All language subtitles for John.Wayne.Gacy.Devil.in.Disguise.S01E06.WEBRip.x264-ION10

I have a lot of things
that I’ve forgotten,

that I can’t remember.

For instance, I can go back
to my childhood and stuff,

and I still remember that,
but yet, I can go into the ’70s,

and there are a lot of things
I can’t remember.

The same thing with the victims:
I’ve looked at all of ...

I don’t know
if you notice here.

We’ve got pictures of every one
of the victims here,

and believe it or not,
for the last 12 years,

I’ve studied these photos
of these victims,

and there is no ...

We have a shot of all of
the victims together here,

and when you look over
at the photos,

I have no recollection
of any of them, never met them.

And we’ve gone over
this more than once.

It’s just names and faces,
and when you look at them ...

The thing of it is,
we took it a step further.

We went into their backgrounds.

I wanted to know
where they were at,

what schools they attended,
who they hung out with

and what kind of activities
they were into,

and that’s what we dug up
on each one of the victims,

but still,
there is no association.

None of them never
worked for me. None of them ...

They never went to any places
that I ever hung around

because I didn’t hang
around that many places.

Unless you were
involved in politics

or if you were involved
in clowning,

then I might have ran into you.

But there’s no way
I could’ve run into any of
them.

I was reviewing the interview
last night,

and having listened to those
lies for so many years,

it’s like ... I found
I wasn’t really listening.

I was watching the other tells:
the eye motions,

the hand motions,
the hands on the book.

They’ve got all that jewelry

that doesn’t belong
to the victim.

They’ve got the two clown suits
that don’t belong to the victim.

John researched
all of his victims.

He would put together
background information.

He had chapters, 20,
30 pages on victims,

and a lot of it
was clearly made up or hearsay,

but he felt it was something
that made a case for him,

that, "Well, yeah,

maybe I killed them,
but maybe they deserved it."

Just like I consider myself
the 34th victim,

I consider the families victims,
as well,

because they did not get justice

from the shoddy investigation
all the way down through ...

It wasn’t until just

recently that
in going through my archives,

I found some tapes that John
had given me in March of ’94

before his execution.

He didn’t want the guards
cleaning out his cell,

so one day, I went out of there
with tapes and books,

and I just stuffed them
in a box,

so they sat in that box
until about a year ago,

and I’m going,

"Oh, those tapes aren’t with
all the other tapes."

So we listened to them.

What’d you do with them?

Threw them downstairs
in the basement.

Just threw them down there?

Just threw them down
in the crawl space.

It’s Gacy confessing
and mostly saying, "Yeah.

I did that. I don’t know why."

All the ones you remember
seem to be is house itself.

Yeah.

There is this other person,
who I think is his lawyer.

Those last few were killed
in the house.

All the ones you remember

were found dead
or killed in the house.

Or the garage, yeah.
Killed in the garage?

Yeah.

Why were the last few
dumped in a river,

as opposed to being buried?

I don’t know. It was easier.

This is probably in early ’79
while he was still nervous.

You can hear that in his voice.
He’s not in control. He’s upset.

I think I killed him,
but I don’t know.

What do you mean,
you think you killed him?

Well, he was dead.

I don’t quite understand
why he gave them to me,

but these tapes,
he knew what was on them.

He had to have.

There is one guy I remember
taking out of the house

and throwing him
in the forest preserve.

That was 2 years ago.

Took him out of the house?
Yeah.

Then put him in the woods.

Why the hell
is that hitting me now?

Bury him in the woods?
No, I didn’t bury him.

Just laid him in the woods.

I just took him out
in the woods and ...

What woods?

Over by Maine Township
High School.

You took him out
of your house, though?

Yeah. He was in my house.

He was convicted
of 33 murders,

but there were many
missing persons or murders

that happened
during John’s active period

that could have been his work.

There’s no reason to think that
John only killed 33 victims.

He had a pattern.
He had a success rate,

and he was prolific
in everything he did.

When investigators began
taking bodies

out of the crawl space

under John
Wayne Gacy’s Norwood Park home,

they were never able
to identify eight of them.

Now, Cook County sheriff
Tom Dart

is hoping to offer
their families some closure

by asking them to come forward
with a DNA sample

that can be matched
to newly extracted DNA.

We haven’t forgotten.

Reopening the case was really
a strange sort of story.

When I first got in office,

I was wanting
to do things differently.

With all the advances
that we’ve had in our ...

not just on the criminal side
of things,

but just technology
and particularly DNA ...

I felt that cold cases
should be reexamined.

At the time, we had a detective
that was working with us named

Jason Moran,
and he came to me, and he said,

"Well, what about us
working on the Gacy case first?"

And I go, "Listen, there’s
nothing cold about this case.

Gacy was caught,
convicted, executed.

What are you talking about?"

The sheriff and I,
we were in the process

of sort of organizing things
and getting our cases together,

and I came across the cabinet.

It said 1978, Gacy,
and just out of curiosity,

I opened it up,
and by doing that, I learned

that eight of Gacy’s 33 victims
were never identified.

Friends and relatives
of missing teenage boys

have been calling
from all over the country

to learn more
about this bizarre crime.

We were under the impression
that the Gacy case

was cleared and closed.

The offender was known,
was found guilty,

and the victims had been
identified, cleared and closed,

but it wasn’t, and it wasn’t
for lack of trying.

My predecessors did what
they could to identify

every last victim.

Doctors and dentists matched
bones and teeth

against medical records
and X-rays.

The bodies found under
John Gacy’s house

were simply too decomposed

to allow any other means
of identification.

But in the end,
there was eight

that were never identified,
eight forgotten people,

so I took that information
to the sheriff.

Back in the ’70s,
everything was dental records.

That was the only way
you could identify people.

Jason was adamant that based
on new technologies and DNA

that we could make some headway.

The point of any cold case
is to bring contemporary

investigative methods
to an old investigation.

We knew that in this case,
DNA would be helpful.

To start, we needed a biological
sample from each victim

so we could test it in a lab

and see if we could get suitable
DNA profiles,

so the first thing we had to do
was go to the bodies.

In June, the sheriff’s office
exhumed the jawbones

of eight unnamed victims
buried at a Homewood cemetery.

They were originally saved
to compare to dental records

but contained enough DNA
for four complete profiles.

In September,

bodies were exhumed from
four Chicago-area cemeteries,

and samples were sent to labs of
the University of North Texas,

where additional DNA profiles
were extracted.

That process got us to where
we had, on most of the victims,

very good profiles.
They were all suitable

for comparison to family members
of missing persons,

and that was really

when we launched
the investigation to the public.

Cook County sheriff Tom Dart
is calling on families

who think a loved one
may have been a victim of

John Wayne Gacy to come forward
and offer up a DNA sample.

In particular,
the sheriff’s department

is looking for victims
of relatives of victims

who disappeared between
1970 and December 22nd, 1978.

Well, right away, the phones
and the e-mails

started flowing in,
people from all over the country

looking for their missing
loved one.

It was overwhelming.

Within a day,
we had 70, 80 leads.

I never thought it was going
to be easy.

What I did think, though,

it was going to be
relatively straightforward

in running it out.
For the life of me,

I had no idea
what direction it would take,

and I had no idea
on how far it would go.

One of the first leads
to come in was a lead

representing a missing boy
named William Bundy.

It was actually two leads
that came in.

One was from his sister, Laura.

I remember leaving
that one night,

saying he was going to go
to a party,

and that was
the last time I saw him.

His sister basically explains
that in about 1976,

her brother got dressed to go
to a party, left the house,

and he was never seen
or heard from again.

They filled out
a missing-persons report

with the Chicago
Police Department.

Chicago Police Department
couldn’t find him,

and a couple years later,
the Gacy case broke,

and they immediately said,
"Maybe this is Bill."

They went to my predecessors,
who said,

"Well, do you have
dental records?

We need dental records
to compare to these bodies,"

so they went to their dentist,
but he said,

"I destroyed all my records
when I retired.

I don’t have any dental records
for Bill."

At that time,
there was really no other way

to identify a markedly
decomposed or skeletal remains

other than dental records,
so that was it.

There was nothing
more they could do.

Another lead was from his friend
from growing up.

Bill’s friend told me that
the last time he saw Bill alive,

Bill had came up,

and he had a big wad of money
in his pocket,

maybe a couple hundred bucks,
and in the ’70s for a young guy,

a couple hundred bucks
was a lot of money.

So he said, "Where’d you get
that money from?

You selling drugs?"

He goes, "No, I’m working
construction for a guy,"

and he found that to be curious
because Bill was small statured.

He wasn’t one of these

sort of larger
construction-worker types.

So right away,
I’m prioritizing it.

Does this fit what I know
about the Gacy case?

And it absolutely did.

Here is a young man
the right age.

He was 17, 18 years old.
Right time period, 1976, 1977.

He’s in Chicago, and his friends
say he works construction,

so I decided to pursue
that one right away,

so I met with Laura, and I met
with Laura’s other brother,

who was still living,

and I collected
their DNA sample.

And Murphy’s Law,
victim number 19,

no matter what we did,

we could not get a good,
a perfect DNA profile.

We only had a partial profile.
It wasn’t enough,

but the one thing that I learned
through investigation

is that victim number 19,

when you look
at their dental analysis,

the upper canine teeth,
the eye teeth were missing.

They weren’t missing as a result
of postmortem tooth loss.

In other words, they didn’t fall
out of the decomposing body.

They were removed by a dentist
prior to the death,

and the sockets had healed,

so I knew if I could get
a picture of Bill smiling

and I could see
that the upper row of teeth

were missing the eye teeth,
that would be a fantastic clue.

So I asked her, "Do you have
a picture of Bill smiling?"

She says, "Not really."
She goes,

"My mother was so distraught
after he went missing,

and after years, she started
getting rid of his stuff

because it was too hard
to look at."

I go, "Well, do you
have anything?"

She goes, "Well, I have
his wallet. I have an ID.

I have this. I have" ...
She goes, "Oh!"

She goes, "I have his teeth."
I got, "What do you mean?"

She goes, "Well, he went
to the dentist about a year

before he went missing,

and the dentist removed
some teeth from his upper jaw."

She goes,
"I don’t know what it was.

It was just two teeth,
and he asked

if he could have them
and put them in a little jar."

You could picture a teenage boy
wanting to go gross

out his friends
with his extracted teeth,

so she brought the teeth down,
and they were eye teeth.

So the mitochondrial DNA,

along with the case
facts and circumstances

and the absence of those teeth

is what identified victim
number 19.

In Chicago’s own Gothic
horror story,

the first break
in more than 30 years.

Because of all of this work,
victim number 19

is never going to be known
by a number anymore.

Through DNA analysis,
investigators say they now know

that victim number 19
was William George Bundy.

Bundy was buried
as an unidentified Gacy victim

here at Resurrection Cemetery
in 1981.

Laura O’Leary
was Bundy’s sister.

I know that the sorrow
will eventually go away,

and I’ll have a place
to visit him.

When do you stop trying
to find a missing person?

When do you stop caring?

What is the cutoff
when law enforcement and society

stop caring about
an unidentified dead person,

about a murder victim
and about their families?

And that’s really our overall
philosophy on cold cases.

We should never stop caring.

We should never stop
pursuing these cases.

As I told you, when the FBI
first came in to check on me,

you said that you were kept out
of the case back in ’78,

and that was only
because of egos.

They did not want
a professional coming in

and doing an investigation,

so they did their
sloppy investigation

and let it slide that way.

You see, everybody was
so excited about the large,

massive case, and everybody
was looking with their egos

as to how they could
close this thing up,

and you’re not the only one
that really have hurt.

You’ve had
the victims’ family vent

all their hostility towards me,

and they think I’m the monster
that killed their son

or took out their son and stuff
like that, when in fact,

most of them don’t even have
the remains of their own sons.

This story, just like
so many other things,

it still has people coming up
with conspiracy theories.

It still comes up with people
claiming that

the person identified
has been misidentified,

but some of it might be true,
and we have to follow it up.

Could there have been
any misidentification? Sure.

The means of identification
have changed so much.

Forensic dentistry
is not today’s DNA.

We didn’t have that back then,

so if there is
a misidentification,

I would be glad
to have it corrected.

I began to be involved
in the Gacy case in May of 2011.

Mrs. Sherry Marino
came to my office

for the purpose
of having me look

into whether her son,
Michael Marino,

the youngest alleged victim
of John Wayne Gacy,

had been misidentified
many years prior.

Sherry Marino had,
I guess you call it,

a mother’s hunch that the body
in her son’s grave was not him.

The third time when I went
to the cemetery,

I put my hand on the grave,
and it felt cold.

It felt ...
It didn’t feel right.

Michael Marino was 14 years
old when he went missing

on October 24th, 1976.

Michael was going to go to
a game room to meet his friend.

Mrs. Marino recalls that
he gave her a kiss on her cheek

and said, "Mom,
I’ll be back for the movie,"

and then that was the last time
that she ever saw him.

I just couldn’t believe it
when he didn’t come home.

She called the police to make
a missing persons report.

The police basically told her,

as unfortunately they did
many of the Gacy victims,

that her son
was likely a runaway.

Mrs. Marino knew that Michael
would not run away

because he was a very
dutiful son

and loved his mother very much.

She didn’t see any reason
that he should’ve disappeared,

so she continued to go to
the Chicago Police Department,

so much so that I guess
they were sort of getting

a little bit tired of her
coming there all the time,

and the youth officer
that was responsible for the son

was telling her,
"Oh, Mrs. Marino,

I saw your son
on the street the other day.

He ran away from me,
and I can’t catch him.

I’m not going to chase him.
He’ll come home when he wants."

So this went on
for about 2 years

where she continued to go to
Chicago police inquiring about,

"any progress on my son?"

They repeatedly
told Mrs. Marino

that Michael was a runaway.

Because of the kind of treatment
that she received

from the Chicago
Police Department at the time,

she spent thousands of dollars
of her own money

hiring investigators

and actually putting herself
at physical safety risk

to try to find Michael.

She went in drug houses
and other very dangerous places

to try to see if she could get
any information on her son.

In 1978, John Wayne Gacy
was arrested.

After the bodies started to be
discovered in the crawl space,

the Chicago Police Department
made a general call

to the public to provide
dental records from their sons.

They are telling them to send
dental records and charts

because that’s the only way
the bodies can be identified.

So Mrs. Marino did provide
Michael’s dental records

to the Chicago
Police Department,

and in early 1979,
she was informed

that her son was not
a John Wayne Gacy victim,

so she then continued
to look for Michael

because Michael was missing.

Even at the time
of the trial,

her son was not identified
as being a victim,

and she went to them
and said, "Is he a victim?"

They said, "Mrs. Marino,

we’re positive your son
is not a victim."

And then in March of 1980,
Mrs. Marino had a fateful day

in which two detectives
knocked on her door,

and they said, "Mrs. Marino,
we’re very sorry.

We made a huge mistake
about telling you

that your son was a runaway,

and he has just been identified
as a victim of John Wayne Gacy."

They did take her
to a police precinct

to look at certain items

that they had recovered
from John Wayne Gacy,

and Mrs. Marino said that
she was not able to identify

any items
that would’ve matched Michael’s.

So she went to see Dr. Stein
at the morgue, and she inquired,

"How is it that she was
only identified now

and not earlier when you’ve had
all this information,

the dental records
for all this time?"

And she said at first
he was kind of cordial

and nice with her,

but it sort of ended
on a bad note

where he basically told her,
"Mrs. Marino,

just be thankful you got a body,
and be done with it."

Does that mean it wasn’t him?
We don’t know.

But she becomes convinced
that he was misidentified.

Mrs. Marino buried a body
in a grave

and has gone to that cemetery
for,

oh, we’re talking
30-some years now

and wondered in her own heart

as she stood there whether this
body and this grave is her son’s

because of the way
everything went down.

Now, later in 2011,
Mrs. Marino came to me

as a result of seeing
the news interviews

about the 1998 dig
on Miami Avenue,

and she told me
she had a great suspicion

may not really be
one of Gacy’s victims.

I told her ...
I says, "Mrs. Marino,

I don’t know if your son is
or isn’t a victim,

but I can tell you how we can
get the answers to that."

Dorsch took her to the office
of the medical examiner,

Nancy Jones,

and helped her file a request
for the autopsy results

of the person she’d been told
was her son.

A little while later,
Dorsch called Jones

and asked how that search
was coming.

Nancy Jones told Mr. Dorsch

that they would not be able
to get the autopsy reports,

and so that was why he brought
Mrs. Marino to my office

because I do a lot of Freedom
of Information Act requests.

I didn’t know what we would find
in the autopsy report.

It could’ve simply been that
I would be able to let her know

that this was her son

and that she would find
some closure from that.

Once I obtained
the autopsy report,

however, I found discrepancies.
It particularly mentioned

that there was no antemortem
tooth loss,

basically that there was
no tooth loss prior to death,

and yet when I reviewed

Michael’s personal
dental charts,

the tooth number 15 was in fact
listed as being missing.

In addition, there was
a possible broken collarbone

for the decedent.

Mrs. Marino said
that Michael did not ever have

a broken collarbone
to her knowledge,

and thirdly, the autopsy report
also mentioned the fact

that there was possible
Native American heritage.

Again, I checked
with Mrs. Marino.

Michael was of pure
Italian ancestry.

Also, originally Mrs. Marino
was told

that Michael was not
a Gacy victim in early 1979.

Then in March of 1980,
she was all of a sudden told

that Michael was,
in fact, a Gacy victim.

Why did it take that long?
What changed in the meantime?

We actually have no idea.
In September of 2011,

I decided to file what’s called
a petition for exhumation.

The judge held a hearing
in October of 2011

and granted the petition.

Shortly after this comes word
through the media

that Tom Dart,
the sheriff of Cook County,

has decided to reopen
the Gacy case.

No mention of Mrs. Marino.

We believe with the type ...

I thought it was
a little bit suspect

because it followed within less
than a week of our announcement

that we would be exhuming
body number 14.

Long prior, of course,
Mrs. Marino,

along with former
detective Dorsch,

had already visited Nancy Jones,
the medical examiner,

so ostensibly, the sheriff’s
office would’ve been well aware

of the fact that we were
looking into this case.

We’re sitting on things
that we believe

can help bring closure to that.

To me, that would be somewhat
immoral for me not to do that.

My immediate thought was,
this was a way for him

to try to take away the steam
from the exhumation

and tried to give a positive
spin to the sheriff’s office

with respect
to the John Wayne Gacy case.

We conducted the exhumation
in September of 2012

at the Queen of Heaven
Catholic cemetery in Hillside.

According to the judge’s order,

the Cook County medical
examiner’s office

was able to be present
to take DNA samples.

However, no one from
the sheriff’s department

or the medical examiner
attended the exhumation.

The body was brought
to an area at the cemetery,

a warehouse where they were
able to then lower the coffin.

The pathologist arrived.
The coffin was then opened.

The first thing with as
looking for was the jaws to see

if this tooth was actually there
or not, tooth number 15,

that was so critical apparently

to the original identification
of Michael Marino

as being body number 14
because the principal basis

on which
the exhumation petition granted

was that the teeth
did not match,

so I was looking
for the maxilla,

which is the upper part
of the jaw that goes along here,

and the mandible, which is
the lower part of the jaw.

They were both
completely missing.

That’s another thing
everybody misses from this,

is that the victims’ families
are not aware that ...

In a lot of the cases,

they don’t even have the remains
of their own sons

because Dr. Stein never turned
over the whole body,

and they took the heads
off of each one of the victims,

so when you turn
over the remains

to the loved one’s family,
they don’t have the whole body.

So basically, there was only
half of the skull in the coffin.

I was very concerned about
what had happened with that,

and, of course,
we found out later

that the medical
examiner’s office

took the jaws off
all of the skulls

for the Gacy victims
at the time.

The upper and lower jawbones

from all of
the unidentified victims

were retained by the medical
examiner’s office

after the bodies had been buried

because the main way
to identify skeletal remains

at that time was through
dental identification,

and they kept them
at the ME’s office for years

and years and years,
hoping that a family member

of a missing person
would come in and say,

"This is my missing loved
one’s dental records.

Could you compare them?"

They were removed from
the medical examiner’s office

in 2009

and then buried in
the Homewood Memorial Gardens,

but at the time
of the exhumation,

the pathologist
took certain samples.

Apparently there was
part of the mandible

that was still connected
to the upper part of the skull

that he was able to extract
in order to do DNA.

These samples were submitted
to an independent laboratory,

very well-respected,
called Labcorp.

We had received the report back
on October 24th of 2012,

exactly 36 years to the day that
Michael Marino went missing.

They were able to obtain
a profile from the mandible.

It said that there was not
a match

between Mrs. Marino
and body number 14.

It was no shock.
I always knew it.

It’s just a feeling that you get
when you’re a mother.

We notified the sheriff’s
department

so they would be aware of it,
and then we went to the media.

Mrs. Marino wanted the world
to know

that her son was not a victim

and that she had been right
all the way along.

Mrs. Marino hired
some attorneys to look at this.

We let them know,
anything we can do to help,

but there was this somewhat
adversarial relationship

I never understood,

and then once they did
their own analysis,

we kept asking them
to send us it,

and we had a hard time
getting it,

and then once we got it,
I’ll never forget,

it was all redacted.
And it was like,

"Guys, if there’s
something here, we want" ...

People make mistakes.
If there was a mistake made,

if you have something,
we would love to run it out.

Certain information was
redacted from the information

we gave to
the sheriff’s department.

This included personal
information on Mrs. Marino

as well as Mrs. Marino’s
full DNA profile

because Mrs. Marino did not
trust the sheriff’s department,

based on prior conduct she had
had with the authorities.

According to my viewpoint,

there’s nothing
in the redactions

that we gave the sheriff
that would inhibit them

from determining whether this
was a misidentification or not.

Eventually, we had a meeting
with Detective Moran

from the sheriff’s department.

We provided the notes
from the exhumation.

We provided certain photographs,
as well as the DNA results,

but Detective Moran was
basically claiming

that we could not have gotten
our sample from the mandible

because the jaws
had already been removed.

Because no one from
the sheriff’s department

or the medical examiner attended
the exhumation of body 14,

they would have no idea
that the pathologist,

in fact, did discover
a portion of the mandible

that was still attached
to the skull,

so they expressed their sorry to
Mrs. Marino regarding her loss,

but they refused
to acknowledge

the DNA results
with respect to her son.

We have said from day
one that our heart

bleeds for his mother.
Our heart bleeds for her.

We’ve never once said, "Listen,
everything was perfect."

No. There was no DNA.
There was no nothing back then,

so could mistakes
have been made?

Possibly, sure,

and that’s no shame
on this person, that person.

The only shame would be is if
you dig your heels in and say,

"Listen, we’re not reviewing it,
and we’re perfect." No.

After the results came back,
I made an offer.

We would be happy to provide
Mrs. Marino’s DNA,

and we will have it retested
with an independent lab

with the bone samples
that we had collected,

and the sheriff’s office
absolutely refused.

The sheriff’s department
said,

"Let us do our own DNA test,"

but because Sherry Marino
felt that authorities

had never treated her well
and somewhat bullied her,

she didn’t trust them

and would not allow them
to do their own DNA test,

so they were
at a bit of a stalemate.

Why on Earth would
Sherry Marino and her lawyer

and the scientists
they hired conspire

to produce a result
that’s not legitimate?

So the question really
has to go back to the sheriff.

Why wouldn’t he want to work
with that result?

When we were
re-examining it ...

because we really wanted
to help this mother out.

We wanted to make sure
we didn’t miss anything here ...

the odontologist, I think it is,
who was there for the trial,

who did all the dental work,
he still helps us on cases.

He had the dental records
from the body

that had been recovered
from the crawl space,

and I remember him
holding it up like this,

and they were the same,
and he was like, "I don’t ...

This is identical.
I did not make a mistake here."

We’re continuing to waste
manpower and economics

on an issue that is long gone.
It is ...

Unfortunately, these two things,

the body and Marino are one
and the same,

and I feel bad for Mrs. Marino
that we keep stirring this pot.

In that time, the principal
means of identification

was dental records.

That is entirely different
now when we have DNA.

I find it somewhat ironic
that the sheriff’s office

is utilizing the jaws
and the teeth to conduct

their forensic investigation
into unidentified Gacy victims

but refuses to acknowledge
our DNA results.

Our door will always be open.
They could call anytime.

We all have undying sympathy
for Mrs. Marino.

Until we have reports
and expert notes and reports,

there’s really not much
we can do.

Sherry Marino
has hard evidence

that her son was misidentified.

That’s an unidentified victim,
and for some reason,

the sheriff isn’t interested

in adding those
remains to his list.

This is completely
inconsistent,

and I think it simply
demonstrates

that they want to control
the narrative of the Gacy case

and make sure that there are
no errors that become public.

If there was
one misidentification,

there could be
multiple misidentifications,

and it could open up
an entire forensic can of worms

for the entire Gacy case.

So the situation
is where it is.

She believes the DNA tests show
that that is not her son.

I believe he’s out there
somewhere. I don’t know where.

And the sheriff department’s,
I think,

feeling is that the DNA tests
are faulty,

and that is Michael Marino.

My interest in the case
is not the identified victims.

It’s the unidentified victims,

and Michael Marino was
one of the identified victims.

I think there are a lot
of people out there

that felt like there
was more to this story,

that there were these
unanswered questions,

and I’m sure there are
a lot of people out there

that wanted to put this story
to rest

and didn’t want to hear any more
about John Wayne Gacy.

But I think for authorities,

a lot of careers were made
on that case,

and so maybe that’s part
of the reason

why they don’t want specific
answers to these questions.

To me, the biggest
questions are,

are there any bodies
buried beneath Miami and Elston,

and if so, who are these people?
So in 1998,

the Chicago Police Department
digs at Miami and Elston.

Weeks of anticipation
in Chicago

came to a head on a day
where technicians paced off

the yard
and driveway of the home

where John Gacy’s mother
once lived.

The radar company finds
17 locations to dig,

but the Chicago Police
Department only dug two holes.

The digging proceeded
in the two

indicated sites
throughout the day,

but by nightfall,
the operation was halted.

We found a glass marble,
a flattened saucepan,

a 2 1/2 length of wire.

The guy from the radar
company said

that was not
a good investigation.

It doesn’t make any sense
to give 17 targets

and only dig two,
and Terry Sullivan,

again, the former prosecutor
in this case,

said he doesn’t understand
why there was so much secrecy.

I was at that so-called dig
on the northwest side,

and from everything
that I could see,

the police department

really didn’t want anything
more to do with it,

and why it was done
in such secrecy, even to me,

that was something
that I wondered about back then.

Today was the first scheduled
that I’ve had

with Sheriff Dart’s people

regarding
the Gacy investigation.

This site in ’98

was being investigated
by Chicago Police Department,

but they didn’t do it right.

Now suddenly, Sheriff Dart
is involved in this,

and he was certainly
not involved at the time,

so he bore no responsibility

for how this investigation
was handled.

But now he is in charge,

so I put it all
on the table, basically.

I told him what I had,
and I told him,

"I think you’d be making
a very big mistake

if you think
I’m walking away from this."

My intention was always to get
the truth to the Miami location.

I’m still very skeptical if it’s
going to be done correctly,

so I has to trust someone,
so I’m going to give them

a little bit of time
to see where it goes.

Toward the end of Gacy’s
killing spree,

he had literally
run out of space.

Could he then
have used that place?

Most everything else
we’d had was at his house,

garage or the Des Plaines River.

But based on his connection
to the property,

it was definitely
worth running out.

What we thought we could find

there would maybe be remains
of another victim.

Cook County state’s attorney
has agreed

to let the sheriff’s office
search an apartment building

where serial killer John Gacy
worked as a janitor,

but any additional digging
at that site is still weeks

or even months away.

Dart announces in January
of 2013

that he got a search warrant

for the property
of Miami and Elston.

Nothing is happening, so Bill
and I are chugging along,

following our various leads,

interviewing various players
in the story.

At the end of March of 2013,
we cooked up an idea

to have an open letter from
Bill Dorsch posted on my blog,

saying, "There are indications
that the local authorities

may be less sincere

than you might think about
their determination to find out

if there were human remains
at Miami and Elston.

I’m appealing to my fellow
officers to keep an eye out

and let me know if it looks like
something’s happening there."

I posted that letter,

and the next morning,
Michael Sneed,

a very well-known columnist
for the "Chicago Sun-Times,"

had an item in her column
saying that Tom Dart

decided to do an investigation
at Miami and Elston,

and it turned out that
the investigation had happened

6 or 7 days earlier.

Wait a minute. What? Why now?
Why all of a sudden?

They’re in. They’re out.
"We didn’t find anything."

I remember waking up and finding
out about it and being pissed

because I didn’t know about it.

There were no journalists
out there.

When this whole story has been
under a cloud of suspicion,

a cloud of suspicion that
somewhat involves authorities,

you would’ve thought that maybe
they would’ve wanted

some independent viewers there

to give it more credibility
than what it has today,

and yet, they just
went out one night,

and nobody knew about it.

I think our biggest concern
was that we wanted

to run this out

but do it in the least
invasive way as possible.

We tried to be very sensitive,

and I think we were,
to the property owners.

We were trying to be
very sensitive

to the notoriety behind this

because we knew if we did
this thing with publicity,

it was going to have helicopters
above us, crowds around us.

So we did this as somewhat of a,
I don’t know,

well-coordinated strike,
for lack of a better word.

We used a fantastic group
of cadaver dogs from England,

ground-penetrating radar,

thermal imaging,
all of the modern ...

We call these
remote-sensing equipment.

We did ground-penetrating
radar through the whole area,

and so anywhere we found
something, we went for it,

and only once,
we found some anomalies

that were where landscaping work
would’ve been done

or something like that
that would’ve fit the pattern,

but nothing panned out.
We didn’t come up with anything.

After the end of the search,

there was absolutely no evidence
or information

that there
was anybody buried there.

They claimed that they had
some new radar equipment,

et cetera, et cetera,

but I went out
and talked to people,

and they said,
"Look, the only way

to know for sure
is to dig up the whole yard,

to dig up all the spots
that you find."

That’s the only way you’re ever
going to have the answers.

I think there was a concern
for the property owner

and so forth, but come on.

You’re talking about tearing up
a small yard and a driveway.

How much can it cost to repave a
driveway and resod a small yard?

It’s a small price to pay
to maybe get some answers

one way or another
for a lot of families out there

who are living
with a lot of questions.

I believe that they have gone
as far as they can.

You just can’t go
and dig up somebody’s property

just because there’s a rumor

that there
may be something there,

but I don’t think there’s
anything out there right now

that I know of that would lead
to any further investigations,

despite the fact that I firmly
believe there are other victims.

Do you actually feel
that my investigation,

that my case has been
thoroughly investigated?

I think during a case
like this,

and I find this
in many major cases,

that things are,
at the time of the case,

are done rather hastily

because of the fact that
there’s pressure on everybody.

Yeah, but that’s a political
answer.

Yeah.

I don’t want
a political answer from you.

Yeah.
I want a basic answer.

Do you actually think
that the investigation

of my case has been done right?

I believe in your case
that there needs to be ...

that there should’ve been
more focus on others,

that there should’ve
been others checked out

a little more thoroughly.

That’s the belief I’ve developed
over these years.

How many coincidences
can you tolerate?

You have Gacy
and his political connections,

a connection between Gacy
and a sex-trafficking ring

that’s making pornography,
the suggestion of accomplices,

more potential victims,

the property
at Miami and Elston.

You just have to feel
like there’s a thread

that connects them all,

that there’s something
being hidden.

It would be such an injustice
if there are people

that are
still walking the Earth today

that were part of any of it

or any others that people
don’t even know about.

It would be very sad,
very sad thing.

Michael Rossi has stayed
silent for four decades.

Rossi has never been charged
with anything in the Gacy case,

so I’m not accusing
him of anything,

but I think
he may have some answers.

I’m hoping that one day, he will
wake up and for whatever reason,

have a change of heart
and tell what he knows,

even if it’s nothing.
It would be good to hear

from someone who
was in that circle at that time.

Today, we are announcing
that we have identified

one more of the original
eight that were unidentified,

Jimmy Haakenson.

Jimmy was 16 years old
at the time

when he was murdered
by John Gacy.

More leads continue
to come in.

There’s family members
from all over the country

that are still looking
for their missing loved ones,

and then there’s new
technologies that come to play,

like forensic genealogy.

Hopefully, we’ll solve
other people’s cases like

we already have done.

I don’t think she knows
what happened to him.

She still just loves him,
and she’s looking for him,

and she wants to find him.

Is it at all possible
that there might be

other victims above

and beyond the 33
in these other states?

No. You keep wanting
to go back to that shit,

and I welcome you

to go check out every state
that I’ve ever been in.

Okay.
I find it inescapable

that Gacy
did not do this in other states.

The guy traveled all the time
all over the place.

You’re trying to tell me
for 2 seconds

that that person
would not be more emboldened

when he went
to a different jurisdiction?

People don’t often think
about it this way,

but being in any way
an aspect of violent crime

or a whole boxful
of violent crimes,

in John’s case,

is a lot like dropping a rock
in the middle of a pond

because the ripples
are going to go out

until they can’t go any further,
and everything is affected.

Don Voorhees, he called me
one day out of the blue,

and he said,
"My life has been ruined.

I’ve lost my job."
He says,

"I lost my wife and family.
I can’t eat or sleep."

I didn’t know why
he was calling me.

We weren’t close.

I think I urged him
to get some professional help,

but the next thing I heard was
that he had committed suicide.

I was impressed
with how profound

and how deep the injury is
that is caused to these victims.

You can’t bury history.
It is something that happened,

and it will be talked about
for a long time,

and you just deal with it,

and you have to learn from what
happened and make things better.

And I think good things
can come out of bad things.

The one thing
that has always,

always been foremost in my mind

is how many lives
this one single guy,

John Wayne Gacy, affected.

And that’s always
stayed with me.

And I guess it always will.

It never ends.
The case just never ends.

People come up to me to this day
and will say,

"You represented John Gacy.
How could you do that?"

And then on the other hand,
they turn and they say,

"But tell me all about it,"

because as much as they are
disgusted by him,

they want to know
what he was like,

and there will always

be a fascination
with John Gacy, always.

Yeah. I just think that we’re
kind of wrapping it up here.

I think we accomplished
something today.

Certainly, we put something down
on tape that has not been said.

My feeling as a career
law-enforcement officer is that

if John Wayne Gacy is guilty,
then he should be punished.

If John Wayne Gacy
has others involved,

then they should be brought in,
and they should be punished.

Basically, I believe in total
investigation and total justice,

and that’s really what
I’ve been looking for all along.