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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,400 LAUGHTER 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,480 Wait. There we go. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,120 WOMAN LAUGHS 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:17,920 Nellie, careful there. 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,320 Sorry, Grandad. 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,120 Ready? That's ready. 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,080 OK. Ready, Nellie? 8 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:27,760 Here I come! 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,040 Aa-a-ah! Aa-a-ah! 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:32,720 Run! 11 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,000 Aargh! Aargh! 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,920 I can't believe you're still doing that. 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,240 Whee! 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,760 I'd like to welcome you to this international 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,680 conference for climate change, 2009. 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,720 It is my great pleasure to welcome our keynote speaker, 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,920 who has been a pioneer in climate science for the last 30 years, 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,000 an expert in his field, 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,080 world-renowned, 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,800 and who will address us on his work on the global instrumental 21 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,880 temperature record, often referred to as a hockey stick graph, 22 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,960 which has been so important in helping us 23 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:29,520 to understand the cause of change during the last 1,000 years. 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,160 We are honoured to welcome Prof Philip Jones. 25 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:36,880 Go on, then. 26 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,120 APPLAUSE 27 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,480 Thank you. 28 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:00,640 Thank you very much. 29 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,160 PLUCKED VIOLIN MUSIC 30 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,280 I'll call you to let you know when I'm back. 31 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:37,680 You're a star, Dad, thanks. 32 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,560 Where the hell are you? The train leaves in two minutes. 33 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,040 Shit. 34 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,520 Sorry. I had to sort out the kids. Right... 35 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,920 Let's see what level of a shit storm we've got here. 36 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:58,640 The University of East Anglia's Climategate email controversy. 37 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:00,360 Climategate. Climategate. 38 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:01,880 The Climategate scandal. 39 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,280 Scientists are using words like "trick". 40 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,120 Climategate they're calling it, 41 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,920 a new scandal over global warming and it's burning up the Internet. 42 00:03:09,920 --> 00:03:12,680 Have the books been cooked on climate change? 43 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,640 At worst it's junk science 44 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:19,000 and it is a part of a massive, international, scientific fraud. 45 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,440 It's a communications consultancy. 46 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,000 Crisis management. 47 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,720 Neil Wallis, ex-editor of a Sunday tabloid 48 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,560 and his colleague Sam Bowen. 49 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,160 Sam's background is more corporate public relations. 50 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,960 Can we trust them? 51 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:36,800 I think we have to. 52 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,000 We're running out of time. 53 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,160 They're accusing him of fraud, Ruth. 54 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:44,200 How is Phil? 55 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,120 You haven't seen a select committee hearing? 56 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:52,360 No. 57 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,520 It's no walk in the park. 58 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,480 Eight people right there in front of you 59 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,120 and trying to put you on a skewer. 60 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:00,600 Right. 61 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,640 It's the House of Commons, the government. 62 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,640 An all-out vindication and this Professor Philip Jones 63 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,800 and the rest of them have got half a chance. 64 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,280 The slightest whiff of a rap across the knuckles and they're screwed. 65 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:13,920 So we've got one shot at it? 66 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,400 To clear their names? 67 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:20,600 And three weeks to do it. 68 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,920 Skulduggery, scientific espionage and black propaganda. 69 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,680 Have scientists really been manipulating the data? 70 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,240 They claim to be victims of a crime, right? They are. 71 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,760 From the off everyone is all over their arses like they're the criminals. 72 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,280 Even the tree huggers, the environment correspondents. 73 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:48,280 We need institutions independent of them declaring their innocence. 74 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:50,240 I suppose they don't know, do they? 75 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:51,560 What? 76 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,520 If they are innocent or if Jones did rig the data 77 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,600 to exaggerate the increase in temperatures? 78 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,080 Exactly, 79 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,400 everyone is terrified they're guilty as charged. 80 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,040 Maybe they're right to be. 81 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,200 ..tonight faces forensic examination. 82 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,600 The temperature graphs at the heart of concern of about climate change 83 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,800 will now be picked over by experts. 84 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,360 Edward Acton, Vice-Chancellor. 85 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,880 Neil Wallis. Sam Bowen. 86 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,720 Pleased to meet you. This is my co-Vice-Chancellor, Trevor Davies. 87 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,400 Trevor. Former director of the Climatic Research Unit, 88 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,240 also known as CRU. 89 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:55,320 Three months ago. 90 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,360 When you were hacked? 91 00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,480 No. 92 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,120 The hacking itself was some months before. 93 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,560 We only became aware of it when the hacker uploaded the file. 94 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,640 What was he called again? Realclimate.org. 95 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,920 The university learned about it the following day. 96 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:15,760 And you, Phil. 97 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:17,360 Is that when you found out? 98 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,080 I... 99 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,200 Yes, that's when we found out too. 100 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,920 And what was your response once you knew there'd been a hack? 101 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,800 We informed the police and told them 102 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,840 there had been an IT system breach. A data theft. 103 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:45,480 I think that's the phrase that was used. 104 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,240 Goodnight. 105 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,480 Goodnight. 106 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:04,920 Thank you, Stella. 107 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,760 You're very welcome. 108 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,760 These are the press office documents 109 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,760 and I've had made this for you - it's the broadcast coverage. 110 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,360 Good. 111 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,240 We'll take a look at that tonight. 112 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,200 Isn't it rather late? 113 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,200 The House of Commons hearing, it's in three weeks, right? 114 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,800 Yes. 115 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,560 The clock is ticking, Edward, so yeah, we'll be working tonight. 116 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,440 I see, good. 117 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:30,720 Good. 118 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,080 Jesus, they weren't joking. 119 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:39,440 He's broken. 120 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:40,560 Yep. 121 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:43,720 Do you think he...? 122 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,440 He did it? 123 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,960 You'd expect him to be a bit more pissed off, wouldn't you? 124 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,480 If he was innocent. 125 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,600 Are you sure I'm the right person for this? 126 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,040 I do corporate. 127 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,760 Branding. 128 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,720 Which means you're not digital. 129 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,800 Look, whatever. 130 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,080 We're here now, aren't we? 131 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,600 Getting paid to get this lot out of a hole, 132 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,240 guilty or not. 133 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,280 SEAT BELT CLICKS 134 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,200 CAR ENGINE STARTS 135 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,080 OK, thanks for coming, everyone. 136 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,680 Thank you. 137 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:42,080 Er, let's start with the headlines. 138 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,840 Two days ago the Safer Neighbourhoods team logged 139 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,280 a data theft from a backup server 140 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,840 at the University's Climatic Research Unit, known as crew. 141 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,560 Safer Neighbourhoods flagged the call to Special Branch 142 00:08:55,560 --> 00:08:58,360 and last night Gold Command, on my recommendation, 143 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,600 initiated Operation Cabin as a major investigation. 144 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,600 The contents of the file appears to be 145 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,560 around 1,000 emails 146 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:11,360 and other documents written over a ten-year period by staff at CRU, 147 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,240 mostly by its current director, Professor Philip Jones, 148 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,360 world-renowned climate scientist. 149 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,200 Gareth here is from Kinetic, 150 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,160 a defence contractor specialising in cyber security. 151 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,360 His team will lead on the digital investigation, 152 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,200 reporting directly to me as senior investigating officer. 153 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,840 The other two lines of inquiry, 154 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,320 physical breach of CRU or an internal leak, 155 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,800 will be overseen by Gold group. 156 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,320 This is a Category A investigation, 157 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,880 so we can hopefully expect some additional support 158 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,920 from national counterterrorism Scotland Yard. 159 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,360 Yes. 160 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,600 The Cat A status, 161 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,840 sorry, boss, but who's been murdered? 162 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,960 No-one, DS Suppiah. 163 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,400 So the only crime that we're invest... 164 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,600 The breach of the Computer Misuse Act, section one, 165 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,880 and, depending what we turn up, maybe section two. 166 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,160 Regardless, this is still a Cat A investigation, 167 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,400 and I would appreciate it if it were treated as such. 168 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,680 Right, if there aren't any more questions, you know the drill. 169 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:25,000 Any pissed-off employees, office politics, financial vulnerability... 170 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,640 ..who had access, what was the IT set-up, 171 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,960 any hint of a motivation, I want to hear about it. 172 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,880 Thank you. 173 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,800 DS Suppiah, a word. 174 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,520 I appreciate this might just be a staff member with an axe to 175 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,040 grind, or some hacker winning a pissing contest, 176 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,520 but if it isn't, look at the timing, join the dots. 177 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,560 Three weeks before COP15, the UN Climate Conference. 178 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:57,120 Think about it, if this is someone trying to influence 179 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,440 the global response to climate change, 180 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,320 well, then, I'd say maybe Cat A isn't high enough. 181 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,880 CAMERA CLICKS 182 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,800 The stolen emails are mostly conversations between colleagues, 183 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,800 climate scientists, here and in the US. 184 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,840 And these conversations, they've been taken wholesale? 185 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,760 No, because whoever compiled this file, 186 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,560 they knew what they were looking for. 187 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:02,440 These emails had been selected, 188 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,800 probably using a word search for certain phrases. 189 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,480 The first place a link is posted along with this comment here, 190 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,640 "a miracle has happened", is climateaudit.org. 191 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,360 It's a climate sceptic blog run by this man, Steve McIntyre. 192 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,040 He's receiving the link, he's not...? He's not sending it? 193 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,120 Yeah, but he's got history with Jones. 194 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:30,280 Erm, McIntyre is a Canadian ex-mining consultant turned... 195 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,440 ..self-appointed climate science fact checker. 196 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:34,840 If you look at his blog posts 197 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,400 and the comment streams of his website, and the emails, 198 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,720 it reveals that there is an established relationship with Jones. 199 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:46,480 And it seems as far back as 2002, he's been asking Jones for his data. 200 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,240 Which Jones gave him? 201 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,400 Yeah. Initially. 202 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,840 But then, McIntyre started using it to criticise Jones, 203 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,320 to undermine his career, Jones backed off. 204 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,680 McIntyre, well, he got frustrated. 205 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,880 Earlier this year, he persuaded his entire database to send 206 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,640 freedom of information requests to CRU, asking for their raw data. 207 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,880 Which they did. Yeah. 208 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,120 Jones was flooded, and I mean flooded, with requests. 209 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,800 60 in one week, look. It's a bloody tsunami. 210 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,680 Annoying, but not illegal. 211 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:24,760 Yes, but that's where it gets interesting. 212 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,720 Our initial analysis of the hard drives and servers suggests 213 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,880 that the unit was hacked several times between that same time period. 214 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,640 Are you saying there was more than one breach? Not only that. 215 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,840 McIntyre's requests were formally refused by the university. 216 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,280 And four days later, a file of stolen materials goes live. 217 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,280 I have not falsified any data! 218 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,200 Collusion? 219 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,920 They can't argue with the facts. That's what they do all the time! 220 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:06,520 Do you really think this is them? 221 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,760 Well, of course it's them! 222 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,400 I'm sorry. 223 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,360 I haven't done anything wrong, Ruth. 224 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,680 Are you suggesting that McIntyre was responsible? No. 225 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,680 It was a relatively sophisticated attack, 226 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,680 he wouldn't have the capability. But there was a coordination. 227 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,480 More likely someone else with a vested 228 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,240 interest in tracking his disputes with CRU. 229 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,000 Yeah, you should also speak to this guy. This is Steve Mosher. 230 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,640 He's an established lukewarmer. 231 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,600 He doesn't believe that climate change 232 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,320 is as serious as everyone's making out. 233 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,600 When the emails came out, he was in charge of finding 234 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,080 the extracts before they were taken down. 235 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,760 "I've just completed Mike's nature trick..." 236 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,600 "..to hide the decline." 237 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,280 "Cheers, Phil." 238 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,600 And these are the extracts that are penetrating now? 239 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,360 Yeah. It's a very effective selection. 240 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,040 Mosher knew exactly what he was doing. 241 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,000 Have your comms team got Phil's comment on why 242 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,440 he used the word trick? 243 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,400 Already on the website, along with an acknowledgement of the hack. 244 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,880 Look, I think we should do more - defend the science. 245 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,160 We'd be inviting an attack. 246 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,320 I'm telling you, there's an established history. 247 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:52,680 It's a bunch of bloggers, Trevor. 248 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,840 Just let them burn the story out amongst themselves. 249 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,120 There was a piece in the Guardian, and surely, it's quite... 250 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,040 Our defence would only raise more questions, give the story oxygen. 251 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,960 We don't want the science questioned, either. Look... 252 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,440 ..if we can get through the weekend without The Today Programme 253 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,560 calling us, I really think we'll be fine, OK? 254 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,520 25 to eight. 255 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,040 Those who are on the sceptic side have seized on these emails. 256 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,480 One of those sceptics is Lord Lawson, the former Chancellor, 257 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,480 whose book, An Appeal To Reason... 258 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,040 On the face of it, it looks as if the raw data were being 259 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,200 manipulated in order to prove what they wanted to prove, 260 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,920 that they were refusing to allow other scientists outside 261 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,080 access to the raw data, that they 262 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,320 were talking about destroying various files in order to prevent 263 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,480 data being revealed through the Freedom of Information Act. 264 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,880 Now, these are very, very serious things. 265 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,440 It may be that there is an innocent explanation for all this, 266 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,760 but what is absolutely clear, 267 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,080 because this is the basis on which policy decisions are being made, 268 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:50,840 to some extent, by the government, 269 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,640 and by governments around the world, it has also tarnished very 270 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,800 badly the international reputation of British science. 271 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,640 They'll need... 272 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,400 It's just, we really need some clarity, especially on why 273 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,480 some of the temperature data can't be released to the public. 274 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,480 Shell. 275 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,440 "Dear Phil Jones - you should kill yourself. 276 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,200 "You lying prick, arsehole. 277 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,400 "And if you don't, I'll be more than happy to do it for you. 278 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,120 "And your family." Oh, God. That's terrible. 279 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,680 We'll inform the police. 280 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,040 Look, Ruth, if he does come round a bit, would you mind... 281 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,680 He's the only one who knows the truth about the emails, 282 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,520 the temperature... I know, believe me, I know. 283 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,960 Even his voice has changed, Trevor. 284 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,320 Like it's stuck in his throat. 285 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,680 Are you and Grandad coming to my school play, Granny? 286 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,600 Of course, sweetheart. 287 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,240 Did... It might just be Granny this time. 288 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,320 OK. OK! 289 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,560 Bye. Bye. 290 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,240 Bye, Granny, see you soon. Bye! 291 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,200 RUTH SOBS 292 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,480 These are the most damaging extracts. 293 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,480 Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith? 294 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,680 Keith will do likewise. 295 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,840 "We're choosing the periods to show warming. 296 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,000 "I've just completed Mike's nature trick... 297 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,040 "..to hide the decline." 298 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,280 The press inquiries haven't stopped all morning, it's unprecedented. 299 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,680 Like nothing anyone's seen before. And from the US now to... 300 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,920 What is it they want, specifically? Phil. 301 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,160 The extracts are mostly from his emails. 302 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,600 And he's the director of CRU. 303 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,680 They want to know why all of CRU's data isn't available as well. 304 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,640 But in terms of people, Phil. No-one else. 305 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,800 I'm afraid that's not going to be possible. 306 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,320 Well, surely you don't stand by his comments on the website? Yeah. 307 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,040 Why isn't Phil available? 308 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,680 It would be the clearest way to set things straight. I agree. 309 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,040 I went round there this morning after the Lawson interview. 310 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,480 The man's struggling. 311 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,600 30 years ago, do you remember, 312 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,840 you had that offer of work in California? 313 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,200 And we came here to talk about it, about the kids moving school. 314 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:08,320 What it would all mean. 315 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,960 And you got so excited. 316 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,840 Not about going, but about staying. 317 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,120 About what that meant. 318 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,600 Do you remember? 319 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,600 Philip, if I can remember, I know you do. 320 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,040 "It's going to be important," that's what you said. 321 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,520 Politicians were just starting to talk about global warming, 322 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,920 and you said that when they finally came to act on it, 323 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,320 they'd needed data they could trust. 324 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,040 They'd need evidence, and that you, CRU, would be 325 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,160 able to give it to them. 326 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,160 Well, that time is now, Philip. 327 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:59,000 And you were right. 328 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,480 They do need your evidence. 329 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,240 Which is why we can't let these bastards destroy all you've done. 330 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:15,280 It's too important. 331 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,240 You're too important. 332 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,040 "I've found what I can do, Ruth." 333 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,280 That's what you said. 334 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,240 "And the place I can do it." 335 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,920 God, and I so wanted to go to California! 336 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,960 Did you? Yeah! RUTH LAUGHS 337 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,320 You're going to have to speak up, Philip. 338 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,280 We'll issue a press statement with Phil's comment from the website. 339 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,040 And let's see if he'll do a press Association interview, at least. 340 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,600 Just print, no TV. 341 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,040 Let's announce an independent inquiry into the allegations 342 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,760 and into the actions of our staff. 343 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,320 If there has been malpractice, 344 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,080 we must show we're keen as mustard to investigate. 345 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,840 And we need support, too. 346 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,920 Public support. 347 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:41,040 Thanks, Chris. Any help in releasing the data is hugely appreciated. 348 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,280 We were wondering if your department could give a statement to... 349 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,440 I'll see what I can do. We really need help on this one, Chris. 350 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,400 Trevor, sorry, look, I've got to go. 351 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,680 Sir David, have you seen the CRU fallout? 352 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,200 Christ, haven't I? 353 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,520 What the bloody hell were they thinking about? 354 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,800 I mean, I wouldn't accept such loose practices from my students. 355 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,640 Well, siege mentality. I mean, the deniers have had him 356 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,960 in their sights for as long as I can remember. That is... 357 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,720 ..precisely when you have to be careful, 358 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,080 when you think you're in a battle. 359 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,120 I mean, not to put the data in the public domain. 360 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,480 Well, to be fair, Sir David, it isn't theirs to give. 361 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:12,880 What do you mean? 362 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,280 Well, CRU built its models on data from meteorological services. 363 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,160 And sometimes, that data comes with nondisclosure agreements. 364 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,400 Sir David King, School of Enterprise and the Environment, 365 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,160 Oxford University. 366 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,560 Thanks very much. 367 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,600 I've been on the phone all morning to the Met Office, 368 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,400 putting pressure on them to give clearance to release all the data. 369 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,640 And? Not yet. 370 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,640 Any news about the hack? 371 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,000 Nothing I've heard. Any thoughts? 372 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,520 Well, take your pick. 373 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,800 Could be the Russians, the Saudis, the oil companies, 374 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,320 anybody who's got money in the game. But you know, it's clever, 375 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,200 going after the data behind the modelling. 376 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,160 I don't understand why everyone 377 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,120 expects science models to be perfect. 378 00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:59,560 I mean, no-one ever goes after economic models, do they? 379 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,920 No, that's because nobody's trying to undermine the economics. 380 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,560 LIFT BELL PINGS 381 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,600 Do you really think it will affect the COP in Copenhagen? 382 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,760 Well, it might scare the horses a bit, 383 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,840 but no, this COP is dead in the water anyway. 384 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,720 You really think so? Come on, Chris. 385 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,120 I mean, the USA are not going to sign up to their commitment 386 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:21,880 to carbon reductions unless it's voluntary, and 387 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,880 if they won't sign, then neither will the Chinese or the Russians. 388 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,800 Look, do what you can about getting the Met to release that data. 389 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,320 It could douse the flames. 390 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,240 Now, the head of a British climate research institute has 391 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,680 stepped aside after leaked emails were said to suggest that the 392 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,680 case for global warming had been exaggerated. 393 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,640 Phil Jones, at the University of East Anglia, will relinquish 394 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,320 his duties while an independent review is carried out. 395 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,920 Our environment correspondent, David Shukman... 396 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,600 There are more stolen emails. No, I... I'm saying there's a lot more. 397 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,120 Almost 200,000 in total. Shit! 200...? 398 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,840 So, the really odd thing, that they left the cache on the server. 399 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,360 Which is almost like they, well... 400 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,280 I guess it's almost like they wanted us to know. What are you saying? 401 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,560 Well, it means that CRU wasn't 402 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,240 the only climate unit that was attacked. 403 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,080 There were more hacks? Attempts. 404 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,040 CRU was the only successful breach. 405 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,800 What were the other attempts? 406 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,360 OK, so, persons unknown posing as network technicians tried to 407 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,120 gain access to climate science offices at the University 408 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:20,120 of Victoria, British Columbia. 409 00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:22,800 And there were attempts to access the servers at the Canadian 410 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,880 Centre for Climatology and Analysis, the National Center 411 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,680 of Atmospheric Research in Colorado, 412 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,600 and an attempted unauthorised entry 413 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,000 to the computer systems at the State Department Climate Bureau. 414 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,240 And when, when was all this? This is all in the last 12 months. 415 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,000 You do know he's the victim? 416 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,640 It's his emails that were stolen. 417 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,240 It's him that's being dragged through the papers. 418 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,040 Why aren't you going after who did this? 419 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,720 I realise this must be upsetting. No-one's getting the truth. 420 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,400 Just what they read, what they hear. 421 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:04,240 Where are you going? Just down to the station. We just... Why? 422 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,840 We need to print the statement and have it signed immediately. 423 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,120 Well, use our bloody printer! Ruth, it's fine. 424 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:12,200 We'll be 30 minutes, I promise. 425 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,640 This hockey stick graph, the one that you 426 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,200 mention in the interview, why is it so important exactly? 427 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,480 Well, it's... 428 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,360 It's a reconstruction of global temperature, a... 429 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:35,680 ..a window into the past, I suppose, back 1,000 years. 430 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,040 All these are decades here. 431 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:52,480 That is the handle of the stick. 432 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,440 And here, in the 19th century, when industrialisation takes off, 433 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,040 erm, up until now, that's the... 434 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,560 ..erm, that's the blade, when temperatures increase dramatically. 435 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,920 This is your work? Well, I contributed. 436 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,320 CRU was the first unit to be dedicated to the 437 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,200 subject of climate change. 438 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,600 We devoted more time than anyone else to... 439 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,320 ..to, erm...gather the temperature data. 440 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,640 It's not just from across the world, but from across time. 441 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,360 Wow. 442 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,800 From before we had thermometer readings, erm... 443 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,640 ..historical, erm, records, ships' logs. 444 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,720 And then even further back, er, proxy data, such as tree rings 445 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,240 and ice cores. I saw the tree rings on the walls of your office. 446 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,000 They're beautiful. 447 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,520 Well, we... Erm... 448 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,000 ..all of that, the proxy and historical data goes into the graph. 449 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,440 That's... It, erm... 450 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,240 ..helps make the past... 451 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,520 ..readable. 452 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,000 Best get you home, yeah. 453 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,160 Thank you. 454 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,880 Who's doing this, Trevor? Who knows? 455 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,160 Plenty of vested interests would like Copenhagen to fail. 456 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,240 I know why they're doing it to us, though. 457 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,040 The hockey stick graph. Yes...? 458 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,640 The one showing the rise in global temperatures? 459 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,400 Yeah, CRU's work has been keystone to that graph. 460 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,520 I mean, it was meant to be the final word in the debate. 461 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,520 The science behind it is complex, 462 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,800 though the way it conveys it is simple, it cuts through the noise. 463 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,040 That's what the sceptics don't like. 464 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,920 Ever since it was published, they've known, if they're to keep 465 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,080 the debate going, they have to cast doubt on the hockey stick. 466 00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,520 Crafty buggers. 467 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,480 Sorry. That was a long one. 468 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,520 Must have done over 20 interviews now. 469 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,320 It's like speaking into a storm. 470 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,200 No-one can hear us. 471 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,000 Or wants to. 472 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,080 We're being drowned out by a sigh of relief. 473 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,360 Relief? 474 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,200 Well, imagine if you woke up tomorrow to be told you don't 475 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,040 have to worry about climate change. 476 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,800 Millions of dollars have gone into the denial campaigns. 477 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,720 And most of it to achieve exactly this, 478 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,920 to make the science seem uncertain. 479 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,760 It's been going on for years, 480 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,360 ever since we first started talking about actually doing 481 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,720 something about global warming. Which was when, exactly? 482 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,720 Oh, late '80s. So those campaigns... 483 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,960 ..essentially, they bought themselves time with those millions. 484 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,080 They've had decades to prepare a receptive environment. 485 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,160 Whoever hacked into us... 486 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,760 All they had to do was release those emails in the right places 487 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,720 and sit back and watch. 488 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,880 They've had 20 years to prepare for this. We've had days. 489 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,680 We need crisis management advice. 490 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,360 It's a straight choice. Duck it or fight it. 491 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,920 But how do we fight it if the world wants Phil and the data 492 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,000 and we can't provide either. 493 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,840 OK, well, if Phil can't do the interviews, then you have to. 494 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,440 What about the independent inquiry? 495 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,920 No-one gets hacked for the sake of it. There's always intent. 496 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,640 The UN Climate Conference, the COP, it opens next week, right? 497 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,320 Yes. So, it's a strategy. 498 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,840 Someone's decided to take positive action to... 499 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,800 We don't actually know if that's the case. Nothing's a coincidence. 500 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,720 Sow doubt where there's certainty, 501 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,120 apply a minor inconsistency to the entire evidence, discredit 502 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:54,480 a group of people, muddy the debate, all to achieve policy outcry. 503 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,600 It's hardly new. 504 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,920 Straight out of the tobacco companies' playbook 505 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,440 when they were stalling for time on cigarettes and cancer. Mm. 506 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,440 Other interest groups have used the same strategies around 507 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,000 pesticides, the ozone hole, acid rain. 508 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,080 It's not like we haven't seen these tactics before. No. 509 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,440 Never with the internet. The blocks. 510 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,280 Yeah, that IS new. I'll admit there's no playbook for that. 511 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:26,880 Look... 512 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,680 This isn't going to be easy. 513 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,400 For a start, you're a...white, middle-aged, posh man. Hm. 514 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,520 It's going to be hard for you to go on TV and come across as likeable. 515 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,400 Yes... 516 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:44,800 Yes, I see. 517 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:47,960 It's your only choice. 518 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,480 Do nothing now... 519 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,840 ..that's as good as being guilty. 520 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,840 Now, it's hard to believe that some emails written on a university 521 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,480 campus in Norwich could be quite so damaging. 522 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,880 Today, Saudi Arabia's chief climate change negotiator, no less, 523 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,600 said the leaked emails from scientists at the Climate 524 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,080 Research Unit at the University of East Anglia will have a huge 525 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,560 impact on next week's Copenhagen summit, even as it's... 526 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,400 You shouldn't be watching that. Why not? It's what I've done. 527 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,040 That's not true. 528 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,920 They've finally found a way to get me, Ruth. 529 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,000 And they'll, well... 530 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,560 ..pull at this thread until it all unravels! 531 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,000 They've won, Ruth. No. They haven't! 532 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,480 They know the truth is out there now. 533 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,600 So all they can do is try to find ways of delaying how soon it 534 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:08,840 reaches everyone. 535 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,200 That's not the actions of people who've won. Philip, 536 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,560 that's the desperation of people who've lost. 537 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,520 You're forgetting something. 538 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,400 What? 539 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,400 Not everyone wants the truth to reach them. 540 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,840 So, what do you think? I think they're screwed. 541 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:26,720 The blogs I get and the American right wing networks, 542 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,200 but the mainstream media following their lead... 543 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,240 The BBC, for Christ's sake! 544 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:34,800 Which is why we need to get him out there. Phil? 545 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,880 We need to put a human face on this, before the House of Commons hearing. 546 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,960 Get the public back on our side. He could barely talk. 547 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,240 Which is why it has to be print. 548 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:46,680 No TV. 549 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,400 You're serious? We'll have to coach him. 550 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,600 Sunday Times, front page. Do you think they'll take it? 551 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,040 They'll love it! 552 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,000 It's what they've been baying for, isn't it? 553 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,680 The man at the heart of it. 554 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,320 Edward tried his best, but no-one wanted to know. 555 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,480 So we throw them to the lions. 556 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,880 With a couple of lion tamers in the room. 557 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,760 But yeah, if it means we're the ones feeding them for a bit. 558 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,640 That's exactly what we do. 559 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,120 No time for anything else. 560 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,520 Not with that House of Commons committee breathing down our necks. 561 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,000 We'll coach him here. Today. 562 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,160 Are you sure this is the right...? I'm positive. 563 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,360 Unless you want to cut him loose. Out of the question. 564 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:40,920 Well, I had to check. 565 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,920 Because if it's the reputation of the university you're trying 566 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,480 to save... It isn't. 567 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:53,560 It isn't? Well, yes, it is, but that's no longer the priority. 568 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,680 This is about more than the university now. 569 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,520 Much more. The science? 570 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,160 The truth. Right. That's what's at stake here. 571 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,880 And who gets to tell the truth, 572 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,640 or not, 573 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,440 about something that affects every living thing on the planet. 574 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,800 Mea culpa. That's what you open with, before anything else. 575 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,000 I'll brief the journalists to ask about the data stuff first, 576 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,680 the Freedom of Information request. When he does, you put your hands up. 577 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,760 Admit you got it wrong... But those requests, they weren't genuine. 578 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,760 Yes, we know... The data was already... 579 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,520 But admitting that you got frustrated, 580 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,160 you could have handled it better, that's very relatable. Yeah. 581 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,800 Getting pissed off with a bunch of timewasters who want to prove 582 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,720 you wrong, there's no shame in that. No data was destroyed. 583 00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:52,360 And that's exactly what you'll say, 584 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,000 after you've acknowledged what you could have done better. 585 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,480 You say it then and people will listen. It'll sound true. 586 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:04,680 It is true. 587 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,720 But I need to believe you when you say it is. 588 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:11,520 That's all that matters. 589 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,800 Right, so, we take a little bit of this and pop it in here. 590 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,680 And then, if you take your finger and poke a nice hole in there. 591 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,840 That's it. And then, what do you think you do? 592 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,920 Put an acorn in? Yes. Just the one. 593 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,400 There. Maybe a little bit more. 594 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:45,560 So, a trick is just a clever way of doing something. 595 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,320 In statistical modelling, yes, or in maths, a short cut. 596 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,320 It still sounds suspect. A trick of the trade? A technique? 597 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,560 If you like, a solution to a problem. 598 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,880 But nothing more? No. Good. 599 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,400 But then, we get to hide the decline. 600 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,640 Sent everyone through the roof, this one, hasn't it? 601 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,200 Sarah Palin, the US networks, the papers. 602 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,000 What's your defence? 603 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,080 Because it had better be a bloody good one. 604 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,760 In as few words as possible, simple and short. 605 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,440 And in a way I'll believe it. 606 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:23,520 It's about tree rings. 607 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,320 What? 608 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,360 Well, the decline. 609 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,480 It isn't about temperatures. 610 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:30,920 Go on. 611 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,560 To predict the future, we've got to understand the past. 612 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,840 Hubert Lamb's... I'm not interested. Try again. 613 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,760 Go on, Phil. 614 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,320 Temperature records consist of two kinds of measurements. 615 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,880 From around the mid 19th century, we have actual instrument recordings... 616 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,200 Try it as a question. 617 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,520 Um... 618 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,600 How do we obtain measurements from further back, 619 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,360 from before we have instrument recordings? Good! I have no idea. 620 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,840 Educate me. How do we? We use, um, proxy data... Sorry, Phil. 621 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,360 How else might you explain "proxy"? What is it? Um... 622 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,640 The... 623 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,480 The natural world has a memory. 624 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:38,080 It can preserve the physical characteristics of the past. 625 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:43,000 Past temperatures? Er, yes. Um, and weather events. 626 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,000 What kind of characteristics? 627 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,880 Well, concentrations of oxygen isotopes in ice. 628 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,400 Or the composition and annual banding in corals. 629 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,040 Or the... The width and the density of annual tree ring growth. 630 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:00,600 Tree rings? 631 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:07,200 Yes, they're wider in a season of good growth, when it's warmer, 632 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,320 and narrower in a season of restricted growth, when it's colder. 633 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,760 So, you add this stuff, natural characteristics, to the 634 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,800 instrument measurements and you get a record of temperatures 635 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,480 stretching back in time before thermometers? 636 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,120 It isn't quite that simple. Put simply, though, is Neil right? 637 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,040 Well, yes. 638 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,800 So, what's being hidden, then, in the paper, 639 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,040 you were discussing in that email? 640 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,840 I was writing about one diagram, 641 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,560 not a scientific paper. Phil, split any more hairs and I'll go bald. 642 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,600 It's OK, Phil. Just try to answer the question. 643 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,880 What were you hiding? 644 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,960 This is the diagram. 645 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,280 The blue line is the hockey stick, 646 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,800 the red line is my own similar reconstructions 647 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,440 and the green line was produced by my colleague, Keith Briffa, 648 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,560 using tree ring density data. 649 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:29,480 Keith's data produced similar results to my own reconstruction, 650 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:34,240 until 1960, when it began to diverge. 651 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:36,560 Diverge? What do you mean? 652 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,480 Well, the real temperatures increase sharply after 1960. 653 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,840 But the tree rings got narrower, less dense, 654 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,680 as if the temperature was decreasing, getting colder. 655 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,680 Why would they do that? Well, we're not sure. Um... 656 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,840 Acid rain, or the depletion in the ozone layer, but whatever 657 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,600 the cause, the tree ring data 658 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,760 becomes unreliable after 1960. 659 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,880 But if it's unreliable then, how do we know it was any good before? 660 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,640 Its match to previous instrument readings were strong 661 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:17,800 and universal all through the 19th and 20th century until 1960. 662 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,720 But on the graph, there's no divergence? Yes, and... 663 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,560 ..I knew that the data became unreliable, 664 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:31,920 so I included only the real temperatures in the green line. 665 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,520 To hide the decline. 666 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,880 In tree ring density. But not the temperature? 667 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,320 Well... There was no decline in temperature to hide. 668 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,440 Every thermometer in the world will say the opposite. 669 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,680 The temperatures were rising all through that period. 670 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,320 And they still are. 671 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,520 Jesus! 672 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,360 They really screwed you over, didn't they? 673 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,920 Both down? Flat out. 674 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,760 So, how's he doing, your scientist? 675 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,800 Not too great, to be honest. 676 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,040 And who do you think did this to him? 677 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:14,600 The hack? 678 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,480 Who knows? 679 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:22,040 But whoever's behind what's happened since knows their stuff. 680 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,080 I mean, a few months ago, there was consensus on global warming. 681 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,240 Now, headlines across the world. 682 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,040 Could have all just happened? 683 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,680 Might not be anyone behind it at all. 684 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:42,520 Some big players have had plans for ages. Oil companies, especially. 685 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,000 They all want to stop the science getting out there. 686 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,120 What's so crazy is they knew more about it than anyone else. 687 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,800 All through the '80s, they had the best climate scientists, 688 00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:58,960 scenario planners... 689 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,840 And these guys, they're telling them, the CEOs, the boards, 690 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:06,680 increasing CO2 in the atmosphere, 691 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:11,400 it's going to be a major problem for the whole world. 692 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:16,120 Extreme weather, food shortages, mass migrations... 693 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,640 So what did they do? 694 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,640 I can't believe I'm saying this, but... 695 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:29,560 ..they took all that, 696 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,560 all that knowledge, which they had more of, in more detail, 697 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,640 and earlier than anyone else, and... 698 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,120 Well, they used it to get ahead of the curve, to come 699 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,560 up with strategies to keep the public uncertain, unconcerned. 700 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,240 What kind of strategies? Front organisations, mostly. 701 00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:51,080 Produce alternative research that backed their message 702 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:52,520 and then pushed it to the media. 703 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,760 Ah, PR then. 704 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,120 Marketing. 705 00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,000 Like what you do. 706 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,200 No, Dad. 707 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,560 At least with what I do, you know who's pitching to you. 708 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,200 When I read the projections about what could happen 709 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:11,560 if we don't do anything... 710 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,920 ..and when I see those dates, 2040 to 2050... 711 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,040 ..I can't help thinking how old the girls will be. 712 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:23,880 What their lives will be like. 713 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,280 How do you know all this? 714 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:29,520 There's a paper trail. 715 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,120 If you know where to look. 716 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,080 You think it's the oil companies, then, stole the emails? 717 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:37,480 Jesus, I don't know, Dad. 718 00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:40,280 It's the internet. 719 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,640 A dark place, filled with darker places. 720 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,600 I just hope we're doing the right thing. 721 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,120 Why wouldn't you be? 722 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,760 This isn't a flagship store, some new trainers. 723 00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,640 If we get this wrong, it's... 724 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,000 It's game over for him. 725 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,960 Give Lily a birthday kiss from me. 726 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,640 Of course. 727 00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:57,240 Um... 728 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,520 Um... 729 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,280 I'm...so sorry, Ruth. 730 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,800 You just call me when it's done... 731 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,000 ..with that journalist. 732 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,640 SHE SOBS 733 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,320 Oh...God! 734 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:01,360 Philip! 735 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:07,280 Good morning. Morning. Morning. How are you? Good. Good. Good. 736 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:10,800 Are you ready? Yep. 737 00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:15,520 You're going to be all right. I'll introduce you to Richard. 738 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,080 Neil! 739 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,200 Thank you, love. 740 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,080 They've done this before, you know. 741 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,000 I'm sorry? Gone after people. Scientists. 742 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,800 Just for doing their job. He'll be fine. I promise. 743 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:33,160 I don't want your promises. 744 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,600 I want to be sure you know what you're doing. Yes, we do. 745 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,120 I've been in this game a long time. But it isn't! 746 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,240 Don't you see that? Not to us. I'm sorry, I... A game. 747 00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:45,520 That's not what I meant. That man in there, 748 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,960 the man you're about to let the press at... Yeah. 749 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,240 ..the press who've dragged him through the mud for months, he's my husband. 750 00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:54,400 A father, a grandfather, someone who's tried to spend his whole 751 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,440 life getting closer to the truth. His work is important. I... 752 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,440 HE is important! So I bloody well hope you do know what you're doing 753 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,560 because this might be just a job to you, but for us, 754 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,320 we could lose everything! Do you understand? Everything! 755 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,200 Do you have any regrets? 756 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,000 Well, I regret that I didn't deal with 757 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,480 the Freedom of Information request in a better way. 758 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,440 I... I misjudged the situation. 759 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:47,320 How, exactly? 760 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:48,800 Well, um... 761 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,600 According to the rules, we're supposed to do 18 hours of work 762 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,400 on each one before we're allowed to turn it down and, um, 763 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,160 we received 40 over one weekend, 764 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,040 all requesting the same data from five different countries. 765 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,360 We were being targeted. You think they wanted to waste your time? 766 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,680 Well, the data was available elsewhere. 767 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,520 They were trying to slow us down, take us away from our work. 768 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,080 And the messages you sent about deleting the data? 769 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:24,360 Er, well, er... It wasn't data. It was emails and, um... 770 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,040 Well, that was... 771 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:27,840 That was... Um... 772 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,080 Er... 773 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,320 Frustration, um... 774 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,160 They were written in anger. 775 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:39,360 But you did destroy the data? 776 00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:46,080 Um, no. It wasn't our data to destroy. It... We interpret it. 777 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:47,880 We don't create or collect it. 778 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,160 So when the story broke, this was all just before the 779 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,440 UN Climate Conference in Copenhagen, right? Yes. 780 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:57,880 Did that worry you? 781 00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,280 That your emails might be responsible for undermining 782 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,320 the talks two months ago? Yes. Yes, it did. 783 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,200 An opportunity the world cannot afford to miss. 784 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,960 The UN Climate Conference gets under way in Copenhagen. 785 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:11,280 The mood music is positive 786 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,360 and thousands of people have converged on Copenhagen, 787 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,720 hoping that some sort of historic deal might be within reach, 788 00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:21,200 but there are a whole range of really... 789 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,400 Surely, the CRU emails are going to undermine the talks, aren't they? 790 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,800 The UN's chief climate scientist has already said as such. 791 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,720 Look, I'm a member of the UK negotiating team. 792 00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:33,040 I know how this process works. 793 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,920 These negotiators are grown ups. They know their science. 794 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,960 Some fabricated scandal is not going to affect their opinion. 795 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,560 The Saudi negotiator has already said the emails questions 796 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,640 the validity of this conference. 797 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,680 Well, considering he's had breakfast with a different oil company 798 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,040 every morning this week, I suppose he would, wouldn't he? 799 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,120 Look, these talks might fail, 800 00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,520 but it's not going to be because of some stolen emails. 801 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,960 Any thoughts on who might have stolen the emails? 802 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,920 Well, it seems coordinated, so I... 803 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:07,880 It could be an intelligence operation. 804 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:12,000 The file was loaded on a server in Tomsk. Do you think this was Russia? 805 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:13,920 Oh, yes, absolutely. 806 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,600 Well, I have seen first-hand how active 807 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,960 they can be in stifling the science of global warming, 808 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,640 but equally, it could also be the American oil lobby system. 809 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,000 After all, they are the main source of finance behind these sort of things. 810 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,760 So you really think whoever did this wasn't trying to derail the talks? 811 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,800 Was it a coincidence that these emails were released 812 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,720 just before this COP? Absolutely not! 813 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,840 But it's public opinion they're trying to influence, 814 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,720 not these negotiations. 815 00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:50,720 That's what will affect policy, so no, 816 00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:53,600 this conference is not their target, 817 00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,160 but it is their stage. 818 00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:01,240 The, um, hockey stick is shattered beyond repair. 819 00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:05,000 And we're talking about it today because of Climategate. 820 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:09,360 It's a huge deal. Don't take my word for it. 821 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,120 Just do an internet search and here's what you find. 822 00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:16,240 George Monbiot in the Guardian, 823 00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:21,600 "Pretending this is not a real crisis isn't going to make it 824 00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,840 "go away. Phil Jones has got to go." 825 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:30,320 Christopher Brooker, the UK Telegraph, "This is the worst 826 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,920 "scientific scandal of our generation." 827 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:40,880 The scientists involved in the CRU controversy violated 828 00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:45,480 fundamental ethical principles, governing taxpayer funded research. 829 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,560 And in some cases, may have violated federal laws. 830 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,200 Now, for this reason, 831 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:56,440 I am calling for the following key players to be investigated 832 00:55:56,440 --> 00:56:01,480 with possible referral to the US Justice Department for prosecution - 833 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,080 Phil Jones, Keith Briffa. 834 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,040 CRASHING WAVE 835 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:38,480 And, um... 836 00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,240 ..some of these messages you received... 837 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,480 ..were they death threats? Yes. 838 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:51,720 And if you don't mind me asking... 839 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:54,840 ..what would they say, exactly? 840 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,800 Well, that they knew where I lived. 841 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,280 That... 842 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:06,560 ..I should kill myself. 843 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:10,160 And if I didn't... 844 00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,440 ..they'd do it for me. 845 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,360 And did, um... 846 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:23,640 Did you ever think about that? 847 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:26,680 About suicide? 848 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:34,040 Yes. 849 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:37,920 Several times. 850 00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,520 And what, um... I know this is difficult. 851 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:48,320 But what stopped you? 852 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:01,880 Lily. 853 00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,360 Lily. 854 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,880 CHILD'S LAUGHTER 855 00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,720 Think, Mrs Jones, somewhere he goes regularly to, you know, mull 856 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,000 over stuff, of to get away from things? No. No, not without... 857 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,920 Not... Philip? CAR PULLING UP 858 00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,760 You... You... SOBBING 859 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:17,800 All right, all right. 860 00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,640 All right, I've got you. 861 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:24,680 I've got you. 862 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,560 How did it go? What did you tell them? 863 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,680 Oh, just everything that we talked about. Good. And... 864 00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:40,800 And what, Philip? 865 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,680 Well, and, um... 866 00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,840 About when I, um... 867 00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:52,640 Went... When I didn't, you know, um... When's it going out? 868 00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:56,480 Tomorrow. Well, I mean, I can... Nana! I'm sure they won't use it. 869 00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,240 Do you want me to call Neil? I can... I can... 870 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:04,240 Tell him that... I'm going to have to warn Matthew. Why? 871 01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,040 Ruth... Why? 872 01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:08,760 Because now they'll know you've got a granddaughter. 873 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,240 Those people. They'll know about Lily. 874 01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,040 You... You call Neil and we'll speak later. Well... 875 01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:18,200 But... 876 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,200 You didn't ask them to remove the suicide stuff? It's the best bit. 877 01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:38,600 Takes the heat off Phil for a week or two. 878 01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:41,040 Puts a face to it. A life. 879 01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,360 Reminds people he's a person, a grandfather. 880 01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,360 That's what we need before the hearing. 881 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,640 What about the hack? Who did this? How did they do it? 882 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,600 Why did they do it? I mean, where are the interviews with the security 883 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,320 correspondents, cyber experts? 884 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,680 Not the story. Since when is the crime not the story? 885 01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:27,760 When what it achieved is more interesting. 886 01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,560 Have you seen these poll figures from the US, 887 01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,120 conducted in the months after the leak went viral? 888 01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:38,760 "59% of Americans say scientists have falsified research data to 889 01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,120 "support their beliefs about global warming. 890 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,400 "Only 26% take the opposite view." 891 01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,280 It's worked, hasn't it? Yeah. 892 01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,440 What we need is a proper deflection, someone to point the finger at. 893 01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,280 A likely suspect for who did the hack, or who was behind it. 894 01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,960 The hacker gave the emails file names, linked to the date 895 01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,920 and time that the email was sent. 896 01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:08,240 They must have written a program to extract the date and time from 897 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,880 the text and a tool to convert that to the number of seconds elapsed. 898 01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,000 If the times when the email was sent 899 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,120 and the time zone on the computer the hacker was using to process 900 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,960 the emails differed, then the file name generator will be incorrect. 901 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:26,680 For example, an email sent from Greenwich Mean Time would 902 01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:28,840 give us an error of five hours. 903 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,640 Now, this five hour mismatch could be later, 904 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:37,240 placing the location in this time zone, Russia and Pakistan, 905 01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:41,400 or earlier, in this location, on the East Coast of America. 906 01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:47,160 Now, emails from this time zone give us an error or zero hours. 907 01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,440 Indicating that's where the emails were processed? 908 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,040 East Coast of the US? 909 01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,040 Yes. Well, that's going to go down well, isn't it? 910 01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,840 Now, it is possible that the hacker reset his computer to avoid 911 01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:02,400 detection. What's GCHQ's input? 912 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,960 They confirm the Department of Energy 913 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,480 and Climate Change has been an intelligence collection 914 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,040 target for China and Russia, but in terms of active state action 915 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,360 and these kind of tactics, in this area... 916 01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,480 Why do the dirty work yourself, if you can pull the strings remotely? 917 01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,080 Smart. 918 01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,520 And if we follow the money, where does that take us? 919 01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,360 Well, Russia does have a huge oil industry. 920 01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,920 And with the melting of the ice caps, it is 921 01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:29,720 looking to exploit the Arctic, but... 922 01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,760 Yes, if you really want to follow the money, it takes us 923 01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,360 back here, to the US. 924 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,360 Oil lobbies. Exxon, Koch Brothers. 925 01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,440 They're the ones with real skin in the game. 926 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,040 Someone out there knows who did this. 927 01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:45,880 Who the gun for hire hacker was and who was paying them. 928 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,000 How the hell are we meant to find them, 929 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,120 if the internet makes a joke of the search? 930 01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:05,600 OK, let's try again. 931 01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,360 Like this... 932 01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:10,880 The facts are this. 933 01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,040 The facts are this. 934 01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:22,960 This is a House of Commons select committee. They'll be out for meat. 935 01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:24,720 You've got to get them on side. 936 01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,480 You do know what's at stake here? 937 01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:36,480 Oh... 938 01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:40,720 What I don't get is, this is all you've ever done. 939 01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:45,080 For the last 30 years, you've stuck it out, you've been loyal, whatever. 940 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,720 This has been your life! 941 01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,920 I mean, don't you care?! 942 01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:52,240 Yes. 943 01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:57,000 What? Yes! I do care! 944 01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:00,640 Maybe... 945 01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:04,840 Phil. 946 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,160 Phil? 947 01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:37,680 What do you want me not to say? 948 01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:45,440 I don't want you not to say anything. 949 01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:50,160 I just want you to tell the truth. 950 01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:53,480 But in a way that it can be understood. Short answers. 951 01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:54,880 No jargon. 952 01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:05,600 Why does this all matter? 953 01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:07,040 What? 954 01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:08,720 Well... 955 01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:12,240 Because what's... What they... 956 01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:17,360 Because it isn't true. 957 01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:19,360 Right. But beyond that? 958 01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:22,560 What happens if they win? 959 01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:26,280 What happens if everyone ignores your measurements, your graphs? 960 01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,040 Well... 961 01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:34,680 I suppose we'll just carry on emitting more greenhouse gases. 962 01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,720 Global temperatures will continue to increase. 963 01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:40,120 And if we do that, what actually happens? 964 01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:44,480 Well, the projection hasn't changed. It's still the same. 965 01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:46,000 The same as what? 966 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:49,440 As when US scientists first studied it in the '70s. 967 01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:51,800 Go on. 968 01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:57,440 Well, a doubling of CO2 emissions in the atmosphere will 969 01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:01,880 result in a 1.5 to 4.5 degree increase. 970 01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:05,080 In what? Average surface temperature. 971 01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:12,440 Polar amplification will mean that melting in the poles will be greater. 972 01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,240 Maybe as much as ten degrees. 973 01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:18,640 What happens, Phil, 974 01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,520 for our children 975 01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:24,720 and their children? No numbers, just the consequences. 976 01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:34,600 Well... 977 01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:38,280 By 2100, 978 01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:43,200 dust bowl conditions across North America and Africa, 979 01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:45,000 Asia too. 980 01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:51,480 Sooner than that, a massive reduction in agricultural 981 01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,960 production, access to drinking water, 982 01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,360 migration in huge numbers. 983 01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:00,520 Um... 984 01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:07,080 Bushfires on a massive scale in Australia, the West Coast. 985 01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:14,840 Annual melting at the poles, the West Antarctic ice sheet, 986 01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,600 well, because of that, 987 01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:22,040 the global sea level rise of, well... 988 01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:25,080 ..metres. 989 01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:29,840 But what does that all mean for us? People. 990 01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:31,560 Make me see it, Phil. 991 01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:33,280 Well... 992 01:08:34,440 --> 01:08:36,040 In this worst case scenario... 993 01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:42,520 ..70% of the habitable world will no longer be able to sustain 994 01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:44,000 human life. 995 01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:49,040 Millions of species will become extinct. 996 01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,320 And coastal and delta cities will be underwater. 997 01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:57,200 And, well... 998 01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:04,040 ..if the methane in the permafrost and on the seabed is released, 999 01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:05,240 well... 1000 01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:07,360 Yes? 1001 01:09:10,440 --> 01:09:12,320 The climate will collapse. 1002 01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:16,920 And the world as we know it... 1003 01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:20,600 ..will be gone. 1004 01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:37,160 Now, we know there are some people out there who think 1005 01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:40,280 everything you've just said is bollocks. 1006 01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:42,960 Maybe even some of the hearing committee, who knows? 1007 01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,160 But if you can remember everything you just said 1008 01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:50,560 when you're answering them, no matter how dry those answers are... 1009 01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:54,520 ..then we don't have to worry about it. 1010 01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:03,880 Let's take a break. 1011 01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:11,000 Anything? 1012 01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,040 It's the same names cropping up again and again. 1013 01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:18,320 With tobacco in the '70s, acid rain in the '80s, 1014 01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:20,080 and now with global warming. 1015 01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:23,160 It's not just the same strategy, it's the same bloody people. 1016 01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:27,920 But all this now with Phil, the emails, it's just... 1017 01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,960 The latest battle in the longer war. 1018 01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:36,880 It always is, son. 1019 01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:40,120 You'll come to see that. 1020 01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:44,160 It always is. 1021 01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:53,280 They're going to tear him apart. 1022 01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,160 We've still got a couple more days. 1023 01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,360 We'll have to rehearse the hell out of him. 1024 01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:05,000 Choreograph it step by step. 1025 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,240 Royal Ballet will have nothing on us by the time we're done. 1026 01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:24,880 So why not release the data? Shouldn't everyone get to see it? 1027 01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,200 Don't focus on how you feel, focus on how you come across. 1028 01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:32,200 How is someone sitting there on the other side seeing you? 1029 01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:36,560 The select committee hearing is your only chance to defend yourself. 1030 01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:38,520 So, how is that right, 1031 01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:41,520 to stop other scientists publishing their findings? 1032 01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,680 Weren't you just using your position to quash other opinions? 1033 01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:51,040 Yes or no, did you ask your colleagues to delete emails? 1034 01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:53,200 There was no manipulation, yup... 1035 01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:56,640 So you've been manipulating the historic records, is that right? 1036 01:11:56,640 --> 01:12:02,680 So, there was no manipulation, just adjustment in the pursuit 1037 01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:06,680 of accuracy because that's how science works. 1038 01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,400 That's...how we get to the truth. 1039 01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,840 SLOW CLAPPING 1040 01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,520 APPLAUSE 1041 01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,320 Well done, Phil. Well done! 1042 01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:33,600 How are you feeling? 1043 01:12:45,480 --> 01:12:46,840 Just show them who you are. 1044 01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:49,720 What else can I do? No, I... 1045 01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:56,400 Do you remember when we first met? 1046 01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,040 In the halls of residence? 1047 01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:04,560 I was playing darts and your room was on the other side of the wall. 1048 01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:07,720 You came out to ask us to be quiet. It was... It was distracting. 1049 01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:09,200 I know! 1050 01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:18,160 The way you asked us, the way you carried yourself. 1051 01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:21,120 I could tell straight away, here was a good man. 1052 01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:26,240 A kind man. 1053 01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:29,800 A man of integrity. 1054 01:13:33,480 --> 01:13:36,760 All the pieces of that man are still here, Philip... 1055 01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:42,320 ..which means so is he. 1056 01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:48,080 That's who I want you to show them. 1057 01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:27,120 You'll be fine, Phil. Watch your shoe. 1058 01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:36,480 Here we are. OK, so, good luck gentlemen. You're not coming in? 1059 01:14:36,480 --> 01:14:39,840 Not going to help your cause if the press see me in there. 1060 01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:41,840 Keep to the brief. Good luck. 1061 01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:47,760 This is the only day of verbal evidence for the select committee 1062 01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:50,280 and they're keen to hear from their star witness, 1063 01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,920 the former head of the climate research unit at the University 1064 01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:58,080 of East Anglia, and the subject of many of those emails, Phil Jones. 1065 01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:01,680 This is the first time he's come under close public scrutiny. 1066 01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:06,760 So, shall we begin, Professor Jones, Professor Acton? 1067 01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:11,600 Thank you. I do have a general statement I'd like to make. No. 1068 01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:13,600 No general statements, please. 1069 01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,760 Oh, Jesus! Just answer the questions when you're asked them. 1070 01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:23,600 Perhaps I could just go back to one of Lord Lawson's earlier comments. 1071 01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:25,000 What did I miss? 1072 01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:29,320 That without an understanding of the methodology, that the 1073 01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:33,880 peer review system is rather defunct? 1074 01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:37,760 Well, the, um... 1075 01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:41,240 The methods are published in the 1076 01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:44,440 scientific papers, um, that... 1077 01:15:44,440 --> 01:15:47,600 That... That... Relatively simple. 1078 01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:51,440 There's nothing sort of rocket science about them. They're... 1079 01:15:51,440 --> 01:15:56,200 Can you explain your email exchange on the 21st of January 2005, 1080 01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:59,560 when you say you aren't going to... How are they doing? 1081 01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:03,360 Not bad. ..Find something wrong with it? 1082 01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:07,640 That's the nature of scientific pursuits, isn't it? 1083 01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:11,760 Well, I've obviously written some very awful emails. CHUCKLING 1084 01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:20,200 Let's get you home. 1085 01:18:00,440 --> 01:18:02,080 You found him. 1086 01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:32,720 ..To look at the key works of CRU, 1087 01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:36,880 to reaffirm the sure-fire quality of the science 1088 01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,600 and my I end by saying just how proud 1089 01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:45,760 I am of the contribution that UEA and CRU in particular has 1090 01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:52,000 made to humanity's ability to understand climate change. 1091 01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:56,480 So, what happens now? 1092 01:18:58,280 --> 01:18:59,640 We wait. 1093 01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:14,480 We wait. 1094 01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:44,800 Ah, Trevor. Do you know what time the select committee will publish their report? 1095 01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:48,600 Some time in the morning, so they said. Right. 1096 01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:54,360 Are you familiar with the Fermi paradox... 1097 01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:59,360 ..the contradiction of lack of evidence for alien life, 1098 01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:04,480 and considering the size and age of the universe, 1099 01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:07,800 the high possibility of its existence? Yes, yes. 1100 01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:09,680 The great science. Yeah. 1101 01:20:12,480 --> 01:20:17,160 I read a paper yesterday that suggested climate change 1102 01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:18,920 might be the answer. 1103 01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:25,160 There have perhaps been other civilisations, thousands... 1104 01:20:26,480 --> 01:20:29,160 ..but they all did what we're doing now, 1105 01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:33,480 became more and more advanced and in doing so... Yes, I see. 1106 01:20:33,480 --> 01:20:35,960 ..burnt themselves out. Bright and brief. 1107 01:20:39,320 --> 01:20:42,320 It does make you wonder, doesn't it, 1108 01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:47,680 if all this we're fighting against is, well... 1109 01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:52,440 ..possibly what we're meant to do? 1110 01:20:52,440 --> 01:20:54,880 I'll admit humanity does have something of a gift 1111 01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:58,040 for normalising great change, 1112 01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:00,520 even when it threatens us. 1113 01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:03,880 But we do also have a gift for survival 1114 01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:08,000 against predators, disease, dictators. 1115 01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:11,680 We do somehow survive. 1116 01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:18,760 Even if how we live is the danger? 1117 01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:21,160 You have to hope so, don't you? 1118 01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:26,800 Goodnight, Trevor. 1119 01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:01,120 "The focus on Professor Phil Jones and CRU has been... 1120 01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:04,880 "Has been misplaced. 1121 01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:10,800 "Within the inquiry, and the evidence we took, 1122 01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:13,640 "the scientific reputation of Professor Jones 1123 01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:15,920 "and CRU remains intact. 1124 01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:19,640 "We have found no reason in this unfortunate episode... 1125 01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:24,720 "..to challenge the scientific consensus that global warming 1126 01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:27,640 "is happening and is induced by human activity. 1127 01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:31,320 "In so far as we've been able to consider accusations of dishonesty, 1128 01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:34,360 "for example, Professor Jones' alleged attempt to hide 1129 01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:36,360 "the decline, we consider there is... 1130 01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:42,680 "There is no case to answer." 1131 01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:11,640 ..The work done by CRU and have no doubt that for all of us, 1132 01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:17,520 our children and our grandchildren, Phil Jones was 1133 01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:22,280 and is the right man in the right place 1134 01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:23,760 at the right time. 1135 01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:27,200 Phil Jones. 1136 01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:29,000 Phil Jones. Phil Jones. 1137 01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:35,960 All the other reports reached the same conclusion. 1138 01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:39,280 There were seven, in total, by the end. 1139 01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:44,840 Even one that no-one knew about, the... 1140 01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:47,640 The United States Environmental Protection Agency? 1141 01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:51,720 "A manufactured controversy". 1142 01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:54,960 That's what they called it. 1143 01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:03,600 For us though, it didn't feel like we could even begin to move on 1144 01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:09,000 until two years later when this big project in California happened. 1145 01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:14,080 Berkeley Earth, it was called, set up to prove Philip's work was wrong. 1146 01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:16,640 Anyway... 1147 01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:21,800 ..they took all the data CRU had used 1148 01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:24,360 and started from scratch. 1149 01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:31,720 With some known sceptics on the team too, even Steve Mosher, 1150 01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:34,440 the man who first picked out those extracts. 1151 01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:38,520 The Trick, Hide the Decline. 1152 01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:40,240 Even him. 1153 01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:43,880 And what do you know? 1154 01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:48,360 Came up with the same results as Philip. 1155 01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:53,120 The same results. 1156 01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:57,720 Phil. 1157 01:25:57,720 --> 01:25:59,840 It's... Sam. 1158 01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:01,520 I remember. 1159 01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:06,040 How are you? 1160 01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:09,320 I'm very good. 1161 01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:11,680 Yes, good, good. Yeah. 1162 01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:13,560 Oh, this is me. 1163 01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,520 Good to see you. And you, Sam. 1164 01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:19,840 Yeah. 1165 01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:21,360 Yeah, take care. 1166 01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:22,840 Yeah, and you. 1167 01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:02,080 Everything that happened back then, the hacking, 1168 01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:03,920 other campaigns, 1169 01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:07,760 it had a significant effect on public opinion. 1170 01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:11,840 Cost us between eight to ten years, according to some studies. 1171 01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:16,920 A decade, so, yes, we could have had 20 years to sort this out, 1172 01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:20,160 but now, we've only got around ten. 1173 01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:21,520 If that. 1174 01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:26,360 And who's pushing hardest for action? 1175 01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:31,840 The children, people Lily's age, which does give me some hope. 1176 01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:38,800 They understand, you see, what needs to be done. 1177 01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:40,400 And who knows? 1178 01:27:40,400 --> 01:27:43,480 If it only took one generation to break the planet, 1179 01:27:43,480 --> 01:27:45,920 why can't it take just one to fix it? 1180 01:27:48,760 --> 01:27:53,520 I know we should have more time, but at least we do still have time. 1181 01:27:56,120 --> 01:27:57,560 Just. 89936

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