Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:08,000
This programme contains some strong language and
scenes which some viewers may find upsetting.
2
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,320
INAUDIBLE
3
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,079
After a sensational five-month long trial,
4
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,679
Michael Peterson will soon learn
the fate that awaits him.
5
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,279
The 12 members of the jury
are now in their fifth day
6
00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:24,799
of deliberations.
7
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,919
Will they find that Michael Peterson
8
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,999
used a blow poke to brutally
murder his wife Kathleen?
9
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,639
Or will they instead believe
the defence's theory, that she
10
00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,199
fell down the stairs in the
couple's Durham mansion?
11
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,680
A verdict is expected
in the next few hours.
12
00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,319
Has the jury reached a unanimous verdict
13
00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,319
on the issue that was submitted to them?
14
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,440
- Yes.
- All right. If you will give that sheet to the deputy, please.
15
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,279
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you
have returned the following verdict -
16
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,399
State of North Carolina
versus Michael Iver Peterson.
17
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,479
"We, the twelve members of the jury,
18
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,959
"unanimously find the defendant to
be guilty of first degree murder."
19
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,279
This, the 10th day of October, 2003,
20
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,119
signed by foreperson Christian Lion Jones.
21
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,479
Is this your verdict, so say you all?
22
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,879
- ALL: Yes.
- Juror number one, Mr Harrison, would you please stand.
23
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,199
Mr Harrison, your foreperson has returned
24
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,519
for your verdict that the defendant
is guilty of first-degree murder.
25
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,239
Is this your verdict and do
you still assent thereto?
26
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,279
- Yes.
- Thank you. Juror number 12, Mr Hall.
27
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,199
Mr Hall, your foreperson has
returned for your verdict that
28
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,639
the defendant is guilty
of first-degree murder.
29
00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:47,359
Is this your verdict and do
you still assent thereto?
30
00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:48,479
- Yes.
- Thank you.
31
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,919
Ms Clerk, the defendant is imprisoned in the
North Carolina Department of Corrections
32
00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:55,680
for the remainder of his
natural life without parole.
33
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,080
When the jury came in, it
didn't just disappoint me.
34
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,040
It shook the foundations of my
beliefs in the justice system...
35
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,280
..in human beings, in my own abilities...
36
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,080
..in, erm, my judgment...
37
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,040
..in my sense of reality.
38
00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,599
I think that what happened today
is that an innocent man was
39
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:47,600
found guilty based on speculation
and conjecture and feelings
40
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,080
and that is so incredibly troubling to me.
41
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,240
I didn't do anything. I am innocent.
I was wrongly convicted.
42
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,839
I didn't harm Kathleen
and I didn't believe,
43
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,560
until the jury clerk read the
sentence, that I would be convicted.
44
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,159
My immediate reaction was, "Let's end it."
45
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,199
And I told David that I
didn't want an appeal.
46
00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,599
I wanted to just end it right now.
Forget it.
47
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,320
Enough was enough. We had
all suffered enough.
48
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,879
That wonderful - awful -
line from Romeo and Juliet,
49
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:28,680
"All are punished."
50
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,599
I don't know what we
were being punished for.
51
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,919
I don't why my children had
to suffer what they did.
52
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,639
Why they were being punished.
53
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,640
But I did feel that, "Let
this end right now."
54
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,040
I have been here almost 3,000
days, over eight years.
55
00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,959
When I first got here, I thought,
"I'll be out in a couple of years."
56
00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:15,239
We appealed and we kept appealing
and every one of them failed.
57
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,399
And after eight years, I'm still here.
58
00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:22,039
And I began to think I may die in here.
59
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,319
It's been almost ten years
since Kathleen died.
60
00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:32,279
But... Well, there's this wonderful
photograph in my locker of her.
61
00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:35,919
Every time I open it I see it. And, er...
62
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,239
it's of Kathleen in the
Imperial Gardens in Tokyo.
63
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,639
And she's looking for Japanese,
because there aren't any...
64
00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,879
in downtown Tokyo, because
it's not cherry blossom time.
65
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,759
And that's how it always was with her.
We were always joking.
66
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,880
And we were always laughing.
67
00:05:53,880 --> 00:06:01,639
So, even though it's been ten
years, it's just like yesterday.
68
00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,799
She's just as alive to me,
69
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:09,400
and I love her as much today
as I did ten years ago.
70
00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,559
- '911, what's your emergency?'
- '1810 Cedar Street. Please!'
71
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,519
- 'What's wrong.'
- 'My wife had an accident. She's still breathing.'
72
00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:23,759
'What kind of accident?'
73
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,199
'She fell down the stairs. She's
still breathing, please!'
74
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,839
- 'Is she conscious?'
- 'What?'
- 'Is she conscious?'
75
00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:30,839
'No, she's not conscious.' Please!'
76
00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:33,839
- 'How many stairs did she fall down?'
- 'What?'
- 'How many stairs?'
77
00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:40,559
- 'Stairs!'
- 'How many stairs? Calm down, sir. Calm down.'
78
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,759
'No... 15, 20, I don't know. Please!
79
00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,119
'Get somebody here right away, please!'
80
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,159
'OK, somebody's dispatching the
ambulance while I ask you questions.'
81
00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,240
'It's at Forest Hills, OK? Please, please!'
82
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:03,999
REPORTER: Durham Police, this
morning, are investigating
83
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,079
the death of a prominent city resident.
84
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,759
Officers called this morning to
the home of Nortel executive
85
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,719
Kathleen Peterson, who was
found dead in her Forest Hills
86
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,999
mansion after apparently
falling down the stairs.
87
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,839
Kathleen Peterson's
husband, Michael Peterson,
88
00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,839
is a former columnist for the
Durham Herald-Sun newspaper.
89
00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:24,279
He also ran an unsuccessful mayoral
bid in 1999 and just last month
90
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,720
failed in a bid for a seat
on the Durham city council.
91
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:42,039
We believe that she was beaten, that
she was stunned and was bleeding.
92
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,759
That she probably recovered
93
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:51,679
and struggled in the doorframe
with Mike Peterson, to a degree.
94
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,399
And that he then had to
bludgeon her on multiple
95
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,279
occasions after that.
96
00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,400
And that she, basically, bled to death.
97
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,879
REPORTER: Michael Peterson's
supporters can't believe
98
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,439
he's charged with the murder
of his wife Kathleen.
99
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,639
Kathleen Peterson's biological
daughter Caitlin Atwater
100
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,959
served as the main spokesperson
for the Peterson family.
101
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,199
She stood shoulder to shoulder
with Peterson's biological sons
102
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,439
and their sisters, adopted by
Kathleen and Mike Peterson.
103
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,999
My mother and Mike had an
absolutely loving relationship
104
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,959
and there is no way that either of them
105
00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,760
would ever wish any sort
of harm on the other one.
106
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,279
In my mind, if Mike finds Kathleen
at the bottom of the stairs,
107
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,199
it's a reasonable assumption on his
part that she fell down the stairs.
108
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,279
REPORTER: Peterson's attorney, David
Rudolf, says the authorities seem to
109
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,479
have jumped to conclusions
about Kathleen's death.
110
00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,999
Kathleen and I were in
here watching a movie.
111
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,759
I'd gone to Blockbusters and rented a video
112
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,559
and we were watching American Sweethearts.
113
00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:06,239
And I think it was probably
around about 11 o'clock that
114
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:12,279
the movie ended and we took our
glasses and we came in here.
115
00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,199
I think there was...
116
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,639
I'm not sure... we probably
had another bottle...
117
00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,359
I know we were drinking
two bottles that night.
118
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,319
It was a nice night. I guess
it was 55, 60 degrees.
119
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,880
Very nice night. And I'd gone outside.
120
00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:40,759
We were just talking and finishing
our drinks and then she said,
121
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,239
"I gotta go in because I've got the
conference call in the morning."
122
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,079
I stayed right here. Don't think
I said anything special to her,
123
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,039
certainly not thinking this was the
last time I was going to see her.
124
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,679
And the last I saw her was when I was there
125
00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:59,599
and she was just walking here.
126
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,719
And... that's it.
127
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,759
That was the last time
I saw Kathleen alive.
128
00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:10,920
No, she was alive when I
found her, but barely.
129
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,599
'OK, is she awake now? Hello?'
130
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,719
(SOBBING)
131
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,200
'Hello?'
132
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,359
It's impossible for me to believe,
133
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:38,399
if that's the back of her head,
that that could be caused from a
134
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:44,639
series of missteps, or
fall, down 15 flights.
135
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,400
I mean 15 different stairs.
136
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,439
I can't see that happening.
137
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,919
The medical examiner doesn't believe
that it was possible either.
138
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,520
This had to occur from multiple
inflictions of blunt force trauma.
139
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,239
It just never occurred to Michael
Peterson that people wouldn't
140
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,919
believe him when he said that
she fell down the stairs.
141
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,559
That's really what this is all about.
142
00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:08,399
He thought he'd get away with it.
143
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,319
I remember Dad actually explaining it to us
144
00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,559
and he was just like, he was in shock,
145
00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:16,079
and he was just shaking, and he was like,
146
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,599
"I didn't do it. You have to believe me."
147
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,159
And we were like, "Dad, we believe you.
This is horrible.
148
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,159
"How can we not believe you?"
149
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,359
We didn't even know any details
yet and we were just like,
150
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,039
"We believe you, we believe you.
151
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,039
"We know it's not true. This is horrible."
152
00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,399
It was just so upsetting.
I couldn't believe it.
153
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,559
But it was so hard to think about that
154
00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:41,920
because, at the same time, we
were thinking about our mother.
155
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,760
It was like two bombshells,
I guess, hitting us.
156
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:55,559
We had a wonderful life.
157
00:11:55,560 --> 00:12:00,879
There were five children,
Kathleen, and myself.
158
00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,479
Two of the children were mine from
my first wife, Clayton and Todd.
159
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,479
There were two wonderful
girls, Margaret and Martha,
160
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,479
who came to me when their
father and their mother died.
161
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,559
And then there was Kathleen's child,
from her first marriage, Caitlin.
162
00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:18,599
We lived together for 14 years,
163
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,200
and we were happy every one of those years.
164
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,559
I started to have doubts, of course.
I mean, how can you not
165
00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:27,759
when you're hearing all
these rumours going around
166
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:28,760
and things like that.
167
00:12:28,761 --> 00:12:30,839
But it was the physical
evidence that allowed me
168
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,799
to actually go back and look
at the situation as a whole.
169
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:38,519
Because reading the autopsy report,
I think was the point at which
170
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,399
I was convinced that my
mother had been murdered.
171
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:47,439
Obviously the horrific intensity of
the wounds and the fact that I just,
172
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,039
to me, could not physically come up
with a way that you could get seven
173
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,719
deep lacerations on the back of your
head by falling down the stairs.
174
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,959
And she goes, "Margaret, did you
look at the autopsy report?"
175
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,799
And I said, "Yes, I looked
through them thoroughly."
176
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,199
And she said, "There's no way Mom
177
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,159
"could have just fallen down the stairs.
178
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,120
"There's no way." And I was like,
"You're not a doctor, Caitlin."
179
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:25,079
One of the hardest things to
deal with was losing Caitlin.
180
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,600
And so quickly too. Just like that.
Just never see her again.
181
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,439
It's never just Caitlin,
182
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,719
it's Margaret, Martha,
Caitlin in a picture.
183
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,999
And it never was anything
different than that.
184
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,040
We just had just a long
history, and she's our sister.
185
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,719
I did consider Martha
and Margaret my sisters
186
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,079
and my mother considered
them her daughters,
187
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:52,079
but my goal, my strength in
life is completely opposite.
188
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,680
It's in seeking justice for my mother.
That's what I'm here for.
189
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,679
- Good morning, to each of you.
- ALL: Good morning.
190
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:23,680
In a very real sense, this case is
about pretence and appearances.
191
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,400
It's about things not being as they seem.
192
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,319
The defendant says that
Kathleen Peterson's death was
193
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,440
caused by a tragic accidental
fall down stairs in their home.
194
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,399
And we say, on the other hand,
that she died a horrible,
195
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,319
painful death at the hands of
her husband, Michael Peterson.
196
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,359
This is one of the first
photographs taken of her
197
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:56,319
as she's lying on a steel gurney
in the Medical Examiner's office
198
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,399
after they've shaved her head
199
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,800
so that they can determine
where the wounds are.
200
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,799
This is where the rubber meets
the road, ladies and gentlemen.
201
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,599
They say it's an accident that
was caused by a couple of falls
202
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,399
in that stairway and we say it's not.
203
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,359
We say it's murder.
204
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,639
Agent Duane Deaver is the blood
spatter expert who's going to
205
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:30,640
talk about how he contends Kathleen
was impacted in this area.
206
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:36,639
Duane Deaver finds what he will
call are several points of origin.
207
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:42,119
And what he will also say is that,
from his perspective, this was
208
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,439
very, very important because
it was above the floor.
209
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,079
It was above the step area.
210
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,479
He will say that it's positioned in such
211
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:56,439
a manner that these can't be due to
an accidental impact on the stairs.
212
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:02,199
Can you imagine somebody beating
somebody over the head,
213
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,439
whacking them as hard as they
can - because you don't whack
214
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,119
somebody like this when
you're trying to kill them.
215
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,280
Imagine that there's no skull fracture.
216
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,079
There's no brain contusions.
217
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,359
There's no swelling of the brain.
218
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,279
There's none of the internal
haemorrhages, subdurals,
219
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,879
things like that, that you would
see from that kind of injury.
220
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,279
No, none of them.
221
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,479
Because the truth is not that
Michael Peterson decided to
222
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,239
beat Kathleen Peterson to
death with a blow poker
223
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,759
in the stairway of his home
after spending a quiet evening.
224
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,559
That's not the truth of what happened.
225
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,759
The truth is that Kathleen
Peterson, after drinking some wine
226
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:51,599
and some champagne and taking some
Valium, tried to walk up a narrow,
227
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:57,839
poorly lit stairway in flip flops
and she fell and she bled to death.
228
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,199
Everyone who really knew
that relationship...
229
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:06,959
Everyone... knew that
they loved each other.
230
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:13,399
Everyone who knew them knows that
Michael Peterson had nothing
231
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,520
to do with the death of Kathleen Peterson.
232
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,679
One of the most awful things that
could ever befall somebody is
233
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,839
to think to yourself,
234
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,680
"The only way I'm ever going to
get out of here is in a coffin."
235
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,279
And that thought - I won't say
it occurred to me often -
236
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:19,999
but every so often it would
flit across my mind.
237
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:27,240
And I would think to myself,
"Boy, he's there until he dies."
238
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:35,439
And it was only when all this
publicity started coming out about
239
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:43,120
Deaver that I started feeling like
maybe, maybe there was a chance.
240
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,559
The decision... Judge Calvin E
Murphy rules that Gregory F Taylor
241
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,999
has proved by clear and convincing evidence
242
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,519
that Gregory F Taylor is innocent of
the charge of first degree murder
243
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,600
of Jacquetta Thomas on September 26, 1991.
244
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,359
A Wake County man, who spent
17 years in prison, has been
245
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:16,999
exonerated by the North Carolina
Innocence Commission in Raleigh.
246
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,799
Greg Taylor, who had been condemned
to life in prison in 1993,
247
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,240
is now a free man.
248
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,839
The commission's three-judge panel
centred around the testimony
249
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,119
of one SBI agent - Duane Deaver.
250
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,559
Deaver admits to having
misrepresented blood test
251
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,719
results in the Taylor case.
252
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,359
The SBI has announced plans for
an internal investigation.
253
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:40,959
Deaver is a major character
in the emerging story
254
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,599
of the SBI's troubles.
255
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,759
At the bureau's crime labs, where
Deaver had been a key agent
256
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,999
and trainer, analysts charged with
using science to solve crimes
257
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,159
have hidden test results or
concocted bizarre experiments
258
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,040
to shore up a prosecutor's case.
259
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,279
I interviewed Tonya Rogers,
260
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,079
who was one of jurors in the
Michael Peterson trial.
261
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:15,159
She said that Deaver's testimony
was the most important evidence
262
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,399
presented at the trial.
263
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,159
Ms Rogers said that, during
the jury's deliberations,
264
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:27,999
they started off split, 6-6 or
8-4, but as they talked the most
265
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,839
powerful evidence that moved the
jury to come 12-0 for a conviction
266
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,479
was that bloodstain on the inside
of Michael Peterson's shorts.
267
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,319
The jury was convinced by Deaver's
testimony that the only way
268
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,800
the bloodstain could have arrived
there was through an assault.
269
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,759
When I heard what Deaver had
done in the Greg Taylor case,
270
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,559
it became clear to me that I might
be able to finally prove that
271
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:02,159
what he had done in Michael's
case was the same sort of thing.
272
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:09,599
In other words, ignore the
facts, ignore the science,
273
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,319
and do what you need to
do to get a conviction.
274
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,119
Ten years ago next Friday,
Kathleen Peterson was found
275
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:19,639
dead at the bottom of a
staircase in their home.
276
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,039
Almost two years after that,
her husband Mike Peterson was
277
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,559
found guilty of murder and
sentenced to life in prison.
278
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,679
Now Mike Peterson hopes a hearing
that could begin next week
279
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,440
will give him a new chance at freedom.
280
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,679
The district attorney's
office has seen some turnover
281
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,959
since Peterson's murder trial in 2003.
282
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,359
The original DA, Jim Hardin,
is now a superior court judge.
283
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,799
Freda Black, the assistant DA at the time,
284
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,159
is no longer with the
district attorney's office.
285
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,559
Tracey Cline, who is Durham's current
DA, will represent the State.
286
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,079
Some of the key players
have remained the same -
287
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,399
Orlando Hudson, Durham County's
Superior Court Judge, and
288
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,400
David Rudolf, who is taking on the
case pro bono, are back on the case.
289
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,279
Oh, wow, it's Ron Guerette!
290
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,199
Martha, Ron Guerette just walked in.
291
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,039
- Oh my God. Hi!
- Hey, girl.
292
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,559
I'm going to get up and hug you.
293
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,719
I'm on the phone with
Martha, with my sister.
294
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,199
- You're not a kid any more.
- Good to see you. I know!
295
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,999
- What have you been up to?
- Just working in this crazy world.
296
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,519
Yeah, I know what you mean.
297
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,919
He's trying to come back
from his near-bankruptcy
298
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,040
in 2003 as a result of working
on your father's case.
299
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,279
- Still working on it.
- Wow, it's been eight years.
300
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:37,799
I can't believe it.
301
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,999
- You've gone from a little kid to a young lady.
- Little kid?
302
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,199
- I was, like, 20!
- You were still a little kid.
303
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,159
- Yeah, I'm turning 30 on Saturday.
- Is that right?
304
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,719
- Yeah, it's been ten years.
- Wow!
- Yeah.
305
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,959
Yeah, because Mom died on the
9th and I turned 20 on the 10th
306
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,559
- and...
- Oh, that's right!
307
00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:02,039
- Crazy.
- That is crazy.
- Yeah, I'm married now.
- Are you?
308
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,279
Well, congratulations.
309
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,599
'Well, one thing about Radisch, Deaver
310
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,279
'and Butts is they have been
in this very courtroom before.
311
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,079
'They have. They've testified in
front of people just like you.
312
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,919
'Agent Deaver, Doctor Radisch, they
are tried and true. Tried and true.
313
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,839
'Because they work for us.
314
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,559
'Now to hear them tell it,
that scene was altered.
315
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,319
'if you believe that, you're
just going to have to believe
316
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,079
- 'that Duane Deaver is just a liar.'
- Pleasant memories?
317
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,839
'He has no reason in the world
to come up here and lie to you.'
318
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,199
- Wow, that one...
- Where she says you have...
- Where she says they'll
319
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,359
be back in the courtroom again
- it just gave me chills.
320
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:41,159
And you have to believe that
Deaver's a liar. Guess what?
321
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,279
And he tried to get himself
vindicated by blaming it
322
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,519
on the SBI in general
and that got him fired.
323
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,279
Well, after editing that stuff
for you for the Deaver clips,
324
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,679
my husband watched it too and
he goes, "This guy's an idiot."
325
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,879
- Yeah. I know.
- Greg Taylor was let out.
326
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,639
- How long was he in prison?
- 17 years.
327
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,400
- Yeah, he was in there for quite a while.
- Oh, my God.
328
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,200
That's terrible.
329
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,679
Like, it's just a little lie that
330
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,880
put someone away for 17 years.
331
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,240
That's devastating. God.
332
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,559
Greg Taylor. I live in
Durham, North Carolina.
333
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,119
49 years old.
334
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:30,959
When I was 29 years old, I was
arrested for first-degree
335
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:38,240
murder and tried and convicted April 1993.
336
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,759
I was 31 years old at the
time and I was married, had
337
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:53,760
a nine-year-old daughter and after
that things just kind of fell apart.
338
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,799
In the beginning you think that
the next appeal you'll be free or
339
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,039
the next motion filed in court and
then when those things let you
340
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,039
down, you come to realise that if
you've been let down so many times
341
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,119
so far, there's nothing to stop you
from being let down in the future.
342
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:25,359
And it just went on interminably
until finally when I had exhausted
343
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:32,959
all my appeals and I realised that
the chances were very good that
344
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,640
I was going to die in prison and I
had to learn how to deal with that.
345
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,639
I don't have faith in the system like
346
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,199
I used to have, but I still believe
- I hope -
347
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,039
that justice will finally
prevail after eight years.
348
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,639
And I'll get out of here.
349
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,840
I want people to see what Duane Deaver did.
350
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,759
I want all of it to come out.
351
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,639
I want people to see what
that man did not just to me,
352
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,559
but to other people.
353
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:33,119
He'd say these ridiculous things and
I just would not pay any attention.
354
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,119
I wouldn't even listen anymore,
thinking that nobody could believe
355
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:41,959
this nonsense of hitting Kathleen
42 times or whatever it was.
356
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:47,599
This re-enactment that he did.
It was just all a lie.
357
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,959
So, at the time, I just thought,
well, this is just stupid,
358
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,560
nobody's going to believe this.
But they did.
359
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,399
I do think that it's Michael's last chance.
360
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,039
It's been eight years.
361
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,839
He is now 68 years old and all
of his appeals have been denied
362
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,959
and this is really the best
opportunity that we're going
363
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,919
to have to prove that he should
never have been convicted.
364
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,080
19, please.
365
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,839
All right, Mike. They're saying
that they took your clothes
366
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,760
over yesterday to have them prepared.
367
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:35,680
Come on with me, please.
368
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,879
I remember just a couple of nights
ago, I dreamed I was there,
369
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,640
old man, lying on a gurney
at the end of a corridor.
370
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,399
You go to central prison and you die.
371
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,679
And you die alone, no family, no-one.
372
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,679
And you die on a gurney.
373
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,799
And I remember having
that dream and waking up
374
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,680
thinking, "No!" But it was
a pretty scary dream.
375
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,639
Mike, is this going to be
good enough for you today?
376
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,839
Is it what you want to wear?
377
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,840
OK. That sports coat? That shirt? Belt? OK.
378
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,119
INAUDIBLE EXCHANGE
379
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,879
- Sorry.
- MICHAEL LAUGHS
380
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,959
Judge, Mrs Zamperini wants to be heard.
And she is a victim, Judge,
381
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,439
because I believe that Mr Peterson was
convicted of first degree murder.
382
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,639
Her sister was murdered,
according to a jury.
383
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,519
So Mrs Zamperini would like to be heard
384
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,319
if the court is inclined just
to give her a few minutes.
385
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,799
- All right.
- Thank you, Your Honour.
386
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,999
Yes, sir.
387
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,479
Good morning, um, Judge Orlando.
388
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,479
I think you're aware that
I am Kathleen's sister.
389
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,439
In this court, that is very rarely heard.
390
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,959
KATHLEEN is a victim of murder.
We have rights in this state.
391
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,519
That is why there's a
judge in this courtroom
392
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,839
to make sure victims' rights are heard.
393
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,479
That is, in my opinion, the
judge's sole responsibility,
394
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,799
to make sure that there is clear,
fair, quality representation
395
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,439
for the victim, dead or alive.
396
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,959
My sister has lied in her
grave for ten years.
397
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,479
This Friday, ten years, she was murdered.
398
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,199
SHE BANGS THE TABLE Ten years,
I've been without my sister.
399
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,999
Ten years, her daughter hasn't had her.
400
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,919
And, ten years, the rest of us have
been alive and had our freedom.
401
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,999
But not Kathleen. Not Kathleen.
402
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,919
She wanted to live and she deserves
403
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,599
and should get the best,
best legal representation.
404
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,079
And there is no way I feel, sir,
405
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,279
that you can have this district
attorney represent my sister's rights
406
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,039
and feel you are doing the best
job by the citizens of this state
407
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,599
in having her represent and not the
Attorney General's office step in.
408
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,319
She is not prepared. It is
clear she is not prepared.
409
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,839
The office is not prepared.
410
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,920
Thank you very much, sir.
411
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,639
All right. The court, in its discretion,
412
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,359
will deny the motion to continue.
413
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,479
The court is ready to proceed.
414
00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,719
Your Honour, the key issue
during Mr Peterson's trial
415
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,039
was what happened in the stairway.
416
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,839
There was only one witness
called by the state
417
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,639
who claimed to be able to say
what happened in the stairway.
418
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,559
And that was SBI agent Duane Deaver.
419
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,959
He testified that the bloodstain
patterns in the stairway
420
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,799
proved that there had been a beating.
421
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,959
He testified that the bloodstains
on Michael Peterson's shorts -
422
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,199
and, in particular, there was
a stain inside the shorts -
423
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,119
and on his shoes proved that he
inflicted this alleged beating,
424
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,999
because he claimed he could tell
that the wearer of those items
425
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,079
was in close proximity to Kathleen
Peterson when her head was impacted.
426
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,959
But we don't have to take my word
427
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,599
for whether Mr Deaver
was a critical witness.
428
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,960
We can listen to district
attorney Jim Hardin.
429
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,359
'Now what does Duane Deaver find?'
430
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,799
This is the first area that he contends
431
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,079
is the first point of impact.
432
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,279
This is above the 15th step.
433
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,079
It's off the wall. It's off the
riser and it's out in space.
434
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,959
Impact spatter in the
crotch area of these pants,
435
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,879
in the back side of this right leg.
436
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,079
Duane Deaver said the only way that
can happen is if he's standing
437
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,519
over her with his leg
above her striking her.
438
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,119
'Now why do we know there
was a second assault?'
439
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,879
Because Duane Deaver says, and
this is absolutely critical,
440
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:34,839
Duane Deaver sees blood spatter
on top of the clean-up.
441
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,079
There's only one way that can happen.
442
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,279
If there's a second assault.
443
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,839
'He assaulted her,
444
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,679
'she went down,
445
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,239
'he continued to assault her, '
446
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,119
and that's when the
premeditation formulated.
447
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,279
And, of course, the only thing Mr Peterson
was charged with was first degree,
448
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,879
so, without premeditation,
the state's case failed.
449
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,199
And the state relied upon Duane
Deaver during the trial.
450
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,239
'There's been no evidence in this case'
451
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,239
that anything that was done to
that scene altered the walls.
452
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,159
Nobody was walking on the walls.
453
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,159
'There's been no evidence,
no credible evidence,
454
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,079
'that anybody did anything
to the stairwell.'
455
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,479
Well, if you believe that,
456
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,239
you're just going to have to believe
that Duane Deaver is just a liar...
457
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,479
and he has no reason in the world
to come here and lie to you.
458
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,719
'Agent Deaver, Dr Radisch, '
459
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,599
they are tried and true,
460
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,479
tried and true, cos they work for us.
461
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,999
What we didn't know then
about Duane Deaver,
462
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,559
but we do know now, is
that Duane Deaver had
463
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:44,039
a pattern and practice of preparing
misleading expert reports,
464
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:49,119
of doing shoddy and
scientifically invalid work,
465
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,599
of presenting misleading
testimony under oath.
466
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,879
He did it in 2010
467
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,959
at the Innocence Commission
Hearing, State vs Greg Taylor.
468
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,919
We never asked for a perfect trial.
We hoped to get a fair trial
469
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,039
and I know that this court did its best...
470
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,559
- ALARM WAILS
- ..to give us a fair trial.
471
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,639
ALARM CONTINUES
472
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,440
Thank you very much. I think that's my cue.
473
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,439
- It's Candace.
- Yeah, I'm sure that's right.
474
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,080
ALARM CONTINUES
475
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,640
WOMAN: Yeah, leave the building.
476
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,239
VOICES ON RADIOS
477
00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:37,799
PEOPLE CHATTER MAN: Everybody, move back.
478
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,199
- Back of the lot!
- Move back, move back!
- Man, let's move.
479
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,639
Let's go, man.
480
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,399
- It's a bomb threat.
- Are you serious?
- It's a bomb threat.
481
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,999
- It's a bomb threat?
- Yeah.
- Oh... Oh, my God.
482
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,879
It was surprising to see that >
483
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,239
40% of Hardin's closing statement
was about Duane Deaver.
484
00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:58,239
It was about his research,
485
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:00,559
- his testimony, and...
- That was pretty shocking.
486
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,679
I don't think they had anything
else that made it first degree
487
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,080
- and that was all Deaver.
- That was it. Exactly.
488
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,399
- Made me feel sick to my stomach.
- I know.
489
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,840
- Ten years a-wasted.
- Yeah.
- Nine years a-wasted.
490
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,519
- Mike, there you go.
- OK, thank you.
491
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,520
- Don't drop the plate.
- No, I got it, I got it.
492
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,959
My God, I'm wearing this
ten-pound boot on my foot!
493
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,599
- HE LAUGHS
- I can barely move!
494
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:33,159
What was so nice was to see
everybody and my children there.
495
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,439
I can't really talk to them.
That's not allowed.
496
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,439
I certainly can't touch
them or interact with them,
497
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:40,919
so that's very hard,
498
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,920
but it's wonderful to
know that they're there.
499
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,319
Should be in one of these here.
500
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,479
- Dad, we're here! We're here! Oh, my God!
- I know!
501
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,799
- Dad, we love you!
- Oh, my God!
502
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,359
- Oh, my God!
- I have never been so tired in my life.
503
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,239
- BILL:
- I can relate!
- Oh, God!
504
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:47,639
- But everything's OK?
- Yeah.
- You like LA?
- Yeah, I love LA.
505
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,159
- And you love Boulder?
- I don't love it, but it's good.
- You look great.
506
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,679
- Thank you.
- You look...
- Margaret's helping me with fashion tips.
507
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,079
LAUGHTER
508
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,879
- Well, what did you think of Candace?
- HE LAUGHS
509
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,439
- Wow, how was that?
- Dad, are you safe?
510
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,719
I'm afraid she's going to hunt you down!
511
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:09,839
And I told you that from the
beginning - don't hate.
512
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,999
- Don't get caught up in it. And you could see that in her face...
- Yeah.
513
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,119
- ..and her eyes...
- And her hands.
514
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,399
- Just CONSUMED by hatred.
- Yeah.
515
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,279
And yes, you know, I understand it.
516
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,319
But she can't be the only victim, you see.
517
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,799
You guys are victims. I'm a victim.
518
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,399
Um... You don't have to be
there all day, every day.
519
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,919
I want to, it's fascinating!
I'm so angry at Deaver!
520
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,959
I just want to see all the
crap that's talked about him.
521
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,079
- SHE LAUGHS
- You know, sometimes I wonder,
522
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,639
- "Where was I during some of that trial?"
- I know!
- Yeah!
523
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,279
- I don't remember some of that stuff.
- Yeah.
- He was so...
- He was so boring!
524
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,479
- Yeah, he was gross.
- He was just boring and gross.
525
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,679
- Supercilious, a know-it-all...
- Yeah!
- He was really terrible.
526
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,159
Oh, I... Yeah, I hated him so much.
527
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,440
Oh, God, lord!
528
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,479
- OK. No more crying.
- Whatever! That's going to make us cry more.
529
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,879
THEY LAUGH
530
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,679
We'll see you tomorrow!
531
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,359
- I love you, Dad!
- Bye-bye.
- Bye!
532
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,600
- He does look very tired.
- Yeah, I know.
533
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,400
- I don't remember how we got in.
- What's the...?
534
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,159
You know, we don't know
really what happened,
535
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,239
and so we have to live with
the mystery of her death
536
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:36,199
and trust that our dad didn't
kill her at the same time.
537
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:41,959
So it's kind of a hard position to be in...
I think... or it's a position
538
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,559
that would, you know, bring
up a lot of stuff, so, um...
539
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,999
So I've never doubted my
dad's innocence, but...
540
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:57,320
it's just, it's... just kind of...
I don't know, a hard place to be.
541
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,280
Um...
542
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,119
I was looking at here - photographs
that were taken from his computer
543
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,039
and most of them are of
homosexual military men
544
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,799
and they're all different types
of things that they're doing,
545
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,439
you know, multiple partners, but
they're all portrayed as being
546
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:30,240
gay military men, um, performing
sexual acts on each other.
547
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,879
It's not the type of thing your typical,
average citizen would want to access.
548
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,559
Not if they want to portray themselves
549
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,719
as someone that has this perfect marriage
550
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:48,599
or however he wants to make his life
seem so perfect, um, with his wife.
551
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,359
I loved Kathleen. Kathleen loved me.
552
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,319
I could not love anybody else.
553
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,119
She could not love anybody else.
554
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:04,999
That's the faithfulness that we...
meant to one another.
555
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,959
It transcended body.
556
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,199
It was much deeper than that.
557
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,199
- I loved her spiritually...
- HE TAPS HIS CHEST
558
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:21,679
..as well as physically, so I saw
no, nor did she see, any problem.
559
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,759
She would've been infuriated
by learning that her husband,
560
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,519
who she truly loved, was bisexual.
561
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,999
We believe that, once she
learned this information,
562
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,480
that an argument ensued
and a homicide occurred.
563
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,279
- State your name, please.
- Brent Wolgamott.
564
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,959
- How old are you, sir?
- I'm 28 years old, ma'am.
565
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,919
Do you remember when you
were contacted by a person
566
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,759
- with the name "mpwriter"?
- Yes, ma'am.
567
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,799
Did you all actually discuss
what you were going to do
568
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,719
when you were to get together
on September 5, 2001?
569
00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:01,519
- Yes, ma'am.
- And what we're y'all planning on doing?
- Er, having sex.
570
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,399
- What type of sex, sir?
- Um...
- Do you know?
571
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,959
- Can I say it? I guess, anal sex.
- OK.
572
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,719
- Did you get together with him on September 5, 2001?
- No, ma'am.
573
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:12,679
- Well, what happened?
- I had a very long day
574
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,399
and, when I got up there that night,
575
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,279
I just said, you know what, I'll
talk to him when I come back.
576
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,199
I'm just tired and I want to go
to Palm Springs, so I didn't go.
577
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,999
We found out he's bisexual. We found
out that he'd had correspondence
578
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,919
with a male, military
prostitute kind of guy.
579
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,999
We found out crazy stuff. I mean,
lots of crazy, crazy stuff,
580
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,279
but none of it really shocked me at all.
I mean, it was more like,
581
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,519
"Oh, great, this is going to
be terrible for the case,"
582
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,839
you know, "jurors hate this stuff,
especially in Durham," um, but...
583
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,239
Yeah, it wasn't like, um...
584
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:54,959
I was never presented with
anything that made me
585
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,999
think twice about my dad.
586
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,199
Did Michael Peterson
ever do or say anything,
587
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,999
either on the phone or in an e-mail,
588
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,719
that indicated that he was not
in love with Kathleen Peterson?
589
00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:09,639
To the contrary, unlike most of my clients,
590
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,639
he indicated that he had a great
relationship. Most clients don't
591
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,719
want to say anything about their
relationship. He indicated he had
592
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:19,319
a warm relationship with his wife and
nothing would ever destroy that.
593
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,919
To think that he had this secret
life going on is baffling
594
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,879
and it makes me think there are so
many things I didn't know about him
595
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,160
and it cancels out all trust I have in him.
596
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,439
Parent figures have always
been difficult for us.
597
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,679
Just having such a
tumultuous experience of...
598
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,959
losing our birth parents.
599
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,919
Living with Patty and our
dad was really tumultuous.
600
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,159
We were kind of tossed around a lot
601
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,599
and then we moved in with Kathleen and Dad
602
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,239
and Kathleen had a daughter, Caitlin.
603
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,639
And, you know, we weren't
anybody's natural children,
604
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,839
so we kind of...
605
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:06,519
had... parent issues most
of our lives, I guess.
606
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,199
THEY LAUGH
607
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,839
- Um...
- I think, yeah,
608
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,839
the thing that makes me so sad is
that our two constants, really...
609
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,399
I mean, Dad was the only continuity
we've had in our lives for parents.
610
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:21,960
Um...
611
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,039
And so I feel like that's why we
have such a strong bond with him,
612
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:33,119
um, and with each other, but
also Mom, Kathleen, it's..
613
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,840
She really was the first person who
took us in and combed our hair.
614
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:55,959
I just know that, um, my mom died
in '85 from a brain haemorrhage.
615
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,439
She had been having many headaches before.
616
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,839
I mean, there's... Many
people have said this.
617
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,119
That, um, she called her mother
complaining of headaches.
618
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,999
She hated doctors, like I
don't like doctors either!
619
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,879
Neither does Martha, um...
620
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,079
So she didn't want to go see one no
matter how much, you know, Dad...
621
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,359
Um, Mike and Patty, I
guess, um, told her to go
622
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:25,799
and she basically died before she
even hit the bottom of the stairs.
623
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,959
NEWS ON TV
624
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,359
'The murder case against Michael
Peterson doesn't just involve
625
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,519
'his wife any more - it involves
a friend who died 18 years ago.'
626
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,039
'Elizabeth Ratliff was a
friend of Michael Peterson.
627
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,759
'In fact, Peterson was with Ratliff
628
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,199
'the night before she was
found dead in Germany.
629
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,799
'Ratliff's body was discovered at
the bottom of the staircase in 1985
630
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,239
'and prosecutors have implied that
the circumstances of her death
631
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:52,159
'mirror those of Michael
Peterson's wife Kathleen.'
632
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,439
The two daughters that were
adopted by Michael Peterson
633
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,959
were the daughters of Elizabeth Ratliff,
634
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,399
that woman that died 18
years ago in Germany.
635
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,199
They were raised by Michael Person,
raised as his own daughters,
636
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,199
and they refer to him as Dad
and, as I told you before,
637
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,679
those two girls, who are now
grown up and in their twenties,
638
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,359
are supporting Michael Peterson.
639
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,639
So while prosecutors, on the
one hand, say Michael Peterson
640
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,519
is responsible for killing
their biological mother
641
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,839
and for killing their step-mother
who was helping to raise them,
642
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,319
they are saying no.
643
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:28,639
There's an autopsy report that says,
"Cause of death - natural causes."
644
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,959
- "The stairway killer." Is that the idea?
- That's what they'll try...
645
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,360
- He found a way to kill women 17 years apart.
- Right.
646
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,559
Once it became clear to us
that the prosecution was going
647
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,399
to try and use this evidence in Germany,
648
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,999
we went to Germany ourselves.
649
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,919
'We spoke with Patty Peterson,
650
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,879
'who had been there with Liz the
night before she died and who was
651
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,239
'at her house with Michael that
morning that her body was found.'
652
00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:04,039
There was nothing out of place,
except she was no longer living.
653
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,759
Everything was as if one would've
walked into a normal home.
654
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,039
- You know, there was no pool of blood, there were no...
- Spatters?
655
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,279
I mean, there could have
been a few spatters here,
656
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,559
but so small that they did
not register with me.
657
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,119
She was turned sideways.
658
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,439
- She was turned on her side facing upwards.
- Facing that way?
659
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,479
Yes, like that.
660
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,199
In the very beginning, I was surprised
661
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,559
when people made a connection
between Liz and Kathleen,
662
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,239
because there was no connection.
663
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:38,079
Liz had had a stroke. She was found
at the bottom of the stairs.
664
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,239
Kathleen fell down the
stairs, I firmly believe.
665
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:44,879
I saw no connection between those,
666
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,159
but now, of course, knowing
how it was presented.
667
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,679
"This person murdered, found
at the bottom of the steps.
668
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,999
"This person murdered, found
at the bottom of the steps."
669
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,240
Anybody would understandably
come to that conclusion.
670
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,999
Three, two, one.
671
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,879
The DA thinks that there's enough
similarity between the two deaths
672
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,959
that they've had Ratliff's body
exhumed from a cemetery here in Texas
673
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,879
and brought to the medical
examiner's office in Chapel Hill.
674
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,039
It was, like, my worst
nightmare when I was little.
675
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,959
You know, you'd have nightmares of, like...
676
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,559
your mother, your parents coming back alive
677
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,319
and, like, what they would
look like, you know,
678
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,520
just typical childhood nightmares
and it was like it was coming true.
679
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,839
They spent thousands of dollars
680
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,799
transporting her body 1,200 miles
from Bay City, Texas, to Chapel Hill
681
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,519
in order to allow the very same
medical examiner, who had already
682
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,479
concluded that Kathleen Peterson's
death was not accidental,
683
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,840
to perform that autopsy in the hopes
of coming to the same conclusion.
684
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,119
I expect him to be found guilty
685
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:13,879
of killing his wife and I think,
after the autopsy tomorrow,
686
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:19,959
people will have... issues, I
think, with the result of that,
687
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,440
as far as his involvement with
the death of Elizabeth Ratliff.
688
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,359
'They didn't prove that Elizabeth
Ratliff had been murdered,
689
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,999
'but just the jury hearing about
all this created this impression'
690
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,319
that Michael Peterson must've
been responsible in some way.
691
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,639
'This is just too big a coincidence.'
692
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,319
In my opinion, the cause
of death of Mrs Ratliff
693
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:47,960
was blunt trauma of the head.
694
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:54,239
- JIM HARDIN: - Do you also have an opinion
as to the manner of Mrs Ratliff's death?
695
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:56,879
- In my opinion...
- Objection.
- Overruled.
696
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,279
In my opinion, the manner of death
in Mrs Ratliff's case was homicide.
697
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,160
Court is now in recess for ten minutes.
698
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,119
'When I found out the evidence
of Liz Ratliff's death'
699
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,199
'and that it was very similar
to my mother's death, '
700
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,279
there was a possibility that I had
been living with a man for 13 years
701
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:23,799
who had possibly committed murder
18 years ago and, all this time,
702
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,879
there was this big secret,
something I didn't know about him,
703
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,400
and that's very scary.
704
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,200
DOOR RATTLES LOUDLY
705
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,880
Step right over here.
706
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,360
DOOR BANGS AND SQUEAKS
707
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:09,959
So what do you have?
708
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,519
You have two women murdered on
or pushed down, whatever...
709
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,879
- Oh! - ..two staircases, two different
countries... - Take it easy.
710
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,439
..and one man present with them each time.
Both ruled a homicide.
711
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,479
The second thing is the
blood wiping on the walls.
712
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,159
The medical examiner testified,
and I read last night,
713
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,599
that Kathleen Peterson laid there
and was bleeding for a time -
714
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:37,359
she couldn't say how long - for a
period of time before she died.
715
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,479
But it's clear evidence that somebody
was wiping the blood off the walls.
716
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:46,599
And then, how do you get past
the blood spatter on his shoes?
717
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,919
And then, the bloody footprint
on the back of her leg.
718
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,799
And judge, I went back and I looked
at the photographs in this case.
719
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,679
I don't know how high that
ceiling is in that home,
720
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:03,039
but anybody with common sense would
know that the blood on that ceiling
721
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,119
and on the wall did not come
from falling down the steps.
722
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,759
I grew up in a house that had steps.
I've fallen down the steps.
723
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:10,360
My mother's fallen down the steps.
724
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,239
Separate and apart from
anything Mr Deaver did,
725
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:19,679
Mr Labor and Mr Epstein
indicate in their report
726
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,959
that this was clearly not
a fall down the steps
727
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,279
and furthermore, Judge Hudson,
728
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,559
they indicated from wearing
the pants of Michael Peterson
729
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:34,279
that the spatter inside of those
pants came in an upward direction,
730
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,119
and found that, in their opinion,
731
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,839
- Mr Peterson was standing over the body of this young lady...
- Not true.
732
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,079
- That's just not true.
- ..when that spatter went inside of his pants.
733
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:45,359
Your Honour, at this time,
734
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,000
the defendant would call
Mike Klinkosum to the stand.
735
00:51:54,480 --> 00:52:01,959
In 1991, Greg, um, and his
acquaintance Johnny Beck
736
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,639
had been out in Raleigh that evening
737
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,999
and had been seeking drugs and drinking.
738
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,559
They had been together, because
Johnny knew where to get drugs
739
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:16,519
and Greg had the money and so
they were doing drugs together
740
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,999
and they ended up driving down
741
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,599
into a cul-de-sac on Blunt
Street, here in Raleigh,
742
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,079
and they sat there for a while
and smoked some more crack
743
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,999
and, then, at one point, when
they were getting ready to leave,
744
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,439
Greg decided, because he had
a four-wheel drive vehicle,
745
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:36,119
that he would go down this
dirt path out into this field.
746
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:40,919
And when he did, he got his car
stuck in a ravine out in the field.
747
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,599
As so, as they walked back into
the cul-de-sac on Blunt Street,
748
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,479
they noticed... And this
was in the early hours.
749
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:52,159
They noticed, um, what Greg at
first thought was a roll of carpet
750
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,999
lying in the road in the cul-de-sac
751
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,679
and it was really Johnny who
determined that it was a body.
752
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,559
And because they had been out using drugs
753
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:03,799
and Greg still had some marijuana on him
754
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,119
and didn't have a driver's licence,
they just decided to leave it be.
755
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,919
And later that morning, he
went back to the cul-de-sac
756
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,439
and he walked up to the police
757
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,159
and told them that that was
his truck in the field.
758
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:20,519
And they asked him to come down to be
questioned and he agreed to do that
759
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,960
and, at that point, um, things
started rolling against him.
760
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,679
They had found stains on the
fender and the fender liner
761
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,839
that law enforcement
thought might be blood.
762
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,199
So they sent these stains
763
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,039
to the SBI lab for testing
in the serology section.
764
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,239
The report that was generated
765
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:50,439
and signed by Agent Deaver
from the SBI lab said that
766
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,439
there were chemical indications
for the presence of blood.
767
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:55,279
That's what was written in the lab report.
768
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,879
What was not turned over or disclosed
was the fact that Agent Deaver
769
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:04,479
had gotten a negative result on the
Takayama test, which indicated
770
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:09,159
that he could not confirm that those
two stains were in fact blood.
771
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:14,279
And the lab report that was
given to defence counsel,
772
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:18,439
given to the prosecutor and
introduced into evidence,
773
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:24,599
Duane Deaver's lab report, did
it say anything about the fact
774
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,399
- that an additional test had been done?
- No.
775
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,239
What was the result of that trial?
776
00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:31,799
Um, Mr Taylor was convicted
of first degree murder.
777
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,959
- And what was his sentence?
- Er, he was... Life in prison.
778
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,279
Did you see in the report
where Agent Deaver stated,
779
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,879
in his opinion, there is
nothing scientifically wrong
780
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,639
with what they reported and
they did not hurt anybody
781
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,679
by not reporting negative results.
Do you see that?
782
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,599
Greg Taylor is the prime example.
783
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,719
He spent 17 years in prison
for a murder he didn't commit
784
00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:00,159
and if the results of
the confirmatory test,
785
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,399
the Takayama test, had been turned over,
786
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,519
I think that would have made
a large impact on the jury,
787
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,959
because, at his trial, the prosecutor,
788
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,519
um, in his closing argument,
789
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:14,599
several times referred to
the blood on the truck.
790
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,919
I think, even later, some
jurors gave their opinion
791
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,959
that the blood on the truck was a
major factor, um, in their decision.
792
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,519
It never occurred to anybody.
793
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,559
We thought they hadn't done all
the testing they should've done.
794
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,999
Er, we thought the testing
was probably not accurate,
795
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:37,239
but it never occurred to anybody
that they had done the testing
796
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:43,199
and just hidden the results.
Um... they're scientists
797
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,719
and scientists are supposed
to be about the facts.
798
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:49,759
They're not supposed to take sides.
They're supposed to
799
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,199
reveal everything they
find and not have bias,
800
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,839
but the fact that they held back
these confirmatory tests was...
801
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,039
was absolutely biased in
favour of the prosecution
802
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:06,199
in the way they conducted, er,
they prepared that final report.
803
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,119
So I was shocked, really.
804
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,559
We were all shocked.
805
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,719
You know, how could a lab do that?
You'd expect...
806
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:18,439
I'd expect it from a prosecutor
or a policeman or an attorney,
807
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,160
maybe a judge or whatever,
but from a lab, you know?
808
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:29,799
You know, where's the...
the sense of fairness?
809
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:35,279
Why do they feel like they have
to do something like that?
810
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:41,039
Um, you know, when I think about, you
know, all the years that I lost,
811
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,319
because of this, what I missed of
my daughter growing up, you know.
812
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,719
I missed her tenth birthday. I
missed her high school graduation.
813
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:51,640
I missed her college graduation.
814
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:54,960
I missed her getting married.
815
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,479
I missed the birth of my grandson.
816
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,519
You know, she was 26 years
old when I was released
817
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,479
and I missed all that. I look at
her today like she's a stranger,
818
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,520
cos I don't know how she
came to be about herself.
819
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,200
- Do you know which direction to go?
- Um...
820
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,399
HE GASPS
821
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:54,760
- Say hi?
- How are you doing?
- Say hi? Hi, Grandpa!
822
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,919
How you doing?
823
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:02,959
HE CHATTERS TO THE BABY, BECKY LAUGHS
824
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:07,799
- His first visit to jail.
- But he's been to prison twice already!
825
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:13,359
- Dada!
- He's seen you twice at Nash.
- In prison! That's right. Right!
826
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,399
His first time to jail, though.
827
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,119
The first through-the-glass
conversation! All those
828
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,439
little memories that you write down
in the baby scrapbook, you know!
829
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,799
- In his baby book!
- SHE LAUGHS
830
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,159
Oh, for God's sake!
831
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,079
- Oh, it's good to see you! God!
- You too, Dad.
832
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:30,999
THEY LAUGH
833
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,359
Oh, Christ! Now your ears
go back beautifully!
834
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,159
Yeah, everything's great.
835
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:41,119
- Work's going well, all this is good.
- He's a darling.
836
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,839
You know, down here with family,
it's stressful but, you know,
837
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:46,719
- it's nice to see everybody.
- Oh, yeah!
838
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,719
So do you think he looks like anyone yet?
839
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,279
- I think his ears are a little like mine.
- They are!
840
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,719
I said that to Margaret the other day,
841
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,719
because we were looking at you in
court from the back and I look at him
842
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,199
from the back and your ears
look the same from the back.
843
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,719
I had gorgeous small ears when I was young.
844
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,039
- Is he going to have hair or not?
- I don't know.
845
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:12,439
- One of these days.
- Some day! Some day!
846
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:17,440
When you see Margaret, would you
please wish her a happy birthday?
847
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,759
- That poor child.
- I know.
848
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,719
You know, I wrote about this day with her.
849
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,279
I was there when she was born.
850
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,879
Well, I wasn't in the room, but
I took her to the hospital
851
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:36,999
in 1981, drove her in a snowstorm to go to,
852
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,999
you know, Wiesbaden hospital.
853
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:44,599
And then, I was there every
birthday after that.
854
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,399
Every single birthday she ever had,
855
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,559
I was there until, I guess it
was about the 18th birthday.
856
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:56,599
Then she went to college. And
then there was the 20th birthday.
857
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,400
- Yeah, that one kind of sucked.
- Kind of sucked?(!)
858
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:05,919
Yeah, you remember that? Watching
the grid search of the house.
859
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:11,559
And then here it is, her 30th birthday.
Oh my god.
860
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,479
So maybe this is the last
I'm going to see of Dorian
861
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:20,559
until you bring him down for our
ice cream and tattoo outing.
862
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:22,239
Well, we'll see.
863
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,959
- So I'll see you Tuesday morning.
- Yup.
864
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,920
You're going to watch me
hobble down the stairs, OK?
865
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:34,559
God almighty! Christ. Don't let
them film me going down the stairs!
866
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:35,719
THEY CHUCKLE
867
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:39,840
Jesus. No filming going down the stairs!
868
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:42,679
I love you.
869
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,040
- Love you, Dad.
- Bye bye.
870
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:48,919
Come on, wave.
871
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,679
Bye bye!
872
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,600
- Bye, Dad. Love you.
- Oh, shit.
873
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:07,719
♪ Happy birthday to you
874
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:12,519
♪ Happy birthday to you
875
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:18,079
♪ Happy birthday dear Margaret
876
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:24,439
♪ Happy birthday to you. ♪
877
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:28,160
APPLAUSE AND CHEERING
878
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,599
APPLAUSE AND CHEERING
879
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:40,599
It was snowing, gently falling
everywhere and after many,
880
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:45,559
many hours of intensive labour, I
was at your birth mother's side.
881
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,879
Margaret at long last emerged.
882
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:53,879
She was exquisitely beautiful and
she looked exactly the same.
883
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:58,599
Lovely red strawberry blonde hair.
To Margaret, much love.
884
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,839
May the future bring you much
happiness and continued fulfilment.
885
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,599
We love you, dearest Margaret.
886
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,800
APPLAUSE
887
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:10,879
Thanks for coming, guys.
888
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,359
I hope your thirties are
freaking awesome! >
889
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:15,920
APPLAUSE
890
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:22,479
My 20th birthday sucked so
hardcore and my 30th birthday
891
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,799
is so much better, so thank
you guys for coming.
892
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:29,400
It's gonna just be a lot
better from now on. I hope.
893
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,640
So to all of you guys and to Dad, too.
894
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,879
Place your left arm on the Bible,
raise your right arm and swear
895
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,319
the testimony you're about to
give the court and the jury
896
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,199
in the case now being heard to be the
truth and nothing but the truth,
897
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,559
- so help you God.
- I do.
- Please be seated.
898
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:57,839
Did there come a time
899
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:01,919
when you were asked to conduct a review
900
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,080
of the SBI laboratory?
901
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:06,959
Yes,
902
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:12,879
in early March of 2010 we
agreed to conduct a review
903
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:17,599
of all serology files with
similar reporting sequences
904
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,159
as had appeared in the Taylor case.
905
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:22,839
The purpose of the report was to see
906
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,519
if there had been any cases of injustice.
907
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:29,279
Did you find that there were
at least a number of agents,
908
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:33,919
not just agent Deaver, who
were producing lab reports
909
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:37,839
that didn't have all of the tests
that they had actually run?
910
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:42,919
We identified 230 cases where
not all the tests were reported
911
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,759
in the final report that
was issued by the lab.
912
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:49,639
You would see a presumptive
positive and a negative Takayama
913
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:51,959
shown in the notes and then
you would see a final report
914
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,519
that simply reported the
presumptive positive.
915
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:58,199
And of the five cases that
were categorised by you all
916
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,799
as the most serious of all
the cases you looked at,
917
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,719
who was the agent on each of those cases?
918
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:07,159
Special Agent Deaver.
919
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:10,559
Were those the only instances
where you found that agent Deaver
920
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:15,679
had failed to put down what
his lab notes reflected?
921
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:21,199
- No, I believe the final total was 34.
- 34 cases?
- That's correct.
922
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:25,159
Thank you very much. Please answer
whatever questions the DA may have.
923
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:26,200
I appreciate it.
924
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:37,239
I got this group of French
people who are following me
925
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:38,640
around with a camera.
926
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,839
I think they want to film inside there.
927
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:47,239
- I don't know if you're...
- If it's OK with you it's OK with me.
928
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,239
- It's OK with me.
- Oh, you've come to share lunch with me!
929
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,359
- No!
- You were going to bring your own.
930
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,359
No, no, I'm not sharing anything with you.
931
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,719
Why are you hobbling around
like you're 80 years old?
932
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:00,279
- Jeez, 80?!
- 90.
- How about 200?
933
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:03,280
- Ask them what I looked like yesterday.
- Why, what's going on?
934
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,879
Well, I'm hardly the
Princess and the Pea here.
935
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,479
- You know, the story of the Princess and the Pea?
- Yes.
936
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,039
I've been in prison for eight years.
937
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,439
We don't have orthopaedic
mattresses or anything.
938
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,559
- They don't have the foam?
- No, it's pretty terrible.
939
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:24,559
I'm so used to prison
luxury conditions, you see,
940
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:29,119
that coming to the jail, sleeping
on cold concrete - maybe that's it.
941
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:30,399
Maybe that's it.
942
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:35,679
It's sort of like going from the
Westin with their Heavenly beds
943
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:37,040
to Motel 6.
944
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:45,119
So, she is not calling Deaver.
She is not calling any experts.
945
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,919
Uh, she's going to call
a couple of witnesses.
946
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,719
I think she's going to try to get
into evidence that Deborah Radisch
947
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,519
thought it was a homicide,
but neither of those things
948
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,559
has any bearing on it.
949
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,439
- As you say, that's for a retrial.
- Right, right.
950
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:02,919
I don't want to get too far
out ahead of ourselves here,
951
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:06,559
but if we get a new trial,
then the question becomes,
952
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:08,359
can they even retry you,
953
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:12,319
given the fact that Deaver
was all over that scene?
954
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:16,039
I mean, ALL over the scene, and
remember the photo glitches
955
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:20,679
and him smelling the wine and...
956
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:22,199
Yes, he's the one that did that!
957
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,279
- All of it. He did all of it!
- Such bullshit.
958
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:29,479
He did all of it. Get a
good close-up of him.
959
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,039
THEY CHUCKLE
960
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:34,119
Oh, another close-up right there.
961
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:38,719
How the man got away with
it, for as long as he did,
962
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:44,359
that's really a crime, because
you wonder how many other cases
963
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:46,839
there are - not high-profile cases -
964
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:51,479
but other cases in which the
man probably testified.
965
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,599
He made the difference of
sending them either to prison
966
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,799
or getting them much more time.
967
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:02,999
And I just cannot even imagine
that anybody would do that,
968
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:08,599
but he's done it for, gosh, over 20 years.
969
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:14,719
In September 2007, Dr Turner
killed his wife Jennifer Turner
970
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:17,239
and several months after the killing,
971
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,159
Dr Turner was indicted by
the Davie County Grand Jury
972
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:21,599
for first-degree murder.
973
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:26,079
What does Dr Turner say had
happened between him and his wife?
974
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,879
Well, the killing occurred in
an outbuilding of the property
975
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:35,039
that Dr Turner and his wife had
shared until they became separated
976
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,839
about 18 months before the killing.
977
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:43,079
Inside the building, there were tons
of stuff just lying all around.
978
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:46,639
One of the things that was lying
around was a large seven-foot -
979
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:50,039
I mean, for lack of a better term
- Viking spear
980
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,719
that had about a 16-inch
blade on the end of it
981
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,319
and Mrs Turner picked up the spear
982
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:00,039
and attacked him with it, driving
it through his leg near his groin,
983
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,279
through and through twice
and stabbing it on his arm.
984
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:05,439
At that point in time,
he went into his pocket.
985
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,799
He had a pocket knife with him
and he used the pocket knife
986
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:10,959
to defend himself and in doing so,
987
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:12,680
inflicted the wounds that killed her.
988
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:31,239
Did he in fact have wounds on
his leg that were consistent
989
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:33,679
with what he had said happened?
990
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:36,399
Yes, he lost about a quarter
of his blood volume
991
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:39,719
and one of those wounds
was about 1.5 centimetres
992
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,599
from his femoral artery, which they
also concluded would have killed him
993
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:44,879
if it had hit him.
994
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:49,799
I'm going to show you what has
been marked as exhibit 27.
995
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,559
What was the initial opinion
that Agent Thomas had
996
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:58,319
with regard to the shirt that
Dr Turner had been wearing?
997
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:01,599
Uh, this transfer bloodstain pattern
was consistent with a bloody hand
998
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,880
being wiped on the surface of the shirt.
999
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:13,799
What does the second report say?
1000
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:16,799
It says, "it is consistent
with a pointed object,
1001
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:20,399
"consistent with a knife being wiped
on the surface of the shirt."
1002
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,679
Was there any indication
in that second report
1003
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,120
that there had been a significant change?
1004
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:29,439
No, there wasn't.
1005
01:09:29,440 --> 01:09:32,879
What special agent Thomas
testified about is that the SBI
1006
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:35,079
and Special Agent Deaver,
who was working with him,
1007
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,639
had been presented with a new scenario.
1008
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,399
That, in essence, he had inflicted
those wounds on himself
1009
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,879
and entirely staged the scene.
1010
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:48,919
Following that, they, when looking
at the shirt, could it possibly
1011
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:51,759
have been because someone was
wiping a knife off on the shirt?
1012
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:55,879
Was that what he got out of that
meeting that Agent Deaver attended?
1013
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:56,919
Yes.
1014
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:00,279
Then it says, "I'm going to meet with Duane
1015
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:02,760
- "to do the actual reconstruction."
- Yes.
1016
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:12,559
- Who's filming this?
- Special Agent Deaver.
- He's present there?
1017
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:13,920
He's filming it, yes.
1018
01:10:17,440 --> 01:10:21,039
I think what they were
trying to do is put blood
1019
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:25,359
on just the outside layers
of the knife in the hopes
1020
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:29,479
that it would somehow duplicate
the initial stain, even though
1021
01:10:29,480 --> 01:10:32,439
he didn't know a scenario where that
would occur in actual real life,
1022
01:10:32,440 --> 01:10:35,400
where you only have blood on
the absolute edges of a knife.
1023
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:42,919
Nice good curve. Turn your wrist in.
Even better, yeah.
1024
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:47,999
'All right then, you might get
some just lightly on the fingers'
1025
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:52,960
and just kinda... up, up.
1026
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:58,319
'Beautiful. That's a wrap, baby.'
1027
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:01,879
Not in any effort to recreate any scenario
1028
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:07,599
of what actually happened that
night, but just to create a stain
1029
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:11,879
that might look like another
stain, that might refute
1030
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,119
what our experts said about
what that stain was.
1031
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,279
'There's a bloodstain
expert, Stewart James.'
1032
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:22,319
He's universally regarded as one
of the handful of top two or three
1033
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:24,279
experts in this field.
1034
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:29,399
He takes the video of the
Kirk Turner blood experiments
1035
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:33,799
where Gerald Thomas wipes the shirt
and Duane Deaver is filming it
1036
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:38,719
and he shows this video at
professional conferences,
1037
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:41,239
both in the United States and abroad.
1038
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:46,599
The reaction in the community
of bloodstain pattern analysis,
1039
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,439
he says, is shock, that everyone
just looks at these experiments
1040
01:11:50,440 --> 01:11:53,119
and says, "That is a bunch of malarkey."
1041
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,999
It's sort of what's happening
in Mike Peterson's motion
1042
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,199
for appropriate relief right now.
You can sort of know
1043
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:04,639
all of these anecdotal things and
you can experience individual cases
1044
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,599
like we did with Dr Turner and
other cases, but once you see
1045
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:13,519
all of those things synthesised
and brought together
1046
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:18,799
and woven into the same tapestry,
it's pretty devastating
1047
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:25,040
to see what can pass for science
and justice in a courtroom.
1048
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,920
Thanks, I appreciate it.
1049
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:34,319
Am I going to get a lunch today, deputy?
1050
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:35,839
We're working on it.
1051
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:40,639
This woman stabbed him with a
spear and then he cut her throat.
1052
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:46,079
You know, this is not a good
marriage here, but anyway...
1053
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:50,039
But then when I read that Duane
Deaver believed that the man
1054
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:54,079
had taken a spear and
put it through his leg,
1055
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:58,879
I mean, it just boggles the mind,
1056
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:00,880
that anybody would come up with that.
1057
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:06,120
I got an orange. Oh!
1058
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:19,119
You ought to feel how
cool this sandwich is.
1059
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:21,400
Just feel how cold that is.
1060
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:41,679
Mrs Sutton, have you been
qualified as an expert witness
1061
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:44,439
in the field of bloodstain
pattern analysis?
1062
01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:45,759
Yes sir, I have.
1063
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:49,399
I want to show you what
Mr Deaver testified to
1064
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:50,999
at Mr Peterson's trial.
1065
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:56,359
I'm gonna ask of you to describe the
types of experiments that you used
1066
01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:00,079
and what the results were, generally.
1067
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:06,119
Test 1 was to place a source of
blood a certain distance above
1068
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:11,119
a horizontal or above the ground
and impact it with test shoes on
1069
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,359
and to take a look at those spatters
1070
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:17,400
to determine if they were comparable
to what I found on the real shoes.
1071
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:44,479
The wearer of these shoes -
1072
01:14:44,480 --> 01:14:49,919
these shoes were actually directly
below the source of blood,
1073
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:52,599
which in my opinion is the
back of the head of the victim
1074
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:54,999
when it was impacted.
1075
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:58,439
Is there anything about these
experiments that you saw
1076
01:14:58,440 --> 01:15:02,719
that in any way supports
Mr Deaver's opinion?
1077
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:07,479
No. The experiment won't show that at all.
1078
01:15:07,480 --> 01:15:12,399
What the experiment shows is
that if you impact a sponge,
1079
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:13,720
it'll create spatter.
1080
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:19,359
That's a given in my field.
That's a recreation.
1081
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:22,919
That's trying to make a
set of circumstances
1082
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:26,039
and get a desired outcome.
1083
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:30,000
It's not what I would
classify as an experiment.
1084
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:21,679
'The opinion is that these pants are
consistent with impact spatters
1085
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:23,799
'that result from a forceful impact'
1086
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:25,119
and that the individual
1087
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:27,639
wearing these pants at
the time of that impact
1088
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:32,119
was in close proximity to the source
of blood when it was impacted.
1089
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:36,879
Was that experiment that you
just saw acceptable within
1090
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,679
the bounds of bloodstain pattern analysis?
1091
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,879
No. The first thing that
really struck me was
1092
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:47,119
as soon as he stepped into the stairway
1093
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:50,639
he pulled the short leg open.
That's not fair.
1094
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:54,319
If the question is, can I take
a step into the stairwell,
1095
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:58,319
hit somebody, and get spatter
back into my shorts,
1096
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:02,599
then I have to do it with as
natural a motion as possible.
1097
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:04,359
One thing I did notice,
1098
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:09,319
the target was placed more towards
the centre of the landing
1099
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:14,399
as opposed to back where the area
of origin was actually calculated.
1100
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:18,079
And of course, that's so that
you can have one leg up.
1101
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:20,799
That certainly could be
one explanation, sure.
1102
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:24,079
If it was back further, somebody
would be standing on the landing.
1103
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:26,359
They wouldn't have their
leg up, would they?
1104
01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:29,719
I agree with that and it would also
be difficult to hit that sponge.
1105
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:34,679
Are the experiments that you
used consistent with what others
1106
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:38,959
in the field use to conduct
analysis of bloodstain patterns?
1107
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:40,839
Yes, they are.
1108
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:44,999
Is it consistent with the
methodology that you learned
1109
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,160
- 15, 16 years ago?
- Yes, it is.
1110
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:51,199
- Is that true?
- No, sir.
1111
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,239
Is his methodology, as you
saw in these experiments,
1112
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:58,239
what others who are competent in
the field of bloodstain analysis
1113
01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:00,839
use to analyse crime scenes?
1114
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:01,880
No, sir.
1115
01:18:10,480 --> 01:18:14,640
Happy birthday.
1116
01:18:30,480 --> 01:18:32,600
I'm glad you were able to finally get here.
1117
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:44,320
Can't shake hands.
1118
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:57,800
Remain seated, come to order,
court is back in session.
1119
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:05,319
Could you please state your name
1120
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:08,239
and spell your last name for
the court reporter, please?
1121
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:12,319
Ronald Thomas Guerette. G-U-E-R-E-T-T-E.
1122
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:14,359
Before becoming a private investigator,
1123
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:16,839
what was your profession?
1124
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:21,039
I was a police officer in
Colorado for a couple years.
1125
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:25,359
Then I was a police officer in
Charlotte for about ten years.
1126
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,799
When did you first get involved in the case
1127
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:29,799
State vs Michael Peterson?
1128
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:32,759
About a week after December the 9th.
1129
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:34,719
Of what year?
1130
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:38,719
- Umm, ten years ago.
- 2001?
- 2001.
1131
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:42,359
In connection with this
hearing, did you review
1132
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:44,799
all of the discovery that was provided
1133
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:48,279
by the state of North Carolina
in response to the orders
1134
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:50,759
- that were issued by Judge Hudson?
- I did.
1135
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:54,479
Well over 100,000 pages, many,
many CDs, and disks, and...
1136
01:19:54,480 --> 01:19:57,239
- And you reviewed all of that?
- Unfortunately.
1137
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:03,639
All right. Did you review some
reports that Duane Deaver
1138
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:06,960
- either authored or was mentioned in?
- Yes, sir.
1139
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:15,599
On how many cases of bloodstain
pattern analysis or evaluations
1140
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:17,759
have you actually worked?
1141
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:20,999
I don't know for sure, but it
would be somewhere around 200
1142
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:24,519
that I have written reports on myself.
Now, that doesn't include
1143
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:28,239
the number of cases that I have
looked at as part of my training.
1144
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:31,519
And I continue to provide help
to others who are in training.
1145
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:33,359
I help them with their cases
1146
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:35,799
and I wouldn't necessarily
write a report on that.
1147
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:40,439
Were you able to compare the
results of your analysis
1148
01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:44,799
of the reports that he
wrote with his testimony?
1149
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:45,960
Yes, I was.
1150
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:53,719
How many cases were there in
total in which Agent Deaver just
1151
01:20:53,720 --> 01:21:00,039
observed bloodstains, either at
the scene, at the SBI laboratory,
1152
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:03,679
- or by looking at photos?
- Only 54.
1153
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:06,359
In how many of those cases
did Agent Deaver provide
1154
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:10,319
- a bloodstain pattern analysis opinion?
- 36.
1155
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:15,999
In how many of those cases did Agent
Deaver actually go to the scene
1156
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:19,279
- of an event?
- Well, he went to 17 different scenes
1157
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:22,639
between 1987 and 2003.
1158
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:28,799
How many cases were there in which
Agent Deaver performed tests
1159
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,239
or experiments before the Peterson case?
1160
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:34,599
Three. Only three.
1161
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:37,999
What was the date of the last experiment
1162
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:43,919
that Agent Deaver conducted on his
own before the Peterson case?
1163
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,999
Back in 1991. 11 years before.
1164
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:50,479
How many cases were there
in which Agent Deaver,
1165
01:21:50,480 --> 01:21:55,319
before the Peterson case, found
a precise point of impact?
1166
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:56,599
Zero.
1167
01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:59,359
I think Agent Deaver also gave
some testimony about falls
1168
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:01,599
and investigating falls, correct?
1169
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:04,959
That is correct... and stairs.
1170
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:08,999
Have you ever analysed bloodstain
evidence from a situation
1171
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:11,560
that was known to be a fall?
1172
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:19,279
Well... yes, I have been to,
probably, about 15 times
1173
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:23,120
where it was reported
that a fall had occurred.
1174
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:27,879
Probably five or six of those
times I was in agreement
1175
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:31,959
that a fall was involved. The rest
of the those, I was not in agreement
1176
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:34,919
that a fall was involved
or created the spatters,
1177
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:37,000
the patterns, that were seen there.
1178
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:43,359
Mr Guerette, how many of Agent
Deaver's cases did you find
1179
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:48,839
in which he had gone to the scene of
a fall to analyse it in some way?
1180
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:52,399
Well, I checked every word on
every page in these documents
1181
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:55,000
and the word "falls" never occurred.
1182
01:22:56,760 --> 01:22:59,920
- That's all I have, your honour. Thank you.
- You can come down.
1183
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:25,759
Hey! Good to see - oh! Look at those teeth!
1184
01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:29,119
So are you alive, or what? Are you alive?
1185
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:33,640
You've been hobbling around all day.
Let's see you move!
1186
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:39,039
- It looks like it's going well, really well.
- It really is.
1187
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:44,439
Yeah, it really is. I mean,
you never know, of course,
1188
01:23:44,440 --> 01:23:48,479
but I would think he'll rule in my favour.
1189
01:23:48,480 --> 01:23:50,439
Freaking... that would be amazing, right?
1190
01:23:50,440 --> 01:23:52,719
No! it's supposed to be the
way it's supposed to be.
1191
01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:56,679
- Either way, it's amazing.
- Well, here it is!
1192
01:23:56,680 --> 01:24:03,439
So with any kind of luck I'll be
out of here, you know... soon.
1193
01:24:03,440 --> 01:24:06,479
Obviously that's what we're all hoping for,
1194
01:24:06,480 --> 01:24:11,479
- but it would be so amazing for that to happen.
- I know. I know.
1195
01:24:11,480 --> 01:24:15,679
Yesterday, there were around 217 articles
1196
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:19,319
- from local papers to the Washington Post.
- On what?
1197
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:22,879
And they're just basically talking
about how all the experts
1198
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:25,199
are discrediting Deaver.
1199
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:29,799
But he really did convict me
with his points of origin
1200
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:33,879
and "the head had to be right
here, and so therefore,
1201
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:39,399
"if the head's right here, all the
blood must have hit out there."
1202
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:42,599
- And that's just bullshit.
- Well, it's so convincing, right?
1203
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:46,439
For him to get so specific and say
that it happened here, there,
1204
01:24:46,440 --> 01:24:49,279
- and there.
- Oh yeah, there's no question.
1205
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:52,399
And the thing with the shorts
and the tennis shoes and
1206
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:56,079
what David picked up and I had
missed also the second time
1207
01:24:56,080 --> 01:25:01,159
was the first-degree murder
charge premeditation only came
1208
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:02,560
because of Deaver.
1209
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:06,879
Enough about me. We've all seen me.
I'm sick of me.
1210
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:08,319
Tell me about you, kid.
1211
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:10,919
Man, my life has changed night and day.
1212
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:15,279
I've got this best friend,
this girl named Jasmine,
1213
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:18,759
- and she's lived there for...
- I'm going to have to come closer.
1214
01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:23,959
- I can't hear.
- Yeah so, you want to stand up?
1215
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:28,359
- You can stand up.
- Sit down.
- They're making too much damn noise.
1216
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:31,479
Can't you hear that shit down there?
1217
01:25:31,480 --> 01:25:34,399
It's buffered, it's buffered.
1218
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:37,280
It's coming in my ear. What
the fuck are they doing?
1219
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:42,439
Well, when am I going to
become a grandfather again?
1220
01:25:42,440 --> 01:25:45,479
I'm working on it - very
hard, I'll have you know.
1221
01:25:45,480 --> 01:25:47,279
- I'm working on it, hard.
- Good!
1222
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:49,039
- Yessir.
- Time's up, sir.
1223
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:51,199
OK. I got to go.
1224
01:25:51,200 --> 01:25:56,959
OK. I love you very much,
Dad, and put 'er there.
1225
01:25:56,960 --> 01:25:59,719
I love you and I'm so
glad to see you again.
1226
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:01,840
I'll see you, I'll see you, all right.
1227
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:50,079
Not to jump the gun in any way,
but we wanna try to be prepared,
1228
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:52,519
just in case this goes our way.
1229
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:57,439
- Which I don't know is going to happen.
- I understand. I understand.
1230
01:26:57,440 --> 01:27:01,199
But anyway, so, we've put
together about 300,000 worth
1231
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:05,439
of property - actually a
little bit more than that,
1232
01:27:05,440 --> 01:27:09,879
but enough property that
will secure a 300,000 bond.
1233
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:13,239
Kerry has checked into
electronic monitoring,
1234
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:17,639
Joan Miner has agreed to
allow you to stay there
1235
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:20,599
- for as long as you need to.
- All right.
1236
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:23,839
And I need to talk with her to
ask her if she's also willing
1237
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:27,079
to be a third party custodian,
which simply means,
1238
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:33,839
if you don't come home one night,
not only would the monitor go off,
1239
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:38,999
but she would call the sheriff
and say, "Hey, he's not here."
1240
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,920
- All right?
- What do you think? Seriously?
1241
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:48,079
I think the same thing I thought
before the verdict came in back then.
1242
01:27:48,080 --> 01:27:53,079
- OK. All right.
- I mean, what can I say?
1243
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:56,399
And... We'll finish it today.
1244
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,840
- OK.
- All right. Hang in there.
1245
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:04,280
- Goodbye.
- Thank you, David.
1246
01:28:09,440 --> 01:28:14,959
I feel like I'm coming out the
other side of a really dark tunnel
1247
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:19,959
that I've been in with regard to
this case, and it's different.
1248
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:22,160
I don't think anything will ever heal.
1249
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:29,720
What I felt when that jury came
back in October of 2003...
1250
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:38,519
..it was as devastating a moment
as I've ever had professionally.
1251
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:40,840
So that won't heal. That won't go away.
1252
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:50,959
But I do feel like a weight has
sort of been lifted a little bit,
1253
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:53,639
if we get a new trial.
1254
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:59,320
If we don't get a new trial, I
will feel crushed all over again.
1255
01:29:00,760 --> 01:29:04,439
So there's a part of me that's very scared
1256
01:29:04,440 --> 01:29:06,439
about what's going to happen,
1257
01:29:06,440 --> 01:29:09,159
because I don't want to be crushed again.
1258
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:12,240
The state and this honourable
court, please be seated.
1259
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:21,519
Judge Hudson, what do we
know now that we didn't
1260
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:25,919
and couldn't have known in 2003?
1261
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:27,999
We know Duane Deaver misled the court
1262
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:30,799
and the jury about his
training and experience.
1263
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:34,319
That he misled the court and the
jury about points of impact,
1264
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:37,279
that he misled the court and the
jury about the experiments.
1265
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:41,319
That he had a pattern and practice
of having a strong bias for the
1266
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:46,080
state, writing misleading reports
and giving misleading testimony.
1267
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:52,239
You had indicated that
you had worked 200 cases
1268
01:29:52,240 --> 01:29:55,880
and that you had been involved
in roughly 500 cases.
1269
01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:58,279
Yeah, that was an estimate.
1270
01:29:58,280 --> 01:30:02,919
Let's give Agent Deaver the
benefit of the doubt and just put
1271
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:07,879
aside the 300 he claimed he did,
which there's no reports for.
1272
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:10,600
What about the 200 he
claimed he did reports for?
1273
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:13,160
That was a lie.
1274
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:16,480
There's no nicer way to say it.
1275
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:18,919
He lied.
1276
01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:22,919
He only went to 17 scenes total
1277
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:27,040
and none of those involved a fall.
1278
01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:30,120
Not a single one.
1279
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:35,199
I have no doubt that a source of
blood was out there and that it
1280
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:39,359
was impacted creating those and
that they are not on a surface.
1281
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:44,239
Mr Deaver brings a sort of new
meaning to the phrase "often wrong,
1282
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:45,320
but never in doubt."
1283
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:52,759
He testified that way, as the
court I'm sure will remember,
1284
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:54,999
all the way through this trial.
1285
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,159
On and on and on.
1286
01:30:57,160 --> 01:31:01,279
We didn't know at the time that he
had left out of all his lab reports
1287
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:04,919
negative confirmatory results.
1288
01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:08,239
And the reason he didn't put those
negative confirmatory tests
1289
01:31:08,240 --> 01:31:11,719
in was because he didn't
want the defence to have it,
1290
01:31:11,720 --> 01:31:17,079
because they might "confuse" the
jury by pointing out the truth.
1291
01:31:17,080 --> 01:31:19,359
He wasn't just an expert.
1292
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:24,119
He actually became an advocate
for the guilt of the people
1293
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:26,399
whose cases he worked on.
1294
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:29,079
He did it in Mr Peterson's case,
1295
01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:34,839
and we know he did it in Greg
Taylor's case back in 1991.
1296
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:36,879
Not only does he do testing that's not
1297
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:41,839
accepted by anyone in the
field, but then with regard to
1298
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:48,719
one of the critical opinions that
he gives, he bases it entirely
1299
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:51,039
on this testing,
1300
01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:53,959
and testifies to the jury
that that's what proves
1301
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:58,600
Michael Peterson was there in
the stairway, hitting Kathleen.
1302
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:03,959
You relied on these experiments in
reaching your opinions, did you not?
1303
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:05,559
Yes, I did.
1304
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:08,319
As a matter of fact there were
several opinions that you've
1305
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:11,039
testified to in front of this
jury that you wouldn't have
1306
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:13,400
testified to without those experiments.
Correct?
1307
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:21,239
Uh, yes.
1308
01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:25,599
For example, your opinion about
the cause of the spatter inside
1309
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:27,319
of Mr Peterson's shorts.
1310
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:28,399
That was an opinion
1311
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:31,679
you wouldn't have given without
the experiments, right?
1312
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:32,759
Yes.
1313
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:37,399
It all boils back to his
ridiculous experiment,
1314
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:40,919
and the little victory dance
that Susie Barker did
1315
01:32:40,920 --> 01:32:43,520
when he finally was able
to get it into his shorts.
1316
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:56,319
That's the critical testimony that
basically says it's a beating
1317
01:32:56,320 --> 01:32:58,839
and Michael Peterson committed it.
1318
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:01,879
And there is no other
evidence in this trial,
1319
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:05,920
Deborah Radisch included, who could
ever say it was Michael Peterson.
1320
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:10,399
It's not just new evidence,
your honour, it violates
1321
01:33:10,400 --> 01:33:13,679
Mr Peterson's constitutional
right to due process.
1322
01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:18,559
You have a right not to be
tried with fabricated evidence
1323
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:20,480
and that's what happened in this case.
1324
01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:24,759
I'm therefore going to ask
the court at this time,
1325
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:29,839
as hard as that is, given
the length of this trial,
1326
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:32,399
to grant Michael Peterson a trial
1327
01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:37,079
at which the evidence can
be presented in a fair way,
1328
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:42,480
in an unbiased way, and then
let a jury of 12 sort it out.
1329
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:44,959
Thank you, Your Honour.
1330
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:47,639
One of the most important things
about the criminal justice
1331
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:50,520
system is the verdict of the jury.
1332
01:33:51,600 --> 01:33:53,879
I would ask the court by
looking at the record,
1333
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:57,039
what is the newly discovered evidence?
1334
01:33:57,040 --> 01:33:59,679
There is no newly discovered evidence.
1335
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:03,759
The same old, same old, same old thing.
1336
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:08,079
The defendant must show this court
that had they gotten all this
1337
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:12,239
information, that the jury would
have decided differently.
1338
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:17,039
The blood spatter, the blood
patterns, the wiping of the blood
1339
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:22,559
off the wall, blood
drops, spatter on shoes,
1340
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:25,719
spatter inside of pants.
1341
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:29,479
When you look at the injuries to her head,
1342
01:34:29,480 --> 01:34:34,799
when you look at how she laid in
that stairwell, when you look
1343
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:41,519
at the sweatpants with a footprint
on the back of her leg and when the
1344
01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:45,519
medical examiner testified, based on
her training and experience, and now
1345
01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:49,360
she's a chief medical examiner,
that this was not an accident.
1346
01:34:50,600 --> 01:34:53,199
How in the world would a
jury find it different,
1347
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:56,239
because Mr Deaver, a reasonable doubt,
1348
01:34:56,240 --> 01:34:59,960
is reason based on common, everyday sense.
1349
01:35:01,560 --> 01:35:06,799
It does not take a rocket scientist
to look at Kathleen Peterson,
1350
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:10,639
the back of her head, the
blood every which way,
1351
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:14,920
way up in the air, on the ceiling
and say that that was an accident?
1352
01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:19,079
Judge, I'd ask that you follow the outline
1353
01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:20,519
of North Carolina Supreme Court
1354
01:35:20,520 --> 01:35:23,720
and North Carolina Court of Appeals
and uphold this righteous verdict.
1355
01:35:25,360 --> 01:35:26,680
Thank you, Your Honour.
1356
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:38,759
All right.
1357
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:44,479
Has Mr Peterson proven that
Duane Deaver misled the court
1358
01:35:44,480 --> 01:35:47,839
into allowing him to
express certain opinions
1359
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:49,879
that you put up on the board?
1360
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:53,000
The answer to that question is yes.
1361
01:35:54,560 --> 01:35:57,999
Has Peterson proven that
Duane Deaver misled
1362
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:02,959
the jury about the validity
of certain of his arguments?
1363
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:05,800
The answer to that question is yes.
1364
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:11,559
Was Deaver's false and
misleading testimony material?
1365
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:14,440
The answer to that question is yes.
1366
01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:20,839
Is a new trial required for
newly discovered evidence,
1367
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:26,199
due process violations, and
for perjured testimony?
1368
01:36:26,200 --> 01:36:29,400
The answer to those questions is yes.
1369
01:36:31,160 --> 01:36:35,320
It will be the court's order that
Mr Peterson receive a new trial.
1370
01:36:38,560 --> 01:36:41,160
- About time, ain't it?
- It's fine.
- Thank you.
1371
01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:24,520
What do you mean "now"?
1372
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:31,639
It's impossible to say what happened,
1373
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:34,240
but I know my father didn't kill Kathleen.
1374
01:37:35,360 --> 01:37:38,999
I loved Kathleen more than
anything, but he didn't do it.
1375
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:41,439
He told me and I know it. I
believe that in my heart.
1376
01:37:41,440 --> 01:37:42,480
Thanks.
1377
01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:57,080
- Honest to God, thank you so much.
- You're welcome.
- I appreciate it.
1378
01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:01,800
This was fantastic. I'll be crying a while.
1379
01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:05,960
- Well, Michael.
- That was quick. I did not believe that.
1380
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:12,639
You know I told you when I went to
visit you the first time after the
1381
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:16,320
- verdict how devastated I was by that.
- I know.
1382
01:38:17,920 --> 01:38:21,359
You also told me it might be harder
on you than me and I told you, "Wait
1383
01:38:21,360 --> 01:38:26,159
a minute, you're leaving in your
goddamn BMW and I'm going back..."
1384
01:38:26,160 --> 01:38:28,839
I understand, but having said that,
1385
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:30,919
this has weighed on me for eight years.
1386
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:33,879
I know it has. I'm so happy.
1387
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:36,999
Jesus Christ. Eight years.
1388
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:39,199
I told your kids, "I'm
getting tired of this.
1389
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:42,559
He gets convicted and you guys cry.
1390
01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:45,079
He gets a new trial and
you guys still cry."
1391
01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:47,239
We're a very emotional family.
1392
01:38:47,240 --> 01:38:50,799
Now my goal is to walk you out of
this courthouse this afternoon.
1393
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:53,959
We'll see if we can do that. We'll try.
1394
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:55,839
Oh god, that would be wonderful.
1395
01:38:55,840 --> 01:38:58,119
We might have to carry
you, but we'll do it.
1396
01:38:58,120 --> 01:39:00,319
No, I'm much better now.
1397
01:39:00,320 --> 01:39:03,719
I suspect that some of
that was just stress.
1398
01:39:03,720 --> 01:39:05,999
Oh, do you think?
1399
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:11,239
What, my high blood pressure? Yeah. OK.
All right. Thank you. Thank you.
1400
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:15,000
All right, you can relax now.
Enjoy your gourmet lunch.
1401
01:39:16,680 --> 01:39:19,159
- Let's see.
- Oh, fuck it.
1402
01:39:19,160 --> 01:39:21,519
All right. We'll see you at 2:30.
1403
01:39:21,520 --> 01:39:25,160
OK? Thank you, David. And you too, Ron.
1404
01:39:37,160 --> 01:39:44,359
I have kept everything inside me
for years, and years, and years.
1405
01:39:44,360 --> 01:39:46,160
I think I could go on a roll now.
1406
01:39:47,200 --> 01:39:50,439
And I could cry about Kathleen,
and cry about my mother,
1407
01:39:50,440 --> 01:39:52,519
cry about my father.
1408
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:58,919
I could cry about Margaret
and Martha, Clay and Todd.
1409
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:02,560
Oh, all the things we've all
gone through and suffered.
1410
01:40:03,640 --> 01:40:10,880
It was just this ocean of
tears inside me, and... oh.
1411
01:40:12,200 --> 01:40:14,759
HE EXHALES
1412
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:16,840
I don't know, I just want to breathe.
1413
01:40:39,840 --> 01:40:42,759
We went to the gas station today,
and Margaret and Martha were
1414
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:46,720
on the front page of the newspaper,
right, but in a good way this time.
1415
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,199
So we had Margaret hold up
the newspaper in the middle
1416
01:40:51,200 --> 01:40:52,599
of a public location.
1417
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:55,479
Like, come on, Margaret, take a photo!
1418
01:40:55,480 --> 01:40:57,439
Something we would have never done before.
1419
01:40:57,440 --> 01:41:00,239
There were a number of people who
came up, like the photographer,
1420
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:01,839
that's like, "I work for a newspaper,
1421
01:41:01,840 --> 01:41:04,679
I'm not allowed to have an opinion,
but I'm really happy for you!"
1422
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:07,199
So many times!
1423
01:41:07,200 --> 01:41:08,559
Just walking around Durham,
1424
01:41:08,560 --> 01:41:11,280
it's like you feel that label
of Peterson over your head.
1425
01:41:13,040 --> 01:41:15,599
You're concerned that people
look at you a certain way,
1426
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:18,159
but like for the first time I was
like standing up, walking around,
1427
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:19,919
I was like, "Peterson, yeah!"
1428
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:21,840
It feels good to be in Durham now.
1429
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:28,919
We went to the cemetery today.
It was beautiful.
1430
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:32,559
Yeah, it was gorgeous, the
beautiful tree, the roses.
1431
01:41:32,560 --> 01:41:34,719
The rose bush, that's great!
1432
01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:36,359
It was really different this time.
1433
01:41:36,360 --> 01:41:39,999
I mean, it was sad, but
it was also amazing.
1434
01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:41,120
Yeah, to have that...
1435
01:41:43,280 --> 01:41:46,159
..because it's so fresh,
the memory of her death
1436
01:41:46,160 --> 01:41:48,439
and the funeral,
1437
01:41:48,440 --> 01:41:55,680
but to go there with this new
feeling was pretty remarkable.
1438
01:41:56,720 --> 01:41:57,760
Yeah.
1439
01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:18,960
- Nine-86.
- Nine-86.
1440
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:18,359
This one is shut right here.
1441
01:43:18,360 --> 01:43:21,919
- It might be in that bag.
- I've got you.
1442
01:43:21,920 --> 01:43:23,719
And a shoe lace for the tennis shoes.
1443
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:25,960
- Shoe laces are in the bag over there.
- OK.
1444
01:45:28,440 --> 01:45:31,479
I've waited over eight years,
1445
01:45:31,480 --> 01:45:34,519
2,988 days, as a matter of fact,
1446
01:45:34,520 --> 01:45:39,159
and I counted, for the
opportunity to have a retrial.
1447
01:45:39,160 --> 01:45:44,119
I want to thank Judge Hudson for
giving me that opportunity so that
1448
01:45:44,120 --> 01:45:49,400
I can vindicate myself and prove my
innocence in a fair trial this time.
1449
01:45:50,480 --> 01:45:53,439
I want to thank all the
people who have supported me
1450
01:45:53,440 --> 01:45:55,360
from all over the world.
1451
01:45:58,040 --> 01:46:00,879
It's impossible for me
to express my gratitude.
1452
01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:04,559
What I want to do now though is
to spend time with my family,
1453
01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:06,719
and with my children,
1454
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:09,879
and certainly, at a later time,
1455
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:13,599
I'd be happy to talk with
everybody and share more.
1456
01:46:13,600 --> 01:46:15,039
Thank you very, very much.
1457
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:19,680
Mr Peterson, what's the first
thing you plan to do tonight?
1458
01:46:37,840 --> 01:46:40,239
So I'm interested in how
much buzzing this, erm...?
1459
01:46:40,240 --> 01:46:42,680
It'll keep you up all night.
1460
01:46:44,440 --> 01:46:46,999
I can honestly say I tried it
and the only time it buzzed,
1461
01:46:47,000 --> 01:46:49,239
the transmitter buzzed when
I needed to charge it,
1462
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:50,919
- because I forgot to plug it in.
- Oh, OK.
1463
01:46:50,920 --> 01:46:54,199
Mr Peterson, this paperwork
pretty much says that this is
1464
01:46:54,200 --> 01:46:57,399
electronic monitoring equipment that
belongs to Michael King's company,
1465
01:46:57,400 --> 01:46:58,479
Reliant Monitoring.
1466
01:46:58,480 --> 01:47:00,439
We will make you a copy and make sure...
1467
01:47:00,440 --> 01:47:02,480
- What is today? 12/15?
- Today is 12/15.
1468
01:47:09,480 --> 01:47:11,800
I'll be able to finally become a Buddhist!
1469
01:47:16,400 --> 01:47:20,319
- Spoiled already!
- Oh, he's a momma's boy.
- All right!
1470
01:47:20,320 --> 01:47:22,680
We'll change that. We'll change that.
1471
01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:30,239
You guys both ended up
momma's boys too, right?
1472
01:47:30,240 --> 01:47:31,720
Only this guy right here.
1473
01:47:35,440 --> 01:47:37,920
- Well, champagne.
- Some champagne.
1474
01:47:44,120 --> 01:47:49,559
I cannot tell you how much I
appreciate what you all have done,
1475
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:54,159
and how long you have fought
and stayed by my side.
1476
01:47:54,160 --> 01:47:56,000
So, to you!
1477
01:47:57,960 --> 01:48:03,079
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, guys. Thank you.
1478
01:48:03,080 --> 01:48:05,839
Thank you, and then a second
toast, to the family -
1479
01:48:05,840 --> 01:48:08,799
Margaret, Martha, Clay, everybody else.
1480
01:48:08,800 --> 01:48:10,519
You guys just took this so well.
1481
01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:12,599
You were in there. You were suffering.
1482
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:14,719
But there's a lot of emotional anguish
1483
01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:16,240
and mental anguish that we had too.
1484
01:48:17,320 --> 01:48:21,639
You guys were just incredible, your
emotional spirits never wavered,
1485
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:23,359
so, cheers to you, guys.
1486
01:48:23,360 --> 01:48:26,559
- La familia!
- La familia!
1487
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:31,040
- Hear, hear! Sante!
- Cin cin!
- Sante!
- Sante!
1488
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:08,119
I can't share my experience for the
last eight years with anybody.
1489
01:49:08,120 --> 01:49:09,679
They wouldn't understand it.
1490
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:12,399
They have no way of
knowing what that means.
1491
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:15,239
I could say, "Well, I was
locked away for eight years
1492
01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:17,239
and I didn't have any
privacy or any freedom.
1493
01:49:17,240 --> 01:49:18,959
I was in prison for eight years."
1494
01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:20,679
People could say, "Oh, you were
1495
01:49:20,680 --> 01:49:23,399
in prison for eight years,
that must have been terrible!"
1496
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:25,399
Yeah, it was,
1497
01:49:25,400 --> 01:49:32,839
but you have no real understanding
of that, and I can't tell you that.
1498
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:35,719
No matter what I tell you can make
you understand and realize that,
1499
01:49:35,720 --> 01:49:38,279
and so therefore your world
1500
01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:42,760
is very different from
everybody else's world.
1501
01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:49,479
I wanted to come back to
who I was, but I can't,
1502
01:49:49,480 --> 01:49:56,239
so I'm still working about
me in this world out there.
1503
01:49:56,240 --> 01:49:58,639
Then with the realization also,
1504
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:00,759
"Oh, don't ever forget, Mike,
1505
01:50:00,760 --> 01:50:03,479
they're trying to send you back there."
1506
01:50:03,480 --> 01:50:07,159
"They still think that
you're guilty, many of them.
1507
01:50:07,160 --> 01:50:09,519
They want you to go back there
for the rest of your life.
1508
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:11,199
They want you to die in prison."
1509
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:16,719
So while you're trying to move
along, always on your shoulder
1510
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:20,439
is this heavy burden
1511
01:50:20,440 --> 01:50:23,840
or, in my case, on my foot
is a monitoring device.
1512
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:29,279
- David!
- How are you, sir?
- Good. Fine, fine, fine.
1513
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:30,799
Have you shrunk a little?
1514
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:32,439
I'm still taller than you are,
1515
01:50:32,440 --> 01:50:35,159
I don't care how much I've goddamn shrank!
1516
01:50:35,160 --> 01:50:38,039
- You look better than the last time I saw you.
- Well, no kidding.
1517
01:50:38,040 --> 01:50:40,999
If I was any worse, I'd be
out there in Maplewood!
1518
01:50:41,000 --> 01:50:43,439
Nothing much is going to
happen in your case, no matter
1519
01:50:43,440 --> 01:50:47,639
what, for the rest of this year.
1520
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:52,839
After that, depending on what
the Attorney General's office
1521
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:55,839
decides, what the Court of Appeals decides,
1522
01:50:55,840 --> 01:51:00,440
we could be back putting it on the
docket for trial sometime next year.
1523
01:51:01,920 --> 01:51:06,919
Then of course, the question becomes,
do you want to retry this case?
1524
01:51:06,920 --> 01:51:09,479
Or do you want to see
1525
01:51:09,480 --> 01:51:12,479
if some sort of a resolution
can be negotiated,
1526
01:51:12,480 --> 01:51:15,479
and there's lot's of
different ways to do that.
1527
01:51:15,480 --> 01:51:18,719
There's a no-contest plea,
where you simply are saying,
1528
01:51:18,720 --> 01:51:20,599
"I'm not going to contest this".
1529
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:25,039
There's an Alford plea where you
basically say, "I'm pleading
1530
01:51:25,040 --> 01:51:28,399
guilty, but I'm not pleading guilty
because I'm guilty, I'm pleading
1531
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:31,199
guilty because I don't want
to go through another trial."
1532
01:51:31,200 --> 01:51:34,239
I know guys in prison who
have taken an Alford Plea
1533
01:51:34,240 --> 01:51:38,159
and said, basically, "Fuck it. I
don't want to go on any further.
1534
01:51:38,160 --> 01:51:40,479
Let's end this damn thing right now."
1535
01:51:40,480 --> 01:51:43,679
But what that means is, you're guilty.
1536
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:46,639
- I mean, on the record, you're guilty.
- On the record, you're guilty.
1537
01:51:46,640 --> 01:51:48,519
Is there any way to do it, "I'm not guilty,
1538
01:51:48,520 --> 01:51:51,199
I don't care about any money,
I don't care about whatever."
1539
01:51:51,200 --> 01:51:53,439
I mean, I'm going to go on
with what you say on this.
1540
01:51:53,440 --> 01:51:57,159
Could the DA decide that
he's just going to drop it?
1541
01:51:57,160 --> 01:52:00,479
He could, but I don't think
he's going to do that.
1542
01:52:00,480 --> 01:52:04,319
So, realistically speaking,
the only three options are
1543
01:52:04,320 --> 01:52:08,079
a no-contest plea, Alford
plea, or go to trial.
1544
01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:10,279
Even going to trial doesn't
guarantee innocence.
1545
01:52:10,280 --> 01:52:11,719
Oh, no, but it gives me an option.
1546
01:52:11,720 --> 01:52:15,439
The other two, there's no option.
You're basically guilty.
1547
01:52:15,440 --> 01:52:19,799
You see the whole thing is, I didn't
do it, so why would I even do this?
1548
01:52:19,800 --> 01:52:24,480
I think we don't need
to discuss that today.
1549
01:52:26,520 --> 01:52:29,799
I mean, this isn't going to be until
maybe the middle of next year?
1550
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:33,759
- At least.
- At least?
- Nothing's going to happen quickly here.
1551
01:52:33,760 --> 01:52:35,880
Jesus. OK. All right.
1552
01:53:00,560 --> 01:53:03,679
I can remember when I was a very young man,
1553
01:53:03,680 --> 01:53:08,599
I said, "I'm going to live a life
with as few regrets as possible."
1554
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:11,919
And now I'm getting to be a pretty old man.
1555
01:53:11,920 --> 01:53:15,959
And I look back and, oh, Lord,
do I have some regrets.
1556
01:53:15,960 --> 01:53:20,239
I wish I'd done that differently.
I wish I hadn't done that.
1557
01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:21,760
Yes, it's filled with regrets.
1558
01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:28,840
But in the balance, I've got
these wonderful children.
1559
01:53:30,200 --> 01:53:33,719
I had a wonderful
relationship with Kathleen.
1560
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:35,640
I was loved and I loved.
1561
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:38,639
And I still do.
1562
01:53:38,640 --> 01:53:42,360
And I guess that's about the
best you can say about a person.
1563
01:53:44,680 --> 01:53:48,799
Their capacity to love,
and mine is infinite.
1564
01:53:48,800 --> 01:53:51,480
Honestly, it gets bigger all the time.
1565
01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:56,800
I can look at my children and
think, "Yeah, they love me."
1566
01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:00,240
What else do you want?
1567
01:55:21,920 --> 01:55:24,000
- Did you plant the roses?
- No, I didn't.
1568
01:55:30,560 --> 01:55:31,760
- I can get this one.
- OK.
1569
01:55:33,400 --> 01:55:34,480
Here.
1570
01:56:10,040 --> 01:56:11,280
Ten years later.
1571
01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:14,080
I know.
1572
01:56:15,080 --> 01:56:16,719
I know.
1573
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:17,760
Still hurts.
1574
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:20,079
It'll always hurt.
1575
01:56:20,080 --> 01:56:21,959
It'll never go away, ever.
1576
01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:23,600
No, it never, never goes away.
1577
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:27,720
You never forget.
1578
01:56:30,520 --> 01:56:32,040
Always pain, always pain.
1579
01:56:39,880 --> 01:56:41,280
Come on, dear, let's go.
1580
01:57:29,040 --> 01:57:31,320
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
139255
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.