All language subtitles for Doctor Tim Spector The Shocking New Truth About Weight Loss, Calories & Diets E209.2023.720p.eng

exercise doesn't help weight loss

the reason exercise doesn't work is

because

Professor Tim Spector he's an

award-winning scientist best-selling

author and medical professor and he is

ranked in the top 100 of the world's

most cited scientists we're going to be

talking about the future of personalized

nutrition many consider you to be the

leading expert on gut health and diet

what's your view on the ketogenic diet

virtually impossible what about vitamins

waste of money what are the facts around

fasting I do oh [ __ ] what do you mean

idea the food industry wants you to

focus on calorie fat content from sugar

so you don't have to think about the

quality of the food there's never been

any long-term study showing that calorie

counting is an effective way to lose

weight and maintain weight loss this is

why I want people to think about food

very differently than we have done in

the past

so what is the cost

depression anxiety is intricately linked

to the quality of your gut microbes

these are microscopic bugs in our

intestines all of them are able to pump

out chemicals that are vital for our

body when they're fed the right Foods

the reason we're in this state is we've

killed off with all of our good bugs I

think people don't think of all the

positive members that don't think that

you need to build them up God it's so

confusing you know when you walk down

the aisle in the supermarket everything

is trying to pretend that it's good so

how do I know what is good you have to

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[Music]

Tim

[Music]

many consider you to be the

leading expert on topics relating to gut

health and diet and food Etc but how

would you describe your own professional

academic bio what is that bio in your

own words

it's complicated

so

I've changed form over the years quite a

lot

and I'm quite unusual in in terms of

academic medics

who usually stick very Strictly To One

specialty all their career and fear to

go anywhere else so I was a medical

school did the usual stuff then wanted

to be a physician

then did rheumatology

what's Rheumatology and bones and joints

okay so that was my sub specialty if you

like and but I got interested in

epidemiology which is the study of risk

factors in populations where you just

look at thousands of people rather than

one patient really I switched again to

study because I I got

really interested in the idea that

identical twins should be the same

they're clones they lived all their life

together

all their genes are identical

what makes them different

counter to what everyone thought

identical twins often die at different

times they get different diseases one

gets depression one's fine it's all

these differences so what that was my

sort of conundrum what makes identical

twins different

when they have the same they've lived

the same lives it was

only through this sort of search to find

this out that I looked at the gut

microbes in in Twins and found they were

different and that really scientifically

took me onto this

whole new path from there I made this so

leap into nutrition to say well now

we've discovered this whole new science

all this stuff we got wrong about

nutrition suddenly makes sense so now I

would say I'm you know an epidemiologist

who's

really

specializing in in nutrition and gut

health and trying to change the way

people think about food

that was a brilliant summary of your

career and an academic background

um as a muggle like me that's really you

know new to many of these topics what I

understand is the study of epidemiology

is the study of the like genetic root

causes of disease not just genetics so

any any exclusive disease right so the

people studying covid yeah were a

wepademologists tracking a disease

trying to work out who's getting it when

it's coming back how common it is right

all these basic things in populations at

a at a sort of big population level

right great you've also written 800

articles

more than 800 articles on this subject

matter

um in 2014 you set up the British gut

microbiome project

and you've written five books on these

subject matters I mean I've read two of

them that I sat in front of me here

um I'm really intrigued by by the

personal story as well because writing

these books and doing all the work

you've done

is a lot it's a lot of work it requires

a lot of Drive I mean this particular

book you said it took almost six years

to finish

what is the personal Drive behind that

what is driving you to pursue the

subject matter

you know I just love getting into a new

area

finding out that something that

everyone's been quoting for

decades

is total BS

and was based on some tiny study of nine

people it's like I'm a detective

and so I've always had this this quest

to sort of be this

obsessional detective I think going into

these areas and at the same time it's

that's coincided with you know various

events in my life as well that

um have probably pushed me in certain

directions more than other you know that

I wouldn't have gone otherwise what were

those events in your life

I guess you know I was pretty lazy's

um

a student at school they might surprise

some people we always assume if you're a

professor and you've made it you were a

SWOT at school but I did the absolute

minimum so I scraped into medical school

scrape through the first

few years of medical school I had spent

one year

proving you didn't have to go to any

lectures

and could still pass

which was a lot of work actually at the

end I realized it was harder then of

course age 21 my father died

suddenly overnight with a heart attack

no warning at all I was off on a skiing

holiday with some friends

and I think in retrospect that

that event

changed me and

perhaps gave me

you know a bit more

Direction and drive

than I would have had I'm not quite sure

you know how it would have turned out if

he hadn't died but to me

him dying at 57.

suddenly like that

um

made me think I I need to you know make

more of my life

I could die early too

this was something that you know I think

spurred me on to

do all this kind of stuff that I didn't

need to do but um I felt perhaps more

compulsion to do and maybe also got me

interested in this whole idea of

genetics to say well you know

did he have rotten genes

um am I have I got the same genes am I

going to die in my 50s so I think that

Looking Back Now I think

that's it's hard to be absolutely sure

but that seems uh

a reasonable scenario I read and I've

heard from members of your team that

left you with a feeling as you've kind

of said there that you might also Die

Young if it is a genetic thing

definitely yes no I was always telling

my kids you know this is this is it you

know money how many hit I was sort of

half joking but saying well you know

my times you know I've only got seven

years to go now you know whatever it is

um you were saying that two kids yes you

know that uh to try and prepare them I

guess so but it was my way of you know I

did in a jokey way it wasn't like

um I was writing my will and saying you

know

the candlesticks are here and the uh uh

everything else but it was um yeah I

used to make light of it but you know

underneath it yes I felt well

you know I could go early so I need to

get on with it I think and I was also at

that time uh price speed was sped up by

another personal incident

I had at that time

which was a mini stroke

yes I would call it a mini stroke it's a

vascular occlusion but I couldn't work

for three months I couldn't read

and I got a bit depressed about that

so those three months where you you

can't read

um

I read that you were

the quote I went from being a sporty

fitter than average middle-aged man to a

pill popping depressed stroke victim

with high blood pressure

they said you were flawed by this

experience and for three months you

couldn't work

from having a pretty fast-paced frenetic

life

to being bed bound and in those three

months you you'll focus on the

microbiome

increases right

yes I I was I was just finishing up the

very last bits of the previous book

identically different which is about why

Twins were different right

and as a sort of afterthought I had

acted one page about well actually the

microbiome could be

the key to this what is the microbiome

it's the word we use for the community

of gut microbes these are microscopic

bugs in our intestines

and it's

a biome because it's like this jungle

Community it's a lot of different

species all together thousands of them

that coexist in our in our lower

intestine our colon and they it's like

we've discovered in the last 10 years a

new organ in our bodies

if you put them all together they weigh

about the same as our brain

okay so it's that's mind-boggling really

to think about all these bugs which uh

individually are tiny putting together

they actually you know they weigh

several pounds

so you can either think of them as a

microbial Garden but increasingly I'm

shifting that towards thinking as a an

incredible Pharmacy

so all of them

are able to pump out chemicals

all the time that are vital for our body

so thousands of different chemicals are

pumped out every minute by these these

gut microbes when they're fed the right

foods and these chemicals are key for

our immune system most of our immune

system is actually in our gut

we don't most people don't know that we

think it's you know

under our armpits or somewhere but

actually

um

all the immune cells are actually

talking all the time to our gut

microbes through these chemicals and

their immune system obviously is crucial

for our whole body and fighting aging

and cancer covered infections allergies

all these kind of things so then you've

also got the microbes can produce

chemicals that affect the brain and will

make the difference between you being

happy or sad or we know that they're

vital in depression

important for regulating how much you

eat your appetite when you feel full

they also provide key vitamins for you

all the B vitamins and many other

components neurochemicals like serotonin

that's key for the happiness

and how antidepressants work are all

produced by your gut microbes so we're

slowly learning that these guys are

absolutely crucial

to how our body responds to anything

coming into it whether it's painkillers

whether it's antidepressants whether

it's chemicals in the form of food and

this is why you know I want people to

think about food very differently

than we have done in the past the idea

the old idea that food is just calories

macros you know whether it's fats and

carbs and proteins those four things you

know that's 100 years old mentality but

key to it is this this core of our gut

health which we've ignored

totally and this this was this big aha

moment for me after research for 10

years why would identical twins twins be

different

what could it be and it turns out their

gut microbes are different

that's the only thing I've ever found in

30 years that's really different about

identical twins and that explains why

one gets cancer the other one doesn't y

one gets an autoimmune disease or one's

depressed and one's happy so for me that

the twins were perfect

um

obvious way to show that how important

these these microbes are for all of us

what are some of the biggest myths you

encountered as you started researching

the microbiome that most people

currently believe that I probably sat

here now believe about how to keep my

um my gut healthy what are some of those

key myths because I know you like myth

busting

well I think most people believe that

probiotics in yogurt get killed by your

stomach acid

so they don't work because your

everything gets killed off that's a

common one I hear

but they don't no some get killed but

you're ingesting billions so always

enough get through to have an effect and

we know that probiotics do work

although the best probiotics are in food

rather than in capsules

and there's plenty of fermented foods

which is the same

I think

um

most people know very little about

microbes they think that most of them

are harmful

so oh I've you know they they cultured

this microbe or they found a parasite

fifty thousand people have now looked at

their gut microbes in the US and the UK

in the UK 24 have a parasite

and that parasite is actually beneficial

it's called blastocystis and it's

associated with good health being

thinner having less internal fat lower

blood pressure

and you know in the past we're trying to

kill it off

and actually

the reason we're in this state is we've

killed off a lot of our good bugs so I

think people need to realize that most

of the bugs in our in our system are

trying to help us

and

we've actually lost half of the good

ones compared to if you go to

hunter-gatherers or you know I spent

some time with the hadza tribe in Africa

and you know they have twice the number

of species that we have

because they don't pop antibiotics they

don't have sterile Foods they have a

very wide range of um

diverse plants Etc so I think people

uh think that you know their their gut

microbes are really only there to hurt

them when they have a bad Kebab or

something they don't think of all the

positive benefits that don't think that

you need to build them up

and that actually you know they're like

a the more you've got the better it is

how do I build them up

how do I become more like that tribe you

have to have a more diverse range of

plants

so

we did a study a few years ago with

British and American guts that showed

that if you can get up to 30 different

types of plant a week

you maximize your diversity of species

in your gut

and that's that diversity that we want

remember

30 plants you look a bit shocked but

that's um it's

a plant is a nut a seed it's not just

kale

it's a herb it's a spice

and things like coffee

are a plant to me

because it comes from a fermented Bean

so it's that diversity it's having more

fermented foods it's

having a range of colors it's cutting

out

[Music]

um

the ultra processed chemicals as well

which all that all the groups in the

population that have the best gut

microbes they don't eat the ultra

processed foods they don't have

antibiotics they don't have this this

modern Western

lifestyle you mentioned calories there

as well

um when you're talking about the

microbiome one of my friends

is a prolific calorie counter

and you know he eats a lot of Domino's

Pizzas he'll he listens to this podcast

he's going to know exactly he's going to

know that I'm ating him

um he eats Domino's Pizzas all the time

he eats like a real you know processed

food diet but then says to me it's all

about calorie counting

now with all due respect

friend

um

he's never managed to I shouldn't say

but um but it's not necessarily work for

him in terms of the goal that he set

himself so when I was reading about your

view on calorie counting in your book

spoon fed it was I screenshotted it this

morning and sent it to him and I sent I

said you are a bullshitter that's what I

said in the message and we had a good

laugh about it this morning but what is

your view on calorie counting and this

idea that we can you know weight loss or

being healthy is just about having a

calorie deficit it it's complete

nonsense yeah thank you I will clip that

and send it to him there's never been

any long-term study showing that calorie

counting is an effective way to lose

weight and maintain weight loss after

you know the first few weeks

so

yes

very strict calorie counting if you

deprive yourself for a few weeks you

will lose some weight but

even if you're successful your body's

evolutionary mechanisms will make you

hungry and hungry every week you go by

where you're depriving yourself of

energy your body will go into sort of

shutdown mode your metabolism slows down

so you're not expending those calories

and inevitably I'd say more than 95

percent of people will go back to their

Baseline and many go above it it's a

rebound back if they're doing this this

style of uh calorie restriction now

calorie counting is a part of that so

people try and say okay I'm not going

I'm not getting a dramatic diet but I'm

going to just try and Reduce by 10 my

calories in the day which in the old

theory was supposed to make you lose

weight well it's virtually impossible

even professionals to count calories

and

because

they're not very accurate for a start

everything on the packet you have to

weigh everything and in restaurants now

we're supposed to have these calorie

counts they're plus or minus about 30

percent because the portion size makes

such a huge difference to it that it it

and it's been shown in the US to be a

worthless exercise anyway

so you can't count them going in you

can't really count your metabolism going

out either we're all incredibly

different you know your friends probably

been told 2500 calories is what he's

allowed

well that's an average

uh but it doesn't mean it relates to him

my average is much lower and when I

tested it so everyone is an individual

and this is another thing we need to

move away from this one-size-fits-all

guidelines but I think more importantly

is that

the whole calorie counting assumption

means that it doesn't matter what form

that calorie is it has the same effect

in your body therefore whether you're

cutting out fat calories or carb

calories or you know low calorie

sodas or whatever it is it's it's going

to be fine but we now know that's not

true

and there's several science experiments

which now absolutely nail that

one was

um but in America where they gave people

identical meals

um for two weeks in a sort of enclosed

semi-prison and one was homemade and one

was Ultra processed both identical

calories macros the same

the group of the ultra processed foods

over at by about 200 calories every day

they kept came back to the buffet for

more okay so

yes the same calories but the effect on

the body meant they were hungrier why is

that

we don't know for sure it could be

that those chemicals in the ultra versus

Foods affect the gut microbes

and they then send signals to the brain

saying eat more this isn't a natural you

know this is a really weird chemical

it's doing something weird to me I'm

producing something weird in exchange

it could be they get absorbed much

quicker

so you get a big sugar rush and you know

the nutrients get in to your body in a

way faster than they should do in nature

and so your brain doesn't have time to

say I'm full it normally takes 20

minutes or so to to get that fullness

um or you know it so it could be the

Matrix of the food it could be the

chemicals in the food it could be its

effect on the gut microbes

um but it also could be

things like your sugar spikes so in the

Zoe predict studies where basically

we've given Now 50 000 people

um in the US and the UK the same Foods

at the same time

same time of day everyone's got these

muffins we show that people

um one in four people who have these

muffins and are wearing it we wear

glucose monitors which tells you for two

weeks of what's happening in your

glucose one in four people get a real

sugar dip

three hours later so this is where you

you rise in Sugar which is normal and

then as it comes down it goes below

Baseline

but only in one in four people

and when that happens those people end

up uh overeating the next meal and

during the day they feel more tired more

hungry that's this the sort of 11

o'clock slump if you like if you've had

a carbi breakfast some people feel that

others don't

and what's really interesting is that so

one in four people eating an identical

muffin of identical calories will then

overeat by this you know another 10 that

day

so you can see how that just blows the

calorie

idea out that the calories in equals

calories out everything's the same and

and the third thing is that Ultra

processed food says it has the calories

that's equal to the Whole Foods but

often they don't account for the fact

that it's ground up it's highly refined

and so if you take like almonds or

something like this these might use

ground almonds and you compare ground

almonds to whole almonds

there's perhaps 30 percent less

available calories and the whole almonds

than there is in the other one so the

whole thing is a complete nonsense and

it's there

because the food industry wants you to

focus on the calorie

the fat content

sugar so you don't have to think about

the quality of the food

and it's something that they can control

very easily get their profits higher

keep adding stuff to the product that's

synthetic

when we know that a lot of things are

adding are harmful for our gut microbes

so that the artificial sweeteners are

harmful the the glues they stick the

foods together the emulsifiers some

people react quite a lot to those and

they cause problems so the whole thing

is like this giant camouflage

and that's

that's really one thing I'm you know it

might probably my number one bug bear is

to

get people to see the light

stop obsessing about calories and start

thinking about food much more as quality

and what it does to your body

quality food what is quality food in

your definition of the phrase it's the

opposite of ultra processed food which

is Whole Food which is made with

from the original ingredients of plants

mainly plant-based but it's not

exclusively that

contains all the nutrients that those

those plants produce without it being

Stripped Away or

boiled up or highly pressurized

deformed and so they have to add in back

those nutrients so you know it's things

in their pure form so it's

it's nuts it's seeds it's it's grains

that haven't been ground up super finely

it's all the amazing plants and fruits

and vegetables that we've got

they they're healthy foods but you know

it's it's not straightforward yes I've

got this list of 10 superfoods it's it's

understanding that many foods that

you know are healthy for us most of them

are in their in their original form

berries nuts

um

virtually every vegetable

is healthy for us if it's in that

original form it's only because we've we

had to learn to preserve things we had

to

do trickery to make you know margarines

and things with chemistry that we've

moved away from that but

you know going back you know

olive oil for example is a great example

of saying that the vilified often

because it has lots of fats in it and

you know sending I was done oh the med

trains they have they have olive oil and

everything it's horrible it's all fatty

turns out that's that's a perf you know

it comes from the olive

the good stuff extra virgin olive oil

has very little done to it and that is a

a good healthy quality food but

it can be refined you can take that and

you can keep refining it

um you can take corn on the cob as an

example and then you you know and then

you've got I don't know uh

tortilla chips or something down the

other end is which Bears or cornflakes

which Bears no resemblance

to the original and they're all versions

on the Spectrum

God it's so confusing you know because

what you've said to me is

you know based on research and studies

but then when I go to a supermarket

labeling even I just thinking in

cornflakes I think I grew up thinking

conflicts were healthy because it says

corn in the title you know what I mean

and it's and when you're trying to

navigate I was just thinking if I'm

going down an aisle now hearing what

you've just said that that quality food

is food that is not Ultra processed and

kind of resembles its original form

when you walk down the aisle in the

supermarket everything is trying to

pretend that it's good

so how do I know what is good I mean I

can go to the vegetable aisle and I can

say okay that looks like a cabbage it

looks like no one's messed with that

there's been no study done on that to it

hasn't been through a laboratory but how

do I like if I'm in an aisle tomorrow

how do I know what food is good and what

is not well you've said the first thing

if it's not in a package

um you're pretty sure it's good okay so

um

if it's concealed in some package that's

got you know happy children and signals

of vitamins in it that should be a

warning sign you know the more they have

to advertise the food and say what its

additives are and everything the more

you should be wary about it the number

of ingredients is another pretty good

sign so once you get over 10

particularly if there's lots you've

never heard of you wouldn't find in your

kitchen you should also be wary that

that is ultra processed food anything

that says low calorie that says means

they've had to add in lots of artificial

sweeteners or protein extracts or

something else is also a big danger sign

low in fat means they've replaced the

natural fat with something else that's

cheaper and these are all warning signs

you know

and you know you take breakfast cereals

I mean I used to

I used to eat lots of breakfast cereals

I was brought up on them highly sugary

stuff and then I thought I was being

healthy when I moved to muesli's and um

posha stuff

uh but actually when you still you know

that appearance of healthiness it's

still got lots of additives in it it's

still got lots of sugar in it it's just

and

those cereal packets have added vitamins

in it but they're often in a very poor

form

I did an experiment once where I

um took some cornflakes or special care

I can't remember that said had added

iron and if you mix it up you can put a

magnet on it you can get off the iron

filings they're so cheap that they just

added to tick a box saying it has iron

but they don't get into your body or do

anything so anything that's got

these things added with this in it low

in this is a sign that they're obscuring

the quality of the product so it's

you know but there's a lot of brain you

know we've been brainwashed for years

and decades in this and you know I was

as well as a doctor

you know I should know better

and yet I've completely changed my

Sev two of my meals completely so I've

gone from having muesli with low-fat

milk and an orange juice and uh a cup of

tea

because I I did you know I started doing

these tests for Zoe I found out that

gave me a massive sugar Spike

and it was a terrible way to start the

day and I got these you know dips at 11

o'clock to a High full fat yogurt nuts

seeds a few berries and never have

orange juice that's on my that's a

really unhealthy drink for everybody

and I have a lots of black coffee which

I now know is good for me so

that's totally different I changed my

lunch

for at least 10 15 years

um when I got in the hospital I was

having a hospital lunch which

used to be in the canteen then it was

the Marks and Spencers got a healthy

looking sandwich with brown bread sweet

corn

and tuna and a smoothie in a little

bottle

and

that gave a massive sugar Spike and I

wouldn't have known that

and I was told that should have been a

healthy thing to eat so

you know there's there's general rules

but also there are specific rules and

this whole idea of individual

individuality is coming in so it could

be that you could you might be fine on

that don't know

um I was very annoyed because

when I started we were starting doing

this testing for Zoe I had all these

spare kits and I gave my wife one as

well

and we sit down and

she's

French Belgian and loves croissants and

so we'd have croissant each mine would

shoot up she had no change at all in her

her sugar which is really annoying yeah

so but it also brings brings home the

fact that you know

everyone loves simplistic rules

but you can only get so far

with them you have to start

experimenting yourself and see what

works for you and not just take

everything for granted and that's really

the

that's the whole essence of really you

know setting up this personalized

nutrition research and Zoe and

everything else but uh

on top of this general advice about

changing our idea of food I think

because I think they do go hand in hand

that if you realize there are these

individual differences you realize it's

not as simple as you've been told it's

not that fats are evil it's not that

calories are bad you know it's it's much

more nuanced

you mentioned breakfast there I heard

that you do some intermittent fasting

intermittent fasting I think I

pronounced that correctly intermittent

fasting yes we'll just uh use AI to swap

that for my voice

what is it intermittent let's just call

it fasting just for people at home that

can't say it

um

fasting has become a really popular

thing over the last three or four years

A lot of my friends talk about it again

it's it's almost feels like it's going

into fad territory again but what is the

what are the facts around fasting

intermittently

okay it's

I guess it's been quite a Hot Topic

about 10 years now but it's intermittent

fasting so umbrella term for all kinds

of different fasting and you might

remember the five two style of

intermittent fasting was quite big about

10 years ago and there were also these

extended fasts often used in America

people doing two or three day

fasts and detoxifying oh gosh yeah that

sort of stuff so you've got to realize

you have to specify what time what what

we're talking about but I think the most

interesting type of fasting now is

what's called time restricted eating

time restricted eating I can say that

Tre okay so the idea is you don't change

what you eat you just change how you eat

and you change your eating window so

most people in in the UK and U.S they'll

be eating for 14 or 16 hours a day it's

me right lots of snacks and extending

late night and

what time strict eating is you're trying

to reduce that to something like 10

hours

on average okay it varies there are some

more extreme ones some milder ones but

that seems about The Sweet Spot that

most people can manage 10 hours which

means uh you start eating at 11 and you

finish at nine for example or you might

want to go from eight in the morning

until six at night oh seven I can't do

my maths

um

now there's actually science behind this

now so there's plenty of studies showing

that not only in mice and rats this

helps them their metabolism their energy

management but

there's some evidence that helps with

weight loss

to a small extent but it's it improves

your inflammation levels and a lot of

people report energy and mood

improvements we've just done a big study

with the Zoe health study which is the

the free app where we had 130 000 people

sign up to do this trial if you like

where they would do this for two weeks

and amazingly most people Managed IT and

we did see improvements in mood and

energy

um just in that two-week period and

actually hunger went down weirdly but a

lot of this we've found is people are

actually snacking less so they weren't

we won't tell them to do less you just

you can do whatever you like in that

time but people are just paying more

attention and not grabbing something to

eat just before they went to bed now the

science behind it's really interesting

because your body needs time to recover

so your cells

we're programmed on the Circadian rhythm

that is very much in in line with the

Sun from you know when we were in East

Africa and it was

um

everything was quite programmed so that

our body is in this state of work during

the day we eat do all our stuff and then

at night it recovers as the stress

hormones go down then you repair stuff

comes out so cleans up all the muck in

ourselves but we now know that it's the

same happening in our guts so if you

rest your gut for 14 hours you give time

for all the other microbes to come out

and act as a repair team like a cleaning

force that Hoover up all the mess you've

left behind they clean up nicely your

gut wall and so it's not leaky get rid

of inflammation and this change giving

them a break really seems to have these

great benefits so I'm I was a real

skeptic about about this and I did lots

of fasting and things for experimenting

the books but it I think the last two

years I've really been convinced that

this is

something that that does work and

is right for some people but importantly

it's not right for everybody and there

is an individuality you may be a snacker

that finds it very hard to go long

periods of time without eating okay I do

know we've got several people at Zoe who

say oh this is terrible you know so but

for me you know I suddenly realized when

I wake up in the morning I'm not

starving

it's not the first thing I I think in my

head and it's very easy to wait till 11

o'clock to have something to eat and

it's not a big deprivation that's

something you could carry on the whole

of your life which I think is what we're

we're into here so I think there's a lot

to be said for this but I think people

need to personalize it

again you know people love a single

single black and white solution to all

their problems but I'd say to everyone

try it you may want to you know do a

sort of American style eating really

early and finishing early

um you might be that kind of person

who's also morning person or you might

be someone that prefers the social life

of eating in the evening and um

skipping the morning it's going to be

it's going to be take quite a lot of

discipline for me to stop having

chocolate at 2AM so could you just

summarize again time restricted eating

the the key benefits of it are my

microbiome will be healthier gives my

microbiome more time to clean up which

will have an impact potentially on

weight loss and overall energy levels

etc etc mood okay cool that's enough for

me I think that's a convincing enough

reason and I imagine there's also an

impact on sleep there because you know

me having chocolate at 2am

is probably not going to give um help me

have quality sleep at night

absolutely yes no I think there is a

link we're studying that we don't have

any results from from that trial but we

are logging Sleep Quality as well but

personally I've I've when I've started

to do it I do sleep better I did start

to get some reflux as well so a lot of

people suffer from heartburn right and

and that's again because you're eating

and drinking alcohol quite late they're

not leaving enough time to go to bed

that causes sort of stress on your body

when it's supposed to be relaxing so I

think yeah everyone give that you know

give that a try and you know it could be

right for you and it just makes you

think also

you're just thinking about more what

you're eating you know to say okay let's

give my body a rest just like you would

if you're doing an exercise regime

whatever it's just thinking about eating

in a different way other than just fuel

what about vitamins

you know I've I've got all these

vitamins by my bedside not by my bedside

by my by my bathroom sink in my bedroom

because you know I went I went to some

market and the lady there told me that

all these vitamins are important and

then I don't know I'm actually an ad on

Facebook or something and I ended up

buying more vitamins and I'm like a

collector of vitamins

we're not alone I think 50 of the

British population have a regular

vitamin or supplement every day and it's

massive industry I read chapter five of

your book so I'm a bit rude about

vitamins in there please please so I

know and I it's the thing that upsets

people most

um people say I don't I believe

everything else you say but I don't

believe your chapter on on vitamins and

I again it's it's a bit like a religion

you know popping a pill and uh hoping

that it's doing some good all the

evidence shows that

when you do a randomized controlled

trial these vitamins don't work

unless you've got some really weird

disease or deficiency or for some reason

you can't eat a normal diet but it's a

last resort for people who have terrible

diets if you have a a decent varied diet

with plenty of plants in it you don't

need

vitamins at all

and I used to take them and I don't take

any now except the occasional B12

because I

um I've always been low in B12 and I

have hardly any meat

but apart from B12

all the evidence points to these things

being a complete waste of money

you're telling me all those vitamins

I've swallowed over the last 10 years

have been

a

the result of me being duped by the

vitamin industry and have no material

impact on my health

yes well they might have had some

harmful effects like people taking

calcium and things like this are showing

if you take regular calcium tablets more

likely to get heart disease you're

joking I've literally got a tub of

calcium Tablets by my by my kitchen sink

as we speak yeah well there's calcium in

nearly every plant and things that we we

normally break down absorb in small

amounts regularly you take something

like a calcium supplement you might be

taking half a gram of it

our body isn't designed to break down

that huge slab of chemical and so it

doesn't get distributed well and studies

show that it gets deposited in your

arteries and and can Harden them up so

there's no there's no evidence that

calcium helps people doesn't help broken

bones it doesn't help osteoporosis all

the things that we were told it did do

so all the elements was out there and

you've got all these companies pushing

it so many of these things can be

counterproductive but my main worry

about them is if people think

they can pop a pill they don't have to

think about

proper food yeah and therefore

everything can comes in a bottle or a

pill they can go you know just have a

junk food diet and be healthy and that's

so wrong because diet I think is the

most

as I said the most important food

choices we make for our health and to

take stuff that doesn't work that could

be counterproductive and sometimes

harmful is is a Daft delusion

I have been under a dark delusion I've

got so many supplements upstairs well

they could have a placebo effect you

might feel better because you've taken

them you know you think I feel like a

healthy person because I take them I

don't know whether I am a healthy person

but I feel like one when I do it I do it

and it's really uncomfortable because

I'm taking sometimes I'm taking like

eight different pills like calcium and

potassium and whatever else em and when

I'm doing it even though it's hard to

swallow them and it tastes rancid I feel

like I'm doing future Steve a favor yeah

well there you go but clearly I have to

get someone to make you some dummy ones

so there's got nothing harmful in it and

you can take it a lot cheaper I'll give

that a shot

um what about sugar so I I was keto for

the last roughly the last two months I

tried

um the diet because I had a lot of good

things about the ketogenic diet as it

relates to an inflammation

and I have to be honest I lost about a

stone in weight fairly quickly first

time I've really seen a huge dip in my

weight but also not just that my the gut

issues that I'd had seemed to

to go so I I'd almost lived for the last

couple of years specifically like after

the age of 25 for some reason suddenly

foods that I thought had gluten in them

like white breads and pastas and even

like soy sauce and things like that were

making me live in this permanent state

of like being bloated and I'd go to the

toilet and I didn't feel great it was

kind of this pain throughout the day a

couple of hours after eating one of

those foods and then I tried the

ketogenic diet so I cut out pretty much

all of those things like I didn't have

any bread

most of the sort of processed bad carb I

don't even know what I'm talking about

here so correct me but I cut out what I

thought were the bad carbs that were

having a bad reaction on me and then I

cut out a lot of sugar like refined

sugars basically cut it completely out

and I ate meat vegetables

um berries and things like that

felt fantastic

lost a stone in weight

very very very lean body fat dropped

completely slept well high energy

um what's your view on the ketogenic

diet

well your story is I mean you can take

two ways one you could say you really

improved your diet because you had it

sounds like you had a pretty shitty Diet

before that right so yeah

um so you know what I mean so anything

could have been an improvement if

someone says if you're eating real foods

right so yeah it sounds like the keto

you weren't having keto out of a bottle

or a plastic and I was having meals yeah

proper home-cooked meals rather than

takeaways and exactly so you're making

the shift from perhaps you know the

average UK diet which is high in refined

carbs which is you know probably had a

fair bit of ultra processed foods in

there as well to this other diet so I

would expect you to feel better

um to be a keto diet you've got to get

to sit about 70

um fat right which yeah which is really

really hard for anyone to to sustain

it's virtually impossible that's why I

said for the last two months I'm no

longer keep on the keto diet so you know

you've you've gone you've so you have

probably done a mild keto diet right

that didn't put you into ketosis right

but got you off these high refined carbs

yeah so

but going back to the basic question

um keto diets do seem to work for people

with diabetes who are overweight as a

way of getting them off their

medications and sort of kick-starting

them into a better health pattern and

there are some people I think it can

work for

um I think for as a sustainable diet I

don't think it makes any sense I don't

think many people can still be on it a

year later if it's a true ketogenic diet

because

no Studies have really shown that people

can sustain eating that level of fat and

protein and virtually no carbs that's

all I ate for about eight weeks yeah but

you were eating you're eating plants as

well

um so I'd have like some plants wasn't

just steak was it it was I mean at one

point it felt like that it was there was

some plants in there there was like

lettuce and broccolis and stuff like

that but I was Googling everything to

check if it was keto friendly before I

put it in my mouth so yeah I mean so I

think what interesting is if you you

went from that to a more uh mixed

healthy gut-friendly diet

you know which includes fermented foods

small amounts of breads grains Etc

um I think you'd still find the same

benefits because you're shifting from

Ultra you know because I would suspect

that if you did the Zoe test for example

you would have quite a big reaction to

sugars and your fat control would be

quite good

so it sounds like you tolerate quite

large amounts of fat without too much

problem whereas the sugars would spike

like me you get a reaction you get

Hunger you get you know

these feelings of tiredness Etc so just

by upping your fat levels lowering your

refined carb levels you might have

produced the same without doing that

extreme idea because my problem with the

keto diets is ultimately it's

restrictive

you're reducing the number of foods

you're thinking about your uh

ultimately then harming your gut

microbes long term because you're not

giving them the variety of different

plants if you're not careful and that

happens to a lot of people they go down

any of these slightly fatty diets and

they end up with a much more restrictive

um

you know intakes than they would have

done which long term will cause some

problems for their immune health and

long-term health so that's why I'm

generally against these extreme diets of

any kind other than if you are you know

seriously ill diabetic and you're

overweight it for three months it could

be a really good way to get you off your

meds

interesting

yeah because I'm trying to I'm trying to

find now so I went from the keto diet to

the New York diet basically we went to

New York for two weeks and I just I

really [ __ ] up

um but now I'm back I'm trying to find

the nice Middle Ground the sustainable

middle ground that word sustainability

in my diet and also my fitness has been

key to me

um because if I can't sustain it there's

no point doing it because you end up

yoyoing afterwards so I went from the

keto diet as I said to the New York diet

and now I'm back in in the in the UK so

we'll go on the gut friendly diet which

is please detail the gut-friendly diet

just it's you know 30 different plants a

week

lots of fermented foods that's your

yogurts your kefirs your kombuchas and

if you like kimchi kraut

uh miso Koji Japanese food

eating the rainbow so you've got plenty

of colors on your plate everything's got

because that means they've you've got

plants there that have got these defense

chemicals and we haven't talked about

these but these are the polyphenols that

are in plants that give them that bitter

taste but also the bright colors that

you get in berries and you get in bright

colored lettuce and cabbages and

they are rocket fuel for your gut

microbes so the more you've got of those

the healthier your gut the more you

dampen down inflammation so really

important there's most diversity lots of

color and lots of high polyphenol Foods

things you wouldn't have thought are

healthy so dark chocolate I know you

like doctor was it well I'm not sure is

it milk chocolate you have it yeah it's

milk chocolate well you need to change

the dark chocolate my girlfriend says

that she's obsessed with dark chocolate

well and she always tells me take her

lead it's slowly slowly wean yourself

off the milk and get onto real chocolate

okay which actually tastes of

Sun really good rather than sugar isn't

white chocolate the worst yes do you

know how I know that that's the only

thing I know about food um I went and

did a chocolate making class and at the

start of the class the instructor says

pour the sugar into where these big

tubes and she said pour the sugar into

the tube so I'd like pulled a bit in she

was like no no no no

fill that tube with 60 sugar

I was like what she was like fill the

tube with I was like why she goes that's

white chocolate it's 60 sugar so I pour

this this sugar into this tube and it

fills at 60 and then I put this little

like oily liquid in and she was mix it

because that's white chocolate 60 sugar

there's people right now that are sat

there eating it would realize that

they're giving themselves early on to

diabetes but so dark chocolate is a good

example coffee we already mentioned and

if you like coffee I do I well I don't

for me coffee is more of a utility

I use it before I have these

conversations so I don't fall asleep

because I'm very you know I've never

been good boring guest well sometimes

but it's more so just to try and keep my

mind sharp and to keep focused but um I

I've read chapter 13 of your book about

coffee and I've always been a bit of a

coffee skeptic because I tend to have a

belief that everything in life comes

with a cost and no one I've sat here

with has ever been able to tell me the

cost of an artificial boost in my focus

attention energy I feel like nothing's

for free in life you know

so what is the cost of coffee

well I think there's a variability some

people there is a big cost they get the

shakes they can't sleep and it has other

neurotoxic effects if you have too much

so I think it's all about dose

and this is

it is a drug that if you get the dose

right

is very beneficial for you if you get it

wrong or you've got some genetic problem

you can't process it right it it's a

real it's it's a problem but some of the

benefits I was talking about

um are also there in decaffeinated

coffee

so it also has these because again it's

a great example of how we always think

of coffee as caffeine right and yet if

you do these epidemiology studies you

know these big population ones people

who are having regular decaf coffee also

have similar heart benefits so it's

other things in this fermented Bean that

are helping us and I think this is just

you know it's a great lesson moving away

from our reductionism we always like to

think of you know one food is one

vitamin or one chemical and that's an

easy way to think about it we can't

comprehend they've got a thousand

different

ingredients so decaf coffee but yeah

well you've got green tea is also pretty

good

um you know there's many other fermented

foods but um the polyphenols are really

good and important to realize in the

book food for life I go into

exactly that it's a practical guide to

when you go into the supermarket and you

go to the aisle so gosh I'm in the

vegetable oil do I get my usual iceberg

lettuce that

90 of us do

because it lasts for two weeks or you

know longer than our Prime Ministers or

do we go for a slightly more expensive

loose leaf rossololo with purple leaves

that has a thousand times more

polyphenols

and so you really shop on color

yes now I do I had no idea about this

until do you but but also the fact is

loose leaved means that those those

plants have had to survive in more

difficult conditions to fight off

predators and wind and everything else

so they're tougher that's why herbs and

spices are also tough because they're

the growing tips

of the plant that's where you get all

the good bits and so it's a rethinking

all this idea about what's good about

food in this when you start thinking

about your gut and you know the sugars

that it releases Etc so

um for you yeah I mean if I think it's a

general rule if everybody

at to keep their gut microbes happy

they'd be on a pretty healthy diet even

before you get into personalization

now chapter 13 of your book we talked

about coffee there is called coffee can

save your life

you mean that quite literally don't you

yes as an epidemiologist

if you drink three cups of coffee a day

you are less likely to die 10 years

later Jesus Christ but there's also a

link between um coffee depression and

suicide right

well there are lots of links

because I was reading that in studies

people were less suicidal if they'd been

drinking coffee

um

I think

that I'm sure there is a study on that

in general what I what I do when I look

at these is I don't take any one study

on its own I'll try to get

uh look at all the literature and say

how many studies there are in that and

is there a a confirmatory one that would

make it real or not so I've tried not to

over claim yeah because if you look at

you know

you look at the daily mail or you know

the general press in the UK they will

pick up on any one story and say coffee

gives you cancer coffee does this coffee

gives a dementia next year you know it

saves your life it does this so you can

switch

but what I think people need to do is

you know especially after covert has be

much more sort of selective about how

they see us study it's epidemiology that

it has to have confirmatory data so I

think yeah coffee we know improves

sports performance by one percent right

so for most people

that doesn't really matter right you

know one percent am I going to run

faster on my treadmill at the gym by one

percent no but it it does give you a

little bit of focus and uh for most

people it it's it you know it's a good

drug that's found in food and I like

coffee because also it helps it's

allowed in a fast so time restricted

eating

you allowed black coffee and black tea

and it um because it doesn't cause a

sugar Spike or anything else but it's

you have to cut out the sugar

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it's like more and more people are

becoming gluten intolerant

I consider myself one of them I am a

self-diagnosed gluten intolerant

I read chapter 16 of your book and you

think most of that is made up

yes

um most people think they're gluten

intolerant aren't when you test them

okay so that's that's the fact it

doesn't mean that

everyone's making it up some of those

will be real

but I think gluten got this bad rap

about 10 years ago and there's we know

that yes one percent of the population

really do have a gluten problem it's

called celiac disease and they'll be

vomiting and have terrible diarrhea with

a smallest bit of gluten then this is

how other group of people that believe

they have gluten intolerance of which

studies show about

three quarters when they're tested with

gluten are fine

in a blind blinded way if someone

slipped you a biscuit or something you

know or pasta is often the way to trick

people and I think many people

have

probably a more General irritable bowel

syndrome

that that are blaming gluten because

it's one they're taking that one protein

that they know about from foods that

have thousands of them and saying this

is the problem

again this reductionism and it then they

cut everything out but they might be

cutting out things that were like the

sandwich for example that was causing me

glucose spikes so they might feel better

when they cut that out and they then say

okay I've cut out bread therefore

um I'm not getting sugar spikes and

tiredness that must have been the gluten

but actually it was nothing to do with

that it's just

um cheap bread

that has nothing to do with it so I

think often people are taking clues in

this excuse and sometimes they do feel

better when they cut out all this Foods

because they're eating less

processed foods as a result of it not

always but it's something else in the

bread or the pasta that that they were

eating too much or they were eating too

fast or these things that I think are

important so I would urge everyone to

you know look again at where there is

gluten or it is something else about

their food habits before that was bad

and reevaluate it and you know build up

your plant

diversity and your gut microbes instead

because the worry is that all these

people on on gluten most of them have a

rather restrictive diet they get very

worried about new foods and that's like

the worst scenario because you end up on

a vicious circle where you you get more

and more nervous so you have a smaller

and smaller group of foods you're happy

with yeah your microbes get

diminished and you have much less

flexibility to deal with any new food

that hits you

one of the um we've got a fitness group

amongst some of my friends is about 10

of us in it and um we've been tracking

how often we work out and how frequently

we work out in the workouts that we do

and one of the things I have to say is

pretty much no one in the group has lost

any weight we've been doing this for a

year

and uh that kind of bucks what you would

think so the only time that I lost

weight was actually when I went on the

keto keto diet I went from 14 Stone 8 to

13 stone 8 in roughly in several weeks

but exercise and exercising for almost

religiously for the last two and a half

years doesn't really seem to impact my

weight at all in a you know in the way

that the

Fitness Experts might tell me on

Instagram

what's your stance on the rollback

exercise plays in weight loss

has very little role in weight loss all

the studies such long-term studies show

uh it doesn't help uh weight loss

and it's been grossly exaggerated as an

easy fix for our obesity problem

exercise doesn't help weight loss no

all the studies show that the only

caveat to that is if you have changed

your diet improved your diet and you've

lost some weight

at maintaining some exercise does help

prevent it going back up again but as on

its own if you don't change your diet

it's of no use and that's

well known Now by all the bestie experts

and all the studies this shouldn't make

us fat is that the culprit

is that one of the main things that's

contributing to no again that's that's

reductionism you know we the

but the reason there is an exercise

doesn't work it's important to realize

this is because

we all know this that you know you go

for a walk build up Hunger

before a meal that's what your parents

told you you know and everything about

exercise is after it your body slows

down your metabolism slows down and it

tries to regain the energy that you've

lost that's just what our Evolution and

so that's why it's a

you're not gonna it's great for your

health and I exercise

fantastic for your mood it's great for

your heart anti-cancer all kinds of

things we should all do it but

absolutely not if your goal is weight

loss you have to do something about

changing your diet and I think that's

that's the big a huge myth particularly

perpetuated by gyms and fitness apps and

everything else and it is complete

nonsense I read that you um when you

look to studies over 30 years and you

looked at how many studies had been done

on the relationship of exercise and

weight versus

things like sugar and weight there was

12 more 12 times more studies done on

the relationship of exercise and weight

versus sugar and weight and why why is

that

why is there less research done on the

latter

um I think that's the influence of

governments and the food companies and

the drink companies

so

a lot of the exercise

research done in the last 20 years was

sponsored by large corporations

who wanted to make this link between uh

exercise and weight loss so that they

could continue to sell sugary Ultra

processed foods and drinks and just say

it's the childhood obesity is because

we've we don't have playgrounds and we

don't encourage this and that's why the

Cokes and the Pepsis are always there at

the Olympic sponsoring Olympic events

and associating themselves with Sport

and they gave

hundreds of millions to various

physiology departments Sports

departments nutrition departments to do

research in this area basically it was

really hard to get anyone to do research

into how sugary drinks make you gain

weight or cause problems because they

the amount of money for nutrition has

been abysmally poor you know in from

from governments and that's why you know

we the only the first ever study of

ultra processed food in a controlled

trial was only about three years ago and

it's been around for you know 30 40

years so such is the power of that Lobby

that it it doesn't

necessarily distort the research in a

sort of you know evil way but they

point it to make sure that the

researchers are working in an area that

they want uh people to work in and

distracting them keeping away from

talking about sugars or even artificial

sweeteners which in my view are nearly

as bad because they're sort of

you know hidden

and deflecting us from the idea that yes

giving kids sugary drinks or even

artificial sweet drinks is going to be

bad for them and cause obesity wait so

I'm I've been I've cut my I cut out

sugary drinks

about a year ago

I still have the same Brands but I have

the no sugar version oh dear oh [ __ ]

what do you mean idea

well all the all the summary of the

trials shows that if you take

a young yard out young adults and kids

and they will say on two cans of you

know

full sugar sodas and you change into the

diet version

there's no real difference in in weight

or metabolic

changes in their blood

you will go to the dentist less

so you don't get as many fillings but

and yet you know you should be gaining

300 calories right if you were doing two

cans a day

so it doesn't work out as it should do

and that's because of the extra these

chemicals are not inert

so the sweeteners in kids they changed

their their brains to give them

they want more sweetness in their food

okay so it it could reflect your wish

for your your late night milk chocolate

who knows

um and it it makes it very difficult to

train kids to have more bitter Foods or

sour Foods if they've got these

artificial sweeteners in their diet all

the time but

they've now shown that all these

sweeteners actually affect your gut

microbes

so even Stevia you know these sort of

so-called healthy ones have an effect on

your gut microbes and they're not inert

so we know that saccharin and Sucralose

also cause spikes in your blood sugar

when I did it you know I have a Trace

they're not supposed to but they they

actually do things they're not supposed

to so we know very little about these

these products and my view is that they

are harmful probably not as bad as

having the sugar but they are absolutely

not a health

drink and we should be encouraging

people to have you know teas and

kombuchas and uh more more bitter

tasting interesting flavors and Foods

than just this Ultra sweet

uh chemical concoctions is this this

sugar conglomerate that I've been

funding much of the research that points

towards

um some of the things you're talking

about there

there that's also the conglomerate that

wants us to believe the calories in

calories out approach because

if I just view every all foods as kind

of equal and on this sort of calorie

number then I can drink some of the

sugary fizzy drinks and some of the

processed foods as long as I keep it

within that sort of calorie deficit I'll

be fine and so are they is that Sugar

conglomerate is the processed food

conglomerate

for the calorie model absolutely they

need that right they absolutely it's

vital you know zero calories or one

calorie you know on the can that's what

you see and you know you're fooling

people into thinking this is a healthy

drink and oh you know if I used to have

full Coke or Pepsi are now having the

diet version I'm getting 300 calories

less a day I should lose weight it's

exactly what they've been doing and

they're also desperate to show that

artificial sweeteners are

really healthy and they come down on

anyone who tries to say that they're you

know could be any way dangerous and yet

they're not obliged to test them

so none of it none of the chemicals

added

really go through rigorous testing on

how they affect our gut microbes and

this is

this you know their testing mechanisms

haven't changed in 50 years the gut

microbiome

um the microbiome as an organ one of the

things you talked about earlier was the

impact it has on mood

and you know this podcast is was started

as kind of a business podcast we have a

lot of people that are interested in you

know being more productive being more

successful reaching for their goals

how significant and how pertinent is the

microbiome on my performance as an

entrepreneur as a business person what

do I need to know about the relationship

as it relates to my mood my performance

my mind

well we know more about mood than

than anything else

um and so we do know that depression

anxiety is intricately linked to the

quality of your gut microbes

we know this from Mouse studies where

they've

transplanted uh poo from anxious mice

into sterile mice and those new mice

then become anxious and depressed really

so it's a transmissible condition and if

you go back to me telling you that one

of the chemicals that our microbes

produce is serotonin okay some sort of

cuddle you know love

friendly warm

um chemical that affects our brain that

you know is the key to dopamine and

everything else that goes on in our head

so

the levels of that are really important

for us having the right neurochemical

balance in our head that stops us

getting very depressed or very anxious

so we know that you can transmit it

between animals so when they say they

take the Poo out of one Mouse they put

it inside its gut inside its stomach to

give it the same microbiome makeup

inside its stomach yeah and then that

mask will become depressed and anxious

yes so a lot of the science behind

microbiome is based on

large-scale human studies where you've

just got

cross-sectional data or this is

associated with this but you don't know

if it's cause or effect and so there's

this whole other group that's been going

off of of of projects for 30 years where

they have these sterile mice

who have no microbes and you you create

in a lab these other microbes that you

would make them anxious or they're

genetically anxious you look at their

microbes and you put

take their microbes you put them into

the sterile mice and you can change

their mood and their attention span and

everything else about that so that that

shows that these have a direct effect

rather than just being secondary and

that it links to the human data that

shows if you take a groups of depressed

or anxious people you

virtually all of them will have a

deranged microbiomes and be producing

abnormal chemicals

and there have been now some recent

studies showing that

compared to traditional antidepressant

medication

probiotics do

as well

in many of these studies if you give a

course of probiotic medication but even

more impressive is if you give them a

Mediterranean gut friendly diet you get

actually better results

with more emission than you do with

antidepressant medication

so it's one of the best examples of how

you know feeding your your gut can

actually improve your mood and it's

particularly important because we're

seeing an epidemic of anxiety and

depression

that's partly because of not having many

good gut microbes to start with lots of

junk food diets which make it worse and

of course once you go into that cycle

once you're depressed you're not

thinking about food

the last thing you want to go at and is

you know oh I've got to go and get my

kimchi today you know you just what it's

just fuel so

once you once you understand that you

realize if you want to help someone with

depression you know the first thing is

not to put them straight onto an

antidepressant which in many cases

doesn't work because of this

individuality as we're talking about

which probably again related to the

microbes because they break down the

tablet into its active chemicals but is

to make sure they've actually got gut

friendly

diet and so this is a really exciting

area of research you mentioned them at

attention

the impact that the micro

biome can have on attention that's

really interesting to me because ADHD

has become a very

um

widely discussed

topic

do you think there's a link between ADHD

and the microbiome

highly likely yes I mean there's less

data in it than there is in depression

anxiety the studies are smaller but

those that I've seen all show again a an

abnormality in the gut microbiome of

ADHD kids

and there have been a few studies

showing

that you can reverse it with poo

transplants

which is another area that uh

um

it was quite big a few years ago it it's

not showing the same potential as it as

it did but certainly

affecting attention uh and mood with gut

microbes is definitely on the cards

these studies need to be bigger but

there's certainly preliminary evidence

that what's true for depression anxiety

is also true for this whole spectrum of

other conditions

also you know that have been linked in

the past to diet and you know over sugar

and e-numbers and all these kind of

things so

we've sort of known vaguely there's an

association but I think people haven't

really pinpointed

um the gut microbiome which I think they

should and so absolutely sure that if

you improve the diet of many many of

these kids with ADHD you you would

improve their symptoms and I know

there's some ongoing trials at the

moment it's really been startling over

the last couple of years how um mental

health has really taken center stage in

conversations even conversations on this

podcast most of them we discuss mental

health issues and things like anxiety

and depression as we look around the

world the stats around people that are

being prescribed antidepressant pills

like they're called ssris I believe

um is rising

and I think it's doubled over the last

decade or so with the US kind of leading

the way and then other countries like

China and Japan at the bottom of the

pack

what's your overall view on these these

disorders depression mental health

anxiety

um do you think it stems predominantly

from the microbiome

is that your perspective now from what

you've learned

no I think they're multifactorial so I

think we can't

who can't just blame the gut microbiome

because you do get

these conditions in people who are you

know otherwise healthy

um genetics plays a role you know I'm

going back to my old my old career

um a lot of evidence of strong genetics

in things like depression anxiety but

you can have the tendency to it but you

need to be triggered into it

you need some environmental event and it

could be that once your gut microbes get

in such a bad your gut health is such a

poor State your diet is so bad that

triggers this and you just lack those

chemicals that tip you over into it so

that's why I think

if you if you link these epidemics which

we're going through at the moment

whether it's dementia you know

depression obesity diabetes what are

they all linked for increasing amounts

of ultra processed foods in our diet you

know we're the number one

country in Europe for this rates are

still going up

kids have over 70 percent of their food

is ultra processed now horrendous

adults it's nearly you know between 50

and 60 percent of our of our meals so I

think that effect on the gut microbes

probably just tips this threshold

in people who are susceptible

so it could be that I think that

threshold is going to vary genetically

some people are very resilient some

people are actually uh quite susceptible

and that's my that's my view of it

um which isn't popular because it's

again I make things more complicated

than people like but

you know I think as as a as a scientist

I think most of these diseases are built

up of a different number of risks but

unlike your genetics

you know your gut health is something

you can do something about

and that's what you're doing with Zoe

exactly that's the whole idea behind Zoe

is to empower people to change their

health by

individualizing what they eat that suits

their own metabolism what is Zoe if

someone hasn't heard of Zoe before

Zoe is a

a personalized nutrition company that I

founded nearly six years ago with

uh to my co-founders who came to one of

my uh talks I was talking about the diet

myth and the microbiome and they came up

to me and said you know we think what

you're doing is really exciting we'd

love to talk about getting a company

together to personalize this

and

I I do get people asking me to do

startup companies and I said

I'm not really interested in this we can

spend several million on doing research

first you know I'm not interested in the

usual lifestyle company based on

marketing and I thought I'd never see

them again but they came back two weeks

later said yes we've got several million

we're up and running so I was I was

stuck then I couldn't say no

and basically that we got to go this

massive study called the predict study

which looked at a thousand people mainly

twins gave them these identical meals

gave them these really fancy Tech

glucose monitors with measuring blood

spots with with fat looking at their

microbes logging Foods seeing how

they've gone on for two weeks and use

that data as algorithms to then

predict how they would people respond to

any food

and then we met developed a home test

and launched that initially in the in

the US and uh in the last year the UK

and we've now got 50 000 people have

been this identical home test which is

now a program

that then once you've got your scores

personalized to you you can look up any

food and it gives you a score from

naught to 100

on

what that uh how that food is for you

based on your sugar your glucose blood

sugar profile your fat profile and your

microbiome so it's pushing everyone

to have less sugar Peaks less fat Peaks

and better gut health and so it's

changed you know so in a way that's my

moosli would give me a terrible score my

orange juice would you know a score of

zero

but it's also made subtle changes so you

know I used to eat bananas and now they

they score badly so now I have pairs

instead or apples

um little minor shifts often pushing

people and then you and you have a

virtual nutritionist who helps you plan

your menus to get overall scores that

are pushing you more and more in this

healthy direction so you just start to

understand how what's best for your body

and in a sustainable way and we don't

talk about calories it's like a taboo

word and we're not after crash dieting

or anything else it's like improving

yourself from the inside out

so you and most people

get improved dramatic improvements in

their energy levels which we hadn't even

thought about was the reason but people

started telling us I feel

much better because maybe we're cutting

out all these fat and sugar Peaks that

until the technology came along no one

knew about that were causing these

problems so it's going super well we've

got a still a quarter of a million

people waiting for the product in the UK

on the waiting list and

what's really nice is because we've got

this this commercial arm it allows us to

do these other

um we have the Zoe health study which is

a free app which

um

uh now we're moving that towards

lifestyle like this these fasting AIDS

and things like this we've got a neat

podcast the Zoe nutrition podcast which

is getting the word out about our

science plus blogs and things so you

know it's part of a whole package of

things that we're doing to sort of

educate

people differently and and as I said

make people think about food

in a very different way and I think it's

super exciting because we're you know

we've just raised some more money we've

done some crowdfunding as well which has

gone amazingly well I saw it this

morning

yeah big valuation for a company yes it

is

um and you know I think 200 million

that's a big number

it is and it's but you know I think

we've just

got people's attention exactly the right

time I agree and the technology has just

been exactly right so often it's about

timing yeah I agree I mean I've as I

said before we start recording I've had

two of my guests come here and tell me

about Zoe individually so I think it was

Davina McCall and Gabby Logan who both

mentioned it and then I'd had this email

in my inbox

um from a friend of mine who connected

me to George

and then I started reading about some of

the work that you'd done and saw some of

your videos and that's why I was

compelled to reach out and have you um

on this podcast but the idea of

personalized Health kind of debunks the

long-standing

narrative and myth that there's this one

perfect diet for all of us there's this

one set of foods that we should all be

eating to be healthy and this

personalized approach makes a lot more

sense

um

so I think that's the kind of the moment

in time that you've arrived perfectly in

from a Zoe perspective is this Awakening

to the perspective that personalized

individual diets are

um

The Way Forward yeah and it yeah and of

course covert didn't you know covert was

an amazing time for apps yeah and people

wanting to take

um

control

when they feel they had no control so I

think the idea that you give people an

app and they suddenly are empowered to

do things is a very new idea

particularly in the UK people said no

one over 60 is ever going to do that

they told us it's going to fail and it

it was an incredible success because if

you give people that interaction

that feeling that they are talking to

someone and they're getting information

back and it's a two-way process it's a

completely different idea to the old way

of communicating with people so I think

it is a super exciting time for

for Science and you know we're just

scratched the surface of what we can do

with this personalization because

once we get to a million people you know

the left of detail we can provide back

about

whether you should be eating in the

mornings in the evening you know how

hungry does this make this food make you

feel you know how do you stop you

individually stop getting those sugar

dips how

what combination of foods should you

have you know how do you react to

protein or the you know what do you do

to best sleep well all these things

which people want to know

are going to be possible once we get the

these huge numbers

this is all quite you know it's all we

turn on the I'm gonna have this

conversation with you then I'm gonna

turn on the TV or go on the internet go

on Instagram and all of the

the influences there are going to be

telling me a bunch of stuff a bunch of

fatty diets because they've all got

their own incentives and their own ways

of making money if there was like one

principle I could take away from all of

your work which I know is almost an

impossible to have to do but if there

was one thing just to focus on as I try

and navigate the bombardment of social

media and advertising posts that I'm I'm

gonna be

um on the receiving end of as I leave

this conversation what would that kind

of guiding principle be for me not to

forget

pick changes that are going to last for

life

not as a quick fix I think that's

that's what we're after and that's what

we want to try and instill is this

sustainable healthy way of eating so

that means not not feeling like I'm not

depriving myself and no okay I think

absolutely the the philosophy we have at

Zoe is that nothing is off the table

there's no nothing's banned white

chocolate even white chocolate you can

be the Milky bar kid you know you can

you can have it but realize that you

know it's that rare treat okay and the

more you just and so it doesn't break

everything and you have to you know

start again uh it's about making sure

that the rest of your week is full of

good foods that give you a high score

that can make up for it so we're all

gonna you know

you know the Christmas season everyone

goes crazy and overeats and stuff as

long as you know you've got this

long-term plan that your gut is healthy

and you're working and you're over all

these you're not going to get these

Peaks over time for years that's that's

the goal so absolutely it's about

enjoying food realizing that it's

incredibly important social event it's

why the Mediterranean countries probably

do so much better because it's so much

part of family life and social life in

even in the elderly whether it's with a

glass of wine it's just taking more time

enjoying the novelty of foods and

increasing our range of foods so it's

really broadening it so I really want

everyone to read love food again and and

not have all these Hang-Ups about I

can't have that I can't have this if

you've got enough plants on your plate

basically you know you can eat anything

Tim thank you I feel like it's a good

place to end and I'm really going to go

upstairs and reconsider that vitamin

stack that I have and also

um throughout all those zero calorie

sugar-free drinks that I thought were

good for me

um you've given me a lot to think about

and I'm incredibly honored to have met

you at this time in my life because as I

said it's very relevant to me but also

to have been given the chance to read

your books you've got so many amazing

Books five of them in total I believe

you're working on a new one

um my favorite was these two so the the

spoon fed book and also your most recent

book which is Food For Life which is

basically like a

good glossary of food is that an

accurate statement it goes through all

the key main foods and talks about the

role they play in our health

yes I mean it's been called a food Bible

food

it's a practical guide

to pretty much all the common foods so

you can get what the latest science is

telling you about them all from a

ethical health and environmental

perspective we have a closing tradition

on this podcast where the last guest

asks a question for the next guest not

knowing who they're asking it for

so um

the question that's been left for you

is

you seem nervous yeah I'm very nervous

why do people get people always seem to

get nervous when I ask this question

versus one of my questions ask me any

Science question I don't know well it's

you know

um the question that's been left for you

is

if you could say one thing

to a family member you've lost

who would it be what would you say and

why

well it's got to be to my dad

um

I guess I'd and I'd probably say

I'm really sad we never got to talk

properly

I think you'd be proud of me now

and because as I've explained he died

when I was 21 it's just the time you're

sort of coming out of stewardship you're

becoming more mature at the time you

could start to talk to your parents but

you don't so I feel that's my

um missing part of my life if you like

that um

I never got to discuss

um

anything meaningful with my father

why was that I have that problem too now

have that problem where I struggled to

talk to my

my father

um

I don't know I think

in in hindsight it's it's much easier

thing to say I should have done this

yeah and and I think it could be that

it's built into us that you know we have

a very different relationship to our

with our our fathers that makes it hard

to

to actually talk to them at the same

level or you know not feel some sort of

competition or

critique um so I

I you're actually right that if I was

sat down here with my father

um it would be quite different to

wishing I had done uh all those years

ago and I think it's part of that

grieving process probably

that having lost someone you always feel

somehow responsible you should have done

something before

um I think that's that's part of it and

many people have recurrent dreams also

about

um because my father you know I never

saw him he just I was just told he's

dead

came back from holiday that was it go to

the funeral

and it was a site I

unreal

um

series of events for me and so for years

I used to have these dreams he'd so you

know he'd been in South America and

suddenly appeared again oh so I had to

disappear and um I've come back so that

was an interesting idea going on my

brain that in some ways he wasn't really

dead and um you know I'd get a chance to

talk to him again so it must have been

you know a key part in

the those sub subconscious bits of my

brain

that communication goes both ways though

doesn't it

because

they have to

also be yeah in retrospect he you know

he was very much uh you know

a

1960s dad

uh that you know

um who wasn't really supposed to deal

with children or anything else his he

went to work and studied his study and

because he wasn't sporty never did

anything with with me so absolutely yeah

it's um but as I think you've talked

about before on this podcast you know

children have a very different

perception of that relationship they

feel it's um

it's their fault in a way yeah but uh

yeah he he was not a by modern stance he

wouldn't be seen as a great dad

um

Tim thank you

what a wonderful conversation really

really appreciate your time and thank

you for coming in and sharing your

wisdom with me absolute pleasure

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