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This is a Moviola.
2
00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,592
A machine for editing film,
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00:02:10,841 --> 00:02:14,575
but you know, when we say
that we're editing or cutting a film,
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00:02:14,625 --> 00:02:16,055
we aren't really saying enough.
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00:02:16,848 --> 00:02:18,682
Movies aren't just made on the set.
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00:02:18,732 --> 00:02:21,270
A lot of the actual making happens...
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00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:22,296
right here;
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00:02:22,346 --> 00:02:26,528
so a Moviola, like this is
very nearly as important as the camera.
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00:02:27,264 --> 00:02:32,258
Here films are salvaged,
saved sometimes from disaster, or...
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00:02:32,669 --> 00:02:34,625
savaged out of existence.
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00:02:35,244 --> 00:02:38,499
This is the last stop on the long road
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00:02:38,549 --> 00:02:41,348
between the dream in
a filmmaker's head and the public...
13
00:02:42,336 --> 00:02:44,005
to whom that dream is addressed.
14
00:02:45,755 --> 00:02:49,532
Carlyle said that almost everything
examined deeply enough will...
15
00:02:50,113 --> 00:02:51,659
turn out to be musical.
16
00:02:52,793 --> 00:02:56,295
Of course this is profoundly
true of motion pictures.
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00:02:57,062 --> 00:03:00,592
The pictures have movement;
the movies move.
18
00:03:00,642 --> 00:03:03,678
Then there's that movement
from one picture to another.
19
00:03:04,111 --> 00:03:06,462
There's a rhythmic structuring to that;
20
00:03:06,512 --> 00:03:09,010
this counterpoint,
harmony and dissonance.
21
00:03:09,311 --> 00:03:11,815
A film is never right,
22
00:03:12,650 --> 00:03:14,565
until it's right musically.
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00:03:15,731 --> 00:03:17,003
This Moviola,
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00:03:17,660 --> 00:03:19,124
this filmmaker's tool,
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00:03:20,193 --> 00:03:22,369
is a kind of a musical instrument.
26
00:03:22,419 --> 00:03:25,623
It's here that other film
instruments are tuned and finely...
27
00:03:26,435 --> 00:03:29,903
orchestrated, so if you find me
winding up our conversation here,
28
00:03:29,953 --> 00:03:31,089
you understand that...
29
00:03:31,595 --> 00:03:35,070
I'm speaking to you from my home.
30
00:03:36,727 --> 00:03:39,533
This is to be a conversation,
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00:03:39,583 --> 00:03:42,502
certainly not anything
so formal as a lecture,
32
00:03:43,936 --> 00:03:46,365
and what we're gonna
talk about is Othello.
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00:03:46,830 --> 00:03:48,253
Shakespeare's play...
34
00:03:49,442 --> 00:03:51,111
and the film I made of it.
35
00:03:51,672 --> 00:03:54,046
That sounds rather arrogant
doesn't it, just...
36
00:03:54,976 --> 00:03:57,371
naming the two in the same sentence.
37
00:03:58,559 --> 00:04:02,541
Truth is of course that by
any real standard of worth,
38
00:04:03,692 --> 00:04:07,222
comparison is not merely impossible,
it's absurd.
39
00:04:08,543 --> 00:04:09,590
The play is...
40
00:04:10,220 --> 00:04:14,653
something more than a masterpiece.
It stands through the centuries as...
41
00:04:15,243 --> 00:04:17,897
one of the great monuments
of western civilization.
42
00:04:18,561 --> 00:04:20,910
We pick an arbitrary figure: Twelve.
43
00:04:22,060 --> 00:04:25,494
Name twelve plays
which could be called great.
44
00:04:26,481 --> 00:04:28,738
Othello must be one of those twelve.
45
00:04:28,971 --> 00:04:31,033
And of that twelve, at least nine,
46
00:04:31,407 --> 00:04:34,992
which is another arbitrary figure,
are by Shakespeare.
47
00:04:36,391 --> 00:04:40,647
That leaves three on our list for
all the other writers who ever lived.
48
00:04:42,165 --> 00:04:44,095
Is that putting it too strongly?
49
00:04:44,145 --> 00:04:46,581
Or is it too high?
You can't go higher than that,
50
00:04:46,631 --> 00:04:49,167
and Shakespeare remains immortally...
51
00:04:50,036 --> 00:04:51,090
number one.
52
00:04:52,061 --> 00:04:55,227
Among all dramatists the first.
The greatest poet...
53
00:04:56,691 --> 00:04:59,811
in terms of sheer accomplishment,
very possibly...
54
00:05:01,507 --> 00:05:02,834
our greatest man.
55
00:05:03,326 --> 00:05:03,983
So...
56
00:05:04,708 --> 00:05:07,554
where does that leave a mere moviemaker?
57
00:05:08,281 --> 00:05:09,225
Nowhere.
58
00:05:10,457 --> 00:05:11,962
Nowhere at all...
59
00:05:12,812 --> 00:05:16,000
unless we leave out all
comparisons and consider...
60
00:05:17,330 --> 00:05:21,229
that my Othello, based upon,
adapted from and...
61
00:05:22,338 --> 00:05:25,567
inspired by William
Shakespeare's tragedy has...
62
00:05:25,902 --> 00:05:27,804
some little right to be considered
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00:05:28,488 --> 00:05:31,964
on whatever merit it may
presume to have as a movie.
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00:05:32,518 --> 00:05:34,078
As a movie, and yet...
65
00:05:34,603 --> 00:05:36,738
if merits there be...
66
00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:38,713
This is...
67
00:05:39,014 --> 00:05:40,560
not at all a conversation,
68
00:05:40,610 --> 00:05:43,365
nor am I the conversationalist
to treat with them.
69
00:05:45,551 --> 00:05:47,268
Don't imagine for a moment that I'm
70
00:05:47,318 --> 00:05:50,670
pretending to be modest,
it's just my fixed conviction
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00:05:50,972 --> 00:05:54,831
that critical opinions about one's
own work should be left to others.
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00:05:55,857 --> 00:05:58,799
Is my movie, Othello,
good or bad, flawless...
73
00:05:59,114 --> 00:06:02,097
or flawed, a masterpiece or a mess?
74
00:06:03,563 --> 00:06:07,164
It's been vigorously,
even viciously attacked,
75
00:06:07,214 --> 00:06:09,366
denigrated and dismissed and...
76
00:06:10,338 --> 00:06:12,062
also praised, sometimes...
77
00:06:13,136 --> 00:06:14,368
quite extravagantly.
78
00:06:14,418 --> 00:06:16,174
I don't know your opinion.
79
00:06:18,073 --> 00:06:19,742
And I won't tell you mine.
80
00:06:20,948 --> 00:06:24,068
I can't help the movie by
telling you it's good and...
81
00:06:24,362 --> 00:06:27,906
if I think it's bad, if I really do,
I'd better not say so.
82
00:06:28,604 --> 00:06:29,671
Why? Because...
83
00:06:30,228 --> 00:06:34,380
this movie is still being shown in the
theaters and for almost thirty years...
84
00:06:35,263 --> 00:06:36,595
People are still going to see it,
85
00:06:36,645 --> 00:06:38,752
and I admit to feeling
quite happy about that.
86
00:06:38,802 --> 00:06:41,865
Good or bad there's still some
kind of life in it, which is...
87
00:06:42,492 --> 00:06:46,285
the reason I'd be sorry and I guess
pretty foolish to do anything...
88
00:06:46,335 --> 00:06:47,339
to kill it.
89
00:06:48,180 --> 00:06:49,475
Kill that like other fact.
90
00:06:50,611 --> 00:06:53,571
But I've been asked to talk to
you about it after all this time,
91
00:06:53,621 --> 00:06:55,654
and this imposes upon me,
I guess that...
92
00:06:56,286 --> 00:06:57,381
a certain...
93
00:06:57,667 --> 00:07:00,418
guarded respect for the subject. So...
94
00:07:01,353 --> 00:07:03,720
what I'll do is to tell you...
95
00:07:04,623 --> 00:07:05,683
what I can.
96
00:07:06,038 --> 00:07:08,102
How the picture came to be made,
for instance.
97
00:07:08,152 --> 00:07:11,384
But I can tell you about that,
and how it was made.
98
00:07:11,434 --> 00:07:13,264
To put it mildly, that was...
99
00:07:14,437 --> 00:07:15,969
quite an adventure.
100
00:07:16,019 --> 00:07:17,104
It led us...
101
00:07:17,227 --> 00:07:19,928
before we were... done to many...
102
00:07:20,366 --> 00:07:23,538
strange and rather wonderful
places in the world.
103
00:07:23,588 --> 00:07:27,754
Into and out of more than one disaster.
There were moments of...
104
00:07:28,713 --> 00:07:30,772
sheer desperation and...
105
00:07:33,208 --> 00:07:34,412
there was much delight.
106
00:07:36,309 --> 00:07:37,869
Escaping then from...
107
00:07:38,512 --> 00:07:41,960
auto-criticism by
means of autobiography,
108
00:07:42,010 --> 00:07:43,030
I will...
109
00:07:43,468 --> 00:07:45,028
to quote the Moor himself,
110
00:07:45,078 --> 00:07:48,243
"A round unvarnished tale deliver."
111
00:07:50,379 --> 00:07:52,254
Now, how to begin the tale.
112
00:07:52,304 --> 00:07:54,142
Where shall we begin? You might...
113
00:07:54,721 --> 00:07:57,704
You might say it all began in Rome,
114
00:07:57,754 --> 00:08:00,752
in a Roman film studio,
with a Roman film producer...
115
00:08:01,055 --> 00:08:02,970
named Scalera, who owned the studio.
116
00:08:03,020 --> 00:08:05,707
He wasn't going to own it
for very much longer, but...
117
00:08:06,244 --> 00:08:10,074
if anybody else knew about it,
nobody bothered to tell me.
118
00:08:10,190 --> 00:08:13,923
Now those are early post-war years in
the Italian motion picture industry,
119
00:08:14,087 --> 00:08:17,959
Montatori Scalera was
still very much Mr. Big.
120
00:08:19,136 --> 00:08:22,940
He came on the set, he looked at me
and said, "Dobbiamo fare Otello."
121
00:08:24,206 --> 00:08:26,062
We've got to make Othello. I...
122
00:08:27,143 --> 00:08:28,744
I saw no reason to argue.
123
00:08:30,303 --> 00:08:31,425
As an actor...
124
00:08:31,798 --> 00:08:34,165
since my very earliest days when I first
125
00:08:34,507 --> 00:08:37,353
charted an optimistic
course I hoped would...
126
00:08:38,263 --> 00:08:41,401
take me to some of the great roles in
dramatic literature, Othello has always
127
00:08:41,451 --> 00:08:42,465
been among...
128
00:08:42,936 --> 00:08:44,065
the highest...
129
00:08:44,284 --> 00:08:45,704
of those aspirations.
130
00:08:46,875 --> 00:08:48,641
But why did Scalera
131
00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:50,926
suggest that I should do Othello?
132
00:08:52,273 --> 00:08:55,968
Well, he loved opera, he was an opera
buff and he'd made a lot of opera movies
133
00:08:56,018 --> 00:08:58,847
and made a lot of money
making those movies and...
134
00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:00,805
when he saw me...
135
00:09:01,253 --> 00:09:05,905
made-up as I was for the role of
Count Caliostro, in a gypsy make-up,
136
00:09:05,955 --> 00:09:08,315
with curly hair
and a big gold earring...
137
00:09:09,683 --> 00:09:11,216
he was thinking Verdi,
138
00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:13,084
and not Shakespeare really,
139
00:09:13,289 --> 00:09:15,211
and he naturally said, "Otello.
140
00:09:15,553 --> 00:09:17,072
Let's make Otello."
141
00:09:18,006 --> 00:09:19,850
Why did it happen in Rome?
142
00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:20,852
I...
143
00:09:21,522 --> 00:09:23,821
I didn't even want to be in Rome,
I wanted to be in Paris.
144
00:09:23,871 --> 00:09:26,003
It was the wrong place
and the wrong movie.
145
00:09:26,314 --> 00:09:28,736
I'd been planning to
do Cyrano de Bergerac.
146
00:09:28,786 --> 00:09:30,597
Now there's a romantic part for you.
147
00:09:30,647 --> 00:09:34,072
Body has a nose, He describes
himself as a man with a funny nose.
148
00:09:34,122 --> 00:09:35,298
I was going to make Cyrano,
149
00:09:35,348 --> 00:09:38,426
I'd been working with Trauner
on it for months in Paris,
150
00:09:38,672 --> 00:09:42,191
but suddenly Korda, who was
our producer, came to me and said,
151
00:09:42,241 --> 00:09:45,514
"my dear fellow I need dollars.
I want to sell it to America."
152
00:09:45,564 --> 00:09:48,839
And he did, Jose Ferrer played
it and got the Academy Award,
153
00:09:49,206 --> 00:09:51,217
and that's the end of that story.
154
00:09:51,455 --> 00:09:53,945
Cagliostro was supposedly commercial,
155
00:09:54,657 --> 00:09:57,951
and it wasn't, it was supposed
to make me rich, and it didn't.
156
00:09:58,397 --> 00:10:01,927
It was a result of a letdown, but...
157
00:10:02,173 --> 00:10:03,555
But here's an irony.
158
00:10:04,458 --> 00:10:06,459
I've been talking quite a bit...
159
00:10:07,416 --> 00:10:08,894
too much perhaps,
160
00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:11,015
about myself as an actor.
161
00:10:12,166 --> 00:10:15,573
It's because as you've seen,
it was primarily as an actor
162
00:10:15,958 --> 00:10:20,583
rather than as a filmmaker that I came
to do Othello in the first place.
163
00:10:22,294 --> 00:10:24,283
But, if that movie is still being seen
164
00:10:24,333 --> 00:10:27,836
and if it is indeed still worth
talking about at all, it's...
165
00:10:29,412 --> 00:10:32,901
It's not, I must admit,
primarily because of what...
166
00:10:33,872 --> 00:10:36,075
I contributed to it as an actor.
167
00:10:37,757 --> 00:10:40,344
I was just reading a book,
168
00:10:40,991 --> 00:10:43,239
on the subject of my Othello,
169
00:10:43,289 --> 00:10:46,676
in preparing for this conversation
with you this afternoon and...
170
00:10:47,014 --> 00:10:51,447
it quoted Eric Bentley, who said that,
"I don't act, I'm just photographed."
171
00:10:53,169 --> 00:10:55,495
Those are the kinds of things
you never forget.
172
00:10:56,034 --> 00:10:59,802
So maybe I was just being photographed
in Othello. After all that,
173
00:10:59,852 --> 00:11:02,442
act to thinking and after all that
174
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,346
nonsensical actor's ambition.
175
00:11:05,396 --> 00:11:11,021
Which means it's high time for a word
or two about Othello as a film.
176
00:11:11,857 --> 00:11:13,927
I won't venture into
the territory of the critics,
177
00:11:13,977 --> 00:11:15,866
I promised I wasn't going to, but...
178
00:11:16,757 --> 00:11:20,971
staying safely on my own side of
the fence, what I can offer is a...
179
00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:26,405
hint or two of what I was thinking of in
terms of cinematic style and substance,
180
00:11:26,455 --> 00:11:31,431
or less pompously,
what kind of film it was...
181
00:11:31,648 --> 00:11:36,643
that I set out to make.
What was thematic, what was planned...
182
00:11:38,149 --> 00:11:40,106
and what was accidental.
183
00:11:43,213 --> 00:11:44,171
In...
184
00:11:45,293 --> 00:11:47,346
Olivier's Othello,
185
00:11:48,306 --> 00:11:52,301
which was a cinematic record
of his stage production,
186
00:11:52,466 --> 00:11:53,936
"its core was the
187
00:11:53,986 --> 00:11:59,336
shocking spectacle of a man reverting
to savagery, eaten up by jealousy...
188
00:12:02,814 --> 00:12:05,223
until he murders the woman he loves.
189
00:12:06,584 --> 00:12:09,635
My film, by contrast,
190
00:12:10,370 --> 00:12:14,085
tries to depict
the whole world in collapse.
191
00:12:14,791 --> 00:12:17,062
A world that is a metaphor...
192
00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:21,181
not just for Othello's mind,
but for an epic,
193
00:12:21,897 --> 00:12:24,032
pre-modern age."
194
00:12:24,822 --> 00:12:26,095
And here, I'm...
195
00:12:26,738 --> 00:12:29,926
or misquoting...
196
00:12:31,433 --> 00:12:35,622
to... not very good effect,
197
00:12:36,128 --> 00:12:39,590
the critic, Jack J.
Jorgens who wrote a book on...
198
00:12:40,632 --> 00:12:43,779
Shakespeare on Film.
I'm very grateful to him,
199
00:12:44,232 --> 00:12:47,050
for what he said. I'm going to leave
out the good things, and the bad ones.
200
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,718
There're also some other quotes
I'll refer too, because it does sum up
201
00:12:52,882 --> 00:12:54,839
the intention behind the film.
202
00:12:54,936 --> 00:13:01,449
"The visual style of the film mirrors
the marriage at the center of the play
203
00:13:01,499 --> 00:13:04,885
which is not that of
Othello and Desdemona,
204
00:13:05,323 --> 00:13:09,838
but the perverse marriage
of Othello and Iago.
205
00:13:11,388 --> 00:13:16,834
Part of the cinematic language is
born of Othello's romantic and,
206
00:13:16,884 --> 00:13:21,474
here we come to that word,
his romantic and his heroic nature,
207
00:13:21,926 --> 00:13:25,155
which we embody,
208
00:13:25,416 --> 00:13:30,041
I attempted too, and here it
says that I did, by vast spaces,
209
00:13:30,091 --> 00:13:35,353
monumental buildings, the sky,
sea and rocks. The brute fortress.
210
00:13:35,984 --> 00:13:39,035
And these walls,
these vaults and corridors
211
00:13:39,085 --> 00:13:43,812
echo and repeat and reflect
and multiply, like so many mirrors,
212
00:13:44,428 --> 00:13:48,567
the eloquence of Shakespeare's
tragedy," at least that's the intention.
213
00:13:48,835 --> 00:13:52,447
"The grandeur
and simplicity are the Moor's.
214
00:13:53,531 --> 00:13:57,458
The dizzying camera movements,
the tortured compositions,
215
00:13:57,508 --> 00:14:01,031
the grotesque shadows
and insane distortions,
216
00:14:01,852 --> 00:14:07,012
they're of Iago,
for he is the agent of chaos.
217
00:14:07,892 --> 00:14:12,081
In Shakespeare's verbal terms,
Iago's masterpiece is to reduce
218
00:14:12,131 --> 00:14:17,760
Othello's lyricism to bursts of
confused logic, shattered syntax,
219
00:14:17,810 --> 00:14:20,411
obsessive repetitions,
and unconscious puns."
220
00:14:20,461 --> 00:14:25,298
"Lie with her? Lie on her, we say lie
on her when they belie or lie on her!
221
00:14:25,348 --> 00:14:27,485
Zounds, that's fulsome."
I can't quote it exactly right,
222
00:14:27,535 --> 00:14:33,098
but it's a total disintegration and the
attempt of our camera was to create...
223
00:14:33,895 --> 00:14:38,697
that sense of vertigo,
a feeling of tottering instability
224
00:14:39,123 --> 00:14:41,830
culminating of course in
Othello's epileptic seizure,
225
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:47,103
that murder of Roderigo,
the Othello's dizzying final fall.
226
00:14:47,868 --> 00:14:52,508
And in Venice, Iago's attempt
to sow discord are frustrated.
227
00:14:52,558 --> 00:14:55,053
He is but a shadow on the canal.
228
00:14:55,849 --> 00:15:00,406
or a lurking whisperer,
a threat, a possibility.
229
00:15:02,418 --> 00:15:04,950
The civilized order in Venice
230
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,933
is embodied in rich harmonious
architecture, placid canals,
231
00:15:08,983 --> 00:15:14,133
and in the symmetrical altar at
which Othello and Desdemona are married.
232
00:15:15,735 --> 00:15:19,422
In Cyprus,
at the frontier of the civilized world,
233
00:15:19,472 --> 00:15:21,018
the restraints of Venice are lifted.
234
00:15:21,068 --> 00:15:25,260
Art, luxury, and institutions are taken
away. And the longer we are in Cyprus,
235
00:15:25,646 --> 00:15:29,602
the more the involuted
Iago style triumphs over
236
00:15:29,652 --> 00:15:32,622
the heroic and lyrical
Othello style in the film.
237
00:15:32,954 --> 00:15:37,004
Venetian Christianity is
overpowered by paganism.
238
00:15:37,054 --> 00:15:40,058
Christian images appear
but they're put to perverse use.
239
00:15:40,374 --> 00:15:45,054
Othello's killing of desdemona is a dark
ritual recalling the wedding in Venice,
240
00:15:45,104 --> 00:15:46,059
but now...
241
00:15:47,491 --> 00:15:49,940
he puts out the candles at the altar.
242
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,441
The sounds in Cyprus - wind, shouts,
echoing footsteps, slamming doors...
243
00:15:58,865 --> 00:16:04,012
they become surreally loud. Moving
shadows distort the human figure...
244
00:16:04,189 --> 00:16:07,487
characters are separated by
tremendous distances, yet there's...
245
00:16:08,706 --> 00:16:12,154
an increasing feeling of confinement.
Ceilings bear down,
246
00:16:12,204 --> 00:16:15,561
walls become overpowering,
the world seems to be closing in."
247
00:16:17,014 --> 00:16:23,240
"In the play, one of Iago's
favorite images is that of the net,
248
00:16:23,290 --> 00:16:28,359
the snare, the web, making him
a fisherman, a hunter, a spider.
249
00:16:29,797 --> 00:16:35,448
`With as little a web as this,
will I ensnare as great a fly
250
00:16:35,498 --> 00:16:37,721
as Cassio,' he says.
251
00:16:38,942 --> 00:16:42,887
And our camera holds
that image before the camera's eyes
252
00:16:42,937 --> 00:16:45,325
and plays variations on it. We see it
253
00:16:45,375 --> 00:16:48,850
through the grate which Desdemona
passes to escape her father,
254
00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:50,840
the net that holds her hair in Cyprus,
255
00:16:50,890 --> 00:16:55,255
the ships rigging, the rack of spears in
the fortress, and the windows and doors
256
00:16:55,612 --> 00:16:57,856
of Othello's bedroom. In the end...
257
00:16:58,109 --> 00:17:00,764
Iago is caught in his own mesh;
258
00:17:02,018 --> 00:17:07,505
always hovering above him is the iron
cage where the sun will scorch him...
259
00:17:08,738 --> 00:17:11,721
and the gulls will peck at his flesh."
260
00:17:14,555 --> 00:17:20,400
Again, my thanks to Jack J.
Jorgens and to Andre Bazin
261
00:17:20,578 --> 00:17:24,437
whom I quoted in the midst of all that,
or misquoted again.
262
00:17:25,943 --> 00:17:30,390
But now having laid all that heavy
stuff, here I think I'd better explain
263
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:36,508
how circumstance itself had a lot to
do with the determination of our style.
264
00:17:36,975 --> 00:17:40,012
I should explain
that as originally projected,
265
00:17:41,244 --> 00:17:44,270
we were going to shoot most of
the movie in the south of France.
266
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,038
We were going to work out of
the old Victorine studios in Nice.
267
00:17:47,088 --> 00:17:51,920
This was the choice of the art director,
my dear friend Alexander Trauner.
268
00:17:51,970 --> 00:17:55,536
I know only a few true
artists who've emerged from...
269
00:17:56,978 --> 00:17:58,935
or worked in that profession.
270
00:17:58,985 --> 00:18:03,881
Men like Georges Wakhevitch,
Cameron Menzies, Vincent Korda,
271
00:18:03,931 --> 00:18:06,757
and Trauner is at
the very least their peer.
272
00:18:07,661 --> 00:18:10,568
Well, we'd just finished working
together for several long months
273
00:18:10,618 --> 00:18:14,454
preparing that Cyrano de
Bergerac for Alexander Korda,
274
00:18:14,504 --> 00:18:16,721
which you remember was never made.
275
00:18:17,215 --> 00:18:20,600
And we were working at
various museums in Paris,
276
00:18:20,650 --> 00:18:23,222
especially in the fascinating Carnavalet
277
00:18:24,264 --> 00:18:27,699
and... Paris was Trauner's city.
278
00:18:27,749 --> 00:18:31,501
Once you've turned your back on Budapest
in the good old days, I guess...
279
00:18:31,630 --> 00:18:33,183
there wasn't any choice.
280
00:18:33,233 --> 00:18:36,623
Anyway like many another Hungarian,
Trauner was in love with France.
281
00:18:36,673 --> 00:18:40,017
I really do think that's
why we were there. Why not?
282
00:18:41,126 --> 00:18:44,511
Anyway so I found myself
rehearsing a cast of English actors
283
00:18:44,561 --> 00:18:46,251
in the Bois de Boulogne.
284
00:18:46,712 --> 00:18:51,637
That's why we were going to build
the island of Cyprus on the Cote d'Azur.
285
00:18:51,913 --> 00:18:54,184
Why shouldn't we, after all Cyprus,
286
00:18:54,376 --> 00:18:59,207
Cyprus as Trauner painted it was
a grimly handsome fortress of a place,
287
00:18:59,257 --> 00:19:03,574
starkly posed between
Veneto and Byzantine,
288
00:19:03,624 --> 00:19:07,748
And for our movie much more
right than anything real
289
00:19:07,798 --> 00:19:10,525
which might still be
standing in this century.
290
00:19:10,575 --> 00:19:13,127
I say he painted it, because...
291
00:19:14,442 --> 00:19:15,372
that's what he did.
292
00:19:15,422 --> 00:19:18,626
None of the usual architectural
renderings. No mere color sketches.
293
00:19:18,676 --> 00:19:22,478
Trauner, Trauner painted,
he made pictures.
294
00:19:23,312 --> 00:19:24,898
Picasso, who's not
295
00:19:25,152 --> 00:19:29,005
frequently an enthusiast for
the work of lesser mortals,
296
00:19:29,055 --> 00:19:31,905
spoke very highly of those paintings.
I heard him.
297
00:19:32,482 --> 00:19:37,161
I was very happy and pleased about
shooting in the south of France
298
00:19:37,211 --> 00:19:41,760
and this was not to have been only
for the Cypriot part of the story,
299
00:19:41,810 --> 00:19:44,348
but for Venice too, and you'll see why.
300
00:19:44,512 --> 00:19:49,041
If for three-fourths of
our film we were to inhabit
301
00:19:49,728 --> 00:19:52,876
an invented world rather
than a series of real locations,
302
00:19:52,926 --> 00:19:58,664
than our version of reality would
have been merely mocked by those
303
00:19:58,714 --> 00:20:02,264
famous and familiar
old stones of Venice.
304
00:20:02,314 --> 00:20:03,649
There could be no
305
00:20:03,699 --> 00:20:08,121
stylistic integrity unless Venice too,
would be a Venice by Trauner.
306
00:20:08,171 --> 00:20:11,901
A city totally undeveloped
by the tourist industry.
307
00:20:12,083 --> 00:20:16,909
So what happened to all that? The answer
is Montatori Scalera is what happened,
308
00:20:16,959 --> 00:20:18,607
or rather what didn't.
309
00:20:19,045 --> 00:20:22,343
Remember him, saying "Biama fare Otello"
310
00:20:22,393 --> 00:20:24,688
Well, the arrangement
for financing Othello
311
00:20:24,738 --> 00:20:29,139
as he explained
Italo-Francese co-produciona
312
00:20:29,261 --> 00:20:31,988
that's co-production
between Italy and France,
313
00:20:32,038 --> 00:20:35,407
but even as the first
nail was to be driven
314
00:20:35,457 --> 00:20:39,438
in the construction of
Trauner's Venice a la Nicoise,
315
00:20:39,878 --> 00:20:44,092
word was rushed to us that the French
part of Scalera's construction
316
00:20:44,142 --> 00:20:48,127
had somehow collapsed.
There was no more co to the produciona.
317
00:20:48,177 --> 00:20:51,950
We were now Italian, 100%.
318
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,877
We would be several other things too,
before all this was over.
319
00:20:56,823 --> 00:21:01,220
Time and chance and many,
many other vicissitude
320
00:21:01,270 --> 00:21:05,423
would take us over half of Italy,
to England for the mixing of the sound,
321
00:21:05,473 --> 00:21:09,716
to Africa, especially to Africa,
and specifically to Morocco.
322
00:21:10,209 --> 00:21:12,677
Now Othello's story has nothing
to do with his own native land,
323
00:21:12,727 --> 00:21:14,757
but our story was
very much involved in it.
324
00:21:14,807 --> 00:21:17,589
We were all over Morocco,
and in a minute I'll tell you why.
325
00:21:18,709 --> 00:21:22,006
Just here I'd like to mention
how it came to pass that
326
00:21:22,198 --> 00:21:25,605
we entered the lists at
the Cannes film festival
327
00:21:26,742 --> 00:21:28,425
under a Moorish flag...
328
00:21:29,824 --> 00:21:34,134
appropriately enough I'd say for
a movie on the Moor of Venice.
329
00:21:34,184 --> 00:21:38,204
But this, like so much else
was not a clever plan of mine,
330
00:21:38,254 --> 00:21:41,011
but a mere whim of fortune.
331
00:21:42,264 --> 00:21:46,204
We started off, by losing the French
part of our official nationality,
332
00:21:46,254 --> 00:21:49,632
at the end we had no nationality at all.
333
00:21:50,915 --> 00:21:53,283
Othello was a movie without a country.
334
00:21:53,333 --> 00:21:56,430
Which meant of course that there was
no legal way to export or import it
335
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,087
from anywhere to anywhere.
336
00:21:58,186 --> 00:22:01,207
At the festival,
it meant that pile of film cans
337
00:22:01,257 --> 00:22:03,889
that I'd come lugging into
town with had no status,
338
00:22:03,939 --> 00:22:07,995
And thus no chance of joining
the festival, much less of winning it.
339
00:22:08,285 --> 00:22:12,828
Morocco then was a flag of convenience,
like Liberia for a ship owner.
340
00:22:13,457 --> 00:22:18,379
I guess it's the first film, Othello,
certainly the last entry to the Cannes
341
00:22:18,429 --> 00:22:23,046
that had no national delegation.
There was just me and those film cans.
342
00:22:23,531 --> 00:22:25,365
And we did well anyway.
343
00:22:26,147 --> 00:22:30,307
And here is how I found out
that we'd won the grand prize,
344
00:22:30,936 --> 00:22:35,106
a little sooner than one is supposed,
I mean, found out sooner.
345
00:22:35,156 --> 00:22:40,818
Because officially that sort of news
is broken the way it is with Oscars,
346
00:22:40,868 --> 00:22:43,322
only when the winner is publicly named.
347
00:22:43,854 --> 00:22:46,819
But several hours before the big event,
when I was up in my room
348
00:22:46,869 --> 00:22:48,026
in the Cannes hotel
349
00:22:48,076 --> 00:22:52,692
sweating it out, waiting alone,
there came to me somewhat breathlessly
350
00:22:52,742 --> 00:22:56,592
the big boss of the festival
himself and he looked distracted.
351
00:22:56,642 --> 00:23:00,270
He wasn't there to give out
any information, but to get it.
352
00:23:01,104 --> 00:23:05,085
"I don't know who else to
turn to," he said, "My God!"
353
00:23:05,824 --> 00:23:10,463
"Can you tell me what is
the Moorish national anthem?"
354
00:23:12,366 --> 00:23:16,405
The winner, you see, gets his anthem
played for him when he takes his bow.
355
00:23:16,455 --> 00:23:19,935
That's how I learned
that Othello was the winner.
356
00:23:21,346 --> 00:23:24,179
I didn't know Morocco's anthem
any more than anyone else,
357
00:23:24,229 --> 00:23:27,728
so the band played
something vaguely oriental
358
00:23:27,778 --> 00:23:29,657
from one of the French operettas.
359
00:23:29,746 --> 00:23:32,557
The audience stood solemnly to attention
360
00:23:33,008 --> 00:23:35,765
and with the international
propriety that's observed,
361
00:23:35,815 --> 00:23:38,857
festival officials
could breathe once more.
362
00:23:40,175 --> 00:23:40,983
Well...
363
00:23:42,269 --> 00:23:45,334
That's an anecdote, but not, I think, of
364
00:23:46,299 --> 00:23:50,691
not of a degression because the deal
was straight, the sort of contrary which
365
00:23:51,457 --> 00:23:55,299
changed, not just the lives of
those who assumed made the picture,
366
00:23:55,349 --> 00:23:56,813
but changed the style,
367
00:23:57,237 --> 00:23:59,344
character and the picture itself.
368
00:24:00,998 --> 00:24:05,000
Maybe that has something to do
with what we were praised for,
369
00:24:05,109 --> 00:24:07,874
in other words, mere chance,
losing as we did,
370
00:24:08,044 --> 00:24:11,838
more than one nationality and forced
as we were to adapt ourselves
371
00:24:11,888 --> 00:24:15,697
to a whole series of sudden
alterations and violent retreats,
372
00:24:15,747 --> 00:24:20,338
all sober planning had to be scuttled
and the making of the film...
373
00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:23,471
whenever there was
money enough to continue
374
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,018
was pure improvisation.
375
00:24:26,109 --> 00:24:29,347
Trauner's beautiful paintings had to
be abandoned right at the beginning,
376
00:24:29,397 --> 00:24:33,655
by the end he made me a couple of
walls and three pieces of furniture.
377
00:24:33,705 --> 00:24:37,817
We were never able to afford to build
anything, so nothing was designed,
378
00:24:37,867 --> 00:24:40,158
everything had to be found,
379
00:24:40,445 --> 00:24:42,489
hence all that globe-trotting.
380
00:24:42,882 --> 00:24:46,267
Iago steps from the portico
of a church in Torcello,
381
00:24:46,317 --> 00:24:48,680
an island in the Venetian lagoon,
382
00:24:48,730 --> 00:24:52,250
into a Portuguese cistern
off the coast of Africa.
383
00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:55,696
He's crossed the world
and moved between two continents
384
00:24:55,746 --> 00:24:58,004
in the middle of a single spoken phrase.
385
00:24:58,417 --> 00:25:00,380
In Othello that happens all the time.
386
00:25:00,430 --> 00:25:03,207
A Tuscan stairway
and a Moorish battlement
387
00:25:03,257 --> 00:25:05,169
are both parts of, what in the film,
388
00:25:05,219 --> 00:25:06,236
is a single room.
389
00:25:06,727 --> 00:25:12,145
Roderigo kicks Cassio in Mazagan
and gets punched back in Orvieto,
390
00:25:12,252 --> 00:25:13,815
a thousand miles away.
391
00:25:13,865 --> 00:25:15,355
And that jigsaw,
392
00:25:15,405 --> 00:25:20,599
pieces were separated not just by
plane trips, but by breaks in time.
393
00:25:20,649 --> 00:25:23,253
Nothing was in continuity.
I had no script girl.
394
00:25:23,303 --> 00:25:27,024
There was no way for the jigsaw picture
to be put together, except in my mind.
395
00:25:27,074 --> 00:25:30,737
Over a span, sometimes, of months,
I had to hold each detail in my memory.
396
00:25:30,787 --> 00:25:34,360
Not just from sequence to sequence,
but from cut to cut.
397
00:25:34,583 --> 00:25:36,065
And I had no cutter!
398
00:25:36,238 --> 00:25:38,250
I had a whole series of cameramen,
399
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:41,252
because of the delays while
I went searching for money, or
400
00:25:41,302 --> 00:25:42,957
took on jobs to earn it.
401
00:25:43,007 --> 00:25:45,406
The cameramen themselves found work,
so I'd be picking up,
402
00:25:45,456 --> 00:25:48,924
in the middle of a scene,
even a sentence, with a new cameraman,
403
00:25:48,974 --> 00:25:51,785
who'd seen nothing of what
we'd done before. Well,
404
00:25:52,581 --> 00:25:55,143
of course all that was bound to
405
00:25:55,864 --> 00:26:00,079
to affect the shape and form and
stylistic substance of the film, itself.
406
00:26:01,504 --> 00:26:03,712
half a year of careful
planning had to be thrown away
407
00:26:03,762 --> 00:26:06,800
and a whole new conception built up,
virtually over night.
408
00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:09,146
I was already in rehearsal of
the actors when the news reached us.
409
00:26:09,196 --> 00:26:12,632
You see, working together hard
over all those months, we designed
410
00:26:12,682 --> 00:26:14,413
a physical production in such a way
411
00:26:14,463 --> 00:26:17,240
that the entire picture would've been
photographed in a relatively small
412
00:26:17,290 --> 00:26:18,552
number of camera set-ups.
413
00:26:18,602 --> 00:26:19,618
A whole scene,
414
00:26:19,668 --> 00:26:22,911
sometimes several scenes would've
been played without a single cut.
415
00:26:22,961 --> 00:26:24,674
But that method of shooting,
416
00:26:24,724 --> 00:26:27,847
absolutely requires the full
resources of a movie studio.
417
00:26:27,897 --> 00:26:32,806
You need sets that break invisibly
apart, to allow for camera movement.
418
00:26:32,856 --> 00:26:36,119
You need... well, why go into it all?
419
00:26:36,461 --> 00:26:39,640
Enough to say that everything
that sort of filming calls for
420
00:26:39,690 --> 00:26:44,811
belongs to the discipline
and technology of the sound studio.
421
00:26:45,824 --> 00:26:48,998
But don't think I'm speaking
against real locations.
422
00:26:49,739 --> 00:26:53,213
No, stone... is better than cardboard.
423
00:26:53,816 --> 00:26:57,813
And our new real locations were
just fine, as far as they went.
424
00:27:01,546 --> 00:27:04,050
Let me tell you about the Turkish baths.
425
00:27:04,874 --> 00:27:08,780
I don't need to be told that there's
no Turkish bath in Shakespeare.
426
00:27:08,830 --> 00:27:11,229
But there is in Micheal
MacLiammoir's fascinating book
427
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:15,925
on the subject of our making the movie,
which is called, Put Money in Thy Purse.
428
00:27:16,316 --> 00:27:21,244
A quotation from the play and very apt
indeed it is and very funny the book is.
429
00:27:22,147 --> 00:27:26,485
Tells a lot of our troubles, and it
tells for one thing how it happened that
430
00:27:26,635 --> 00:27:29,056
we found ourselves at the beginning...
431
00:27:30,534 --> 00:27:32,425
of shooting, that is,
432
00:27:32,475 --> 00:27:40,321
in the fascinating city of Mogador on
the coast of Africa, Atlantic coast.
433
00:27:41,335 --> 00:27:45,686
Why were we there? We were there
because we had to have real locations
434
00:27:46,154 --> 00:27:49,908
and the best one we could find for
Cyprus was, naturally not Cyprus,
435
00:27:49,958 --> 00:27:53,533
movies being what they were,
it was Mogador, way down there,
436
00:27:53,667 --> 00:27:57,761
with the marvelous long battlements,
on which a lot of
437
00:27:58,390 --> 00:28:00,620
important material was photographed.
438
00:28:00,670 --> 00:28:02,908
But when we got to Mogador
439
00:28:03,295 --> 00:28:06,605
with our large Italian crew,
it was an enormous one,
440
00:28:07,178 --> 00:28:12,433
under the distinguished Anchisi Brizzi,
one of the greatest of Italian cameramen
441
00:28:12,899 --> 00:28:18,865
and heaven knows how many people.
There must be 35 or 36 other men.
442
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:25,831
Our full complement of actors, there
we were in Mogador, arrived by plane,
443
00:28:26,819 --> 00:28:30,848
checked into our modest lodgings,
and they were indeed very modest,
444
00:28:32,088 --> 00:28:36,960
because that's all there was in those
days, in that town, and started to wait.
445
00:28:38,179 --> 00:28:41,134
We waited for our costumes,
and they didn't come.
446
00:28:42,203 --> 00:28:44,684
Why didn't they come?
They didn't come because
447
00:28:44,734 --> 00:28:48,087
as it turned out,
Montatori Scalera was broke!
448
00:28:49,594 --> 00:28:53,271
Mr. Big of the Italian movie
industry had gone bankrupt
449
00:28:53,321 --> 00:28:57,672
while we were in a plane on
our way from Paris to Mogador.
450
00:28:58,779 --> 00:29:00,220
We found that out after a while,
451
00:29:00,270 --> 00:29:05,784
and we had no costumes. We had a lot
of actors, we had an enormous crew and
452
00:29:05,834 --> 00:29:09,796
obviously the thing to do was
somehow to make the movie.
453
00:29:11,207 --> 00:29:13,150
Well, I had a little money,
454
00:29:13,693 --> 00:29:16,387
So I could keep us going for
a week or two, and in the meantime
455
00:29:16,437 --> 00:29:20,514
some people scuttled around
Europe looking for ways to sell
456
00:29:20,564 --> 00:29:23,673
portions of the movie to Cyprus or...
457
00:29:24,455 --> 00:29:29,135
or Venice, or more likely
Japan or Turkey or something,
458
00:29:29,185 --> 00:29:30,922
and get a few thousand dollars advanced.
459
00:29:30,972 --> 00:29:34,071
While that kind of frantic
operation was going on,
460
00:29:35,223 --> 00:29:38,776
hoping to get more money, hoping to
be able to put money in our purse,
461
00:29:38,826 --> 00:29:40,632
and to be able to continue the movie.
462
00:29:40,682 --> 00:29:42,902
While we were sitting there in Mogador,
463
00:29:42,952 --> 00:29:47,033
the idea came to us,
that maybe we could make our costumes,
464
00:29:47,083 --> 00:29:49,051
which had never been made in Rome,
or if they had,
465
00:29:49,101 --> 00:29:50,995
they were being held by the Sheriff.
466
00:29:51,045 --> 00:29:54,603
But we could make our costumes by
using the local Jewish tailors,
467
00:29:54,653 --> 00:29:55,773
of which there were several.
468
00:29:55,823 --> 00:29:58,457
There was a big Jewish
quarter in Mogador,
469
00:29:58,507 --> 00:30:01,672
and they lived, incidentally,
very happily with the Arabs
470
00:30:01,722 --> 00:30:04,070
in those happy by-gone days.
471
00:30:04,876 --> 00:30:07,330
So the Jewish tailors were hired
472
00:30:07,380 --> 00:30:11,246
then pictures of Carpaccio gentlemen
and ladies were shown to them,
473
00:30:11,296 --> 00:30:14,633
and pretty soon the costumes
slowly began to be made,
474
00:30:14,683 --> 00:30:18,455
but they wouldn't be ready for ten days.
And what could we shoot?
475
00:30:19,780 --> 00:30:20,710
Well...
476
00:30:21,217 --> 00:30:24,274
there was the big scene
of the murder of Roderigo,
477
00:30:25,706 --> 00:30:32,630
And what can you shoot in
a costume movie without costume?
478
00:30:33,056 --> 00:30:36,000
There's only one place
you could possibly be,
479
00:30:36,232 --> 00:30:37,696
that is with a lot of people.
480
00:30:37,746 --> 00:30:40,663
If there's just two people,
there's an obvious solution.
481
00:30:40,713 --> 00:30:42,410
But when there's a crowd of people,
482
00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:45,914
there's only one possible place
where people could be nude,
483
00:30:46,553 --> 00:30:51,069
and that's a Turkish bath.
So we invented the Turkish bath.
484
00:30:55,916 --> 00:30:56,941
No reason why not.
485
00:30:56,991 --> 00:31:00,378
There were Turkish baths then,
rather more than there are now.
486
00:31:00,428 --> 00:31:04,106
And all we had to do was put towels
around the heads of our characters
487
00:31:04,156 --> 00:31:06,585
and photograph them from the waist up.
488
00:31:06,726 --> 00:31:10,152
We borrowed a lot of incense
from the local cathedral,
489
00:31:10,755 --> 00:31:13,683
filled up the Turkish bath with steam,
490
00:31:14,053 --> 00:31:17,931
and the Turkish bath itself wasn't
a Turkish bath, it was a fish market.
491
00:31:18,857 --> 00:31:27,350
So to the sound of puffing incense
and to the smell of decaying fish,
492
00:31:28,424 --> 00:31:29,788
we made that,
493
00:31:30,711 --> 00:31:33,366
overture,
runs more than a reel and a half
494
00:31:33,416 --> 00:31:40,273
that very involved and adventurous
sequence of the murder of Roderigo.
495
00:31:44,191 --> 00:31:48,723
After that the costumes began to get
ready and we had a big Army of people
496
00:31:49,078 --> 00:31:50,678
gathered all in armor.
497
00:31:50,728 --> 00:31:53,090
And you can't see because of
the way it's photographed,
498
00:31:53,140 --> 00:31:56,520
but all the armor is
made out of sardine cans.
499
00:31:57,250 --> 00:32:02,190
Hammered out and hung around the necks,
believe it or not.
500
00:32:03,778 --> 00:32:06,419
The banners were homemade, too.
Everything was homemade.
501
00:32:06,469 --> 00:32:09,552
Anyway, we got going,
but after a little while,
502
00:32:10,745 --> 00:32:15,760
the little money we had saved and were
able to raise ran out and we had to stop
503
00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:20,791
and then run to another part of the
world and make some more. So it went.
504
00:32:22,174 --> 00:32:25,477
And the history of it all,
as I say is very divertingly,
505
00:32:25,527 --> 00:32:30,520
to be found in Micheal MacLiammoir's
book, he's Iago in the movie.
506
00:32:30,570 --> 00:32:36,142
And his book has been reprinted,
and I commend it to you.
507
00:32:37,765 --> 00:32:38,627
Now...
508
00:32:40,159 --> 00:32:43,525
I have some footage here,
not from Othello, but about it.
509
00:32:43,704 --> 00:32:47,130
A few excerpts from a luncheon party,
a reunion really,
510
00:32:47,180 --> 00:32:49,766
between three old friends.
511
00:32:50,684 --> 00:32:54,420
Micheal MacLiammoir on the left,
and Hilton Edwards next to him.
512
00:32:55,695 --> 00:32:58,333
Edwards played Brabantio,
513
00:32:59,168 --> 00:33:03,520
in the film that's Desdemona's Father.
MacLiammoir, of course was our Iago.
514
00:33:04,742 --> 00:33:08,601
Some time has passed since then.
A quarter of a century.
515
00:33:09,410 --> 00:33:12,557
More we've been friends
a lot longer than that.
516
00:33:13,022 --> 00:33:15,307
We've heard the chimes at midnight.
517
00:33:15,357 --> 00:33:17,873
I should explain
that Edwards and MacLiammoir
518
00:33:17,923 --> 00:33:23,574
are together the founders and directors
of the famous Gate Theater in Dublin.
519
00:33:23,624 --> 00:33:26,978
If you love the theater, then you know
all about the Gate. If not, there's not
520
00:33:27,028 --> 00:33:29,460
much I can say about it,
so I'll just begin,
521
00:33:29,510 --> 00:33:32,526
because there's too much to say,
and I wouldn't know where to stop.
522
00:33:32,576 --> 00:33:35,229
Let me just say, that these
two men together, have written,
523
00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:39,301
and as I speak these words,
are still writing, theater history.
524
00:33:40,028 --> 00:33:44,452
Then, having dismissed their immense
achievement with a single phrase,
525
00:33:44,502 --> 00:33:48,048
I'm going to take a bit longer
on the subject of myself.
526
00:33:49,034 --> 00:33:54,280
The subject of this program,
being as it is, my own film of Othello,
527
00:33:54,330 --> 00:33:56,966
there's no way I can think of to avoid
528
00:33:57,149 --> 00:34:00,500
these lapses into autobiography.
529
00:34:00,874 --> 00:34:04,383
I'm obliged to tell you
that the Gate Theater's
530
00:34:04,794 --> 00:34:06,790
where I started my professional life.
531
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,451
I was just a boy, and Hilton
Edwards was still a very young man,
532
00:34:09,501 --> 00:34:11,064
but he was already...
533
00:34:11,967 --> 00:34:12,958
a master.
534
00:34:13,958 --> 00:34:18,596
Since then as an actor in theater, radio
and films, I've worked for what must be
535
00:34:18,646 --> 00:34:23,188
hundreds of directors. Some were good,
some middling good, many of course were
536
00:34:23,238 --> 00:34:28,335
mediocre, if not downright bad
and a few, two or three perhaps,
537
00:34:29,451 --> 00:34:31,011
could be called great.
538
00:34:31,855 --> 00:34:33,547
Of these, Hilton Edwards
539
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,999
was easily the first,
and certainly was the best of teachers.
540
00:34:38,922 --> 00:34:41,821
God only knows, that asking him
to play Brabantio in the picture
541
00:34:41,871 --> 00:34:45,001
was a feeble enough
indication of my gratitude.
542
00:34:45,051 --> 00:34:47,364
Hilton was also a distinguished actor,
and Brabantio,
543
00:34:47,414 --> 00:34:50,230
God only knows,
is an undistinguished part.
544
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:51,291
The truth is
545
00:34:51,341 --> 00:34:53,602
that he came along with
Micheal to keep us all company,
546
00:34:53,652 --> 00:34:55,478
and help out with the crowd scenes.
547
00:34:55,528 --> 00:34:58,215
He kept a sharp director's
eye on just about everything,
548
00:34:58,265 --> 00:35:02,096
and after the day's work was over,
we'd hash it all out together,
549
00:35:02,554 --> 00:35:04,894
burning the night away with talk.
550
00:35:06,518 --> 00:35:09,932
Here 25 years later,
it's a bit more of the same.
551
00:35:11,089 --> 00:35:16,302
Some 46 years ago,
when I first joined his theater,
552
00:35:17,208 --> 00:35:20,480
Micheal MacLiammoir was
playing his first Hamlet.
553
00:35:21,192 --> 00:35:24,184
By general consensus one of
the finest in living memory,
554
00:35:24,234 --> 00:35:27,648
surely the best I've ever seen.
He's played it often since,
555
00:35:27,698 --> 00:35:31,150
I once produced him in America,
and he's played Iago since
556
00:35:31,647 --> 00:35:34,914
since he did it in my film and played
it very differently. He's also played
557
00:35:34,964 --> 00:35:37,808
Othello,
and that often and differently, and with
558
00:35:37,858 --> 00:35:40,454
Hilton Edwards as his
Iago and as director.
559
00:35:40,504 --> 00:35:41,885
I mention these things...
560
00:35:42,789 --> 00:35:46,885
so you will appreciate how
well our two luncheon guests
561
00:35:47,939 --> 00:35:49,881
are equipped for this discussion.
562
00:35:50,413 --> 00:35:54,003
I also believe that in
every Shakespeare play,
563
00:35:54,053 --> 00:35:56,899
there was ones over other theme,
so it's simpler one.
564
00:35:56,949 --> 00:35:59,737
And I kept the feeling that in Othello,
565
00:35:59,787 --> 00:36:03,221
it was the question of the black man,
and the white woman.
566
00:36:03,799 --> 00:36:08,205
But although we know
that the Moors were really Arabs...
567
00:36:08,384 --> 00:36:10,642
Yes, but they were Blackamoors.
568
00:36:16,089 --> 00:36:16,751
To my mind,
569
00:36:16,801 --> 00:36:20,263
it was a black man in Shakespeare's
mind, and the white woman...
570
00:36:22,222 --> 00:36:23,070
But...
571
00:36:23,741 --> 00:36:26,901
Does Shakespeare give us
the ordinary jealous husband?
572
00:36:26,951 --> 00:36:30,118
No, he gives us
an extraordinary outsider.
573
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:33,176
In other words, he gives us a foreigner,
574
00:36:33,226 --> 00:36:37,851
a glamorous and strange savage,
however he's played.
575
00:36:38,085 --> 00:36:39,959
And there are thousand ways of playing.
576
00:36:40,009 --> 00:36:44,803
- You were too young, and I was too old.
- Oh no. You weren't too old.
577
00:36:45,873 --> 00:36:48,409
You weren't old at all.
You weren't 28 years old,
578
00:36:48,459 --> 00:36:51,045
but Shakespeare says Iago is.
579
00:36:52,401 --> 00:36:54,565
That doesn't matter at all. Othello...
580
00:36:55,180 --> 00:37:00,380
The age of Othello, I'll admit that's...
that's a fault of the film.
581
00:37:00,430 --> 00:37:04,871
It's a fault of my performance. I should
have been older when I made the film.
582
00:37:05,433 --> 00:37:07,778
'cause I would have known more
about the part, and I should have
583
00:37:07,828 --> 00:37:10,373
seemed older,
I should have played it older,
584
00:37:10,423 --> 00:37:14,151
I think it's true that Othello's
in general, should play Othello
585
00:37:15,370 --> 00:37:19,439
as older than they usually do,
because age is,
586
00:37:19,489 --> 00:37:22,574
first of all, it's indicated
in the text, and secondly,
587
00:37:22,624 --> 00:37:26,729
it distances... Othello and Desdemona,
588
00:37:26,779 --> 00:37:30,208
and anything that does that - age, race
589
00:37:30,258 --> 00:37:34,999
or culture - any of those things
are very important to the film.
590
00:37:35,654 --> 00:37:37,282
But Iago...
591
00:37:38,459 --> 00:37:43,646
if I'd let the fact that you weren't
precisely Shakespeare's age for the role
592
00:37:43,696 --> 00:37:45,562
be a consideration, I...
593
00:37:46,796 --> 00:37:50,818
ridiculous, I would have denied
myself an extraordinary performance.
594
00:37:51,222 --> 00:37:53,187
But, no, that...
595
00:37:53,830 --> 00:37:56,143
That isn't flattery, it's the truth.
596
00:37:56,745 --> 00:38:00,206
But we come to Iago's character,
597
00:38:00,892 --> 00:38:01,727
And...
598
00:38:02,616 --> 00:38:05,312
and the whole question
of what Coledridge called
599
00:38:05,362 --> 00:38:09,941
`the motiveless malignancy of Iago'.
600
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,776
We played him, in my head had
that idea of the impotence.
601
00:38:15,826 --> 00:38:21,446
It was really not so much a key for the
audience as a clue for our performance.
602
00:38:21,496 --> 00:38:24,708
A way to justify a certain
reading of the role.
603
00:38:25,024 --> 00:38:27,624
My idea was that he was impotent.
604
00:38:28,145 --> 00:38:31,593
There's nothing in the script
to contradict your theory...
605
00:38:31,758 --> 00:38:35,973
Therefore we're free to do it. That's
the great thing about Shakespeare.
606
00:38:36,023 --> 00:38:37,575
And it's a darn good motive.
607
00:38:37,916 --> 00:38:41,927
I don't know but I have a theory
in myself, that Iago was evil,
608
00:38:41,977 --> 00:38:46,332
as I think we won't,
any of us can argue about that,
609
00:38:46,382 --> 00:38:51,001
but evil like art in [?]
period was for its own sake.
610
00:38:52,056 --> 00:38:56,545
But there was evil as we see,
when we see a cat catching a mouse.
611
00:38:57,681 --> 00:39:01,061
Or a cat playing with
a rabbit or something.
612
00:39:01,111 --> 00:39:03,951
What looks evil to us,
but it's nothing to them.
613
00:39:04,001 --> 00:39:05,492
It's quite natural.
614
00:39:06,155 --> 00:39:08,180
And that's what's so terrifying.
615
00:39:09,384 --> 00:39:11,341
In other words, you are saying
616
00:39:11,391 --> 00:39:14,460
that it is possible to have
an unmotivated villain.
617
00:39:14,941 --> 00:39:19,306
We don't need Dr. Freud at all. There is
such a thing as a natural born villain.
618
00:39:19,356 --> 00:39:20,865
The true love of evil.
619
00:39:20,915 --> 00:39:23,920
Yes. He has a natural pleasure of evil,
a pleasure in it.
620
00:39:23,970 --> 00:39:25,693
And all the efforts of the theorists,
621
00:39:25,743 --> 00:39:28,078
all the head doctors
who've written the books
622
00:39:28,128 --> 00:39:31,521
and all the directors like myself
who've tried to find reasons
623
00:39:31,571 --> 00:39:33,277
are probably wasting their times
624
00:39:34,863 --> 00:39:37,234
I'm quite happy with that
625
00:39:37,284 --> 00:39:41,702
I think that although
there's the question that...
626
00:39:41,752 --> 00:39:44,940
Don't be polite to us,
come right after where you're going.
627
00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:47,710
There's feeling that there's
a motiveless feeling of evil
628
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,583
but I've got a kind of feeling
that there's nothing without a motive.
629
00:39:51,633 --> 00:39:55,106
In spite of what the scholars may say,
I have a great fate in Shakespeare,
630
00:39:55,156 --> 00:39:58,460
having, as you say,
your great instinct in acting
631
00:39:58,510 --> 00:40:01,655
is that it's even greater
for to learn classically,
632
00:40:01,705 --> 00:40:04,896
I think that Shakespeare built a much
more direct person not a simpler person
633
00:40:04,946 --> 00:40:07,851
that we knew already on
these unconscious mind,
634
00:40:07,901 --> 00:40:11,300
and I think the theme of jealousy
was supposed to throw this argument.
635
00:40:11,350 --> 00:40:15,275
We have Othello being
made jealous of Cassio.
636
00:40:15,928 --> 00:40:21,193
Now who is he made jealous by? He's
being made jealous, by a jealous man.
637
00:40:21,243 --> 00:40:26,615
We have Iago who is jealous of Othello,
being in a superior position to him,
638
00:40:26,665 --> 00:40:29,859
and being a black man,
whereas he's a white Venetian.
639
00:40:29,987 --> 00:40:33,653
He's also jealous of Cassio.
There's no question about that.
640
00:40:34,845 --> 00:40:37,149
Cassio is given the superior position,
641
00:40:42,201 --> 00:40:50,345
and in Cyprus he sees to it that Cassio
is stripped of his... Lieutenancy.
642
00:40:50,545 --> 00:40:55,067
To me the great thing is jealousy,
jealousy, jealousy.
643
00:40:55,117 --> 00:40:58,076
How does that apply to Brabantio,
the part you played.
644
00:40:58,126 --> 00:41:01,997
I think Brabantio is
jealous of anybody who
645
00:41:02,047 --> 00:41:04,268
should be loved by his
daughter more than he.
646
00:41:16,452 --> 00:41:21,887
I get the impression of a whole
community which is poisoned by a
647
00:41:21,937 --> 00:41:24,990
a neck sting or a bee sting of jealousy,
648
00:41:26,749 --> 00:41:29,431
in varying degrees, to everyone of them.
649
00:41:29,481 --> 00:41:32,816
This is why I would say,
as you originally suggested,
650
00:41:34,652 --> 00:41:38,012
the main theme of Othello is jealousy,
651
00:41:38,252 --> 00:41:42,380
which motivates all the action,
throughout the play.
652
00:41:42,430 --> 00:41:45,728
Iago is the mystery of that play,
but you know they say,
653
00:41:45,778 --> 00:41:48,805
many people I know who've
read Shakespeare say,
654
00:41:50,736 --> 00:41:54,118
and seen those Shakespeare
and sometimes acted in the Shakespeare,
655
00:41:54,168 --> 00:41:57,325
"there's no such person
as Iago," I have met him.
656
00:41:58,346 --> 00:42:00,177
three times in my life...
657
00:42:01,192 --> 00:42:04,585
- I have met him.,, - Your
lucky if you've only met him twice.
658
00:42:07,533 --> 00:42:12,529
One real life Iago is enough in any one
life, because we've all met several.
659
00:42:12,579 --> 00:42:15,013
I guess we're all agreed that
660
00:42:16,927 --> 00:42:19,353
this noble play, this noble...
661
00:42:20,053 --> 00:42:21,790
tragedy is...
662
00:42:22,898 --> 00:42:25,248
essentially concerned with the most...
663
00:42:26,193 --> 00:42:27,931
ignoble of all passions.
664
00:42:29,059 --> 00:42:30,622
Isn't that what jealousy is?
665
00:42:30,672 --> 00:42:34,284
The most humiliating,
the most agonizing and the most piteous
666
00:42:35,237 --> 00:42:36,893
I think it's self-pity,
667
00:42:38,316 --> 00:42:40,229
That isn't a passion, is it?
668
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,652
it's a disease.
It's a result of a passion, yeah.
669
00:42:46,028 --> 00:42:49,168
It's also more terrible
now by being after passion.
670
00:42:50,565 --> 00:42:56,436
Do you really think
that in this permissive age
671
00:42:56,486 --> 00:43:01,327
we're going to do away with jealousy?
I don't think so.
672
00:43:01,972 --> 00:43:05,682
But why do we laugh at jealousy?
673
00:43:06,344 --> 00:43:09,586
- Do we? I don't.
- No, I don't either, but people do.
674
00:43:09,968 --> 00:43:12,301
Ah, but who are people? The public.
675
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,782
Those are harsh words, sir.
676
00:43:16,426 --> 00:43:17,966
Thank God for them.
677
00:43:18,176 --> 00:43:19,365
Thank God for fun.
678
00:43:19,415 --> 00:43:22,494
We don't think as they do,
or we wouldn't be up on the stage,
679
00:43:22,544 --> 00:43:24,510
painting our faces pretending
we were somebody else.
680
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,778
The hardhead we are not, the hardhead
with it would be all assertive.
681
00:43:27,828 --> 00:43:31,611
the longing to be somebody else,
that drives us up on the stage.
682
00:43:31,661 --> 00:43:34,093
- Of course, it's that.
- Or it's a cockerel with the dragging
683
00:43:34,143 --> 00:43:37,077
plumes that everybody else has
been dying to avenge himself upon
684
00:43:37,127 --> 00:43:39,092
it seems the plumes dragged in the mud
685
00:43:39,142 --> 00:43:41,066
had all come kicked
down on him like that
686
00:43:41,116 --> 00:43:43,575
That's a part of it,
nothing with jealousy,
687
00:43:43,625 --> 00:43:45,610
there, but for the grace of God, go I.
688
00:43:45,660 --> 00:43:49,995
- You don't laugh at jealousy? - Oh no,
I don't even laugh at seasickness.
689
00:43:50,138 --> 00:43:53,236
I would draw jealousy is
the seasickness of passion.
690
00:43:53,286 --> 00:43:56,347
Not just like this biter to admit,
691
00:43:57,290 --> 00:44:00,591
the feeling of jealousy
being not a comic
692
00:44:01,097 --> 00:44:03,467
reaction, in my mind, but a tragic one
693
00:44:05,012 --> 00:44:07,921
When I think of women being jealous,
I'm so curious,
694
00:44:07,971 --> 00:44:10,506
it less moved. I'm ashamed of this.
695
00:44:10,711 --> 00:44:16,961
And it's never been treated as a tragic
subject in dramatic literature.
696
00:44:17,279 --> 00:44:18,360
I don't think so.
697
00:44:18,410 --> 00:44:23,117
I would say the reason for that, is that
all dramatic literature we know about,
698
00:44:23,822 --> 00:44:28,165
has been written under patriarchal
male dominated societies,
699
00:44:28,781 --> 00:44:34,834
for males, in which the final decision
in all matters belongs to the male.
700
00:44:36,379 --> 00:44:38,981
What can be the problem of a woman?
701
00:44:39,211 --> 00:44:42,043
If she is jealous or not,
since she's owned.
702
00:44:42,514 --> 00:44:46,433
Therefore, I should be sympathetic
with the public attitude
703
00:44:46,483 --> 00:44:48,429
of laughing at the trouble.
704
00:44:49,032 --> 00:44:54,171
Because the public is partly female,
and the public sees the essential comedy
705
00:44:54,221 --> 00:44:55,678
in the situation...
706
00:44:56,197 --> 00:44:56,919
of...
707
00:44:56,969 --> 00:44:58,246
of jealousy.
708
00:44:58,385 --> 00:45:00,157
Because of other females?
709
00:45:00,207 --> 00:45:04,878
Yes, because women when they're jealous,
and we just asked one now between takes
710
00:45:04,928 --> 00:45:06,503
and she said,
711
00:45:06,553 --> 00:45:10,358
"yes, I would be jealous, but I would
translate it immediately into hate."
712
00:45:11,234 --> 00:45:13,781
Othello is a perfect male type,
713
00:45:14,209 --> 00:45:18,204
kills Desdemona adoring her.
Now isn't that male?
714
00:45:18,729 --> 00:45:23,434
Isn't that enormously masculine,
to murder this girl, adoring her.
715
00:45:23,681 --> 00:45:25,404
No woman would do that.
716
00:45:26,062 --> 00:45:31,120
She would forgive the man,
or forget his crime, or kill him,
717
00:45:31,617 --> 00:45:34,143
but she would never kill him loving him.
718
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:39,705
the hypocrisy, the poetry, and the
absurdity of the male condition.
719
00:45:39,755 --> 00:45:43,992
The man kills where he loves,
the woman only kills what she hates.
720
00:45:44,531 --> 00:45:48,574
Remember this is,
it seems off the beat, maybe it is.
721
00:45:51,225 --> 00:45:55,503
Jean Cocteau said, "whereas
the blind man is a tragic figure,
722
00:45:56,027 --> 00:45:59,005
on the stage,
the deaf man is a comic one."
723
00:45:59,304 --> 00:46:00,469
You know that
724
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:02,196
Oedipus, tragic,
725
00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:04,974
- How wonderful!
- What? What? What? is funny
726
00:46:05,024 --> 00:46:06,868
- And there's no difference.
- But
727
00:46:06,918 --> 00:46:09,144
But you meet a blind man,
and meet a deaf man,
728
00:46:09,194 --> 00:46:11,923
and the deaf man is much
more tragic in real life.
729
00:46:11,973 --> 00:46:13,228
Of course he is.
730
00:46:13,323 --> 00:46:17,525
He's cut away entirely, he can see
everybody, and he can't communicate.
731
00:46:22,353 --> 00:46:26,308
It proves the point very well.
It shows that the point of absurdity,
732
00:46:26,415 --> 00:46:28,892
which is the difference
between comedy and tragedy,
733
00:46:28,942 --> 00:46:32,899
and the question of jealousy, between
the woman and the man's attitude,
734
00:46:33,027 --> 00:46:35,772
is in itself,
without any logic, whatever.
735
00:46:36,396 --> 00:46:39,544
As long as the woman
is any form of slave,
736
00:46:39,594 --> 00:46:42,345
her role in drama is always
going to be very limited.
737
00:46:42,395 --> 00:46:45,742
I'm not speaking about whether
she should have it or not.
738
00:46:47,074 --> 00:46:49,092
Yet all the best parts,
739
00:46:49,684 --> 00:46:56,474
in plays about lovers,
with lovers, it is the woman part.
740
00:46:56,524 --> 00:47:00,984
Why? Because there is nothing more
fascinating to play that of a slave,
741
00:47:01,459 --> 00:47:03,955
and get more sympathy from the audience,
742
00:47:13,503 --> 00:47:17,895
because the man is responsible for
the pleasure in physical lovemaking.
743
00:47:18,813 --> 00:47:19,889
She is not,
744
00:47:20,945 --> 00:47:22,382
he's responsible.
745
00:47:23,482 --> 00:47:27,655
His failure is the tragedy,
comic and otherwise,
746
00:47:29,331 --> 00:47:32,163
there's nothing funny
about a woman's feeling.
747
00:47:33,266 --> 00:47:35,977
Speaking of Othello's own view,
748
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,826
about what made him
jealous of Desdemona.
749
00:47:43,655 --> 00:47:45,803
But he was poisoned by Iago,
750
00:47:45,970 --> 00:47:48,446
He must've been poisoned more than Iago,
751
00:47:49,938 --> 00:47:53,769
but he had an overwhelming passion for
the beauty and purity of this girl.
752
00:47:53,819 --> 00:47:56,644
inseparable from his mind.
753
00:47:56,694 --> 00:48:00,139
And he denies that he's going
to be made jealous by these
754
00:48:00,189 --> 00:48:04,370
little drops of minor poison of Iago,
dropping in to him.
755
00:48:04,639 --> 00:48:08,489
And he says "Tis not to make me jealous,
to say my wife is fair, feeds well,
756
00:48:08,539 --> 00:48:12,651
loves company," "sings,
plays, and dances well.
757
00:48:15,022 --> 00:48:17,991
Where virtue is,
these are more virtuous."
758
00:48:18,516 --> 00:48:22,436
And then he gets his nightmare
again that she's Cassio in her arms.
759
00:48:23,225 --> 00:48:27,609
Haven't you put your finger on the whole
thing? We're dealing with a puritan.
760
00:48:28,837 --> 00:48:33,928
Over and over again,
Othello speaks of her virtue.
761
00:48:35,371 --> 00:48:39,144
The fact that she's fair,
or the rest of it is secondary.
762
00:48:39,194 --> 00:48:43,399
It's her virtue. That's very much
a puritan preoccupation, isn't it?
763
00:48:44,004 --> 00:48:45,923
And Shakespeare understood
that preoccupation
764
00:48:45,973 --> 00:48:48,739
he was anything but a puritan,
but he understood them,
765
00:48:48,789 --> 00:48:51,770
after all they're the people
who closed his theater eventually.
766
00:48:51,820 --> 00:48:55,089
I don't mean to say that Othello was
one of those fellows in a funny hat.
767
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:56,581
But the
768
00:48:57,279 --> 00:49:02,560
The puritan idea, the puritan strain
runs through the English character
769
00:49:03,192 --> 00:49:07,040
from the early days,
long before the puritans ascendancy and
770
00:49:07,969 --> 00:49:09,463
That kind of...
771
00:49:10,612 --> 00:49:13,297
Englishness is in the Moor's character.
772
00:49:14,216 --> 00:49:15,967
That preoccupation with...
773
00:49:16,891 --> 00:49:17,753
purity,
774
00:49:18,604 --> 00:49:20,109
as an abstract idea.
775
00:49:20,159 --> 00:49:25,007
Another thing he can't give her, is what
the 19th century theater always forgot.
776
00:49:25,461 --> 00:49:29,899
In her, Desdemona, who is one of
the most interesting characters to me
777
00:49:29,949 --> 00:49:32,316
in the whole wonderful, terrible play,
778
00:49:33,182 --> 00:49:37,016
is that she is not the little pious,
obedient drip
779
00:49:37,328 --> 00:49:40,441
as she is conceived of in
the 19th century particularly.
780
00:49:40,491 --> 00:49:44,543
She is anything but. A Venetian girl,
who would walk out with a negro,
781
00:49:44,593 --> 00:49:45,528
and marry him.
782
00:49:46,637 --> 00:49:51,809
And certainly Desdemona is no cringing
blonde. She's not a born loser,
783
00:49:52,301 --> 00:49:55,428
and if she dies a loser,
it's no fault of hers. But
784
00:49:56,850 --> 00:49:58,463
Just a little quibble here,
785
00:49:58,513 --> 00:50:01,087
we've been returning
constantly to the idea that
786
00:50:01,137 --> 00:50:04,807
jealousy is the centric theme of the
play, but isn't there another nuance?
787
00:50:04,857 --> 00:50:08,672
perhaps something else entirely,
close to, but different.
788
00:50:10,315 --> 00:50:13,727
What about envy? Don't you think
there's perhaps easy distinction?
789
00:50:13,777 --> 00:50:15,760
But to me there's a great distinction.
790
00:50:15,810 --> 00:50:21,265
And that what Iago feels for
Othello is envy of his position.
791
00:50:23,313 --> 00:50:25,990
And Othello was tortured by jealousy.
792
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,337
So envy is what?
Something you wish you could have,
793
00:50:30,683 --> 00:50:33,720
and jealousy is something
you fear you are losing.
794
00:50:33,770 --> 00:50:36,982
Almost I think I heard you
express it once, and saying that
795
00:50:37,032 --> 00:50:44,222
envy was a desire of having,
and jealousy was the pain of losing.
796
00:50:44,451 --> 00:50:48,656
Or a fear of losing,
you could be jealous for no reason.
797
00:50:48,706 --> 00:50:50,711
And yet the curious thing is,
798
00:50:51,794 --> 00:50:56,254
Maybe one loses something
the minute one is jealous.
799
00:50:56,304 --> 00:51:01,115
even though there's no infidelity.
Isn't that perhaps the moral?
800
00:51:01,165 --> 00:51:03,554
And I'm certain [?] used
a terrible word of Othello.
801
00:51:03,604 --> 00:51:07,493
There could be, there's an ignoble
feeling about being envious,
802
00:51:07,543 --> 00:51:13,562
but there's not the same ? heart-rending
humility as there is in jealousy.
803
00:51:13,612 --> 00:51:15,983
- That awful feeling.
- Demeaning...
804
00:51:18,010 --> 00:51:20,061
It lowers one to where [?]
805
00:51:26,352 --> 00:51:30,945
- That's a feeling of self-unworthiness,
a feeling of inadequacy. - A failure.
806
00:51:30,995 --> 00:51:33,820
The pleasure of the pain.
807
00:51:34,644 --> 00:51:37,775
The pleasure of putting
the tongue upon the painful tooth,
808
00:51:38,221 --> 00:51:39,777
you know, that hurts one.
809
00:51:43,082 --> 00:51:45,518
And doesn't Othello
express itself with that?
810
00:51:45,568 --> 00:51:46,769
With self-pity.
811
00:51:47,710 --> 00:51:50,443
I wish I could agree with
you that there's some
812
00:51:50,493 --> 00:51:54,799
evil faint, perverse pleasure
in the feeling of jealousy.
813
00:51:55,201 --> 00:51:56,201
I've known it.
814
00:51:56,251 --> 00:51:58,826
I didn't say that is,
because I don't, I have never...
815
00:51:58,876 --> 00:52:00,716
You're wondering was there.
816
00:52:00,766 --> 00:52:02,374
But isn't worse that that is?
817
00:52:02,424 --> 00:52:05,153
Isn't there a kind of
self-love involved in jealousy.
818
00:52:05,358 --> 00:52:08,505
There is self-love involved
in every human emotion.
819
00:52:09,762 --> 00:52:12,470
That's how it begins
and that's how it ends.
820
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,182
We're all ignoble savages,
821
00:52:15,232 --> 00:52:16,820
I think, really enough...
822
00:52:17,111 --> 00:52:19,950
whether we're black or white,
or Moorish, or
823
00:52:20,851 --> 00:52:24,627
or Blackamoor or Spanish or Venetian...
824
00:52:26,189 --> 00:52:30,382
Self-love is the beginning and the end
of the human tragedy, I think.
825
00:52:30,816 --> 00:52:35,167
- I agree entirely with you.
- You do agree? Then I must be wrong.
826
00:52:36,535 --> 00:52:37,753
I was only wondering...
827
00:52:38,335 --> 00:52:42,176
I have been terribly jealous
in my life, and you? - I have been.
828
00:52:43,092 --> 00:52:45,495
And isn't it about the worst experience?
829
00:52:45,703 --> 00:52:50,161
I agree and yet without mentioning
names, the person I envy most,
830
00:52:50,810 --> 00:52:53,984
I have no feeling of bad
pain about it at all,
831
00:52:54,034 --> 00:52:56,343
I envy, not mentioning any names at all,
832
00:52:56,393 --> 00:52:58,663
I can pick up two people that I envy.
833
00:52:58,713 --> 00:53:01,031
Not very wrong, you know, it can be.
834
00:53:01,081 --> 00:53:03,712
If you go on like that, I might even
tell you and that'll ruin everything,
835
00:53:03,762 --> 00:53:05,026
- however
- Who?
836
00:53:05,388 --> 00:53:07,429
I envy Michael, his languages,
837
00:53:11,812 --> 00:53:13,883
I envy you, your capacity,
838
00:53:14,056 --> 00:53:17,781
you described it to me many years
ago about another actor who said,
839
00:53:17,831 --> 00:53:20,949
he had a wonderful capacity
for displacing air.
840
00:53:21,913 --> 00:53:25,608
Believe you me,
no greater cubic capacity of air
841
00:53:25,658 --> 00:53:30,330
has ever been displaced by any human
being, as is being displaced by you
842
00:53:30,380 --> 00:53:31,605
at this moment.
843
00:53:31,655 --> 00:53:36,630
You said something of the sort to me,
when I auditioned for you 300 years ago
844
00:53:37,051 --> 00:53:40,866
at the Gate Theater.
That I was a bloody bad actor.
845
00:53:41,284 --> 00:53:43,930
I always knew you were
a potentially good actor.
846
00:53:43,980 --> 00:53:46,188
If you're a politician,
you're in Congress
847
00:53:46,238 --> 00:53:49,107
and you wish you were in
the White House, that's envy.
848
00:53:49,157 --> 00:53:52,626
If you think the President is
making love to your wife, that's...
849
00:53:52,676 --> 00:53:53,447
jealousy.
850
00:53:53,497 --> 00:54:00,487
But he cannot be just the lie from
a desire for possession, he's all for
851
00:54:00,763 --> 00:54:04,531
All for desire to entirely possess
the whole and justify what is,
852
00:54:04,581 --> 00:54:08,077
if I might quote the phrase,
'Each man kills the thing he love.'
853
00:54:08,127 --> 00:54:11,371
Yes, and if you dare as Othello did.
854
00:54:13,341 --> 00:54:14,502
I was just...
855
00:54:15,658 --> 00:54:17,564
going back in my mind to that
856
00:54:17,614 --> 00:54:21,256
that business of Othello's age,
and wondering how many other
857
00:54:21,563 --> 00:54:26,296
mistakes, how many other
misinterpretations I was guilty of,
858
00:54:27,135 --> 00:54:29,680
that you were too nice to
mention during the shooting.
859
00:54:29,730 --> 00:54:33,948
There was never one direction you gave
me which I disagreed with personally,
860
00:54:33,998 --> 00:54:35,014
never one.
861
00:54:35,265 --> 00:54:38,787
- Oh, that's very nice.
- Never one single... one except...
862
00:54:39,068 --> 00:54:41,135
"take the cloak and go!"
863
00:54:41,316 --> 00:54:42,457
Oh, yes...
864
00:54:43,126 --> 00:54:47,288
I think I'd better explain. That's a
family joke. There was a scene in which
865
00:54:47,338 --> 00:54:50,209
you were supposed to
take up your cloak and...
866
00:54:50,422 --> 00:54:51,491
yes, and go!
867
00:54:52,339 --> 00:54:56,964
And I disagreed passionately.
I wanted to make the most of that.
868
00:54:58,412 --> 00:55:00,977
Well, yes, whenever I wanted to
869
00:55:01,450 --> 00:55:06,697
to simplify the action or the business,
or whatever it was, to eliminate
870
00:55:07,278 --> 00:55:13,000
superfluous declaration, I'd just
repeat that privately famous line.
871
00:55:13,273 --> 00:55:17,344
"Will you take the cloak and go."
That's all you had to do, you said.
872
00:55:17,394 --> 00:55:22,435
Which you did it eventually, and
very nicely too. Let's drink to that.
873
00:55:24,350 --> 00:55:26,082
And here
874
00:55:26,132 --> 00:55:28,937
our luncheon party comes to an end.
875
00:55:30,282 --> 00:55:34,619
We didn't run out of food or wine,
and we certainly didn't run out of talk.
876
00:55:35,902 --> 00:55:37,615
We just ran out of film.
877
00:55:39,898 --> 00:55:46,290
Why, I wonder, does MacLiammoir
say that Iago is a mystery?
878
00:55:47,226 --> 00:55:50,267
What he means, I think, is that,
879
00:55:50,317 --> 00:55:52,515
the Shakespeareans often call him that
880
00:55:52,565 --> 00:55:55,732
and what worries them,
I think what worries all of us,
881
00:55:56,459 --> 00:55:58,965
is the mystery of evil itself.
882
00:56:00,999 --> 00:56:03,031
Now there's a tendency today
883
00:56:03,296 --> 00:56:06,672
to deny the existence of evil,
not to believe in it,
884
00:56:07,475 --> 00:56:09,035
to call evil a sickness.
885
00:56:09,405 --> 00:56:12,400
And you'll say, I suppose,
that our notion of
886
00:56:12,581 --> 00:56:16,020
playing Iago as sexually
impotent is a very
887
00:56:16,753 --> 00:56:19,628
modern sort of trick.
Well if it is a trick,
888
00:56:19,678 --> 00:56:20,752
and I hope it isn't,
889
00:56:20,802 --> 00:56:24,818
at least we didn't impose it
very heavily on the film itself.
890
00:56:25,357 --> 00:56:26,717
Now I do believe
891
00:56:27,821 --> 00:56:31,984
quite fervently in the existence of
evil and certainly Shakespeare did.
892
00:56:32,097 --> 00:56:35,193
and just as certainly Iago
is the embodiment of evil,
893
00:56:35,243 --> 00:56:39,336
more so even than Richard III,
whose actions were evil,
894
00:56:39,545 --> 00:56:42,064
but who was motivated by ambition.
895
00:56:43,085 --> 00:56:44,937
Iago has no ambition.
896
00:56:45,115 --> 00:56:47,911
He hates Cassio,
that's due for having been given a
897
00:56:47,961 --> 00:56:52,927
military title, that he might have had,
but he would have hated him anyway.
898
00:56:54,004 --> 00:56:57,035
His envy, all of his brand of jealousy
899
00:56:57,888 --> 00:56:59,113
is an excuse.
900
00:56:59,561 --> 00:57:01,259
Of Cassio he says,
901
00:57:03,043 --> 00:57:06,419
"there is a daily beauty
in his life, which
902
00:57:07,078 --> 00:57:08,561
makes me ugly."
903
00:57:09,865 --> 00:57:10,800
You see,
904
00:57:11,691 --> 00:57:13,131
Iago is a slave.
905
00:57:14,036 --> 00:57:17,025
He has the heart of a slave,
he has the special
906
00:57:17,075 --> 00:57:21,564
cunning and all the artful
hypocrisy of the slave who revels
907
00:57:22,038 --> 00:57:23,903
in the condition of slavery.
908
00:57:24,531 --> 00:57:26,122
Dostoyevsky says,
909
00:57:27,820 --> 00:57:30,560
"the secret consciousness of power
910
00:57:31,012 --> 00:57:31,968
is more
911
00:57:32,497 --> 00:57:34,578
insupportably delicious,
912
00:57:36,127 --> 00:57:37,867
than open domination."
913
00:57:39,670 --> 00:57:41,091
And Iago says,
914
00:57:42,162 --> 00:57:44,281
"we cannot all be masters,
915
00:57:45,805 --> 00:57:49,495
nor all masters cannot
be truly followed."
916
00:57:51,383 --> 00:57:54,251
The irony is... satanic.
917
00:57:55,573 --> 00:57:58,294
The whole key to his character,
and another key,
918
00:57:58,344 --> 00:58:00,889
comes again from Iago himself, who says,
919
00:58:01,951 --> 00:58:04,819
"I am not what I am."
920
00:58:07,244 --> 00:58:10,288
All the other people in
the story are people of feeling.
921
00:58:10,338 --> 00:58:11,622
Iago is the intellect.
922
00:58:11,672 --> 00:58:14,961
He is pure intellect,
and as Emerson says,
923
00:58:15,601 --> 00:58:19,081
"Pure intellect is the pure devil.
924
00:58:20,098 --> 00:58:21,428
Pure and cold."
925
00:58:21,994 --> 00:58:25,988
Iago's is the terrible
alliance of pure intellect
926
00:58:27,117 --> 00:58:29,664
and hate and this is damnation.
927
00:58:31,409 --> 00:58:34,151
The worst of all Hells
in Dante's Inferno,
928
00:58:35,864 --> 00:58:37,632
is the Hell of ice.
929
00:58:38,929 --> 00:58:41,565
Iago, of course, is incapable of love.
930
00:58:41,615 --> 00:58:45,179
He's forever protesting his
love for Othello, to Othello.
931
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:52,358
And Othello believes him,
he is after all, honest... honest Iago.
932
00:58:52,674 --> 00:58:55,311
Those words,
honest Iago are heard often.
933
00:58:55,361 --> 00:58:57,546
The word honest is
heard even more often.
934
00:58:57,596 --> 00:59:01,759
Everybody speaks in the play,
describing Iago as honest.
935
00:59:01,809 --> 00:59:06,111
Desdemona does, Cassio does, Othello
does, and Iago does, interminably.
936
00:59:06,161 --> 00:59:10,491
The point is that Othello believing
Iago, believing him honest,
937
00:59:10,541 --> 00:59:13,050
believes his blameless
wife is dishonest.
938
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:15,061
It's the supreme irony.
939
00:59:15,111 --> 00:59:17,949
But I think it's easy enough to
understand, when you think about it.
940
00:59:17,999 --> 00:59:19,090
Desdemona, after all,
941
00:59:19,140 --> 00:59:23,636
comes from the gilded, pleasure loving,
luxurious world of Venetian aristocracy,
942
00:59:23,686 --> 00:59:27,260
about which Othello knows absolutely
nothing, except that it's morals
943
00:59:27,310 --> 00:59:28,856
are notoriously loose.
944
00:59:28,906 --> 00:59:31,188
He is a professional army man,
after all.
945
00:59:31,238 --> 00:59:35,623
A stranger in the society of high-born,
high-spirited noblewomen.
946
00:59:35,673 --> 00:59:39,549
He's married one of them, they've just
married. Now that's very important.
947
00:59:39,599 --> 00:59:41,235
They're just married.
948
00:59:41,489 --> 00:59:44,279
He scarcely knows her at all.
Indeed, he never comes to know her.
949
00:59:44,329 --> 00:59:47,225
She dies in his hands... a stranger.
950
00:59:47,477 --> 00:59:52,605
Strangers to each other. Well, Othello
knows, or thinks he knows Iago very well
951
00:59:52,655 --> 00:59:55,161
and before anything remember,
Iago is honest.
952
00:59:55,211 --> 00:59:57,982
His slandering of Desdemona
is done with great subtlety.
953
00:59:58,032 --> 01:00:00,684
There is nothing,
apparently to gain by it.
954
01:00:02,378 --> 01:00:05,864
So there really isn't any reason,
to speak of Othello, as
955
01:00:05,914 --> 01:00:09,345
as some critics do,
as childishly gullible.
956
01:00:12,378 --> 01:00:14,373
No, Desdemona, for Othello
957
01:00:14,637 --> 01:00:19,609
is the bride in a romance. A dream,
he scarcely had time to discover what's
958
01:00:19,659 --> 01:00:22,564
flesh and blood,
before Iago's poisons have begun the
959
01:00:22,614 --> 01:00:25,358
work in to turn
the dream into a nightmare.
960
01:00:26,638 --> 01:00:31,200
Iago is a trusted officer in Othello's
commandery, a companion under arms.
961
01:00:31,250 --> 01:00:36,482
Othello's soldier, Othello male
and Othello is monumentally male.
962
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,306
His story is monumentally
a male tragedy.
963
01:00:40,803 --> 01:00:44,748
Small wonder that the doubt falls
where it usually does in life.
964
01:00:44,798 --> 01:00:49,545
Not on the slanderer, but on
the innocent object of the slander.
965
01:00:50,650 --> 01:00:54,488
There's certainly a huge
simplicity about Othello,
966
01:00:54,673 --> 01:00:58,390
but in trusting Iago, he does no
more than anyone else in the story.
967
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,106
They all trust him, as we've seen.
968
01:01:00,156 --> 01:01:01,878
No, the commander of the armed forces
969
01:01:01,928 --> 01:01:04,820
of the great Venetian
Republic is no stupid child.
970
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:08,730
He is no Venetian sophisticated, either.
I think he must feel
971
01:01:08,780 --> 01:01:10,806
something close to awe,
972
01:01:10,856 --> 01:01:13,939
in his love of Desdemona,
the Senator's daughter, who
973
01:01:13,989 --> 01:01:17,343
fled from the palace in the dead
of night, to marry a black man.
974
01:01:17,393 --> 01:01:20,278
Black Othello, the outsider,
the mercenary, the foreigner,
975
01:01:20,328 --> 01:01:22,992
and the older man, must feel a certain
976
01:01:23,042 --> 01:01:27,622
insecurity when he contemplates
this curious conquest of his.
977
01:01:28,418 --> 01:01:32,058
He has married her, as if by a miracle,
but can he keep her?
978
01:01:32,291 --> 01:01:37,525
Might she not turn away from him,
as suddenly as she ran away with him?
979
01:01:40,147 --> 01:01:43,892
Now, just for a moment,
I'd like to quote from the play itself.
980
01:01:45,008 --> 01:01:45,941
Othello,
981
01:01:46,595 --> 01:01:47,924
along with Iago,
982
01:01:49,163 --> 01:01:51,589
as he's first beginning to doubt, says,
983
01:01:53,864 --> 01:01:54,868
"I swear
984
01:01:56,330 --> 01:01:58,828
"'tis better to be much abused
985
01:02:00,117 --> 01:02:02,177
Than but to know't a little.
986
01:02:04,519 --> 01:02:06,078
What sense had I
987
01:02:06,607 --> 01:02:08,966
of her stol'n hours of lust?
988
01:02:10,228 --> 01:02:13,945
I saw't not, thought it not,
it harm'd not me:
989
01:02:14,575 --> 01:02:16,941
I slept the next night well,
990
01:02:17,247 --> 01:02:18,347
fed well,
991
01:02:18,904 --> 01:02:19,927
was free
992
01:02:20,191 --> 01:02:21,152
and merry;
993
01:02:23,556 --> 01:02:26,117
I found not Cassio's kisses
994
01:02:28,289 --> 01:02:29,472
on her lips.
995
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:33,834
By the world,
996
01:02:34,878 --> 01:02:36,855
I think my wife be honest
997
01:02:40,226 --> 01:02:42,106
and think she is not.
998
01:02:44,618 --> 01:02:46,512
I'll have some proof.
999
01:02:48,707 --> 01:02:49,739
My name,
1000
01:02:51,173 --> 01:02:54,333
that was as fresh as Dian's visage,
1001
01:02:55,322 --> 01:02:57,082
is now begrimed and
1002
01:02:58,008 --> 01:02:58,885
black
1003
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:02,650
as mine own face.
1004
01:03:07,424 --> 01:03:10,620
I would be satisfied
but Iago says, 'how?
1005
01:03:11,954 --> 01:03:13,819
how satisfied, my lord?'
1006
01:03:14,891 --> 01:03:15,968
Would you,
1007
01:03:16,018 --> 01:03:18,879
the supervisor, grossly gape on,
1008
01:03:20,531 --> 01:03:22,229
behold her topped?
1009
01:03:22,688 --> 01:03:27,595
It is impossible you should see this,
were they as prime as goats,
1010
01:03:28,262 --> 01:03:29,960
as hot as monkeys.'
1011
01:03:31,686 --> 01:03:35,638
'Give me a reason,' says Othello,
'Give me a living reason she's disloyal'
1012
01:03:35,688 --> 01:03:38,628
'I do not like the office' says Iago,
'But, sith
1013
01:03:38,678 --> 01:03:44,863
I am enter'd in this cause so far,
prick'd to't by foolish honesty and love
1014
01:03:45,990 --> 01:03:47,354
I will go on.
1015
01:03:47,730 --> 01:03:50,229
I lay with Cassio lately; and,
1016
01:03:50,577 --> 01:03:54,687
being troubled with a raging tooth,
I could not sleep.
1017
01:03:56,030 --> 01:03:58,911
There are a kind of
men so loose of soul,
1018
01:03:58,961 --> 01:04:02,009
that in their sleeps will
mutter their affairs:
1019
01:04:03,299 --> 01:04:05,530
One of this kind is Cassio:
1020
01:04:06,504 --> 01:04:08,606
In sleep I heard him say
1021
01:04:09,831 --> 01:04:13,432
'Sweet Desdemona, let us be wary,
1022
01:04:14,617 --> 01:04:16,651
let us hide our loves;'
1023
01:04:17,083 --> 01:04:18,324
And then, sir,
1024
01:04:18,728 --> 01:04:21,118
would he gripe and wring my hand,
1025
01:04:21,168 --> 01:04:23,934
cry 'O sweet creature!'
1026
01:04:24,792 --> 01:04:26,762
and then kiss me hard,
1027
01:04:27,808 --> 01:04:31,291
as if he pluck'd up kisses by the roots
1028
01:04:32,309 --> 01:04:34,337
that grew upon my lips:
1029
01:04:35,948 --> 01:04:37,585
then laid his leg
1030
01:04:38,366 --> 01:04:39,798
over my thigh,
1031
01:04:40,816 --> 01:04:43,016
and sigh'd, and kiss'd;
1032
01:04:44,327 --> 01:04:45,762
and then cried
1033
01:04:46,696 --> 01:04:50,040
'Cursed fate that gave
thee to the Moor!'"
1034
01:04:55,428 --> 01:04:59,789
And then at the beginning of the play,
the beginning of the love between
1035
01:04:59,839 --> 01:05:04,097
Othello and Desdemona,
there's the famous speech to the senate,
1036
01:05:04,907 --> 01:05:08,090
which, I think, explains a good deal and
1037
01:05:08,140 --> 01:05:10,607
tells us a lot about Othello himself,
1038
01:05:11,181 --> 01:05:12,826
as well as that love.
1039
01:05:13,288 --> 01:05:15,160
He's brought to the senate,
1040
01:05:15,210 --> 01:05:21,644
charged by Desdemona's father with
the crime of having seduced Desdemona
1041
01:05:22,126 --> 01:05:25,555
by magic spells and this is
what he says to the senators:
1042
01:05:28,207 --> 01:05:29,572
"Most potent,
1043
01:05:30,004 --> 01:05:32,443
grave, and reverend signiors,
1044
01:05:33,951 --> 01:05:37,115
My very noble and approved good masters,
1045
01:05:39,612 --> 01:05:43,981
That I have ta'en away this old
man�s daughter, it is most true.
1046
01:05:44,743 --> 01:05:46,903
True, I have married her.
1047
01:05:47,154 --> 01:05:51,921
The very head and front of
my offending hath this extent, no more.
1048
01:05:53,863 --> 01:05:59,243
Rude am I in my speech, and little
blessed with the soft phrase of peace,
1049
01:06:00,304 --> 01:06:03,307
For since these arms of
mine had seven years' pith
1050
01:06:03,357 --> 01:06:07,537
till now some nine moons wasted,
they have used their dearest action
1051
01:06:07,587 --> 01:06:09,127
in the tented field,
1052
01:06:10,077 --> 01:06:11,526
And little of this
1053
01:06:12,307 --> 01:06:14,349
great world can I speak,
1054
01:06:15,420 --> 01:06:18,113
More than pertains to
feats of broils and battle,
1055
01:06:18,163 --> 01:06:22,763
and therefore little shall I grace
my cause in speaking for myself.
1056
01:06:23,394 --> 01:06:25,583
Yet, by your gracious patience,
1057
01:06:26,140 --> 01:06:33,332
I will a round unvarnished tale
deliver of my whole course of love.
1058
01:06:34,423 --> 01:06:35,650
What drugs,
1059
01:06:36,319 --> 01:06:37,601
what charms,
1060
01:06:38,277 --> 01:06:41,180
what conjuration and what mighty magic�
1061
01:06:41,890 --> 01:06:44,905
For such proceeding I am charged withal�
1062
01:06:46,271 --> 01:06:47,819
I won his daughter.
1063
01:06:51,042 --> 01:06:53,943
Her father loved me, oft invited me,
1064
01:06:54,124 --> 01:06:56,647
Still questioned me the story of my life
1065
01:06:57,399 --> 01:06:58,827
from year to year,
1066
01:06:59,409 --> 01:07:03,275
the battles, sieges, fortunes,
that I have passed. I ran it through,
1067
01:07:03,325 --> 01:07:06,898
even from my boyish days,
wherein I spoke of most
1068
01:07:06,948 --> 01:07:08,718
disastrous chances,
1069
01:07:09,421 --> 01:07:13,887
Of moving accidents by flood and field,
of hair-breadth �scapes
1070
01:07:13,937 --> 01:07:15,965
in the imminent deadly breach,
1071
01:07:16,369 --> 01:07:19,916
of being taken by the insolent
foe and sold to slavery,
1072
01:07:20,506 --> 01:07:22,072
of my redemption thence
1073
01:07:22,122 --> 01:07:24,729
And portance in my traveler�s history.
1074
01:07:24,966 --> 01:07:28,115
Wherein of antres vast and deserts idle,
1075
01:07:29,079 --> 01:07:33,776
rough quarries, rocks,
hills whose heads touch heaven
1076
01:07:35,312 --> 01:07:37,350
It was my hint to speak
1077
01:07:37,946 --> 01:07:39,590
�such was my process�
1078
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,301
and of the Cannibals
that each others eat,
1079
01:07:43,970 --> 01:07:45,670
the Anthropophagi,
1080
01:07:46,548 --> 01:07:49,788
and men whose heads do grow
beneath their shoulders.
1081
01:07:50,025 --> 01:07:54,715
These things to hear would
Desdemona seriously incline.
1082
01:07:55,544 --> 01:07:58,869
But still the house affairs
would draw her hence,
1083
01:07:59,238 --> 01:08:02,983
which ever as she could with
haste dispatch, she�d come again,
1084
01:08:03,506 --> 01:08:07,408
and with a greedy ear
devour up my discourse,
1085
01:08:08,231 --> 01:08:11,848
which I, observing, found good means to
draw from her a prayer of earnest heart
1086
01:08:11,898 --> 01:08:16,200
that I would all my pilgrimage dilate,
whereof by parcels
1087
01:08:16,772 --> 01:08:19,510
she had something heard
but not intentively.
1088
01:08:20,042 --> 01:08:21,464
I did consent,
1089
01:08:22,452 --> 01:08:24,919
And often did beguile her of her tears
1090
01:08:25,951 --> 01:08:31,114
when I did speak of some distressful
stroke that my youth suffered.
1091
01:08:33,385 --> 01:08:34,933
My story being done
1092
01:08:36,312 --> 01:08:38,222
she gave me for my pains
1093
01:08:39,936 --> 01:08:41,567
a world of sighs.
1094
01:08:44,024 --> 01:08:46,770
She swore, in faith, �twas strange,
1095
01:08:47,759 --> 01:08:49,716
�twas passing strange,
1096
01:08:49,982 --> 01:08:51,341
'twas pitiful,
1097
01:08:51,606 --> 01:08:53,550
�twas wondrous pitiful.
1098
01:08:53,896 --> 01:08:56,042
She wished she had not heard it,
1099
01:08:56,516 --> 01:09:01,417
yet she wished that heaven had
made her such a man. She thanked me
1100
01:09:02,035 --> 01:09:05,939
and she bade me,
if I had a friend that loved her,
1101
01:09:07,755 --> 01:09:10,989
I should but teach him
how to tell my story
1102
01:09:12,577 --> 01:09:14,480
and that would woo her.
1103
01:09:16,412 --> 01:09:19,051
Upon this hint I spake.
1104
01:09:23,258 --> 01:09:26,425
She loved me for
the dangers I had passed,
1105
01:09:29,282 --> 01:09:30,607
And I loved her
1106
01:09:32,204 --> 01:09:33,932
that she did pity them."
1107
01:09:37,941 --> 01:09:39,335
That's the speech.
1108
01:09:40,576 --> 01:09:41,468
Now...
1109
01:09:43,003 --> 01:09:44,299
Last winter,
1110
01:09:46,006 --> 01:09:48,403
Last winter they invited me to Boston,
1111
01:09:49,267 --> 01:09:52,880
for a special showing
of the film of Othello,
1112
01:09:54,451 --> 01:09:57,851
the audience stayed on
after the screening.
1113
01:09:58,925 --> 01:10:01,225
A movie has to have a great opening.
1114
01:10:02,872 --> 01:10:04,912
It must command attention.
1115
01:10:05,344 --> 01:10:10,486
The opening of Othello is written for
an audience that's just getting quiet.
1116
01:10:11,448 --> 01:10:14,088
And Like all openings in a play,
1117
01:10:14,333 --> 01:10:18,915
because you don't ever want to open
a play at the top of your bent.
1118
01:10:19,180 --> 01:10:22,611
But a movie should open at
the top of it's bent, it must,
1119
01:10:22,795 --> 01:10:24,885
because this damn thing is dead.
1120
01:10:25,492 --> 01:10:29,875
The only living thing are the people
sitting out here. It's a projected image
1121
01:10:29,925 --> 01:10:32,130
and you cannot bring the thing alive
1122
01:10:32,180 --> 01:10:34,591
unless you seize
the people at the beginning.
1123
01:10:34,641 --> 01:10:36,904
The riderless horse has to come in.
1124
01:10:37,353 --> 01:10:43,346
The funeral of Othello and the lynching
of Iago, is the riderless horse.
1125
01:10:44,059 --> 01:10:45,425
Just as simple as that.
1126
01:10:45,475 --> 01:10:48,950
May I ask a question which at
first blush may sound silly?
1127
01:10:50,501 --> 01:10:53,565
Is Roderigo's dog a terrier?
1128
01:10:56,364 --> 01:10:59,161
- The reason I ask, well,
- Yes, why are you asking?
1129
01:10:59,211 --> 01:11:03,088
Well, if you consult the Jan van
Eyck's The Arnolfini Marriage Portrait,
1130
01:11:03,138 --> 01:11:08,266
you'll find in addition to the circular
mirror which you used in this film,
1131
01:11:08,615 --> 01:11:12,422
that a terrier is
a symbol of marital fidelity
1132
01:11:12,786 --> 01:11:15,229
and it seems to be at
the heart of the film
1133
01:11:15,279 --> 01:11:17,618
and I was wondering if
that was why you selected
1134
01:11:17,668 --> 01:11:18,751
- such a dog.
- I like your opinion.
1135
01:11:18,801 --> 01:11:21,084
This is a kind of a question I love,
1136
01:11:21,998 --> 01:11:27,054
because if I'd known about the question
before, I would've been able to pretend
1137
01:11:27,104 --> 01:11:29,409
that I had indeed used a terrier
1138
01:11:29,459 --> 01:11:32,643
because it is a classic
symbol of marital infidelity.
1139
01:11:34,102 --> 01:11:36,500
Oh, fidelity. That's just what I said.
1140
01:11:40,502 --> 01:11:44,424
But since I didn't have notice of this
question, I haven't got time to con you.
1141
01:11:44,474 --> 01:11:46,571
I'll have to tell you the truth.
1142
01:11:46,621 --> 01:11:49,132
The terrier was not a terrier.
1143
01:11:49,299 --> 01:11:52,184
It was a Tenerife,
which is a very rare kind of dog,
1144
01:11:52,234 --> 01:11:57,882
because it is the lapdog used by the
dandies in all the Carpaccio paintings,
1145
01:11:58,516 --> 01:12:00,872
and Carpaccio was the source
1146
01:12:01,304 --> 01:12:04,342
of the costumes
and the general aesthetic of the movie.
1147
01:12:05,529 --> 01:12:07,522
That's the answer to that one.
1148
01:12:08,083 --> 01:12:09,315
I was wondering, sir,
1149
01:12:09,365 --> 01:12:11,429
in Olivier's production of Othello,
1150
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:15,775
he seems to stress the vanity of the man
much more than in your production.
1151
01:12:15,825 --> 01:12:17,122
Would you comment on that?
1152
01:12:17,172 --> 01:12:21,665
You see, the themes of Othello
were set down first by Shakespeare,
1153
01:12:22,055 --> 01:12:24,812
and of course there's a difference
1154
01:12:25,014 --> 01:12:29,160
in every Othello, depending on who makes
the film, or theatrical production.
1155
01:12:29,210 --> 01:12:31,865
Because there are so many
ways of doing it, there isn't
1156
01:12:31,915 --> 01:12:33,583
one right way of doing it.
1157
01:12:34,411 --> 01:12:36,991
If I could make Othello
again - first of all
1158
01:12:37,041 --> 01:12:39,243
I've done it in the theater since then,
1159
01:12:39,293 --> 01:12:43,174
when I did it completely differently,
as an actor and as well as a director.
1160
01:12:43,224 --> 01:12:44,634
We took an entirely new
1161
01:12:44,684 --> 01:12:48,758
line on everything, because that's
the great opportunity that you have.
1162
01:12:48,808 --> 01:12:52,796
The minute you have a great piece of
material, like a Shakespearean play,
1163
01:12:52,846 --> 01:12:56,108
or any other thing of that kind,
you are free to make
1164
01:12:56,158 --> 01:12:58,305
almost anything you want with it.
1165
01:12:59,366 --> 01:13:02,513
You could go so many
directions and still be true to
1166
01:13:03,937 --> 01:13:05,610
the essential job.
1167
01:13:06,295 --> 01:13:07,257
Yes, sir.
1168
01:13:07,903 --> 01:13:13,706
The role of Iago in this production of
Othello seemed somewhat straightforward,
1169
01:13:13,756 --> 01:13:17,363
to be largely envy,
but in some of your other movies,
1170
01:13:17,413 --> 01:13:21,558
specifically "The Lady From Shanghai,"
the motives of Arthur Bannister
1171
01:13:21,812 --> 01:13:23,467
seem much more obscure.
1172
01:13:24,551 --> 01:13:27,209
Nobody ever works in a big organization,
1173
01:13:27,645 --> 01:13:30,477
whether it's military, or business, or
1174
01:13:30,743 --> 01:13:34,562
theatrical or anything else,
without running into a few Iago's.
1175
01:13:36,704 --> 01:13:37,672
Now,
1176
01:13:37,722 --> 01:13:40,210
there are all kinds of ways of doing it.
1177
01:13:40,377 --> 01:13:43,689
When Olivier did Iago with Richardson,
1178
01:13:44,219 --> 01:13:47,480
years ago, they did it
as a homosexual relationship.
1179
01:13:49,420 --> 01:13:53,907
When Othello were played by
Richardson and fell into his fit,
1180
01:13:54,569 --> 01:13:57,586
Iago kissed him
passionately on the lips.
1181
01:13:58,401 --> 01:14:00,999
I don't know how that worked,
but I know that they did it.
1182
01:14:01,049 --> 01:14:03,314
There are many different efforts.
1183
01:14:03,364 --> 01:14:05,613
In the case of this film,
1184
01:14:06,324 --> 01:14:08,246
I took the line that
1185
01:14:08,776 --> 01:14:10,169
Iago was impotent,
1186
01:14:10,977 --> 01:14:12,733
and that his malice
1187
01:14:13,290 --> 01:14:15,938
was the malice of impotence.
1188
01:14:17,460 --> 01:14:18,728
Something else,
1189
01:14:19,230 --> 01:14:19,996
Sir...
1190
01:14:21,045 --> 01:14:25,909
You took the set design from
your Harlem theater companies...
1191
01:14:26,703 --> 01:14:28,255
How do you know that?
1192
01:14:28,420 --> 01:14:32,884
Because I taught a course on
your films a few years ago.
1193
01:14:33,704 --> 01:14:37,918
You used the set design from
the Harlem theater company staging of...
1194
01:14:37,968 --> 01:14:38,818
Haiti.
1195
01:14:38,868 --> 01:14:41,839
Only the basic plan, not the set design.
1196
01:14:42,866 --> 01:14:46,312
You set it in Haiti, right,
and you eliminated the palm trees
1197
01:14:46,362 --> 01:14:47,947
from the film set.
1198
01:14:47,997 --> 01:14:50,122
It wasn't that simple, no.
1199
01:14:51,962 --> 01:14:54,923
Alright,
I was just wondering why you chose
1200
01:14:55,493 --> 01:15:00,764
to make that a one-shot experiment and
never repeat the effort of making a film
1201
01:15:00,814 --> 01:15:03,145
quickly, as you said, to inspire others,
1202
01:15:03,195 --> 01:15:06,096
- to tackle difficult projects
in a short amount of time. - exactly.
1203
01:15:06,428 --> 01:15:09,160
I don't know if you all
heard that in the back.
1204
01:15:10,184 --> 01:15:15,768
The point is that Macbeth,
which was made in a very short time,
1205
01:15:15,818 --> 01:15:19,822
it was actually, the actual principal
photography was nineteen days,
1206
01:15:19,872 --> 01:15:21,308
with two days more for
1207
01:15:21,358 --> 01:15:24,214
inserts and things like that,
so it was a real quicky.
1208
01:15:24,264 --> 01:15:32,030
And the basic set had the same plan
which I had used in the black Macbeth,
1209
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:34,991
which I had done in Harlem,
in the theater, some years before.
1210
01:15:35,041 --> 01:15:36,604
It wasn't the same set.
1211
01:15:36,654 --> 01:15:40,856
but it had the same basic plan,
because it worked before
1212
01:15:41,079 --> 01:15:42,962
and we were in a great rush.
1213
01:15:43,012 --> 01:15:45,069
And the question was why
1214
01:15:45,848 --> 01:15:49,394
have I not repeated
the experiment of making quickly
1215
01:15:50,943 --> 01:15:54,447
serious or difficult subjects
like Shakespearian plays.
1216
01:15:55,283 --> 01:15:59,725
And the answer is that I was gambling
on Macbeth being a great success,
1217
01:16:00,525 --> 01:16:04,710
the American critical press for
Macbeth was very bad at the time.
1218
01:16:05,172 --> 01:16:07,327
The European press was very good.
1219
01:16:07,969 --> 01:16:09,671
When you've got the film shot,
1220
01:16:09,721 --> 01:16:13,927
and you're sitting in the editing room,
putting the film together,
1221
01:16:14,443 --> 01:16:15,765
can you tell us what
1222
01:16:15,815 --> 01:16:19,590
is the question that's going through
your mind as you select things?
1223
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:25,453
What applicable questions for each scene
makes you select one shot over another?
1224
01:16:25,503 --> 01:16:28,730
or as you're having the camera pan
through a room or something you want
1225
01:16:28,780 --> 01:16:31,226
to cut to somebody's
expression or whatever.
1226
01:16:31,276 --> 01:16:34,855
I have done a great
deal of that editing,
1227
01:16:35,222 --> 01:16:36,675
while I am filming.
1228
01:16:36,906 --> 01:16:39,704
I visualize the editing,
while I am filming.
1229
01:16:39,754 --> 01:16:42,717
And when I change that idea,
1230
01:16:43,066 --> 01:16:44,875
it is a deliberate change.
1231
01:16:45,276 --> 01:16:49,439
What's the difference between that what
you preconceive in before you shoot
1232
01:16:49,489 --> 01:16:51,680
and that what you actually
do after you shoot.
1233
01:16:51,730 --> 01:16:54,678
The difference is bigger
than I'd like to admit,
1234
01:16:55,212 --> 01:16:58,539
and I do admit it, yes,
the difference is pretty great,
1235
01:16:58,589 --> 01:17:00,872
because actors teach you so much.
1236
01:17:01,427 --> 01:17:04,732
The scenery, the smell of a thing,
you come on a set
1237
01:17:04,782 --> 01:17:09,924
in the morning, whether it's Othello,
or a modern story, whatever it might be.
1238
01:17:10,429 --> 01:17:11,255
And...
1239
01:17:11,305 --> 01:17:14,639
If you have a master plan
for what you're going to do,
1240
01:17:14,812 --> 01:17:18,350
exactly where the camera is going to be,
exactly what the scene
1241
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:19,948
is supposed to state,
1242
01:17:21,096 --> 01:17:24,538
if you are locked into that,
you are depriving yourself
1243
01:17:24,857 --> 01:17:27,694
of the divine accidents of moviemaking.
1244
01:17:28,414 --> 01:17:31,487
Because everywhere there
are beautiful accidents.
1245
01:17:31,918 --> 01:17:32,988
The actor
1246
01:17:33,038 --> 01:17:37,230
says something in a different way
than you ever dreamed it could be said.
1247
01:17:37,747 --> 01:17:39,346
She looks differently,
1248
01:17:39,958 --> 01:17:42,614
there's a smell in the air,
there's a look
1249
01:17:42,919 --> 01:17:46,169
that changes the whole
resonance of what you expected.
1250
01:17:47,763 --> 01:17:50,016
Then, there are the true accidents,
1251
01:17:50,391 --> 01:17:56,733
and my definition of a film director
is the man who presides over accidents,
1252
01:18:02,230 --> 01:18:03,829
but doesn't make them.
1253
01:18:06,069 --> 01:18:07,976
I'm going to stop just here,
1254
01:18:08,715 --> 01:18:11,600
not only because our time is almost up,
1255
01:18:12,163 --> 01:18:14,839
because at this point in the discussion,
1256
01:18:15,215 --> 01:18:19,035
the Boston film buffs veered
away from the subject of Othello.
1257
01:18:20,507 --> 01:18:24,115
If I've evaded any of their questions,
or any of yours,
1258
01:18:25,905 --> 01:18:27,354
it's not by design.
1259
01:18:28,591 --> 01:18:31,329
Maybe I should have read
into the record some of the
1260
01:18:31,379 --> 01:18:33,856
things that critics have
said against Othello.
1261
01:18:33,906 --> 01:18:36,296
You might have found that informative.
1262
01:18:36,936 --> 01:18:39,093
I would have found it depressing.
1263
01:18:39,308 --> 01:18:42,624
Then I'm very much afraid
that under the banner of fair play,
1264
01:18:42,674 --> 01:18:45,542
and the interest of what's
called a balanced judgment,
1265
01:18:45,592 --> 01:18:49,568
I couldn't have resisted reading
you some of the good stuff as well.
1266
01:18:50,010 --> 01:18:52,759
Anyway it's an argument
that still goes on and on.
1267
01:18:52,809 --> 01:18:56,664
I spared you both sides of it,
and I don't know if I was mistaken.
1268
01:18:56,834 --> 01:19:00,585
Maybe an anthology of critical
reviews might have been rewarding, but
1269
01:19:01,477 --> 01:19:05,030
after all this is supposed to
be my voice on the subject, so
1270
01:19:05,676 --> 01:19:07,334
that's what you've had.
1271
01:19:08,294 --> 01:19:11,186
I've tried to be as candid as I can.
1272
01:19:12,522 --> 01:19:15,221
You won't have expected
me to be objective.
1273
01:19:16,417 --> 01:19:19,945
I started by calling
this a conversation,
1274
01:19:19,995 --> 01:19:24,795
but I'm afraid what you've had most is
a scrambled, disjointed series of notes.
1275
01:19:24,845 --> 01:19:27,076
I've been coming at
our subject from every
1276
01:19:27,126 --> 01:19:29,476
conceivable direction of the compass,
1277
01:19:29,697 --> 01:19:33,197
There might have been a better
shape to this if I had relentlessly
1278
01:19:33,247 --> 01:19:35,347
pursued a single theme, but that
1279
01:19:35,764 --> 01:19:39,024
would have neglected all
the other themes. I just don't know.
1280
01:19:39,074 --> 01:19:42,228
Trying to say too much,
I may have said too little.
1281
01:19:44,807 --> 01:19:45,600
Now...
1282
01:19:46,225 --> 01:19:47,317
of course...
1283
01:19:48,318 --> 01:19:51,255
my film did not do justice to the play.
1284
01:19:53,131 --> 01:19:54,728
It is my film and
1285
01:19:55,464 --> 01:19:56,915
Shakespeare's play.
1286
01:19:57,790 --> 01:20:03,637
No film, indeed, no stage production
could ever do true justice to that play.
1287
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:06,942
No actor ever did full
justice to the part.
1288
01:20:07,242 --> 01:20:11,721
I ask myself now, if I've done
justice here in my own movie.
1289
01:20:12,009 --> 01:20:16,800
Talking to you, I don't mean
in the value I may sometimes
1290
01:20:17,050 --> 01:20:20,699
rather coyly have placed upon it.
I just mean this discussion.
1291
01:20:21,469 --> 01:20:23,111
Let's try to sum it up.
1292
01:20:23,569 --> 01:20:25,930
how the picture was made. That story.
1293
01:20:26,589 --> 01:20:30,385
You remember, an Italian producer
dreaming of Verdi's Otello, and
1294
01:20:30,835 --> 01:20:33,924
neglecting to mention
that he was about to go into bankruptcy,
1295
01:20:33,974 --> 01:20:37,293
stranded our whole company in
a small town off the coast of Africa.
1296
01:20:37,343 --> 01:20:39,830
With a little money of my own,
all I had and absolutely
1297
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:43,419
no costumes whatsoever,
we improvised our way for awhile,
1298
01:20:43,469 --> 01:20:47,142
and had to stop for awhile and I had to
go to work as an actor in other films,
1299
01:20:47,192 --> 01:20:50,597
earning money enough to continue
with my own and that went on and on,
1300
01:20:50,647 --> 01:20:53,542
and repeated itself several times,
and it meant
1301
01:20:53,897 --> 01:20:57,397
that Othello was made so to speak,
on the installment plan.
1302
01:20:58,666 --> 01:21:03,088
This and other circumstances did impose
a method and a style of shooting,
1303
01:21:03,138 --> 01:21:06,256
which was contrary to what
had been carefully planned.
1304
01:21:06,306 --> 01:21:09,102
And for a description
of the finished result,
1305
01:21:10,246 --> 01:21:13,767
I've drawn tonight on a few of
those critical appreciations, which
1306
01:21:13,817 --> 01:21:17,076
correspond fairly
closely to my own ideas.
1307
01:21:17,659 --> 01:21:19,568
Some thoughts on the interpretation
1308
01:21:19,618 --> 01:21:22,562
have come from a couple of the leading
actors, with some additions of my own.
1309
01:21:22,612 --> 01:21:25,689
All judgments having been avoided,
1310
01:21:28,703 --> 01:21:30,862
I leave you with this confession.
1311
01:21:32,094 --> 01:21:35,900
This hasn't been as easy
as I could have wished.
1312
01:21:38,291 --> 01:21:40,141
There are too many regrets,
1313
01:21:41,266 --> 01:21:42,522
too many things
1314
01:21:43,369 --> 01:21:46,269
I wish I could have done over again.
1315
01:21:47,671 --> 01:21:51,277
If it wasn't a memory,
if it was a project for the future,
1316
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:55,299
talking about Othello would've
been nothing but delight.
1317
01:21:55,507 --> 01:21:58,235
Promises are more fun than explanations.
1318
01:21:59,759 --> 01:22:01,926
With all my heart, I wish that
1319
01:22:03,301 --> 01:22:05,453
I wasn't looking back on Othello,
1320
01:22:07,303 --> 01:22:09,095
but looking forward to it.
1321
01:22:11,749 --> 01:22:12,916
That Othello
1322
01:22:14,193 --> 01:22:16,415
would be one hell of a picture.
1323
01:22:37,192 --> 01:22:38,192
Goodnight.
1324
01:22:49,028 --> 01:22:51,028
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