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- One night my phone rang.
4
00:00:15,641 --> 00:00:18,300
- You have a prepaid call
from an inmate
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00:00:18,376 --> 00:00:20,343
at the California
State Prison,
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00:00:20,420 --> 00:00:22,146
San Quentin, California.
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00:00:29,846 --> 00:00:32,197
- Bittaker had a series
of heart attacks.
8
00:00:38,647 --> 00:00:40,739
- Teenagers brutally attacked.
9
00:00:40,816 --> 00:00:42,657
Roy Norris
and Lawrence Bittaker...
10
00:00:42,734 --> 00:00:45,202
- Raping and murdering
five teenage girls.
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00:00:45,278 --> 00:00:46,995
- The evil
that these guys caused--
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it really captured the fear
of the city of Los Angeles.
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00:00:50,301 --> 00:00:52,084
- Just a lot more careful
about where I go.
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00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:54,002
- I'm afraid to be walking
down the street.
15
00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:56,096
- Lawrence Bittaker
and his partner, Roy Norris,
16
00:00:56,173 --> 00:00:57,773
were known
as the Toolbox Killers.
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- Bittaker was
the most evil man
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because of that toolbox.
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- Pliers, vise grips,
20
00:01:04,857 --> 00:01:06,973
ice picks.
21
00:01:07,050 --> 00:01:10,069
- I thought Roy Norris
was very strange.
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- I think he hated women.
23
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- He creeped me out.
24
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- I interviewed
Lawrence Bittaker,
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00:01:16,309 --> 00:01:18,051
the most sadistic
serial killer
26
00:01:18,128 --> 00:01:21,305
on San Quentin's death row,
for over five years.
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00:01:25,110 --> 00:01:27,035
He used to say to me, "If
I just had one good parent,
28
00:01:27,112 --> 00:01:28,995
I wouldn't
have become this monster."
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00:01:29,072 --> 00:01:32,541
- The police followed Norris,
and, boy, did they find a lot.
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00:01:32,617 --> 00:01:34,376
- Hundreds of pictures
of young girls
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00:01:34,452 --> 00:01:36,211
were found
in their possession.
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- Everyone one of these
photographs
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represents a potential victim.
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- I thought, "He's gonna
kill me in the courtroom."
35
00:01:43,062 --> 00:01:47,272
- Oh, I thought about killing
Lawrence Bittaker at the trial.
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00:01:47,349 --> 00:01:50,058
I would dream that I had a gun.
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00:01:50,135 --> 00:01:53,728
- He was sexually aroused by
their screams and their cries.
38
00:01:53,805 --> 00:01:56,273
- Bittaker finds out
that she is a virgin.
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He wants to audio-record
the rape of a virgin.
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- They begin to play the tape.
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00:02:08,403 --> 00:02:11,755
- The courtroom was stunned.
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¶ ¶
43
00:02:42,896 --> 00:02:44,237
- I first came
44
00:02:44,314 --> 00:02:46,081
across Lawrence Bittaker
and Roy Norris,
45
00:02:46,158 --> 00:02:47,541
the Toolbox Killers--
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00:02:47,618 --> 00:02:51,453
it was
in a criminology textbook.
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00:02:51,529 --> 00:02:54,039
I remember it like
it was yesterday.
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And I read about what they did
with the van...
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00:02:59,079 --> 00:03:01,463
with the girls,
50
00:03:01,539 --> 00:03:04,007
with the ice pick
through the ears,
51
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and the torture for days.
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And I just remember,
I dropped the book
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'cause I was so floored
by the level of sadism.
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¶ ¶
55
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I always wondered what it took
to get to that level of sadism,
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how their progression
from their childhood
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00:03:24,729 --> 00:03:29,491
to committing such violent,
heinous acts transpired.
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That was something
I really wanted to explore.
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I majored
in forensic psychology.
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00:03:34,489 --> 00:03:36,498
I had
this incredible professor.
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00:03:36,574 --> 00:03:39,051
He said, "If you start doing
your own study,
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"this will give you a leg up
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when you go
for higher education."
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I developed this questionnaire
that I sent out to--
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I think it was, like,
80 different serial killers.
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00:03:49,879 --> 00:03:52,555
My only goal was to create
a set of questions
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00:03:52,632 --> 00:03:54,933
that they can't manipulate
so we can catch
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00:03:55,010 --> 00:03:57,394
these violent patterns
and behaviors early on,
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00:03:57,470 --> 00:04:01,189
before these other offenders
go on to do a life of crime,
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00:04:01,266 --> 00:04:03,858
like Lawrence Bittaker.
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00:04:03,869 --> 00:04:06,161
I didn't even think I was gonna
get a response back.
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00:04:06,238 --> 00:04:08,738
And I was like, "They're not
gonna help me with a study,"
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you know.
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00:04:10,275 --> 00:04:12,742
I ended up getting
a crazy amount of responses,
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and I was shocked.
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00:04:14,070 --> 00:04:16,880
But when I first
reached out to Bittaker,
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00:04:16,957 --> 00:04:18,707
he wrote me back saying
he didn't want to talk to me,
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he didn't want
to do the survey.
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He's in his late 70s
at this point,
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00:04:22,203 --> 00:04:25,005
and he didn't want to talk
about the crimes.
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So many journalists tried
to get him to do interviews
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over the years,
but he just denied everybody.
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I had already collected
so much data
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from the other inmates.
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Why am I bothering with one
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00:04:36,601 --> 00:04:38,768
that is so challenging
to deal with?
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00:04:38,779 --> 00:04:41,479
But he was the most
sadistic serial killer
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00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:43,857
in American history,
the worst of the worst,
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00:04:43,933 --> 00:04:45,701
and I wanted to try
to find out
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if he was hiding something
for all these years.
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00:04:47,705 --> 00:04:48,903
I didn't take no for an answer,
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00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:50,488
and I just kept writing
and writing
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for years and years and years.
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One day, he finally agreed
to talk to me.
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00:04:56,738 --> 00:04:58,830
- This call is being recorded.
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If you do not wish
to be recorded,
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00:05:00,784 --> 00:05:03,260
please disconnect
at this time.
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- Bittaker was really tricky
to warm up to
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00:05:20,553 --> 00:05:21,737
and build the trust
and rapport.
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It really took a lot of time.
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Early on in our relationship,
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we used to try to have just,
like, normal conversations,
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and it was like
he just couldn't do it.
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- As an FBI agent,
I worked in the FBI's BAU,
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00:05:44,619 --> 00:05:47,629
commonly known
as the Behavior Analysis Unit,
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and in that unit,
I was involved
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00:05:51,084 --> 00:05:54,427
in working a number
of very violent crimes,
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00:05:54,504 --> 00:05:57,806
most specifically
serial murder cases.
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00:05:57,882 --> 00:06:01,142
When I first met Larry,
he was clearly playing
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00:06:01,219 --> 00:06:02,727
a cat-and-mouse game with me.
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00:06:02,804 --> 00:06:04,613
Didn't admit to anything.
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Said he hadn't done
anything wrong.
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He didn't give up very much.
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- Bittaker, he doesn't
see people as individuals.
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He sees them as objects
to be used and to toss away.
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I was a special trial deputy
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handling some of the most
gruesome murder cases
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00:06:23,050 --> 00:06:24,582
in L.A. County,
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00:06:24,659 --> 00:06:28,044
including Charles Manson
and his family members.
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00:06:28,121 --> 00:06:30,547
I always felt
that Lawrence Bittaker
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00:06:30,623 --> 00:06:32,257
was the worst,
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00:06:32,267 --> 00:06:36,636
even worse than Manson,
because of the torture.
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00:06:36,713 --> 00:06:38,763
- He always said
he wanted to be
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00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,641
bigger than Charlie Manson.
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00:06:41,718 --> 00:06:43,017
My name is Dennis McCarthy.
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00:06:43,094 --> 00:06:45,320
I was a reporter
at the South Bay "Daily Breeze"
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00:06:45,397 --> 00:06:47,121
in 1981,
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00:06:47,123 --> 00:06:49,482
and I covered the murder trial
of Lawrence Bittaker,
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00:06:49,559 --> 00:06:50,900
the Toolbox Killer.
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00:06:52,979 --> 00:06:57,824
Larry was such a fascinating
study in evil.
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Basically, Bittaker's defense
was, "I didn't do it.
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00:07:00,236 --> 00:07:02,203
It was the other guy."
Right? "It was Norris."
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00:07:04,365 --> 00:07:07,250
- Bittaker and Norris
met and spoke in prison.
134
00:07:07,327 --> 00:07:10,545
Their sharing
of violent sexual fantasies
135
00:07:10,622 --> 00:07:13,339
really cemented
their relationship.
136
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- You had violent Bittaker
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00:07:15,793 --> 00:07:18,386
and rapist Norris
getting together.
138
00:07:18,463 --> 00:07:20,638
Bittaker was the lead.
139
00:07:20,715 --> 00:07:23,266
Norris was the follower.
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00:07:23,343 --> 00:07:27,729
¶ ¶
141
00:07:27,805 --> 00:07:30,106
- Lawrence Bittaker
was a near-genius.
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00:07:30,183 --> 00:07:31,733
He has a 138 IQ.
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00:07:31,809 --> 00:07:33,693
When you're working
with a psychopath,
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00:07:33,770 --> 00:07:35,695
if you go in
and you're pretending
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00:07:35,772 --> 00:07:37,405
to be something you're not,
they can tell.
146
00:07:37,482 --> 00:07:38,707
These guys are smart.
147
00:07:38,783 --> 00:07:40,241
And if you're gonna
play games with them,
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00:07:40,318 --> 00:07:42,535
they're gonna
play games with you.
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So I go in nonjudgmental.
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I build a real, actual,
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00:07:46,950 --> 00:07:48,791
authentic relationship
with them,
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00:07:48,868 --> 00:07:50,585
and I definitely open up
about myself
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and my own personal life.
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Anytime you're working
with offenders
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who have
antisocial personality,
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00:07:57,001 --> 00:07:58,968
there's always gonna be a risk.
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But once Lawrence Bittaker
and I finally felt that trust
158
00:08:01,673 --> 00:08:03,973
and that rapport,
he started to reveal stuff
159
00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:06,109
that he had never told
anybody else about this case.
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- I guess it was a Sunday.
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¶ ¶
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- Bittaker and Norris had been
driving all day for 15 hours
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just smoking weed
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and photographing
unsuspecting girls,
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00:08:43,047 --> 00:08:46,391
when they spotted
Cindy Schaefer.
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She was dropped off
at a church meeting
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00:08:48,928 --> 00:08:50,478
in Redondo Beach,
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00:08:50,555 --> 00:08:52,313
and she had left early,
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00:08:52,390 --> 00:08:54,315
and she was walking back
to her grandparents' place,
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where she was staying,
and they start to trail her.
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- The police had no leads.
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00:09:56,921 --> 00:09:58,546
They had a big, bloody fight.
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- She is punching him
and just fighting for her life.
174
00:10:07,382 --> 00:10:11,234
¶ ¶
175
00:10:17,475 --> 00:10:22,287
¶ ¶
176
00:10:32,824 --> 00:10:35,291
¶ ¶
177
00:10:35,368 --> 00:10:38,920
- Cindy Schaefer was
a very bright young woman.
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00:10:38,930 --> 00:10:40,705
She was 16 years old.
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00:10:40,707 --> 00:10:43,758
- Cindy was, from all accounts
of everybody who knew her,
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00:10:43,835 --> 00:10:45,560
just the sweetest
and nicest girl
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00:10:45,637 --> 00:10:46,886
you could have ever imagined.
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- She tutored in Spanish,
algebra,
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00:10:50,675 --> 00:10:52,809
and geometry in high school
184
00:10:52,885 --> 00:10:56,187
and just had so many friends.
185
00:10:56,264 --> 00:10:57,922
- She wanted to go to college.
186
00:10:57,999 --> 00:11:00,075
She wanted to study language
and teach foreign language,
187
00:11:00,151 --> 00:11:01,701
just like her mother.
188
00:11:37,823 --> 00:11:39,897
¶ ¶
189
00:11:39,974 --> 00:11:41,774
- When Bittaker would talk
190
00:11:41,851 --> 00:11:44,819
about how the girl more
or less went along with it
191
00:11:44,830 --> 00:11:46,754
once she was inside the van,
192
00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:49,532
as effort on his part
to minimize his involvement,
193
00:11:49,609 --> 00:11:52,076
to minimize how serious
these crimes were,
194
00:11:52,153 --> 00:11:53,953
he's trying to manage
the impression
195
00:11:53,964 --> 00:11:55,922
that you have of him.
196
00:12:04,332 --> 00:12:06,799
- Bittaker,
when he was a teenager,
197
00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:11,554
had been placed in a camp
in the San Gabriel Mountains,
198
00:12:11,631 --> 00:12:14,849
and he thought that
that would be a good place
199
00:12:14,926 --> 00:12:17,101
for them
to take their victims,
200
00:12:17,178 --> 00:12:21,156
because nobody
would hear them scream.
201
00:12:53,139 --> 00:12:56,015
- Cindy asked
if they were gonna kill her.
202
00:12:56,092 --> 00:12:59,644
She said, "I just want you
to let me pray
203
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,145
if you're gonna kill me."
204
00:13:01,222 --> 00:13:03,606
- Bittaker and Norris
laughed at her,
205
00:13:03,683 --> 00:13:06,150
and Bittaker turned to her,
and he said,
206
00:13:06,227 --> 00:13:08,653
"God isn't here, only devils."
207
00:13:08,729 --> 00:13:10,997
¶ ¶
208
00:13:50,813 --> 00:13:53,373
¶ ¶
209
00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:00,913
- Norris saw that Cindy
was crying,
210
00:14:00,990 --> 00:14:04,542
and he just couldn't do it
anymore, so he let go,
211
00:14:04,619 --> 00:14:09,046
and he went over to the side
of the road and threw up.
212
00:14:09,123 --> 00:14:12,425
Bittaker went to the back
of his van
213
00:14:12,501 --> 00:14:15,928
and sectioned
a wire coat hanger,
214
00:14:16,005 --> 00:14:19,473
and told Norris to wrap it
around her neck and choke her.
215
00:14:19,484 --> 00:14:21,609
And Norris tried
to do that manually,
216
00:14:21,686 --> 00:14:23,987
but he couldn't get it
tight enough.
217
00:14:24,063 --> 00:14:27,148
So Bittaker
got a pair of vise grips
218
00:14:27,158 --> 00:14:28,691
from the back of the van
219
00:14:28,768 --> 00:14:33,446
and tightened it enough
so that it finally killed her.
220
00:14:33,522 --> 00:14:38,418
¶ ¶
221
00:15:39,463 --> 00:15:41,097
- There were no leads
222
00:15:41,173 --> 00:15:43,474
to explain
Cindy's disappearance.
223
00:15:43,551 --> 00:15:46,310
They even found a girl
in Tijuana
224
00:15:46,387 --> 00:15:47,962
that they thought
might be her,
225
00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:51,315
so they went all the way down
to Tijuana and saw the girl,
226
00:15:51,392 --> 00:15:53,201
and, of course,
it wasn't Cindy.
227
00:15:53,277 --> 00:15:56,237
Nobody had really any idea.
228
00:15:56,313 --> 00:15:58,406
They, of course,
didn't realize
229
00:15:58,482 --> 00:16:00,074
that she was the first victim
230
00:16:00,151 --> 00:16:03,336
of the infamous
Toolbox Killers.
231
00:16:06,157 --> 00:16:09,208
- We know that Larry Bittaker
was a criminal sexual sadist.
232
00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:13,337
He's an individual
who is sexually aroused
233
00:16:13,414 --> 00:16:17,008
by the infliction
of physical or emotional pain
234
00:16:17,084 --> 00:16:20,094
on his non-consenting partners.
235
00:16:20,171 --> 00:16:23,264
He wants the victim
to scream, to cry.
236
00:16:23,274 --> 00:16:25,891
He wants to see the fear
in their eyes.
237
00:16:25,968 --> 00:16:29,186
We know this behavior
would have started
238
00:16:29,263 --> 00:16:31,239
at a very, very early age.
239
00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:53,127
¶ ¶
240
00:16:53,204 --> 00:16:54,545
- Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker
241
00:16:54,622 --> 00:16:58,007
was born
to a teen mother in 1940.
242
00:16:58,084 --> 00:17:00,760
Bittaker's father was violent,
and his mother was a drinker.
243
00:17:00,836 --> 00:17:03,354
She would go and leave him and
his little brother home alone
244
00:17:03,431 --> 00:17:04,989
while she went out
and partied.
245
00:17:05,065 --> 00:17:07,725
Soon, the family convinced her
to give up the two boys.
246
00:17:07,802 --> 00:17:10,144
They were adopted
by different aunts and uncles
247
00:17:10,155 --> 00:17:11,395
within the family.
248
00:17:11,472 --> 00:17:13,230
- At some point,
something happened to him
249
00:17:13,307 --> 00:17:15,441
when he was a little boy.
250
00:17:15,518 --> 00:17:17,693
Sexually sadistic behaviors
are learned
251
00:17:17,704 --> 00:17:20,571
when their sexual identity
is being formed.
252
00:17:20,648 --> 00:17:23,916
So, whether Larry
had been himself the victim
253
00:17:23,993 --> 00:17:25,576
of some kind of sexual abuse,
254
00:17:25,653 --> 00:17:28,204
that more than likely shaped
his development
255
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,997
as a sexual sadist.
256
00:17:30,074 --> 00:17:33,793
- Bittaker was raised
by an aunt and uncle.
257
00:17:33,869 --> 00:17:36,420
They provided what would
have been a good life
258
00:17:36,497 --> 00:17:37,755
for a normal person,
259
00:17:37,832 --> 00:17:40,224
but Bittaker was not
a normal person.
260
00:17:57,518 --> 00:17:58,993
- Even in his 70s,
261
00:17:59,070 --> 00:18:01,487
he would talk about the mother
who gave him up.
262
00:18:01,564 --> 00:18:03,206
That was a big part
of where his rage came from.
263
00:18:03,282 --> 00:18:06,334
He actually had a plan
to go find her and kill her.
264
00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:08,285
He always felt like,
if she had kept him,
265
00:18:08,362 --> 00:18:10,213
he would have never become
a monster.
266
00:18:10,289 --> 00:18:12,381
¶ ¶
267
00:18:12,458 --> 00:18:14,458
He had amazing grades.
He was very smart.
268
00:18:14,535 --> 00:18:17,336
He was tested early
with a 138 IQ.
269
00:18:17,413 --> 00:18:20,306
But he was unmotivated
and unchallenged.
270
00:18:20,383 --> 00:18:21,632
He loved to play with fire,
271
00:18:21,709 --> 00:18:23,968
and he did burn down
a couple sheds.
272
00:18:24,044 --> 00:18:25,636
He was doing it to try to get
273
00:18:25,713 --> 00:18:28,481
his adoptive parents',
you know, attention.
274
00:18:37,391 --> 00:18:39,775
- And she took a cigarette
275
00:18:39,852 --> 00:18:42,361
and just put it
all over his body,
276
00:18:42,438 --> 00:18:44,497
in a way that seemed
like torture.
277
00:18:55,009 --> 00:18:59,178
- Larry began to manifest his
interest in torturing things
278
00:18:59,255 --> 00:19:01,755
by the time he was adolescent.
279
00:19:01,766 --> 00:19:04,175
One time he told me
that he was upset.
280
00:19:04,185 --> 00:19:08,137
They had rabbits, and he went
outside with a pair of pliers,
281
00:19:08,214 --> 00:19:12,525
and he removed the teeth of one
of the rabbits with the pliers.
282
00:19:25,648 --> 00:19:27,072
- As a teenager, he would
wander around the streets
283
00:19:27,149 --> 00:19:28,365
at night.
284
00:19:28,442 --> 00:19:29,533
But then it started
to escalate,
285
00:19:29,610 --> 00:19:31,160
when he would move
furniture around
286
00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:33,662
so people knew that someone
had been in their house,
287
00:19:33,739 --> 00:19:36,540
just so people feel unsafe
in their own homes.
288
00:19:36,617 --> 00:19:38,709
So you're seeing
the early signs of sadism.
289
00:19:38,786 --> 00:19:41,629
- A serial sexual killer--
they're born predators.
290
00:19:41,705 --> 00:19:43,431
They hunt human beings.
291
00:19:43,507 --> 00:19:45,716
And so his practice--
292
00:19:45,793 --> 00:19:47,885
following people,
watching people,
293
00:19:47,962 --> 00:19:50,596
walking around his
neighborhood late at night--
294
00:19:50,673 --> 00:19:52,681
is a result
of his psychopathy,
295
00:19:52,758 --> 00:19:55,184
which has a genetic link
to it.
296
00:19:55,261 --> 00:19:59,063
When sexuality and violence
becomes intertwined,
297
00:19:59,139 --> 00:20:02,691
now you have these compulsion
and these urges to go out
298
00:20:02,768 --> 00:20:04,827
and kidnap people
and torture them,
299
00:20:04,904 --> 00:20:07,705
that's a very,
very deadly combination.
300
00:20:07,782 --> 00:20:13,419
¶ ¶
301
00:20:20,035 --> 00:20:22,294
¶ ¶
302
00:20:22,371 --> 00:20:24,338
- Lawrence Bittaker
was very society awkward.
303
00:20:24,415 --> 00:20:27,091
He reports that he didn't have
any friends growing up,
304
00:20:27,167 --> 00:20:29,843
but he was able to get
a girlfriend in high school.
305
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,137
Mary Anne was
a Catholic school girl--
306
00:20:32,214 --> 00:20:33,739
Blonde hair, big blue eyes.
307
00:20:33,741 --> 00:20:36,684
If you look at the victims,
they look very similar.
308
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:38,102
She also wore a cross,
309
00:20:38,178 --> 00:20:39,520
and he actually made
some of the victims
310
00:20:39,596 --> 00:20:41,697
actually put on a cross
during his crimes.
311
00:21:07,466 --> 00:21:09,174
Bittaker told me
that he had recorded
312
00:21:09,251 --> 00:21:11,385
a make-out session
with this girlfriend.
313
00:21:11,462 --> 00:21:12,961
I was really blown away,
314
00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:15,398
'cause I think this is where
the paraphilic urges started.
315
00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:27,067
What's chilling
is she does remember
316
00:21:27,078 --> 00:21:29,320
him taking her
up to San Gabriel Mountains,
317
00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:32,072
and they would go
and hang out and hike.
318
00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:33,907
I've always wondered
if that's why he took
319
00:21:33,984 --> 00:21:36,410
the victims there--is because
of this first girlfriend,
320
00:21:36,421 --> 00:21:37,911
his first rejection.
321
00:21:37,922 --> 00:21:41,882
¶ ¶
322
00:22:02,739 --> 00:22:04,688
- Bittaker had what's known
323
00:22:04,765 --> 00:22:08,275
as a polymorphous
perverse personality.
324
00:22:08,352 --> 00:22:10,569
That means that he was able
325
00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:13,414
to commit any crime
on the books
326
00:22:13,491 --> 00:22:15,240
just for his own pleasure.
327
00:22:15,317 --> 00:22:18,994
- His psychopathy was not
something that he worried about
328
00:22:19,071 --> 00:22:22,289
or he fretted about
or he was concerned about.
329
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:24,458
- When Lawrence Bittaker
was in juvie,
330
00:22:24,535 --> 00:22:26,210
they did a ton of evaluations,
331
00:22:26,286 --> 00:22:28,128
and they're seeing
that he is violent
332
00:22:28,205 --> 00:22:30,214
with anger issues
and deeply disturbed.
333
00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:32,558
There were warning signs
from the beginning.
334
00:22:36,922 --> 00:22:41,767
- In 1974, Bittaker was living
in the Hollywood area.
335
00:22:41,844 --> 00:22:44,103
He went into a Ralph's market,
336
00:22:44,179 --> 00:22:47,656
and he stole
a couple of steaks.
337
00:23:02,281 --> 00:23:04,906
- It was a miracle
this guy survived.
338
00:23:08,495 --> 00:23:10,045
By him stabbing this clerk,
339
00:23:10,122 --> 00:23:11,839
it really changed the lives
of everybody--
340
00:23:11,915 --> 00:23:13,674
this fateful moment
that sent him
341
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:17,010
to California Men's Colony,
CMC East.
342
00:23:17,087 --> 00:23:18,887
This is where
Lawrence Bittaker
343
00:23:18,964 --> 00:23:21,348
meets Roy Norris.
344
00:23:24,761 --> 00:23:27,271
- Roy Norris was a rapist.
345
00:23:27,347 --> 00:23:29,148
He was a serial rapist.
346
00:23:29,158 --> 00:23:30,649
Who was worse?
347
00:23:30,726 --> 00:23:32,034
I don't think I could even say,
348
00:23:32,111 --> 00:23:34,445
'cause when they partnered up,
they were both horrible.
349
00:23:34,521 --> 00:23:36,905
- I think he hated women.
350
00:23:36,982 --> 00:23:39,166
- He was the one who typically
grabbed the grabs
351
00:23:39,243 --> 00:23:40,968
and subdued them.
352
00:23:40,970 --> 00:23:43,495
He was a much bigger guy.
He was over 200 pounds.
353
00:23:43,572 --> 00:23:45,038
- He was a big oaf.
354
00:23:45,049 --> 00:23:47,458
His IQ--I have no idea
what it was,
355
00:23:47,534 --> 00:23:50,794
but it couldn't be anywhere
near Bittaker's IQ.
356
00:23:50,805 --> 00:23:54,965
- He wasn't a liar and an actor
like Larry was.
357
00:23:55,042 --> 00:23:56,800
Like, Larry pulled it off.
358
00:23:56,811 --> 00:24:00,721
Norris--
you felt uncomfortable.
359
00:24:00,797 --> 00:24:02,931
- So he was definitely
the muscle of the two,
360
00:24:03,008 --> 00:24:05,109
and Bittaker was the brains.
361
00:24:07,012 --> 00:24:09,396
- I prosecuted Roy Norris
362
00:24:09,473 --> 00:24:12,274
for rape in 1975.
363
00:24:12,351 --> 00:24:15,110
He was sentenced
from three years to life
364
00:24:15,187 --> 00:24:17,362
in the
California Men's Colony,
365
00:24:17,439 --> 00:24:19,531
East Facility,
in San Luis Obispo,
366
00:24:19,608 --> 00:24:22,784
where he met Lawrence Bittaker,
who was already there.
367
00:24:22,861 --> 00:24:25,963
¶ ¶
368
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,164
- How they met, actually,
369
00:24:27,241 --> 00:24:30,292
is they would
make jewelry together.
370
00:24:30,369 --> 00:24:34,263
¶ ¶
371
00:24:52,015 --> 00:24:54,858
And they did tell an inmate
named Richard Shoopman,
372
00:24:54,935 --> 00:24:57,069
who was in there for killing
a young college girl.
373
00:25:00,416 --> 00:25:03,242
- Shoopman would write up
their fantasies
374
00:25:03,252 --> 00:25:05,577
and sell them
to other prisoners.
375
00:25:05,654 --> 00:25:07,713
- They talked about getting
a cabin in the woods.
376
00:25:07,790 --> 00:25:09,673
They talked
about getting a trailer.
377
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:10,958
They even talked about a cave.
378
00:25:11,034 --> 00:25:13,001
- And they would fantasize
379
00:25:13,078 --> 00:25:16,630
about what they were gonna do
when they got out.
380
00:25:16,707 --> 00:25:20,968
- It was Roy who also told me
that part of their fantasies,
381
00:25:21,044 --> 00:25:23,971
as they plotted out
what they were gonna do,
382
00:25:24,047 --> 00:25:26,848
was that they were going
to kidnap a girl
383
00:25:26,925 --> 00:25:28,308
for every teen year.
384
00:25:28,385 --> 00:25:30,811
Once they got out,
they would kidnap 13-year-old,
385
00:25:30,887 --> 00:25:32,896
14-year-old, 15-year-old...
386
00:25:32,973 --> 00:25:35,324
It was the perfect storm
when they hooked up.
387
00:25:35,401 --> 00:25:37,785
¶ ¶
388
00:25:37,861 --> 00:25:39,611
- Back in the '70s,
389
00:25:39,688 --> 00:25:42,155
rape wasn't treated
as seriously as it is nowadays.
390
00:25:42,166 --> 00:25:45,534
Another factor--both of them
have antisocial personality,
391
00:25:45,611 --> 00:25:46,818
so they are conning
392
00:25:46,896 --> 00:25:48,787
the, you know, psychologist
constantly
393
00:25:48,864 --> 00:25:50,664
and telling him, you know,
they're fine,
394
00:25:50,666 --> 00:25:53,217
they're rehabilitated, they
can go back out into society.
395
00:25:55,078 --> 00:25:57,087
So Bittaker got
out of jail first,
396
00:25:57,164 --> 00:25:59,181
and he went to Los Angeles.
397
00:25:59,258 --> 00:26:02,551
And then he got a job as
a skilled machinist in Burbank.
398
00:26:02,628 --> 00:26:07,014
Roy Norris gets out a couple
months right after Bittaker.
399
00:26:07,090 --> 00:26:08,724
He actually wanted Norris
to quit his job
400
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,025
to build a compound,
401
00:26:10,102 --> 00:26:12,227
and he was gonna financially
take care of him.
402
00:26:12,304 --> 00:26:14,980
There was a very, like,
teacher-student vibe to them.
403
00:26:15,057 --> 00:26:17,816
And I noticed, even with
my relationship with Bittaker,
404
00:26:17,893 --> 00:26:19,276
it was a very student-teacher.
405
00:26:19,353 --> 00:26:21,328
It was like, he's Hannibal,
I'm Clarice.
406
00:26:21,405 --> 00:26:23,405
He loved, like, that role
and that dynamic,
407
00:26:23,482 --> 00:26:25,616
and loved that he was
teaching me
408
00:26:25,692 --> 00:26:27,359
about, you know,
the psychopathy.
409
00:26:27,361 --> 00:26:31,121
And I think that was the same
dynamic with him and Norris.
410
00:26:31,198 --> 00:26:34,207
- They talked about Bittaker
wanting a van
411
00:26:34,284 --> 00:26:37,720
and specifically a van
with a sliding door,
412
00:26:37,796 --> 00:26:41,473
'cause that way they could
get victims in the van quicker.
413
00:26:55,314 --> 00:26:58,899
- Bittaker buys, you know,
the infamous silver van,
414
00:26:58,975 --> 00:27:01,410
which they named Murder Mack.
415
00:27:07,984 --> 00:27:10,535
They start personalizing
this van.
416
00:27:10,612 --> 00:27:12,412
- They had police scanners.
417
00:27:12,489 --> 00:27:15,883
He put a fold-down bed
in the back.
418
00:27:15,959 --> 00:27:17,376
- They put flooring down.
419
00:27:17,386 --> 00:27:19,294
They put a shag
green carpet down.
420
00:27:19,371 --> 00:27:21,546
They put the makeshift bed
with the toolbox--
421
00:27:21,623 --> 00:27:23,632
the infamous toolbox--
underneath the bed
422
00:27:23,709 --> 00:27:25,092
to use for their torture.
423
00:27:25,168 --> 00:27:26,893
They also had
the walkie-talkies,
424
00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:28,428
which they used to communicate
back and forth.
425
00:27:28,505 --> 00:27:32,149
- And then they started
going to The Strand
426
00:27:32,226 --> 00:27:33,558
in the South Bay area,
427
00:27:33,635 --> 00:27:36,103
taking photographs
of young teenage girls
428
00:27:36,179 --> 00:27:40,407
in their skimpy bikinis
and roller skating.
429
00:27:42,853 --> 00:27:45,612
- They did a trip up
to San Gabriel Mountains.
430
00:27:45,689 --> 00:27:47,280
Bittaker had wanted
to show Norris
431
00:27:47,357 --> 00:27:48,907
all these, like,
remote fire roads
432
00:27:48,984 --> 00:27:50,450
that they could use.
433
00:27:50,527 --> 00:27:52,911
- He thought that
that would be a good place
434
00:27:52,988 --> 00:27:55,288
for them
to take their victims,
435
00:27:55,365 --> 00:27:57,833
because nobody
would hear them scream,
436
00:27:57,909 --> 00:28:00,127
and they could dump the bodies
437
00:28:00,203 --> 00:28:02,680
down the very steep ravines.
438
00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:05,090
- There's a picture of Bittaker
bending down,
439
00:28:05,167 --> 00:28:07,342
breaking off the lock
onto this fire road
440
00:28:07,419 --> 00:28:10,929
so they would have
complete access to this road.
441
00:28:11,006 --> 00:28:13,941
- Bittaker took a photograph
of Norris...
442
00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:19,312
On the fire road,
pointing to the steep ravine.
443
00:28:19,389 --> 00:28:21,440
- Now, these look like
innocent pictures,
444
00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:23,191
but when they were sent
to Shoopman,
445
00:28:23,268 --> 00:28:24,735
they were a message to Shoopman
446
00:28:24,811 --> 00:28:26,653
that, "We are actually going
through with this plan.
447
00:28:26,730 --> 00:28:29,197
We're doing it.
We're bringing victims here."
448
00:28:29,274 --> 00:28:31,658
They have this tricked-out
murder van,
449
00:28:31,735 --> 00:28:33,326
and then they have
the mountains and the woods.
450
00:28:33,403 --> 00:28:36,204
I mean, it's very clear
everything was planned.
451
00:28:36,281 --> 00:28:37,322
And that was Bittaker.
452
00:28:37,399 --> 00:28:39,091
He was a planner.
He was a thinker.
453
00:28:39,168 --> 00:28:41,009
He thought
every scenario through.
454
00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:51,413
¶ ¶
455
00:30:01,741 --> 00:30:03,625
¶ ¶
456
00:30:03,702 --> 00:30:05,752
- Beach towns
down in the South Bay
457
00:30:05,829 --> 00:30:07,504
were considered very safe.
458
00:30:07,581 --> 00:30:09,798
You know, they were a place
where airline pilots
459
00:30:09,875 --> 00:30:11,258
and stews hung out,
460
00:30:11,268 --> 00:30:13,510
because it was close to LAX
461
00:30:13,587 --> 00:30:14,937
and only a couple of feet
462
00:30:15,013 --> 00:30:17,180
from some of the most
beautiful beach area
463
00:30:17,257 --> 00:30:18,932
in all of California.
464
00:30:19,009 --> 00:30:22,310
A lot of young girls,
a lot of muscle builders.
465
00:30:22,387 --> 00:30:23,979
It was a happening place, man.
466
00:30:24,055 --> 00:30:26,606
Everybody was going
down to The Strand,
467
00:30:26,683 --> 00:30:28,191
because that's where
the action was.
468
00:30:28,268 --> 00:30:30,610
Unfortunately,
there was so much action,
469
00:30:30,687 --> 00:30:32,830
that's where Bittaker
and Norris
470
00:30:32,906 --> 00:30:35,866
went to find their victims.
471
00:30:37,611 --> 00:30:39,536
- Hitchhiking was part
of the culture.
472
00:30:39,613 --> 00:30:41,538
I myself had tried it
a couple times.
473
00:30:41,615 --> 00:30:44,040
My girlfriends wanted
to always, you know,
474
00:30:44,117 --> 00:30:46,209
in the summer,
hitchhike to the park
475
00:30:46,286 --> 00:30:48,345
that wasn't very far away.
476
00:30:48,422 --> 00:30:50,213
But I didn't know
my sister was hitchhiking
477
00:30:50,224 --> 00:30:53,049
until right before
she was abducted.
478
00:30:56,054 --> 00:30:58,230
¶ ¶
479
00:31:21,529 --> 00:31:25,916
- Andrea Hall was
an 18-year-old girl from Ohio.
480
00:31:25,992 --> 00:31:27,542
She was spotted
481
00:31:27,619 --> 00:31:29,419
by Lawrence Bittaker
and Roy Norris
482
00:31:29,496 --> 00:31:33,256
only two weeks
after they had killed Cindy.
483
00:31:33,333 --> 00:31:36,760
Andrea had been at the beach
with her sister and her kids.
484
00:31:36,836 --> 00:31:39,721
She had a boyfriend
who lived out in Torrance.
485
00:31:39,798 --> 00:31:42,349
She wasn't too far
from the boyfriend's place.
486
00:31:42,425 --> 00:31:44,818
So, to get there,
she hitchhiked.
487
00:31:51,017 --> 00:31:53,777
- She was hitchhiking down
Pacific Coast Highway.
488
00:31:53,853 --> 00:31:55,862
She got in the car
with somebody else first,
489
00:31:55,939 --> 00:31:58,156
and followed that car,
490
00:31:58,233 --> 00:32:01,076
thinking that that person
may not want to take her
491
00:32:01,152 --> 00:32:03,036
as far as she wanted to go.
492
00:32:03,113 --> 00:32:04,922
- They followed this car
for miles
493
00:32:04,998 --> 00:32:06,748
until he had let her out.
494
00:32:06,825 --> 00:32:08,917
And then she started
hitchhiking again,
495
00:32:08,994 --> 00:32:11,670
'cause she wasn't at
the location she needed to be.
496
00:32:11,746 --> 00:32:14,381
And that's when Norris went
and hid under the bed,
497
00:32:14,457 --> 00:32:17,059
the makeshift bed,
and Bittaker came up,
498
00:32:17,135 --> 00:32:19,636
rolled down the window
and said, "Hey, want a ride?"
499
00:32:19,713 --> 00:32:23,440
- She made it easy
for these two perpetrators.
500
00:32:23,517 --> 00:32:27,227
All they had to do
was pick her up, and they did.
501
00:32:27,237 --> 00:32:30,313
My sister looked in.
She got in.
502
00:32:30,390 --> 00:32:32,649
Lawrence told her
that there was a cooler
503
00:32:32,726 --> 00:32:35,610
in the back with cold drinks.
504
00:32:35,687 --> 00:32:38,571
So she got up
and went back there.
505
00:32:38,582 --> 00:32:40,865
And Roy Norris came up
506
00:32:40,942 --> 00:32:44,327
and started accosting her.
507
00:32:44,404 --> 00:32:49,958
¶ ¶
508
00:32:50,035 --> 00:32:52,669
- She starts fighting,
and she fought like a bull.
509
00:32:52,746 --> 00:32:54,671
And, I mean,
she is punching him
510
00:32:54,748 --> 00:32:57,182
and just fighting
for her life.
511
00:33:07,719 --> 00:33:10,020
He saw that she
was overpowering Norris,
512
00:33:10,096 --> 00:33:11,688
so he slammed on the brakes,
513
00:33:11,765 --> 00:33:13,648
and they both
tumbled backwards.
514
00:33:13,725 --> 00:33:16,693
- They had a big bloody fight,
515
00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:18,996
and Norris finally
got control of her.
516
00:33:19,072 --> 00:33:22,624
¶ ¶
517
00:33:22,701 --> 00:33:24,659
They went to the mountain area
again,
518
00:33:24,736 --> 00:33:26,494
to a place we now know
it's called
519
00:33:26,571 --> 00:33:28,121
the Upper Monroe Truck Trail.
520
00:33:28,198 --> 00:33:29,873
They're fire roads.
521
00:33:29,949 --> 00:33:34,544
Bittaker had a sleeping bag,
a blanket, walkie-talkie,
522
00:33:34,621 --> 00:33:37,139
so he could stay in contact
with Norris,
523
00:33:37,215 --> 00:33:39,007
and a camera.
524
00:33:41,344 --> 00:33:42,802
It was like a Polaroid camera.
525
00:33:42,879 --> 00:33:44,396
It would shoot
the picture out,
526
00:33:44,473 --> 00:33:47,315
so you didn't have to take it
in to a nosy film developer
527
00:33:47,392 --> 00:33:51,528
who would see pictures
of girls in great distress.
528
00:34:10,966 --> 00:34:14,084
- Bittaker had told me in some
of my interviews with him,
529
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,711
he had used, you know,
the pliers on her.
530
00:34:16,788 --> 00:34:18,155
When he took her up
on that hill,
531
00:34:18,231 --> 00:34:21,299
he had her bound,
and he took a camera.
532
00:34:21,310 --> 00:34:23,760
- He took one...
533
00:34:23,837 --> 00:34:26,888
just gut-wrenching photograph
of her.
534
00:34:29,551 --> 00:34:31,768
- He had said,
"I'm going to kill you,"
535
00:34:31,845 --> 00:34:34,312
and snapped a picture
of her face--
536
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:37,273
the look on her face
when he said that.
537
00:34:37,350 --> 00:34:38,950
That is true sadism.
538
00:34:55,076 --> 00:34:59,596
- She was his first attempt
with an ice pick in the ear,
539
00:34:59,673 --> 00:35:03,466
and that idea came
from a movie we saw in prison.
540
00:35:03,543 --> 00:35:05,677
- When you puncture
an eardrum,
541
00:35:05,753 --> 00:35:08,805
it's one of the most severe,
severe types of pain.
542
00:35:08,882 --> 00:35:11,641
You would almost, like,
go deaf instantly
543
00:35:11,718 --> 00:35:14,602
and just hear blood
through your brain.
544
00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:16,688
But it wouldn't kill you
instantly.
545
00:35:16,764 --> 00:35:19,032
It would be
a very slow, painful death.
546
00:35:41,089 --> 00:35:43,339
- But then he manually
strangled her
547
00:35:43,416 --> 00:35:45,767
until she was dead.
548
00:35:45,844 --> 00:35:49,437
- Andrea Hall's body
was never found.
549
00:35:49,514 --> 00:35:51,731
¶ ¶
550
00:35:51,808 --> 00:35:54,985
- A small piece of myself
died every day
551
00:35:55,061 --> 00:35:58,155
for 13 1/2 years.
552
00:35:58,231 --> 00:36:00,190
It was tough.
553
00:36:00,266 --> 00:36:03,735
¶ ¶
554
00:36:03,811 --> 00:36:07,822
- When Andrea went missing,
the police had no leads.
555
00:36:07,899 --> 00:36:10,408
Her mother in Ohio
was beside herself
556
00:36:10,419 --> 00:36:14,621
because she had talked
to Andrea at least once a week.
557
00:36:14,697 --> 00:36:16,789
- So, when I did start digging
into the case
558
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,375
and I saw that Cindy and Andrea
have never been found
559
00:36:19,452 --> 00:36:20,710
in all these years,
560
00:36:20,787 --> 00:36:22,503
something told me
to keep working.
561
00:36:22,580 --> 00:36:24,005
You know,
could this be something
562
00:36:24,082 --> 00:36:26,049
that I could get from him,
some information
563
00:36:26,125 --> 00:36:28,176
to try to get the locations
of the two girls?
564
00:36:28,253 --> 00:36:30,845
When I talked to Andrea's
sister for the first time--
565
00:36:30,922 --> 00:36:34,474
Julie--she just said to me--
566
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:36,893
She was bawling,
and I was bawling,
567
00:36:36,970 --> 00:36:40,396
and she's like,
"We've never given up hope."
568
00:36:40,473 --> 00:36:43,491
And just hearing her say,
569
00:36:43,568 --> 00:36:46,736
you know,
"We've never given up hope"...
570
00:36:46,747 --> 00:36:50,156
yeah, it was a really
emotional conversation...
571
00:36:50,233 --> 00:36:52,617
To have.
572
00:36:52,694 --> 00:36:55,453
- You know, my mother said
to my sister Pamela,
573
00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:58,164
whose son drowned
in the ocean one day--
574
00:36:58,241 --> 00:37:02,335
she said, "At least you had
his body, Pammy,"
575
00:37:02,346 --> 00:37:04,295
because we never had a body.
576
00:37:04,372 --> 00:37:06,673
We never found her.
577
00:37:06,749 --> 00:37:08,466
We've still been looking
for her.
578
00:37:08,477 --> 00:37:10,385
It's almost 43 years.
579
00:37:10,461 --> 00:37:17,484
¶ ¶
580
00:37:24,142 --> 00:37:27,369
¶ ¶
581
00:37:27,445 --> 00:37:29,162
- When Bittaker was about 78,
582
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,164
he starts telling me,
you know,
583
00:37:31,241 --> 00:37:33,491
he's starting to have emotions
he never had before.
584
00:37:33,568 --> 00:37:35,877
He'll watch a commercial
and start crying.
585
00:37:48,416 --> 00:37:49,882
He once said to me--
586
00:37:49,959 --> 00:37:51,509
he goes, "Do you understand
what it feels like
587
00:37:51,586 --> 00:37:54,429
"to actually put an ice pick
through someone's ear
588
00:37:54,505 --> 00:37:56,273
and not feel anything?"
589
00:38:03,681 --> 00:38:05,907
Before, he felt like a void,
590
00:38:05,984 --> 00:38:07,909
and now he's feeling, like,
591
00:38:07,986 --> 00:38:10,403
a flood of emotion
for the first time ever.
592
00:38:10,414 --> 00:38:12,080
He calls it a dam breaking.
593
00:38:26,412 --> 00:38:29,047
He's having a new experience,
a new emotion,
594
00:38:29,123 --> 00:38:31,090
and what he called
and wrote about--
595
00:38:31,167 --> 00:38:33,810
he described
as becoming fully human.
596
00:38:43,971 --> 00:38:46,022
- I find it very hard
to believe that any one
597
00:38:46,099 --> 00:38:48,742
of those psychological
professionals at San Quentin
598
00:38:48,818 --> 00:38:51,077
would have given him
that diagnosis,
599
00:38:51,154 --> 00:38:53,446
that, "Once you were,
but now you're not."
600
00:38:53,523 --> 00:38:55,698
I talked with him
about his lack of empathy,
601
00:38:55,775 --> 00:38:58,951
and I recall one time
he said he would find himself
602
00:38:59,028 --> 00:39:00,995
crying during soap operas.
603
00:39:01,072 --> 00:39:03,581
And I remember it was--
I couldn't control it.
604
00:39:03,658 --> 00:39:05,792
I started laughing and saying,
605
00:39:05,868 --> 00:39:08,294
"You have got to be kidding me.
It's absurd.
606
00:39:08,371 --> 00:39:10,171
You know it's absurd,
and I know it's absurd."
607
00:39:10,248 --> 00:39:12,298
And he starting laughing, too.
608
00:39:12,375 --> 00:39:14,592
When he engages in behavior
with people
609
00:39:14,669 --> 00:39:17,929
where he's coming across
as caring and concerned
610
00:39:18,005 --> 00:39:21,391
or seems to show
a soft side of him,
611
00:39:21,467 --> 00:39:24,477
it's the FBI training in me
that says,
612
00:39:24,488 --> 00:39:27,814
"Be very careful that this
is not just another way
613
00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:30,358
to try to manipulate
the situation."
614
00:39:30,435 --> 00:39:33,361
¶ ¶
615
00:39:33,438 --> 00:39:37,115
- My name's Tracee Whitney,
and in 1979,
616
00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:40,410
I lived at the Scott's Motel
next to Lawrence Bittaker.
617
00:39:40,486 --> 00:39:44,455
I saw him daily
when I was at the hotel.
618
00:39:44,532 --> 00:39:48,251
The Scott's Motel
was a very dingy,
619
00:39:48,327 --> 00:39:50,253
cheap hotel.
620
00:39:50,329 --> 00:39:53,005
Burbank Police knew
that people that lived there
621
00:39:53,016 --> 00:39:54,632
were basically homeless.
622
00:39:54,643 --> 00:39:56,342
I was 18.
623
00:39:56,419 --> 00:39:59,512
A lot of younger people
my age would party
624
00:39:59,589 --> 00:40:01,472
in each other's rooms.
625
00:40:01,549 --> 00:40:03,933
Larry would give us money.
626
00:40:04,010 --> 00:40:07,103
He would give us weed.
He would give us beer.
627
00:40:07,180 --> 00:40:10,398
I think Larry wanted
to be liked.
628
00:40:10,475 --> 00:40:12,358
It was as if Larry loved
629
00:40:12,435 --> 00:40:14,986
having a gang of girls
around him, you know?
630
00:40:14,996 --> 00:40:17,497
Like, it made him somebody.
631
00:40:18,441 --> 00:40:21,033
- Larry chose to live
in a rundown place
632
00:40:21,044 --> 00:40:23,202
over a much more expensive
place that he could afford
633
00:40:23,279 --> 00:40:26,497
because it did give him access
to young girls.
634
00:40:26,574 --> 00:40:28,115
It gave him access to people
635
00:40:28,117 --> 00:40:31,711
that he could manipulate
and dominate and impress.
636
00:40:31,787 --> 00:40:34,797
¶ ¶
637
00:40:34,808 --> 00:40:37,216
- I found out I was pregnant.
638
00:40:37,293 --> 00:40:40,303
I attempted to make
a phone call to my family
639
00:40:40,379 --> 00:40:44,223
to beg them
to allow me to come home
640
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:47,226
and live there while I figured
out what I was gonna do,
641
00:40:47,303 --> 00:40:50,271
and they refused to do it,
and they hung up.
642
00:40:50,348 --> 00:40:53,232
When I turned around,
Larry was standing behind me
643
00:40:53,309 --> 00:40:55,151
and had heard
the conversation,
644
00:40:55,228 --> 00:40:57,028
and I was extremely upset.
645
00:40:57,104 --> 00:40:59,238
And he said,
"If you need something--
646
00:40:59,315 --> 00:41:01,741
"if you need maternity clothes
or a place to sleep,
647
00:41:01,817 --> 00:41:03,376
I'll pay for it."
648
00:41:03,453 --> 00:41:07,830
- Larry had a soft spot
for young pregnant girls,
649
00:41:07,907 --> 00:41:10,341
because he was always
the predator.
650
00:41:10,418 --> 00:41:13,336
- He was very nice to me,
you know,
651
00:41:13,412 --> 00:41:17,465
and I get pretty upset
when I say that...
652
00:41:17,542 --> 00:41:20,968
¶ ¶
653
00:41:21,045 --> 00:41:24,096
knowing what I know.
654
00:41:24,173 --> 00:41:28,100
But it's the truth.
He was very kind to me.
655
00:41:28,177 --> 00:41:30,236
- You have to look at it
through the lens
656
00:41:30,313 --> 00:41:35,107
of this was a very, very,
very dangerous sexual predator
657
00:41:35,118 --> 00:41:38,110
who preyed
upon young teenage girls,
658
00:41:38,121 --> 00:41:41,280
who dominated them,
took advantage of them.
659
00:41:41,357 --> 00:41:44,375
And so, while he
may be extending a kindness,
660
00:41:44,452 --> 00:41:46,410
there would have been
ulterior motives.
661
00:41:46,487 --> 00:41:48,621
What was he getting back
in return?
662
00:41:48,632 --> 00:41:53,292
I think it's very possible
that Larry was grooming them.
663
00:41:53,369 --> 00:41:56,212
- He would drive me
to the beach.
664
00:41:56,289 --> 00:41:59,257
He would drive me any place
I wanted to go.
665
00:41:59,333 --> 00:42:01,509
So, we spent a lot of time
in his...
666
00:42:01,586 --> 00:42:03,344
¶ ¶
667
00:42:06,149 --> 00:42:09,350
A lot of time alone in his van.
668
00:42:09,427 --> 00:42:11,727
¶ ¶
669
00:42:11,804 --> 00:42:16,199
I had no clue, no idea
the things that he was doing.
670
00:42:17,652 --> 00:42:20,078
The last time
I was with Larry,
671
00:42:20,154 --> 00:42:23,155
I was in the van
with him alone,
672
00:42:23,166 --> 00:42:25,741
and we got in an argument
about something,
673
00:42:25,818 --> 00:42:27,961
and I don't remember
what it was.
674
00:42:29,405 --> 00:42:33,174
He pulled a gun out,
and he said to me...
675
00:42:35,578 --> 00:42:38,513
"The only reason you're alive
is 'cause you're pregnant."
676
00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:43,017
And...
677
00:42:57,183 --> 00:43:01,569
I remember jumping
out of that van so fast.
678
00:43:01,646 --> 00:43:03,487
I don't even know how--
679
00:43:03,498 --> 00:43:07,500
I don't know
how he didn't shoot me,
680
00:43:07,577 --> 00:43:12,121
knowing what I know
that he did to other girls.
681
00:43:12,198 --> 00:43:15,249
I don't--I'm really lucky
to be alive.
682
00:43:18,722 --> 00:43:20,162
And part of me feels guilty
683
00:43:20,164 --> 00:43:23,883
that I'm alive
and those girts aren't.
684
00:43:27,055 --> 00:43:32,183
¶ ¶
685
00:43:32,193 --> 00:43:35,436
- In 2018,
I had gotten pregnant.
686
00:43:35,513 --> 00:43:36,771
One week later,
687
00:43:36,847 --> 00:43:38,564
the place I was working
went into bankruptcy,
688
00:43:38,641 --> 00:43:40,983
and now I was homeless,
689
00:43:41,060 --> 00:43:43,536
jobless, and pregnant
and alone.
690
00:43:43,613 --> 00:43:46,405
It was a really,
really dark time in my life.
691
00:43:46,482 --> 00:43:48,574
But Bittaker was
the one calling me,
692
00:43:48,651 --> 00:43:50,242
saying,
"How did the doctor's go?"
693
00:44:01,288 --> 00:44:02,755
For the first time ever,
694
00:44:02,766 --> 00:44:05,558
he actually agreed
to be interviewed in person,
695
00:44:05,635 --> 00:44:08,552
so I started making plans
to go meet him.
696
00:44:08,563 --> 00:44:10,262
My doctor almost had
a heart attack
697
00:44:10,273 --> 00:44:12,565
when I told her
I was gonna go to San Quentin
698
00:44:12,642 --> 00:44:15,726
to interview serial killers,
7 1/2 months pregnant.
699
00:44:15,803 --> 00:44:17,728
She literally just drops
the pen, and she goes,
700
00:44:17,805 --> 00:44:19,772
"I don't even know
how to put this in my notes."
701
00:44:38,876 --> 00:44:41,377
The guys on death row
actually really networked
702
00:44:41,454 --> 00:44:44,588
and helped me make it possible
to actually come out there.
703
00:44:44,665 --> 00:44:47,883
They really came to my rescue,
in a sense.
704
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,460
They found me a place to stay.
705
00:44:49,462 --> 00:44:51,470
One of the wives
of the death row inmates
706
00:44:51,547 --> 00:44:53,931
actually, like, took me in.
707
00:44:54,008 --> 00:44:57,610
The goal with any interview
is to get unknown information.
708
00:44:57,687 --> 00:44:59,770
So, of course,
with having two girls
709
00:44:59,847 --> 00:45:01,614
that have never been found,
710
00:45:01,691 --> 00:45:04,158
you want to find their location
for their families.
711
00:45:17,090 --> 00:45:19,582
- Detectives at Hermosa Beach
712
00:45:19,592 --> 00:45:22,677
wanted to have a rolling
surveillance of Norris.
713
00:45:25,122 --> 00:45:27,298
- She was paid
to make certain responses.
714
00:45:27,374 --> 00:45:29,559
She was having difficulty
following those directions.
715
00:45:29,635 --> 00:45:32,720
- There was gasps
in the courtroom.
716
00:45:32,797 --> 00:45:34,221
- He was dying.
717
00:45:34,298 --> 00:45:37,608
He was a ball of emotions
and anxious and upset.
718
00:45:44,659 --> 00:45:48,536
¶ ¶
719
00:45:55,194 --> 00:46:01,123
¶ ¶
720
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,168
- When I first interviewed
Lawrence Bittaker in person
721
00:46:04,245 --> 00:46:05,669
at San Quentin's death row,
722
00:46:05,746 --> 00:46:07,597
I was 7 1/2 months pregnant.
723
00:46:07,673 --> 00:46:09,715
I was, like, wobbling
on death row.
724
00:46:09,792 --> 00:46:11,634
It was wild--even
the correctional officers
725
00:46:11,710 --> 00:46:13,677
are looking at me,
like, "What are you doing?"
726
00:46:13,754 --> 00:46:16,773
- When you're walking
into death row at San Quentin,
727
00:46:16,849 --> 00:46:19,266
you're walking
across the yard...
728
00:46:19,343 --> 00:46:21,644
people out there
milling around.
729
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:23,562
Prisons are not
safe environments
730
00:46:23,573 --> 00:46:25,180
for the other inmates,
731
00:46:25,258 --> 00:46:28,359
for the correctional officers,
and once you're inside,
732
00:46:28,435 --> 00:46:31,654
you don't have any control
over what happens to you.
733
00:46:31,730 --> 00:46:34,657
- You're signing waivers
that say if there's a riot,
734
00:46:34,733 --> 00:46:36,826
no one's gonna come for you
or fight for you.
735
00:46:36,902 --> 00:46:40,120
It's not like a phone call
like you see in the movies.
736
00:46:40,197 --> 00:46:43,290
It's a dog kennel-style cage,
737
00:46:43,367 --> 00:46:45,251
and they padlock you in.
738
00:46:45,327 --> 00:46:46,602
Two chairs and a little table,
739
00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:50,548
and you're sitting there
just face-to-face.
740
00:46:50,624 --> 00:46:52,758
The correction officers
brought Lawrence Bittaker down.
741
00:46:52,835 --> 00:46:55,052
And I remember,
when he first saw me
742
00:46:55,129 --> 00:46:56,303
and, like, how big I was,
743
00:46:56,380 --> 00:46:58,856
like, his eyes bugged
out of his head.
744
00:46:58,933 --> 00:47:00,507
He was so taken back.
745
00:47:00,585 --> 00:47:03,894
He was kind of, like,
socially awkward, I remember.
746
00:47:03,971 --> 00:47:05,321
We sat in the cage,
747
00:47:05,398 --> 00:47:07,064
and he wouldn't even look at me
in the eye
748
00:47:07,141 --> 00:47:08,908
for a good 2 1/2 hours.
749
00:47:08,985 --> 00:47:11,861
He was that shy
when we first met.
750
00:47:11,937 --> 00:47:13,529
But something inside of me
kept saying,
751
00:47:13,606 --> 00:47:14,864
"Keep going back to this guy."
752
00:47:14,940 --> 00:47:16,949
It was almost like
an intuition.
753
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,669
There was something more
to be gained with him.
754
00:47:21,214 --> 00:47:23,914
A couple months later,
I went to the hospital.
755
00:47:23,925 --> 00:47:27,710
Bittaker was even on the phone
with me when I was in labor.
756
00:47:27,786 --> 00:47:31,380
Bittaker had this love
for my son.
757
00:47:31,457 --> 00:47:33,549
I think he almost sees himself
758
00:47:33,626 --> 00:47:37,636
as, like, a surrogate father
for Romeo or grandfather.
759
00:47:37,713 --> 00:47:39,221
It was Romeo's
first birthday party.
760
00:47:39,232 --> 00:47:40,790
I had sent him a picture.
761
00:47:40,866 --> 00:47:43,309
He would bring that picture
of him with all the balloons
762
00:47:43,385 --> 00:47:46,312
and show it off
to everybody on the row.
763
00:47:46,322 --> 00:47:49,106
I think he looked
at Romeo and I
764
00:47:49,183 --> 00:47:50,616
as, like, his only family.
765
00:48:44,455 --> 00:48:48,540
He even put me down as
his next of kin in the will.
766
00:48:48,617 --> 00:48:50,292
So, yeah, I would say
767
00:48:50,369 --> 00:48:54,639
I definitely did the deepest
dive into Lawrence Bittaker.
768
00:48:56,375 --> 00:48:57,925
- My experience
with psychopaths
769
00:48:58,002 --> 00:49:02,012
is that they don't bond
with other people.
770
00:49:02,089 --> 00:49:06,350
The risks of thinking
you're getting really close
771
00:49:06,361 --> 00:49:08,519
to someone who's like that
772
00:49:08,595 --> 00:49:10,646
and giving up a lot
of personal information
773
00:49:10,723 --> 00:49:15,943
to someone that's incarcerated
could be problematic.
774
00:49:16,020 --> 00:49:19,655
You can't be 100% sure
whatsoever
775
00:49:19,732 --> 00:49:23,117
that that information
won't compromise you.
776
00:49:23,193 --> 00:49:25,461
- It is a tightrope
you're walking.
777
00:49:25,538 --> 00:49:27,129
But, you know,
the more and more
778
00:49:27,131 --> 00:49:28,998
you're building that trust
and that relationship,
779
00:49:29,074 --> 00:49:31,291
the more and more
you can push that envelope.
780
00:49:31,368 --> 00:49:33,594
And you kind of see
that develop
781
00:49:33,671 --> 00:49:35,846
with my interviews
with Bittaker.
782
00:49:48,177 --> 00:49:51,103
He had made me say
a couple promises to him,
783
00:49:51,180 --> 00:49:52,855
and one of the promises
I made to him
784
00:49:52,931 --> 00:49:54,773
was I would always be
a good mother.
785
00:49:54,850 --> 00:49:56,525
He used to say to me, "If
I just had one good parent--
786
00:49:56,602 --> 00:49:57,693
"if I had one good parent,
787
00:49:57,770 --> 00:50:00,446
I wouldn't have become
this monster."
788
00:50:00,456 --> 00:50:05,284
¶ ¶
789
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,786
The third and fourth victims
of the Toolbox Killers
790
00:50:07,863 --> 00:50:12,291
were Leah Lamp
and Jackie Gilliam.
791
00:50:12,367 --> 00:50:15,377
- In 1979, I was 14 years old.
792
00:50:15,454 --> 00:50:18,255
I met Jackie when she moved
into the apartment complex
793
00:50:18,332 --> 00:50:20,257
next door to ours,
794
00:50:20,334 --> 00:50:22,476
and we became fast friends.
795
00:50:22,553 --> 00:50:26,597
Jackie was beautiful.
She was amazing.
796
00:50:26,673 --> 00:50:29,725
This smile is so genuine.
797
00:50:29,802 --> 00:50:31,477
Jackie stayed
at my house a lot,
798
00:50:31,553 --> 00:50:34,772
and we used to spend
a lot of time
799
00:50:34,848 --> 00:50:37,149
taking the bus
to the Santa Monica Beach,
800
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,568
pretty much every day
in the summer.
801
00:50:39,645 --> 00:50:41,070
One day she told me
that she was gonna go
802
00:50:41,146 --> 00:50:43,614
to Redondo Beach
to stay with her stepsister,
803
00:50:43,690 --> 00:50:46,658
and I never heard
from her again.
804
00:50:46,735 --> 00:50:49,253
- Leah Lamp was 13.
805
00:50:49,330 --> 00:50:50,913
She was very bright.
806
00:50:50,989 --> 00:50:52,748
Had just finished
junior high school,
807
00:50:52,825 --> 00:50:55,918
and she was ready to start
high school in the fall.
808
00:50:55,994 --> 00:50:58,512
Her mother had
a new wardrobe for her,
809
00:50:58,589 --> 00:51:00,506
and she was really looking
forward to it.
810
00:51:00,516 --> 00:51:04,134
Jackie met Leah Lamp,
and they had become friends.
811
00:51:04,211 --> 00:51:08,263
One day, Leah and Jackie
decided to go to the beach.
812
00:51:08,340 --> 00:51:10,649
¶ ¶
813
00:51:23,689 --> 00:51:24,980
- Bittaker and Norris saw them
814
00:51:25,057 --> 00:51:27,500
and came up and asked them
if they needed a ride.
815
00:51:43,801 --> 00:51:45,884
- When they got into the van,
816
00:51:45,961 --> 00:51:48,470
Norris and Bittaker
offered them a joint,
817
00:51:48,547 --> 00:51:50,681
and they were sitting
in the back of the van
818
00:51:50,757 --> 00:51:52,975
with Norris,
smoking this joint.
819
00:51:53,051 --> 00:51:55,811
That is when Norris
took a homemade sap.
820
00:51:55,888 --> 00:51:58,355
- It was full of BBs,
really heavy.
821
00:51:58,432 --> 00:52:02,901
And he hit Leah in the head
with it and knocked her out.
822
00:52:02,978 --> 00:52:05,195
- While Leah was down,
he tried to grab Jackie.
823
00:52:05,272 --> 00:52:07,823
- At some point,
Leah regained consciousness
824
00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:09,533
and tried to get out
of the van.
825
00:52:09,610 --> 00:52:11,752
- It was on front
of tennis courts,
826
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:13,245
so people were playing tennis
827
00:52:13,322 --> 00:52:14,997
and actually stopped,
looked over.
828
00:52:15,073 --> 00:52:17,758
Leah Lamp jumped
out of the van, screaming.
829
00:52:17,835 --> 00:52:20,419
- Bittaker stopped the van,
came around,
830
00:52:20,495 --> 00:52:23,380
and slugged Leah in the face
as hard as he could,
831
00:52:23,391 --> 00:52:24,965
knocking her back.
832
00:52:25,042 --> 00:52:26,758
He turned to everybody
and said,
833
00:52:26,835 --> 00:52:28,561
"She's having a bad LSD trip."
834
00:52:28,637 --> 00:52:35,693
¶ ¶
835
00:52:42,351 --> 00:52:44,151
¶ ¶
836
00:52:44,228 --> 00:52:46,111
- Leah Lamp was 13 years old,
837
00:52:46,188 --> 00:52:48,405
and Jackie Gilliam
was 15 years old.
838
00:52:48,482 --> 00:52:51,542
When they got into the van,
Norris took a homemade sap,
839
00:52:51,619 --> 00:52:54,286
hit Leah Lamp over the back
of the head with it.
840
00:52:54,297 --> 00:52:57,247
While Leah was down,
he then tried to grab Jackie.
841
00:52:57,324 --> 00:52:59,750
- At some point,
Leah regained consciousness
842
00:52:59,826 --> 00:53:01,585
and tried to get
out of the van.
843
00:53:01,662 --> 00:53:04,713
- Leah Lamp actually jumped
out of the van, screaming.
844
00:53:04,790 --> 00:53:06,673
It was in front
of tennis courts.
845
00:53:06,750 --> 00:53:08,175
So people were playing tennis
846
00:53:08,186 --> 00:53:10,135
and actually stopped,
looked over.
847
00:53:10,212 --> 00:53:12,387
- Bittaker stopped the van,
came around,
848
00:53:12,464 --> 00:53:15,015
and slugged Leah in the face
as hard as he could,
849
00:53:15,092 --> 00:53:16,934
knocking her back.
850
00:53:17,010 --> 00:53:18,635
- He turned to everybody
and said,
851
00:53:18,713 --> 00:53:22,189
"She's having a bad LSD trip.
I'm just taking her home."
852
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,442
¶ ¶
853
00:53:25,519 --> 00:53:28,329
They took the girls
up to San Gabriel Mountain.
854
00:53:28,405 --> 00:53:31,990
¶ ¶
855
00:53:32,067 --> 00:53:34,534
- Bittaker told Jackie
that he was gonna rape her
856
00:53:34,611 --> 00:53:38,330
and she better pretend
that she was enjoying it.
857
00:53:38,407 --> 00:53:40,841
- Bittaker finds out
that she is a virgin,
858
00:53:40,918 --> 00:53:45,128
and he wants to audio-record
the rape of a virgin.
859
00:53:45,205 --> 00:53:47,631
So he took the audio recorder,
860
00:53:47,708 --> 00:53:51,352
and when he was raping Jackie,
she was screaming.
861
00:54:13,233 --> 00:54:15,367
That is not what he admitted
later in person.
862
00:54:15,378 --> 00:54:17,878
You know, these girls
were scared out of their mind.
863
00:54:17,955 --> 00:54:19,955
Sadists are getting off
on that fear.
864
00:54:20,032 --> 00:54:21,999
That's what they love.
That's what they want to see.
865
00:54:22,075 --> 00:54:23,375
- When Bittaker would talk
866
00:54:23,452 --> 00:54:26,178
about the girls
went willingly with him,
867
00:54:26,255 --> 00:54:28,922
he's trying to minimize
any responsibility
868
00:54:28,999 --> 00:54:32,050
he has for these murders.
869
00:54:32,127 --> 00:54:34,928
- There was a ton
of photographs taken
870
00:54:35,005 --> 00:54:37,481
of Jackie Gilliam--
sexual acts with Bittaker.
871
00:54:54,658 --> 00:54:57,534
What's really haunting
about the pictures
872
00:54:57,611 --> 00:54:59,870
with Jackie Gilliam is,
873
00:54:59,946 --> 00:55:01,213
you know, it's very clear
874
00:55:01,290 --> 00:55:03,081
she has a black eye
in the pictures.
875
00:55:03,158 --> 00:55:05,250
Her ankles are bound.
Her wrists are bound.
876
00:55:05,327 --> 00:55:07,711
She's naked
in the back of a van.
877
00:55:07,788 --> 00:55:10,714
And she has a smile
on her face.
878
00:55:10,791 --> 00:55:13,717
Obviously
Bittaker forced her to smile
879
00:55:13,794 --> 00:55:16,887
during these pictures
that he took of her.
880
00:55:16,963 --> 00:55:20,432
- He showed some of these
photographs to other people,
881
00:55:20,509 --> 00:55:22,476
so he had no sense
of what's appropriate
882
00:55:22,552 --> 00:55:23,685
and what's not appropriate.
883
00:55:23,762 --> 00:55:25,187
So he used it to masturbate,
884
00:55:25,263 --> 00:55:28,315
and then he used it thinking
he was impressing people.
885
00:55:28,392 --> 00:55:32,736
¶ ¶
886
00:55:32,813 --> 00:55:34,821
- Bittaker decides,
"Well, we don't have
887
00:55:34,898 --> 00:55:36,248
"to go to work tomorrow,
888
00:55:36,325 --> 00:55:38,784
so let's sleep
with the girls overnight."
889
00:55:38,860 --> 00:55:41,503
- They slept in the van,
and they took shifts sleeping
890
00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:43,421
and watching the girls.
891
00:55:43,423 --> 00:55:47,709
- Bittaker was in the van.
Norris stood guard.
892
00:55:47,786 --> 00:55:50,754
- Bittaker and Roy Norris
kept them the longest.
893
00:55:50,831 --> 00:55:52,514
It was somewhere
around 48 hours.
894
00:56:13,895 --> 00:56:16,571
- Eventually Bittaker decided
895
00:56:16,648 --> 00:56:19,282
that he had had enough,
and so...
896
00:56:19,293 --> 00:56:23,161
he cradled Jackie's head
in one hand,
897
00:56:23,238 --> 00:56:25,297
took the ice pick
with the other hand,
898
00:56:25,374 --> 00:56:28,667
and drove it
into her ear canal,
899
00:56:28,743 --> 00:56:30,502
into the brain.
900
00:56:30,513 --> 00:56:33,338
Went to take it out,
but the handle came off.
901
00:56:33,415 --> 00:56:35,340
- When Jackie's skull
was found,
902
00:56:35,417 --> 00:56:39,019
the ice pick was embedded
into the skull.
903
00:56:39,096 --> 00:56:42,189
¶ ¶
904
00:56:56,271 --> 00:56:59,197
- And then they got
the girls' bodies
905
00:56:59,274 --> 00:57:01,116
much the way they did
with Cindy,
906
00:57:01,193 --> 00:57:03,952
and they tossed them
as far as they could
907
00:57:04,029 --> 00:57:07,339
down this really steep ravine.
908
00:57:08,459 --> 00:57:11,793
- Jackie Gilliam and Leah Lamp
were the only two victims
909
00:57:11,870 --> 00:57:15,130
that were found
up on San Gabriel Mountain.
910
00:57:15,141 --> 00:57:18,884
It was just partial remains
of their bones were recovered.
911
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,261
¶ ¶
912
00:57:21,338 --> 00:57:23,722
They told me she was tortured.
913
00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:28,101
They told me there was
an ice pick stuck in her ear.
914
00:57:28,178 --> 00:57:30,571
¶ ¶
915
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:37,077
It wasn't a pretty picture,
the things they said.
916
00:57:37,154 --> 00:57:39,571
¶ ¶
917
00:57:39,582 --> 00:57:41,490
- It's just devastating.
918
00:57:41,566 --> 00:57:43,241
I remember one day,
919
00:57:43,318 --> 00:57:46,036
Leah Lamp's mother
was in my office.
920
00:57:46,112 --> 00:57:47,537
Her name was Myrna Carlisle.
921
00:57:47,614 --> 00:57:50,248
And I said, "Myrna,
you don't look so good.
922
00:57:50,325 --> 00:57:52,167
Have you been sleeping
all right?"
923
00:57:52,244 --> 00:57:54,711
She said, "I don't sleep.
924
00:57:54,788 --> 00:57:57,172
"I have two eight-hour jobs,
925
00:57:57,249 --> 00:57:59,224
"one in the daytime
and one at night,
926
00:57:59,301 --> 00:58:01,760
"because I can't go to sleep,
because if I sleep,
927
00:58:01,836 --> 00:58:06,139
I have nightmares about
how my daughter was murdered."
928
00:58:06,216 --> 00:58:09,392
And, oh, my gosh.
929
00:58:09,469 --> 00:58:11,111
- I don't think at that age
I understood
930
00:58:11,188 --> 00:58:13,405
really what was going on
931
00:58:13,482 --> 00:58:17,275
until the detectives
started coming to my house.
932
00:58:17,352 --> 00:58:19,236
It was horrible hearing
things like that
933
00:58:19,246 --> 00:58:21,821
about one of my best friends.
934
00:58:21,898 --> 00:58:25,033
Jackie didn't deserve that.
935
00:58:25,110 --> 00:58:26,743
- Both Bittaker and Norris
936
00:58:26,820 --> 00:58:28,703
knew that the police
had nothing on them
937
00:58:28,780 --> 00:58:31,122
and that they were
not being looked for.
938
00:58:31,133 --> 00:58:32,757
They started
to feel invincible,
939
00:58:32,759 --> 00:58:36,002
and they started
getting bolder and bolder.
940
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:38,964
- October 31, 1979--
941
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,341
Bittaker and Norris
were out looking for victims.
942
00:58:41,418 --> 00:58:43,260
It was kind of late at night.
943
00:58:43,336 --> 00:58:44,761
- They were away
from The Strand.
944
00:58:44,838 --> 00:58:46,179
They were out in the Valley,
945
00:58:46,256 --> 00:58:49,474
which was a deviation
from their normal pattern.
946
00:58:49,551 --> 00:58:51,851
Shirley Lynette Ledford--
947
00:58:51,928 --> 00:58:53,311
just a young girl
948
00:58:53,388 --> 00:58:56,448
in the wrong place
at the wrong time.
949
00:58:56,525 --> 00:58:59,359
- She was a 16-year-old girl
who lived in Burbank.
950
00:58:59,436 --> 00:59:02,821
- She had a boyfriend.
Had a lot of friends.
951
00:59:02,897 --> 00:59:04,447
- She was a wonderful person.
952
00:59:04,524 --> 00:59:08,326
She just thought only
the best of people.
953
00:59:08,403 --> 00:59:10,453
- Lynette had been
at a Halloween party.
954
00:59:10,530 --> 00:59:12,330
- All the friends
I've talked to
955
00:59:12,341 --> 00:59:14,082
said they had
a great time at the party.
956
00:59:14,159 --> 00:59:15,917
She was happy.
957
00:59:15,994 --> 00:59:18,670
- She was hitchhiking home.
958
00:59:18,681 --> 00:59:21,506
- Bittaker and Norris
spotted her.
959
00:59:21,583 --> 00:59:24,175
- We picked her up
north of Burbank,
960
00:59:24,252 --> 00:59:25,510
and she jumped right in.
961
00:59:25,587 --> 00:59:28,355
I mean,
she wanted a ride somewhere.
962
00:59:30,050 --> 00:59:33,143
Bittaker grabbed her
and threw her in the back.
963
00:59:33,219 --> 00:59:34,811
He and I both
struggled with her.
964
00:59:34,888 --> 00:59:38,156
You know,
he pulled out a knife.
965
00:59:38,233 --> 00:59:40,650
- She grabbed the knife blade
966
00:59:40,727 --> 00:59:44,571
and cut her finger
pretty seriously.
967
00:59:44,648 --> 00:59:48,742
¶ ¶
968
00:59:48,818 --> 00:59:51,587
- If you look
at Lynette Ledford...
969
00:59:51,663 --> 00:59:56,124
¶ ¶
970
00:59:56,135 --> 00:59:58,126
It's showing
this progression of sadism
971
00:59:58,137 --> 01:00:00,462
and how much worse
they are getting
972
01:00:00,538 --> 01:00:02,514
with each and every murder.
973
01:00:02,591 --> 01:00:09,479
¶ ¶
974
01:00:18,348 --> 01:00:22,034
¶ ¶
975
01:00:22,110 --> 01:00:24,152
- Shirley Lynette Ledford--
976
01:00:24,229 --> 01:00:27,581
just a young girl in the wrong
place and the wrong time.
977
01:00:48,503 --> 01:00:50,845
- Bittaker grabbed Lynette
978
01:00:50,922 --> 01:00:53,515
and threw her
into the back of the van.
979
01:00:53,591 --> 01:00:55,225
Bittaker had a knife.
980
01:00:55,301 --> 01:00:57,944
She grabbed the knife blade
981
01:00:58,021 --> 01:01:00,438
and cut her finger
pretty seriously.
982
01:01:00,515 --> 01:01:04,734
¶ ¶
983
01:01:04,811 --> 01:01:08,530
- They were able to get her
bound in the back of the van.
984
01:01:08,606 --> 01:01:10,281
They didn't bring her
to the mountains.
985
01:01:10,292 --> 01:01:13,159
They brought her
to, like, a gravel dirt path,
986
01:01:13,236 --> 01:01:15,745
somewhere isolated
but still in Burbank.
987
01:01:15,822 --> 01:01:20,384
That's where they proceeded
to torture and rape her.
988
01:01:21,786 --> 01:01:24,546
During the time of these rape
and torture,
989
01:01:24,622 --> 01:01:27,549
Bittaker and Norris
are making her play along
990
01:01:27,625 --> 01:01:29,643
that she likes it.
991
01:01:49,647 --> 01:01:51,957
- Bittaker wasn't after
loving porn,
992
01:01:52,033 --> 01:01:55,452
and I'm not even sure
what that phrase means.
993
01:01:55,462 --> 01:01:57,036
This tape was gonna be used
994
01:01:57,113 --> 01:02:00,039
for his own
sexual gratification
995
01:02:00,116 --> 01:02:01,583
after the attack had ended.
996
01:02:01,659 --> 01:02:03,918
Bittaker would want
to listen to it again
997
01:02:03,995 --> 01:02:06,847
as he thought about what
he had done to his victims.
998
01:02:18,676 --> 01:02:20,810
- She was beaten
around the chest,
999
01:02:20,887 --> 01:02:21,862
around the face.
1000
01:02:21,938 --> 01:02:24,397
- Bittaker raped her
and tortured her
1001
01:02:24,474 --> 01:02:26,658
with pliers and screwdriver.
1002
01:02:37,946 --> 01:02:41,206
He and Norris
then traded spots.
1003
01:02:41,282 --> 01:02:43,166
Norris, to get her to scream,
1004
01:02:43,243 --> 01:02:45,594
hit her on the elbow
with a sledgehammer.
1005
01:03:00,885 --> 01:03:03,144
- They wanted to capture
the girl's scream,
1006
01:03:03,221 --> 01:03:05,030
and the girls' screams
is what got them off.
1007
01:03:05,106 --> 01:03:07,732
So, you know,
if she wasn't screaming
1008
01:03:07,809 --> 01:03:09,984
as loud enough as they wanted,
1009
01:03:10,061 --> 01:03:12,370
the torture kept getting
worse and worse.
1010
01:03:35,136 --> 01:03:39,305
- When Larry talks
about it being spontaneous,
1011
01:03:39,382 --> 01:03:42,559
it's an effort to take away
the criminality from it.
1012
01:03:42,635 --> 01:03:47,522
And yet, they have a van that
they purposely soundproofed.
1013
01:03:47,599 --> 01:03:50,859
They engaged
in predatory behavior.
1014
01:03:50,935 --> 01:03:53,361
- Roy Norris
took a coat hanger
1015
01:03:53,438 --> 01:03:57,240
and wrapped it around her neck
and used pliers to twist it.
1016
01:03:57,251 --> 01:03:58,750
When they found her body
1017
01:03:58,827 --> 01:04:01,703
and took this metal
coat hanger off of her neck,
1018
01:04:01,779 --> 01:04:03,788
it was the size
of a silver dollar.
1019
01:04:03,865 --> 01:04:06,550
That's how much he had
twisted it around her neck.
1020
01:04:08,494 --> 01:04:10,545
- It was, like, getting late,
1021
01:04:10,622 --> 01:04:12,472
real late
in the early morning.
1022
01:04:12,549 --> 01:04:14,465
I had to be back
to work at 7:30.
1023
01:04:14,542 --> 01:04:16,759
I had a long way to drive.
1024
01:04:16,836 --> 01:04:20,555
We finally just decided
that we'd just dump her off,
1025
01:04:20,632 --> 01:04:23,141
you know, probably
on somebody's lawn,
1026
01:04:23,217 --> 01:04:24,767
more than anything else,
1027
01:04:24,844 --> 01:04:26,862
to see what reaction
we would get in the papers,
1028
01:04:26,938 --> 01:04:30,106
'cause he wanted to know
how society would react to it,
1029
01:04:30,183 --> 01:04:31,232
I guess.
1030
01:04:31,309 --> 01:04:36,738
¶ ¶
1031
01:04:36,748 --> 01:04:40,992
- The next day, the woman's
property who it was on,
1032
01:04:41,003 --> 01:04:44,203
she actually thought it was
a mannequin from Halloween.
1033
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:48,133
Lynette was discarded there
for the purpose
1034
01:04:48,209 --> 01:04:51,377
of messing
with the cops and the press.
1035
01:04:51,454 --> 01:04:54,839
They wanted to get a reaction
from everybody.
1036
01:04:54,916 --> 01:04:57,517
There was a lot more girls
they were already stalking
1037
01:04:57,594 --> 01:04:59,636
and planning to attack
at this point.
1038
01:04:59,712 --> 01:05:01,521
One was an airline stewardess,
1039
01:05:01,598 --> 01:05:05,350
and one was a 13-year-old girl
in a residential neighborhood.
1040
01:05:05,426 --> 01:05:08,770
- I believe that Roy and Larry
would have continued
1041
01:05:08,780 --> 01:05:13,316
to kidnap, assault,
and torture young girls
1042
01:05:13,393 --> 01:05:16,319
until they got caught.
1043
01:05:16,396 --> 01:05:18,529
They would not have stopped.
1044
01:05:18,606 --> 01:05:20,540
¶ ¶
1045
01:05:20,617 --> 01:05:22,116
- When Roy was in jail,
1046
01:05:22,193 --> 01:05:24,953
he became friends
with a guy named Joe Jackson.
1047
01:05:25,029 --> 01:05:29,874
One day, Roy tells Jackson
that he has been kidnapping,
1048
01:05:29,951 --> 01:05:31,793
raping, and murdering girls
1049
01:05:31,869 --> 01:05:34,504
all over the South Bay
with Lawrence Bittaker.
1050
01:05:34,580 --> 01:05:35,839
- Told me that he killed them
1051
01:05:35,915 --> 01:05:37,799
because this way
he could sleep at night
1052
01:05:37,875 --> 01:05:40,969
and not have to worry
about being identified.
1053
01:05:41,045 --> 01:05:44,856
- It disturbed, you know,
Jackson so much, so deeply
1054
01:05:44,933 --> 01:05:48,652
that even a serial rapist
himself went to the cops.
1055
01:05:49,971 --> 01:05:52,146
- Detectives at Hermosa Beach,
1056
01:05:52,223 --> 01:05:55,149
Paul Bynum and his partner,
Tom Cray,
1057
01:05:55,226 --> 01:05:58,569
got really interested
in these guys.
1058
01:05:58,646 --> 01:06:00,279
Bynum started thinking
more about it
1059
01:06:00,356 --> 01:06:03,491
and said, "You know,
this guy isn't smart enough
1060
01:06:03,568 --> 01:06:05,351
to cook up these facts."
1061
01:06:05,353 --> 01:06:08,037
And they wanted to have
a rolling surveillance
1062
01:06:08,114 --> 01:06:10,340
of Norris.
1063
01:06:10,417 --> 01:06:11,708
They followed Norris.
1064
01:06:11,784 --> 01:06:13,960
Norris stopped at a drugstore,
1065
01:06:14,037 --> 01:06:18,715
and he left a shopping bag
in the front seat, open.
1066
01:06:18,791 --> 01:06:20,641
Bynum looked in
1067
01:06:20,719 --> 01:06:24,095
and saw that the shopping bag
was full of marijuana.
1068
01:06:25,706 --> 01:06:29,017
So the police came up
and stuck a gun in his ear,
1069
01:06:29,093 --> 01:06:32,562
said, "I'm putting you under
arrest for parole violation,"
1070
01:06:32,638 --> 01:06:36,524
and that meant that they could
search Norris' residence.
1071
01:06:36,601 --> 01:06:40,361
And, boy, did they find a lot
in Norris' residence.
1072
01:06:40,372 --> 01:06:44,032
¶ ¶
1073
01:06:44,108 --> 01:06:48,244
They found about
500 photographs of young women
1074
01:06:48,321 --> 01:06:51,372
taken in supermarket
parking lots,
1075
01:06:51,383 --> 01:06:55,460
women's gyms, girls walking
home from high school.
1076
01:06:55,536 --> 01:06:57,336
- Every one
of these photographs
1077
01:06:57,413 --> 01:06:59,005
represents a potential victim.
1078
01:06:59,082 --> 01:07:01,424
- They also found
the photograph
1079
01:07:01,501 --> 01:07:04,761
of the girl who was nude
from the waist up,
1080
01:07:04,837 --> 01:07:06,888
with her hands folded
behind her head,
1081
01:07:06,964 --> 01:07:10,433
who we now know
is Jackie Gilliam.
1082
01:07:10,444 --> 01:07:13,227
¶ ¶
1083
01:07:13,304 --> 01:07:16,731
While they were there,
Bittaker called and said,
1084
01:07:16,808 --> 01:07:18,158
"Well, where's Norris?"
1085
01:07:18,234 --> 01:07:19,776
And somebody said,
1086
01:07:19,852 --> 01:07:23,154
"Oh, well, he's up on the roof
fixing his antenna."
1087
01:07:23,231 --> 01:07:25,615
Well, Bittaker thought
that there was something fishy,
1088
01:07:25,691 --> 01:07:28,743
so he hurriedly cleaned out
his van.
1089
01:07:28,820 --> 01:07:30,787
- The photographs, the tapes--
1090
01:07:30,863 --> 01:07:32,672
he does an entire sweep
of this van.
1091
01:07:32,749 --> 01:07:34,049
He got rid of everything.
1092
01:07:42,166 --> 01:07:45,259
When they were doing a search
at Norris' duplex,
1093
01:07:45,336 --> 01:07:48,387
they found a little card
that said "the Scott's Motel,"
1094
01:07:48,464 --> 01:07:49,814
with Bittaker's name on it.
1095
01:07:49,891 --> 01:07:52,391
So they sent over
the Burbank PD that night.
1096
01:07:52,468 --> 01:07:54,819
They kicked in his door
and his window.
1097
01:07:54,896 --> 01:07:57,438
He was in the shower
when they arrested him.
1098
01:07:57,515 --> 01:08:00,608
¶ ¶
1099
01:08:00,685 --> 01:08:02,068
- The Sheriff's Department
1100
01:08:02,145 --> 01:08:04,153
identified Roy Norris
and Lawrence Bittaker...
1101
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:07,082
- Raping and murdering
five teenage girls.
1102
01:08:07,158 --> 01:08:09,534
- The evil
that these guys caused,
1103
01:08:09,610 --> 01:08:12,787
it really captured the fear
of the city of Los Angeles.
1104
01:08:12,864 --> 01:08:14,956
- Teenagers brutally attacked.
1105
01:08:14,966 --> 01:08:16,507
- Just a lot more careful
about where I go.
1106
01:08:16,584 --> 01:08:18,459
- I'm afraid to be
walking down the street.
1107
01:08:18,536 --> 01:08:21,754
- I got a call
that Bynum and Cray had a case
1108
01:08:21,831 --> 01:08:23,965
that they wanted me to review,
1109
01:08:24,041 --> 01:08:26,801
and I saw the name Roy Norris,
and I thought,
1110
01:08:26,878 --> 01:08:29,887
"Wait, but he got sent
to prison,
1111
01:08:29,898 --> 01:08:31,206
"three years to life.
1112
01:08:31,208 --> 01:08:33,149
That can't be the same one."
1113
01:08:33,226 --> 01:08:36,394
- One of the suspects,
32-year-old Roy Lewis Norris,
1114
01:08:36,470 --> 01:08:39,355
has implicated
Lawrence Simon Bittaker.
1115
01:08:39,432 --> 01:08:41,315
- It was kind of
like pulling teeth,
1116
01:08:41,392 --> 01:08:44,235
but Norris eventually
signed an agreement
1117
01:08:44,312 --> 01:08:48,156
that he could plead guilty
to all of the murders,
1118
01:08:48,232 --> 01:08:51,742
and he would get a sentence
of 45 years to life,
1119
01:08:51,819 --> 01:08:56,247
and he would have to lead us
to the bodies of the victims.
1120
01:08:56,324 --> 01:08:58,708
Norris, of course, was the one
leading the searches,
1121
01:08:58,784 --> 01:09:03,138
because he knew, supposedly,
where the bodies were.
1122
01:09:03,214 --> 01:09:06,799
Searches in January
didn't find anything.
1123
01:09:06,876 --> 01:09:09,427
Went searching
on the 8th of February.
1124
01:09:09,503 --> 01:09:11,679
Didn't find anything.
1125
01:09:11,756 --> 01:09:14,015
And then on the 9th,
with the help
1126
01:09:14,091 --> 01:09:16,601
of the Sierra Madre
Search and Rescue Team,
1127
01:09:16,677 --> 01:09:21,105
we climbed down
this incredibly steep ravine,
1128
01:09:21,182 --> 01:09:24,150
about 300 feet down.
1129
01:09:24,227 --> 01:09:28,413
That's where the remains
of Jackie and Leah were found.
1130
01:09:30,816 --> 01:09:32,617
- It was
partial skeletal remains,
1131
01:09:32,627 --> 01:09:36,287
only, you know, a few months
after they had been killed.
1132
01:09:36,298 --> 01:09:38,748
Jackie Gilliam
had the ice pick
1133
01:09:38,824 --> 01:09:40,625
embedded in the skull.
1134
01:09:40,701 --> 01:09:42,210
- Bittaker was not
that cooperative.
1135
01:09:42,286 --> 01:09:45,213
He said he wanted to talk.
He waived his rights.
1136
01:09:45,289 --> 01:09:48,466
And he just said,
"You ain't got sh--."
1137
01:09:48,542 --> 01:09:51,677
- Bittaker stripped
this entire van clean,
1138
01:09:51,754 --> 01:09:54,847
but he had missed one thing...
1139
01:09:54,924 --> 01:09:58,100
the Ledford tape
in the cassette player.
1140
01:09:58,177 --> 01:10:00,102
- It was like something
that none of us
1141
01:10:00,179 --> 01:10:01,771
had ever heard before.
1142
01:10:01,847 --> 01:10:04,482
I mean,
it was the tape recording
1143
01:10:04,558 --> 01:10:06,442
of an actual murder.
1144
01:10:09,480 --> 01:10:10,914
¶ ¶
1145
01:10:17,571 --> 01:10:20,748
¶ ¶
1146
01:10:20,825 --> 01:10:22,133
- The Sheriff's Department
1147
01:10:22,210 --> 01:10:24,460
identified Roy Norris
and Lawrence Bittaker
1148
01:10:24,537 --> 01:10:28,005
as the main suspects
in five local rape-murders.
1149
01:10:28,016 --> 01:10:29,799
- The jury of seven women
and five men
1150
01:10:29,875 --> 01:10:33,010
is expected to get the case
on Wednesday.
1151
01:10:33,087 --> 01:10:34,887
- The Bittaker trial
was the first case
1152
01:10:34,964 --> 01:10:36,305
in California history
1153
01:10:36,382 --> 01:10:38,933
that they allowed cameras
in the courtroom,
1154
01:10:39,010 --> 01:10:42,520
over the objection
of the defense.
1155
01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:45,189
Bittaker did not want
those cameras in the courtroom.
1156
01:10:45,266 --> 01:10:47,608
His attorneys didn't want them
in the courtroom.
1157
01:10:47,685 --> 01:10:49,986
But the judge, Fredericks,
1158
01:10:50,062 --> 01:10:52,113
said, "No, this is
too important."
1159
01:10:52,189 --> 01:10:55,199
Every newspaper,
every television station
1160
01:10:55,276 --> 01:10:57,159
had a reporter covering it.
1161
01:10:57,236 --> 01:10:59,211
- Norris, you'll recall,
pleaded guilty
1162
01:10:59,289 --> 01:11:02,748
to all the charges and agreed
to testify against Bittaker
1163
01:11:02,825 --> 01:11:05,167
in order to avoid
the death penalty.
1164
01:11:05,178 --> 01:11:07,512
- Bittaker pled not guilty.
1165
01:11:07,588 --> 01:11:09,755
Did I think
I was gonna get a conviction?
1166
01:11:09,832 --> 01:11:11,507
Well, I hoped I would,
1167
01:11:11,584 --> 01:11:14,385
but it was not
a foregone conclusion.
1168
01:11:14,462 --> 01:11:16,887
- The trial is expected
to take two months.
1169
01:11:16,964 --> 01:11:19,774
Bittaker could get the
death penalty if convicted.
1170
01:11:19,851 --> 01:11:22,518
- These were all
wonderful girls.
1171
01:11:22,595 --> 01:11:25,438
I had their pictures
on a board
1172
01:11:25,514 --> 01:11:27,148
when I was giving
my opening statement,
1173
01:11:27,224 --> 01:11:29,158
'cause I wanted the jurors
to get to know
1174
01:11:29,235 --> 01:11:31,027
what these girls
were like in life.
1175
01:11:31,103 --> 01:11:34,405
- It was scary... scary.
1176
01:11:34,482 --> 01:11:36,416
I was uncomfortable
in the courtroom
1177
01:11:36,492 --> 01:11:38,951
looking at Lawrence Bittaker.
1178
01:11:39,028 --> 01:11:42,288
And I hated him
for what he had done.
1179
01:11:42,365 --> 01:11:44,749
- Norris said he didn't want
to kill the girl,
1180
01:11:44,825 --> 01:11:46,450
but said he was too afraid
1181
01:11:46,528 --> 01:11:49,170
of alleged accomplice
Lawrence Bittaker not to.
1182
01:11:49,246 --> 01:11:52,181
- Norris was responsible
for his own actions,
1183
01:11:52,258 --> 01:11:54,884
and he's lying about all of it.
1184
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:58,012
- Roy's version of the crimes,
a lot of times,
1185
01:11:58,089 --> 01:12:00,389
is very, very different
than Bittaker's.
1186
01:12:00,466 --> 01:12:03,100
- The defense attorneys
came to me first
1187
01:12:03,177 --> 01:12:06,070
because Larry was nice to me
1188
01:12:06,147 --> 01:12:09,699
and wanted me to testify
on his behalf.
1189
01:12:09,776 --> 01:12:11,359
They subpoenaed me.
1190
01:12:11,435 --> 01:12:14,070
I begged them
to not make me say...
1191
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:15,988
In front of the camera
1192
01:12:16,065 --> 01:12:18,458
that he was nice to me.
1193
01:12:18,534 --> 01:12:19,784
Tracee Lee Peña--
1194
01:12:19,860 --> 01:12:21,335
P-E-N-A.
1195
01:12:21,412 --> 01:12:24,372
I remember them
asking about the gun
1196
01:12:24,448 --> 01:12:26,707
and me talking about the gun.
1197
01:12:26,784 --> 01:12:29,960
And he was pissed
because I brought that up.
1198
01:12:29,971 --> 01:12:31,462
He was really pissed.
1199
01:12:31,539 --> 01:12:34,382
And I thought, "He's gonna
kill me in the courtroom."
1200
01:12:34,458 --> 01:12:37,551
Like, you know,
that's what's gonna happen.
1201
01:12:37,628 --> 01:12:42,223
- Oh, I thought about killing
Lawrence Bittaker at the trial.
1202
01:12:42,299 --> 01:12:44,558
I would dream that I had a gun,
1203
01:12:44,635 --> 01:12:46,727
and I snuck it
into the courtroom.
1204
01:12:46,804 --> 01:12:48,771
- This afternoon,
in a surprise move,
1205
01:12:48,848 --> 01:12:52,316
Bittaker took the stand
in his own defense.
1206
01:12:52,393 --> 01:12:53,776
- Basically
Bittaker's defense was,
1207
01:12:53,787 --> 01:12:55,820
"I didn't do it.
It was the other guy," right?
1208
01:12:55,896 --> 01:12:56,987
"It was Norris."
1209
01:12:56,998 --> 01:12:59,198
- Mr. Norris and another party
1210
01:12:59,275 --> 01:13:02,243
took turns raping her.
1211
01:13:02,319 --> 01:13:05,287
Mr. Norris killed her
1212
01:13:05,364 --> 01:13:08,416
with two hammer blows
to the head.
1213
01:13:08,492 --> 01:13:13,504
- Bittaker's defense
was that he didn't do it,
1214
01:13:13,515 --> 01:13:16,090
that Norris was the killer,
1215
01:13:16,167 --> 01:13:18,676
and was trying to blame him.
1216
01:13:18,686 --> 01:13:21,145
He said
that he wasn't even there
1217
01:13:21,222 --> 01:13:23,347
when Cindy Schaefer
was murdered.
1218
01:13:23,424 --> 01:13:26,559
- Have you ever seen
that young lady in person?
1219
01:13:26,635 --> 01:13:28,152
- No, sir.
1220
01:13:28,229 --> 01:13:29,895
- You ever taken
any photographs of this girl?
1221
01:13:29,972 --> 01:13:30,938
- No, sir.
1222
01:13:31,015 --> 01:13:33,357
- He said Andrea Hall
1223
01:13:33,368 --> 01:13:36,360
agreed to sex for $200.
1224
01:13:36,437 --> 01:13:38,320
- If she was bound and gagged,
as Mr. Norris states,
1225
01:13:38,397 --> 01:13:39,771
she wouldn't be able to hit me.
1226
01:13:39,849 --> 01:13:43,659
- He said Jackie Gilliam
agreed to $600
1227
01:13:43,736 --> 01:13:47,413
to pose in the photographs
of her taped up.
1228
01:13:47,490 --> 01:13:49,707
- She was paid
to make certain responses.
1229
01:13:49,783 --> 01:13:52,376
She was having difficulty
following those directions.
1230
01:13:52,453 --> 01:13:56,255
- And that Lynette Ledford
was drug-crazed.
1231
01:13:56,332 --> 01:13:57,840
- I cannot explain the actions
1232
01:13:57,917 --> 01:14:01,010
of a intoxicated individual
who's on PCP.
1233
01:14:01,086 --> 01:14:04,430
- He never said, "God, I wish
Norris hadn't don't that."
1234
01:14:04,507 --> 01:14:05,790
You know?
1235
01:14:05,866 --> 01:14:08,684
"I wish I had known.
I could've stopped him."
1236
01:14:08,761 --> 01:14:09,868
None of that.
1237
01:14:09,945 --> 01:14:11,779
- The main thing
I had going for me
1238
01:14:11,856 --> 01:14:13,731
was the Lynette Ledford
torture tape.
1239
01:14:13,807 --> 01:14:16,534
Nobody has ever had a piece
of evidence like that.
1240
01:14:16,611 --> 01:14:18,402
- The most dramatic moments
of the trial
1241
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:19,904
are expected
to come on Wednesday,
1242
01:14:19,980 --> 01:14:21,739
when a tape recording
of the torture
1243
01:14:21,815 --> 01:14:25,284
of the fifth murder victim
will be played to the jury.
1244
01:14:25,361 --> 01:14:26,735
- Stephen warned me.
1245
01:14:26,813 --> 01:14:28,871
He says, "You know,
this is gonna be pretty heavy."
1246
01:14:28,948 --> 01:14:31,290
They begin to play the tape.
1247
01:14:31,367 --> 01:14:33,834
¶ ¶
1248
01:14:33,845 --> 01:14:38,598
Now, I'm not even gonna try
to explain how bad it was.
1249
01:14:38,674 --> 01:14:42,426
But just let
your imagination think...
1250
01:14:42,503 --> 01:14:44,520
of the worst thing
you've ever heard,
1251
01:14:44,597 --> 01:14:48,774
because this poor girl
is just begging for her life.
1252
01:14:50,594 --> 01:14:54,104
- The tape was one of the worst
things I've ever heard
1253
01:14:54,115 --> 01:14:57,107
in my entire
professional career.
1254
01:14:57,184 --> 01:14:59,443
It should never see
the light of day.
1255
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,446
It is very, very,
very upsetting.
1256
01:15:02,523 --> 01:15:07,243
And, frankly,
it involves the torture
1257
01:15:07,319 --> 01:15:08,869
of an innocent young woman.
1258
01:15:08,946 --> 01:15:10,454
And, so, at her expense,
1259
01:15:10,531 --> 01:15:15,125
it should never, ever be played
for an audience.
1260
01:15:15,202 --> 01:15:21,465
¶ ¶
1261
01:15:21,542 --> 01:15:26,011
- I looked over to the jurors,
and they were in shock.
1262
01:15:26,088 --> 01:15:29,139
- Two of the jurors
openly started to cry.
1263
01:15:29,150 --> 01:15:32,977
Maybe half a dozen people
sitting in the audience
1264
01:15:33,053 --> 01:15:36,146
just got up and left.
1265
01:15:41,663 --> 01:15:46,365
- The courtroom artist
ran out in tears.
1266
01:15:49,078 --> 01:15:51,787
- I just never heard
anything like that in my life.
1267
01:15:51,864 --> 01:15:54,248
I've never heard screams
like that.
1268
01:15:54,325 --> 01:15:57,251
I don't know.
It was bad.
1269
01:15:57,328 --> 01:15:59,753
- As the tape is being played,
1270
01:15:59,764 --> 01:16:04,475
Larry is basically looking down
at a transcript of the tape.
1271
01:16:04,552 --> 01:16:07,595
He's reading along with it.
People are crying.
1272
01:16:07,671 --> 01:16:09,179
People are leaving
the courtroom.
1273
01:16:09,190 --> 01:16:10,931
Everything around him
1274
01:16:11,008 --> 01:16:13,976
is kind of turning
into this chaotic scene,
1275
01:16:14,053 --> 01:16:16,979
and these screams
are piercing through the air.
1276
01:16:17,056 --> 01:16:21,191
He's dead-focused,
with no emotion on his face.
1277
01:16:21,268 --> 01:16:25,871
¶ ¶
1278
01:16:58,305 --> 01:17:03,442
- I can tell you that
for two years after the trial,
1279
01:17:03,519 --> 01:17:05,653
I would have
a recurring nightmare
1280
01:17:05,729 --> 01:17:07,363
of hearing the girls scream
1281
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:09,865
and running to try
and save them
1282
01:17:09,942 --> 01:17:11,992
and always getting there
too late,
1283
01:17:12,069 --> 01:17:14,995
seeing the results
of ice picks in the head
1284
01:17:15,072 --> 01:17:17,873
and fractured skulls
1285
01:17:17,884 --> 01:17:21,168
and nipples ripped off
and everything.
1286
01:17:21,245 --> 01:17:22,920
And...
1287
01:17:22,930 --> 01:17:25,381
you know,
I was very depressed.
1288
01:17:25,457 --> 01:17:27,007
I won't lie about it.
1289
01:17:27,084 --> 01:17:30,010
I didn't have to take
antidepressants
1290
01:17:30,087 --> 01:17:31,470
after the Manson trial,
1291
01:17:31,547 --> 01:17:33,972
but I did
after the Bittaker trial.
1292
01:17:34,049 --> 01:17:36,934
I'm sorry.
1293
01:17:36,944 --> 01:17:38,686
- I think when Bittaker
took the stand--
1294
01:17:38,762 --> 01:17:41,730
I think that 138 IQ of his
1295
01:17:41,807 --> 01:17:44,149
worked
in the opposite direction.
1296
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:46,777
I think he truly thought
that he could get up there
1297
01:17:46,854 --> 01:17:51,490
on the stand and convince
the jurors that it wasn't him.
1298
01:17:51,567 --> 01:17:53,242
- She's saying,
"Don't touch me."
1299
01:17:53,318 --> 01:17:54,868
She's not screaming.
She's not crying.
1300
01:17:54,945 --> 01:17:56,370
She's not sobbing.
1301
01:17:56,447 --> 01:17:58,580
- I asked him,
"Would you please describe
1302
01:17:58,657 --> 01:18:01,083
"for the ladies and gentlemen
of the jury
1303
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,970
what we hear on the tape
of Lynette Ledford?"
1304
01:18:05,047 --> 01:18:08,549
And he said,
"Oh, it was just pillow talk."
1305
01:18:08,625 --> 01:18:11,969
- Mr. Norris was interested
in having the sounds
1306
01:18:12,045 --> 01:18:14,555
of domination or fear.
1307
01:18:14,631 --> 01:18:17,516
I wanted some sounds of...
1308
01:18:17,593 --> 01:18:20,060
pillow talk or...
1309
01:18:20,137 --> 01:18:21,770
kind of dirty talk.
1310
01:18:21,847 --> 01:18:24,231
- That this was all a setup,
1311
01:18:24,308 --> 01:18:26,108
that it was just pillow talk.
1312
01:18:26,185 --> 01:18:28,736
She was playing along
and screaming,
1313
01:18:28,812 --> 01:18:31,655
and he had paid her to do that.
1314
01:18:31,732 --> 01:18:35,409
- I just told her I liked
hearing that type of thing,
1315
01:18:35,486 --> 01:18:37,995
and...
1316
01:18:38,071 --> 01:18:40,998
I hadn't--didn't have a tape
at that time of such a thing,
1317
01:18:41,008 --> 01:18:44,334
so I asked her
if she would make one for me.
1318
01:18:44,411 --> 01:18:46,971
- There was gasps
in the courtroom.
1319
01:18:47,047 --> 01:18:51,008
- And you almost felt
like laughing in his face.
1320
01:18:51,018 --> 01:18:54,803
And then when he broke down
and started crying,
1321
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:58,223
it was as if we were
watching this farce.
1322
01:18:58,300 --> 01:19:00,726
For him to all of a sudden
have crocodile tears
1323
01:19:00,803 --> 01:19:02,895
running down his face,
1324
01:19:02,971 --> 01:19:05,105
nobody bought it.
1325
01:19:05,182 --> 01:19:06,857
Nobody bought it.
1326
01:19:06,934 --> 01:19:09,234
He was the murderer.
He was the torturer.
1327
01:19:09,311 --> 01:19:10,870
He was the bad guy.
1328
01:19:10,946 --> 01:19:17,910
¶ ¶
1329
01:19:25,503 --> 01:19:27,252
¶ ¶
1330
01:19:27,329 --> 01:19:29,588
- It took the jury
of seven women and five men
1331
01:19:29,665 --> 01:19:32,090
less than 2 1/2 days
of deliberation
1332
01:19:32,167 --> 01:19:34,134
to convict Bittaker
of 26 counts,
1333
01:19:34,145 --> 01:19:37,438
including kidnapping,
rape, torture, and murder.
1334
01:19:37,515 --> 01:19:41,642
- Going for the death penalty
was only partially my decision.
1335
01:19:41,718 --> 01:19:44,520
It had to be okayed
by the District Attorney,
1336
01:19:44,596 --> 01:19:46,814
who was against
capital punishment,
1337
01:19:46,890 --> 01:19:51,235
but this case was so egregious
that he agreed
1338
01:19:51,311 --> 01:19:54,655
that we should seek
the death penalty.
1339
01:19:54,731 --> 01:19:58,575
If the death penalty
isn't proper in this case,
1340
01:19:58,652 --> 01:20:01,495
when would it ever be proper?
1341
01:20:01,572 --> 01:20:02,704
- The jury went in the room
1342
01:20:02,781 --> 01:20:04,748
and just looked around
and just nodded.
1343
01:20:04,825 --> 01:20:07,417
- Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker
should be put to death
1344
01:20:07,494 --> 01:20:10,295
by administration
of lethal gas.
1345
01:20:10,372 --> 01:20:13,507
- They were unanimous
within 60 seconds,
1346
01:20:13,584 --> 01:20:15,684
giving him the death penalty.
1347
01:20:17,254 --> 01:20:21,682
- In 1978, the voters
had overwhelmingly approved
1348
01:20:21,692 --> 01:20:23,192
the death penalty.
1349
01:20:23,269 --> 01:20:25,978
But you had a very liberal
Supreme Court at that time.
1350
01:20:26,054 --> 01:20:28,322
You had a liberal governor.
1351
01:20:28,399 --> 01:20:31,733
It was always thought maybe,
with the appeals process,
1352
01:20:31,744 --> 01:20:34,403
it wasn't going to happen.
1353
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:36,321
And it ultimately didn't.
1354
01:20:36,332 --> 01:20:39,375
- Bittaker sat on death row,
1355
01:20:39,451 --> 01:20:42,035
playing bridge and chess.
1356
01:20:42,112 --> 01:20:44,329
I was planning on going
up there at his execution
1357
01:20:44,406 --> 01:20:49,126
and holding up the photographs
of the five girls.
1358
01:20:49,202 --> 01:20:52,880
But I never got
that chance.
1359
01:20:52,956 --> 01:20:55,507
It was a terrible case
to live through.
1360
01:20:55,584 --> 01:20:58,802
I mean, Paul Bynum,
who was the investigator
1361
01:20:58,879 --> 01:21:00,804
who broke the case,
1362
01:21:00,881 --> 01:21:02,973
ended up committing suicide,
1363
01:21:03,050 --> 01:21:05,434
and he left a suicide note
1364
01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:08,854
saying that he felt
1365
01:21:08,931 --> 01:21:11,732
that Bittaker and Norris
would get out
1366
01:21:11,808 --> 01:21:15,619
and Bittaker
would come after him
1367
01:21:15,696 --> 01:21:18,739
and that if he killed himself
1368
01:21:18,815 --> 01:21:20,991
that maybe Bittaker would let
1369
01:21:21,068 --> 01:21:24,253
his wife and daughter live.
1370
01:21:26,531 --> 01:21:30,342
¶ ¶
1371
01:21:45,842 --> 01:21:48,685
- He called me and said
he had cancer.
1372
01:21:48,696 --> 01:21:50,312
It was serious,
and it was a ton
1373
01:21:50,389 --> 01:21:51,647
of different types of cancer
1374
01:21:51,723 --> 01:21:53,616
spreading throughout
his whole body.
1375
01:21:58,956 --> 01:22:00,681
- I had pulled out my notes,
1376
01:22:00,758 --> 01:22:02,950
and I said, "Let's do, like,
a little round of fact-check."
1377
01:22:03,026 --> 01:22:06,078
I was like, "The remains
of Cindy and Andrea
1378
01:22:06,154 --> 01:22:08,080
"have not been found
to this day.
1379
01:22:08,156 --> 01:22:10,248
Correct?"
He's like, "Yes."
1380
01:22:10,325 --> 01:22:11,926
And then I'm, like,
about to go to my next point,
1381
01:22:12,002 --> 01:22:14,294
and he just grabs the paper
and the pen,
1382
01:22:14,371 --> 01:22:17,422
and he starts drawing a map
of the San Gabriel Mountains
1383
01:22:17,499 --> 01:22:20,726
and saying Norris gave
the wrong location for Cindy.
1384
01:22:20,803 --> 01:22:24,513
It's about a mile off
from where she actually was.
1385
01:22:24,589 --> 01:22:26,732
Then he's like, "Oh, he's
so wrong about Andrea."
1386
01:22:26,809 --> 01:22:28,141
So he's drawing this,
1387
01:22:28,218 --> 01:22:31,311
and he's, like,
telling me as he's drawing it.
1388
01:22:31,388 --> 01:22:33,939
I messaged
Andrea Hall's sister,
1389
01:22:34,016 --> 01:22:36,817
and I said,
"I know where your sister is."
1390
01:22:36,893 --> 01:22:38,276
And she called me.
1391
01:22:38,353 --> 01:22:41,080
She's like,
"We've never given up hope."
1392
01:22:41,156 --> 01:22:43,490
And...
1393
01:22:43,567 --> 01:22:45,450
it was just--
1394
01:22:45,527 --> 01:22:49,964
how hard I fought to get
this information from him...
1395
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:51,832
And just
hearing her say, like...
1396
01:22:53,577 --> 01:22:57,087
Just hearing her say, you know,
"We've never given up hope,"
1397
01:22:57,098 --> 01:22:58,764
it just made it all worth it
1398
01:22:58,841 --> 01:23:01,717
to get this information
to the families.
1399
01:23:05,047 --> 01:23:07,806
- The area was never searched.
1400
01:23:07,883 --> 01:23:10,892
Stephen Kay said
they had searched near there
1401
01:23:10,969 --> 01:23:12,361
but not that area.
1402
01:23:12,438 --> 01:23:18,325
So my hope is to find
my sister and bring her home.
1403
01:23:20,020 --> 01:23:22,738
- Laura's approach to Larry
1404
01:23:22,748 --> 01:23:25,073
was certainly different
than my approach.
1405
01:23:25,150 --> 01:23:26,908
But it could
have been effective
1406
01:23:26,985 --> 01:23:28,368
on several different levels.
1407
01:23:28,445 --> 01:23:31,121
It sounds like he did
give her information
1408
01:23:31,198 --> 01:23:33,123
that he certainly
had not given to me.
1409
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,208
But now it becomes important
1410
01:23:35,285 --> 01:23:38,670
to be able to verify
what he did say to her.
1411
01:23:38,747 --> 01:23:43,258
¶ ¶
1412
01:23:43,335 --> 01:23:45,135
- One night
Bittaker had a series
1413
01:23:45,212 --> 01:23:46,887
of heart attacks
during the night,
1414
01:23:46,963 --> 01:23:48,221
and he had his heart medication
1415
01:23:48,298 --> 01:23:50,024
he was popping
all through the night.
1416
01:23:59,684 --> 01:24:01,251
He was dying.
1417
01:24:01,253 --> 01:24:05,080
He was a ball of emotions
and anxious and upset.
1418
01:24:15,659 --> 01:24:18,001
- And he was really, you know,
1419
01:24:18,078 --> 01:24:20,253
starting to process
what he had done.
1420
01:24:20,330 --> 01:24:23,340
I think that's when
it all started to hit him.
1421
01:24:35,821 --> 01:24:39,272
- Friday the 13th, 2019,
1422
01:24:39,349 --> 01:24:42,901
I had just returned from
California from seeing him.
1423
01:24:42,978 --> 01:24:45,362
I got a call
that he passed away.
1424
01:24:45,438 --> 01:24:46,872
I was sad.
1425
01:24:46,949 --> 01:24:49,991
You know, this is someone I've
talked to every single day.
1426
01:24:50,068 --> 01:24:53,370
We had a friendship. We did
have an authentic friendship.
1427
01:24:53,446 --> 01:24:56,298
It's been a profound,
profound experience.
1428
01:24:57,635 --> 01:24:59,918
2 1/2 months
right after Bittaker,
1429
01:24:59,995 --> 01:25:02,462
Roy Norris died
of natural causes.
1430
01:25:02,539 --> 01:25:04,172
So many people
called them soul mates,
1431
01:25:04,249 --> 01:25:05,916
and you got to wonder.
1432
01:25:05,918 --> 01:25:07,559
They died
like an old, married couple,
1433
01:25:07,636 --> 01:25:10,145
like they couldn't live
without each other.
1434
01:25:12,549 --> 01:25:14,724
- When I heard Bittaker
and Norris had died,
1435
01:25:14,801 --> 01:25:17,477
I was shocked but happy...
1436
01:25:17,554 --> 01:25:18,854
relieved.
1437
01:25:18,930 --> 01:25:21,565
I'm sorry that it took so long.
1438
01:25:21,641 --> 01:25:25,402
- My mother said, in order
for her to heal herself,
1439
01:25:25,478 --> 01:25:27,487
that she forgave
1440
01:25:27,498 --> 01:25:30,165
Lawrence Bittaker
and Roy Norris.
1441
01:25:31,651 --> 01:25:35,120
Personally, I can't do that.
I cannot forgive them.
1442
01:25:35,197 --> 01:25:38,540
- It's taken me my whole...
1443
01:25:38,617 --> 01:25:42,002
rest of my life
to deal with this...
1444
01:25:42,012 --> 01:25:45,714
that somebody...
1445
01:25:45,790 --> 01:25:48,341
that was kind to me,
1446
01:25:48,418 --> 01:25:50,853
that I trusted...
1447
01:25:54,099 --> 01:25:57,109
Was hurting young girls.
1448
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:01,146
- If anybody deserved
the death penalty,
1449
01:26:01,223 --> 01:26:03,148
it was Lawrence Bittaker.
1450
01:26:03,225 --> 01:26:05,901
I'm glad that he was kept
alive, though,
1451
01:26:05,977 --> 01:26:07,819
because we've learned so much,
I believe,
1452
01:26:07,896 --> 01:26:11,198
about psychopathy
and sadism from him.
1453
01:26:11,274 --> 01:26:15,076
It's a challenge
to try to find that humanity.
1454
01:26:15,153 --> 01:26:18,538
But I would definitely say
that I did see some human
1455
01:26:18,615 --> 01:26:22,542
in him in our time
and in our interviews together.
1456
01:26:22,553 --> 01:26:25,295
I do think
he was developing feelings,
1457
01:26:25,372 --> 01:26:28,381
'cause I don't think it was
just to manipulate me
1458
01:26:28,458 --> 01:26:30,842
or to tell me
what I wanted to hear.
1459
01:26:30,919 --> 01:26:35,731
- I don't believe a man
at that late stage of life
1460
01:26:35,807 --> 01:26:38,066
is gonna turn over a new leaf.
1461
01:26:38,143 --> 01:26:40,435
I believe that he tried
to convince Laura
1462
01:26:40,512 --> 01:26:44,147
that he had empathy because
he liked to have her visit.
1463
01:26:44,224 --> 01:26:46,066
It was companionship.
1464
01:26:46,142 --> 01:26:49,152
- He was actually proud
of being psychopathic.
1465
01:26:49,229 --> 01:26:52,822
He was proud
of not being controlled
1466
01:26:52,833 --> 01:26:54,699
by the kinds of emotions
1467
01:26:54,776 --> 01:26:57,077
that non-psychopathic
people have.
1468
01:26:57,153 --> 01:27:00,872
Do I think he just shredded
his psychopathy
1469
01:27:00,949 --> 01:27:03,917
and became a feeling,
loving human being?
1470
01:27:03,994 --> 01:27:06,294
Based on my experience,
my background, and training,
1471
01:27:06,371 --> 01:27:08,046
I do not.
1472
01:27:08,123 --> 01:27:09,339
- A lot of people
might be like,
1473
01:27:09,350 --> 01:27:10,999
"He doesn't deserve kindness.
1474
01:27:11,075 --> 01:27:13,677
He doesn't deserve empathy
from anybody," you know.
1475
01:27:13,753 --> 01:27:17,264
And that's fine for people
to have that perception.
1476
01:27:17,340 --> 01:27:20,183
I just know that
I'm gonna live my life
1477
01:27:20,260 --> 01:27:22,269
with empathy and compassion
for everyone,
1478
01:27:22,279 --> 01:27:25,948
and I'm gonna have no regrets
at the end of my life.
106415
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