Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:01,543 --> 00:00:04,045
Support from viewers like you
2
00:00:01,543 --> 00:00:04,045
makes this program possible.
3
00:00:04,087 --> 00:00:06,047
Please give to your
4
00:00:04,087 --> 00:00:06,047
PBS station.
5
00:00:09,092 --> 00:00:11,595
WOMAN:
6
00:00:09,092 --> 00:00:11,595
...whether to approve or deny
7
00:00:09,092 --> 00:00:11,595
the application.
8
00:00:11,637 --> 00:00:13,931
They're the decision-makers.
9
00:00:13,973 --> 00:00:17,309
And you will receive a copy
10
00:00:13,973 --> 00:00:17,309
of my proposed recommendation
11
00:00:17,351 --> 00:00:19,019
and can attend
12
00:00:17,351 --> 00:00:19,019
that board meeting
13
00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:22,063
and present your information
14
00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:22,063
directly to them.
15
00:00:22,105 --> 00:00:23,524
With regard
16
00:00:22,105 --> 00:00:23,524
to this proceeding,
17
00:00:23,565 --> 00:00:25,776
basically,
18
00:00:23,565 --> 00:00:25,776
there are four elements
19
00:00:25,818 --> 00:00:28,779
that I have to...
20
00:00:28,821 --> 00:00:30,322
Receive information
21
00:00:28,821 --> 00:00:30,322
regarding...
22
00:00:30,364 --> 00:00:38,580
(explosion roaring)
23
00:00:38,622 --> 00:00:40,081
Everybody,
24
00:00:38,622 --> 00:00:40,081
let's get out of here.
25
00:00:40,123 --> 00:00:41,500
Now!
26
00:00:41,542 --> 00:00:43,919
Watch the electricity line!
27
00:00:43,961 --> 00:00:45,671
REPORTER:
28
00:00:43,961 --> 00:00:45,671
All that I can see,
29
00:00:45,713 --> 00:00:47,297
it looks like part
30
00:00:45,713 --> 00:00:47,297
of the building
31
00:00:47,339 --> 00:00:49,675
has been blown away.
32
00:00:49,717 --> 00:00:51,050
We'll have to bank
33
00:00:49,717 --> 00:00:51,050
around the other side
34
00:00:51,092 --> 00:00:53,178
so I can get a better view
35
00:00:51,092 --> 00:00:53,178
of it.
36
00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:55,263
The explosion, though,
37
00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:55,263
went off around 9 a.m.,
38
00:00:55,305 --> 00:00:59,059
and we could feel the explosion
39
00:00:55,305 --> 00:00:59,059
in the newsroom of Channel 9
40
00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:02,229
at least
41
00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:02,229
five miles from downtown.
42
00:01:02,270 --> 00:01:04,857
ANCHOR:
43
00:01:02,270 --> 00:01:04,857
As the chopper goes around the
44
00:01:02,270 --> 00:01:04,857
side of the Federal Building...
45
00:01:04,899 --> 00:01:05,900
REPORTER:
46
00:01:04,899 --> 00:01:05,900
Jeez, wow!
47
00:01:05,941 --> 00:01:07,442
ANCHOR:
48
00:01:05,941 --> 00:01:07,442
Look at that shot.
49
00:01:07,484 --> 00:01:09,028
It is absolutely incredible.
50
00:01:09,069 --> 00:01:11,112
The side of the Federal Building
51
00:01:09,069 --> 00:01:11,112
has been blown off.
52
00:01:11,154 --> 00:01:12,113
Jesse?
53
00:01:12,155 --> 00:01:14,324
REPORTER:
54
00:01:12,155 --> 00:01:14,324
About a third...
55
00:01:14,366 --> 00:01:17,703
About a third of the
56
00:01:14,366 --> 00:01:17,703
building has been blown away.
57
00:01:17,745 --> 00:01:19,788
This is just devastating.
58
00:02:11,256 --> 00:02:14,676
MAN:
59
00:02:11,256 --> 00:02:14,676
That morning,
60
00:02:11,256 --> 00:02:14,676
I was not in my office.
61
00:02:14,718 --> 00:02:21,308
I was at a fundraiser
62
00:02:14,718 --> 00:02:21,308
about 30 miles away.
63
00:02:21,349 --> 00:02:23,811
We had a 9:00 start,
64
00:02:23,852 --> 00:02:26,229
when all of a sudden,
65
00:02:23,852 --> 00:02:26,229
my phone went off,
66
00:02:26,271 --> 00:02:29,566
and I was told that there'd been
67
00:02:26,271 --> 00:02:29,566
some type of an explosion
68
00:02:29,608 --> 00:02:32,069
at the Murrah Building.
69
00:02:32,111 --> 00:02:33,320
The greatest fear I have
70
00:02:33,361 --> 00:02:36,907
is that we have casualties
71
00:02:33,361 --> 00:02:36,907
in the thousands.
72
00:02:36,949 --> 00:02:38,199
At any one time,
73
00:02:36,949 --> 00:02:38,199
there could be
74
00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:41,453
a couple of thousand people
75
00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:41,453
in that building.
76
00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:49,210
MAN:
77
00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:49,210
I was assigned to the Oklahoma
78
00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:49,210
City police tactical team
79
00:02:49,252 --> 00:02:51,254
at the time.
80
00:02:51,296 --> 00:02:54,215
And we immediately started
81
00:02:51,296 --> 00:02:54,215
working our way
82
00:02:54,257 --> 00:02:55,926
towards the building.
83
00:02:55,968 --> 00:02:57,218
There were several vehicles
84
00:02:57,260 --> 00:02:59,721
on the north side of the
85
00:02:57,260 --> 00:02:59,721
building in a parking lot,
86
00:02:59,763 --> 00:03:02,933
and all of them were burning.
87
00:03:02,975 --> 00:03:05,978
The black smoke
88
00:03:02,975 --> 00:03:05,978
was billowing up.
89
00:03:08,355 --> 00:03:10,649
When I walked up there,
90
00:03:08,355 --> 00:03:10,649
there was a hole in the ground
91
00:03:10,691 --> 00:03:12,901
about the size
92
00:03:10,691 --> 00:03:12,901
of a swimming pool
93
00:03:12,943 --> 00:03:14,611
that looked like about 30 feet
94
00:03:12,943 --> 00:03:14,611
in diameter
95
00:03:14,653 --> 00:03:16,155
and about seven,
96
00:03:14,653 --> 00:03:16,155
eight feet deep.
97
00:03:16,195 --> 00:03:17,698
Just a big hole in the ground.
98
00:03:17,739 --> 00:03:20,117
That's when it started
99
00:03:17,739 --> 00:03:20,117
really sinking in,
100
00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,078
this had to be
101
00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,078
some kind of bomb.
102
00:03:27,124 --> 00:03:28,416
WOMAN:
103
00:03:27,124 --> 00:03:28,416
When I first got there,
104
00:03:28,458 --> 00:03:31,378
I could see people trapped
105
00:03:28,458 --> 00:03:31,378
on different floors,
106
00:03:31,419 --> 00:03:35,049
and they needed to be rescued.
107
00:03:35,090 --> 00:03:39,344
And so I started my way
108
00:03:35,090 --> 00:03:39,344
into the building.
109
00:03:39,386 --> 00:03:40,721
I thought to myself,
110
00:03:40,762 --> 00:03:42,472
"Why Oklahoma City?
111
00:03:42,514 --> 00:03:44,183
"It's a quiet place.
112
00:03:44,224 --> 00:03:45,600
"Nothing happens here.
113
00:03:45,642 --> 00:03:49,229
It's not supposed
114
00:03:45,642 --> 00:03:49,229
to happen here."
115
00:03:51,857 --> 00:03:54,068
WOMAN:
116
00:03:51,857 --> 00:03:54,068
Yeah, we'd always had threats.
117
00:03:54,109 --> 00:03:55,569
You tell somebody,
118
00:03:55,610 --> 00:03:57,196
"I'm sorry, but," you know,
119
00:03:57,237 --> 00:03:59,406
"your claim's denied,"
120
00:03:57,237 --> 00:03:59,406
or whatever,
121
00:03:59,447 --> 00:04:04,078
and, yeah, and we'd get threats,
122
00:03:59,447 --> 00:04:04,078
but not...
123
00:04:04,119 --> 00:04:06,788
Not anything that we ever
124
00:04:04,119 --> 00:04:06,788
considered, you know, viable.
125
00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:08,373
There has been
126
00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:08,373
a massive explosion
127
00:04:08,415 --> 00:04:11,960
at a federal building
128
00:04:08,415 --> 00:04:11,960
in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
129
00:04:12,002 --> 00:04:13,294
It happened
130
00:04:12,002 --> 00:04:13,294
just a short time ago.
131
00:04:13,336 --> 00:04:15,338
A large portion of that building
132
00:04:13,336 --> 00:04:15,338
has collapsed
133
00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:17,298
and fallen away from the rest
134
00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:17,298
of the building.
135
00:04:17,340 --> 00:04:19,384
At the moment, we don't have
136
00:04:17,340 --> 00:04:19,384
any specific numbers
137
00:04:19,426 --> 00:04:21,136
on injuries or deaths,
138
00:04:21,178 --> 00:04:26,183
but we can tell you that the
139
00:04:21,178 --> 00:04:26,183
situation is obviously serious.
140
00:04:26,225 --> 00:04:29,019
WOMAN:
141
00:04:26,225 --> 00:04:29,019
I tried to put the building
142
00:04:26,225 --> 00:04:29,019
back in my mind,
143
00:04:29,061 --> 00:04:31,105
of, where would he be?
144
00:04:31,146 --> 00:04:35,692
If I have to dig for my son,
145
00:04:31,146 --> 00:04:35,692
where should I dig?
146
00:04:35,734 --> 00:04:37,360
And so, that's what I did.
147
00:04:37,402 --> 00:04:41,322
I visualized the first floor,
148
00:04:37,402 --> 00:04:41,322
the second floor,
149
00:04:41,364 --> 00:04:43,784
the childcare was here,
150
00:04:41,364 --> 00:04:43,784
his crib would be here,
151
00:04:43,825 --> 00:04:45,410
and that's where I wanted
152
00:04:43,825 --> 00:04:45,410
to get to.
153
00:04:45,452 --> 00:04:49,831
As I started to climb up
154
00:04:45,452 --> 00:04:49,831
the debris and the rubble,
155
00:04:49,873 --> 00:04:51,332
I remember a man yelling,
156
00:04:51,374 --> 00:04:53,585
"You can't go up there,
157
00:04:51,374 --> 00:04:53,585
it's too dangerous!"
158
00:04:53,627 --> 00:04:57,505
And I remember telling him,
159
00:04:53,627 --> 00:04:57,505
"Our babies are in there!
160
00:04:57,547 --> 00:05:00,175
Our babies are in there!"
161
00:05:00,217 --> 00:05:03,678
I just kept saying,
162
00:05:00,217 --> 00:05:03,678
"Our babies are in there."
163
00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:10,351
WOMAN:
164
00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:10,351
When I saw the building
165
00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:10,351
for the first time,
166
00:05:10,393 --> 00:05:13,272
I just couldn't see
167
00:05:13,354 --> 00:05:16,357
how anybody could have survived
168
00:05:13,354 --> 00:05:16,357
any of that.
169
00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:18,819
So at that point,
170
00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:18,819
I think my mind was thinking,
171
00:05:18,860 --> 00:05:20,320
"My kids are gone."
172
00:05:24,491 --> 00:05:28,328
MAN:
173
00:05:24,491 --> 00:05:28,328
I drove down there
174
00:05:24,491 --> 00:05:28,328
and met Claudia.
175
00:05:28,369 --> 00:05:30,538
We walked up to a perimeter
176
00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:32,082
and I asked a officer, I said,
177
00:05:32,124 --> 00:05:34,417
"We have two, two babies
178
00:05:32,124 --> 00:05:34,417
in the daycare center.
179
00:05:34,459 --> 00:05:36,544
Can I, can I go in?"
180
00:05:36,586 --> 00:05:38,964
OFFICER (in distance):
181
00:05:36,586 --> 00:05:38,964
Move back, move back, move back.
182
00:05:39,006 --> 00:05:40,381
Move back, move back.
183
00:05:40,423 --> 00:05:41,925
JIM DENNY:
184
00:05:40,423 --> 00:05:41,925
I could see people
185
00:05:41,967 --> 00:05:46,888
that are covered
186
00:05:41,967 --> 00:05:46,888
with blankets, towels, whatever,
187
00:05:46,930 --> 00:05:48,389
that are gone.
188
00:05:48,431 --> 00:05:51,518
And I'm praying that one of them
189
00:05:48,431 --> 00:05:51,518
is not a small child.
190
00:05:57,565 --> 00:06:00,401
MAN:
191
00:05:57,565 --> 00:06:00,401
I knew a lot of the people
192
00:05:57,565 --> 00:06:00,401
in the building.
193
00:06:00,443 --> 00:06:03,197
I knew the D.E.A. agents
194
00:06:00,443 --> 00:06:03,197
that were in the building,
195
00:06:03,238 --> 00:06:06,407
I knew the ATF agents
196
00:06:03,238 --> 00:06:06,407
that were in the building,
197
00:06:06,449 --> 00:06:10,162
and those people
198
00:06:06,449 --> 00:06:10,162
were friends of mine.
199
00:06:10,204 --> 00:06:12,413
I could not believe
200
00:06:10,204 --> 00:06:12,413
what had happened to all of them
201
00:06:12,455 --> 00:06:13,748
and how this could be.
202
00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:18,170
How could somebody get
203
00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:18,170
to that state in their life
204
00:06:18,212 --> 00:06:20,463
where they could be
205
00:06:18,212 --> 00:06:20,463
so angry and upset
206
00:06:20,505 --> 00:06:22,216
that they would do something
207
00:06:20,505 --> 00:06:22,216
like this?
208
00:06:31,432 --> 00:06:32,809
MAN:
209
00:06:31,432 --> 00:06:32,809
Who started the war?
210
00:06:32,851 --> 00:06:34,311
And who was the aggressor?
211
00:06:34,353 --> 00:06:38,357
That's how I look
212
00:06:34,353 --> 00:06:38,357
at the Murrah bombing.
213
00:06:38,397 --> 00:06:41,568
To me, it wasn't a start
214
00:06:38,397 --> 00:06:41,568
of a war,
215
00:06:41,609 --> 00:06:43,778
it was a counterattack.
216
00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,365
The war had already been
217
00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,365
started.
218
00:06:46,405 --> 00:06:47,824
You guys think
219
00:06:46,405 --> 00:06:47,824
you can be ruthless?
220
00:06:47,866 --> 00:06:50,409
Let's see how you like it
221
00:06:47,866 --> 00:06:50,409
when the...
222
00:06:50,451 --> 00:06:52,829
when the fight
223
00:06:50,451 --> 00:06:52,829
is brought to you.
224
00:06:52,871 --> 00:06:57,625
If you continue with shit
225
00:06:52,871 --> 00:06:57,625
like Ruby Ridge and Waco,
226
00:06:57,667 --> 00:06:59,627
this is what's going to happen.
227
00:07:16,103 --> 00:07:17,729
MAN:
228
00:07:16,103 --> 00:07:17,729
Northern Idaho.
229
00:07:17,771 --> 00:07:21,900
It's a remote place, it's
230
00:07:17,771 --> 00:07:21,900
a predominantly white place,
231
00:07:21,942 --> 00:07:23,777
and it's the kind of place
232
00:07:23,818 --> 00:07:28,656
where everybody sort of minds
233
00:07:23,818 --> 00:07:28,656
their own business.
234
00:07:28,698 --> 00:07:33,494
In the 1980s, a lot of extremist
235
00:07:28,698 --> 00:07:33,494
groups found a sanctuary there.
236
00:07:36,998 --> 00:07:37,958
White power!
237
00:07:37,999 --> 00:07:38,959
MAN:
238
00:07:37,999 --> 00:07:38,959
What do we need?
239
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,501
ALL:
240
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,501
White power!
241
00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755
MAN:
242
00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755
One of those groups
243
00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755
was the Aryan Nations.
244
00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512
MAN:
245
00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512
The Aryan Nations had
246
00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512
established itself
247
00:07:51,554 --> 00:07:55,892
in Hayden Lake as a sort
248
00:07:51,554 --> 00:07:55,892
of headquarters of hate,
249
00:07:55,934 --> 00:07:59,520
radical right-wing hate.
250
00:07:59,562 --> 00:08:01,856
MAN:
251
00:07:59,562 --> 00:08:01,856
We the white race lost the war.
252
00:08:01,898 --> 00:08:05,526
A plague known as Jews
253
00:08:01,898 --> 00:08:05,526
won the war,
254
00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:07,988
infiltrated our bloodstream
255
00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:07,988
of our race
256
00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:11,158
in every country
257
00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:11,158
in which we reside.
258
00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871
MAN:
259
00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871
Richard Butler, like many
260
00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871
far-right people at the time,
261
00:08:16,913 --> 00:08:21,126
held that the federal government
262
00:08:16,913 --> 00:08:21,126
was in the hands of the Jews.
263
00:08:21,168 --> 00:08:25,630
And the only way to save America
264
00:08:25,672 --> 00:08:29,509
was to assert
265
00:08:25,672 --> 00:08:29,509
your Christian sovereignty,
266
00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,804
your white Christian
267
00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,804
sovereignty.
268
00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557
BUTLER:
269
00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557
Every major city in the United
270
00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557
States is now non-white,
271
00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:41,562
following the catastrophic
272
00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:41,562
destruction of our race
273
00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:45,566
in the so-called Civil War,
274
00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:45,566
or the War Between the States.
275
00:08:45,608 --> 00:08:51,198
America shall again become
276
00:08:45,608 --> 00:08:51,198
white and Christian.
277
00:08:51,239 --> 00:08:55,410
There'll be a lot of blood
278
00:08:51,239 --> 00:08:55,410
running one day.
279
00:08:55,452 --> 00:08:59,164
I don't advocate it,
280
00:08:55,452 --> 00:08:59,164
I don't want it.
281
00:08:59,206 --> 00:09:00,581
But it's going to come
282
00:09:00,623 --> 00:09:06,129
as sure as day follows night
283
00:09:00,623 --> 00:09:06,129
and night follows day.
284
00:09:06,171 --> 00:09:08,840
MAN:
285
00:09:06,171 --> 00:09:08,840
In the 1980s, in America,
286
00:09:08,882 --> 00:09:12,593
the white race was becoming
287
00:09:08,882 --> 00:09:12,593
the minority race.
288
00:09:12,635 --> 00:09:15,596
Racist groups used that
289
00:09:12,635 --> 00:09:15,596
as a calling card.
290
00:09:15,638 --> 00:09:17,598
"Come join us,
291
00:09:15,638 --> 00:09:17,598
because the white race
292
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:18,933
is going to be driven
293
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:18,933
to extinction."
294
00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565
MAN:
295
00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565
The Aryan Nations
296
00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565
attracted people
297
00:09:25,606 --> 00:09:29,652
from all walks of life
298
00:09:25,606 --> 00:09:29,652
who were, who were white,
299
00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:36,034
all of them looking for someone
300
00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:36,034
to blame for the situation.
301
00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:39,996
And they focused their anger
302
00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:39,996
on the federal government.
303
00:09:40,038 --> 00:09:44,625
People like Robert Mathews.
304
00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045
MORLIN:
305
00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045
Robert Mathews showed up
306
00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045
at the Aryan Nations
307
00:09:47,087 --> 00:09:49,423
in the early 1980s.
308
00:09:49,464 --> 00:09:53,552
And there, he met
309
00:09:49,464 --> 00:09:53,552
other young men like him,
310
00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:55,803
who thought
311
00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:55,803
that it was just talk.
312
00:09:55,845 --> 00:09:57,347
It was no action.
313
00:09:57,389 --> 00:09:59,849
Bob Mathews said,
314
00:09:57,389 --> 00:09:59,849
"The time has come for action."
315
00:09:59,891 --> 00:10:02,310
You Jews get the heck
316
00:09:59,891 --> 00:10:02,310
out of here!
317
00:10:02,352 --> 00:10:04,645
I didn't come all the way
318
00:10:02,352 --> 00:10:04,645
down here to hear you!
319
00:10:04,687 --> 00:10:05,688
Go over there!
320
00:10:05,730 --> 00:10:08,358
...the words of Jesus Christ...
321
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319
MAN:
322
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319
Bob Mathews wanted to start
323
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319
a revolution.
324
00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:12,737
He saw the United States
325
00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:12,737
government
326
00:10:12,779 --> 00:10:17,951
as a complete and utter enemy,
327
00:10:12,779 --> 00:10:17,951
run by Satanic Jews,
328
00:10:17,992 --> 00:10:22,497
that had to be destroyed.
329
00:10:22,539 --> 00:10:25,333
MORLIN:
330
00:10:22,539 --> 00:10:25,333
He had 12 or so other followers,
331
00:10:25,375 --> 00:10:28,253
most of whom he had met
332
00:10:25,375 --> 00:10:28,253
at the Aryan Nations,
333
00:10:28,295 --> 00:10:29,670
and they decided
334
00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:33,341
that they would basically
335
00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:33,341
declare war on the U.S.
336
00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848
MAN:
337
00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848
As Bob Mathews was formulating
338
00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848
a plan for his organization,
339
00:10:40,890 --> 00:10:44,685
he discovered a book
340
00:10:40,890 --> 00:10:44,685
called The Turner Diaries,
341
00:10:44,727 --> 00:10:48,689
written by a racist
342
00:10:44,727 --> 00:10:48,689
named William Pierce.
343
00:10:48,731 --> 00:10:54,695
It was a fictional account
344
00:10:48,731 --> 00:10:54,695
of a group of patriots
345
00:10:54,737 --> 00:10:57,282
that came together
346
00:10:54,737 --> 00:10:57,282
in a very small number,
347
00:10:57,324 --> 00:10:59,576
much like what Bob was planning
348
00:10:57,324 --> 00:10:59,576
to do,
349
00:10:59,618 --> 00:11:01,702
and overthrow
350
00:10:59,618 --> 00:11:01,702
the United States government.
351
00:11:01,744 --> 00:11:07,708
And as Bob read this,
352
00:11:01,744 --> 00:11:07,708
he thought, "This is us.
353
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:10,711
This is the plan
354
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:10,711
we need to follow."
355
00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048
MAN:
356
00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048
"Unit 8 will secure a large
357
00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048
quantity of explosives,
358
00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:16,050
"between five and ten tons.
359
00:11:16,092 --> 00:11:17,594
"We will then drive
360
00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:20,388
"into the FBI building's
361
00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:20,388
freight receiving area,
362
00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:22,765
set the fuse,
363
00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:22,765
and leave the truck."
364
00:11:22,807 --> 00:11:26,561
POTOK:
365
00:11:22,807 --> 00:11:26,561
The Turner Diaries culminates
366
00:11:26,603 --> 00:11:28,771
with these anti-government
367
00:11:26,603 --> 00:11:28,771
resisters
368
00:11:28,813 --> 00:11:34,277
blowing up the FBI headquarters
369
00:11:28,813 --> 00:11:34,277
in Washington, D.C.
370
00:11:34,319 --> 00:11:37,738
It had this electrifying,
371
00:11:34,319 --> 00:11:37,738
energizing effect
372
00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:39,698
on all kinds of people
373
00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:39,698
on the radical right.
374
00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755
MAN:
375
00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755
The Order is a small group,
376
00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755
but a very formidable group,
377
00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:58,009
and they start robbing banks,
378
00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:58,009
armored cars,
379
00:11:58,051 --> 00:11:59,594
kill whoever they had to kill.
380
00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:00,719
They didn't care.
381
00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813
MANIS:
382
00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813
Their expertise grew
383
00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813
week by week and month by month.
384
00:12:10,855 --> 00:12:16,236
This was an organization
385
00:12:10,855 --> 00:12:16,236
that had taken real form
386
00:12:16,277 --> 00:12:19,738
and had real leadership
387
00:12:16,277 --> 00:12:19,738
and direction.
388
00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:24,785
And then they formed
389
00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:24,785
an assassination squad
390
00:12:24,827 --> 00:12:26,204
to go to Denver.
391
00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873
RADIO ANNOUNCER:
392
00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873
You're listening to Alan Berg
393
00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873
on KOA.
394
00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:29,874
You never shut up!
395
00:12:29,916 --> 00:12:31,167
I got fed up with you!
396
00:12:31,209 --> 00:12:33,836
You never let me get a word
397
00:12:31,209 --> 00:12:33,836
edgewise-- get out of here!
398
00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091
POTOK:
399
00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091
The Jewish talk show host
400
00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091
Alan Berg
401
00:12:38,132 --> 00:12:40,552
had angered the radical right
402
00:12:40,594 --> 00:12:43,054
by essentially mocking them
403
00:12:40,594 --> 00:12:43,054
on his radio show.
404
00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:44,847
If you're not a Christian,
405
00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:44,847
you're un-American.
406
00:12:44,889 --> 00:12:46,391
Is that your point, sir?
407
00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808
MAN:
408
00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808
That's right!
409
00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808
Good point, sir!
410
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229
NOBLE:
411
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229
He spoke out
412
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229
against the right wing
413
00:12:51,271 --> 00:12:53,607
and the Christian Patriot
414
00:12:51,271 --> 00:12:53,607
movement,
415
00:12:53,648 --> 00:12:56,901
yeah, and members
416
00:12:53,648 --> 00:12:56,901
of The Order got fed up.
417
00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410
LEVITAS:
418
00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410
Alan Berg was shot to death
419
00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410
in the driveway of his home.
420
00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:07,704
It was essentially
421
00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:07,704
domestic terrorism.
422
00:13:07,746 --> 00:13:13,792
It was born-and-bred Americans
423
00:13:07,746 --> 00:13:13,792
inspired by racism,
424
00:13:13,834 --> 00:13:19,840
anti-Semitism,
425
00:13:13,834 --> 00:13:19,840
and anti-government ideology.
426
00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845
MANIS:
427
00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845
The FBI really didn't know
428
00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845
who these individuals were.
429
00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:27,599
But a great break happened
430
00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:27,599
for us
431
00:13:27,641 --> 00:13:30,226
when Bob Mathews decided
432
00:13:27,641 --> 00:13:30,226
they're going to take down
433
00:13:30,268 --> 00:13:31,810
a Brinks truck that's carrying
434
00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:35,315
multiples of millions
435
00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:35,315
of dollars.
436
00:13:35,356 --> 00:13:36,857
So they do.
437
00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:42,196
A very brazen daylight robbery
438
00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:42,196
right out on a highway.
439
00:13:42,238 --> 00:13:43,864
They take this thing down.
440
00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,867
Bob Mathews is in there,
441
00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,867
he's clearing out money,
442
00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:50,330
and his pistol falls out
443
00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:50,330
of his waistband.
444
00:13:50,371 --> 00:13:52,666
And we get that pistol.
445
00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511
MORLIN:
446
00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511
They convince some members
447
00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511
of The Order to surrender.
448
00:14:04,552 --> 00:14:08,264
But Mathews wouldn't surrender.
449
00:14:08,306 --> 00:14:10,891
And after a two-
450
00:14:08,306 --> 00:14:10,891
or three-day standoff,
451
00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:15,146
the FBI moves in on the cabin
452
00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:15,146
and a gunfight occurs.
453
00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526
MANIS:
454
00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526
I'm just a little ways
455
00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526
from the house,
456
00:14:19,567 --> 00:14:20,943
and the bullets are hitting
457
00:14:20,985 --> 00:14:24,280
right at the trees
458
00:14:20,985 --> 00:14:24,280
and the brush line where I'm at.
459
00:14:24,322 --> 00:14:25,865
You know, he's got plenty
460
00:14:24,322 --> 00:14:25,865
of weapons,
461
00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:27,950
he's got thousands of rounds
462
00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:27,950
of ammunition.
463
00:14:27,992 --> 00:14:32,913
He was committed.
464
00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500
MAN:
465
00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500
The next evening,
466
00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500
it was starting to get dark,
467
00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:37,669
so we put in
468
00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:37,669
some illumination rounds,
469
00:14:37,711 --> 00:14:40,087
and those rounds,
470
00:14:37,711 --> 00:14:40,087
one of them or so, caught fire,
471
00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:41,255
and the building started
472
00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:41,255
to burn.
473
00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677
MANIS:
474
00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677
And then it was
475
00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677
like firecrackers,
476
00:14:45,719 --> 00:14:48,929
just pop, pop, pop, pop, pop,
477
00:14:45,719 --> 00:14:48,929
going off everywhere,
478
00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:53,100
with the cooking-off
479
00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:53,100
of the rounds.
480
00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:57,104
At daybreak, I walked up
481
00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:57,104
to the remains of the house
482
00:14:57,146 --> 00:15:01,651
and saw a charred body there.
483
00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529
NOBLE:
484
00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529
Mathews' death forced
485
00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529
the movement, everybody,
486
00:15:04,571 --> 00:15:05,946
to look at themselves:
487
00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:09,743
"Am I really ready and willing
488
00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:09,743
to die for the cause?"
489
00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:16,957
MANIS:
490
00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:16,957
The FBI was on high alert.
491
00:15:16,999 --> 00:15:22,797
I mean, domestic terrorism now
492
00:15:16,999 --> 00:15:22,797
was top order.
493
00:15:22,839 --> 00:15:26,300
And there was a massive amount
494
00:15:22,839 --> 00:15:26,300
of investigation and arrests
495
00:15:26,342 --> 00:15:30,263
throughout the United States.
496
00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:32,640
MORLIN:
497
00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:32,640
By the mid-'80s,
498
00:15:32,682 --> 00:15:35,810
the federal agencies had
499
00:15:32,682 --> 00:15:35,810
the lesson of The Order,
500
00:15:35,852 --> 00:15:36,977
so they knew some of the folks
501
00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:38,772
that had come out
502
00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:38,772
of the Aryan Nations
503
00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:40,189
were doing bad things--
504
00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:40,189
they were committing crimes,
505
00:15:40,231 --> 00:15:41,691
they were killing people.
506
00:15:41,733 --> 00:15:44,819
So the Feds were interested in,
507
00:15:41,733 --> 00:15:44,819
who's there,
508
00:15:44,861 --> 00:15:46,070
and what are they doing,
509
00:15:46,112 --> 00:15:47,947
and what are they planning
510
00:15:46,112 --> 00:15:47,947
on doing next?
511
00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378
LEVITAS:
512
00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378
Randy Weaver was a person
513
00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378
with white separatist beliefs
514
00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:07,007
who moved his family from Iowa
515
00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:07,007
to Boundary County, Idaho,
516
00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:11,512
to a place called Ruby Ridge.
517
00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642
MORLIN:
518
00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642
They were 50 miles or so
519
00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642
from the Canadian border.
520
00:16:15,683 --> 00:16:16,810
They had no electricity,
521
00:16:16,851 --> 00:16:18,686
no running water,
522
00:16:16,851 --> 00:16:18,686
no indoor plumbing.
523
00:16:18,728 --> 00:16:20,020
We're talking about a cabin
524
00:16:20,062 --> 00:16:23,399
made by Randy Weaver
525
00:16:20,062 --> 00:16:23,399
and his wife
526
00:16:23,441 --> 00:16:26,110
on a mountaintop.
527
00:16:26,152 --> 00:16:29,155
These are people that want
528
00:16:26,152 --> 00:16:29,155
to be left alone.
529
00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369
WALTER:
530
00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369
The Weavers were deeply
531
00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369
religious
532
00:16:35,411 --> 00:16:37,163
and they wanted to live
533
00:16:35,411 --> 00:16:37,163
in a style
534
00:16:37,204 --> 00:16:41,793
they believed
535
00:16:37,204 --> 00:16:41,793
was Old Testament Christian.
536
00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:43,795
They were really imagining
537
00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:43,795
this fortress,
538
00:16:43,837 --> 00:16:47,465
this place where they could
539
00:16:43,837 --> 00:16:47,465
really separate themselves
540
00:16:47,507 --> 00:16:51,093
from a corrupt
541
00:16:47,507 --> 00:16:51,093
and dangerous world.
542
00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182
MAN:
543
00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182
I don't know
544
00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182
that Randy Weaver knew
545
00:16:56,223 --> 00:16:59,059
at the time that they moved
546
00:16:56,223 --> 00:16:59,059
to Ruby Ridge
547
00:16:59,101 --> 00:17:03,397
that they would be so close
548
00:16:59,101 --> 00:17:03,397
to the Aryan Nations compound,
549
00:17:03,439 --> 00:17:07,151
which was just 60 miles south.
550
00:17:07,193 --> 00:17:10,446
But they started showing up.
551
00:17:10,488 --> 00:17:12,072
At first, it was purely social.
552
00:17:12,114 --> 00:17:15,869
They attended family picnics,
553
00:17:12,114 --> 00:17:15,869
those kinds of things.
554
00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:18,454
But as Randy began
555
00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:18,454
to interact more with them,
556
00:17:18,496 --> 00:17:22,082
he bought into the message,
557
00:17:18,496 --> 00:17:22,082
the anti-government message.
558
00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586
BUTLER:
559
00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586
A movement is growing
560
00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586
all over the world.
561
00:17:25,628 --> 00:17:28,130
Good men are coming forth,
562
00:17:28,172 --> 00:17:31,384
men with iron wills
563
00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:34,679
who are determined that their
564
00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:34,679
race is not going to die
565
00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:36,055
and become extinct.
566
00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687
MORLIN:
567
00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687
By the time Randy Weaver started
568
00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687
showing up at the Aryan Nations,
569
00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:45,147
it was just after
570
00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:45,147
the whole Matthews episode.
571
00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:48,776
And, unfortunately
572
00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:48,776
for Randy Weaver,
573
00:17:48,818 --> 00:17:50,820
the Feds were listening.
574
00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:53,865
LEVITAS:
575
00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:53,865
They had lots of events there
576
00:17:53,907 --> 00:17:57,284
designed to potentially recruit
577
00:17:53,907 --> 00:17:57,284
harder-core folks
578
00:17:57,326 --> 00:17:59,495
into the compound,
579
00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:02,122
and it was at one
580
00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:02,122
of those meetings
581
00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:07,378
that Randy Weaver was spotted by
582
00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:07,378
an undercover federal informant.
583
00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049
MORLIN:
584
00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049
This guy got next
585
00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049
to Randy Weaver
586
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:13,968
and learned that he was,
587
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:13,968
you know, clearly a racist,
588
00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:15,887
that he wanted to live
589
00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:15,887
his white separatist lifestyle
590
00:18:15,929 --> 00:18:17,471
in North Idaho,
591
00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:21,225
but that he was having trouble
592
00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:21,225
putting two nickels together,
593
00:18:21,267 --> 00:18:23,770
and that he was interested
594
00:18:21,267 --> 00:18:23,770
in some income.
595
00:18:23,811 --> 00:18:25,312
And one thing led to another,
596
00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:28,399
and pretty soon, Randy Weaver
597
00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:28,399
agrees to saw off some shotguns.
598
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907
NOBLE:
599
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907
In my opinion, the ATF pretty
600
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907
much entrapped him
601
00:18:35,949 --> 00:18:38,117
into making these shotguns
602
00:18:35,949 --> 00:18:38,117
illegal
603
00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:40,411
by cutting off
604
00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:40,411
too much of the barrel,
605
00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:44,164
and then comes out and wants
606
00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:44,164
to arrest him over it.
607
00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167
MORLIN:
608
00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167
They figured,
609
00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167
"If we arrest this guy
610
00:18:47,209 --> 00:18:49,128
"on federal firearms charges,
611
00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:50,797
"maybe he can lead us
612
00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:50,797
to other people
613
00:18:50,838 --> 00:18:52,298
that are doing
614
00:18:50,838 --> 00:18:52,298
more dastardly things."
615
00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:57,428
They did think Randy Weaver
616
00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:57,428
could be flipped.
617
00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180
BOTTING:
618
00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180
So they asked him to be
619
00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180
an informant,
620
00:19:00,222 --> 00:19:03,225
which he immediately refused.
621
00:19:03,267 --> 00:19:05,728
Randy Weaver didn't trust
622
00:19:03,267 --> 00:19:05,728
the government
623
00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:07,187
and was absolutely
624
00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:07,187
not interested
625
00:19:07,229 --> 00:19:09,107
in being an informant.
626
00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:12,443
However, he failed to appear
627
00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:12,443
for his next court appearance.
628
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196
WALTER:
629
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196
Once you don't show up
630
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196
for trial,
631
00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:19,867
the case is assigned
632
00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:19,867
to the U.S. Marshals Service.
633
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:21,702
And the U.S. Marshals Service
634
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:21,702
doesn't know
635
00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:23,830
whether or not
636
00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:23,830
Randy Weaver was entrapped
637
00:19:23,871 --> 00:19:25,873
or how those shotguns
638
00:19:23,871 --> 00:19:25,873
came about.
639
00:19:25,915 --> 00:19:28,542
They just know
640
00:19:25,915 --> 00:19:28,542
they have a fugitive.
641
00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342
BOTTING:
642
00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342
The marshals brought in
643
00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342
their special surveillance team
644
00:19:36,383 --> 00:19:39,553
and they kind of
645
00:19:36,383 --> 00:19:39,553
skunked around the property
646
00:19:39,595 --> 00:19:40,930
trying to find a location
647
00:19:40,972 --> 00:19:42,473
to take him into custody
648
00:19:40,972 --> 00:19:42,473
without a problem.
649
00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311
MAN:
650
00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311
Well, this is the approach
651
00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311
from the east.
652
00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981
MORLIN:
653
00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981
One of the things
654
00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981
that they decided to do
655
00:19:50,023 --> 00:19:52,025
was to have motion-activated
656
00:19:50,023 --> 00:19:52,025
cameras
657
00:19:52,066 --> 00:19:54,027
placed near the Weaver cabin.
658
00:19:54,068 --> 00:19:57,404
The tapes showed
659
00:19:54,068 --> 00:19:57,404
that Randy Weaver was there
660
00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:01,575
with his wife and his children
661
00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:01,575
and a man named Kevin Harris,
662
00:20:01,617 --> 00:20:04,912
and that they frequently
663
00:20:01,617 --> 00:20:04,912
were armed.
664
00:20:04,954 --> 00:20:06,706
They have to have been
665
00:20:04,954 --> 00:20:06,706
shaking their heads.
666
00:20:06,747 --> 00:20:08,248
"What are we going to do?
667
00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:09,792
"We go up there,
668
00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:09,792
and he's going to shoot at us,
669
00:20:09,834 --> 00:20:11,044
and we're going to shoot back."
670
00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,549
BOTTING:
671
00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,549
On the day of the shooting,
672
00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:19,468
the marshals had a six-man team
673
00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:19,468
they divided into two elements,
674
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:22,596
and one element of three went up
675
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:22,596
on the mountain
676
00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:26,266
to have a visual on the cabin
677
00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:26,266
itself.
678
00:20:26,308 --> 00:20:31,022
The other element was on the
679
00:20:26,308 --> 00:20:31,022
ground, closer to the cabin,
680
00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:33,566
when the Weavers' dog caught
681
00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:33,566
the scent of the marshals
682
00:20:33,607 --> 00:20:36,235
and went after them.
683
00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:41,949
All we know at that point was,
684
00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:41,949
there was a shootout.
685
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788
MORLIN:
686
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788
Who shot who first
687
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788
is still subject
688
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:49,707
to, you know, interpretation,
689
00:20:49,749 --> 00:20:51,834
but when it was all said
690
00:20:49,749 --> 00:20:51,834
and done,
691
00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,796
14-year-old Sammy Weaver's dead,
692
00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,796
the dog's dead,
693
00:20:55,838 --> 00:20:58,298
and so is Federal Marshal
694
00:20:55,838 --> 00:20:58,298
William Degan,
695
00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:02,636
killed on the property
696
00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:02,636
of a white separatist.
697
00:21:02,678 --> 00:21:04,346
The FBI had every reason
698
00:21:02,678 --> 00:21:04,346
to think,
699
00:21:04,388 --> 00:21:06,224
when they're dealing
700
00:21:04,388 --> 00:21:06,224
with Randy Weaver,
701
00:21:06,265 --> 00:21:08,267
they could be dealing
702
00:21:06,265 --> 00:21:08,267
with another Bob Mathews.
703
00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689
WALTER:
704
00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689
Because they believe that they
705
00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689
are deploying into a firefight
706
00:21:13,731 --> 00:21:15,649
with a group
707
00:21:13,731 --> 00:21:15,649
of armed separatists
708
00:21:15,691 --> 00:21:18,318
very much like The Order,
709
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,863
the rationale is given
710
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,863
that a surrender warning
711
00:21:20,905 --> 00:21:22,240
doesn't need to be called out,
712
00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:23,824
that that warning
713
00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:23,824
has already been given,
714
00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:30,790
so agents can open fire as soon
715
00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:30,790
as they see any armed adult.
716
00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:36,003
Well, the Weavers
717
00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:36,003
are always armed.
718
00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259
BOTTING:
719
00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259
I got there and there were
720
00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259
trucks and jeeps
721
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,594
and all kinds of vehicles,
722
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,594
you know,
723
00:21:43,636 --> 00:21:48,141
even armored personnel carriers.
724
00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,310
It was just overwhelming
725
00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,310
how much was happening
726
00:21:51,351 --> 00:21:52,645
and how many people
727
00:21:51,351 --> 00:21:52,645
were involved.
728
00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:00,194
MORLIN:
729
00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:00,194
Where we were,
730
00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,362
at the roadblock,
731
00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,362
it was out of view
732
00:22:02,404 --> 00:22:06,617
of where this base operation
733
00:22:02,404 --> 00:22:06,617
was occurring.
734
00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:08,368
But there were, you know,
735
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:10,746
an assortment
736
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:10,746
of law enforcement people
737
00:22:10,788 --> 00:22:14,208
going across this little bridge.
738
00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:17,211
Neighbors and friends
739
00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:17,211
of Randy Weaver
740
00:22:17,253 --> 00:22:19,630
and reporters
741
00:22:17,253 --> 00:22:19,630
from all over the country
742
00:22:19,672 --> 00:22:22,883
started gathering there,
743
00:22:19,672 --> 00:22:22,883
trying to get information.
744
00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:25,094
If we can tell you something,
745
00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:25,094
we will,
746
00:22:25,136 --> 00:22:26,971
but most of it will all come out
747
00:22:25,136 --> 00:22:26,971
of Washington, D.C.
748
00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098
MORLIN:
749
00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098
We were down
750
00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098
a good two miles or so
751
00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:31,100
from where the actual cabin was.
752
00:22:31,142 --> 00:22:36,647
So we had no clue
753
00:22:31,142 --> 00:22:36,647
as to what the FBI had in mind.
754
00:22:40,985 --> 00:22:43,403
WALTER:
755
00:22:40,985 --> 00:22:43,403
As morning dawns on Ruby Ridge,
756
00:22:43,445 --> 00:22:46,740
a team of ten FBI agents
757
00:22:43,445 --> 00:22:46,740
surround the cabin.
758
00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:50,410
These are snipers who've been
759
00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:50,410
trained to, you know,
760
00:22:50,452 --> 00:22:53,080
to hit a dime from 200 meters.
761
00:22:55,457 --> 00:22:58,794
Randy Weaver, Kevin Harris,
762
00:22:55,457 --> 00:22:58,794
and Sara Weaver
763
00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,340
decide they're going to go out
764
00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,340
and check on Sam Weaver's body.
765
00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:05,134
They make their way out
766
00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:05,134
with their weapons to the shed
767
00:23:05,176 --> 00:23:07,720
where Samuel has been taken
768
00:23:05,176 --> 00:23:07,720
by the family,
769
00:23:07,761 --> 00:23:11,598
when a shot rings out.
770
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,809
Randy is hit in the shoulder.
771
00:23:13,851 --> 00:23:20,440
They run back to the house
772
00:23:13,851 --> 00:23:20,440
and another shot rings out.
773
00:23:20,482 --> 00:23:25,403
This shot goes through the door,
774
00:23:20,482 --> 00:23:25,403
hits Vicki Weaver in the face,
775
00:23:25,445 --> 00:23:28,282
splinters,
776
00:23:25,445 --> 00:23:28,282
and wounds Kevin Harris,
777
00:23:28,324 --> 00:23:30,617
and drops Vicki dead
778
00:23:28,324 --> 00:23:30,617
to the floor.
779
00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458
MORLIN:
780
00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458
When word came down that Sammy
781
00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458
and Vicki Weaver were dead,
782
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:40,460
the crowd at the roadblock,
783
00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,923
which numbered 50, to 100,
784
00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,923
to 200 on occasion,
785
00:23:43,964 --> 00:23:44,840
went crazy.
786
00:23:44,882 --> 00:23:48,219
(protesters yelling)
787
00:23:48,261 --> 00:23:50,012
MAN:
788
00:23:48,261 --> 00:23:50,012
You call yourself an American?
789
00:23:50,054 --> 00:23:52,181
These are Americans!
790
00:23:52,223 --> 00:23:54,141
These are God-fearing people!
791
00:23:54,183 --> 00:23:55,559
You don't even know
792
00:23:54,183 --> 00:23:55,559
your Constitution.
793
00:23:55,601 --> 00:23:58,478
Go back and read
794
00:23:55,601 --> 00:23:58,478
what your founding fathers said.
795
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566
POTOK:
796
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566
The events at Ruby Ridge lit up
797
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566
the radical right.
798
00:24:02,608 --> 00:24:06,153
Here was a government that would
799
00:24:02,608 --> 00:24:06,153
murder men, women, and children
800
00:24:06,195 --> 00:24:09,323
in order to pursue whatever
801
00:24:06,195 --> 00:24:09,323
their ends were.
802
00:24:09,365 --> 00:24:10,741
Baby killers!
803
00:24:09,365 --> 00:24:10,741
Baby killers!
804
00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495
POTOK:
805
00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495
The roadblock became
806
00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495
a gathering point
807
00:24:15,537 --> 00:24:18,874
for skinheads,
808
00:24:15,537 --> 00:24:18,874
for Aryan Nations members,
809
00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:20,876
for all kinds of people,
810
00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:20,876
you know,
811
00:24:20,918 --> 00:24:22,502
furiously shaking their fists
812
00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:25,172
at the Zionist-occupied
813
00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:25,172
government.
814
00:24:25,214 --> 00:24:27,216
You're a disgrace
815
00:24:25,214 --> 00:24:27,216
to the white race!
816
00:24:27,258 --> 00:24:29,302
MAN:
817
00:24:27,258 --> 00:24:29,302
Disgrace to the race!
818
00:24:29,343 --> 00:24:31,971
This was the first time
819
00:24:29,343 --> 00:24:31,971
the movement had gathered
820
00:24:32,012 --> 00:24:33,513
in such a fashion,
821
00:24:33,555 --> 00:24:37,268
this publicly.
822
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,520
It became a political event
823
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,520
of its own.
824
00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:45,525
These were people who saw
825
00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:45,525
themselves in Randy Weaver.
826
00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:00,540
You look at what happened
827
00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:02,751
and how many times it could have
828
00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:02,751
been averted and avoided.
829
00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:07,256
The idea that the far right had
830
00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:07,256
at that moment
831
00:25:07,298 --> 00:25:10,384
that the government was
832
00:25:07,298 --> 00:25:10,384
a very dangerous entity,
833
00:25:10,426 --> 00:25:14,554
this case would seem to prove it
834
00:25:10,426 --> 00:25:14,554
as completely as possible.
835
00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517
MAN:
836
00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517
Mr. Weaver, do you have anything
837
00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517
to say?
838
00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609
ZESKIND:
839
00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609
Ruby Ridge, more even than
840
00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609
Robert Mathews and The Order,
841
00:25:27,651 --> 00:25:32,572
became a central calling card
842
00:25:27,651 --> 00:25:32,572
and rallying card
843
00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:34,532
for the far right.
844
00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:39,246
For them, the government
845
00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:39,246
was after Weaver's guns
846
00:25:39,288 --> 00:25:41,623
and his religion.
847
00:25:41,665 --> 00:25:45,336
And guns and religion became
848
00:25:41,665 --> 00:25:45,336
the twin pillars
849
00:25:45,378 --> 00:25:48,839
of the white supremacist
850
00:25:45,378 --> 00:25:48,839
movement.
851
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095
MORLIN:
852
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095
In late summer, 1992,
853
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095
after Ruby Ridge,
854
00:25:55,137 --> 00:25:58,057
several members
855
00:25:55,137 --> 00:25:58,057
of the extremist movement
856
00:25:58,098 --> 00:26:00,600
saw that as an opportune moment
857
00:26:00,642 --> 00:26:02,560
to sort of gather everybody
858
00:26:00,642 --> 00:26:02,560
together
859
00:26:02,602 --> 00:26:04,021
and, "Let's raise hell
860
00:26:02,602 --> 00:26:04,021
about this."
861
00:26:04,063 --> 00:26:09,026
One race, one folk, one nation,
862
00:26:04,063 --> 00:26:09,026
one people, one homeland!
863
00:26:09,068 --> 00:26:10,736
We're going to have it!
864
00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614
LEVITAS:
865
00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614
Louis Beam, former grand dragon
866
00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614
of the Ku Klux Klan, said,
867
00:26:14,656 --> 00:26:19,412
now is the time for you
868
00:26:14,656 --> 00:26:19,412
as an individual
869
00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:24,624
to commit overt acts
870
00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:24,624
of anti-government violence.
871
00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:27,836
Essentially,
872
00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:27,836
anybody representative
873
00:26:27,878 --> 00:26:29,629
of government or law enforcement
874
00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:34,968
was a fair and reasonable
875
00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:34,968
target.
876
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139
NOBLE:
877
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139
The government is an enemy
878
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139
of the people.
879
00:26:39,181 --> 00:26:42,142
And in this war,
880
00:26:42,184 --> 00:26:44,644
it's an, it's an all-or-nothing,
881
00:26:42,184 --> 00:26:44,644
you know.
882
00:26:44,686 --> 00:26:48,482
We're either going to win
883
00:26:44,686 --> 00:26:48,482
as the white race
884
00:26:48,524 --> 00:26:51,777
or we're going to lose.
885
00:26:58,534 --> 00:26:59,952
MAN (on radio):
886
00:26:58,534 --> 00:26:59,952
602 to Operations.
887
00:26:59,993 --> 00:27:02,162
The water is shut off
888
00:26:59,993 --> 00:27:02,162
to the federal building.
889
00:27:02,204 --> 00:27:04,290
At this time,
890
00:27:02,204 --> 00:27:04,290
the water is shut off.
891
00:27:04,331 --> 00:27:07,418
(sirens blaring)
892
00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169
MAN:
893
00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169
Probably about 10:00
894
00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169
in the morning,
895
00:27:09,211 --> 00:27:11,671
I got a call at the hospital.
896
00:27:11,713 --> 00:27:13,507
There's a lady who's trapped,
897
00:27:13,549 --> 00:27:15,593
and the only way
898
00:27:13,549 --> 00:27:15,593
that we're going to be able
899
00:27:15,633 --> 00:27:16,760
to extricate her
900
00:27:15,633 --> 00:27:16,760
and save her life
901
00:27:16,802 --> 00:27:18,387
is to amputate her leg.
902
00:27:18,429 --> 00:27:24,435
So I got an amputation set,
903
00:27:18,429 --> 00:27:24,435
I got some nylon rope,
904
00:27:24,477 --> 00:27:27,313
and away I went.
905
00:27:27,354 --> 00:27:31,775
When I got to the building,
906
00:27:27,354 --> 00:27:31,775
it was surreal.
907
00:27:34,445 --> 00:27:37,531
There were a lot
908
00:27:34,445 --> 00:27:37,531
of first responders there
909
00:27:37,573 --> 00:27:39,783
who had pretty well
910
00:27:37,573 --> 00:27:39,783
set things up
911
00:27:39,825 --> 00:27:45,038
so they could take somebody away
912
00:27:39,825 --> 00:27:45,038
the minute that they found them.
913
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,417
And then I was led
914
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,417
into the basement.
915
00:27:50,752 --> 00:27:52,712
FLOWERS:
916
00:27:50,752 --> 00:27:52,712
We could hear people screaming.
917
00:27:52,754 --> 00:27:54,714
We could hear them screaming,
918
00:27:52,754 --> 00:27:54,714
we could hear them crying.
919
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:58,636
You just couldn't see them
920
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:58,636
because it was so dark.
921
00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:00,720
When they fired up these lights,
922
00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:04,141
you could see the floors
923
00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:04,141
had fallen on top of each other
924
00:28:04,183 --> 00:28:10,314
and created, like, a dungeon
925
00:28:04,183 --> 00:28:10,314
underneath the Murrah Building.
926
00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:12,941
Everywhere you look
927
00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:12,941
in this floor
928
00:28:12,983 --> 00:28:14,692
that you could see,
929
00:28:14,734 --> 00:28:18,405
there were these round circles
930
00:28:14,734 --> 00:28:18,405
of coagulated blood
931
00:28:18,447 --> 00:28:21,033
that were coming
932
00:28:18,447 --> 00:28:21,033
through the cracks of the floor.
933
00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:24,744
These circles were three
934
00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:24,744
and four feet in diameter,
935
00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:27,747
and they're everywhere,
936
00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:27,747
seemed like everywhere,
937
00:28:27,789 --> 00:28:30,834
and you knew that that was
938
00:28:27,789 --> 00:28:30,834
a person that had been crushed.
939
00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757
SULLIVAN:
940
00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757
They led me to where Daina
941
00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757
was trapped.
942
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,845
There was a first responder
943
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,845
with his hand on the beam
944
00:28:41,887 --> 00:28:43,681
that had her leg trapped.
945
00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:48,227
And if it trembled or moved,
946
00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:48,227
we were told we had to go.
947
00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:53,399
The beam was lying on her leg,
948
00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:53,399
her tibia, just below the knee.
949
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,402
Basically, to do the amputation,
950
00:28:56,443 --> 00:29:00,531
I had to lie with my legs
951
00:28:56,443 --> 00:29:00,531
up by her head.
952
00:29:00,573 --> 00:29:03,534
And so I took the traction rope
953
00:29:00,573 --> 00:29:03,534
and tightened it down
954
00:29:03,576 --> 00:29:06,328
so that I had a tourniquet.
955
00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:09,164
And then, you know, it's kind
956
00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:09,164
of like diving into ice water.
957
00:29:09,206 --> 00:29:11,917
I had to start.
958
00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:13,126
MAN:
959
00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:13,126
Get back!
960
00:29:13,168 --> 00:29:14,127
Go, go!
961
00:29:14,169 --> 00:29:15,212
Get them back!
962
00:29:15,254 --> 00:29:17,715
Get them back!
963
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553
POTOK:
964
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553
Just as I got
965
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553
to where the barricade was,
966
00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:26,139
this incredible scare went
967
00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:26,139
through the crowd.
968
00:29:26,181 --> 00:29:27,600
Get your stuff back now!
969
00:29:27,641 --> 00:29:29,101
Someone was yelling they thought
970
00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:31,645
they had discovered a second
971
00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:31,645
bomb: "Get back, get back!"
972
00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481
MAN:
973
00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481
We've got a hot device--
974
00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481
get them back!
975
00:29:34,523 --> 00:29:36,024
FLOWERS:
976
00:29:34,523 --> 00:29:36,024
They start screaming at us.
977
00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:39,570
"Get out of this building, we
978
00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:39,570
have just found another device!"
979
00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:42,364
And of course,
980
00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:42,364
everybody's heart sinks,
981
00:29:42,406 --> 00:29:44,116
because we've got people
982
00:29:42,406 --> 00:29:44,116
still alive in here.
983
00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:48,828
WOMAN:
984
00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:48,828
I was on the eighth floor.
985
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:51,998
My eyes were
986
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:51,998
in pretty bad shape.
987
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,835
Two of my friends
988
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,835
worked their way over to me,
989
00:29:55,877 --> 00:29:59,548
and said, "We've got to get out
990
00:29:55,877 --> 00:29:59,548
of here."
991
00:29:59,590 --> 00:30:01,341
I was praying, I was saying,
992
00:30:01,383 --> 00:30:03,802
"Lord, don't let there be
993
00:30:01,383 --> 00:30:03,802
any more bombs."
994
00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848
RICKS:
995
00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848
It turns out that it was not
996
00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848
a real device.
997
00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:12,852
It had been a mockup
998
00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:12,852
for one of the agencies there.
999
00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:15,855
But we were still telling
1000
00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:15,855
people, you know,
1001
00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:17,983
that we couldn't guarantee
1002
00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:17,983
their safety
1003
00:30:18,024 --> 00:30:18,942
as they went in there.
1004
00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864
FLOWERS:
1005
00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864
I remember seeing that team
1006
00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864
down there
1007
00:30:24,906 --> 00:30:28,661
working on that girl
1008
00:30:24,906 --> 00:30:28,661
to amputate that leg.
1009
00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:30,329
Everybody's screaming at them,
1010
00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:30,329
"Get out of there!
1011
00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:31,871
Get out of there,
1012
00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:31,871
the bomb's going to..."
1013
00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:34,583
And they would not leave,
1014
00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:34,583
they would not leave her.
1015
00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:37,877
SULLIVAN:
1016
00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:37,877
I don't remember how many times
1017
00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:40,798
I thought I had completed
1018
00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:40,798
the amputation.
1019
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,010
We would try to extract Daina
1020
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,010
and she was still caught.
1021
00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:47,887
I reached a point where
1022
00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:47,887
all of the blades were broken
1023
00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:49,515
and there was nothing else
1024
00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:49,515
to do,
1025
00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:52,518
but I had in my pocket
1026
00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:52,518
a pocketknife
1027
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:54,728
that I keep very sharp.
1028
00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:56,438
The thing that was
1029
00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:56,438
keeping us from extracting her
1030
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,106
was the quadriceps tendon,
1031
00:30:58,148 --> 00:30:59,817
and once I cut through that,
1032
00:30:59,858 --> 00:31:02,444
then I could kind of get a sense
1033
00:30:59,858 --> 00:31:02,444
that the leg was free
1034
00:31:02,486 --> 00:31:04,863
and we were able to extract her.
1035
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:08,200
MAN (on radio):
1036
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:08,200
We have two critical patients.
1037
00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:11,787
I have one patient that needs
1038
00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:11,787
immediate transport...
1039
00:31:11,829 --> 00:31:15,123
SCHWAB:
1040
00:31:11,829 --> 00:31:15,123
When I got out of the building,
1041
00:31:15,165 --> 00:31:18,377
I sat on the curb
1042
00:31:15,165 --> 00:31:18,377
waiting for an ambulance.
1043
00:31:18,418 --> 00:31:20,504
I couldn't see anything,
1044
00:31:20,546 --> 00:31:23,382
but I could hear people yelling,
1045
00:31:20,546 --> 00:31:23,382
people screaming,
1046
00:31:23,423 --> 00:31:27,927
sirens in the background.
1047
00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:31,682
And I thought,
1048
00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:31,682
"What crazy person did this?
1049
00:31:31,724 --> 00:31:36,770
Who has come in here and done
1050
00:31:31,724 --> 00:31:36,770
this terrible thing?"
1051
00:31:41,066 --> 00:31:43,943
The bombing in Oklahoma City
1052
00:31:43,985 --> 00:31:46,739
was an attack
1053
00:31:43,985 --> 00:31:46,739
on innocent children
1054
00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:50,534
and defenseless citizens.
1055
00:31:50,576 --> 00:31:55,581
It was an act of cowardice
1056
00:31:50,576 --> 00:31:55,581
and it was evil.
1057
00:31:55,622 --> 00:31:58,751
Let there be no room for doubt,
1058
00:31:58,792 --> 00:32:01,879
we will find the people
1059
00:31:58,792 --> 00:32:01,879
who did this.
1060
00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007
RICKS:
1061
00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007
The bombing
1062
00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007
of the Murrah Building
1063
00:32:06,049 --> 00:32:07,967
was the largest domestic
1064
00:32:06,049 --> 00:32:07,967
terrorist event
1065
00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:11,971
that had ever occurred
1066
00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:11,971
in the United States.
1067
00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:14,391
We probably had
1068
00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:14,391
close to 500 investigators
1069
00:32:14,433 --> 00:32:17,603
that were here in Oklahoma City.
1070
00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:22,524
We had forensic teams,
1071
00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:22,524
bomb squad teams,
1072
00:32:22,566 --> 00:32:26,820
evidence response teams,
1073
00:32:22,566 --> 00:32:26,820
all kinds of experts,
1074
00:32:26,862 --> 00:32:28,947
looking for clues.
1075
00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786
MAN:
1076
00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786
This becomes one of the biggest
1077
00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786
criminal investigations
1078
00:32:33,827 --> 00:32:35,370
in American history.
1079
00:32:35,412 --> 00:32:39,666
Every police agency
1080
00:32:35,412 --> 00:32:39,666
in the country
1081
00:32:39,708 --> 00:32:45,004
is in some way trying
1082
00:32:39,708 --> 00:32:45,004
to track down leads,
1083
00:32:45,046 --> 00:32:49,384
because at the very first,
1084
00:32:45,046 --> 00:32:49,384
they had no idea who did it.
1085
00:32:49,426 --> 00:32:51,386
(phone rings)
1086
00:32:51,428 --> 00:32:53,012
FBI Hotline.
1087
00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726
RICKS:
1088
00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726
We have had hundreds,
1089
00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726
if not thousands of leads.
1090
00:32:57,768 --> 00:33:01,062
Each one of those is treated
1091
00:32:57,768 --> 00:33:01,062
very seriously.
1092
00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:03,022
But at this point,
1093
00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:03,022
we cannot speculate
1094
00:33:03,064 --> 00:33:05,818
with regard
1095
00:33:03,064 --> 00:33:05,818
to who is responsible.
1096
00:33:05,859 --> 00:33:09,404
We ended up with leads
1097
00:33:05,859 --> 00:33:09,404
in literally every state,
1098
00:33:09,446 --> 00:33:11,030
as well as many
1099
00:33:09,446 --> 00:33:11,030
foreign countries.
1100
00:33:11,072 --> 00:33:14,242
Whenever you have
1101
00:33:11,072 --> 00:33:14,242
a mass catastrophe,
1102
00:33:14,284 --> 00:33:15,786
such as the Murrah bombing,
1103
00:33:15,828 --> 00:33:17,078
the assumption is always,
1104
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,038
"You've got to have
1105
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,038
this great conspiracy.
1106
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,125
There've got to be
1107
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,125
multiple people involved."
1108
00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:25,879
And we operated
1109
00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:25,879
under that assumption, as well.
1110
00:33:25,921 --> 00:33:29,048
We were getting calls, even
1111
00:33:25,921 --> 00:33:29,048
just after the bombing happened.
1112
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:31,844
We were getting reports
1113
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:31,844
by the thousands,
1114
00:33:31,885 --> 00:33:34,805
that, "I saw this, I saw that."
1115
00:33:34,847 --> 00:33:37,349
Then we started getting calls
1116
00:33:34,847 --> 00:33:37,349
over the radio
1117
00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:38,642
about Middle Easterners.
1118
00:33:38,684 --> 00:33:40,185
"Start looking
1119
00:33:38,684 --> 00:33:40,185
for Middle Easterners."
1120
00:33:40,226 --> 00:33:44,982
There has yet been no claim of
1121
00:33:40,226 --> 00:33:44,982
responsibility for this bombing,
1122
00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:47,066
although if you talk
1123
00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:47,066
to intelligence sources
1124
00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:48,735
and to law enforcement
1125
00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:48,735
officials,
1126
00:33:48,777 --> 00:33:51,070
they all say
1127
00:33:48,777 --> 00:33:51,070
in their early guess
1128
00:33:51,112 --> 00:33:52,364
in this situation
1129
00:33:52,405 --> 00:33:53,740
is that this particular bombing
1130
00:33:53,782 --> 00:33:55,909
probably has roots
1131
00:33:53,782 --> 00:33:55,909
in the Middle East.
1132
00:33:55,951 --> 00:33:58,244
A U.S. government source
1133
00:33:55,951 --> 00:33:58,244
has told CBS News
1134
00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:01,707
that it has Middle East
1135
00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:01,707
terrorism written all over it.
1136
00:34:01,748 --> 00:34:04,626
WOMAN:
1137
00:34:01,748 --> 00:34:04,626
I started making phone calls,
1138
00:34:04,668 --> 00:34:06,127
trying to find out
1139
00:34:04,668 --> 00:34:06,127
what was going on
1140
00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:08,588
and very quickly found out
1141
00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:08,588
that the Feds went
1142
00:34:08,630 --> 00:34:11,090
and raided an apartment
1143
00:34:08,630 --> 00:34:11,090
in Dallas
1144
00:34:11,132 --> 00:34:15,094
that was occupied
1145
00:34:11,132 --> 00:34:15,094
by some Middle Eastern guys.
1146
00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:17,096
But then someone I spoke to
1147
00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:17,096
said,
1148
00:34:17,138 --> 00:34:19,474
"Do you know what day it is?"
1149
00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:21,059
I said, you know, "What?"
1150
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,102
I had been off work
1151
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,102
for a couple of days,
1152
00:34:23,144 --> 00:34:25,104
and so, you know,
1153
00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:27,106
wasn't paying attention
1154
00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:27,106
to the calendar that closely.
1155
00:34:27,148 --> 00:34:29,359
And someone said,
1156
00:34:27,148 --> 00:34:29,359
"It's April 19."
1157
00:34:29,401 --> 00:34:33,112
Immediately it hit me.
1158
00:34:33,154 --> 00:34:35,824
This is about Waco.
1159
00:34:35,866 --> 00:34:38,035
You know, this is about Waco.
1160
00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:50,129
♪ Give me that
1161
00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:50,129
old-time religion ♪
1162
00:34:50,171 --> 00:34:53,884
♪ Give me that
1163
00:34:50,171 --> 00:34:53,884
old-time religion ♪
1164
00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:56,344
♪ Give me that
1165
00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:56,344
old-time religion ♪
1166
00:34:56,386 --> 00:34:59,347
♪ It's good enough for me! ♪
1167
00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141
WRIGHT:
1168
00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141
The Branch Davidians
1169
00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141
had been in Texas
1170
00:35:02,183 --> 00:35:03,309
for over 50 years
1171
00:35:03,351 --> 00:35:05,979
by the time that most people
1172
00:35:03,351 --> 00:35:05,979
outside of Waco
1173
00:35:06,021 --> 00:35:07,022
had ever heard of them.
1174
00:35:07,064 --> 00:35:09,608
They were an offshoot
1175
00:35:09,649 --> 00:35:12,151
of the Seventh-day
1176
00:35:09,649 --> 00:35:12,151
Adventist Church.
1177
00:35:12,193 --> 00:35:16,531
They found a place just outside
1178
00:35:12,193 --> 00:35:16,531
of Waco, called it Mt. Carmel,
1179
00:35:16,573 --> 00:35:18,992
and set up this community.
1180
00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:23,538
In the late '80s,
1181
00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,457
a young Davidian
1182
00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,457
named Vernon Howell
1183
00:35:25,498 --> 00:35:26,959
had a revelation
1184
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,878
that God had chosen him
1185
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,878
to be their leader.
1186
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,048
He changed his name
1187
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,048
to David Koresh
1188
00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:36,426
and began preaching
1189
00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:36,426
his vision of Armageddon
1190
00:35:36,468 --> 00:35:38,177
out of the Book of Revelation.
1191
00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:40,055
"So how's God going to talk
1192
00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:40,055
to me in the latter days?"
1193
00:35:40,097 --> 00:35:41,180
AUDIENCE:
1194
00:35:40,097 --> 00:35:41,180
It's going to be written.
1195
00:35:41,222 --> 00:35:42,348
And who's going to bring
1196
00:35:41,222 --> 00:35:42,348
that book?
1197
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:43,433
(audience mumbles answer)
1198
00:35:43,475 --> 00:35:44,559
So there'll be no excuses!
1199
00:35:44,601 --> 00:35:48,521
HANCOCK:
1200
00:35:44,601 --> 00:35:48,521
In about May of 1992,
1201
00:35:48,563 --> 00:35:51,108
the sheriff's department in Waco
1202
00:35:51,149 --> 00:35:53,902
got a report
1203
00:35:51,149 --> 00:35:53,902
from a U.P.S. truck driver
1204
00:35:53,944 --> 00:35:57,155
about a shipment going
1205
00:35:53,944 --> 00:35:57,155
to Mt. Carmel.
1206
00:35:57,196 --> 00:35:59,282
There was a box that fell apart,
1207
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:03,202
and some pineapple grenade hulls
1208
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:03,202
came out of the box.
1209
00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:04,955
That's what prompted
1210
00:36:04,997 --> 00:36:08,041
the beginning
1211
00:36:04,997 --> 00:36:08,041
of the ATF investigation.
1212
00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209
MAN:
1213
00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209
That investigation was able
1214
00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209
to determine
1215
00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:12,420
that they were illegally
1216
00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:12,420
converting automatic weapons
1217
00:36:12,462 --> 00:36:14,006
in there,
1218
00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:18,176
that they had purchased
1219
00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:18,176
about $43,000 worth of firearms
1220
00:36:18,217 --> 00:36:19,928
during the year prior to it,
1221
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:22,848
and members of the community
1222
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:22,848
out there
1223
00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:25,391
had heard automatic weapons fire
1224
00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:25,391
and explosions
1225
00:36:25,433 --> 00:36:28,227
coming from the compound.
1226
00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:31,230
HANCOCK:
1227
00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:31,230
Koresh preached increasingly
1228
00:36:31,272 --> 00:36:34,651
that they were going to be met
1229
00:36:31,272 --> 00:36:34,651
with an opposing force.
1230
00:36:34,693 --> 00:36:36,695
So when we start getting
1231
00:36:34,693 --> 00:36:36,695
into the subject
1232
00:36:36,736 --> 00:36:37,904
of the Seven Seals,
1233
00:36:37,946 --> 00:36:39,238
looks like somebody's
1234
00:36:37,946 --> 00:36:39,238
going to get
1235
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,740
a butt-whuppin'
1236
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,740
in the near future,
1237
00:36:40,782 --> 00:36:42,034
aren't they?
1238
00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:44,077
HANCOCK:
1239
00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:44,077
He believed that the government
1240
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,830
was going to try to invade
1241
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,830
this sacred ground
1242
00:36:46,872 --> 00:36:49,248
that was Mt. Carmel.
1243
00:36:49,290 --> 00:36:53,252
And so, this actually would be
1244
00:36:49,290 --> 00:36:53,252
where Armageddon takes place.
1245
00:36:53,294 --> 00:36:55,463
BUFORD:
1246
00:36:53,294 --> 00:36:55,463
People in ATF felt
1247
00:36:55,505 --> 00:37:00,093
that if this Armageddon that
1248
00:36:55,505 --> 00:37:00,093
he predicted didn't come true,
1249
00:37:00,135 --> 00:37:02,261
he was going to have to do
1250
00:37:00,135 --> 00:37:02,261
something to prompt it.
1251
00:37:02,303 --> 00:37:07,225
So we decided that we needed
1252
00:37:02,303 --> 00:37:07,225
to act as quickly as possible.
1253
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191
HANCOCK:
1254
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191
Reporters for the Waco
1255
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191
Tribune-Herald
1256
00:37:14,273 --> 00:37:17,694
had really good sources
1257
00:37:14,273 --> 00:37:17,694
in local law enforcement,
1258
00:37:17,736 --> 00:37:19,154
and they had been tipped
1259
00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:22,157
about when the raid
1260
00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:22,157
was going to go down.
1261
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:25,493
This road's going to be
1262
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:25,493
closed soon.
1263
00:37:25,535 --> 00:37:27,996
HANCOCK:
1264
00:37:25,535 --> 00:37:27,996
The morning of the raid,
1265
00:37:28,038 --> 00:37:30,707
a reporter was sent
1266
00:37:28,038 --> 00:37:30,707
to the compound,
1267
00:37:30,749 --> 00:37:32,209
and he's driving around
1268
00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:34,293
trying to figure out
1269
00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:34,293
where he is,
1270
00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:37,296
when here comes
1271
00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:37,296
a Buick station wagon,
1272
00:37:37,338 --> 00:37:38,798
stops, rolls down the window,
1273
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,341
says, "Hey, buddy,
1274
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,341
are you lost?"
1275
00:37:40,383 --> 00:37:44,888
He says, "Yeah, I'm looking
1276
00:37:40,383 --> 00:37:44,888
for Mt. Carmel.
1277
00:37:44,930 --> 00:37:48,016
There's going to be a big raid."
1278
00:37:48,058 --> 00:37:50,602
Turns out that the guy
1279
00:37:48,058 --> 00:37:50,602
in the car
1280
00:37:50,643 --> 00:37:54,773
is one of the inner circle
1281
00:37:50,643 --> 00:37:54,773
of Koresh's followers.
1282
00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:57,316
He immediately goes
1283
00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:57,316
and tells Koresh
1284
00:37:57,358 --> 00:37:59,611
what was happening.
1285
00:37:59,652 --> 00:38:00,987
That morning,
1286
00:38:01,029 --> 00:38:04,241
David said
1287
00:38:01,029 --> 00:38:04,241
that we had information
1288
00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,618
that there was going
1289
00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,618
to be a raid today.
1290
00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:11,289
The men were arming themselves
1291
00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:11,289
and the women were told
1292
00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:16,044
to go back to their rooms
1293
00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:16,044
and bunker down.
1294
00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504
BUFORD:
1295
00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504
We were going to be confronting
1296
00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504
150 people
1297
00:38:18,546 --> 00:38:21,049
on a very large compound.
1298
00:38:21,091 --> 00:38:23,551
They had 45 minutes
1299
00:38:21,091 --> 00:38:23,551
to prepare for us
1300
00:38:23,593 --> 00:38:27,264
and began firing on us
1301
00:38:23,593 --> 00:38:27,264
as soon as we got there.
1302
00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:33,853
I heard an M60 machine gun
1303
00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:33,853
being fired.
1304
00:38:33,895 --> 00:38:37,857
Then I heard the A.K.-47s.
1305
00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:39,859
And then I heard
1306
00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:39,859
the 50-calibers,
1307
00:38:39,901 --> 00:38:42,862
just a brutal, brutal weapon.
1308
00:38:42,904 --> 00:38:46,365
(gunfire banging and popping)
1309
00:38:46,407 --> 00:38:49,410
There's no doubt these people
1310
00:38:46,407 --> 00:38:49,410
were trying to kill us.
1311
00:38:49,452 --> 00:38:52,371
(gunfire continuing)
1312
00:38:52,413 --> 00:38:55,208
The firefight went on
1313
00:38:52,413 --> 00:38:55,208
for 2 1/2 hours.
1314
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:59,171
And when they finally agreed
1315
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:59,171
to a ceasefire,
1316
00:38:59,212 --> 00:39:02,966
we were able to get our people
1317
00:38:59,212 --> 00:39:02,966
and get out.
1318
00:39:03,008 --> 00:39:03,967
MAN:
1319
00:39:03,008 --> 00:39:03,967
Yeah, this is Lynch.
1320
00:39:04,009 --> 00:39:04,968
KORESH:
1321
00:39:04,009 --> 00:39:04,968
Hey, Lynch?
1322
00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:06,469
LYNCH:
1323
00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:06,469
Yeah.
1324
00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971
KORESH:
1325
00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971
That's kind of
1326
00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971
a funny name there.
1327
00:39:08,013 --> 00:39:09,347
Now, listen, now...
1328
00:39:09,388 --> 00:39:10,389
LYNCH:
1329
00:39:09,388 --> 00:39:10,389
Now, who am I speaking with?
1330
00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:11,599
KORESH:
1331
00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:11,599
This is David Koresh.
1332
00:39:11,641 --> 00:39:12,600
LYNCH:
1333
00:39:11,641 --> 00:39:12,600
Okay, David.
1334
00:39:12,642 --> 00:39:13,810
KORESH:
1335
00:39:12,642 --> 00:39:13,810
The notorious.
1336
00:39:13,852 --> 00:39:15,645
What'd you guys do that for?
1337
00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440
LYNCH:
1338
00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440
Well, David, what, this,
1339
00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440
what I'm doing is,
1340
00:39:19,482 --> 00:39:21,776
I'm trying to establish some
1341
00:39:19,482 --> 00:39:21,776
communication links with you.
1342
00:39:21,818 --> 00:39:22,819
KORESH:
1343
00:39:21,818 --> 00:39:22,819
No, no, no, no, no.
1344
00:39:22,861 --> 00:39:23,820
Let me tell you something.
1345
00:39:23,862 --> 00:39:24,988
LYNCH:
1346
00:39:23,862 --> 00:39:24,988
Yes, sir.
1347
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:26,198
KORESH:
1348
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:26,198
You see, you brought
1349
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:27,406
a bunch of guys out here
1350
00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:29,408
and you killed
1351
00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:29,408
some of my children.
1352
00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:31,036
We told you we wanted to talk.
1353
00:39:31,077 --> 00:39:32,578
How come you guys had
1354
00:39:31,077 --> 00:39:32,578
to be ATF agents?
1355
00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:34,998
How come you try to be so big
1356
00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:34,998
all the time?
1357
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,499
LYNCH:
1358
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,499
Okay, David...
1359
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210
KORESH:
1360
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210
Now there's a bunch
1361
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210
of us dead.
1362
00:39:38,251 --> 00:39:39,585
There's a bunch
1363
00:39:38,251 --> 00:39:39,585
of you guys dead.
1364
00:39:39,627 --> 00:39:41,420
Now, now that's your fault.
1365
00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422
LYNCH:
1366
00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422
Okay, let's, let's try
1367
00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422
to resolve this now.
1368
00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:46,425
Tell me this,
1369
00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:46,425
now, you have casualties.
1370
00:39:46,467 --> 00:39:47,886
How many casualties?
1371
00:39:47,927 --> 00:39:49,637
Do you want to try
1372
00:39:47,927 --> 00:39:49,637
to work something out?
1373
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:53,516
ATF is pulling back,
1374
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:53,516
we're trying to, uh...
1375
00:39:53,558 --> 00:39:56,435
KORESH:
1376
00:39:53,558 --> 00:39:56,435
Why didn't you do that first?
1377
00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192
HANCOCK:
1378
00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192
By the end of this shootout,
1379
00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192
four ATF agents were dead,
1380
00:40:02,234 --> 00:40:03,943
more than a dozen were wounded.
1381
00:40:03,985 --> 00:40:08,031
And inside, five Davidians
1382
00:40:03,985 --> 00:40:08,031
were dead
1383
00:40:08,073 --> 00:40:09,741
and David Koresh was wounded.
1384
00:40:09,782 --> 00:40:11,492
MAN:
1385
00:40:09,782 --> 00:40:11,492
Okay, then, move out.
1386
00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125
BUFORD:
1387
00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125
There really wasn't much
1388
00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125
organization as to how we left.
1389
00:40:19,167 --> 00:40:20,877
The three team leaders,
1390
00:40:19,167 --> 00:40:20,877
all of us,
1391
00:40:20,919 --> 00:40:23,380
were wounded very badly.
1392
00:40:23,421 --> 00:40:29,094
I was actually put in a blanket
1393
00:40:23,421 --> 00:40:29,094
and placed on the hood of a car,
1394
00:40:29,135 --> 00:40:31,679
and, uh...
1395
00:40:31,721 --> 00:40:36,475
I don't remember anything about
1396
00:40:31,721 --> 00:40:36,475
the... the trip out, actually.
1397
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856
HANCOCK:
1398
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856
American law enforcement had
1399
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856
never seen anything like this.
1400
00:40:41,898 --> 00:40:44,776
They had never had
1401
00:40:41,898 --> 00:40:44,776
this kind of loss.
1402
00:40:44,817 --> 00:40:50,823
They had never been met
1403
00:40:44,817 --> 00:40:50,823
with this kind of resistance.
1404
00:40:50,865 --> 00:40:52,992
There was shock,
1405
00:40:50,865 --> 00:40:52,992
there was anger,
1406
00:40:53,034 --> 00:40:57,580
and there was uncertainty.
1407
00:40:57,622 --> 00:40:59,665
REPORTER:
1408
00:40:57,622 --> 00:40:59,665
Tragedy tonight in Waco, Texas.
1409
00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,543
At least four federal agents
1410
00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,543
and a member of a cult group
1411
00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:06,505
are dead after an hour-long
1412
00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:06,505
gun battle at the cult's ranch.
1413
00:41:06,547 --> 00:41:08,841
14 other agents were
1414
00:41:06,547 --> 00:41:08,841
wounded in the shootout
1415
00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:11,761
that started when law officers
1416
00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:11,761
tried to enter the compound.
1417
00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224
MAN (over loudspeaker):
1418
00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224
David Koresh, pick up
1419
00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224
the phone.
1420
00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:19,311
The negotiators
1421
00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:19,311
want to speak with you.
1422
00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519
RICKS:
1423
00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519
The tactic
1424
00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519
from the very beginning
1425
00:41:20,561 --> 00:41:24,190
was trying to negotiate
1426
00:41:20,561 --> 00:41:24,190
a resolution.
1427
00:41:24,232 --> 00:41:27,444
We were willing to spend
1428
00:41:24,232 --> 00:41:27,444
as long as possible
1429
00:41:27,485 --> 00:41:28,736
to try to get the people out.
1430
00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:32,531
And particularly,
1431
00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:32,531
we would focus on the children,
1432
00:41:32,573 --> 00:41:36,995
trying to get the children
1433
00:41:32,573 --> 00:41:36,995
out of there.
1434
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623
MAN:
1435
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623
And starting off the evening
1436
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623
of the 28th of February,
1437
00:41:40,665 --> 00:41:41,833
we were successful.
1438
00:41:41,874 --> 00:41:46,045
We were starting
1439
00:41:41,874 --> 00:41:46,045
to get kids out.
1440
00:41:46,087 --> 00:41:49,007
But we couldn't fathom
1441
00:41:46,087 --> 00:41:49,007
how in the world
1442
00:41:49,048 --> 00:41:53,219
these parents were so latched
1443
00:41:49,048 --> 00:41:53,219
onto David
1444
00:41:53,261 --> 00:41:55,805
that they would abandon
1445
00:41:53,261 --> 00:41:55,805
their children.
1446
00:41:58,766 --> 00:42:00,310
We took videotapes of them
1447
00:42:00,352 --> 00:42:02,270
playing on the,
1448
00:42:00,352 --> 00:42:02,270
on the swing set,
1449
00:42:02,312 --> 00:42:04,314
and eating ice cream,
1450
00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:07,275
and just communing
1451
00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:07,275
with one another,
1452
00:42:07,317 --> 00:42:12,280
and we sent them back
1453
00:42:07,317 --> 00:42:12,280
into the compound.
1454
00:42:12,322 --> 00:42:14,282
We wanted
1455
00:42:12,322 --> 00:42:14,282
to do something tangible
1456
00:42:14,324 --> 00:42:15,783
so their parents could think,
1457
00:42:14,324 --> 00:42:15,783
you know,
1458
00:42:15,825 --> 00:42:20,163
"Maybe I need to come out
1459
00:42:15,825 --> 00:42:20,163
and reassume my responsibility
1460
00:42:20,205 --> 00:42:21,956
as a parent."
1461
00:42:21,998 --> 00:42:25,460
(kids greeting their parents)
1462
00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586
SCHROEDER:
1463
00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586
I didn't decide
1464
00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586
to send my kids out.
1465
00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:32,258
My kids leaving
1466
00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:32,258
was part of the prophecy.
1467
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,720
I didn't know when it was going
1468
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,720
to happen,
1469
00:42:35,761 --> 00:42:38,473
but I knew it would happen.
1470
00:42:38,515 --> 00:42:39,849
They weren't David's children.
1471
00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:43,561
MAN:
1472
00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:43,561
He let children go
1473
00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:45,855
up until there were
1474
00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:45,855
no children left in there
1475
00:42:45,897 --> 00:42:47,482
except his children.
1476
00:42:47,524 --> 00:42:49,650
And he told us,
1477
00:42:47,524 --> 00:42:49,650
"This is the last one.
1478
00:42:49,692 --> 00:42:50,818
The rest are mine."
1479
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331
HANCOCK:
1480
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331
The negotiators needed
1481
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331
a different way
1482
00:43:03,373 --> 00:43:05,624
to approach the situation.
1483
00:43:05,666 --> 00:43:10,755
And so it was proposed to Koresh
1484
00:43:05,666 --> 00:43:10,755
that he make a recording
1485
00:43:10,796 --> 00:43:12,257
that could be broadcast
1486
00:43:12,298 --> 00:43:14,633
to bring his message
1487
00:43:12,298 --> 00:43:14,633
to the world,
1488
00:43:14,675 --> 00:43:17,720
if he would agree
1489
00:43:14,675 --> 00:43:17,720
to lead his people out.
1490
00:43:17,762 --> 00:43:21,099
Koresh agreed to do this.
1491
00:43:21,140 --> 00:43:22,434
Okay, here we go.
1492
00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:24,852
We're going to the tape
1493
00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:24,852
of David Koresh.
1494
00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:28,231
KORESH:
1495
00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:28,231
It's March 2, 1993.
1496
00:43:28,273 --> 00:43:30,649
My name is Dave Koresh.
1497
00:43:30,691 --> 00:43:34,653
I'm speaking to you
1498
00:43:30,691 --> 00:43:34,653
from Mt. Carmel Center.
1499
00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:38,408
In the Book of Revelation,
1500
00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:38,408
commentary states
1501
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:41,619
that what John has written
1502
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:41,619
in Scripture
1503
00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:45,415
is nothing other than
1504
00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:45,415
the revelation of Jesus Christ,
1505
00:43:45,457 --> 00:43:49,668
which God gave to Him
1506
00:43:45,457 --> 00:43:49,668
to show to His servants
1507
00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:53,214
things which must shortly
1508
00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:53,214
come to pass...
1509
00:43:53,256 --> 00:43:55,425
HANCOCK:
1510
00:43:53,256 --> 00:43:55,425
They're bringing in buses.
1511
00:43:55,467 --> 00:43:57,676
They're bringing in
1512
00:43:55,467 --> 00:43:57,676
all sorts of people
1513
00:43:57,718 --> 00:43:59,429
who are going to help process
1514
00:43:57,718 --> 00:43:59,429
the folks
1515
00:43:59,471 --> 00:44:01,431
coming out of the compound.
1516
00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,642
They were convinced
1517
00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,642
that he was going to come out.
1518
00:44:06,685 --> 00:44:08,354
RICKS:
1519
00:44:06,685 --> 00:44:08,354
We were at such a high level,
1520
00:44:08,396 --> 00:44:11,857
thinking that this thing
1521
00:44:08,396 --> 00:44:11,857
was going to end.
1522
00:44:11,899 --> 00:44:14,652
We were high-fiving each other,
1523
00:44:14,693 --> 00:44:17,363
then all of a sudden,
1524
00:44:14,693 --> 00:44:17,363
everything just stopped.
1525
00:44:17,405 --> 00:44:23,119
We were told that David received
1526
00:44:17,405 --> 00:44:23,119
a message from God
1527
00:44:23,161 --> 00:44:25,037
telling them to wait.
1528
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:26,456
SAGE:
1529
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:26,456
You went back on your word.
1530
00:44:26,498 --> 00:44:27,624
KORESH:
1531
00:44:26,498 --> 00:44:27,624
That is a lie!
1532
00:44:27,665 --> 00:44:28,625
SAGE:
1533
00:44:27,665 --> 00:44:28,625
That is not a lie.
1534
00:44:28,666 --> 00:44:30,502
KORESH:
1535
00:44:28,666 --> 00:44:30,502
That is a lie!
1536
00:44:30,543 --> 00:44:31,961
You will find out
1537
00:44:30,543 --> 00:44:31,961
in the Judgment...
1538
00:44:32,003 --> 00:44:33,671
SAGE:
1539
00:44:32,003 --> 00:44:33,671
You know as well as I do
1540
00:44:33,712 --> 00:44:35,714
that your challenge
1541
00:44:33,712 --> 00:44:35,714
to open these Seven Seals,
1542
00:44:35,756 --> 00:44:37,925
it's garbage, it's a false
1543
00:44:35,756 --> 00:44:37,925
hope, and you know this.
1544
00:44:37,967 --> 00:44:39,677
KORESH:
1545
00:44:37,967 --> 00:44:39,677
No, it's not.
1546
00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:41,554
HANCOCK:
1547
00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:41,554
Once he didn't come out,
1548
00:44:41,596 --> 00:44:44,723
the FBI's tactics pretty quickly
1549
00:44:41,596 --> 00:44:44,723
became aggressive.
1550
00:44:44,765 --> 00:44:48,353
The power was cut.
1551
00:44:48,394 --> 00:44:51,772
They blasted lights
1552
00:44:48,394 --> 00:44:51,772
at the compound.
1553
00:44:51,814 --> 00:44:54,775
They had brought in tanks,
1554
00:44:54,817 --> 00:44:59,905
so they drove
1555
00:44:54,817 --> 00:44:59,905
over Koresh's prized cars.
1556
00:44:59,947 --> 00:45:05,453
They also set up loudspeakers
1557
00:44:59,947 --> 00:45:05,453
and they began blasting
1558
00:45:05,495 --> 00:45:08,705
Nancy Sinatra's "These
1559
00:45:05,495 --> 00:45:08,705
Boots Are Made for Walking."
1560
00:45:08,747 --> 00:45:11,792
♪ One of these days these boots
1561
00:45:08,747 --> 00:45:11,792
are gonna walk all over you. ♪
1562
00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672
HANCOCK:
1563
00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672
Christmas carols,
1564
00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672
the sounds of dying rabbits,
1565
00:45:15,712 --> 00:45:21,219
phones off the hook,
1566
00:45:15,712 --> 00:45:21,219
and even Tibetan monk chants.
1567
00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,555
It was clear
1568
00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,555
that the FBI was saying,
1569
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,724
"Hey, we're going to show you
1570
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,724
who's boss."
1571
00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395
REPORTER:
1572
00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395
The standoff outside
1573
00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395
the Branch Davidian compound
1574
00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,771
has become a psychological
1575
00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,771
power struggle.
1576
00:45:32,813 --> 00:45:36,401
Now, sources tell CBS News
1577
00:45:32,813 --> 00:45:36,401
that federal agents don't plan
1578
00:45:36,442 --> 00:45:38,152
to let this go on indefinitely,
1579
00:45:38,194 --> 00:45:40,446
their frustration level
1580
00:45:38,194 --> 00:45:40,446
is very high,
1581
00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:42,781
and if negotiations
1582
00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:42,781
are not more fruitful,
1583
00:45:42,823 --> 00:45:44,867
they may take action
1584
00:45:42,823 --> 00:45:44,867
by this weekend.
1585
00:45:44,909 --> 00:45:46,369
Dan?
1586
00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787
RICKS:
1587
00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787
The story kept growing
1588
00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787
and growing.
1589
00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:53,668
And the press initially
1590
00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:53,668
was very supportive
1591
00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:54,960
of what we were doing,
1592
00:45:55,002 --> 00:45:56,254
and very understanding,
1593
00:45:56,295 --> 00:45:58,797
but as the days went on,
1594
00:45:58,839 --> 00:46:00,925
they started becoming
1595
00:45:58,839 --> 00:46:00,925
more demanding.
1596
00:46:00,966 --> 00:46:05,137
They were saying, "After all,
1597
00:46:00,966 --> 00:46:05,137
they've killed four ATF agents.
1598
00:46:05,179 --> 00:46:09,808
Why are you just sitting back
1599
00:46:05,179 --> 00:46:09,808
and letting them do this?"
1600
00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:11,686
We are not going
1601
00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:11,686
to be jerked around.
1602
00:46:11,728 --> 00:46:14,939
We will take whatever action
1603
00:46:11,728 --> 00:46:14,939
is necessary to get it resolved.
1604
00:46:14,980 --> 00:46:17,816
And again, our ultimate goal
1605
00:46:14,980 --> 00:46:17,816
from day one
1606
00:46:17,858 --> 00:46:20,236
is to get it resolved
1607
00:46:17,858 --> 00:46:20,236
peacefully.
1608
00:46:20,278 --> 00:46:23,615
It was probably the number-one
1609
00:46:20,278 --> 00:46:23,615
story in the United States,
1610
00:46:23,656 --> 00:46:26,451
and many of the right-wing
1611
00:46:23,656 --> 00:46:26,451
Patriot types
1612
00:46:26,492 --> 00:46:27,826
started showing up, as well.
1613
00:46:27,868 --> 00:46:33,374
They thought this was
1614
00:46:27,868 --> 00:46:33,374
only about seizing guns,
1615
00:46:33,416 --> 00:46:35,543
about ATF attacking a church
1616
00:46:35,585 --> 00:46:39,213
because they believed
1617
00:46:35,585 --> 00:46:39,213
in possessing guns.
1618
00:46:39,255 --> 00:46:42,550
They didn't manage to get
1619
00:46:39,255 --> 00:46:42,550
into the press conferences,
1620
00:46:42,592 --> 00:46:45,637
but somebody else did.
1621
00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680
HANCOCK:
1622
00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680
Louis Beam, the white
1623
00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680
supremacist
1624
00:46:47,722 --> 00:46:49,265
and former Klan leader,
1625
00:46:49,307 --> 00:46:53,561
showed up and presented himself
1626
00:46:49,307 --> 00:46:53,561
as a credentialed reporter.
1627
00:46:53,603 --> 00:46:56,188
Are we seeing the emergence
1628
00:46:53,603 --> 00:46:56,188
of a police state
1629
00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:57,814
in The United States?
1630
00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:00,067
We figured out who he was
1631
00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:00,067
pretty quickly.
1632
00:47:00,109 --> 00:47:03,904
He'd previously been on the
1633
00:47:00,109 --> 00:47:03,904
FBI's top ten most wanted list.
1634
00:47:03,946 --> 00:47:06,865
And I asked them if they're
1635
00:47:03,946 --> 00:47:06,865
going to have a police state,
1636
00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:09,702
and, uh, they don't want
1637
00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:09,702
to hear about police state,
1638
00:47:09,744 --> 00:47:14,290
ATF black-booted, black-suited,
1639
00:47:09,744 --> 00:47:14,290
black-helmeted troopers
1640
00:47:14,332 --> 00:47:15,874
carrying guns,
1641
00:47:14,332 --> 00:47:15,874
assaulting people.
1642
00:47:15,916 --> 00:47:17,834
Mr. Beam?
1643
00:47:15,916 --> 00:47:17,834
Let me see this...
1644
00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881
ZESKIND:
1645
00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881
White supremacists, like Beam,
1646
00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881
saw in this standoff
1647
00:47:22,923 --> 00:47:26,093
the same issues that they
1648
00:47:22,923 --> 00:47:26,093
had decided were important
1649
00:47:26,135 --> 00:47:27,679
with Randy Weaver.
1650
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:32,391
The Branch Davidians
1651
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:32,391
were not white supremacists.
1652
00:47:32,433 --> 00:47:34,893
But now a broader section
1653
00:47:32,433 --> 00:47:34,893
of the far right
1654
00:47:34,935 --> 00:47:37,647
sees itself in Waco, and says,
1655
00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:41,609
"We're being suppressed
1656
00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:41,609
for our beliefs and our guns."
1657
00:47:41,651 --> 00:47:44,320
Up to the top of the hill,
1658
00:47:41,651 --> 00:47:44,320
them two white...
1659
00:47:44,362 --> 00:47:45,988
Little white buildings
1660
00:47:44,362 --> 00:47:45,988
up there.
1661
00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910
HANCOCK:
1662
00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910
There was a hill that was about
1663
00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910
three miles from Mt. Carmel.
1664
00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:53,954
It was on a rise
1665
00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:53,954
that was high enough
1666
00:47:53,996 --> 00:47:58,875
that you could just barely see
1667
00:47:53,996 --> 00:47:58,875
Mt. Carmel in the distance.
1668
00:47:58,917 --> 00:48:01,170
This was as close
1669
00:47:58,917 --> 00:48:01,170
as members of the public
1670
00:48:01,212 --> 00:48:04,632
could get to the standoff.
1671
00:48:04,674 --> 00:48:06,509
WOMAN:
1672
00:48:04,674 --> 00:48:06,509
You're next, you're next!
1673
00:48:06,551 --> 00:48:08,093
Wake up and understand!
1674
00:48:08,135 --> 00:48:09,804
You're next!
1675
00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391
HANCOCK:
1676
00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391
All sorts of folks felt moved
1677
00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391
to come down
1678
00:48:13,432 --> 00:48:15,643
to see what was going on
1679
00:48:13,432 --> 00:48:15,643
at Waco.
1680
00:48:25,319 --> 00:48:28,406
Just, just arrived today.
1681
00:48:28,447 --> 00:48:29,948
Just, somebody told me
1682
00:48:29,990 --> 00:48:31,450
a lot of people are scared
1683
00:48:29,990 --> 00:48:31,450
to put something on,
1684
00:48:31,492 --> 00:48:32,577
you know, like this.
1685
00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,953
HANCOCK:
1686
00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,953
Timothy McVeigh
1687
00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:37,956
had already apparently
1688
00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:37,956
been very concerned
1689
00:48:37,998 --> 00:48:40,959
about what had happened
1690
00:48:37,998 --> 00:48:40,959
at Ruby Ridge.
1691
00:48:41,001 --> 00:48:44,255
So he came down to Waco
1692
00:48:44,296 --> 00:48:45,964
and sold bumper stickers
1693
00:48:46,006 --> 00:48:51,554
with pro-gun, anti-government
1694
00:48:46,006 --> 00:48:51,554
slogans.
1695
00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:54,931
He saw the raid
1696
00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:54,931
as clear evidence
1697
00:48:54,973 --> 00:48:56,975
of what the government would do
1698
00:48:57,017 --> 00:49:01,188
to try to confiscate guns
1699
00:48:57,017 --> 00:49:01,188
and persecute gun owners.
1700
00:49:03,023 --> 00:49:05,984
HERBECK:
1701
00:49:03,023 --> 00:49:05,984
Tim McVeigh loved guns.
1702
00:49:06,026 --> 00:49:07,986
When he was a kid,
1703
00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:11,323
his grandfather taught him
1704
00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:11,323
all about guns:
1705
00:49:11,365 --> 00:49:16,078
the safe handling of guns
1706
00:49:11,365 --> 00:49:16,078
and the rights of gun owners.
1707
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,791
They would go out
1708
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,791
and shoot together,
1709
00:49:19,832 --> 00:49:22,418
go to target practice.
1710
00:49:22,460 --> 00:49:24,879
He just loved guns,
1711
00:49:24,921 --> 00:49:28,965
and the whole belief
1712
00:49:24,921 --> 00:49:28,965
about a man owning guns.
1713
00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681
MAN:
1714
00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681
Pendleton, New York,
1715
00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681
was white suburbia.
1716
00:49:35,723 --> 00:49:37,767
It's near Buffalo.
1717
00:49:37,809 --> 00:49:42,062
It's where generations
1718
00:49:37,809 --> 00:49:42,062
of the McVeigh family had lived.
1719
00:49:42,104 --> 00:49:43,564
Growing up,
1720
00:49:43,606 --> 00:49:45,023
Tim loved superheroes.
1721
00:49:45,065 --> 00:49:47,735
He had a huge comic book
1722
00:49:45,065 --> 00:49:47,735
collection,
1723
00:49:47,777 --> 00:49:51,405
he liked Soldier of Fortune
1724
00:49:47,777 --> 00:49:51,405
magazine,
1725
00:49:51,447 --> 00:49:54,158
and he hated bullies.
1726
00:49:54,199 --> 00:49:58,036
Tim was very skinny and tall,
1727
00:49:58,078 --> 00:50:03,041
and in high school, he was known
1728
00:49:58,078 --> 00:50:03,041
as "Noodle" McVeigh.
1729
00:50:03,083 --> 00:50:08,380
That was the beginning
1730
00:50:03,083 --> 00:50:08,380
of a lifelong hatred of bullies.
1731
00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052
HERBECK:
1732
00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052
After high school,
1733
00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052
he went into the Army.
1734
00:50:14,094 --> 00:50:19,684
He just couldn't seem to
1735
00:50:14,094 --> 00:50:19,684
find the right path to a career.
1736
00:50:19,725 --> 00:50:23,771
But the other reason
1737
00:50:19,725 --> 00:50:23,771
was he loved guns.
1738
00:50:23,813 --> 00:50:26,106
It gave him access
1739
00:50:23,813 --> 00:50:26,106
to all kinds of guns
1740
00:50:26,148 --> 00:50:31,445
and other weapons and he was
1741
00:50:26,148 --> 00:50:31,445
like a kid in a candy store.
1742
00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073
MCVEIGH:
1743
00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073
I was an admitted gun enthusiast
1744
00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073
and so you can't go wrong
1745
00:50:35,115 --> 00:50:36,617
both brushing up your skills
1746
00:50:36,659 --> 00:50:39,119
and, hell, the Army
1747
00:50:36,659 --> 00:50:39,119
is free ammunition.
1748
00:50:39,161 --> 00:50:40,788
So I wanted to get out
1749
00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:42,748
and experience
1750
00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:42,748
the rest of the world.
1751
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:46,126
I wanted to get out of my
1752
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:46,126
isolation of Pendleton.
1753
00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091
MICHEL:
1754
00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091
The Army provided Tim McVeigh
1755
00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091
with a place where he fit in.
1756
00:50:53,133 --> 00:50:58,096
He was the top gun at Fort Riley
1757
00:50:53,133 --> 00:50:58,096
in his Bradley fighting vehicle.
1758
00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:02,977
His supervisors took
1759
00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:02,977
notice of him.
1760
00:51:03,019 --> 00:51:06,104
He was a leader in the Army.
1761
00:51:06,146 --> 00:51:11,067
And then he goes over to Iraq
1762
00:51:06,146 --> 00:51:11,067
for the first Gulf War.
1763
00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114
HERBECK:
1764
00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114
It was in the war that McVeigh
1765
00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114
first started
1766
00:51:16,156 --> 00:51:19,618
to become disillusioned
1767
00:51:16,156 --> 00:51:19,618
with the military
1768
00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:22,413
and the United States
1769
00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:22,413
government.
1770
00:51:22,454 --> 00:51:27,125
When he killed Iraqi soldiers,
1771
00:51:27,167 --> 00:51:30,880
he didn't feel the exhilaration
1772
00:51:27,167 --> 00:51:30,880
that he thought he would.
1773
00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300
POTOK:
1774
00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300
He took a very, very long
1775
00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300
sniper shot
1776
00:51:35,342 --> 00:51:37,302
and killed an Iraqi soldier.
1777
00:51:37,344 --> 00:51:40,180
And he describes seeing
1778
00:51:37,344 --> 00:51:40,180
this man's head explode.
1779
00:51:40,222 --> 00:51:45,728
And he could not see
1780
00:51:40,222 --> 00:51:45,728
the reason for it.
1781
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:47,021
He could not really understand
1782
00:51:47,063 --> 00:51:49,356
what the United States
1783
00:51:47,063 --> 00:51:49,356
was doing there.
1784
00:51:49,398 --> 00:51:51,609
MCVEIGH: My overall experience
1785
00:51:49,398 --> 00:51:51,609
in the Gulf War
1786
00:51:51,650 --> 00:51:55,153
taught me that these people were
1787
00:51:51,650 --> 00:51:55,153
just that, they were people.
1788
00:51:55,195 --> 00:51:57,698
They were human beings
1789
00:51:55,195 --> 00:51:57,698
at the core,
1790
00:51:57,740 --> 00:51:59,157
they were no different than me.
1791
00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:01,702
Then I had to reconcile that
1792
00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:01,702
with the fact
1793
00:52:01,744 --> 00:52:05,706
that, well, I killed them.
1794
00:52:05,748 --> 00:52:09,125
MICHEL:
1795
00:52:05,748 --> 00:52:09,125
He's truly conflicted.
1796
00:52:09,167 --> 00:52:12,421
He sees the American government
1797
00:52:09,167 --> 00:52:12,421
as a bully.
1798
00:52:14,214 --> 00:52:19,095
But they summon him home for
1799
00:52:14,214 --> 00:52:19,095
ranger school, special forces.
1800
00:52:19,135 --> 00:52:23,265
And he was willing to put aside
1801
00:52:19,135 --> 00:52:23,265
his anti-government views
1802
00:52:23,307 --> 00:52:28,854
in order to become, you know,
1803
00:52:23,307 --> 00:52:28,854
the ultimate soldier.
1804
00:52:28,896 --> 00:52:31,649
But he's not in top-notch
1805
00:52:28,896 --> 00:52:31,649
physical shape
1806
00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:36,821
and, to his embarrassment,
1807
00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:36,821
washes out of rangers school.
1808
00:52:36,862 --> 00:52:41,199
And the disillusionment
1809
00:52:36,862 --> 00:52:41,199
compounds itself.
1810
00:52:41,241 --> 00:52:44,912
He stayed around the Army
1811
00:52:41,241 --> 00:52:44,912
for a few more months,
1812
00:52:44,954 --> 00:52:47,205
but his heart just
1813
00:52:44,954 --> 00:52:47,205
wasn't in it anymore.
1814
00:52:47,247 --> 00:52:52,920
He went back home and
1815
00:52:47,247 --> 00:52:52,920
he thought it would be easy
1816
00:52:52,962 --> 00:52:56,715
to get a good job because
1817
00:52:52,962 --> 00:52:56,715
of his Army experience,
1818
00:52:56,757 --> 00:52:59,217
but he found that it wasn't.
1819
00:52:59,259 --> 00:53:02,220
Failure was eating at him.
1820
00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:06,558
He told us that "I feel like I
1821
00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:06,558
reached a pinnacle in the Army
1822
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,981
and then after that everything
1823
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,981
was just mediocrity."
1824
00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777
BEN FENWICK:
1825
00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777
He becomes more and more
1826
00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777
disaffected.
1827
00:53:16,819 --> 00:53:19,237
He becomes more and
1828
00:53:16,819 --> 00:53:19,237
more strident.
1829
00:53:19,279 --> 00:53:23,408
He began paying attention to the
1830
00:53:19,279 --> 00:53:23,408
really far-off conspiracies,
1831
00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:25,369
like that the United Nations
1832
00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:25,369
was going to take over
1833
00:53:25,410 --> 00:53:31,917
the United States, and he
1834
00:53:25,410 --> 00:53:31,917
totally bought into them.
1835
00:53:31,959 --> 00:53:35,713
And he also
1836
00:53:31,959 --> 00:53:35,713
becomes very influenced
1837
00:53:35,754 --> 00:53:38,924
by The Turner Diaries.
1838
00:53:38,966 --> 00:53:41,259
He becomes just gripped
1839
00:53:38,966 --> 00:53:41,259
by this novel.
1840
00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683
HERBECK:
1841
00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683
He was really interested
1842
00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683
in this character, Earl Turner,
1843
00:53:47,725 --> 00:53:50,268
and his antigovernment views
1844
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:55,191
and his feeling that you needed
1845
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:55,191
to take drastic action
1846
00:53:55,231 --> 00:53:57,233
to make the government
1847
00:53:55,231 --> 00:53:57,233
take notice.
1848
00:53:59,277 --> 00:54:02,280
And then Ruby Ridge happened.
1849
00:54:02,322 --> 00:54:06,326
And Ruby Ridge absolutely
1850
00:54:02,322 --> 00:54:06,326
enraged McVeigh.
1851
00:54:06,368 --> 00:54:08,204
He felt it was murder.
1852
00:54:08,244 --> 00:54:10,288
He felt it was all about
1853
00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:14,085
attacking the rights of people
1854
00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:14,085
to own guns.
1855
00:54:16,336 --> 00:54:17,796
POTOK:
1856
00:54:16,336 --> 00:54:17,796
He was not happy.
1857
00:54:17,838 --> 00:54:19,381
He wasn't getting along
1858
00:54:17,838 --> 00:54:19,381
with his family.
1859
00:54:19,423 --> 00:54:21,299
He didn't have a girlfriend.
1860
00:54:21,341 --> 00:54:26,304
He took his old beat-up car and
1861
00:54:21,341 --> 00:54:26,304
essentially began an odyssey,
1862
00:54:26,346 --> 00:54:28,766
traveling around the western
1863
00:54:26,346 --> 00:54:28,766
parts of the country,
1864
00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:32,310
kind of absorbing more and
1865
00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:32,310
more and more of this ideology.
1866
00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:36,607
And probably the single
1867
00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:36,607
most important place
1868
00:54:36,648 --> 00:54:41,653
where ideas of the radical right
1869
00:54:36,648 --> 00:54:41,653
were spread were gun shows.
1870
00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325
LEVITAS:
1871
00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325
Gun shows were sometimes more
1872
00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325
than just gun shows.
1873
00:54:47,367 --> 00:54:51,163
The antigovernment message,
1874
00:54:47,367 --> 00:54:51,163
which cloaked itself
1875
00:54:51,205 --> 00:54:54,875
in the paraphernalia
1876
00:54:51,205 --> 00:54:54,875
of patriotism,
1877
00:54:54,917 --> 00:55:00,422
was promoted and peddled
1878
00:54:54,917 --> 00:55:00,422
at gun shows all over.
1879
00:55:03,383 --> 00:55:04,843
ZESKIND:
1880
00:55:03,383 --> 00:55:04,843
There were a number of people
1881
00:55:04,885 --> 00:55:07,138
who traveled from gun
1882
00:55:04,885 --> 00:55:07,138
show to gun show,
1883
00:55:07,179 --> 00:55:08,513
selling and trading,
1884
00:55:08,555 --> 00:55:12,350
and Timothy McVeigh
1885
00:55:08,555 --> 00:55:12,350
became one of these people.
1886
00:55:12,392 --> 00:55:15,896
And in the process
1887
00:55:12,392 --> 00:55:15,896
he met white supremacists
1888
00:55:15,938 --> 00:55:17,355
and talked to them.
1889
00:55:17,397 --> 00:55:19,191
He sold The Turner Diaries.
1890
00:55:19,233 --> 00:55:22,987
He became embroiled
1891
00:55:19,233 --> 00:55:22,987
in the larger movement.
1892
00:55:24,155 --> 00:55:28,117
MICHEL:
1893
00:55:24,155 --> 00:55:28,117
And then he shows up at Waco.
1894
00:55:28,159 --> 00:55:30,368
He can't believe it,
1895
00:55:28,159 --> 00:55:30,368
that, you know,
1896
00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:36,000
American citizens are being held
1897
00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:36,000
there by government agents.
1898
00:55:37,251 --> 00:55:39,837
And it rivets his attention.
1899
00:55:39,878 --> 00:55:42,298
MCVEIGH:
1900
00:55:39,878 --> 00:55:42,298
Who were the aggressors?
1901
00:55:42,338 --> 00:55:45,843
Koresh wasn't giving in,
1902
00:55:42,338 --> 00:55:45,843
that's true,
1903
00:55:45,884 --> 00:55:48,344
but the FBI were the aggressors,
1904
00:55:45,884 --> 00:55:48,344
okay?
1905
00:55:48,386 --> 00:55:53,976
Everything they do exudes
1906
00:55:48,386 --> 00:55:53,976
that they are at war.
1907
00:55:54,018 --> 00:55:56,270
They're a military force at war.
1908
00:55:56,312 --> 00:55:59,231
The thing is,
1909
00:55:56,312 --> 00:55:59,231
who are they at war with?
1910
00:55:59,273 --> 00:56:03,194
Well, they're at war
1911
00:55:59,273 --> 00:56:03,194
with the American people.
1912
00:56:03,235 --> 00:56:05,904
In Waco, Texas,
1913
00:56:03,235 --> 00:56:05,904
the 40th day of the siege
1914
00:56:05,946 --> 00:56:07,906
at David Koresh's compound
1915
00:56:05,946 --> 00:56:07,906
is ending
1916
00:56:07,948 --> 00:56:09,574
just like the other 39--
1917
00:56:09,616 --> 00:56:12,368
with Koresh and his followers
1918
00:56:09,616 --> 00:56:12,368
on the inside,
1919
00:56:12,410 --> 00:56:15,413
and federal agents outside
1920
00:56:12,410 --> 00:56:15,413
waiting for something to happen.
1921
00:56:15,455 --> 00:56:18,416
MAN:
1922
00:56:15,455 --> 00:56:18,416
David Koresh, pick up the phone.
1923
00:56:18,458 --> 00:56:21,086
The negotiators want to speak
1924
00:56:18,458 --> 00:56:21,086
with you.
1925
00:56:21,128 --> 00:56:24,006
SAGE:
1926
00:56:21,128 --> 00:56:24,006
As the negotiations continued,
1927
00:56:24,048 --> 00:56:28,384
the productivity of those
1928
00:56:24,048 --> 00:56:28,384
negotiations diminished,
1929
00:56:28,426 --> 00:56:32,430
mainly, I think, because David
1930
00:56:28,426 --> 00:56:32,430
was done sending out the people
1931
00:56:32,472 --> 00:56:33,724
that he intended to send out.
1932
00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939
KAT SCHROEDER:
1933
00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939
Those of us that left were
1934
00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939
leaving because
1935
00:56:40,981 --> 00:56:45,194
we were not good for the group.
1936
00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:49,907
We were not going to help
1937
00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:49,907
the group ascend.
1938
00:56:49,948 --> 00:56:52,784
So we were kicked out.
1939
00:56:56,412 --> 00:57:03,337
The last person came out of that
1940
00:56:56,412 --> 00:57:03,337
compound on the 21st of March.
1941
00:57:05,047 --> 00:57:09,218
The last child came out
1942
00:57:05,047 --> 00:57:09,218
the 5th of March.
1943
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:12,763
We were in a very difficult
1944
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:12,763
situation.
1945
00:57:12,804 --> 00:57:15,515
You know, you guys, you guys,
1946
00:57:12,804 --> 00:57:15,515
you do it your way,
1947
00:57:15,557 --> 00:57:16,892
I do it my way.
1948
00:57:16,934 --> 00:57:18,476
You're going to argue with me,
1949
00:57:18,518 --> 00:57:20,271
you catch me on the side
1950
00:57:18,518 --> 00:57:20,271
of the road somewhere,
1951
00:57:20,312 --> 00:57:21,688
and you come and argue with me.
1952
00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:23,815
You come pointing guns
1953
00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:23,815
in the direction of my wives
1954
00:57:23,857 --> 00:57:28,862
and my kids, dammit, I'll meet
1955
00:57:23,857 --> 00:57:28,862
you at the door any time.
1956
00:57:28,904 --> 00:57:30,948
Nobody's fooled here.
1957
00:57:30,989 --> 00:57:33,409
We're not negotiating, okay?
1958
00:57:33,450 --> 00:57:35,869
That's over, if it ever existed.
1959
00:57:35,911 --> 00:57:40,457
We weren't accomplishing
1960
00:57:35,911 --> 00:57:40,457
anything.
1961
00:57:40,498 --> 00:57:42,126
We were just in a situation
1962
00:57:42,167 --> 00:57:44,128
that all it could do
1963
00:57:42,167 --> 00:57:44,128
was grow worse.
1964
00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508
HANCOCK:
1965
00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508
More and more people within
1966
00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508
the bureau began to come around
1967
00:57:50,550 --> 00:57:52,636
to the idea that they needed
1968
00:57:50,550 --> 00:57:52,636
to do something
1969
00:57:52,677 --> 00:57:55,513
to force Koresh's hand.
1970
00:57:55,555 --> 00:58:00,518
So the FBI went to the attorney
1971
00:57:55,555 --> 00:58:00,518
general, Janet Reno, with a plan
1972
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,189
to use armored vehicles
1973
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,189
to knock holes into the building
1974
00:58:04,231 --> 00:58:08,319
and spray in tear gas.
1975
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:09,736
Initially she refused it.
1976
00:58:09,778 --> 00:58:11,322
She asked for more information.
1977
00:58:11,363 --> 00:58:16,243
So the FBI went back
1978
00:58:11,363 --> 00:58:16,243
with testimony
1979
00:58:16,285 --> 00:58:18,703
from former Davidians
1980
00:58:16,285 --> 00:58:18,703
of child sexual abuse
1981
00:58:18,745 --> 00:58:21,539
going on in Mt. Carmel.
1982
00:58:21,581 --> 00:58:26,337
And she saw the videotape
1983
00:58:21,581 --> 00:58:26,337
evidence of these young girls
1984
00:58:26,378 --> 00:58:29,298
with these babies,
1985
00:58:26,378 --> 00:58:29,298
and it confirmed to her
1986
00:58:29,340 --> 00:58:30,548
that this was going on.
1987
00:58:32,426 --> 00:58:37,222
At that point,
1988
00:58:32,426 --> 00:58:37,222
Janet Reno approved the plan.
1989
00:58:40,184 --> 00:58:43,020
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
1990
00:58:40,184 --> 00:58:43,020
Everybody grab your mask.
1991
00:58:43,061 --> 00:58:45,563
Everybody grab your mask.
1992
00:58:45,605 --> 00:58:48,317
SAGE:
1993
00:58:45,605 --> 00:58:48,317
A number of times early on,
1994
00:58:48,359 --> 00:58:51,569
we had gotten court-authorized
1995
00:58:48,359 --> 00:58:51,569
permission
1996
00:58:51,611 --> 00:58:54,698
to insert microphones
1997
00:58:51,611 --> 00:58:54,698
into that building.
1998
00:58:54,739 --> 00:58:58,576
That morning,
1999
00:58:54,739 --> 00:58:58,576
we couldn't hear anything live
2000
00:58:58,618 --> 00:59:02,539
because there was too much
2001
00:58:58,618 --> 00:59:02,539
noise, too much ambient noise.
2002
00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:06,835
But once the tapes are scrubbed,
2003
00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:06,835
someone clearly says,
2004
00:59:06,877 --> 00:59:09,296
"Put on your masks."
2005
00:59:09,338 --> 00:59:12,632
Shortly after that,
2006
00:59:09,338 --> 00:59:12,632
you distinctly hear
2007
00:59:12,674 --> 00:59:15,677
orders to spread the fuel.
2008
00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198
SAGE:
2009
00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198
All the while our guys
2010
00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198
were inserting tear gas,
2011
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:37,449
they were spreading fuel.
2012
00:59:37,491 --> 00:59:40,369
All morning long.
2013
00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163
JAMAR:
2014
00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163
Had we heard that,
2015
00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163
"Spread the fuel,"
2016
00:59:43,205 --> 00:59:44,789
we would have pulled back.
2017
00:59:44,831 --> 00:59:47,334
We would have pulled away.
2018
00:59:47,376 --> 00:59:49,253
And then, of course,
2019
00:59:47,376 --> 00:59:49,253
what happened,
2020
00:59:49,294 --> 00:59:52,089
it was just devastating
2021
00:59:49,294 --> 00:59:52,089
to everybody.
2022
00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:54,049
As you can see on
2023
00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:54,049
your screen,
2024
00:59:54,091 --> 00:59:56,843
there is a great deal of smoke
2025
00:59:54,091 --> 00:59:56,843
coming out from the building.
2026
00:59:56,885 --> 00:59:58,636
Let's go to Mike Capps...
2027
00:59:58,678 --> 01:00:00,347
we can also see some flames
2028
00:59:58,678 --> 01:00:00,347
there now.
2029
01:00:00,389 --> 01:00:01,723
Mike, what can you tell us?
2030
01:00:01,765 --> 01:00:03,141
What can you see?
2031
01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851
MIKE CAPPS:
2032
01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851
Well, Bonnie,
2033
01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851
for the last 15 minutes,
2034
01:00:04,893 --> 01:00:08,146
we've watched this M60 vehicle,
2035
01:00:04,893 --> 01:00:08,146
this combat engineering vehicle,
2036
01:00:08,188 --> 01:00:11,567
make large holes in the side
2037
01:00:08,188 --> 01:00:11,567
of this building
2038
01:00:11,649 --> 01:00:13,610
and pump tear gas in there.
2039
01:00:13,651 --> 01:00:16,780
Now we have a very large-scale
2040
01:00:13,651 --> 01:00:16,780
fire breaking out
2041
01:00:16,821 --> 01:00:18,532
on what must be the south side,
2042
01:00:18,574 --> 01:00:21,659
right near the front side
2043
01:00:18,574 --> 01:00:21,659
of this building.
2044
01:00:21,701 --> 01:00:23,579
POTOK:
2045
01:00:21,701 --> 01:00:23,579
I went out to the roadblock,
2046
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:27,082
and was looking through
2047
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:27,082
a friend's television camera,
2048
01:00:27,124 --> 01:00:29,167
and noticed little tiny
2049
01:00:27,124 --> 01:00:29,167
licks of flame,
2050
01:00:29,209 --> 01:00:30,377
first out of one side
2051
01:00:29,209 --> 01:00:30,377
of the building,
2052
01:00:30,419 --> 01:00:31,545
then out of the other.
2053
01:00:31,587 --> 01:00:35,549
And in a matter of
2054
01:00:31,587 --> 01:00:35,549
it seemed like seconds,
2055
01:00:35,591 --> 01:00:38,135
the building was engulfed.
2056
01:00:38,176 --> 01:00:41,138
You know, we all stood there
2057
01:00:38,176 --> 01:00:41,138
waiting to see
2058
01:00:41,179 --> 01:00:43,681
the people come out.
2059
01:00:43,723 --> 01:00:47,894
You know, there were 80 or 90
2060
01:00:43,723 --> 01:00:47,894
people in there.
2061
01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903
SAGE:
2062
01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903
As that fire continued to build,
2063
01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903
a few adults came out.
2064
01:00:56,945 --> 01:01:01,199
One of them had jumped out of
2065
01:00:56,945 --> 01:01:01,199
the second floor window,
2066
01:01:01,241 --> 01:01:04,702
and then she ran back
2067
01:01:01,241 --> 01:01:04,702
into the fire.
2068
01:01:04,744 --> 01:01:08,706
An agent started to run after
2069
01:01:04,744 --> 01:01:08,706
her, went into the building,
2070
01:01:08,748 --> 01:01:10,375
grabbed her,
2071
01:01:08,748 --> 01:01:10,375
and pulled her out,
2072
01:01:10,417 --> 01:01:12,710
and she was ready to ignite.
2073
01:01:12,752 --> 01:01:16,840
I mean, there was smoke
2074
01:01:12,752 --> 01:01:16,840
trailing off of her clothes.
2075
01:01:19,635 --> 01:01:21,678
Nine adults came out.
2076
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:25,682
Not one of them
2077
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:25,682
brought a child out.
2078
01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441
JAMAR:
2079
01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441
The part that we played
2080
01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441
cannot be ignored.
2081
01:01:34,483 --> 01:01:36,734
We provoked the circumstances,
2082
01:01:36,776 --> 01:01:41,739
but David Koresh decided
2083
01:01:36,776 --> 01:01:41,739
who was going to die.
2084
01:01:41,781 --> 01:01:44,242
What happened was to serve
2085
01:01:41,781 --> 01:01:44,242
his purpose,
2086
01:01:44,284 --> 01:01:46,537
and that's the most
2087
01:01:44,284 --> 01:01:46,537
devastating thing to me,
2088
01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:49,873
is I served his purpose
2089
01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:49,873
to a terrible degree.
2090
01:02:03,679 --> 01:02:04,971
BUFORD:
2091
01:02:03,679 --> 01:02:04,971
When I saw the fire,
2092
01:02:05,013 --> 01:02:09,059
all I could think about
2093
01:02:05,013 --> 01:02:09,059
were the children in there.
2094
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:11,186
You know, the parents had made
2095
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:11,186
their own decisions,
2096
01:02:11,228 --> 01:02:13,063
but those kids didn't make
2097
01:02:11,228 --> 01:02:13,063
any decisions.
2098
01:02:15,315 --> 01:02:18,776
I literally bawled
2099
01:02:15,315 --> 01:02:18,776
when I saw it.
2100
01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:23,532
It was Armageddon,
2101
01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:23,532
just like he said it would be.
2102
01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516
WRIGHT:
2103
01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516
At Ruby Ridge, Americans saw
2104
01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516
the deaths of two people.
2105
01:02:49,558 --> 01:02:53,437
But at Waco,
2106
01:02:49,558 --> 01:02:53,437
they saw massive deaths.
2107
01:02:53,478 --> 01:02:56,022
There were people who had
2108
01:02:53,478 --> 01:02:56,022
a legitimate argument
2109
01:02:56,064 --> 01:02:57,899
that there were all kinds
2110
01:02:56,064 --> 01:02:57,899
of mistakes made
2111
01:02:57,941 --> 01:02:59,817
and this could have ended
2112
01:02:57,941 --> 01:02:59,817
very differently.
2113
01:02:59,859 --> 01:03:04,030
But other people were saying
2114
01:02:59,859 --> 01:03:04,030
this was a government massacre
2115
01:03:04,072 --> 01:03:06,783
on a scale
2116
01:03:04,072 --> 01:03:06,783
nobody had seen before.
2117
01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:13,331
It was certainly framed
2118
01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:13,331
in this manner by the far right,
2119
01:03:13,373 --> 01:03:16,460
and the reaction
2120
01:03:13,373 --> 01:03:16,460
was almost immediate.
2121
01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:19,963
We have several witnesses
2122
01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:19,963
that say that they saw
2123
01:03:20,004 --> 01:03:22,591
25 to 30 people exiting out
2124
01:03:20,004 --> 01:03:22,591
these double doors
2125
01:03:22,633 --> 01:03:25,969
to escape the fire, and that
2126
01:03:22,633 --> 01:03:25,969
these people were gunned down
2127
01:03:26,010 --> 01:03:27,845
in cold blood
2128
01:03:26,010 --> 01:03:27,845
as they tried to escape.
2129
01:03:27,887 --> 01:03:32,434
There were several films made
2130
01:03:27,887 --> 01:03:32,434
by people on the radical right,
2131
01:03:32,476 --> 01:03:34,811
which claimed that this had been
2132
01:03:32,476 --> 01:03:34,811
a deliberate murder.
2133
01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856
HANCOCK:
2134
01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856
One of the
2135
01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856
earliest was a documentary
2136
01:03:38,898 --> 01:03:41,276
called Waco: The Big Lie.
2137
01:03:41,318 --> 01:03:44,404
The crucial footage
2138
01:03:41,318 --> 01:03:44,404
that they used
2139
01:03:44,446 --> 01:03:46,072
was footage on the day
2140
01:03:44,446 --> 01:03:46,072
of the fire,
2141
01:03:46,114 --> 01:03:49,033
where they alleged that
2142
01:03:46,114 --> 01:03:49,033
if you looked at the footage
2143
01:03:49,075 --> 01:03:51,703
the right way,
2144
01:03:49,075 --> 01:03:51,703
that you could see
2145
01:03:51,745 --> 01:03:54,706
the tanks actually setting fire
2146
01:03:51,745 --> 01:03:54,706
to the building.
2147
01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916
ARCHIVAL NARRATOR:
2148
01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916
At the same time as fire
2149
01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916
was already breaking out
2150
01:03:56,958 --> 01:03:59,252
in the back of the house,
2151
01:03:56,958 --> 01:03:59,252
as you just saw,
2152
01:03:59,294 --> 01:04:01,463
as this tank backs out,
2153
01:03:59,294 --> 01:04:01,463
flame can be seen
2154
01:04:01,505 --> 01:04:03,423
shooting from the front of it.
2155
01:04:03,465 --> 01:04:06,176
When someone could
2156
01:04:03,465 --> 01:04:06,176
package the footage
2157
01:04:06,217 --> 01:04:08,595
that had disturbed
2158
01:04:06,217 --> 01:04:08,595
everybody in America
2159
01:04:08,637 --> 01:04:14,184
with a potent message about,
2160
01:04:08,637 --> 01:04:14,184
you know, government atrocities,
2161
01:04:14,225 --> 01:04:16,353
it touched a chord.
2162
01:04:16,394 --> 01:04:19,981
You know, those who had a
2163
01:04:16,394 --> 01:04:19,981
tendency to doubt the government
2164
01:04:20,023 --> 01:04:23,568
were enraged.
2165
01:04:23,610 --> 01:04:26,904
HERBECK:
2166
01:04:23,610 --> 01:04:26,904
When the fire started at Waco,
2167
01:04:26,946 --> 01:04:30,908
Tim McVeigh was at a friend's
2168
01:04:26,946 --> 01:04:30,908
farmhouse up in Michigan.
2169
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:35,455
He was working on a vehicle
2170
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:35,455
out in the yard
2171
01:04:35,497 --> 01:04:38,375
and somebody yelled out,
2172
01:04:35,497 --> 01:04:38,375
"Tim, come in here.
2173
01:04:38,416 --> 01:04:39,876
You've got to see this on
2174
01:04:38,416 --> 01:04:39,876
television."
2175
01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421
MCVEIGH:
2176
01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421
I'm watching flames
2177
01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421
lick out windows,
2178
01:04:43,463 --> 01:04:46,383
and I'm watching
2179
01:04:43,463 --> 01:04:46,383
tanks ram walls,
2180
01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,302
and my eyes just welled up
2181
01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,302
in tears,
2182
01:04:49,344 --> 01:04:52,096
and tears started
2183
01:04:49,344 --> 01:04:52,096
coming down my cheeks
2184
01:04:52,138 --> 01:04:55,308
as I'm watching
2185
01:04:52,138 --> 01:04:55,308
this scene unfold.
2186
01:04:55,350 --> 01:04:57,894
I'm not going to shy away from
2187
01:04:55,350 --> 01:04:57,894
the word rage.
2188
01:04:57,935 --> 01:05:01,272
For me, I felt absolute rage.
2189
01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943
HERBECK:
2190
01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943
For Tim McVeigh,
2191
01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943
it was all happening
2192
01:05:05,985 --> 01:05:11,199
because of the U.S. government,
2193
01:05:05,985 --> 01:05:11,199
the biggest bully in the world.
2194
01:05:11,241 --> 01:05:13,451
(applause)
2195
01:05:13,493 --> 01:05:17,955
And just a few months later,
2196
01:05:13,493 --> 01:05:17,955
the Brady Bill passes.
2197
01:05:17,997 --> 01:05:23,253
It has a ban on several assault
2198
01:05:17,997 --> 01:05:23,253
weapons, long overdue.
2199
01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798
HERBECK:
2200
01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798
Like many people, Tim McVeigh
2201
01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798
was convinced
2202
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,718
that the Brady Bill meant
2203
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,718
that the government
2204
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,889
was going to take guns away
2205
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,889
from law-abiding citizens.
2206
01:05:33,930 --> 01:05:35,973
A ban on handgun ownership
2207
01:05:36,015 --> 01:05:39,770
and restrictions on possession
2208
01:05:36,015 --> 01:05:39,770
of handguns by minors,
2209
01:05:39,811 --> 01:05:40,729
the beginning of reform
2210
01:05:40,771 --> 01:05:43,774
of our federal firearms
2211
01:05:40,771 --> 01:05:43,774
licensing systems.
2212
01:05:43,815 --> 01:05:45,859
(applause)
2213
01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822
LEVITAS:
2214
01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822
The combination of the perceived
2215
01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822
government assassination
2216
01:05:50,864 --> 01:05:52,031
of the Weaver family,
2217
01:05:52,073 --> 01:05:56,160
the perceived military
2218
01:05:52,073 --> 01:05:56,160
government murdering
2219
01:05:56,202 --> 01:06:01,082
its own citizens in Waco,
2220
01:05:56,202 --> 01:06:01,082
and then the Brady Bill,
2221
01:06:01,124 --> 01:06:04,001
the government coming after
2222
01:06:01,124 --> 01:06:04,001
your guns,
2223
01:06:04,043 --> 01:06:09,132
just exploded the recruitment
2224
01:06:04,043 --> 01:06:09,132
of anti-government extremists.
2225
01:06:09,173 --> 01:06:12,677
We have a government
2226
01:06:09,173 --> 01:06:12,677
that is on the verge
2227
01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:15,639
of being completely out
2228
01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:15,639
of control.
2229
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,684
They allow tyrants to come in
2230
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,684
with hooded masks on,
2231
01:06:19,726 --> 01:06:23,647
unidentified,
2232
01:06:19,726 --> 01:06:23,647
bust down your door.
2233
01:06:23,688 --> 01:06:26,608
It's happened all over America.
2234
01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527
PHIL DONAHUE:
2235
01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527
This is the new thing
2236
01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527
in America.
2237
01:06:29,569 --> 01:06:31,028
It's called the militia.
2238
01:06:31,070 --> 01:06:33,156
No, they say
2239
01:06:31,070 --> 01:06:33,156
they're not racist.
2240
01:06:33,197 --> 01:06:34,866
It's not just about guns
2241
01:06:33,197 --> 01:06:34,866
and possession of guns,
2242
01:06:34,908 --> 01:06:37,619
but the 2nd Amendment's
2243
01:06:34,908 --> 01:06:37,619
involved here, definitely.
2244
01:06:37,661 --> 01:06:39,120
They're proud of
2245
01:06:37,661 --> 01:06:39,120
their 2nd amendment.
2246
01:06:39,162 --> 01:06:43,040
And by God no constable is going
2247
01:06:39,162 --> 01:06:43,040
to come from some faraway place
2248
01:06:43,082 --> 01:06:45,376
and break their
2249
01:06:43,082 --> 01:06:45,376
door down.
2250
01:06:45,418 --> 01:06:47,420
They'll shoot 'em first.
2251
01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760
ZESKIND:
2252
01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760
There had been a spurt of growth
2253
01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760
in militia organizations
2254
01:06:53,802 --> 01:06:55,971
after Ruby Ridge.
2255
01:06:56,012 --> 01:07:01,476
But Waco, and the Brady Bill,
2256
01:06:56,012 --> 01:07:01,476
accelerates the movement.
2257
01:07:01,518 --> 01:07:04,061
By the end of '93,
2258
01:07:04,103 --> 01:07:08,984
there was a huge underground of
2259
01:07:04,103 --> 01:07:08,984
armed white supremacist militias
2260
01:07:09,066 --> 01:07:13,780
all over the country,
2261
01:07:09,066 --> 01:07:13,780
all of them dedicated
2262
01:07:13,822 --> 01:07:16,700
to resistance
2263
01:07:13,822 --> 01:07:16,700
to the federal government.
2264
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915
HERBECK:
2265
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915
Tim McVeigh didn't actually
2266
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915
belong to a militia group
2267
01:07:23,957 --> 01:07:27,836
but he certainly
2268
01:07:23,957 --> 01:07:27,836
had the same opinions
2269
01:07:27,878 --> 01:07:30,797
about the government that many
2270
01:07:27,878 --> 01:07:30,797
of the militia groups had.
2271
01:07:32,757 --> 01:07:34,091
For Tim McVeigh,
2272
01:07:34,133 --> 01:07:38,346
it was all part of a massive
2273
01:07:34,133 --> 01:07:38,346
government conspiracy.
2274
01:07:38,388 --> 01:07:43,685
All these events,
2275
01:07:38,388 --> 01:07:43,685
they were all connected
2276
01:07:43,727 --> 01:07:48,231
and it was all leading down
2277
01:07:43,727 --> 01:07:48,231
a path that was going to end
2278
01:07:48,272 --> 01:07:51,609
with federal agents
2279
01:07:48,272 --> 01:07:51,609
coming to his home
2280
01:07:51,651 --> 01:07:54,988
and the homes of gun owners
2281
01:07:51,651 --> 01:07:54,988
all over America
2282
01:07:55,030 --> 01:08:00,035
and storming into those homes
2283
01:07:55,030 --> 01:08:00,035
and taking their guns away.
2284
01:08:02,161 --> 01:08:04,121
I think from that moment on,
2285
01:08:04,163 --> 01:08:08,125
he was trying to determine what
2286
01:08:04,163 --> 01:08:08,125
terrorist act to commit
2287
01:08:08,167 --> 01:08:10,879
against the U.S. government.
2288
01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728
WILLIAM PIERCE:
2289
01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728
"My day's work started a little
2290
01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728
before 5:00 yesterday
2291
01:08:26,770 --> 01:08:29,606
"when I began helping Ed Sanders
2292
01:08:26,770 --> 01:08:29,606
mix heating oil
2293
01:08:29,647 --> 01:08:35,152
with the ammonium nitrate
2294
01:08:29,647 --> 01:08:35,152
fertilizer in unit 8's garage."
2295
01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573
HERBECK:
2296
01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573
Tim McVeigh had read
2297
01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573
in The Turner Diaries
2298
01:08:38,615 --> 01:08:42,326
of how, generally, you
2299
01:08:38,615 --> 01:08:42,326
could build a truck bomb.
2300
01:08:42,368 --> 01:08:46,163
He found other articles
2301
01:08:46,205 --> 01:08:51,377
that told him exactly
2302
01:08:46,205 --> 01:08:51,377
how to build a truck bomb.
2303
01:08:51,419 --> 01:08:55,214
He wanted to do what
2304
01:08:51,419 --> 01:08:55,214
Earl Turner did:
2305
01:08:55,256 --> 01:08:57,759
take down a government building.
2306
01:09:05,224 --> 01:09:09,813
McVeigh truly believed that
2307
01:09:05,224 --> 01:09:09,813
he had two comrades in arms
2308
01:09:09,854 --> 01:09:12,523
in Terry Nichols
2309
01:09:09,854 --> 01:09:12,523
and Michael Fortier.
2310
01:09:12,565 --> 01:09:16,193
They go back to the Army.
2311
01:09:16,235 --> 01:09:19,280
They all like
2312
01:09:16,235 --> 01:09:19,280
The Turner Diaries.
2313
01:09:19,322 --> 01:09:22,659
They all shared the same
2314
01:09:19,322 --> 01:09:22,659
antigovernment thoughts.
2315
01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:27,204
They all wanted to show
2316
01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:27,204
that somebody could attack
2317
01:09:27,246 --> 01:09:30,166
the U.S. government,
2318
01:09:27,246 --> 01:09:30,166
that it was that vulnerable.
2319
01:09:32,043 --> 01:09:36,380
To get started, they knew that
2320
01:09:32,043 --> 01:09:36,380
they needed the main ingredient,
2321
01:09:36,422 --> 01:09:38,967
which was fertilizer.
2322
01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223
POTOK:
2323
01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223
They start to buy bag after bag
2324
01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223
after bag of ammonium nitrate.
2325
01:09:46,265 --> 01:09:50,227
Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols
2326
01:09:46,265 --> 01:09:50,227
break into a storage shed
2327
01:09:50,269 --> 01:09:55,316
at a quarry and they steal
2328
01:09:50,269 --> 01:09:55,316
these explosive Tovex sausages,
2329
01:09:55,358 --> 01:09:58,194
which will make the bomb
2330
01:09:55,358 --> 01:09:58,194
more powerful.
2331
01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824
HERBECK:
2332
01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824
It wasn't easy to get
2333
01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824
some of this stuff.
2334
01:10:02,866 --> 01:10:05,451
Some of the explosives
2335
01:10:02,866 --> 01:10:05,451
were not available
2336
01:10:05,493 --> 01:10:07,037
to the average citizen.
2337
01:10:07,078 --> 01:10:12,249
They spent months and months
2338
01:10:07,078 --> 01:10:12,249
getting the parts
2339
01:10:12,291 --> 01:10:14,585
of this bomb together.
2340
01:10:14,627 --> 01:10:18,339
Fortier's role was
2341
01:10:14,627 --> 01:10:18,339
very, very limited.
2342
01:10:18,381 --> 01:10:21,467
Nichols had a bigger role,
2343
01:10:21,509 --> 01:10:25,596
but, really, just following
2344
01:10:21,509 --> 01:10:25,596
orders from McVeigh.
2345
01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266
POTOK:
2346
01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266
And then, Tim McVeigh
2347
01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266
manages to get
2348
01:10:29,308 --> 01:10:34,689
some 55-gallon drums of
2349
01:10:29,308 --> 01:10:34,689
nitromethane racing fuel.
2350
01:10:34,731 --> 01:10:37,400
The bomb that was depicted
2351
01:10:34,731 --> 01:10:37,400
in The Turner Diaries
2352
01:10:37,441 --> 01:10:39,276
was ammonium nitrate
2353
01:10:37,441 --> 01:10:39,276
and fuel oil.
2354
01:10:39,318 --> 01:10:44,866
McVeigh was going to amp up his
2355
01:10:39,318 --> 01:10:44,866
bomb really dramatically
2356
01:10:44,908 --> 01:10:48,036
by using this much, much
2357
01:10:44,908 --> 01:10:48,036
more volatile fuel.
2358
01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417
HERBECK:
2359
01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417
During this time
2360
01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417
that he was driving around
2361
01:10:54,458 --> 01:10:56,293
getting his materials
2362
01:10:54,458 --> 01:10:56,293
for the bomb,
2363
01:10:56,335 --> 01:11:01,257
McVeigh was basically on this
2364
01:10:56,335 --> 01:11:01,257
anti-government odyssey.
2365
01:11:03,342 --> 01:11:12,309
He visited a militia compound,
2366
01:11:03,342 --> 01:11:12,309
he visited Area 51 in Roswell,
2367
01:11:12,351 --> 01:11:14,687
and he visited Waco.
2368
01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152
FENWICK:
2369
01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152
It was very important to him
2370
01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152
to go bear witness
2371
01:11:21,194 --> 01:11:23,738
to what had happened,
2372
01:11:23,780 --> 01:11:28,284
to make himself feel that-that
2373
01:11:23,780 --> 01:11:28,284
place and that moment.
2374
01:11:33,581 --> 01:11:35,083
It was also around this time
2375
01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:38,544
that he and Fortier and Nichols
2376
01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:38,544
began selecting
2377
01:11:38,586 --> 01:11:42,173
what was going to be the target
2378
01:11:38,586 --> 01:11:42,173
of their bomb.
2379
01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801
WRIGHT:
2380
01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801
They went to Little Rock,
2381
01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801
Arkansas.
2382
01:11:44,842 --> 01:11:47,220
They went to Tulsa.
2383
01:11:47,262 --> 01:11:49,139
They went to Dallas.
2384
01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:53,476
They picked the Murrah Building
2385
01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:53,476
in Oklahoma City, in part,
2386
01:11:53,517 --> 01:11:55,019
because the ATF,
2387
01:11:55,061 --> 01:11:58,481
who had conducted the raid
2388
01:11:55,061 --> 01:11:58,481
on the Branch Davidians,
2389
01:11:58,522 --> 01:12:01,734
had an office in the building.
2390
01:12:01,776 --> 01:12:04,361
They thought it was
2391
01:12:01,776 --> 01:12:04,361
appropriately symbolic
2392
01:12:04,403 --> 01:12:05,947
that they would go after
2393
01:12:04,403 --> 01:12:05,947
somebody
2394
01:12:05,989 --> 01:12:08,283
who was directly connected
2395
01:12:05,989 --> 01:12:08,283
to Waco.
2396
01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455
FENWICK:
2397
01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455
The Murrah Building
2398
01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455
had numerous federal offices.
2399
01:12:14,497 --> 01:12:17,374
It had HUD, it had the ATF.
2400
01:12:17,416 --> 01:12:20,628
It had general accounting
2401
01:12:17,416 --> 01:12:20,628
offices.
2402
01:12:20,670 --> 01:12:23,047
It had military recruiters,
2403
01:12:23,089 --> 01:12:24,882
the Social Security
2404
01:12:23,089 --> 01:12:24,882
Administration,
2405
01:12:24,924 --> 01:12:26,217
the DEA was in there.
2406
01:12:26,259 --> 01:12:28,761
And there is some question
2407
01:12:26,259 --> 01:12:28,761
as to whether or not
2408
01:12:28,803 --> 01:12:32,056
McVeigh knew there was
2409
01:12:28,803 --> 01:12:32,056
a day care in there,
2410
01:12:32,098 --> 01:12:33,808
but he also kind of indicated
2411
01:12:33,850 --> 01:12:36,060
that it wouldn't have made
2412
01:12:33,850 --> 01:12:36,060
the difference anyway.
2413
01:12:37,436 --> 01:12:42,108
Michael Fortier began feeling
2414
01:12:37,436 --> 01:12:42,108
uneasy about doing this.
2415
01:12:42,150 --> 01:12:46,196
He suddenly visualized
2416
01:12:42,150 --> 01:12:46,196
what was going to happen.
2417
01:12:47,905 --> 01:12:50,200
He points out that there were
2418
01:12:47,905 --> 01:12:50,200
probably going to be
2419
01:12:50,241 --> 01:12:53,410
innocent people inside
2420
01:12:50,241 --> 01:12:53,410
that are going to die.
2421
01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290
WRIGHT:
2422
01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290
McVeigh told him,
2423
01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290
"There has to be a body count."
2424
01:12:57,332 --> 01:13:02,586
He said, "The government's not
2425
01:12:57,332 --> 01:13:02,586
going to sit up and take notice
2426
01:13:02,628 --> 01:13:04,047
unless there's a body count."
2427
01:13:04,088 --> 01:13:05,798
"They can always build
2428
01:13:04,088 --> 01:13:05,798
a new building,
2429
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:07,466
but a body count
2430
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:07,466
will get their attention."
2431
01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222
MCVEIGH:
2432
01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222
From a military perspective,
2433
01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222
to get a message across,
2434
01:13:12,263 --> 01:13:17,601
you need to hurt them
2435
01:13:12,263 --> 01:13:17,601
where they hurt the most.
2436
01:13:17,643 --> 01:13:19,770
The only way they're going
2437
01:13:17,643 --> 01:13:19,770
to feel something,
2438
01:13:19,812 --> 01:13:21,856
and the only way they're going
2439
01:13:19,812 --> 01:13:21,856
to get the message
2440
01:13:21,898 --> 01:13:24,359
is with a body count.
2441
01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447
MICHEL:
2442
01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447
Tim picks April 19
2443
01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447
for the bombing
2444
01:13:30,489 --> 01:13:35,494
because it will be the
2445
01:13:30,489 --> 01:13:35,494
anniversary of the fire at Waco.
2446
01:13:35,536 --> 01:13:39,207
On Easter Sunday,
2447
01:13:35,536 --> 01:13:39,207
three days before,
2448
01:13:39,249 --> 01:13:42,459
Tim McVeigh calls Terry Nichols
2449
01:13:39,249 --> 01:13:42,459
and says it's time.
2450
01:13:42,501 --> 01:13:47,215
HERBECK:
2451
01:13:42,501 --> 01:13:47,215
He and Nichols, separately,
2452
01:13:47,257 --> 01:13:52,136
drove from Kansas
2453
01:13:47,257 --> 01:13:52,136
to Oklahoma City.
2454
01:13:52,178 --> 01:13:55,806
McVeigh took his $300
2455
01:13:52,178 --> 01:13:55,806
getaway car
2456
01:13:55,848 --> 01:13:59,476
and stashed it in a little
2457
01:13:55,848 --> 01:13:59,476
parking lot.
2458
01:13:59,518 --> 01:14:03,647
He put a sign in the window,
2459
01:13:59,518 --> 01:14:03,647
"Please Do Not Tow,"
2460
01:14:03,689 --> 01:14:08,569
and then they
2461
01:14:03,689 --> 01:14:08,569
drove back to Kansas.
2462
01:14:08,611 --> 01:14:11,572
The next day McVeigh goes alone,
2463
01:14:08,611 --> 01:14:11,572
apparently,
2464
01:14:11,614 --> 01:14:14,325
to rent a truck
2465
01:14:11,614 --> 01:14:14,325
in Junction City,
2466
01:14:14,367 --> 01:14:18,495
the big Ryder truck
2467
01:14:14,367 --> 01:14:18,495
that he will use as a bomb.
2468
01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207
HERSLEY:
2469
01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207
They asked him:
2470
01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207
"Do you need insurance on it?"
2471
01:14:21,249 --> 01:14:22,708
He said, "No, I won't need
2472
01:14:21,249 --> 01:14:22,708
any insurance."
2473
01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:24,127
And they said,
2474
01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:24,127
"Do you need any extra days?"
2475
01:14:24,168 --> 01:14:25,502
And he answered, "No,
2476
01:14:24,168 --> 01:14:25,502
I won't need any extra days."
2477
01:14:25,544 --> 01:14:29,506
We actually have him on video
2478
01:14:25,544 --> 01:14:29,506
coming in to the McDonald's
2479
01:14:29,548 --> 01:14:32,468
about a mile away from
2480
01:14:29,548 --> 01:14:32,468
where he picked up the truck.
2481
01:14:36,639 --> 01:14:40,310
HERBECK:
2482
01:14:36,639 --> 01:14:40,310
April 18 was bomb making day.
2483
01:14:40,351 --> 01:14:45,648
McVeigh drove the truck out
2484
01:14:40,351 --> 01:14:45,648
to Geary Lake State Park,
2485
01:14:45,689 --> 01:14:48,567
where they would assemble
2486
01:14:45,689 --> 01:14:48,567
the bomb.
2487
01:14:48,609 --> 01:14:50,987
He was extremely upset
2488
01:14:51,028 --> 01:14:53,697
because Nichols was starting
2489
01:14:51,028 --> 01:14:53,697
to get cold feet.
2490
01:14:53,739 --> 01:14:58,535
He threatened to kill Nichols
2491
01:14:53,739 --> 01:14:58,535
and his family
2492
01:14:58,577 --> 01:15:03,249
if Nichols refused to help him
2493
01:14:58,577 --> 01:15:03,249
with the final preparations.
2494
01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003
MCVEIGH:
2495
01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003
The bomb was primarily assembled
2496
01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003
by myself,
2497
01:15:07,044 --> 01:15:09,088
with a little assistance
2498
01:15:07,044 --> 01:15:09,088
from another,
2499
01:15:09,130 --> 01:15:12,591
who was under duress
2500
01:15:09,130 --> 01:15:12,591
to assist me.
2501
01:15:12,633 --> 01:15:14,551
I was the one that primed
2502
01:15:12,633 --> 01:15:14,551
the charges,
2503
01:15:14,593 --> 01:15:18,097
that crimped the caps to
2504
01:15:14,593 --> 01:15:18,097
the fuse, primed each barrel,
2505
01:15:18,139 --> 01:15:20,516
made sure there was
2506
01:15:18,139 --> 01:15:20,516
redundant fusing systems.
2507
01:15:20,557 --> 01:15:23,311
And it only took three hours.
2508
01:15:23,353 --> 01:15:25,688
FENWICK:
2509
01:15:23,353 --> 01:15:25,688
After they get the bomb built,
2510
01:15:25,729 --> 01:15:28,858
Terry Nichols made it very clear
2511
01:15:25,729 --> 01:15:28,858
he was not going to join McVeigh
2512
01:15:28,899 --> 01:15:30,609
the morning of the bombing.
2513
01:15:30,651 --> 01:15:35,156
And so they said goodbye, shook
2514
01:15:30,651 --> 01:15:35,156
hands, Nichols wishes him luck,
2515
01:15:35,198 --> 01:15:38,534
and then he gets in the truck
2516
01:15:35,198 --> 01:15:38,534
and he drives south.
2517
01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251
HERBECK:
2518
01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251
He was nervous as he drove
2519
01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251
into Oklahoma City,
2520
01:15:48,252 --> 01:15:52,715
but I don't think
2521
01:15:48,252 --> 01:15:52,715
he ever second-guessed himself.
2522
01:15:52,756 --> 01:15:55,051
I don't think he ever thought
2523
01:15:52,756 --> 01:15:55,051
for a minute
2524
01:15:55,092 --> 01:15:57,761
that this was the wrong thing
2525
01:15:55,092 --> 01:15:57,761
to do.
2526
01:16:00,764 --> 01:16:03,059
When he got close
2527
01:16:00,764 --> 01:16:03,059
to the building,
2528
01:16:03,100 --> 01:16:05,436
he pulled the truck over,
2529
01:16:05,478 --> 01:16:09,648
and lit two different fuses
2530
01:16:05,478 --> 01:16:09,648
leading back to the bomb.
2531
01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322
HERSLEY:
2532
01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322
The last video that
2533
01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322
we have of him was at 8:57
2534
01:16:16,364 --> 01:16:19,783
in front of the
2535
01:16:16,364 --> 01:16:19,783
Regency Tower Apartments.
2536
01:16:19,825 --> 01:16:22,119
At that point in time,
2537
01:16:19,825 --> 01:16:22,119
he was about
2538
01:16:22,161 --> 01:16:24,497
a block and a half
2539
01:16:22,161 --> 01:16:24,497
west of the Murrah Building.
2540
01:16:26,082 --> 01:16:28,376
NORFLEET:
2541
01:16:26,082 --> 01:16:28,376
As I was driving past,
2542
01:16:28,418 --> 01:16:31,003
I noticed this yellow
2543
01:16:28,418 --> 01:16:31,003
Ryder truck
2544
01:16:31,045 --> 01:16:35,299
pulled into the loading zone
2545
01:16:31,045 --> 01:16:35,299
in front of the building.
2546
01:16:35,341 --> 01:16:38,344
A young man got
2547
01:16:35,341 --> 01:16:38,344
out of the truck.
2548
01:16:38,386 --> 01:16:42,139
He had a military haircut
2549
01:16:38,386 --> 01:16:42,139
and the T-shirt, and I thought,
2550
01:16:42,181 --> 01:16:44,767
"Well, okay, that's a sergeant
2551
01:16:42,181 --> 01:16:44,767
or something
2552
01:16:44,808 --> 01:16:46,643
"checking into the command.
2553
01:16:46,685 --> 01:16:48,187
"But what in the world
2554
01:16:46,685 --> 01:16:48,187
is he doing
2555
01:16:48,229 --> 01:16:50,606
going away from the building?"
2556
01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028
MCVEIGH:
2557
01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028
I walked very slowly
2558
01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028
toward the YMCA.
2559
01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:58,948
Once I got in the blind alley
2560
01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:58,948
of the YMCA,
2561
01:16:58,989 --> 01:17:02,577
I did jog because I knew
2562
01:16:58,989 --> 01:17:02,577
nobody was looking.
2563
01:17:08,707 --> 01:17:11,627
(explosion)
2564
01:17:30,187 --> 01:17:31,647
FLOWERS:
2565
01:17:30,187 --> 01:17:31,647
Later that morning,
2566
01:17:31,688 --> 01:17:35,692
we went into the south side
2567
01:17:31,688 --> 01:17:35,692
of the building, not knowing
2568
01:17:35,734 --> 01:17:38,279
what we were fixing to walk
2569
01:17:35,734 --> 01:17:38,279
into was the daycare center.
2570
01:17:39,822 --> 01:17:42,074
The granite floor was
2571
01:17:39,822 --> 01:17:42,074
all busted and broken
2572
01:17:42,116 --> 01:17:45,244
and just, you know,
2573
01:17:42,116 --> 01:17:45,244
going every which way.
2574
01:17:45,286 --> 01:17:46,703
And as I'm fixing to go in,
2575
01:17:46,745 --> 01:17:50,707
one of the Oklahoma City
2576
01:17:46,745 --> 01:17:50,707
officers comes walking out
2577
01:17:50,749 --> 01:17:51,875
carrying a little boy.
2578
01:17:51,917 --> 01:17:53,586
It's where the elevators
2579
01:17:51,917 --> 01:17:53,586
used to be!
2580
01:17:53,628 --> 01:17:54,878
I can't.
2581
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,631
Let me have him.
2582
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,631
I can't.
2583
01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:57,756
FLOWERS:
2584
01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:57,756
And I just turned
2585
01:17:57,798 --> 01:18:01,594
and took a second breath and
2586
01:17:57,798 --> 01:18:01,594
went into the daycare center.
2587
01:18:04,597 --> 01:18:07,724
We were moving debris,
2588
01:18:04,597 --> 01:18:07,724
we were picking up boulders.
2589
01:18:07,766 --> 01:18:10,811
Literally everyone was digging
2590
01:18:07,766 --> 01:18:10,811
on their hands and knees,
2591
01:18:10,853 --> 01:18:12,396
trying to get to these kids.
2592
01:18:15,650 --> 01:18:18,277
(siren wailing)
2593
01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322
GARRETT:
2594
01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322
The children were coming out
2595
01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322
one by one.
2596
01:18:21,364 --> 01:18:24,450
Brandon was severely injured.
2597
01:18:24,492 --> 01:18:27,495
So was Nekia.
2598
01:18:27,537 --> 01:18:32,082
Rebecca, um, just seemed to me,
2599
01:18:27,537 --> 01:18:32,082
and I...
2600
01:18:32,124 --> 01:18:34,627
it just seemed as though
2601
01:18:32,124 --> 01:18:34,627
she was just dipped in blood.
2602
01:18:36,379 --> 01:18:38,255
The next baby
2603
01:18:36,379 --> 01:18:38,255
that they brought out,
2604
01:18:38,297 --> 01:18:41,342
they went to lay
2605
01:18:38,297 --> 01:18:41,342
this baby on the ground.
2606
01:18:43,302 --> 01:18:46,430
They had these perfectly folded
2607
01:18:43,302 --> 01:18:46,430
white sheets
2608
01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:48,265
and they would bring
2609
01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:48,265
another one out,
2610
01:18:48,307 --> 01:18:51,768
and they would bring another
2611
01:18:48,307 --> 01:18:51,768
one, and another one.
2612
01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:58,192
And they lay them in a line,
2613
01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:58,192
wrapped in these sheets.
2614
01:18:58,234 --> 01:19:02,863
And then a nurse came,
2615
01:18:58,234 --> 01:19:02,863
and she moved the blanket
2616
01:19:02,905 --> 01:19:05,741
back from their feet,
2617
01:19:05,782 --> 01:19:10,580
and she was writing things, and
2618
01:19:05,782 --> 01:19:10,580
she tagged their little feet.
2619
01:19:10,621 --> 01:19:14,791
And I think that's
2620
01:19:10,621 --> 01:19:14,791
when reality, you know, set in,
2621
01:19:14,833 --> 01:19:17,753
that my son Tevin's
2622
01:19:14,833 --> 01:19:17,753
not coming home.
2623
01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050
FLOWERS:
2624
01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050
When a baby's body was carried
2625
01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050
out of that building,
2626
01:19:23,092 --> 01:19:25,595
even though one person
2627
01:19:23,092 --> 01:19:25,595
carried that baby,
2628
01:19:25,636 --> 01:19:28,305
(voice breaking):
2629
01:19:25,636 --> 01:19:28,305
we all carried that baby.
2630
01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:30,474
And when we laid him down onto
2631
01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:30,474
that makeshift morgue
2632
01:19:30,516 --> 01:19:32,184
and lined those children up
2633
01:19:30,516 --> 01:19:32,184
out there,
2634
01:19:32,226 --> 01:19:34,353
that was really
2635
01:19:32,226 --> 01:19:34,353
a hard thing to see,
2636
01:19:34,395 --> 01:19:36,813
because that was all
2637
01:19:34,395 --> 01:19:36,813
of our kids.
2638
01:19:36,855 --> 01:19:39,024
That was everybody's kids.
2639
01:19:39,066 --> 01:19:40,859
That wasn't just
2640
01:19:39,066 --> 01:19:40,859
one person's child.
2641
01:19:40,901 --> 01:19:42,361
They belonged to everybody.
2642
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:56,459
The emotions that we felt and
2643
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:56,459
still feel to this day
2644
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:59,253
from what we saw was
2645
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:59,253
just remarkable.
2646
01:20:01,672 --> 01:20:05,134
And the kids that survived
2647
01:20:01,672 --> 01:20:05,134
and came through that
2648
01:20:05,175 --> 01:20:08,095
was just absolutely incredible.
2649
01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311
JIM DENNY:
2650
01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311
Our children ended up
2651
01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311
at two different hospitals.
2652
01:20:15,352 --> 01:20:17,896
And once we found them,
2653
01:20:17,938 --> 01:20:20,149
we just made up our minds
2654
01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:22,901
that Claudia was gonna be
2655
01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:22,901
with Rebecca
2656
01:20:22,943 --> 01:20:24,570
and I was gonna be with Brandon.
2657
01:20:27,531 --> 01:20:31,661
(unintelligible conversation)
2658
01:20:35,038 --> 01:20:37,667
When I got there,
2659
01:20:35,038 --> 01:20:37,667
Brandon had just had
2660
01:20:37,708 --> 01:20:40,252
a four-and-a-half-hour
2661
01:20:37,708 --> 01:20:40,252
brain surgery.
2662
01:20:40,294 --> 01:20:42,004
How's Daddy's
2663
01:20:40,294 --> 01:20:42,004
big boy, huh?
2664
01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174
DENNY:
2665
01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174
He had a piece of something
2666
01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174
blown into the upper left side
2667
01:20:45,215 --> 01:20:48,135
of his head
2668
01:20:45,215 --> 01:20:48,135
that went into his brain.
2669
01:20:50,387 --> 01:20:54,891
Dr. Reynolds, his neurosurgeon,
2670
01:20:50,387 --> 01:20:54,891
could not tell us
2671
01:20:54,933 --> 01:20:56,226
whether he'd live or not.
2672
01:20:59,855 --> 01:21:01,440
We knew for an absolute fact
2673
01:21:01,482 --> 01:21:05,152
that our children
2674
01:21:01,482 --> 01:21:05,152
were 50 feet from it.
2675
01:21:05,194 --> 01:21:07,738
50 feet from a massive bomb.
2676
01:21:10,073 --> 01:21:12,117
There was five children
2677
01:21:10,073 --> 01:21:12,117
sitting at a table
2678
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:15,871
in the daycare center,
2679
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:15,871
and one in the bathroom.
2680
01:21:15,912 --> 01:21:17,623
And those six survived.
2681
01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337
CLAUDIA DENNY:
2682
01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337
When I saw Rebecca
2683
01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337
for the first time,
2684
01:21:23,379 --> 01:21:26,923
the doctor said,
2685
01:21:23,379 --> 01:21:26,923
"She's going to be fine."
2686
01:21:26,965 --> 01:21:29,677
She has a lot of cuts, bruises,
2687
01:21:29,719 --> 01:21:32,847
and she has a broken
2688
01:21:29,719 --> 01:21:32,847
collarbone.
2689
01:21:32,888 --> 01:21:34,890
But she was alive.
2690
01:21:37,434 --> 01:21:42,231
At 9:02 that day,
2691
01:21:37,434 --> 01:21:42,231
our world ended.
2692
01:21:42,272 --> 01:21:44,734
And then when we found our kids,
2693
01:21:44,775 --> 01:21:51,281
our new world began at 4:00
2694
01:21:44,775 --> 01:21:51,281
on April 19.
2695
01:21:51,323 --> 01:21:53,743
I love you, baby.
2696
01:22:04,420 --> 01:22:05,796
How you doing today, sir?
2697
01:22:05,838 --> 01:22:06,963
We're currently conducting
2698
01:22:05,838 --> 01:22:06,963
an investigation
2699
01:22:07,005 --> 01:22:08,257
into the Oklahoma City
2700
01:22:07,005 --> 01:22:08,257
bombing.
2701
01:22:08,298 --> 01:22:10,509
Do you usually travel
2702
01:22:08,298 --> 01:22:10,509
this road very much?
2703
01:22:10,551 --> 01:22:12,428
RICKS:
2704
01:22:10,551 --> 01:22:12,428
We operate under the premise
2705
01:22:12,469 --> 01:22:15,972
that the evidence leads you
2706
01:22:12,469 --> 01:22:15,972
to where you want to go.
2707
01:22:16,014 --> 01:22:20,477
We have to gather every bit
2708
01:22:16,014 --> 01:22:20,477
of evidence that we can
2709
01:22:20,519 --> 01:22:24,523
and then start trying to form
2710
01:22:20,519 --> 01:22:24,523
hypotheses and theories
2711
01:22:24,565 --> 01:22:27,025
as to what has transpired.
2712
01:22:27,067 --> 01:22:29,111
Did you notice
2713
01:22:27,067 --> 01:22:29,111
a Ryder truck?
2714
01:22:29,152 --> 01:22:31,781
The first real break
2715
01:22:29,152 --> 01:22:31,781
of the investigation,
2716
01:22:31,822 --> 01:22:33,866
which happened within hours
2717
01:22:31,822 --> 01:22:33,866
of the bombing,
2718
01:22:33,908 --> 01:22:35,701
was we found the rear axle
2719
01:22:35,743 --> 01:22:38,995
of what turned out
2720
01:22:35,743 --> 01:22:38,995
to be the bomb truck.
2721
01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540
HERSLEY:
2722
01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540
On the rear axle assembly,
2723
01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540
there's what's called
2724
01:22:41,582 --> 01:22:44,126
a confidential vehicle
2725
01:22:41,582 --> 01:22:44,126
identification number,
2726
01:22:44,167 --> 01:22:47,003
which was PVA26077.
2727
01:22:47,045 --> 01:22:48,505
I'll never forget that number.
2728
01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929
TONGATE:
2729
01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929
We were able to trace that
2730
01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929
number to a Ryder truck
2731
01:22:54,970 --> 01:23:00,016
assigned to Elliott's Body Shop
2732
01:22:54,970 --> 01:23:00,016
in Junction City, Kansas.
2733
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978
RICKS:
2734
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978
We immediately deployed
2735
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978
special agents
2736
01:23:03,019 --> 01:23:05,397
to that Ryder truck rental shop.
2737
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:08,400
We learned that it had been
2738
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:08,400
rented by a gentleman
2739
01:23:08,442 --> 01:23:11,111
with a South Dakota driver's
2740
01:23:08,442 --> 01:23:11,111
license
2741
01:23:11,153 --> 01:23:14,907
by the name of Robert Kling.
2742
01:23:14,949 --> 01:23:19,745
We had three principal witnesses
2743
01:23:14,949 --> 01:23:19,745
there inside the truck rental.
2744
01:23:19,787 --> 01:23:24,917
They described a military type
2745
01:23:19,787 --> 01:23:24,917
person, about six foot tall,
2746
01:23:24,959 --> 01:23:28,587
thin, close shaven.
2747
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:32,549
They also believed that there
2748
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:32,549
was a second person with him,
2749
01:23:32,591 --> 01:23:34,844
so we called these John Doe
2750
01:23:32,591 --> 01:23:34,844
number one
2751
01:23:34,885 --> 01:23:36,637
and John Doe number two.
2752
01:23:38,388 --> 01:23:43,310
Our agents flooded the area
2753
01:23:38,388 --> 01:23:43,310
of Junction City.
2754
01:23:45,688 --> 01:23:48,858
One particular agent went
2755
01:23:45,688 --> 01:23:48,858
to the Dreamland Motel,
2756
01:23:48,899 --> 01:23:51,986
and he asked the manager,
2757
01:23:48,899 --> 01:23:51,986
"Has anybody been in here
2758
01:23:52,027 --> 01:23:54,196
with a Ryder truck?"
2759
01:23:54,237 --> 01:23:56,907
TONGATE:
2760
01:23:54,237 --> 01:23:56,907
She said, "Yes.
2761
01:23:56,949 --> 01:24:00,536
"I had a customer who stayed
2762
01:23:56,949 --> 01:24:00,536
here in room 25
2763
01:24:00,577 --> 01:24:03,497
"that had a Ryder truck parked
2764
01:24:00,577 --> 01:24:03,497
at the motel,
2765
01:24:03,539 --> 01:24:09,044
and I last saw him on Tuesday
2766
01:24:03,539 --> 01:24:09,044
morning, April the 18th."
2767
01:24:09,085 --> 01:24:11,922
After talking to her
2768
01:24:09,085 --> 01:24:11,922
about the Ryder truck,
2769
01:24:11,964 --> 01:24:16,301
they show her the sketch,
2770
01:24:11,964 --> 01:24:16,301
and she recognizes it.
2771
01:24:16,343 --> 01:24:18,595
She pulls out her records,
2772
01:24:18,637 --> 01:24:20,848
and for all of McVeigh's
2773
01:24:18,637 --> 01:24:20,848
planning,
2774
01:24:20,890 --> 01:24:24,142
he apparently had a moment
2775
01:24:20,890 --> 01:24:24,142
of weakness
2776
01:24:24,184 --> 01:24:28,731
and he signed his own name
2777
01:24:24,184 --> 01:24:28,731
to the register.
2778
01:24:28,772 --> 01:24:30,190
HERSLEY:
2779
01:24:28,772 --> 01:24:30,190
So that really got us.
2780
01:24:30,232 --> 01:24:32,108
We wanted to know
2781
01:24:30,232 --> 01:24:32,108
who Tim McVeigh was.
2782
01:24:32,150 --> 01:24:33,610
So what we did
2783
01:24:33,652 --> 01:24:36,154
was go into the National Crime
2784
01:24:33,652 --> 01:24:36,154
Information Center
2785
01:24:36,196 --> 01:24:38,281
and run an offline search,
2786
01:24:38,323 --> 01:24:40,409
and try to find out if anybody
2787
01:24:38,323 --> 01:24:40,409
named Tim McVeigh
2788
01:24:40,450 --> 01:24:42,118
has been arrested anywhere
2789
01:24:40,450 --> 01:24:42,118
in the United States
2790
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:43,328
in the recent past.
2791
01:24:46,206 --> 01:24:49,084
RICKS: It turns out
2792
01:24:46,206 --> 01:24:49,084
that a highway patrolman
2793
01:24:49,125 --> 01:24:53,213
has arrested someone by the name
2794
01:24:49,125 --> 01:24:53,213
of Timothy McVeigh.
2795
01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137
HERBECK:
2796
01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137
He was heading off toward Kansas
2797
01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137
in this old Mercury Marquis.
2798
01:25:01,179 --> 01:25:06,142
He'd got on the interstate, and
2799
01:25:01,179 --> 01:25:06,142
a state trooper pulled him over
2800
01:25:06,184 --> 01:25:11,941
because he had no license plate
2801
01:25:06,184 --> 01:25:11,941
on the back of his car.
2802
01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152
HANCOCK:
2803
01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152
The trooper then notices a bulge
2804
01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152
under the driver's jacket,
2805
01:25:16,194 --> 01:25:19,531
and says, "Is that a gun?"
2806
01:25:19,573 --> 01:25:21,742
The driver acknowledges,
2807
01:25:19,573 --> 01:25:21,742
"Yes, it is,"
2808
01:25:21,784 --> 01:25:24,244
and Tim McVeigh
2809
01:25:21,784 --> 01:25:24,244
is put under arrest
2810
01:25:24,286 --> 01:25:27,748
and taken to the county jail.
2811
01:25:30,250 --> 01:25:32,168
MICHEL:
2812
01:25:30,250 --> 01:25:32,168
The T-shirt he is wearing
2813
01:25:32,210 --> 01:25:36,924
says sic semper tyrannis--
2814
01:25:32,210 --> 01:25:36,924
"thus ever to tyrants."
2815
01:25:36,966 --> 01:25:41,762
It was what John Wilkes Booth
2816
01:25:36,966 --> 01:25:41,762
shouted when he shot Lincoln.
2817
01:25:43,806 --> 01:25:46,934
For two days McVeigh languished
2818
01:25:43,806 --> 01:25:46,934
in the jail
2819
01:25:46,976 --> 01:25:51,021
and nobody really knew
2820
01:25:46,976 --> 01:25:51,021
who he was.
2821
01:25:51,063 --> 01:25:55,400
Other than the fact that he was
2822
01:25:51,063 --> 01:25:55,400
illegally carrying a weapon,
2823
01:25:55,442 --> 01:26:00,530
the police had no suspicions
2824
01:25:55,442 --> 01:26:00,530
about him.
2825
01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158
RICKS:
2826
01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158
We called up the courthouse
2827
01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158
there and learned
2828
01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:06,078
that Timothy McVeigh was just
2829
01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:06,078
getting ready to appear
2830
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,456
before the judge and was about
2831
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,456
ready to be released.
2832
01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:11,207
So we said, you know,
2833
01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:11,207
"Put a hold on him.
2834
01:26:11,249 --> 01:26:12,626
We're on our way."
2835
01:26:16,005 --> 01:26:18,548
MICHEL:
2836
01:26:16,005 --> 01:26:18,548
Two federal agents interview him
2837
01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:22,011
in the Noble County
2838
01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:22,011
sheriff's office.
2839
01:26:22,052 --> 01:26:26,140
And the agents start by saying,
2840
01:26:22,052 --> 01:26:26,140
"Do you know why we're here?"
2841
01:26:26,181 --> 01:26:28,767
And McVeigh says,
2842
01:26:28,809 --> 01:26:31,854
"Does it have something to do
2843
01:26:28,809 --> 01:26:31,854
with the bombing?"
2844
01:26:37,151 --> 01:26:40,236
I am pleased to announce
2845
01:26:37,151 --> 01:26:40,236
that one of the individuals
2846
01:26:40,278 --> 01:26:44,116
believed to be responsible for
2847
01:26:40,278 --> 01:26:44,116
Wednesday's terrible attack
2848
01:26:44,158 --> 01:26:46,618
on the Murrah Federal Building
2849
01:26:44,158 --> 01:26:46,618
in Oklahoma City
2850
01:26:46,660 --> 01:26:48,537
has been arrested.
2851
01:26:50,831 --> 01:26:53,291
FENWICK: Once they know
2852
01:26:50,831 --> 01:26:53,291
they've got their guy,
2853
01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:57,796
the decision's made to take
2854
01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:57,796
him to a more secure facility.
2855
01:26:57,838 --> 01:27:00,298
The word is leaked out
2856
01:26:57,838 --> 01:27:00,298
to the press,
2857
01:27:00,340 --> 01:27:03,010
which broadcasts it on TV,
2858
01:27:03,052 --> 01:27:07,514
so people drive there
2859
01:27:03,052 --> 01:27:07,514
from all over to see this.
2860
01:27:10,308 --> 01:27:14,813
(crowd shouting, booing)
2861
01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274
POTOK:
2862
01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274
I and the rest of the country
2863
01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274
saw Timothy McVeigh
2864
01:27:18,316 --> 01:27:20,110
for the very first time.
2865
01:27:20,152 --> 01:27:23,113
And we understood
2866
01:27:20,152 --> 01:27:23,113
in a kind of flash
2867
01:27:23,155 --> 01:27:25,949
that there were enemies
2868
01:27:23,155 --> 01:27:25,949
within this country.
2869
01:27:25,991 --> 01:27:30,453
Not foreign terrorists,
2870
01:27:25,991 --> 01:27:30,453
but red-blooded Americans
2871
01:27:30,495 --> 01:27:34,875
who were engaged in a war
2872
01:27:30,495 --> 01:27:34,875
against America.
2873
01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294
FENWICK:
2874
01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294
It was just the lightning moment
2875
01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294
of recognition.
2876
01:27:38,336 --> 01:27:40,630
This was the guy in the sketch.
2877
01:27:40,672 --> 01:27:43,299
It was that guy.
2878
01:27:43,341 --> 01:27:48,097
I think everybody felt this
2879
01:27:43,341 --> 01:27:48,097
sudden sense of betrayal.
2880
01:27:48,138 --> 01:27:52,308
I think everyone thought,
2881
01:27:48,138 --> 01:27:52,308
"You're one of us."
2882
01:27:52,350 --> 01:27:54,144
REPORTER:
2883
01:27:52,350 --> 01:27:54,144
Mr. President,
2884
01:27:54,186 --> 01:27:58,774
is there a sense now, sir, that
2885
01:27:54,186 --> 01:27:58,774
this was not a foreign threat?
2886
01:27:58,815 --> 01:28:01,276
Let me say that I have never,
2887
01:28:01,317 --> 01:28:03,486
and the Justice Department has
2888
01:28:01,317 --> 01:28:03,486
never said,
2889
01:28:03,528 --> 01:28:05,614
that it was a foreign threat,
2890
01:28:05,655 --> 01:28:09,243
but the most important thing
2891
01:28:05,655 --> 01:28:09,243
that you understand
2892
01:28:09,284 --> 01:28:13,038
is that even though this is
2893
01:28:09,284 --> 01:28:13,038
a positive development,
2894
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:16,959
this investigation has a lot of
2895
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:16,959
work still to be done in it.
2896
01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:25,217
RICKS:
2897
01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:25,217
The capture of Timothy McVeigh
2898
01:28:25,259 --> 01:28:28,303
really just launched
2899
01:28:25,259 --> 01:28:28,303
the investigation.
2900
01:28:28,344 --> 01:28:30,346
The circumstances, obviously,
2901
01:28:28,344 --> 01:28:30,346
indicated
2902
01:28:30,388 --> 01:28:34,184
that he was directly involved,
2903
01:28:30,388 --> 01:28:34,184
but, you know, to what extent?
2904
01:28:35,894 --> 01:28:40,482
His driver's license had an
2905
01:28:35,894 --> 01:28:40,482
address in Decker, Michigan.
2906
01:28:40,523 --> 01:28:45,154
We dispatched agents
2907
01:28:40,523 --> 01:28:45,154
to that location
2908
01:28:45,195 --> 01:28:47,990
and we find out
2909
01:28:45,195 --> 01:28:47,990
that the gentleman there
2910
01:28:48,031 --> 01:28:51,994
by the name of James Nichols
2911
01:28:48,031 --> 01:28:51,994
had a brother, Terry,
2912
01:28:52,035 --> 01:28:56,165
presently residing
2913
01:28:52,035 --> 01:28:56,165
in Herington, Kansas.
2914
01:28:56,206 --> 01:29:00,376
We ended up executing a search
2915
01:28:56,206 --> 01:29:00,376
warrant on Terry Nichols' home
2916
01:29:00,418 --> 01:29:05,381
in Kansas, and that search
2917
01:29:00,418 --> 01:29:05,381
warrant was a gold mine.
2918
01:29:05,423 --> 01:29:11,346
In there we found a receipt for
2919
01:29:05,423 --> 01:29:11,346
2,000 pounds of fertilizer.
2920
01:29:11,387 --> 01:29:14,724
We found a cordless drill
2921
01:29:11,387 --> 01:29:14,724
that turned out to be
2922
01:29:14,766 --> 01:29:17,393
a key piece of evidence.
2923
01:29:17,435 --> 01:29:21,106
But probably the most important
2924
01:29:17,435 --> 01:29:21,106
piece of evidence
2925
01:29:21,148 --> 01:29:25,152
that we found was a calling card
2926
01:29:21,148 --> 01:29:25,152
in the name of Daryl Bridges,
2927
01:29:25,194 --> 01:29:29,948
who shared the same
2928
01:29:25,194 --> 01:29:29,948
address in Decker, Michigan.
2929
01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287
HERSLEY:
2930
01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287
There were 685 calls
2931
01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287
made on the calling card.
2932
01:29:35,329 --> 01:29:38,790
We determined where every one of
2933
01:29:35,329 --> 01:29:38,790
those calls was placed from,
2934
01:29:38,832 --> 01:29:41,417
the duration of the call,
2935
01:29:38,832 --> 01:29:41,417
and who the call was made to.
2936
01:29:41,459 --> 01:29:46,631
So we saw many calls to chemical
2937
01:29:41,459 --> 01:29:46,631
companies, to barrel companies,
2938
01:29:46,673 --> 01:29:49,801
to racetracks,
2939
01:29:46,673 --> 01:29:49,801
all kinds of places
2940
01:29:49,843 --> 01:29:52,762
Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols
2941
01:29:49,843 --> 01:29:52,762
were contacting
2942
01:29:52,804 --> 01:29:56,725
to try to acquire
2943
01:29:52,804 --> 01:29:56,725
bomb components.
2944
01:29:56,766 --> 01:29:59,435
We also found out about
2945
01:29:56,766 --> 01:29:59,435
Michael Fortier
2946
01:29:59,477 --> 01:30:01,021
through the calling card.
2947
01:30:03,273 --> 01:30:05,734
He knew more than we did
2948
01:30:03,273 --> 01:30:05,734
about the bombing.
2949
01:30:05,775 --> 01:30:08,444
He knew, for example,
2950
01:30:05,775 --> 01:30:08,444
that Tim McVeigh,
2951
01:30:08,486 --> 01:30:10,322
when he was staying at their
2952
01:30:08,486 --> 01:30:10,322
house in Kingman,
2953
01:30:10,364 --> 01:30:12,532
had taken all these soup cans
2954
01:30:10,364 --> 01:30:12,532
down from the kitchen
2955
01:30:12,574 --> 01:30:16,119
and showed Michael Fortier's
2956
01:30:12,574 --> 01:30:16,119
wife exactly how he was going
2957
01:30:16,161 --> 01:30:20,999
to construct the bomb inside
2958
01:30:16,161 --> 01:30:20,999
the back of that Ryder truck.
2959
01:30:21,041 --> 01:30:25,712
Last night, Timothy McVeigh
2960
01:30:21,041 --> 01:30:25,712
was charged in the bombing
2961
01:30:25,754 --> 01:30:28,506
of the Murrah Federal Building
2962
01:30:25,754 --> 01:30:28,506
here in Oklahoma City.
2963
01:30:28,548 --> 01:30:33,887
Two brothers, James Douglas
2964
01:30:28,548 --> 01:30:33,887
Nichols and Terry Lynn Nichols,
2965
01:30:33,929 --> 01:30:36,014
are currently in federal custody
2966
01:30:36,056 --> 01:30:38,850
and are being held
2967
01:30:36,056 --> 01:30:38,850
as material witnesses.
2968
01:30:38,892 --> 01:30:41,435
Another suspect,
2969
01:30:38,892 --> 01:30:41,435
whom we have identified
2970
01:30:41,477 --> 01:30:47,109
as John Doe number two, remains
2971
01:30:41,477 --> 01:30:47,109
unidentified and at large.
2972
01:30:47,150 --> 01:30:49,361
RICKS:
2973
01:30:47,150 --> 01:30:49,361
A mistake was made.
2974
01:30:49,403 --> 01:30:53,656
The artist conception has him
2975
01:30:49,403 --> 01:30:53,656
with a Carolina Panthers cap on.
2976
01:30:53,698 --> 01:30:57,035
It turns out that a guy had
2977
01:30:53,698 --> 01:30:57,035
happened to be
2978
01:30:57,077 --> 01:30:59,495
in the Ryder truck rental shop
2979
01:30:59,537 --> 01:31:02,082
the day before
2980
01:30:59,537 --> 01:31:02,082
Timothy McVeigh was.
2981
01:31:02,124 --> 01:31:06,544
His description is almost
2982
01:31:02,124 --> 01:31:06,544
to a T.
2983
01:31:06,586 --> 01:31:08,630
MCVEIGH:
2984
01:31:06,586 --> 01:31:08,630
Is there a John Doe two?
2985
01:31:08,671 --> 01:31:11,049
Either way I can answer it
2986
01:31:08,671 --> 01:31:11,049
should be scary
2987
01:31:11,091 --> 01:31:14,219
because, number one,
2988
01:31:11,091 --> 01:31:14,219
if there are other people,
2989
01:31:14,261 --> 01:31:16,430
that means they're still
2990
01:31:14,261 --> 01:31:16,430
out there.
2991
01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:19,891
On the other hand, if it was
2992
01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:19,891
just me, that in itself,
2993
01:31:19,933 --> 01:31:22,602
isn't that pretty scary
2994
01:31:19,933 --> 01:31:22,602
that one man could do that?
2995
01:31:22,644 --> 01:31:28,524
That's why "You can't handle the
2996
01:31:22,644 --> 01:31:28,524
truth" is the perfect line,
2997
01:31:28,566 --> 01:31:31,945
because the truth is
2998
01:31:28,566 --> 01:31:31,945
it was just me.
2999
01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538
FENWICK:
3000
01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538
The prosecution hit
3001
01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538
McVeigh's defense team
3002
01:31:42,580 --> 01:31:44,916
with everything they had.
3003
01:31:44,958 --> 01:31:49,963
Michael Fortier's testimony
3004
01:31:44,958 --> 01:31:49,963
was crucial and damning,
3005
01:31:50,005 --> 01:31:54,384
but he also told
3006
01:31:50,005 --> 01:31:54,384
a very poignant story.
3007
01:31:54,426 --> 01:31:57,137
He talked about how he would
3008
01:31:54,426 --> 01:31:57,137
have a dream at night
3009
01:31:57,179 --> 01:32:00,098
that he was calling people
3010
01:31:57,179 --> 01:32:00,098
to warn them,
3011
01:32:00,140 --> 01:32:03,768
and then he'd wake up,
3012
01:32:00,140 --> 01:32:03,768
and he was in jail,
3013
01:32:03,810 --> 01:32:05,687
and he hadn't made the call,
3014
01:32:05,728 --> 01:32:09,523
and that people were dead
3015
01:32:05,728 --> 01:32:09,523
because of him.
3016
01:32:12,652 --> 01:32:16,572
I was the second witness
3017
01:32:12,652 --> 01:32:16,572
in the trial,
3018
01:32:16,614 --> 01:32:19,575
and as I sat in
3019
01:32:16,614 --> 01:32:19,575
that witness stand,
3020
01:32:19,617 --> 01:32:25,581
it seemed just like an arm's
3021
01:32:19,617 --> 01:32:25,581
reach away was Timothy McVeigh.
3022
01:32:25,623 --> 01:32:29,627
He did look me in the eyes,
3023
01:32:25,623 --> 01:32:29,627
and he did try to intimidate me,
3024
01:32:29,669 --> 01:32:32,588
but I was far
3025
01:32:29,669 --> 01:32:32,588
from being intimidated.
3026
01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261
GARRETT:
3027
01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261
When I had to testify,
3028
01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261
and people would ask later,
3029
01:32:38,303 --> 01:32:40,596
"How did you sit in
3030
01:32:38,303 --> 01:32:40,596
the room with the man
3031
01:32:40,638 --> 01:32:42,140
who murdered your son?"
3032
01:32:42,182 --> 01:32:45,601
And I told them my story
3033
01:32:42,182 --> 01:32:45,601
is more powerful
3034
01:32:45,643 --> 01:32:46,978
than me yelling at him.
3035
01:32:47,020 --> 01:32:52,234
My story is more powerful
3036
01:32:47,020 --> 01:32:52,234
than my fist.
3037
01:32:52,275 --> 01:32:54,861
I'm not going to go
3038
01:32:52,275 --> 01:32:54,861
to his level.
3039
01:32:54,903 --> 01:32:57,906
You know, I deserve better;
3040
01:32:54,903 --> 01:32:57,906
Tevin deserved better.
3041
01:32:57,947 --> 01:33:02,576
Every victim of the bombing
3042
01:32:57,947 --> 01:33:02,576
deserved better than that.
3043
01:33:16,799 --> 01:33:20,345
McVeigh all along wanted
3044
01:33:16,799 --> 01:33:20,345
a necessity defense,
3045
01:33:20,387 --> 01:33:23,056
that he had no choice
3046
01:33:20,387 --> 01:33:23,056
but to bomb to building.
3047
01:33:23,098 --> 01:33:28,311
He did not want to claim
3048
01:33:23,098 --> 01:33:28,311
some widespread conspiracy,
3049
01:33:28,353 --> 01:33:32,857
which members of
3050
01:33:28,353 --> 01:33:32,857
the defense team wanted.
3051
01:33:32,899 --> 01:33:34,901
McVeigh wanted no part of that
3052
01:33:34,943 --> 01:33:37,653
because, number one,
3053
01:33:34,943 --> 01:33:37,653
it wasn't true
3054
01:33:37,695 --> 01:33:40,031
and, number two,
3055
01:33:40,073 --> 01:33:43,659
he did want credit
3056
01:33:40,073 --> 01:33:43,659
for this thing he had done.
3057
01:33:43,701 --> 01:33:49,416
And no evidence has ever
3058
01:33:43,701 --> 01:33:49,416
surfaced that anybody but him,
3059
01:33:49,458 --> 01:33:54,296
with-with a little bit of help
3060
01:33:49,458 --> 01:33:54,296
from his two Army buddies,
3061
01:33:54,337 --> 01:33:56,672
pulled this off.
3062
01:33:56,714 --> 01:33:58,341
He built this bomb.
3063
01:33:58,383 --> 01:34:03,888
He designed it, he built it,
3064
01:33:58,383 --> 01:34:03,888
and he was proud of that.
3065
01:34:03,930 --> 01:34:07,517
ZESKIND:
3066
01:34:03,930 --> 01:34:07,517
There was no massive conspiracy.
3067
01:34:07,559 --> 01:34:10,479
That much is clear.
3068
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:15,567
But the idea that Timothy
3069
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:15,567
McVeigh was a lone killer
3070
01:34:15,609 --> 01:34:19,279
is wrong-headed because it
3071
01:34:15,609 --> 01:34:19,279
absolves the movement
3072
01:34:19,321 --> 01:34:21,364
from which it all sprang.
3073
01:34:21,406 --> 01:34:25,701
Timothy McVeigh
3074
01:34:21,406 --> 01:34:25,701
was not on his own.
3075
01:34:25,743 --> 01:34:29,998
He was a creation of the
3076
01:34:25,743 --> 01:34:29,998
white supremacist movement.
3077
01:34:30,039 --> 01:34:33,042
He carried The Turner Diaries
3078
01:34:30,039 --> 01:34:33,042
around
3079
01:34:33,084 --> 01:34:34,710
and read it to people.
3080
01:34:34,752 --> 01:34:38,173
He lived at the gun shows.
3081
01:34:38,214 --> 01:34:42,260
He met Neo-Nazis
3082
01:34:38,214 --> 01:34:42,260
and visited with them.
3083
01:34:42,302 --> 01:34:45,305
He was part of this movement.
3084
01:34:45,347 --> 01:34:48,266
And the idea that
3085
01:34:45,347 --> 01:34:48,266
there was no connection
3086
01:34:48,308 --> 01:34:50,393
between the white supremacist
3087
01:34:48,308 --> 01:34:50,393
movement
3088
01:34:50,435 --> 01:34:54,564
and the events in Oklahoma City
3089
01:34:50,435 --> 01:34:54,564
is patently false.
3090
01:34:54,606 --> 01:34:59,735
There was a strong connection,
3091
01:34:54,606 --> 01:34:59,735
and it was a deep connection.
3092
01:35:02,405 --> 01:35:03,990
WRIGHT:
3093
01:35:02,405 --> 01:35:03,990
When the verdict was read,
3094
01:35:04,032 --> 01:35:05,992
McVeigh's demeanor
3095
01:35:04,032 --> 01:35:05,992
didn't change at all.
3096
01:35:06,034 --> 01:35:07,536
He didn't even blink.
3097
01:35:07,577 --> 01:35:11,956
I think he fully expected
3098
01:35:07,577 --> 01:35:11,956
to get the verdict
3099
01:35:11,998 --> 01:35:14,750
and he fully expected
3100
01:35:11,998 --> 01:35:14,750
to get the death penalty,
3101
01:35:14,792 --> 01:35:17,128
and he expected to die
3102
01:35:17,170 --> 01:35:20,048
because I think he
3103
01:35:17,170 --> 01:35:20,048
wanted to be a martyr.
3104
01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889
FENWICK:
3105
01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889
He thought he was starting
3106
01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889
the next American Revolution.
3107
01:35:27,930 --> 01:35:31,393
I think he did
3108
01:35:27,930 --> 01:35:31,393
exactly the opposite,
3109
01:35:31,434 --> 01:35:35,605
because he showed the human face
3110
01:35:35,647 --> 01:35:40,818
of what it really
3111
01:35:35,647 --> 01:35:40,818
means to attack a government,
3112
01:35:40,860 --> 01:35:42,654
a government of the people.
3113
01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:48,117
SCHWAB:
3114
01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:48,117
We were the government.
3115
01:35:48,159 --> 01:35:50,078
We weren't bad guys.
3116
01:35:50,119 --> 01:35:58,169
We were mothers and fathers
3117
01:35:50,119 --> 01:35:58,169
and daughters and sons
3118
01:35:58,211 --> 01:36:02,549
and grandparents
3119
01:35:58,211 --> 01:36:02,549
who had a job to do.
3120
01:36:04,884 --> 01:36:08,430
Supposedly you don't have
3121
01:36:04,884 --> 01:36:08,430
job satisfaction
3122
01:36:08,471 --> 01:36:10,557
if you work for the government.
3123
01:36:10,599 --> 01:36:14,561
I never heard that type of talk
3124
01:36:10,599 --> 01:36:14,561
in our office.
3125
01:36:14,603 --> 01:36:16,770
We were very proud
3126
01:36:14,603 --> 01:36:16,770
of what we did.
3127
01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:31,160
MCVEIGH:
3128
01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:31,160
Death penalty is...
3129
01:36:31,202 --> 01:36:33,580
would you call it an oxymoron?
3130
01:36:33,622 --> 01:36:37,833
Death is not a penalty,
3131
01:36:33,622 --> 01:36:37,833
it's an escape.
3132
01:36:37,875 --> 01:36:39,628
They treat me like a trophy,
3133
01:36:39,669 --> 01:36:42,505
like they've got me, they're
3134
01:36:39,669 --> 01:36:42,505
gonna kill me, "We've won."
3135
01:36:42,547 --> 01:36:45,091
They didn't win.
3136
01:36:45,133 --> 01:36:49,429
In the crudest terms: 168-1.
3137
01:37:04,402 --> 01:37:07,572
NORFLEET:
3138
01:37:04,402 --> 01:37:07,572
He died without a word.
3139
01:37:07,614 --> 01:37:09,865
There was no pain.
3140
01:37:09,907 --> 01:37:12,327
There was no regret.
3141
01:37:12,368 --> 01:37:14,329
Because I looked into his eyes
3142
01:37:14,370 --> 01:37:16,872
before they were closed
3143
01:37:14,370 --> 01:37:16,872
that last time,
3144
01:37:16,914 --> 01:37:21,877
and saw the same deep anger
3145
01:37:16,914 --> 01:37:21,877
and resentment and rage
3146
01:37:21,919 --> 01:37:27,133
that I had seen in that trial
3147
01:37:21,919 --> 01:37:27,133
several years before.
3148
01:37:30,928 --> 01:37:33,222
FLOWERS:
3149
01:37:30,928 --> 01:37:33,222
Justice was served.
3150
01:37:33,264 --> 01:37:35,266
That don't bring them back.
3151
01:37:35,308 --> 01:37:37,435
It just won't bring them back.
3152
01:37:37,477 --> 01:37:40,396
But it closes a door
3153
01:37:37,477 --> 01:37:40,396
on that chapter,
3154
01:37:40,438 --> 01:37:41,897
and that's exactly
3155
01:37:40,438 --> 01:37:41,897
what happened
3156
01:37:41,939 --> 01:37:45,735
when they lowered the boom
3157
01:37:41,939 --> 01:37:45,735
down on Timothy McVeigh.
3158
01:37:51,157 --> 01:37:53,576
JIM DENNY:
3159
01:37:51,157 --> 01:37:53,576
We didn't go to the execution.
3160
01:37:53,618 --> 01:37:56,663
We had no time to worry
3161
01:37:53,618 --> 01:37:56,663
about that.
3162
01:37:58,832 --> 01:38:02,918
Our total focus, regardless
3163
01:37:58,832 --> 01:38:02,918
of whatever it took,
3164
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:04,170
was our children.
3165
01:38:04,212 --> 01:38:06,880
Our children and our family.
3166
01:38:08,966 --> 01:38:11,803
CLAUDIA DENNY:
3167
01:38:08,966 --> 01:38:11,803
We were very blessed.
3168
01:38:11,845 --> 01:38:14,930
But it's been hard for us.
3169
01:38:14,972 --> 01:38:19,060
I mean to watch Brandon
3170
01:38:14,972 --> 01:38:19,060
struggle, as he's struggled,
3171
01:38:19,101 --> 01:38:21,354
for the last 20 years.
3172
01:38:21,396 --> 01:38:25,817
Faith, family, and friends--
3173
01:38:25,859 --> 01:38:30,154
that's how we survived
3174
01:38:25,859 --> 01:38:30,154
through all of this.
3175
01:38:30,196 --> 01:38:33,783
But also it makes me
3176
01:38:30,196 --> 01:38:33,783
wonder why a little bit.
3177
01:38:33,825 --> 01:38:35,951
I mean, I don't question
3178
01:38:33,825 --> 01:38:35,951
it all the time,
3179
01:38:35,993 --> 01:38:38,830
but sometimes I question why.
3180
01:38:38,872 --> 01:38:43,626
And I do have a little bit
3181
01:38:38,872 --> 01:38:43,626
of the survivor guilt
3182
01:38:43,668 --> 01:38:47,921
that my children survived
3183
01:38:43,668 --> 01:38:47,921
and some of the others didn't.
3184
01:38:47,963 --> 01:38:50,884
(siren wailing)
3185
01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769
GARRETT:
3186
01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769
I still have hope that no one
3187
01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769
ever again becomes so enraged
3188
01:39:00,810 --> 01:39:05,440
with hatred and prejudice
3189
01:39:00,810 --> 01:39:05,440
and judgment
3190
01:39:05,481 --> 01:39:11,987
that they think the only thing
3191
01:39:05,481 --> 01:39:11,987
to do is to kill
3192
01:39:12,029 --> 01:39:14,990
and harm other people.
3193
01:39:15,032 --> 01:39:20,872
I have hope that through
3194
01:39:15,032 --> 01:39:20,872
all of this
3195
01:39:20,914 --> 01:39:26,461
that love is stronger
3196
01:39:20,914 --> 01:39:26,461
than any terrorist attack.
3197
01:39:29,046 --> 01:39:32,258
I have hope that that would
3198
01:39:29,046 --> 01:39:32,258
never happen again.
3199
01:40:27,062 --> 01:40:29,022
♪ ♪
3200
01:41:49,729 --> 01:41:51,480
♪ ♪
184907
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.