All language subtitles for MINDHUNTER.S02E05.WEBRip

He never said a word.

All kids have secrets. But this?

He tried to tell us, Bill.

He kept saying,
"I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mommy."

- I don't remember that.
- When he wet the bed.

He hasn't done that in years.

Oh, God.
I... I thought he was ashamed, but...

Was he trying to tell us, Bill?

I don't know, Nance.

What did he think happened
to that little boy?

They had to know he wasn't breathing.

He wasn't a part of any of... of that.
He...

- He watched.
- He knew enough to put him on a cross.

He thought it would bring him
back to life.

I never liked that Martin boy.

I told you, we should
never have let him play with him.

He's too rough.

What if he'd done that to Brian instead?

We both thought it was good
seeing Bri finally have friends.

Are they gonna take him from us?

I won't let that happen.

He has a good home.

Hello?

Uh, I'm dealing with a family matter.
Can you tell him...?

Okay.

Okay, I'll be right in.

- Now?
- Gunn wants to see me.

I'll tell him I'm taking the week off.

- A week?
- Nance.

I just meant
we need to get a handle on things.

Find out what's next.

What happened?

I'm sorry, sir.

I know I should be in Atlanta.

- I got a phone call...
- Which is more than I got.

Apologies.

- I should have called.
- At the very least.

The city has been begging
for federal help for weeks,

and we are kicked out
in less than 24 hours.

Yes, you should have called.

I had to hear it
from the Atlanta office this morning.

Apparently, Holden's introduction
wasn't well received

by the safety commissioner?

- Have you spoken with Holden?
- No.

I'm asking you,
as the leader of your department,

what did Holden say
that so offended the city?

The commissioner's excuse
that this wasn't really a kidnapping

was a convenient means to an end.

- What did Holden say?
- Honestly, sir, nothing out of line.

He gave the commissioner an overview:

that we look for connections.

He did explain he felt
there could be a single, black predator.

It may have been more how he said it, sir,

- than what he said.
- How so?

He might have gone into more specifics
than we can support right now.

The impression from the Atlanta SAC

is that Holden was trying

to steer the investigation

into "avenues the city doesn't want
to explore right now,

- at least not publicly."
- Sounds like politics, frankly.

Name me a major city
where there are no politics.

We have to be smarter than this.

If you sense that Holden is wading
into political waters,

it's your job to stop him...

or at least give me the opportunity
to anticipate the fallout.

Yes, sir. You're right.

I should've read the room better.

We want them to understand
why they need us,

not why they should be wary of us.

I understand, sir.

This cannot happen again, Bill.

- You couldn't have called me?
- Bill, it all happened so fast.

Well, someone had enough time
to call Gunn.

Barney told me
there was nothing we could have done.

It's all politics.

- I'm happy to talk to Ted.
- No. You're not talking to anyone.

And it wasn't all politics, Holden,

until you started selling
your unsupported conclusions.

You agreed
the perpetrator is likely black.

Can you see, just for a moment,
how it might be perceived

when you present a profile
without ever having been to a crime scene?

Next time, shut up
until we've done some groundwork!

Sorry you had to hear that.

You look terrible.

Thanks.

So, I take it
the Atlanta trip has been... curtailed?

I can point the finger at Holden,

but I'm supposed to be watching him.
Supposed to be his blinders.

I let him get swept up in the moment,
impressing people,

- then he must've stepped on a land mine.
- It's a full-time job.

Yeah.

Look, I'll get better at it,
but I need to take a little time today.

- Family thing.
- Everything okay?

Yeah. You know, just...
I'll be back in tomorrow.

Okay.

Um... Gregg and I did Henley.

Gregg?

Yeah. We thought you guys
would be gone for weeks,

and we didn't want the interviews to lag.

How'd he do?

A little... hesitant.

- He shit the rug, didn't he?
- It was a team effort.

The transcripts should be done
by tomorrow.

Look forward to it.

We're gonna be late.

We'll be fine.

It starts in two minutes.

So we'll miss the trailers.

By the time we get our drinks
and our seats,

we'll definitely miss something.

This feels like a big deal.

You're passing it.

It's fine. I'm gonna get this spot.

Look,
it's just that I'm one of those people

who needs to see the whole thing.

Like, I like to get my popcorn, my seat.
I like to watch the trailers.

A lot of people feel this way.

If you say so.

But it's gonna take me at least
another minute to pull into this space.

Because I am a really...

slow... parker.

We are definitely...

going to miss... something.

You know, I have an unopened,
very mediocre,

probably spoiled, bottle of Chablis
at my apartment.

Really?

It has a screw top.

I mean, how can I say no to that?

Ah.

What?

Nothing.

Do you have that wine?

I thought for sure I had unsold you
on that.

Hmm.

I didn't picture you living
in a place like this.

Small?

Sparse.

Your life seems very abundant.

Well, one's expansiveness of spirit

needn't be reflected
by one's personal surroundings.

Who said that?

Me, just now.
Didn't you recognize my voice?

He's adorable.

Yeah. He's not bad.

How often do you see him?

I'm seeing him this weekend.
Gonna take him to a Dukes game.

Dukes?

Uh, Double-A baseball.

You miss him?

Of course.

It's just the idea of shaping another life
that terrifies me.

I can barely manage my own.

I still got milk crates for shelves.

I've got real shelves,
and I don't think that shelves equate

to any higher understanding.

What you've done takes courage.

I'm happy
that you're leading an authentic life.

I'm happy to be here.

With you.

Me too.

I like baseball.

- You like baseball?
- Uh-huh.

I mean, I'm sure I would
if I ever went to a game.

Wendy, I don't introduce my son
to people I'm dating.

Oh, no. Of course.

It's not...

No, it's... it's fine.

I... I'm... I'm sorry. I shouldn't have.

- This is not about you.
- No.

Not specifically you. It's just...

You... You shouldn't introduce your son
to people that you don't know.

You know, I interview the by-products
of promiscuous mothers, and it's...

I'm not saying that you're...

Can we just go back
to just a few minutes ago,

after I had the best sex of my life,

and before I invited myself
to Little League?

It's "minor league."

And... he would really like you.

He's just... He's been through a lot,
and I don't...

I don't want to freak him out.
You know, not until it's... something.

Uh,
was that really the best sex of your life?

Nice save, the dyke mentor story.

And just in time.

I had to come up with something
that would make him feel accepted.

Well, it worked.

But then he adamantly denied
being homosexual.

He was actually more defensive about that
than he was about being called a sadist.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

He protests a lot of things.
Rape, torture, murder.

By saying that he didn't engage
in those aspects of the crimes,

he characterizes himself
as a nonparticipant.

It's amazing how he's able
to compartmentalize.

We have to consider, Henley was a kid.

He might view his participation
as having been beyond his control.

He knew exactly what was gonna happen
to the victims he procured.

And he made a conscious decision
not to intervene.

So whether he participated or not,
he's culpable.

I think there's a distinction
between procurement,

as fucked up as it is, and murder.

Distinction, yes,
but not absolution.

I'm not excusing him.
I'm just asking,

can a teenager be held responsible
for the actions of an adult?

He was trying to please Corll.

He was probably afraid of him.

Actually, he seemed to be more
in thrall of Corll

- than he was afraid of him.
- So is that why he stuck around?

He got off on watching Corll kill?

How do we know Henley got off on it?

"When I did something,
whatever it was, I enjoyed it."

Bill, he assisted in killing 20 boys.

What could possibly be defensible in that?

All I'm saying is, he was 14.

Can we really lump him in
with Kemper and Brudos?

Without Corll's influence,
would he have ever progressed to murder?

There's no way to know.

But incredibly,
he acknowledges a deep connection

with a man that he saw do horrific things.

Who even threatened to kill him.

Maybe his need for acceptance
was more powerful than any moral boundary.

And Corll exploited that.

I've been thinking
that we should talk about our tactics.

You know, we wouldn't have gotten any
of this if I hadn't...

- Improvised?
- Maybe made some shit up?

Touché.

If we're going to teach
an interview technique,

it can't be
strictly following the instrument.

So far, the only thing
that's worked is to talk about them.

Sir.

Henley?

Quite a maneuver, Dr. Carr.
I thought I was reading Holden.

Gregg, would you give us a minute, please?

Assistant Director Wyman is coming down
in a few weeks.

I'm having a small gathering at my home,
and I'd like you all to come.

Of course. Be happy to, Ted.

Wyman could be a powerful advocate in DC.

I'd like him to hear our narrative
directly from you,

the people who created this.

Yes, sir.

So, it's a working party.

Yes, but I want you
to have a good time, Bill. Bring Nancy.

Holden, Dr. Carr,
please feel free to bring a guest.

Thank you, sir. We'll plan on it.

Oh, uh, one more thing.

I got you Manson.

- When?
- Three weeks.

Holy shit.

We have to think carefully
about how we approach this.

Did he say Manson?

We approach it like we do every interview.

No. This is the first time
that we'll sit down

with a subject
who hasn't actually taken a life.

Now what would be valuable

would be to look at him
from the team perspective.

Manson was the undisputed leader
of his Family.

Then that's our approach.

The ME's report corroborates
the testimony of the other children:

that Brian did not directly engage
in the activities

that led to the death of the victim.

However, he was present
and, as he has admitted,

he was the one who suggested
placing the victim on the cross.

He thought it would bring Daniel
back to life...

Mrs. Tench, a child has been forever lost
to his family.

Brian seemingly acted without malice,
and because of his age,

I'm choosing not to pursue legal action
against him.

But the State cannot ignore

that he had ample opportunity
to go for help

or to speak with you, his parents,
after the fact.

He chose not to.

Either he was evading detection,

or he has no concept of right and wrong.

The State is obligated
to try to understand his motives

to ensure he is not a danger to himself
or the community.

- A danger?
- I am transferring him

to the Department of Health
and Human Services for evaluation.

Will we be able to keep him at home?

Yes.

You have been assigned a caseworker
and a mental health professional.

The court will render decisions
based solely on their evaluations.

Your compliance
in this process is mandatory

and will be critical
in determining Brian's future.

Social workers are underpaid
and overeducated.

Don't try and sit this person down
and explain your way out of this.

It won't go over well with them.

No matter what hoops they present,
it's best to jump through.

I thought once they found out Brian
was telling the truth, this would be over.

We get to keep him at home, Nance.

To be poked and prodded by strangers.

- A social worker?
- We don't have a choice.

He didn't do anything.

- Thanks, Art. I appreciate everything...
- It's all right, Bill.

I've got kids myself.

Take care.

Why didn't you say something in there?

- You won't defend your own child?
- It's not a courtroom, honey.

Art's right,
we have to go through the process.

And maybe it's not a bad idea
for Brian to talk to someone.

He's not defective.

He's not a criminal.

I know that, Nance.

He's coming home with us.

Today was a good day.

♪ Cease to exist ♪

♪ Just come and say you love me ♪

♪ Give up your world ♪

♪ Come on, you can be ♪

♪ I'm your kind ♪

♪ Oh, your kind, and I can... ♪

Seriously?

He's not bad.

Just tough to promote?

You're down the rabbit hole.

Did I miss anything that matters?

No. We were just about
to start talking objectives.

Wendy is absolutely right.

- Uh-huh.
- We're not asking Manson about killing.

What we need to find out
is how a diminutive,

uneducated ex-con

convinced a group
of middle-class teenagers

to brutally murder seven strangers.

The killers:

Susan Atkins, 19.

Manson called her "Sadie."

Church choir member.

Linda Kasabian, 20.

Good student.

Described as a "starry-eyed romantic"
by her friends.

Patricia Krenwinkel, 22.

Studied catechism.
Considered becoming a nun.

Mary Brunner, 26.

Librarian.

And Tex Watson, 24.

Honors student,
school paper editor, lettered athlete.

Looks like a high school yearbook.

All grew up in average homes,
had high school educations,

some had college.

Then all became runaways
and somehow washed up in Manson's Family.

With the exception of Brunner,
the very first Family member,

their transformation to murderers
took less than two years.

Mary Brunner wasn't involved
in the Tate/LaBianca murders.

That's correct.
She was arrested with Bobby Beausoleil

just two days before Tate/LaBianca.

The pair killed a music producer
over a bad drug deal,

but what's really of interest
is the scene.

Brunner and Beausoleil tried to pin
their murder on the Black Panthers

by writing "political piggy"
on the wall in the victim's blood.

Now here's the LaBianca scene.

"Death to pigs."

And the scene at Cielo Drive...

"Pig" in Sharon Tate's blood.

Helter Skelter.

It was Manson's theme.

The prosecution's case

rested on his desire
to incite a race war as motive

and his control over the Family as means.

Ever heard of Krishna Venta?

- No.
- Ex-con who declared himself a messiah.

He founded his own church,

preaching society was corrupt and doomed.

He said there was a race war coming.

Krishna said he knew a secret place
in the desert

where he
and his flock could wait it all out.

Then, when the war was over,

they'd emerge
and create a new civilization.

- That's right out of Manson's playbook.
- Krishna's playbook.

Manson stayed at his church in '68.

He said, "It's like the spirit
of everything brought me there."

Later,
he espoused exactly the same doctrine,

calling it "Helter Skelter."

Helter Skelter wasn't even Manson's idea?

As borrowed as the name.

He's a fraud.

Still, the question remains,

how does a guy like that...

get kids like that...

to do that?

Have you noticed any changes
in his behavior, self-soothing?

Not at all.

- Do you read to him, Mrs. Tench?
- Mm-hmm.

He likes Clifford the Big Red Dog.

Sports, Mr. Tench?

He rides his bike.

- Almost off training wheels.
- But no team sports.

No.

What does he do when he's upset?

He's not a big talker, but...

he always comes to us
if he needs anything.

And he attends the public school?

Yes.

Which has no special education department?

- No.
- No, we've never felt

he needed that kind of...

Brian's just shy.

I see.

How do you handle bad behavior?

Nothing extraordinary.

Sent to his room, the usual thing.

Corporal punishment?

- Never.
- No.

- Do you have a weapon in the house?
- I keep my gun in my office.

And you keep it locked?

At all times.

Brian!

Brian, come here.

Hm.

This is Miss Leland.

Ms. Leland.

Hi, Brian.

Bri, why don't you go inside
and read some Clifford?

I'll be right in.

Go on.

Does he avoid you?

He's had a tough few weeks.

Ms. Leland, we love Brian.

He may be adopted, but he's our baby.

Of course he is, Mrs. Tench.

At our next appointment,
I'll need the birth certificate,

his medical records,
and all school reports.

These explain the process.

Basic child safety guidelines.

I'll be stopping by periodically,
unannounced, to observe.

We need to establish a baseline
for how he behaves in this environment

to evaluate his progress.

Then we can determine
whether adjustments need to be made.

What kind of adjustments?

We won't know until we've spent some time.

Your appointments with Dr. Moritz
will be every Friday.

You'll both need to attend.

Of course.

We'll submit regular reports
to the commonwealth attorney

with our recommendations.

Ultimately,
he'll make all decisions moving forward.

We'll see you.

Yes, you will.

We do the exact same thing.

What's that?

Walk the crime scene.

Don't get too comfortable
around her.

She's not our friend.

Hold it!

- FBI.
- Thank you.

You hoping for an autograph?

It's research.

Try not to moisten yourself
before you get inside.

It's gonna be a bit of a wait.
He's refusing to come out of his cell.

I'm stunned.

- Any chance Kemper's available?
- I can check.

No! Not Kemper.

We came to see Manson.

- We'll wait him out.
- Bill, I'll be fine.

You need to ask Kemper about returning
to the scene of the crime, for BTK.

We know he did that. He told us.

But we need to know why.

I will be fine.

Besides, how's Manson gonna feel
when he finds out we're talking to Kemper?

These guys are all jealous of each other.

For the use of reason

is to justify the obscure desires
that move our conduct,

impulses, passions,

prejudice, and follies.

Gentlemen.

What a surprise.

- Bill.
- Ed.

Holden.

Good to see you, Ed.

Have a seat.

Do you know that Holden came to see me

when I was in the hospital?

I'm aware.

It really meant a lot to me.

That's what friends are for, right?

So, Manson, huh?

Word travels fast.

Oh, it's hard to keep
something like that quiet.

Everybody knows when Charlie takes a shit.

And if you haven't heard,
he'll tell you all about it.

Even if somebody else took the shit
for him.

- Right.
- He's never done that.

Doesn't know what it's like.

You're saying
he's not worth our attention?

The "mayhem" has been
copiously mythologized.

If you really want to understand
how that all went down,

you should talk to Tex.

- The all-American pawn?
- Yeah.

- I'm sure you're right, Bill.
- We'll keep that in mind.

But we didn't come here
to talk about Manson.

Oh.

What did you want to talk about?

You, Ed.

I wanted to ask you
about something you said a while back.

About revisiting
the sites of your victims.

Mm-hmm?

Why did you do that?

Well, at the murder site,
I could relive the experience.

Feel the same elation,

the incredible release.

It excited you.

Yes.

I would also relive
the sexual gratification.

What would make you decide to visit?

The feeling of complete dominance,
total possession you get from a kill,

becomes a need.

That need builds
until it becomes a compulsion

to a point that you have to hunt again.

Sometimes, I could stave off that need

by remembering the moment of the kill.

You can really savor that
when you're in the exact spot.

What if you can't make it to a site?

Too many people around.

I kept things. Little trinkets.
Reminders of my experience.

The Polaroids.

I could hold them. Possess them.

They were souvenirs.

Was there a specific amount of time,

something you could measure,
when the "souvenirs" weren't enough?

Have you got somebody, Holden?

Someone you can't catch?

Is that right, Bill?

Who is it? The East Area Rapist?
The San Mateo Slasher?

I-45 Killer down in Texas?

You've found somebody
who hasn't made the news yet.

Just startin' out.

Would you have any thoughts
on someone like that?

Of course.

But I'd have to be acquainted
with the pertinent facts.

We can't discuss ongoing investigations,
Ed.

With anyone.

I'm sure you understand.

Of course, Bill.

It's a taxing lifestyle.

A lot of factors that go into success.

As I got better,

I was very careful
that all conditions were exactly right.

This person you're after,
he has an overwhelming fantasy life.

Fantasies of what he's done,
what he wants to do,

how he's going to improve.

These dreams will consume him.

Soon, the real world won't even compare.

How do we catch a fantasy, Ed?

You can't. If he's any good,

you'll never see it.

He'll live like any other person,
have relationships, hold down a job.

We know killers don't have the tools
to manage real life.

They come from marginalized backgrounds,

they break under the pressure
of what they've done. They make mistakes.

It seems to me
everything you know about serial killers

has been gleaned
from the ones who've been caught.

He's ready.

Sorry, Ed.

That's all right, Bill.

Did you save enough tape
for the charlatan?

I brought extra.

You'll need it. He's a talker.

I'm still trying to write my book.

I just need access to a typewriter.

- Yeah, we'll see what we can do.
- Thank you, Bill.

See you around.

One more thing.

Manson is really small.

Like, really small.

Try not to stare.

Suck my dick!

That's my bitch!

Fuck you, man!

Fuck you!

Fuck you! Fuck you!

Do you think we should talk to Tex?

You realize Kemper keeps reeling you in?

He's the most cogent,
credible subject we've ever interviewed.

The bar is low.

If Kemper hadn't turned himself in,

he could've avoided capture
for as long as he wanted.

He's an incredible resource.

You bought a new microphone.

For posterity.

Like a fucking king.

Uncuff him, please.

All of them.

I'm Special Agent Tench.

This is Special Agent Ford.

This isn't an interrogation, Mr. Manson.

We know that you didn't commit the Tate
or LaBianca murders.

What we're interested in
is your relationship with your Family.

And what bearing that relationship had
on the crimes.

Please.

We'd like to hear from you,

in your own words, about what happened.

Do you mind if we record this?

Over the years,
some members have blamed you

for the murders,

then changed their story.

Others, quite famously,
have protected you.

You seem to have a hold on them
even from prison.

But no matter what they say,

you maintain the same story.

Because my truth is simple.

- And your truth's complicated.
- Complicated how?

Well, you don't see it,
but the only truth is now.

Now is the only thing that's real.

Well, we're mainly interested in then.

How you met, influenced,

and indoctrinated the people
who followed you.

Indoctrinated? Come on, man.

How did the Family begin?

Did you start with the girls?

These people you call the "Family,"

they're just children
that you didn't want.

You threw 'em out like trash.

So I picked them up
off the side of the road, and I said this:

in love, there is no wrong.

Love? That's what you taught your Family?

You're a family man, Agent Tench?

- Yeah.
- Yeah?

Yeah, he's a family man, too,
with his keys and his gun.

He's teaching his children right now.

They're learning his beliefs,
and they'll be living 'em.

And you, you're teaching your children.

Look at yourself,
judge the lies you live in.

These children
that come at you with knives,

they're your children.

They were your followers, Charlie.
You gave them the knife.

You taught 'em!
I didn't teach 'em.

I just tried to help 'em stand up.

And they stood up, went out,
and killed seven innocent people.

Oh, so now it's my fault?

It's my fault
that your children do what they do?

Your own children who you are neglecting?

We know that no one in the Family acted
without your approval, Charlie.

Well, if you know, you know.
You don't need to talk to me.

It's yourself you need to talk to.

Let's talk about August 9th, 1969.

That is gone in the past.

And when it is gone, it is gone, brother.

That summer, you told the Family,
"Now is the time for Helter Skelter."

That they needed to start a race war
by murdering wealthy white people...

That's the district attorney's fantasy.
That's his fears.

That's a reflection of his fears.

So you're saying that this never happened?

Sure,
I'm saying that never happened!

Bugliosi is a genius, man!

He got everything a prosecutor
would want, except one thing: a case.

He doesn't have a case!

So he puts Linda Kasabian on the stand,

and she tells a sad story
about how she has lied,

and cheated, and...

and done every dishonest thing
that she can think of.

Oh, but it's okay,
she's telling the truth now.

She wouldn't have any ulterior motive,
like immunity for seven counts of murder.

You're saying she lied?
All the witnesses lied?

Each witness got up and testified
only what was best for them.

They didn't testify what was best for me.

Do you believe
this Helter Skelter bullshit?

"Death to Pigs."
"Political Piggy."

- Got to admit, it sounds like a vision.
- There's no vision.

I might have had an opinion
about blacks and whites

and the hassles they were havin'.

But I don't recall saying anything
about starting a race war.

So how did that become the story?

It was Sadie who started hearing messages
in the White Album.

She gave the media the material
for any perversion they cared print.

The DA grabbed Sadie's version,

ran all the way
through the courtroom with it:

"Charles Manson:
the most dangerous man alive."

"Hippie cult leader
who programmed people to kill."

In that book, he's got me so powerful,
a look from me stopped his watch!

I'd lay there in my cell wondering,

"Wow, am I really all they say?"

I was halfway believing that shit myself.

But I've been staring
at every clock I see.

And you know what?

As hard as I stare, the clock never stops.

You had a group of teenagers isolated
in the desert.

You gave 'em drugs,
you convinced 'em you were God,

and you sent 'em out to kill.

Listen man, Bobby Beausoleil was sitting
in jail for murder, you dig?

Tex and Sadie came to me

and said, "Let's do some copycat killings
to get him off."

You're saying the murders, everything,

was just to get Bobby Beausoleil
out of prison?

Those kids were looking at me
with hard eyes.

Yeah, your kids.

Tex Watson, the all-American boy?

The pride of Copeville, Texas?

I have better sense
than to disagree with him.

So I said this:

"You do what your love tells you to do.

I'll do what my love tells me."

Now whatever he did, that's up to him.
He'll have to explain it to you.

Just to be clear,

this was their plan?
You weren't responsible...

You got a circle
that a man lives inside of.

He's responsible for his circle
and his circle only.

Now, I don't recall saying anything about,

"Go get a knife and kill anyone"
or anything.

Bullshit.

If I wanted,
I could kill you with your mic cord.

With your pencil.

But I wanna love myself,
so I'm not going to do that.

No, you're gonna put it
in someone else's circle.

Listen, man. Tex?

It was hard to tell if he was at the end
of an old high or startin' a new one.

Now, I went back
to the Cielo Drive house that night,

and sent one of the kids inside
to see if he'd really done it.

Why didn't you go inside?

It was a crime scene.
I'd have been in violation of my parole.

But you were at the LaBianca murders,
weren't you, Charlie?

I had to go. I had to go.

- You had to?
- Yeah. Listen, Tex,

he put himself on me, man.

He tried to make me look weak.

We were moving forward inside ourselves.

We were learnin' new things.
And he changed it.

See, he went outside.
He made his own circle.

And, what, now he wants to go back
to "Jesus loves me"?

Blood of the lamb,

the right/wrong games we played
for 2,000 years?

Right and wrong is a game?

There are no rights and wrongs, only ises.

Whatever life is, it is.

Right and wrong got nothing to do with it.

So the murder of seven people just "is"?

Well, it is, isn't it?

No one ever dies, no one ever lives.

Those are two words in a leftover game.

People did die, Charlie.
You made sure of it.

Everything is love, man.

There's nothing that isn't love.

Really?

Nothin'?

How much more of this shit
do you wanna listen to?

You need to walk
on a different street, guy.

Put your clothes on backwards,
and let everyone laugh at you.

You're a coward, Charlie.

A coward who takes no responsibility
for his actions.

Yeah, you eat meat with your teeth,

you kill things that are better than you,

and then you say
your children are killers.

No, I'm saying you're a killer.

- I have killed no one...
- You ordered them to go to that house

- and slaughter everyone there.
- ...and I wanted no one to be killed.

I did not direct anyone to do anything
other than what they wanted to do.

You didn't stop them either.

I always let children go.
If he falls, that is how he learns.

You become strong by fallin'.

You're not supposed to let children fall.
You're supposed to guide them.

Guide them into what?

Guide them
into what you've guided them into?

- You fucking midget!
- Bill!

This anger that you're feeling,
Agent Tench,

this is just the anger
that you have got for you.

Find someone else to put yourself on.

I'm tired of being your goat.
I'm tired of being your reflection.

- You're not my reflection.
- I've always been yours.

I've been in your cell
since I was eight years old.

I don't even have a name.

I'm B-33920.

A bell rings, I get up!

A bell rings, I go out!

A bell rings, I do what that bell says.

I'm Pavlov's dog, man.

I'm anything you want me to be.

But what you want is a fiend...

because that's what you are.

See, I never had any say in your world,

you created it.

How do you feel about those murders?

That's what counts.

Happened in your world, not in mine.

What "counts" is that you ordered
the deaths of seven people.

Eight if you "count" an unborn baby.

And now you can reflect it back on me,

and you can lock me up
in your penitentiary,

and you can say that your world's better.

But prison's a frame of thought.

We're all our own prisons,
we are each our own wardens,

we do our own time.

Prison is in your mind.

Can't you see I'm free?

- You don't look so free to me, Charlie.
- You don't look free to me!

You look like a composite
of what someone told you you are.

You live for other peoples' opinion,
you got pain on your face,

and you wonder if you look okay.

- That's it.
- Bill.

Hey, man.

I like your sunglasses.

Can I have 'em?

Thank you kindly.

The guru of Munchkinland can fuck off
straight to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Agent Ford!

Manson said he lifted these from you.

- He said he stole them?
- He was braggin' about it.

He's on his way to the hole.

It's such bullshit.

What makes more sense?

Manson being forced to go along
with Tex and Sadie's copycat crime,

or a race war predicted by the Beatles?

You're saying the DA lied?

I'm saying he gave it a narrative.

He had to explain
to a normal, middle-class jury

how some normal, middle-class kids
brutally murdered seven people.

Jesus, Holden.

Watson's an hour away.

Let's just spend the night
and talk to him.

I have to get home.

- You can't spend one more day?
- No, I can't.

And after Atlanta, we can't fuck up again.

If you stay and do this interview,
I need to know,

can I trust you?

Absolutely.

Just go in, do the interview,
come home. Got it?

I promise.

Thanks, Bill.

Fuck. What time have you got?

5:16.

Something wrong with your watch?

Excuse me!

FBI.
Is there any way you could hold the plane?

I'm sorry, sir. It's gone.

Is there a red-eye?

10:00 pm. Arrives in Washington at 6:30.

Thanks.

I apologize.

I can catch him up on things
if you... wanna start.

The appointment is
for the benefit of both parents.

I'm sorry.

So sorry I'm late.

Of course. It happens.

I just, uh, would be careful being late
to appointments with Ms. Leland

or the CA's office.

What we're trying to do here is avoid
as many red flags as we can.

Absolutely.

I'm here to help you both,

and Brian, of course,
get through this as easily as possible.

Thank you.

Now, the goal of our sessions
will be to glean Brian's understanding

of the event, his intentions...

He didn't mean
to do anything to that little boy.

He thought by making a cross...

Mrs. Tench, I...
I'm going to need to hear that from Brian.

Well,
I think I understand my child.

Your knowledge
of Brian's behaviors

is going to be essential.

But we have to complete
the process methodically.

We understand.

Uh, let's start with homelife.

I see, from Ms. Leland, that your work
with the bureau involves some travel.

Your wife tells me
you teach "road school"?

He's home most of the time now.

Why exactly were you late, Mr. Tench?

I work in Behavioral Sciences for the FBI.

- I don't know what that means.
- My unit develops procedures

for identifying criminals

by their psychological fingerprint.

And how do you do that?

We conduct interviews
with convicted felons,

try to codify their behavior,

gain insight into their mental states.

What types of criminals do you deal with?

I study multiple murderers.

And were you interviewing
an actual murderer this morning?

I was late because I was in California

interviewing Charles Manson.

Manson?

Yes, sir.

Wait. You spoke directly
with Charles Manson?

Wow. He is quite the character, isn't he?

You ain't kiddin'.

Yeah, I... I must admit, I'm very intrigued
by what that conversation was like.

Could you share any tidbits?

Sure.

Now that I've been
in here a while,

I understand Charlie a whole lot better.

How so?

It's survival.

Charlie's not a tough guy,
so he created a prophet persona.

A false prophet, for sure.

Nothing he ever said came true
except for the things we did.

But he could convince you of things
you never thought possible.

We didn't know if he was Jesus
or the Devil, but...

either was better
than facing the world alone.

But you didn't grow up alone.
You said you had a loving family.

You must have developed a moral compass
before you ever met Charlie.

Let's just say Charlie had a way
of making you think things were your idea.

He'd start small,
like, he'd gather us in a circle,

and he'd put a chair in the middle,

and he would tell us to imagine
there was a person in that chair

and that we had to scare them to death.

Staring at 'em. Screaming at 'em.

An empty chair?

But in our minds, they were sirens
of the apocalypse sittin' there.

Charlie would talk about things
we might do to them.

Like, break into their houses,

tie them up, kill their families.

Those ideas, they were only ours
because they were his first.

Once we incorporated them,
he'd send us out creepy-crawling.

- Sorry. What is creepy-crawling?
- It's what Charlie called it,

sneakin' into people's houses,

movin' furniture around.

He said it would help us face our fears,
go beyond them.

But Charlie was giving us so many drugs,
we didn't know what fear was.

He gave them to you?

Belladonna, Orange Sunshine, STP.

By the time
Charlie said Helter Skelter was coming,

- we were doin' really heavy stuff.
- Charlie talked about Helter Skelter?

All the time.

He told us Helter Skelter was concocted
by the district attorney.

From the moment I met him,
Charlie was talkin' about a race war.

We lived every day
thinking the world was about to end.

There is freedom in that.

If there's no tomorrow,
there's no consequences.

Does it matter what you do
on your last day on earth?

What crimes might you commit, Agent Ford?

I'd like to think
I'd still know right from wrong.

By then, there was no wrong.

I had no conscience.
That had been taken from me.

By Charlie?

Charlie said you
and Sadie came up with the murders

as a way of getting Bobby Beausoleil
out of prison.

You have to understand, we were all one.

We were part of the all.

We thought the same thoughts.

Charlie kept saying

that if blackie didn't start
Helter Skelter soon,

then we'd have to show 'em how.

He chose Cielo Drive
because he'd been there before.

- So that was his idea.
- They were all his ideas.

But he didn't go with you.

Charlie wasn't about
getting his hands dirty.

He did go to the house.

Only after it was all over.

Did Charlie give you or the girls
any specific orders?

He told me to kill everyone.

He said, "Make it as gruesome as you can."

Told me, "Kill 'em all."

And you did.

Yes, sir.

I remember...being in the car.

I had so many drugs in my system,
my mind kept phasing in and out.

I was lyin' with my head in Sadie's lap.

She shook me
and told me to cut the phone lines.

Next thing I remember,
we were walkin' up the drive.

There were headlights,
and Sadie hollered, "Get him."

I looked down,

I had a gun in my hand,

so I stuck it in the window

and I pulled the trigger.

There was no thought. No feeling at all.

Eighteen-year-old Steven Parent.

That was the first true sin of my life.

But I've repented of it.

God's grace has blessed my soul
with the peace of his forgiveness.

You said you felt nothing?

Because death didn't matter to us.

Okay.

What happened in the house?

I remember following Sadie inside.

There was a man asleep on the couch,

it was quiet.

Then people started coming in
from other rooms.

A man was comin' at me, yellin'.

I... I had the gun, so I shot him.

Everything just busted open.

Women were screamin'.

We were stabbin' people, runnin' around.

There was blood everywhere.

Did you feel anything then?

Sadie had to kick me to get me going.

But you... got going.

You have to remember,
those people, they were just shapes.

They had no faces.

Sadie was outside hollerin' for me.

She had this woman pinned on the lawn...

...so I stabbed her.

You stabbed Abigail Folger...
28 times.

Yeah.

She was... practically dead
when I got there.

Frykowski had 51 stab wounds.

I remember the knife
going up and down, like, um...

...a hammer in an engine block

until my fist disappeared in the mess.

And then?

And then we went into the living room.

Where Sharon Tate was.

Could you see she was pregnant?

Oh, yeah.

If there are any problems,
I'm gonna talk to him about it.

They're gonna try.

She begged us to take her with us,

let her have her baby and kill her after.

Tex?

It didn't seem crazy at the time,
the idea of takin' her.

But I kept hearing Charlie's voice,

"Kill 'em all."

He told me over and over again,
"Make sure everyone's dead."

So you made sure.

I did what Charlie told me.

Except go to the other houses.

What other houses?

Charlie had given us a list,
but...I was tired.

It's hard stabbin' people, Agent Ford.

Sometimes you hit bone.
My hands were aching.

So we went back to the ranch, and...

and I slept like a baby.

Tex, do you think
you would have ever killed anyone

if you hadn't met Charlie?

I hope not.

I pray to God I wouldn't have, but...

I know, in my heart, I harbored anger.

I shot and I stabbed them.

I beat Frykowski's head with a pistol
until it broke in my hand.

But Charlie told you to do it.

Charlie never killed anyone.

He just removed our fear of doin' it.

So you're taking responsibility.

I killed those people.

All of them.

Those people are victims
of the Watson murders.

But the Bible tells us, all have sinned,
and all fall short of the glory of God.

He who confesses obtains mercy.

I was lost...

...until I gave myself
to the Lord.

But now, I've been redeemed
by the perfect blood of Christ.

First Manson and then Jesus.

He's just exchanged one belief system
for another.

See, the contradicting stories
don't concern me.

Neither is a completely reliable source.

And I'm not so sure
that Manson was a total loss.

He had influence over his young followers

much in the same way
that Corll had over Henley.

He used sex and drugs.

But he also had an overt philosophy.

If you can call it that.

What is Helter Skelter, really?

It's borrowed.

But how is it useful to him?

What if the point of Helter Skelter
wasn't a race war?

What if it was about control?

- Over the Family?
- A cause to forge solidarity.

What if Tex and Sadie did come up
with the idea of a copycat crime?

It's proactive, risky, revolutionary.

It may not have been what Manson intended,
but they called his bluff.

They were doing what he only talks about.

From Manson's perspective,
his authority would have been threatened.

He'd have no choice
but to go along with it.

At the LaBianca house,

Manson went in and tied up the victims
before sending the killers in.

He wanted to remind them
that this was his plan.

Not anyone else's.

He was doing whatever he could
to keep authority over his Family.

Control, or at least the appearance of it,
was worth any cost.

Even seven murders.

When we were leaving,
he did a weird thing.

He asked for my sunglasses,
so I gave them to him.

A guard chased me down
and said Manson bragged

to everyone he stole them from the FBI.

He was willing to go to the hole
just to look powerful.

On the one hand,
you have a bunch of drugged-out kids.

On the other,
a practiced, manipulative ex-con.

And you're arguing
that Manson was forced into it?

Tex gave a pretty detailed account
of succumbing to brainwashing.

He didn't dismiss the idea

that he would've killed
without meeting Manson.

Manson found the right people.

Young, submissive, alone.

But primarily,
people with untapped potential.

People who saw themselves as outliers.

People who only had to have
their fear removed to do what they did.

He simply helped them be who they were.

Hi.

- Escort me in?
- Nancy not coming?

Didn't want to drag her
to another office thing.

- You?
- Same.

So, how painful do you think...

...this thing is gonna be?

From the look of the house,
at least the booze will be good.

Welcome.

Come on in.

Everyone's in the living room.

AD Wyman's already here.

I've been giving him a little warm-up.
Saving the best parts for you, of course.

Remember,
all they want is a good war story.

Got a few of those.

Bill, go ahead in. I'll be right there.

Thank you.

Shilling for the FBI probably is not
what you expected to be roped into.

Oh, it's fine. I did plenty of it at BU.

Well, I appreciate it.

And I do want you to have a good time.

Speaking of which, there's someone
I would love for you to meet. Warren.

This is Dr. Wendy Carr.

Oh. Um... It is a pleasure, Dr. Carr.

Warren is our liaison
with the LEAA,

so basically,
he manages our purse strings.

The good news is, I'm already a fan,
so there's no need to sell me.

Whew. Well, that's a relief.

Let me have a drink sent over.
What will you have?

A glass of white wine, thank you.

So you actually read our reports?

They are so much more interesting
than budget committee minutes.

That's a low standard.

Well, I really have read them, Doctor...

- May I call you Wendy?
- Of course.

I've read the transcripts.

I've read the analyses,
and they're fascinating.

And truly original.

We were asked to keep our "originality"
in the basement when we started.

It must have been quite a shock,

coming from the world of scholarship
and daylight

into a bunker full of G-men.

I'm doing work
that I wouldn't be able to do

- anywhere else.
- You are hardly what I expected

from the "Dr. Carr Commentary
on Ed Kemper's Mutilation Fantasies."

Well, I'm afraid to ask what you expected.

Something not so form-fitted.

- A lot more tweed.
- Ah.

George, this is Special Agent Bill Tench.

- Founder of our Behavioral Science Unit.
- Ah.

I was telling George
I only know the boring admin side.

You are the guy who sits in the room
with the serial killers.

That's me, sir.

Amazing. Ted says no cuffs on these guys.
Is that right?

Makes 'em feel like we really want to hear
their side of the story.

Bill has been able
to get things out of Speck,

Berkowitz, even Manson,
that they have never said to anybody else.

We went into Berkowitz thinking we were
just going to hear that same old demon,

barking dog story.

What could we possibly learn
from a guy that crazy?

But we got him to admit
that the whole demon thing

was totally made up.

- He said that?
- A complete crock.

And he said the shrinks ate it up faster
than anybody.

But hiding in a basement
or hiding behind a typewriter,

you know, what else do you enjoy?

I don't consider
either of those things "hiding."

What I mean is,

you have a very compelling presence.

Spending all your time
in such solitary pursuits,

you may not even be aware of your...

your effect on people.

What are we doing here?

- Well, every job has its politics.
- What I mean is,

we could be somewhere else, together.

Oh.

I'd like to be alone with you.

Ah, Warren, no, thank you.

- We could be really enjoying ourselves.
- Holden!

This is Special Agent Holden Ford

who's also with Behavioral Science.

This is Warren...

Freeman. Justice liaison.

- Hi.
- Hi.

Were you looking for the bar?

'Cause I was thinking
about getting myself a refill,

but I'm just gonna stop off
at the ladies' room, first.

I'll get your drink,
and we can finish our conversation.

Oh.

It's this way.

- Thank you.
- Yeah.

The guard said he bragged
he'd stolen sunglasses from an FBI agent.

They threw him in solitary.

Rather than say they were a gift...
There he is!

...he preferred to do six weeks
in the hole

just to look like he was a badass.

Gentlemen, this is Special Agent Ford.

He's been key in developing many
of the techniques we now use in the field.

Bill's been regaling us.
You must have some amazing stories too.

I've had many of the same experiences
Bill's had.

I'll leave you in Agent Ford's hands.

Excuse me while I take a leak.

What's important in the Manson story

is that we're learning
what compulsions motivate behavior.

For him, it was the appearance of control.

His crimes can be boiled down
to that singular need.

By correlating psychological fingerprints
to known behaviors,

we're building a primer
to understanding criminal action.

How did you escape the dog and pony show?

You know,
it's cheating to hide with the wives.

Uh, Warren Freeman.

You know him?

Oh, yeah.

He's popular in the secretary pool

and the wives' club.

How'd you get away?

I... I grabbed on
to the first passing body.

Happened to be Holden.

That bad, huh?

Oh, I should've known.

How go the war stories?

I never know
exactly what it is I'm selling.

It's not the work.

I'm really just selling
somebody else's ass up the ladder.

Still, it's a hell of a lot better than...

Sorry.

I got some things going on at home.

You okay?

Brian was playing with some older boys
and a toddler.

Things got out of hand...

and the older boys
ended up suffocating the toddler.

Oh, my God.

Brian saw it all.

He must've remembered the Bible story

because he convinced the other boys
to take the body and tie it to a cross.

He's exempt from charges, thankfully.

But he...

We have to go
through court-mandated protocols.

Is Brian talking to someone?

We've got a psychiatrist, a social worker,

benchmarks we have to meet.

How is Nancy?

She's not grasping
that Brian might need some kind of help.

On the other hand,

she won't leave him alone
for five minutes.

That's really why she's not here tonight.

We haven't left the house
since it happened.

I mean, just give it time.
I mean, this is huge.

And really, Bill, anything that I can do.

I'm gonna ask for your discretion.

Holden doesn't know.

I understand.

They look critically bored.

We should get back in there.

Perform life support.

You know, Bill,
I think that I just might sneak out.

I don't blame you.

Wendy.

I hope I didn't frighten you off.

I'd love for us to finish our talk,
maybe somewhere quieter.

Oh, thank you,
but I'm actually not feeling very well.

Oh, I'd love to drive you home.

- I insist.
- I'm perfectly fine to drive.

Well, at least let me see you out.

No, Warren, I'm going to see myself out.
I insist.

♪ When we're out together ♪

♪ Dancin' cheek to cheek ♪

Wyman's invited you
to speak at the annual directors' retreat.

I accepted for you.

A spectacular country club: skeet, golf.

No wives.

And it's face time with the director.

That's what we were hoping for tonight,
sir?

Miss. Let's get this man a drink.

He's earned it.

Think you can get Holden
to loosen up a little?

...events in a suspect's life.

We've found a high incidence
of broken homes and neglected families...

Did my partner tell you
about Richard Speck?

No.

So Speck comes in,

and we see
he's got something in his hands.

- Hello?
- Hey, Holden.

News from Atlanta.

Jim. Tell me.

Another body, another strangulation.

How old?

Twelve.

Clifford Jones.

He was collecting cans for change
so his aunt could do laundry.

Broad daylight.

He's number 13.

♪ Cease to exist ♪

♪ Just come and say you love me ♪

♪ Give up your world ♪

♪ Come on, you can be ♪

♪ I'm your kind ♪

♪ Oh, your kind, and I can see ♪

♪ You walk on, walk on ♪

♪ I love you, pretty girl ♪

♪ My life is yours ♪

♪ Ah, you can have my world ♪

♪ Never had a lesson ♪

♪ I ever learned ♪

♪ But I know ♪

♪ We all get our turn ♪

♪ And I love you ♪

♪ Never learn not to love you ♪

♪ Submission is a gift ♪

♪ Go on, give it to your brother ♪

♪ Love and understandin' ♪

♪ Is for one another ♪

♪ I'm your kind ♪

♪ I'm your kind ♪

♪ I'm your brother ♪

♪ I never had a lesson ♪

♪ I ever learned ♪

♪ But I know we all get our turn ♪

♪ And I love you ♪

♪ Never learn not to love you ♪

- ♪ Never learn not to love you ♪
- ♪ Never learn not to love you ♪

♪ Never learn not to love you ♪