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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:29,626 --> 00:00:32,126 Do you often talk about your experience in the Algerian War? 4 00:00:32,292 --> 00:00:34,542 Very seldom. 5 00:00:34,709 --> 00:00:37,001 With my kids sometimes. 6 00:00:37,167 --> 00:00:40,251 But to them, I mean... 7 00:00:40,417 --> 00:00:44,626 thirty years back is like the First World War. So no, not really. 8 00:00:44,792 --> 00:00:51,084 Not very. When I see old friends again... 9 00:00:51,251 --> 00:00:52,959 Otherwise, no. 10 00:00:53,126 --> 00:00:56,126 I discovered a week ago, looking for old pictures, 11 00:00:56,292 --> 00:00:57,542 looking for documents, 12 00:00:57,709 --> 00:01:02,334 that my thirty-year-old son and I have never talked about the Algerian War. 13 00:01:02,501 --> 00:01:05,042 My children sometimes ask questions about it. 14 00:01:05,209 --> 00:01:07,667 It is true that I barely mention it much. 15 00:01:07,834 --> 00:01:11,126 And I think this film is an opportunity to... 16 00:01:11,292 --> 00:01:12,709 talk about it with them as well. 17 00:01:12,876 --> 00:01:15,417 Talking about it is... 18 00:01:15,584 --> 00:01:18,667 like my colleague said, it is painful, 19 00:01:18,834 --> 00:01:22,917 because we experienced it, and also no one wants to listen to that. 20 00:01:23,084 --> 00:01:25,376 Why tell 21 00:01:25,542 --> 00:01:30,292 your pals, your family, what you experienced over there? 22 00:01:30,459 --> 00:01:33,959 It's always sad. You cast bad memories aside. 23 00:01:34,126 --> 00:01:37,292 I went through a long period of amnesia, 24 00:01:37,459 --> 00:01:44,251 where I didn't want to think about the Algerian War. 25 00:01:44,417 --> 00:01:50,001 Under the burning sun of Algeria 26 00:01:50,167 --> 00:01:54,542 Our flag floated calm and victorious 27 00:01:54,709 --> 00:01:59,417 In response to the motherland's call 28 00:01:59,584 --> 00:02:03,876 He goes there to face the harshness 29 00:02:04,042 --> 00:02:09,001 Go! Raise to the Crimean winds 30 00:02:09,167 --> 00:02:13,251 Your old flag alas no longer victorious 31 00:02:13,417 --> 00:02:17,876 Stained with the blood Of the invaded Austria 32 00:02:18,042 --> 00:02:22,292 And proudly wear the Cross of honor 33 00:02:22,459 --> 00:02:27,251 Hurray, hurray! Soldiers march on 34 00:02:27,417 --> 00:02:32,042 The canon rings and the bugle sings 35 00:02:32,209 --> 00:02:36,501 Hurray, hurray! Soldiers march on 36 00:02:36,667 --> 00:02:40,709 Always follow the third regiment 37 00:02:40,876 --> 00:02:44,626 Barn, barn! Take cover The jackals are here 38 00:02:44,792 --> 00:02:48,959 The jackals, these warriors Who never leave you bare feet 39 00:02:49,126 --> 00:02:54,001 November 1st, 1954, I was in the Algerian territory of Khenchela. 40 00:02:54,167 --> 00:02:59,501 We were spending the night in small barracks right outside town. 41 00:02:59,667 --> 00:03:03,667 We were leaving the next day. And at 1 a.m., we were attacked. 42 00:03:03,834 --> 00:03:07,251 Our watchman, the one who was on watch duty, 43 00:03:07,417 --> 00:03:12,167 posted out front, was injured. Seriously. 44 00:03:12,334 --> 00:03:15,542 We carried him to Batna hospital during the night, 45 00:03:15,709 --> 00:03:19,084 in a truck, a GMC, 46 00:03:19,251 --> 00:03:23,917 and he died two days later. His name was Marquet. 47 00:03:24,084 --> 00:03:28,501 - He was the Algerian War's first casualty. - He was among the first ones. 48 00:03:28,667 --> 00:03:31,792 There was another battery at Batna, the BCS, 49 00:03:31,959 --> 00:03:34,501 Command and Services Battery, 50 00:03:34,667 --> 00:03:38,876 which was attacked at around the same time and... 51 00:03:39,042 --> 00:03:43,292 Not the watchman, but the post brigadier came out to check 52 00:03:43,459 --> 00:03:45,959 what was happening at 1 a.m., there were gunshots, 53 00:03:46,126 --> 00:03:49,709 and he was fatally wounded. His name was Cocher. 54 00:03:49,876 --> 00:03:54,626 - Did you know them? - I'd known them a little in Germany. 55 00:03:54,792 --> 00:03:57,167 Before they attacked, 56 00:03:57,334 --> 00:03:59,667 the blew the transformer outside. 57 00:03:59,834 --> 00:04:02,334 And we were in places we didn't know, 58 00:04:02,501 --> 00:04:04,042 in the dark... 59 00:04:05,042 --> 00:04:08,376 We stood around... There were walls all around, 60 00:04:08,542 --> 00:04:12,001 so those who were at the gate, they were okay. 61 00:04:12,167 --> 00:04:14,417 Those who were behind the wall, 62 00:04:14,584 --> 00:04:18,001 we tried to do something, but we couldn't see anything. 63 00:04:18,167 --> 00:04:21,417 I was shooting, I had a rifle. 64 00:04:21,584 --> 00:04:26,376 We shot over the wall, but it didn't go anywhere, we couldn't retaliate. 65 00:04:26,542 --> 00:04:30,876 But they threw us boxes, with pieces of cloth, 66 00:04:31,042 --> 00:04:34,209 like Molotov cocktails. 67 00:04:34,376 --> 00:04:37,167 It fell down and went up in flames. 68 00:04:37,334 --> 00:04:39,126 All our trucks 69 00:04:39,292 --> 00:04:44,876 were lined up by that wall. And we had a fuel tank, one truck had 800 liters 70 00:04:45,042 --> 00:04:48,667 because we drove around. We tried to move them 71 00:04:48,834 --> 00:04:51,334 away from the wall, so they couldn't get hit. 72 00:04:51,501 --> 00:04:55,459 The next day there was some retaliation. 73 00:04:55,626 --> 00:04:59,626 - Meaning? - We arrested suspects. 74 00:04:59,792 --> 00:05:02,709 It was bad, 75 00:05:02,876 --> 00:05:06,334 the guys had a hard time accepting the couple of casualties. 76 00:05:06,501 --> 00:05:10,251 - How did you feel about these deaths? - I was like them. 77 00:05:10,417 --> 00:05:14,042 I... You can't... 78 00:05:14,209 --> 00:05:16,501 We were hurting and... 79 00:05:16,667 --> 00:05:19,001 we didn't really understand why. 80 00:05:19,167 --> 00:05:24,001 As young draftees, we didn't really know why they shot at us. 81 00:05:24,167 --> 00:05:28,667 People said "Algeria," "France," it was confusing. 82 00:05:28,834 --> 00:05:31,709 You were absolutely not aware that a seven-year war was starting. 83 00:05:31,876 --> 00:05:36,501 Not at all. I thought it would last one year, tops. 84 00:05:36,667 --> 00:05:39,292 What even surprised me I have a brother who's 85 00:05:39,459 --> 00:05:42,501 six years younger than I am, that went there. 86 00:05:42,667 --> 00:05:46,001 Then again, I'd never thought 87 00:05:46,167 --> 00:05:48,584 that war would last eight years. 88 00:05:59,209 --> 00:06:03,209 This eight-year war, those who fought it will talk about it. 89 00:06:03,376 --> 00:06:05,834 Like Pierre Pessenti, 90 00:06:06,001 --> 00:06:09,709 all the witnesses we talked to were drafted or re-drafted, 91 00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:13,459 and served in Algeria between 1954 and 1962. 92 00:06:13,626 --> 00:06:16,084 Soldiers, with or without rank. 93 00:06:16,251 --> 00:06:18,542 "Blokes," as they called them then. 94 00:06:18,709 --> 00:06:20,584 Millions of young Frenchmen, 95 00:06:20,751 --> 00:06:24,709 millions of stories that made history. 96 00:06:24,876 --> 00:06:26,834 They had never spoken, 97 00:06:27,001 --> 00:06:30,501 and nobody bothered listening anyway. 98 00:06:36,792 --> 00:06:38,959 They were twenty, 99 00:06:39,126 --> 00:06:41,334 sometimes older, when they had a deferment. 100 00:06:41,501 --> 00:06:44,209 They were simple soldiers or officers. 101 00:06:44,376 --> 00:06:46,917 They fought in the Aurès and by Constantine, 102 00:06:47,084 --> 00:06:51,001 in Kabylia and on the border. They wore the bush hat, 103 00:06:51,167 --> 00:06:54,459 the paratrooper beret, or the commando cap. 104 00:06:54,626 --> 00:06:57,584 They retained perfect memories of that time, 105 00:06:57,751 --> 00:07:00,626 Incredibly vivid and accurate. 106 00:07:00,792 --> 00:07:05,334 They also often kept, as one does, pious relics, souvenirs, 107 00:07:05,501 --> 00:07:07,501 letters, pictures, 108 00:07:07,667 --> 00:07:09,834 the only documents you will see. 109 00:07:10,001 --> 00:07:15,251 Just like we excluded politicians, career officers and officials, 110 00:07:15,417 --> 00:07:19,209 instead of archives, we chose to use 111 00:07:19,376 --> 00:07:22,417 photographs taken on site by our witnesses. 112 00:07:24,042 --> 00:07:27,751 All these former draftees or re-draftees share another trait. 113 00:07:27,917 --> 00:07:33,126 Like Pierre Pessenti, they are all from the Grenoble area. 114 00:07:33,292 --> 00:07:35,959 Thirty years later, we found them in the city 115 00:07:36,126 --> 00:07:38,334 where they still live. 116 00:07:38,501 --> 00:07:40,834 And we chose Grenoble for a reason. 117 00:07:41,459 --> 00:07:44,584 This is where, on May 18th, 1956, 118 00:07:44,751 --> 00:07:49,501 one of the biggest protests against re-drafting took place. 119 00:07:49,667 --> 00:07:53,584 Almost all our witnesses were involved, closely or from a distance, 120 00:07:53,751 --> 00:07:55,917 whether they were for or against it. 121 00:07:56,084 --> 00:07:59,459 Ezio Goy, for instance, by whom we just drove. 122 00:07:59,626 --> 00:08:01,876 Did you participate in the protest's preparations? 123 00:08:02,042 --> 00:08:06,751 We took part in the protest with other youth organizations. 124 00:08:06,917 --> 00:08:08,501 Was there a slogan? 125 00:08:08,667 --> 00:08:14,167 No... Not even that. It was just us. Personally, we went because 126 00:08:14,334 --> 00:08:17,001 we had to do something to keep the guys home. 127 00:08:17,167 --> 00:08:20,959 And we ended up over in the Aigle neighborhood, 128 00:08:21,126 --> 00:08:25,417 Augereau Street and all that, and we faced the riot police. 129 00:08:25,584 --> 00:08:28,417 There was some fighting. 130 00:08:28,584 --> 00:08:34,376 - Did you fight? Did you throw rocks? - Yeah! They almost hit me with their guns. 131 00:08:34,542 --> 00:08:37,959 I had pals who were drafted for a second tour. 132 00:08:38,126 --> 00:08:40,834 We were young, eighteen, twenty, 133 00:08:41,001 --> 00:08:43,417 but we were friends. Twenty-three, twenty-four. 134 00:08:43,584 --> 00:08:47,667 Some of them were on the trains that were leaving. 135 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:49,792 We wanted to keep that from happening. 136 00:08:49,959 --> 00:08:53,001 We thought, Algeria... 137 00:08:53,167 --> 00:08:55,834 We didn't understand why they sent people back. 138 00:08:56,001 --> 00:08:59,459 If you had interviewed the protesters then, 139 00:08:59,626 --> 00:09:02,584 they were all completely convinced 140 00:09:02,751 --> 00:09:04,876 that they were in the street 141 00:09:05,042 --> 00:09:08,417 for a good cause, and that it was their idea. 142 00:09:08,584 --> 00:09:12,959 But they were actually manipulated, they were brought to that point. 143 00:09:13,126 --> 00:09:17,334 If mothers protested, cried, 144 00:09:17,501 --> 00:09:19,834 because their sons were sent to war... 145 00:09:20,876 --> 00:09:21,876 Okay- 146 00:09:22,042 --> 00:09:24,376 The protest was carried out 147 00:09:24,542 --> 00:09:27,959 by the mothers and the fiancées of the soldiers that were leaving. 148 00:09:28,126 --> 00:09:31,917 Barricades were blocking the tracks to keep the trains from leaving. 149 00:09:32,084 --> 00:09:36,251 And it came from the families. 150 00:09:36,417 --> 00:09:39,084 - Did you go? - No. No, no. 151 00:09:39,251 --> 00:09:42,917 No, because in '56, I was 15, 152 00:09:43,084 --> 00:09:46,084 and when you were 15, you thought, 153 00:09:46,251 --> 00:09:50,917 "The Algerian War will end. It will last one or two years." 154 00:09:51,084 --> 00:09:53,751 You, personally, were you a communist activist? 155 00:09:53,917 --> 00:09:55,334 I was. 156 00:09:55,501 --> 00:10:00,959 We were in this group on the French Algeria side, 157 00:10:01,126 --> 00:10:06,376 and that welcomed guys who went from Guy Mollet's socialists 158 00:10:06,542 --> 00:10:08,917 to royalists. 159 00:10:09,084 --> 00:10:11,001 We wanted to counter-protest, 160 00:10:11,167 --> 00:10:14,584 but there were fifteen of us in the end, 161 00:10:14,751 --> 00:10:20,001 while the other side was 1,000 to 2,000 as many. 162 00:10:21,792 --> 00:10:23,501 We didn't counter-protest. 163 00:10:23,667 --> 00:10:26,334 In those days, people rode bikes a lot, 164 00:10:26,501 --> 00:10:29,626 and cyclists rolled by, and I was next to 165 00:10:29,792 --> 00:10:32,042 - two military police... - It was here? 166 00:10:32,209 --> 00:10:34,251 Down there. 167 00:10:34,417 --> 00:10:37,334 There was a fence, and by the gate 168 00:10:38,417 --> 00:10:41,459 were two guards. At that moment, two workers 169 00:10:41,626 --> 00:10:44,376 came out of the factory, 170 00:10:44,542 --> 00:10:47,626 wanted to join the protest. 171 00:10:47,792 --> 00:10:52,001 What happened then? I don't know, but a guard must have lost his cool, 172 00:10:52,167 --> 00:10:55,334 and he hit one of the workers with the grip of his gun. 173 00:10:55,501 --> 00:10:57,917 - Right in front of you? - Right here. And blood 174 00:10:58,084 --> 00:11:00,501 started to flow. 175 00:11:00,667 --> 00:11:04,167 It made me angry. Everyone ran to the tracks, 176 00:11:04,334 --> 00:11:06,292 and the train kept moving forward, 177 00:11:06,459 --> 00:11:09,792 close to the protesters who were on the tracks. 178 00:11:09,959 --> 00:11:12,376 It happened in a few minutes of course and... 179 00:11:12,542 --> 00:11:17,876 a truck, a big truck, came from the Cours Berriat right here. 180 00:11:18,042 --> 00:11:19,626 It was going downtown, 181 00:11:19,792 --> 00:11:22,792 but ended up being stuck on the tracks. The train was here, 182 00:11:22,959 --> 00:11:26,209 in the middle of the fence, pressure had built up, 183 00:11:26,376 --> 00:11:28,251 then a guy yelled at me to pull the lever. 184 00:11:28,417 --> 00:11:31,042 "Pull the lever"... 185 00:11:31,209 --> 00:11:33,042 I then... 186 00:11:34,376 --> 00:11:38,626 gladly obeyed the order. 187 00:11:38,792 --> 00:11:42,292 I pulled a lever, a pressure lever I suppose, I didn't know anything, 188 00:11:42,459 --> 00:11:44,792 I pulled it and it went... 189 00:11:44,959 --> 00:11:47,417 The pressure was vented. 190 00:11:47,584 --> 00:11:50,709 And it was for me. 191 00:11:50,876 --> 00:11:53,792 I didn't... Now, the cops being... 192 00:11:53,959 --> 00:11:56,709 and the altercations, 193 00:11:56,876 --> 00:11:58,917 we were all running on the tracks and... 194 00:11:59,084 --> 00:12:01,001 on each side, along the avenue. 195 00:12:01,167 --> 00:12:03,667 I saw people toppling a crane 196 00:12:03,834 --> 00:12:06,751 over in the Grands Boulevards area, on the road 197 00:12:06,917 --> 00:12:10,334 and poured cement in the... 198 00:12:10,501 --> 00:12:12,126 in the points. 199 00:12:12,876 --> 00:12:16,209 We did some damage to keep the trains from leaving. 200 00:12:16,376 --> 00:12:17,417 Meaning? 201 00:12:17,584 --> 00:12:21,751 We laid a crane on the tracks, we threw cement bags on the guards. 202 00:12:21,917 --> 00:12:23,792 - You did? - I'm not ashamed to say it. 203 00:12:23,959 --> 00:12:27,209 Yes. I have a buddy at the FNACA who got hit by cement. 204 00:12:27,376 --> 00:12:30,209 Gaston. He was military police. 205 00:12:30,376 --> 00:12:32,209 We shared our memories. 206 00:12:32,376 --> 00:12:36,876 - He was security, I threw cement bags. - That's it. 207 00:12:37,042 --> 00:12:39,584 We were fighting for our rights, and I'd do it again. 208 00:12:39,751 --> 00:12:42,876 - Same here. - Absolutely. No hard feelings. 209 00:12:43,042 --> 00:12:46,792 - Right. - We became friends. I hope it lasts. 210 00:12:46,959 --> 00:12:48,167 In Algeria together. 211 00:12:48,334 --> 00:12:51,334 - Yeah. - We fought together in Algeria. 212 00:12:51,501 --> 00:12:54,501 We fought here in France, 213 00:12:54,667 --> 00:12:57,167 and we were pals over there. 214 00:12:57,334 --> 00:12:59,501 - We did the same job. - We fought for an ideal. 215 00:13:00,251 --> 00:13:02,334 Did you want to help the riot police? 216 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:07,084 The riot police? Not so much. 217 00:13:07,251 --> 00:13:08,917 Not when you're 19. 218 00:13:10,001 --> 00:13:11,959 Like in John Houston's movies, 219 00:13:12,126 --> 00:13:14,834 where destiny doesn't care about the protagonist's intentions, 220 00:13:15,001 --> 00:13:19,667 the train stopped by the protesters on May 18th, 1956, 221 00:13:19,834 --> 00:13:24,042 wasn't carrying draftees, it was the Grenoble-Chambéry line. 222 00:13:25,084 --> 00:13:28,792 A few days later, Ezio Goy left for Algeria, 223 00:13:28,959 --> 00:13:31,376 soon to be followed by Bruno Henrietti, 224 00:13:31,542 --> 00:13:33,751 César Delbello and Jacques Beck. 225 00:13:33,917 --> 00:13:36,542 Elsewhere in the region, at the same time, 226 00:13:36,709 --> 00:13:38,584 other protests took place, 227 00:13:38,751 --> 00:13:42,292 other screams, other draftees who left heartbroken. 228 00:13:42,459 --> 00:13:47,584 One day, the police came to the factory with our slip. 229 00:13:47,751 --> 00:13:50,167 - And... - Many workers were in your situation? 230 00:13:50,334 --> 00:13:53,792 There was another pal who worked with me, 231 00:13:53,959 --> 00:13:55,876 and who died in Algeria. 232 00:13:57,917 --> 00:14:01,501 He was my closest friend. 233 00:14:01,667 --> 00:14:03,917 We worked together, Louis Barratier. 234 00:14:04,084 --> 00:14:08,292 He died. From other villages, people died. 235 00:14:08,459 --> 00:14:11,667 I'm sorry... I can never talk about those events. 236 00:14:15,751 --> 00:14:18,667 We were re-drafted. 237 00:14:18,834 --> 00:14:22,459 How did your colleagues react when you had to leave again? 238 00:14:24,292 --> 00:14:26,001 I'd spoken with 239 00:14:26,167 --> 00:14:29,334 with the guys, my buddies from the union. 240 00:14:29,501 --> 00:14:32,417 I was part of catholic circles, 241 00:14:32,584 --> 00:14:34,334 catholic initiatives, 242 00:14:34,501 --> 00:14:39,292 I asked myself if I should go or not... I really didn't want to go. 243 00:14:41,376 --> 00:14:44,667 I completed basic training in Metz, I stayed 18 months 244 00:14:44,834 --> 00:14:49,417 from November '52 to February '54. 245 00:14:49,584 --> 00:14:55,501 Then I was dismissed, and they called me to report for duty on May 25th, 1956. 246 00:14:55,667 --> 00:14:57,751 I refused to go. 247 00:14:57,917 --> 00:15:00,751 There was a lot of work at the farm, 248 00:15:00,917 --> 00:15:04,501 the hay, the harvest, all that work had to be done, 249 00:15:04,667 --> 00:15:09,876 and my brother was at school, and my father, alone with my mother. 250 00:15:11,334 --> 00:15:13,626 Five or six days later, the police came for me. 251 00:15:13,792 --> 00:15:15,542 Did you protest? 252 00:15:15,709 --> 00:15:18,292 - In Voiron, yes. - What happened there? 253 00:15:18,459 --> 00:15:24,084 There were mothers, wives... 254 00:15:24,251 --> 00:15:28,459 of Algerian veterans who laid on the tracks to block the autorail. 255 00:15:28,626 --> 00:15:30,292 We said. 256 00:15:30,459 --> 00:15:34,709 "You won't go, but everyone else will..." 257 00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:38,209 Maybe it was to ease our conscience but... 258 00:15:38,376 --> 00:15:42,334 maybe it's better to go with the ones on the field, 259 00:15:42,501 --> 00:15:45,042 and help pals become aware. 260 00:15:45,209 --> 00:15:49,292 And we left for Algeria two weeks later. We left... 261 00:15:49,459 --> 00:15:52,792 June 15th. 262 00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:56,542 We were supposed to take a train at Marcilloles, 263 00:15:56,709 --> 00:16:00,417 and in the evening, in the afternoon, 264 00:16:00,584 --> 00:16:02,292 the train was blown up. 265 00:16:02,459 --> 00:16:05,292 - Who did it? - We never knew. 266 00:16:05,459 --> 00:16:08,834 - The train blew up... - The train or the tracks? 267 00:16:09,001 --> 00:16:12,167 They blew up the track and the engine. 268 00:16:12,334 --> 00:16:15,167 They were buddies from the area 269 00:16:15,334 --> 00:16:18,167 who couldn't accept it, and tried to get people involved. 270 00:16:18,334 --> 00:16:23,584 But before our departure, there was just 50,100 people from the entire region. 271 00:16:23,751 --> 00:16:25,209 It wasn't... 272 00:16:25,376 --> 00:16:28,542 We were still in a rural area, 273 00:16:30,001 --> 00:16:32,376 where problems were less pressing than in the cities. 274 00:16:32,542 --> 00:16:36,209 They put us in trucks during the night at Saint-Rambert-D'Albon. 275 00:16:36,376 --> 00:16:39,626 Did the re-draftees protest on the way? In the trucks...? 276 00:16:39,792 --> 00:16:41,959 We were escorted by the riot police. 277 00:16:42,126 --> 00:16:45,417 They followed the train all the way to Marseille. 278 00:16:45,584 --> 00:16:47,917 How did the re-draftees feel? 279 00:16:48,084 --> 00:16:51,959 It wasn't pretty... Some of them deserted. 280 00:16:52,126 --> 00:16:56,417 - At that moment. - Yes. Two. I don't know what happened. 281 00:16:56,584 --> 00:16:59,126 Two guys, one of them was in my dorm, 282 00:16:59,292 --> 00:17:01,917 deserted and left... 283 00:17:02,084 --> 00:17:05,459 He left a message saying he was leaving for the USSR. 284 00:17:05,626 --> 00:17:08,376 Now, were did he go? I don't know. 285 00:17:09,042 --> 00:17:12,417 Then they put us on a boat at Port-Vendres, 286 00:17:12,584 --> 00:17:16,751 because there were many protests in Marseille... 287 00:17:16,917 --> 00:17:20,626 There wasn't much of a population in the area, the risks were lower. 288 00:17:20,792 --> 00:17:24,501 How were the re-draftee's state of mind on the boat? Did they protest? 289 00:17:24,667 --> 00:17:28,834 There were protests until we boarded. 290 00:17:29,001 --> 00:17:33,084 I remember the ceremony in the barracks' yard, 291 00:17:33,251 --> 00:17:36,792 when people sang "The Deserter". I didn't know the song then. 292 00:17:36,959 --> 00:17:38,959 I thought it was beautiful, but... 293 00:17:41,251 --> 00:17:43,834 I discovered it then. 294 00:17:44,001 --> 00:17:46,501 The hostility was obvious. 295 00:17:46,667 --> 00:17:49,917 The soldiers took arms backwards, 296 00:17:50,084 --> 00:17:52,459 people refused to present them, I did that. 297 00:17:52,626 --> 00:17:55,751 Protesters screamed against the war. 298 00:17:55,917 --> 00:17:58,459 The re-drafted showed huge opposition. 299 00:17:58,626 --> 00:18:01,709 - What about the officers? - They said nothing. 300 00:18:01,876 --> 00:18:04,917 I remember when we got on the train, on the platform, 301 00:18:05,084 --> 00:18:09,042 one said, "just let them do it. When they lose their buddies, 302 00:18:09,209 --> 00:18:10,709 they will start doing war." 303 00:18:10,876 --> 00:18:15,126 Going to Algeria was presented to us, and that's how I saw it, 304 00:18:15,292 --> 00:18:19,584 as being about pacifying. The FLN was presented 305 00:18:19,751 --> 00:18:24,167 through their attacks on civilians. 306 00:18:24,334 --> 00:18:26,959 In 1954, the teachers, 307 00:18:27,126 --> 00:18:31,167 burning farms, women and children getting their throats cut. 308 00:18:31,334 --> 00:18:32,751 The country was calling us. 309 00:18:32,917 --> 00:18:37,876 I had nothing against it at the time, in the mindset I was in. 310 00:18:38,042 --> 00:18:41,251 I wanted to go. I didn't dislike the idea. 311 00:18:41,417 --> 00:18:46,126 For the thrills or did you have political or ideological reasons? 312 00:18:46,292 --> 00:18:50,751 No political or ideological reasons whatsoever, just the thrills. 313 00:18:51,834 --> 00:18:55,876 I wanted to be in the army, like any good Frenchman. 314 00:18:56,042 --> 00:18:57,959 But not in a militaristic mindset. 315 00:18:58,126 --> 00:19:00,959 As I saw it, there wasn't even an issue, 316 00:19:01,126 --> 00:19:03,376 I had to do my military service. 317 00:19:03,542 --> 00:19:06,292 I left because I was drafted. I was a draftee. 318 00:19:06,459 --> 00:19:08,376 But I also go because 319 00:19:08,542 --> 00:19:12,334 I think that Algeria is a French département', and it should stay French. 320 00:20:48,001 --> 00:20:49,959 When you land, 321 00:20:50,126 --> 00:20:52,917 you hear the national anthem, you get flowers, 322 00:20:53,084 --> 00:20:55,501 but it doesn't last. 323 00:20:55,667 --> 00:20:58,334 Twenty-four hours later, you understand. 324 00:20:58,501 --> 00:21:01,292 - What? - That you are in it. 325 00:21:01,459 --> 00:21:03,792 That it's a real war in the end. 326 00:21:03,959 --> 00:21:06,959 We landed in Algeria. It was a discovery. 327 00:21:07,126 --> 00:21:08,542 I didn't know it. 328 00:21:08,709 --> 00:21:13,709 We were surprised when we arrived, we were given Lebel rifles. 329 00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:16,209 They were old WWI rifles. 330 00:21:16,376 --> 00:21:19,417 We had a warm welcome. 331 00:21:19,584 --> 00:21:22,792 We got shots against yellow fever. 332 00:21:22,959 --> 00:21:25,501 We lowered our pants 333 00:21:25,667 --> 00:21:28,251 and each one of us got his shot. 334 00:21:28,417 --> 00:21:30,667 Then... 335 00:21:30,834 --> 00:21:35,959 we waited a couple of days, and most of us, we were about a hundred, 336 00:21:36,126 --> 00:21:38,751 went to the infirmary, because we caught the fever. 337 00:21:38,917 --> 00:21:43,501 When we arrived, the captain, a Dijon mustard merchant, re-drafted like us, 338 00:21:43,667 --> 00:21:48,542 told us... He told us... 339 00:21:48,709 --> 00:21:51,584 "We're going there, but don't worry, 340 00:21:51,751 --> 00:21:54,584 we're going for six months, we'll stick to the shade, 341 00:21:54,751 --> 00:21:59,084 and if they don't mess with us, we'll take it easy." 342 00:21:59,251 --> 00:22:03,084 We spent our first nights, a few nights, under a tent. 343 00:22:03,251 --> 00:22:06,834 There were thousands of us, there were many of us. 344 00:22:07,001 --> 00:22:11,959 The first night, the camp got shot at, there was panic, I panicked too. 345 00:22:12,126 --> 00:22:15,834 We thought, "What's happening, they're shooting at us on the first night." 346 00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:20,334 The watchmen, people like us who were rookies, all fired back. 347 00:22:20,501 --> 00:22:22,792 It felt like a big attack. 348 00:22:22,959 --> 00:22:27,834 They put us in a wheat field, a huge one. Told us we were sleeping there. 349 00:22:28,001 --> 00:22:31,876 We put up the tents, and they fired at us that night. 350 00:22:32,042 --> 00:22:35,542 - The first night? How did it go? - The first night. 351 00:22:35,709 --> 00:22:40,459 Nobody died, but it was a warning. 352 00:22:40,626 --> 00:22:43,459 Telling us, you have nothing to do here. 353 00:22:43,626 --> 00:22:45,626 Did you understand what you were doing there? 354 00:22:45,792 --> 00:22:48,417 Not really. We wondered why we were there. 355 00:22:48,584 --> 00:22:51,667 And we had weapons, but... 356 00:22:51,834 --> 00:22:57,167 the ammunition was sewn in the bags. 357 00:22:57,334 --> 00:23:00,251 - So you couldn't fire back? - Well, no. 358 00:23:00,417 --> 00:23:03,251 But the next day, 359 00:23:03,417 --> 00:23:05,667 it wasn't sewn anymore. 360 00:23:05,834 --> 00:23:08,042 That was fast. 361 00:23:08,209 --> 00:23:11,167 Once in Algiers, you're given a gun. 362 00:23:11,334 --> 00:23:13,501 It's strange. 363 00:23:15,251 --> 00:23:19,959 We wanted to take leaves, because we were leaving the next day. 364 00:23:20,126 --> 00:23:24,709 So we thought we would take a half day, visit Algiers. 365 00:23:26,001 --> 00:23:30,959 We were nervous. We, jarheads, knew there were attacks in the streets. 366 00:23:31,126 --> 00:23:35,292 To get here and get killed on leave. 367 00:23:35,459 --> 00:23:40,334 We went out anyway. It was life as usual in Algiers. 368 00:23:40,501 --> 00:23:42,751 I remember the day we went out. 369 00:23:43,834 --> 00:23:47,042 - It went okay. - What did you do there? 370 00:23:47,209 --> 00:23:50,584 I was second class. 371 00:23:50,751 --> 00:23:53,542 I messed around, and I was second class. 372 00:23:53,709 --> 00:23:55,959 Where did your region's draftees come from? 373 00:23:56,126 --> 00:24:00,167 A lot were from the Lyon region, from the Drome, 374 00:24:00,334 --> 00:24:03,501 most of them were workers, like me. 375 00:24:03,667 --> 00:24:06,876 - Farmers too? - Farmers, yes. Of course. 376 00:24:07,042 --> 00:24:10,292 Quite a few. I remember guys who got there, they'd taken the train 377 00:24:10,459 --> 00:24:12,959 for the first time to join the army. 378 00:24:13,959 --> 00:24:17,917 They'd never taken the train, nothing. They didn't even know what it was. 379 00:24:18,084 --> 00:24:19,792 Algeria was their first trip. 380 00:24:19,959 --> 00:24:22,501 Yes, it was. For me too. 381 00:24:22,667 --> 00:24:26,709 This is the Taourirt bridge, the first post 382 00:24:26,876 --> 00:24:29,251 where we landed when we got there. 383 00:24:30,417 --> 00:24:35,167 We patrolled villages 384 00:24:35,334 --> 00:24:37,709 in the area. 385 00:24:37,876 --> 00:24:42,376 And in the morning, we'd often get guys 386 00:24:42,542 --> 00:24:45,167 in the barracks, the huts, 387 00:24:45,334 --> 00:24:47,417 and put them to work. 388 00:24:47,584 --> 00:24:50,167 We'd give them some work to do. 389 00:24:50,334 --> 00:24:52,501 We were supposed to fetch them. 390 00:24:52,667 --> 00:24:57,167 - Did they volunteer for work? - Well, not really. 391 00:24:57,334 --> 00:25:01,709 At the Taourirt bridge, we were in charge of the section on a piton, 392 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:05,667 we controlled several valleys, the road to Tizi-Ouzou, 393 00:25:05,834 --> 00:25:10,917 and there was a check point where we'd control everyone, 394 00:25:11,084 --> 00:25:14,001 including army convoys. 395 00:25:15,084 --> 00:25:17,959 We got our water from a spring, 396 00:25:18,126 --> 00:25:20,167 and we were allowed one helmet of water a day. 397 00:25:20,334 --> 00:25:25,542 It did everything. Washed our faces, our butts, our socks, everything, 398 00:25:25,709 --> 00:25:27,876 with one helmet a day. 399 00:25:28,042 --> 00:25:30,667 Watch was scary. 400 00:25:30,834 --> 00:25:34,959 We were afraid because, when we heard a noise, one time I shot... 401 00:25:35,126 --> 00:25:40,459 Jackals came up in the trash. 402 00:25:40,626 --> 00:25:42,917 And we heard can noises, 403 00:25:43,084 --> 00:25:46,667 so we often opened fire wondering what it was, 404 00:25:46,834 --> 00:25:49,251 because nights were a bit scary. 405 00:25:49,417 --> 00:25:53,167 When you were on your piton, how did you entertain yourselves? 406 00:25:53,334 --> 00:25:58,209 We didn't. We had nothing to do. We had a common room, 407 00:25:58,376 --> 00:26:02,876 as big as half of this room, where we'd have drinks, 408 00:26:03,042 --> 00:26:07,167 we had beer. Otherwise, we'd play ball in the camp. 409 00:26:07,917 --> 00:26:12,584 When we came back from missions, sometimes we got wasted on beer. 410 00:26:12,751 --> 00:26:14,876 It happened often. 411 00:26:15,042 --> 00:26:17,292 One of my mates practiced photography. 412 00:26:17,459 --> 00:26:21,417 Some played cards, but we were isolated. 413 00:26:21,584 --> 00:26:24,834 We listened to local radio, 414 00:26:25,001 --> 00:26:27,251 and the... I forget, but 415 00:26:27,417 --> 00:26:32,417 - the songs that were popular at the time. - Do you remember? 416 00:26:32,584 --> 00:26:37,334 Pardon? No, I don't remember. There was Gloria Lasso, I had a crush on her. 417 00:28:14,542 --> 00:28:17,626 I saw my first dead body at that time. 418 00:28:17,792 --> 00:28:24,417 A guy who had been executed by the FLN. 419 00:28:24,584 --> 00:28:28,126 He had a hood over his head. We found him one morning in a ditch. 420 00:28:28,292 --> 00:28:31,751 He had a bag tied with a wire. 421 00:28:31,917 --> 00:28:36,042 A bullet in the head. The first dead body I found on that piton. 422 00:28:36,209 --> 00:28:40,334 We found a mass grave during a mission. 423 00:28:41,959 --> 00:28:44,376 Eleven guys had their throats cut. 424 00:28:44,542 --> 00:28:48,667 - Civilians. Yes. - Killed by the FLN? 425 00:28:48,834 --> 00:28:51,876 So we found that... 426 00:28:52,042 --> 00:28:54,501 The smell was horrendous. 427 00:28:56,542 --> 00:28:59,667 Our missions mostly took us 428 00:28:59,834 --> 00:29:04,001 to the Djurdjura range. We walked a lot because the roads were cut. 429 00:29:04,167 --> 00:29:08,626 We couldn't always take the truck, we'd often leave at night. 430 00:29:08,792 --> 00:29:14,584 We did things like searches, grid searches. 431 00:29:14,751 --> 00:29:18,001 At night there was always a night patrol. 432 00:29:18,167 --> 00:29:20,167 A night ambush. 433 00:29:20,917 --> 00:29:24,376 When you were on a mission, during a watch, were you afraid? 434 00:29:24,542 --> 00:29:26,751 Better be. Often. 435 00:29:26,917 --> 00:29:30,209 We were driving back to camp, 436 00:29:30,376 --> 00:29:35,667 and they started shooting, we were in the woods. 437 00:29:35,834 --> 00:29:40,417 I didn't see anything. I heard the noise, of course, the shots. 438 00:29:40,584 --> 00:29:44,584 The first thing I did was jump out of the truck and hide. 439 00:29:44,751 --> 00:29:47,334 I didn't shoot a single bullet. 440 00:29:47,501 --> 00:29:50,167 - Why...? - I was scared. 441 00:29:50,334 --> 00:29:53,251 I won't hide that I was afraid. I was always afraid. 442 00:29:54,334 --> 00:29:58,417 I was the company's quartermaster, I was in charge of weapons. 443 00:29:58,584 --> 00:30:01,251 We had weapons that had been used in Indochina. 444 00:30:01,417 --> 00:30:07,042 Our rifles, our sub-machine guns, were often jammed. 445 00:30:07,209 --> 00:30:10,167 Where there accidents? 446 00:30:10,334 --> 00:30:14,084 I didn't witness any, but... 447 00:30:14,251 --> 00:30:18,792 several times, we had to take weapons from draftees. 448 00:30:18,959 --> 00:30:22,001 Often, the nerves gave out. 449 00:30:22,167 --> 00:30:24,501 It was a danger for the section. 450 00:30:25,709 --> 00:30:29,042 This is a lunch break during a mission 451 00:30:29,209 --> 00:30:33,084 with our captain, Juif. 452 00:30:34,501 --> 00:30:38,709 This is a mission, a grid search. 453 00:30:39,792 --> 00:30:42,709 Those are burning huts. 454 00:30:43,459 --> 00:30:46,792 I was scared. I won't lie. 455 00:30:46,959 --> 00:30:51,667 I valued my life. Others did too, but some... 456 00:30:51,834 --> 00:30:56,876 loved it, they loved war. 457 00:30:57,042 --> 00:30:59,626 You know, it... 458 00:30:59,792 --> 00:31:03,501 At first, you're surprised, because you never expect... 459 00:31:03,667 --> 00:31:10,209 Of course, we leave with an objective, on a mission, for a grid-search, 460 00:31:10,376 --> 00:31:14,626 following some intelligence, we know we're looking for someone, 461 00:31:14,792 --> 00:31:18,376 but it's also a big surprise when you hear shots. 462 00:31:18,542 --> 00:31:22,209 And in this case... 463 00:31:22,376 --> 00:31:27,001 it's automatic. You have a weapon, you defend yourself. 464 00:31:27,167 --> 00:31:31,334 Sometimes it went okay, sometimes not, 465 00:31:31,501 --> 00:31:36,876 since some of the guys didn't make it. 466 00:31:38,251 --> 00:31:41,792 What do you mean by "not okay"? 467 00:31:43,292 --> 00:31:46,834 Let's say that several times I was... 468 00:31:47,001 --> 00:31:51,834 we were surrounded by Fellaghas, that's what we called them, 469 00:31:52,001 --> 00:31:55,751 and we only survived 470 00:31:55,917 --> 00:31:59,542 thanks to artillery and air support. 471 00:31:59,709 --> 00:32:02,292 I'd heard 472 00:32:02,459 --> 00:32:06,376 Fellaghas calling to attack, "Bloody Frenchmen, we're coming." 473 00:32:06,542 --> 00:32:11,459 And we had no ammunition left. So in those cases, 474 00:32:11,626 --> 00:32:14,292 you just wait for the end, if you will. 475 00:32:17,709 --> 00:32:19,959 - You thought it was over. - Yeah. 476 00:32:29,709 --> 00:32:34,959 And there was another mission, 477 00:32:35,126 --> 00:32:38,667 where I can say it was this close for us. 478 00:32:38,834 --> 00:32:45,501 That day, it was the artillery who got us out of there. 479 00:32:45,667 --> 00:32:50,084 The captain called the artillery 480 00:32:50,251 --> 00:32:54,001 that was behind us, on the mission, 481 00:32:54,167 --> 00:32:58,376 and after we gave our position, they started firing, 482 00:32:58,542 --> 00:33:02,501 but we were so close to the Fellaghas 483 00:33:02,667 --> 00:33:06,584 that shells fell right in front of us, so much so 484 00:33:06,751 --> 00:33:10,001 that shrapnel hit us. I even... 485 00:33:10,167 --> 00:33:13,626 took one, close to me. 486 00:33:13,792 --> 00:33:15,251 You kept it as a souvenir? 487 00:33:15,417 --> 00:33:19,876 This piece of shrapnel is very important for me. 488 00:33:20,042 --> 00:33:24,459 A piece of shrapnel, and I can tell you these shells saved our lives. 489 00:33:24,626 --> 00:33:27,501 Another time, there was a skirmish in the woods. 490 00:33:27,667 --> 00:33:29,584 And... 491 00:33:29,751 --> 00:33:32,959 I had a rifle 492 00:33:33,126 --> 00:33:35,667 and that day I... 493 00:33:35,834 --> 00:33:39,417 I had used up all my clips. 494 00:33:39,584 --> 00:33:42,584 I had nothing left, so I was waiting. 495 00:33:42,751 --> 00:33:44,626 The Fellaghas were moving on us, 496 00:33:44,792 --> 00:33:48,959 and that day, the composure of our captain, 497 00:33:49,126 --> 00:33:51,167 Captain Juif... 498 00:33:51,334 --> 00:33:53,876 I have good memories of him. 499 00:33:55,167 --> 00:34:00,084 He gave us so much courage that we were able to respond. 500 00:34:00,251 --> 00:34:03,167 Bullets were flying everywhere, 501 00:34:03,334 --> 00:34:07,251 we could see them fall around us, the leaves falling. 502 00:34:07,417 --> 00:34:13,001 He stood tall and said, "Come on, kids, let's fall back." 503 00:34:13,167 --> 00:34:17,251 That day, I think he saved us. 504 00:34:17,417 --> 00:34:21,042 - You followed him? - We followed him. 505 00:34:21,209 --> 00:34:25,167 You have to follow somebody like that. 506 00:34:25,334 --> 00:34:29,501 It's great, it gives you a shot in the arm, 507 00:34:29,667 --> 00:34:32,626 you can react to... 508 00:34:34,042 --> 00:34:37,292 - And you had no ammo left? - No, I had nothing left. 509 00:34:37,459 --> 00:34:42,292 - And you said you were waiting... - I was, yeah. That day I got really scared. 510 00:34:42,459 --> 00:34:45,959 I thought about my family, my fiancée. 511 00:34:46,126 --> 00:34:48,376 And you just wait. 512 00:34:51,042 --> 00:34:54,626 Why is it so hard today to talk about that war? 513 00:34:54,792 --> 00:34:57,417 I know it seems ridiculous, 514 00:34:57,584 --> 00:34:59,792 but thirty years later, 515 00:34:59,959 --> 00:35:03,001 maybe it's my personality, 516 00:35:03,167 --> 00:35:05,709 but when you've seen death from that close, 517 00:35:05,876 --> 00:35:08,959 it's still emotional 30 years later. Yes. 518 00:35:10,084 --> 00:35:12,459 Do you talk about what you did there? 519 00:35:12,626 --> 00:35:15,459 No, I never talked about it. I think this is the first time. 520 00:35:15,626 --> 00:35:19,084 Even my family doesn't know all these details. 521 00:35:22,001 --> 00:35:25,917 I think it's a good thing for draftees to talk. 522 00:35:27,459 --> 00:35:29,792 Because in France, I think, 523 00:35:30,876 --> 00:35:36,376 except for the families who suffered, the others don't know the Algerian War. 524 00:35:37,042 --> 00:35:40,251 We will be walking up Grande Armée Avenue 525 00:35:40,417 --> 00:35:45,001 to the Étoile. Flags in front... 526 00:35:46,251 --> 00:35:49,084 - Do you feel pain when you talk about it? - Yes. 527 00:35:49,251 --> 00:35:50,501 A lot. 528 00:35:50,667 --> 00:35:53,876 "April 22nd, 1958, 529 00:35:54,042 --> 00:35:57,959 to the President of the Republic, I was drafted to go to Algeria. 530 00:35:58,126 --> 00:36:03,209 I chose to refuse to participate in the war France is waging in Algeria, 531 00:36:03,376 --> 00:36:06,542 threatening to spread all over North Africa. 532 00:36:06,709 --> 00:36:10,042 My conscience couldn't accept fighting against a people 533 00:36:10,209 --> 00:36:13,209 that I would like to consider a friend and an ally of France. 534 00:36:13,376 --> 00:36:16,042 I want to defend the friendship between the French and Algerians 535 00:36:16,209 --> 00:36:19,751 and stay faithful to the French traditions of justice and liberty, 536 00:36:19,917 --> 00:36:22,376 mentioned in the Constitution's preamble. 537 00:36:22,542 --> 00:36:25,876 I am ready to take up arms to defend the France I love 538 00:36:26,042 --> 00:36:29,376 more than anything if it is attacked, but I refuse 539 00:36:29,542 --> 00:36:33,417 to commit actions that would fill me with remorse. 540 00:36:33,584 --> 00:36:36,626 Please, Mr. President, believe in my attachment to 541 00:36:36,792 --> 00:36:39,292 and my high consideration for the French Republic 542 00:36:39,459 --> 00:36:41,876 and its constitution." 543 00:36:44,042 --> 00:36:45,542 You wrote that? 544 00:36:45,709 --> 00:36:49,084 I did, and I sent it 545 00:36:49,251 --> 00:36:53,042 to President Coty, since it was before May 13th. 546 00:36:54,209 --> 00:36:56,626 - He never replied, right? - Of course. 547 00:36:56,792 --> 00:37:00,417 What did your superiors at the Communist Party say 548 00:37:00,584 --> 00:37:05,251 - when you shared your decision? - They asked if I had the courage. 549 00:37:05,417 --> 00:37:08,167 It was a hard path to follow to the end 550 00:37:08,334 --> 00:37:10,876 knowing you will end up in jail for two years, 551 00:37:11,042 --> 00:37:16,001 in addition to the 28 months of military service. 552 00:37:16,167 --> 00:37:17,667 At that time, what was 553 00:37:17,834 --> 00:37:22,876 the Communist Party's official stance about disobedience? 554 00:37:23,042 --> 00:37:26,751 The party never encouraged disobedience or desertion. 555 00:37:26,917 --> 00:37:29,792 The Communist Party always said 556 00:37:29,959 --> 00:37:34,834 that soldiers belong to the army. They were right. 557 00:37:35,001 --> 00:37:40,292 I went to see the Communist Party's Federation Secretary 558 00:37:40,459 --> 00:37:43,792 to ask him how to join 559 00:37:43,959 --> 00:37:48,542 the few disobedient draftees. I was morally ready to do it. 560 00:37:48,709 --> 00:37:52,209 And he strongly discouraged it, 561 00:37:52,376 --> 00:37:54,876 saying that 562 00:37:55,042 --> 00:37:58,584 a Communist belonged in the army, under the Leninist principle. 563 00:37:58,751 --> 00:38:03,834 You weren't bothered when communist representatives voted for special powers? 564 00:38:04,001 --> 00:38:07,542 Afterwards. I asked the question afterwards. 565 00:38:07,709 --> 00:38:09,209 Not at the time. 566 00:38:09,376 --> 00:38:12,709 - You accepted it? - I did, because 567 00:38:12,876 --> 00:38:19,626 at that time, there could still be a chance for peace 568 00:38:19,792 --> 00:38:23,584 by a socialist government. 569 00:38:24,834 --> 00:38:27,542 That government didn't take the opportunity. 570 00:38:27,709 --> 00:38:30,792 But we thought it was still possible. 571 00:38:30,959 --> 00:38:34,292 We had to give them special powers so they'd have the means. 572 00:38:34,459 --> 00:38:36,376 Those means were to fight the war. 573 00:38:36,542 --> 00:38:40,292 That too, but we understood that later. 574 00:38:40,459 --> 00:38:45,167 - How late? - Much later. At the end. 575 00:38:45,334 --> 00:38:49,084 It seemed that special powers could 576 00:38:49,251 --> 00:38:52,126 contribute to, and should bring peace in Algeria, 577 00:38:52,292 --> 00:38:53,959 after negotiations. 578 00:38:54,126 --> 00:38:59,334 You'd left as a Communist beneath the uniform to oppose the war. 579 00:38:59,501 --> 00:39:04,751 Did you feel that you could somehow oppose it on the field? 580 00:39:04,917 --> 00:39:08,667 It doesn't seem obvious, indeed, 581 00:39:08,834 --> 00:39:11,376 to be able to protest while being in uniform. 582 00:39:11,542 --> 00:39:15,334 I was fearful of going there as a Communist. 583 00:39:15,501 --> 00:39:19,042 I had a few friends who had returned 584 00:39:19,209 --> 00:39:24,167 after being re-drafted, and who told 585 00:39:24,334 --> 00:39:28,542 about what happened to them, the bullying, the humiliations, 586 00:39:28,709 --> 00:39:31,209 a fear that was forced on them, 587 00:39:31,376 --> 00:39:36,459 and I think it made me more afraid, and revolted by the war, that's true. 588 00:39:36,626 --> 00:39:38,042 But you left anyway. 589 00:39:38,209 --> 00:39:42,042 I left anyway, yes. 590 00:39:42,209 --> 00:39:43,959 The atmosphere was such 591 00:39:44,126 --> 00:39:48,626 that if you were isolated, there was no other choice. 592 00:39:48,792 --> 00:39:51,667 - You carried a rifle like the others. - Of course. 593 00:39:51,834 --> 00:39:55,667 - And if you had to shoot, you'd do it. - Of course. For sure. 594 00:39:55,834 --> 00:40:01,584 When I went out, even when I had R&R, 595 00:40:01,751 --> 00:40:03,917 I also had a gun on me. 596 00:40:04,084 --> 00:40:08,042 And indeed, if you had to shoot you had to shoot. 597 00:40:08,209 --> 00:40:11,167 In the right situation, 598 00:40:11,334 --> 00:40:13,501 including if it were to save my own life. 599 00:40:13,667 --> 00:40:16,959 There was a complete divorce between what happened and your convictions. 600 00:40:17,126 --> 00:40:19,417 I don't know if you can say that, 601 00:40:19,584 --> 00:40:22,334 it was also about our lives. 602 00:40:22,501 --> 00:40:27,042 We were fighting a war. 603 00:40:27,209 --> 00:40:31,417 And that war makes you 604 00:40:31,584 --> 00:40:35,626 adopt stances that contradict those you defend. 605 00:40:35,792 --> 00:40:38,959 If I had seen one of my buddies maimed, 606 00:40:39,126 --> 00:40:44,334 I would certainly have adopted stances that were... 607 00:40:44,501 --> 00:40:47,542 - Warlike. - Yes, for sure. 608 00:40:48,251 --> 00:40:52,542 - Did you see wounded Algerians? - Yes. 609 00:40:52,709 --> 00:40:57,834 I thought about it a lot. I picked up a wounded man, 610 00:40:58,001 --> 00:41:02,334 and I talked to him... Well, questioned him, 611 00:41:02,501 --> 00:41:06,042 and I found out he had worked at the Saint-Etienne mine. 612 00:41:06,209 --> 00:41:08,209 He was a Saint-Etienne miner. 613 00:41:08,376 --> 00:41:11,917 An Algerian worker who... 614 00:41:12,084 --> 00:41:16,584 at that time had joined the FLN to fight the French Army. 615 00:41:16,751 --> 00:41:21,292 It affected me quite a bit, the fact that... 616 00:41:21,459 --> 00:41:24,376 I, a worker, found myself 617 00:41:24,542 --> 00:41:28,084 facing another worker because of the government's will. 618 00:41:28,251 --> 00:41:31,292 As a Communist activist 619 00:41:31,459 --> 00:41:34,251 I was suspicious, and I was arrested 620 00:41:34,417 --> 00:41:39,209 because ammunition was missing, they said. 621 00:41:39,376 --> 00:41:44,917 And well, a detachment from Michelet came to arrest three men. 622 00:41:45,084 --> 00:41:48,667 I was among them, I think there was a... 623 00:41:48,834 --> 00:41:52,209 a Musl... yes, a Muslim soldier with me, 624 00:41:52,376 --> 00:41:55,042 and a third man I've forgotten about, 625 00:41:55,209 --> 00:41:57,459 and we were taken 626 00:41:57,626 --> 00:42:02,542 to a police detachment facility, we called them DOP, 627 00:42:02,709 --> 00:42:05,417 where I was interrogated, 628 00:42:05,584 --> 00:42:09,042 and where I could hear 629 00:42:09,209 --> 00:42:12,834 in the neighboring rooms, the screams 630 00:42:13,001 --> 00:42:16,167 of people who were being beaten or tortured, yes. 631 00:42:16,334 --> 00:42:20,584 I spent two nights there, 632 00:42:20,751 --> 00:42:25,251 and I heard people, and women, 633 00:42:25,417 --> 00:42:28,584 being beaten or tortured. 634 00:42:28,751 --> 00:42:30,292 And what happened to you? 635 00:42:31,584 --> 00:42:34,834 Well, I got beat up a little, but not too much. 636 00:42:35,001 --> 00:42:37,542 Threats, many threats. 637 00:42:37,709 --> 00:42:41,751 I was married, I had a child, 638 00:42:41,917 --> 00:42:44,792 so they threatened my... 639 00:42:44,959 --> 00:42:49,292 me never going back to civilian life, verbal threats. 640 00:42:49,459 --> 00:42:52,001 And I don't know, after two days... 641 00:42:52,167 --> 00:42:56,417 after two nights, I was released. 642 00:42:56,584 --> 00:42:59,376 They gave me my weapon back, they had taken it, 643 00:42:59,542 --> 00:43:02,751 and it was a sign that I was no longer a soldier for 48 hours. 644 00:43:02,917 --> 00:43:06,209 And they moved me to another section, they put me in operations. 645 00:43:06,376 --> 00:43:10,292 What happened after your letter to the president? 646 00:43:10,459 --> 00:43:13,584 I was immediately locked up. 647 00:43:13,751 --> 00:43:18,709 In prison. I was put aside, isolated from other soldiers, 648 00:43:18,876 --> 00:43:22,876 because they feared contagion, if you will. 649 00:43:23,042 --> 00:43:27,167 And I was escorted 650 00:43:27,334 --> 00:43:33,626 to Algeria in the regiment I was supposed to join. 651 00:43:33,792 --> 00:43:38,834 How did the officers treat you 652 00:43:39,001 --> 00:43:41,501 when you joined? 653 00:43:41,667 --> 00:43:46,042 They wanted to force me to go on missions. 654 00:43:46,209 --> 00:43:48,084 They tried everything. 655 00:43:48,251 --> 00:43:50,667 They pressured me, 656 00:43:50,834 --> 00:43:53,292 they tried to send me out there without a weapon, 657 00:43:53,459 --> 00:43:57,959 with a radio. They tried everything, I refused. 658 00:43:58,126 --> 00:44:02,209 I said, no, I won't take part in this war that goes against my conscience. 659 00:44:02,376 --> 00:44:05,084 Was there physical pressure? 660 00:44:06,542 --> 00:44:08,959 Not when I refused, but after that 661 00:44:09,126 --> 00:44:11,792 when I was jailed at Cherchell Military School. 662 00:44:11,959 --> 00:44:15,792 - How long after that? - In the couple of weeks that followed. 663 00:44:15,959 --> 00:44:18,667 I was brutalized by paratroopers. 664 00:44:20,001 --> 00:44:24,292 - What do you mean by "brutalized"? - They clubbed me 665 00:44:24,459 --> 00:44:28,167 - with a baton. - What did they say? 666 00:44:30,126 --> 00:44:32,209 I don't remember exactly, 667 00:44:32,376 --> 00:44:37,001 but the officer was obviously 668 00:44:37,167 --> 00:44:39,001 an officer from the right, far-right even, 669 00:44:39,167 --> 00:44:42,209 and he said something like, 670 00:44:42,376 --> 00:44:47,167 "Guys like you should be shot." 671 00:44:47,334 --> 00:44:49,751 He threatened me with his gun. 672 00:44:51,376 --> 00:44:55,417 - Did you fear for your life then? - You don't think about that. 673 00:44:57,501 --> 00:45:01,626 How long did you stay in jail at Cherchell? 674 00:45:01,792 --> 00:45:04,709 A couple of weeks, 675 00:45:04,876 --> 00:45:09,042 then I was transferred to the Algiers' military prison, 676 00:45:10,459 --> 00:45:12,959 where I found other soldiers in my case. 677 00:45:13,126 --> 00:45:15,126 During the entire war 678 00:45:15,292 --> 00:45:19,084 there were about 40 guys 679 00:45:19,251 --> 00:45:24,417 who refused to serve... 680 00:45:26,626 --> 00:45:31,876 and who accepted to go before the court and be sentenced. 681 00:45:32,042 --> 00:45:36,417 What were the conditions in the Algiers' military prison? 682 00:45:36,584 --> 00:45:41,751 We were in like underground cells. 683 00:45:41,917 --> 00:45:44,917 We didn't see much light. 684 00:45:45,084 --> 00:45:50,001 There was two of us in a cell that was meant for one inmate. 685 00:45:50,167 --> 00:45:55,292 And we would have our yard time between very high walls, 686 00:45:55,459 --> 00:45:58,417 and we saw the sun a few hours a day. 687 00:45:58,584 --> 00:46:02,084 But were not abused, we were... 688 00:46:02,251 --> 00:46:04,501 fed normally. 689 00:46:04,667 --> 00:46:07,709 That's when you went to military court? 690 00:46:07,876 --> 00:46:11,292 I went in August 1958, 691 00:46:11,459 --> 00:46:16,209 and I was sentenced to two years in jail for disobedience. 692 00:46:16,376 --> 00:46:19,792 - And then you were transferred to France? - In the Fall. 693 00:46:21,251 --> 00:46:26,126 The ten or twelve 694 00:46:26,292 --> 00:46:28,792 from Algiers' prison, 695 00:46:28,959 --> 00:46:31,834 plus others who were from other prisons in Algeria. 696 00:46:32,001 --> 00:46:35,584 The fifteen of us were transferred 697 00:46:35,751 --> 00:46:37,917 to Nîmes' central prison. 698 00:46:38,084 --> 00:46:42,542 - How were the conditions there? - Much better. 699 00:46:42,709 --> 00:46:45,959 We were with common law inmates, very long sentences, 700 00:46:46,126 --> 00:46:48,792 life in prison for 15 years. 701 00:46:48,959 --> 00:46:52,084 - We wondered why they put us there. - Did you talk to them? 702 00:46:52,251 --> 00:46:55,542 We talked to them, lived with them. 703 00:46:55,709 --> 00:46:59,667 But we had the guards' sympathy and help, 704 00:46:59,834 --> 00:47:03,917 who, for union and political reasons, helped us. They'd send our mail, 705 00:47:04,084 --> 00:47:07,959 send us care packages, gave us the news... 706 00:47:08,126 --> 00:47:10,709 newspapers mostly, which were forbidden for us. 707 00:47:11,459 --> 00:47:14,376 When I got out, I was reenlisted. 708 00:47:14,542 --> 00:47:17,459 Prison didn't exempt you from military service. 709 00:47:17,626 --> 00:47:20,292 I still had 14 months to do. 710 00:47:20,459 --> 00:47:23,542 I did two months in France, and I was sent back to Algeria. 711 00:47:23,709 --> 00:47:27,751 - And you didn't refuse to go? - I didn't refuse to... 712 00:47:27,917 --> 00:47:31,376 a second time. First, because I'd already sacrificed 713 00:47:31,542 --> 00:47:35,834 two years of my youth, and it was still hard 714 00:47:36,001 --> 00:47:38,459 for my family, my wife, and for me 715 00:47:38,626 --> 00:47:40,792 to go for another two years. 716 00:47:40,959 --> 00:47:46,042 And maybe because it wasn't as necessary because the war 717 00:47:46,209 --> 00:47:47,792 was already very criticized. 718 00:47:47,959 --> 00:47:50,376 When you ended up with a uniform and a rifle 719 00:47:50,542 --> 00:47:53,667 on a mission in Algeria, didn't you feel you went against 720 00:47:53,834 --> 00:47:56,126 your disobedience from two years before? 721 00:47:56,292 --> 00:47:57,876 A little but... 722 00:47:58,042 --> 00:48:03,667 I was lucky enough to not ask myself that question directly. 723 00:48:03,834 --> 00:48:07,917 How did you feel when you saw or heard about 724 00:48:08,084 --> 00:48:12,209 young draftees, Communists or young Christians 725 00:48:12,376 --> 00:48:15,626 fighting the war in a hard way? 726 00:48:19,626 --> 00:48:23,001 I thought they were wrong, that they were brainwashed, 727 00:48:23,167 --> 00:48:26,459 because... Brainwashed by the army's official propaganda. 728 00:48:26,626 --> 00:48:29,459 I saw one of my mates, 729 00:48:29,626 --> 00:48:32,126 in my regiment, 730 00:48:32,292 --> 00:48:36,792 who was in the Communist Youth as a civilian, 731 00:48:36,959 --> 00:48:40,584 he was a father and a husband, 732 00:48:40,751 --> 00:48:44,417 and one day I caught him torturing along with the captain. 733 00:48:44,584 --> 00:48:47,834 - It made me feel... I saw it. - You saw him? 734 00:48:48,001 --> 00:48:52,667 I wasn't supposed to enter the room where it happened, 735 00:48:52,834 --> 00:48:56,917 but then I was sent in 736 00:48:57,084 --> 00:49:00,417 to give a message to the captain, and I saw what was happening. 737 00:49:00,584 --> 00:49:03,376 - What kind of torture? - It was the Bathtub. 738 00:49:03,542 --> 00:49:07,084 And... I... 739 00:49:07,251 --> 00:49:09,334 I was devastated. 740 00:49:09,501 --> 00:49:14,292 If it had been a paratrooper, I knew they did that, 741 00:49:14,459 --> 00:49:17,792 specialized units did that, 742 00:49:17,959 --> 00:49:20,917 but I didn't think a young draftee 743 00:49:22,251 --> 00:49:25,917 could do that, and I don't think he was alone, there were others. 744 00:49:26,084 --> 00:49:30,042 - Did you talk to him after that? - No. I didn't dare. 745 00:49:30,209 --> 00:49:34,042 I didn't dare blame him, because... I don't know. 746 00:49:34,209 --> 00:49:37,251 How can you explain a young Communist practicing torture? 747 00:49:37,417 --> 00:49:41,876 You know, we were 20 years old and... 748 00:49:44,459 --> 00:49:49,126 Uh... They were 749 00:49:49,292 --> 00:49:53,376 manipulated by the army, and the official propaganda 750 00:49:53,542 --> 00:49:56,542 eventually worked on some 751 00:49:56,709 --> 00:49:57,959 and... 752 00:49:59,542 --> 00:50:02,626 carrying a weapon gives strength... 753 00:50:04,001 --> 00:50:09,084 to someone who usually doesn't have it. 754 00:50:09,251 --> 00:50:12,167 It validated him, perhaps. 755 00:50:14,751 --> 00:50:17,251 He felt like a man, perhaps. 756 00:50:17,417 --> 00:50:20,792 What did you think at that point 757 00:50:20,959 --> 00:50:25,626 about soldiers who deserted? Like Noël Favrelière. 758 00:50:28,126 --> 00:50:30,292 At the time, 759 00:50:30,459 --> 00:50:34,251 I thought they were wrong. Now, I think they were right. 760 00:50:37,126 --> 00:50:38,417 Why? 761 00:50:43,251 --> 00:50:46,251 I think I lacked courage 762 00:50:46,417 --> 00:50:49,876 and that I should have deserted. 763 00:50:50,042 --> 00:50:52,126 And defected to the FLN. 764 00:51:02,042 --> 00:51:04,459 During the last war, 765 00:51:04,626 --> 00:51:07,376 in the resistance, in Vercors, we saw 766 00:51:07,542 --> 00:51:12,042 Germans who had deserted. They were right. 767 00:51:12,209 --> 00:51:14,542 Even if they fought Germans. 768 00:51:19,084 --> 00:51:21,584 The soldiers of Algeria are talking to you. 769 00:51:21,751 --> 00:51:25,251 Tonight, let's listen to soldiers' messages to their families 770 00:51:25,417 --> 00:51:29,001 from postal code 88106. 771 00:51:29,167 --> 00:51:31,959 Corporals Marcel Innocenti, 772 00:51:32,126 --> 00:51:35,376 Maurice Duhamel; infantrymen Bernard Lessieurs, 773 00:51:35,542 --> 00:51:38,292 Bernard Minierlus, and although 774 00:51:38,459 --> 00:51:42,334 they are just in from Europe, are happy to tell their parents 775 00:51:42,501 --> 00:51:45,167 that the warm welcome from their brothers 776 00:51:45,334 --> 00:51:48,626 was able to lessen the departure's regrets. 777 00:51:48,792 --> 00:51:54,084 Libois, Maurice: "My little woman, kisses to you and my little girl. 778 00:51:54,251 --> 00:51:58,042 I hope I will soon be with you. 779 00:51:58,209 --> 00:52:00,334 Say hello to the family, Maurice." 780 00:52:11,751 --> 00:52:14,084 We had no Contact with the population. 781 00:52:14,251 --> 00:52:16,959 - You guys were isolated, right? - Completely. 782 00:52:17,126 --> 00:52:21,834 The only contact we had with Europeans was at the hospital. 783 00:52:22,001 --> 00:52:24,917 It admitted the French as well as the... 784 00:52:25,084 --> 00:52:27,876 - The Sainte-Eugénie hospital. - Sainte-Eugénie. 785 00:52:28,042 --> 00:52:32,126 - He can talk about it. - They admitted French 786 00:52:32,292 --> 00:52:34,292 and Arab patients wounded in combat. 787 00:52:34,459 --> 00:52:38,501 - And you were wounded... - I... 788 00:52:38,667 --> 00:52:41,001 I took a... 789 00:52:41,167 --> 00:52:43,334 A rebel shot me point blank. 790 00:52:43,501 --> 00:52:46,042 I remember it well, there was a... 791 00:52:46,209 --> 00:52:50,084 There was a very thick bush, you wanted to go through. 792 00:52:50,251 --> 00:52:55,209 We couldn't do it, so we sent Perrin, the bulldozer. And you were wounded. 793 00:52:55,376 --> 00:52:58,167 Then they evacuated me to Sainte-Eugénie, 794 00:52:58,334 --> 00:53:01,042 the hospital that had no security. 795 00:53:02,126 --> 00:53:04,501 There was a little hospital between Tizi-Ouzou 796 00:53:04,667 --> 00:53:07,251 and Fort National, a field hospital. 797 00:53:08,584 --> 00:53:11,709 It was run by sisters. 798 00:53:11,876 --> 00:53:13,459 Do you remember that hospital? 799 00:53:13,626 --> 00:53:16,834 - Vaguely. - And the doctor was a European. 800 00:53:20,084 --> 00:53:22,501 Night was about to fall, 801 00:53:22,667 --> 00:53:25,417 so we stopped there for the night. 802 00:53:27,167 --> 00:53:30,334 But hey, they put me in a bed 803 00:53:30,501 --> 00:53:33,959 next to the thugs that were aligned in front of me. 804 00:53:34,126 --> 00:53:38,376 They were full of holes. One had a bullet... They were FLN. 805 00:53:38,542 --> 00:53:41,667 FLN, MNA, they're the same to me. 806 00:53:41,834 --> 00:53:45,584 One had a bullet in his cheek, his head was like this, 807 00:53:45,751 --> 00:53:49,667 and the others had them in the gut. And I was lying down, 808 00:53:49,834 --> 00:53:52,709 no watch at night, and my chums next door. 809 00:53:54,667 --> 00:53:59,292 I laid low. Even knowing they were wounded, I laid low. 810 00:53:59,459 --> 00:54:02,084 I spent the night awake. 811 00:54:02,251 --> 00:54:05,001 I had my gun next to me, and I thought 812 00:54:05,167 --> 00:54:06,917 we'll see. I didn't sleep. 813 00:54:07,084 --> 00:54:09,501 You had to be brave. 814 00:54:09,667 --> 00:54:14,417 You had to go. - Sisters ran the hospital, 815 00:54:14,584 --> 00:54:16,834 and I had my own room, 816 00:54:17,001 --> 00:54:21,834 and next door there was a dorm with 26 Fellaghas. 817 00:54:22,001 --> 00:54:24,334 You thought, "That's it, I'm a Fell prisoner"? 818 00:54:24,501 --> 00:54:30,042 I told the sister I wanted to go to Tizi-Ouzou or... 819 00:54:30,209 --> 00:54:32,667 She just said, don't be afraid. 820 00:54:32,834 --> 00:54:35,751 - You were totally safe. Better than... - I can tell you... 821 00:54:35,917 --> 00:54:40,667 It's true, I was very well taken care of in that hospital. 822 00:54:40,834 --> 00:54:43,584 Robert Zanoni, Raymond Didier, 823 00:54:43,751 --> 00:54:47,626 René Perrin and Bernard Molroguier, who are sharing memories, 824 00:54:47,792 --> 00:54:49,751 met over 30 years ago. 825 00:54:50,834 --> 00:54:52,751 They fought the war together, 826 00:54:52,917 --> 00:54:56,542 in the same regiment', the 6th BOA. 827 00:54:56,709 --> 00:55:00,584 A tough, violent, exhausting war. 828 00:55:00,751 --> 00:55:04,917 A fifth man is missing. Henri Girard. 829 00:55:05,084 --> 00:55:09,042 The image I keep is that 830 00:55:09,209 --> 00:55:12,084 of a kid's image of her older brother 831 00:55:12,251 --> 00:55:15,251 who was 20, I was 12 so... 832 00:55:15,417 --> 00:55:18,626 He was handsome, 833 00:55:18,792 --> 00:55:21,751 very agreeable, I adored him. 834 00:55:22,834 --> 00:55:26,542 A mason in Pont-de-Claix met Didier before deploying to Algeria. 835 00:55:26,709 --> 00:55:30,167 And together, like Didier says, they partied. 836 00:55:31,084 --> 00:55:33,251 On the peaks of Kabylia, he was with Perrin, 837 00:55:33,417 --> 00:55:38,126 Zanoni and Molroguier, nicknamed Mo! on the pictures he took. 838 00:55:38,292 --> 00:55:40,584 With them, he raised hell. 839 00:55:40,751 --> 00:55:44,042 With them, he suffered and trudged. 840 00:55:44,209 --> 00:55:47,334 He was awarded the Cross of Military Valor and two citations, 841 00:55:47,501 --> 00:55:51,709 including one for saving a fellow soldier wounded under enemy fire. 842 00:55:52,876 --> 00:55:56,126 Then, one day in January 1959... 843 00:55:56,292 --> 00:56:00,542 The entire company left for the ridges to hold them. 844 00:56:01,626 --> 00:56:05,709 And Girard, with the group, 845 00:56:07,209 --> 00:56:12,001 we were in position, we were scouts to clear the ground in front. 846 00:56:13,376 --> 00:56:16,959 We were half an hour away from the company, 847 00:56:17,126 --> 00:56:18,459 from the section even. 848 00:56:19,209 --> 00:56:22,084 Lieutenant Guignard led us. 849 00:56:22,251 --> 00:56:26,001 - He was from Lyon. - He was a draftee. 850 00:56:28,542 --> 00:56:33,126 On a side note, this lieutenant spent the night in the barbed wire fence because 851 00:56:33,292 --> 00:56:35,792 he wanted us to shave every morning. 852 00:56:35,959 --> 00:56:38,626 We weren't used to it. 853 00:56:38,792 --> 00:56:42,001 - He wanted to discipline us. - Discipline. 854 00:56:42,167 --> 00:56:46,584 Coming out from the mess hall, we wanted to take him. 855 00:56:46,751 --> 00:56:49,584 We took him, tied him up and put him on the barb wire. 856 00:56:49,751 --> 00:56:53,792 We told the guard not to shoot there 857 00:56:53,959 --> 00:56:57,126 because Guignard couldn't get out from the barbwire. 858 00:56:58,917 --> 00:57:01,626 We went to get him in the middle of the night. 859 00:57:03,334 --> 00:57:05,542 We got nothing. 860 00:57:06,792 --> 00:57:08,876 Well, anyway. 861 00:57:09,042 --> 00:57:13,542 And now we were positioned in front, half an hour from the section. 862 00:57:15,126 --> 00:57:18,459 We are ordered to leave, 863 00:57:18,626 --> 00:57:21,626 to climb the peak to watch. 864 00:57:21,792 --> 00:57:24,751 I tell Girard, Henri, 865 00:57:24,917 --> 00:57:28,876 "We're going to sweat, I'm taking my jacket off." 866 00:57:29,042 --> 00:57:32,751 Then suddenly there was an explosion, I thought we were being attacked. 867 00:57:33,917 --> 00:57:36,334 I took off my jacket. 868 00:57:36,501 --> 00:57:39,251 In that moment, you take your weapon and fire. 869 00:57:39,417 --> 00:57:41,209 Anywhere, but you fire. 870 00:57:43,126 --> 00:57:47,501 Nothing, no bullet, no detonation. It was weird. 871 00:57:49,042 --> 00:57:52,251 I turn around and Girard was... 872 00:57:52,417 --> 00:57:54,167 - Yeah. - He was dead. 873 00:57:55,667 --> 00:57:59,251 And Jocelin... I didn't see anyone. 874 00:57:59,417 --> 00:58:02,751 I started calling, nobody answered. 875 00:58:02,917 --> 00:58:07,542 I thought, "That's not an attack, something's going on." 876 00:58:07,709 --> 00:58:12,209 I look behind the ridge to see if someone was there. No one. 877 00:58:12,376 --> 00:58:16,584 The lieutenant was screaming his lungs out. 878 00:58:16,751 --> 00:58:19,209 Barbereau, who was behind... 879 00:58:19,376 --> 00:58:22,126 There were two rocks, Barbereau was here. 880 00:58:22,292 --> 00:58:24,876 Barbereau was blind. 881 00:58:25,042 --> 00:58:28,334 Perez's ears were bleeding, half dead. 882 00:58:28,501 --> 00:58:32,459 They were all wounded, except me. 883 00:58:32,626 --> 00:58:37,751 Girard was half a yard away from me, no more, we were together. 884 00:58:39,334 --> 00:58:42,584 Right away I ran to him, 885 00:58:42,751 --> 00:58:47,084 turned him around and I saw that one of his grenades had exploded. 886 00:58:47,251 --> 00:58:52,459 The pin accidentally pulled. I was left alone with five or six wounded. 887 00:58:53,542 --> 00:58:55,667 Barbereau was behind a rock, 888 00:58:55,834 --> 00:58:59,334 he was hit in the back of the neck. 889 00:58:59,501 --> 00:59:02,626 Here. Made him blind. 890 00:59:02,792 --> 00:59:05,084 - He's been blind since? - No, he... 891 00:59:05,251 --> 00:59:08,251 - He lost his sight temporarily. - Temporarily? 892 00:59:08,417 --> 00:59:10,876 He wasn't very cheerful to begin with. 893 00:59:11,042 --> 00:59:13,084 They were all quite damaged. 894 00:59:13,251 --> 00:59:16,209 Actually one died after that, two weeks later. 895 00:59:16,376 --> 00:59:19,709 - He died. - Bézière bled through his ears. 896 00:59:21,042 --> 00:59:24,042 - That's bad. - Not a good sign. 897 00:59:24,209 --> 00:59:26,542 Then the others came in. 898 00:59:27,917 --> 00:59:31,876 Everyone was on the peak, the chopper couldn't come. 899 00:59:33,376 --> 00:59:36,292 The wounded were carried down on people's backs 900 00:59:36,459 --> 00:59:39,667 500 meters down. It was nearly vertical but not very far. 901 00:59:39,834 --> 00:59:42,251 I carried three on my back myself. 902 00:59:43,126 --> 00:59:45,042 We were 20 years old, we were in shape. 903 00:59:45,209 --> 00:59:50,167 The news came to us one day during lunch. 904 00:59:50,334 --> 00:59:55,459 The mayor came with a deputy while we were eating. 905 00:59:56,542 --> 01:00:00,126 He had just received a wire. 906 01:00:01,834 --> 01:00:04,626 It was very, very hard. 907 01:00:04,792 --> 01:00:07,709 I had a very violent reaction. 908 01:00:14,959 --> 01:00:17,667 It was unbearable actually. 909 01:00:17,834 --> 01:00:20,917 We couldn't believe it. It's not something you can accept 910 01:00:21,084 --> 01:00:24,126 in the moment. It was inacceptable. 911 01:00:25,626 --> 01:00:27,084 I... 912 01:00:29,626 --> 01:00:33,584 I suffered... I experienced such pain. 913 01:00:33,751 --> 01:00:39,459 I didn't know that it existed, that you could hurt like that... 914 01:00:42,751 --> 01:00:45,501 In the moment, it represented 915 01:00:45,667 --> 01:00:50,209 such devastation that I still feel pain talking about it now. 916 01:00:51,751 --> 01:00:53,376 It's... 917 01:00:56,126 --> 01:00:58,292 I was revolted. 918 01:00:58,459 --> 01:01:04,209 I was a teenager, times that were already hard. 919 01:01:06,542 --> 01:01:08,376 It upended my life. 920 01:01:08,542 --> 01:01:12,084 I went to his funeral... 921 01:01:12,251 --> 01:01:13,917 with... 922 01:01:15,959 --> 01:01:20,334 Gilbert Flandin, a young man. 923 01:01:20,501 --> 01:01:24,167 And Jean Sescatto from La Mute. 924 01:01:24,334 --> 01:01:27,001 There was a huge crowd. 925 01:01:27,167 --> 01:01:31,209 There was a group from the 6th BCA. 926 01:01:31,376 --> 01:01:34,376 They came to serve as pallbearers. 927 01:01:34,542 --> 01:01:36,626 There were many people. 928 01:01:38,209 --> 01:01:42,209 We lived almost two years together. 929 01:01:42,376 --> 01:01:45,834 Yes, the military brought us together. 930 01:01:50,417 --> 01:01:53,709 The peace at the cemetery where Henri Girard rests today 931 01:01:53,876 --> 01:01:58,251 is only disturbed by the din of the Rhône-Poulenc factory nearby. 932 01:02:00,501 --> 01:02:04,709 Like him, 8,000 draftees accidentally died in Algeria. 933 01:02:04,876 --> 01:02:08,417 Exploding grenades, jammed rifles, land mines, 934 01:02:08,584 --> 01:02:11,876 stray bullets, overturned trucks. 935 01:02:12,042 --> 01:02:15,167 Eight thousand dead, a third of the total casualties. 936 01:02:16,376 --> 01:02:19,209 The Pont-de-Claix municipality in Grenoble's outskirts, 937 01:02:19,376 --> 01:02:22,084 named a park after Henri Girard. 938 01:02:23,209 --> 01:02:27,292 The adjacent street's plaque commemorates the ceasefire in Algeria, 939 01:02:27,459 --> 01:02:30,334 March 19th, 1962. 940 01:02:30,501 --> 01:02:35,251 The unintentional irony? Unfortunate coincidence? It is a dead end. 941 01:02:37,084 --> 01:02:42,167 On the back of this picture, his last, taken five days before he died, 942 01:02:42,334 --> 01:02:47,501 Henri Girard wrote: "Oh yes, it's a beautiful country. ” 943 01:02:49,376 --> 01:02:54,042 - You were like the leader of the pack. - Exactly. 944 01:02:54,209 --> 01:02:59,667 I was the leader of the pack, of the village, of everything. 945 01:02:59,834 --> 01:03:04,709 I created a Harka, from A to Z, I trained people, taught them. 946 01:03:04,876 --> 01:03:08,459 I was helped tremendously 947 01:03:08,626 --> 01:03:14,917 by an old Algerian man, who'd done the Campaign of Monte Cassino. 948 01:03:15,084 --> 01:03:20,126 He was a watchman at a soap factory. When he learned his country was ablaze, 949 01:03:20,292 --> 01:03:25,126 especially in the Aurès mountains, he put himself at the French Army's disposal. 950 01:03:25,292 --> 01:03:32,251 You have to know that the people in the Aurès are excessively simple. 951 01:03:32,417 --> 01:03:35,334 Meaning that, for them, 952 01:03:35,501 --> 01:03:40,876 for instance, the first principle I learned was to never take defectors. 953 01:03:41,042 --> 01:03:46,751 And why is that? Someone who betrayed once, can do it twice. 954 01:03:46,917 --> 01:03:52,292 Sometimes we visited "transit centers," meaning prisons, 955 01:03:52,459 --> 01:03:55,334 and we told them simply, 956 01:03:55,501 --> 01:04:00,834 "Would you rather stay in prison or fight with us? 957 01:04:01,001 --> 01:04:06,292 You'll be clothed and paid." 958 01:04:06,459 --> 01:04:09,792 - Why were they in prison? - They were FLN. 959 01:04:09,959 --> 01:04:14,001 - Did you test them? - We did. 960 01:04:14,167 --> 01:04:17,334 Here again, we tried... 961 01:04:17,501 --> 01:04:21,001 Maybe they had to renounce their religion, 962 01:04:21,167 --> 01:04:24,792 since they were simple people, it could work, 963 01:04:24,959 --> 01:04:29,209 concretely that meant making them drink alcohol. 964 01:04:29,376 --> 01:04:33,001 When I say alcohol, I'm talking about a can of beer. 965 01:04:34,834 --> 01:04:40,167 Then we took these people 966 01:04:40,334 --> 01:04:45,709 from villages, we rarely took single men. 967 01:04:45,876 --> 01:04:49,084 Always married with children. 968 01:04:49,251 --> 01:04:56,167 - And I'll admit it worked very well since... - You would watch the family? 969 01:04:56,334 --> 01:05:00,667 Not so much, the family was not held hostage. 970 01:05:00,834 --> 01:05:04,209 It was important to realize that if the man 971 01:05:04,376 --> 01:05:08,501 wanted to desert and steal weapons, 972 01:05:08,667 --> 01:05:12,292 he would have to abandon his family. 973 01:05:12,459 --> 01:05:16,459 And he had only one fear, that we would 974 01:05:16,626 --> 01:05:19,334 retaliate on his family, which we would never have done. 975 01:05:19,501 --> 01:05:24,084 In the beginning, I only had 30 people in the field, 976 01:05:24,251 --> 01:05:26,834 it wasn't much. 977 01:05:27,001 --> 01:05:32,042 Poorly armed, the first weapons we had when we set up Harkas 978 01:05:32,209 --> 01:05:38,959 were Lebels 1917 with ammunition from the same era. 979 01:05:39,126 --> 01:05:45,376 I was supposed to disarm the Harka every night and put the rifles away. 980 01:05:45,542 --> 01:05:49,917 I never did that. 981 01:05:50,084 --> 01:05:54,501 I trusted them and I don't see how I could have trusted them 982 01:05:54,667 --> 01:06:01,334 if I'd shown... They wouldn't have understood if I'd taken their weapons. 983 01:06:01,501 --> 01:06:02,876 I was breaking the rules. 984 01:06:03,042 --> 01:06:05,959 But I never had one deserter, 985 01:06:06,126 --> 01:06:09,417 I never had to complain, on the contrary. 986 01:06:09,584 --> 01:06:11,459 My life's great regret 987 01:06:11,626 --> 01:06:14,876 is to have involved them in that adventure, meaning... 988 01:06:15,042 --> 01:06:20,042 I really believed in it, because as a young lieutenant, I was told, 989 01:06:20,209 --> 01:06:24,334 "France has to be in Algeria." 990 01:06:24,501 --> 01:06:28,209 We relayed the message. They believed in it. 991 01:06:30,709 --> 01:06:37,209 These people knew how to see everything. They observed nature, were close to it, 992 01:06:37,376 --> 01:06:43,626 a little like our old farmers. They easily found hiding places. 993 01:06:43,792 --> 01:06:47,792 I witnessed the discovery of an armory by a group of Harkis. 994 01:06:47,959 --> 01:06:52,667 A paratrooper unit had searched the area for a day, didn't find anything. 995 01:06:52,834 --> 01:06:58,751 An intelligence officer tells me to try with my Harkis 996 01:06:58,917 --> 01:07:02,001 and I admit that, while our colleagues 997 01:07:02,167 --> 01:07:06,084 taunted us, 998 01:07:06,251 --> 01:07:08,459 we started searching. 999 01:07:08,626 --> 01:07:13,167 At some point, a Harki came to me and said, "I found it, lieutenant." 1000 01:07:13,334 --> 01:07:16,542 He showed me a tree, an oak tree. 1001 01:07:16,709 --> 01:07:22,959 There was a branch five feet from the ground, but it had no leaves. 1002 01:07:23,126 --> 01:07:28,292 It was in a forbidden zone, no population was supposed to be there. 1003 01:07:28,459 --> 01:07:31,709 He tells me, "See this branch? 1004 01:07:31,876 --> 01:07:38,876 There's no leaves, a mule ate them, meaning a heavy load was brought here." 1005 01:07:39,042 --> 01:07:42,876 And he went around the tree, and after a while he said, "I found it." 1006 01:07:43,042 --> 01:07:45,876 That's the earth from the bottom, not the top." 1007 01:07:46,042 --> 01:07:50,584 Indeed, 200-liter kegs of oil were buried there, 1008 01:07:50,751 --> 01:07:57,167 with ammunitions, weapons hidden as well. 1009 01:07:57,334 --> 01:08:02,417 When one of your men did something wrong, what did you do? 1010 01:08:02,584 --> 01:08:05,834 Every wrongdoing was punished by... 1011 01:08:08,584 --> 01:08:11,917 lashes with a whip. 1012 01:08:12,084 --> 01:08:17,167 I didn't do it myself. 1013 01:08:17,334 --> 01:08:24,001 First, I was not supposed to do it. I just ordered the punishment, that's it. 1014 01:08:24,167 --> 01:08:27,459 I couldn't make mistakes. 1015 01:08:27,626 --> 01:08:31,667 I couldn't punish someone who didn't do anything wrong. 1016 01:08:31,834 --> 01:08:36,542 What kind of thing did you punish with lashes? 1017 01:08:36,709 --> 01:08:39,501 Stealing. The simplest things. 1018 01:08:40,792 --> 01:08:44,001 All wrongdoings were punished. 1019 01:08:44,167 --> 01:08:48,876 When one of your men committed a crime 1020 01:08:49,042 --> 01:08:52,251 - on the population... - That never happened, 1021 01:08:52,417 --> 01:08:57,334 but the punishment could have been... 1022 01:08:59,376 --> 01:09:03,584 It could have been more... Bring that person... 1023 01:09:03,751 --> 01:09:06,959 If the crime was against civilians, 1024 01:09:07,126 --> 01:09:11,001 even if they're just wounded, 1025 01:09:11,167 --> 01:09:15,042 the punishment could have very strong, to the extreme. 1026 01:09:15,209 --> 01:09:19,167 - The death penalty? Without a trial. - Exactly. Exactly. 1027 01:09:19,334 --> 01:09:24,167 Those who were punished on my orders, never resented me. 1028 01:09:24,334 --> 01:09:28,376 I lived alone with them, and they were armed to the teeth. 1029 01:09:28,542 --> 01:09:32,876 At any moment of the day, they could have eliminated me. 1030 01:09:37,584 --> 01:09:42,876 Combat in the Aurès was very secluded, given the nature of the terrain. 1031 01:09:43,042 --> 01:09:47,292 Skirmishes happened within 100 and 150 yard minimum. 1032 01:09:47,459 --> 01:09:51,751 Except at night, of course, they would use hunting rifles, 1033 01:09:51,917 --> 01:09:55,751 which are, in my opinion, the most formidable weapon invented. 1034 01:09:55,917 --> 01:09:59,626 Was there a geographic distribution between you and them? 1035 01:10:00,751 --> 01:10:03,709 The FLN would circle around us using the ridges. 1036 01:10:03,876 --> 01:10:08,834 Everyone lived on their own side. We walked at night and slept in the day. 1037 01:10:09,001 --> 01:10:10,459 Slept and watched. 1038 01:10:10,626 --> 01:10:13,459 - You were doing the same thing. - Exactly. 1039 01:10:13,626 --> 01:10:20,584 I respect the ALN fighters, I think I never... 1040 01:10:20,751 --> 01:10:25,042 I've treated their wounded. 1041 01:10:26,167 --> 01:10:30,417 I've always treated them like men. But in villages, 1042 01:10:30,584 --> 01:10:33,751 I had to fight against political administrations, 1043 01:10:33,917 --> 01:10:37,376 which represented 1044 01:10:37,542 --> 01:10:42,251 what I'd call the dregs of every war. 1045 01:10:42,417 --> 01:10:48,709 To feed themselves, the FLN had to take 1046 01:10:48,876 --> 01:10:52,792 supplies from villages. 1047 01:10:54,167 --> 01:10:55,667 They ruled by terror. 1048 01:10:55,834 --> 01:10:58,959 You've witnessed 1049 01:10:59,126 --> 01:11:04,584 the method used by the FLN to control the population. 1050 01:11:04,751 --> 01:11:10,084 Indeed. I saw fatalities, wounded civilians, 1051 01:11:10,251 --> 01:11:13,126 even mutilated ones, 1052 01:11:13,292 --> 01:11:16,584 to pressure them. 1053 01:11:16,751 --> 01:11:22,167 Those were methods I didn't appreciate, 1054 01:11:22,334 --> 01:11:24,001 a human being can't appreciate. 1055 01:11:24,167 --> 01:11:29,459 You make a distinction between fighter and political figure. 1056 01:11:29,626 --> 01:11:33,459 Always. And I still do it. Fighters are people 1057 01:11:33,626 --> 01:11:39,001 who risk sacrificing 1058 01:11:39,167 --> 01:11:42,959 the most precious thing they have, meaning their lives, 1059 01:11:43,126 --> 01:11:46,626 while politicians never sacrifice anything. 1060 01:11:46,792 --> 01:11:51,751 - They were murderers and torturers? - Those I've met were. 1061 01:11:51,917 --> 01:11:56,376 Intelligence for a unit like ours consisted of... 1062 01:11:57,834 --> 01:12:03,292 collecting all intelligence, gathering it, 1063 01:12:03,459 --> 01:12:06,626 to get an exact idea 1064 01:12:06,792 --> 01:12:11,917 of where camps were, of troop movement 1065 01:12:12,084 --> 01:12:15,292 and size, who commanded them, 1066 01:12:15,459 --> 01:12:20,334 does he have family in a village, does he visit them, does he have a wife, 1067 01:12:20,501 --> 01:12:22,667 children, does he visit them at night 1068 01:12:22,834 --> 01:12:27,042 to set up his operations? 1069 01:12:27,209 --> 01:12:31,876 - You achieved perfect knowledge? - I think so. 1070 01:12:32,042 --> 01:12:37,501 I perfectly knew the wife of a FLN sub-lieutenant 1071 01:12:37,667 --> 01:12:40,167 who was in a village. 1072 01:12:40,334 --> 01:12:42,834 And on a side note, 1073 01:12:43,001 --> 01:12:48,084 about the French Army's so-called atrocities, we never touched his wife 1074 01:12:48,251 --> 01:12:52,209 nor his kids, although her husband was a sub-lieutenant. 1075 01:12:52,376 --> 01:12:56,001 You're always on the fence when we talk about torture, atrocities. 1076 01:12:56,167 --> 01:13:01,042 I mean, I heard so much about torture, I heard so much 1077 01:13:01,209 --> 01:13:04,501 about atrocities from people who obviously 1078 01:13:04,667 --> 01:13:09,042 didn't go through it, never faced the problem, 1079 01:13:09,209 --> 01:13:14,167 so I'm on the fence about it. 1080 01:13:14,334 --> 01:13:19,751 It's easy to talk about something when you were not involved. 1081 01:13:19,917 --> 01:13:24,626 It's very hard to talk about it. I'd like to also add 1082 01:13:24,792 --> 01:13:28,292 that I never saw any torture 1083 01:13:28,459 --> 01:13:34,167 by French Army officers for no valid reason. 1084 01:13:34,334 --> 01:13:41,292 Once I had a gentleman who had documents, 1085 01:13:41,459 --> 01:13:44,709 which had the name of... 1086 01:13:47,459 --> 01:13:53,167 of people who were in a company of draftees. 1087 01:13:54,292 --> 01:13:59,626 He also had the blueprints of a post I knew very well 1088 01:13:59,792 --> 01:14:03,084 because I had led a section there. 1089 01:14:07,167 --> 01:14:12,126 I reported to my superior, who told me 1090 01:14:13,417 --> 01:14:15,251 we had to know more. 1091 01:14:15,417 --> 01:14:18,834 Why did he have the map of a draftee's post? 1092 01:14:19,001 --> 01:14:22,792 Why was there three names? 1093 01:14:25,417 --> 01:14:31,376 One sub-officers' and two draftees'. 1094 01:14:31,542 --> 01:14:33,917 Then, uh... 1095 01:14:34,084 --> 01:14:40,334 Well, I'll say right away that we didn't torture him to death, I've never seen that. 1096 01:14:40,501 --> 01:14:46,834 - What did you do to him? - Well, a few slaps. 1097 01:14:47,001 --> 01:14:52,417 - Even water on his face. - Electricity? 1098 01:14:52,584 --> 01:14:56,334 Electricity, but 12-volt, not too bad. 1099 01:14:56,501 --> 01:14:59,709 But no electricity on his genitals, 1100 01:14:59,876 --> 01:15:03,709 as it was described in many books. 1101 01:15:05,417 --> 01:15:10,709 So we could know why. It turns out that when the man talked, 1102 01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:18,876 that company's station was surrounded with 150 draftees inside, 1103 01:15:19,042 --> 01:15:21,459 they were completely surrounded by the FLN, 1104 01:15:21,626 --> 01:15:25,792 and the three names on the papers 1105 01:15:25,959 --> 01:15:31,042 were names of traitors. 1106 01:15:31,209 --> 01:15:34,542 At the said time, the post was to be taken, 1107 01:15:35,542 --> 01:15:38,584 and all the draftees were to be killed. 1108 01:15:40,334 --> 01:15:42,876 I think it was worth... 1109 01:15:43,042 --> 01:15:46,959 Sometimes you wonder, you think it's awful, 1110 01:15:47,126 --> 01:15:50,251 this and that, but I think at that point, 1111 01:15:50,417 --> 01:15:52,417 the lives of 150 people depended on it. 1112 01:15:53,501 --> 01:15:56,959 Isn't it humiliating to humiliate a man? 1113 01:15:58,584 --> 01:16:01,084 Now it is, yes, 1114 01:16:01,251 --> 01:16:06,001 but going back to what I said earlier about politicians, 1115 01:16:06,167 --> 01:16:09,376 they are the ones who make the wars. 1116 01:16:09,542 --> 01:16:12,251 If you don't want atrocities, don't do wars. 1117 01:16:12,417 --> 01:16:14,292 Our activities were activities 1118 01:16:14,459 --> 01:16:18,792 where we brought something. We improved posts. 1119 01:16:18,959 --> 01:16:21,626 We put civilians to work, who were paid. 1120 01:16:21,792 --> 01:16:26,251 They really waited every morning, and we had to make a choice 1121 01:16:26,417 --> 01:16:30,167 because there were many of them, and I could only take 50, no more. 1122 01:16:30,334 --> 01:16:32,667 Maybe 200 guys came. 1123 01:16:32,834 --> 01:16:36,042 But the thing was that you built bastions, 1124 01:16:36,209 --> 01:16:39,667 you built blockhouses, an electric line with landmines. 1125 01:16:39,834 --> 01:16:43,667 Not always. The use that I mentioned earlier 1126 01:16:43,834 --> 01:16:47,334 is that we took people to build a road, that's peaceful. 1127 01:16:47,501 --> 01:16:52,251 It was something we also had with Pierre, as engineers, 1128 01:16:52,417 --> 01:16:57,334 we constructed bridges, helped during floods. 1129 01:16:57,501 --> 01:16:59,626 This is a post reinforcement, 1130 01:16:59,792 --> 01:17:04,626 and we had Muslim workers from the area who came to work. 1131 01:17:04,792 --> 01:17:09,042 And we paid these civilians weekly. 1132 01:17:09,209 --> 01:17:13,834 The funny thing was that, speaking Arabic and having contacts in the population, 1133 01:17:14,001 --> 01:17:19,292 I'd figure out who the FLN representative was in the camp, 1134 01:17:19,459 --> 01:17:23,209 And during tea in the tent 1135 01:17:23,376 --> 01:17:27,584 -he said that half the workdays you gave -Right. 1136 01:17:27,751 --> 01:17:29,584 Were taken by the ALN. 1137 01:17:29,751 --> 01:17:33,626 This is Sub-Lieutenant Achin in front of my post. 1138 01:17:33,792 --> 01:17:38,417 You can see the trail 1139 01:17:38,584 --> 01:17:43,042 we used to leave the post, to leave the area, 1140 01:17:43,209 --> 01:17:46,584 and you see the camp. 1141 01:17:46,751 --> 01:17:50,584 Our camp was called Sidi Djillali, it was a place... 1142 01:17:52,126 --> 01:17:53,542 It was a holy place. 1143 01:17:53,709 --> 01:17:57,876 It is extraordinary to think, when you know the Arab world a bit, 1144 01:17:58,042 --> 01:18:04,001 that we occupied a holy place, where pilgrimages were supposed to take place. 1145 01:18:04,167 --> 01:18:09,542 We banned them. For the Arab world, it was an extraordinary attack. 1146 01:18:09,709 --> 01:18:13,209 Well, it also was the location of a spring, it's often both. 1147 01:18:13,376 --> 01:18:18,417 And I would pour bleach in this spring, 1148 01:18:18,584 --> 01:18:22,667 because the best way to disinfect is one drop of bleach per liter. 1149 01:18:22,834 --> 01:18:24,501 I put in two of course. 1150 01:18:24,667 --> 01:18:28,667 And while I was there, I never had hepatitis 1151 01:18:28,834 --> 01:18:32,042 or dysentery. It was my great pride. 1152 01:18:32,209 --> 01:18:35,501 But nobody would drink water 1153 01:18:35,667 --> 01:18:40,417 because it was just disgusting. Everyone drank beer. 1154 01:18:41,917 --> 01:18:47,667 This is one of my little patients. We were by the camp. 1155 01:18:47,834 --> 01:18:52,751 They had a perimeter to walk around the camp during the day. 1156 01:18:52,917 --> 01:18:54,834 At night it was forbidden, of course. 1157 01:18:55,001 --> 01:19:00,626 In Algeria, we grouped people in certain zones, hundreds of thousands. 1158 01:19:00,792 --> 01:19:06,334 And these people were called the Outed Nehar, 1159 01:19:06,501 --> 01:19:11,834 a nomadic tribe we forced to settle down. We surrounded them with barb wire, 1160 01:19:12,001 --> 01:19:14,751 in a forbidden zone, 1161 01:19:14,917 --> 01:19:21,876 which meant that night and day, we could shoot anyone moving outside the camp. 1162 01:19:22,042 --> 01:19:25,376 They were there without any possibility to work, 1163 01:19:25,542 --> 01:19:27,667 engineering used them a bit, 1164 01:19:27,834 --> 01:19:30,709 because we built roads and blockhouses on the border. 1165 01:19:30,876 --> 01:19:34,876 Many died, because being gathered like that, 1166 01:19:35,042 --> 01:19:39,876 even with sanitary aid that I tried to improve, 1167 01:19:40,042 --> 01:19:45,709 it was insufficient. Child mortality was a disaster. 1168 01:19:45,876 --> 01:19:51,001 Especially childbirth for women and babies. 1169 01:19:51,167 --> 01:19:54,459 Both died at a huge rate, almost medieval in proportion. 1170 01:19:54,626 --> 01:20:01,209 They refused my requests for civilian evacuations. I only got military ones. 1171 01:20:01,376 --> 01:20:07,292 That's awful, because these people had to stay on site and died on site. 1172 01:20:07,459 --> 01:20:14,209 A child had toxicosis, typical dehydration for gastro-intestinal illness. 1173 01:20:14,376 --> 01:20:16,834 The child was over one year old, 1174 01:20:17,001 --> 01:20:23,292 he had acute dehydration. They refused my evacuation request, 1175 01:20:23,459 --> 01:20:26,876 but I did the evacuation in a military ambulance 1176 01:20:27,042 --> 01:20:32,126 on purpose, without protection, against my captain's orders, 1177 01:20:32,292 --> 01:20:37,126 who had promised to arrest me, but I left anyway. 1178 01:20:37,292 --> 01:20:42,501 I was also supported by one military nurse 1179 01:20:42,667 --> 01:20:47,001 who came with me, and accepted to be punished upon return. 1180 01:20:47,167 --> 01:20:52,209 And we did this evacuation, it was really long. 1181 01:20:52,376 --> 01:20:55,251 And the child died on arrival. 1182 01:21:03,001 --> 01:21:06,292 And I was born in Grenoble, not in Italy. 1183 01:21:06,459 --> 01:21:10,084 My parents naturalized me at birth. 1184 01:21:10,251 --> 01:21:13,959 They were both illiterate. 1185 01:21:14,126 --> 01:21:19,501 They arrived in Grenoble like all immigrants, even today. 1186 01:21:19,667 --> 01:21:23,584 They had to work, manage on their own. 1187 01:21:23,751 --> 01:21:29,917 Then they had me, and I was this immigrant couple's only child. 1188 01:21:30,084 --> 01:21:36,542 I was raised in poverty, experienced it. My childhood was marked by poverty. 1189 01:21:37,542 --> 01:21:39,126 What did you parents do? 1190 01:21:39,292 --> 01:21:44,292 Both my parents worked in a factory 1191 01:21:44,459 --> 01:21:50,542 in Grenoble. It no longer exists, but it manufactured bleach. 1192 01:21:50,709 --> 01:21:54,584 The bleach was called Neva, anyway. 1193 01:21:54,751 --> 01:22:00,709 They were both workers in that factory, 1194 01:22:02,084 --> 01:22:07,126 and I lost my father to an accident in the factory. 1195 01:22:07,292 --> 01:22:09,251 We never knew if he suddenly felt ill, 1196 01:22:09,417 --> 01:22:14,376 if he was asphyxiated by the gas, because there was gas as well. 1197 01:22:14,542 --> 01:22:20,292 In any case, as he stepped over to get to the other side, he fell in the bleach. 1198 01:22:20,459 --> 01:22:26,792 So he died from burns, drowning, everything from that bleach tank. 1199 01:22:26,959 --> 01:22:28,876 I lost my father when I was five. 1200 01:22:29,042 --> 01:22:35,084 For me, leaving for Algeria was unfair, 1201 01:22:35,251 --> 01:22:37,167 profoundly unfair... 1202 01:22:38,709 --> 01:22:41,126 Let's say that, 1203 01:22:41,292 --> 01:22:45,959 when you're 20, when you're a little bit of a bad boy, 1204 01:22:46,126 --> 01:22:52,209 because I was, I lived in a neighborhood that... 1205 01:22:52,376 --> 01:22:54,959 At the time it worked that way. 1206 01:22:55,126 --> 01:22:59,126 I wasn't a thief or a gangster, but I was a bad boy in the neighborhood. 1207 01:22:59,292 --> 01:23:02,542 - I was rowdy... A rebel, yes. - A rebel. 1208 01:23:02,709 --> 01:23:07,334 So I experience it like a tragedy. 1209 01:23:07,501 --> 01:23:11,376 But the real tragedy was for my mother, 1210 01:23:11,542 --> 01:23:14,834 because she ended up all alone. 1211 01:23:15,001 --> 01:23:17,626 And she experienced it as a tragedy. 1212 01:23:17,792 --> 01:23:21,667 Somebody who can't read or write, who doesn't follow anything, 1213 01:23:21,834 --> 01:23:25,209 who understood nothing about politics, I didn't either, 1214 01:23:25,376 --> 01:23:28,376 no support, no family, 1215 01:23:28,542 --> 01:23:31,626 nobody to go to one night 1216 01:23:31,792 --> 01:23:36,126 to ask if you can spend the night. 1217 01:23:36,292 --> 01:23:41,167 - It was a big tragedy. - You knew what you were doing there? 1218 01:23:41,334 --> 01:23:45,126 Yes, I did. 1219 01:23:45,292 --> 01:23:49,751 During basic training colleagues told me, 1220 01:23:49,917 --> 01:23:53,751 "If you become an officer, you'll make money," 1221 01:23:53,917 --> 01:23:57,292 and we needed money. We didn't have any. 1222 01:23:57,459 --> 01:24:02,167 We lived on credit everywhere, at the baker's, the grocer's, everywhere. 1223 01:24:02,334 --> 01:24:06,542 I was told that if I became an officer after basic training, 1224 01:24:06,709 --> 01:24:08,501 I could make some money. 1225 01:24:08,667 --> 01:24:10,876 - So I left... - Corporal. 1226 01:24:11,042 --> 01:24:15,251 As a corporal. But in any case, 1227 01:24:15,417 --> 01:24:19,459 a corporal was considered a sub-officer, 1228 01:24:19,626 --> 01:24:25,584 so I had a sort of subordinate officer status. 1229 01:24:25,751 --> 01:24:29,834 I had a sub-officer's salary, 1230 01:24:30,001 --> 01:24:35,876 the privileges of a sub-officer, meaning that I wasn't in a dorm, 1231 01:24:36,042 --> 01:24:39,876 I'd share a room with a mate. 1232 01:24:40,042 --> 01:24:43,792 So I had privileges, and also the privilege to make money. 1233 01:24:43,959 --> 01:24:49,334 The money I was able to earn as a sub-officer 1234 01:24:49,501 --> 01:24:54,167 and as a volunteer for various things, I sent back to France. 1235 01:24:54,959 --> 01:24:59,751 As a sub-officer, what was your relationship with your superiors? 1236 01:25:01,751 --> 01:25:05,292 - With officers? - Let's say that... 1237 01:25:07,501 --> 01:25:13,709 as an immigrant sub-officer, 1238 01:25:13,876 --> 01:25:19,876 it turns out that, at one point, I was the only one 1239 01:25:20,042 --> 01:25:23,209 to have an Italian sounding name. 1240 01:25:23,376 --> 01:25:29,126 That's how it was, maybe there were others after that. 1241 01:25:29,292 --> 01:25:32,959 And during a meal 1242 01:25:33,126 --> 01:25:39,084 in the officers' mess hall, where there were officers and the captain, 1243 01:25:39,251 --> 01:25:44,792 the lieutenant, one ribbon, two ribbons, people whose job it was. 1244 01:25:44,959 --> 01:25:47,626 And at the end of the table 1245 01:25:47,792 --> 01:25:51,626 sat a draftee, a sub-officer, but a corporal. 1246 01:25:52,959 --> 01:25:55,334 - They put you at the end of the table. - I was at the end. 1247 01:25:55,501 --> 01:25:56,876 It was funny at the table, 1248 01:25:57,042 --> 01:25:59,876 there was the captain and the corporal at the other end. 1249 01:26:00,042 --> 01:26:05,209 That was grand. But I didn't quite belong. 1250 01:26:05,376 --> 01:26:08,834 I'd say it was a little inappropriate. 1251 01:26:09,001 --> 01:26:12,209 - And... Oh, yeah. Well... Not me. - So they'd let you know. 1252 01:26:12,376 --> 01:26:14,751 I didn't personally, I didn't have the right... No. 1253 01:26:14,917 --> 01:26:16,459 I didn't do it. 1254 01:26:16,626 --> 01:26:20,167 But I was made to feel my presence wasn't justified... 1255 01:26:20,334 --> 01:26:24,334 But that was the rule. 1256 01:26:24,501 --> 01:26:29,042 I had a seat at the table. I'd eat like the captain across the table. 1257 01:26:29,209 --> 01:26:33,501 We had the same mess kit, and we had the same food. 1258 01:26:33,667 --> 01:26:36,209 But it bothered people. 1259 01:26:36,376 --> 01:26:39,626 Then one day, I was... 1260 01:26:39,792 --> 01:26:43,084 I was caught, and humiliated, saying... 1261 01:26:44,292 --> 01:26:47,876 I couldn't tell word for word. 1262 01:26:48,042 --> 01:26:51,417 There was a discussion, and it was the follow-up 1263 01:26:51,584 --> 01:26:54,626 that led to the comment, 1264 01:26:55,626 --> 01:26:59,542 "It's not normal that a Macar..." 1265 01:26:59,709 --> 01:27:03,751 Because Italian immigrants were called "Macars" at the time. 1266 01:27:03,917 --> 01:27:06,376 Today, Arabs are called "bougnoules." 1267 01:27:06,542 --> 01:27:09,417 Macar for macaroni. 1268 01:27:11,126 --> 01:27:13,001 We had a star on our heads. 1269 01:27:13,167 --> 01:27:16,751 So I was the Macar of the officers' mess hall. 1270 01:27:16,917 --> 01:27:19,876 And one day, I was called a Macar. 1271 01:27:20,042 --> 01:27:23,542 And I really didn't take it well. 1272 01:27:23,709 --> 01:27:27,084 - How did you react? - Well... 1273 01:27:28,376 --> 01:27:32,417 - I reacted very poorly. - Or well, maybe? 1274 01:27:33,584 --> 01:27:36,167 Well for me, poorly for them. 1275 01:27:39,001 --> 01:27:43,626 I had a very bad reaction, it was violent one. 1276 01:27:43,792 --> 01:27:48,584 There were consequences for me, because after that, I was... 1277 01:27:48,751 --> 01:27:53,626 - You have... - I was picked to do... 1278 01:27:55,001 --> 01:27:58,251 When someone had to go do something, 1279 01:27:58,417 --> 01:28:01,626 my group was chosen, I was. 1280 01:28:02,376 --> 01:28:07,417 Life was very hard, not because I was an army man 1281 01:28:07,584 --> 01:28:12,667 in Algeria, where we'd risk our lives, we were not there 1282 01:28:12,834 --> 01:28:14,584 to twiddle our thumbs... 1283 01:28:14,751 --> 01:28:17,501 but life was very hard, because I was constantly worried 1284 01:28:17,667 --> 01:28:19,917 about what happened in Grenoble, 1285 01:28:20,084 --> 01:28:23,501 and that's something that always ate away at me. 1286 01:28:23,667 --> 01:28:27,334 It ate away at me on one hand, 1287 01:28:27,501 --> 01:28:31,292 and stimulated me on the other. That's what drove me. 1288 01:28:32,376 --> 01:28:37,501 And maybe it was what kept me from... 1289 01:28:37,667 --> 01:28:40,876 messing around, I would say. 1290 01:28:41,042 --> 01:28:43,042 - You wanted to? - I did. 1291 01:28:43,209 --> 01:28:47,417 - What kind of messing around? - Everything you can imagine. 1292 01:28:47,584 --> 01:28:52,667 Everything you can imagine. And I didn't do it. 1293 01:28:52,834 --> 01:28:55,292 I held my duties. 1294 01:28:55,459 --> 01:28:58,126 I respected my... 1295 01:28:58,292 --> 01:29:02,084 I respected the service, 1296 01:29:02,251 --> 01:29:07,792 and it was important for me to come home, my head held high. 1297 01:29:08,792 --> 01:29:13,167 Always out of respect 1298 01:29:13,334 --> 01:29:16,584 for myself, and mostly for my mother 1299 01:29:16,751 --> 01:29:20,001 - who was waiting for me. - Would you hear from her? 1300 01:29:20,167 --> 01:29:25,042 Well... The problem, I took it very hard, 1301 01:29:25,209 --> 01:29:29,126 I took it very hard. The problem was that... 1302 01:29:30,126 --> 01:29:32,542 again, she could neither read nor write. 1303 01:29:32,709 --> 01:29:36,792 This neighbor, a lady, who lived with us, 1304 01:29:36,959 --> 01:29:40,709 read my letters. And, of course, when I wrote, 1305 01:29:40,876 --> 01:29:44,584 I would write to my neighbor first. 1306 01:29:44,751 --> 01:29:50,209 And between us, there was a bond. 1307 01:29:50,376 --> 01:29:54,626 The first paragraph was for her... 1308 01:29:54,792 --> 01:30:00,667 No, the first paragraph was for my mother, where I made up stories, 1309 01:30:00,834 --> 01:30:02,876 and the second was for her. 1310 01:30:03,042 --> 01:30:07,876 I told her the truth. I told her what I was really doing. 1311 01:30:08,042 --> 01:30:11,126 But for tranquility... 1312 01:30:11,292 --> 01:30:14,626 the tranquility at home, 1313 01:30:14,792 --> 01:30:18,584 I was managing a garage, 1314 01:30:18,751 --> 01:30:25,751 we'd fix trucks. And at our location, there were flowers everywhere. 1315 01:30:25,917 --> 01:30:30,001 There was a pond, there was a place with a reservoir, 1316 01:30:30,167 --> 01:30:35,959 a nice pond with flowers and palm trees, grass. It was a gorgeous sight. 1317 01:30:36,126 --> 01:30:40,459 I insisted on taking pictures. I would take pictures by the water, 1318 01:30:40,626 --> 01:30:46,792 near flowers, big magnolias, I didn't know what it was. 1319 01:30:46,959 --> 01:30:51,667 But I had beautiful pictures. Looking at them, you couldn't say, 1320 01:30:51,834 --> 01:30:55,167 "My son is in Algeria, he's fighting." It was impossible. 1321 01:30:55,334 --> 01:31:01,167 So I would regularly take pictures, at the same place in a different outfit. 1322 01:31:36,501 --> 01:31:39,001 Your mother never suspected anything? 1323 01:31:46,792 --> 01:31:49,001 I don't know, actually. 1324 01:31:50,126 --> 01:31:52,917 I don't know, I've never known. 1325 01:31:54,292 --> 01:31:58,501 I think she made a lot of effort to adhere to... 1326 01:31:58,667 --> 01:32:02,292 to what I wanted her to believe. 1327 01:32:02,459 --> 01:32:06,917 Because I received mail, my neighbor would write it, 1328 01:32:07,084 --> 01:32:12,501 and when I received it, I got to say or think 1329 01:32:12,667 --> 01:32:14,792 that the letters weren't truthful. 1330 01:32:16,001 --> 01:32:21,417 I was allowed to think that. And one day, the consequences 1331 01:32:23,084 --> 01:32:26,042 made me say her letters weren't truthful. 1332 01:32:27,251 --> 01:32:32,459 When I returned, when I was released and got back home, 1333 01:32:32,626 --> 01:32:36,459 well, when I saw my mother again, 1334 01:32:36,626 --> 01:32:40,376 one day I saw her again, and I didn't see her as I left her. 1335 01:32:41,584 --> 01:32:44,834 That led me to think that the letters I received... 1336 01:32:45,001 --> 01:32:49,751 I had received letters that appeased me, 1337 01:32:49,917 --> 01:32:54,459 - but it wasn't real. She did. - The neighbor played the same game. 1338 01:32:54,626 --> 01:32:56,501 You remember when you saw your mother? 1339 01:32:56,667 --> 01:32:58,501 Yes, absolutely. 1340 01:32:59,792 --> 01:33:01,084 Yes. 1341 01:33:02,834 --> 01:33:06,626 Good question... Oh, yes. 1342 01:33:09,959 --> 01:33:11,667 Let's go back to that later. 1343 01:33:15,501 --> 01:33:20,876 Where did your draftees come from? 1344 01:33:21,042 --> 01:33:22,751 From everywhere. 1345 01:33:22,917 --> 01:33:25,876 - Socially? - There were Bretons. 1346 01:33:26,042 --> 01:33:29,876 There were Bretons. I have nothing against them, but there they were. 1347 01:33:30,042 --> 01:33:33,792 And there were people from the Cantal. 1348 01:33:33,959 --> 01:33:39,209 A lot of... It's funny because there were many people from the South. 1349 01:33:40,709 --> 01:33:44,751 Marseilles, Aix-en-Provence, 1350 01:33:44,917 --> 01:33:47,751 Avignon, many people from the South. 1351 01:33:47,917 --> 01:33:49,876 A motley crew. 1352 01:33:50,042 --> 01:33:55,251 Bretons and people from Marseilles don't speak the same way. 1353 01:33:55,417 --> 01:33:57,334 You could say they were of a different cloth. 1354 01:33:57,501 --> 01:34:01,917 - Were social differences prominent? - Yes, very. 1355 01:34:02,084 --> 01:34:03,667 Very much. 1356 01:34:06,167 --> 01:34:10,042 Yes. Social backgrounds, they were many people from... 1357 01:34:10,209 --> 01:34:14,501 I'd say people from... How can I say this? 1358 01:34:16,334 --> 01:34:17,751 It was poor. 1359 01:34:19,542 --> 01:34:22,126 You can't say... There were no educated people. 1360 01:34:22,292 --> 01:34:25,376 That's it, there were no educated people. 1361 01:34:26,667 --> 01:34:31,959 They were people from the street, the neighborhood, the country, 1362 01:34:32,126 --> 01:34:37,876 rural, if you will, but it was very short. 1363 01:34:39,042 --> 01:34:43,126 So, I'd say people were... 1364 01:34:44,334 --> 01:34:49,251 were conditioned to obey. 1365 01:34:50,542 --> 01:34:56,042 When they rebelled they did it because they couldn't anymore. 1366 01:34:56,209 --> 01:35:00,876 But it wasn't... The boys weren't... 1367 01:35:01,042 --> 01:35:05,584 They didn't have the intellectual means 1368 01:35:05,751 --> 01:35:08,834 to go against the orders they were given. 1369 01:35:10,417 --> 01:35:14,501 Do you know today how your mother coped with your absence? 1370 01:35:14,667 --> 01:35:16,751 Let me tell you, she died of it. 1371 01:35:28,042 --> 01:35:29,709 This is Sergeant Jean Aperté. 1372 01:35:29,876 --> 01:35:35,376 I'm taking this opportunity to say hello to my family, to my brothers and sisters. 1373 01:35:35,542 --> 01:35:38,501 Morale is good. Health is good. 1374 01:35:38,667 --> 01:35:42,376 Private First Class, Joseph Luciani. I'll take this occasion 1375 01:35:42,542 --> 01:35:45,834 to deliver good news to my parents, 1376 01:35:46,001 --> 01:35:48,126 and my impending return. 1377 01:35:50,417 --> 01:35:54,417 Private First Class Trigot. Sending love to my parents. 1378 01:35:54,584 --> 01:35:56,667 Morale is good, health... 1379 01:35:56,834 --> 01:35:59,959 Infantryman Robert Bazy taking this opportunity 1380 01:36:00,126 --> 01:36:04,959 to send love to my fiancée and to my family, and health. 1381 01:36:05,126 --> 01:36:08,626 - Robert. - This is Albert Siocat, 1382 01:36:08,792 --> 01:36:13,417 dear parents, I'm very well. I hope it's the same for you, 1383 01:36:13,584 --> 01:36:16,751 that your trip back from your vacation went well. 1384 01:36:16,917 --> 01:36:20,167 Much love to all. 1385 01:36:20,334 --> 01:36:25,042 - You connected to France via mail? - Yes, it was the mail. 1386 01:36:25,209 --> 01:36:29,417 I would write to my wife almost every day. 1387 01:36:29,584 --> 01:36:33,167 Because I got married when I went to the army. 1388 01:36:33,334 --> 01:36:36,292 From France, we were informed via mail. 1389 01:36:37,417 --> 01:36:40,292 - It would get through? - It did. It was sacred. 1390 01:36:40,459 --> 01:36:42,209 Better the mail than food. 1391 01:36:42,376 --> 01:36:47,001 I didn't even write to my parents for 18 months. 1392 01:36:47,167 --> 01:36:49,751 Yes, but you're a loner. 1393 01:36:49,917 --> 01:36:54,084 To know if I was alive or dead, 1394 01:36:54,251 --> 01:36:57,709 they wrote to the battalion command post. 1395 01:36:57,876 --> 01:37:00,792 The captain forced me to write. 1396 01:37:00,959 --> 01:37:03,417 It was hard to write when we were 1397 01:37:03,584 --> 01:37:10,001 in the mountains, all over the place. First off, we were not equipped. 1398 01:37:10,167 --> 01:37:15,167 When we came back down to camp, we'd write. 1399 01:37:15,334 --> 01:37:19,792 - You wrote about everything? - Of course. 1400 01:37:20,959 --> 01:37:23,126 I don't think there was any censorship. 1401 01:37:23,292 --> 01:37:28,626 There was nothing in the letters I got, like the ones I sent. 1402 01:37:28,792 --> 01:37:31,792 When I wrote to my parents or to my wife, 1403 01:37:31,959 --> 01:37:35,459 - I never wrote what happened. - Why? 1404 01:37:35,626 --> 01:37:37,709 To not worry them. 1405 01:37:38,917 --> 01:37:41,001 What did you write then? 1406 01:37:42,792 --> 01:37:45,709 The minimum of things that could hurt. 1407 01:37:45,876 --> 01:37:50,042 I didn't want to write I was okay, I wasn't. 1408 01:37:51,042 --> 01:37:56,751 I didn't want to write about what I experienced either, because I thought 1409 01:37:57,959 --> 01:38:00,501 it would have 1410 01:38:00,667 --> 01:38:03,459 worried and upset them, what I didn't realize 1411 01:38:03,626 --> 01:38:07,542 was that not writing worried them much more. 1412 01:38:07,709 --> 01:38:10,542 We received mail about every day. 1413 01:38:10,709 --> 01:38:15,459 Our Piper would fly over us and throw it. 1414 01:38:15,626 --> 01:38:18,126 But ours was taken once a month. 1415 01:38:18,292 --> 01:38:21,042 Every time there was a convoy to Michelet 1416 01:38:21,209 --> 01:38:23,917 or a chopper coming for a wounded soldier. 1417 01:38:24,084 --> 01:38:26,542 - Your letters were sent every day? - Every day. 1418 01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:28,917 Not sent, but I wrote every day. 1419 01:38:29,084 --> 01:38:31,042 They wouldn't leave every day. 1420 01:38:31,209 --> 01:38:36,251 I wrote every day and she'd receive them in a package. 1421 01:38:36,417 --> 01:38:40,126 "I am on the watchtower. It is four thirty in the morning. 1422 01:38:40,292 --> 01:38:44,709 And I just drew you a caricature of the landscape we are overlooking. 1423 01:38:44,876 --> 01:38:47,084 Just a part of it. 1424 01:38:47,251 --> 01:38:49,626 On the other side, there are only mountains. 1425 01:38:49,792 --> 01:38:51,334 My dear, 1426 01:38:51,501 --> 01:38:56,001 if you knew how many hours I spend looking at this section of the land, 1427 01:38:56,167 --> 01:38:57,792 I am disgusted. 1428 01:38:57,959 --> 01:39:02,417 I think of you, I write, I draw, I dream, 1429 01:39:02,584 --> 01:39:05,376 and I look to the setting sun. 1430 01:39:05,542 --> 01:39:09,376 Here, I'll mark where it disappears for you. 1431 01:39:09,542 --> 01:39:12,792 My love, I'm embracing you in thought. 1432 01:39:12,959 --> 01:39:17,001 Never have I spent such long hours waiting. 1433 01:39:17,167 --> 01:39:20,501 A year goes by so quickly when we're together. 1434 01:39:21,501 --> 01:39:24,751 /I is five 0 'clock, and the sun is rising. ” 1435 01:39:24,917 --> 01:39:31,501 That's on the side of the section between Port-Cé and Sebanna. 1436 01:39:31,667 --> 01:39:36,459 With my engineers, we were reinforcing the electrified fence. 1437 01:39:36,626 --> 01:39:41,876 And we kept laying mines. 1438 01:39:42,042 --> 01:39:47,834 Between the electric part there were landmines, and then a trail. 1439 01:39:48,001 --> 01:39:51,501 We used to avoid the trapped and electrified parts. 1440 01:39:51,667 --> 01:39:56,501 And that allowed us to repair and to bring in heavy gear. 1441 01:39:56,667 --> 01:40:00,501 Along the Algeria-Tunisia border, same thing on the Moroccan side, 1442 01:40:00,667 --> 01:40:05,792 there was a fence, a barb wire network, in which there was 1443 01:40:05,959 --> 01:40:08,626 an electrified part, 5,000 volts. 1444 01:40:08,792 --> 01:40:12,834 We were from the national power company, or the private sector like me. 1445 01:40:13,001 --> 01:40:16,917 We had one thing in common, we were all electricians. 1446 01:40:17,084 --> 01:40:20,334 We were military on the side. 1447 01:40:20,501 --> 01:40:22,334 Were there many intrusion attempts? 1448 01:40:22,501 --> 01:40:27,792 In the Kouif zone, we practically had one attempt a day. 1449 01:40:27,959 --> 01:40:32,167 - Every day. Nights? - Practically. 1450 01:40:32,334 --> 01:40:34,209 Every night, actually. 1451 01:40:34,376 --> 01:40:39,292 With, of course, an uptick on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, 1452 01:40:39,459 --> 01:40:44,626 which in the mind of the Fell thought was the period when, normally, 1453 01:40:44,792 --> 01:40:46,542 people were less active. 1454 01:40:46,709 --> 01:40:49,584 ALN fighters manage to come either through... 1455 01:40:49,751 --> 01:40:52,584 they would breach 1456 01:40:52,751 --> 01:40:56,876 the network with Bangalore torpedoes, big pipes filled with explosives. 1457 01:40:57,042 --> 01:40:59,834 They'd slide them in the fence, 1458 01:41:00,001 --> 01:41:02,876 they would blow it up, and they had a yard-wide access. 1459 01:41:03,042 --> 01:41:07,584 We had to intervene. If we didn't reconnect soon, 1460 01:41:07,751 --> 01:41:11,501 we could have a streak of intrusions, which happened. 1461 01:41:11,667 --> 01:41:13,792 They started by cutting at the end, 1462 01:41:13,959 --> 01:41:17,042 and they got closer, and it became harder to detect. 1463 01:41:17,209 --> 01:41:21,917 You had to go with a toolbox, a bag, in the spotlight, 1464 01:41:22,084 --> 01:41:26,084 get into the network, and repair. It was very unpleasant. 1465 01:41:26,251 --> 01:41:29,334 - Why? - We knew that the guys who cut it 1466 01:41:29,501 --> 01:41:31,667 - were across the fence. - They shot at you? 1467 01:41:31,834 --> 01:41:33,542 Well, yeah. It happened. 1468 01:41:33,709 --> 01:41:39,126 That's a night skirmish. We had to repair the breach. 1469 01:41:39,292 --> 01:41:44,542 The marines helped us, and we worked under the firefly lights. 1470 01:41:44,709 --> 01:41:50,209 For me, our adversaries were invisible. 1471 01:41:50,376 --> 01:41:53,209 They were increasingly ingenuous. 1472 01:41:53,376 --> 01:41:58,459 They'd find more ways to go through. And so were we. 1473 01:41:58,626 --> 01:42:01,292 We'd trap our networks, we'd make dead ends. 1474 01:42:01,459 --> 01:42:05,542 When the guys came with their Bangalores, 1475 01:42:05,709 --> 01:42:09,084 they would get... It didn't create huge damage, 1476 01:42:09,251 --> 01:42:11,792 but the other side got a nice shock. 1477 01:42:11,959 --> 01:42:15,292 - What pushed you to risk your life? - I don't know. 1478 01:42:15,459 --> 01:42:17,667 I think it... 1479 01:42:17,834 --> 01:42:20,126 - Was it your fence? - Probably. 1480 01:42:20,292 --> 01:42:23,542 Don't you think today that it was 1481 01:42:23,709 --> 01:42:26,501 ridiculous to risk your life for a 100-yard fence? 1482 01:42:28,167 --> 01:42:32,667 Do I find it ridiculous today to risk my life for a 100-yard fence? 1483 01:42:35,334 --> 01:42:37,751 I don't. No. 1484 01:42:37,917 --> 01:42:41,834 The day I saw death from up close 1485 01:42:42,001 --> 01:42:44,542 on the network, 1486 01:42:44,709 --> 01:42:46,542 it was friendly fire. 1487 01:42:46,709 --> 01:42:49,459 Instead of the people on the other side, 1488 01:42:49,626 --> 01:42:53,042 it was a guy in the back, with his Jeep and a machine gun. 1489 01:42:53,209 --> 01:42:56,042 And when he saw our Jeep coming, 1490 01:42:56,209 --> 01:42:59,792 they were always in the back and we were close to the network 1491 01:42:59,959 --> 01:43:03,084 to try and see where the cut was. He panicked and fired. 1492 01:43:03,251 --> 01:43:07,126 - On you. - On us. The round went through the Jeep, 1493 01:43:07,292 --> 01:43:10,626 wounding my deputy who was in front. 1494 01:43:10,792 --> 01:43:15,876 That's when I was closest to death. 1495 01:43:16,042 --> 01:43:17,959 - With French bullets? - Yes. 1496 01:43:18,126 --> 01:43:20,709 - Did this type of accident happened often? - Very. 1497 01:43:20,876 --> 01:43:25,251 Very often, simply because we were electricity professionals, 1498 01:43:25,417 --> 01:43:30,042 and in hindsight, we were taking too many risks. 1499 01:43:30,209 --> 01:43:34,334 The boys on the other side were spread along the network, 1500 01:43:34,501 --> 01:43:37,959 some had been serving for a couple of months. 1501 01:43:38,126 --> 01:43:41,626 They were alone in their Jeep with their gun, and they were scared. 1502 01:43:41,792 --> 01:43:42,876 Accidents occurred. 1503 01:43:43,042 --> 01:43:47,626 They happened because of what we called inkpot mines. 1504 01:43:47,792 --> 01:43:49,917 We had a problem, 1505 01:43:51,376 --> 01:43:54,501 I didn't have it too much but some mates had a big one, 1506 01:43:54,667 --> 01:43:58,792 their fuses were bright, 1507 01:43:59,959 --> 01:44:05,792 and crows would come and take the mines out of curiosity 1508 01:44:05,959 --> 01:44:11,751 thinking it was food, and put them down, but not where they found it. 1509 01:44:11,917 --> 01:44:14,834 Sometimes we had nasty surprises. 1510 01:44:15,001 --> 01:44:18,459 We also had violent thunderstorms. 1511 01:44:18,626 --> 01:44:23,834 Water would flood the entire field, and we'd find mines everywhere. 1512 01:44:24,001 --> 01:44:27,667 That's why we couldn't dispose of the mines. 1513 01:44:27,834 --> 01:44:33,417 The wadis went up taking the mines, and for a couple of weeks, 1514 01:44:33,584 --> 01:44:37,376 Jeeps would often... We stayed in the Jeep if we could. 1515 01:44:37,542 --> 01:44:43,334 Jeeps would blow up on landmines, wheels blowing up, Jeeps overturning. 1516 01:44:43,501 --> 01:44:46,709 When the wind blew we had tufts of grass 1517 01:44:46,876 --> 01:44:51,667 flying around and that ended up in the network. 1518 01:44:51,834 --> 01:44:54,834 We weren't lucky, because it would get stuck in wires. 1519 01:44:55,001 --> 01:44:58,001 When the tufts of grass got stuck, 1520 01:44:58,167 --> 01:45:02,042 it pulled on the thing, the mine came up and exploded. 1521 01:45:02,209 --> 01:45:05,376 - It's true. - Were there accidents? 1522 01:45:05,542 --> 01:45:08,584 There were some, yeah. 1523 01:45:08,751 --> 01:45:10,251 There were accidents. 1524 01:45:10,417 --> 01:45:12,292 - Serious ones? - Unfortunately. 1525 01:45:12,459 --> 01:45:18,292 Yes, there were accidents. Privates lost their lives. 1526 01:45:18,459 --> 01:45:22,542 - How do you feel about it? - Something profoundly unfair. 1527 01:45:24,292 --> 01:45:27,209 Something profoundly unfair. Of course. 1528 01:45:27,376 --> 01:45:31,584 Saying that we lost someone, because we were given an order 1529 01:45:31,751 --> 01:45:37,834 that was misplaced, inappropriate. We executed an order 1530 01:45:38,001 --> 01:45:43,459 when we should have, and we had the right to, disobey it. 1531 01:45:43,626 --> 01:45:49,209 - Were there protests back at camp? - Yes, there were. 1532 01:45:50,584 --> 01:45:53,334 - There were protests. - How did it translate? 1533 01:45:56,376 --> 01:45:57,792 Is it important? 1534 01:46:00,251 --> 01:46:03,459 It'd say people came back with murder on their mind. 1535 01:46:06,584 --> 01:46:10,792 Murder, of course, for the one who gave the order. 1536 01:46:26,751 --> 01:46:30,334 Killed in action. 1537 01:46:30,501 --> 01:46:33,459 - Bertin, Jacques-Francois. - Killed in action. 1538 01:46:33,626 --> 01:46:35,959 - Boudurier, Arthur. - Killed in action. 1539 01:46:40,292 --> 01:46:43,459 Are you proud you were a Red Beret? 1540 01:46:43,626 --> 01:46:47,251 I was one, and I still am one. 1541 01:46:48,751 --> 01:46:54,167 And I'll always be. I took part to the protest in Grenoble. 1542 01:46:54,334 --> 01:46:58,376 I was in the group at the construction site, and we threw what we found. 1543 01:46:58,542 --> 01:47:02,251 - You didn't mind being in a unit... - On the contrary. 1544 01:47:02,417 --> 01:47:05,209 If I had to do it again, I'd ask for the same unit. 1545 01:47:05,376 --> 01:47:09,501 In terms of education, I was the weakest. I had a secondary education. 1546 01:47:09,667 --> 01:47:13,042 Two or three were volunteers, the rest were deferments, 1547 01:47:13,209 --> 01:47:17,584 in two regiments made up of .90 % of draftees. 1548 01:47:17,751 --> 01:47:22,834 Some were straight from business school, or were already law clerks. 1549 01:47:23,001 --> 01:47:27,709 We had two seminarians. To give you an idea of the mood, 1550 01:47:27,876 --> 01:47:30,751 far from the braggarts, 1551 01:47:30,917 --> 01:47:35,251 the big mouths like those of the paratroopers. 1552 01:47:35,417 --> 01:47:38,959 We made a section book. 1553 01:47:39,126 --> 01:47:43,542 It's a little hard to recognize oneself, but you can see yourself in the pictures. 1554 01:47:43,709 --> 01:47:46,709 The entire section, plus ranking officers. 1555 01:47:46,876 --> 01:47:48,917 And we made it so 1556 01:47:49,084 --> 01:47:53,417 - each of us had the title of a movie. - What was yours? 1557 01:47:53,584 --> 01:47:57,001 - Bitter Rice. - What about you? 1558 01:47:57,167 --> 01:48:02,292 - Tell me, I don't have my glasses. - The Silent World. 1559 01:48:02,459 --> 01:48:06,417 '94 concentrate from Spain and Grenoble, his accent matched his mustache, ” 1560 01:48:06,584 --> 01:48:09,126 - Gone. "...hides his reined-in passion." - Yeah. 1561 01:48:09,292 --> 01:48:12,001 "He expresses it in his letters nestled in his upper bed. 1562 01:48:12,167 --> 01:48:15,334 And let us glimpse at it 'When you dance, dance, dance...' 1563 01:48:15,501 --> 01:48:19,167 - It was the famous... - The time's chorus. 1564 01:48:19,334 --> 01:48:23,126 - Gilbert Bécaud's chorus. At that time. - Yeah. 1565 01:48:23,292 --> 01:48:26,959 - Did you listen to...? - Music, yes. 1566 01:48:27,126 --> 01:48:29,542 I used to sing a bit. 1567 01:48:29,709 --> 01:48:34,001 The atmosphere among paratroopers was great during basic training. 1568 01:48:35,084 --> 01:48:39,126 We had a sub-lieutenant, Michel Boëns, 1569 01:48:39,292 --> 01:48:41,126 a young reservist, 1570 01:48:41,292 --> 01:48:45,584 and this guy had created an extraordinary team. 1571 01:48:45,751 --> 01:48:47,667 I can read something if you don't mind. 1572 01:48:47,834 --> 01:48:50,376 For example, something he wrote: 1573 01:48:50,542 --> 01:48:52,834 "One last time, I saw you climb the ladder, 1574 01:48:53,001 --> 01:48:58,251 clumsy, leaning left, to counteract the propeller's wind. 1575 01:48:58,417 --> 01:49:01,876 One last time, I saw you look for your place in the plane, 1576 01:49:02,042 --> 01:49:06,001 turn around and sit gently facing the tail of our plane. 1577 01:49:06,167 --> 01:49:11,501 This time you hooked calmly, analyzing, measuring, understanding your moves 1578 01:49:11,667 --> 01:49:13,667 with more gravity than other days. 1579 01:49:13,834 --> 01:49:20,084 One last time, the green light came on. I wanted to jump last to close the door 1580 01:49:20,251 --> 01:49:25,876 that I had opened a few months when you arrived. 1581 01:49:26,042 --> 01:49:30,001 Under our cupolas, to the land of men, which is sometimes so good to leave." 1582 01:49:30,167 --> 01:49:35,792 Montauban, November 1956 - Pau, February 11th, 1957, 1583 01:49:35,959 --> 01:49:40,834 sub-lieutenant Michel Boëns, he was about 23. I think. 1584 01:49:41,001 --> 01:49:46,459 He fell leading his section May 10th, 1957, IXth RCP. 1585 01:49:46,626 --> 01:49:51,126 We had amazing leaders. They were great with us. 1586 01:49:51,292 --> 01:49:58,042 We were free, we didn't have to salute all the time. 1587 01:49:58,209 --> 01:50:04,667 We could tell them what we needed to tell them. 1588 01:50:04,834 --> 01:50:08,042 They were people who had known the Second World War, 1589 01:50:08,209 --> 01:50:14,209 who had been in Indochina, had been wounded, several times, 1590 01:50:15,334 --> 01:50:21,001 who were very decorated, and strongly believed in French Algeria. 1591 01:50:21,167 --> 01:50:23,376 We were the first on missions. 1592 01:50:23,542 --> 01:50:28,667 Thanks to helicopters, they flew us far and we walked back. Kept us in shape. 1593 01:50:28,834 --> 01:50:32,917 We weren't very homesick in the great Kabylia. 1594 01:50:33,084 --> 01:50:36,251 Some mountains were as high as here. In Jura there's snow. 1595 01:50:36,417 --> 01:50:39,709 Do you remember the first time under fire? 1596 01:50:39,876 --> 01:50:46,834 Yes. I came in the next day, at 11 a.m., there was a skirmish 1597 01:50:47,001 --> 01:50:50,251 but quite far away. I had the radio with the antenna, 1598 01:50:50,417 --> 01:50:54,459 I had to shadow the section leader, to stay close, 1599 01:50:54,626 --> 01:51:00,834 and I was warned that the first to be shot were the leader and the radio operator. 1600 01:51:01,001 --> 01:51:04,376 So the first thing I did was to sit down. 1601 01:51:05,376 --> 01:51:08,209 The leader didn't want me to, so he said, "Stand up. 1602 01:51:08,376 --> 01:51:12,792 You have to stay with me." I said, "Yeah, but I'm tired." 1603 01:51:12,959 --> 01:51:17,959 I didn't work so it was a moment of fear, but then, 1604 01:51:18,126 --> 01:51:24,126 in the mood, you don't even think about it. 1605 01:51:24,292 --> 01:51:28,751 I didn't know much. I heard bullets, I thought they were firing on us, 1606 01:51:28,917 --> 01:51:32,334 and I hid, more or less. I tried to hide behind a tree. 1607 01:51:32,501 --> 01:51:36,376 He said, "It's far. There're no danger. There's no bang, we're okay." 1608 01:51:36,542 --> 01:51:40,376 We were in a wadi, in the Great Kabylia, 1609 01:51:40,542 --> 01:51:45,917 we were doing a grid search in a wadi, and it was... 1610 01:51:46,084 --> 01:51:49,709 the most striking. I raised my head above a rock and I saw 1611 01:51:49,876 --> 01:51:53,084 two black holes right in front of me, a rifle's barrel and... 1612 01:51:53,251 --> 01:51:56,667 - How far? - Three feet from my head. 1613 01:51:56,834 --> 01:52:00,917 I got lucky, maybe there was a god for paratroopers. I shot first. 1614 01:52:01,084 --> 01:52:02,834 That's why I'm here with you today. 1615 01:52:03,001 --> 01:52:05,751 I spent the night by the side of a wounded individual. 1616 01:52:05,917 --> 01:52:08,126 That was the first skirmish. 1617 01:52:08,292 --> 01:52:11,626 There were nine dead. 1618 01:52:11,792 --> 01:52:15,584 Including an officer, a friend. 1619 01:52:15,751 --> 01:52:19,251 And Sub-Lieutenant De Guitard. 1620 01:52:19,417 --> 01:52:26,292 Next to me, a young sergeant who was hit in the chest. We couldn't evacuate him. 1621 01:52:26,459 --> 01:52:30,667 I talked with him a bit. I said, "Don't worry, 1622 01:52:30,834 --> 01:52:34,126 I think the helicopters will come." Unfortunately, 1623 01:52:34,292 --> 01:52:36,709 they could only land on the ridges opposite. 1624 01:52:36,876 --> 01:52:38,667 They evacuated wounded of the 2nd REP. 1625 01:52:38,834 --> 01:52:42,334 There was a lot of fighting on the ridges opposite. 1626 01:52:42,501 --> 01:52:45,376 And being completely exhausted, 1627 01:52:45,542 --> 01:52:50,834 I fell asleep, and when I woke up at five a.m., he was dead. 1628 01:52:51,001 --> 01:52:57,876 People always forget that the FLN had scopes like us. 1629 01:52:58,042 --> 01:53:01,084 They had state-of-the-art weapons. 1630 01:53:01,251 --> 01:53:05,167 Be they .303 British, Italian Statis, 1631 01:53:05,334 --> 01:53:08,209 which did tremendous damage. 1632 01:53:08,376 --> 01:53:14,667 They didn't have many of them, but we could hear their weird noises. 1633 01:53:14,834 --> 01:53:20,001 It's true, the bullets I saw 1634 01:53:20,167 --> 01:53:25,126 could take out a limb. If it hit an arm or something else, it made a huge hole. 1635 01:53:25,292 --> 01:53:29,376 The guy couldn't survive. We were wary of them. 1636 01:53:29,542 --> 01:53:32,084 It felt like... 1637 01:53:32,251 --> 01:53:36,501 As soon as we heard that noise, our ears would flap shut. 1638 01:54:21,626 --> 01:54:26,751 After a mission, 1639 01:54:26,917 --> 01:54:31,084 our section was stuck for eleven days 1640 01:54:31,251 --> 01:54:36,917 without water to wash or shave, barely enough to drink. 1641 01:54:37,084 --> 01:54:39,709 When we came down to base, they were miserable. 1642 01:54:40,876 --> 01:54:44,417 There no socks in boots. 1643 01:54:44,584 --> 01:54:48,959 They called us the scented soldiers, but we were far from it. 1644 01:54:50,417 --> 01:54:52,751 Uh... '58, 1645 01:54:54,084 --> 01:55:00,042 in the regiment, about 60 killed and 50 wounded. 1646 01:55:01,376 --> 01:55:07,126 In total, yes. Even more than 50... 1647 01:55:07,292 --> 01:55:12,042 killed. Because in '58 there was the Souk Ahras battle, 1648 01:55:13,167 --> 01:55:19,251 where the Fells cut through the perimeter in several places, they got in, 1649 01:55:19,417 --> 01:55:21,584 about 800 guys. 1650 01:55:21,751 --> 01:55:24,334 They attacked from everywhere. 1651 01:55:24,501 --> 01:55:27,542 Back-up arrived a little later, 1652 01:55:27,709 --> 01:55:29,917 and the 9th fell into it. 1653 01:55:30,084 --> 01:55:36,251 A company was flown in the middle of... 1654 01:55:37,917 --> 01:55:40,834 of two katibas. There were 300 guys. 1655 01:55:41,834 --> 01:55:47,709 And when they landed they fired at them, 1656 01:55:47,876 --> 01:55:51,917 but no one was wounded. When they landed, they saw 1657 01:55:52,084 --> 01:55:55,792 Fells who surrendered, young ones, their hands up. 1658 01:55:55,959 --> 01:55:59,667 Unluckily for them, it was a tactic, they used a whistle, 1659 01:56:00,751 --> 01:56:07,417 and when the whistle blew, they all got down, six to ten machine guns fired. 1660 01:56:07,584 --> 01:56:13,667 Except for the FM who had lied down, 1661 01:56:13,834 --> 01:56:16,751 most were killed by the first shots. 1662 01:56:16,917 --> 01:56:20,334 And the battle lasted four or five days. 1663 01:56:21,459 --> 01:56:25,042 In total... 1664 01:56:25,209 --> 01:56:29,667 according to reports, there was about 550 1665 01:56:29,834 --> 01:56:35,292 Fells, or OLs, as we called them. Outlaws, or rebels, 1666 01:56:35,459 --> 01:56:37,751 who were shot and made prisoners. 1667 01:56:38,917 --> 01:56:44,376 But among us, many killed and many wounded. 1668 01:56:44,542 --> 01:56:49,667 In 1958, out of 365 days, 1669 01:56:49,834 --> 01:56:53,959 that regiment was in the field 254 days, 1670 01:56:54,126 --> 01:56:58,084 lost 38 lives, including four officers, 1671 01:56:58,251 --> 01:57:04,709 and nine sub-officers, I think. The rest were troops, and about 110 wounded. 1672 01:57:04,876 --> 01:57:10,376 To give you an idea. We permanently had a... 1673 01:57:10,542 --> 01:57:15,334 horrifying regimen of physical pain, very hard. 1674 01:57:15,501 --> 01:57:20,959 When I came home, I weighed 120 pounds for 5'10". 1675 01:57:21,126 --> 01:57:23,917 We slept in the field, lived like dogs, 1676 01:57:24,084 --> 01:57:28,751 spread toothpaste with our finger or our gums bled, we only had combat rations. 1677 01:57:28,917 --> 01:57:33,042 And always... That's how it worked for these operations. 1678 01:57:33,209 --> 01:57:36,667 One day, 200 clicks to the North, 300 to the South. 1679 01:57:36,834 --> 01:57:42,001 I suffered more... We went to the Negrine Oasis 1680 01:57:42,167 --> 01:57:47,917 in June, July, but I suffered ten times more from the cold than the hot weather. 1681 01:57:48,084 --> 01:57:53,126 We drove in trucks entire nights, we saw snow in October in the Aurès. 1682 01:57:53,292 --> 01:57:57,042 The rain came down for entire nights, 1683 01:57:57,209 --> 01:58:01,126 and we three were in a water hole, no fires allowed to avoid being shot. 1684 01:58:01,292 --> 01:58:03,376 And you think, "it's impossible, 1685 01:58:03,542 --> 01:58:05,959 I won't make it, I'll die before tomorrow." 1686 01:58:06,126 --> 01:58:07,917 And the next day the machine starts again. 1687 01:58:08,084 --> 01:58:10,834 There was air support, too. 1688 01:58:11,001 --> 01:58:12,792 They helped us quite a lot. 1689 01:58:12,959 --> 01:58:17,376 When we attacked, there were six coming behind us, 1690 01:58:17,542 --> 01:58:19,959 we had white squares to identify ourselves, 1691 01:58:20,126 --> 01:58:23,292 and T-6's came to Strafe 1692 01:58:23,459 --> 01:58:27,126 100 or 150 yards in front of us. 1693 01:58:28,417 --> 01:58:30,792 The guys put their heads down, of course. 1694 01:58:32,209 --> 01:58:35,542 And then... You leave... 1695 01:58:38,292 --> 01:58:43,042 under a hail of bullets, you don't even realize it... 1696 01:58:43,209 --> 01:58:48,709 You come in contact. You become crazy. 1697 01:58:51,417 --> 01:58:56,376 And the thing is done, 1698 01:58:57,709 --> 01:59:00,251 there's a silence, a big silence. 1699 01:59:00,417 --> 01:59:04,834 And you think friends were hit, 1700 01:59:05,001 --> 01:59:11,667 while we lived through it. Out of luck. It's luck, that's it. 1701 01:59:11,834 --> 01:59:15,584 Did you respect your adversaries on the field? 1702 01:59:15,751 --> 01:59:20,417 You see everything. On the other side I saw cowards and courageous guys. 1703 01:59:20,584 --> 01:59:24,792 In the Muslim, or the Arab at the time, The average French guy only saw 1704 01:59:24,959 --> 01:59:27,292 a pimp or a coward. 1705 01:59:27,459 --> 01:59:32,334 I saw extremely courageous guys on the other side, and I tip my hat. 1706 01:59:32,501 --> 01:59:35,001 What did you do with the Algerian wounded? 1707 01:59:35,167 --> 01:59:37,292 During combat, 1708 01:59:37,459 --> 01:59:41,959 a guy who was severely wounded could be finished off. 1709 01:59:42,126 --> 01:59:43,542 - Why? - Did you see that? 1710 01:59:43,709 --> 01:59:45,292 I did, yes. 1711 01:59:45,459 --> 01:59:48,542 That's war, because the guy didn't stand a chance. 1712 01:59:48,709 --> 01:59:52,167 If it took him 15 or 30 minutes to die, he had zero chance 1713 01:59:52,334 --> 01:59:55,501 to make it if he stayed alone in the field. 1714 01:59:55,667 --> 02:00:00,376 And another round was often fired. But I'll say that I, myself, 1715 02:00:00,542 --> 02:00:03,001 saved wounded soldiers. 1716 02:00:03,167 --> 02:00:07,042 I remember two of them in a mine tunnel, 1717 02:00:07,209 --> 02:00:11,209 that I took out. My men who were exhausted weren't too happy. 1718 02:00:11,376 --> 02:00:13,542 One, the old one, we carried him 1719 02:00:13,709 --> 02:00:17,042 for about four hours in the mountains, in a tent. 1720 02:00:17,209 --> 02:00:22,751 And the young one, who only had a limp, he was just hit on the foot, 1721 02:00:22,917 --> 02:00:25,126 supported by two of my men, he understood, 1722 02:00:25,292 --> 02:00:29,459 and we carried him for four hours to call a chopper and evacuate them. 1723 02:00:29,626 --> 02:00:32,917 This is a prisoner. 1724 02:00:33,084 --> 02:00:37,626 A prisoner they brought back, about to be interrogated. 1725 02:00:37,792 --> 02:00:39,626 We made prisoners. 1726 02:00:39,792 --> 02:00:44,251 When I carried the radio, we had a prisoner. 1727 02:00:44,417 --> 02:00:49,917 Well, poor guy, I took advantage of him and put the radio on his back, 1728 02:00:50,084 --> 02:00:54,459 that's it. It relieved me. 1729 02:00:54,626 --> 02:00:57,334 But when we stopped to eat, 1730 02:00:57,501 --> 02:01:00,459 I shared my rations with him. 1731 02:01:00,626 --> 02:01:05,126 In the regiment, at the end of the mission, prisoners 1732 02:01:05,292 --> 02:01:09,251 were passed on to the Second Bureau or to the region supervisor, 1733 02:01:09,417 --> 02:01:12,209 but we didn't see them again. 1734 02:01:12,376 --> 02:01:17,584 Then what became of them... We knew about intelligence. 1735 02:01:17,751 --> 02:01:22,792 We knew that a prisoner taken by the Second Bureau, 1736 02:01:22,959 --> 02:01:27,001 we had a mission the next day. The guy talked. 1737 02:01:27,167 --> 02:01:29,251 How did questioning go? 1738 02:01:29,417 --> 02:01:31,209 It went well, far from what some think 1739 02:01:31,376 --> 02:01:34,876 that we tortured them, that's not true. That's bullshit. 1740 02:01:35,042 --> 02:01:38,376 Maybe there was... like everywhere else. 1741 02:01:38,542 --> 02:01:42,376 We'd question them, and they were like anyone, 1742 02:01:42,542 --> 02:01:46,126 they were scared, and they talked after a while. 1743 02:01:46,292 --> 02:01:48,584 - They talked spontaneously? - Spontaneously. 1744 02:01:48,751 --> 02:01:52,251 Sometimes it took a day or two, but they talked. 1745 02:01:52,417 --> 02:01:55,751 But we never used methods 1746 02:01:55,917 --> 02:01:58,292 like that during the latest war. It didn't come to that. 1747 02:01:58,459 --> 02:02:00,501 - Electricity? - No. Not us. 1748 02:02:00,667 --> 02:02:03,209 Now if it happened elsewhere... Not us. 1749 02:02:03,376 --> 02:02:05,501 A few blows though? 1750 02:02:05,667 --> 02:02:09,251 Not particularly, other means were... 1751 02:02:09,417 --> 02:02:13,917 They are part of the work of Second Bureau workers, but not necessarily 1752 02:02:14,084 --> 02:02:17,626 blows or things like that. No, that's not true. 1753 02:02:17,792 --> 02:02:21,334 - And where did the prisoners go after? - We would give them back. 1754 02:02:21,501 --> 02:02:24,751 Because we were on missions, the helicopters brought them back. 1755 02:02:24,917 --> 02:02:28,042 Some joined and became Harkis. 1756 02:02:28,209 --> 02:02:33,834 Others, I don't know. Maybe they were killed. Now, that's not our job. 1757 02:02:34,001 --> 02:02:39,084 They always say, and that's what drove me to speak, 1758 02:02:39,251 --> 02:02:44,709 having enough of everything they've shown for 30 years, 1759 02:02:44,876 --> 02:02:49,792 "Paratroopers equal torture." I can say it in earnest, 1760 02:02:49,959 --> 02:02:53,126 the entire time I served in that regiment, 1761 02:02:53,292 --> 02:02:57,792 until late January 1959, I never saw one case of torture, 1762 02:02:57,959 --> 02:03:03,792 never. Crimes on civilians, never. 1763 02:03:03,959 --> 02:03:06,459 It's true that the war was very tough, 1764 02:03:06,626 --> 02:03:12,876 but they can't always show us like... And I think about the friends 1765 02:03:13,042 --> 02:03:17,667 like the one whose letter I read, extraordinary guys. 1766 02:03:17,834 --> 02:03:23,334 It's staining their legacy to tell and show only one version. 1767 02:03:23,501 --> 02:03:26,084 And torture or not, 1768 02:03:26,251 --> 02:03:28,542 there's not a clean or dirty war, it doesn't exist. 1769 02:03:28,709 --> 02:03:33,501 I was nine when I saw war crimes. I was nine in 1944. 1770 02:03:33,667 --> 02:03:36,917 And I saw young Germans 1771 02:03:37,084 --> 02:03:39,584 who were behind 1772 02:03:39,751 --> 02:03:43,126 and trekked up the Rhône Valley. I was in a farm with my brother, 1773 02:03:43,292 --> 02:03:46,959 and the guys, they weren't SS, it was very hard. 1774 02:03:47,126 --> 02:03:51,751 They were shot. They only had pants, no shoes, 1775 02:03:51,917 --> 02:03:53,417 and their papers on their chest. 1776 02:03:53,584 --> 02:03:57,709 And if one of them looked young to me when I was nine, he held a rosary, 1777 02:03:57,876 --> 02:04:03,209 he really had to be young. A 16, 17, 18-year-old. 1778 02:04:03,376 --> 02:04:06,667 And it happened a few time in our region. 1779 02:04:06,834 --> 02:04:08,542 It doesn't mean there are 1780 02:04:08,709 --> 02:04:13,334 many extraordinary people. Misconduct happens. 1781 02:04:13,501 --> 02:04:16,584 It's true there were "wood chores." It exists in every war. 1782 02:04:16,751 --> 02:04:19,376 - It will always exist. - Did you witness any? 1783 02:04:19,542 --> 02:04:21,667 Well, yes. You had to. 1784 02:04:21,834 --> 02:04:28,584 But those were people from the army, not civilians. 1785 02:04:28,751 --> 02:04:32,334 - Did you ever take part? - No. Not personally. 1786 02:04:32,501 --> 02:04:34,501 - But you saw them? - Yes, we saw them go 1787 02:04:34,667 --> 02:04:39,459 to "get wood." First, we wondered what it was. 1788 02:04:39,626 --> 02:04:44,334 - Where does the expression come from? - Can't say. 1789 02:04:44,501 --> 02:04:49,251 Maybe they took the prisoners to go get wood, 1790 02:04:49,417 --> 02:04:51,959 it was a chore. They'd go but they didn't come back. 1791 02:04:52,126 --> 02:04:55,501 - There wasn't judgment. - They'd been judged before. 1792 02:04:55,667 --> 02:04:59,501 What about you? Could you have tortured a prisoner to get him to talk? 1793 02:04:59,667 --> 02:05:01,917 I think it would have been very hard. 1794 02:05:02,084 --> 02:05:06,417 That said... 1795 02:05:06,584 --> 02:05:10,626 It's mostly against terrorism. In Algiers I couldn't have, 1796 02:05:10,792 --> 02:05:12,917 but I'll admit there are moments. 1797 02:05:13,084 --> 02:05:16,292 It's sad, it's war, that what I said, there are no clean or dirty wars. 1798 02:05:16,459 --> 02:05:19,167 There's no way it can be one or the other. 1799 02:05:19,334 --> 02:05:21,959 War is atrocious in itself. 1800 02:05:22,126 --> 02:05:25,709 Certainly, people who... 1801 02:05:25,876 --> 02:05:31,584 You have them, knowing bombs could be planted on the street the next day. 1802 02:05:31,751 --> 02:05:34,084 Anybody would wonder. 1803 02:05:34,251 --> 02:05:37,876 What should you do? Let the bomb explode or torture? 1804 02:05:38,042 --> 02:05:42,917 But between this technique and what was more widespread 1805 02:05:43,084 --> 02:05:46,542 in sectors where people were isolated, poorly supervised... 1806 02:05:46,709 --> 02:05:51,917 It probably happened there, but more out of fear, cowardice and sadism, 1807 02:05:52,084 --> 02:05:56,126 and not to stop terrorists' bombs, and that's much worse. 1808 02:06:02,042 --> 02:06:05,792 Did you happen to visit the family of a friend killed in action? 1809 02:06:05,959 --> 02:06:11,501 Yes, I did. The first family I met was when I returned for Algeria. 1810 02:06:11,667 --> 02:06:15,001 I found out Fabien died, so I visited his mother and father, 1811 02:06:15,167 --> 02:06:17,667 and his brothers, because we were very connected 1812 02:06:17,834 --> 02:06:21,459 through the village. I think it's one of the hardest things. 1813 02:06:21,626 --> 02:06:22,667 DIED FOR FRANCE 1814 02:06:22,834 --> 02:06:25,709 That's why when you visit a grave 1815 02:06:25,876 --> 02:06:30,626 even 10 or 15 years later, you still feel the same thing. 1816 02:06:30,792 --> 02:06:33,542 We were 20 and not trained to... 1817 02:06:33,709 --> 02:06:38,251 We were told to go there, we went, we did our duty. 1818 02:06:38,417 --> 02:06:44,001 Then the paratroopers, we were proud to be paratroopers. 1819 02:06:44,167 --> 02:06:48,334 We had our certificate, we did our jumps. 1820 02:06:48,501 --> 02:06:51,292 We were special. 1821 02:06:51,459 --> 02:06:55,251 Then things came up. They said paratroopers 1822 02:06:55,417 --> 02:06:59,042 were thugs, torturers, this and that. 1823 02:06:59,209 --> 02:07:03,501 So I kept quiet in civilian life, I didn't say anything. 1824 02:07:03,667 --> 02:07:07,542 Then 30 years passed, and I think we should talk about it, 1825 02:07:07,709 --> 02:07:09,667 because 1826 02:07:09,834 --> 02:07:14,292 some of our mates are on the brink. 1827 02:07:14,459 --> 02:07:18,959 I got news from some, even long after. 1828 02:07:19,126 --> 02:07:22,542 I tried to track down others, people I'd lost track of. 1829 02:07:22,709 --> 02:07:26,501 Boys of extraordinary dedication. 1830 02:07:26,667 --> 02:07:29,751 There's even one who found me 1831 02:07:29,917 --> 02:07:34,542 three years ago, he called me from across the country. 1832 02:07:34,709 --> 02:07:39,959 And I'll admit, he must have been drinking, 1833 02:07:40,126 --> 02:07:43,584 but he called at 7 p.m., I picked up. 1834 02:07:43,751 --> 02:07:47,126 I was at the office, working late. 1835 02:07:47,292 --> 02:07:51,667 I answer, "Robert André," and this boy tells me, 1836 02:07:51,834 --> 02:07:57,209 "I want to kill myself. I wanted to call my brother, 1837 02:07:57,376 --> 02:07:59,251 and I wanted to call you, sir." 1838 02:07:59,417 --> 02:08:02,917 And it took 45 minutes to de-escalate the situation. 1839 02:08:03,084 --> 02:08:07,376 I said, "Time has passed, no need to call me sir. 1840 02:08:07,542 --> 02:08:12,334 I have been looking for you for years, now I think you can do it, 1841 02:08:12,501 --> 02:08:16,959 but before you do, let's meet over a bottle of champagne." 1842 02:08:17,126 --> 02:08:20,667 And I think I de-escalated the situation, I had him again on the phone 1843 02:08:20,834 --> 02:08:23,667 a couple of weeks later, and I lost track of him again. 1844 02:08:23,834 --> 02:08:27,417 They did their job. They were drafted, didn't complain, 1845 02:08:27,584 --> 02:08:31,667 expecting the re-drafted, but they went anyway. 1846 02:08:31,834 --> 02:08:33,751 I think... 1847 02:08:35,459 --> 02:08:38,792 we have a right. We have a right, yes. 1848 02:08:41,167 --> 02:08:44,251 When you came back, did you still sing Bécaud? 1849 02:08:44,417 --> 02:08:48,417 No. No. It was over. 1850 02:08:49,501 --> 02:08:54,001 No, because they'd ask me to sing in the section. 1851 02:08:57,084 --> 02:09:00,834 I sang the Bécaud song. It was... 1852 02:09:03,042 --> 02:09:05,709 "I had only one friend." 1853 02:09:10,459 --> 02:09:15,667 And with each skirmish, we lost one or two, 1854 02:09:15,834 --> 02:09:18,584 and then I refused to sing it. 1855 02:09:18,751 --> 02:09:21,917 Alonzo, we called Zébi. 1856 02:09:22,084 --> 02:09:24,292 Alonzo, when he came back, 1857 02:09:24,459 --> 02:09:27,959 he was no longer the Zébi we knew. He was someone else. 1858 02:09:28,709 --> 02:09:33,001 He was a happy boy, he sang, he joked. 1859 02:09:33,167 --> 02:09:34,751 The life of the party. 1860 02:09:34,917 --> 02:09:38,792 He was still inclined to laugh and tell jokes, 1861 02:09:38,959 --> 02:09:42,501 but he stopped laughing as quickly as he started. 1862 02:09:42,667 --> 02:09:47,334 But before that, we knew when it started, but never when it ended. 1863 02:09:48,584 --> 02:09:52,917 And this guy came back traumatized. I think he came back traumatized. 1864 02:09:53,084 --> 02:09:59,959 One day you will see we will meet 1865 02:10:00,126 --> 02:10:07,001 Somewhere, anywhere Guided by chance 1866 02:10:07,167 --> 02:10:13,667 We will look at each other And we will smile at each other 1867 02:10:13,834 --> 02:10:19,834 And hand in hand Down the streets we will go 1868 02:10:20,001 --> 02:10:26,876 But time goes by so quickly The evening will hide 1869 02:10:27,042 --> 02:10:33,292 Our hearts, these two thieves Who keep their happiness 1870 02:10:33,459 --> 02:10:39,667 And we will arrive On a gray square 1871 02:10:39,834 --> 02:10:41,334 Where the cobblestones 1872 02:10:41,501 --> 02:10:47,501 Will be sweet to our gray souls 1873 02:11:43,501 --> 02:11:48,834 We always fell into ambushes, so you needed a keen eye and to be fast. 1874 02:11:49,001 --> 02:11:55,584 The other guys would set up an ambush, and it was very costly. 1875 02:11:55,751 --> 02:11:57,792 It was very fast, and many people died. 1876 02:12:07,792 --> 02:12:12,417 We barely got to the undergrowth, we were caught in heavy fire 1877 02:12:12,584 --> 02:12:15,876 by a Fellagha who was certainly waiting for us. 1878 02:12:16,042 --> 02:12:21,667 Since it was always surprise attacks, you had to shoot first, 1879 02:12:21,834 --> 02:12:23,626 because there was no mercy. 1880 02:12:32,459 --> 02:12:35,626 I was in the fifth truck. 1881 02:12:35,792 --> 02:12:39,376 It was a notch-landmine set on the fifth truck, mine. 1882 02:12:39,542 --> 02:12:41,917 I blew up on that mine. 1883 02:12:42,084 --> 02:12:47,042 The back of the vehicle was completely torn to shreds. 1884 02:12:47,209 --> 02:12:51,834 Four dead. I got off with nothing, except some... 1885 02:12:52,001 --> 02:12:57,459 I was deaf for a while. But nothing else, physically. 1886 02:12:57,626 --> 02:13:02,584 - And a second time... - Do you have time to see what's coming? 1887 02:13:02,751 --> 02:13:06,667 No, no, no. It's very quick. Very quick. 1888 02:13:06,834 --> 02:13:11,709 Right away, there was what we call the "fireball". 1889 02:13:11,876 --> 02:13:15,042 People immediately jumped out the vehicles, 1890 02:13:15,209 --> 02:13:20,751 and we fired everywhere. It lasted a few minutes. 1891 02:13:20,917 --> 02:13:23,626 And we picked up the men who were killed. 1892 02:13:23,792 --> 02:13:27,751 We fought a while, the guys insulted us. You remember? 1893 02:13:27,917 --> 02:13:31,084 Yeah, but I was on the... 1894 02:13:31,251 --> 02:13:37,376 - I was on the side of... Right. - On the slope. Going up. 1895 02:13:37,542 --> 02:13:40,959 - And we were at the bottom. - How did they insult you? 1896 02:13:41,126 --> 02:13:45,417 "Bloody Frenchmen..." They called us everything. 1897 02:13:45,584 --> 02:13:48,126 - They were screaming, yeah. - The full list of names. 1898 02:13:48,292 --> 02:13:54,626 - Yeah. They impressed us. - They were very close. 1899 02:13:54,792 --> 02:13:57,084 But they fought too. 1900 02:13:58,292 --> 02:14:03,376 And we fired for a good while, and then it became quiet. 1901 02:14:03,542 --> 02:14:06,584 The guys fell back. 1902 02:14:08,459 --> 02:14:13,709 Serge came down without cover. 1903 02:14:14,959 --> 02:14:19,292 - Carelessness got him. Right? Yeah. - There were five of us. 1904 02:14:19,459 --> 02:14:23,501 They gave the order to fall back, and when we went back up, 1905 02:14:23,667 --> 02:14:26,501 the five of us were isolated. 1906 02:14:26,667 --> 02:14:29,667 And then, the machine guns started shooting, 1907 02:14:29,834 --> 02:14:34,876 two of them, which couldn't be too far, because you could hear them close 1908 02:14:35,042 --> 02:14:37,626 when you know automatic weapons. 1909 02:14:37,792 --> 02:14:41,167 And we were five mates. 1910 02:14:41,334 --> 02:14:45,834 I had gone through sub-officer school, I was a corporal. 1911 02:14:46,001 --> 02:14:50,626 When I heard the automatic weapons, I broke from the group, 1912 02:14:50,792 --> 02:14:52,792 thinking. 1913 02:14:52,959 --> 02:14:56,709 If an automatic weapon is fired, it'll aim at the group, not at me. 1914 02:14:56,876 --> 02:15:02,376 I was mistaken, that wasn't the scenario. 1915 02:15:02,542 --> 02:15:05,084 He aimed at me and didn't let go. 1916 02:15:05,251 --> 02:15:08,667 Since I heard it close, 1917 02:15:08,834 --> 02:15:12,959 and the impact was close, I could see them on the ground, 1918 02:15:13,126 --> 02:15:16,459 I saw that I wouldn't run for very long. 1919 02:15:16,626 --> 02:15:20,584 I was caught be the fire, I was hit and I fell, I rolled. 1920 02:15:20,751 --> 02:15:24,792 You roll, you hear shots, you hide behind trees, 1921 02:15:24,959 --> 02:15:27,667 it fired. When bullets hit the... 1922 02:15:27,834 --> 02:15:30,751 I was behind a sort of olive tree, 1923 02:15:30,917 --> 02:15:34,417 and when the bullets went through, wood chips would fall. 1924 02:15:34,584 --> 02:15:40,292 I saw that the guy was adjusting his aim. 1925 02:15:41,417 --> 02:15:43,042 And I saw I had to get out of there. 1926 02:15:43,209 --> 02:15:47,626 I let go, I started going down a little, 1927 02:15:47,792 --> 02:15:50,459 then I heard shots again. 1928 02:15:50,626 --> 02:15:54,876 Then I settled a little further down, maybe 20 yards. 1929 02:15:55,042 --> 02:16:00,542 I heard laughing, I heard talking in Algerian. 1930 02:16:00,709 --> 02:16:04,542 I opened my eyes, there were two Algerians 20 yards away 1931 02:16:04,709 --> 02:16:09,459 as if they were in a hole. I could only see half of their bodies. 1932 02:16:09,626 --> 02:16:15,417 One was in camouflage, he was firing, and the other had a black sweater. 1933 02:16:15,584 --> 02:16:20,376 And then I played dead. 1934 02:16:21,667 --> 02:16:24,417 I played dead for an hour and a half. And I was bleeding to death. 1935 02:16:24,584 --> 02:16:28,542 When I rolled over, my leg hit me everywhere. 1936 02:16:28,709 --> 02:16:33,334 Because it was all crushed up. 1937 02:16:33,501 --> 02:16:38,542 The mate who came to get me grabbed me by the hair. 1938 02:16:38,709 --> 02:16:44,459 It woke me up. And I saw his rifle swinging under my nose. 1939 02:16:44,626 --> 02:16:48,167 He even asked me if I was a Fell. I said, "Are you crazy, 1940 02:16:48,334 --> 02:16:53,292 I'm in the 4th company," he didn't recognize me. 1941 02:16:53,459 --> 02:16:57,251 My face must have been covered in dirt, blood. 1942 02:16:57,417 --> 02:16:58,959 We ran. 1943 02:17:00,584 --> 02:17:04,584 And we brought Serge back up, we pulled him. His leg was twisted. 1944 02:17:04,751 --> 02:17:07,167 And we pulled him, 1945 02:17:07,334 --> 02:17:10,417 to get him up there, on the ridge. 1946 02:17:10,584 --> 02:17:11,917 We made it. 1947 02:17:12,084 --> 02:17:18,709 Well, three or four guys climbed with him to the top. 1948 02:17:18,876 --> 02:17:21,376 Because we had to maintain cover at the bottom. 1949 02:17:22,459 --> 02:17:24,042 And we stayed as cover. 1950 02:17:24,209 --> 02:17:27,251 But before going back up... 1951 02:17:27,417 --> 02:17:31,209 - They took an hour and a half, to come up. - They gave the order 1952 02:17:31,376 --> 02:17:35,584 to launch smoke bombs to show air support where to shoot. 1953 02:17:36,667 --> 02:17:39,084 That's when, if you remember, 1954 02:17:40,209 --> 02:17:46,084 that the smoke bombs fell on our faces. 1955 02:17:46,251 --> 02:17:48,501 - Yeah, yeah. Now you mention it? - Remember? 1956 02:17:48,667 --> 02:17:50,792 That's when they pulled you faster, 1957 02:17:50,959 --> 02:17:56,542 and we managed to climb to not be caught in air support fire. 1958 02:17:56,709 --> 02:17:59,334 I didn't know if I would make it. 1959 02:17:59,501 --> 02:18:03,626 My mates climbed up, I could hear them breathing. 1960 02:18:03,792 --> 02:18:06,834 They kept the helicopter from leaving, because they wanted to leave. 1961 02:18:07,001 --> 02:18:11,376 They didn't want to fly at night. It was getting dark. 1962 02:18:11,542 --> 02:18:14,626 Lucky for me, or I wouldn't be here. 1963 02:18:14,792 --> 02:18:16,292 The helicopter didn't want to wait? 1964 02:18:16,459 --> 02:18:19,209 They wanted to go before nightfall. 1965 02:18:19,376 --> 02:18:21,751 I wasn't the only one, they must have had other people. 1966 02:18:21,917 --> 02:18:26,251 So they took me 1967 02:18:26,417 --> 02:18:31,376 to Algiers, to the hospital... Not Algiers, Tizi-Ouzou. 1968 02:18:31,542 --> 02:18:34,417 - I was in Tizi-Ouzou. - What did you have exactly? 1969 02:18:34,584 --> 02:18:39,209 My leg was crushed to 1.5 feet. 1970 02:18:39,376 --> 02:18:45,042 They finished the cutting. I ended up 1971 02:18:45,209 --> 02:18:46,834 without a leg. 1972 02:18:47,001 --> 02:18:51,209 - You were amputated? - I was amputated. 1973 02:18:55,001 --> 02:18:56,792 On January 12th. 1974 02:19:23,501 --> 02:19:28,501 I stayed a month there, after the amputation, before going home. 1975 02:19:28,667 --> 02:19:32,459 Then they put me on a med-evac plane. 1976 02:19:32,626 --> 02:19:36,251 From there, I flew to Desgenettes. 1977 02:19:36,417 --> 02:19:40,251 I arrived in Desgenettes Military Hospital. 1978 02:19:40,417 --> 02:19:43,126 I was in a little chair. 1979 02:19:43,292 --> 02:19:48,876 I still remember when my wife came to see me. 1980 02:19:49,042 --> 02:19:54,376 I was in a little chair, and when you are twenty-something years old, 1981 02:19:54,542 --> 02:19:57,417 I wanted to jump through the window. 1982 02:19:57,584 --> 02:20:01,917 How did you find out that your husband had been wounded and amputated? 1983 02:20:03,751 --> 02:20:09,542 That was the problem, nobody dared to tell me. 1984 02:20:14,834 --> 02:20:17,209 They didn't because... 1985 02:20:17,376 --> 02:20:21,834 in the meantime, I became depressed. 1986 02:20:22,001 --> 02:20:27,334 And people thought, "How is she going to take it?" 1987 02:20:27,501 --> 02:20:31,709 I don't know, it was a little clairvoyant for me 1988 02:20:31,876 --> 02:20:33,459 and... 1989 02:20:33,626 --> 02:20:39,542 I opened the newspaper and I saw, 1990 02:20:39,709 --> 02:20:43,917 "He's twenty years old, he leaves in one piece, 1991 02:20:44,084 --> 02:20:46,959 and comes back with a missing leg." 1992 02:20:47,126 --> 02:20:52,292 And I don't know... There were only first names, no last names. 1993 02:20:52,459 --> 02:20:55,626 There were initials, of course. And I thought... 1994 02:20:55,792 --> 02:20:59,959 But that... Suddenly I said, that's it, it's... 1995 02:21:03,959 --> 02:21:07,501 - And nobody said anything? - No. 1996 02:21:07,667 --> 02:21:11,667 Of course, I was told after. 1997 02:21:12,959 --> 02:21:15,876 And you didn't want to write to your wife 1998 02:21:16,042 --> 02:21:19,584 - that you were wounded? - Well... 1999 02:21:19,751 --> 02:21:23,667 When it happened she had to be notified, 2000 02:21:23,834 --> 02:21:26,042 but I didn't want to worry her. 2001 02:21:28,834 --> 02:21:31,959 I told you, when I saw her, 2002 02:21:32,126 --> 02:21:34,584 I wanted to jump out the window. 2003 02:21:34,751 --> 02:21:36,709 It's simple. 2004 02:21:36,876 --> 02:21:38,667 Anyway. 2005 02:21:38,834 --> 02:21:41,334 When I hear him talk about it, it... 2006 02:21:41,501 --> 02:21:44,501 it brings back memories, 2007 02:21:44,667 --> 02:21:46,292 and it's tough. 2008 02:21:48,501 --> 02:21:50,292 No, I never talk about it. 2009 02:21:50,459 --> 02:21:53,042 People see me like this, with my pants, 2010 02:21:53,209 --> 02:21:55,876 they think I live like everyone else. That's not true. 2011 02:21:56,042 --> 02:21:59,334 I told you it was a burden. It's true. 2012 02:21:59,501 --> 02:22:01,167 At the beach, I can't swim. 2013 02:22:01,334 --> 02:22:04,584 Or I have to drag myself like a crab on the sand. 2014 02:22:04,751 --> 02:22:08,084 I can't go to the mountains, nothing. 2015 02:22:08,251 --> 02:22:11,834 I tried caves, it's impossible. 2016 02:22:12,001 --> 02:22:14,292 I can't do anything. 2017 02:22:14,459 --> 02:22:18,084 - That war ruined your life. - Yes, affirmative. 2018 02:22:19,417 --> 02:22:22,334 It did, yes. 2019 02:22:22,501 --> 02:22:25,251 I'd like to say, I don't mean to interrupt but... 2020 02:22:25,417 --> 02:22:28,667 For us, the Algerian War, it's every day. 2021 02:22:28,834 --> 02:22:31,542 - No. - It's not once a year, 2022 02:22:31,709 --> 02:22:36,001 like I see the memorial etc. Maybe we're not there 2023 02:22:36,167 --> 02:22:38,751 on March 19th, but... 2024 02:22:38,917 --> 02:22:42,167 For us, the Algerian War, it's every day. 2025 02:22:43,501 --> 02:22:46,417 When he has to put on his prosthetic leg, when summer comes 2026 02:22:46,584 --> 02:22:48,959 and he's hot and can't walk. 2027 02:22:49,126 --> 02:22:53,792 Well, people who have a prosthetic limb know the problem but... 2028 02:22:55,167 --> 02:23:00,417 And the person who is with them, I'm not complaining, you also live 2029 02:23:00,584 --> 02:23:04,126 without one leg. That's it. 2030 02:23:06,209 --> 02:23:08,001 Sub-lieutenant Arnaud, Jean. 2031 02:23:08,167 --> 02:23:10,542 Sergeant Perrier, Maurice, 2032 02:23:10,709 --> 02:23:13,126 Corporal Leoni, Jacques, 2033 02:23:13,292 --> 02:23:15,126 Infantrymen Garnier, Jacky, 2034 02:23:15,292 --> 02:23:16,501 Couroumian, Paul. 2035 02:23:16,667 --> 02:23:20,376 Trollan, Roger. Cranier, Robert. Lasserre, Roger. 2036 02:23:20,542 --> 02:23:23,917 Veterans of the section are glad to take this opportunity 2037 02:23:24,084 --> 02:23:30,501 to share with their family and friends their affectionate thoughts. 2038 02:23:30,667 --> 02:23:33,459 Corporal Jean-Claude Schwabe. 2039 02:23:33,626 --> 02:23:37,667 I'm sending love to my fiancée and my family. I'm well. Jean-Claude. 2040 02:23:39,709 --> 02:23:42,751 This is Robin. All is well. 2041 02:23:42,917 --> 02:23:47,292 Hello to all my mates in AFN. And much love to my fiancée, 2042 02:23:47,459 --> 02:23:48,751 my parents, and my friends. 2043 02:23:49,751 --> 02:23:53,959 Corporal Cros, 3rd company SP 88106. 2044 02:23:54,126 --> 02:23:56,459 Jeanine, darling, sending you a sweet kiss, 2045 02:23:56,626 --> 02:23:59,126 and I'm asking you to have courage 2046 02:23:59,292 --> 02:24:02,167 to stand the days remaining... 2047 02:24:02,334 --> 02:24:07,459 Outside of operations, what was the life of a draftee like? 2048 02:24:07,626 --> 02:24:12,001 I think it was monotonous and boring. 2049 02:24:15,459 --> 02:24:18,126 When we were not on mission, we were stuck 2050 02:24:18,292 --> 02:24:22,542 in a few thousand square-feet refuge, 2051 02:24:22,709 --> 02:24:25,417 and we did nothing. 2052 02:24:25,584 --> 02:24:32,376 At least, I listened to the radio, I kept myself busy. 2053 02:24:32,542 --> 02:24:37,417 We'd hang out. We'd play cards. 2054 02:24:37,584 --> 02:24:41,876 We played French tarot. 2055 02:24:42,042 --> 02:24:44,584 We ate, slept, and played cards. 2056 02:24:44,751 --> 02:24:47,834 This picture was taken in January. 2057 02:24:48,001 --> 02:24:52,584 We had about up to 30-35 inches of snow 2058 02:24:52,751 --> 02:24:55,209 for about one month, one month and a half. 2059 02:24:55,376 --> 02:24:58,667 We were stuck for days. 2060 02:24:58,834 --> 02:25:01,459 There was no military action. 2061 02:25:01,626 --> 02:25:05,001 Everyone stayed in their tent. 2062 02:25:05,167 --> 02:25:07,126 Tarot games never ended. 2063 02:25:07,292 --> 02:25:09,709 They started at 8 a.m., and finished at 2 a.m. 2064 02:25:09,876 --> 02:25:15,542 And really, we felt we were living like convicts at this post, 2065 02:25:15,709 --> 02:25:17,417 waiting for days to pass, 2066 02:25:17,584 --> 02:25:19,792 the months, waiting to be freed. 2067 02:25:19,959 --> 02:25:21,709 You needed outlets. 2068 02:25:21,876 --> 02:25:24,917 We didn't practice sports, we couldn't. 2069 02:25:25,084 --> 02:25:26,667 So I had an idea. 2070 02:25:26,834 --> 02:25:29,417 We had cables since we worked in a power station. 2071 02:25:29,584 --> 02:25:31,542 The cable contained a lead sheath. 2072 02:25:31,709 --> 02:25:36,334 We took the lead out, we made wooden molds, 2073 02:25:36,501 --> 02:25:40,334 we poured in it with tubes, we made bars. 2074 02:25:40,501 --> 02:25:45,167 At the time there were many ads for bodybuilding. 2075 02:25:45,334 --> 02:25:49,292 I don't remember if it was Robert Duranton. 2076 02:25:49,459 --> 02:25:51,501 I remember because he was in Monaco... 2077 02:25:51,667 --> 02:25:55,417 And we bought a bodybuilding class via mail, 2078 02:25:55,584 --> 02:25:57,834 and we made weights with the lead, 2079 02:25:58,001 --> 02:26:01,042 and the entire team had to do it, but it was a pleasure. 2080 02:26:01,209 --> 02:26:03,376 We did it on the roof. 2081 02:26:03,542 --> 02:26:06,917 Everyday people did their 15 or 30 minutes. 2082 02:26:07,084 --> 02:26:09,542 Simply in order to keep the boys' spirits up. 2083 02:26:09,709 --> 02:26:12,417 It was the Far West, 2084 02:26:12,584 --> 02:26:17,959 because when we went to Guelma, Bône, etc. 2085 02:26:18,126 --> 02:26:19,709 We'd have a drink. 2086 02:26:19,876 --> 02:26:22,959 We had to pick a bar with grilled windows. 2087 02:26:23,126 --> 02:26:24,334 - French? - No, no, no. 2088 02:26:24,501 --> 02:26:27,876 No, no, no. We'd go to 2089 02:26:28,042 --> 02:26:32,834 the Arabs as well as to the natives... The ethnically French. 2090 02:26:33,001 --> 02:26:36,709 It didn't bother us. But the gun was on the counter, 2091 02:26:36,876 --> 02:26:38,292 always with its chain. 2092 02:26:38,459 --> 02:26:40,542 We'd pour the anisette, etc. 2093 02:26:40,709 --> 02:26:45,917 We got used to avoid having a window behind us, if possible. 2094 02:26:46,084 --> 02:26:48,042 The entrances were grilled. 2095 02:26:48,209 --> 02:26:51,126 The road to the villages had double bends everywhere. 2096 02:26:51,292 --> 02:26:55,751 What we did depended on the person. Some... 2097 02:26:55,917 --> 02:27:01,084 I think Kronenbourg was their go-to. 2098 02:27:01,251 --> 02:27:04,834 Beer was really a great fuel 2099 02:27:05,001 --> 02:27:09,126 because some would drink really a lot of it. 2100 02:27:09,292 --> 02:27:11,376 Ten, twenty, thirty beers a day was common. 2101 02:27:11,542 --> 02:27:17,751 The few weeks I spent with the legion were completely crazy 2102 02:27:17,917 --> 02:27:22,001 because to join the coast, we went to Bône for supplies, 2103 02:27:22,167 --> 02:27:24,251 or maybe to Constantine. 2104 02:27:24,417 --> 02:27:26,459 And some sections on the road were hard, 2105 02:27:26,626 --> 02:27:30,334 we had to be escorted through the gorges of El Kantara, 2106 02:27:30,501 --> 02:27:33,792 and they just went to get truckloads of beer. 2107 02:27:33,959 --> 02:27:38,584 They drank when they went on mission, they drank when they returned, 2108 02:27:38,751 --> 02:27:42,542 and they drank when they didn't go. 2109 02:27:42,709 --> 02:27:46,084 - Officers too? - They did too. 2110 02:27:46,251 --> 02:27:47,792 Especially the career officers. 2111 02:27:47,959 --> 02:27:51,584 What helps? I think... 2112 02:27:51,751 --> 02:27:55,751 When you've tried everything possible 2113 02:27:57,001 --> 02:28:00,084 to talk to people, to try to... 2114 02:28:00,251 --> 02:28:04,292 to feel like you're changing them a little, 2115 02:28:04,459 --> 02:28:07,834 after that, you take refuge in your own head. 2116 02:28:08,001 --> 02:28:12,501 Books were very important for me. 2117 02:28:12,667 --> 02:28:15,876 That's when I started to buy books in the Pléiade collection, 2118 02:28:16,042 --> 02:28:17,209 because it was smaller. 2119 02:28:17,376 --> 02:28:19,126 - What did you read? - In bags. 2120 02:28:19,292 --> 02:28:25,292 There were two very important authors. 2121 02:28:25,501 --> 02:28:28,042 The Thibaults, by Martin du Gard, 2122 02:28:28,209 --> 02:28:33,251 and Proust, because might as well bring a good chunk. 2123 02:28:33,417 --> 02:28:37,292 There was a sort of inescapability of the passage of time. 2124 02:29:13,542 --> 02:29:16,167 I preferred being on a mission than staying in camp. 2125 02:29:16,334 --> 02:29:21,084 - We had a box of rations. - Some rations were not bad. 2126 02:29:21,251 --> 02:29:26,084 I liked the Muslim ones. They were the best. They had sardines. 2127 02:29:26,251 --> 02:29:28,709 Sardines, but no pâté. 2128 02:29:29,792 --> 02:29:31,501 - There was one chocolate... - They were... 2129 02:29:31,667 --> 02:29:33,334 Yes, they were made after. 2130 02:29:33,501 --> 02:29:35,834 After the European ones. 2131 02:29:36,001 --> 02:29:38,292 European rations were from WWI. 2132 02:29:38,459 --> 02:29:40,417 Not WWI, Indochina. 2133 02:29:40,584 --> 02:29:41,584 Indochina. 2134 02:29:41,751 --> 02:29:43,542 It was disgusting. 2135 02:29:43,709 --> 02:29:46,709 It was even medically disgusting. 2136 02:29:46,876 --> 02:29:49,667 Disgusting in terms of taste, disgusting 2137 02:29:49,834 --> 02:29:53,792 in terms of content, disgusting in medical terms. 2138 02:29:53,959 --> 02:29:56,959 The inside of the cigarettes were completely rotten. 2139 02:29:57,126 --> 02:29:58,917 They were foam. 2140 02:29:59,084 --> 02:30:02,251 The liquor bottle. 2141 02:30:02,417 --> 02:30:05,626 - It was jet fuel. - It was jet fuel. 2142 02:30:05,792 --> 02:30:09,709 Good for a mouth wash. But you couldn't swallow it. 2143 02:30:09,876 --> 02:30:11,876 It was good for cavities. 2144 02:30:12,042 --> 02:30:15,959 When we saw the wine coming and were told to fill all the flasks, 2145 02:30:16,126 --> 02:30:18,334 we knew that night, 2146 02:30:18,501 --> 02:30:21,292 or two hours later, we were going on a mission. 2147 02:30:21,459 --> 02:30:26,542 It was wine that had been frozen and put back in... 2148 02:30:26,709 --> 02:30:29,709 Then with the... 2149 02:30:29,876 --> 02:30:32,792 And let's not forget the bromide, 2150 02:30:32,959 --> 02:30:35,001 it tasted delicious. 2151 02:30:35,167 --> 02:30:38,542 That's a myth. They never put bromide 2152 02:30:38,709 --> 02:30:40,709 in the wine. We didn't have wine anyway. 2153 02:30:40,876 --> 02:30:43,626 And we went out sometimes. 2154 02:30:43,792 --> 02:30:45,667 We hunted hogs. 2155 02:30:45,834 --> 02:30:47,584 They didn't hunt it over there. 2156 02:30:47,751 --> 02:30:51,626 When we could get fresh meat, we'd go for it. 2157 02:30:51,792 --> 02:30:54,167 When we went on mission, 2158 02:30:54,334 --> 02:30:58,709 we came across entire herds in the forbidden zones. 2159 02:30:58,876 --> 02:31:01,917 So the cows, the sheep... 2160 02:31:03,167 --> 02:31:07,751 And most of the time chickens in huts. 2161 02:31:07,917 --> 02:31:11,001 We took a chicken here and there. And we managed... 2162 02:31:11,167 --> 02:31:14,709 - Did you pay for them? - Absolutely not. 2163 02:31:14,876 --> 02:31:16,584 I never paid. 2164 02:31:17,959 --> 02:31:21,834 They were in the forbidden zone, not supposed to be there, 2165 02:31:22,001 --> 02:31:24,917 so we systematically took them. 2166 02:31:26,251 --> 02:31:28,417 - And you made your little... - Yeah. 2167 02:31:28,584 --> 02:31:31,667 That was the only way we could eat properly. 2168 02:31:31,834 --> 02:31:36,917 The rations at that time were even worse than today. 2169 02:31:37,084 --> 02:31:40,542 When there were parties, we were invited 2170 02:31:40,709 --> 02:31:44,667 by the douar chief, who was the equivalent of a mayor, 2171 02:31:44,834 --> 02:31:48,709 and we'd share a meshoui or a shorba, 2172 02:31:48,876 --> 02:31:52,834 a kind of soup with big vegetables inside. 2173 02:31:53,001 --> 02:31:58,334 But one thing I forget is whether I ate salad in Algeria. 2174 02:31:58,501 --> 02:32:01,542 I always wondered. I know we ate meat 2175 02:32:01,709 --> 02:32:03,917 - and steaks... - You maybe? 2176 02:32:04,084 --> 02:32:06,417 - But salad... - Because Michelet was close. 2177 02:32:06,584 --> 02:32:10,209 - Dandelion. They brought it up. - It's not... 2178 02:32:10,376 --> 02:32:12,751 It was a kind of thistle, 2179 02:32:12,917 --> 02:32:15,792 but the thorns didn't sting, they were like hair. 2180 02:32:15,959 --> 02:32:19,334 We saw Kabyles eating it, 2181 02:32:19,501 --> 02:32:21,251 and we picked some. 2182 02:32:21,417 --> 02:32:26,167 We ate it raw with a sauce or cooked. 2183 02:32:28,042 --> 02:32:31,709 How did you cope with the absence of women? 2184 02:32:31,876 --> 02:32:34,459 Let's says that when we came into town... 2185 02:32:34,626 --> 02:32:39,917 We shouldn't say because we are married, I was at the time. 2186 02:32:40,084 --> 02:32:43,376 Own it, we were support. So brothels were for us, 2187 02:32:43,542 --> 02:32:46,376 and that's it. We're men, that's it. 2188 02:32:46,542 --> 02:32:52,001 After a while, sexual desire would subside, it's true. 2189 02:32:52,167 --> 02:32:55,959 Isolation... Anxiety, maybe. 2190 02:32:56,126 --> 02:33:01,084 I've never seen someone, when I talked to the men, 2191 02:33:01,251 --> 02:33:04,334 with difficulties on that level, sexual desire. 2192 02:33:04,501 --> 02:33:08,667 - Did you see the infamous MCB's? - Once. 2193 02:33:08,834 --> 02:33:13,251 There were mostly catering to the active-duty personnel, 2194 02:33:13,417 --> 02:33:15,667 the soldiers, 2195 02:33:15,834 --> 02:33:19,751 and more precisely, to the Legion. 2196 02:33:19,917 --> 02:33:23,542 There was a series of important missions in the area, 2197 02:33:23,709 --> 02:33:25,334 and I saw the... 2198 02:33:25,501 --> 02:33:30,376 the GMC's, covered trucks, closed, 2199 02:33:30,542 --> 02:33:33,834 that were called MCB's, so they were MCB GMC's. 2200 02:33:34,001 --> 02:33:37,459 Two regiments had the authorization. 2201 02:33:37,626 --> 02:33:41,334 The Legion and the Algerian infantry. 2202 02:33:41,501 --> 02:33:44,292 We also had Algerian infantrymen. 2203 02:33:44,459 --> 02:33:47,584 They were the only regiments who had the authorization 2204 02:33:47,751 --> 02:33:51,084 from the ministry of armies. 2205 02:33:51,251 --> 02:33:56,001 - How did it work? - When they came back from mission? 2206 02:33:56,167 --> 02:33:59,417 The first thing was to have a Kronenbourg, 2207 02:33:59,584 --> 02:34:01,459 and then 2208 02:34:01,626 --> 02:34:08,167 the medic took out his table, 2209 02:34:08,334 --> 02:34:12,459 he had the guys' names, he took everything out. 2210 02:34:12,626 --> 02:34:16,001 He looked and said, "Alright, you can go." 2211 02:34:16,167 --> 02:34:20,584 He got into the truck and did what he had to do. 2212 02:34:21,917 --> 02:34:27,001 This is a picture of the MCB truck, for Military Campaign Brothel, 2213 02:34:27,167 --> 02:34:30,209 where there were four Muslim women 2214 02:34:30,376 --> 02:34:33,001 and six European women, 2215 02:34:33,167 --> 02:34:35,334 who followed us on missions. 2216 02:34:35,501 --> 02:34:39,834 - For how many men? - Imagine. 2217 02:34:40,001 --> 02:34:42,542 It was seven francs. 2218 02:34:42,709 --> 02:34:45,042 Five to seven francs. 2219 02:34:45,209 --> 02:34:46,876 They really turned tricks. 2220 02:34:47,042 --> 02:34:49,834 For a little extra, it was more expensive. 2221 02:34:50,001 --> 02:34:52,251 Coming out we were completely broke. 2222 02:34:59,084 --> 02:35:02,417 We are here in the headquarters of the National Veterans' Union, 2223 02:35:02,584 --> 02:35:04,917 created in 1917, 2224 02:35:05,084 --> 02:35:07,292 and the National Veterans' Union in North Africa, 2225 02:35:07,459 --> 02:35:09,251 since 1957. 2226 02:35:09,417 --> 02:35:13,917 I have a few friends with me. For example, my friend Remli, 2227 02:35:14,084 --> 02:35:19,376 who did the Algerian campaign, and then was held six years 2228 02:35:19,542 --> 02:35:21,834 in the FLN jails. 2229 02:35:22,001 --> 02:35:26,167 He was freed by friends from Grenoble. He has been with us 2230 02:35:26,334 --> 02:35:29,209 since he came back to France. 2231 02:35:29,376 --> 02:35:33,209 - Do you want to introduce yourself? - I'm the president of D7-Io. 2232 02:35:33,376 --> 02:35:39,042 I've been taking care of veterans from Algeria for ten years. 2233 02:35:39,209 --> 02:35:42,209 And I live in Tencin. 2234 02:35:42,376 --> 02:35:44,501 I have the entire département, 2235 02:35:44,667 --> 02:35:50,542 Crolles, Froges, Champ-près-Froges, and Tencin. 2236 02:35:50,709 --> 02:35:53,251 - An Indochina veteran. - Were you drafted? 2237 02:35:53,417 --> 02:35:56,792 - No, I'm a Vietnam veteran. - Right. 2238 02:35:56,959 --> 02:35:59,792 - Go ahead. - Louis Metter, born in Bône 2239 02:35:59,959 --> 02:36:03,417 in the former French département... 2240 02:36:03,584 --> 02:36:05,459 of Constantine. Yes, alright. 2241 02:36:06,459 --> 02:36:09,042 I was re-drafted, 2242 02:36:09,209 --> 02:36:11,001 for law enforcement missions 2243 02:36:11,167 --> 02:36:13,542 from April 1st, 1955, 2244 02:36:13,709 --> 02:36:16,084 to the 30th of... 2245 02:36:16,251 --> 02:36:18,084 No, I got it wrong. 2246 02:36:18,251 --> 02:36:21,709 From October 1st, 1955, 2247 02:36:21,876 --> 02:36:25,376 to May 30th, 1956. 2248 02:36:25,542 --> 02:36:29,584 And I'm currently vice president of the UNCFN. 2249 02:36:29,751 --> 02:36:31,834 And recipient of the Combatants' Cross. 2250 02:36:32,001 --> 02:36:34,459 - And our friend. - My name is Arsène Coital. 2251 02:36:34,626 --> 02:36:36,209 I live in Grenoble, of course. 2252 02:36:36,376 --> 02:36:39,626 A veteran from North Africa from the 7th RTM, 2253 02:36:39,792 --> 02:36:41,584 7th company. 2254 02:36:41,751 --> 02:36:44,626 A draftee, like many others. 2255 02:36:44,792 --> 02:36:46,042 Good. 2256 02:36:46,209 --> 02:36:49,459 I want to bring to your attention 2257 02:36:49,626 --> 02:36:52,459 a few interesting aspects of this meeting room. 2258 02:36:52,626 --> 02:36:56,334 You have the NVU's flags behind... 2259 02:36:56,501 --> 02:36:59,417 our friend Arsène. But also here, 2260 02:36:59,584 --> 02:37:03,042 and this was placed like this deliberately, it's symbolic. 2261 02:37:03,209 --> 02:37:10,167 You see a German helmet taken in '45 in the Nice area. 2262 02:37:10,334 --> 02:37:13,417 And here, you see the remains of a house 2263 02:37:13,584 --> 02:37:17,917 the Germans burnt in Vercors during the '40-'45 war. 2264 02:37:18,084 --> 02:37:22,209 You also have our prestigious patrons, Clémenceau, 2265 02:37:22,376 --> 02:37:26,001 and Reverend Pierre Brottier, who in 1917, 2266 02:37:26,167 --> 02:37:29,084 built the National Veterans' Union. 2267 02:37:29,251 --> 02:37:32,417 Then you have, up here on the wall, 2268 02:37:32,584 --> 02:37:36,084 a few hats that are important to us, 2269 02:37:36,251 --> 02:37:40,334 each of them being a memory. Here's my hat. 2270 02:37:40,501 --> 02:37:44,501 And you can see the most emotionally valuable thing, 2271 02:37:44,667 --> 02:37:49,126 my father's helmet, 1914, exactly in the middle of the French flag, 2272 02:37:49,292 --> 02:37:51,209 right above the white part. 2273 02:37:51,376 --> 02:37:54,542 Here's how I can present the National Veterans' Union. 2274 02:37:54,709 --> 02:37:57,626 And now, if you'll allow me, let's perhaps talk about 2275 02:37:57,792 --> 02:38:01,251 the problems bringing us here, that is to say, Algeria. 2276 02:38:01,417 --> 02:38:05,417 When you were called to serve in Algeria 2277 02:38:05,584 --> 02:38:07,751 in 1958, you were 27... 2278 02:38:07,917 --> 02:38:10,042 - Absolutely. - You were a Gaullist at the time. 2279 02:38:10,209 --> 02:38:13,334 I'm not at all a Gaullist. I've never followed man or party. 2280 02:38:13,501 --> 02:38:15,834 I'm proud of it. I thought at the time 2281 02:38:16,001 --> 02:38:19,584 that I'd follow Gaullists, 2282 02:38:19,751 --> 02:38:22,084 because it was the only recourse at that time. 2283 02:38:22,251 --> 02:38:26,751 - For you, de Gaulle was French Algeria? - That's what he said. 2284 02:38:26,917 --> 02:38:30,417 So you went there to defend and save French Algeria. 2285 02:38:30,584 --> 02:38:33,459 Save, no. I won't save Algeria. 2286 02:38:33,626 --> 02:38:36,251 But to help, 2287 02:38:36,417 --> 02:38:39,417 help the French people there, the ones who think like me, 2288 02:38:39,584 --> 02:38:42,084 to keep a French département 2289 02:38:42,251 --> 02:38:45,584 in France, why? Because it's in the Constitution, among other things. 2290 02:38:45,751 --> 02:38:49,042 Can you explain what the SAS were, and what their missions were? 2291 02:38:49,209 --> 02:38:50,834 So... 2292 02:38:51,001 --> 02:38:55,709 It's huge. That's why I jotted down some thoughts. 2293 02:38:55,876 --> 02:38:57,542 We had several hats. 2294 02:38:57,709 --> 02:39:01,584 First, I was a village chief. And I had 18 villages 2295 02:39:01,751 --> 02:39:03,084 under my command. 2296 02:39:03,251 --> 02:39:07,959 In this village, Chouabet, my command post, I had 437 residents. 2297 02:39:08,126 --> 02:39:12,001 I was the military representative, I was an officer, 2298 02:39:12,167 --> 02:39:14,626 and in that respect, I tried 2299 02:39:14,792 --> 02:39:18,084 to guarantee the villagers' security. 2300 02:39:18,251 --> 02:39:22,334 For Harkis, families... 2301 02:39:22,501 --> 02:39:25,667 The Harkis were here... The Moghaznis, they was called, 2302 02:39:25,834 --> 02:39:30,376 were here to help me, and defend a territory. 2303 02:39:30,542 --> 02:39:33,501 I was also the prefect's deputy. 2304 02:39:33,667 --> 02:39:40,667 I was in charge of the administration, of the community. 2305 02:39:40,834 --> 02:39:46,792 I did official documents, passes, I recorded births, 2306 02:39:46,959 --> 02:39:49,417 and sadly, deaths. 2307 02:39:49,584 --> 02:39:51,376 And third, 2308 02:39:51,542 --> 02:39:55,292 I provided free medical aid, every day, 2309 02:39:55,459 --> 02:39:57,667 to treat people who needed it. 2310 02:39:57,834 --> 02:39:59,334 One interesting thing, 2311 02:39:59,501 --> 02:40:05,292 this area hadn't seen a Frenchman before '54 or '55, something like that. 2312 02:40:05,459 --> 02:40:08,167 It was a remote area, wild. 2313 02:40:08,334 --> 02:40:11,834 Algeria is a country that is under-colonized. 2314 02:40:12,001 --> 02:40:13,459 There was not enough... 2315 02:40:13,626 --> 02:40:18,917 The French administration never stepped up to what it should have been. 2316 02:40:19,084 --> 02:40:25,709 You couldn't ask people to go to these remote villages, 2317 02:40:25,876 --> 02:40:30,167 like Outed Aissa or Chaoubet. You had to be crazy to settle there. 2318 02:40:30,334 --> 02:40:33,126 - You traveled there? - Yes, I stayed eight days. 2319 02:40:33,292 --> 02:40:35,626 I had all the water I wanted, meaning that 2320 02:40:35,792 --> 02:40:40,751 at my husband's post, it was raining through the roof. 2321 02:40:40,917 --> 02:40:46,126 And I was separated from the Moghaznis only by a tarp. 2322 02:40:46,292 --> 02:40:50,751 When they saw hygiene, when they saw we treated them, 2323 02:40:50,917 --> 02:40:55,417 when they saw, and my friend Sikirdji could say it, 2324 02:40:55,584 --> 02:40:58,376 we gave them a shot to have children, 2325 02:40:58,542 --> 02:41:02,126 meaning a little antibiotic allowing the woman 2326 02:41:02,292 --> 02:41:05,501 to be fertile, to be fertilized, to have a child. 2327 02:41:05,667 --> 02:41:07,042 When they got all this, 2328 02:41:07,209 --> 02:41:10,542 when they saw the progress we could bring to them, 2329 02:41:10,709 --> 02:41:13,126 they really agreed to be with us, 2330 02:41:13,292 --> 02:41:15,542 and to live with us. 2331 02:41:15,709 --> 02:41:19,792 This is the only time my wife came. 2332 02:41:19,959 --> 02:41:22,751 She was about to attend 2333 02:41:22,917 --> 02:41:26,042 a milk distribution for the children of the school. 2334 02:41:26,209 --> 02:41:30,334 I don't know one nation that did what we did in Algeria. 2335 02:41:30,501 --> 02:41:33,501 Build hospitals, roads, schools. 2336 02:41:33,667 --> 02:41:36,417 Imagine, in my husband's village, 2337 02:41:36,584 --> 02:41:40,667 in '57, they didn't know what soap was. The first time they saw it, they ate it. 2338 02:41:40,834 --> 02:41:43,751 This is an indictment against French presence there... 2339 02:41:43,917 --> 02:41:47,459 No, it wasn't against the French presence, 2340 02:41:47,626 --> 02:41:49,792 against the French governments, 2341 02:41:49,959 --> 02:41:51,792 the French administration. 2342 02:41:51,959 --> 02:41:55,376 This is quite interesting, I'd like people to see it. 2343 02:41:55,542 --> 02:41:59,042 We re-did an entire village 2344 02:41:59,209 --> 02:42:02,417 in brick and mortar, when often 2345 02:42:02,584 --> 02:42:05,667 the huts were like this. 2346 02:42:05,834 --> 02:42:09,542 It was something very primitive. 2347 02:42:09,709 --> 02:42:13,126 And how did the ALN incursions 2348 02:42:13,292 --> 02:42:15,792 - manifest itself in your sector? - The ALN would 2349 02:42:15,959 --> 02:42:18,334 come through the north, 2350 02:42:18,501 --> 02:42:21,834 but not always, it would have been too simple, 2351 02:42:22,001 --> 02:42:24,042 and they robbed the villagers. 2352 02:42:24,209 --> 02:42:25,917 Sometimes they attacked us at night. 2353 02:42:26,084 --> 02:42:29,251 They did it a couple of times, not often, because 2354 02:42:29,417 --> 02:42:33,792 our Harkis and our Moghaznis were extraordinary. 2355 02:42:33,959 --> 02:42:38,584 They were faithful by heart and with a weapon as well. 2356 02:42:38,751 --> 02:42:41,501 And they were French in their own right, 2357 02:42:41,667 --> 02:42:45,084 and twice, because they were from a French territory, 2358 02:42:45,251 --> 02:42:47,209 and also by the blood lost, like the Legion. 2359 02:42:47,376 --> 02:42:50,667 Between 1956 and 1962, 2360 02:42:50,834 --> 02:42:57,376 in SAS's, we lost 73 officers, I'm not talking about the wounded. 2361 02:42:57,542 --> 02:43:00,417 Seventy-three officers, 33 sub-officers, 2362 02:43:00,584 --> 02:43:04,292 forty-two civilian attachés, and 612 Moghaznis. 2363 02:43:04,459 --> 02:43:08,792 You can see shooting practice. 2364 02:43:08,959 --> 02:43:12,334 They had to be trained, especially because 2365 02:43:12,501 --> 02:43:17,959 their weapons were all over the place. They had WWI Lebels, rifles seized 2366 02:43:18,126 --> 02:43:22,501 during the boarding of the Athos. 2367 02:43:22,667 --> 02:43:27,626 And there were French weapons, like the latest French machine-gun. 2368 02:43:27,792 --> 02:43:31,584 Did you have to deal with prisoners from the ALN, wounded men? 2369 02:43:31,751 --> 02:43:33,459 Absolutely. In my second SAS, 2370 02:43:33,626 --> 02:43:37,001 among others, I had ALN prisoners. Including a warrant officer, 2371 02:43:37,167 --> 02:43:38,626 from the FLN, 2372 02:43:38,792 --> 02:43:43,376 and I asked him how one becomes one, and he explained. 2373 02:43:43,542 --> 02:43:46,709 You had to kill quite a few Frenchmen before getting there. 2374 02:43:46,876 --> 02:43:49,709 What did you do with the prisoners? 2375 02:43:49,876 --> 02:43:53,917 Well, we went on our mission with them, so they'd show us 2376 02:43:54,084 --> 02:43:57,334 where FLN hideouts were. 2377 02:43:57,501 --> 02:44:00,376 - They did it willingly? - Absolutely. 2378 02:44:01,584 --> 02:44:05,084 Because there was no nationalism, that was not true. 2379 02:44:05,251 --> 02:44:08,751 - An ALN prisoner was easily flipped? - Absolutely. 2380 02:44:08,917 --> 02:44:12,251 In my second SAS, I saw a Harka, 2381 02:44:12,417 --> 02:44:15,834 only composed of former FLN prisoners, 2382 02:44:16,001 --> 02:44:18,542 who were fiercely pro-French, 2383 02:44:18,709 --> 02:44:22,126 and who were great fighters against the FLN. 2384 02:44:22,292 --> 02:44:24,709 Did you have respect for ALN combatants? 2385 02:44:24,876 --> 02:44:29,376 Absolutely. That warrant officer, although he told me how he became one, 2386 02:44:29,542 --> 02:44:31,792 I didn't mistreat him or anything. 2387 02:44:31,959 --> 02:44:35,209 I used him, he came with me on a mission. 2388 02:44:35,376 --> 02:44:38,626 He came back alive, believe me. 2389 02:44:38,792 --> 02:44:43,001 And I delivered him to... at the time, Camp du Maréchal. 2390 02:44:43,167 --> 02:44:47,584 When I left my first village, people... The men, not the women. 2391 02:44:47,751 --> 02:44:50,459 Women would go whoo, that's it. 2392 02:44:50,626 --> 02:44:55,376 But the men ran after my Jeep screaming, because they didn't want me to leave. 2393 02:44:55,542 --> 02:44:58,334 - You had a great rapport with them. - Absolutely. 2394 02:44:59,376 --> 02:45:03,042 I set up a morish café, they hadn't had any for a while, 2395 02:45:03,209 --> 02:45:08,001 I relaunched weaving activities, pottery, 2396 02:45:08,167 --> 02:45:10,792 in the village. It was starting to become... 2397 02:45:10,959 --> 02:45:16,917 not autonomous, but it was beginning to improve on every level. 2398 02:45:17,084 --> 02:45:19,334 And people were asking for it. 2399 02:45:19,501 --> 02:45:22,626 Were you tempted to go back? 2400 02:45:22,792 --> 02:45:25,209 Yes, I was asked to. 2401 02:45:25,376 --> 02:45:29,292 They were giving me the most beautiful SAS 2402 02:45:29,459 --> 02:45:31,084 east of my position, which was great. 2403 02:45:31,251 --> 02:45:35,376 The colonel strongly asked me 2404 02:45:35,542 --> 02:45:37,917 to stay in SAS's 2405 02:45:38,084 --> 02:45:42,417 since I was interested and successful across the board. 2406 02:45:42,584 --> 02:45:48,584 I answered, "Sir, will Algeria stay French?" 2407 02:45:48,751 --> 02:45:53,417 That's when he lowered his head and didn't answer. 2408 02:45:53,584 --> 02:45:57,542 The conversation ended on that silence. 2409 02:45:57,709 --> 02:46:00,876 - How did it go with Pieds-Noirs? - Badly. 2410 02:46:01,042 --> 02:46:04,959 We couldn't stand them. 2411 02:46:05,126 --> 02:46:06,751 Couldn't stand them. 2412 02:46:09,376 --> 02:46:13,626 We were there because of them. 2413 02:46:13,792 --> 02:46:16,501 A very good relationship. I could relate 2414 02:46:16,667 --> 02:46:20,084 to these people, their way of life. 2415 02:46:20,251 --> 02:46:23,792 Well, if you spent too much time with their daughters, 2416 02:46:23,959 --> 02:46:26,542 they wanted to make you marry them. 2417 02:46:27,667 --> 02:46:30,501 But apart from that, the relationship was great. 2418 02:46:30,667 --> 02:46:33,876 They were happy you were there, obviously. 2419 02:46:36,876 --> 02:46:38,251 Yes... 2420 02:46:38,417 --> 02:46:42,042 Yes, they were happy, but not so much towards the end. 2421 02:46:42,209 --> 02:46:45,626 Because when they felt we were getting out of there, 2422 02:46:45,792 --> 02:46:50,001 they didn't like draftees so much. 2423 02:46:50,167 --> 02:46:56,251 The colons enjoyed inviting, on Sundays mostly, 2424 02:46:56,417 --> 02:47:02,251 the officers, the young officers we were, to maybe marry off their daughters. 2425 02:47:02,417 --> 02:47:05,626 But we'd meet at the church choir, 2426 02:47:05,792 --> 02:47:09,709 on Sundays, and they invited us to lunch. 2427 02:47:09,876 --> 02:47:13,751 Saturday and Sunday we'd go on patrols, 2428 02:47:13,917 --> 02:47:17,251 so the Europeans could ski 2429 02:47:18,501 --> 02:47:24,126 on the mountain. There was a ski slope behind 2430 02:47:24,292 --> 02:47:28,167 the air post, 2431 02:47:28,334 --> 02:47:32,501 and we provided protection while the Europeans skied. 2432 02:47:32,667 --> 02:47:34,167 There were all types of colons. 2433 02:47:34,334 --> 02:47:39,542 There were simple workers, who even lived humbly, 2434 02:47:39,709 --> 02:47:44,792 and there were rich ones, some very rich. 2435 02:47:44,959 --> 02:47:47,084 I was in a... 2436 02:47:47,251 --> 02:47:50,126 It was probably around Mila, I don't remember the name, 2437 02:47:50,292 --> 02:47:53,751 we watched a farm for a couple of weeks. 2438 02:47:53,917 --> 02:47:56,667 I don't remember the name, 10,000 acres. 2439 02:47:56,834 --> 02:48:00,042 In September, we would watch 2440 02:48:00,209 --> 02:48:04,626 the vineyards while the Arabs harvested the grapes. 2441 02:48:04,792 --> 02:48:06,792 And you. 2442 02:48:06,959 --> 02:48:10,292 As a French farmer, how did you feel about these properties? 2443 02:48:10,459 --> 02:48:12,834 It was completely different from here 2444 02:48:13,001 --> 02:48:15,876 because they had thousands of acres 2445 02:48:16,042 --> 02:48:18,459 while we had a few acres. 2446 02:48:18,626 --> 02:48:20,584 I was hospitalized in Blida. 2447 02:48:20,751 --> 02:48:23,959 And I found out that the maintenance staff, 2448 02:48:24,126 --> 02:48:27,876 the cleaning, the cleaning ladies were Pieds-Noirs. 2449 02:48:28,042 --> 02:48:33,542 They were not only people who were in the papers with big properties, 2450 02:48:33,709 --> 02:48:36,584 they were humble people. 2451 02:48:36,751 --> 02:48:39,501 A population worth... 2452 02:48:40,876 --> 02:48:42,417 to fight for I think. 2453 02:48:42,584 --> 02:48:45,417 They had the right to live in a country they'd made, 2454 02:48:45,584 --> 02:48:51,584 cities they had built. The environment that was theirs. 2455 02:48:51,751 --> 02:48:56,459 We didn't have the same... If I can say-- It's not politics... 2456 02:48:56,626 --> 02:49:00,417 And I was young, I didn't really get politics, but there was friction. 2457 02:49:00,584 --> 02:49:04,542 Because we complained, and all they said was, 2458 02:49:04,709 --> 02:49:08,084 "In '45, we came, or in '44. 2459 02:49:08,251 --> 02:49:13,251 We gave you a hand," to free us here. 2460 02:49:13,417 --> 02:49:16,376 I was little, but I remember that war too, 2461 02:49:16,542 --> 02:49:18,751 I experienced it here as a kid. 2462 02:49:46,542 --> 02:49:50,459 Did you witness abuse committed by the French Army? 2463 02:49:50,626 --> 02:49:53,917 It depended on who was commanding the group. 2464 02:49:54,084 --> 02:49:59,667 It was usually a sub-officer, even a lieutenant. 2465 02:49:59,834 --> 02:50:02,167 Some did it. 2466 02:50:02,334 --> 02:50:06,584 As professionals, meaning... 2467 02:50:06,751 --> 02:50:10,167 asking people to be quiet, to do what they were asked. 2468 02:50:10,334 --> 02:50:12,792 And others, on the other hand, 2469 02:50:14,126 --> 02:50:16,251 went seriously too far. 2470 02:50:16,417 --> 02:50:20,334 But the most common thing was gratuitous violence 2471 02:50:20,501 --> 02:50:23,834 during patrols or searches. 2472 02:50:24,001 --> 02:50:29,501 Because, of course, when you come while people are sleeping, 2473 02:50:29,667 --> 02:50:32,334 you can't say the welcome was warm. 2474 02:50:32,501 --> 02:50:38,709 And sometimes, especially with women, 2475 02:50:38,876 --> 02:50:42,126 it didn't go smoothly. 2476 02:50:42,292 --> 02:50:44,709 I didn't witness scenes 2477 02:50:44,876 --> 02:50:48,626 where it came to rape, but you can't exclude it. 2478 02:50:48,792 --> 02:50:50,626 Some, uh... 2479 02:50:52,917 --> 02:50:58,959 talked about having had women, about having raped women. 2480 02:50:59,126 --> 02:51:03,626 And believe me, it wasn't fun for the one who stayed on site, 2481 02:51:03,792 --> 02:51:06,751 not to have participated. 2482 02:51:06,917 --> 02:51:10,751 But I was terribly shocked, and I saw an opportunity to talk about it 2483 02:51:10,917 --> 02:51:12,917 with my mates 2484 02:51:13,084 --> 02:51:17,459 who were the closest to me in my tent, 2485 02:51:17,626 --> 02:51:20,542 and make the comment that appeared normal to me, 2486 02:51:20,709 --> 02:51:24,959 and today as well, 2487 02:51:26,251 --> 02:51:29,167 that you couldn't act surprised if there was 2488 02:51:29,334 --> 02:51:34,001 a retaliation against us from members of the FLN. 2489 02:51:34,167 --> 02:51:37,251 We went on a mission, we arrived in the village. 2490 02:51:37,417 --> 02:51:43,251 We had to take the women, the elderly, out of the huts. 2491 02:51:43,417 --> 02:51:47,792 And there were always special cases. Some guys took out 2492 02:51:47,959 --> 02:51:52,459 the elderly and the women hitting them with their guns. 2493 02:51:52,626 --> 02:51:57,251 - Did it happen frequently? - Frequently, but not always. 2494 02:51:57,417 --> 02:52:00,751 There were always a bunch of guys who were against that, 2495 02:52:00,917 --> 02:52:04,251 so we stopped the circus, but otherwise, it did happen. 2496 02:52:04,417 --> 02:52:08,417 And when you witnessed violence, did you take action? 2497 02:52:08,584 --> 02:52:13,084 Well... We didn't know what to say. 2498 02:52:13,251 --> 02:52:15,251 Sometimes we'd say, "Take it easy." 2499 02:52:15,417 --> 02:52:18,542 What could we do? Complain? 2500 02:52:18,709 --> 02:52:22,084 It wouldn't have changed anything. 2501 02:52:23,501 --> 02:52:25,751 I tried to do what I could, 2502 02:52:25,917 --> 02:52:30,167 I was lucky enough to be aware. 2503 02:52:30,334 --> 02:52:34,876 During patrols, I was always in front. 2504 02:52:35,042 --> 02:52:39,251 Maybe I'm just easing my conscience, 2505 02:52:39,417 --> 02:52:43,751 but when we arrived in the woods, kids ran because they were scared. 2506 02:52:43,917 --> 02:52:47,751 And I stopped mates from firing. 2507 02:52:47,917 --> 02:52:50,209 I told them, "Don't you see they are kids?" 2508 02:52:50,376 --> 02:52:51,584 That happened to me. 2509 02:52:51,751 --> 02:52:54,584 I had a deputy, a company commander, a sergeant. 2510 02:52:54,751 --> 02:53:00,209 He had a high school degree, but he was huge and crazy. 2511 02:53:00,376 --> 02:53:07,042 The guy always had pliers in his pocket, 2512 02:53:07,209 --> 02:53:12,501 and as soon as found a Fell during a skirmish, 2513 02:53:12,667 --> 02:53:16,292 he specialized in gold teeth. He would collect gold teeth. 2514 02:53:16,459 --> 02:53:19,126 I couldn't stand that. 2515 02:53:19,292 --> 02:53:21,792 It's the only time I really put my foot down. 2516 02:53:21,959 --> 02:53:24,834 When we arrived at the end of the road, 2517 02:53:25,001 --> 02:53:30,209 Fells would throw grenades at us, 2518 02:53:30,376 --> 02:53:32,126 in the half-track. 2519 02:53:33,292 --> 02:53:35,959 And at that moment, we... 2520 02:53:36,126 --> 02:53:39,542 There were one or two prisoners, 2521 02:53:39,709 --> 02:53:42,584 but the guys didn't have time to take them as prisoners. 2522 02:53:42,751 --> 02:53:48,417 Because some killed them right away, there was no time to get them to speak. 2523 02:53:50,917 --> 02:53:54,292 - Could you have committed such an act? - Huh? 2524 02:53:54,459 --> 02:53:58,584 In that kind of mission, could you have committed such an act? 2525 02:53:58,751 --> 02:54:00,834 It was not in my... 2526 02:54:01,001 --> 02:54:02,292 It wasn't my thing. 2527 02:54:02,459 --> 02:54:05,584 I wasn't that angry. 2528 02:54:05,751 --> 02:54:09,209 During big missions, I saw huts burning indeed. 2529 02:54:09,376 --> 02:54:12,417 I guess it was an oversight. 2530 02:54:13,709 --> 02:54:17,542 But identifying who set them on fire was very hard. 2531 02:54:17,709 --> 02:54:21,084 But if you want, yes, I saw that. 2532 02:54:21,251 --> 02:54:25,751 - Sometimes we left burning huts behind. - Were you shocked at the time? 2533 02:54:27,042 --> 02:54:28,792 No, no, no. 2534 02:54:28,959 --> 02:54:32,292 I admit it. It didn't shock me, because I was committed 2535 02:54:33,501 --> 02:54:38,126 to the situation. I regretted it, but I didn't think about it. 2536 02:54:38,292 --> 02:54:44,542 Everything that was in an operation zone was in a forbidden zone. 2537 02:54:44,709 --> 02:54:50,376 Everything there, cattle, men, and huts, everything was burnt down. 2538 02:54:50,542 --> 02:54:53,126 - Men too? - They were warned. 2539 02:54:53,292 --> 02:54:55,167 Those were forbidden zones. 2540 02:54:55,334 --> 02:55:00,459 - Any person... - Anyone there was a Fellagha. 2541 02:55:00,626 --> 02:55:02,376 They were shot. 2542 02:55:03,626 --> 02:55:07,584 I didn't see people being shot, but they must have been, 2543 02:55:07,751 --> 02:55:10,001 since they were not supposed to be there. 2544 02:55:10,167 --> 02:55:14,876 And if they were there, they had a weapon. 2545 02:55:15,042 --> 02:55:18,751 In '60, in December, 2546 02:55:18,917 --> 02:55:24,542 we had two police 4x4s 2547 02:55:24,709 --> 02:55:31,042 that were machine-gunned, and no one survived in a pass. 2548 02:55:31,209 --> 02:55:35,167 And the next day, the Green Berets carried out an operation mission 2549 02:55:35,334 --> 02:55:37,876 and destroyed everything in their path. 2550 02:55:38,042 --> 02:55:40,501 There were a dozen huts, you see. 2551 02:55:40,667 --> 02:55:43,042 And inside. 2552 02:55:43,209 --> 02:55:46,501 Either they burnt them down 2553 02:55:46,667 --> 02:55:49,084 or they were completely gutted. 2554 02:55:49,251 --> 02:55:52,126 There was no life left, not even a dog. 2555 02:55:54,876 --> 02:55:57,834 And what happened to the population? 2556 02:55:58,001 --> 02:56:01,209 The population was always gunned down. 2557 02:56:01,376 --> 02:56:03,167 There was no forgiveness. 2558 02:56:03,334 --> 02:56:07,292 After the Green Berets, everything was destroyed. 2559 02:56:07,459 --> 02:56:12,834 - And you saw the bodies? - Yes, of course. Yes. 2560 02:56:13,001 --> 02:56:16,251 - When you came, the bodies were still... - Yes. 2561 02:56:16,417 --> 02:56:20,292 - Women, children... - Yes, everything. 2562 02:56:21,834 --> 02:56:23,459 They even... 2563 02:56:23,626 --> 02:56:25,959 Sometime later, they... 2564 02:56:26,126 --> 02:56:28,209 I don't know if they got a tip, 2565 02:56:28,376 --> 02:56:31,292 they did a napalm mission with the chopper. 2566 02:56:31,459 --> 02:56:33,792 They shouldn't have, because it was forbidden. 2567 02:56:33,959 --> 02:56:39,042 Did you see abuse, torture, committed by the FLN? 2568 02:56:39,209 --> 02:56:44,501 Yes, of course. In the beginning, when I was near the Tunisian border, 2569 02:56:44,667 --> 02:56:47,667 I was told, but I think it was true, 2570 02:56:47,834 --> 02:56:51,126 because the witnesses had seen it, 2571 02:56:51,292 --> 02:56:55,542 there had been acts of violence 2572 02:56:55,709 --> 02:56:59,042 on French soldiers that were found dead, 2573 02:56:59,209 --> 02:57:01,167 emasculated, etc. 2574 02:57:01,334 --> 02:57:05,542 In the Karata gorges, 2575 02:57:05,709 --> 02:57:08,626 we got there by truck, we found one of our trucks, 2576 02:57:08,792 --> 02:57:11,292 they were due for discharge. 2577 02:57:11,459 --> 02:57:13,667 People that were our age, 2578 02:57:13,834 --> 02:57:18,959 they were discharged, because they were married, they left two months before us. 2579 02:57:19,126 --> 02:57:24,501 And these guys had been stopped, and we found them with their parts cut, 2580 02:57:24,667 --> 02:57:29,292 in their mouths, open belly filled with stones, facing Mecca. 2581 02:57:29,459 --> 02:57:31,167 Twenty-two of our guys. 2582 02:57:31,334 --> 02:57:35,167 - You saw that? - I saw that with my own eyes. 2583 02:57:35,334 --> 02:57:39,709 - And... Of course. - I didn't see the killers, but I saw the guys. 2584 02:57:39,876 --> 02:57:43,542 And what did such a sight do on a boy like you? 2585 02:57:47,709 --> 02:57:51,917 At that point, if the killers were found... 2586 02:57:52,084 --> 02:57:54,542 Maybe we wouldn't have done the same, but no mercy. 2587 02:57:54,709 --> 02:57:59,251 They were immediately trapped by a number of well-warmed Fells, 2588 02:57:59,417 --> 02:58:05,792 who cleaned up that section, 2589 02:58:05,959 --> 02:58:08,542 just the squad's reckon elements, 2590 02:58:08,709 --> 02:58:11,209 and ten minutes passed before back-up arrived, 2591 02:58:11,376 --> 02:58:15,334 and indeed, they were undressed, and it was really hard. 2592 02:58:15,501 --> 02:58:17,376 Meaning? 2593 02:58:17,542 --> 02:58:20,709 No, well, emasculated, etc. 2594 02:58:20,876 --> 02:58:25,334 You've seen the picture. The guys... The bodies were naked. 2595 02:58:28,126 --> 02:58:32,167 And in a condition... Not only out of savagery, 2596 02:58:32,334 --> 02:58:34,959 but to stun the imagination and terrorize, I think. 2597 02:58:35,126 --> 02:58:37,917 There were 14 dead in a company. 2598 02:58:38,084 --> 02:58:41,251 In a truck attack. 2599 02:58:41,417 --> 02:58:45,501 They shot the driver, the truck went into the ditch. 2600 02:58:45,667 --> 02:58:49,251 The Fells came and killed everyone, 2601 02:58:49,417 --> 02:58:53,709 they took all the weapons and left. When we arrived 2602 02:58:53,876 --> 02:58:57,834 we were alerted. When we arrived, they were all dead. 2603 02:58:58,001 --> 02:59:01,126 Fourteen of them. 2604 02:59:01,292 --> 02:59:05,792 Guys from the region. From Saint-Siméon-de-Bressieux, La Mure. 2605 02:59:07,709 --> 02:59:13,251 - They were killed... - They shot them in the back of the neck. 2606 02:59:13,417 --> 02:59:17,667 There was no forgiveness. 2607 02:59:18,834 --> 02:59:23,209 We wanted to shoot ourselves before becoming the Fellaghas' prisoners. 2608 02:59:23,376 --> 02:59:24,876 - That was your fear. - Suicide. 2609 02:59:25,042 --> 02:59:29,959 There was that fear. After seeing a number of colons 2610 02:59:30,126 --> 02:59:32,667 with their sex in their mouths and the Kabyle smile. 2611 02:59:32,834 --> 02:59:35,584 - We saw that often. - You saw that? 2612 02:59:35,751 --> 02:59:38,167 Yes, yes. 2613 02:59:38,334 --> 02:59:42,792 And usually, after the few operations we had in the sector, 2614 02:59:42,959 --> 02:59:45,167 when Fellaghas were killed, 2615 02:59:45,334 --> 02:59:47,709 they were brought back, 2616 02:59:47,876 --> 02:59:50,626 put in the Jeep's trailer and exposed on the village's square 2617 02:59:50,792 --> 02:59:53,084 for at least a day. 2618 02:59:53,251 --> 02:59:56,251 But it was not the smartest solution, 2619 02:59:56,417 --> 02:59:58,917 because it amounted to a couple of colons 2620 02:59:59,084 --> 03:00:01,292 found murdered the next day. 2621 03:00:01,459 --> 03:00:04,376 We didn't want to be taken prisoner, even if we had 2622 03:00:04,542 --> 03:00:08,584 to kill ourselves, but not a prisoner, because we'd heard... 2623 03:00:08,751 --> 03:00:12,376 Anyway, for the paratroopers... 2624 03:00:12,542 --> 03:00:16,459 if they found Legionnaires or Troopers, they'd kill them right away. 2625 03:00:17,542 --> 03:00:21,834 Did you see your mates made prisoners and mutilated? 2626 03:00:22,001 --> 03:00:27,542 No, because... 2627 03:00:28,542 --> 03:00:31,626 paratroopers don't leave their dead in the field. 2628 03:00:31,792 --> 03:00:35,001 Either we keep him, or we go get them. 2629 03:00:35,167 --> 03:00:40,126 - How did you react with the 14 bodies? - It was heartbreaking. 2630 03:00:40,292 --> 03:00:44,876 The poor guys who were here 2631 03:00:45,042 --> 03:00:49,626 to pacify, allegedly. 2632 03:00:49,792 --> 03:00:53,876 They died, killed like little rabbits. 2633 03:00:54,042 --> 03:00:56,626 It hurts in the stomach. 2634 03:00:56,792 --> 03:01:00,792 Then some guys were bitter. 2635 03:01:00,959 --> 03:01:04,667 When I saw my guys, the condition they were in, 2636 03:01:04,834 --> 03:01:07,292 I understood better. 2637 03:01:07,459 --> 03:01:11,709 Before seeing this, I was opposed. After, I understood. 2638 03:01:11,876 --> 03:01:15,167 You don't make an omelet without breaking any eggs. 2639 03:01:15,334 --> 03:01:19,292 There was a general mood making it so 2640 03:01:19,459 --> 03:01:23,209 even the people that were the least inclined 2641 03:01:23,376 --> 03:01:27,959 to display that kind of behavior, 2642 03:01:28,126 --> 03:01:31,792 in that atmosphere, 2643 03:01:31,959 --> 03:01:37,459 the sort of psychological influence on people, saying, 2644 03:01:37,626 --> 03:01:39,501 "If... 2645 03:01:39,667 --> 03:01:43,542 if we don't get intelligence, 2646 03:01:43,709 --> 03:01:47,126 French soldiers will die." 2647 03:01:47,292 --> 03:01:49,167 - That argument worked? - Of course. 2648 03:01:49,334 --> 03:01:51,417 Most of the time, it worked. 2649 03:01:51,584 --> 03:01:58,417 A lot of people could justify their actions like that. 2650 03:01:59,751 --> 03:02:05,209 But the most surprising was to find people who... 2651 03:02:08,126 --> 03:02:11,334 who felt pleasure, sadistic pleasure, of course, 2652 03:02:11,501 --> 03:02:13,626 displaying that kind of behavior. 2653 03:02:13,792 --> 03:02:16,876 It was a thrill, in a way. 2654 03:02:17,042 --> 03:02:21,792 And we have to understand that some of these draftees... 2655 03:02:21,959 --> 03:02:24,959 this is such cliché but it's true, 2656 03:02:25,126 --> 03:02:30,501 but coming to Algeria was the time of their life. 2657 03:02:30,667 --> 03:02:33,376 Some had never left their whole. 2658 03:02:33,542 --> 03:02:40,167 I'm thinking about a particular person among the most eager 2659 03:02:40,334 --> 03:02:42,251 for all these atrocities, 2660 03:02:42,417 --> 03:02:46,667 and he was a farm worker from Sarthe. 2661 03:02:46,834 --> 03:02:50,459 He'd taken the train for the first time, the boat, too. 2662 03:02:50,626 --> 03:02:54,501 And now, he lived in a story. 2663 03:02:54,667 --> 03:02:57,959 But it was impossible to talk to him, 2664 03:02:58,126 --> 03:03:01,209 to try and make him understand that, 2665 03:03:01,376 --> 03:03:07,167 in his farm, he wouldn't have abused an animal like he did people. 2666 03:03:07,334 --> 03:03:11,584 - What did you do with ALN prisoners? - They were locked-up. 2667 03:03:11,751 --> 03:03:12,959 In the blockhouse. 2668 03:03:13,709 --> 03:03:14,876 For questioning. 2669 03:03:15,042 --> 03:03:19,334 - Who questioned them? - It was the Second Bureau. 2670 03:03:19,501 --> 03:03:21,167 We were not involved. 2671 03:03:21,334 --> 03:03:25,376 There was always an intelligence officer in the camps. 2672 03:03:25,542 --> 03:03:29,584 From what you knew, was it intense questioning? 2673 03:03:29,751 --> 03:03:35,584 It was tough. We never took part, I tell you. I never saw it. 2674 03:03:35,751 --> 03:03:39,876 - What do you mean by "tough"? - Beatings. 2675 03:03:40,042 --> 03:03:43,584 Blow, the Tucker telephone. 2676 03:03:43,751 --> 03:03:46,126 - You knew about the Tucker telephone? - Yeah. 2677 03:03:46,292 --> 03:03:51,084 - It was frequently used? - Every time there were important guys. 2678 03:03:51,251 --> 03:03:53,959 - Who told you? - On little civilians, 2679 03:03:54,126 --> 03:03:56,709 the guys we caught around, less, 2680 03:03:56,876 --> 03:04:02,251 but as soon they knew they had an important guy from the FLN or other, 2681 03:04:02,417 --> 03:04:03,959 he would get the Tucker telephone. 2682 03:04:04,126 --> 03:04:09,167 - But who told you? - Everyone was aware. 2683 03:04:09,334 --> 03:04:10,584 We knew. 2684 03:04:10,751 --> 03:04:12,459 How did it go? 2685 03:04:14,501 --> 03:04:17,667 - For me? - That scene you mentioned. 2686 03:04:23,126 --> 03:04:24,751 It was in the... 2687 03:04:24,917 --> 03:04:29,709 the command post of where we were. 2688 03:04:33,917 --> 03:04:40,417 We'd found suspects, of course. 2689 03:04:40,584 --> 03:04:45,667 And I wasn't... Because when there were such operations... 2690 03:04:45,834 --> 03:04:48,584 Okay, it wasn't every day, 2691 03:04:48,751 --> 03:04:51,917 maybe that's the reason it stayed with me, 2692 03:04:53,292 --> 03:04:57,751 but some came to get volunteers 2693 03:04:59,042 --> 03:05:02,834 to do that, and they found them, which is the most astonishing. 2694 03:05:03,001 --> 03:05:05,417 - Even among the draftees? - Yeah. 2695 03:05:07,959 --> 03:05:09,876 So... 2696 03:05:11,292 --> 03:05:15,292 Curiosity kind of 2697 03:05:15,459 --> 03:05:17,834 pushed me to try and see something, 2698 03:05:18,001 --> 03:05:21,626 because I wasn't invited to participate. 2699 03:05:21,792 --> 03:05:25,584 And what I saw was what you can imagine. 2700 03:05:25,751 --> 03:05:28,792 People twisting in pain. 2701 03:05:28,959 --> 03:05:32,084 But I didn't stay. 2702 03:05:32,251 --> 03:05:35,709 I was powerless to do anything, 2703 03:05:35,876 --> 03:05:39,126 and I wasn't looking for voyeurism either. 2704 03:05:39,292 --> 03:05:41,126 Well, it happened once. 2705 03:05:41,292 --> 03:05:45,751 To generate psychological terror is... I won't speak about torture, 2706 03:05:45,917 --> 03:05:50,042 because I didn't see it, as a volunteer. 2707 03:05:50,209 --> 03:05:54,584 But the torture was the threat of the next day. "What will happen?" 2708 03:05:54,751 --> 03:05:57,834 Those were only words. 2709 03:05:58,001 --> 03:06:02,376 But words that were scary. 2710 03:06:02,542 --> 03:06:07,501 They didn't know what would happen the next day, what was said... 2711 03:06:07,667 --> 03:06:11,792 You never witnessed abuse committed on a prisoner? 2712 03:06:11,959 --> 03:06:16,126 Direct abuse, no. I can say I didn't see it, 2713 03:06:16,292 --> 03:06:18,834 because those... 2714 03:06:21,042 --> 03:06:23,834 I think torture is relative. 2715 03:06:24,001 --> 03:06:26,251 Blows, yes, I've seen blows, 2716 03:06:26,417 --> 03:06:29,251 - slaps... - Did you give them? 2717 03:06:29,417 --> 03:06:32,001 What... No, I never hit. I wasn't involved. 2718 03:06:32,167 --> 03:06:33,834 People talk a lot about... 2719 03:06:34,001 --> 03:06:35,459 Could you have tortured? 2720 03:06:35,626 --> 03:06:37,667 - I never saw any torture. I tried... - Could you? 2721 03:06:37,834 --> 03:06:41,251 - Excuse-me? - Could you have done it if you had to? 2722 03:06:41,417 --> 03:06:44,751 Answering you today, I have no idea. Maybe if a mate 2723 03:06:44,917 --> 03:06:47,917 had been shot or had his throat was cut, I would have had 2724 03:06:48,084 --> 03:06:49,834 a violent reaction. 2725 03:06:50,001 --> 03:06:53,501 But all the same, what kind of torture? The Tucker telephone, 2726 03:06:53,667 --> 03:06:57,459 with a generator used to broadcast widely, 2727 03:06:57,626 --> 03:07:01,834 we all tried to see how it worked. 2728 03:07:02,001 --> 03:07:04,042 Two electrodes held with the tip of your fingers 2729 03:07:04,209 --> 03:07:06,876 - and a mate turned... - For how long did you try? 2730 03:07:07,042 --> 03:07:09,459 - How long? - How long did you try it? 2731 03:07:09,626 --> 03:07:12,126 Three minutes, but first you have to... 2732 03:07:12,292 --> 03:07:14,459 But how long did the questioning last? 2733 03:07:14,626 --> 03:07:17,626 - The questioning? - Yeah. 2734 03:07:17,792 --> 03:07:22,167 What I saw lasted the entire night, but not the Tucker telephone, 2735 03:07:22,334 --> 03:07:24,917 some milder techniques. 2736 03:07:26,292 --> 03:07:29,667 It was the Kenish brothers. I remember their names, 2737 03:07:29,834 --> 03:07:34,251 officers caught in a hut, they had surrendered. 2738 03:07:34,417 --> 03:07:37,626 Well, it lasted the night. 2739 03:07:37,792 --> 03:07:41,834 The torture session lasted a while. They hanged him by the feet. 2740 03:07:42,001 --> 03:07:47,251 I heard the captain threatening 2741 03:07:47,417 --> 03:07:50,751 to kill him if he didn't talk. 2742 03:07:50,917 --> 03:07:53,251 The reaction... 2743 03:07:53,417 --> 03:07:55,667 You could have at that time, 2744 03:07:55,834 --> 03:08:00,126 you needed courage, we should have had more of it, it wasn't enough. 2745 03:08:00,292 --> 03:08:06,001 We just let a sub-officer know that we didn't sign up for this. 2746 03:08:06,167 --> 03:08:12,584 They went to the captain. It stopped that day, but they took all the men. 2747 03:08:12,751 --> 03:08:19,001 It didn't happen again much on site. Once, in another village, 2748 03:08:19,167 --> 03:08:21,834 but not for long. 2749 03:08:22,001 --> 03:08:24,834 And, of course, when we took the men, 2750 03:08:25,001 --> 03:08:28,167 the women started screaming, following us. 2751 03:08:28,334 --> 03:08:30,876 It was horrible. It lasted... 2752 03:08:32,501 --> 03:08:36,459 several months, I think, about two months. 2753 03:08:38,292 --> 03:08:42,084 A good number of the prisoners were tortured. 2754 03:08:43,209 --> 03:08:47,334 We saw them go by, because the guys on watch 2755 03:08:47,501 --> 03:08:50,501 would go and bring them back. 2756 03:08:50,667 --> 03:08:55,042 A big part, exactly how many... But a big number were tortured. 2757 03:08:55,209 --> 03:08:57,542 How were they when you saw them? 2758 03:08:57,709 --> 03:09:01,417 I went to fetch one myself, 2759 03:09:01,584 --> 03:09:05,876 since I was on watch duty. I found him on the floor, 2760 03:09:07,001 --> 03:09:08,626 in his urine. 2761 03:09:08,792 --> 03:09:12,709 The Tucker telephone was right there, he was still naked... 2762 03:09:15,501 --> 03:09:18,292 Like people who were tortured. 2763 03:09:19,626 --> 03:09:22,709 I brought him back, 2764 03:09:22,876 --> 03:09:27,542 but you could hear the screams... 2765 03:09:27,709 --> 03:09:31,876 day and night, it was day and night. 2766 03:09:33,001 --> 03:09:34,626 - Forgive me... - What can I say? 2767 03:09:34,792 --> 03:09:39,251 What did the re-draftees do? Did some protest? Do something? 2768 03:09:39,417 --> 03:09:44,542 We were... We were without... 2769 03:09:44,709 --> 03:09:48,126 We were not asked to do it, so it was... 2770 03:09:48,292 --> 03:09:52,042 It was... I don't know. 2771 03:09:52,209 --> 03:09:55,376 Did officers try to justify torture? 2772 03:09:55,542 --> 03:09:57,209 They didn't talk about it. 2773 03:09:58,626 --> 03:10:00,251 They didn't talk about it. 2774 03:10:00,417 --> 03:10:04,834 What should we have done? Taken our rifles out to shoot? 2775 03:10:05,001 --> 03:10:07,334 You need a lot of courage do to that. 2776 03:10:07,501 --> 03:10:12,917 I... It stopped, oddly, 2777 03:10:13,084 --> 03:10:17,167 we were told on the night of General Gouraud, 2778 03:10:17,334 --> 03:10:19,459 I think he was in charge of the region. 2779 03:10:19,626 --> 03:10:23,917 And they released everyone. They just kept a few 2780 03:10:24,084 --> 03:10:28,542 who left camp, but most men were freed. 2781 03:10:29,792 --> 03:10:33,001 Did you feel complicit because you didn't do anything? 2782 03:10:33,167 --> 03:10:38,084 Yes. I think those who sent me there made me complicit, yes, indeed. 2783 03:10:38,251 --> 03:10:43,084 Complicit of the torture, of the death of many Algerians. 2784 03:10:43,251 --> 03:10:45,751 And I will never forgive them. 2785 03:10:45,917 --> 03:10:50,209 I'll never forgive them. It was hard for me to vote again for some, 2786 03:10:50,376 --> 03:10:52,459 to tell myself it's the lesser evil. 2787 03:10:52,626 --> 03:10:56,251 I'll always remember when Gouraud walked by me during my watch. 2788 03:10:56,417 --> 03:10:59,126 I nearly told him, "General, we just released people 2789 03:10:59,292 --> 03:11:03,667 who were tortured for months here, how come? Do you agree?" 2790 03:11:03,834 --> 03:11:07,251 I almost told him, I looked at him in the eyes, it happened twice. 2791 03:11:07,417 --> 03:11:11,959 Once, when they tried to force me to be on the firing squad, I didn't want to. 2792 03:11:12,126 --> 03:11:14,876 And that other time. But I didn't have the courage. 2793 03:11:15,042 --> 03:11:17,376 I almost did, but I didn't have the courage. 2794 03:11:17,542 --> 03:11:21,459 I lacked courage, I was complicit, yes. 2795 03:11:21,626 --> 03:11:25,084 And I have a wound that will never go away. 2796 03:11:37,834 --> 03:11:41,042 Through my education and family tradition, I was leaning left, 2797 03:11:41,209 --> 03:11:43,876 because of my parents, I'll admit, who were... 2798 03:11:44,042 --> 03:11:46,542 Let's say... 2799 03:11:46,709 --> 03:11:48,626 They were more on the socialist side... 2800 03:11:48,792 --> 03:11:50,626 So you had hostility toward that war. 2801 03:11:50,792 --> 03:11:54,167 Yes, while being eager, but not gung-ho 2802 03:11:54,334 --> 03:11:57,126 about being involved in that conflict. I would do my job, 2803 03:11:57,292 --> 03:11:59,251 I had a national conscience, 2804 03:11:59,417 --> 03:12:03,167 I had the desire to be an officer since I did higher military preparation, 2805 03:12:03,334 --> 03:12:06,251 so directly left for practical school at Cherchell. 2806 03:12:06,417 --> 03:12:09,167 What was the state of mind in Cherchell? 2807 03:12:09,334 --> 03:12:13,042 That's actually where the transformation gradually took place. 2808 03:12:13,209 --> 03:12:17,376 We were taught by first rate instructors, 2809 03:12:17,542 --> 03:12:21,251 some came from Indochina. 2810 03:12:21,417 --> 03:12:25,751 Others had taken part in law enforcement operations. 2811 03:12:25,917 --> 03:12:27,792 They all had experience. 2812 03:12:27,959 --> 03:12:32,042 In five or six months, 2813 03:12:32,209 --> 03:12:35,251 the guy who had been a student, who wasn't used to lead, 2814 03:12:35,417 --> 03:12:38,667 who didn't know anything, 2815 03:12:38,834 --> 03:12:43,834 they had to change them into guys who were capable of leading 30 guys. 2816 03:12:44,001 --> 03:12:47,251 Of course, it was very physical, 2817 03:12:47,417 --> 03:12:53,709 there wasn't much to eat, there was a lot of learning. 2818 03:12:53,876 --> 03:12:57,667 They introduced us to other things than what I'd learned in France, 2819 03:12:57,834 --> 03:13:00,459 a press that reported what they wanted. 2820 03:13:00,626 --> 03:13:04,251 I feel you were psychologically turned around... 2821 03:13:04,417 --> 03:13:07,417 Turned around, yes. 2822 03:13:07,584 --> 03:13:11,251 I no longer condemn the war. I said something could be done for the people, 2823 03:13:11,417 --> 03:13:14,501 simple people who are here, we need to keep them 2824 03:13:14,667 --> 03:13:19,501 - in the country. - How did you react to the Generals' Coup? 2825 03:13:19,667 --> 03:13:23,959 The school, a big part of it, not all of it, supported the... 2826 03:13:24,126 --> 03:13:25,459 - The Coup. - The Coup. 2827 03:13:25,626 --> 03:13:27,751 - And so did you? - Yeah. 2828 03:13:27,917 --> 03:13:31,209 You would have gone if you had been asked? 2829 03:13:31,376 --> 03:13:32,542 At that point, yes. 2830 03:13:32,709 --> 03:13:35,959 We didn't have any qualms. 2831 03:13:36,126 --> 03:13:40,751 We were prepared, and we certainly would have marched on. 2832 03:13:40,917 --> 03:13:42,084 - Did you... - We didn't... 2833 03:13:42,251 --> 03:13:46,251 Without looking into the consequences. It was spontaneous, but we would have. 2834 03:13:46,417 --> 03:13:48,542 Had you heard De Gaulle's speech? 2835 03:13:48,709 --> 03:13:51,667 Yes. De Gaulle, no. 2836 03:13:52,417 --> 03:13:56,334 This picture was taken on the slopes of... 2837 03:13:56,501 --> 03:13:59,917 on the Babors, a mountain of Lesser Kabylia. 2838 03:14:00,084 --> 03:14:02,584 This was the traditional dress. The djellaba was on, 2839 03:14:02,751 --> 03:14:05,876 but when it was hot, it was just the uniform and the hat. 2840 03:14:06,042 --> 03:14:09,501 The usual dress. We were equipped with Pataugas boots or Rangers. 2841 03:14:09,667 --> 03:14:13,292 Typical weaponry for a section leader, the US rifle, two clips. 2842 03:14:14,042 --> 03:14:17,001 It was in North Africa, on the mountains by Setif 2843 03:14:17,167 --> 03:14:19,084 that I saw the most snow in my entire life. 2844 03:14:19,251 --> 03:14:24,542 I have a radio next to me, I remember his name, Pinot, from Charentes. 2845 03:14:24,709 --> 03:14:28,792 And this is our meal, with our rations, the down jacket, because it's frisky. 2846 03:14:29,876 --> 03:14:32,626 I contacted the Harka, meaning the Harkis, 2847 03:14:32,792 --> 03:14:35,626 who came as company back-up for the company. 2848 03:14:35,792 --> 03:14:39,042 There was a little celebration in my honor. 2849 03:14:39,209 --> 03:14:42,751 Traditional dances, a little meal. 2850 03:14:42,917 --> 03:14:46,959 And at night, my mate tells me, "We're going out, 2851 03:14:47,126 --> 03:14:49,459 we're setting up an ambush." I left with... 2852 03:14:49,626 --> 03:14:52,084 - On your first day? - The same night. 2853 03:14:52,251 --> 03:14:55,667 I was like Tartarin of Tarascon, in hindsight, 2854 03:14:55,834 --> 03:15:00,584 and we just took off. I was in the middle... 2855 03:15:00,751 --> 03:15:04,959 It was hard, because people walked very fast. I was back from leave. 2856 03:15:05,126 --> 03:15:10,042 And I felt I was completely lost. I thought, "If I have to do that tomorrow, 2857 03:15:10,209 --> 03:15:13,042 how will I do it?" Because of a compass, a map. 2858 03:15:13,209 --> 03:15:16,751 We walked, set up our ambush as usual, 2859 03:15:16,917 --> 03:15:21,542 we stayed part of the night and came back in the morning. 2860 03:15:22,709 --> 03:15:26,709 And I asked, because he was leaving the next day, "How do you do it?" 2861 03:15:26,876 --> 03:15:30,334 He said, "I don't know the field that well, 2862 03:15:30,501 --> 03:15:32,459 but Harkis are from this /and, they're locals. ” 2863 03:15:32,626 --> 03:15:34,834 They were our guides. 2864 03:15:35,001 --> 03:15:38,251 The resource people like that represent. They owned the landscape. 2865 03:15:38,417 --> 03:15:42,042 They knew thalwegs, they knew where to go, the special spots. 2866 03:15:42,209 --> 03:15:46,084 I mean, it was 50% of the result we could get. 2867 03:15:46,251 --> 03:15:49,459 Why were the Harkis with us? 2868 03:15:49,626 --> 03:15:52,876 Some for money, some came for the army. 2869 03:15:53,042 --> 03:15:56,667 But many of them, the former Fells, 2870 03:15:56,834 --> 03:15:59,751 we kind of forced them to come with us. 2871 03:15:59,917 --> 03:16:03,667 We brainwashed them, we pushed for them to come. 2872 03:16:03,834 --> 03:16:08,292 I didn't experience it, but the psychological action 2873 03:16:08,459 --> 03:16:12,001 needed to take a bodyguard for Amirouche 2874 03:16:12,167 --> 03:16:15,334 and make him an anti-Fellagha. You had to compromise him, 2875 03:16:15,501 --> 03:16:20,626 he had to do something despicable to the Fells for us to trust him. 2876 03:16:21,751 --> 03:16:24,042 And we abandoned those guys. 2877 03:16:24,209 --> 03:16:28,042 But there had been a commitment on our part. 2878 03:16:28,209 --> 03:16:33,459 And when you read, "I'm going to be harsh," the bullshit written 2879 03:16:33,626 --> 03:16:38,501 by General Buis lately, saying Harkis were not real soldiers. 2880 03:16:38,667 --> 03:16:40,959 That guy never commanded Harkis. 2881 03:16:41,126 --> 03:16:45,751 He didn't see them on the battlefield. He never led any of them. 2882 03:16:45,917 --> 03:16:50,126 For him, a soldier is a guy at attention ten yards away. 2883 03:16:50,292 --> 03:16:52,751 He doesn't fight. 2884 03:16:52,917 --> 03:16:56,459 Harkis fought, there were not at attention. 2885 03:16:56,626 --> 03:16:58,709 It's disgusting what we did to them. 2886 03:16:59,876 --> 03:17:02,459 I will never forget the months, 2887 03:17:02,626 --> 03:17:05,834 the years I spent with these people, because... 2888 03:17:07,209 --> 03:17:11,542 I gave them my trust, they gave us theirs. 2889 03:17:11,709 --> 03:17:17,959 And I... An event... Before this period of abandonment, 2890 03:17:18,126 --> 03:17:20,751 that's what it was... 2891 03:17:20,917 --> 03:17:22,709 We received instructions 2892 03:17:22,876 --> 03:17:26,167 asking that when he went out with Harkis, 2893 03:17:26,334 --> 03:17:29,251 we had a maximum of Europeans 2894 03:17:29,417 --> 03:17:32,876 to get rid of automatic rifles, the machine guns. 2895 03:17:33,042 --> 03:17:37,376 There was a risk of rebellion or of a change of behavior. 2896 03:17:37,542 --> 03:17:40,251 It's very hard when you've been living with people 2897 03:17:40,417 --> 03:17:42,542 and you have to tell them, "I no longer trust you, 2898 03:17:42,709 --> 03:17:46,667 give me back... And I'm excluding you." 2899 03:17:46,834 --> 03:17:50,001 I think all my mates, not just me, kept doing what we did before, 2900 03:17:50,167 --> 03:17:54,042 and we're here, my mates are here. And I think 2901 03:17:54,209 --> 03:17:58,376 it made a difference, this vote of confidence. 2902 03:17:58,542 --> 03:18:00,042 I always trusted them. 2903 03:18:00,209 --> 03:18:03,834 How did you take the news of the ceasefire? 2904 03:18:04,001 --> 03:18:08,709 I was really frustrated. 2905 03:18:11,917 --> 03:18:16,917 The army did a good job. I'm not here for propaganda, 2906 03:18:17,084 --> 03:18:22,042 but we had teachers, nurses, we helped the population. 2907 03:18:22,209 --> 03:18:28,251 The ceasefire went against what I believed. 2908 03:18:28,417 --> 03:18:31,751 Do you remember that day, March 19th, 1962? 2909 03:18:31,917 --> 03:18:36,251 Absolutely. I'd just got the Harka. 2910 03:18:36,417 --> 03:18:43,126 I left on ceasefire night, I left on an ambush alone. 2911 03:18:43,292 --> 03:18:46,084 For one last ambush, 2912 03:18:46,251 --> 03:18:50,251 not to kill, but it was the last one, we turned a page. 2913 03:18:50,417 --> 03:18:53,251 You could have been killed on the night of the ceasefire. 2914 03:18:53,417 --> 03:18:55,251 Yes, but I mean... 2915 03:18:55,417 --> 03:19:01,667 You have to think about the context. You don't think about dying at 22. 2916 03:19:01,834 --> 03:19:06,459 We didn't find out on the day. We found out much later. 2917 03:19:06,626 --> 03:19:10,459 Because news came with a delay. 2918 03:19:10,626 --> 03:19:13,667 We didn't have a radio, no newspapers, nothing. We were in the... 2919 03:19:13,834 --> 03:19:15,667 No one in command told you the war was over? 2920 03:19:15,834 --> 03:19:19,001 No, no, no. No, no. We found out long after that. 2921 03:19:19,167 --> 03:19:23,959 Because during that time, we kept operating as military... 2922 03:19:24,126 --> 03:19:26,667 - You kept doing missions? - Yes, totally. 2923 03:19:36,126 --> 03:19:39,876 MARCH 19, 1962 STREET 2924 03:19:49,209 --> 03:19:50,501 Died for France. 2925 03:19:57,834 --> 03:20:01,251 In your facility's bathrooms, you have a strange plaque. 2926 03:20:01,417 --> 03:20:03,042 It's not strange. 2927 03:20:03,209 --> 03:20:08,542 The plaque is about March 19th. March 19th belongs to the toilet, 2928 03:20:08,709 --> 03:20:12,251 because it wasn't the end of combat, 2929 03:20:12,417 --> 03:20:14,292 but the intensification. 2930 03:20:14,459 --> 03:20:17,751 After each war, there were always more casualties. 2931 03:20:17,917 --> 03:20:21,667 - Several months later, even years later. - So why use March 19th 2932 03:20:21,834 --> 03:20:23,167 as the end of the war? 2933 03:20:23,334 --> 03:20:28,042 It's the only official date for the end of combat in Algeria. 2934 03:20:28,209 --> 03:20:33,667 When I first heard about the ceasefire, I didn't take it well, honestly. 2935 03:20:34,917 --> 03:20:37,667 I always specify, 2936 03:20:37,834 --> 03:20:39,834 that I was in the country. 2937 03:20:40,001 --> 03:20:42,626 I don't judge the cities, 2938 03:20:42,792 --> 03:20:44,542 that maybe were completely different. 2939 03:20:44,709 --> 03:20:49,167 In the country, villagers 2940 03:20:49,334 --> 03:20:51,751 were relatively very attached to us. 2941 03:20:52,876 --> 03:20:55,126 We had quite a few Harkis with us. 2942 03:20:55,292 --> 03:21:00,251 But we knew it was simple for them. Two things: they either came with us 2943 03:21:00,417 --> 03:21:03,126 or they would end up with their throats cut. 2944 03:21:03,292 --> 03:21:07,167 We had the Harka leader 2945 03:21:07,334 --> 03:21:09,876 who was nicknamed "Jackal." 2946 03:21:10,042 --> 03:21:16,334 One night, during a patrol, they took him and we never heard from him again. 2947 03:21:16,501 --> 03:21:18,792 He was probably executed somewhere. 2948 03:21:18,959 --> 03:21:22,042 It was really painful. 2949 03:21:22,209 --> 03:21:24,292 I had 80 Harkis, 2950 03:21:26,084 --> 03:21:30,584 including three former members of Amirouche's detail, both sergeants. 2951 03:21:34,001 --> 03:21:39,459 I replaced the lieutenant in charge. 2952 03:21:39,626 --> 03:21:45,584 I arrived before the ceasefire. I stayed three or four months with them. 2953 03:21:46,751 --> 03:21:52,709 There was something unforgivable for me. 2954 03:21:52,876 --> 03:21:56,334 We offered them a choice between a couple of solutions. 2955 03:21:56,501 --> 03:22:00,626 The first was to come home with us, enlist in the army, 2956 03:22:00,792 --> 03:22:04,542 but we wouldn't take the families. 2957 03:22:04,709 --> 03:22:09,501 Family in Kabylia... Kabylia is a very tribal region, 2958 03:22:09,667 --> 03:22:15,751 the region is very mountainous, family is very important for the men. 2959 03:22:15,917 --> 03:22:20,876 They could enlist, while we wouldn't "repatriate" their families. 2960 03:22:21,042 --> 03:22:23,917 Three chose this solution. 2961 03:22:24,084 --> 03:22:28,834 The second one was money, they would receive a bonus and stay. 2962 03:22:29,001 --> 03:22:34,709 We found one, four or five months in Algiers 2963 03:22:34,876 --> 03:22:41,626 in very bad shape, and he told us many others had been slaughtered. 2964 03:22:41,792 --> 03:22:45,959 We were emotionally involved, 2965 03:22:46,126 --> 03:22:50,542 we felt we were abandoning everything and ushering a massacre. 2966 03:22:50,709 --> 03:22:55,334 And he told me, "It's over." We were summoned 2967 03:22:55,501 --> 03:22:58,667 in Setif, to the citadel, and we came back 2968 03:22:58,834 --> 03:23:01,042 and then... 2969 03:23:01,209 --> 03:23:03,917 Well... 2970 03:23:04,084 --> 03:23:09,042 It was a very tough experience. We bawled. 2971 03:23:09,209 --> 03:23:16,084 They said, "You're leaving." The company was replaced by an infantry section. 2972 03:23:16,251 --> 03:23:22,376 We had to say goodbye. The Harkis could enlist and leave their families behind. 2973 03:23:22,542 --> 03:23:26,501 I experienced it... 2974 03:23:26,667 --> 03:23:31,667 Emotionally... It was awful. 2975 03:23:31,834 --> 03:23:35,376 And then, our... We had them surrender their weapons. 2976 03:23:35,542 --> 03:23:38,251 In the end all trust was gone. 2977 03:23:38,417 --> 03:23:41,751 I had a crate of grenades under my bed. 2978 03:23:42,959 --> 03:23:49,251 They could only redeem themselves with a last-minute defection. 2979 03:23:49,417 --> 03:23:51,334 So you feared your Harkis? 2980 03:23:51,501 --> 03:23:55,834 I feared my Harkis. I didn't fear them but, in the end, 2981 03:23:56,001 --> 03:23:59,751 I wasn't sure of what they could do. It wasn't fear. 2982 03:24:02,501 --> 03:24:05,167 They could just leave, it's true. 2983 03:24:05,334 --> 03:24:08,334 We didn't have any desertions at the end. 2984 03:24:08,501 --> 03:24:11,417 - Did you feel bad about leaving then? - Pardon? 2985 03:24:11,584 --> 03:24:16,001 - Did you feel bad about leaving then? - At the time, yes. 2986 03:24:18,459 --> 03:24:20,376 It was a disgrace. 2987 03:24:21,917 --> 03:24:24,084 - Yes, I feel bad. - You see it as a disgrace? 2988 03:24:24,251 --> 03:24:28,959 Yes. It was cowardice. 2989 03:24:29,126 --> 03:24:31,542 I was young, well, a little older than the others, 2990 03:24:31,709 --> 03:24:34,376 I was 24-25. 2991 03:24:34,542 --> 03:24:36,959 But I felt it was cowardice. 2992 03:24:37,126 --> 03:24:40,459 It's very hard, no question about it. 2993 03:24:40,626 --> 03:24:45,001 It's something that I still carry. 2994 03:24:46,626 --> 03:24:51,417 I put up French Algeria posters, "Go with De Gaulle", etc., 2995 03:24:51,584 --> 03:24:54,084 just find the posters of the time. 2996 03:24:54,251 --> 03:24:58,542 I mean, I never voted De Gaulle again. Impossible. 2997 03:25:04,501 --> 03:25:09,042 Terrorism and OAS 2998 03:25:09,209 --> 03:25:13,834 News of the time, all clear 2999 03:25:14,001 --> 03:25:18,126 The truth about those years 3000 03:25:18,292 --> 03:25:24,167 Is still taboo 3001 03:25:24,334 --> 03:25:27,917 I prefer to stay 3002 03:25:28,084 --> 03:25:34,959 Awake When I have nightmares, I see burning 3003 03:25:35,126 --> 03:25:39,167 The fire of embers Kindles the hate 3004 03:25:39,334 --> 03:25:44,334 That was asleep in us 3005 03:25:44,501 --> 03:25:47,459 Everyone in the same boat 3006 03:25:47,626 --> 03:25:53,751 I prefer saboteurs 3007 03:25:53,917 --> 03:25:56,126 Algeria is beautiful 3008 03:25:56,292 --> 03:26:02,667 Yes, but seen from the Sacré-Coeur 3009 03:26:02,834 --> 03:26:05,917 Sixty, sixty-two 3010 03:26:06,084 --> 03:26:11,834 It kind of scares me 3011 03:26:12,001 --> 03:26:15,417 Sixty, sixty-two 3012 03:26:15,584 --> 03:26:21,167 There were not only rockers... 3013 03:26:21,334 --> 03:26:25,126 For two weeks, it didn't last long, 3014 03:26:25,292 --> 03:26:28,667 I had a section of Europeans, 3015 03:26:28,834 --> 03:26:32,417 and we were guards for the General, 3016 03:26:32,584 --> 03:26:36,042 and we went from Harkis 3017 03:26:36,209 --> 03:26:41,667 to anti-OAS, from one day to the next. It couldn't work. 3018 03:26:41,834 --> 03:26:44,167 There were mishaps. 3019 03:26:44,334 --> 03:26:46,251 What does anti-OAS mean? 3020 03:26:46,417 --> 03:26:51,626 We joined the police in roundups, really roundups. 3021 03:26:51,792 --> 03:26:58,584 And we took people to a camp, 20 or 30 clicks from Algiers. 3022 03:26:58,751 --> 03:27:01,209 - Europeans were rounded up? - Europeans, yes. 3023 03:27:01,376 --> 03:27:04,959 And we had an incident 3024 03:27:05,126 --> 03:27:11,334 with another sub-lieutenant who was with me in the company. 3025 03:27:11,501 --> 03:27:15,834 The OAS fired at the guards, 3026 03:27:16,001 --> 03:27:19,459 and we didn't defend the guardsmen. 3027 03:27:19,626 --> 03:27:22,042 - You saw them take fire? - Right. 3028 03:27:22,209 --> 03:27:24,251 - And you didn't move? - Not at all. 3029 03:27:24,417 --> 03:27:27,667 - You were on the OAS's side? - Absolutely. 3030 03:27:27,834 --> 03:27:30,042 Not the OAS, I mean. 3031 03:27:30,209 --> 03:27:34,126 Did you understand the officers who joined the OAS? 3032 03:27:34,292 --> 03:27:38,751 Absolutely. They were people of honor. 3033 03:27:38,917 --> 03:27:41,167 - Could you have done it? - I could have. 3034 03:27:41,334 --> 03:27:47,584 I admit I was not much of a Gaullist in the end. 3035 03:27:47,751 --> 03:27:52,542 The OAS shot draftees, they killed soldiers. 3036 03:27:52,709 --> 03:27:57,042 No. But Pieds-Noirs likes the OAS. 3037 03:27:57,209 --> 03:27:59,667 It makes sense. 3038 03:27:59,834 --> 03:28:06,042 They defended their territory, because I say that Algeria was the land 3039 03:28:06,209 --> 03:28:07,751 of Pieds-Noirs, not ours. 3040 03:28:07,917 --> 03:28:10,709 It was crazy at the time. 3041 03:28:13,042 --> 03:28:18,042 The OAS's strategy consisting 3042 03:28:18,209 --> 03:28:21,459 of encouraging massacres by Arabs 3043 03:28:21,626 --> 03:28:27,167 against Europeans, so that the army would turn 3044 03:28:27,334 --> 03:28:31,917 against the Arabs, to ultimately sabotage the ceasefire. 3045 03:28:32,084 --> 03:28:34,667 But this strategy, 3046 03:28:34,834 --> 03:28:38,459 I realized after the fact, after I thought about it, 3047 03:28:38,626 --> 03:28:42,251 in the moment, it's about action, you don't really think... 3048 03:28:42,417 --> 03:28:45,626 What did you think about these attacks? 3049 03:28:45,792 --> 03:28:47,751 It was horrible. 3050 03:28:47,917 --> 03:28:51,876 There a scene I still remember... 3051 03:28:54,084 --> 03:29:00,042 The OAS had locked Arabs in their neighborhood, 3052 03:29:00,209 --> 03:29:04,751 and there was an announcement. 3053 03:29:04,917 --> 03:29:10,709 The Arabs were forbidden to go to European districts. 3054 03:29:12,417 --> 03:29:17,834 And a 50 to 60-year-old Arab went out 3055 03:29:18,001 --> 03:29:22,459 to get food, obviously, and he was 3056 03:29:22,626 --> 03:29:25,084 gunned down by a kid right in front of us. 3057 03:29:26,376 --> 03:29:32,834 Point blank, his brains splattered on the bag of meat. 3058 03:29:33,001 --> 03:29:37,042 We got close to him, a police truck arrived, 3059 03:29:37,209 --> 03:29:40,584 or guards, they arrived when I did. 3060 03:29:40,751 --> 03:29:46,959 So we call in the man's death, and they said, "Who's taking the meat?" 3061 03:29:50,751 --> 03:29:55,834 There were disgusting things. 3062 03:29:56,001 --> 03:29:58,501 It was crazy. 3063 03:29:58,667 --> 03:30:02,126 At the time, the local forces was supposed 3064 03:30:02,292 --> 03:30:06,667 to maintain order in Algiers. Local forces were a mix... 3065 03:30:06,834 --> 03:30:10,584 You had to be crazy. Former Harkis', 3066 03:30:10,751 --> 03:30:17,667 guys who wanted to redeem themselves in the eyes of the FLN, French military. 3067 03:30:17,834 --> 03:30:23,251 The chain of command was 3068 03:30:23,417 --> 03:30:29,876 completely unclear, not well defined. French officers would defect to the FLN. 3069 03:30:30,042 --> 03:30:35,667 Especially... and... They were incapable of maintaining order. 3070 03:30:35,834 --> 03:30:39,876 The OAS were the last piece of ammo, 3071 03:30:40,042 --> 03:30:44,251 commandos who had nothing left to lose. 3072 03:30:45,501 --> 03:30:48,167 - Did you understand them? - Not at all. 3073 03:30:48,334 --> 03:30:51,709 Not then, I no longer followed them. 3074 03:30:51,876 --> 03:30:53,542 Until when did you follow them? 3075 03:30:54,709 --> 03:30:58,542 Until the moment I became aware of the problem. 3076 03:30:58,709 --> 03:31:02,167 They'd launched a fuel truck... 3077 03:31:02,334 --> 03:31:05,667 That was reported to me, I didn't see it personally. 3078 03:31:05,834 --> 03:31:10,251 They launched a fuel truck, blocking the steering, 3079 03:31:10,417 --> 03:31:12,667 on shantytowns. 3080 03:31:12,834 --> 03:31:16,126 They planted bombs in the port. 3081 03:31:16,292 --> 03:31:19,459 Bombs every day. 3082 03:31:19,626 --> 03:31:21,751 Algiers was crazy. 3083 03:31:21,917 --> 03:31:25,667 Sixteen-year-old kids had weapons and fired. 3084 03:31:25,834 --> 03:31:28,917 It was insane. 3085 03:31:29,084 --> 03:31:33,876 At that point, did you still believe in a French Algeria? 3086 03:31:34,042 --> 03:31:38,876 Yes, because it was... Yes. 3087 03:31:39,042 --> 03:31:45,251 Yes, but to stop believing I had to come home. 3088 03:31:45,417 --> 03:31:47,834 I had to see we couldn't 3089 03:31:48,001 --> 03:31:52,459 integrate, mix, 3090 03:31:53,417 --> 03:31:56,834 such different populations. 3091 03:31:57,001 --> 03:32:00,042 You need perspective in order to judge. 3092 03:32:00,209 --> 03:32:02,501 When you're 20 years old... 3093 03:32:02,667 --> 03:32:07,834 When you're in action, you have no perspective. 3094 03:32:08,001 --> 03:32:12,792 And in Algiers at that time, did you also witness FLN abuse? 3095 03:32:12,959 --> 03:32:14,834 Many, yes. 3096 03:32:15,001 --> 03:32:19,834 There were kidnappings, disappearances, I saw from up-close 3097 03:32:20,001 --> 03:32:22,251 at the Second Bureau. 3098 03:32:22,417 --> 03:32:25,042 Both sides were equally barbaric. 3099 03:32:25,209 --> 03:32:29,834 One day, early in the morning, we saw people 3100 03:32:30,001 --> 03:32:33,959 who had joined their villages, 3101 03:32:34,126 --> 03:32:38,126 and these people were marching 3102 03:32:38,292 --> 03:32:40,959 on the road we were on, 3103 03:32:41,126 --> 03:32:42,751 with weapons. 3104 03:32:42,917 --> 03:32:46,709 It was the army, the ALN, the Liberation Army, 3105 03:32:46,876 --> 03:32:52,917 that was marching in front of the French posts. 3106 03:32:53,084 --> 03:32:57,584 And we were inside, we didn't know what would happen, battle stations. 3107 03:32:57,751 --> 03:33:02,876 Then we got the order to lay down our weapons. 3108 03:33:03,042 --> 03:33:07,751 And then we got the order 3109 03:33:07,917 --> 03:33:12,751 to report to Algiers. For us it was Algiers, for others, Oran. 3110 03:33:12,917 --> 03:33:17,876 And at that point, there was 3111 03:33:19,126 --> 03:33:25,084 the issue of the Algerian-French. 3112 03:33:25,251 --> 03:33:30,251 Algerian-French, because they served in the French Army. 3113 03:33:30,417 --> 03:33:34,042 They were asked to make a choice. 3114 03:33:34,209 --> 03:33:38,042 Either stay in the French Army or join the ranks of the ALN. 3115 03:33:38,209 --> 03:33:42,251 So there was a citizenship problem, and many of them, 3116 03:33:42,417 --> 03:33:45,251 the majority, I'd say, 3117 03:33:45,417 --> 03:33:50,876 these people left the French Army to join the ranks of the ALN. 3118 03:33:51,042 --> 03:33:54,459 For us, it was very serious. 3119 03:33:54,626 --> 03:33:57,917 It was unthinkable, impossible. 3120 03:33:58,084 --> 03:34:02,251 We had lived with these friends, they were soldiers like us. 3121 03:34:02,417 --> 03:34:09,251 We shared everything with them, and they left us for the other side. 3122 03:34:09,417 --> 03:34:12,251 When we had to report to Algiers, 3123 03:34:12,417 --> 03:34:15,251 of course there were convoys, we were ordered 3124 03:34:15,417 --> 03:34:18,459 to demolish everything that belonged to the army. 3125 03:34:18,626 --> 03:34:21,126 We demolished everything we could. 3126 03:34:21,292 --> 03:34:26,584 Then the convoys came together, and we drove to Algiers. 3127 03:34:26,751 --> 03:34:33,042 All along the way we were checked by ALN personnel. 3128 03:34:33,209 --> 03:34:38,459 And an anecdote... At a check point, 3129 03:34:38,626 --> 03:34:43,709 in front of us, we had... In front of me, I had 3130 03:34:43,876 --> 03:34:47,459 one of my station mates, from the country, 3131 03:34:47,626 --> 03:34:51,709 who was in the ALN ranks. He inspected us, 3132 03:34:51,876 --> 03:34:55,459 threatened us with weapons, searched us... 3133 03:34:55,626 --> 03:35:00,251 He was acting as a police officer for the ALN, 3134 03:35:00,417 --> 03:35:03,001 when 48 hours before, he was with us. 3135 03:35:03,167 --> 03:35:05,209 Did you talk to him? 3136 03:35:05,376 --> 03:35:07,459 Well, I tried, yes. 3137 03:35:07,626 --> 03:35:13,667 But I'd say I was facing a stranger. 3138 03:35:13,834 --> 03:35:17,251 A boy I shared my packages with. 3139 03:35:17,417 --> 03:35:21,376 He was a very good friend. 3140 03:35:21,542 --> 03:35:23,667 That day, I was facing a stranger. 3141 03:35:23,834 --> 03:35:28,459 It was a soldier from the Algerian Army 3142 03:35:28,626 --> 03:35:33,042 who was inspecting us, armed. And we were unarmed, of course. 3143 03:35:33,209 --> 03:35:36,042 You had the feeling that he'd deceived you all that time. 3144 03:35:36,209 --> 03:35:38,251 It was very hard. 3145 03:35:38,417 --> 03:35:41,251 And I think he deceived us during all that time, yes. 3146 03:35:42,001 --> 03:35:44,751 Did you see the ALN entering Algiers? 3147 03:35:44,917 --> 03:35:46,459 Yes. 3148 03:35:47,667 --> 03:35:51,792 I was one of the few Europeans who were there, 3149 03:35:53,001 --> 03:35:57,667 because when the Moroccan troops arrived in Algiers, 3150 03:35:57,834 --> 03:36:03,251 with Boumediene and Benbellah, the city was insane. 3151 03:36:03,417 --> 03:36:06,251 I was a kid when France was liberated, 3152 03:36:06,417 --> 03:36:10,042 and the crowd was crazy and hysterical. 3153 03:36:10,209 --> 03:36:13,584 I was little, I was seven in '44. 3154 03:36:13,751 --> 03:36:19,042 But I remember well, it was the same thing. 3155 03:36:19,209 --> 03:36:22,251 The women's ululations... 3156 03:36:22,417 --> 03:36:26,792 Muslim women's ululations were something, everyone goes into a trance. 3157 03:36:26,959 --> 03:36:30,084 I went in uniform. 3158 03:36:30,251 --> 03:36:34,084 We were not attacked. 3159 03:36:34,251 --> 03:36:36,834 There were two of us, I was with my driver. 3160 03:36:37,001 --> 03:36:39,876 They probably looked at us sideways, 3161 03:36:40,042 --> 03:36:42,709 because the guys didn't understand. 3162 03:36:42,876 --> 03:36:44,876 But nothing happened to us. 3163 03:36:45,042 --> 03:36:50,084 How did a French officer feel seeing the FLN flag being flown in Algiers? 3164 03:36:51,626 --> 03:36:55,459 You cut yourself out. It's impossible. 3165 03:36:55,626 --> 03:36:57,042 You, you... 3166 03:36:58,209 --> 03:37:03,334 If you caught a guy with the flag six months before you'd shoot him, 3167 03:37:03,501 --> 03:37:07,542 and now they were all over the streets. So... 3168 03:37:07,709 --> 03:37:10,917 How can you feel about it? 3169 03:37:11,084 --> 03:37:14,084 You realize that you went through something useless. 3170 03:37:14,251 --> 03:37:17,667 When they took down the French flags to put up the other ones, 3171 03:37:17,834 --> 03:37:19,584 it did something to your heart. 3172 03:37:19,751 --> 03:37:22,334 What made a big impression on me is when I saw... The ALN 3173 03:37:22,501 --> 03:37:26,542 were wearing fatigues of a different color, that was not it. It was the flags. 3174 03:37:26,709 --> 03:37:30,876 I saw the ALN flags around us, and it felt weird. 3175 03:37:32,084 --> 03:37:37,709 I saw guys risking their lives 3176 03:37:37,876 --> 03:37:42,084 to get a flag that represented nothing. 3177 03:37:42,251 --> 03:37:47,417 I thought it was utterly ridiculous, and when I saw the Fells 3178 03:37:47,584 --> 03:37:51,667 roll out with Jeeps and the Fell flags inside, 3179 03:37:51,834 --> 03:37:53,667 I was... 3180 03:37:53,834 --> 03:37:58,542 How did it feel to see the repatriates leave? 3181 03:37:58,709 --> 03:38:00,876 How did it feel 3182 03:38:01,042 --> 03:38:05,334 to see guys who leave with nothing, with their kids crying, 3183 03:38:05,501 --> 03:38:08,042 whom you help with their move. 3184 03:38:08,209 --> 03:38:11,834 Because we set up, I set up a unit of guys 3185 03:38:12,001 --> 03:38:16,376 to help the men move, the repatriates. 3186 03:38:16,542 --> 03:38:22,126 They put their luggage in containers, and in Algiers the containers 3187 03:38:22,292 --> 03:38:25,501 were dipped in the sea before being put on the boats. 3188 03:38:25,667 --> 03:38:31,042 Yeah. How can it feel to know 3189 03:38:31,209 --> 03:38:36,126 that French soldiers were being kidnapped and... 3190 03:38:36,292 --> 03:38:40,167 through intelligence I received at the Second Bureau, I knew 3191 03:38:40,334 --> 03:38:42,959 that some used them as whores? 3192 03:38:43,126 --> 03:38:46,876 How does it feel to see 3193 03:38:47,042 --> 03:38:51,751 crying mothers with their kids and suitcases? 3194 03:38:51,917 --> 03:38:57,251 And on the other side, how does it feel to see an Arab being shot point blank, 3195 03:38:57,417 --> 03:39:02,626 a poor guy who wants to feed his family? How do you think it feels? 3196 03:39:02,792 --> 03:39:08,751 Huh? You change overnight, minute to minute, 3197 03:39:08,917 --> 03:39:10,209 you live through that shit. 3198 03:39:10,376 --> 03:39:15,251 At that time, I found myself confirming my desire to be a doctor, 3199 03:39:15,417 --> 03:39:17,917 in opposition, in several occasions 3200 03:39:18,084 --> 03:39:21,542 against army heads who stayed in their offices, 3201 03:39:21,709 --> 03:39:24,042 and who didn't take responsibility for anything. 3202 03:39:24,209 --> 03:39:28,001 They didn't treat, they were military doctors who managed their office. 3203 03:39:28,167 --> 03:39:30,584 I was asked to abandon and destroy everything. 3204 03:39:30,751 --> 03:39:33,042 Practically, it amounted to manufacturing 3205 03:39:33,209 --> 03:39:35,876 in a completely artificial and deliberate manner. 3206 03:39:36,042 --> 03:39:39,751 Tuberculosis, infectious diseases, epidemics. 3207 03:39:39,917 --> 03:39:42,084 Because I treated chronic diseases, 3208 03:39:42,251 --> 03:39:44,042 TB patients. If I destroyed the files, 3209 03:39:44,209 --> 03:39:49,376 I would create a primary infection epidemic. And it was impossible 3210 03:39:49,542 --> 03:39:51,792 - with the means... - Where did that order come from? 3211 03:39:51,959 --> 03:39:54,917 From the army. I was told to stop everything 3212 03:39:55,084 --> 03:39:58,667 and to leave everything in place. The files were lost. 3213 03:39:58,834 --> 03:40:00,917 If I didn't transfer the files, 3214 03:40:01,084 --> 03:40:04,376 I would have left hundreds of patients without treatment, 3215 03:40:04,542 --> 03:40:08,251 meaning their tuberculosis would evolve, and they would become contagious 3216 03:40:08,417 --> 03:40:11,251 for children and people 3217 03:40:11,417 --> 03:40:15,251 surrounding them. It was a catastrophic situation. 3218 03:40:15,417 --> 03:40:17,209 In addition to the lack of treatment. 3219 03:40:17,376 --> 03:40:22,334 One morning, my driver told me 3220 03:40:22,501 --> 03:40:27,042 the ALN settled in the village, a little town actually, 3221 03:40:27,209 --> 03:40:30,834 and he told me that, only at the beginning 3222 03:40:31,001 --> 03:40:33,917 that the transmission would take place. 3223 03:40:34,084 --> 03:40:37,167 So we... The scene was extraordinary, 3224 03:40:37,334 --> 03:40:40,334 it was very moving, 3225 03:40:40,501 --> 03:40:43,751 it felt like I was ending my stay in Algeria. 3226 03:40:43,917 --> 03:40:47,126 I had stayed true to my ethics 3227 03:40:47,292 --> 03:40:52,126 and to the constraints that were imposed on me, 3228 03:40:52,292 --> 03:40:57,751 and when I arrived in the village 3229 03:40:57,917 --> 03:41:03,959 on the edge of the mountains, there were hairpin bends, I remember well. 3230 03:41:04,126 --> 03:41:07,876 My ambulance slowed down, and you entered the town 3231 03:41:08,042 --> 03:41:12,834 on a big... a kind of boulevard... An avenue, with trees. 3232 03:41:13,001 --> 03:41:16,376 I still see this avenue with white houses on each side. 3233 03:41:16,542 --> 03:41:22,334 And at the end of this avenue, on the left, there was the clinic. 3234 03:41:22,501 --> 03:41:26,459 And when we arrived, the streets were deserted, 3235 03:41:26,626 --> 03:41:29,459 which shocked me, because it was usually crowded. 3236 03:41:29,626 --> 03:41:35,542 Streets were empty, blinds closed. And almost at every tree, there were 3237 03:41:35,709 --> 03:41:38,459 uh, a... 3238 03:41:40,251 --> 03:41:43,917 men each wearing a burnous, their back to me, 3239 03:41:44,084 --> 03:41:50,459 the burnous covering their heads. And this burnous hid weapons. 3240 03:41:50,626 --> 03:41:53,459 They carried weapons, they were soldiers. 3241 03:41:53,626 --> 03:41:57,167 And I wondered what they were doing, and he said, "It's for you." 3242 03:41:57,334 --> 03:41:59,792 Turns out the ALN was still covering me. 3243 03:41:59,959 --> 03:42:04,042 They were looking toward the windows, 3244 03:42:04,209 --> 03:42:08,542 they looked at the population, a bit like for a public figure, 3245 03:42:08,709 --> 03:42:12,792 their back to the public figure, which was me, I was on the front line. 3246 03:42:12,959 --> 03:42:17,751 And I arrived with the ambulance, and getting out, 3247 03:42:17,917 --> 03:42:22,251 I am welcomed by men in uniforms on the front steps, 3248 03:42:22,417 --> 03:42:27,042 in kakis, in combat uniform, the joint chiefs of staff were there, 3249 03:42:27,209 --> 03:42:28,792 not only the doctor, 3250 03:42:29,959 --> 03:42:32,792 and they saluted me. 3251 03:42:34,042 --> 03:42:36,709 - And you saluted too? - I did. 3252 03:42:36,876 --> 03:42:39,917 I was in uniform, so I saluted back. 3253 03:42:40,084 --> 03:42:43,501 And I entered the clinic with the doctor only, 3254 03:42:43,667 --> 03:42:48,459 who introduced himself, he'd studied in France, his French was perfect. 3255 03:42:48,626 --> 03:42:53,542 He apologized for coming so late, he said he was in Siddi Bel-Abbes. 3256 03:42:53,709 --> 03:42:56,334 I turned over the files, which took a while. 3257 03:42:56,501 --> 03:43:02,042 I gave him all my files. He thanked me. 3258 03:43:02,209 --> 03:43:07,042 And the population wanted to offer me a parting gift. 3259 03:43:07,209 --> 03:43:12,876 They wanted to offer me a portable surgery kit 3260 03:43:13,042 --> 03:43:18,542 from the clinic, which I refused. They really needed the equipment. 3261 03:43:18,709 --> 03:43:24,959 And with a wink, he took me to the infamous ALN infirmary 3262 03:43:25,126 --> 03:43:28,001 which we'd looked for a long time, that was in the village. 3263 03:43:28,167 --> 03:43:30,126 An underground infirmary. 3264 03:43:30,292 --> 03:43:33,334 There was a pharmacy, medical equipment. 3265 03:43:33,501 --> 03:43:37,001 I found Chinese morphine, 3266 03:43:37,167 --> 03:43:40,751 equipment from all over the world. 3267 03:43:40,917 --> 03:43:46,126 It was hidden behind a wall. There was a house with a moving wall, 3268 03:43:46,292 --> 03:43:49,292 and you entered a room in the back. 3269 03:43:49,459 --> 03:43:53,917 It was an additional side clinic 3270 03:43:54,084 --> 03:43:56,084 for military use. 3271 03:43:57,251 --> 03:44:00,084 And then I said goodbye. 3272 03:44:01,334 --> 03:44:07,876 There was a sort of agreement. I only shook hands with the doctor, 3273 03:44:08,042 --> 03:44:13,084 not with the others. That's how it happened. 3274 03:44:13,251 --> 03:44:18,042 On the way back, the ambulance brought me back, 3275 03:44:19,751 --> 03:44:26,376 and... Actually, it's very painful because... 3276 03:44:28,917 --> 03:44:32,334 Every time I tell this story, I feel awful stress. 3277 03:44:34,584 --> 03:44:38,834 And I can't... I can't finish. 3278 03:44:43,917 --> 03:44:46,126 Maybe I could pick it up again. 3279 03:44:46,292 --> 03:44:47,876 Cut. 3280 03:44:49,417 --> 03:44:52,001 My departure was very moving. 3281 03:44:52,167 --> 03:44:56,584 On the avenue on my way out... 3282 03:44:58,084 --> 03:45:01,542 the soldiers of the ALN 3283 03:45:01,709 --> 03:45:08,126 faced me and presented their arms to me. 3284 03:45:10,001 --> 03:45:12,626 They had uncovered their heads. 3285 03:45:14,084 --> 03:45:16,959 And it was like that for 150 yards. 3286 03:45:19,709 --> 03:45:22,084 The farewell to Algeria. 3287 03:45:25,334 --> 03:45:28,959 When men will live out of love 3288 03:45:29,126 --> 03:45:32,834 There will be no more misery 3289 03:45:33,001 --> 03:45:36,834 Soldiers will be troubadours 3290 03:45:37,001 --> 03:45:41,667 But we will be dead, my brother 3291 03:45:41,834 --> 03:45:45,292 On the great path of life 3292 03:45:45,459 --> 03:45:48,959 That we had to follow 3293 03:45:49,126 --> 03:45:52,751 Where we had to be 3294 03:45:52,917 --> 03:45:57,292 We received the bad part 3295 03:45:58,042 --> 03:46:01,584 When men will live out of love 3296 03:46:01,751 --> 03:46:05,626 There will be no more misery 3297 03:46:05,792 --> 03:46:09,626 Soldiers will be troubadours 3298 03:46:09,792 --> 03:46:14,501 But we will be dead, my brother 3299 03:46:14,667 --> 03:46:18,126 When men will live out of love 3300 03:46:18,292 --> 03:46:22,167 There will be no more misery 3301 03:46:22,334 --> 03:46:27,709 How will be the sweet days then 3302 03:46:27,876 --> 03:46:34,459 But we will be dead, my brother 3303 03:46:44,959 --> 03:46:49,709 I arrived at 2 a.m. My mother opened the window, she saw me, 3304 03:46:49,876 --> 03:46:55,167 "What do you want, sir?" Then she recognized me. I said, "Come on!" 3305 03:46:55,334 --> 03:46:58,834 She didn't recognize me, I had a beard, 3306 03:46:59,001 --> 03:47:04,042 I was skinny as a needle, I probably weighed, I don't know, 3307 03:47:04,209 --> 03:47:06,376 one-thirty-five, one-forty. 3308 03:47:06,542 --> 03:47:11,792 When I walked through the village, no one recognized me. "Who's that tramp?" 3309 03:47:11,959 --> 03:47:18,459 It took me a year to get back to an active life. 3310 03:47:18,626 --> 03:47:23,459 I remember in Grenoble's street, the first days, 3311 03:47:23,626 --> 03:47:28,251 the slightest motorcycle noise made me jumped. I heard gun shots. 3312 03:47:28,417 --> 03:47:32,876 At night, I would wake up. I thought, "It's over, you're here now." 3313 03:47:33,042 --> 03:47:36,542 Back in Grenoble, in the beginning, there were three things. 3314 03:47:36,709 --> 03:47:40,334 I was surprised there were no double bends in every village. 3315 03:47:40,501 --> 03:47:44,167 Constantly watching the ridge lines, the mountain. 3316 03:47:44,334 --> 03:47:47,459 We'd say, "Did you see those guys?" The Mergers, 3317 03:47:47,626 --> 03:47:51,667 the guys from Merlin Gerin in the office, didn't see anything. 3318 03:47:51,834 --> 03:47:56,459 And we saw the guys walking around. Even now, 3319 03:47:56,626 --> 03:47:58,917 we follow the peaks. 3320 03:47:59,084 --> 03:48:01,751 And the third thing were ambushes. 3321 03:48:01,917 --> 03:48:04,542 The Gorges de la Bournes and the Gorges d'Engin 3322 03:48:04,709 --> 03:48:08,459 with all these holes, a narrow road, 3323 03:48:08,626 --> 03:48:12,667 you always feel like you are ready to bolt 3324 03:48:12,834 --> 03:48:17,542 and to brace yourself, the feeling of being unsafe. It lasted a long time. 3325 03:48:17,709 --> 03:48:22,167 I left as a healthy 25-year-old, 3326 03:48:22,334 --> 03:48:26,251 and I think I came back sick. 3327 03:48:26,417 --> 03:48:30,126 During this Algerian War, I think there was 3328 03:48:30,292 --> 03:48:33,917 a psychological break in me, 3329 03:48:34,084 --> 03:48:36,876 which made me come back as an anxious person. 3330 03:48:37,042 --> 03:48:41,042 When I was released, everything we did 3331 03:48:41,209 --> 03:48:45,751 stayed with me, and at night, I had nightmares. 3332 03:48:45,917 --> 03:48:49,251 - I don't know if it happened to you. - You got startled in bed. 3333 03:48:49,417 --> 03:48:53,042 Yes, naturally. I was still in ambush mode, as we say. 3334 03:48:53,209 --> 03:48:55,126 You were still in an ambush? - Right. 3335 03:48:55,292 --> 03:48:57,876 - Did it last long? - About ten years. 3336 03:48:58,042 --> 03:49:00,542 You remembered things that came back, 3337 03:49:00,709 --> 03:49:04,126 things that happened there, the ambushes. 3338 03:49:04,292 --> 03:49:09,251 When we watched the farm we heard the storks all night, 3339 03:49:09,417 --> 03:49:12,834 the beaks chattering all night, we heard... 3340 03:49:13,001 --> 03:49:18,667 All night and... That stayed with me. 3341 03:49:18,834 --> 03:49:22,751 Sometimes I see those storks on the tall trees, 3342 03:49:22,917 --> 03:49:27,709 the eucalyptuses that were huge, 3343 03:49:27,876 --> 03:49:30,917 maybe 150 feet high, covered in storks. 3344 03:49:32,334 --> 03:49:33,959 They would chatter all night. 3345 03:49:34,126 --> 03:49:36,459 Coming back from those 30 months in the army, 3346 03:49:36,626 --> 03:49:40,459 like a lot of colleagues, I had six terrible months 3347 03:49:40,626 --> 03:49:42,459 of total instability. 3348 03:49:42,626 --> 03:49:46,042 I recently talked about it with my wife who was my fiancée then, 3349 03:49:46,209 --> 03:49:48,667 she said I was unbearable. 3350 03:49:48,834 --> 03:49:51,751 I couldn't stand any remarks. 3351 03:49:51,917 --> 03:49:56,459 I must have been going through a management crisis. 3352 03:49:56,626 --> 03:50:00,667 I suddenly had to obey. Probably. 3353 03:50:00,834 --> 03:50:04,126 And I'd say that's when I really started... 3354 03:50:04,292 --> 03:50:07,292 Today, in hindsight, 3355 03:50:07,459 --> 03:50:12,167 that's when I said, I need to exploit this, 3356 03:50:12,334 --> 03:50:14,084 and I acquired a taste for leadership. 3357 03:50:14,251 --> 03:50:18,584 When I arrived, I remember throwing a tantrum. 3358 03:50:18,751 --> 03:50:22,917 I came home late January, and late February, less than a month later, 3359 03:50:23,084 --> 03:50:26,751 I'd never worked, I didn't know what it was. 3360 03:50:26,917 --> 03:50:30,876 The nation took care of me, since I got a letter from the tax administration. 3361 03:50:31,042 --> 03:50:35,251 I didn't even know what an auditor was. 3362 03:50:35,417 --> 03:50:38,042 And I received a letter saying I owed 950 francs 3363 03:50:38,209 --> 03:50:42,251 and some change on what I had earned during the war. 3364 03:50:42,417 --> 03:50:46,167 And considering the losses we had in 1958 3365 03:50:46,334 --> 03:50:49,667 in the 18th RCP, I thought the blood tax... my God... 3366 03:50:49,834 --> 03:50:53,334 And coming home to that without asking if I'd found a job, 3367 03:50:53,501 --> 03:50:55,209 I thought it was very hard. 3368 03:50:55,376 --> 03:51:01,459 I had an experience after the war 3369 03:51:01,626 --> 03:51:04,834 that really shows the stupidity of war. 3370 03:51:05,001 --> 03:51:08,126 I used to play rugby then, 3371 03:51:09,417 --> 03:51:14,459 in a college team. 3372 03:51:14,626 --> 03:51:19,126 After the game, there's always a third half-time. 3373 03:51:20,417 --> 03:51:27,417 And at the time, after my return, when I drank a bit, I spoke Kabyle. 3374 03:51:28,917 --> 03:51:33,417 And in the university bar, I spoke Kabyle, 3375 03:51:33,584 --> 03:51:37,167 and a guy came to me saying, "You speak Kabyle," etc. 3376 03:51:37,334 --> 03:51:41,084 We talked, he was a Fell sub-lieutenant 3377 03:51:41,251 --> 03:51:45,376 of commandos in my sector. 3378 03:51:45,542 --> 03:51:50,084 We shared our mutual ambushes. 3379 03:51:50,251 --> 03:51:54,626 We all went to my place with the rugby team. 3380 03:51:55,626 --> 03:51:59,292 I had a car accident on the way, 3381 03:51:59,459 --> 03:52:02,834 the other driver attacked me because I was 3382 03:52:03,001 --> 03:52:06,126 with an Arab, to him, but I was with a Kabyle. 3383 03:52:06,292 --> 03:52:10,376 I kicked his ass to defend a Kabyle. 3384 03:52:11,751 --> 03:52:16,834 And if we'd met six months earlier, we wouldn't have spared each other. 3385 03:52:17,001 --> 03:52:22,001 Coming home, there was no job. 3386 03:52:23,626 --> 03:52:30,001 I was angry, you see. I don't know what I would have done... 3387 03:52:33,834 --> 03:52:37,376 Well... Thanks to my family, 3388 03:52:37,542 --> 03:52:41,251 and to my fiancée at the time, 3389 03:52:41,417 --> 03:52:44,626 I managed to find a job in another company. 3390 03:52:44,792 --> 03:52:48,751 I went back to an almost normal life. 3391 03:52:48,917 --> 03:52:54,459 And I think that marriage 3392 03:52:54,626 --> 03:52:56,542 helped me to forget a little. 3393 03:52:57,626 --> 03:53:02,667 But I still have flashbacks. 3394 03:53:02,834 --> 03:53:08,376 All of them are from where I almost died, and I was lucky. 3395 03:53:08,542 --> 03:53:13,376 It was hard, especially in the beginning, for two or three months. 3396 03:53:13,542 --> 03:53:17,584 The movie ran in your head. 3397 03:53:17,751 --> 03:53:23,334 You thought about your mates, we parted on a platform in Marseille. 3398 03:53:24,626 --> 03:53:28,542 But on the other hand, I found it hard. 3399 03:53:28,709 --> 03:53:30,667 When I came back, many things had changed, 3400 03:53:30,834 --> 03:53:36,251 because in three years things change. 3401 03:53:36,417 --> 03:53:43,251 On the other hand, paratroopers were not liked here. 3402 03:53:43,417 --> 03:53:46,167 In some age brackets, some would say... 3403 03:53:46,334 --> 03:53:49,542 They'd say, "Oh, a paratrooper, you shed blood." 3404 03:53:49,709 --> 03:53:53,584 Yeah. When you come back to that... 3405 03:53:53,751 --> 03:53:57,959 But I do regret one thing, I was told I'd regret returning your kit. 3406 03:53:58,126 --> 03:54:02,501 It's true, if I'd stayed, I would be retired without another war. 3407 03:54:02,667 --> 03:54:06,459 I came home, some friends hadn't gone, they'd managed 3408 03:54:06,626 --> 03:54:11,042 to be exempted from service. 3409 03:54:11,209 --> 03:54:14,292 Everyone had kept living their lives, going to parties. 3410 03:54:14,459 --> 03:54:16,917 You really felt disconnected then. 3411 03:54:17,084 --> 03:54:21,959 You really had the feeling that the French didn't 3412 03:54:22,126 --> 03:54:27,042 know much about the Algeria War. They see a few Fellaghas, some rifles. 3413 03:54:27,209 --> 03:54:30,751 I've seen up to 22 planes supporting us. 3414 03:54:30,917 --> 03:54:34,501 In hindsight, do you think you waged a useless war? 3415 03:54:35,251 --> 03:54:38,834 Certainly, because in the end, the solution was 3416 03:54:39,001 --> 03:54:41,876 the one that was asked for in November 1954. 3417 03:54:42,042 --> 03:54:44,084 The deaths were useless. 3418 03:54:44,251 --> 03:54:47,459 But the war we did, no, because it was not just war. 3419 03:54:47,626 --> 03:54:50,751 We built... I showed you this. 3420 03:54:50,917 --> 03:54:55,459 We built entire villages. We brought tons of things, built hospitals. 3421 03:54:55,626 --> 03:54:58,709 Is that useless? Certainly not. 3422 03:54:58,876 --> 03:55:03,042 I think it is the foundation of what you can do for a civilization. 3423 03:55:03,209 --> 03:55:07,417 We brought civilization, we showed it. This is still there. 3424 03:55:07,584 --> 03:55:11,001 It still exists, it wasn't destroyed. Maybe it's poorly used. 3425 03:55:11,167 --> 03:55:13,834 I think we were morons. 3426 03:55:14,001 --> 03:55:18,084 Because we went there, and left everything for nothing, 30,000 mates. 3427 03:55:18,251 --> 03:55:21,501 Without counting the wounded, about 300,000 thousand wounded. 3428 03:55:21,667 --> 03:55:24,459 All those who are still bearing the consequences. 3429 03:55:24,626 --> 03:55:29,751 And I say that... In addition to that, we are ignored. 3430 03:55:29,917 --> 03:55:33,167 Now. You have to recognize we are completely ignored. 3431 03:55:33,334 --> 03:55:35,709 Veterans are morons to them. 3432 03:55:36,709 --> 03:55:38,834 The number of casualties is regrettable... 3433 03:55:39,001 --> 03:55:45,042 but the conclusion is that we stayed for nothing. 3434 03:55:47,126 --> 03:55:48,959 No... 3435 03:55:51,667 --> 03:55:56,667 We became wealthy in memories, some happy, some sad. 3436 03:55:56,834 --> 03:55:59,751 But in terms of results, no, it was useless. 3437 03:55:59,917 --> 03:56:03,584 How do you explain that the Algerian War is seldom discussed? 3438 03:56:03,751 --> 03:56:07,792 Because the French are ashamed. Of what happened, what they believed, 3439 03:56:07,959 --> 03:56:09,959 of what they didn't do. 3440 03:56:10,126 --> 03:56:13,042 And ashamed of their lack of reaction, as it often happens. 3441 03:56:13,209 --> 03:56:15,667 In '45, few French people were 3442 03:56:15,834 --> 03:56:19,126 proud of what happened between 1940 and 1945. 3443 03:56:19,292 --> 03:56:22,292 I'd say it's the same thing. They are ashamed 3444 03:56:22,459 --> 03:56:24,209 and don't discuss it. 3445 03:56:24,376 --> 03:56:29,334 I was part of the body of teachers who had taught 3446 03:56:29,501 --> 03:56:33,126 generations of French citizens that Algeria 3447 03:56:33,292 --> 03:56:38,667 was a French territory. I felt it remained 3448 03:56:38,834 --> 03:56:43,876 very present in the French subconscious. 3449 03:56:44,042 --> 03:56:47,542 We couldn't have fought a war since we were defending the French land. 3450 03:56:47,709 --> 03:56:50,209 What do you think you've learned during this war? 3451 03:56:51,417 --> 03:56:56,959 Well, for me, I can't say I suffered excessively. 3452 03:56:57,126 --> 03:57:01,251 However, I left as a student, 3453 03:57:01,417 --> 03:57:07,751 I ended up being in charge of 30 guys. 3454 03:57:07,917 --> 03:57:10,709 I had to deal with civilians. 3455 03:57:10,876 --> 03:57:14,876 I had practically, like all the sub-lieutenants at the time, 3456 03:57:15,042 --> 03:57:19,751 full powers, well, that's how it felt. 3457 03:57:19,917 --> 03:57:24,501 I felt I went from a typical adolescence 3458 03:57:24,667 --> 03:57:28,667 to adulthood. That's why, in hindsight, I don't regret 3459 03:57:28,834 --> 03:57:30,417 my Algerian period, if you will. 3460 03:57:30,584 --> 03:57:34,459 I was never again given the responsibilities I had when I was 23, 3461 03:57:34,626 --> 03:57:37,667 the freedom I had at the time. 3462 03:57:37,834 --> 03:57:44,667 I learned a lot. There's a price to pay but... 3463 03:57:44,834 --> 03:57:46,584 I learned a lot, for sure. 3464 03:57:46,751 --> 03:57:49,584 I don't know how I'm going to end up. I'm a commercial agent, 3465 03:57:49,751 --> 03:57:51,751 and I can't find a job, because people 3466 03:57:51,917 --> 03:57:54,667 don't want a 55-year-old with a limp. 3467 03:57:54,834 --> 03:57:58,251 I'll find a night watchman's job in a factory 3468 03:57:58,417 --> 03:58:01,084 with a walkie-talkie, it's going to end like that. 3469 03:58:01,251 --> 03:58:05,042 Once again, it's an adventure. I don't regret anything, 3470 03:58:05,209 --> 03:58:08,876 personally, I liked it. 3471 03:58:09,042 --> 03:58:11,959 If I had to live through that event again, I would. 3472 03:58:12,126 --> 03:58:17,334 I lost my certainties, and I realized that right and wrong 3473 03:58:17,501 --> 03:58:21,917 are things better left for young people to dream about. 3474 03:58:22,084 --> 03:58:26,751 Maybe it's maturity, becoming an adult. 3475 03:58:26,917 --> 03:58:29,751 Perhaps the war helped me become an adult. 3476 03:58:29,917 --> 03:58:34,542 It made me understand that reality was far more complex 3477 03:58:34,709 --> 03:58:36,917 that our young dreams. 3478 03:58:37,084 --> 03:58:43,334 I believe we aged. 3479 03:58:44,501 --> 03:58:47,626 In 25 months in the army, 3480 03:58:47,792 --> 03:58:52,417 I don't think I aged two years, but ten. 3481 03:58:53,542 --> 03:58:56,251 You feel your youth was wasted. 3482 03:58:56,417 --> 03:58:58,751 My kid is a ward of the state, 3483 03:58:58,917 --> 03:59:01,501 and I always said, if there's another conflict, 3484 03:59:01,667 --> 03:59:05,917 I'd put him in a basement, I'd feed him, but he won't do it. 3485 03:59:06,917 --> 03:59:10,834 For sure, I'm against all wars. 3486 03:59:13,001 --> 03:59:17,709 And there's the others, who adapted more or less successfully. 3487 03:59:17,876 --> 03:59:21,667 Henrietti, who lives a few yards away from his pal Puygrenier, 3488 03:59:21,834 --> 03:59:23,959 is a construction manager. 3489 03:59:24,126 --> 03:59:27,167 Noël Trouilloud, after working as a farmer, 3490 03:59:27,334 --> 03:59:32,334 became a nurse in the psychiatric hospital where Pessenti is an ambulance driver. 3491 03:59:32,501 --> 03:59:35,959 Dr. Francois Sikirdji is a renowned gynecologist. 3492 03:59:36,126 --> 03:59:39,542 Gilbert Gardien is an administration executive. 3493 03:59:39,709 --> 03:59:42,751 Jean Manin went back to the factory. 3494 03:59:42,917 --> 03:59:46,667 Jacques Beck went back to the family retail store. 3495 03:59:47,626 --> 03:59:50,917 Gaëtan Esposito owns a little paint company. 3496 03:59:51,084 --> 03:59:55,459 Some are activists at the NVU, like Jean Bolton, a child psychologist, 3497 03:59:55,626 --> 03:59:59,626 others at the FNACA, like René Denazzolo or César Delbello, 3498 03:59:59,792 --> 04:00:01,667 a long-time teamster. 3499 04:00:01,834 --> 04:00:03,001 I don't hear you anymore. 3500 04:00:03,167 --> 04:00:08,167 Considered like a sterile subject, the veterans of North Africa 3501 04:00:08,334 --> 04:00:11,584 are worthless. Lessened by age, 3502 04:00:11,751 --> 04:00:15,626 no longer productive enough in economic life, 3503 04:00:15,792 --> 04:00:17,292 we are doomed to be discarded. 3504 04:00:17,459 --> 04:00:22,251 Know that the veterans of North Africa won't let their children experience 3505 04:00:22,417 --> 04:00:25,292 what they are experiencing today: contempt. 3506 04:00:25,459 --> 04:00:31,917 Some were wounded in the flesh. Serge Puygrenier is a pensioner. 3507 04:00:32,084 --> 04:00:36,042 He receives 3,500 francs a month for disability. The price of a leg. 3508 04:00:37,126 --> 04:00:40,334 Out of 200,000 soldiers wounded across the Mediterranean, 3509 04:00:40,501 --> 04:00:43,584 eighty thousand receive disability pensions. 3510 04:00:43,751 --> 04:00:48,667 They demand to acquire the same veteran status to that of other conflicts. 3511 04:00:48,834 --> 04:00:52,042 It's impossible, governments have been saying for 25 years. 3512 04:00:52,209 --> 04:00:56,667 The Algerian War was not a war, but a law enforcement operation. 3513 04:00:57,501 --> 04:01:01,792 There are those like Henri Girard, who never came back from it. 3514 04:01:01,959 --> 04:01:06,709 Twenty-four thousand draftees died to keep Algeria French. 3515 04:01:07,626 --> 04:01:10,251 And there are those who never recovered. 3516 04:01:10,417 --> 04:01:16,376 Who carry deep traumas, unspeakable nightmares, irreversible effects. 3517 04:01:16,542 --> 04:01:20,042 How many have suffered night and day for thirty years? 3518 04:01:20,209 --> 04:01:26,042 There are no statistics. France refuses to publish precise numbers. 3519 04:01:26,209 --> 04:01:29,542 But it can be estimated that several thousand Algerian veterans 3520 04:01:29,709 --> 04:01:32,084 suffer serious psychiatric disorders. 3521 04:01:33,292 --> 04:01:37,334 We followed a field trip organized by FNACA volunteers 3522 04:01:37,501 --> 04:01:41,001 for a group of patients treated in psychiatry wards. 3523 04:01:41,751 --> 04:01:44,126 Look at these faces. 3524 04:02:07,792 --> 04:02:10,376 They all were draftees in Algeria. 3525 04:02:10,542 --> 04:02:15,042 This one for example, who becomes interested in the crew 3526 04:02:15,209 --> 04:02:18,667 when he finds out I directed Round Midnight. 3527 04:02:18,834 --> 04:02:22,334 He was a jazz pianist before Algeria. 3528 04:02:22,501 --> 04:02:26,084 I like Oscar Peterson. 3529 04:02:26,251 --> 04:02:30,334 Ray Bryant. Monk. Thelonious Monk. 3530 04:02:30,501 --> 04:02:32,584 - Bud Powell? - Bud Powell. 3531 04:02:33,876 --> 04:02:35,959 - Tommy Flanagan. - Ah! 3532 04:02:36,126 --> 04:02:38,667 Tommy Flanagan. 3533 04:02:38,834 --> 04:02:43,334 Who else...? I like the guitar player... 3534 04:02:43,501 --> 04:02:47,792 Wes Montgomery. That was great. Kenny Burrell. 3535 04:02:49,126 --> 04:02:51,042 - Do you know him? - Oh, yes. 3536 04:02:51,209 --> 04:02:52,667 - You like him? - Fantastic. 3537 04:02:52,834 --> 04:02:54,126 He's good, right? 3538 04:02:54,292 --> 04:02:56,876 - You saw prisoners coming? - Yeah. 3539 04:02:57,042 --> 04:03:00,542 Dozens at a time. And there were wood chores. 3540 04:03:01,709 --> 04:03:06,667 Executions. They had to be escorted. 3541 04:03:06,834 --> 04:03:09,917 I typed the interrogations. 3542 04:03:10,084 --> 04:03:13,959 The commander, the lieutenant reports. 3543 04:03:14,126 --> 04:03:18,042 Then we went on missions. Following intelligence. 3544 04:03:18,209 --> 04:03:22,334 Everything was on intelligence, with the Legion and the paratroopers. 3545 04:03:22,501 --> 04:03:25,001 - Did you watch the interrogations? - No, I didn't want to. 3546 04:03:25,167 --> 04:03:27,542 - You didn't want to. - It made me... 3547 04:03:27,709 --> 04:03:32,334 It made me want to throw up. 3548 04:03:32,501 --> 04:03:35,459 You know about it? The Tucker telephone. 3549 04:03:37,501 --> 04:03:42,042 Oh, I don't want to talk about that stuff anymore. 3550 04:03:42,209 --> 04:03:44,126 - Didier Rinaldi. - Here. 3551 04:03:44,292 --> 04:03:48,667 On behalf of the Secretary of State for Veteran Affairs, 3552 04:03:48,834 --> 04:03:52,126 - I'm awarding you the Combatant's Cross. - Thank you. 3553 04:03:52,292 --> 04:03:54,709 Here you go, my friend. 3554 04:03:54,876 --> 04:03:57,042 M. Roussillon, René, Germain. 3555 04:03:57,209 --> 04:03:59,751 On behalf of the Secretary of State for Veteran Affairs, 3556 04:03:59,917 --> 04:04:03,167 I have pleasure in awarding you the Combatant's Cross. 3557 04:04:03,334 --> 04:04:04,959 Thank you. 3558 04:06:25,959 --> 04:06:29,334 Subtitle translation by: Nadège Traoré-Dulot 281480

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