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[dash of raindrops]
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[tense music playing]
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[glass clattering]
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[Ben] Well look, I'm sorry
we can't do this in person.
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[JK] Yeah.
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[BeBut I can come there.
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But maybe
that's also not okay.
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[JK] That's not okay.
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[Ben] So it--
it has to be by phone?
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[JK] Yeah. Yeah.
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Okay, here's the thing,
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the government
don't want many views.
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I cannot talk to journalists
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as they don't want people to
know what is going on.
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[indistinct]
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As a father of two girls,
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I can't think of a gift
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more beautiful
and wholesome for society
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than giving
another couple a chance
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to start a loving family.
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[hospital din]
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[female reporter]
A scientist in China saying
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he created the world's first
genetically engineered babies.
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[news anchor] Authorities
in China have announced
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that the scientists
will be punished.
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[BeI didn't get the sense
you did this in secret,
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so you surely had input
from people along the way?
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The investigators know
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the identities
of the participants.
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I can imagine
they're very worried
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about their identities
being known.
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[indistinct]
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I understand that my work
will be controversial.
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But I believe
families need this technology,
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and I'm willing to take
the criticism for them.
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The real world
makes people better.
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[Ben] Make people better.
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[JK] Make people better.
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[knocking on door]
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Okay, hold on, somebody
is knocking on the door.
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This is a highly sensitive
matter of national security.
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[foreign dialogue]
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[tense music playing]
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[female reporter]
Changing the genetic code
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of the human race...
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[news anchor]
For generations...
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He was last seen at the Human
Genome Editing conference
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in Hong Kong on Wednesday.
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[melancholy music playing]
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[dramatic music playing]
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[Ben] So today
I'm gonna talk to you
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about human
genetic engineering.
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A project that has long been
dreamed of and discussed,
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worried over,
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but which in the last few years
has become realistic,
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has become plausible
and actually has taken place.
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I'm Ben Hurlbut,
I'm an associate professor
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in the School of Life Sciences
at Arizona State University.
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I study
how science sits in relation
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to other domains of practice,
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like ethical thinking.
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So the story
that I'm gonna tell you
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begins with an experiment
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undertaken by a young
Chinese scientist,
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his name is He Jiankui.
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He wanted to be
a kind of a defining project
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for himself, for his country,
and for humanity in general.
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And so...
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How we as a society
respond to advances
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that pose ethical
challenges for us.
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These are the first
human beings born with genomes
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that were altered by design.
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And the story
that very quickly took shape
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was a story of a lone actor
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who acted in secret
and of a rogue.
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So when JK
was taken into custody,
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it was clear
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that the Chinese authorities
wanted to control the story
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and also to make him disappear.
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[dramatic music playing]
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JK was put under house arrest.
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So he reached out to me
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wanting someone
to tell his story to.
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He wanted to tell
somebody outside of China
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the full truth.
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[phone ringing]
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[Ben] Hey, JK,
can you hear me okay?
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[JK] Yes. Yes. Yeah.
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So, what's going on?
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[JK] For the first kids ever
in the human experiment,
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it has a huge impact
if it doesn't work well,
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it will bring harm
to those people.
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That's why I started
on the monkeys and mice.
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-[BeMm-hmm.
-[JYeah.
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[indistinct]
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They're saying it is not
a true medical leap.
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It is their warning.
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I don't know if it is good
or bad for human.
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[Ben]
Will you speak to the press
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after the investigation or...
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[JK] I really don't know
about anything that happened.
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[indistinct] this person,
everything's out of control.
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[city din]
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Hey, Brian, it's Antonio,
Technology Review.
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-[Brian] Hey, how you doing?
-[Antonio] Good.
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[BriaWhat this means
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is the genetic engineering
of human progeny,
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ideally as
a commercial venture.
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There's lots of
science journalists out there,
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and people do their job
in-- in different ways.
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I tend to approach it more
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as an investigation
of what's going on,
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kind of finding out
what's actually happened
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and then
that can cause trouble,
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uh, you know,
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depending on whether
scientists are ready to--
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to say what they're doing
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or depending on
how you characterize
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what they're doing.
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Some of these things
are just kind of controversial.
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[dramatic music playing]
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We want you to imagine a place
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where technology
serves humanity
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and not the other way around.
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So please make the most of it
for your business,
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but even more importantly,
our society.
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[Antonio] Eventually,
we're going to have
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perfect control of the genome,
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and then we'll really
be able to create people
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to whatever design we want.
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[camera shutter clicks]
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[host]
We're going to be moving on
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to the next session now.
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Are we entering
a genomic revolution?
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Please join me
in welcoming to the stage,
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Antonio Regalado, senior editor
at MIT Tech Review,
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and George Church,
professor at Harvard.
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[Antonio] That's why I follow
around guys like George Church
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because he sees the future.
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He's kind of
describing the things
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that I need to understand.
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[host] George is a Harvard PhD,
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he's on faculty at MIT,
as well as Harvard.
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He's been at the forefront of
human germline genetic editing,
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engineering, human enhancement,
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anti-aging research,
and space genetics.
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I kind of think of you as
a national treasure, actually.
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[George] Everything in every
body of every organism,
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from your appearance,
your behavior
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is programmed by genes.
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And we finally have an ability
to edit those genes
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to make them what we want
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by changing it
with a synthetic piece of DNA
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to be exactly what we want.
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[computer beeping]
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Enhanced immunity, no fear
of any infectious disease,
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inherited diseases, aging.
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All kinds of amazing things
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that are beyond
most people's imagination.
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[Antonio] In the 1950s,
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Watson and Crick discover
the structure of DNA,
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and that kicks off
a revolution.
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Figures like George Church
in the 1980s and into the 1990s
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are key people in
the development of technologies
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for reading the genome
and decoding it.
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At the same time, there's
development of CRISPR-Cas9
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by Jennifer Doudna
and Emmanuelle Charpentier,
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which allows
direct modifications
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to really any organism,
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human beings included
in principle.
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Yet in much of the world
prohibitions were put in place
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saying that this is a line
that we will not cross
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and that crossing
would be criminal.
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Making a CRISPR baby was
prohibited, it was prohibited.
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There was a guidance
against it.
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But CRISPR babies
had suddenly become possible.
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And all the myths, you know,
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anybody, you know,
trying to be like God
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is sure to run
into a bunch of trouble.
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The wealthy get it
and the others don't, so I...
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Some people will not
want to mess with nature,
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but other people,
especially people with money,
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are going to sign up right away
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for themselves
and their children.
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So it's going to be
a huge problem.
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[host] Is trying
to overcome disease,
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trying to extend lifespan,
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trying to create synthetic
genomes, are these things,
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we're going to fly
too close to the sun?
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It only becomes arrogant
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and laughable or sad
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if we ignore
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or try to get around
the regulatory agencies.
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That's sort of alarming
to a lot of people.
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[Antonio] I mean, the future
can't come soon enough
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for George Church,
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so he's hustling
to make it happen.
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We're talking about a new phase
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where we get control of
evolution through technology.
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That's kind of what
George Church is talking about.
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He's saying
we are becoming like God...
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because we can
control evolution.
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[futuristic music playing]
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-[phone keypad beeping]
-[line tone ringing]
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[JK] Uh, at the very beginning,
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00:12:37,389 --> 00:12:40,025
it's just a scientist's
work or something,
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with breakthroughs
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and I fully agree
with George Church
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that preventing disease
even more important
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than treat the disease.
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If you spend $1 million
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to treat a genetic disease,
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it's too expensive,
it's not efficient.
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[indistinct] Gene editing
[indistinct] a problem
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[indistinct] a disease.
Create genetic vaccine.
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[George] When we think
about the revolution
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in biological engineering,
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a more interesting question
than what we'll be able to do
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is what will we
not be able to do,
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you know, curing disease
and going to other planets?
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We're much more limited
by our past than our future.
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About one in ten
of all couples
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have some difficulty
about fertility.
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We have been able
to do some work
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about carrying out
fertilization of an egg
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recovered from the woman,
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fertilized with
her husband's spermatozoa
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and replaced back
into the uterus.
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This lady is 31 years old,
infertile for nine years...
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[Ben] Over the course
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of the second half
of the 20th century,
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there have been
two powerful revolutions
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in human biology
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which are now converging.
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One of those was
the development of genetics,
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especially human genetics,
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and the other was
the development of IVF.
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[Patrick Steptoe] You are about
to see a historic birth
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following
in vitro fertilization.
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All our tests have shown
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that the growth of the baby
is satisfactory
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and that it's mature.
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[Ben] The first baby produced
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from a secret experiment
in human reproduction
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revealed, not through
peer reviewed publication
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but through the media,
was not in China.
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It was the first baby
born through IVF
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in 1978 in a backwater
hospital in the UK.
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[Patrick Steptoe]
A girl, as expected.
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Okay, this is pretty good.
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[baby crying]
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[Ben] In vitro fertilization,
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00:14:52,491 --> 00:14:55,094
it's taking eggs and sperm
out of a man and a woman
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00:14:55,094 --> 00:14:58,097
and putting them together
in a petri dish.
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Producing embryos
that are then transferred back
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00:15:00,966 --> 00:15:04,536
into the womb of a woman
and grown into a baby.
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00:15:07,973 --> 00:15:11,377
The human embryo was something
that was hidden from view
258
00:15:11,377 --> 00:15:14,680
up until the development
of in vitro fertilization.
259
00:15:15,447 --> 00:15:17,316
It took that process
260
00:15:17,316 --> 00:15:20,152
out of the deep interior
of the human body
261
00:15:20,152 --> 00:15:22,121
and put it
on the laboratory bench.
262
00:15:22,121 --> 00:15:23,689
[Antonio] But how do you prove
263
00:15:23,689 --> 00:15:25,658
that making a human being
through IVF is safe?
264
00:15:25,658 --> 00:15:28,027
Well, you can make
some rabbits.
265
00:15:28,027 --> 00:15:29,962
Maybe you can make a monkey.
266
00:15:29,962 --> 00:15:32,131
[Patrick Steptoe] This cry
of a baby is excellent
267
00:15:32,131 --> 00:15:34,700
because it means the lungs
are being very well expanded.
268
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:37,069
[Antonio] But you can't
ever prove that it's safe
269
00:15:37,069 --> 00:15:40,172
because you have to wait
the lifetime of the person.
270
00:15:42,374 --> 00:15:44,576
They just did it. [chuckles]
271
00:15:46,211 --> 00:15:50,182
[Ben] Today, roughly
one in 85 children
272
00:15:50,182 --> 00:15:51,717
born in the US
273
00:15:51,717 --> 00:15:54,186
is born through IVF.
274
00:15:54,186 --> 00:15:57,256
It is a multibillion-dollar
industry.
275
00:15:57,256 --> 00:15:58,490
Hey, how you doing?
276
00:16:00,359 --> 00:16:01,727
I'm at the American Society
277
00:16:01,727 --> 00:16:04,063
for Reproductive
Medicine Congress.
278
00:16:04,063 --> 00:16:07,566
This year's theme
is Reproduction Re-imagined.
279
00:16:07,566 --> 00:16:11,236
The groundwork
for what we're talking about
280
00:16:11,236 --> 00:16:15,374
has been repeating itself
over and over again since 1978.
281
00:16:15,374 --> 00:16:16,642
Do you want to hold the baby?
282
00:16:16,642 --> 00:16:19,578
And the ultimate point
of convergence
283
00:16:19,578 --> 00:16:21,747
is when the tools
of genomics are applied
284
00:16:21,747 --> 00:16:24,683
to produce genetically
engineered children.
285
00:16:24,683 --> 00:16:28,187
[baby crying]
286
00:16:28,187 --> 00:16:31,357
[dramatic music playing]
287
00:16:38,097 --> 00:16:41,166
[foreign dialogue]
288
00:16:44,370 --> 00:16:48,040
[street din]
289
00:16:59,451 --> 00:17:01,253
Could you ask her
if she has anything
290
00:17:01,253 --> 00:17:03,489
that can make me
young again like a baby?
291
00:17:03,489 --> 00:17:06,458
I'm a fan of this magazine
called Weekly World News.
292
00:17:06,458 --> 00:17:08,727
you used to be able to buy
at the supermarket
293
00:17:08,727 --> 00:17:10,763
and it was all fake stories.
294
00:17:10,763 --> 00:17:14,299
Batboy. Vampires or Wolfman.
295
00:17:14,299 --> 00:17:16,502
Scientists who've
gotten the seeds
296
00:17:16,502 --> 00:17:18,504
from the Garden of Eden,
from the apple tree
297
00:17:18,504 --> 00:17:20,372
and they're re-growing
the apple tree.
298
00:17:20,372 --> 00:17:22,541
So it's all Frankenstein stuff.
299
00:17:24,777 --> 00:17:28,213
And in my own work, I'm always
looking for that intersection
300
00:17:28,213 --> 00:17:31,483
between that
Weekly World Nesensibility
301
00:17:31,483 --> 00:17:33,552
and the actual technical truth.
302
00:17:33,552 --> 00:17:37,122
And so once you get
into embryos...
303
00:17:37,122 --> 00:17:40,325
you're in that zone, Weekly
World News meets reality.
304
00:17:42,661 --> 00:17:45,564
There's a constant series
of weird reports.
305
00:17:46,432 --> 00:17:48,133
A lot of them are from China.
306
00:17:50,102 --> 00:17:52,805
There was just one about
a male mouse giving birth.
307
00:17:54,573 --> 00:17:56,608
Weekly World News
meets reality.
308
00:17:58,310 --> 00:18:00,846
I once saw an embryo
floating in a little dish.
309
00:18:00,846 --> 00:18:03,248
It was just
a little pinprick of light,
310
00:18:03,248 --> 00:18:05,117
and the hairs
went up on my arm.
311
00:18:05,117 --> 00:18:06,351
They really did.
312
00:18:07,453 --> 00:18:09,822
That one little dot
can become a person.
313
00:18:09,822 --> 00:18:11,323
That is amazing.
314
00:18:13,759 --> 00:18:17,463
And I understand why scientists
are also really curious
315
00:18:17,463 --> 00:18:19,231
about how they can change it.
316
00:18:22,568 --> 00:18:25,170
Because the job of science
is to investigate nature
317
00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:26,738
and to manipulate nature.
318
00:18:27,773 --> 00:18:29,675
Genetics. What can it mean?
319
00:18:29,675 --> 00:18:31,477
The ability to perfect
320
00:18:31,477 --> 00:18:32,611
the physical
and mental characteristics
321
00:18:32,611 --> 00:18:34,513
of every unborn child.
322
00:18:34,513 --> 00:18:36,148
[Antonio] Gattaca is the movie
323
00:18:36,148 --> 00:18:38,117
scientists in the area
that I cover,
324
00:18:38,117 --> 00:18:39,685
most often bring up.
325
00:18:39,685 --> 00:18:41,787
I mean, it is a movie
that really captured
326
00:18:41,787 --> 00:18:43,355
where technology is headed...
327
00:18:43,355 --> 00:18:46,792
but also the kind of dilemmas
that it creates.
328
00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:48,794
[Vincent]
Now, only seconds old,
329
00:18:48,794 --> 00:18:52,464
the exact time cause
of my death was already known.
330
00:18:52,464 --> 00:18:54,833
The filmmaker was trying
to make a dystopia, right?
331
00:18:54,833 --> 00:18:57,603
The-- a world where everybody
is judged by their genes
332
00:18:57,603 --> 00:18:58,904
is a bad world.
333
00:18:58,904 --> 00:19:00,205
But there's
plenty of scientists
334
00:19:00,205 --> 00:19:02,141
who look at this movie
335
00:19:02,141 --> 00:19:03,809
and they have
the opposite take.
336
00:19:03,809 --> 00:19:07,212
[nursNeurological conditions
60% probability,
337
00:19:07,212 --> 00:19:09,915
manic depression,
42% probability.
338
00:19:09,915 --> 00:19:11,783
[Antonio] I had a scientist
339
00:19:11,783 --> 00:19:14,920
who works in trying
to score embryos for their IQ,
340
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,822
and he was inspired by Gattaca.
341
00:19:16,822 --> 00:19:19,158
For this person
and maybe more people,
342
00:19:19,158 --> 00:19:20,325
that's not dystopia...
343
00:19:21,393 --> 00:19:22,561
that's utopia.
344
00:19:23,896 --> 00:19:25,631
So as those technologies
345
00:19:25,631 --> 00:19:27,566
that are described
in that film become real,
346
00:19:27,566 --> 00:19:29,234
some people are embracing them.
347
00:19:34,940 --> 00:19:38,277
[Ben] So, JK, the press
you made out,
348
00:19:38,277 --> 00:19:41,313
you must have
done this in secret.
349
00:19:41,313 --> 00:19:44,316
And that sounds
very implausible to me.
350
00:19:44,316 --> 00:19:45,784
Are they wrong?
351
00:19:45,784 --> 00:19:47,886
[JK] Yeah,
I talked to many people.
352
00:19:47,886 --> 00:19:49,521
The UC
Berkley bookshop.
353
00:19:49,521 --> 00:19:51,390
-You were there?
-[BeYeah.
354
00:19:51,390 --> 00:19:52,925
[JK] That Berkley meeting
really changed me.
355
00:19:52,925 --> 00:19:55,961
[Ben] So I first met JK
in a small meeting
356
00:19:55,961 --> 00:19:57,796
run by Jennifer Doudna,
357
00:19:57,796 --> 00:20:00,666
one of the co-inventors
of CRISPR Cas-9 gene editing.
358
00:20:00,666 --> 00:20:06,638
And she decided that because
JK was editing human embryos,
359
00:20:06,638 --> 00:20:09,208
he ought to be included
in that conversation.
360
00:20:09,208 --> 00:20:12,511
Every embryo will develop
multiple cells stage
361
00:20:12,511 --> 00:20:15,214
and then I get this...
362
00:20:15,214 --> 00:20:18,984
And yes, I've got CRISPR,
so I moved to United Kingdom.
363
00:20:18,984 --> 00:20:20,719
[woman] Thank you
for a great talk.
364
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,489
[applause]
365
00:20:24,489 --> 00:20:26,992
[Ben] And that meeting
included luminaries
366
00:20:26,992 --> 00:20:28,460
from the field.
367
00:20:29,461 --> 00:20:31,697
JK was brought
into an inner circle
368
00:20:31,697 --> 00:20:33,999
of people
who were at the vanguard
369
00:20:33,999 --> 00:20:36,768
of the area that
he was trying to break into.
370
00:20:36,768 --> 00:20:39,004
[JK] That Berkley meeting
that was the one
371
00:20:39,004 --> 00:20:41,540
influenced George Church.
372
00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:44,476
[Ben] And at that meeting,
George listed
373
00:20:44,476 --> 00:20:47,246
a number of rare
genetic variants.
374
00:20:47,246 --> 00:20:49,715
[George] For example,
LRP5 is a gene
375
00:20:49,715 --> 00:20:51,917
that makes your bones
much stronger
376
00:20:51,917 --> 00:20:53,719
and you can make it so it--
377
00:20:53,719 --> 00:20:55,387
they're almost unbreakable.
378
00:20:55,387 --> 00:20:58,490
Genes that improve
your muscle performance,
379
00:20:58,490 --> 00:21:00,025
with less exercise.
380
00:21:00,025 --> 00:21:02,494
[Ben] The sorts of
worthwhile targets
381
00:21:02,494 --> 00:21:06,598
that are not just about
fixing a disease-causing gene,
382
00:21:06,598 --> 00:21:10,602
but are about
making people better.
383
00:21:10,602 --> 00:21:14,806
[JK] They have a
slide [indistinct]
384
00:21:14,806 --> 00:21:17,943
[indistinct]
385
00:21:20,512 --> 00:21:22,481
[George]
Like CCR five is resistant
386
00:21:22,481 --> 00:21:24,549
to HIV.
387
00:21:25,917 --> 00:21:27,486
The list goes on,
388
00:21:27,486 --> 00:21:29,054
there's about 40 of them
at this point.
389
00:21:29,054 --> 00:21:34,626
[JK] [indistinct]
390
00:21:35,394 --> 00:21:36,962
[Ben] JK also talked
391
00:21:36,962 --> 00:21:39,031
to a number of
prominent scientists
392
00:21:39,031 --> 00:21:41,733
and ethicists,
including James Watson,
393
00:21:41,733 --> 00:21:44,536
one of the discoverers
of the structure of DNA.
394
00:21:44,536 --> 00:21:46,538
JK went up to this
395
00:21:46,538 --> 00:21:50,742
towering figure
in molecular biology...
396
00:21:52,511 --> 00:21:54,479
and asked him some questions.
397
00:21:54,479 --> 00:21:56,648
And Watson, apparently,
398
00:21:56,648 --> 00:21:59,384
couldn't make out
what JK was asking
399
00:21:59,384 --> 00:22:01,053
through his thick accent.
400
00:22:01,053 --> 00:22:03,622
[JK] Probably my English
because he's quite old
401
00:22:03,622 --> 00:22:05,590
and cannot hear very well.
402
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:08,560
So I had to write down
my question, and, uh...
403
00:22:10,829 --> 00:22:12,531
[Ben] The first one was,
404
00:22:12,531 --> 00:22:14,933
"When you discovered
the structure of DNA,
405
00:22:14,933 --> 00:22:17,069
did you anticipate,
that one day
406
00:22:17,069 --> 00:22:19,905
we would change human DNA?
407
00:22:19,905 --> 00:22:23,342
That we would genetically
engineer people?"
408
00:22:23,342 --> 00:22:25,344
[JK] He just gave
a short answer, "yes."
409
00:22:25,344 --> 00:22:28,013
[Ben] The other question
he asked was,
410
00:22:28,013 --> 00:22:30,749
"Do you think that
that's a good thing to do?"
411
00:22:30,749 --> 00:22:34,753
[JK] And then he-- he just
gave me three words...
412
00:22:35,854 --> 00:22:37,389
"Make people better."
413
00:22:37,389 --> 00:22:38,724
[Ben] Make people better.
414
00:22:40,726 --> 00:22:42,527
[JK] Make people better.
415
00:22:46,365 --> 00:22:48,567
[BeSo, you posted
his answer in your lab,
416
00:22:48,567 --> 00:22:50,502
because it was encouraging.
417
00:22:51,069 --> 00:22:52,938
[JK] It is.
418
00:22:52,938 --> 00:22:54,606
[Ben] Because
James Watson is a big deal.
419
00:22:54,606 --> 00:22:55,974
He's an important person.
420
00:22:55,974 --> 00:22:57,743
[JK] That gave me the courage
421
00:22:57,743 --> 00:23:01,113
to, uh, be the person
to break glass.
422
00:23:03,048 --> 00:23:07,486
This technology,
it could benefit society.
423
00:23:07,486 --> 00:23:10,021
It's an angle
and they help people.
424
00:23:10,889 --> 00:23:15,727
So, [indistinct].
425
00:23:15,727 --> 00:23:20,432
♪
426
00:23:31,843 --> 00:23:33,712
[Ben] The experiment
is snipping out
427
00:23:33,712 --> 00:23:36,882
the section of this gene, CCR5,
428
00:23:36,882 --> 00:23:39,785
in order to confer
the immunity to HIV.
429
00:23:39,785 --> 00:23:41,920
So, JK chose this target
430
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,456
because it seemed
reasonably safe.
431
00:23:44,456 --> 00:23:46,024
At least, that was his theory.
432
00:23:49,561 --> 00:23:50,695
[BeSo, what could happen
433
00:23:50,695 --> 00:23:52,164
from the investigation?
434
00:23:55,834 --> 00:23:57,135
[JK] I-- I really don't know
435
00:23:57,135 --> 00:23:58,837
about anything that happened.
436
00:23:58,837 --> 00:24:00,105
[indistinct]
437
00:24:00,105 --> 00:24:02,007
[Ben] In China, there's, like,
438
00:24:02,007 --> 00:24:03,508
a lot of subtext about things
439
00:24:03,508 --> 00:24:05,010
that people actually don't say,
440
00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:06,645
and actually
don't want printed,
441
00:24:06,645 --> 00:24:08,847
because they're dangerous
to people.
442
00:24:08,847 --> 00:24:10,749
It's like it's better
if people don't know,
443
00:24:10,749 --> 00:24:13,618
because it doesn't give
anybody a bad idea.
444
00:24:13,618 --> 00:24:16,054
[JK] But that could be
controversial.
445
00:24:16,054 --> 00:24:17,656
[Ben] Mm-hmm.
446
00:24:17,656 --> 00:24:19,591
[JK]
But I didn't expect that...
447
00:24:19,591 --> 00:24:24,663
so much [indistinct] and so
strong of the media.
448
00:24:24,663 --> 00:24:27,866
I don't want to repeat
the mistake of
449
00:24:27,866 --> 00:24:31,169
genetic modify
the-- the GMO.
450
00:24:31,169 --> 00:24:33,905
I don't want
repeat the tragedy.
451
00:24:33,905 --> 00:24:35,106
[news anchor]
Two million people,
452
00:24:35,106 --> 00:24:36,808
in 436 cities,
453
00:24:36,808 --> 00:24:38,743
in 52 countries.
454
00:24:38,743 --> 00:24:41,780
Their protest 100% focused on
455
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:45,016
genetically modified organisms
or GMO's.
456
00:24:45,016 --> 00:24:48,119
[Ben] Many people
in the scientific community
457
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,855
tell themselves about
458
00:24:49,855 --> 00:24:51,656
a kind of botched rollout
of the technology,
459
00:24:51,656 --> 00:24:53,258
where there's no problem
with the technology.
460
00:24:53,258 --> 00:24:55,026
The problem is with a public
461
00:24:55,026 --> 00:24:57,262
that isn't yet prepared enough
462
00:24:57,262 --> 00:24:59,564
to be receptive
to the technology.
463
00:24:59,564 --> 00:25:02,133
And therefore, you have to
carefully manage the rollout,
464
00:25:02,133 --> 00:25:05,670
to educate the public,
to bring the public on board.
465
00:25:06,705 --> 00:25:08,039
So, JK looked to the example
466
00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:10,509
of genetically modified foods.
467
00:25:10,509 --> 00:25:12,177
-[woman] I pledge...
-[all] I pledge...
468
00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:14,179
[woman] ...to stop buying GMO's
469
00:25:14,179 --> 00:25:16,181
[all] ...to stop buying GMO's.
470
00:25:16,181 --> 00:25:20,018
[JK] Forty years ago,
scientists did naively think
471
00:25:20,018 --> 00:25:21,987
they did something good,
472
00:25:21,987 --> 00:25:24,122
and the people would be happy
and instead is not.
473
00:25:24,122 --> 00:25:26,658
There's a gap between
the scientists
474
00:25:26,658 --> 00:25:29,060
and the general public.
475
00:25:29,060 --> 00:25:31,796
That is, the general public
476
00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:33,999
is in--
some false information.
477
00:25:33,999 --> 00:25:38,036
And the government, uh,
[indistinct].
478
00:25:39,704 --> 00:25:41,206
One story I was told,
479
00:25:41,206 --> 00:25:42,841
while I was in China
asking about, you know,
480
00:25:42,841 --> 00:25:44,576
would anybody make
a CRISPR baby,
481
00:25:44,576 --> 00:25:46,211
they brought up
the case of the former head
482
00:25:46,211 --> 00:25:47,812
of China's FDA.
483
00:25:47,812 --> 00:25:49,247
Who was convicted
484
00:25:49,247 --> 00:25:51,583
in an influence-peddling
scheme,
485
00:25:51,583 --> 00:25:52,951
and then taken
out of the courtroom,
486
00:25:52,951 --> 00:25:55,153
and immediately
shot in the head.
487
00:25:56,655 --> 00:25:59,958
Literally shot dead
by the state
488
00:25:59,958 --> 00:26:01,593
for breaking the rules.
489
00:26:01,593 --> 00:26:03,695
And it's often unclear in China
490
00:26:03,695 --> 00:26:04,896
what the rules are.
491
00:26:04,896 --> 00:26:07,832
[Ben] So,
JK was really worried about
492
00:26:07,832 --> 00:26:10,235
controlling public perceptions.
493
00:26:10,235 --> 00:26:13,004
[JK] This is why I hired
494
00:26:13,004 --> 00:26:15,173
a PR person, Ryan, to my team.
495
00:26:15,173 --> 00:26:17,275
-[Ben] Yeah.
-[JK] Would you agree to meet?
496
00:26:17,275 --> 00:26:19,010
[BeYeah, I'd be happy--
I'd be happy to talk to him.
497
00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:20,579
[JK] He has-- Okay. Yeah.
498
00:26:20,579 --> 00:26:22,847
-[crowd shouting]
-[gavel bangs]
499
00:26:24,249 --> 00:26:27,686
[water sloshing]
500
00:26:33,224 --> 00:26:35,727
[dialing on phone]
501
00:26:36,361 --> 00:26:38,697
[dial tone rings]
502
00:26:41,633 --> 00:26:43,868
-[line clicks]
-[Ben] Hey, Ryan.
503
00:26:43,868 --> 00:26:45,704
So, first of all,
thanks for letting me
504
00:26:45,704 --> 00:26:47,606
-record this call.
-[Ryan] Sure.
505
00:26:47,606 --> 00:26:51,076
[Ben] Uh, so, JK said
that you could fill in
506
00:26:51,076 --> 00:26:53,011
-some of the blanks here.
-[Ryan] Okay.
507
00:26:53,011 --> 00:26:54,613
So, one of the reasons
508
00:26:54,613 --> 00:26:57,148
why I'm okay working with you,
509
00:26:57,148 --> 00:26:59,684
is JK 's trust
is already placed in you.
510
00:26:59,684 --> 00:27:01,319
[Ben] Okay, so,
just for the record,
511
00:27:01,319 --> 00:27:04,022
you want to keep
your identity obscured,
512
00:27:04,022 --> 00:27:05,390
because, you know,
513
00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:06,758
this is pretty
sensitive stuff.
514
00:27:06,758 --> 00:27:08,326
[Ryan] Correct, yes.
515
00:27:08,326 --> 00:27:10,228
The sensitive
stuff will be about
516
00:27:10,228 --> 00:27:12,297
who in the Chinese government
supported it.
517
00:27:12,297 --> 00:27:16,067
I'm picking a very direct
fight with Beijing.
518
00:27:16,067 --> 00:27:17,936
But I think I owe it to him,
519
00:27:17,936 --> 00:27:19,971
given that, right now,
I think the situation,
520
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:22,173
is actually
deadly serious for him.
521
00:27:22,173 --> 00:27:23,775
Death penalty
could be on the menu.
522
00:27:24,976 --> 00:27:26,177
So, me doing this is...
523
00:27:27,712 --> 00:27:29,347
sort of the last move
that I wanted to do.
524
00:27:29,347 --> 00:27:30,915
but I'm not sure that...
525
00:27:32,283 --> 00:27:33,952
I'm not sure that
there's another option.
526
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,188
[Ben] Hey,
will you check Ryan's beard?
527
00:27:37,188 --> 00:27:39,290
-I think it's coming unglued.
-[Ryan] Mustache?
528
00:27:39,290 --> 00:27:40,425
[man] He said the beard.
529
00:27:41,793 --> 00:27:46,998
[tense instrumental plays]
530
00:27:52,437 --> 00:27:54,406
[Ryan] JK 's actual arrest...
531
00:27:54,406 --> 00:27:58,443
was not for any
medical malpractice,
532
00:27:58,443 --> 00:28:02,013
but on a state security charge.
533
00:28:02,013 --> 00:28:04,716
That was a much more
serious situation
534
00:28:04,716 --> 00:28:07,352
for the lab and for JK.
535
00:28:07,352 --> 00:28:09,921
From then on,
it's largely a black box.
536
00:28:09,921 --> 00:28:11,156
Again, I don't know...
537
00:28:11,156 --> 00:28:14,926
you know, all these
communications are monitored.
538
00:28:14,926 --> 00:28:17,262
Are things
being purposely planted?
539
00:28:17,262 --> 00:28:19,431
Is their government
trying to manipulate opinion
540
00:28:19,431 --> 00:28:22,133
to show that
it's America's fault?
541
00:28:22,133 --> 00:28:24,135
And people who are silent,
you know,
542
00:28:24,135 --> 00:28:26,871
I wonder, are those people
being manipulated, too?
543
00:28:26,871 --> 00:28:28,840
Because you haven't spoken out
544
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,041
about what you knew when.
545
00:28:30,041 --> 00:28:32,143
And those people
can be in important positions
546
00:28:32,143 --> 00:28:33,278
in different biotechs.
547
00:28:33,278 --> 00:28:35,780
[restaurant din]
548
00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:38,116
Several local
549
00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:39,884
and national
government officials
550
00:28:39,884 --> 00:28:42,153
knew about the trial
and gave it the go-ahead.
551
00:28:45,123 --> 00:28:47,492
It's not a full approval
by the government.
552
00:28:47,492 --> 00:28:49,961
That's a component
of the government saying,
553
00:28:49,961 --> 00:28:51,362
"We will support you...
554
00:28:51,362 --> 00:28:54,733
if there's a c--
X amount of controversy.
555
00:28:54,733 --> 00:28:56,000
But if there's too much...
556
00:28:56,735 --> 00:28:58,036
that's your fault.
557
00:28:58,036 --> 00:29:00,505
He started to get this feeling
558
00:29:00,505 --> 00:29:03,174
that there was a public opinion
559
00:29:03,174 --> 00:29:04,976
and there was
a private opinion.
560
00:29:04,976 --> 00:29:08,113
And he felt like
he was tapping into the truth
561
00:29:08,113 --> 00:29:09,314
in private.
562
00:29:10,381 --> 00:29:12,050
And that, I think,
563
00:29:12,050 --> 00:29:15,353
let him interpret
a go signal before...
564
00:29:15,353 --> 00:29:19,424
that was really ready
for prime time.
565
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:23,528
And so, for him,
566
00:29:23,528 --> 00:29:26,097
the risk was tied to...
567
00:29:27,265 --> 00:29:28,867
what the outcome would be
568
00:29:28,867 --> 00:29:31,069
for these children
and their safety.
569
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:33,905
Gene editing for human--
570
00:29:33,905 --> 00:29:36,474
we should do this kept slow
and with caution.
571
00:29:36,474 --> 00:29:38,176
[Ryan]
When you do gene editing,
572
00:29:38,176 --> 00:29:39,811
it's, essentially,
it's a robot surgery.
573
00:29:39,811 --> 00:29:41,179
You're-- you're hoping that
574
00:29:41,179 --> 00:29:43,448
these knives
that go into someone
575
00:29:43,448 --> 00:29:45,083
and that these cells
are going to do
576
00:29:45,083 --> 00:29:46,885
what you ask them to do.
577
00:29:46,885 --> 00:29:48,486
But sometimes they can cut
too much, too little,
578
00:29:48,486 --> 00:29:50,388
and in the wrong place
and at the wrong way.
579
00:29:50,388 --> 00:29:52,223
Just like any surgery would be.
580
00:29:52,223 --> 00:29:54,425
A single case of failure
581
00:29:54,425 --> 00:29:56,928
will kill the entire field.
582
00:29:56,928 --> 00:29:59,063
Just like Jesse Gelsinger
583
00:29:59,063 --> 00:30:01,232
for the gene therapy.
584
00:30:01,232 --> 00:30:04,269
The case of 18-year-old
Jesse Gelsinger.
585
00:30:04,269 --> 00:30:05,970
He died in December,
586
00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:07,872
after undergoing
experimental treatment
587
00:30:07,872 --> 00:30:09,440
for a rare liver disease.
588
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,976
Less than 24 hours
after they injected Jesse
589
00:30:11,976 --> 00:30:13,511
with the [indistinct],
in an amount
590
00:30:13,511 --> 00:30:16,014
only one other person
had ever been given.
591
00:30:16,014 --> 00:30:19,484
Jesse's entire body
began reacting adversely.
592
00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:21,386
And went into a coma
593
00:30:21,386 --> 00:30:22,954
before I could get
to Philadelphia
594
00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:24,389
and see him,
595
00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:27,292
and died two days
after my arrival,
596
00:30:27,292 --> 00:30:28,827
directly as a result
597
00:30:28,827 --> 00:30:30,461
of that gene therapy
experiment.
598
00:30:30,461 --> 00:30:32,463
Jesse relied on my judgment
599
00:30:32,463 --> 00:30:34,899
in participating
in this clinical trial.
600
00:30:34,899 --> 00:30:37,168
And I trusted this
to be a well-controlled
601
00:30:37,168 --> 00:30:38,903
and purely ethical effort.
602
00:30:40,271 --> 00:30:42,073
[Ryan] I think
when JK referenced Jesse,
603
00:30:42,073 --> 00:30:44,175
he knew that his own future
604
00:30:44,175 --> 00:30:46,511
would be tied
to the amount of controversy
605
00:30:46,511 --> 00:30:48,213
about his work.
606
00:30:48,213 --> 00:30:50,348
Gene therapy
is an experimental procedure.
607
00:30:50,348 --> 00:30:51,950
One whose effectiveness
608
00:30:51,950 --> 00:30:54,519
has not yet been demonstrated.
609
00:30:54,519 --> 00:30:57,355
But it does offer real hope
610
00:30:57,355 --> 00:30:59,023
and real promise
for those people
611
00:30:59,023 --> 00:31:01,192
who are suffering
from genetic diseases.
612
00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:04,262
As someone who's got a sister
613
00:31:04,262 --> 00:31:06,931
who has an inherited disease,
614
00:31:06,931 --> 00:31:11,402
and who's ready to participate
in trials like that...
615
00:31:11,402 --> 00:31:13,137
[woman behind camera]
That's very nice, Ryan.
616
00:31:13,137 --> 00:31:14,472
[Ryan] I wanted to make sure
617
00:31:14,472 --> 00:31:16,875
that this was going to be safe
618
00:31:16,875 --> 00:31:18,977
to do with more people.
619
00:31:19,978 --> 00:31:21,946
Mom, I got one of yours.
620
00:31:21,946 --> 00:31:23,281
[Ryan's sister babbles]
621
00:31:23,281 --> 00:31:27,051
[Ryan] And so,
I reached out to JK.
622
00:31:27,051 --> 00:31:29,254
-[RyaHey, JK.
-[JK] Hey, Ryan.
623
00:31:29,254 --> 00:31:31,089
[Ryan] You know,
for my own family,
624
00:31:31,089 --> 00:31:32,590
with my sister's disease--
625
00:31:32,590 --> 00:31:34,125
it's chronic
regional pain syndrome.
626
00:31:34,125 --> 00:31:35,660
Pain levels are above
627
00:31:35,660 --> 00:31:37,495
unprepared childbirth
and amputation.
628
00:31:37,495 --> 00:31:39,464
It's known
as the "suicide disease."
629
00:31:39,464 --> 00:31:41,032
[Ryan's mom]
Okay, let's keep these--
630
00:31:41,032 --> 00:31:42,600
[Ryan's sister yells]
631
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,235
[Ryan's mom]
Okay, let's just keep these
632
00:31:44,235 --> 00:31:45,904
eggs in here, okay?
633
00:31:45,904 --> 00:31:50,575
That became
why I became involved.
634
00:31:50,575 --> 00:31:55,079
So I went and met JK
in early November.
635
00:31:56,247 --> 00:31:57,582
And that's how
I got to know him.
636
00:31:57,582 --> 00:32:01,286
[birds chirping]
637
00:32:02,987 --> 00:32:05,356
He grew up quite poor.
638
00:32:06,324 --> 00:32:07,692
Farming family.
639
00:32:07,692 --> 00:32:11,162
He worked in rice fields
in the summers.
640
00:32:13,131 --> 00:32:16,367
His wife now,
he met in high school,
641
00:32:16,367 --> 00:32:19,237
and was too scared to ask out,
because he thought
642
00:32:19,237 --> 00:32:21,406
because her family
owned a restaurant,
643
00:32:21,406 --> 00:32:24,375
she would be too rich
and not consider him.
644
00:32:25,944 --> 00:32:28,713
JK was then able
to study at Rice
645
00:32:28,713 --> 00:32:30,214
and then Stanford.
646
00:32:31,582 --> 00:32:34,085
[Ben] So, JK absorbed
647
00:32:34,085 --> 00:32:36,554
a certain kind of hero story.
648
00:32:36,554 --> 00:32:39,157
Heroic,
boundary-pushing science.
649
00:32:39,157 --> 00:32:42,393
Like Robert Edwards
and Patrick Steptoe,
650
00:32:42,393 --> 00:32:45,663
who, in secret,
developed a new technology
651
00:32:45,663 --> 00:32:48,166
for making babies
in the laboratory.
652
00:32:48,166 --> 00:32:49,534
[Steptoe] This technique
653
00:32:49,534 --> 00:32:52,070
is still
in its beginning phases.
654
00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:54,038
And there are some problems
655
00:32:54,038 --> 00:32:55,740
remaining to be solved.
656
00:32:55,740 --> 00:32:57,308
[Ben] Cowboy now...
657
00:32:58,242 --> 00:32:59,644
Nobel laureate later.
658
00:33:01,312 --> 00:33:03,281
He was wanting to
write his own story
659
00:33:03,281 --> 00:33:04,515
in that image.
660
00:33:04,515 --> 00:33:05,717
But it is hoped,
661
00:33:05,717 --> 00:33:07,685
that centers will be set up,
662
00:33:07,685 --> 00:33:10,221
where people
have been properly trained.
663
00:33:10,221 --> 00:33:13,391
And this technique
will become available
664
00:33:13,391 --> 00:33:15,560
to many women
all over the world.
665
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:21,065
[tense instrumental plays]
666
00:33:21,065 --> 00:33:22,734
When he went back to China,
he went back
667
00:33:22,734 --> 00:33:24,469
into the Thousand Talents
program.
668
00:33:24,469 --> 00:33:28,773
Which was designed
to bring academics back
669
00:33:28,773 --> 00:33:30,475
from the United States,
670
00:33:30,475 --> 00:33:32,610
to create
the culture of spin-offs,
671
00:33:32,610 --> 00:33:34,345
but also drawing
an economic benefit
672
00:33:34,345 --> 00:33:35,646
for the country.
673
00:33:35,646 --> 00:33:39,150
[speaking Chinese]
674
00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:43,421
[man speaking Chinese]
675
00:33:43,421 --> 00:33:47,058
[crowd applauds]
676
00:33:47,058 --> 00:33:53,064
[speaks Chinese]
677
00:34:14,185 --> 00:34:16,120
[crowd applauds]
678
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,356
[Ben] What sort of
conversations did you have?
679
00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:20,558
Why did you think
that the Chinese government
680
00:34:20,558 --> 00:34:21,826
would be positive?
681
00:34:21,826 --> 00:34:24,195
[JK] Because twenty years ago,
682
00:34:24,195 --> 00:34:26,431
[indistinct] infecting them.
683
00:34:26,431 --> 00:34:28,466
30% of
people infected with HIV.
684
00:34:28,466 --> 00:34:30,168
It's embarrassing
685
00:34:30,168 --> 00:34:32,103
to the national,
you know, reputation.
686
00:34:32,103 --> 00:34:33,337
[Ben] Hmm.
687
00:34:38,209 --> 00:34:40,144
[news anchor]
Hunan province health workers
688
00:34:40,144 --> 00:34:43,247
apparently collected blood
from poor villagers,
689
00:34:43,247 --> 00:34:44,849
using dirty needles.
690
00:34:44,849 --> 00:34:48,486
The scandal infected
more than 100,000 people
691
00:34:48,486 --> 00:34:51,322
and killed at least 10,000.
692
00:34:51,322 --> 00:34:53,224
The Chinese government
has taken
693
00:34:53,224 --> 00:34:56,127
a more active
and open stance on AIDS
694
00:34:56,127 --> 00:34:57,428
in recent years.
695
00:34:57,428 --> 00:34:59,764
This is [indistinct].
696
00:34:59,764 --> 00:35:02,366
While not applicable to the
general public,
697
00:35:02,366 --> 00:35:04,435
it may be valuable to help...
698
00:35:05,136 --> 00:35:06,370
a few affected,
699
00:35:06,370 --> 00:35:08,339
and very high-risk families.
700
00:35:08,339 --> 00:35:12,243
Protect their children
from the same fate.
701
00:35:12,243 --> 00:35:16,481
[Ryan] JK had influential
figures in government
702
00:35:16,481 --> 00:35:17,815
being supportive.
703
00:35:17,815 --> 00:35:22,887
And so, he felt protected
by the government.
704
00:35:22,887 --> 00:35:25,223
[JK] The-- the-- okay,
the Chinese Government
705
00:35:25,223 --> 00:35:27,892
wants to do something
with breakthroughs.
706
00:35:27,892 --> 00:35:29,760
But why?
707
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,530
[indistinct],
the society must be stable.
708
00:35:32,530 --> 00:35:34,265
[Ben] Society must be stable.
709
00:35:34,265 --> 00:35:36,167
-[JYeah.
-[crowd applauds]
710
00:35:36,901 --> 00:35:38,336
[JK] Hey, Ryan.
711
00:35:38,336 --> 00:35:41,272
I just talked to Dr. Jun Yu
712
00:35:41,272 --> 00:35:43,708
from Chinese Academy
of Science.
713
00:35:43,708 --> 00:35:46,511
Very influential
genomic centers in China,
714
00:35:46,511 --> 00:35:48,279
and also well-known
in the world.
715
00:35:48,279 --> 00:35:50,681
Is very supportive
of what we're doing.
716
00:35:50,681 --> 00:35:53,918
I think people should try
to understand
717
00:35:53,918 --> 00:35:55,586
this particular technology.
718
00:35:55,586 --> 00:35:56,921
What's the power of it?
719
00:35:56,921 --> 00:35:59,257
What we can benefit from it.
720
00:35:59,257 --> 00:36:02,527
Uh, we need to certainly, uh,
721
00:36:02,527 --> 00:36:05,830
prevent abuse
of this particular technology.
722
00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:07,865
But promoting it
is more important.
723
00:36:07,865 --> 00:36:09,867
Well, they explicitly told him
724
00:36:09,867 --> 00:36:12,837
that, "Your outcome
would depend upon...
725
00:36:13,871 --> 00:36:15,406
how much trouble
726
00:36:15,406 --> 00:36:16,807
this would cause
for the government.
727
00:36:16,807 --> 00:36:18,176
If it's a lot of trouble...
728
00:36:18,176 --> 00:36:21,312
then you're going to
take the fall.
729
00:36:21,312 --> 00:36:24,215
-[crowd yelling]
-[gavel bangs]
730
00:36:24,215 --> 00:36:26,284
[birds chirping]
731
00:36:34,225 --> 00:36:35,826
[Ben] So, girls,
remember, we were talking
732
00:36:35,826 --> 00:36:36,961
about the idea that...
733
00:36:37,728 --> 00:36:39,664
people could change
734
00:36:39,664 --> 00:36:41,499
the genes of their children?
735
00:36:41,499 --> 00:36:45,403
Well, this is a video
of the babies,
736
00:36:45,403 --> 00:36:46,604
they're twins.
737
00:36:47,738 --> 00:36:50,741
Growing in their mom's womb.
738
00:36:51,876 --> 00:36:52,977
Do you see them?
739
00:36:52,977 --> 00:36:55,580
Do you see
the hand there, Tessie?
740
00:36:56,414 --> 00:36:57,748
And the two heads?
741
00:36:57,748 --> 00:37:00,384
Look, do you see
the little fingers?
742
00:37:05,456 --> 00:37:07,925
When I look at this,
I see people.
743
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,461
Little people in the making.
744
00:37:10,461 --> 00:37:12,630
But I also see an experiment.
745
00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:15,366
[Tessie clears her throat]
Are they fighting?
746
00:37:15,366 --> 00:37:17,368
'Cause they're, like,
kicking each other.
747
00:37:17,368 --> 00:37:18,903
[Tessie's sister]
Siblings in the womb
748
00:37:18,903 --> 00:37:21,005
already starting
to hit each other. [laughs]
749
00:37:21,005 --> 00:37:22,607
[Ben] Can you see
the little leg?
750
00:37:22,607 --> 00:37:25,009
[Tessie's sister] It looks--
does that look familiar?
751
00:37:26,677 --> 00:37:28,012
[Ben] Just a little hand.
752
00:37:29,247 --> 00:37:30,481
Two little babies.
753
00:37:31,616 --> 00:37:33,818
I'm glad they have each other,
754
00:37:33,818 --> 00:37:36,721
because you have someone
to talk about it with.
755
00:37:36,721 --> 00:37:39,724
Like, nobody else in the world
has had this experience.
756
00:37:39,724 --> 00:37:42,927
But, at least, they get to
talk to each other about it.
757
00:37:44,762 --> 00:37:49,467
[heartbeats thumping]
758
00:37:53,738 --> 00:37:56,574
[Ben] I remember,
we had a meeting one day,
759
00:37:56,574 --> 00:37:58,276
where JK was present.
760
00:37:58,276 --> 00:38:00,444
One of the very senior people
in the room,
761
00:38:00,444 --> 00:38:01,879
making a comment
762
00:38:01,879 --> 00:38:04,282
about how germline editing
763
00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,917
may not work perfectly
at first,
764
00:38:06,917 --> 00:38:09,720
and it's going to require
some debugging.
765
00:38:13,691 --> 00:38:15,793
But each of those versions
are children.
766
00:38:18,429 --> 00:38:20,364
Who you're bringing into being
767
00:38:20,364 --> 00:38:21,766
as an experiment.
768
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,536
And the idea
that the experiment
769
00:38:25,536 --> 00:38:28,806
justifies creating people
in order to work it out
770
00:38:28,806 --> 00:38:31,642
is, to me,
an unbelievable sensibility.
771
00:38:31,642 --> 00:38:34,712
And yet, it's floating around
772
00:38:34,712 --> 00:38:36,647
as a reasonable sensibility.
773
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:48,326
[Ryan] I don't know
how he proceeded
774
00:38:48,326 --> 00:38:50,995
to try
to shut things down.
775
00:38:51,696 --> 00:38:53,064
Because I don't know
776
00:38:53,064 --> 00:38:54,465
if I would have had
the stomach
777
00:38:54,465 --> 00:38:55,566
for what could have happened.
778
00:38:55,566 --> 00:38:57,401
I mean, would I,
779
00:38:57,401 --> 00:38:59,103
in trying to do good,
780
00:38:59,103 --> 00:39:00,671
actually--
781
00:39:00,671 --> 00:39:02,506
you know,
China has a history
782
00:39:02,506 --> 00:39:04,742
of forced abortions.
783
00:39:04,742 --> 00:39:07,378
[voice breaking]
Would I have led to that?
784
00:39:07,378 --> 00:39:09,113
And thankfully,
there was no risk
785
00:39:09,113 --> 00:39:10,481
to that child,
786
00:39:10,481 --> 00:39:11,682
in the end.
787
00:39:16,554 --> 00:39:19,423
[traffic din]
788
00:39:19,423 --> 00:39:24,028
[suspenseful music plays]
789
00:39:30,968 --> 00:39:33,771
[Antonio] Secrets
are hard to keep, right?
790
00:39:34,705 --> 00:39:35,973
Very hard to keep.
791
00:39:37,074 --> 00:39:40,010
So, I was able
792
00:39:40,010 --> 00:39:42,012
to meet with,
or interview
793
00:39:42,012 --> 00:39:45,416
five groups
doing embryo editing.
794
00:39:46,384 --> 00:39:48,419
They were telling me answers,
795
00:39:48,419 --> 00:39:50,588
but they were not telling me
796
00:39:50,588 --> 00:39:51,922
everything that they knew.
797
00:39:51,922 --> 00:39:53,824
Because
it is an international
798
00:39:53,824 --> 00:39:56,861
uh, conflict--
con-- conflict.
799
00:39:56,861 --> 00:39:58,162
International competition.
800
00:39:58,696 --> 00:40:00,164
It's true.
801
00:40:00,164 --> 00:40:01,766
So every hour counts,
every day counts.
802
00:40:01,766 --> 00:40:03,067
Yes. Yes.
803
00:40:03,067 --> 00:40:06,470
And the opinion of all
the scientists that I spoke to
804
00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:09,573
was that
it was not the right time.
805
00:40:09,573 --> 00:40:11,442
To politics.
806
00:40:11,442 --> 00:40:13,077
That the government
was concerned
807
00:40:13,077 --> 00:40:14,812
about bad publicity...
808
00:40:14,812 --> 00:40:18,516
that they should do
everything up to...
809
00:40:19,450 --> 00:40:20,851
transfer the embryo.
810
00:40:23,053 --> 00:40:25,122
I talked
to a guy named JK,
811
00:40:25,122 --> 00:40:28,025
because of a talk
that JK gave
812
00:40:28,025 --> 00:40:30,060
in 2017.
813
00:40:30,060 --> 00:40:31,562
Every embryo,
814
00:40:31,562 --> 00:40:33,464
it develop
multiple cell stage.
815
00:40:33,464 --> 00:40:35,099
-[woman] Oh, I see.
-Then I get it.
816
00:40:35,099 --> 00:40:36,901
[Antonio] His name is JK,
is that it?
817
00:40:36,901 --> 00:40:38,636
He.
It's professor He.
818
00:40:38,636 --> 00:40:40,538
-[Antonio] It's JK He.
-JK He.
819
00:40:40,538 --> 00:40:42,072
[Antonio] The case
that they presented
820
00:40:42,072 --> 00:40:44,708
is the largest
research program in China
821
00:40:44,708 --> 00:40:46,610
with what sounds like,
you know, plans
822
00:40:46,610 --> 00:40:48,846
to advance to babies--
823
00:40:48,846 --> 00:40:49,980
"soon" was the answer?
824
00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:51,482
-Pretty soon?
-Right.
825
00:40:51,482 --> 00:40:53,150
It's an unsafe experiment.
826
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:55,219
It's literally unethical to do,
because you don't know
827
00:40:55,219 --> 00:40:56,821
what the outcome
for the child is.
828
00:40:56,821 --> 00:40:59,757
That was the strongest message
that I took from it.
829
00:40:59,757 --> 00:41:00,891
And also...
830
00:41:00,891 --> 00:41:05,596
that if their research
is accepted in the West
831
00:41:05,596 --> 00:41:07,631
and is on par
with what's in the West,
832
00:41:07,631 --> 00:41:08,999
it's going to be accepted
in China, too,
833
00:41:08,999 --> 00:41:10,835
by the Chinese government.
834
00:41:10,835 --> 00:41:13,504
They need to have
the scientific community on--
835
00:41:13,504 --> 00:41:15,840
and public--
on their backs.
836
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,741
Do you wanna
send him an email?
837
00:41:17,741 --> 00:41:19,577
Yes.
838
00:41:19,577 --> 00:41:22,580
[JK] Hey, Ryan.
Hey, I'm so happy! [chuckles]
839
00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:24,081
I just talked with them.
840
00:41:24,081 --> 00:41:26,116
Mark David--
and he's at Berkley,
841
00:41:26,116 --> 00:41:28,586
so they [indistinct] whole
data. The baby's pregnant
842
00:41:28,586 --> 00:41:30,988
and he thinks the--
the science is very good.
843
00:41:30,988 --> 00:41:32,656
I discussed with
[indistinct]
844
00:41:32,656 --> 00:41:34,225
he told me everything.
845
00:41:34,225 --> 00:41:36,760
He says
is okay with the FDA,
846
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,630
is okay with the research.
847
00:41:39,630 --> 00:41:41,632
So, we may have him
onboard.
848
00:41:41,632 --> 00:41:47,571
♪
849
00:41:51,542 --> 00:41:53,711
[speaking Chinese
on PA]
850
00:41:57,281 --> 00:41:59,783
[Ryan] When the mother
went into labor,
851
00:41:59,783 --> 00:42:01,785
I got a call from JK
852
00:42:01,785 --> 00:42:03,554
that he and a few other
members of the lab
853
00:42:03,554 --> 00:42:06,290
were going to fly
to where she was.
854
00:42:07,992 --> 00:42:10,928
[machines beeping]
855
00:42:10,928 --> 00:42:13,030
-[baby cries]
-[Ryan] I felt very numb.
856
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:16,133
This was a month earlier
than I thought,
857
00:42:16,133 --> 00:42:17,868
'cause they were born
prematurely.
858
00:42:25,943 --> 00:42:27,311
JK was pretty nervous
859
00:42:27,311 --> 00:42:29,847
until signs looked good,
860
00:42:29,847 --> 00:42:33,217
and the girls were put
into their incubators.
861
00:42:35,986 --> 00:42:38,155
The thing
that JK didn't realize,
862
00:42:38,155 --> 00:42:40,824
was that once you start,
863
00:42:40,824 --> 00:42:42,593
you may lose control.
864
00:42:44,795 --> 00:42:48,098
The disorder that we saw,
around Louise Brown's birth.
865
00:42:48,098 --> 00:42:50,634
The journalists were
so sensationalized over it.
866
00:42:50,634 --> 00:42:53,070
One of them
pulled a fire alarm
867
00:42:53,070 --> 00:42:54,672
to evacuate
a whole hospital
868
00:42:54,672 --> 00:42:56,040
in order to get
a picture of her mother
869
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,241
days before birth.
870
00:42:57,241 --> 00:42:59,310
Just the sheer lunacy of it.
871
00:43:00,578 --> 00:43:04,048
You have people
who are vulnerable.
872
00:43:04,048 --> 00:43:06,650
And we're very fearful
873
00:43:06,650 --> 00:43:09,153
that in an uproar situation,
874
00:43:09,153 --> 00:43:12,122
you know, what would ensure
the safety of those girls?
875
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,828
What's your responsibility
876
00:43:17,828 --> 00:43:19,363
to make sure
that their safety is okay?
877
00:43:19,363 --> 00:43:20,831
And those are people that...
878
00:43:20,831 --> 00:43:24,234
felt so afraid
of discrimination at home...
879
00:43:27,671 --> 00:43:29,840
because they're HIV positive.
880
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,709
That their family
didn't know,
881
00:43:31,709 --> 00:43:33,043
they thought they would be
disowned by their family.
882
00:43:34,078 --> 00:43:35,245
Uh...
883
00:43:36,814 --> 00:43:39,016
Two beautiful
little Chinese girls,
884
00:43:39,016 --> 00:43:41,318
named Lulu and NaNa,
885
00:43:41,318 --> 00:43:43,120
came crying
into the world,
886
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,956
as healthy
as any other babies,
887
00:43:45,956 --> 00:43:47,324
a few weeks ago.
888
00:43:47,324 --> 00:43:49,226
I understand my work...
889
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,195
will be controversial.
890
00:43:51,195 --> 00:43:55,265
But I believe families
need this technology.
891
00:43:55,265 --> 00:43:58,302
And I'm willing
to take the criticism...
892
00:43:59,103 --> 00:44:00,237
for them.
893
00:44:01,705 --> 00:44:04,975
[Ryan] JK was gunning
to try to publish.
894
00:44:04,975 --> 00:44:08,846
And the lab
and I were actively trying
895
00:44:08,846 --> 00:44:10,714
to push against that.
896
00:44:10,714 --> 00:44:13,283
Uh, either passively,
by just not getting work done,
897
00:44:13,283 --> 00:44:15,019
or it was--
898
00:44:15,019 --> 00:44:16,687
we were within hours,
at one point,
899
00:44:16,687 --> 00:44:19,690
of everyone
just simply quitting.
900
00:44:19,690 --> 00:44:22,226
[man] These babies
are stuck in one place.
901
00:44:22,226 --> 00:44:24,795
That-- anyone
can find these babies.
902
00:44:24,795 --> 00:44:26,997
A date will be announced.
903
00:44:28,799 --> 00:44:30,000
It's very dangerous.
904
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,969
[JK] Yes, it is.
905
00:44:31,969 --> 00:44:33,437
[maI mean, they should be
out of the hospital
906
00:44:33,437 --> 00:44:35,005
-before you announce.
-[JYes.
907
00:44:35,005 --> 00:44:36,373
[man] You know,
it's just...
908
00:44:36,373 --> 00:44:37,875
[Ryan]
Why is there such a rush?
909
00:44:37,875 --> 00:44:39,710
What--
how do you convince...
910
00:44:40,377 --> 00:44:42,079
JK to slow down?
911
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:45,883
[speaking Chinese]
912
00:44:55,092 --> 00:44:57,227
[Ryan] In today's age,
is it important
913
00:44:57,227 --> 00:44:59,229
that we know the instant of,
or is it important
914
00:44:59,229 --> 00:45:00,998
that we actually
understand something
915
00:45:00,998 --> 00:45:02,266
to make a better decision?
916
00:45:02,266 --> 00:45:04,802
I think the latter
is much more important.
917
00:45:04,802 --> 00:45:09,773
And so, for our last Hail Mary
was to convince JK
918
00:45:09,773 --> 00:45:12,176
to not submit
a paper to a journal,
919
00:45:12,176 --> 00:45:13,444
because that was the process
920
00:45:13,444 --> 00:45:14,712
that would kick
everything off
921
00:45:14,712 --> 00:45:16,080
and we didn't want that
to happen yet.
922
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,347
It was not time.
923
00:45:17,347 --> 00:45:18,982
Whether it veers
towards drama,
924
00:45:18,982 --> 00:45:20,751
or it veers
towards understanding.
925
00:45:20,751 --> 00:45:23,987
Governments wanting to
ban the research.
926
00:45:23,987 --> 00:45:25,089
Experimentation
927
00:45:25,089 --> 00:45:27,725
in human beings.
928
00:45:27,725 --> 00:45:29,393
[Ryan's mom]
That's very nice, Ryan.
929
00:45:29,393 --> 00:45:31,929
[Ryan] Understanding
what that could jeopardize.
930
00:45:33,497 --> 00:45:34,965
Um...
931
00:45:37,735 --> 00:45:39,903
That could be my sister,
on the other hand.
932
00:45:41,371 --> 00:45:44,141
I thought that
my relationship with JK
933
00:45:44,141 --> 00:45:45,476
was strong enough
934
00:45:45,476 --> 00:45:47,911
to be able
to push back on things.
935
00:45:49,279 --> 00:45:51,782
And that was
a stupid thought.
936
00:45:53,150 --> 00:45:56,286
Uh, I'd say we were pretty
disturbed by that.
937
00:45:56,286 --> 00:45:58,155
And, at that point,
938
00:45:58,155 --> 00:46:01,058
it was upon me
to allow the world
939
00:46:01,058 --> 00:46:04,528
to ease into this idea,
versus slapdash.
940
00:46:04,528 --> 00:46:06,930
I found something
on the Internet report.
941
00:46:06,930 --> 00:46:11,068
[tense music plays]
942
00:46:19,443 --> 00:46:21,178
[Antonio] I'm used to
working with documents.
943
00:46:22,946 --> 00:46:25,149
Phone calls, things
people say on the Internet.
944
00:46:25,149 --> 00:46:27,351
You know, there's just,
like, a ton of clues.
945
00:46:27,351 --> 00:46:29,119
It's a world of breadcrumbs.
946
00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:31,155
It's finding needles
in stacks of needles.
947
00:46:31,155 --> 00:46:32,489
I mean,
there's so much information.
948
00:46:32,489 --> 00:46:33,957
[keyboard clacking]
949
00:46:37,361 --> 00:46:40,097
[JK] People understand
that we are [indistinct].
950
00:46:40,097 --> 00:46:43,300
But I think it's time
to give them the black box.
951
00:46:43,300 --> 00:46:46,970
Most everything--
In English.
952
00:46:46,970 --> 00:46:48,472
[man]
So, you do that. Why--
953
00:46:48,472 --> 00:46:51,542
-[J[indistinct]?
-[maYeah.
954
00:46:51,542 --> 00:46:53,010
So, what happened then?
955
00:46:54,144 --> 00:46:56,246
[Antonio] I put
JK's name into Google,
956
00:46:56,246 --> 00:46:57,948
and there was four hits.
957
00:46:57,948 --> 00:47:01,351
And one of them was the Chinese
clinical trial site listing.
958
00:47:03,220 --> 00:47:05,889
The first thing I remember
my eye went to, it said cfDNA.
959
00:47:05,889 --> 00:47:07,925
That is the DNA
from a fetus
960
00:47:07,925 --> 00:47:09,293
when you're looking at it
961
00:47:09,293 --> 00:47:10,994
through the mother's
bloodstream.
962
00:47:10,994 --> 00:47:12,429
So that's when I really knew,
I was like,
963
00:47:12,429 --> 00:47:13,897
if they're measuring
cell-free DNA,
964
00:47:13,897 --> 00:47:15,032
there's a fetus.
965
00:47:15,032 --> 00:47:16,366
Those kids are born...
966
00:47:17,401 --> 00:47:21,004
terminated,
or about to be born.
967
00:47:21,004 --> 00:47:22,339
That's information we had.
968
00:47:24,608 --> 00:47:27,010
Some people would say,
"Don't publish the story now.
969
00:47:27,010 --> 00:47:28,345
Why don't you wait?"
970
00:47:28,345 --> 00:47:31,048
Wait for peer review.
Wait for this, wait for that.
971
00:47:31,048 --> 00:47:32,216
Wait, wait, wait.
972
00:47:33,350 --> 00:47:34,484
[exhales]
973
00:47:37,454 --> 00:47:38,589
Is it right?
974
00:47:38,589 --> 00:47:40,390
What if it's wrong?
975
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:41,992
If it's wrong,
you know...
976
00:47:44,628 --> 00:47:46,496
I'm fucked. [chuckles]
977
00:47:48,198 --> 00:47:50,367
I'm not gonna wait.
I gotta be first.
978
00:47:51,435 --> 00:47:53,070
And I called JK,
979
00:47:53,070 --> 00:47:54,438
I had to give him
a chance to respond.
980
00:47:54,438 --> 00:47:56,306
To tell me, is it true?
I called him up.
981
00:47:56,306 --> 00:48:00,043
I said,
"Did you make babies?"
982
00:48:00,477 --> 00:48:01,645
And he said...
983
00:48:02,546 --> 00:48:04,348
"Talk to Ryan."
984
00:48:04,348 --> 00:48:06,250
[Ryan] At that point,
there was just no helping
985
00:48:06,250 --> 00:48:07,651
what was going to happen.
986
00:48:09,386 --> 00:48:11,221
And so,
there was no plan.
987
00:48:12,022 --> 00:48:13,657
Not really.
988
00:48:13,657 --> 00:48:15,325
[Antonio] Babies whose genomes
had been mutated...
989
00:48:15,325 --> 00:48:17,995
as part of
an international science race.
990
00:48:17,995 --> 00:48:19,396
Yeah.
All right, thanks, bye.
991
00:48:19,396 --> 00:48:23,667
I hung up the phone with Ryan,
and I just pressed publish.
992
00:48:23,667 --> 00:48:25,502
[news anchor 1]
Chinese researcher
993
00:48:25,502 --> 00:48:27,471
has created
an international controversy
994
00:48:27,471 --> 00:48:30,040
over the world's first
genetically edited babies.
995
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:31,975
[news anchor 2] Supposedly,
giving these twin girls
996
00:48:31,975 --> 00:48:34,645
the ability
to resist HIV infection.
997
00:48:34,645 --> 00:48:36,680
[news anchor Research
was roundly condemned,
998
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,548
because it was shrouded
in secrecy,
999
00:48:38,548 --> 00:48:40,284
and broke with
international scientific--
1000
00:48:40,284 --> 00:48:41,685
Robin,
this type of experimentation
1001
00:48:41,685 --> 00:48:43,520
is illegal
here in the US
1002
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:45,255
and in most other countries.
1003
00:48:45,255 --> 00:48:47,257
[news anchor 4]
Akin to Russian roulette.
1004
00:48:47,257 --> 00:48:50,193
This is a genetic fix
to a problem of social stigma,
1005
00:48:50,193 --> 00:48:52,396
and that is a dangerous
door to open.
1006
00:48:52,396 --> 00:48:55,265
[woman] I want dark eyes,
I want blond hair.
1007
00:48:55,265 --> 00:48:56,667
major inequalities
1008
00:48:56,667 --> 00:48:58,402
that are then
more emphasized.
1009
00:48:58,402 --> 00:48:59,970
Where you have
two classes of people:
1010
00:48:59,970 --> 00:49:01,605
the genetically altered
elites,
1011
00:49:01,605 --> 00:49:03,407
who have more skill,
more intelligence,
1012
00:49:03,407 --> 00:49:05,542
more talent,
and the unaltered poor...
1013
00:49:05,542 --> 00:49:08,145
Changing the genetic code
of the human race.
1014
00:49:08,145 --> 00:49:10,380
-[woman] For generations.
-[maExtraordinary.
1015
00:49:10,380 --> 00:49:12,482
[female newscaster] Premature,
dangerous, and irresponsible.
1016
00:49:12,482 --> 00:49:14,384
We have not heard
the end of this story.
1017
00:49:14,384 --> 00:49:16,186
It is going to cause
massive uproar
1018
00:49:16,186 --> 00:49:17,454
in the scientific
and medical community.
1019
00:49:17,454 --> 00:49:19,056
Thank you. Thank you.
1020
00:49:19,056 --> 00:49:20,624
[Ben]
Before the news came out,
1021
00:49:20,624 --> 00:49:22,626
were American scientists
here satisfied
1022
00:49:22,626 --> 00:49:26,330
with your ethics process
and so forth, or...
1023
00:49:27,531 --> 00:49:29,399
[JK] Uh, again,
1024
00:49:29,399 --> 00:49:31,468
at the beginning
they are very worried
1025
00:49:31,468 --> 00:49:34,037
then they say "Okay."
1026
00:49:34,037 --> 00:49:36,106
[Ben] And then quickly
changed their mind
1027
00:49:36,106 --> 00:49:37,641
when the news came out?
1028
00:49:37,641 --> 00:49:40,010
[JK] And yeah,
when the news came out,
1029
00:49:40,010 --> 00:49:43,680
after four days, they send
me a message and say no.
1030
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,149
It's too controversial.
1031
00:49:46,149 --> 00:49:48,018
Genetically altered
designer babies,
1032
00:49:48,018 --> 00:49:49,386
where parents are choosing
1033
00:49:49,386 --> 00:49:50,687
what attributes
they want for...
1034
00:49:50,687 --> 00:49:52,456
This was happening
on the eve
1035
00:49:52,456 --> 00:49:54,624
of a big
international gathering
1036
00:49:54,624 --> 00:49:56,293
to think about
1037
00:49:56,293 --> 00:49:58,762
human applications
of genome editing
1038
00:49:58,762 --> 00:50:00,097
in Hong Kong.
1039
00:50:00,097 --> 00:50:02,232
[traffic din]
1040
00:50:14,277 --> 00:50:16,680
[JK] [indistinct].
1041
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,282
Thank you for all
you have done to me.
1042
00:50:19,282 --> 00:50:22,686
But I don't want to
make contact with anybody
1043
00:50:22,686 --> 00:50:24,087
in the future.
1044
00:50:24,087 --> 00:50:26,490
[Ben] Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
1045
00:50:27,791 --> 00:50:30,761
It was very difficult
for me...
1046
00:50:30,761 --> 00:50:33,196
the day before the summit,
1047
00:50:33,196 --> 00:50:35,065
where everything broke.
1048
00:50:35,065 --> 00:50:38,702
On that ride there,
JK was very nervous.
1049
00:50:39,803 --> 00:50:42,372
And he called up
his government contacts
1050
00:50:42,372 --> 00:50:44,141
And he thought
it was unlikely
1051
00:50:44,141 --> 00:50:47,344
that the Communist Party
would continue to exercise
1052
00:50:47,344 --> 00:50:48,812
any protection for him.
1053
00:50:48,812 --> 00:50:51,615
And he thought he would be
immediately silenced.
1054
00:50:54,418 --> 00:50:57,087
I spent the last night
with JK.
1055
00:50:57,087 --> 00:51:00,057
And someone
from the university
1056
00:51:00,057 --> 00:51:01,825
came to where he was staying
1057
00:51:01,825 --> 00:51:03,393
and was basically saying,
1058
00:51:03,393 --> 00:51:04,795
"You have to
come back with me."
1059
00:51:04,795 --> 00:51:06,196
And he openly refused.
1060
00:51:06,196 --> 00:51:07,631
He said,
"No, I'm going to talk."
1061
00:51:07,631 --> 00:51:11,268
He wanted to say his piece.
1062
00:51:11,268 --> 00:51:15,305
If we can help this family
protect their children,
1063
00:51:15,305 --> 00:51:17,808
it's inhuman for us not to.
1064
00:51:17,808 --> 00:51:23,246
We have-- we felt deeply
about helping these families.
1065
00:51:23,246 --> 00:51:27,551
We believe ethics
on all one side of history.
1066
00:51:35,459 --> 00:51:37,694
Uh, it's just
a sense of dread.
1067
00:51:39,329 --> 00:51:43,200
[indistinct chatter]
1068
00:52:04,721 --> 00:52:07,157
I would like to, um--
if you can hear me--
1069
00:52:07,157 --> 00:52:10,760
ask, uh-- uh-- Jiankui He
to come to the stage.
1070
00:52:11,695 --> 00:52:15,832
[camera shutters clicking]
1071
00:52:20,570 --> 00:52:23,373
[JK] First,
I must apologize...
1072
00:52:24,474 --> 00:52:27,511
that these results
leaked unexpected
1073
00:52:27,511 --> 00:52:29,146
before this conference.
1074
00:52:30,213 --> 00:52:31,815
-[host] Please, stop--
-This study--
1075
00:52:31,815 --> 00:52:33,683
[host]It's very disturbing
for everyone here.
1076
00:52:33,683 --> 00:52:36,319
If you're taking photographs,
he's standing still,
1077
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:37,821
you've already
taken photographs.
1078
00:52:37,821 --> 00:52:39,556
You don't need to take
any more.
1079
00:52:40,624 --> 00:52:41,892
[photographer] Press freedom.
1080
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,729
[Ryan] You just see it
in slow motion.
1081
00:52:45,729 --> 00:52:49,599
Everything that you thought
that you'd be able to stop this
1082
00:52:49,599 --> 00:52:51,401
from being a disaster.
1083
00:52:57,941 --> 00:53:00,844
The general feeling amongst
the scientific community
1084
00:53:00,844 --> 00:53:03,680
is that we shouldn't go
ahead yet in doing this.
1085
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,416
The accusation now
is that you've broken the law.
1086
00:53:06,416 --> 00:53:08,418
So why-- why-- there's
so much secrecy?
1087
00:53:10,387 --> 00:53:15,292
Okay, so, as I said,
I have been engaged to her
1088
00:53:15,292 --> 00:53:16,927
in the scientific community.
1089
00:53:16,927 --> 00:53:18,528
Three years ago,
1090
00:53:18,528 --> 00:53:21,498
publicly speaking about
this data
1091
00:53:21,498 --> 00:53:24,434
and the consequent
feedback from them.
1092
00:53:24,434 --> 00:53:29,306
I just don't see the unmet
medical need for these girls.
1093
00:53:29,306 --> 00:53:34,511
I have personally experienced
with some people in that age,
1094
00:53:34,511 --> 00:53:36,846
range with this specific case,
1095
00:53:36,846 --> 00:53:40,550
I feel it's a fair point,
actually.
1096
00:53:40,550 --> 00:53:46,323
Um, you cited your own work
on looking at some evidence
1097
00:53:46,323 --> 00:53:48,525
to suggest that
there was no effect on--
1098
00:53:48,525 --> 00:53:50,527
on behavioral or cognition,
1099
00:53:50,527 --> 00:53:52,896
but there has been
another paper published
1100
00:53:52,896 --> 00:53:57,000
suggesting that actually mice
with mutations in CCR5
1101
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,370
have enhanced
cognitive ability.
1102
00:54:00,370 --> 00:54:03,940
I against that using the genome
editing for enhancement.
1103
00:54:05,642 --> 00:54:09,312
Uh, second,
so the study you mentioned,
1104
00:54:09,312 --> 00:54:12,682
I saw the paper and I believe
1105
00:54:12,682 --> 00:54:15,885
it more independent
now-- verification.
1106
00:54:15,885 --> 00:54:20,390
I personally don't think that
it was medically necessary.
1107
00:54:20,390 --> 00:54:21,958
I think
there has been a--
1108
00:54:21,958 --> 00:54:26,830
a failure of self-regulation
1109
00:54:26,830 --> 00:54:29,899
by the scientific community
1110
00:54:29,899 --> 00:54:32,736
because of a lack of
transparency.
1111
00:54:37,874 --> 00:54:40,510
Was this even
medically necessary?
1112
00:54:40,510 --> 00:54:43,413
No. I would say it was
not medically necessary.
1113
00:54:43,413 --> 00:54:46,416
Does it unsettle you
knowing the technology
1114
00:54:46,416 --> 00:54:49,019
that you helped to develop
was used in this way?
1115
00:54:49,019 --> 00:54:50,654
I mean, I think
it's very disturbing.
1116
00:54:50,654 --> 00:54:52,355
It's inappropriate.
1117
00:54:52,355 --> 00:54:54,357
It goes against
all of the guidelines
1118
00:54:54,357 --> 00:54:55,725
that were established.
1119
00:54:55,725 --> 00:54:57,661
[Ryan] It was surprising
to me how easily
1120
00:54:57,661 --> 00:54:59,896
the rogue narrative took over.
1121
00:54:59,896 --> 00:55:01,665
It was convenient
for a lot of groups,
1122
00:55:01,665 --> 00:55:03,333
particularly China.
1123
00:55:03,333 --> 00:55:05,035
"He's rogue, he's isolated."
1124
00:55:05,035 --> 00:55:07,537
People just ran
for any accent...
1125
00:55:08,772 --> 00:55:10,607
and would say anything.
1126
00:55:10,607 --> 00:55:13,610
People started saying,
"These people are monsters."
1127
00:55:13,610 --> 00:55:15,745
[Antonio] Since the news broke,
nobody knows this guy.
1128
00:55:16,546 --> 00:55:17,747
Nobody knows him.
1129
00:55:18,948 --> 00:55:20,517
But the day before
the news broke,
1130
00:55:20,517 --> 00:55:22,018
I bet a lot of people
knew him.
1131
00:55:22,018 --> 00:55:23,586
And that's people
in the United States.
1132
00:55:23,586 --> 00:55:26,022
So, imagine
what people knew in China.
1133
00:55:26,923 --> 00:55:29,926
[speaking Chinese]
1134
00:55:37,334 --> 00:55:40,036
[Ryan] And JK violated
the agreement that he had
1135
00:55:40,036 --> 00:55:42,005
with the government,
which is some trouble,
1136
00:55:42,005 --> 00:55:44,908
is something will tolerate
and protect you from.
1137
00:55:44,908 --> 00:55:47,977
But too much trouble is going
to be too much trouble for us.
1138
00:55:47,977 --> 00:55:49,846
[dramatic music plays]
1139
00:56:08,098 --> 00:56:11,601
[people clamoring]
1140
00:56:19,142 --> 00:56:20,910
[newscaster]
Interesting developing
1141
00:56:20,910 --> 00:56:22,946
details out of China,
how Jiankui
1142
00:56:22,946 --> 00:56:25,615
was last seen
at a conference in Hong Kong.
1143
00:56:25,615 --> 00:56:27,550
One expert says the project
1144
00:56:27,550 --> 00:56:30,620
was unnecessary
and unconscionable.
1145
00:56:39,396 --> 00:56:41,664
[Ben] Can you go back
to China at this point?
1146
00:56:42,098 --> 00:56:44,868
I think I can go to China
but the question is,
1147
00:56:44,868 --> 00:56:46,403
you know, am I going to
come back from China?
1148
00:56:46,403 --> 00:56:47,570
That's the question.
1149
00:56:48,738 --> 00:56:50,140
I don't know. Um--
1150
00:56:55,044 --> 00:56:56,446
I don't know.
1151
00:56:56,446 --> 00:56:58,782
[Ben] So, you didn't know
there were babies
1152
00:56:58,782 --> 00:57:00,116
until about two weeks
before the summit?
1153
00:57:01,151 --> 00:57:03,086
I-- Yeah,
I didn't know exactly
1154
00:57:03,086 --> 00:57:05,121
who was going to be
and when it was going to be,
1155
00:57:05,121 --> 00:57:07,190
but I knew there was gonna be
a first-person
1156
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:08,858
and they're going to be
a lot of people
1157
00:57:08,858 --> 00:57:11,094
that objected
to that first person
1158
00:57:11,094 --> 00:57:13,997
that I don't want to be
the first person.
1159
00:57:15,999 --> 00:57:18,134
Yeah, I wanted to be
the guy in the back room
1160
00:57:18,134 --> 00:57:19,736
making technology work.
1161
00:57:23,706 --> 00:57:26,876
But the thing is,
since this is the first
1162
00:57:26,876 --> 00:57:30,146
and only case
of germline editing,
1163
00:57:30,146 --> 00:57:32,816
we should be testing
the blood cells
1164
00:57:32,816 --> 00:57:34,717
of both children.
1165
00:57:36,553 --> 00:57:39,856
It is a tremendous
opportunity for the world.
1166
00:57:39,856 --> 00:57:44,194
Nobody knows if there's
negative health consequences
1167
00:57:44,194 --> 00:57:46,563
or positive health consequences
for the twins.
1168
00:57:46,563 --> 00:57:48,932
Nobody knows.
There's no news.
1169
00:57:48,932 --> 00:57:52,702
The Chinese state
is censoring the subject.
1170
00:57:52,702 --> 00:57:55,605
There's a first report
from People's Daily,
1171
00:57:55,605 --> 00:57:56,739
you know,
it's real positive.
1172
00:57:56,739 --> 00:57:59,008
Articles now deleted
from the Internet.
1173
00:57:59,008 --> 00:58:03,179
Since China's President
Xi Jinping took over,
1174
00:58:03,179 --> 00:58:05,648
the country has taken
a marked authoritarian turn
1175
00:58:05,648 --> 00:58:08,017
and obviously was already
autocratic before.
1176
00:58:08,017 --> 00:58:10,520
But things have gotten
much, much worse.
1177
00:58:13,089 --> 00:58:16,259
The Chinese government is using
genetic research and science
1178
00:58:16,259 --> 00:58:18,261
to build out
the next generation technology
1179
00:58:18,261 --> 00:58:19,762
to control people.
1180
00:58:19,762 --> 00:58:24,100
The government had plans
to use He Jiankui's story
1181
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:26,169
to create this perfect veneer
1182
00:58:26,169 --> 00:58:28,872
of international respectability
1183
00:58:28,872 --> 00:58:30,273
and the kind of rising star.
1184
00:58:30,273 --> 00:58:32,876
I can't think of a gift
more beautiful
1185
00:58:32,876 --> 00:58:35,245
and wholesome
for the society...
1186
00:58:35,245 --> 00:58:38,948
And then He Jiankui disappears.
1187
00:58:38,948 --> 00:58:40,683
[newscaster] He was last seen
at the Human Genome
1188
00:58:40,683 --> 00:58:42,652
Editing conference
on Wednesday.
1189
00:58:42,652 --> 00:58:44,854
The South China Morning Post
is dismissing claims
1190
00:58:44,854 --> 00:58:46,289
he was detained, saying
1191
00:58:46,289 --> 00:58:48,525
reports are not accurate
right now.
1192
00:58:48,525 --> 00:58:50,760
He was the most important
man in science
1193
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:52,161
at the moment, right?
1194
00:58:52,161 --> 00:58:53,830
And there's no
interview possibilities,
1195
00:58:53,830 --> 00:58:55,832
there's just no ability
to even find him.
1196
00:58:57,700 --> 00:58:59,168
And it's as if
it never happened.
1197
00:58:59,168 --> 00:59:01,571
And so we went down
to look for him.
1198
00:59:03,573 --> 00:59:06,109
We've decided, okay, well, we
should go see his lab, right?
1199
00:59:15,985 --> 00:59:18,588
We see these
small signs of him.
1200
00:59:20,123 --> 00:59:22,992
He's still on the Department
of Biology Board.
1201
00:59:22,992 --> 00:59:24,594
His name is still up.
1202
00:59:24,594 --> 00:59:28,131
So, I take a picture of it
and the guy who's following us,
1203
00:59:28,131 --> 00:59:29,766
like, "Why are you
taking a picture of that?"
1204
00:59:29,766 --> 00:59:31,334
I say, "Well,
it's a part of history."
1205
00:59:31,334 --> 00:59:33,736
And then they just
take their hand
1206
00:59:33,736 --> 00:59:35,171
and put it out
on top of the label.
1207
00:59:35,171 --> 00:59:37,140
This is quite
literally a cover-up.
1208
00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:40,743
And at this point,
he's been locked up for days,
1209
00:59:40,743 --> 00:59:42,345
but we can't really
find him.
1210
00:59:48,084 --> 00:59:50,353
[Antonio] After we published
the article the next day,
1211
00:59:50,353 --> 00:59:52,188
I got an email
from somebody anonymous
1212
00:59:52,188 --> 00:59:55,258
from a disposable
one-time-use email address,
1213
00:59:55,258 --> 00:59:57,360
and it's a state case paper.
1214
01:00:00,296 --> 01:00:02,231
It's never been published.
1215
01:00:02,231 --> 01:00:04,367
And so we eventually decided
to show the kinds of things
1216
01:00:04,367 --> 01:00:06,769
he was claiming for
the technology.
1217
01:00:12,141 --> 01:00:13,977
Science here,
you're making claims
1218
01:00:13,977 --> 01:00:15,712
and you've gotta back up
those claims with some data.
1219
01:00:15,712 --> 01:00:17,880
That is the basic game.
1220
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:19,649
Does the data
support the claim?
1221
01:00:20,883 --> 01:00:22,352
In JK's paper,
1222
01:00:22,352 --> 01:00:24,754
some of the cells
in this early embryo
1223
01:00:24,754 --> 01:00:26,322
are edited in different ways
than others,
1224
01:00:26,322 --> 01:00:27,924
called Mosaicism.
1225
01:00:27,924 --> 01:00:29,926
And so as they grow
and multiply,
1226
01:00:29,926 --> 01:00:31,694
you're gonna get a person
1227
01:00:31,694 --> 01:00:35,398
who is a patchwork
of differently edited self.
1228
01:00:37,033 --> 01:00:38,368
Is that a problem or not?
1229
01:00:39,836 --> 01:00:41,904
Nobody knows,
but it's not a kind of
1230
01:00:41,904 --> 01:00:43,706
successful conclusion
to an experiment.
1231
01:00:45,942 --> 01:00:49,679
So, the question is,
are there unwanted mutations...
1232
01:00:49,679 --> 01:00:51,814
in a cancer gene?
Who knows?
1233
01:00:51,814 --> 01:00:55,018
Because all the follow-up
that JK He wanted to do
1234
01:00:55,018 --> 01:00:56,719
and he says in his paper,
1235
01:00:56,719 --> 01:00:58,287
"I'm gonna follow them
until they're 18
1236
01:00:58,287 --> 01:01:00,189
and I'm gonna take
all these measurements."
1237
01:01:00,189 --> 01:01:01,991
He's not in
a position to do that.
1238
01:01:03,926 --> 01:01:05,428
And we don't know
where the twins are.
1239
01:01:05,428 --> 01:01:06,929
We don't know
if the Chinese government
1240
01:01:06,929 --> 01:01:08,698
is gonna provide any answers.
1241
01:01:09,899 --> 01:01:11,267
It's human subjects research.
1242
01:01:11,267 --> 01:01:12,702
You're experimenting
on a person.
1243
01:01:15,071 --> 01:01:17,440
[baby crying]
1244
01:01:23,980 --> 01:01:26,382
They knew
the embryos were flawed.
1245
01:01:28,284 --> 01:01:31,054
So the question is,
why would you make a person?
1246
01:01:31,054 --> 01:01:35,892
♪
1247
01:01:45,268 --> 01:01:48,838
[newscaster speaks Chinese]
1248
01:01:51,974 --> 01:01:53,843
[narrator]
It starts with genes,
1249
01:01:53,843 --> 01:01:56,879
to ensure that every baby
born in the world
1250
01:01:56,879 --> 01:01:58,881
is an angel without regret.
1251
01:02:01,117 --> 01:02:05,221
[Ben] Dr. John Zhang runs
the New Hope Fertility Center
1252
01:02:05,221 --> 01:02:07,890
in New York and in several
other countries,
1253
01:02:07,890 --> 01:02:10,126
Ukraine, Thailand,
1254
01:02:10,126 --> 01:02:12,462
partnerships
with Mexico, China.
1255
01:02:12,462 --> 01:02:16,299
[woman] Our dream is for China
to embrace genetics,
1256
01:02:16,299 --> 01:02:18,301
to make our country strong.
1257
01:02:18,301 --> 01:02:21,304
If you want
a genetically engineered child,
1258
01:02:21,304 --> 01:02:23,973
you've gotta go through
the process of IVF
1259
01:02:25,441 --> 01:02:29,946
Zhang wants to create
the industry
1260
01:02:29,946 --> 01:02:33,149
that makes these technologies
available to people
1261
01:02:33,149 --> 01:02:35,451
who want particular
kinds of children.
1262
01:02:35,451 --> 01:02:38,955
Zhang told
MIT Technology Review,
1263
01:02:38,955 --> 01:02:41,791
"With nuclear transfer
and gene editing together,
1264
01:02:41,791 --> 01:02:43,793
you can really do
anything you want.
1265
01:02:43,793 --> 01:02:48,097
Everything we do is a step
towards designer babies."
1266
01:02:48,097 --> 01:02:52,935
So, I think that the--
He Jiankui partnership,
1267
01:02:52,935 --> 01:02:55,838
it's a sort of
business partnership
1268
01:02:55,838 --> 01:02:57,073
made in heaven.
1269
01:02:58,274 --> 01:03:00,176
Or hell.
I don't know which.
1270
01:03:04,113 --> 01:03:06,382
[Ryan] So, the two of them
traveled to Hainan
1271
01:03:06,382 --> 01:03:09,152
to investigate this center
that they wanted to build.
1272
01:03:09,152 --> 01:03:10,953
What's the fastest way
to build it?
1273
01:03:12,054 --> 01:03:14,490
In Hainan,
there's a special medical zone
1274
01:03:14,490 --> 01:03:16,859
to develop
novel technologies.
1275
01:03:16,859 --> 01:03:18,361
[JK] Hey, Ryan.
1276
01:03:18,361 --> 01:03:20,129
So, I already made
appointment
1277
01:03:20,129 --> 01:03:22,298
with Hainan [indistinct]
government.
1278
01:03:22,298 --> 01:03:25,401
So, John Zhang
and me will be there.
1279
01:03:25,401 --> 01:03:28,171
So, I want you
to go there with us.
1280
01:03:28,171 --> 01:03:29,539
So, okay to that?
1281
01:03:29,539 --> 01:03:32,275
[Ryan] I remember
the vice governor asking,
1282
01:03:32,275 --> 01:03:34,243
"Do you need money?"
1283
01:03:34,243 --> 01:03:35,912
JK and Dr. Zhang said,
1284
01:03:35,912 --> 01:03:38,181
"No, that's not really
a concern for us."
1285
01:03:38,181 --> 01:03:39,882
They wanted
to get moving fast.
1286
01:03:39,882 --> 01:03:42,485
So, they wanted laws
that were amenable
1287
01:03:42,485 --> 01:03:44,821
-to their project.
-Right.
1288
01:03:44,821 --> 01:03:47,456
[Ben] And Hainan,
the Hainan authorities--
1289
01:03:47,456 --> 01:03:49,225
That's the purpose of Hainan.
1290
01:03:50,827 --> 01:03:54,831
So, Ryan, this is the pitch
deck for the company, right?
1291
01:03:54,831 --> 01:03:56,399
Audrey Lifesciences.
1292
01:03:56,399 --> 01:03:58,100
What's the name about?
1293
01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:01,504
The name
is his firstborn daughter.
1294
01:04:06,843 --> 01:04:10,079
These technologies
tend to bring up debates
1295
01:04:10,079 --> 01:04:12,281
that are sort of
as old as man, right?
1296
01:04:12,281 --> 01:04:14,283
[Ben] So, who are
the potential customers?
1297
01:04:14,283 --> 01:04:17,153
Government
is at the top of that list.
1298
01:04:17,153 --> 01:04:19,388
Big buyers.
Big customers.
1299
01:04:19,388 --> 01:04:23,593
So he thought that militaries
would be very positive.
1300
01:04:25,094 --> 01:04:26,529
[Antonio] Adam and Eve.
1301
01:04:26,529 --> 01:04:28,331
The apple of knowledge
from the tree.
1302
01:04:28,331 --> 01:04:32,134
Who's the snake?
What does the apple represent?
1303
01:04:32,134 --> 01:04:36,606
This slide says
the first try is HIV,
1304
01:04:36,606 --> 01:04:38,341
but that's just
a stepping stone.
1305
01:04:39,242 --> 01:04:40,443
[Antonio] Knowledge.
1306
01:04:41,143 --> 01:04:42,245
It's the first sin.
1307
01:04:42,245 --> 01:04:44,947
Okay, I'm asking you
about Greek myths.
1308
01:04:44,947 --> 01:04:47,149
You remember this guy
with the snakes?
1309
01:04:47,149 --> 01:04:48,951
-[child] Yeah.
-[Antonio] Two snakes.
1310
01:04:48,951 --> 01:04:50,987
He became the first
great physician, Priscilla.
1311
01:04:50,987 --> 01:04:53,456
The vision
is eliminating cancer,
1312
01:04:53,456 --> 01:04:55,291
diabetes,
Parkinson's disease,
1313
01:04:55,291 --> 01:04:57,460
and Alzheimer's disease
in human.
1314
01:04:57,460 --> 01:04:59,495
[Antonio] He grew
so skilled in his art,
1315
01:04:59,495 --> 01:05:02,198
they could even bring
the dead back to life.
1316
01:05:02,198 --> 01:05:05,134
[Ben] Through gene editing
human civilization
1317
01:05:05,134 --> 01:05:07,069
has entered an era
of self-destiny.
1318
01:05:07,069 --> 01:05:09,672
Smarter,
stronger and healthier.
1319
01:05:09,672 --> 01:05:12,541
His patients adored him and
showered treasures upon him,
1320
01:05:12,541 --> 01:05:16,279
and it wasn't long before
they worshiped him as a god.
1321
01:05:16,279 --> 01:05:21,117
Look back to the 1970s
with Louise Brown.
1322
01:05:21,117 --> 01:05:22,952
It is hoped that centers
1323
01:05:22,952 --> 01:05:25,521
will be set up
all over the world.
1324
01:05:25,521 --> 01:05:28,424
[Ben] He is looking
to the past to get a sense
1325
01:05:28,424 --> 01:05:31,260
of what's likely
to happen to him.
1326
01:05:31,260 --> 01:05:33,329
For a while,
Zeus was lenient
1327
01:05:33,329 --> 01:05:35,431
but when Asclepius
accepted gold
1328
01:05:35,431 --> 01:05:37,600
for bringing back
the dead to life,
1329
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,235
Zeus hurled
a thunderbolt at him.
1330
01:05:39,235 --> 01:05:40,937
[Ben]
This is the longer game plan.
1331
01:05:40,937 --> 01:05:44,073
Just because it's controversial
doesn't mean that it's bad.
1332
01:05:44,073 --> 01:05:45,675
It just means
that the person
1333
01:05:45,675 --> 01:05:47,343
who's the subject
of controversy
1334
01:05:47,343 --> 01:05:49,345
has to be prepared
to weather a storm.
1335
01:05:49,345 --> 01:05:52,114
[Antonio]
Nothing was left of Asclepius,
1336
01:05:52,114 --> 01:05:54,617
the first great doctor,
but a small heap of ashes.
1337
01:05:54,617 --> 01:05:57,153
But his temples
and his teachings
1338
01:05:57,153 --> 01:05:59,188
of medical science
remained among the stars
1339
01:05:59,188 --> 01:06:00,456
as a constellation.
1340
01:06:01,557 --> 01:06:02,992
Ah...
1341
01:06:03,993 --> 01:06:08,097
[traffic din]
1342
01:06:10,599 --> 01:06:12,601
[Paul] So, everybody's
looking for He Jiankui.
1343
01:06:13,736 --> 01:06:15,538
And my colleague
and I were trying
1344
01:06:15,538 --> 01:06:17,306
to figure out where he was.
1345
01:06:17,306 --> 01:06:18,674
And, so, she was snooping
around the campus.
1346
01:06:21,143 --> 01:06:23,346
And there's a bus stop
right next to the dorms
1347
01:06:23,346 --> 01:06:25,014
where the teachers live.
1348
01:06:25,014 --> 01:06:27,249
And she looks up
while she's waiting for the bus
1349
01:06:27,249 --> 01:06:30,686
up on the fourth-story
balcony is this guy
1350
01:06:30,686 --> 01:06:32,588
who looks a heck of a lot
like He Jiankui.
1351
01:06:36,192 --> 01:06:38,394
The balcony
has bars across the top.
1352
01:06:38,394 --> 01:06:40,363
So, it looks like
he's kind of caged in.
1353
01:06:43,432 --> 01:06:45,301
He's sort of
stalking back and forth.
1354
01:06:45,301 --> 01:06:46,669
He's holding on to the wires.
1355
01:06:48,437 --> 01:06:50,373
Made it look like
somebody on the edge.
1356
01:06:53,142 --> 01:06:55,311
He was very responsive
during this time.
1357
01:06:55,311 --> 01:06:57,113
He would often call.
1358
01:06:57,113 --> 01:06:59,315
[J.No more people
come to talk to me.
1359
01:06:59,315 --> 01:07:03,119
And waiting for the result.
1360
01:07:03,119 --> 01:07:05,187
[Ben] So,
the investigation's complete
1361
01:07:05,187 --> 01:07:07,456
but they haven't issued
their findings.
1362
01:07:09,325 --> 01:07:12,161
[JK] That's right.
They have issued a statement.
1363
01:07:12,161 --> 01:07:13,696
Mmm-hmm.
1364
01:07:15,398 --> 01:07:17,400
[Ben] The investigators
know the identities
1365
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:19,602
of the parents and children?
1366
01:07:19,602 --> 01:07:21,470
[JK] Some of them.
1367
01:07:21,470 --> 01:07:23,172
[Ben] I can imagine
they're very worried
1368
01:07:23,172 --> 01:07:26,275
about their identities
being known.
1369
01:07:26,275 --> 01:07:29,311
[JK] Yes. [indistinct] very
scary.
1370
01:07:29,311 --> 01:07:31,747
If they are gonna kill
this baby
1371
01:07:31,747 --> 01:07:34,216
or sterilize them
or something.
1372
01:07:34,216 --> 01:07:36,085
-Yeah.
-[JK] It's really violent.
1373
01:07:36,085 --> 01:07:39,688
[JK] [indistinct]
1374
01:07:40,322 --> 01:07:44,093
[indistinct]
1375
01:07:48,431 --> 01:07:50,332
We wait in the morning,
we're trying to sort of see
1376
01:07:50,332 --> 01:07:51,801
if he'll come out.
1377
01:07:51,801 --> 01:07:53,469
He doesn't come out
and at some point,
1378
01:07:53,469 --> 01:07:55,104
we try to get in
a bunch of different ways.
1379
01:08:01,410 --> 01:08:02,812
So, I tried to get
through the hallway
1380
01:08:02,812 --> 01:08:04,146
and this guy
immediately stops me.
1381
01:08:04,146 --> 01:08:08,517
[speaking Chinese]
1382
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:13,556
And then all of a sudden,
here come more, right.
1383
01:08:14,857 --> 01:08:16,826
So, they're all kind of
flooding out, you know,
1384
01:08:16,826 --> 01:08:20,729
He Jiankui got locked away
with 12 secret police
1385
01:08:20,729 --> 01:08:24,166
standing outside his door,
guarding him,
1386
01:08:24,166 --> 01:08:27,303
preventing people, like me,
from going to talk to him.
1387
01:08:27,303 --> 01:08:28,871
[JK]
Okay, here's the thing.
1388
01:08:28,871 --> 01:08:31,307
The Government don't want
many views.
1389
01:08:31,307 --> 01:08:35,511
I cannot talk to journalists
because thy don't want people
1390
01:08:35,511 --> 01:08:38,481
to know what
is happening here.
1391
01:08:38,481 --> 01:08:40,583
[indistinct]
1392
01:08:41,884 --> 01:08:45,621
[Ben] During this time
he was remarkably forthright.
1393
01:08:46,288 --> 01:08:48,624
Up until one day.
1394
01:08:48,624 --> 01:08:52,528
[JK] People ask me
why you moved in so fast.
1395
01:08:52,528 --> 01:08:54,730
It's-- it's kind of
been pushed...
1396
01:08:54,730 --> 01:08:56,165
Yeah.
1397
01:08:56,165 --> 01:08:58,300
[Paul] But at this point,
I'm kind of backed into
1398
01:08:58,300 --> 01:09:00,369
a corner here, right,
and I'm surrounded by guys
1399
01:09:00,369 --> 01:09:03,405
and at that point I kind of
realize it is time to go.
1400
01:09:06,775 --> 01:09:10,679
[rushing footsteps]
1401
01:09:10,679 --> 01:09:13,516
[Paul] So, that somebody
is knocking...
1402
01:09:13,516 --> 01:09:15,618
Okay. [indistinct]
1403
01:09:15,618 --> 01:09:19,722
[tense music playing]
1404
01:09:34,937 --> 01:09:36,939
I've heard
nothing from him since then.
1405
01:09:38,340 --> 01:09:44,313
[city din]
1406
01:09:53,189 --> 01:09:54,890
[man over PThe passenger
cabin will be subjected
1407
01:09:54,890 --> 01:09:56,825
to audio and video collection.
1408
01:09:56,825 --> 01:09:58,460
Your support...
1409
01:09:58,460 --> 01:09:59,962
[Paul] One night
I was about to go to bed,
1410
01:09:59,962 --> 01:10:01,730
and there's this announcement
1411
01:10:01,730 --> 01:10:03,766
from the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs saying
1412
01:10:03,766 --> 01:10:07,303
New York Times journalists
have to leave.
1413
01:10:07,303 --> 01:10:08,871
The Wall Street Journal,
The New York Times
1414
01:10:08,871 --> 01:10:10,639
aThe Washington Post.
1415
01:10:10,639 --> 01:10:13,242
This is it,
you know, we're done.
1416
01:10:13,242 --> 01:10:15,911
This is the biggest number
of journalists ever kicked out
1417
01:10:15,911 --> 01:10:18,614
by the government
at once in modern history.
1418
01:10:18,614 --> 01:10:20,749
But they're also
not unexpected because...
1419
01:10:20,749 --> 01:10:23,452
[Paul] Not being there
is a huge blow to what we know
1420
01:10:23,452 --> 01:10:24,887
and what we can understand.
1421
01:10:24,887 --> 01:10:27,723
Fundamentally,
the Chinese Communist Party
1422
01:10:27,723 --> 01:10:30,859
believes that it can engineer
society into a giant machine,
1423
01:10:30,859 --> 01:10:32,995
that it can make work
for its benefit.
1424
01:10:32,995 --> 01:10:36,498
Why not see the same thing
about the human genome
1425
01:10:36,498 --> 01:10:37,933
and the human body?
1426
01:10:39,301 --> 01:10:42,238
[Ryan] If there's a kind of
international game
1427
01:10:42,238 --> 01:10:43,706
that's being played,
1428
01:10:43,706 --> 01:10:46,408
China is gonna get back
into that game.
1429
01:10:46,408 --> 01:10:52,281
But so too are other
researchers in other countries.
1430
01:10:55,517 --> 01:10:59,989
[Paul] People like He Jiankui
are pushed to do these things
1431
01:10:59,989 --> 01:11:01,523
and take these risks.
1432
01:11:01,523 --> 01:11:03,525
The system
relies on scapegoats.
1433
01:11:05,027 --> 01:11:06,695
[Ben] Every time
I look at this list,
1434
01:11:06,695 --> 01:11:08,831
the people who knew
master list.
1435
01:11:09,465 --> 01:11:10,866
There are...
1436
01:11:10,866 --> 01:11:13,435
more than 65 entries
on this list.
1437
01:11:13,435 --> 01:11:15,604
[Ryan]
And that doesn't include anyone
1438
01:11:15,604 --> 01:11:17,840
-who is directly with the lab.
-Right.
1439
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:21,644
[Ben] I'm struck
by how these people,
1440
01:11:21,644 --> 01:11:24,546
many of whom spoke up
enthusiastically
1441
01:11:24,546 --> 01:11:26,682
in these conversations
with JK,
1442
01:11:26,682 --> 01:11:28,550
have said they knew
nothing about it,
1443
01:11:28,550 --> 01:11:30,552
had nothing to do with it
after the fact.
1444
01:11:30,552 --> 01:11:32,788
[JK] I'm so happy.
[chuckles]
1445
01:11:32,788 --> 01:11:34,423
I just talked with them.
1446
01:11:34,423 --> 01:11:36,558
Mark Dewitt and he's--
1447
01:11:36,558 --> 01:11:39,695
I discussed with Craig Mello,
he and Mark Dewitt was there.
1448
01:11:39,695 --> 01:11:42,665
[Ben] That one person
should be punished for sins
1449
01:11:42,665 --> 01:11:44,300
that I think
are more widely shared.
1450
01:11:44,300 --> 01:11:45,601
That's not justice.
1451
01:11:46,802 --> 01:11:49,972
It was really about
making this individual
1452
01:11:49,972 --> 01:11:53,442
bear responsibility in order
to protect the reputation
1453
01:11:53,442 --> 01:11:55,811
of the nation
and international science.
1454
01:11:57,346 --> 01:11:59,048
This gets
to the question
1455
01:11:59,048 --> 01:12:00,716
of what is the scientific
community actually about?
1456
01:12:00,716 --> 01:12:01,817
Because one of the most
remarkable things
1457
01:12:01,817 --> 01:12:03,085
in the summit...
1458
01:12:03,085 --> 01:12:04,787
was that JK was on stage.
1459
01:12:04,787 --> 01:12:06,088
And immediately afterwards,
1460
01:12:06,088 --> 01:12:07,956
the dean
of Harvard Medical School,
1461
01:12:07,956 --> 01:12:11,060
George Daley, came on the stage
and his message was,
1462
01:12:11,060 --> 01:12:13,629
"It's too bad that
the first step was a misstep.
1463
01:12:15,898 --> 01:12:17,666
But it's not the last step."
1464
01:12:17,666 --> 01:12:19,535
I think
it was extremely important
1465
01:12:19,535 --> 01:12:22,771
that he be heard
and would establish principles
1466
01:12:22,771 --> 01:12:26,041
that would be global
and would be uniform.
1467
01:12:26,041 --> 01:12:30,512
Progress over the last
three years suggests
1468
01:12:30,512 --> 01:12:34,817
that it is time
to define a rigorous,
1469
01:12:34,817 --> 01:12:38,420
responsible
translational pathway
1470
01:12:38,420 --> 01:12:40,389
towards such trial.
1471
01:12:41,790 --> 01:12:43,826
[Antonio] The disaster
lasted about five minutes
1472
01:12:43,826 --> 01:12:46,028
before somebody
grabbed the reins and said...
1473
01:12:47,129 --> 01:12:49,431
"Okay, now we're on this path,
right?"
1474
01:12:49,431 --> 01:12:51,066
Like JK
is thrown to the wolves.
1475
01:12:51,066 --> 01:12:52,968
It's a ritualistic thing.
1476
01:12:52,968 --> 01:12:54,837
We're gonna
sacrifice him...
1477
01:12:54,837 --> 01:12:57,406
so that we can continue
with the plan.
1478
01:12:57,406 --> 01:12:59,608
Is there a chance
that this gene therapy
1479
01:12:59,608 --> 01:13:00,976
is gonna extend my life,
1480
01:13:00,976 --> 01:13:02,978
or is it only for people
being born now?
1481
01:13:02,978 --> 01:13:06,815
Well, we have demonstrations
in animals of aging reversals.
1482
01:13:06,815 --> 01:13:08,584
Yeah, I have to cut
a check I bet, right?
1483
01:13:08,584 --> 01:13:11,954
It's who you know.
That's how you live forever...
1484
01:13:12,988 --> 01:13:14,590
[George]
JK, didn't really do
1485
01:13:14,590 --> 01:13:16,392
any technological innovation.
1486
01:13:16,392 --> 01:13:21,497
He was just willing to be
the martyr that came first.
1487
01:13:21,497 --> 01:13:26,001
So, I'm relieved that--
that the conversation
1488
01:13:26,001 --> 01:13:28,170
could go up a notch now,
we just have to ask
1489
01:13:28,170 --> 01:13:30,706
how we can improve on it
next time.
1490
01:13:30,706 --> 01:13:32,508
-Thank you so much.
-[audience cheering]
1491
01:13:32,508 --> 01:13:34,743
Also The Wolverine claws,
I'm up for those, too.
1492
01:13:34,743 --> 01:13:36,478
Thank you for being here.
1493
01:13:36,478 --> 01:13:37,846
George Church, everyone.
1494
01:13:37,846 --> 01:13:39,148
We're all going
to live forever....
1495
01:13:39,148 --> 01:13:41,417
[George] Quite frankly,
1496
01:13:41,417 --> 01:13:43,485
the goal is to make
a backup for the planet.
1497
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:47,189
If we have humans
in multiple places
1498
01:13:47,189 --> 01:13:49,691
in the universe,
it reduces the chances
1499
01:13:49,691 --> 01:13:51,160
that we will all die.
1500
01:13:52,861 --> 01:13:56,131
And we have radiation issues
with a colony in space
1501
01:13:56,131 --> 01:13:58,734
because we are exposed
to all sorts of things
1502
01:13:58,734 --> 01:14:01,904
that damage DNA
and we can make that human
1503
01:14:01,904 --> 01:14:05,073
radiation resistant
with engineering the genome.
1504
01:14:05,073 --> 01:14:08,844
It's just you need
to put in the kind of effort
1505
01:14:08,844 --> 01:14:11,547
that we put
into the physics of propulsion.
1506
01:14:11,547 --> 01:14:17,920
[low droning]
1507
01:14:24,693 --> 01:14:27,529
It's unclear whether
He Jiankui broke any laws.
1508
01:14:27,529 --> 01:14:29,231
That doesn't really
matter in China, you know,
1509
01:14:29,231 --> 01:14:31,767
if they want to manufacture
a law that you broke,
1510
01:14:31,767 --> 01:14:34,503
they can do that
and they do, do that.
1511
01:14:34,503 --> 01:14:35,838
Please remember that
1512
01:14:35,838 --> 01:14:39,174
while there may be
vocal critics...
1513
01:14:39,174 --> 01:14:41,109
there are many silent families
1514
01:14:41,109 --> 01:14:44,980
who have seen a child
suffer from genetic disease
1515
01:14:44,980 --> 01:14:48,050
and should not have to suffer
that pain again.
1516
01:14:48,050 --> 01:14:52,087
They may not be the director
of the [indistinct] Center
1517
01:14:52,087 --> 01:14:55,023
quoted by the New York Times,
but they are known
1518
01:14:55,023 --> 01:14:57,025
as authorities
on what is right.
1519
01:14:57,025 --> 01:14:58,527
Why?
1520
01:14:58,527 --> 01:15:00,195
Because
it's their life on the line.
1521
01:15:11,607 --> 01:15:13,509
[Ryan]
The future that JK saw
1522
01:15:13,509 --> 01:15:17,713
was correcting diseases...
1523
01:15:17,713 --> 01:15:19,815
one by one
1524
01:15:19,815 --> 01:15:21,517
generation after generation.
1525
01:15:22,184 --> 01:15:24,553
So that you could eradicate...
1526
01:15:26,288 --> 01:15:29,858
diseases that have
haunted many families.
1527
01:15:30,959 --> 01:15:33,762
And I hope in doing this
1528
01:15:33,762 --> 01:15:36,031
that I'm not going to give...
1529
01:15:36,031 --> 01:15:38,200
license to JK or defend him
1530
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,302
in ways he shouldn't be
defended for.
1531
01:15:40,302 --> 01:15:42,804
But also that
I should be fair to him.
1532
01:15:42,804 --> 01:15:47,042
And it's a difficult line
to draw here sometimes.
1533
01:15:47,042 --> 01:15:51,580
[somber music playing]
1534
01:15:55,684 --> 01:15:58,854
Given that investors
already reached out to JK
1535
01:15:58,854 --> 01:16:01,590
after all of this went down,
1536
01:16:01,590 --> 01:16:04,092
that there's already
a clinic advertising
1537
01:16:04,092 --> 01:16:05,961
that you can buy
1538
01:16:05,961 --> 01:16:10,299
genetically modified
children as a service.
1539
01:16:10,299 --> 01:16:12,868
I think it would be
putting our heads
1540
01:16:12,868 --> 01:16:14,603
really deep in the sand
to think that--
1541
01:16:14,603 --> 01:16:17,673
that isn't already happening.
1542
01:16:25,614 --> 01:16:29,718
[metal clanking]
1543
01:16:29,718 --> 01:16:33,288
[somber piano instrumental]
1544
01:16:45,233 --> 01:16:47,869
Six drops for this one.
1545
01:16:49,805 --> 01:16:50,973
One.
1546
01:16:52,007 --> 01:16:53,141
Two.
1547
01:16:55,243 --> 01:16:56,612
Three.
1548
01:16:56,612 --> 01:16:59,715
It's hard to criticize
medical technology, right?
1549
01:16:59,715 --> 01:17:01,750
I mean, people live
much longer than they used to.
1550
01:17:01,750 --> 01:17:04,953
It used to be you have ten kids
and five of them would die.
1551
01:17:08,056 --> 01:17:10,058
Five big circles,
15 seconds...
1552
01:17:11,193 --> 01:17:12,961
swabbing around your nose.
1553
01:17:12,961 --> 01:17:15,897
On the other hand, if
you look around at the world
1554
01:17:15,897 --> 01:17:17,299
and how we engineer it...
1555
01:17:18,266 --> 01:17:20,402
sometimes it's ugly, right?
1556
01:17:20,402 --> 01:17:22,037
I mean...
1557
01:17:23,972 --> 01:17:25,307
a concrete parking lot...
1558
01:17:25,307 --> 01:17:28,844
or a meadow in the forest,
like, which is more beautiful?
1559
01:17:30,712 --> 01:17:32,180
[groans and sniffs]
1560
01:17:32,814 --> 01:17:34,049
Two.
1561
01:17:35,217 --> 01:17:36,385
Three. Okay.
1562
01:17:36,385 --> 01:17:39,354
So we gotta wait
15 minutes
1563
01:17:39,354 --> 01:17:41,089
and we'll know
if we have COVID.
1564
01:17:41,089 --> 01:17:44,259
So, if we have the power
to control our genome
1565
01:17:44,259 --> 01:17:46,695
are we gonna turn it
into a parking lot...
1566
01:17:48,063 --> 01:17:49,998
for people's ideas
for whatever genetic change
1567
01:17:49,998 --> 01:17:51,933
they want to make,
you know.
1568
01:17:52,868 --> 01:17:55,003
Their evidence is that...
1569
01:18:00,142 --> 01:18:01,443
it could get ugly.
1570
01:18:17,893 --> 01:18:19,461
[Ben]
I think that on the horizon
1571
01:18:19,461 --> 01:18:21,463
are projects
of commercialization
1572
01:18:21,463 --> 01:18:24,266
that are poised
to transform human life
1573
01:18:24,266 --> 01:18:26,802
in the name of profit.
1574
01:18:29,304 --> 01:18:31,473
It will create
not just opportunity,
1575
01:18:31,473 --> 01:18:33,241
but also responsibility
1576
01:18:33,241 --> 01:18:35,977
because if you've got
the opportunity
1577
01:18:35,977 --> 01:18:39,314
to modify your child
to make them healthier,
1578
01:18:39,314 --> 01:18:42,150
protect them from disease,
1579
01:18:42,150 --> 01:18:44,886
it's only another
five or $10,000.
1580
01:18:44,886 --> 01:18:48,256
Isn't that money well spent
on the future of my child?
1581
01:18:56,832 --> 01:18:59,501
But there is no end to that
sense of responsibility.
1582
01:18:59,501 --> 01:19:03,138
There's always a better
because after all,
1583
01:19:03,138 --> 01:19:04,973
that's what these
technologies are about,
1584
01:19:04,973 --> 01:19:07,175
making people better.
1585
01:19:08,443 --> 01:19:12,180
[wind whooshing]
1586
01:19:19,154 --> 01:19:20,789
[Antonio] Of course,
investors are rushing in.
1587
01:19:20,789 --> 01:19:22,357
Technology's a great way
to make money.
1588
01:19:22,357 --> 01:19:25,293
You have control,
molecular control...
1589
01:19:26,495 --> 01:19:28,864
over the makeup
of the human body.
1590
01:19:29,531 --> 01:19:31,133
Molecule by molecule.
1591
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:33,268
It's worth a ton of money.
1592
01:19:36,138 --> 01:19:37,773
It's just the beginning.
There's something else.
1593
01:19:37,773 --> 01:19:39,508
And it's already
brewing somewhere...
1594
01:19:40,976 --> 01:19:42,410
in some lab,
they've already got it.
1595
01:19:43,178 --> 01:19:44,446
Can you hear me now?
1596
01:19:48,316 --> 01:19:52,554
I have to show something
from [indistinct].
1597
01:19:52,554 --> 01:19:54,823
But, John,
what is your view
1598
01:19:54,823 --> 01:19:57,092
just on the ethics
1599
01:19:57,092 --> 01:19:59,928
of genetically
modified humans?
1600
01:20:03,064 --> 01:20:06,168
[tense music playing]
1601
01:20:45,407 --> 01:20:50,512
♪
1602
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:30,385
♪
1603
01:22:07,589 --> 01:22:12,260
♪
119672
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