Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:00,959 --> 00:00:03,961
(camera shutter clicking)
2
00:00:03,962 --> 00:00:06,423
(cat meowing)
3
00:00:07,633 --> 00:00:10,093
(soft whirring)
4
00:00:12,346 --> 00:00:13,471
Good morning, guys.
5
00:00:13,472 --> 00:00:16,182
Good morning.
6
00:00:16,183 --> 00:00:18,434
Have you heard of Batman?
7
00:00:18,435 --> 00:00:19,353
Yes.
8
00:00:19,354 --> 00:00:21,145
Just checking and just kidding.
9
00:00:21,146 --> 00:00:22,897
Of course you've
heard of Batman.
10
00:00:22,898 --> 00:00:24,357
So I have had the honor
11
00:00:24,358 --> 00:00:26,734
of getting invited to
speak all over the world
12
00:00:26,735 --> 00:00:29,278
to tell the story that
you're about to hear.
13
00:00:29,279 --> 00:00:30,239
And everywhere I go,
14
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,198
whether it's Tanzania in Africa
15
00:00:32,199 --> 00:00:33,824
or Chile in South America
16
00:00:33,825 --> 00:00:35,493
or Hong Kong or Thailand
17
00:00:35,494 --> 00:00:37,161
or the United Arab Emirates,
18
00:00:37,162 --> 00:00:39,539
everywhere I go,
I show that symbol,
19
00:00:39,540 --> 00:00:40,873
and I have not been to a school
20
00:00:40,874 --> 00:00:44,335
anywhere in the world where
someone doesn't know it.
21
00:00:44,336 --> 00:00:46,879
Now don't worry if you're
not interested in superheroes
22
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,090
because I've done
this many times,
23
00:00:49,091 --> 00:00:52,134
and I can guarantee everyone
here, including staff,
24
00:00:52,135 --> 00:00:54,845
that you will walk out
of this room in an hour
25
00:00:54,846 --> 00:00:56,305
with a different perspective
26
00:00:56,306 --> 00:00:59,183
than you have right now,
I guarantee it.
27
00:00:59,184 --> 00:01:03,604
On every Batman story
since the first in 1939,
28
00:01:03,605 --> 00:01:06,399
there was only one name
in the credit line.
29
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,819
"Batman created by Bob Kane."
30
00:01:09,820 --> 00:01:11,946
Here he is.
31
00:01:11,947 --> 00:01:16,867
And here's the thing
about that credit line:
32
00:01:16,868 --> 00:01:20,830
It is not true.
33
00:01:20,831 --> 00:01:28,831
♪
34
00:01:41,393 --> 00:01:42,560
The reason I do explain why
35
00:01:42,561 --> 00:01:44,228
that I like superheroes
is a little bit pat,
36
00:01:44,229 --> 00:01:46,063
and it maybe is a
little bit disingenuous
37
00:01:46,064 --> 00:01:48,649
because I wasn't thinking
like this as a kid.
38
00:01:48,650 --> 00:01:52,611
♪
39
00:01:52,612 --> 00:01:54,739
But I do like stories
of selflessness
40
00:01:54,740 --> 00:01:56,741
and I like stories of sacrifice,
41
00:01:56,742 --> 00:02:01,746
and superheroes sacrifice
something on a daily basis.
42
00:02:01,747 --> 00:02:06,917
♪
43
00:02:06,918 --> 00:02:08,419
Superheroes are not doing this
44
00:02:08,420 --> 00:02:11,339
to get paid or praised,
and it is not about them.
45
00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:13,549
They are doing something
for the greater good,
46
00:02:13,550 --> 00:02:15,843
then they disappear
into the night.
47
00:02:15,844 --> 00:02:18,179
♪
48
00:02:18,180 --> 00:02:21,891
The notion of that is
so rare in real life.
49
00:02:21,892 --> 00:02:23,351
I mean, we know so few people
50
00:02:23,352 --> 00:02:26,020
that can afford to be selfless.
51
00:02:26,021 --> 00:02:29,523
♪
52
00:02:29,524 --> 00:02:31,651
As a six-year-old,
I wasn't thinking like that,
53
00:02:31,652 --> 00:02:34,111
even as a 12- or 15-year-old.
54
00:02:34,112 --> 00:02:35,279
I just liked a good story,
55
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:36,572
a good adventure,
and I still do,
56
00:02:36,573 --> 00:02:38,824
so it was a combination
of those things,
57
00:02:38,825 --> 00:02:40,660
this purity of purpose
58
00:02:40,661 --> 00:02:43,704
and then just a
great cliff-hanging,
59
00:02:43,705 --> 00:02:45,956
rollicking adventure.
60
00:02:45,957 --> 00:02:53,957
♪
61
00:03:10,524 --> 00:03:12,942
Here is the Batman section.
62
00:03:12,943 --> 00:03:17,196
One, two, three, four
full... almost full shelves.
63
00:03:17,197 --> 00:03:20,325
And compare that to Superman.
64
00:03:21,827 --> 00:03:22,952
Not knocking Superman,
65
00:03:22,953 --> 00:03:25,246
but just looking at the reality.
66
00:03:25,247 --> 00:03:27,915
Here's Superman
up to about there.
67
00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:31,335
Batman is not only
the most identifiable
68
00:03:31,336 --> 00:03:32,920
and recognizable and famous
69
00:03:32,921 --> 00:03:34,004
and beloved superhero,
70
00:03:34,005 --> 00:03:36,465
but he is one of
the most recognizable
71
00:03:36,466 --> 00:03:38,175
fictional characters
of all time.
72
00:03:38,176 --> 00:03:40,719
Can take almost any
Batman book off the shelf
73
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,682
and open to the title page.
74
00:03:44,683 --> 00:03:46,892
"Batman created by Bob Kane."
75
00:03:46,893 --> 00:03:50,938
♪
76
00:03:50,939 --> 00:03:53,983
Bob, for the few people who
come from another planet,
77
00:03:53,984 --> 00:03:55,860
who may not know what you do,
78
00:03:55,861 --> 00:03:58,154
what is it that
you're known for?
79
00:03:58,155 --> 00:03:59,280
You've got to be kidding.
80
00:03:59,281 --> 00:04:00,865
I am, of course.
81
00:04:00,866 --> 00:04:04,034
Bob Kane is the original
cartoonist of Batman
82
00:04:04,035 --> 00:04:06,370
and the man who has
been credited on Batman
83
00:04:06,371 --> 00:04:08,164
for most of Batman's history.
84
00:04:08,165 --> 00:04:09,832
When I was 18, I tripped across
85
00:04:09,833 --> 00:04:11,250
a character called Batman.
86
00:04:11,251 --> 00:04:12,543
Bat... how do you
pronounce that?
87
00:04:12,544 --> 00:04:15,212
- Batman?
- B-A-T-man.
88
00:04:15,213 --> 00:04:17,631
It was called
"Batman by Robert Kane."
89
00:04:17,632 --> 00:04:21,594
In 1938, two gangly kids
90
00:04:21,595 --> 00:04:23,053
from Cleveland, Ohio
91
00:04:23,054 --> 00:04:26,307
sold an idea for a
character named Superman.
92
00:04:26,308 --> 00:04:28,893
Superman was a huge
influence on Bob Kane,
93
00:04:28,894 --> 00:04:32,062
not the creative side,
the financial side.
94
00:04:32,063 --> 00:04:33,898
So I thought of, yeah,
95
00:04:33,899 --> 00:04:35,816
"How much money is
Siegel and Shuster making?"
96
00:04:35,817 --> 00:04:38,027
They were the
creators of Superman.
97
00:04:38,028 --> 00:04:39,445
And in those days, in '39,
98
00:04:39,446 --> 00:04:42,239
they were making
$800 apiece a week.
99
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,867
When Bob Kane found
out how much money
100
00:04:44,868 --> 00:04:47,661
the Superman creators were
making on a weekly basis
101
00:04:47,662 --> 00:04:49,580
which was $800 at the time,
102
00:04:49,581 --> 00:04:51,290
he went to an
editor at National.
103
00:04:51,291 --> 00:04:54,919
He said, "Listen, Bob, can
you do another superhero?"
104
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,086
I said, "For that kind of money,
105
00:04:56,087 --> 00:04:57,254
you'll have it on Monday."
106
00:04:57,255 --> 00:04:58,964
For that kind of money,
you'd be the superhero.
107
00:04:58,965 --> 00:05:00,049
Boy, you better believe it.
108
00:05:00,050 --> 00:05:02,927
I'll steal it somewhere.
109
00:05:02,928 --> 00:05:04,804
And I went home,
and lo and behold
110
00:05:04,805 --> 00:05:07,014
I thought about all
my childhood heroes
111
00:05:07,015 --> 00:05:10,142
when I was a kid and
my world of fantasy.
112
00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:11,435
And on Monday, I came up with
113
00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:14,271
a very crude drawing of Batman.
114
00:05:14,272 --> 00:05:16,315
And the rest is
history that Batman...
115
00:05:16,316 --> 00:05:19,401
Batman is my claim to infamy.
116
00:05:19,402 --> 00:05:25,783
♪
117
00:05:25,784 --> 00:05:27,785
Well, like most adults
that like superheroes,
118
00:05:27,786 --> 00:05:29,578
my interest started
when I was a kid.
119
00:05:29,579 --> 00:05:31,121
I just never outgrew it.
120
00:05:31,122 --> 00:05:35,125
And that began a passion
that I had most of my life.
121
00:05:35,126 --> 00:05:36,377
I had a little
gap in adolescence
122
00:05:36,378 --> 00:05:39,046
when I had to distance
myself from things
123
00:05:39,047 --> 00:05:42,341
that could get in the
way of girls and life,
124
00:05:42,342 --> 00:05:43,843
but for the most
part, I've stuck
125
00:05:43,844 --> 00:05:46,512
with superheroes my whole life.
126
00:05:46,513 --> 00:05:49,098
I am an author of
books for young people,
127
00:05:49,099 --> 00:05:51,225
and some of them are
books for all ages.
128
00:05:51,226 --> 00:05:53,143
And I've written about 75 books.
129
00:05:53,144 --> 00:05:55,813
This is my first-ever book.
130
00:05:55,814 --> 00:05:57,690
The Felix Activity Book.
131
00:05:57,691 --> 00:06:01,151
Tour de force, I'm sure you
remember it well from 1996.
132
00:06:01,152 --> 00:06:03,279
And then here's the epic sequel,
133
00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:04,905
Felix Explores our World.
134
00:06:04,906 --> 00:06:07,241
I think the recurring
theme of my nonfiction
135
00:06:07,242 --> 00:06:09,493
is untold stories.
136
00:06:09,494 --> 00:06:10,703
Boys of Steel.
137
00:06:10,704 --> 00:06:13,455
Biography of Jerry
Siegel and Joe Shuster,
138
00:06:13,456 --> 00:06:15,165
creators of Superman.
139
00:06:15,166 --> 00:06:17,126
There are sometimes
tragic stories
140
00:06:17,127 --> 00:06:19,336
behind these iconic characters.
141
00:06:19,337 --> 00:06:24,008
Marc loves to bring out
the story behind a story,
142
00:06:24,009 --> 00:06:25,843
so he goes deep,
143
00:06:25,844 --> 00:06:27,887
and he's also very
persistent also
144
00:06:27,888 --> 00:06:29,555
as a human being.
145
00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:31,056
You got two toothpastes
because you didn't know
146
00:06:31,057 --> 00:06:32,683
if I wanted fluoride or not?
147
00:06:32,684 --> 00:06:34,894
- Yeah.
- Because they just announced
148
00:06:34,895 --> 00:06:36,186
that fluoride is a toxin now.
149
00:06:36,187 --> 00:06:37,396
I know that.
150
00:06:37,397 --> 00:06:38,397
I told you all along.
151
00:06:38,398 --> 00:06:40,107
It's in the water,
it's in the toothpaste.
152
00:06:40,108 --> 00:06:41,358
No, I know it's there,
but that doesn't mean
153
00:06:41,359 --> 00:06:43,694
- it's a toxin.
- Oh, you're filming us?
154
00:06:43,695 --> 00:06:45,237
I definitely feel sometimes
155
00:06:45,238 --> 00:06:46,864
that I'm not only
married to a writer,
156
00:06:46,865 --> 00:06:50,492
but also even
more so a detective.
157
00:06:50,493 --> 00:06:51,869
When I decided to write a book
158
00:06:51,870 --> 00:06:55,414
on the story behind Batman,
it hadn't been done yet.
159
00:06:55,415 --> 00:06:57,041
Whenever you start
a research project,
160
00:06:57,042 --> 00:06:58,876
you can't possibly know how much
161
00:06:58,877 --> 00:07:00,210
or how little
you're going to find.
162
00:07:00,211 --> 00:07:03,005
In this case, I was going
into the Batman book
163
00:07:03,006 --> 00:07:04,632
knowing that there were secrets
164
00:07:04,633 --> 00:07:06,592
that hadn't been
widely discussed,
165
00:07:06,593 --> 00:07:11,639
but I had no way to know it
was a lot more than that.
166
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:12,640
So this story, for me,
167
00:07:12,641 --> 00:07:16,268
was uncovering a
big superhero secret
168
00:07:16,269 --> 00:07:20,022
that should have been
blown wide decades ago.
169
00:07:20,023 --> 00:07:21,398
♪
170
00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:22,609
(car horn honks)
171
00:07:24,152 --> 00:07:26,570
In New York in 1965,
172
00:07:26,571 --> 00:07:28,614
was the first
official Comic Con,
173
00:07:28,615 --> 00:07:31,075
and the reason that
this is considered
174
00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:32,701
the first official Comic Con
175
00:07:32,702 --> 00:07:34,119
is because it was the first time
176
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:35,537
that professionals showed up,
177
00:07:35,538 --> 00:07:38,123
not just fans in
a hotel basement
178
00:07:38,124 --> 00:07:39,708
with some back issues.
179
00:07:39,709 --> 00:07:42,336
This was historic,
this was a big deal.
180
00:07:42,337 --> 00:07:43,462
They didn't know it at the time,
181
00:07:43,463 --> 00:07:44,797
but it was a big deal.
182
00:07:44,798 --> 00:07:47,591
There were 200 of us
at that Comic Con.
183
00:07:47,592 --> 00:07:49,593
♪
184
00:07:49,594 --> 00:07:51,887
And this place was so sketchy.
185
00:07:51,888 --> 00:07:53,847
And we got there,
and my mother freaked
186
00:07:53,848 --> 00:07:55,599
when she saw where we were.
187
00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,185
There was literally
a guy drunk, unconscious
188
00:07:58,186 --> 00:07:59,645
on the floor in the lobby,
189
00:07:59,646 --> 00:08:02,022
and roaches on the walls,
and she just said,
190
00:08:02,023 --> 00:08:03,315
"We're out of here,
we're leaving."
191
00:08:03,316 --> 00:08:05,109
The hotel itself,
a few months later,
192
00:08:05,110 --> 00:08:06,985
actually, much of it collapsed.
193
00:08:06,986 --> 00:08:09,530
Luckily, it didn't do so
while we were in there,
194
00:08:09,531 --> 00:08:11,281
but none of us was
particularly surprised
195
00:08:11,282 --> 00:08:13,450
to hear that the Broadway
Central had collapsed.
196
00:08:13,451 --> 00:08:16,537
My mom finally said,
"Okay, we'll stay,
197
00:08:16,538 --> 00:08:18,622
and you can go up to this
comic book convention,
198
00:08:18,623 --> 00:08:20,499
but don't touch anything."
199
00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:22,501
And as we went through the bar,
200
00:08:22,502 --> 00:08:24,795
we saw Otto Binder
sitting there at the bar
201
00:08:24,796 --> 00:08:26,213
with another guy drinking.
202
00:08:26,214 --> 00:08:29,091
And we go in and we sit
down on the stools.
203
00:08:29,092 --> 00:08:31,343
And he goes, "What are
you boys drinking?"
204
00:08:31,344 --> 00:08:33,387
We ordered our Cokes.
205
00:08:33,388 --> 00:08:35,806
And Otto turns to me and Bob,
206
00:08:35,807 --> 00:08:38,642
he said, "Boys, how
would you like to meet
207
00:08:38,643 --> 00:08:40,811
the creator of Batman?"
208
00:08:40,812 --> 00:08:42,730
And, like, our jaws dropped,
209
00:08:42,731 --> 00:08:46,150
our eyes had to be wide open,
210
00:08:46,151 --> 00:08:50,988
and we figured we were
going to meet Bob Kane,
211
00:08:50,989 --> 00:08:52,823
which was the only
name we ever saw
212
00:08:52,824 --> 00:08:54,825
on a comic book, it
was always in a box
213
00:08:54,826 --> 00:08:58,495
with a big "O" for Bob.
214
00:08:58,496 --> 00:09:02,958
And Otto said, "Fellas,
meet Bill Finger."
215
00:09:02,959 --> 00:09:07,171
♪
216
00:09:07,172 --> 00:09:09,131
So in 1965 at this Comic Con,
217
00:09:09,132 --> 00:09:10,507
in this dingy hotel in New York,
218
00:09:10,508 --> 00:09:12,593
Bill Finger made what
is probably his first
219
00:09:12,594 --> 00:09:14,636
and maybe his only
public appearance,
220
00:09:14,637 --> 00:09:16,013
and he appeared on a panel
221
00:09:16,014 --> 00:09:17,806
with three other
comics' creators.
222
00:09:17,807 --> 00:09:21,185
At this panel,
Bill was introduced
223
00:09:21,186 --> 00:09:23,688
by the moderator whose
name was Jerry Bails.
224
00:09:32,906 --> 00:09:33,906
And perhaps we'll hear some...
225
00:09:33,907 --> 00:09:37,659
Jerry was the fan,
who in 1964 or so,
226
00:09:37,660 --> 00:09:39,453
figured out that it could not be
227
00:09:39,454 --> 00:09:42,664
just this one guy, Bob Kane,
writing and drawing
228
00:09:42,665 --> 00:09:45,542
every Batman story every month.
229
00:09:45,543 --> 00:09:47,878
So Jerry did some
detective work of his own.
230
00:09:47,879 --> 00:09:50,047
He wrote letters
to DC Comics saying,
231
00:09:50,048 --> 00:09:51,215
"Who's really doing all this?"
232
00:09:51,216 --> 00:09:52,966
And in those days, companies
would write you back
233
00:09:52,967 --> 00:09:54,009
with a personal letter.
234
00:09:54,010 --> 00:09:55,886
And the name that he saw
more than any other
235
00:09:55,887 --> 00:09:57,472
was Bill Finger.
236
00:10:19,327 --> 00:10:22,371
So in 1965, Jerry wrote
a two-page article
237
00:10:22,372 --> 00:10:24,248
which was called
"If the Truth Be Known,"
238
00:10:24,249 --> 00:10:25,666
"A Finger in Every Plot!"
239
00:10:25,667 --> 00:10:27,543
And this was obviously
way before the internet,
240
00:10:27,544 --> 00:10:29,545
so his way of spreading the word
241
00:10:29,546 --> 00:10:31,171
was he made copies of
this and sent it out
242
00:10:31,172 --> 00:10:33,298
to Batman fans all
over the country.
243
00:10:33,299 --> 00:10:36,593
And that's when...
244
00:10:36,594 --> 00:10:38,554
the controversy erupted.
245
00:10:38,555 --> 00:10:41,932
Bill was given a forum
to tell his story
246
00:10:41,933 --> 00:10:43,851
where we could
finally become familiar
247
00:10:43,852 --> 00:10:45,435
with all these
characters and books
248
00:10:45,436 --> 00:10:47,229
that he wrote over the decades.
249
00:10:47,230 --> 00:10:48,939
It was the first thing
that, in writing,
250
00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:50,816
really gave Bill Finger credit
251
00:10:50,817 --> 00:10:52,568
for the co-creation of Batman,
252
00:10:52,569 --> 00:10:55,487
and it was about time.
253
00:10:55,488 --> 00:11:00,367
♪
254
00:11:00,368 --> 00:11:02,536
That fateful Friday in 1939
255
00:11:02,537 --> 00:11:04,621
when Bob told his editor
256
00:11:04,622 --> 00:11:06,707
that he would be able to
come up with a superhero
257
00:11:06,708 --> 00:11:07,708
over the weekend,
258
00:11:07,709 --> 00:11:09,126
he apparently did
go home that day
259
00:11:09,127 --> 00:11:12,004
and work on a character
which he called "Batman."
260
00:11:12,005 --> 00:11:14,298
Bob's idea for Batman
was a character
261
00:11:14,299 --> 00:11:17,384
in a red union suit,
basically red tights,
262
00:11:17,385 --> 00:11:19,428
a domino mask
which is a little mask
263
00:11:19,429 --> 00:11:21,805
like what Robin wears now,
264
00:11:21,806 --> 00:11:24,474
stiff wings
attached to the arms,
265
00:11:24,475 --> 00:11:27,394
and, as far as we
know, nothing more,
266
00:11:27,395 --> 00:11:30,022
no other
distinguishing elements.
267
00:11:30,023 --> 00:11:31,982
And he had enough sense to know
268
00:11:31,983 --> 00:11:33,942
that this was not good enough,
269
00:11:33,943 --> 00:11:35,360
and he knew who to call.
270
00:11:35,361 --> 00:11:38,655
Bill Finger.
271
00:11:38,656 --> 00:11:40,908
They get together.
272
00:11:40,909 --> 00:11:43,994
They're huddling
over this drawing,
273
00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:46,330
and Bill looked at
the red suit and said,
274
00:11:46,331 --> 00:11:49,666
"This is not suitable for
a creature of the night.
275
00:11:49,667 --> 00:11:51,293
He's got to be
darker," so he said,
276
00:11:51,294 --> 00:11:53,253
"Let's darken
the whole costume."
277
00:11:53,254 --> 00:11:54,713
He looked at the
little mask and said,
278
00:11:54,714 --> 00:11:56,673
"This is not going to
intimidate criminals.
279
00:11:56,674 --> 00:11:58,675
Let's cover most of
his face with a cowl
280
00:11:58,676 --> 00:11:59,843
and put pointed ears on it,
281
00:11:59,844 --> 00:12:02,554
so that he actually
looks like his namesake.
282
00:12:02,555 --> 00:12:04,806
The stiff wings
are not practical
283
00:12:04,807 --> 00:12:07,184
for obvious reasons,
so let's ditch the wings
284
00:12:07,185 --> 00:12:09,728
and give him a cape
with a scalloped edge
285
00:12:09,729 --> 00:12:11,563
which will fly out behind him
286
00:12:11,564 --> 00:12:14,107
and look like wings."
287
00:12:14,108 --> 00:12:16,652
You set the tone of
this character's essence
288
00:12:16,653 --> 00:12:18,237
from his visuals
before you know a thing
289
00:12:18,238 --> 00:12:20,489
about his personality
and his mission.
290
00:12:20,490 --> 00:12:22,824
So that was all Bill.
291
00:12:22,825 --> 00:12:24,451
Bill reconstructed Batman
292
00:12:24,452 --> 00:12:27,412
into the Batman that
we all know today.
293
00:12:27,413 --> 00:12:28,789
Bob apparently
went to the company
294
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:30,582
on Monday morning
with this sketch.
295
00:12:30,583 --> 00:12:32,960
Did not mention that there
was anyone else involved,
296
00:12:32,961 --> 00:12:36,672
and said, "This is my idea."
297
00:12:36,673 --> 00:12:38,966
I have been told, although
I've never been privy,
298
00:12:38,967 --> 00:12:40,550
of course, to the contract,
299
00:12:40,551 --> 00:12:44,888
that that contract included
300
00:12:44,889 --> 00:12:47,015
specifically a stipulation
301
00:12:47,016 --> 00:12:51,603
that Batman would
hereafter be listed
302
00:12:51,604 --> 00:12:54,064
as the sole
creation of Bob Kane.
303
00:12:54,065 --> 00:12:56,275
Bob went back to Bill
and presumably said,
304
00:12:56,276 --> 00:12:57,943
"Great news, they
want to buy Batman,
305
00:12:57,944 --> 00:13:00,237
so you'll write it
and I'll draw it,
306
00:13:00,238 --> 00:13:01,238
and my name will be on it
307
00:13:01,239 --> 00:13:02,781
because I sold it, of course,
308
00:13:02,782 --> 00:13:04,950
and I'll give you a portion
of what I get paid."
309
00:13:04,951 --> 00:13:06,576
Nothing was signed,
as far as we know,
310
00:13:06,577 --> 00:13:09,788
but it was something that
they mutually agreed on.
311
00:13:09,789 --> 00:13:12,582
So Bill was not credited
at all from the beginning,
312
00:13:12,583 --> 00:13:14,501
and within a couple of months,
313
00:13:14,502 --> 00:13:16,837
Batman was on the newsstands.
314
00:13:16,838 --> 00:13:20,549
♪
315
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:23,343
Batman debuted in '39
and, essentially,
316
00:13:23,344 --> 00:13:27,848
it was from 1939 to 1965
where Bill was anonymous.
317
00:13:27,849 --> 00:13:30,726
It's one thing for
Bob Kane in 1939
318
00:13:30,727 --> 00:13:33,103
to take full credit for Batman
319
00:13:33,104 --> 00:13:34,771
when Bill Finger agreed to it,
320
00:13:34,772 --> 00:13:36,523
but where the story
changes dramatically
321
00:13:36,524 --> 00:13:39,109
is in the '60s when
Bill is coaxed out.
322
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:42,446
At that point, Bob had
a decision to make.
323
00:13:42,447 --> 00:13:43,864
"Am I going to own up to this
324
00:13:43,865 --> 00:13:46,616
or am I going to deny it
from my position of power?"
325
00:13:46,617 --> 00:13:48,785
He had a chance to take,
obviously, the high road
326
00:13:48,786 --> 00:13:49,786
or the low road,
327
00:13:49,787 --> 00:13:53,290
and he took the way low road.
328
00:13:53,291 --> 00:13:56,626
When Jerry's article about
what Bill Finger had done
329
00:13:56,627 --> 00:13:57,836
on Batman came out,
330
00:13:57,837 --> 00:14:00,297
of course it made
Bob Kane go ballistic
331
00:14:00,298 --> 00:14:01,882
the minute that he saw it,
332
00:14:01,883 --> 00:14:04,760
so he went to the
editor of Batmania
333
00:14:04,761 --> 00:14:08,638
and he wrote half a
dozen pages of diatribe.
334
00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:10,640
Obviously, Bob Kane did not want
335
00:14:10,641 --> 00:14:12,184
Bill Finger's story told
336
00:14:12,185 --> 00:14:15,479
and took tremendous
offense at it.
337
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,022
"Here, for the first time,
338
00:14:17,023 --> 00:14:18,732
straight from the horse's mouth,
339
00:14:18,733 --> 00:14:21,860
is the real inside story
about myself and Batman.
340
00:14:21,861 --> 00:14:23,487
It seemed to me that Bill Finger
341
00:14:23,488 --> 00:14:26,198
has given out the impression
that he and not myself
342
00:14:26,199 --> 00:14:28,658
created the 'Batman'
as well as Robin
343
00:14:28,659 --> 00:14:31,286
and all the other leading
villains and characters.
344
00:14:31,287 --> 00:14:34,831
This statement is fraudulent
and entirely untrue!"
345
00:14:34,832 --> 00:14:36,833
There was one man's
word against the other.
346
00:14:36,834 --> 00:14:38,168
There was no reality show
347
00:14:38,169 --> 00:14:40,754
documenting the birth
of Batman, of course.
348
00:14:40,755 --> 00:14:42,005
It was two guys in an apartment
349
00:14:42,006 --> 00:14:44,007
in the Bronx in 1939
when most people had
350
00:14:44,008 --> 00:14:45,509
much bigger things
to worry about
351
00:14:45,510 --> 00:14:47,385
than who's coming up with
this guy dressed as a bat?
352
00:14:47,386 --> 00:14:49,805
"The truth is that Bill
Finger is taking credit
353
00:14:49,806 --> 00:14:51,640
for much more than he deserves,
354
00:14:51,641 --> 00:14:54,601
and I refute much of his
statements here in print.
355
00:14:54,602 --> 00:14:57,020
The fact is that I
conceived the 'Batman' figure
356
00:14:57,021 --> 00:14:59,189
and costume entirely by myself.
357
00:14:59,190 --> 00:15:01,108
I created the title, masthead,
358
00:15:01,109 --> 00:15:02,526
the format and concept,
359
00:15:02,527 --> 00:15:05,153
as well as the Batman
figure and costume."
360
00:15:05,154 --> 00:15:07,489
I don't think that
Bob Kane ever wanted
361
00:15:07,490 --> 00:15:09,074
anything out in writing
362
00:15:09,075 --> 00:15:10,575
that would admit
that anybody else
363
00:15:10,576 --> 00:15:12,577
had a hand in creating
anything for Batman.
364
00:15:12,578 --> 00:15:15,288
His whole myth,
his contract with DC,
365
00:15:15,289 --> 00:15:17,874
his name on the stories
all owed to the fact
366
00:15:17,875 --> 00:15:20,710
that he was the
creator of Batman.
367
00:15:20,711 --> 00:15:22,337
When Bob chose to respond
368
00:15:22,338 --> 00:15:24,881
to Bill's coming out
by writing a letter
369
00:15:24,882 --> 00:15:28,510
denying Bill's
involvement to that degree,
370
00:15:28,511 --> 00:15:30,846
Bob was, in effect,
changing the course
371
00:15:30,847 --> 00:15:32,389
of his life with this letter.
372
00:15:32,390 --> 00:15:34,266
He was saying, "I'm
going to have to stick
373
00:15:34,267 --> 00:15:36,977
to this story forever."
374
00:15:36,978 --> 00:15:39,688
♪
375
00:15:39,689 --> 00:15:42,899
We're all born with a
natural creative potential.
376
00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:44,943
Every man has it
and every woman.
377
00:15:44,944 --> 00:15:47,821
The idea is to find
out what that is.
378
00:15:47,822 --> 00:15:50,073
And it's like a
little birdie tells you
379
00:15:50,074 --> 00:15:52,909
and whispers in your ear,
it's an intuitive thing.
380
00:15:52,910 --> 00:15:55,370
No one can tell
you that but God.
381
00:15:55,371 --> 00:15:59,374
And I knew I had that
when I was eight or ten
382
00:15:59,375 --> 00:16:01,626
that I wanted to be
a famous cartoonist.
383
00:16:01,627 --> 00:16:04,546
Bob Kane was a kid
from the Bronx,
384
00:16:04,547 --> 00:16:08,300
and he was an artist
with big dreams.
385
00:16:08,301 --> 00:16:10,260
He was a go-getter
and he was working
386
00:16:10,261 --> 00:16:13,096
for the company that
would become DC Comics
387
00:16:13,097 --> 00:16:15,932
which at that point was
called National Periodical.
388
00:16:15,933 --> 00:16:18,436
Bob and Bill met at a party.
389
00:16:20,479 --> 00:16:22,814
They didn't know each
other previous to that
390
00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:25,066
even though they went
to the same high school.
391
00:16:25,067 --> 00:16:28,028
And Bill was a shoe salesman.
392
00:16:28,029 --> 00:16:30,280
He had aspirations
to become a writer.
393
00:16:30,281 --> 00:16:31,781
I said, "Why don't
you try writing
394
00:16:31,782 --> 00:16:33,283
for the new comic book?"
395
00:16:33,284 --> 00:16:35,577
Bob was already
working in comics,
396
00:16:35,578 --> 00:16:37,954
drawing stories, and Bob
could immediately sense
397
00:16:37,955 --> 00:16:41,499
that Bill was good with
narrative, had good ideas.
398
00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:42,500
It sounds like they were
399
00:16:42,501 --> 00:16:43,710
very different types of people,
400
00:16:43,711 --> 00:16:45,295
but I think what
they had in common
401
00:16:45,296 --> 00:16:49,133
was their love of the
new medium of comics.
402
00:16:51,052 --> 00:16:53,637
In the early days,
really, it was Superman
403
00:16:53,638 --> 00:16:56,640
that brought the comic
book publishing industry
404
00:16:56,641 --> 00:17:01,311
out of this mire of
reprints of comic strips.
405
00:17:01,312 --> 00:17:04,481
It was very much kind of
a fly-by-night industry.
406
00:17:04,482 --> 00:17:05,774
You had a comic publisher
407
00:17:05,775 --> 00:17:08,026
which is maybe a couple
guys at a couple desks
408
00:17:08,027 --> 00:17:10,320
in a couple of rooms
in Midtown somewhere,
409
00:17:10,321 --> 00:17:12,113
and what they largely
did is they farmed out
410
00:17:12,114 --> 00:17:13,823
the actual production
of comic book stories
411
00:17:13,824 --> 00:17:16,034
to what were known as "shops."
412
00:17:16,035 --> 00:17:18,245
You had guys just laying
down the pencil artwork,
413
00:17:18,246 --> 00:17:20,413
you had inkers and finishers
that were then putting
414
00:17:20,414 --> 00:17:22,374
permanent artwork
on top of that.
415
00:17:22,375 --> 00:17:23,667
There were people
doing paste up,
416
00:17:23,668 --> 00:17:25,168
there were people
adding word balloons.
417
00:17:25,169 --> 00:17:27,337
Bob Kane and Bill Finger
418
00:17:27,338 --> 00:17:30,006
were, in effect, a sort of shop.
419
00:17:30,007 --> 00:17:31,049
Bob was the only one
420
00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:32,842
dealing with the
publisher directly.
421
00:17:32,843 --> 00:17:35,887
Kane had his name on
the Batman stories,
422
00:17:35,888 --> 00:17:38,014
but he didn't tell
anybody about Bill Finger,
423
00:17:38,015 --> 00:17:39,432
and, of course, you assumed
424
00:17:39,433 --> 00:17:42,894
that he had done
the whole thing,
425
00:17:42,895 --> 00:17:44,896
and I think that's just
the way Bob wanted it.
426
00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:47,399
From a corporation
point of view,
427
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,692
they contract Bob Kane,
428
00:17:48,693 --> 00:17:50,986
Bob Kane is supposed to
deliver pages to them,
429
00:17:50,987 --> 00:17:52,112
and that's all they cared about.
430
00:17:52,113 --> 00:17:54,114
They're going, "I don't
care how you build it,"
431
00:17:54,115 --> 00:17:56,199
right, just, "I need it
built every 30 days
432
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,868
because we've got a publishing
deadline coming here."
433
00:17:58,869 --> 00:18:01,079
So in order to meet the demands
434
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,415
of the hungry audience
and feed the machine
435
00:18:03,416 --> 00:18:05,166
and earn money by cranking out
436
00:18:05,167 --> 00:18:07,419
as many different Batman
titles as possible,
437
00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:09,838
they would hire ghost
writers back in the day.
438
00:18:09,839 --> 00:18:11,381
Bob Kane would get
credit for the story.
439
00:18:11,382 --> 00:18:13,133
He'd hand it in,
"Here's my Batman story."
440
00:18:13,134 --> 00:18:14,259
They're like, "Bob,
you're a genius,"
441
00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:15,844
and, you know, that's
how the industry worked
442
00:18:15,845 --> 00:18:17,262
for a long, long time.
443
00:18:17,263 --> 00:18:19,347
Most ghost artists
or ghost writers
444
00:18:19,348 --> 00:18:22,058
were there just to
execute the vision
445
00:18:22,059 --> 00:18:24,811
or the work directive
of the guy hiring them.
446
00:18:24,812 --> 00:18:28,064
They weren't there to sort
of create new concepts.
447
00:18:28,065 --> 00:18:31,901
But because Bill Finger
was there at the beginning,
448
00:18:31,902 --> 00:18:33,903
he wasn't just a ghost writer.
449
00:18:33,904 --> 00:18:37,407
He wasn't just the guy
that was brought on later on
450
00:18:37,408 --> 00:18:40,410
when Batman was already
running and successful
451
00:18:40,411 --> 00:18:43,246
and all the tropes
were in place.
452
00:18:43,247 --> 00:18:46,916
Bill Finger basically
created all those tropes,
453
00:18:46,917 --> 00:18:51,504
but in the actual work hierarchy
454
00:18:51,505 --> 00:18:54,175
as just a ghost writer.
455
00:18:56,177 --> 00:18:58,136
(birds chirping)
456
00:18:58,137 --> 00:19:01,348
I had never researched
a person to this extent.
457
00:19:01,349 --> 00:19:03,933
I mean, this became
such a quest,
458
00:19:03,934 --> 00:19:05,060
and there just seemed to be
459
00:19:05,061 --> 00:19:07,979
such a higher moral
obligation to this.
460
00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:11,441
You know, this is 700 pages
of information on a subject
461
00:19:11,442 --> 00:19:12,817
that some people told
me at the beginning,
462
00:19:12,818 --> 00:19:14,736
"There's nothing more to
learn about Bill Finger."
463
00:19:14,737 --> 00:19:17,364
I did feel this
calling to do this.
464
00:19:17,365 --> 00:19:18,448
Especially with something as
465
00:19:18,449 --> 00:19:19,949
phenomenally
successful as Batman,
466
00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:23,370
how could this not have
been so well-known?
467
00:19:23,371 --> 00:19:25,955
The first panel of
the first Batman story,
468
00:19:25,956 --> 00:19:27,457
just setting up this mysterious,
469
00:19:27,458 --> 00:19:29,292
foreboding character says,
470
00:19:29,293 --> 00:19:31,920
"His identity
remains unknown."
471
00:19:31,921 --> 00:19:34,339
Obviously that's Bill
writing about Batman,
472
00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:36,257
but it ended up being a prophesy
473
00:19:36,258 --> 00:19:39,886
because Bill was
Batman's secret identity.
474
00:19:39,887 --> 00:19:42,722
When I started the
research on this project,
475
00:19:42,723 --> 00:19:44,849
there were only two known photos
476
00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:46,267
of Bill in circulation.
477
00:19:46,268 --> 00:19:48,812
It was either him with
a baseball cap in profile
478
00:19:48,813 --> 00:19:53,650
or him golfing, half in
shadow and not that close.
479
00:19:53,651 --> 00:19:56,319
From seven sources
over nine months,
480
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,781
I ended up finding 11
more photos of Bill.
481
00:19:59,782 --> 00:20:02,242
He was interviewed
only a few times,
482
00:20:02,243 --> 00:20:03,952
so for a man of Bill's impact
483
00:20:03,953 --> 00:20:06,538
to have only these few
recorded interviews
484
00:20:06,539 --> 00:20:08,164
in existence is just staggering,
485
00:20:08,165 --> 00:20:12,168
so the first time was
Jerry Bail's in 1965
486
00:20:12,169 --> 00:20:16,339
and then for the 1970
book History of Comics.
487
00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:18,633
And it turns out that in 1972,
488
00:20:18,634 --> 00:20:21,553
a man in California
named Robert Porfirio
489
00:20:21,554 --> 00:20:23,680
interviewed Bill on audio.
490
00:20:23,681 --> 00:20:25,014
It took a while, but eventually
491
00:20:25,015 --> 00:20:27,475
we actually did find
this audio recording...
492
00:20:27,476 --> 00:20:30,061
Testing, one... do you want
to say something, or...?
493
00:20:30,062 --> 00:20:31,229
Yeah, sure.
494
00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:33,022
How are you?
495
00:20:33,023 --> 00:20:37,026
...which was one of the
more emotional moments
496
00:20:37,027 --> 00:20:38,153
I would say, for me,
because it was
497
00:20:38,154 --> 00:20:40,364
the first time that
I heard Bill's voice.
498
00:21:07,057 --> 00:21:08,057
To write this book,
499
00:21:08,058 --> 00:21:10,810
I spoke to more than 250 people.
500
00:21:10,811 --> 00:21:14,606
Of that number,
a handful, maybe a dozen,
501
00:21:14,607 --> 00:21:17,317
knew both Bill
and Bob personally.
502
00:21:17,318 --> 00:21:20,195
Two of the creators
that were hugely helpful
503
00:21:20,196 --> 00:21:23,782
and impactful in this
process were Jerry Robinson,
504
00:21:23,783 --> 00:21:25,950
one of the earliest
Batman ghost artists,
505
00:21:25,951 --> 00:21:27,577
and Carmine Infantino.
506
00:21:27,578 --> 00:21:29,370
He was the artist that redefined
507
00:21:29,371 --> 00:21:30,872
Batman's look in the '60s,
508
00:21:30,873 --> 00:21:32,791
and Carmine went on
to become the publisher
509
00:21:32,792 --> 00:21:35,877
of DC Comics for
a time in the '70s.
510
00:21:35,878 --> 00:21:38,046
He was genius, literally genius.
511
00:21:38,047 --> 00:21:39,714
I believe that.
512
00:21:39,715 --> 00:21:41,925
I know Bob tried to take
credit for everything.
513
00:21:41,926 --> 00:21:46,304
He should have been credited
as co-creator of Batman.
514
00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:48,681
He said, "I'd like to
get some ownership."
515
00:21:48,682 --> 00:21:50,016
No, he didn't say,
he said, "I'd like to get
516
00:21:50,017 --> 00:21:53,019
a piece of that
because I did it."
517
00:21:53,020 --> 00:21:56,064
So, but then he said,
"I can't afford a lawyer,
518
00:21:56,065 --> 00:21:58,650
and they know that,"
quote, "They know that."
519
00:21:58,651 --> 00:22:02,737
They told me in, you know,
in no uncertain terms,
520
00:22:02,738 --> 00:22:03,822
that they thought Bill Finger
521
00:22:03,823 --> 00:22:05,782
was deprived of his legacy.
522
00:22:05,783 --> 00:22:08,451
He is the Batman, Bill was.
523
00:22:08,452 --> 00:22:11,037
Everything you would think
that's good, that's Bill.
524
00:22:11,038 --> 00:22:12,789
They take away their humanity
525
00:22:12,790 --> 00:22:14,958
when you take away their credit.
526
00:22:14,959 --> 00:22:16,459
Basically both of them said,
527
00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:18,294
"Without Bill,
there'd be no Batman."
528
00:22:18,295 --> 00:22:20,046
It's that simple.
529
00:22:20,047 --> 00:22:22,799
And that's because
Bill did the following:
530
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,593
Bill Finger was the
dominant creative force
531
00:22:25,594 --> 00:22:28,429
and original writer of Batman,
532
00:22:28,430 --> 00:22:31,975
Robin, the Joker,
Catwoman, the Riddler,
533
00:22:31,976 --> 00:22:34,269
the Penguin, the Scarecrow,
534
00:22:34,270 --> 00:22:36,980
Commissioner Gordon,
Bruce Wayne, and Dick Grayson.
535
00:22:36,981 --> 00:22:38,690
He named Gotham City.
536
00:22:38,691 --> 00:22:40,900
He nicknamed Batman
"The Dark Knight."
537
00:22:40,901 --> 00:22:42,986
He was the first person
to write a story
538
00:22:42,987 --> 00:22:44,571
with the Batmobile
and the Batcave
539
00:22:44,572 --> 00:22:45,989
called those things.
540
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:47,782
He wrote Batman's origin.
541
00:22:47,783 --> 00:22:50,660
It was just a two-page
story, but it was seismic.
542
00:22:50,661 --> 00:22:53,538
This eight-year-old boy
sees his parents murdered
543
00:22:53,539 --> 00:22:55,123
right before his eyes
and makes a vow
544
00:22:55,124 --> 00:22:58,877
that he will not let this
happen to other people.
545
00:22:58,878 --> 00:23:01,170
I mean, the guy
built this world.
546
00:23:01,171 --> 00:23:04,215
He kept what he called
the "gimmick book."
547
00:23:04,216 --> 00:23:05,717
He would fill that
up with story ideas,
548
00:23:05,718 --> 00:23:07,302
and he would just
sometimes take a bus
549
00:23:07,303 --> 00:23:09,012
around the city to get inspired.
550
00:23:09,013 --> 00:23:11,097
He would just notate
and just be an observer.
551
00:23:11,098 --> 00:23:13,349
He would do extensive
research for scripts.
552
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:15,518
He would attach
clippings for the artists
553
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:17,186
so that they would
have reference.
554
00:23:17,187 --> 00:23:18,646
He thought very visually.
555
00:23:18,647 --> 00:23:19,772
He thought cinematically.
556
00:23:19,773 --> 00:23:23,026
He would write these
big, epic scenes.
557
00:23:23,027 --> 00:23:25,403
One of the things that
he's best known for
558
00:23:25,404 --> 00:23:27,864
was writing stories
with oversized props,
559
00:23:27,865 --> 00:23:29,991
so Batman and Robin
fighting on top
560
00:23:29,992 --> 00:23:32,076
of a giant typewriter
with some criminals,
561
00:23:32,077 --> 00:23:33,828
and this stuff was
just wildly fun
562
00:23:33,829 --> 00:23:35,038
and inventive to look at.
563
00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:38,082
He had a hero who
looked like a villain.
564
00:23:38,083 --> 00:23:40,960
He had a superhero who
was also a detective.
565
00:23:40,961 --> 00:23:43,046
He was smart, he wasn't
just using brawn,
566
00:23:43,047 --> 00:23:44,631
he was using brains too.
567
00:23:44,632 --> 00:23:47,050
Bill took all this and
put it in a crucible
568
00:23:47,051 --> 00:23:48,134
and mixed it together
569
00:23:48,135 --> 00:23:51,262
and brought this
deeper sense to stories
570
00:23:51,263 --> 00:23:55,224
that up to that point were
considered somewhat frivolous.
571
00:23:55,225 --> 00:23:57,310
The aspects of
the character, man,
572
00:23:57,311 --> 00:23:59,395
that Bill brought to
it, like the notion
573
00:23:59,396 --> 00:24:01,731
of a little boy in the
city with his parents
574
00:24:01,732 --> 00:24:03,983
who get gunned down,
and at a young age,
575
00:24:03,984 --> 00:24:05,568
that's what he's
going to take with him
576
00:24:05,569 --> 00:24:07,362
for the rest of his life.
577
00:24:07,363 --> 00:24:09,489
And the dude is
just a human being
578
00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:10,615
who's just a guy.
579
00:24:10,616 --> 00:24:12,158
That's it, got no superpowers.
580
00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:13,368
He's got some
pretty nifty things
581
00:24:13,369 --> 00:24:16,162
in his belt and stuff,
but he's relentless.
582
00:24:16,163 --> 00:24:17,830
He's a creature of passion.
583
00:24:17,831 --> 00:24:20,416
It's a character that
kind of keeps you reaching.
584
00:24:20,417 --> 00:24:21,751
It's a character
that people build
585
00:24:21,752 --> 00:24:25,546
their moral compass upon,
or, "That's my guy."
586
00:24:25,547 --> 00:24:28,633
That's what makes
Batman so beautiful.
587
00:24:28,634 --> 00:24:32,095
You don't get there
without Bill Finger, man.
588
00:24:32,096 --> 00:24:34,597
♪
589
00:24:34,598 --> 00:24:36,557
♪ Batman ♪♪
590
00:24:36,558 --> 00:24:38,101
Week after week,
the Caped Crusader
591
00:24:38,102 --> 00:24:41,020
copes with the tricky
traps of vicious villains.
592
00:24:41,021 --> 00:24:42,814
♪
593
00:24:42,815 --> 00:24:44,607
The breakout culturally,
594
00:24:44,608 --> 00:24:47,318
as well as simply
in the ratings books,
595
00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:50,989
was the 1966 Batman
television series.
596
00:24:50,990 --> 00:24:52,198
See the Dynamic Duo
597
00:24:52,199 --> 00:24:54,200
dangle from new
heights of danger.
598
00:24:54,201 --> 00:24:56,160
Careful, Robin,
it's quite a drop.
599
00:24:56,161 --> 00:24:57,870
This was not the
dark and serious
600
00:24:57,871 --> 00:24:59,038
creature of the night
601
00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:01,708
as created by Bob Kane
and Bill Finger.
602
00:25:01,709 --> 00:25:04,836
It caused quite a stir
in what was the beginning
603
00:25:04,837 --> 00:25:08,172
of the pop art phase
of America's culture.
604
00:25:08,173 --> 00:25:10,633
Be with Batman and
Robin twice weekly
605
00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:13,219
in color, of course, on ABC.
606
00:25:13,220 --> 00:25:17,140
♪
607
00:25:17,141 --> 00:25:21,310
Starting with the debut of
the Batman TV show in 1966,
608
00:25:21,311 --> 00:25:24,063
Bill and Bob's
trajectories diverged
609
00:25:24,064 --> 00:25:26,607
even more starkly
than ever before.
610
00:25:26,608 --> 00:25:28,818
You know, Bob was
just going up, up, up,
611
00:25:28,819 --> 00:25:30,945
and Bill was really plummeting.
612
00:25:30,946 --> 00:25:33,865
The TV show changed
Bob's life dramatically
613
00:25:33,866 --> 00:25:36,951
because that's where he got
a big payout for Batman
614
00:25:36,952 --> 00:25:38,828
which made him wealthy.
615
00:25:38,829 --> 00:25:43,750
You stopped drawing the
comic book in the '60s,
616
00:25:43,751 --> 00:25:46,669
and what happened, did
you sell the rights then?
617
00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:49,130
No, it wasn't that,
when I stopped drawing,
618
00:25:49,131 --> 00:25:50,923
I never sold all the rights.
619
00:25:50,924 --> 00:25:53,509
I own a piece of the Batman.
620
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:55,011
And so you still have...
621
00:25:55,012 --> 00:25:57,180
you still have a
copyright on Batman?
622
00:25:57,181 --> 00:25:59,849
Well, everyone wants to
know that, don't they?
623
00:25:59,850 --> 00:26:02,727
I'll let you figure it...
I'll let you figure it out.
624
00:26:02,728 --> 00:26:05,146
I answered it before,
a piece of it.
625
00:26:05,147 --> 00:26:06,564
A piece of it, okay.
626
00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:08,066
It's a pie.
627
00:26:08,067 --> 00:26:10,401
It's a pie that's cut up.
628
00:26:10,402 --> 00:26:11,944
(chuckling)
629
00:26:11,945 --> 00:26:15,573
After the Batman TV show,
Bob was able to parlay that
630
00:26:15,574 --> 00:26:18,201
into some degree of celebrity
631
00:26:18,202 --> 00:26:19,869
without being directly involved.
632
00:26:19,870 --> 00:26:22,205
He was in full-on peacock mode
633
00:26:22,206 --> 00:26:26,876
displaying himself as
Batman's real-life alter ego.
634
00:26:26,877 --> 00:26:28,377
He wanted to be famous, right?
635
00:26:28,378 --> 00:26:31,714
I mean, which was odd
because most creative people
636
00:26:31,715 --> 00:26:33,841
in our industry
just... they did it
637
00:26:33,842 --> 00:26:35,259
for the creative reasons
638
00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:37,804
because they were
just manic artists.
639
00:26:37,805 --> 00:26:39,555
But I got a sense
outta Mr. Kane,
640
00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:43,476
that it was like a plan
and, "Oh, I got to do artwork
641
00:26:43,477 --> 00:26:45,144
to get the quasi-celebrity,"
642
00:26:45,145 --> 00:26:47,021
which was sort of
reverse engineering
643
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:48,231
from what most of us do.
644
00:26:48,232 --> 00:26:49,941
We just go, "We do art,
and oh, by the way,
645
00:26:49,942 --> 00:26:52,026
people think we're
famous, oh, cool."
646
00:26:52,027 --> 00:26:55,780
And then I started
painting Batman oils
647
00:26:55,781 --> 00:26:57,824
and I have other
non-Batman art,
648
00:26:57,825 --> 00:27:00,326
and I've had shows all over
the world with my art.
649
00:27:00,327 --> 00:27:05,206
So he starts doing a series
of Batman lithographs,
650
00:27:05,207 --> 00:27:08,251
and he's pushing
these lithos as his,
651
00:27:08,252 --> 00:27:11,879
and, again, he's got
another ghost artist
652
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,216
who's, you know, actually
doing these lithographs.
653
00:27:15,217 --> 00:27:17,802
Bob made his careers
654
00:27:17,803 --> 00:27:19,846
by having other
people do the work
655
00:27:19,847 --> 00:27:21,139
and putting his name on it.
656
00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:23,933
That was his...
That was his strategy.
657
00:27:23,934 --> 00:27:25,476
It was Bob Kane's pictures
658
00:27:25,477 --> 00:27:27,311
you saw in magazines
and newspapers.
659
00:27:27,312 --> 00:27:30,898
It was about Bob Kane's
art gallery showings.
660
00:27:30,899 --> 00:27:33,442
Bob became one
of the first-ever
661
00:27:33,443 --> 00:27:35,112
comic book celebrities.
662
00:27:36,655 --> 00:27:40,324
The Batman TV show did
almost nothing for Bill.
663
00:27:40,325 --> 00:27:41,576
The significance of it was
664
00:27:41,577 --> 00:27:43,536
that Bill was the
only writer from comics
665
00:27:43,537 --> 00:27:45,621
who wrote an episode
of the TV show.
666
00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:47,373
Actually, the Batman
show that he co-wrote
667
00:27:47,374 --> 00:27:49,333
with his friend
named Charles Sinclair
668
00:27:49,334 --> 00:27:53,296
was his only
published Batman credit.
669
00:27:53,297 --> 00:27:56,382
We did a Batman TV thing,
670
00:27:56,383 --> 00:27:59,760
and "The Clock King's
Crazy Crimes,"
671
00:27:59,761 --> 00:28:01,137
thank you very much.
672
00:28:01,138 --> 00:28:04,432
And Bill thought of
all kinds of gimmicks
673
00:28:04,433 --> 00:28:07,560
for clocks and time.
674
00:28:07,561 --> 00:28:09,645
When we got confirmation
675
00:28:09,646 --> 00:28:12,982
that we had sold to Batman,
676
00:28:12,983 --> 00:28:16,569
Bill was kind of digging
his toe in the sand
677
00:28:16,570 --> 00:28:18,154
and hemming and hawing,
678
00:28:18,155 --> 00:28:20,281
and I knew he had
something on his mind.
679
00:28:20,282 --> 00:28:21,490
Finally, I said, "Come on, Bill,
680
00:28:21,491 --> 00:28:22,658
what the hell's on your mind?
681
00:28:22,659 --> 00:28:24,368
There's something eating you.
682
00:28:24,369 --> 00:28:27,204
What is it and how
can I help you?"
683
00:28:27,205 --> 00:28:31,959
Well, it was the
billing on the show.
684
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:37,381
Bill said, "Could I just
this once get top billing?"
685
00:28:37,382 --> 00:28:41,344
I said, "Sure, why not?"
686
00:28:41,345 --> 00:28:45,014
Bill Finger,
at that point in time,
687
00:28:45,015 --> 00:28:48,726
had a little
black-and-white TV set.
688
00:28:48,727 --> 00:28:51,604
I said, "Bill, you've
got to see this thing
689
00:28:51,605 --> 00:28:53,731
in color," you know.
690
00:28:53,732 --> 00:28:55,858
So I called a friend at ABC,
691
00:28:55,859 --> 00:29:02,573
and we went and sat in
a client viewing room...
692
00:29:02,574 --> 00:29:04,992
and saw this Batman thing,
693
00:29:04,993 --> 00:29:09,538
Bill and I, on a big color set.
694
00:29:09,539 --> 00:29:12,291
Bill was
thunderstruck, you know?
695
00:29:12,292 --> 00:29:16,045
I don't know if he
actually had any tears
696
00:29:16,046 --> 00:29:17,380
running down his
cheeks, you know,
697
00:29:17,381 --> 00:29:20,383
but I think he
came pretty close.
698
00:29:20,384 --> 00:29:24,470
Bang, he saw his name,
you know, top billing
699
00:29:24,471 --> 00:29:27,139
in color on a big TV screen.
700
00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:29,308
I mean, this was
like the high point
701
00:29:29,309 --> 00:29:31,519
of his creative life.
702
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,899
♪
703
00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:39,527
Most of the Golden Age writers
704
00:29:39,528 --> 00:29:41,445
began to be phased out
705
00:29:41,446 --> 00:29:44,281
by the middle and
latter '60s at DC.
706
00:29:44,282 --> 00:29:46,826
A new era of talent
were coming in,
707
00:29:46,827 --> 00:29:48,119
fans who were becoming
708
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,079
the new writers of comic books,
709
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,998
the new artists of comic books,
710
00:29:51,999 --> 00:29:55,084
and people from the
original generation
711
00:29:55,085 --> 00:29:57,169
were finding it
harder and harder
712
00:29:57,170 --> 00:29:59,088
and harder to adapt.
713
00:29:59,089 --> 00:30:01,257
The company was saying,
"Just because they may have
714
00:30:01,258 --> 00:30:03,968
co-created or written these
characters back in the '40s,
715
00:30:03,969 --> 00:30:05,428
we need young, fresh blood."
716
00:30:05,429 --> 00:30:07,763
Who cares if Bill
Finger writes Batman?
717
00:30:07,764 --> 00:30:10,099
There seemed to be
a lack of respect
718
00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:11,434
for his body of work.
719
00:30:11,435 --> 00:30:13,436
I mean, that's how some
people would interpret it.
720
00:30:13,437 --> 00:30:15,271
This was not just a guy
who created a character
721
00:30:15,272 --> 00:30:16,689
that we've used a few times.
722
00:30:16,690 --> 00:30:18,482
This is a guy who
created an entire world
723
00:30:18,483 --> 00:30:21,318
that we are milking to the bone.
724
00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:24,071
So I can't even
imagine what he felt.
725
00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:25,823
He spent the rest
of the '60s writing,
726
00:30:25,824 --> 00:30:28,951
but not Batman, not even comics.
727
00:30:28,952 --> 00:30:31,120
He wrote carpentry articles,
728
00:30:31,121 --> 00:30:34,290
he ended up writing for
the Army Pictorial Center.
729
00:30:34,291 --> 00:30:36,751
So he was always
struggling for money.
730
00:30:36,752 --> 00:30:38,169
He was under strain,
731
00:30:38,170 --> 00:30:42,131
I think he was
skimping on medications.
732
00:30:42,132 --> 00:30:45,634
I don't think
he was eating well,
733
00:30:45,635 --> 00:30:46,677
and he was sliding,
734
00:30:46,678 --> 00:30:48,763
and I couldn't do
too much about it.
735
00:30:48,764 --> 00:30:51,891
He was just getting by
and slogging through
736
00:30:51,892 --> 00:30:54,101
and watching his
character get bigger
737
00:30:54,102 --> 00:30:57,021
than ever before and
being more detached from it
738
00:30:57,022 --> 00:30:58,148
than ever before.
739
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:01,817
My very first comic convention
740
00:31:01,818 --> 00:31:05,154
was the 1973 New York City
741
00:31:05,155 --> 00:31:08,699
July 4th Com Convention
at the Commodore Hotel,
742
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:10,993
and the keynote speaker
of that convention
743
00:31:10,994 --> 00:31:13,704
was Bob Kane, and
I was a Batman fan!
744
00:31:13,705 --> 00:31:16,040
And I remember
standing in the back
745
00:31:16,041 --> 00:31:18,501
of this packed ballroom
746
00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:20,211
where Bob Kane
was a little speck
747
00:31:20,212 --> 00:31:22,171
in the distance on the stage.
748
00:31:22,172 --> 00:31:24,673
But what do I remember hearing?
749
00:31:24,674 --> 00:31:26,717
"I created Batman,
I created Robin,
750
00:31:26,718 --> 00:31:28,719
I created the Joker,
I created the..."
751
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,848
"I, I, I, I, I..."
that's what I remember.
752
00:31:32,849 --> 00:31:35,976
And the thing is is that
we didn't know at the time,
753
00:31:35,977 --> 00:31:37,895
but Bill Finger was still alive
754
00:31:37,896 --> 00:31:41,357
in the summer of '73,
probably on his last legs.
755
00:31:41,358 --> 00:31:44,568
So what really upsets
me about Bob Kane
756
00:31:44,569 --> 00:31:47,571
is that right up until
the time Bill Finger died,
757
00:31:47,572 --> 00:31:50,699
his friend and partner
who co-created Batman,
758
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:53,744
that gave Bob Kane a
living and notoriety
759
00:31:53,745 --> 00:31:55,037
for the rest of his life,
760
00:31:55,038 --> 00:31:59,875
he allowed to die
penniless and unknown.
761
00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:01,627
And for that, there
is no forgiveness
762
00:32:01,628 --> 00:32:04,255
for Bob Kane.
763
00:32:04,256 --> 00:32:07,133
In the early '70s,
Bill did begin to write
764
00:32:07,134 --> 00:32:08,717
for comics again and for DC.
765
00:32:08,718 --> 00:32:10,469
He began to
write mystery stories,
766
00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:13,222
and he had two
stories due on a Friday,
767
00:32:13,223 --> 00:32:15,599
he turned in only
one and went home,
768
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,561
presumably to finish
the second one.
769
00:32:18,562 --> 00:32:22,231
This was January 18th, 1974.
770
00:32:22,232 --> 00:32:24,400
He was living alone in Manhattan
771
00:32:24,401 --> 00:32:25,609
in a small apartment
772
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:27,737
in the same building as Charles.
773
00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:32,074
On this particular day,
I had not heard from Bill
774
00:32:32,075 --> 00:32:34,910
for like a couple of days,
775
00:32:34,911 --> 00:32:38,747
and I'm carrying a duplicate key
776
00:32:38,748 --> 00:32:41,667
for his apartment.
777
00:32:41,668 --> 00:32:44,211
I went to the apartment,
778
00:32:44,212 --> 00:32:46,213
and he was behind in his rent.
779
00:32:46,214 --> 00:32:50,593
The landlord had eviction
notices on his door.
780
00:32:50,594 --> 00:32:53,012
I used my key and went in.
781
00:32:53,013 --> 00:32:55,139
♪
782
00:32:55,140 --> 00:32:58,267
I walked up to him.
783
00:32:58,268 --> 00:33:02,479
He had a blanket like
pulled up to about here.
784
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,107
I pulled it down.
785
00:33:05,108 --> 00:33:07,985
Looked, looked,
and looked, you know.
786
00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:10,446
No movement, nothing, you know?
787
00:33:10,447 --> 00:33:14,617
And I reached down,
shook his shoulder.
788
00:33:14,618 --> 00:33:17,328
Nothing.
789
00:33:17,329 --> 00:33:20,915
Poor Bill had died alone
790
00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:24,210
with his little
television set going on.
791
00:33:24,211 --> 00:33:26,128
I thought, you know, what a...
792
00:33:26,129 --> 00:33:30,174
kind of a sad little end.
793
00:33:30,175 --> 00:33:34,345
♪
794
00:33:34,346 --> 00:33:37,890
The world has lost a
very interesting guy.
795
00:33:37,891 --> 00:33:42,102
♪
796
00:33:42,103 --> 00:33:43,979
So when I asked Charles
797
00:33:43,980 --> 00:33:46,148
"What happened to
Bill after he died?"
798
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:48,400
Charles said,
"Marc, I don't think
799
00:33:48,401 --> 00:33:51,362
we want to
talk about that."
800
00:33:51,363 --> 00:33:54,198
And I said, "You're
probably right.
801
00:33:54,199 --> 00:33:57,243
I know it's difficult,
but I do have to ask."
802
00:33:57,244 --> 00:33:58,661
And then Charles
said that he thought
803
00:33:58,662 --> 00:34:02,873
that Bill was buried
in a potter's field.
804
00:34:02,874 --> 00:34:06,502
It's a graveyard
of unmarked graves.
805
00:34:06,503 --> 00:34:07,628
People that don't have someone
806
00:34:07,629 --> 00:34:09,338
to take care of them.
807
00:34:09,339 --> 00:34:12,174
Homeless people... I
mean, it's desperately,
808
00:34:12,175 --> 00:34:14,843
desperately sad.
809
00:34:14,844 --> 00:34:17,388
The medical
examiner report says,
810
00:34:17,389 --> 00:34:21,392
"natural causes,
no family, no history,"
811
00:34:21,393 --> 00:34:22,768
which of course was referring
812
00:34:22,769 --> 00:34:25,020
to his medical history,
813
00:34:25,021 --> 00:34:28,107
but when you read
that now, textually,
814
00:34:28,108 --> 00:34:30,693
it's eerie because
this medical examiner
815
00:34:30,694 --> 00:34:34,613
had no idea the immensely
significant history
816
00:34:34,614 --> 00:34:37,157
that this man had.
817
00:34:37,158 --> 00:34:39,576
So when I heard
that, I just thought,
818
00:34:39,577 --> 00:34:40,786
you know, just on a human level
819
00:34:40,787 --> 00:34:43,414
we've got to do
something for this guy.
820
00:34:43,415 --> 00:34:45,624
There are so many
fans who clamber
821
00:34:45,625 --> 00:34:47,543
for justice for the creators.
822
00:34:47,544 --> 00:34:48,752
I think in the end it takes more
823
00:34:48,753 --> 00:34:50,838
than this amorphous
mass of fans.
824
00:34:50,839 --> 00:34:53,549
There has to be one
person who steps up
825
00:34:53,550 --> 00:34:55,342
and leads the charge.
826
00:34:55,343 --> 00:34:57,303
♪
827
00:34:57,304 --> 00:34:58,971
When I started this project,
828
00:34:58,972 --> 00:35:00,681
I was already a
published author.
829
00:35:00,682 --> 00:35:02,975
I wanted to tell
another good story.
830
00:35:02,976 --> 00:35:04,393
And then when I learned
831
00:35:04,394 --> 00:35:06,895
how much there was to
reveal about Bill's life
832
00:35:06,896 --> 00:35:10,566
and how much more we
could do on his behalf,
833
00:35:10,567 --> 00:35:14,570
it became not only
a book but a crusade.
834
00:35:14,571 --> 00:35:17,740
My goal became getting
Bill's name on Batman,
835
00:35:17,741 --> 00:35:20,868
to get this man the credit
that will never go away,
836
00:35:20,869 --> 00:35:23,579
that will hang over all of this.
837
00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:25,205
I had a couple
of people that said,
838
00:35:25,206 --> 00:35:27,708
"What you are trying
to do will never happen.
839
00:35:27,709 --> 00:35:29,752
This is a contractually
bound line
840
00:35:29,753 --> 00:35:32,713
that's been in
place for 70 years,
841
00:35:32,714 --> 00:35:34,757
so what are you
going to do about it?
842
00:35:34,758 --> 00:35:36,800
What is any one person
going to do about it?"
843
00:35:36,801 --> 00:35:39,136
And I said to myself,
"I have no idea,
844
00:35:39,137 --> 00:35:41,430
but I'm going to try."
845
00:35:41,431 --> 00:35:44,351
(wind blowing)
846
00:35:49,606 --> 00:35:52,734
Here it is, Poe Park.
847
00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:55,819
So this is Poe
Park in the Bronx.
848
00:35:55,820 --> 00:35:57,946
This is where Bill
and Bob would come
849
00:35:57,947 --> 00:35:59,531
and brainstorm
ideas for stories.
850
00:35:59,532 --> 00:36:01,408
They would sit on
park benches here
851
00:36:01,409 --> 00:36:02,868
and discuss Batman.
852
00:36:02,869 --> 00:36:04,495
I had no idea that
I would be doing
853
00:36:04,496 --> 00:36:05,788
this kind of digging.
854
00:36:05,789 --> 00:36:08,165
This is the apartment
in which Bill was living
855
00:36:08,166 --> 00:36:11,502
in 1965 when he was
interviewed by Jerry Bails.
856
00:36:11,503 --> 00:36:14,630
He's also very righteous,
and he wants to, you know,
857
00:36:14,631 --> 00:36:17,424
he wants to do
right in the world,
858
00:36:17,425 --> 00:36:18,759
and so he is driven.
859
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,136
Bill Finger was the
co-creator of Batman.
860
00:36:21,137 --> 00:36:23,764
And I am pretty sure
that he was living here
861
00:36:23,765 --> 00:36:25,182
at the moment that
he created Batman,
862
00:36:25,183 --> 00:36:27,893
so I think he was living
in one of these three units,
863
00:36:27,894 --> 00:36:28,977
and I'd love to see inside
864
00:36:28,978 --> 00:36:30,145
if you could show it.
865
00:36:30,146 --> 00:36:31,689
The parallel was not lost on me
866
00:36:31,690 --> 00:36:33,899
that Bill made
Batman a detective,
867
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,485
and I was a detective in
pursuit of Bill's legacy.
868
00:36:36,486 --> 00:36:38,195
That was part of the fun of it.
869
00:36:38,196 --> 00:36:39,822
How did you find this out?
870
00:36:39,823 --> 00:36:41,073
I did a lot of research.
871
00:36:41,074 --> 00:36:43,992
I actually went through
the New York City phone book
872
00:36:43,993 --> 00:36:48,706
every year from 1930 to
1974 looking for my guy,
873
00:36:48,707 --> 00:36:50,582
and this is where it started.
874
00:36:50,583 --> 00:36:51,959
It became addictive.
875
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,919
I felt like, if I
found this big thing
876
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,547
that wasn't known,
there's probably more.
877
00:36:56,548 --> 00:36:59,633
♪
878
00:36:59,634 --> 00:37:02,469
When I started the research,
we knew this much:
879
00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:04,304
Bill's wife was named Portia,
880
00:37:04,305 --> 00:37:07,015
they were married
sometime in the 1940s.
881
00:37:07,016 --> 00:37:08,684
I believe that their
marriage fell apart
882
00:37:08,685 --> 00:37:10,477
in the '50s.
883
00:37:10,478 --> 00:37:13,689
To try to legally
contest a credit line,
884
00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:14,982
you need an heir.
885
00:37:14,983 --> 00:37:17,526
That was my goal
was to find an heir,
886
00:37:17,527 --> 00:37:19,737
so very early in my
Bill Finger research,
887
00:37:19,738 --> 00:37:22,156
I learned that Bill
had a son named Fred.
888
00:37:22,157 --> 00:37:24,700
I was super pumped that
day because I thought
889
00:37:24,701 --> 00:37:27,077
it's going to take
me less than a day
890
00:37:27,078 --> 00:37:28,620
to find Fred Finger,
891
00:37:28,621 --> 00:37:29,872
and it took me less than a day
892
00:37:29,873 --> 00:37:32,583
to find out that Fred
was Bill's only child,
893
00:37:32,584 --> 00:37:36,628
Fred was gay, and
Fred died in 1992,
894
00:37:36,629 --> 00:37:39,757
which to me implied
that he was the end
895
00:37:39,758 --> 00:37:41,133
of the Finger family,
896
00:37:41,134 --> 00:37:42,634
that there was nobody left.
897
00:37:42,635 --> 00:37:45,262
And while I'm writing a
book to tell a good story
898
00:37:45,263 --> 00:37:46,930
and tell an important story,
899
00:37:46,931 --> 00:37:49,767
at the same time my goal
was to do what I could
900
00:37:49,768 --> 00:37:52,394
to see Bill's name
added to Batman,
901
00:37:52,395 --> 00:37:56,315
but I knew that to do that,
you need to be an heir
902
00:37:56,316 --> 00:37:57,649
and there wasn't one.
903
00:37:57,650 --> 00:38:00,068
So I was then going
to look for anybody
904
00:38:00,069 --> 00:38:03,489
who might have had some
connection to this man.
905
00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:05,491
Apparently when you are
doing detective work,
906
00:38:05,492 --> 00:38:06,825
you find yourself doing things
907
00:38:06,826 --> 00:38:08,577
that you wouldn't
expect yourself to do.
908
00:38:08,578 --> 00:38:10,871
For example, I
called every Finger
909
00:38:10,872 --> 00:38:12,915
in the phone directory,
which was 500 names
910
00:38:12,916 --> 00:38:16,376
asking if they were
related to Bill Finger.
911
00:38:16,377 --> 00:38:18,086
Not a one was.
912
00:38:18,087 --> 00:38:20,839
I staked out the apartment
building that Portia,
913
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,133
Bill's first wife, lived
in at the end of her life.
914
00:38:23,134 --> 00:38:24,551
I figured there
could still be people
915
00:38:24,552 --> 00:38:26,261
in the building who knew her.
916
00:38:26,262 --> 00:38:27,888
Next thing I know, I'm
sitting in an apartment
917
00:38:27,889 --> 00:38:30,015
with two lovely
women in their 70s
918
00:38:30,016 --> 00:38:32,434
who are in their nightgowns
at 6 o'clock at night
919
00:38:32,435 --> 00:38:35,229
telling me stories about Portia.
920
00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:36,939
When I didn't know
how to reach people
921
00:38:36,940 --> 00:38:39,942
that knew Fred, I posted fliers
922
00:38:39,943 --> 00:38:41,151
in community centers
923
00:38:41,152 --> 00:38:42,611
targeting the gay
and lesbian community
924
00:38:42,612 --> 00:38:44,863
saying, "Does anybody
remember Fred Finger?"
925
00:38:44,864 --> 00:38:45,864
It was actually a flier
926
00:38:45,865 --> 00:38:46,907
with the little
pull-off things,
927
00:38:46,908 --> 00:38:49,701
you know, "I know Fred Finger"
928
00:38:49,702 --> 00:38:51,829
with my phone number.
929
00:38:51,830 --> 00:38:52,955
Yeah, it's crazy.
930
00:38:52,956 --> 00:38:55,749
Bill Finger was a charming guy,
931
00:38:55,750 --> 00:38:59,419
but he was not, I
think, a forceful guy.
932
00:38:59,420 --> 00:39:01,171
He was making his own way,
933
00:39:01,172 --> 00:39:03,966
and it was kind of permanently
934
00:39:03,967 --> 00:39:06,969
on the outside looking in a bit.
935
00:39:06,970 --> 00:39:09,304
At some point, Charles said
936
00:39:09,305 --> 00:39:10,764
that Bill and Portia divorced
937
00:39:10,765 --> 00:39:11,974
and Bill was
dating other people,
938
00:39:11,975 --> 00:39:14,351
and in the late '60s,
he had a lady friend
939
00:39:14,352 --> 00:39:16,645
named Edith Simmons.
940
00:39:16,646 --> 00:39:19,273
That was what Charles
said, "a lady friend."
941
00:39:19,274 --> 00:39:20,315
I discovered that Edith
942
00:39:20,316 --> 00:39:22,651
was more than just
Bill's lady friend,
943
00:39:22,652 --> 00:39:24,278
she was his second wife.
944
00:39:24,279 --> 00:39:27,823
Someone that nobody in
comics had ever heard of.
945
00:39:27,824 --> 00:39:33,036
He was a very amiable, pleasant,
946
00:39:33,037 --> 00:39:36,540
and easy-going man.
947
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:39,877
He had a good sense of humor,
948
00:39:39,878 --> 00:39:41,795
he... do you want
me to tell you
949
00:39:41,796 --> 00:39:44,548
about the things he
was interested in?
950
00:39:44,549 --> 00:39:47,217
She was, along with Charles,
951
00:39:47,218 --> 00:39:49,636
the two biggest finds
up until that point...
952
00:39:49,637 --> 00:39:51,305
the two people that I thought
953
00:39:51,306 --> 00:39:52,848
would ensure that this was
954
00:39:52,849 --> 00:39:54,474
the first real
version of Bill Finger
955
00:39:54,475 --> 00:39:56,185
that we would get to know.
956
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,691
He was interested
in a lot of things.
957
00:40:02,692 --> 00:40:05,861
He loved ballet, for
instance, I loved it.
958
00:40:05,862 --> 00:40:07,946
We went together.
959
00:40:07,947 --> 00:40:11,283
He was very knowledgeable
about theater,
960
00:40:11,284 --> 00:40:13,201
about movies.
961
00:40:13,202 --> 00:40:15,245
He was proud of being a very,
962
00:40:15,246 --> 00:40:18,081
very good comic book writer.
963
00:40:18,082 --> 00:40:20,208
There are several heroes,
964
00:40:20,209 --> 00:40:22,127
in my opinion, in this story.
965
00:40:22,128 --> 00:40:24,379
When Lyn, his second wife,
966
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:25,881
learned that they were making
967
00:40:25,882 --> 00:40:27,174
a big budget Batman movie,
968
00:40:27,175 --> 00:40:30,427
which would become Tim
Burton's 1989 Batman movie,
969
00:40:30,428 --> 00:40:34,056
she tried to get Bill
credit in that movie.
970
00:40:34,057 --> 00:40:35,933
This time it is
to the big screen.
971
00:40:35,934 --> 00:40:37,851
Warner Brothers
is spending millions
972
00:40:37,852 --> 00:40:39,269
to bring millionaire Bruce Wayne
973
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:41,271
and his alter ego to life.
974
00:40:41,272 --> 00:40:42,940
Is this a gamble for the studio?
975
00:40:42,941 --> 00:40:44,274
Will Batman pay off?
976
00:40:44,275 --> 00:40:45,776
Will there be bat hysteria?
977
00:40:45,777 --> 00:40:48,403
When the first Batman
movie was coming out,
978
00:40:48,404 --> 00:40:51,198
my mother got very concerned
979
00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:54,368
that Bill was getting
no credit for it.
980
00:40:54,369 --> 00:40:56,370
Estimates are that
the final price tag
981
00:40:56,371 --> 00:40:57,829
for the Warner Brothers movie
982
00:40:57,830 --> 00:41:01,124
will be in the 30 to
50 million dollar range.
983
00:41:01,125 --> 00:41:03,752
I thought he should
get some credit
984
00:41:03,753 --> 00:41:05,921
on the screen,
985
00:41:05,922 --> 00:41:10,759
and I tried to get in
touch with the managers
986
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,845
or whoever it was to tell them
987
00:41:13,846 --> 00:41:16,431
that Bill should get credit.
988
00:41:16,432 --> 00:41:17,933
We weren't interested in suing,
989
00:41:17,934 --> 00:41:20,018
because we weren't
seeking money,
990
00:41:20,019 --> 00:41:23,188
we were just seeking
credit for Bill.
991
00:41:23,189 --> 00:41:24,690
I really dealt with
the legal department
992
00:41:24,691 --> 00:41:26,066
a couple of times.
993
00:41:26,067 --> 00:41:27,317
They weren't disagreeing
994
00:41:27,318 --> 00:41:29,277
with Bill's
co-creating Batman,
995
00:41:29,278 --> 00:41:31,321
there was no disagreement there.
996
00:41:31,322 --> 00:41:32,864
They just didn't
want to get involved
997
00:41:32,865 --> 00:41:35,575
in something they
didn't have to do
998
00:41:35,576 --> 00:41:39,830
that might open up some
liability issues for them.
999
00:41:39,831 --> 00:41:43,250
They, I would say,
politely declined.
1000
00:41:43,251 --> 00:41:45,544
That long-awaited
41 million dollar film,
1001
00:41:45,545 --> 00:41:48,463
Batman, got an old-fashioned
kickoff last night
1002
00:41:48,464 --> 00:41:50,132
when it premiered
in Los Angeles.
1003
00:41:50,133 --> 00:41:52,634
Thousands of fans, many
of whom waited all day
1004
00:41:52,635 --> 00:41:54,594
outside the theater in Westwood,
1005
00:41:54,595 --> 00:41:56,096
welcomed the scores of stars
1006
00:41:56,097 --> 00:41:57,681
who turned out for the opening.
1007
00:41:57,682 --> 00:42:00,475
So of course the Batman
movie was a juggernaut.
1008
00:42:00,476 --> 00:42:02,352
Batman owned 1989.
1009
00:42:02,353 --> 00:42:04,563
Are all those
people waiting now?
1010
00:42:04,564 --> 00:42:05,647
You're kidding!
1011
00:42:05,648 --> 00:42:08,525
It's Batmania this summer.
1012
00:42:08,526 --> 00:42:10,235
Everyone wants
to see this movie.
1013
00:42:10,236 --> 00:42:13,113
That movie was stratospheric.
1014
00:42:13,114 --> 00:42:14,322
I've been reading comic books
1015
00:42:14,323 --> 00:42:15,657
since I was six years old.
1016
00:42:15,658 --> 00:42:17,325
They couldn't have done
this movie any better.
1017
00:42:17,326 --> 00:42:19,369
Day by day, there are
more and more signals
1018
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:21,038
that a phenomenon is emerging.
1019
00:42:21,039 --> 00:42:23,749
There is even a
1-800-BATMAN number
1020
00:42:23,750 --> 00:42:26,501
in here to get your
merchandise to you faster.
1021
00:42:26,502 --> 00:42:28,712
1989 is when Batman moved
1022
00:42:28,713 --> 00:42:30,672
from just another superhero
1023
00:42:30,673 --> 00:42:34,426
to a fictional character
that everybody knows.
1024
00:42:34,427 --> 00:42:37,179
At our first Batman
premiere in 1989,
1025
00:42:37,180 --> 00:42:40,640
Bob showed up in like
this black velour bat cape.
1026
00:42:40,641 --> 00:42:42,851
Bob was fun, and
Bob was a showman.
1027
00:42:42,852 --> 00:42:46,355
He loved the attention, he
reveled in the attention.
1028
00:42:48,983 --> 00:42:51,651
My autobiography
came out, Batman & Me.
1029
00:42:51,652 --> 00:42:53,904
At the height of the
movie of Batman One,
1030
00:42:53,905 --> 00:42:56,615
it sold 250,000 copies.
1031
00:42:56,616 --> 00:42:58,075
That's the cover of me.
1032
00:42:58,076 --> 00:43:01,536
That's the first
Batman I drew in 1939.
1033
00:43:01,537 --> 00:43:04,539
♪
1034
00:43:04,540 --> 00:43:06,958
Doing the book was interesting.
1035
00:43:06,959 --> 00:43:08,251
I helped design the book
1036
00:43:08,252 --> 00:43:10,796
and rewrote a lot of the book
1037
00:43:10,797 --> 00:43:12,923
based on a lot of
interviewing I did with him.
1038
00:43:12,924 --> 00:43:15,051
I interviewed him for hours.
1039
00:43:23,476 --> 00:43:26,561
For me, the most significant
passage is on page 44,
1040
00:43:26,562 --> 00:43:29,106
when Bob writes, "Now
that my longtime friend
1041
00:43:29,107 --> 00:43:30,732
and collaborator is gone,
1042
00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:32,526
I must admit that
Bill never received
1043
00:43:32,527 --> 00:43:34,986
the fame and
recognition he deserved.
1044
00:43:34,987 --> 00:43:36,739
He was an unsung hero."
1045
00:43:43,871 --> 00:43:45,330
"I often tell my wife,
1046
00:43:45,331 --> 00:43:48,667
if I could go back
15 years before he died,
1047
00:43:48,668 --> 00:43:50,460
I would like to say, quote,
1048
00:43:50,461 --> 00:43:51,920
'I'll put your name on it now.
1049
00:43:51,921 --> 00:43:53,463
You deserve it.'"
1050
00:43:53,464 --> 00:43:54,881
I remember when I read that,
1051
00:43:54,882 --> 00:43:56,258
and several other people told me
1052
00:43:56,259 --> 00:43:57,509
they had similar reactions.
1053
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:58,802
They were just
dumbstruck, I mean,
1054
00:43:58,803 --> 00:44:00,137
it was just like...
it's one of those things
1055
00:44:00,138 --> 00:44:02,013
that'll just stop you
when you're reading it
1056
00:44:02,014 --> 00:44:04,182
if you know anything
about the situation
1057
00:44:04,183 --> 00:44:07,519
because you are looking
at a book written...
1058
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,605
allegedly written...
by the person
1059
00:44:10,606 --> 00:44:12,566
who is totally responsible,
1060
00:44:12,567 --> 00:44:14,109
or almost totally responsible,
1061
00:44:14,110 --> 00:44:16,111
for the fact that
poor Bill Finger
1062
00:44:16,112 --> 00:44:18,614
never got the credit
he deserved for Batman.
1063
00:44:29,125 --> 00:44:32,127
He did have regrets at the end
1064
00:44:32,128 --> 00:44:34,714
about Bill not getting credit.
1065
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:40,427
Never sufficient
regret to fix it.
1066
00:44:40,428 --> 00:44:43,263
I don't think he would've
ever put Bill's name
1067
00:44:43,264 --> 00:44:46,474
on the strip at that time.
1068
00:44:46,475 --> 00:44:50,437
It opens a legal can of worms
1069
00:44:50,438 --> 00:44:51,771
when he told me that,
1070
00:44:51,772 --> 00:44:53,481
which he wouldn't
have wanted to get into,
1071
00:44:53,482 --> 00:44:54,608
because then it wouldn't...
1072
00:44:54,609 --> 00:44:57,987
it would be not
only credit but money.
1073
00:44:59,697 --> 00:45:01,656
The other especially
notable thing
1074
00:45:01,657 --> 00:45:05,994
about Bob's book is
this series of sketches,
1075
00:45:05,995 --> 00:45:09,707
which are dated
January 17th, 1934.
1076
00:45:20,635 --> 00:45:22,969
- Yeah.
- He has these drawings
1077
00:45:22,970 --> 00:45:25,931
that he says were
stashed away as a kid
1078
00:45:25,932 --> 00:45:27,349
and wasn't sure
whether to make it
1079
00:45:27,350 --> 00:45:29,184
into a bird or a bat,
1080
00:45:29,185 --> 00:45:31,853
and he said that
when he was creating
1081
00:45:31,854 --> 00:45:35,023
this new superhero, he
remembered these drawings
1082
00:45:35,024 --> 00:45:37,984
he had made in 1934
in this trunk,
1083
00:45:37,985 --> 00:45:39,110
and he went to get them
1084
00:45:39,111 --> 00:45:40,403
and this gave him
the inspiration
1085
00:45:40,404 --> 00:45:43,741
for making a
character into a bat.
1086
00:45:55,503 --> 00:45:56,670
Wow.
1087
00:45:56,671 --> 00:45:58,713
I don't think that's
ever been corroborated
1088
00:45:58,714 --> 00:46:01,007
that that's an
actual 1934 document.
1089
00:46:01,008 --> 00:46:02,509
I mean, somebody should do
1090
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:04,552
a Shroud of Turin investigation
1091
00:46:04,553 --> 00:46:07,305
on those 1934 sketches.
1092
00:46:07,306 --> 00:46:09,432
I mean, right away,
the date alone,
1093
00:46:09,433 --> 00:46:11,017
it's like you're telling me
1094
00:46:11,018 --> 00:46:13,728
that at the dawn of
the comic book itself,
1095
00:46:13,729 --> 00:46:16,398
which was created in 1933,
1096
00:46:16,399 --> 00:46:20,944
before there were
superheroes, obviously,
1097
00:46:20,945 --> 00:46:22,570
you're telling me
that you created
1098
00:46:22,571 --> 00:46:24,906
a Batman-like
character, Bob Kane.
1099
00:46:24,907 --> 00:46:28,743
Looking at the
drawing from 1934,
1100
00:46:28,744 --> 00:46:31,037
he's wearing a cowl,
1101
00:46:31,038 --> 00:46:34,082
and his original Batman
drawing didn't have a cowl.
1102
00:46:34,083 --> 00:46:37,419
It also... there's
a bat emblem on it.
1103
00:46:37,420 --> 00:46:40,755
The bat emblem was
suggested by Finger.
1104
00:46:40,756 --> 00:46:42,924
These are not
haphazard sketches.
1105
00:46:42,925 --> 00:46:44,759
These are something put together
1106
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,721
by someone retrospectively
trying to talk about
1107
00:46:47,722 --> 00:46:49,515
how they came up
with this character.
1108
00:47:02,069 --> 00:47:05,030
In this case, for a man to say,
1109
00:47:05,031 --> 00:47:06,448
"Bill created a costume,
1110
00:47:06,449 --> 00:47:08,116
but here's my drawing
of the same costume
1111
00:47:08,117 --> 00:47:10,577
five years before."
1112
00:47:10,578 --> 00:47:11,786
There's just no
way to look at that
1113
00:47:11,787 --> 00:47:15,457
and not see... see
the scam going on,
1114
00:47:15,458 --> 00:47:17,959
see a man who's
desperately trying
1115
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,211
to hold onto
something that he knows
1116
00:47:20,212 --> 00:47:22,255
is not rightfully his.
1117
00:47:22,256 --> 00:47:24,132
At some point, if
you tell the story
1118
00:47:24,133 --> 00:47:26,509
enough to yourself,
then it just...
1119
00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:29,513
your perception
is now your reality.
1120
00:47:30,973 --> 00:47:31,973
I do think that over time,
1121
00:47:31,974 --> 00:47:33,308
Bob started to feel differently
1122
00:47:33,309 --> 00:47:34,642
than he felt
when he was younger,
1123
00:47:34,643 --> 00:47:36,311
but he probably felt
trapped by the myth
1124
00:47:36,312 --> 00:47:38,313
of Bob Kane, which he created,
1125
00:47:38,314 --> 00:47:40,231
and I think he probably thought,
1126
00:47:40,232 --> 00:47:42,609
"I'm going to look much
worse if I come clean now..."
1127
00:47:42,610 --> 00:47:44,027
even if maybe his
conscience was saying
1128
00:47:44,028 --> 00:47:46,029
it would be the right...
better thing to do,
1129
00:47:46,030 --> 00:47:47,197
"...than if I just...
Let's see how long
1130
00:47:47,198 --> 00:47:48,323
I can ride this out.
1131
00:47:48,324 --> 00:47:50,283
Maybe I can get to the grave
1132
00:47:50,284 --> 00:47:52,994
with no one really
challenging me on this."
1133
00:47:52,995 --> 00:47:55,205
One day, when I'm 120 or so,
1134
00:47:55,206 --> 00:47:57,832
I'll look down from
the bat cave in the sky
1135
00:47:57,833 --> 00:48:00,377
at my little creation
that goes on and on and on,
1136
00:48:00,378 --> 00:48:02,587
and I'll just say,
"Hey, Warner Brothers
1137
00:48:02,588 --> 00:48:04,005
and Leonardo, just send me
1138
00:48:04,006 --> 00:48:06,007
the residuals in the sky.
1139
00:48:06,008 --> 00:48:07,050
I'll give you my address,
1140
00:48:07,051 --> 00:48:10,845
it's up there
where the angels are."
1141
00:48:10,846 --> 00:48:12,514
Bob died in 1998.
1142
00:48:12,515 --> 00:48:14,307
He got to live
through seeing Batman
1143
00:48:14,308 --> 00:48:16,684
become a worldwide phenomenon,
1144
00:48:16,685 --> 00:48:19,938
and had a proper
obituary in newspapers.
1145
00:48:19,939 --> 00:48:23,233
He was mentioned
on nightly news.
1146
00:48:23,234 --> 00:48:24,442
He went on to have a star
1147
00:48:24,443 --> 00:48:27,278
on the Hollywood Walk
of Fame many years later.
1148
00:48:27,279 --> 00:48:31,366
Bill died in 1974
with no obituary,
1149
00:48:31,367 --> 00:48:34,370
no funeral, no gravestone...
1150
00:48:35,830 --> 00:48:38,289
virtually unrecognized.
1151
00:48:38,290 --> 00:48:43,545
And Bob was remembered
as the creator of Batman.
1152
00:48:43,546 --> 00:48:45,130
His gravestone
says, "God bestowed
1153
00:48:45,131 --> 00:48:47,048
a dream upon Bob Kane.
1154
00:48:47,049 --> 00:48:48,675
Blessed with divine inspiration
1155
00:48:48,676 --> 00:48:50,301
and a rich imagination,
1156
00:48:50,302 --> 00:48:53,888
Bob created a legacy
known as BATMAN.
1157
00:48:53,889 --> 00:48:55,557
Bob Kane, Bruce Wayne, Batman,
1158
00:48:55,558 --> 00:48:57,559
they are one and the same.
1159
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,853
Bob infused his dual
identity character
1160
00:48:59,854 --> 00:49:03,731
with his own attributes:
goodness, kindness,
1161
00:49:03,732 --> 00:49:06,651
compassion, sensitivity,
generosity..."
1162
00:49:06,652 --> 00:49:08,403
I didn't know him,
and I'm very careful
1163
00:49:08,404 --> 00:49:09,571
to emphasize that.
1164
00:49:09,572 --> 00:49:12,407
I don't know what
he was like as a son
1165
00:49:12,408 --> 00:49:14,242
or a husband or a father,
1166
00:49:14,243 --> 00:49:15,910
and I want to think the best.
1167
00:49:15,911 --> 00:49:17,954
And, you know, he
had a right to be proud
1168
00:49:17,955 --> 00:49:20,999
of his role in Batman,
but professionally,
1169
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,333
he was not Bruce Wayne.
1170
00:49:22,334 --> 00:49:25,004
He was not what it
says on his gravestone.
1171
00:49:27,756 --> 00:49:30,009
(birds chirping)
1172
00:49:31,677 --> 00:49:34,637
Every child grows
up with parents
1173
00:49:34,638 --> 00:49:36,973
whose jobs become
part of their...
1174
00:49:36,974 --> 00:49:38,224
the texture of their lives,
1175
00:49:38,225 --> 00:49:39,809
and unfortunately for my kids,
1176
00:49:39,810 --> 00:49:42,854
that was Bill Finger,
so my kids knew more
1177
00:49:42,855 --> 00:49:44,439
about Bill Finger
at a very young age
1178
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,983
than some hardcore
Batman fans have known
1179
00:49:46,984 --> 00:49:49,235
at the peak of their knowledge.
1180
00:49:49,236 --> 00:49:52,906
What about your daddy?
1181
00:49:52,907 --> 00:49:54,365
You're my daddy!
1182
00:49:54,366 --> 00:49:57,577
- What's my name?
- Marc Tyler.
1183
00:49:57,578 --> 00:50:00,413
And what do I do all day?
1184
00:50:00,414 --> 00:50:04,042
- Work!
- What's my job?
1185
00:50:04,043 --> 00:50:06,462
Bill Finger.
1186
00:50:07,671 --> 00:50:09,589
What do I do?
1187
00:50:09,590 --> 00:50:12,842
- Bill Finger.
- But what does that mean?
1188
00:50:12,843 --> 00:50:15,637
Bill Finger.
1189
00:50:15,638 --> 00:50:18,139
- Who's Bill Finger?
- Bill Finger.
1190
00:50:18,140 --> 00:50:19,807
Is that my friend?
1191
00:50:19,808 --> 00:50:21,809
Yes!
1192
00:50:21,810 --> 00:50:24,103
My daughter, for
all intents, grew up
1193
00:50:24,104 --> 00:50:27,148
with Bill Finger as a part
of the extended family.
1194
00:50:27,149 --> 00:50:30,860
My wife was very patient.
1195
00:50:30,861 --> 00:50:32,111
We were young and struggling,
1196
00:50:32,112 --> 00:50:34,739
and I was putting in a lot
of time for this project
1197
00:50:34,740 --> 00:50:36,866
because I did get
consumed by this,
1198
00:50:36,867 --> 00:50:38,952
and not to the point
that I was not showing up
1199
00:50:38,953 --> 00:50:40,453
for family events or forgetting
1200
00:50:40,454 --> 00:50:41,621
to put my shoes on,
1201
00:50:41,622 --> 00:50:45,750
but I was really
very focused on this.
1202
00:50:45,751 --> 00:50:47,335
Excuse me, Batman!
1203
00:50:47,336 --> 00:50:49,087
Can I ask you a
couple questions?
1204
00:50:49,088 --> 00:50:51,005
- Where's Batman from?
- Gotham City.
1205
00:50:51,006 --> 00:50:52,882
And what's his real name?
1206
00:50:52,883 --> 00:50:54,175
Bruce Wayne.
1207
00:50:54,176 --> 00:50:58,054
- And who created him?
- Bob Kane.
1208
00:50:58,055 --> 00:50:59,347
Just Bob Kane?
1209
00:50:59,348 --> 00:51:01,391
When I see people
wearing Batman shirts
1210
00:51:01,392 --> 00:51:04,102
or Batman clothes,
which I do all the time,
1211
00:51:04,103 --> 00:51:05,853
yeah, I do smile
to myself and think,
1212
00:51:05,854 --> 00:51:07,146
"Should I stop
that guy and ask him
1213
00:51:07,147 --> 00:51:08,481
if he knows who
Bill Finger is?"
1214
00:51:08,482 --> 00:51:10,441
- Who's Dick Grayson?
- Dick Grayson...
1215
00:51:10,442 --> 00:51:12,527
He's the first Robin,
also Nightwing.
1216
00:51:12,528 --> 00:51:13,820
Who's Bill Finger?
1217
00:51:13,821 --> 00:51:15,113
Bill Finger?
1218
00:51:15,114 --> 00:51:16,281
Him I don't know.
1219
00:51:16,282 --> 00:51:17,323
The story is so good,
1220
00:51:17,324 --> 00:51:18,616
anyone wearing a Batman shirt
1221
00:51:18,617 --> 00:51:19,577
would want to know it.
1222
00:51:19,578 --> 00:51:21,619
I have a few
Batman T-shirts left
1223
00:51:21,620 --> 00:51:22,704
that I would like to give out.
1224
00:51:22,705 --> 00:51:23,997
- Does anybody want one?
- Sure!
1225
00:51:23,998 --> 00:51:25,582
All right.
1226
00:51:25,583 --> 00:51:26,708
They probably
looked at those shirts
1227
00:51:26,709 --> 00:51:28,209
and said, "Wait,
this isn't Batman.
1228
00:51:28,210 --> 00:51:30,044
This is Bill Finger...
Who's that?"
1229
00:51:30,045 --> 00:51:31,462
It just got me thinking, well,
1230
00:51:31,463 --> 00:51:33,214
the only way this
would be possible
1231
00:51:33,215 --> 00:51:36,259
is if by some miracle
this book can be a part
1232
00:51:36,260 --> 00:51:38,761
of the larger
groundswell of support
1233
00:51:38,762 --> 00:51:40,722
that might be able
to overturn the idea
1234
00:51:40,723 --> 00:51:43,349
that you need to be an
heir to fight for credit.
1235
00:51:43,350 --> 00:51:45,226
Maybe there could be
enough public support
1236
00:51:45,227 --> 00:51:46,978
to say there's enough proof
1237
00:51:46,979 --> 00:51:48,396
that this person was involved
1238
00:51:48,397 --> 00:51:50,481
that we don't need an
heir to make this right,
1239
00:51:50,482 --> 00:51:52,734
to make this whole again.
1240
00:51:52,735 --> 00:51:53,985
I mean, maybe that can happen,
1241
00:51:53,986 --> 00:51:55,529
I mean, laws get
overturned, right?
1242
00:51:57,740 --> 00:51:58,948
When I started this research,
1243
00:51:58,949 --> 00:52:01,909
we knew just about
zip about Bill's family
1244
00:52:01,910 --> 00:52:03,077
with the exception of the fact
1245
00:52:03,078 --> 00:52:04,912
that he had a son named Fred.
1246
00:52:04,913 --> 00:52:07,540
So I learned that
Fred was a chef,
1247
00:52:07,541 --> 00:52:09,250
and I know that he
had spent some time
1248
00:52:09,251 --> 00:52:12,128
on the west coast,
and it also turned out
1249
00:52:12,129 --> 00:52:13,755
that Fred had developed AIDS
1250
00:52:13,756 --> 00:52:15,798
and died in 1992.
1251
00:52:15,799 --> 00:52:19,719
He was the last surviving
heir of Bill Finger.
1252
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,597
So my next approach was
to try to find people
1253
00:52:22,598 --> 00:52:24,432
on his first wife's side.
1254
00:52:24,433 --> 00:52:26,768
So her name was Portia,
and I decided to try
1255
00:52:26,769 --> 00:52:29,437
to look through the
New York Times obituaries.
1256
00:52:29,438 --> 00:52:31,648
♪
1257
00:52:31,649 --> 00:52:34,567
Prior to 1981 if you get a hit,
1258
00:52:34,568 --> 00:52:36,486
you don't bring
up the actual obit,
1259
00:52:36,487 --> 00:52:39,656
you bring up the whole page
where that obit appears.
1260
00:52:39,657 --> 00:52:42,033
So I did this for hours,
and I eventually found
1261
00:52:42,034 --> 00:52:44,952
the obituary for
Portia's mother,
1262
00:52:44,953 --> 00:52:46,579
which means Bill's
mother-in-law,
1263
00:52:46,580 --> 00:52:48,748
and in that obituary
there were three names.
1264
00:52:48,749 --> 00:52:51,417
Fred, Bill's son, which
I already knew, of course,
1265
00:52:51,418 --> 00:52:56,005
and two of Fred's cousins,
Judy and Eric Flam.
1266
00:52:56,006 --> 00:52:58,633
So I searched them,
and it was at probably
1267
00:52:58,634 --> 00:53:01,552
about 11 o'clock at
night on the east coast.
1268
00:53:01,553 --> 00:53:03,721
Judy was in Massachusetts,
too late to call her,
1269
00:53:03,722 --> 00:53:06,683
as excited as I was,
but Eric was in Arizona,
1270
00:53:06,684 --> 00:53:09,102
so I called him right then.
1271
00:53:09,103 --> 00:53:11,813
And when I called Eric,
I said, "I'm a writer,
1272
00:53:11,814 --> 00:53:12,855
and I'm working on a project
1273
00:53:12,856 --> 00:53:15,316
about a writer
named Bill Finger."
1274
00:53:15,317 --> 00:53:17,276
And he said,
"What did you say?"
1275
00:53:17,277 --> 00:53:18,820
And I said, "Bill Finger,"
1276
00:53:18,821 --> 00:53:20,697
and he put the
phone to the side,
1277
00:53:20,698 --> 00:53:22,990
and he called to
his wife and said,
1278
00:53:22,991 --> 00:53:24,283
"This guy's calling
about Bill Finger!
1279
00:53:24,284 --> 00:53:25,451
Uncle Bill, no one's ever called
1280
00:53:25,452 --> 00:53:26,661
about Uncle Bill before!"
1281
00:53:26,662 --> 00:53:27,829
And then he came back
on the phone and said,
1282
00:53:27,830 --> 00:53:29,080
"Well, I don't know much.
1283
00:53:29,081 --> 00:53:30,873
My sister Judy would know more,
1284
00:53:30,874 --> 00:53:32,542
you can call her tomorrow,
1285
00:53:32,543 --> 00:53:33,918
but I think what
you really should do
1286
00:53:33,919 --> 00:53:35,670
is talk to Bill's
granddaughter."
1287
00:53:35,671 --> 00:53:39,507
And I said, "But Bill
doesn't have a granddaughter!
1288
00:53:39,508 --> 00:53:40,591
He said, "No, but he does,"
1289
00:53:40,592 --> 00:53:43,010
and I said, "Well,
he had only one child,
1290
00:53:43,011 --> 00:53:44,762
Fred, who was gay,
and that was it,"
1291
00:53:44,763 --> 00:53:46,514
as if I would know
better than the family.
1292
00:53:46,515 --> 00:53:48,182
And Eric said, "That is true,
1293
00:53:48,183 --> 00:53:49,517
he did have a son
Fred who was gay,
1294
00:53:49,518 --> 00:53:52,812
but Fred had a daughter."
1295
00:53:52,813 --> 00:53:54,480
When I first heard those words,
1296
00:53:54,481 --> 00:53:57,525
"You should look for
Bill's granddaughter,"
1297
00:53:57,526 --> 00:54:00,528
I feel like I saw
a movie marquee,
1298
00:54:00,529 --> 00:54:03,281
and it said,
"The Heir to Batman."
1299
00:54:03,282 --> 00:54:05,158
♪
1300
00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:07,994
And it made me feel
like this might be
1301
00:54:07,995 --> 00:54:12,206
a bigger story than
anybody realized.
1302
00:54:12,207 --> 00:54:14,667
The next day, I spoke with Judy.
1303
00:54:14,668 --> 00:54:15,877
Judy was the one who told me
1304
00:54:15,878 --> 00:54:17,628
that her name was Athena.
1305
00:54:17,629 --> 00:54:18,671
The best she
could do was give me
1306
00:54:18,672 --> 00:54:22,508
her last known state, Florida,
1307
00:54:22,509 --> 00:54:23,718
so I was back to square one,
1308
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:27,263
looking for an heir that
we did not know existed.
1309
00:54:27,264 --> 00:54:29,015
I did not find an Athena Finger
1310
00:54:29,016 --> 00:54:30,057
in the Florida directory,
1311
00:54:30,058 --> 00:54:33,102
so I wasn't even sure
that that was accurate,
1312
00:54:33,103 --> 00:54:34,896
so I ended up looking online
1313
00:54:34,897 --> 00:54:36,230
for any mention of her,
1314
00:54:36,231 --> 00:54:38,775
and I found record
of her wedding.
1315
00:54:38,776 --> 00:54:41,068
She married a man
named Zaido Cruz.
1316
00:54:41,069 --> 00:54:43,571
So I found mention
of a Zaido Cruz
1317
00:54:43,572 --> 00:54:46,699
on the website of a drummer
1318
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:48,784
whose name was Lance,
if I'm not mistaken.
1319
00:54:48,785 --> 00:54:50,119
And I emailed Lance and said,
1320
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:51,204
"Is this the Zaido Cruz
1321
00:54:51,205 --> 00:54:53,206
who's married
to Athena Finger?"
1322
00:54:53,207 --> 00:54:54,749
And he said...
he wrote back,
1323
00:54:54,750 --> 00:54:56,083
and I never spoke with him,
1324
00:54:56,084 --> 00:54:58,002
but this is the voice
that I heard, he's like,
1325
00:54:58,003 --> 00:55:00,463
"Yeah, man, hey,
dude, I know Zaido!
1326
00:55:00,464 --> 00:55:01,589
Yeah, he's in my band!"
1327
00:55:01,590 --> 00:55:03,090
or "I've played with
him, we've jammed,
1328
00:55:03,091 --> 00:55:05,176
and you should
totally look him up,
1329
00:55:05,177 --> 00:55:06,928
and you should find
them and, you know,
1330
00:55:06,929 --> 00:55:08,429
Athena should
be easy to find!"
1331
00:55:08,430 --> 00:55:09,472
And I said, "How's that?"
1332
00:55:09,473 --> 00:55:10,640
And he said, "Well,
just look her up
1333
00:55:10,641 --> 00:55:12,141
on her Myspace page."
1334
00:55:12,142 --> 00:55:15,102
In 2007, I was not
thinking Myspace
1335
00:55:15,103 --> 00:55:16,979
or Facebook or
social media at all.
1336
00:55:16,980 --> 00:55:19,148
So that was a revelation,
so thanks, Lance!
1337
00:55:19,149 --> 00:55:22,860
So I looked Athena
up on Myspace,
1338
00:55:22,861 --> 00:55:26,280
and when I found the
only Athena Finger there,
1339
00:55:26,281 --> 00:55:29,116
the first thing I saw
was a photo of a dog,
1340
00:55:29,117 --> 00:55:33,538
and the caption was,
"My Dog, Bruce Wayne."
1341
00:55:33,539 --> 00:55:35,456
That was a fist pump moment.
1342
00:55:35,457 --> 00:55:36,707
I don't think I
literally stood up
1343
00:55:36,708 --> 00:55:38,626
and did a fist pump,
1344
00:55:38,627 --> 00:55:39,919
that's maybe not my character,
1345
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,046
but in my mind I
was doing somersaults
1346
00:55:42,047 --> 00:55:45,132
and throwing the football down
1347
00:55:45,133 --> 00:55:46,467
and doing a dance
in the end zone.
1348
00:55:46,468 --> 00:55:48,010
That was my moment.
1349
00:55:48,011 --> 00:55:49,178
So I had that moment before,
1350
00:55:49,179 --> 00:55:50,429
I had that moment with Charles,
1351
00:55:50,430 --> 00:55:51,973
I had that moment with Lyn,
1352
00:55:51,974 --> 00:55:55,184
but those things filled in gaps.
1353
00:55:55,185 --> 00:55:57,770
They didn't completely
change the story.
1354
00:55:57,771 --> 00:56:01,816
♪
1355
00:56:01,817 --> 00:56:06,445
We are en route to
see Athena Finger,
1356
00:56:06,446 --> 00:56:10,658
the only heir to Bill Finger.
1357
00:56:10,659 --> 00:56:11,784
This would be
a big shake-up.
1358
00:56:11,785 --> 00:56:14,996
If the credit line
to Batman was changed
1359
00:56:14,997 --> 00:56:17,999
after 72 years,
that would be a big deal,
1360
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,542
and that would
actually be a first.
1361
00:56:19,543 --> 00:56:21,460
I can't think of
another comics character
1362
00:56:21,461 --> 00:56:23,797
whose credit line
has been changed.
1363
00:56:24,798 --> 00:56:27,091
- Hello... hey!
- Hey!
1364
00:56:27,092 --> 00:56:28,467
- How are you?
- How are you?
1365
00:56:28,468 --> 00:56:30,136
- Good, how are you?
- Good!
1366
00:56:30,137 --> 00:56:32,680
- And here's Bruce Wayne!
- That's Bruce Wayne!
1367
00:56:32,681 --> 00:56:33,932
How you doing?
1368
00:56:35,350 --> 00:56:37,685
I found out about Bill Finger
1369
00:56:37,686 --> 00:56:40,313
and his association with Batman
1370
00:56:40,314 --> 00:56:41,480
at an early age,
1371
00:56:41,481 --> 00:56:46,027
and I knew that my father
was excited and thrilled
1372
00:56:46,028 --> 00:56:48,154
about what his
father had created
1373
00:56:48,155 --> 00:56:49,697
with the Batman storyline,
1374
00:56:49,698 --> 00:56:53,492
and how he made it
what we love today.
1375
00:56:53,493 --> 00:56:55,745
Marc had found me,
1376
00:56:55,746 --> 00:56:58,372
and he explained
what he had been doing
1377
00:56:58,373 --> 00:57:00,583
and shared a bunch
of information
1378
00:57:00,584 --> 00:57:02,209
that he had found
that I didn't know
1379
00:57:02,210 --> 00:57:04,795
about Bill's family
and things like that.
1380
00:57:04,796 --> 00:57:07,673
She said to me, you know,
1381
00:57:07,674 --> 00:57:09,550
"I never knew my grandfather.
1382
00:57:09,551 --> 00:57:11,052
I was born two
years after he died,
1383
00:57:11,053 --> 00:57:13,220
so you could probably
tell me more about him
1384
00:57:13,221 --> 00:57:15,890
than I can tell you,
but I'm very interested
1385
00:57:15,891 --> 00:57:17,683
in hearing what
you have to say."
1386
00:57:17,684 --> 00:57:18,893
Bill used to keep copious notes.
1387
00:57:18,894 --> 00:57:21,729
He had gimmick books
where he would jot down
1388
00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:23,522
an idea that he
would use in the future,
1389
00:57:23,523 --> 00:57:26,108
- and a lot of it was...
- It was kind of exciting,
1390
00:57:26,109 --> 00:57:28,819
but it also was upsetting.
1391
00:57:28,820 --> 00:57:31,864
It brought up a lot
of this old stuff
1392
00:57:31,865 --> 00:57:34,450
that had been going on before...
around my father's death
1393
00:57:34,451 --> 00:57:36,160
and around my
grandfather's death,
1394
00:57:36,161 --> 00:57:39,705
and just how everything
was not really
1395
00:57:39,706 --> 00:57:41,248
in its proper place.
1396
00:57:41,249 --> 00:57:46,045
I told you that I found
an interview with your dad.
1397
00:57:46,046 --> 00:57:47,755
- Yes.
- And I have it.
1398
00:57:47,756 --> 00:57:49,548
Oh, you have it!
1399
00:57:49,549 --> 00:57:52,176
He had to write a lot of stories
1400
00:57:52,177 --> 00:57:53,844
in order to make
any kind of money.
1401
00:57:53,845 --> 00:57:56,597
He would get together
1402
00:57:56,598 --> 00:57:58,766
with a couple of
the other writers...
1403
00:57:58,767 --> 00:57:59,892
And I didn't know yet
1404
00:57:59,893 --> 00:58:03,104
that there was so much
trauma in the family.
1405
00:58:03,105 --> 00:58:04,647
It wasn't just a story of a girl
1406
00:58:04,648 --> 00:58:06,273
who never knew her grandfather.
1407
00:58:06,274 --> 00:58:07,316
It was also a story of a girl
1408
00:58:07,317 --> 00:58:10,903
who had issues with her father.
1409
00:58:10,904 --> 00:58:13,739
I haven't seen my
dad in, like, forever.
1410
00:58:13,740 --> 00:58:17,243
♪
1411
00:58:17,244 --> 00:58:19,203
My parents split when
I was three and a half,
1412
00:58:19,204 --> 00:58:21,664
so I didn't grow up with my dad.
1413
00:58:21,665 --> 00:58:22,707
I only got to see him
1414
00:58:22,708 --> 00:58:24,917
maybe a couple times a year.
1415
00:58:24,918 --> 00:58:27,253
It was really like,
if we went to New York,
1416
00:58:27,254 --> 00:58:28,295
we would go to the restaurant
1417
00:58:28,296 --> 00:58:30,506
that he was working
at and have dinner,
1418
00:58:30,507 --> 00:58:33,050
or he might come
up to Massachusetts
1419
00:58:33,051 --> 00:58:34,760
and spend a couple days.
1420
00:58:34,761 --> 00:58:36,804
It wasn't like I
had extended amounts
1421
00:58:36,805 --> 00:58:38,806
of time with him,
1422
00:58:38,807 --> 00:58:41,517
which kind of sucked,
because I only had him
1423
00:58:41,518 --> 00:58:43,811
for such a short amount of time.
1424
00:58:43,812 --> 00:58:46,063
♪
1425
00:58:46,064 --> 00:58:48,733
I was married six years.
1426
00:58:48,734 --> 00:58:50,860
I just understood
that he was bisexual
1427
00:58:50,861 --> 00:58:52,695
from the day that I met him,
1428
00:58:52,696 --> 00:58:54,530
and it wasn't a situation
1429
00:58:54,531 --> 00:58:57,408
that needed to be spoken of.
1430
00:58:57,409 --> 00:59:00,161
It was something
that we both understood
1431
00:59:00,162 --> 00:59:02,496
and accepted.
1432
00:59:02,497 --> 00:59:06,417
I learned that Fred
was HIV positive
1433
00:59:06,418 --> 00:59:09,044
the summer after I
was in the fourth grade,
1434
00:59:09,045 --> 00:59:11,839
so that's, what, 10?
1435
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,633
I spent a week with
him during the summer,
1436
00:59:14,634 --> 00:59:18,512
and he and I were at
the beach in Long Island,
1437
00:59:18,513 --> 00:59:21,223
and he's like, "I
got to talk to you."
1438
00:59:21,224 --> 00:59:24,435
So he was explaining,
1439
00:59:24,436 --> 00:59:25,603
"This is what's going on,
1440
00:59:25,604 --> 00:59:28,315
and we don't know
how long I have."
1441
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:33,027
And then when he
came to visit us
1442
00:59:33,028 --> 00:59:34,695
right before he passed away,
1443
00:59:34,696 --> 00:59:37,490
he was teeny-tiny,
just skin and bones.
1444
00:59:37,491 --> 00:59:40,242
I mean, he was down to nothing.
1445
00:59:40,243 --> 00:59:42,453
♪
1446
00:59:42,454 --> 00:59:43,621
When he came to visit
1447
00:59:43,622 --> 00:59:46,040
near the real end of his life,
1448
00:59:46,041 --> 00:59:48,334
we asked him not to leave.
1449
00:59:48,335 --> 00:59:50,169
♪
1450
00:59:50,170 --> 00:59:51,962
How did he respond,
what did he say?
1451
00:59:51,963 --> 00:59:53,047
He said, "I have to go back.
1452
00:59:53,048 --> 00:59:55,424
I have to die in New York."
1453
00:59:55,425 --> 00:59:59,720
♪
1454
00:59:59,721 --> 01:00:03,390
That year was rough.
1455
01:00:03,391 --> 01:00:06,227
Being 15 at the time,
not quite an adult,
1456
01:00:06,228 --> 01:00:08,562
but had to deal
with real adult issues,
1457
01:00:08,563 --> 01:00:12,358
and I was very angry
about a lot of things.
1458
01:00:12,359 --> 01:00:14,026
♪
1459
01:00:14,027 --> 01:00:17,947
And then, when he passed
away two months later,
1460
01:00:17,948 --> 01:00:20,407
I wasn't included,
I wasn't informed,
1461
01:00:20,408 --> 01:00:22,326
I wasn't...
1462
01:00:22,327 --> 01:00:25,579
I just was excluded
from everything.
1463
01:00:25,580 --> 01:00:27,957
I was really upset about it,
very angry about it
1464
01:00:27,958 --> 01:00:29,583
because I was his only child
1465
01:00:29,584 --> 01:00:31,752
and I should have been
there and I wasn't.
1466
01:00:31,753 --> 01:00:33,254
♪
1467
01:00:33,255 --> 01:00:36,048
AIDS was still very new
1468
01:00:36,049 --> 01:00:40,344
and stigmatized
1469
01:00:40,345 --> 01:00:42,763
and scary.
1470
01:00:42,764 --> 01:00:45,099
There was a lot of comfort
1471
01:00:45,100 --> 01:00:49,687
being with people who are
experiencing the same thing
1472
01:00:49,688 --> 01:00:54,316
and he created
a family of friends
1473
01:00:54,317 --> 01:00:57,611
that were there
when it got tough.
1474
01:00:57,612 --> 01:01:01,115
So New York was where
he really had to be,
1475
01:01:01,116 --> 01:01:02,491
he felt.
1476
01:01:02,492 --> 01:01:07,621
♪
1477
01:01:07,622 --> 01:01:10,291
I still don't have closure.
1478
01:01:10,292 --> 01:01:12,418
I was excluded from everything.
1479
01:01:12,419 --> 01:01:13,586
♪
1480
01:01:13,587 --> 01:01:15,796
I really was.
1481
01:01:15,797 --> 01:01:17,089
Sorry.
1482
01:01:17,090 --> 01:01:20,885
♪
1483
01:01:20,886 --> 01:01:23,804
I wasn't even there
to spread his ashes.
1484
01:01:23,805 --> 01:01:31,805
♪
1485
01:01:33,732 --> 01:01:35,816
I don't even know where he is.
1486
01:01:35,817 --> 01:01:42,990
♪
1487
01:01:42,991 --> 01:01:45,159
When Marc Nobleman called me,
1488
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:50,372
I said to him, "I'm not sure
that this is beneficial
1489
01:01:50,373 --> 01:01:51,707
to our family welfare,
1490
01:01:51,708 --> 01:01:54,001
for this to be
brought up again."
1491
01:01:54,002 --> 01:01:58,505
We tried our hardest to do
something about it in the past.
1492
01:01:58,506 --> 01:02:02,509
I mean, I love Fred and
I wanted credit for Bill,
1493
01:02:02,510 --> 01:02:07,097
but we had spent years trying
to get the credit for him.
1494
01:02:07,098 --> 01:02:08,474
♪
1495
01:02:08,475 --> 01:02:12,311
Fred really just wanted
his father to have recognition.
1496
01:02:12,312 --> 01:02:15,189
It was very important
for Fred to validate
1497
01:02:15,190 --> 01:02:18,692
the existence of his father
and his artistic talents
1498
01:02:18,693 --> 01:02:21,654
and he gave it his best.
1499
01:02:21,655 --> 01:02:24,573
I never went to DC,
Fred went to DC alone,
1500
01:02:24,574 --> 01:02:27,952
but I understand the way
that it was dealt with.
1501
01:02:27,953 --> 01:02:29,620
They treated you
like you were family
1502
01:02:29,621 --> 01:02:32,665
but gave you nothing
in return for it.
1503
01:02:32,666 --> 01:02:36,085
Anything to make you
feel comfortable
1504
01:02:36,086 --> 01:02:40,297
but they were keeping
everything for themselves.
1505
01:02:40,298 --> 01:02:41,799
After about the third attorney,
1506
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,260
Fred just said, "We just need to
stop this, Bonnie, and go on."
1507
01:02:45,261 --> 01:02:51,392
So Fred never got to see
his father get, on the screen,
1508
01:02:51,393 --> 01:02:53,644
"Co-creator
William Finger."
1509
01:02:53,645 --> 01:02:55,854
♪
1510
01:02:55,855 --> 01:02:58,107
The tradition in our
family, unfortunately,
1511
01:02:58,108 --> 01:03:00,859
is being excluded
from everything.
1512
01:03:00,860 --> 01:03:04,405
There is this sense
of not being acknowledged,
1513
01:03:04,406 --> 01:03:09,702
of what I'm part of
and who my family was.
1514
01:03:09,703 --> 01:03:10,828
I remember in the third grade
1515
01:03:10,829 --> 01:03:14,081
we had to do this
book on our lives,
1516
01:03:14,082 --> 01:03:17,251
so I included the information
about my grandfather
1517
01:03:17,252 --> 01:03:19,628
and his involvement
with Batman and stuff
1518
01:03:19,629 --> 01:03:21,088
and people wouldn't believe me
1519
01:03:21,089 --> 01:03:22,756
or they questioned me.
1520
01:03:22,757 --> 01:03:25,050
So for a long time
I kept quiet about it,
1521
01:03:25,051 --> 01:03:27,094
especially after my
father passed away.
1522
01:03:27,095 --> 01:03:28,303
♪
1523
01:03:28,304 --> 01:03:32,349
I always kind of referred to
it as, like, the dark cloud
1524
01:03:32,350 --> 01:03:33,684
that hung over my head
1525
01:03:33,685 --> 01:03:36,145
because it was
something that I knew
1526
01:03:36,146 --> 01:03:38,439
that needed to be corrected,
1527
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,275
just didn't know
which avenue to take.
1528
01:03:41,276 --> 01:03:43,861
So it was always, like, looming.
1529
01:03:43,862 --> 01:03:46,613
♪
1530
01:03:46,614 --> 01:03:48,574
I wasted no time
in telling Athena
1531
01:03:48,575 --> 01:03:50,743
that I would be
disappointed in myself
1532
01:03:50,744 --> 01:03:53,454
if I didn't tell you
that this is your birthright
1533
01:03:53,455 --> 01:03:55,998
and I thought for a year
that nobody could ever do
1534
01:03:55,999 --> 01:03:57,541
anything about this credit line,
1535
01:03:57,542 --> 01:03:58,917
and I'm going to
write this book,
1536
01:03:58,918 --> 01:04:02,129
but if we want a shot at
changing that credit line,
1537
01:04:02,130 --> 01:04:03,505
it has to be you."
1538
01:04:03,506 --> 01:04:04,965
I had been told for a long time
1539
01:04:04,966 --> 01:04:06,633
that it was kind of a dead issue
1540
01:04:06,634 --> 01:04:08,302
and I shouldn't really pursue it
1541
01:04:08,303 --> 01:04:09,678
and I should just let it be,
1542
01:04:09,679 --> 01:04:11,805
and it would take tons of money
1543
01:04:11,806 --> 01:04:13,390
and, like, all
these other excuses
1544
01:04:13,391 --> 01:04:17,144
of why I shouldn't pursue
adding Bill's credit.
1545
01:04:17,145 --> 01:04:19,772
I encouraged Athena
to contact DC
1546
01:04:19,773 --> 01:04:24,276
and at first she was
not keen on that.
1547
01:04:24,277 --> 01:04:27,362
She was a young mom
with a career and a life
1548
01:04:27,363 --> 01:04:28,989
and she said, "Of course
I've thought about this,
1549
01:04:28,990 --> 01:04:30,574
but this is too daunting.
1550
01:04:30,575 --> 01:04:32,701
I mean, where do
you even start?"
1551
01:04:32,702 --> 01:04:35,621
It took some
convincing of Marc to,
1552
01:04:35,622 --> 01:04:37,539
"Athena, go, talk to them.
1553
01:04:37,540 --> 01:04:40,167
Call this person."
1554
01:04:40,168 --> 01:04:41,835
I'm like, "Eh, I don't know."
1555
01:04:41,836 --> 01:04:43,504
Like, I was really hesitant.
1556
01:04:43,505 --> 01:04:45,214
I didn't know what to expect.
1557
01:04:45,215 --> 01:04:46,423
♪
1558
01:04:46,424 --> 01:04:49,468
But as soon as I spoke to them,
they invited me up to come
1559
01:04:49,469 --> 01:04:51,303
and take a tour of the office
1560
01:04:51,304 --> 01:04:52,763
when it was still
in New York City,
1561
01:04:52,764 --> 01:04:54,973
which was very cool.
1562
01:04:54,974 --> 01:04:57,351
So then after that,
we went to the movie premiere
1563
01:04:57,352 --> 01:04:58,644
for "The Dark Knight"
1564
01:04:58,645 --> 01:05:02,022
and did the whole red carpet
and then the afterparty.
1565
01:05:02,023 --> 01:05:03,899
It was just like, "Woo!"
1566
01:05:03,900 --> 01:05:05,109
It was awesome.
1567
01:05:05,110 --> 01:05:08,195
It was a really amazing scene
seeing all these people
1568
01:05:08,196 --> 01:05:09,738
and it was like Hollywood.
1569
01:05:09,739 --> 01:05:12,324
Like, it was so
cool to be there.
1570
01:05:12,325 --> 01:05:14,243
Like, "Oh my gosh,
I'm a part of this."
1571
01:05:14,244 --> 01:05:17,204
And then they just kept
inviting me to things.
1572
01:05:17,205 --> 01:05:19,957
You know, just really
accepting and, like,
1573
01:05:19,958 --> 01:05:21,166
"Please, join in."
1574
01:05:21,167 --> 01:05:22,835
PR people got in touch with me
1575
01:05:22,836 --> 01:05:25,379
and informed me that they were
going to pay for the room
1576
01:05:25,380 --> 01:05:27,881
and fly me and
my friend out here.
1577
01:05:27,882 --> 01:05:30,592
I get to play movie star
for a little while.
1578
01:05:30,593 --> 01:05:32,636
The whole thing was very fast.
1579
01:05:32,637 --> 01:05:34,888
Finding the heir and then DC
1580
01:05:34,889 --> 01:05:37,891
being quite cooperative
about the whole process.
1581
01:05:37,892 --> 01:05:42,020
I was very surprised
by how that all happened.
1582
01:05:42,021 --> 01:05:43,730
They were very generous
1583
01:05:43,731 --> 01:05:47,734
and they did send me
a bonus sum of money
1584
01:05:47,735 --> 01:05:48,861
for the movie.
1585
01:05:48,862 --> 01:05:51,071
It said, you know,
"This is," you know,
1586
01:05:51,072 --> 01:05:53,031
"for his contributions."
1587
01:05:53,032 --> 01:05:56,410
You know, "We're so glad that
you're part of the family now."
1588
01:05:56,411 --> 01:06:00,414
So I was like,
"Oh, this is nice."
1589
01:06:00,415 --> 01:06:01,915
The term "Thank you payment,"
1590
01:06:01,916 --> 01:06:05,169
it's a case where a
company writes a writer
1591
01:06:05,170 --> 01:06:07,171
or an artist a check
1592
01:06:07,172 --> 01:06:08,505
and says, "We're giving you this
1593
01:06:08,506 --> 01:06:10,465
because you contributed
something or other
1594
01:06:10,466 --> 01:06:12,009
to this character."
1595
01:06:12,010 --> 01:06:14,011
I guess that's the kind of
thing that the companies
1596
01:06:14,012 --> 01:06:16,763
have wanted to do
in the last few decades
1597
01:06:16,764 --> 01:06:19,516
as the things got to be
really big business.
1598
01:06:19,517 --> 01:06:20,767
There's so much money involved
1599
01:06:20,768 --> 01:06:22,936
and nobody wants
a lot of lawsuits.
1600
01:06:22,937 --> 01:06:25,022
So it just makes a lot of sense
1601
01:06:25,023 --> 01:06:26,440
giving a few thousand dollars,
1602
01:06:26,441 --> 01:06:29,610
$10,000 or $20,000 to somebody.
1603
01:06:29,611 --> 01:06:31,445
You know, somewhere between
1604
01:06:31,446 --> 01:06:32,863
creator credit and hush money.
1605
01:06:32,864 --> 01:06:36,200
The Bill Finger story
has a number of imperatives.
1606
01:06:36,201 --> 01:06:38,911
There's the cultural
side of this,
1607
01:06:38,912 --> 01:06:40,954
there is the moral side of this,
1608
01:06:40,955 --> 01:06:42,831
there is the
financial side of this.
1609
01:06:42,832 --> 01:06:45,125
How much is Batman worth now?
1610
01:06:45,126 --> 01:06:46,293
A gob!
1611
01:06:46,294 --> 01:06:47,294
What are you talking about?
1612
01:06:47,295 --> 01:06:49,630
It's movies,
it's toys, it's pajamas,
1613
01:06:49,631 --> 01:06:52,257
it's cartoons, it's comi...
1614
01:06:52,258 --> 01:06:53,717
I mean, it's a vernacular.
1615
01:06:53,718 --> 01:06:55,969
You say "Batman" to a grandma...
1616
01:06:55,970 --> 01:06:57,262
This is the greatest brand...
1617
01:06:57,263 --> 01:07:00,098
"Batman," grandma
knows through attrition.
1618
01:07:00,099 --> 01:07:01,266
When you open a comic
book, there it says,
1619
01:07:01,267 --> 01:07:02,559
"Created by Bob Kane."
1620
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:05,395
When you see the movies, it
says, "Created by Bob Kane."
1621
01:07:05,396 --> 01:07:06,939
Correcting that is something
1622
01:07:06,940 --> 01:07:09,149
that terrified everybody,
I think, for decades
1623
01:07:09,150 --> 01:07:11,902
because correcting that
isn't just a simple matter
1624
01:07:11,903 --> 01:07:15,614
of putting Bill Finger's
name onto Batman.
1625
01:07:15,615 --> 01:07:17,491
It also opens up the floodgates
1626
01:07:17,492 --> 01:07:19,993
to a massive conglomerate
1627
01:07:19,994 --> 01:07:22,621
for potential revenue tapping.
1628
01:07:22,622 --> 01:07:26,583
DC Comics is one spoke
in the massive operation
1629
01:07:26,584 --> 01:07:27,834
that is Warner Brothers,
1630
01:07:27,835 --> 01:07:29,086
which is underneath Time Warner.
1631
01:07:29,087 --> 01:07:31,588
So, I mean, it's a huge
media company, of course,
1632
01:07:31,589 --> 01:07:34,258
and Batman is one of
the biggest money makers
1633
01:07:34,259 --> 01:07:36,677
in fiction, period.
1634
01:07:36,678 --> 01:07:40,806
So DC was under
the umbrella of Warner Brothers
1635
01:07:40,807 --> 01:07:43,141
but as soon as we got
to "The Dark Knight Rises,"
1636
01:07:43,142 --> 01:07:45,143
Warner Brothers
was really overseeing
1637
01:07:45,144 --> 01:07:47,688
all of the corporate side.
1638
01:07:47,689 --> 01:07:50,148
Which brings me into in 2012
1639
01:07:50,149 --> 01:07:52,276
when "The Dark Knight
Rises" came out
1640
01:07:52,277 --> 01:07:54,236
and I got an email
saying, you know,
1641
01:07:54,237 --> 01:07:57,948
"We would like to have
you sign this document
1642
01:07:57,949 --> 01:08:00,200
so that we can cut you a check,
1643
01:08:00,201 --> 01:08:02,202
so sign it and please return."
1644
01:08:02,203 --> 01:08:03,787
But the gist of it
was they wanted me
1645
01:08:03,788 --> 01:08:06,748
to terminate my rights
to any kind of claim.
1646
01:08:06,749 --> 01:08:08,542
They wanted me to close the door
1647
01:08:08,543 --> 01:08:11,586
on Bill getting any
kind of credit.
1648
01:08:11,587 --> 01:08:14,215
They were trying
to make me quiet.
1649
01:08:16,926 --> 01:08:17,926
Yeah, right?
1650
01:08:17,927 --> 01:08:19,219
- So is this for you?
- Yes, please.
1651
01:08:19,220 --> 01:08:20,387
Alex or Alex...
1652
01:08:20,388 --> 01:08:21,847
- Alex.
- Okay.
1653
01:08:21,848 --> 01:08:23,557
I had this blind faith all along
1654
01:08:23,558 --> 01:08:26,226
that I would see the book
through to publication.
1655
01:08:26,227 --> 01:08:28,770
Although, believe me,
there were plenty of roadblocks
1656
01:08:28,771 --> 01:08:30,063
and obstacles.
1657
01:08:30,064 --> 01:08:31,898
So getting the book out
was a huge accomplishment;
1658
01:08:31,899 --> 01:08:35,652
just to see any book through
is something I'm proud of.
1659
01:08:35,653 --> 01:08:37,321
The book came out in 2012
1660
01:08:37,322 --> 01:08:40,574
and with it came a
chance to talk about Bill
1661
01:08:40,575 --> 01:08:43,160
in an arena that was
even bigger than a book.
1662
01:08:43,161 --> 01:08:44,870
Secret identities
are for superheroes,
1663
01:08:44,871 --> 01:08:46,246
not the guys behind them.
1664
01:08:46,247 --> 01:08:48,790
I had the chance
to do a TED Talk.
1665
01:08:48,791 --> 01:08:51,209
Bill Finger's life
ended tragically,
1666
01:08:51,210 --> 01:08:53,795
but his story isn't over yet.
1667
01:08:53,796 --> 01:08:55,505
I was interviewed on NPR.
1668
01:08:55,506 --> 01:08:57,299
Now if you've seen
"The Dark Knight Rises,"
1669
01:08:57,300 --> 01:09:00,594
the name not there
is that of Bill Finger.
1670
01:09:00,595 --> 01:09:03,930
I had the chance to go
on Kevin Smith's podcast.
1671
01:09:03,931 --> 01:09:06,516
Does he have heirs,
is there a family?
1672
01:09:06,517 --> 01:09:08,268
Yeah, well, that
was the biggest, uh,
1673
01:09:08,269 --> 01:09:09,770
discovery of my research.
1674
01:09:09,771 --> 01:09:11,813
Legally I can't do
anything to change this,
1675
01:09:11,814 --> 01:09:12,774
but she can.
1676
01:09:12,775 --> 01:09:14,733
She is Batgirl
for heaven's sakes.
1677
01:09:14,734 --> 01:09:18,195
When you have somebody
who's speaking that loudly,
1678
01:09:18,196 --> 01:09:21,782
advocating that loudly
on behalf of a cause,
1679
01:09:21,783 --> 01:09:23,909
something is going to get done.
1680
01:09:23,910 --> 01:09:26,787
It incited this bubbling
movement, you know,
1681
01:09:26,788 --> 01:09:28,330
where suddenly
you started hearing
1682
01:09:28,331 --> 01:09:29,873
more and more about Bill Finger.
1683
01:09:29,874 --> 01:09:31,458
He had no Batman of his own,
1684
01:09:31,459 --> 01:09:33,293
but I think you are
Bill Finger's Batman,
1685
01:09:33,294 --> 01:09:34,461
for heaven's sakes.
1686
01:09:34,462 --> 01:09:36,213
You're the one that's
going to find him justice.
1687
01:09:36,214 --> 01:09:37,090
♪
1688
01:09:37,091 --> 01:09:38,673
I kept talking
about raising an army
1689
01:09:38,674 --> 01:09:39,966
and groundswell of support,
1690
01:09:39,967 --> 01:09:41,176
but I never actually
stopped to think about,
1691
01:09:41,177 --> 01:09:42,761
"Well, those are people too."
1692
01:09:42,762 --> 01:09:45,597
So that did start to really
become my driving force
1693
01:09:45,598 --> 01:09:47,974
was I can't let
all these people down.
1694
01:09:47,975 --> 01:09:50,477
So I was doing some
groundwork on one level,
1695
01:09:50,478 --> 01:09:51,812
but we needed
something else to happen
1696
01:09:51,813 --> 01:09:53,188
on another level.
1697
01:09:53,189 --> 01:09:55,982
♪
1698
01:09:55,983 --> 01:09:57,067
It had been a year
1699
01:09:57,068 --> 01:10:00,320
since Marc Nobleman's
book had been out.
1700
01:10:00,321 --> 01:10:02,989
So more people were
starting to contact me,
1701
01:10:02,990 --> 01:10:05,827
"Are you really
Bill's granddaughter?"
1702
01:10:17,505 --> 01:10:20,048
(laughter)
1703
01:10:20,049 --> 01:10:22,551
And this is her
first convention ever.
1704
01:10:22,552 --> 01:10:24,010
(applause)
1705
01:10:24,011 --> 01:10:25,721
I brought Athena
into the conventions.
1706
01:10:25,722 --> 01:10:27,806
Whether we're talking about
a Wizard World convention,
1707
01:10:27,807 --> 01:10:31,017
or San Diego,
or the New York Comic Con,
1708
01:10:31,018 --> 01:10:32,853
I brought her into
a number that year,
1709
01:10:32,854 --> 01:10:35,522
to meet the fans
and to get her out
1710
01:10:35,523 --> 01:10:38,859
from those curtains that
she was staying behind,
1711
01:10:38,860 --> 01:10:40,694
to meet other people.
1712
01:10:40,695 --> 01:10:44,030
I had never been to a
formal convention before,
1713
01:10:44,031 --> 01:10:45,073
any of that stuff.
1714
01:10:45,074 --> 01:10:47,701
So I did my first panel,
I was so nervous.
1715
01:10:47,702 --> 01:10:50,328
I'm like, "I don't even know
what we're talking about."
1716
01:10:50,329 --> 01:10:52,706
The fans would ask her
questions and she would say,
1717
01:10:52,707 --> 01:10:54,708
"I'm learning about
these things from you."
1718
01:10:54,709 --> 01:10:57,961
She was learning things
about her grandfather
1719
01:10:57,962 --> 01:11:00,714
and the legacy and
exactly what Bill did
1720
01:11:00,715 --> 01:11:03,800
from all of us
because she'd grown up
1721
01:11:03,801 --> 01:11:06,052
with it being this thing
to be uncomfortable about.
1722
01:11:06,053 --> 01:11:08,680
Was it not just this wonderful
thing to tell everybody,
1723
01:11:08,681 --> 01:11:10,265
"Hey, my granddad was
one of the co-creators
1724
01:11:10,266 --> 01:11:11,933
of Batman," when
you were growing up?
1725
01:11:11,934 --> 01:11:13,894
Well, you would think
it would be a great thing,
1726
01:11:13,895 --> 01:11:16,480
but, um, growing up,
no, it wasn't.
1727
01:11:16,481 --> 01:11:19,232
I shied away from
talking about it.
1728
01:11:19,233 --> 01:11:20,233
As I got older...
1729
01:11:20,234 --> 01:11:22,986
She's not eager to talk
to the crowd herself,
1730
01:11:22,987 --> 01:11:24,946
she's eager to get
the information out,
1731
01:11:24,947 --> 01:11:26,364
so she's doing it anyway.
1732
01:11:26,365 --> 01:11:28,575
And I think that's a bit heroic.
1733
01:11:28,576 --> 01:11:30,368
Part of Athena's
grieving process
1734
01:11:30,369 --> 01:11:32,120
is going to Comic
Con and talking
1735
01:11:32,121 --> 01:11:36,416
about her grandfather
and her father.
1736
01:11:36,417 --> 01:11:39,085
It's wonderful to see.
1737
01:11:39,086 --> 01:11:41,755
And he would be
right there with her
1738
01:11:41,756 --> 01:11:45,008
because it was something
Fred wanted for his father.
1739
01:11:45,009 --> 01:11:46,051
- Okay.
- There we go.
1740
01:11:46,052 --> 01:11:49,679
There was so much
support from people.
1741
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:52,682
They really, really
wanted to see Bill's name
1742
01:11:52,683 --> 01:11:55,101
attached to Batman,
as it should be.
1743
01:11:55,102 --> 01:11:57,938
Comic book fans, their
fights are on the page.
1744
01:11:57,939 --> 01:12:00,607
They don't bring it into
the real world or anything.
1745
01:12:00,608 --> 01:12:03,360
But the fights that
they do get involved in,
1746
01:12:03,361 --> 01:12:04,778
it's not fisticuffs,
1747
01:12:04,779 --> 01:12:06,071
it's battles for what is right.
1748
01:12:06,072 --> 01:12:07,072
And how could they not?
1749
01:12:07,073 --> 01:12:08,281
Because the characters
they read about
1750
01:12:08,282 --> 01:12:10,116
all the time do the same thing.
1751
01:12:10,117 --> 01:12:12,077
Those are your role
models on the page.
1752
01:12:12,078 --> 01:12:14,287
So while Bill
didn't train people
1753
01:12:14,288 --> 01:12:16,456
to fight for him
after he was dead,
1754
01:12:16,457 --> 01:12:17,791
you have a bunch
of people who read
1755
01:12:17,792 --> 01:12:19,835
and were influenced by
the work of Bill Finger,
1756
01:12:19,836 --> 01:12:23,755
like this is what's right,
this is what's just.
1757
01:12:23,756 --> 01:12:27,008
So that's really where I
got a lot of pressure from,
1758
01:12:27,009 --> 01:12:28,009
was from the fans.
1759
01:12:28,010 --> 01:12:29,177
"Why isn't this happening?
1760
01:12:29,178 --> 01:12:30,637
Why isn't his name attached?
1761
01:12:30,638 --> 01:12:31,888
What's happening?
1762
01:12:31,889 --> 01:12:33,306
Why... what, what, what?
1763
01:12:33,307 --> 01:12:34,432
Tell me, tell me, tell me.
1764
01:12:34,433 --> 01:12:35,475
How, how, how?
1765
01:12:35,476 --> 01:12:36,643
Do, do, do."
1766
01:12:36,644 --> 01:12:38,854
And so I knew that
1767
01:12:38,855 --> 01:12:41,648
something was going
to come out of it.
1768
01:12:41,649 --> 01:12:46,152
In 2014, WonderCon was
held in Anaheim, California,
1769
01:12:46,153 --> 01:12:48,989
and there was this Batman panel.
1770
01:12:48,990 --> 01:12:52,617
And an audience member
gets up to the microphone
1771
01:12:52,618 --> 01:12:54,369
and asks this question about,
1772
01:12:54,370 --> 01:12:56,162
"Will Bill Finger get credit?"
1773
01:12:56,163 --> 01:12:58,623
And there's just
silence up there.
1774
01:12:58,624 --> 01:13:01,001
One member of the
panel says, "Crickets."
1775
01:13:01,002 --> 01:13:05,088
And a person working for DC,
1776
01:13:05,089 --> 01:13:06,506
Larry Ganem,
1777
01:13:06,507 --> 01:13:08,758
gets up and he says that,
1778
01:13:08,759 --> 01:13:12,345
"We're all good with
Finger and his family."
1779
01:13:12,346 --> 01:13:17,017
And that was when, "Okay,
we've got to reply to this."
1780
01:13:17,018 --> 01:13:19,686
Athena and I put
the statement together that,
1781
01:13:19,687 --> 01:13:24,816
"No, things are not all good
with the Finger family."
1782
01:13:24,817 --> 01:13:26,860
Timing is everything.
1783
01:13:26,861 --> 01:13:29,696
75th anniversary
of Batman's coming up,
1784
01:13:29,697 --> 01:13:31,698
it was the hundred
year anniversary
1785
01:13:31,699 --> 01:13:33,533
of my grandfather's birth,
1786
01:13:33,534 --> 01:13:36,703
it was the 25th
anniversary of the '89 movie.
1787
01:13:36,704 --> 01:13:40,665
Like all this stuff was
coming together in 2014.
1788
01:13:40,666 --> 01:13:43,501
I called Athena
and we had a huge cry
1789
01:13:43,502 --> 01:13:45,670
over Fred being gone.
1790
01:13:45,671 --> 01:13:48,381
And then we discussed it.
1791
01:13:48,382 --> 01:13:50,508
Maybe it's time that Bill Finger
1792
01:13:50,509 --> 01:13:53,470
got the recognition he deserved.
1793
01:13:53,471 --> 01:13:58,725
And that's when
it became a fight.
1794
01:13:58,726 --> 01:14:01,436
I felt that the
timing was right.
1795
01:14:01,437 --> 01:14:04,439
I knew it was
either now or never.
1796
01:14:04,440 --> 01:14:07,734
And I think I
called my sister first.
1797
01:14:07,735 --> 01:14:10,403
We have different fathers,
she's older than I am.
1798
01:14:10,404 --> 01:14:13,365
She felt like it was
really a burden in her life
1799
01:14:13,366 --> 01:14:17,494
to have inherited this
controversy, basically.
1800
01:14:17,495 --> 01:14:19,621
Knowing that I was the
only one that could do it
1801
01:14:19,622 --> 01:14:20,747
was a huge burden.
1802
01:14:20,748 --> 01:14:24,668
So it really... I wanted
to get it finished
1803
01:14:24,669 --> 01:14:27,087
knowing that I
only had one chance.
1804
01:14:27,088 --> 01:14:30,674
Being an attorney,
I... I was able
1805
01:14:30,675 --> 01:14:34,177
to assess what resources
we had and didn't have.
1806
01:14:34,178 --> 01:14:37,639
So she contacted me
because she was seeking
1807
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,475
a copyright attorney to help her
1808
01:14:40,476 --> 01:14:43,228
with the situation.
1809
01:14:43,229 --> 01:14:45,313
The copyright law says
1810
01:14:45,314 --> 01:14:49,609
that when two people
create parts of something
1811
01:14:49,610 --> 01:14:51,987
that are intended to be merged
1812
01:14:51,988 --> 01:14:54,489
into an inseparable work,
1813
01:14:54,490 --> 01:14:56,157
then it's a joint work
1814
01:14:56,158 --> 01:14:59,661
and each of them
is a co-owner.
1815
01:14:59,662 --> 01:15:04,791
So coming into this, one of
the most commonly cited facts
1816
01:15:04,792 --> 01:15:07,460
of Batman lore is that Bob Kane
1817
01:15:07,461 --> 01:15:09,671
negotiated a contract
in which he would be
1818
01:15:09,672 --> 01:15:12,132
the sole creator
in perpetuity of Batman,
1819
01:15:12,133 --> 01:15:14,884
he would be the only
name listed as creator.
1820
01:15:14,885 --> 01:15:17,345
The only thing I've always
gotten from the people
1821
01:15:17,346 --> 01:15:19,222
that I have talked to at DC is,
1822
01:15:19,223 --> 01:15:21,057
"We know what
your grandfather did,
1823
01:15:21,058 --> 01:15:22,934
we wish we could
put his name on it,
1824
01:15:22,935 --> 01:15:25,937
but we can't because of
the contracts that we have."
1825
01:15:25,938 --> 01:15:28,648
This infamous Bob Kane contract
1826
01:15:28,649 --> 01:15:30,692
has never been
publicly disclosed,
1827
01:15:30,693 --> 01:15:32,360
as expected.
1828
01:15:32,361 --> 01:15:34,487
I mean, these are big
characters, big companies,
1829
01:15:34,488 --> 01:15:36,281
they have no obligation so share
1830
01:15:36,282 --> 01:15:39,367
all of their contents
of their vault.
1831
01:15:39,368 --> 01:15:42,412
If any company had an agreement
1832
01:15:42,413 --> 01:15:44,914
that clearly spelled
out their rights
1833
01:15:44,915 --> 01:15:48,084
and that shut down
a copyright claim,
1834
01:15:48,085 --> 01:15:51,755
it seems to me that
they would produce that.
1835
01:15:51,756 --> 01:15:53,590
I don't know why you wouldn't.
1836
01:15:53,591 --> 01:15:55,467
It might be hearsay,
it might be a myth
1837
01:15:55,468 --> 01:15:58,970
that DC Comics is perpetuating
1838
01:15:58,971 --> 01:16:01,097
because it helps them.
1839
01:16:01,098 --> 01:16:02,348
Or it might be real
1840
01:16:02,349 --> 01:16:05,977
and the original source was Bob.
1841
01:16:05,978 --> 01:16:07,854
That is another
interesting thing
1842
01:16:07,855 --> 01:16:10,356
about the copyright law
that was in play here.
1843
01:16:10,357 --> 01:16:11,649
Somebody is simply claiming
1844
01:16:11,650 --> 01:16:13,860
that they are the sole
author when they're not,
1845
01:16:13,861 --> 01:16:15,862
that's not really...
That doesn't really do it.
1846
01:16:15,863 --> 01:16:20,033
So then you look at what
did Bill Finger contribute?
1847
01:16:20,034 --> 01:16:22,702
Did that make him a joint author
1848
01:16:22,703 --> 01:16:24,829
or joint owner of the work?
1849
01:16:24,830 --> 01:16:27,707
Marc Tyler Nobleman
sort of taking this case on,
1850
01:16:27,708 --> 01:16:30,126
delving into the research,
1851
01:16:30,127 --> 01:16:31,586
and then, of course, Bob Kane,
1852
01:16:31,587 --> 01:16:32,754
you know, eventually
kind of helped
1853
01:16:32,755 --> 01:16:35,591
by talking about Bill's
contribution himself.
1854
01:16:43,724 --> 01:16:47,060
Um, that was very important.
1855
01:16:47,061 --> 01:16:48,561
If poor Athena,
like, had to start
1856
01:16:48,562 --> 01:16:50,230
with that threshold issue,
1857
01:16:50,231 --> 01:16:52,649
that just would have been
really, really difficult.
1858
01:16:52,650 --> 01:16:56,236
I mean, this is a huge
entertainment company
1859
01:16:56,237 --> 01:16:59,572
with an entire department
of, you know, attorneys.
1860
01:16:59,573 --> 01:17:01,950
And then there's,
you know, Athena Finger.
1861
01:17:01,951 --> 01:17:05,245
♪
1862
01:17:05,246 --> 01:17:08,206
Sadly, for people
who are creating stories
1863
01:17:08,207 --> 01:17:10,458
about superheroes
who are selfless
1864
01:17:10,459 --> 01:17:12,168
and saving people's lives,
1865
01:17:12,169 --> 01:17:14,671
there's not a whole lot
1866
01:17:14,672 --> 01:17:16,506
of generosity going on here.
1867
01:17:16,507 --> 01:17:20,343
You've got creators fighting
a company over a character.
1868
01:17:20,344 --> 01:17:24,597
And, you know, it's a classic
David and Goliath story.
1869
01:17:24,598 --> 01:17:28,434
And in these cases, usually
the underdog doesn't win.
1870
01:17:28,435 --> 01:17:31,813
As teenagers in
Cleveland in 1933,
1871
01:17:31,814 --> 01:17:33,523
these two boys
signed a piece of paper
1872
01:17:33,524 --> 01:17:35,525
that, in effect,
sold their rights,
1873
01:17:35,526 --> 01:17:37,110
and they sold them for $130.
1874
01:17:37,111 --> 01:17:38,570
Well, they were just kids
1875
01:17:38,571 --> 01:17:40,613
and they were so anxious
to get published,
1876
01:17:40,614 --> 01:17:42,115
so anxious for recognition,
1877
01:17:42,116 --> 01:17:44,784
that they signed away
their copyright.
1878
01:17:44,785 --> 01:17:46,661
Superman became what Superman is
1879
01:17:46,662 --> 01:17:50,623
because of DC building Superman
1880
01:17:50,624 --> 01:17:52,750
to the industry that it is.
1881
01:17:52,751 --> 01:17:54,794
But still, Siegel and Shuster
1882
01:17:54,795 --> 01:17:57,255
deserved a lot
more than they got.
1883
01:17:57,256 --> 01:18:00,633
You know, they made
a couple of efforts
1884
01:18:00,634 --> 01:18:03,845
to get greater credit.
1885
01:18:03,846 --> 01:18:05,680
In their 1947 suit,
1886
01:18:05,681 --> 01:18:09,017
Siegel and Shuster did not
get ownership of Superman.
1887
01:18:09,018 --> 01:18:11,769
They did get $94,000 more,
1888
01:18:11,770 --> 01:18:13,229
but National Periodical
1889
01:18:13,230 --> 01:18:15,732
then owned Superman and Superboy
1890
01:18:15,733 --> 01:18:17,942
and fired Siegel and Shuster.
1891
01:18:17,943 --> 01:18:19,027
The creators of Superman
1892
01:18:19,028 --> 01:18:23,823
first sued over credit in 1947.
1893
01:18:23,824 --> 01:18:27,368
They were still working
for the company at the time.
1894
01:18:27,369 --> 01:18:30,496
So they lost the lawsuit,
they lost their jobs,
1895
01:18:30,497 --> 01:18:33,166
and the company
that became DC Comics
1896
01:18:33,167 --> 01:18:34,918
took their name off Superman.
1897
01:18:34,919 --> 01:18:37,629
In 1963, Siegel and Shuster
1898
01:18:37,630 --> 01:18:39,172
started another suit,
1899
01:18:39,173 --> 01:18:40,924
this one to win
back the copyright
1900
01:18:40,925 --> 01:18:44,177
when it came up
for renewal in 1966.
1901
01:18:44,178 --> 01:18:45,345
The court finding,
1902
01:18:45,346 --> 01:18:48,681
"Superman belongs to
National Periodical."
1903
01:18:48,682 --> 01:18:52,018
Long story short
is Superman has been
1904
01:18:52,019 --> 01:18:54,562
the subject of litigation
almost from the beginning,
1905
01:18:54,563 --> 01:18:58,024
and it's been going on
for decades at this point.
1906
01:18:58,025 --> 01:19:00,610
And most of the major
players are gone,
1907
01:19:00,611 --> 01:19:04,197
so it's passed on to
the second generation.
1908
01:19:04,198 --> 01:19:06,783
When you're dealing
with something so big,
1909
01:19:06,784 --> 01:19:08,326
the stakes are
big on either side
1910
01:19:08,327 --> 01:19:10,495
of a challenge, of a contest.
1911
01:19:10,496 --> 01:19:13,039
And, you know,
the Superman situation
1912
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:14,916
would not have instilled
a lot of confidence
1913
01:19:14,917 --> 01:19:17,168
that you can win.
1914
01:19:17,169 --> 01:19:20,922
To push this type
of a claim further,
1915
01:19:20,923 --> 01:19:24,550
you have to have the means
1916
01:19:24,551 --> 01:19:27,387
and, frankly,
the money to do it.
1917
01:19:27,388 --> 01:19:30,390
And no single person, really,
1918
01:19:30,391 --> 01:19:33,226
even if you had
multi-millions in the bank,
1919
01:19:33,227 --> 01:19:35,895
would want to go
through that risk.
1920
01:19:35,896 --> 01:19:38,481
We would have been
possibly investing
1921
01:19:38,482 --> 01:19:40,566
five to ten years of our life
1922
01:19:40,567 --> 01:19:42,026
entering into a litigation
1923
01:19:42,027 --> 01:19:45,780
against a multi-national
corporation.
1924
01:19:45,781 --> 01:19:49,742
Frankly, it was my strategy
to not go down that road,
1925
01:19:49,743 --> 01:19:53,079
but to, of course, make
it appear that we would.
1926
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:54,039
♪
1927
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:56,249
We're going back so far in time.
1928
01:19:56,250 --> 01:19:59,711
If we're going to assume
that all of these things
1929
01:19:59,712 --> 01:20:02,505
that people said in
the press were true
1930
01:20:02,506 --> 01:20:05,258
about Bill Finger and
about his contribution
1931
01:20:05,259 --> 01:20:06,884
and the way it went down,
1932
01:20:06,885 --> 01:20:12,140
then they each own half
of Batman as a whole.
1933
01:20:12,141 --> 01:20:15,101
There could be an argument
from the corporation's side
1934
01:20:15,102 --> 01:20:19,397
that it's not a joint work
because he was employee.
1935
01:20:19,398 --> 01:20:22,025
I've never heard of any document
1936
01:20:22,026 --> 01:20:23,901
that said that he was.
1937
01:20:23,902 --> 01:20:26,070
I never heard of
a document that said
1938
01:20:26,071 --> 01:20:28,656
he was working under
a work for hire.
1939
01:20:28,657 --> 01:20:30,450
So, here's step one and step two
1940
01:20:30,451 --> 01:20:31,492
and step three and step four
1941
01:20:31,493 --> 01:20:34,329
and all this leads
to, hypothetically,
1942
01:20:34,330 --> 01:20:36,247
yeah, you take it back.
1943
01:20:36,248 --> 01:20:38,291
That's the leverage
of the copyright law,
1944
01:20:38,292 --> 01:20:40,585
to actually allow
people to take it back
1945
01:20:40,586 --> 01:20:42,754
or to put that large corporation
1946
01:20:42,755 --> 01:20:45,298
in the position of
having to renegotiate
1947
01:20:45,299 --> 01:20:48,301
their royalties
or whatever it is.
1948
01:20:48,302 --> 01:20:50,720
I do believe that there
was risk on both sides
1949
01:20:50,721 --> 01:20:55,516
and we had highlighted
enough of that risk
1950
01:20:55,517 --> 01:20:57,810
to get them to talk to us,
1951
01:20:57,811 --> 01:20:59,562
and that was the goal.
1952
01:20:59,563 --> 01:21:01,814
♪
1953
01:21:01,815 --> 01:21:03,149
I didn't imagine that I would
1954
01:21:03,150 --> 01:21:05,610
actually be at
the final meeting,
1955
01:21:05,611 --> 01:21:07,612
but it took place in July,
1956
01:21:07,613 --> 01:21:10,073
it was closed door negotiations,
1957
01:21:10,074 --> 01:21:14,577
and it was a big deal on
so many different levels.
1958
01:21:14,578 --> 01:21:15,578
♪
1959
01:21:15,579 --> 01:21:17,580
Somebody has a goal and
somebody else has a goal
1960
01:21:17,581 --> 01:21:19,248
and how do you negotiate
1961
01:21:19,249 --> 01:21:20,917
and maybe not
make everybody happy,
1962
01:21:20,918 --> 01:21:24,128
but make everyone
not horribly miserable.
1963
01:21:24,129 --> 01:21:25,213
I don't know if they could tell,
1964
01:21:25,214 --> 01:21:28,007
but I was very nervous.
1965
01:21:28,008 --> 01:21:29,675
We really wanted to get credit,
1966
01:21:29,676 --> 01:21:33,137
but we didn't know which
way this was going to go,
1967
01:21:33,138 --> 01:21:34,514
we really didn't.
1968
01:21:34,515 --> 01:21:38,142
♪
1969
01:21:38,143 --> 01:21:39,852
There came a point where
I wasn't leading the charge
1970
01:21:39,853 --> 01:21:41,646
anymore because I'm not family,
1971
01:21:41,647 --> 01:21:44,857
and there's only so far I
can go without being family.
1972
01:21:44,858 --> 01:21:47,068
Hey, Raf-bear.
1973
01:21:47,069 --> 01:21:48,194
- Good to see you, boy.
- Hello.
1974
01:21:48,195 --> 01:21:49,654
- How's my favorite fuzzball?
- Good.
1975
01:21:49,655 --> 01:21:50,655
Yeah?
1976
01:21:50,656 --> 01:21:53,157
So in the summer of 2015,
1977
01:21:53,158 --> 01:21:54,367
everything was building.
1978
01:21:54,368 --> 01:21:55,368
I could feel it.
1979
01:21:55,369 --> 01:21:57,328
And in September,
1980
01:21:57,329 --> 01:22:00,206
it felt like we were getting
to that tipping point.
1981
01:22:00,207 --> 01:22:01,916
♪
1982
01:22:01,917 --> 01:22:05,336
It was September
18th, it was a Friday.
1983
01:22:05,337 --> 01:22:06,629
I travel a lot,
1984
01:22:06,630 --> 01:22:07,713
but I happened to
be home that day,
1985
01:22:07,714 --> 01:22:09,590
In fact, I was home alone.
1986
01:22:09,591 --> 01:22:13,177
And by chance I had
this set of things
1987
01:22:13,178 --> 01:22:15,888
I had to do for the day,
and, very atypically,
1988
01:22:15,889 --> 01:22:19,225
I finished it
pretty much before noon.
1989
01:22:19,226 --> 01:22:21,310
And the tweets and the emails
1990
01:22:21,311 --> 01:22:23,104
and the blog posts
and the Facebook posts
1991
01:22:23,105 --> 01:22:24,439
started to pour in.
1992
01:22:24,440 --> 01:22:25,940
And I had a couple
hours to myself
1993
01:22:25,941 --> 01:22:29,527
where I was just
catatonic almost.
1994
01:22:29,528 --> 01:22:31,904
The first person in
my family to come home
1995
01:22:31,905 --> 01:22:33,364
was my daughter.
1996
01:22:33,365 --> 01:22:34,907
♪
1997
01:22:34,908 --> 01:22:36,409
Did you see it?
1998
01:22:36,410 --> 01:22:38,161
Yeah!
1999
01:22:38,162 --> 01:22:39,495
What did it say?
2000
01:22:39,496 --> 01:22:41,998
"DC to give Bill
Finger official credit
2001
01:22:41,999 --> 01:22:46,252
on 'Batman'" versus, I think,
"'Superman' and 'Gotham'"?
2002
01:22:46,253 --> 01:22:47,420
Mm-hm.
2003
01:22:47,421 --> 01:22:49,255
They're giving him the credit?
2004
01:22:49,256 --> 01:22:51,382
They're giving him credit now.
2005
01:22:51,383 --> 01:22:52,925
What?
2006
01:22:52,926 --> 01:22:53,968
What?
2007
01:22:53,969 --> 01:22:55,261
(laughs)
2008
01:22:55,262 --> 01:22:57,680
How did you do that?
2009
01:22:57,681 --> 01:22:59,599
How did you do that?
2010
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:01,976
"You did it, Marc, you got
justice for Bill Finger
2011
01:23:01,977 --> 01:23:03,561
and righted a lifetime wrong!
2012
01:23:03,562 --> 01:23:05,062
You are Batman for Bill!"
2013
01:23:05,063 --> 01:23:06,481
That's Kevin Smith.
2014
01:23:06,482 --> 01:23:08,149
There's quite a big difference
between me and Batman,
2015
01:23:08,150 --> 01:23:10,776
but I'll accept that
as a nice compliment.
2016
01:23:10,777 --> 01:23:12,904
"Bill Finger getting
his justice."
2017
01:23:12,905 --> 01:23:14,447
That's from Kevin Conroy,
2018
01:23:14,448 --> 01:23:15,990
who was the voice of Batman
2019
01:23:15,991 --> 01:23:18,784
since the beginning of
Batman: The Animated Series.
2020
01:23:18,785 --> 01:23:21,287
"On my honeymoon
in Mexico from Ireland.
2021
01:23:21,288 --> 01:23:22,413
Just saw the news.
2022
01:23:22,414 --> 01:23:25,041
Thrilled for you, Bill,
and the Finger family."
2023
01:23:25,042 --> 01:23:26,626
But I'm pretty sure one
person who wasn't thrilled
2024
01:23:26,627 --> 01:23:29,170
was his new bride,
2025
01:23:29,171 --> 01:23:31,380
whose new husband is
tweeting about Batman
2026
01:23:31,381 --> 01:23:32,798
on his honeymoon.
2027
01:23:32,799 --> 01:23:35,259
But thank you very much, Burke.
2028
01:23:35,260 --> 01:23:37,720
"DC Entertainment and
the family of Bill Finger
2029
01:23:37,721 --> 01:23:38,639
are pleased to announce
2030
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:39,972
that they have
reached an agreement
2031
01:23:39,973 --> 01:23:43,351
that recognizes Mr. Finger's
significant contributions
2032
01:23:43,352 --> 01:23:45,603
to the Batman
family of characters.
2033
01:23:45,604 --> 01:23:47,021
We are pleased to confirm today
2034
01:23:47,022 --> 01:23:49,398
that Bill Finger will
be receiving credit
2035
01:23:49,399 --> 01:23:52,026
in the Warner Brothers
television series 'Gotham'
2036
01:23:52,027 --> 01:23:54,320
and in the forthcoming
motion picture,
2037
01:23:54,321 --> 01:23:57,782
'Batman v Superman:
Dawn of Justice.'"
2038
01:23:57,783 --> 01:24:01,285
♪
2039
01:24:01,286 --> 01:24:03,871
Our goal was to get
Bill's name attached.
2040
01:24:03,872 --> 01:24:06,082
That's what we did.
2041
01:24:06,083 --> 01:24:07,833
We changed history.
2042
01:24:07,834 --> 01:24:11,337
♪
2043
01:24:11,338 --> 01:24:14,006
But in 25 years of
writing Batman comics,
2044
01:24:14,007 --> 01:24:16,008
1,500 stories in all,
2045
01:24:16,009 --> 01:24:18,052
including the first one,
2046
01:24:18,053 --> 01:24:20,346
Bill's name appeared
in a Batman comic
2047
01:24:20,347 --> 01:24:23,057
as the co-creator,
or the original writer,
2048
01:24:23,058 --> 01:24:26,894
exactly zero times.
2049
01:24:26,895 --> 01:24:28,020
Because Bob Kane said...
2050
01:24:28,021 --> 01:24:30,439
I have often asked myself,
2051
01:24:30,440 --> 01:24:34,193
"Why has he been doing
this for all these years?"
2052
01:24:34,194 --> 01:24:39,740
And I do believe he's
just passionate about it.
2053
01:24:39,741 --> 01:24:43,995
He does believe in the
causes that he writes about.
2054
01:24:43,996 --> 01:24:46,747
You're probably wondering
if I found any photos
2055
01:24:46,748 --> 01:24:48,791
of Bill Finger in the backyard
2056
01:24:48,792 --> 01:24:51,377
mowing the lawn
with his shirt off.
2057
01:24:51,378 --> 01:24:54,463
And the answer is
yes, yes, I did.
2058
01:24:54,464 --> 01:24:56,173
(laughter)
2059
01:24:56,174 --> 01:24:57,967
You're welcome, ladies.
2060
01:24:57,968 --> 01:24:59,969
The driving force though, still,
2061
01:24:59,970 --> 01:25:01,637
is to right a wrong
2062
01:25:01,638 --> 01:25:04,056
and to try to stay
on that good side.
2063
01:25:04,057 --> 01:25:05,766
So you can't see Bill
too well from where you are,
2064
01:25:05,767 --> 01:25:07,059
but he's there in the shadows.
2065
01:25:07,060 --> 01:25:09,895
Marc always strives for equality
2066
01:25:09,896 --> 01:25:12,315
and it's really his whole being,
2067
01:25:12,316 --> 01:25:13,566
I mean, that's him.
2068
01:25:13,567 --> 01:25:15,860
He's very brave,
he's a very brave person.
2069
01:25:15,861 --> 01:25:18,738
He really... if he thinks
that something is not fair,
2070
01:25:18,739 --> 01:25:19,905
he will go for it.
2071
01:25:19,906 --> 01:25:23,034
So I think that this is
not the end, to be honest.
2072
01:25:23,035 --> 01:25:24,410
There's always
more to the story.
2073
01:25:24,411 --> 01:25:26,245
I mean, what I always
say is that no story
2074
01:25:26,246 --> 01:25:28,080
from history ends in a period.
2075
01:25:28,081 --> 01:25:29,707
They all end in a dot, dot, dot.
2076
01:25:29,708 --> 01:25:30,791
We're just waiting for someone
2077
01:25:30,792 --> 01:25:32,543
to find the next part.
2078
01:25:32,544 --> 01:25:40,544
♪
2079
01:25:41,762 --> 01:25:43,596
Do you want to do
lashes as well?
2080
01:25:43,597 --> 01:25:45,598
- Sure.
- Yeah?
2081
01:25:45,599 --> 01:25:47,600
Again, I'm going to be
on film and stuff,
2082
01:25:47,601 --> 01:25:48,684
- so I want to...
- Yeah, we can add
2083
01:25:48,685 --> 01:25:51,103
- the lashes if you like.
- Okay.
2084
01:25:51,104 --> 01:25:53,731
So what are you
guys filming for?
2085
01:25:53,732 --> 01:25:56,984
It's a documentary
about my grandfather.
2086
01:25:56,985 --> 01:25:59,278
He was the original writer
2087
01:25:59,279 --> 01:26:00,988
and co-creator of Batman.
2088
01:26:00,989 --> 01:26:02,365
- No kidding.
- Mm-hm.
2089
01:26:02,366 --> 01:26:03,449
That is awesome.
2090
01:26:03,450 --> 01:26:04,533
(laughs)
2091
01:26:04,534 --> 01:26:12,534
♪
2092
01:26:14,127 --> 01:26:15,795
I don't have black socks.
2093
01:26:15,796 --> 01:26:23,796
♪
2094
01:26:27,057 --> 01:26:28,599
Almost there.
2095
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:35,564
♪
2096
01:26:35,565 --> 01:26:36,649
All right, Alethia, tell me,
2097
01:26:36,650 --> 01:26:38,442
is it okay with the leather?
2098
01:26:38,443 --> 01:26:46,443
♪
2099
01:26:49,037 --> 01:26:51,664
This is my tenth
Batman premiere,
2100
01:26:51,665 --> 01:26:53,999
but it's very special
because this is the first time
2101
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:56,210
that Bill Finger is
getting onscreen credit
2102
01:26:56,211 --> 01:26:57,920
in a major motion picture
2103
01:26:57,921 --> 01:27:00,131
for his co-creation of Batman.
2104
01:27:00,132 --> 01:27:02,466
And that's very,
very exciting to me.
2105
01:27:02,467 --> 01:27:04,760
It's amazing that
so many years later,
2106
01:27:04,761 --> 01:27:07,471
we are now en route
with his granddaughters
2107
01:27:07,472 --> 01:27:10,099
and great-grandson
going to a premiere
2108
01:27:10,100 --> 01:27:12,935
in which his name finally is
going to be up on the screen.
2109
01:27:12,936 --> 01:27:14,770
I'm very excited.
2110
01:27:14,771 --> 01:27:18,399
♪
2111
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:21,694
It was a curse in our lives.
2112
01:27:21,695 --> 01:27:24,864
Bill was unknown, unrespected.
2113
01:27:24,865 --> 01:27:27,324
My dad was in the same position.
2114
01:27:27,325 --> 01:27:31,036
I was trying to cope
with my father's death.
2115
01:27:31,037 --> 01:27:32,830
I'm hoping that I've broken that
2116
01:27:32,831 --> 01:27:35,082
by getting the closure for Bill,
2117
01:27:35,083 --> 01:27:38,544
for myself, and for my son,
2118
01:27:38,545 --> 01:27:40,045
so that we can move forward
2119
01:27:40,046 --> 01:27:44,091
and not have this dark cloud
2120
01:27:44,092 --> 01:27:45,926
following us around.
2121
01:27:45,927 --> 01:27:51,223
♪
2122
01:27:51,224 --> 01:27:53,684
It's been ten years that
I've been telling this story,
2123
01:27:53,685 --> 01:27:56,729
and to hear that Bill
died and was buried
2124
01:27:56,730 --> 01:27:58,731
in a pauper's grave,
in a potter's field,
2125
01:27:58,732 --> 01:28:00,065
was devastating,
2126
01:28:00,066 --> 01:28:02,443
and that was the only
story that anybody knew.
2127
01:28:02,444 --> 01:28:04,737
♪
2128
01:28:04,738 --> 01:28:09,450
Until I found two people
who both knew Fred,
2129
01:28:09,451 --> 01:28:10,743
Bill's son,
2130
01:28:10,744 --> 01:28:12,953
and who both told me
a different story.
2131
01:28:12,954 --> 01:28:16,791
♪
2132
01:28:16,792 --> 01:28:18,626
So what these two people said
2133
01:28:18,627 --> 01:28:20,878
was that Fred did come
forward after Bill died
2134
01:28:20,879 --> 01:28:22,880
and just... he was not
there the day that he died,
2135
01:28:22,881 --> 01:28:23,923
which is why he doesn't appear
2136
01:28:23,924 --> 01:28:26,967
in the medical examiner report.
2137
01:28:26,968 --> 01:28:28,552
Fred had his father cremated,
2138
01:28:28,553 --> 01:28:31,013
and he was living
in Oregon at the time.
2139
01:28:31,014 --> 01:28:32,473
♪
2140
01:28:32,474 --> 01:28:34,934
And he took the ashes
to the shoreline
2141
01:28:34,935 --> 01:28:36,894
near where he lived.
2142
01:28:36,895 --> 01:28:37,978
♪
2143
01:28:37,979 --> 01:28:40,064
Spread them on the sand
2144
01:28:40,065 --> 01:28:42,441
in the shape of a bat.
2145
01:28:42,442 --> 01:28:44,944
♪
2146
01:28:44,945 --> 01:28:48,405
And let the water come in
and wash it out to sea.
2147
01:28:48,406 --> 01:28:56,406
♪
2148
01:29:07,342 --> 01:29:08,592
Have fun.
2149
01:29:08,593 --> 01:29:12,054
♪
2150
01:29:12,055 --> 01:29:15,474
Uh, one "Batman
v Superman" please?
2151
01:29:15,475 --> 01:29:23,475
♪
2152
01:30:41,561 --> 01:30:49,561
♪
151586
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.