Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:13,789 --> 00:00:15,630
- One night my phone rang.
2
00:00:15,641 --> 00:00:18,300
- You have a prepaid call
from an inmate
3
00:00:18,376 --> 00:00:20,343
at the California
State Prison,
4
00:00:20,420 --> 00:00:22,146
San Quentin, California.
5
00:00:29,846 --> 00:00:32,197
- Bittaker had a series
of heart attacks.
6
00:00:38,647 --> 00:00:40,739
- Teenagers brutally attacked.
7
00:00:40,816 --> 00:00:42,657
Roy Norris
and Lawrence Bittaker...
8
00:00:42,734 --> 00:00:45,202
- Raping and murdering
five teenage girls.
9
00:00:45,278 --> 00:00:46,995
- The evil
that these guys caused--
10
00:00:47,072 --> 00:00:50,290
it really captured the fear
of the city of Los Angeles.
11
00:00:50,301 --> 00:00:52,084
- Just a lot more careful
about where I go.
12
00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:54,002
- I'm afraid to be walking
down the street.
13
00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:56,096
- Lawrence Bittaker
and his partner, Roy Norris,
14
00:00:56,173 --> 00:00:57,773
were known
as the Toolbox Killers.
15
00:00:57,775 --> 00:00:59,925
- Bittaker was
the most evil man
16
00:01:00,001 --> 00:01:01,968
because of that toolbox.
17
00:01:01,979 --> 00:01:04,846
- Pliers, vise grips,
18
00:01:04,857 --> 00:01:06,973
ice picks.
19
00:01:07,050 --> 00:01:10,069
- I thought Roy Norris
was very strange.
20
00:01:10,145 --> 00:01:12,145
- I think he hated women.
21
00:01:12,222 --> 00:01:14,356
- He creeped me out.
22
00:01:14,432 --> 00:01:16,233
- I interviewed
Lawrence Bittaker,
23
00:01:16,309 --> 00:01:18,051
the most sadistic
serial killer
24
00:01:18,128 --> 00:01:21,305
on San Quentin's death row,
for over five years.
25
00:01:25,110 --> 00:01:27,035
He used to say to me, "If
I just had one good parent,
26
00:01:27,112 --> 00:01:28,995
I wouldn't
have become this monster."
27
00:01:29,072 --> 00:01:32,541
- The police followed Norris,
and, boy, did they find a lot.
28
00:01:32,617 --> 00:01:34,376
- Hundreds of pictures
of young girls
29
00:01:34,452 --> 00:01:36,211
were found
in their possession.
30
00:01:36,288 --> 00:01:38,213
- Everyone one of these
photographs
31
00:01:38,290 --> 00:01:39,923
represents a potential victim.
32
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,051
- I thought, "He's gonna
kill me in the courtroom."
33
00:01:43,062 --> 00:01:47,272
- Oh, I thought about killing
Lawrence Bittaker at the trial.
34
00:01:47,349 --> 00:01:50,058
I would dream that I had a gun.
35
00:01:50,135 --> 00:01:53,728
- He was sexually aroused by
their screams and their cries.
36
00:01:53,805 --> 00:01:56,273
- Bittaker finds out
that she is a virgin.
37
00:01:56,349 --> 00:01:59,943
He wants to audio-record
the rape of a virgin.
38
00:02:00,020 --> 00:02:02,246
- They begin to play the tape.
39
00:02:08,403 --> 00:02:11,755
- The courtroom was stunned.
40
00:02:25,295 --> 00:02:32,109
¶ ¶
41
00:02:42,896 --> 00:02:44,237
- I first came
42
00:02:44,314 --> 00:02:46,081
across Lawrence Bittaker
and Roy Norris,
43
00:02:46,158 --> 00:02:47,541
the Toolbox Killers--
44
00:02:47,618 --> 00:02:51,453
it was
in a criminology textbook.
45
00:02:51,529 --> 00:02:54,039
I remember it like
it was yesterday.
46
00:02:54,049 --> 00:02:59,002
And I read about what they did
with the van...
47
00:02:59,079 --> 00:03:01,463
with the girls,
48
00:03:01,539 --> 00:03:04,007
with the ice pick
through the ears,
49
00:03:04,084 --> 00:03:06,885
and the torture for days.
50
00:03:06,896 --> 00:03:10,555
And I just remember,
I dropped the book
51
00:03:10,632 --> 00:03:13,808
'cause I was so floored
by the level of sadism.
52
00:03:13,885 --> 00:03:17,604
¶ ¶
53
00:03:17,681 --> 00:03:21,566
I always wondered what it took
to get to that level of sadism,
54
00:03:21,643 --> 00:03:24,653
how their progression
from their childhood
55
00:03:24,729 --> 00:03:29,491
to committing such violent,
heinous acts transpired.
56
00:03:29,567 --> 00:03:32,211
That was something
I really wanted to explore.
57
00:03:32,287 --> 00:03:34,412
I majored
in forensic psychology.
58
00:03:34,489 --> 00:03:36,498
I had
this incredible professor.
59
00:03:36,574 --> 00:03:39,051
He said, "If you start doing
your own study,
60
00:03:39,127 --> 00:03:40,669
"this will give you a leg up
61
00:03:40,745 --> 00:03:43,213
when you go
for higher education."
62
00:03:43,290 --> 00:03:46,132
I developed this questionnaire
that I sent out to--
63
00:03:46,209 --> 00:03:49,803
I think it was, like,
80 different serial killers.
64
00:03:49,879 --> 00:03:52,555
My only goal was to create
a set of questions
65
00:03:52,632 --> 00:03:54,933
that they can't manipulate
so we can catch
66
00:03:55,010 --> 00:03:57,394
these violent patterns
and behaviors early on,
67
00:03:57,470 --> 00:04:01,189
before these other offenders
go on to do a life of crime,
68
00:04:01,266 --> 00:04:03,858
like Lawrence Bittaker.
69
00:04:03,869 --> 00:04:06,161
I didn't even think I was gonna
get a response back.
70
00:04:06,238 --> 00:04:08,738
And I was like, "They're not
gonna help me with a study,"
71
00:04:08,749 --> 00:04:10,198
you know.
72
00:04:10,275 --> 00:04:12,742
I ended up getting
a crazy amount of responses,
73
00:04:12,753 --> 00:04:13,994
and I was shocked.
74
00:04:14,070 --> 00:04:16,880
But when I first
reached out to Bittaker,
75
00:04:16,957 --> 00:04:18,707
he wrote me back saying
he didn't want to talk to me,
76
00:04:18,783 --> 00:04:20,041
he didn't want
to do the survey.
77
00:04:20,118 --> 00:04:22,127
He's in his late 70s
at this point,
78
00:04:22,203 --> 00:04:25,005
and he didn't want to talk
about the crimes.
79
00:04:25,081 --> 00:04:27,716
So many journalists tried
to get him to do interviews
80
00:04:27,792 --> 00:04:31,395
over the years,
but he just denied everybody.
81
00:04:31,471 --> 00:04:33,188
I had already collected
so much data
82
00:04:33,265 --> 00:04:35,140
from the other inmates.
83
00:04:35,216 --> 00:04:36,525
Why am I bothering with one
84
00:04:36,601 --> 00:04:38,768
that is so challenging
to deal with?
85
00:04:38,779 --> 00:04:41,479
But he was the most
sadistic serial killer
86
00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:43,857
in American history,
the worst of the worst,
87
00:04:43,933 --> 00:04:45,701
and I wanted to try
to find out
88
00:04:45,777 --> 00:04:47,694
if he was hiding something
for all these years.
89
00:04:47,705 --> 00:04:48,903
I didn't take no for an answer,
90
00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:50,488
and I just kept writing
and writing
91
00:04:50,565 --> 00:04:52,741
for years and years and years.
92
00:04:52,817 --> 00:04:56,661
One day, he finally agreed
to talk to me.
93
00:04:56,738 --> 00:04:58,830
- This call is being recorded.
94
00:04:58,907 --> 00:05:00,707
If you do not wish
to be recorded,
95
00:05:00,784 --> 00:05:03,260
please disconnect
at this time.
96
00:05:16,841 --> 00:05:20,477
- Bittaker was really tricky
to warm up to
97
00:05:20,553 --> 00:05:21,737
and build the trust
and rapport.
98
00:05:21,813 --> 00:05:23,071
It really took a lot of time.
99
00:05:23,148 --> 00:05:24,573
Early on in our relationship,
100
00:05:24,649 --> 00:05:28,318
we used to try to have just,
like, normal conversations,
101
00:05:28,329 --> 00:05:29,995
and it was like
he just couldn't do it.
102
00:05:40,665 --> 00:05:44,542
- As an FBI agent,
I worked in the FBI's BAU,
103
00:05:44,619 --> 00:05:47,629
commonly known
as the Behavior Analysis Unit,
104
00:05:47,705 --> 00:05:51,007
and in that unit,
I was involved
105
00:05:51,084 --> 00:05:54,427
in working a number
of very violent crimes,
106
00:05:54,504 --> 00:05:57,806
most specifically
serial murder cases.
107
00:05:57,882 --> 00:06:01,142
When I first met Larry,
he was clearly playing
108
00:06:01,219 --> 00:06:02,727
a cat-and-mouse game with me.
109
00:06:02,804 --> 00:06:04,613
Didn't admit to anything.
110
00:06:04,689 --> 00:06:06,356
Said he hadn't done
anything wrong.
111
00:06:06,433 --> 00:06:08,817
He didn't give up very much.
112
00:06:08,893 --> 00:06:13,071
- Bittaker, he doesn't
see people as individuals.
113
00:06:13,148 --> 00:06:18,284
He sees them as objects
to be used and to toss away.
114
00:06:18,361 --> 00:06:19,878
I was a special trial deputy
115
00:06:19,955 --> 00:06:23,039
handling some of the most
gruesome murder cases
116
00:06:23,050 --> 00:06:24,582
in L.A. County,
117
00:06:24,659 --> 00:06:28,044
including Charles Manson
and his family members.
118
00:06:28,121 --> 00:06:30,547
I always felt
that Lawrence Bittaker
119
00:06:30,623 --> 00:06:32,257
was the worst,
120
00:06:32,267 --> 00:06:36,636
even worse than Manson,
because of the torture.
121
00:06:36,713 --> 00:06:38,763
- He always said
he wanted to be
122
00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,641
bigger than Charlie Manson.
123
00:06:41,718 --> 00:06:43,017
My name is Dennis McCarthy.
124
00:06:43,094 --> 00:06:45,320
I was a reporter
at the South Bay "Daily Breeze"
125
00:06:45,397 --> 00:06:47,121
in 1981,
126
00:06:47,123 --> 00:06:49,482
and I covered the murder trial
of Lawrence Bittaker,
127
00:06:49,559 --> 00:06:50,900
the Toolbox Killer.
128
00:06:52,979 --> 00:06:57,824
Larry was such a fascinating
study in evil.
129
00:06:57,901 --> 00:07:00,160
Basically, Bittaker's defense
was, "I didn't do it.
130
00:07:00,236 --> 00:07:02,203
It was the other guy."
Right? "It was Norris."
131
00:07:04,365 --> 00:07:07,250
- Bittaker and Norris
met and spoke in prison.
132
00:07:07,327 --> 00:07:10,545
Their sharing
of violent sexual fantasies
133
00:07:10,622 --> 00:07:13,339
really cemented
their relationship.
134
00:07:13,416 --> 00:07:15,717
- You had violent Bittaker
135
00:07:15,793 --> 00:07:18,386
and rapist Norris
getting together.
136
00:07:18,463 --> 00:07:20,638
Bittaker was the lead.
137
00:07:20,715 --> 00:07:23,266
Norris was the follower.
138
00:07:23,343 --> 00:07:27,729
¶ ¶
139
00:07:27,805 --> 00:07:30,106
- Lawrence Bittaker
was a near-genius.
140
00:07:30,183 --> 00:07:31,733
He has a 138 IQ.
141
00:07:31,809 --> 00:07:33,693
When you're working
with a psychopath,
142
00:07:33,770 --> 00:07:35,695
if you go in
and you're pretending
143
00:07:35,772 --> 00:07:37,405
to be something you're not,
they can tell.
144
00:07:37,482 --> 00:07:38,707
These guys are smart.
145
00:07:38,783 --> 00:07:40,241
And if you're gonna
play games with them,
146
00:07:40,318 --> 00:07:42,535
they're gonna
play games with you.
147
00:07:42,612 --> 00:07:44,454
So I go in nonjudgmental.
148
00:07:44,465 --> 00:07:46,873
I build a real, actual,
149
00:07:46,950 --> 00:07:48,791
authentic relationship
with them,
150
00:07:48,868 --> 00:07:50,585
and I definitely open up
about myself
151
00:07:50,662 --> 00:07:52,587
and my own personal life.
152
00:07:52,664 --> 00:07:55,089
Anytime you're working
with offenders
153
00:07:55,166 --> 00:07:56,925
who have
antisocial personality,
154
00:07:57,001 --> 00:07:58,968
there's always gonna be a risk.
155
00:07:59,045 --> 00:08:01,596
But once Lawrence Bittaker
and I finally felt that trust
156
00:08:01,673 --> 00:08:03,973
and that rapport,
he started to reveal stuff
157
00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:06,109
that he had never told
anybody else about this case.
158
00:08:27,031 --> 00:08:30,124
- I guess it was a Sunday.
159
00:08:30,135 --> 00:08:36,339
¶ ¶
160
00:08:36,416 --> 00:08:39,759
- Bittaker and Norris had been
driving all day for 15 hours
161
00:08:39,770 --> 00:08:41,135
just smoking weed
162
00:08:41,212 --> 00:08:42,971
and photographing
unsuspecting girls,
163
00:08:43,047 --> 00:08:46,391
when they spotted
Cindy Schaefer.
164
00:08:46,467 --> 00:08:48,851
She was dropped off
at a church meeting
165
00:08:48,928 --> 00:08:50,478
in Redondo Beach,
166
00:08:50,555 --> 00:08:52,313
and she had left early,
167
00:08:52,390 --> 00:08:54,315
and she was walking back
to her grandparents' place,
168
00:08:54,392 --> 00:08:57,035
where she was staying,
and they start to trail her.
169
00:09:50,490 --> 00:09:52,882
- The police had no leads.
170
00:09:56,921 --> 00:09:58,546
They had a big, bloody fight.
171
00:09:58,623 --> 00:10:02,601
- She is punching him
and just fighting for her life.
172
00:10:07,382 --> 00:10:11,234
¶ ¶
173
00:10:17,475 --> 00:10:22,287
¶ ¶
174
00:10:32,824 --> 00:10:35,291
¶ ¶
175
00:10:35,368 --> 00:10:38,920
- Cindy Schaefer was
a very bright young woman.
176
00:10:38,930 --> 00:10:40,705
She was 16 years old.
177
00:10:40,707 --> 00:10:43,758
- Cindy was, from all accounts
of everybody who knew her,
178
00:10:43,835 --> 00:10:45,560
just the sweetest
and nicest girl
179
00:10:45,637 --> 00:10:46,886
you could have ever imagined.
180
00:10:46,963 --> 00:10:50,598
- She tutored in Spanish,
algebra,
181
00:10:50,675 --> 00:10:52,809
and geometry in high school
182
00:10:52,885 --> 00:10:56,187
and just had so many friends.
183
00:10:56,264 --> 00:10:57,922
- She wanted to go to college.
184
00:10:57,999 --> 00:11:00,075
She wanted to study language
and teach foreign language,
185
00:11:00,151 --> 00:11:01,701
just like her mother.
186
00:11:37,823 --> 00:11:39,897
¶ ¶
187
00:11:39,974 --> 00:11:41,774
- When Bittaker would talk
188
00:11:41,851 --> 00:11:44,819
about how the girl more
or less went along with it
189
00:11:44,830 --> 00:11:46,754
once she was inside the van,
190
00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:49,532
as effort on his part
to minimize his involvement,
191
00:11:49,609 --> 00:11:52,076
to minimize how serious
these crimes were,
192
00:11:52,153 --> 00:11:53,953
he's trying to manage
the impression
193
00:11:53,964 --> 00:11:55,922
that you have of him.
194
00:12:04,332 --> 00:12:06,799
- Bittaker,
when he was a teenager,
195
00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:11,554
had been placed in a camp
in the San Gabriel Mountains,
196
00:12:11,631 --> 00:12:14,849
and he thought that
that would be a good place
197
00:12:14,926 --> 00:12:17,101
for them
to take their victims,
198
00:12:17,178 --> 00:12:21,156
because nobody
would hear them scream.
199
00:12:53,139 --> 00:12:56,015
- Cindy asked
if they were gonna kill her.
200
00:12:56,092 --> 00:12:59,644
She said, "I just want you
to let me pray
201
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,145
if you're gonna kill me."
202
00:13:01,222 --> 00:13:03,606
- Bittaker and Norris
laughed at her,
203
00:13:03,683 --> 00:13:06,150
and Bittaker turned to her,
and he said,
204
00:13:06,227 --> 00:13:08,653
"God isn't here, only devils."
205
00:13:08,729 --> 00:13:10,997
¶ ¶
206
00:13:50,813 --> 00:13:53,373
¶ ¶
207
00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:00,913
- Norris saw that Cindy
was crying,
208
00:14:00,990 --> 00:14:04,542
and he just couldn't do it
anymore, so he let go,
209
00:14:04,619 --> 00:14:09,046
and he went over to the side
of the road and threw up.
210
00:14:09,123 --> 00:14:12,425
Bittaker went to the back
of his van
211
00:14:12,501 --> 00:14:15,928
and sectioned
a wire coat hanger,
212
00:14:16,005 --> 00:14:19,473
and told Norris to wrap it
around her neck and choke her.
213
00:14:19,484 --> 00:14:21,609
And Norris tried
to do that manually,
214
00:14:21,686 --> 00:14:23,987
but he couldn't get it
tight enough.
215
00:14:24,063 --> 00:14:27,148
So Bittaker
got a pair of vise grips
216
00:14:27,158 --> 00:14:28,691
from the back of the van
217
00:14:28,768 --> 00:14:33,446
and tightened it enough
so that it finally killed her.
218
00:14:33,522 --> 00:14:38,418
¶ ¶
219
00:15:39,463 --> 00:15:41,097
- There were no leads
220
00:15:41,173 --> 00:15:43,474
to explain
Cindy's disappearance.
221
00:15:43,551 --> 00:15:46,310
They even found a girl
in Tijuana
222
00:15:46,387 --> 00:15:47,962
that they thought
might be her,
223
00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:51,315
so they went all the way down
to Tijuana and saw the girl,
224
00:15:51,392 --> 00:15:53,201
and, of course,
it wasn't Cindy.
225
00:15:53,277 --> 00:15:56,237
Nobody had really any idea.
226
00:15:56,313 --> 00:15:58,406
They, of course,
didn't realize
227
00:15:58,482 --> 00:16:00,074
that she was the first victim
228
00:16:00,151 --> 00:16:03,336
of the infamous
Toolbox Killers.
229
00:16:06,157 --> 00:16:09,208
- We know that Larry Bittaker
was a criminal sexual sadist.
230
00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:13,337
He's an individual
who is sexually aroused
231
00:16:13,414 --> 00:16:17,008
by the infliction
of physical or emotional pain
232
00:16:17,084 --> 00:16:20,094
on his non-consenting partners.
233
00:16:20,171 --> 00:16:23,264
He wants the victim
to scream, to cry.
234
00:16:23,274 --> 00:16:25,891
He wants to see the fear
in their eyes.
235
00:16:25,968 --> 00:16:29,186
We know this behavior
would have started
236
00:16:29,263 --> 00:16:31,239
at a very, very early age.
237
00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:53,127
¶ ¶
238
00:16:53,204 --> 00:16:54,545
- Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker
239
00:16:54,622 --> 00:16:58,007
was born
to a teen mother in 1940.
240
00:16:58,084 --> 00:17:00,760
Bittaker's father was violent,
and his mother was a drinker.
241
00:17:00,836 --> 00:17:03,354
She would go and leave him and
his little brother home alone
242
00:17:03,431 --> 00:17:04,989
while she went out
and partied.
243
00:17:05,065 --> 00:17:07,725
Soon, the family convinced her
to give up the two boys.
244
00:17:07,802 --> 00:17:10,144
They were adopted
by different aunts and uncles
245
00:17:10,155 --> 00:17:11,395
within the family.
246
00:17:11,472 --> 00:17:13,230
- At some point,
something happened to him
247
00:17:13,307 --> 00:17:15,441
when he was a little boy.
248
00:17:15,518 --> 00:17:17,693
Sexually sadistic behaviors
are learned
249
00:17:17,704 --> 00:17:20,571
when their sexual identity
is being formed.
250
00:17:20,648 --> 00:17:23,916
So, whether Larry
had been himself the victim
251
00:17:23,993 --> 00:17:25,576
of some kind of sexual abuse,
252
00:17:25,653 --> 00:17:28,204
that more than likely shaped
his development
253
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,997
as a sexual sadist.
254
00:17:30,074 --> 00:17:33,793
- Bittaker was raised
by an aunt and uncle.
255
00:17:33,869 --> 00:17:36,420
They provided what would
have been a good life
256
00:17:36,497 --> 00:17:37,755
for a normal person,
257
00:17:37,832 --> 00:17:40,224
but Bittaker was not
a normal person.
258
00:17:57,518 --> 00:17:58,993
- Even in his 70s,
259
00:17:59,070 --> 00:18:01,487
he would talk about the mother
who gave him up.
260
00:18:01,564 --> 00:18:03,206
That was a big part
of where his rage came from.
261
00:18:03,282 --> 00:18:06,334
He actually had a plan
to go find her and kill her.
262
00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:08,285
He always felt like,
if she had kept him,
263
00:18:08,362 --> 00:18:10,213
he would have never become
a monster.
264
00:18:10,289 --> 00:18:12,381
¶ ¶
265
00:18:12,458 --> 00:18:14,458
He had amazing grades.
He was very smart.
266
00:18:14,535 --> 00:18:17,336
He was tested early
with a 138 IQ.
267
00:18:17,413 --> 00:18:20,306
But he was unmotivated
and unchallenged.
268
00:18:20,383 --> 00:18:21,632
He loved to play with fire,
269
00:18:21,709 --> 00:18:23,968
and he did burn down
a couple sheds.
270
00:18:24,044 --> 00:18:25,636
He was doing it to try to get
271
00:18:25,713 --> 00:18:28,481
his adoptive parents',
you know, attention.
272
00:18:37,391 --> 00:18:39,775
- And she took a cigarette
273
00:18:39,852 --> 00:18:42,361
and just put it
all over his body,
274
00:18:42,438 --> 00:18:44,497
in a way that seemed
like torture.
275
00:18:55,009 --> 00:18:59,178
- Larry began to manifest his
interest in torturing things
276
00:18:59,255 --> 00:19:01,755
by the time he was adolescent.
277
00:19:01,766 --> 00:19:04,175
One time he told me
that he was upset.
278
00:19:04,185 --> 00:19:08,137
They had rabbits, and he went
outside with a pair of pliers,
279
00:19:08,214 --> 00:19:12,525
and he removed the teeth of one
of the rabbits with the pliers.
280
00:19:25,648 --> 00:19:27,072
- As a teenager, he would
wander around the streets
281
00:19:27,149 --> 00:19:28,365
at night.
282
00:19:28,442 --> 00:19:29,533
But then it started
to escalate,
283
00:19:29,610 --> 00:19:31,160
when he would move
furniture around
284
00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:33,662
so people knew that someone
had been in their house,
285
00:19:33,739 --> 00:19:36,540
just so people feel unsafe
in their own homes.
286
00:19:36,617 --> 00:19:38,709
So you're seeing
the early signs of sadism.
287
00:19:38,786 --> 00:19:41,629
- A serial sexual killer--
they're born predators.
288
00:19:41,705 --> 00:19:43,431
They hunt human beings.
289
00:19:43,507 --> 00:19:45,716
And so his practice--
290
00:19:45,793 --> 00:19:47,885
following people,
watching people,
291
00:19:47,962 --> 00:19:50,596
walking around his
neighborhood late at night--
292
00:19:50,673 --> 00:19:52,681
is a result
of his psychopathy,
293
00:19:52,758 --> 00:19:55,184
which has a genetic link
to it.
294
00:19:55,261 --> 00:19:59,063
When sexuality and violence
becomes intertwined,
295
00:19:59,139 --> 00:20:02,691
now you have these compulsion
and these urges to go out
296
00:20:02,768 --> 00:20:04,827
and kidnap people
and torture them,
297
00:20:04,904 --> 00:20:07,705
that's a very,
very deadly combination.
298
00:20:07,782 --> 00:20:13,419
¶ ¶
299
00:20:20,035 --> 00:20:22,294
¶ ¶
300
00:20:22,371 --> 00:20:24,338
- Lawrence Bittaker
was very society awkward.
301
00:20:24,415 --> 00:20:27,091
He reports that he didn't have
any friends growing up,
302
00:20:27,167 --> 00:20:29,843
but he was able to get
a girlfriend in high school.
303
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,137
Mary Anne was
a Catholic school girl--
304
00:20:32,214 --> 00:20:33,739
Blonde hair, big blue eyes.
305
00:20:33,741 --> 00:20:36,684
If you look at the victims,
they look very similar.
306
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:38,102
She also wore a cross,
307
00:20:38,178 --> 00:20:39,520
and he actually made
some of the victims
308
00:20:39,596 --> 00:20:41,697
actually put on a cross
during his crimes.
309
00:21:07,466 --> 00:21:09,174
Bittaker told me
that he had recorded
310
00:21:09,251 --> 00:21:11,385
a make-out session
with this girlfriend.
311
00:21:11,462 --> 00:21:12,961
I was really blown away,
312
00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:15,398
'cause I think this is where
the paraphilic urges started.
313
00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:27,067
What's chilling
is she does remember
314
00:21:27,078 --> 00:21:29,320
him taking her
up to San Gabriel Mountains,
315
00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:32,072
and they would go
and hang out and hike.
316
00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:33,907
I've always wondered
if that's why he took
317
00:21:33,984 --> 00:21:36,410
the victims there--is because
of this first girlfriend,
318
00:21:36,421 --> 00:21:37,911
his first rejection.
319
00:21:37,922 --> 00:21:41,882
¶ ¶
320
00:22:02,739 --> 00:22:04,688
- Bittaker had what's known
321
00:22:04,765 --> 00:22:08,275
as a polymorphous
perverse personality.
322
00:22:08,352 --> 00:22:10,569
That means that he was able
323
00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:13,414
to commit any crime
on the books
324
00:22:13,491 --> 00:22:15,240
just for his own pleasure.
325
00:22:15,317 --> 00:22:18,994
- His psychopathy was not
something that he worried about
326
00:22:19,071 --> 00:22:22,289
or he fretted about
or he was concerned about.
327
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:24,458
- When Lawrence Bittaker
was in juvie,
328
00:22:24,535 --> 00:22:26,210
they did a ton of evaluations,
329
00:22:26,286 --> 00:22:28,128
and they're seeing
that he is violent
330
00:22:28,205 --> 00:22:30,214
with anger issues
and deeply disturbed.
331
00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:32,558
There were warning signs
from the beginning.
332
00:22:36,922 --> 00:22:41,767
- In 1974, Bittaker was living
in the Hollywood area.
333
00:22:41,844 --> 00:22:44,103
He went into a Ralph's market,
334
00:22:44,179 --> 00:22:47,656
and he stole
a couple of steaks.
335
00:23:02,281 --> 00:23:04,906
- It was a miracle
this guy survived.
336
00:23:08,495 --> 00:23:10,045
By him stabbing this clerk,
337
00:23:10,122 --> 00:23:11,839
it really changed the lives
of everybody--
338
00:23:11,915 --> 00:23:13,674
this fateful moment
that sent him
339
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:17,010
to California Men's Colony,
CMC East.
340
00:23:17,087 --> 00:23:18,887
This is where
Lawrence Bittaker
341
00:23:18,964 --> 00:23:21,348
meets Roy Norris.
342
00:23:24,761 --> 00:23:27,271
- Roy Norris was a rapist.
343
00:23:27,347 --> 00:23:29,148
He was a serial rapist.
344
00:23:29,158 --> 00:23:30,649
Who was worse?
345
00:23:30,726 --> 00:23:32,034
I don't think I could even say,
346
00:23:32,111 --> 00:23:34,445
'cause when they partnered up,
they were both horrible.
347
00:23:34,521 --> 00:23:36,905
- I think he hated women.
348
00:23:36,982 --> 00:23:39,166
- He was the one who typically
grabbed the grabs
349
00:23:39,243 --> 00:23:40,968
and subdued them.
350
00:23:40,970 --> 00:23:43,495
He was a much bigger guy.
He was over 200 pounds.
351
00:23:43,572 --> 00:23:45,038
- He was a big oaf.
352
00:23:45,049 --> 00:23:47,458
His IQ--I have no idea
what it was,
353
00:23:47,534 --> 00:23:50,794
but it couldn't be anywhere
near Bittaker's IQ.
354
00:23:50,805 --> 00:23:54,965
- He wasn't a liar and an actor
like Larry was.
355
00:23:55,042 --> 00:23:56,800
Like, Larry pulled it off.
356
00:23:56,811 --> 00:24:00,721
Norris--
you felt uncomfortable.
357
00:24:00,797 --> 00:24:02,931
- So he was definitely
the muscle of the two,
358
00:24:03,008 --> 00:24:05,109
and Bittaker was the brains.
359
00:24:07,012 --> 00:24:09,396
- I prosecuted Roy Norris
360
00:24:09,473 --> 00:24:12,274
for rape in 1975.
361
00:24:12,351 --> 00:24:15,110
He was sentenced
from three years to life
362
00:24:15,187 --> 00:24:17,362
in the
California Men's Colony,
363
00:24:17,439 --> 00:24:19,531
East Facility,
in San Luis Obispo,
364
00:24:19,608 --> 00:24:22,784
where he met Lawrence Bittaker,
who was already there.
365
00:24:22,861 --> 00:24:25,963
¶ ¶
366
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,164
- How they met, actually,
367
00:24:27,241 --> 00:24:30,292
is they would
make jewelry together.
368
00:24:30,369 --> 00:24:34,263
¶ ¶
369
00:24:52,015 --> 00:24:54,858
And they did tell an inmate
named Richard Shoopman,
370
00:24:54,935 --> 00:24:57,069
who was in there for killing
a young college girl.
371
00:25:00,416 --> 00:25:03,242
- Shoopman would write up
their fantasies
372
00:25:03,252 --> 00:25:05,577
and sell them
to other prisoners.
373
00:25:05,654 --> 00:25:07,713
- They talked about getting
a cabin in the woods.
374
00:25:07,790 --> 00:25:09,673
They talked
about getting a trailer.
375
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:10,958
They even talked about a cave.
376
00:25:11,034 --> 00:25:13,001
- And they would fantasize
377
00:25:13,078 --> 00:25:16,630
about what they were gonna do
when they got out.
378
00:25:16,707 --> 00:25:20,968
- It was Roy who also told me
that part of their fantasies,
379
00:25:21,044 --> 00:25:23,971
as they plotted out
what they were gonna do,
380
00:25:24,047 --> 00:25:26,848
was that they were going
to kidnap a girl
381
00:25:26,925 --> 00:25:28,308
for every teen year.
382
00:25:28,385 --> 00:25:30,811
Once they got out,
they would kidnap 13-year-old,
383
00:25:30,887 --> 00:25:32,896
14-year-old, 15-year-old...
384
00:25:32,973 --> 00:25:35,324
It was the perfect storm
when they hooked up.
385
00:25:35,401 --> 00:25:37,785
¶ ¶
386
00:25:37,861 --> 00:25:39,611
- Back in the '70s,
387
00:25:39,688 --> 00:25:42,155
rape wasn't treated
as seriously as it is nowadays.
388
00:25:42,166 --> 00:25:45,534
Another factor--both of them
have antisocial personality,
389
00:25:45,611 --> 00:25:46,818
so they are conning
390
00:25:46,896 --> 00:25:48,787
the, you know, psychologist
constantly
391
00:25:48,864 --> 00:25:50,664
and telling him, you know,
they're fine,
392
00:25:50,666 --> 00:25:53,217
they're rehabilitated, they
can go back out into society.
393
00:25:55,078 --> 00:25:57,087
So Bittaker got
out of jail first,
394
00:25:57,164 --> 00:25:59,181
and he went to Los Angeles.
395
00:25:59,258 --> 00:26:02,551
And then he got a job as
a skilled machinist in Burbank.
396
00:26:02,628 --> 00:26:07,014
Roy Norris gets out a couple
months right after Bittaker.
397
00:26:07,090 --> 00:26:08,724
He actually wanted Norris
to quit his job
398
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,025
to build a compound,
399
00:26:10,102 --> 00:26:12,227
and he was gonna financially
take care of him.
400
00:26:12,304 --> 00:26:14,980
There was a very, like,
teacher-student vibe to them.
401
00:26:15,057 --> 00:26:17,816
And I noticed, even with
my relationship with Bittaker,
402
00:26:17,893 --> 00:26:19,276
it was a very student-teacher.
403
00:26:19,353 --> 00:26:21,328
It was like, he's Hannibal,
I'm Clarice.
404
00:26:21,405 --> 00:26:23,405
He loved, like, that role
and that dynamic,
405
00:26:23,482 --> 00:26:25,616
and loved that he was
teaching me
406
00:26:25,692 --> 00:26:27,359
about, you know,
the psychopathy.
407
00:26:27,361 --> 00:26:31,121
And I think that was the same
dynamic with him and Norris.
408
00:26:31,198 --> 00:26:34,207
- They talked about Bittaker
wanting a van
409
00:26:34,284 --> 00:26:37,720
and specifically a van
with a sliding door,
410
00:26:37,796 --> 00:26:41,473
'cause that way they could
get victims in the van quicker.
411
00:26:55,314 --> 00:26:58,899
- Bittaker buys, you know,
the infamous silver van,
412
00:26:58,975 --> 00:27:01,410
which they named Murder Mack.
413
00:27:07,984 --> 00:27:10,535
They start personalizing
this van.
414
00:27:10,612 --> 00:27:12,412
- They had police scanners.
415
00:27:12,489 --> 00:27:15,883
He put a fold-down bed
in the back.
416
00:27:15,959 --> 00:27:17,376
- They put flooring down.
417
00:27:17,386 --> 00:27:19,294
They put a shag
green carpet down.
418
00:27:19,371 --> 00:27:21,546
They put the makeshift bed
with the toolbox--
419
00:27:21,623 --> 00:27:23,632
the infamous toolbox--
underneath the bed
420
00:27:23,709 --> 00:27:25,092
to use for their torture.
421
00:27:25,168 --> 00:27:26,893
They also had
the walkie-talkies,
422
00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:28,428
which they used to communicate
back and forth.
423
00:27:28,505 --> 00:27:32,149
- And then they started
going to The Strand
424
00:27:32,226 --> 00:27:33,558
in the South Bay area,
425
00:27:33,635 --> 00:27:36,103
taking photographs
of young teenage girls
426
00:27:36,179 --> 00:27:40,407
in their skimpy bikinis
and roller skating.
427
00:27:42,853 --> 00:27:45,612
- They did a trip up
to San Gabriel Mountains.
428
00:27:45,689 --> 00:27:47,280
Bittaker had wanted
to show Norris
429
00:27:47,357 --> 00:27:48,907
all these, like,
remote fire roads
430
00:27:48,984 --> 00:27:50,450
that they could use.
431
00:27:50,527 --> 00:27:52,911
- He thought that
that would be a good place
432
00:27:52,988 --> 00:27:55,288
for them
to take their victims,
433
00:27:55,365 --> 00:27:57,833
because nobody
would hear them scream,
434
00:27:57,909 --> 00:28:00,127
and they could dump the bodies
435
00:28:00,203 --> 00:28:02,680
down the very steep ravines.
436
00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:05,090
- There's a picture of Bittaker
bending down,
437
00:28:05,167 --> 00:28:07,342
breaking off the lock
onto this fire road
438
00:28:07,419 --> 00:28:10,929
so they would have
complete access to this road.
439
00:28:11,006 --> 00:28:13,941
- Bittaker took a photograph
of Norris...
440
00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:19,312
On the fire road,
pointing to the steep ravine.
441
00:28:19,389 --> 00:28:21,440
- Now, these look like
innocent pictures,
442
00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:23,191
but when they were sent
to Shoopman,
443
00:28:23,268 --> 00:28:24,735
they were a message to Shoopman
444
00:28:24,811 --> 00:28:26,653
that, "We are actually going
through with this plan.
445
00:28:26,730 --> 00:28:29,197
We're doing it.
We're bringing victims here."
446
00:28:29,274 --> 00:28:31,658
They have this tricked-out
murder van,
447
00:28:31,735 --> 00:28:33,326
and then they have
the mountains and the woods.
448
00:28:33,403 --> 00:28:36,204
I mean, it's very clear
everything was planned.
449
00:28:36,281 --> 00:28:37,322
And that was Bittaker.
450
00:28:37,399 --> 00:28:39,091
He was a planner.
He was a thinker.
451
00:28:39,168 --> 00:28:41,009
He thought
every scenario through.
452
00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:51,413
¶ ¶
453
00:30:01,741 --> 00:30:03,625
¶ ¶
454
00:30:03,702 --> 00:30:05,752
- Beach towns
down in the South Bay
455
00:30:05,829 --> 00:30:07,504
were considered very safe.
456
00:30:07,581 --> 00:30:09,798
You know, they were a place
where airline pilots
457
00:30:09,875 --> 00:30:11,258
and stews hung out,
458
00:30:11,268 --> 00:30:13,510
because it was close to LAX
459
00:30:13,587 --> 00:30:14,937
and only a couple of feet
460
00:30:15,013 --> 00:30:17,180
from some of the most
beautiful beach area
461
00:30:17,257 --> 00:30:18,932
in all of California.
462
00:30:19,009 --> 00:30:22,310
A lot of young girls,
a lot of muscle builders.
463
00:30:22,387 --> 00:30:23,979
It was a happening place, man.
464
00:30:24,055 --> 00:30:26,606
Everybody was going
down to The Strand,
465
00:30:26,683 --> 00:30:28,191
because that's where
the action was.
466
00:30:28,268 --> 00:30:30,610
Unfortunately,
there was so much action,
467
00:30:30,687 --> 00:30:32,830
that's where Bittaker
and Norris
468
00:30:32,906 --> 00:30:35,866
went to find their victims.
469
00:30:37,611 --> 00:30:39,536
- Hitchhiking was part
of the culture.
470
00:30:39,613 --> 00:30:41,538
I myself had tried it
a couple times.
471
00:30:41,615 --> 00:30:44,040
My girlfriends wanted
to always, you know,
472
00:30:44,117 --> 00:30:46,209
in the summer,
hitchhike to the park
473
00:30:46,286 --> 00:30:48,345
that wasn't very far away.
474
00:30:48,422 --> 00:30:50,213
But I didn't know
my sister was hitchhiking
475
00:30:50,224 --> 00:30:53,049
until right before
she was abducted.
476
00:30:56,054 --> 00:30:58,230
¶ ¶
477
00:31:21,529 --> 00:31:25,916
- Andrea Hall was
an 18-year-old girl from Ohio.
478
00:31:25,992 --> 00:31:27,542
She was spotted
479
00:31:27,619 --> 00:31:29,419
by Lawrence Bittaker
and Roy Norris
480
00:31:29,496 --> 00:31:33,256
only two weeks
after they had killed Cindy.
481
00:31:33,333 --> 00:31:36,760
Andrea had been at the beach
with her sister and her kids.
482
00:31:36,836 --> 00:31:39,721
She had a boyfriend
who lived out in Torrance.
483
00:31:39,798 --> 00:31:42,349
She wasn't too far
from the boyfriend's place.
484
00:31:42,425 --> 00:31:44,818
So, to get there,
she hitchhiked.
485
00:31:51,017 --> 00:31:53,777
- She was hitchhiking down
Pacific Coast Highway.
486
00:31:53,853 --> 00:31:55,862
She got in the car
with somebody else first,
487
00:31:55,939 --> 00:31:58,156
and followed that car,
488
00:31:58,233 --> 00:32:01,076
thinking that that person
may not want to take her
489
00:32:01,152 --> 00:32:03,036
as far as she wanted to go.
490
00:32:03,113 --> 00:32:04,922
- They followed this car
for miles
491
00:32:04,998 --> 00:32:06,748
until he had let her out.
492
00:32:06,825 --> 00:32:08,917
And then she started
hitchhiking again,
493
00:32:08,994 --> 00:32:11,670
'cause she wasn't at
the location she needed to be.
494
00:32:11,746 --> 00:32:14,381
And that's when Norris went
and hid under the bed,
495
00:32:14,457 --> 00:32:17,059
the makeshift bed,
and Bittaker came up,
496
00:32:17,135 --> 00:32:19,636
rolled down the window
and said, "Hey, want a ride?"
497
00:32:19,713 --> 00:32:23,440
- She made it easy
for these two perpetrators.
498
00:32:23,517 --> 00:32:27,227
All they had to do
was pick her up, and they did.
499
00:32:27,237 --> 00:32:30,313
My sister looked in.
She got in.
500
00:32:30,390 --> 00:32:32,649
Lawrence told her
that there was a cooler
501
00:32:32,726 --> 00:32:35,610
in the back with cold drinks.
502
00:32:35,687 --> 00:32:38,571
So she got up
and went back there.
503
00:32:38,582 --> 00:32:40,865
And Roy Norris came up
504
00:32:40,942 --> 00:32:44,327
and started accosting her.
505
00:32:44,404 --> 00:32:49,958
¶ ¶
506
00:32:50,035 --> 00:32:52,669
- She starts fighting,
and she fought like a bull.
507
00:32:52,746 --> 00:32:54,671
And, I mean,
she is punching him
508
00:32:54,748 --> 00:32:57,182
and just fighting
for her life.
509
00:33:07,719 --> 00:33:10,020
He saw that she
was overpowering Norris,
510
00:33:10,096 --> 00:33:11,688
so he slammed on the brakes,
511
00:33:11,765 --> 00:33:13,648
and they both
tumbled backwards.
512
00:33:13,725 --> 00:33:16,693
- They had a big bloody fight,
513
00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:18,996
and Norris finally
got control of her.
514
00:33:19,072 --> 00:33:22,624
¶ ¶
515
00:33:22,701 --> 00:33:24,659
They went to the mountain area
again,
516
00:33:24,736 --> 00:33:26,494
to a place we now know
it's called
517
00:33:26,571 --> 00:33:28,121
the Upper Monroe Truck Trail.
518
00:33:28,198 --> 00:33:29,873
They're fire roads.
519
00:33:29,949 --> 00:33:34,544
Bittaker had a sleeping bag,
a blanket, walkie-talkie,
520
00:33:34,621 --> 00:33:37,139
so he could stay in contact
with Norris,
521
00:33:37,215 --> 00:33:39,007
and a camera.
522
00:33:41,344 --> 00:33:42,802
It was like a Polaroid camera.
523
00:33:42,879 --> 00:33:44,396
It would shoot
the picture out,
524
00:33:44,473 --> 00:33:47,315
so you didn't have to take it
in to a nosy film developer
525
00:33:47,392 --> 00:33:51,528
who would see pictures
of girls in great distress.
526
00:34:10,966 --> 00:34:14,084
- Bittaker had told me in some
of my interviews with him,
527
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,711
he had used, you know,
the pliers on her.
528
00:34:16,788 --> 00:34:18,155
When he took her up
on that hill,
529
00:34:18,231 --> 00:34:21,299
he had her bound,
and he took a camera.
530
00:34:21,310 --> 00:34:23,760
- He took one...
531
00:34:23,837 --> 00:34:26,888
just gut-wrenching photograph
of her.
532
00:34:29,551 --> 00:34:31,768
- He had said,
"I'm going to kill you,"
533
00:34:31,845 --> 00:34:34,312
and snapped a picture
of her face--
534
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:37,273
the look on her face
when he said that.
535
00:34:37,350 --> 00:34:38,950
That is true sadism.
536
00:34:55,076 --> 00:34:59,596
- She was his first attempt
with an ice pick in the ear,
537
00:34:59,673 --> 00:35:03,466
and that idea came
from a movie we saw in prison.
538
00:35:03,543 --> 00:35:05,677
- When you puncture
an eardrum,
539
00:35:05,753 --> 00:35:08,805
it's one of the most severe,
severe types of pain.
540
00:35:08,882 --> 00:35:11,641
You would almost, like,
go deaf instantly
541
00:35:11,718 --> 00:35:14,602
and just hear blood
through your brain.
542
00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:16,688
But it wouldn't kill you
instantly.
543
00:35:16,764 --> 00:35:19,032
It would be
a very slow, painful death.
544
00:35:41,089 --> 00:35:43,339
- But then he manually
strangled her
545
00:35:43,416 --> 00:35:45,767
until she was dead.
546
00:35:45,844 --> 00:35:49,437
- Andrea Hall's body
was never found.
547
00:35:49,514 --> 00:35:51,731
¶ ¶
548
00:35:51,808 --> 00:35:54,985
- A small piece of myself
died every day
549
00:35:55,061 --> 00:35:58,155
for 13 1/2 years.
550
00:35:58,231 --> 00:36:00,190
It was tough.
551
00:36:00,266 --> 00:36:03,735
¶ ¶
552
00:36:03,811 --> 00:36:07,822
- When Andrea went missing,
the police had no leads.
553
00:36:07,899 --> 00:36:10,408
Her mother in Ohio
was beside herself
554
00:36:10,419 --> 00:36:14,621
because she had talked
to Andrea at least once a week.
555
00:36:14,697 --> 00:36:16,789
- So, when I did start digging
into the case
556
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,375
and I saw that Cindy and Andrea
have never been found
557
00:36:19,452 --> 00:36:20,710
in all these years,
558
00:36:20,787 --> 00:36:22,503
something told me
to keep working.
559
00:36:22,580 --> 00:36:24,005
You know,
could this be something
560
00:36:24,082 --> 00:36:26,049
that I could get from him,
some information
561
00:36:26,125 --> 00:36:28,176
to try to get the locations
of the two girls?
562
00:36:28,253 --> 00:36:30,845
When I talked to Andrea's
sister for the first time--
563
00:36:30,922 --> 00:36:34,474
Julie--she just said to me--
564
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:36,893
She was bawling,
and I was bawling,
565
00:36:36,970 --> 00:36:40,396
and she's like,
"We've never given up hope."
566
00:36:40,473 --> 00:36:43,491
And just hearing her say,
567
00:36:43,568 --> 00:36:46,736
you know,
"We've never given up hope"...
568
00:36:46,747 --> 00:36:50,156
yeah, it was a really
emotional conversation...
569
00:36:50,233 --> 00:36:52,617
To have.
570
00:36:52,694 --> 00:36:55,453
- You know, my mother said
to my sister Pamela,
571
00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:58,164
whose son drowned
in the ocean one day--
572
00:36:58,241 --> 00:37:02,335
she said, "At least you had
his body, Pammy,"
573
00:37:02,346 --> 00:37:04,295
because we never had a body.
574
00:37:04,372 --> 00:37:06,673
We never found her.
575
00:37:06,749 --> 00:37:08,466
We've still been looking
for her.
576
00:37:08,477 --> 00:37:10,385
It's almost 43 years.
577
00:37:10,461 --> 00:37:17,484
¶ ¶
578
00:37:24,142 --> 00:37:27,369
¶ ¶
579
00:37:27,445 --> 00:37:29,162
- When Bittaker was about 78,
580
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,164
he starts telling me,
you know,
581
00:37:31,241 --> 00:37:33,491
he's starting to have emotions
he never had before.
582
00:37:33,568 --> 00:37:35,877
He'll watch a commercial
and start crying.
583
00:37:48,416 --> 00:37:49,882
He once said to me--
584
00:37:49,959 --> 00:37:51,509
he goes, "Do you understand
what it feels like
585
00:37:51,586 --> 00:37:54,429
"to actually put an ice pick
through someone's ear
586
00:37:54,505 --> 00:37:56,273
and not feel anything?"
587
00:38:03,681 --> 00:38:05,907
Before, he felt like a void,
588
00:38:05,984 --> 00:38:07,909
and now he's feeling, like,
589
00:38:07,986 --> 00:38:10,403
a flood of emotion
for the first time ever.
590
00:38:10,414 --> 00:38:12,080
He calls it a dam breaking.
591
00:38:26,412 --> 00:38:29,047
He's having a new experience,
a new emotion,
592
00:38:29,123 --> 00:38:31,090
and what he called
and wrote about--
593
00:38:31,167 --> 00:38:33,810
he described
as becoming fully human.
594
00:38:43,971 --> 00:38:46,022
- I find it very hard
to believe that any one
595
00:38:46,099 --> 00:38:48,742
of those psychological
professionals at San Quentin
596
00:38:48,818 --> 00:38:51,077
would have given him
that diagnosis,
597
00:38:51,154 --> 00:38:53,446
that, "Once you were,
but now you're not."
598
00:38:53,523 --> 00:38:55,698
I talked with him
about his lack of empathy,
599
00:38:55,775 --> 00:38:58,951
and I recall one time
he said he would find himself
600
00:38:59,028 --> 00:39:00,995
crying during soap operas.
601
00:39:01,072 --> 00:39:03,581
And I remember it was--
I couldn't control it.
602
00:39:03,658 --> 00:39:05,792
I started laughing and saying,
603
00:39:05,868 --> 00:39:08,294
"You have got to be kidding me.
It's absurd.
604
00:39:08,371 --> 00:39:10,171
You know it's absurd,
and I know it's absurd."
605
00:39:10,248 --> 00:39:12,298
And he starting laughing, too.
606
00:39:12,375 --> 00:39:14,592
When he engages in behavior
with people
607
00:39:14,669 --> 00:39:17,929
where he's coming across
as caring and concerned
608
00:39:18,005 --> 00:39:21,391
or seems to show
a soft side of him,
609
00:39:21,467 --> 00:39:24,477
it's the FBI training in me
that says,
610
00:39:24,488 --> 00:39:27,814
"Be very careful that this
is not just another way
611
00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:30,358
to try to manipulate
the situation."
612
00:39:30,435 --> 00:39:33,361
¶ ¶
613
00:39:33,438 --> 00:39:37,115
- My name's Tracee Whitney,
and in 1979,
614
00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:40,410
I lived at the Scott's Motel
next to Lawrence Bittaker.
615
00:39:40,486 --> 00:39:44,455
I saw him daily
when I was at the hotel.
616
00:39:44,532 --> 00:39:48,251
The Scott's Motel
was a very dingy,
617
00:39:48,327 --> 00:39:50,253
cheap hotel.
618
00:39:50,329 --> 00:39:53,005
Burbank Police knew
that people that lived there
619
00:39:53,016 --> 00:39:54,632
were basically homeless.
620
00:39:54,643 --> 00:39:56,342
I was 18.
621
00:39:56,419 --> 00:39:59,512
A lot of younger people
my age would party
622
00:39:59,589 --> 00:40:01,472
in each other's rooms.
623
00:40:01,549 --> 00:40:03,933
Larry would give us money.
624
00:40:04,010 --> 00:40:07,103
He would give us weed.
He would give us beer.
625
00:40:07,180 --> 00:40:10,398
I think Larry wanted
to be liked.
626
00:40:10,475 --> 00:40:12,358
It was as if Larry loved
627
00:40:12,435 --> 00:40:14,986
having a gang of girls
around him, you know?
628
00:40:14,996 --> 00:40:17,497
Like, it made him somebody.
629
00:40:18,441 --> 00:40:21,033
- Larry chose to live
in a rundown place
630
00:40:21,044 --> 00:40:23,202
over a much more expensive
place that he could afford
631
00:40:23,279 --> 00:40:26,497
because it did give him access
to young girls.
632
00:40:26,574 --> 00:40:28,115
It gave him access to people
633
00:40:28,117 --> 00:40:31,711
that he could manipulate
and dominate and impress.
634
00:40:31,787 --> 00:40:34,797
¶ ¶
635
00:40:34,808 --> 00:40:37,216
- I found out I was pregnant.
636
00:40:37,293 --> 00:40:40,303
I attempted to make
a phone call to my family
637
00:40:40,379 --> 00:40:44,223
to beg them
to allow me to come home
638
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:47,226
and live there while I figured
out what I was gonna do,
639
00:40:47,303 --> 00:40:50,271
and they refused to do it,
and they hung up.
640
00:40:50,348 --> 00:40:53,232
When I turned around,
Larry was standing behind me
641
00:40:53,309 --> 00:40:55,151
and had heard
the conversation,
642
00:40:55,228 --> 00:40:57,028
and I was extremely upset.
643
00:40:57,104 --> 00:40:59,238
And he said,
"If you need something--
644
00:40:59,315 --> 00:41:01,741
"if you need maternity clothes
or a place to sleep,
645
00:41:01,817 --> 00:41:03,376
I'll pay for it."
646
00:41:03,453 --> 00:41:07,830
- Larry had a soft spot
for young pregnant girls,
647
00:41:07,907 --> 00:41:10,341
because he was always
the predator.
648
00:41:10,418 --> 00:41:13,336
- He was very nice to me,
you know,
649
00:41:13,412 --> 00:41:17,465
and I get pretty upset
when I say that...
650
00:41:17,542 --> 00:41:20,968
¶ ¶
651
00:41:21,045 --> 00:41:24,096
knowing what I know.
652
00:41:24,173 --> 00:41:28,100
But it's the truth.
He was very kind to me.
653
00:41:28,177 --> 00:41:30,236
- You have to look at it
through the lens
654
00:41:30,313 --> 00:41:35,107
of this was a very, very,
very dangerous sexual predator
655
00:41:35,118 --> 00:41:38,110
who preyed
upon young teenage girls,
656
00:41:38,121 --> 00:41:41,280
who dominated them,
took advantage of them.
657
00:41:41,357 --> 00:41:44,375
And so, while he
may be extending a kindness,
658
00:41:44,452 --> 00:41:46,410
there would have been
ulterior motives.
659
00:41:46,487 --> 00:41:48,621
What was he getting back
in return?
660
00:41:48,632 --> 00:41:53,292
I think it's very possible
that Larry was grooming them.
661
00:41:53,369 --> 00:41:56,212
- He would drive me
to the beach.
662
00:41:56,289 --> 00:41:59,257
He would drive me any place
I wanted to go.
663
00:41:59,333 --> 00:42:01,509
So, we spent a lot of time
in his...
664
00:42:01,586 --> 00:42:03,344
¶ ¶
665
00:42:06,149 --> 00:42:09,350
A lot of time alone in his van.
666
00:42:09,427 --> 00:42:11,727
¶ ¶
667
00:42:11,804 --> 00:42:16,199
I had no clue, no idea
the things that he was doing.
668
00:42:17,652 --> 00:42:20,078
The last time
I was with Larry,
669
00:42:20,154 --> 00:42:23,155
I was in the van
with him alone,
670
00:42:23,166 --> 00:42:25,741
and we got in an argument
about something,
671
00:42:25,818 --> 00:42:27,961
and I don't remember
what it was.
672
00:42:29,405 --> 00:42:33,174
He pulled a gun out,
and he said to me...
673
00:42:35,578 --> 00:42:38,513
"The only reason you're alive
is 'cause you're pregnant."
674
00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:43,017
And...
675
00:42:57,183 --> 00:43:01,569
I remember jumping
out of that van so fast.
676
00:43:01,646 --> 00:43:03,487
I don't even know how--
677
00:43:03,498 --> 00:43:07,500
I don't know
how he didn't shoot me,
678
00:43:07,577 --> 00:43:12,121
knowing what I know
that he did to other girls.
679
00:43:12,198 --> 00:43:15,249
I don't--I'm really lucky
to be alive.
680
00:43:18,722 --> 00:43:20,162
And part of me feels guilty
681
00:43:20,164 --> 00:43:23,883
that I'm alive
and those girts aren't.
682
00:43:27,055 --> 00:43:32,183
¶ ¶
683
00:43:32,193 --> 00:43:35,436
- In 2018,
I had gotten pregnant.
684
00:43:35,513 --> 00:43:36,771
One week later,
685
00:43:36,847 --> 00:43:38,564
the place I was working
went into bankruptcy,
686
00:43:38,641 --> 00:43:40,983
and now I was homeless,
687
00:43:41,060 --> 00:43:43,536
jobless, and pregnant
and alone.
688
00:43:43,613 --> 00:43:46,405
It was a really,
really dark time in my life.
689
00:43:46,482 --> 00:43:48,574
But Bittaker was
the one calling me,
690
00:43:48,651 --> 00:43:50,242
saying,
"How did the doctor's go?"
691
00:44:01,288 --> 00:44:02,755
For the first time ever,
692
00:44:02,766 --> 00:44:05,558
he actually agreed
to be interviewed in person,
693
00:44:05,635 --> 00:44:08,552
so I started making plans
to go meet him.
694
00:44:08,563 --> 00:44:10,262
My doctor almost had
a heart attack
695
00:44:10,273 --> 00:44:12,565
when I told her
I was gonna go to San Quentin
696
00:44:12,642 --> 00:44:15,726
to interview serial killers,
7 1/2 months pregnant.
697
00:44:15,803 --> 00:44:17,728
She literally just drops
the pen, and she goes,
698
00:44:17,805 --> 00:44:19,772
"I don't even know
how to put this in my notes."
699
00:44:38,876 --> 00:44:41,377
The guys on death row
actually really networked
700
00:44:41,454 --> 00:44:44,588
and helped me make it possible
to actually come out there.
701
00:44:44,665 --> 00:44:47,883
They really came to my rescue,
in a sense.
702
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,460
They found me a place to stay.
703
00:44:49,462 --> 00:44:51,470
One of the wives
of the death row inmates
704
00:44:51,547 --> 00:44:53,931
actually, like, took me in.
705
00:44:54,008 --> 00:44:57,610
The goal with any interview
is to get unknown information.
706
00:44:57,687 --> 00:44:59,770
So, of course,
with having two girls
707
00:44:59,847 --> 00:45:01,614
that have never been found,
708
00:45:01,691 --> 00:45:04,158
you want to find their location
for their families.
709
00:45:17,090 --> 00:45:19,582
- Detectives at Hermosa Beach
710
00:45:19,592 --> 00:45:22,677
wanted to have a rolling
surveillance of Norris.
711
00:45:25,122 --> 00:45:27,298
- She was paid
to make certain responses.
712
00:45:27,374 --> 00:45:29,559
She was having difficulty
following those directions.
713
00:45:29,635 --> 00:45:32,720
- There was gasps
in the courtroom.
714
00:45:32,797 --> 00:45:34,221
- He was dying.
715
00:45:34,298 --> 00:45:37,608
He was a ball of emotions
and anxious and upset.
716
00:45:44,659 --> 00:45:48,536
¶ ¶
717
00:45:55,194 --> 00:46:01,123
¶ ¶
718
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,168
- When I first interviewed
Lawrence Bittaker in person
719
00:46:04,245 --> 00:46:05,669
at San Quentin's death row,
720
00:46:05,746 --> 00:46:07,597
I was 7 1/2 months pregnant.
721
00:46:07,673 --> 00:46:09,715
I was, like, wobbling
on death row.
722
00:46:09,792 --> 00:46:11,634
It was wild--even
the correctional officers
723
00:46:11,710 --> 00:46:13,677
are looking at me,
like, "What are you doing?"
724
00:46:13,754 --> 00:46:16,773
- When you're walking
into death row at San Quentin,
725
00:46:16,849 --> 00:46:19,266
you're walking
across the yard...
726
00:46:19,343 --> 00:46:21,644
people out there
milling around.
727
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:23,562
Prisons are not
safe environments
728
00:46:23,573 --> 00:46:25,180
for the other inmates,
729
00:46:25,258 --> 00:46:28,359
for the correctional officers,
and once you're inside,
730
00:46:28,435 --> 00:46:31,654
you don't have any control
over what happens to you.
731
00:46:31,730 --> 00:46:34,657
- You're signing waivers
that say if there's a riot,
732
00:46:34,733 --> 00:46:36,826
no one's gonna come for you
or fight for you.
733
00:46:36,902 --> 00:46:40,120
It's not like a phone call
like you see in the movies.
734
00:46:40,197 --> 00:46:43,290
It's a dog kennel-style cage,
735
00:46:43,367 --> 00:46:45,251
and they padlock you in.
736
00:46:45,327 --> 00:46:46,602
Two chairs and a little table,
737
00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:50,548
and you're sitting there
just face-to-face.
738
00:46:50,624 --> 00:46:52,758
The correction officers
brought Lawrence Bittaker down.
739
00:46:52,835 --> 00:46:55,052
And I remember,
when he first saw me
740
00:46:55,129 --> 00:46:56,303
and, like, how big I was,
741
00:46:56,380 --> 00:46:58,856
like, his eyes bugged
out of his head.
742
00:46:58,933 --> 00:47:00,507
He was so taken back.
743
00:47:00,585 --> 00:47:03,894
He was kind of, like,
socially awkward, I remember.
744
00:47:03,971 --> 00:47:05,321
We sat in the cage,
745
00:47:05,398 --> 00:47:07,064
and he wouldn't even look at me
in the eye
746
00:47:07,141 --> 00:47:08,908
for a good 2 1/2 hours.
747
00:47:08,985 --> 00:47:11,861
He was that shy
when we first met.
748
00:47:11,937 --> 00:47:13,529
But something inside of me
kept saying,
749
00:47:13,606 --> 00:47:14,864
"Keep going back to this guy."
750
00:47:14,940 --> 00:47:16,949
It was almost like
an intuition.
751
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,669
There was something more
to be gained with him.
752
00:47:21,214 --> 00:47:23,914
A couple months later,
I went to the hospital.
753
00:47:23,925 --> 00:47:27,710
Bittaker was even on the phone
with me when I was in labor.
754
00:47:27,786 --> 00:47:31,380
Bittaker had this love
for my son.
755
00:47:31,457 --> 00:47:33,549
I think he almost sees himself
756
00:47:33,626 --> 00:47:37,636
as, like, a surrogate father
for Romeo or grandfather.
757
00:47:37,713 --> 00:47:39,221
It was Romeo's
first birthday party.
758
00:47:39,232 --> 00:47:40,790
I had sent him a picture.
759
00:47:40,866 --> 00:47:43,309
He would bring that picture
of him with all the balloons
760
00:47:43,385 --> 00:47:46,312
and show it off
to everybody on the row.
761
00:47:46,322 --> 00:47:49,106
I think he looked
at Romeo and I
762
00:47:49,183 --> 00:47:50,616
as, like, his only family.
763
00:48:44,455 --> 00:48:48,540
He even put me down as
his next of kin in the will.
764
00:48:48,617 --> 00:48:50,292
So, yeah, I would say
765
00:48:50,369 --> 00:48:54,639
I definitely did the deepest
dive into Lawrence Bittaker.
766
00:48:56,375 --> 00:48:57,925
- My experience
with psychopaths
767
00:48:58,002 --> 00:49:02,012
is that they don't bond
with other people.
768
00:49:02,089 --> 00:49:06,350
The risks of thinking
you're getting really close
769
00:49:06,361 --> 00:49:08,519
to someone who's like that
770
00:49:08,595 --> 00:49:10,646
and giving up a lot
of personal information
771
00:49:10,723 --> 00:49:15,943
to someone that's incarcerated
could be problematic.
772
00:49:16,020 --> 00:49:19,655
You can't be 100% sure
whatsoever
773
00:49:19,732 --> 00:49:23,117
that that information
won't compromise you.
774
00:49:23,193 --> 00:49:25,461
- It is a tightrope
you're walking.
775
00:49:25,538 --> 00:49:27,129
But, you know,
the more and more
776
00:49:27,131 --> 00:49:28,998
you're building that trust
and that relationship,
777
00:49:29,074 --> 00:49:31,291
the more and more
you can push that envelope.
778
00:49:31,368 --> 00:49:33,594
And you kind of see
that develop
779
00:49:33,671 --> 00:49:35,846
with my interviews
with Bittaker.
780
00:49:48,177 --> 00:49:51,103
He had made me say
a couple promises to him,
781
00:49:51,180 --> 00:49:52,855
and one of the promises
I made to him
782
00:49:52,931 --> 00:49:54,773
was I would always be
a good mother.
783
00:49:54,850 --> 00:49:56,525
He used to say to me, "If
I just had one good parent--
784
00:49:56,602 --> 00:49:57,693
"if I had one good parent,
785
00:49:57,770 --> 00:50:00,446
I wouldn't have become
this monster."
786
00:50:00,456 --> 00:50:05,284
¶ ¶
787
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,786
The third and fourth victims
of the Toolbox Killers
788
00:50:07,863 --> 00:50:12,291
were Leah Lamp
and Jackie Gilliam.
789
00:50:12,367 --> 00:50:15,377
- In 1979, I was 14 years old.
790
00:50:15,454 --> 00:50:18,255
I met Jackie when she moved
into the apartment complex
791
00:50:18,332 --> 00:50:20,257
next door to ours,
792
00:50:20,334 --> 00:50:22,476
and we became fast friends.
793
00:50:22,553 --> 00:50:26,597
Jackie was beautiful.
She was amazing.
794
00:50:26,673 --> 00:50:29,725
This smile is so genuine.
795
00:50:29,802 --> 00:50:31,477
Jackie stayed
at my house a lot,
796
00:50:31,553 --> 00:50:34,772
and we used to spend
a lot of time
797
00:50:34,848 --> 00:50:37,149
taking the bus
to the Santa Monica Beach,
798
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,568
pretty much every day
in the summer.
799
00:50:39,645 --> 00:50:41,070
One day she told me
that she was gonna go
800
00:50:41,146 --> 00:50:43,614
to Redondo Beach
to stay with her stepsister,
801
00:50:43,690 --> 00:50:46,658
and I never heard
from her again.
802
00:50:46,735 --> 00:50:49,253
- Leah Lamp was 13.
803
00:50:49,330 --> 00:50:50,913
She was very bright.
804
00:50:50,989 --> 00:50:52,748
Had just finished
junior high school,
805
00:50:52,825 --> 00:50:55,918
and she was ready to start
high school in the fall.
806
00:50:55,994 --> 00:50:58,512
Her mother had
a new wardrobe for her,
807
00:50:58,589 --> 00:51:00,506
and she was really looking
forward to it.
808
00:51:00,516 --> 00:51:04,134
Jackie met Leah Lamp,
and they had become friends.
809
00:51:04,211 --> 00:51:08,263
One day, Leah and Jackie
decided to go to the beach.
810
00:51:08,340 --> 00:51:10,649
¶ ¶
811
00:51:23,689 --> 00:51:24,980
- Bittaker and Norris saw them
812
00:51:25,057 --> 00:51:27,500
and came up and asked them
if they needed a ride.
813
00:51:43,801 --> 00:51:45,884
- When they got into the van,
814
00:51:45,961 --> 00:51:48,470
Norris and Bittaker
offered them a joint,
815
00:51:48,547 --> 00:51:50,681
and they were sitting
in the back of the van
816
00:51:50,757 --> 00:51:52,975
with Norris,
smoking this joint.
817
00:51:53,051 --> 00:51:55,811
That is when Norris
took a homemade sap.
818
00:51:55,888 --> 00:51:58,355
- It was full of BBs,
really heavy.
819
00:51:58,432 --> 00:52:02,901
And he hit Leah in the head
with it and knocked her out.
820
00:52:02,978 --> 00:52:05,195
- While Leah was down,
he tried to grab Jackie.
821
00:52:05,272 --> 00:52:07,823
- At some point,
Leah regained consciousness
822
00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:09,533
and tried to get out
of the van.
823
00:52:09,610 --> 00:52:11,752
- It was on front
of tennis courts,
824
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:13,245
so people were playing tennis
825
00:52:13,322 --> 00:52:14,997
and actually stopped,
looked over.
826
00:52:15,073 --> 00:52:17,758
Leah Lamp jumped
out of the van, screaming.
827
00:52:17,835 --> 00:52:20,419
- Bittaker stopped the van,
came around,
828
00:52:20,495 --> 00:52:23,380
and slugged Leah in the face
as hard as he could,
829
00:52:23,391 --> 00:52:24,965
knocking her back.
830
00:52:25,042 --> 00:52:26,758
He turned to everybody
and said,
831
00:52:26,835 --> 00:52:28,561
"She's having a bad LSD trip."
832
00:52:28,637 --> 00:52:35,693
¶ ¶
833
00:52:42,351 --> 00:52:44,151
¶ ¶
834
00:52:44,228 --> 00:52:46,111
- Leah Lamp was 13 years old,
835
00:52:46,188 --> 00:52:48,405
and Jackie Gilliam
was 15 years old.
836
00:52:48,482 --> 00:52:51,542
When they got into the van,
Norris took a homemade sap,
837
00:52:51,619 --> 00:52:54,286
hit Leah Lamp over the back
of the head with it.
838
00:52:54,297 --> 00:52:57,247
While Leah was down,
he then tried to grab Jackie.
839
00:52:57,324 --> 00:52:59,750
- At some point,
Leah regained consciousness
840
00:52:59,826 --> 00:53:01,585
and tried to get
out of the van.
841
00:53:01,662 --> 00:53:04,713
- Leah Lamp actually jumped
out of the van, screaming.
842
00:53:04,790 --> 00:53:06,673
It was in front
of tennis courts.
843
00:53:06,750 --> 00:53:08,175
So people were playing tennis
844
00:53:08,186 --> 00:53:10,135
and actually stopped,
looked over.
845
00:53:10,212 --> 00:53:12,387
- Bittaker stopped the van,
came around,
846
00:53:12,464 --> 00:53:15,015
and slugged Leah in the face
as hard as he could,
847
00:53:15,092 --> 00:53:16,934
knocking her back.
848
00:53:17,010 --> 00:53:18,635
- He turned to everybody
and said,
849
00:53:18,713 --> 00:53:22,189
"She's having a bad LSD trip.
I'm just taking her home."
850
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,442
¶ ¶
851
00:53:25,519 --> 00:53:28,329
They took the girls
up to San Gabriel Mountain.
852
00:53:28,405 --> 00:53:31,990
¶ ¶
853
00:53:32,067 --> 00:53:34,534
- Bittaker told Jackie
that he was gonna rape her
854
00:53:34,611 --> 00:53:38,330
and she better pretend
that she was enjoying it.
855
00:53:38,407 --> 00:53:40,841
- Bittaker finds out
that she is a virgin,
856
00:53:40,918 --> 00:53:45,128
and he wants to audio-record
the rape of a virgin.
857
00:53:45,205 --> 00:53:47,631
So he took the audio recorder,
858
00:53:47,708 --> 00:53:51,352
and when he was raping Jackie,
she was screaming.
859
00:54:13,233 --> 00:54:15,367
That is not what he admitted
later in person.
860
00:54:15,378 --> 00:54:17,878
You know, these girls
were scared out of their mind.
861
00:54:17,955 --> 00:54:19,955
Sadists are getting off
on that fear.
862
00:54:20,032 --> 00:54:21,999
That's what they love.
That's what they want to see.
863
00:54:22,075 --> 00:54:23,375
- When Bittaker would talk
864
00:54:23,452 --> 00:54:26,178
about the girls
went willingly with him,
865
00:54:26,255 --> 00:54:28,922
he's trying to minimize
any responsibility
866
00:54:28,999 --> 00:54:32,050
he has for these murders.
867
00:54:32,127 --> 00:54:34,928
- There was a ton
of photographs taken
868
00:54:35,005 --> 00:54:37,481
of Jackie Gilliam--
sexual acts with Bittaker.
869
00:54:54,658 --> 00:54:57,534
What's really haunting
about the pictures
870
00:54:57,611 --> 00:54:59,870
with Jackie Gilliam is,
871
00:54:59,946 --> 00:55:01,213
you know, it's very clear
872
00:55:01,290 --> 00:55:03,081
she has a black eye
in the pictures.
873
00:55:03,158 --> 00:55:05,250
Her ankles are bound.
Her wrists are bound.
874
00:55:05,327 --> 00:55:07,711
She's naked
in the back of a van.
875
00:55:07,788 --> 00:55:10,714
And she has a smile
on her face.
876
00:55:10,791 --> 00:55:13,717
Obviously
Bittaker forced her to smile
877
00:55:13,794 --> 00:55:16,887
during these pictures
that he took of her.
878
00:55:16,963 --> 00:55:20,432
- He showed some of these
photographs to other people,
879
00:55:20,509 --> 00:55:22,476
so he had no sense
of what's appropriate
880
00:55:22,552 --> 00:55:23,685
and what's not appropriate.
881
00:55:23,762 --> 00:55:25,187
So he used it to masturbate,
882
00:55:25,263 --> 00:55:28,315
and then he used it thinking
he was impressing people.
883
00:55:28,392 --> 00:55:32,736
¶ ¶
884
00:55:32,813 --> 00:55:34,821
- Bittaker decides,
"Well, we don't have
885
00:55:34,898 --> 00:55:36,248
"to go to work tomorrow,
886
00:55:36,325 --> 00:55:38,784
so let's sleep
with the girls overnight."
887
00:55:38,860 --> 00:55:41,503
- They slept in the van,
and they took shifts sleeping
888
00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:43,421
and watching the girls.
889
00:55:43,423 --> 00:55:47,709
- Bittaker was in the van.
Norris stood guard.
890
00:55:47,786 --> 00:55:50,754
- Bittaker and Roy Norris
kept them the longest.
891
00:55:50,831 --> 00:55:52,514
It was somewhere
around 48 hours.
892
00:56:13,895 --> 00:56:16,571
- Eventually Bittaker decided
893
00:56:16,648 --> 00:56:19,282
that he had had enough,
and so...
894
00:56:19,293 --> 00:56:23,161
he cradled Jackie's head
in one hand,
895
00:56:23,238 --> 00:56:25,297
took the ice pick
with the other hand,
896
00:56:25,374 --> 00:56:28,667
and drove it
into her ear canal,
897
00:56:28,743 --> 00:56:30,502
into the brain.
898
00:56:30,513 --> 00:56:33,338
Went to take it out,
but the handle came off.
899
00:56:33,415 --> 00:56:35,340
- When Jackie's skull
was found,
900
00:56:35,417 --> 00:56:39,019
the ice pick was embedded
into the skull.
901
00:56:39,096 --> 00:56:42,189
¶ ¶
902
00:56:56,271 --> 00:56:59,197
- And then they got
the girls' bodies
903
00:56:59,274 --> 00:57:01,116
much the way they did
with Cindy,
904
00:57:01,193 --> 00:57:03,952
and they tossed them
as far as they could
905
00:57:04,029 --> 00:57:07,339
down this really steep ravine.
906
00:57:08,459 --> 00:57:11,793
- Jackie Gilliam and Leah Lamp
were the only two victims
907
00:57:11,870 --> 00:57:15,130
that were found
up on San Gabriel Mountain.
908
00:57:15,141 --> 00:57:18,884
It was just partial remains
of their bones were recovered.
909
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,261
¶ ¶
910
00:57:21,338 --> 00:57:23,722
They told me she was tortured.
911
00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:28,101
They told me there was
an ice pick stuck in her ear.
912
00:57:28,178 --> 00:57:30,571
¶ ¶
913
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:37,077
It wasn't a pretty picture,
the things they said.
914
00:57:37,154 --> 00:57:39,571
¶ ¶
915
00:57:39,582 --> 00:57:41,490
- It's just devastating.
916
00:57:41,566 --> 00:57:43,241
I remember one day,
917
00:57:43,318 --> 00:57:46,036
Leah Lamp's mother
was in my office.
918
00:57:46,112 --> 00:57:47,537
Her name was Myrna Carlisle.
919
00:57:47,614 --> 00:57:50,248
And I said, "Myrna,
you don't look so good.
920
00:57:50,325 --> 00:57:52,167
Have you been sleeping
all right?"
921
00:57:52,244 --> 00:57:54,711
She said, "I don't sleep.
922
00:57:54,788 --> 00:57:57,172
"I have two eight-hour jobs,
923
00:57:57,249 --> 00:57:59,224
"one in the daytime
and one at night,
924
00:57:59,301 --> 00:58:01,760
"because I can't go to sleep,
because if I sleep,
925
00:58:01,836 --> 00:58:06,139
I have nightmares about
how my daughter was murdered."
926
00:58:06,216 --> 00:58:09,392
And, oh, my gosh.
927
00:58:09,469 --> 00:58:11,111
- I don't think at that age
I understood
928
00:58:11,188 --> 00:58:13,405
really what was going on
929
00:58:13,482 --> 00:58:17,275
until the detectives
started coming to my house.
930
00:58:17,352 --> 00:58:19,236
It was horrible hearing
things like that
931
00:58:19,246 --> 00:58:21,821
about one of my best friends.
932
00:58:21,898 --> 00:58:25,033
Jackie didn't deserve that.
933
00:58:25,110 --> 00:58:26,743
- Both Bittaker and Norris
934
00:58:26,820 --> 00:58:28,703
knew that the police
had nothing on them
935
00:58:28,780 --> 00:58:31,122
and that they were
not being looked for.
936
00:58:31,133 --> 00:58:32,757
They started
to feel invincible,
937
00:58:32,759 --> 00:58:36,002
and they started
getting bolder and bolder.
938
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:38,964
- October 31, 1979--
939
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,341
Bittaker and Norris
were out looking for victims.
940
00:58:41,418 --> 00:58:43,260
It was kind of late at night.
941
00:58:43,336 --> 00:58:44,761
- They were away
from The Strand.
942
00:58:44,838 --> 00:58:46,179
They were out in the Valley,
943
00:58:46,256 --> 00:58:49,474
which was a deviation
from their normal pattern.
944
00:58:49,551 --> 00:58:51,851
Shirley Lynette Ledford--
945
00:58:51,928 --> 00:58:53,311
just a young girl
946
00:58:53,388 --> 00:58:56,448
in the wrong place
at the wrong time.
947
00:58:56,525 --> 00:58:59,359
- She was a 16-year-old girl
who lived in Burbank.
948
00:58:59,436 --> 00:59:02,821
- She had a boyfriend.
Had a lot of friends.
949
00:59:02,897 --> 00:59:04,447
- She was a wonderful person.
950
00:59:04,524 --> 00:59:08,326
She just thought only
the best of people.
951
00:59:08,403 --> 00:59:10,453
- Lynette had been
at a Halloween party.
952
00:59:10,530 --> 00:59:12,330
- All the friends
I've talked to
953
00:59:12,341 --> 00:59:14,082
said they had
a great time at the party.
954
00:59:14,159 --> 00:59:15,917
She was happy.
955
00:59:15,994 --> 00:59:18,670
- She was hitchhiking home.
956
00:59:18,681 --> 00:59:21,506
- Bittaker and Norris
spotted her.
957
00:59:21,583 --> 00:59:24,175
- We picked her up
north of Burbank,
958
00:59:24,252 --> 00:59:25,510
and she jumped right in.
959
00:59:25,587 --> 00:59:28,355
I mean,
she wanted a ride somewhere.
960
00:59:30,050 --> 00:59:33,143
Bittaker grabbed her
and threw her in the back.
961
00:59:33,219 --> 00:59:34,811
He and I both
struggled with her.
962
00:59:34,888 --> 00:59:38,156
You know,
he pulled out a knife.
963
00:59:38,233 --> 00:59:40,650
- She grabbed the knife blade
964
00:59:40,727 --> 00:59:44,571
and cut her finger
pretty seriously.
965
00:59:44,648 --> 00:59:48,742
¶ ¶
966
00:59:48,818 --> 00:59:51,587
- If you look
at Lynette Ledford...
967
00:59:51,663 --> 00:59:56,124
¶ ¶
968
00:59:56,135 --> 00:59:58,126
It's showing
this progression of sadism
969
00:59:58,137 --> 01:00:00,462
and how much worse
they are getting
970
01:00:00,538 --> 01:00:02,514
with each and every murder.
971
01:00:02,591 --> 01:00:09,479
¶ ¶
972
01:00:18,348 --> 01:00:22,034
¶ ¶
973
01:00:22,110 --> 01:00:24,152
- Shirley Lynette Ledford--
974
01:00:24,229 --> 01:00:27,581
just a young girl in the wrong
place and the wrong time.
975
01:00:48,503 --> 01:00:50,845
- Bittaker grabbed Lynette
976
01:00:50,922 --> 01:00:53,515
and threw her
into the back of the van.
977
01:00:53,591 --> 01:00:55,225
Bittaker had a knife.
978
01:00:55,301 --> 01:00:57,944
She grabbed the knife blade
979
01:00:58,021 --> 01:01:00,438
and cut her finger
pretty seriously.
980
01:01:00,515 --> 01:01:04,734
¶ ¶
981
01:01:04,811 --> 01:01:08,530
- They were able to get her
bound in the back of the van.
982
01:01:08,606 --> 01:01:10,281
They didn't bring her
to the mountains.
983
01:01:10,292 --> 01:01:13,159
They brought her
to, like, a gravel dirt path,
984
01:01:13,236 --> 01:01:15,745
somewhere isolated
but still in Burbank.
985
01:01:15,822 --> 01:01:20,384
That's where they proceeded
to torture and rape her.
986
01:01:21,786 --> 01:01:24,546
During the time of these rape
and torture,
987
01:01:24,622 --> 01:01:27,549
Bittaker and Norris
are making her play along
988
01:01:27,625 --> 01:01:29,643
that she likes it.
989
01:01:49,647 --> 01:01:51,957
- Bittaker wasn't after
loving porn,
990
01:01:52,033 --> 01:01:55,452
and I'm not even sure
what that phrase means.
991
01:01:55,462 --> 01:01:57,036
This tape was gonna be used
992
01:01:57,113 --> 01:02:00,039
for his own
sexual gratification
993
01:02:00,116 --> 01:02:01,583
after the attack had ended.
994
01:02:01,659 --> 01:02:03,918
Bittaker would want
to listen to it again
995
01:02:03,995 --> 01:02:06,847
as he thought about what
he had done to his victims.
996
01:02:18,676 --> 01:02:20,810
- She was beaten
around the chest,
997
01:02:20,887 --> 01:02:21,862
around the face.
998
01:02:21,938 --> 01:02:24,397
- Bittaker raped her
and tortured her
999
01:02:24,474 --> 01:02:26,658
with pliers and screwdriver.
1000
01:02:37,946 --> 01:02:41,206
He and Norris
then traded spots.
1001
01:02:41,282 --> 01:02:43,166
Norris, to get her to scream,
1002
01:02:43,243 --> 01:02:45,594
hit her on the elbow
with a sledgehammer.
1003
01:03:00,885 --> 01:03:03,144
- They wanted to capture
the girl's scream,
1004
01:03:03,221 --> 01:03:05,030
and the girls' screams
is what got them off.
1005
01:03:05,106 --> 01:03:07,732
So, you know,
if she wasn't screaming
1006
01:03:07,809 --> 01:03:09,984
as loud enough as they wanted,
1007
01:03:10,061 --> 01:03:12,370
the torture kept getting
worse and worse.
1008
01:03:35,136 --> 01:03:39,305
- When Larry talks
about it being spontaneous,
1009
01:03:39,382 --> 01:03:42,559
it's an effort to take away
the criminality from it.
1010
01:03:42,635 --> 01:03:47,522
And yet, they have a van that
they purposely soundproofed.
1011
01:03:47,599 --> 01:03:50,859
They engaged
in predatory behavior.
1012
01:03:50,935 --> 01:03:53,361
- Roy Norris
took a coat hanger
1013
01:03:53,438 --> 01:03:57,240
and wrapped it around her neck
and used pliers to twist it.
1014
01:03:57,251 --> 01:03:58,750
When they found her body
1015
01:03:58,827 --> 01:04:01,703
and took this metal
coat hanger off of her neck,
1016
01:04:01,779 --> 01:04:03,788
it was the size
of a silver dollar.
1017
01:04:03,865 --> 01:04:06,550
That's how much he had
twisted it around her neck.
1018
01:04:08,494 --> 01:04:10,545
- It was, like, getting late,
1019
01:04:10,622 --> 01:04:12,472
real late
in the early morning.
1020
01:04:12,549 --> 01:04:14,465
I had to be back
to work at 7:30.
1021
01:04:14,542 --> 01:04:16,759
I had a long way to drive.
1022
01:04:16,836 --> 01:04:20,555
We finally just decided
that we'd just dump her off,
1023
01:04:20,632 --> 01:04:23,141
you know, probably
on somebody's lawn,
1024
01:04:23,217 --> 01:04:24,767
more than anything else,
1025
01:04:24,844 --> 01:04:26,862
to see what reaction
we would get in the papers,
1026
01:04:26,938 --> 01:04:30,106
'cause he wanted to know
how society would react to it,
1027
01:04:30,183 --> 01:04:31,232
I guess.
1028
01:04:31,309 --> 01:04:36,738
¶ ¶
1029
01:04:36,748 --> 01:04:40,992
- The next day, the woman's
property who it was on,
1030
01:04:41,003 --> 01:04:44,203
she actually thought it was
a mannequin from Halloween.
1031
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:48,133
Lynette was discarded there
for the purpose
1032
01:04:48,209 --> 01:04:51,377
of messing
with the cops and the press.
1033
01:04:51,454 --> 01:04:54,839
They wanted to get a reaction
from everybody.
1034
01:04:54,916 --> 01:04:57,517
There was a lot more girls
they were already stalking
1035
01:04:57,594 --> 01:04:59,636
and planning to attack
at this point.
1036
01:04:59,712 --> 01:05:01,521
One was an airline stewardess,
1037
01:05:01,598 --> 01:05:05,350
and one was a 13-year-old girl
in a residential neighborhood.
1038
01:05:05,426 --> 01:05:08,770
- I believe that Roy and Larry
would have continued
1039
01:05:08,780 --> 01:05:13,316
to kidnap, assault,
and torture young girls
1040
01:05:13,393 --> 01:05:16,319
until they got caught.
1041
01:05:16,396 --> 01:05:18,529
They would not have stopped.
1042
01:05:18,606 --> 01:05:20,540
¶ ¶
1043
01:05:20,617 --> 01:05:22,116
- When Roy was in jail,
1044
01:05:22,193 --> 01:05:24,953
he became friends
with a guy named Joe Jackson.
1045
01:05:25,029 --> 01:05:29,874
One day, Roy tells Jackson
that he has been kidnapping,
1046
01:05:29,951 --> 01:05:31,793
raping, and murdering girls
1047
01:05:31,869 --> 01:05:34,504
all over the South Bay
with Lawrence Bittaker.
1048
01:05:34,580 --> 01:05:35,839
- Told me that he killed them
1049
01:05:35,915 --> 01:05:37,799
because this way
he could sleep at night
1050
01:05:37,875 --> 01:05:40,969
and not have to worry
about being identified.
1051
01:05:41,045 --> 01:05:44,856
- It disturbed, you know,
Jackson so much, so deeply
1052
01:05:44,933 --> 01:05:48,652
that even a serial rapist
himself went to the cops.
1053
01:05:49,971 --> 01:05:52,146
- Detectives at Hermosa Beach,
1054
01:05:52,223 --> 01:05:55,149
Paul Bynum and his partner,
Tom Cray,
1055
01:05:55,226 --> 01:05:58,569
got really interested
in these guys.
1056
01:05:58,646 --> 01:06:00,279
Bynum started thinking
more about it
1057
01:06:00,356 --> 01:06:03,491
and said, "You know,
this guy isn't smart enough
1058
01:06:03,568 --> 01:06:05,351
to cook up these facts."
1059
01:06:05,353 --> 01:06:08,037
And they wanted to have
a rolling surveillance
1060
01:06:08,114 --> 01:06:10,340
of Norris.
1061
01:06:10,417 --> 01:06:11,708
They followed Norris.
1062
01:06:11,784 --> 01:06:13,960
Norris stopped at a drugstore,
1063
01:06:14,037 --> 01:06:18,715
and he left a shopping bag
in the front seat, open.
1064
01:06:18,791 --> 01:06:20,641
Bynum looked in
1065
01:06:20,719 --> 01:06:24,095
and saw that the shopping bag
was full of marijuana.
1066
01:06:25,706 --> 01:06:29,017
So the police came up
and stuck a gun in his ear,
1067
01:06:29,093 --> 01:06:32,562
said, "I'm putting you under
arrest for parole violation,"
1068
01:06:32,638 --> 01:06:36,524
and that meant that they could
search Norris' residence.
1069
01:06:36,601 --> 01:06:40,361
And, boy, did they find a lot
in Norris' residence.
1070
01:06:40,372 --> 01:06:44,032
¶ ¶
1071
01:06:44,108 --> 01:06:48,244
They found about
500 photographs of young women
1072
01:06:48,321 --> 01:06:51,372
taken in supermarket
parking lots,
1073
01:06:51,383 --> 01:06:55,460
women's gyms, girls walking
home from high school.
1074
01:06:55,536 --> 01:06:57,336
- Every one
of these photographs
1075
01:06:57,413 --> 01:06:59,005
represents a potential victim.
1076
01:06:59,082 --> 01:07:01,424
- They also found
the photograph
1077
01:07:01,501 --> 01:07:04,761
of the girl who was nude
from the waist up,
1078
01:07:04,837 --> 01:07:06,888
with her hands folded
behind her head,
1079
01:07:06,964 --> 01:07:10,433
who we now know
is Jackie Gilliam.
1080
01:07:10,444 --> 01:07:13,227
¶ ¶
1081
01:07:13,304 --> 01:07:16,731
While they were there,
Bittaker called and said,
1082
01:07:16,808 --> 01:07:18,158
"Well, where's Norris?"
1083
01:07:18,234 --> 01:07:19,776
And somebody said,
1084
01:07:19,852 --> 01:07:23,154
"Oh, well, he's up on the roof
fixing his antenna."
1085
01:07:23,231 --> 01:07:25,615
Well, Bittaker thought
that there was something fishy,
1086
01:07:25,691 --> 01:07:28,743
so he hurriedly cleaned out
his van.
1087
01:07:28,820 --> 01:07:30,787
- The photographs, the tapes--
1088
01:07:30,863 --> 01:07:32,672
he does an entire sweep
of this van.
1089
01:07:32,749 --> 01:07:34,049
He got rid of everything.
1090
01:07:42,166 --> 01:07:45,259
When they were doing a search
at Norris' duplex,
1091
01:07:45,336 --> 01:07:48,387
they found a little card
that said "the Scott's Motel,"
1092
01:07:48,464 --> 01:07:49,814
with Bittaker's name on it.
1093
01:07:49,891 --> 01:07:52,391
So they sent over
the Burbank PD that night.
1094
01:07:52,468 --> 01:07:54,819
They kicked in his door
and his window.
1095
01:07:54,896 --> 01:07:57,438
He was in the shower
when they arrested him.
1096
01:07:57,515 --> 01:08:00,608
¶ ¶
1097
01:08:00,685 --> 01:08:02,068
- The Sheriff's Department
1098
01:08:02,145 --> 01:08:04,153
identified Roy Norris
and Lawrence Bittaker...
1099
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:07,082
- Raping and murdering
five teenage girls.
1100
01:08:07,158 --> 01:08:09,534
- The evil
that these guys caused,
1101
01:08:09,610 --> 01:08:12,787
it really captured the fear
of the city of Los Angeles.
1102
01:08:12,864 --> 01:08:14,956
- Teenagers brutally attacked.
1103
01:08:14,966 --> 01:08:16,507
- Just a lot more careful
about where I go.
1104
01:08:16,584 --> 01:08:18,459
- I'm afraid to be
walking down the street.
1105
01:08:18,536 --> 01:08:21,754
- I got a call
that Bynum and Cray had a case
1106
01:08:21,831 --> 01:08:23,965
that they wanted me to review,
1107
01:08:24,041 --> 01:08:26,801
and I saw the name Roy Norris,
and I thought,
1108
01:08:26,878 --> 01:08:29,887
"Wait, but he got sent
to prison,
1109
01:08:29,898 --> 01:08:31,206
"three years to life.
1110
01:08:31,208 --> 01:08:33,149
That can't be the same one."
1111
01:08:33,226 --> 01:08:36,394
- One of the suspects,
32-year-old Roy Lewis Norris,
1112
01:08:36,470 --> 01:08:39,355
has implicated
Lawrence Simon Bittaker.
1113
01:08:39,432 --> 01:08:41,315
- It was kind of
like pulling teeth,
1114
01:08:41,392 --> 01:08:44,235
but Norris eventually
signed an agreement
1115
01:08:44,312 --> 01:08:48,156
that he could plead guilty
to all of the murders,
1116
01:08:48,232 --> 01:08:51,742
and he would get a sentence
of 45 years to life,
1117
01:08:51,819 --> 01:08:56,247
and he would have to lead us
to the bodies of the victims.
1118
01:08:56,324 --> 01:08:58,708
Norris, of course, was the one
leading the searches,
1119
01:08:58,784 --> 01:09:03,138
because he knew, supposedly,
where the bodies were.
1120
01:09:03,214 --> 01:09:06,799
Searches in January
didn't find anything.
1121
01:09:06,876 --> 01:09:09,427
Went searching
on the 8th of February.
1122
01:09:09,503 --> 01:09:11,679
Didn't find anything.
1123
01:09:11,756 --> 01:09:14,015
And then on the 9th,
with the help
1124
01:09:14,091 --> 01:09:16,601
of the Sierra Madre
Search and Rescue Team,
1125
01:09:16,677 --> 01:09:21,105
we climbed down
this incredibly steep ravine,
1126
01:09:21,182 --> 01:09:24,150
about 300 feet down.
1127
01:09:24,227 --> 01:09:28,413
That's where the remains
of Jackie and Leah were found.
1128
01:09:30,816 --> 01:09:32,617
- It was
partial skeletal remains,
1129
01:09:32,627 --> 01:09:36,287
only, you know, a few months
after they had been killed.
1130
01:09:36,298 --> 01:09:38,748
Jackie Gilliam
had the ice pick
1131
01:09:38,824 --> 01:09:40,625
embedded in the skull.
1132
01:09:40,701 --> 01:09:42,210
- Bittaker was not
that cooperative.
1133
01:09:42,286 --> 01:09:45,213
He said he wanted to talk.
He waived his rights.
1134
01:09:45,289 --> 01:09:48,466
And he just said,
"You ain't got sh--."
1135
01:09:48,542 --> 01:09:51,677
- Bittaker stripped
this entire van clean,
1136
01:09:51,754 --> 01:09:54,847
but he had missed one thing...
1137
01:09:54,924 --> 01:09:58,100
the Ledford tape
in the cassette player.
1138
01:09:58,177 --> 01:10:00,102
- It was like something
that none of us
1139
01:10:00,179 --> 01:10:01,771
had ever heard before.
1140
01:10:01,847 --> 01:10:04,482
I mean,
it was the tape recording
1141
01:10:04,558 --> 01:10:06,442
of an actual murder.
1142
01:10:09,480 --> 01:10:10,914
¶ ¶
1143
01:10:17,571 --> 01:10:20,748
¶ ¶
1144
01:10:20,825 --> 01:10:22,133
- The Sheriff's Department
1145
01:10:22,210 --> 01:10:24,460
identified Roy Norris
and Lawrence Bittaker
1146
01:10:24,537 --> 01:10:28,005
as the main suspects
in five local rape-murders.
1147
01:10:28,016 --> 01:10:29,799
- The jury of seven women
and five men
1148
01:10:29,875 --> 01:10:33,010
is expected to get the case
on Wednesday.
1149
01:10:33,087 --> 01:10:34,887
- The Bittaker trial
was the first case
1150
01:10:34,964 --> 01:10:36,305
in California history
1151
01:10:36,382 --> 01:10:38,933
that they allowed cameras
in the courtroom,
1152
01:10:39,010 --> 01:10:42,520
over the objection
of the defense.
1153
01:10:42,530 --> 01:10:45,189
Bittaker did not want
those cameras in the courtroom.
1154
01:10:45,266 --> 01:10:47,608
His attorneys didn't want them
in the courtroom.
1155
01:10:47,685 --> 01:10:49,986
But the judge, Fredericks,
1156
01:10:50,062 --> 01:10:52,113
said, "No, this is
too important."
1157
01:10:52,189 --> 01:10:55,199
Every newspaper,
every television station
1158
01:10:55,276 --> 01:10:57,159
had a reporter covering it.
1159
01:10:57,236 --> 01:10:59,211
- Norris, you'll recall,
pleaded guilty
1160
01:10:59,289 --> 01:11:02,748
to all the charges and agreed
to testify against Bittaker
1161
01:11:02,825 --> 01:11:05,167
in order to avoid
the death penalty.
1162
01:11:05,178 --> 01:11:07,512
- Bittaker pled not guilty.
1163
01:11:07,588 --> 01:11:09,755
Did I think
I was gonna get a conviction?
1164
01:11:09,832 --> 01:11:11,507
Well, I hoped I would,
1165
01:11:11,584 --> 01:11:14,385
but it was not
a foregone conclusion.
1166
01:11:14,462 --> 01:11:16,887
- The trial is expected
to take two months.
1167
01:11:16,964 --> 01:11:19,774
Bittaker could get the
death penalty if convicted.
1168
01:11:19,851 --> 01:11:22,518
- These were all
wonderful girls.
1169
01:11:22,595 --> 01:11:25,438
I had their pictures
on a board
1170
01:11:25,514 --> 01:11:27,148
when I was giving
my opening statement,
1171
01:11:27,224 --> 01:11:29,158
'cause I wanted the jurors
to get to know
1172
01:11:29,235 --> 01:11:31,027
what these girls
were like in life.
1173
01:11:31,103 --> 01:11:34,405
- It was scary... scary.
1174
01:11:34,482 --> 01:11:36,416
I was uncomfortable
in the courtroom
1175
01:11:36,492 --> 01:11:38,951
looking at Lawrence Bittaker.
1176
01:11:39,028 --> 01:11:42,288
And I hated him
for what he had done.
1177
01:11:42,365 --> 01:11:44,749
- Norris said he didn't want
to kill the girl,
1178
01:11:44,825 --> 01:11:46,450
but said he was too afraid
1179
01:11:46,528 --> 01:11:49,170
of alleged accomplice
Lawrence Bittaker not to.
1180
01:11:49,246 --> 01:11:52,181
- Norris was responsible
for his own actions,
1181
01:11:52,258 --> 01:11:54,884
and he's lying about all of it.
1182
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:58,012
- Roy's version of the crimes,
a lot of times,
1183
01:11:58,089 --> 01:12:00,389
is very, very different
than Bittaker's.
1184
01:12:00,466 --> 01:12:03,100
- The defense attorneys
came to me first
1185
01:12:03,177 --> 01:12:06,070
because Larry was nice to me
1186
01:12:06,147 --> 01:12:09,699
and wanted me to testify
on his behalf.
1187
01:12:09,776 --> 01:12:11,359
They subpoenaed me.
1188
01:12:11,435 --> 01:12:14,070
I begged them
to not make me say...
1189
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:15,988
In front of the camera
1190
01:12:16,065 --> 01:12:18,458
that he was nice to me.
1191
01:12:18,534 --> 01:12:19,784
Tracee Lee Peña--
1192
01:12:19,860 --> 01:12:21,335
P-E-N-A.
1193
01:12:21,412 --> 01:12:24,372
I remember them
asking about the gun
1194
01:12:24,448 --> 01:12:26,707
and me talking about the gun.
1195
01:12:26,784 --> 01:12:29,960
And he was pissed
because I brought that up.
1196
01:12:29,971 --> 01:12:31,462
He was really pissed.
1197
01:12:31,539 --> 01:12:34,382
And I thought, "He's gonna
kill me in the courtroom."
1198
01:12:34,458 --> 01:12:37,551
Like, you know,
that's what's gonna happen.
1199
01:12:37,628 --> 01:12:42,223
- Oh, I thought about killing
Lawrence Bittaker at the trial.
1200
01:12:42,299 --> 01:12:44,558
I would dream that I had a gun,
1201
01:12:44,635 --> 01:12:46,727
and I snuck it
into the courtroom.
1202
01:12:46,804 --> 01:12:48,771
- This afternoon,
in a surprise move,
1203
01:12:48,848 --> 01:12:52,316
Bittaker took the stand
in his own defense.
1204
01:12:52,393 --> 01:12:53,776
- Basically
Bittaker's defense was,
1205
01:12:53,787 --> 01:12:55,820
"I didn't do it.
It was the other guy," right?
1206
01:12:55,896 --> 01:12:56,987
"It was Norris."
1207
01:12:56,998 --> 01:12:59,198
- Mr. Norris and another party
1208
01:12:59,275 --> 01:13:02,243
took turns raping her.
1209
01:13:02,319 --> 01:13:05,287
Mr. Norris killed her
1210
01:13:05,364 --> 01:13:08,416
with two hammer blows
to the head.
1211
01:13:08,492 --> 01:13:13,504
- Bittaker's defense
was that he didn't do it,
1212
01:13:13,515 --> 01:13:16,090
that Norris was the killer,
1213
01:13:16,167 --> 01:13:18,676
and was trying to blame him.
1214
01:13:18,686 --> 01:13:21,145
He said
that he wasn't even there
1215
01:13:21,222 --> 01:13:23,347
when Cindy Schaefer
was murdered.
1216
01:13:23,424 --> 01:13:26,559
- Have you ever seen
that young lady in person?
1217
01:13:26,635 --> 01:13:28,152
- No, sir.
1218
01:13:28,229 --> 01:13:29,895
- You ever taken
any photographs of this girl?
1219
01:13:29,972 --> 01:13:30,938
- No, sir.
1220
01:13:31,015 --> 01:13:33,357
- He said Andrea Hall
1221
01:13:33,368 --> 01:13:36,360
agreed to sex for $200.
1222
01:13:36,437 --> 01:13:38,320
- If she was bound and gagged,
as Mr. Norris states,
1223
01:13:38,397 --> 01:13:39,771
she wouldn't be able to hit me.
1224
01:13:39,849 --> 01:13:43,659
- He said Jackie Gilliam
agreed to $600
1225
01:13:43,736 --> 01:13:47,413
to pose in the photographs
of her taped up.
1226
01:13:47,490 --> 01:13:49,707
- She was paid
to make certain responses.
1227
01:13:49,783 --> 01:13:52,376
She was having difficulty
following those directions.
1228
01:13:52,453 --> 01:13:56,255
- And that Lynette Ledford
was drug-crazed.
1229
01:13:56,332 --> 01:13:57,840
- I cannot explain the actions
1230
01:13:57,917 --> 01:14:01,010
of a intoxicated individual
who's on PCP.
1231
01:14:01,086 --> 01:14:04,430
- He never said, "God, I wish
Norris hadn't don't that."
1232
01:14:04,507 --> 01:14:05,790
You know?
1233
01:14:05,866 --> 01:14:08,684
"I wish I had known.
I could've stopped him."
1234
01:14:08,761 --> 01:14:09,868
None of that.
1235
01:14:09,945 --> 01:14:11,779
- The main thing
I had going for me
1236
01:14:11,856 --> 01:14:13,731
was the Lynette Ledford
torture tape.
1237
01:14:13,807 --> 01:14:16,534
Nobody has ever had a piece
of evidence like that.
1238
01:14:16,611 --> 01:14:18,402
- The most dramatic moments
of the trial
1239
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:19,904
are expected
to come on Wednesday,
1240
01:14:19,980 --> 01:14:21,739
when a tape recording
of the torture
1241
01:14:21,815 --> 01:14:25,284
of the fifth murder victim
will be played to the jury.
1242
01:14:25,361 --> 01:14:26,735
- Stephen warned me.
1243
01:14:26,813 --> 01:14:28,871
He says, "You know,
this is gonna be pretty heavy."
1244
01:14:28,948 --> 01:14:31,290
They begin to play the tape.
1245
01:14:31,367 --> 01:14:33,834
¶ ¶
1246
01:14:33,845 --> 01:14:38,598
Now, I'm not even gonna try
to explain how bad it was.
1247
01:14:38,674 --> 01:14:42,426
But just let
your imagination think...
1248
01:14:42,503 --> 01:14:44,520
of the worst thing
you've ever heard,
1249
01:14:44,597 --> 01:14:48,774
because this poor girl
is just begging for her life.
1250
01:14:50,594 --> 01:14:54,104
- The tape was one of the worst
things I've ever heard
1251
01:14:54,115 --> 01:14:57,107
in my entire
professional career.
1252
01:14:57,184 --> 01:14:59,443
It should never see
the light of day.
1253
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,446
It is very, very,
very upsetting.
1254
01:15:02,523 --> 01:15:07,243
And, frankly,
it involves the torture
1255
01:15:07,319 --> 01:15:08,869
of an innocent young woman.
1256
01:15:08,946 --> 01:15:10,454
And, so, at her expense,
1257
01:15:10,531 --> 01:15:15,125
it should never, ever be played
for an audience.
1258
01:15:15,202 --> 01:15:21,465
¶ ¶
1259
01:15:21,542 --> 01:15:26,011
- I looked over to the jurors,
and they were in shock.
1260
01:15:26,088 --> 01:15:29,139
- Two of the jurors
openly started to cry.
1261
01:15:29,150 --> 01:15:32,977
Maybe half a dozen people
sitting in the audience
1262
01:15:33,053 --> 01:15:36,146
just got up and left.
1263
01:15:41,663 --> 01:15:46,365
- The courtroom artist
ran out in tears.
1264
01:15:49,078 --> 01:15:51,787
- I just never heard
anything like that in my life.
1265
01:15:51,864 --> 01:15:54,248
I've never heard screams
like that.
1266
01:15:54,325 --> 01:15:57,251
I don't know.
It was bad.
1267
01:15:57,328 --> 01:15:59,753
- As the tape is being played,
1268
01:15:59,764 --> 01:16:04,475
Larry is basically looking down
at a transcript of the tape.
1269
01:16:04,552 --> 01:16:07,595
He's reading along with it.
People are crying.
1270
01:16:07,671 --> 01:16:09,179
People are leaving
the courtroom.
1271
01:16:09,190 --> 01:16:10,931
Everything around him
1272
01:16:11,008 --> 01:16:13,976
is kind of turning
into this chaotic scene,
1273
01:16:14,053 --> 01:16:16,979
and these screams
are piercing through the air.
1274
01:16:17,056 --> 01:16:21,191
He's dead-focused,
with no emotion on his face.
1275
01:16:21,268 --> 01:16:25,871
¶ ¶
1276
01:16:58,305 --> 01:17:03,442
- I can tell you that
for two years after the trial,
1277
01:17:03,519 --> 01:17:05,653
I would have
a recurring nightmare
1278
01:17:05,729 --> 01:17:07,363
of hearing the girls scream
1279
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:09,865
and running to try
and save them
1280
01:17:09,942 --> 01:17:11,992
and always getting there
too late,
1281
01:17:12,069 --> 01:17:14,995
seeing the results
of ice picks in the head
1282
01:17:15,072 --> 01:17:17,873
and fractured skulls
1283
01:17:17,884 --> 01:17:21,168
and nipples ripped off
and everything.
1284
01:17:21,245 --> 01:17:22,920
And...
1285
01:17:22,930 --> 01:17:25,381
you know,
I was very depressed.
1286
01:17:25,457 --> 01:17:27,007
I won't lie about it.
1287
01:17:27,084 --> 01:17:30,010
I didn't have to take
antidepressants
1288
01:17:30,087 --> 01:17:31,470
after the Manson trial,
1289
01:17:31,547 --> 01:17:33,972
but I did
after the Bittaker trial.
1290
01:17:34,049 --> 01:17:36,934
I'm sorry.
1291
01:17:36,944 --> 01:17:38,686
- I think when Bittaker
took the stand--
1292
01:17:38,762 --> 01:17:41,730
I think that 138 IQ of his
1293
01:17:41,807 --> 01:17:44,149
worked
in the opposite direction.
1294
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:46,777
I think he truly thought
that he could get up there
1295
01:17:46,854 --> 01:17:51,490
on the stand and convince
the jurors that it wasn't him.
1296
01:17:51,567 --> 01:17:53,242
- She's saying,
"Don't touch me."
1297
01:17:53,318 --> 01:17:54,868
She's not screaming.
She's not crying.
1298
01:17:54,945 --> 01:17:56,370
She's not sobbing.
1299
01:17:56,447 --> 01:17:58,580
- I asked him,
"Would you please describe
1300
01:17:58,657 --> 01:18:01,083
"for the ladies and gentlemen
of the jury
1301
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,970
what we hear on the tape
of Lynette Ledford?"
1302
01:18:05,047 --> 01:18:08,549
And he said,
"Oh, it was just pillow talk."
1303
01:18:08,625 --> 01:18:11,969
- Mr. Norris was interested
in having the sounds
1304
01:18:12,045 --> 01:18:14,555
of domination or fear.
1305
01:18:14,631 --> 01:18:17,516
I wanted some sounds of...
1306
01:18:17,593 --> 01:18:20,060
pillow talk or...
1307
01:18:20,137 --> 01:18:21,770
kind of dirty talk.
1308
01:18:21,847 --> 01:18:24,231
- That this was all a setup,
1309
01:18:24,308 --> 01:18:26,108
that it was just pillow talk.
1310
01:18:26,185 --> 01:18:28,736
She was playing along
and screaming,
1311
01:18:28,812 --> 01:18:31,655
and he had paid her to do that.
1312
01:18:31,732 --> 01:18:35,409
- I just told her I liked
hearing that type of thing,
1313
01:18:35,486 --> 01:18:37,995
and...
1314
01:18:38,071 --> 01:18:40,998
I hadn't--didn't have a tape
at that time of such a thing,
1315
01:18:41,008 --> 01:18:44,334
so I asked her
if she would make one for me.
1316
01:18:44,411 --> 01:18:46,971
- There was gasps
in the courtroom.
1317
01:18:47,047 --> 01:18:51,008
- And you almost felt
like laughing in his face.
1318
01:18:51,018 --> 01:18:54,803
And then when he broke down
and started crying,
1319
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:58,223
it was as if we were
watching this farce.
1320
01:18:58,300 --> 01:19:00,726
For him to all of a sudden
have crocodile tears
1321
01:19:00,803 --> 01:19:02,895
running down his face,
1322
01:19:02,971 --> 01:19:05,105
nobody bought it.
1323
01:19:05,182 --> 01:19:06,857
Nobody bought it.
1324
01:19:06,934 --> 01:19:09,234
He was the murderer.
He was the torturer.
1325
01:19:09,311 --> 01:19:10,870
He was the bad guy.
1326
01:19:10,946 --> 01:19:17,910
¶ ¶
1327
01:19:25,503 --> 01:19:27,252
¶ ¶
1328
01:19:27,329 --> 01:19:29,588
- It took the jury
of seven women and five men
1329
01:19:29,665 --> 01:19:32,090
less than 2 1/2 days
of deliberation
1330
01:19:32,167 --> 01:19:34,134
to convict Bittaker
of 26 counts,
1331
01:19:34,145 --> 01:19:37,438
including kidnapping,
rape, torture, and murder.
1332
01:19:37,515 --> 01:19:41,642
- Going for the death penalty
was only partially my decision.
1333
01:19:41,718 --> 01:19:44,520
It had to be okayed
by the District Attorney,
1334
01:19:44,596 --> 01:19:46,814
who was against
capital punishment,
1335
01:19:46,890 --> 01:19:51,235
but this case was so egregious
that he agreed
1336
01:19:51,311 --> 01:19:54,655
that we should seek
the death penalty.
1337
01:19:54,731 --> 01:19:58,575
If the death penalty
isn't proper in this case,
1338
01:19:58,652 --> 01:20:01,495
when would it ever be proper?
1339
01:20:01,572 --> 01:20:02,704
- The jury went in the room
1340
01:20:02,781 --> 01:20:04,748
and just looked around
and just nodded.
1341
01:20:04,825 --> 01:20:07,417
- Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker
should be put to death
1342
01:20:07,494 --> 01:20:10,295
by administration
of lethal gas.
1343
01:20:10,372 --> 01:20:13,507
- They were unanimous
within 60 seconds,
1344
01:20:13,584 --> 01:20:15,684
giving him the death penalty.
1345
01:20:17,254 --> 01:20:21,682
- In 1978, the voters
had overwhelmingly approved
1346
01:20:21,692 --> 01:20:23,192
the death penalty.
1347
01:20:23,269 --> 01:20:25,978
But you had a very liberal
Supreme Court at that time.
1348
01:20:26,054 --> 01:20:28,322
You had a liberal governor.
1349
01:20:28,399 --> 01:20:31,733
It was always thought maybe,
with the appeals process,
1350
01:20:31,744 --> 01:20:34,403
it wasn't going to happen.
1351
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:36,321
And it ultimately didn't.
1352
01:20:36,332 --> 01:20:39,375
- Bittaker sat on death row,
1353
01:20:39,451 --> 01:20:42,035
playing bridge and chess.
1354
01:20:42,112 --> 01:20:44,329
I was planning on going
up there at his execution
1355
01:20:44,406 --> 01:20:49,126
and holding up the photographs
of the five girls.
1356
01:20:49,202 --> 01:20:52,880
But I never got
that chance.
1357
01:20:52,956 --> 01:20:55,507
It was a terrible case
to live through.
1358
01:20:55,584 --> 01:20:58,802
I mean, Paul Bynum,
who was the investigator
1359
01:20:58,879 --> 01:21:00,804
who broke the case,
1360
01:21:00,881 --> 01:21:02,973
ended up committing suicide,
1361
01:21:03,050 --> 01:21:05,434
and he left a suicide note
1362
01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:08,854
saying that he felt
1363
01:21:08,931 --> 01:21:11,732
that Bittaker and Norris
would get out
1364
01:21:11,808 --> 01:21:15,619
and Bittaker
would come after him
1365
01:21:15,696 --> 01:21:18,739
and that if he killed himself
1366
01:21:18,815 --> 01:21:20,991
that maybe Bittaker would let
1367
01:21:21,068 --> 01:21:24,253
his wife and daughter live.
1368
01:21:26,531 --> 01:21:30,342
¶ ¶
1369
01:21:45,842 --> 01:21:48,685
- He called me and said
he had cancer.
1370
01:21:48,696 --> 01:21:50,312
It was serious,
and it was a ton
1371
01:21:50,389 --> 01:21:51,647
of different types of cancer
1372
01:21:51,723 --> 01:21:53,616
spreading throughout
his whole body.
1373
01:21:58,956 --> 01:22:00,681
- I had pulled out my notes,
1374
01:22:00,758 --> 01:22:02,950
and I said, "Let's do, like,
a little round of fact-check."
1375
01:22:03,026 --> 01:22:06,078
I was like, "The remains
of Cindy and Andrea
1376
01:22:06,154 --> 01:22:08,080
"have not been found
to this day.
1377
01:22:08,156 --> 01:22:10,248
Correct?"
He's like, "Yes."
1378
01:22:10,325 --> 01:22:11,926
And then I'm, like,
about to go to my next point,
1379
01:22:12,002 --> 01:22:14,294
and he just grabs the paper
and the pen,
1380
01:22:14,371 --> 01:22:17,422
and he starts drawing a map
of the San Gabriel Mountains
1381
01:22:17,499 --> 01:22:20,726
and saying Norris gave
the wrong location for Cindy.
1382
01:22:20,803 --> 01:22:24,513
It's about a mile off
from where she actually was.
1383
01:22:24,589 --> 01:22:26,732
Then he's like, "Oh, he's
so wrong about Andrea."
1384
01:22:26,809 --> 01:22:28,141
So he's drawing this,
1385
01:22:28,218 --> 01:22:31,311
and he's, like,
telling me as he's drawing it.
1386
01:22:31,388 --> 01:22:33,939
I messaged
Andrea Hall's sister,
1387
01:22:34,016 --> 01:22:36,817
and I said,
"I know where your sister is."
1388
01:22:36,893 --> 01:22:38,276
And she called me.
1389
01:22:38,353 --> 01:22:41,080
She's like,
"We've never given up hope."
1390
01:22:41,156 --> 01:22:43,490
And...
1391
01:22:43,567 --> 01:22:45,450
it was just--
1392
01:22:45,527 --> 01:22:49,964
how hard I fought to get
this information from him...
1393
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:51,832
And just
hearing her say, like...
1394
01:22:53,577 --> 01:22:57,087
Just hearing her say, you know,
"We've never given up hope,"
1395
01:22:57,098 --> 01:22:58,764
it just made it all worth it
1396
01:22:58,841 --> 01:23:01,717
to get this information
to the families.
1397
01:23:05,047 --> 01:23:07,806
- The area was never searched.
1398
01:23:07,883 --> 01:23:10,892
Stephen Kay said
they had searched near there
1399
01:23:10,969 --> 01:23:12,361
but not that area.
1400
01:23:12,438 --> 01:23:18,325
So my hope is to find
my sister and bring her home.
1401
01:23:20,020 --> 01:23:22,738
- Laura's approach to Larry
1402
01:23:22,748 --> 01:23:25,073
was certainly different
than my approach.
1403
01:23:25,150 --> 01:23:26,908
But it could
have been effective
1404
01:23:26,985 --> 01:23:28,368
on several different levels.
1405
01:23:28,445 --> 01:23:31,121
It sounds like he did
give her information
1406
01:23:31,198 --> 01:23:33,123
that he certainly
had not given to me.
1407
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,208
But now it becomes important
1408
01:23:35,285 --> 01:23:38,670
to be able to verify
what he did say to her.
1409
01:23:38,747 --> 01:23:43,258
¶ ¶
1410
01:23:43,335 --> 01:23:45,135
- One night
Bittaker had a series
1411
01:23:45,212 --> 01:23:46,887
of heart attacks
during the night,
1412
01:23:46,963 --> 01:23:48,221
and he had his heart medication
1413
01:23:48,298 --> 01:23:50,024
he was popping
all through the night.
1414
01:23:59,684 --> 01:24:01,251
He was dying.
1415
01:24:01,253 --> 01:24:05,080
He was a ball of emotions
and anxious and upset.
1416
01:24:15,659 --> 01:24:18,001
- And he was really, you know,
1417
01:24:18,078 --> 01:24:20,253
starting to process
what he had done.
1418
01:24:20,330 --> 01:24:23,340
I think that's when
it all started to hit him.
1419
01:24:35,821 --> 01:24:39,272
- Friday the 13th, 2019,
1420
01:24:39,349 --> 01:24:42,901
I had just returned from
California from seeing him.
1421
01:24:42,978 --> 01:24:45,362
I got a call
that he passed away.
1422
01:24:45,438 --> 01:24:46,872
I was sad.
1423
01:24:46,949 --> 01:24:49,991
You know, this is someone I've
talked to every single day.
1424
01:24:50,068 --> 01:24:53,370
We had a friendship. We did
have an authentic friendship.
1425
01:24:53,446 --> 01:24:56,298
It's been a profound,
profound experience.
1426
01:24:57,635 --> 01:24:59,918
2 1/2 months
right after Bittaker,
1427
01:24:59,995 --> 01:25:02,462
Roy Norris died
of natural causes.
1428
01:25:02,539 --> 01:25:04,172
So many people
called them soul mates,
1429
01:25:04,249 --> 01:25:05,916
and you got to wonder.
1430
01:25:05,918 --> 01:25:07,559
They died
like an old, married couple,
1431
01:25:07,636 --> 01:25:10,145
like they couldn't live
without each other.
1432
01:25:12,549 --> 01:25:14,724
- When I heard Bittaker
and Norris had died,
1433
01:25:14,801 --> 01:25:17,477
I was shocked but happy...
1434
01:25:17,554 --> 01:25:18,854
relieved.
1435
01:25:18,930 --> 01:25:21,565
I'm sorry that it took so long.
1436
01:25:21,641 --> 01:25:25,402
- My mother said, in order
for her to heal herself,
1437
01:25:25,478 --> 01:25:27,487
that she forgave
1438
01:25:27,498 --> 01:25:30,165
Lawrence Bittaker
and Roy Norris.
1439
01:25:31,651 --> 01:25:35,120
Personally, I can't do that.
I cannot forgive them.
1440
01:25:35,197 --> 01:25:38,540
- It's taken me my whole...
1441
01:25:38,617 --> 01:25:42,002
rest of my life
to deal with this...
1442
01:25:42,012 --> 01:25:45,714
that somebody...
1443
01:25:45,790 --> 01:25:48,341
that was kind to me,
1444
01:25:48,418 --> 01:25:50,853
that I trusted...
1445
01:25:54,099 --> 01:25:57,109
Was hurting young girls.
1446
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:01,146
- If anybody deserved
the death penalty,
1447
01:26:01,223 --> 01:26:03,148
it was Lawrence Bittaker.
1448
01:26:03,225 --> 01:26:05,901
I'm glad that he was kept
alive, though,
1449
01:26:05,977 --> 01:26:07,819
because we've learned so much,
I believe,
1450
01:26:07,896 --> 01:26:11,198
about psychopathy
and sadism from him.
1451
01:26:11,274 --> 01:26:15,076
It's a challenge
to try to find that humanity.
1452
01:26:15,153 --> 01:26:18,538
But I would definitely say
that I did see some human
1453
01:26:18,615 --> 01:26:22,542
in him in our time
and in our interviews together.
1454
01:26:22,553 --> 01:26:25,295
I do think
he was developing feelings,
1455
01:26:25,372 --> 01:26:28,381
'cause I don't think it was
just to manipulate me
1456
01:26:28,458 --> 01:26:30,842
or to tell me
what I wanted to hear.
1457
01:26:30,919 --> 01:26:35,731
- I don't believe a man
at that late stage of life
1458
01:26:35,807 --> 01:26:38,066
is gonna turn over a new leaf.
1459
01:26:38,143 --> 01:26:40,435
I believe that he tried
to convince Laura
1460
01:26:40,512 --> 01:26:44,147
that he had empathy because
he liked to have her visit.
1461
01:26:44,224 --> 01:26:46,066
It was companionship.
1462
01:26:46,142 --> 01:26:49,152
- He was actually proud
of being psychopathic.
1463
01:26:49,229 --> 01:26:52,822
He was proud
of not being controlled
1464
01:26:52,833 --> 01:26:54,699
by the kinds of emotions
1465
01:26:54,776 --> 01:26:57,077
that non-psychopathic
people have.
1466
01:26:57,153 --> 01:27:00,872
Do I think he just shredded
his psychopathy
1467
01:27:00,949 --> 01:27:03,917
and became a feeling,
loving human being?
1468
01:27:03,994 --> 01:27:06,294
Based on my experience,
my background, and training,
1469
01:27:06,371 --> 01:27:08,046
I do not.
1470
01:27:08,123 --> 01:27:09,339
- A lot of people
might be like,
1471
01:27:09,350 --> 01:27:10,999
"He doesn't deserve kindness.
1472
01:27:11,075 --> 01:27:13,677
He doesn't deserve empathy
from anybody," you know.
1473
01:27:13,753 --> 01:27:17,264
And that's fine for people
to have that perception.
1474
01:27:17,340 --> 01:27:20,183
I just know that
I'm gonna live my life
1475
01:27:20,260 --> 01:27:22,269
with empathy and compassion
for everyone,
1476
01:27:22,279 --> 01:27:25,948
and I'm gonna have no regrets
at the end of my life.
107284
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.