All language subtitles for Getting.Away.With.Murders.2021.1080p.WEBRip.x264-RARBG-English

af Afrikaans
ak Akan
sq Albanian
am Amharic
ar Arabic
hy Armenian
az Azerbaijani
eu Basque
be Belarusian
bem Bemba
bn Bengali
bh Bihari
bs Bosnian
br Breton
bg Bulgarian
km Cambodian
ca Catalan
chr Cherokee
ny Chichewa
zh-CN Chinese (Simplified)
zh-TW Chinese (Traditional)
co Corsican
hr Croatian Download
cs Czech
da Danish
en English
eo Esperanto
et Estonian
ee Ewe
fo Faroese
tl Filipino
fi Finnish
fr French
fy Frisian
gaa Ga
gl Galician
ka Georgian
de German Download
el Greek
gn Guarani
gu Gujarati
ht Haitian Creole
ha Hausa
haw Hawaiian
iw Hebrew Download
hi Hindi
hu Hungarian
is Icelandic
ig Igbo
id Indonesian
ia Interlingua
ga Irish
it Italian
ja Japanese Download
jw Javanese
kn Kannada
kk Kazakh
rw Kinyarwanda
rn Kirundi
kg Kongo
ko Korean
kri Krio (Sierra Leone)
ku Kurdish
ckb Kurdish (Soranî)
ky Kyrgyz
lo Laothian
la Latin
lv Latvian
ln Lingala
lt Lithuanian
loz Lozi
lg Luganda
ach Luo
mk Macedonian
mg Malagasy
ms Malay
ml Malayalam
mt Maltese
mi Maori
mr Marathi
mfe Mauritian Creole
mo Moldavian
mn Mongolian
sr-ME Montenegrin
ne Nepali
pcm Nigerian Pidgin
nso Northern Sotho
no Norwegian
nn Norwegian (Nynorsk)
oc Occitan
or Oriya
om Oromo
ps Pashto
fa Persian
pl Polish
pt-BR Portuguese (Brazil)
pt-PT Portuguese (Portugal)
pa Punjabi
qu Quechua
ro Romanian
rm Romansh
nyn Runyakitara
ru Russian
gd Scots Gaelic
sr Serbian
sh Serbo-Croatian
st Sesotho
tn Setswana
crs Seychellois Creole
sn Shona
sd Sindhi
si Sinhalese
sk Slovak
sl Slovenian
so Somali
es Spanish Download
es-419 Spanish (Latin American)
su Sundanese
sw Swahili
sv Swedish
tg Tajik
ta Tamil
tt Tatar
te Telugu
th Thai
ti Tigrinya
to Tonga
lua Tshiluba
tum Tumbuka
tr Turkish
tk Turkmen
tw Twi
ug Uighur
uk Ukrainian
ur Urdu
uz Uzbek
vi Vietnamese
cy Welsh
wo Wolof
xh Xhosa
yi Yiddish
yo Yoruba
zu Zulu
Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,520 8,000 Nazi personnel served here. 2 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:14,640 Auschwitz, 3 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,760 the most comprehensively-designed mass extermination concept 4 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,880 in the history of mankind. 5 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,280 - In 1944 came an order 6 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,720 that we're going to be taking out 7 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,080 from the ghetto, and, 8 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,600 they started sending transport to take us to Auschwitz. 9 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,680 And when we arrived, 10 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,280 men and boys separate a queue, 11 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,320 women and children, another queue. 12 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,760 And we moved forward and, 13 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,240 then we came to three high-ranking officers. 14 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:05,680 Mengele was one of them. 15 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,280 And they ask you your age, 16 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,040 looked at you, how fit you are. 17 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:14,720 I was 14 then. 18 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,440 And 180 of the children after 182 19 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:22,640 went to their death, 20 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,440 to the gas chambers with other people. 21 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,000 And then they gave us the number on the arm. 22 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,960 We lost our name from that day onwards, B-7608. 23 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,800 Every prisoner in Auschwitz had a number. 24 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,280 The Auschwitz camp complex 25 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:55,680 covered several miles 26 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,480 and consisted of Auschwitz I, 27 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,800 which was the prisoner of war camp 28 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,680 and the administrative headquarters. 29 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,880 Monowitz, or Auschwitz III, 30 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,760 which provided a slave labor force 31 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,720 for the giant IG Farben chemical factory. 32 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,280 There were also dozens of sub camps. 33 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,600 But the most notorious camp of all was Auschwitz II, 34 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,800 which became better known as Birkenau. 35 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,000 The other purpose-built death camps were 36 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,400 within Nazi-occupied Poland. 37 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,600 But Auschwitz, although on the soil of defeated Poland, 38 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,960 was at the time within the borders 39 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,280 of the greater German Reich. 40 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,720 - This is one of the most important pictures 41 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,080 from the Auschwitz album. 42 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,680 It shows the moment of the selection. 43 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,520 The spot from this picture 44 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,440 is right there behind us, the ramp, the platform. 45 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,120 This is one of the SS doctors, 46 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:07,280 conducting the selection. 47 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,920 In front of him, group of men waiting for that, 48 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,120 for the selection process. 49 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,760 The one that stood in front of the doctor, 50 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,320 somebody old, you can see that, cane, white hair. 51 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,360 People that are old, babies, handicapped, 52 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,680 almost all were sent to the gas chambers, 53 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,080 killed straight away. 54 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,960 They were taken this way, 55 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,920 and they walked to the end of the ramp. 56 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,360 It's this road, down there, at the end of the tracks. 57 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,880 There were two gas chambers and crematoria, two and three. 58 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,640 From the selection place down there to the end, 59 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,120 it was 10-minutes walk only. 60 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,440 - So, this is where most of the 1.1 million people walked. 61 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:48,520 - Yeah. 62 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,680 - Every day, we see trains arriving 63 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,400 and we knew on the left-hand side, 64 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,840 all the people were walking, they went to gas chamber. 65 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,360 There were four gas chambers 66 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,680 and four crematoriums, day and night working. 67 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,360 - These are the remains of the gas chamber 68 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,120 and crematorium number two. 69 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,560 They were underground, they were all hidden, the rooms. 70 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,680 Germans did on purpose, of course. 71 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,560 There was thousands of people select to die 72 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,960 and they all had to strip. 73 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,240 There were hangers on the walls, there were benches, 74 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,000 so they were told to leave their stuff together. 75 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,440 - A few hundred people went into a gas chamber, and then, 76 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,440 they shut the gate on the, it was all underground, and, 77 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,680 SS men, gas masked, 78 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,760 put the gas in and within about 15 minutes or 10 minutes, 79 00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,360 they were all dead. 80 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,336 - They were told that they're gonna have showers. 81 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,320 They could see even the shower heads in that room. 82 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,440 The shower heads, of course, were fake. 83 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,560 That room was used as the gas chamber. 84 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,120 To kill 2000 people, 85 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,280 it used to take about 20 minutes, 86 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,880 using for that, of course, the Zyklon B. 87 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,520 Women, kids, men, in that one room 88 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,680 that had only 210 square meters of surface. 89 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,080 People were like cattle squeezed together. 90 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:26,216 It was a very painful death. 91 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,240 They were vomiting, choking, suffocating. 92 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,480 After they were killed, after they were murdered, 93 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,000 the gas chamber had to be ventilated first. 94 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:36,080 When this was done, 95 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,880 the members of the Sonderkommando had to go there. 96 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,920 They were given orders to clear the gas chamber. 97 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,480 They had to take the bodies out. 98 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:43,736 But the members of the Sonderkommando 99 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,440 were not collaborating with the general. 100 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,280 They were the prisoners of Auschwitz, 101 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:48,920 forced to do that job. 102 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:51,800 Among them, there were many Jews. 103 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,480 So when they were sent to the gas chambers, 104 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,880 many of them have found people that they knew. 105 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,040 They have found bodies of their friends, 106 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,040 cousins, sisters, brothers. 107 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:05,640 They had to take their bodies out to the crematorium. 108 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,520 And then of course, first, if they had found, 109 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,336 they had to take off the jewelry from the bodies, 110 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,440 rings, necklaces, they had to extract the gold teeth. 111 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,800 They shaved the head from the women's heads 112 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,720 and then they started burning the corpses. 113 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,600 It was like a factory. 114 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,680 Well organized, very systematic way of killing people. 115 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,880 This is one of the ponds for the human ashes, David. 116 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,800 And the ponds like this one 117 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,480 were also next to the other gas chambers. 118 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:44,936 Next to the gas chamber number two, 119 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,480 next to the gas chamber three. 120 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,360 Not always they dump the ashes to the ponds. 121 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,800 Sometimes they just put the ashes on the tracks 122 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,640 and dump them to the rivers. 123 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,520 Next to Auschwitz, we have two big rivers, Sola and Vistula. 124 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,120 - So here are the remains 125 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,760 of literally tens of thousands of people. 126 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,600 Yes, of course. 127 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,080 - Eventually I was chosen to work on agriculture, 128 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:18,560 with two horses. 129 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,000 For fertilizer, they used to bring us sacks from the, 130 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:26,240 gas chambers, 131 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,960 burned the bones. 132 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,360 And I used to put my hand in 133 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:33,880 and threw it on the floor. 134 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,160 I could feel the bones in my hand. 135 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,720 - Around you, you see now the remains 136 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,640 of some of the warehouses they called Canada. 137 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,680 So this is where the jail was kept. 138 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,880 Shoes, suitcases, thousands of personal belongings 139 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,040 the Jews were bringing with them to the camp. 140 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,000 So those things that were in a good condition were sent 141 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,800 to Germany to the Reich and they were reused. 142 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,520 Random prisoners were picked to do this job. 143 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,800 - This part of Auschwitz-Birkenau was called Canada, 144 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:19,560 simply because the prisoners had heard 145 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,120 that Canada was a nice place to live. 146 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,520 - I came to Canada in, I think it was April, 1944, 147 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,120 just as this thing was built, in fact, 148 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,520 all these huts were completely new. 149 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,440 My hut was the first hut here. 150 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,920 And so there were two huts 151 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,440 because were a day shift at the night shift, 152 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,600 and there were 800 of us. 153 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:49,080 So we were accommodated in these two huts. 154 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,480 And down here were the men. 155 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:54,120 The men's duty was to bring the stuff 156 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,520 from the train to Canada. 157 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,200 Let me just show you, 158 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,280 'cause that's a useful thing to see. 159 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,760 Here, you see people disembarking from the train, okay? 160 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,680 Some with the bundles, as you can see. 161 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,760 So some people are carrying the bundles. 162 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,240 So they were told to leave everything behind. 163 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,840 That luggage was brought by these men 164 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,080 of the Canada commando, 165 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,000 and that was then brought to Canada, 166 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,760 where we did the sorting. 167 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,480 - So most of the people coming in here 168 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:26,880 will not have known what was gonna happen to them. 169 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,760 - People had no conception whatsoever. 170 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,680 People walking into a building 171 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,120 of the gas chamber had no idea 172 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:35,520 that it was a gas chamber. 173 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,560 It said to disinfection. 174 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,280 He said, 'You're going to be disinfected. 175 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,720 "Please put your clothes together, 176 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,960 "bundle your shoes together so they don't get lost." 177 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,200 That's what these men of the Canada were supposed 178 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:49,800 to tell the people. 179 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,000 And they had to tell them 180 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:52,880 because the SS here were standing, 181 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,720 waiting for them to say that. 182 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,600 That's one of the Canada group, sorting shoes. 183 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:03,920 That shows you how many shoes they wear. 184 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,280 That particular hut was full of shoes 185 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,680 from the bottom to the ceiling. 186 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,840 And that's the overflow of the shoes that are outside. 187 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,040 - So this must be 10,000, 188 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:16,400 at least there... - Thousands. 189 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,160 And then, for years and years after the war, 190 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,080 there were Germans wearing... - Yeah. 191 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,680 - Dead Jew's shoes. - Absolutely. 192 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,520 - Murdered Jew's shoes. - Absolutely. 193 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,400 When I was actually first transferred to Canada, 194 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,080 one of the SS officers, I think it was a man called Pallage, 195 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,760 he just made a very short speech and he said, 196 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,360 "Remember what you're going to witness here. 197 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,360 "And because you are witnesses, 198 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,520 "you'll never be transferred back to the main camp. 199 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,280 "There's only one way out of here, 200 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,440 "and that's through the chimney." 201 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,960 So that, you can imagine, was a big shock. 202 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:57,720 That's how I got to Canada. 203 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:03,880 - The ones that worked here, 204 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,320 the prisoners sorting the belongings, 205 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,360 were aware that just behind the fence on the other side, 206 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,200 the Germans were killing those people. 207 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,760 The thousands of the Jews were coming here, 208 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,360 there were two other gas chambers just behind the fence. 209 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,480 And those that survived Auschwitz 210 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:22,440 and worked here in the Canada warehouses, 211 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,360 they remember that they have seen people in the woods, 212 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,680 down there waiting before they were killed. 213 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,920 This was a very organized, 214 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,600 very systematic way of killing people, 215 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:37,080 on the industrial scale. 216 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,520 - There were three cordons of assessment guarding Auschwitz. 217 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,320 They actually volunteered for the job. 218 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:50,480 They were very cruel. 219 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,680 And then they went home to see their families. 220 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,040 They had a good time at home, and had children. 221 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,680 And then they came back to Auschwitz 222 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,720 and did the same thing again. 223 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,360 - In 1944, at the height 224 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,120 of Auschwitz-Birkenau's mass murders, 225 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,600 the Nazis compiled two contrasting photo albums. 226 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,320 One, of the new arrivals at the death camp, 227 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,400 the other of the holiday camp, 228 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,760 for officers, guards, administrators, 229 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,560 and other Auschwitz complex personnel 230 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,280 to relax and enjoy themselves. 231 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:41,640 In one album, 232 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,360 most of the people photographed would be murdered. 233 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,080 In the other album, 234 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,240 most of the people photographed 235 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,240 would get away with those murders. 236 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:30,320 By May, 1944, they were killing 10,000 people a day. 237 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,880 The Nazis murdered 1.1 million men, women, 238 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,320 and children in the Auschwitz complex. 239 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,920 Approximately 7,000 of the butchers responsible, 240 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,760 mainly SS, survived the war, 241 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,840 yet only around 800 were ever prosecuted for war crimes. 242 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,360 Josef Mengele, arguably the world's 243 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,560 most wanted Nazi war criminal, targeted twins, Gypsies, 244 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,760 and dwarfs in particular in Auschwitz. 245 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,560 One of his many horrific experiments 246 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,120 was injecting eyeballs with a dye 247 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:14,800 to try to change the color. 248 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,280 This memorial in Mengele's hometown reads, 249 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,040 "No one can divorce himself 250 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,720 "from the history of his people. 251 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,520 "One should not and must not let history rest 252 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,040 "because otherwise it can rise again 253 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,840 "and become part of the present." 254 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,120 - Josef Mengele, the "Angel of Death," 255 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:51,800 was born and grew up here 256 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,320 and his father was the largest employer. 257 00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,000 And in 1956 when he was living in Argentina, 258 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,120 he was able to go to the German embassy 259 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,560 and get hold of a copy of his birth certificate. 260 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,320 And from that, he was able to obtain an Argentinian passport 261 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,480 in the name of Josef Mengele. 262 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,840 And then allegedly, later that year, 263 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,320 he flew to Switzerland and met with his wife and son, 264 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,320 and from there, sneaked back here to Günzburg 265 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,320 to see all his family and friends. 266 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,280 And then in 1959, when his father died, 267 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,160 he again came back here and was involved 268 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,080 in the wake and the funeral, and apparently, 269 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,200 most of the town knew he was here, all except the police. 270 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,760 And even more extraordinarily, 271 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,920 he actually stayed with some nuns. 272 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,160 Mengele avoided extradition requests 273 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,080 by the West German government 274 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,080 and escaped the Mossad attempt to capture him. 275 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,720 In 1979, he died, aged 67, 276 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,960 after suffering a stroke while swimming in Brazil. 277 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:11,880 His skeleton is stored at the 278 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,360 Sao Paulo Institute for Forensic Medicine, 279 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,560 where it is used for medical experiments. 280 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,600 - Six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. 281 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:52,440 It's hard to comprehend 282 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,560 what six million people actually looks like. 283 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,800 I can only try to compare it to my own understanding. 284 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,000 I come from Yorkshire, which is the UK's largest county. 285 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,760 It takes two hours to drive north to south, 286 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,760 and two and a half hours to drive east to west. 287 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,880 There are over 1,100 cities, towns, villages, and hamlets. 288 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,360 Some, like adjoining cities Leeds and Bradford, 289 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,640 has 1.4 million living there. 290 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,840 Sheffield has 600,000 inhabitants. 291 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,400 In total, the population of Yorkshire 292 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,520 is currently 5.4 million people. 293 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,520 If the Nazis had exterminated 294 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,800 the entire population of Yorkshire, 295 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,080 what would the British government have done? 296 00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,240 There are six million people living 297 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,080 in the US State of Maryland. 298 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,480 If they'd all been massacred by the Nazis, 299 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,800 what would the American government have done? 300 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:10,520 What would the world have done 301 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,520 if the almost six million people living in Denmark 302 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,480 had all been murdered by the Nazis? 303 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,680 At school in the 1960s, just 35 miles from here, 304 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,560 we were told that we British 305 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,760 could never have carried out the Holocaust. 306 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,640 We are civilized and above such things. 307 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,120 On the 16th of March, 1190, 308 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,800 following many weeks of antisemitic riots, 150 Jews, 309 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,640 the entire Jewish population of York, 310 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,600 were massacred, many by their own hands, 311 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,000 at a former castle on this site. 312 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:49,680 Had more Jews lived here, 313 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,080 they too would have been massacred. 314 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,880 Regardless of the actual numbers involved, 315 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,400 that was mass extermination. 316 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:04,160 In 1290, Edward I expelled all Jews from his kingdom 317 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,720 and Jews were only permitted to return 367 years later 318 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,600 when Oliver Cromwell allowed them back. 319 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,800 In the last 2000 years, 320 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,480 at one time or another, 321 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,480 in most European countries, 322 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,720 the Jews have been relentlessly persecuted. 323 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:36,120 The government sent a few 324 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,440 of us congressmen over to see those camps. 325 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,280 And if there's anybody left who wonders 326 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,440 if this war was worth fighting, 327 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,960 well, I wish they could have been along. 328 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,160 There it was, right in front of us, 329 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,640 fascism and what it's bound to lead to, 330 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,200 wherever it crops up. 331 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,840 In Germany, it led to over 400 camps like the ones I saw. 332 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,440 It was the worst thing I ever saw in my life. 333 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,560 - The shock of seeing 334 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,360 can never be taken away, 335 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,880 but is a fact that publicly and officially, 336 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,960 the Allies condemned what we now call the Holocaust, 337 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,240 and what they then just call the extermination of the Jews, 338 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,880 as early as the time of the Battle of Stalingrad, 339 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,560 in the winter of 1942. 340 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,200 And the exiled refugee governments in London 341 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,200 brought up the first set of principles 342 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,520 to punish the Nazis for war crimes. 343 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,640 And the Soviet authorities have been 344 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,600 publishing detailed descriptions of Nazi crimes, 345 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,400 including pogroms, as they called them, 346 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,600 very early in the war, and not just in the press, 347 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,080 but in official statements. 348 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,360 This Allied statement about the extermination of the Jews 349 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,280 was read out in the House of Commons 350 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,560 and there was a memorial, 351 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,040 a moment when Parliament stood in silence, 352 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,360 which it never did, except for the death of a king. 353 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,000 It was a ceremonial moment. 354 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,840 And this was broadcast on some 20 languages on the BBC. 355 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,680 I regret to have to inform the House 356 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,240 that reliable reports have recently reached 357 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,040 His Majesty's Government 358 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,280 regarding the barbarous and inhuman treatment 359 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:34,680 to which Jews are being subjected in German-occupied Europe. 360 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,560 German authorities, not content with denying 361 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,240 to persons of Jewish race in all the territories 362 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,520 over which their barbarous rule has been extended 363 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,560 the most elementary human rights, 364 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,040 are now carrying into effect Hitler's oft repeated intention 365 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:56,960 to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe. 366 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,440 From all the occupied countries, 367 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,200 Jews are being transported in conditions 368 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,360 of appalling horror and brutality to Eastern Europe. 369 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,400 The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation, 370 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,160 or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. 371 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,640 The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned 372 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,960 in many hundreds of thousands 373 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,800 of entirely innocent men, women, and children. 374 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,080 Just months after he made that historic statement, 375 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,880 Anthony Eden received a request 376 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,400 from the Bulgarian authorities 377 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,280 for help with moving 11,343 Jews 378 00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:50,000 from the newly-acquired Bulgarian territories 379 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,480 of Greece and Yugoslavia 380 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,520 to British-controlled Palestine. 381 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,320 He refused. 382 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,600 Many of those Jews ended up instead 383 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,360 in the Treblinka extermination camp. 384 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,400 - United Nations War Crimes Commission 385 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,200 started work at the end of 1943, 386 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,640 at the height of the war, 387 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,360 and began compiling dossiers of evidence 388 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,200 against Nazi and Japanese war criminals. 389 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,920 And then just after the Nazis' surrender, 390 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,040 the four victorious powers in Europe came together, 391 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:29,080 not before time, many would say, 392 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,440 and agreed on a legal process 393 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:37,240 to try the Nazi leadership for the crimes they committed. 394 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,640 And this agreement, this charter then was the legal document 395 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,760 under which the top Nazis were brought 396 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,360 to account at Nuremberg. 397 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,120 Johann Robert Riss was a Wehrmacht sergeant 398 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,840 involved in the massacre of approximately 184 civilians 399 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,960 in a Tuscan town in 1944. 400 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,160 Living in Bavaria after the war, 401 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,240 in 2011, he was sentenced in absentia, 402 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,880 by the military court in Rome, to life imprisonment. 403 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,600 Germany declined to extradite him. 404 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,200 To date, he appears to be at liberty and unpunished. 405 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:25,400 - Churchill, Roosevelt, 406 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,200 and after him, Truman, 407 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,320 were all very supportive of trials. 408 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,440 However, within governments, 409 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,760 there was a certain amount of hostility. 410 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,560 And we know from records 411 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,440 that have been subsequently unearthed and published 412 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,480 that in Britain, for example, 413 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,360 a number of senior civil servants were opposed to trials. 414 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,480 Some described it as victor's justice, 415 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,120 others said it would be counterproductive 416 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,520 and it would push Germany into the hands 417 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,680 of a another would-be Hitler. 418 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,560 And in the US, the objections were slightly different. 419 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,520 But there was certainly a pattern 420 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,160 among a number of senior people 421 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,720 within government to resist the trials. 422 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,760 And it was only overcome by the top leadership. 423 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,200 - Henry Stimson managed the war effort 424 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,160 for Franklin Roosevelt, the Secretary of War. 425 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,240 His own history on war crimes goes back decades before 426 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,040 when he was part of the American team supporting the idea 427 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,520 that a war was itself a crime. 428 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,000 So he was very keen on prosecuting the Nazis 429 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,640 for crimes of aggression. 430 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,400 But he was also, in another way, 431 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,520 strongly opposed to the idea of crimes against humanity. 432 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,200 Because as Stimson told his staff, 433 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,440 he didn't want to see America in the dock 434 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,360 for the lynchings in the south of Blacks, 435 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,440 because they had, as America supported, 436 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,120 the idea that Germany could be prosecuted 437 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,800 for what it had done to its own citizens, the Jews. 438 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,800 And this sense that you had to preserve state sovereignty 439 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,440 against outside's interference was something 440 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,480 that also he was very strong on. 441 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,840 On the other hand, you had Ambassador Pell, 442 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,520 who is a real hero of these issues. 443 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,520 He went public back in Washington and created a huge fuss 444 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,040 and forced the State Department through the press 445 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:26,760 to agree that German crimes against German Jews 446 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,680 should be regarded as a crime. 447 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,360 And when Pell headed off to Europe, 448 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,080 he penned a note to a friend saying, 449 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,600 "We want to make sure after this is all over 450 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,160 "that the Gestapo officers can't sit around in the village, 451 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,600 "having a renaissance and talking of the joys 452 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,880 "of shooting Jews and looting France." 453 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,400 And he says explicitly, "We must make sure 454 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,560 "that the Nazis do not get a romantic revival, 455 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,040 "the way in which the Confederacy managed 456 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,160 "to do in America after the Civil War." 457 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,960 A very telling point to be written in 1943, I think. 458 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,280 As well as Nuremberg, 459 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:06,600 there seemed to be so many other trials focusing 460 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,040 upon the murderous crimes of the Holocaust 461 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:10,800 that it looked as if the Allies 462 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,800 in both East and West Germany were truly determined 463 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,680 to achieve real justice for all the victims 464 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:17,760 of mass slaughter. 465 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:21,720 But an estimation of the immense number 466 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,000 of perpetrators compared to those 467 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,480 who actually stood trial exposes 468 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,040 the minuscule tip of an iceberg. 469 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,000 - People hold up Nuremberg as a shining light 470 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,960 of justice, quite rightly. 471 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,400 And on the other hand, you get arguments, "Oh, well, 472 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,440 "Let's be pragmatic. 473 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,880 "It's too difficult, it's too costly. 474 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,520 "These people might become our friends." 475 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,000 Well, I think what one should remember 476 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,840 is the pragmatists almost succeeded 477 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,560 in preventing Nuremberg from ever happening. 478 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,640 - On Thursday the 18th of October, 1945 in Berlin, 479 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,240 the indictment was lodged with a tribunal. 480 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,000 And a copy of that indictment in the German language 481 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,600 has been furnished to each defendant 482 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,280 and has been in his possession more than 30 days. 483 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,760 The defendants 484 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,040 are to plead guilty 485 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,120 or not guilty for the charges against them. 486 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,480 You must plead guilty or not guilty. 487 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,440 - We're entering Courtroom 600. 488 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,320 So this was the side where the judges were. 489 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,200 There were eight judges, two of every country. 490 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,600 Here's the place where the translators sat. 491 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,080 This is the place where the defendants sat, 492 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,400 and this is the place where the defense councils were. 493 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,680 And here where the tables 494 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,680 where the prosecution teams had its place. 495 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,400 The most basic Nuremberg principle is 496 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,880 that such severe crimes as these mass crimes, 497 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,920 state crimes, crimes against humanity, war crimes, 498 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,880 must not be unpunished 499 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,280 but must be tried before 500 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,760 an international or a national court 501 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,160 in order to document and portray these crimes, 502 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,840 but also, in order to satisfy 503 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,480 the needs of the victims for a certain punishment 504 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,920 of those guilty of these crimes. 505 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,000 There were 21 defendants. 506 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,480 Originally there were 24, but one killed itself. 507 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,160 One, they could not find, it was then later clear 508 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,160 that he was also already dead. 509 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,040 And one was not capable to follow the trial 510 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,120 because he was very ill. 511 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,200 It is much, much more than a show trial, 512 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,280 especially the International Military Tribunal detailed, 513 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,520 portrayed the crime history of Nazi Germany 514 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,120 for the first time. 515 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,120 The tribunal collected evidences, 516 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,480 documents that still are very important 517 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,240 for the research that is done 518 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,920 on the so-called Das Dritte Reich, the Third Reich. 519 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,000 And the guilt, the individual guilt of the accused was very, 520 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,920 very meticulously proven. 521 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,000 When the first trial, 21 were tried, 522 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,760 12 were sentenced to death, and three were acquitted. 523 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,600 And the others, they got long-term 524 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,720 or even lifetime imprisonments. 525 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,880 The idea behind the Nuremberg 526 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,360 trials was to put to try the major war criminals, 527 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,920 not people who were on the lower hierarchy 528 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,920 in the Nazi regime, but those who were responsible 529 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,200 for the organization, for the planning, 530 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,240 and those who benefited most from this criminal system. 531 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,880 Feodor Fedorenko served 532 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,880 at Treblinka extermination camp. 533 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,720 He escaped to the USA in 1949 534 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,040 and became an American citizen. 535 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,640 He retired to Florida, 536 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,280 with its large Jewish population, in 1973. 537 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,240 In December, 1984, Fedorenko became 538 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,960 the first Nazi war criminal living in the USA 539 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,960 to be deported to the Soviet Union. 540 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,520 At his trial in 1986, 541 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,720 he was found guilty of treason 542 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,640 and taking part in mass executions. 543 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,680 He was executed by firing squad in 1987, aged 79. 544 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:46,960 Even though this filming is taking place 545 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,040 75 years after the end of the war, 546 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,000 I was surprised to have the opportunity to speak to someone 547 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,760 who'd actually prosecuted the Nazis at Nuremberg. 548 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,960 - You're now going to hear the presentation 549 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,600 by the prosecution. 550 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,560 - It is with sorrow and with hope. 551 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,400 - This was the tragic fulfillment 552 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,440 of a program of intolerance and arrogance. 553 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,440 Vengeance is not our goal, nor do... 554 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,840 Benjamin Ferencz is the last living participant 555 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,600 to give an eyewitness testimony of those historic trials. 556 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,000 - The slaughter permitted by these defendants 557 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,600 was dictated, not by military necessity, 558 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,920 but by that supreme perversion of thoughtful, 559 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,800 the Nazi theory of the master race. 560 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,240 - The International Military Tribunal was the only one 561 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,280 where the four occupying powers and successful powers, 562 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,480 United States, Great Britain, France, and Soviet Union, 563 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,560 joined together in response to promises which had been made 564 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,840 by President Roosevelt and Mr. Churchill, 565 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,400 that the criminals would be brought to justice. 566 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,960 And that attracted a great deal of attention 567 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,520 and great many reporters. 568 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,400 When that trial was over, the reporters went home. 569 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,080 The United States had decided 570 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,200 that it would conduct another series of trials, 571 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,480 it turned out to be 12 trials, 572 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,440 in order to give a more comprehensive picture 573 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,080 of what had happened, not just a snapshot, 574 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,480 which was the IMT trial itself, 575 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,040 but to explain how it is 576 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,280 that a civilized country like Germany 577 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,080 could not only tolerate this type of atrocity, 578 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,360 which the Nazis were committing, 579 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,320 but would accept it and support it. 580 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,680 - Over and over again, 581 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,520 Hitler asserted his belief in the necessity of force 582 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,200 as the means of solving international problems. 583 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,240 - Just as the international military trial 584 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,760 was coming to an end, I was invited, I would say, 585 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,880 by the Pentagon to go back and join them 586 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,480 for the trials which the army was conducting, 587 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,440 the military commission trials. 588 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,800 I went over to see Telford Taylor. 589 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,720 He had been asked by the president 590 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,240 to set up 12 additional trials. 591 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,120 And my first assignment from Telford Taylor was, 592 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,120 he said, "Look, we have a number of suspects. 593 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,080 "We are holding them in detention. 594 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,920 "We need the evidence, because if you have the suspect 595 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,680 "and no evidence, you've got nothing. 596 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,680 "And you've got the evidence and no suspect, 597 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:32,680 "you've got nothing. 598 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,640 "So we've gotta match together, 599 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:40,000 "proof of crime and the criminal in custody. 600 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,320 "And you provide the evidence for it, 601 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,120 "that'll be your job, okay?" 602 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,120 So I proceeded to Berlin to do that job. 603 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,400 I had a staff of about 50 people, 604 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,280 mostly former German refugees. 605 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,880 Had to speak German perfectly, of course. 606 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,040 And one day, 607 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,200 one of my assistants walks in 608 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,600 and he hands me a pile of papers and he said, 609 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,000 "Look what I found." 610 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,160 And I looked at him. 611 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:13,000 The title on it was 612 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,920 In German is, "Situation Reports," 613 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,480 of a certain group known as Einsatzgruppen. 614 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,520 Their assignment was to murder. 615 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,720 They never used the word "murder." 616 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,240 To eliminate all Jews, 617 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,360 men, women, and children, 618 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,560 without pity or remorse, 619 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,040 to just exterminate them 620 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,560 as you would exterminate vermin. 621 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,280 That was the assignment 622 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,760 of the SS Einsatzgruppen action group 623 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,440 and the four divisions that they had within them. 624 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,320 And that's the job they carried out. 625 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,040 So I sat down with a little adding machine, 626 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,720 I began to add them up. 627 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,360 When I reached a million people murdered, 628 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,560 I said, "That's enough." 629 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,800 I took a sample, I took the next military plane 630 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,960 from Berlin back to Nuremberg. 631 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,480 I met then with Telford Taylor. 632 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,520 I said, "General, we have to put on a new trial." 633 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:18,960 He said, "We can't. 634 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,360 "We have already assigned all the lawyers. 635 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,440 "The Pentagon has already approved the budget. 636 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,200 "They're not inclined to allow any new trials to go on 637 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,040 "and we just can't do it." 638 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,280 Whereabout I blew my cool and I said, 639 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,320 "You've gotta put these people on trial! 640 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,560 "I have in my hand mass murder, 641 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,080 "mass murder on an unparalleled scale. 642 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,640 "We just can't let these people go." 643 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:51,720 And so I guess he noticed my desperation or something. 644 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:53,360 He said, "Well, can you do it 645 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,520 "in addition to your other work?" 646 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,080 And I said, "Sure." 647 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,120 He said, "Okay, you do it." 648 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,800 And so I was appointed by him 649 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,160 as the Chief Prosecutor 650 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,760 and what was later known as the Einsatzgruppen Trial. 651 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,440 - Genocide, the extermination 652 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,360 of whole categories of human beings, 653 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,320 as a foremost instrument of the Nazi doctrines. 654 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,440 It is therefore holy fitting for this court 655 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,920 to hear these charges of international crimes 656 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,360 and to adjudge them in the name of civilization. 657 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,200 The charges we have brought accuse the defendants 658 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,040 of having committed crimes against humanity. 659 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,080 - I rested my case in two days. 660 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,960 Quite remarkable. 661 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,720 Very simple, because I said, "Look, 662 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,880 "I have the evidence here, top secret German evidence. 663 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,280 "I have the defendant there whose name is on this report. 664 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,560 "He was the commander-in-chief there, 665 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,640 "and this is the total reports he sent in." 666 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,000 When I asked Ohlendorf, for example, with my lead defendant, 667 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:10,320 "Do you acknowledge that your unit killed 90,000 Jews?" 668 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,200 He said, "No." 669 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:13,480 I said, "What do you mean, no? 670 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:14,880 "Is that your signature?" 671 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,480 "Yes." 672 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:17,400 "Is it 90,000?" 673 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,240 "Yes." 674 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:19,680 "So how do you say no?" 675 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,200 "Well, some of the men used to brag about the body count. 676 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:25,856 "They wanted to show they killed even more 677 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,840 "than they actually killed." 678 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,400 So I said, "Well, would you say it's 70,000, 679 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,520 "80,000 would be more appropriate?" 680 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,360 "Yeah, yeah, that could be." 681 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,840 And this was Dr. Otto Ohlendorf, well educated man. 682 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,200 All of my defendants had either doctor degrees or high rank. 683 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:46,880 I selected very carefully. 684 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,280 How do you plead to this indictment? 685 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:51,680 Guilty or not guilty? 686 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,400 They put forward as their defense 687 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,720 that they were only obeying orders. 688 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,320 Another one was that the documents were fabricated. 689 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,000 And then some of them even actually went 690 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,320 as far as to say they weren't aware 691 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,120 that these mass murders were taking place. 692 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,480 - Well, let's take a all those excuses one at a time. 693 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,960 One, superior orders, right? 694 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,360 Every German soldier had to carry his own book, 695 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,920 they call a little book manual of his duties. 696 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,640 I had some of 'em, it listed the duties. 697 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:41,560 "You are to obey all legal orders." 698 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,360 Legal orders, it didn't say all orders, 699 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,720 including illegal orders. 700 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,120 I asked a question, "Did they think it was legal 701 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,080 "to murder thousands of children?" 702 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,680 By what stretch of the imagination could 703 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,200 that possibly be legal? 704 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,520 The next argument they came up with, 705 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,560 we didn't do it, of course. 706 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,640 Well, that was refuted by their evidence. 707 00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:09,000 These were secret reports which they had signed 708 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:10,440 and sent to their headquarters. 709 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,400 They're not gonna lie to their headquarters 710 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,160 about what they did, 711 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:16,760 and the headquarters consolidated them. 712 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,000 The only mistake they made there was I found the reports. 713 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,400 And then they said, whatever excuse did they give us? 714 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,120 Well, the one of them, the only time I really got annoyed 715 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,400 in the courtroom was when one of these mass murderers, 716 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,360 whose reports I had, how many Jews they had killed, 717 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,160 he has the gall to say, 718 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:42,320 "Jews are killed? 719 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,720 "I heard it here in this court for the first time." 720 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,400 Oh man, I really just wanna jump over him, 721 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,440 putting a bayonet through his ears. 722 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,360 He'd put it through to the other end, 723 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,520 to improve his hearing. 724 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,280 But otherwise, they said, 725 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,640 you mentioned, two colloquial argument, 726 00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:04,800 that everybody's feeling, "War is war. 727 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,800 "We had to do this because everybody was at war." 728 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,200 They made that argument in a very intelligent way. 729 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:16,280 And it was done by the lead defendant, Dr. Otto Ohlendorf. 730 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,880 Handsome young man, father of five children. 731 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,280 He said, "We did this in self-defense." 732 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,240 "Self-defense, nobody, Germany was not attacked. 733 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,960 "Germany didn't attack, by France, 734 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,640 wasn't attacked by Holland, by Belgium, 735 00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:34,800 "by all the other country. 736 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,240 "Where do you come off with self-defense?" 737 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,040 "Well," he said, "Hitler let us know. 738 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:43,520 "And he knew more than I did. 739 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,400 I couldn't challenge him that Russia planned to attack us. 740 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,520 "Therefore it would be necessary for us 741 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,040 "to preempt that and attack first. 742 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,680 "And that's what we did. 743 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,600 "And I have here expert opinions from German lawyers 744 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,400 "in big bunch of them, saying preemptive self-defense 745 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,960 "is permissible, it is not a crime. 746 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,560 "And so, we were just 747 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,960 "carrying out our patriotic duty wise." 748 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:16,080 And I, of course, countered the arguments 749 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,400 and the judges accepted my arguments, 750 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,840 saying, "That's not a defense at all 751 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,640 "because it's not required by law to preempt anybody. 752 00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:31,720 "And it's a ridiculous and dangerous policy to adapt it." 753 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,360 - We shall establish, beyond the realm of doubt, 754 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:41,120 facts, which before the dark decade of the Third Reich, 755 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,440 would've seemed incredible. 756 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,720 Courts will show that the slaughter committed 757 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,160 by these defendants was dictated 758 00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:53,640 not by military necessity, 759 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,160 but by that supreme perversion of thought, 760 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,080 the Nazi theory of the master race. 761 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,200 - My opening sentence to the court was, 762 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,000 "It is with sorrow and with hope 763 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,960 "that we hear disclose mass murder," et cetera, et cetera. 764 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,840 It was a combination of sorrow for the victims 765 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,640 and hope that we would be able to change it in future. 766 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,360 That was my theme when I opened the trial. 767 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,360 It was my theme when I closed the trial. 768 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,040 My closing statement, I said, 769 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,360 "The defendants in the dark were the cruel executioners 770 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:42,440 "whose terror wrote the darkest page in human history. 771 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,480 "Life was their toy, death was their tool. 772 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,520 "If these men be immuned, 773 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,480 "then law has lost its meaning, 774 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,080 "and man must live in fear." 775 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,760 That was my closing statement. 776 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,520 - On 29 September, 137 days ago, 777 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,440 the prosecution outlined the evidence 778 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:13,720 in support of the indictment, 779 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,680 which has been brought against these defendants. 780 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,760 On 30 September, 1947, 781 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,560 136 days ago, the prosecution rested this case. 782 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,440 In view of the nature of the crimes charged here 783 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,400 and the conclusive documentary proof and support thereof, 784 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,640 the desperate nonsense which you've encountered here 785 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:37,160 during the 21 intervening weeks 786 00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:39,880 may jar the ear but it can hardly surprise the lie. 787 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,800 In summing up this case after four and a half months, 788 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,080 nearly a week for each defendant, 789 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,880 the prosecution sees no necessity for or benefit from 790 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,520 a tedious rehearsal of the details of the record. 791 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,560 - Defendants came out from, one at a time, 792 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,400 from the cellar down below. 793 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,280 There was a little lift going into the courthouse. 794 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:09,240 The doors opened this way, and they would step out. 795 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:14,040 And the judge would say, 796 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,880 "For the crimes of which you all have been convicted, 797 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,800 "this tribunal sentences you death by hanging." 798 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:21,840 Next one, "Death by hanging." 799 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,320 "Death by hanging." 800 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,760 I'm writing it down, and they had 13 of them, 801 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,720 and one after the other, "Death by hanging." 802 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,920 At the Einsatzgruppen trial, 803 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,480 Martin Sandberger was sentenced 804 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,800 to death by hanging for mass murder. 805 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,880 His defense was that he was only responsible 806 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,360 for carrying out a fraction of these killings, 807 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:50,280 which he estimated to be 300 to 350 people. 808 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,400 In 1951, his sentence was reduced 809 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,680 to life imprisonment due to powerful friends intervening. 810 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,160 However, he was released seven years later. 811 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,360 He died in 2010 812 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,880 in a luxury nursing home, aged 98. 813 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:14,640 - They're all equally guilty. 814 00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:18,240 Everyone was a mass murderer or an accessory 815 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,560 to mass murder, beyond any doubt, any, no doubt whatsoever 816 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,920 because every day it was their daily bread. 817 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,200 We had 3000 members of the Einsatzgruppen. 818 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,320 I tried 22, 13 of 'em were sentenced to death. 819 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,920 They were all mass murderers or accessories to mass murder. 820 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,080 They limited the number of defendants I could have 821 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,160 to the 22 seats in the dock, a ridiculous idea. 822 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:42,400 Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous, 823 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,120 from point of view of justice. 824 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,440 So you couldn't talk in terms of justice 825 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,640 on these circumstances, I knew that. 826 00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:50,680 The crimes are so enormous 827 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,440 because people thought they were doing 828 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,800 the right thing for their country. 829 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,840 And that danger still exists and still persists today. 830 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,360 - In the early 1990s, 831 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,080 my parents were running a small 832 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:16,280 conference retreat center 833 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,560 in the farmhouse here for the church. 834 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,800 And we were going to create a small exhibition 835 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:24,200 to say this is important. 836 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,200 These terrible atrocities were a product 837 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,600 of European civilization. 838 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,880 And we need to wake up and understand how that came about. 839 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,360 How does an event 840 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,320 of the scale of the holocaust occur? 841 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,840 And then 50 years later, it wasn't even in our curriculum. 842 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,600 We go through the British education system 843 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,240 and learned nothing about it. 844 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,920 And if we don't 845 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,120 learn about that history, 846 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,920 what chance do we have of learning from it 847 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,520 and ensuring that these kind of 848 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,200 human-made tragedies never happen again? 849 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,280 And so that's the reason that this memorial developed here 850 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,400 in the Nottinghamshire countryside, next to Sherwood Forest. 851 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,840 - So I've got here a copy of the London Agreement 852 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,440 dated the 8th of August, 1945. 853 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,560 And it's between the UK, the USA, 854 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,920 the Provisional Government of the French Republic, 855 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,560 and the USSR. 856 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,200 In article three it says, 857 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,320 "The Signatories shall also use their best endeavors 858 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,640 "to make available for investigation 859 00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:45,720 "of the charges against and the trial before 860 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,840 "the International Military Tribunal 861 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,280 "such of the major war criminals as are not 862 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,040 "in the territories of any of the Signatories." 863 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:56,920 Now this tells me two things. 864 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,440 Now in the film industry, 865 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,200 when you see in a contract, 866 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,280 and somebody's written, "best endeavors," 867 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,800 you know that that person has no intention whatsoever 868 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,800 of carrying out the work they say they're going to do. 869 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,680 And the other point that worries me 870 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,280 is "major war criminals." 871 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:13,680 What is a major war criminal? 872 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,160 Is somebody like a sergeant 873 00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:17,880 who's killed 150 people over two years, 874 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:19,320 is he a major war criminal? 875 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,400 Therefore, is this a get-out clause? 876 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,040 - Absolutely, it's a get-out clause. 877 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,880 The British government certainly had experience 878 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,560 of considering the cost and the scale 879 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,440 of investigating and prosecuting war criminals 880 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,480 on this kind of scale. 881 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,680 After the first World War, 882 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,080 the British government arrested 150 officers 883 00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,400 from the Ottoman Army who'd been involved 884 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,640 in exterminating over a million Armenians 885 00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:54,560 in what we now refer to as the Armenian genocide. 886 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,720 And they detained them on the island of Malta. 887 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:02,520 And in 1921, released them without prosecution. 888 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,720 And in part, that was because 889 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,720 there wasn't a legal framework. 890 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,440 The idea of crimes against humanity, 891 00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,320 which was used to describe the extermination 892 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,920 of the Armenians, was that, it was a concept. 893 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,720 It wasn't embedded in international law. 894 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,200 But the British understood at the time, 895 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:22,920 even if they had the will 896 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,800 to establish this in international law 897 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,000 and create a tribunal to prosecute these crimes, 898 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:34,840 there was a massive cost of investigating and prosecuting. 899 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,720 And so they abandoned the whole idea 900 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,480 and released the Ottoman officers. 901 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,240 In fact, it was the release of those Ottoman officers 902 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:47,320 that set Raphael Lemkin, the Jewish-Polish lawyer, 903 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,880 of thinking about the nature of these crimes. 904 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,480 This was right back in 1921. 905 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:55,920 Also in that same year, 906 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,400 there'd been a trial of an Armenian 907 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,200 called Soghomon Tehlirian. 908 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,760 He was a survivor of some of these atrocities 909 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,440 in the first World War. 910 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,880 And he had pursued and assassinated one 911 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,280 of the architects of the Armenian genocide. 912 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:17,360 Raphael Lemkin was asking himself the question, 913 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:22,440 how is it that these 150 officers of the Ottoman Army 914 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,160 are released without investigation 915 00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:28,160 or prosecution by the British 916 00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:30,040 when they are responsible possibly 917 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,480 for the murder of a million people? 918 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,760 And yet for a survivor of that genocide 919 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,160 to assassinate one of those architects 920 00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:44,120 of that genocide is put on trial for murder. 921 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,360 So you murder a million, you walk away free. 922 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,040 You murder one person, 923 00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:51,400 and you're put on trial, 924 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,680 even as a victim of that genocide. 925 00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:03,960 - In this valley, on the 22nd of August, 1939, 926 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,920 just one week before the Nazi invasion of Poland, 927 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,360 Adolph Hitler gave a speech to leading members 928 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,240 of the German Army, Navy, and Air Force. 929 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,560 And he starts with, "Our strength consists 930 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,800 "in our speed and our brutality. 931 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:17,880 "Genghis Khan led millions of women 932 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,080 "and children to slaughter 933 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,560 "with premeditation and a happy heart." 934 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,960 He says that he doesn't care about 935 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,200 what other European countries think, 936 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,920 but any member of the German armed forces 937 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,120 who criticize this will be executed by firing squad. 938 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,560 He urges them to send to death without compassion men, 939 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,520 women, and children of Polish derivation. 940 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,640 He finishes, "Who, after all, speaks today 941 00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:49,200 "about the annihilation of the Armenians?" 942 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,320 Untold millions of people were murdered by the Nazis 943 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,840 and their collaborators in 22 countries 944 00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:04,200 that were totally unrelated to any normal casualty of war. 945 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,000 Jews, Poles, Russian prisoners of war, 946 00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,560 Roma, the mentally and physically handicapped, 947 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,000 political and religious dissidents, 948 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,200 homosexuals, and many more. 949 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,200 And of the three quarters to one million people 950 00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,960 who enthusiastically carried out these barbaric crimes, 951 00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,960 99% of them were never prosecuted. 952 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,720 They were never even looked for. 953 00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,320 The Allies, America, Britain, France and the Soviet Union, 954 00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,160 all started their pursuit of justice well enough. 955 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,880 But for some reason, they simply stopped, 956 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,160 deciding not to proceed any further. 957 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:47,480 Why? 958 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:56,520 - The American government and perhaps the public 959 00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,480 were deeply divided. 960 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,360 The State Department and in public, Senator McCarthy, 961 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,080 were adamantly opposed to prosecuting the Germans. 962 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,080 They came up with all sorts of excuses 963 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,680 about the Germans who have been in jail, 964 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:11,120 why they should be let out. 965 00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,760 So this process went on up to the late '40s, but by '48, 966 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,440 the State Department had really lost patience. 967 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,160 And with the looming Cold War, 968 00:56:23,240 --> 00:56:27,240 the idea was to rebuild Germany. 969 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,480 And so you can argue, well, maybe we need these scientists 970 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,560 or these bankers or these industrialists 971 00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:33,960 or these skilled people 972 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,320 to rebuild Germany against the communists. 973 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,000 But the answer, the question, really, 974 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,640 for the defenders of this or for the apologists is 975 00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:43,480 why do you think you have 976 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,080 to let out the death squad leaders? 977 00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:50,280 Why do you have to let out the concentration camp guards? 978 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,280 What do you need them for in rebuilding Germany? 979 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,840 And I think that is a very unpleasant reality 980 00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:58,120 that people have to face up to 981 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,640 when looking to Allied policy in the later years. 982 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,840 - In 1948, there is a notorious telegram 983 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,960 which the Commonwealth Office 984 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,720 sends to various commonwealth countries advising them 985 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:18,640 to stop any further new war crimes trials. 986 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,480 And the reason that's given at the time is 987 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,040 what's called political developments in Germany, 988 00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:25,880 which was the government's code 989 00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,400 for the onset of the Cold War. 990 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,560 And we know from subsequent evidence 991 00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,040 that the likes of Australia and Canada 992 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,800 did indeed stop completely for the next 40 years. 993 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,400 Two years later, in 1950, 994 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,840 the Foreign Office sends a note, 995 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,240 and this time, 996 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,000 as well as no new trials, 997 00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,480 they also say that they're going to resist even 998 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,160 any requests for deportations 999 00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,440 of alleged Nazi war criminals to other countries. 1000 00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,680 And the reason they give is one of 1001 00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,880 what I would consider to be staggering indifference. 1002 00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,640 They say, quote, "The wanted man 1003 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,800 "will have been living peaceably 1004 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:12,640 "in this country for many years. 1005 00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:15,360 "How can it be conducive to the public good 1006 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,640 "for him to be deported?" 1007 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:19,320 So if you think about that for a moment, 1008 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:23,600 what they're actually saying is that there is no public good 1009 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,960 in bringing a mass murderer to justice. 1010 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,520 In 1987, the Australian government 1011 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:34,600 set up a special unit to investigate 841 potential suspects. 1012 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,680 It was shut down in 1992 1013 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,120 without a single successful prosecution. 1014 00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,160 The Australian solution to the problem 1015 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,440 of suspected Nazi war criminals was allegedly 1016 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:50,240 to extradite them and make it someone else's problem. 1017 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,360 It was suspected that well over 2000 Nazis 1018 00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,120 were living in Canada. 1019 00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,520 In 1994, the Supreme Court of Canada 1020 00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,480 made the Canadian War Crimes Law unworkable 1021 00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,040 by a ruling in the case of Imre Finta 1022 00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,040 who'd been responsible for sending Jews 1023 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,280 to Auschwitz and other camps. 1024 00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,480 The court stated that even 1025 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:15,800 where the orders are manifestly unlawful, 1026 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,000 the defense of obedience to superior orders 1027 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:20,840 will be available. 1028 00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:26,800 - The Nuremberg principles basically is the principle 1029 00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:31,440 that crimes like these war crimes or crimes against humanity 1030 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,680 shall not be left unpunished. 1031 00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:35,776 This is the most important, 1032 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,760 the core idea behind the Nuremberg principles. 1033 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,920 But it ended in 1949 with the founding 1034 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:43,480 of the German Democratic Republic 1035 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:47,160 and the founding of the Federal Republic of Germany. 1036 00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,400 And from this moment on, the situation became 1037 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,360 that every accused who was involved 1038 00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,320 in a mass killing situation like in a concentration camp 1039 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,480 or in an extermination camp, 1040 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,760 it was necessary to prove very meticulously 1041 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,400 that he willingly, that he decided 1042 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,520 to do a crime. 1043 01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,040 So you could say that a lot of the murderers got away 1044 01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,400 with what they've done in the Second World War. 1045 01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,400 On the 24th of March, 1944, 1046 01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,880 German troops massacred 335 people 1047 01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:37,880 at the Ardeatine Caves in Rome. 1048 01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,520 On the 22nd of September, 1944, 1049 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,600 shortly after Italy's liberation, 1050 01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,480 Pietro Caruso, an Italian citizen, 1051 01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,640 was executed for his part in these crimes. 1052 01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,720 SS Captain Erich Priebke, 1053 01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,480 awaiting trial for his part in the massacre, 1054 01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,440 escaped by the Ratlines to Argentina 1055 01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:41,480 where he lived for 50 years. 1056 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:44,760 The outrage following an interview he gave 1057 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:49,000 on American television led to him being extradited to Italy. 1058 01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,880 In 1996, he was tried in the military court 1059 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,000 and as he admitted his crimes, 1060 01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,400 was found guilty of complicity. 1061 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,440 But the case was thrown out on the grounds 1062 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,840 that the statute of limitations had expired. 1063 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,600 Despite many multiple attempts by Italy and Germany 1064 01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,160 to have him properly incarcerated, 1065 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:18,240 Priebke died in 2013, aged 100. 1066 01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:24,200 Argentina refused his request to be buried next to his wife 1067 01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,480 and the Vatican issued an unprecedented ban 1068 01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,720 in holding his funeral in any Catholic church in Rome. 1069 01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,560 Germany also refused to take the body, 1070 01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,400 which was seized by Italian authorities 1071 01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,000 and disposed of secretly. 1072 01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:55,960 Most of the well known Nazis, 1073 01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:57,960 the generals, they were all caught, 1074 01:02:58,040 --> 01:02:59,800 weren't they, and prosecuted? 1075 01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:03,120 - No, big Nazis got away with it. 1076 01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,480 The Ratline out via the Vatican, 1077 01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,880 via Italy to South America was very successful 1078 01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:10,976 in getting big people out. 1079 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:12,960 The most notorious, obviously, 1080 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:16,000 the one that everyone has heard about is Josef Mengele, 1081 01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,680 who went to South America 1082 01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,480 and was never found and prosecuted. 1083 01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,280 But a lot of former Nazis and perpetrators 1084 01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,440 and people who were guilty of all sorts of things 1085 01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:30,320 stayed within Germany, 1086 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,280 many of them living under their own names, 1087 01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,880 not even bothering to change their identity 1088 01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,680 and simply not being brought to court. 1089 01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:39,960 If you look at the statistics, 1090 01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:44,080 99% of people who killed Jews were never brought 1091 01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,920 to court at all, 99%. 1092 01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,480 If you look at the sheer numbers 1093 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,200 who were involved in carrying out the killings, 1094 01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:53,560 we've got somewhere between three quarters of million 1095 01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,080 and a million people actually involved 1096 01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,840 in killing Jewish civilians. 1097 01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,160 So when you actually look at the statistics 1098 01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:06,160 of who was brought to court, it's pretty pathetic. 1099 01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:10,080 The Allies immediately after the war did a pretty good job. 1100 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:14,200 They tried hard to bring the principal perpetrators 1101 01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,600 to trial in the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal 1102 01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,720 and the Allied successor trials. 1103 01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,680 But it really was the emergence of the Cold War, 1104 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,080 really from 1947-48 onwards when the major splits 1105 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,720 between the west and the Soviet Union become evident. 1106 01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,760 And basically, the fight against communism 1107 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:34,720 became more important for the Americans 1108 01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,040 and the West Germans than trying to deal with Nazism. 1109 01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:40,000 So that's one thing, the Allied attempts 1110 01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,360 just petered out very quickly. 1111 01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,440 The other thing is, I think if you look 1112 01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:48,000 at the three Third Reich successor states, 1113 01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,880 West Germany, East Germany, Austria, 1114 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,320 once they take over their own attempts 1115 01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:58,760 to bring former Nazis to trial, the outcomes are variable, 1116 01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,200 but in every single one of those three cases, 1117 01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:02,760 quite inadequate. 1118 01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,400 If you contrast East Germany and West Germany, 1119 01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:08,760 East Germany instituted a communist state 1120 01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:11,080 that entailed a massive transformation 1121 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,720 of personnel as well as a transformation of structures. 1122 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,000 So if you look at the East German judiciary, 1123 01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:19,800 they trained up new judges, new lawyers, 1124 01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,760 new teachers, for example as well, journalists, 1125 01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:24,960 all those professions. 1126 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:28,680 There was a radical turnover of personnel in East Germany. 1127 01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,200 In West Germany, there is an incredible continuity. 1128 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:37,360 The legal profession is deeply Nazified. 1129 01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:39,280 And in fact, by the late 1950s, 1130 01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,720 some people have argued that there was a renazification 1131 01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,840 evermore former Nazis in the legal profession. 1132 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,480 So by the 1950s and '60s, 1133 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:50,880 you have a lot of judges, a lot of lawyers, 1134 01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,840 a lot of the police forces actually quite sympathetic 1135 01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,640 to the defendants in court. 1136 01:05:57,720 --> 01:05:59,240 And you can see this in the case 1137 01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,160 of some judgements, for example. 1138 01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:03,720 You can see it in the case of tip-offs given 1139 01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,920 to Nazi perpetrators that they're about to be tried, 1140 01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,320 investigated, and they get out of the country quickly 1141 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,280 or they go underground in some way. 1142 01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,560 So there's a personnel issue in West Germany. 1143 01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,760 But secondly, I think there's a more structural issue, 1144 01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:20,160 which is to do with the choice 1145 01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:24,360 of using the ordinary criminal law definition of murder 1146 01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,480 and not the wider Nuremberg principles. 1147 01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:32,280 And so even if you get a totally anti-Nazi young lawyer, 1148 01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:36,000 that lawyer has to operate within the confines 1149 01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:39,000 of the legal system and the definitions 1150 01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,520 as they are in the penal code. 1151 01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:46,200 And so what this means is that it's simply inappropriate 1152 01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,080 to putting mass murder on trial. 1153 01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:53,640 State sponsored, initiated state-ordained violence, 1154 01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:56,520 you cannot put that kind of genocide on trial 1155 01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:58,920 under the ordinary definition 1156 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,120 of individually-motivated murder. 1157 01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,760 Walter Rauff designed the gas fans 1158 01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,000 that killed Jews, communists, and the disabled. 1159 01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:13,096 Thought to have been responsible 1160 01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:15,480 for nearly 100,000 deaths, 1161 01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:19,320 he was arrested in 1945, but escaped. 1162 01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:23,200 Later, he worked for the Syrian intelligence 1163 01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,880 and an early incarnation of the Israeli Secret Service 1164 01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,080 who helped him escape to South America. 1165 01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:34,400 He died unpunished in Chile in 1984, aged 77. 1166 01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:53,200 - After the war, 1946, 1167 01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:55,120 Central Europe, particularly around 1168 01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,320 the Allied zones of occupation, 1169 01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,960 they resemble a giant refugee camp. 1170 01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:03,200 So you have somewhere in the region 1171 01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:05,960 of two million individuals, 1172 01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,120 all of whom are trying to register as displaced persons. 1173 01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:13,080 Now, to be a displaced person, you get food and shelter. 1174 01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:16,200 And the only condition that the Allies applied was 1175 01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:19,680 that you couldn't be a Nazi collaborator. 1176 01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:23,120 And in order to accept any individual, 1177 01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:24,880 they had to be screened. 1178 01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,840 Well, the British applied almost no screening. 1179 01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:29,800 It was entirely perfunctory. 1180 01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,280 And there's also, in many Allied countries, 1181 01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:37,160 particularly in France and in the UK, a huge labor shortage. 1182 01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:41,040 So somewhere in the region of 90,000 individuals 1183 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:42,840 are brought over to the UK 1184 01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:47,040 to fill gaps in mainly manual jobs, 1185 01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:51,200 and most of them are Baltic, Ukrainian, Polish nationals. 1186 01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:56,000 And then a further 90,000 are brought over under a 1187 01:08:56,080 --> 01:09:00,320 resettlement scheme for brave Polish resistance fighters. 1188 01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:06,120 And of course, secreted within both of these caters 1189 01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,840 are a number of individuals who were responsible 1190 01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:12,960 for perpetrating crimes under the Nazis. 1191 01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:15,960 Just to give an indication as to 1192 01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:18,840 how little the British authorities were bothered 1193 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:20,160 about who was coming in, 1194 01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:23,200 there was a story that we heard 1195 01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:25,320 from Baroness Ryder of Warsaw, 1196 01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:28,040 or Sue Ryder of Sue Ryder Homes, as she then was, 1197 01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:31,360 in 1946, she's a relief worker working 1198 01:09:31,440 --> 01:09:34,080 in a displaced person's camp. 1199 01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,760 And she's processing a number of Baltic nationals through, 1200 01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,640 and she notices that they all have a scar 1201 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,800 under their right armpit in the same place. 1202 01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,520 And of course, what she realizes is this is 1203 01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:50,600 where their SS tattoo had been 1204 01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,480 and where they all had it removed. 1205 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:55,680 And she raises this and she's told 1206 01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:57,560 to effectively mind her business 1207 01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:00,000 and get on with the job of processing. 1208 01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,880 What action did they take against them? 1209 01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:03,720 - I think one thing to remember is 1210 01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:08,640 that the UK government operated from the late '40s onwards 1211 01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:11,600 for the next 40 years under a perfect cover. 1212 01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,200 They didn't have to do anything 1213 01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:16,360 because there was no law in the UK 1214 01:10:16,440 --> 01:10:19,880 which would enable the prosecution of these individuals. 1215 01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:21,840 So it was only in the '80s, 1216 01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:26,520 after a major parliamentary fight over five years 1217 01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,160 that we actually got the War Crimes Act 1218 01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:32,120 in this country enacted in 1991. 1219 01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:33,536 - There's something I wanna talk about, 1220 01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,160 which I'm sure you know well. 1221 01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:37,720 These are two newspapers. 1222 01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:40,080 This is the Times, which I'll give to you. 1223 01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:41,640 And this is The Telegraph, 1224 01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:46,080 and it's dated Wednesday, the 4th of March, 1987. 1225 01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:48,200 And they're talking here in the editorials, 1226 01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:50,840 so there's nobody's name attached to it. 1227 01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:54,600 And it's discussing pressure from various individuals 1228 01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:57,200 and bodies who are asking and making demands 1229 01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:59,600 about the presence of, in Britain, 1230 01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,640 of 17 alleged former Nazis. 1231 01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,280 So there's this bit which I find extraordinary. 1232 01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:07,440 It says, "Nazi hunting has become a new 1233 01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:09,920 "and frankly distasteful blood sport. 1234 01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:12,840 "It is no reflection of antisemitism 1235 01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:15,720 "or the indifference to past atrocities 1236 01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:18,600 "to feel an overwhelming revulsion against the notion 1237 01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,920 "of further war crimes trials almost half a century 1238 01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,560 "after the alleged horrors took place." 1239 01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,000 I can't actually believe they're using that word, 1240 01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:28,080 "alleged horrors." 1241 01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:30,400 And this carries on and it says, 1242 01:11:30,480 --> 01:11:33,120 "There is a futility, a sterility 1243 01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:36,000 "about continuing a search for vengeance 1244 01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:39,520 "beyond the certain limits of time and space." 1245 01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:42,720 And this sort of predisposes 1246 01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:46,280 that there should be a time limit on justice. 1247 01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:48,160 - This is the Times the day before 1248 01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:50,280 the Telegraph article appeared. 1249 01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:54,600 And many of those who opposed any action 1250 01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,440 on Nazi war criminals in this country at the time, 1251 01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:00,160 pitted what was described as 1252 01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:03,280 the Christian God of mercy, 1253 01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:06,040 the New Testament God of mercy 1254 01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:09,320 versus the Old Testament God of vengeance. 1255 01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,160 And it's hard to imagine this appearing in the Times today, 1256 01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,880 but this was the late 1980s. 1257 01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:18,160 And this is just an extract 1258 01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:21,240 from the lead editorial that day, which says, 1259 01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:23,280 "Britain is a Christian country. 1260 01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:26,440 "Its laws enshrine principles of justice tempered 1261 01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,120 "with mercy, not vengeance." 1262 01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:31,800 The undertones of that I think are very clear. 1263 01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,520 Sad to say, the reason why vengeance 1264 01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:36,880 and the idea of vengeance was so powerful is 1265 01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:41,480 that it played into ancient antisemitic tropes 1266 01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:45,960 that the Jews are only out for an eye for an eye, 1267 01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:46,920 tooth for a tooth. 1268 01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:49,320 During the debate in the House of Lords, 1269 01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:53,040 a peer by the name of Lady Saltoun of Abernathy, 1270 01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:57,840 who is also the chief of the Fraser clan, stood up and said, 1271 01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,320 "How can it be justified 1272 01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:03,000 "to allow one group of aliens 1273 01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:07,240 "to pursue their vengeance against another group of aliens 1274 01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:12,320 "for crimes committed 50 years ago in a country far away?" 1275 01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:17,000 And I think more than anything I've ever heard on this, 1276 01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:18,720 I think that summarizes the indifference 1277 01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:20,280 of many on this question. 1278 01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:23,920 Vengeance is a very different thing. 1279 01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:27,360 What did the Nazis and their willing collaborators do? 1280 01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:29,920 They murdered, they committed genocide. 1281 01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,600 And to do the same is vengeance. 1282 01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,600 This is using the one thing that the Nazis denied 1283 01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:41,000 to their victims, the law and the right to law. 1284 01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:43,000 It's using the law 1285 01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:45,920 to give them a fair trial, 1286 01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:51,400 in a system which has got high evidentiary rules, 1287 01:13:51,480 --> 01:13:54,360 to enable them to put their very best defense 1288 01:13:54,440 --> 01:13:56,240 and to let justice take its course. 1289 01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:00,400 Anton Gecas took part 1290 01:14:00,480 --> 01:14:04,600 in executing up to 40,000 Jews and Russian prisoners of war 1291 01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:08,840 in the Baltic states in Belarus during 1941 to 1944 1292 01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:13,480 as a leftenant and the 12th police battalion 1293 01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:16,000 and was awarded the Iron Cross. 1294 01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:21,320 When he saw that Germany was losing, he switched sides. 1295 01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:25,200 He lived in Scotland from 1947 1296 01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:27,400 and worked for the National Coal Board 1297 01:14:27,480 --> 01:14:29,560 and ran a popular bed and breakfast. 1298 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:34,440 Despite the Lithuanian authorities trying to extradite him, 1299 01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:39,240 he died in Edinburgh in 2001, unpunished, aged 85. 1300 01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:44,560 His neighbors in the Scottish capital were Jewish. 1301 01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:50,240 - I was the director of the 1302 01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:55,320 All-Party Parliamentary War Crimes Group from 1986 to 1991. 1303 01:14:55,480 --> 01:14:58,560 And the War Crimes Group was a cross-party group 1304 01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:01,080 of members of parliament and peers 1305 01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:04,200 who were constituted, or constituted themselves, 1306 01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:07,560 in order to pressure the government 1307 01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:09,920 to face up to its responsibility 1308 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:12,960 for Britain not to be a haven for Nazi war criminals, 1309 01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:14,880 that there was a case to answer 1310 01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:16,136 against the number of individuals, 1311 01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,000 that the law should be changed, 1312 01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:21,920 and that a unit should be set up to investigate. 1313 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,400 And following a fairly bloody parliamentary battle, 1314 01:15:26,440 --> 01:15:28,840 an act, the War Crimes Act, 1991, 1315 01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:31,000 was passed to enable this to happen. 1316 01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:33,960 As to what happened afterwards, 1317 01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:37,200 in terms of actual investigations and prosecutions, 1318 01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,520 what we do know is that at its height, 1319 01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:43,680 the Metropolitan Police's War Crimes Unit 1320 01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:47,800 had somewhere in the region of 400 active cases. 1321 01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:50,880 But there was only one successful prosecution. 1322 01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:52,600 There was only one prosecution. 1323 01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:57,120 And the reason that we're here is that for many years, 1324 01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:00,920 this was home to Anthony Sawoniuk. 1325 01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:03,840 This is the Rouel Road estate in Bermondsey. 1326 01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:05,960 He had managed to get himself here 1327 01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:08,320 as part of the Polish resettlement. 1328 01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:10,920 So he arrives in this country in '46 1329 01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:12,960 and he settles in Surrey, 1330 01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:15,120 and he does a number of jobs over the years, 1331 01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,640 from hospital water to ending up as a ticket collector 1332 01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:21,800 at London Bridge Station and living in this estate. 1333 01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:25,440 He retired and got a very nice pension 1334 01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,440 on which he could live out the remainder of his years. 1335 01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,040 - And how many people do we know that he killed? 1336 01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,520 - He was convicted for killing 18 people. 1337 01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:40,400 At his trial, there was testimony 1338 01:16:40,480 --> 01:16:42,120 from an old school friend of his 1339 01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:46,720 who witnessed him murdering 15 women 1340 01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:48,480 who he'd ordered to undress, 1341 01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:50,240 spraying them with machine gun 1342 01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:52,520 and then pushing them into pits. 1343 01:16:53,480 --> 01:16:55,680 There is plenty of evidence, 1344 01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:57,600 but the evidence wasn't strong enough 1345 01:16:57,680 --> 01:16:59,880 on which to mount the charges 1346 01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:03,360 that he was involved in many, many more murders. 1347 01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:06,480 The trial was successful, he was found guilty, 1348 01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:09,480 he appealed, his appeal was thrown out, 1349 01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:14,240 and he ended his final days in prison, dying in 2005. 1350 01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:20,280 - One month after Anthony Sawoniuk was sent 1351 01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:21,600 to prison in Norwich, 1352 01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:24,240 the Metropolitan War Crimes Unit was closed down 1353 01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:25,816 and all the information they'd gathered 1354 01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:28,120 over many years was put into boxes, 1355 01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:31,240 and then those were sealed for, I think, 50 years. 1356 01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:34,680 My feeling is is that somebody 1357 01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:38,160 in the Crown Prosecution Service or the government said, 1358 01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:42,360 "Look, we just spent 6.5 million prosecuting Sawoniuk. 1359 01:17:42,440 --> 01:17:46,960 "So if we were to spend the money prosecuting 10, 20, 30, 1360 01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:50,160 "whatever it was, men, it's going to be very expensive. 1361 01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:51,400 "And why should we do it? 1362 01:17:51,480 --> 01:17:55,320 "It all took place a long time ago, a long way from here." 1363 01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:59,600 So they just buried the information 1364 01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:03,400 and thought that nobody would kick up a fuss, 1365 01:18:03,480 --> 01:18:06,240 which as it turned out, was exactly the case, 1366 01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:09,240 apart from a few people in the Jewish community. 1367 01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:12,240 Therefore, if this was the case, 1368 01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:14,640 justice has a price tag. 1369 01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:31,200 Germany calling, Germany calling. 1370 01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:36,960 I want to discuss with you some topics of current interest. 1371 01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:42,120 Three weeks ago, Mr. Chamberlain predicted the possibility 1372 01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:45,360 of warfare in Scandinavia. 1373 01:18:45,440 --> 01:18:49,520 Nobody in Britain paid any great attention to his prophecy 1374 01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,000 as it lacked the note of novelty. 1375 01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:56,560 Four days ago, under the orders of their supreme commander, 1376 01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:00,440 the German forces established one of the greatest feats 1377 01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:03,640 and in the annals of military history. 1378 01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:11,400 - This is the last resting place of William Joyce, 1379 01:19:11,480 --> 01:19:13,680 better known as Lord Haw-Haw, 1380 01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:15,600 who broadcast Nazi propaganda 1381 01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:17,760 to the British people throughout the war. 1382 01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:21,880 Although a particularly offensive anti-Semite, 1383 01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:25,800 he never actually killed anyone nor incited murder. 1384 01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:28,800 Joyce had falsely obtained a British passport 1385 01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:32,280 simply by lying and this flimsy evidence was enough 1386 01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:34,760 to ensure that he stood trial for treason. 1387 01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,240 The trial judge directed the jury 1388 01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:40,880 that as a matter of law, he was British enough 1389 01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,520 and they need not be concerned anymore. 1390 01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:52,320 He was executed on the 3rd of January, 1946. 1391 01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:57,720 Joyce, who broadcast directly from Germany, 1392 01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:01,160 was actually an American citizen born in Brooklyn, 1393 01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:04,120 and he grew up here in neutral Ireland. 1394 01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:06,880 This is his former school. 1395 01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:11,280 Therefore, how could he possibly be prosecuted 1396 01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:14,680 for treason against the United Kingdom? 1397 01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:34,040 So the British government bend the rules 1398 01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:35,840 so they can hang a man for treason, 1399 01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:38,760 even though that man never actually committed treason 1400 01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:42,840 because they say that was justice and not vengeance. 1401 01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,200 However, for over 40 years, 1402 01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,960 almost 400 suspected Nazi war criminals, 1403 01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:50,960 many of them who had committed multiple murders, 1404 01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:54,080 are not prosecuted because that will be seen 1405 01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:56,880 to be vengeance and not justice. 1406 01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:10,960 Michael Karkoc was a founding member 1407 01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:13,280 and a leftenant in the second company 1408 01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:16,520 of the Ukrainian Self-Defense Legion, 1409 01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:19,480 which he admitted in his Ukrainian language memoir, 1410 01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:22,880 published in the USA in 1995. 1411 01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:27,600 He would later transfer to the Galician, 1412 01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:29,960 14th Waffen SS Division. 1413 01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:33,280 Both units carried out war crimes 1414 01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:36,200 against civilians in the Ukraine and Poland, 1415 01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:39,800 including the 1944 Warsaw Uprising. 1416 01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:45,600 Karkoc escaped to the USA in 1950, 1417 01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,200 lying to American immigration officers. 1418 01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:51,240 In March, 2017, 1419 01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:53,200 the Polish government announced 1420 01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:56,480 that it would be seeking the extradition of Karkoc. 1421 01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,400 However, he died before this happened 1422 01:21:59,480 --> 01:22:02,480 in Minnesota in 2019, 1423 01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:04,760 aged 100 years. 1424 01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:15,080 Karkoc's name surfaced after decades 1425 01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:17,280 of forensic research carried out 1426 01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:20,200 by London-based retired clinical pharmacologist, 1427 01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,000 Dr. Steve Ankier. 1428 01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:25,600 Some members of Karkoc's unit were among 1429 01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:28,520 the 400 suspected Nazi war criminals 1430 01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:30,320 that ended up living in the UK. 1431 01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:33,720 So I asked Stephen to show me where. 1432 01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:39,000 - We're in Oldham because my research showed 1433 01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:40,880 two people who belonged 1434 01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:44,600 to the Ukrainian Self-Defense Legion lived here, 1435 01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:47,880 who were originally, 1436 01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:51,160 I would guess, Ukrainian nationalists. 1437 01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:54,640 And they were against the Soviets 1438 01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:58,800 who had caused a major famine in the early 1930s, 1439 01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:00,080 known as the Holodomor. 1440 01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:04,760 But then they joined the Germans 1441 01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:07,400 and eventually they were turned into killers. 1442 01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:12,800 They were used to violently pacify villages for the Nazis, 1443 01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:16,880 and there were at least two of these killers 1444 01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:18,560 that lived in Oldham. 1445 01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:23,120 One of the killers was very near to where we are now. 1446 01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:25,080 His name was Eurico Parra, 1447 01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:29,000 but my research showed that that wasn't his real name. 1448 01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:33,960 His real name was Ivan Petrovich Lachmanyuk. 1449 01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:37,280 And I discovered this by being in touch 1450 01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,760 with the Ukrainian Security Services. 1451 01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:42,920 They sent me a photograph 1452 01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:46,920 of Ivan Petrovich Lachmanyuk, 1453 01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:52,960 with the address of Eurico Parra, which was very strange. 1454 01:23:54,440 --> 01:23:57,920 And then I found something else in Warsaw, 1455 01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:01,000 I visited the National Remembrance Library there. 1456 01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:05,560 And I eventually dug up an arrest warrant, 1457 01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:09,480 which the Russians issued in 1970 1458 01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:13,200 for Ivan Petrovich Lachmanyuk 1459 01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:15,520 for machine-gunning villages 1460 01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:19,200 in the Volyn region of present-day Ukraine, 1461 01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:21,960 under the command of Michael Karkoc, 1462 01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:23,520 and again on the arrest warrant, 1463 01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:25,680 the address for Eurico Parra. 1464 01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:31,840 - So you got all this information together in a dossier. 1465 01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:33,120 What did you do with it? 1466 01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:36,520 - I gave it to New Scotland Yard. 1467 01:24:37,480 --> 01:24:40,800 Very unfortunate, and these things happen, 1468 01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:44,160 the day that I presented it to them was one day 1469 01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:47,680 before he died in Oldham in a nursing home. 1470 01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:54,480 Well, we're still in Oldham. 1471 01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:56,200 We're in the street where a man 1472 01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:58,920 called Dmytro Wiazewycz lived, 1473 01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:03,640 and he was under the direct command of Michael Karkoc. 1474 01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:07,360 He was almost certainly involved in the destruction 1475 01:25:07,440 --> 01:25:09,600 of villages in the Lublin area 1476 01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:13,920 and the murder of several hundred villagers. 1477 01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:18,480 Dmytro Wiazewycz lived in this house. 1478 01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:21,000 - You actually got to meet this man, then? 1479 01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:24,640 - I didn't get to meet him, I went to his front door. 1480 01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:27,200 My intention was to confront him 1481 01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:30,120 and ask him about his career during the war, 1482 01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:31,760 whether he was involved in war crimes. 1483 01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:35,280 I had a lot of evidence, a lot of rosters with his name on, 1484 01:25:35,360 --> 01:25:37,680 matching date of birth, place of birth, 1485 01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:41,200 with his naturalization certificate. 1486 01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:42,880 Unfortunately, at the time, 1487 01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:44,256 there was a carer there and he was, 1488 01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:46,440 I think, having some medical attention. 1489 01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:47,696 So we weren't allowed to go in, 1490 01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:49,560 but I could hear his voice inside. 1491 01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:53,080 And very, very soon afterwards, he died. 1492 01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:54,720 So that was the end of it. 1493 01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:30,280 - Up until 1290 when Edward I kicked them all out, 1494 01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:34,120 Lincoln was the largest population of Jews 1495 01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:36,600 in the whole of the UK. 1496 01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:40,680 And it just strikes me as really odd 1497 01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:45,720 that a possible killer of Jews chose to come here. 1498 01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:47,400 What's his name? 1499 01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:50,600 - My research showed that there was a man 1500 01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:54,240 called Mikhail Mankel, 1501 01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,400 and he was in the fourth company 1502 01:26:57,480 --> 01:27:00,400 of the Ukrainian Self-Defense Division. 1503 01:27:00,480 --> 01:27:01,800 And there was a massacre 1504 01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:06,680 in a place called Chłaniów and Władysławin 1505 01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:09,600 where 44 villagers were killed. 1506 01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:12,960 They threw grenades into burning houses. 1507 01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:16,200 Amongst the 44 killed were some children. 1508 01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:18,920 There are several rosters 1509 01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:22,880 of members of the Ukrainian Self-Defense Legion, 1510 01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:27,800 which I uncovered, they show where they were at the time, 1511 01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:31,320 the full name of the members of the various companies, 1512 01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:33,920 the date of birth, and also the place of birth 1513 01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:36,000 of members of the Legion. 1514 01:27:36,080 --> 01:27:38,400 And with that information, 1515 01:27:38,480 --> 01:27:42,400 I searched an online directory in the UK 1516 01:27:42,480 --> 01:27:45,560 and looked for the names of various people 1517 01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:50,200 and found several names which matched. 1518 01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:52,200 Like in the case of this particular individual, 1519 01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:54,880 when I looked, he'd actually been long dead. 1520 01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:12,760 We're in Keighley at the moment in Yorkshire, 1521 01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:14,200 it's quite near Selby, 1522 01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:17,760 where there was a camp for these men 1523 01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:21,760 of the Ukrainian Self-Defense Legion. 1524 01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:25,640 And because of that, there are a number 1525 01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:30,720 of potential war crime suspects in this area. 1526 01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:33,880 And the one that I discovered here in Keighley 1527 01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:35,200 was called Ostap Kykawec. 1528 01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,440 He's dead now, but he did serve 1529 01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:43,520 in the fourth company of the 31st Punitive Battalion. 1530 01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:46,280 And had he been alive, 1531 01:28:46,360 --> 01:28:48,480 then he would've been a very suitable case 1532 01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:50,600 to have been referred to the War Crimes Unit 1533 01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:53,560 of the Metropolitan Police Service. 1534 01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,840 Here in Bradford, there were another two suspects. 1535 01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:05,760 There was somebody called Alexander Némirovsky, 1536 01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:09,160 who is recorded as having been a machine-gunner 1537 01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:14,040 in the Warsaw Uprising, working for the Nazis in 1944. 1538 01:29:15,440 --> 01:29:18,720 And then there was a man called Ostap Jastrov 1539 01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:23,640 who was also known as Alexander Baranchuk 1540 01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:27,480 who had his photograph taken with Michael Karkoc 1541 01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:31,240 during the war with some of the other members of the unit. 1542 01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:32,400 - And they're both dead. 1543 01:29:32,480 --> 01:29:34,080 - They're both dead. 1544 01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:35,720 That's very unfortunate 1545 01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:38,440 because they were both very good suspects 1546 01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:41,440 for the War Crimes Unit to have a further look at 1547 01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:45,920 and hopefully some justice would've come. 1548 01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:50,440 But unfortunately, it's another example of justice denied 1549 01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:54,600 and two people potentially having got away with murder. 1550 01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:06,120 - Stephen did very detailed research over many decades, 1551 01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:10,400 and he threw up a lot of suspected war criminals, 1552 01:30:10,480 --> 01:30:13,080 all of them men, no women at all. 1553 01:30:13,160 --> 01:30:16,760 All over the UK and Birmingham, and Leeds, 1554 01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:20,280 and Middlesbrough, Derby, Bolton, Wolverhampton, 1555 01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:24,160 Halifax, Kings Lynn, Rugby, Camden in London. 1556 01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:27,160 Stephen though is an amateur. 1557 01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:28,960 He did hand over all his information 1558 01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:31,640 to the Metropolitan War Crimes Unit. 1559 01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:33,640 But the unit was closed down. 1560 01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:38,640 This has all come about because the powers that be, 1561 01:30:38,720 --> 01:30:40,160 for whatever reason, 1562 01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:42,200 when they should have investigated this 1563 01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:44,640 in the '40s and '50s, they didn't. 1564 01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:49,080 And now what we have is a very shameful chapter 1565 01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:50,840 in British criminal history. 1566 01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:59,160 After the war, the narrative defense 1567 01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:01,160 that many countries adopted was 1568 01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:04,320 that they were forced into their actions against the Jews 1569 01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:08,480 because they were an invaded country and they had no choice. 1570 01:31:10,160 --> 01:31:11,960 Although Bulgaria had Jews deported 1571 01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:15,400 from the newly-occupied Yugoslav and Greek territories, 1572 01:31:15,480 --> 01:31:17,440 they stopped short of delivering 1573 01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:19,400 their own Jews to the Nazis, 1574 01:31:19,480 --> 01:31:22,640 saving the lives of 48,000 people. 1575 01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:29,320 Courageous Danish citizens managed to evacuate 7,220 1576 01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:33,360 of Denmark's 7,800 Jews 1577 01:31:33,440 --> 01:31:35,360 to neutral Sweden by boat. 1578 01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:39,960 Albania, 80% Muslim, 1579 01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:41,800 was the only occupied country 1580 01:31:41,880 --> 01:31:45,640 where almost no Jews died or were handed over. 1581 01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:48,840 And the Albanians heroically protected Jews 1582 01:31:48,920 --> 01:31:51,920 who sought refuge in their country during the war. 1583 01:31:53,480 --> 01:31:56,160 These were the few exceptions. 1584 01:31:57,440 --> 01:31:59,440 The minutes from a Slovak German meeting 1585 01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:02,920 on the 29th of April, 1942 state, 1586 01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:05,960 "For every Jew of Slovak citizenship 1587 01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:08,600 "transferred into the Reich's territory, 1588 01:32:08,680 --> 01:32:10,880 "the German government will be paid an amount 1589 01:32:10,960 --> 01:32:13,360 "of 500 Reichsmarks." 1590 01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:18,680 The death camps were the only German territory they visited. 1591 01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:28,440 - One way to think about the Nazi system 1592 01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:31,160 is that to all intents and purposes, 1593 01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:33,840 it was a morality-free zone. 1594 01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:37,680 We are used, in the West, to seeing our legal systems 1595 01:32:37,760 --> 01:32:40,400 as being built very much on the template 1596 01:32:40,480 --> 01:32:42,240 of the 10 Commandments. 1597 01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:45,920 So we're used to seeing laws such as, 1598 01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:47,040 "Thou shalt not steal. 1599 01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:49,200 "Thou shalt not bare false witness. 1600 01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:50,520 "Thou shalt not murder." 1601 01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:52,320 We're very familiar with these concepts. 1602 01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:56,160 And what the Nazis did is they upended all of that, 1603 01:32:56,240 --> 01:32:59,960 and they said it's okay to steal, it's okay to lie, 1604 01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:01,760 and it's fine to murder. 1605 01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:04,280 And they legislated for all of that. 1606 01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:06,800 So they reversed the 10 Commandments. 1607 01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:10,200 They gave their victims no recourse to law. 1608 01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:12,440 There was no due process. 1609 01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:14,960 And that's why it's so important that 1610 01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:20,080 when we look at how we approach Nazi war criminals, 1611 01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:24,120 we apply to them the justice and the rule of law 1612 01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:26,480 that they denied to their victims. 1613 01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:32,480 Herberts Cukurs, "The Butcher of Riga," 1614 01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:35,720 was a pre-war aviator and national hero 1615 01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:38,520 who directly participated in the mass murder 1616 01:33:38,600 --> 01:33:41,640 of over 30,000 Latvian Jews. 1617 01:33:41,720 --> 01:33:44,280 In one instance, in 1941, 1618 01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:46,640 he ordered an elderly Jewish man 1619 01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:48,880 to rape a young Jewish woman. 1620 01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:51,120 And any prisoners who looked away 1621 01:33:51,200 --> 01:33:53,840 were personally beaten to death by Cukurs. 1622 01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,480 He escaped to Brazil after the war 1623 01:33:57,560 --> 01:34:00,960 where the Soviets tried unsuccessfully to extradite him. 1624 01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,040 He was assassinated by Israeli Mossad agents 1625 01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:09,080 in Uruguay in 1965, aged 64. 1626 01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:13,080 In Latvia today, there are those who insist 1627 01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:15,080 that he was totally innocent 1628 01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:17,360 despite the great many eyewitness statements 1629 01:34:17,440 --> 01:34:19,120 about his crimes. 1630 01:34:19,200 --> 01:34:21,520 For them, he is still a hero. 1631 01:34:22,400 --> 01:34:27,040 A musical about him premiered in Liepaja in 2014. 1632 01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:38,360 What do you know about your grandmother? 1633 01:34:38,440 --> 01:34:40,800 - Her name was Ilse, Ilse Cohn. 1634 01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:42,760 She had just one child, my mother. 1635 01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,320 Her husband had died in 1938 of a heart attack. 1636 01:34:46,400 --> 01:34:47,696 So there was just the two of them left 1637 01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:48,800 as the war approached. 1638 01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:51,440 My mother got out, she got a visa 1639 01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:54,480 as a domestic servant to come to Britain. 1640 01:34:54,560 --> 01:34:56,760 But her mother, my grandmother, couldn't 1641 01:34:56,840 --> 01:35:00,320 because she was considered to be too old, she was 42. 1642 01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:01,720 So she stayed behind. 1643 01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:05,160 So I'll read you what it says. 1644 01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:06,600 "This is the place where Nazis 1645 01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:10,400 "and their assistants killed more than 30,000 Jews 1646 01:35:10,480 --> 01:35:13,520 "from Lithuania and other European countries." 1647 01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:14,480 And among the people 1648 01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:17,040 from other European countries killed here 1649 01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:19,440 was my grandmother who was brought here from Germany 1650 01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:21,160 from her hometown of Breslau. 1651 01:35:22,280 --> 01:35:25,400 The Nazis had invaded here only a few months previously, 1652 01:35:25,480 --> 01:35:27,600 and this was one of their killing fields. 1653 01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:31,680 My grandmother was one of the very first German Jews 1654 01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:35,280 to be deported, to be killed on a site like this, 1655 01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:39,320 on that one day 2000 people were killed here on this site. 1656 01:35:48,760 --> 01:35:50,880 This is one of the burial pits. 1657 01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:52,560 This is where the bodies fell. 1658 01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:56,920 And then in 1943-44, 1659 01:35:57,000 --> 01:35:59,520 they dug them all up again and burnt them 1660 01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:02,240 because the Nazis wanted to get rid of the evidence. 1661 01:36:02,320 --> 01:36:05,640 And you just look at the size of a pit like this. 1662 01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:08,720 It defies the imagination. 1663 01:36:15,040 --> 01:36:17,520 They you are, says it all, four words. 1664 01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:22,600 "The way of death," English, Hebrew, Russian, Lithuanian. 1665 01:36:30,280 --> 01:36:31,920 This is an extraordinary document. 1666 01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:35,200 This is a report that was written by the man 1667 01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:37,280 who was in command of the killing squads here, 1668 01:36:37,360 --> 01:36:39,640 a man called Colonel Karl Jãger. 1669 01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:42,560 And it's one of the very few documents that survived 1670 01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:46,080 that actually spells out in clinical detail 1671 01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:48,640 who was killed when, every day. 1672 01:36:48,720 --> 01:36:50,760 How many Jewish men, how many Jewish women, 1673 01:36:50,840 --> 01:36:52,800 how many Jewish children were killed. 1674 01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:53,960 And he actually says, 1675 01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:57,360 "This is a complete tabulation of executions carried out 1676 01:36:57,440 --> 01:36:59,480 "in the Einsatzkommando 3 zone 1677 01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:02,520 "up to the 1st of December, 1941." 1678 01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:05,520 And he specifies, "These executions were carried out 1679 01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:08,240 "by Lithuanian partisans on my instructions 1680 01:37:08,320 --> 01:37:10,640 "and under my command." 1681 01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:13,360 Let me just show you this one page here. 1682 01:37:13,440 --> 01:37:15,960 29th of November, 1941. 1683 01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:18,160 693 Jewish men, 1684 01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:21,360 1,155 Jewish women, 1685 01:37:21,440 --> 01:37:26,120 152 children from Vienna and Breslau 1686 01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:28,120 killed on this one day. 1687 01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:31,360 And of course one of the 1100 women was my grandmother. 1688 01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:38,680 You go back a month earlier, 29th of October, 9,200 people, 1689 01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:43,120 here on this site of one day. 1690 01:37:43,200 --> 01:37:46,160 These were Jews from the ghetto in Kaunas 1691 01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:48,320 who were marched up here and shot. 1692 01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:50,720 And of those 9,200, look at this. 1693 01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:54,560 4,273 were children. 1694 01:37:55,760 --> 01:38:00,760 Children who were shot here at the Ninth Fort in Kaunas. 1695 01:38:01,160 --> 01:38:03,280 And you go to the end of this report 1696 01:38:03,360 --> 01:38:05,960 and he tots up the total. 1697 01:38:06,040 --> 01:38:08,240 And the grand total, here it is, 137,346 1698 01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:15,480 in less than five months. 1699 01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:24,360 Well, this is a really rather appalling place, 1700 01:38:24,440 --> 01:38:27,600 Paneriai Forest, where tens of thousands 1701 01:38:27,680 --> 01:38:32,440 of people were massacred between 1941 and 1944. 1702 01:38:33,080 --> 01:38:36,720 The have a memorial stone here in Lithuanian Hebrew, 1703 01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:38,800 Russian inscriptions. 1704 01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:39,640 But what's interesting is 1705 01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:43,760 that the original Soviet narrative was that the people 1706 01:38:43,840 --> 01:38:47,440 who were slaughtered here were Soviet citizens. 1707 01:38:47,520 --> 01:38:50,480 So it's quite interesting how history gets rewritten 1708 01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:52,160 over a period of time. 1709 01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:54,000 What this says is that originally, 1710 01:38:54,080 --> 01:38:56,880 this memorial simply paid tribute 1711 01:38:56,960 --> 01:38:59,120 to the 100,000 Soviet people 1712 01:38:59,200 --> 01:39:01,920 who were slaughtered here in the forest. 1713 01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:04,720 Then in 1989, on the initiative, 1714 01:39:04,800 --> 01:39:08,040 it says of the Lithuanian Jewish community, 1715 01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:10,920 one of these granite stones was inserted 1716 01:39:11,000 --> 01:39:13,360 to make it clear that 70,000 1717 01:39:13,440 --> 01:39:15,480 of the people killed here were Jews. 1718 01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,800 And then again, in 2004, another change was made. 1719 01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:22,280 The phrase "Soviet citizens" was covered up 1720 01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:24,680 with a new plaque, just replacing it 1721 01:39:24,760 --> 01:39:29,160 by saying 100,000 people were killed here. 1722 01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:31,360 This is one of the burial pits 1723 01:39:31,440 --> 01:39:34,040 into which they threw the bodies 1724 01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:36,880 of all the people who were killed here. 1725 01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:40,800 "For the Germans, 1726 01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:44,880 "300 Jews are 300 enemies of humanity. 1727 01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:47,160 "For the Lithuanians, 1728 01:39:47,240 --> 01:39:52,240 "300 Jews are 300 pairs of shoes, trousers, and clothes." 1729 01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:57,160 Kazimierz Sakowicz, journalist and witness. 1730 01:39:59,760 --> 01:40:00,960 - The numbers are so huge, 1731 01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:03,160 it's so difficult to come to terms with it, 1732 01:40:03,240 --> 01:40:05,360 to imagine that these were real people. 1733 01:40:05,440 --> 01:40:08,400 What makes this place so special is 1734 01:40:08,480 --> 01:40:09,840 that there are photographs 1735 01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:12,960 of what happened here on the dunes, 1736 01:40:13,040 --> 01:40:15,800 on the edge of these huge ditches that had been dug. 1737 01:40:16,680 --> 01:40:19,280 So their bodies just fell straight into the ditches. 1738 01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:22,480 German officers took the photographs, 1739 01:40:22,560 --> 01:40:26,840 presumably as some kind of grotesque souvenir, 1740 01:40:26,920 --> 01:40:28,200 and then at the end of the war, 1741 01:40:28,280 --> 01:40:30,600 they fell into the hands of Russian authorities 1742 01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:31,976 and they were handed over and used 1743 01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:35,040 in evidence at the Nuremberg war crimes trials. 1744 01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:39,120 These are the photographs that were taken here, 1745 01:40:39,200 --> 01:40:41,760 right here on the beach in December, 1941. 1746 01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:44,440 And you can see the people huddling 1747 01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:46,920 under the guard of the German officers. 1748 01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:48,536 - Yeah, and you can see how cold it is, 1749 01:40:48,560 --> 01:40:50,096 look at their thick coats. - Absolutely, 1750 01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:51,600 this was December. 1751 01:40:51,680 --> 01:40:53,600 And has anybody been identified from them? 1752 01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:56,120 - Yeah, some of them have actually been identified by name. 1753 01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:57,360 I mean, you can see the faces 1754 01:40:57,440 --> 01:41:00,280 and that's what makes it so real. 1755 01:41:14,480 --> 01:41:15,960 And then you look, 1756 01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:18,080 they were made to take their clothes off, taking... 1757 01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:18,960 - And look at all the guards. 1758 01:41:19,040 --> 01:41:19,800 - Look at all the guards, yeah. 1759 01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:21,440 - There's lots, why are there so many? 1760 01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:22,936 - Do you know, some of them came here actually 1761 01:41:22,960 --> 01:41:25,880 to watch what's called execution tourism. 1762 01:41:25,960 --> 01:41:27,600 I mean it's obscene, 1763 01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:29,680 fit like sort of public executions today 1764 01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:32,040 in Iran or in Saudi Arabia. 1765 01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:35,120 - He's got a, some kind of a list of people. 1766 01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:37,760 - Yes, exactly, exactly, a list of people. 1767 01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:42,960 And worse and worse, worse and worse. 1768 01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:46,200 - So in this one, all of them are very young. 1769 01:41:46,280 --> 01:41:48,720 She's 17 or 18. - In her teens, yeah, yeah. 1770 01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:50,880 - They're totally naked, and they're running. 1771 01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:52,720 You can see she's running, she's running. 1772 01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:54,160 It's like they're doing it 1773 01:41:54,240 --> 01:41:56,640 for some extraordinary titillation... 1774 01:41:56,720 --> 01:41:58,616 - That they are being made to humiliate themselves. 1775 01:41:58,640 --> 01:41:59,960 - Of the people who killed them. 1776 01:42:00,040 --> 01:42:00,800 - Exactly. - I mean they, 1777 01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:02,336 because they're all young, they're getting off on it. 1778 01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:04,520 And then, and then they're gonna kill them. 1779 01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:05,720 - Totally obscene. 1780 01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:08,320 And then, 1781 01:42:09,480 --> 01:42:12,360 this is literally moments before they're shot. 1782 01:42:12,440 --> 01:42:14,560 - So let's have a look at this, this is, 1783 01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:15,480 so there's that edge, so... - They're looking out 1784 01:42:15,560 --> 01:42:17,040 over the sea, aren't they? 1785 01:42:17,120 --> 01:42:19,080 Almost exactly on this spot, I thought. 1786 01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:20,920 - So what's the next... 1787 01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:23,600 - And then the next, oh, it's, and this, I mean... 1788 01:42:23,680 --> 01:42:25,136 - Oh, God, that's them dead. - Do you know what's 1789 01:42:25,160 --> 01:42:26,160 happening here? 1790 01:42:26,240 --> 01:42:28,400 This is a guy who walks along 1791 01:42:28,480 --> 01:42:29,680 and he kicks the bodies, 1792 01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:32,360 those who hadn't fallen at the moment of their death. 1793 01:42:32,440 --> 01:42:34,440 He goes on, he's called the kicker. 1794 01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:35,560 - The kicker. - The kicker. 1795 01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:40,640 There are hundreds. 1796 01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:42,480 - Exactly. - They're all... 1797 01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:44,680 - Under our feet. - Buried here. 1798 01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:54,960 Over 200,000 Jews were killed in the Baltic countries 1799 01:42:55,040 --> 01:42:58,480 of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. 1800 01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:01,480 In each country, the Einsatzgruppen were helped 1801 01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:03,480 by willing local citizens. 1802 01:43:07,160 --> 01:43:10,200 Almost all of those who enthusiastically played 1803 01:43:10,280 --> 01:43:13,280 their murderous part were never prosecuted. 1804 01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:17,920 They were never even questioned. 1805 01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:41,360 In 1945, 1806 01:43:41,440 --> 01:43:43,680 after killing Robin Lustig's grandmother 1807 01:43:43,760 --> 01:43:48,480 and the other 137,000 Jews in Lithuania, 1808 01:43:48,560 --> 01:43:52,840 former SS Officer Karl Jãger returned to live in Germany. 1809 01:43:53,720 --> 01:43:56,720 All the time, he used his real name. 1810 01:43:57,560 --> 01:44:00,960 He was eventually arrested in March, 1959 1811 01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:03,440 after 14 years of freedom. 1812 01:44:18,040 --> 01:44:21,960 - One of the earliest cases of the Central Office, 1813 01:44:22,040 --> 01:44:24,440 The Central Office had been established 1814 01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:27,800 on December 1st, 1958 1815 01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:30,840 and the 14th case 1816 01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:34,960 is the case against Karl Jãger. 1817 01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:37,400 That's one of our index cards. 1818 01:44:37,480 --> 01:44:41,280 You can see he was responsible 1819 01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:44,720 for the Einsatzkommando 3 1820 01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:49,000 within the task force A in Lithuania. 1821 01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:52,680 And what you can see here is the evidence 1822 01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:57,520 against his deeds with Jews killed. 1823 01:44:57,600 --> 01:45:01,800 And what you can see is that he was in prison 1824 01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:04,320 and then he committed suicide 1825 01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:08,480 by hanging himself in the night in June, 1959. 1826 01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:15,600 We have seen that a lot of Nazi criminals, war criminals, 1827 01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:20,920 have committed suicide just to avoid being convicted. 1828 01:45:34,920 --> 01:45:38,040 All these boxes, how many boxes in total? 1829 01:45:38,120 --> 01:45:41,320 - It's about 50,000. 1830 01:45:42,320 --> 01:45:47,320 And altogether, it's dealing with this criminal past, 1831 01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:50,440 what has been done, what was not possible, 1832 01:45:50,520 --> 01:45:55,520 what has been overlooked over political constraints 1833 01:45:55,800 --> 01:45:58,520 in investigating these crimes. 1834 01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:01,600 All that is here in these boxes. 1835 01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:05,280 And all together, we have here 7,600 cases 1836 01:46:05,360 --> 01:46:08,360 since 1958, here in this room. 1837 01:46:10,760 --> 01:46:12,640 This is the Central Office 1838 01:46:12,720 --> 01:46:15,800 for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes 1839 01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:19,160 and our task is to prepare cases 1840 01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:23,720 before German public prosecutors' offices and courts 1841 01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:27,080 when it comes to murders committed by Nazi criminals. 1842 01:46:28,160 --> 01:46:29,720 In the mid of the '50s, 1843 01:46:29,800 --> 01:46:32,800 there was a trial in the city of Ulm, 1844 01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:36,520 which is really nearby here from Ludwigsburg, 1845 01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:39,200 as Einsatzgruppen trial. 1846 01:46:39,280 --> 01:46:44,240 And this trial made two things obvious for the public. 1847 01:46:44,320 --> 01:46:47,880 There are still a lot of crimes not yet investigated 1848 01:46:47,960 --> 01:46:52,080 or properly investigated by German authorities. 1849 01:46:52,160 --> 01:46:54,720 And we need a central institution. 1850 01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:58,160 We can't leave it to the public prosecutors 1851 01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:01,280 or courts that are only responsible 1852 01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:04,520 for crimes committed in their area 1853 01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:06,920 or for defendants living there. 1854 01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:12,000 So this procedural system was not fit for mass crimes 1855 01:47:12,440 --> 01:47:15,760 that had been committed outside of Western Germany. 1856 01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:22,840 The idea is to deal with all national socialist crimes 1857 01:47:22,920 --> 01:47:27,240 that had been committed in Europe or North Africa. 1858 01:47:27,320 --> 01:47:30,000 So where German troops had been, 1859 01:47:30,080 --> 01:47:31,840 that's the scene of the crime. 1860 01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:34,200 And then the next step is to look 1861 01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:37,920 where are the people responsible for these crimes? 1862 01:47:38,000 --> 01:47:39,640 And of course, after the war, 1863 01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:44,720 they were not only in Germany, but all over the world. 1864 01:47:45,040 --> 01:47:48,120 And so we took steps to make sure 1865 01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:51,400 to find the whereabouts of these people. 1866 01:47:53,480 --> 01:47:55,560 The Ludwigsburg office was involved 1867 01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:59,560 with the 16-month Sobibor trial in 1965. 1868 01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:03,520 Alfred Ittner was sentenced to just four years 1869 01:48:03,600 --> 01:48:05,040 for participating in the murder 1870 01:48:05,120 --> 01:48:07,880 of approximately 68,000 Jews. 1871 01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:13,080 Erich Fuchs was sentenced to four years 1872 01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:17,320 for participating in the murder of at least 79,000 Jews. 1873 01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:22,120 Franz Wolf was sentenced to eight years 1874 01:48:22,200 --> 01:48:24,000 for participating in the mass murder 1875 01:48:24,080 --> 01:48:26,600 of at least 39,000 Jews. 1876 01:48:29,040 --> 01:48:31,040 Six other defendants charged 1877 01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:34,520 with the same crimes were acquitted. 1878 01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:39,560 - A lot of evidence, of course, 1879 01:48:39,640 --> 01:48:41,440 was not accessible for us 1880 01:48:41,520 --> 01:48:44,440 because most of the crime scenes were 1881 01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:49,520 behind the Iron Curtain and a lot of documents had fallen 1882 01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:53,120 in the hands of the Red Army and were now in Moscow 1883 01:48:53,200 --> 01:48:55,400 or in Minsk and other cities, 1884 01:48:55,480 --> 01:48:59,720 and during the Cold War, really hard to get. 1885 01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:00,720 Also in the beginning, 1886 01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:02,400 there were a lot of difficulties 1887 01:49:02,480 --> 01:49:07,200 in recruiting adequate personnel for the Central Office. 1888 01:49:07,280 --> 01:49:10,920 And adequate means people that are really fit 1889 01:49:11,000 --> 01:49:13,560 and eager to deal with these crimes. 1890 01:49:13,640 --> 01:49:15,920 And it's true that in the beginning, 1891 01:49:16,000 --> 01:49:19,680 lots of public prosecutors, 1892 01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:23,560 police officers, and even judges in office 1893 01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:26,880 in the Federal Republic had been 1894 01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:30,640 in the same office already during the Third Reich. 1895 01:49:32,360 --> 01:49:34,920 - In 1958, the Ludwigsburg Institute meant 1896 01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:39,360 that you could do federally-coordinated investigations 1897 01:49:39,440 --> 01:49:43,600 of Nazi crimes, and that assisted massively 1898 01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:47,640 in acquiring evidence and coordinating investigations 1899 01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:49,560 and spreading the net much wider. 1900 01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:51,480 But it only had a fairly small staff. 1901 01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:53,720 So even that was relatively limited. 1902 01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:58,080 But the other thing that changed in the late 1950s, 1903 01:49:58,160 --> 01:50:02,320 early 1960s, was the significance of the Cold War. 1904 01:50:02,400 --> 01:50:04,840 Now there is this real competition 1905 01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:07,080 between East Germany and West Germany, 1906 01:50:07,160 --> 01:50:09,560 a competition between the two regimes 1907 01:50:09,640 --> 01:50:13,480 and East Germany, as part of this new Cold War era, 1908 01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:16,200 starts criticizing West Germany 1909 01:50:16,280 --> 01:50:19,120 for having former Nazis in high places, 1910 01:50:19,200 --> 01:50:21,360 pointing to those big Nazis 1911 01:50:21,440 --> 01:50:23,640 who are in Adenauer's own government. 1912 01:50:23,720 --> 01:50:27,160 So the first federal chancellor of West Germany, 1913 01:50:27,240 --> 01:50:31,040 Konrad Adenauer, included in his government people 1914 01:50:31,120 --> 01:50:34,800 who had played a significant role under Nazism. 1915 01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:37,960 Hans Globke, his chief aide in his chancellery, 1916 01:50:38,040 --> 01:50:40,480 was the guy who had written the official commentary 1917 01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:42,840 on the Nuremberg laws for Hitler. 1918 01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:44,560 Theodor Oberlãnder, 1919 01:50:44,640 --> 01:50:46,400 who was his minister for refugees 1920 01:50:46,480 --> 01:50:48,360 and expellees from Eastern Europe, 1921 01:50:48,440 --> 01:50:50,576 knew all about Eastern Europe because they'd been out there 1922 01:50:50,600 --> 01:50:53,600 in the war alongside the Einsatzgruppen, 1923 01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:55,200 alongside the killing squads, 1924 01:50:55,280 --> 01:50:59,040 trying to deal with racial reconfigurations 1925 01:50:59,120 --> 01:51:00,960 during the Holocaust. 1926 01:51:01,040 --> 01:51:03,960 So East Germany starts pointing the finger 1927 01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:06,000 at people in high places in West Germany. 1928 01:51:06,080 --> 01:51:08,400 This is embarrassing for West Germany. 1929 01:51:08,480 --> 01:51:10,800 So they want to show that actually, 1930 01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:14,720 they are genuinely dealing with the Nazi past. 1931 01:51:14,800 --> 01:51:17,360 However, I think it's really crucial here 1932 01:51:17,440 --> 01:51:21,720 to say it's not West Germany putting Nazis on trial. 1933 01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:25,080 It's a few key individuals. 1934 01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:27,760 Very significant here is Fritz Bauer, 1935 01:51:27,840 --> 01:51:30,600 the attorney general of the land of Hessen, 1936 01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:33,400 who is socialist and Jewish, 1937 01:51:33,480 --> 01:51:35,200 and had to go into exile 1938 01:51:35,280 --> 01:51:37,720 to save his own life during the Third Reich. 1939 01:51:37,800 --> 01:51:41,960 He comes back and he's determined to prosecute former Nazis. 1940 01:51:42,040 --> 01:51:44,480 But I think it's very, very important to point out 1941 01:51:44,560 --> 01:51:48,040 that he did this against incredible opposition 1942 01:51:48,120 --> 01:51:50,040 in high places, in the government, 1943 01:51:50,120 --> 01:51:53,120 in the political and elite circles. 1944 01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:55,280 And it was Fritz Bauer who was determined 1945 01:51:55,360 --> 01:51:57,000 to put Auschwitz on trial. 1946 01:51:57,080 --> 01:51:59,440 And it was Fritz Bauer who gave the tip-off 1947 01:51:59,520 --> 01:52:02,600 to Mossad about Eichmann's whereabouts, 1948 01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:06,720 so that it would be the Mossad who kidnapped Eichmann 1949 01:52:06,800 --> 01:52:09,840 and took him to Jerusalem to put him on trial in Israel 1950 01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:12,840 because Fritz Bauer said if Eichmann came back to Germany, 1951 01:52:12,920 --> 01:52:15,200 he would not get the kind of trial 1952 01:52:15,280 --> 01:52:17,800 and conviction that he deserved. 1953 01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:24,520 Adolf Eichmann was a key executioner 1954 01:52:24,600 --> 01:52:28,080 of the Nazis extermination program. 1955 01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:32,440 After the war, he escaped to Argentina via the Ratlines, 1956 01:52:32,520 --> 01:52:36,840 finding work as a department head with Mercedes-Benz, 1957 01:52:36,920 --> 01:52:40,920 a company that, with the use of 40,000 slave laborers, 1958 01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:43,440 had become rich under the Nazis. 1959 01:52:45,280 --> 01:52:48,640 He was tracked down in 1960 by Mossad agents 1960 01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:50,720 and taken to Jerusalem for trial. 1961 01:52:51,960 --> 01:52:56,640 His defense of only following orders was rejected. 1962 01:52:56,720 --> 01:53:00,560 He was found guilty and executed in 1962. 1963 01:53:08,400 --> 01:53:10,600 - Eichmann should be here. 1964 01:53:12,760 --> 01:53:15,160 Eichmann. 1965 01:53:15,240 --> 01:53:16,880 - So many people. 1966 01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:18,280 - Yeah, we have more than 1967 01:53:18,360 --> 01:53:22,200 720,000 names here. 1968 01:53:22,280 --> 01:53:24,680 - 720,000 names. 1969 01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:27,320 - But not only defendant suspects, 1970 01:53:27,400 --> 01:53:32,400 but also witnesses that are mentioned in the files. 1971 01:53:33,160 --> 01:53:35,640 That's really important in order to make sure 1972 01:53:35,720 --> 01:53:40,720 that to put it to back at the exact same spot. 1973 01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:43,920 An index card would look like 1974 01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:47,680 that, we have information concerning 1975 01:53:48,840 --> 01:53:52,280 the person, name, date of birth, 1976 01:53:52,360 --> 01:53:56,160 his rank as SS-Obersturmbannführer. 1977 01:53:57,320 --> 01:54:00,280 We had here the information that he was arrested 1978 01:54:00,360 --> 01:54:04,760 by Israel agents in Argentina in 1960, 1979 01:54:06,640 --> 01:54:11,640 than the result of the trial in Israel. 1980 01:54:11,960 --> 01:54:13,680 - In the case with the Israelis, 1981 01:54:13,760 --> 01:54:17,400 because they snatched him in a very controversial way, 1982 01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:22,440 did you help them, in any case, preparing their evidence, 1983 01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:25,480 or did you step back and leave it to them? 1984 01:54:25,560 --> 01:54:30,000 - The exchange of evidence or legal assistance 1985 01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:33,800 was between the Public Prosecutor's Office in Frankfurt, 1986 01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:36,360 Fritz Bauer, and Israel. 1987 01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:40,520 What we did was to send an observer to the trial 1988 01:54:40,600 --> 01:54:43,240 in order to make sure that evidence 1989 01:54:43,320 --> 01:54:47,920 that is presented to the court could find its way 1990 01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:50,480 in our investigations here. 1991 01:54:50,560 --> 01:54:52,880 And it's really valuable up to today, 1992 01:54:52,960 --> 01:54:54,440 not when it comes to Eichmann, 1993 01:54:54,520 --> 01:54:59,520 but when we look into concentration camp cases today, 1994 01:54:59,720 --> 01:55:03,160 of course, we use the information 1995 01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:06,160 that have been established here or before courts 1996 01:55:06,240 --> 01:55:10,080 in the '60s and '70s when it comes to the crime itself. 1997 01:55:10,160 --> 01:55:12,120 What has happened in that camp, 1998 01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:14,640 how was the organization working, 1999 01:55:14,720 --> 01:55:16,240 who was responsible for what? 2000 01:55:22,400 --> 01:55:26,840 In German law, there's no crime against humanity. 2001 01:55:26,920 --> 01:55:27,920 Why is that? 2002 01:55:28,840 --> 01:55:31,920 - Well, the notion, crime against humanity, 2003 01:55:32,000 --> 01:55:33,880 from a legal point of view, 2004 01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:38,160 was invented in August, 1945 2005 01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:41,960 for the Nuremberg trial. 2006 01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:43,920 And there was a lot of reluctance 2007 01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:48,360 in Western Germany with that trial, 2008 01:55:49,880 --> 01:55:53,400 because of a lot of arguments. 2009 01:55:53,480 --> 01:55:56,520 A political argument was victor's justice, 2010 01:55:56,600 --> 01:55:58,800 the winners of the war, 2011 01:55:58,880 --> 01:56:01,840 only dealing with the crimes committed 2012 01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:04,320 by those who had lost the war. 2013 01:56:04,400 --> 01:56:06,440 And there's a legal argument. 2014 01:56:06,520 --> 01:56:08,360 Since the provisions 2015 01:56:09,320 --> 01:56:13,000 were made in August, 1945, 2016 01:56:13,880 --> 01:56:18,200 after the crime had been committed until May '45, 2017 01:56:19,520 --> 01:56:23,240 that these provisions are 2018 01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:25,440 not legally correct 2019 01:56:25,520 --> 01:56:28,800 because they were applied retroactively. 2020 01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:32,520 And there's a common principle, nulla poena sine lege, 2021 01:56:32,600 --> 01:56:35,040 that you should not apply criminal law 2022 01:56:35,120 --> 01:56:37,720 retroactively to the act. 2023 01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:42,840 So the German approach was, "Let's take the code, 2024 01:56:42,920 --> 01:56:45,680 "the law that was applicable 2025 01:56:45,760 --> 01:56:49,880 "during the crimes up to May, 1945." 2026 01:56:51,400 --> 01:56:54,240 And in that code, we only find notions 2027 01:56:54,320 --> 01:56:57,600 like manslaughter or murder. 2028 01:56:57,680 --> 01:56:59,280 But we do not find notions 2029 01:56:59,360 --> 01:57:02,640 like crimes against humanity or genocide. 2030 01:57:02,720 --> 01:57:06,920 We have to prove a certain contribution 2031 01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:09,720 to a specific killing in order 2032 01:57:09,800 --> 01:57:14,040 to establish individual responsibility or guilt. 2033 01:57:16,480 --> 01:57:19,160 - In 1979, the Americans created 2034 01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:21,480 the US Department of Justice Office 2035 01:57:21,560 --> 01:57:23,280 of Special Investigations, 2036 01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:26,040 headed for many years by Eli Rosenbaum 2037 01:57:26,120 --> 01:57:28,600 to track down Nazis in America. 2038 01:57:30,440 --> 01:57:32,760 In other countries, this work was carried out 2039 01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:35,560 by individuals like Serge and Beate Klarsfeld, 2040 01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:39,440 and most famous of all, Simon Wiesenthal. 2041 01:57:43,200 --> 01:57:45,960 Hermine Braunsteiner was a German SS guard 2042 01:57:46,040 --> 01:57:49,080 who served at Ravensbrück and Majdanek. 2043 01:57:49,160 --> 01:57:50,440 She hanged some women 2044 01:57:50,520 --> 01:57:52,400 and others she killed with her whip. 2045 01:57:53,480 --> 01:57:54,800 She was imprisoned in Austria 2046 01:57:54,880 --> 01:57:56,880 for her activities in Ravensbrück, 2047 01:57:56,960 --> 01:57:59,360 but served just three years. 2048 01:58:00,200 --> 01:58:04,600 She went to the USA in 1959 and became an American citizen. 2049 01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:10,120 Simon Wiesenthal tracked her down and in 1973, 2050 01:58:10,200 --> 01:58:13,280 she became the first Nazi war criminal extradited 2051 01:58:13,360 --> 01:58:15,640 from the USA to West Germany. 2052 01:58:16,840 --> 01:58:19,280 Following a long complex trial, 2053 01:58:19,360 --> 01:58:23,440 she was sentenced in 1981 to life imprisonment 2054 01:58:23,520 --> 01:58:27,040 and died in 1999, aged 79. 2055 01:58:29,120 --> 01:58:32,800 - When you look at the West German cases 2056 01:58:32,880 --> 01:58:35,880 for most of the latter half of the 20th century, 2057 01:58:35,960 --> 01:58:37,800 what's important is finding out 2058 01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:41,800 what the subjective intention of the perpetrator was. 2059 01:58:41,880 --> 01:58:45,600 You generally needed eyewitness testimony to say, 2060 01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:48,760 "I saw this man acting with excess brutality, 2061 01:58:48,840 --> 01:58:53,760 "sadistic intent," or, "he was very viciously anti-Semitic." 2062 01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:55,760 And to have eyewitness testimony, 2063 01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:58,040 you had to bring survivors to court. 2064 01:58:58,120 --> 01:59:01,120 And many of the survivors who had the courage 2065 01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:04,200 to appear in court then found they were mocked, 2066 01:59:04,280 --> 01:59:05,960 humiliated, vilified. 2067 01:59:06,040 --> 01:59:08,560 They had to face up to their former tormentors 2068 01:59:08,640 --> 01:59:10,480 and then see their tormentors go free 2069 01:59:10,560 --> 01:59:12,520 or come away with lenient sentences. 2070 01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:14,760 Whereas they had just had to relive everything 2071 01:59:14,840 --> 01:59:17,520 and then had been humiliated and told 2072 01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:18,976 that they were not telling the truth, 2073 01:59:19,000 --> 01:59:20,576 that they didn't have accurate memories, 2074 01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:22,720 that they couldn't say the date or the time. 2075 01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:26,160 And so this dependence 2076 01:59:26,240 --> 01:59:29,040 on proving subjective intent, 2077 01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:30,920 if you murder efficiently, 2078 01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:34,480 means perpetrators get away with murder, they really do. 2079 01:59:34,560 --> 01:59:39,120 It is not murder to put 300,000 people into the gas chambers 2080 01:59:39,200 --> 01:59:42,480 if you didn't actually individually intend to brutally 2081 01:59:42,560 --> 01:59:45,320 and sadistically murder a single individual. 2082 01:59:48,840 --> 01:59:50,920 How many people have you investigated 2083 01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:54,720 and how many have been prosecuted or convicted? 2084 01:59:54,800 --> 01:59:56,840 - The Central Office has led 2085 01:59:56,920 --> 02:00:00,840 7,600 investigations here 2086 02:00:00,920 --> 02:00:03,840 dealing with such complexes. 2087 02:00:03,920 --> 02:00:08,600 In that time, we had more than 120,000 defendants 2088 02:00:08,680 --> 02:00:12,160 in Western Germany whose cases were linked, 2089 02:00:12,240 --> 02:00:15,560 more or less, to the Central Office. 2090 02:00:15,640 --> 02:00:17,360 When it comes to convictions, 2091 02:00:17,440 --> 02:00:19,880 we have less than 7,000 2092 02:00:21,560 --> 02:00:23,640 at the end, in all 2093 02:00:24,520 --> 02:00:27,280 courts in Western Germany after the war. 2094 02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:30,400 So you see, there were a lot of effort 2095 02:00:30,480 --> 02:00:33,080 when it comes to investigations, looking into people. 2096 02:00:33,160 --> 02:00:36,520 But when it comes to the results as verdicts, 2097 02:00:36,600 --> 02:00:38,600 we have less than 7,000. 2098 02:00:41,840 --> 02:00:44,760 After the war, one of Auschwitz's most brutal 2099 02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:48,040 and sadistic guards, Gottfried Weise, 2100 02:00:48,120 --> 02:00:51,000 worked as a construction manager in Germany 2101 02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:55,120 under his own name, untroubled by his past war crimes. 2102 02:00:56,560 --> 02:00:58,640 - Gottfried Weise was free, 2103 02:00:58,720 --> 02:01:03,760 living in his own town of Solingen, for 40 years. 2104 02:01:04,720 --> 02:01:07,240 He'd been apparently denazified, 2105 02:01:07,320 --> 02:01:11,160 which meant he had to fill in a form, which he did. 2106 02:01:11,240 --> 02:01:15,960 He filled in a form and gave his service record, 2107 02:01:16,040 --> 02:01:21,040 but he left out his time in Auschwitz. 2108 02:01:21,880 --> 02:01:24,000 So it was never found out. 2109 02:01:24,080 --> 02:01:25,960 And that it was very difficult to find him. 2110 02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:30,360 And it took 40 years for him to be apprehended. 2111 02:01:30,440 --> 02:01:32,440 But it was a prolonged trial, don't forget, 2112 02:01:32,520 --> 02:01:34,960 because there were 60 witnesses 2113 02:01:35,040 --> 02:01:36,880 and they all came from all over the world. 2114 02:01:36,960 --> 02:01:40,920 And in parts, the court went to meet the witnesses. 2115 02:01:41,000 --> 02:01:44,160 So it was a really lengthy procedure. 2116 02:01:44,240 --> 02:01:48,840 Eventually, he was actually charged with six murders 2117 02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:51,360 and convicted of five 2118 02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:54,640 specific murders, these were, 2119 02:01:54,720 --> 02:01:58,000 where people were actually there at that point, 2120 02:01:58,080 --> 02:02:01,080 and managed to have a time scale 2121 02:02:01,160 --> 02:02:02,840 and a date when it happened. 2122 02:02:02,920 --> 02:02:04,440 And that was quite difficult. 2123 02:02:07,560 --> 02:02:10,400 I was cross-examined 2124 02:02:10,480 --> 02:02:12,960 for the defense and for the prosecution 2125 02:02:13,040 --> 02:02:15,760 on two days for seven hours. 2126 02:02:15,840 --> 02:02:19,360 Seven hours I was interrogated. 2127 02:02:20,240 --> 02:02:23,960 In a most minute detail. 2128 02:02:24,040 --> 02:02:25,720 For instance, they wanted to know 2129 02:02:25,800 --> 02:02:27,720 the construction of the hut. 2130 02:02:27,800 --> 02:02:32,120 "Were the planks this way or were they that way?" 2131 02:02:33,320 --> 02:02:35,360 This man was on bail 2132 02:02:36,560 --> 02:02:38,640 all the time during this trial. 2133 02:02:38,720 --> 02:02:40,640 He was allowed to live at home. 2134 02:02:40,720 --> 02:02:44,040 I think he was on house arrest or something like that. 2135 02:02:44,120 --> 02:02:47,560 And then came the point of the verdict. 2136 02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:52,600 And as they called him for the verdict, he disappeared. 2137 02:02:55,040 --> 02:02:56,560 Just like that. 2138 02:02:56,640 --> 02:03:00,840 And Interpol was searching all over Europe for him. 2139 02:03:00,920 --> 02:03:03,960 And as fate would have it, 2140 02:03:04,040 --> 02:03:07,240 he fled to Switzerland, 2141 02:03:07,320 --> 02:03:10,760 and had a stroke while he was there 2142 02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:12,520 and was brought to the hospital 2143 02:03:12,600 --> 02:03:16,640 and his identity was obviously found at that point. 2144 02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:18,720 And then Interpol and the police came 2145 02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:20,920 and brought him back to prison. 2146 02:03:24,520 --> 02:03:25,880 - I was born in Western Ukraine, 2147 02:03:25,960 --> 02:03:29,120 in a town called Volodymyr-Volynskyi, 2148 02:03:29,200 --> 02:03:30,360 But in actual fact, 2149 02:03:30,440 --> 02:03:32,040 the Jewish people called it Ludmire 2150 02:03:32,120 --> 02:03:33,840 because it was such a Jewish town. 2151 02:03:33,920 --> 02:03:38,880 The majority of the people in the town itself were Jews. 2152 02:03:40,680 --> 02:03:44,120 The Germans came into our town in 1942, 2153 02:03:44,200 --> 02:03:47,600 and then we had to leave our house. 2154 02:03:48,440 --> 02:03:51,440 And we were all ushered into a ghetto. 2155 02:03:51,520 --> 02:03:52,680 We lived in the ghetto. 2156 02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:56,680 There were 30 people from the whole town that survived, 2157 02:03:56,760 --> 02:03:58,720 nine children, 30 people. 2158 02:03:58,800 --> 02:04:00,880 So 30 people out of how many were... 2159 02:04:00,960 --> 02:04:02,760 - 25,000. 2160 02:04:02,840 --> 02:04:04,200 Yeah, they didn't take them 2161 02:04:04,280 --> 02:04:06,240 to concentration camps, they didn't. 2162 02:04:07,360 --> 02:04:08,560 In actual fact, 2163 02:04:09,520 --> 02:04:12,120 they took people away to 2164 02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:14,560 dig trenches. 2165 02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:20,600 And these trenches, they killed people. 2166 02:04:22,520 --> 02:04:24,720 They just lay down, 2167 02:04:24,800 --> 02:04:26,600 a layer of people, machine gun, 2168 02:04:26,680 --> 02:04:28,040 and layer of people, machine gun, 2169 02:04:28,120 --> 02:04:30,560 and layer people, machine gun. 2170 02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:35,160 His name was Westerheide 2171 02:04:35,240 --> 02:04:38,560 and Westerheide was in charge of our ghetto. 2172 02:04:38,640 --> 02:04:42,480 Anna Altvater was Westerheide's secretary 2173 02:04:42,560 --> 02:04:44,560 and they both were murderers. 2174 02:04:44,640 --> 02:04:48,920 I mean they were responsible for 25,000 Jews. 2175 02:04:49,000 --> 02:04:50,536 Anna Altvater would come in the ghetto, 2176 02:04:50,560 --> 02:04:52,960 and if there was a newly-born baby, 2177 02:04:53,040 --> 02:04:54,040 she would turn it 2178 02:04:55,960 --> 02:04:57,680 upside-down and tear it in pieces 2179 02:04:57,760 --> 02:04:59,960 and throw it in the gutter. 2180 02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:04,360 And she came back to Germany and she was working... 2181 02:05:09,080 --> 02:05:12,000 For the council in charge of youths. 2182 02:05:12,080 --> 02:05:13,880 Can you imagine? 2183 02:05:13,960 --> 02:05:17,320 And Westerheide, he was living somewhere 2184 02:05:17,400 --> 02:05:19,040 on the Swiss border. 2185 02:05:20,480 --> 02:05:23,160 And there was a court case, 2186 02:05:23,240 --> 02:05:24,960 first, I think, in Bielefeld, 2187 02:05:25,040 --> 02:05:27,640 and then I went with my mother the second time, 2188 02:05:27,720 --> 02:05:29,280 it was in Dortmund. 2189 02:05:29,360 --> 02:05:33,480 The questions that the judges were asking 2190 02:05:33,560 --> 02:05:34,720 were absolutely ridiculous. 2191 02:05:34,800 --> 02:05:37,680 "What time of the day was it when he was shooting?" 2192 02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:41,600 "What time did," I mean, we didn't have a watch. 2193 02:05:41,680 --> 02:05:45,680 The problem was the judges were sympathetic to them. 2194 02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:47,040 And what was the verdict, then? 2195 02:05:47,120 --> 02:05:48,840 Not guilty. 2196 02:05:48,920 --> 02:05:51,440 Nothing happened to them, lack of evidence. 2197 02:05:51,520 --> 02:05:53,520 And how many people gave evidence? 2198 02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:55,456 - There weren't many because there weren't many people. 2199 02:05:55,480 --> 02:05:56,240 But your mother gave evidence. 2200 02:05:56,320 --> 02:05:58,160 - Oh yes, because my mother was to the end 2201 02:05:58,240 --> 02:06:02,480 and she spoke German and Polish and all these languages now. 2202 02:06:04,760 --> 02:06:06,720 But what is interesting, 2203 02:06:06,800 --> 02:06:10,320 about a few months or years so earlier, 2204 02:06:10,400 --> 02:06:12,520 there was the first trial, 2205 02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:14,280 which was in Bielefeld, 2206 02:06:15,680 --> 02:06:18,160 and, I think it's Bielefeld, I can't remember exactly name. 2207 02:06:18,240 --> 02:06:19,336 And I went to see the judge. 2208 02:06:19,360 --> 02:06:23,520 It was a youngish sort of German guy, and I said to him, 2209 02:06:23,600 --> 02:06:26,400 "How could you let this man 2210 02:06:26,480 --> 02:06:28,680 "that had so much blood on his hand, 2211 02:06:28,760 --> 02:06:30,120 "how could you let him out 2212 02:06:30,200 --> 02:06:35,200 "and say that he's free and not guilty?" 2213 02:06:35,440 --> 02:06:37,240 So you know what, he turned round, 2214 02:06:37,320 --> 02:06:39,960 this is still, I remember, at that time, 2215 02:06:40,040 --> 02:06:42,320 that killing Jews was legal. 2216 02:06:44,880 --> 02:06:47,000 So that was it, that, and do you know 2217 02:06:47,080 --> 02:06:49,200 what happened to the two of them? 2218 02:06:49,280 --> 02:06:51,400 - No, they went back to their home 2219 02:06:51,480 --> 02:06:53,720 and lived their life. 2220 02:06:53,800 --> 02:06:57,160 And probably, they would start another 2221 02:06:57,240 --> 02:06:59,160 holocaust if they could. 2222 02:07:02,360 --> 02:07:04,640 Johanna Altvater once entered 2223 02:07:04,720 --> 02:07:07,360 a small hospital full of sick children. 2224 02:07:07,440 --> 02:07:10,080 For no reason, she just started throwing them 2225 02:07:10,160 --> 02:07:12,120 from a third-story window, 2226 02:07:12,200 --> 02:07:15,520 killing some and severely injuring others. 2227 02:07:15,600 --> 02:07:20,160 In both trials, in 1978 and again in 1982, 2228 02:07:20,240 --> 02:07:24,600 her defense was that she was only a secretary. 2229 02:07:24,680 --> 02:07:26,960 She was acquitted both times. 2230 02:07:27,040 --> 02:07:31,920 She died in 2003, one week before her 85th birthday. 2231 02:07:40,640 --> 02:07:44,560 - This is a memorial for the Czechoslovak Paratroopers 2232 02:07:44,640 --> 02:07:48,000 who were responsible for the Operation Anthropoid. 2233 02:07:56,360 --> 02:07:59,400 On May 27th, 1942, 2234 02:07:59,480 --> 02:08:02,640 Reinhard Heydrich, who was Hitler's favorite, 2235 02:08:02,720 --> 02:08:05,280 he was one of the highest-ranking Nazis officers 2236 02:08:05,360 --> 02:08:09,040 and one of the architects of the Final Solution. 2237 02:08:10,000 --> 02:08:12,600 He was severely injured right here 2238 02:08:12,680 --> 02:08:15,560 in a botched assassination attempt. 2239 02:08:19,400 --> 02:08:20,920 Heydrich didn't die on the spot. 2240 02:08:21,000 --> 02:08:24,560 He died a week later of sepsis on June 4th. 2241 02:08:42,920 --> 02:08:44,760 - Right now we are standing in a really quiet 2242 02:08:44,840 --> 02:08:47,320 and peaceful place where 2243 02:08:47,400 --> 02:08:52,360 77 years ago stood a village, village of Lidice. 2244 02:08:52,880 --> 02:08:57,280 And this village was razed to the ground by Nazis 2245 02:08:57,360 --> 02:09:00,760 like a revenge for Czechoslovakian soldiers 2246 02:09:00,840 --> 02:09:05,000 assassinating Reinhard Heydrich in May, 1942. 2247 02:09:06,400 --> 02:09:09,960 The Gestapo needed to punish someone. 2248 02:09:10,040 --> 02:09:13,680 So on the ninth of the June, 2249 02:09:13,760 --> 02:09:16,680 the day of the Heydrich's funeral in Berlin, 2250 02:09:16,760 --> 02:09:18,880 the German police came to Lidice. 2251 02:09:20,120 --> 02:09:22,880 173 men were shot, 2252 02:09:26,600 --> 02:09:29,240 the women were taken to Ravensbrück 2253 02:09:29,320 --> 02:09:31,400 concentration camp near Berlin, 2254 02:09:32,480 --> 02:09:36,520 and most of the children were taken to Chełmno in Poland, 2255 02:09:36,600 --> 02:09:38,960 and these children were gassed. 2256 02:09:40,960 --> 02:09:42,840 After the murder of Lidice men, 2257 02:09:44,000 --> 02:09:46,480 the Nazis put explosives 2258 02:09:46,560 --> 02:09:48,440 and everything was razed to the ground 2259 02:09:48,520 --> 02:09:52,200 and nothing was supposed to stay here. 2260 02:09:52,280 --> 02:09:57,280 They wanted to release the Lidice from maps, from history. 2261 02:09:58,680 --> 02:10:01,080 It was their propaganda because they wanted 2262 02:10:01,160 --> 02:10:03,720 to show whole world what happened 2263 02:10:03,800 --> 02:10:07,120 if someone tried to attack Third Reich. 2264 02:10:09,600 --> 02:10:12,080 The people here didn't know 2265 02:10:12,160 --> 02:10:14,640 about the Czechoslovak soldiers. 2266 02:10:16,600 --> 02:10:19,360 This village was absolutely innocent. 2267 02:10:21,800 --> 02:10:25,800 After the war, from 500 people of Lidice, 2268 02:10:25,880 --> 02:10:30,880 only 143 women came back to Lidice 2269 02:10:31,160 --> 02:10:34,040 and only 17 children came back. 2270 02:10:40,720 --> 02:10:42,440 - This is a Baroque church, 2271 02:10:42,520 --> 02:10:45,920 it's called Cyril and Methodius Church, 2272 02:10:46,960 --> 02:10:50,520 and this is the place where the Czechoslovak Paratroopers, 2273 02:10:50,600 --> 02:10:54,120 who were responsible for the Operation Anthropoid, 2274 02:10:54,200 --> 02:10:55,720 this is where they were hiding. 2275 02:10:56,760 --> 02:10:59,040 Nazis performed a large investigation 2276 02:10:59,120 --> 02:11:00,880 after the assassination, 2277 02:11:00,960 --> 02:11:05,960 and they discovered them here on June 18, 1942. 2278 02:11:06,400 --> 02:11:09,400 And it was like a six-hours gun fight. 2279 02:11:11,360 --> 02:11:14,800 Those Czechoslovak paratroopers who were not shot by Nazis, 2280 02:11:14,880 --> 02:11:16,320 they committed suicide. 2281 02:11:16,400 --> 02:11:20,040 And the only one who could have survived was Jan Kubiš, 2282 02:11:20,120 --> 02:11:23,560 but he bled out and died in a hospital later that day. 2283 02:11:51,400 --> 02:11:54,400 Another village, Ležáky, did have a connection 2284 02:11:54,480 --> 02:11:57,400 to the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich, 2285 02:11:57,480 --> 02:12:01,760 as it was used as a hiding place for the paratroopers. 2286 02:12:01,840 --> 02:12:03,720 Apart from two children, 2287 02:12:03,800 --> 02:12:05,440 every inhabitant was murdered 2288 02:12:07,080 --> 02:12:10,000 and the entire hamlet was razed to the ground. 2289 02:12:14,960 --> 02:12:16,256 So were all those who carried out 2290 02:12:16,280 --> 02:12:18,880 the murders captured and punished? 2291 02:12:18,960 --> 02:12:20,200 - No, of course not. 2292 02:12:20,280 --> 02:12:24,480 The most important of them got their trials 2293 02:12:24,560 --> 02:12:28,560 and was executed, but some of them didn't. 2294 02:12:28,640 --> 02:12:30,720 For example, Max Rostock, 2295 02:12:30,800 --> 02:12:34,880 he was a chief of in Kladno. 2296 02:12:34,960 --> 02:12:39,120 He was sent to the death in 1951, 2297 02:12:39,200 --> 02:12:41,240 but communist president of Czechoslovakia, 2298 02:12:41,320 --> 02:12:46,240 Antonín Zápotocký, decided not to execute him, 2299 02:12:46,320 --> 02:12:49,360 and he changed his punishment 2300 02:12:50,720 --> 02:12:53,480 to stay in prison till the end of his life. 2301 02:12:53,560 --> 02:12:56,600 But in 1958, 2302 02:12:56,680 --> 02:13:01,080 the communist regime decided to hire Max Rostock 2303 02:13:01,160 --> 02:13:03,920 to Czechoslovak intelligence service 2304 02:13:04,000 --> 02:13:08,880 because he was a experienced secret agent, German. 2305 02:13:08,960 --> 02:13:13,240 So they hired him and sent him to the West Germany. 2306 02:13:13,320 --> 02:13:15,440 His life was really long 2307 02:13:15,520 --> 02:13:18,120 because he died by age in 1986, 2308 02:13:19,480 --> 02:13:20,560 somewhere in Germany. 2309 02:13:24,920 --> 02:13:26,680 After Heydrich's death, 2310 02:13:26,760 --> 02:13:28,720 Dr. Herta Oberheuser tried 2311 02:13:28,800 --> 02:13:31,760 to recreate sepsis in healthy people, 2312 02:13:31,840 --> 02:13:34,440 cutting them open without anesthetic, 2313 02:13:34,520 --> 02:13:37,760 then rubbing wood dirt or saw dust into the wounds. 2314 02:13:41,080 --> 02:13:44,160 Following the 10-month Nuremberg Doctors' Trial, 2315 02:13:44,240 --> 02:13:47,960 Oberheuser was sentenced to 20 years imprisonment. 2316 02:13:48,040 --> 02:13:53,000 She served just five years for killing countless children. 2317 02:13:54,160 --> 02:13:56,400 On release, she started practicing 2318 02:13:56,480 --> 02:13:58,680 as a family doctor in Germany, 2319 02:13:58,760 --> 02:14:01,040 and only after considerable pressure 2320 02:14:01,120 --> 02:14:03,240 was her license revoked. 2321 02:14:03,320 --> 02:14:06,280 She died in 1978, aged 66. 2322 02:14:26,480 --> 02:14:29,160 - Oradour-sur-Glane was one of two villages 2323 02:14:29,240 --> 02:14:32,280 where SS Gruppenführer Heinz Lammerding 2324 02:14:32,360 --> 02:14:34,920 ordered the murders of all the inhabitants 2325 02:14:35,000 --> 02:14:37,280 and razed the village to the ground. 2326 02:14:49,880 --> 02:14:52,840 Heinz Barth was the only SS officer to stand trial 2327 02:14:52,920 --> 02:14:54,840 for the massacre that took place here. 2328 02:14:55,720 --> 02:14:59,000 In 1983, he was imprisoned in East Germany 2329 02:14:59,080 --> 02:15:02,280 for his part in murdering hundreds of French citizens. 2330 02:15:02,360 --> 02:15:05,040 He was also at the Ležáky massacre, 2331 02:15:05,120 --> 02:15:07,240 yet just 15 years later, 2332 02:15:07,320 --> 02:15:10,120 he was released with a full war pension. 2333 02:15:10,200 --> 02:15:13,480 In 2007, he died, aged 86. 2334 02:15:21,720 --> 02:15:26,760 This is the picturesque town of Bad Tölz where in 1971, 2335 02:15:26,840 --> 02:15:30,840 at the age of 65, Heinz Lammerding died a wealthy man. 2336 02:15:32,520 --> 02:15:36,680 In 1953, a French court had found him guilty 2337 02:15:36,760 --> 02:15:41,760 in absentia of the murder of 750 French citizens. 2338 02:15:42,720 --> 02:15:46,880 The West German government did absolutely nothing about it. 2339 02:15:47,840 --> 02:15:52,840 His funeral was said to be a jolly affair of SS comrades. 2340 02:15:59,080 --> 02:16:03,240 - The Western ally put a provision in the treaty 2341 02:16:03,320 --> 02:16:07,440 with the new Federal Republic of Germany in the '50s 2342 02:16:07,520 --> 02:16:12,320 that West Germany was not allowed to reopen cases 2343 02:16:12,400 --> 02:16:17,040 that had already been finalized by the Allied. 2344 02:16:17,120 --> 02:16:20,760 So the idea was, "Don't touch our cases," 2345 02:16:20,840 --> 02:16:24,480 because they feared a less-severe sentence 2346 02:16:24,560 --> 02:16:27,720 when Germany would reopen these cases. 2347 02:16:27,800 --> 02:16:31,400 But then when it comes to the verdicts in absentia 2348 02:16:31,480 --> 02:16:33,800 in France and in Italy, 2349 02:16:33,880 --> 02:16:37,680 that led to the almost paradox situation 2350 02:16:37,760 --> 02:16:41,840 that then Germany said, "Yeah, we can't reopen the case. 2351 02:16:41,920 --> 02:16:45,800 "We are not allowed to because you, France, 2352 02:16:45,880 --> 02:16:48,920 "have already dealt with the case." 2353 02:16:49,000 --> 02:16:53,080 So the reasoning just backfired. 2354 02:16:53,160 --> 02:16:57,920 Instead of keeping the verdict, 2355 02:16:58,000 --> 02:17:00,600 you got nothing from the point of view 2356 02:17:00,680 --> 02:17:02,840 of the French government. 2357 02:17:02,920 --> 02:17:04,680 And Germany then refused 2358 02:17:04,760 --> 02:17:08,440 to just take the verdict in absentia 2359 02:17:08,520 --> 02:17:11,720 and put him into jail because we think 2360 02:17:11,800 --> 02:17:14,880 that you need a trial with the defendant, 2361 02:17:14,960 --> 02:17:17,520 the accused present before the court. 2362 02:17:18,800 --> 02:17:21,080 So he got away with murder. 2363 02:17:21,160 --> 02:17:22,880 - The result of that situation, 2364 02:17:22,960 --> 02:17:26,360 especially with a verdicts in absentia in France, 2365 02:17:26,440 --> 02:17:31,080 was that for a long time, there was no verdict at all. 2366 02:17:31,160 --> 02:17:33,200 The French was just in paper 2367 02:17:33,280 --> 02:17:36,160 and in Germany, there was no procedure. 2368 02:17:36,240 --> 02:17:40,280 And the situation only changed in the mid of the '70s 2369 02:17:40,360 --> 02:17:42,480 when a special agreement was made 2370 02:17:42,560 --> 02:17:44,480 between France and Germany 2371 02:17:44,560 --> 02:17:48,080 that allowed Germany to reopen the cases. 2372 02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:54,000 Alois Brunner, Eichmann's assistant, 2373 02:17:54,080 --> 02:17:57,360 was responsible for sending 100,000 to ghettos 2374 02:17:57,440 --> 02:17:59,120 and concentration camps. 2375 02:18:00,120 --> 02:18:03,240 Condemned to death in absentia in France, 2376 02:18:03,320 --> 02:18:06,320 he fled West Germany in 1954 2377 02:18:06,400 --> 02:18:08,640 to a eventual residence in Syria. 2378 02:18:09,680 --> 02:18:13,000 Unrepentant, he received a generous salary 2379 02:18:13,080 --> 02:18:15,200 from the ruling Barth party 2380 02:18:15,280 --> 02:18:18,320 for his professional advice on torture. 2381 02:18:19,440 --> 02:18:24,440 He died in either 2001, aged 89 or 2010, aged 98. 2382 02:18:25,280 --> 02:18:28,600 Either way, he lived a longer life than all his victims. 2383 02:18:51,160 --> 02:18:55,160 - This is Salztorgasse, Salt Gate Street, 2384 02:18:55,240 --> 02:18:58,960 and this was the back entrance of the huge building 2385 02:18:59,040 --> 02:19:01,560 of the former Gestapo headquarters. 2386 02:19:01,640 --> 02:19:04,680 It was installed here because this was 2387 02:19:04,760 --> 02:19:07,400 a big hotel, a Jewish hotel. 2388 02:19:07,480 --> 02:19:11,160 And in 1938, this was seized by the Gestapo 2389 02:19:11,240 --> 02:19:13,800 and made the headquarters. 2390 02:19:13,880 --> 02:19:15,800 It had been completely destroyed 2391 02:19:15,880 --> 02:19:18,280 during the Second World War. 2392 02:19:18,360 --> 02:19:23,040 In the 1950s, it had been rebuilt as a condominium. 2393 02:19:23,120 --> 02:19:25,400 And this was the back entrance where the victims, 2394 02:19:25,480 --> 02:19:30,360 where the prisoners were brought to be questioned there. 2395 02:19:30,680 --> 02:19:34,720 And people who bought apartments here, 2396 02:19:34,800 --> 02:19:39,800 they contributed to establish that memorial site here. 2397 02:19:40,760 --> 02:19:45,760 And when Simon Wiesenthal looked for a new office, 2398 02:19:46,360 --> 02:19:47,560 he said, "Why not here 2399 02:19:47,640 --> 02:19:49,600 "in the former building of Gestapo?" 2400 02:19:49,680 --> 02:19:51,840 And this was exactly here. 2401 02:19:51,920 --> 02:19:55,080 So you have still the white plaque here. 2402 02:19:55,160 --> 02:20:00,160 Here was written, "Documentation center of the Association 2403 02:20:01,440 --> 02:20:05,680 "of Jewish-persecuted people of Nazi time." 2404 02:20:05,760 --> 02:20:07,920 So he specifically chose it 2405 02:20:08,000 --> 02:20:09,720 because it was a Gestapo headquarters. 2406 02:20:09,800 --> 02:20:11,720 - I am sure of it because, 2407 02:20:11,800 --> 02:20:16,320 yeah, it has a symbolic worth to do that work 2408 02:20:17,200 --> 02:20:19,480 on that place where the Gestapo 2409 02:20:19,560 --> 02:20:22,520 did its ugly work before, yeah. 2410 02:20:28,440 --> 02:20:31,440 Gustav Wagner, nicknamed "The Beast," 2411 02:20:31,520 --> 02:20:33,120 was the first deputy commander 2412 02:20:33,200 --> 02:20:36,720 of Sobibor extermination camp in Poland. 2413 02:20:36,800 --> 02:20:39,080 He ran the selection process 2414 02:20:39,160 --> 02:20:41,760 that led to slave labor or death, 2415 02:20:41,840 --> 02:20:45,640 where 200 to 250,000 Jews were murdered. 2416 02:20:46,520 --> 02:20:50,000 Sentenced to death in absentia, he escaped to Brazil. 2417 02:20:50,920 --> 02:20:52,280 After his exposure, 2418 02:20:52,360 --> 02:20:55,920 several extradition requests were rejected. 2419 02:20:56,000 --> 02:20:58,320 In 1980, aged 69, 2420 02:20:58,400 --> 02:21:01,760 he was found dead with a knife in his chest. 2421 02:21:01,840 --> 02:21:05,800 His attorney said that he had committed suicide. 2422 02:21:24,280 --> 02:21:25,920 - The DOW, in German, 2423 02:21:26,000 --> 02:21:29,720 Dokumentationsarchiv des österreichischen Widerstandes, 2424 02:21:29,800 --> 02:21:33,440 Documentation Center of Austrian Resistance, 2425 02:21:33,520 --> 02:21:36,000 is an institution which was founded 2426 02:21:36,080 --> 02:21:38,600 to document resistance in Austria 2427 02:21:38,680 --> 02:21:41,400 at the time when everybody spoke only of the soldiers 2428 02:21:41,480 --> 02:21:44,880 of the Second World War in the 1960s. 2429 02:21:44,960 --> 02:21:47,840 But meanwhile, it has become one 2430 02:21:47,920 --> 02:21:50,880 of the leading institution for the whole period, 2431 02:21:50,960 --> 02:21:53,520 especially for Holocaust research in Austria. 2432 02:21:53,600 --> 02:21:58,000 And our big, biggest, most important project started 2433 02:21:58,080 --> 02:22:01,720 in the 1990s to compile a database 2434 02:22:01,800 --> 02:22:04,280 of all Austrian Holocaust victims. 2435 02:22:05,280 --> 02:22:08,240 Simon Wiesenthal was, in my opinion, 2436 02:22:08,320 --> 02:22:12,080 the most important person with respect 2437 02:22:12,160 --> 02:22:15,000 to the prosecution 2438 02:22:15,080 --> 02:22:18,400 of former Nazi criminals in Austria, 2439 02:22:18,480 --> 02:22:22,880 because he pushed the Austrian judiciary to do its work. 2440 02:22:23,920 --> 02:22:26,320 He was a Polish Jew of Eastern Poland, 2441 02:22:26,400 --> 02:22:30,840 and he was a survivor of many concentration camps. 2442 02:22:30,920 --> 02:22:36,040 But his career in the Nazi concentration camps ended 2443 02:22:36,760 --> 02:22:40,160 on Austrian soil, it was in Mauthausen. 2444 02:22:40,240 --> 02:22:42,960 And already during the last weeks 2445 02:22:43,040 --> 02:22:46,440 of the existence of the concentration camp, 2446 02:22:47,680 --> 02:22:52,680 he started to collect evidence against the perpetrators. 2447 02:22:53,120 --> 02:22:56,400 And when the Americans liberated us, 2448 02:22:56,480 --> 02:23:00,120 the concentration camp, he followed them to Linz, 2449 02:23:00,200 --> 02:23:02,280 Linz is very near to Mauthausen, 2450 02:23:02,360 --> 02:23:07,120 and established his own bureau of collecting of evidence 2451 02:23:07,200 --> 02:23:11,000 to help the American judicial authorities 2452 02:23:11,080 --> 02:23:13,680 institute proceedings against those criminals, 2453 02:23:13,760 --> 02:23:16,280 and to prepare the court cases, 2454 02:23:16,360 --> 02:23:17,920 both in Nuremberg and in Dachau. 2455 02:23:18,000 --> 02:23:20,280 In the former Dachau, the concentration camp, 2456 02:23:20,360 --> 02:23:24,120 American law officers prepared 2457 02:23:24,200 --> 02:23:27,480 some trials against the perpetrators of Mauthausen. 2458 02:23:27,560 --> 02:23:30,120 And there, Simon Wiesenthal was one 2459 02:23:30,200 --> 02:23:33,480 of the most important persons to collect evidence. 2460 02:23:33,560 --> 02:23:35,160 And immediately after the war, 2461 02:23:35,240 --> 02:23:37,880 you had more trials in Austria than, 2462 02:23:37,960 --> 02:23:39,480 for instance, in Germany. 2463 02:23:40,520 --> 02:23:42,160 And in that time, 2464 02:23:42,240 --> 02:23:46,080 some six or 7,000 out of them were 2465 02:23:46,160 --> 02:23:49,120 of cases of murder, 2466 02:23:49,200 --> 02:23:53,760 assault and battery, and... 2467 02:23:53,840 --> 02:23:58,040 Robbery, Aryanization, and theft and all that. 2468 02:23:58,120 --> 02:24:00,720 And we had 43 death sentences, 2469 02:24:00,800 --> 02:24:04,480 29 sentences with life imprisonment, 2470 02:24:04,560 --> 02:24:07,680 and around 300 or so sentences 2471 02:24:07,760 --> 02:24:11,320 in the upper range between 10 and 20 years. 2472 02:24:11,400 --> 02:24:15,800 But immediately after the last Ally troops 2473 02:24:15,880 --> 02:24:18,120 had left Austria in 1955, 2474 02:24:18,200 --> 02:24:20,880 started this period 2475 02:24:20,960 --> 02:24:24,440 where we had only a very few 2476 02:24:25,400 --> 02:24:27,000 amount of trials. 2477 02:24:27,080 --> 02:24:32,080 And Simon Wiesenthal played a very, very important role 2478 02:24:32,680 --> 02:24:36,000 to bring forward some of the most important 2479 02:24:36,080 --> 02:24:38,720 of those few Austrian trials. 2480 02:24:38,800 --> 02:24:42,600 Not only because he pushed forward some cases 2481 02:24:42,680 --> 02:24:46,840 and brought it to public attention, and also... 2482 02:24:48,360 --> 02:24:51,520 Forced Austrian judiciary to do something. 2483 02:24:51,600 --> 02:24:53,880 But when, as soon as 2484 02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:58,200 the court case started before the court, 2485 02:24:58,280 --> 02:25:01,560 you had the main trial and there, 2486 02:25:02,880 --> 02:25:05,400 witnesses were summoned. 2487 02:25:05,480 --> 02:25:08,200 And you had to prepare the witnesses. 2488 02:25:08,280 --> 02:25:10,200 You had, first, you had to find them, 2489 02:25:10,280 --> 02:25:12,240 there, he played a very important role. 2490 02:25:12,320 --> 02:25:14,360 And then you had to prepare them. 2491 02:25:15,480 --> 02:25:17,520 Austrian authorities were not interested 2492 02:25:17,600 --> 02:25:21,000 in what those people 2493 02:25:21,080 --> 02:25:24,960 had lived through in the Nazi time. 2494 02:25:25,040 --> 02:25:26,840 And how they could protect them 2495 02:25:26,920 --> 02:25:28,840 and how they could help them to deal with that? 2496 02:25:28,920 --> 02:25:33,760 It's not that easy to go inside a building 2497 02:25:34,760 --> 02:25:37,560 where you have people who have uniforms 2498 02:25:37,640 --> 02:25:41,040 who are not that different from the old Nazi uniforms, 2499 02:25:41,120 --> 02:25:44,640 and then to be a witness there 2500 02:25:44,720 --> 02:25:47,400 and to say what happened and to remember. 2501 02:25:47,480 --> 02:25:49,320 And Wiesenthal was the only person 2502 02:25:49,400 --> 02:25:50,880 who helped those people. 2503 02:25:50,960 --> 02:25:55,000 But half of those trials ended with a guilty verdict. 2504 02:25:55,080 --> 02:25:58,800 And most of those guilty verdicts were very, very lenient. 2505 02:25:58,880 --> 02:26:03,360 And this contributed to the meaning 2506 02:26:03,440 --> 02:26:05,800 that Austria is really a kind of safe haven. 2507 02:26:08,000 --> 02:26:11,760 Franz Murer was an Austrian SS officer 2508 02:26:11,840 --> 02:26:16,840 who, from 1941 to '43, served in Vilnius, Lithuania, 2509 02:26:17,000 --> 02:26:21,240 which was often referred to as the "Jerusalem of the North." 2510 02:26:21,320 --> 02:26:24,280 This capital city had a Jewish population 2511 02:26:24,360 --> 02:26:27,520 of around 80,000 before the war, 2512 02:26:27,600 --> 02:26:30,760 but just 250 afterwards. 2513 02:26:32,280 --> 02:26:37,280 Murer was found guilty in 1948 of murdering Soviet citizens 2514 02:26:38,000 --> 02:26:40,000 and sentenced first to death, 2515 02:26:40,080 --> 02:26:44,880 but then commuted to 25 years hard labor in the USSR. 2516 02:26:46,520 --> 02:26:49,320 He was released in 1955 2517 02:26:49,400 --> 02:26:52,040 as part of the Austrian State Treaty, 2518 02:26:52,120 --> 02:26:53,560 and returned to Vienna. 2519 02:26:54,720 --> 02:26:57,280 Because of the work of Simon Wiesenthal, 2520 02:26:57,360 --> 02:27:01,680 he was arrested and prosecuted again in 1963 in Austria. 2521 02:27:02,680 --> 02:27:06,600 The one-week trial ended with Murer's acquittal. 2522 02:27:06,680 --> 02:27:10,480 He died in 1994, aged 81. 2523 02:27:13,000 --> 02:27:14,880 - The Austrian courts were quite extraordinary. 2524 02:27:14,960 --> 02:27:19,200 After 1955, they brought virtually no one to trial. 2525 02:27:19,280 --> 02:27:22,560 They brought a couple of dozen cases in Austria. 2526 02:27:22,640 --> 02:27:24,320 But it was getting embarrassing 2527 02:27:24,400 --> 02:27:27,240 because juries would acquit known murderers, 2528 02:27:27,320 --> 02:27:30,040 like Franz Murer, the "Butcher of Vilnius." 2529 02:27:30,120 --> 02:27:32,960 And because it was getting embarrassing 2530 02:27:33,040 --> 02:27:34,600 that there were these acquittals 2531 02:27:34,680 --> 02:27:36,600 and that perpetrators were greeted 2532 02:27:36,680 --> 02:27:38,360 with flowers and applause, 2533 02:27:38,440 --> 02:27:41,120 and their mates were just cheering them 2534 02:27:41,200 --> 02:27:42,720 when they were acquitted, 2535 02:27:42,800 --> 02:27:45,920 by the mid 1970s, it seemed simpler in Austria 2536 02:27:46,000 --> 02:27:48,680 not to bring anyone to trial at all. 2537 02:27:52,040 --> 02:27:53,520 Certainly in my country, 2538 02:27:53,600 --> 02:27:56,760 there's the feeling that for a long time, 2539 02:27:56,840 --> 02:27:59,280 Austria had a narrative of, 2540 02:27:59,360 --> 02:28:01,720 "We were victims of the Nazis too. 2541 02:28:02,880 --> 02:28:05,160 "The Germans invaded Austria." 2542 02:28:05,240 --> 02:28:07,320 - Yeah, that's absolutely true. 2543 02:28:07,400 --> 02:28:09,320 That's absolutely true. 2544 02:28:09,400 --> 02:28:11,520 It was, the Austrians were invited 2545 02:28:11,600 --> 02:28:13,760 to have that narrative by the Allies. 2546 02:28:13,840 --> 02:28:15,600 The Allies had their conference, 2547 02:28:15,680 --> 02:28:17,960 the three Allies, in Moscow 2548 02:28:19,240 --> 02:28:22,840 in late 1943, and there, they made some declarations 2549 02:28:22,920 --> 02:28:26,960 about Nazi atrocities, about how to deal with Italy, 2550 02:28:27,040 --> 02:28:28,560 and how to deal with Austria. 2551 02:28:28,640 --> 02:28:30,600 And in that declaration of Austria, 2552 02:28:30,680 --> 02:28:33,160 they said, "Austria as a state, 2553 02:28:33,240 --> 02:28:36,360 "was the first victim of 2554 02:28:36,440 --> 02:28:40,600 "Hitler's aggression policy," which is absolutely true. 2555 02:28:40,680 --> 02:28:45,840 But it says nothing about the role of the Austrians 2556 02:28:45,920 --> 02:28:49,200 in the annexation process in 1938. 2557 02:28:49,280 --> 02:28:52,520 But you had in that declaration of Austria, 2558 02:28:52,600 --> 02:28:54,920 you had one very important sentence. 2559 02:28:55,000 --> 02:28:59,640 "Austria has a responsibility though 2560 02:28:59,720 --> 02:29:04,720 "for her participation in Hitler's war of aggression." 2561 02:29:04,920 --> 02:29:09,640 But this declaration was repeated again and again, 2562 02:29:09,720 --> 02:29:12,120 but only the first part of the declaration, 2563 02:29:12,200 --> 02:29:15,760 and Austria declared herself as a victim. 2564 02:29:15,840 --> 02:29:17,000 This was very practical. 2565 02:29:17,080 --> 02:29:18,720 They could hide behind the Germans. 2566 02:29:18,800 --> 02:29:20,520 The Germans were the perpetrates, 2567 02:29:20,600 --> 02:29:22,400 and the Austrians were the victims. 2568 02:29:22,480 --> 02:29:27,120 And the government held this official position, 2569 02:29:27,200 --> 02:29:29,320 "We are victims." 2570 02:29:29,400 --> 02:29:33,400 But in the beginning of 1937, 2571 02:29:33,480 --> 02:29:34,720 the claimed that the Nazi party 2572 02:29:34,800 --> 02:29:38,800 in Austria had around 70,000 members. 2573 02:29:39,960 --> 02:29:42,240 Austria was a country of six million inhabitants 2574 02:29:42,320 --> 02:29:43,080 at that time. 2575 02:29:43,160 --> 02:29:48,160 But after the annexation of March, 1938, 2576 02:29:49,080 --> 02:29:52,600 tens of thousands wanted to join the Nazi party. 2577 02:29:52,680 --> 02:29:57,720 And in Austria, you had more than half a million members 2578 02:29:57,800 --> 02:30:00,200 of the Nazi party after the annexation. 2579 02:30:00,280 --> 02:30:02,560 And in addition to all that, 2580 02:30:02,640 --> 02:30:05,280 you had the pogrom on the streets of Vienna. 2581 02:30:05,360 --> 02:30:07,360 And this was not the Germans, 2582 02:30:07,440 --> 02:30:09,920 it was the Viennese anti-Semites. 2583 02:30:10,760 --> 02:30:13,800 They felt, "Now it's possible. 2584 02:30:13,880 --> 02:30:17,760 "There will be impunity for that, we could do that." 2585 02:30:17,840 --> 02:30:20,600 They could beat and call their names 2586 02:30:20,680 --> 02:30:24,040 and humiliate our Jewish neighbors. 2587 02:30:24,120 --> 02:30:26,720 It started before the first 2588 02:30:26,800 --> 02:30:28,920 German soldier arrived in Vienna. 2589 02:30:29,000 --> 02:30:33,920 And it was not Hitler, it was the Viennese themselves, 2590 02:30:34,000 --> 02:30:37,320 what they were doing against their Jewish neighbors. 2591 02:30:37,400 --> 02:30:42,400 But yeah, it lasted really until the middle of the 1980s 2592 02:30:43,600 --> 02:30:47,040 that the Austrian public realized what had happened. 2593 02:30:47,120 --> 02:30:50,960 And this had to do with the 2594 02:30:51,920 --> 02:30:54,480 candidate of Kurt Waldheim 2595 02:30:54,560 --> 02:30:57,840 who was Secretary General of the United Nations. 2596 02:30:57,920 --> 02:31:00,440 And this really was the beginning 2597 02:31:00,520 --> 02:31:02,760 of a completely new approach 2598 02:31:02,840 --> 02:31:05,120 towards the Nazi time in Austria. 2599 02:31:07,040 --> 02:31:10,800 - For pretty much the entire decade of the 1970s, 2600 02:31:10,880 --> 02:31:13,760 Kurt Waldheim was the Secretary General 2601 02:31:13,840 --> 02:31:14,920 of the United Nations, 2602 02:31:15,000 --> 02:31:18,720 the Chief Humanitarian Officer for the world. 2603 02:31:18,800 --> 02:31:20,400 And as he's sitting there 2604 02:31:20,480 --> 02:31:23,520 in his United Nations building in New York, 2605 02:31:23,600 --> 02:31:25,080 in the very same building, 2606 02:31:25,160 --> 02:31:28,400 stored somewhere in the basement is a folder, 2607 02:31:28,480 --> 02:31:32,120 also compiled by his organization some 40 years earlier, 2608 02:31:32,200 --> 02:31:36,160 which has his name and accuses him of murder. 2609 02:31:36,240 --> 02:31:40,760 Waldheim stepped down from his position in the early '80s 2610 02:31:40,840 --> 02:31:43,440 when there was a furor 2611 02:31:43,520 --> 02:31:46,440 when all these allegations were finally revealed. 2612 02:31:46,520 --> 02:31:51,480 He was nevertheless selected as president of Austria, 2613 02:31:51,560 --> 02:31:55,560 his homeland, and the United States decided 2614 02:31:55,640 --> 02:31:58,560 to conduct its own very extensive investigation 2615 02:31:58,640 --> 02:32:00,040 into the charges. 2616 02:32:00,120 --> 02:32:01,760 And they discovered that there was a case 2617 02:32:01,800 --> 02:32:04,360 to answer on a number of camps, 2618 02:32:04,440 --> 02:32:07,200 including the fact that Waldheim 2619 02:32:07,280 --> 02:32:11,000 had surrendered many individuals to the SS 2620 02:32:11,080 --> 02:32:12,640 to become slave laborers, 2621 02:32:12,720 --> 02:32:15,360 and had also been materially involved 2622 02:32:15,440 --> 02:32:20,120 in the deportations of hundreds of civilians, 2623 02:32:20,200 --> 02:32:23,240 especially Jews, from Greece and Bosnia, 2624 02:32:23,320 --> 02:32:26,600 who ended up in concentration and death camps. 2625 02:32:26,680 --> 02:32:30,640 And as a result of this, the US decided to bar him 2626 02:32:30,720 --> 02:32:33,240 from entry onto its territories, 2627 02:32:33,320 --> 02:32:35,280 which means that Kurt Waldheim 2628 02:32:35,360 --> 02:32:39,480 became the very first serving head of state 2629 02:32:39,560 --> 02:32:43,040 to be put by the US on their immigration watch list. 2630 02:33:03,880 --> 02:33:05,880 This is where Hitler was born. 2631 02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:19,720 So we know there were lots of charges 2632 02:33:19,800 --> 02:33:21,240 brought against lots of people. 2633 02:33:21,320 --> 02:33:24,360 I mean, presumably, somebody brought charges against Hitler. 2634 02:33:24,440 --> 02:33:27,120 - Well, there was a quite a taboo against 2635 02:33:27,200 --> 02:33:28,720 prosecuting head of state. 2636 02:33:29,960 --> 02:33:33,200 But what should be very interesting to modern lawyers is 2637 02:33:33,280 --> 02:33:38,320 that in fact, yes, at the time of the Battle of the Bulge, 2638 02:33:38,400 --> 02:33:41,720 December, 1944, the Czech, 2639 02:33:41,800 --> 02:33:45,400 the Slovak government brought very lengthy dossiers 2640 02:33:45,480 --> 02:33:47,920 in two sets of charges against Hitler. 2641 02:33:48,000 --> 02:33:50,760 And the 16 countries, including the British, 2642 02:33:50,840 --> 02:33:54,080 and the Americans approved these charges. 2643 02:33:54,160 --> 02:33:56,720 And it isn't known that Hitler, when he died, 2644 02:33:56,800 --> 02:33:58,920 was in fact an indicted war criminal 2645 02:33:59,000 --> 02:34:02,360 by the Czechoslovaks, with the support of the Allies. 2646 02:34:09,080 --> 02:34:12,880 - This is where Hitler died, and like Göring, Goebbels, 2647 02:34:12,960 --> 02:34:16,320 Himmler, Bormann, and many other leading Nazis, 2648 02:34:16,400 --> 02:34:18,840 he was ultimately a coward 2649 02:34:18,920 --> 02:34:22,280 who took his own life rather than face justice. 2650 02:34:38,960 --> 02:34:41,240 - This is the Topography of Terror. 2651 02:34:41,320 --> 02:34:46,200 It was the former site of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, 2652 02:34:46,280 --> 02:34:49,360 the Main Security Office of the Reich, 2653 02:34:49,440 --> 02:34:51,240 which was where Heinrich Himmler, 2654 02:34:51,320 --> 02:34:54,600 Reinhard Heydrich, and others had the center 2655 02:34:54,680 --> 02:34:57,440 of physical oppression, the SS, 2656 02:34:57,520 --> 02:35:01,000 the SD, which was the security service of the SS, 2657 02:35:01,080 --> 02:35:03,880 the Gestapo, the police forces, 2658 02:35:03,960 --> 02:35:05,720 all the people who were involved 2659 02:35:05,800 --> 02:35:08,920 in the reign of terror through physical force. 2660 02:35:09,000 --> 02:35:13,320 It was in the late 1980s that they started to dig here. 2661 02:35:13,400 --> 02:35:16,040 It had been used, it's hard up against the former wall 2662 02:35:16,120 --> 02:35:17,800 between East and West Berlin. 2663 02:35:17,880 --> 02:35:20,040 And it was just no man's land, really, being used 2664 02:35:20,120 --> 02:35:24,360 as a driving practice area or off-street driving. 2665 02:35:24,440 --> 02:35:26,616 And then they decided they were gonna dig the foundations 2666 02:35:26,640 --> 02:35:29,120 for building a block and discovered here the walls 2667 02:35:29,200 --> 02:35:31,800 of the former Gestapo cellars, 2668 02:35:31,880 --> 02:35:35,040 places where people had been held, had been tortured. 2669 02:35:36,600 --> 02:35:39,480 This kind of memorialization looking at perpetrators 2670 02:35:39,560 --> 02:35:43,560 is really from only from the late 1980s onwards. 2671 02:35:43,640 --> 02:35:45,960 And there is a resistance to facing up 2672 02:35:46,040 --> 02:35:47,960 to who'd done it, basically. 2673 02:35:56,920 --> 02:35:59,520 So this is the Tiergarten, Großer, 2674 02:35:59,600 --> 02:36:02,400 for the site which gave its name 2675 02:36:02,480 --> 02:36:05,160 to the so-called T4 Euthanasia Program 2676 02:36:05,240 --> 02:36:07,440 because it was the central headquarters 2677 02:36:07,520 --> 02:36:10,320 which coordinated a program of killing the mentally 2678 02:36:10,400 --> 02:36:13,320 and physically disabled across the Reich, 2679 02:36:13,400 --> 02:36:15,680 initially from 1939 to '41 2680 02:36:15,760 --> 02:36:18,840 in six main sanatoria institutes 2681 02:36:18,920 --> 02:36:22,760 where they installed gas chambers specifically to kill them. 2682 02:36:22,840 --> 02:36:25,680 Then unofficially, for the rest of the war across the Reich, 2683 02:36:25,760 --> 02:36:27,760 in care homes and hospitals, 2684 02:36:27,840 --> 02:36:30,960 killing patients by use of overdoses 2685 02:36:31,040 --> 02:36:35,200 of poisonous powders or simply starvation. 2686 02:36:35,280 --> 02:36:38,160 One guy, Fran Müller, in a Munich clinic, 2687 02:36:38,240 --> 02:36:40,200 was so proud of his hunger wards 2688 02:36:40,280 --> 02:36:41,600 that he actually took a bunch 2689 02:36:41,680 --> 02:36:43,200 of students around and showed them. 2690 02:36:43,280 --> 02:36:45,240 He picked up a baby by the skin hanging 2691 02:36:45,320 --> 02:36:47,080 off the back of its neck and said, "Look, 2692 02:36:47,160 --> 02:36:51,120 "I give this one another two or three days before it dies." 2693 02:36:51,200 --> 02:36:55,400 So in one case, a guy called Alfred Loy argued 2694 02:36:55,480 --> 02:36:57,280 that if he had not stayed in post 2695 02:36:57,360 --> 02:37:00,920 and killed only 80 to 100 children, 2696 02:37:01,000 --> 02:37:06,000 then a worse Nazi, a more fanatic Nazi would've killed 180. 2697 02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:08,760 So he got away with murder too. 2698 02:37:08,840 --> 02:37:10,080 In another case, 2699 02:37:10,160 --> 02:37:14,640 a guy called Horst Schumann managed to fake symptoms 2700 02:37:14,720 --> 02:37:17,640 so that he appeared too ill to stand trial. 2701 02:37:17,720 --> 02:37:20,000 He swallowed blood and then made himself vomit 2702 02:37:20,080 --> 02:37:21,680 on the way to the courtroom, 2703 02:37:21,760 --> 02:37:24,480 and thus the blood-fleck vomit made it look 2704 02:37:24,560 --> 02:37:27,840 like he was genuinely too ill to stand trial. 2705 02:37:27,920 --> 02:37:31,080 In other cases, people used legal defenses 2706 02:37:31,160 --> 02:37:33,120 like, "Never knew I was doing anything wrong," 2707 02:37:33,200 --> 02:37:34,400 "didn't know it was criminal," 2708 02:37:34,440 --> 02:37:37,600 even though it was explicitly a criminal act at the time. 2709 02:37:43,160 --> 02:37:46,800 This is the memorial to the homosexual victims of Nazis 2710 02:37:46,880 --> 02:37:49,960 And the number of victims was not enormous compared 2711 02:37:50,040 --> 02:37:52,680 to the six million murdered Jews. 2712 02:37:52,760 --> 02:37:56,720 It was maybe 10 to 15,000 gay men died 2713 02:37:56,800 --> 02:38:00,760 as a result of imprisonment, maltreatment by the Nazis. 2714 02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:03,360 But the problem after the war was 2715 02:38:03,440 --> 02:38:05,880 that homosexuality was still the subject 2716 02:38:05,960 --> 02:38:07,640 of criminal proceedings, 2717 02:38:07,720 --> 02:38:09,520 for a quarter of a century after the war 2718 02:38:09,600 --> 02:38:12,520 in East Germany, in West Germany, in Austria. 2719 02:38:12,600 --> 02:38:14,360 And you get a man like Heinz Hager, 2720 02:38:14,440 --> 02:38:17,520 that's a pseudonym for an Austrian who was gay, 2721 02:38:17,600 --> 02:38:20,800 who was arrested when his love affair was found, 2722 02:38:20,880 --> 02:38:23,360 he was sent to Flossenbürg, the concentration camp. 2723 02:38:23,440 --> 02:38:26,480 He was liberated at the end of the war, he went home. 2724 02:38:26,560 --> 02:38:30,480 The very same bureaucrat sitting in the same office 2725 02:38:30,560 --> 02:38:33,400 as who'd sent him to Flossenbürg under Nazism, 2726 02:38:33,480 --> 02:38:36,080 is still sitting there and says, "Sorry, mate, 2727 02:38:36,160 --> 02:38:38,760 "you've still got two years to run on your sentence. 2728 02:38:38,840 --> 02:38:41,000 "You have to spend two years in prison now 2729 02:38:41,080 --> 02:38:42,800 "to finish your sentence." 2730 02:38:49,800 --> 02:38:53,160 This is the memorial to the Roma and Sinti, the Gypsies 2731 02:38:53,240 --> 02:38:57,280 and it was only opened in 2012, so, really belatedly. 2732 02:38:57,360 --> 02:39:00,240 And this particular group is only recognized 2733 02:39:00,320 --> 02:39:02,480 as a group of victims of national socialism, 2734 02:39:02,560 --> 02:39:05,840 very, very belatedly after incredible pressure 2735 02:39:05,920 --> 02:39:09,160 from the Sinti community from the 1980s onwards. 2736 02:39:14,360 --> 02:39:16,480 - These brass squares we see 2737 02:39:16,560 --> 02:39:18,760 kind of everywhere, really, what do they mean? 2738 02:39:18,840 --> 02:39:22,320 - They're called Stolpersteine, "stumbling stones," 2739 02:39:22,400 --> 02:39:24,960 and they have the names and the life dates 2740 02:39:25,040 --> 02:39:27,960 of individuals generally set outside the last place 2741 02:39:28,040 --> 02:39:30,840 where they voluntarily lived before they were arrested, 2742 02:39:30,920 --> 02:39:33,520 deported, taken to their deaths. 2743 02:39:33,600 --> 02:39:36,600 And so they're a kind of individual form of remembrance, 2744 02:39:36,680 --> 02:39:39,400 giving a name back to a person in a place 2745 02:39:39,480 --> 02:39:40,760 where they had lived. 2746 02:39:40,840 --> 02:39:43,760 And they raise the question, what were the people thinking 2747 02:39:43,840 --> 02:39:45,840 who looked out of the windows opposite, 2748 02:39:45,920 --> 02:39:48,000 who watched them being thrown into trucks 2749 02:39:48,080 --> 02:39:50,240 and taken away for deportation? 2750 02:39:50,320 --> 02:39:53,760 So I find them a very effective form of memorialization. 2751 02:40:02,280 --> 02:40:05,040 This is the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe, 2752 02:40:05,120 --> 02:40:08,320 a massive memorial on what had been no man's land 2753 02:40:08,400 --> 02:40:12,360 between East and West Berlin at the time of division. 2754 02:40:12,440 --> 02:40:15,680 After unification, it's right in the heart 2755 02:40:15,760 --> 02:40:18,280 of Germany's new capital city, Berlin. 2756 02:40:18,360 --> 02:40:20,560 It's right up close to the Brandenburg Gate, 2757 02:40:20,640 --> 02:40:23,400 the Reichstag, but it's yet again, 2758 02:40:23,480 --> 02:40:26,800 Germany getting this great reputation 2759 02:40:26,880 --> 02:40:28,200 for facing up to the past, 2760 02:40:28,280 --> 02:40:33,280 a fantastically strong reputation by belated remembrance. 2761 02:40:34,040 --> 02:40:38,440 And yet at the time they could have brought Nazis to court, 2762 02:40:38,520 --> 02:40:41,840 could have brought the perpetrators to account, they didn't. 2763 02:40:41,920 --> 02:40:44,320 So it's part of that double story, 2764 02:40:44,400 --> 02:40:46,280 remembrance of victims, 2765 02:40:46,360 --> 02:40:49,680 but not really bringing those who were guilty 2766 02:40:49,760 --> 02:40:53,400 to account when they could have done decades before. 2767 02:41:04,560 --> 02:41:07,400 - War crimes are acts and omissions 2768 02:41:07,480 --> 02:41:10,520 in violation of the laws and customs of war. 2769 02:41:11,880 --> 02:41:16,320 The crime against humanity is not so delimited. 2770 02:41:16,400 --> 02:41:18,480 It is fundamentally different 2771 02:41:18,560 --> 02:41:20,520 from the mere war crime 2772 02:41:20,600 --> 02:41:24,040 in that it embraces systematic violations 2773 02:41:24,120 --> 02:41:28,480 of fundamental human rights, committed at any time, 2774 02:41:28,560 --> 02:41:30,480 against the nationals of any nation. 2775 02:41:31,680 --> 02:41:33,680 They may occur during peace or in war. 2776 02:41:38,920 --> 02:41:40,600 - I was born in Nuremberg, Germany, 2777 02:41:40,680 --> 02:41:44,240 and so I've grown up with hearing about this my entire life. 2778 02:41:44,320 --> 02:41:46,760 My own sense is that justice, 2779 02:41:46,840 --> 02:41:49,240 in terms of retributive justice 2780 02:41:49,320 --> 02:41:52,240 and in terms of restitution to the victims, 2781 02:41:52,320 --> 02:41:55,600 is never going to be what we hope that it would be. 2782 02:41:55,680 --> 02:41:58,040 And of course, avoiding the slaughter, 2783 02:41:58,120 --> 02:42:01,080 avoiding the atrocities is the most important thing 2784 02:42:01,160 --> 02:42:04,840 we can do as a matter of justice for the victims. 2785 02:42:04,920 --> 02:42:07,760 Hopefully, assuring that there are not further 2786 02:42:07,840 --> 02:42:10,760 similar atrocities and further victims. 2787 02:42:10,840 --> 02:42:12,960 It's impossible for me to say whether 2788 02:42:13,040 --> 02:42:16,720 what was done after the war was satisfactory justice. 2789 02:42:16,800 --> 02:42:18,560 But I note this, 2790 02:42:18,640 --> 02:42:21,600 if we look back to the Treaty of Westphalia, 2791 02:42:21,680 --> 02:42:23,760 upon which the entire European Nation 2792 02:42:23,840 --> 02:42:25,320 state system was founded, 2793 02:42:25,400 --> 02:42:28,720 it's a huge amnesty treaty, if you go back and read it. 2794 02:42:28,800 --> 02:42:31,200 And we've seen even at Nuremberg, 2795 02:42:31,280 --> 02:42:33,600 not with the International Military Tribunal, 2796 02:42:33,680 --> 02:42:37,040 but with all of the 12 subsequent proceedings at Nuremberg, 2797 02:42:37,120 --> 02:42:41,880 by 1958, every one of the convicted criminals was released 2798 02:42:41,960 --> 02:42:45,120 by the United States back into German society 2799 02:42:45,200 --> 02:42:46,520 as part of a deal that was cut 2800 02:42:46,600 --> 02:42:48,440 with Konrad Adenauer's government 2801 02:42:48,520 --> 02:42:50,880 to reconstitute the divisions of the German army 2802 02:42:50,960 --> 02:42:53,920 as a bulwark against Soviet expansion. 2803 02:42:54,000 --> 02:42:55,840 Where is the justice in that? 2804 02:43:00,640 --> 02:43:02,640 - Simon Wiesenthal always told 2805 02:43:04,440 --> 02:43:06,360 us young historians, 2806 02:43:06,440 --> 02:43:10,480 there was only one real winner in the Cold War, 2807 02:43:10,560 --> 02:43:12,800 and this was the old Nazis. 2808 02:43:15,920 --> 02:43:19,280 - There's 5.4 million people living in Yorkshire. 2809 02:43:19,360 --> 02:43:22,920 If the Nazis had killed the entire population of Yorkshire, 2810 02:43:23,000 --> 02:43:24,736 what would the British government have done then? 2811 02:43:24,760 --> 02:43:27,120 - Of course, the British government would've pursued 2812 02:43:27,200 --> 02:43:29,880 every last criminal to their last dying day. 2813 02:43:31,000 --> 02:43:35,400 But the Jews weren't that important. 2814 02:43:35,480 --> 02:43:37,080 They weren't important enough 2815 02:43:37,160 --> 02:43:39,760 for the British government and the other Allies 2816 02:43:39,840 --> 02:43:43,920 to have that same level of political will 2817 02:43:44,000 --> 02:43:48,120 to ensure that justice was 2818 02:43:48,200 --> 02:43:50,680 done and pursued, and that we never let up 2819 02:43:50,760 --> 02:43:53,520 on these most unbelievable crimes. 2820 02:43:55,520 --> 02:43:59,200 - Do you think any Holocaust survivor has actually forgiven 2821 02:43:59,280 --> 02:44:01,400 the Nazis for what they did? 2822 02:44:01,480 --> 02:44:05,400 - No, I've never met one Holocaust survivor 2823 02:44:05,480 --> 02:44:08,360 who forgiven the Nazis, what they did, never. 2824 02:44:09,280 --> 02:44:12,200 I will never forgive them as long as I live. 2825 02:44:13,640 --> 02:44:16,200 I lost 80 people, cousins, uncles, 2826 02:44:17,080 --> 02:44:18,880 parents, everybody, 2827 02:44:20,200 --> 02:44:21,200 from my family. 2828 02:44:22,400 --> 02:44:24,400 Is this justice? 2829 02:44:24,480 --> 02:44:25,480 - I've never 2830 02:44:26,600 --> 02:44:28,440 personally met a survivor 2831 02:44:29,320 --> 02:44:33,320 who has felt that justice has been done. 2832 02:44:34,800 --> 02:44:38,400 And I often think of 2833 02:44:38,480 --> 02:44:40,920 the words of Joseph Roth, 2834 02:44:41,000 --> 02:44:45,640 who was writing about another tragedy at another time, 2835 02:44:45,720 --> 02:44:47,360 and this is what he wrote. 2836 02:44:48,040 --> 02:44:50,600 "When a catastrophe occurs, 2837 02:44:50,680 --> 02:44:53,880 "people at hand are shocked into helpfulness. 2838 02:44:53,960 --> 02:44:58,360 "It seems that people expect catastrophes to be brief, 2839 02:44:58,440 --> 02:45:02,720 "but chronic catastrophes are so unpalatable to neighbors 2840 02:45:02,800 --> 02:45:05,080 "that they gradually become indifferent to them 2841 02:45:05,160 --> 02:45:08,760 "and their victims, if not downright impatient. 2842 02:45:08,840 --> 02:45:11,280 "The sense of order, regularity, 2843 02:45:11,360 --> 02:45:14,280 and due process is so ingrained in people 2844 02:45:14,360 --> 02:45:17,960 "that they're only willing to entertain the opposite, 2845 02:45:18,040 --> 02:45:22,560 "emergency, madness, chaos, confusion, 2846 02:45:22,640 --> 02:45:24,600 "for a brief period. 2847 02:45:24,680 --> 02:45:27,200 "Once the emergency becomes protracted, 2848 02:45:27,280 --> 02:45:29,560 "helping hands return to pockets 2849 02:45:29,640 --> 02:45:32,280 "and the fires of compassion cool down." 2850 02:45:33,320 --> 02:45:36,160 And I think Roth really understands 2851 02:45:36,240 --> 02:45:38,160 and sets us all a challenge, 2852 02:45:38,240 --> 02:45:42,360 which is to be alive to the suffering of others 2853 02:45:42,440 --> 02:45:44,800 and to care what happens about others 2854 02:45:44,880 --> 02:45:46,320 and not to be indifferent. 2855 02:45:52,400 --> 02:45:56,280 - Nowadays, we have to deal with Holocaust denial. 2856 02:45:56,360 --> 02:45:57,480 We don't, thank goodness, 2857 02:45:57,560 --> 02:46:00,040 have to deal with Holocaust triumphalism. 2858 02:46:01,200 --> 02:46:03,080 So this is a great achievement, 2859 02:46:03,160 --> 02:46:06,080 that people deny the Holocaust, they don't triumph it, 2860 02:46:06,160 --> 02:46:08,440 and you know, as sickening that that might be. 2861 02:46:15,800 --> 02:46:19,280 - There were roughly 3000 Einsatzgruppen men 2862 02:46:19,360 --> 02:46:21,040 who were responsible for killing 2863 02:46:21,120 --> 02:46:22,600 one and a half million Jews, 2864 02:46:22,680 --> 02:46:25,800 yet only 200 were ever prosecuted, why? 2865 02:46:26,800 --> 02:46:27,960 - Oh, so many reasons. 2866 02:46:28,040 --> 02:46:31,440 Some of them good reasons, some of them bad reasons. 2867 02:46:31,520 --> 02:46:32,840 The bad reasons, 2868 02:46:33,680 --> 02:46:34,720 because people didn't want 2869 02:46:34,760 --> 02:46:37,120 to confront the reality of what had happened. 2870 02:46:37,200 --> 02:46:38,760 It was too awful. 2871 02:46:38,840 --> 02:46:40,800 It was much easier just to look ahead, 2872 02:46:40,880 --> 02:46:44,360 to look to the future and not to look back. 2873 02:46:44,440 --> 02:46:47,040 Too many husbands, fathers, sons, 2874 02:46:47,120 --> 02:46:49,200 brothers had been involved. 2875 02:46:49,280 --> 02:46:50,880 A lot of the people responsible 2876 02:46:50,960 --> 02:46:53,560 for the killing were not German. 2877 02:46:53,640 --> 02:46:57,400 They were local people in the Baltic states and elsewhere, 2878 02:46:57,480 --> 02:46:59,880 and it was very hard for people to confront. 2879 02:46:59,960 --> 02:47:02,960 The good reasons, or the less bad reasons, I suppose, 2880 02:47:03,880 --> 02:47:05,760 Europe was in a shocking state 2881 02:47:05,840 --> 02:47:07,136 at the end of the Second World War. 2882 02:47:07,160 --> 02:47:09,840 There were hundreds of thousands of people without homes, 2883 02:47:09,920 --> 02:47:13,360 the displaced, who had to be found new homes. 2884 02:47:13,440 --> 02:47:15,840 Borders were being redrawn. 2885 02:47:15,920 --> 02:47:17,480 The Cold War was beginning. 2886 02:47:17,560 --> 02:47:21,920 The Soviet Union was exerting its power. 2887 02:47:22,000 --> 02:47:25,600 Prosecuting those responsible for the horrors 2888 02:47:25,680 --> 02:47:28,920 just didn't seem a priority at the time. 2889 02:47:29,000 --> 02:47:31,680 Justice wasn't done, plainly. 2890 02:47:31,760 --> 02:47:34,280 Justice often, it seems to me, 2891 02:47:34,360 --> 02:47:38,760 is regarded as a luxury that people can't afford. 2892 02:47:38,840 --> 02:47:40,640 Mass murder 2893 02:47:41,680 --> 02:47:43,560 goes unpunished. 2894 02:48:23,920 --> 02:48:28,200 - It certainly is difficult to quantify the effect today 2895 02:48:28,280 --> 02:48:30,200 on the Nuremberg trials. 2896 02:48:30,280 --> 02:48:33,800 I think the question as to what was the intended effect 2897 02:48:33,880 --> 02:48:35,800 is a very important one 2898 02:48:35,880 --> 02:48:38,400 that is still very much being wrestled with. 2899 02:48:38,480 --> 02:48:41,040 You will probably be aware that at Nuremberg, 2900 02:48:41,120 --> 02:48:43,560 the defendants were tried for war crimes 2901 02:48:43,640 --> 02:48:45,440 and for crimes against humanity, 2902 02:48:45,520 --> 02:48:48,160 and in the eyes of some, most importantly, 2903 02:48:48,240 --> 02:48:51,120 crimes against peace, the waging of aggressive war, 2904 02:48:51,200 --> 02:48:56,040 which Nuremberg branded as the supreme international crime. 2905 02:48:56,120 --> 02:48:59,240 And the statements of Robert Jackson, 2906 02:48:59,320 --> 02:49:01,320 the American chief prosecutor, 2907 02:49:01,400 --> 02:49:03,480 were very, very compelling about 2908 02:49:03,560 --> 02:49:06,720 why the court was trying the Nazi high command 2909 02:49:06,800 --> 02:49:08,960 for the crime of aggression. 2910 02:49:09,040 --> 02:49:10,096 He said, among other things, 2911 02:49:10,120 --> 02:49:13,160 that, "the common sense of mankind demands 2912 02:49:13,240 --> 02:49:16,240 "that law shall not stop with the punishment 2913 02:49:16,320 --> 02:49:18,720 "of petty crimes by little people. 2914 02:49:18,800 --> 02:49:21,360 "It must also reach men 2915 02:49:21,440 --> 02:49:23,640 "who possess themselves of great power 2916 02:49:23,720 --> 02:49:26,600 "and make deliberate and concerted use of it 2917 02:49:26,680 --> 02:49:30,840 "to set in motion evils which leave no home 2918 02:49:30,920 --> 02:49:32,520 "in the world untouched." 2919 02:49:32,600 --> 02:49:36,720 The ultimate step in avoiding periodic wars, 2920 02:49:36,800 --> 02:49:38,280 in which Robert Jackson said 2921 02:49:38,360 --> 02:49:41,600 are inevitable in a lawless world, 2922 02:49:41,680 --> 02:49:44,480 is to hold statesmen 2923 02:49:44,560 --> 02:49:46,120 accountable to law. 2924 02:49:46,200 --> 02:49:47,640 And he went on to say, 2925 02:49:47,720 --> 02:49:50,520 "Let me make clear that this law," 2926 02:49:50,600 --> 02:49:54,360 which is now first being applied against German aggressors, 2927 02:49:54,440 --> 02:49:56,640 "if it is to mean anything, 2928 02:49:56,720 --> 02:50:00,920 "must be applied in the future against all nations." 2929 02:50:01,000 --> 02:50:02,320 And then he went on to say, 2930 02:50:02,400 --> 02:50:07,320 "including those who sit here now in judgment." 2931 02:50:07,400 --> 02:50:10,760 So this is the true legacy of Nuremberg pointing away 2932 02:50:10,840 --> 02:50:13,920 to a world where world leaders should know 2933 02:50:14,000 --> 02:50:16,160 that they will be held accountable. 2934 02:50:41,840 --> 02:50:44,720 The millions murdered by the Nazis 2935 02:50:44,800 --> 02:50:48,880 and their collaborators will soon reach their second death 2936 02:50:50,120 --> 02:50:53,040 where everyone who knew them has also died. 2937 02:51:07,160 --> 02:51:08,760 Almost all of those murdered 2938 02:51:08,840 --> 02:51:12,760 became victims for a second time. 2939 02:51:14,760 --> 02:51:18,360 But this was not perpetrated by people intent on evil acts, 2940 02:51:18,440 --> 02:51:21,240 but by the victors, the good guys, 2941 02:51:21,320 --> 02:51:24,000 who turned away and got on with other things 2942 02:51:24,080 --> 02:51:27,240 and did not do everything in their power 2943 02:51:27,320 --> 02:51:30,320 to bring about justice for all those murdered. 2944 02:51:40,120 --> 02:51:43,960 Their killers really did get away with murder. 2945 02:51:55,880 --> 02:51:58,720 Throughout the three years that I've been making this film, 2946 02:51:58,800 --> 02:52:00,280 I've often found myself wondering 2947 02:52:00,360 --> 02:52:03,360 if the warlords in Rwanda, or Bosnia, 2948 02:52:03,440 --> 02:52:07,080 Syria, Cambodia, Zaire, Darfur, 2949 02:52:07,160 --> 02:52:10,600 Indonesia, Myanmar, Russia, 2950 02:52:10,680 --> 02:52:14,320 did they paraphrase the infamous Hitler speech, 2951 02:52:14,400 --> 02:52:16,480 "Who still speaks today 2952 02:52:16,560 --> 02:52:19,720 "about the justice for the Jews?" 222912

Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.