Original subtitles

I was doing this show in Brooklyn ‐‐

in Brooklyn, diverse Brooklyn!

This kid comes up to me and he’s like,

"Dude, I think you’re really funny.

That’s a big deal coming from me.

I don’t usually find ethnic comedy funny."

I was like, "Why would you say that to my face?

You could’ve tweeted that.

Why...

Why are you hurting me in real time?

Why is this happening right now?"

Ethnic comedy? What does ethnic comedy mean?

It’s not like my whole act is,

"Hey, brown people look like this.

Hold up.

White people, they look like that!"

[ Laughter ]

I’ll take your laughs, nonetheless.

I mean...

Thank ‐‐ Oh, that’s a racist Apu joke in Denver.

Boulder just went up another notch,

just like that.

I know you from high school, even though I don’t.

You’re the reason I do comedy, sir.

You’re the reason I thought to myself,

"Nobody like us exists except this cartoon character.

I’m gonna show up,

and I’m gonna be the best [bleep] comic in the country,

and I’m gonna make less than I deserve in Denver."

♪

28 years later, and the words "Thank you, come again"

still follow me wherever I go.

Hey, my name is Hari Konadabolu,

and I’m a stand up comic in Brooklyn, New York.

I’m the son of two immigrants from India who,

despite me being a stand up comic,

are still alive.

My brother Ashok and I grew up in Queens.

Here is a picture of us pretending to have Christmas.

I’ve had a great career filled with laughter,

critical acclaim,

and me shaking the hands

of many famous white men on television.

I should be completely happy.

But there’s still one man who haunts me ‐‐

Apu Nahasapeemapetilon.

Serving the customer is merriment enough for me.

Thank you, come again.

Hey, Ganesha. Want a peanut?

Please do not offer my God a peanut.

You’re stealing wishes?

Please pay for your purchases and get out and come again!

Oh, look.

It is encrusted with filth.

Oh, well.

Let’s sell it anyway.

Now, this is just between me and you.

♪

[ Cheering ]

Hari Konadabolu, everybody! Hari Konadabolu!

Hari: I publicly declared my war on Apu in 2012

on the FX show,

"Totally Biased with W. Kamau Bell."

I did a piece about Indian‐Americans in the media.

We’ve had an amazing run the last few years

with more Indians in the public eye than ever before.

There’s, like, 14 of us now.

[ Laughter ]

There’s now enough Indian people where I don’t need to like you

just because you’re Indian.

Because growing up,

I had no choice but to like this.

[ Audience groans ]

Yeah.

[ Laughter ]

This all started because you asked me

to do a piece on your old television show,

"Totally Biased," when I used to write for it.

You said, "If you don’t do this,

I will fire you." [ Laughs ]

And I’m like, "You know what?

That’s ‐‐ that is... That’s good advice.

That’s good advice." That’s good advice.

I couldn’t imagine anybody

wanting to hear about Indian representation.

As soon as people got what you were doing,

and it wasn’t like it was an all Southasian audience,

but it was an audience who understood about representation.

And it was, like, the pop of like,

"Yes, we know exactly what you’re talking about.

We’re ready. Take us on the journey."

Apu ‐‐ a cartoon character

voiced by Hank Azaria, a white guy.

[ Laughter ]

A white guy doing an impression

of a white guy making fun of my father.

[ Laughter ]

If ‐‐

If I saw Hank Azaria do that voice at a party,

I would kick the [bleep] out of him.

[ Applause, cheers ]

Yeah.

Or I’d imagine kicking the [bleep] out of him.

Now, I realize some of you think I’m some annoying

P. C. social‐justice warrior

that’s very sensitive and is obsessed

with a 28‐year‐old cartoon character.

You’re probably thinking, "Come on, snowflake.

Let it go."

Well, I have let it go...

for 28 years.

♪

Look, man. I don’t hate "The Simpsons."

In fact, I have always loved "The Simpsons."

It’s one of the main reasons that I knew you could be smart

and funny and political at the same time.

It taught me about Pablo Neruda

and Gore Vidal

and Stanley Kubrick.

It shaped me into the person and the comedian

that I am today.

And, yes, I know Apu is one of

the smartest characters on "The Simpsons."

Granted, the bar isn’t very high.

[ Belches ]

But that’s not why people liked him.

They just liked his accent.

I never heard anyone say they liked Apu

because he exposed the idiocy

and bigotry of Americans

and the struggles of the average immigrant.

No.

It was just, "I love Apu.

That voice is hilarious."

Pardon me, but I would like to see this money spent

on more police officers.

I have been shot eight times this year.

And as a result, I almost missed work.

I hate Apu.

Hate Apu? Hate Apu.

And because of that, I dislike "The Simpsons."

Wow, the whole series?

Yeah.

The whole series? Yeah.

I love "The Simpsons."

I just don’t love that character but the whole thing?

I have never been able to divorce the two.

I love "The Simpsons" because...

You hate yourself. ...’cause I comple‐‐

This whole film is me trying

to get over the fact I hate myself.

How many of you were bullied in any capacity as a child?

‐Are we raising hands? ‐Yeah, raising hands.

We’ll do the hands thing. Yeah. Okay.

Now, how many had to deal with, like,

being called Apu or that being referenced.

I’m driving with my dad as a little kid,

and someone goes like, "Bing, bing!"

They say like, "Oh, hey," ‐‐

and they’re doing, like, the Indian voice ‐‐

like, "Hey, I need to get another Slurpee.

Can you tell me where the Kwik‐E‐Mart is?

Thank you, come again!" And they drive off.

I remember in seventh grade, actually, being bullied

by this guy who would speak to me,

actually, with Apu’s accent

or the accent that he thought all Indians spoke with.

Pancholy: We lived next to, like, 7‐Eleven.

And there was always, like, a sense of like,

"Oh, please don’t let it be an Indian person

working behind the counter because if it is,

my friends are gonna do, like, the Apu thing."

I just would wonder how many Indian‐American,

Southasian‐Americans,

have had to deal with this.

This [bleep] guy, this Apu,

this one character created

so many problems

psychologically, emotionally, for so many people.

They didn’t mean for it to happen.

We just were underrepresented, and so we struggled.

And the kind of racism that made Apu possible in Hollywood

still exists everywhere.

Apu represents an America that makes fun of immigrants

and anyone who is not white.

Yes, trolls, I know.

They’re yellow.

My mission is to figure out how we ended up with Apu

and how we can get rid of him.

And I think I know someone who might be able to help us.

Hari: 1989 was a big year.

The Berlin Wall fell.

Billy Joel claimed he didn’t start a fire.

I got the chicken pox.

But most relevant for this film,

"The Simpsons" was created

and my life was never the same.

Can you give us a brief history of "The Simpsons"?

There was a brand‐new network, Fox,

and they were desperate for content.

And they needed content that no one else was doing,

that would sell, and that was a little controversial.

Why, you little!

But they were funny and smart, and they looked really weird.

No one had really seen animation like this on ‐‐

on network TV before.

"The Simpsons" were huge.

They were everywhere.

T‐shirts, toys,

candy bar commercials,

chicken commercials,

car commercials,

and even bizarre car commercials from France.

They were an international phenomenon.

And you’re a huge "Simpsons" fan.

Um, yeah.

It was something that I grew up with,

and it was something that was always on the TV

when I came home from school.

Did you guys grow up watching "The Simpsons"?

Absolutely. I love that show.

I loved that you could watch the episodes again and again,

and you would always get a joke that you missed the first time.

What do you love about "The Simpsons"?

Probably its humor. It’s pretty unique.

It just represents everything about humanity,

I think, but in a funny aspect.

And you know, America went through a time

when "The Simpsons" owned America.

I remember when that was appointment television,

where if you didn’t see "The Simpsons" on Sunday,

you couldn’t have a conversation on Monday with some people.

Yeah. It was also edgy. It was edgy at the time. Yeah.

La‐la‐la‐la‐la‐la‐la! Ha! Ha!

La‐la‐la! Ha! ha! La‐la‐la‐la!

Stop him!

He’s expressing his faith, eh?

The thing is, is that "The Simpsons"

stereotypes all races.

They stereotype the alcoholic, the deadbeat dad,

the "F"‐up kid, the over‐achieving daughter.

They stereotype Italians, Chinese, Japanese.

They spare no expense.

The problem is, is we didn’t have

any other representation in this country.

There was no Aziz, no Mindy, no Kal,

no that dude who was on "Lost,"

and that other dude from "Heroes,"

and that dude that’s in the Apu documentary.

No politicians or reporters,

and no whatever Deepak Chopra is.

This is all we had.

Apu reflected how America viewed us ‐‐

servile...

devious...

goofy.

And that creates a problem

when the most popular show on television,

which it was,

is showing mainstream America

what an Indian is. Right.

And it’s a potbellied dude who can’t speak English,

has zero ‐‐ is an idiot, basically.

So, where did this walking stereotype come from?

I mean, other than the gates of hell.

I read somewhere that Apu,

they originally did not want to make him

and Indian convenience store owner

because they thought it was too much of a stereotype.

It’s completely untrue.

Right away they were like, "Can you do an Indian voice,

and how offensive can you make it," basically.

Really? [ Laughter ]

I literally ‐‐

I would, immediately began to talk this way and...

And I was like, "It’s not tremendously accurate.

It’s a little... stereotype."

They’re like, "Meh, it’s all right."

So, Hank Azaria, a brilliant voice‐over actor

who does many of "The Simpsons" characters,

is told to do this stereotypical voice by producers.

Or was he?

Reiss: Apu, he was not intended to be a character.

He was called "clerk." Man: Mm‐hmm.

He had one line, "35 cents, please."

And I wrote in the script, "He is not an Indian."

’Cause I said, "That is a comedy cliché."

I see, yeah.

And we get to the table reading, and Hank Azaria goes,

[ Bad Indian accent ] "35 cents, please."

[ Normal voice ] And it got this giant laugh,

and, suddenly, Apu was an Indian.

[ Laughing ] "35 cents, please."

Man, that is some brilliant comedy writing.

[ Fog horn blares ]

So, what I do know for sure is

that a white dude created a stereotypical Indian voice,

and a bunch of white writers in a room laughed

at said stereotypical Indian voice.

And this led to the creation of my childhood bully

and a walking insult to my parents.

Are you sure you want a child, Apu?

You know I do.

I mean, there comes a time in a man’s life

when he asks himself,

"Who will float my corpse down the Ganges?"

So, that’s you guys.

[ Clears throat ]

Today, you look like Apu today, somewhat.

No, that’s not funny. Why do I look like Apu today?

The hair, I think.

‐Apu hair. ‐Apu hair!

I don’t have Apu hair.

Hey, Apu.

Apu hair.

[ Both laugh ]

When you see that character, do either of you identify

with that character in any way?

No.

I don’t think so.

Does it bother you at all that it’s a white actor

that does the voice of Apu?

Hank Azaria is a talented guy.

They paid him, he did it. And he did it good.

Why do you think you tolerate this kind of stuff

more than we would?

First of all, we came here.

We had to succeed, no matter what.

It doesn’t mean that we are not offended by it.

Why do you feel like we don’t tolerate it?

Times have changed.

You have security, and you belong here.

You’re an American.

So, "Simpsons" creator Matt Groening makes

this Indian store clerk a series regular,

and names him Apu Nahasapeemapetilon.

But where does the name come from?

Well, his last name, Nahasapeemapetilon,

comes from the Sanskrit word for [bleep].

And his first name, well, I’ll let Matt explain

why he chose "Apu."

Groening: I named Apu after the trilogy,

the Apu Trilogy by Satyajit Ray.

And I highly recommend this series of movies ‐‐

fantastic landmarks in world cinema.

Hari: Can you tell us what the Apu Trilogy is?

The Apu Trilogy is the story of it’s hero,

a young boy named Apu,

who we follow over the course of three films.

You see in the course of his life both a young man

grow up and actually deepen,

but also, you see the modernization of India.

As someone who’s a scholar of Ray,

who knows those films very well,

how do you feel about that choice?

His story’s the story of a multidimensional human being

who grows living through pain and tragedy and beauty.

And to have that name then be associated with the Apu

of the convenience store,

of course, is such a huge diminishment.

♪

[ Screams ]

Hari: And even though Matt Groening

created "The Simpsons,"

it’s Hank Azaria who does the voice

and can literally silence Apu.

I was feeling hopeful I could get Hank to speak to me,

especially since he had spoken about this once before

in a Huffington Post article from 2013,

entitled, "Is It Time to Retire Apu?"

by Mallika Rao.

When you spoke to Hank Azaria, was there a defensiveness?

For the first time, he wants to talk about

how he feels uncomfortable with the voice.

Did he do Apu over the phone?

He did briefly.

He‐He talked about how the voice is very musical.

He did the accent.

He mentioned you ‐‐

Well, he didn’t know your name,

but he said that there was an Indian comic

who he’d seen a video of, who just went off on Apu.

Had he not thought about it until he saw my bit?

Right. He hadn’t, so...

So, for, like, 20 ‐‐ At that point, maybe, like,

21, 22 years,

he had not thought about it?

He hadn’t thought about it

from the perspective of a real Apu,

and real Indian person.

So Hank has thought about this.

And if I got to Hank before, I’m sure I can get to him again.

♪

Hari: To understand my quest to get rid of Apu,

you need to understand the complicated

and diverse experiences

of Southasian‐Americans in this country.

♪

I spent the first nine years of my life

in Jackson Heights, Queens ‐‐

the most diverse part of the most diverse borough

of the most diverse city in the world.

It is my favorite place

and every white supremacist’s nightmare.

I grew up near 74th Street in what’s called "Little India."

But to be fair, this isn’t actually Little India.

It’s more Little Southasia ’cause you have people

from all over the region here,

whether that be India or Pakistan

or Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal,

Buton, or the Maldives,

and sometimes Tibet and Afghanistan.

The borders kind of change depending on political reasons

or who the U. S. is bombing

at that particular moment.

Afghanistan has since been moved to the Middle East.

But all these countries have different make ups, right?

They have different languages and cultures and religions.

But when you grow up in this country,

it doesn’t really matter

’cause you’re still gonna be called Apu.

Well, look! It is Mr. Homer, my favorite customer.

Please, feel free to paw through my Playdudes

and tell me to go back

to some country I am not actually from.

He sort of does the stand‐in work

for a lot of different kinds of issues

related to immigration and race.

Every time there was a certain kind of focus

on Apu’s character in relationship

to some kind of universal norm,

the way in which they talked about it was usually

in a particular stereotypical way.

If there was an episode that was on marriage,

Apu, of course, had to have the arranged marriage.

Then it is agreed.

Your third daughter will marry our first son.

If there was an episode on having children,

then Apu had to have eight children.

My whaaaat?

Stereotypes have a long half‐life.

They tend to last for a while

unless we are committed to

and good at telling our own story.

Is it weird that we’re talking about Indian stereotypes

and you’re an Indian doctor?

Is that strange in the slightest to you?

Hari: But getting an honest story

into the mainstream is incredibly difficult.

Good morning... It’s Wednesday!

Or Hump Day, according to Jizzy and the Wiz

on 102.7, "The Octopus,"

Rancho Cucamonga’s number‐one all‐’80s rock station!

Rao: This is a father‐son story.

This is really about how you dealt with these two cultures ‐‐

this Indian household that were living in

and this American culture that you were now a part of.

We were in a meeting at Fox one day,

and everybody had to stand up

and say what their role was on the pilot.

So, "Hi, I’m so‐and‐so. I’m Executive Producer."

"Hi, I’m so‐and‐so. I’m the script supervisor."

I stood up and I go, "Hi, Rohitash Rao, and I’m Indian."

That’s all I had to say,

’cause I was the only one in the room

that could say that. Ooh.

And I looked around the room and I’m like,

"What are we getting into?

How are we making an Indian show right now?"

Like, "How are we together?

How is this gonna work?"

And from that moment, I’m like, "I think we’re [bleep]"

There’s this idea that, okay, well,

if there’s four white people, anybody will watch it.

That’s mainstream. That’s accessible. Right.

But if it’s four Asian people or four black people,

it becomes like, "Oh, this is a black show,"

or, "This is a black movie."

I guess it just boils down to, like, why is it that

when there’s a show full of white people,

that’s considered okay and mainstream?

Right. If it’s funny and interesting,

I don’t really care who’s in it, you know.

We watch animated movies that are about fish.

[ Chuckling ] Right.

What bothered me most about Apu

was the way he stood in for my parents,

replacing their real stories, their real struggles,

and their really complicated lives

with a [bleep] accent.

My dad was an English major, so his command

of the English language was ridiculous.

And so he wanted to be a writer.

My dad wrote, sent in his application,

and, you know, they see "Eric Peters"

and they read it and how well written it is,

They’re like, "Oh, perfect.

Let’s bring this guy in." My dad walked in.

My dad looked very much like you.

They’re like, "Sorry, sir. The job’s been filled."

And then he just had to take a job as a meat inspector

for the rest of his life, you know.

My mom, who grew up in a middle‐class family,

but that was very ‐‐ in a society

that was very male‐dominated in India

and about what it took for her to get her own education.

When I was growing up, I found it really embarrassing

that my dad wanted to spend so much time with us

to the point where my dad became

the baseball coach of my little league team.

My dad didn’t know baseball. He knew cricket.

So, he would teach us how to play cricket.

[ Chuckles ]

So, we’re trying to swing a bat

like a golf club, you know?

Telling the pitcher to bounce the ball over.

Yeah, look back, and I realize it was only

because it was out of love.

He wanted to spend time with his son.

That’s why he did it.

At the same time, I should say, we were a pretty good team

because we could catch with our bare hands.

[ Laughs ] Like, we got to be pretty good.

Our parents are heroes.

And there are millions of other immigrants like them

how came over in the face of incredible uncertainty,

taking incredible risk,

to build a life in a new country.

♪

Racist depictions of minority groups

is as American as...racism.

From advertising to political cartoons

to vaudeville to...

Meet me at the zoo in the morning at 9:00.

Yeah, with the rest of the monkeys?

With the rest of the monkeys.

Yeah, I’ll bring my grandpa with me.

Dear God!

I decided I needed to talk to an expert on the matter,

someone with an EGOT.

[ Sips ]

Can you define minstrelsy and briefly discuss,

like, the history of minstrelsy?

Minstrel shows began

when white people decided

they wanted to be able to do the cake walk.

Because there were not black folks on stage,

so white people dressed as black people

and put on the blackface.

I wanted to ask you

about your collection of black Americana.

You have a very large personal collection.

I call it Negrobilia.

A lot of racist imagery. Mm‐hmm.

It’s blackface. Yeah.

It’s clearly stuff that was made to mock black people.

I don’t even think it was that deep.

Really? Yeah.

I have this thing from the Coon Chicken Inn.

That was the name of a restaurant.

I don’t think they were thinking,

"Oh, we gonna get ’em now!" [ Laughs ]

I think they were like, "That’s funny."

What else is in the collection?

One of my favorite is a German postcard.

There’s a little white girl, a little white boy,

and this other little blackface is in the middle.

And she says to him,

"Lick him and see if he’s chocolate."

[ Gasps ]

If you’ve never seen black people...

we look chocolate.

So, you’re telling me there might’ve been

an epidemic at some point,

where people were licking black people to see

if they tasted like chocolate? Yeah.

And if you played your cards right,

you could make it work for you, too.

[ Laughs ]

And I’m a big believer in facing it.

You’ve got to see what it was.

So that’s why you have the collection. Yeah.

But it doesn’t horrify you when you see it?

No, no. No. Not at all?

No, because when you deal with ignorance,

how can you be pissed off?

They don’t know any better.

They’re trying to make a living.

They’re making cookie jars.

Hari: But Hank isn’t ignorant.

He knows there’s a problem with Apu,

yet he still does this.

[ As Apu ] Remember, please, children, that in life,

there is nothing that is not so disgusting

that it cannot be sold on a heated roller

at a nearly criminal mark‐up.

[ Laughter ]

Based on your definition of minstrelsy,

does Apu count as a minstrel

since it’s brown paint,

a white guy’s voice?

I would say so,

but he’s not singing and dancing, is he?

Aah!

♪ Who needs the Kwik‐E‐Mart ♪

♪ Now, here’s the tricky part ♪

♪ Oh, won’t you rhyme with me? ♪

Yeah, there’s ‐‐ there’s ‐‐

Okay, then, he’s in the minstrel show, too.

[ Laughs ]

If he’s singing and dancing, he’s in.

He has all the qualifications.

He has all the qualifications.

Maybe if Hank realized Apu is no different than this

or this...

or this,

he might, I don’t know, stop.

We needed to talk to Hank Azaria.

And, luckily, I have agents.

Hey, man. It’s Hari. Agent: Hey, Hari.

Yeah, I was just wondering if we have any news about Hank,

like, if anyone has said anything from his camp

about, like, doing the film.

Yeah, check your e‐mail. You sent me an e‐mail?

Uh‐huh. You’re gonna want to read it.

Okay, so, it’s a forward from his publicist.

"Hank wanted me to pass this article on to you."

And it’s the same Huff‐Po article

that me and him were both quoted in,

like, three years ago.

So he’s, basically, saying that

he doesn’t want to do the film

and he’s not gonna talk about it anymore.

You okay? No, I’m fine.

You sure? No, I’m okay.

No, I’m okay. I’m fine.

Look, we’ll give him a beep... Yeah.

...and we’ll figure out the next steps.

Okay. Bye.

♪

[ Banging, rattling ]

Hari: [bleep] [bleep] [bleep]

[Bleep]

♪

Hari: Well, it’s been months,

and Hank Azaria appears to be ignoring my requests

to talk about Apu on camera.

If I don’t get him to retire the voice,

this whole thing is a failure!

And by thing, I might possibly mean my career.

So I decided to "Politically Re‐Active,"

my podcast with Kamau,

to sic my fans on Hank.

Bell: So, Hari, you’re working on something too, aren’t you?

Yes, I am, Kamau. Thank you for asking.

I’m making a documentary about Apu from "The Simpsons,"

which I am very excited about.

We’re trying to get Hank Azaria to be in the film.

He’s the voice of Apu.

Tweet @HankAzaria that he should be in my movie, right.

Sample tweet ‐‐ Dear @HankAzaria, please talk

to @HariKonadabolu about Apu for his documentary

#Apu2016.

Now, let’s get this thing trending.

Let’s see if Hank will be in this movie.

Are you sure you don’t wanna come?

In a Civil War re‐enactment,

we need lots of Indians to shoot.

I don’t know which part of that sentence to correct first.

There was a guy, the year after "Harold & Kumar" came out.

I was walking down the street. He was kind of drunk.

He stumbled out of a bar, Indian guy, and he goes,

"Hey, I get called Kumar all the time because of you."

And I just looked at him and was like,

"It’s better than Apu, isn’t it?" Yeah, right.

And he goes, "Yeah.

Yeah!"

Can you name any other, like, famous Indian‐Americans?

There was ‐‐

But he wasn’t even East Indian.

It was the actor from Johnny 5.

Is that a yes or the number of your intelligence quotient, hmm?

But he wasn’t even East Indian.

No, Fisher Stevens.

I found out he wasn’t Indian three years ago. Yeah!

I mean, you never had the feeling that,

like, at least we have something?

With Apu? Yeah.

Hell, no! Never?

No, it’s the same as

"Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom."

How many white folks in brownface,

eating monkey brains are you gonna deal with?

♪

Chilled monkey brains.

Are there any roles you regret?

No. None?

Let me think before I actually answer that question.

I’m so used to doing these interviews

where that’s where you’re supposed to say. Yeah.

Hari: If you’re a Southasian‐American

and you dream of being an actor,

your choices are pretty limited.

You either portray your community

as one‐dimensional with hopes of better work,

or you let somebody else do it.

It begs the question, is it better to be clowned

or to clown yourself?

I had a bread‐and‐butter role that I did for years,

which was the weeping ethnic mom

of potential rapist or murderers.

It is a mother’s duty to protect her son!

I was playing Achmed, the foreign‐exchange student.

And I was wearing a turban and eating fried camel,

doing these kind of, like, weird Indian dances.

From, like, 1991 till, like, ’96, ’97,

is all just, literally, cabbie,

cabbie, cabbie, deli, deli, deli...

[ Chuckles ]

...doctor.

One of the first movies I did was a movie called

"Van Wilder" with Ryan Reynolds,

and I played an Indian exchange student.

And I remember very clearly getting a phone call

from my agent at the time, and she said,

"Hey, I’ve got this audition for you.

It’s a supporting lead in a movie."

She goes, "Okay, the character’s name...

is Taj Mahal.

I’m Taj...Mahal.

And I hung up the phone, and she calls me back.

And she’s like, "I knew you were gonna do that." I’m like, "Well, yeah!"

I mean, I didn’t major in Theater and Film

to play Taj Mahal. Right.

She said, "Look, it’s almost impossible for me

to sell you without any credits ‐‐

any legitimate credits on your resumé.

And I know that you probably won’t want

to do something like this, but I would really

strongly urge you to take a look at it."

Was there ever any hesitation when you were asked to do

an Indian accent in the casting room?

I always thought to myself, like, "Look,

if this is a really cool part,

if the guy happens to be an Indian guy,

if I take the part, I accept the responsibility

of lending the character

more dignity than what’s written there,

and to be able to challenge the director

and the creatives

and, hopefully, not be fired for that."

So, how easily can something turn into a racist meme?

Well, despite only being said eight times

over the entire course of "The Simpsons" history,

"Thank you, come again"

has haunted Indian children

for over a quarter century.

Why?

It’s funny because it’s racist.

Uh...this could take a while, folks.

Thank you, come again.

How would you define "patanking"

if you were to explain what that means?

Patanking is being asked to speak

in a broad Indian accent with broad acting.

[ Exaggerated Indian accent ] They want the accent to sound like this,

and they want your tongue to be really pulled back.

[ Exaggerated Indian accent ] So, patanking was going into a room

and having to do that exact thing in front of people,

like a monkey.

[ Chittering ]

This voice has caused so much trouble.

So, how did Hank come up with it?

When I first moved to L. A.,

most of the 7‐Eleven guys were Indian and Pakistani.

Then also, Peter Sellers in "The Party,"

one of my favorite performances ever.

Sir, excuse me.

What is the name of a game

that has a multitude of colored balls like that?

Pool. Poo?

What? Poo?

No, not poo. Pool.

Pool. Pool! Pool! Now you got it.

Ah! Oh, like swimming pool. You got it, honey.

I never heard of a game called Poo.

You know, I’ve since learned

that a lot of Southern Asian people,

found that Peter Sellers portrayal fairly offensive.

No [bleep]

What, did you get Inspector Clouseau

to help you solve that mystery?

[ Chuckles ] Inspector Clouseau.

That’s Peter Sellers.

♪

How different is a Southasian actor patanking

versus, like, Hank Azaria doing that voice?

Because as a Southasian actor,

it is part of my cultural heritage.

Hmm. It’s part of, like, what I ‐‐

what I ow‐‐ It’s mine.

So, like, a white guy doing it sort of feels like

you’re... usurping my culture.

An invasion. A kind of exploitation,

but also kind of like using it to further a narrative

within sort of the larger culture

about me and my people.

You’re never gonna see two Indians guys in a club

standing around going, "Hey, man. Aren’t we cool?

Don’t we sound really hip?"

To a lot of people, I think, you’re known for,

like, incredible accents.

And you’ve done them throughout your career.

There is a criticism of, like, "How come he uses accents?

Is it okay for him to use accents?"

Is that something you’ve had to respond to?

The most commonly asked question is,

"Well, what if a white guy did these jokes?"

And I go, "Don’t get caught up on my color

and don’t get caught up on the words.

Get caught up in the intent."

Most of the 7‐Eleven guys were Indian and Pakistani.

And there was one, in particular,

who lived near me who was pretty crusty.

And I would often have the same exchange with him

all the time.

I would be in line,

buying a drink, and I’d open the Gatorade

before I’m waiting to pay, and he would get annoyed.

[ Indian accent ] "Why do you open your unpaid product there?

Please don’t open that until you have paid."

I’m like...

"Am I running out the store? what am I doing?"

There’s nothing wrong with doing an accent.

An accent is a crucial part of a character.

It’s when the accent

lends itself to being part of a joke

about the person,

it’s a racist dig,

that’s when the accent’s problematic.

You know that a white guy does the voice? Huh?!

’Cause the voice is ‐‐

It’s actually done by a Hank Azaria,

who’s a white voice actor.

How did you find out it was a white guy that did the voice?

I don’t know. I think, like, after a long time.

I definitely assumed he was Indian.

How do you feel about that?

Oh, I’m making a movie about how much I dislike it.

Finding out just now that it was a white guy

is kind of ‐‐

that makes me a little bit uncomfortable, for sure.

I don’t know whether ‐‐

’cause people, like, imitate him.

I don’t know whether it makes it more or less racist

to imitate a white guy pretending to be Indian.

[ Laughs ]

Does that make sense?

I will tell you it makes me equally uncomfortable.

The bottom line was always "what’s funnier?"

Our job is to write a comedy.

The fact is, sober Barney, not funny.

Right.

Out Smithers, not as funny.

Humor comes out of conflict.

And the seven deadly sins and our less ‐‐

and our more ‐‐

the aspects of our personality

that we’re maybe not so proud of.

What was Apu’s flaw?

I wouldn’t say he was flawed,

but he was a first‐generation immigrant

with all of the trappings.

But I mean, could you say that a lot of the stuff that Apu says

wouldn’t hit as hard without the accent?

Yeah, well, there are accents that by their nature,

to white Americans,

I can only speak from experience,

sound funny, period.

But there were a lot of people that did not agree with Dana.

And if Hank is anything like me, he definitely checks Twitter

every five minutes, especially on the toilet.

The public wants answers, Hank!

[ Toilet flushes ]

Hari: I always loved stand‐up comedy as a kid.

Like, it was, like, magic to me.

Well, I knew that I wanted to do that,

except I was 17

and didn’t have a complicated life.

What I did have was the fact that I was Indian.

Oh, you got that from India!

You got me!

Oh, you got me! [ Laughter ]

I‐I have some chicken dinner in my backpack.

Do you want some?

Hey, rub my belly. I’ll give you three wishes!

Yeah, come on!

So, I milked it as much as I could.

Like, every corny joke about race I could imagine,

like, jokes about curry and taxi cabs,

gas stations, convenience stores,

and it was awful.

And I probably did that for about,

I don’t know, four or five years.

And then, 9/11 happened.

[ Police sirens wailing ] [ Indistinct yelling ]

The world was falling apart,

and I felt more like a minority than ever before.

So why was I on stage,

doing crappy impressions of my parents?

I was minimizing them the same way America always had.

My comedy had to shift from the way people saw me

towards the way I wanted to be seen.

I hate when people say they can’t see color.

Like, "I can’t see race."

If you can’t see race, you can’t see racism.

Then, what good are you to me? You know what I mean?

I hate that [bleep] I hate that.

And people say they can’t see race,

and I think that leads to more racism, like, every year.

Like, when did Halloween turn into racist Christmas, right?

When...

When is that the year people think

they can get a pass on being super racist,

wearing blackface or a Geisha outfit or whatever?

Why do they assume that? Every year you see people ‐‐

White people wearing blackface. It’s not just white people.

It’s also people of color that have chosen their sides.

[ Laughter ]

I would go to the Comedy Zone, and I loved the Comedy Zone.

I’d see all these comics, and they’d put my friends

in the front row ’cause we were brown people.

At first we thought it was great, and then we realized

they’re just gonna pick on us the whole time.

And it wasn’t just one time. It was every time.

It’d be racist [bleep], and I’m like,

"Okay, it’s a joke. You gotta take a joke."

But we never got to reply, ’cause there was never a comic

who was gonna go on stage who was Indian‐American...

And defend you guys. There was no response.

And you know, I wanted to be that response.

There’s a kind of complacency that happens in our culture,

like, around that stuff, you know,

where even we start going like, "Oh, it’s funny!" Mm‐hmm.

And this is the insidiousness of racism.

The person who is subjected to it or ‐‐

is buying into it as sort of a cultural norm.

Like, "It’s not a problem. It’s fine.

What’s the big deal? You’re overreacting."

Hari: One thing people don’t understand

is that something can be really funny

and still wrong or morally questionable.

The fun part about comedy is that you’re transgressive.

Yeah. When you say, "When I see Hank Azaria

I’m gonna kick the [bleep] out of him,"

the funny part about that for the audience is

that you’re not kicking the [bleep] out of nobody.

Yeah. So, that’s the line you’re cr‐‐

Like, "Oh, really? Is that what you’re gonna do?"

But we also relate

to your intense anger or feeling about it.

But we also are not worried about Hank Azaria.

You’re right. Right. You know, he works out. [ Laughs ]

Yeah, right. He’s got a big house.

I’m kicking upward. Yeah, you’re punching upward.

Smithers, you infernal ninny!

Stick your left hoof on that flange now!

Now, pump those scrawny chicken legs,

you stuporous funker!

Can I bust you on something? Go ahead.

Do you think Mr. Burns is one‐dimensional?

I think Mr. Burns is one‐dimensional,

but he is a one‐dimensional caricature of a rich maniac,

which there are many and who have power. Mm‐hmm.

I think an Indian convenience store owner

who’s accented doesn’t have power,

especially in that situation.

And if I believe that we should go after

people with more power as much as we can,

which "The Simpsons" certainly does brilliantly. Right.

To the writers, there’s no difference.

Mr. Burns is funny in these four ways,

Apu is funny in these four ways.

That’s so mechanical, though.

It’s the nature of writing a television show,

when you have to write 22 half‐hour stories a year

for 25 years that don’t repeat themselves.

By the time you got there, was there a sense of,

like, any kind of regret?

Like, "I wish this character wasn’t built this way"?

I think if "The Simpsons" were being done today,

I’m not sure if you could have Apu voiced by Hank.

I mean, do you see that as a good thing or a bad thing?

Is there a value, or is it just the way it is?

I see it as a "thing."

How much do you want to tear at the fabric of the show?

Do you want to pull Apu, a beloved character,

out of the Kwik‐E‐Mart, a beloved setting,

just for the sake of updating that character

to be less anachronistic?

How have we been so overlooked

by the comedy writers I’d grown up idolizing?

It’s like they didn’t even think of us.

It influenced, like, our whole class of comedians. Nancherla: Yeah.

And some of our favorite writers came from there ‐‐

Dana Gould, Conan, like, so many. Yeah.

And to me, I was like, "Oh."

Like, was that just, like, a blind spot to these people

that are considered to be comedic geniuses?

I feel like that still happens in writers’ rooms now.

It’s like whoever sits at the table,

informs the discussion.

So if it’s, like, all white men,

you’re gonna have someone make an off‐color joke

and not realize the extent to which it is inappropriate.

When does the actor have culpability?

Like, does Hank Azaria have some responsibility,

or is he just an actor playing a role

and he was lucky enough to have it for 26 years?

It’s hard for me to blame the actor.

It lives in a systemic culture

of how are Southasians represented.

If we’re funny just because of an accent

or just because ‐‐

if that’s the only version of us that is seen

and that’s the only version that’s allowed

because the audience will accept one version of Southasians,

they won’t accept something

that’s nuanced or it’s just not ‐‐

it’s too complicated, you know.

I don’t think Hank Azaria thought about it...

probably that much.

It was just a funny character, one among many that he did.

Hari: I mean, that’s part of comedy, too.

I mean, I think that the media that is created,

I mean, part of it is to have a conversation.

And with stand up, you’re having a conversation.

You might not be having the conversation

directly with the performer,

but the stuff I hear other performers say I think about.

Like, that’s a lot of people who feel that way.

It’s not just him. I’m not going after him.

I’m going after all the people that laughed... Yeah.

and feel the same way.

How do I address that point?

That’s why representation’s important.

I mean, this is a big discussion.

And I hope that Hank Azaria understands that

and sits down and talks to you, because I don’t think

you’re necessarily going after him.

But I think he’s a part of this conversation.

I’ve been trying to get Hank Azaria

to be in this documentary,

obviously, because it’s about Apu,

and he voices Apu. Yeah.

How do we get him, Dana?

I don’t know.

I would be astounded if he would voluntarily

want to justify any of his voices.

I still think he should be in the documentary, obviously.

But, like...Yeah. Well, yeah, sure.

But I do think that I don’t want ‐‐

It’s in your self‐interest to have him in the documentary,

and it’s in his self‐interest to not be in it.

♪

It all just seemed so hopeless.

But then I got an e‐mail from Hank saying

he might be willing to talk.

Whoa.

So, it might be happening.

Hank Azaria might actually talk to me.

This is almost very exciting.

But now what? What am I gonna tell him?

Just stop doing the voice?

I need some creative solutions for this mess.

I don’t know what the solution is to tweak it.

I don’t know if you can tweak it.

I also don’t want them to kill Apu,

although it might actually make a good episode,

which they’re in desperate need of.

I was ‐‐ I was thinking about that.

But the idea of, like, killing

the Indian immigrant is also upsetting, like...

Well, he can’t win with you. Right. [ Laughs ]

What if there’s an episode where he just drops the accent?

[ Laughter ] He was, like ‐‐ No, I’m serious ‐‐

And it was, like, all just an elaborate ruse?

Hey, brah. Come in and chill‐ax.

Now, I’m not the only one who’s tried to solve this problem.

"The Simpsons" themselves attempted to in 2016,

during season 27,

when they introduced Apu’s Indian‐American nephew

voiced by Utkarsh Ambudkar.

So, you did the voice of Apu’s nephew,

who was the first Indian‐ American character on that show.

How did they approach you about that?

I got an offer.

I got this super‐cool letter

with "The Simpsons" heading that said,

"Dear," you know,

"Utkarsh, will you come and be on the show?"

And at that point I’m just like, "Sweet sweet sweet, Simpsons...

Oh, man. I know how this goes.

Do I have to do an accent?"

"No, we don’t want you to do an accent.

We’ve been getting a lot of heat," whatever it is.

"We want to present an Indian‐American."

Check it.

I just bitch‐slapped your Kwik‐E‐Mart

into the 21st Century!

There’s a moment where I’m, like, bashing Apu.

And I’m like, "You’re a stereotype!

Why do you talk like that?"

And I had an "alt," where I was like,

"You sound like a white guy

doing a bad version of an Indian accent."

I’ll say that, and then you cut

to the real Hank Azaria in the booth.

That’s so good!

Look, and have him look at the camera. That’s so good!

And then, cut back to the cartoon.

That, like, solves the thing.

Did you do the take?

I did.

But, uh... But they weren’t having it.

Was there ever a moment of second‐guessing,

or was there ever a moment of regret,

"Maybe I shouldn’t have,

maybe I’m taking them off the hook by doing this."

Like, was there ever that?

Oh, yeah, when I watched it.

Really? Well, yeah.

I mean... "The Simpsons" wins.

I wanted to win.

You’re my uncle, brah, and I love you.

But you’re a stereotype, man!

"Take a penny, leave a penny. I’m Indian. I do yoga."

Why don’t you go back to the "Temple of Doom,"

Dr. Jones?"

He leaves, and then an Italian guy comes out

who’s the full‐blown stereotype.

[ Exaggerated Italian accent ] Stereotype‐a?

Who’s a stereotype‐a? That’s a spicy accusation!

You pipe down! Hey!

And it’s like "The Simpsons", the show,

being like, "Stop complaining.

We do this to everyone."

Okay, so, "The Simpsons" gave us a less‐than‐satisfying answer

to this Apu problem.

And now Hank had an opportunity to change this.

"Hey, Hari, thanks for sending me those clips.

The film looks really interesting

and thought‐provoking.

I’m glad you’re making it.

Having said that..." That’s not good, okay.

"Having said that,

it’s not something I can participate in.

I’m not comfortable, one,

speaking on behalf of the whole show,

two, throwing myself upon the mercy of your edit.

It’s nothing against you.

As I said, I think what you’re doing is great.

I would definitely be open to reconnecting

after the film is finished

and finding a mutually‐acceptable forum

for us to have a conversation about this.

If that still interests you, let me know.

All the best to you, Hari,

and keep up the great work. Hank."

That’s great that he ‐‐

He gets to choose how he wants to be portrayed.

What a privilege.

He gets to choose how he is viewed by other people.

So [bleep] ironic.

♪ I like to have fun ♪

♪ And stick out my tongue ♪

Wow. So, this whole thing was a giant waste of time and money!

Luckily, it was somebody else’s money,

but still, nothing was solved!

We never got to those responsible.

It was just some film about some cartoon character.

Or maybe it wasn’t.

You’re showing a kid, a comedian, a filmmaker,

an actor, a musician,

who’s Indian, Southasian‐American,

that they can do this

and it can make it on television and film.

And you’re not a computer dude right now.

You’re not an asexual being.

We wrote the "Kama Sutra." We taught you how to [bleep]

You’re building, and I think this is the way

to move forward

and create sort of a ‐‐

a blueprint for the generations to come.

Here we go!

There has been undeniable progress

for Southasian‐American representation

over the last decade.

I mean, Aziz has a show.

Mindy has a show.

I certainly deserve a show.

However, we still have room to grow,

considering I know almost every

Southasian‐American in the media.

And half of them are in this film.

And now a different group of Indians...

is taking it back.

Southasians would come up to me all the time

and be like, "I’m so glad that you’re there, on that show,

just by virtue of the way you look

and the stories that you get to talk about

and your perspectives."

You know, I said to John Stewart when I got the job,

I was like, "Do you want me to do the accent?"

And then he was like, "What? No!

[ Groans ]

No, I don’t think we need you to that.

No! Just talk like yourself."

And I was like, "Yes!"

[ Laughs ]

This is progress.

Progress is you hearing me talk to you

and not hearing a white dude pretending to be me.

Sometimes people also ask me,

"How come when you do impressions of your parents,

you don’t use an accent?"

And the answer to that question, of course, is [bleep] you.

That’s why I don’t use an accent.

There’s an action figure.

He’s got the convenience store. You can press this button.

I take it from your yelling that you like my tofu dogs.

What the [bleep] is that? Yes, this is ‐‐ yeah.

Before we wrapped it up, I just wanted to...

Don’t give me that.

I wanted to give you this. I wanted to give you this.

Do not give me that!

I wanted to give you this, and this is ‐‐

I mean, I realize you probably...

For my Negrobilia.

Yeah. Okay.

Thank you, Whoopi. Thank you, honey.

Look, you’re still allowed to love "The Simpsons."

All I’m saying is that "The Simpsons"

is like your racist grandfather.

You love your grandfather.

He’s been there your whole life

and has taught you so many valuable things.

But he still does racist stuff regularly.

So if he can’t change,

maybe it’s time he dies.

And you can just remember the best things about him ‐‐

seasons 1 through 10.

♪

Oh, and one more thing.

♪

Aah!

Yeah, I think about what my mom’s been through

in this country, right?

People saying things like,

"Take that dog off your head,"

or "Why are you wearing bed sheets out of the house,"

or "Why don’t you shut up and make me food?"

And this is just stuff me and my brothers

said to her, growing up.

Now, can you imagine

what she dealt with out of the house?