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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:01,543 --> 00:00:04,045 Support from viewers like you 2 00:00:01,543 --> 00:00:04,045 makes this program possible. 3 00:00:04,087 --> 00:00:06,047 Please give to your 4 00:00:04,087 --> 00:00:06,047 PBS station. 5 00:00:09,092 --> 00:00:11,595 WOMAN: 6 00:00:09,092 --> 00:00:11,595 ...whether to approve or deny 7 00:00:09,092 --> 00:00:11,595 the application. 8 00:00:11,637 --> 00:00:13,931 They're the decision-makers. 9 00:00:13,973 --> 00:00:17,309 And you will receive a copy 10 00:00:13,973 --> 00:00:17,309 of my proposed recommendation 11 00:00:17,351 --> 00:00:19,019 and can attend 12 00:00:17,351 --> 00:00:19,019 that board meeting 13 00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:22,063 and present your information 14 00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:22,063 directly to them. 15 00:00:22,105 --> 00:00:23,524 With regard 16 00:00:22,105 --> 00:00:23,524 to this proceeding, 17 00:00:23,565 --> 00:00:25,776 basically, 18 00:00:23,565 --> 00:00:25,776 there are four elements 19 00:00:25,818 --> 00:00:28,779 that I have to... 20 00:00:28,821 --> 00:00:30,322 Receive information 21 00:00:28,821 --> 00:00:30,322 regarding... 22 00:00:30,364 --> 00:00:38,580 (explosion roaring) 23 00:00:38,622 --> 00:00:40,081 Everybody, 24 00:00:38,622 --> 00:00:40,081 let's get out of here. 25 00:00:40,123 --> 00:00:41,500 Now! 26 00:00:41,542 --> 00:00:43,919 Watch the electricity line! 27 00:00:43,961 --> 00:00:45,671 REPORTER: 28 00:00:43,961 --> 00:00:45,671 All that I can see, 29 00:00:45,713 --> 00:00:47,297 it looks like part 30 00:00:45,713 --> 00:00:47,297 of the building 31 00:00:47,339 --> 00:00:49,675 has been blown away. 32 00:00:49,717 --> 00:00:51,050 We'll have to bank 33 00:00:49,717 --> 00:00:51,050 around the other side 34 00:00:51,092 --> 00:00:53,178 so I can get a better view 35 00:00:51,092 --> 00:00:53,178 of it. 36 00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:55,263 The explosion, though, 37 00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:55,263 went off around 9 a.m., 38 00:00:55,305 --> 00:00:59,059 and we could feel the explosion 39 00:00:55,305 --> 00:00:59,059 in the newsroom of Channel 9 40 00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:02,229 at least 41 00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:02,229 five miles from downtown. 42 00:01:02,270 --> 00:01:04,857 ANCHOR: 43 00:01:02,270 --> 00:01:04,857 As the chopper goes around the 44 00:01:02,270 --> 00:01:04,857 side of the Federal Building... 45 00:01:04,899 --> 00:01:05,900 REPORTER: 46 00:01:04,899 --> 00:01:05,900 Jeez, wow! 47 00:01:05,941 --> 00:01:07,442 ANCHOR: 48 00:01:05,941 --> 00:01:07,442 Look at that shot. 49 00:01:07,484 --> 00:01:09,028 It is absolutely incredible. 50 00:01:09,069 --> 00:01:11,112 The side of the Federal Building 51 00:01:09,069 --> 00:01:11,112 has been blown off. 52 00:01:11,154 --> 00:01:12,113 Jesse? 53 00:01:12,155 --> 00:01:14,324 REPORTER: 54 00:01:12,155 --> 00:01:14,324 About a third... 55 00:01:14,366 --> 00:01:17,703 About a third of the 56 00:01:14,366 --> 00:01:17,703 building has been blown away. 57 00:01:17,745 --> 00:01:19,788 This is just devastating. 58 00:02:11,256 --> 00:02:14,676 MAN: 59 00:02:11,256 --> 00:02:14,676 That morning, 60 00:02:11,256 --> 00:02:14,676 I was not in my office. 61 00:02:14,718 --> 00:02:21,308 I was at a fundraiser 62 00:02:14,718 --> 00:02:21,308 about 30 miles away. 63 00:02:21,349 --> 00:02:23,811 We had a 9:00 start, 64 00:02:23,852 --> 00:02:26,229 when all of a sudden, 65 00:02:23,852 --> 00:02:26,229 my phone went off, 66 00:02:26,271 --> 00:02:29,566 and I was told that there'd been 67 00:02:26,271 --> 00:02:29,566 some type of an explosion 68 00:02:29,608 --> 00:02:32,069 at the Murrah Building. 69 00:02:32,111 --> 00:02:33,320 The greatest fear I have 70 00:02:33,361 --> 00:02:36,907 is that we have casualties 71 00:02:33,361 --> 00:02:36,907 in the thousands. 72 00:02:36,949 --> 00:02:38,199 At any one time, 73 00:02:36,949 --> 00:02:38,199 there could be 74 00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:41,453 a couple of thousand people 75 00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:41,453 in that building. 76 00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:49,210 MAN: 77 00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:49,210 I was assigned to the Oklahoma 78 00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:49,210 City police tactical team 79 00:02:49,252 --> 00:02:51,254 at the time. 80 00:02:51,296 --> 00:02:54,215 And we immediately started 81 00:02:51,296 --> 00:02:54,215 working our way 82 00:02:54,257 --> 00:02:55,926 towards the building. 83 00:02:55,968 --> 00:02:57,218 There were several vehicles 84 00:02:57,260 --> 00:02:59,721 on the north side of the 85 00:02:57,260 --> 00:02:59,721 building in a parking lot, 86 00:02:59,763 --> 00:03:02,933 and all of them were burning. 87 00:03:02,975 --> 00:03:05,978 The black smoke 88 00:03:02,975 --> 00:03:05,978 was billowing up. 89 00:03:08,355 --> 00:03:10,649 When I walked up there, 90 00:03:08,355 --> 00:03:10,649 there was a hole in the ground 91 00:03:10,691 --> 00:03:12,901 about the size 92 00:03:10,691 --> 00:03:12,901 of a swimming pool 93 00:03:12,943 --> 00:03:14,611 that looked like about 30 feet 94 00:03:12,943 --> 00:03:14,611 in diameter 95 00:03:14,653 --> 00:03:16,155 and about seven, 96 00:03:14,653 --> 00:03:16,155 eight feet deep. 97 00:03:16,195 --> 00:03:17,698 Just a big hole in the ground. 98 00:03:17,739 --> 00:03:20,117 That's when it started 99 00:03:17,739 --> 00:03:20,117 really sinking in, 100 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,078 this had to be 101 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,078 some kind of bomb. 102 00:03:27,124 --> 00:03:28,416 WOMAN: 103 00:03:27,124 --> 00:03:28,416 When I first got there, 104 00:03:28,458 --> 00:03:31,378 I could see people trapped 105 00:03:28,458 --> 00:03:31,378 on different floors, 106 00:03:31,419 --> 00:03:35,049 and they needed to be rescued. 107 00:03:35,090 --> 00:03:39,344 And so I started my way 108 00:03:35,090 --> 00:03:39,344 into the building. 109 00:03:39,386 --> 00:03:40,721 I thought to myself, 110 00:03:40,762 --> 00:03:42,472 "Why Oklahoma City? 111 00:03:42,514 --> 00:03:44,183 "It's a quiet place. 112 00:03:44,224 --> 00:03:45,600 "Nothing happens here. 113 00:03:45,642 --> 00:03:49,229 It's not supposed 114 00:03:45,642 --> 00:03:49,229 to happen here." 115 00:03:51,857 --> 00:03:54,068 WOMAN: 116 00:03:51,857 --> 00:03:54,068 Yeah, we'd always had threats. 117 00:03:54,109 --> 00:03:55,569 You tell somebody, 118 00:03:55,610 --> 00:03:57,196 "I'm sorry, but," you know, 119 00:03:57,237 --> 00:03:59,406 "your claim's denied," 120 00:03:57,237 --> 00:03:59,406 or whatever, 121 00:03:59,447 --> 00:04:04,078 and, yeah, and we'd get threats, 122 00:03:59,447 --> 00:04:04,078 but not... 123 00:04:04,119 --> 00:04:06,788 Not anything that we ever 124 00:04:04,119 --> 00:04:06,788 considered, you know, viable. 125 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:08,373 There has been 126 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:08,373 a massive explosion 127 00:04:08,415 --> 00:04:11,960 at a federal building 128 00:04:08,415 --> 00:04:11,960 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. 129 00:04:12,002 --> 00:04:13,294 It happened 130 00:04:12,002 --> 00:04:13,294 just a short time ago. 131 00:04:13,336 --> 00:04:15,338 A large portion of that building 132 00:04:13,336 --> 00:04:15,338 has collapsed 133 00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:17,298 and fallen away from the rest 134 00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:17,298 of the building. 135 00:04:17,340 --> 00:04:19,384 At the moment, we don't have 136 00:04:17,340 --> 00:04:19,384 any specific numbers 137 00:04:19,426 --> 00:04:21,136 on injuries or deaths, 138 00:04:21,178 --> 00:04:26,183 but we can tell you that the 139 00:04:21,178 --> 00:04:26,183 situation is obviously serious. 140 00:04:26,225 --> 00:04:29,019 WOMAN: 141 00:04:26,225 --> 00:04:29,019 I tried to put the building 142 00:04:26,225 --> 00:04:29,019 back in my mind, 143 00:04:29,061 --> 00:04:31,105 of, where would he be? 144 00:04:31,146 --> 00:04:35,692 If I have to dig for my son, 145 00:04:31,146 --> 00:04:35,692 where should I dig? 146 00:04:35,734 --> 00:04:37,360 And so, that's what I did. 147 00:04:37,402 --> 00:04:41,322 I visualized the first floor, 148 00:04:37,402 --> 00:04:41,322 the second floor, 149 00:04:41,364 --> 00:04:43,784 the childcare was here, 150 00:04:41,364 --> 00:04:43,784 his crib would be here, 151 00:04:43,825 --> 00:04:45,410 and that's where I wanted 152 00:04:43,825 --> 00:04:45,410 to get to. 153 00:04:45,452 --> 00:04:49,831 As I started to climb up 154 00:04:45,452 --> 00:04:49,831 the debris and the rubble, 155 00:04:49,873 --> 00:04:51,332 I remember a man yelling, 156 00:04:51,374 --> 00:04:53,585 "You can't go up there, 157 00:04:51,374 --> 00:04:53,585 it's too dangerous!" 158 00:04:53,627 --> 00:04:57,505 And I remember telling him, 159 00:04:53,627 --> 00:04:57,505 "Our babies are in there! 160 00:04:57,547 --> 00:05:00,175 Our babies are in there!" 161 00:05:00,217 --> 00:05:03,678 I just kept saying, 162 00:05:00,217 --> 00:05:03,678 "Our babies are in there." 163 00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:10,351 WOMAN: 164 00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:10,351 When I saw the building 165 00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:10,351 for the first time, 166 00:05:10,393 --> 00:05:13,272 I just couldn't see 167 00:05:13,354 --> 00:05:16,357 how anybody could have survived 168 00:05:13,354 --> 00:05:16,357 any of that. 169 00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:18,819 So at that point, 170 00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:18,819 I think my mind was thinking, 171 00:05:18,860 --> 00:05:20,320 "My kids are gone." 172 00:05:24,491 --> 00:05:28,328 MAN: 173 00:05:24,491 --> 00:05:28,328 I drove down there 174 00:05:24,491 --> 00:05:28,328 and met Claudia. 175 00:05:28,369 --> 00:05:30,538 We walked up to a perimeter 176 00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:32,082 and I asked a officer, I said, 177 00:05:32,124 --> 00:05:34,417 "We have two, two babies 178 00:05:32,124 --> 00:05:34,417 in the daycare center. 179 00:05:34,459 --> 00:05:36,544 Can I, can I go in?" 180 00:05:36,586 --> 00:05:38,964 OFFICER (in distance): 181 00:05:36,586 --> 00:05:38,964 Move back, move back, move back. 182 00:05:39,006 --> 00:05:40,381 Move back, move back. 183 00:05:40,423 --> 00:05:41,925 JIM DENNY: 184 00:05:40,423 --> 00:05:41,925 I could see people 185 00:05:41,967 --> 00:05:46,888 that are covered 186 00:05:41,967 --> 00:05:46,888 with blankets, towels, whatever, 187 00:05:46,930 --> 00:05:48,389 that are gone. 188 00:05:48,431 --> 00:05:51,518 And I'm praying that one of them 189 00:05:48,431 --> 00:05:51,518 is not a small child. 190 00:05:57,565 --> 00:06:00,401 MAN: 191 00:05:57,565 --> 00:06:00,401 I knew a lot of the people 192 00:05:57,565 --> 00:06:00,401 in the building. 193 00:06:00,443 --> 00:06:03,197 I knew the D.E.A. agents 194 00:06:00,443 --> 00:06:03,197 that were in the building, 195 00:06:03,238 --> 00:06:06,407 I knew the ATF agents 196 00:06:03,238 --> 00:06:06,407 that were in the building, 197 00:06:06,449 --> 00:06:10,162 and those people 198 00:06:06,449 --> 00:06:10,162 were friends of mine. 199 00:06:10,204 --> 00:06:12,413 I could not believe 200 00:06:10,204 --> 00:06:12,413 what had happened to all of them 201 00:06:12,455 --> 00:06:13,748 and how this could be. 202 00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:18,170 How could somebody get 203 00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:18,170 to that state in their life 204 00:06:18,212 --> 00:06:20,463 where they could be 205 00:06:18,212 --> 00:06:20,463 so angry and upset 206 00:06:20,505 --> 00:06:22,216 that they would do something 207 00:06:20,505 --> 00:06:22,216 like this? 208 00:06:31,432 --> 00:06:32,809 MAN: 209 00:06:31,432 --> 00:06:32,809 Who started the war? 210 00:06:32,851 --> 00:06:34,311 And who was the aggressor? 211 00:06:34,353 --> 00:06:38,357 That's how I look 212 00:06:34,353 --> 00:06:38,357 at the Murrah bombing. 213 00:06:38,397 --> 00:06:41,568 To me, it wasn't a start 214 00:06:38,397 --> 00:06:41,568 of a war, 215 00:06:41,609 --> 00:06:43,778 it was a counterattack. 216 00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,365 The war had already been 217 00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,365 started. 218 00:06:46,405 --> 00:06:47,824 You guys think 219 00:06:46,405 --> 00:06:47,824 you can be ruthless? 220 00:06:47,866 --> 00:06:50,409 Let's see how you like it 221 00:06:47,866 --> 00:06:50,409 when the... 222 00:06:50,451 --> 00:06:52,829 when the fight 223 00:06:50,451 --> 00:06:52,829 is brought to you. 224 00:06:52,871 --> 00:06:57,625 If you continue with shit 225 00:06:52,871 --> 00:06:57,625 like Ruby Ridge and Waco, 226 00:06:57,667 --> 00:06:59,627 this is what's going to happen. 227 00:07:16,103 --> 00:07:17,729 MAN: 228 00:07:16,103 --> 00:07:17,729 Northern Idaho. 229 00:07:17,771 --> 00:07:21,900 It's a remote place, it's 230 00:07:17,771 --> 00:07:21,900 a predominantly white place, 231 00:07:21,942 --> 00:07:23,777 and it's the kind of place 232 00:07:23,818 --> 00:07:28,656 where everybody sort of minds 233 00:07:23,818 --> 00:07:28,656 their own business. 234 00:07:28,698 --> 00:07:33,494 In the 1980s, a lot of extremist 235 00:07:28,698 --> 00:07:33,494 groups found a sanctuary there. 236 00:07:36,998 --> 00:07:37,958 White power! 237 00:07:37,999 --> 00:07:38,959 MAN: 238 00:07:37,999 --> 00:07:38,959 What do we need? 239 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,501 ALL: 240 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,501 White power! 241 00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755 MAN: 242 00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755 One of those groups 243 00:07:40,543 --> 00:07:43,755 was the Aryan Nations. 244 00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512 MAN: 245 00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512 The Aryan Nations had 246 00:07:49,677 --> 00:07:51,512 established itself 247 00:07:51,554 --> 00:07:55,892 in Hayden Lake as a sort 248 00:07:51,554 --> 00:07:55,892 of headquarters of hate, 249 00:07:55,934 --> 00:07:59,520 radical right-wing hate. 250 00:07:59,562 --> 00:08:01,856 MAN: 251 00:07:59,562 --> 00:08:01,856 We the white race lost the war. 252 00:08:01,898 --> 00:08:05,526 A plague known as Jews 253 00:08:01,898 --> 00:08:05,526 won the war, 254 00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:07,988 infiltrated our bloodstream 255 00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:07,988 of our race 256 00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:11,158 in every country 257 00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:11,158 in which we reside. 258 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871 MAN: 259 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871 Richard Butler, like many 260 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:16,871 far-right people at the time, 261 00:08:16,913 --> 00:08:21,126 held that the federal government 262 00:08:16,913 --> 00:08:21,126 was in the hands of the Jews. 263 00:08:21,168 --> 00:08:25,630 And the only way to save America 264 00:08:25,672 --> 00:08:29,509 was to assert 265 00:08:25,672 --> 00:08:29,509 your Christian sovereignty, 266 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,804 your white Christian 267 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,804 sovereignty. 268 00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557 BUTLER: 269 00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557 Every major city in the United 270 00:08:32,846 --> 00:08:36,557 States is now non-white, 271 00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:41,562 following the catastrophic 272 00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:41,562 destruction of our race 273 00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:45,566 in the so-called Civil War, 274 00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:45,566 or the War Between the States. 275 00:08:45,608 --> 00:08:51,198 America shall again become 276 00:08:45,608 --> 00:08:51,198 white and Christian. 277 00:08:51,239 --> 00:08:55,410 There'll be a lot of blood 278 00:08:51,239 --> 00:08:55,410 running one day. 279 00:08:55,452 --> 00:08:59,164 I don't advocate it, 280 00:08:55,452 --> 00:08:59,164 I don't want it. 281 00:08:59,206 --> 00:09:00,581 But it's going to come 282 00:09:00,623 --> 00:09:06,129 as sure as day follows night 283 00:09:00,623 --> 00:09:06,129 and night follows day. 284 00:09:06,171 --> 00:09:08,840 MAN: 285 00:09:06,171 --> 00:09:08,840 In the 1980s, in America, 286 00:09:08,882 --> 00:09:12,593 the white race was becoming 287 00:09:08,882 --> 00:09:12,593 the minority race. 288 00:09:12,635 --> 00:09:15,596 Racist groups used that 289 00:09:12,635 --> 00:09:15,596 as a calling card. 290 00:09:15,638 --> 00:09:17,598 "Come join us, 291 00:09:15,638 --> 00:09:17,598 because the white race 292 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:18,933 is going to be driven 293 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:18,933 to extinction." 294 00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565 MAN: 295 00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565 The Aryan Nations 296 00:09:23,146 --> 00:09:25,565 attracted people 297 00:09:25,606 --> 00:09:29,652 from all walks of life 298 00:09:25,606 --> 00:09:29,652 who were, who were white, 299 00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:36,034 all of them looking for someone 300 00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:36,034 to blame for the situation. 301 00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:39,996 And they focused their anger 302 00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:39,996 on the federal government. 303 00:09:40,038 --> 00:09:44,625 People like Robert Mathews. 304 00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045 MORLIN: 305 00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045 Robert Mathews showed up 306 00:09:44,667 --> 00:09:47,045 at the Aryan Nations 307 00:09:47,087 --> 00:09:49,423 in the early 1980s. 308 00:09:49,464 --> 00:09:53,552 And there, he met 309 00:09:49,464 --> 00:09:53,552 other young men like him, 310 00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:55,803 who thought 311 00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:55,803 that it was just talk. 312 00:09:55,845 --> 00:09:57,347 It was no action. 313 00:09:57,389 --> 00:09:59,849 Bob Mathews said, 314 00:09:57,389 --> 00:09:59,849 "The time has come for action." 315 00:09:59,891 --> 00:10:02,310 You Jews get the heck 316 00:09:59,891 --> 00:10:02,310 out of here! 317 00:10:02,352 --> 00:10:04,645 I didn't come all the way 318 00:10:02,352 --> 00:10:04,645 down here to hear you! 319 00:10:04,687 --> 00:10:05,688 Go over there! 320 00:10:05,730 --> 00:10:08,358 ...the words of Jesus Christ... 321 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319 MAN: 322 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319 Bob Mathews wanted to start 323 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,319 a revolution. 324 00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:12,737 He saw the United States 325 00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:12,737 government 326 00:10:12,779 --> 00:10:17,951 as a complete and utter enemy, 327 00:10:12,779 --> 00:10:17,951 run by Satanic Jews, 328 00:10:17,992 --> 00:10:22,497 that had to be destroyed. 329 00:10:22,539 --> 00:10:25,333 MORLIN: 330 00:10:22,539 --> 00:10:25,333 He had 12 or so other followers, 331 00:10:25,375 --> 00:10:28,253 most of whom he had met 332 00:10:25,375 --> 00:10:28,253 at the Aryan Nations, 333 00:10:28,295 --> 00:10:29,670 and they decided 334 00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:33,341 that they would basically 335 00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:33,341 declare war on the U.S. 336 00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848 MAN: 337 00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848 As Bob Mathews was formulating 338 00:10:36,094 --> 00:10:40,848 a plan for his organization, 339 00:10:40,890 --> 00:10:44,685 he discovered a book 340 00:10:40,890 --> 00:10:44,685 called The Turner Diaries, 341 00:10:44,727 --> 00:10:48,689 written by a racist 342 00:10:44,727 --> 00:10:48,689 named William Pierce. 343 00:10:48,731 --> 00:10:54,695 It was a fictional account 344 00:10:48,731 --> 00:10:54,695 of a group of patriots 345 00:10:54,737 --> 00:10:57,282 that came together 346 00:10:54,737 --> 00:10:57,282 in a very small number, 347 00:10:57,324 --> 00:10:59,576 much like what Bob was planning 348 00:10:57,324 --> 00:10:59,576 to do, 349 00:10:59,618 --> 00:11:01,702 and overthrow 350 00:10:59,618 --> 00:11:01,702 the United States government. 351 00:11:01,744 --> 00:11:07,708 And as Bob read this, 352 00:11:01,744 --> 00:11:07,708 he thought, "This is us. 353 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:10,711 This is the plan 354 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:10,711 we need to follow." 355 00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048 MAN: 356 00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048 "Unit 8 will secure a large 357 00:11:10,753 --> 00:11:14,048 quantity of explosives, 358 00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:16,050 "between five and ten tons. 359 00:11:16,092 --> 00:11:17,594 "We will then drive 360 00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:20,388 "into the FBI building's 361 00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:20,388 freight receiving area, 362 00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:22,765 set the fuse, 363 00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:22,765 and leave the truck." 364 00:11:22,807 --> 00:11:26,561 POTOK: 365 00:11:22,807 --> 00:11:26,561 The Turner Diaries culminates 366 00:11:26,603 --> 00:11:28,771 with these anti-government 367 00:11:26,603 --> 00:11:28,771 resisters 368 00:11:28,813 --> 00:11:34,277 blowing up the FBI headquarters 369 00:11:28,813 --> 00:11:34,277 in Washington, D.C. 370 00:11:34,319 --> 00:11:37,738 It had this electrifying, 371 00:11:34,319 --> 00:11:37,738 energizing effect 372 00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:39,698 on all kinds of people 373 00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:39,698 on the radical right. 374 00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755 MAN: 375 00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755 The Order is a small group, 376 00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:54,755 but a very formidable group, 377 00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:58,009 and they start robbing banks, 378 00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:58,009 armored cars, 379 00:11:58,051 --> 00:11:59,594 kill whoever they had to kill. 380 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:00,719 They didn't care. 381 00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813 MANIS: 382 00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813 Their expertise grew 383 00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:10,813 week by week and month by month. 384 00:12:10,855 --> 00:12:16,236 This was an organization 385 00:12:10,855 --> 00:12:16,236 that had taken real form 386 00:12:16,277 --> 00:12:19,738 and had real leadership 387 00:12:16,277 --> 00:12:19,738 and direction. 388 00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:24,785 And then they formed 389 00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:24,785 an assassination squad 390 00:12:24,827 --> 00:12:26,204 to go to Denver. 391 00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873 RADIO ANNOUNCER: 392 00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873 You're listening to Alan Berg 393 00:12:26,246 --> 00:12:28,873 on KOA. 394 00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:29,874 You never shut up! 395 00:12:29,916 --> 00:12:31,167 I got fed up with you! 396 00:12:31,209 --> 00:12:33,836 You never let me get a word 397 00:12:31,209 --> 00:12:33,836 edgewise-- get out of here! 398 00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091 POTOK: 399 00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091 The Jewish talk show host 400 00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,091 Alan Berg 401 00:12:38,132 --> 00:12:40,552 had angered the radical right 402 00:12:40,594 --> 00:12:43,054 by essentially mocking them 403 00:12:40,594 --> 00:12:43,054 on his radio show. 404 00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:44,847 If you're not a Christian, 405 00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:44,847 you're un-American. 406 00:12:44,889 --> 00:12:46,391 Is that your point, sir? 407 00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808 MAN: 408 00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808 That's right! 409 00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:47,808 Good point, sir! 410 00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229 NOBLE: 411 00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229 He spoke out 412 00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,229 against the right wing 413 00:12:51,271 --> 00:12:53,607 and the Christian Patriot 414 00:12:51,271 --> 00:12:53,607 movement, 415 00:12:53,648 --> 00:12:56,901 yeah, and members 416 00:12:53,648 --> 00:12:56,901 of The Order got fed up. 417 00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410 LEVITAS: 418 00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410 Alan Berg was shot to death 419 00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:05,410 in the driveway of his home. 420 00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:07,704 It was essentially 421 00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:07,704 domestic terrorism. 422 00:13:07,746 --> 00:13:13,792 It was born-and-bred Americans 423 00:13:07,746 --> 00:13:13,792 inspired by racism, 424 00:13:13,834 --> 00:13:19,840 anti-Semitism, 425 00:13:13,834 --> 00:13:19,840 and anti-government ideology. 426 00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845 MANIS: 427 00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845 The FBI really didn't know 428 00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:24,845 who these individuals were. 429 00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:27,599 But a great break happened 430 00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:27,599 for us 431 00:13:27,641 --> 00:13:30,226 when Bob Mathews decided 432 00:13:27,641 --> 00:13:30,226 they're going to take down 433 00:13:30,268 --> 00:13:31,810 a Brinks truck that's carrying 434 00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:35,315 multiples of millions 435 00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:35,315 of dollars. 436 00:13:35,356 --> 00:13:36,857 So they do. 437 00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:42,196 A very brazen daylight robbery 438 00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:42,196 right out on a highway. 439 00:13:42,238 --> 00:13:43,864 They take this thing down. 440 00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,867 Bob Mathews is in there, 441 00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,867 he's clearing out money, 442 00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:50,330 and his pistol falls out 443 00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:50,330 of his waistband. 444 00:13:50,371 --> 00:13:52,666 And we get that pistol. 445 00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511 MORLIN: 446 00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511 They convince some members 447 00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:04,511 of The Order to surrender. 448 00:14:04,552 --> 00:14:08,264 But Mathews wouldn't surrender. 449 00:14:08,306 --> 00:14:10,891 And after a two- 450 00:14:08,306 --> 00:14:10,891 or three-day standoff, 451 00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:15,146 the FBI moves in on the cabin 452 00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:15,146 and a gunfight occurs. 453 00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526 MANIS: 454 00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526 I'm just a little ways 455 00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:19,526 from the house, 456 00:14:19,567 --> 00:14:20,943 and the bullets are hitting 457 00:14:20,985 --> 00:14:24,280 right at the trees 458 00:14:20,985 --> 00:14:24,280 and the brush line where I'm at. 459 00:14:24,322 --> 00:14:25,865 You know, he's got plenty 460 00:14:24,322 --> 00:14:25,865 of weapons, 461 00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:27,950 he's got thousands of rounds 462 00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:27,950 of ammunition. 463 00:14:27,992 --> 00:14:32,913 He was committed. 464 00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500 MAN: 465 00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500 The next evening, 466 00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:35,500 it was starting to get dark, 467 00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:37,669 so we put in 468 00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:37,669 some illumination rounds, 469 00:14:37,711 --> 00:14:40,087 and those rounds, 470 00:14:37,711 --> 00:14:40,087 one of them or so, caught fire, 471 00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:41,255 and the building started 472 00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:41,255 to burn. 473 00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677 MANIS: 474 00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677 And then it was 475 00:14:43,924 --> 00:14:45,677 like firecrackers, 476 00:14:45,719 --> 00:14:48,929 just pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, 477 00:14:45,719 --> 00:14:48,929 going off everywhere, 478 00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:53,100 with the cooking-off 479 00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:53,100 of the rounds. 480 00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:57,104 At daybreak, I walked up 481 00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:57,104 to the remains of the house 482 00:14:57,146 --> 00:15:01,651 and saw a charred body there. 483 00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529 NOBLE: 484 00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529 Mathews' death forced 485 00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:04,529 the movement, everybody, 486 00:15:04,571 --> 00:15:05,946 to look at themselves: 487 00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:09,743 "Am I really ready and willing 488 00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:09,743 to die for the cause?" 489 00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:16,957 MANIS: 490 00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:16,957 The FBI was on high alert. 491 00:15:16,999 --> 00:15:22,797 I mean, domestic terrorism now 492 00:15:16,999 --> 00:15:22,797 was top order. 493 00:15:22,839 --> 00:15:26,300 And there was a massive amount 494 00:15:22,839 --> 00:15:26,300 of investigation and arrests 495 00:15:26,342 --> 00:15:30,263 throughout the United States. 496 00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:32,640 MORLIN: 497 00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:32,640 By the mid-'80s, 498 00:15:32,682 --> 00:15:35,810 the federal agencies had 499 00:15:32,682 --> 00:15:35,810 the lesson of The Order, 500 00:15:35,852 --> 00:15:36,977 so they knew some of the folks 501 00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:38,772 that had come out 502 00:15:37,019 --> 00:15:38,772 of the Aryan Nations 503 00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:40,189 were doing bad things-- 504 00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:40,189 they were committing crimes, 505 00:15:40,231 --> 00:15:41,691 they were killing people. 506 00:15:41,733 --> 00:15:44,819 So the Feds were interested in, 507 00:15:41,733 --> 00:15:44,819 who's there, 508 00:15:44,861 --> 00:15:46,070 and what are they doing, 509 00:15:46,112 --> 00:15:47,947 and what are they planning 510 00:15:46,112 --> 00:15:47,947 on doing next? 511 00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378 LEVITAS: 512 00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378 Randy Weaver was a person 513 00:15:58,249 --> 00:16:02,378 with white separatist beliefs 514 00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:07,007 who moved his family from Iowa 515 00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:07,007 to Boundary County, Idaho, 516 00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:11,512 to a place called Ruby Ridge. 517 00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642 MORLIN: 518 00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642 They were 50 miles or so 519 00:16:11,554 --> 00:16:15,642 from the Canadian border. 520 00:16:15,683 --> 00:16:16,810 They had no electricity, 521 00:16:16,851 --> 00:16:18,686 no running water, 522 00:16:16,851 --> 00:16:18,686 no indoor plumbing. 523 00:16:18,728 --> 00:16:20,020 We're talking about a cabin 524 00:16:20,062 --> 00:16:23,399 made by Randy Weaver 525 00:16:20,062 --> 00:16:23,399 and his wife 526 00:16:23,441 --> 00:16:26,110 on a mountaintop. 527 00:16:26,152 --> 00:16:29,155 These are people that want 528 00:16:26,152 --> 00:16:29,155 to be left alone. 529 00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369 WALTER: 530 00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369 The Weavers were deeply 531 00:16:31,157 --> 00:16:35,369 religious 532 00:16:35,411 --> 00:16:37,163 and they wanted to live 533 00:16:35,411 --> 00:16:37,163 in a style 534 00:16:37,204 --> 00:16:41,793 they believed 535 00:16:37,204 --> 00:16:41,793 was Old Testament Christian. 536 00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:43,795 They were really imagining 537 00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:43,795 this fortress, 538 00:16:43,837 --> 00:16:47,465 this place where they could 539 00:16:43,837 --> 00:16:47,465 really separate themselves 540 00:16:47,507 --> 00:16:51,093 from a corrupt 541 00:16:47,507 --> 00:16:51,093 and dangerous world. 542 00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182 MAN: 543 00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182 I don't know 544 00:16:54,681 --> 00:16:56,182 that Randy Weaver knew 545 00:16:56,223 --> 00:16:59,059 at the time that they moved 546 00:16:56,223 --> 00:16:59,059 to Ruby Ridge 547 00:16:59,101 --> 00:17:03,397 that they would be so close 548 00:16:59,101 --> 00:17:03,397 to the Aryan Nations compound, 549 00:17:03,439 --> 00:17:07,151 which was just 60 miles south. 550 00:17:07,193 --> 00:17:10,446 But they started showing up. 551 00:17:10,488 --> 00:17:12,072 At first, it was purely social. 552 00:17:12,114 --> 00:17:15,869 They attended family picnics, 553 00:17:12,114 --> 00:17:15,869 those kinds of things. 554 00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:18,454 But as Randy began 555 00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:18,454 to interact more with them, 556 00:17:18,496 --> 00:17:22,082 he bought into the message, 557 00:17:18,496 --> 00:17:22,082 the anti-government message. 558 00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586 BUTLER: 559 00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586 A movement is growing 560 00:17:22,124 --> 00:17:25,586 all over the world. 561 00:17:25,628 --> 00:17:28,130 Good men are coming forth, 562 00:17:28,172 --> 00:17:31,384 men with iron wills 563 00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:34,679 who are determined that their 564 00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:34,679 race is not going to die 565 00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:36,055 and become extinct. 566 00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687 MORLIN: 567 00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687 By the time Randy Weaver started 568 00:17:38,808 --> 00:17:42,687 showing up at the Aryan Nations, 569 00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:45,147 it was just after 570 00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:45,147 the whole Matthews episode. 571 00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:48,776 And, unfortunately 572 00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:48,776 for Randy Weaver, 573 00:17:48,818 --> 00:17:50,820 the Feds were listening. 574 00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:53,865 LEVITAS: 575 00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:53,865 They had lots of events there 576 00:17:53,907 --> 00:17:57,284 designed to potentially recruit 577 00:17:53,907 --> 00:17:57,284 harder-core folks 578 00:17:57,326 --> 00:17:59,495 into the compound, 579 00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:02,122 and it was at one 580 00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:02,122 of those meetings 581 00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:07,378 that Randy Weaver was spotted by 582 00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:07,378 an undercover federal informant. 583 00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049 MORLIN: 584 00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049 This guy got next 585 00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:11,049 to Randy Weaver 586 00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:13,968 and learned that he was, 587 00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:13,968 you know, clearly a racist, 588 00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:15,887 that he wanted to live 589 00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:15,887 his white separatist lifestyle 590 00:18:15,929 --> 00:18:17,471 in North Idaho, 591 00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:21,225 but that he was having trouble 592 00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:21,225 putting two nickels together, 593 00:18:21,267 --> 00:18:23,770 and that he was interested 594 00:18:21,267 --> 00:18:23,770 in some income. 595 00:18:23,811 --> 00:18:25,312 And one thing led to another, 596 00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:28,399 and pretty soon, Randy Weaver 597 00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:28,399 agrees to saw off some shotguns. 598 00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907 NOBLE: 599 00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907 In my opinion, the ATF pretty 600 00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,907 much entrapped him 601 00:18:35,949 --> 00:18:38,117 into making these shotguns 602 00:18:35,949 --> 00:18:38,117 illegal 603 00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:40,411 by cutting off 604 00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:40,411 too much of the barrel, 605 00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:44,164 and then comes out and wants 606 00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:44,164 to arrest him over it. 607 00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167 MORLIN: 608 00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167 They figured, 609 00:18:44,206 --> 00:18:47,167 "If we arrest this guy 610 00:18:47,209 --> 00:18:49,128 "on federal firearms charges, 611 00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:50,797 "maybe he can lead us 612 00:18:49,169 --> 00:18:50,797 to other people 613 00:18:50,838 --> 00:18:52,298 that are doing 614 00:18:50,838 --> 00:18:52,298 more dastardly things." 615 00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:57,428 They did think Randy Weaver 616 00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:57,428 could be flipped. 617 00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180 BOTTING: 618 00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180 So they asked him to be 619 00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:00,180 an informant, 620 00:19:00,222 --> 00:19:03,225 which he immediately refused. 621 00:19:03,267 --> 00:19:05,728 Randy Weaver didn't trust 622 00:19:03,267 --> 00:19:05,728 the government 623 00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:07,187 and was absolutely 624 00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:07,187 not interested 625 00:19:07,229 --> 00:19:09,107 in being an informant. 626 00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:12,443 However, he failed to appear 627 00:19:09,148 --> 00:19:12,443 for his next court appearance. 628 00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196 WALTER: 629 00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196 Once you don't show up 630 00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,196 for trial, 631 00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:19,867 the case is assigned 632 00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:19,867 to the U.S. Marshals Service. 633 00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:21,702 And the U.S. Marshals Service 634 00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:21,702 doesn't know 635 00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:23,830 whether or not 636 00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:23,830 Randy Weaver was entrapped 637 00:19:23,871 --> 00:19:25,873 or how those shotguns 638 00:19:23,871 --> 00:19:25,873 came about. 639 00:19:25,915 --> 00:19:28,542 They just know 640 00:19:25,915 --> 00:19:28,542 they have a fugitive. 641 00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342 BOTTING: 642 00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342 The marshals brought in 643 00:19:33,172 --> 00:19:36,342 their special surveillance team 644 00:19:36,383 --> 00:19:39,553 and they kind of 645 00:19:36,383 --> 00:19:39,553 skunked around the property 646 00:19:39,595 --> 00:19:40,930 trying to find a location 647 00:19:40,972 --> 00:19:42,473 to take him into custody 648 00:19:40,972 --> 00:19:42,473 without a problem. 649 00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311 MAN: 650 00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311 Well, this is the approach 651 00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:47,311 from the east. 652 00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981 MORLIN: 653 00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981 One of the things 654 00:19:47,353 --> 00:19:49,981 that they decided to do 655 00:19:50,023 --> 00:19:52,025 was to have motion-activated 656 00:19:50,023 --> 00:19:52,025 cameras 657 00:19:52,066 --> 00:19:54,027 placed near the Weaver cabin. 658 00:19:54,068 --> 00:19:57,404 The tapes showed 659 00:19:54,068 --> 00:19:57,404 that Randy Weaver was there 660 00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:01,575 with his wife and his children 661 00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:01,575 and a man named Kevin Harris, 662 00:20:01,617 --> 00:20:04,912 and that they frequently 663 00:20:01,617 --> 00:20:04,912 were armed. 664 00:20:04,954 --> 00:20:06,706 They have to have been 665 00:20:04,954 --> 00:20:06,706 shaking their heads. 666 00:20:06,747 --> 00:20:08,248 "What are we going to do? 667 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:09,792 "We go up there, 668 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:09,792 and he's going to shoot at us, 669 00:20:09,834 --> 00:20:11,044 and we're going to shoot back." 670 00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,549 BOTTING: 671 00:20:14,296 --> 00:20:16,549 On the day of the shooting, 672 00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:19,468 the marshals had a six-man team 673 00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:19,468 they divided into two elements, 674 00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:22,596 and one element of three went up 675 00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:22,596 on the mountain 676 00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:26,266 to have a visual on the cabin 677 00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:26,266 itself. 678 00:20:26,308 --> 00:20:31,022 The other element was on the 679 00:20:26,308 --> 00:20:31,022 ground, closer to the cabin, 680 00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:33,566 when the Weavers' dog caught 681 00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:33,566 the scent of the marshals 682 00:20:33,607 --> 00:20:36,235 and went after them. 683 00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:41,949 All we know at that point was, 684 00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:41,949 there was a shootout. 685 00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788 MORLIN: 686 00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788 Who shot who first 687 00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:47,788 is still subject 688 00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:49,707 to, you know, interpretation, 689 00:20:49,749 --> 00:20:51,834 but when it was all said 690 00:20:49,749 --> 00:20:51,834 and done, 691 00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,796 14-year-old Sammy Weaver's dead, 692 00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:55,796 the dog's dead, 693 00:20:55,838 --> 00:20:58,298 and so is Federal Marshal 694 00:20:55,838 --> 00:20:58,298 William Degan, 695 00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:02,636 killed on the property 696 00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:02,636 of a white separatist. 697 00:21:02,678 --> 00:21:04,346 The FBI had every reason 698 00:21:02,678 --> 00:21:04,346 to think, 699 00:21:04,388 --> 00:21:06,224 when they're dealing 700 00:21:04,388 --> 00:21:06,224 with Randy Weaver, 701 00:21:06,265 --> 00:21:08,267 they could be dealing 702 00:21:06,265 --> 00:21:08,267 with another Bob Mathews. 703 00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689 WALTER: 704 00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689 Because they believe that they 705 00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:13,689 are deploying into a firefight 706 00:21:13,731 --> 00:21:15,649 with a group 707 00:21:13,731 --> 00:21:15,649 of armed separatists 708 00:21:15,691 --> 00:21:18,318 very much like The Order, 709 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,863 the rationale is given 710 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,863 that a surrender warning 711 00:21:20,905 --> 00:21:22,240 doesn't need to be called out, 712 00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:23,824 that that warning 713 00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:23,824 has already been given, 714 00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:30,790 so agents can open fire as soon 715 00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:30,790 as they see any armed adult. 716 00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:36,003 Well, the Weavers 717 00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:36,003 are always armed. 718 00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259 BOTTING: 719 00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259 I got there and there were 720 00:21:38,089 --> 00:21:41,259 trucks and jeeps 721 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,594 and all kinds of vehicles, 722 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,594 you know, 723 00:21:43,636 --> 00:21:48,141 even armored personnel carriers. 724 00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,310 It was just overwhelming 725 00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,310 how much was happening 726 00:21:51,351 --> 00:21:52,645 and how many people 727 00:21:51,351 --> 00:21:52,645 were involved. 728 00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:00,194 MORLIN: 729 00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:00,194 Where we were, 730 00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,362 at the roadblock, 731 00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,362 it was out of view 732 00:22:02,404 --> 00:22:06,617 of where this base operation 733 00:22:02,404 --> 00:22:06,617 was occurring. 734 00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:08,368 But there were, you know, 735 00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:10,746 an assortment 736 00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:10,746 of law enforcement people 737 00:22:10,788 --> 00:22:14,208 going across this little bridge. 738 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:17,211 Neighbors and friends 739 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:17,211 of Randy Weaver 740 00:22:17,253 --> 00:22:19,630 and reporters 741 00:22:17,253 --> 00:22:19,630 from all over the country 742 00:22:19,672 --> 00:22:22,883 started gathering there, 743 00:22:19,672 --> 00:22:22,883 trying to get information. 744 00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:25,094 If we can tell you something, 745 00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:25,094 we will, 746 00:22:25,136 --> 00:22:26,971 but most of it will all come out 747 00:22:25,136 --> 00:22:26,971 of Washington, D.C. 748 00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098 MORLIN: 749 00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098 We were down 750 00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:29,098 a good two miles or so 751 00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:31,100 from where the actual cabin was. 752 00:22:31,142 --> 00:22:36,647 So we had no clue 753 00:22:31,142 --> 00:22:36,647 as to what the FBI had in mind. 754 00:22:40,985 --> 00:22:43,403 WALTER: 755 00:22:40,985 --> 00:22:43,403 As morning dawns on Ruby Ridge, 756 00:22:43,445 --> 00:22:46,740 a team of ten FBI agents 757 00:22:43,445 --> 00:22:46,740 surround the cabin. 758 00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:50,410 These are snipers who've been 759 00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:50,410 trained to, you know, 760 00:22:50,452 --> 00:22:53,080 to hit a dime from 200 meters. 761 00:22:55,457 --> 00:22:58,794 Randy Weaver, Kevin Harris, 762 00:22:55,457 --> 00:22:58,794 and Sara Weaver 763 00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,340 decide they're going to go out 764 00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,340 and check on Sam Weaver's body. 765 00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:05,134 They make their way out 766 00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:05,134 with their weapons to the shed 767 00:23:05,176 --> 00:23:07,720 where Samuel has been taken 768 00:23:05,176 --> 00:23:07,720 by the family, 769 00:23:07,761 --> 00:23:11,598 when a shot rings out. 770 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,809 Randy is hit in the shoulder. 771 00:23:13,851 --> 00:23:20,440 They run back to the house 772 00:23:13,851 --> 00:23:20,440 and another shot rings out. 773 00:23:20,482 --> 00:23:25,403 This shot goes through the door, 774 00:23:20,482 --> 00:23:25,403 hits Vicki Weaver in the face, 775 00:23:25,445 --> 00:23:28,282 splinters, 776 00:23:25,445 --> 00:23:28,282 and wounds Kevin Harris, 777 00:23:28,324 --> 00:23:30,617 and drops Vicki dead 778 00:23:28,324 --> 00:23:30,617 to the floor. 779 00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458 MORLIN: 780 00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458 When word came down that Sammy 781 00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:38,458 and Vicki Weaver were dead, 782 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:40,460 the crowd at the roadblock, 783 00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,923 which numbered 50, to 100, 784 00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,923 to 200 on occasion, 785 00:23:43,964 --> 00:23:44,840 went crazy. 786 00:23:44,882 --> 00:23:48,219 (protesters yelling) 787 00:23:48,261 --> 00:23:50,012 MAN: 788 00:23:48,261 --> 00:23:50,012 You call yourself an American? 789 00:23:50,054 --> 00:23:52,181 These are Americans! 790 00:23:52,223 --> 00:23:54,141 These are God-fearing people! 791 00:23:54,183 --> 00:23:55,559 You don't even know 792 00:23:54,183 --> 00:23:55,559 your Constitution. 793 00:23:55,601 --> 00:23:58,478 Go back and read 794 00:23:55,601 --> 00:23:58,478 what your founding fathers said. 795 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566 POTOK: 796 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566 The events at Ruby Ridge lit up 797 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,566 the radical right. 798 00:24:02,608 --> 00:24:06,153 Here was a government that would 799 00:24:02,608 --> 00:24:06,153 murder men, women, and children 800 00:24:06,195 --> 00:24:09,323 in order to pursue whatever 801 00:24:06,195 --> 00:24:09,323 their ends were. 802 00:24:09,365 --> 00:24:10,741 Baby killers! 803 00:24:09,365 --> 00:24:10,741 Baby killers! 804 00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495 POTOK: 805 00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495 The roadblock became 806 00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:15,495 a gathering point 807 00:24:15,537 --> 00:24:18,874 for skinheads, 808 00:24:15,537 --> 00:24:18,874 for Aryan Nations members, 809 00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:20,876 for all kinds of people, 810 00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:20,876 you know, 811 00:24:20,918 --> 00:24:22,502 furiously shaking their fists 812 00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:25,172 at the Zionist-occupied 813 00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:25,172 government. 814 00:24:25,214 --> 00:24:27,216 You're a disgrace 815 00:24:25,214 --> 00:24:27,216 to the white race! 816 00:24:27,258 --> 00:24:29,302 MAN: 817 00:24:27,258 --> 00:24:29,302 Disgrace to the race! 818 00:24:29,343 --> 00:24:31,971 This was the first time 819 00:24:29,343 --> 00:24:31,971 the movement had gathered 820 00:24:32,012 --> 00:24:33,513 in such a fashion, 821 00:24:33,555 --> 00:24:37,268 this publicly. 822 00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,520 It became a political event 823 00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,520 of its own. 824 00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:45,525 These were people who saw 825 00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:45,525 themselves in Randy Weaver. 826 00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:00,540 You look at what happened 827 00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:02,751 and how many times it could have 828 00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:02,751 been averted and avoided. 829 00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:07,256 The idea that the far right had 830 00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:07,256 at that moment 831 00:25:07,298 --> 00:25:10,384 that the government was 832 00:25:07,298 --> 00:25:10,384 a very dangerous entity, 833 00:25:10,426 --> 00:25:14,554 this case would seem to prove it 834 00:25:10,426 --> 00:25:14,554 as completely as possible. 835 00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517 MAN: 836 00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517 Mr. Weaver, do you have anything 837 00:25:18,267 --> 00:25:19,517 to say? 838 00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609 ZESKIND: 839 00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609 Ruby Ridge, more even than 840 00:25:22,604 --> 00:25:27,609 Robert Mathews and The Order, 841 00:25:27,651 --> 00:25:32,572 became a central calling card 842 00:25:27,651 --> 00:25:32,572 and rallying card 843 00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:34,532 for the far right. 844 00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:39,246 For them, the government 845 00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:39,246 was after Weaver's guns 846 00:25:39,288 --> 00:25:41,623 and his religion. 847 00:25:41,665 --> 00:25:45,336 And guns and religion became 848 00:25:41,665 --> 00:25:45,336 the twin pillars 849 00:25:45,378 --> 00:25:48,839 of the white supremacist 850 00:25:45,378 --> 00:25:48,839 movement. 851 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095 MORLIN: 852 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095 In late summer, 1992, 853 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,095 after Ruby Ridge, 854 00:25:55,137 --> 00:25:58,057 several members 855 00:25:55,137 --> 00:25:58,057 of the extremist movement 856 00:25:58,098 --> 00:26:00,600 saw that as an opportune moment 857 00:26:00,642 --> 00:26:02,560 to sort of gather everybody 858 00:26:00,642 --> 00:26:02,560 together 859 00:26:02,602 --> 00:26:04,021 and, "Let's raise hell 860 00:26:02,602 --> 00:26:04,021 about this." 861 00:26:04,063 --> 00:26:09,026 One race, one folk, one nation, 862 00:26:04,063 --> 00:26:09,026 one people, one homeland! 863 00:26:09,068 --> 00:26:10,736 We're going to have it! 864 00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614 LEVITAS: 865 00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614 Louis Beam, former grand dragon 866 00:26:10,777 --> 00:26:14,614 of the Ku Klux Klan, said, 867 00:26:14,656 --> 00:26:19,412 now is the time for you 868 00:26:14,656 --> 00:26:19,412 as an individual 869 00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:24,624 to commit overt acts 870 00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:24,624 of anti-government violence. 871 00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:27,836 Essentially, 872 00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:27,836 anybody representative 873 00:26:27,878 --> 00:26:29,629 of government or law enforcement 874 00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:34,968 was a fair and reasonable 875 00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:34,968 target. 876 00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139 NOBLE: 877 00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139 The government is an enemy 878 00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:39,139 of the people. 879 00:26:39,181 --> 00:26:42,142 And in this war, 880 00:26:42,184 --> 00:26:44,644 it's an, it's an all-or-nothing, 881 00:26:42,184 --> 00:26:44,644 you know. 882 00:26:44,686 --> 00:26:48,482 We're either going to win 883 00:26:44,686 --> 00:26:48,482 as the white race 884 00:26:48,524 --> 00:26:51,777 or we're going to lose. 885 00:26:58,534 --> 00:26:59,952 MAN (on radio): 886 00:26:58,534 --> 00:26:59,952 602 to Operations. 887 00:26:59,993 --> 00:27:02,162 The water is shut off 888 00:26:59,993 --> 00:27:02,162 to the federal building. 889 00:27:02,204 --> 00:27:04,290 At this time, 890 00:27:02,204 --> 00:27:04,290 the water is shut off. 891 00:27:04,331 --> 00:27:07,418 (sirens blaring) 892 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169 MAN: 893 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169 Probably about 10:00 894 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,169 in the morning, 895 00:27:09,211 --> 00:27:11,671 I got a call at the hospital. 896 00:27:11,713 --> 00:27:13,507 There's a lady who's trapped, 897 00:27:13,549 --> 00:27:15,593 and the only way 898 00:27:13,549 --> 00:27:15,593 that we're going to be able 899 00:27:15,633 --> 00:27:16,760 to extricate her 900 00:27:15,633 --> 00:27:16,760 and save her life 901 00:27:16,802 --> 00:27:18,387 is to amputate her leg. 902 00:27:18,429 --> 00:27:24,435 So I got an amputation set, 903 00:27:18,429 --> 00:27:24,435 I got some nylon rope, 904 00:27:24,477 --> 00:27:27,313 and away I went. 905 00:27:27,354 --> 00:27:31,775 When I got to the building, 906 00:27:27,354 --> 00:27:31,775 it was surreal. 907 00:27:34,445 --> 00:27:37,531 There were a lot 908 00:27:34,445 --> 00:27:37,531 of first responders there 909 00:27:37,573 --> 00:27:39,783 who had pretty well 910 00:27:37,573 --> 00:27:39,783 set things up 911 00:27:39,825 --> 00:27:45,038 so they could take somebody away 912 00:27:39,825 --> 00:27:45,038 the minute that they found them. 913 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,417 And then I was led 914 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,417 into the basement. 915 00:27:50,752 --> 00:27:52,712 FLOWERS: 916 00:27:50,752 --> 00:27:52,712 We could hear people screaming. 917 00:27:52,754 --> 00:27:54,714 We could hear them screaming, 918 00:27:52,754 --> 00:27:54,714 we could hear them crying. 919 00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:58,636 You just couldn't see them 920 00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:58,636 because it was so dark. 921 00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:00,720 When they fired up these lights, 922 00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:04,141 you could see the floors 923 00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:04,141 had fallen on top of each other 924 00:28:04,183 --> 00:28:10,314 and created, like, a dungeon 925 00:28:04,183 --> 00:28:10,314 underneath the Murrah Building. 926 00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:12,941 Everywhere you look 927 00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:12,941 in this floor 928 00:28:12,983 --> 00:28:14,692 that you could see, 929 00:28:14,734 --> 00:28:18,405 there were these round circles 930 00:28:14,734 --> 00:28:18,405 of coagulated blood 931 00:28:18,447 --> 00:28:21,033 that were coming 932 00:28:18,447 --> 00:28:21,033 through the cracks of the floor. 933 00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:24,744 These circles were three 934 00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:24,744 and four feet in diameter, 935 00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:27,747 and they're everywhere, 936 00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:27,747 seemed like everywhere, 937 00:28:27,789 --> 00:28:30,834 and you knew that that was 938 00:28:27,789 --> 00:28:30,834 a person that had been crushed. 939 00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757 SULLIVAN: 940 00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757 They led me to where Daina 941 00:28:34,171 --> 00:28:37,757 was trapped. 942 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,845 There was a first responder 943 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,845 with his hand on the beam 944 00:28:41,887 --> 00:28:43,681 that had her leg trapped. 945 00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:48,227 And if it trembled or moved, 946 00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:48,227 we were told we had to go. 947 00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:53,399 The beam was lying on her leg, 948 00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:53,399 her tibia, just below the knee. 949 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,402 Basically, to do the amputation, 950 00:28:56,443 --> 00:29:00,531 I had to lie with my legs 951 00:28:56,443 --> 00:29:00,531 up by her head. 952 00:29:00,573 --> 00:29:03,534 And so I took the traction rope 953 00:29:00,573 --> 00:29:03,534 and tightened it down 954 00:29:03,576 --> 00:29:06,328 so that I had a tourniquet. 955 00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:09,164 And then, you know, it's kind 956 00:29:06,370 --> 00:29:09,164 of like diving into ice water. 957 00:29:09,206 --> 00:29:11,917 I had to start. 958 00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:13,126 MAN: 959 00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:13,126 Get back! 960 00:29:13,168 --> 00:29:14,127 Go, go! 961 00:29:14,169 --> 00:29:15,212 Get them back! 962 00:29:15,254 --> 00:29:17,715 Get them back! 963 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553 POTOK: 964 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553 Just as I got 965 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:22,553 to where the barricade was, 966 00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:26,139 this incredible scare went 967 00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:26,139 through the crowd. 968 00:29:26,181 --> 00:29:27,600 Get your stuff back now! 969 00:29:27,641 --> 00:29:29,101 Someone was yelling they thought 970 00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:31,645 they had discovered a second 971 00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:31,645 bomb: "Get back, get back!" 972 00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481 MAN: 973 00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481 We've got a hot device-- 974 00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:34,481 get them back! 975 00:29:34,523 --> 00:29:36,024 FLOWERS: 976 00:29:34,523 --> 00:29:36,024 They start screaming at us. 977 00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:39,570 "Get out of this building, we 978 00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:39,570 have just found another device!" 979 00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:42,364 And of course, 980 00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:42,364 everybody's heart sinks, 981 00:29:42,406 --> 00:29:44,116 because we've got people 982 00:29:42,406 --> 00:29:44,116 still alive in here. 983 00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:48,828 WOMAN: 984 00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:48,828 I was on the eighth floor. 985 00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:51,998 My eyes were 986 00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:51,998 in pretty bad shape. 987 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,835 Two of my friends 988 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,835 worked their way over to me, 989 00:29:55,877 --> 00:29:59,548 and said, "We've got to get out 990 00:29:55,877 --> 00:29:59,548 of here." 991 00:29:59,590 --> 00:30:01,341 I was praying, I was saying, 992 00:30:01,383 --> 00:30:03,802 "Lord, don't let there be 993 00:30:01,383 --> 00:30:03,802 any more bombs." 994 00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848 RICKS: 995 00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848 It turns out that it was not 996 00:30:05,638 --> 00:30:08,848 a real device. 997 00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:12,852 It had been a mockup 998 00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:12,852 for one of the agencies there. 999 00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:15,855 But we were still telling 1000 00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:15,855 people, you know, 1001 00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:17,983 that we couldn't guarantee 1002 00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:17,983 their safety 1003 00:30:18,024 --> 00:30:18,942 as they went in there. 1004 00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864 FLOWERS: 1005 00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864 I remember seeing that team 1006 00:30:21,487 --> 00:30:24,864 down there 1007 00:30:24,906 --> 00:30:28,661 working on that girl 1008 00:30:24,906 --> 00:30:28,661 to amputate that leg. 1009 00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:30,329 Everybody's screaming at them, 1010 00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:30,329 "Get out of there! 1011 00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:31,871 Get out of there, 1012 00:30:30,370 --> 00:30:31,871 the bomb's going to..." 1013 00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:34,583 And they would not leave, 1014 00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:34,583 they would not leave her. 1015 00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:37,877 SULLIVAN: 1016 00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:37,877 I don't remember how many times 1017 00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:40,798 I thought I had completed 1018 00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:40,798 the amputation. 1019 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,010 We would try to extract Daina 1020 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,010 and she was still caught. 1021 00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:47,887 I reached a point where 1022 00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:47,887 all of the blades were broken 1023 00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:49,515 and there was nothing else 1024 00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:49,515 to do, 1025 00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:52,518 but I had in my pocket 1026 00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:52,518 a pocketknife 1027 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:54,728 that I keep very sharp. 1028 00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:56,438 The thing that was 1029 00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:56,438 keeping us from extracting her 1030 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,106 was the quadriceps tendon, 1031 00:30:58,148 --> 00:30:59,817 and once I cut through that, 1032 00:30:59,858 --> 00:31:02,444 then I could kind of get a sense 1033 00:30:59,858 --> 00:31:02,444 that the leg was free 1034 00:31:02,486 --> 00:31:04,863 and we were able to extract her. 1035 00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:08,200 MAN (on radio): 1036 00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:08,200 We have two critical patients. 1037 00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:11,787 I have one patient that needs 1038 00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:11,787 immediate transport... 1039 00:31:11,829 --> 00:31:15,123 SCHWAB: 1040 00:31:11,829 --> 00:31:15,123 When I got out of the building, 1041 00:31:15,165 --> 00:31:18,377 I sat on the curb 1042 00:31:15,165 --> 00:31:18,377 waiting for an ambulance. 1043 00:31:18,418 --> 00:31:20,504 I couldn't see anything, 1044 00:31:20,546 --> 00:31:23,382 but I could hear people yelling, 1045 00:31:20,546 --> 00:31:23,382 people screaming, 1046 00:31:23,423 --> 00:31:27,927 sirens in the background. 1047 00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:31,682 And I thought, 1048 00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:31,682 "What crazy person did this? 1049 00:31:31,724 --> 00:31:36,770 Who has come in here and done 1050 00:31:31,724 --> 00:31:36,770 this terrible thing?" 1051 00:31:41,066 --> 00:31:43,943 The bombing in Oklahoma City 1052 00:31:43,985 --> 00:31:46,739 was an attack 1053 00:31:43,985 --> 00:31:46,739 on innocent children 1054 00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:50,534 and defenseless citizens. 1055 00:31:50,576 --> 00:31:55,581 It was an act of cowardice 1056 00:31:50,576 --> 00:31:55,581 and it was evil. 1057 00:31:55,622 --> 00:31:58,751 Let there be no room for doubt, 1058 00:31:58,792 --> 00:32:01,879 we will find the people 1059 00:31:58,792 --> 00:32:01,879 who did this. 1060 00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007 RICKS: 1061 00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007 The bombing 1062 00:32:04,715 --> 00:32:06,007 of the Murrah Building 1063 00:32:06,049 --> 00:32:07,967 was the largest domestic 1064 00:32:06,049 --> 00:32:07,967 terrorist event 1065 00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:11,971 that had ever occurred 1066 00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:11,971 in the United States. 1067 00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:14,391 We probably had 1068 00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:14,391 close to 500 investigators 1069 00:32:14,433 --> 00:32:17,603 that were here in Oklahoma City. 1070 00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:22,524 We had forensic teams, 1071 00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:22,524 bomb squad teams, 1072 00:32:22,566 --> 00:32:26,820 evidence response teams, 1073 00:32:22,566 --> 00:32:26,820 all kinds of experts, 1074 00:32:26,862 --> 00:32:28,947 looking for clues. 1075 00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786 MAN: 1076 00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786 This becomes one of the biggest 1077 00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:33,786 criminal investigations 1078 00:32:33,827 --> 00:32:35,370 in American history. 1079 00:32:35,412 --> 00:32:39,666 Every police agency 1080 00:32:35,412 --> 00:32:39,666 in the country 1081 00:32:39,708 --> 00:32:45,004 is in some way trying 1082 00:32:39,708 --> 00:32:45,004 to track down leads, 1083 00:32:45,046 --> 00:32:49,384 because at the very first, 1084 00:32:45,046 --> 00:32:49,384 they had no idea who did it. 1085 00:32:49,426 --> 00:32:51,386 (phone rings) 1086 00:32:51,428 --> 00:32:53,012 FBI Hotline. 1087 00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726 RICKS: 1088 00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726 We have had hundreds, 1089 00:32:53,054 --> 00:32:57,726 if not thousands of leads. 1090 00:32:57,768 --> 00:33:01,062 Each one of those is treated 1091 00:32:57,768 --> 00:33:01,062 very seriously. 1092 00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:03,022 But at this point, 1093 00:33:01,104 --> 00:33:03,022 we cannot speculate 1094 00:33:03,064 --> 00:33:05,818 with regard 1095 00:33:03,064 --> 00:33:05,818 to who is responsible. 1096 00:33:05,859 --> 00:33:09,404 We ended up with leads 1097 00:33:05,859 --> 00:33:09,404 in literally every state, 1098 00:33:09,446 --> 00:33:11,030 as well as many 1099 00:33:09,446 --> 00:33:11,030 foreign countries. 1100 00:33:11,072 --> 00:33:14,242 Whenever you have 1101 00:33:11,072 --> 00:33:14,242 a mass catastrophe, 1102 00:33:14,284 --> 00:33:15,786 such as the Murrah bombing, 1103 00:33:15,828 --> 00:33:17,078 the assumption is always, 1104 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,038 "You've got to have 1105 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,038 this great conspiracy. 1106 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,125 There've got to be 1107 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,125 multiple people involved." 1108 00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:25,879 And we operated 1109 00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:25,879 under that assumption, as well. 1110 00:33:25,921 --> 00:33:29,048 We were getting calls, even 1111 00:33:25,921 --> 00:33:29,048 just after the bombing happened. 1112 00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:31,844 We were getting reports 1113 00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:31,844 by the thousands, 1114 00:33:31,885 --> 00:33:34,805 that, "I saw this, I saw that." 1115 00:33:34,847 --> 00:33:37,349 Then we started getting calls 1116 00:33:34,847 --> 00:33:37,349 over the radio 1117 00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:38,642 about Middle Easterners. 1118 00:33:38,684 --> 00:33:40,185 "Start looking 1119 00:33:38,684 --> 00:33:40,185 for Middle Easterners." 1120 00:33:40,226 --> 00:33:44,982 There has yet been no claim of 1121 00:33:40,226 --> 00:33:44,982 responsibility for this bombing, 1122 00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:47,066 although if you talk 1123 00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:47,066 to intelligence sources 1124 00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:48,735 and to law enforcement 1125 00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:48,735 officials, 1126 00:33:48,777 --> 00:33:51,070 they all say 1127 00:33:48,777 --> 00:33:51,070 in their early guess 1128 00:33:51,112 --> 00:33:52,364 in this situation 1129 00:33:52,405 --> 00:33:53,740 is that this particular bombing 1130 00:33:53,782 --> 00:33:55,909 probably has roots 1131 00:33:53,782 --> 00:33:55,909 in the Middle East. 1132 00:33:55,951 --> 00:33:58,244 A U.S. government source 1133 00:33:55,951 --> 00:33:58,244 has told CBS News 1134 00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:01,707 that it has Middle East 1135 00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:01,707 terrorism written all over it. 1136 00:34:01,748 --> 00:34:04,626 WOMAN: 1137 00:34:01,748 --> 00:34:04,626 I started making phone calls, 1138 00:34:04,668 --> 00:34:06,127 trying to find out 1139 00:34:04,668 --> 00:34:06,127 what was going on 1140 00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:08,588 and very quickly found out 1141 00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:08,588 that the Feds went 1142 00:34:08,630 --> 00:34:11,090 and raided an apartment 1143 00:34:08,630 --> 00:34:11,090 in Dallas 1144 00:34:11,132 --> 00:34:15,094 that was occupied 1145 00:34:11,132 --> 00:34:15,094 by some Middle Eastern guys. 1146 00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:17,096 But then someone I spoke to 1147 00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:17,096 said, 1148 00:34:17,138 --> 00:34:19,474 "Do you know what day it is?" 1149 00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:21,059 I said, you know, "What?" 1150 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,102 I had been off work 1151 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,102 for a couple of days, 1152 00:34:23,144 --> 00:34:25,104 and so, you know, 1153 00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:27,106 wasn't paying attention 1154 00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:27,106 to the calendar that closely. 1155 00:34:27,148 --> 00:34:29,359 And someone said, 1156 00:34:27,148 --> 00:34:29,359 "It's April 19." 1157 00:34:29,401 --> 00:34:33,112 Immediately it hit me. 1158 00:34:33,154 --> 00:34:35,824 This is about Waco. 1159 00:34:35,866 --> 00:34:38,035 You know, this is about Waco. 1160 00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:50,129 ♪ Give me that 1161 00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:50,129 old-time religion ♪ 1162 00:34:50,171 --> 00:34:53,884 ♪ Give me that 1163 00:34:50,171 --> 00:34:53,884 old-time religion ♪ 1164 00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:56,344 ♪ Give me that 1165 00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:56,344 old-time religion ♪ 1166 00:34:56,386 --> 00:34:59,347 ♪ It's good enough for me! ♪ 1167 00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141 WRIGHT: 1168 00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141 The Branch Davidians 1169 00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:02,141 had been in Texas 1170 00:35:02,183 --> 00:35:03,309 for over 50 years 1171 00:35:03,351 --> 00:35:05,979 by the time that most people 1172 00:35:03,351 --> 00:35:05,979 outside of Waco 1173 00:35:06,021 --> 00:35:07,022 had ever heard of them. 1174 00:35:07,064 --> 00:35:09,608 They were an offshoot 1175 00:35:09,649 --> 00:35:12,151 of the Seventh-day 1176 00:35:09,649 --> 00:35:12,151 Adventist Church. 1177 00:35:12,193 --> 00:35:16,531 They found a place just outside 1178 00:35:12,193 --> 00:35:16,531 of Waco, called it Mt. Carmel, 1179 00:35:16,573 --> 00:35:18,992 and set up this community. 1180 00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:23,538 In the late '80s, 1181 00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,457 a young Davidian 1182 00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,457 named Vernon Howell 1183 00:35:25,498 --> 00:35:26,959 had a revelation 1184 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,878 that God had chosen him 1185 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,878 to be their leader. 1186 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,048 He changed his name 1187 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,048 to David Koresh 1188 00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:36,426 and began preaching 1189 00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:36,426 his vision of Armageddon 1190 00:35:36,468 --> 00:35:38,177 out of the Book of Revelation. 1191 00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:40,055 "So how's God going to talk 1192 00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:40,055 to me in the latter days?" 1193 00:35:40,097 --> 00:35:41,180 AUDIENCE: 1194 00:35:40,097 --> 00:35:41,180 It's going to be written. 1195 00:35:41,222 --> 00:35:42,348 And who's going to bring 1196 00:35:41,222 --> 00:35:42,348 that book? 1197 00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:43,433 (audience mumbles answer) 1198 00:35:43,475 --> 00:35:44,559 So there'll be no excuses! 1199 00:35:44,601 --> 00:35:48,521 HANCOCK: 1200 00:35:44,601 --> 00:35:48,521 In about May of 1992, 1201 00:35:48,563 --> 00:35:51,108 the sheriff's department in Waco 1202 00:35:51,149 --> 00:35:53,902 got a report 1203 00:35:51,149 --> 00:35:53,902 from a U.P.S. truck driver 1204 00:35:53,944 --> 00:35:57,155 about a shipment going 1205 00:35:53,944 --> 00:35:57,155 to Mt. Carmel. 1206 00:35:57,196 --> 00:35:59,282 There was a box that fell apart, 1207 00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:03,202 and some pineapple grenade hulls 1208 00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:03,202 came out of the box. 1209 00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:04,955 That's what prompted 1210 00:36:04,997 --> 00:36:08,041 the beginning 1211 00:36:04,997 --> 00:36:08,041 of the ATF investigation. 1212 00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209 MAN: 1213 00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209 That investigation was able 1214 00:36:08,083 --> 00:36:10,209 to determine 1215 00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:12,420 that they were illegally 1216 00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:12,420 converting automatic weapons 1217 00:36:12,462 --> 00:36:14,006 in there, 1218 00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:18,176 that they had purchased 1219 00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:18,176 about $43,000 worth of firearms 1220 00:36:18,217 --> 00:36:19,928 during the year prior to it, 1221 00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:22,848 and members of the community 1222 00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:22,848 out there 1223 00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:25,391 had heard automatic weapons fire 1224 00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:25,391 and explosions 1225 00:36:25,433 --> 00:36:28,227 coming from the compound. 1226 00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:31,230 HANCOCK: 1227 00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:31,230 Koresh preached increasingly 1228 00:36:31,272 --> 00:36:34,651 that they were going to be met 1229 00:36:31,272 --> 00:36:34,651 with an opposing force. 1230 00:36:34,693 --> 00:36:36,695 So when we start getting 1231 00:36:34,693 --> 00:36:36,695 into the subject 1232 00:36:36,736 --> 00:36:37,904 of the Seven Seals, 1233 00:36:37,946 --> 00:36:39,238 looks like somebody's 1234 00:36:37,946 --> 00:36:39,238 going to get 1235 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,740 a butt-whuppin' 1236 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,740 in the near future, 1237 00:36:40,782 --> 00:36:42,034 aren't they? 1238 00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:44,077 HANCOCK: 1239 00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:44,077 He believed that the government 1240 00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,830 was going to try to invade 1241 00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,830 this sacred ground 1242 00:36:46,872 --> 00:36:49,248 that was Mt. Carmel. 1243 00:36:49,290 --> 00:36:53,252 And so, this actually would be 1244 00:36:49,290 --> 00:36:53,252 where Armageddon takes place. 1245 00:36:53,294 --> 00:36:55,463 BUFORD: 1246 00:36:53,294 --> 00:36:55,463 People in ATF felt 1247 00:36:55,505 --> 00:37:00,093 that if this Armageddon that 1248 00:36:55,505 --> 00:37:00,093 he predicted didn't come true, 1249 00:37:00,135 --> 00:37:02,261 he was going to have to do 1250 00:37:00,135 --> 00:37:02,261 something to prompt it. 1251 00:37:02,303 --> 00:37:07,225 So we decided that we needed 1252 00:37:02,303 --> 00:37:07,225 to act as quickly as possible. 1253 00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191 HANCOCK: 1254 00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191 Reporters for the Waco 1255 00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,191 Tribune-Herald 1256 00:37:14,273 --> 00:37:17,694 had really good sources 1257 00:37:14,273 --> 00:37:17,694 in local law enforcement, 1258 00:37:17,736 --> 00:37:19,154 and they had been tipped 1259 00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:22,157 about when the raid 1260 00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:22,157 was going to go down. 1261 00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:25,493 This road's going to be 1262 00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:25,493 closed soon. 1263 00:37:25,535 --> 00:37:27,996 HANCOCK: 1264 00:37:25,535 --> 00:37:27,996 The morning of the raid, 1265 00:37:28,038 --> 00:37:30,707 a reporter was sent 1266 00:37:28,038 --> 00:37:30,707 to the compound, 1267 00:37:30,749 --> 00:37:32,209 and he's driving around 1268 00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:34,293 trying to figure out 1269 00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:34,293 where he is, 1270 00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:37,296 when here comes 1271 00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:37,296 a Buick station wagon, 1272 00:37:37,338 --> 00:37:38,798 stops, rolls down the window, 1273 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,341 says, "Hey, buddy, 1274 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,341 are you lost?" 1275 00:37:40,383 --> 00:37:44,888 He says, "Yeah, I'm looking 1276 00:37:40,383 --> 00:37:44,888 for Mt. Carmel. 1277 00:37:44,930 --> 00:37:48,016 There's going to be a big raid." 1278 00:37:48,058 --> 00:37:50,602 Turns out that the guy 1279 00:37:48,058 --> 00:37:50,602 in the car 1280 00:37:50,643 --> 00:37:54,773 is one of the inner circle 1281 00:37:50,643 --> 00:37:54,773 of Koresh's followers. 1282 00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:57,316 He immediately goes 1283 00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:57,316 and tells Koresh 1284 00:37:57,358 --> 00:37:59,611 what was happening. 1285 00:37:59,652 --> 00:38:00,987 That morning, 1286 00:38:01,029 --> 00:38:04,241 David said 1287 00:38:01,029 --> 00:38:04,241 that we had information 1288 00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,618 that there was going 1289 00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,618 to be a raid today. 1290 00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:11,289 The men were arming themselves 1291 00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:11,289 and the women were told 1292 00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:16,044 to go back to their rooms 1293 00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:16,044 and bunker down. 1294 00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504 BUFORD: 1295 00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504 We were going to be confronting 1296 00:38:16,086 --> 00:38:18,504 150 people 1297 00:38:18,546 --> 00:38:21,049 on a very large compound. 1298 00:38:21,091 --> 00:38:23,551 They had 45 minutes 1299 00:38:21,091 --> 00:38:23,551 to prepare for us 1300 00:38:23,593 --> 00:38:27,264 and began firing on us 1301 00:38:23,593 --> 00:38:27,264 as soon as we got there. 1302 00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:33,853 I heard an M60 machine gun 1303 00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:33,853 being fired. 1304 00:38:33,895 --> 00:38:37,857 Then I heard the A.K.-47s. 1305 00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:39,859 And then I heard 1306 00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:39,859 the 50-calibers, 1307 00:38:39,901 --> 00:38:42,862 just a brutal, brutal weapon. 1308 00:38:42,904 --> 00:38:46,365 (gunfire banging and popping) 1309 00:38:46,407 --> 00:38:49,410 There's no doubt these people 1310 00:38:46,407 --> 00:38:49,410 were trying to kill us. 1311 00:38:49,452 --> 00:38:52,371 (gunfire continuing) 1312 00:38:52,413 --> 00:38:55,208 The firefight went on 1313 00:38:52,413 --> 00:38:55,208 for 2 1/2 hours. 1314 00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:59,171 And when they finally agreed 1315 00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:59,171 to a ceasefire, 1316 00:38:59,212 --> 00:39:02,966 we were able to get our people 1317 00:38:59,212 --> 00:39:02,966 and get out. 1318 00:39:03,008 --> 00:39:03,967 MAN: 1319 00:39:03,008 --> 00:39:03,967 Yeah, this is Lynch. 1320 00:39:04,009 --> 00:39:04,968 KORESH: 1321 00:39:04,009 --> 00:39:04,968 Hey, Lynch? 1322 00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:06,469 LYNCH: 1323 00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:06,469 Yeah. 1324 00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971 KORESH: 1325 00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971 That's kind of 1326 00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:07,971 a funny name there. 1327 00:39:08,013 --> 00:39:09,347 Now, listen, now... 1328 00:39:09,388 --> 00:39:10,389 LYNCH: 1329 00:39:09,388 --> 00:39:10,389 Now, who am I speaking with? 1330 00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:11,599 KORESH: 1331 00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:11,599 This is David Koresh. 1332 00:39:11,641 --> 00:39:12,600 LYNCH: 1333 00:39:11,641 --> 00:39:12,600 Okay, David. 1334 00:39:12,642 --> 00:39:13,810 KORESH: 1335 00:39:12,642 --> 00:39:13,810 The notorious. 1336 00:39:13,852 --> 00:39:15,645 What'd you guys do that for? 1337 00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440 LYNCH: 1338 00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440 Well, David, what, this, 1339 00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:19,440 what I'm doing is, 1340 00:39:19,482 --> 00:39:21,776 I'm trying to establish some 1341 00:39:19,482 --> 00:39:21,776 communication links with you. 1342 00:39:21,818 --> 00:39:22,819 KORESH: 1343 00:39:21,818 --> 00:39:22,819 No, no, no, no, no. 1344 00:39:22,861 --> 00:39:23,820 Let me tell you something. 1345 00:39:23,862 --> 00:39:24,988 LYNCH: 1346 00:39:23,862 --> 00:39:24,988 Yes, sir. 1347 00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:26,198 KORESH: 1348 00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:26,198 You see, you brought 1349 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:27,406 a bunch of guys out here 1350 00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:29,408 and you killed 1351 00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:29,408 some of my children. 1352 00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:31,036 We told you we wanted to talk. 1353 00:39:31,077 --> 00:39:32,578 How come you guys had 1354 00:39:31,077 --> 00:39:32,578 to be ATF agents? 1355 00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:34,998 How come you try to be so big 1356 00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:34,998 all the time? 1357 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,499 LYNCH: 1358 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,499 Okay, David... 1359 00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210 KORESH: 1360 00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210 Now there's a bunch 1361 00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,210 of us dead. 1362 00:39:38,251 --> 00:39:39,585 There's a bunch 1363 00:39:38,251 --> 00:39:39,585 of you guys dead. 1364 00:39:39,627 --> 00:39:41,420 Now, now that's your fault. 1365 00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422 LYNCH: 1366 00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422 Okay, let's, let's try 1367 00:39:41,462 --> 00:39:43,422 to resolve this now. 1368 00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:46,425 Tell me this, 1369 00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:46,425 now, you have casualties. 1370 00:39:46,467 --> 00:39:47,886 How many casualties? 1371 00:39:47,927 --> 00:39:49,637 Do you want to try 1372 00:39:47,927 --> 00:39:49,637 to work something out? 1373 00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:53,516 ATF is pulling back, 1374 00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:53,516 we're trying to, uh... 1375 00:39:53,558 --> 00:39:56,435 KORESH: 1376 00:39:53,558 --> 00:39:56,435 Why didn't you do that first? 1377 00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192 HANCOCK: 1378 00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192 By the end of this shootout, 1379 00:39:56,477 --> 00:40:02,192 four ATF agents were dead, 1380 00:40:02,234 --> 00:40:03,943 more than a dozen were wounded. 1381 00:40:03,985 --> 00:40:08,031 And inside, five Davidians 1382 00:40:03,985 --> 00:40:08,031 were dead 1383 00:40:08,073 --> 00:40:09,741 and David Koresh was wounded. 1384 00:40:09,782 --> 00:40:11,492 MAN: 1385 00:40:09,782 --> 00:40:11,492 Okay, then, move out. 1386 00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125 BUFORD: 1387 00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125 There really wasn't much 1388 00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:19,125 organization as to how we left. 1389 00:40:19,167 --> 00:40:20,877 The three team leaders, 1390 00:40:19,167 --> 00:40:20,877 all of us, 1391 00:40:20,919 --> 00:40:23,380 were wounded very badly. 1392 00:40:23,421 --> 00:40:29,094 I was actually put in a blanket 1393 00:40:23,421 --> 00:40:29,094 and placed on the hood of a car, 1394 00:40:29,135 --> 00:40:31,679 and, uh... 1395 00:40:31,721 --> 00:40:36,475 I don't remember anything about 1396 00:40:31,721 --> 00:40:36,475 the... the trip out, actually. 1397 00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856 HANCOCK: 1398 00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856 American law enforcement had 1399 00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,856 never seen anything like this. 1400 00:40:41,898 --> 00:40:44,776 They had never had 1401 00:40:41,898 --> 00:40:44,776 this kind of loss. 1402 00:40:44,817 --> 00:40:50,823 They had never been met 1403 00:40:44,817 --> 00:40:50,823 with this kind of resistance. 1404 00:40:50,865 --> 00:40:52,992 There was shock, 1405 00:40:50,865 --> 00:40:52,992 there was anger, 1406 00:40:53,034 --> 00:40:57,580 and there was uncertainty. 1407 00:40:57,622 --> 00:40:59,665 REPORTER: 1408 00:40:57,622 --> 00:40:59,665 Tragedy tonight in Waco, Texas. 1409 00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,543 At least four federal agents 1410 00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,543 and a member of a cult group 1411 00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:06,505 are dead after an hour-long 1412 00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:06,505 gun battle at the cult's ranch. 1413 00:41:06,547 --> 00:41:08,841 14 other agents were 1414 00:41:06,547 --> 00:41:08,841 wounded in the shootout 1415 00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:11,761 that started when law officers 1416 00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:11,761 tried to enter the compound. 1417 00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224 MAN (over loudspeaker): 1418 00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224 David Koresh, pick up 1419 00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:16,224 the phone. 1420 00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:19,311 The negotiators 1421 00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:19,311 want to speak with you. 1422 00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519 RICKS: 1423 00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519 The tactic 1424 00:41:19,352 --> 00:41:20,519 from the very beginning 1425 00:41:20,561 --> 00:41:24,190 was trying to negotiate 1426 00:41:20,561 --> 00:41:24,190 a resolution. 1427 00:41:24,232 --> 00:41:27,444 We were willing to spend 1428 00:41:24,232 --> 00:41:27,444 as long as possible 1429 00:41:27,485 --> 00:41:28,736 to try to get the people out. 1430 00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:32,531 And particularly, 1431 00:41:28,778 --> 00:41:32,531 we would focus on the children, 1432 00:41:32,573 --> 00:41:36,995 trying to get the children 1433 00:41:32,573 --> 00:41:36,995 out of there. 1434 00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623 MAN: 1435 00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623 And starting off the evening 1436 00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,623 of the 28th of February, 1437 00:41:40,665 --> 00:41:41,833 we were successful. 1438 00:41:41,874 --> 00:41:46,045 We were starting 1439 00:41:41,874 --> 00:41:46,045 to get kids out. 1440 00:41:46,087 --> 00:41:49,007 But we couldn't fathom 1441 00:41:46,087 --> 00:41:49,007 how in the world 1442 00:41:49,048 --> 00:41:53,219 these parents were so latched 1443 00:41:49,048 --> 00:41:53,219 onto David 1444 00:41:53,261 --> 00:41:55,805 that they would abandon 1445 00:41:53,261 --> 00:41:55,805 their children. 1446 00:41:58,766 --> 00:42:00,310 We took videotapes of them 1447 00:42:00,352 --> 00:42:02,270 playing on the, 1448 00:42:00,352 --> 00:42:02,270 on the swing set, 1449 00:42:02,312 --> 00:42:04,314 and eating ice cream, 1450 00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:07,275 and just communing 1451 00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:07,275 with one another, 1452 00:42:07,317 --> 00:42:12,280 and we sent them back 1453 00:42:07,317 --> 00:42:12,280 into the compound. 1454 00:42:12,322 --> 00:42:14,282 We wanted 1455 00:42:12,322 --> 00:42:14,282 to do something tangible 1456 00:42:14,324 --> 00:42:15,783 so their parents could think, 1457 00:42:14,324 --> 00:42:15,783 you know, 1458 00:42:15,825 --> 00:42:20,163 "Maybe I need to come out 1459 00:42:15,825 --> 00:42:20,163 and reassume my responsibility 1460 00:42:20,205 --> 00:42:21,956 as a parent." 1461 00:42:21,998 --> 00:42:25,460 (kids greeting their parents) 1462 00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586 SCHROEDER: 1463 00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586 I didn't decide 1464 00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:27,586 to send my kids out. 1465 00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:32,258 My kids leaving 1466 00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:32,258 was part of the prophecy. 1467 00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,720 I didn't know when it was going 1468 00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,720 to happen, 1469 00:42:35,761 --> 00:42:38,473 but I knew it would happen. 1470 00:42:38,515 --> 00:42:39,849 They weren't David's children. 1471 00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:43,561 MAN: 1472 00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:43,561 He let children go 1473 00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:45,855 up until there were 1474 00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:45,855 no children left in there 1475 00:42:45,897 --> 00:42:47,482 except his children. 1476 00:42:47,524 --> 00:42:49,650 And he told us, 1477 00:42:47,524 --> 00:42:49,650 "This is the last one. 1478 00:42:49,692 --> 00:42:50,818 The rest are mine." 1479 00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331 HANCOCK: 1480 00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331 The negotiators needed 1481 00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,331 a different way 1482 00:43:03,373 --> 00:43:05,624 to approach the situation. 1483 00:43:05,666 --> 00:43:10,755 And so it was proposed to Koresh 1484 00:43:05,666 --> 00:43:10,755 that he make a recording 1485 00:43:10,796 --> 00:43:12,257 that could be broadcast 1486 00:43:12,298 --> 00:43:14,633 to bring his message 1487 00:43:12,298 --> 00:43:14,633 to the world, 1488 00:43:14,675 --> 00:43:17,720 if he would agree 1489 00:43:14,675 --> 00:43:17,720 to lead his people out. 1490 00:43:17,762 --> 00:43:21,099 Koresh agreed to do this. 1491 00:43:21,140 --> 00:43:22,434 Okay, here we go. 1492 00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:24,852 We're going to the tape 1493 00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:24,852 of David Koresh. 1494 00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:28,231 KORESH: 1495 00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:28,231 It's March 2, 1993. 1496 00:43:28,273 --> 00:43:30,649 My name is Dave Koresh. 1497 00:43:30,691 --> 00:43:34,653 I'm speaking to you 1498 00:43:30,691 --> 00:43:34,653 from Mt. Carmel Center. 1499 00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:38,408 In the Book of Revelation, 1500 00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:38,408 commentary states 1501 00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:41,619 that what John has written 1502 00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:41,619 in Scripture 1503 00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:45,415 is nothing other than 1504 00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:45,415 the revelation of Jesus Christ, 1505 00:43:45,457 --> 00:43:49,668 which God gave to Him 1506 00:43:45,457 --> 00:43:49,668 to show to His servants 1507 00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:53,214 things which must shortly 1508 00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:53,214 come to pass... 1509 00:43:53,256 --> 00:43:55,425 HANCOCK: 1510 00:43:53,256 --> 00:43:55,425 They're bringing in buses. 1511 00:43:55,467 --> 00:43:57,676 They're bringing in 1512 00:43:55,467 --> 00:43:57,676 all sorts of people 1513 00:43:57,718 --> 00:43:59,429 who are going to help process 1514 00:43:57,718 --> 00:43:59,429 the folks 1515 00:43:59,471 --> 00:44:01,431 coming out of the compound. 1516 00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,642 They were convinced 1517 00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,642 that he was going to come out. 1518 00:44:06,685 --> 00:44:08,354 RICKS: 1519 00:44:06,685 --> 00:44:08,354 We were at such a high level, 1520 00:44:08,396 --> 00:44:11,857 thinking that this thing 1521 00:44:08,396 --> 00:44:11,857 was going to end. 1522 00:44:11,899 --> 00:44:14,652 We were high-fiving each other, 1523 00:44:14,693 --> 00:44:17,363 then all of a sudden, 1524 00:44:14,693 --> 00:44:17,363 everything just stopped. 1525 00:44:17,405 --> 00:44:23,119 We were told that David received 1526 00:44:17,405 --> 00:44:23,119 a message from God 1527 00:44:23,161 --> 00:44:25,037 telling them to wait. 1528 00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:26,456 SAGE: 1529 00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:26,456 You went back on your word. 1530 00:44:26,498 --> 00:44:27,624 KORESH: 1531 00:44:26,498 --> 00:44:27,624 That is a lie! 1532 00:44:27,665 --> 00:44:28,625 SAGE: 1533 00:44:27,665 --> 00:44:28,625 That is not a lie. 1534 00:44:28,666 --> 00:44:30,502 KORESH: 1535 00:44:28,666 --> 00:44:30,502 That is a lie! 1536 00:44:30,543 --> 00:44:31,961 You will find out 1537 00:44:30,543 --> 00:44:31,961 in the Judgment... 1538 00:44:32,003 --> 00:44:33,671 SAGE: 1539 00:44:32,003 --> 00:44:33,671 You know as well as I do 1540 00:44:33,712 --> 00:44:35,714 that your challenge 1541 00:44:33,712 --> 00:44:35,714 to open these Seven Seals, 1542 00:44:35,756 --> 00:44:37,925 it's garbage, it's a false 1543 00:44:35,756 --> 00:44:37,925 hope, and you know this. 1544 00:44:37,967 --> 00:44:39,677 KORESH: 1545 00:44:37,967 --> 00:44:39,677 No, it's not. 1546 00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:41,554 HANCOCK: 1547 00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:41,554 Once he didn't come out, 1548 00:44:41,596 --> 00:44:44,723 the FBI's tactics pretty quickly 1549 00:44:41,596 --> 00:44:44,723 became aggressive. 1550 00:44:44,765 --> 00:44:48,353 The power was cut. 1551 00:44:48,394 --> 00:44:51,772 They blasted lights 1552 00:44:48,394 --> 00:44:51,772 at the compound. 1553 00:44:51,814 --> 00:44:54,775 They had brought in tanks, 1554 00:44:54,817 --> 00:44:59,905 so they drove 1555 00:44:54,817 --> 00:44:59,905 over Koresh's prized cars. 1556 00:44:59,947 --> 00:45:05,453 They also set up loudspeakers 1557 00:44:59,947 --> 00:45:05,453 and they began blasting 1558 00:45:05,495 --> 00:45:08,705 Nancy Sinatra's "These 1559 00:45:05,495 --> 00:45:08,705 Boots Are Made for Walking." 1560 00:45:08,747 --> 00:45:11,792 ♪ One of these days these boots 1561 00:45:08,747 --> 00:45:11,792 are gonna walk all over you. ♪ 1562 00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672 HANCOCK: 1563 00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672 Christmas carols, 1564 00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:15,672 the sounds of dying rabbits, 1565 00:45:15,712 --> 00:45:21,219 phones off the hook, 1566 00:45:15,712 --> 00:45:21,219 and even Tibetan monk chants. 1567 00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,555 It was clear 1568 00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,555 that the FBI was saying, 1569 00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,724 "Hey, we're going to show you 1570 00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,724 who's boss." 1571 00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395 REPORTER: 1572 00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395 The standoff outside 1573 00:45:27,766 --> 00:45:30,395 the Branch Davidian compound 1574 00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,771 has become a psychological 1575 00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,771 power struggle. 1576 00:45:32,813 --> 00:45:36,401 Now, sources tell CBS News 1577 00:45:32,813 --> 00:45:36,401 that federal agents don't plan 1578 00:45:36,442 --> 00:45:38,152 to let this go on indefinitely, 1579 00:45:38,194 --> 00:45:40,446 their frustration level 1580 00:45:38,194 --> 00:45:40,446 is very high, 1581 00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:42,781 and if negotiations 1582 00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:42,781 are not more fruitful, 1583 00:45:42,823 --> 00:45:44,867 they may take action 1584 00:45:42,823 --> 00:45:44,867 by this weekend. 1585 00:45:44,909 --> 00:45:46,369 Dan? 1586 00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787 RICKS: 1587 00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787 The story kept growing 1588 00:45:46,411 --> 00:45:48,787 and growing. 1589 00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:53,668 And the press initially 1590 00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:53,668 was very supportive 1591 00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:54,960 of what we were doing, 1592 00:45:55,002 --> 00:45:56,254 and very understanding, 1593 00:45:56,295 --> 00:45:58,797 but as the days went on, 1594 00:45:58,839 --> 00:46:00,925 they started becoming 1595 00:45:58,839 --> 00:46:00,925 more demanding. 1596 00:46:00,966 --> 00:46:05,137 They were saying, "After all, 1597 00:46:00,966 --> 00:46:05,137 they've killed four ATF agents. 1598 00:46:05,179 --> 00:46:09,808 Why are you just sitting back 1599 00:46:05,179 --> 00:46:09,808 and letting them do this?" 1600 00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:11,686 We are not going 1601 00:46:09,850 --> 00:46:11,686 to be jerked around. 1602 00:46:11,728 --> 00:46:14,939 We will take whatever action 1603 00:46:11,728 --> 00:46:14,939 is necessary to get it resolved. 1604 00:46:14,980 --> 00:46:17,816 And again, our ultimate goal 1605 00:46:14,980 --> 00:46:17,816 from day one 1606 00:46:17,858 --> 00:46:20,236 is to get it resolved 1607 00:46:17,858 --> 00:46:20,236 peacefully. 1608 00:46:20,278 --> 00:46:23,615 It was probably the number-one 1609 00:46:20,278 --> 00:46:23,615 story in the United States, 1610 00:46:23,656 --> 00:46:26,451 and many of the right-wing 1611 00:46:23,656 --> 00:46:26,451 Patriot types 1612 00:46:26,492 --> 00:46:27,826 started showing up, as well. 1613 00:46:27,868 --> 00:46:33,374 They thought this was 1614 00:46:27,868 --> 00:46:33,374 only about seizing guns, 1615 00:46:33,416 --> 00:46:35,543 about ATF attacking a church 1616 00:46:35,585 --> 00:46:39,213 because they believed 1617 00:46:35,585 --> 00:46:39,213 in possessing guns. 1618 00:46:39,255 --> 00:46:42,550 They didn't manage to get 1619 00:46:39,255 --> 00:46:42,550 into the press conferences, 1620 00:46:42,592 --> 00:46:45,637 but somebody else did. 1621 00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680 HANCOCK: 1622 00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680 Louis Beam, the white 1623 00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:47,680 supremacist 1624 00:46:47,722 --> 00:46:49,265 and former Klan leader, 1625 00:46:49,307 --> 00:46:53,561 showed up and presented himself 1626 00:46:49,307 --> 00:46:53,561 as a credentialed reporter. 1627 00:46:53,603 --> 00:46:56,188 Are we seeing the emergence 1628 00:46:53,603 --> 00:46:56,188 of a police state 1629 00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:57,814 in The United States? 1630 00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:00,067 We figured out who he was 1631 00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:00,067 pretty quickly. 1632 00:47:00,109 --> 00:47:03,904 He'd previously been on the 1633 00:47:00,109 --> 00:47:03,904 FBI's top ten most wanted list. 1634 00:47:03,946 --> 00:47:06,865 And I asked them if they're 1635 00:47:03,946 --> 00:47:06,865 going to have a police state, 1636 00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:09,702 and, uh, they don't want 1637 00:47:06,907 --> 00:47:09,702 to hear about police state, 1638 00:47:09,744 --> 00:47:14,290 ATF black-booted, black-suited, 1639 00:47:09,744 --> 00:47:14,290 black-helmeted troopers 1640 00:47:14,332 --> 00:47:15,874 carrying guns, 1641 00:47:14,332 --> 00:47:15,874 assaulting people. 1642 00:47:15,916 --> 00:47:17,834 Mr. Beam? 1643 00:47:15,916 --> 00:47:17,834 Let me see this... 1644 00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881 ZESKIND: 1645 00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881 White supremacists, like Beam, 1646 00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,881 saw in this standoff 1647 00:47:22,923 --> 00:47:26,093 the same issues that they 1648 00:47:22,923 --> 00:47:26,093 had decided were important 1649 00:47:26,135 --> 00:47:27,679 with Randy Weaver. 1650 00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:32,391 The Branch Davidians 1651 00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:32,391 were not white supremacists. 1652 00:47:32,433 --> 00:47:34,893 But now a broader section 1653 00:47:32,433 --> 00:47:34,893 of the far right 1654 00:47:34,935 --> 00:47:37,647 sees itself in Waco, and says, 1655 00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:41,609 "We're being suppressed 1656 00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:41,609 for our beliefs and our guns." 1657 00:47:41,651 --> 00:47:44,320 Up to the top of the hill, 1658 00:47:41,651 --> 00:47:44,320 them two white... 1659 00:47:44,362 --> 00:47:45,988 Little white buildings 1660 00:47:44,362 --> 00:47:45,988 up there. 1661 00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910 HANCOCK: 1662 00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910 There was a hill that was about 1663 00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:51,910 three miles from Mt. Carmel. 1664 00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:53,954 It was on a rise 1665 00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:53,954 that was high enough 1666 00:47:53,996 --> 00:47:58,875 that you could just barely see 1667 00:47:53,996 --> 00:47:58,875 Mt. Carmel in the distance. 1668 00:47:58,917 --> 00:48:01,170 This was as close 1669 00:47:58,917 --> 00:48:01,170 as members of the public 1670 00:48:01,212 --> 00:48:04,632 could get to the standoff. 1671 00:48:04,674 --> 00:48:06,509 WOMAN: 1672 00:48:04,674 --> 00:48:06,509 You're next, you're next! 1673 00:48:06,551 --> 00:48:08,093 Wake up and understand! 1674 00:48:08,135 --> 00:48:09,804 You're next! 1675 00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391 HANCOCK: 1676 00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391 All sorts of folks felt moved 1677 00:48:09,846 --> 00:48:13,391 to come down 1678 00:48:13,432 --> 00:48:15,643 to see what was going on 1679 00:48:13,432 --> 00:48:15,643 at Waco. 1680 00:48:25,319 --> 00:48:28,406 Just, just arrived today. 1681 00:48:28,447 --> 00:48:29,948 Just, somebody told me 1682 00:48:29,990 --> 00:48:31,450 a lot of people are scared 1683 00:48:29,990 --> 00:48:31,450 to put something on, 1684 00:48:31,492 --> 00:48:32,577 you know, like this. 1685 00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,953 HANCOCK: 1686 00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,953 Timothy McVeigh 1687 00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:37,956 had already apparently 1688 00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:37,956 been very concerned 1689 00:48:37,998 --> 00:48:40,959 about what had happened 1690 00:48:37,998 --> 00:48:40,959 at Ruby Ridge. 1691 00:48:41,001 --> 00:48:44,255 So he came down to Waco 1692 00:48:44,296 --> 00:48:45,964 and sold bumper stickers 1693 00:48:46,006 --> 00:48:51,554 with pro-gun, anti-government 1694 00:48:46,006 --> 00:48:51,554 slogans. 1695 00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:54,931 He saw the raid 1696 00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:54,931 as clear evidence 1697 00:48:54,973 --> 00:48:56,975 of what the government would do 1698 00:48:57,017 --> 00:49:01,188 to try to confiscate guns 1699 00:48:57,017 --> 00:49:01,188 and persecute gun owners. 1700 00:49:03,023 --> 00:49:05,984 HERBECK: 1701 00:49:03,023 --> 00:49:05,984 Tim McVeigh loved guns. 1702 00:49:06,026 --> 00:49:07,986 When he was a kid, 1703 00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:11,323 his grandfather taught him 1704 00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:11,323 all about guns: 1705 00:49:11,365 --> 00:49:16,078 the safe handling of guns 1706 00:49:11,365 --> 00:49:16,078 and the rights of gun owners. 1707 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,791 They would go out 1708 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,791 and shoot together, 1709 00:49:19,832 --> 00:49:22,418 go to target practice. 1710 00:49:22,460 --> 00:49:24,879 He just loved guns, 1711 00:49:24,921 --> 00:49:28,965 and the whole belief 1712 00:49:24,921 --> 00:49:28,965 about a man owning guns. 1713 00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681 MAN: 1714 00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681 Pendleton, New York, 1715 00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:35,681 was white suburbia. 1716 00:49:35,723 --> 00:49:37,767 It's near Buffalo. 1717 00:49:37,809 --> 00:49:42,062 It's where generations 1718 00:49:37,809 --> 00:49:42,062 of the McVeigh family had lived. 1719 00:49:42,104 --> 00:49:43,564 Growing up, 1720 00:49:43,606 --> 00:49:45,023 Tim loved superheroes. 1721 00:49:45,065 --> 00:49:47,735 He had a huge comic book 1722 00:49:45,065 --> 00:49:47,735 collection, 1723 00:49:47,777 --> 00:49:51,405 he liked Soldier of Fortune 1724 00:49:47,777 --> 00:49:51,405 magazine, 1725 00:49:51,447 --> 00:49:54,158 and he hated bullies. 1726 00:49:54,199 --> 00:49:58,036 Tim was very skinny and tall, 1727 00:49:58,078 --> 00:50:03,041 and in high school, he was known 1728 00:49:58,078 --> 00:50:03,041 as "Noodle" McVeigh. 1729 00:50:03,083 --> 00:50:08,380 That was the beginning 1730 00:50:03,083 --> 00:50:08,380 of a lifelong hatred of bullies. 1731 00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052 HERBECK: 1732 00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052 After high school, 1733 00:50:10,174 --> 00:50:14,052 he went into the Army. 1734 00:50:14,094 --> 00:50:19,684 He just couldn't seem to 1735 00:50:14,094 --> 00:50:19,684 find the right path to a career. 1736 00:50:19,725 --> 00:50:23,771 But the other reason 1737 00:50:19,725 --> 00:50:23,771 was he loved guns. 1738 00:50:23,813 --> 00:50:26,106 It gave him access 1739 00:50:23,813 --> 00:50:26,106 to all kinds of guns 1740 00:50:26,148 --> 00:50:31,445 and other weapons and he was 1741 00:50:26,148 --> 00:50:31,445 like a kid in a candy store. 1742 00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073 MCVEIGH: 1743 00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073 I was an admitted gun enthusiast 1744 00:50:31,487 --> 00:50:35,073 and so you can't go wrong 1745 00:50:35,115 --> 00:50:36,617 both brushing up your skills 1746 00:50:36,659 --> 00:50:39,119 and, hell, the Army 1747 00:50:36,659 --> 00:50:39,119 is free ammunition. 1748 00:50:39,161 --> 00:50:40,788 So I wanted to get out 1749 00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:42,748 and experience 1750 00:50:40,830 --> 00:50:42,748 the rest of the world. 1751 00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:46,126 I wanted to get out of my 1752 00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:46,126 isolation of Pendleton. 1753 00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091 MICHEL: 1754 00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091 The Army provided Tim McVeigh 1755 00:50:46,168 --> 00:50:53,091 with a place where he fit in. 1756 00:50:53,133 --> 00:50:58,096 He was the top gun at Fort Riley 1757 00:50:53,133 --> 00:50:58,096 in his Bradley fighting vehicle. 1758 00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:02,977 His supervisors took 1759 00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:02,977 notice of him. 1760 00:51:03,019 --> 00:51:06,104 He was a leader in the Army. 1761 00:51:06,146 --> 00:51:11,067 And then he goes over to Iraq 1762 00:51:06,146 --> 00:51:11,067 for the first Gulf War. 1763 00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114 HERBECK: 1764 00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114 It was in the war that McVeigh 1765 00:51:13,153 --> 00:51:16,114 first started 1766 00:51:16,156 --> 00:51:19,618 to become disillusioned 1767 00:51:16,156 --> 00:51:19,618 with the military 1768 00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:22,413 and the United States 1769 00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:22,413 government. 1770 00:51:22,454 --> 00:51:27,125 When he killed Iraqi soldiers, 1771 00:51:27,167 --> 00:51:30,880 he didn't feel the exhilaration 1772 00:51:27,167 --> 00:51:30,880 that he thought he would. 1773 00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300 POTOK: 1774 00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300 He took a very, very long 1775 00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:35,300 sniper shot 1776 00:51:35,342 --> 00:51:37,302 and killed an Iraqi soldier. 1777 00:51:37,344 --> 00:51:40,180 And he describes seeing 1778 00:51:37,344 --> 00:51:40,180 this man's head explode. 1779 00:51:40,222 --> 00:51:45,728 And he could not see 1780 00:51:40,222 --> 00:51:45,728 the reason for it. 1781 00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:47,021 He could not really understand 1782 00:51:47,063 --> 00:51:49,356 what the United States 1783 00:51:47,063 --> 00:51:49,356 was doing there. 1784 00:51:49,398 --> 00:51:51,609 MCVEIGH: My overall experience 1785 00:51:49,398 --> 00:51:51,609 in the Gulf War 1786 00:51:51,650 --> 00:51:55,153 taught me that these people were 1787 00:51:51,650 --> 00:51:55,153 just that, they were people. 1788 00:51:55,195 --> 00:51:57,698 They were human beings 1789 00:51:55,195 --> 00:51:57,698 at the core, 1790 00:51:57,740 --> 00:51:59,157 they were no different than me. 1791 00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:01,702 Then I had to reconcile that 1792 00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:01,702 with the fact 1793 00:52:01,744 --> 00:52:05,706 that, well, I killed them. 1794 00:52:05,748 --> 00:52:09,125 MICHEL: 1795 00:52:05,748 --> 00:52:09,125 He's truly conflicted. 1796 00:52:09,167 --> 00:52:12,421 He sees the American government 1797 00:52:09,167 --> 00:52:12,421 as a bully. 1798 00:52:14,214 --> 00:52:19,095 But they summon him home for 1799 00:52:14,214 --> 00:52:19,095 ranger school, special forces. 1800 00:52:19,135 --> 00:52:23,265 And he was willing to put aside 1801 00:52:19,135 --> 00:52:23,265 his anti-government views 1802 00:52:23,307 --> 00:52:28,854 in order to become, you know, 1803 00:52:23,307 --> 00:52:28,854 the ultimate soldier. 1804 00:52:28,896 --> 00:52:31,649 But he's not in top-notch 1805 00:52:28,896 --> 00:52:31,649 physical shape 1806 00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:36,821 and, to his embarrassment, 1807 00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:36,821 washes out of rangers school. 1808 00:52:36,862 --> 00:52:41,199 And the disillusionment 1809 00:52:36,862 --> 00:52:41,199 compounds itself. 1810 00:52:41,241 --> 00:52:44,912 He stayed around the Army 1811 00:52:41,241 --> 00:52:44,912 for a few more months, 1812 00:52:44,954 --> 00:52:47,205 but his heart just 1813 00:52:44,954 --> 00:52:47,205 wasn't in it anymore. 1814 00:52:47,247 --> 00:52:52,920 He went back home and 1815 00:52:47,247 --> 00:52:52,920 he thought it would be easy 1816 00:52:52,962 --> 00:52:56,715 to get a good job because 1817 00:52:52,962 --> 00:52:56,715 of his Army experience, 1818 00:52:56,757 --> 00:52:59,217 but he found that it wasn't. 1819 00:52:59,259 --> 00:53:02,220 Failure was eating at him. 1820 00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:06,558 He told us that "I feel like I 1821 00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:06,558 reached a pinnacle in the Army 1822 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,981 and then after that everything 1823 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,981 was just mediocrity." 1824 00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777 BEN FENWICK: 1825 00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777 He becomes more and more 1826 00:53:13,983 --> 00:53:16,777 disaffected. 1827 00:53:16,819 --> 00:53:19,237 He becomes more and 1828 00:53:16,819 --> 00:53:19,237 more strident. 1829 00:53:19,279 --> 00:53:23,408 He began paying attention to the 1830 00:53:19,279 --> 00:53:23,408 really far-off conspiracies, 1831 00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:25,369 like that the United Nations 1832 00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:25,369 was going to take over 1833 00:53:25,410 --> 00:53:31,917 the United States, and he 1834 00:53:25,410 --> 00:53:31,917 totally bought into them. 1835 00:53:31,959 --> 00:53:35,713 And he also 1836 00:53:31,959 --> 00:53:35,713 becomes very influenced 1837 00:53:35,754 --> 00:53:38,924 by The Turner Diaries. 1838 00:53:38,966 --> 00:53:41,259 He becomes just gripped 1839 00:53:38,966 --> 00:53:41,259 by this novel. 1840 00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683 HERBECK: 1841 00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683 He was really interested 1842 00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:47,683 in this character, Earl Turner, 1843 00:53:47,725 --> 00:53:50,268 and his antigovernment views 1844 00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:55,191 and his feeling that you needed 1845 00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:55,191 to take drastic action 1846 00:53:55,231 --> 00:53:57,233 to make the government 1847 00:53:55,231 --> 00:53:57,233 take notice. 1848 00:53:59,277 --> 00:54:02,280 And then Ruby Ridge happened. 1849 00:54:02,322 --> 00:54:06,326 And Ruby Ridge absolutely 1850 00:54:02,322 --> 00:54:06,326 enraged McVeigh. 1851 00:54:06,368 --> 00:54:08,204 He felt it was murder. 1852 00:54:08,244 --> 00:54:10,288 He felt it was all about 1853 00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:14,085 attacking the rights of people 1854 00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:14,085 to own guns. 1855 00:54:16,336 --> 00:54:17,796 POTOK: 1856 00:54:16,336 --> 00:54:17,796 He was not happy. 1857 00:54:17,838 --> 00:54:19,381 He wasn't getting along 1858 00:54:17,838 --> 00:54:19,381 with his family. 1859 00:54:19,423 --> 00:54:21,299 He didn't have a girlfriend. 1860 00:54:21,341 --> 00:54:26,304 He took his old beat-up car and 1861 00:54:21,341 --> 00:54:26,304 essentially began an odyssey, 1862 00:54:26,346 --> 00:54:28,766 traveling around the western 1863 00:54:26,346 --> 00:54:28,766 parts of the country, 1864 00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:32,310 kind of absorbing more and 1865 00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:32,310 more and more of this ideology. 1866 00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:36,607 And probably the single 1867 00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:36,607 most important place 1868 00:54:36,648 --> 00:54:41,653 where ideas of the radical right 1869 00:54:36,648 --> 00:54:41,653 were spread were gun shows. 1870 00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325 LEVITAS: 1871 00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325 Gun shows were sometimes more 1872 00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:47,325 than just gun shows. 1873 00:54:47,367 --> 00:54:51,163 The antigovernment message, 1874 00:54:47,367 --> 00:54:51,163 which cloaked itself 1875 00:54:51,205 --> 00:54:54,875 in the paraphernalia 1876 00:54:51,205 --> 00:54:54,875 of patriotism, 1877 00:54:54,917 --> 00:55:00,422 was promoted and peddled 1878 00:54:54,917 --> 00:55:00,422 at gun shows all over. 1879 00:55:03,383 --> 00:55:04,843 ZESKIND: 1880 00:55:03,383 --> 00:55:04,843 There were a number of people 1881 00:55:04,885 --> 00:55:07,138 who traveled from gun 1882 00:55:04,885 --> 00:55:07,138 show to gun show, 1883 00:55:07,179 --> 00:55:08,513 selling and trading, 1884 00:55:08,555 --> 00:55:12,350 and Timothy McVeigh 1885 00:55:08,555 --> 00:55:12,350 became one of these people. 1886 00:55:12,392 --> 00:55:15,896 And in the process 1887 00:55:12,392 --> 00:55:15,896 he met white supremacists 1888 00:55:15,938 --> 00:55:17,355 and talked to them. 1889 00:55:17,397 --> 00:55:19,191 He sold The Turner Diaries. 1890 00:55:19,233 --> 00:55:22,987 He became embroiled 1891 00:55:19,233 --> 00:55:22,987 in the larger movement. 1892 00:55:24,155 --> 00:55:28,117 MICHEL: 1893 00:55:24,155 --> 00:55:28,117 And then he shows up at Waco. 1894 00:55:28,159 --> 00:55:30,368 He can't believe it, 1895 00:55:28,159 --> 00:55:30,368 that, you know, 1896 00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:36,000 American citizens are being held 1897 00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:36,000 there by government agents. 1898 00:55:37,251 --> 00:55:39,837 And it rivets his attention. 1899 00:55:39,878 --> 00:55:42,298 MCVEIGH: 1900 00:55:39,878 --> 00:55:42,298 Who were the aggressors? 1901 00:55:42,338 --> 00:55:45,843 Koresh wasn't giving in, 1902 00:55:42,338 --> 00:55:45,843 that's true, 1903 00:55:45,884 --> 00:55:48,344 but the FBI were the aggressors, 1904 00:55:45,884 --> 00:55:48,344 okay? 1905 00:55:48,386 --> 00:55:53,976 Everything they do exudes 1906 00:55:48,386 --> 00:55:53,976 that they are at war. 1907 00:55:54,018 --> 00:55:56,270 They're a military force at war. 1908 00:55:56,312 --> 00:55:59,231 The thing is, 1909 00:55:56,312 --> 00:55:59,231 who are they at war with? 1910 00:55:59,273 --> 00:56:03,194 Well, they're at war 1911 00:55:59,273 --> 00:56:03,194 with the American people. 1912 00:56:03,235 --> 00:56:05,904 In Waco, Texas, 1913 00:56:03,235 --> 00:56:05,904 the 40th day of the siege 1914 00:56:05,946 --> 00:56:07,906 at David Koresh's compound 1915 00:56:05,946 --> 00:56:07,906 is ending 1916 00:56:07,948 --> 00:56:09,574 just like the other 39-- 1917 00:56:09,616 --> 00:56:12,368 with Koresh and his followers 1918 00:56:09,616 --> 00:56:12,368 on the inside, 1919 00:56:12,410 --> 00:56:15,413 and federal agents outside 1920 00:56:12,410 --> 00:56:15,413 waiting for something to happen. 1921 00:56:15,455 --> 00:56:18,416 MAN: 1922 00:56:15,455 --> 00:56:18,416 David Koresh, pick up the phone. 1923 00:56:18,458 --> 00:56:21,086 The negotiators want to speak 1924 00:56:18,458 --> 00:56:21,086 with you. 1925 00:56:21,128 --> 00:56:24,006 SAGE: 1926 00:56:21,128 --> 00:56:24,006 As the negotiations continued, 1927 00:56:24,048 --> 00:56:28,384 the productivity of those 1928 00:56:24,048 --> 00:56:28,384 negotiations diminished, 1929 00:56:28,426 --> 00:56:32,430 mainly, I think, because David 1930 00:56:28,426 --> 00:56:32,430 was done sending out the people 1931 00:56:32,472 --> 00:56:33,724 that he intended to send out. 1932 00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939 KAT SCHROEDER: 1933 00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939 Those of us that left were 1934 00:56:37,895 --> 00:56:40,939 leaving because 1935 00:56:40,981 --> 00:56:45,194 we were not good for the group. 1936 00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:49,907 We were not going to help 1937 00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:49,907 the group ascend. 1938 00:56:49,948 --> 00:56:52,784 So we were kicked out. 1939 00:56:56,412 --> 00:57:03,337 The last person came out of that 1940 00:56:56,412 --> 00:57:03,337 compound on the 21st of March. 1941 00:57:05,047 --> 00:57:09,218 The last child came out 1942 00:57:05,047 --> 00:57:09,218 the 5th of March. 1943 00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:12,763 We were in a very difficult 1944 00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:12,763 situation. 1945 00:57:12,804 --> 00:57:15,515 You know, you guys, you guys, 1946 00:57:12,804 --> 00:57:15,515 you do it your way, 1947 00:57:15,557 --> 00:57:16,892 I do it my way. 1948 00:57:16,934 --> 00:57:18,476 You're going to argue with me, 1949 00:57:18,518 --> 00:57:20,271 you catch me on the side 1950 00:57:18,518 --> 00:57:20,271 of the road somewhere, 1951 00:57:20,312 --> 00:57:21,688 and you come and argue with me. 1952 00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:23,815 You come pointing guns 1953 00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:23,815 in the direction of my wives 1954 00:57:23,857 --> 00:57:28,862 and my kids, dammit, I'll meet 1955 00:57:23,857 --> 00:57:28,862 you at the door any time. 1956 00:57:28,904 --> 00:57:30,948 Nobody's fooled here. 1957 00:57:30,989 --> 00:57:33,409 We're not negotiating, okay? 1958 00:57:33,450 --> 00:57:35,869 That's over, if it ever existed. 1959 00:57:35,911 --> 00:57:40,457 We weren't accomplishing 1960 00:57:35,911 --> 00:57:40,457 anything. 1961 00:57:40,498 --> 00:57:42,126 We were just in a situation 1962 00:57:42,167 --> 00:57:44,128 that all it could do 1963 00:57:42,167 --> 00:57:44,128 was grow worse. 1964 00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508 HANCOCK: 1965 00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508 More and more people within 1966 00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:50,508 the bureau began to come around 1967 00:57:50,550 --> 00:57:52,636 to the idea that they needed 1968 00:57:50,550 --> 00:57:52,636 to do something 1969 00:57:52,677 --> 00:57:55,513 to force Koresh's hand. 1970 00:57:55,555 --> 00:58:00,518 So the FBI went to the attorney 1971 00:57:55,555 --> 00:58:00,518 general, Janet Reno, with a plan 1972 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,189 to use armored vehicles 1973 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,189 to knock holes into the building 1974 00:58:04,231 --> 00:58:08,319 and spray in tear gas. 1975 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:09,736 Initially she refused it. 1976 00:58:09,778 --> 00:58:11,322 She asked for more information. 1977 00:58:11,363 --> 00:58:16,243 So the FBI went back 1978 00:58:11,363 --> 00:58:16,243 with testimony 1979 00:58:16,285 --> 00:58:18,703 from former Davidians 1980 00:58:16,285 --> 00:58:18,703 of child sexual abuse 1981 00:58:18,745 --> 00:58:21,539 going on in Mt. Carmel. 1982 00:58:21,581 --> 00:58:26,337 And she saw the videotape 1983 00:58:21,581 --> 00:58:26,337 evidence of these young girls 1984 00:58:26,378 --> 00:58:29,298 with these babies, 1985 00:58:26,378 --> 00:58:29,298 and it confirmed to her 1986 00:58:29,340 --> 00:58:30,548 that this was going on. 1987 00:58:32,426 --> 00:58:37,222 At that point, 1988 00:58:32,426 --> 00:58:37,222 Janet Reno approved the plan. 1989 00:58:40,184 --> 00:58:43,020 STEVE SCHNEIDER: 1990 00:58:40,184 --> 00:58:43,020 Everybody grab your mask. 1991 00:58:43,061 --> 00:58:45,563 Everybody grab your mask. 1992 00:58:45,605 --> 00:58:48,317 SAGE: 1993 00:58:45,605 --> 00:58:48,317 A number of times early on, 1994 00:58:48,359 --> 00:58:51,569 we had gotten court-authorized 1995 00:58:48,359 --> 00:58:51,569 permission 1996 00:58:51,611 --> 00:58:54,698 to insert microphones 1997 00:58:51,611 --> 00:58:54,698 into that building. 1998 00:58:54,739 --> 00:58:58,576 That morning, 1999 00:58:54,739 --> 00:58:58,576 we couldn't hear anything live 2000 00:58:58,618 --> 00:59:02,539 because there was too much 2001 00:58:58,618 --> 00:59:02,539 noise, too much ambient noise. 2002 00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:06,835 But once the tapes are scrubbed, 2003 00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:06,835 someone clearly says, 2004 00:59:06,877 --> 00:59:09,296 "Put on your masks." 2005 00:59:09,338 --> 00:59:12,632 Shortly after that, 2006 00:59:09,338 --> 00:59:12,632 you distinctly hear 2007 00:59:12,674 --> 00:59:15,677 orders to spread the fuel. 2008 00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198 SAGE: 2009 00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198 All the while our guys 2010 00:59:31,943 --> 00:59:36,198 were inserting tear gas, 2011 00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:37,449 they were spreading fuel. 2012 00:59:37,491 --> 00:59:40,369 All morning long. 2013 00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163 JAMAR: 2014 00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163 Had we heard that, 2015 00:59:40,411 --> 00:59:43,163 "Spread the fuel," 2016 00:59:43,205 --> 00:59:44,789 we would have pulled back. 2017 00:59:44,831 --> 00:59:47,334 We would have pulled away. 2018 00:59:47,376 --> 00:59:49,253 And then, of course, 2019 00:59:47,376 --> 00:59:49,253 what happened, 2020 00:59:49,294 --> 00:59:52,089 it was just devastating 2021 00:59:49,294 --> 00:59:52,089 to everybody. 2022 00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:54,049 As you can see on 2023 00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:54,049 your screen, 2024 00:59:54,091 --> 00:59:56,843 there is a great deal of smoke 2025 00:59:54,091 --> 00:59:56,843 coming out from the building. 2026 00:59:56,885 --> 00:59:58,636 Let's go to Mike Capps... 2027 00:59:58,678 --> 01:00:00,347 we can also see some flames 2028 00:59:58,678 --> 01:00:00,347 there now. 2029 01:00:00,389 --> 01:00:01,723 Mike, what can you tell us? 2030 01:00:01,765 --> 01:00:03,141 What can you see? 2031 01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851 MIKE CAPPS: 2032 01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851 Well, Bonnie, 2033 01:00:03,183 --> 01:00:04,851 for the last 15 minutes, 2034 01:00:04,893 --> 01:00:08,146 we've watched this M60 vehicle, 2035 01:00:04,893 --> 01:00:08,146 this combat engineering vehicle, 2036 01:00:08,188 --> 01:00:11,567 make large holes in the side 2037 01:00:08,188 --> 01:00:11,567 of this building 2038 01:00:11,649 --> 01:00:13,610 and pump tear gas in there. 2039 01:00:13,651 --> 01:00:16,780 Now we have a very large-scale 2040 01:00:13,651 --> 01:00:16,780 fire breaking out 2041 01:00:16,821 --> 01:00:18,532 on what must be the south side, 2042 01:00:18,574 --> 01:00:21,659 right near the front side 2043 01:00:18,574 --> 01:00:21,659 of this building. 2044 01:00:21,701 --> 01:00:23,579 POTOK: 2045 01:00:21,701 --> 01:00:23,579 I went out to the roadblock, 2046 01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:27,082 and was looking through 2047 01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:27,082 a friend's television camera, 2048 01:00:27,124 --> 01:00:29,167 and noticed little tiny 2049 01:00:27,124 --> 01:00:29,167 licks of flame, 2050 01:00:29,209 --> 01:00:30,377 first out of one side 2051 01:00:29,209 --> 01:00:30,377 of the building, 2052 01:00:30,419 --> 01:00:31,545 then out of the other. 2053 01:00:31,587 --> 01:00:35,549 And in a matter of 2054 01:00:31,587 --> 01:00:35,549 it seemed like seconds, 2055 01:00:35,591 --> 01:00:38,135 the building was engulfed. 2056 01:00:38,176 --> 01:00:41,138 You know, we all stood there 2057 01:00:38,176 --> 01:00:41,138 waiting to see 2058 01:00:41,179 --> 01:00:43,681 the people come out. 2059 01:00:43,723 --> 01:00:47,894 You know, there were 80 or 90 2060 01:00:43,723 --> 01:00:47,894 people in there. 2061 01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903 SAGE: 2062 01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903 As that fire continued to build, 2063 01:00:51,189 --> 01:00:56,903 a few adults came out. 2064 01:00:56,945 --> 01:01:01,199 One of them had jumped out of 2065 01:00:56,945 --> 01:01:01,199 the second floor window, 2066 01:01:01,241 --> 01:01:04,702 and then she ran back 2067 01:01:01,241 --> 01:01:04,702 into the fire. 2068 01:01:04,744 --> 01:01:08,706 An agent started to run after 2069 01:01:04,744 --> 01:01:08,706 her, went into the building, 2070 01:01:08,748 --> 01:01:10,375 grabbed her, 2071 01:01:08,748 --> 01:01:10,375 and pulled her out, 2072 01:01:10,417 --> 01:01:12,710 and she was ready to ignite. 2073 01:01:12,752 --> 01:01:16,840 I mean, there was smoke 2074 01:01:12,752 --> 01:01:16,840 trailing off of her clothes. 2075 01:01:19,635 --> 01:01:21,678 Nine adults came out. 2076 01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:25,682 Not one of them 2077 01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:25,682 brought a child out. 2078 01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441 JAMAR: 2079 01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441 The part that we played 2080 01:01:29,769 --> 01:01:34,441 cannot be ignored. 2081 01:01:34,483 --> 01:01:36,734 We provoked the circumstances, 2082 01:01:36,776 --> 01:01:41,739 but David Koresh decided 2083 01:01:36,776 --> 01:01:41,739 who was going to die. 2084 01:01:41,781 --> 01:01:44,242 What happened was to serve 2085 01:01:41,781 --> 01:01:44,242 his purpose, 2086 01:01:44,284 --> 01:01:46,537 and that's the most 2087 01:01:44,284 --> 01:01:46,537 devastating thing to me, 2088 01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:49,873 is I served his purpose 2089 01:01:46,578 --> 01:01:49,873 to a terrible degree. 2090 01:02:03,679 --> 01:02:04,971 BUFORD: 2091 01:02:03,679 --> 01:02:04,971 When I saw the fire, 2092 01:02:05,013 --> 01:02:09,059 all I could think about 2093 01:02:05,013 --> 01:02:09,059 were the children in there. 2094 01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:11,186 You know, the parents had made 2095 01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:11,186 their own decisions, 2096 01:02:11,228 --> 01:02:13,063 but those kids didn't make 2097 01:02:11,228 --> 01:02:13,063 any decisions. 2098 01:02:15,315 --> 01:02:18,776 I literally bawled 2099 01:02:15,315 --> 01:02:18,776 when I saw it. 2100 01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:23,532 It was Armageddon, 2101 01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:23,532 just like he said it would be. 2102 01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516 WRIGHT: 2103 01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516 At Ruby Ridge, Americans saw 2104 01:02:43,552 --> 01:02:49,516 the deaths of two people. 2105 01:02:49,558 --> 01:02:53,437 But at Waco, 2106 01:02:49,558 --> 01:02:53,437 they saw massive deaths. 2107 01:02:53,478 --> 01:02:56,022 There were people who had 2108 01:02:53,478 --> 01:02:56,022 a legitimate argument 2109 01:02:56,064 --> 01:02:57,899 that there were all kinds 2110 01:02:56,064 --> 01:02:57,899 of mistakes made 2111 01:02:57,941 --> 01:02:59,817 and this could have ended 2112 01:02:57,941 --> 01:02:59,817 very differently. 2113 01:02:59,859 --> 01:03:04,030 But other people were saying 2114 01:02:59,859 --> 01:03:04,030 this was a government massacre 2115 01:03:04,072 --> 01:03:06,783 on a scale 2116 01:03:04,072 --> 01:03:06,783 nobody had seen before. 2117 01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:13,331 It was certainly framed 2118 01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:13,331 in this manner by the far right, 2119 01:03:13,373 --> 01:03:16,460 and the reaction 2120 01:03:13,373 --> 01:03:16,460 was almost immediate. 2121 01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:19,963 We have several witnesses 2122 01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:19,963 that say that they saw 2123 01:03:20,004 --> 01:03:22,591 25 to 30 people exiting out 2124 01:03:20,004 --> 01:03:22,591 these double doors 2125 01:03:22,633 --> 01:03:25,969 to escape the fire, and that 2126 01:03:22,633 --> 01:03:25,969 these people were gunned down 2127 01:03:26,010 --> 01:03:27,845 in cold blood 2128 01:03:26,010 --> 01:03:27,845 as they tried to escape. 2129 01:03:27,887 --> 01:03:32,434 There were several films made 2130 01:03:27,887 --> 01:03:32,434 by people on the radical right, 2131 01:03:32,476 --> 01:03:34,811 which claimed that this had been 2132 01:03:32,476 --> 01:03:34,811 a deliberate murder. 2133 01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856 HANCOCK: 2134 01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856 One of the 2135 01:03:34,852 --> 01:03:38,856 earliest was a documentary 2136 01:03:38,898 --> 01:03:41,276 called Waco: The Big Lie. 2137 01:03:41,318 --> 01:03:44,404 The crucial footage 2138 01:03:41,318 --> 01:03:44,404 that they used 2139 01:03:44,446 --> 01:03:46,072 was footage on the day 2140 01:03:44,446 --> 01:03:46,072 of the fire, 2141 01:03:46,114 --> 01:03:49,033 where they alleged that 2142 01:03:46,114 --> 01:03:49,033 if you looked at the footage 2143 01:03:49,075 --> 01:03:51,703 the right way, 2144 01:03:49,075 --> 01:03:51,703 that you could see 2145 01:03:51,745 --> 01:03:54,706 the tanks actually setting fire 2146 01:03:51,745 --> 01:03:54,706 to the building. 2147 01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916 ARCHIVAL NARRATOR: 2148 01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916 At the same time as fire 2149 01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,916 was already breaking out 2150 01:03:56,958 --> 01:03:59,252 in the back of the house, 2151 01:03:56,958 --> 01:03:59,252 as you just saw, 2152 01:03:59,294 --> 01:04:01,463 as this tank backs out, 2153 01:03:59,294 --> 01:04:01,463 flame can be seen 2154 01:04:01,505 --> 01:04:03,423 shooting from the front of it. 2155 01:04:03,465 --> 01:04:06,176 When someone could 2156 01:04:03,465 --> 01:04:06,176 package the footage 2157 01:04:06,217 --> 01:04:08,595 that had disturbed 2158 01:04:06,217 --> 01:04:08,595 everybody in America 2159 01:04:08,637 --> 01:04:14,184 with a potent message about, 2160 01:04:08,637 --> 01:04:14,184 you know, government atrocities, 2161 01:04:14,225 --> 01:04:16,353 it touched a chord. 2162 01:04:16,394 --> 01:04:19,981 You know, those who had a 2163 01:04:16,394 --> 01:04:19,981 tendency to doubt the government 2164 01:04:20,023 --> 01:04:23,568 were enraged. 2165 01:04:23,610 --> 01:04:26,904 HERBECK: 2166 01:04:23,610 --> 01:04:26,904 When the fire started at Waco, 2167 01:04:26,946 --> 01:04:30,908 Tim McVeigh was at a friend's 2168 01:04:26,946 --> 01:04:30,908 farmhouse up in Michigan. 2169 01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:35,455 He was working on a vehicle 2170 01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:35,455 out in the yard 2171 01:04:35,497 --> 01:04:38,375 and somebody yelled out, 2172 01:04:35,497 --> 01:04:38,375 "Tim, come in here. 2173 01:04:38,416 --> 01:04:39,876 You've got to see this on 2174 01:04:38,416 --> 01:04:39,876 television." 2175 01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421 MCVEIGH: 2176 01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421 I'm watching flames 2177 01:04:39,917 --> 01:04:43,421 lick out windows, 2178 01:04:43,463 --> 01:04:46,383 and I'm watching 2179 01:04:43,463 --> 01:04:46,383 tanks ram walls, 2180 01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,302 and my eyes just welled up 2181 01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,302 in tears, 2182 01:04:49,344 --> 01:04:52,096 and tears started 2183 01:04:49,344 --> 01:04:52,096 coming down my cheeks 2184 01:04:52,138 --> 01:04:55,308 as I'm watching 2185 01:04:52,138 --> 01:04:55,308 this scene unfold. 2186 01:04:55,350 --> 01:04:57,894 I'm not going to shy away from 2187 01:04:55,350 --> 01:04:57,894 the word rage. 2188 01:04:57,935 --> 01:05:01,272 For me, I felt absolute rage. 2189 01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943 HERBECK: 2190 01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943 For Tim McVeigh, 2191 01:05:03,191 --> 01:05:05,943 it was all happening 2192 01:05:05,985 --> 01:05:11,199 because of the U.S. government, 2193 01:05:05,985 --> 01:05:11,199 the biggest bully in the world. 2194 01:05:11,241 --> 01:05:13,451 (applause) 2195 01:05:13,493 --> 01:05:17,955 And just a few months later, 2196 01:05:13,493 --> 01:05:17,955 the Brady Bill passes. 2197 01:05:17,997 --> 01:05:23,253 It has a ban on several assault 2198 01:05:17,997 --> 01:05:23,253 weapons, long overdue. 2199 01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798 HERBECK: 2200 01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798 Like many people, Tim McVeigh 2201 01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:26,798 was convinced 2202 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,718 that the Brady Bill meant 2203 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,718 that the government 2204 01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,889 was going to take guns away 2205 01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,889 from law-abiding citizens. 2206 01:05:33,930 --> 01:05:35,973 A ban on handgun ownership 2207 01:05:36,015 --> 01:05:39,770 and restrictions on possession 2208 01:05:36,015 --> 01:05:39,770 of handguns by minors, 2209 01:05:39,811 --> 01:05:40,729 the beginning of reform 2210 01:05:40,771 --> 01:05:43,774 of our federal firearms 2211 01:05:40,771 --> 01:05:43,774 licensing systems. 2212 01:05:43,815 --> 01:05:45,859 (applause) 2213 01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822 LEVITAS: 2214 01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822 The combination of the perceived 2215 01:05:45,901 --> 01:05:50,822 government assassination 2216 01:05:50,864 --> 01:05:52,031 of the Weaver family, 2217 01:05:52,073 --> 01:05:56,160 the perceived military 2218 01:05:52,073 --> 01:05:56,160 government murdering 2219 01:05:56,202 --> 01:06:01,082 its own citizens in Waco, 2220 01:05:56,202 --> 01:06:01,082 and then the Brady Bill, 2221 01:06:01,124 --> 01:06:04,001 the government coming after 2222 01:06:01,124 --> 01:06:04,001 your guns, 2223 01:06:04,043 --> 01:06:09,132 just exploded the recruitment 2224 01:06:04,043 --> 01:06:09,132 of anti-government extremists. 2225 01:06:09,173 --> 01:06:12,677 We have a government 2226 01:06:09,173 --> 01:06:12,677 that is on the verge 2227 01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:15,639 of being completely out 2228 01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:15,639 of control. 2229 01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,684 They allow tyrants to come in 2230 01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,684 with hooded masks on, 2231 01:06:19,726 --> 01:06:23,647 unidentified, 2232 01:06:19,726 --> 01:06:23,647 bust down your door. 2233 01:06:23,688 --> 01:06:26,608 It's happened all over America. 2234 01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527 PHIL DONAHUE: 2235 01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527 This is the new thing 2236 01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:29,527 in America. 2237 01:06:29,569 --> 01:06:31,028 It's called the militia. 2238 01:06:31,070 --> 01:06:33,156 No, they say 2239 01:06:31,070 --> 01:06:33,156 they're not racist. 2240 01:06:33,197 --> 01:06:34,866 It's not just about guns 2241 01:06:33,197 --> 01:06:34,866 and possession of guns, 2242 01:06:34,908 --> 01:06:37,619 but the 2nd Amendment's 2243 01:06:34,908 --> 01:06:37,619 involved here, definitely. 2244 01:06:37,661 --> 01:06:39,120 They're proud of 2245 01:06:37,661 --> 01:06:39,120 their 2nd amendment. 2246 01:06:39,162 --> 01:06:43,040 And by God no constable is going 2247 01:06:39,162 --> 01:06:43,040 to come from some faraway place 2248 01:06:43,082 --> 01:06:45,376 and break their 2249 01:06:43,082 --> 01:06:45,376 door down. 2250 01:06:45,418 --> 01:06:47,420 They'll shoot 'em first. 2251 01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760 ZESKIND: 2252 01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760 There had been a spurt of growth 2253 01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:53,760 in militia organizations 2254 01:06:53,802 --> 01:06:55,971 after Ruby Ridge. 2255 01:06:56,012 --> 01:07:01,476 But Waco, and the Brady Bill, 2256 01:06:56,012 --> 01:07:01,476 accelerates the movement. 2257 01:07:01,518 --> 01:07:04,061 By the end of '93, 2258 01:07:04,103 --> 01:07:08,984 there was a huge underground of 2259 01:07:04,103 --> 01:07:08,984 armed white supremacist militias 2260 01:07:09,066 --> 01:07:13,780 all over the country, 2261 01:07:09,066 --> 01:07:13,780 all of them dedicated 2262 01:07:13,822 --> 01:07:16,700 to resistance 2263 01:07:13,822 --> 01:07:16,700 to the federal government. 2264 01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915 HERBECK: 2265 01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915 Tim McVeigh didn't actually 2266 01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,915 belong to a militia group 2267 01:07:23,957 --> 01:07:27,836 but he certainly 2268 01:07:23,957 --> 01:07:27,836 had the same opinions 2269 01:07:27,878 --> 01:07:30,797 about the government that many 2270 01:07:27,878 --> 01:07:30,797 of the militia groups had. 2271 01:07:32,757 --> 01:07:34,091 For Tim McVeigh, 2272 01:07:34,133 --> 01:07:38,346 it was all part of a massive 2273 01:07:34,133 --> 01:07:38,346 government conspiracy. 2274 01:07:38,388 --> 01:07:43,685 All these events, 2275 01:07:38,388 --> 01:07:43,685 they were all connected 2276 01:07:43,727 --> 01:07:48,231 and it was all leading down 2277 01:07:43,727 --> 01:07:48,231 a path that was going to end 2278 01:07:48,272 --> 01:07:51,609 with federal agents 2279 01:07:48,272 --> 01:07:51,609 coming to his home 2280 01:07:51,651 --> 01:07:54,988 and the homes of gun owners 2281 01:07:51,651 --> 01:07:54,988 all over America 2282 01:07:55,030 --> 01:08:00,035 and storming into those homes 2283 01:07:55,030 --> 01:08:00,035 and taking their guns away. 2284 01:08:02,161 --> 01:08:04,121 I think from that moment on, 2285 01:08:04,163 --> 01:08:08,125 he was trying to determine what 2286 01:08:04,163 --> 01:08:08,125 terrorist act to commit 2287 01:08:08,167 --> 01:08:10,879 against the U.S. government. 2288 01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728 WILLIAM PIERCE: 2289 01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728 "My day's work started a little 2290 01:08:23,182 --> 01:08:26,728 before 5:00 yesterday 2291 01:08:26,770 --> 01:08:29,606 "when I began helping Ed Sanders 2292 01:08:26,770 --> 01:08:29,606 mix heating oil 2293 01:08:29,647 --> 01:08:35,152 with the ammonium nitrate 2294 01:08:29,647 --> 01:08:35,152 fertilizer in unit 8's garage." 2295 01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573 HERBECK: 2296 01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573 Tim McVeigh had read 2297 01:08:35,194 --> 01:08:38,573 in The Turner Diaries 2298 01:08:38,615 --> 01:08:42,326 of how, generally, you 2299 01:08:38,615 --> 01:08:42,326 could build a truck bomb. 2300 01:08:42,368 --> 01:08:46,163 He found other articles 2301 01:08:46,205 --> 01:08:51,377 that told him exactly 2302 01:08:46,205 --> 01:08:51,377 how to build a truck bomb. 2303 01:08:51,419 --> 01:08:55,214 He wanted to do what 2304 01:08:51,419 --> 01:08:55,214 Earl Turner did: 2305 01:08:55,256 --> 01:08:57,759 take down a government building. 2306 01:09:05,224 --> 01:09:09,813 McVeigh truly believed that 2307 01:09:05,224 --> 01:09:09,813 he had two comrades in arms 2308 01:09:09,854 --> 01:09:12,523 in Terry Nichols 2309 01:09:09,854 --> 01:09:12,523 and Michael Fortier. 2310 01:09:12,565 --> 01:09:16,193 They go back to the Army. 2311 01:09:16,235 --> 01:09:19,280 They all like 2312 01:09:16,235 --> 01:09:19,280 The Turner Diaries. 2313 01:09:19,322 --> 01:09:22,659 They all shared the same 2314 01:09:19,322 --> 01:09:22,659 antigovernment thoughts. 2315 01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:27,204 They all wanted to show 2316 01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:27,204 that somebody could attack 2317 01:09:27,246 --> 01:09:30,166 the U.S. government, 2318 01:09:27,246 --> 01:09:30,166 that it was that vulnerable. 2319 01:09:32,043 --> 01:09:36,380 To get started, they knew that 2320 01:09:32,043 --> 01:09:36,380 they needed the main ingredient, 2321 01:09:36,422 --> 01:09:38,967 which was fertilizer. 2322 01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223 POTOK: 2323 01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223 They start to buy bag after bag 2324 01:09:39,009 --> 01:09:46,223 after bag of ammonium nitrate. 2325 01:09:46,265 --> 01:09:50,227 Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols 2326 01:09:46,265 --> 01:09:50,227 break into a storage shed 2327 01:09:50,269 --> 01:09:55,316 at a quarry and they steal 2328 01:09:50,269 --> 01:09:55,316 these explosive Tovex sausages, 2329 01:09:55,358 --> 01:09:58,194 which will make the bomb 2330 01:09:55,358 --> 01:09:58,194 more powerful. 2331 01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824 HERBECK: 2332 01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824 It wasn't easy to get 2333 01:10:00,113 --> 01:10:02,824 some of this stuff. 2334 01:10:02,866 --> 01:10:05,451 Some of the explosives 2335 01:10:02,866 --> 01:10:05,451 were not available 2336 01:10:05,493 --> 01:10:07,037 to the average citizen. 2337 01:10:07,078 --> 01:10:12,249 They spent months and months 2338 01:10:07,078 --> 01:10:12,249 getting the parts 2339 01:10:12,291 --> 01:10:14,585 of this bomb together. 2340 01:10:14,627 --> 01:10:18,339 Fortier's role was 2341 01:10:14,627 --> 01:10:18,339 very, very limited. 2342 01:10:18,381 --> 01:10:21,467 Nichols had a bigger role, 2343 01:10:21,509 --> 01:10:25,596 but, really, just following 2344 01:10:21,509 --> 01:10:25,596 orders from McVeigh. 2345 01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266 POTOK: 2346 01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266 And then, Tim McVeigh 2347 01:10:25,638 --> 01:10:29,266 manages to get 2348 01:10:29,308 --> 01:10:34,689 some 55-gallon drums of 2349 01:10:29,308 --> 01:10:34,689 nitromethane racing fuel. 2350 01:10:34,731 --> 01:10:37,400 The bomb that was depicted 2351 01:10:34,731 --> 01:10:37,400 in The Turner Diaries 2352 01:10:37,441 --> 01:10:39,276 was ammonium nitrate 2353 01:10:37,441 --> 01:10:39,276 and fuel oil. 2354 01:10:39,318 --> 01:10:44,866 McVeigh was going to amp up his 2355 01:10:39,318 --> 01:10:44,866 bomb really dramatically 2356 01:10:44,908 --> 01:10:48,036 by using this much, much 2357 01:10:44,908 --> 01:10:48,036 more volatile fuel. 2358 01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417 HERBECK: 2359 01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417 During this time 2360 01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:54,417 that he was driving around 2361 01:10:54,458 --> 01:10:56,293 getting his materials 2362 01:10:54,458 --> 01:10:56,293 for the bomb, 2363 01:10:56,335 --> 01:11:01,257 McVeigh was basically on this 2364 01:10:56,335 --> 01:11:01,257 anti-government odyssey. 2365 01:11:03,342 --> 01:11:12,309 He visited a militia compound, 2366 01:11:03,342 --> 01:11:12,309 he visited Area 51 in Roswell, 2367 01:11:12,351 --> 01:11:14,687 and he visited Waco. 2368 01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152 FENWICK: 2369 01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152 It was very important to him 2370 01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:21,152 to go bear witness 2371 01:11:21,194 --> 01:11:23,738 to what had happened, 2372 01:11:23,780 --> 01:11:28,284 to make himself feel that-that 2373 01:11:23,780 --> 01:11:28,284 place and that moment. 2374 01:11:33,581 --> 01:11:35,083 It was also around this time 2375 01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:38,544 that he and Fortier and Nichols 2376 01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:38,544 began selecting 2377 01:11:38,586 --> 01:11:42,173 what was going to be the target 2378 01:11:38,586 --> 01:11:42,173 of their bomb. 2379 01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801 WRIGHT: 2380 01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801 They went to Little Rock, 2381 01:11:42,215 --> 01:11:44,801 Arkansas. 2382 01:11:44,842 --> 01:11:47,220 They went to Tulsa. 2383 01:11:47,262 --> 01:11:49,139 They went to Dallas. 2384 01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:53,476 They picked the Murrah Building 2385 01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:53,476 in Oklahoma City, in part, 2386 01:11:53,517 --> 01:11:55,019 because the ATF, 2387 01:11:55,061 --> 01:11:58,481 who had conducted the raid 2388 01:11:55,061 --> 01:11:58,481 on the Branch Davidians, 2389 01:11:58,522 --> 01:12:01,734 had an office in the building. 2390 01:12:01,776 --> 01:12:04,361 They thought it was 2391 01:12:01,776 --> 01:12:04,361 appropriately symbolic 2392 01:12:04,403 --> 01:12:05,947 that they would go after 2393 01:12:04,403 --> 01:12:05,947 somebody 2394 01:12:05,989 --> 01:12:08,283 who was directly connected 2395 01:12:05,989 --> 01:12:08,283 to Waco. 2396 01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455 FENWICK: 2397 01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455 The Murrah Building 2398 01:12:10,952 --> 01:12:14,455 had numerous federal offices. 2399 01:12:14,497 --> 01:12:17,374 It had HUD, it had the ATF. 2400 01:12:17,416 --> 01:12:20,628 It had general accounting 2401 01:12:17,416 --> 01:12:20,628 offices. 2402 01:12:20,670 --> 01:12:23,047 It had military recruiters, 2403 01:12:23,089 --> 01:12:24,882 the Social Security 2404 01:12:23,089 --> 01:12:24,882 Administration, 2405 01:12:24,924 --> 01:12:26,217 the DEA was in there. 2406 01:12:26,259 --> 01:12:28,761 And there is some question 2407 01:12:26,259 --> 01:12:28,761 as to whether or not 2408 01:12:28,803 --> 01:12:32,056 McVeigh knew there was 2409 01:12:28,803 --> 01:12:32,056 a day care in there, 2410 01:12:32,098 --> 01:12:33,808 but he also kind of indicated 2411 01:12:33,850 --> 01:12:36,060 that it wouldn't have made 2412 01:12:33,850 --> 01:12:36,060 the difference anyway. 2413 01:12:37,436 --> 01:12:42,108 Michael Fortier began feeling 2414 01:12:37,436 --> 01:12:42,108 uneasy about doing this. 2415 01:12:42,150 --> 01:12:46,196 He suddenly visualized 2416 01:12:42,150 --> 01:12:46,196 what was going to happen. 2417 01:12:47,905 --> 01:12:50,200 He points out that there were 2418 01:12:47,905 --> 01:12:50,200 probably going to be 2419 01:12:50,241 --> 01:12:53,410 innocent people inside 2420 01:12:50,241 --> 01:12:53,410 that are going to die. 2421 01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290 WRIGHT: 2422 01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290 McVeigh told him, 2423 01:12:53,452 --> 01:12:57,290 "There has to be a body count." 2424 01:12:57,332 --> 01:13:02,586 He said, "The government's not 2425 01:12:57,332 --> 01:13:02,586 going to sit up and take notice 2426 01:13:02,628 --> 01:13:04,047 unless there's a body count." 2427 01:13:04,088 --> 01:13:05,798 "They can always build 2428 01:13:04,088 --> 01:13:05,798 a new building, 2429 01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:07,466 but a body count 2430 01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:07,466 will get their attention." 2431 01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222 MCVEIGH: 2432 01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222 From a military perspective, 2433 01:13:07,508 --> 01:13:12,222 to get a message across, 2434 01:13:12,263 --> 01:13:17,601 you need to hurt them 2435 01:13:12,263 --> 01:13:17,601 where they hurt the most. 2436 01:13:17,643 --> 01:13:19,770 The only way they're going 2437 01:13:17,643 --> 01:13:19,770 to feel something, 2438 01:13:19,812 --> 01:13:21,856 and the only way they're going 2439 01:13:19,812 --> 01:13:21,856 to get the message 2440 01:13:21,898 --> 01:13:24,359 is with a body count. 2441 01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447 MICHEL: 2442 01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447 Tim picks April 19 2443 01:13:27,237 --> 01:13:30,447 for the bombing 2444 01:13:30,489 --> 01:13:35,494 because it will be the 2445 01:13:30,489 --> 01:13:35,494 anniversary of the fire at Waco. 2446 01:13:35,536 --> 01:13:39,207 On Easter Sunday, 2447 01:13:35,536 --> 01:13:39,207 three days before, 2448 01:13:39,249 --> 01:13:42,459 Tim McVeigh calls Terry Nichols 2449 01:13:39,249 --> 01:13:42,459 and says it's time. 2450 01:13:42,501 --> 01:13:47,215 HERBECK: 2451 01:13:42,501 --> 01:13:47,215 He and Nichols, separately, 2452 01:13:47,257 --> 01:13:52,136 drove from Kansas 2453 01:13:47,257 --> 01:13:52,136 to Oklahoma City. 2454 01:13:52,178 --> 01:13:55,806 McVeigh took his $300 2455 01:13:52,178 --> 01:13:55,806 getaway car 2456 01:13:55,848 --> 01:13:59,476 and stashed it in a little 2457 01:13:55,848 --> 01:13:59,476 parking lot. 2458 01:13:59,518 --> 01:14:03,647 He put a sign in the window, 2459 01:13:59,518 --> 01:14:03,647 "Please Do Not Tow," 2460 01:14:03,689 --> 01:14:08,569 and then they 2461 01:14:03,689 --> 01:14:08,569 drove back to Kansas. 2462 01:14:08,611 --> 01:14:11,572 The next day McVeigh goes alone, 2463 01:14:08,611 --> 01:14:11,572 apparently, 2464 01:14:11,614 --> 01:14:14,325 to rent a truck 2465 01:14:11,614 --> 01:14:14,325 in Junction City, 2466 01:14:14,367 --> 01:14:18,495 the big Ryder truck 2467 01:14:14,367 --> 01:14:18,495 that he will use as a bomb. 2468 01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207 HERSLEY: 2469 01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207 They asked him: 2470 01:14:18,537 --> 01:14:21,207 "Do you need insurance on it?" 2471 01:14:21,249 --> 01:14:22,708 He said, "No, I won't need 2472 01:14:21,249 --> 01:14:22,708 any insurance." 2473 01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:24,127 And they said, 2474 01:14:22,750 --> 01:14:24,127 "Do you need any extra days?" 2475 01:14:24,168 --> 01:14:25,502 And he answered, "No, 2476 01:14:24,168 --> 01:14:25,502 I won't need any extra days." 2477 01:14:25,544 --> 01:14:29,506 We actually have him on video 2478 01:14:25,544 --> 01:14:29,506 coming in to the McDonald's 2479 01:14:29,548 --> 01:14:32,468 about a mile away from 2480 01:14:29,548 --> 01:14:32,468 where he picked up the truck. 2481 01:14:36,639 --> 01:14:40,310 HERBECK: 2482 01:14:36,639 --> 01:14:40,310 April 18 was bomb making day. 2483 01:14:40,351 --> 01:14:45,648 McVeigh drove the truck out 2484 01:14:40,351 --> 01:14:45,648 to Geary Lake State Park, 2485 01:14:45,689 --> 01:14:48,567 where they would assemble 2486 01:14:45,689 --> 01:14:48,567 the bomb. 2487 01:14:48,609 --> 01:14:50,987 He was extremely upset 2488 01:14:51,028 --> 01:14:53,697 because Nichols was starting 2489 01:14:51,028 --> 01:14:53,697 to get cold feet. 2490 01:14:53,739 --> 01:14:58,535 He threatened to kill Nichols 2491 01:14:53,739 --> 01:14:58,535 and his family 2492 01:14:58,577 --> 01:15:03,249 if Nichols refused to help him 2493 01:14:58,577 --> 01:15:03,249 with the final preparations. 2494 01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003 MCVEIGH: 2495 01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003 The bomb was primarily assembled 2496 01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,003 by myself, 2497 01:15:07,044 --> 01:15:09,088 with a little assistance 2498 01:15:07,044 --> 01:15:09,088 from another, 2499 01:15:09,130 --> 01:15:12,591 who was under duress 2500 01:15:09,130 --> 01:15:12,591 to assist me. 2501 01:15:12,633 --> 01:15:14,551 I was the one that primed 2502 01:15:12,633 --> 01:15:14,551 the charges, 2503 01:15:14,593 --> 01:15:18,097 that crimped the caps to 2504 01:15:14,593 --> 01:15:18,097 the fuse, primed each barrel, 2505 01:15:18,139 --> 01:15:20,516 made sure there was 2506 01:15:18,139 --> 01:15:20,516 redundant fusing systems. 2507 01:15:20,557 --> 01:15:23,311 And it only took three hours. 2508 01:15:23,353 --> 01:15:25,688 FENWICK: 2509 01:15:23,353 --> 01:15:25,688 After they get the bomb built, 2510 01:15:25,729 --> 01:15:28,858 Terry Nichols made it very clear 2511 01:15:25,729 --> 01:15:28,858 he was not going to join McVeigh 2512 01:15:28,899 --> 01:15:30,609 the morning of the bombing. 2513 01:15:30,651 --> 01:15:35,156 And so they said goodbye, shook 2514 01:15:30,651 --> 01:15:35,156 hands, Nichols wishes him luck, 2515 01:15:35,198 --> 01:15:38,534 and then he gets in the truck 2516 01:15:35,198 --> 01:15:38,534 and he drives south. 2517 01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251 HERBECK: 2518 01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251 He was nervous as he drove 2519 01:15:43,622 --> 01:15:47,251 into Oklahoma City, 2520 01:15:48,252 --> 01:15:52,715 but I don't think 2521 01:15:48,252 --> 01:15:52,715 he ever second-guessed himself. 2522 01:15:52,756 --> 01:15:55,051 I don't think he ever thought 2523 01:15:52,756 --> 01:15:55,051 for a minute 2524 01:15:55,092 --> 01:15:57,761 that this was the wrong thing 2525 01:15:55,092 --> 01:15:57,761 to do. 2526 01:16:00,764 --> 01:16:03,059 When he got close 2527 01:16:00,764 --> 01:16:03,059 to the building, 2528 01:16:03,100 --> 01:16:05,436 he pulled the truck over, 2529 01:16:05,478 --> 01:16:09,648 and lit two different fuses 2530 01:16:05,478 --> 01:16:09,648 leading back to the bomb. 2531 01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322 HERSLEY: 2532 01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322 The last video that 2533 01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:16,322 we have of him was at 8:57 2534 01:16:16,364 --> 01:16:19,783 in front of the 2535 01:16:16,364 --> 01:16:19,783 Regency Tower Apartments. 2536 01:16:19,825 --> 01:16:22,119 At that point in time, 2537 01:16:19,825 --> 01:16:22,119 he was about 2538 01:16:22,161 --> 01:16:24,497 a block and a half 2539 01:16:22,161 --> 01:16:24,497 west of the Murrah Building. 2540 01:16:26,082 --> 01:16:28,376 NORFLEET: 2541 01:16:26,082 --> 01:16:28,376 As I was driving past, 2542 01:16:28,418 --> 01:16:31,003 I noticed this yellow 2543 01:16:28,418 --> 01:16:31,003 Ryder truck 2544 01:16:31,045 --> 01:16:35,299 pulled into the loading zone 2545 01:16:31,045 --> 01:16:35,299 in front of the building. 2546 01:16:35,341 --> 01:16:38,344 A young man got 2547 01:16:35,341 --> 01:16:38,344 out of the truck. 2548 01:16:38,386 --> 01:16:42,139 He had a military haircut 2549 01:16:38,386 --> 01:16:42,139 and the T-shirt, and I thought, 2550 01:16:42,181 --> 01:16:44,767 "Well, okay, that's a sergeant 2551 01:16:42,181 --> 01:16:44,767 or something 2552 01:16:44,808 --> 01:16:46,643 "checking into the command. 2553 01:16:46,685 --> 01:16:48,187 "But what in the world 2554 01:16:46,685 --> 01:16:48,187 is he doing 2555 01:16:48,229 --> 01:16:50,606 going away from the building?" 2556 01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028 MCVEIGH: 2557 01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028 I walked very slowly 2558 01:16:52,275 --> 01:16:56,028 toward the YMCA. 2559 01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:58,948 Once I got in the blind alley 2560 01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:58,948 of the YMCA, 2561 01:16:58,989 --> 01:17:02,577 I did jog because I knew 2562 01:16:58,989 --> 01:17:02,577 nobody was looking. 2563 01:17:08,707 --> 01:17:11,627 (explosion) 2564 01:17:30,187 --> 01:17:31,647 FLOWERS: 2565 01:17:30,187 --> 01:17:31,647 Later that morning, 2566 01:17:31,688 --> 01:17:35,692 we went into the south side 2567 01:17:31,688 --> 01:17:35,692 of the building, not knowing 2568 01:17:35,734 --> 01:17:38,279 what we were fixing to walk 2569 01:17:35,734 --> 01:17:38,279 into was the daycare center. 2570 01:17:39,822 --> 01:17:42,074 The granite floor was 2571 01:17:39,822 --> 01:17:42,074 all busted and broken 2572 01:17:42,116 --> 01:17:45,244 and just, you know, 2573 01:17:42,116 --> 01:17:45,244 going every which way. 2574 01:17:45,286 --> 01:17:46,703 And as I'm fixing to go in, 2575 01:17:46,745 --> 01:17:50,707 one of the Oklahoma City 2576 01:17:46,745 --> 01:17:50,707 officers comes walking out 2577 01:17:50,749 --> 01:17:51,875 carrying a little boy. 2578 01:17:51,917 --> 01:17:53,586 It's where the elevators 2579 01:17:51,917 --> 01:17:53,586 used to be! 2580 01:17:53,628 --> 01:17:54,878 I can't. 2581 01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,631 Let me have him. 2582 01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,631 I can't. 2583 01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:57,756 FLOWERS: 2584 01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:57,756 And I just turned 2585 01:17:57,798 --> 01:18:01,594 and took a second breath and 2586 01:17:57,798 --> 01:18:01,594 went into the daycare center. 2587 01:18:04,597 --> 01:18:07,724 We were moving debris, 2588 01:18:04,597 --> 01:18:07,724 we were picking up boulders. 2589 01:18:07,766 --> 01:18:10,811 Literally everyone was digging 2590 01:18:07,766 --> 01:18:10,811 on their hands and knees, 2591 01:18:10,853 --> 01:18:12,396 trying to get to these kids. 2592 01:18:15,650 --> 01:18:18,277 (siren wailing) 2593 01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322 GARRETT: 2594 01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322 The children were coming out 2595 01:18:18,319 --> 01:18:21,322 one by one. 2596 01:18:21,364 --> 01:18:24,450 Brandon was severely injured. 2597 01:18:24,492 --> 01:18:27,495 So was Nekia. 2598 01:18:27,537 --> 01:18:32,082 Rebecca, um, just seemed to me, 2599 01:18:27,537 --> 01:18:32,082 and I... 2600 01:18:32,124 --> 01:18:34,627 it just seemed as though 2601 01:18:32,124 --> 01:18:34,627 she was just dipped in blood. 2602 01:18:36,379 --> 01:18:38,255 The next baby 2603 01:18:36,379 --> 01:18:38,255 that they brought out, 2604 01:18:38,297 --> 01:18:41,342 they went to lay 2605 01:18:38,297 --> 01:18:41,342 this baby on the ground. 2606 01:18:43,302 --> 01:18:46,430 They had these perfectly folded 2607 01:18:43,302 --> 01:18:46,430 white sheets 2608 01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:48,265 and they would bring 2609 01:18:46,472 --> 01:18:48,265 another one out, 2610 01:18:48,307 --> 01:18:51,768 and they would bring another 2611 01:18:48,307 --> 01:18:51,768 one, and another one. 2612 01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:58,192 And they lay them in a line, 2613 01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:58,192 wrapped in these sheets. 2614 01:18:58,234 --> 01:19:02,863 And then a nurse came, 2615 01:18:58,234 --> 01:19:02,863 and she moved the blanket 2616 01:19:02,905 --> 01:19:05,741 back from their feet, 2617 01:19:05,782 --> 01:19:10,580 and she was writing things, and 2618 01:19:05,782 --> 01:19:10,580 she tagged their little feet. 2619 01:19:10,621 --> 01:19:14,791 And I think that's 2620 01:19:10,621 --> 01:19:14,791 when reality, you know, set in, 2621 01:19:14,833 --> 01:19:17,753 that my son Tevin's 2622 01:19:14,833 --> 01:19:17,753 not coming home. 2623 01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050 FLOWERS: 2624 01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050 When a baby's body was carried 2625 01:19:20,797 --> 01:19:23,050 out of that building, 2626 01:19:23,092 --> 01:19:25,595 even though one person 2627 01:19:23,092 --> 01:19:25,595 carried that baby, 2628 01:19:25,636 --> 01:19:28,305 (voice breaking): 2629 01:19:25,636 --> 01:19:28,305 we all carried that baby. 2630 01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:30,474 And when we laid him down onto 2631 01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:30,474 that makeshift morgue 2632 01:19:30,516 --> 01:19:32,184 and lined those children up 2633 01:19:30,516 --> 01:19:32,184 out there, 2634 01:19:32,226 --> 01:19:34,353 that was really 2635 01:19:32,226 --> 01:19:34,353 a hard thing to see, 2636 01:19:34,395 --> 01:19:36,813 because that was all 2637 01:19:34,395 --> 01:19:36,813 of our kids. 2638 01:19:36,855 --> 01:19:39,024 That was everybody's kids. 2639 01:19:39,066 --> 01:19:40,859 That wasn't just 2640 01:19:39,066 --> 01:19:40,859 one person's child. 2641 01:19:40,901 --> 01:19:42,361 They belonged to everybody. 2642 01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:56,459 The emotions that we felt and 2643 01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:56,459 still feel to this day 2644 01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:59,253 from what we saw was 2645 01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:59,253 just remarkable. 2646 01:20:01,672 --> 01:20:05,134 And the kids that survived 2647 01:20:01,672 --> 01:20:05,134 and came through that 2648 01:20:05,175 --> 01:20:08,095 was just absolutely incredible. 2649 01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311 JIM DENNY: 2650 01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311 Our children ended up 2651 01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:15,311 at two different hospitals. 2652 01:20:15,352 --> 01:20:17,896 And once we found them, 2653 01:20:17,938 --> 01:20:20,149 we just made up our minds 2654 01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:22,901 that Claudia was gonna be 2655 01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:22,901 with Rebecca 2656 01:20:22,943 --> 01:20:24,570 and I was gonna be with Brandon. 2657 01:20:27,531 --> 01:20:31,661 (unintelligible conversation) 2658 01:20:35,038 --> 01:20:37,667 When I got there, 2659 01:20:35,038 --> 01:20:37,667 Brandon had just had 2660 01:20:37,708 --> 01:20:40,252 a four-and-a-half-hour 2661 01:20:37,708 --> 01:20:40,252 brain surgery. 2662 01:20:40,294 --> 01:20:42,004 How's Daddy's 2663 01:20:40,294 --> 01:20:42,004 big boy, huh? 2664 01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174 DENNY: 2665 01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174 He had a piece of something 2666 01:20:42,045 --> 01:20:45,174 blown into the upper left side 2667 01:20:45,215 --> 01:20:48,135 of his head 2668 01:20:45,215 --> 01:20:48,135 that went into his brain. 2669 01:20:50,387 --> 01:20:54,891 Dr. Reynolds, his neurosurgeon, 2670 01:20:50,387 --> 01:20:54,891 could not tell us 2671 01:20:54,933 --> 01:20:56,226 whether he'd live or not. 2672 01:20:59,855 --> 01:21:01,440 We knew for an absolute fact 2673 01:21:01,482 --> 01:21:05,152 that our children 2674 01:21:01,482 --> 01:21:05,152 were 50 feet from it. 2675 01:21:05,194 --> 01:21:07,738 50 feet from a massive bomb. 2676 01:21:10,073 --> 01:21:12,117 There was five children 2677 01:21:10,073 --> 01:21:12,117 sitting at a table 2678 01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:15,871 in the daycare center, 2679 01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:15,871 and one in the bathroom. 2680 01:21:15,912 --> 01:21:17,623 And those six survived. 2681 01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337 CLAUDIA DENNY: 2682 01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337 When I saw Rebecca 2683 01:21:20,334 --> 01:21:23,337 for the first time, 2684 01:21:23,379 --> 01:21:26,923 the doctor said, 2685 01:21:23,379 --> 01:21:26,923 "She's going to be fine." 2686 01:21:26,965 --> 01:21:29,677 She has a lot of cuts, bruises, 2687 01:21:29,719 --> 01:21:32,847 and she has a broken 2688 01:21:29,719 --> 01:21:32,847 collarbone. 2689 01:21:32,888 --> 01:21:34,890 But she was alive. 2690 01:21:37,434 --> 01:21:42,231 At 9:02 that day, 2691 01:21:37,434 --> 01:21:42,231 our world ended. 2692 01:21:42,272 --> 01:21:44,734 And then when we found our kids, 2693 01:21:44,775 --> 01:21:51,281 our new world began at 4:00 2694 01:21:44,775 --> 01:21:51,281 on April 19. 2695 01:21:51,323 --> 01:21:53,743 I love you, baby. 2696 01:22:04,420 --> 01:22:05,796 How you doing today, sir? 2697 01:22:05,838 --> 01:22:06,963 We're currently conducting 2698 01:22:05,838 --> 01:22:06,963 an investigation 2699 01:22:07,005 --> 01:22:08,257 into the Oklahoma City 2700 01:22:07,005 --> 01:22:08,257 bombing. 2701 01:22:08,298 --> 01:22:10,509 Do you usually travel 2702 01:22:08,298 --> 01:22:10,509 this road very much? 2703 01:22:10,551 --> 01:22:12,428 RICKS: 2704 01:22:10,551 --> 01:22:12,428 We operate under the premise 2705 01:22:12,469 --> 01:22:15,972 that the evidence leads you 2706 01:22:12,469 --> 01:22:15,972 to where you want to go. 2707 01:22:16,014 --> 01:22:20,477 We have to gather every bit 2708 01:22:16,014 --> 01:22:20,477 of evidence that we can 2709 01:22:20,519 --> 01:22:24,523 and then start trying to form 2710 01:22:20,519 --> 01:22:24,523 hypotheses and theories 2711 01:22:24,565 --> 01:22:27,025 as to what has transpired. 2712 01:22:27,067 --> 01:22:29,111 Did you notice 2713 01:22:27,067 --> 01:22:29,111 a Ryder truck? 2714 01:22:29,152 --> 01:22:31,781 The first real break 2715 01:22:29,152 --> 01:22:31,781 of the investigation, 2716 01:22:31,822 --> 01:22:33,866 which happened within hours 2717 01:22:31,822 --> 01:22:33,866 of the bombing, 2718 01:22:33,908 --> 01:22:35,701 was we found the rear axle 2719 01:22:35,743 --> 01:22:38,995 of what turned out 2720 01:22:35,743 --> 01:22:38,995 to be the bomb truck. 2721 01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540 HERSLEY: 2722 01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540 On the rear axle assembly, 2723 01:22:39,037 --> 01:22:41,540 there's what's called 2724 01:22:41,582 --> 01:22:44,126 a confidential vehicle 2725 01:22:41,582 --> 01:22:44,126 identification number, 2726 01:22:44,167 --> 01:22:47,003 which was PVA26077. 2727 01:22:47,045 --> 01:22:48,505 I'll never forget that number. 2728 01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929 TONGATE: 2729 01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929 We were able to trace that 2730 01:22:50,591 --> 01:22:54,929 number to a Ryder truck 2731 01:22:54,970 --> 01:23:00,016 assigned to Elliott's Body Shop 2732 01:22:54,970 --> 01:23:00,016 in Junction City, Kansas. 2733 01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978 RICKS: 2734 01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978 We immediately deployed 2735 01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,978 special agents 2736 01:23:03,019 --> 01:23:05,397 to that Ryder truck rental shop. 2737 01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:08,400 We learned that it had been 2738 01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:08,400 rented by a gentleman 2739 01:23:08,442 --> 01:23:11,111 with a South Dakota driver's 2740 01:23:08,442 --> 01:23:11,111 license 2741 01:23:11,153 --> 01:23:14,907 by the name of Robert Kling. 2742 01:23:14,949 --> 01:23:19,745 We had three principal witnesses 2743 01:23:14,949 --> 01:23:19,745 there inside the truck rental. 2744 01:23:19,787 --> 01:23:24,917 They described a military type 2745 01:23:19,787 --> 01:23:24,917 person, about six foot tall, 2746 01:23:24,959 --> 01:23:28,587 thin, close shaven. 2747 01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:32,549 They also believed that there 2748 01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:32,549 was a second person with him, 2749 01:23:32,591 --> 01:23:34,844 so we called these John Doe 2750 01:23:32,591 --> 01:23:34,844 number one 2751 01:23:34,885 --> 01:23:36,637 and John Doe number two. 2752 01:23:38,388 --> 01:23:43,310 Our agents flooded the area 2753 01:23:38,388 --> 01:23:43,310 of Junction City. 2754 01:23:45,688 --> 01:23:48,858 One particular agent went 2755 01:23:45,688 --> 01:23:48,858 to the Dreamland Motel, 2756 01:23:48,899 --> 01:23:51,986 and he asked the manager, 2757 01:23:48,899 --> 01:23:51,986 "Has anybody been in here 2758 01:23:52,027 --> 01:23:54,196 with a Ryder truck?" 2759 01:23:54,237 --> 01:23:56,907 TONGATE: 2760 01:23:54,237 --> 01:23:56,907 She said, "Yes. 2761 01:23:56,949 --> 01:24:00,536 "I had a customer who stayed 2762 01:23:56,949 --> 01:24:00,536 here in room 25 2763 01:24:00,577 --> 01:24:03,497 "that had a Ryder truck parked 2764 01:24:00,577 --> 01:24:03,497 at the motel, 2765 01:24:03,539 --> 01:24:09,044 and I last saw him on Tuesday 2766 01:24:03,539 --> 01:24:09,044 morning, April the 18th." 2767 01:24:09,085 --> 01:24:11,922 After talking to her 2768 01:24:09,085 --> 01:24:11,922 about the Ryder truck, 2769 01:24:11,964 --> 01:24:16,301 they show her the sketch, 2770 01:24:11,964 --> 01:24:16,301 and she recognizes it. 2771 01:24:16,343 --> 01:24:18,595 She pulls out her records, 2772 01:24:18,637 --> 01:24:20,848 and for all of McVeigh's 2773 01:24:18,637 --> 01:24:20,848 planning, 2774 01:24:20,890 --> 01:24:24,142 he apparently had a moment 2775 01:24:20,890 --> 01:24:24,142 of weakness 2776 01:24:24,184 --> 01:24:28,731 and he signed his own name 2777 01:24:24,184 --> 01:24:28,731 to the register. 2778 01:24:28,772 --> 01:24:30,190 HERSLEY: 2779 01:24:28,772 --> 01:24:30,190 So that really got us. 2780 01:24:30,232 --> 01:24:32,108 We wanted to know 2781 01:24:30,232 --> 01:24:32,108 who Tim McVeigh was. 2782 01:24:32,150 --> 01:24:33,610 So what we did 2783 01:24:33,652 --> 01:24:36,154 was go into the National Crime 2784 01:24:33,652 --> 01:24:36,154 Information Center 2785 01:24:36,196 --> 01:24:38,281 and run an offline search, 2786 01:24:38,323 --> 01:24:40,409 and try to find out if anybody 2787 01:24:38,323 --> 01:24:40,409 named Tim McVeigh 2788 01:24:40,450 --> 01:24:42,118 has been arrested anywhere 2789 01:24:40,450 --> 01:24:42,118 in the United States 2790 01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:43,328 in the recent past. 2791 01:24:46,206 --> 01:24:49,084 RICKS: It turns out 2792 01:24:46,206 --> 01:24:49,084 that a highway patrolman 2793 01:24:49,125 --> 01:24:53,213 has arrested someone by the name 2794 01:24:49,125 --> 01:24:53,213 of Timothy McVeigh. 2795 01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137 HERBECK: 2796 01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137 He was heading off toward Kansas 2797 01:24:53,255 --> 01:25:01,137 in this old Mercury Marquis. 2798 01:25:01,179 --> 01:25:06,142 He'd got on the interstate, and 2799 01:25:01,179 --> 01:25:06,142 a state trooper pulled him over 2800 01:25:06,184 --> 01:25:11,941 because he had no license plate 2801 01:25:06,184 --> 01:25:11,941 on the back of his car. 2802 01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152 HANCOCK: 2803 01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152 The trooper then notices a bulge 2804 01:25:11,982 --> 01:25:16,152 under the driver's jacket, 2805 01:25:16,194 --> 01:25:19,531 and says, "Is that a gun?" 2806 01:25:19,573 --> 01:25:21,742 The driver acknowledges, 2807 01:25:19,573 --> 01:25:21,742 "Yes, it is," 2808 01:25:21,784 --> 01:25:24,244 and Tim McVeigh 2809 01:25:21,784 --> 01:25:24,244 is put under arrest 2810 01:25:24,286 --> 01:25:27,748 and taken to the county jail. 2811 01:25:30,250 --> 01:25:32,168 MICHEL: 2812 01:25:30,250 --> 01:25:32,168 The T-shirt he is wearing 2813 01:25:32,210 --> 01:25:36,924 says sic semper tyrannis-- 2814 01:25:32,210 --> 01:25:36,924 "thus ever to tyrants." 2815 01:25:36,966 --> 01:25:41,762 It was what John Wilkes Booth 2816 01:25:36,966 --> 01:25:41,762 shouted when he shot Lincoln. 2817 01:25:43,806 --> 01:25:46,934 For two days McVeigh languished 2818 01:25:43,806 --> 01:25:46,934 in the jail 2819 01:25:46,976 --> 01:25:51,021 and nobody really knew 2820 01:25:46,976 --> 01:25:51,021 who he was. 2821 01:25:51,063 --> 01:25:55,400 Other than the fact that he was 2822 01:25:51,063 --> 01:25:55,400 illegally carrying a weapon, 2823 01:25:55,442 --> 01:26:00,530 the police had no suspicions 2824 01:25:55,442 --> 01:26:00,530 about him. 2825 01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158 RICKS: 2826 01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158 We called up the courthouse 2827 01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:03,158 there and learned 2828 01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:06,078 that Timothy McVeigh was just 2829 01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:06,078 getting ready to appear 2830 01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,456 before the judge and was about 2831 01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,456 ready to be released. 2832 01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:11,207 So we said, you know, 2833 01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:11,207 "Put a hold on him. 2834 01:26:11,249 --> 01:26:12,626 We're on our way." 2835 01:26:16,005 --> 01:26:18,548 MICHEL: 2836 01:26:16,005 --> 01:26:18,548 Two federal agents interview him 2837 01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:22,011 in the Noble County 2838 01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:22,011 sheriff's office. 2839 01:26:22,052 --> 01:26:26,140 And the agents start by saying, 2840 01:26:22,052 --> 01:26:26,140 "Do you know why we're here?" 2841 01:26:26,181 --> 01:26:28,767 And McVeigh says, 2842 01:26:28,809 --> 01:26:31,854 "Does it have something to do 2843 01:26:28,809 --> 01:26:31,854 with the bombing?" 2844 01:26:37,151 --> 01:26:40,236 I am pleased to announce 2845 01:26:37,151 --> 01:26:40,236 that one of the individuals 2846 01:26:40,278 --> 01:26:44,116 believed to be responsible for 2847 01:26:40,278 --> 01:26:44,116 Wednesday's terrible attack 2848 01:26:44,158 --> 01:26:46,618 on the Murrah Federal Building 2849 01:26:44,158 --> 01:26:46,618 in Oklahoma City 2850 01:26:46,660 --> 01:26:48,537 has been arrested. 2851 01:26:50,831 --> 01:26:53,291 FENWICK: Once they know 2852 01:26:50,831 --> 01:26:53,291 they've got their guy, 2853 01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:57,796 the decision's made to take 2854 01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:57,796 him to a more secure facility. 2855 01:26:57,838 --> 01:27:00,298 The word is leaked out 2856 01:26:57,838 --> 01:27:00,298 to the press, 2857 01:27:00,340 --> 01:27:03,010 which broadcasts it on TV, 2858 01:27:03,052 --> 01:27:07,514 so people drive there 2859 01:27:03,052 --> 01:27:07,514 from all over to see this. 2860 01:27:10,308 --> 01:27:14,813 (crowd shouting, booing) 2861 01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274 POTOK: 2862 01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274 I and the rest of the country 2863 01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:18,274 saw Timothy McVeigh 2864 01:27:18,316 --> 01:27:20,110 for the very first time. 2865 01:27:20,152 --> 01:27:23,113 And we understood 2866 01:27:20,152 --> 01:27:23,113 in a kind of flash 2867 01:27:23,155 --> 01:27:25,949 that there were enemies 2868 01:27:23,155 --> 01:27:25,949 within this country. 2869 01:27:25,991 --> 01:27:30,453 Not foreign terrorists, 2870 01:27:25,991 --> 01:27:30,453 but red-blooded Americans 2871 01:27:30,495 --> 01:27:34,875 who were engaged in a war 2872 01:27:30,495 --> 01:27:34,875 against America. 2873 01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294 FENWICK: 2874 01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294 It was just the lightning moment 2875 01:27:34,917 --> 01:27:38,294 of recognition. 2876 01:27:38,336 --> 01:27:40,630 This was the guy in the sketch. 2877 01:27:40,672 --> 01:27:43,299 It was that guy. 2878 01:27:43,341 --> 01:27:48,097 I think everybody felt this 2879 01:27:43,341 --> 01:27:48,097 sudden sense of betrayal. 2880 01:27:48,138 --> 01:27:52,308 I think everyone thought, 2881 01:27:48,138 --> 01:27:52,308 "You're one of us." 2882 01:27:52,350 --> 01:27:54,144 REPORTER: 2883 01:27:52,350 --> 01:27:54,144 Mr. President, 2884 01:27:54,186 --> 01:27:58,774 is there a sense now, sir, that 2885 01:27:54,186 --> 01:27:58,774 this was not a foreign threat? 2886 01:27:58,815 --> 01:28:01,276 Let me say that I have never, 2887 01:28:01,317 --> 01:28:03,486 and the Justice Department has 2888 01:28:01,317 --> 01:28:03,486 never said, 2889 01:28:03,528 --> 01:28:05,614 that it was a foreign threat, 2890 01:28:05,655 --> 01:28:09,243 but the most important thing 2891 01:28:05,655 --> 01:28:09,243 that you understand 2892 01:28:09,284 --> 01:28:13,038 is that even though this is 2893 01:28:09,284 --> 01:28:13,038 a positive development, 2894 01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:16,959 this investigation has a lot of 2895 01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:16,959 work still to be done in it. 2896 01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:25,217 RICKS: 2897 01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:25,217 The capture of Timothy McVeigh 2898 01:28:25,259 --> 01:28:28,303 really just launched 2899 01:28:25,259 --> 01:28:28,303 the investigation. 2900 01:28:28,344 --> 01:28:30,346 The circumstances, obviously, 2901 01:28:28,344 --> 01:28:30,346 indicated 2902 01:28:30,388 --> 01:28:34,184 that he was directly involved, 2903 01:28:30,388 --> 01:28:34,184 but, you know, to what extent? 2904 01:28:35,894 --> 01:28:40,482 His driver's license had an 2905 01:28:35,894 --> 01:28:40,482 address in Decker, Michigan. 2906 01:28:40,523 --> 01:28:45,154 We dispatched agents 2907 01:28:40,523 --> 01:28:45,154 to that location 2908 01:28:45,195 --> 01:28:47,990 and we find out 2909 01:28:45,195 --> 01:28:47,990 that the gentleman there 2910 01:28:48,031 --> 01:28:51,994 by the name of James Nichols 2911 01:28:48,031 --> 01:28:51,994 had a brother, Terry, 2912 01:28:52,035 --> 01:28:56,165 presently residing 2913 01:28:52,035 --> 01:28:56,165 in Herington, Kansas. 2914 01:28:56,206 --> 01:29:00,376 We ended up executing a search 2915 01:28:56,206 --> 01:29:00,376 warrant on Terry Nichols' home 2916 01:29:00,418 --> 01:29:05,381 in Kansas, and that search 2917 01:29:00,418 --> 01:29:05,381 warrant was a gold mine. 2918 01:29:05,423 --> 01:29:11,346 In there we found a receipt for 2919 01:29:05,423 --> 01:29:11,346 2,000 pounds of fertilizer. 2920 01:29:11,387 --> 01:29:14,724 We found a cordless drill 2921 01:29:11,387 --> 01:29:14,724 that turned out to be 2922 01:29:14,766 --> 01:29:17,393 a key piece of evidence. 2923 01:29:17,435 --> 01:29:21,106 But probably the most important 2924 01:29:17,435 --> 01:29:21,106 piece of evidence 2925 01:29:21,148 --> 01:29:25,152 that we found was a calling card 2926 01:29:21,148 --> 01:29:25,152 in the name of Daryl Bridges, 2927 01:29:25,194 --> 01:29:29,948 who shared the same 2928 01:29:25,194 --> 01:29:29,948 address in Decker, Michigan. 2929 01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287 HERSLEY: 2930 01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287 There were 685 calls 2931 01:29:31,950 --> 01:29:35,287 made on the calling card. 2932 01:29:35,329 --> 01:29:38,790 We determined where every one of 2933 01:29:35,329 --> 01:29:38,790 those calls was placed from, 2934 01:29:38,832 --> 01:29:41,417 the duration of the call, 2935 01:29:38,832 --> 01:29:41,417 and who the call was made to. 2936 01:29:41,459 --> 01:29:46,631 So we saw many calls to chemical 2937 01:29:41,459 --> 01:29:46,631 companies, to barrel companies, 2938 01:29:46,673 --> 01:29:49,801 to racetracks, 2939 01:29:46,673 --> 01:29:49,801 all kinds of places 2940 01:29:49,843 --> 01:29:52,762 Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols 2941 01:29:49,843 --> 01:29:52,762 were contacting 2942 01:29:52,804 --> 01:29:56,725 to try to acquire 2943 01:29:52,804 --> 01:29:56,725 bomb components. 2944 01:29:56,766 --> 01:29:59,435 We also found out about 2945 01:29:56,766 --> 01:29:59,435 Michael Fortier 2946 01:29:59,477 --> 01:30:01,021 through the calling card. 2947 01:30:03,273 --> 01:30:05,734 He knew more than we did 2948 01:30:03,273 --> 01:30:05,734 about the bombing. 2949 01:30:05,775 --> 01:30:08,444 He knew, for example, 2950 01:30:05,775 --> 01:30:08,444 that Tim McVeigh, 2951 01:30:08,486 --> 01:30:10,322 when he was staying at their 2952 01:30:08,486 --> 01:30:10,322 house in Kingman, 2953 01:30:10,364 --> 01:30:12,532 had taken all these soup cans 2954 01:30:10,364 --> 01:30:12,532 down from the kitchen 2955 01:30:12,574 --> 01:30:16,119 and showed Michael Fortier's 2956 01:30:12,574 --> 01:30:16,119 wife exactly how he was going 2957 01:30:16,161 --> 01:30:20,999 to construct the bomb inside 2958 01:30:16,161 --> 01:30:20,999 the back of that Ryder truck. 2959 01:30:21,041 --> 01:30:25,712 Last night, Timothy McVeigh 2960 01:30:21,041 --> 01:30:25,712 was charged in the bombing 2961 01:30:25,754 --> 01:30:28,506 of the Murrah Federal Building 2962 01:30:25,754 --> 01:30:28,506 here in Oklahoma City. 2963 01:30:28,548 --> 01:30:33,887 Two brothers, James Douglas 2964 01:30:28,548 --> 01:30:33,887 Nichols and Terry Lynn Nichols, 2965 01:30:33,929 --> 01:30:36,014 are currently in federal custody 2966 01:30:36,056 --> 01:30:38,850 and are being held 2967 01:30:36,056 --> 01:30:38,850 as material witnesses. 2968 01:30:38,892 --> 01:30:41,435 Another suspect, 2969 01:30:38,892 --> 01:30:41,435 whom we have identified 2970 01:30:41,477 --> 01:30:47,109 as John Doe number two, remains 2971 01:30:41,477 --> 01:30:47,109 unidentified and at large. 2972 01:30:47,150 --> 01:30:49,361 RICKS: 2973 01:30:47,150 --> 01:30:49,361 A mistake was made. 2974 01:30:49,403 --> 01:30:53,656 The artist conception has him 2975 01:30:49,403 --> 01:30:53,656 with a Carolina Panthers cap on. 2976 01:30:53,698 --> 01:30:57,035 It turns out that a guy had 2977 01:30:53,698 --> 01:30:57,035 happened to be 2978 01:30:57,077 --> 01:30:59,495 in the Ryder truck rental shop 2979 01:30:59,537 --> 01:31:02,082 the day before 2980 01:30:59,537 --> 01:31:02,082 Timothy McVeigh was. 2981 01:31:02,124 --> 01:31:06,544 His description is almost 2982 01:31:02,124 --> 01:31:06,544 to a T. 2983 01:31:06,586 --> 01:31:08,630 MCVEIGH: 2984 01:31:06,586 --> 01:31:08,630 Is there a John Doe two? 2985 01:31:08,671 --> 01:31:11,049 Either way I can answer it 2986 01:31:08,671 --> 01:31:11,049 should be scary 2987 01:31:11,091 --> 01:31:14,219 because, number one, 2988 01:31:11,091 --> 01:31:14,219 if there are other people, 2989 01:31:14,261 --> 01:31:16,430 that means they're still 2990 01:31:14,261 --> 01:31:16,430 out there. 2991 01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:19,891 On the other hand, if it was 2992 01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:19,891 just me, that in itself, 2993 01:31:19,933 --> 01:31:22,602 isn't that pretty scary 2994 01:31:19,933 --> 01:31:22,602 that one man could do that? 2995 01:31:22,644 --> 01:31:28,524 That's why "You can't handle the 2996 01:31:22,644 --> 01:31:28,524 truth" is the perfect line, 2997 01:31:28,566 --> 01:31:31,945 because the truth is 2998 01:31:28,566 --> 01:31:31,945 it was just me. 2999 01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538 FENWICK: 3000 01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538 The prosecution hit 3001 01:31:40,162 --> 01:31:42,538 McVeigh's defense team 3002 01:31:42,580 --> 01:31:44,916 with everything they had. 3003 01:31:44,958 --> 01:31:49,963 Michael Fortier's testimony 3004 01:31:44,958 --> 01:31:49,963 was crucial and damning, 3005 01:31:50,005 --> 01:31:54,384 but he also told 3006 01:31:50,005 --> 01:31:54,384 a very poignant story. 3007 01:31:54,426 --> 01:31:57,137 He talked about how he would 3008 01:31:54,426 --> 01:31:57,137 have a dream at night 3009 01:31:57,179 --> 01:32:00,098 that he was calling people 3010 01:31:57,179 --> 01:32:00,098 to warn them, 3011 01:32:00,140 --> 01:32:03,768 and then he'd wake up, 3012 01:32:00,140 --> 01:32:03,768 and he was in jail, 3013 01:32:03,810 --> 01:32:05,687 and he hadn't made the call, 3014 01:32:05,728 --> 01:32:09,523 and that people were dead 3015 01:32:05,728 --> 01:32:09,523 because of him. 3016 01:32:12,652 --> 01:32:16,572 I was the second witness 3017 01:32:12,652 --> 01:32:16,572 in the trial, 3018 01:32:16,614 --> 01:32:19,575 and as I sat in 3019 01:32:16,614 --> 01:32:19,575 that witness stand, 3020 01:32:19,617 --> 01:32:25,581 it seemed just like an arm's 3021 01:32:19,617 --> 01:32:25,581 reach away was Timothy McVeigh. 3022 01:32:25,623 --> 01:32:29,627 He did look me in the eyes, 3023 01:32:25,623 --> 01:32:29,627 and he did try to intimidate me, 3024 01:32:29,669 --> 01:32:32,588 but I was far 3025 01:32:29,669 --> 01:32:32,588 from being intimidated. 3026 01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261 GARRETT: 3027 01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261 When I had to testify, 3028 01:32:32,630 --> 01:32:38,261 and people would ask later, 3029 01:32:38,303 --> 01:32:40,596 "How did you sit in 3030 01:32:38,303 --> 01:32:40,596 the room with the man 3031 01:32:40,638 --> 01:32:42,140 who murdered your son?" 3032 01:32:42,182 --> 01:32:45,601 And I told them my story 3033 01:32:42,182 --> 01:32:45,601 is more powerful 3034 01:32:45,643 --> 01:32:46,978 than me yelling at him. 3035 01:32:47,020 --> 01:32:52,234 My story is more powerful 3036 01:32:47,020 --> 01:32:52,234 than my fist. 3037 01:32:52,275 --> 01:32:54,861 I'm not going to go 3038 01:32:52,275 --> 01:32:54,861 to his level. 3039 01:32:54,903 --> 01:32:57,906 You know, I deserve better; 3040 01:32:54,903 --> 01:32:57,906 Tevin deserved better. 3041 01:32:57,947 --> 01:33:02,576 Every victim of the bombing 3042 01:32:57,947 --> 01:33:02,576 deserved better than that. 3043 01:33:16,799 --> 01:33:20,345 McVeigh all along wanted 3044 01:33:16,799 --> 01:33:20,345 a necessity defense, 3045 01:33:20,387 --> 01:33:23,056 that he had no choice 3046 01:33:20,387 --> 01:33:23,056 but to bomb to building. 3047 01:33:23,098 --> 01:33:28,311 He did not want to claim 3048 01:33:23,098 --> 01:33:28,311 some widespread conspiracy, 3049 01:33:28,353 --> 01:33:32,857 which members of 3050 01:33:28,353 --> 01:33:32,857 the defense team wanted. 3051 01:33:32,899 --> 01:33:34,901 McVeigh wanted no part of that 3052 01:33:34,943 --> 01:33:37,653 because, number one, 3053 01:33:34,943 --> 01:33:37,653 it wasn't true 3054 01:33:37,695 --> 01:33:40,031 and, number two, 3055 01:33:40,073 --> 01:33:43,659 he did want credit 3056 01:33:40,073 --> 01:33:43,659 for this thing he had done. 3057 01:33:43,701 --> 01:33:49,416 And no evidence has ever 3058 01:33:43,701 --> 01:33:49,416 surfaced that anybody but him, 3059 01:33:49,458 --> 01:33:54,296 with-with a little bit of help 3060 01:33:49,458 --> 01:33:54,296 from his two Army buddies, 3061 01:33:54,337 --> 01:33:56,672 pulled this off. 3062 01:33:56,714 --> 01:33:58,341 He built this bomb. 3063 01:33:58,383 --> 01:34:03,888 He designed it, he built it, 3064 01:33:58,383 --> 01:34:03,888 and he was proud of that. 3065 01:34:03,930 --> 01:34:07,517 ZESKIND: 3066 01:34:03,930 --> 01:34:07,517 There was no massive conspiracy. 3067 01:34:07,559 --> 01:34:10,479 That much is clear. 3068 01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:15,567 But the idea that Timothy 3069 01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:15,567 McVeigh was a lone killer 3070 01:34:15,609 --> 01:34:19,279 is wrong-headed because it 3071 01:34:15,609 --> 01:34:19,279 absolves the movement 3072 01:34:19,321 --> 01:34:21,364 from which it all sprang. 3073 01:34:21,406 --> 01:34:25,701 Timothy McVeigh 3074 01:34:21,406 --> 01:34:25,701 was not on his own. 3075 01:34:25,743 --> 01:34:29,998 He was a creation of the 3076 01:34:25,743 --> 01:34:29,998 white supremacist movement. 3077 01:34:30,039 --> 01:34:33,042 He carried The Turner Diaries 3078 01:34:30,039 --> 01:34:33,042 around 3079 01:34:33,084 --> 01:34:34,710 and read it to people. 3080 01:34:34,752 --> 01:34:38,173 He lived at the gun shows. 3081 01:34:38,214 --> 01:34:42,260 He met Neo-Nazis 3082 01:34:38,214 --> 01:34:42,260 and visited with them. 3083 01:34:42,302 --> 01:34:45,305 He was part of this movement. 3084 01:34:45,347 --> 01:34:48,266 And the idea that 3085 01:34:45,347 --> 01:34:48,266 there was no connection 3086 01:34:48,308 --> 01:34:50,393 between the white supremacist 3087 01:34:48,308 --> 01:34:50,393 movement 3088 01:34:50,435 --> 01:34:54,564 and the events in Oklahoma City 3089 01:34:50,435 --> 01:34:54,564 is patently false. 3090 01:34:54,606 --> 01:34:59,735 There was a strong connection, 3091 01:34:54,606 --> 01:34:59,735 and it was a deep connection. 3092 01:35:02,405 --> 01:35:03,990 WRIGHT: 3093 01:35:02,405 --> 01:35:03,990 When the verdict was read, 3094 01:35:04,032 --> 01:35:05,992 McVeigh's demeanor 3095 01:35:04,032 --> 01:35:05,992 didn't change at all. 3096 01:35:06,034 --> 01:35:07,536 He didn't even blink. 3097 01:35:07,577 --> 01:35:11,956 I think he fully expected 3098 01:35:07,577 --> 01:35:11,956 to get the verdict 3099 01:35:11,998 --> 01:35:14,750 and he fully expected 3100 01:35:11,998 --> 01:35:14,750 to get the death penalty, 3101 01:35:14,792 --> 01:35:17,128 and he expected to die 3102 01:35:17,170 --> 01:35:20,048 because I think he 3103 01:35:17,170 --> 01:35:20,048 wanted to be a martyr. 3104 01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889 FENWICK: 3105 01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889 He thought he was starting 3106 01:35:24,052 --> 01:35:27,889 the next American Revolution. 3107 01:35:27,930 --> 01:35:31,393 I think he did 3108 01:35:27,930 --> 01:35:31,393 exactly the opposite, 3109 01:35:31,434 --> 01:35:35,605 because he showed the human face 3110 01:35:35,647 --> 01:35:40,818 of what it really 3111 01:35:35,647 --> 01:35:40,818 means to attack a government, 3112 01:35:40,860 --> 01:35:42,654 a government of the people. 3113 01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:48,117 SCHWAB: 3114 01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:48,117 We were the government. 3115 01:35:48,159 --> 01:35:50,078 We weren't bad guys. 3116 01:35:50,119 --> 01:35:58,169 We were mothers and fathers 3117 01:35:50,119 --> 01:35:58,169 and daughters and sons 3118 01:35:58,211 --> 01:36:02,549 and grandparents 3119 01:35:58,211 --> 01:36:02,549 who had a job to do. 3120 01:36:04,884 --> 01:36:08,430 Supposedly you don't have 3121 01:36:04,884 --> 01:36:08,430 job satisfaction 3122 01:36:08,471 --> 01:36:10,557 if you work for the government. 3123 01:36:10,599 --> 01:36:14,561 I never heard that type of talk 3124 01:36:10,599 --> 01:36:14,561 in our office. 3125 01:36:14,603 --> 01:36:16,770 We were very proud 3126 01:36:14,603 --> 01:36:16,770 of what we did. 3127 01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:31,160 MCVEIGH: 3128 01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:31,160 Death penalty is... 3129 01:36:31,202 --> 01:36:33,580 would you call it an oxymoron? 3130 01:36:33,622 --> 01:36:37,833 Death is not a penalty, 3131 01:36:33,622 --> 01:36:37,833 it's an escape. 3132 01:36:37,875 --> 01:36:39,628 They treat me like a trophy, 3133 01:36:39,669 --> 01:36:42,505 like they've got me, they're 3134 01:36:39,669 --> 01:36:42,505 gonna kill me, "We've won." 3135 01:36:42,547 --> 01:36:45,091 They didn't win. 3136 01:36:45,133 --> 01:36:49,429 In the crudest terms: 168-1. 3137 01:37:04,402 --> 01:37:07,572 NORFLEET: 3138 01:37:04,402 --> 01:37:07,572 He died without a word. 3139 01:37:07,614 --> 01:37:09,865 There was no pain. 3140 01:37:09,907 --> 01:37:12,327 There was no regret. 3141 01:37:12,368 --> 01:37:14,329 Because I looked into his eyes 3142 01:37:14,370 --> 01:37:16,872 before they were closed 3143 01:37:14,370 --> 01:37:16,872 that last time, 3144 01:37:16,914 --> 01:37:21,877 and saw the same deep anger 3145 01:37:16,914 --> 01:37:21,877 and resentment and rage 3146 01:37:21,919 --> 01:37:27,133 that I had seen in that trial 3147 01:37:21,919 --> 01:37:27,133 several years before. 3148 01:37:30,928 --> 01:37:33,222 FLOWERS: 3149 01:37:30,928 --> 01:37:33,222 Justice was served. 3150 01:37:33,264 --> 01:37:35,266 That don't bring them back. 3151 01:37:35,308 --> 01:37:37,435 It just won't bring them back. 3152 01:37:37,477 --> 01:37:40,396 But it closes a door 3153 01:37:37,477 --> 01:37:40,396 on that chapter, 3154 01:37:40,438 --> 01:37:41,897 and that's exactly 3155 01:37:40,438 --> 01:37:41,897 what happened 3156 01:37:41,939 --> 01:37:45,735 when they lowered the boom 3157 01:37:41,939 --> 01:37:45,735 down on Timothy McVeigh. 3158 01:37:51,157 --> 01:37:53,576 JIM DENNY: 3159 01:37:51,157 --> 01:37:53,576 We didn't go to the execution. 3160 01:37:53,618 --> 01:37:56,663 We had no time to worry 3161 01:37:53,618 --> 01:37:56,663 about that. 3162 01:37:58,832 --> 01:38:02,918 Our total focus, regardless 3163 01:37:58,832 --> 01:38:02,918 of whatever it took, 3164 01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:04,170 was our children. 3165 01:38:04,212 --> 01:38:06,880 Our children and our family. 3166 01:38:08,966 --> 01:38:11,803 CLAUDIA DENNY: 3167 01:38:08,966 --> 01:38:11,803 We were very blessed. 3168 01:38:11,845 --> 01:38:14,930 But it's been hard for us. 3169 01:38:14,972 --> 01:38:19,060 I mean to watch Brandon 3170 01:38:14,972 --> 01:38:19,060 struggle, as he's struggled, 3171 01:38:19,101 --> 01:38:21,354 for the last 20 years. 3172 01:38:21,396 --> 01:38:25,817 Faith, family, and friends-- 3173 01:38:25,859 --> 01:38:30,154 that's how we survived 3174 01:38:25,859 --> 01:38:30,154 through all of this. 3175 01:38:30,196 --> 01:38:33,783 But also it makes me 3176 01:38:30,196 --> 01:38:33,783 wonder why a little bit. 3177 01:38:33,825 --> 01:38:35,951 I mean, I don't question 3178 01:38:33,825 --> 01:38:35,951 it all the time, 3179 01:38:35,993 --> 01:38:38,830 but sometimes I question why. 3180 01:38:38,872 --> 01:38:43,626 And I do have a little bit 3181 01:38:38,872 --> 01:38:43,626 of the survivor guilt 3182 01:38:43,668 --> 01:38:47,921 that my children survived 3183 01:38:43,668 --> 01:38:47,921 and some of the others didn't. 3184 01:38:47,963 --> 01:38:50,884 (siren wailing) 3185 01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769 GARRETT: 3186 01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769 I still have hope that no one 3187 01:38:53,887 --> 01:39:00,769 ever again becomes so enraged 3188 01:39:00,810 --> 01:39:05,440 with hatred and prejudice 3189 01:39:00,810 --> 01:39:05,440 and judgment 3190 01:39:05,481 --> 01:39:11,987 that they think the only thing 3191 01:39:05,481 --> 01:39:11,987 to do is to kill 3192 01:39:12,029 --> 01:39:14,990 and harm other people. 3193 01:39:15,032 --> 01:39:20,872 I have hope that through 3194 01:39:15,032 --> 01:39:20,872 all of this 3195 01:39:20,914 --> 01:39:26,461 that love is stronger 3196 01:39:20,914 --> 01:39:26,461 than any terrorist attack. 3197 01:39:29,046 --> 01:39:32,258 I have hope that that would 3198 01:39:29,046 --> 01:39:32,258 never happen again. 3199 01:40:27,062 --> 01:40:29,022 ♪ ♪ 3200 01:41:49,729 --> 01:41:51,480 ♪ ♪ 184907

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