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NARRATOR: Two apex predatorsdominate the ocean,
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the great white shark,a lone hunter.
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And the orca,known as thekiller whale.
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Both sit atop the oceanic foodchain so when orca begin to
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hunt great white sharksin South Africa,
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it's big news.
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Experts want to knowwill it happen again,
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and if so where?
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(theme music plays)
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It's happened before,
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orca have hunted andkilled great white sharks.
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One of the first reportedcases off the coast of
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California in 1997.
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And again in 2017off South Africa.
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Five dead whitesharks washed ashore.
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Shark scientists wondered whyorca would hunt dangerous prey
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like a white shark.
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With attacks happening inoceans around the world,
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experts are looking forsimilarities and patterns,
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and what the effect wouldbe on the marine ecosystem.
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Particularly in New Zealand.
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KINA: When the orca started
to kill the great white
sharks in South Africa,
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the rest of the sharks
actually disappeared
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and haven't come
back for years.
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If that happened
in New Zealand,
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not only would we lose this
population of great whites
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that we've learned so much
about but it would also be
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disastrous for this
ecosystem to lose
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an apex predator like that.
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NARRATOR: There are severaltheories about exactly why
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the sharks vanished.
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But the coincidenceof the orca attacks
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and the disappearance of thesharks is hard to ignore.
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And there's a lot at stake,
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including the health ofthe marine ecosystem.
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New Zealand has alocal orca population
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of between 150 and 200.
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While the white sharkaggregation is one of the
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largest in the world.
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Estimated to be over 5,000.
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If the orca begin to goafter white sharks here,
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they have plentyto choose from.
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New Zealanders Kina Scollayand Dr. Ingrid Visser
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are investigating.
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Orca could be hunting greatwhite sharks already.
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But no white sharkshave washed up
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on New Zealand beaches.
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So, they're searching forother signs of orca predation.
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Any strange behavior,wounds from an encounter,
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anything that points toorca hunting white sharks.
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INGRID: I'm coming
down the port side.
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KINA: Roger.
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It really is
interesting, Ingrid.
What do you think?
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NARRATOR: Local great whitesare in New Zealand waters from
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December to June,when many willleave on their
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annual 2,000 mile migration,to the coast of Australia,
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and the Tropical Pacific.
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Local orca, on the other hand,remain in New Zealand watersall year round,
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roaming the coastlinein search of prey.
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Ingrid is New Zealand'stop orca specialist.
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But today is her first divewith great white sharks.
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KINA: I'm pretty psyched to
get you in a cage with, uh,
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my favorite population of great
white sharks in the world.
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INGRID: I have to admit,
I'm pretty pumped about it
myself, that's for sure!
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Wow!
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KINA: What do you think?
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INGRID: It's pretty amazing,
Kina, to see New Zealand
sharks this close.
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I really expected to
be quite scared, but
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in the safety of the cage
here, it's quite impressive
to just watch them
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doing their great white
shark thing, right?
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Wow!
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He snuck up on us!
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KINA: That's their specialty!
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NARRATOR: Great whitesharks in this area arecurious and aggressive,
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which makes them dangerous.
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Orca and white sharks haveshared the top of the ocean
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food chain formillions of years.
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So why would orca attackgreat whites like these now?
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INGRID: Even though orca
are the largest of the
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dolphin family and
they can be friendly,
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we still have to consider
that they are one of the top
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predators of the ocean.
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NARRATOR: Ingrid's researchtracks the 200 or so orca
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living in NewZealand's waters.
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INGRID: Yeah, I know, big guy!
Hang in there.
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The exciting thing about this
adventure for me is that we've
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got two top predators,
and we don't really know
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what's happening between them.
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NARRATOR: Orca and whitesharks are the top
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two ocean predators.
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Yet they'refundamentally different.
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Orca are air-breathingmammals.
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White sharks arewater-breathing fish.
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Orcas live inpods of up to 40,
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made up of individual familyunits that remain together
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for life and huntcooperatively.
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Some new research suggestswhite sharks may occasionally
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hunt in groups.
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But they tend to hunt alone.
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The largest great white everrecorded measured over 20 feet
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and weighed 5,000 pounds.
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Small for an orca.
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Killer whales can growto 30 feet or more.
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And weigh as muchas 20,000 pounds.
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But as different as they are,
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orca and great whites areboth sophisticated,
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tough,and hungry predators.
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KINA: Whoa, this
is a big animal.
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NARRATOR: Kina and Ingriddive again and again.
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Searching for evidence.
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KINA: Well, that was a pretty
amazing interaction, Ingrid!
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Those two sharks
actually physically
bumped into each other!
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Nobody wanted to back down,
and they were leaning
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pectoral fin onto pectoral fin.
That's quite a sight!
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INGRID: I think this was more
of a, you know, "get out of
my territory" interaction.
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I don't doubt that if the orca
were going to take on one of
these great white sharks,
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they would be thinking
very carefully about
it before they did.
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There wouldn't be a mistake,
and it wouldn't be something
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that they would
take on lightly.
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Yeah, there seems to be
a very strong hierarchy
going on here.
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When you see that with
orca, it's usually a
nice social interaction.
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It really is an impressive,
predator on predator
interaction, that's for sure.
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NARRATOR: In 2017,
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a predator-on-predatorinteraction of another kind
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took place along thecoast of South Africa.
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Five dead great white sharkswashed up on local beaches.
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The news is shocking.
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Scientists conductedan investigation.
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Of all the evidence collected,it was the bite marks on the
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shark bodies thatrevealed the killers.
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The teeth marksbelonged to orca.
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Stranger still,the killer whaleshad taken only
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the shark livers and left therest of the bodies untouched.
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This was the first recordedcase of orcas killing
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white sharks in South Africa.
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Shark and orca scientistswondered when and where it
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might happen again.
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INGRID: We can't rule out that
the orca here in New Zealand
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could hunt great white sharks
in exactly the same way.
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NARRATOR: The Foveaux Straitsits at the southern end
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of New Zealand.
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Over 6,000 miles to theeast of South Africa.
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Both regions have largepopulations of great whites
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and roaming pods of orca.
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A combination that resultedin a fatal confrontation
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in South Africa.
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And if white sharks andorca ever cross pathsin New Zealand,
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this is where it could happen,
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in the Foveaux Strait.
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♪ ♪
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KINA: We've got a couple
of good players here.
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There's two sharks that
are pretty boisterous.
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It's pretty cool!
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NARRATOR: Large, boisterous,
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and aggressivegreat white sharks.
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What possible motive couldan orca have for attacking
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a great white?
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There isn't a clear answer.
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But to Ingrid,it makes some sense.
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INGRID (off-screen):
Typically, in New Zealand,
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the orcas are not just
targeting prey to take
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the whole thing.
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They're focused on
particular parts of them
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and that's the liver!
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NARRATOR: When theSouth African orcaskilled the great whites,
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this is what they did.
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Hunting for liverwith great precision.
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Liver is a prizefor any predator.
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To hunt, mate, and migratethousands of miles,
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takes energy.
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Liver is pure fuel.
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So when they hunt,they're filling the tank.
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New Zealand orca feed onthe 25 species of rays and
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skates that swimin local waters.
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The preference for rays isunique to orca in New Zealand.
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But recently localorca have acquired
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a taste for shark liver.
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From a smaller cousinof the great white,the sevengill.
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And evidence suggestsSouth African orca
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started on sevengill sharks
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and graduated to great whites.
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NARRATOR: Ingrid Visser andKina Scollay are looking for
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evidence that orca arehunting great white sharks
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in New Zealand waters.
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Ingrid has evidence thatthere's a disturbing pattern
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in orca hunting.
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New Zealand orca arehunting sevengill sharks,
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just like theSouth African orca.
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Sevengill sharks grow to ninefeet long and 200 pounds.
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A much larger meal foran orca than a small ray.
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But the sevengillshark is no easy prey.
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INGRID: Sevengills are
relatively new on the orca menu,
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but I've seen
it a few times now.
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INGRID (off-screen):
You see the orca,
and they're very,
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very precise in
how they do it.
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I've got footage of the orca
with the sevengills where
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they've ripped
the pectoral fin,
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right under the
pectoral girdle there.
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KINA (off-screen): Right.
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INGRID: And they've
extracted the liver.
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WOMAN (off-screen): Wee!
Oh, there's a shark.
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WOMAN (off-screen): Oh, shark.
Shark.
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INGRID (off-screen): One
of the things I find
fascinating is how the
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sevengills will actually
turn and defend themselves
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against the orca.
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The way the orca hunt
the sevengills
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is pretty impressive.
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First of all they'll
come in and they'll
karate chop the shark,
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so they'll just come
and lift their tail up and
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whack them on the back.
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Then they grab the sharks by
the pectoral fin and rip them
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open and pull the livers out.
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NARRATOR: Ingrid capturedrare footage of orcas hunting
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sevengills inNorthern New Zealand.
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♪ ♪
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Their precision in huntingfor shark liver is clear.
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KINA (off-screen): What's
really fascinating is
that in South Africa,
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the orca started
by hunting sevengills,
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and then they moved on to
the great white sharks.
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So knowing what's gone
on in South Africa,
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what concerns me is
exactly the same thing
could happen here.
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NARRATOR: A concentration ofsevengill sharks lives up
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along the westerncoast of New Zealand.
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Kina has dived withthem for years,
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knows just where they live,and how they behave.
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KINA (over radio): Beautiful.
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NARRATOR: They decide to dropin and see if the sevengills
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can give them any clues.
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Fiordland National Parkis a vast,
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remote wilderness onthe western shore
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of New Zealand's south island.
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Most areas are accessibleonly by helicopter or boat.
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KINA (over radio):You know really,
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you fly overthese mountains and
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you're in a completelydifferent world,
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and then under the water,
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it's completelydifferent again.
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Different to just aboutanywhere else you'll dive.
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Amazing.
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NARRATOR: These deepfiords are murky,
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stained with tanninsfrom the ancient forest.
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It makes the water dark,even in the middle of the day.
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If orcas came hereto hunt sevengills,
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it's possible noone would ever know.
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KINA (over radio): Iactually haven't been inhere for about two years.
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INGRID (over radio): Wow.
249
00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:36,078
KINA (over radio):And that's afterdiving here month in,
250
00:16:36,161 --> 00:16:39,415
month out for many years,and I really felt like
251
00:16:39,498 --> 00:16:41,667
I knew thesesevengills so well.
252
00:16:41,750 --> 00:16:43,794
All this talk aboutorca eating them,
253
00:16:43,877 --> 00:16:46,422
I just kind of want tocome and have a look.
254
00:16:46,505 --> 00:16:47,881
INGRID (over radio): Yeah.
255
00:16:47,965 --> 00:16:49,341
Absolutely Kina,and I mean look,
256
00:16:49,425 --> 00:16:51,760
that ties in with thesightings we've had recently
257
00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:53,804
of the orca coming downthis bit of coastline,
258
00:16:53,887 --> 00:16:56,807
so I'd be fascinated to knowif they're coming up here
259
00:16:56,890 --> 00:16:58,100
to your sevengills.
260
00:17:01,562 --> 00:17:04,565
NARRATOR: The only place forKina and Ingrid to land is on
261
00:17:04,648 --> 00:17:08,068
a small fishing trawler,in the middle of nowhere.
262
00:17:13,866 --> 00:17:17,077
KINA (off-screen): My
little secret spot is
only just literally one
263
00:17:17,161 --> 00:17:18,746
minute's flying
time from here,
264
00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:21,874
so I think it's easiest
if I gear up here.
265
00:17:21,957 --> 00:17:23,250
INGRID (off-screen):
Right. Yeah.
266
00:17:23,333 --> 00:17:24,793
KINA (off-screen):
And then I'm gonna
hop in the helicopter,
267
00:17:24,877 --> 00:17:27,087
just buzz around
there and bomb in!
268
00:17:31,675 --> 00:17:35,429
♪ ♪
269
00:17:41,977 --> 00:17:44,480
NARRATOR: Divingwithout a cage,
270
00:17:44,563 --> 00:17:47,524
Kina will have to becareful of the sevengills
271
00:17:47,608 --> 00:17:50,194
and keep an eye out for orca.
272
00:17:50,986 --> 00:17:54,198
They could be anywhere.
273
00:17:58,952 --> 00:18:00,662
NARRATOR: Kina Scollayis paying a visit to an
274
00:18:00,746 --> 00:18:03,332
aggregation ofsevengill sharks in
275
00:18:03,415 --> 00:18:06,418
Fiordland National Park,New Zealand.
276
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:14,676
And knows justwhere to find them.
277
00:18:19,264 --> 00:18:22,976
He's looking for any signsthat orca are hunting
278
00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:24,895
these sevengill sharks.
279
00:18:30,192 --> 00:18:34,530
♪ ♪
280
00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:48,168
KINA: The murky water really
works well for these guys.
281
00:18:50,629 --> 00:18:53,215
You just can't
see them coming.
282
00:19:01,306 --> 00:19:03,767
As they're approaching,
you just see the
283
00:19:04,226 --> 00:19:06,937
white under their mouth.
284
00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:12,359
Looks like an evil
kind of Joker grin.
285
00:19:13,152 --> 00:19:15,988
And then a shark materializes
out of the murk.
286
00:19:19,825 --> 00:19:22,911
NARRATOR: Thesevengills are here,
287
00:19:22,995 --> 00:19:26,498
drifting in andout of sight.
288
00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:33,213
Checking out the intruder.
289
00:19:35,048 --> 00:19:39,595
KINA: Scientists have
found remains of really
big animals inside them.
290
00:19:40,846 --> 00:19:44,224
Prey items as big, or
bigger, than a human.
291
00:19:44,725 --> 00:19:49,855
And really, the only way
they could do this is if
they're pack hunting.
292
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,903
When you see one coming
out of the murk,
293
00:19:56,403 --> 00:20:00,032
you almost know
there'll be another one
coming from one side,
294
00:20:02,201 --> 00:20:03,827
and if you look the other way,
295
00:20:03,911 --> 00:20:06,413
there'll be another one
sneaking in there, too.
296
00:20:12,294 --> 00:20:13,420
KINA (over radio): Whoa!
297
00:20:14,213 --> 00:20:15,672
KINA: And they're relentless!
298
00:20:27,559 --> 00:20:30,479
Well, it's good to see that
these sevengills are here
299
00:20:30,562 --> 00:20:32,898
and up to their usual tricks.
300
00:20:36,777 --> 00:20:38,904
But to be honest,
301
00:20:41,365 --> 00:20:44,243
there's less than I expected
to find on this dive.
302
00:20:46,245 --> 00:20:48,413
NARRATOR: Sevengillsmay be prey for orca,
303
00:20:48,497 --> 00:20:52,000
but these sharksare no pushovers.
304
00:20:52,626 --> 00:20:54,294
KINA: Oh, this one
means business!
305
00:20:57,923 --> 00:21:01,468
But it's the ones that
sneak up behind that I
really have to worry about.
306
00:21:04,096 --> 00:21:05,347
Whoa, I like this guy!
307
00:21:07,307 --> 00:21:09,726
Yeah, these guys are revving
up a bit much for me.
308
00:21:12,813 --> 00:21:16,483
I think it's time to get
out before they take
control of the situation.
309
00:21:24,783 --> 00:21:27,577
That was awesome to go
and visit those guys.
310
00:21:27,661 --> 00:21:29,871
INGRID: Yeah, great jump!
KINA: Yeah, cheers mate.
311
00:21:29,955 --> 00:21:34,710
KINA (off-screen): That splash
and the, and the noise of the
helicopter really has to
312
00:21:34,793 --> 00:21:38,255
attract them and they
were straight on top
of me when I got in,
313
00:21:38,338 --> 00:21:41,341
but not as many as I
would've expected to see.
314
00:21:41,425 --> 00:21:42,551
INGRID: Really?
315
00:21:42,634 --> 00:21:45,220
Okay, well that's really
interesting because given that
316
00:21:45,304 --> 00:21:47,389
we know historically that
orca are coming in here,
317
00:21:47,472 --> 00:21:49,182
and we've had the
reports recently,
318
00:21:49,266 --> 00:21:51,685
and now you're seeing less
sharks in here too, so,
319
00:21:51,768 --> 00:21:55,480
you know, it's indicative
that something's been
going on, right?
320
00:21:59,443 --> 00:22:01,903
NARRATOR: Lower sevengillnumbers could mean a few
321
00:22:01,987 --> 00:22:06,533
things are going on includingpredation by larger predators,
322
00:22:06,616 --> 00:22:09,411
like orcas.
323
00:22:10,329 --> 00:22:13,582
That would mark a changein their usual diet.
324
00:22:17,294 --> 00:22:21,506
Traditionally,New Zealand orcahunt the many species
325
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:25,886
of rays and skates thatlive in these waters.
326
00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:32,309
Like, all dolphins, they have aspecial ability to find them.
327
00:22:32,392 --> 00:22:34,436
INGRID: Orca hunt
using echolocation,
328
00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:38,231
which is a series of clicks
that they send out that bounce
329
00:22:38,315 --> 00:22:41,068
back and give them
incredible information.
330
00:22:42,027 --> 00:22:45,572
They can tell even if a
shark has a full tummy.
331
00:22:46,281 --> 00:22:48,533
NARRATOR: It works like sonar.
332
00:22:49,534 --> 00:22:52,412
The orca can detect their preyeven when it's buried
333
00:22:52,496 --> 00:22:54,247
in the sand.
334
00:22:57,042 --> 00:23:00,712
But, filling up on rays andskates can be hard work
335
00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:03,715
and burn a lot ofprecious energy.
336
00:23:07,969 --> 00:23:08,970
KINA: All right.
337
00:23:09,054 --> 00:23:10,138
INGRID (off-screen):
Do you see them?
338
00:23:10,222 --> 00:23:11,348
Look, they're in a really
tight group over here.
339
00:23:11,431 --> 00:23:12,766
Right there.
340
00:23:14,309 --> 00:23:16,812
NARRATOR: Many raysare bottom feeders,
341
00:23:16,895 --> 00:23:20,315
and spend much of their timeon or buried in the sandy
342
00:23:20,399 --> 00:23:22,526
ocean floor.
343
00:23:23,819 --> 00:23:28,156
Orca jaws are not designedto grab them off the bottom,
344
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,201
so the orca work together.
345
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,456
Chasing the rays upward andcatching them in the open.
346
00:23:41,753 --> 00:23:45,090
But ray hunts don'talways go smoothly.
347
00:23:47,134 --> 00:23:51,430
Rays often flee toshallower water,
348
00:23:57,602 --> 00:24:01,356
making it dangerousfor the orca.
349
00:24:05,861 --> 00:24:08,280
There is the risk ofa fatal stranding
350
00:24:08,363 --> 00:24:10,991
as the tide goes out.
351
00:24:20,959 --> 00:24:25,297
And the ray may still escape.
352
00:24:30,635 --> 00:24:33,597
NARRATOR: When orca huntrays in New Zealand,
353
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,017
their size is notalways an advantage.
354
00:24:40,312 --> 00:24:43,815
♪ ♪
355
00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:54,367
After a lot of workand coordinated effortamong several orca,
356
00:24:57,496 --> 00:25:00,790
they catch the ray
357
00:25:00,874 --> 00:25:04,878
but it's a tiny payofffor all that effort.
358
00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:12,052
And compared with whitesharks rays are a snack.
359
00:25:13,512 --> 00:25:16,723
One 700-pound great whiteshark liver could be
360
00:25:16,806 --> 00:25:21,436
equivalent to nearly175 ray livers.
361
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,148
And it's a lot more workto hunt multiple rays.
362
00:25:26,691 --> 00:25:30,278
While it is more dangerous tohunt a single great white,
363
00:25:30,362 --> 00:25:33,532
it might be worth the risk.
364
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,124
KINA: It's really hard not to
think when you see animals
365
00:25:43,208 --> 00:25:45,377
that big that their
liver must be
366
00:25:45,460 --> 00:25:47,837
gold to a liver-eating orca.
367
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,009
NARRATOR: A great white livercan grow to 25% of the shark's
368
00:25:53,093 --> 00:25:55,220
total weight.
369
00:25:55,303 --> 00:25:58,139
If a 12-foot great whiteweighs 1,000 pounds,
370
00:25:58,223 --> 00:26:02,686
it may have a liverweighing 250 pounds.
371
00:26:04,104 --> 00:26:07,190
A big pay-off for the orca.
372
00:26:16,908 --> 00:26:20,662
Kina and Ingrid are off oneof the Foveaux Strait's large
373
00:26:20,745 --> 00:26:22,956
colonies of seals.
374
00:26:27,252 --> 00:26:31,381
Over the summer,the white sharks consume many.
375
00:26:33,425 --> 00:26:37,512
Their livers are swollenwith seal blubber and oil.
376
00:26:39,472 --> 00:26:43,018
Ingrid and Kina are looking atthe length of the sharks
377
00:26:43,101 --> 00:26:45,353
to estimate their liver weight.
378
00:26:45,812 --> 00:26:48,565
INGRID: There's one coming up
from the starboard side there.
379
00:26:51,151 --> 00:26:52,569
That's coming right in at us.
380
00:26:55,780 --> 00:26:57,824
How big do you think
that one is, Kina?
381
00:26:58,450 --> 00:27:01,453
KINA: See, that male there
is quite a bit smaller.
382
00:27:02,412 --> 00:27:05,832
And he's well longer than
this cage is wide, so,
383
00:27:06,207 --> 00:27:07,500
probably...
384
00:27:08,084 --> 00:27:10,170
three and a half meters?
385
00:27:11,963 --> 00:27:15,550
It's still three or
four times bigger than
any of the sevengills
386
00:27:15,634 --> 00:27:17,719
I saw on the dive
the other day.
387
00:27:19,638 --> 00:27:23,058
NARRATOR: Great white sharksas prey for anything,
388
00:27:23,141 --> 00:27:26,227
even orca,is hard to fathom.
389
00:27:26,311 --> 00:27:29,773
But the orca maysee them that way.
390
00:27:29,856 --> 00:27:31,733
INGRID: All our evidence
points to the fact that the
391
00:27:31,816 --> 00:27:35,987
New Zealand orca have
a very strong culture
of hunting sharks.
392
00:27:38,365 --> 00:27:43,119
INGRID (off-screen): If the
rays were removed from the
food web here in New Zealand,
393
00:27:43,203 --> 00:27:48,583
chances are the orca would
shift their food preferences.
394
00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:54,255
And they could start targeting
great white sharks in earnest.
395
00:27:54,339 --> 00:27:57,425
NARRATOR: So far thesupply of rays and skates
396
00:27:57,509 --> 00:27:59,302
has been ample.
397
00:27:59,386 --> 00:28:03,765
But add warming oceans tonatural fluctuations in all
398
00:28:03,848 --> 00:28:07,185
animal populations andit's hard to predict
399
00:28:07,268 --> 00:28:08,436
what will happen.
400
00:28:09,729 --> 00:28:12,190
INGRID: Looks like
the size of a horse.
401
00:28:14,859 --> 00:28:18,405
A shark that size, the liver
has to be absolutely huge.
402
00:28:23,118 --> 00:28:25,370
KINA: I think we can
pretty accurately say
403
00:28:26,037 --> 00:28:30,125
it's 4.2 meters long, or
even a little bit bigger.
404
00:28:31,167 --> 00:28:37,215
And that weighs something like
1200 kilos, or 2500 pounds.
405
00:28:42,053 --> 00:28:44,723
That's a mighty,
mighty feed for a
406
00:28:44,806 --> 00:28:46,349
liver-eating orca.
407
00:28:49,686 --> 00:28:53,690
INGRID: I think a shark
that size would be a feast
for a whole family, mate.
408
00:28:54,232 --> 00:28:55,692
Not just one orca!
409
00:28:58,403 --> 00:29:00,572
Is it just me, Kina, or are the
circles that they're making
410
00:29:00,655 --> 00:29:02,949
getting smaller and smaller?
411
00:29:04,075 --> 00:29:05,660
KINA: I think you're
dead right, mate.
412
00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:13,626
INGRID: Is it behind us?
413
00:29:14,836 --> 00:29:16,546
Under the boat!
414
00:29:17,130 --> 00:29:18,381
Here he comes again, eh?
415
00:29:26,931 --> 00:29:29,392
NARRATOR: The half dozenwhite sharks swimming by
416
00:29:29,476 --> 00:29:32,687
are more than impressive.
417
00:29:32,771 --> 00:29:38,234
To an orca, they may representthe food value of 1,000 rays.
418
00:29:38,693 --> 00:29:41,237
KINA: There's another huge one.
Here we go!
419
00:29:43,198 --> 00:29:47,243
If that other one that we
saw earlier was 4.2 meters,
420
00:29:47,327 --> 00:29:50,205
I would say that she
would have to be
421
00:29:50,288 --> 00:29:55,960
well over four and a
half meters. Probably
close to 15 or 16 feet.
422
00:29:56,795 --> 00:29:59,631
NARRATOR: At 16 feet,this one great whiteshark alone
423
00:29:59,714 --> 00:30:03,885
is the equivalent of200 rays to a hungry orca.
424
00:30:03,968 --> 00:30:06,346
It might be a motivefor predation.
425
00:30:06,846 --> 00:30:10,433
INGRID: Compared to the
size of a ray liver,
which is just a few pounds,
426
00:30:10,517 --> 00:30:14,437
a couple of kilos at most,
to the size of a liver of
these guys,
427
00:30:14,521 --> 00:30:17,315
it's no wonder the orca
would want to target them.
428
00:30:19,442 --> 00:30:20,568
KINA (off-screen):
It's hard not to think,
429
00:30:20,652 --> 00:30:22,362
an animal as intelligent
as the orca,
430
00:30:22,445 --> 00:30:25,114
that they're coming through
here at the perfect time
431
00:30:25,198 --> 00:30:26,950
of year,
when the livers are fat,
432
00:30:27,033 --> 00:30:29,536
they've gotta see
this as a food source.
433
00:30:29,619 --> 00:30:31,079
And even though
it's high risk,
434
00:30:31,162 --> 00:30:33,706
we've seen in South Africa
that they can decide
435
00:30:33,790 --> 00:30:34,874
it's worth it.
436
00:30:34,958 --> 00:30:36,125
There's such a
food source there.
437
00:30:36,209 --> 00:30:37,669
INGRID: Oh, absolutely.
438
00:30:37,752 --> 00:30:39,587
KINA: You've gotta wonder
whether they're not already
439
00:30:39,671 --> 00:30:40,922
onto this.
440
00:30:41,005 --> 00:30:42,632
It may have been going on for
a long time in New Zealand but
441
00:30:42,715 --> 00:30:43,758
we've just never
heard about it.
442
00:30:43,842 --> 00:30:44,884
INGRID: Just, yeah, exactly.
443
00:30:50,557 --> 00:30:53,560
NARRATOR: Ingrid and Kinahave found many similarities
444
00:30:53,643 --> 00:30:57,063
between New Zealandand South Africa.
445
00:31:00,233 --> 00:31:04,737
In both places,the orca alreadyhave a taste
446
00:31:04,821 --> 00:31:07,198
for sevengill sharks.
447
00:31:10,034 --> 00:31:14,455
But after the orca killed fivegreat whites in South Africa,
448
00:31:14,539 --> 00:31:17,959
all the other whitesharks disappeared.
449
00:31:18,835 --> 00:31:22,130
In New Zealand,all of these sharks
450
00:31:22,213 --> 00:31:26,009
are still here and hunting.
451
00:31:34,601 --> 00:31:37,770
Then, like a boltfrom the blue,
452
00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:42,191
Kina and Ingrid finally seewhat they've been looking for.
453
00:31:42,275 --> 00:31:43,318
INGRID: Wow!
454
00:31:44,527 --> 00:31:46,404
That didn't look
like shark bites.
455
00:31:47,572 --> 00:31:48,907
KINA: That really is phenomenal!
456
00:31:55,580 --> 00:31:59,334
NARRATOR: Kina andIngrid are observinglocal white shark behavior,
457
00:31:59,417 --> 00:32:03,630
when a male witha wound catches their eye.
458
00:32:06,925 --> 00:32:08,426
KINA: Wow!
459
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,138
One has got big, white
rake marks on his dorsal.
460
00:32:13,514 --> 00:32:16,100
INGRID: They didn't
look like shark bites.
461
00:32:17,435 --> 00:32:19,562
Should have a look and see
if it's orca bite marks!
462
00:32:21,189 --> 00:32:22,482
KINA: You're right!
That's interesting.
463
00:32:22,982 --> 00:32:25,526
I'll try to get some
close shots of it, so
we can have a look
464
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:28,029
later on, see if we can
figure out what they are.
465
00:32:28,821 --> 00:32:30,239
INGRID: It's coming up on
your left, right there, Kina.
466
00:32:31,616 --> 00:32:32,867
The one with the rake marks.
467
00:32:37,288 --> 00:32:40,541
That's the guy we want.
We just want him to come
in a bit closer, eh?
468
00:32:46,965 --> 00:32:49,759
NARRATOR: An unusual mark ona white shark's dorsal fin
469
00:32:49,842 --> 00:32:52,303
looks like a bite.
470
00:32:53,888 --> 00:32:56,975
INGRID: He's just
swum towards the bow.
471
00:32:57,475 --> 00:33:00,937
He's just coming down
the port side of the
boat at the moment.
472
00:33:04,649 --> 00:33:06,150
Coming in close now.
473
00:33:13,282 --> 00:33:14,283
Wow!
474
00:33:14,409 --> 00:33:17,078
Those rake marks look
really distinctive.
475
00:33:26,004 --> 00:33:27,588
KINA: What were those
rake marks on the fin?
476
00:33:27,672 --> 00:33:28,715
That was fascinating.
477
00:33:28,798 --> 00:33:29,882
INGRID: Yeah.
478
00:33:29,966 --> 00:33:32,260
KINA: They were quite wide
apart and very straight,
479
00:33:32,343 --> 00:33:33,386
which was interesting.
480
00:33:33,469 --> 00:33:34,470
INGRID (off-screen): Yes.
481
00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:36,472
KINA (off-screen): And
those were uniform. That
was something new to me.
482
00:33:36,556 --> 00:33:37,765
INGRID: Yeah.
483
00:33:37,849 --> 00:33:39,434
And it looks very similar to
what I see in the stingrays
484
00:33:39,517 --> 00:33:41,477
when the orca have
been biting them.
485
00:33:41,561 --> 00:33:44,147
You know, you get these
sort of like someone's
raked the garden,
486
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:45,815
but it's teeth rake marks,
487
00:33:45,898 --> 00:33:47,984
and that's what it
looked like to me.
488
00:33:52,572 --> 00:33:54,657
Yeah, so let me
show you these.
489
00:33:54,741 --> 00:33:59,996
This is a picture
of an orca's teeth.
490
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:01,748
See how the teeth
curve backwards?
491
00:34:01,831 --> 00:34:04,792
And so here, this is a close
up of these teeth marks,
492
00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:08,296
and this is what I think we
saw on that great white shark.
493
00:34:08,379 --> 00:34:09,756
KINA (off-screen):
Yeah, amazing.
494
00:34:12,383 --> 00:34:14,260
INGRID: And when you look
at the scale on here.
495
00:34:14,343 --> 00:34:15,678
KINA: Same thing, that was
what we saw on that shark!
496
00:34:15,762 --> 00:34:17,055
INGRID: Matched
with what we saw.
Yeah.
497
00:34:17,138 --> 00:34:19,932
So if I had to put money on it,
I would say it was orca.
498
00:34:20,016 --> 00:34:21,642
KINA (off-screen):
Well, I certainly can't
think of anything else,
499
00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:22,852
and that is pretty phenomenal.
500
00:34:22,935 --> 00:34:24,395
INGRID (off-screen): Sure.
501
00:34:24,479 --> 00:34:26,147
KINA (off-screen): This
could well be the evidence
we're looking for.
502
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:28,941
NARRATOR: The bite markscould be a breakthrough.
503
00:34:29,025 --> 00:34:32,111
The first visible sign oforca-on-white shark predation
504
00:34:32,195 --> 00:34:33,863
they've seen.
505
00:34:38,701 --> 00:34:42,497
Ingrid and Kina devise anexperiment that will use sound
506
00:34:42,580 --> 00:34:44,373
instead of sight.
507
00:34:44,457 --> 00:34:46,542
INGRID: Orca use a range
of different sounds.
508
00:34:46,626 --> 00:34:49,337
They use clicks
for echolocation,
509
00:34:49,420 --> 00:34:52,006
they use whistles and
pulsed calls when
510
00:34:52,090 --> 00:34:53,925
they're communicating.
511
00:34:54,008 --> 00:34:55,885
It's really impressive.
512
00:34:56,803 --> 00:34:59,305
NARRATOR: So they'll userecorded whale sounds and
513
00:34:59,388 --> 00:35:01,682
observe how the sharks react.
514
00:35:04,185 --> 00:35:07,271
KINA (off-screen): It's a
little known fact about
great white sharks that
515
00:35:07,355 --> 00:35:09,857
they actually have
amazing hearing.
516
00:35:10,942 --> 00:35:14,946
So I think if the great white
sharks react to orca sounds,
517
00:35:15,029 --> 00:35:17,782
that might mean that
they've met them before.
518
00:35:17,865 --> 00:35:21,369
How they react could
possibly even tell us,
519
00:35:21,452 --> 00:35:25,081
whether that experience
was hunting, or otherwise.
520
00:35:25,164 --> 00:35:29,127
So this experiment is going
to be very interesting.
521
00:35:31,337 --> 00:35:33,047
NARRATOR: They mountan underwater speaker
522
00:35:33,131 --> 00:35:34,882
on the dive cage.
523
00:35:34,966 --> 00:35:38,928
The plan, play soundsfrom several otherkinds of whales first.
524
00:35:39,011 --> 00:35:40,221
INGRID: Here you go.
525
00:35:40,304 --> 00:35:41,556
NARRATOR: To try anddraw the sharks in.
526
00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:42,932
INGRID (off-screen):
Oh, that's perfect.
527
00:35:43,015 --> 00:35:44,934
NARRATOR: Once white sharksare around the cage,
528
00:35:45,017 --> 00:35:49,272
Ingrid will play the soundsof New Zealand orcas hunting.
529
00:35:49,355 --> 00:35:50,606
KINA: Done.
530
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:54,402
It will be interesting to see
if they are actually scared of
531
00:35:54,485 --> 00:35:57,071
orca or if they, you know,
if they know what it's like
532
00:35:57,155 --> 00:35:58,156
to be scared of something!
533
00:36:03,578 --> 00:36:06,289
♪ ♪
534
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,506
INGRID: Do you copy me, Kina?
535
00:36:16,090 --> 00:36:19,010
KINA: Roger, Ingrid,
loud and clear.
536
00:36:19,677 --> 00:36:20,970
I guess we're good to go!
537
00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:24,348
INGRID: Well, look I'm gonna
start playing the first set
538
00:36:24,432 --> 00:36:25,516
of sounds now.
539
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,311
This is the humpback whale
calls that you recorded.
540
00:36:28,895 --> 00:36:30,688
KINA: Roger that.
Go right ahead.
541
00:36:35,359 --> 00:36:37,528
(humpback whale singing over PA)
542
00:36:37,612 --> 00:36:41,866
NARRATOR: This ishumpback whale song,
543
00:36:41,949 --> 00:36:46,621
and possibly a greatwhite dinner bell.
544
00:36:48,372 --> 00:36:51,000
White sharks are knownto hunt whale calves
545
00:36:51,083 --> 00:36:53,044
in the tropical pacific.
546
00:36:55,463 --> 00:36:58,841
KINA: Well, that certainly got
a couple of people interested!
547
00:36:59,759 --> 00:37:02,595
(humpback whale singing over PA)
548
00:37:10,144 --> 00:37:14,065
Oh, yep, all of a sudden
we've got three sharks
right on top of us.
549
00:37:17,902 --> 00:37:21,072
NARRATOR: The circling greatwhites begin to rush the
550
00:37:21,155 --> 00:37:22,865
speaker and the cage.
551
00:37:26,410 --> 00:37:27,703
KINA: The sharks are just
552
00:37:27,787 --> 00:37:32,250
all over the cage, and all over
the side that the speaker's on.
553
00:37:32,333 --> 00:37:36,671
It's hard not to think that
they're reacting to that sound,
to be honest.
554
00:37:41,467 --> 00:37:45,721
♪ ♪
555
00:37:53,145 --> 00:37:55,022
(humpback whale singing over PA)
556
00:37:57,775 --> 00:37:58,818
Wow!
557
00:37:59,277 --> 00:38:02,530
Ingrid, we've
just got that, uh,
558
00:38:02,613 --> 00:38:08,661
shark with the two big
rake marks on its
dorsal fin back again!
559
00:38:10,496 --> 00:38:11,914
Look at that!
560
00:38:17,086 --> 00:38:21,632
♪ ♪
561
00:38:24,051 --> 00:38:26,470
NARRATOR: The sharks areclearly responding to the
562
00:38:26,554 --> 00:38:28,389
humpback whale sounds.
563
00:38:28,472 --> 00:38:32,435
The question is, how willthey react to the sound
564
00:38:32,518 --> 00:38:35,313
of New Zealand killer whales?
565
00:38:41,819 --> 00:38:44,238
NARRATOR: Ingrid Visser andKina Scollay want to see how
566
00:38:44,322 --> 00:38:48,242
great whites react to thesounds of hunting orca.
567
00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:53,831
First, as a test, theyplay humpback whale song.
568
00:38:56,417 --> 00:38:59,170
The sharks comestraight to the sound.
569
00:39:03,716 --> 00:39:04,800
KINA: Whoa!
570
00:39:05,634 --> 00:39:07,803
NARRATOR: Including theshark with the bite marks
571
00:39:07,887 --> 00:39:09,388
on its dorsal fin.
572
00:39:13,851 --> 00:39:16,687
They have to wait a fewminutes for the sharks to
573
00:39:16,771 --> 00:39:20,024
settle down after thehumpback reaction.
574
00:39:23,194 --> 00:39:24,653
INGRID: Now I'm just gonna
play you the sounds from the
575
00:39:24,737 --> 00:39:27,990
orca that eat the salmon,
I recorded these guys off
576
00:39:28,074 --> 00:39:29,158
North America.
577
00:39:29,241 --> 00:39:30,242
Standby.
578
00:39:40,544 --> 00:39:42,004
(orca calls over PA)
579
00:39:42,088 --> 00:39:43,297
INGRID (over radio):Can you hear that?
580
00:39:43,756 --> 00:39:45,216
KINA: Loud and clear.
581
00:39:52,264 --> 00:39:55,684
Ingrid, it's really
interesting. I-
582
00:39:55,768 --> 00:39:58,521
To be honest, I can't
see much difference
583
00:39:58,604 --> 00:40:01,816
in the shark behavior
here at all, over.
584
00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:10,783
Not much has
changed down here.
585
00:40:14,078 --> 00:40:16,414
INGRID (off-screen): Yeah,
well, I guess that doesn't
really surprise me
586
00:40:16,497 --> 00:40:18,541
given that these are
the fish-eating orca.
587
00:40:18,624 --> 00:40:23,796
NARRATOR: The sharksappear unresponsive to theNorth American orca calls
588
00:40:23,879 --> 00:40:26,257
but these sounds havenever been heard
589
00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:28,217
before in New Zealand.
590
00:40:29,135 --> 00:40:32,179
INGRID: Yeah, Kina, so
now I'm gonna play you
the New Zealand orca.
591
00:40:33,264 --> 00:40:35,516
These are probably the ones
that the great whites have
592
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:36,892
heard before.
593
00:40:37,643 --> 00:40:38,894
INGRID (off-screen): Stand by.
594
00:40:42,273 --> 00:40:46,110
(orca calls over PA)
595
00:40:51,115 --> 00:40:53,409
(orca calls over PA)
596
00:40:57,663 --> 00:41:01,125
KINA: Just skirted off towards
the side of the boat there.
597
00:41:04,962 --> 00:41:07,047
I can't say for sure, but
598
00:41:07,131 --> 00:41:08,799
right now, I can't see
599
00:41:08,883 --> 00:41:10,134
any sharks at all.
600
00:41:11,969 --> 00:41:14,138
NARRATOR: The sharksresponse was clearly to
601
00:41:14,221 --> 00:41:16,557
move away from the sound.
602
00:41:23,814 --> 00:41:25,691
KINA: That's a huge female!
603
00:41:28,527 --> 00:41:30,863
But she's just not
approaching the cage.
604
00:41:33,491 --> 00:41:37,203
Way out across the bottom,
I keep seeing these shapes.
605
00:41:37,286 --> 00:41:39,413
Big sharks cruising past.
606
00:41:41,874 --> 00:41:44,835
The sharks are there,
but they just don't
seem to be interested
607
00:41:44,919 --> 00:41:46,462
in coming anywhere near us.
608
00:41:48,714 --> 00:41:51,342
NARRATOR: Ingrid and Kinaobserve that the sharks keep
609
00:41:51,425 --> 00:41:54,220
the source of theorca sounds in sight.
610
00:41:55,054 --> 00:41:57,681
But stay well out of the way.
611
00:42:00,684 --> 00:42:03,812
KINA: It is hard to know
what's going on, but, um.
612
00:42:05,105 --> 00:42:06,774
Yeah, interesting.
613
00:42:16,283 --> 00:42:18,035
INGRID (off-screen):
How was that, mate?
614
00:42:18,118 --> 00:42:21,121
KINA: Yeah, well, another
awesome dive down here
but interesting.
615
00:42:21,205 --> 00:42:23,916
We've only really
had a glimpse, eh?
616
00:42:23,999 --> 00:42:26,961
NARRATOR: The orca soundschanged the behavior of
617
00:42:27,044 --> 00:42:28,546
the white sharks.
618
00:42:28,629 --> 00:42:31,674
From fearlessly coming intothe sounds of the humpbacks,
619
00:42:31,757 --> 00:42:35,970
to moving off and keepingtheir distance when they heard
620
00:42:36,053 --> 00:42:38,389
hunting orca.
621
00:42:40,641 --> 00:42:43,978
But was this a typicalanimal reaction to danger?
622
00:42:44,061 --> 00:42:46,855
INGRID: You know, when you
think about the bite marks
623
00:42:46,939 --> 00:42:48,649
that we saw that
could've been the orca,
624
00:42:48,732 --> 00:42:52,361
and you saw the way that the
great white sharks, you know,
625
00:42:52,444 --> 00:42:54,780
there was a bit of a reaction
there but not full on.
626
00:42:54,863 --> 00:42:58,367
KINA: Obviously, we'd have
to do this a lot of times to
be able to say for sure.
627
00:42:58,450 --> 00:42:59,660
INGRID: Yeah.
628
00:42:59,743 --> 00:43:02,830
KINA: But maybe actually
the sharks aren't so
scared of orca.
629
00:43:02,913 --> 00:43:05,040
INGRID: Well, maybe New Zealand
sharks are more
630
00:43:05,124 --> 00:43:07,376
exposed to it like even from
when they are little sharks,
631
00:43:07,459 --> 00:43:10,713
and so they just become
habituated to it.
632
00:43:10,796 --> 00:43:16,010
NARRATOR: When orcakilled five white sharksin South Africa in 2017,
633
00:43:16,093 --> 00:43:18,137
many scientistsbelieved it was a
634
00:43:18,220 --> 00:43:20,014
first for the region.
635
00:43:20,097 --> 00:43:23,559
But is it possible that whitesharks have been fending off
636
00:43:23,642 --> 00:43:26,437
orca attacks forthousands of years?
637
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,733
And what we see are only themost recent incidents in an
638
00:43:30,816 --> 00:43:33,611
ancient and on-going battle?
639
00:43:34,445 --> 00:43:36,864
INGRID: I guess the big
thing for me is, you know,
640
00:43:36,947 --> 00:43:39,033
how far are these orca going?
641
00:43:39,116 --> 00:43:41,869
We've got some evidence that
suggests that they are at
642
00:43:41,952 --> 00:43:44,997
least trying to have a
nibble on them, but, uh,
643
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,667
you know I'm, I'm
curious to know just how
far they've taken it.
644
00:43:50,836 --> 00:43:53,839
NARRATOR: So far, there havebeen no reported serial shark
645
00:43:53,922 --> 00:43:56,008
attacks in New Zealand.
646
00:43:57,176 --> 00:43:59,762
But here on the farside of the world,
647
00:43:59,845 --> 00:44:04,725
the unseen struggle betweenorca and white shark goes on,
648
00:44:05,059 --> 00:44:07,728
in secret, for now.
649
00:44:07,811 --> 00:44:09,813
Captioned by
Cotter Media Group.
53445
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