied to
it at all.
1378
01:11:21,118 --> 01:11:23,787
Colby suffered
from a total
1379
01:11:23,888 --> 01:11:27,457
exaggeration of what
Phoenix was about.
1380
01:11:27,558 --> 01:11:29,626
Fortunately it
did not interfere
1381
01:11:29,727 --> 01:11:30,894
with his
confirmation
1382
01:11:30,995 --> 01:11:35,899
as Director of
Central Intelligence.
1383
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,735
The first time I
talked to your father,
1384
01:11:38,836 --> 01:11:41,971
it was on
the phone.
1385
01:11:42,072 --> 01:11:45,108
It was in the middle
of Watergate.
1386
01:11:45,209 --> 01:11:46,442
The Senate
Watergate Committee
1387
01:11:46,544 --> 01:11:50,980
was focused on
the C.I.A. Role.
1388
01:11:51,081 --> 01:11:53,683
The trail led
to the C.I.A.,
1389
01:11:53,784 --> 01:11:56,886
but not as the
sponsor of Watergate,
1390
01:11:56,987 --> 01:12:00,256
uh, as one of
the enablers.
1391
01:12:00,357 --> 01:12:03,693
Watergate was a
White House operation.
1392
01:12:03,794 --> 01:12:05,995
Nixon was at
the center.
1393
01:12:06,096 --> 01:12:10,767
The C.I.A. Does what
the president wants.
1394
01:12:10,868 --> 01:12:13,336
Nixon was
criminal.
1395
01:12:13,437 --> 01:12:16,005
Nixon was poison.
1396
01:12:16,106 --> 01:12:20,376
The crimes and
lies were too many.
1397
01:12:20,477 --> 01:12:22,378
The idea that
a president
1398
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:25,515
and a White House
would use the C.I.A.
1399
01:12:25,616 --> 01:12:31,120
For overtly illegal,
political activities
1400
01:12:31,222 --> 01:12:35,124
didn't really dawn
on lots of people.
1401
01:12:35,226 --> 01:12:37,093
When Colby became
the Director of
1402
01:12:37,194 --> 01:12:40,230
Central Intelligence
in 1973,
1403
01:12:40,330 --> 01:12:43,999
he didn't know about
the assassination plots
1404
01:12:44,100 --> 01:12:47,002
that had been ordered
by the White House
1405
01:12:47,103 --> 01:12:49,872
against Fidel Castro,
for example.
1406
01:12:49,973 --> 01:12:52,207
He didn't know
about the existence
1407
01:12:52,308 --> 01:12:54,676
of secret prisons
where suspected
1408
01:12:54,777 --> 01:12:57,512
double agents
were tortured.
1409
01:12:57,614 --> 01:13:01,149
Spying on Americans,
mind control experiments
1410
01:13:01,251 --> 01:13:04,987
with drugs on unwitting
human guinea pigs.
1411
01:13:05,088 --> 01:13:08,290
As he is learning
about these secrets,
1412
01:13:08,391 --> 01:13:12,127
Richard Nixon's existence
is threatened.
1413
01:13:12,228 --> 01:13:14,229
There's been an
obstruction of justice
1414
01:13:14,330 --> 01:13:15,731
at the White House.
1415
01:13:15,832 --> 01:13:17,933
Impeachable offenses
have taken place,
1416
01:13:18,034 --> 01:13:19,001
and the question is,
1417
01:13:19,102 --> 01:13:22,304
"Is the president
going to survive?"
1418
01:13:22,405 --> 01:13:26,141
In this atmosphere
of deep mistrust
1419
01:13:26,242 --> 01:13:27,342
of government,
1420
01:13:27,443 --> 01:13:29,011
had these secrets
been revealed,
1421
01:13:29,112 --> 01:13:30,679
it would have been
the death of the C.I.A.,
1422
01:13:30,780 --> 01:13:33,482
and Bill Colby
knew it.
1423
01:13:33,583 --> 01:13:36,752
Nixon had tried
to get the C.I.A.
1424
01:13:36,853 --> 01:13:39,154
To take responsibility for
Watergate
1425
01:13:39,255 --> 01:13:39,988
as a way
of getting
1426
01:13:40,089 --> 01:13:42,357
himself off the hook.
1427
01:13:42,458 --> 01:13:44,826
After the resignation
of Nixon,
1428
01:13:44,928 --> 01:13:46,028
it was almost
as though
1429
01:13:46,129 --> 01:13:48,797
the next big story
after Watergate was going
1430
01:13:48,898 --> 01:13:52,968
to be trouble in the
intelligence community.
1431
01:13:53,069 --> 01:13:55,037
As Nixon falls,
1432
01:13:55,138 --> 01:13:57,506
as a new president
is sworn in,
1433
01:13:57,607 --> 01:14:00,509
Colby keeps
the 'Family Jewels'
1434
01:14:00,610 --> 01:14:03,245
as they were known,
under wraps.
1435
01:14:03,346 --> 01:14:08,517
The danger of their
disclosure is immense.
1436
01:14:08,618 --> 01:14:10,185
I did learn
from people inside
1437
01:14:10,286 --> 01:14:12,454
the agency that there
had been these documents
1438
01:14:12,554 --> 01:14:14,121
called the
'Family Jewels'.
1439
01:14:14,222 --> 01:14:16,257
And I had your father's
phone number
1440
01:14:16,358 --> 01:14:17,425
and I called him.
1441
01:14:17,526 --> 01:14:20,094
He did see me,
and he didn't lie to me.
1442
01:14:20,195 --> 01:14:22,430
What he did was
if I said there was
1443
01:14:22,531 --> 01:14:24,365
at least a hundred
and twenty cases
1444
01:14:24,466 --> 01:14:26,701
of wire breaking,
or wiretapping
1445
01:14:26,802 --> 01:14:29,370
of American citizens, uh,
contrary to the law in,
1446
01:14:29,471 --> 01:14:33,774
in America, he said my number
is only sixty three.
1447
01:14:33,875 --> 01:14:35,876
It was a question
of numbers.
1448
01:14:35,978 --> 01:14:38,179
He did not back away
from the question of wrongdoing.
1449
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:40,948
And so that's one hell
of a story.
1450
01:14:41,049 --> 01:14:42,783
Your father was essential
to publishing
1451
01:14:42,884 --> 01:14:44,819
the story about
domestic spying.
1452
01:14:47,856 --> 01:14:51,058
It was in the aftermath of
that New York Times story
1453
01:14:51,159 --> 01:14:56,163
that Bill called me to ask
to come over and speak
1454
01:14:56,264 --> 01:14:58,866
with me on
a very sensitive matter.
1455
01:14:58,967 --> 01:15:01,736
That was the meeting
in which Bill disclosed
1456
01:15:01,837 --> 01:15:07,608
the crown jewels... the CIA's
activities during the Cold War.
1457
01:15:07,709 --> 01:15:10,077
There were
some matters,
1458
01:15:10,178 --> 01:15:14,181
which clearly raised
legal problems.
1459
01:15:14,282 --> 01:15:16,150
And he would have been
delighted if I had said,
1460
01:15:16,251 --> 01:15:17,284
"Don't worry
about it Bill,
1461
01:15:17,386 --> 01:15:19,787
we're not going
to look into that."
1462
01:15:19,888 --> 01:15:23,124
Uh, but I don't think
he expected that.
1463
01:15:23,225 --> 01:15:25,726
I think he knew that we would
have had no alternative
1464
01:15:25,827 --> 01:15:26,961
but to carefully look
into all
1465
01:15:27,062 --> 01:15:30,765
the allegations
of illegality.
1466
01:15:30,866 --> 01:15:34,135
Colby feels compelled
to let President Ford
1467
01:15:34,236 --> 01:15:36,937
know what's in the
'Family Jewels'.
1468
01:15:37,039 --> 01:15:42,476
Colby sends a six-page letter
to Henry Kissinger,
1469
01:15:42,577 --> 01:15:46,213
the Secretary of State,
outlining the worst
1470
01:15:46,313 --> 01:15:49,115
of what could be revealed
when the Senate
1471
01:15:49,216 --> 01:15:52,852
and the House gin up their
investigative committees,
1472
01:15:52,953 --> 01:15:54,888
post-Watergate.
1473
01:15:54,989 --> 01:15:58,658
Kissinger slows down
when he gets to the passage
1474
01:15:58,759 --> 01:16:02,062
about assassination plots,
and mutters,
1475
01:16:02,163 --> 01:16:06,199
"Oh, well,
these are horrors."
1476
01:16:06,300 --> 01:16:09,002
Ford has a meeting with
Kissinger
1477
01:16:09,103 --> 01:16:13,173
and Vice President Rockefeller,
and Ford's Chief of Staff,
1478
01:16:13,274 --> 01:16:15,475
Donald Rumsfeld,
in which he says,
1479
01:16:15,576 --> 01:16:20,447
"The C.I.A. Will be destroyed
if this comes out."
1480
01:16:20,548 --> 01:16:22,715
Ford decided that he
would appoint a commission
1481
01:16:22,817 --> 01:16:25,051
to investigate
domestic surveillance
1482
01:16:25,152 --> 01:16:28,188
as revealed
by Sy Hersh's story.
1483
01:16:28,289 --> 01:16:30,657
Vice President Rockefeller was
the head of it;
1484
01:16:30,758 --> 01:16:32,725
Governor Reagan
was on it.
1485
01:16:32,827 --> 01:16:35,995
A lot of people,
most of them rather right wing.
1486
01:16:36,097 --> 01:16:38,364
At lunch the next day
at the White House,
1487
01:16:38,466 --> 01:16:41,835
Abe Rosenthal, then the editor
of the New York Times,
1488
01:16:41,936 --> 01:16:43,103
raised a point
and said,
1489
01:16:43,204 --> 01:16:45,338
"Mr. President,
I see that you've
1490
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:47,173
appointed Rockefeller
and a bunch
1491
01:16:47,274 --> 01:16:50,076
of right-wingers
to investigate the C.I.A.
1492
01:16:50,177 --> 01:16:54,647
What credibility do you
think that they will have
1493
01:16:54,748 --> 01:16:56,483
since they are obviously
are supporters
1494
01:16:56,584 --> 01:16:58,118
of the C.I. A?"
1495
01:16:58,219 --> 01:17:00,720
Ford said, "Well, that's
an interesting question
1496
01:17:00,821 --> 01:17:03,490
I had to be very careful
about whom I appointed
1497
01:17:03,591 --> 01:17:04,958
to this commission,
1498
01:17:05,059 --> 01:17:07,060
because it's very likely
that they're going
1499
01:17:07,161 --> 01:17:10,096
to come across things
a lot more serious
1500
01:17:10,197 --> 01:17:11,931
than domestic
surveillance."
1501
01:17:12,032 --> 01:17:14,467
Abe says,
in his inimitable way,
1502
01:17:14,568 --> 01:17:17,270
Abe says,
"Like what?"
1503
01:17:17,370 --> 01:17:20,172
President Ford,
in his inimitable way says,
1504
01:17:20,273 --> 01:17:23,108
"Like assassinations."
1505
01:17:23,209 --> 01:17:25,744
A hush falls
over the lunch.
1506
01:17:25,845 --> 01:17:27,312
After the lunch,
the Times people
1507
01:17:27,413 --> 01:17:28,780
went to the
Times office,
1508
01:17:28,882 --> 01:17:30,115
big question,
what do we do
1509
01:17:30,216 --> 01:17:31,783
with what
we heard?
1510
01:17:31,885 --> 01:17:33,018
They went back
and forth.
1511
01:17:33,119 --> 01:17:35,320
Finally the publisher,
Sulzberger, said,
1512
01:17:35,421 --> 01:17:36,955
"This was
a social lunch,
1513
01:17:37,056 --> 01:17:38,690
the President
obviously misspoke.
1514
01:17:38,791 --> 01:17:40,325
He should not
have said that.
1515
01:17:40,426 --> 01:17:42,427
So we're not going
to do this story."
1516
01:17:42,529 --> 01:17:43,962
And that was
the end of it.
1517
01:17:44,063 --> 01:17:45,898
But it wasn't the end of it,
of course.
1518
01:17:45,999 --> 01:17:47,633
President Ford
has reportedly
1519
01:17:47,734 --> 01:17:49,735
warned associates that
if current investigations
1520
01:17:49,836 --> 01:17:51,370
go too far,
they could uncover
1521
01:17:51,471 --> 01:17:53,739
several assassinations
of foreign officials,
1522
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:55,807
in which the C.I.A.
Was involved.
1523
01:17:55,909 --> 01:17:58,644
When this burst
on the scene,
1524
01:17:58,745 --> 01:18:01,547
with some of the
more colorful stories
1525
01:18:01,648 --> 01:18:04,983
that came out,
it was really
1526
01:18:05,084 --> 01:18:09,755
a witch's cauldron
that was brewing.
1527
01:18:09,856 --> 01:18:12,457
So I was all
for the President
1528
01:18:12,559 --> 01:18:15,194
using all
the executive authority
1529
01:18:15,295 --> 01:18:17,829
that he could
to contain this,
1530
01:18:17,931 --> 01:18:19,331
this problem.
1531
01:18:19,432 --> 01:18:22,067
It isn't
just assassinations.
1532
01:18:22,168 --> 01:18:26,238
It's the whole area
of activity of government
1533
01:18:26,339 --> 01:18:29,308
covered by a cloak
of excessive secrecy.
1534
01:18:29,409 --> 01:18:33,779
We didn't realize how this
pent-up passion
1535
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:36,582
in the Congress,
feeling that they ought
1536
01:18:36,683 --> 01:18:39,218
to have been more entitled
to a role
1537
01:18:39,319 --> 01:18:43,488
in shaping national policy
toward the Vietnam War,
1538
01:18:43,590 --> 01:18:46,258
together with journalists
who were competing
1539
01:18:46,359 --> 01:18:47,559
to be on
the air every night
1540
01:18:47,660 --> 01:18:50,028
with something ever more
sensational
1541
01:18:50,128 --> 01:18:53,431
would so work together
to create just
1542
01:18:53,532 --> 01:18:57,235
this unstoppable tide
of disregard
1543
01:18:57,336 --> 01:18:59,203
for the
national interest.
1544
01:18:59,304 --> 01:19:01,439
This is a matter
of such gravity
1545
01:19:01,540 --> 01:19:06,210
it goes right to the roots
of our morality as a nation.
1546
01:19:06,311 --> 01:19:08,713
Therefore, it must be
dealt with by the Congress,
1547
01:19:08,814 --> 01:19:11,616
and it must be dealt
with as a matter of law.
1548
01:19:11,717 --> 01:19:14,785
None of us knew exactly what
to do at that point.
1549
01:19:14,886 --> 01:19:17,555
It wasn't quite we
were just trying to survive,
1550
01:19:17,656 --> 01:19:20,858
but it was a very,
very hectic period.
1551
01:19:20,959 --> 01:19:24,762
President Ford
was also weak.
1552
01:19:24,863 --> 01:19:27,632
An unelected president coming
in after
1553
01:19:27,733 --> 01:19:32,470
a presidential catastrophe,
he didn't have the authority
1554
01:19:32,571 --> 01:19:36,874
that a president usually
has with the Congress.
1555
01:19:36,975 --> 01:19:39,210
It was a really
desperate time.
1556
01:19:39,311 --> 01:19:41,078
This was a way
to destroy
1557
01:19:41,179 --> 01:19:43,848
the whole
intelligence system.
1558
01:19:43,949 --> 01:19:46,083
And then we had
to try to prevent that.
1559
01:19:46,184 --> 01:19:47,585
Mr. Chairman,
these last two months
1560
01:19:47,686 --> 01:19:50,187
have placed American
intelligence in danger.
1561
01:19:50,289 --> 01:19:52,657
The almost hysterical
excitement that surrounds
1562
01:19:52,758 --> 01:19:53,724
any new story
1563
01:19:53,825 --> 01:19:56,127
mentioning C.I.A.,
or referring even
1564
01:19:56,228 --> 01:19:58,062
to a perfectly
legitimate activity
1565
01:19:58,163 --> 01:20:00,564
of C.I.A.
Has raised the question
1566
01:20:00,666 --> 01:20:03,934
whether secret intelligence
operations can be conducted
1567
01:20:04,036 --> 01:20:05,970
by the United States.
1568
01:20:06,071 --> 01:20:09,140
Your father's calendar
was horrendous.
1569
01:20:09,241 --> 01:20:12,510
He did have an intelligence
organization to run.
1570
01:20:12,611 --> 01:20:16,013
If General Scowcroft called,
or if Kissinger called,
1571
01:20:16,114 --> 01:20:17,915
it didn't matter
what was on the calendar,
1572
01:20:18,016 --> 01:20:19,750
the calendar
had to be scrubbed
1573
01:20:19,851 --> 01:20:23,054
and everything
re-juggled.
1574
01:20:23,154 --> 01:20:25,588
He had the whole future
of the agency
1575
01:20:25,690 --> 01:20:28,692
on his shoulders.
1576
01:20:28,793 --> 01:20:33,263
April 1975,
Colby sits before
1577
01:20:33,364 --> 01:20:35,932
the National Security Council
and tries to tell them
1578
01:20:36,033 --> 01:20:39,569
that we are about to lose
the war in Vietnam.
1579
01:20:39,670 --> 01:20:42,405
Saigon is falling.
1580
01:20:42,506 --> 01:20:44,674
They don't want
to hear that.
1581
01:20:44,775 --> 01:20:47,410
He says, "we can try
for redoubt here,
1582
01:20:47,511 --> 01:20:49,379
or we can negotiate
a settlement.
1583
01:20:49,480 --> 01:20:51,915
We've got many,
many thousands of people,
1584
01:20:52,016 --> 01:20:55,085
Americans and Vietnamese
in Saigon
1585
01:20:55,186 --> 01:20:56,753
who are going
to be trapped.
1586
01:20:56,854 --> 01:21:00,690
We owe it to those people
to get them out.
1587
01:21:00,791 --> 01:21:02,959
We need to plan
for this now."
1588
01:21:03,060 --> 01:21:04,794
"Not while I'm Secretary
of State,"
1589
01:21:04,895 --> 01:21:06,162
says Henry Kissinger.
1590
01:21:06,263 --> 01:21:09,833
"We're not going to negotiate
any kind of settlement."
1591
01:21:09,934 --> 01:21:17,073
Colby had been dedicated
to Vietnam since 1959.
1592
01:21:17,174 --> 01:21:18,875
Sixteen years.
1593
01:21:18,976 --> 01:21:22,879
"We can save nothing,"
Kissinger says to Colby.
1594
01:21:22,980 --> 01:21:28,385
"Nothing but lives,"
says Bill Colby.
1595
01:21:28,486 --> 01:21:29,919
I don't know
how your father
1596
01:21:30,020 --> 01:21:34,958
maintained any composure
at all because not only did
1597
01:21:35,059 --> 01:21:37,527
he have to
protect his agency
1598
01:21:37,628 --> 01:21:40,296
against this withering
assault by dozens
1599
01:21:40,398 --> 01:21:43,466
of congressmen, senators,
staffers,
1600
01:21:43,567 --> 01:21:46,636
in a public setting,
with the cameras rolling,
1601
01:21:46,737 --> 01:21:48,438
but even among
the friendlies,
1602
01:21:48,539 --> 01:21:50,740
that is, people
in the executive branch
1603
01:21:50,841 --> 01:21:54,844
that he would have expected
to count on
1604
01:21:54,944 --> 01:21:58,180
to be supported by were
insisting
1605
01:21:58,281 --> 01:22:05,087
that he limit
what he said,
1606
01:22:05,188 --> 01:22:08,791
even stay too far
on the side
1607
01:22:08,892 --> 01:22:13,395
of maintaining
secrecy simply
1608
01:22:13,496 --> 01:22:15,564
to refuse
any larger role
1609
01:22:15,665 --> 01:22:19,435
by the Congress in the
influencing foreign policy
1610
01:22:19,536 --> 01:22:21,837
that it was
an enormously complex
1611
01:22:21,938 --> 01:22:24,807
and difficult atmosphere
to function in.
1612
01:22:24,908 --> 01:22:28,744
I don't know how he
could make it
1613
01:22:28,845 --> 01:22:31,947
from day to day
under those pressures.
1614
01:22:32,048 --> 01:22:34,082
We have to abandon
the old tradition
1615
01:22:34,184 --> 01:22:36,752
of total secrecy,
but I think we do
1616
01:22:36,853 --> 01:22:40,355
have to agree that there
are secrets in America,
1617
01:22:40,457 --> 01:22:43,325
in our ballot box
and other areas of our life
1618
01:22:43,426 --> 01:22:46,028
that we do respect,
and that intelligence
1619
01:22:46,129 --> 01:22:49,731
has a legitimate area
in which it needs secrets,
1620
01:22:49,833 --> 01:22:51,400
and in which
its secrets need
1621
01:22:51,501 --> 01:22:53,836
to be protected,
for the benefits not
1622
01:22:53,937 --> 01:22:56,605
of intelligence,
but for our nation.
1623
01:22:56,706 --> 01:23:01,643
Bill Colby believed that
confession, up to a point,
1624
01:23:01,744 --> 01:23:03,946
was good
for the soul.
1625
01:23:04,047 --> 01:23:07,182
That they could not stonewall
the Senate, and the House,
1626
01:23:07,283 --> 01:23:12,654
or the American people,
that they had to try
1627
01:23:12,755 --> 01:23:14,189
to be seen to be telling
the truth about
1628
01:23:14,290 --> 01:23:15,357
what they
had done.
1629
01:23:15,458 --> 01:23:17,960
It was an extraordinarily
difficult moment
1630
01:23:18,061 --> 01:23:19,461
because the President
of the United States
1631
01:23:19,562 --> 01:23:23,031
didn't want to do it,
and neither did
1632
01:23:23,132 --> 01:23:25,667
his Chief of Staff,
Don Rumsfeld.
1633
01:23:25,767 --> 01:23:30,071
Why did the agency
prepare toxins
1634
01:23:30,172 --> 01:23:34,075
of this character
in quantities sufficient
1635
01:23:34,176 --> 01:23:37,745
to kill many thousands
of people?
1636
01:23:37,846 --> 01:23:42,316
I can not explain why
that quantity was developed
1637
01:23:42,417 --> 01:23:44,752
except that this was
a collaboration
1638
01:23:44,853 --> 01:23:48,122
that we were engaged in
with the United States Army,
1639
01:23:48,223 --> 01:23:51,292
and we did develop this
particular 'weapon'
1640
01:23:51,393 --> 01:23:53,861
you might say,
as a possible, uh,
1641
01:23:53,962 --> 01:23:55,897
for possible use.
1642
01:23:55,998 --> 01:24:01,302
My husband testified
in complete honesty.
1643
01:24:01,403 --> 01:24:05,973
He did what needed
to be done.
1644
01:24:06,074 --> 01:24:08,743
To hide things from
Congress could possibly
1645
01:24:08,844 --> 01:24:12,380
have been the end
of the C.I.A.
1646
01:24:12,481 --> 01:24:16,651
It was a very challenging
and painful
1647
01:24:16,752 --> 01:24:20,187
and trying time for him,
for all of us
1648
01:24:20,289 --> 01:24:22,690
in the family.
1649
01:24:22,791 --> 01:24:25,826
The prime reason
for C.I.A.
1650
01:24:25,928 --> 01:24:28,496
Is to keep
America safe,
1651
01:24:28,597 --> 01:24:34,802
one still cannot do things
that are illegal or immoral.
1652
01:24:34,903 --> 01:24:38,506
The officer has
to have a moral compass
1653
01:24:38,607 --> 01:24:41,609
within himself.
1654
01:24:41,710 --> 01:24:45,446
I thought the moral compass
was seeing us through,
1655
01:24:45,547 --> 01:24:49,550
really, seeing us through
difficult times.
1656
01:24:49,651 --> 01:24:56,791
I think that the death
of your sister
1657
01:24:56,892 --> 01:25:02,330
and the attitudes of,
uh, the public sparked
1658
01:25:02,430 --> 01:25:06,566
a good deal of remorse
is not quite the word,
1659
01:25:06,667 --> 01:25:11,705
but guilt feelings
in your father.
1660
01:25:11,806 --> 01:25:15,342
And when the Church Committee
got rolling,
1661
01:25:15,443 --> 01:25:20,146
he began to reveal things
about the history
1662
01:25:20,247 --> 01:25:22,949
of the Agency that
did not have to be
1663
01:25:23,050 --> 01:25:25,485
revealed at
that time.
1664
01:25:25,586 --> 01:25:27,687
And at one of
the morning sessions,
1665
01:25:27,788 --> 01:25:30,156
General Walters,
who was his deputy,
1666
01:25:30,257 --> 01:25:38,031
said to him, "Well Bill,
I'm a Catholic, uh, too
1667
01:25:38,132 --> 01:25:42,736
and I believe that it
is enough to go
1668
01:25:42,837 --> 01:25:48,074
to the confessional
and to tell one's sins
1669
01:25:48,175 --> 01:25:49,576
in the confessional.
1670
01:25:49,677 --> 01:25:50,677
One doesn't have
to do that
1671
01:25:50,778 --> 01:25:54,080
before Congressional
committees."
1672
01:25:54,181 --> 01:25:57,217
We did have discussions
in the White House.
1673
01:25:57,318 --> 01:26:01,588
I remember Cheney saying,
"Can't you control him?"
1674
01:26:01,689 --> 01:26:05,725
I told him the President
wanted it done his way,
1675
01:26:05,826 --> 01:26:08,228
not Bill's way.
1676
01:26:08,329 --> 01:26:11,898
He disagreed,
but he was not rebellious.
1677
01:26:11,999 --> 01:26:15,268
It is essential that we
be able to assure our
1678
01:26:15,369 --> 01:26:17,937
foreign agents abroad,
a number of whom
1679
01:26:18,039 --> 01:26:20,974
have already expressed
their alarm and limited
1680
01:26:21,075 --> 01:26:23,276
what they tell us,
that their names
1681
01:26:23,377 --> 01:26:26,646
will be totally protected,
since their lives
1682
01:26:26,747 --> 01:26:29,182
or livelihoods
are at peril.
1683
01:26:29,283 --> 01:26:32,218
The responsibility
of someone who heads
1684
01:26:32,318 --> 01:26:35,954
an intelligence agency
is to respect
1685
01:26:36,056 --> 01:26:38,457
the authority and
responsibilities
1686
01:26:38,558 --> 01:26:42,528
of the legislature
to a point,
1687
01:26:42,629 --> 01:26:44,563
but to stand up
to them
1688
01:26:44,664 --> 01:26:46,298
when they are asking
for something
1689
01:26:46,399 --> 01:26:49,635
that exceeds their authority
or places
1690
01:26:49,736 --> 01:26:51,904
our national security
in danger.
1691
01:26:52,005 --> 01:26:55,407
I will follow
the Constitution and my oaths,
1692
01:26:55,508 --> 01:26:56,508
and I will respond.
1693
01:26:56,609 --> 01:26:58,043
There will
be certain things
1694
01:26:58,144 --> 01:26:59,978
that I will ask you
not to ask,
1695
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:02,081
such as the name
of an agent someplace.
1696
01:27:02,182 --> 01:27:03,816
You have just stated
in open session
1697
01:27:03,917 --> 01:27:05,617
that you do not trust
four hundred
1698
01:27:05,719 --> 01:27:07,619
and thirty five members
of Congress.
1699
01:27:07,721 --> 01:27:10,289
And it would seem to me
for you as one person
1700
01:27:10,390 --> 01:27:12,925
to make the determination
that you do not trust
1701
01:27:13,026 --> 01:27:14,526
four hundred and thirty five
members,
1702
01:27:14,627 --> 01:27:16,161
each of whom
represent four hundred
1703
01:27:16,262 --> 01:27:18,764
and sixty four thousand people,
each of whom won
1704
01:27:18,865 --> 01:27:21,767
an open election in ostensibly
a democratic society,
1705
01:27:21,868 --> 01:27:22,701
I would say
to you sir,
1706
01:27:22,802 --> 01:27:25,104
you don't have the right
to play God.
1707
01:27:25,205 --> 01:27:27,172
Mr. Dellums,
I am not playing God,
1708
01:27:27,273 --> 01:27:29,241
I am only enforcing
the laws that
1709
01:27:29,342 --> 01:27:31,577
the& that the Congress passed
and the directives
1710
01:27:31,678 --> 01:27:35,347
of our government to protect
some of the necessary secrets
1711
01:27:35,448 --> 01:27:37,816
of the intelligence business,
to protect
1712
01:27:37,917 --> 01:27:40,652
that very free society
that both you
1713
01:27:40,754 --> 01:27:43,122
and I want
to protect.
1714
01:27:43,223 --> 01:27:45,124
He may have
naively believed,
1715
01:27:45,225 --> 01:27:47,893
or maybe had no choice
in believing
1716
01:27:47,994 --> 01:27:50,662
that Church
and Pike and those people
1717
01:27:50,764 --> 01:27:53,398
would handle it
in a rational way
1718
01:27:53,500 --> 01:27:57,369
and understand the damage
that could come out.
1719
01:27:57,470 --> 01:28:02,107
Um, and I think in that case,
he was mistaken.
1720
01:28:02,208 --> 01:28:05,110
There was just
too much public clamor,
1721
01:28:05,210 --> 01:28:07,912
and there was disbelief
all over.
1722
01:28:08,013 --> 01:28:10,915
People were looking
for ways to attack
1723
01:28:11,016 --> 01:28:13,184
and so, not only
what he delivered
1724
01:28:13,285 --> 01:28:15,686
became a target,
therefore, the Agency.
1725
01:28:15,788 --> 01:28:18,089
But then he
became a target.
1726
01:28:18,190 --> 01:28:20,391
It's the way
Washington works.
1727
01:28:20,492 --> 01:28:23,060
People don't
like failure.
1728
01:28:23,162 --> 01:28:25,730
Would you just tell me why
that letter
1729
01:28:25,831 --> 01:28:27,899
has to be
top secret?
1730
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:30,434
Because it includes with it,
as attachments,
1731
01:28:30,536 --> 01:28:32,670
a number of top secret
documents.
1732
01:28:32,771 --> 01:28:35,006
Why can't I show
that letter
1733
01:28:35,107 --> 01:28:37,809
to anybody
I want to?
1734
01:28:37,910 --> 01:28:39,110
I would be glad
to review this
1735
01:28:39,211 --> 01:28:40,711
and if you want
to release
1736
01:28:40,813 --> 01:28:41,746
this particular letter.
1737
01:28:41,847 --> 01:28:43,481
I don't want you
to release
1738
01:28:43,582 --> 01:28:45,383
that letter,
Mr. Colby.
1739
01:28:45,484 --> 01:28:49,053
I have lived with this
for fourteen years.
1740
01:28:49,154 --> 01:28:52,356
I have drowned in pieces
of papers stamped
1741
01:28:52,457 --> 01:28:54,959
top secret that had
no right to be stamped
1742
01:28:55,060 --> 01:28:57,895
top secret whatsoever.
1743
01:28:57,996 --> 01:29:02,066
Bill Colby was a person
who spent the major portion
1744
01:29:02,167 --> 01:29:07,638
of his post-college years
in a clandestine activity
1745
01:29:07,739 --> 01:29:10,374
and it... that is not
the best place in the world
1746
01:29:10,475 --> 01:29:13,377
to develop the social skills
and the political skills
1747
01:29:13,478 --> 01:29:16,080
to deal with members
of Congress.
1748
01:29:16,181 --> 01:29:17,582
I don't think that
there should be
1749
01:29:17,683 --> 01:29:18,816
this kind
of surveillance.
1750
01:29:18,917 --> 01:29:21,219
It interferes with
First Amendment rights.
1751
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:22,253
To impinge
upon the rights
1752
01:29:22,354 --> 01:29:23,421
of American citizens
where there
1753
01:29:23,522 --> 01:29:26,190
is clearly no reason
to do so&
1754
01:29:26,291 --> 01:29:27,592
My Constitution
didn't say anything
1755
01:29:27,693 --> 01:29:30,561
about assassination,
wiretapping,
1756
01:29:30,662 --> 01:29:33,064
abusing private citizens'
right to privacy,
1757
01:29:33,165 --> 01:29:35,433
I am trying to articulate
the way
1758
01:29:35,533 --> 01:29:38,568
in which we Americans
can gather together
1759
01:29:38,669 --> 01:29:40,937
to control this,
to supervise this
1760
01:29:41,038 --> 01:29:44,207
intelligence business,
but not to destroy it.
1761
01:29:44,308 --> 01:29:46,042
How many files
of this character
1762
01:29:46,143 --> 01:29:48,645
do you maintain on
other members of Congress?
1763
01:29:48,746 --> 01:29:50,480
What about
those Army files?
1764
01:29:50,581 --> 01:29:51,781
Do you have
any idea what volume
1765
01:29:51,883 --> 01:29:53,717
of records
were destroyed?
1766
01:29:53,818 --> 01:29:54,618
I do not, no.
1767
01:29:54,719 --> 01:29:55,785
Do you know
what documents
1768
01:29:55,887 --> 01:29:56,620
he destroyed?
1769
01:29:56,721 --> 01:30:00,357
Does this pistol
fire the dart?
1770
01:30:00,458 --> 01:30:01,458
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
1771
01:30:01,559 --> 01:30:03,426
What disciplinary action
has been taken?
1772
01:30:03,527 --> 01:30:05,295
No agency has
the right to rise
1773
01:30:05,396 --> 01:30:07,197
above any
other agency.
1774
01:30:07,298 --> 01:30:09,266
Don't you think that's
an exceedingly loose way
1775
01:30:09,367 --> 01:30:10,400
to run
an agency?
1776
01:30:10,501 --> 01:30:14,371
Um, particularly,
um, the C.I. A?
1777
01:30:14,472 --> 01:30:18,608
Well, we're going to try
to run it tighter.
1778
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:24,948
My dad testified
thirty two times
1779
01:30:25,049 --> 01:30:28,118
to Congressional committees
in one year.
1780
01:30:30,354 --> 01:30:33,857
My father would come home,
watch the news,
1781
01:30:33,958 --> 01:30:36,159
comment on it.
1782
01:30:36,260 --> 01:30:37,727
He wouldn't even
really roll his eyes,
1783
01:30:37,828 --> 01:30:39,996
he'd be
always positive.
1784
01:30:40,097 --> 01:30:42,432
It'll work out.
1785
01:30:42,533 --> 01:30:44,501
He really did believe
actually in the wisdom
1786
01:30:44,602 --> 01:30:47,938
of the American people.
1787
01:30:48,039 --> 01:30:49,205
If he had lied
to the Congress,
1788
01:30:49,307 --> 01:30:51,474
he would have been
a broken man.
1789
01:30:51,575 --> 01:30:54,511
He couldn't lie
to those people.
1790
01:30:54,612 --> 01:30:57,681
Bill really became
a tortured soul
1791
01:30:57,782 --> 01:30:59,649
in this period.
1792
01:30:59,750 --> 01:31:04,020
He saw his life
and his life's work crumbling.
1793
01:31:04,121 --> 01:31:09,893
I often wondered if Bill
was not expiating his sins,
1794
01:31:09,993 --> 01:31:12,728
starting with the
Phoenix Program, and whatever
1795
01:31:12,829 --> 01:31:17,366
had gone wrong in it
that he felt responsible for.
1796
01:31:17,467 --> 01:31:20,469
Then the tragedy
of his daughter,
1797
01:31:20,570 --> 01:31:25,140
that, that he was
maybe like Job,
1798
01:31:25,241 --> 01:31:28,143
he had
to atone.
1799
01:31:28,244 --> 01:31:30,412
I would never say
he fell apart,
1800
01:31:30,513 --> 01:31:33,382
but it was
a very traumatic period,
1801
01:31:33,483 --> 01:31:35,250
and I think he could
be excused for,
1802
01:31:35,352 --> 01:31:41,890
uh, for getting overwhelmed
at times.
1803
01:31:41,992 --> 01:31:44,460
Bill Colby was
on the hot seat.
1804
01:31:44,561 --> 01:31:46,662
He was nominated by
the President,
1805
01:31:46,763 --> 01:31:48,530
confirmed by
the Senate to serve
1806
01:31:48,631 --> 01:31:51,200
as Director of the
Central Intelligence Agency.
1807
01:31:51,301 --> 01:31:53,402
Therefore he was
the individual
1808
01:31:53,503 --> 01:31:56,005
who had the baton,
he was the one
1809
01:31:56,106 --> 01:31:58,707
who had to deal with
the oversight committees.
1810
01:31:58,808 --> 01:32:01,844
A person in
that job does feel
1811
01:32:01,945 --> 01:32:06,749
that they're,
report to two places.
1812
01:32:08,118 --> 01:32:10,786
It is this question
of to whom do you owe
1813
01:32:10,887 --> 01:32:13,522
your ultimate loyalty?
1814
01:32:13,623 --> 01:32:16,125
Is your loyalty
to the agency,
1815
01:32:16,226 --> 01:32:17,993
your fellow people,
and to what
1816
01:32:18,094 --> 01:32:22,097
you have done,
done not to make money,
1817
01:32:22,198 --> 01:32:23,899
not for personal glory,
1818
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:27,002
done because you,
the President,
1819
01:32:27,103 --> 01:32:29,038
or in, in,
in some cases,
1820
01:32:29,139 --> 01:32:31,874
his brother,
wanted it done,
1821
01:32:31,975 --> 01:32:37,513
or is the loyalty to
the Congress and an oath?
1822
01:32:37,614 --> 01:32:39,681
To this day,
there is a feeling
1823
01:32:39,782 --> 01:32:40,848
that people
on the Hill
1824
01:32:40,949 --> 01:32:43,184
don't really care,
don't understand.
1825
01:32:43,285 --> 01:32:46,287
And so when they ask
you something,
1826
01:32:46,388 --> 01:32:49,290
you really have
to make a choice.
1827
01:32:49,391 --> 01:32:50,725
When, in fact,
once you take an oath,
1828
01:32:50,826 --> 01:32:53,094
you don't
have a choice.
1829
01:32:53,195 --> 01:32:55,630
The C.I.A. And its Director
was always caught
1830
01:32:55,731 --> 01:32:58,833
between doing the wish
of the President
1831
01:32:58,934 --> 01:33:00,301
and the law.
1832
01:33:00,402 --> 01:33:03,438
And when the President said,
do this, do that,
1833
01:33:03,539 --> 01:33:07,575
um, the law got
set aside normally.
1834
01:33:07,676 --> 01:33:10,178
The Presidency in the person
of Nixon had lost
1835
01:33:10,279 --> 01:33:12,346
its moral authority.
1836
01:33:12,448 --> 01:33:15,917
Ford was kind of
the accidental President
1837
01:33:16,018 --> 01:33:18,586
in this post-Watergate
atmosphere.
1838
01:33:18,687 --> 01:33:21,756
He didn't have
the moral authority.
1839
01:33:21,857 --> 01:33:24,559
All of a sudden, you're
in this political world
1840
01:33:24,660 --> 01:33:27,562
as C.I.A. Director
and you have to establish
1841
01:33:27,663 --> 01:33:29,630
what's the authority?
1842
01:33:29,731 --> 01:33:31,599
Moral or otherwise.
1843
01:33:31,700 --> 01:33:35,169
And Congress,
under Article One,
1844
01:33:35,270 --> 01:33:40,174
has this incredible authority,
over even the C.I.A.
1845
01:33:40,275 --> 01:33:42,176
They had
the authority.
1846
01:33:42,277 --> 01:33:48,850
Colby tried to walk
a middle line, and finally,
1847
01:33:48,951 --> 01:33:51,886
really acquiesced
to the law.
1848
01:33:51,987 --> 01:33:57,792
It was a call he made
personally on the law.
1849
01:33:57,893 --> 01:34:02,330
Trust, as David Abshire
has said so often,
1850
01:34:02,431 --> 01:34:05,733
is the coin
of the realm.
1851
01:34:05,834 --> 01:34:08,469
And the most important
ingredient...
1852
01:34:08,570 --> 01:34:12,874
the oil on
the glue is truth.
1853
01:34:12,974 --> 01:34:15,308
Truth builds trust.
1854
01:34:15,409 --> 01:34:17,377
We are empowered
to go out
1855
01:34:17,478 --> 01:34:20,380
and engage in activities,
in which deception
1856
01:34:20,481 --> 01:34:22,082
is appropriate.
1857
01:34:22,183 --> 01:34:24,384
And we have
to remind ourselves,
1858
01:34:24,485 --> 01:34:28,321
however, that we
do not lie to each other.
1859
01:34:28,422 --> 01:34:30,223
And we do not lie
to the officials
1860
01:34:30,324 --> 01:34:34,294
of our government
who have a right to know.
1861
01:34:34,395 --> 01:34:36,696
Whatever you think
about Bill Colby
1862
01:34:36,797 --> 01:34:40,033
and the way he handled it,
he was tarnished
1863
01:34:40,134 --> 01:34:43,503
by his incessantly being called
up before the Congress
1864
01:34:43,604 --> 01:34:45,505
over and over
and over again.
1865
01:34:45,606 --> 01:34:51,278
He had lost any ability
to manage either his agency
1866
01:34:51,379 --> 01:34:53,513
or his relations
with the Hill.
1867
01:34:53,614 --> 01:34:55,248
He was
a spent force,
1868
01:34:55,349 --> 01:34:58,652
and it was... almost
an act of mercy
1869
01:34:58,753 --> 01:35:02,789
in a sense,
to end... to end it.
1870
01:35:02,890 --> 01:35:04,191
Because he was,
he was really
1871
01:35:04,292 --> 01:35:05,825
a tortured soul.
1872
01:35:09,163 --> 01:35:11,331
Did this come
as a personal disappointment
1873
01:35:11,432 --> 01:35:13,099
to you that you
are being requested to resign?
1874
01:35:13,201 --> 01:35:14,267
Oh no.
1875
01:35:14,368 --> 01:35:16,570
As I said, I've, uh,
I anticipated a change,
1876
01:35:16,671 --> 01:35:18,205
and if that's better
for their business,
1877
01:35:18,306 --> 01:35:19,339
well, that's fine.
1878
01:35:19,440 --> 01:35:22,175
Mr. Colby, looking back
at it now,
1879
01:35:22,276 --> 01:35:24,010
do you wish maybe you'd taken
a firmer stand
1880
01:35:24,111 --> 01:35:25,345
with some of the committees
in Congress,
1881
01:35:25,446 --> 01:35:27,647
and perhaps not given them
quite as much information
1882
01:35:27,748 --> 01:35:28,448
as you have?
1883
01:35:28,549 --> 01:35:29,616
Would you do
it differently?
1884
01:35:29,717 --> 01:35:32,085
I don't think so,
I think the best way
1885
01:35:32,186 --> 01:35:33,920
was to get rid
of the past
1886
01:35:34,021 --> 01:35:36,323
and transition
into a future
1887
01:35:36,424 --> 01:35:39,025
of intelligence
under the Constitution
1888
01:35:39,126 --> 01:35:40,427
in the new structure.
1889
01:35:40,528 --> 01:35:43,563
What is your, uh,
projection for the C.I. A?
1890
01:35:43,664 --> 01:35:45,465
Would you have any idea
for a successor based
1891
01:35:45,565 --> 01:35:46,732
on your
own experience?
1892
01:35:46,833 --> 01:35:48,667
Oh, I think the...
as you know,
1893
01:35:48,768 --> 01:35:50,769
I've often said
that an outsider
1894
01:35:50,870 --> 01:35:53,539
would be appropriate
for the job,
1895
01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:56,375
and I think
that makes sense still.
1896
01:35:56,476 --> 01:35:58,911
I think it shouldn't be
a partisan political figure,
1897
01:35:59,012 --> 01:36:00,212
obviously.
1898
01:36:00,313 --> 01:36:02,348
I consider myself
fortunate indeed,
1899
01:36:02,449 --> 01:36:05,384
to have been confirmed
for this challenging job.
1900
01:36:05,485 --> 01:36:08,887
I want this job,
I want to do it well,
1901
01:36:08,989 --> 01:36:10,522
and I'm proud to be a part
of the C.I.A.
1902
01:36:10,624 --> 01:36:12,224
Thank you very much.
1903
01:36:16,062 --> 01:36:17,329
My wife
and I went
1904
01:36:17,430 --> 01:36:20,332
to the swearing-in
of George Bush senior
1905
01:36:20,433 --> 01:36:24,770
as Director of C.I.A.,
who replaced your father.
1906
01:36:24,871 --> 01:36:29,041
Your father had left along
with a couple of other people
1907
01:36:29,142 --> 01:36:31,810
that Ford wanted
to get rid of.
1908
01:36:31,911 --> 01:36:35,748
And, I remember as we left
after the swearing-in,
1909
01:36:35,849 --> 01:36:38,617
and it was a great occasion
for Bush, and everything,
1910
01:36:38,718 --> 01:36:41,654
we saw your father come out
of the thing,
1911
01:36:41,755 --> 01:36:44,657
and walk down by himself,
and get in his car
1912
01:36:44,758 --> 01:36:46,659
and drive off.
1913
01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:49,295
And, uh, my wife
almost cried.
1914
01:36:49,396 --> 01:36:52,431
He looked Ionely,
he was leaving,
1915
01:36:52,532 --> 01:36:56,802
no pretensions... just quietly
gets in his car and leaves.
1916
01:36:56,903 --> 01:36:57,870
And that's,
that's something we always
1917
01:36:57,971 --> 01:37:02,074
kind of remembered
about him.
1918
01:37:02,175 --> 01:37:04,576
I remember talking
to President Ford
1919
01:37:04,678 --> 01:37:07,146
about why
George Bush senior
1920
01:37:07,247 --> 01:37:11,350
to replace your dad
as C.I.A. Director.
1921
01:37:11,451 --> 01:37:14,787
Ford said,
"I wanted a loyalist."
1922
01:37:14,888 --> 01:37:18,223
He didn't consider your father
a loyalist.
1923
01:37:18,324 --> 01:37:20,892
I asked about
who was loyal.
1924
01:37:20,993 --> 01:37:23,861
"George Bush," he said
"Cheney, Rumsfeld,
1925
01:37:23,962 --> 01:37:28,700
Kissinger,
and Greenspan."
1926
01:37:28,801 --> 01:37:31,302
When my father drove out
of the gates of the C.I.A.
1927
01:37:31,403 --> 01:37:35,673
For the last time,
he was not broken or tortured.
1928
01:37:35,774 --> 01:37:38,242
He left with the strength
of his convictions,
1929
01:37:38,344 --> 01:37:42,013
his belief in the law
and the Constitution,
1930
01:37:42,114 --> 01:37:45,817
certain that he had done
the right thing.
1931
01:37:45,918 --> 01:37:48,319
Over the next several years,
I came to understand
1932
01:37:48,420 --> 01:37:51,456
that my father lived
in a world of secrets.
1933
01:37:51,557 --> 01:37:56,361
Always watching, listening,
his eye on the door.
1934
01:37:56,462 --> 01:37:59,230
He was tougher,
smarter, smoother,
1935
01:37:59,331 --> 01:38:03,434
and could be crueler
than anybody I ever knew.
1936
01:38:03,535 --> 01:38:06,104
I'm not sure
he ever loved anyone,
1937
01:38:06,205 --> 01:38:10,007
and I never heard him
say anything heartfelt.
1938
01:38:10,109 --> 01:38:11,843
By the time
I turned thirty,
1939
01:38:11,944 --> 01:38:15,980
I came to understand
the man that nobody knew,
1940
01:38:16,081 --> 01:38:20,818
or at least
I thought I did.
1941
01:38:20,919 --> 01:38:25,089
When he said,
"I want a divorce,"
1942
01:38:25,190 --> 01:38:28,326
I was really
knocked over,
1943
01:38:28,427 --> 01:38:31,462
really surprised,
and shocked.
1944
01:38:31,563 --> 01:38:33,765
I said,
"But we're Catholic,
1945
01:38:33,866 --> 01:38:36,467
we don't believe
in divorce."
1946
01:38:36,568 --> 01:38:39,003
So there goes
the Catholicism?
1947
01:38:39,104 --> 01:38:42,607
I mean,
I don't know.
1948
01:38:42,708 --> 01:38:48,413
He was a dedicated
public servant
1949
01:38:48,513 --> 01:38:54,885
who gave his best to,
to his work.
1950
01:38:54,986 --> 01:38:57,721
And, um,
1951
01:38:57,822 --> 01:39:01,258
and I think, um,
1952
01:39:01,359 --> 01:39:03,160
we had a,
1953
01:39:03,261 --> 01:39:08,498
we had a good family life
as long as it lasted.
1954
01:39:08,599 --> 01:39:13,303
And, um, he must say
he was...
1955
01:39:13,404 --> 01:39:15,872
I guess I would say
he was a complicated person
1956
01:39:15,973 --> 01:39:18,875
whom maybe I
didn't know as well
1957
01:39:18,976 --> 01:39:28,685
as I would hope
to think I do.
1958
01:39:28,786 --> 01:39:31,254
My father
was a soldier.
1959
01:39:31,355 --> 01:39:33,924
He jumped out
of airplanes.
1960
01:39:34,025 --> 01:39:37,761
He lived
to serve.
1961
01:39:37,862 --> 01:39:40,397
Before he left
on his last mission,
1962
01:39:40,498 --> 01:39:44,334
he wrote a couple
of books and married again.
1963
01:39:44,435 --> 01:39:47,637
Ten years passed.
1964
01:39:47,738 --> 01:39:50,841
One night, he fixed
his favorite meal
1965
01:39:50,942 --> 01:39:53,910
and had
a few drinks.
1966
01:39:54,011 --> 01:39:59,015
Then he got in his canoe
and disappeared.
1967
01:39:59,116 --> 01:40:04,087
His body washed ashore
nine days later.
1968
01:40:04,188 --> 01:40:09,059
Foul play was suspected,
but I knew otherwise.
1969
01:40:09,160 --> 01:40:11,862
He'd called me two weeks
before he died,
1970
01:40:11,963 --> 01:40:14,598
asking for my absolution,
for his not doing enough
1971
01:40:14,699 --> 01:40:18,802
for my sister Catherine
when she was so ill.
1972
01:40:18,903 --> 01:40:21,538
When his body was found,
he was carrying a picture
1973
01:40:21,638 --> 01:40:26,675
of my sister
in his wallet.
1974
01:40:26,776 --> 01:40:30,012
The Coroner's report listed
the cause of death as drowning,
1975
01:40:30,113 --> 01:40:33,415
brought on by a stroke
or heart attack.
1976
01:40:33,517 --> 01:40:36,752
Call it whatever you like,
I think he'd had enough
1977
01:40:36,853 --> 01:40:38,687
of this life.
1978
01:40:41,858 --> 01:40:44,260
My father lived
in the shadows.
1979
01:40:44,361 --> 01:40:46,996
He liked
being invisible.
1980
01:40:47,097 --> 01:40:48,931
He always wanted
his ashes scattered
1981
01:40:49,032 --> 01:40:51,534
to the winds.
1982
01:40:51,635 --> 01:40:54,103
But it was we who needed
the permanence
1983
01:40:54,204 --> 01:40:56,338
that he could
never provide.
1984
01:40:56,439 --> 01:40:58,607
We wanted
a hero.
1985
01:40:58,708 --> 01:41:00,776
It was for us,
the family,
1986
01:41:00,877 --> 01:41:03,712
that he was buried
at Arlington.
1987
01:41:03,813 --> 01:41:06,448
He never really
needed us.
1988
01:41:06,550 --> 01:41:10,452
It was us
who needed him.
146102
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