Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,520
I can still remember laying in my bed,
2
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,960
my little night-light on,
crying over this.
3
00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,160
I was so overwhelmed by this story.
4
00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,640
Misha Defonseca checked every single box
5
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,680
for the type of woman that we looked for
to interview on Exceptional Women.
6
00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:58,920
I'll just take a beat and then turn.
7
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,640
I got you. Okay.
8
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:01,960
Stand by.
9
00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,920
Her story originated in Belgium,
10
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,560
but she was living
in Millis, Massachusetts,
11
00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,440
20 miles away from the radio station.
12
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,120
You wanna give me a countdown?
13
00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,080
Three, two, one.
14
00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,840
♪ Magic 106.7... ♪
15
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,640
Sometimes a story is so astonishing
16
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,160
it seems unbelievable.
17
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,240
Sometimes the sadness one person feels
is so big, it's overpowering.
18
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,920
And sometimes courage is so monumental,
it humbles you.
19
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:49,240
Back in the late '80s,
we had been living in Millis for 37 years.
20
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,680
Pretty much everybody knew everybody.
21
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:53,920
And we had new neighbors.
22
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,200
They were a couple from Belgium,
Maurice and Misha.
23
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,320
There's a saying in Millis,
"Small town, big family."
24
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,800
It's a small-knit community,
and we became friends.
25
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:11,720
You want a little kiss?
26
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,320
Misha was a very nice person.
Very friendly, um, caring.
27
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,600
I had never met anybody that had
a relationship with animals as did Misha.
28
00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:27,320
There were many, many cats.
29
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,720
Eccentric personality, for sure.
30
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,200
I was there one day having tea,
31
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,640
and she told me about her life
during the war and so forth.
32
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,080
She went into some detail.
33
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,160
Let me bring you into
the life of a little girl named Misha.
34
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,440
She was waiting for her father
to pick her up from school one day,
35
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:50,920
and he never came.
36
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,880
My mouth just dropped on the floor.
37
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,840
Instead a woman tapped her
on the shoulder and said, "Come with me."
38
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,640
This little girl was taken into a home
with a family she didn't know.
39
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,160
She was given a new name
and different clothes.
40
00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:15,280
When she was only seven years old,
41
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,120
she walked alone for years,
42
00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,120
through Nazi-occupied countries,
across thousands of miles,
43
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,240
in search of her deported parents.
44
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,760
Misha is now a grown-up Jewish woman
45
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,840
living in the Boston area.
She's a Holocaust survivor.
46
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,480
And she's here
to tell her astonishing story
47
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,800
of courage and survival.
48
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,080
I think about my parents every day.
49
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,600
My mother's name was Gerusha,
50
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,080
and my father, Robert.
51
00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,400
Reuven in Hebrew.
52
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:00,880
But our surname,
53
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:03,840
I don't think I ever knew.
54
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,080
I never discovered
what became of my parents.
55
00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,160
Not where they went or how they died.
56
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,760
To this day, I do not know.
57
00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,640
Settle, everybody, please.
58
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,080
So, Misha,
tell me the story of the first time
59
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,280
you spoke about your experiences.
60
00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:43,680
One day...
61
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:46,720
in a synagogue...
62
00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,320
on the occasion of Yom HaShoah,
the day of remembrance...
63
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,680
I was asked to talk about me and my story.
64
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,600
My husband convinced me to do it,
65
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,480
telling me it would free me.
66
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,120
When I went up to the bimah,
67
00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,160
I suddenly realized that
I was going to speak for the first time.
68
00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,520
I burst into tears.
69
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,480
And slowly, snatches, I began to tell.
70
00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,240
I was cold and I had to keep going
71
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,000
one step at a time.
72
00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,040
That is survival.
73
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,080
You have to go forward
74
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:41,400
one step at a time.
75
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,800
I was, like, mesmerized.
76
00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,600
People never knew about her
being a Holocaust survivor.
77
00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:56,600
I had tears in my eyes.
78
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,760
She was hungry. She was cold.
79
00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:01,080
She was lonely. She wanted her parents.
80
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,400
How did this person survive?
81
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,800
I told myself,
82
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,280
"They think I'm alive."
83
00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,400
"If they think I'm alive,
84
00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,080
I can't let them down."
85
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,040
"So I have to keep going."
86
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,840
You could've heard a pin drop.
87
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,680
Everybody there was just
completely entranced with her story.
88
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,400
I never expected that
I was gonna hear what I heard.
89
00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:36,480
When Misha was seven years old,
her parents were arrested by the Nazis,
90
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,920
and she was told
that they had been deported.
91
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,120
She was placed in the care
of a Catholic family
92
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:45,960
called de Wael.
93
00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:47,840
So it was a safe place for her.
94
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,400
They gave her a new identity,
Monique de Wael.
95
00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,160
The deception saved her.
96
00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,320
But she felt very alienated there.
97
00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,880
I ended up in a family
that didn't love me.
98
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:04,680
That's the least you could say.
99
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,960
They hated me there.
They would call me worthless.
100
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,800
There was a grandfather in that
foster family who was kindly to her.
101
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,400
He told me
my parents were in Germany.
102
00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,480
He showed me with a compass
that it was in the east.
103
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,040
So Germany didn't seem that far.
104
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,840
At that point,
Misha made a tremendous decision.
105
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,800
It turned her whole life upside down.
106
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,000
She decided, at the age of seven,
107
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,440
she was going to walk to Germany
to find her parents.
108
00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,600
So she took her little compass
and took some supplies
109
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,320
and started heading east.
110
00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,520
I know exactly what I need.
111
00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:03,160
I need the basic.
112
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,680
I need food, something to drink,
113
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,560
to have a knife for protection.
114
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,840
The first night I slept below a bridge.
115
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,880
It was not far from home.
116
00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,800
It was absolutely naive
when I think about it today.
117
00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:36,440
On the map, Belgium seemed really small,
and Germany was really close.
118
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,040
But if I went back, what would I find?
119
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,320
Nothing was waiting for me back there.
120
00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:50,560
And I had the idea to find my parents.
121
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,520
So I had to finish it.
122
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,360
Each time I approach a village,
I see devastation.
123
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,800
What she experienced as a child,
124
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,800
having to hide from the Nazis,
125
00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,600
being alone in the forest,
126
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,320
having to steal food,
127
00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,760
freezing temperatures...
128
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,880
She had had a nightmare childhood.
129
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,360
She had been traumatized by this.
130
00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:32,840
Killing...
131
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,080
I saw killing.
132
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:40,600
The dead people.
133
00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,680
It was really desperate.
134
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,320
I dreamed of seeing my parents.
135
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,760
So I stayed deeply in the woods
away from the war.
136
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,200
When she was in the woods,
137
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,280
she was away from people
being sent to concentration camps.
138
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,240
She was away from the horror
that was happening in the cities.
139
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,960
She was with birds and flowers.
140
00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,400
She said that's what saved her.
141
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,400
I completely gave in to the wildlife.
142
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,440
I saw this wonderful world with animals...
143
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,000
in peace,
144
00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:42,400
living normally,
145
00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,600
eating just what they need,
146
00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:47,160
not killing more than they need.
147
00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:51,920
The balance was so... just right.
148
00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,120
With animals I didn't need any words.
149
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,680
We were near each other
150
00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,120
in silence
151
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,640
and understood without words.
152
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,200
I was thinking,
"This would make a fascinating book."
153
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:16,720
It was the early '90s.
154
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,360
I had a small publishing company.
155
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:20,960
When I say small, I mean tiny.
156
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,280
And I was looking around
for a new project.
157
00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,920
I was the first one
that came along and said,
158
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,080
"Could we make this even more public?"
159
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,000
"Can we take this to another level?"
160
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,320
"I could probably
make something big out of this."
161
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,680
"There's a market for this story."
162
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,880
Because it had an amazing twist.
163
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,680
I remember I had just been caught
by a farmer
164
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,320
who saw me stealing food from his farm.
165
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,480
I run away, full of fear.
166
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,800
And he ran after me.
167
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,120
When you run for your life,
you run very hard.
168
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:04,600
And suddenly,
169
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,320
I had the impression
that somebody was watching me.
170
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,600
I turn around and...
171
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,360
And I see this magnificent animal.
172
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,440
To me, it was like a huge dog.
173
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,280
The wolf seemed alone
and I needed a companion.
174
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,040
It was a beautiful gray she-wolf.
175
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,080
I look in my bag for something to eat,
176
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,280
and I give a piece to the wolf.
177
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:43,840
And she doesn't take.
178
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,400
It takes a lot of time,
179
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,480
but after a while,
we would walk in parallel.
180
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,920
I was able to see its generosity...
181
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,760
to appreciate the strength it had.
182
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,960
I was able to live with it.
183
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,880
She was like a mother to me.
184
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,880
Much later, it was a whole pack of wolves.
185
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,280
I don't know how long I was with them.
186
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,680
They accepted me and protected me.
187
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,360
That was an amazing twist in her story.
188
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,560
It was like, "Who ever hears of that?"
189
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,280
"Wow, this is quite a story."
190
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,800
Misha was very different
from most people I'd ever met.
191
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,320
My first impression was,
192
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,080
"She probably should've been an animal."
193
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,920
"Or her spirit is an animal."
194
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:09,760
She spoke about being accepted by the pack
but being treated as a low-ranking member
195
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,320
and that she had to exhibit
submissive, low-ranking behavior
196
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,640
in order to, uh... to be with them.
197
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,120
Misha said the alpha male
typically would eat first.
198
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,240
The others would lay around the carcass
waiting for their turn.
199
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,720
They would leave little scraps,
200
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,800
sort of in close proximity
to where she was
201
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,560
when they were finished.
202
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,480
Wolves eat ten kilos in one meal.
203
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,560
The leftovers
were more than enough for me.
204
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:55,720
Get it.
205
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,840
Go get your dinner. It's right there.
206
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,640
We became very good friends.
207
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,040
You got it.
208
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,200
- You got it. Good girl!
- She visited multiple times.
209
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,560
She would hand-feed them
the pieces of meat.
210
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,480
I think they sensed in Misha
211
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,480
that she was a friend,
as opposed to a foe.
212
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,520
She had such a sense of being with them,
213
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,200
that it's like she belonged in there.
214
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,040
I had no reason to stop walking.
215
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,680
It's what I did every day.
216
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,720
Day after day, month after month.
217
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,200
I have always the hope to find my parents,
218
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,280
because I figure,
"I have survived till now,
219
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,200
and if I have survived as a child,
my parents must have survived."
220
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,880
And this belief makes me continue.
221
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,840
I thought,
this is a moral narrative.
222
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,360
It's the battle between good and evil,
the innocent child and the evil Nazis.
223
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,520
And the child survived.
224
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,120
It had mythic qualities to it.
225
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,200
And it could take my publishing company,
Mount Ivy Press,
226
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,760
from a little local happening
227
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,760
to a worldwide happening.
228
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,000
So I asked Misha if she would be
interested in publishing her stories.
229
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,000
I brought it up very tentatively.
230
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,320
With everything I went through,
231
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,680
I'd learned to mistrust people.
232
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,920
I don't think
she was terribly impressed with me,
233
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,080
and there was no reason she should be.
234
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,200
The kind of book I had published
before was a legal financial book,
235
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:01,880
not exactly her kind of thing.
236
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,520
For more than two years I refused,
237
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,560
but my community and my friends
said to me, "Misha, do it."
238
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,200
"For future generations."
239
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,600
I found myself in hell again.
240
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,480
It was a painful process,
241
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,880
but it was as if she was compelled
to tell her story.
242
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,080
As if it was some kind of a catharsis.
243
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:44,760
Everybody was stepping up.
244
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,160
All the foreign publishers,
one after another, after another.
245
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,120
We were selling the translation rights
all over the world.
246
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,040
My agent came back from California,
247
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,480
and said, "Disney wants this.
Period. They want this."
248
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,600
This was a case of a hot property.
249
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,080
When the book was published
in April 1997,
250
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,800
I said, "Let's see
if we can get Oprah to do this."
251
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,640
Okay, this is one of my all-time
favorite moments I'm having on television.
252
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,840
At that time,
Oprah had her book club.
253
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,040
If you were one of Oprah's books,
254
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,720
you had a guaranteed sale
of a million books.
255
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,760
It was like... That was the jackpot.
256
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,080
Then we'll meet back here in a month,
and we'll talk...
257
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,040
And they said,
"We're interested."
258
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:40,960
I love it!
259
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,680
So that's a big, big, big deal.
260
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,960
And we were beginning to say,
261
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,000
"We are heading into
a monster bestseller here."
262
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,640
Jane Daniel told me that Oprah
was considering doing the Misha story,
263
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,400
and could they send a production crew here
to film Misha in with a wolf.
264
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,040
So, I said, "Yes, of course."
265
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,240
I told Misha
before we went into the enclosure,
266
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,880
this was an adult wolf,
he was a very big boy.
267
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,480
His name was Petro.
268
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,680
Nobody went in but Misha.
269
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,800
The sound man had his boom over the fence.
He didn't go in.
270
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,360
So, Misha squatted down,
and she's feeding this one wolf cheese.
271
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,600
And the wolf is very friendly.
272
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,080
Everything's going fine.
273
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,960
And then the wolf decides
to put his paws on her shoulders.
274
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,600
Petro jumped up
on her shoulders,
275
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,120
and he was much taller than she.
276
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,600
And then all of a sudden, very quickly,
the wolf opened his mouth...
277
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,200
...and put her whole head in his mouth.
278
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:10,040
Very gently.
279
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:12,680
Fangs on both temples.
280
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,000
I felt no fear.
281
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,360
Nobody talked about
the big bad wolf to me, you know.
282
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,720
The wolf held her head for a minute.
283
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,760
We've stopped breathing.
284
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,240
Oprah's producer with her eyes like...
285
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,400
And then
just as fast as it happened,
286
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,000
it was over.
287
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,080
And at that point,
Misha rears back, lets out a big howl.
288
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,840
I get goosebumps telling this story.
289
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,600
From the back,
way back in the back of the pen,
290
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:47,640
we hear...
291
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:52,200
...an "awoo" coming back.
292
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,360
When she howled,
they immediately howled back.
293
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,720
There it was. You could see.
294
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,960
There's the connection
between the human and the wolf.
295
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,520
I saw it, you know. It was amazing.
It was a shocking moment.
296
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,280
So, they had got a lot
of really interesting wolf footage,
297
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,600
and I thought,
"This is gonna make a great Oprah show."
298
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,400
The next step was that she was to go
to Chicago for the studio portion.
299
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,080
Things were going
swimmingly well.
300
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,680
And then, I began to see some tension
301
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,720
between Misha and Jane.
302
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,080
It wasn't very pleasant as time went on.
303
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,280
The book wasn't selling very well,
304
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,520
so Misha and Maurice, her husband,
were having financial difficulties.
305
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,200
So then she started selling things,
from her house.
306
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:56,480
And, um...
307
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,400
I felt bad
that they were losing everything.
308
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,200
She kept saying,
"I have no money. I have nothing."
309
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,480
"Jane Daniel's no good."
310
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,960
I felt saddened,
311
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,880
but then Misha was sitting at my table
one night and said to me
312
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,400
she didn't wanna go on Oprah Winfrey.
313
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,440
I said, "Gee, Misha,
I don't understand that."
314
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,400
All of a sudden,
Misha's not cooperative,
315
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,520
doesn't return phone calls,
has one objection after another.
316
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,840
She doesn't wanna go, it's inconvenient,
317
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,640
she needs somebody
to take care of her animals at home.
318
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,440
Jane made me so mad,
so insecure.
319
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,960
My husband said many times to her,
320
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,440
"With a survivor,
you don't use that kind of attitude."
321
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,560
Come on. It's Oprah.
322
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,160
You find a dog-sitter
or a pet-sitter or whatever.
323
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,800
You make yourself available.
324
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:03,880
"No."
325
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,800
Well, the memory,
the bad memory, came back.
326
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,960
I have a nightmare. I was very anxious.
327
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,720
We tried everything.
328
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,040
I wrote her notes and said,
"This is a million sales."
329
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,080
"No. No. No."
330
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,080
I thought, "This is crazy."
331
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,160
"Any other author would be
falling all over themselves to do this."
332
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,360
It never happened.
333
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,680
A year after the book came out,
334
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,000
there's a knock on the door,
and I'm handed a big package.
335
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,200
It's Misha filing a lawsuit against me.
336
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,360
It's like, "Oh, my God."
And at that point, everything stopped.
337
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,480
No other country
wanted to do business with us.
338
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,800
We had a lawsuit attached to this project.
339
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,240
The first time I met Misha,
340
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,200
I felt very compelled
by the circumstances of the case.
341
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:16,640
It was clear to me
342
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:23,160
that several things had, um, been done
that were improper, illegal, fraudulent.
343
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,920
Misha was asking for the return
of the copyright to her name
344
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,160
and for all of the royalties
that she was due for book sales.
345
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,440
Jane Daniel saw in my life a gold mine,
346
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,320
and she took advantage of it.
347
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,920
There was so much anger and bitterness
348
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,600
between the parties
by the time that I got involved,
349
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,320
there was not much room for negotiation.
350
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,760
And it was clear
we were gonna be going to trial.
351
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,360
It wasn't gonna settle out of court.
352
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,400
The sense in the courtroom
was a lot of drama.
353
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,000
The atmosphere was pretty tense.
354
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,400
And then, of course, the money comes up.
355
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,160
We found that Jane Daniel had
set up a company in the Turks and Caicos,
356
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,080
so that royalties that came from overseas
357
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,120
went directly into her account
and never paid royalties on them.
358
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,320
We had documentation.
359
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,960
We had royalty statements
to show that she was paid.
360
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,360
We had canceled checks
that showed that she was paid.
361
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,680
So everything she was saying,
we had documentation to refute.
362
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,360
But she could speak no falsehood.
363
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,240
You know, "Where's the money?"
And I think the jury was very sympathetic.
364
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,520
The jury was riveted.
365
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,360
In front of you is a person
who'd survived the Holocaust as a child
366
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,080
and written a memoir about it.
367
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,960
They were engaged
and absolutely enthralled by this story.
368
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,480
Misha was a good witness.
369
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,080
All what I lived is on the manuscript,
370
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,560
because it's my life.
371
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,880
It just made me look like a monster.
372
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,600
And I thought, "This is not going well."
373
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,560
Jane was always fighting.
She enforced what she want.
374
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,600
It was a ten-day trial,
and it was grueling.
375
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,400
The judge asks the jury,
"How do you find on count one?"
376
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,760
The jury found unanimously for Misha
on all counts.
377
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:56,720
I mean, ultimately, they came in
with a massive judgment against me.
378
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,480
It was kind of mind-boggling
to hear the number.
379
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,480
22.5 million.
380
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,120
So it was a very large verdict.
381
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,120
I am an optimistic person,
but that hit me like a ton of bricks.
382
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,440
I was blown away.
383
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,400
I said, "Are you kidding me?"
384
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,000
The money damages
against Jane Daniel
385
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,280
were largely based
on Jane Daniel's testimony.
386
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,920
This was gonna be on Oprah,
there was some contract with Disney.
387
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,680
There were things
that Jane Daniel testified to
388
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,440
to really elevate the level of damages
389
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,680
well beyond what would seem
supportable for a book like this.
390
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,360
So everybody paid attention.
391
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,920
People love a big verdict.
392
00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:56,920
Disney had fallen through.
Oprah had fallen through.
393
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,720
There were no millions of dollars.
394
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,040
It's an untenable position to be in.
395
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,880
A cruel exploiter
of an innocent Holocaust survivor.
396
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,040
You know,
your world falls apart at that point.
397
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,360
After the trial,
398
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,640
this was the lowest point in my life.
399
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,640
I ended up going into therapy
and being diagnosed with PTSD.
400
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,480
And I had horrible insomnia.
401
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,080
I was hanging on by my fingernails.
402
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,440
My publishing company was gone.
403
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,520
The copyright was taken away from me.
404
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,960
I mean, I was destroyed at that point.
405
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,000
I ended up doing a post-mortem
on what had happened,
406
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,480
looking at it piece by piece by piece.
407
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,680
I was in my lawyer's office
going through old records and documents.
408
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,560
I had no idea what I was gonna find.
409
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,760
I open a file,
and it's Misha's bank account.
410
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,360
And it's in Misha's writing,
and it's her signature card.
411
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,080
And on there, it says...
412
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,120
...date and place of birth,
filled in in Misha's hand,
413
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:15,560
and mother's maiden name.
414
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,120
All of a sudden, I suddenly get a flash.
415
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,400
She knows who she is.
416
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,960
She knows where she was born.
417
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,800
She knows who her mother was.
418
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,160
This was stuff she supposedly didn't know.
She lost her identity in the war.
419
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,160
This doesn't add up.
420
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,680
Clearly, she knew a lot more
about who she was
421
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,800
than what she had told me.
422
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,640
What else might not be true?
423
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,440
I had been owned by courts and lawyers.
424
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,720
My life had been turned upside down.
425
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,080
I wanted my life back.
426
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,040
If I can prove that she's not
who she's been saying she is,
427
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,720
I can overturn this judgment.
428
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,120
It was the dead of winter.
The days were short.
429
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,120
I was standing in my kitchen,
430
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,600
and I thought, "I have to do something.
I have to do something."
431
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,920
I started recalling
all the things that had happened.
432
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,160
How I had met her, what had happened then,
what happened this...
433
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,800
How did the lawsuit come about?
434
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,520
And then I thought,
435
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,760
"I'll write a book about the case.
I'll do it as a blog."
436
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,040
I was writing my memoir of her memoir.
437
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,880
And maybe somebody will read it.
438
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,320
Talk about a long shot.
439
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,560
The next day, I get up,
440
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,280
I turn on my computer,
and there's an e-mail.
441
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,240
And the e-mail says...
442
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,280
"I think I might be able to help find out
443
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,160
what's the real story."
444
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,600
I did a timeline of Misha
from a variety of photographs.
445
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,160
First from the book,
446
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,120
and then from other images
on the Internet.
447
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,880
So I could get a sense of her life.
448
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,680
I wanted to know who she was.
449
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,680
Who is this person
that has just ruined my life?
450
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,160
Each photograph I tried to analyze
451
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,320
and see what kind of information
I could squeeze out of it.
452
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,360
The first clue was
Misha claims she was seven years old
453
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,760
when she was taken in
by this foster family.
454
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,800
In the American book
there was a series
455
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,160
of what they call polyphoto images.
456
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,080
And the polyphotos were taken
at that time.
457
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,760
And I looked at the photos,
and I said,
458
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,360
"No, this doesn't look like a 7-year-old."
459
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,920
"This looks like a toddler,
a three or four-year-old."
460
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,280
Big bow in her hair,
frilly clothes and chubby, chubby cheeks.
461
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,040
Something's wrong.
462
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,720
The next photograph I looked at
463
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:33,000
was a picture who Misha said was
her foster grandfather and grandmother.
464
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,320
According to the narrative,
he's a rustic farm man.
465
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,400
I did a close-up of the hands
of Grandfather, which were manicured.
466
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,800
Did not look like a farm person's hands.
467
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,040
And he had a ring on one of his fingers.
468
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,360
Yeah, it was not the kind of thing
a farmer would wear.
469
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,680
And then the little dog
on Grandmother's lap,
470
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,960
that looks like a little house dog,
not a farm dog.
471
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,080
So I thought, "Gee, that's strange."
472
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,880
And that's when I started comparing
the French and the American book.
473
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,160
I was looking at names
and places and dates.
474
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,720
That was the big red flag.
475
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,680
She called me and she said,
476
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,960
"Do you notice that Misha's name
that she used in the French book
477
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,600
is different from the name
she used in the American book?"
478
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,360
In the American book,
the name that she was given
479
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,480
by the foster family that took her in
was de Wael.
480
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,720
What Sharon noticed immediately is
the French book,
481
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,520
the foster family gave her
the name Valle, V-A-L-L-E.
482
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,840
Why would you have two different names?
483
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,480
There's too many discrepancies,
484
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,120
between the name changes,
the pictures, and so on.
485
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,880
Fishy, yep. Definitely seemed fishy.
486
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,040
Take a drink if you want.
Just relax.
487
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,560
I know it's a nerve-wracking thing.
488
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,160
If her story were true
and I were doubting it...
489
00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:13,680
there's something particularly
490
00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:15,720
vicious
491
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:17,320
to
492
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,960
doubt somebody who's telling the truth
493
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:21,880
about something awful
that happened to them
494
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,240
and the callousness that it takes to say,
"I don't believe you."
495
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,680
And the harm you can cause by doing that.
496
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:30,520
That was in my mind.
497
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,920
On the other hand,
what was also in my mind is,
498
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,680
"So many discrepancies."
499
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,040
Why would you be saying things
that aren't true, unless you're crazy?
500
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,160
Maybe she's so traumatized
that she's just lost her grip on reality.
501
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,400
How much did that explain? I didn't know.
502
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,520
I needed a lot of answers at that point.
503
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,240
We need boots on the ground in Belgium.
504
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,640
Sharon had a connection
with a Belgian genealogist
505
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:08,720
who herself was a Holocaust survivor.
506
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,280
As it turns out,
507
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,680
she grew up in the same area
that Misha claims to have lived in.
508
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,960
During the war,
I myself was a hidden child.
509
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,600
I went to a Catholic school,
510
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:43,280
and I became a very good
little Belgian, Catholic girl.
511
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,760
I have no recollection
of anybody telling me
512
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,160
what happened to my parents.
513
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,560
I have no memory at all.
514
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:08,840
I was about 40 and went through
a sort of terrible breakdown...
515
00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:17,160
which led me to find
what happened to me, in fact,
516
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,960
and to my parents and my family.
517
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,800
And I started to make research.
518
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:32,600
I found out my father was deported
to Auschwitz in September '42.
519
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,080
My mother was arrested
in October in Brussels
520
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,600
and deported to Auschwitz.
521
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,200
I was told that they didn't come back.
522
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,360
So, I went by car to Auschwitz.
523
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,240
I saw the camp...
524
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,440
where there was not a single soul.
525
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,480
The chamber...
The gas chambers were exploded.
526
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,840
I found some candles,
what we call Jahrzeit,
527
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:47,080
still burning in the rubbles
of some of the gas chambers.
528
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,160
Before leaving,
529
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:57,840
I had a Star of David done
in dried flowers.
530
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,960
I just didn't know...
531
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,840
where to put it.
532
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,920
I couldn't put it at the monument.
533
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,440
So, finally, I chose the...
534
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,560
the little pond.
535
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,080
It floated there.
536
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,240
And I think that was the time that I...
537
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,000
Sorry.
538
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,040
Sorry.
539
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,960
...that I put my parents to rest.
540
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,960
My parents, my grandmother, my cousin.
541
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040
Evelyne is herself
a Holocaust survivor
542
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,080
whose story was very much like Misha's.
543
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,120
So she was the perfect person
to find what was going on.
544
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,160
In the French book,
the foster family had a surname of Valle.
545
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:30,520
And in the American book
the foster family's surname was de Wael.
546
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,280
To reconcile the name changes,
547
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,480
Evelyne went through the city directories
548
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,760
for the 1930s, 1940s.
549
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,240
I came at least three days
550
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,600
searching for the de Waels and the Valles.
551
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,640
The name Valle was not in the phone books.
552
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,000
The Valle name didn't exist.
553
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,840
De Wael, yes.
554
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,640
There were many de Wael.
Many, many, many, many.
555
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,560
So, now you start to think,
556
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,200
the French book
was distributed in Belgium,
557
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,640
and if something about Misha's story
is not true,
558
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:34,160
it would be important for her not to put
her real name in that French book.
559
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,040
There would be somebody over there
560
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,360
who would say,
"I knew the de Wael family."
561
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,400
"I know whether or not she was around,
or did she disappear during the war."
562
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,240
The fact that she changed
the name in France and Belgium
563
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,680
from de Wael to Valle,
564
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,600
suggests to me
that she's trying to hide something.
565
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,560
Sharon and I
both looked at this and said,
566
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,760
"Something's really wrong
with this story."
567
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,600
So, at this point, the book had been
taken over by a French publisher,
568
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,280
who had published it in 20 languages.
569
00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:19,600
It was a huge bestseller all over Europe.
570
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,840
She was speaking to schoolchildren
all over the French-speaking world.
571
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,240
In 2005,
572
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,680
I was planning on creating
573
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,280
as a professor of psychology
574
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,840
a project on the story of this young child
575
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,640
who experienced all these adventures.
576
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:52,040
The project became a huge,
magnificent exhibition.
577
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,880
Then we have the idea
578
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,320
to try and bring her to Belgium.
579
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,480
We watched her get out of the train.
580
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,800
It was a fascinating sight.
581
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,800
She was dressed in blue...
582
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,120
like a shining canary
583
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,920
with all its colors...
584
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,480
...with two,
585
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,960
no, three big suitcases!
586
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,120
She came towards me
587
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,680
all radiant and beaming.
588
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,760
Right away, she exhibits
589
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,400
a very dynamic character,
590
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,000
very welcoming and very generous.
591
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:53,000
When Misha entered the exhibition,
592
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:54,600
she collapsed.
593
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,800
I was not warned of this,
594
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,200
so when I visited the exhibition,
595
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,480
I burst into tears
596
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,480
because it touched me very deeply.
597
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,960
She was so delighted to be there.
598
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,240
But on the other hand,
599
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,440
we saw the sadness come out
600
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,640
and the tears, the tears, the tears.
601
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,000
It was very emotional.
602
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,280
We were all
really traumatized by her story
603
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,080
and we all wanted to give
604
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,520
a bit of joy to this woman
605
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,760
by showing our creativity
606
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,920
and our courage, too,
607
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:41,960
to show what we felt.
608
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,480
In the book,
Misha says that her parents
609
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,440
were arrested together
by the Nazis and deported.
610
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,600
Although she didn't know their surname,
611
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,520
their first names were Reuven and Gerusha.
612
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,360
So, the next step was, Sharon said,
613
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,680
"I have access
to the Nazi records of deportations."
614
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,600
"Well, I will take those two names
615
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,120
and see if there are two people
who were deported
616
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,480
more or less simultaneously
with those names."
617
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,800
When we examined
the deportation lists,
618
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,680
they were not found as a husband and wife.
619
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,000
"I missed my parents terribly."
620
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,000
"My face was covered in mud."
621
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,120
"I screamed...
622
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,640
some nights, from the cold."
623
00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:36,160
"Later on,
624
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:37,920
I got a second chance."
625
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,680
"I survived because I trusted no one."
626
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,560
"Because I avoided contact with humans."
627
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,960
During the war,
the Jewish Defence Committee
628
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,760
had made lists of hidden Jewish children
629
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,800
with the name of their rescuer
and the name of their parents.
630
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,440
These lists are now in the archives
at the War Victims Services.
631
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,160
It was a real, real, real danger
632
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:26,320
that these lists
would be taken by the Nazis.
633
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,400
Children would be found,
634
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,360
and be, uh, killed.
635
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,720
But it was quite clever.
636
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,400
There were four different booklets.
637
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,400
You needed all four to find the child.
638
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,080
But all four of them
were in different places.
639
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,640
If any Nazi found a single booklet,
640
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,920
they would not be able to trace the child,
641
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,120
but at the end of the war,
642
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,960
with the four different booklets,
643
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,760
there would've been a way to find
whose child it was.
644
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,440
And so I searched for Misha's parents.
645
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,520
No names of the parents.
646
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:25,880
So, I knew there
that there was something wrong.
647
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,360
And in the lists of hidden children,
648
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,920
they didn't have "Misha,"
and they didn't have "de Wael,"
649
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,920
that is for sure.
650
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,680
She was not mentioned at all.
651
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,320
Misha's story
652
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,320
had a snowball effect.
653
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,160
Already millions of books
654
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:56,240
had been sold.
655
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,080
And thereafter,
656
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:00,400
we had to work
657
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,520
to prepare the conferences
658
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,200
and get her to them.
659
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,880
So, we were always together.
660
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,680
At that time, she would often
661
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,000
come back to our home.
662
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:18,240
She would eat with us.
663
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,600
She was like a member of the family.
664
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,800
We had dozens of events.
665
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,080
Of course, we took her to them.
666
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,240
She was always welcomed
667
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,800
by the organizers
668
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,720
and always with a lot
of kindness and friendliness.
669
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,440
Everyone left the conferences
670
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,320
dazzled by this character.
671
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,840
I was stuck, really.
672
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,440
No findings but no proof.
673
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:13,960
No proof.
674
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:22,120
So that was the point where I thought
that she could've been undocumented.
675
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,480
Some children were hidden
676
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,080
but not necessarily through organization.
677
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,400
As extraordinary as her story was,
678
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,520
I had to keep in mind
679
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:40,160
that she might have been
a Jewish hidden child.
680
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,960
We are going to talk
about this strange and wonderful story.
681
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:48,920
Misha Defonseca is with us. Hello.
682
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:49,840
Hello.
683
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,000
Thank you for coming to see us
to tell us about this story.
684
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,520
Now the stakes go up.
I start worrying.
685
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,640
I will feel a lot of guilt,
if this is true,
686
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:02,320
that I am digging into her past.
687
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:04,760
And what if it is true?
688
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,800
Misha Defonseca
is a witness of the Holocaust.
689
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:08,920
Hello.
690
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,360
How unfair to challenge her.
691
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,640
And even if it's mostly true
but not quite true,
692
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:20,320
how unfair to disrespect
what she's been through.
693
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,160
You have to go through all the tragedy
694
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,720
and all the horrors.
695
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,000
It's very painful.
696
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:32,040
I felt like I had been cast in a play
that I didn't audition for.
697
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,800
I didn't want the part.
I didn't wanna be in the play.
698
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,520
I have known hatred
699
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,360
and I have known the rage to kill
700
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,160
because it's my life or his.
701
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,760
It was devouring me.
702
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,920
Personally...
703
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,000
I live it every day.
704
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,840
This had taken over my own life.
705
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,880
I think about my parents
every day, and for me,
706
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,240
the Holocaust is every day.
The memory stays with you every day.
707
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,000
But I'd had this judgment hanging
over my head for quite a while now.
708
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:04,800
I had lost the appeal.
709
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,280
I was looking at the possibility
of being completely wiped out.
710
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,840
So it was starting to get
pretty uncomfortable,
711
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,280
but I needed to get to the truth.
712
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,520
So, when we had no Jewish records
to support her story,
713
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,520
the question is,
maybe she's not even Jewish.
714
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,960
If she's not Jewish,
715
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,520
then she must be, most likely, Catholic.
716
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,360
If she was Catholic,
perhaps she was baptized.
717
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,320
Misha Defonseca's bank record
from the trial records
718
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,480
said that she was born in 1937,
719
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,320
her mother's maiden name was Donville,
720
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:47,960
and she was born in Etterbeek.
721
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,400
Etterbeek, a suburb of Brussels.
722
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:59,720
So, in Etterbeek,
I searched for different churches.
723
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,240
So Evelyne went to the first one.
The records weren't there.
724
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,280
Went to another one...
725
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,400
No baptismal record
that matched Misha's information.
726
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,920
And to the third one in the area...
727
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,120
As it turns out,
the church had burnt to the ground.
728
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,480
When we learned that,
I thought...
729
00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:23,520
"We're probably sunk now,
730
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,960
because the records
probably were destroyed in the fire."
731
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,240
But the offices, the presbytère,
732
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,000
was in an adjoining street.
733
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,480
They were preserved.
734
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,280
So, Evelyne was looking
date by date by date,
735
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,800
all the children born in that parish.
736
00:51:58,520 --> 00:51:59,840
I knew two things:
737
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:05,400
Her date of birth, 12th of May, 1937,
738
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,280
and the mother's name, Donville.
739
00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:26,120
And in that book, I found her.
740
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:33,320
"Monica Ernestina Josephine de Wael...
741
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:42,120
daughter of
Roberti Henrici Ernesti de Wael
742
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:48,400
and Josephinae Germanae Barbarae Donvil."
743
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:57,080
The revelation was that
Misha's father's name was de Wael.
744
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:02,080
So, at that point, it seemed that
Monique de Wael was her real name.
745
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,720
It wasn't a name
given to her by foster parents
746
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,320
to hide her from the Nazis.
747
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,840
It seemed like
she was born Monique de Wael.
748
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,520
She was a Catholic.
She was baptized Catholic.
749
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,080
Her father was de Wael.
750
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,400
However, it wasn't proof conclusive.
751
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,080
Because in those days,
they used to take names of dead children
752
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,720
and give them to Jewish children,
by way of hiding them.
753
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,400
It was possible that the de Waels
had taken in a hidden child
754
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,680
and that their own child had died.
755
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:39,800
I needed further proof.
756
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,680
So what did you do next?
757
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,800
Off the record,
this is a good question.
758
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,480
What do I do next?
759
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:57,880
Evelyne figured out, "All right,
where else can I find that proof?"
760
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,760
She would've gone to school.
761
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:09,400
I tried to find a school on the tram track
that she mentioned in her book.
762
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,880
And as I walked by,
I hit the school.
763
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:30,720
The door was open.
764
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,200
I walked in and asked
765
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:39,400
if they had any record of someone
with the name of Monique de Wael.
766
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,880
So, we're biting our fingernails,
767
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,080
to the point that
they're practically bleeding,
768
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,680
waiting for this information.
769
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,840
Either we've got the records or we don't.
770
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,640
And there on the register
was her name.
771
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,520
"De Wael, Monique."
772
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,720
That was really the final proof,
shall I say.
773
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,600
Both the baptism certificate
774
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,480
and her attendance
in a school in Brussels.
775
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,320
I got to the phone, and I picked up
the phone and it was Sharon.
776
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,000
And Sharon could hardly contain
her excitement.
777
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:36,800
She practically screamed into the phone,
778
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,560
"We've got the records!
We've got the records!"
779
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,680
That was the smoking gun.
780
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:52,560
Now I've caught her in a lie.
781
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:57,840
My life had been contaminated...
782
00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:59,400
End board.
783
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,160
...by a whole spiderweb of lies.
784
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:04,280
Take 15 minutes, everybody.
785
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,640
And here it is,
exposed as a hoax.
786
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:12,280
Could you pass me
a bottle of water, please?
787
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,360
- Thank you.
- I thought,
788
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:21,080
"Now, the whole story that she
has been telling in the book falls apart."
789
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:40,440
At that point, I knew
she was not who she said she was.
790
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,000
Not only was she not a Jewish child
791
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,520
hiding in the forest from the Nazis,
792
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,120
she was a Catholic child
safely enrolled in school.
793
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,200
She wasn't anywhere near wolves.
794
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,760
She was playing to an audience.
She knew exactly what she was doing.
795
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,360
Now we can see
that this is not just a little white fib.
796
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,760
This is a massive conspiracy over 20 years
797
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,440
to propagate something
that was a complete and total falsehood.
798
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,480
This was not the real Misha.
799
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,360
I had many feelings.
800
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,360
I felt angry. I felt disgusted.
801
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:56,600
I just saw the fake history,
the fake identity,
802
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:02,080
a way to get money out of the Holocaust.
803
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,680
Somebody stole
a very painful part of my life.
804
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:18,320
I felt it for myself, for my...
805
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,560
for all the hidden children
806
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,880
and all the dead children
through the Holocaust.
807
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:29,480
Uh...
808
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,880
For all the parents,
for my parents,
809
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,840
but in fact for all the Jewish community.
810
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,280
At the point
that we got those records,
811
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,760
the book was a huge bestseller
all over Europe
812
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,800
and the movie had just come out.
813
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,600
And the movie was called
Survival with Wolves.
814
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:28,760
There it is,
815
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:30,880
the trailer of Véra Belmont's film.
816
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,520
It's very touching to see you both here,
817
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:35,800
the real person and little Mathilde.
818
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:37,640
You seem very emotional.
819
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,600
It's as if you are reliving this story
every time you see the film?
820
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,360
Yes, that's right.
821
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,960
That's right. It's very difficult.
822
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:51,480
Do you recognize yourself
in Mathilde's acting?
823
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,000
Absolutely, absolutely.
824
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,920
It's very well expressed.
825
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:57,920
She plays magnificently.
826
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,600
She conveys the emotions very well.
827
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:05,240
It was the thought of my mother
that kept me going.
828
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,080
There is a scene in the film
829
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,000
which to me is extraordinary.
830
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,400
The one where she falls out of the train
and she says...
831
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,600
Cinema, with a beautiful film
inspired by a true story.
832
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:31,960
You're great.
833
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,240
You're a great actress.
834
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,000
This story is very, very moving.
835
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,800
An incredible story and yet a true story.
836
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,320
Cut! Excellent.
837
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,840
It premiered in Paris.
838
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:50,520
"Based on a true story."
839
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,240
And here we're holding these documents.
840
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,240
So we thought, "Let's go with this.
Let's put it on my blog,
841
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,480
and let's e-mail somebody
over there in Belgium."
842
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:05,800
The next morning we got up,
843
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,440
it had broken front page
of all the newspapers.
844
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:13,920
A book, then a film,
845
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,560
supposedly an autobiography,
but everything was false.
846
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,400
It was an incredible story,
the story of a young Shoah survivor.
847
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,240
We had fired a truth bomb. It had landed.
848
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,200
Surviving with Wolves,
the bestseller that inspired the film
849
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,600
released last month...
850
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,880
And the whole fake thing blew up.
851
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:33,040
...is not a true story.
852
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:35,560
Everything is false.
853
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:37,120
It was a big scam.
854
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:48,520
House lights.
855
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,920
I came home,
I immediately went to my computer,
856
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,720
I put in her name and there it was.
857
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,400
The beautiful story was entirely false.
858
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,200
In Belgium, her country of origin,
859
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,880
historians have discovered Misha Defonseca
is actually Monique de Wael.
860
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,440
I think I felt like my blood
just drained from my body, you know.
861
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,560
How... How can this possibly be?
862
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:17,960
I was angry.
863
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:20,840
I was sad. I was hurt.
864
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,520
I felt betrayed.
865
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:24,040
I felt used.
866
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:28,080
She became that close a friend to me
867
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,440
that when we had a litter of pups born,
we named one Misha.
868
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,920
It was just heartbreaking.
869
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:39,720
Absolutely heartbreaking.
870
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:43,040
Hey, baby girl.
871
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,440
We were duped, just like the rest of you.
872
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:56,280
That fact that she lied
about her being a Holocaust survivor
873
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:58,480
made me cry.
874
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,520
Misha Defonseca played on sympathy.
875
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,520
That's how she became
a wonderful storyteller.
876
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:07,040
Sympathy.
877
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,440
That's how Misha Defonseca
was able to fool people.
878
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:11,720
Sympathy.
879
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,120
I burst into tears.
880
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:23,880
I just felt so taken advantage of
and lied to and all...
881
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,320
Ugh! The lies and the bitterness
and everything came out.
882
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:32,240
Some of my neighbors did give her
quite large sums of money.
883
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:36,600
We're talking $25-30,000
to help her save the house.
884
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:43,040
She'd go to the rabbis
and ask for donations from the temple.
885
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,240
The entire community...
886
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,120
that knew her, my neighbors,
nobody talked to her again that I knew of.
887
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:57,680
Everybody felt betrayed.
888
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:00,720
Yeah.
889
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,080
There was a sort of anger that rose in me
890
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:15,160
which never left me.
891
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,760
The students who took part in the project,
892
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,920
the day I entered the class,
893
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:30,360
there was a state of revolt.
894
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,280
You have to imagine a pack in revolt.
895
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,520
Rants, tears, cries.
896
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:42,760
They were standing up
on the benches.
897
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,120
I was no longer in control,
898
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,800
and I usually contained my students
very well.
899
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:52,800
I contacted Misha straight away.
900
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,960
I wanted to be honest
and authentic with her.
901
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:02,360
But she said, "Don't worry."
902
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:08,240
"It must be the doing
of the publisher in America."
903
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,440
And then came
the next twist in the story.
904
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,840
It couldn't have gotten more bizarre.
905
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,120
I said to myself,
"I could never make up this plot."
906
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,840
If I did, somebody would say,
907
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,200
"This is preposterous.
This would not happen."
908
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,800
Every journalist dreams of a scoop.
909
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:46,120
The question for me was,
910
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,160
if her story is false,
911
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:51,520
then what is her real story?
912
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,800
What I simply did
913
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,920
was go through the Brussels phone book
914
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,680
where there are approximately
400 de Waels.
915
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,960
So I started to call them
one after the other.
916
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,240
And at the 44th or 43rd name,
917
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:17,080
I stumbled across a woman called
Emma de Wael.
918
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,720
My meeting with Emma, Misha's aunt,
919
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,560
was extraordinary.
920
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,360
She didn't go off
in search of her parents?
921
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:34,200
Good God, no.
922
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,960
She stayed with her grandfather
and grandmother.
923
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:42,400
Emma told me
924
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,440
her niece had always been delusional,
925
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:51,280
that she would create
imaginary worlds for herself.
926
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,160
I went and fetched her regularly
927
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,560
with the number 56 tram to Anderlecht
928
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,920
and brought her to Schaerbeek.
929
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:07,520
In the evenings,
I took her back to Uncle Ernest.
930
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:14,760
Emma de Wael
931
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,960
told me the truth
932
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,960
about what happened during the war.
933
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,560
What happened to Robert de Wael,
Misha Defonseca's father.
934
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:37,720
Robert de Wael
worked at Schaerbeek town hall.
935
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,080
He was really very patriotic
936
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:46,760
and very engaged in his role
as a reserve officer.
937
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:50,400
I met Jean-Philippe Tondeur by chance
938
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:55,840
but he had a lot of documentation
939
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:58,640
on Misha Defonseca's father.
940
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,960
So I went to consult
Robert de Wael's file.
941
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:16,440
On 10th of May, 1940,
the Germans invade Belgium.
942
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:24,920
They crush the Belgian army
during an 18-day campaign.
943
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:34,640
The king surrenders
944
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:36,760
and Belgium is occupied.
945
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:43,040
Robert de Wael joins the resistance...
946
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,480
...and begins to recruit
resistance fighters.
947
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,000
As a resistance fighter,
948
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,600
Robert de Wael
949
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,920
was involved in gathering weapons...
950
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,000
activating intelligence networks
951
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:11,760
and transmitting intelligence
to the Belgian government
952
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:13,560
which had gone to London.
953
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,640
Unfortunately, Robert de Wael
wasn't very discreet
954
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:19,720
about his activities for the resistance.
955
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,600
He had a loose tongue.
956
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,440
He was proud of what he was doing.
957
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:32,760
Because I knew he had
958
01:09:33,440 --> 01:09:34,720
secret documents.
959
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,560
He even showed them to us at home.
960
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:41,680
My father told him to be careful,
961
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,480
that he was becoming careless.
962
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,400
He risked arrest.
963
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:53,960
He was denounced by a Nazi collaborator
964
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:57,960
and was quickly arrested.
965
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:01,560
Robert de Wael, his wife
966
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:05,400
and 41 arrested resistance fighters
967
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,360
are deported to Germany...
968
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:16,760
and sent to
the Brauweiler Prison in Cologne.
969
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,920
The Cologne prison
had a very harsh regime.
970
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:30,440
He is interrogated
by the Gestapo.
971
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:34,800
He starts to scream.
972
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:39,840
Robert de Wael cracks.
973
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:52,400
Robert de Wael
made a deal in the Cologne prison.
974
01:10:52,480 --> 01:10:54,440
This deal involved him
975
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:59,320
handing over the names
of his fellow resistance fighters
976
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:03,720
in exchange for his wife being protected
977
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:05,680
and to once again see his daughter,
978
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:07,320
Misha Defonseca.
979
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:15,720
In August 1942,
after betraying his fellow officers,
980
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,720
as the Germans had demanded of him,
981
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:22,520
Robert de Wael got one last opportunity
to see his daughter.
982
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:27,680
And that would be
983
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:30,760
the end for...
984
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:35,680
for Robert de Wael,
who was later deported.
985
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:44,600
Robert and his wife Germaine
would both die in the German camps.
986
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:52,000
We called her "The Traitor's Daughter."
987
01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:57,000
Because it was said that her father
988
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,000
sided with the Germans.
989
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:13,360
The municipality of Schaerbeek
would engrave a plaque
990
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:18,440
in the name of the resistance fighters
who died during the war.
991
01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:25,960
Robert de Wael,
992
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:28,000
whose name was listed last...
993
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,120
was later erased.
994
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:39,440
On 22nd of February 2008,
995
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:43,520
once things were very clear,
996
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:48,800
uh, we published
Robert de Wael's whole story,
997
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:50,160
the betrayal,
998
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:54,120
the falseness
of Misha Defonseca's account.
999
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:56,600
And in the hours that followed,
1000
01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:59,360
a statement was issued.
1001
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,880
This is Misha Defonseca's statement.
1002
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:13,080
"They called me 'The Traitor's Daughter'
1003
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:19,000
because my father was suspected
of having spoken under torture."
1004
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:25,520
"This book,
1005
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,600
this story, is mine."
1006
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,400
"It is not the actual reality,
1007
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:40,040
but it was my reality...
1008
01:13:42,480 --> 01:13:44,000
my way of surviving."
1009
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:49,000
"I ask forgiveness."
1010
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:55,640
"All I ever wanted
was to exorcise my suffering."
1011
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,640
I felt so rejected,
1012
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:13,840
but I could not explain it to myself,
1013
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:16,080
neither to my grandmother
or my grandfather.
1014
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:20,480
I am not the girl I thought,
1015
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:23,240
but there are times...
1016
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:25,280
when I still hesitate.
1017
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,160
I say to myself,
1018
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:29,240
"Did I or didn't I experience it?"
1019
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:30,840
I have to think.
1020
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,040
Particularly with animals.
1021
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,440
Particularly with animals.
1022
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:39,600
I can still see myself
1023
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:43,040
rolling on the ground with wolves.
1024
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:01,920
Have you seen my lovely wolves?
1025
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:06,000
They will always be
1026
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:07,800
my wolves.
1027
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:11,680
I will be always at their side.
1028
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:16,360
Even if I know the truth now.
1029
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,520
I am at their side.
1030
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,320
I got into a bubble,
1031
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:27,160
a world of my own.
1032
01:15:28,480 --> 01:15:31,520
And this world of mine
was filled with animals.
1033
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:35,920
Animals that defended me
1034
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:37,240
against humans.
1035
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,640
Listening back to this interview,
1036
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:09,040
the first words in the intro
to the show were...
1037
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:13,040
"Sometimes a story's so astonishing,
1038
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,080
it's unbelievable."
1039
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:19,760
That's pretty astonishing.
That those were the first words.
1040
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:23,960
And then it turns out, it's not true.
1041
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:32,040
I believed her.
1042
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,440
I didn't see anything in those eyes
1043
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:38,160
that made me think
she wasn't telling me the truth.
1044
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:42,160
Fear for me,
at this time, was the German.
1045
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:43,240
It was the...
1046
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:48,080
All I was doing
was looking for more truth
1047
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:51,160
to confirm what I already believed.
1048
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:54,240
In hindsight, it's chilling.
1049
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:58,320
But for me, at that moment,
1050
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:03,680
I was so respectful
of someone's experience,
1051
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:07,520
at what I think we all,
as citizens of the world,
1052
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:12,280
will recognize was the darkest time
in the history of our world.
1053
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:15,880
Far be it from me to question her.
1054
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:26,680
Questioning
someone's claim to be a Holocaust survivor
1055
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:28,560
is very difficult.
1056
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:34,400
One brings a great deal of diffidence
to those claims.
1057
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:41,680
But the danger of believing everything
1058
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:46,200
puts history
1059
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:50,000
and the historical reality
1060
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,960
of genuine survivors at risk.
1061
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,600
In December 1996,
1062
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:08,360
I got a letter and a manuscript
from Jane Daniel.
1063
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:13,640
That manuscript was Misha: A Mémoire
1064
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:17,880
by a young girl during the Holocaust.
1065
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:22,000
I called Jane Daniel
1066
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:26,640
to explain why this narrative
just did not work.
1067
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:29,720
I said to her,
1068
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,880
"I would not publish this book."
1069
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,480
I have thought a lot over the years
1070
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:45,320
as to why Jane Daniel
decided to go forward with publication.
1071
01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:49,080
She clearly hoped
1072
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:52,800
that the manuscript was true,
1073
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:58,480
but she clearly worried that it was not.
1074
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:01,680
I think it was greed
1075
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,880
that powered this narrative
1076
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:11,280
for Misha and Jane Daniel.
1077
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:17,720
And then, as those sales figures rose,
1078
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:19,880
more and more people
1079
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,840
accepted the memoir as real and as true.
1080
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:31,160
I admit it,
I had created the monster.
1081
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:32,600
She was my monster.
1082
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:37,240
I had created this person
with enormous sympathy as a character.
1083
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:40,640
Somebody who had suffered terribly.
1084
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:43,880
Somebody who deserved respect
and, in fact, awe.
1085
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:47,600
And nobody wants to admit
that they were tricked.
1086
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:50,960
And I admit it,
I was tricked by her, I believed her.
1087
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:53,840
Everybody was seduced.
1088
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:57,760
The American jurisprudence system,
the judges and the juries,
1089
01:19:57,840 --> 01:19:59,560
we were all seduced by the story.
1090
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:04,520
It's human to believe.
1091
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:07,560
Credibility is something else.
1092
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,840
It's your need to question
if things are not
1093
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:19,760
that will help you discern
what's true and what's not true.
1094
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,480
You killed a human being with a knife?
1095
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:27,800
Because I saw the rape
1096
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:29,920
of a little girl.
1097
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:36,000
I have enough distance
1098
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:41,160
to take a more analytical look
at Misha's character.
1099
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:44,280
When I saw that, I jumped
1100
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,200
because he turned and came towards me.
1101
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:50,040
At that moment,
I only thought about one thing,
1102
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:51,120
to live.
1103
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:52,480
Because I wanted to live.
1104
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:57,480
Misha created a world for herself,
1105
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,800
a world of her own belief.
1106
01:21:00,440 --> 01:21:04,160
When he was close,
I stabbed him in the stomach.
1107
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:08,680
I slashed everywhere.
1108
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:10,520
The throat, the face.
1109
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:12,200
I was covered in blood.
1110
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:16,160
It was horrible.
1111
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:18,720
Writing this book
1112
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:21,320
has caused me to relive...
1113
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:23,560
...my nightmares.
1114
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:30,240
Misha sought refuge
in mythomania,
1115
01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:33,960
and with time,
1116
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:38,040
she slowly becomes
1117
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:42,040
a character in her own story.
1118
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:43,920
Every time I stabbed,
1119
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:46,640
it was for this little girl,
it was for the children,
1120
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:48,440
it was for my parents.
1121
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,200
I think that we would like to believe
1122
01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:55,400
that Misha Defonseca believed
1123
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:59,120
that she was a survivor of the Holocaust.
1124
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:01,280
I think we would like to believe
1125
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,240
that we were not so naive,
1126
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:09,520
that we believed it
because she believed it.
1127
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:12,600
And we would even like to believe
1128
01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:17,880
that this narrative
has a redemptive purpose,
1129
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:23,000
because it made right
the wrong of her childhood.
1130
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:25,160
I think it's nonsense.
1131
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:29,280
There is no redemptive purpose.
1132
01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:31,760
We were so naive.
1133
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,120
It was all a fabrication.
1134
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,400
How I feel about her today...
1135
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:50,600
Mixed... Mixed emotions.
1136
01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:59,720
I think that she was a protagonist
of this story, but she was not alone.
1137
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:04,920
There were other people that helped
1138
01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:07,760
to make this, uh,
1139
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:10,840
biography be a bestseller.
1140
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:20,680
Just talking about her
right now, and the search,
1141
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:23,760
and the years that went by...
1142
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:28,600
Some pity...
1143
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:30,800
Some pity.
1144
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:33,880
Uh...
1145
01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:37,720
Some repulsion...
1146
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:41,680
Maybe it's too hard a word, but...
1147
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:50,760
I'm feeling some uh, understanding.
1148
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:57,720
As a child, it must have been
very difficult for her after the war,
1149
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:04,720
the fact that her father
was called a traitor, a collaborator.
1150
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:10,600
She's both a victim and a villain.
1151
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:13,120
She's both.
1152
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:16,200
She is both in this story.88821
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.