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Do you often talk about your experience
in the Algerian War?
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00:00:32,292 --> 00:00:34,542
Very seldom.
5
00:00:34,709 --> 00:00:37,001
With my kids sometimes.
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00:00:37,167 --> 00:00:40,251
But to them, I mean...
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thirty years back is like
the First World War. So no, not really.
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Not very. When I see old friends
again...
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00:00:51,251 --> 00:00:52,959
Otherwise, no.
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00:00:53,126 --> 00:00:56,126
I discovered a week ago,
looking for old pictures,
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00:00:56,292 --> 00:00:57,542
looking for documents,
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00:00:57,709 --> 00:01:02,334
that my thirty-year-old son and I
have never talked about the Algerian War.
13
00:01:02,501 --> 00:01:05,042
My children sometimes ask
questions about it.
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00:01:05,209 --> 00:01:07,667
It is true that I barely mention it much.
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00:01:07,834 --> 00:01:11,126
And I think this film is
an opportunity to...
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00:01:11,292 --> 00:01:12,709
talk about it with them as well.
17
00:01:12,876 --> 00:01:15,417
Talking about it is...
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00:01:15,584 --> 00:01:18,667
like my colleague said,
it is painful,
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00:01:18,834 --> 00:01:22,917
because we experienced it,
and also no one wants to listen to that.
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00:01:23,084 --> 00:01:25,376
Why tell
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00:01:25,542 --> 00:01:30,292
your pals, your family,
what you experienced over there?
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00:01:30,459 --> 00:01:33,959
It's always sad.
You cast bad memories aside.
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00:01:34,126 --> 00:01:37,292
I went through a long period of amnesia,
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00:01:37,459 --> 00:01:44,251
where I didn't want
to think about the Algerian War.
25
00:01:44,417 --> 00:01:50,001
Under the burning sun of Algeria
26
00:01:50,167 --> 00:01:54,542
Our flag floated calm and victorious
27
00:01:54,709 --> 00:01:59,417
In response to the motherland's call
28
00:01:59,584 --> 00:02:03,876
He goes there to face the harshness
29
00:02:04,042 --> 00:02:09,001
Go! Raise to the Crimean winds
30
00:02:09,167 --> 00:02:13,251
Your old flag alas no longer victorious
31
00:02:13,417 --> 00:02:17,876
Stained with the blood
Of the invaded Austria
32
00:02:18,042 --> 00:02:22,292
And proudly wear the Cross of honor
33
00:02:22,459 --> 00:02:27,251
Hurray, hurray! Soldiers march on
34
00:02:27,417 --> 00:02:32,042
The canon rings and the bugle sings
35
00:02:32,209 --> 00:02:36,501
Hurray, hurray! Soldiers march on
36
00:02:36,667 --> 00:02:40,709
Always follow the third regiment
37
00:02:40,876 --> 00:02:44,626
Barn, barn! Take cover
The jackals are here
38
00:02:44,792 --> 00:02:48,959
The jackals, these warriors
Who never leave you bare feet
39
00:02:49,126 --> 00:02:54,001
November 1st, 1954, I was
in the Algerian territory of Khenchela.
40
00:02:54,167 --> 00:02:59,501
We were spending the night
in small barracks right outside town.
41
00:02:59,667 --> 00:03:03,667
We were leaving the next day.
And at 1 a.m., we were attacked.
42
00:03:03,834 --> 00:03:07,251
Our watchman,
the one who was on watch duty,
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00:03:07,417 --> 00:03:12,167
posted out front, was injured. Seriously.
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00:03:12,334 --> 00:03:15,542
We carried him to Batna hospital
during the night,
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00:03:15,709 --> 00:03:19,084
in a truck, a GMC,
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00:03:19,251 --> 00:03:23,917
and he died two days later.
His name was Marquet.
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00:03:24,084 --> 00:03:28,501
- He was the Algerian War's first casualty.
- He was among the first ones.
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00:03:28,667 --> 00:03:31,792
There was another battery at Batna,
the BCS,
49
00:03:31,959 --> 00:03:34,501
Command and Services Battery,
50
00:03:34,667 --> 00:03:38,876
which was attacked
at around the same time and...
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00:03:39,042 --> 00:03:43,292
Not the watchman,
but the post brigadier came out to check
52
00:03:43,459 --> 00:03:45,959
what was happening at 1 a.m.,
there were gunshots,
53
00:03:46,126 --> 00:03:49,709
and he was fatally wounded.
His name was Cocher.
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00:03:49,876 --> 00:03:54,626
- Did you know them?
- I'd known them a little in Germany.
55
00:03:54,792 --> 00:03:57,167
Before they attacked,
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00:03:57,334 --> 00:03:59,667
the blew the transformer outside.
57
00:03:59,834 --> 00:04:02,334
And we were in places we didn't know,
58
00:04:02,501 --> 00:04:04,042
in the dark...
59
00:04:05,042 --> 00:04:08,376
We stood around...
There were walls all around,
60
00:04:08,542 --> 00:04:12,001
so those who were at the gate,
they were okay.
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00:04:12,167 --> 00:04:14,417
Those who were behind the wall,
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00:04:14,584 --> 00:04:18,001
we tried to do something,
but we couldn't see anything.
63
00:04:18,167 --> 00:04:21,417
I was shooting, I had a rifle.
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00:04:21,584 --> 00:04:26,376
We shot over the wall, but it didn't go
anywhere, we couldn't retaliate.
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00:04:26,542 --> 00:04:30,876
But they threw us boxes,
with pieces of cloth,
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00:04:31,042 --> 00:04:34,209
like Molotov cocktails.
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00:04:34,376 --> 00:04:37,167
It fell down and went up in flames.
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00:04:37,334 --> 00:04:39,126
All our trucks
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00:04:39,292 --> 00:04:44,876
were lined up by that wall. And we had
a fuel tank, one truck had 800 liters
70
00:04:45,042 --> 00:04:48,667
because we drove around.
We tried to move them
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00:04:48,834 --> 00:04:51,334
away from the wall,
so they couldn't get hit.
72
00:04:51,501 --> 00:04:55,459
The next day there was
some retaliation.
73
00:04:55,626 --> 00:04:59,626
- Meaning?
- We arrested suspects.
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00:04:59,792 --> 00:05:02,709
It was bad,
75
00:05:02,876 --> 00:05:06,334
the guys had a hard time accepting
the couple of casualties.
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00:05:06,501 --> 00:05:10,251
- How did you feel about these deaths?
- I was like them.
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00:05:10,417 --> 00:05:14,042
I... You can't...
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00:05:14,209 --> 00:05:16,501
We were hurting and...
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00:05:16,667 --> 00:05:19,001
we didn't really understand why.
80
00:05:19,167 --> 00:05:24,001
As young draftees, we didn't really
know why they shot at us.
81
00:05:24,167 --> 00:05:28,667
People said "Algeria," "France,"
it was confusing.
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00:05:28,834 --> 00:05:31,709
You were absolutely not aware
that a seven-year war was starting.
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00:05:31,876 --> 00:05:36,501
Not at all.
I thought it would last one year, tops.
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00:05:36,667 --> 00:05:39,292
What even surprised me
I have a brother who's
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00:05:39,459 --> 00:05:42,501
six years younger than I am,
that went there.
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00:05:42,667 --> 00:05:46,001
Then again, I'd never thought
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00:05:46,167 --> 00:05:48,584
that war would last eight years.
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00:05:59,209 --> 00:06:03,209
This eight-year war,
those who fought it will talk about it.
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00:06:03,376 --> 00:06:05,834
Like Pierre Pessenti,
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00:06:06,001 --> 00:06:09,709
all the witnesses we talked to were
drafted or re-drafted,
91
00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:13,459
and served in Algeria
between 1954 and 1962.
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00:06:13,626 --> 00:06:16,084
Soldiers, with or without rank.
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00:06:16,251 --> 00:06:18,542
"Blokes," as they called them then.
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00:06:18,709 --> 00:06:20,584
Millions of young Frenchmen,
95
00:06:20,751 --> 00:06:24,709
millions of stories that made history.
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00:06:24,876 --> 00:06:26,834
They had never spoken,
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00:06:27,001 --> 00:06:30,501
and nobody bothered listening anyway.
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00:06:36,792 --> 00:06:38,959
They were twenty,
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00:06:39,126 --> 00:06:41,334
sometimes older,
when they had a deferment.
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00:06:41,501 --> 00:06:44,209
They were simple soldiers or officers.
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00:06:44,376 --> 00:06:46,917
They fought in the Aurès
and by Constantine,
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00:06:47,084 --> 00:06:51,001
in Kabylia and on the border.
They wore the bush hat,
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00:06:51,167 --> 00:06:54,459
the paratrooper beret,
or the commando cap.
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00:06:54,626 --> 00:06:57,584
They retained perfect memories
of that time,
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00:06:57,751 --> 00:07:00,626
Incredibly vivid and accurate.
106
00:07:00,792 --> 00:07:05,334
They also often kept, as one does,
pious relics, souvenirs,
107
00:07:05,501 --> 00:07:07,501
letters, pictures,
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00:07:07,667 --> 00:07:09,834
the only documents you will see.
109
00:07:10,001 --> 00:07:15,251
Just like we excluded politicians,
career officers and officials,
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00:07:15,417 --> 00:07:19,209
instead of archives,
we chose to use
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00:07:19,376 --> 00:07:22,417
photographs
taken on site by our witnesses.
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00:07:24,042 --> 00:07:27,751
All these former draftees or re-draftees
share another trait.
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00:07:27,917 --> 00:07:33,126
Like Pierre Pessenti,
they are all from the Grenoble area.
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00:07:33,292 --> 00:07:35,959
Thirty years later,
we found them in the city
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00:07:36,126 --> 00:07:38,334
where they still live.
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00:07:38,501 --> 00:07:40,834
And we chose Grenoble for a reason.
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00:07:41,459 --> 00:07:44,584
This is where, on May 18th, 1956,
118
00:07:44,751 --> 00:07:49,501
one of the biggest protests against
re-drafting took place.
119
00:07:49,667 --> 00:07:53,584
Almost all our witnesses were involved,
closely or from a distance,
120
00:07:53,751 --> 00:07:55,917
whether they were for or against it.
121
00:07:56,084 --> 00:07:59,459
Ezio Goy, for instance,
by whom we just drove.
122
00:07:59,626 --> 00:08:01,876
Did you participate in the protest's
preparations?
123
00:08:02,042 --> 00:08:06,751
We took part in the protest
with other youth organizations.
124
00:08:06,917 --> 00:08:08,501
Was there a slogan?
125
00:08:08,667 --> 00:08:14,167
No... Not even that. It was just us.
Personally, we went because
126
00:08:14,334 --> 00:08:17,001
we had to do something
to keep the guys home.
127
00:08:17,167 --> 00:08:20,959
And we ended up
over in the Aigle neighborhood,
128
00:08:21,126 --> 00:08:25,417
Augereau Street and all that,
and we faced the riot police.
129
00:08:25,584 --> 00:08:28,417
There was some fighting.
130
00:08:28,584 --> 00:08:34,376
- Did you fight? Did you throw rocks?
- Yeah! They almost hit me with their guns.
131
00:08:34,542 --> 00:08:37,959
I had pals who were drafted
for a second tour.
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00:08:38,126 --> 00:08:40,834
We were young, eighteen, twenty,
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00:08:41,001 --> 00:08:43,417
but we were friends.
Twenty-three, twenty-four.
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00:08:43,584 --> 00:08:47,667
Some of them were
on the trains that were leaving.
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00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:49,792
We wanted to keep that from happening.
136
00:08:49,959 --> 00:08:53,001
We thought, Algeria...
137
00:08:53,167 --> 00:08:55,834
We didn't understand
why they sent people back.
138
00:08:56,001 --> 00:08:59,459
If you had interviewed the protesters then,
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00:08:59,626 --> 00:09:02,584
they were all completely convinced
140
00:09:02,751 --> 00:09:04,876
that they were in the street
141
00:09:05,042 --> 00:09:08,417
for a good cause,
and that it was their idea.
142
00:09:08,584 --> 00:09:12,959
But they were actually manipulated,
they were brought to that point.
143
00:09:13,126 --> 00:09:17,334
If mothers protested, cried,
144
00:09:17,501 --> 00:09:19,834
because their sons were sent to war...
145
00:09:20,876 --> 00:09:21,876
Okay-
146
00:09:22,042 --> 00:09:24,376
The protest was carried out
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00:09:24,542 --> 00:09:27,959
by the mothers and the fiancées
of the soldiers that were leaving.
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00:09:28,126 --> 00:09:31,917
Barricades were blocking the tracks
to keep the trains from leaving.
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00:09:32,084 --> 00:09:36,251
And it came from the families.
150
00:09:36,417 --> 00:09:39,084
- Did you go?
- No. No, no.
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00:09:39,251 --> 00:09:42,917
No, because in '56, I was 15,
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and when you were 15, you thought,
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00:09:46,251 --> 00:09:50,917
"The Algerian War will end.
It will last one or two years."
154
00:09:51,084 --> 00:09:53,751
You, personally,
were you a communist activist?
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00:09:53,917 --> 00:09:55,334
I was.
156
00:09:55,501 --> 00:10:00,959
We were in this group on the French
Algeria side,
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00:10:01,126 --> 00:10:06,376
and that welcomed guys who went
from Guy Mollet's socialists
158
00:10:06,542 --> 00:10:08,917
to royalists.
159
00:10:09,084 --> 00:10:11,001
We wanted to counter-protest,
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00:10:11,167 --> 00:10:14,584
but there were fifteen of us in the end,
161
00:10:14,751 --> 00:10:20,001
while the other side was
1,000 to 2,000 as many.
162
00:10:21,792 --> 00:10:23,501
We didn't counter-protest.
163
00:10:23,667 --> 00:10:26,334
In those days, people rode bikes a lot,
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00:10:26,501 --> 00:10:29,626
and cyclists rolled by,
and I was next to
165
00:10:29,792 --> 00:10:32,042
- two military police...
- It was here?
166
00:10:32,209 --> 00:10:34,251
Down there.
167
00:10:34,417 --> 00:10:37,334
There was a fence,
and by the gate
168
00:10:38,417 --> 00:10:41,459
were two guards.
At that moment, two workers
169
00:10:41,626 --> 00:10:44,376
came out of the factory,
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00:10:44,542 --> 00:10:47,626
wanted to join the protest.
171
00:10:47,792 --> 00:10:52,001
What happened then? I don't know,
but a guard must have lost his cool,
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00:10:52,167 --> 00:10:55,334
and he hit one of the workers
with the grip of his gun.
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00:10:55,501 --> 00:10:57,917
- Right in front of you?
- Right here. And blood
174
00:10:58,084 --> 00:11:00,501
started to flow.
175
00:11:00,667 --> 00:11:04,167
It made me angry.
Everyone ran to the tracks,
176
00:11:04,334 --> 00:11:06,292
and the train kept moving forward,
177
00:11:06,459 --> 00:11:09,792
close to the protesters
who were on the tracks.
178
00:11:09,959 --> 00:11:12,376
It happened in a few minutes
of course and...
179
00:11:12,542 --> 00:11:17,876
a truck, a big truck, came
from the Cours Berriat right here.
180
00:11:18,042 --> 00:11:19,626
It was going downtown,
181
00:11:19,792 --> 00:11:22,792
but ended up being stuck on the tracks.
The train was here,
182
00:11:22,959 --> 00:11:26,209
in the middle of the fence,
pressure had built up,
183
00:11:26,376 --> 00:11:28,251
then a guy yelled at me
to pull the lever.
184
00:11:28,417 --> 00:11:31,042
"Pull the lever"...
185
00:11:31,209 --> 00:11:33,042
I then...
186
00:11:34,376 --> 00:11:38,626
gladly obeyed the order.
187
00:11:38,792 --> 00:11:42,292
I pulled a lever, a pressure lever
I suppose, I didn't know anything,
188
00:11:42,459 --> 00:11:44,792
I pulled it and it went...
189
00:11:44,959 --> 00:11:47,417
The pressure was vented.
190
00:11:47,584 --> 00:11:50,709
And it was for me.
191
00:11:50,876 --> 00:11:53,792
I didn't... Now, the cops being...
192
00:11:53,959 --> 00:11:56,709
and the altercations,
193
00:11:56,876 --> 00:11:58,917
we were all running on the tracks and...
194
00:11:59,084 --> 00:12:01,001
on each side, along the avenue.
195
00:12:01,167 --> 00:12:03,667
I saw people toppling a crane
196
00:12:03,834 --> 00:12:06,751
over in the Grands Boulevards area,
on the road
197
00:12:06,917 --> 00:12:10,334
and poured cement in the...
198
00:12:10,501 --> 00:12:12,126
in the points.
199
00:12:12,876 --> 00:12:16,209
We did some damage
to keep the trains from leaving.
200
00:12:16,376 --> 00:12:17,417
Meaning?
201
00:12:17,584 --> 00:12:21,751
We laid a crane on the tracks,
we threw cement bags on the guards.
202
00:12:21,917 --> 00:12:23,792
- You did?
- I'm not ashamed to say it.
203
00:12:23,959 --> 00:12:27,209
Yes. I have a buddy at the FNACA
who got hit by cement.
204
00:12:27,376 --> 00:12:30,209
Gaston. He was military police.
205
00:12:30,376 --> 00:12:32,209
We shared our memories.
206
00:12:32,376 --> 00:12:36,876
- He was security, I threw cement bags.
- That's it.
207
00:12:37,042 --> 00:12:39,584
We were fighting for our rights,
and I'd do it again.
208
00:12:39,751 --> 00:12:42,876
- Same here.
- Absolutely. No hard feelings.
209
00:12:43,042 --> 00:12:46,792
- Right.
- We became friends. I hope it lasts.
210
00:12:46,959 --> 00:12:48,167
In Algeria together.
211
00:12:48,334 --> 00:12:51,334
- Yeah.
- We fought together in Algeria.
212
00:12:51,501 --> 00:12:54,501
We fought here in France,
213
00:12:54,667 --> 00:12:57,167
and we were pals over there.
214
00:12:57,334 --> 00:12:59,501
- We did the same job.
- We fought for an ideal.
215
00:13:00,251 --> 00:13:02,334
Did you want to help the riot police?
216
00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:07,084
The riot police? Not so much.
217
00:13:07,251 --> 00:13:08,917
Not when you're 19.
218
00:13:10,001 --> 00:13:11,959
Like in John Houston's movies,
219
00:13:12,126 --> 00:13:14,834
where destiny doesn't care
about the protagonist's intentions,
220
00:13:15,001 --> 00:13:19,667
the train stopped by the protesters
on May 18th, 1956,
221
00:13:19,834 --> 00:13:24,042
wasn't carrying draftees,
it was the Grenoble-Chambéry line.
222
00:13:25,084 --> 00:13:28,792
A few days later,
Ezio Goy left for Algeria,
223
00:13:28,959 --> 00:13:31,376
soon to be followed
by Bruno Henrietti,
224
00:13:31,542 --> 00:13:33,751
César Delbello and Jacques Beck.
225
00:13:33,917 --> 00:13:36,542
Elsewhere in the region,
at the same time,
226
00:13:36,709 --> 00:13:38,584
other protests took place,
227
00:13:38,751 --> 00:13:42,292
other screams,
other draftees who left heartbroken.
228
00:13:42,459 --> 00:13:47,584
One day, the police came
to the factory with our slip.
229
00:13:47,751 --> 00:13:50,167
- And...
- Many workers were in your situation?
230
00:13:50,334 --> 00:13:53,792
There was another pal
who worked with me,
231
00:13:53,959 --> 00:13:55,876
and who died in Algeria.
232
00:13:57,917 --> 00:14:01,501
He was my closest friend.
233
00:14:01,667 --> 00:14:03,917
We worked together, Louis Barratier.
234
00:14:04,084 --> 00:14:08,292
He died.
From other villages, people died.
235
00:14:08,459 --> 00:14:11,667
I'm sorry...
I can never talk about those events.
236
00:14:15,751 --> 00:14:18,667
We were re-drafted.
237
00:14:18,834 --> 00:14:22,459
How did your colleagues react
when you had to leave again?
238
00:14:24,292 --> 00:14:26,001
I'd spoken with
239
00:14:26,167 --> 00:14:29,334
with the guys,
my buddies from the union.
240
00:14:29,501 --> 00:14:32,417
I was part of catholic circles,
241
00:14:32,584 --> 00:14:34,334
catholic initiatives,
242
00:14:34,501 --> 00:14:39,292
I asked myself if I should go or not...
I really didn't want to go.
243
00:14:41,376 --> 00:14:44,667
I completed basic training in Metz,
I stayed 18 months
244
00:14:44,834 --> 00:14:49,417
from November '52 to February '54.
245
00:14:49,584 --> 00:14:55,501
Then I was dismissed, and they called me
to report for duty on May 25th, 1956.
246
00:14:55,667 --> 00:14:57,751
I refused to go.
247
00:14:57,917 --> 00:15:00,751
There was a lot of work at the farm,
248
00:15:00,917 --> 00:15:04,501
the hay, the harvest,
all that work had to be done,
249
00:15:04,667 --> 00:15:09,876
and my brother was at school,
and my father, alone with my mother.
250
00:15:11,334 --> 00:15:13,626
Five or six days later,
the police came for me.
251
00:15:13,792 --> 00:15:15,542
Did you protest?
252
00:15:15,709 --> 00:15:18,292
- In Voiron, yes.
- What happened there?
253
00:15:18,459 --> 00:15:24,084
There were mothers, wives...
254
00:15:24,251 --> 00:15:28,459
of Algerian veterans who
laid on the tracks to block the autorail.
255
00:15:28,626 --> 00:15:30,292
We said.
256
00:15:30,459 --> 00:15:34,709
"You won't go, but everyone else will..."
257
00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:38,209
Maybe it was to ease our conscience but...
258
00:15:38,376 --> 00:15:42,334
maybe it's better to go
with the ones on the field,
259
00:15:42,501 --> 00:15:45,042
and help pals become aware.
260
00:15:45,209 --> 00:15:49,292
And we left for Algeria two weeks later.
We left...
261
00:15:49,459 --> 00:15:52,792
June 15th.
262
00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:56,542
We were supposed to take a train
at Marcilloles,
263
00:15:56,709 --> 00:16:00,417
and in the evening,
in the afternoon,
264
00:16:00,584 --> 00:16:02,292
the train was blown up.
265
00:16:02,459 --> 00:16:05,292
- Who did it?
- We never knew.
266
00:16:05,459 --> 00:16:08,834
- The train blew up...
- The train or the tracks?
267
00:16:09,001 --> 00:16:12,167
They blew up the track
and the engine.
268
00:16:12,334 --> 00:16:15,167
They were buddies from the area
269
00:16:15,334 --> 00:16:18,167
who couldn't accept it,
and tried to get people involved.
270
00:16:18,334 --> 00:16:23,584
But before our departure, there was just
50,100 people from the entire region.
271
00:16:23,751 --> 00:16:25,209
It wasn't...
272
00:16:25,376 --> 00:16:28,542
We were still in a rural area,
273
00:16:30,001 --> 00:16:32,376
where problems were less pressing
than in the cities.
274
00:16:32,542 --> 00:16:36,209
They put us in trucks during the night
at Saint-Rambert-D'Albon.
275
00:16:36,376 --> 00:16:39,626
Did the re-draftees protest on the way?
In the trucks...?
276
00:16:39,792 --> 00:16:41,959
We were escorted by the riot police.
277
00:16:42,126 --> 00:16:45,417
They followed the train all the way
to Marseille.
278
00:16:45,584 --> 00:16:47,917
How did the re-draftees feel?
279
00:16:48,084 --> 00:16:51,959
It wasn't pretty...
Some of them deserted.
280
00:16:52,126 --> 00:16:56,417
- At that moment.
- Yes. Two. I don't know what happened.
281
00:16:56,584 --> 00:16:59,126
Two guys, one of them was in my dorm,
282
00:16:59,292 --> 00:17:01,917
deserted and left...
283
00:17:02,084 --> 00:17:05,459
He left a message saying
he was leaving for the USSR.
284
00:17:05,626 --> 00:17:08,376
Now, were did he go? I don't know.
285
00:17:09,042 --> 00:17:12,417
Then they put us on a boat
at Port-Vendres,
286
00:17:12,584 --> 00:17:16,751
because there were many protests
in Marseille...
287
00:17:16,917 --> 00:17:20,626
There wasn't much of a population
in the area, the risks were lower.
288
00:17:20,792 --> 00:17:24,501
How were the re-draftee's state of mind
on the boat? Did they protest?
289
00:17:24,667 --> 00:17:28,834
There were protests until we boarded.
290
00:17:29,001 --> 00:17:33,084
I remember the ceremony
in the barracks' yard,
291
00:17:33,251 --> 00:17:36,792
when people sang "The Deserter".
I didn't know the song then.
292
00:17:36,959 --> 00:17:38,959
I thought it was beautiful, but...
293
00:17:41,251 --> 00:17:43,834
I discovered it then.
294
00:17:44,001 --> 00:17:46,501
The hostility was obvious.
295
00:17:46,667 --> 00:17:49,917
The soldiers took arms backwards,
296
00:17:50,084 --> 00:17:52,459
people refused to present them,
I did that.
297
00:17:52,626 --> 00:17:55,751
Protesters screamed against the war.
298
00:17:55,917 --> 00:17:58,459
The re-drafted showed huge opposition.
299
00:17:58,626 --> 00:18:01,709
- What about the officers?
- They said nothing.
300
00:18:01,876 --> 00:18:04,917
I remember when we got on the train,
on the platform,
301
00:18:05,084 --> 00:18:09,042
one said, "just let them do it.
When they lose their buddies,
302
00:18:09,209 --> 00:18:10,709
they will start doing war."
303
00:18:10,876 --> 00:18:15,126
Going to Algeria was presented to us,
and that's how I saw it,
304
00:18:15,292 --> 00:18:19,584
as being about pacifying.
The FLN was presented
305
00:18:19,751 --> 00:18:24,167
through their attacks on civilians.
306
00:18:24,334 --> 00:18:26,959
In 1954, the teachers,
307
00:18:27,126 --> 00:18:31,167
burning farms, women and children
getting their throats cut.
308
00:18:31,334 --> 00:18:32,751
The country was calling us.
309
00:18:32,917 --> 00:18:37,876
I had nothing against it at the time,
in the mindset I was in.
310
00:18:38,042 --> 00:18:41,251
I wanted to go.
I didn't dislike the idea.
311
00:18:41,417 --> 00:18:46,126
For the thrills or did you have
political or ideological reasons?
312
00:18:46,292 --> 00:18:50,751
No political or ideological reasons
whatsoever, just the thrills.
313
00:18:51,834 --> 00:18:55,876
I wanted to be in the army,
like any good Frenchman.
314
00:18:56,042 --> 00:18:57,959
But not in a militaristic mindset.
315
00:18:58,126 --> 00:19:00,959
As I saw it,
there wasn't even an issue,
316
00:19:01,126 --> 00:19:03,376
I had to do my military service.
317
00:19:03,542 --> 00:19:06,292
I left because I was drafted.
I was a draftee.
318
00:19:06,459 --> 00:19:08,376
But I also go because
319
00:19:08,542 --> 00:19:12,334
I think that Algeria is a French
département', and it should stay French.
320
00:20:48,001 --> 00:20:49,959
When you land,
321
00:20:50,126 --> 00:20:52,917
you hear the national anthem,
you get flowers,
322
00:20:53,084 --> 00:20:55,501
but it doesn't last.
323
00:20:55,667 --> 00:20:58,334
Twenty-four hours later,
you understand.
324
00:20:58,501 --> 00:21:01,292
- What?
- That you are in it.
325
00:21:01,459 --> 00:21:03,792
That it's a real war in the end.
326
00:21:03,959 --> 00:21:06,959
We landed in Algeria.
It was a discovery.
327
00:21:07,126 --> 00:21:08,542
I didn't know it.
328
00:21:08,709 --> 00:21:13,709
We were surprised when we arrived,
we were given Lebel rifles.
329
00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:16,209
They were old WWI rifles.
330
00:21:16,376 --> 00:21:19,417
We had a warm welcome.
331
00:21:19,584 --> 00:21:22,792
We got shots against yellow fever.
332
00:21:22,959 --> 00:21:25,501
We lowered our pants
333
00:21:25,667 --> 00:21:28,251
and each one of us got his shot.
334
00:21:28,417 --> 00:21:30,667
Then...
335
00:21:30,834 --> 00:21:35,959
we waited a couple of days,
and most of us, we were about a hundred,
336
00:21:36,126 --> 00:21:38,751
went to the infirmary,
because we caught the fever.
337
00:21:38,917 --> 00:21:43,501
When we arrived, the captain, a Dijon
mustard merchant, re-drafted like us,
338
00:21:43,667 --> 00:21:48,542
told us... He told us...
339
00:21:48,709 --> 00:21:51,584
"We're going there, but don't worry,
340
00:21:51,751 --> 00:21:54,584
we're going for six months,
we'll stick to the shade,
341
00:21:54,751 --> 00:21:59,084
and if they don't mess with us,
we'll take it easy."
342
00:21:59,251 --> 00:22:03,084
We spent our first nights, a few nights,
under a tent.
343
00:22:03,251 --> 00:22:06,834
There were thousands of us,
there were many of us.
344
00:22:07,001 --> 00:22:11,959
The first night, the camp got shot at,
there was panic, I panicked too.
345
00:22:12,126 --> 00:22:15,834
We thought, "What's happening,
they're shooting at us on the first night."
346
00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:20,334
The watchmen, people like us
who were rookies, all fired back.
347
00:22:20,501 --> 00:22:22,792
It felt like a big attack.
348
00:22:22,959 --> 00:22:27,834
They put us in a wheat field, a huge one.
Told us we were sleeping there.
349
00:22:28,001 --> 00:22:31,876
We put up the tents,
and they fired at us that night.
350
00:22:32,042 --> 00:22:35,542
- The first night? How did it go?
- The first night.
351
00:22:35,709 --> 00:22:40,459
Nobody died, but it was a warning.
352
00:22:40,626 --> 00:22:43,459
Telling us, you have nothing to do here.
353
00:22:43,626 --> 00:22:45,626
Did you understand
what you were doing there?
354
00:22:45,792 --> 00:22:48,417
Not really.
We wondered why we were there.
355
00:22:48,584 --> 00:22:51,667
And we had weapons, but...
356
00:22:51,834 --> 00:22:57,167
the ammunition was sewn
in the bags.
357
00:22:57,334 --> 00:23:00,251
- So you couldn't fire back?
- Well, no.
358
00:23:00,417 --> 00:23:03,251
But the next day,
359
00:23:03,417 --> 00:23:05,667
it wasn't sewn anymore.
360
00:23:05,834 --> 00:23:08,042
That was fast.
361
00:23:08,209 --> 00:23:11,167
Once in Algiers, you're given a gun.
362
00:23:11,334 --> 00:23:13,501
It's strange.
363
00:23:15,251 --> 00:23:19,959
We wanted to take leaves,
because we were leaving the next day.
364
00:23:20,126 --> 00:23:24,709
So we thought we would take a half day,
visit Algiers.
365
00:23:26,001 --> 00:23:30,959
We were nervous. We, jarheads,
knew there were attacks in the streets.
366
00:23:31,126 --> 00:23:35,292
To get here and get killed on leave.
367
00:23:35,459 --> 00:23:40,334
We went out anyway.
It was life as usual in Algiers.
368
00:23:40,501 --> 00:23:42,751
I remember the day we went out.
369
00:23:43,834 --> 00:23:47,042
- It went okay.
- What did you do there?
370
00:23:47,209 --> 00:23:50,584
I was second class.
371
00:23:50,751 --> 00:23:53,542
I messed around, and I was second class.
372
00:23:53,709 --> 00:23:55,959
Where did your region's draftees
come from?
373
00:23:56,126 --> 00:24:00,167
A lot were from the Lyon region,
from the Drome,
374
00:24:00,334 --> 00:24:03,501
most of them were workers,
like me.
375
00:24:03,667 --> 00:24:06,876
- Farmers too?
- Farmers, yes. Of course.
376
00:24:07,042 --> 00:24:10,292
Quite a few. I remember guys
who got there, they'd taken the train
377
00:24:10,459 --> 00:24:12,959
for the first time to join the army.
378
00:24:13,959 --> 00:24:17,917
They'd never taken the train, nothing.
They didn't even know what it was.
379
00:24:18,084 --> 00:24:19,792
Algeria was their first trip.
380
00:24:19,959 --> 00:24:22,501
Yes, it was. For me too.
381
00:24:22,667 --> 00:24:26,709
This is the Taourirt bridge,
the first post
382
00:24:26,876 --> 00:24:29,251
where we landed when we got there.
383
00:24:30,417 --> 00:24:35,167
We patrolled villages
384
00:24:35,334 --> 00:24:37,709
in the area.
385
00:24:37,876 --> 00:24:42,376
And in the morning,
we'd often get guys
386
00:24:42,542 --> 00:24:45,167
in the barracks, the huts,
387
00:24:45,334 --> 00:24:47,417
and put them to work.
388
00:24:47,584 --> 00:24:50,167
We'd give them some work to do.
389
00:24:50,334 --> 00:24:52,501
We were supposed to fetch them.
390
00:24:52,667 --> 00:24:57,167
- Did they volunteer for work?
- Well, not really.
391
00:24:57,334 --> 00:25:01,709
At the Taourirt bridge, we were
in charge of the section on a piton,
392
00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:05,667
we controlled several valleys,
the road to Tizi-Ouzou,
393
00:25:05,834 --> 00:25:10,917
and there was a check point
where we'd control everyone,
394
00:25:11,084 --> 00:25:14,001
including army convoys.
395
00:25:15,084 --> 00:25:17,959
We got our water from a spring,
396
00:25:18,126 --> 00:25:20,167
and we were allowed one helmet
of water a day.
397
00:25:20,334 --> 00:25:25,542
It did everything. Washed our faces,
our butts, our socks, everything,
398
00:25:25,709 --> 00:25:27,876
with one helmet a day.
399
00:25:28,042 --> 00:25:30,667
Watch was scary.
400
00:25:30,834 --> 00:25:34,959
We were afraid because,
when we heard a noise, one time I shot...
401
00:25:35,126 --> 00:25:40,459
Jackals came up in the trash.
402
00:25:40,626 --> 00:25:42,917
And we heard can noises,
403
00:25:43,084 --> 00:25:46,667
so we often opened fire
wondering what it was,
404
00:25:46,834 --> 00:25:49,251
because nights were a bit scary.
405
00:25:49,417 --> 00:25:53,167
When you were on your piton,
how did you entertain yourselves?
406
00:25:53,334 --> 00:25:58,209
We didn't. We had nothing to do.
We had a common room,
407
00:25:58,376 --> 00:26:02,876
as big as half of this room,
where we'd have drinks,
408
00:26:03,042 --> 00:26:07,167
we had beer.
Otherwise, we'd play ball in the camp.
409
00:26:07,917 --> 00:26:12,584
When we came back from missions,
sometimes we got wasted on beer.
410
00:26:12,751 --> 00:26:14,876
It happened often.
411
00:26:15,042 --> 00:26:17,292
One of my mates practiced photography.
412
00:26:17,459 --> 00:26:21,417
Some played cards,
but we were isolated.
413
00:26:21,584 --> 00:26:24,834
We listened to local radio,
414
00:26:25,001 --> 00:26:27,251
and the... I forget, but
415
00:26:27,417 --> 00:26:32,417
- the songs that were popular at the time.
- Do you remember?
416
00:26:32,584 --> 00:26:37,334
Pardon? No, I don't remember. There was
Gloria Lasso, I had a crush on her.
417
00:28:14,542 --> 00:28:17,626
I saw my first dead body at that time.
418
00:28:17,792 --> 00:28:24,417
A guy who had been executed
by the FLN.
419
00:28:24,584 --> 00:28:28,126
He had a hood over his head.
We found him one morning in a ditch.
420
00:28:28,292 --> 00:28:31,751
He had a bag tied with a wire.
421
00:28:31,917 --> 00:28:36,042
A bullet in the head.
The first dead body I found on that piton.
422
00:28:36,209 --> 00:28:40,334
We found a mass grave during a mission.
423
00:28:41,959 --> 00:28:44,376
Eleven guys had their throats cut.
424
00:28:44,542 --> 00:28:48,667
- Civilians. Yes.
- Killed by the FLN?
425
00:28:48,834 --> 00:28:51,876
So we found that...
426
00:28:52,042 --> 00:28:54,501
The smell was horrendous.
427
00:28:56,542 --> 00:28:59,667
Our missions mostly took us
428
00:28:59,834 --> 00:29:04,001
to the Djurdjura range. We walked
a lot because the roads were cut.
429
00:29:04,167 --> 00:29:08,626
We couldn't always take the truck,
we'd often leave at night.
430
00:29:08,792 --> 00:29:14,584
We did things like searches,
grid searches.
431
00:29:14,751 --> 00:29:18,001
At night there was always a night patrol.
432
00:29:18,167 --> 00:29:20,167
A night ambush.
433
00:29:20,917 --> 00:29:24,376
When you were on a mission,
during a watch, were you afraid?
434
00:29:24,542 --> 00:29:26,751
Better be. Often.
435
00:29:26,917 --> 00:29:30,209
We were driving back to camp,
436
00:29:30,376 --> 00:29:35,667
and they started shooting,
we were in the woods.
437
00:29:35,834 --> 00:29:40,417
I didn't see anything.
I heard the noise, of course, the shots.
438
00:29:40,584 --> 00:29:44,584
The first thing I did was
jump out of the truck and hide.
439
00:29:44,751 --> 00:29:47,334
I didn't shoot a single bullet.
440
00:29:47,501 --> 00:29:50,167
- Why...?
- I was scared.
441
00:29:50,334 --> 00:29:53,251
I won't hide that I was afraid.
I was always afraid.
442
00:29:54,334 --> 00:29:58,417
I was the company's quartermaster,
I was in charge of weapons.
443
00:29:58,584 --> 00:30:01,251
We had weapons
that had been used in Indochina.
444
00:30:01,417 --> 00:30:07,042
Our rifles, our sub-machine guns,
were often jammed.
445
00:30:07,209 --> 00:30:10,167
Where there accidents?
446
00:30:10,334 --> 00:30:14,084
I didn't witness any, but...
447
00:30:14,251 --> 00:30:18,792
several times, we had to take
weapons from draftees.
448
00:30:18,959 --> 00:30:22,001
Often, the nerves gave out.
449
00:30:22,167 --> 00:30:24,501
It was a danger for the section.
450
00:30:25,709 --> 00:30:29,042
This is a lunch break during a mission
451
00:30:29,209 --> 00:30:33,084
with our captain, Juif.
452
00:30:34,501 --> 00:30:38,709
This is a mission, a grid search.
453
00:30:39,792 --> 00:30:42,709
Those are burning huts.
454
00:30:43,459 --> 00:30:46,792
I was scared. I won't lie.
455
00:30:46,959 --> 00:30:51,667
I valued my life.
Others did too, but some...
456
00:30:51,834 --> 00:30:56,876
loved it, they loved war.
457
00:30:57,042 --> 00:30:59,626
You know, it...
458
00:30:59,792 --> 00:31:03,501
At first, you're surprised,
because you never expect...
459
00:31:03,667 --> 00:31:10,209
Of course, we leave with an objective,
on a mission, for a grid-search,
460
00:31:10,376 --> 00:31:14,626
following some intelligence,
we know we're looking for someone,
461
00:31:14,792 --> 00:31:18,376
but it's also a big surprise
when you hear shots.
462
00:31:18,542 --> 00:31:22,209
And in this case...
463
00:31:22,376 --> 00:31:27,001
it's automatic.
You have a weapon, you defend yourself.
464
00:31:27,167 --> 00:31:31,334
Sometimes it went okay,
sometimes not,
465
00:31:31,501 --> 00:31:36,876
since some of the guys
didn't make it.
466
00:31:38,251 --> 00:31:41,792
What do you mean by "not okay"?
467
00:31:43,292 --> 00:31:46,834
Let's say that several times I was...
468
00:31:47,001 --> 00:31:51,834
we were surrounded by Fellaghas,
that's what we called them,
469
00:31:52,001 --> 00:31:55,751
and we only survived
470
00:31:55,917 --> 00:31:59,542
thanks to artillery and air support.
471
00:31:59,709 --> 00:32:02,292
I'd heard
472
00:32:02,459 --> 00:32:06,376
Fellaghas calling to attack,
"Bloody Frenchmen, we're coming."
473
00:32:06,542 --> 00:32:11,459
And we had no ammunition left.
So in those cases,
474
00:32:11,626 --> 00:32:14,292
you just wait for the end,
if you will.
475
00:32:17,709 --> 00:32:19,959
- You thought it was over.
- Yeah.
476
00:32:29,709 --> 00:32:34,959
And there was another mission,
477
00:32:35,126 --> 00:32:38,667
where I can say it was this close for us.
478
00:32:38,834 --> 00:32:45,501
That day, it was the artillery
who got us out of there.
479
00:32:45,667 --> 00:32:50,084
The captain called the artillery
480
00:32:50,251 --> 00:32:54,001
that was behind us, on the mission,
481
00:32:54,167 --> 00:32:58,376
and after we gave our position,
they started firing,
482
00:32:58,542 --> 00:33:02,501
but we were so close to the Fellaghas
483
00:33:02,667 --> 00:33:06,584
that shells fell right in front of us,
so much so
484
00:33:06,751 --> 00:33:10,001
that shrapnel hit us. I even...
485
00:33:10,167 --> 00:33:13,626
took one, close to me.
486
00:33:13,792 --> 00:33:15,251
You kept it as a souvenir?
487
00:33:15,417 --> 00:33:19,876
This piece of shrapnel is
very important for me.
488
00:33:20,042 --> 00:33:24,459
A piece of shrapnel, and I can tell you
these shells saved our lives.
489
00:33:24,626 --> 00:33:27,501
Another time,
there was a skirmish in the woods.
490
00:33:27,667 --> 00:33:29,584
And...
491
00:33:29,751 --> 00:33:32,959
I had a rifle
492
00:33:33,126 --> 00:33:35,667
and that day I...
493
00:33:35,834 --> 00:33:39,417
I had used up all my clips.
494
00:33:39,584 --> 00:33:42,584
I had nothing left, so I was waiting.
495
00:33:42,751 --> 00:33:44,626
The Fellaghas were moving on us,
496
00:33:44,792 --> 00:33:48,959
and that day,
the composure of our captain,
497
00:33:49,126 --> 00:33:51,167
Captain Juif...
498
00:33:51,334 --> 00:33:53,876
I have good memories of him.
499
00:33:55,167 --> 00:34:00,084
He gave us so much courage
that we were able to respond.
500
00:34:00,251 --> 00:34:03,167
Bullets were flying everywhere,
501
00:34:03,334 --> 00:34:07,251
we could see them fall around us,
the leaves falling.
502
00:34:07,417 --> 00:34:13,001
He stood tall and said,
"Come on, kids, let's fall back."
503
00:34:13,167 --> 00:34:17,251
That day, I think he saved us.
504
00:34:17,417 --> 00:34:21,042
- You followed him?
- We followed him.
505
00:34:21,209 --> 00:34:25,167
You have to follow somebody like that.
506
00:34:25,334 --> 00:34:29,501
It's great,
it gives you a shot in the arm,
507
00:34:29,667 --> 00:34:32,626
you can react to...
508
00:34:34,042 --> 00:34:37,292
- And you had no ammo left?
- No, I had nothing left.
509
00:34:37,459 --> 00:34:42,292
- And you said you were waiting...
- I was, yeah. That day I got really scared.
510
00:34:42,459 --> 00:34:45,959
I thought about my family, my fiancée.
511
00:34:46,126 --> 00:34:48,376
And you just wait.
512
00:34:51,042 --> 00:34:54,626
Why is it so hard today
to talk about that war?
513
00:34:54,792 --> 00:34:57,417
I know it seems ridiculous,
514
00:34:57,584 --> 00:34:59,792
but thirty years later,
515
00:34:59,959 --> 00:35:03,001
maybe it's my personality,
516
00:35:03,167 --> 00:35:05,709
but when you've seen death
from that close,
517
00:35:05,876 --> 00:35:08,959
it's still emotional 30 years later. Yes.
518
00:35:10,084 --> 00:35:12,459
Do you talk about what you did there?
519
00:35:12,626 --> 00:35:15,459
No, I never talked about it.
I think this is the first time.
520
00:35:15,626 --> 00:35:19,084
Even my family doesn't know
all these details.
521
00:35:22,001 --> 00:35:25,917
I think it's a good
thing for draftees to talk.
522
00:35:27,459 --> 00:35:29,792
Because in France, I think,
523
00:35:30,876 --> 00:35:36,376
except for the families who suffered,
the others don't know the Algerian War.
524
00:35:37,042 --> 00:35:40,251
We will be walking up
Grande Armée Avenue
525
00:35:40,417 --> 00:35:45,001
to the Étoile. Flags in front...
526
00:35:46,251 --> 00:35:49,084
- Do you feel pain when you talk about it?
- Yes.
527
00:35:49,251 --> 00:35:50,501
A lot.
528
00:35:50,667 --> 00:35:53,876
"April 22nd, 1958,
529
00:35:54,042 --> 00:35:57,959
to the President of the Republic,
I was drafted to go to Algeria.
530
00:35:58,126 --> 00:36:03,209
I chose to refuse to participate in the war
France is waging in Algeria,
531
00:36:03,376 --> 00:36:06,542
threatening to spread
all over North Africa.
532
00:36:06,709 --> 00:36:10,042
My conscience couldn't accept
fighting against a people
533
00:36:10,209 --> 00:36:13,209
that I would like to consider a friend
and an ally of France.
534
00:36:13,376 --> 00:36:16,042
I want to defend the friendship
between the French and Algerians
535
00:36:16,209 --> 00:36:19,751
and stay faithful to the French traditions
of justice and liberty,
536
00:36:19,917 --> 00:36:22,376
mentioned
in the Constitution's preamble.
537
00:36:22,542 --> 00:36:25,876
I am ready to take up arms
to defend the France I love
538
00:36:26,042 --> 00:36:29,376
more than anything if it is attacked,
but I refuse
539
00:36:29,542 --> 00:36:33,417
to commit actions
that would fill me with remorse.
540
00:36:33,584 --> 00:36:36,626
Please, Mr. President,
believe in my attachment to
541
00:36:36,792 --> 00:36:39,292
and my high consideration for
the French Republic
542
00:36:39,459 --> 00:36:41,876
and its constitution."
543
00:36:44,042 --> 00:36:45,542
You wrote that?
544
00:36:45,709 --> 00:36:49,084
I did, and I sent it
545
00:36:49,251 --> 00:36:53,042
to President Coty,
since it was before May 13th.
546
00:36:54,209 --> 00:36:56,626
- He never replied, right?
- Of course.
547
00:36:56,792 --> 00:37:00,417
What did your superiors
at the Communist Party say
548
00:37:00,584 --> 00:37:05,251
- when you shared your decision?
- They asked if I had the courage.
549
00:37:05,417 --> 00:37:08,167
It was a hard path to follow to the end
550
00:37:08,334 --> 00:37:10,876
knowing you will end up in jail
for two years,
551
00:37:11,042 --> 00:37:16,001
in addition to the 28 months
of military service.
552
00:37:16,167 --> 00:37:17,667
At that time, what was
553
00:37:17,834 --> 00:37:22,876
the Communist Party's official stance
about disobedience?
554
00:37:23,042 --> 00:37:26,751
The party never encouraged
disobedience or desertion.
555
00:37:26,917 --> 00:37:29,792
The Communist Party always said
556
00:37:29,959 --> 00:37:34,834
that soldiers belong to the army.
They were right.
557
00:37:35,001 --> 00:37:40,292
I went to see the Communist Party's
Federation Secretary
558
00:37:40,459 --> 00:37:43,792
to ask him how to join
559
00:37:43,959 --> 00:37:48,542
the few disobedient draftees.
I was morally ready to do it.
560
00:37:48,709 --> 00:37:52,209
And he strongly discouraged it,
561
00:37:52,376 --> 00:37:54,876
saying that
562
00:37:55,042 --> 00:37:58,584
a Communist belonged in the army,
under the Leninist principle.
563
00:37:58,751 --> 00:38:03,834
You weren't bothered when communist
representatives voted for special powers?
564
00:38:04,001 --> 00:38:07,542
Afterwards.
I asked the question afterwards.
565
00:38:07,709 --> 00:38:09,209
Not at the time.
566
00:38:09,376 --> 00:38:12,709
- You accepted it?
- I did, because
567
00:38:12,876 --> 00:38:19,626
at that time, there could still be a chance
for peace
568
00:38:19,792 --> 00:38:23,584
by a socialist government.
569
00:38:24,834 --> 00:38:27,542
That government didn't take
the opportunity.
570
00:38:27,709 --> 00:38:30,792
But we thought it was still possible.
571
00:38:30,959 --> 00:38:34,292
We had to give them special powers
so they'd have the means.
572
00:38:34,459 --> 00:38:36,376
Those means were to fight the war.
573
00:38:36,542 --> 00:38:40,292
That too, but we understood that later.
574
00:38:40,459 --> 00:38:45,167
- How late?
- Much later. At the end.
575
00:38:45,334 --> 00:38:49,084
It seemed that special powers could
576
00:38:49,251 --> 00:38:52,126
contribute to,
and should bring peace in Algeria,
577
00:38:52,292 --> 00:38:53,959
after negotiations.
578
00:38:54,126 --> 00:38:59,334
You'd left as a Communist
beneath the uniform to oppose the war.
579
00:38:59,501 --> 00:39:04,751
Did you feel that you could somehow
oppose it on the field?
580
00:39:04,917 --> 00:39:08,667
It doesn't seem obvious, indeed,
581
00:39:08,834 --> 00:39:11,376
to be able to protest
while being in uniform.
582
00:39:11,542 --> 00:39:15,334
I was fearful of going there
as a Communist.
583
00:39:15,501 --> 00:39:19,042
I had a few friends who had returned
584
00:39:19,209 --> 00:39:24,167
after being re-drafted,
and who told
585
00:39:24,334 --> 00:39:28,542
about what happened to them,
the bullying, the humiliations,
586
00:39:28,709 --> 00:39:31,209
a fear that was forced on them,
587
00:39:31,376 --> 00:39:36,459
and I think it made me more afraid,
and revolted by the war, that's true.
588
00:39:36,626 --> 00:39:38,042
But you left anyway.
589
00:39:38,209 --> 00:39:42,042
I left anyway, yes.
590
00:39:42,209 --> 00:39:43,959
The atmosphere was such
591
00:39:44,126 --> 00:39:48,626
that if you were isolated,
there was no other choice.
592
00:39:48,792 --> 00:39:51,667
- You carried a rifle like the others.
- Of course.
593
00:39:51,834 --> 00:39:55,667
- And if you had to shoot, you'd do it.
- Of course. For sure.
594
00:39:55,834 --> 00:40:01,584
When I went out, even when I had R&R,
595
00:40:01,751 --> 00:40:03,917
I also had a gun on me.
596
00:40:04,084 --> 00:40:08,042
And indeed,
if you had to shoot you had to shoot.
597
00:40:08,209 --> 00:40:11,167
In the right situation,
598
00:40:11,334 --> 00:40:13,501
including if it were to save my own life.
599
00:40:13,667 --> 00:40:16,959
There was a complete divorce between
what happened and your convictions.
600
00:40:17,126 --> 00:40:19,417
I don't know if you can say that,
601
00:40:19,584 --> 00:40:22,334
it was also about our lives.
602
00:40:22,501 --> 00:40:27,042
We were fighting a war.
603
00:40:27,209 --> 00:40:31,417
And that war makes you
604
00:40:31,584 --> 00:40:35,626
adopt stances that contradict
those you defend.
605
00:40:35,792 --> 00:40:38,959
If I had seen one of my buddies maimed,
606
00:40:39,126 --> 00:40:44,334
I would certainly have
adopted stances that were...
607
00:40:44,501 --> 00:40:47,542
- Warlike.
- Yes, for sure.
608
00:40:48,251 --> 00:40:52,542
- Did you see wounded Algerians?
- Yes.
609
00:40:52,709 --> 00:40:57,834
I thought about it a lot.
I picked up a wounded man,
610
00:40:58,001 --> 00:41:02,334
and I talked to him...
Well, questioned him,
611
00:41:02,501 --> 00:41:06,042
and I found out he had worked
at the Saint-Etienne mine.
612
00:41:06,209 --> 00:41:08,209
He was a Saint-Etienne miner.
613
00:41:08,376 --> 00:41:11,917
An Algerian worker who...
614
00:41:12,084 --> 00:41:16,584
at that time had joined the FLN
to fight the French Army.
615
00:41:16,751 --> 00:41:21,292
It affected me quite a bit,
the fact that...
616
00:41:21,459 --> 00:41:24,376
I, a worker, found myself
617
00:41:24,542 --> 00:41:28,084
facing another worker
because of the government's will.
618
00:41:28,251 --> 00:41:31,292
As a Communist activist
619
00:41:31,459 --> 00:41:34,251
I was suspicious,
and I was arrested
620
00:41:34,417 --> 00:41:39,209
because ammunition was missing,
they said.
621
00:41:39,376 --> 00:41:44,917
And well, a detachment from Michelet
came to arrest three men.
622
00:41:45,084 --> 00:41:48,667
I was among them, I think there was a...
623
00:41:48,834 --> 00:41:52,209
a Musl... yes, a Muslim soldier with me,
624
00:41:52,376 --> 00:41:55,042
and a third man I've forgotten about,
625
00:41:55,209 --> 00:41:57,459
and we were taken
626
00:41:57,626 --> 00:42:02,542
to a police detachment facility,
we called them DOP,
627
00:42:02,709 --> 00:42:05,417
where I was interrogated,
628
00:42:05,584 --> 00:42:09,042
and where I could hear
629
00:42:09,209 --> 00:42:12,834
in the neighboring rooms,
the screams
630
00:42:13,001 --> 00:42:16,167
of people who were being
beaten or tortured, yes.
631
00:42:16,334 --> 00:42:20,584
I spent two nights there,
632
00:42:20,751 --> 00:42:25,251
and I heard people, and women,
633
00:42:25,417 --> 00:42:28,584
being beaten or tortured.
634
00:42:28,751 --> 00:42:30,292
And what happened to you?
635
00:42:31,584 --> 00:42:34,834
Well, I got beat up a little,
but not too much.
636
00:42:35,001 --> 00:42:37,542
Threats, many threats.
637
00:42:37,709 --> 00:42:41,751
I was married, I had a child,
638
00:42:41,917 --> 00:42:44,792
so they threatened my...
639
00:42:44,959 --> 00:42:49,292
me never going back to civilian life,
verbal threats.
640
00:42:49,459 --> 00:42:52,001
And I don't know,
after two days...
641
00:42:52,167 --> 00:42:56,417
after two nights, I was released.
642
00:42:56,584 --> 00:42:59,376
They gave me my weapon back,
they had taken it,
643
00:42:59,542 --> 00:43:02,751
and it was a sign that I was no longer
a soldier for 48 hours.
644
00:43:02,917 --> 00:43:06,209
And they moved me to another section,
they put me in operations.
645
00:43:06,376 --> 00:43:10,292
What happened
after your letter to the president?
646
00:43:10,459 --> 00:43:13,584
I was immediately locked up.
647
00:43:13,751 --> 00:43:18,709
In prison. I was put aside,
isolated from other soldiers,
648
00:43:18,876 --> 00:43:22,876
because they feared contagion,
if you will.
649
00:43:23,042 --> 00:43:27,167
And I was escorted
650
00:43:27,334 --> 00:43:33,626
to Algeria in the regiment
I was supposed to join.
651
00:43:33,792 --> 00:43:38,834
How did the officers treat you
652
00:43:39,001 --> 00:43:41,501
when you joined?
653
00:43:41,667 --> 00:43:46,042
They wanted to force me
to go on missions.
654
00:43:46,209 --> 00:43:48,084
They tried everything.
655
00:43:48,251 --> 00:43:50,667
They pressured me,
656
00:43:50,834 --> 00:43:53,292
they tried to send me out there
without a weapon,
657
00:43:53,459 --> 00:43:57,959
with a radio.
They tried everything, I refused.
658
00:43:58,126 --> 00:44:02,209
I said, no, I won't take part in this war
that goes against my conscience.
659
00:44:02,376 --> 00:44:05,084
Was there physical pressure?
660
00:44:06,542 --> 00:44:08,959
Not when I refused, but after that
661
00:44:09,126 --> 00:44:11,792
when I was jailed
at Cherchell Military School.
662
00:44:11,959 --> 00:44:15,792
- How long after that?
- In the couple of weeks that followed.
663
00:44:15,959 --> 00:44:18,667
I was brutalized by paratroopers.
664
00:44:20,001 --> 00:44:24,292
- What do you mean by "brutalized"?
- They clubbed me
665
00:44:24,459 --> 00:44:28,167
- with a baton.
- What did they say?
666
00:44:30,126 --> 00:44:32,209
I don't remember exactly,
667
00:44:32,376 --> 00:44:37,001
but the officer was obviously
668
00:44:37,167 --> 00:44:39,001
an officer from the right,
far-right even,
669
00:44:39,167 --> 00:44:42,209
and he said something like,
670
00:44:42,376 --> 00:44:47,167
"Guys like you should be shot."
671
00:44:47,334 --> 00:44:49,751
He threatened me with his gun.
672
00:44:51,376 --> 00:44:55,417
- Did you fear for your life then?
- You don't think about that.
673
00:44:57,501 --> 00:45:01,626
How long did you stay in jail
at Cherchell?
674
00:45:01,792 --> 00:45:04,709
A couple of weeks,
675
00:45:04,876 --> 00:45:09,042
then I was transferred
to the Algiers' military prison,
676
00:45:10,459 --> 00:45:12,959
where I found other soldiers in my case.
677
00:45:13,126 --> 00:45:15,126
During the entire war
678
00:45:15,292 --> 00:45:19,084
there were about 40 guys
679
00:45:19,251 --> 00:45:24,417
who refused to serve...
680
00:45:26,626 --> 00:45:31,876
and who accepted to go
before the court and be sentenced.
681
00:45:32,042 --> 00:45:36,417
What were the conditions
in the Algiers' military prison?
682
00:45:36,584 --> 00:45:41,751
We were in like underground cells.
683
00:45:41,917 --> 00:45:44,917
We didn't see much light.
684
00:45:45,084 --> 00:45:50,001
There was two of us in a cell
that was meant for one inmate.
685
00:45:50,167 --> 00:45:55,292
And we would have our yard time
between very high walls,
686
00:45:55,459 --> 00:45:58,417
and we saw the sun a few hours a day.
687
00:45:58,584 --> 00:46:02,084
But were not abused, we were...
688
00:46:02,251 --> 00:46:04,501
fed normally.
689
00:46:04,667 --> 00:46:07,709
That's when you went to military court?
690
00:46:07,876 --> 00:46:11,292
I went in August 1958,
691
00:46:11,459 --> 00:46:16,209
and I was sentenced
to two years in jail for disobedience.
692
00:46:16,376 --> 00:46:19,792
- And then you were transferred to France?
- In the Fall.
693
00:46:21,251 --> 00:46:26,126
The ten or twelve
694
00:46:26,292 --> 00:46:28,792
from Algiers' prison,
695
00:46:28,959 --> 00:46:31,834
plus others who were
from other prisons in Algeria.
696
00:46:32,001 --> 00:46:35,584
The fifteen of us were transferred
697
00:46:35,751 --> 00:46:37,917
to Nîmes' central prison.
698
00:46:38,084 --> 00:46:42,542
- How were the conditions there?
- Much better.
699
00:46:42,709 --> 00:46:45,959
We were with common law inmates,
very long sentences,
700
00:46:46,126 --> 00:46:48,792
life in prison for 15 years.
701
00:46:48,959 --> 00:46:52,084
- We wondered why they put us there.
- Did you talk to them?
702
00:46:52,251 --> 00:46:55,542
We talked to them, lived with them.
703
00:46:55,709 --> 00:46:59,667
But we had
the guards' sympathy and help,
704
00:46:59,834 --> 00:47:03,917
who, for union and political reasons,
helped us. They'd send our mail,
705
00:47:04,084 --> 00:47:07,959
send us care packages,
gave us the news...
706
00:47:08,126 --> 00:47:10,709
newspapers mostly,
which were forbidden for us.
707
00:47:11,459 --> 00:47:14,376
When I got out, I was reenlisted.
708
00:47:14,542 --> 00:47:17,459
Prison didn't exempt you
from military service.
709
00:47:17,626 --> 00:47:20,292
I still had 14 months to do.
710
00:47:20,459 --> 00:47:23,542
I did two months in France,
and I was sent back to Algeria.
711
00:47:23,709 --> 00:47:27,751
- And you didn't refuse to go?
- I didn't refuse to...
712
00:47:27,917 --> 00:47:31,376
a second time.
First, because I'd already sacrificed
713
00:47:31,542 --> 00:47:35,834
two years of my youth,
and it was still hard
714
00:47:36,001 --> 00:47:38,459
for my family, my wife,
and for me
715
00:47:38,626 --> 00:47:40,792
to go for another two years.
716
00:47:40,959 --> 00:47:46,042
And maybe because it wasn't
as necessary because the war
717
00:47:46,209 --> 00:47:47,792
was already very criticized.
718
00:47:47,959 --> 00:47:50,376
When you ended up
with a uniform and a rifle
719
00:47:50,542 --> 00:47:53,667
on a mission in Algeria,
didn't you feel you went against
720
00:47:53,834 --> 00:47:56,126
your disobedience from two years before?
721
00:47:56,292 --> 00:47:57,876
A little but...
722
00:47:58,042 --> 00:48:03,667
I was lucky enough to not
ask myself that question directly.
723
00:48:03,834 --> 00:48:07,917
How did you feel when you saw
or heard about
724
00:48:08,084 --> 00:48:12,209
young draftees, Communists
or young Christians
725
00:48:12,376 --> 00:48:15,626
fighting the war in a hard way?
726
00:48:19,626 --> 00:48:23,001
I thought they were wrong,
that they were brainwashed,
727
00:48:23,167 --> 00:48:26,459
because... Brainwashed
by the army's official propaganda.
728
00:48:26,626 --> 00:48:29,459
I saw one of my mates,
729
00:48:29,626 --> 00:48:32,126
in my regiment,
730
00:48:32,292 --> 00:48:36,792
who was in the Communist Youth
as a civilian,
731
00:48:36,959 --> 00:48:40,584
he was a father and a husband,
732
00:48:40,751 --> 00:48:44,417
and one day I caught him
torturing along with the captain.
733
00:48:44,584 --> 00:48:47,834
- It made me feel... I saw it.
- You saw him?
734
00:48:48,001 --> 00:48:52,667
I wasn't supposed to enter the room
where it happened,
735
00:48:52,834 --> 00:48:56,917
but then I was sent in
736
00:48:57,084 --> 00:49:00,417
to give a message to the captain,
and I saw what was happening.
737
00:49:00,584 --> 00:49:03,376
- What kind of torture?
- It was the Bathtub.
738
00:49:03,542 --> 00:49:07,084
And... I...
739
00:49:07,251 --> 00:49:09,334
I was devastated.
740
00:49:09,501 --> 00:49:14,292
If it had been a paratrooper,
I knew they did that,
741
00:49:14,459 --> 00:49:17,792
specialized units did that,
742
00:49:17,959 --> 00:49:20,917
but I didn't think a young draftee
743
00:49:22,251 --> 00:49:25,917
could do that, and I don't think
he was alone, there were others.
744
00:49:26,084 --> 00:49:30,042
- Did you talk to him after that?
- No. I didn't dare.
745
00:49:30,209 --> 00:49:34,042
I didn't dare blame him, because...
I don't know.
746
00:49:34,209 --> 00:49:37,251
How can you explain a young Communist
practicing torture?
747
00:49:37,417 --> 00:49:41,876
You know, we were 20 years old and...
748
00:49:44,459 --> 00:49:49,126
Uh... They were
749
00:49:49,292 --> 00:49:53,376
manipulated by the army,
and the official propaganda
750
00:49:53,542 --> 00:49:56,542
eventually worked on some
751
00:49:56,709 --> 00:49:57,959
and...
752
00:49:59,542 --> 00:50:02,626
carrying a weapon gives strength...
753
00:50:04,001 --> 00:50:09,084
to someone who usually doesn't have it.
754
00:50:09,251 --> 00:50:12,167
It validated him, perhaps.
755
00:50:14,751 --> 00:50:17,251
He felt like a man, perhaps.
756
00:50:17,417 --> 00:50:20,792
What did you think at that point
757
00:50:20,959 --> 00:50:25,626
about soldiers who deserted?
Like Noël Favrelière.
758
00:50:28,126 --> 00:50:30,292
At the time,
759
00:50:30,459 --> 00:50:34,251
I thought they were wrong.
Now, I think they were right.
760
00:50:37,126 --> 00:50:38,417
Why?
761
00:50:43,251 --> 00:50:46,251
I think I lacked courage
762
00:50:46,417 --> 00:50:49,876
and that I should have deserted.
763
00:50:50,042 --> 00:50:52,126
And defected to the FLN.
764
00:51:02,042 --> 00:51:04,459
During the last war,
765
00:51:04,626 --> 00:51:07,376
in the resistance, in Vercors,
we saw
766
00:51:07,542 --> 00:51:12,042
Germans who had deserted.
They were right.
767
00:51:12,209 --> 00:51:14,542
Even if they fought Germans.
768
00:51:19,084 --> 00:51:21,584
The soldiers of Algeria are talking to you.
769
00:51:21,751 --> 00:51:25,251
Tonight, let's listen to soldiers'
messages to their families
770
00:51:25,417 --> 00:51:29,001
from postal code 88106.
771
00:51:29,167 --> 00:51:31,959
Corporals Marcel Innocenti,
772
00:51:32,126 --> 00:51:35,376
Maurice Duhamel;
infantrymen Bernard Lessieurs,
773
00:51:35,542 --> 00:51:38,292
Bernard Minierlus, and although
774
00:51:38,459 --> 00:51:42,334
they are just in from Europe,
are happy to tell their parents
775
00:51:42,501 --> 00:51:45,167
that the warm welcome
from their brothers
776
00:51:45,334 --> 00:51:48,626
was able to lessen
the departure's regrets.
777
00:51:48,792 --> 00:51:54,084
Libois, Maurice: "My little woman,
kisses to you and my little girl.
778
00:51:54,251 --> 00:51:58,042
I hope I will soon be with you.
779
00:51:58,209 --> 00:52:00,334
Say hello to the family, Maurice."
780
00:52:11,751 --> 00:52:14,084
We had no Contact with the population.
781
00:52:14,251 --> 00:52:16,959
- You guys were isolated, right?
- Completely.
782
00:52:17,126 --> 00:52:21,834
The only contact we had with Europeans
was at the hospital.
783
00:52:22,001 --> 00:52:24,917
It admitted the French as well as the...
784
00:52:25,084 --> 00:52:27,876
- The Sainte-Eugénie hospital.
- Sainte-Eugénie.
785
00:52:28,042 --> 00:52:32,126
- He can talk about it.
- They admitted French
786
00:52:32,292 --> 00:52:34,292
and Arab patients wounded in combat.
787
00:52:34,459 --> 00:52:38,501
- And you were wounded...
- I...
788
00:52:38,667 --> 00:52:41,001
I took a...
789
00:52:41,167 --> 00:52:43,334
A rebel shot me point blank.
790
00:52:43,501 --> 00:52:46,042
I remember it well, there was a...
791
00:52:46,209 --> 00:52:50,084
There was a very thick bush,
you wanted to go through.
792
00:52:50,251 --> 00:52:55,209
We couldn't do it, so we sent Perrin,
the bulldozer. And you were wounded.
793
00:52:55,376 --> 00:52:58,167
Then they evacuated me
to Sainte-Eugénie,
794
00:52:58,334 --> 00:53:01,042
the hospital that had no security.
795
00:53:02,126 --> 00:53:04,501
There was a little hospital
between Tizi-Ouzou
796
00:53:04,667 --> 00:53:07,251
and Fort National,
a field hospital.
797
00:53:08,584 --> 00:53:11,709
It was run by sisters.
798
00:53:11,876 --> 00:53:13,459
Do you remember that hospital?
799
00:53:13,626 --> 00:53:16,834
- Vaguely.
- And the doctor was a European.
800
00:53:20,084 --> 00:53:22,501
Night was about to fall,
801
00:53:22,667 --> 00:53:25,417
so we stopped there for the night.
802
00:53:27,167 --> 00:53:30,334
But hey, they put me in a bed
803
00:53:30,501 --> 00:53:33,959
next to the thugs
that were aligned in front of me.
804
00:53:34,126 --> 00:53:38,376
They were full of holes.
One had a bullet... They were FLN.
805
00:53:38,542 --> 00:53:41,667
FLN, MNA, they're the same to me.
806
00:53:41,834 --> 00:53:45,584
One had a bullet in his cheek,
his head was like this,
807
00:53:45,751 --> 00:53:49,667
and the others had them in the gut.
And I was lying down,
808
00:53:49,834 --> 00:53:52,709
no watch at night,
and my chums next door.
809
00:53:54,667 --> 00:53:59,292
I laid low. Even knowing
they were wounded, I laid low.
810
00:53:59,459 --> 00:54:02,084
I spent the night awake.
811
00:54:02,251 --> 00:54:05,001
I had my gun next to me,
and I thought
812
00:54:05,167 --> 00:54:06,917
we'll see. I didn't sleep.
813
00:54:07,084 --> 00:54:09,501
You had to be brave.
814
00:54:09,667 --> 00:54:14,417
You had to go.
- Sisters ran the hospital,
815
00:54:14,584 --> 00:54:16,834
and I had my own room,
816
00:54:17,001 --> 00:54:21,834
and next door there was a dorm
with 26 Fellaghas.
817
00:54:22,001 --> 00:54:24,334
You thought, "That's it,
I'm a Fell prisoner"?
818
00:54:24,501 --> 00:54:30,042
I told the sister I wanted to go
to Tizi-Ouzou or...
819
00:54:30,209 --> 00:54:32,667
She just said, don't be afraid.
820
00:54:32,834 --> 00:54:35,751
- You were totally safe. Better than...
- I can tell you...
821
00:54:35,917 --> 00:54:40,667
It's true, I was very well taken care of
in that hospital.
822
00:54:40,834 --> 00:54:43,584
Robert Zanoni, Raymond Didier,
823
00:54:43,751 --> 00:54:47,626
René Perrin and Bernard Molroguier,
who are sharing memories,
824
00:54:47,792 --> 00:54:49,751
met over 30 years ago.
825
00:54:50,834 --> 00:54:52,751
They fought the war together,
826
00:54:52,917 --> 00:54:56,542
in the same regiment', the 6th BOA.
827
00:54:56,709 --> 00:55:00,584
A tough, violent, exhausting war.
828
00:55:00,751 --> 00:55:04,917
A fifth man is missing. Henri Girard.
829
00:55:05,084 --> 00:55:09,042
The image I keep is that
830
00:55:09,209 --> 00:55:12,084
of a kid's image of her older brother
831
00:55:12,251 --> 00:55:15,251
who was 20, I was 12 so...
832
00:55:15,417 --> 00:55:18,626
He was handsome,
833
00:55:18,792 --> 00:55:21,751
very agreeable, I adored him.
834
00:55:22,834 --> 00:55:26,542
A mason in Pont-de-Claix met Didier
before deploying to Algeria.
835
00:55:26,709 --> 00:55:30,167
And together, like Didier says,
they partied.
836
00:55:31,084 --> 00:55:33,251
On the peaks of Kabylia,
he was with Perrin,
837
00:55:33,417 --> 00:55:38,126
Zanoni and Molroguier,
nicknamed Mo! on the pictures he took.
838
00:55:38,292 --> 00:55:40,584
With them, he raised hell.
839
00:55:40,751 --> 00:55:44,042
With them, he suffered and trudged.
840
00:55:44,209 --> 00:55:47,334
He was awarded the Cross
of Military Valor and two citations,
841
00:55:47,501 --> 00:55:51,709
including one for saving a fellow soldier
wounded under enemy fire.
842
00:55:52,876 --> 00:55:56,126
Then, one day in January 1959...
843
00:55:56,292 --> 00:56:00,542
The entire company left for the ridges
to hold them.
844
00:56:01,626 --> 00:56:05,709
And Girard, with the group,
845
00:56:07,209 --> 00:56:12,001
we were in position, we were scouts
to clear the ground in front.
846
00:56:13,376 --> 00:56:16,959
We were half an hour away
from the company,
847
00:56:17,126 --> 00:56:18,459
from the section even.
848
00:56:19,209 --> 00:56:22,084
Lieutenant Guignard led us.
849
00:56:22,251 --> 00:56:26,001
- He was from Lyon.
- He was a draftee.
850
00:56:28,542 --> 00:56:33,126
On a side note, this lieutenant spent
the night in the barbed wire fence because
851
00:56:33,292 --> 00:56:35,792
he wanted us to shave every morning.
852
00:56:35,959 --> 00:56:38,626
We weren't used to it.
853
00:56:38,792 --> 00:56:42,001
- He wanted to discipline us.
- Discipline.
854
00:56:42,167 --> 00:56:46,584
Coming out from the mess hall,
we wanted to take him.
855
00:56:46,751 --> 00:56:49,584
We took him, tied him up
and put him on the barb wire.
856
00:56:49,751 --> 00:56:53,792
We told the guard not to shoot there
857
00:56:53,959 --> 00:56:57,126
because Guignard couldn't
get out from the barbwire.
858
00:56:58,917 --> 00:57:01,626
We went to get him
in the middle of the night.
859
00:57:03,334 --> 00:57:05,542
We got nothing.
860
00:57:06,792 --> 00:57:08,876
Well, anyway.
861
00:57:09,042 --> 00:57:13,542
And now we were positioned in front,
half an hour from the section.
862
00:57:15,126 --> 00:57:18,459
We are ordered to leave,
863
00:57:18,626 --> 00:57:21,626
to climb the peak to watch.
864
00:57:21,792 --> 00:57:24,751
I tell Girard, Henri,
865
00:57:24,917 --> 00:57:28,876
"We're going to sweat,
I'm taking my jacket off."
866
00:57:29,042 --> 00:57:32,751
Then suddenly there was an explosion,
I thought we were being attacked.
867
00:57:33,917 --> 00:57:36,334
I took off my jacket.
868
00:57:36,501 --> 00:57:39,251
In that moment,
you take your weapon and fire.
869
00:57:39,417 --> 00:57:41,209
Anywhere, but you fire.
870
00:57:43,126 --> 00:57:47,501
Nothing, no bullet, no detonation.
It was weird.
871
00:57:49,042 --> 00:57:52,251
I turn around and Girard was...
872
00:57:52,417 --> 00:57:54,167
- Yeah.
- He was dead.
873
00:57:55,667 --> 00:57:59,251
And Jocelin... I didn't see anyone.
874
00:57:59,417 --> 00:58:02,751
I started calling, nobody answered.
875
00:58:02,917 --> 00:58:07,542
I thought, "That's not an attack,
something's going on."
876
00:58:07,709 --> 00:58:12,209
I look behind the ridge to see
if someone was there. No one.
877
00:58:12,376 --> 00:58:16,584
The lieutenant was screaming
his lungs out.
878
00:58:16,751 --> 00:58:19,209
Barbereau, who was behind...
879
00:58:19,376 --> 00:58:22,126
There were two rocks,
Barbereau was here.
880
00:58:22,292 --> 00:58:24,876
Barbereau was blind.
881
00:58:25,042 --> 00:58:28,334
Perez's ears were bleeding, half dead.
882
00:58:28,501 --> 00:58:32,459
They were all wounded, except me.
883
00:58:32,626 --> 00:58:37,751
Girard was half a yard away from me,
no more, we were together.
884
00:58:39,334 --> 00:58:42,584
Right away I ran to him,
885
00:58:42,751 --> 00:58:47,084
turned him around and I saw that
one of his grenades had exploded.
886
00:58:47,251 --> 00:58:52,459
The pin accidentally pulled.
I was left alone with five or six wounded.
887
00:58:53,542 --> 00:58:55,667
Barbereau was behind a rock,
888
00:58:55,834 --> 00:58:59,334
he was hit in the back of the neck.
889
00:58:59,501 --> 00:59:02,626
Here. Made him blind.
890
00:59:02,792 --> 00:59:05,084
- He's been blind since?
- No, he...
891
00:59:05,251 --> 00:59:08,251
- He lost his sight temporarily.
- Temporarily?
892
00:59:08,417 --> 00:59:10,876
He wasn't very cheerful to begin with.
893
00:59:11,042 --> 00:59:13,084
They were all quite damaged.
894
00:59:13,251 --> 00:59:16,209
Actually one died after that,
two weeks later.
895
00:59:16,376 --> 00:59:19,709
- He died.
- Bézière bled through his ears.
896
00:59:21,042 --> 00:59:24,042
- That's bad.
- Not a good sign.
897
00:59:24,209 --> 00:59:26,542
Then the others came in.
898
00:59:27,917 --> 00:59:31,876
Everyone was on the peak,
the chopper couldn't come.
899
00:59:33,376 --> 00:59:36,292
The wounded were carried down
on people's backs
900
00:59:36,459 --> 00:59:39,667
500 meters down.
It was nearly vertical but not very far.
901
00:59:39,834 --> 00:59:42,251
I carried three on my back myself.
902
00:59:43,126 --> 00:59:45,042
We were 20 years old, we were in shape.
903
00:59:45,209 --> 00:59:50,167
The news came to us
one day during lunch.
904
00:59:50,334 --> 00:59:55,459
The mayor came with a deputy
while we were eating.
905
00:59:56,542 --> 01:00:00,126
He had just received a wire.
906
01:00:01,834 --> 01:00:04,626
It was very, very hard.
907
01:00:04,792 --> 01:00:07,709
I had a very violent reaction.
908
01:00:14,959 --> 01:00:17,667
It was unbearable actually.
909
01:00:17,834 --> 01:00:20,917
We couldn't believe it.
It's not something you can accept
910
01:00:21,084 --> 01:00:24,126
in the moment. It was inacceptable.
911
01:00:25,626 --> 01:00:27,084
I...
912
01:00:29,626 --> 01:00:33,584
I suffered... I experienced such pain.
913
01:00:33,751 --> 01:00:39,459
I didn't know that it existed,
that you could hurt like that...
914
01:00:42,751 --> 01:00:45,501
In the moment, it represented
915
01:00:45,667 --> 01:00:50,209
such devastation that
I still feel pain talking about it now.
916
01:00:51,751 --> 01:00:53,376
It's...
917
01:00:56,126 --> 01:00:58,292
I was revolted.
918
01:00:58,459 --> 01:01:04,209
I was a teenager,
times that were already hard.
919
01:01:06,542 --> 01:01:08,376
It upended my life.
920
01:01:08,542 --> 01:01:12,084
I went to his funeral...
921
01:01:12,251 --> 01:01:13,917
with...
922
01:01:15,959 --> 01:01:20,334
Gilbert Flandin, a young man.
923
01:01:20,501 --> 01:01:24,167
And Jean Sescatto from La Mute.
924
01:01:24,334 --> 01:01:27,001
There was a huge crowd.
925
01:01:27,167 --> 01:01:31,209
There was a group from the 6th BCA.
926
01:01:31,376 --> 01:01:34,376
They came to serve as pallbearers.
927
01:01:34,542 --> 01:01:36,626
There were many people.
928
01:01:38,209 --> 01:01:42,209
We lived almost two years together.
929
01:01:42,376 --> 01:01:45,834
Yes, the military brought us together.
930
01:01:50,417 --> 01:01:53,709
The peace at the cemetery
where Henri Girard rests today
931
01:01:53,876 --> 01:01:58,251
is only disturbed by the din
of the Rhône-Poulenc factory nearby.
932
01:02:00,501 --> 01:02:04,709
Like him, 8,000 draftees accidentally
died in Algeria.
933
01:02:04,876 --> 01:02:08,417
Exploding grenades, jammed rifles,
land mines,
934
01:02:08,584 --> 01:02:11,876
stray bullets, overturned trucks.
935
01:02:12,042 --> 01:02:15,167
Eight thousand dead,
a third of the total casualties.
936
01:02:16,376 --> 01:02:19,209
The Pont-de-Claix municipality
in Grenoble's outskirts,
937
01:02:19,376 --> 01:02:22,084
named a park after Henri Girard.
938
01:02:23,209 --> 01:02:27,292
The adjacent street's plaque
commemorates the ceasefire in Algeria,
939
01:02:27,459 --> 01:02:30,334
March 19th, 1962.
940
01:02:30,501 --> 01:02:35,251
The unintentional irony?
Unfortunate coincidence? It is a dead end.
941
01:02:37,084 --> 01:02:42,167
On the back of this picture, his last,
taken five days before he died,
942
01:02:42,334 --> 01:02:47,501
Henri Girard wrote:
"Oh yes, it's a beautiful country. ”
943
01:02:49,376 --> 01:02:54,042
- You were like the leader of the pack.
- Exactly.
944
01:02:54,209 --> 01:02:59,667
I was the leader of the pack,
of the village, of everything.
945
01:02:59,834 --> 01:03:04,709
I created a Harka, from A to Z,
I trained people, taught them.
946
01:03:04,876 --> 01:03:08,459
I was helped tremendously
947
01:03:08,626 --> 01:03:14,917
by an old Algerian man, who'd done
the Campaign of Monte Cassino.
948
01:03:15,084 --> 01:03:20,126
He was a watchman at a soap factory.
When he learned his country was ablaze,
949
01:03:20,292 --> 01:03:25,126
especially in the Aurès mountains, he put
himself at the French Army's disposal.
950
01:03:25,292 --> 01:03:32,251
You have to know that the people
in the Aurès are excessively simple.
951
01:03:32,417 --> 01:03:35,334
Meaning that, for them,
952
01:03:35,501 --> 01:03:40,876
for instance, the first principle I learned
was to never take defectors.
953
01:03:41,042 --> 01:03:46,751
And why is that? Someone
who betrayed once, can do it twice.
954
01:03:46,917 --> 01:03:52,292
Sometimes we visited "transit centers,"
meaning prisons,
955
01:03:52,459 --> 01:03:55,334
and we told them simply,
956
01:03:55,501 --> 01:04:00,834
"Would you rather stay in prison
or fight with us?
957
01:04:01,001 --> 01:04:06,292
You'll be clothed and paid."
958
01:04:06,459 --> 01:04:09,792
- Why were they in prison?
- They were FLN.
959
01:04:09,959 --> 01:04:14,001
- Did you test them?
- We did.
960
01:04:14,167 --> 01:04:17,334
Here again, we tried...
961
01:04:17,501 --> 01:04:21,001
Maybe they had to renounce
their religion,
962
01:04:21,167 --> 01:04:24,792
since they were simple people,
it could work,
963
01:04:24,959 --> 01:04:29,209
concretely that meant
making them drink alcohol.
964
01:04:29,376 --> 01:04:33,001
When I say alcohol,
I'm talking about a can of beer.
965
01:04:34,834 --> 01:04:40,167
Then we took these people
966
01:04:40,334 --> 01:04:45,709
from villages,
we rarely took single men.
967
01:04:45,876 --> 01:04:49,084
Always married with children.
968
01:04:49,251 --> 01:04:56,167
- And I'll admit it worked very well since...
- You would watch the family?
969
01:04:56,334 --> 01:05:00,667
Not so much,
the family was not held hostage.
970
01:05:00,834 --> 01:05:04,209
It was important to realize that if the man
971
01:05:04,376 --> 01:05:08,501
wanted to desert and steal weapons,
972
01:05:08,667 --> 01:05:12,292
he would have to abandon his family.
973
01:05:12,459 --> 01:05:16,459
And he had only one fear,
that we would
974
01:05:16,626 --> 01:05:19,334
retaliate on his family,
which we would never have done.
975
01:05:19,501 --> 01:05:24,084
In the beginning,
I only had 30 people in the field,
976
01:05:24,251 --> 01:05:26,834
it wasn't much.
977
01:05:27,001 --> 01:05:32,042
Poorly armed, the first weapons we had
when we set up Harkas
978
01:05:32,209 --> 01:05:38,959
were Lebels 1917 with ammunition
from the same era.
979
01:05:39,126 --> 01:05:45,376
I was supposed to disarm the Harka
every night and put the rifles away.
980
01:05:45,542 --> 01:05:49,917
I never did that.
981
01:05:50,084 --> 01:05:54,501
I trusted them and I don't see
how I could have trusted them
982
01:05:54,667 --> 01:06:01,334
if I'd shown... They wouldn't have
understood if I'd taken their weapons.
983
01:06:01,501 --> 01:06:02,876
I was breaking the rules.
984
01:06:03,042 --> 01:06:05,959
But I never had one deserter,
985
01:06:06,126 --> 01:06:09,417
I never had to complain, on the contrary.
986
01:06:09,584 --> 01:06:11,459
My life's great regret
987
01:06:11,626 --> 01:06:14,876
is to have involved them
in that adventure, meaning...
988
01:06:15,042 --> 01:06:20,042
I really believed in it,
because as a young lieutenant, I was told,
989
01:06:20,209 --> 01:06:24,334
"France has to be in Algeria."
990
01:06:24,501 --> 01:06:28,209
We relayed the message.
They believed in it.
991
01:06:30,709 --> 01:06:37,209
These people knew how to see everything.
They observed nature, were close to it,
992
01:06:37,376 --> 01:06:43,626
a little like our old farmers.
They easily found hiding places.
993
01:06:43,792 --> 01:06:47,792
I witnessed the discovery of an armory
by a group of Harkis.
994
01:06:47,959 --> 01:06:52,667
A paratrooper unit had searched
the area for a day, didn't find anything.
995
01:06:52,834 --> 01:06:58,751
An intelligence officer tells me to try
with my Harkis
996
01:06:58,917 --> 01:07:02,001
and I admit that,
while our colleagues
997
01:07:02,167 --> 01:07:06,084
taunted us,
998
01:07:06,251 --> 01:07:08,459
we started searching.
999
01:07:08,626 --> 01:07:13,167
At some point, a Harki came to me
and said, "I found it, lieutenant."
1000
01:07:13,334 --> 01:07:16,542
He showed me a tree, an oak tree.
1001
01:07:16,709 --> 01:07:22,959
There was a branch five feet
from the ground, but it had no leaves.
1002
01:07:23,126 --> 01:07:28,292
It was in a forbidden zone,
no population was supposed to be there.
1003
01:07:28,459 --> 01:07:31,709
He tells me, "See this branch?
1004
01:07:31,876 --> 01:07:38,876
There's no leaves, a mule ate them,
meaning a heavy load was brought here."
1005
01:07:39,042 --> 01:07:42,876
And he went around the tree,
and after a while he said, "I found it."
1006
01:07:43,042 --> 01:07:45,876
That's the earth
from the bottom, not the top."
1007
01:07:46,042 --> 01:07:50,584
Indeed,
200-liter kegs of oil were buried there,
1008
01:07:50,751 --> 01:07:57,167
with ammunitions, weapons
hidden as well.
1009
01:07:57,334 --> 01:08:02,417
When one of your men did
something wrong, what did you do?
1010
01:08:02,584 --> 01:08:05,834
Every wrongdoing was punished by...
1011
01:08:08,584 --> 01:08:11,917
lashes with a whip.
1012
01:08:12,084 --> 01:08:17,167
I didn't do it myself.
1013
01:08:17,334 --> 01:08:24,001
First, I was not supposed to do it.
I just ordered the punishment, that's it.
1014
01:08:24,167 --> 01:08:27,459
I couldn't make mistakes.
1015
01:08:27,626 --> 01:08:31,667
I couldn't punish someone
who didn't do anything wrong.
1016
01:08:31,834 --> 01:08:36,542
What kind of thing did you punish
with lashes?
1017
01:08:36,709 --> 01:08:39,501
Stealing. The simplest things.
1018
01:08:40,792 --> 01:08:44,001
All wrongdoings were punished.
1019
01:08:44,167 --> 01:08:48,876
When one of your men committed
a crime
1020
01:08:49,042 --> 01:08:52,251
- on the population...
- That never happened,
1021
01:08:52,417 --> 01:08:57,334
but the punishment could have been...
1022
01:08:59,376 --> 01:09:03,584
It could have been more...
Bring that person...
1023
01:09:03,751 --> 01:09:06,959
If the crime was against civilians,
1024
01:09:07,126 --> 01:09:11,001
even if they're just wounded,
1025
01:09:11,167 --> 01:09:15,042
the punishment could have very strong,
to the extreme.
1026
01:09:15,209 --> 01:09:19,167
- The death penalty? Without a trial.
- Exactly. Exactly.
1027
01:09:19,334 --> 01:09:24,167
Those who were punished on my orders,
never resented me.
1028
01:09:24,334 --> 01:09:28,376
I lived alone with them,
and they were armed to the teeth.
1029
01:09:28,542 --> 01:09:32,876
At any moment of the day,
they could have eliminated me.
1030
01:09:37,584 --> 01:09:42,876
Combat in the Aurès was very secluded,
given the nature of the terrain.
1031
01:09:43,042 --> 01:09:47,292
Skirmishes happened
within 100 and 150 yard minimum.
1032
01:09:47,459 --> 01:09:51,751
Except at night, of course,
they would use hunting rifles,
1033
01:09:51,917 --> 01:09:55,751
which are, in my opinion,
the most formidable weapon invented.
1034
01:09:55,917 --> 01:09:59,626
Was there a geographic distribution
between you and them?
1035
01:10:00,751 --> 01:10:03,709
The FLN would circle around us
using the ridges.
1036
01:10:03,876 --> 01:10:08,834
Everyone lived on their own side.
We walked at night and slept in the day.
1037
01:10:09,001 --> 01:10:10,459
Slept and watched.
1038
01:10:10,626 --> 01:10:13,459
- You were doing the same thing.
- Exactly.
1039
01:10:13,626 --> 01:10:20,584
I respect the ALN fighters,
I think I never...
1040
01:10:20,751 --> 01:10:25,042
I've treated their wounded.
1041
01:10:26,167 --> 01:10:30,417
I've always treated them like men.
But in villages,
1042
01:10:30,584 --> 01:10:33,751
I had to fight
against political administrations,
1043
01:10:33,917 --> 01:10:37,376
which represented
1044
01:10:37,542 --> 01:10:42,251
what I'd call the dregs of every war.
1045
01:10:42,417 --> 01:10:48,709
To feed themselves,
the FLN had to take
1046
01:10:48,876 --> 01:10:52,792
supplies from villages.
1047
01:10:54,167 --> 01:10:55,667
They ruled by terror.
1048
01:10:55,834 --> 01:10:58,959
You've witnessed
1049
01:10:59,126 --> 01:11:04,584
the method used by the FLN
to control the population.
1050
01:11:04,751 --> 01:11:10,084
Indeed. I saw fatalities,
wounded civilians,
1051
01:11:10,251 --> 01:11:13,126
even mutilated ones,
1052
01:11:13,292 --> 01:11:16,584
to pressure them.
1053
01:11:16,751 --> 01:11:22,167
Those were methods I didn't appreciate,
1054
01:11:22,334 --> 01:11:24,001
a human being can't appreciate.
1055
01:11:24,167 --> 01:11:29,459
You make a distinction
between fighter and political figure.
1056
01:11:29,626 --> 01:11:33,459
Always. And I still do it.
Fighters are people
1057
01:11:33,626 --> 01:11:39,001
who risk sacrificing
1058
01:11:39,167 --> 01:11:42,959
the most precious thing they have,
meaning their lives,
1059
01:11:43,126 --> 01:11:46,626
while politicians never sacrifice anything.
1060
01:11:46,792 --> 01:11:51,751
- They were murderers and torturers?
- Those I've met were.
1061
01:11:51,917 --> 01:11:56,376
Intelligence for a unit like ours
consisted of...
1062
01:11:57,834 --> 01:12:03,292
collecting all intelligence, gathering it,
1063
01:12:03,459 --> 01:12:06,626
to get an exact idea
1064
01:12:06,792 --> 01:12:11,917
of where camps were,
of troop movement
1065
01:12:12,084 --> 01:12:15,292
and size, who commanded them,
1066
01:12:15,459 --> 01:12:20,334
does he have family in a village,
does he visit them, does he have a wife,
1067
01:12:20,501 --> 01:12:22,667
children, does he visit them at night
1068
01:12:22,834 --> 01:12:27,042
to set up his operations?
1069
01:12:27,209 --> 01:12:31,876
- You achieved perfect knowledge?
- I think so.
1070
01:12:32,042 --> 01:12:37,501
I perfectly knew the wife
of a FLN sub-lieutenant
1071
01:12:37,667 --> 01:12:40,167
who was in a village.
1072
01:12:40,334 --> 01:12:42,834
And on a side note,
1073
01:12:43,001 --> 01:12:48,084
about the French Army's so-called
atrocities, we never touched his wife
1074
01:12:48,251 --> 01:12:52,209
nor his kids, although her husband
was a sub-lieutenant.
1075
01:12:52,376 --> 01:12:56,001
You're always on the fence
when we talk about torture, atrocities.
1076
01:12:56,167 --> 01:13:01,042
I mean, I heard so much about torture,
I heard so much
1077
01:13:01,209 --> 01:13:04,501
about atrocities from people
who obviously
1078
01:13:04,667 --> 01:13:09,042
didn't go through it,
never faced the problem,
1079
01:13:09,209 --> 01:13:14,167
so I'm on the fence about it.
1080
01:13:14,334 --> 01:13:19,751
It's easy to talk about something
when you were not involved.
1081
01:13:19,917 --> 01:13:24,626
It's very hard to talk about it.
I'd like to also add
1082
01:13:24,792 --> 01:13:28,292
that I never saw any torture
1083
01:13:28,459 --> 01:13:34,167
by French Army officers
for no valid reason.
1084
01:13:34,334 --> 01:13:41,292
Once I had a gentleman who had
documents,
1085
01:13:41,459 --> 01:13:44,709
which had the name of...
1086
01:13:47,459 --> 01:13:53,167
of people who were
in a company of draftees.
1087
01:13:54,292 --> 01:13:59,626
He also had the blueprints of a post
I knew very well
1088
01:13:59,792 --> 01:14:03,084
because I had led a section there.
1089
01:14:07,167 --> 01:14:12,126
I reported to my superior,
who told me
1090
01:14:13,417 --> 01:14:15,251
we had to know more.
1091
01:14:15,417 --> 01:14:18,834
Why did he have the map
of a draftee's post?
1092
01:14:19,001 --> 01:14:22,792
Why was there three names?
1093
01:14:25,417 --> 01:14:31,376
One sub-officers' and two draftees'.
1094
01:14:31,542 --> 01:14:33,917
Then, uh...
1095
01:14:34,084 --> 01:14:40,334
Well, I'll say right away that we didn't
torture him to death, I've never seen that.
1096
01:14:40,501 --> 01:14:46,834
- What did you do to him?
- Well, a few slaps.
1097
01:14:47,001 --> 01:14:52,417
- Even water on his face.
- Electricity?
1098
01:14:52,584 --> 01:14:56,334
Electricity, but 12-volt, not too bad.
1099
01:14:56,501 --> 01:14:59,709
But no electricity on his genitals,
1100
01:14:59,876 --> 01:15:03,709
as it was described in many books.
1101
01:15:05,417 --> 01:15:10,709
So we could know why.
It turns out that when the man talked,
1102
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:18,876
that company's station was surrounded
with 150 draftees inside,
1103
01:15:19,042 --> 01:15:21,459
they were completely surrounded
by the FLN,
1104
01:15:21,626 --> 01:15:25,792
and the three names on the papers
1105
01:15:25,959 --> 01:15:31,042
were names of traitors.
1106
01:15:31,209 --> 01:15:34,542
At the said time,
the post was to be taken,
1107
01:15:35,542 --> 01:15:38,584
and all the draftees were to be killed.
1108
01:15:40,334 --> 01:15:42,876
I think it was worth...
1109
01:15:43,042 --> 01:15:46,959
Sometimes you wonder,
you think it's awful,
1110
01:15:47,126 --> 01:15:50,251
this and that,
but I think at that point,
1111
01:15:50,417 --> 01:15:52,417
the lives of 150 people depended on it.
1112
01:15:53,501 --> 01:15:56,959
Isn't it humiliating to humiliate a man?
1113
01:15:58,584 --> 01:16:01,084
Now it is, yes,
1114
01:16:01,251 --> 01:16:06,001
but going back to what I said earlier
about politicians,
1115
01:16:06,167 --> 01:16:09,376
they are the ones who make the wars.
1116
01:16:09,542 --> 01:16:12,251
If you don't want atrocities,
don't do wars.
1117
01:16:12,417 --> 01:16:14,292
Our activities were activities
1118
01:16:14,459 --> 01:16:18,792
where we brought something.
We improved posts.
1119
01:16:18,959 --> 01:16:21,626
We put civilians to work, who were paid.
1120
01:16:21,792 --> 01:16:26,251
They really waited every morning,
and we had to make a choice
1121
01:16:26,417 --> 01:16:30,167
because there were many of them,
and I could only take 50, no more.
1122
01:16:30,334 --> 01:16:32,667
Maybe 200 guys came.
1123
01:16:32,834 --> 01:16:36,042
But the thing was that you built bastions,
1124
01:16:36,209 --> 01:16:39,667
you built blockhouses,
an electric line with landmines.
1125
01:16:39,834 --> 01:16:43,667
Not always.
The use that I mentioned earlier
1126
01:16:43,834 --> 01:16:47,334
is that we took people to build a road,
that's peaceful.
1127
01:16:47,501 --> 01:16:52,251
It was something we also had
with Pierre, as engineers,
1128
01:16:52,417 --> 01:16:57,334
we constructed bridges,
helped during floods.
1129
01:16:57,501 --> 01:16:59,626
This is a post reinforcement,
1130
01:16:59,792 --> 01:17:04,626
and we had Muslim workers
from the area who came to work.
1131
01:17:04,792 --> 01:17:09,042
And we paid these civilians weekly.
1132
01:17:09,209 --> 01:17:13,834
The funny thing was that, speaking Arabic
and having contacts in the population,
1133
01:17:14,001 --> 01:17:19,292
I'd figure out who the FLN representative
was in the camp,
1134
01:17:19,459 --> 01:17:23,209
And during tea in the tent
1135
01:17:23,376 --> 01:17:27,584
-he said that half the workdays you gave
-Right.
1136
01:17:27,751 --> 01:17:29,584
Were taken by the ALN.
1137
01:17:29,751 --> 01:17:33,626
This is Sub-Lieutenant Achin
in front of my post.
1138
01:17:33,792 --> 01:17:38,417
You can see the trail
1139
01:17:38,584 --> 01:17:43,042
we used to leave the post,
to leave the area,
1140
01:17:43,209 --> 01:17:46,584
and you see the camp.
1141
01:17:46,751 --> 01:17:50,584
Our camp was called Sidi Djillali,
it was a place...
1142
01:17:52,126 --> 01:17:53,542
It was a holy place.
1143
01:17:53,709 --> 01:17:57,876
It is extraordinary to think,
when you know the Arab world a bit,
1144
01:17:58,042 --> 01:18:04,001
that we occupied a holy place, where
pilgrimages were supposed to take place.
1145
01:18:04,167 --> 01:18:09,542
We banned them. For the Arab world,
it was an extraordinary attack.
1146
01:18:09,709 --> 01:18:13,209
Well, it also was the location of a spring,
it's often both.
1147
01:18:13,376 --> 01:18:18,417
And I would pour bleach in this spring,
1148
01:18:18,584 --> 01:18:22,667
because the best way to disinfect
is one drop of bleach per liter.
1149
01:18:22,834 --> 01:18:24,501
I put in two of course.
1150
01:18:24,667 --> 01:18:28,667
And while I was there,
I never had hepatitis
1151
01:18:28,834 --> 01:18:32,042
or dysentery.
It was my great pride.
1152
01:18:32,209 --> 01:18:35,501
But nobody would drink water
1153
01:18:35,667 --> 01:18:40,417
because it was just disgusting.
Everyone drank beer.
1154
01:18:41,917 --> 01:18:47,667
This is one of my little patients.
We were by the camp.
1155
01:18:47,834 --> 01:18:52,751
They had a perimeter to walk
around the camp during the day.
1156
01:18:52,917 --> 01:18:54,834
At night it was forbidden, of course.
1157
01:18:55,001 --> 01:19:00,626
In Algeria, we grouped people
in certain zones, hundreds of thousands.
1158
01:19:00,792 --> 01:19:06,334
And these people were called
the Outed Nehar,
1159
01:19:06,501 --> 01:19:11,834
a nomadic tribe we forced to settle down.
We surrounded them with barb wire,
1160
01:19:12,001 --> 01:19:14,751
in a forbidden zone,
1161
01:19:14,917 --> 01:19:21,876
which meant that night and day, we could
shoot anyone moving outside the camp.
1162
01:19:22,042 --> 01:19:25,376
They were there
without any possibility to work,
1163
01:19:25,542 --> 01:19:27,667
engineering used them a bit,
1164
01:19:27,834 --> 01:19:30,709
because we built roads
and blockhouses on the border.
1165
01:19:30,876 --> 01:19:34,876
Many died,
because being gathered like that,
1166
01:19:35,042 --> 01:19:39,876
even with sanitary aid
that I tried to improve,
1167
01:19:40,042 --> 01:19:45,709
it was insufficient.
Child mortality was a disaster.
1168
01:19:45,876 --> 01:19:51,001
Especially childbirth for women
and babies.
1169
01:19:51,167 --> 01:19:54,459
Both died at a huge rate,
almost medieval in proportion.
1170
01:19:54,626 --> 01:20:01,209
They refused my requests for civilian
evacuations. I only got military ones.
1171
01:20:01,376 --> 01:20:07,292
That's awful, because these people
had to stay on site and died on site.
1172
01:20:07,459 --> 01:20:14,209
A child had toxicosis, typical dehydration
for gastro-intestinal illness.
1173
01:20:14,376 --> 01:20:16,834
The child was over one year old,
1174
01:20:17,001 --> 01:20:23,292
he had acute dehydration.
They refused my evacuation request,
1175
01:20:23,459 --> 01:20:26,876
but I did the evacuation
in a military ambulance
1176
01:20:27,042 --> 01:20:32,126
on purpose, without protection,
against my captain's orders,
1177
01:20:32,292 --> 01:20:37,126
who had promised to arrest me,
but I left anyway.
1178
01:20:37,292 --> 01:20:42,501
I was also supported by one military nurse
1179
01:20:42,667 --> 01:20:47,001
who came with me, and accepted
to be punished upon return.
1180
01:20:47,167 --> 01:20:52,209
And we did this evacuation,
it was really long.
1181
01:20:52,376 --> 01:20:55,251
And the child died on arrival.
1182
01:21:03,001 --> 01:21:06,292
And I was born in Grenoble,
not in Italy.
1183
01:21:06,459 --> 01:21:10,084
My parents naturalized me at birth.
1184
01:21:10,251 --> 01:21:13,959
They were both illiterate.
1185
01:21:14,126 --> 01:21:19,501
They arrived in Grenoble
like all immigrants, even today.
1186
01:21:19,667 --> 01:21:23,584
They had to work,
manage on their own.
1187
01:21:23,751 --> 01:21:29,917
Then they had me, and I was
this immigrant couple's only child.
1188
01:21:30,084 --> 01:21:36,542
I was raised in poverty, experienced it.
My childhood was marked by poverty.
1189
01:21:37,542 --> 01:21:39,126
What did you parents do?
1190
01:21:39,292 --> 01:21:44,292
Both my parents worked in a factory
1191
01:21:44,459 --> 01:21:50,542
in Grenoble. It no longer exists,
but it manufactured bleach.
1192
01:21:50,709 --> 01:21:54,584
The bleach was called Neva, anyway.
1193
01:21:54,751 --> 01:22:00,709
They were both workers in that factory,
1194
01:22:02,084 --> 01:22:07,126
and I lost my father to an accident
in the factory.
1195
01:22:07,292 --> 01:22:09,251
We never knew if he suddenly felt ill,
1196
01:22:09,417 --> 01:22:14,376
if he was asphyxiated by the gas,
because there was gas as well.
1197
01:22:14,542 --> 01:22:20,292
In any case, as he stepped over to get
to the other side, he fell in the bleach.
1198
01:22:20,459 --> 01:22:26,792
So he died from burns, drowning,
everything from that bleach tank.
1199
01:22:26,959 --> 01:22:28,876
I lost my father when I was five.
1200
01:22:29,042 --> 01:22:35,084
For me, leaving for Algeria was unfair,
1201
01:22:35,251 --> 01:22:37,167
profoundly unfair...
1202
01:22:38,709 --> 01:22:41,126
Let's say that,
1203
01:22:41,292 --> 01:22:45,959
when you're 20,
when you're a little bit of a bad boy,
1204
01:22:46,126 --> 01:22:52,209
because I was,
I lived in a neighborhood that...
1205
01:22:52,376 --> 01:22:54,959
At the time it worked that way.
1206
01:22:55,126 --> 01:22:59,126
I wasn't a thief or a gangster,
but I was a bad boy in the neighborhood.
1207
01:22:59,292 --> 01:23:02,542
- I was rowdy... A rebel, yes.
- A rebel.
1208
01:23:02,709 --> 01:23:07,334
So I experience it like a tragedy.
1209
01:23:07,501 --> 01:23:11,376
But the real tragedy was for my mother,
1210
01:23:11,542 --> 01:23:14,834
because she ended up all alone.
1211
01:23:15,001 --> 01:23:17,626
And she experienced it as a tragedy.
1212
01:23:17,792 --> 01:23:21,667
Somebody who can't read or write,
who doesn't follow anything,
1213
01:23:21,834 --> 01:23:25,209
who understood nothing about politics,
I didn't either,
1214
01:23:25,376 --> 01:23:28,376
no support, no family,
1215
01:23:28,542 --> 01:23:31,626
nobody to go to one night
1216
01:23:31,792 --> 01:23:36,126
to ask if you can spend the night.
1217
01:23:36,292 --> 01:23:41,167
- It was a big tragedy.
- You knew what you were doing there?
1218
01:23:41,334 --> 01:23:45,126
Yes, I did.
1219
01:23:45,292 --> 01:23:49,751
During basic training colleagues told me,
1220
01:23:49,917 --> 01:23:53,751
"If you become an officer,
you'll make money,"
1221
01:23:53,917 --> 01:23:57,292
and we needed money.
We didn't have any.
1222
01:23:57,459 --> 01:24:02,167
We lived on credit everywhere,
at the baker's, the grocer's, everywhere.
1223
01:24:02,334 --> 01:24:06,542
I was told that if I became an officer
after basic training,
1224
01:24:06,709 --> 01:24:08,501
I could make some money.
1225
01:24:08,667 --> 01:24:10,876
- So I left...
- Corporal.
1226
01:24:11,042 --> 01:24:15,251
As a corporal. But in any case,
1227
01:24:15,417 --> 01:24:19,459
a corporal was considered a sub-officer,
1228
01:24:19,626 --> 01:24:25,584
so I had a sort of subordinate
officer status.
1229
01:24:25,751 --> 01:24:29,834
I had a sub-officer's salary,
1230
01:24:30,001 --> 01:24:35,876
the privileges of a sub-officer,
meaning that I wasn't in a dorm,
1231
01:24:36,042 --> 01:24:39,876
I'd share a room with a mate.
1232
01:24:40,042 --> 01:24:43,792
So I had privileges,
and also the privilege to make money.
1233
01:24:43,959 --> 01:24:49,334
The money I was able to earn
as a sub-officer
1234
01:24:49,501 --> 01:24:54,167
and as a volunteer for various things,
I sent back to France.
1235
01:24:54,959 --> 01:24:59,751
As a sub-officer, what was
your relationship with your superiors?
1236
01:25:01,751 --> 01:25:05,292
- With officers?
- Let's say that...
1237
01:25:07,501 --> 01:25:13,709
as an immigrant sub-officer,
1238
01:25:13,876 --> 01:25:19,876
it turns out that, at one point,
I was the only one
1239
01:25:20,042 --> 01:25:23,209
to have an Italian sounding name.
1240
01:25:23,376 --> 01:25:29,126
That's how it was,
maybe there were others after that.
1241
01:25:29,292 --> 01:25:32,959
And during a meal
1242
01:25:33,126 --> 01:25:39,084
in the officers' mess hall,
where there were officers and the captain,
1243
01:25:39,251 --> 01:25:44,792
the lieutenant, one ribbon, two ribbons,
people whose job it was.
1244
01:25:44,959 --> 01:25:47,626
And at the end of the table
1245
01:25:47,792 --> 01:25:51,626
sat a draftee, a sub-officer,
but a corporal.
1246
01:25:52,959 --> 01:25:55,334
- They put you at the end of the table.
- I was at the end.
1247
01:25:55,501 --> 01:25:56,876
It was funny at the table,
1248
01:25:57,042 --> 01:25:59,876
there was the captain
and the corporal at the other end.
1249
01:26:00,042 --> 01:26:05,209
That was grand. But I didn't quite belong.
1250
01:26:05,376 --> 01:26:08,834
I'd say it was a little inappropriate.
1251
01:26:09,001 --> 01:26:12,209
- And... Oh, yeah. Well... Not me.
- So they'd let you know.
1252
01:26:12,376 --> 01:26:14,751
I didn't personally,
I didn't have the right... No.
1253
01:26:14,917 --> 01:26:16,459
I didn't do it.
1254
01:26:16,626 --> 01:26:20,167
But I was made to feel my presence
wasn't justified...
1255
01:26:20,334 --> 01:26:24,334
But that was the rule.
1256
01:26:24,501 --> 01:26:29,042
I had a seat at the table.
I'd eat like the captain across the table.
1257
01:26:29,209 --> 01:26:33,501
We had the same mess kit,
and we had the same food.
1258
01:26:33,667 --> 01:26:36,209
But it bothered people.
1259
01:26:36,376 --> 01:26:39,626
Then one day, I was...
1260
01:26:39,792 --> 01:26:43,084
I was caught, and humiliated, saying...
1261
01:26:44,292 --> 01:26:47,876
I couldn't tell word for word.
1262
01:26:48,042 --> 01:26:51,417
There was a discussion,
and it was the follow-up
1263
01:26:51,584 --> 01:26:54,626
that led to the comment,
1264
01:26:55,626 --> 01:26:59,542
"It's not normal that a Macar..."
1265
01:26:59,709 --> 01:27:03,751
Because Italian immigrants were
called "Macars" at the time.
1266
01:27:03,917 --> 01:27:06,376
Today, Arabs are called "bougnoules."
1267
01:27:06,542 --> 01:27:09,417
Macar for macaroni.
1268
01:27:11,126 --> 01:27:13,001
We had a star on our heads.
1269
01:27:13,167 --> 01:27:16,751
So I was the Macar
of the officers' mess hall.
1270
01:27:16,917 --> 01:27:19,876
And one day, I was called a Macar.
1271
01:27:20,042 --> 01:27:23,542
And I really didn't take it well.
1272
01:27:23,709 --> 01:27:27,084
- How did you react?
- Well...
1273
01:27:28,376 --> 01:27:32,417
- I reacted very poorly.
- Or well, maybe?
1274
01:27:33,584 --> 01:27:36,167
Well for me, poorly for them.
1275
01:27:39,001 --> 01:27:43,626
I had a very bad reaction,
it was violent one.
1276
01:27:43,792 --> 01:27:48,584
There were consequences for me,
because after that, I was...
1277
01:27:48,751 --> 01:27:53,626
- You have...
- I was picked to do...
1278
01:27:55,001 --> 01:27:58,251
When someone had to go do something,
1279
01:27:58,417 --> 01:28:01,626
my group was chosen, I was.
1280
01:28:02,376 --> 01:28:07,417
Life was very hard,
not because I was an army man
1281
01:28:07,584 --> 01:28:12,667
in Algeria, where we'd risk our lives,
we were not there
1282
01:28:12,834 --> 01:28:14,584
to twiddle our thumbs...
1283
01:28:14,751 --> 01:28:17,501
but life was very hard,
because I was constantly worried
1284
01:28:17,667 --> 01:28:19,917
about what happened in Grenoble,
1285
01:28:20,084 --> 01:28:23,501
and that's something
that always ate away at me.
1286
01:28:23,667 --> 01:28:27,334
It ate away at me on one hand,
1287
01:28:27,501 --> 01:28:31,292
and stimulated me on the other.
That's what drove me.
1288
01:28:32,376 --> 01:28:37,501
And maybe it was what kept me from...
1289
01:28:37,667 --> 01:28:40,876
messing around, I would say.
1290
01:28:41,042 --> 01:28:43,042
- You wanted to?
- I did.
1291
01:28:43,209 --> 01:28:47,417
- What kind of messing around?
- Everything you can imagine.
1292
01:28:47,584 --> 01:28:52,667
Everything you can imagine.
And I didn't do it.
1293
01:28:52,834 --> 01:28:55,292
I held my duties.
1294
01:28:55,459 --> 01:28:58,126
I respected my...
1295
01:28:58,292 --> 01:29:02,084
I respected the service,
1296
01:29:02,251 --> 01:29:07,792
and it was important for me
to come home, my head held high.
1297
01:29:08,792 --> 01:29:13,167
Always out of respect
1298
01:29:13,334 --> 01:29:16,584
for myself, and mostly for my mother
1299
01:29:16,751 --> 01:29:20,001
- who was waiting for me.
- Would you hear from her?
1300
01:29:20,167 --> 01:29:25,042
Well... The problem, I took it very hard,
1301
01:29:25,209 --> 01:29:29,126
I took it very hard.
The problem was that...
1302
01:29:30,126 --> 01:29:32,542
again, she could neither read nor write.
1303
01:29:32,709 --> 01:29:36,792
This neighbor, a lady,
who lived with us,
1304
01:29:36,959 --> 01:29:40,709
read my letters.
And, of course, when I wrote,
1305
01:29:40,876 --> 01:29:44,584
I would write to my neighbor first.
1306
01:29:44,751 --> 01:29:50,209
And between us, there was a bond.
1307
01:29:50,376 --> 01:29:54,626
The first paragraph was for her...
1308
01:29:54,792 --> 01:30:00,667
No, the first paragraph was for my mother,
where I made up stories,
1309
01:30:00,834 --> 01:30:02,876
and the second was for her.
1310
01:30:03,042 --> 01:30:07,876
I told her the truth.
I told her what I was really doing.
1311
01:30:08,042 --> 01:30:11,126
But for tranquility...
1312
01:30:11,292 --> 01:30:14,626
the tranquility at home,
1313
01:30:14,792 --> 01:30:18,584
I was managing a garage,
1314
01:30:18,751 --> 01:30:25,751
we'd fix trucks. And at our location,
there were flowers everywhere.
1315
01:30:25,917 --> 01:30:30,001
There was a pond,
there was a place with a reservoir,
1316
01:30:30,167 --> 01:30:35,959
a nice pond with flowers and palm trees,
grass. It was a gorgeous sight.
1317
01:30:36,126 --> 01:30:40,459
I insisted on taking pictures.
I would take pictures by the water,
1318
01:30:40,626 --> 01:30:46,792
near flowers, big magnolias,
I didn't know what it was.
1319
01:30:46,959 --> 01:30:51,667
But I had beautiful pictures.
Looking at them, you couldn't say,
1320
01:30:51,834 --> 01:30:55,167
"My son is in Algeria, he's fighting."
It was impossible.
1321
01:30:55,334 --> 01:31:01,167
So I would regularly take pictures,
at the same place in a different outfit.
1322
01:31:36,501 --> 01:31:39,001
Your mother never suspected anything?
1323
01:31:46,792 --> 01:31:49,001
I don't know, actually.
1324
01:31:50,126 --> 01:31:52,917
I don't know, I've never known.
1325
01:31:54,292 --> 01:31:58,501
I think she made a lot of effort
to adhere to...
1326
01:31:58,667 --> 01:32:02,292
to what I wanted her to believe.
1327
01:32:02,459 --> 01:32:06,917
Because I received mail,
my neighbor would write it,
1328
01:32:07,084 --> 01:32:12,501
and when I received it,
I got to say or think
1329
01:32:12,667 --> 01:32:14,792
that the letters weren't truthful.
1330
01:32:16,001 --> 01:32:21,417
I was allowed to think that.
And one day, the consequences
1331
01:32:23,084 --> 01:32:26,042
made me say her letters weren't truthful.
1332
01:32:27,251 --> 01:32:32,459
When I returned,
when I was released and got back home,
1333
01:32:32,626 --> 01:32:36,459
well, when I saw my mother again,
1334
01:32:36,626 --> 01:32:40,376
one day I saw her again,
and I didn't see her as I left her.
1335
01:32:41,584 --> 01:32:44,834
That led me to think
that the letters I received...
1336
01:32:45,001 --> 01:32:49,751
I had received letters that appeased me,
1337
01:32:49,917 --> 01:32:54,459
- but it wasn't real. She did.
- The neighbor played the same game.
1338
01:32:54,626 --> 01:32:56,501
You remember when you saw
your mother?
1339
01:32:56,667 --> 01:32:58,501
Yes, absolutely.
1340
01:32:59,792 --> 01:33:01,084
Yes.
1341
01:33:02,834 --> 01:33:06,626
Good question... Oh, yes.
1342
01:33:09,959 --> 01:33:11,667
Let's go back to that later.
1343
01:33:15,501 --> 01:33:20,876
Where did your draftees come from?
1344
01:33:21,042 --> 01:33:22,751
From everywhere.
1345
01:33:22,917 --> 01:33:25,876
- Socially?
- There were Bretons.
1346
01:33:26,042 --> 01:33:29,876
There were Bretons. I have nothing
against them, but there they were.
1347
01:33:30,042 --> 01:33:33,792
And there were people from the Cantal.
1348
01:33:33,959 --> 01:33:39,209
A lot of... It's funny because there were
many people from the South.
1349
01:33:40,709 --> 01:33:44,751
Marseilles, Aix-en-Provence,
1350
01:33:44,917 --> 01:33:47,751
Avignon, many people from the South.
1351
01:33:47,917 --> 01:33:49,876
A motley crew.
1352
01:33:50,042 --> 01:33:55,251
Bretons and people from Marseilles
don't speak the same way.
1353
01:33:55,417 --> 01:33:57,334
You could say
they were of a different cloth.
1354
01:33:57,501 --> 01:34:01,917
- Were social differences prominent?
- Yes, very.
1355
01:34:02,084 --> 01:34:03,667
Very much.
1356
01:34:06,167 --> 01:34:10,042
Yes. Social backgrounds,
they were many people from...
1357
01:34:10,209 --> 01:34:14,501
I'd say people from...
How can I say this?
1358
01:34:16,334 --> 01:34:17,751
It was poor.
1359
01:34:19,542 --> 01:34:22,126
You can't say...
There were no educated people.
1360
01:34:22,292 --> 01:34:25,376
That's it, there were no educated people.
1361
01:34:26,667 --> 01:34:31,959
They were people from the street,
the neighborhood, the country,
1362
01:34:32,126 --> 01:34:37,876
rural, if you will,
but it was very short.
1363
01:34:39,042 --> 01:34:43,126
So, I'd say people were...
1364
01:34:44,334 --> 01:34:49,251
were conditioned to obey.
1365
01:34:50,542 --> 01:34:56,042
When they rebelled
they did it because they couldn't anymore.
1366
01:34:56,209 --> 01:35:00,876
But it wasn't... The boys weren't...
1367
01:35:01,042 --> 01:35:05,584
They didn't have the intellectual means
1368
01:35:05,751 --> 01:35:08,834
to go against the orders they were given.
1369
01:35:10,417 --> 01:35:14,501
Do you know today how your mother
coped with your absence?
1370
01:35:14,667 --> 01:35:16,751
Let me tell you, she died of it.
1371
01:35:28,042 --> 01:35:29,709
This is Sergeant Jean Aperté.
1372
01:35:29,876 --> 01:35:35,376
I'm taking this opportunity to say hello
to my family, to my brothers and sisters.
1373
01:35:35,542 --> 01:35:38,501
Morale is good. Health is good.
1374
01:35:38,667 --> 01:35:42,376
Private First Class, Joseph Luciani.
I'll take this occasion
1375
01:35:42,542 --> 01:35:45,834
to deliver good news to my parents,
1376
01:35:46,001 --> 01:35:48,126
and my impending return.
1377
01:35:50,417 --> 01:35:54,417
Private First Class Trigot.
Sending love to my parents.
1378
01:35:54,584 --> 01:35:56,667
Morale is good, health...
1379
01:35:56,834 --> 01:35:59,959
Infantryman Robert Bazy
taking this opportunity
1380
01:36:00,126 --> 01:36:04,959
to send love to my fiancée
and to my family, and health.
1381
01:36:05,126 --> 01:36:08,626
- Robert.
- This is Albert Siocat,
1382
01:36:08,792 --> 01:36:13,417
dear parents, I'm very well.
I hope it's the same for you,
1383
01:36:13,584 --> 01:36:16,751
that your trip back from your vacation
went well.
1384
01:36:16,917 --> 01:36:20,167
Much love to all.
1385
01:36:20,334 --> 01:36:25,042
- You connected to France via mail?
- Yes, it was the mail.
1386
01:36:25,209 --> 01:36:29,417
I would write to my wife
almost every day.
1387
01:36:29,584 --> 01:36:33,167
Because I got married
when I went to the army.
1388
01:36:33,334 --> 01:36:36,292
From France, we were informed via mail.
1389
01:36:37,417 --> 01:36:40,292
- It would get through?
- It did. It was sacred.
1390
01:36:40,459 --> 01:36:42,209
Better the mail than food.
1391
01:36:42,376 --> 01:36:47,001
I didn't even write to my parents
for 18 months.
1392
01:36:47,167 --> 01:36:49,751
Yes, but you're a loner.
1393
01:36:49,917 --> 01:36:54,084
To know if I was alive or dead,
1394
01:36:54,251 --> 01:36:57,709
they wrote to the battalion command post.
1395
01:36:57,876 --> 01:37:00,792
The captain forced me to write.
1396
01:37:00,959 --> 01:37:03,417
It was hard to write when we were
1397
01:37:03,584 --> 01:37:10,001
in the mountains, all over the place.
First off, we were not equipped.
1398
01:37:10,167 --> 01:37:15,167
When we came back down to camp,
we'd write.
1399
01:37:15,334 --> 01:37:19,792
- You wrote about everything?
- Of course.
1400
01:37:20,959 --> 01:37:23,126
I don't think there was any censorship.
1401
01:37:23,292 --> 01:37:28,626
There was nothing in the letters I got,
like the ones I sent.
1402
01:37:28,792 --> 01:37:31,792
When I wrote to my parents or to my wife,
1403
01:37:31,959 --> 01:37:35,459
- I never wrote what happened.
- Why?
1404
01:37:35,626 --> 01:37:37,709
To not worry them.
1405
01:37:38,917 --> 01:37:41,001
What did you write then?
1406
01:37:42,792 --> 01:37:45,709
The minimum of things that could hurt.
1407
01:37:45,876 --> 01:37:50,042
I didn't want to write I was okay,
I wasn't.
1408
01:37:51,042 --> 01:37:56,751
I didn't want to write about what
I experienced either, because I thought
1409
01:37:57,959 --> 01:38:00,501
it would have
1410
01:38:00,667 --> 01:38:03,459
worried and upset them,
what I didn't realize
1411
01:38:03,626 --> 01:38:07,542
was that not writing
worried them much more.
1412
01:38:07,709 --> 01:38:10,542
We received mail about every day.
1413
01:38:10,709 --> 01:38:15,459
Our Piper would fly over us and throw it.
1414
01:38:15,626 --> 01:38:18,126
But ours was taken once a month.
1415
01:38:18,292 --> 01:38:21,042
Every time there was
a convoy to Michelet
1416
01:38:21,209 --> 01:38:23,917
or a chopper
coming for a wounded soldier.
1417
01:38:24,084 --> 01:38:26,542
- Your letters were sent every day?
- Every day.
1418
01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:28,917
Not sent, but I wrote every day.
1419
01:38:29,084 --> 01:38:31,042
They wouldn't leave every day.
1420
01:38:31,209 --> 01:38:36,251
I wrote every day and she'd receive them
in a package.
1421
01:38:36,417 --> 01:38:40,126
"I am on the watchtower.
It is four thirty in the morning.
1422
01:38:40,292 --> 01:38:44,709
And I just drew you a caricature
of the landscape we are overlooking.
1423
01:38:44,876 --> 01:38:47,084
Just a part of it.
1424
01:38:47,251 --> 01:38:49,626
On the other side,
there are only mountains.
1425
01:38:49,792 --> 01:38:51,334
My dear,
1426
01:38:51,501 --> 01:38:56,001
if you knew how many hours I spend
looking at this section of the land,
1427
01:38:56,167 --> 01:38:57,792
I am disgusted.
1428
01:38:57,959 --> 01:39:02,417
I think of you, I write, I draw, I dream,
1429
01:39:02,584 --> 01:39:05,376
and I look to the setting sun.
1430
01:39:05,542 --> 01:39:09,376
Here, I'll mark
where it disappears for you.
1431
01:39:09,542 --> 01:39:12,792
My love, I'm embracing you in thought.
1432
01:39:12,959 --> 01:39:17,001
Never have I spent
such long hours waiting.
1433
01:39:17,167 --> 01:39:20,501
A year goes by so quickly
when we're together.
1434
01:39:21,501 --> 01:39:24,751
/I is five 0 'clock,
and the sun is rising. ”
1435
01:39:24,917 --> 01:39:31,501
That's on the side of the section
between Port-Cé and Sebanna.
1436
01:39:31,667 --> 01:39:36,459
With my engineers, we were
reinforcing the electrified fence.
1437
01:39:36,626 --> 01:39:41,876
And we kept laying mines.
1438
01:39:42,042 --> 01:39:47,834
Between the electric part
there were landmines, and then a trail.
1439
01:39:48,001 --> 01:39:51,501
We used to avoid the trapped
and electrified parts.
1440
01:39:51,667 --> 01:39:56,501
And that allowed us to repair
and to bring in heavy gear.
1441
01:39:56,667 --> 01:40:00,501
Along the Algeria-Tunisia border,
same thing on the Moroccan side,
1442
01:40:00,667 --> 01:40:05,792
there was a fence, a barb wire network,
in which there was
1443
01:40:05,959 --> 01:40:08,626
an electrified part, 5,000 volts.
1444
01:40:08,792 --> 01:40:12,834
We were from the national power
company, or the private sector like me.
1445
01:40:13,001 --> 01:40:16,917
We had one thing in common,
we were all electricians.
1446
01:40:17,084 --> 01:40:20,334
We were military on the side.
1447
01:40:20,501 --> 01:40:22,334
Were there many intrusion attempts?
1448
01:40:22,501 --> 01:40:27,792
In the Kouif zone, we practically had
one attempt a day.
1449
01:40:27,959 --> 01:40:32,167
- Every day. Nights?
- Practically.
1450
01:40:32,334 --> 01:40:34,209
Every night, actually.
1451
01:40:34,376 --> 01:40:39,292
With, of course, an uptick on Fridays,
Saturdays, and Sundays,
1452
01:40:39,459 --> 01:40:44,626
which in the mind of the Fell thought
was the period when, normally,
1453
01:40:44,792 --> 01:40:46,542
people were less active.
1454
01:40:46,709 --> 01:40:49,584
ALN fighters manage to come
either through...
1455
01:40:49,751 --> 01:40:52,584
they would breach
1456
01:40:52,751 --> 01:40:56,876
the network with Bangalore torpedoes,
big pipes filled with explosives.
1457
01:40:57,042 --> 01:40:59,834
They'd slide them in the fence,
1458
01:41:00,001 --> 01:41:02,876
they would blow it up, and they had
a yard-wide access.
1459
01:41:03,042 --> 01:41:07,584
We had to intervene.
If we didn't reconnect soon,
1460
01:41:07,751 --> 01:41:11,501
we could have a streak of intrusions,
which happened.
1461
01:41:11,667 --> 01:41:13,792
They started by cutting at the end,
1462
01:41:13,959 --> 01:41:17,042
and they got closer,
and it became harder to detect.
1463
01:41:17,209 --> 01:41:21,917
You had to go with a toolbox,
a bag, in the spotlight,
1464
01:41:22,084 --> 01:41:26,084
get into the network, and repair.
It was very unpleasant.
1465
01:41:26,251 --> 01:41:29,334
- Why?
- We knew that the guys who cut it
1466
01:41:29,501 --> 01:41:31,667
- were across the fence.
- They shot at you?
1467
01:41:31,834 --> 01:41:33,542
Well, yeah. It happened.
1468
01:41:33,709 --> 01:41:39,126
That's a night skirmish.
We had to repair the breach.
1469
01:41:39,292 --> 01:41:44,542
The marines helped us,
and we worked under the firefly lights.
1470
01:41:44,709 --> 01:41:50,209
For me, our adversaries were invisible.
1471
01:41:50,376 --> 01:41:53,209
They were increasingly ingenuous.
1472
01:41:53,376 --> 01:41:58,459
They'd find more ways to go through.
And so were we.
1473
01:41:58,626 --> 01:42:01,292
We'd trap our networks,
we'd make dead ends.
1474
01:42:01,459 --> 01:42:05,542
When the guys came
with their Bangalores,
1475
01:42:05,709 --> 01:42:09,084
they would get... It didn't create
huge damage,
1476
01:42:09,251 --> 01:42:11,792
but the other side got a nice shock.
1477
01:42:11,959 --> 01:42:15,292
- What pushed you to risk your life?
- I don't know.
1478
01:42:15,459 --> 01:42:17,667
I think it...
1479
01:42:17,834 --> 01:42:20,126
- Was it your fence?
- Probably.
1480
01:42:20,292 --> 01:42:23,542
Don't you think today that it was
1481
01:42:23,709 --> 01:42:26,501
ridiculous to risk your life
for a 100-yard fence?
1482
01:42:28,167 --> 01:42:32,667
Do I find it ridiculous today
to risk my life for a 100-yard fence?
1483
01:42:35,334 --> 01:42:37,751
I don't. No.
1484
01:42:37,917 --> 01:42:41,834
The day I saw death from up close
1485
01:42:42,001 --> 01:42:44,542
on the network,
1486
01:42:44,709 --> 01:42:46,542
it was friendly fire.
1487
01:42:46,709 --> 01:42:49,459
Instead of the people
on the other side,
1488
01:42:49,626 --> 01:42:53,042
it was a guy in the back,
with his Jeep and a machine gun.
1489
01:42:53,209 --> 01:42:56,042
And when he saw our Jeep coming,
1490
01:42:56,209 --> 01:42:59,792
they were always in the back
and we were close to the network
1491
01:42:59,959 --> 01:43:03,084
to try and see where the cut was.
He panicked and fired.
1492
01:43:03,251 --> 01:43:07,126
- On you.
- On us. The round went through the Jeep,
1493
01:43:07,292 --> 01:43:10,626
wounding my deputy who was in front.
1494
01:43:10,792 --> 01:43:15,876
That's when I was closest to death.
1495
01:43:16,042 --> 01:43:17,959
- With French bullets?
- Yes.
1496
01:43:18,126 --> 01:43:20,709
- Did this type of accident happened often?
- Very.
1497
01:43:20,876 --> 01:43:25,251
Very often, simply because
we were electricity professionals,
1498
01:43:25,417 --> 01:43:30,042
and in hindsight,
we were taking too many risks.
1499
01:43:30,209 --> 01:43:34,334
The boys on the other side
were spread along the network,
1500
01:43:34,501 --> 01:43:37,959
some had been serving
for a couple of months.
1501
01:43:38,126 --> 01:43:41,626
They were alone in their Jeep
with their gun, and they were scared.
1502
01:43:41,792 --> 01:43:42,876
Accidents occurred.
1503
01:43:43,042 --> 01:43:47,626
They happened because
of what we called inkpot mines.
1504
01:43:47,792 --> 01:43:49,917
We had a problem,
1505
01:43:51,376 --> 01:43:54,501
I didn't have it too much
but some mates had a big one,
1506
01:43:54,667 --> 01:43:58,792
their fuses were bright,
1507
01:43:59,959 --> 01:44:05,792
and crows would come
and take the mines out of curiosity
1508
01:44:05,959 --> 01:44:11,751
thinking it was food, and put them down,
but not where they found it.
1509
01:44:11,917 --> 01:44:14,834
Sometimes we had nasty surprises.
1510
01:44:15,001 --> 01:44:18,459
We also had violent thunderstorms.
1511
01:44:18,626 --> 01:44:23,834
Water would flood the entire field,
and we'd find mines everywhere.
1512
01:44:24,001 --> 01:44:27,667
That's why we couldn't
dispose of the mines.
1513
01:44:27,834 --> 01:44:33,417
The wadis went up taking the mines,
and for a couple of weeks,
1514
01:44:33,584 --> 01:44:37,376
Jeeps would often...
We stayed in the Jeep if we could.
1515
01:44:37,542 --> 01:44:43,334
Jeeps would blow up on landmines,
wheels blowing up, Jeeps overturning.
1516
01:44:43,501 --> 01:44:46,709
When the wind blew
we had tufts of grass
1517
01:44:46,876 --> 01:44:51,667
flying around
and that ended up in the network.
1518
01:44:51,834 --> 01:44:54,834
We weren't lucky,
because it would get stuck in wires.
1519
01:44:55,001 --> 01:44:58,001
When the tufts of grass got stuck,
1520
01:44:58,167 --> 01:45:02,042
it pulled on the thing,
the mine came up and exploded.
1521
01:45:02,209 --> 01:45:05,376
- It's true.
- Were there accidents?
1522
01:45:05,542 --> 01:45:08,584
There were some, yeah.
1523
01:45:08,751 --> 01:45:10,251
There were accidents.
1524
01:45:10,417 --> 01:45:12,292
- Serious ones?
- Unfortunately.
1525
01:45:12,459 --> 01:45:18,292
Yes, there were accidents.
Privates lost their lives.
1526
01:45:18,459 --> 01:45:22,542
- How do you feel about it?
- Something profoundly unfair.
1527
01:45:24,292 --> 01:45:27,209
Something profoundly unfair. Of course.
1528
01:45:27,376 --> 01:45:31,584
Saying that we lost someone,
because we were given an order
1529
01:45:31,751 --> 01:45:37,834
that was misplaced, inappropriate.
We executed an order
1530
01:45:38,001 --> 01:45:43,459
when we should have,
and we had the right to, disobey it.
1531
01:45:43,626 --> 01:45:49,209
- Were there protests back at camp?
- Yes, there were.
1532
01:45:50,584 --> 01:45:53,334
- There were protests.
- How did it translate?
1533
01:45:56,376 --> 01:45:57,792
Is it important?
1534
01:46:00,251 --> 01:46:03,459
It'd say people came back
with murder on their mind.
1535
01:46:06,584 --> 01:46:10,792
Murder, of course,
for the one who gave the order.
1536
01:46:26,751 --> 01:46:30,334
Killed in action.
1537
01:46:30,501 --> 01:46:33,459
- Bertin, Jacques-Francois.
- Killed in action.
1538
01:46:33,626 --> 01:46:35,959
- Boudurier, Arthur.
- Killed in action.
1539
01:46:40,292 --> 01:46:43,459
Are you proud you were
a Red Beret?
1540
01:46:43,626 --> 01:46:47,251
I was one, and I still am one.
1541
01:46:48,751 --> 01:46:54,167
And I'll always be.
I took part to the protest in Grenoble.
1542
01:46:54,334 --> 01:46:58,376
I was in the group at the construction
site, and we threw what we found.
1543
01:46:58,542 --> 01:47:02,251
- You didn't mind being in a unit...
- On the contrary.
1544
01:47:02,417 --> 01:47:05,209
If I had to do it again,
I'd ask for the same unit.
1545
01:47:05,376 --> 01:47:09,501
In terms of education, I was the weakest.
I had a secondary education.
1546
01:47:09,667 --> 01:47:13,042
Two or three were volunteers,
the rest were deferments,
1547
01:47:13,209 --> 01:47:17,584
in two regiments made up
of .90 % of draftees.
1548
01:47:17,751 --> 01:47:22,834
Some were straight from business school,
or were already law clerks.
1549
01:47:23,001 --> 01:47:27,709
We had two seminarians.
To give you an idea of the mood,
1550
01:47:27,876 --> 01:47:30,751
far from the braggarts,
1551
01:47:30,917 --> 01:47:35,251
the big mouths like
those of the paratroopers.
1552
01:47:35,417 --> 01:47:38,959
We made a section book.
1553
01:47:39,126 --> 01:47:43,542
It's a little hard to recognize oneself,
but you can see yourself in the pictures.
1554
01:47:43,709 --> 01:47:46,709
The entire section, plus ranking officers.
1555
01:47:46,876 --> 01:47:48,917
And we made it so
1556
01:47:49,084 --> 01:47:53,417
- each of us had the title of a movie.
- What was yours?
1557
01:47:53,584 --> 01:47:57,001
- Bitter Rice.
- What about you?
1558
01:47:57,167 --> 01:48:02,292
- Tell me, I don't have my glasses.
- The Silent World.
1559
01:48:02,459 --> 01:48:06,417
'94 concentrate from Spain and Grenoble,
his accent matched his mustache, ”
1560
01:48:06,584 --> 01:48:09,126
- Gone. "...hides his reined-in passion."
- Yeah.
1561
01:48:09,292 --> 01:48:12,001
"He expresses it in his letters nestled
in his upper bed.
1562
01:48:12,167 --> 01:48:15,334
And let us glimpse at it
'When you dance, dance, dance...'
1563
01:48:15,501 --> 01:48:19,167
- It was the famous...
- The time's chorus.
1564
01:48:19,334 --> 01:48:23,126
- Gilbert Bécaud's chorus. At that time.
- Yeah.
1565
01:48:23,292 --> 01:48:26,959
- Did you listen to...?
- Music, yes.
1566
01:48:27,126 --> 01:48:29,542
I used to sing a bit.
1567
01:48:29,709 --> 01:48:34,001
The atmosphere among paratroopers
was great during basic training.
1568
01:48:35,084 --> 01:48:39,126
We had a sub-lieutenant,
Michel Boëns,
1569
01:48:39,292 --> 01:48:41,126
a young reservist,
1570
01:48:41,292 --> 01:48:45,584
and this guy
had created an extraordinary team.
1571
01:48:45,751 --> 01:48:47,667
I can read something if you don't mind.
1572
01:48:47,834 --> 01:48:50,376
For example, something he wrote:
1573
01:48:50,542 --> 01:48:52,834
"One last time,
I saw you climb the ladder,
1574
01:48:53,001 --> 01:48:58,251
clumsy, leaning left,
to counteract the propeller's wind.
1575
01:48:58,417 --> 01:49:01,876
One last time, I saw you look
for your place in the plane,
1576
01:49:02,042 --> 01:49:06,001
turn around and sit gently
facing the tail of our plane.
1577
01:49:06,167 --> 01:49:11,501
This time you hooked calmly, analyzing,
measuring, understanding your moves
1578
01:49:11,667 --> 01:49:13,667
with more gravity than other days.
1579
01:49:13,834 --> 01:49:20,084
One last time, the green light came on.
I wanted to jump last to close the door
1580
01:49:20,251 --> 01:49:25,876
that I had opened a few months
when you arrived.
1581
01:49:26,042 --> 01:49:30,001
Under our cupolas, to the land of men,
which is sometimes so good to leave."
1582
01:49:30,167 --> 01:49:35,792
Montauban, November 1956 -
Pau, February 11th, 1957,
1583
01:49:35,959 --> 01:49:40,834
sub-lieutenant Michel Boëns,
he was about 23. I think.
1584
01:49:41,001 --> 01:49:46,459
He fell leading his section
May 10th, 1957, IXth RCP.
1585
01:49:46,626 --> 01:49:51,126
We had amazing leaders.
They were great with us.
1586
01:49:51,292 --> 01:49:58,042
We were free,
we didn't have to salute all the time.
1587
01:49:58,209 --> 01:50:04,667
We could tell them
what we needed to tell them.
1588
01:50:04,834 --> 01:50:08,042
They were people who had known
the Second World War,
1589
01:50:08,209 --> 01:50:14,209
who had been in Indochina,
had been wounded, several times,
1590
01:50:15,334 --> 01:50:21,001
who were very decorated,
and strongly believed in French Algeria.
1591
01:50:21,167 --> 01:50:23,376
We were the first on missions.
1592
01:50:23,542 --> 01:50:28,667
Thanks to helicopters, they flew us far
and we walked back. Kept us in shape.
1593
01:50:28,834 --> 01:50:32,917
We weren't very homesick
in the great Kabylia.
1594
01:50:33,084 --> 01:50:36,251
Some mountains were as high
as here. In Jura there's snow.
1595
01:50:36,417 --> 01:50:39,709
Do you remember
the first time under fire?
1596
01:50:39,876 --> 01:50:46,834
Yes. I came in the next day, at 11 a.m.,
there was a skirmish
1597
01:50:47,001 --> 01:50:50,251
but quite far away.
I had the radio with the antenna,
1598
01:50:50,417 --> 01:50:54,459
I had to shadow the section leader,
to stay close,
1599
01:50:54,626 --> 01:51:00,834
and I was warned that the first to be shot
were the leader and the radio operator.
1600
01:51:01,001 --> 01:51:04,376
So the first thing I did was to sit down.
1601
01:51:05,376 --> 01:51:08,209
The leader didn't want me to,
so he said, "Stand up.
1602
01:51:08,376 --> 01:51:12,792
You have to stay with me."
I said, "Yeah, but I'm tired."
1603
01:51:12,959 --> 01:51:17,959
I didn't work so it was
a moment of fear, but then,
1604
01:51:18,126 --> 01:51:24,126
in the mood,
you don't even think about it.
1605
01:51:24,292 --> 01:51:28,751
I didn't know much. I heard bullets,
I thought they were firing on us,
1606
01:51:28,917 --> 01:51:32,334
and I hid, more or less.
I tried to hide behind a tree.
1607
01:51:32,501 --> 01:51:36,376
He said, "It's far. There're no danger.
There's no bang, we're okay."
1608
01:51:36,542 --> 01:51:40,376
We were in a wadi,
in the Great Kabylia,
1609
01:51:40,542 --> 01:51:45,917
we were doing a grid search
in a wadi, and it was...
1610
01:51:46,084 --> 01:51:49,709
the most striking. I raised my head
above a rock and I saw
1611
01:51:49,876 --> 01:51:53,084
two black holes right in front of me,
a rifle's barrel and...
1612
01:51:53,251 --> 01:51:56,667
- How far?
- Three feet from my head.
1613
01:51:56,834 --> 01:52:00,917
I got lucky, maybe there was
a god for paratroopers. I shot first.
1614
01:52:01,084 --> 01:52:02,834
That's why I'm here with you today.
1615
01:52:03,001 --> 01:52:05,751
I spent the night by the side
of a wounded individual.
1616
01:52:05,917 --> 01:52:08,126
That was the first skirmish.
1617
01:52:08,292 --> 01:52:11,626
There were nine dead.
1618
01:52:11,792 --> 01:52:15,584
Including an officer, a friend.
1619
01:52:15,751 --> 01:52:19,251
And Sub-Lieutenant De Guitard.
1620
01:52:19,417 --> 01:52:26,292
Next to me, a young sergeant who was
hit in the chest. We couldn't evacuate him.
1621
01:52:26,459 --> 01:52:30,667
I talked with him a bit.
I said, "Don't worry,
1622
01:52:30,834 --> 01:52:34,126
I think the helicopters will come."
Unfortunately,
1623
01:52:34,292 --> 01:52:36,709
they could only land on the ridges
opposite.
1624
01:52:36,876 --> 01:52:38,667
They evacuated wounded of the 2nd REP.
1625
01:52:38,834 --> 01:52:42,334
There was a lot of fighting
on the ridges opposite.
1626
01:52:42,501 --> 01:52:45,376
And being completely exhausted,
1627
01:52:45,542 --> 01:52:50,834
I fell asleep, and when I woke up
at five a.m., he was dead.
1628
01:52:51,001 --> 01:52:57,876
People always forget
that the FLN had scopes like us.
1629
01:52:58,042 --> 01:53:01,084
They had state-of-the-art weapons.
1630
01:53:01,251 --> 01:53:05,167
Be they .303 British, Italian Statis,
1631
01:53:05,334 --> 01:53:08,209
which did tremendous damage.
1632
01:53:08,376 --> 01:53:14,667
They didn't have many of them,
but we could hear their weird noises.
1633
01:53:14,834 --> 01:53:20,001
It's true, the bullets I saw
1634
01:53:20,167 --> 01:53:25,126
could take out a limb. If it hit an arm
or something else, it made a huge hole.
1635
01:53:25,292 --> 01:53:29,376
The guy couldn't survive.
We were wary of them.
1636
01:53:29,542 --> 01:53:32,084
It felt like...
1637
01:53:32,251 --> 01:53:36,501
As soon as we heard that noise,
our ears would flap shut.
1638
01:54:21,626 --> 01:54:26,751
After a mission,
1639
01:54:26,917 --> 01:54:31,084
our section was stuck for eleven days
1640
01:54:31,251 --> 01:54:36,917
without water to wash or shave,
barely enough to drink.
1641
01:54:37,084 --> 01:54:39,709
When we came down to base,
they were miserable.
1642
01:54:40,876 --> 01:54:44,417
There no socks in boots.
1643
01:54:44,584 --> 01:54:48,959
They called us the scented soldiers,
but we were far from it.
1644
01:54:50,417 --> 01:54:52,751
Uh... '58,
1645
01:54:54,084 --> 01:55:00,042
in the regiment,
about 60 killed and 50 wounded.
1646
01:55:01,376 --> 01:55:07,126
In total, yes.
Even more than 50...
1647
01:55:07,292 --> 01:55:12,042
killed. Because in '58
there was the Souk Ahras battle,
1648
01:55:13,167 --> 01:55:19,251
where the Fells cut through the perimeter
in several places, they got in,
1649
01:55:19,417 --> 01:55:21,584
about 800 guys.
1650
01:55:21,751 --> 01:55:24,334
They attacked from everywhere.
1651
01:55:24,501 --> 01:55:27,542
Back-up arrived a little later,
1652
01:55:27,709 --> 01:55:29,917
and the 9th fell into it.
1653
01:55:30,084 --> 01:55:36,251
A company was
flown in the middle of...
1654
01:55:37,917 --> 01:55:40,834
of two katibas.
There were 300 guys.
1655
01:55:41,834 --> 01:55:47,709
And when they landed
they fired at them,
1656
01:55:47,876 --> 01:55:51,917
but no one was wounded.
When they landed, they saw
1657
01:55:52,084 --> 01:55:55,792
Fells who surrendered,
young ones, their hands up.
1658
01:55:55,959 --> 01:55:59,667
Unluckily for them, it was a tactic,
they used a whistle,
1659
01:56:00,751 --> 01:56:07,417
and when the whistle blew, they all got
down, six to ten machine guns fired.
1660
01:56:07,584 --> 01:56:13,667
Except for the FM who had lied down,
1661
01:56:13,834 --> 01:56:16,751
most were killed by the first shots.
1662
01:56:16,917 --> 01:56:20,334
And the battle lasted
four or five days.
1663
01:56:21,459 --> 01:56:25,042
In total...
1664
01:56:25,209 --> 01:56:29,667
according to reports, there was about 550
1665
01:56:29,834 --> 01:56:35,292
Fells, or OLs, as we called them.
Outlaws, or rebels,
1666
01:56:35,459 --> 01:56:37,751
who were shot and made prisoners.
1667
01:56:38,917 --> 01:56:44,376
But among us,
many killed and many wounded.
1668
01:56:44,542 --> 01:56:49,667
In 1958, out of 365 days,
1669
01:56:49,834 --> 01:56:53,959
that regiment was in the field
254 days,
1670
01:56:54,126 --> 01:56:58,084
lost 38 lives, including four officers,
1671
01:56:58,251 --> 01:57:04,709
and nine sub-officers, I think. The rest
were troops, and about 110 wounded.
1672
01:57:04,876 --> 01:57:10,376
To give you an idea.
We permanently had a...
1673
01:57:10,542 --> 01:57:15,334
horrifying regimen of physical pain,
very hard.
1674
01:57:15,501 --> 01:57:20,959
When I came home,
I weighed 120 pounds for 5'10".
1675
01:57:21,126 --> 01:57:23,917
We slept in the field,
lived like dogs,
1676
01:57:24,084 --> 01:57:28,751
spread toothpaste with our finger or our
gums bled, we only had combat rations.
1677
01:57:28,917 --> 01:57:33,042
And always...
That's how it worked for these operations.
1678
01:57:33,209 --> 01:57:36,667
One day, 200 clicks to the North,
300 to the South.
1679
01:57:36,834 --> 01:57:42,001
I suffered more...
We went to the Negrine Oasis
1680
01:57:42,167 --> 01:57:47,917
in June, July, but I suffered ten times
more from the cold than the hot weather.
1681
01:57:48,084 --> 01:57:53,126
We drove in trucks entire nights,
we saw snow in October in the Aurès.
1682
01:57:53,292 --> 01:57:57,042
The rain came down for entire nights,
1683
01:57:57,209 --> 01:58:01,126
and we three were in a water hole,
no fires allowed to avoid being shot.
1684
01:58:01,292 --> 01:58:03,376
And you think, "it's impossible,
1685
01:58:03,542 --> 01:58:05,959
I won't make it, I'll die before tomorrow."
1686
01:58:06,126 --> 01:58:07,917
And the next day the machine starts again.
1687
01:58:08,084 --> 01:58:10,834
There was air support, too.
1688
01:58:11,001 --> 01:58:12,792
They helped us quite a lot.
1689
01:58:12,959 --> 01:58:17,376
When we attacked, there were six
coming behind us,
1690
01:58:17,542 --> 01:58:19,959
we had white squares to
identify ourselves,
1691
01:58:20,126 --> 01:58:23,292
and T-6's came to Strafe
1692
01:58:23,459 --> 01:58:27,126
100 or 150 yards in front of us.
1693
01:58:28,417 --> 01:58:30,792
The guys put their heads down, of course.
1694
01:58:32,209 --> 01:58:35,542
And then... You leave...
1695
01:58:38,292 --> 01:58:43,042
under a hail of bullets,
you don't even realize it...
1696
01:58:43,209 --> 01:58:48,709
You come in contact.
You become crazy.
1697
01:58:51,417 --> 01:58:56,376
And the thing is done,
1698
01:58:57,709 --> 01:59:00,251
there's a silence, a big silence.
1699
01:59:00,417 --> 01:59:04,834
And you think friends were hit,
1700
01:59:05,001 --> 01:59:11,667
while we lived through it.
Out of luck. It's luck, that's it.
1701
01:59:11,834 --> 01:59:15,584
Did you respect your adversaries
on the field?
1702
01:59:15,751 --> 01:59:20,417
You see everything. On the other side
I saw cowards and courageous guys.
1703
01:59:20,584 --> 01:59:24,792
In the Muslim, or the Arab at the time,
The average French guy only saw
1704
01:59:24,959 --> 01:59:27,292
a pimp or a coward.
1705
01:59:27,459 --> 01:59:32,334
I saw extremely courageous guys
on the other side, and I tip my hat.
1706
01:59:32,501 --> 01:59:35,001
What did you do with
the Algerian wounded?
1707
01:59:35,167 --> 01:59:37,292
During combat,
1708
01:59:37,459 --> 01:59:41,959
a guy who was severely wounded
could be finished off.
1709
01:59:42,126 --> 01:59:43,542
- Why?
- Did you see that?
1710
01:59:43,709 --> 01:59:45,292
I did, yes.
1711
01:59:45,459 --> 01:59:48,542
That's war, because
the guy didn't stand a chance.
1712
01:59:48,709 --> 01:59:52,167
If it took him 15 or 30 minutes to die,
he had zero chance
1713
01:59:52,334 --> 01:59:55,501
to make it if he stayed alone
in the field.
1714
01:59:55,667 --> 02:00:00,376
And another round was often fired.
But I'll say that I, myself,
1715
02:00:00,542 --> 02:00:03,001
saved wounded soldiers.
1716
02:00:03,167 --> 02:00:07,042
I remember two of them
in a mine tunnel,
1717
02:00:07,209 --> 02:00:11,209
that I took out. My men who were
exhausted weren't too happy.
1718
02:00:11,376 --> 02:00:13,542
One, the old one, we carried him
1719
02:00:13,709 --> 02:00:17,042
for about four hours in the mountains,
in a tent.
1720
02:00:17,209 --> 02:00:22,751
And the young one, who only had a limp,
he was just hit on the foot,
1721
02:00:22,917 --> 02:00:25,126
supported by two of my men,
he understood,
1722
02:00:25,292 --> 02:00:29,459
and we carried him for four hours
to call a chopper and evacuate them.
1723
02:00:29,626 --> 02:00:32,917
This is a prisoner.
1724
02:00:33,084 --> 02:00:37,626
A prisoner they brought back,
about to be interrogated.
1725
02:00:37,792 --> 02:00:39,626
We made prisoners.
1726
02:00:39,792 --> 02:00:44,251
When I carried the radio,
we had a prisoner.
1727
02:00:44,417 --> 02:00:49,917
Well, poor guy, I took advantage of him
and put the radio on his back,
1728
02:00:50,084 --> 02:00:54,459
that's it. It relieved me.
1729
02:00:54,626 --> 02:00:57,334
But when we stopped to eat,
1730
02:00:57,501 --> 02:01:00,459
I shared my rations with him.
1731
02:01:00,626 --> 02:01:05,126
In the regiment,
at the end of the mission, prisoners
1732
02:01:05,292 --> 02:01:09,251
were passed on to the Second Bureau
or to the region supervisor,
1733
02:01:09,417 --> 02:01:12,209
but we didn't see them again.
1734
02:01:12,376 --> 02:01:17,584
Then what became of them...
We knew about intelligence.
1735
02:01:17,751 --> 02:01:22,792
We knew that a prisoner taken
by the Second Bureau,
1736
02:01:22,959 --> 02:01:27,001
we had a mission the next day.
The guy talked.
1737
02:01:27,167 --> 02:01:29,251
How did questioning go?
1738
02:01:29,417 --> 02:01:31,209
It went well,
far from what some think
1739
02:01:31,376 --> 02:01:34,876
that we tortured them,
that's not true. That's bullshit.
1740
02:01:35,042 --> 02:01:38,376
Maybe there was...
like everywhere else.
1741
02:01:38,542 --> 02:01:42,376
We'd question them,
and they were like anyone,
1742
02:01:42,542 --> 02:01:46,126
they were scared,
and they talked after a while.
1743
02:01:46,292 --> 02:01:48,584
- They talked spontaneously?
- Spontaneously.
1744
02:01:48,751 --> 02:01:52,251
Sometimes it took a day or two,
but they talked.
1745
02:01:52,417 --> 02:01:55,751
But we never used methods
1746
02:01:55,917 --> 02:01:58,292
like that during the latest war.
It didn't come to that.
1747
02:01:58,459 --> 02:02:00,501
- Electricity?
- No. Not us.
1748
02:02:00,667 --> 02:02:03,209
Now if it happened elsewhere...
Not us.
1749
02:02:03,376 --> 02:02:05,501
A few blows though?
1750
02:02:05,667 --> 02:02:09,251
Not particularly, other means were...
1751
02:02:09,417 --> 02:02:13,917
They are part of the work of Second
Bureau workers, but not necessarily
1752
02:02:14,084 --> 02:02:17,626
blows or things like that.
No, that's not true.
1753
02:02:17,792 --> 02:02:21,334
- And where did the prisoners go after?
- We would give them back.
1754
02:02:21,501 --> 02:02:24,751
Because we were on missions,
the helicopters brought them back.
1755
02:02:24,917 --> 02:02:28,042
Some joined and became Harkis.
1756
02:02:28,209 --> 02:02:33,834
Others, I don't know. Maybe
they were killed. Now, that's not our job.
1757
02:02:34,001 --> 02:02:39,084
They always say,
and that's what drove me to speak,
1758
02:02:39,251 --> 02:02:44,709
having enough of everything
they've shown for 30 years,
1759
02:02:44,876 --> 02:02:49,792
"Paratroopers equal torture."
I can say it in earnest,
1760
02:02:49,959 --> 02:02:53,126
the entire time I served in that regiment,
1761
02:02:53,292 --> 02:02:57,792
until late January 1959,
I never saw one case of torture,
1762
02:02:57,959 --> 02:03:03,792
never. Crimes on civilians, never.
1763
02:03:03,959 --> 02:03:06,459
It's true that the war was very tough,
1764
02:03:06,626 --> 02:03:12,876
but they can't always show us like...
And I think about the friends
1765
02:03:13,042 --> 02:03:17,667
like the one whose letter I read,
extraordinary guys.
1766
02:03:17,834 --> 02:03:23,334
It's staining their legacy
to tell and show only one version.
1767
02:03:23,501 --> 02:03:26,084
And torture or not,
1768
02:03:26,251 --> 02:03:28,542
there's not a clean or dirty war,
it doesn't exist.
1769
02:03:28,709 --> 02:03:33,501
I was nine when I saw war crimes.
I was nine in 1944.
1770
02:03:33,667 --> 02:03:36,917
And I saw young Germans
1771
02:03:37,084 --> 02:03:39,584
who were behind
1772
02:03:39,751 --> 02:03:43,126
and trekked up the Rhône Valley.
I was in a farm with my brother,
1773
02:03:43,292 --> 02:03:46,959
and the guys, they weren't SS,
it was very hard.
1774
02:03:47,126 --> 02:03:51,751
They were shot.
They only had pants, no shoes,
1775
02:03:51,917 --> 02:03:53,417
and their papers on their chest.
1776
02:03:53,584 --> 02:03:57,709
And if one of them looked young to me
when I was nine, he held a rosary,
1777
02:03:57,876 --> 02:04:03,209
he really had to be young.
A 16, 17, 18-year-old.
1778
02:04:03,376 --> 02:04:06,667
And it happened a few time
in our region.
1779
02:04:06,834 --> 02:04:08,542
It doesn't mean there are
1780
02:04:08,709 --> 02:04:13,334
many extraordinary people.
Misconduct happens.
1781
02:04:13,501 --> 02:04:16,584
It's true there were "wood chores."
It exists in every war.
1782
02:04:16,751 --> 02:04:19,376
- It will always exist.
- Did you witness any?
1783
02:04:19,542 --> 02:04:21,667
Well, yes. You had to.
1784
02:04:21,834 --> 02:04:28,584
But those were people from the army,
not civilians.
1785
02:04:28,751 --> 02:04:32,334
- Did you ever take part?
- No. Not personally.
1786
02:04:32,501 --> 02:04:34,501
- But you saw them?
- Yes, we saw them go
1787
02:04:34,667 --> 02:04:39,459
to "get wood."
First, we wondered what it was.
1788
02:04:39,626 --> 02:04:44,334
- Where does the expression come from?
- Can't say.
1789
02:04:44,501 --> 02:04:49,251
Maybe they took the prisoners
to go get wood,
1790
02:04:49,417 --> 02:04:51,959
it was a chore.
They'd go but they didn't come back.
1791
02:04:52,126 --> 02:04:55,501
- There wasn't judgment.
- They'd been judged before.
1792
02:04:55,667 --> 02:04:59,501
What about you? Could you have
tortured a prisoner to get him to talk?
1793
02:04:59,667 --> 02:05:01,917
I think it would have been very hard.
1794
02:05:02,084 --> 02:05:06,417
That said...
1795
02:05:06,584 --> 02:05:10,626
It's mostly against terrorism.
In Algiers I couldn't have,
1796
02:05:10,792 --> 02:05:12,917
but I'll admit there are moments.
1797
02:05:13,084 --> 02:05:16,292
It's sad, it's war, that what I said,
there are no clean or dirty wars.
1798
02:05:16,459 --> 02:05:19,167
There's no way it can be one or the other.
1799
02:05:19,334 --> 02:05:21,959
War is atrocious in itself.
1800
02:05:22,126 --> 02:05:25,709
Certainly, people who...
1801
02:05:25,876 --> 02:05:31,584
You have them, knowing bombs could
be planted on the street the next day.
1802
02:05:31,751 --> 02:05:34,084
Anybody would wonder.
1803
02:05:34,251 --> 02:05:37,876
What should you do?
Let the bomb explode or torture?
1804
02:05:38,042 --> 02:05:42,917
But between this technique
and what was more widespread
1805
02:05:43,084 --> 02:05:46,542
in sectors where people were isolated,
poorly supervised...
1806
02:05:46,709 --> 02:05:51,917
It probably happened there, but more
out of fear, cowardice and sadism,
1807
02:05:52,084 --> 02:05:56,126
and not to stop terrorists' bombs,
and that's much worse.
1808
02:06:02,042 --> 02:06:05,792
Did you happen to visit
the family of a friend killed in action?
1809
02:06:05,959 --> 02:06:11,501
Yes, I did. The first family I met
was when I returned for Algeria.
1810
02:06:11,667 --> 02:06:15,001
I found out Fabien died,
so I visited his mother and father,
1811
02:06:15,167 --> 02:06:17,667
and his brothers,
because we were very connected
1812
02:06:17,834 --> 02:06:21,459
through the village.
I think it's one of the hardest things.
1813
02:06:21,626 --> 02:06:22,667
DIED FOR FRANCE
1814
02:06:22,834 --> 02:06:25,709
That's why when you visit a grave
1815
02:06:25,876 --> 02:06:30,626
even 10 or 15 years later,
you still feel the same thing.
1816
02:06:30,792 --> 02:06:33,542
We were 20 and not trained to...
1817
02:06:33,709 --> 02:06:38,251
We were told to go there, we went,
we did our duty.
1818
02:06:38,417 --> 02:06:44,001
Then the paratroopers,
we were proud to be paratroopers.
1819
02:06:44,167 --> 02:06:48,334
We had our certificate,
we did our jumps.
1820
02:06:48,501 --> 02:06:51,292
We were special.
1821
02:06:51,459 --> 02:06:55,251
Then things came up.
They said paratroopers
1822
02:06:55,417 --> 02:06:59,042
were thugs, torturers, this and that.
1823
02:06:59,209 --> 02:07:03,501
So I kept quiet in civilian life,
I didn't say anything.
1824
02:07:03,667 --> 02:07:07,542
Then 30 years passed,
and I think we should talk about it,
1825
02:07:07,709 --> 02:07:09,667
because
1826
02:07:09,834 --> 02:07:14,292
some of our mates are on the brink.
1827
02:07:14,459 --> 02:07:18,959
I got news from some,
even long after.
1828
02:07:19,126 --> 02:07:22,542
I tried to track down others,
people I'd lost track of.
1829
02:07:22,709 --> 02:07:26,501
Boys of extraordinary dedication.
1830
02:07:26,667 --> 02:07:29,751
There's even one who found me
1831
02:07:29,917 --> 02:07:34,542
three years ago,
he called me from across the country.
1832
02:07:34,709 --> 02:07:39,959
And I'll admit, he must have been drinking,
1833
02:07:40,126 --> 02:07:43,584
but he called at 7 p.m., I picked up.
1834
02:07:43,751 --> 02:07:47,126
I was at the office, working late.
1835
02:07:47,292 --> 02:07:51,667
I answer, "Robert André,"
and this boy tells me,
1836
02:07:51,834 --> 02:07:57,209
"I want to kill myself.
I wanted to call my brother,
1837
02:07:57,376 --> 02:07:59,251
and I wanted to call you, sir."
1838
02:07:59,417 --> 02:08:02,917
And it took 45 minutes
to de-escalate the situation.
1839
02:08:03,084 --> 02:08:07,376
I said, "Time has passed,
no need to call me sir.
1840
02:08:07,542 --> 02:08:12,334
I have been looking for you for years,
now I think you can do it,
1841
02:08:12,501 --> 02:08:16,959
but before you do,
let's meet over a bottle of champagne."
1842
02:08:17,126 --> 02:08:20,667
And I think I de-escalated the situation,
I had him again on the phone
1843
02:08:20,834 --> 02:08:23,667
a couple of weeks later,
and I lost track of him again.
1844
02:08:23,834 --> 02:08:27,417
They did their job.
They were drafted, didn't complain,
1845
02:08:27,584 --> 02:08:31,667
expecting the re-drafted,
but they went anyway.
1846
02:08:31,834 --> 02:08:33,751
I think...
1847
02:08:35,459 --> 02:08:38,792
we have a right.
We have a right, yes.
1848
02:08:41,167 --> 02:08:44,251
When you came back,
did you still sing Bécaud?
1849
02:08:44,417 --> 02:08:48,417
No. No. It was over.
1850
02:08:49,501 --> 02:08:54,001
No, because they'd ask me
to sing in the section.
1851
02:08:57,084 --> 02:09:00,834
I sang the Bécaud song.
It was...
1852
02:09:03,042 --> 02:09:05,709
"I had only one friend."
1853
02:09:10,459 --> 02:09:15,667
And with each skirmish,
we lost one or two,
1854
02:09:15,834 --> 02:09:18,584
and then I refused to sing it.
1855
02:09:18,751 --> 02:09:21,917
Alonzo, we called Zébi.
1856
02:09:22,084 --> 02:09:24,292
Alonzo, when he came back,
1857
02:09:24,459 --> 02:09:27,959
he was no longer the Zébi we knew.
He was someone else.
1858
02:09:28,709 --> 02:09:33,001
He was a happy boy,
he sang, he joked.
1859
02:09:33,167 --> 02:09:34,751
The life of the party.
1860
02:09:34,917 --> 02:09:38,792
He was still inclined to laugh
and tell jokes,
1861
02:09:38,959 --> 02:09:42,501
but he stopped laughing
as quickly as he started.
1862
02:09:42,667 --> 02:09:47,334
But before that, we knew when it started,
but never when it ended.
1863
02:09:48,584 --> 02:09:52,917
And this guy came back traumatized.
I think he came back traumatized.
1864
02:09:53,084 --> 02:09:59,959
One day you will see we will meet
1865
02:10:00,126 --> 02:10:07,001
Somewhere, anywhere
Guided by chance
1866
02:10:07,167 --> 02:10:13,667
We will look at each other
And we will smile at each other
1867
02:10:13,834 --> 02:10:19,834
And hand in hand
Down the streets we will go
1868
02:10:20,001 --> 02:10:26,876
But time goes by so quickly
The evening will hide
1869
02:10:27,042 --> 02:10:33,292
Our hearts, these two thieves
Who keep their happiness
1870
02:10:33,459 --> 02:10:39,667
And we will arrive
On a gray square
1871
02:10:39,834 --> 02:10:41,334
Where the cobblestones
1872
02:10:41,501 --> 02:10:47,501
Will be sweet to our gray souls
1873
02:11:43,501 --> 02:11:48,834
We always fell into ambushes,
so you needed a keen eye and to be fast.
1874
02:11:49,001 --> 02:11:55,584
The other guys would set up
an ambush, and it was very costly.
1875
02:11:55,751 --> 02:11:57,792
It was very fast, and many people died.
1876
02:12:07,792 --> 02:12:12,417
We barely got to the undergrowth,
we were caught in heavy fire
1877
02:12:12,584 --> 02:12:15,876
by a Fellagha
who was certainly waiting for us.
1878
02:12:16,042 --> 02:12:21,667
Since it was always surprise attacks,
you had to shoot first,
1879
02:12:21,834 --> 02:12:23,626
because there was no mercy.
1880
02:12:32,459 --> 02:12:35,626
I was in the fifth truck.
1881
02:12:35,792 --> 02:12:39,376
It was a notch-landmine set
on the fifth truck, mine.
1882
02:12:39,542 --> 02:12:41,917
I blew up on that mine.
1883
02:12:42,084 --> 02:12:47,042
The back of the vehicle
was completely torn to shreds.
1884
02:12:47,209 --> 02:12:51,834
Four dead. I got off with nothing,
except some...
1885
02:12:52,001 --> 02:12:57,459
I was deaf for a while.
But nothing else, physically.
1886
02:12:57,626 --> 02:13:02,584
- And a second time...
- Do you have time to see what's coming?
1887
02:13:02,751 --> 02:13:06,667
No, no, no. It's very quick. Very quick.
1888
02:13:06,834 --> 02:13:11,709
Right away, there was
what we call the "fireball".
1889
02:13:11,876 --> 02:13:15,042
People immediately jumped
out the vehicles,
1890
02:13:15,209 --> 02:13:20,751
and we fired everywhere.
It lasted a few minutes.
1891
02:13:20,917 --> 02:13:23,626
And we picked up the men
who were killed.
1892
02:13:23,792 --> 02:13:27,751
We fought a while,
the guys insulted us. You remember?
1893
02:13:27,917 --> 02:13:31,084
Yeah, but I was on the...
1894
02:13:31,251 --> 02:13:37,376
- I was on the side of... Right.
- On the slope. Going up.
1895
02:13:37,542 --> 02:13:40,959
- And we were at the bottom.
- How did they insult you?
1896
02:13:41,126 --> 02:13:45,417
"Bloody Frenchmen..."
They called us everything.
1897
02:13:45,584 --> 02:13:48,126
- They were screaming, yeah.
- The full list of names.
1898
02:13:48,292 --> 02:13:54,626
- Yeah. They impressed us.
- They were very close.
1899
02:13:54,792 --> 02:13:57,084
But they fought too.
1900
02:13:58,292 --> 02:14:03,376
And we fired for a good while,
and then it became quiet.
1901
02:14:03,542 --> 02:14:06,584
The guys fell back.
1902
02:14:08,459 --> 02:14:13,709
Serge came down without cover.
1903
02:14:14,959 --> 02:14:19,292
- Carelessness got him. Right? Yeah.
- There were five of us.
1904
02:14:19,459 --> 02:14:23,501
They gave the order to fall back,
and when we went back up,
1905
02:14:23,667 --> 02:14:26,501
the five of us were isolated.
1906
02:14:26,667 --> 02:14:29,667
And then, the machine guns
started shooting,
1907
02:14:29,834 --> 02:14:34,876
two of them, which couldn't be too far,
because you could hear them close
1908
02:14:35,042 --> 02:14:37,626
when you know automatic weapons.
1909
02:14:37,792 --> 02:14:41,167
And we were five mates.
1910
02:14:41,334 --> 02:14:45,834
I had gone through sub-officer school,
I was a corporal.
1911
02:14:46,001 --> 02:14:50,626
When I heard the automatic weapons,
I broke from the group,
1912
02:14:50,792 --> 02:14:52,792
thinking.
1913
02:14:52,959 --> 02:14:56,709
If an automatic weapon is fired,
it'll aim at the group, not at me.
1914
02:14:56,876 --> 02:15:02,376
I was mistaken,
that wasn't the scenario.
1915
02:15:02,542 --> 02:15:05,084
He aimed at me and didn't let go.
1916
02:15:05,251 --> 02:15:08,667
Since I heard it close,
1917
02:15:08,834 --> 02:15:12,959
and the impact was close,
I could see them on the ground,
1918
02:15:13,126 --> 02:15:16,459
I saw that I wouldn't run for very long.
1919
02:15:16,626 --> 02:15:20,584
I was caught be the fire,
I was hit and I fell, I rolled.
1920
02:15:20,751 --> 02:15:24,792
You roll, you hear shots,
you hide behind trees,
1921
02:15:24,959 --> 02:15:27,667
it fired. When bullets hit the...
1922
02:15:27,834 --> 02:15:30,751
I was behind a sort of olive tree,
1923
02:15:30,917 --> 02:15:34,417
and when the bullets went through,
wood chips would fall.
1924
02:15:34,584 --> 02:15:40,292
I saw that the guy was adjusting his aim.
1925
02:15:41,417 --> 02:15:43,042
And I saw I had to get out of there.
1926
02:15:43,209 --> 02:15:47,626
I let go, I started going down a little,
1927
02:15:47,792 --> 02:15:50,459
then I heard shots again.
1928
02:15:50,626 --> 02:15:54,876
Then I settled a little further down,
maybe 20 yards.
1929
02:15:55,042 --> 02:16:00,542
I heard laughing,
I heard talking in Algerian.
1930
02:16:00,709 --> 02:16:04,542
I opened my eyes,
there were two Algerians 20 yards away
1931
02:16:04,709 --> 02:16:09,459
as if they were in a hole.
I could only see half of their bodies.
1932
02:16:09,626 --> 02:16:15,417
One was in camouflage, he was firing,
and the other had a black sweater.
1933
02:16:15,584 --> 02:16:20,376
And then I played dead.
1934
02:16:21,667 --> 02:16:24,417
I played dead for an hour and a half.
And I was bleeding to death.
1935
02:16:24,584 --> 02:16:28,542
When I rolled over,
my leg hit me everywhere.
1936
02:16:28,709 --> 02:16:33,334
Because it was all crushed up.
1937
02:16:33,501 --> 02:16:38,542
The mate who came to get me
grabbed me by the hair.
1938
02:16:38,709 --> 02:16:44,459
It woke me up. And I saw
his rifle swinging under my nose.
1939
02:16:44,626 --> 02:16:48,167
He even asked me if I was a Fell.
I said, "Are you crazy,
1940
02:16:48,334 --> 02:16:53,292
I'm in the 4th company,"
he didn't recognize me.
1941
02:16:53,459 --> 02:16:57,251
My face must have been
covered in dirt, blood.
1942
02:16:57,417 --> 02:16:58,959
We ran.
1943
02:17:00,584 --> 02:17:04,584
And we brought Serge back up,
we pulled him. His leg was twisted.
1944
02:17:04,751 --> 02:17:07,167
And we pulled him,
1945
02:17:07,334 --> 02:17:10,417
to get him up there, on the ridge.
1946
02:17:10,584 --> 02:17:11,917
We made it.
1947
02:17:12,084 --> 02:17:18,709
Well, three or four guys climbed with him
to the top.
1948
02:17:18,876 --> 02:17:21,376
Because we had to maintain
cover at the bottom.
1949
02:17:22,459 --> 02:17:24,042
And we stayed as cover.
1950
02:17:24,209 --> 02:17:27,251
But before going back up...
1951
02:17:27,417 --> 02:17:31,209
- They took an hour and a half, to come up.
- They gave the order
1952
02:17:31,376 --> 02:17:35,584
to launch smoke bombs
to show air support where to shoot.
1953
02:17:36,667 --> 02:17:39,084
That's when, if you remember,
1954
02:17:40,209 --> 02:17:46,084
that the smoke bombs fell
on our faces.
1955
02:17:46,251 --> 02:17:48,501
- Yeah, yeah. Now you mention it?
- Remember?
1956
02:17:48,667 --> 02:17:50,792
That's when they pulled you faster,
1957
02:17:50,959 --> 02:17:56,542
and we managed to climb
to not be caught in air support fire.
1958
02:17:56,709 --> 02:17:59,334
I didn't know if I would make it.
1959
02:17:59,501 --> 02:18:03,626
My mates climbed up,
I could hear them breathing.
1960
02:18:03,792 --> 02:18:06,834
They kept the helicopter from leaving,
because they wanted to leave.
1961
02:18:07,001 --> 02:18:11,376
They didn't want to fly at night.
It was getting dark.
1962
02:18:11,542 --> 02:18:14,626
Lucky for me, or I wouldn't be here.
1963
02:18:14,792 --> 02:18:16,292
The helicopter didn't want to wait?
1964
02:18:16,459 --> 02:18:19,209
They wanted to go before nightfall.
1965
02:18:19,376 --> 02:18:21,751
I wasn't the only one,
they must have had other people.
1966
02:18:21,917 --> 02:18:26,251
So they took me
1967
02:18:26,417 --> 02:18:31,376
to Algiers, to the hospital...
Not Algiers, Tizi-Ouzou.
1968
02:18:31,542 --> 02:18:34,417
- I was in Tizi-Ouzou.
- What did you have exactly?
1969
02:18:34,584 --> 02:18:39,209
My leg was crushed to 1.5 feet.
1970
02:18:39,376 --> 02:18:45,042
They finished the cutting. I ended up
1971
02:18:45,209 --> 02:18:46,834
without a leg.
1972
02:18:47,001 --> 02:18:51,209
- You were amputated?
- I was amputated.
1973
02:18:55,001 --> 02:18:56,792
On January 12th.
1974
02:19:23,501 --> 02:19:28,501
I stayed a month there,
after the amputation, before going home.
1975
02:19:28,667 --> 02:19:32,459
Then they put me on a med-evac plane.
1976
02:19:32,626 --> 02:19:36,251
From there, I flew to Desgenettes.
1977
02:19:36,417 --> 02:19:40,251
I arrived in Desgenettes Military Hospital.
1978
02:19:40,417 --> 02:19:43,126
I was in a little chair.
1979
02:19:43,292 --> 02:19:48,876
I still remember when my wife
came to see me.
1980
02:19:49,042 --> 02:19:54,376
I was in a little chair, and when you are
twenty-something years old,
1981
02:19:54,542 --> 02:19:57,417
I wanted to jump through the window.
1982
02:19:57,584 --> 02:20:01,917
How did you find out that your husband
had been wounded and amputated?
1983
02:20:03,751 --> 02:20:09,542
That was the problem,
nobody dared to tell me.
1984
02:20:14,834 --> 02:20:17,209
They didn't because...
1985
02:20:17,376 --> 02:20:21,834
in the meantime, I became depressed.
1986
02:20:22,001 --> 02:20:27,334
And people thought,
"How is she going to take it?"
1987
02:20:27,501 --> 02:20:31,709
I don't know,
it was a little clairvoyant for me
1988
02:20:31,876 --> 02:20:33,459
and...
1989
02:20:33,626 --> 02:20:39,542
I opened the newspaper and I saw,
1990
02:20:39,709 --> 02:20:43,917
"He's twenty years old,
he leaves in one piece,
1991
02:20:44,084 --> 02:20:46,959
and comes back with a missing leg."
1992
02:20:47,126 --> 02:20:52,292
And I don't know... There were
only first names, no last names.
1993
02:20:52,459 --> 02:20:55,626
There were initials, of course.
And I thought...
1994
02:20:55,792 --> 02:20:59,959
But that...
Suddenly I said, that's it, it's...
1995
02:21:03,959 --> 02:21:07,501
- And nobody said anything?
- No.
1996
02:21:07,667 --> 02:21:11,667
Of course, I was told after.
1997
02:21:12,959 --> 02:21:15,876
And you didn't want to write
to your wife
1998
02:21:16,042 --> 02:21:19,584
- that you were wounded?
- Well...
1999
02:21:19,751 --> 02:21:23,667
When it happened
she had to be notified,
2000
02:21:23,834 --> 02:21:26,042
but I didn't want to worry her.
2001
02:21:28,834 --> 02:21:31,959
I told you, when I saw her,
2002
02:21:32,126 --> 02:21:34,584
I wanted to jump out the window.
2003
02:21:34,751 --> 02:21:36,709
It's simple.
2004
02:21:36,876 --> 02:21:38,667
Anyway.
2005
02:21:38,834 --> 02:21:41,334
When I hear him talk about it, it...
2006
02:21:41,501 --> 02:21:44,501
it brings back memories,
2007
02:21:44,667 --> 02:21:46,292
and it's tough.
2008
02:21:48,501 --> 02:21:50,292
No, I never talk about it.
2009
02:21:50,459 --> 02:21:53,042
People see me like this, with my pants,
2010
02:21:53,209 --> 02:21:55,876
they think I live like everyone else.
That's not true.
2011
02:21:56,042 --> 02:21:59,334
I told you it was a burden. It's true.
2012
02:21:59,501 --> 02:22:01,167
At the beach, I can't swim.
2013
02:22:01,334 --> 02:22:04,584
Or I have to drag myself
like a crab on the sand.
2014
02:22:04,751 --> 02:22:08,084
I can't go to the mountains, nothing.
2015
02:22:08,251 --> 02:22:11,834
I tried caves, it's impossible.
2016
02:22:12,001 --> 02:22:14,292
I can't do anything.
2017
02:22:14,459 --> 02:22:18,084
- That war ruined your life.
- Yes, affirmative.
2018
02:22:19,417 --> 02:22:22,334
It did, yes.
2019
02:22:22,501 --> 02:22:25,251
I'd like to say,
I don't mean to interrupt but...
2020
02:22:25,417 --> 02:22:28,667
For us, the Algerian War, it's every day.
2021
02:22:28,834 --> 02:22:31,542
- No.
- It's not once a year,
2022
02:22:31,709 --> 02:22:36,001
like I see the memorial etc.
Maybe we're not there
2023
02:22:36,167 --> 02:22:38,751
on March 19th, but...
2024
02:22:38,917 --> 02:22:42,167
For us, the Algerian War, it's every day.
2025
02:22:43,501 --> 02:22:46,417
When he has to put on his prosthetic leg,
when summer comes
2026
02:22:46,584 --> 02:22:48,959
and he's hot and can't walk.
2027
02:22:49,126 --> 02:22:53,792
Well, people who have
a prosthetic limb know the problem but...
2028
02:22:55,167 --> 02:23:00,417
And the person who is with them,
I'm not complaining, you also live
2029
02:23:00,584 --> 02:23:04,126
without one leg. That's it.
2030
02:23:06,209 --> 02:23:08,001
Sub-lieutenant Arnaud, Jean.
2031
02:23:08,167 --> 02:23:10,542
Sergeant Perrier, Maurice,
2032
02:23:10,709 --> 02:23:13,126
Corporal Leoni, Jacques,
2033
02:23:13,292 --> 02:23:15,126
Infantrymen Garnier, Jacky,
2034
02:23:15,292 --> 02:23:16,501
Couroumian, Paul.
2035
02:23:16,667 --> 02:23:20,376
Trollan, Roger. Cranier, Robert.
Lasserre, Roger.
2036
02:23:20,542 --> 02:23:23,917
Veterans of the section are glad
to take this opportunity
2037
02:23:24,084 --> 02:23:30,501
to share with their family and friends
their affectionate thoughts.
2038
02:23:30,667 --> 02:23:33,459
Corporal Jean-Claude Schwabe.
2039
02:23:33,626 --> 02:23:37,667
I'm sending love to my fiancée
and my family. I'm well. Jean-Claude.
2040
02:23:39,709 --> 02:23:42,751
This is Robin. All is well.
2041
02:23:42,917 --> 02:23:47,292
Hello to all my mates in AFN.
And much love to my fiancée,
2042
02:23:47,459 --> 02:23:48,751
my parents, and my friends.
2043
02:23:49,751 --> 02:23:53,959
Corporal Cros,
3rd company SP 88106.
2044
02:23:54,126 --> 02:23:56,459
Jeanine, darling,
sending you a sweet kiss,
2045
02:23:56,626 --> 02:23:59,126
and I'm asking you to have courage
2046
02:23:59,292 --> 02:24:02,167
to stand the days remaining...
2047
02:24:02,334 --> 02:24:07,459
Outside of operations,
what was the life of a draftee like?
2048
02:24:07,626 --> 02:24:12,001
I think it was monotonous and boring.
2049
02:24:15,459 --> 02:24:18,126
When we were not on mission,
we were stuck
2050
02:24:18,292 --> 02:24:22,542
in a few thousand square-feet refuge,
2051
02:24:22,709 --> 02:24:25,417
and we did nothing.
2052
02:24:25,584 --> 02:24:32,376
At least, I listened to the radio,
I kept myself busy.
2053
02:24:32,542 --> 02:24:37,417
We'd hang out. We'd play cards.
2054
02:24:37,584 --> 02:24:41,876
We played French tarot.
2055
02:24:42,042 --> 02:24:44,584
We ate, slept, and played cards.
2056
02:24:44,751 --> 02:24:47,834
This picture was taken in January.
2057
02:24:48,001 --> 02:24:52,584
We had about
up to 30-35 inches of snow
2058
02:24:52,751 --> 02:24:55,209
for about one month,
one month and a half.
2059
02:24:55,376 --> 02:24:58,667
We were stuck for days.
2060
02:24:58,834 --> 02:25:01,459
There was no military action.
2061
02:25:01,626 --> 02:25:05,001
Everyone stayed in their tent.
2062
02:25:05,167 --> 02:25:07,126
Tarot games never ended.
2063
02:25:07,292 --> 02:25:09,709
They started at 8 a.m.,
and finished at 2 a.m.
2064
02:25:09,876 --> 02:25:15,542
And really, we felt we were living
like convicts at this post,
2065
02:25:15,709 --> 02:25:17,417
waiting for days to pass,
2066
02:25:17,584 --> 02:25:19,792
the months, waiting to be freed.
2067
02:25:19,959 --> 02:25:21,709
You needed outlets.
2068
02:25:21,876 --> 02:25:24,917
We didn't practice sports, we couldn't.
2069
02:25:25,084 --> 02:25:26,667
So I had an idea.
2070
02:25:26,834 --> 02:25:29,417
We had cables since we worked
in a power station.
2071
02:25:29,584 --> 02:25:31,542
The cable contained a lead sheath.
2072
02:25:31,709 --> 02:25:36,334
We took the lead out,
we made wooden molds,
2073
02:25:36,501 --> 02:25:40,334
we poured in it with tubes, we made bars.
2074
02:25:40,501 --> 02:25:45,167
At the time there were many ads
for bodybuilding.
2075
02:25:45,334 --> 02:25:49,292
I don't remember
if it was Robert Duranton.
2076
02:25:49,459 --> 02:25:51,501
I remember because he was in Monaco...
2077
02:25:51,667 --> 02:25:55,417
And we bought a bodybuilding class
via mail,
2078
02:25:55,584 --> 02:25:57,834
and we made weights with the lead,
2079
02:25:58,001 --> 02:26:01,042
and the entire team had to do it,
but it was a pleasure.
2080
02:26:01,209 --> 02:26:03,376
We did it on the roof.
2081
02:26:03,542 --> 02:26:06,917
Everyday people did their
15 or 30 minutes.
2082
02:26:07,084 --> 02:26:09,542
Simply in order to keep
the boys' spirits up.
2083
02:26:09,709 --> 02:26:12,417
It was the Far West,
2084
02:26:12,584 --> 02:26:17,959
because when we went
to Guelma, Bône, etc.
2085
02:26:18,126 --> 02:26:19,709
We'd have a drink.
2086
02:26:19,876 --> 02:26:22,959
We had to pick a bar with grilled windows.
2087
02:26:23,126 --> 02:26:24,334
- French?
- No, no, no.
2088
02:26:24,501 --> 02:26:27,876
No, no, no. We'd go to
2089
02:26:28,042 --> 02:26:32,834
the Arabs as well as to the natives...
The ethnically French.
2090
02:26:33,001 --> 02:26:36,709
It didn't bother us.
But the gun was on the counter,
2091
02:26:36,876 --> 02:26:38,292
always with its chain.
2092
02:26:38,459 --> 02:26:40,542
We'd pour the anisette, etc.
2093
02:26:40,709 --> 02:26:45,917
We got used to avoid having
a window behind us, if possible.
2094
02:26:46,084 --> 02:26:48,042
The entrances were grilled.
2095
02:26:48,209 --> 02:26:51,126
The road to the villages
had double bends everywhere.
2096
02:26:51,292 --> 02:26:55,751
What we did depended on the person.
Some...
2097
02:26:55,917 --> 02:27:01,084
I think Kronenbourg was their go-to.
2098
02:27:01,251 --> 02:27:04,834
Beer was really a great fuel
2099
02:27:05,001 --> 02:27:09,126
because some would drink
really a lot of it.
2100
02:27:09,292 --> 02:27:11,376
Ten, twenty, thirty beers a day
was common.
2101
02:27:11,542 --> 02:27:17,751
The few weeks I spent with the legion
were completely crazy
2102
02:27:17,917 --> 02:27:22,001
because to join the coast,
we went to Bône for supplies,
2103
02:27:22,167 --> 02:27:24,251
or maybe to Constantine.
2104
02:27:24,417 --> 02:27:26,459
And some sections on the road were hard,
2105
02:27:26,626 --> 02:27:30,334
we had to be escorted through
the gorges of El Kantara,
2106
02:27:30,501 --> 02:27:33,792
and they just went to get
truckloads of beer.
2107
02:27:33,959 --> 02:27:38,584
They drank when they went on mission,
they drank when they returned,
2108
02:27:38,751 --> 02:27:42,542
and they drank when they didn't go.
2109
02:27:42,709 --> 02:27:46,084
- Officers too?
- They did too.
2110
02:27:46,251 --> 02:27:47,792
Especially the career officers.
2111
02:27:47,959 --> 02:27:51,584
What helps? I think...
2112
02:27:51,751 --> 02:27:55,751
When you've tried everything possible
2113
02:27:57,001 --> 02:28:00,084
to talk to people, to try to...
2114
02:28:00,251 --> 02:28:04,292
to feel like you're changing them a little,
2115
02:28:04,459 --> 02:28:07,834
after that, you take refuge
in your own head.
2116
02:28:08,001 --> 02:28:12,501
Books were very important for me.
2117
02:28:12,667 --> 02:28:15,876
That's when I started to buy books
in the Pléiade collection,
2118
02:28:16,042 --> 02:28:17,209
because it was smaller.
2119
02:28:17,376 --> 02:28:19,126
- What did you read?
- In bags.
2120
02:28:19,292 --> 02:28:25,292
There were two very important authors.
2121
02:28:25,501 --> 02:28:28,042
The Thibaults, by Martin du Gard,
2122
02:28:28,209 --> 02:28:33,251
and Proust, because might as well
bring a good chunk.
2123
02:28:33,417 --> 02:28:37,292
There was a sort of inescapability
of the passage of time.
2124
02:29:13,542 --> 02:29:16,167
I preferred being on a mission
than staying in camp.
2125
02:29:16,334 --> 02:29:21,084
- We had a box of rations.
- Some rations were not bad.
2126
02:29:21,251 --> 02:29:26,084
I liked the Muslim ones.
They were the best. They had sardines.
2127
02:29:26,251 --> 02:29:28,709
Sardines, but no pâté.
2128
02:29:29,792 --> 02:29:31,501
- There was one chocolate...
- They were...
2129
02:29:31,667 --> 02:29:33,334
Yes, they were made after.
2130
02:29:33,501 --> 02:29:35,834
After the European ones.
2131
02:29:36,001 --> 02:29:38,292
European rations were from WWI.
2132
02:29:38,459 --> 02:29:40,417
Not WWI, Indochina.
2133
02:29:40,584 --> 02:29:41,584
Indochina.
2134
02:29:41,751 --> 02:29:43,542
It was disgusting.
2135
02:29:43,709 --> 02:29:46,709
It was even medically disgusting.
2136
02:29:46,876 --> 02:29:49,667
Disgusting in terms of taste,
disgusting
2137
02:29:49,834 --> 02:29:53,792
in terms of content,
disgusting in medical terms.
2138
02:29:53,959 --> 02:29:56,959
The inside of the cigarettes
were completely rotten.
2139
02:29:57,126 --> 02:29:58,917
They were foam.
2140
02:29:59,084 --> 02:30:02,251
The liquor bottle.
2141
02:30:02,417 --> 02:30:05,626
- It was jet fuel.
- It was jet fuel.
2142
02:30:05,792 --> 02:30:09,709
Good for a mouth wash.
But you couldn't swallow it.
2143
02:30:09,876 --> 02:30:11,876
It was good for cavities.
2144
02:30:12,042 --> 02:30:15,959
When we saw the wine coming
and were told to fill all the flasks,
2145
02:30:16,126 --> 02:30:18,334
we knew that night,
2146
02:30:18,501 --> 02:30:21,292
or two hours later,
we were going on a mission.
2147
02:30:21,459 --> 02:30:26,542
It was wine that had been frozen
and put back in...
2148
02:30:26,709 --> 02:30:29,709
Then with the...
2149
02:30:29,876 --> 02:30:32,792
And let's not forget the bromide,
2150
02:30:32,959 --> 02:30:35,001
it tasted delicious.
2151
02:30:35,167 --> 02:30:38,542
That's a myth.
They never put bromide
2152
02:30:38,709 --> 02:30:40,709
in the wine.
We didn't have wine anyway.
2153
02:30:40,876 --> 02:30:43,626
And we went out sometimes.
2154
02:30:43,792 --> 02:30:45,667
We hunted hogs.
2155
02:30:45,834 --> 02:30:47,584
They didn't hunt it over there.
2156
02:30:47,751 --> 02:30:51,626
When we could get fresh meat,
we'd go for it.
2157
02:30:51,792 --> 02:30:54,167
When we went on mission,
2158
02:30:54,334 --> 02:30:58,709
we came across entire herds
in the forbidden zones.
2159
02:30:58,876 --> 02:31:01,917
So the cows, the sheep...
2160
02:31:03,167 --> 02:31:07,751
And most of the time
chickens in huts.
2161
02:31:07,917 --> 02:31:11,001
We took a chicken here and there.
And we managed...
2162
02:31:11,167 --> 02:31:14,709
- Did you pay for them?
- Absolutely not.
2163
02:31:14,876 --> 02:31:16,584
I never paid.
2164
02:31:17,959 --> 02:31:21,834
They were in the forbidden zone,
not supposed to be there,
2165
02:31:22,001 --> 02:31:24,917
so we systematically took them.
2166
02:31:26,251 --> 02:31:28,417
- And you made your little...
- Yeah.
2167
02:31:28,584 --> 02:31:31,667
That was the only way
we could eat properly.
2168
02:31:31,834 --> 02:31:36,917
The rations at that time
were even worse than today.
2169
02:31:37,084 --> 02:31:40,542
When there were parties,
we were invited
2170
02:31:40,709 --> 02:31:44,667
by the douar chief,
who was the equivalent of a mayor,
2171
02:31:44,834 --> 02:31:48,709
and we'd share a meshoui or a shorba,
2172
02:31:48,876 --> 02:31:52,834
a kind of soup
with big vegetables inside.
2173
02:31:53,001 --> 02:31:58,334
But one thing I forget
is whether I ate salad in Algeria.
2174
02:31:58,501 --> 02:32:01,542
I always wondered.
I know we ate meat
2175
02:32:01,709 --> 02:32:03,917
- and steaks...
- You maybe?
2176
02:32:04,084 --> 02:32:06,417
- But salad...
- Because Michelet was close.
2177
02:32:06,584 --> 02:32:10,209
- Dandelion. They brought it up.
- It's not...
2178
02:32:10,376 --> 02:32:12,751
It was a kind of thistle,
2179
02:32:12,917 --> 02:32:15,792
but the thorns didn't sting,
they were like hair.
2180
02:32:15,959 --> 02:32:19,334
We saw Kabyles eating it,
2181
02:32:19,501 --> 02:32:21,251
and we picked some.
2182
02:32:21,417 --> 02:32:26,167
We ate it raw with a sauce or cooked.
2183
02:32:28,042 --> 02:32:31,709
How did you cope with
the absence of women?
2184
02:32:31,876 --> 02:32:34,459
Let's says that when we came into town...
2185
02:32:34,626 --> 02:32:39,917
We shouldn't say because
we are married, I was at the time.
2186
02:32:40,084 --> 02:32:43,376
Own it, we were support.
So brothels were for us,
2187
02:32:43,542 --> 02:32:46,376
and that's it. We're men, that's it.
2188
02:32:46,542 --> 02:32:52,001
After a while, sexual desire
would subside, it's true.
2189
02:32:52,167 --> 02:32:55,959
Isolation... Anxiety, maybe.
2190
02:32:56,126 --> 02:33:01,084
I've never seen someone,
when I talked to the men,
2191
02:33:01,251 --> 02:33:04,334
with difficulties on that level,
sexual desire.
2192
02:33:04,501 --> 02:33:08,667
- Did you see the infamous MCB's?
- Once.
2193
02:33:08,834 --> 02:33:13,251
There were mostly catering
to the active-duty personnel,
2194
02:33:13,417 --> 02:33:15,667
the soldiers,
2195
02:33:15,834 --> 02:33:19,751
and more precisely,
to the Legion.
2196
02:33:19,917 --> 02:33:23,542
There was a series of important missions
in the area,
2197
02:33:23,709 --> 02:33:25,334
and I saw the...
2198
02:33:25,501 --> 02:33:30,376
the GMC's, covered trucks, closed,
2199
02:33:30,542 --> 02:33:33,834
that were called MCB's,
so they were MCB GMC's.
2200
02:33:34,001 --> 02:33:37,459
Two regiments had the authorization.
2201
02:33:37,626 --> 02:33:41,334
The Legion and the Algerian infantry.
2202
02:33:41,501 --> 02:33:44,292
We also had Algerian infantrymen.
2203
02:33:44,459 --> 02:33:47,584
They were the only regiments
who had the authorization
2204
02:33:47,751 --> 02:33:51,084
from the ministry of armies.
2205
02:33:51,251 --> 02:33:56,001
- How did it work?
- When they came back from mission?
2206
02:33:56,167 --> 02:33:59,417
The first thing was to have a Kronenbourg,
2207
02:33:59,584 --> 02:34:01,459
and then
2208
02:34:01,626 --> 02:34:08,167
the medic took out his table,
2209
02:34:08,334 --> 02:34:12,459
he had the guys' names,
he took everything out.
2210
02:34:12,626 --> 02:34:16,001
He looked and said,
"Alright, you can go."
2211
02:34:16,167 --> 02:34:20,584
He got into the truck
and did what he had to do.
2212
02:34:21,917 --> 02:34:27,001
This is a picture of the MCB truck,
for Military Campaign Brothel,
2213
02:34:27,167 --> 02:34:30,209
where there were four Muslim women
2214
02:34:30,376 --> 02:34:33,001
and six European women,
2215
02:34:33,167 --> 02:34:35,334
who followed us on missions.
2216
02:34:35,501 --> 02:34:39,834
- For how many men?
- Imagine.
2217
02:34:40,001 --> 02:34:42,542
It was seven francs.
2218
02:34:42,709 --> 02:34:45,042
Five to seven francs.
2219
02:34:45,209 --> 02:34:46,876
They really turned tricks.
2220
02:34:47,042 --> 02:34:49,834
For a little extra,
it was more expensive.
2221
02:34:50,001 --> 02:34:52,251
Coming out we were completely broke.
2222
02:34:59,084 --> 02:35:02,417
We are here in the headquarters
of the National Veterans' Union,
2223
02:35:02,584 --> 02:35:04,917
created in 1917,
2224
02:35:05,084 --> 02:35:07,292
and the National Veterans' Union
in North Africa,
2225
02:35:07,459 --> 02:35:09,251
since 1957.
2226
02:35:09,417 --> 02:35:13,917
I have a few friends with me.
For example, my friend Remli,
2227
02:35:14,084 --> 02:35:19,376
who did the Algerian campaign,
and then was held six years
2228
02:35:19,542 --> 02:35:21,834
in the FLN jails.
2229
02:35:22,001 --> 02:35:26,167
He was freed by friends from Grenoble.
He has been with us
2230
02:35:26,334 --> 02:35:29,209
since he came back to France.
2231
02:35:29,376 --> 02:35:33,209
- Do you want to introduce yourself?
- I'm the president of D7-Io.
2232
02:35:33,376 --> 02:35:39,042
I've been taking care of veterans
from Algeria for ten years.
2233
02:35:39,209 --> 02:35:42,209
And I live in Tencin.
2234
02:35:42,376 --> 02:35:44,501
I have the entire département,
2235
02:35:44,667 --> 02:35:50,542
Crolles, Froges, Champ-près-Froges,
and Tencin.
2236
02:35:50,709 --> 02:35:53,251
- An Indochina veteran.
- Were you drafted?
2237
02:35:53,417 --> 02:35:56,792
- No, I'm a Vietnam veteran.
- Right.
2238
02:35:56,959 --> 02:35:59,792
- Go ahead.
- Louis Metter, born in Bône
2239
02:35:59,959 --> 02:36:03,417
in the former French département...
2240
02:36:03,584 --> 02:36:05,459
of Constantine. Yes, alright.
2241
02:36:06,459 --> 02:36:09,042
I was re-drafted,
2242
02:36:09,209 --> 02:36:11,001
for law enforcement missions
2243
02:36:11,167 --> 02:36:13,542
from April 1st, 1955,
2244
02:36:13,709 --> 02:36:16,084
to the 30th of...
2245
02:36:16,251 --> 02:36:18,084
No, I got it wrong.
2246
02:36:18,251 --> 02:36:21,709
From October 1st, 1955,
2247
02:36:21,876 --> 02:36:25,376
to May 30th, 1956.
2248
02:36:25,542 --> 02:36:29,584
And I'm currently vice president
of the UNCFN.
2249
02:36:29,751 --> 02:36:31,834
And recipient of the Combatants' Cross.
2250
02:36:32,001 --> 02:36:34,459
- And our friend.
- My name is Arsène Coital.
2251
02:36:34,626 --> 02:36:36,209
I live in Grenoble, of course.
2252
02:36:36,376 --> 02:36:39,626
A veteran from North Africa
from the 7th RTM,
2253
02:36:39,792 --> 02:36:41,584
7th company.
2254
02:36:41,751 --> 02:36:44,626
A draftee, like many others.
2255
02:36:44,792 --> 02:36:46,042
Good.
2256
02:36:46,209 --> 02:36:49,459
I want to bring to your attention
2257
02:36:49,626 --> 02:36:52,459
a few interesting aspects
of this meeting room.
2258
02:36:52,626 --> 02:36:56,334
You have the NVU's flags behind...
2259
02:36:56,501 --> 02:36:59,417
our friend Arsène. But also here,
2260
02:36:59,584 --> 02:37:03,042
and this was placed like this
deliberately, it's symbolic.
2261
02:37:03,209 --> 02:37:10,167
You see a German helmet taken
in '45 in the Nice area.
2262
02:37:10,334 --> 02:37:13,417
And here, you see the remains
of a house
2263
02:37:13,584 --> 02:37:17,917
the Germans burnt in Vercors
during the '40-'45 war.
2264
02:37:18,084 --> 02:37:22,209
You also have our prestigious patrons,
Clémenceau,
2265
02:37:22,376 --> 02:37:26,001
and Reverend Pierre Brottier,
who in 1917,
2266
02:37:26,167 --> 02:37:29,084
built the National Veterans' Union.
2267
02:37:29,251 --> 02:37:32,417
Then you have, up here on the wall,
2268
02:37:32,584 --> 02:37:36,084
a few hats that are important to us,
2269
02:37:36,251 --> 02:37:40,334
each of them being a memory.
Here's my hat.
2270
02:37:40,501 --> 02:37:44,501
And you can see the most
emotionally valuable thing,
2271
02:37:44,667 --> 02:37:49,126
my father's helmet, 1914,
exactly in the middle of the French flag,
2272
02:37:49,292 --> 02:37:51,209
right above the white part.
2273
02:37:51,376 --> 02:37:54,542
Here's how I can present
the National Veterans' Union.
2274
02:37:54,709 --> 02:37:57,626
And now, if you'll allow me,
let's perhaps talk about
2275
02:37:57,792 --> 02:38:01,251
the problems bringing us here,
that is to say, Algeria.
2276
02:38:01,417 --> 02:38:05,417
When you were called
to serve in Algeria
2277
02:38:05,584 --> 02:38:07,751
in 1958, you were 27...
2278
02:38:07,917 --> 02:38:10,042
- Absolutely.
- You were a Gaullist at the time.
2279
02:38:10,209 --> 02:38:13,334
I'm not at all a Gaullist.
I've never followed man or party.
2280
02:38:13,501 --> 02:38:15,834
I'm proud of it.
I thought at the time
2281
02:38:16,001 --> 02:38:19,584
that I'd follow Gaullists,
2282
02:38:19,751 --> 02:38:22,084
because it was
the only recourse at that time.
2283
02:38:22,251 --> 02:38:26,751
- For you, de Gaulle was French Algeria?
- That's what he said.
2284
02:38:26,917 --> 02:38:30,417
So you went there to defend and save
French Algeria.
2285
02:38:30,584 --> 02:38:33,459
Save, no. I won't save Algeria.
2286
02:38:33,626 --> 02:38:36,251
But to help,
2287
02:38:36,417 --> 02:38:39,417
help the French people there,
the ones who think like me,
2288
02:38:39,584 --> 02:38:42,084
to keep a French département
2289
02:38:42,251 --> 02:38:45,584
in France, why? Because it's
in the Constitution, among other things.
2290
02:38:45,751 --> 02:38:49,042
Can you explain what the SAS were,
and what their missions were?
2291
02:38:49,209 --> 02:38:50,834
So...
2292
02:38:51,001 --> 02:38:55,709
It's huge.
That's why I jotted down some thoughts.
2293
02:38:55,876 --> 02:38:57,542
We had several hats.
2294
02:38:57,709 --> 02:39:01,584
First, I was a village chief.
And I had 18 villages
2295
02:39:01,751 --> 02:39:03,084
under my command.
2296
02:39:03,251 --> 02:39:07,959
In this village, Chouabet,
my command post, I had 437 residents.
2297
02:39:08,126 --> 02:39:12,001
I was the military representative,
I was an officer,
2298
02:39:12,167 --> 02:39:14,626
and in that respect, I tried
2299
02:39:14,792 --> 02:39:18,084
to guarantee the villagers' security.
2300
02:39:18,251 --> 02:39:22,334
For Harkis, families...
2301
02:39:22,501 --> 02:39:25,667
The Harkis were here...
The Moghaznis, they was called,
2302
02:39:25,834 --> 02:39:30,376
were here to help me,
and defend a territory.
2303
02:39:30,542 --> 02:39:33,501
I was also the prefect's deputy.
2304
02:39:33,667 --> 02:39:40,667
I was in charge of the administration,
of the community.
2305
02:39:40,834 --> 02:39:46,792
I did official documents, passes,
I recorded births,
2306
02:39:46,959 --> 02:39:49,417
and sadly, deaths.
2307
02:39:49,584 --> 02:39:51,376
And third,
2308
02:39:51,542 --> 02:39:55,292
I provided free medical aid,
every day,
2309
02:39:55,459 --> 02:39:57,667
to treat people who needed it.
2310
02:39:57,834 --> 02:39:59,334
One interesting thing,
2311
02:39:59,501 --> 02:40:05,292
this area hadn't seen a Frenchman
before '54 or '55, something like that.
2312
02:40:05,459 --> 02:40:08,167
It was a remote area, wild.
2313
02:40:08,334 --> 02:40:11,834
Algeria is a country
that is under-colonized.
2314
02:40:12,001 --> 02:40:13,459
There was not enough...
2315
02:40:13,626 --> 02:40:18,917
The French administration never
stepped up to what it should have been.
2316
02:40:19,084 --> 02:40:25,709
You couldn't ask people
to go to these remote villages,
2317
02:40:25,876 --> 02:40:30,167
like Outed Aissa or Chaoubet.
You had to be crazy to settle there.
2318
02:40:30,334 --> 02:40:33,126
- You traveled there?
- Yes, I stayed eight days.
2319
02:40:33,292 --> 02:40:35,626
I had all the water I wanted,
meaning that
2320
02:40:35,792 --> 02:40:40,751
at my husband's post,
it was raining through the roof.
2321
02:40:40,917 --> 02:40:46,126
And I was separated from the Moghaznis
only by a tarp.
2322
02:40:46,292 --> 02:40:50,751
When they saw hygiene,
when they saw we treated them,
2323
02:40:50,917 --> 02:40:55,417
when they saw, and my friend Sikirdji
could say it,
2324
02:40:55,584 --> 02:40:58,376
we gave them a shot to have children,
2325
02:40:58,542 --> 02:41:02,126
meaning a little antibiotic
allowing the woman
2326
02:41:02,292 --> 02:41:05,501
to be fertile, to be fertilized,
to have a child.
2327
02:41:05,667 --> 02:41:07,042
When they got all this,
2328
02:41:07,209 --> 02:41:10,542
when they saw the progress
we could bring to them,
2329
02:41:10,709 --> 02:41:13,126
they really agreed to be with us,
2330
02:41:13,292 --> 02:41:15,542
and to live with us.
2331
02:41:15,709 --> 02:41:19,792
This is the only time my wife came.
2332
02:41:19,959 --> 02:41:22,751
She was about to attend
2333
02:41:22,917 --> 02:41:26,042
a milk distribution
for the children of the school.
2334
02:41:26,209 --> 02:41:30,334
I don't know one nation
that did what we did in Algeria.
2335
02:41:30,501 --> 02:41:33,501
Build hospitals, roads, schools.
2336
02:41:33,667 --> 02:41:36,417
Imagine, in my husband's village,
2337
02:41:36,584 --> 02:41:40,667
in '57, they didn't know what soap was.
The first time they saw it, they ate it.
2338
02:41:40,834 --> 02:41:43,751
This is an indictment against
French presence there...
2339
02:41:43,917 --> 02:41:47,459
No, it wasn't against
the French presence,
2340
02:41:47,626 --> 02:41:49,792
against the French governments,
2341
02:41:49,959 --> 02:41:51,792
the French administration.
2342
02:41:51,959 --> 02:41:55,376
This is quite interesting,
I'd like people to see it.
2343
02:41:55,542 --> 02:41:59,042
We re-did an entire village
2344
02:41:59,209 --> 02:42:02,417
in brick and mortar, when often
2345
02:42:02,584 --> 02:42:05,667
the huts were like this.
2346
02:42:05,834 --> 02:42:09,542
It was something very primitive.
2347
02:42:09,709 --> 02:42:13,126
And how did the ALN incursions
2348
02:42:13,292 --> 02:42:15,792
- manifest itself in your sector?
- The ALN would
2349
02:42:15,959 --> 02:42:18,334
come through the north,
2350
02:42:18,501 --> 02:42:21,834
but not always,
it would have been too simple,
2351
02:42:22,001 --> 02:42:24,042
and they robbed the villagers.
2352
02:42:24,209 --> 02:42:25,917
Sometimes they attacked us at night.
2353
02:42:26,084 --> 02:42:29,251
They did it a couple of times,
not often, because
2354
02:42:29,417 --> 02:42:33,792
our Harkis and our Moghaznis
were extraordinary.
2355
02:42:33,959 --> 02:42:38,584
They were faithful by heart
and with a weapon as well.
2356
02:42:38,751 --> 02:42:41,501
And they were French in their own right,
2357
02:42:41,667 --> 02:42:45,084
and twice, because they were
from a French territory,
2358
02:42:45,251 --> 02:42:47,209
and also by the blood lost,
like the Legion.
2359
02:42:47,376 --> 02:42:50,667
Between 1956 and 1962,
2360
02:42:50,834 --> 02:42:57,376
in SAS's, we lost 73 officers,
I'm not talking about the wounded.
2361
02:42:57,542 --> 02:43:00,417
Seventy-three officers, 33 sub-officers,
2362
02:43:00,584 --> 02:43:04,292
forty-two civilian attachés,
and 612 Moghaznis.
2363
02:43:04,459 --> 02:43:08,792
You can see shooting practice.
2364
02:43:08,959 --> 02:43:12,334
They had to be trained,
especially because
2365
02:43:12,501 --> 02:43:17,959
their weapons were all over the place.
They had WWI Lebels, rifles seized
2366
02:43:18,126 --> 02:43:22,501
during the boarding of the Athos.
2367
02:43:22,667 --> 02:43:27,626
And there were French weapons,
like the latest French machine-gun.
2368
02:43:27,792 --> 02:43:31,584
Did you have to deal with prisoners
from the ALN, wounded men?
2369
02:43:31,751 --> 02:43:33,459
Absolutely. In my second SAS,
2370
02:43:33,626 --> 02:43:37,001
among others, I had ALN prisoners.
Including a warrant officer,
2371
02:43:37,167 --> 02:43:38,626
from the FLN,
2372
02:43:38,792 --> 02:43:43,376
and I asked him how one becomes one,
and he explained.
2373
02:43:43,542 --> 02:43:46,709
You had to kill quite a few Frenchmen
before getting there.
2374
02:43:46,876 --> 02:43:49,709
What did you do with the prisoners?
2375
02:43:49,876 --> 02:43:53,917
Well, we went on our mission with them,
so they'd show us
2376
02:43:54,084 --> 02:43:57,334
where FLN hideouts were.
2377
02:43:57,501 --> 02:44:00,376
- They did it willingly?
- Absolutely.
2378
02:44:01,584 --> 02:44:05,084
Because there was no nationalism,
that was not true.
2379
02:44:05,251 --> 02:44:08,751
- An ALN prisoner was easily flipped?
- Absolutely.
2380
02:44:08,917 --> 02:44:12,251
In my second SAS, I saw a Harka,
2381
02:44:12,417 --> 02:44:15,834
only composed of former FLN prisoners,
2382
02:44:16,001 --> 02:44:18,542
who were fiercely pro-French,
2383
02:44:18,709 --> 02:44:22,126
and who were great fighters
against the FLN.
2384
02:44:22,292 --> 02:44:24,709
Did you have respect
for ALN combatants?
2385
02:44:24,876 --> 02:44:29,376
Absolutely. That warrant officer,
although he told me how he became one,
2386
02:44:29,542 --> 02:44:31,792
I didn't mistreat him or anything.
2387
02:44:31,959 --> 02:44:35,209
I used him,
he came with me on a mission.
2388
02:44:35,376 --> 02:44:38,626
He came back alive, believe me.
2389
02:44:38,792 --> 02:44:43,001
And I delivered him to... at the time,
Camp du Maréchal.
2390
02:44:43,167 --> 02:44:47,584
When I left my first village, people...
The men, not the women.
2391
02:44:47,751 --> 02:44:50,459
Women would go whoo, that's it.
2392
02:44:50,626 --> 02:44:55,376
But the men ran after my Jeep screaming,
because they didn't want me to leave.
2393
02:44:55,542 --> 02:44:58,334
- You had a great rapport with them.
- Absolutely.
2394
02:44:59,376 --> 02:45:03,042
I set up a morish café,
they hadn't had any for a while,
2395
02:45:03,209 --> 02:45:08,001
I relaunched weaving activities,
pottery,
2396
02:45:08,167 --> 02:45:10,792
in the village.
It was starting to become...
2397
02:45:10,959 --> 02:45:16,917
not autonomous, but it was beginning
to improve on every level.
2398
02:45:17,084 --> 02:45:19,334
And people were asking for it.
2399
02:45:19,501 --> 02:45:22,626
Were you tempted to go back?
2400
02:45:22,792 --> 02:45:25,209
Yes, I was asked to.
2401
02:45:25,376 --> 02:45:29,292
They were giving me
the most beautiful SAS
2402
02:45:29,459 --> 02:45:31,084
east of my position, which was great.
2403
02:45:31,251 --> 02:45:35,376
The colonel strongly asked me
2404
02:45:35,542 --> 02:45:37,917
to stay in SAS's
2405
02:45:38,084 --> 02:45:42,417
since I was interested and successful
across the board.
2406
02:45:42,584 --> 02:45:48,584
I answered,
"Sir, will Algeria stay French?"
2407
02:45:48,751 --> 02:45:53,417
That's when he lowered his head
and didn't answer.
2408
02:45:53,584 --> 02:45:57,542
The conversation ended on that silence.
2409
02:45:57,709 --> 02:46:00,876
- How did it go with Pieds-Noirs?
- Badly.
2410
02:46:01,042 --> 02:46:04,959
We couldn't stand them.
2411
02:46:05,126 --> 02:46:06,751
Couldn't stand them.
2412
02:46:09,376 --> 02:46:13,626
We were there because of them.
2413
02:46:13,792 --> 02:46:16,501
A very good relationship.
I could relate
2414
02:46:16,667 --> 02:46:20,084
to these people,
their way of life.
2415
02:46:20,251 --> 02:46:23,792
Well, if you spent too much time
with their daughters,
2416
02:46:23,959 --> 02:46:26,542
they wanted to make you marry them.
2417
02:46:27,667 --> 02:46:30,501
But apart from that,
the relationship was great.
2418
02:46:30,667 --> 02:46:33,876
They were happy you were there,
obviously.
2419
02:46:36,876 --> 02:46:38,251
Yes...
2420
02:46:38,417 --> 02:46:42,042
Yes, they were happy,
but not so much towards the end.
2421
02:46:42,209 --> 02:46:45,626
Because when they felt
we were getting out of there,
2422
02:46:45,792 --> 02:46:50,001
they didn't like draftees so much.
2423
02:46:50,167 --> 02:46:56,251
The colons enjoyed inviting,
on Sundays mostly,
2424
02:46:56,417 --> 02:47:02,251
the officers, the young officers we were,
to maybe marry off their daughters.
2425
02:47:02,417 --> 02:47:05,626
But we'd meet at the church choir,
2426
02:47:05,792 --> 02:47:09,709
on Sundays,
and they invited us to lunch.
2427
02:47:09,876 --> 02:47:13,751
Saturday and Sunday we'd go on patrols,
2428
02:47:13,917 --> 02:47:17,251
so the Europeans could ski
2429
02:47:18,501 --> 02:47:24,126
on the mountain.
There was a ski slope behind
2430
02:47:24,292 --> 02:47:28,167
the air post,
2431
02:47:28,334 --> 02:47:32,501
and we provided protection
while the Europeans skied.
2432
02:47:32,667 --> 02:47:34,167
There were all types of colons.
2433
02:47:34,334 --> 02:47:39,542
There were simple workers,
who even lived humbly,
2434
02:47:39,709 --> 02:47:44,792
and there were rich ones,
some very rich.
2435
02:47:44,959 --> 02:47:47,084
I was in a...
2436
02:47:47,251 --> 02:47:50,126
It was probably around Mila,
I don't remember the name,
2437
02:47:50,292 --> 02:47:53,751
we watched a farm for a couple of weeks.
2438
02:47:53,917 --> 02:47:56,667
I don't remember the name,
10,000 acres.
2439
02:47:56,834 --> 02:48:00,042
In September, we would watch
2440
02:48:00,209 --> 02:48:04,626
the vineyards while the Arabs
harvested the grapes.
2441
02:48:04,792 --> 02:48:06,792
And you.
2442
02:48:06,959 --> 02:48:10,292
As a French farmer,
how did you feel about these properties?
2443
02:48:10,459 --> 02:48:12,834
It was completely different from here
2444
02:48:13,001 --> 02:48:15,876
because they had thousands of acres
2445
02:48:16,042 --> 02:48:18,459
while we had a few acres.
2446
02:48:18,626 --> 02:48:20,584
I was hospitalized in Blida.
2447
02:48:20,751 --> 02:48:23,959
And I found out
that the maintenance staff,
2448
02:48:24,126 --> 02:48:27,876
the cleaning, the cleaning ladies
were Pieds-Noirs.
2449
02:48:28,042 --> 02:48:33,542
They were not only people who were
in the papers with big properties,
2450
02:48:33,709 --> 02:48:36,584
they were humble people.
2451
02:48:36,751 --> 02:48:39,501
A population worth...
2452
02:48:40,876 --> 02:48:42,417
to fight for I think.
2453
02:48:42,584 --> 02:48:45,417
They had the right to live
in a country they'd made,
2454
02:48:45,584 --> 02:48:51,584
cities they had built.
The environment that was theirs.
2455
02:48:51,751 --> 02:48:56,459
We didn't have the same...
If I can say-- It's not politics...
2456
02:48:56,626 --> 02:49:00,417
And I was young, I didn't really
get politics, but there was friction.
2457
02:49:00,584 --> 02:49:04,542
Because we complained,
and all they said was,
2458
02:49:04,709 --> 02:49:08,084
"In '45, we came, or in '44.
2459
02:49:08,251 --> 02:49:13,251
We gave you a hand," to free us here.
2460
02:49:13,417 --> 02:49:16,376
I was little,
but I remember that war too,
2461
02:49:16,542 --> 02:49:18,751
I experienced it here as a kid.
2462
02:49:46,542 --> 02:49:50,459
Did you witness abuse
committed by the French Army?
2463
02:49:50,626 --> 02:49:53,917
It depended on who was
commanding the group.
2464
02:49:54,084 --> 02:49:59,667
It was usually a sub-officer,
even a lieutenant.
2465
02:49:59,834 --> 02:50:02,167
Some did it.
2466
02:50:02,334 --> 02:50:06,584
As professionals, meaning...
2467
02:50:06,751 --> 02:50:10,167
asking people to be quiet,
to do what they were asked.
2468
02:50:10,334 --> 02:50:12,792
And others, on the other hand,
2469
02:50:14,126 --> 02:50:16,251
went seriously too far.
2470
02:50:16,417 --> 02:50:20,334
But the most common thing
was gratuitous violence
2471
02:50:20,501 --> 02:50:23,834
during patrols or searches.
2472
02:50:24,001 --> 02:50:29,501
Because, of course,
when you come while people are sleeping,
2473
02:50:29,667 --> 02:50:32,334
you can't say the welcome was warm.
2474
02:50:32,501 --> 02:50:38,709
And sometimes, especially with women,
2475
02:50:38,876 --> 02:50:42,126
it didn't go smoothly.
2476
02:50:42,292 --> 02:50:44,709
I didn't witness scenes
2477
02:50:44,876 --> 02:50:48,626
where it came to rape,
but you can't exclude it.
2478
02:50:48,792 --> 02:50:50,626
Some, uh...
2479
02:50:52,917 --> 02:50:58,959
talked about having had women,
about having raped women.
2480
02:50:59,126 --> 02:51:03,626
And believe me, it wasn't fun
for the one who stayed on site,
2481
02:51:03,792 --> 02:51:06,751
not to have participated.
2482
02:51:06,917 --> 02:51:10,751
But I was terribly shocked,
and I saw an opportunity to talk about it
2483
02:51:10,917 --> 02:51:12,917
with my mates
2484
02:51:13,084 --> 02:51:17,459
who were the closest to me in my tent,
2485
02:51:17,626 --> 02:51:20,542
and make the comment
that appeared normal to me,
2486
02:51:20,709 --> 02:51:24,959
and today as well,
2487
02:51:26,251 --> 02:51:29,167
that you couldn't act surprised
if there was
2488
02:51:29,334 --> 02:51:34,001
a retaliation against us
from members of the FLN.
2489
02:51:34,167 --> 02:51:37,251
We went on a mission,
we arrived in the village.
2490
02:51:37,417 --> 02:51:43,251
We had to take the women,
the elderly, out of the huts.
2491
02:51:43,417 --> 02:51:47,792
And there were always special cases.
Some guys took out
2492
02:51:47,959 --> 02:51:52,459
the elderly and the women
hitting them with their guns.
2493
02:51:52,626 --> 02:51:57,251
- Did it happen frequently?
- Frequently, but not always.
2494
02:51:57,417 --> 02:52:00,751
There were always a bunch of guys
who were against that,
2495
02:52:00,917 --> 02:52:04,251
so we stopped the circus,
but otherwise, it did happen.
2496
02:52:04,417 --> 02:52:08,417
And when you witnessed violence,
did you take action?
2497
02:52:08,584 --> 02:52:13,084
Well... We didn't know what to say.
2498
02:52:13,251 --> 02:52:15,251
Sometimes we'd say, "Take it easy."
2499
02:52:15,417 --> 02:52:18,542
What could we do? Complain?
2500
02:52:18,709 --> 02:52:22,084
It wouldn't have changed anything.
2501
02:52:23,501 --> 02:52:25,751
I tried to do what I could,
2502
02:52:25,917 --> 02:52:30,167
I was lucky enough to be aware.
2503
02:52:30,334 --> 02:52:34,876
During patrols, I was always in front.
2504
02:52:35,042 --> 02:52:39,251
Maybe I'm just easing my conscience,
2505
02:52:39,417 --> 02:52:43,751
but when we arrived in the woods,
kids ran because they were scared.
2506
02:52:43,917 --> 02:52:47,751
And I stopped mates from firing.
2507
02:52:47,917 --> 02:52:50,209
I told them, "Don't you see
they are kids?"
2508
02:52:50,376 --> 02:52:51,584
That happened to me.
2509
02:52:51,751 --> 02:52:54,584
I had a deputy,
a company commander, a sergeant.
2510
02:52:54,751 --> 02:53:00,209
He had a high school degree,
but he was huge and crazy.
2511
02:53:00,376 --> 02:53:07,042
The guy always had pliers in his pocket,
2512
02:53:07,209 --> 02:53:12,501
and as soon as found a Fell
during a skirmish,
2513
02:53:12,667 --> 02:53:16,292
he specialized in gold teeth.
He would collect gold teeth.
2514
02:53:16,459 --> 02:53:19,126
I couldn't stand that.
2515
02:53:19,292 --> 02:53:21,792
It's the only time
I really put my foot down.
2516
02:53:21,959 --> 02:53:24,834
When we arrived at the end
of the road,
2517
02:53:25,001 --> 02:53:30,209
Fells would throw grenades at us,
2518
02:53:30,376 --> 02:53:32,126
in the half-track.
2519
02:53:33,292 --> 02:53:35,959
And at that moment, we...
2520
02:53:36,126 --> 02:53:39,542
There were one or two prisoners,
2521
02:53:39,709 --> 02:53:42,584
but the guys didn't have time
to take them as prisoners.
2522
02:53:42,751 --> 02:53:48,417
Because some killed them right away,
there was no time to get them to speak.
2523
02:53:50,917 --> 02:53:54,292
- Could you have committed such an act?
- Huh?
2524
02:53:54,459 --> 02:53:58,584
In that kind of mission,
could you have committed such an act?
2525
02:53:58,751 --> 02:54:00,834
It was not in my...
2526
02:54:01,001 --> 02:54:02,292
It wasn't my thing.
2527
02:54:02,459 --> 02:54:05,584
I wasn't that angry.
2528
02:54:05,751 --> 02:54:09,209
During big missions,
I saw huts burning indeed.
2529
02:54:09,376 --> 02:54:12,417
I guess it was an oversight.
2530
02:54:13,709 --> 02:54:17,542
But identifying who set them on fire
was very hard.
2531
02:54:17,709 --> 02:54:21,084
But if you want, yes, I saw that.
2532
02:54:21,251 --> 02:54:25,751
- Sometimes we left burning huts behind.
- Were you shocked at the time?
2533
02:54:27,042 --> 02:54:28,792
No, no, no.
2534
02:54:28,959 --> 02:54:32,292
I admit it. It didn't shock me,
because I was committed
2535
02:54:33,501 --> 02:54:38,126
to the situation. I regretted it,
but I didn't think about it.
2536
02:54:38,292 --> 02:54:44,542
Everything that was in an operation zone
was in a forbidden zone.
2537
02:54:44,709 --> 02:54:50,376
Everything there, cattle, men, and huts,
everything was burnt down.
2538
02:54:50,542 --> 02:54:53,126
- Men too?
- They were warned.
2539
02:54:53,292 --> 02:54:55,167
Those were forbidden zones.
2540
02:54:55,334 --> 02:55:00,459
- Any person...
- Anyone there was a Fellagha.
2541
02:55:00,626 --> 02:55:02,376
They were shot.
2542
02:55:03,626 --> 02:55:07,584
I didn't see people being shot,
but they must have been,
2543
02:55:07,751 --> 02:55:10,001
since they were not supposed
to be there.
2544
02:55:10,167 --> 02:55:14,876
And if they were there,
they had a weapon.
2545
02:55:15,042 --> 02:55:18,751
In '60, in December,
2546
02:55:18,917 --> 02:55:24,542
we had two police 4x4s
2547
02:55:24,709 --> 02:55:31,042
that were machine-gunned,
and no one survived in a pass.
2548
02:55:31,209 --> 02:55:35,167
And the next day, the Green Berets
carried out an operation mission
2549
02:55:35,334 --> 02:55:37,876
and destroyed everything in their path.
2550
02:55:38,042 --> 02:55:40,501
There were a dozen huts, you see.
2551
02:55:40,667 --> 02:55:43,042
And inside.
2552
02:55:43,209 --> 02:55:46,501
Either they burnt them down
2553
02:55:46,667 --> 02:55:49,084
or they were completely gutted.
2554
02:55:49,251 --> 02:55:52,126
There was no life left, not even a dog.
2555
02:55:54,876 --> 02:55:57,834
And what happened to the population?
2556
02:55:58,001 --> 02:56:01,209
The population was always gunned down.
2557
02:56:01,376 --> 02:56:03,167
There was no forgiveness.
2558
02:56:03,334 --> 02:56:07,292
After the Green Berets,
everything was destroyed.
2559
02:56:07,459 --> 02:56:12,834
- And you saw the bodies?
- Yes, of course. Yes.
2560
02:56:13,001 --> 02:56:16,251
- When you came, the bodies were still...
- Yes.
2561
02:56:16,417 --> 02:56:20,292
- Women, children...
- Yes, everything.
2562
02:56:21,834 --> 02:56:23,459
They even...
2563
02:56:23,626 --> 02:56:25,959
Sometime later, they...
2564
02:56:26,126 --> 02:56:28,209
I don't know if they got a tip,
2565
02:56:28,376 --> 02:56:31,292
they did a napalm mission
with the chopper.
2566
02:56:31,459 --> 02:56:33,792
They shouldn't have,
because it was forbidden.
2567
02:56:33,959 --> 02:56:39,042
Did you see abuse, torture,
committed by the FLN?
2568
02:56:39,209 --> 02:56:44,501
Yes, of course. In the beginning,
when I was near the Tunisian border,
2569
02:56:44,667 --> 02:56:47,667
I was told, but I think it was true,
2570
02:56:47,834 --> 02:56:51,126
because the witnesses had seen it,
2571
02:56:51,292 --> 02:56:55,542
there had been acts of violence
2572
02:56:55,709 --> 02:56:59,042
on French soldiers that were found dead,
2573
02:56:59,209 --> 02:57:01,167
emasculated, etc.
2574
02:57:01,334 --> 02:57:05,542
In the Karata gorges,
2575
02:57:05,709 --> 02:57:08,626
we got there by truck,
we found one of our trucks,
2576
02:57:08,792 --> 02:57:11,292
they were due for discharge.
2577
02:57:11,459 --> 02:57:13,667
People that were our age,
2578
02:57:13,834 --> 02:57:18,959
they were discharged, because they were
married, they left two months before us.
2579
02:57:19,126 --> 02:57:24,501
And these guys had been stopped,
and we found them with their parts cut,
2580
02:57:24,667 --> 02:57:29,292
in their mouths, open belly filled
with stones, facing Mecca.
2581
02:57:29,459 --> 02:57:31,167
Twenty-two of our guys.
2582
02:57:31,334 --> 02:57:35,167
- You saw that?
- I saw that with my own eyes.
2583
02:57:35,334 --> 02:57:39,709
- And... Of course.
- I didn't see the killers, but I saw the guys.
2584
02:57:39,876 --> 02:57:43,542
And what did such a sight
do on a boy like you?
2585
02:57:47,709 --> 02:57:51,917
At that point, if the killers were found...
2586
02:57:52,084 --> 02:57:54,542
Maybe we wouldn't have done
the same, but no mercy.
2587
02:57:54,709 --> 02:57:59,251
They were immediately trapped
by a number of well-warmed Fells,
2588
02:57:59,417 --> 02:58:05,792
who cleaned up that section,
2589
02:58:05,959 --> 02:58:08,542
just the squad's reckon elements,
2590
02:58:08,709 --> 02:58:11,209
and ten minutes passed
before back-up arrived,
2591
02:58:11,376 --> 02:58:15,334
and indeed, they were undressed,
and it was really hard.
2592
02:58:15,501 --> 02:58:17,376
Meaning?
2593
02:58:17,542 --> 02:58:20,709
No, well, emasculated, etc.
2594
02:58:20,876 --> 02:58:25,334
You've seen the picture.
The guys... The bodies were naked.
2595
02:58:28,126 --> 02:58:32,167
And in a condition...
Not only out of savagery,
2596
02:58:32,334 --> 02:58:34,959
but to stun the imagination
and terrorize, I think.
2597
02:58:35,126 --> 02:58:37,917
There were 14 dead in a company.
2598
02:58:38,084 --> 02:58:41,251
In a truck attack.
2599
02:58:41,417 --> 02:58:45,501
They shot the driver,
the truck went into the ditch.
2600
02:58:45,667 --> 02:58:49,251
The Fells came and killed everyone,
2601
02:58:49,417 --> 02:58:53,709
they took all the weapons and left.
When we arrived
2602
02:58:53,876 --> 02:58:57,834
we were alerted.
When we arrived, they were all dead.
2603
02:58:58,001 --> 02:59:01,126
Fourteen of them.
2604
02:59:01,292 --> 02:59:05,792
Guys from the region. From
Saint-Siméon-de-Bressieux, La Mure.
2605
02:59:07,709 --> 02:59:13,251
- They were killed...
- They shot them in the back of the neck.
2606
02:59:13,417 --> 02:59:17,667
There was no forgiveness.
2607
02:59:18,834 --> 02:59:23,209
We wanted to shoot ourselves
before becoming the Fellaghas' prisoners.
2608
02:59:23,376 --> 02:59:24,876
- That was your fear.
- Suicide.
2609
02:59:25,042 --> 02:59:29,959
There was that fear.
After seeing a number of colons
2610
02:59:30,126 --> 02:59:32,667
with their sex in their mouths
and the Kabyle smile.
2611
02:59:32,834 --> 02:59:35,584
- We saw that often.
- You saw that?
2612
02:59:35,751 --> 02:59:38,167
Yes, yes.
2613
02:59:38,334 --> 02:59:42,792
And usually, after the few operations
we had in the sector,
2614
02:59:42,959 --> 02:59:45,167
when Fellaghas were killed,
2615
02:59:45,334 --> 02:59:47,709
they were brought back,
2616
02:59:47,876 --> 02:59:50,626
put in the Jeep's trailer
and exposed on the village's square
2617
02:59:50,792 --> 02:59:53,084
for at least a day.
2618
02:59:53,251 --> 02:59:56,251
But it was not the smartest solution,
2619
02:59:56,417 --> 02:59:58,917
because it amounted
to a couple of colons
2620
02:59:59,084 --> 03:00:01,292
found murdered the next day.
2621
03:00:01,459 --> 03:00:04,376
We didn't want to be taken prisoner,
even if we had
2622
03:00:04,542 --> 03:00:08,584
to kill ourselves, but not a prisoner,
because we'd heard...
2623
03:00:08,751 --> 03:00:12,376
Anyway, for the paratroopers...
2624
03:00:12,542 --> 03:00:16,459
if they found Legionnaires or Troopers,
they'd kill them right away.
2625
03:00:17,542 --> 03:00:21,834
Did you see your mates
made prisoners and mutilated?
2626
03:00:22,001 --> 03:00:27,542
No, because...
2627
03:00:28,542 --> 03:00:31,626
paratroopers don't leave their dead
in the field.
2628
03:00:31,792 --> 03:00:35,001
Either we keep him,
or we go get them.
2629
03:00:35,167 --> 03:00:40,126
- How did you react with the 14 bodies?
- It was heartbreaking.
2630
03:00:40,292 --> 03:00:44,876
The poor guys who were here
2631
03:00:45,042 --> 03:00:49,626
to pacify, allegedly.
2632
03:00:49,792 --> 03:00:53,876
They died, killed like little rabbits.
2633
03:00:54,042 --> 03:00:56,626
It hurts in the stomach.
2634
03:00:56,792 --> 03:01:00,792
Then some guys were bitter.
2635
03:01:00,959 --> 03:01:04,667
When I saw my guys,
the condition they were in,
2636
03:01:04,834 --> 03:01:07,292
I understood better.
2637
03:01:07,459 --> 03:01:11,709
Before seeing this, I was opposed.
After, I understood.
2638
03:01:11,876 --> 03:01:15,167
You don't make an omelet
without breaking any eggs.
2639
03:01:15,334 --> 03:01:19,292
There was a general mood
making it so
2640
03:01:19,459 --> 03:01:23,209
even the people that were
the least inclined
2641
03:01:23,376 --> 03:01:27,959
to display that kind of behavior,
2642
03:01:28,126 --> 03:01:31,792
in that atmosphere,
2643
03:01:31,959 --> 03:01:37,459
the sort of psychological influence
on people, saying,
2644
03:01:37,626 --> 03:01:39,501
"If...
2645
03:01:39,667 --> 03:01:43,542
if we don't get intelligence,
2646
03:01:43,709 --> 03:01:47,126
French soldiers will die."
2647
03:01:47,292 --> 03:01:49,167
- That argument worked?
- Of course.
2648
03:01:49,334 --> 03:01:51,417
Most of the time, it worked.
2649
03:01:51,584 --> 03:01:58,417
A lot of people
could justify their actions like that.
2650
03:01:59,751 --> 03:02:05,209
But the most surprising was
to find people who...
2651
03:02:08,126 --> 03:02:11,334
who felt pleasure,
sadistic pleasure, of course,
2652
03:02:11,501 --> 03:02:13,626
displaying that kind of behavior.
2653
03:02:13,792 --> 03:02:16,876
It was a thrill, in a way.
2654
03:02:17,042 --> 03:02:21,792
And we have to understand that
some of these draftees...
2655
03:02:21,959 --> 03:02:24,959
this is such cliché but it's true,
2656
03:02:25,126 --> 03:02:30,501
but coming to Algeria
was the time of their life.
2657
03:02:30,667 --> 03:02:33,376
Some had never left their whole.
2658
03:02:33,542 --> 03:02:40,167
I'm thinking about a particular person
among the most eager
2659
03:02:40,334 --> 03:02:42,251
for all these atrocities,
2660
03:02:42,417 --> 03:02:46,667
and he was a farm worker
from Sarthe.
2661
03:02:46,834 --> 03:02:50,459
He'd taken the train for the first time,
the boat, too.
2662
03:02:50,626 --> 03:02:54,501
And now, he lived in a story.
2663
03:02:54,667 --> 03:02:57,959
But it was impossible to talk to him,
2664
03:02:58,126 --> 03:03:01,209
to try and make him understand that,
2665
03:03:01,376 --> 03:03:07,167
in his farm, he wouldn't have abused
an animal like he did people.
2666
03:03:07,334 --> 03:03:11,584
- What did you do with ALN prisoners?
- They were locked-up.
2667
03:03:11,751 --> 03:03:12,959
In the blockhouse.
2668
03:03:13,709 --> 03:03:14,876
For questioning.
2669
03:03:15,042 --> 03:03:19,334
- Who questioned them?
- It was the Second Bureau.
2670
03:03:19,501 --> 03:03:21,167
We were not involved.
2671
03:03:21,334 --> 03:03:25,376
There was always
an intelligence officer in the camps.
2672
03:03:25,542 --> 03:03:29,584
From what you knew,
was it intense questioning?
2673
03:03:29,751 --> 03:03:35,584
It was tough. We never took part,
I tell you. I never saw it.
2674
03:03:35,751 --> 03:03:39,876
- What do you mean by "tough"?
- Beatings.
2675
03:03:40,042 --> 03:03:43,584
Blow, the Tucker telephone.
2676
03:03:43,751 --> 03:03:46,126
- You knew about the Tucker telephone?
- Yeah.
2677
03:03:46,292 --> 03:03:51,084
- It was frequently used?
- Every time there were important guys.
2678
03:03:51,251 --> 03:03:53,959
- Who told you?
- On little civilians,
2679
03:03:54,126 --> 03:03:56,709
the guys we caught around, less,
2680
03:03:56,876 --> 03:04:02,251
but as soon they knew they had
an important guy from the FLN or other,
2681
03:04:02,417 --> 03:04:03,959
he would get the Tucker telephone.
2682
03:04:04,126 --> 03:04:09,167
- But who told you?
- Everyone was aware.
2683
03:04:09,334 --> 03:04:10,584
We knew.
2684
03:04:10,751 --> 03:04:12,459
How did it go?
2685
03:04:14,501 --> 03:04:17,667
- For me?
- That scene you mentioned.
2686
03:04:23,126 --> 03:04:24,751
It was in the...
2687
03:04:24,917 --> 03:04:29,709
the command post of where we were.
2688
03:04:33,917 --> 03:04:40,417
We'd found suspects, of course.
2689
03:04:40,584 --> 03:04:45,667
And I wasn't... Because when there
were such operations...
2690
03:04:45,834 --> 03:04:48,584
Okay, it wasn't every day,
2691
03:04:48,751 --> 03:04:51,917
maybe that's the reason
it stayed with me,
2692
03:04:53,292 --> 03:04:57,751
but some came to get volunteers
2693
03:04:59,042 --> 03:05:02,834
to do that, and they found them,
which is the most astonishing.
2694
03:05:03,001 --> 03:05:05,417
- Even among the draftees?
- Yeah.
2695
03:05:07,959 --> 03:05:09,876
So...
2696
03:05:11,292 --> 03:05:15,292
Curiosity kind of
2697
03:05:15,459 --> 03:05:17,834
pushed me to try and see something,
2698
03:05:18,001 --> 03:05:21,626
because I wasn't invited to participate.
2699
03:05:21,792 --> 03:05:25,584
And what I saw was
what you can imagine.
2700
03:05:25,751 --> 03:05:28,792
People twisting in pain.
2701
03:05:28,959 --> 03:05:32,084
But I didn't stay.
2702
03:05:32,251 --> 03:05:35,709
I was powerless to do anything,
2703
03:05:35,876 --> 03:05:39,126
and I wasn't looking for voyeurism either.
2704
03:05:39,292 --> 03:05:41,126
Well, it happened once.
2705
03:05:41,292 --> 03:05:45,751
To generate psychological terror is...
I won't speak about torture,
2706
03:05:45,917 --> 03:05:50,042
because I didn't see it, as a volunteer.
2707
03:05:50,209 --> 03:05:54,584
But the torture was the threat
of the next day. "What will happen?"
2708
03:05:54,751 --> 03:05:57,834
Those were only words.
2709
03:05:58,001 --> 03:06:02,376
But words that were scary.
2710
03:06:02,542 --> 03:06:07,501
They didn't know what would happen
the next day, what was said...
2711
03:06:07,667 --> 03:06:11,792
You never witnessed abuse
committed on a prisoner?
2712
03:06:11,959 --> 03:06:16,126
Direct abuse, no.
I can say I didn't see it,
2713
03:06:16,292 --> 03:06:18,834
because those...
2714
03:06:21,042 --> 03:06:23,834
I think torture is relative.
2715
03:06:24,001 --> 03:06:26,251
Blows, yes, I've seen blows,
2716
03:06:26,417 --> 03:06:29,251
- slaps...
- Did you give them?
2717
03:06:29,417 --> 03:06:32,001
What... No, I never hit.
I wasn't involved.
2718
03:06:32,167 --> 03:06:33,834
People talk a lot about...
2719
03:06:34,001 --> 03:06:35,459
Could you have tortured?
2720
03:06:35,626 --> 03:06:37,667
- I never saw any torture. I tried...
- Could you?
2721
03:06:37,834 --> 03:06:41,251
- Excuse-me?
- Could you have done it if you had to?
2722
03:06:41,417 --> 03:06:44,751
Answering you today, I have no idea.
Maybe if a mate
2723
03:06:44,917 --> 03:06:47,917
had been shot or had his throat was cut,
I would have had
2724
03:06:48,084 --> 03:06:49,834
a violent reaction.
2725
03:06:50,001 --> 03:06:53,501
But all the same, what kind of torture?
The Tucker telephone,
2726
03:06:53,667 --> 03:06:57,459
with a generator used
to broadcast widely,
2727
03:06:57,626 --> 03:07:01,834
we all tried to see how it worked.
2728
03:07:02,001 --> 03:07:04,042
Two electrodes held
with the tip of your fingers
2729
03:07:04,209 --> 03:07:06,876
- and a mate turned...
- For how long did you try?
2730
03:07:07,042 --> 03:07:09,459
- How long?
- How long did you try it?
2731
03:07:09,626 --> 03:07:12,126
Three minutes, but first you have to...
2732
03:07:12,292 --> 03:07:14,459
But how long did the questioning last?
2733
03:07:14,626 --> 03:07:17,626
- The questioning?
- Yeah.
2734
03:07:17,792 --> 03:07:22,167
What I saw lasted the entire night,
but not the Tucker telephone,
2735
03:07:22,334 --> 03:07:24,917
some milder techniques.
2736
03:07:26,292 --> 03:07:29,667
It was the Kenish brothers.
I remember their names,
2737
03:07:29,834 --> 03:07:34,251
officers caught in a hut,
they had surrendered.
2738
03:07:34,417 --> 03:07:37,626
Well, it lasted the night.
2739
03:07:37,792 --> 03:07:41,834
The torture session lasted a while.
They hanged him by the feet.
2740
03:07:42,001 --> 03:07:47,251
I heard the captain threatening
2741
03:07:47,417 --> 03:07:50,751
to kill him if he didn't talk.
2742
03:07:50,917 --> 03:07:53,251
The reaction...
2743
03:07:53,417 --> 03:07:55,667
You could have at that time,
2744
03:07:55,834 --> 03:08:00,126
you needed courage, we should
have had more of it, it wasn't enough.
2745
03:08:00,292 --> 03:08:06,001
We just let a sub-officer know
that we didn't sign up for this.
2746
03:08:06,167 --> 03:08:12,584
They went to the captain. It stopped
that day, but they took all the men.
2747
03:08:12,751 --> 03:08:19,001
It didn't happen again much on site.
Once, in another village,
2748
03:08:19,167 --> 03:08:21,834
but not for long.
2749
03:08:22,001 --> 03:08:24,834
And, of course,
when we took the men,
2750
03:08:25,001 --> 03:08:28,167
the women started screaming,
following us.
2751
03:08:28,334 --> 03:08:30,876
It was horrible. It lasted...
2752
03:08:32,501 --> 03:08:36,459
several months, I think,
about two months.
2753
03:08:38,292 --> 03:08:42,084
A good number of the prisoners
were tortured.
2754
03:08:43,209 --> 03:08:47,334
We saw them go by,
because the guys on watch
2755
03:08:47,501 --> 03:08:50,501
would go and bring them back.
2756
03:08:50,667 --> 03:08:55,042
A big part, exactly how many...
But a big number were tortured.
2757
03:08:55,209 --> 03:08:57,542
How were they when you saw them?
2758
03:08:57,709 --> 03:09:01,417
I went to fetch one myself,
2759
03:09:01,584 --> 03:09:05,876
since I was on watch duty.
I found him on the floor,
2760
03:09:07,001 --> 03:09:08,626
in his urine.
2761
03:09:08,792 --> 03:09:12,709
The Tucker telephone was right there,
he was still naked...
2762
03:09:15,501 --> 03:09:18,292
Like people who were tortured.
2763
03:09:19,626 --> 03:09:22,709
I brought him back,
2764
03:09:22,876 --> 03:09:27,542
but you could hear the screams...
2765
03:09:27,709 --> 03:09:31,876
day and night, it was day and night.
2766
03:09:33,001 --> 03:09:34,626
- Forgive me...
- What can I say?
2767
03:09:34,792 --> 03:09:39,251
What did the re-draftees do?
Did some protest? Do something?
2768
03:09:39,417 --> 03:09:44,542
We were... We were without...
2769
03:09:44,709 --> 03:09:48,126
We were not asked to do it,
so it was...
2770
03:09:48,292 --> 03:09:52,042
It was... I don't know.
2771
03:09:52,209 --> 03:09:55,376
Did officers try to justify torture?
2772
03:09:55,542 --> 03:09:57,209
They didn't talk about it.
2773
03:09:58,626 --> 03:10:00,251
They didn't talk about it.
2774
03:10:00,417 --> 03:10:04,834
What should we have done?
Taken our rifles out to shoot?
2775
03:10:05,001 --> 03:10:07,334
You need a lot of courage do to that.
2776
03:10:07,501 --> 03:10:12,917
I... It stopped, oddly,
2777
03:10:13,084 --> 03:10:17,167
we were told on the night
of General Gouraud,
2778
03:10:17,334 --> 03:10:19,459
I think he was in charge of the region.
2779
03:10:19,626 --> 03:10:23,917
And they released everyone.
They just kept a few
2780
03:10:24,084 --> 03:10:28,542
who left camp,
but most men were freed.
2781
03:10:29,792 --> 03:10:33,001
Did you feel complicit
because you didn't do anything?
2782
03:10:33,167 --> 03:10:38,084
Yes. I think those who sent me there
made me complicit, yes, indeed.
2783
03:10:38,251 --> 03:10:43,084
Complicit of the torture, of the death
of many Algerians.
2784
03:10:43,251 --> 03:10:45,751
And I will never forgive them.
2785
03:10:45,917 --> 03:10:50,209
I'll never forgive them.
It was hard for me to vote again for some,
2786
03:10:50,376 --> 03:10:52,459
to tell myself it's the lesser evil.
2787
03:10:52,626 --> 03:10:56,251
I'll always remember when Gouraud
walked by me during my watch.
2788
03:10:56,417 --> 03:10:59,126
I nearly told him,
"General, we just released people
2789
03:10:59,292 --> 03:11:03,667
who were tortured for months here,
how come? Do you agree?"
2790
03:11:03,834 --> 03:11:07,251
I almost told him, I looked at him
in the eyes, it happened twice.
2791
03:11:07,417 --> 03:11:11,959
Once, when they tried to force me to
be on the firing squad, I didn't want to.
2792
03:11:12,126 --> 03:11:14,876
And that other time.
But I didn't have the courage.
2793
03:11:15,042 --> 03:11:17,376
I almost did,
but I didn't have the courage.
2794
03:11:17,542 --> 03:11:21,459
I lacked courage, I was complicit, yes.
2795
03:11:21,626 --> 03:11:25,084
And I have a wound
that will never go away.
2796
03:11:37,834 --> 03:11:41,042
Through my education
and family tradition, I was leaning left,
2797
03:11:41,209 --> 03:11:43,876
because of my parents, I'll admit,
who were...
2798
03:11:44,042 --> 03:11:46,542
Let's say...
2799
03:11:46,709 --> 03:11:48,626
They were more on the socialist side...
2800
03:11:48,792 --> 03:11:50,626
So you had hostility toward that war.
2801
03:11:50,792 --> 03:11:54,167
Yes, while being eager,
but not gung-ho
2802
03:11:54,334 --> 03:11:57,126
about being involved in that conflict.
I would do my job,
2803
03:11:57,292 --> 03:11:59,251
I had a national conscience,
2804
03:11:59,417 --> 03:12:03,167
I had the desire to be an officer
since I did higher military preparation,
2805
03:12:03,334 --> 03:12:06,251
so directly left for practical school
at Cherchell.
2806
03:12:06,417 --> 03:12:09,167
What was the state of mind in Cherchell?
2807
03:12:09,334 --> 03:12:13,042
That's actually where the transformation
gradually took place.
2808
03:12:13,209 --> 03:12:17,376
We were taught by first rate instructors,
2809
03:12:17,542 --> 03:12:21,251
some came from Indochina.
2810
03:12:21,417 --> 03:12:25,751
Others had taken part
in law enforcement operations.
2811
03:12:25,917 --> 03:12:27,792
They all had experience.
2812
03:12:27,959 --> 03:12:32,042
In five or six months,
2813
03:12:32,209 --> 03:12:35,251
the guy who had been a student,
who wasn't used to lead,
2814
03:12:35,417 --> 03:12:38,667
who didn't know anything,
2815
03:12:38,834 --> 03:12:43,834
they had to change them into guys
who were capable of leading 30 guys.
2816
03:12:44,001 --> 03:12:47,251
Of course, it was very physical,
2817
03:12:47,417 --> 03:12:53,709
there wasn't much to eat,
there was a lot of learning.
2818
03:12:53,876 --> 03:12:57,667
They introduced us to other things than
what I'd learned in France,
2819
03:12:57,834 --> 03:13:00,459
a press that reported what they wanted.
2820
03:13:00,626 --> 03:13:04,251
I feel you were psychologically
turned around...
2821
03:13:04,417 --> 03:13:07,417
Turned around, yes.
2822
03:13:07,584 --> 03:13:11,251
I no longer condemn the war. I said
something could be done for the people,
2823
03:13:11,417 --> 03:13:14,501
simple people who are here,
we need to keep them
2824
03:13:14,667 --> 03:13:19,501
- in the country.
- How did you react to the Generals' Coup?
2825
03:13:19,667 --> 03:13:23,959
The school, a big part of it,
not all of it, supported the...
2826
03:13:24,126 --> 03:13:25,459
- The Coup.
- The Coup.
2827
03:13:25,626 --> 03:13:27,751
- And so did you?
- Yeah.
2828
03:13:27,917 --> 03:13:31,209
You would have gone
if you had been asked?
2829
03:13:31,376 --> 03:13:32,542
At that point, yes.
2830
03:13:32,709 --> 03:13:35,959
We didn't have any qualms.
2831
03:13:36,126 --> 03:13:40,751
We were prepared,
and we certainly would have marched on.
2832
03:13:40,917 --> 03:13:42,084
- Did you...
- We didn't...
2833
03:13:42,251 --> 03:13:46,251
Without looking into the consequences.
It was spontaneous, but we would have.
2834
03:13:46,417 --> 03:13:48,542
Had you heard De Gaulle's speech?
2835
03:13:48,709 --> 03:13:51,667
Yes. De Gaulle, no.
2836
03:13:52,417 --> 03:13:56,334
This picture was taken
on the slopes of...
2837
03:13:56,501 --> 03:13:59,917
on the Babors,
a mountain of Lesser Kabylia.
2838
03:14:00,084 --> 03:14:02,584
This was the traditional dress.
The djellaba was on,
2839
03:14:02,751 --> 03:14:05,876
but when it was hot,
it was just the uniform and the hat.
2840
03:14:06,042 --> 03:14:09,501
The usual dress. We were equipped
with Pataugas boots or Rangers.
2841
03:14:09,667 --> 03:14:13,292
Typical weaponry for a section leader,
the US rifle, two clips.
2842
03:14:14,042 --> 03:14:17,001
It was in North Africa,
on the mountains by Setif
2843
03:14:17,167 --> 03:14:19,084
that I saw the most snow
in my entire life.
2844
03:14:19,251 --> 03:14:24,542
I have a radio next to me, I remember
his name, Pinot, from Charentes.
2845
03:14:24,709 --> 03:14:28,792
And this is our meal, with our rations,
the down jacket, because it's frisky.
2846
03:14:29,876 --> 03:14:32,626
I contacted the Harka,
meaning the Harkis,
2847
03:14:32,792 --> 03:14:35,626
who came as company back-up
for the company.
2848
03:14:35,792 --> 03:14:39,042
There was a little celebration in my honor.
2849
03:14:39,209 --> 03:14:42,751
Traditional dances, a little meal.
2850
03:14:42,917 --> 03:14:46,959
And at night, my mate tells me,
"We're going out,
2851
03:14:47,126 --> 03:14:49,459
we're setting up an ambush."
I left with...
2852
03:14:49,626 --> 03:14:52,084
- On your first day?
- The same night.
2853
03:14:52,251 --> 03:14:55,667
I was like Tartarin of Tarascon,
in hindsight,
2854
03:14:55,834 --> 03:15:00,584
and we just took off.
I was in the middle...
2855
03:15:00,751 --> 03:15:04,959
It was hard, because people
walked very fast. I was back from leave.
2856
03:15:05,126 --> 03:15:10,042
And I felt I was completely lost.
I thought, "If I have to do that tomorrow,
2857
03:15:10,209 --> 03:15:13,042
how will I do it?"
Because of a compass, a map.
2858
03:15:13,209 --> 03:15:16,751
We walked,
set up our ambush as usual,
2859
03:15:16,917 --> 03:15:21,542
we stayed part of the night
and came back in the morning.
2860
03:15:22,709 --> 03:15:26,709
And I asked, because he was leaving
the next day, "How do you do it?"
2861
03:15:26,876 --> 03:15:30,334
He said,
"I don't know the field that well,
2862
03:15:30,501 --> 03:15:32,459
but Harkis are from this /and,
they're locals. ”
2863
03:15:32,626 --> 03:15:34,834
They were our guides.
2864
03:15:35,001 --> 03:15:38,251
The resource people like that represent.
They owned the landscape.
2865
03:15:38,417 --> 03:15:42,042
They knew thalwegs,
they knew where to go, the special spots.
2866
03:15:42,209 --> 03:15:46,084
I mean, it was 50%
of the result we could get.
2867
03:15:46,251 --> 03:15:49,459
Why were the Harkis with us?
2868
03:15:49,626 --> 03:15:52,876
Some for money,
some came for the army.
2869
03:15:53,042 --> 03:15:56,667
But many of them, the former Fells,
2870
03:15:56,834 --> 03:15:59,751
we kind of forced them to come with us.
2871
03:15:59,917 --> 03:16:03,667
We brainwashed them,
we pushed for them to come.
2872
03:16:03,834 --> 03:16:08,292
I didn't experience it,
but the psychological action
2873
03:16:08,459 --> 03:16:12,001
needed to take a bodyguard
for Amirouche
2874
03:16:12,167 --> 03:16:15,334
and make him an anti-Fellagha.
You had to compromise him,
2875
03:16:15,501 --> 03:16:20,626
he had to do something despicable
to the Fells for us to trust him.
2876
03:16:21,751 --> 03:16:24,042
And we abandoned those guys.
2877
03:16:24,209 --> 03:16:28,042
But there had been
a commitment on our part.
2878
03:16:28,209 --> 03:16:33,459
And when you read, "I'm going
to be harsh," the bullshit written
2879
03:16:33,626 --> 03:16:38,501
by General Buis lately,
saying Harkis were not real soldiers.
2880
03:16:38,667 --> 03:16:40,959
That guy never commanded Harkis.
2881
03:16:41,126 --> 03:16:45,751
He didn't see them on the battlefield.
He never led any of them.
2882
03:16:45,917 --> 03:16:50,126
For him, a soldier is a guy at attention
ten yards away.
2883
03:16:50,292 --> 03:16:52,751
He doesn't fight.
2884
03:16:52,917 --> 03:16:56,459
Harkis fought,
there were not at attention.
2885
03:16:56,626 --> 03:16:58,709
It's disgusting what we did to them.
2886
03:16:59,876 --> 03:17:02,459
I will never forget the months,
2887
03:17:02,626 --> 03:17:05,834
the years I spent with these people,
because...
2888
03:17:07,209 --> 03:17:11,542
I gave them my trust, they gave us theirs.
2889
03:17:11,709 --> 03:17:17,959
And I... An event...
Before this period of abandonment,
2890
03:17:18,126 --> 03:17:20,751
that's what it was...
2891
03:17:20,917 --> 03:17:22,709
We received instructions
2892
03:17:22,876 --> 03:17:26,167
asking that when he went out
with Harkis,
2893
03:17:26,334 --> 03:17:29,251
we had a maximum of Europeans
2894
03:17:29,417 --> 03:17:32,876
to get rid of automatic rifles,
the machine guns.
2895
03:17:33,042 --> 03:17:37,376
There was a risk of rebellion
or of a change of behavior.
2896
03:17:37,542 --> 03:17:40,251
It's very hard when
you've been living with people
2897
03:17:40,417 --> 03:17:42,542
and you have to tell them,
"I no longer trust you,
2898
03:17:42,709 --> 03:17:46,667
give me back...
And I'm excluding you."
2899
03:17:46,834 --> 03:17:50,001
I think all my mates, not just me,
kept doing what we did before,
2900
03:17:50,167 --> 03:17:54,042
and we're here, my mates are here.
And I think
2901
03:17:54,209 --> 03:17:58,376
it made a difference,
this vote of confidence.
2902
03:17:58,542 --> 03:18:00,042
I always trusted them.
2903
03:18:00,209 --> 03:18:03,834
How did you take the news
of the ceasefire?
2904
03:18:04,001 --> 03:18:08,709
I was really frustrated.
2905
03:18:11,917 --> 03:18:16,917
The army did a good job.
I'm not here for propaganda,
2906
03:18:17,084 --> 03:18:22,042
but we had teachers, nurses,
we helped the population.
2907
03:18:22,209 --> 03:18:28,251
The ceasefire went against
what I believed.
2908
03:18:28,417 --> 03:18:31,751
Do you remember that day,
March 19th, 1962?
2909
03:18:31,917 --> 03:18:36,251
Absolutely. I'd just got the Harka.
2910
03:18:36,417 --> 03:18:43,126
I left on ceasefire night,
I left on an ambush alone.
2911
03:18:43,292 --> 03:18:46,084
For one last ambush,
2912
03:18:46,251 --> 03:18:50,251
not to kill, but it was the last one,
we turned a page.
2913
03:18:50,417 --> 03:18:53,251
You could have been killed
on the night of the ceasefire.
2914
03:18:53,417 --> 03:18:55,251
Yes, but I mean...
2915
03:18:55,417 --> 03:19:01,667
You have to think about the context.
You don't think about dying at 22.
2916
03:19:01,834 --> 03:19:06,459
We didn't find out on the day.
We found out much later.
2917
03:19:06,626 --> 03:19:10,459
Because news came with a delay.
2918
03:19:10,626 --> 03:19:13,667
We didn't have a radio,
no newspapers, nothing. We were in the...
2919
03:19:13,834 --> 03:19:15,667
No one in command told you
the war was over?
2920
03:19:15,834 --> 03:19:19,001
No, no, no. No, no.
We found out long after that.
2921
03:19:19,167 --> 03:19:23,959
Because during that time,
we kept operating as military...
2922
03:19:24,126 --> 03:19:26,667
- You kept doing missions?
- Yes, totally.
2923
03:19:36,126 --> 03:19:39,876
MARCH 19, 1962 STREET
2924
03:19:49,209 --> 03:19:50,501
Died for France.
2925
03:19:57,834 --> 03:20:01,251
In your facility's bathrooms,
you have a strange plaque.
2926
03:20:01,417 --> 03:20:03,042
It's not strange.
2927
03:20:03,209 --> 03:20:08,542
The plaque is about March 19th.
March 19th belongs to the toilet,
2928
03:20:08,709 --> 03:20:12,251
because it wasn't the end of combat,
2929
03:20:12,417 --> 03:20:14,292
but the intensification.
2930
03:20:14,459 --> 03:20:17,751
After each war,
there were always more casualties.
2931
03:20:17,917 --> 03:20:21,667
- Several months later, even years later.
- So why use March 19th
2932
03:20:21,834 --> 03:20:23,167
as the end of the war?
2933
03:20:23,334 --> 03:20:28,042
It's the only official date
for the end of combat in Algeria.
2934
03:20:28,209 --> 03:20:33,667
When I first heard about the ceasefire,
I didn't take it well, honestly.
2935
03:20:34,917 --> 03:20:37,667
I always specify,
2936
03:20:37,834 --> 03:20:39,834
that I was in the country.
2937
03:20:40,001 --> 03:20:42,626
I don't judge the cities,
2938
03:20:42,792 --> 03:20:44,542
that maybe were completely different.
2939
03:20:44,709 --> 03:20:49,167
In the country, villagers
2940
03:20:49,334 --> 03:20:51,751
were relatively very attached to us.
2941
03:20:52,876 --> 03:20:55,126
We had quite a few Harkis with us.
2942
03:20:55,292 --> 03:21:00,251
But we knew it was simple for them.
Two things: they either came with us
2943
03:21:00,417 --> 03:21:03,126
or they would end up
with their throats cut.
2944
03:21:03,292 --> 03:21:07,167
We had the Harka leader
2945
03:21:07,334 --> 03:21:09,876
who was nicknamed "Jackal."
2946
03:21:10,042 --> 03:21:16,334
One night, during a patrol, they took him
and we never heard from him again.
2947
03:21:16,501 --> 03:21:18,792
He was probably executed somewhere.
2948
03:21:18,959 --> 03:21:22,042
It was really painful.
2949
03:21:22,209 --> 03:21:24,292
I had 80 Harkis,
2950
03:21:26,084 --> 03:21:30,584
including three former members
of Amirouche's detail, both sergeants.
2951
03:21:34,001 --> 03:21:39,459
I replaced the lieutenant in charge.
2952
03:21:39,626 --> 03:21:45,584
I arrived before the ceasefire.
I stayed three or four months with them.
2953
03:21:46,751 --> 03:21:52,709
There was something unforgivable for me.
2954
03:21:52,876 --> 03:21:56,334
We offered them a choice between
a couple of solutions.
2955
03:21:56,501 --> 03:22:00,626
The first was to come home with us,
enlist in the army,
2956
03:22:00,792 --> 03:22:04,542
but we wouldn't take the families.
2957
03:22:04,709 --> 03:22:09,501
Family in Kabylia...
Kabylia is a very tribal region,
2958
03:22:09,667 --> 03:22:15,751
the region is very mountainous,
family is very important for the men.
2959
03:22:15,917 --> 03:22:20,876
They could enlist, while we wouldn't
"repatriate" their families.
2960
03:22:21,042 --> 03:22:23,917
Three chose this solution.
2961
03:22:24,084 --> 03:22:28,834
The second one was money,
they would receive a bonus and stay.
2962
03:22:29,001 --> 03:22:34,709
We found one,
four or five months in Algiers
2963
03:22:34,876 --> 03:22:41,626
in very bad shape, and he told us
many others had been slaughtered.
2964
03:22:41,792 --> 03:22:45,959
We were emotionally involved,
2965
03:22:46,126 --> 03:22:50,542
we felt we were abandoning everything
and ushering a massacre.
2966
03:22:50,709 --> 03:22:55,334
And he told me, "It's over."
We were summoned
2967
03:22:55,501 --> 03:22:58,667
in Setif, to the citadel, and we came back
2968
03:22:58,834 --> 03:23:01,042
and then...
2969
03:23:01,209 --> 03:23:03,917
Well...
2970
03:23:04,084 --> 03:23:09,042
It was a very tough experience.
We bawled.
2971
03:23:09,209 --> 03:23:16,084
They said, "You're leaving." The company
was replaced by an infantry section.
2972
03:23:16,251 --> 03:23:22,376
We had to say goodbye. The Harkis could
enlist and leave their families behind.
2973
03:23:22,542 --> 03:23:26,501
I experienced it...
2974
03:23:26,667 --> 03:23:31,667
Emotionally... It was awful.
2975
03:23:31,834 --> 03:23:35,376
And then, our...
We had them surrender their weapons.
2976
03:23:35,542 --> 03:23:38,251
In the end all trust was gone.
2977
03:23:38,417 --> 03:23:41,751
I had a crate of grenades
under my bed.
2978
03:23:42,959 --> 03:23:49,251
They could only redeem themselves
with a last-minute defection.
2979
03:23:49,417 --> 03:23:51,334
So you feared your Harkis?
2980
03:23:51,501 --> 03:23:55,834
I feared my Harkis.
I didn't fear them but, in the end,
2981
03:23:56,001 --> 03:23:59,751
I wasn't sure of what they could do.
It wasn't fear.
2982
03:24:02,501 --> 03:24:05,167
They could just leave, it's true.
2983
03:24:05,334 --> 03:24:08,334
We didn't have any desertions at the end.
2984
03:24:08,501 --> 03:24:11,417
- Did you feel bad about leaving then?
- Pardon?
2985
03:24:11,584 --> 03:24:16,001
- Did you feel bad about leaving then?
- At the time, yes.
2986
03:24:18,459 --> 03:24:20,376
It was a disgrace.
2987
03:24:21,917 --> 03:24:24,084
- Yes, I feel bad.
- You see it as a disgrace?
2988
03:24:24,251 --> 03:24:28,959
Yes. It was cowardice.
2989
03:24:29,126 --> 03:24:31,542
I was young,
well, a little older than the others,
2990
03:24:31,709 --> 03:24:34,376
I was 24-25.
2991
03:24:34,542 --> 03:24:36,959
But I felt it was cowardice.
2992
03:24:37,126 --> 03:24:40,459
It's very hard, no question about it.
2993
03:24:40,626 --> 03:24:45,001
It's something that I still carry.
2994
03:24:46,626 --> 03:24:51,417
I put up French Algeria posters,
"Go with De Gaulle", etc.,
2995
03:24:51,584 --> 03:24:54,084
just find the posters of the time.
2996
03:24:54,251 --> 03:24:58,542
I mean, I never voted De Gaulle again.
Impossible.
2997
03:25:04,501 --> 03:25:09,042
Terrorism and OAS
2998
03:25:09,209 --> 03:25:13,834
News of the time, all clear
2999
03:25:14,001 --> 03:25:18,126
The truth about those years
3000
03:25:18,292 --> 03:25:24,167
Is still taboo
3001
03:25:24,334 --> 03:25:27,917
I prefer to stay
3002
03:25:28,084 --> 03:25:34,959
Awake
When I have nightmares, I see burning
3003
03:25:35,126 --> 03:25:39,167
The fire of embers
Kindles the hate
3004
03:25:39,334 --> 03:25:44,334
That was asleep in us
3005
03:25:44,501 --> 03:25:47,459
Everyone in the same boat
3006
03:25:47,626 --> 03:25:53,751
I prefer saboteurs
3007
03:25:53,917 --> 03:25:56,126
Algeria is beautiful
3008
03:25:56,292 --> 03:26:02,667
Yes, but seen from the Sacré-Coeur
3009
03:26:02,834 --> 03:26:05,917
Sixty, sixty-two
3010
03:26:06,084 --> 03:26:11,834
It kind of scares me
3011
03:26:12,001 --> 03:26:15,417
Sixty, sixty-two
3012
03:26:15,584 --> 03:26:21,167
There were not only rockers...
3013
03:26:21,334 --> 03:26:25,126
For two weeks, it didn't last long,
3014
03:26:25,292 --> 03:26:28,667
I had a section of Europeans,
3015
03:26:28,834 --> 03:26:32,417
and we were guards for the General,
3016
03:26:32,584 --> 03:26:36,042
and we went from Harkis
3017
03:26:36,209 --> 03:26:41,667
to anti-OAS, from one day to the next.
It couldn't work.
3018
03:26:41,834 --> 03:26:44,167
There were mishaps.
3019
03:26:44,334 --> 03:26:46,251
What does anti-OAS mean?
3020
03:26:46,417 --> 03:26:51,626
We joined the police in roundups,
really roundups.
3021
03:26:51,792 --> 03:26:58,584
And we took people to a camp,
20 or 30 clicks from Algiers.
3022
03:26:58,751 --> 03:27:01,209
- Europeans were rounded up?
- Europeans, yes.
3023
03:27:01,376 --> 03:27:04,959
And we had an incident
3024
03:27:05,126 --> 03:27:11,334
with another sub-lieutenant
who was with me in the company.
3025
03:27:11,501 --> 03:27:15,834
The OAS fired at the guards,
3026
03:27:16,001 --> 03:27:19,459
and we didn't defend the guardsmen.
3027
03:27:19,626 --> 03:27:22,042
- You saw them take fire?
- Right.
3028
03:27:22,209 --> 03:27:24,251
- And you didn't move?
- Not at all.
3029
03:27:24,417 --> 03:27:27,667
- You were on the OAS's side?
- Absolutely.
3030
03:27:27,834 --> 03:27:30,042
Not the OAS, I mean.
3031
03:27:30,209 --> 03:27:34,126
Did you understand the officers
who joined the OAS?
3032
03:27:34,292 --> 03:27:38,751
Absolutely. They were people of honor.
3033
03:27:38,917 --> 03:27:41,167
- Could you have done it?
- I could have.
3034
03:27:41,334 --> 03:27:47,584
I admit I was not much of a Gaullist
in the end.
3035
03:27:47,751 --> 03:27:52,542
The OAS shot draftees,
they killed soldiers.
3036
03:27:52,709 --> 03:27:57,042
No.
But Pieds-Noirs likes the OAS.
3037
03:27:57,209 --> 03:27:59,667
It makes sense.
3038
03:27:59,834 --> 03:28:06,042
They defended their territory,
because I say that Algeria was the land
3039
03:28:06,209 --> 03:28:07,751
of Pieds-Noirs, not ours.
3040
03:28:07,917 --> 03:28:10,709
It was crazy at the time.
3041
03:28:13,042 --> 03:28:18,042
The OAS's strategy consisting
3042
03:28:18,209 --> 03:28:21,459
of encouraging massacres by Arabs
3043
03:28:21,626 --> 03:28:27,167
against Europeans,
so that the army would turn
3044
03:28:27,334 --> 03:28:31,917
against the Arabs,
to ultimately sabotage the ceasefire.
3045
03:28:32,084 --> 03:28:34,667
But this strategy,
3046
03:28:34,834 --> 03:28:38,459
I realized after the fact,
after I thought about it,
3047
03:28:38,626 --> 03:28:42,251
in the moment, it's about action,
you don't really think...
3048
03:28:42,417 --> 03:28:45,626
What did you think about these attacks?
3049
03:28:45,792 --> 03:28:47,751
It was horrible.
3050
03:28:47,917 --> 03:28:51,876
There a scene I still remember...
3051
03:28:54,084 --> 03:29:00,042
The OAS had locked Arabs
in their neighborhood,
3052
03:29:00,209 --> 03:29:04,751
and there was an announcement.
3053
03:29:04,917 --> 03:29:10,709
The Arabs were forbidden
to go to European districts.
3054
03:29:12,417 --> 03:29:17,834
And a 50 to 60-year-old Arab
went out
3055
03:29:18,001 --> 03:29:22,459
to get food, obviously, and he was
3056
03:29:22,626 --> 03:29:25,084
gunned down by a kid
right in front of us.
3057
03:29:26,376 --> 03:29:32,834
Point blank, his brains splattered
on the bag of meat.
3058
03:29:33,001 --> 03:29:37,042
We got close to him,
a police truck arrived,
3059
03:29:37,209 --> 03:29:40,584
or guards, they arrived when I did.
3060
03:29:40,751 --> 03:29:46,959
So we call in the man's death,
and they said, "Who's taking the meat?"
3061
03:29:50,751 --> 03:29:55,834
There were disgusting things.
3062
03:29:56,001 --> 03:29:58,501
It was crazy.
3063
03:29:58,667 --> 03:30:02,126
At the time,
the local forces was supposed
3064
03:30:02,292 --> 03:30:06,667
to maintain order in Algiers.
Local forces were a mix...
3065
03:30:06,834 --> 03:30:10,584
You had to be crazy. Former Harkis',
3066
03:30:10,751 --> 03:30:17,667
guys who wanted to redeem themselves
in the eyes of the FLN, French military.
3067
03:30:17,834 --> 03:30:23,251
The chain of command was
3068
03:30:23,417 --> 03:30:29,876
completely unclear, not well defined.
French officers would defect to the FLN.
3069
03:30:30,042 --> 03:30:35,667
Especially... and... They were
incapable of maintaining order.
3070
03:30:35,834 --> 03:30:39,876
The OAS were the last piece of ammo,
3071
03:30:40,042 --> 03:30:44,251
commandos who had nothing left to lose.
3072
03:30:45,501 --> 03:30:48,167
- Did you understand them?
- Not at all.
3073
03:30:48,334 --> 03:30:51,709
Not then, I no longer followed them.
3074
03:30:51,876 --> 03:30:53,542
Until when did you follow them?
3075
03:30:54,709 --> 03:30:58,542
Until the moment I became
aware of the problem.
3076
03:30:58,709 --> 03:31:02,167
They'd launched a fuel truck...
3077
03:31:02,334 --> 03:31:05,667
That was reported to me,
I didn't see it personally.
3078
03:31:05,834 --> 03:31:10,251
They launched a fuel truck,
blocking the steering,
3079
03:31:10,417 --> 03:31:12,667
on shantytowns.
3080
03:31:12,834 --> 03:31:16,126
They planted bombs in the port.
3081
03:31:16,292 --> 03:31:19,459
Bombs every day.
3082
03:31:19,626 --> 03:31:21,751
Algiers was crazy.
3083
03:31:21,917 --> 03:31:25,667
Sixteen-year-old kids had weapons
and fired.
3084
03:31:25,834 --> 03:31:28,917
It was insane.
3085
03:31:29,084 --> 03:31:33,876
At that point, did you still believe
in a French Algeria?
3086
03:31:34,042 --> 03:31:38,876
Yes, because it was... Yes.
3087
03:31:39,042 --> 03:31:45,251
Yes, but to stop believing
I had to come home.
3088
03:31:45,417 --> 03:31:47,834
I had to see we couldn't
3089
03:31:48,001 --> 03:31:52,459
integrate, mix,
3090
03:31:53,417 --> 03:31:56,834
such different populations.
3091
03:31:57,001 --> 03:32:00,042
You need perspective
in order to judge.
3092
03:32:00,209 --> 03:32:02,501
When you're 20 years old...
3093
03:32:02,667 --> 03:32:07,834
When you're in action,
you have no perspective.
3094
03:32:08,001 --> 03:32:12,792
And in Algiers at that time,
did you also witness FLN abuse?
3095
03:32:12,959 --> 03:32:14,834
Many, yes.
3096
03:32:15,001 --> 03:32:19,834
There were kidnappings,
disappearances, I saw from up-close
3097
03:32:20,001 --> 03:32:22,251
at the Second Bureau.
3098
03:32:22,417 --> 03:32:25,042
Both sides were equally barbaric.
3099
03:32:25,209 --> 03:32:29,834
One day, early in the morning,
we saw people
3100
03:32:30,001 --> 03:32:33,959
who had joined their villages,
3101
03:32:34,126 --> 03:32:38,126
and these people were marching
3102
03:32:38,292 --> 03:32:40,959
on the road we were on,
3103
03:32:41,126 --> 03:32:42,751
with weapons.
3104
03:32:42,917 --> 03:32:46,709
It was the army, the ALN,
the Liberation Army,
3105
03:32:46,876 --> 03:32:52,917
that was marching in front
of the French posts.
3106
03:32:53,084 --> 03:32:57,584
And we were inside, we didn't know
what would happen, battle stations.
3107
03:32:57,751 --> 03:33:02,876
Then we got the order
to lay down our weapons.
3108
03:33:03,042 --> 03:33:07,751
And then we got the order
3109
03:33:07,917 --> 03:33:12,751
to report to Algiers.
For us it was Algiers, for others, Oran.
3110
03:33:12,917 --> 03:33:17,876
And at that point, there was
3111
03:33:19,126 --> 03:33:25,084
the issue of the Algerian-French.
3112
03:33:25,251 --> 03:33:30,251
Algerian-French,
because they served in the French Army.
3113
03:33:30,417 --> 03:33:34,042
They were asked to make a choice.
3114
03:33:34,209 --> 03:33:38,042
Either stay in the French Army
or join the ranks of the ALN.
3115
03:33:38,209 --> 03:33:42,251
So there was a citizenship problem,
and many of them,
3116
03:33:42,417 --> 03:33:45,251
the majority, I'd say,
3117
03:33:45,417 --> 03:33:50,876
these people left the French Army
to join the ranks of the ALN.
3118
03:33:51,042 --> 03:33:54,459
For us, it was very serious.
3119
03:33:54,626 --> 03:33:57,917
It was unthinkable, impossible.
3120
03:33:58,084 --> 03:34:02,251
We had lived with these friends,
they were soldiers like us.
3121
03:34:02,417 --> 03:34:09,251
We shared everything with them,
and they left us for the other side.
3122
03:34:09,417 --> 03:34:12,251
When we had to report to Algiers,
3123
03:34:12,417 --> 03:34:15,251
of course there were convoys,
we were ordered
3124
03:34:15,417 --> 03:34:18,459
to demolish everything that belonged
to the army.
3125
03:34:18,626 --> 03:34:21,126
We demolished everything we could.
3126
03:34:21,292 --> 03:34:26,584
Then the convoys came together,
and we drove to Algiers.
3127
03:34:26,751 --> 03:34:33,042
All along the way we were checked
by ALN personnel.
3128
03:34:33,209 --> 03:34:38,459
And an anecdote... At a check point,
3129
03:34:38,626 --> 03:34:43,709
in front of us, we had...
In front of me, I had
3130
03:34:43,876 --> 03:34:47,459
one of my station mates,
from the country,
3131
03:34:47,626 --> 03:34:51,709
who was in the ALN ranks.
He inspected us,
3132
03:34:51,876 --> 03:34:55,459
threatened us with weapons,
searched us...
3133
03:34:55,626 --> 03:35:00,251
He was acting as a police officer
for the ALN,
3134
03:35:00,417 --> 03:35:03,001
when 48 hours before,
he was with us.
3135
03:35:03,167 --> 03:35:05,209
Did you talk to him?
3136
03:35:05,376 --> 03:35:07,459
Well, I tried, yes.
3137
03:35:07,626 --> 03:35:13,667
But I'd say I was facing a stranger.
3138
03:35:13,834 --> 03:35:17,251
A boy I shared my packages with.
3139
03:35:17,417 --> 03:35:21,376
He was a very good friend.
3140
03:35:21,542 --> 03:35:23,667
That day, I was facing a stranger.
3141
03:35:23,834 --> 03:35:28,459
It was a soldier from the Algerian Army
3142
03:35:28,626 --> 03:35:33,042
who was inspecting us, armed.
And we were unarmed, of course.
3143
03:35:33,209 --> 03:35:36,042
You had the feeling
that he'd deceived you all that time.
3144
03:35:36,209 --> 03:35:38,251
It was very hard.
3145
03:35:38,417 --> 03:35:41,251
And I think he deceived us
during all that time, yes.
3146
03:35:42,001 --> 03:35:44,751
Did you see the ALN entering Algiers?
3147
03:35:44,917 --> 03:35:46,459
Yes.
3148
03:35:47,667 --> 03:35:51,792
I was one of the few Europeans
who were there,
3149
03:35:53,001 --> 03:35:57,667
because when the Moroccan troops
arrived in Algiers,
3150
03:35:57,834 --> 03:36:03,251
with Boumediene and Benbellah,
the city was insane.
3151
03:36:03,417 --> 03:36:06,251
I was a kid when France was liberated,
3152
03:36:06,417 --> 03:36:10,042
and the crowd was crazy and hysterical.
3153
03:36:10,209 --> 03:36:13,584
I was little, I was seven in '44.
3154
03:36:13,751 --> 03:36:19,042
But I remember well,
it was the same thing.
3155
03:36:19,209 --> 03:36:22,251
The women's ululations...
3156
03:36:22,417 --> 03:36:26,792
Muslim women's ululations were
something, everyone goes into a trance.
3157
03:36:26,959 --> 03:36:30,084
I went in uniform.
3158
03:36:30,251 --> 03:36:34,084
We were not attacked.
3159
03:36:34,251 --> 03:36:36,834
There were two of us,
I was with my driver.
3160
03:36:37,001 --> 03:36:39,876
They probably looked at us sideways,
3161
03:36:40,042 --> 03:36:42,709
because the guys didn't understand.
3162
03:36:42,876 --> 03:36:44,876
But nothing happened to us.
3163
03:36:45,042 --> 03:36:50,084
How did a French officer feel seeing
the FLN flag being flown in Algiers?
3164
03:36:51,626 --> 03:36:55,459
You cut yourself out. It's impossible.
3165
03:36:55,626 --> 03:36:57,042
You, you...
3166
03:36:58,209 --> 03:37:03,334
If you caught a guy with the flag
six months before you'd shoot him,
3167
03:37:03,501 --> 03:37:07,542
and now they were
all over the streets. So...
3168
03:37:07,709 --> 03:37:10,917
How can you feel about it?
3169
03:37:11,084 --> 03:37:14,084
You realize that you went through
something useless.
3170
03:37:14,251 --> 03:37:17,667
When they took down the French flags
to put up the other ones,
3171
03:37:17,834 --> 03:37:19,584
it did something to your heart.
3172
03:37:19,751 --> 03:37:22,334
What made a big impression on me is
when I saw... The ALN
3173
03:37:22,501 --> 03:37:26,542
were wearing fatigues of a different color,
that was not it. It was the flags.
3174
03:37:26,709 --> 03:37:30,876
I saw the ALN flags around us,
and it felt weird.
3175
03:37:32,084 --> 03:37:37,709
I saw guys risking their lives
3176
03:37:37,876 --> 03:37:42,084
to get a flag that represented nothing.
3177
03:37:42,251 --> 03:37:47,417
I thought it was utterly ridiculous,
and when I saw the Fells
3178
03:37:47,584 --> 03:37:51,667
roll out with Jeeps
and the Fell flags inside,
3179
03:37:51,834 --> 03:37:53,667
I was...
3180
03:37:53,834 --> 03:37:58,542
How did it feel to see
the repatriates leave?
3181
03:37:58,709 --> 03:38:00,876
How did it feel
3182
03:38:01,042 --> 03:38:05,334
to see guys who leave with nothing,
with their kids crying,
3183
03:38:05,501 --> 03:38:08,042
whom you help with their move.
3184
03:38:08,209 --> 03:38:11,834
Because we set up,
I set up a unit of guys
3185
03:38:12,001 --> 03:38:16,376
to help the men move,
the repatriates.
3186
03:38:16,542 --> 03:38:22,126
They put their luggage in containers,
and in Algiers the containers
3187
03:38:22,292 --> 03:38:25,501
were dipped in the sea before
being put on the boats.
3188
03:38:25,667 --> 03:38:31,042
Yeah. How can it feel to know
3189
03:38:31,209 --> 03:38:36,126
that French soldiers
were being kidnapped and...
3190
03:38:36,292 --> 03:38:40,167
through intelligence I received
at the Second Bureau, I knew
3191
03:38:40,334 --> 03:38:42,959
that some used them as whores?
3192
03:38:43,126 --> 03:38:46,876
How does it feel to see
3193
03:38:47,042 --> 03:38:51,751
crying mothers
with their kids and suitcases?
3194
03:38:51,917 --> 03:38:57,251
And on the other side, how does it feel
to see an Arab being shot point blank,
3195
03:38:57,417 --> 03:39:02,626
a poor guy who wants to feed his family?
How do you think it feels?
3196
03:39:02,792 --> 03:39:08,751
Huh? You change overnight,
minute to minute,
3197
03:39:08,917 --> 03:39:10,209
you live through that shit.
3198
03:39:10,376 --> 03:39:15,251
At that time, I found myself
confirming my desire to be a doctor,
3199
03:39:15,417 --> 03:39:17,917
in opposition, in several occasions
3200
03:39:18,084 --> 03:39:21,542
against army heads
who stayed in their offices,
3201
03:39:21,709 --> 03:39:24,042
and who didn't take
responsibility for anything.
3202
03:39:24,209 --> 03:39:28,001
They didn't treat, they were military
doctors who managed their office.
3203
03:39:28,167 --> 03:39:30,584
I was asked
to abandon and destroy everything.
3204
03:39:30,751 --> 03:39:33,042
Practically, it amounted to manufacturing
3205
03:39:33,209 --> 03:39:35,876
in a completely artificial
and deliberate manner.
3206
03:39:36,042 --> 03:39:39,751
Tuberculosis,
infectious diseases, epidemics.
3207
03:39:39,917 --> 03:39:42,084
Because I treated chronic diseases,
3208
03:39:42,251 --> 03:39:44,042
TB patients.
If I destroyed the files,
3209
03:39:44,209 --> 03:39:49,376
I would create a primary infection
epidemic. And it was impossible
3210
03:39:49,542 --> 03:39:51,792
- with the means...
- Where did that order come from?
3211
03:39:51,959 --> 03:39:54,917
From the army.
I was told to stop everything
3212
03:39:55,084 --> 03:39:58,667
and to leave everything in place.
The files were lost.
3213
03:39:58,834 --> 03:40:00,917
If I didn't transfer the files,
3214
03:40:01,084 --> 03:40:04,376
I would have left hundreds of patients
without treatment,
3215
03:40:04,542 --> 03:40:08,251
meaning their tuberculosis would evolve,
and they would become contagious
3216
03:40:08,417 --> 03:40:11,251
for children and people
3217
03:40:11,417 --> 03:40:15,251
surrounding them.
It was a catastrophic situation.
3218
03:40:15,417 --> 03:40:17,209
In addition to the lack of treatment.
3219
03:40:17,376 --> 03:40:22,334
One morning, my driver told me
3220
03:40:22,501 --> 03:40:27,042
the ALN settled in the village,
a little town actually,
3221
03:40:27,209 --> 03:40:30,834
and he told me that,
only at the beginning
3222
03:40:31,001 --> 03:40:33,917
that the transmission would take place.
3223
03:40:34,084 --> 03:40:37,167
So we...
The scene was extraordinary,
3224
03:40:37,334 --> 03:40:40,334
it was very moving,
3225
03:40:40,501 --> 03:40:43,751
it felt like I was ending
my stay in Algeria.
3226
03:40:43,917 --> 03:40:47,126
I had stayed true to my ethics
3227
03:40:47,292 --> 03:40:52,126
and to the constraints that were
imposed on me,
3228
03:40:52,292 --> 03:40:57,751
and when I arrived in the village
3229
03:40:57,917 --> 03:41:03,959
on the edge of the mountains, there
were hairpin bends, I remember well.
3230
03:41:04,126 --> 03:41:07,876
My ambulance slowed down,
and you entered the town
3231
03:41:08,042 --> 03:41:12,834
on a big... a kind of boulevard...
An avenue, with trees.
3232
03:41:13,001 --> 03:41:16,376
I still see this avenue with white houses
on each side.
3233
03:41:16,542 --> 03:41:22,334
And at the end of this avenue,
on the left, there was the clinic.
3234
03:41:22,501 --> 03:41:26,459
And when we arrived,
the streets were deserted,
3235
03:41:26,626 --> 03:41:29,459
which shocked me,
because it was usually crowded.
3236
03:41:29,626 --> 03:41:35,542
Streets were empty, blinds closed.
And almost at every tree, there were
3237
03:41:35,709 --> 03:41:38,459
uh, a...
3238
03:41:40,251 --> 03:41:43,917
men each wearing a burnous,
their back to me,
3239
03:41:44,084 --> 03:41:50,459
the burnous covering their heads.
And this burnous hid weapons.
3240
03:41:50,626 --> 03:41:53,459
They carried weapons,
they were soldiers.
3241
03:41:53,626 --> 03:41:57,167
And I wondered what they were doing,
and he said, "It's for you."
3242
03:41:57,334 --> 03:41:59,792
Turns out the ALN was still covering me.
3243
03:41:59,959 --> 03:42:04,042
They were looking toward the windows,
3244
03:42:04,209 --> 03:42:08,542
they looked at the population,
a bit like for a public figure,
3245
03:42:08,709 --> 03:42:12,792
their back to the public figure,
which was me, I was on the front line.
3246
03:42:12,959 --> 03:42:17,751
And I arrived with the ambulance,
and getting out,
3247
03:42:17,917 --> 03:42:22,251
I am welcomed by men in uniforms
on the front steps,
3248
03:42:22,417 --> 03:42:27,042
in kakis, in combat uniform,
the joint chiefs of staff were there,
3249
03:42:27,209 --> 03:42:28,792
not only the doctor,
3250
03:42:29,959 --> 03:42:32,792
and they saluted me.
3251
03:42:34,042 --> 03:42:36,709
- And you saluted too?
- I did.
3252
03:42:36,876 --> 03:42:39,917
I was in uniform, so I saluted back.
3253
03:42:40,084 --> 03:42:43,501
And I entered the clinic
with the doctor only,
3254
03:42:43,667 --> 03:42:48,459
who introduced himself, he'd studied
in France, his French was perfect.
3255
03:42:48,626 --> 03:42:53,542
He apologized for coming so late,
he said he was in Siddi Bel-Abbes.
3256
03:42:53,709 --> 03:42:56,334
I turned over the files,
which took a while.
3257
03:42:56,501 --> 03:43:02,042
I gave him all my files.
He thanked me.
3258
03:43:02,209 --> 03:43:07,042
And the population wanted
to offer me a parting gift.
3259
03:43:07,209 --> 03:43:12,876
They wanted to offer me
a portable surgery kit
3260
03:43:13,042 --> 03:43:18,542
from the clinic, which I refused.
They really needed the equipment.
3261
03:43:18,709 --> 03:43:24,959
And with a wink, he took me
to the infamous ALN infirmary
3262
03:43:25,126 --> 03:43:28,001
which we'd looked for a long time,
that was in the village.
3263
03:43:28,167 --> 03:43:30,126
An underground infirmary.
3264
03:43:30,292 --> 03:43:33,334
There was a pharmacy,
medical equipment.
3265
03:43:33,501 --> 03:43:37,001
I found Chinese morphine,
3266
03:43:37,167 --> 03:43:40,751
equipment from all over the world.
3267
03:43:40,917 --> 03:43:46,126
It was hidden behind a wall.
There was a house with a moving wall,
3268
03:43:46,292 --> 03:43:49,292
and you entered a room in the back.
3269
03:43:49,459 --> 03:43:53,917
It was an additional side clinic
3270
03:43:54,084 --> 03:43:56,084
for military use.
3271
03:43:57,251 --> 03:44:00,084
And then I said goodbye.
3272
03:44:01,334 --> 03:44:07,876
There was a sort of agreement.
I only shook hands with the doctor,
3273
03:44:08,042 --> 03:44:13,084
not with the others.
That's how it happened.
3274
03:44:13,251 --> 03:44:18,042
On the way back,
the ambulance brought me back,
3275
03:44:19,751 --> 03:44:26,376
and...
Actually, it's very painful because...
3276
03:44:28,917 --> 03:44:32,334
Every time I tell this story,
I feel awful stress.
3277
03:44:34,584 --> 03:44:38,834
And I can't... I can't finish.
3278
03:44:43,917 --> 03:44:46,126
Maybe I could pick it up again.
3279
03:44:46,292 --> 03:44:47,876
Cut.
3280
03:44:49,417 --> 03:44:52,001
My departure was very moving.
3281
03:44:52,167 --> 03:44:56,584
On the avenue on my way out...
3282
03:44:58,084 --> 03:45:01,542
the soldiers of the ALN
3283
03:45:01,709 --> 03:45:08,126
faced me and presented their arms to me.
3284
03:45:10,001 --> 03:45:12,626
They had uncovered their heads.
3285
03:45:14,084 --> 03:45:16,959
And it was like that for 150 yards.
3286
03:45:19,709 --> 03:45:22,084
The farewell to Algeria.
3287
03:45:25,334 --> 03:45:28,959
When men will live out of love
3288
03:45:29,126 --> 03:45:32,834
There will be no more misery
3289
03:45:33,001 --> 03:45:36,834
Soldiers will be troubadours
3290
03:45:37,001 --> 03:45:41,667
But we will be dead, my brother
3291
03:45:41,834 --> 03:45:45,292
On the great path of life
3292
03:45:45,459 --> 03:45:48,959
That we had to follow
3293
03:45:49,126 --> 03:45:52,751
Where we had to be
3294
03:45:52,917 --> 03:45:57,292
We received the bad part
3295
03:45:58,042 --> 03:46:01,584
When men will live out of love
3296
03:46:01,751 --> 03:46:05,626
There will be no more misery
3297
03:46:05,792 --> 03:46:09,626
Soldiers will be troubadours
3298
03:46:09,792 --> 03:46:14,501
But we will be dead, my brother
3299
03:46:14,667 --> 03:46:18,126
When men will live out of love
3300
03:46:18,292 --> 03:46:22,167
There will be no more misery
3301
03:46:22,334 --> 03:46:27,709
How will be the sweet days then
3302
03:46:27,876 --> 03:46:34,459
But we will be dead, my brother
3303
03:46:44,959 --> 03:46:49,709
I arrived at 2 a.m. My mother opened
the window, she saw me,
3304
03:46:49,876 --> 03:46:55,167
"What do you want, sir?" Then
she recognized me. I said, "Come on!"
3305
03:46:55,334 --> 03:46:58,834
She didn't recognize me,
I had a beard,
3306
03:46:59,001 --> 03:47:04,042
I was skinny as a needle,
I probably weighed, I don't know,
3307
03:47:04,209 --> 03:47:06,376
one-thirty-five, one-forty.
3308
03:47:06,542 --> 03:47:11,792
When I walked through the village, no one
recognized me. "Who's that tramp?"
3309
03:47:11,959 --> 03:47:18,459
It took me a year to get back
to an active life.
3310
03:47:18,626 --> 03:47:23,459
I remember in Grenoble's street,
the first days,
3311
03:47:23,626 --> 03:47:28,251
the slightest motorcycle noise
made me jumped. I heard gun shots.
3312
03:47:28,417 --> 03:47:32,876
At night, I would wake up.
I thought, "It's over, you're here now."
3313
03:47:33,042 --> 03:47:36,542
Back in Grenoble, in the beginning,
there were three things.
3314
03:47:36,709 --> 03:47:40,334
I was surprised there were
no double bends in every village.
3315
03:47:40,501 --> 03:47:44,167
Constantly watching the ridge lines,
the mountain.
3316
03:47:44,334 --> 03:47:47,459
We'd say, "Did you see those guys?"
The Mergers,
3317
03:47:47,626 --> 03:47:51,667
the guys from Merlin Gerin in the office,
didn't see anything.
3318
03:47:51,834 --> 03:47:56,459
And we saw the guys walking around.
Even now,
3319
03:47:56,626 --> 03:47:58,917
we follow the peaks.
3320
03:47:59,084 --> 03:48:01,751
And the third thing were ambushes.
3321
03:48:01,917 --> 03:48:04,542
The Gorges de la Bournes
and the Gorges d'Engin
3322
03:48:04,709 --> 03:48:08,459
with all these holes, a narrow road,
3323
03:48:08,626 --> 03:48:12,667
you always feel
like you are ready to bolt
3324
03:48:12,834 --> 03:48:17,542
and to brace yourself, the feeling
of being unsafe. It lasted a long time.
3325
03:48:17,709 --> 03:48:22,167
I left as a healthy 25-year-old,
3326
03:48:22,334 --> 03:48:26,251
and I think I came back sick.
3327
03:48:26,417 --> 03:48:30,126
During this Algerian War,
I think there was
3328
03:48:30,292 --> 03:48:33,917
a psychological break in me,
3329
03:48:34,084 --> 03:48:36,876
which made me come back
as an anxious person.
3330
03:48:37,042 --> 03:48:41,042
When I was released,
everything we did
3331
03:48:41,209 --> 03:48:45,751
stayed with me,
and at night, I had nightmares.
3332
03:48:45,917 --> 03:48:49,251
- I don't know if it happened to you.
- You got startled in bed.
3333
03:48:49,417 --> 03:48:53,042
Yes, naturally.
I was still in ambush mode, as we say.
3334
03:48:53,209 --> 03:48:55,126
You were still in an ambush?
- Right.
3335
03:48:55,292 --> 03:48:57,876
- Did it last long?
- About ten years.
3336
03:48:58,042 --> 03:49:00,542
You remembered things that came back,
3337
03:49:00,709 --> 03:49:04,126
things that happened there,
the ambushes.
3338
03:49:04,292 --> 03:49:09,251
When we watched the farm
we heard the storks all night,
3339
03:49:09,417 --> 03:49:12,834
the beaks chattering all night,
we heard...
3340
03:49:13,001 --> 03:49:18,667
All night and...
That stayed with me.
3341
03:49:18,834 --> 03:49:22,751
Sometimes I see those storks
on the tall trees,
3342
03:49:22,917 --> 03:49:27,709
the eucalyptuses that were huge,
3343
03:49:27,876 --> 03:49:30,917
maybe 150 feet high,
covered in storks.
3344
03:49:32,334 --> 03:49:33,959
They would chatter all night.
3345
03:49:34,126 --> 03:49:36,459
Coming back from those 30 months
in the army,
3346
03:49:36,626 --> 03:49:40,459
like a lot of colleagues,
I had six terrible months
3347
03:49:40,626 --> 03:49:42,459
of total instability.
3348
03:49:42,626 --> 03:49:46,042
I recently talked about it with my wife
who was my fiancée then,
3349
03:49:46,209 --> 03:49:48,667
she said I was unbearable.
3350
03:49:48,834 --> 03:49:51,751
I couldn't stand any remarks.
3351
03:49:51,917 --> 03:49:56,459
I must have been going through
a management crisis.
3352
03:49:56,626 --> 03:50:00,667
I suddenly had to obey. Probably.
3353
03:50:00,834 --> 03:50:04,126
And I'd say that's when I really started...
3354
03:50:04,292 --> 03:50:07,292
Today, in hindsight,
3355
03:50:07,459 --> 03:50:12,167
that's when I said,
I need to exploit this,
3356
03:50:12,334 --> 03:50:14,084
and I acquired a taste for leadership.
3357
03:50:14,251 --> 03:50:18,584
When I arrived,
I remember throwing a tantrum.
3358
03:50:18,751 --> 03:50:22,917
I came home late January, and late
February, less than a month later,
3359
03:50:23,084 --> 03:50:26,751
I'd never worked,
I didn't know what it was.
3360
03:50:26,917 --> 03:50:30,876
The nation took care of me, since
I got a letter from the tax administration.
3361
03:50:31,042 --> 03:50:35,251
I didn't even know what an auditor was.
3362
03:50:35,417 --> 03:50:38,042
And I received a letter saying
I owed 950 francs
3363
03:50:38,209 --> 03:50:42,251
and some change on what
I had earned during the war.
3364
03:50:42,417 --> 03:50:46,167
And considering the losses
we had in 1958
3365
03:50:46,334 --> 03:50:49,667
in the 18th RCP,
I thought the blood tax... my God...
3366
03:50:49,834 --> 03:50:53,334
And coming home to that
without asking if I'd found a job,
3367
03:50:53,501 --> 03:50:55,209
I thought it was very hard.
3368
03:50:55,376 --> 03:51:01,459
I had an experience after the war
3369
03:51:01,626 --> 03:51:04,834
that really shows the stupidity of war.
3370
03:51:05,001 --> 03:51:08,126
I used to play rugby then,
3371
03:51:09,417 --> 03:51:14,459
in a college team.
3372
03:51:14,626 --> 03:51:19,126
After the game, there's always
a third half-time.
3373
03:51:20,417 --> 03:51:27,417
And at the time, after my return,
when I drank a bit, I spoke Kabyle.
3374
03:51:28,917 --> 03:51:33,417
And in the university bar,
I spoke Kabyle,
3375
03:51:33,584 --> 03:51:37,167
and a guy came to me saying,
"You speak Kabyle," etc.
3376
03:51:37,334 --> 03:51:41,084
We talked, he was a Fell sub-lieutenant
3377
03:51:41,251 --> 03:51:45,376
of commandos in my sector.
3378
03:51:45,542 --> 03:51:50,084
We shared our mutual ambushes.
3379
03:51:50,251 --> 03:51:54,626
We all went to my place
with the rugby team.
3380
03:51:55,626 --> 03:51:59,292
I had a car accident on the way,
3381
03:51:59,459 --> 03:52:02,834
the other driver attacked me
because I was
3382
03:52:03,001 --> 03:52:06,126
with an Arab, to him,
but I was with a Kabyle.
3383
03:52:06,292 --> 03:52:10,376
I kicked his ass to defend a Kabyle.
3384
03:52:11,751 --> 03:52:16,834
And if we'd met six months earlier,
we wouldn't have spared each other.
3385
03:52:17,001 --> 03:52:22,001
Coming home, there was no job.
3386
03:52:23,626 --> 03:52:30,001
I was angry, you see.
I don't know what I would have done...
3387
03:52:33,834 --> 03:52:37,376
Well... Thanks to my family,
3388
03:52:37,542 --> 03:52:41,251
and to my fiancée at the time,
3389
03:52:41,417 --> 03:52:44,626
I managed to find a job
in another company.
3390
03:52:44,792 --> 03:52:48,751
I went back to an almost normal life.
3391
03:52:48,917 --> 03:52:54,459
And I think that marriage
3392
03:52:54,626 --> 03:52:56,542
helped me to forget a little.
3393
03:52:57,626 --> 03:53:02,667
But I still have flashbacks.
3394
03:53:02,834 --> 03:53:08,376
All of them are from where I almost died,
and I was lucky.
3395
03:53:08,542 --> 03:53:13,376
It was hard, especially in the beginning,
for two or three months.
3396
03:53:13,542 --> 03:53:17,584
The movie ran in your head.
3397
03:53:17,751 --> 03:53:23,334
You thought about your mates,
we parted on a platform in Marseille.
3398
03:53:24,626 --> 03:53:28,542
But on the other hand,
I found it hard.
3399
03:53:28,709 --> 03:53:30,667
When I came back,
many things had changed,
3400
03:53:30,834 --> 03:53:36,251
because in three years
things change.
3401
03:53:36,417 --> 03:53:43,251
On the other hand,
paratroopers were not liked here.
3402
03:53:43,417 --> 03:53:46,167
In some age brackets,
some would say...
3403
03:53:46,334 --> 03:53:49,542
They'd say,
"Oh, a paratrooper, you shed blood."
3404
03:53:49,709 --> 03:53:53,584
Yeah. When you come back to that...
3405
03:53:53,751 --> 03:53:57,959
But I do regret one thing,
I was told I'd regret returning your kit.
3406
03:53:58,126 --> 03:54:02,501
It's true, if I'd stayed, I would
be retired without another war.
3407
03:54:02,667 --> 03:54:06,459
I came home, some friends hadn't gone,
they'd managed
3408
03:54:06,626 --> 03:54:11,042
to be exempted from service.
3409
03:54:11,209 --> 03:54:14,292
Everyone had kept living their lives,
going to parties.
3410
03:54:14,459 --> 03:54:16,917
You really felt disconnected then.
3411
03:54:17,084 --> 03:54:21,959
You really had the feeling
that the French didn't
3412
03:54:22,126 --> 03:54:27,042
know much about the Algeria War.
They see a few Fellaghas, some rifles.
3413
03:54:27,209 --> 03:54:30,751
I've seen up to 22 planes supporting us.
3414
03:54:30,917 --> 03:54:34,501
In hindsight, do you think
you waged a useless war?
3415
03:54:35,251 --> 03:54:38,834
Certainly, because in the end,
the solution was
3416
03:54:39,001 --> 03:54:41,876
the one that was asked for
in November 1954.
3417
03:54:42,042 --> 03:54:44,084
The deaths were useless.
3418
03:54:44,251 --> 03:54:47,459
But the war we did, no,
because it was not just war.
3419
03:54:47,626 --> 03:54:50,751
We built... I showed you this.
3420
03:54:50,917 --> 03:54:55,459
We built entire villages.
We brought tons of things, built hospitals.
3421
03:54:55,626 --> 03:54:58,709
Is that useless? Certainly not.
3422
03:54:58,876 --> 03:55:03,042
I think it is the foundation
of what you can do for a civilization.
3423
03:55:03,209 --> 03:55:07,417
We brought civilization,
we showed it. This is still there.
3424
03:55:07,584 --> 03:55:11,001
It still exists, it wasn't destroyed.
Maybe it's poorly used.
3425
03:55:11,167 --> 03:55:13,834
I think we were morons.
3426
03:55:14,001 --> 03:55:18,084
Because we went there, and left
everything for nothing, 30,000 mates.
3427
03:55:18,251 --> 03:55:21,501
Without counting the wounded,
about 300,000 thousand wounded.
3428
03:55:21,667 --> 03:55:24,459
All those who are still
bearing the consequences.
3429
03:55:24,626 --> 03:55:29,751
And I say that...
In addition to that, we are ignored.
3430
03:55:29,917 --> 03:55:33,167
Now. You have to recognize
we are completely ignored.
3431
03:55:33,334 --> 03:55:35,709
Veterans are morons to them.
3432
03:55:36,709 --> 03:55:38,834
The number of casualties
is regrettable...
3433
03:55:39,001 --> 03:55:45,042
but the conclusion is
that we stayed for nothing.
3434
03:55:47,126 --> 03:55:48,959
No...
3435
03:55:51,667 --> 03:55:56,667
We became wealthy in memories,
some happy, some sad.
3436
03:55:56,834 --> 03:55:59,751
But in terms of results,
no, it was useless.
3437
03:55:59,917 --> 03:56:03,584
How do you explain that
the Algerian War is seldom discussed?
3438
03:56:03,751 --> 03:56:07,792
Because the French are ashamed.
Of what happened, what they believed,
3439
03:56:07,959 --> 03:56:09,959
of what they didn't do.
3440
03:56:10,126 --> 03:56:13,042
And ashamed of their lack of reaction,
as it often happens.
3441
03:56:13,209 --> 03:56:15,667
In '45, few French people were
3442
03:56:15,834 --> 03:56:19,126
proud of what happened
between 1940 and 1945.
3443
03:56:19,292 --> 03:56:22,292
I'd say it's the same thing.
They are ashamed
3444
03:56:22,459 --> 03:56:24,209
and don't discuss it.
3445
03:56:24,376 --> 03:56:29,334
I was part of the body of teachers
who had taught
3446
03:56:29,501 --> 03:56:33,126
generations of French citizens
that Algeria
3447
03:56:33,292 --> 03:56:38,667
was a French territory.
I felt it remained
3448
03:56:38,834 --> 03:56:43,876
very present
in the French subconscious.
3449
03:56:44,042 --> 03:56:47,542
We couldn't have fought a war
since we were defending the French land.
3450
03:56:47,709 --> 03:56:50,209
What do you think you've learned
during this war?
3451
03:56:51,417 --> 03:56:56,959
Well, for me, I can't say I suffered
excessively.
3452
03:56:57,126 --> 03:57:01,251
However, I left as a student,
3453
03:57:01,417 --> 03:57:07,751
I ended up being in charge
of 30 guys.
3454
03:57:07,917 --> 03:57:10,709
I had to deal with civilians.
3455
03:57:10,876 --> 03:57:14,876
I had practically, like all
the sub-lieutenants at the time,
3456
03:57:15,042 --> 03:57:19,751
full powers, well, that's how it felt.
3457
03:57:19,917 --> 03:57:24,501
I felt I went from a typical adolescence
3458
03:57:24,667 --> 03:57:28,667
to adulthood.
That's why, in hindsight, I don't regret
3459
03:57:28,834 --> 03:57:30,417
my Algerian period, if you will.
3460
03:57:30,584 --> 03:57:34,459
I was never again given
the responsibilities I had when I was 23,
3461
03:57:34,626 --> 03:57:37,667
the freedom I had at the time.
3462
03:57:37,834 --> 03:57:44,667
I learned a lot.
There's a price to pay but...
3463
03:57:44,834 --> 03:57:46,584
I learned a lot, for sure.
3464
03:57:46,751 --> 03:57:49,584
I don't know how I'm going to end up.
I'm a commercial agent,
3465
03:57:49,751 --> 03:57:51,751
and I can't find a job,
because people
3466
03:57:51,917 --> 03:57:54,667
don't want a 55-year-old with a limp.
3467
03:57:54,834 --> 03:57:58,251
I'll find a night watchman's job
in a factory
3468
03:57:58,417 --> 03:58:01,084
with a walkie-talkie,
it's going to end like that.
3469
03:58:01,251 --> 03:58:05,042
Once again, it's an adventure.
I don't regret anything,
3470
03:58:05,209 --> 03:58:08,876
personally, I liked it.
3471
03:58:09,042 --> 03:58:11,959
If I had to live through that event again,
I would.
3472
03:58:12,126 --> 03:58:17,334
I lost my certainties,
and I realized that right and wrong
3473
03:58:17,501 --> 03:58:21,917
are things better left
for young people to dream about.
3474
03:58:22,084 --> 03:58:26,751
Maybe it's maturity, becoming an adult.
3475
03:58:26,917 --> 03:58:29,751
Perhaps the war helped me
become an adult.
3476
03:58:29,917 --> 03:58:34,542
It made me understand that reality
was far more complex
3477
03:58:34,709 --> 03:58:36,917
that our young dreams.
3478
03:58:37,084 --> 03:58:43,334
I believe we aged.
3479
03:58:44,501 --> 03:58:47,626
In 25 months in the army,
3480
03:58:47,792 --> 03:58:52,417
I don't think I aged two years,
but ten.
3481
03:58:53,542 --> 03:58:56,251
You feel your youth was wasted.
3482
03:58:56,417 --> 03:58:58,751
My kid is a ward of the state,
3483
03:58:58,917 --> 03:59:01,501
and I always said,
if there's another conflict,
3484
03:59:01,667 --> 03:59:05,917
I'd put him in a basement,
I'd feed him, but he won't do it.
3485
03:59:06,917 --> 03:59:10,834
For sure, I'm against all wars.
3486
03:59:13,001 --> 03:59:17,709
And there's the others, who adapted
more or less successfully.
3487
03:59:17,876 --> 03:59:21,667
Henrietti, who lives a few yards away
from his pal Puygrenier,
3488
03:59:21,834 --> 03:59:23,959
is a construction manager.
3489
03:59:24,126 --> 03:59:27,167
Noël Trouilloud,
after working as a farmer,
3490
03:59:27,334 --> 03:59:32,334
became a nurse in the psychiatric hospital
where Pessenti is an ambulance driver.
3491
03:59:32,501 --> 03:59:35,959
Dr. Francois Sikirdji is
a renowned gynecologist.
3492
03:59:36,126 --> 03:59:39,542
Gilbert Gardien is
an administration executive.
3493
03:59:39,709 --> 03:59:42,751
Jean Manin went back to the factory.
3494
03:59:42,917 --> 03:59:46,667
Jacques Beck went back
to the family retail store.
3495
03:59:47,626 --> 03:59:50,917
Gaëtan Esposito owns
a little paint company.
3496
03:59:51,084 --> 03:59:55,459
Some are activists at the NVU,
like Jean Bolton, a child psychologist,
3497
03:59:55,626 --> 03:59:59,626
others at the FNACA,
like René Denazzolo or César Delbello,
3498
03:59:59,792 --> 04:00:01,667
a long-time teamster.
3499
04:00:01,834 --> 04:00:03,001
I don't hear you anymore.
3500
04:00:03,167 --> 04:00:08,167
Considered like a sterile subject,
the veterans of North Africa
3501
04:00:08,334 --> 04:00:11,584
are worthless. Lessened by age,
3502
04:00:11,751 --> 04:00:15,626
no longer productive enough
in economic life,
3503
04:00:15,792 --> 04:00:17,292
we are doomed to be discarded.
3504
04:00:17,459 --> 04:00:22,251
Know that the veterans of North Africa
won't let their children experience
3505
04:00:22,417 --> 04:00:25,292
what they are experiencing today:
contempt.
3506
04:00:25,459 --> 04:00:31,917
Some were wounded in the flesh.
Serge Puygrenier is a pensioner.
3507
04:00:32,084 --> 04:00:36,042
He receives 3,500 francs a month
for disability. The price of a leg.
3508
04:00:37,126 --> 04:00:40,334
Out of 200,000 soldiers wounded
across the Mediterranean,
3509
04:00:40,501 --> 04:00:43,584
eighty thousand receive
disability pensions.
3510
04:00:43,751 --> 04:00:48,667
They demand to acquire the same
veteran status to that of other conflicts.
3511
04:00:48,834 --> 04:00:52,042
It's impossible, governments
have been saying for 25 years.
3512
04:00:52,209 --> 04:00:56,667
The Algerian War was not a war,
but a law enforcement operation.
3513
04:00:57,501 --> 04:01:01,792
There are those like Henri Girard,
who never came back from it.
3514
04:01:01,959 --> 04:01:06,709
Twenty-four thousand draftees
died to keep Algeria French.
3515
04:01:07,626 --> 04:01:10,251
And there are those who never recovered.
3516
04:01:10,417 --> 04:01:16,376
Who carry deep traumas, unspeakable
nightmares, irreversible effects.
3517
04:01:16,542 --> 04:01:20,042
How many have suffered night and day
for thirty years?
3518
04:01:20,209 --> 04:01:26,042
There are no statistics. France refuses
to publish precise numbers.
3519
04:01:26,209 --> 04:01:29,542
But it can be estimated
that several thousand Algerian veterans
3520
04:01:29,709 --> 04:01:32,084
suffer serious psychiatric disorders.
3521
04:01:33,292 --> 04:01:37,334
We followed a field trip organized
by FNACA volunteers
3522
04:01:37,501 --> 04:01:41,001
for a group of patients
treated in psychiatry wards.
3523
04:01:41,751 --> 04:01:44,126
Look at these faces.
3524
04:02:07,792 --> 04:02:10,376
They all were draftees in Algeria.
3525
04:02:10,542 --> 04:02:15,042
This one for example,
who becomes interested in the crew
3526
04:02:15,209 --> 04:02:18,667
when he finds out
I directed Round Midnight.
3527
04:02:18,834 --> 04:02:22,334
He was a jazz pianist before Algeria.
3528
04:02:22,501 --> 04:02:26,084
I like Oscar Peterson.
3529
04:02:26,251 --> 04:02:30,334
Ray Bryant. Monk.
Thelonious Monk.
3530
04:02:30,501 --> 04:02:32,584
- Bud Powell?
- Bud Powell.
3531
04:02:33,876 --> 04:02:35,959
- Tommy Flanagan.
- Ah!
3532
04:02:36,126 --> 04:02:38,667
Tommy Flanagan.
3533
04:02:38,834 --> 04:02:43,334
Who else...? I like the guitar player...
3534
04:02:43,501 --> 04:02:47,792
Wes Montgomery. That was great.
Kenny Burrell.
3535
04:02:49,126 --> 04:02:51,042
- Do you know him?
- Oh, yes.
3536
04:02:51,209 --> 04:02:52,667
- You like him?
- Fantastic.
3537
04:02:52,834 --> 04:02:54,126
He's good, right?
3538
04:02:54,292 --> 04:02:56,876
- You saw prisoners coming?
- Yeah.
3539
04:02:57,042 --> 04:03:00,542
Dozens at a time.
And there were wood chores.
3540
04:03:01,709 --> 04:03:06,667
Executions. They had to be escorted.
3541
04:03:06,834 --> 04:03:09,917
I typed the interrogations.
3542
04:03:10,084 --> 04:03:13,959
The commander, the lieutenant reports.
3543
04:03:14,126 --> 04:03:18,042
Then we went on missions.
Following intelligence.
3544
04:03:18,209 --> 04:03:22,334
Everything was on intelligence,
with the Legion and the paratroopers.
3545
04:03:22,501 --> 04:03:25,001
- Did you watch the interrogations?
- No, I didn't want to.
3546
04:03:25,167 --> 04:03:27,542
- You didn't want to.
- It made me...
3547
04:03:27,709 --> 04:03:32,334
It made me want to throw up.
3548
04:03:32,501 --> 04:03:35,459
You know about it?
The Tucker telephone.
3549
04:03:37,501 --> 04:03:42,042
Oh, I don't want to talk
about that stuff anymore.
3550
04:03:42,209 --> 04:03:44,126
- Didier Rinaldi.
- Here.
3551
04:03:44,292 --> 04:03:48,667
On behalf of the Secretary of State
for Veteran Affairs,
3552
04:03:48,834 --> 04:03:52,126
- I'm awarding you the Combatant's Cross.
- Thank you.
3553
04:03:52,292 --> 04:03:54,709
Here you go, my friend.
3554
04:03:54,876 --> 04:03:57,042
M. Roussillon, René, Germain.
3555
04:03:57,209 --> 04:03:59,751
On behalf of the Secretary of State
for Veteran Affairs,
3556
04:03:59,917 --> 04:04:03,167
I have pleasure in awarding you
the Combatant's Cross.
3557
04:04:03,334 --> 04:04:04,959
Thank you.
3558
04:06:25,959 --> 04:06:29,334
Subtitle translation by:
Nadège Traoré-Dulot
281480
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