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I, Jimmie Carter,
do solemnly swear.
2
00:00:03,939 --> 00:00:05,801
That I will faithfully execute.
3
00:00:05,836 --> 00:00:07,456
That I will faithfully execute.
4
00:00:07,491 --> 00:00:10,491
The office of President
of the United States.
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00:00:11,801 --> 00:00:13,698
If we were going to
go on a crusade across
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00:00:13,732 --> 00:00:15,836
the nation to try to do
away with the homosexuals.
7
00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:21,801
Luis Robinson emerged
from being booked.
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00:00:21,836 --> 00:00:24,112
Yesterday a violent hijacker,
now accused of
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00:00:24,146 --> 00:00:26,698
killing two people,
seriously injuring two others
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00:00:26,732 --> 00:00:29,663
and terrorizing about
two dozen hostages.
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00:00:29,698 --> 00:00:31,491
I didn't intend to kill him.
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00:00:31,525 --> 00:00:33,284
I just wanted to make everybody
13
00:00:33,318 --> 00:00:35,284
on the bus realize
that I was serious.
14
00:00:35,318 --> 00:00:36,870
So how about making yourself
15
00:00:36,905 --> 00:00:39,112
a part of that 200
year tradition?
16
00:00:39,146 --> 00:00:43,663
Take stock in America with
United States savings bonds.
17
00:00:43,698 --> 00:00:45,698
David Berkowitz indicted
18
00:00:45,732 --> 00:00:47,870
for murder,
also known as Son of Sam.
19
00:00:47,905 --> 00:00:49,939
His lawyer said if
he is brought to trial
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00:00:49,974 --> 00:00:52,215
he will use insanity
as a defense.
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00:00:52,250 --> 00:00:54,043
I just can't believe he's dead.
22
00:00:55,353 --> 00:00:56,974
It's terrible,
but I just thank God that
23
00:00:57,008 --> 00:00:59,387
Elvis died here at
Graceland instead of
24
00:00:59,422 --> 00:01:03,560
on the road just like any
other rock and roll singer.
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00:01:10,387 --> 00:01:12,801
It's just a great
loss to everybody
26
00:01:12,836 --> 00:01:15,250
and there's just like
an empty feeling inside.
27
00:01:15,284 --> 00:01:17,181
Citizens subjected to violence,
28
00:01:17,215 --> 00:01:19,870
vandalism, theft and discomfort.
29
00:01:21,043 --> 00:01:24,698
The blackout has
threatened our safety.
30
00:01:24,732 --> 00:01:29,077
We've been needlessly
subjected to a night of terror.
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00:01:29,112 --> 00:01:32,491
Here it is mid-morning
about 10:20 a.m. and looting
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00:01:32,525 --> 00:01:35,732
is still going on at this
particular supermarket.
33
00:01:35,767 --> 00:01:37,801
The reason; there
are no cops here.
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00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:40,250
Have you recently
had a close encounter?
35
00:01:40,284 --> 00:01:42,318
I want to speak to
someone in charge!
36
00:01:42,353 --> 00:01:43,801
I want to lodge a complaint.
37
00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:46,043
Close encounter with
something very unusual.
38
00:01:46,077 --> 00:01:47,974
What the hell is
going on around here?
39
00:01:48,008 --> 00:01:49,525
Who the hell are you?
40
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,181
Indiana emergency.
41
00:01:51,215 --> 00:01:53,525
Sir, this is a dire emergency.
42
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,284
A real serious thing,
I've just taken a prisoner.
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00:01:56,318 --> 00:01:57,767
It's not a crank call.
44
00:01:57,801 --> 00:02:01,732
I've got a 12 gauge sawed
off automatic shotgun.
45
00:05:00,284 --> 00:05:03,008
There should be a lieutenant there,
too.
46
00:05:22,146 --> 00:05:26,181
I was in Vietnam,
so I've been in firefights before.
47
00:05:26,215 --> 00:05:29,422
I wasn't nervous,
I wasn't afraid.
48
00:05:29,456 --> 00:05:33,387
I just,
I figured I'm here to cover this event.
49
00:05:41,594 --> 00:05:44,318
Man with a gun,
possible hostage situation.
50
00:05:44,353 --> 00:05:46,112
They're on the fourth floor,
control.
51
00:05:46,146 --> 00:05:48,905
We need to shut down the elevators,
129 East Market Street.
52
00:05:48,939 --> 00:05:50,284
Get back, gentlemen.
53
00:05:50,318 --> 00:05:53,629
Get back away from the window.
54
00:05:53,663 --> 00:05:55,974
Buck went up to the stairs,
55
00:05:56,008 --> 00:05:58,836
but he's not
answering for anyone.
56
00:06:01,318 --> 00:06:03,250
Secure that front door.
57
00:06:20,353 --> 00:06:21,456
Clear the lobby.
58
00:06:21,491 --> 00:06:23,629
Going right down the stairs now.
59
00:06:23,663 --> 00:06:25,077
10-9, sir.
60
00:06:25,112 --> 00:06:29,870
We're en route down the stairs,
he has a loaded 1042.
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00:06:29,905 --> 00:06:32,284
Everybody stay ready,
use caution.
62
00:07:31,629 --> 00:07:35,801
They got down to the
corner and Tony's lost.
63
00:07:37,836 --> 00:07:39,732
He doesn't know
where his car is.
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00:07:39,767 --> 00:07:44,146
He's walking east
on Market from,
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00:07:44,181 --> 00:07:46,836
east on Market from
Pennsylvania towards Delaware.
66
00:07:46,870 --> 00:07:49,353
He does have a shotgun
wired to the subject's head.
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00:07:49,387 --> 00:07:51,836
They turned left toward
Washington Street
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00:07:51,870 --> 00:07:54,629
and right there is
a parking garage.
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00:07:54,663 --> 00:07:56,456
All cars, he's south
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00:07:56,491 --> 00:07:58,284
on Pennsylvania from Market,
south on
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00:07:58,318 --> 00:08:00,112
Pennsylvania
from Market on foot.
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00:08:00,146 --> 00:08:02,112
Marion County downtown,
the subject holding
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00:08:02,146 --> 00:08:03,870
the two city police
officers hostage is now
74
00:08:03,905 --> 00:08:07,870
walking southbound on
Pennsylvania from Market.
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00:08:07,905 --> 00:08:09,732
Suspect has entered
76
00:08:09,767 --> 00:08:11,629
a parking garage
on Pennsylvania.
77
00:08:11,663 --> 00:08:14,801
Bill,
we gotta cross over for a better shot.
78
00:08:20,456 --> 00:08:22,043
Look in the window.
79
00:08:24,974 --> 00:08:26,939
Get outta here,
alright, excuse me.
80
00:08:36,250 --> 00:08:40,387
We think he's
trying to take a car.
81
00:08:41,491 --> 00:08:43,112
We estimate he
knew where his car,
82
00:08:43,146 --> 00:08:46,181
but he refused
to give it to him.
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00:08:47,870 --> 00:08:49,146
Suspect's
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00:08:49,181 --> 00:08:52,112
coming back onto Pennsylvania.
85
00:08:52,146 --> 00:08:53,560
Suspect's moving.
86
00:09:00,215 --> 00:09:03,870
From the looks of it,
one movement
87
00:09:03,905 --> 00:09:08,422
of his trigger finger
and Hall's head is gone.
88
00:09:08,456 --> 00:09:11,801
Southbound for now.
89
00:09:21,905 --> 00:09:25,905
Every time we'd stop
someplace he wanted a car.
90
00:09:25,939 --> 00:09:30,215
He said,
till the car gets here we'll start walking.
91
00:09:30,250 --> 00:09:34,387
We went down to Washington
Street and started walking west.
92
00:09:39,318 --> 00:09:40,801
We're following the suspect
93
00:09:40,836 --> 00:09:42,284
westbound on Washington Street,
control.
94
00:09:42,318 --> 00:09:44,698
We're on the north side
of Washington Street.
95
00:09:44,732 --> 00:09:46,422
You need to block
off Washington Street
96
00:09:46,456 --> 00:09:48,491
somewhere before Rush Street.
97
00:09:48,525 --> 00:09:50,698
Stand by, they've stopped.
98
00:09:52,456 --> 00:09:54,456
The longer he
stood there and tried
99
00:09:54,491 --> 00:09:57,767
to talk to people,
the madder he got.
100
00:09:57,801 --> 00:09:59,560
Because he wasn't getting any of
101
00:09:59,594 --> 00:10:02,215
the cooperation that he wanted.
102
00:10:13,870 --> 00:10:16,836
No one knew what
Kiritsis was going to do.
103
00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:20,112
For all they know he was
going to shoot him right there.
104
00:10:48,112 --> 00:10:51,732
They're moving again, control.
105
00:10:51,767 --> 00:10:53,767
Westbound on Washington.
106
00:11:09,112 --> 00:11:13,181
The uniformed officers
were kind of rushing ahead.
107
00:11:13,215 --> 00:11:16,318
And there were several
detectives walking together,
108
00:11:16,353 --> 00:11:20,525
talking about, well, gee,
what can we do about this?
109
00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:25,836
You know,
the first thing that they taught us
110
00:11:25,870 --> 00:11:28,594
is you try to find out
what the problem is
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00:11:28,629 --> 00:11:31,594
and set up some type of
communications with the guy.
112
00:11:31,629 --> 00:11:35,801
So I stepped forward and
started calling his name.
113
00:11:49,422 --> 00:11:52,215
I saw Mike Grable
with his arms open.
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00:11:52,250 --> 00:11:54,767
Common gesture,
I'm unarmed, I can't hurt you.
115
00:11:54,801 --> 00:11:56,250
What do you want?
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00:11:57,698 --> 00:12:00,284
He turned around and
he screamed at me.
117
00:12:00,318 --> 00:12:02,043
He says, "Are you crazy?"
118
00:12:02,077 --> 00:12:05,387
He says,
"You want me to kill this guy?"
119
00:12:06,732 --> 00:12:09,456
Tony turned around and actually
120
00:12:09,491 --> 00:12:12,525
pulled Hall as well
as the shotgun.
121
00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:16,870
Then they slipped and fell,
both of them.
122
00:12:16,905 --> 00:12:19,594
Hold your fire, hold your fire!
123
00:12:26,284 --> 00:12:28,560
Got up and I remember
the look on his face.
124
00:12:28,594 --> 00:12:31,422
He was real surprised that
that shotgun didn't go off.
125
00:12:31,456 --> 00:12:35,491
And then he reached
down into his belt
126
00:12:35,525 --> 00:12:37,732
and that's the first
time I realized he had
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00:12:37,767 --> 00:12:40,663
a pistol stuck in the
front of his pants.
128
00:12:40,698 --> 00:12:42,663
It started to come
out or come loose
129
00:12:42,698 --> 00:12:45,387
and as he was getting up,
both of them
130
00:12:45,422 --> 00:12:47,801
were getting up,
he reached for his weapon.
131
00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:50,043
And I'm thinking to myself,
well, if he pulls
132
00:12:50,077 --> 00:12:54,353
this gun and points at me,
I'm going to shoot him.
133
00:12:54,387 --> 00:12:56,767
Tony was close enough
to take that pistol out
134
00:12:56,801 --> 00:12:58,767
and shoot a couple,
three policemen.
135
00:12:58,801 --> 00:13:00,939
If Tony pulled that pistol,
if he'd have fired
136
00:13:00,974 --> 00:13:02,870
I think someone
would have killed him.
137
00:13:02,905 --> 00:13:04,836
They would have had to.
138
00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:14,732
As I got closer I heard
Tony and he was very angry.
139
00:13:14,767 --> 00:13:17,767
And he was yelling
at the policemen.
140
00:13:20,181 --> 00:13:21,905
He said he liked
police officers,
141
00:13:21,939 --> 00:13:24,112
some of his best
friends are police officers.
142
00:13:24,146 --> 00:13:25,663
He said, "Now, do your job."
143
00:13:25,698 --> 00:13:28,422
That was sort of the
dichotomy of the way he thought.
144
00:13:28,456 --> 00:13:30,663
Is he's doing this wild,
crazy act,
145
00:13:30,698 --> 00:13:33,284
but yet he thought they
should be doing their jobs
146
00:13:33,318 --> 00:13:36,525
to stop him from
doing what he's doing.
147
00:13:56,318 --> 00:13:59,043
We're passing Capitol.
148
00:13:59,077 --> 00:14:01,318
Traffic's blocked ahead of you.
149
00:14:01,353 --> 00:14:04,318
I knew we were in trouble.
150
00:14:04,353 --> 00:14:07,318
All he wanted all the way
across town was a car.
151
00:14:07,353 --> 00:14:10,525
An officer had parked a car,
long ways,
152
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:13,491
right by the path
that we were taking
153
00:14:13,525 --> 00:14:16,939
with the door open
and the motor running.
154
00:14:20,801 --> 00:14:23,181
And I thought,
we'll never make it
155
00:14:23,215 --> 00:14:25,008
to the other side of the street.
156
00:14:25,043 --> 00:14:28,353
And sure enough,
when we got to that door he said stop.
157
00:14:28,387 --> 00:14:29,250
I knew it.
158
00:14:31,318 --> 00:14:33,905
He told me to turn around
and he raised my sweater,
159
00:14:33,939 --> 00:14:38,008
I knew what he was after,
he wanted my handcuffs.
160
00:14:39,422 --> 00:14:43,491
As we're approaching the
intersection we hear a bang.
161
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:49,181
It startled all of
us because the
162
00:14:49,215 --> 00:14:51,732
first thing we
looked at was Hall.
163
00:14:54,698 --> 00:14:58,870
I hear this crash off to the
side and so I panned over.
164
00:15:00,112 --> 00:15:02,525
There was just some gawker that,
poor guy,
165
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,491
had driven up on
this whole scene
166
00:15:04,525 --> 00:15:06,456
and he was looking and ran into
167
00:15:06,491 --> 00:15:10,112
the telephone pole,
so I went back to Hall.
168
00:15:11,836 --> 00:15:14,043
Tony went over
to the car that was,
169
00:15:14,077 --> 00:15:16,491
the marked police car was running,
door open.
170
00:15:16,525 --> 00:15:20,836
He slid in and he
pulled Hall in behind him.
171
00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:23,905
This wire around Hall's
neck was extremely tight
172
00:15:23,939 --> 00:15:27,767
and I think Hall was
having trouble breathing.
173
00:15:47,456 --> 00:15:50,698
Let's see if I can get a ride.
174
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,250
Does anybody got a car?
175
00:15:58,284 --> 00:15:59,767
Come here, Bill, Bill come here.
176
00:15:59,801 --> 00:16:00,939
Does anybody got a car?
177
00:16:00,974 --> 00:16:02,387
Jack!
178
00:16:02,422 --> 00:16:04,318
Mike and I talked about
it a number of times.
179
00:16:04,353 --> 00:16:09,146
It just never, ever got any
easier talking about it because,
180
00:16:09,181 --> 00:16:10,663
what are you going to do?
181
00:16:10,698 --> 00:16:12,043
What are you going to do?
182
00:16:12,077 --> 00:16:13,974
And that's really
what the officers
183
00:16:14,008 --> 00:16:16,181
said to him, some,
several officers,
184
00:16:16,215 --> 00:16:19,250
I think, said,
what are you going to do?
185
00:16:19,284 --> 00:16:21,456
And we didn't know
what he was going to do.
186
00:16:21,491 --> 00:16:23,456
And I'm not sure Tony knew
what he was going to do.
187
00:16:23,491 --> 00:16:25,181
Mark, you've been following
188
00:16:25,215 --> 00:16:26,836
another aspect of
this hostage situation.
189
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:28,663
What can you report
to us at this time?
190
00:16:28,698 --> 00:16:30,836
Well, Tom, right now the suspect
191
00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:32,870
and his victim are
proceeding westbound
192
00:16:32,905 --> 00:16:34,836
on Washington Street
in an Indianapolis
193
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:36,663
police car with
red lights flashing.
194
00:16:36,698 --> 00:16:39,112
The car is number 2-132.
195
00:16:39,146 --> 00:16:41,077
It was proceeding west on demand
196
00:16:41,112 --> 00:16:43,974
from the kidnapper,
apparently, as a consequence
197
00:16:44,008 --> 00:16:45,801
and part of the
hostage situation
198
00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:48,560
that developed
about an hour ago.
199
00:16:48,594 --> 00:16:51,456
We are about two to
three hundred yards away
200
00:16:51,491 --> 00:16:54,836
in line of sight from a red
brick apartment building.
201
00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:58,525
The victim and assailant
are on the third floor of wing C,
202
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,698
but it's still not
known what the man's,
203
00:17:00,732 --> 00:17:04,387
the problem is, a psychiatric problem,
if that be the case.
204
00:17:04,422 --> 00:17:06,974
There is very likely to
be some very serious
205
00:17:07,008 --> 00:17:09,905
conversation going on
within the apartment building.
206
00:17:09,939 --> 00:17:11,974
Doug O'Brien, WIBC News.
207
00:17:12,008 --> 00:17:15,043
He went inside with me and
several officers followed him.
208
00:17:15,077 --> 00:17:16,939
He went into his
apartment and we went
209
00:17:16,974 --> 00:17:18,767
and talked to
him for a little bit.
210
00:17:18,801 --> 00:17:20,974
He says everybody
get away from this door,
211
00:17:21,008 --> 00:17:22,318
don't come near this place.
212
00:17:22,353 --> 00:17:23,732
He says, I got it wired.
213
00:17:23,767 --> 00:17:26,663
He said this whole
building will go up.
214
00:17:26,698 --> 00:17:27,525
♪ WNAP
215
00:17:29,767 --> 00:17:31,284
Indianapolis.
216
00:17:31,318 --> 00:17:33,456
We are back in contact
with Doug O'Brien.
217
00:17:33,491 --> 00:17:35,698
And Doug you say you
have gotten a recent advisory
218
00:17:35,732 --> 00:17:37,112
from Chief of Police
Eugene Gallagher.
219
00:17:37,146 --> 00:17:38,698
Can you give us that situation?
220
00:17:38,732 --> 00:17:40,698
That's correct,
Gallagher tells us
221
00:17:40,732 --> 00:17:43,836
that the apartment
apparently is wired somehow
222
00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:46,422
to be set off by nitroglycerin.
223
00:17:46,456 --> 00:17:48,801
And they're advising
everybody to stay away
224
00:17:48,836 --> 00:17:50,353
from the east
side of this building
225
00:17:50,387 --> 00:17:51,939
because if the nitro is,
in fact,
226
00:17:51,974 --> 00:17:54,284
there, and if,
in fact, it does go,
227
00:17:54,318 --> 00:17:56,112
it's going to blow
out the east side
228
00:17:56,146 --> 00:17:57,698
of this three story
apartment building.
229
00:17:57,732 --> 00:17:59,801
There are officers
trying to negotiate with
230
00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:02,181
the gunman and there
is a S.W.A.T. team right
231
00:18:02,215 --> 00:18:06,939
outside the building
waiting for any eventuality.
232
00:18:06,974 --> 00:18:09,353
I had a position where
I was straight across
233
00:18:09,387 --> 00:18:11,594
from the next building
that I could look at
234
00:18:11,629 --> 00:18:15,732
to the west that was
Tony Kiritsis's window.
235
00:18:15,767 --> 00:18:18,422
Myself being a sniper,
I am setting up
236
00:18:18,456 --> 00:18:21,284
something to put my gun on,
to put my rifle on
237
00:18:21,318 --> 00:18:25,146
and wait for any word to
do whatever we need to do.
238
00:18:25,181 --> 00:18:27,215
Mark Watkins just got through
239
00:18:27,250 --> 00:18:28,939
talking with police
chief Eugene Gallagher
240
00:18:28,974 --> 00:18:30,181
and here is his report.
241
00:18:30,215 --> 00:18:31,663
Chief Gallagher indicated
242
00:18:31,698 --> 00:18:33,525
that police had
considered trying to shoot
243
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,801
the man downtown as
he was proceeding west
244
00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:37,801
on Washington
Street with his hostage.
245
00:18:37,836 --> 00:18:40,008
However, the men,
the police department
246
00:18:40,043 --> 00:18:42,353
got a good look at the
setup on the hostage
247
00:18:42,387 --> 00:18:45,801
involving the gun
next to the man's head.
248
00:18:45,836 --> 00:18:48,250
He was wired around his
fingers and around his arm.
249
00:18:48,284 --> 00:18:50,939
So if he let go of it he
would still pull the trigger.
250
00:18:50,974 --> 00:18:53,250
He had a cable around
the man's throat attached
251
00:18:53,284 --> 00:18:54,870
to the shotgun,
so there's no way to get
252
00:18:54,905 --> 00:18:56,594
the shotgun away
from the man's head.
253
00:18:56,629 --> 00:19:00,112
So I told him, whatever you want,
just let me know.
254
00:19:00,146 --> 00:19:02,663
He didn't say anything
about his intentions?
255
00:19:02,698 --> 00:19:05,456
He said that he was going
to get everything he wanted
256
00:19:05,491 --> 00:19:07,663
or he would shoot the man,
that's about all.
257
00:19:07,698 --> 00:19:10,870
He never did tell me
exactly what he wanted.
258
00:19:10,905 --> 00:19:12,112
He just kept walking.
259
00:19:12,146 --> 00:19:13,767
Did Mr. Hall say anything
260
00:19:13,801 --> 00:19:15,043
as you were walking
along the road?
261
00:19:15,077 --> 00:19:16,456
No.
262
00:19:16,491 --> 00:19:17,939
No.
263
00:19:17,974 --> 00:19:20,284
He appeared to be fairly
calm for the situation that,
264
00:19:20,318 --> 00:19:23,215
he did what he was told
and walked when he was told
265
00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:25,456
to walk and stopped
when he was told to stop.
266
00:19:25,491 --> 00:19:26,801
Would you describe
267
00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:28,560
the suspect as being
extremely nervous?
268
00:19:28,594 --> 00:19:30,250
No.
269
00:19:30,284 --> 00:19:32,353
For the situation I'd
say he's fairly calm.
270
00:19:32,387 --> 00:19:35,077
He knew exactly
what he was doing.
271
00:19:35,112 --> 00:19:37,318
You've known Tony
for a number of years.
272
00:19:37,353 --> 00:19:38,836
What kind of guy is he?
273
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:40,801
Well,
he's always been a kind of reasonable man.
274
00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:42,732
He just seems
to be excited over,
275
00:19:42,767 --> 00:19:44,974
he felt he's being beat
out of some money
276
00:19:45,008 --> 00:19:47,146
over this real estate deal,
and apparently,
277
00:19:47,181 --> 00:19:49,732
this loan company,
whatever loan company it is.
278
00:19:49,767 --> 00:19:51,836
If he says he's
going to do something
279
00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:53,318
is he the kind of
guy that'll do it?
280
00:19:53,353 --> 00:19:55,318
Well, I would say yes,
as long as I've known him.
281
00:19:55,353 --> 00:19:56,698
Now you were up there
282
00:19:56,732 --> 00:19:57,974
talking through the door to him.
283
00:19:58,008 --> 00:19:59,456
What did he tell you?
284
00:19:59,491 --> 00:20:01,836
Well, he just told me that
he wasn't going to go to jail.
285
00:20:01,870 --> 00:20:04,215
And he's going to see
to it he's treated right
286
00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:06,215
on that loan that
they beat him out of,
287
00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:08,215
or he probably wouldn't
come out of there,
288
00:20:08,250 --> 00:20:10,250
neither would Mr. Hall,
whoever that is,
289
00:20:10,284 --> 00:20:11,698
apparently the president of
290
00:20:11,732 --> 00:20:13,181
this real estate
or loan company.
291
00:20:13,215 --> 00:20:15,043
Now, do you think knowing him
292
00:20:15,077 --> 00:20:16,801
that saying something
like that he really means it?
293
00:20:16,836 --> 00:20:20,181
I definitely do,
without any question.
294
00:20:21,663 --> 00:20:23,284
You could see up there in his
295
00:20:23,318 --> 00:20:25,939
apartment he had
strings all the way across.
296
00:20:25,974 --> 00:20:30,043
Well, what happened,
he had cans of gasoline with candles.
297
00:20:30,077 --> 00:20:32,939
And if a string broke
and the candle went down
298
00:20:32,974 --> 00:20:35,594
and it hit the gasoline,
then away it went.
299
00:20:35,629 --> 00:20:38,767
And because of that the
snipers couldn't do anything.
300
00:20:38,801 --> 00:20:41,318
I mean, they had a bead on him,
many, many times
301
00:20:41,353 --> 00:20:44,043
up there where they could
have popped him if they want.
302
00:20:44,077 --> 00:20:45,456
But they're afraid if they broke
303
00:20:45,491 --> 00:20:47,146
the window with the shot,
that it
304
00:20:47,181 --> 00:20:50,732
would trigger this thing
and away she went.
305
00:20:53,008 --> 00:20:55,215
The dangers that lay,
they were up there.
306
00:20:55,250 --> 00:20:56,836
I mean, he'd been telling us all
307
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:58,284
along the place
is totally wired.
308
00:20:58,318 --> 00:21:00,353
I mean,
it looks wired from everything we can see,
309
00:21:00,387 --> 00:21:02,560
you know, confirm with EOD,
state police,
310
00:21:02,594 --> 00:21:05,284
sheriff and all of our
brain thrust together.
311
00:21:05,318 --> 00:21:09,456
It looked like it was a
very well wired apartment.
312
00:21:10,974 --> 00:21:13,008
I went out and
talked to him through
313
00:21:13,043 --> 00:21:15,663
the doorway asking
him to please come out.
314
00:21:15,698 --> 00:21:18,387
And it was almost like
he was almost crying,
315
00:21:18,422 --> 00:21:19,870
but he couldn't come out.
316
00:21:19,905 --> 00:21:21,836
He was sorry,
he was sorry, he was sorry,
317
00:21:21,870 --> 00:21:23,353
but he could not come out.
318
00:21:23,387 --> 00:21:28,043
And please don't come in,
Bobby, because it's wired.
319
00:21:28,077 --> 00:21:31,698
The information got
to the core people
320
00:21:31,732 --> 00:21:34,284
out at the apartment
complex that hey,
321
00:21:34,318 --> 00:21:36,594
this guy's known
to law enforcement.
322
00:21:36,629 --> 00:21:38,146
Well,
what's he been involved in?
323
00:21:38,181 --> 00:21:41,146
Well, not in that way,
you know, they see him.
324
00:21:41,181 --> 00:21:43,525
He's a west side guy,
comes in the restaurant
325
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,353
where they have
coffee in the morning.
326
00:21:45,387 --> 00:21:46,215
Really?
327
00:21:46,250 --> 00:21:47,594
Get them out here.
328
00:21:47,629 --> 00:21:50,905
Frank,
you know Tony fairly well.
329
00:21:50,939 --> 00:21:53,905
Do you know what precipitated this,
what happened today?
330
00:21:53,939 --> 00:21:56,594
Well, this has been going
on for like three or four years.
331
00:21:56,629 --> 00:21:58,767
It's concerning some
property that he owns
332
00:21:58,801 --> 00:22:01,284
that he wants to get
financed or the bank wants
333
00:22:01,318 --> 00:22:05,008
to second mortgage it or
something of this nature.
334
00:22:05,043 --> 00:22:08,422
It's a financial type
situation and I felt like
335
00:22:08,456 --> 00:22:12,456
he feels like he's been
discriminated against
336
00:22:12,491 --> 00:22:15,318
or something and this is,
I think,
337
00:22:17,525 --> 00:22:20,284
precipitated this
hostage and seizure.
338
00:22:20,318 --> 00:22:23,250
Okay, what happened
after the other two incidents?
339
00:22:23,284 --> 00:22:25,801
He one time held a city official,
seven or eight years ago.
340
00:22:25,836 --> 00:22:27,215
Then he held his sister.
341
00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:28,043
Yes.
342
00:22:28,077 --> 00:22:28,870
For some time.
343
00:22:28,905 --> 00:22:30,318
Yes.
344
00:22:30,353 --> 00:22:31,422
What happened after
those two incidents?
345
00:22:31,456 --> 00:22:33,250
Did he just go free?
346
00:22:33,284 --> 00:22:36,112
Well, I arrested him one
time for assault and battery
347
00:22:36,146 --> 00:22:40,146
with intent to kill and
he was put on probation.
348
00:22:42,732 --> 00:22:46,594
He took a couple
shots at his brother.
349
00:22:46,629 --> 00:22:48,318
Any advanced warning on this,
350
00:22:48,353 --> 00:22:50,663
or is this something
that just came out
351
00:22:50,698 --> 00:22:52,422
of the clear blue
sky this morning?
352
00:22:52,456 --> 00:22:54,250
See,
I don't know because I haven't
353
00:22:54,284 --> 00:22:56,422
seen Tony for
two or three years.
354
00:22:56,456 --> 00:22:59,077
And I see his brother,
like, weekly.
355
00:22:59,112 --> 00:23:02,767
And Tony communicates
with his brother quite a bit
356
00:23:02,801 --> 00:23:04,698
and he's got a lot
of respect for him.
357
00:23:04,732 --> 00:23:07,732
And he thinks, probably,
more of his brother than anybody.
358
00:23:07,767 --> 00:23:09,284
And that's who they're
going to get now.
359
00:23:09,318 --> 00:23:10,215
Yes, yes.
360
00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:12,939
Thank you, Frank.
361
00:23:12,974 --> 00:23:14,836
I was on business
in Brown County
362
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:16,353
and my wife hit me on the radio
363
00:23:16,387 --> 00:23:18,836
and said call home right away.
364
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:21,767
I went into a
service station on,
365
00:23:21,801 --> 00:23:25,974
east of National on 46,
it was a Shell station.
366
00:23:26,008 --> 00:23:29,112
And I went in and I said, "Steve,
may I use your telephone?"
367
00:23:29,146 --> 00:23:30,594
And he said look up at the TV.
368
00:23:30,629 --> 00:23:33,008
He said look what the hell's
going on in Indianapolis.
369
00:23:33,043 --> 00:23:34,491
And I looked up
there and I said,
370
00:23:34,525 --> 00:23:36,698
my God, I said,
that's my brother.
371
00:23:36,732 --> 00:23:38,491
That's how I learned.
372
00:23:40,594 --> 00:23:42,560
You think the worst
when you see that.
373
00:23:42,594 --> 00:23:43,491
You know?
374
00:23:43,525 --> 00:23:45,112
Get killed, killing somebody,
375
00:23:45,146 --> 00:23:48,008
all the things you
don't want to happen.
376
00:23:48,043 --> 00:23:50,836
I called Frank Levin and
told him I would be on my way.
377
00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:53,250
And he asked me, he said,
"Jim, do not drive."
378
00:23:53,284 --> 00:23:55,284
He said,
"We're going to send a helicopter."
379
00:23:55,318 --> 00:23:57,284
He said, "Where can it land?"
380
00:24:05,215 --> 00:24:06,801
He has three brothers,
381
00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:08,181
but he doesn't like two of them.
382
00:24:08,215 --> 00:24:09,939
The one he does like,
Jimmie Kiritsis,
383
00:24:09,974 --> 00:24:12,732
was called to his brother by
helicopter from Brown County.
384
00:24:12,767 --> 00:24:15,939
He,
Tony Kiritsis has rejected any attempts
385
00:24:15,974 --> 00:24:18,698
for anybody to get near the
apartment to talk with him.
386
00:24:18,732 --> 00:24:21,318
The situation is,
he says he's not insane,
387
00:24:21,353 --> 00:24:24,146
he knows what he's doing.
388
00:24:24,181 --> 00:24:25,318
Good, Josh, thank you.
389
00:24:25,353 --> 00:24:27,008
And, of course,
Josh is on the scene
390
00:24:27,043 --> 00:24:29,767
and any moment anything
develops there we'll be on the air.
391
00:24:29,801 --> 00:24:31,870
It was very obvious
from those early
392
00:24:31,905 --> 00:24:33,491
conversations that
we were dealing
393
00:24:33,525 --> 00:24:36,250
with somebody who is very,
very sick
394
00:24:36,284 --> 00:24:39,043
and was capable
of being violent.
395
00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:45,353
I'm going to mention
the evacuation.
396
00:24:45,387 --> 00:24:46,629
Beg pardon?
397
00:24:46,663 --> 00:24:48,284
I'm going to mention
the evacuation.
398
00:24:48,318 --> 00:24:49,629
Any reason to?
399
00:24:51,250 --> 00:24:53,836
To give us some
way to get into it.
400
00:24:53,870 --> 00:24:55,284
Do your own thing, but uh...
401
00:24:55,318 --> 00:24:57,008
Is there any
reason not to do it?
402
00:24:57,043 --> 00:24:58,284
Hell, I don't know.
403
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:00,801
If there's any reason not to.
404
00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:03,974
I've never done this before.
405
00:25:04,008 --> 00:25:05,594
Howard, the gunman, Mr. Kiritsis
406
00:25:05,629 --> 00:25:07,043
and the mortgage executive,
Mr. Hall,
407
00:25:07,077 --> 00:25:08,698
are still in the third
floor apartment.
408
00:25:08,732 --> 00:25:10,836
Nothing much has changed,
except that about 500
409
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:12,939
people are being evacuated
from these apartments.
410
00:25:12,974 --> 00:25:14,318
They're going to be
spending the night
411
00:25:14,353 --> 00:25:16,077
at various Indianapolis
area motels.
412
00:25:16,112 --> 00:25:18,525
Howard, we understand the
gunman is watching channel six.
413
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,525
He's made a request
and here to fulfill it we
414
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,250
have Deputy Marion County Prosecutor,
George Martz.
415
00:25:23,284 --> 00:25:25,870
Tony, as you know,
I've talked to you on the telephone.
416
00:25:25,905 --> 00:25:28,284
You've made certain
specific demands
417
00:25:28,318 --> 00:25:32,387
and in attempting to
comply with these demands
418
00:25:32,422 --> 00:25:34,801
I have requested a
personal friend of yours,
419
00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:38,629
Mr. Cliff Chapman,
to read a statement to you
420
00:25:38,663 --> 00:25:42,594
on behalf of Meridian
Mortgage and Hall-Hottel.
421
00:25:44,112 --> 00:25:46,146
This statement I
am reading has been
422
00:25:46,181 --> 00:25:49,043
authorized by Mr. M.L. Hall,
the Chairman
423
00:25:49,077 --> 00:25:51,560
of the Board of Meridian
Mortgage and Hall-Hottel.
424
00:25:51,594 --> 00:25:54,422
This is a public apology
to Anthony Kiritsis
425
00:25:54,456 --> 00:25:57,422
for all wrongs Meridian
Mortgage or Hall-Hottel
426
00:25:57,456 --> 00:26:02,146
have committed in respect to Mr. Kiritsis,
thank you.
427
00:26:02,181 --> 00:26:03,905
That was a statement
from Cliff Chapman
428
00:26:03,939 --> 00:26:05,250
of the mortgage company. Paul,
we're not allowed to
429
00:26:05,284 --> 00:26:06,663
ask Mr. Chapman any questions.
430
00:26:06,698 --> 00:26:08,215
That was one of
several demands made
431
00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:10,146
by the gunman Mr. Kiritsis.
He is an employee of the--
432
00:26:10,181 --> 00:26:12,284
This has been a special report
433
00:26:12,318 --> 00:26:13,525
from Eyewitness News Center.
434
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:14,801
Sorry,
there was a little confusion
435
00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:16,594
there and noise
in the background,
436
00:26:16,629 --> 00:26:18,629
but Kiritsis was angry,
apparently over
437
00:26:18,663 --> 00:26:21,732
the mortgage loan arrangement
with Mr. Hall's company.
438
00:26:21,767 --> 00:26:24,112
He demanded an apology,
demanded that
439
00:26:24,146 --> 00:26:26,353
any financial
remuneration that was going
440
00:26:26,387 --> 00:26:28,560
to come because of penalties,
because of
441
00:26:28,594 --> 00:26:31,181
what had been done,
be paid by the company.
442
00:26:31,215 --> 00:26:33,077
His demands were met,
he asked that
443
00:26:33,112 --> 00:26:35,560
it be on Channel
Six and on WIBC.
444
00:26:35,594 --> 00:26:38,043
And that is what
we know at this date.
445
00:26:38,077 --> 00:26:39,560
Hank, are you still out there?
446
00:26:39,594 --> 00:26:41,077
Yes, I'm here.
447
00:26:41,112 --> 00:26:43,422
Are there any other
demands that you know of?
448
00:26:43,456 --> 00:26:46,043
There apparently were
some other demands.
449
00:26:46,077 --> 00:26:50,250
Hold on a second,
I'll find out exactly what they are.
450
00:26:52,284 --> 00:26:56,146
No arrest,
no psychiatric treatment.
451
00:26:56,181 --> 00:26:58,318
The admission of
guilt by the people,
452
00:26:58,353 --> 00:27:01,525
which he has now received,
as well as
453
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,387
appropriate damages,
which again,
454
00:27:03,422 --> 00:27:05,525
were promised in the
statement here this evening.
455
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,698
As to whether it will
ensure Mr. Hall's release,
456
00:27:07,732 --> 00:27:09,112
that we'll have to wait and see.
457
00:27:09,146 --> 00:27:10,491
So that's what we've been doing
458
00:27:10,525 --> 00:27:12,491
as we've been doing all day,
just waiting.
459
00:27:12,525 --> 00:27:15,353
Thank you, both of you,
Hank and Dennis.
460
00:27:15,387 --> 00:27:17,146
We've brought
you this live report
461
00:27:17,181 --> 00:27:18,870
and the statement that was made
462
00:27:18,905 --> 00:27:20,491
because we have
been requested to
463
00:27:20,525 --> 00:27:21,974
do so by the police department.
464
00:27:22,008 --> 00:27:24,077
We believe in a case
like this it is important
465
00:27:24,112 --> 00:27:26,250
that we cooperate and I'm sure you'd agree,
too.
466
00:27:26,284 --> 00:27:28,422
We'll now return you to
our regular programming.
467
00:27:28,456 --> 00:27:30,146
We will keep you in touch of any
468
00:27:30,181 --> 00:27:32,387
other developments, goodnight.
469
00:27:32,422 --> 00:27:34,663
This has been a special report
470
00:27:34,698 --> 00:27:37,043
from Eyewitness News Center.
471
00:27:43,353 --> 00:27:45,560
Fred Heckman was the major domo
472
00:27:45,594 --> 00:27:48,974
here on news radio at that time,
WIBC.
473
00:27:49,008 --> 00:27:51,525
He was well respected
and he was like
474
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,250
a Walter Cronkite here in radio.
475
00:31:50,181 --> 00:31:51,008
♪ WIBC
476
00:31:52,836 --> 00:31:54,836
And Fred said
that at some point,
477
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:57,146
Jim Hillyard,
who was our program director,
478
00:31:57,181 --> 00:31:59,594
called him into the
office because they
479
00:31:59,629 --> 00:32:01,905
were all live on
the radio and said,
480
00:32:01,939 --> 00:32:05,077
"Fred, what are we going
to do about all those fucks?"
481
00:32:05,112 --> 00:32:07,663
Yes, I can, Jan,
and we have been here all night.
482
00:32:07,698 --> 00:32:09,836
At the beginning of the
night and right up until
483
00:32:09,870 --> 00:32:11,801
just a few minutes
ago there's been kind of
484
00:32:11,836 --> 00:32:14,146
an uneasy stillness around
the apartment complex.
485
00:32:14,181 --> 00:32:15,560
Now, in the last few minutes,
486
00:32:15,594 --> 00:32:17,112
things have become pretty tense.
487
00:32:17,146 --> 00:32:20,387
I'm standing here now
with Jimmie Kiritsis.
488
00:32:20,422 --> 00:32:24,250
He's not a desperado like
he's being painted up to be.
489
00:32:24,284 --> 00:32:25,663
He's not a thief.
490
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:28,422
He never asked for
a five million dollar
491
00:32:28,456 --> 00:32:29,974
ransom like it was reported.
492
00:32:30,008 --> 00:32:32,663
He never held my sister,
three years ago or last October,
493
00:32:32,698 --> 00:32:35,456
or whenever it was,
they said it was, for $50,000 dollars.
494
00:32:35,491 --> 00:32:37,560
Them statements are untrue.
495
00:32:37,594 --> 00:32:40,732
And naturally,
he's quite concerned
496
00:32:40,767 --> 00:32:43,663
with the profile that's
been painted of him.
497
00:32:43,698 --> 00:32:45,801
I would like to
resolve it if everybody's
498
00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:47,594
willing and
everything goes well,
499
00:32:47,629 --> 00:32:49,353
maybe we can
resolve it this morning.
500
00:32:49,387 --> 00:32:50,663
Okay.
501
00:32:50,698 --> 00:32:52,456
He started to make a
number of legal claims
502
00:32:52,491 --> 00:32:54,422
about how he had
been cheated and how
503
00:32:54,456 --> 00:32:56,284
he had these
legal claims against
504
00:32:56,318 --> 00:32:58,008
the Meridian Mortgage company.
505
00:32:58,043 --> 00:33:01,146
And also one of his
demands that they finally were
506
00:33:01,181 --> 00:33:04,146
able to get was that he
was not to be prosecuted.
507
00:33:04,181 --> 00:33:06,043
He called it an
immunity agreement.
508
00:33:06,077 --> 00:33:07,594
The local authorities said well,
509
00:33:07,629 --> 00:33:09,801
maybe we ought to get
some lawyers involved.
510
00:33:09,836 --> 00:33:12,284
At mid-afternoon,
one of Kiritsis attorneys,
511
00:33:12,318 --> 00:33:14,801
John Ruckelshaus,
came out to the apartment complex
512
00:33:14,836 --> 00:33:16,456
but would say nothing
about his decision.
513
00:33:16,491 --> 00:33:18,560
I got a call from Chief
Gallagher and says,
514
00:33:18,594 --> 00:33:21,353
Jack,
Tony wants you here as his lawyer.
515
00:33:21,387 --> 00:33:23,698
Well, you know,
like when Harry Truman
516
00:33:23,732 --> 00:33:26,008
sent me a telegram
and got me in the Army
517
00:33:26,043 --> 00:33:28,008
and I said yes, so out I went.
518
00:33:28,043 --> 00:33:30,767
Have you examined
the immunity offer yet?
519
00:33:30,801 --> 00:33:32,043
We don't know yet.
520
00:33:32,077 --> 00:33:33,560
We're just out here
and we're going in.
521
00:33:33,594 --> 00:33:35,077
That's all I can say.
522
00:33:35,112 --> 00:33:38,939
They both were brought in,
basically as lawyers for him.
523
00:33:38,974 --> 00:33:40,594
They were trying to defuse the
524
00:33:40,629 --> 00:33:44,215
situation as much
as everybody else.
525
00:33:44,250 --> 00:33:48,387
But at the same time
protecting their client's interests.
526
00:34:23,801 --> 00:34:25,250
Considered, no.
527
00:34:25,284 --> 00:34:26,698
Have there been any
additional demands?
528
00:34:26,732 --> 00:34:28,215
No additional demands.
529
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:30,284
What about the problem
with the immunity?
530
00:34:30,318 --> 00:34:31,801
Have you made up
your mind whether
531
00:34:31,836 --> 00:34:33,250
you're going to
give it to him or not?
532
00:34:33,284 --> 00:34:36,008
This is a problem that
will have to be resolved
533
00:34:36,043 --> 00:34:38,318
by the Marion County
Prosecutor's office.
534
00:34:38,353 --> 00:34:40,215
Well, what are they going to do?
535
00:34:40,250 --> 00:34:41,836
I mean,
is there any indication they're going
536
00:34:41,870 --> 00:34:43,560
to reject it or approve it,
or what?
537
00:34:43,594 --> 00:34:45,284
Immunity has been discussed a
538
00:34:45,318 --> 00:34:46,905
number of times
in the conversation.
539
00:34:46,939 --> 00:34:51,387
However,
there's been no resolution of the question.
540
00:34:51,422 --> 00:34:53,318
Basically, then,
we're at the same
541
00:34:53,353 --> 00:34:55,008
point we have been
for the past 30 hours.
542
00:34:55,043 --> 00:34:57,250
That's, he's calling the
shots and we're just waiting.
543
00:34:57,284 --> 00:34:59,870
That would be a pretty fair assessment,
yes.
544
00:34:59,905 --> 00:35:01,905
Apparently, Lou,
within the last 25
545
00:35:01,939 --> 00:35:04,836
or 30 minutes the situation
has deteriorated some.
546
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:06,939
To what extent,
exactly, we don't know,
547
00:35:06,974 --> 00:35:08,629
although there has
been a good deal
548
00:35:08,663 --> 00:35:10,215
of yelling and
screaming going on
549
00:35:10,250 --> 00:35:13,456
over the telephone
and through the door.
550
00:35:13,491 --> 00:35:15,801
It became apparent
to us during the course
551
00:35:15,836 --> 00:35:19,525
of this event that Tony
Kiritsis's real window
552
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,939
on what was occurring
was WIBC radio.
553
00:35:22,974 --> 00:35:25,525
He was in contact with Fred.
554
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,146
Fred was back in
contact with him,
555
00:35:28,181 --> 00:35:30,353
but he was also listening.
556
00:35:30,387 --> 00:35:32,456
The Army bomb squad that's here
557
00:35:32,491 --> 00:35:35,801
has begun to try and
think of ways to somehow
558
00:35:35,836 --> 00:35:38,974
get in without setting
off the explosives.
559
00:35:39,008 --> 00:35:41,767
We're told unofficially,
they could get in without
560
00:35:41,801 --> 00:35:45,801
setting them off if Kiritsis
were incapacitated.
561
00:35:47,043 --> 00:35:49,560
That particular moment
when the report went
562
00:35:49,594 --> 00:35:51,870
that the S.W.A.T. team
was prepared to move,
563
00:35:51,905 --> 00:35:54,732
it became
frighteningly clear what
564
00:35:55,698 --> 00:35:57,560
kind of implication there was to
565
00:35:57,594 --> 00:36:00,870
this kind of live
broadcast journalism.
566
00:38:16,284 --> 00:38:19,250
Paul, the situation right
now is actually rather tense.
567
00:38:19,284 --> 00:38:21,974
Within the past 20
minutes Tony Kiritsis
568
00:38:22,008 --> 00:38:25,250
gave an order that everyone
get out of the building.
569
00:38:25,284 --> 00:38:27,629
There, of course,
have been police in the building
570
00:38:27,663 --> 00:38:29,594
as well as some
friends and relatives
571
00:38:29,629 --> 00:38:31,353
of Tony who have
been talking with him.
572
00:38:31,387 --> 00:38:33,422
He gave an order to
get out of the building.
573
00:38:33,456 --> 00:38:35,974
You don't want to say
anything to set the guy off.
574
00:38:36,008 --> 00:38:38,732
And maybe what
you're saying doesn't
575
00:38:38,767 --> 00:38:41,663
appear to be incendiary,
but it is.
576
00:39:04,525 --> 00:39:06,663
So Fred was kind of thrust into
577
00:39:06,698 --> 00:39:09,146
the position as a negotiator.
578
00:39:18,801 --> 00:39:19,594
Do it.
579
00:39:19,629 --> 00:39:21,146
Okay.
580
00:39:21,181 --> 00:39:22,456
We're not live,
just go ahead and do the interview.
581
00:39:22,491 --> 00:39:23,629
Okay, fine, fine.
582
00:39:23,663 --> 00:39:25,284
Okay,
they're setting up a negotiating
583
00:39:25,318 --> 00:39:27,146
team inside this
van in back of us.
584
00:39:27,181 --> 00:39:29,594
How effective do
you think that will be?
585
00:39:29,629 --> 00:39:33,456
Well, I think at this time we
have to try almost anything.
586
00:39:33,491 --> 00:39:36,284
Tony is coherent enough
to reason with somebody
587
00:39:36,318 --> 00:39:39,112
and his attorney is
talking on his behalf.
588
00:39:39,146 --> 00:39:41,974
And I think it will
be productive.
589
00:39:47,663 --> 00:39:51,043
And then the FBI
sent in this hostage
590
00:39:51,077 --> 00:39:56,008
negotiator psychologist who
had a heck of a reputation.
591
00:39:56,043 --> 00:39:59,732
I mean, he had a countrywide
reputation on these things.
592
00:39:59,767 --> 00:40:02,284
And he, of course,
was trying to size Tony up
593
00:40:02,318 --> 00:40:06,456
as to how to handle him and
how to direct questions to him,
594
00:40:07,905 --> 00:40:10,456
don't get him excited
and all this kind of stuff.
595
00:40:10,491 --> 00:40:12,939
And he really knew
what he was doing.
596
00:40:12,974 --> 00:40:17,491
I had a fella in class
and it was Mr. Gallagher.
597
00:40:17,525 --> 00:40:20,905
He got on the phone
to the director of the FBI
598
00:40:20,939 --> 00:40:22,732
and asked if I could be sent out
599
00:40:22,767 --> 00:40:25,767
there to assist
them in negotiating.
600
00:40:26,767 --> 00:40:28,387
He was the first person that
601
00:40:28,422 --> 00:40:30,077
described himself as a profiler
602
00:40:30,112 --> 00:40:32,181
and I'd never even
heard the term before.
603
00:40:32,215 --> 00:40:35,284
But he said that he could,
by looking at
604
00:40:35,318 --> 00:40:39,146
how Mr. Kiritsis had built
his gun and how he dressed,
605
00:40:39,181 --> 00:40:43,353
he pretty much had
Tony's mental side pegged.
606
00:40:43,387 --> 00:40:46,491
He's the one that then
told us certain things to do
607
00:40:46,525 --> 00:40:49,905
and certain things not
to do in dealing with him.
608
00:40:49,939 --> 00:40:52,629
And in formulating our
approach of basically
609
00:40:52,663 --> 00:40:55,974
conceding to Tony,
that was all based upon
610
00:40:56,008 --> 00:40:59,905
the psychology of Mr. Kiritsis
that Patrick came up with.
611
00:40:59,939 --> 00:41:02,318
He said that a person
with this personality type
612
00:41:02,353 --> 00:41:04,422
needs to be in
control of the situation.
613
00:41:04,456 --> 00:41:07,422
And anytime that you
try to take that back,
614
00:41:07,456 --> 00:41:09,560
then we're going
to have a situation
615
00:41:09,594 --> 00:41:11,491
that becomes very,
very dangerous.
616
00:41:11,525 --> 00:41:14,353
In Indianapolis a man
named Anthony Kiritsis
617
00:41:14,387 --> 00:41:17,112
is still holding a hostage,
a real estate executive.
618
00:41:17,146 --> 00:41:18,767
The drama is in its second day
619
00:41:18,801 --> 00:41:21,491
and our man,
Mike Jackson, is there.
620
00:41:21,525 --> 00:41:23,767
What kind of a man
is Anthony Kiritsis?
621
00:41:23,801 --> 00:41:25,698
Friends of his who
have come out to
622
00:41:25,732 --> 00:41:27,629
the apartment
complex to dissuade him
623
00:41:27,663 --> 00:41:29,422
from doing anything
rash say he is
624
00:41:29,456 --> 00:41:32,353
an emotional man,
a man prone to anger.
625
00:41:32,387 --> 00:41:35,836
Police say he has a record,
mainly for beating people up.
626
00:41:35,870 --> 00:41:38,353
One policeman,
who didn't want to be identified,
627
00:41:38,387 --> 00:41:40,456
a man who said he
grew up with Kiritsis,
628
00:41:40,491 --> 00:41:43,491
says he is a good
friend and a bad enemy.
629
00:41:43,525 --> 00:41:46,008
He had purchased
this 17 acres of land
630
00:41:46,043 --> 00:41:48,077
and cleared many
of the trees himself,
631
00:41:48,112 --> 00:41:49,836
hoping to start a
shopping center.
632
00:41:49,870 --> 00:41:51,767
He said he had some
commitments from
633
00:41:51,801 --> 00:41:53,422
a grocery store
chain offering about
634
00:41:53,456 --> 00:41:55,422
three million dollars
to start a center.
635
00:41:55,456 --> 00:41:57,250
Then he says the
mortgage company
636
00:41:57,284 --> 00:41:58,939
moved in and lured
the prospective
637
00:41:58,974 --> 00:42:00,801
clients away to
other properties.
638
00:42:00,836 --> 00:42:02,525
One of Kiritsis'
demands was that
639
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,801
the company apologize
for that and it did.
640
00:42:05,836 --> 00:42:07,767
Today,
Kiritsis said in a radio station
641
00:42:07,801 --> 00:42:09,870
telephone interview
he does not believe
642
00:42:09,905 --> 00:42:12,456
the company's apology
and intends to go free.
643
00:42:12,491 --> 00:42:14,594
Authorities say their
only hope is to keep
644
00:42:14,629 --> 00:42:16,801
Kiritsis talking,
so his family and friends
645
00:42:16,836 --> 00:42:19,353
are doing that through
the door of his apartment.
646
00:42:19,387 --> 00:42:20,974
They are convinced that if the
647
00:42:21,008 --> 00:42:23,456
talking stops people will die.
648
00:42:23,491 --> 00:42:27,008
Mike Jackson,
NBC News, Indianapolis.
649
00:42:34,215 --> 00:42:36,284
Kevin, it may well be that Fred
650
00:42:36,318 --> 00:42:39,732
has become perhaps
involved in negotiations.
651
00:42:39,767 --> 00:42:42,077
He merely got a
phone call from the FBI,
652
00:42:42,112 --> 00:42:44,008
they asked him to
come out as quickly
653
00:42:44,043 --> 00:42:46,560
as possible and he has done so.
654
00:42:46,594 --> 00:42:49,250
We were able to sit down
with Fred and tell Fred,
655
00:42:49,284 --> 00:42:54,043
hey, make upbeat comments,
get him pepped up again.
656
00:42:54,077 --> 00:42:58,250
And he would do it and all of
a sudden Kiritsis responded.
657
00:44:57,974 --> 00:45:00,491
They could understand
a mood and understand
658
00:45:00,525 --> 00:45:04,181
a mood well enough to
sort of utilize where it is
659
00:45:04,215 --> 00:45:08,870
in an up or a down cycle
to control and manipulate.
660
00:45:08,905 --> 00:45:10,525
I thought that was fascinating.
661
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,250
Kiritsis was pretty
easy to chart.
662
00:45:13,284 --> 00:45:15,767
But what you had
to be very careful,
663
00:45:15,801 --> 00:45:18,594
when he was down
in that low level
664
00:45:18,629 --> 00:45:22,456
that's the area where
despair sets in and they
665
00:45:23,594 --> 00:45:27,077
make judgments like
I've nothing to live for,
666
00:45:28,215 --> 00:45:30,732
so I might as
well kill this SOB.
667
00:45:33,905 --> 00:45:36,008
There have been
some published reports
668
00:45:36,043 --> 00:45:38,387
this afternoon quoting
prosecutor James Kelly,
669
00:45:38,422 --> 00:45:40,974
who has been out of
town during this incident,
670
00:45:41,008 --> 00:45:43,146
he's in Los Angeles
attending a conference,
671
00:45:43,181 --> 00:45:45,181
quoting Kelly as
saying that if immunity
672
00:45:45,215 --> 00:45:47,491
from arrest is what's
needed to prevent death
673
00:45:47,525 --> 00:45:51,353
or prevent injury,
he is prepared to grant it.
674
00:45:54,318 --> 00:45:56,215
Good evening, I'm in a room near
675
00:45:56,250 --> 00:45:58,491
the police headquarters
outside the apartment
676
00:45:58,525 --> 00:46:01,077
of Tony Kiritsis where he's
holding Dick Hall hostage.
677
00:46:01,112 --> 00:46:02,732
We've been requested airtime by
678
00:46:02,767 --> 00:46:05,491
the Marion County
Public Prosecutor's office
679
00:46:05,525 --> 00:46:07,146
in order to give an address by
680
00:46:07,181 --> 00:46:09,318
Deputy County
Prosecutor George Martz,
681
00:46:09,353 --> 00:46:12,008
an address apparently
aimed at Tony Kiritsis himself.
682
00:46:12,043 --> 00:46:13,422
Now, here's Mr. Martz.
683
00:46:13,456 --> 00:46:17,284
Thank you,
at this time I would like to read
684
00:46:17,318 --> 00:46:21,043
a letter from the office of
the prosecuting attorney
685
00:46:21,077 --> 00:46:24,560
of Marion County,
James F. Kelly, prosecutor.
686
00:46:24,594 --> 00:46:27,939
This document is dated February 9,
1977.
687
00:46:29,422 --> 00:46:31,077
It's entitled letter of immunity
688
00:46:31,112 --> 00:46:34,491
granted to Anthony
George Kiritsis.
689
00:46:34,525 --> 00:46:36,870
Mr. Anthony George Kiritsis,
690
00:46:38,181 --> 00:46:41,594
the Marion County prosecutor,
James F. Kelly,
691
00:46:41,629 --> 00:46:44,732
does hereby confer and grant to
692
00:46:44,767 --> 00:46:49,560
Anthony George Kiritsis
immunity from prosecution
693
00:46:49,594 --> 00:46:52,939
with reference to the
abduction of Richard Hall
694
00:46:52,974 --> 00:46:56,836
and all subsequent
acts done or alleged
695
00:46:56,870 --> 00:46:58,836
to have been done or caused by
696
00:46:58,870 --> 00:47:01,456
the said Anthony
George Kiritsis.
697
00:47:01,491 --> 00:47:04,870
This document is
signed James F. Kelly,
698
00:47:04,905 --> 00:47:07,560
authorized by David L. Rimstidt.
699
00:47:09,905 --> 00:47:12,250
Mr. Kelly has been contacted by
700
00:47:12,284 --> 00:47:14,767
myself on two occasions today,
701
00:47:16,353 --> 00:47:19,767
the last time approximately
10 minutes ago.
702
00:47:19,801 --> 00:47:22,801
He is fully aware
of this agreement
703
00:47:22,836 --> 00:47:25,215
and you have his
assurance that the terms
704
00:47:25,250 --> 00:47:28,905
of this agreement will
be strictly enforced.
705
00:47:31,318 --> 00:47:33,629
I know there were
some meetings there
706
00:47:33,663 --> 00:47:37,491
where Ruckelshaus
confronted Rimstidt after
707
00:47:37,525 --> 00:47:41,353
the immunity tender
was made and put him
708
00:47:41,387 --> 00:47:45,318
on the spot and said,
"Do you intend to honor this?"
709
00:47:45,353 --> 00:47:48,732
Used some colorful
language in that regard.
710
00:47:48,767 --> 00:47:51,284
And, as he described,
Rimstidt making
711
00:47:51,318 --> 00:47:54,318
some squirms and
turns and said yes.
712
00:47:56,250 --> 00:47:58,905
A few moments ago I spoke
with Tony's brother, Jimmie,
713
00:47:58,939 --> 00:48:02,318
to see how he feels
about the offer of immunity.
714
00:48:02,353 --> 00:48:03,939
If you just bear with us maybe
715
00:48:03,974 --> 00:48:05,422
we'll have something, hopefully.
716
00:48:05,456 --> 00:48:06,836
When was the last
time you talked to Tony?
717
00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:08,181
I talked to him this morning.
718
00:48:08,215 --> 00:48:09,215
Is he still calm?
719
00:48:09,250 --> 00:48:10,422
Yes, very calm.
720
00:48:10,456 --> 00:48:11,974
How do you feel about
the offer of immunity?
721
00:48:12,008 --> 00:48:13,181
Do you think it's a good one?
722
00:48:13,215 --> 00:48:14,353
Yes, it's a very good one.
723
00:48:14,387 --> 00:48:16,112
Have you recommended it to Tony?
724
00:48:16,146 --> 00:48:17,594
I told him it was
a very good one.
725
00:48:17,629 --> 00:48:19,870
I don't recommend it,
he can, he's very capable
726
00:48:19,905 --> 00:48:22,456
and very intelligent and
he'll make up his own mind.
727
00:48:22,491 --> 00:48:24,456
From your point of view,
though, it's a good one?
728
00:48:24,491 --> 00:48:26,870
Yes, it's a, under the circumstance,
a very good one.
729
00:48:26,905 --> 00:48:28,422
He may just walk away.
730
00:48:28,456 --> 00:48:30,525
Are you hopeful this
thing can wind up today?
731
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:31,974
Yes.
732
00:48:32,008 --> 00:48:34,284
Let me ask you another question.
733
00:48:34,318 --> 00:48:37,870
If immunity is granted,
what effect might this have,
734
00:48:37,905 --> 00:48:40,284
do you think,
on people who might be
735
00:48:40,318 --> 00:48:42,318
considering the
same course of action?
736
00:48:42,353 --> 00:48:44,008
Some people might
consider that this
737
00:48:44,043 --> 00:48:46,250
would encourage them
to do this kind of thing.
738
00:48:46,284 --> 00:48:47,767
What do you think?
739
00:48:49,870 --> 00:48:51,594
Well,
I think that's a possibility,
740
00:48:51,629 --> 00:48:53,284
but I don't think it
has anything to do
741
00:48:53,318 --> 00:48:55,422
with the situation that
we're confronted with.
742
00:48:55,456 --> 00:48:56,663
I mean, that possibility.
743
00:48:56,698 --> 00:48:59,181
We had to do what was
necessary and it's been
744
00:48:59,215 --> 00:49:01,318
worked out to
everyone's satisfaction.
745
00:49:01,353 --> 00:49:03,905
The police agencies
were thoroughly consulted,
746
00:49:03,939 --> 00:49:05,801
prosecutor's office
worked with them.
747
00:49:05,836 --> 00:49:07,974
And in this particular instance
748
00:49:08,008 --> 00:49:10,043
it was the thing that was done.
749
00:49:10,077 --> 00:49:11,732
Do you think the public would
750
00:49:11,767 --> 00:49:13,801
accept the man who
had put a shotgun
751
00:49:13,836 --> 00:49:16,560
to another man's
head going free?
752
00:49:19,353 --> 00:49:21,043
Well, there's going to be some
753
00:49:21,077 --> 00:49:22,870
that will object to it, sure.
754
00:49:22,905 --> 00:49:24,801
And there's going
to be some that will
755
00:49:24,836 --> 00:49:26,491
think that it was the
proper thing to do.
756
00:49:26,525 --> 00:49:30,698
We're going to be second-guessed,
but that's part of life.
757
00:49:32,698 --> 00:49:35,043
The big demand
has been immunity.
758
00:49:35,077 --> 00:49:37,284
First,
the opportunity to voice his complaint
759
00:49:37,318 --> 00:49:39,422
against the mortgage
company of which Hall
760
00:49:39,456 --> 00:49:41,974
is an executive, but secondly,
the grant of immunity,
761
00:49:42,008 --> 00:49:43,939
that nothing be
done to him because
762
00:49:43,974 --> 00:49:45,939
of what Tony Kiritsis has done.
763
00:49:45,974 --> 00:49:49,560
That offer has been offered,
that offer has been made
764
00:49:49,594 --> 00:49:52,905
to Tony Kiritsis by the Marion
County Prosecutor's office.
765
00:49:52,939 --> 00:49:56,767
And the big question
tonight as it was last night,
766
00:49:56,801 --> 00:49:58,801
and as it was this morning,
is whether
767
00:49:58,836 --> 00:50:01,146
Tony Kiritsis is
going to accept that.
768
00:50:01,181 --> 00:50:03,422
The sun is setting out here,
but the story
769
00:50:03,456 --> 00:50:06,353
is certainly far,
far from over and so we wait.
770
00:50:11,491 --> 00:50:15,077
And then we have the
concept of creating a stage.
771
00:50:15,112 --> 00:50:17,181
That's why we
all retreated to the
772
00:50:17,215 --> 00:50:19,146
lobby of that
apartment building.
773
00:50:19,181 --> 00:50:23,560
That was meant for him to
see on television to suck him out.
774
00:50:23,594 --> 00:50:25,905
We knew that once
he saw it he'd say
775
00:50:25,939 --> 00:50:29,077
to himself,
that's where I should be.
776
00:50:29,112 --> 00:50:30,767
Right, I talked to him, I bet,
777
00:50:30,801 --> 00:50:33,629
half a dozen times on the phone.
778
00:50:33,663 --> 00:50:37,525
The last of which I called
him and said we got the note,
779
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,284
promissory note
for five million bucks.
780
00:50:40,318 --> 00:50:42,698
No answer,
phone rang, rang, rang
781
00:50:42,732 --> 00:50:44,974
and the next thing I
heard somebody said,
782
00:50:45,008 --> 00:50:47,836
"Oh God, here he comes down."
783
00:50:47,870 --> 00:50:50,456
He's coming out,
he's coming out!
784
00:51:04,663 --> 00:51:07,077
While you people are watching
785
00:51:07,112 --> 00:51:10,284
on television thank
you for taking such a--
786
00:51:10,318 --> 00:51:12,732
We interrupt our
program schedule
787
00:51:12,767 --> 00:51:16,939
to bring you the following
special report from ABC News.
788
00:51:17,836 --> 00:51:20,318
Turn the goddamn cameras on!
789
00:51:21,318 --> 00:51:23,491
I'm gonna show you something.
790
00:51:23,525 --> 00:51:26,318
Read that, pal, read it!
791
00:51:26,353 --> 00:51:28,560
Turn the cameras on,
all three, hold it!
792
00:51:28,594 --> 00:51:30,560
I want on national television!
793
00:51:30,594 --> 00:51:32,870
I've been called a kidnapper,
794
00:51:32,905 --> 00:51:37,112
an extortionist,
a thug and everything else!
795
00:51:37,146 --> 00:51:40,698
I want it on all three
national channels!
796
00:51:40,732 --> 00:51:42,801
I've got friends all
over the country!
797
00:51:42,836 --> 00:51:43,836
You read it!
798
00:51:45,043 --> 00:51:47,732
And I go through
the double doors
799
00:51:47,767 --> 00:51:49,939
and I am struck
by what is the most
800
00:51:49,974 --> 00:51:52,594
bizarre scene I've
ever seen in my life.
801
00:51:52,629 --> 00:51:57,215
They goddamn near made
me blow his goddamn brains out!
802
00:51:57,250 --> 00:52:00,387
We have these ranking
officers and Fred Heckman
803
00:52:00,422 --> 00:52:04,043
standing behind Tony
who's holding the gun
804
00:52:04,077 --> 00:52:07,215
to Dick's head and
out here in the audience
805
00:52:07,250 --> 00:52:09,387
are all of these
cameras and reporters.
806
00:52:09,422 --> 00:52:13,594
And it's as though the oxygen
has gone out of the room.
807
00:52:13,629 --> 00:52:15,318
Everybody is on edge.
808
00:52:15,353 --> 00:52:16,905
To as being the illegal--
809
00:52:16,939 --> 00:52:21,456
Hold it, hold it,
I want this goddamn thing understood.
810
00:52:21,491 --> 00:52:22,560
I'll read it!
811
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,284
February 10th, 1977,
I want a glass of water!
812
00:52:31,491 --> 00:52:33,043
This statement is
being made to try
813
00:52:33,077 --> 00:52:35,939
and state the items
that Mr. Kiritsis alludes,
814
00:52:35,974 --> 00:52:37,456
and I don't like that word.
815
00:52:37,491 --> 00:52:40,008
I charged and
they've admitted it.
816
00:52:40,043 --> 00:52:42,284
Alludes to as being illegal and
817
00:52:42,318 --> 00:52:45,112
unethical acts
of the Hall Group.
818
00:52:51,801 --> 00:52:55,525
This lease negotiation
approved the Kiritsis site
819
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,008
and had a definite
interest in building there.
820
00:52:59,043 --> 00:53:00,663
Give me a drink, pal.
821
00:53:00,698 --> 00:53:02,146
Give me a drink.
822
00:53:04,387 --> 00:53:05,491
Good enough?
823
00:53:05,525 --> 00:53:06,491
Alright, go easy.
824
00:53:06,525 --> 00:53:08,146
Yeah, and I'm sober friends.
825
00:53:08,181 --> 00:53:12,732
I had six drinks in 1976 and
I haven't had any this year.
826
00:53:12,767 --> 00:53:15,284
This was presented to
us and was potentially
827
00:53:15,318 --> 00:53:17,284
a good business deal,
but we found
828
00:53:17,318 --> 00:53:19,318
it impossible to agree on terms
829
00:53:19,353 --> 00:53:22,077
satisfactory to
our best interest.
830
00:53:22,112 --> 00:53:23,284
Their best interest!
831
00:53:23,318 --> 00:53:26,250
I went up there to
borrow money to build
832
00:53:26,284 --> 00:53:28,870
a 10,000 foot restaurant
that would have grossed
833
00:53:28,905 --> 00:53:31,456
between a million and
two million bucks a year and
834
00:53:31,491 --> 00:53:34,043
these motherfuckers
shopped it to somebody else!
835
00:53:34,077 --> 00:53:36,525
I had a lessee who guaranteed me
836
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,870
$100,000 dollars a
year rent plus 10% over
837
00:53:39,905 --> 00:53:41,974
a million dollars
and I could have built
838
00:53:42,008 --> 00:53:44,905
the building for
$220,000 bucks and put
839
00:53:44,939 --> 00:53:48,422
$100,000 dollars
worth of equipment in it!
840
00:53:49,905 --> 00:53:51,491
Listen to this one.
841
00:53:52,456 --> 00:53:53,974
It's almost funny.
842
00:53:55,456 --> 00:53:56,732
This trooper right here.
843
00:53:56,767 --> 00:53:58,767
Come here, Mark,
hell of a good friend of mine.
844
00:53:58,801 --> 00:54:00,629
A lot of friends of
mine here seen me,
845
00:54:00,663 --> 00:54:02,905
has seen me
about every night for
846
00:54:02,939 --> 00:54:04,801
three or four years
out in a couple
847
00:54:04,836 --> 00:54:07,008
of restaurants around
here having coffee.
848
00:54:07,043 --> 00:54:09,422
Too goddamn desperate
to do anything else.
849
00:54:09,456 --> 00:54:12,043
So goddamn mad,
couldn't think good
850
00:54:12,077 --> 00:54:15,456
and he always wondered what was wrong,
now he knows.
851
00:54:15,491 --> 00:54:16,284
Right, Mark?
852
00:54:16,318 --> 00:54:17,491
Yes, man.
853
00:54:17,525 --> 00:54:19,284
Hell of a man,
good cop, this guy.
854
00:54:19,318 --> 00:54:20,181
Good cop.
855
00:54:21,353 --> 00:54:23,077
His eyes, the eyes of Tony
856
00:54:23,112 --> 00:54:25,146
will occasionally
dart around the room,
857
00:54:25,181 --> 00:54:26,939
and if he will,
if he sees someone
858
00:54:26,974 --> 00:54:28,905
he recognizes he
will acknowledge them
859
00:54:28,939 --> 00:54:31,594
and perhaps have a
comment or two about them.
860
00:54:31,629 --> 00:54:34,387
All week he has
talked about revenge.
861
00:54:34,422 --> 00:54:37,905
Part of that revenge is
being acted out tonight.
862
00:54:37,939 --> 00:54:40,456
And almost an empty
and hollow look in the eyes
863
00:54:40,491 --> 00:54:42,974
of Dick Hall as he
gazes around the room.
864
00:54:43,008 --> 00:54:45,284
And he will make eye
contact with people,
865
00:54:45,318 --> 00:54:47,732
but it's almost as though he is,
it's just
866
00:54:47,767 --> 00:54:50,560
a proforma gesture
showing very little emotion.
867
00:54:50,594 --> 00:54:52,663
Yeah, I suspect he must believe
868
00:54:52,698 --> 00:54:56,801
that is what he must do
because he could trigger
869
00:54:56,836 --> 00:55:00,491
the situation if he should
react one way or the other.
870
00:55:00,525 --> 00:55:03,215
This brave young man and
his father would have said,
871
00:55:03,250 --> 00:55:05,215
Tony I'll tell you what
we're going to do.
872
00:55:05,250 --> 00:55:07,456
Because you're a nice fella and basically,
really,
873
00:55:07,491 --> 00:55:09,801
we love you,
we wouldn't hurt you for anything,
874
00:55:09,836 --> 00:55:11,767
we'll take the cream,
we'll take the front
875
00:55:11,801 --> 00:55:14,112
10 acres there for
$130,000 and you can have
876
00:55:14,146 --> 00:55:17,318
the back seven
where all the hogs shit.
877
00:55:17,353 --> 00:55:19,663
Mr. M.L. Hall,
this gentleman's father
878
00:55:19,698 --> 00:55:22,767
also states that
he personally takes
879
00:55:22,801 --> 00:55:26,112
responsibility for
these improprieties.
880
00:55:26,146 --> 00:55:29,077
I'm gonna frame that,
I'm through.
881
00:55:29,112 --> 00:55:30,801
Where's my attorney?
882
00:55:30,836 --> 00:55:33,491
He had this thing about he
wanted everybody to hear
883
00:55:33,525 --> 00:55:36,077
what had been done to him,
how he was wronged.
884
00:55:36,112 --> 00:55:39,112
I mean, that was his litany
over and over and over again.
885
00:55:39,146 --> 00:55:40,905
Should we keep on with this,
what if
886
00:55:40,939 --> 00:55:42,767
he kills this man in
front of everybody?
887
00:55:42,801 --> 00:55:44,836
Let alone the language
which was not heard
888
00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:46,939
on TV at that time
on any channel.
889
00:55:46,974 --> 00:55:48,560
And it was surreal.
890
00:55:49,939 --> 00:55:52,491
I think he wanted to
tell his side of the story.
891
00:55:52,525 --> 00:55:55,663
As far as the public knew
Kiritsis was a madman.
892
00:55:55,698 --> 00:55:58,318
He was bright enough
that he understood that
893
00:55:58,353 --> 00:56:00,594
and saw how he
was being portrayed.
894
00:56:00,629 --> 00:56:04,836
And so I think he called
Fred to try to get his story out.
895
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:07,008
If I can get Fred to
let me air my side of
896
00:56:07,043 --> 00:56:10,181
the story then maybe
people will see my point.
897
00:56:10,215 --> 00:56:11,181
Hi, Fred.
898
00:56:11,215 --> 00:56:12,698
Hello, Tony.
899
00:56:12,732 --> 00:56:13,698
You're gonna be late for
work in the morning, pal.
900
00:56:13,732 --> 00:56:15,215
I think I'm gonna sleep late.
901
00:56:15,250 --> 00:56:17,491
I don't know if you can get away with that,
can you?
902
00:56:17,525 --> 00:56:19,353
Not really.
903
00:56:19,387 --> 00:56:21,077
I have to, I have to say again
904
00:56:21,112 --> 00:56:23,215
that Mr. Fred
Heckman here of WIBC.
905
00:56:23,250 --> 00:56:26,387
Fred Heckman,
in my opinion, was a jewel.
906
00:56:26,422 --> 00:56:30,008
He was thrown
into a bad situation,
907
00:56:30,043 --> 00:56:32,905
but he was a gentleman
through the whole damn thing.
908
00:56:32,939 --> 00:56:35,525
I have some people that
might be watching this
909
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,387
in various places and
I'm not trying to be funny.
910
00:56:39,422 --> 00:56:41,077
And I never did like notoriety
911
00:56:41,112 --> 00:56:43,491
and I don't like it
any better tonight,
912
00:56:43,525 --> 00:56:47,663
but my aunts in Akron,
Ohio and my cousins
913
00:56:47,698 --> 00:56:51,387
and some damn good Greek
friends in the state of Florida,
914
00:56:51,422 --> 00:56:55,181
and some people I was in
the Army with in New England.
915
00:56:55,215 --> 00:56:59,112
And I want them to know that,
by God, I was right.
916
00:56:59,146 --> 00:57:01,215
Lee and Lou, Paul Page is back
917
00:57:01,250 --> 00:57:03,284
in the back of the room
now and we're going
918
00:57:03,318 --> 00:57:05,008
to try and make some
contact with Paul.
919
00:57:05,043 --> 00:57:06,491
Go ahead, Paul.
920
00:57:06,525 --> 00:57:08,905
Tom, we continue to watch
in the back of the room.
921
00:57:08,939 --> 00:57:10,629
I'm keeping my
voice low because of
922
00:57:10,663 --> 00:57:12,387
the nature of the
circumstance here.
923
00:57:12,422 --> 00:57:16,284
We have a man who
is very anxiety-prone.
924
00:57:16,318 --> 00:57:18,870
He continues to stand
with an automatic shotgun
925
00:57:18,905 --> 00:57:21,318
jammed up against the
back of the man's skull.
926
00:57:21,353 --> 00:57:24,870
Tony continues to
move from a position
927
00:57:24,905 --> 00:57:28,181
of happiness to one of
somewhat depression.
928
00:57:28,215 --> 00:57:31,250
It's a very, very,
very dangerous atmosphere at the moment.
929
00:57:31,284 --> 00:57:33,905
If the shotgun fell there's
no real change in the room,
930
00:57:33,939 --> 00:57:35,870
it would not only
injure his hostage,
931
00:57:35,905 --> 00:57:38,560
it's going to injure an awful
lot of people in this room.
932
00:57:38,594 --> 00:57:40,974
We'll continue to watch
and we'll report back.
933
00:57:41,008 --> 00:57:45,250
And I also want to
apologize to this man's family.
934
00:57:45,284 --> 00:57:49,284
I am sorry I humiliated this man,
this way,
935
00:57:49,318 --> 00:57:53,146
even though he must
have surely had it coming.
936
00:58:03,732 --> 00:58:05,836
Every once in a
while he'd look at Hall
937
00:58:05,870 --> 00:58:07,456
and the back of his head,
and boy,
938
00:58:07,491 --> 00:58:09,146
and the look on his face,
I thought,
939
00:58:09,181 --> 00:58:10,974
oh God,
he's going to pull that trigger.
940
00:58:11,008 --> 00:58:12,974
I went to Gene
Gallagher and I said,
941
00:58:13,008 --> 00:58:16,318
Gene,
I'm getting a little nervous.
942
00:58:16,353 --> 00:58:18,525
He's almost sounding suicidal.
943
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:20,974
And Mullaney was
standing right next to me
944
00:58:21,008 --> 00:58:23,939
and he said, my God,
he's going to shoot him on television.
945
00:58:23,974 --> 00:58:26,181
That was the scariest part,
to me.
946
00:58:26,215 --> 00:58:28,801
He would laugh and
then he would cry.
947
00:58:30,974 --> 00:58:35,146
Yeah, yeah,
you know for a goddamn dummy I lucked out.
948
00:58:39,836 --> 00:58:41,870
I want to take,
I'd like to please,
949
00:58:41,905 --> 00:58:45,215
a lot of nice people called
me in two or three days
950
00:58:45,250 --> 00:58:47,560
and told me that
they were behind me.
951
00:58:47,594 --> 00:58:48,698
We're behind you, Tony.
952
00:58:48,732 --> 00:58:50,077
And I want to thank them.
953
00:58:50,112 --> 00:58:51,456
We're behind you, Tony.
954
00:58:51,491 --> 00:58:53,801
I want to thank my brothers,
Jimmie and George
955
00:58:53,836 --> 00:58:56,077
and Mark and John, Johnny there.
956
00:58:56,112 --> 00:58:59,560
I can't think of his last name,
Johnny Ferguson.
957
00:59:02,974 --> 00:59:05,629
Billy Cotton and the
people that supported me.
958
00:59:05,663 --> 00:59:09,043
And I can tell you,
by God, I was in trouble.
959
00:59:09,077 --> 00:59:11,284
I was in a hell
of a lot of trouble.
960
00:59:11,318 --> 00:59:13,353
You saw one of these
goddamn things off
961
00:59:13,387 --> 00:59:15,663
and kidnap somebody I'm
going to tell you something,
962
00:59:15,698 --> 00:59:17,974
I'm sorry,
but there ain't much left in that old road.
963
00:59:18,008 --> 00:59:20,422
I said when I started out
I figured I'd be on a long,
964
00:59:20,456 --> 00:59:24,629
narrow, one-way dead end
road and that's what it was.
965
00:59:29,077 --> 00:59:33,112
Tony was becoming so riled
up that Gallagher was going,
966
00:59:33,146 --> 00:59:36,284
okay, this is it, you know,
I've got to do something.
967
00:59:36,318 --> 00:59:40,077
Because he's going to blow
this guy's head off on live TV.
968
00:59:40,112 --> 00:59:43,491
If they felt that
Tony had finally gone
969
00:59:43,525 --> 00:59:45,767
to the point too far
that he was going to
970
00:59:45,801 --> 00:59:49,974
eliminate Dick Hall,
Tony was going to be taken out.
971
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,043
Chief Gallagher told Josh,
when I retire
972
00:59:55,077 --> 00:59:58,250
come talk to me about
the plan to kill Tony.
973
00:59:58,284 --> 01:00:01,560
They had talked to a doctor
at the hospital and said,
974
01:00:01,594 --> 01:00:04,974
what's the best way
to kill Tony instantly?
975
01:00:05,008 --> 01:00:09,181
And he said, put a gun behind
his ear and pull the trigger.
976
01:00:11,008 --> 01:00:13,422
My role, if I was given the nod,
977
01:00:13,456 --> 01:00:16,560
was to try to jam
the shotgun itself with
978
01:00:16,594 --> 01:00:19,284
the cylinder on the side
where you eject shells.
979
01:00:19,318 --> 01:00:21,284
And if you notice,
there was a sleeve
980
01:00:21,318 --> 01:00:23,284
across that cylinder
part of that gun.
981
01:00:23,318 --> 01:00:25,284
It would have been
almost impossible
982
01:00:25,318 --> 01:00:28,732
for me to grab it
and jam it at the time.
983
01:00:30,077 --> 01:00:32,525
Chief Gallagher,
he had a gun in one pocket
984
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,284
and a handkerchief in the other.
985
01:00:34,318 --> 01:00:37,077
When he pulled the
handkerchief out that meant
986
01:00:37,112 --> 01:00:39,594
that he was going
to shoot and kill Tony.
987
01:00:39,629 --> 01:00:42,387
He said three times,
he reached into his pocket
988
01:00:42,422 --> 01:00:46,284
for the handkerchief
during the press conference.
989
01:00:46,318 --> 01:00:49,043
And he said three
times he put it back.
990
01:00:49,077 --> 01:00:51,318
This is Chief Gallagher
of the Indianapolis
991
01:00:51,353 --> 01:00:53,974
Police Department and
also a damn fine man
992
01:00:54,008 --> 01:00:58,008
and this man was fair with me,
damn fair with me.
993
01:00:58,043 --> 01:01:00,250
Well, I'm gonna tell you,
this man is safe.
994
01:01:00,284 --> 01:01:02,456
The only thing I wanted
at the time was for
995
01:01:02,491 --> 01:01:04,698
this to end without
anybody getting hurt.
996
01:01:04,732 --> 01:01:07,284
Had I went for the shotgun,
made a mistake,
997
01:01:07,318 --> 01:01:10,560
Dick Hall would have been dead,
Tony Kiritsis been dead.
998
01:01:10,594 --> 01:01:12,939
Tony, sorry to interrupt,
we're going to--
999
01:01:12,974 --> 01:01:14,525
Hi, come here,
you're awful bashful.
1000
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:15,629
I'm the shy one.
1001
01:01:15,663 --> 01:01:17,181
Would you like to smile for us?
1002
01:01:17,215 --> 01:01:18,456
For you, I will.
1003
01:01:18,491 --> 01:01:20,318
I shaved before I came
over here and you never
1004
01:01:20,353 --> 01:01:22,215
even came out,
get that goddamn thing done.
1005
01:01:22,250 --> 01:01:23,870
We're going right now, Tony.
1006
01:01:23,905 --> 01:01:25,353
If you wasn't a good attorney
1007
01:01:25,387 --> 01:01:27,146
I don't know what
I'd do without you.
1008
01:01:27,181 --> 01:01:29,043
I did not,
was not aware at the time
1009
01:01:29,077 --> 01:01:31,077
that there was
negotiations in the back
1010
01:01:31,112 --> 01:01:34,594
to bring this out to
Tony that he had won.
1011
01:01:36,456 --> 01:01:38,318
Waiting on that settlement.
Waiting on damn attorneys.
1012
01:01:38,353 --> 01:01:42,525
Waiting on that five million
dollars that I just stole.
1013
01:01:43,353 --> 01:01:44,560
Pardon me?
1014
01:01:44,594 --> 01:01:45,836
Give Tony some
more room in here.
1015
01:01:45,870 --> 01:01:46,767
We ought to have
some more water.
1016
01:01:46,801 --> 01:01:47,594
I need a little and I--
1017
01:01:47,629 --> 01:01:48,870
Come here, babe.
1018
01:01:48,905 --> 01:01:49,698
Here, Dickie. I'm on the job.
1019
01:01:49,732 --> 01:01:50,560
Give it to Dick.
1020
01:01:50,594 --> 01:01:51,318
Give Dick, here Dick.
1021
01:01:51,353 --> 01:01:52,215
Got it?
1022
01:01:54,491 --> 01:01:56,181
George,
if you don't get out from
1023
01:01:56,215 --> 01:01:57,284
in front of them
goddamn cameras--
1024
01:01:57,318 --> 01:01:58,594
Oh, I'm sorry.
1025
01:01:58,629 --> 01:01:59,870
You're not going to be
in any more of my shows.
1026
01:01:59,905 --> 01:02:00,801
I'm upstaging you.
You know that?
1027
01:02:00,836 --> 01:02:02,905
I'm sorry, sorry, sorry.
1028
01:02:02,939 --> 01:02:05,870
You're doing a single,
my apologies.
1029
01:02:09,525 --> 01:02:11,181
Mark, pull my pants up.
1030
01:02:11,215 --> 01:02:14,732
What, what are you?
1031
01:02:14,767 --> 01:02:16,215
Those bastards did that.
1032
01:02:16,250 --> 01:02:17,836
If you had a little
bit of butt in there,
1033
01:02:17,870 --> 01:02:19,974
you wouldn't have to
have pulled them up.
1034
01:02:20,008 --> 01:02:22,250
That's it, I've had it.
1035
01:02:22,284 --> 01:02:24,422
I'm sorry, it was my turn.
1036
01:02:25,594 --> 01:02:28,491
It was my turn to bat,
you believe that.
1037
01:02:28,525 --> 01:02:30,905
Tony, you want to go back
and winter in until Billy gets--
1038
01:02:30,939 --> 01:02:32,112
Yeah, let's get out of here.
1039
01:02:32,146 --> 01:02:32,974
Where's it cool?
1040
01:02:33,008 --> 01:02:34,112
Where's Frank at?
1041
01:02:34,146 --> 01:02:35,284
Where's it cool?
1042
01:02:35,318 --> 01:02:37,250
I want to thank,
I want to thank the people
1043
01:02:37,284 --> 01:02:39,560
that supported me,
I want to thank the people
1044
01:02:39,594 --> 01:02:42,318
that were fair,
I'm sorry about my language
1045
01:02:42,353 --> 01:02:44,663
and I'm sorry that this
thing had to happen.
1046
01:02:44,698 --> 01:02:45,663
Tony, follow me.
1047
01:02:45,698 --> 01:02:46,491
Okay.
1048
01:02:46,525 --> 01:02:47,422
Follow John, Tone.
1049
01:02:47,456 --> 01:02:49,663
We're going with you.
1050
01:02:49,698 --> 01:02:51,698
We're talking,
we're talking, we're talking,
1051
01:02:51,732 --> 01:02:53,387
this news conference
is going along.
1052
01:02:53,422 --> 01:02:55,594
It's being broadcast
live and all of a sudden
1053
01:02:55,629 --> 01:02:58,353
the focus of the news
conference and his hostage
1054
01:02:58,387 --> 01:03:00,732
move out into this other
room and the media's
1055
01:03:00,767 --> 01:03:02,939
kind of standing there like,
what's going on,
1056
01:03:02,974 --> 01:03:04,836
what's going on, what do we do?
1057
01:03:09,422 --> 01:03:11,456
Okay, so they are out of sight.
1058
01:03:11,491 --> 01:03:14,836
They are at the
apartment complex still.
1059
01:04:01,318 --> 01:04:03,456
So then at the end it
was just the payday,
1060
01:04:03,491 --> 01:04:05,491
was the five million
dollar promissory
1061
01:04:05,525 --> 01:04:07,732
note that we were
willing to give.
1062
01:04:07,767 --> 01:04:10,974
And that was to be
done when he released
1063
01:04:11,008 --> 01:04:12,974
the hostage we
would sign the note
1064
01:04:13,008 --> 01:04:16,250
and that would be
the end of the story.
1065
01:04:55,077 --> 01:04:58,318
Okay, Paul,
I'm presently outside the building
1066
01:04:58,353 --> 01:05:01,767
where the really
amazing news conference,
1067
01:05:01,801 --> 01:05:04,008
of sorts,
took place moments ago.
1068
01:05:04,043 --> 01:05:06,698
What happened was
that that ended and Tony
1069
01:05:06,732 --> 01:05:10,491
and Dick Hall,
again still attached by the gun,
1070
01:05:10,525 --> 01:05:12,974
moved down a
hallway in that building.
1071
01:05:13,008 --> 01:05:15,698
At that point the
police ordered all
1072
01:05:15,732 --> 01:05:18,215
news personnel
out of the building.
1073
01:05:18,250 --> 01:05:21,181
It's nice and cool in here.
1074
01:05:26,767 --> 01:05:30,698
Harry,
Tony wants to talk to you.
1075
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,353
Tony, there's people out there,
1076
01:06:25,387 --> 01:06:27,870
lots of people out there.
1077
01:06:31,456 --> 01:06:33,284
Go on live, go on live.
1078
01:06:33,318 --> 01:06:36,663
Stay there,
there's nothing we can do.
1079
01:06:36,698 --> 01:06:39,525
Go on live,
go to him, go to him!
1080
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:41,422
Get him to go to him.
1081
01:06:49,836 --> 01:06:52,525
Paul, here at the scene you
may not be able to see me,
1082
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:54,077
we're not allowed to use lights.
1083
01:06:54,112 --> 01:06:56,112
A dramatic development
just a few moments ago,
1084
01:06:56,146 --> 01:06:57,560
we did hear a gunshot.
1085
01:06:57,594 --> 01:06:59,698
At this point we do not
know exactly what it means.
1086
01:06:59,732 --> 01:07:01,560
We heard a gunshot,
there is no way
1087
01:07:01,594 --> 01:07:03,698
of knowing what exactly developed,
just before--
1088
01:07:03,732 --> 01:07:05,629
Stand by.
1089
01:07:07,215 --> 01:07:10,215
Yeah, I thought he killed Hall.
1090
01:07:10,250 --> 01:07:13,250
I mean, it was,
I knew what a shotgun sounded like
1091
01:07:13,284 --> 01:07:15,663
and I knew that was a shotgun.
1092
01:07:15,698 --> 01:07:16,732
Come on.
1093
01:07:16,767 --> 01:07:18,250
Mac, pick that up.
1094
01:07:21,215 --> 01:07:22,284
Mac's got it.
1095
01:07:23,870 --> 01:07:26,870
Okay,
we're getting over to George Martz.
1096
01:07:28,663 --> 01:07:30,905
And is Hall out of danger?
1097
01:07:30,939 --> 01:07:32,629
Sure, we got him.
1098
01:07:32,663 --> 01:07:35,043
We got him, he's okay.
1099
01:07:35,077 --> 01:07:36,284
Where's Tony?
1100
01:07:36,318 --> 01:07:37,491
I have no idea.
1101
01:07:37,525 --> 01:07:38,870
I don't know,
I don't give a shit.
1102
01:07:38,905 --> 01:07:40,043
We heard one shot.
1103
01:07:40,077 --> 01:07:41,560
What happened?
1104
01:07:41,594 --> 01:07:43,353
I don't know what,
I can't explain the shot, but, but--
1105
01:07:43,387 --> 01:07:45,146
Would you go find out for us?
1106
01:07:45,181 --> 01:07:46,077
I'll find out.
1107
01:07:46,112 --> 01:07:47,353
George, louder!
1108
01:07:47,387 --> 01:07:49,215
The hostage is out, he's okay!
1109
01:07:49,250 --> 01:07:51,250
The hostage is
released and is alright.
1110
01:07:51,284 --> 01:07:54,318
There is no indication yet
as to what the gunshot was.
1111
01:07:54,353 --> 01:07:57,456
There is no indication as
to the condition of Tony,
1112
01:07:57,491 --> 01:08:01,181
but Martz says the
hostage is alright.
1113
01:08:01,215 --> 01:08:02,870
The hostage is alright.
1114
01:08:02,905 --> 01:08:04,077
We heard one shot.
1115
01:08:04,112 --> 01:08:07,284
We do not know at this
point why we heard it.
1116
01:08:07,318 --> 01:08:11,112
But the deputy prosecutor
says that the hostage is alright.
1117
01:08:11,146 --> 01:08:13,456
Okay, okay,
I've got some information.
1118
01:08:13,491 --> 01:08:15,353
Some new information apparently.
1119
01:08:15,387 --> 01:08:18,422
Tony did shoot the gun,
but only as a demonstration that,
1120
01:08:18,456 --> 01:08:22,250
indeed, it was real,
only as a demonstration.
1121
01:08:52,387 --> 01:08:53,905
Okay, there's some
1122
01:08:53,939 --> 01:08:56,353
activity down the block here.
1123
01:08:57,525 --> 01:09:00,043
We're going to see
what else we can find out.
1124
01:09:01,836 --> 01:09:02,663
Okay.
1125
01:09:10,043 --> 01:09:11,801
We're putting
him in the car now.
1126
01:09:11,836 --> 01:09:13,663
Watch your head, Tony.
1127
01:09:18,698 --> 01:09:22,215
Let's step back,
let's move back.
1128
01:09:22,250 --> 01:09:23,767
More blasts.
1129
01:09:23,801 --> 01:09:25,698
Another shot behind us.
1130
01:09:32,870 --> 01:09:35,112
If I were Mr. Hall I'd go home.
1131
01:09:35,146 --> 01:09:36,284
I don't know.
1132
01:09:36,318 --> 01:09:37,698
Is he still in the building?
1133
01:09:37,732 --> 01:09:39,146
Yeah.
1134
01:09:39,181 --> 01:09:40,387
Can you just,
can you reconstruct
1135
01:09:40,422 --> 01:09:42,284
what you know about
the time from when
1136
01:09:42,318 --> 01:09:44,284
they left us till
all was resolved?
1137
01:09:44,318 --> 01:09:47,387
They went into the command,
what was the command post,
1138
01:09:47,422 --> 01:09:51,112
they negotiated and
they released Mr. Hall.
1139
01:09:51,146 --> 01:09:52,801
He walked out in the hall and
1140
01:09:52,836 --> 01:09:55,801
we took him down
to another room.
1141
01:09:55,836 --> 01:09:58,215
So there was more
negotiation inside.
1142
01:09:58,250 --> 01:09:59,422
Do you know the nature of it?
1143
01:09:59,456 --> 01:10:00,663
Nope, sure don't.
1144
01:10:00,698 --> 01:10:02,698
Who undid the wires,
for example?
1145
01:10:02,732 --> 01:10:05,181
I don't know, I wasn't in,
I was not in the room.
1146
01:10:05,215 --> 01:10:08,560
I don't, I really,
I really don't care.
1147
01:10:08,594 --> 01:10:11,732
He's, he's, we got him,
everybody's alive, nobody got hurt.
1148
01:10:11,767 --> 01:10:15,181
Do you think this thing
was handled correctly?
1149
01:10:15,215 --> 01:10:18,284
Is the agreement any
good that you signed?
1150
01:10:18,318 --> 01:10:21,250
Immunity agreements,
are they valid in any way at all?
1151
01:10:21,284 --> 01:10:23,767
Will they stand up in any court?
1152
01:10:23,801 --> 01:10:25,629
We promised immunity.
1153
01:10:25,663 --> 01:10:28,077
I'm going to have a
statement on this at a
1154
01:10:28,112 --> 01:10:30,939
later time and I would
like to be able to collect
1155
01:10:30,974 --> 01:10:33,836
my thoughts and be
able to discuss it rationally.
1156
01:10:33,870 --> 01:10:35,525
I'm very tired at
the present time.
1157
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:36,836
I'd rather not discuss it.
1158
01:10:36,870 --> 01:10:38,456
Have you any precedent at this
1159
01:10:38,491 --> 01:10:40,732
point for this kind of thing?
1160
01:10:40,767 --> 01:10:43,767
I just would rather not
comment at this present time.
1161
01:10:43,801 --> 01:10:46,560
Is that press conference
going to be tomorrow?
1162
01:10:46,594 --> 01:10:48,905
We'll, you'll be notified.
1163
01:11:00,525 --> 01:11:03,353
And we ended up down
at Wishard in the holding
1164
01:11:03,387 --> 01:11:05,698
cell down there which
was a padded cell.
1165
01:11:05,732 --> 01:11:08,250
I mean,
you had a window about like this.
1166
01:11:08,284 --> 01:11:13,077
I was inside with Tony alone
and all of a sudden Tony,
1167
01:11:13,112 --> 01:11:16,629
he was about five,
about five, six,
1168
01:11:16,663 --> 01:11:18,594
something like that,
stocky as hell,
1169
01:11:18,629 --> 01:11:20,353
and I was about six two.
1170
01:11:20,387 --> 01:11:22,974
And he had grabbed me
around the neck like this
1171
01:11:23,008 --> 01:11:25,939
and said, Jack, he says,
I really screwed up, didn't I?
1172
01:11:25,974 --> 01:11:28,353
I thought he was going
to break my damn neck.
1173
01:11:28,387 --> 01:11:32,043
And I said, Tony, I said,
you got some problems.
1174
01:11:32,077 --> 01:11:35,560
I said, I didn't argue with
him and I didn't agree with him.
1175
01:11:35,594 --> 01:11:38,077
I just put the neuter in
there and I got back over
1176
01:11:38,112 --> 01:11:40,456
there toward the door
and I hit on that window
1177
01:11:40,491 --> 01:11:42,939
like this to get me
the hell out of there.
1178
01:11:42,974 --> 01:11:45,939
Then they finally opened
the door and I got out.
1179
01:11:45,974 --> 01:11:47,698
But, boy, that was a scary time.
1180
01:11:47,732 --> 01:11:49,801
I thought the guy was
going to break my neck,
1181
01:11:49,836 --> 01:11:51,870
because he's strong as a bull.
1182
01:11:51,905 --> 01:11:54,456
In Indianapolis Anthony
Kiritsis held a shotgun
1183
01:11:54,491 --> 01:11:57,491
at the head of a kidnapped
hostage for 60 hours
1184
01:11:57,525 --> 01:12:00,215
demanding a promise he
would not be prosecuted.
1185
01:12:00,250 --> 01:12:01,663
Well, he got the promise.
1186
01:12:01,698 --> 01:12:03,629
Today, not surprisingly,
when he let
1187
01:12:03,663 --> 01:12:05,698
the hostage go he
found the promise was
1188
01:12:05,732 --> 01:12:07,698
not worth the paper
it was written on.
1189
01:12:07,732 --> 01:12:10,318
The hostage is free
and Kiritsis is in jail.
1190
01:12:10,353 --> 01:12:12,974
Here's Mike Jackson
in Indianapolis.
1191
01:12:13,008 --> 01:12:14,663
Kiritsis staged a bizarre
1192
01:12:14,698 --> 01:12:16,836
news conference that
lasted almost an hour.
1193
01:12:16,870 --> 01:12:19,181
No one knew whether
he would fire the shotgun
1194
01:12:19,215 --> 01:12:20,974
and kill his hostage or others.
1195
01:12:21,008 --> 01:12:23,387
Hostage Richard Hall's
face was almost purple
1196
01:12:23,422 --> 01:12:27,353
because the wire around
his neck was so tight.
1197
01:12:27,387 --> 01:12:30,181
Kiritsis was taken
immediately to the county jail.
1198
01:12:30,215 --> 01:12:31,974
He is charged with seven crimes
1199
01:12:32,008 --> 01:12:34,077
including kidnapping
and armed robbery.
1200
01:12:34,112 --> 01:12:38,181
His bail is more than three
quarters of a million dollars.
1201
01:12:38,215 --> 01:12:41,491
He was arrested even though
he had been promised immunity.
1202
01:12:41,525 --> 01:12:44,594
Mike Jackson,
NBC News, Indianapolis.
1203
01:12:56,870 --> 01:13:00,456
Immunity cannot be
granted to an accused.
1204
01:13:02,491 --> 01:13:05,767
A document was typed
up and given to him
1205
01:13:06,939 --> 01:13:09,732
which would have granted
him immunity so long
1206
01:13:09,767 --> 01:13:13,629
as the prosecutor's
office honored the terms.
1207
01:13:13,663 --> 01:13:17,146
I'll say this,
there was never any intention on
1208
01:13:17,181 --> 01:13:21,318
the part of the prosecutor's
office to honor the terms.
1209
01:13:25,870 --> 01:13:28,215
That's pure and simply it.
1210
01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:35,284
He's presently in jail.
1211
01:13:35,318 --> 01:13:38,112
The total bond is
$850,000 dollars.
1212
01:13:38,146 --> 01:13:39,043
Yes, ma'am?
1213
01:13:50,353 --> 01:13:53,318
Hall was greeted by
a standing ovation,
1214
01:13:53,353 --> 01:13:55,318
by warm applause
as he bravely faced
1215
01:13:55,353 --> 01:13:58,008
the news media in the
city county building today.
1216
01:13:58,043 --> 01:13:59,560
His wife was by his side.
1217
01:13:59,594 --> 01:14:01,387
The strain of the
events of the past
1218
01:14:01,422 --> 01:14:03,422
three days evident
on both faces.
1219
01:14:03,456 --> 01:14:05,560
Hall had been
advised by his attorneys
1220
01:14:05,594 --> 01:14:07,870
to not answer questions
on the details of
1221
01:14:07,905 --> 01:14:10,836
his treatment as a hostage,
but he did talk.
1222
01:14:10,870 --> 01:14:13,801
He did have some
things he wanted to say.
1223
01:14:13,836 --> 01:14:15,284
It's been a long ordeal.
1224
01:14:15,318 --> 01:14:17,318
My family and I are
extremely grateful
1225
01:14:17,353 --> 01:14:20,870
to God for a safe
solution in this ordeal.
1226
01:14:22,043 --> 01:14:23,974
We're most
appreciative of all those
1227
01:14:24,008 --> 01:14:27,284
thoughts and prayers
that were with us
1228
01:14:27,318 --> 01:14:30,318
and we can't express
enough our gratitude.
1229
01:14:30,353 --> 01:14:32,767
And then more applause as Hall,
1230
01:14:32,801 --> 01:14:34,456
obviously a strong,
stoic individual,
1231
01:14:34,491 --> 01:14:35,732
left the news conference.
1232
01:14:35,767 --> 01:14:37,525
Many questions
remain unanswered,
1233
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:39,629
but for now Richard Hall says he
1234
01:14:39,663 --> 01:14:41,905
is content to just
close the door.
1235
01:14:41,939 --> 01:14:43,801
Close the door on the harrowing
1236
01:14:43,836 --> 01:14:46,318
events of the past three days.
1237
01:14:47,525 --> 01:14:50,146
I eventually told
Tony that I couldn't
1238
01:14:50,181 --> 01:14:52,594
represent him because
I'm going to end up being
1239
01:14:52,629 --> 01:14:55,491
a state's witness in this
thing and I can't do both.
1240
01:14:55,525 --> 01:14:58,491
I said, I'll get you a lawyer
and I'll get you a good one.
1241
01:14:58,525 --> 01:15:00,456
That's when I got
him Owen Mullin.
1242
01:15:00,491 --> 01:15:02,146
Well, they didn't last too long
1243
01:15:02,181 --> 01:15:04,008
because they didn't get along.
1244
01:15:04,043 --> 01:15:05,560
I mean, it's very difficult for
1245
01:15:05,594 --> 01:15:07,560
somebody to get along with Tony.
1246
01:15:07,594 --> 01:15:10,491
He doesn't want to take orders,
he wants to give orders.
1247
01:15:10,525 --> 01:15:12,456
And Owen, of course,
being a lawyer,
1248
01:15:12,491 --> 01:15:14,663
says you're going to
do what I tell you to do.
1249
01:15:14,698 --> 01:15:17,215
And how he got ahold of Stanton,
I don't know.
1250
01:15:17,250 --> 01:15:20,318
I happened to be
representing a man
1251
01:15:20,353 --> 01:15:22,215
named Roger
Drollinger at the time.
1252
01:15:22,250 --> 01:15:26,181
Drollinger was in
the Marion County jail
1253
01:15:26,215 --> 01:15:29,077
in a cell next to Tony Kiritsis.
1254
01:15:29,112 --> 01:15:31,698
But Drollinger and
Kiritsis got along real well
1255
01:15:31,732 --> 01:15:34,077
and Drollinger
recommended me as a lawyer.
1256
01:15:34,112 --> 01:15:36,525
So on Drollinger's
recommendation
1257
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:38,905
Kiritsis decided to hire me.
1258
01:15:42,146 --> 01:15:45,767
In a case of this magnitude
you research every
1259
01:15:45,801 --> 01:15:48,905
potential legal issue that
you can possibly argue.
1260
01:15:48,939 --> 01:15:50,732
You research the
insanity defense.
1261
01:15:50,767 --> 01:15:52,250
You research jury instructions.
1262
01:15:52,284 --> 01:15:55,250
You research every
potential legal issue you can
1263
01:15:55,284 --> 01:15:58,939
because Tony was
facing a life imprisonment.
1264
01:16:00,318 --> 01:16:02,974
Tony, of course,
didn't want this defense.
1265
01:16:03,008 --> 01:16:07,008
His defense would have been,
they had it coming.
1266
01:16:07,043 --> 01:16:09,905
So,
it's been an all-time loser of a defense.
1267
01:16:09,939 --> 01:16:12,284
In fact,
studies show that it's a very minute
1268
01:16:12,318 --> 01:16:14,836
percent of people
ever assert this defense
1269
01:16:14,870 --> 01:16:19,318
and in those cases very
few people will win it.
1270
01:16:19,353 --> 01:16:21,663
The theory of our
defense was that Tony
1271
01:16:21,698 --> 01:16:23,870
was insane at the
time of the offense.
1272
01:16:23,905 --> 01:16:27,112
If we were to investigate
Meridian Mortgage
1273
01:16:27,146 --> 01:16:29,250
and if we had been able to prove
1274
01:16:29,284 --> 01:16:31,215
that Tony's
allegations were true,
1275
01:16:31,250 --> 01:16:33,353
then it would
suggest that he wasn't
1276
01:16:33,387 --> 01:16:35,939
out of touch with reality
and he was simply
1277
01:16:35,974 --> 01:16:38,215
mad at Meridian
Mortgage and that he just
1278
01:16:38,250 --> 01:16:39,767
took the law into his own hands.
1279
01:16:39,801 --> 01:16:41,525
That's not a defense.
1280
01:16:43,008 --> 01:16:44,594
Everybody saw Tony do it.
1281
01:16:44,629 --> 01:16:48,008
Everybody saw the
horror in Dick Hall's face
1282
01:16:48,043 --> 01:16:51,836
and saw the possibility
that that trigger's
1283
01:16:51,870 --> 01:16:53,767
going to get
pulled intentionally,
1284
01:16:53,801 --> 01:16:55,974
or unintentionally,
and on live TV
1285
01:16:56,008 --> 01:16:58,112
you're going to
watch somebody die.
1286
01:16:58,146 --> 01:17:00,767
Erasing those images
or at least allowing
1287
01:17:00,801 --> 01:17:04,112
the jury to say,
I can understand the acts
1288
01:17:04,146 --> 01:17:06,284
actually occurred,
but still find
1289
01:17:06,318 --> 01:17:09,767
somebody not guilty
was a real challenge.
1290
01:17:11,836 --> 01:17:13,663
Mr. Stanton said,
"Would you like
1291
01:17:13,698 --> 01:17:17,801
"to meet Mr. Kiritsis
and talk with him?"
1292
01:17:17,836 --> 01:17:21,801
In several interviews that
lasted several hours each
1293
01:17:21,836 --> 01:17:24,043
became very knowledegable about
1294
01:17:24,077 --> 01:17:27,801
what had led up to
this incident in his life.
1295
01:17:29,181 --> 01:17:32,284
He had a very
interesting and difficult life.
1296
01:17:32,318 --> 01:17:35,250
He was the son of immigrant
parents from Greece.
1297
01:17:35,284 --> 01:17:38,077
They were very poor,
very hardworking.
1298
01:17:38,112 --> 01:17:40,353
He loved his mother dearly.
1299
01:17:41,836 --> 01:17:45,422
His father was, apparently,
quite a mean man,
1300
01:17:45,456 --> 01:17:48,698
physically violent
toward the children.
1301
01:17:50,008 --> 01:17:51,939
One of the stories
he told was that
1302
01:17:51,974 --> 01:17:55,422
at the ice cream stand
that they worked at,
1303
01:17:55,456 --> 01:17:57,594
the younger children
had to go around
1304
01:17:57,629 --> 01:17:59,698
the parking lot and
pick up the empty
1305
01:17:59,732 --> 01:18:02,008
paper cups and
wash them so that they
1306
01:18:02,043 --> 01:18:04,974
could be reused as a
way of saving money.
1307
01:18:05,008 --> 01:18:07,974
He remembers on one
occasion when they didn't
1308
01:18:08,008 --> 01:18:10,215
get all of them picked
up quickly enough
1309
01:18:10,250 --> 01:18:12,284
and a car backed
over some of them,
1310
01:18:12,318 --> 01:18:15,836
his father whipping him
out in this public space
1311
01:18:15,870 --> 01:18:18,318
in front of one of
Mr. Kiritsis's friends
1312
01:18:18,353 --> 01:18:20,250
and family and then whoever else
1313
01:18:20,284 --> 01:18:23,112
happened to be
there in that area.
1314
01:18:25,284 --> 01:18:29,698
He was brought in by two
very big men hanging onto him.
1315
01:18:29,732 --> 01:18:33,801
He was very upset that
people are so mean to him.
1316
01:18:33,836 --> 01:18:36,215
That they would arrest him,
that they would
1317
01:18:36,250 --> 01:18:38,974
put him in prison
and lock him up.
1318
01:18:39,008 --> 01:18:41,491
Why would they do that to him?
1319
01:18:43,250 --> 01:18:44,974
No, he knew what he was doing.
1320
01:18:45,008 --> 01:18:47,250
He was doing it on purpose,
this man deserves it.
1321
01:18:47,284 --> 01:18:49,284
Where the kink in
his thinking was that
1322
01:18:49,318 --> 01:18:51,939
he had been hurt and therefore,
if he was hurt,
1323
01:18:51,974 --> 01:18:55,629
he was able to go out and
do things to make it right.
1324
01:18:55,663 --> 01:18:58,008
He would have long
times where he was
1325
01:18:58,043 --> 01:19:00,387
a good solid citizen
and he would have other
1326
01:19:00,422 --> 01:19:03,767
times where he was
basically a wild man.
1327
01:19:14,594 --> 01:19:17,043
There's three things
going on in a case like this.
1328
01:19:17,077 --> 01:19:19,387
And that is first of all,
the prosecutor is trying
1329
01:19:19,422 --> 01:19:21,077
to make their case, obviously,
1330
01:19:21,112 --> 01:19:23,663
beyond a reasonable
doubt and not make mistakes
1331
01:19:23,698 --> 01:19:25,939
that are going to be
grounds for appeal if
1332
01:19:25,974 --> 01:19:27,836
the case goes up,
if the guy's found guilty.
1333
01:19:27,870 --> 01:19:29,560
The defense wants
to make mistakes,
1334
01:19:29,594 --> 01:19:32,525
they want to make a
shambles of the trial if they can,
1335
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:34,732
so there's lots of things
they can argue about.
1336
01:19:34,767 --> 01:19:37,318
And then the judge's role
is to keep very tight control
1337
01:19:37,353 --> 01:19:39,698
of the courtroom,
keep tight control of the jury
1338
01:19:39,732 --> 01:19:42,181
and not make any
mistakes that are likely
1339
01:19:42,215 --> 01:19:45,698
to be used on appeal
if he's found guilty.
1340
01:19:46,974 --> 01:19:48,732
The defense
psychiatrist said yes,
1341
01:19:48,767 --> 01:19:51,146
he was insane at the time.
1342
01:19:51,181 --> 01:19:54,215
The prosecution psychiatrist said no,
he wasn't.
1343
01:19:54,250 --> 01:19:56,767
And I think because
the psychiatric testimony
1344
01:19:56,801 --> 01:19:59,491
was fairly strong on both sides,
1345
01:19:59,525 --> 01:20:02,525
I think the jury kind
of just disregarded it.
1346
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:03,939
We got tired of them.
1347
01:20:03,974 --> 01:20:05,905
They all talked
in clinical terms.
1348
01:20:05,939 --> 01:20:09,560
Was Tony paranoid or
was he schizophrenic,
1349
01:20:09,594 --> 01:20:11,250
or maybe he wasn't?
1350
01:20:11,284 --> 01:20:14,974
So we had to try to make
sense of that and after a while,
1351
01:20:15,008 --> 01:20:19,181
in all honesty,
it got very confusing and almost pointless.
1352
01:20:22,939 --> 01:20:25,077
This was not the first time that
1353
01:20:25,112 --> 01:20:27,594
Kiritsis had done
something like this.
1354
01:20:27,629 --> 01:20:30,387
This was kind of a
reenactment of an incident
1355
01:20:30,422 --> 01:20:34,112
that he had had
with his own family.
1356
01:20:34,146 --> 01:20:35,732
Effie Kiritsis testified next.
1357
01:20:35,767 --> 01:20:37,663
Tony's older sister
had to be lifted into
1358
01:20:37,698 --> 01:20:40,112
the witness chair as she
is crippled with arthritis.
1359
01:20:40,146 --> 01:20:42,353
She had not seen her
brother for eight years.
1360
01:20:42,387 --> 01:20:44,698
At that time he broke
into her home with a gun
1361
01:20:44,732 --> 01:20:46,422
and held her for
two and a half days
1362
01:20:46,456 --> 01:20:48,250
while demanding a
financial settlement
1363
01:20:48,284 --> 01:20:50,043
for his work at the
family trailer court.
1364
01:20:50,077 --> 01:20:52,008
It was brother Tom,
however, who revealed
1365
01:20:52,043 --> 01:20:53,594
that the family
agreed to give Tony
1366
01:20:53,629 --> 01:20:55,318
$55,000 dollars,
to not send Tony
1367
01:20:55,353 --> 01:20:57,732
to a psychiatrist,
to not press charges.
1368
01:20:57,767 --> 01:20:59,801
Ironically,
the details of the agreement
1369
01:20:59,836 --> 01:21:02,181
for Effie's release were
remarkably like those
1370
01:21:02,215 --> 01:21:04,974
demanded by Kiritsis when
he held Dick Hall hostage.
1371
01:21:05,008 --> 01:21:07,594
Linda Lupear for the news,
Channel 6.
1372
01:21:07,629 --> 01:21:09,939
He put Tony on the stand,
which was surprising,
1373
01:21:09,974 --> 01:21:12,250
and I thought at that point,
well we're really
1374
01:21:12,284 --> 01:21:14,629
going to hear what
Meridian Mortgage did to him.
1375
01:21:14,663 --> 01:21:16,146
And it was the same old story.
1376
01:21:16,181 --> 01:21:18,353
Just when you thought
you were going to find out
1377
01:21:18,387 --> 01:21:20,870
what it was that they had
done that really set him off,
1378
01:21:20,905 --> 01:21:23,215
he would zing off,
which made you think that well,
1379
01:21:23,250 --> 01:21:25,387
he just couldn't pay the
mortgage and eventually
1380
01:21:25,422 --> 01:21:27,284
they were going to
foreclose on the land.
1381
01:21:27,318 --> 01:21:29,801
I mean, that's basically
where you ended up every time.
1382
01:21:29,836 --> 01:21:32,318
I mean, it happened several
times during the testimony.
1383
01:21:32,353 --> 01:21:34,422
And I thought, well, is that it?
1384
01:21:34,456 --> 01:21:37,043
They had given Tony
an extension of time
1385
01:21:37,077 --> 01:21:39,318
in which to pay his
mortgage payments
1386
01:21:39,353 --> 01:21:41,112
on the land that he was buying.
1387
01:21:41,146 --> 01:21:43,491
And they'd done this
repeatedly and then when
1388
01:21:43,525 --> 01:21:45,870
they finally didn't then he thought,
well,
1389
01:21:45,905 --> 01:21:48,043
this meant they were
trying to cheat him.
1390
01:21:48,077 --> 01:21:49,870
He thought that they
had interfered with
1391
01:21:49,905 --> 01:21:52,008
his efforts to develop
the land and hoping
1392
01:21:52,043 --> 01:21:54,387
that he would therefore
fall behind on payments
1393
01:21:54,422 --> 01:21:56,905
so that they could get it for,
the land for a low price.
1394
01:21:56,939 --> 01:22:01,112
And that's, there was just
not evidence to back that up.
1395
01:22:06,215 --> 01:22:09,698
I did to Dick Hall was a terrible thing,
a horrible thing.
1396
01:22:09,732 --> 01:22:12,801
I didn't want to do it
and I tried not to do it.
1397
01:22:12,836 --> 01:22:14,974
At that point he
burst into tears.
1398
01:22:15,008 --> 01:22:17,284
Defense attorney Niles
Stanton then led him
1399
01:22:17,318 --> 01:22:19,732
through a narration
about his early family life.
1400
01:22:19,767 --> 01:22:21,801
His voice quivering,
Kiritsis said he loved
1401
01:22:21,836 --> 01:22:23,698
his father in spite
of his strictness.
1402
01:22:23,732 --> 01:22:25,663
He began pushing
an ice cream cart
1403
01:22:25,698 --> 01:22:27,836
12 hours a day
at the age of nine.
1404
01:22:27,870 --> 01:22:29,732
At times he broke
down completely
1405
01:22:29,767 --> 01:22:31,698
and needed time
to compose himself.
1406
01:22:31,732 --> 01:22:33,250
Kiritsis told a different story
1407
01:22:33,284 --> 01:22:34,836
of the abduction
of his sister saying
1408
01:22:34,870 --> 01:22:36,801
he was being pushed
out by the family.
1409
01:22:36,836 --> 01:22:38,284
Things became very cool.
1410
01:22:38,318 --> 01:22:40,767
He was very hurt by what
Effie and his brothers did.
1411
01:22:40,801 --> 01:22:42,422
The jury stared at the defendant
1412
01:22:42,456 --> 01:22:44,629
as he told of a vow he
made over his mother's
1413
01:22:44,663 --> 01:22:47,525
casket promising to
take care of the family.
1414
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:49,939
He dropped a class
ring in the coffin.
1415
01:22:49,974 --> 01:22:51,767
He said he made
a cross on the wall
1416
01:22:51,801 --> 01:22:53,939
in his own blood the
day he broke the oath.
1417
01:22:53,974 --> 01:22:55,250
That was the day the family
1418
01:22:55,284 --> 01:22:56,836
threw him out
of the trailer park.
1419
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:58,181
And we might add, Clyde,
1420
01:22:58,215 --> 01:22:59,732
that the courtroom
was packed all day.
1421
01:22:59,767 --> 01:23:00,974
I'll bet.
1422
01:23:01,008 --> 01:23:02,353
What's it look like
for the rest of the trial?
1423
01:23:02,387 --> 01:23:04,181
Well,
it will probably go to the jury,
1424
01:23:04,215 --> 01:23:05,629
the judge says maybe
by next Thursday.
1425
01:23:05,663 --> 01:23:08,456
Okay, thanks Linda.
1426
01:23:08,491 --> 01:23:11,525
We had lots and lots of
jury instructions in this case.
1427
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,870
Basic instruction was,
was at the time of
1428
01:23:14,905 --> 01:23:17,077
the offense did he
have a mental disease
1429
01:23:17,112 --> 01:23:19,456
or defect that
prevented him from
1430
01:23:19,491 --> 01:23:22,284
understanding the
consequences of his action?
1431
01:23:22,318 --> 01:23:24,112
Even if he knew right and wrong,
1432
01:23:24,146 --> 01:23:28,594
did he still have enough
volition to be a sane person?
1433
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:31,008
With that final
instruction not guilty
1434
01:23:31,043 --> 01:23:33,905
by reason of insanity
at the time of the act.
1435
01:23:33,939 --> 01:23:36,560
Not a minute before
or not a minute after,
1436
01:23:36,594 --> 01:23:38,043
at the time of the act.
1437
01:23:38,077 --> 01:23:41,629
I thought, wow,
I'm surrounded by a bunch of adults here.
1438
01:23:41,663 --> 01:23:44,767
There ain't no way they're
going to see it different,
1439
01:23:44,801 --> 01:23:46,318
pssh, but they did.
1440
01:23:46,353 --> 01:23:48,043
We had a tough time of it.
1441
01:23:48,077 --> 01:23:49,939
And we came at
it from everybody's
1442
01:23:49,974 --> 01:23:52,663
own opinions and
experience and also,
1443
01:23:52,698 --> 01:23:55,732
in some cases,
correct and in some cases,
1444
01:23:55,767 --> 01:24:00,112
faulty remembrances of what
we heard over the last 14 days.
1445
01:24:00,146 --> 01:24:04,077
We were all so emotionally
drained and tired.
1446
01:24:06,043 --> 01:24:07,525
We knew he did it.
1447
01:24:09,181 --> 01:24:12,491
It was very evident he did it
from the footage that we saw.
1448
01:24:12,525 --> 01:24:16,525
But the problem was the
way the law was written.
1449
01:24:17,732 --> 01:24:20,146
We all went back into
the courtroom because
1450
01:24:20,181 --> 01:24:22,629
we didn't think we
could come to a verdict.
1451
01:24:22,663 --> 01:24:25,250
Judge Dugan told us that,
yes, I think
1452
01:24:25,284 --> 01:24:27,215
you can come to a verdict and he
1453
01:24:27,250 --> 01:24:30,456
sent us back in for
more deliberations.
1454
01:24:31,767 --> 01:24:34,250
I was prepared to tell
the judge we were going
1455
01:24:34,284 --> 01:24:38,250
to be a hung jury
if that's what it took.
1456
01:24:38,284 --> 01:24:40,560
All 12 of us had doubts.
1457
01:24:40,594 --> 01:24:42,353
The question is
is whether or not
1458
01:24:42,387 --> 01:24:45,215
they were reasonable doubt.
1459
01:24:45,250 --> 01:24:47,870
I don't think there
was a single juror
1460
01:24:47,905 --> 01:24:50,560
that was happy with the verdict.
1461
01:24:53,112 --> 01:24:54,629
We found out the votes.
1462
01:24:54,663 --> 01:24:56,215
The first vote was six to six.
1463
01:24:56,250 --> 01:24:58,250
The next vote we
learned was eight to four.
1464
01:24:58,284 --> 01:25:00,215
We didn't know
which way eight to four.
1465
01:25:00,250 --> 01:25:01,974
The next vote was 10 to two.
1466
01:25:02,008 --> 01:25:04,456
The next vote was 11 to
one and then it seemed
1467
01:25:04,491 --> 01:25:07,043
to have been 11 to one forever
1468
01:25:07,077 --> 01:25:09,801
and then finally
they had a verdict.
1469
01:25:09,836 --> 01:25:14,008
But neither side knew which
way the jury was leaning.
1470
01:25:33,732 --> 01:25:34,732
Be seated.
1471
01:25:39,732 --> 01:25:42,387
For the record this is CR77-44A.
1472
01:25:44,525 --> 01:25:47,870
The time is 10:04 on October 21st,
1977.
1473
01:25:49,732 --> 01:25:52,767
I'll ask the jury and I'll
ask the foreman of the jury,
1474
01:25:52,801 --> 01:25:56,387
duly elected,
do you have verdicts?
1475
01:25:56,422 --> 01:25:58,008
I do, Your Honor.
1476
01:25:58,043 --> 01:26:02,215
If you'll pass those
verdicts to the bailiff, please.
1477
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:20,422
Okay, will the defendant,
Mr. Kiritsis,
1478
01:26:20,456 --> 01:26:23,456
please rise and face the bench,
sir.
1479
01:26:25,318 --> 01:26:29,491
Foreman, the verdict is,
we the jury find the defendant
1480
01:26:30,698 --> 01:26:33,181
Anthony J. Kiritsis,
not guilty by reason of--
1481
01:26:39,387 --> 01:26:41,112
I've got to tell you one thing.
1482
01:26:41,146 --> 01:26:42,767
Just a minute, Mr. Kiritsis.
1483
01:26:42,801 --> 01:26:44,629
Just a minute, please.
1484
01:26:47,905 --> 01:26:49,767
We further find
that the defendant,
1485
01:26:49,801 --> 01:26:52,008
Anthony J. Kiritsis
committed the act charged
1486
01:26:52,043 --> 01:26:54,801
in count three
of the information
1487
01:26:56,250 --> 01:26:58,836
and that at the time the
defendant was insane and is,
1488
01:26:58,870 --> 01:27:02,077
therefore,
not guilty by reason of insanity.
1489
01:27:02,112 --> 01:27:03,560
Please be seated.
1490
01:27:03,594 --> 01:27:06,422
I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
Your Honor.
1491
01:27:12,698 --> 01:27:14,594
Does the state
wish to poll the jury?
1492
01:27:14,629 --> 01:27:16,112
No, Your Honor.
1493
01:27:16,146 --> 01:27:20,663
The court now sets at nine o'clock,
a.m.,
1494
01:27:20,698 --> 01:27:24,870
November the 9th, 1977,
as that date for a hearing
1495
01:27:26,284 --> 01:27:30,008
pursuant to statute on
the question of competency
1496
01:27:31,870 --> 01:27:35,801
as to further action by
the court in this case.
1497
01:27:39,456 --> 01:27:42,525
With that,
the court is adjourned.
1498
01:27:51,801 --> 01:27:53,387
I knew how difficult it was for
1499
01:27:53,422 --> 01:27:56,077
the prosecutor to
prove that he was sane.
1500
01:27:56,112 --> 01:27:58,801
I think both sides did
an extremely good job.
1501
01:27:58,836 --> 01:28:02,043
Based on the
testimony I was surprised
1502
01:28:02,077 --> 01:28:04,077
that the jury would think he was,
in fact,
1503
01:28:04,112 --> 01:28:06,905
insane when the
offense was committed.
1504
01:28:06,939 --> 01:28:08,801
Yeah, I was in a way because
1505
01:28:08,836 --> 01:28:11,112
that's a very difficult defense.
1506
01:28:11,146 --> 01:28:13,525
You've gotta have
overwhelming evidence that
1507
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:16,387
a guy is wacko and I
didn't think it was there.
1508
01:28:16,422 --> 01:28:18,629
I mean, he was up and down,
1509
01:28:18,663 --> 01:28:20,767
yo-yo like and
everything like that.
1510
01:28:20,801 --> 01:28:23,181
I had to think the
jury may have felt a
1511
01:28:23,215 --> 01:28:26,560
little bit sorry for Tony
on his getting screwed
1512
01:28:26,594 --> 01:28:28,629
out of that land or
something like that.
1513
01:28:28,663 --> 01:28:32,560
Something to give them
an idea to give him a break.
1514
01:28:32,594 --> 01:28:36,525
I found him to be very
honest and forthright.
1515
01:28:37,974 --> 01:28:42,353
I could identify with the
abuse he went through.
1516
01:28:42,387 --> 01:28:46,560
To this day I resent anybody
telling me I had better.
1517
01:28:50,077 --> 01:28:52,215
It wasn't nothing for
his dad to get him up
1518
01:28:52,250 --> 01:28:53,836
and tell him he
had better get out
1519
01:28:53,870 --> 01:28:55,663
and start humping
them ice creams.
1520
01:28:55,698 --> 01:28:58,146
He was thrust into a
manhood as a child
1521
01:28:58,181 --> 01:29:01,905
and I can identify with
that more than you know.
1522
01:29:01,939 --> 01:29:03,663
What did he have to gain by not
1523
01:29:03,698 --> 01:29:07,284
showing anything
less than the truth?
1524
01:29:07,318 --> 01:29:08,146
Okay?
1525
01:29:10,112 --> 01:29:13,732
You're not going to
make that stuff up.
1526
01:29:13,767 --> 01:29:17,387
When they took
the insanity defense
1527
01:29:17,422 --> 01:29:19,284
the state took the other side.
1528
01:29:19,318 --> 01:29:21,663
He was just a mad, mean man.
1529
01:29:23,284 --> 01:29:26,284
They would tell you there
wasn't nothing insane about him.
1530
01:29:26,318 --> 01:29:27,525
Nothing.
1531
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:29,491
But the minute they
found him not guilty
1532
01:29:29,525 --> 01:29:31,698
they switched and
said he's crazy,
1533
01:29:31,732 --> 01:29:34,250
he needs more tests and
he should be locked up.
1534
01:29:34,284 --> 01:29:37,870
At that point Tony refused
to take any more tests.
1535
01:29:37,905 --> 01:29:42,043
He said, you guys said there
was nothing wrong with me.
1536
01:29:42,077 --> 01:29:44,112
Now you're saying
you want all kinds of,
1537
01:29:44,146 --> 01:29:46,767
and he wasn't,
and they held him for almost 10 years
1538
01:29:46,801 --> 01:29:48,732
in contempt of
court for that reason.
1539
01:29:48,767 --> 01:29:52,456
And that tells you what
kind of guy Dugan was.
1540
01:29:52,491 --> 01:29:55,043
He's very inadequate,
in my opinion.
1541
01:29:55,077 --> 01:29:59,043
Because that could not have been the law,
in my opinion.
1542
01:29:59,077 --> 01:30:01,801
And I don't who manipulated him,
someone did, though.
1543
01:30:01,836 --> 01:30:03,939
I'll always believe that.
1544
01:30:05,181 --> 01:30:08,594
I've got my suspicions
but I can't prove them.
1545
01:30:08,629 --> 01:30:10,836
You're not in a world here where
1546
01:30:10,870 --> 01:30:14,663
you can say things
are black or white.
1547
01:30:14,698 --> 01:30:17,801
And you have to say they're
somewhere in between.
1548
01:30:17,836 --> 01:30:22,008
Certainly, Tony did not meet
the criteria for being insane.
1549
01:30:24,318 --> 01:30:27,663
On the other hand,
his behavior was insane.
1550
01:30:27,698 --> 01:30:29,905
So,
what are you going to do with that?
1551
01:30:31,353 --> 01:30:34,974
You have to work on
that and chew it a bit.
1552
01:31:36,284 --> 01:31:38,008
Let me say something.
1553
01:31:38,043 --> 01:31:40,905
We all live in the
greatest country on earth.
1554
01:31:40,939 --> 01:31:43,767
But this is the
type of thing that
1555
01:31:46,181 --> 01:31:50,077
undermines the
liberties that my father
1556
01:31:50,112 --> 01:31:52,594
and my mother came
here from Greece for.
1557
01:31:52,629 --> 01:31:54,456
And probably all
of your ancestors
1558
01:31:54,491 --> 01:31:56,008
and I'm not trying to be corny.
1559
01:31:56,043 --> 01:31:58,077
I may be a flag waver,
but I wave it a hell of
1560
01:31:58,112 --> 01:32:00,146
a lot better than John Wayne,
I'll tell you that.
1561
01:32:00,181 --> 01:32:01,698
I did not.
1562
01:32:01,732 --> 01:32:03,560
Okay.
1563
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:15,112
I lost credibility
with Kiritsis.
1564
01:32:15,146 --> 01:32:16,732
I lost credibility
in the community
1565
01:32:16,767 --> 01:32:18,008
and I don't appreciate it.
1566
01:32:18,043 --> 01:32:19,939
I didn't care for it
one way or the other
1567
01:32:19,974 --> 01:32:22,284
but I had that
credibility in this hand
1568
01:32:22,318 --> 01:32:25,043
and I had Hall's life and,
you know,
1569
01:32:25,077 --> 01:32:27,318
his wife and children,
his little girls,
1570
01:32:27,353 --> 01:32:29,491
on this hand, in my mind.
1571
01:32:29,525 --> 01:32:33,318
And I weighed the two and I,
to myself,
1572
01:32:33,353 --> 01:32:35,284
said, I felt that his life was,
1573
01:32:35,318 --> 01:32:37,181
and if I could help save it,
1574
01:32:37,215 --> 01:32:39,318
his life was more
important over here than
1575
01:32:39,353 --> 01:32:41,594
the credibility that I'd
have to work to get back.
1576
01:32:41,629 --> 01:32:43,629
This is an interesting
point you bring up
1577
01:32:43,663 --> 01:32:46,836
because these young
people here at Ball State,
1578
01:32:46,870 --> 01:32:48,905
in journalism,
in radio and television
1579
01:32:48,939 --> 01:32:51,250
are going to be faced
with it more and more
1580
01:32:51,284 --> 01:32:53,456
in the immediate years to come.
1581
01:32:53,491 --> 01:32:56,870
Terrorism,
with all the technological advances
1582
01:32:56,905 --> 01:33:00,422
that are coming,
coming down now,
1583
01:33:00,456 --> 01:33:03,353
and the sophisticated
forms of terrorism
1584
01:33:03,387 --> 01:33:05,767
that are being developed
in Europe are coming
1585
01:33:05,801 --> 01:33:09,318
across here as surely
as we're sitting here today.
1586
01:33:09,353 --> 01:33:11,284
The question now
is what are these
1587
01:33:11,318 --> 01:33:13,215
young men and women,
as journalists,
1588
01:33:13,250 --> 01:33:15,939
going to be doing when
they have a terrorist
1589
01:33:15,974 --> 01:33:18,732
on one hand who says,
"I'm going to poison
1590
01:33:18,767 --> 01:33:21,491
"the water supply
of New York City?"
1591
01:33:21,525 --> 01:33:23,318
Hey, it is very easy.
1592
01:33:23,353 --> 01:33:25,836
I'm going to blow up
all the transmission lines
1593
01:33:25,870 --> 01:33:28,422
in the state of Indiana,
the electrical power lines.
1594
01:33:28,456 --> 01:33:30,698
And that's not that far fetched.
1595
01:33:30,732 --> 01:33:33,215
Technologically,
it's available and it is possible.
1596
01:33:33,250 --> 01:33:35,974
Now,
if this young journalist knows this
1597
01:33:36,008 --> 01:33:39,112
information does he broadcast it,
does he not?
1598
01:33:39,146 --> 01:33:40,663
You know, where do we go?
1599
01:33:40,698 --> 01:33:44,974
Prior restraint,
I totally disagree with, prior restraint.
1600
01:33:45,008 --> 01:33:47,250
I don't want anybody
telling me that you can
1601
01:33:47,284 --> 01:33:50,146
or cannot broadcast
this at any given time.
1602
01:33:50,181 --> 01:33:53,594
I don't,
my First Amendment rights, I think,
1603
01:33:53,629 --> 01:33:57,836
would be jeoparidized
and violated there.
1604
01:33:57,870 --> 01:33:59,698
But we are going
to have to think
1605
01:33:59,732 --> 01:34:01,836
about restraints and I,
and here I am waffling.
1606
01:34:01,870 --> 01:34:03,870
I'm going from one side
of this fence to the other.
1607
01:34:03,905 --> 01:34:04,939
I don't know the answer.
1608
01:34:04,974 --> 01:34:06,387
I don't know that anybody does.
1609
01:34:06,422 --> 01:34:08,594
The Kiritsis thing opened
our eyes to a lot of things.
1610
01:34:08,629 --> 01:34:10,387
First of all,
we have these insta-cams,
1611
01:34:10,422 --> 01:34:12,663
mini-cams, action cams,
they're all the same thing.
1612
01:34:12,698 --> 01:34:15,112
They're portable,
instant television cameras
1613
01:34:15,146 --> 01:34:17,732
which our promotion departments
and our news departments
1614
01:34:17,767 --> 01:34:19,663
thought were great
promotional gimmicks.
1615
01:34:19,698 --> 01:34:21,146
You take these out and you give
1616
01:34:21,181 --> 01:34:23,112
the impression of
being everywhere live.
1617
01:34:23,146 --> 01:34:24,905
We didn't think through the
1618
01:34:24,939 --> 01:34:26,870
philosophical
questions involved.
1619
01:34:26,905 --> 01:34:29,077
Kiritsis finally brought
it all home to us.
1620
01:34:29,112 --> 01:34:32,284
Once you arrive at
the scene of a story
1621
01:34:32,318 --> 01:34:35,043
like a Kiritsis
hostage incident,
1622
01:34:37,043 --> 01:34:39,663
when you turn that
camera on you are
1623
01:34:39,698 --> 01:34:41,525
setting up a life
or death situation
1624
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:45,250
in living rooms
all across the city.
1625
01:34:45,284 --> 01:34:46,801
I don't think the question is,
1626
01:34:46,836 --> 01:34:49,008
and I'm a little tired of
some of these people
1627
01:34:49,043 --> 01:34:51,353
who say they are,
the self-righteous atmosphere,
1628
01:34:51,387 --> 01:34:53,043
the attitude of,
of we upheld the
1629
01:34:53,077 --> 01:34:55,112
public morality by
pulling the plug on it.
1630
01:34:55,146 --> 01:34:57,112
That's nonsense,
that's not the question.
1631
01:34:57,146 --> 01:34:59,732
The question is should we
have gone in to begin with?
1632
01:34:59,767 --> 01:35:02,043
Should we have set up
that circus atmosphere?
1633
01:35:02,077 --> 01:35:04,560
Hour by hour reports
saying this man may have
1634
01:35:04,594 --> 01:35:07,525
his head blown off in your
living room at any moment now.
1635
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:09,939
Whether we should,
in effect what we were saying,
1636
01:35:09,974 --> 01:35:12,250
we set it up for people
and then to pull the plug
1637
01:35:12,284 --> 01:35:14,870
at the moment
of truth is too late.
1638
01:35:14,905 --> 01:35:17,215
And I think the questions
that need to be asked
1639
01:35:17,250 --> 01:35:19,353
about violence and
these live cameras is
1640
01:35:19,387 --> 01:35:22,353
when do you go in and
when do you hold back?
1641
01:35:22,387 --> 01:35:25,077
When do you stay
back from the scene?
1642
01:35:25,112 --> 01:35:27,077
Because we don't,
when do you inform
1643
01:35:27,112 --> 01:35:29,008
and when do you incite,
in other words.
1644
01:35:29,043 --> 01:35:30,801
I think this is
probably the first case,
1645
01:35:30,836 --> 01:35:34,560
maybe in judicial history,
where the jury
1646
01:35:34,594 --> 01:35:37,284
was also the
eyewitness to the crime.
1647
01:35:37,318 --> 01:35:40,250
Where everyone
in the jury box had,
1648
01:35:40,284 --> 01:35:42,974
not newspaper clippings or
hearsay evidence to go by,
1649
01:35:43,008 --> 01:35:46,318
they saw it happen,
either live or in replays.
1650
01:35:46,353 --> 01:35:49,215
So when all of those
sober arguments were made
1651
01:35:49,250 --> 01:35:51,387
by a criminologist
and psychiatrist about
1652
01:35:51,422 --> 01:35:54,698
this man's mental condition,
I'm convinced that,
1653
01:35:54,732 --> 01:35:58,905
and I have no evidence other
than my own thoughts on this,
1654
01:36:00,353 --> 01:36:02,250
that going through the
minds of the jury were not
1655
01:36:02,284 --> 01:36:03,870
all of those arguments
they were hearing,
1656
01:36:03,905 --> 01:36:05,732
but what they saw that
night when John Wayne,
1657
01:36:05,767 --> 01:36:07,801
who was receiving an award,
suddenly turned into
1658
01:36:07,836 --> 01:36:09,456
Tony Kiritsis with a,
holding a gun
1659
01:36:09,491 --> 01:36:11,318
to this man's head
in their living room.
1660
01:36:11,353 --> 01:36:14,974
I mean, my first reaction
was this is crazy, he's crazy.
1661
01:36:15,008 --> 01:36:19,181
And the jury ruled he's
crazy and therefore, innocent.
1662
01:36:20,387 --> 01:36:23,353
Tony became kind of an annoyance
1663
01:36:23,387 --> 01:36:25,663
to people after
a period of time.
1664
01:36:25,698 --> 01:36:27,560
I'm not going to
mention any names,
1665
01:36:27,594 --> 01:36:29,698
but I got a call from a
television news anchor
1666
01:36:29,732 --> 01:36:31,905
who is a friend of
mine and I was working
1667
01:36:31,939 --> 01:36:35,491
at another television
station at this time and said,
1668
01:36:35,525 --> 01:36:37,112
"Are you getting
calls from Tony?"
1669
01:36:37,146 --> 01:36:38,698
And I said yes
and he said so am I.
1670
01:36:38,732 --> 01:36:40,008
He said, what are you saying?
1671
01:36:40,043 --> 01:36:41,629
I said, Tony,
I tell him, I'm sorry,
1672
01:36:41,663 --> 01:36:43,560
you know,
you had some bad breaks.
1673
01:36:43,594 --> 01:36:47,836
You know, I, there's nothing
I can do for you at this point.
1674
01:36:47,870 --> 01:36:49,077
I can't help you.
1675
01:36:49,112 --> 01:36:51,974
And sadly, and I think this is
1676
01:36:52,008 --> 01:36:54,284
a moment of
honesty in journalism,
1677
01:36:54,318 --> 01:36:57,387
is that Tony was an
old story by that time.
1678
01:36:57,422 --> 01:37:00,318
And maybe he
should not have been,
1679
01:37:00,353 --> 01:37:02,767
but we were all in a
very competitive business
1680
01:37:02,801 --> 01:37:04,456
and we just didn't
see a lot of value
1681
01:37:04,491 --> 01:37:06,284
in spending a lot
of time in pursuing
1682
01:37:06,318 --> 01:37:09,456
the Tony Kiritsis
story ad nauseum.
1683
01:37:09,491 --> 01:37:12,284
But maybe it should
have been pursued.
1684
01:37:12,318 --> 01:37:15,112
In retrospect maybe
it should have been,
1685
01:37:15,146 --> 01:37:16,939
but none of us made that call.
1686
01:37:16,974 --> 01:37:20,318
Most of us made the call to,
to just let it go,
1687
01:37:20,353 --> 01:37:22,698
until somebody sort of examines
1688
01:37:22,732 --> 01:37:26,008
the significance and the legacy.
1689
01:37:26,043 --> 01:37:27,215
So, good for you.
127350
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