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It all felt deeply unethical.
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I went in with pure intentions
to make a difference.
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It really was every day that I'd cry,
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and then I was just suddenly like,
I can't do another day of this.
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I just want to share my story,
and I want people to know
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what I've learned about disease.
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We have seen multiple episodes
over the past several years
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where viruses have emerged
that have caused cause for concern.
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And thankfully to date,
time and time again,
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measures taken by governments,
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measures that have
been taken by the WHO,
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have managed
to combat those outbreaks.
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I think the whole
of the medical community
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is mindful and slightly fearful
that eventually
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there might come a time where
such a virus can't be contained.
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There are two sets of laws that
we have that control human behavior.
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One is the laws that we make.
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And in those laws they say sometimes,
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"It's okay to do this.
It's okay to do that."
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Well, it may be OK,
and it may be lawful,
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but nature has its own set of laws.
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And when you or we as people
violate those laws,
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then nature responds
with a consequence all of its own.
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And it can be a consequence
that we as humans can't tolerate.
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We're creating these scenarios in
which viruses can mutate in that way.
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It really feels like
there's so many alarms going off
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and it just isn't being spelled out.
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I'm Alice Brough,
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and I used to be a livestock vet,
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so I worked for about four years
in the British pig industry,
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and I left that about a year ago.
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As soon as I understood
there was a job
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that was involving helping animals,
that was the career for me,
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and I didn't ever
consider anything else.
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It was like as soon as I could
speak, I wanted to be a vet.
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As soon as I turned 15,
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I started working
on farms every holiday
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and the veterinary degree's
five years long,
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so it's a considerable amount
of time put towards it really.
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So the year before I left,
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I was actually a finalist
for Young Pig Vet of the Year.
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I really put everything into it,
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I tried incredibly hard
to achieve what really was my aim,
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improving animals' lives.
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And I, yeah...
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It was a tough job,
and I put everything into it.
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So why have you since left that job?
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That's a tough question.
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I think the more I went on,
the more I struggled
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with a sort of concern
that I was facilitating something
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which would be
potentially very dangerous
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to human health
further down the line.
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I felt I've had
to step back from that role
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to feel like I'm not contributing
to some of the biggest threats
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to humanity in the form of pandemics
and antimicrobial resistance.
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There are many different diseases
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that have led to pandemics
over the history of time.
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And there is typically
some sort of link
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between human health
and animal health
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within those types of pandemics.
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About half of infectious diseases
people can get
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can be spread from an animal
or be zoonotic.
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And for emerging
infectious diseases particularly,
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scientists estimate
that three out of every four
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emerging infectious diseases
come from an animal source.
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Well, the truth is, when you look at
the origins specifically of COVID-19,
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we think it's come from some
of these wet markets in China.
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And for many of us in the West,
we look and say,
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"OK, perhaps they should close down."
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And to a certain extent that is true.
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But we should also look
in our own backyard
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and just look at how we are
treating animals here.
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It's not just over there.
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If we are cooping up our livestock
in unsanitary conditions,
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giving them antibiotics all the time,
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we really don't have much of a case
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to point the finger at anybody else.
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The more I looked,
and research I looked at,
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it was like going down
the rabbit hole in a sense.
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Animal agriculture is a big business.
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It is causing all sorts
of major issues,
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but nobody's joining the dots.
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I worked in the Office
of Counterterrorism
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and Emerging Threats of the FDA.
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And in that office we were preparing
for things like pandemics,
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like COVID-19 that we're facing now.
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I worked with the CDC,
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I worked with the NIH,
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I worked with the military,
I worked with Homeland Security.
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Throughout that entire time,
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not once did we ever talk about
how these emerging diseases
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come about in the first place.
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This is the time.
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If there is any time,
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this is the time to really look into
how these infections come about.
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So you think about it,
we're 8 billion humans
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on this planet right now.
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But for every human,
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there are about 10 land animals
raised and killed for food.
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So we think there are
too many humans?
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Think about how many animals.
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So we're talking about
80 billion land animals
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being raised and killed
for food at one time.
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You know, with coronavirus,
we are being told
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to socially distance,
and rightfully so.
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But we're doing the opposite
with these animals in these farms.
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We're crowding them into
as tight of a space as we can,
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and that goes against everything
that we know about how to contain
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and prevent the emergence
of infectious diseases.
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Their immune systems are decreased
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because of the stress that they face,
and then they are so densely packed.
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So it's so easy for one animal
to catch an infection
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and then pass it on
to another animal.
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And then the virus
can spread like wildfire.
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So far they've been able to verify
the deadly strain of flu virus
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is passed on from chickens to people.
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In 1997 with the emergence of H5N1,
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it was a highly pathogenic
influenza virus
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that emerged
from chicken farms in China.
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Now that virus had
a lethality rate of about 60%.
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Think about it, a virus that killed
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60 out of 100 people
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who contracted the virus.
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You can imagine
how deadly that virus is.
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I mean, that is a scary, scary virus.
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H5N1 came out
from animal agriculture.
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And it is still out there
and it is still circulating
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and it is still mutating.
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We are not done with H5N1.
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It's a ticking time bomb,
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what's happening
in these factory farms
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and the influenza strains
that are coming out.
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It's no coincidence that
when we think of past pandemics,
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we think of swine flu and avian flu.
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And pigs and chickens
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are the most intensively
farmed animals on the planet.
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Intensive farming acts as a crucible
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for the development
of pathogenic organisms.
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It's our insatiable need
for cheap food
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and for animal protein.
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If we didn't have those,
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we wouldn't have a lot of the drivers
for zoonotic emergence.
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So I've been driving
everyday farm to farm
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and seeing generally similar
sorts of problems across the board,
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whether that be disease
or welfare issues.
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And these conditions are
not exceptional, not one-offs.
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This is how our meat, dairy
and eggs are produced every day.
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We do a lot
of unnatural things to animals.
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You know, we routinely
mutilate young animals.
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We cuts off teeth, tails,
testicles and beaks, horns,
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creating a direct route for bacteria.
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And it's also greatly
stressful and painful obviously.
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We know dairy calves
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are removed
from their mothers straightaway.
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Chicks don't get maternal time,
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and piglets are weaned about
three to four weeks old.
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When you move them
into an environment
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that's frightening,
away from their mum,
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and on a completely different feed,
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it's very common to see things
like post-weaning salmonella
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or E. coli diarrhea or meningitis.
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When there's been
an outbreak of disease
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that requires my input,
I'll go and take some samples.
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And I might
swab some tonsils or nostrils,
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or take some blood
from their jugular vein.
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And the whole time,
I'm kind of leaning down
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in front of the nose
and mouth of a pig
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which might have died
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from something like swine flu,
which could potentially pass to me
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or some unknown disease
which we haven't discovered yet.
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The level of ammonia
coming from tons of waste
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from these animals
and the dust that builds up,
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everything those pigs
are breathing out,
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you're just breathing in, so you
come out and your eyes are red
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and streaming
and you're choking in it.
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But those pigs are in it 24/7.
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That's the reason
we see so much respiratory disease
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and you see lungs coming through.
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The abattoirs that have got pneumonia
and various bacterial diseases,
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like the concoctions
of respiratory pathogens,
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because of those enclosed spaces
are phenomenal.
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It was quite soul-destroying really,
because most of the time what I felt
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was probably the best option
for the animals I saw
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suffering or sick or injured
was to shoot them.
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And I was doing that most days.
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I carried a bolt gun
in my car and a screwdriver
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to euthanize animals daily.
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It just wasn't, it wasn't really
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what I signed up for
as a vet, let's be honest.
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To shoot an animal,
you have to look in their eyes.
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That was a daily occurrence,
I'd go home
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with these eyes of animals
that were utterly miserable.
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I'd have horrible nightmares
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all the time about killing animals
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and spent quite a lot of time
in slaughterhouses.
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And I'd just get
this recurring loop of animals
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getting killed in my dreams.
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The way that I dealt
with it at the time was,
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"If I'm not doing it,
then somebody else will
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who probably doesn't care."
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These are studies that show
drops in lung function,
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around factory farms
and things like that.
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So there are many,
many, many studies,
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that very clearly show disease.
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If you look at every step
along the pathway,
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the use of animals for food
causes disease in humans,
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starting with the farms.
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The people who work there
and who live there,
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we see increased rates
of respiratory ailments,
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GI ailments from water contamination,
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increased rates of skin
and wound infections.
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Then to the slaughterhouses.
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As they are slaughtering the animals,
they are often opening the belly.
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When they open the belly,
they often have to do it
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so quickly that they
tear into the intestines.
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So now you have spillage
of intestinal contents, i.e. feces,
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splashing on the person,
on the flesh itself.
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Then you move
to the processing of it.
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So you now have products
that are contaminated with bacteria.
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There are plenty of studies
to show this.
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Now you shift over to the consumer,
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because it has moved to the consumer.
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There was a study done
by the University of Minnesota
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in which they went
to 10 large retailers
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and collected samples of the meat,
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the pork, and the beef products
sold in all those grocery stores.
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And they sampled them,
and they found that
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there was E. coli in 60 to 70%
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of the beef and the pork products
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and 92% of the chicken products.
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These are just some
of the infectious disease risks
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coming from these factory farms.
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Another bleak day
of record COVID figures.
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And at Croydon University Hospital
it is status red.
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Ambulances asked
to take patients elsewhere
236
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,040
if at all possible across London.
237
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,040
COVID-19
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has pretty much brought
the world to its knees.
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00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,560
Over a million people have now died.
240
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,280
That's a huge number
of people to have lost their lives.
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00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,960
It's a huge number of people to be
out of work and unable to socialize.
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00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,640
But the thing to remember
is that COVID-19,
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it spread very quickly,
and infected a lot of people,
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but potential pathogens
for pandemics in the future
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have much,
much higher mortality rates.
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00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,720
The CDC have tipped the next pandemic
as an avian influenza,
247
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,120
which has a mortality rate of 40%.
248
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,040
It's a horrifying thought,
but it's a very real possibility
249
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,280
and the more that we're
250
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:19,640
creating these scenarios
in which viruses
251
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,160
can mutate in that way,
there is a very real risk
252
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,000
of something much worse
than COVID-19 happening.
253
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,240
We only need to look
at past pandemics to know this.
254
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,200
Well, the last
global pandemic that we had
255
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,800
was the swine flu pandemic of 2009.
256
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,280
Scientists are fairly certain that
it originated from a factory farm.
257
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:49,560
Now global estimates place
about 500,000 people
258
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,160
as casualties of that last pandemic.
259
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,080
So incredibly serious stuff
originating right down the road
260
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,520
from a massive pig facility.
261
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,920
And it makes sense that
that pig farm was ground zero
262
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:05,760
for the 2009 pandemic.
263
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,480
Pigs and humans
share a lot of genetic material,
264
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,000
so pigs are this perfect host,
265
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,800
and when that happens,
influenza mutates
266
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,760
and it can become highly pathogenic
267
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,920
and wreak absolute havoc
in the human population.
268
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,960
As far as the 1918 pandemic,
we know why that happened.
269
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,960
It was a virulent disease
that occurred
270
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,080
when troops were moved
all over the world.
271
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,320
So you had massive movement
of people in confined spaces.
272
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,080
Just because the 1918 flu
did not involve factory farms,
273
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,120
it does not mean that it didn't
involve other animals.
274
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,920
In fact, they recently
sequenced the genome
275
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,640
by taking samples from lung tissue
276
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,640
of people who had actually died
of the Spanish flu,
277
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,680
and they found
genetic material for avian viruses,
278
00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:00,640
swine viruses, so very clearly
there is still some relationship
279
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,120
between the 1918 flu and animal use.
280
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,280
We very clearly know
that the more recent epidemics,
281
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,560
the 1957 epidemic,
the 1968 epidemic, 2009 swine flu,
282
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,880
these were all
related to our use of animals.
283
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,280
We're in the middle of a pandemic.
284
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,240
It's like there's no
bigger wake-up call.
285
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,480
I don't know what more we need
286
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,880
to start taking action on this.
287
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,760
The only thing that will stop us
from picking up zoonotic disease
288
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,000
is stopping messing with animals.
289
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,400
But obviously we don't know for sure
where COVID came from.
290
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,480
People are very focused
on the wildlife trade
291
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,640
and even these lab leak theories.
292
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,760
But in particular,
people are looking at wet markets.
293
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,280
So because we don't have
anything like that over here,
294
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,160
to what extent can we wash
our hands of these issues?
295
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,200
I went to document a wet market.
296
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,720
In these wet markets,
297
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,320
there were several stalls
that have live frogs,
298
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,600
bullfrogs that are kept in cages
and slaughtered on the spot,
299
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,720
that have turtles kept in buckets,
300
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,720
and they stay there in dirty water,
in their own feces.
301
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,360
They are not fed.
302
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,800
They are kept in stressful,
unclean conditions.
303
00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:26,440
There are no hygiene
precautions whatsoever.
304
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,680
And this is really an environment
that is really ripe for having
305
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,520
all kinds of pathogen develop
and transmit again very easily,
306
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,920
from one bucket to another bucket.
307
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,840
We cannot talk about
physical distancing
308
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,360
and apply really strict
measures to prevent people
309
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,840
from visiting their loved ones,
310
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,600
while allowing these
wet markets to still
311
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:53,920
continue business as usual.
312
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:55,720
This is not okay.
313
00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,800
Coronavirus, right?
314
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,640
Kung Flu. Kung Flu.
315
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,120
Kung Flu.
316
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,480
Asians around the world
have reported discrimination
317
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,240
linked to coronavirus.
318
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,720
Those we've spoken to
fear the numbers
319
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,320
being verbally abused and assaulted
320
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,160
will rise even more sharply
in the weeks ahead.
321
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,560
This year, even from the end
of January I would say,
322
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,680
before COVID-19 had hit the UK,
323
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,760
I was sitting on the train to work
and someone sat down, looked at me
324
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,360
and got back up, covering their face
with the collar of their coat.
325
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,760
I looked, they're not
doing it to anyone else.
326
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,680
It's obvious what's going on here.
327
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,840
The new strain of coronavirus...
328
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,760
All the media reports
only showed East Asian people
329
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:51,000
We noticed like a 60%
decrease in overall sales,
330
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,400
and then footfall was so far down.
331
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,560
You'd see people walk past
and point and laugh.
332
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,120
I could notice people
saying things like,
333
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,640
"Don't bother supporting them.
Chinese people are dogs.
334
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,680
They eat dogs, they eat bats.
335
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,080
They're so dirty."
336
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,840
I've never known a level of racism
337
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,360
as explicitly and as common
as during this time.
338
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,720
I definitely feel that the fingers
339
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,520
pointed to people
just generally not in the West.
340
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,320
Inevitably,
when something bad happens,
341
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,120
you can look to blame someone else.
342
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,040
And in doing so, what you can
end up doing is alienating
343
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,000
parts of your own society.
344
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,560
I think, pointing the finger,
345
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,240
we're kind of missing the crux of it,
346
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,840
which is that our own
patterns of consumption,
347
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,160
whether that's food,
fashion, entertainment,
348
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,600
are driving us down a road that
won't be easy to come back from.
349
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,600
It's really interesting
looking at the conditions
350
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,800
of wet markets in China,
animals stacked on top of each other,
351
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:03,640
mired in their own feces and urine,
highly stressed,
352
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,880
close human and animal contact,
353
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,200
and that's where we
suspect COVID-19 came from.
354
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,120
But if you take those
similar characteristics
355
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,880
and look at factory farms
in the West,
356
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,440
in the UK, in America, all over
Europe, extremely similar situations
357
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,360
of incredibly stressed animals
358
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,080
who are denied
all that comes naturally to them.
359
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,720
And it's when human beings
treat animals badly
360
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:34,360
we see disease mutating quite quickly
and then jumping the species barrier.
361
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,400
So the comparisons between
wet markets and factory farms
362
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,160
I think are incredibly fair,
and as a Western society,
363
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,160
we absolutely must look at what's
happening in our backyard first.
364
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,440
Even if we just look
at the wildlife trade
365
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,840
and ignore factory farming,
366
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,080
that's not something we can
completely wash our hands of.
367
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,240
Yeah, it's easy to say
that the problem started over there.
368
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:04,680
It's not our fault.
369
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,240
It's much harder to turn
the mirror onto ourselves
370
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,120
and look at how we are increasing
371
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,440
our risks for these
infectious diseases.
372
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,840
Every country is involved
in this wildlife trade,
373
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,160
that leads to things
like the wet market,
374
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,560
leads to animals
being shipped around the globe,
375
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,360
captured from the wild,
used in circuses,
376
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,920
used to stock zoos,
used for laboratory experiments,
377
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,480
used as medicinal objects,
used for their fur
378
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,600
and their skin and their meat.
379
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,320
And the United States
is one of the biggest importers
380
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,360
and biggest exporters of wildlife.
381
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,080
Europe is a big importer
and exporter of wildlife too.
382
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,640
So we are a huge culprit.
383
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,160
We expose ourselves to more animals,
ship them around the globe.
384
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,320
These animals are treated
incredibly horribly,
385
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,680
they're distressed
and their immunity is down
386
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,360
so they can very easily
catch infectious diseases.
387
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,920
And so the wildlife trade
brings together
388
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,760
a lot of sick species,
species which normally
389
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,640
would not interact with each other.
390
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,480
Are we hypocrites?
391
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:05,640
I sort of think we are,
392
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,760
because we ignore
the parts of wildlife trade
393
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,240
that we want to ignore
because they serve our purpose,
394
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,680
and we cry out against
the parts of wildlife trade
395
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,200
that we've decided are unacceptable.
396
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,000
The wildlife trade is pervasive,
I mean, it's kind of everywhere,
397
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,880
and it's not just what we read about
398
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,400
in the headlines of the papers,
ivory trade, rhino horn trade,
399
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,400
tigers being traded,
pangolins being traded.
400
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,800
It's things that we sort of don't
401
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,560
even think about,
and we are, in the West,
402
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,960
in the US, in Canada,
403
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,440
in Europe, in the UK, consumers
of many of those products
404
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,240
that are internationally traded.
405
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,080
Forests contain value,
406
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,400
huge value in timber species,
and so those arterial roads
407
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,360
that forge their way into the forests
408
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,720
mean that we have gone into the wild
409
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,080
in a way that is
massively destructive
410
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,520
and carries with it enormous risk.
411
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,080
And back down that road
412
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:15,560
come the logs, but come
the wildlife, comes the disease.
413
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,880
So it's now like a beating heart.
414
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,040
We are pumping blood into the forest,
415
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,360
and we are seeing
the blood sucked out of it.
416
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:25,920
And here we are.
417
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,880
HIV and Ebola were carried
by non-human primates, chimpanzees,
418
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,000
but because of the bushmeat trade,
419
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,960
and because of the logging industry,
420
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,160
that destroyed a lot of the natural
habitat of these animals,
421
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,280
it brought humans really
much closer to these animals.
422
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:50,960
And we suspect that it is that
combination, the logging industry
423
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:55,560
and the bushmeat trade that caused
the first HIV infection in a human.
424
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,800
And we suspect
that's how we got Ebola.
425
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,360
When we destroy
the natural habitats of animals,
426
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,520
we are increasing the opportunities
for humans
427
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,840
to come into contact with species
428
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,720
that may carry infectious diseases
429
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,080
that we may not have
encountered before.
430
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,240
The wildlife trade is destructive.
431
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:18,040
It's destructive
to ecological habitats.
432
00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,160
It's destructive to many species.
433
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,760
And it's destructive for us
because it increases
434
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,480
our risk of infectious diseases.
435
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,680
We don't need it. That needs to end.
436
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,880
I think the problem is,
one of the central problems
437
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,640
is that we are just consumers,
consumers on a massive scale.
438
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,040
The sheer number of people
and the fact they need to eat,
439
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,040
somewhere to sleep, and things
in their house if they have a house.
440
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,800
And all of those things drive
441
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,240
the engine of consumption
around the world.
442
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:52,960
And what we don't realize is
443
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,680
that that will be
the cause of our own destruction.
444
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,040
Because we're not
the planet's stewards,
445
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,560
we're the exploiters
of the planet right now.
446
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,680
History has taught us,
and what we see now
447
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,800
is teaching us that anywhere
and any way that we treat animals
448
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,800
badly or unnaturally,
it leads to problems.
449
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:15,680
Not only for the animals,
but we'll say for us.
450
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,840
So tell me what that letter is.
451
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,400
So I am currently under investigation
452
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,960
by the Royal College
of Veterinary Surgeons,
453
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:38,800
which means that I'm at risk
454
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,240
of having my license
to practice revoked.
455
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,400
And why are you under investigation?
456
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:52,080
I publicly spoke about my experience
within the pig industry.
457
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,520
So that's what you've done, you've
just spoken about your experiences?
458
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,240
Yes, pretty much.
459
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,200
What their problem is with that
460
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,640
is that my comments
could undermine the integrity
461
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,880
of the veterinary profession
and damage the reputation.
462
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,760
And how does it feel
receiving that letter?
463
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,600
I suppose quite shocked
and quite scared because I don't,
464
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,680
I don't feel I did
anything wrong as a vet,
465
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,880
and I feel like I was
a very good vet.
466
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,400
It feels a little
bit of an injustice,
467
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,960
since then I've kind of
looked through previous cases
468
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,320
that have gone to court of vets
and nurses under disciplinary action
469
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,400
and you've got actual pedophiles,
470
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,560
sex offenders, drunk drivers
471
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,440
who've caused death,
theft of controlled drugs,
472
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,240
that sort of thing.
473
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,440
So to be lumped in
with actual criminals
474
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,720
when I've purely
given a few truthful opinions
475
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,720
of my own experience
is quite challenging
476
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,680
to take, to be honest.
477
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,840
Like I told you,
they won't talk to me.
478
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,840
That's why I'm talking to you now.
They don't want to talk to me.
479
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:25,960
It is just ridiculous.
480
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,280
And I feel like if people knew
before they got into the business
481
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,720
what they go through
if they make a complaint
482
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:36,640
or were dissatisfied,
what they would go through
483
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,280
to get an answer to something,
484
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,440
they wouldn't get into it.
485
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,200
Was there anything to do
with this particular film
486
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,280
that was
an impacting factor in all this?
487
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:57,600
Yes.
488
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,680
So the company cites Rudy's
489
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:07,080
allowing a film team
to come into his barns
490
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,920
as a reason for termination.
491
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,160
He was terminated,
not because he did anything wrong,
492
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,720
not because he violated
anything in his contract,
493
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,160
it was for speaking out
against the company.
494
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,520
I think the industry hopes
that Rudy will
495
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,440
be a signal to other farmers,
496
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,640
you better shut up or you're going
to get your contract canceled.
497
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,000
The industry works incredibly hard
498
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,280
to stop people
from exposing its secrets.
499
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,680
So given that you were told
you're not allowed
500
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,040
to talk about these things,
does that mean
501
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,000
that you will stop talking about them
502
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,520
and that you can't be a part
of this film anymore?
503
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,800
No, I won't be silenced.
504
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,560
I've acted
in accordance with the oath
505
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,560
I swore on entry to the profession.
506
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,040
So no amount of bullying or threats
507
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,320
will stop me from doing
what is right,
508
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,920
particularly when there's another
issue we haven't spoken about
509
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,840
that's infinitely more
pressing than my career
510
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,560
and potentially much more
devastating than a pandemic.
511
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,880
Are you comfortable and everything?
512
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,040
Brilliant, okay.
513
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,520
If we start off
and you just tell me who you are
514
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,960
and what roles
you have had in the past
515
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,360
and what you're doing now.
516
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,400
Professor Dame Sally Davies.
517
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,240
I'm the master of Trinity College
and the special envoy
518
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,200
on antimicrobial resistance
for the UK government.
519
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,320
Until this time last year, I was
the chief medical officer for England
520
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,280
and the most senior medical advisor
to the UK government.
521
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,520
And given your experience,
what is it that worries you most
522
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,600
about where human health is heading?
523
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,880
It's really interesting,
climate change is of the moment.
524
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,240
The younger generation
have really taken it up,
525
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,480
and I am delighted
because it matters.
526
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,200
But actually AMR will kill us
before climate change.
527
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,560
And we need everyone
to understand that.
528
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,040
AMR is a pandemic,
529
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,800
it's just a slow-growing one,
530
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,600
unlike COVID,
which happened really fast.
531
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,440
What we're seeing is that bugs,
whether they're bacteria,
532
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,040
viruses, parasites, fungi,
are evolving to develop resistance
533
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,080
to the very medicines
we use to treat them.
534
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,640
And unfortunately,
the end result if this goes on
535
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,680
will be really dreadful.
536
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,480
And I've talked about
the post-antibiotic apocalypse
537
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,720
where you'd see a lot longer
stays in hospital,
538
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,800
much higher mortality,
539
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,360
and go back to the era
before penicillin.
540
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,320
Antimicrobial resistance
keeps me awake at night.
541
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,720
What this really looks like
if we don't have effective
542
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,000
antibiotics in the future
is taking your brother, your child.
543
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,680
your wife to hospital
in their prime of life
544
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,440
and knowing as you arrive,
there is nothing that can be done.
545
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,080
That's what this really means.
546
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,640
So antibiotic-resistant infections
or antibiotic-resistant bacteria
547
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,560
evolve whenever we use antibiotics.
548
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,520
And so the main driving force
is the overuse of antibiotics.
549
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,840
The other major factor,
though, is poor hygiene,
550
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,000
poor water.
551
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:29,760
Lack of waste water treatment
552
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,560
in lower and middle-income countries
is a major problem.
553
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,520
So those two things together,
poor hygiene and high drug use,
554
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,960
is what fuels this whole crisis
that we are in today.
555
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,760
Antibiotics have been
a victim of their own success.
556
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,120
They've been so useful,
so since 1928,
557
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,520
when Fleming discovered the first
antibiotic and it got mass produced,
558
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,120
we've taken it for granted
that these antibiotics
559
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,880
will always be there
and we will always have a means
560
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,840
to treat an infection, which isn't
the case anymore really.
561
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,880
There is a big issue when it
comes to the overuse of antibiotics.
562
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,960
But the problem is,
even if all doctors stopped
563
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:09,640
prescribing antibiotics,
564
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:11,960
the animal industry
565
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,800
are getting so many antibiotics
566
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,800
what we do
makes very little difference.
567
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,360
For the past five to ten years,
doctors have felt it is important
568
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,960
to reduce over-prescription
of antibiotics.
569
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,280
This is important
because we want to limit
570
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,600
the antibiotic resistance
that we are seeing
571
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,000
in our patients.
572
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,440
What's more frustrating, I think
to me and other doctors like me
573
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,080
who are aware of the risk,
is that we have no control.
574
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,280
There is no monitoring.
575
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,320
There is no limitation currently
576
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,640
on antibiotic use in factory farms.
577
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,680
This is a box of kind of the remnants
578
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,280
of documents
and conference notes, et cetera,
579
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,280
that I've kept from my years
in the pig industry.
580
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,840
It is quite strange,
coming out and sort of
581
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,840
really looking at this
and looking at the sheer volume
582
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,200
of antibiotics that I was using
and I used regularly.
583
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,040
Hundreds of tons worth of feed
584
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,920
with antibiotics added.
585
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,200
Most of the pigs
586
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,760
bred and slaughtered for meat
587
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,000
will at some point
require antibiotics,
588
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,840
and mostly it's because
of how we're keeping them
589
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,480
and what we're doing to them.
590
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,840
You can't cut off
someone's teeth and tail
591
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,360
and put them into a really
contaminated, cold environment
592
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,440
and expect them
to not need some sort of help.
593
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,240
Antibiotics go hand in hand
with factory farms.
594
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,760
These animals would not survive
long enough to be productive,
595
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,200
to be able to produce the meat
that the agribusiness
596
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,560
is counting on without antibiotics.
597
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,000
Studies have shown that we have seen
antibiotic-resistant bacteria
598
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,520
in the animals in factory farms,
in the workers who are working
599
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,920
in factory farms, in the meat that's
being sold in the grocery stores.
600
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,880
In the soil, in the land, in the air
downstream from factory farms,
601
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,560
we are finding
antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
602
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,240
There is no doubt that the feeding
603
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,560
of animals in factory farms
heavily, heavily contributes
604
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,360
to this ridiculous rise
in antibiotic resistance.
605
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,360
So it was discovered if you fed
606
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,800
really low doses of antibiotics
in animal feed,
607
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,160
that the animals would grow faster.
608
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,840
By 2006, the European Union
609
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,440
banned the use of antibiotics
as growth promoters.
610
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,280
But this didn't resolve the problem
because they were still available
611
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,240
for routine use
on veterinary prescription.
612
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,520
And essentially
antibiotic use, the misuse,
613
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,080
just continued on
and there is no doubt whatsoever
614
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,880
that if we continue along that path,
615
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,720
we are heading
for an antibiotic apocalypse.
616
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:08,880
Do you have any idea if the birds
are being given anything?
617
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,480
Antibiotics...
618
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,640
I have no idea, all I know
is what's on the feed ticket,
619
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:19,040
and that's fiber, protein, fat.
620
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,520
But they don't tell you nothing.
621
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,840
But you'll see the birds
when they're 8 days old
622
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,480
and when they're 29 days old
and you'll see the difference.
623
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,080
So there's got to be something.
624
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,880
I don't know what it is,
never checked into it.
625
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:36,000
So you're saying that's not natural?
626
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,680
No, it's not natural.
627
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,800
More than 70% of the
entire use of antibiotics worldwide
628
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:51,480
is being used in farm animals to prop
up this disease-ridden system.
629
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,080
We have the new pandemic
already emerging.
630
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,680
A pandemic of people dying every year
because of antibiotic resistance,
631
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,840
because of the way that we've
kept animals for all of these years.
632
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,360
What we see is a lot of people
during a pandemic don't actually
633
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,200
die from the virus itself,
but they die from the secondary
634
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,040
bacterial infections that follow.
635
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,160
And if we're going to continue to see
636
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,680
a rise in infectious diseases
because the wildlife trade,
637
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,200
because of ecological,
environmental destruction,
638
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:25,760
because of factory farming,
639
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:27,680
we need antibiotics.
640
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,800
Are those guidances sufficient
641
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,720
in terms of making sure
that antibiotic use is safe?
642
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,040
They're called "guidances"
because they were voluntary.
643
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,960
This isn't a regulation
that the FDA is legislating.
644
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,240
This is a suggestion
645
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,440
to the companies
that are selling the antibiotics.
646
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,080
"Hey, guys,
maybe stop selling these things."
647
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,640
In the UK, the industry is quite good
648
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,360
at saying, "We're not the only ones
to blame," or animal agriculture
649
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,000
isn't the only problem,
and therefore ridding themselves
650
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,560
of blame entirely.
651
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:15,920
And I think
652
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,200
there'd be a lot of chatter around,
653
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,920
"Well we're making a conscious effort
to reduce usage,"
654
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,160
but it's not quick enough.
655
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,600
Yes, over the last five years,
656
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,000
we've had a target to hit
and we have dropped down.
657
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,240
But it's sort of gone like that.
658
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,160
So when we started monitoring,
659
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:40,400
it really dropped down as we realized
what we were doing was ridiculous.
660
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,480
And then it got to a point
661
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,120
where the amount of antibiotics
we are using now
662
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,960
is clearly what we need
to keep these animals alive
663
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,760
in a system which is not good
for those animals.
664
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,680
Short of knocking down half the farms
665
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:57,280
we have and starting again,
666
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,440
I don't think we're going to achieve
a huge drop in usage.
667
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,360
What's really scary
is that this issue
668
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,440
of this coming post-antibiotic era
669
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,680
is essentially being
swept under the carpet.
670
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,760
Yes, some things are being done.
671
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,280
But you scroll back five years ago,
672
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,120
and half the world's antibiotics
673
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,720
were being fed to farm animals.
674
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,720
Now it's 70% or more.
675
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,200
Things are going
in the wrong direction.
676
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,960
Continue as we are,
then the prediction is
677
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,640
that ten million people a year
678
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:30,080
by the middle of this century
could be dying
679
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:33,640
because we squandered antibiotics.
680
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,000
In some ways, you know,
it sounds hyperbolic,
681
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,520
the end of medicine,
682
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,840
but without fixing
the underlying problem,
683
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,120
the systemic problems
that lead to the cycle of new drug,
684
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:48,040
followed by resistant bacteria,
685
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,400
new drug, resistant bacteria,
new drug, resistant bacteria.
686
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,360
If we don't fix that system,
687
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,760
then eventually,
we're going to just run out,
688
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,960
run out of ways to safely
kill these pathogens,
689
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,320
and that's not a place
we want to be in.
690
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,120
Yeah, I don't think the prospect
691
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,680
of the end of medicine
is exaggerated at all.
692
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,840
I think it's perfectly feasible
and it's been forecast.
693
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,520
I mean, it's clear that we're doing
many, many things wrong,
694
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,240
which are a huge health risk.
695
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,720
And for some reason,
our governments are still funding it.
696
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,280
So we asked the Department
for Environment,
697
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,080
Food and Rural Affairs
if they'd be part of this film
698
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,720
so we could ask a few questions.
699
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,760
But they've refused our request.
700
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,040
So as a politician,
why do you think that is?
701
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,200
I think they wouldn't want
to be pinned down.
702
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,920
So I think, my worry would be
703
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,800
that they've become more entrenched
704
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,480
in the old way of thinking
705
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,040
and didn't want to be
put on the spot,
706
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:05,760
didn't want to be challenged.
707
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,520
So what is it you feel
they don't want to talk about?
708
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,320
And do you think they accept
that this is a real issue?
709
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,080
Animal agriculture
is very influential in terms
710
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,400
of relationships with politicians
and trying to influence
711
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:20,760
the political agenda.
712
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,800
They've moved
from denying there's an issue at all
713
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,720
and thinking it's just
the cranks that talk about this
714
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,520
to now there's an acknowledgment as
an issue, so they play lip service
715
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,360
to the fact this is something
that we recognize
716
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,040
we need to do something about.
717
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,560
I think we're now
in that territory where it's,
718
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,600
it's how can we make them act,
719
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,480
now that they've had to acknowledge
there's an issue?
720
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,440
When it comes to
governments in America,
721
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,200
why aren't they doing more
to address these issues?
722
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,280
When people elect someone,
723
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,560
they think they elected
their Congressperson
724
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,200
or their state senator
or their local elected.
725
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,760
They didn't realize that there's
a hidden arm to politics
726
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,440
and decision-making in this country,
727
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,360
and it's those who are paid
by large corporations
728
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,760
to lobby government
and influence the decision.
729
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,600
The lives of voters
are really put to the back burner.
730
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,440
And the lives of those lobbyists
731
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,560
and those special interests control
732
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,640
these important decisions that impact
733
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,360
our kitchen tables every day.
734
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,720
The fact that our governmental
agencies are in bed, really
735
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:36,320
with big agribusinesses is a crime
because rather than protecting us,
736
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,000
the people, our governmental agencies
737
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,000
are protecting
agribusiness industries instead.
738
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,120
Government mantra
is often about cheap food,
739
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,720
and that is why we have
factory farming,
740
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,240
essentially to produce
cheap meat for the masses.
741
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,200
But what that disguises
is the true cost of that cheap meat.
742
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,880
What's happened is that for years,
743
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,000
the factory farm industry has had
the government in its pockets.
744
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,360
It's had millions of pounds
to throw at lobbying
745
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,240
and making sure that it gets its way.
746
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,360
So what's happened is factory farming
747
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,520
is now locked in to our food system.
748
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,920
The governor of South Dakota
says she is trying
749
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,840
to help reopen the pork plant there,
750
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,400
the site of one of America's
biggest outbreaks.
751
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:22,880
More than 800 cases
752
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,400
linked to that plant,
many of them immigrants.
753
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,040
Matt Gutman now on the outbreak
754
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,680
and the dilemma
many essential workers face.
755
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,560
It's frustrating because the very
industries and the practices
756
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,880
that caused this issue
are being treated as essential.
757
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,440
The workers are treated
as essential workers,
758
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,320
and what that means is that they're
759
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,280
kind of being treated
like disposable entities.
760
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,960
And we know that living near these
places and working on these places
761
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,360
means you will be
disproportionately affected,
762
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,800
not only by COVID-19 but other
disease issues and health issues.
763
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,800
We see a wide variety of illnesses
764
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,960
in patients who live and work
around factory farms.
765
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,400
One of the things that we notice
with factory farms is a decrease
766
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,520
in air quality around them,
and it's due to a few factors.
767
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:23,280
One of them is the risk
of aerosolized endotoxins.
768
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,720
Another one is the chemicals
that we're seeing,
769
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,400
so the pesticides,
but also chemicals like ammonia
770
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,800
from the excrement
and things like that.
771
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,320
And finally, we know there's a larger
proportion of things
772
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,560
like Gram-negative bacteria
or fecal bacteria
773
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,280
that are known to cause
illness in humans.
774
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,600
One of my colleagues had a patient
775
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:46,360
who had a multidrug-resistant
urinary tract infection.
776
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,520
Incredibly rare resistance pattern.
777
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,360
No real reason
for this patient in particular
778
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,360
to have this type of infection,
no risk factors.
779
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,160
Her only risk factor
was when you Googled her address,
780
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:00,480
she lived within a mile
of a factory farm.
781
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,960
I'm not a doctor.
I'm not a scientist.
782
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,200
But I can tell you this
as I'm flying over
783
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,440
those factory farms and I can smell,
784
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,040
sometimes I can smell that hog waste
at 2,000 feet in the air,
785
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,960
my common sense tells me that this is
a health risk, a health hazard.
786
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:27,920
We've got about 11 o'clock.
787
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,040
We see a pretty large hog...
788
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,200
Pigs in eastern North Carolina
789
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,520
are producing more fecal waste
each and every day,
790
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,920
than is produced by all the people
in the states of North Carolina,
791
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,280
California, New York, Texas,
792
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,520
New Hampshire and North Dakota.
793
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,200
And they're putting it
in these huge ponds,
794
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,080
the cesspools that they call lagoons.
795
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,000
And when they fill up,
they simply dump it on the ground
796
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,160
under the pretext of growing crops.
797
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,960
Runs into our rivers,
fish begin to die,
798
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,280
the people get sick.
799
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,640
It's no secret why these farms,
800
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:07,720
not farms,
why these factories are here.
801
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:08,960
It's money.
802
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,840
It's big money,
and it's coming at the expense
803
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,800
of the people who live nearby.
804
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,480
It's the people
who work in factory farms,
805
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,720
the people who live
near factory farms,
806
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,560
are far more likely to be
low income people of color.
807
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,000
This is in part
because the industries
808
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,800
have a tendency to preferentially
809
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,640
place their farms
in these communities
810
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,440
of disenfranchised populations.
811
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,960
We're being denied
clean air, clean water,
812
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,000
and they don't even seem to care.
813
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,880
Majority of all these
dirty industries,
814
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,480
CAFOs, whatever, landfills,
815
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,760
they're all located
in communities of color.
816
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,800
Latino and Native
American communities,
817
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,080
that's where they are.
818
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,440
But the owners are not black.
819
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,440
They're not Latino.
They're not Native American.
820
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,040
So why aren't they
in their neighborhoods?
821
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,040
We feel like it's intentional
822
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,840
that they site themselves
in these communities,
823
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:09,280
and we call it environmental racism,
putting stuff in some place
824
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,000
that you wouldn't put
in your own community.
825
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:13,640
You don't want it near you,
826
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:17,400
so you just put it over here
and put it on people
827
00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:19,840
that you think can't fight back.
828
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,440
Every house along this street,
you can count at least one person
829
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,240
in the household that had cancer.
830
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,080
A couple times, I started to go out
with my dogs, it smelled so bad
831
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,800
I just didn't even try
to go outside and play.
832
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,040
I don't think it's people of color
just overlooked here,
833
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,760
they're overlooked everywhere.
834
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,600
They are at least likely
to be represented
835
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,680
in any elected position.
836
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,480
And if they eventually do
get someone elected
837
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,760
in a position,
there aren't enough voices
838
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,320
to actually make a change.
839
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,800
These things is a constant war
on black and brown people
840
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,080
in these communities,
and we deserve to live free
841
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,360
from this type
of constant aggression.
842
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,400
You start to see a trend
of the same health problems.
843
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,560
You start to see respiratory issues,
844
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,680
you start to see
high blood pressure in children.
845
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,840
When I think of my children,
I think that's why I fight so hard,
846
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,320
because I do want my children
to live in a world
847
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,880
where they don't have to think
about environmental injustices.
848
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,680
People are dying from things
they don't have to
849
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,720
just so somebody can make a profit.
850
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,800
Here we got to stay positive.
851
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,520
Evilness, fear and those kinds
of things do nothing but destroy you.
852
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,520
We're going to get it done.
853
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,800
We've lost some great people
that've worked
854
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,400
on this along the way,
but God doesn't intend
855
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,360
for everybody to see the end product.
856
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:12,920
When it comes to factory farming,
857
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:14,800
we know we've got
all of these issues.
858
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,560
Antimicrobial resistance,
infectious disease,
859
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:20,640
racial injustice.
860
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,560
With all of this
coming from factory farms,
861
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:28,160
does that mean that the solution
is switching to free-range
862
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:31,080
and cage-free and small-scale farms?
863
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,840
In my experience of smaller farms,
they're not really what I think
864
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,640
people imagine when they say,
865
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:41,320
"I only buy
from a small family farm."
866
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,200
Some of the worst
867
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,000
disease concoctions I've seen
have been on small farms
868
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,040
because they don't have the income
869
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,360
to afford comprehensive
diagnostic testing,
870
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:53,880
perhaps preventative health care.
871
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:56,880
Part of the reason
African Swine Fever
872
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:58,760
has ripped through China like it has
873
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,080
is because there were
so many backyard farmers.
874
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,760
So in terms of disease surveillance
and knowing what's going on
875
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,720
within an animal population,
it's almost impossible
876
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:14,000
to regulate huge numbers
of small farms,
877
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:15,720
and also deeply impractical.
878
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,880
If people do want free-range meat,
879
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,440
we'd have to have
about twelve planets.
880
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,280
Clearing land for livestock
grazing and feed cropping
881
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,840
is the number one driver
of deforestation worldwide.
882
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:32,440
Feeding the current demand
for animal products
883
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,520
with many smaller farms
would increase that land use.
884
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,920
So whether we factory farm animals
885
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,440
or raise them in small farms,
it's not sustainable.
886
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,000
If you look at the numbers, right,
887
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,640
human population is about 7.8 billion
888
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,960
and the population of animals
that we kill
889
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:57,440
is about 80 billion a year,
890
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,760
meaning
the Earth isn't just supporting us,
891
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,400
she's also supporting the animals
we raise for food.
892
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,000
And our animals eat 7.3
billion tons of food.
893
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,920
So you deforest land
to feed our animals, to feed us.
894
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,800
So animal exploitation
is the number one reason
895
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,840
we are in an unsustainable situation.
896
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,520
So when we say we go back
to small-scale farming,
897
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,000
we are basically saying
the problem is not
898
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:22,280
we eat animal foods,
899
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,760
the problem is that the riffraff
eat animal foods.
900
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,680
If you make poor people
stop eating animals, there's plenty
901
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,400
for the rich to eat animal foods.
902
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:35,520
So it's a very classist,
colonialist argument to make.
903
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:40,400
And I am just shocked that anyone
would make it in this day and age.
904
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,760
We cannot feed the whole world
the same diet we're eating
905
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:52,640
at the moment.
906
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,000
If we do carry on we're not
going to have a planet left.
907
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,040
For instance, in this country,
we use about a million hectares
908
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:05,120
of South American rainforest
to feed our livestock.
909
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,560
So that's someone else's land.
910
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,320
And that's just the UK.
911
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:15,000
You're feeding
those animals resources
912
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:17,280
that can be fed directly to people.
913
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:19,920
My concern is
914
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,760
with the desire to keep making meat,
915
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,120
where is the land going to come from?
916
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,680
Globally, we're very concerned about
deforestation at the moment.
917
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:33,320
There's a lot of emphasis on
918
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,440
retaining our forest land
to combat climate change.
919
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,560
And looking at the Amazon,
920
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,000
vast swathes are cleared
for cattle grazing
921
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:42,840
and for livestock feed growing.
922
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,880
But when you look out
at countryside like this,
923
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,920
we've already done it here,
like most of Britain's forest land
924
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,160
has been cleared already for
agriculture, and that's reflective.
925
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:54,880
across the globe.
926
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:00,280
Biodiversity itself
927
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:05,520
is a protective mechanism against
the emergence of zoonotic diseases.
928
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,840
The more biodiversity you have
generally, the less likely there is
929
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:16,080
to be a zoonotic emergence
because the diversity of life,
930
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,680
the mosaic of species,
prevents any one pathogen
931
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,640
from building up in large amounts.
932
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,440
So as we reduce biodiversity,
933
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,560
we increase the chances
of zoonotic emergence.
934
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:32,840
So it's a lose-lose situation
for the human race
935
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,120
if we're going to
continue down this road.
936
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:39,840
And I'm happy to say
that you're going to see
937
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,880
the first shot done
right here, right now.
938
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:44,440
In the current pandemic,
939
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,400
we're at a place
where we are now looking for answers,
940
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,800
vaccines, treatments, how
to get people off ventilators,
941
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:53,960
on ventilators.
942
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:56,520
I still think
we're missing the point.
943
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,960
90% of the people
who have died from COVID-19
944
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,280
have had at least
one underlying disease.
945
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,600
That's a lifestyle illness,
diabetes, high blood pressure.
946
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,760
So rather than just mopping up
with drugs and treatment,
947
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,560
why don't we get
to the fundamental root cause?
948
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,120
We know that animal products,
949
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,040
again, not just meat,
but dairy, fish, eggs,
950
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,840
all of these have been linked
to increased rates of heart disease,
951
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,760
type 2 diabetes, stroke,
Alzheimer's, some forms of cancer.
952
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:34,160
COVID-19 did not create
the crisis of chronic diseases.
953
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,880
For far too long,
we have been attempting
954
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,240
to push these diseases
under the proverbial rug.
955
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,080
But COVID-19 sort of forced us
to move that rug
956
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:46,640
and show what's under there.
957
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,240
And the chronic diseases
958
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,440
affect the deaths
and hospitalizations of COVID-19.
959
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,400
Our top killers are mostly
lifestyle-related,
960
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,400
and much of that is related
to the consumption
961
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:05,760
of saturated fat, animal protein
and of course, these animal products.
962
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:07,960
I feel like my career
963
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,800
is dedicated to cleaning up the mess
964
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,200
that factory farming
and animal agriculture
965
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,320
is causing with these major
public health problems.
966
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,560
If we think that there may be
tens of thousands
967
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,400
of potential COVID-19-like
viruses out there,
968
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,040
that given the opportunity,
969
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,080
could cause an epidemic
or pandemic in people,
970
00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:32,040
we can't go out and develop vaccines
971
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,240
to all of those tens
of thousands of viruses
972
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,920
and treatments for every
one of them and so on.
973
00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:40,800
We have to have general
principles we can learn from,
974
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,560
such as what are the risk behaviors?
975
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,320
I feel bad.
I've got a great grandson being born
976
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,080
as I'm talking to you right now,
977
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,480
my granddaughter
is in the hospital giving birth.
978
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,520
And I don't think
that that boy Parker
979
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,360
is going to have much of a life.
980
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,520
There's no guarantee
981
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,680
that we're going to be able as humans
to live from this planet forever.
982
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,320
And then the way we're going,
personally, I don't think we will.
983
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:18,840
There's enough left for me
in my lifetime.
984
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:19,960
There's enough left.
985
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,560
And there's enough left
for my daughter and my son.
986
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:25,440
But is there enough left
for my granddaughter Amy,
987
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,840
and for Parker,
who's coming in this world today?
988
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:29,480
I don't think so.
989
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:53,760
It's very hard to communicate
the scale of what we're facing.
990
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,440
But I'm going to try and speak
into my own experiences
991
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,000
of direct involvement in practices
which are not only drawing us
992
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,640
closer to the climate emergency,
but are creating human pandemics,
993
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:11,960
global health crises, and bringing us
ever closer to a man-made disaster.
994
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,800
Here, are you surprised by the
amount of comments you've got online?
995
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:22,080
Not especially.
996
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:23,680
It was never going to be good,
997
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:29,560
coming out of a
multi-billion pound industry
998
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,760
and completely sort of
denouncing all their practices.
999
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,000
As a vet that's done
a particular job for 4 years,
1000
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,440
if I'm saying, "I did this,
and this is what happened,"
1001
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:44,400
like I'm not making that up.
1002
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,520
I think it's quite frustrating.
1003
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:49,960
It would have been very easy to stay
1004
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,760
in a relatively well-paid job,
getting flown around the world,
1005
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,440
wined and dined by pharmaceutical
companies, like doing a secure job,
1006
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:01,920
and just carried on.
1007
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:04,960
But I didn't feel
it was the right thing to do.
1008
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,560
So how are you making money?
1009
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:11,320
You don't have to talk about this.
1010
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,560
- How are you making...
- Not.
1011
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:15,400
Basically, I'm not.
1012
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,600
I'm doing this
because I feel I need to.
1013
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,760
I don't quite know how
to work it out financially, but...
1014
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:23,160
Yeah.
1015
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,360
What will you do,
1016
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,520
or is there a plan
of how to eventually make money?
1017
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:31,960
No, I think...
1018
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:35,920
I don't know.
1019
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,520
So what would your solution be?
1020
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:57,440
Gosh.
1021
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:00,880
I'll try not to get too political.
1022
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,080
Can I just say we should be vegan?
1023
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,400
Solve the problem straight off.
1024
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,040
If everybody on the planet was vegan,
we could release,
1025
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,920
well billions of hectares
of land for wildlife basically,
1026
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,960
because we wouldn't need that land
1027
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,280
to grow food
to feed animals to feed us
1028
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:25,160
because that's the most
inefficient way of growing food.
1029
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,440
If we just ate what we grew,
then there would be
1030
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,520
plentiful supplies
of food on the planet,
1031
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,320
not just for the eight billion people
that we are racing towards now,
1032
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:37,720
but for many, many billions more.
1033
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,760
This planet could be
much more sustainable
1034
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,720
if we didn't eat meat
and we didn't eat animal products.
1035
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:45,800
It's contentious to say that,
1036
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,160
but that's where the science tells us
1037
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:50,160
we have to go
if we're going to survive
1038
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,160
on this planet as a human race.
1039
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:57,920
We've been here on this farm now
for 33 years.
1040
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,200
I've been farming organically
for over 45.
1041
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,960
We grow a whole range
of vegetables and some fruit.
1042
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:08,240
Everything's grown without the use
of any animal inputs.
1043
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,240
So we don't use animal manure,
any slaughterhouse waste
1044
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,320
or any products
from animals whatsoever.
1045
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,680
We're using just the land
we have for our production.
1046
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,680
We get very good yields,
we get very high quality produce.
1047
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,360
So what would you say to somebody
1048
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,200
who said there's no way
of feeding everybody
1049
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,400
without using animal inputs?
1050
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,680
Well, that again is something
we've proved to be completely wrong.
1051
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,480
I mean, our production
is actually per acre
1052
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,000
far higher than most
other farms would be.
1053
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,040
We don't depend
on somebody else's land
1054
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,240
to support that potato.
1055
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,680
So actually our production
is very much higher.
1056
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:46,000
Our footprint compared with a farm
1057
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,560
producing livestock
is incredibly tiny.
1058
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,280
So the question really should be
1059
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,400
can we afford not to farm in this way
1060
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:56,160
rather than can we afford to?
1061
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,440
Because this is a much more
productive way of producing food.
1062
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,360
We do need to take back
control of our health.
1063
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:06,440
The good news is that
this is possible.
1064
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:08,960
I have a plant-based diet,
1065
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,960
and I have that because
it's the healthiest diet to have.
1066
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:16,600
Most studies will tell us that
by having a totally plant-based diet,
1067
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,680
low in fat, low in sugar,
reduced amount of salt,
1068
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,560
it indicates you have
a healthier lifestyle.
1069
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,120
Your diet becomes more nutrient-dense
1070
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:26,640
rather than calorie-dense,
1071
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:28,680
and that is good for everybody.
1072
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,400
This will not be the last pandemic.
1073
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:37,200
I believe that if we take this
seriously and get to the root cause,
1074
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,640
we have a chance of really staving
off so many illnesses in the future.
1075
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,240
We tell our children,
you have to eat meat,
1076
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,960
or you won't get enough protein,
which is an outright lie.
1077
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,160
We tell them you have to drink milk
or you won't get enough calcium.
1078
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:55,920
This is an outright lie.
1079
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,560
So when we build
an entire civilization
1080
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:00,280
on lies, it is unsustainable,
1081
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:02,920
because sustainability is about
1082
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:04,960
getting into alignment
with the truth.
1083
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,160
All that is true is sustainable.
1084
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:10,280
Lies are not sustainable.
1085
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,960
One of my mentors,
Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
1086
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:20,680
stated that we spend a lifetime
pulling people out of the river.
1087
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:24,760
No one goes upstream to prevent them
from falling in in the first place.
1088
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:27,240
Right now,
we're dealing with sick care
1089
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:28,840
instead of health care.
1090
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,400
If we go upstream
1091
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,360
and teach young people
about healthy foods
1092
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,440
and how to consume them,
how to grow them,
1093
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,320
if we switch from waiting
for people to get ill,
1094
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,840
and go to preventing them
from getting ill,
1095
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,600
if we go upstream, by doing so,
we'll live a more healthy lifestyle.
1096
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:47,240
It's not about living forever.
1097
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,400
It's about having the quality of life
while you are alive.
1098
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,080
We can't wait for our governments
1099
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,080
to do the right thing
because I guarantee
1100
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:59,240
we are going to be waiting
for a long, long time.
1101
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,000
So what each of us can do
in the meantime
1102
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,280
is really take
a hard look at what we eat.
1103
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,160
Ultimately, what's good
for animals is good for us.
1104
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:12,280
When we treat animals with kindness
and respect, we also benefit.
1105
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:14,480
There is just no downside
1106
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,480
to having this increased empathy
and to treating animals better.
1107
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,360
There is no downside to that.
1108
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:21,960
There's only upsides to that.
1109
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,320
There's only benefits, not only
for the animals, but also for us.
1110
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,560
Despite everything I just talked
about with you today,
1111
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,240
I actually am optimistic
about the future,
1112
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:35,520
and maybe it's a bit
of a Pollyannaish attitude.
1113
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:37,600
I don't know.
Or maybe I'm just a sucker,
1114
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:40,560
but I am optimistic
because I do believe
1115
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:45,000
that empathy is an integral part
of who we are as a species
1116
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,160
and that that will continue to grow.
1117
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,640
And with that recognition,
I do believe that our behaviors
1118
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:52,160
will change for the better.
1119
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,680
We know that our use of animals
1120
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:01,120
undeniably contributes to the climate
and ecological emergency.
1121
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,920
It's undeniably inhumane
for animals and for people.
1122
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,240
We know we'll see the end of medicine
1123
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,160
as we know it within our lifetimes
1124
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:13,240
if we don't all take
responsibility to change.
1125
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:17,920
I mean, it was awful.
1126
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:23,880
It was really, really horrible stuff
going on and really horrible things
1127
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:25,920
that I had to be involved in.
1128
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:29,760
And I think perhaps if I hadn't
1129
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:31,440
gone on and shared that
1130
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:33,600
hoping I can make
some positive change,
1131
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,680
then it would just be
carried with me the rest of my life.
1132
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:42,080
Everything will stay the same
if nobody speaks out.
1133
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,640
Change is inevitable,
but transformation is intentional.
1134
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:53,640
Transformation is something
we choose to do
1135
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,160
because we are uncomfortable
with the status quo.
1136
01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,240
And we say we can do
something about this.
1137
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,240
We can make this change happen.
1138
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,120
So getting to a
sustainable civilization
1139
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,040
is getting to a civilization
aligned with the truth,
1140
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:10,800
that is aligned with morality.
1141
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:13,760
We have to transform ourselves
1142
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:15,880
if we want to transform the world.
1143
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,680
I meant to say, I don't
know if this is what you were asking,
1144
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,280
but when you were asking
what worries me day to day,
1145
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:54,480
I meant to say that currently,
1146
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:59,040
our complete lack of faith
in science is worrying me.
1147
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,280
Okay, so I'll add that.
95976
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