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1
00:00:30,888 --> 00:00:32,906
Hello.
2
00:00:38,919 --> 00:00:40,818
It's just like Hollywood here.
3
00:01:13,127 --> 00:01:15,473
The anonymous viewer
is back there, yeah?
4
00:01:26,055 --> 00:01:28,750
I mean if you're...
5
00:01:28,808 --> 00:01:31,470
Let's say you're standing
in front of a group of people.
6
00:01:31,528 --> 00:01:36,590
Then it's best to reach them
all at the same time.
7
00:01:37,448 --> 00:01:39,434
That's best.
8
00:01:39,495 --> 00:01:43,369
You have an idea
of what's going on
inside of people.
9
00:01:43,431 --> 00:01:47,916
Some people
are very good at that.
They have this special talent.
10
00:01:47,975 --> 00:01:50,605
For example,
they walk into a room
11
00:01:50,663 --> 00:01:54,417
and can instantly sense
the inner questions
of everyone present.
12
00:01:56,455 --> 00:01:57,776
I mean it's...
13
00:02:01,288 --> 00:02:03,503
There's been a lot of that.
14
00:05:28,999 --> 00:05:30,385
That's it!
15
00:05:44,776 --> 00:05:46,096
Beuys speaking.
16
00:05:46,151 --> 00:05:49,457
Good morning, Mr. Beuys.
Good morning.
17
00:05:49,511 --> 00:05:51,661
Our colleague
from Midday Journal
18
00:05:51,719 --> 00:05:55,243
to Professor Joseph Beuys.
19
00:05:55,303 --> 00:05:59,537
Mr. Beuys, how popular
would you say you are?
20
00:05:59,591 --> 00:06:05,548
How should I know?
What do you want me to say?
21
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,910
Do you wank me to say
"Force 12" or something?
22
00:06:08,967 --> 00:06:11,183
Why not express it
in wind force?
23
00:06:11,239 --> 00:06:14,513
All right,
so I'd say I've reached
the end of the scale,
24
00:06:14,567 --> 00:06:16,913
about hurricane force.
25
00:06:16,967 --> 00:06:19,400
And as you know,
storm comes before hurricane.
26
00:06:19,463 --> 00:06:21,449
Mr. Beuys, thank you very much
27
00:06:21,512 --> 00:06:23,149
and I wish you
continuing success.
28
00:06:33,384 --> 00:06:36,494
It was meant to be an event
and that's what it is.
29
00:06:36,551 --> 00:06:41,451
A German event for New York.
Beuys is here and
everybody knows it.
30
00:06:41,511 --> 00:06:44,687
Joseph Beuys
is exhibiting his art
at the Guggenheim Museum
31
00:06:44,743 --> 00:06:49,457
and New York's press
is doing all it can
to help explain it.
32
00:06:49,511 --> 00:06:54,890
...that make fun of this whole
idea of your being an artist.
33
00:06:54,951 --> 00:06:58,924
If we could realize
these objectives...
34
00:06:58,983 --> 00:07:03,086
Hanging, lying and standing
on a 432-meter continuous ramp
35
00:07:03,144 --> 00:07:06,417
is almost his entire output
of graphic art and sculpture.
36
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,197
Waiting upstairs
are the felt-covered piano
from 1966,
37
00:07:13,255 --> 00:07:15,470
as well as the "Fat Chair"
and the "Honey Pump."
38
00:07:20,711 --> 00:07:22,992
"Forget the conventional
idea of art.
39
00:07:23,047 --> 00:07:24,717
Anyone can be an artist.
40
00:07:24,775 --> 00:07:28,616
Anything can be art,
especially anything
that conserves energy."
41
00:07:28,679 --> 00:07:30,632
This is the shortcut formula
for art.
42
00:07:35,271 --> 00:07:37,519
Where Beuys is concerned,
the basic philosophy
43
00:07:37,575 --> 00:07:42,409
is this attempt to demonstrate
how far you can push sculpture
44
00:07:42,471 --> 00:07:44,970
as a means of communication.
45
00:07:45,032 --> 00:07:49,451
Not as sculpture itself,
but as a vehicle for all these
different themes.
46
00:07:52,647 --> 00:07:55,441
Well, it was
an extraordinary feeling
47
00:07:55,495 --> 00:07:59,150
to meet someone
of a different generation,
a different nationality,
48
00:07:59,207 --> 00:08:01,455
a different background
completely
49
00:08:01,511 --> 00:08:05,068
who felt so completely
on the same wavelength.
50
00:08:08,071 --> 00:08:13,167
Just very, very
extraordinary empathy...
51
00:08:14,503 --> 00:08:16,751
in language and ideas.
52
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,520
It was wonderful to be
working with someone
53
00:08:21,575 --> 00:08:27,500
whose range of reference
was so wide, you know.
54
00:08:29,127 --> 00:08:31,473
And he was at the top
of what he wanted to do.
55
00:08:31,719 --> 00:08:33,706
He was riding the world.
56
00:08:33,767 --> 00:08:36,528
He was getting out
beyond the reach of the fatal.
57
00:08:42,055 --> 00:08:45,361
The magazine Capital
named him Number 1
58
00:08:45,415 --> 00:08:47,663
in the international
art business,
59
00:08:47,719 --> 00:08:51,505
ousting Warhol and Rauschenberg
from the top positions.
60
00:08:59,303 --> 00:09:02,064
When did they let him out of the hospital?
Do you know when?
61
00:09:04,359 --> 00:09:06,957
It's like the remnants of a construction site.
I was disappointed.
62
00:09:07,015 --> 00:09:10,343
It was fascinating.
63
00:09:10,407 --> 00:09:13,583
The felt piano
was more accessible
than other objects.
64
00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:16,269
For me, it's a new way
of thinking about art.
65
00:11:12,999 --> 00:11:16,426
...- but it stays the same?
- Right. You empty it.
66
00:11:16,486 --> 00:11:20,774
You drink the contents
and throw away the cap.
That's what's left.
67
00:11:20,839 --> 00:11:25,967
But you're aware
that you're moving away from
the traditional concept of art?
68
00:11:26,023 --> 00:11:30,028
Yes, of course...
And you really don't care
that people say,
69
00:11:30,279 --> 00:11:33,160
"What Beuys is doing
has nothing to do with art."
70
00:11:33,223 --> 00:11:36,016
Or do you...?
Of course I don't care.
71
00:11:36,071 --> 00:11:38,471
Art, yes, but in a totally
different sense.
72
00:11:38,535 --> 00:11:42,223
The concept of what art is
has expanded to such a degree
73
00:11:42,279 --> 00:11:44,941
that, for me,
there's nothing left of it.
74
00:11:44,999 --> 00:11:48,109
But within
a comprehensive system
75
00:11:48,166 --> 00:11:51,658
it's possible that
a traditional concept of art
76
00:11:51,719 --> 00:11:54,512
might be able to keep its place,
77
00:11:54,567 --> 00:11:57,131
in a hermetically sealed form.
78
00:11:57,191 --> 00:11:59,374
It would circle around
like an atom,
79
00:11:59,431 --> 00:12:01,068
somewhere inside this system.
80
00:12:01,127 --> 00:12:03,953
But the concept of art
has been expanded so far
81
00:12:04,007 --> 00:12:06,123
that every
normal situation is art.
82
00:12:06,183 --> 00:12:08,136
Every situation
or action...?
Yes.
83
00:12:08,199 --> 00:12:12,487
It's no longer an object
that you hang on a wall...
84
00:12:25,351 --> 00:12:30,414
Now if one takes this position
of an expanded concept of art,
85
00:12:30,471 --> 00:12:34,257
which is exactly
my position anyway,
86
00:12:34,311 --> 00:12:37,966
most people will regard it
as esoteric,
87
00:12:38,023 --> 00:12:41,809
insane, remote,
88
00:12:41,863 --> 00:12:45,453
marginal, peripheral...
89
00:12:45,511 --> 00:12:48,108
And so on and so forth.
90
00:12:48,167 --> 00:12:49,585
That's obvious.
91
00:13:29,703 --> 00:13:30,859
Mr. Beuys...
92
00:13:32,327 --> 00:13:36,048
At last year's
art fair in Cologne,
93
00:13:36,102 --> 00:13:40,903
you exhibited a work
that consisted of
a Volkswagen bus...
94
00:13:42,279 --> 00:13:47,025
out of which are coming
a large number...
95
00:13:47,079 --> 00:13:48,999
Maybe 20,
correct me if I'm wrong...
96
00:13:49,063 --> 00:13:51,944
40!
...40 small sleds,
97
00:13:52,006 --> 00:13:55,247
all of them
exactly the same,
98
00:13:55,302 --> 00:13:58,314
and I found it amusing.
99
00:13:58,374 --> 00:14:01,931
That isn't
what I wanted to say...
But that's good!
100
00:14:01,991 --> 00:14:04,872
No!
But that's great!
Why not?
101
00:14:04,935 --> 00:14:08,078
But...
Do you want to stamp out
laughter and fun,
102
00:14:08,134 --> 00:14:10,634
to have a revolution
without laughter?
103
00:14:10,695 --> 00:14:15,758
- I have a specific question...
- I want to get my money's worth
out of this revolution!
104
00:14:15,814 --> 00:14:19,306
I believe you.
105
00:14:19,367 --> 00:14:21,800
Is that...?
And I want others
to get their money's worth!
106
00:14:21,863 --> 00:14:25,704
I believe you.
But I want to ask you...
107
00:14:25,959 --> 00:14:29,135
Why didn't you use
baby buggies?
108
00:14:31,335 --> 00:14:32,753
Why not?
109
00:14:34,758 --> 00:14:38,064
Because I chose the subject.
110
00:14:38,119 --> 00:14:41,294
You should do something
with baby buggies!
111
00:14:42,950 --> 00:14:47,370
And see if you
can make something
that interests people!
112
00:14:54,503 --> 00:14:55,889
Max Bill...
113
00:14:57,863 --> 00:15:01,900
I agree with Mr. Beuys
that we're here to think.
114
00:15:01,959 --> 00:15:04,686
But it's not necessary
to think until daybreak.
115
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:08,783
So...
116
00:15:09,830 --> 00:15:13,006
If we take what Picasso said,
117
00:15:13,062 --> 00:15:18,736
"The purpose of art is not
to decorate our apartments,
118
00:15:18,791 --> 00:15:22,348
it's a weapon
against the enemy."
119
00:15:23,847 --> 00:15:26,411
Who is the enemy?
120
00:16:25,447 --> 00:16:30,161
Professor Gehlen,
you said the boundaries
of art had expanded enormously
121
00:16:30,214 --> 00:16:34,219
and that you no longer
feel provoked by art.
122
00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:37,738
Do you feel challenged
by his works,
123
00:16:37,798 --> 00:16:40,657
or do you see his art,
or anti-art,
124
00:16:40,711 --> 00:16:42,544
as a stimulating element? Or...
125
00:16:42,598 --> 00:16:45,709
What's my work
got to do with anything?
126
00:16:45,766 --> 00:16:49,072
It's irrelevant.
We're talking about a theory.
127
00:16:49,127 --> 00:16:52,269
We're talking about something
far beyond my work.
128
00:16:52,327 --> 00:16:55,371
Let's throw my work
out of the window!
129
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:59,119
And your work as well!
Maybe...
130
00:16:59,174 --> 00:17:03,888
- What is it you want?
- I want to expand people's consciousness,
131
00:17:03,943 --> 00:17:07,467
especially regarding
the current political situation.
132
00:17:07,527 --> 00:17:11,183
Okay...
I don't believe we live
in a democracy.
133
00:17:11,238 --> 00:17:13,999
I don't believe we're taught
to be free human beings
134
00:17:14,055 --> 00:17:16,816
due to our party-political
bureaucracy.
135
00:17:16,871 --> 00:17:20,809
- I'm willing to provoke
right now!
- Me, too!
136
00:17:20,871 --> 00:17:25,105
First of all, I want to return
to the original topic.
137
00:17:25,159 --> 00:17:28,018
If you want to expand or change
people's consciousness,
138
00:17:28,070 --> 00:17:30,024
- you must know
in which direction.
139
00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:33,138
That's why I'm prepared
to talk until daybreak.
140
00:17:33,191 --> 00:17:35,755
No, tell us now!
Aha, in one sentence.
141
00:17:35,815 --> 00:17:38,095
Now!
142
00:17:38,151 --> 00:17:39,983
People don't understand you?
143
00:17:40,038 --> 00:17:43,879
I always say that people
understand me very well.
144
00:17:43,942 --> 00:17:45,775
But they're afraid of it?
No.
145
00:17:45,831 --> 00:17:48,624
But...
But then we need to...
146
00:17:48,678 --> 00:17:51,504
It's not a bad thing
if people get aggressive.
147
00:17:51,558 --> 00:17:52,879
Let them be aggressive.
148
00:17:54,438 --> 00:17:57,199
At least that gets you
talking to them.
149
00:17:58,151 --> 00:18:00,137
You have to provoke it.
150
00:18:00,198 --> 00:18:03,210
Provocation always causes
something to come alive.
151
00:18:03,271 --> 00:18:06,446
Maybe they smash
their china at home.
152
00:18:07,878 --> 00:18:10,704
Or maybe they call me up
on the phone.
153
00:18:10,758 --> 00:18:14,632
It always happens
after I've been on TV,
"Idiot!"
154
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:22,312
They call you at home?
Sure,
whenever I've been on TV.
155
00:18:23,527 --> 00:18:24,683
"Asshole!"
156
00:18:28,583 --> 00:18:31,310
Yes... Just a second...
157
00:18:31,366 --> 00:18:34,988
For many people, art means
the freedom of randomness,
158
00:18:35,047 --> 00:18:38,833
"Ah, art.
I can do whatever I want."
159
00:18:38,887 --> 00:18:41,648
But what's the point of art
if nothing comes of it?
160
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:45,263
So whenever people
ask me if I'm an artist,
161
00:18:45,318 --> 00:18:48,745
I say, "Oh, cut the crap."
162
00:18:48,999 --> 00:18:55,372
I'm not here
to decorate these foul,
moldering, stinking systems.
163
00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:58,125
I'm not an artist at all.
164
00:18:58,183 --> 00:19:01,871
Except if we say
that everyone is an artist.
165
00:19:01,927 --> 00:19:04,906
I buy into that, but only then.
166
00:19:10,407 --> 00:19:15,339
I never said everyone is a poet,
a painter, a sculptor.
167
00:19:15,398 --> 00:19:20,331
I mean social art when I say
everyone is an artist.
168
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:23,184
I find what you're saying
to be terribly abstract
and intellectual...
169
00:19:23,239 --> 00:19:24,941
No.
170
00:19:24,998 --> 00:19:28,326
I'm talking about
the emergence of a new art
171
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:34,119
where everyone
not only can participate
but must participate.
172
00:19:34,182 --> 00:19:36,102
He was a totally
reasonable person,
173
00:19:36,166 --> 00:19:40,204
not at all strange or freakish.
174
00:19:40,262 --> 00:19:42,346
To me he was always
totally reasonable.
175
00:19:42,406 --> 00:19:45,003
The opposite
of what everyone else said.
176
00:19:45,062 --> 00:19:48,173
"Crazy," "strange," "peculiar."
177
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:53,326
He was the first
sane person I'd ever met.
He was totally sane.
178
00:19:53,382 --> 00:19:58,477
And right after our first
one-on-one conversation
at documenta, I knew,
179
00:19:58,534 --> 00:20:00,269
"You can trust him completely."
180
00:20:01,478 --> 00:20:03,246
I thought that was great.
181
00:20:05,287 --> 00:20:07,403
It had nothing to do
with his aura.
182
00:20:11,751 --> 00:20:17,840
I just thought he was someone
who was surrounded and
courted by people and...
183
00:20:25,382 --> 00:20:28,874
And then he had this incredible,
instinctive self-assurance
184
00:20:28,935 --> 00:20:32,045
and this penetrating gaze.
185
00:20:33,318 --> 00:20:34,606
And...
186
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:39,976
And a really sharp mind.
187
00:20:40,038 --> 00:20:44,326
You need both,
otherwise there's no point.
You're just a dreamer.
188
00:20:44,391 --> 00:20:48,745
But he wasn't.
He was and he wasn't
at the same time.
189
00:20:48,999 --> 00:20:51,182
I don't know how anyone
can stand that.
190
00:20:58,726 --> 00:21:02,796
He was totally consistent
in his words and actions.
191
00:21:02,854 --> 00:21:06,281
FOR THE DOCUMENTA
7,000 OAKS
192
00:21:06,342 --> 00:21:08,590
You're serious?
193
00:21:08,647 --> 00:21:13,197
If I say I'm going
to plant 7,000 oaks, then
I'm going to plant 7,000 oaks.
194
00:21:13,254 --> 00:21:17,291
I think the project
will take at least three years.
195
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:18,888
Thank you, Mr. Beuys.
196
00:21:33,734 --> 00:21:35,720
- You know this project?
- Yeah.
197
00:21:35,783 --> 00:21:37,703
It started--
198
00:21:37,959 --> 00:21:43,208
There is a small detail
and illustrates a little bit
my understanding of art.
199
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:49,031
I was invited very often
to the documenta.
200
00:21:53,767 --> 00:21:55,785
I was already invited
in the '60s.
201
00:21:55,846 --> 00:21:58,508
I participated with a sculpture.
202
00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:02,353
How would you help someone
who's dumbfounded by your work
203
00:22:02,407 --> 00:22:04,458
to understand it better?
204
00:22:04,518 --> 00:22:08,359
I would show him
the two utensils,
a spoon and a fork,
205
00:22:08,423 --> 00:22:10,801
and invite him
to eat the object.
206
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:15,918
Then I was again
invited in 1972.
207
00:22:17,606 --> 00:22:19,822
So I told them,
"Yes, it's very nice
to be invited,
208
00:22:19,878 --> 00:22:21,711
but I will not bring
a work of art."
209
00:22:23,590 --> 00:22:26,918
I'll bring the organization
for direct democracy.
210
00:22:26,982 --> 00:22:29,033
During the 100 days
of the documenta,
211
00:22:29,094 --> 00:22:31,953
you're spending 10 hours a day
here in your office.
212
00:22:32,006 --> 00:22:35,563
You speak with everyone,
you answer every question...
213
00:22:35,622 --> 00:22:39,408
There was an office, just daily,
permanently discussions,
214
00:22:39,462 --> 00:22:44,263
and permanently seminars
on the necessity
to change the system.
215
00:22:44,326 --> 00:22:46,542
But there was
no artwork at all.
216
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:56,297
At the heart
of the documenta, several
hectoliters of bee honey
217
00:22:56,358 --> 00:22:59,021
pulsate through
an extensive system of veins.
218
00:22:59,078 --> 00:23:02,188
"The Honey Pump
in the Workplace."
219
00:23:13,703 --> 00:23:17,096
And now, the last documenta,
again I was invited.
220
00:23:17,158 --> 00:23:20,431
So I said, "No,
I'm not even interested
to go into the building.
221
00:23:20,679 --> 00:23:23,057
I'll go completely outside
in town.
222
00:23:25,158 --> 00:23:28,519
I will work with the people
in Kassel and plant 7,000 oaks."
223
00:23:42,982 --> 00:23:45,383
The 7,000 trees in Kassel
each have a rock,
224
00:23:46,343 --> 00:23:48,721
so it's a tree monument.
225
00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:55,824
Every tree has
a kind of opposite pole.
226
00:23:58,438 --> 00:24:02,094
The tree keeps growing taller,
the rock stays as it is.
227
00:24:04,262 --> 00:24:07,372
I wanted to juxtapose
these two things.
228
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:09,197
So that over
the course of time...
229
00:24:10,726 --> 00:24:12,843
the proportions
change constantly.
230
00:24:29,894 --> 00:24:32,208
AN IDEA IS TAKING ROOT
231
00:24:32,262 --> 00:24:34,346
SET YOUR ROCK ROLLING
232
00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:37,457
If you take the 7,000 Oaks,
233
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:42,376
which is one of
the most incredible works
of the 20th century,
234
00:24:42,438 --> 00:24:47,119
Beuys assumed
that all these people who had
a commercial interest in him,
235
00:24:47,174 --> 00:24:51,147
who had bought his work
or were living from his work
236
00:24:51,206 --> 00:24:55,211
as gallerists,
in the buying and selling of it,
237
00:24:55,270 --> 00:24:58,926
that they would contribute
massively to this huge project.
238
00:24:58,982 --> 00:25:02,572
Seven thousand oaks,
you know, and the stones.
239
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:05,838
That's a lot of capital
and a lot of ongoing costs.
240
00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:17,064
His trips to Japan
trying to raise the money
for that-- that project,
241
00:25:17,126 --> 00:25:19,407
they were very intense
in those times.
242
00:25:22,118 --> 00:25:26,123
He did say about the trip
to Japan, you know, they really
wanted their money's worth.
243
00:25:26,182 --> 00:25:28,561
Business, take one.
"A" mark.
244
00:25:28,614 --> 00:25:29,519
Action!
245
00:25:36,742 --> 00:25:39,405
He did advertisements
for whiskey.
246
00:25:39,462 --> 00:25:41,895
He did endless lectures.
247
00:25:45,926 --> 00:25:48,938
Still anything to sign?
248
00:26:04,262 --> 00:26:06,859
Well, I think, uh--
249
00:26:06,918 --> 00:26:12,166
How do you see yourself
as a, in one way,
critic of the system,
250
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:17,063
and another way,
also like any other person,
participant in the system.
251
00:26:17,318 --> 00:26:19,272
'Cause I think it's, uh--
252
00:26:19,334 --> 00:26:24,299
No, it's not my role
to criticize.
My role is to give examples.
253
00:26:24,358 --> 00:26:28,908
Because most of the artists
are not interested to struggle.
254
00:26:28,966 --> 00:26:32,272
Just to come through with
another understanding of art,
255
00:26:32,325 --> 00:26:37,094
which is related
to everybody's working place,
256
00:26:37,158 --> 00:26:39,788
to everybody's problem.
257
00:26:39,846 --> 00:26:45,193
There is no theory developed
within the artists
and within the art.
258
00:26:45,254 --> 00:26:48,647
Also not within the art critics.
259
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:53,293
Leave away the galleries,
which are only caring for
a kind of transfer.
260
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:57,769
Let's say market processes
and so on.
261
00:26:57,830 --> 00:27:03,559
So I see there is no really
organic development of art
262
00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:04,876
in our society.
263
00:27:06,054 --> 00:27:09,578
Until the art and the artists
264
00:27:09,638 --> 00:27:13,162
don't develop another theory,
265
00:27:13,222 --> 00:27:16,103
which is, uh--
266
00:27:16,166 --> 00:27:19,276
which describes
the future society
267
00:27:19,334 --> 00:27:24,680
beyond capitalistic
and communistic systems...
268
00:27:26,438 --> 00:27:28,752
until then, there is no hope
269
00:27:28,806 --> 00:27:32,233
to discuss in an interesting way
270
00:27:32,294 --> 00:27:38,121
the role of the art
and what the structure
of the art in society.
271
00:27:47,974 --> 00:27:50,090
Well, I must say, Joseph,
272
00:27:50,150 --> 00:27:53,739
and that will last
to the next documenta.
273
00:27:53,798 --> 00:27:56,362
- It may last forever.
- Forever.
274
00:28:03,462 --> 00:28:06,823
And when the last stone
will disappear from this place,
275
00:28:06,886 --> 00:28:10,345
it says the last
of the 7,000 oaks is planted.
276
00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:45,481
7,000 OAKS
277
00:28:47,494 --> 00:28:53,004
I'd like to talk
a little more about another
one of your influences,
278
00:28:53,062 --> 00:28:55,855
your biography, your life.
279
00:28:55,910 --> 00:28:58,027
If I understand correctly,
280
00:28:58,086 --> 00:29:02,986
it's more than just
a personal affair for you.
281
00:29:03,045 --> 00:29:06,253
What does your personal story
have to do with your art?
282
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:11,176
Is your art as autobiographical
as is sometimes claimed?
283
00:29:11,237 --> 00:29:14,216
You're originally
from Kleve.
Yeah.
284
00:29:14,278 --> 00:29:17,802
You're the son
of a civil servant
285
00:29:17,862 --> 00:29:21,004
who went on to own
a fertilizer business,
I believe.
286
00:29:21,062 --> 00:29:24,750
So you weren't really
predestined to be an artist,
287
00:29:24,806 --> 00:29:27,567
especially not with your
family background.
288
00:29:27,622 --> 00:29:29,521
That's right, I wasn't.
289
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:42,056
My parents would've
preferred me to work in
the margarine factory in Kleve.
290
00:29:42,118 --> 00:29:46,286
Why did they want you to work
in the margarine factory?
291
00:29:46,342 --> 00:29:49,518
Because it was the easiest way
to get a good job,
292
00:29:49,574 --> 00:29:51,757
because it was on a par
with being a civil servant.
293
00:29:53,862 --> 00:29:56,492
My parents wanted me to go there
because they thought,
294
00:29:56,550 --> 00:29:58,470
"Whatever will become of him?"
295
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:48,489
But he did say he felt
like a stranger
296
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:50,120
in his parents' house.
297
00:30:50,182 --> 00:30:52,168
There was something
missing there.
298
00:30:59,013 --> 00:31:03,367
He felt no warmth there,
not even toward his mother.
299
00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:04,750
Not really...
300
00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:11,143
Theirs was a purely
pragmatic relationship...
301
00:31:11,206 --> 00:31:14,087
That's how I imagine it,
knowing him.
302
00:31:19,302 --> 00:31:22,575
But what he felt deep down,
that was something else.
303
00:31:31,974 --> 00:31:36,328
He said that his parents
rather neglected him,
304
00:31:36,390 --> 00:31:38,922
that they left him
to his own devices.
305
00:31:38,981 --> 00:31:42,506
But instead of being sad
about it,
306
00:31:42,758 --> 00:31:45,323
he was proud of it.
307
00:31:45,382 --> 00:31:48,176
It says a lot about him.
308
00:31:48,229 --> 00:31:50,608
That's normally seen as a flaw,
309
00:31:51,878 --> 00:31:54,540
but for him it was
a source of strength,
310
00:31:54,597 --> 00:31:57,805
being left alone, being free,
going off into the fields.
311
00:33:13,061 --> 00:33:16,967
Hasn't your appearance also
become something of a cliché?
312
00:33:17,030 --> 00:33:20,358
Your famous hat,
for example?
Yes.
313
00:33:20,422 --> 00:33:23,946
Does the hat have
a protective function,
314
00:33:24,006 --> 00:33:26,636
or is it simply
a trademark?
315
00:33:26,693 --> 00:33:28,941
It also has
a protective function.
316
00:33:28,998 --> 00:33:31,530
So you protect
your head with it.
317
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:34,831
Yes, I protect my head.
318
00:33:35,078 --> 00:33:39,116
You were seriously wounded
several times during the war.
319
00:33:39,173 --> 00:33:40,559
And you once...
Correct.
320
00:33:40,614 --> 00:33:43,472
...crashed with
your plane, in '43.
Yes.
321
00:33:43,718 --> 00:33:46,031
And you said,
322
00:33:46,086 --> 00:33:48,105
"It's been drafty up there
ever since.
323
00:33:48,165 --> 00:33:51,406
Actually,
I've got a screw loose."
Correct.
324
00:33:51,461 --> 00:33:54,669
I also said that
I was shot into shape.
325
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:50,281
Do you remember the crash,
326
00:34:50,342 --> 00:34:51,946
or did it happen
so quickly that...?
327
00:34:55,269 --> 00:34:59,241
I remember the plane going down.
328
00:35:00,806 --> 00:35:04,876
I said,
"Let's get out, let's jump."
329
00:35:04,933 --> 00:35:09,221
So there were other
people in the plane?
Yes, one other man.
330
00:35:13,509 --> 00:35:16,455
And he died?
There was nothing
left of him.
331
00:35:18,502 --> 00:35:23,052
Apart from a few pieces of bone,
everything was...
332
00:35:33,381 --> 00:35:35,084
Yes, well...
333
00:35:35,141 --> 00:35:40,303
I remember hearing
the voices of the Tatars.
334
00:35:40,357 --> 00:35:43,817
I remember them finding me
and standing around me.
335
00:35:44,933 --> 00:35:46,952
But then I lost consciousness.
336
00:35:51,590 --> 00:35:55,212
All the things I remember
happened when I was
only partly conscious,
337
00:35:55,269 --> 00:36:00,300
because I didn't regain
consciousness for about 12 days.
338
00:36:00,357 --> 00:36:03,435
When I came to, I was in
a German hospital in the Crimea.
339
00:36:11,173 --> 00:36:13,836
I'd like to ask you
about that war period
340
00:36:13,893 --> 00:36:16,425
and how it began to manifest
itself in works of art.
341
00:36:18,341 --> 00:36:23,470
When I was wounded very heavily,
that such tribes found me,
342
00:36:23,526 --> 00:36:28,523
and belabored my body
with this kind of fat.
343
00:36:28,582 --> 00:36:32,423
So they took me out
of this crash heap
344
00:36:32,678 --> 00:36:34,827
of crashed airplane,
345
00:36:34,886 --> 00:36:37,450
brought me into a felt tent
346
00:36:37,509 --> 00:36:42,507
wrapped me with
a kind of fat and tallow
as an ointment to keep me warm.
347
00:36:42,566 --> 00:36:47,279
Is that true?
True?
It's an event during the war.
348
00:36:48,773 --> 00:36:51,239
Do you fantasize?
349
00:36:54,373 --> 00:36:58,989
I mean, one shouldn't
mix this thing, because fantasy
itself is very positive.
350
00:36:59,046 --> 00:37:02,702
It doesn't matter.
It's only his interpretation of it anyway.
351
00:37:04,517 --> 00:37:07,823
You don't fantasize.
Was that the answer?
352
00:37:51,973 --> 00:37:55,759
And I think the philosophy
of Zeige define Wunde
353
00:37:55,813 --> 00:37:58,508
is at the very core
of Beuys's work.
354
00:37:58,566 --> 00:38:01,065
And you can look at it
in many different levels.
355
00:38:01,125 --> 00:38:07,149
First of all,
the wound of having
separated instinct and logic
356
00:38:07,206 --> 00:38:08,908
in our mentality.
357
00:38:08,965 --> 00:38:11,693
We're all wounded
by that split, you know?
358
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:14,860
And he often used
the double images.
359
00:38:14,917 --> 00:38:17,645
It shouldn't be
literally interpreted.
360
00:38:17,701 --> 00:38:21,488
But, you know,
somewhere thinking about that.
361
00:38:21,541 --> 00:38:27,368
And then going back
in his own autobiography,
the experience of the war.
362
00:38:27,429 --> 00:38:29,545
Not the literal wound.
363
00:38:29,798 --> 00:38:32,046
You recover from
a literal wound,
364
00:38:32,101 --> 00:38:36,171
but coming back home
to a totally devastated country.
365
00:39:05,925 --> 00:39:08,205
ACADEMY OF ARTS
366
00:39:44,741 --> 00:39:47,087
Beuys was a very slim,
367
00:39:48,197 --> 00:39:51,689
very skinny young man...
368
00:39:53,381 --> 00:39:56,327
with a face
that you never forgot.
369
00:39:58,181 --> 00:40:02,502
It was somewhat deformed
as a result of one
of the crashes.
370
00:40:02,565 --> 00:40:06,471
He'd suffered a broken nose
as well as injuries
to his skull.
371
00:40:07,493 --> 00:40:09,894
And...
372
00:40:09,957 --> 00:40:12,140
But he was a man
with tremendous charisma,
373
00:40:12,197 --> 00:40:14,663
who radiated
a tremendous warmth.
374
00:40:50,021 --> 00:40:53,414
KLEVE, FEBRUARY 28,1957
375
00:40:56,678 --> 00:41:03,017
"After not having
visited Beuys for a long time,
I called on him today.
376
00:41:05,349 --> 00:41:08,361
He was going through
another phase
377
00:41:08,421 --> 00:41:13,419
of neither washing
nor putting on any clothes.
378
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:18,470
He's abandoning himself
more and more,
379
00:41:18,533 --> 00:41:21,032
as an artist too.
380
00:41:24,645 --> 00:41:27,755
How often he weeps,
381
00:41:27,813 --> 00:41:32,494
says he's going to leave,
go somewhere, forever."
382
00:42:01,477 --> 00:42:05,198
It probably had something to do
383
00:42:05,253 --> 00:42:08,134
with the fact
that he was undernourished.
384
00:42:10,149 --> 00:42:13,771
And also with his total
lack of success.
385
00:42:19,461 --> 00:42:20,552
In any event,
386
00:42:21,445 --> 00:42:23,628
that was the...
387
00:42:25,285 --> 00:42:28,297
That was the time
388
00:42:28,357 --> 00:42:31,979
when he sank into the quagmire
of his own inner misery.
389
00:42:54,405 --> 00:43:00,940
"The chief resident spoke
about the examination in Essen.
390
00:43:00,997 --> 00:43:05,962
As I understood it,
he'd diagnosed Beuys
as being incurable."
391
00:43:18,373 --> 00:43:20,719
He stayed there all summer.
392
00:43:20,773 --> 00:43:22,890
He stayed in my room,
393
00:43:23,749 --> 00:43:25,833
and when he was...
394
00:43:27,621 --> 00:43:32,269
When he was depressed,
he hardly responded.
395
00:43:32,325 --> 00:43:36,111
And during the worst periods,
he hardly ever left his room,
396
00:43:36,165 --> 00:43:38,184
not even for a meal.
397
00:43:39,461 --> 00:43:41,098
And on his better days...
398
00:43:43,045 --> 00:43:47,115
he'd spend the whole day
outside with us
from morning till evening,
399
00:43:47,173 --> 00:43:48,875
in the meadows or fields.
400
00:44:29,477 --> 00:44:31,790
And then we told him
401
00:44:31,845 --> 00:44:34,158
he should do something again,
at all costs.
402
00:44:34,213 --> 00:44:36,678
He said,
"I'm finished with art.
403
00:44:37,957 --> 00:44:40,587
I don't want anything more
to do with it."
404
00:44:43,621 --> 00:44:47,756
I said,
"You can't carry on like this."
405
00:44:47,813 --> 00:44:53,902
And then my mother went up
to his room and knocked
on the door, "Mr. Beuys?"
406
00:44:53,957 --> 00:44:57,383
But Mr. Beuys didn't want
to come out, and she said,
407
00:44:57,637 --> 00:45:02,089
"I want to talk to you,
open the door," which he did.
408
00:45:02,149 --> 00:45:06,251
And then she appealed
to his conscience.
409
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:08,808
And she told him
410
00:45:08,869 --> 00:45:13,190
that his gift was also
an obligation, a duty
411
00:45:13,252 --> 00:45:15,598
toward the spirit
that had given him that gift.
412
00:46:06,916 --> 00:46:08,717
After you graduated
from art school,
413
00:46:08,773 --> 00:46:13,061
you withdrew to the countryside
for ten years.
414
00:46:13,124 --> 00:46:14,859
Yes, I didn't feel the need
415
00:46:14,917 --> 00:46:16,684
to be part
of the contemporary art scene.
416
00:46:19,429 --> 00:46:24,045
When did you decide
to start doing performance art?
417
00:46:24,101 --> 00:46:27,243
I think it developed
quite organically
418
00:46:27,301 --> 00:46:32,233
from my aim to expand
the boundaries of art.
419
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:22,666
Beuys had to create
a basis for himself
420
00:47:22,725 --> 00:47:25,190
in order to overcome
this crisis.
421
00:47:25,253 --> 00:47:28,330
He needed a pedestal
to stand on,
422
00:47:28,389 --> 00:47:29,993
rather like
the Archimedean point,
423
00:47:30,053 --> 00:47:32,879
"Give me a place to stand
and I'll move the Earth."
424
00:47:41,125 --> 00:47:43,722
But it was also
a spiritual basis...
425
00:47:45,253 --> 00:47:47,686
his theory
of "social sculpture."
426
00:47:50,885 --> 00:47:55,631
How he did that,
it's something I...
427
00:47:55,685 --> 00:47:59,526
"How is a figure,
a form created?"
428
00:47:59,588 --> 00:48:02,120
"Where does the form come from?
What is form?"
429
00:48:10,148 --> 00:48:11,883
Yes, that's interesting.
430
00:48:14,981 --> 00:48:18,702
Certainly, when I began...
431
00:48:18,757 --> 00:48:21,703
And I'm referring
to my drawings again...
432
00:48:21,764 --> 00:48:25,256
I was actually...
How can I put it?
433
00:48:25,316 --> 00:48:27,236
I was feeling my way around.
434
00:48:28,388 --> 00:48:31,432
I was groping about.
435
00:48:31,493 --> 00:48:35,530
Almost as if I was
in the dark, you might say.
436
00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:38,568
I had to touch something...
437
00:48:40,676 --> 00:48:42,477
and often had to lay it down...
438
00:48:43,781 --> 00:48:48,298
and examine it myself and see
439
00:48:48,356 --> 00:48:53,834
if what I'd created might be
of interest to anyone at all.
440
00:48:55,332 --> 00:48:59,567
But, above all, whether
what I'd created interested me.
441
00:49:13,604 --> 00:49:15,852
My choice of materials
442
00:49:15,909 --> 00:49:19,914
doesn't initially come
from a painterly impulse,
443
00:49:19,972 --> 00:49:22,220
it comes from the wish
to create sculpture.
444
00:49:28,580 --> 00:49:30,348
These materials
appeared at a time
445
00:49:30,405 --> 00:49:35,599
when I was trying to break down
the term "sculpture"
into its components.
446
00:49:39,621 --> 00:49:43,277
And felt appeared
as an insulating element
447
00:49:43,332 --> 00:49:45,995
within the three configurations
of sculpture:
448
00:49:46,052 --> 00:49:48,879
undetermined,
determined and movement.
449
00:49:51,397 --> 00:49:54,408
The simplest thing
in the world,
450
00:49:54,469 --> 00:49:58,539
when describing
the process of a production,
451
00:49:58,597 --> 00:50:00,037
is called...
452
00:50:02,597 --> 00:50:04,997
"undetermined starting point..."
453
00:50:09,637 --> 00:50:12,518
"momentum" and "form."
454
00:50:15,493 --> 00:50:17,959
FAT CORNER
455
00:50:25,093 --> 00:50:30,090
Fat was the ideal material
for showing states of chaotic...
456
00:50:32,292 --> 00:50:34,027
condition...
457
00:50:35,333 --> 00:50:40,363
for showing movement
and the principle of form.
458
00:50:44,420 --> 00:50:48,359
The principle of form appears
as a "fat corner" in a room.
459
00:50:56,709 --> 00:51:00,266
In the fat,
you have an ideal opportunity
460
00:51:00,517 --> 00:51:04,391
to show the components
of the sculpture
through the performance.
461
00:51:06,661 --> 00:51:09,422
But I'm referring to sculpture
not as a static element,
462
00:51:09,476 --> 00:51:12,335
but as a universal one.
463
00:51:31,621 --> 00:51:36,683
I'd like to come back
to this idea of rationale.
464
00:51:36,741 --> 00:51:40,876
If you make your "fat corners,"
for example...
465
00:51:40,933 --> 00:51:44,806
- Yes.
- ...then you think about
making them beforehand.
466
00:51:44,869 --> 00:51:46,887
They don't appear on their own,
467
00:51:46,949 --> 00:51:49,895
without a rationale,
without thought.
468
00:51:49,956 --> 00:51:52,586
The fat doesn't get
into the corner on its own.
469
00:51:52,645 --> 00:51:58,286
Correct! All right,
that's what you think.
But I can't be so impatient.
470
00:51:58,340 --> 00:52:00,654
Maybe you can
allow yourself to be.
471
00:52:00,708 --> 00:52:03,273
All I can say is that
it's no longer possible
472
00:52:03,332 --> 00:52:05,994
to talk about sculpture
in a conventional sense,
473
00:52:06,052 --> 00:52:08,071
as if one knew what it was.
474
00:52:08,132 --> 00:52:11,973
"A sculpture is something
that stands there,
like a coat rack.
475
00:52:12,036 --> 00:52:14,469
It's spatial,
you can put a hat on it..."
476
00:52:14,533 --> 00:52:17,893
I've tried to apply
the term to people,
477
00:52:17,957 --> 00:52:22,540
so that the things
I find in sculpture
I can find in people too.
478
00:52:22,596 --> 00:52:26,503
That's right.
You might laugh and think
how irrelevant that is.
479
00:52:26,564 --> 00:52:28,266
But I've done it!
480
00:52:43,877 --> 00:52:48,427
And now we come
to another concept that
plays an important part.
481
00:52:48,485 --> 00:52:53,384
I suggest that the first product
of human creativity is thought,
482
00:52:53,444 --> 00:52:57,165
and that because of this,
thought itself is sculpture.
483
00:52:57,221 --> 00:53:00,014
Thoughts affect the world.
484
00:53:00,068 --> 00:53:04,040
THOUGHT = SCULPTURE
"FREEDOM"
485
00:53:20,196 --> 00:53:22,575
Düsseldorf Academy of Arts.
486
00:53:22,628 --> 00:53:25,007
- A demon is destroying-
487
00:53:25,061 --> 00:53:28,105
Joseph Beuys,
professor and sculptor.
488
00:53:28,357 --> 00:53:33,223
He uses the academy to carry
his ideas out into society.
489
00:53:33,284 --> 00:53:37,387
Fundamentally,
every human being
can be creative
490
00:53:37,445 --> 00:53:42,126
if an opportunity
is created for him or her
to be able to be creative.
491
00:53:43,876 --> 00:53:46,059
That's the question
of equal opportunity
in education.
492
00:53:49,188 --> 00:53:52,909
Here, a professor
is putting his concept
of art into action,
493
00:53:52,964 --> 00:53:55,364
a concept that breaks out
of the aesthetic realm
494
00:53:55,429 --> 00:53:57,229
and applies
to all areas of life.
495
00:54:04,996 --> 00:54:09,677
You have to ask yourself
how we've arrived at this
sorry state of affairs,
496
00:54:09,733 --> 00:54:11,981
what's causing these ills?
497
00:54:12,036 --> 00:54:16,717
We're forced to use
everything at our disposal.
498
00:54:16,772 --> 00:54:19,816
In that sense,
it looks like a...
499
00:54:19,876 --> 00:54:23,303
Beuys' class
had a high profile
500
00:54:23,364 --> 00:54:27,205
and was very much tailored
to Beuys himself.
501
00:54:27,269 --> 00:54:32,714
And I was one of the worst,
I was a true disciple of Beuys,
502
00:54:32,773 --> 00:54:37,007
and that's the worst thing
that can happen
at any art academy,
503
00:54:37,061 --> 00:54:42,888
when, instead of wanting
to do their own thing,
504
00:54:42,948 --> 00:54:47,465
the students fall into line
with a particular idea.
505
00:54:47,525 --> 00:54:49,925
If that happens
at an academy of art...
506
00:54:49,988 --> 00:54:52,869
An is very sensitive
in that respect,
507
00:54:52,933 --> 00:54:55,148
because it stinks of ideology
from the get-go.
508
00:55:00,292 --> 00:55:04,101
There certainly
are people who have a great
affinity with my ideas,
509
00:55:04,357 --> 00:55:07,717
but they aren't
we work together.
510
00:55:58,821 --> 00:56:02,094
Beuys was with us in the class
from morning till evening.
511
00:56:04,036 --> 00:56:06,251
There had never been
anything like it at the academy.
512
00:56:09,284 --> 00:56:13,190
When he was talking to someone,
critiquing their work,
for example,
513
00:56:13,252 --> 00:56:16,613
he always found a new point
that had to be worked on.
514
00:56:16,676 --> 00:56:20,462
And you'd be thinking,
"Let's go get a coffee,
for God's sake,"
515
00:56:20,516 --> 00:56:22,186
but he'd go on and on.
516
00:56:26,596 --> 00:56:29,324
Do you distinguish
between Beuys the artist
517
00:56:29,380 --> 00:56:30,504
and Beuys the teacher?
518
00:56:30,757 --> 00:56:32,197
No, not at all.
519
00:56:34,628 --> 00:56:37,869
And that's exactly
what's most important to me.
520
00:56:39,524 --> 00:56:41,510
I've said again and again
that...
521
00:56:42,884 --> 00:56:45,132
that I see this kind of work
522
00:56:45,188 --> 00:56:49,510
as a product of art.
523
00:56:49,572 --> 00:56:54,373
Friday, April 28, 10:30 a.m.
524
00:56:54,436 --> 00:56:57,033
Joseph Beuys
outlines his latest project.
525
00:56:58,244 --> 00:57:00,939
What I'd like to do
526
00:57:00,996 --> 00:57:04,040
is create a kind
of cultural center
here in Dusseldorf
527
00:57:04,101 --> 00:57:06,763
that can be interesting
for the whole world,
528
00:57:06,820 --> 00:57:08,588
as a meeting point.
529
00:57:08,644 --> 00:57:12,300
Then I'd like
to create a second tier:
530
00:57:12,356 --> 00:57:15,946
the permanent
presentation of artists
from all around the world...
531
00:57:23,557 --> 00:57:25,477
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
532
00:57:25,540 --> 00:57:27,918
No, no, no, no, no.
533
00:57:27,972 --> 00:57:29,674
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
534
00:57:30,596 --> 00:57:33,193
No, no, no, no, no.
535
00:57:33,252 --> 00:57:36,296
Chinese artists,
Russian artists,
Hungarian artists,
536
00:57:36,356 --> 00:57:40,972
American artists,
Finnish artists, and so on.
537
00:57:41,028 --> 00:57:46,757
So that we can overcome
the problem of the art market
538
00:57:46,820 --> 00:57:48,740
by utilizing the time factor.
539
00:57:48,804 --> 00:57:54,347
But there were
some professors there
who took offense at Beuys.
540
00:57:54,404 --> 00:57:56,903
Because,
with his concept of freedom,
541
00:57:57,157 --> 00:58:01,194
he'd hit a raw nerve
542
00:58:01,252 --> 00:58:06,053
by,
without necessarily wanting to,
making his colleagues look bad.
543
00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:10,054
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
544
00:58:10,116 --> 00:58:12,233
No, no, no, no, no.
545
00:58:12,292 --> 00:58:15,751
He'd hit a raw nerve
by basically saying:
546
00:58:15,812 --> 00:58:18,027
"You're artists,
this is about art.
547
00:58:18,277 --> 00:58:21,768
Art is total freedom
and self-determination.
548
00:58:21,828 --> 00:58:24,043
And what are you?
Civil servants."
549
00:58:44,804 --> 00:58:49,354
I want
to draw people's attention
to misguided policies,
550
00:58:49,412 --> 00:58:54,125
and I'm no longer interested
in causing trouble
at the academy.
551
00:58:54,180 --> 00:58:58,086
I want to inform people
about the true culprits
in our system.
552
00:58:58,148 --> 00:59:00,264
I want to inform
and educate people.
553
00:59:05,380 --> 00:59:08,490
That's the idea
people often laugh at me for:
554
00:59:08,548 --> 00:59:10,632
"Can sculpture
change the world?"
555
00:59:18,884 --> 00:59:20,968
JOSEPH BEUYS
& ABRAHAM DAVID CHRISTIAN
556
00:59:21,028 --> 00:59:24,553
DIRECT DEMOCRACY VIA REFERENDA
557
00:59:58,276 --> 01:00:00,654
The documenta was over,
558
01:00:00,708 --> 01:00:03,370
and the new semester
began the next day.
559
01:00:03,428 --> 01:00:07,715
All the bigwigs from
the government of North
Rhine-Westphalia were invited.
560
01:00:09,028 --> 01:00:13,775
And Joseph Beuys stood up
in front of them
561
01:00:13,828 --> 01:00:17,637
and made a speech
to them in grunts.
562
01:00:54,116 --> 01:00:57,291
I don't think it would've
occurred to anyone to laugh.
563
01:00:57,348 --> 01:01:00,676
It was too dangerous.
564
01:01:35,300 --> 01:01:37,132
IS THIS THE CHOP
FOR ART PROFESSOR BEUYS?
565
01:01:37,188 --> 01:01:39,054
EIGHT COLLEAGUES
MUTINY AGAINST HIM
566
01:01:39,108 --> 01:01:40,941
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
567
01:01:40,996 --> 01:01:42,185
TROUBLE WITH BEUYS
568
01:01:42,244 --> 01:01:43,466
No, no, no, no.
569
01:01:43,716 --> 01:01:45,702
I protested against
the situation
570
01:01:45,764 --> 01:01:50,412
that 500 people were demanding
an educational place
571
01:01:50,468 --> 01:01:52,901
where they could
develop their abilities,
572
01:01:52,963 --> 01:01:55,910
and the state says,
"No. We can only take ten.
573
01:01:55,972 --> 01:01:57,772
So make a selection."
574
01:01:57,828 --> 01:02:02,115
And so the professors
took the students,
heaps of things,
575
01:02:02,180 --> 01:02:05,126
Look, oh, not interested.
576
01:02:05,188 --> 01:02:06,923
Ah.
577
01:02:08,292 --> 01:02:11,118
And I took every student
into my class.
578
01:02:11,172 --> 01:02:14,958
Which resulted
I had about 400 students
in my class.
579
01:02:15,012 --> 01:02:16,998
But that was a big riot.
580
01:02:17,060 --> 01:02:19,526
For the state it was a riot.
581
01:02:24,996 --> 01:02:28,139
Students at the Academy of Arts
in Düsseldorf
582
01:02:28,196 --> 01:02:32,331
demonstrate for one
of their teachers,
Professor Joseph Beuys.
583
01:02:32,388 --> 01:02:34,701
NO REPLACEMENT FOR BEUYS
584
01:02:36,644 --> 01:02:39,787
How do you judge the general
situation at the academy?
585
01:02:39,844 --> 01:02:41,612
It's pretty chaotic.
586
01:02:41,668 --> 01:02:43,752
But we didn't cause this chaos,
587
01:02:43,812 --> 01:02:48,046
it was those in authority
in the cultural bureaucracy.
588
01:03:04,611 --> 01:03:06,859
Let's talk about what happened.
589
01:03:06,916 --> 01:03:12,590
Along with 54 applicants
who'd been turned down
by the academy,
590
01:03:12,643 --> 01:03:14,411
you occupied its offices.
591
01:03:14,467 --> 01:03:18,188
What did you hope
to achieve by this?
592
01:03:18,244 --> 01:03:21,288
I wanted to very calmly
see to it
593
01:03:21,348 --> 01:03:24,042
that these students,
who already attend my class,
594
01:03:24,100 --> 01:03:25,159
should be enrolled.
595
01:03:31,332 --> 01:03:34,191
On October 5, we were informed
596
01:03:34,244 --> 01:03:38,379
that it was
Professor Beuys' intention,
597
01:03:38,436 --> 01:03:41,960
as of October 10,
598
01:03:42,020 --> 01:03:44,813
to remain
in the academy's offices
for a prolonged duration.
599
01:03:53,571 --> 01:03:59,279
The letter to Mr. Beuys,
which was written by proxy
for the undersecretary,
600
01:03:59,331 --> 01:04:02,059
had been agreed on by me,
601
01:04:02,115 --> 01:04:06,283
and in it, it was pointed out
to Professor Beuys
602
01:04:06,340 --> 01:04:11,141
that, in spite of our sympathy
for his personal style,
603
01:04:11,203 --> 01:04:16,615
we could not accept
unlawful acts
604
01:04:16,676 --> 01:04:21,226
and that his status
as a state employee
was in question.
605
01:04:42,628 --> 01:04:44,679
NO REPLACEMENT FOR BEUYS
606
01:04:44,740 --> 01:04:50,251
The Minister for Science
has dismissed you without
prior notice for "trespassing."
607
01:04:50,308 --> 01:04:54,247
Do you think the Minister
will revoke your dismissal?
608
01:04:54,307 --> 01:04:58,213
I don't think so. Maybe.
I'll leave it open.
609
01:04:58,276 --> 01:05:00,262
He could at least
have talked to me,
610
01:05:00,516 --> 01:05:02,502
in my opinion.
611
01:05:02,564 --> 01:05:04,942
Why let something happen
612
01:05:04,996 --> 01:05:08,455
that resulted in huge effort
and expense?
613
01:05:08,515 --> 01:05:10,502
The police operation,
for example?
614
01:05:10,564 --> 01:05:14,220
Wouldn't it have been
more economical to talk to me?
615
01:05:14,275 --> 01:05:16,458
What are your plans now?
616
01:05:16,516 --> 01:05:19,309
You've been
officially dismissed.
What do you think about that?
617
01:06:29,220 --> 01:06:32,679
How do you feel now?
Like Don Quixote, who...?
618
01:06:32,739 --> 01:06:33,929
No, not at all.
619
01:06:33,988 --> 01:06:36,236
Or like...
620
01:06:36,292 --> 01:06:40,558
Professor,
what are the main points
of your dispute?
621
01:06:40,611 --> 01:06:45,543
The cultural scene has been destroyed to a large extent, again by Mr.
Rau.
622
01:06:47,235 --> 01:06:50,891
Due to his interference
in the Academy of Arts,
623
01:06:50,948 --> 01:06:54,734
its development,
the creation of new ideas,
624
01:06:54,788 --> 01:06:59,174
as well as the appearance
of foreign artists
here in Dusseldorf
625
01:06:59,236 --> 01:07:01,735
have been ruined.
That's a fact.
626
01:07:01,795 --> 01:07:03,912
Is it really so dramatic?
627
01:07:03,971 --> 01:07:07,496
The accumulation
of these events
628
01:07:07,555 --> 01:07:11,309
results in a kind of experience
that makes you want
to leave this city
629
01:07:11,364 --> 01:07:14,091
as quickly as possible.
630
01:07:14,148 --> 01:07:16,167
The question is...
631
01:07:17,507 --> 01:07:19,821
Shall we take a short break?
632
01:07:22,276 --> 01:07:27,754
What conclusions
have you drawn from it
for your future?
633
01:07:27,811 --> 01:07:31,336
I'm treating myself
solely through the character
of my work.
634
01:07:33,444 --> 01:07:36,357
I've proposed the theory...
635
01:07:36,420 --> 01:07:40,042
"I Nourish Myself
by Wasting Energy."
636
01:07:40,099 --> 01:07:44,006
Yes. Yes, that's my method.
637
01:08:03,491 --> 01:08:06,438
FOR ME THERE'S
NO SUCH THING AS WEEKENDS
638
01:08:36,675 --> 01:08:41,324
Joseph, do you think
you've chosen the right time
to come to America
639
01:08:41,379 --> 01:08:44,838
and talk about your ideas
on art and politics,
640
01:08:44,900 --> 01:08:50,476
after turning down
almost every invitation from
America in the last 10 years?
641
01:08:50,531 --> 01:08:55,464
Would you like
to smoke a cigar first?
642
01:08:55,716 --> 01:09:00,233
Beuys could embolden you
by example.
643
01:09:00,291 --> 01:09:04,045
He had a vision.
He wanted something.
644
01:09:04,100 --> 01:09:08,170
We're really into
step-by-step plans,
as you know.
645
01:09:08,228 --> 01:09:12,330
So let's begin casually
with step one. Casually...
646
01:09:12,388 --> 01:09:17,134
He was someone
who saw in every person
a potential partner
647
01:09:17,188 --> 01:09:20,047
for his ideas,
for his ideas.
648
01:09:20,099 --> 01:09:24,617
And he didn't care where someone
came from or what they'd done.
649
01:09:24,675 --> 01:09:28,996
He said of himself
that his attitude was,
650
01:09:29,060 --> 01:09:32,300
"Give people time
and they'll come around."
651
01:09:32,355 --> 01:09:35,748
Because I've now
reached the point
652
01:09:35,811 --> 01:09:41,060
where it's clear to me
that I won't put on the kind
of exhibition in America
653
01:09:41,124 --> 01:09:43,372
that's been the norm
in the past...
654
01:09:45,124 --> 01:09:48,135
and that there's
a lot of interest here now
655
01:09:48,195 --> 01:09:51,142
in these complex ideas
656
01:09:51,396 --> 01:09:54,506
with a political dimension.
657
01:09:54,564 --> 01:09:58,372
Uh, it's my pleasure
to give you Joseph Beuys.
658
01:09:58,435 --> 01:10:00,487
Uh, I've been asked also to say
659
01:10:00,547 --> 01:10:03,974
that Mr. Beuys
is willing to stay as long
as you're willing to stay.
660
01:10:04,035 --> 01:10:05,289
Mr. Beuys.
661
01:10:12,835 --> 01:10:15,629
To arrive at an understanding
of art,
662
01:10:15,684 --> 01:10:20,365
leads immediately to the really
practical points of life,
663
01:10:20,419 --> 01:10:24,140
to the people,
to the human being.
664
01:10:24,195 --> 01:10:27,338
It is an anthropological
dimension of the art.
665
01:10:27,395 --> 01:10:31,018
And now we can slowly begin
with such an area
666
01:10:31,075 --> 01:10:33,323
to overcome modern art.
667
01:10:33,380 --> 01:10:37,036
- Yes, that's my confession.
- Nobody has to believe.
668
01:10:38,467 --> 01:10:40,072
I learned
a huge amount from him,
669
01:10:40,131 --> 01:10:43,918
including how to cope
with being insulted and reviled.
670
01:10:43,971 --> 01:10:48,740
...of art that does not
transform society.
671
01:10:48,996 --> 01:10:52,837
How to keep trying and
trying again, starting afresh.
672
01:10:52,899 --> 01:10:56,904
And, of course,
he was attacked by many people
673
01:10:56,963 --> 01:11:01,514
who didn't like the idea
of an artist interfering
with social issues.
674
01:11:01,572 --> 01:11:03,787
I think now--
Oh, yes. Another question.
675
01:11:03,844 --> 01:11:08,710
But certainly
there are some things that
it's necessary to do in life
676
01:11:08,771 --> 01:11:10,637
that have nothing
to do with art.
677
01:11:11,811 --> 01:11:13,994
Yeah, perhaps
in your understanding.
678
01:11:15,171 --> 01:11:16,360
But if--
679
01:11:20,676 --> 01:11:24,844
But if you and I
are to communicate effectively,
680
01:11:24,899 --> 01:11:26,667
we must have
some common understanding
681
01:11:26,723 --> 01:11:29,735
of what these terms mean.
Yeah, sure.
682
01:11:29,795 --> 01:11:34,728
And if it's possible for you
to give such an open, textured
sense to the term "art,"
683
01:11:34,787 --> 01:11:38,246
then it's no longer possible
for me to understand
what you're saying.
684
01:11:38,308 --> 01:11:39,912
Yeah, sure, it's possible.
685
01:11:41,859 --> 01:11:43,365
Art is the only
revolutionary power,
686
01:11:43,427 --> 01:11:46,700
because it is based
on humankind's creativity
687
01:11:46,755 --> 01:11:49,221
and self-determination
and self-government.
688
01:11:51,043 --> 01:11:57,284
Through the idea of art,
democracy could be
one day reality.
689
01:11:58,723 --> 01:12:00,555
- Thank you, Joseph.
- Thank you.
690
01:12:07,363 --> 01:12:11,149
We are speaking
about the possibility
to create a new world.
691
01:12:11,203 --> 01:12:15,884
But the premise is
to create a new world,
is to cut away every tradition,
692
01:12:15,939 --> 01:12:19,497
traditional views of ideology.
693
01:12:20,739 --> 01:12:22,791
And we have to start
with another thing.
694
01:12:32,420 --> 01:12:38,596
So to give a declaration
of the whole development
from Plato to Marx, let's say,
695
01:12:38,659 --> 01:12:42,729
and to the necessity
to go further than Marx,
696
01:12:42,787 --> 01:12:46,792
not only the idea of art
is radically changed,
697
01:12:46,851 --> 01:12:48,718
in my point of view,
698
01:12:48,771 --> 01:12:51,849
also the idea of capital
and economy
699
01:12:51,907 --> 01:12:55,399
at the same time
is radically changed.
700
01:13:22,083 --> 01:13:25,870
- Uh, Mr. B.
- Yeah.
701
01:13:25,923 --> 01:13:29,645
The economy
that we're dealing with now
is an information based economy.
702
01:13:29,699 --> 01:13:34,184
Those who control
the technologies of the world,
control the world.
703
01:13:34,243 --> 01:13:40,332
How can we even begin to believe
that any basic social change
is going to take place,
704
01:13:40,387 --> 01:13:44,260
when these realities
are in place and
are growing stronger?
705
01:13:53,827 --> 01:13:56,838
Since the only problems
which people are facing,
706
01:13:56,900 --> 01:14:00,326
this misuse of economy,
the power of the money
707
01:14:00,388 --> 01:14:03,017
and the power of
the government, the states.
708
01:14:03,075 --> 01:14:05,258
So eliminate the state.
709
01:14:05,315 --> 01:14:07,847
That is the idea of art.
710
01:14:07,907 --> 01:14:11,781
Away with such states
and such political parties
711
01:14:11,843 --> 01:14:14,921
and such politicians.
712
01:14:14,979 --> 01:14:18,307
To come up with a new
economical system,
713
01:14:18,371 --> 01:14:22,310
another use of money,
a new credit system,
714
01:14:22,371 --> 01:14:25,481
which gets ready
with basic problems.
715
01:14:25,539 --> 01:14:29,326
Then the art would play
the most important role.
716
01:14:35,011 --> 01:14:36,516
Beuys speaking.
717
01:15:48,259 --> 01:15:51,948
So he went up into
René Block's art world space,
718
01:15:52,003 --> 01:15:54,600
completely blocked off from it,
719
01:15:54,659 --> 01:15:58,348
insulated in felt.
720
01:15:58,403 --> 01:16:03,336
And the only dialogue he had
was with this American animal.
721
01:16:11,107 --> 01:16:13,736
The additional element
was this symbol
722
01:16:13,795 --> 01:16:18,247
of the abstract,
crystalline thinking
723
01:16:18,307 --> 01:16:20,904
of how we organize
our economic power.
724
01:16:21,155 --> 01:16:22,825
The Wall Sheet Journal.
725
01:16:39,587 --> 01:16:44,716
And Beuys himself said
that the coyote controlled
the timing of everything he did.
726
01:17:26,115 --> 01:17:31,462
The coyote himself was a shaman
in the sense that every animal
gets to grips with material
727
01:17:31,523 --> 01:17:35,309
and knows how to manipulate
its surroundings.
728
01:17:35,363 --> 01:17:39,237
We're not the only ones
who have that capacity.
729
01:19:04,899 --> 01:19:06,765
The coyote was the scapegoat,
730
01:19:06,819 --> 01:19:10,441
you know,
the embodiment of mischief
and all the malice
731
01:19:10,499 --> 01:19:13,445
that the white settlers
732
01:19:13,506 --> 01:19:17,096
attributed
to the Native American.
733
01:19:18,467 --> 01:19:22,024
In New York, they would have
been thinking of that.
734
01:19:22,083 --> 01:19:27,081
And the fact that he rejected
all dialogue with any of them,
735
01:19:27,139 --> 01:19:30,467
the art world, the artists
and critics and everything,
736
01:19:30,530 --> 01:19:35,277
and would only talk
to a scapegoated symbol
737
01:19:35,330 --> 01:19:38,058
of the ancient culture
of the United States,
738
01:19:38,114 --> 01:19:41,420
or pre United States, America.
739
01:19:43,427 --> 01:19:45,805
That was controversial.
740
01:19:45,859 --> 01:19:50,475
It was a rejection
of the art world, of New York,
741
01:19:50,531 --> 01:19:54,470
of the States,
and of their whole culture.
742
01:19:54,530 --> 01:19:55,949
And it was meant to be.
743
01:20:57,923 --> 01:20:59,243
Beuys speaking...
744
01:21:02,146 --> 01:21:05,474
Joseph Beuys,
both venerated and reviled,
745
01:21:05,539 --> 01:21:07,492
is running for parliament.
746
01:21:09,570 --> 01:21:15,877
In 1971, he founded
an organization for direct
democracy through referenda,
747
01:21:15,938 --> 01:21:19,976
and he's totally serious
about his current
election campaign.
748
01:21:20,034 --> 01:21:23,875
Serious about,
among other things, bringing
laughter into parliament.
749
01:21:23,939 --> 01:21:26,568
Would you like
to become Chancellor?
Pardon?
750
01:21:28,995 --> 01:21:30,762
Pardon?
Would you like
to become Chancellor?
751
01:21:30,819 --> 01:21:32,838
Sure.
752
01:21:36,739 --> 01:21:38,572
Sure, why not?
753
01:21:40,259 --> 01:21:42,125
Yeah, that's the way it is...
754
01:22:03,203 --> 01:22:09,837
Tonight we're going to discuss
the chances and limits of
politicization through art.
755
01:22:09,890 --> 01:22:13,863
If I could determine what is,
then I could quickly
agree with you.
756
01:22:13,923 --> 01:22:16,902
I don't want to keep
determining what is,
757
01:22:16,962 --> 01:22:21,828
I want to get an idea
of what might be desirable
for people.
758
01:22:21,891 --> 01:22:25,001
You talk about innovation
as if no one had ever
thought of it before...
759
01:22:25,058 --> 01:22:26,925
You're just insinuating that...
760
01:22:26,978 --> 01:22:31,812
Then let me speak
for five minutes.
761
01:22:31,874 --> 01:22:33,293
Joseph Beuys...
762
01:22:33,346 --> 01:22:37,733
You won't commit yourself.
That's your unbridled
liberalism.
763
01:22:37,794 --> 01:22:40,522
That's no use
to political activists.
764
01:22:40,579 --> 01:22:43,939
My desire for freedom.
Fine, I'd call it
something else.
765
01:22:44,195 --> 01:22:47,054
But let me talk
about Beuys' political praxis.
766
01:22:47,107 --> 01:22:51,973
I believe the term "politics,"
as it's used currently,
767
01:22:52,034 --> 01:22:55,395
is what's preventing
genuine change.
768
01:22:55,459 --> 01:22:59,878
Joseph Beuys, you're Germany's
most controversial artist.
769
01:22:59,939 --> 01:23:01,859
But you're also a member
of the Green Party.
770
01:23:01,923 --> 01:23:03,909
Are you serious about that?
771
01:23:03,970 --> 01:23:08,870
Of course.
You have to achieve things
via a future-oriented movement.
772
01:23:16,323 --> 01:23:18,309
The conference is open!
773
01:23:19,426 --> 01:23:22,089
I would like to point out
774
01:23:22,146 --> 01:23:24,547
that the process
of forming opinions
775
01:23:24,611 --> 01:23:29,838
is incredibly laborious
for a young party
such as ourselves.
776
01:23:29,890 --> 01:23:33,218
Beuys really didn't need that.
777
01:23:33,283 --> 01:23:37,036
He got himself involved
with the formation of a party
778
01:23:37,091 --> 01:23:39,469
and with everything
that went along with that.
779
01:23:41,315 --> 01:23:44,970
You wouldn't believe
what torture that is.
780
01:23:45,027 --> 01:23:48,486
Especially in the case
of a party that isn't a party,
781
01:23:48,547 --> 01:23:50,467
where everything's
totally haywire.
782
01:23:50,531 --> 01:23:53,958
no one is being rejected!
783
01:23:54,019 --> 01:23:58,471
You had nature lovers colliding
with hard-core Marxists.
784
01:23:58,530 --> 01:24:01,291
Then there were diehard Nazis
785
01:24:01,347 --> 01:24:07,021
who had somehow
become acceptable because
of their holistic philosophy.
786
01:24:07,074 --> 01:24:11,047
And then there were
the left-wingers from Hamburg.
787
01:24:15,171 --> 01:24:17,898
Beuys dove right in.
788
01:24:17,955 --> 01:24:20,388
We'll have to keep
working with it, of course.
789
01:24:20,450 --> 01:24:22,665
It won't stop you
from continuing to work
with the Greens.
790
01:24:22,722 --> 01:24:24,676
No, it won't stop me.
791
01:24:27,170 --> 01:24:29,516
He really believed
in that movement,
792
01:24:29,571 --> 01:24:33,673
in the founding
of the Green Party,
and Beuys said:
793
01:24:33,731 --> 01:24:36,775
"We've witnessed
a historic day today."
794
01:24:36,834 --> 01:24:41,734
He was so certain that
it was the anti-party party.
795
01:24:45,859 --> 01:24:47,594
A Green Party program?
796
01:24:49,218 --> 01:24:50,473
A program?
797
01:24:50,530 --> 01:24:52,233
Green Party program?
Thanks.
798
01:24:52,290 --> 01:24:54,374
How about you?
799
01:24:54,435 --> 01:24:56,202
Maybe he'll give us
his autograph.
800
01:24:57,954 --> 01:24:59,821
I think more of you
as an artist.
801
01:24:59,874 --> 01:25:02,918
Hold on!
What do I get in return?
802
01:25:02,979 --> 01:25:06,568
Will you vote
for the Green Party
if I draw a picture for you?
803
01:25:08,930 --> 01:25:13,961
Casual elegance
reigned at Düsseldorf gallery
Denise René last night.
804
01:25:14,018 --> 01:25:17,226
Andy Warhol,
pale, shy,
805
01:25:17,283 --> 01:25:21,866
constantly searching
for Joseph Beuys,
who was nowhere to be seen.
806
01:25:21,923 --> 01:25:25,731
Joseph Beuys,
who we're still waiting for,
has become such a politician
807
01:25:25,794 --> 01:25:30,628
that he knows how
to make a dramatic entrance.
808
01:25:30,690 --> 01:25:35,339
I remember driving back
from Brussels with him one time.
809
01:25:35,394 --> 01:25:39,367
And I said...
Because we were all very tired,
810
01:25:39,426 --> 01:25:43,813
we'd started out from Brussels
at five or six in the morning,
811
01:25:43,874 --> 01:25:46,918
and during the journey back
he said,
812
01:25:46,978 --> 01:25:49,925
"I've got to get back,
I can't stop for long."
813
01:25:49,986 --> 01:25:53,510
So we took a lovely photo
of him at a roadhouse,
814
01:25:53,570 --> 01:25:58,251
on which he wrote,
"The Man at the Main Lever."
815
01:25:58,307 --> 01:26:01,929
And I think
the man at the main lever.
816
01:26:07,907 --> 01:26:08,998
Beuys speaking.
817
01:26:13,602 --> 01:26:15,501
Good morning, Mr. Beuys
in Düsseldorf.
818
01:26:15,554 --> 01:26:16,875
Morning.
819
01:26:26,338 --> 01:26:27,560
Beuys speaking.
820
01:26:29,027 --> 01:26:30,412
Who called?
821
01:26:33,698 --> 01:26:36,677
And during the journey he said,
822
01:26:36,738 --> 01:26:38,887
"I've got so many appointments,
823
01:26:38,946 --> 01:26:42,700
from now on I'll start
at four in the morning..."
824
01:26:42,754 --> 01:26:47,206
Four in the morning.
"...or at five, or at six."
825
01:26:47,267 --> 01:26:50,442
I thought,
"How long can anyone
keep that up?"
826
01:26:53,410 --> 01:26:55,789
Beuys speaking.
827
01:26:55,842 --> 01:26:58,156
I don't have time at the moment.
828
01:26:58,210 --> 01:27:02,979
It's wearing me out,
but that's necessary.
829
01:27:03,042 --> 01:27:05,475
Why is it necessary?
830
01:27:05,538 --> 01:27:07,687
Sorry?
Why is it necessary?
831
01:27:07,746 --> 01:27:10,605
Why've you got to
wear yourself out?
832
01:27:10,659 --> 01:27:12,972
Everyone has to
wear them selves out.
833
01:27:13,026 --> 01:27:17,827
It'd be bad
if they were good and died
without wearing themselves out.
834
01:27:17,891 --> 01:27:21,099
Okay.
Everything has to be
used up anyway.
835
01:27:22,595 --> 01:27:25,159
It doesn't matter
what profession you're in,
836
01:27:25,219 --> 01:27:28,645
you have to wear yourself out.
837
01:27:28,707 --> 01:27:33,573
You have to burn
yourself down to ashes,
otherwise there's no point.
838
01:27:33,634 --> 01:27:36,580
If you're still good,
that's bad.
839
01:27:36,642 --> 01:27:39,468
Then it's frustrating,
isn't it?
840
01:27:39,522 --> 01:27:44,355
"Everything's still so good!"
And then you kick the bucket,
that's bad.
841
01:27:44,419 --> 01:27:47,245
From this perspective,
not from another.
842
01:28:03,619 --> 01:28:07,307
What are some things
you would like to accomplish
during your visit here?
843
01:28:20,322 --> 01:28:24,392
But come back to it,
because you're very articulate.
844
01:28:24,450 --> 01:28:26,436
You've gotta do it on your own.
845
01:28:26,498 --> 01:28:28,550
I think I have to leave now.
846
01:28:31,490 --> 01:28:34,600
No, if you have a question,
a last question, it's okay.
847
01:29:30,498 --> 01:29:34,306
I remember it being
very summery...
848
01:29:36,770 --> 01:29:42,149
and those river meadows and
the smell of the Rosa rugosa.
849
01:29:42,210 --> 01:29:44,294
I can never smell that
without thinking of that.
850
01:29:44,354 --> 01:29:47,049
Because there was a big chance
that he would die.
851
01:29:50,914 --> 01:29:54,788
So I went over
and he was in the hospital...
852
01:29:56,930 --> 01:29:58,763
on the Rhine.
853
01:30:08,354 --> 01:30:10,700
I think it was more
854
01:30:10,754 --> 01:30:15,522
the intensity with which
he wanted to follow his work.
855
01:30:17,667 --> 01:30:22,151
And he knew
that you can't, uh--
856
01:30:22,210 --> 01:30:26,281
If you fight and streben
against something like that,
you do more harm.
857
01:30:26,338 --> 01:30:27,495
So he was being calm.
858
01:30:36,867 --> 01:30:41,482
He actually invited
that photograph of him
with no hat on.
859
01:30:43,490 --> 01:30:48,323
That was very brave of him
to ask for a portrait then.
860
01:31:09,890 --> 01:31:13,218
In which area are you laziest?
Sorry?
861
01:31:13,282 --> 01:31:15,431
In which area are you laziest?
862
01:31:16,290 --> 01:31:17,479
Laziest?
863
01:31:17,538 --> 01:31:20,365
Yes, laziest.
864
01:31:22,914 --> 01:31:27,944
Maybe I don't understand
your question.
I just said...
865
01:31:28,002 --> 01:31:32,715
A time always comes
when you're tempted
to retire from active life.
866
01:31:35,618 --> 01:31:39,175
When you say,
"Maybe it would be better
if I went to Australia."
867
01:31:39,234 --> 01:31:40,904
That's not a joke.
868
01:31:41,954 --> 01:31:42,826
Is it?
869
01:31:49,826 --> 01:31:51,943
You mustn't retire.
870
01:31:52,002 --> 01:31:56,356
I'm not going to.
I'm not going to retire.
871
01:31:56,418 --> 01:32:00,226
I'm not going to retire.
But if at some time I...
872
01:32:00,290 --> 01:32:03,879
It really would be
a historical disaster.
873
01:32:03,938 --> 01:32:06,764
That's why I'm not
going to retire.
874
01:32:08,258 --> 01:32:10,342
I'm not going
to retire at all.
875
01:32:13,058 --> 01:32:16,648
But you're bound
to say at some point,
"Kiss my ass!
876
01:32:18,274 --> 01:32:21,548
I'm going to wander dreamily
around the world."
877
01:32:23,202 --> 01:32:25,450
What would the alternative be?
878
01:32:27,906 --> 01:32:32,674
The alternative would be
to carry on in a form where,
to a certain extent,
879
01:32:32,738 --> 01:32:35,913
you're well-known.
880
01:32:35,970 --> 01:32:38,599
To stubbornly carry on
doing the same thing.
881
01:34:13,794 --> 01:34:19,588
I can see Beuys's loneliness
and his incredible sensitivity,
882
01:34:19,650 --> 01:34:22,345
his porousness, his...
883
01:34:23,266 --> 01:34:24,358
That...
884
01:34:26,082 --> 01:34:29,955
That he was always inside
his wound, inside his hurt.
885
01:34:31,778 --> 01:34:36,099
And that makes you admire
this incredible strength
even more,
886
01:34:36,161 --> 01:34:40,362
which he used as an antidote,
his courage as well.
887
01:34:40,418 --> 01:34:43,211
Mr. Beuys, I don't want
to mention your hat...
888
01:34:43,266 --> 01:34:45,350
Mr. Beuys, you've now...
889
01:34:45,409 --> 01:34:46,763
Mr. Beuys, what is art?
890
01:34:47,714 --> 01:34:49,100
Beuys!
891
01:34:59,010 --> 01:35:01,541
Do you feel comfortable
in your role
892
01:35:01,602 --> 01:35:06,851
as an artist who's successful
in the institutional art world?
893
01:35:06,914 --> 01:35:09,478
I mean, how do you feel
about that? Or--
894
01:35:09,538 --> 01:35:13,575
See, art showed already
the impossibility to solve
895
01:35:13,634 --> 01:35:18,948
such very important,
basic problems of humankind.
896
01:35:19,009 --> 01:35:23,145
But that is not
the end of the art.
Now the art begins.
897
01:35:26,050 --> 01:35:28,330
This is my objection.
898
01:35:28,386 --> 01:35:30,535
I think that
the sensational character
899
01:35:30,594 --> 01:35:34,794
lends to your remarks a force
that's strictly locutionary.
900
01:35:34,850 --> 01:35:36,356
It's kind of empty rhetoric.
901
01:35:36,418 --> 01:35:37,956
Yeah.
902
01:35:41,794 --> 01:35:46,028
But as much I could do it,
I gave already the proofs.
903
01:35:46,082 --> 01:35:49,956
There is not only sensation,
904
01:35:50,018 --> 01:35:52,812
but it has to be sensation.
905
01:35:52,865 --> 01:35:56,739
Otherwise, it would be
of no interest.
906
01:36:02,498 --> 01:36:05,804
It has to be sensationally...
907
01:36:05,858 --> 01:36:09,349
ONLY 2,272 DAYS
UNTIL THE END OF CAPITALISM
908
01:36:09,410 --> 01:36:11,309
- Yes.
- Yes.
909
01:36:11,554 --> 01:36:16,487
How to topple capitalism,
that's how I'd have to put it.
910
01:36:16,546 --> 01:36:17,484
Yes.
911
01:36:25,314 --> 01:36:30,443
NEXT TIME WE'LL NAME NAMES
AND IDEAS
912
01:36:30,498 --> 01:36:33,826
Mr. Beuys, are you a radical?
Yes, I am.
913
01:36:33,889 --> 01:36:36,617
A famous radical.
Is that possible?
914
01:36:36,673 --> 01:36:41,507
It would be good
if radicals became famous
and people listened to them.
915
01:36:43,874 --> 01:36:47,595
In '83, the Greens
were going full steam
916
01:36:47,650 --> 01:36:50,476
and for the first time
they had a real chance
917
01:36:50,530 --> 01:36:53,061
of getting into parliament.
918
01:36:53,122 --> 01:36:57,705
And no one understood
why he kept going on
about the term "capital."
919
01:36:57,762 --> 01:37:00,261
It was much too lofty,
even for the Greens.
920
01:37:00,514 --> 01:37:03,973
And now I want to get
to the heart of the matter.
921
01:37:04,034 --> 01:37:06,696
Because whenever
a democratic process
922
01:37:06,754 --> 01:37:11,522
dares touch the actual nerve
of societal change,
923
01:37:11,585 --> 01:37:16,965
the power relations
around money undermine
every attempt at democracy.
924
01:37:17,026 --> 01:37:21,031
The power of money
must be broken.
925
01:37:21,089 --> 01:37:24,898
Today money is
a tradable commodity
you can speculate with it.
926
01:37:26,018 --> 01:37:27,971
So in the economic sphere,
927
01:37:28,034 --> 01:37:31,558
money is an entity
that shouldn't be a commodity
928
01:37:31,618 --> 01:37:33,418
but because it is a commodity
929
01:37:33,474 --> 01:37:37,576
this character
must be brought into line
with the whole of democracy.
930
01:37:45,058 --> 01:37:49,128
We went to the conference
and didn't think anything of it.
931
01:37:49,185 --> 01:37:50,823
We thought...
932
01:37:50,882 --> 01:37:54,275
Because Beuys
had been the top candidate
three years before.
933
01:37:54,337 --> 01:37:59,651
And you sensed immediately
that the atmosphere
was really peculiar.
934
01:37:59,714 --> 01:38:02,573
Who's still interested in you?
935
01:38:02,625 --> 01:38:05,190
Who do you still provoke...?
Quiet, please!
936
01:38:07,458 --> 01:38:09,804
Could you be quieter, please?
937
01:38:09,858 --> 01:38:14,757
And some of the delegates
really went after him.
938
01:38:14,818 --> 01:38:17,033
"Beuys, go off
and play with your fat!"
939
01:38:18,402 --> 01:38:19,460
Or...
940
01:38:22,338 --> 01:38:24,258
"Beuys,
you're costing us votes."
941
01:38:27,425 --> 01:38:30,950
Please be quiet
in the hall, or we can't hear
anything up here.
942
01:38:31,009 --> 01:38:35,909
We quickly
figured out that the candidates
had already been selected.
943
01:38:39,553 --> 01:38:42,881
It was clear
he wasn't one of them.
944
01:38:47,426 --> 01:38:50,372
He was being dropped
by his own people.
945
01:39:17,186 --> 01:39:21,191
You don't fail, I mean,
the endeavor, the attempt,
946
01:39:21,249 --> 01:39:23,977
trying to do something
947
01:39:24,034 --> 01:39:28,355
is a success in itself.
948
01:39:29,794 --> 01:39:33,121
There isn't an end
to all this, you know.
949
01:39:33,186 --> 01:39:37,191
There isn't
a state of perfection...
950
01:39:37,249 --> 01:39:40,457
or when it's all finished.
951
01:42:36,033 --> 01:42:38,761
There's no point in me
standing up in front of someone,
952
01:42:38,817 --> 01:42:41,960
or in front of lots of people...
953
01:42:44,673 --> 01:42:47,173
without there being a question.
954
01:42:47,233 --> 01:42:52,328
What's the point of just
foisting an issue on people?
955
01:42:52,385 --> 01:42:56,804
Because they might not
even be interested in it.
956
01:42:56,866 --> 01:43:00,106
I have to speak
in a way that I know
957
01:43:00,161 --> 01:43:02,758
that there's something
inside of the people,
958
01:43:02,817 --> 01:43:04,323
that there's a question
959
01:43:04,385 --> 01:43:08,586
that I can try to answer,
that I can try
960
01:43:08,642 --> 01:43:10,474
to solve together with them.
961
01:43:10,529 --> 01:43:12,428
It's actually a joint task.
79111
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