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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:09,584 --> 00:00:13,751 (Hitler speaking foreign language) 2 00:00:23,867 --> 00:00:26,534 (crowd roaring) 3 00:00:42,447 --> 00:00:44,671 - Property rights are an important portion 4 00:00:44,671 --> 00:00:47,091 of civilized society. 5 00:00:47,091 --> 00:00:50,924 (overlapping voices speaking) 6 00:01:00,455 --> 00:01:01,452 - [Narrator] The Gurlitt Affair 7 00:01:01,452 --> 00:01:03,394 gave worldwide prominence to the still discreet history 8 00:01:03,394 --> 00:01:06,055 of Nazi looted works of art. 9 00:01:06,055 --> 00:01:08,250 1,500 canvases were found buried 10 00:01:08,250 --> 00:01:10,492 in a Munich apartment, among them were works 11 00:01:10,492 --> 00:01:12,775 by Matisse, Chagall, and Renoir. 12 00:01:12,775 --> 00:01:14,547 - [Interpreter] The story made the subject 13 00:01:14,547 --> 00:01:17,154 of the hidden, stolen, and looted works of art 14 00:01:17,154 --> 00:01:19,932 seem like some sort of mini-drama, 15 00:01:19,932 --> 00:01:22,194 like a riveting detective story, 16 00:01:22,194 --> 00:01:24,354 whereas in fact, it was part of a whole process 17 00:01:24,354 --> 00:01:28,594 of dehumanization and deculturalization of Europe. 18 00:01:28,594 --> 00:01:29,874 - [Narrator] The Bern Museum of Fine Arts 19 00:01:29,874 --> 00:01:32,092 was designated custodian of what was called 20 00:01:32,092 --> 00:01:33,554 the Gurlitt Collection. 21 00:01:33,554 --> 00:01:35,372 It is now therefore up to the museum 22 00:01:35,372 --> 00:01:36,732 to reveal what happened to the works 23 00:01:36,732 --> 00:01:40,775 and to restore them to their legitimate owners. 24 00:01:40,775 --> 00:01:43,175 Amidst the history of betrayal, power, money, 25 00:01:43,175 --> 00:01:44,551 and fascination for art, 26 00:01:44,551 --> 00:01:47,394 Hitler had also undertaken a Nazification of Europe 27 00:01:47,394 --> 00:01:49,212 through an art genocide. 28 00:01:49,212 --> 00:01:52,514 (crowd roaring) 29 00:01:52,514 --> 00:01:56,097 (light instrumental music) 30 00:02:04,092 --> 00:02:05,110 The looting of works 31 00:02:05,110 --> 00:02:06,812 is one of the last unresolved outcomes 32 00:02:06,812 --> 00:02:08,311 of the Second World War. 33 00:02:08,311 --> 00:02:10,796 100,000 works of art were stolen, 34 00:02:10,796 --> 00:02:14,135 and one million books were destroyed in France alone. 35 00:02:14,135 --> 00:02:15,714 This is the story of three works of art, 36 00:02:15,714 --> 00:02:17,154 three major paintings stolen 37 00:02:17,154 --> 00:02:19,436 from three leading European collectors. 38 00:02:19,436 --> 00:02:23,074 The Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace by Henri Matisse, 39 00:02:23,074 --> 00:02:25,671 belonging to Paul Rosenberg, 40 00:02:25,671 --> 00:02:28,348 Wilted Sunflowers, also known as Autumn Sun II, 41 00:02:28,348 --> 00:02:32,108 by Egon Schiele, owned by Austrian collector Karl Grunwald, 42 00:02:32,108 --> 00:02:34,230 and Man with a Guitar by Georges Braque, 43 00:02:34,230 --> 00:02:36,428 belonging to Alphonse Kann. 44 00:02:36,428 --> 00:02:37,991 Three works symbolizing the genre of modern art 45 00:02:37,991 --> 00:02:41,308 qualified by the Nazis as a degenerate art, 46 00:02:41,308 --> 00:02:43,055 the art that Hitler took upon himself 47 00:02:43,055 --> 00:02:44,401 to totally eradicate in the name 48 00:02:44,401 --> 00:02:46,092 of purification of culture, 49 00:02:46,092 --> 00:02:47,090 whilst at the same time, 50 00:02:47,090 --> 00:02:49,708 using it as a form of currency. 51 00:02:49,708 --> 00:02:54,113 - The way that they would use the looted art was important. 52 00:02:54,113 --> 00:02:56,028 I think you had categories, 53 00:02:56,028 --> 00:02:57,952 like everything in Nazism. 54 00:02:57,952 --> 00:03:01,495 You had the good art, which was classical art. 55 00:03:01,495 --> 00:03:05,351 It would go either to Hitler's collection 56 00:03:05,351 --> 00:03:08,018 to the German museum collections 57 00:03:09,132 --> 00:03:11,831 or to Goring's collection. 58 00:03:11,831 --> 00:03:13,511 Then you had another type of art 59 00:03:13,511 --> 00:03:16,871 like Impressionism that could go 60 00:03:16,871 --> 00:03:18,450 to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 61 00:03:18,450 --> 00:03:20,849 the embassies, the German embassies, 62 00:03:20,849 --> 00:03:23,212 and then you had degenerate art. 63 00:03:23,212 --> 00:03:27,379 Degenerate art was the pieces that would allow them, 64 00:03:28,386 --> 00:03:32,092 like the Picassos, the Matisse, to barter them 65 00:03:32,092 --> 00:03:34,032 here in the Paris art market 66 00:03:34,032 --> 00:03:36,215 and to sell them away. 67 00:03:36,215 --> 00:03:37,212 - [Interpreter] Even if this type of art 68 00:03:37,212 --> 00:03:39,634 was not appreciated and was publicly denigrated 69 00:03:39,634 --> 00:03:42,391 by the Nazi regime, they were perfectly aware 70 00:03:42,391 --> 00:03:45,751 that it represented a vast financial aspect, 71 00:03:45,751 --> 00:03:48,455 and that these works could not be destroyed, 72 00:03:48,455 --> 00:03:49,848 that it was better to trade them 73 00:03:49,848 --> 00:03:52,598 and contribute to the war effort. 74 00:03:56,594 --> 00:03:58,892 - [Hector] Degenerate art, is to him, 75 00:03:58,892 --> 00:04:02,572 the art that comes out of degenerate minds, 76 00:04:02,572 --> 00:04:06,652 and he talks specifically about Cubism, 77 00:04:06,652 --> 00:04:08,652 Surrealism, and Dadaism. 78 00:04:12,652 --> 00:04:16,819 How can someone like Michelangelo or the Mona Lisa, 79 00:04:17,874 --> 00:04:22,041 and at the same time, can create and invent the Holocaust? 80 00:04:25,436 --> 00:04:29,103 (somber instrumental music) 81 00:04:30,635 --> 00:04:32,695 - [Narrator] Many art collectors in Paris were Jewish, 82 00:04:32,695 --> 00:04:37,296 and were therefore targeted as a priority for looting. 83 00:04:37,296 --> 00:04:38,658 Before and after the war, 84 00:04:38,658 --> 00:04:41,495 the French capital was the hub of the art market. 85 00:04:41,495 --> 00:04:44,156 Alphonse Kann was a prominent English art collector 86 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:45,616 living in Paris. 87 00:04:45,616 --> 00:04:47,312 His collections featured Georges Braque's 88 00:04:47,312 --> 00:04:49,232 Man with a Guitar, a major painting 89 00:04:49,232 --> 00:04:51,676 and a founding work of Cubism. 90 00:04:51,676 --> 00:04:54,509 By 1940, Kann had fled to England. 91 00:04:58,476 --> 00:05:00,855 (whistle blowing) 92 00:05:00,855 --> 00:05:03,653 - [Interpreter] Alphonse Kann was an elegant dandy, 93 00:05:03,653 --> 00:05:05,676 a banker and an art collector 94 00:05:05,676 --> 00:05:08,236 who had started out collecting old paintings, 95 00:05:08,236 --> 00:05:12,316 pre-Columbian and African objects of art and furniture. 96 00:05:12,316 --> 00:05:16,834 His taste in art was very eclectic and very accurate. 97 00:05:16,834 --> 00:05:18,194 - [Interpreter] He was a rather amazing man. 98 00:05:18,194 --> 00:05:20,135 He was fascinated by modern art 99 00:05:20,135 --> 00:05:23,458 from 1910 to 1915 after the war, 100 00:05:23,458 --> 00:05:25,175 just after the First World War, 101 00:05:25,175 --> 00:05:27,575 and started buying it. 102 00:05:27,575 --> 00:05:30,075 (light music) 103 00:05:33,276 --> 00:05:35,996 - [Interpreter] Alphonse Kann bought unprecedented volumes 104 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:39,231 of pure Cubist Picassos with great determination. 105 00:05:39,231 --> 00:05:41,815 He knew full well that they were extremely difficult works, 106 00:05:41,815 --> 00:05:45,982 and that the general public did not understand them. 107 00:05:47,794 --> 00:05:50,627 (whistle blowing) 108 00:05:52,034 --> 00:05:53,618 - [Interpreter] At the time of the occupation, 109 00:05:53,618 --> 00:05:55,815 the German Special Services arrived. 110 00:05:55,815 --> 00:05:58,593 If necessary, the French police helped out 111 00:05:58,593 --> 00:06:01,296 because let's face it, it was in the middle 112 00:06:01,296 --> 00:06:03,474 of the collaboration. 113 00:06:03,474 --> 00:06:06,055 Kann had left for England a couple of years before, 114 00:06:06,055 --> 00:06:10,055 and his house in St.-Germain-en-Laye was looted. 115 00:06:11,255 --> 00:06:15,005 It was early October 1940 right at the start. 116 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:21,634 - In Germany before the war started, 117 00:06:21,634 --> 00:06:24,716 they had already established a list of the objects 118 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:26,252 that they may want. 119 00:06:26,252 --> 00:06:30,150 From the very first day of the occupation in June 1940, 120 00:06:30,150 --> 00:06:31,474 the occupation of Paris, 121 00:06:31,474 --> 00:06:35,495 they started looting objects from the very first day, 122 00:06:35,495 --> 00:06:37,912 looting galleries especially. 123 00:06:41,436 --> 00:06:43,436 - [Narrator] The lists mentioned Paul Rosenberg, 124 00:06:43,436 --> 00:06:46,629 a key figure in the Parisian art market. 125 00:06:46,629 --> 00:06:48,674 In early 1940, he fled the French capital 126 00:06:48,674 --> 00:06:52,151 for southwest France in a bid to seek shelter for his family 127 00:06:52,151 --> 00:06:53,874 and his most important works, 128 00:06:53,874 --> 00:06:58,231 among them Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace by Matisse. 129 00:06:58,231 --> 00:07:01,036 As Rosenberg's collection was so reputed and well-known, 130 00:07:01,036 --> 00:07:04,010 the collector was a priority target for the Nazis. 131 00:07:04,010 --> 00:07:05,335 His family gallery featured works 132 00:07:05,335 --> 00:07:07,794 by major Impressionists alongside masterpieces 133 00:07:07,794 --> 00:07:08,961 of modern art. 134 00:07:11,218 --> 00:07:13,335 - [Interpreter] Paul Rosenberg forged dealer 135 00:07:13,335 --> 00:07:15,794 and friendship bonds with Picasso, 136 00:07:15,794 --> 00:07:17,778 Braque, and Matisse. 137 00:07:17,778 --> 00:07:20,178 - When you have great art dealers, 138 00:07:20,178 --> 00:07:24,119 they will be helping artists develop their careers, 139 00:07:24,119 --> 00:07:27,879 and this is what happened with Paul Rosenberg. 140 00:07:27,879 --> 00:07:28,978 - [Interpreter] It wasn't simply a case of him 141 00:07:28,978 --> 00:07:31,078 just commissioning and selling. 142 00:07:31,078 --> 00:07:33,138 He didn't just trade. 143 00:07:33,138 --> 00:07:35,298 He was perhaps also an impresario. 144 00:07:35,298 --> 00:07:37,618 He promoted them and accompanied them, 145 00:07:37,618 --> 00:07:38,658 and he also commissioned works. 146 00:07:38,658 --> 00:07:40,591 He followed them. 147 00:07:40,591 --> 00:07:44,818 - This is an art dealer who dealt with Picasso, 148 00:07:44,818 --> 00:07:46,913 Mattise, Braque, and Leger. 149 00:07:46,913 --> 00:07:49,538 In the 20s and 30s, this is man 150 00:07:49,538 --> 00:07:52,788 who was controlling part of modern art. 151 00:07:53,735 --> 00:07:55,415 - [Narrator] In 1939 in Lucerne, 152 00:07:55,415 --> 00:07:58,476 the Nazis organized a major sale of degenerate art 153 00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:00,556 that had been looted from German museums. 154 00:08:00,556 --> 00:08:04,723 All profits from the sale were poured into the war effort. 155 00:08:06,295 --> 00:08:07,777 - [Interpreter] Collectors and museum directors 156 00:08:07,777 --> 00:08:10,411 from all over the world flocked to the sale 157 00:08:10,411 --> 00:08:13,255 because magnificent works were put on the market 158 00:08:13,255 --> 00:08:15,355 at unbeatable prices. 159 00:08:15,355 --> 00:08:17,153 It attracted huge crowds, 160 00:08:17,153 --> 00:08:20,956 but my grandfather said he wouldn't buy any of the works. 161 00:08:20,956 --> 00:08:23,153 He wouldn't give a single coin to the Nazis 162 00:08:23,153 --> 00:08:25,596 as he said the money would fall back down upon them 163 00:08:25,596 --> 00:08:27,346 in the form of bombs. 164 00:08:30,135 --> 00:08:34,177 So he was identified as being refractory to the Nazis 165 00:08:34,177 --> 00:08:35,844 and was blacklisted. 166 00:08:38,038 --> 00:08:40,193 This resulted in him closing his gallery, 167 00:08:40,193 --> 00:08:43,193 and they retreated to near Bordeaux. 168 00:08:46,236 --> 00:08:47,815 But interestingly, the illusion 169 00:08:47,815 --> 00:08:49,752 that we could go back to Paris 170 00:08:49,752 --> 00:08:53,252 to open the gallery again was still there. 171 00:08:54,135 --> 00:08:56,236 He wrote to Matisse saying, 172 00:08:56,236 --> 00:09:00,556 you'll see, I'll return to Paris in April or May. 173 00:09:00,556 --> 00:09:02,177 He thought he would open the gallery again 174 00:09:02,177 --> 00:09:06,344 in April or May of 1940 and put on a fantastic exhibition. 175 00:09:07,596 --> 00:09:11,655 (man speaking foreign language) 176 00:09:11,655 --> 00:09:16,017 - In the beginning, almost none of the collectors, 177 00:09:16,017 --> 00:09:19,137 the Rothschilds, the Rosenbergs, the Kanns, 178 00:09:19,137 --> 00:09:23,036 they never thought that there could be looting 179 00:09:23,036 --> 00:09:26,876 during the war, this type of methodical, systematic looting. 180 00:09:26,876 --> 00:09:28,535 This was unthinkable, 181 00:09:28,535 --> 00:09:31,356 so they wanted to protect it, perhaps, 182 00:09:31,356 --> 00:09:35,273 from the havoc of war, from the soldier of war. 183 00:09:38,853 --> 00:09:41,130 - [Interpreter] He had a lot of his paintings 184 00:09:41,130 --> 00:09:44,168 brought to southwest France near Bordeaux. 185 00:09:44,168 --> 00:09:46,373 He hired a vault at the BNCI, 186 00:09:46,373 --> 00:09:49,973 the French national bank for trade and industry 187 00:09:49,973 --> 00:09:52,168 which had a secured vault in Libourne 188 00:09:52,168 --> 00:09:54,356 saying they'll be safe here. 189 00:09:54,356 --> 00:09:58,523 Braque, who visited him, hired the vault next to his. 190 00:10:01,390 --> 00:10:02,415 - [Narrator] At the time, Libourne 191 00:10:02,415 --> 00:10:03,754 was in the occupied zone, 192 00:10:03,754 --> 00:10:08,194 and persecution against Jews were increasingly frequent. 193 00:10:08,194 --> 00:10:11,535 - [Hector] Over there, he will have to leave very quickly, 194 00:10:11,535 --> 00:10:14,911 but he left behind many many things. 195 00:10:14,911 --> 00:10:16,933 - [Interpreter] Then my grandfather, grandmother, 196 00:10:16,933 --> 00:10:19,653 and mother, families were torn apart, 197 00:10:19,653 --> 00:10:21,893 crossed the border at Hendaye 198 00:10:21,893 --> 00:10:24,293 to flee across Spain to Portugal. 199 00:10:24,293 --> 00:10:26,677 Miraculously, they were able to get away, 200 00:10:26,677 --> 00:10:29,434 take the boat in the middle of the mines and submarines 201 00:10:29,434 --> 00:10:31,653 and reach America. 202 00:10:31,653 --> 00:10:35,320 (somber instrumental music) 203 00:10:47,969 --> 00:10:50,853 Paul Rosenberg attracted feelings jealousy, 204 00:10:50,853 --> 00:10:54,186 so certain intermediaries denounced him. 205 00:10:56,850 --> 00:10:59,017 - There were people who wanted to negotiate, 206 00:10:59,017 --> 00:11:03,013 who wanted to have either a percentage of it, a commission. 207 00:11:03,013 --> 00:11:06,309 In kind, they would be receiving paintings 208 00:11:06,309 --> 00:11:09,248 from the Rosenberg collection in exchange 209 00:11:09,248 --> 00:11:11,081 for their information. 210 00:11:12,369 --> 00:11:16,123 - [Interpreter] In 1941, the Nazis, the Gestapo, 211 00:11:16,123 --> 00:11:19,147 helped by the French authorities 212 00:11:19,147 --> 00:11:23,565 forced the bank's vaults and plundered their contents. 213 00:11:23,565 --> 00:11:27,732 They looted my grandfather's vault and Braque's too. 214 00:11:30,086 --> 00:11:33,089 On the 5th of September 1941, 215 00:11:33,089 --> 00:11:35,109 Paul Rosenberg's collection and stock 216 00:11:35,109 --> 00:11:38,776 were transferred to the Jeu de Paume Museum. 217 00:11:43,766 --> 00:11:45,868 - [Narrator] Hermann Goring, number two at the Reich 218 00:11:45,868 --> 00:11:47,446 and head of the Luftwaffe, 219 00:11:47,446 --> 00:11:48,827 used the Jeu de Paume Museum 220 00:11:48,827 --> 00:11:51,327 to store all the stolen works. 221 00:11:53,308 --> 00:11:55,990 Here in late 1941, Alphonse Kann's 222 00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:57,686 Braque Man with a Guitar 223 00:11:57,686 --> 00:12:00,150 and Paul Rosenberg's Matisse Woman in Blue 224 00:12:00,150 --> 00:12:01,446 in Front of a Fireplace 225 00:12:01,446 --> 00:12:04,613 lay within a few meters of each other. 226 00:12:06,646 --> 00:12:08,348 To transfer the thousands of stolen works 227 00:12:08,348 --> 00:12:09,846 to the Jeu de Paume Museum, 228 00:12:09,846 --> 00:12:12,148 Goring used the services of the E.R.R., 229 00:12:12,148 --> 00:12:13,969 the official looting body. 230 00:12:13,969 --> 00:12:18,136 (Goring speaking foreign language) 231 00:12:21,505 --> 00:12:24,326 - [Interpreter] Goring took the E.R.R. under his wing, 232 00:12:24,326 --> 00:12:26,289 and this made transport and workforce 233 00:12:26,289 --> 00:12:30,456 available to the E.R.R. to regularly send things to Germany. 234 00:12:33,073 --> 00:12:35,823 (train chugging) 235 00:12:40,353 --> 00:12:42,891 - [Interpreter] Goring had his own personal train. 236 00:12:42,891 --> 00:12:44,913 The entire last wagon was used as a warehouse 237 00:12:44,913 --> 00:12:46,854 for looted works of art. 238 00:12:46,854 --> 00:12:48,352 He spent a large part of his time 239 00:12:48,352 --> 00:12:50,774 seeking masterpieces throughout Europe 240 00:12:50,774 --> 00:12:52,192 that could be looted from families 241 00:12:52,192 --> 00:12:56,359 and compiled into a vast personal collection at his home. 242 00:13:11,562 --> 00:13:13,764 - [Narrator] As grandmaster of this villainous chess game, 243 00:13:13,764 --> 00:13:15,423 Hermann Goring claimed all rights 244 00:13:15,423 --> 00:13:18,362 over the destiny of the stolen works. 245 00:13:18,362 --> 00:13:21,700 Man With a Guitar and Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace 246 00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:23,722 transited via his personal networks 247 00:13:23,722 --> 00:13:27,222 that also supplied his private collection. 248 00:13:28,820 --> 00:13:31,011 - [Interpreter] I'm just discovering these photographs. 249 00:13:31,011 --> 00:13:32,594 They're incredible. 250 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,467 Goring has just visited the Jeu de Paume Museum, 251 00:13:37,467 --> 00:13:39,365 where the works that were plundered and looted 252 00:13:39,365 --> 00:13:42,448 from the Jewish families were stored. 253 00:13:49,707 --> 00:13:51,563 Goring visited the Jeu de Paume Museum 254 00:13:51,563 --> 00:13:53,313 on over 20 occasions. 255 00:13:55,524 --> 00:13:56,864 - [Interpreter] In November '42, 256 00:13:56,864 --> 00:14:00,181 February '41, March '41, April '41, 257 00:14:00,181 --> 00:14:03,383 May '41, July '41, August '41, 258 00:14:03,383 --> 00:14:07,221 December '41, February '42, March '42, 259 00:14:07,221 --> 00:14:10,054 14th of May '42, and November '42. 260 00:14:10,924 --> 00:14:12,641 It's quite astonishing. 261 00:14:12,641 --> 00:14:14,204 The man spent his life there. 262 00:14:14,204 --> 00:14:15,820 He would visit incognito. 263 00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:20,100 Goring, that horrible character, liked degenerate art. 264 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,140 He had a room reserved for it, 265 00:14:22,140 --> 00:14:23,964 referred to as the Martyr Room 266 00:14:23,964 --> 00:14:27,804 where all the canvases he was interested in were exhibited, 267 00:14:27,804 --> 00:14:30,887 and he helped himself freely from it. 268 00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:34,503 - [Interpreter] This is a photograph 269 00:14:34,503 --> 00:14:37,732 of the Martyr Room, and in this room, 270 00:14:37,732 --> 00:14:39,948 hanging from floor to ceiling, 271 00:14:39,948 --> 00:14:41,284 are all the works considered 272 00:14:41,284 --> 00:14:43,867 as belonging to degenerate art. 273 00:14:46,846 --> 00:14:51,728 We can recognize works by Chagall, Matisse, Picasso, 274 00:14:51,728 --> 00:14:55,895 numerous works by Dali, Fernand Leger, and Torres Garcia. 275 00:14:57,430 --> 00:14:58,428 - [Interpreter] According to us, 276 00:14:58,428 --> 00:14:59,830 that's the Braque there. 277 00:14:59,830 --> 00:15:01,508 You can see the composition and the size 278 00:15:01,508 --> 00:15:04,841 because it's a tall and narrow painting. 279 00:15:06,266 --> 00:15:09,766 (soft instrumental music) 280 00:15:11,185 --> 00:15:12,588 - [Narrator] The Jeu de Paume became the hub 281 00:15:12,588 --> 00:15:16,171 of Nazi looted art and its parallel market. 282 00:15:17,068 --> 00:15:18,805 One young museum employee risked her life 283 00:15:18,805 --> 00:15:20,726 in tracking and registering the traceability 284 00:15:20,726 --> 00:15:22,143 of the paintings. 285 00:15:23,068 --> 00:15:24,465 She was to play a key role 286 00:15:24,465 --> 00:15:26,798 in the post war restitution. 287 00:15:27,932 --> 00:15:30,288 - [Interpreter] Jaujard, the owner of the Louvre, 288 00:15:30,288 --> 00:15:32,925 asked Rose Valland, a young woman 289 00:15:32,925 --> 00:15:34,684 from a very modest background, 290 00:15:34,684 --> 00:15:38,321 to be on site and to witness what the Nazis were doing. 291 00:15:38,321 --> 00:15:40,571 She was to play a key role. 292 00:15:43,728 --> 00:15:45,905 - [Interpreter] She observed and rummaged in the bins 293 00:15:45,905 --> 00:15:50,072 to obtain duplicates of everything that was written down. 294 00:15:51,622 --> 00:15:52,961 She tried to obtain the addresses 295 00:15:52,961 --> 00:15:55,521 of the looted collectors. 296 00:15:55,521 --> 00:15:57,867 At night in the arrangerie, she would jot down 297 00:15:57,867 --> 00:16:00,178 in her little notebooks summaries of all the works 298 00:16:00,178 --> 00:16:02,604 she'd seen, where they came from, 299 00:16:02,604 --> 00:16:06,241 and where they were going as far as she knew. 300 00:16:06,241 --> 00:16:08,481 After the liberation, this proved to be a gold mine 301 00:16:08,481 --> 00:16:11,648 for the French museums and collectors. 302 00:16:14,502 --> 00:16:17,025 Rose Valland flagged that this painting of Braque's 303 00:16:17,025 --> 00:16:19,004 was going to be exchanged. 304 00:16:19,004 --> 00:16:21,265 We have the exchange documents. 305 00:16:21,265 --> 00:16:23,959 The document can be found in the archives of the Louvre, 306 00:16:23,959 --> 00:16:26,044 and the same document exists in the archives 307 00:16:26,044 --> 00:16:27,794 of the Musee D'Orsay. 308 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,600 - [Interpreter] It's very interesting to see 309 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,641 the correlation between the exchanges 310 00:16:32,641 --> 00:16:36,225 that Rose Valland noted down during this period 311 00:16:36,225 --> 00:16:38,342 and Goring's visits. 312 00:16:38,342 --> 00:16:41,241 For example, the exchange that interests us 313 00:16:41,241 --> 00:16:44,185 took place in February 1942, 314 00:16:44,185 --> 00:16:48,352 and Goring was there on the 25th of February 1942. 315 00:16:50,145 --> 00:16:54,305 We found the Braque Man with a Guitar, Item 1062, 316 00:16:54,305 --> 00:16:57,472 with the reference HG, Hermann Goring. 317 00:16:59,241 --> 00:17:02,741 So, Man With a Guitar disappeared in 1942. 318 00:17:03,905 --> 00:17:07,488 (tense instrumental music) 319 00:17:15,185 --> 00:17:16,182 - [Narrator] Like the Braque, 320 00:17:16,182 --> 00:17:18,465 Matisse's Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace 321 00:17:18,465 --> 00:17:20,721 was also exchanged. 322 00:17:20,721 --> 00:17:22,820 It was part of a batch of four Matisse paintings 323 00:17:22,820 --> 00:17:25,345 that Goring exchanged with a collaborator art dealer 324 00:17:25,345 --> 00:17:27,484 for a Jan Brueghel painting. 325 00:17:27,484 --> 00:17:31,067 (tense instrumental music) 326 00:17:34,842 --> 00:17:37,324 - [Interpreter] Here we see that a member of the E.R.R., 327 00:17:37,324 --> 00:17:39,962 the body dedicated to the looting of art, 328 00:17:39,962 --> 00:17:43,641 is getting ready to serve him a glass of champagne, 329 00:17:43,641 --> 00:17:45,164 and the work he is holding 330 00:17:45,164 --> 00:17:48,414 is the Port of Antwerp by Jan Brueghel. 331 00:17:51,401 --> 00:17:53,656 Goring is sealing the agreement 332 00:17:53,656 --> 00:17:56,604 which is to recover the Jan Brueghel 333 00:17:56,604 --> 00:17:58,705 and to exchange with the art dealer 334 00:17:58,705 --> 00:18:02,788 the four Matisse looted from the Jewish families. 335 00:18:07,382 --> 00:18:09,248 - [Hector] The state of the art market 336 00:18:09,248 --> 00:18:10,741 in Paris during the war, 337 00:18:10,741 --> 00:18:14,200 I realize that it was a very lively place. 338 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:15,862 - [Interpreter] They operated in a network. 339 00:18:15,862 --> 00:18:18,604 It was an illegal market, a parallel market. 340 00:18:18,604 --> 00:18:22,145 They operated a network and subsidiaries emerged. 341 00:18:22,145 --> 00:18:25,478 - There were auctions at war constantly. 342 00:18:26,601 --> 00:18:28,545 Many art dealers were open, 343 00:18:28,545 --> 00:18:31,542 which meant a lot of collaboration, 344 00:18:31,542 --> 00:18:36,318 of course, naturally, it has to mean collaboration. 345 00:18:36,318 --> 00:18:38,199 - [Interpreter] Everybody, everybody, 346 00:18:38,199 --> 00:18:39,564 I say that in all honesty, 347 00:18:39,564 --> 00:18:42,465 including French gallery owners during the occupation, 348 00:18:42,465 --> 00:18:45,465 everybody profited from the looting. 349 00:18:46,945 --> 00:18:49,244 On October the 31st, 1942, 350 00:18:49,244 --> 00:18:51,942 we can read sale of assets of Israeli Khann, 351 00:18:51,942 --> 00:18:53,505 three days of sales. 352 00:18:53,505 --> 00:18:56,684 The Gazette of the Hotel Drouot auctioning house 353 00:18:56,684 --> 00:18:58,465 three days of sales. 354 00:18:58,465 --> 00:19:01,105 Do you know what three days of sales represents? 355 00:19:01,105 --> 00:19:05,272 Hundreds of canvases, and that's just the French part. 356 00:19:10,203 --> 00:19:11,964 - [Narrator] The two Braque and Matisse canvases 357 00:19:11,964 --> 00:19:14,742 that were stolen from Alphonse Kann and Paul Rosenberg 358 00:19:14,742 --> 00:19:17,161 disappeared into the parallel market. 359 00:19:17,161 --> 00:19:21,328 The Nazis carried on plundering European art heritage. 360 00:19:26,519 --> 00:19:29,465 - The same message that they apply, 361 00:19:29,465 --> 00:19:33,632 let's say to bring in people from Paris to Auschwitz, 362 00:19:34,849 --> 00:19:36,705 you know by using trains, 363 00:19:36,705 --> 00:19:39,872 by using cattle trains, cattle wagons, 364 00:19:41,084 --> 00:19:43,667 we have to put it as an analogy 365 00:19:44,684 --> 00:19:46,945 in how they did the looting. 366 00:19:46,945 --> 00:19:49,707 I think it was more or less the same method 367 00:19:49,707 --> 00:19:51,025 that was applied. 368 00:19:51,025 --> 00:19:54,692 (somber instrumental music) 369 00:19:55,824 --> 00:19:57,201 - [Narrator] Throughout Europe, 370 00:19:57,201 --> 00:20:00,465 the Nazis used an industrialized system for looting. 371 00:20:00,465 --> 00:20:04,001 It was designed to let no work escape. 372 00:20:04,001 --> 00:20:06,542 In 1942 in Austria, the enlightened collector 373 00:20:06,542 --> 00:20:08,225 Karl Grunwald fled the country 374 00:20:08,225 --> 00:20:11,265 with a few of his works including Wilted Sunflowers 375 00:20:11,265 --> 00:20:12,598 by Egon Schiele. 376 00:20:15,113 --> 00:20:17,903 - [Interpreter] Karl Grunwald managed to remove from Austria 377 00:20:17,903 --> 00:20:20,302 a large share of the paintings 378 00:20:20,302 --> 00:20:22,523 he was most fond of by declaring them 379 00:20:22,523 --> 00:20:25,368 to be of lower value than they really were, 380 00:20:25,368 --> 00:20:27,285 so that nobody was interested in the works 381 00:20:27,285 --> 00:20:28,702 he had collected. 382 00:20:30,824 --> 00:20:32,744 He had them transported to Strasbourg 383 00:20:32,744 --> 00:20:35,744 where he placed them in a warehouse. 384 00:20:36,808 --> 00:20:38,168 - [Interpreter] He himself had managed to obtain 385 00:20:38,168 --> 00:20:40,787 and to buy a visa to leave Austria. 386 00:20:40,787 --> 00:20:43,070 He hoped to reach the US by crossing France 387 00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:46,168 and leaving from Spain, but the rest of the family 388 00:20:46,168 --> 00:20:48,566 did not manage to buy visas in time 389 00:20:48,566 --> 00:20:50,066 and were deported. 390 00:20:50,945 --> 00:20:55,708 (Melissa speaking foreign language) 391 00:20:55,708 --> 00:20:57,724 - [Interpreter] Unfortunately, when Karl Grunwald 392 00:20:57,724 --> 00:21:00,164 had to leave France, he no longer had access 393 00:21:00,164 --> 00:21:03,345 to the warehouse, and in order to save his own life, 394 00:21:03,345 --> 00:21:06,646 had to leave the paintings behind in France. 395 00:21:06,646 --> 00:21:10,024 He managed to flee the country. 396 00:21:10,024 --> 00:21:12,469 Originally, he thought he could head straight for New York, 397 00:21:12,469 --> 00:21:15,523 but he first had to travel via Morocco, 398 00:21:15,523 --> 00:21:18,166 where he was detained in very bad conditions 399 00:21:18,166 --> 00:21:20,380 and where he suffered terribly. 400 00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:24,547 (Melissa speaking foreign language) 401 00:21:27,948 --> 00:21:29,281 - [Interpreter] What we knew about Schiele's painting 402 00:21:29,281 --> 00:21:31,126 is that it was up for auction, 403 00:21:31,126 --> 00:21:35,505 organized by the Nazis around 1943 in Strasbourg. 404 00:21:35,505 --> 00:21:38,565 - We don't know whether it was bought, 405 00:21:38,565 --> 00:21:41,065 or whether it remained unsold, 406 00:21:42,103 --> 00:21:45,305 and we just don't know what happened 407 00:21:45,305 --> 00:21:47,055 between 1942 and now. 408 00:21:49,505 --> 00:21:52,065 - [Narrator] In 1943, the three canvases vanished 409 00:21:52,065 --> 00:21:54,848 into the lucrative parallel market. 410 00:21:54,848 --> 00:21:57,465 At the end of the war, the figures were added up. 411 00:21:57,465 --> 00:22:02,428 The Third Reich had plundered over 600,000 works of art. 412 00:22:02,428 --> 00:22:04,505 Karl Grunwald took refuge in New York, 413 00:22:04,505 --> 00:22:05,846 where he remained. 414 00:22:05,846 --> 00:22:08,108 Alphonse Kann stayed in London. 415 00:22:08,108 --> 00:22:10,028 Only Paul Rosenberg returned to Paris 416 00:22:10,028 --> 00:22:12,111 as soon as the war ended. 417 00:22:14,105 --> 00:22:16,731 - [Interpreter] When my grandfather arrived in 1945, 418 00:22:16,731 --> 00:22:19,569 he started to search for his paintings, 419 00:22:19,569 --> 00:22:21,652 and people began to talk. 420 00:22:24,809 --> 00:22:26,689 I would've liked my grandfather, perhaps, 421 00:22:26,689 --> 00:22:30,689 to take legal action, but in Monte Cristo style, 422 00:22:31,910 --> 00:22:34,250 he said he would take revenge. 423 00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:36,790 He went from gallery to gallery saying, 424 00:22:36,790 --> 00:22:39,590 that's mine, that's mine, and that's mine. 425 00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:41,110 I even think somebody said to him, 426 00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:44,289 ah no, I haven't seen a single of your paintings. 427 00:22:44,289 --> 00:22:46,329 Of course you know if I had seen one of your paintings, 428 00:22:46,329 --> 00:22:47,670 I would've said so. 429 00:22:47,670 --> 00:22:50,049 I would've made sure it was safe, 430 00:22:50,049 --> 00:22:52,870 and my grandfather said, well that one's mine. 431 00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:54,169 Ah, there must be a mistake then, 432 00:22:54,169 --> 00:22:57,510 came the reply, and he gave it back to him. 433 00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:59,449 - The art world was very small at the time. 434 00:22:59,449 --> 00:23:02,588 You knew that such and such a painting 435 00:23:02,588 --> 00:23:04,913 had been at the Paul Rosenberg Gallery. 436 00:23:04,913 --> 00:23:07,473 You may have seen it, someone told you about it, 437 00:23:07,473 --> 00:23:09,030 it's very simple. 438 00:23:09,030 --> 00:23:11,409 - [Interpreter] There was artistic collaboration. 439 00:23:11,409 --> 00:23:12,550 If you wanted to find something, 440 00:23:12,550 --> 00:23:14,913 and if you wanted to trace things back at the time, 441 00:23:14,913 --> 00:23:19,633 all you had to do was look at Paul Rosenberg's catalogs. 442 00:23:19,633 --> 00:23:22,076 The dealers who collaborated during the war 443 00:23:22,076 --> 00:23:24,214 and who made a fortune at the time 444 00:23:24,214 --> 00:23:26,464 pretended they didn't know. 445 00:23:27,516 --> 00:23:30,951 But a dealer by definition knows. 446 00:23:30,951 --> 00:23:34,337 Otherwise, they're just small time antique dealers. 447 00:23:34,337 --> 00:23:37,170 They were clearly being dishonest. 448 00:23:38,177 --> 00:23:39,272 - [Narrator] In the post war years, 449 00:23:39,272 --> 00:23:42,152 the collectors set out in search of their stolen assets 450 00:23:42,152 --> 00:23:44,454 in an international market that was flooded with works 451 00:23:44,454 --> 00:23:46,552 that had had a troubled past. 452 00:23:46,552 --> 00:23:48,513 An artistic recovery commission was established 453 00:23:48,513 --> 00:23:50,430 on November 24th, 1944. 454 00:23:52,433 --> 00:23:55,774 45,400 paintings were identified and returned 455 00:23:55,774 --> 00:23:58,177 via the commission after the war, 456 00:23:58,177 --> 00:24:02,344 but another 50,000 were still missing without a trace. 457 00:24:03,377 --> 00:24:04,433 - [Interpreter] In the 50s and 60s, 458 00:24:04,433 --> 00:24:06,353 those sorts of questions weren't asked. 459 00:24:06,353 --> 00:24:09,996 There was a none memory surrounding the plundering. 460 00:24:09,996 --> 00:24:13,033 When you realize that it was only the historian Paxton 461 00:24:13,033 --> 00:24:15,950 in 1970s who revealed the collusion 462 00:24:16,790 --> 00:24:20,310 of the Vichy regime in the deportations of the Jews, 463 00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:24,497 so 25 or 30 years after the end of the war, 464 00:24:24,497 --> 00:24:26,172 you can imagine that people didn't know 465 00:24:26,172 --> 00:24:28,922 the whereabouts of the paintings. 466 00:24:30,956 --> 00:24:31,974 - [Narrator] Looting of works of art 467 00:24:31,974 --> 00:24:34,236 were nevertheless considered at the Nuremberg Trials 468 00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:35,736 to be a war crime. 469 00:24:37,334 --> 00:24:39,334 Alphonse Kann died in 1948 in London 470 00:24:39,334 --> 00:24:41,948 with nobody knowing if he had managed to recover 471 00:24:41,948 --> 00:24:44,152 Man With a Guitar. 472 00:24:44,152 --> 00:24:46,156 Paul Rosenberg died in 1959 473 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:47,473 not knowing what had become 474 00:24:47,473 --> 00:24:50,476 of Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace. 475 00:24:50,476 --> 00:24:52,876 And Karl Grunwald died in 1964 476 00:24:52,876 --> 00:24:54,318 having asked his son to carry on 477 00:24:54,318 --> 00:24:56,176 searching for Wilted Sunflowers, 478 00:24:56,176 --> 00:24:58,000 his favorite painting. 479 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,500 (light music) 480 00:25:21,082 --> 00:25:23,724 It wasn't until 36 years after the end of the war 481 00:25:23,724 --> 00:25:26,084 that one of the three works reemerged 482 00:25:26,084 --> 00:25:28,703 at a famous French museum. 483 00:25:28,703 --> 00:25:31,023 In 1981, the Pompidou Center was the object 484 00:25:31,023 --> 00:25:33,485 of much media attention following 485 00:25:33,485 --> 00:25:36,586 the spectacular acquisition of Georges Braque's Cubist gem 486 00:25:36,586 --> 00:25:38,086 Man With a Guitar. 487 00:25:38,986 --> 00:25:40,342 At the time, there was no more mention 488 00:25:40,342 --> 00:25:41,759 of Alphonse Kann. 489 00:25:42,924 --> 00:25:44,538 In the 1980s, nobody was interested 490 00:25:44,538 --> 00:25:46,705 in the stories of looting. 491 00:25:48,103 --> 00:25:49,764 It wasn't until the mid-1990s 492 00:25:49,764 --> 00:25:53,306 that the issue of the restitution was finally raised. 493 00:25:53,306 --> 00:25:54,666 The French minister for foreign affairs 494 00:25:54,666 --> 00:25:57,487 decided to open its archives to the public, 495 00:25:57,487 --> 00:26:00,183 and in particular, the E.R.R. report 496 00:26:00,183 --> 00:26:01,903 which detailed the lists and references 497 00:26:01,903 --> 00:26:06,070 of all the works and families that had been looted. 498 00:26:07,485 --> 00:26:09,305 - [Interpreter] One morning in 1996, 499 00:26:09,305 --> 00:26:11,306 a client came to see me. 500 00:26:11,306 --> 00:26:12,946 He was a distant heir of Kann, 501 00:26:12,946 --> 00:26:14,943 and he brought me this. 502 00:26:14,943 --> 00:26:16,985 This E.R.R. report had been given 503 00:26:16,985 --> 00:26:18,783 to each one of the families. 504 00:26:18,783 --> 00:26:20,164 That's exactly how it happened. 505 00:26:20,164 --> 00:26:21,423 I went to the foreign office 506 00:26:21,423 --> 00:26:23,246 and got the E.R.R. list. 507 00:26:23,246 --> 00:26:25,444 Look what I found. 508 00:26:25,444 --> 00:26:27,582 And it was in Beaubourg, sleeping peacefully 509 00:26:27,582 --> 00:26:29,499 on a wall in Beaubourg. 510 00:26:30,703 --> 00:26:32,404 - [Narrator] In 1996, Kann's heirs 511 00:26:32,404 --> 00:26:35,066 asked for the restitution of Man with a Guitar, 512 00:26:35,066 --> 00:26:39,233 a painting looted from their ancestor Alphonse Kann. 513 00:26:42,543 --> 00:26:44,358 - [Interpreter] We made contact with the head of the museum 514 00:26:44,358 --> 00:26:46,362 at the time, Mr. Aillagon, 515 00:26:46,362 --> 00:26:48,042 and we had a rather hard time 516 00:26:48,042 --> 00:26:52,209 because the Beaubourg museum was having none of it. 517 00:26:57,343 --> 00:26:58,701 - [Interpreter] We took a while to react 518 00:26:58,701 --> 00:27:00,543 because we considered that if the work 519 00:27:00,543 --> 00:27:03,804 had indeed be involved with the Nazi's looting policy 520 00:27:03,804 --> 00:27:07,962 at some point, it had reappeared at the end of the war 521 00:27:07,962 --> 00:27:09,463 in conditions that could've led one 522 00:27:09,463 --> 00:27:11,967 to believe that there was a transaction 523 00:27:11,967 --> 00:27:15,300 between Alphonse Kann and Andre Lefebvre. 524 00:27:20,607 --> 00:27:21,764 - [Narrator] Andre Lefebvre was a figure 525 00:27:21,764 --> 00:27:23,887 of the Parisian art market. 526 00:27:23,887 --> 00:27:26,002 The painting reappeared with him after the war. 527 00:27:26,002 --> 00:27:30,164 In other words, after it had been looted. 528 00:27:30,164 --> 00:27:31,167 - [Interpreter] The Pompidou Center 529 00:27:31,167 --> 00:27:34,586 suggested that Andre Lefebvre could have acquired the work 530 00:27:34,586 --> 00:27:36,746 entirely legitimately. 531 00:27:36,746 --> 00:27:40,387 Had it done so, there would've been a trace of that. 532 00:27:40,387 --> 00:27:43,487 Curiously, the archives of Andre Lefebvre 533 00:27:43,487 --> 00:27:46,383 given to the Pompidou Center were very detailed 534 00:27:46,383 --> 00:27:50,724 up until 1939, but from the looting to 1945, 535 00:27:50,724 --> 00:27:52,644 there was nothing. 536 00:27:52,644 --> 00:27:56,144 As chance would have it, they disappeared. 537 00:27:58,506 --> 00:27:59,883 - [Narrator] Nevertheless, Andre Lefebvre 538 00:27:59,883 --> 00:28:01,706 was associated with Man With a Guitar 539 00:28:01,706 --> 00:28:04,426 as soon as the painting reappeared after the war. 540 00:28:04,426 --> 00:28:06,060 He officially lent the work for an exhibition 541 00:28:06,060 --> 00:28:09,477 in Freiburg im Breisgau, Germany in 1948. 542 00:28:12,106 --> 00:28:13,647 - [Interpreter] One might think 543 00:28:13,647 --> 00:28:15,103 that the Frieburg exhibition 544 00:28:15,103 --> 00:28:17,343 was a way to make the painting seem 545 00:28:17,343 --> 00:28:20,489 as though it belonged to Andre Lefebvre, 546 00:28:20,489 --> 00:28:22,656 like a sort of laundering. 547 00:28:24,820 --> 00:28:28,204 The work reappeared belonging to the great collector 548 00:28:28,204 --> 00:28:30,287 and patron Andre Lefebvre. 549 00:28:32,239 --> 00:28:33,242 - [Interpreter] That really implies 550 00:28:33,242 --> 00:28:34,820 the organizers of these exhibitions 551 00:28:34,820 --> 00:28:37,436 had highly perverse intentions. 552 00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:40,383 It really implies they had extremely somber intentions 553 00:28:40,383 --> 00:28:42,585 and supposes that they were engaged 554 00:28:42,585 --> 00:28:46,752 in laundering operations for looted canvases and works. 555 00:28:49,404 --> 00:28:51,322 - [Interpreter] It's unthinkable that Andre Lefebvre 556 00:28:51,322 --> 00:28:54,702 would've acted openly as the owner of the painting 557 00:28:54,702 --> 00:28:56,802 while Alphonse Kann was still alive even 558 00:28:56,802 --> 00:28:59,578 without the existence of an agreement 559 00:28:59,578 --> 00:29:03,380 between Alphonse Kann and Andre Lefebvre. 560 00:29:03,380 --> 00:29:05,103 What was the nature of that agreement? 561 00:29:05,103 --> 00:29:08,079 Was it a sale or an exchange or something else? 562 00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:10,579 There is no trace of it today. 563 00:29:11,828 --> 00:29:14,721 - [Interpreter] There was an article in 1974 564 00:29:14,721 --> 00:29:18,740 in Connaissance des Arts by his godson Jerome Penieux 565 00:29:18,740 --> 00:29:21,720 who often had lunch at Andre Lefebvre's home, 566 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,282 and who himself said that he never knew 567 00:29:24,282 --> 00:29:26,322 where the paintings came from, 568 00:29:26,322 --> 00:29:30,426 and Lefebvre never spoke to him about them. 569 00:29:30,426 --> 00:29:31,423 - [Interpreter] After the war, 570 00:29:31,423 --> 00:29:33,364 Alphonse Kann claimed back a great many works 571 00:29:33,364 --> 00:29:35,052 that belonged to him. 572 00:29:35,052 --> 00:29:37,066 Why did he not claim back that one 573 00:29:37,066 --> 00:29:40,426 when it was one of the most important works he possessed? 574 00:29:40,426 --> 00:29:41,967 You could say, but it's only a theory, 575 00:29:41,967 --> 00:29:43,281 that he considered he'd given the work 576 00:29:43,281 --> 00:29:45,948 to somebody else, Andre Lefebvre. 577 00:29:48,906 --> 00:29:50,164 - [Interpreter] To everything we provided 578 00:29:50,164 --> 00:29:51,567 in the way of documents gave rise 579 00:29:51,567 --> 00:29:54,564 to a we're also going to carry out research, 580 00:29:54,564 --> 00:29:55,946 we'll meet with you later, 581 00:29:55,946 --> 00:29:58,063 and they came back with a standard response, 582 00:29:58,063 --> 00:29:59,983 no it's not possible. 583 00:29:59,983 --> 00:30:03,566 (light instrumental music) 584 00:30:10,242 --> 00:30:14,409 (Gunnar speaking foreign language) 585 00:30:15,522 --> 00:30:16,839 - [Interpreter] It's typical of museums 586 00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:18,743 to draw negotiations out 587 00:30:18,743 --> 00:30:22,660 even when the legal situation relatively clear. 588 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:25,479 And this lengthy process is partly aimed 589 00:30:25,479 --> 00:30:27,979 at wearing down the claimants. 590 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:32,557 They try to negotiate a different amount 591 00:30:32,557 --> 00:30:34,199 for the transaction, or else, 592 00:30:34,199 --> 00:30:35,641 an entirely different agreement 593 00:30:35,641 --> 00:30:37,540 that is more advantageous for the museum 594 00:30:37,540 --> 00:30:38,957 or for the owner. 595 00:30:41,719 --> 00:30:42,722 - [Interpreter] For two to three years, 596 00:30:42,722 --> 00:30:44,162 we tried to negotiate with them, 597 00:30:44,162 --> 00:30:45,618 but because they were not receptive, 598 00:30:45,618 --> 00:30:47,260 we had to take the bull by the horns. 599 00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:50,343 We took court action for concealment. 600 00:30:51,559 --> 00:30:52,562 - [Interpreter] The family considered 601 00:30:52,562 --> 00:30:54,241 that the work was being concealed, 602 00:30:54,241 --> 00:30:57,122 as they proved the painting had been looted, 603 00:30:57,122 --> 00:30:59,622 but the museum was keeping it. 604 00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:02,598 - [Interpreter] And so two representatives 605 00:31:02,598 --> 00:31:05,420 of the Kann family attended the following session 606 00:31:05,420 --> 00:31:09,260 along with myself with Aillagon in the judge's office. 607 00:31:09,260 --> 00:31:12,242 It was a moment of great pleasure for us, 608 00:31:12,242 --> 00:31:13,409 less for them. 609 00:31:16,283 --> 00:31:17,897 - [Interpreter] The first looting 610 00:31:17,897 --> 00:31:20,662 was the one carried out by the Nazis in 1940, 611 00:31:20,662 --> 00:31:22,423 and the second was when the Pompidou Center 612 00:31:22,423 --> 00:31:25,006 refused to return the painting. 613 00:31:28,626 --> 00:31:29,884 - [Narrator] The court case for concealment 614 00:31:29,884 --> 00:31:33,202 triggered an inquiry that was led by an investigating judge. 615 00:31:33,202 --> 00:31:35,700 It lasted several years. 616 00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:37,682 It was at that time in 2005 617 00:31:37,682 --> 00:31:40,866 that chance filled another 60 year void. 618 00:31:40,866 --> 00:31:43,388 Karl Grunwald's Egon Schiele painting, 619 00:31:43,388 --> 00:31:45,767 Wilted Sunflowers, mysteriously reappeared 620 00:31:45,767 --> 00:31:49,109 in a sleepy suburb in eastern France. 621 00:31:49,109 --> 00:31:52,692 (light instrumental music) 622 00:31:59,301 --> 00:32:02,506 - It was already exhibited in 1914 623 00:32:02,506 --> 00:32:07,285 at the Munich secession, then in Brussels in 1914, 624 00:32:07,285 --> 00:32:09,804 and in Vienna, and then in Paris. 625 00:32:09,804 --> 00:32:11,861 What you see here, the text written about the picture, 626 00:32:11,861 --> 00:32:13,567 it's all about the Earl of Provenance 627 00:32:13,567 --> 00:32:15,626 because it was very well recorded, 628 00:32:15,626 --> 00:32:19,043 so a lot was known about the 20, 25 years 629 00:32:21,893 --> 00:32:25,253 after it was painted, but after that, 630 00:32:25,253 --> 00:32:26,586 no more records. 631 00:32:28,314 --> 00:32:30,814 (light music) 632 00:32:33,641 --> 00:32:37,224 Painted in 1914, on the eve of the outbreak 633 00:32:38,946 --> 00:32:40,196 of World War I. 634 00:32:42,430 --> 00:32:45,150 You see the sunflowers. 635 00:32:45,150 --> 00:32:48,525 Behind the sunflowers you've got the fading sun. 636 00:32:48,525 --> 00:32:50,204 It's an autumn sun. 637 00:32:50,204 --> 00:32:52,912 The sunbeams are very weak. 638 00:32:52,912 --> 00:32:53,929 It's not warm anymore. 639 00:32:53,929 --> 00:32:54,762 It's cold. 640 00:32:57,403 --> 00:32:59,246 The sunbeams are not even warm enough, 641 00:32:59,246 --> 00:33:00,990 not even strong enough anymore, 642 00:33:00,990 --> 00:33:03,150 that the sunflowers turn around 643 00:33:03,150 --> 00:33:06,046 towards the sun as they usually do. 644 00:33:06,046 --> 00:33:09,147 No with Schiele, they turn away from the sun, 645 00:33:09,147 --> 00:33:13,049 they look at you, almost like human beings. 646 00:33:13,049 --> 00:33:15,646 They're wilting, they're fading. 647 00:33:15,646 --> 00:33:18,748 It's a symbol of decay and aging, 648 00:33:18,748 --> 00:33:22,748 and it proved to be an almost apocalyptic symbol 649 00:33:25,067 --> 00:33:27,027 of World War I. 650 00:33:27,027 --> 00:33:31,194 (gunshots ringing and bombs exploding) 651 00:33:38,679 --> 00:33:41,596 (thunder rumbling) 652 00:33:46,081 --> 00:33:47,978 - [Interpreter] Karl Grunwald was a lieutenant 653 00:33:47,978 --> 00:33:51,895 stationed in Vienna during the First World War. 654 00:33:53,536 --> 00:33:57,099 Egon Schiele, a young soldier working in the administration, 655 00:33:57,099 --> 00:33:59,659 was very unhappy with his post. 656 00:33:59,659 --> 00:34:04,176 He suffered a great deal as a government worker and soldier. 657 00:34:04,176 --> 00:34:07,296 Grunwald made sure Schiele was transferred to Vienna 658 00:34:07,296 --> 00:34:10,496 so he could live in better conditions, 659 00:34:10,496 --> 00:34:13,478 ensuring he was allowed to sleep at home, for example, 660 00:34:13,478 --> 00:34:15,136 instead of in the barracks, 661 00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:17,337 which enabled him to carry on his work. 662 00:34:17,337 --> 00:34:19,398 That was very important for the artist. 663 00:34:19,398 --> 00:34:20,403 - He saved him. 664 00:34:20,403 --> 00:34:21,605 He possibly saved him from death 665 00:34:21,605 --> 00:34:24,160 by looking after him and pulling him 666 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,118 away from the front line. 667 00:34:26,118 --> 00:34:29,616 He commissioned a painting from him, 668 00:34:29,616 --> 00:34:33,699 and he already then started collecting his works. 669 00:34:34,847 --> 00:34:37,430 - [Interpreter] Grunwald was an extraordinary collector. 670 00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:38,896 He recognized Schiele's talent 671 00:34:38,896 --> 00:34:41,136 well before anybody else. 672 00:34:41,136 --> 00:34:43,098 As Schiele died at a very young age, 673 00:34:43,098 --> 00:34:46,912 just 27, his production is relatively limited. 674 00:34:46,912 --> 00:34:49,254 Grunwald bought up a large share of that production, 675 00:34:49,254 --> 00:34:51,995 a lot of paintings, supporting him not only artistically, 676 00:34:51,995 --> 00:34:53,328 but morally too. 677 00:34:57,616 --> 00:35:00,214 - [Narrator] In 2005, there were very few works by Schiele 678 00:35:00,214 --> 00:35:01,787 in circulation. 679 00:35:01,787 --> 00:35:03,616 The artist died aged 27, 680 00:35:03,616 --> 00:35:06,715 and his unknown paintings are very rare. 681 00:35:06,715 --> 00:35:08,955 Wilted Sunflowers reappeared as if by magic 682 00:35:08,955 --> 00:35:10,619 in the suburb of Mulhouse 683 00:35:10,619 --> 00:35:11,856 in a furnished apartment bought 684 00:35:11,856 --> 00:35:13,274 through a life annuity scheme 685 00:35:13,274 --> 00:35:16,416 a few years earlier by a working class family. 686 00:35:16,416 --> 00:35:17,494 - It was autumn. 687 00:35:17,494 --> 00:35:20,577 It was autumn 2005 when we came here. 688 00:35:24,290 --> 00:35:28,656 We received a call from a lawyer here in Mulhouse 689 00:35:28,656 --> 00:35:31,414 who told us he had a client 690 00:35:31,414 --> 00:35:35,376 who had discovered something in his apartment, 691 00:35:35,376 --> 00:35:38,709 and we should try and have a look at it. 692 00:35:44,534 --> 00:35:47,435 We just saw, it can't be, it must be a fake, 693 00:35:47,435 --> 00:35:49,971 it must be a copy, a reproduction, 694 00:35:49,971 --> 00:35:52,251 I mean there are reproductions often, 695 00:35:52,251 --> 00:35:55,918 even early reproductions of these paintings. 696 00:35:57,152 --> 00:36:01,174 It's a masterpiece, and you don't find masterpieces 697 00:36:01,174 --> 00:36:02,424 just like that. 698 00:36:07,574 --> 00:36:10,157 We knew that if it was genuine, 699 00:36:11,159 --> 00:36:14,659 it would be worth several million dollars. 700 00:36:17,448 --> 00:36:20,948 (coffee machine whirring) 701 00:36:30,394 --> 00:36:32,774 And we walked up the stairs, 702 00:36:32,774 --> 00:36:35,472 and there was sort of light coming through the window, 703 00:36:35,472 --> 00:36:37,462 and the picture was leaning on the wall, 704 00:36:37,462 --> 00:36:40,393 on the floor, against the wall, 705 00:36:40,393 --> 00:36:42,832 and we saw it, and literally, 706 00:36:42,832 --> 00:36:45,749 within seconds, we knew this is it. 707 00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:49,847 This is the long lost picture 708 00:36:50,736 --> 00:36:53,798 which hadn't been seen for 60 years, 709 00:36:53,798 --> 00:36:57,215 the original sunflower picture by Schiele 710 00:36:58,113 --> 00:36:59,591 painted in 1914. 711 00:36:59,591 --> 00:37:03,174 (light instrumental music) 712 00:37:16,307 --> 00:37:17,646 - [Narrator] For some players and observers 713 00:37:17,646 --> 00:37:20,227 in the art world, the tale of this magical reappearance 714 00:37:20,227 --> 00:37:24,394 orchestrated by Christie's is almost too good to be true. 715 00:37:30,488 --> 00:37:35,310 - [Interpreter] I spoke with his heirs in New York. 716 00:37:35,310 --> 00:37:38,808 And it's very probably the official version, 717 00:37:38,808 --> 00:37:42,841 but in fact, it's just a case of big business. 718 00:37:42,841 --> 00:37:46,174 - There's this young man, very nice guy, 719 00:37:48,147 --> 00:37:52,427 who owns this, he's in the possession of this picture, 720 00:37:52,427 --> 00:37:54,266 and we know that the large family, 721 00:37:54,266 --> 00:37:59,230 the Grunwald family, scattered all over the world, 722 00:37:59,230 --> 00:38:01,897 who are entitled to get it back. 723 00:38:10,910 --> 00:38:12,530 - [Interpreter] The case of Wilted Sunflowers 724 00:38:12,530 --> 00:38:15,048 was a wonderful opportunity for an auction house 725 00:38:15,048 --> 00:38:18,248 like Christie's to present itself in the public's eyes 726 00:38:18,248 --> 00:38:20,792 as a key intermediary and the savior 727 00:38:20,792 --> 00:38:22,750 of an important work of art, 728 00:38:22,750 --> 00:38:26,167 so a great stroke of luck for Christie's. 729 00:38:28,131 --> 00:38:31,670 The painting had apparently been missing for decades, 730 00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:34,507 and apparently, nobody knew where it was. 731 00:38:34,507 --> 00:38:35,909 Even the occupants of the apartment 732 00:38:35,909 --> 00:38:40,370 were oblivious to the real nature of the work. 733 00:38:40,370 --> 00:38:42,552 Then an expert like Christie's could come along 734 00:38:42,552 --> 00:38:44,670 and solve the case. 735 00:38:44,670 --> 00:38:46,389 The heirs were not even given the opportunity 736 00:38:46,389 --> 00:38:49,556 to choose the solution they preferred. 737 00:38:55,928 --> 00:38:59,387 - It wasn't just about giving it back, hopefully, 738 00:38:59,387 --> 00:39:03,208 finding a solution, but it also meant 739 00:39:03,208 --> 00:39:05,630 this picture was a symbol 740 00:39:05,630 --> 00:39:08,808 of bringing different generations of the Grunwald family 741 00:39:08,808 --> 00:39:10,058 together again. 742 00:39:12,428 --> 00:39:15,345 They all knew this was the painting 743 00:39:16,248 --> 00:39:19,915 that grandfather had always been looking for 744 00:39:20,846 --> 00:39:21,846 for decades. 745 00:39:25,688 --> 00:39:26,691 - [Interpreter] On this point, 746 00:39:26,691 --> 00:39:29,669 Christie's played a key role. 747 00:39:29,669 --> 00:39:32,472 In spite of everything, Christie's did not just carry out 748 00:39:32,472 --> 00:39:34,930 a very positive advertising campaign, 749 00:39:34,930 --> 00:39:37,272 they also earned money. 750 00:39:37,272 --> 00:39:38,611 That might not have been necessary 751 00:39:38,611 --> 00:39:40,368 if they wanted to tell a really moving 752 00:39:40,368 --> 00:39:42,201 fairy tale type story. 753 00:39:44,611 --> 00:39:46,771 - We sold it then, six months later, 754 00:39:46,771 --> 00:39:50,311 for something like 21.7 million dollars, 755 00:39:50,311 --> 00:39:52,312 and yet we found it in an apartment 756 00:39:52,312 --> 00:39:56,479 which was worth a fraction of this, a tiny fraction, 757 00:39:59,907 --> 00:40:02,510 so with the proceeds of the painting, 758 00:40:02,510 --> 00:40:05,411 it probably could've bought the whole street. 759 00:40:05,411 --> 00:40:09,078 (lively instrumental music) 760 00:40:17,171 --> 00:40:20,110 The Grunwald family, they have wanted him 761 00:40:20,110 --> 00:40:23,752 to be at the table, and we brought them together 762 00:40:23,752 --> 00:40:26,174 in London in a hotel nearby Christie's, 763 00:40:26,174 --> 00:40:30,472 and we were sitting around a long oval table, 764 00:40:30,472 --> 00:40:33,966 I never forget that, and there was a speech 765 00:40:33,966 --> 00:40:35,672 by one member of the family, 766 00:40:35,672 --> 00:40:39,339 and they welcomed him as yet another member, 767 00:40:41,134 --> 00:40:43,310 as another part of the Grunwald family. 768 00:40:43,310 --> 00:40:44,333 It was very moving. 769 00:40:44,333 --> 00:40:46,583 It was extremely emotional. 770 00:40:48,131 --> 00:40:49,909 - [Interpreter] We don't know anything, 771 00:40:49,909 --> 00:40:51,214 and I'm sure that the people involved, 772 00:40:51,214 --> 00:40:53,630 because of the duty of confidentiality 773 00:40:53,630 --> 00:40:56,093 that is always written into contracts like this, 774 00:40:56,093 --> 00:40:57,392 and which really must be respected 775 00:40:57,392 --> 00:41:00,030 to avoid facing major inconvenience, 776 00:41:00,030 --> 00:41:04,197 unfortunately will not enable us to know the full truth. 777 00:41:06,730 --> 00:41:10,012 - Well, we don't talk about how the case was settled, 778 00:41:10,012 --> 00:41:11,790 but they found an agreement. 779 00:41:11,790 --> 00:41:13,623 Let's put it this way. 780 00:41:15,616 --> 00:41:17,374 - [Interpreter] You'll notice I'm smiling a little 781 00:41:17,374 --> 00:41:19,624 when you mention the story. 782 00:41:20,494 --> 00:41:22,661 It's not a rare situation. 783 00:41:25,491 --> 00:41:28,128 Auction houses or art dealers contact the heirs 784 00:41:28,128 --> 00:41:30,545 of Jewish collectors and say, 785 00:41:32,035 --> 00:41:34,454 we know where your painting is. 786 00:41:34,454 --> 00:41:36,731 We can't tell you, but we can serve 787 00:41:36,731 --> 00:41:39,534 as an intermediary to reach an agreement, 788 00:41:39,534 --> 00:41:41,891 so that both you and the current owner 789 00:41:41,891 --> 00:41:43,724 benefit from the sale. 790 00:41:48,254 --> 00:41:50,894 It's very pragmatic, but legally, 791 00:41:50,894 --> 00:41:53,635 it's highly questionable 792 00:41:53,635 --> 00:41:56,094 because in my opinion, the Grunwald family 793 00:41:56,094 --> 00:41:59,011 should've recovered their property. 794 00:42:00,957 --> 00:42:01,955 It's quite common. 795 00:42:01,955 --> 00:42:03,875 We mustn't judge. 796 00:42:03,875 --> 00:42:06,214 The results speak for itself. 797 00:42:06,214 --> 00:42:08,934 The painting reappeared, it became famous again 798 00:42:08,934 --> 00:42:12,684 after decades, it was wrenched from oblivion, 799 00:42:15,715 --> 00:42:17,294 but the market spoke, 800 00:42:17,294 --> 00:42:18,574 and the market enabled the painting 801 00:42:18,574 --> 00:42:21,074 to obtain an incredible value. 802 00:42:22,552 --> 00:42:24,392 - We hope that this story 803 00:42:24,392 --> 00:42:27,112 will serve as an example 804 00:42:27,112 --> 00:42:30,445 for many other restitution cases to come 805 00:42:31,811 --> 00:42:34,894 that amicable solutions are possible. 806 00:42:38,574 --> 00:42:41,493 - [Narrator] 21.7 million euros. 807 00:42:41,493 --> 00:42:43,395 Whatever the mysterious arrangement was, 808 00:42:43,395 --> 00:42:46,395 that was the sum the auction raised. 809 00:42:49,715 --> 00:42:51,214 Meanwhile, the inquiry carried out 810 00:42:51,214 --> 00:42:53,192 by the investigating judge into Braque's 811 00:42:53,192 --> 00:42:55,776 Man With a Guitar dragged on. 812 00:42:55,776 --> 00:42:57,312 Discussions between the Pompidou Center 813 00:42:57,312 --> 00:43:00,496 and Alphonse Kann's heirs remained highly charged. 814 00:43:00,496 --> 00:43:01,694 The accusation of concealment 815 00:43:01,694 --> 00:43:03,811 triggered lengthy research that did not succeed 816 00:43:03,811 --> 00:43:05,891 in throwing light on historical haze 817 00:43:05,891 --> 00:43:10,058 surrounding the painting's journey just after it was looted. 818 00:43:16,311 --> 00:43:18,931 - [Interpreter] The accusation did not go through. 819 00:43:18,931 --> 00:43:20,630 The judge closed the case. 820 00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:23,054 At the time, the judge gave me a hearing. 821 00:43:23,054 --> 00:43:24,390 The study took a number of years 822 00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:26,515 and was never able to formally establish 823 00:43:26,515 --> 00:43:29,091 that at a particular moment in time, 824 00:43:29,091 --> 00:43:31,155 a deed of assignment had been organized 825 00:43:31,155 --> 00:43:34,192 between Alphonse Kann and a third party, 826 00:43:34,192 --> 00:43:36,851 so we concluded that Alphonse Kann's beneficiaries 827 00:43:36,851 --> 00:43:40,535 should be given the benefit of the doubt. 828 00:43:40,535 --> 00:43:41,552 - [Interpreter] The Pompidou Center 829 00:43:41,552 --> 00:43:44,491 kept the painting and indemnified the family. 830 00:43:44,491 --> 00:43:47,941 An agreement protocol was drawn up. 831 00:43:47,941 --> 00:43:49,118 - [Interpreter] The Kann family certainly made 832 00:43:49,118 --> 00:43:50,951 the right decision that the painting 833 00:43:50,951 --> 00:43:53,268 should remain in the Pompidou Center. 834 00:43:53,268 --> 00:43:56,307 I think they were extremely generous and fair 835 00:43:56,307 --> 00:44:00,372 in not making the maximum amount of money out of it. 836 00:44:00,372 --> 00:44:01,910 I wouldn't be surprised, if today, 837 00:44:01,910 --> 00:44:03,335 a painting like that reached between 838 00:44:03,335 --> 00:44:05,634 70 and 80 million euros. 839 00:44:05,634 --> 00:44:07,911 You just don't find paintings like that anymore. 840 00:44:07,911 --> 00:44:08,914 It's incredibly rare, 841 00:44:08,914 --> 00:44:10,692 and it's one of the symbols of a movement, 842 00:44:10,692 --> 00:44:15,174 if not the most important movement of the 20th century. 843 00:44:15,174 --> 00:44:19,174 (man speaking foreign language) 844 00:44:28,685 --> 00:44:30,763 - [Interpreter] Today, museums consider themselves 845 00:44:30,763 --> 00:44:34,888 responsible for the preservation of art. 846 00:44:34,888 --> 00:44:36,186 Many museums when confronted 847 00:44:36,186 --> 00:44:38,647 with request for restitution respond, 848 00:44:38,647 --> 00:44:41,304 for centuries we have saved, protected, 849 00:44:41,304 --> 00:44:43,971 and made these works accessible. 850 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,456 That's our mission, and we don't want a painting 851 00:44:48,456 --> 00:44:50,898 which has since become extremely precious 852 00:44:50,898 --> 00:44:53,981 to disappear into the private sphere. 853 00:44:57,234 --> 00:45:01,394 - For museums, it has always been a complicated matter, 854 00:45:01,394 --> 00:45:04,813 very complicated, because they do not deal 855 00:45:04,813 --> 00:45:09,016 with these paintings or with these art objects 856 00:45:09,016 --> 00:45:11,554 as if they had been looted. 857 00:45:11,554 --> 00:45:14,994 They deal with them as if they were in museums 858 00:45:14,994 --> 00:45:19,256 or not in museums, and we know that many curators, 859 00:45:19,256 --> 00:45:22,303 once they have an object inside the museum, 860 00:45:22,303 --> 00:45:24,030 it should never leave the museum 861 00:45:24,030 --> 00:45:25,947 under any circumstance. 862 00:45:27,262 --> 00:45:28,877 - [Interpreter] I do understand the museums. 863 00:45:28,877 --> 00:45:30,258 It's hard for them to part with the works 864 00:45:30,258 --> 00:45:32,317 because they have been hanging on their walls 865 00:45:32,317 --> 00:45:34,931 for 30 or 40 years, and all of a sudden, 866 00:45:34,931 --> 00:45:37,354 they're asked to give them back. 867 00:45:37,354 --> 00:45:40,696 Yet, ultimately, it didn't belong to them. 868 00:45:40,696 --> 00:45:42,536 They were its custodians. 869 00:45:42,536 --> 00:45:43,976 I understand their frustration, 870 00:45:43,976 --> 00:45:45,556 but it's also logical that they return things 871 00:45:45,556 --> 00:45:47,098 that they do not belong to them 872 00:45:47,098 --> 00:45:49,515 if they're not really theirs. 873 00:45:51,976 --> 00:45:53,000 - [Narrator] Today, the case of Braque 874 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,237 still remains a highly sensitive affair 875 00:45:55,237 --> 00:45:57,874 in the memory of the Pompidou Center. 876 00:45:57,874 --> 00:46:00,114 After purchasing the painting in 1981, 877 00:46:00,114 --> 00:46:02,514 the museum had to pay a second very large sum, 878 00:46:02,514 --> 00:46:04,137 confidential this time, 879 00:46:04,137 --> 00:46:07,887 to keep the work in the national collections. 880 00:46:12,113 --> 00:46:13,853 The case of Paul Rosenberg's Matisse 881 00:46:13,853 --> 00:46:16,301 recounts a different story. 882 00:46:16,301 --> 00:46:18,514 The painting reappeared in 2012, 883 00:46:18,514 --> 00:46:20,910 ironically, in the same Pompidou Museum 884 00:46:20,910 --> 00:46:22,456 during a Matisse retrospective 885 00:46:22,456 --> 00:46:25,456 67 years after it first disappeared. 886 00:46:26,893 --> 00:46:29,394 Lent by a Norwegian foundation from Oslo, 887 00:46:29,394 --> 00:46:31,117 Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace 888 00:46:31,117 --> 00:46:35,284 was exhibited alongside dozens of other works by Matisse. 889 00:46:36,786 --> 00:46:37,874 - [Interpreter] As it happened, 890 00:46:37,874 --> 00:46:39,554 I didn't know the list of missing paintings 891 00:46:39,554 --> 00:46:41,810 off by heart, so I missed it. 892 00:46:41,810 --> 00:46:43,714 Luckily, certain specialists, 893 00:46:43,714 --> 00:46:45,898 in particular Emmanuel Pollack, 894 00:46:45,898 --> 00:46:48,291 noticed it and pointed it out. 895 00:46:48,291 --> 00:46:50,411 Our family was alerted that there was a painting 896 00:46:50,411 --> 00:46:52,744 that belonged to the family. 897 00:46:53,933 --> 00:46:57,016 - We were contacted in spring of 2012 898 00:46:57,892 --> 00:47:01,973 by the lawyer of the Rosenberg family in New York, 899 00:47:01,973 --> 00:47:06,296 and they presented us with the papers from E.R.R. 900 00:47:06,296 --> 00:47:07,892 that are now in Washington 901 00:47:07,892 --> 00:47:11,234 and claimed that the painting was stolen. 902 00:47:11,234 --> 00:47:12,733 It was the first case in Norway, 903 00:47:12,733 --> 00:47:16,377 so it's of course a heavy burden for a small museum 904 00:47:16,377 --> 00:47:19,794 to start investigating such a huge issue. 905 00:47:21,474 --> 00:47:22,472 - [Interpreter] When you know the conditions 906 00:47:22,472 --> 00:47:23,630 the work was lost in, 907 00:47:23,630 --> 00:47:25,592 and that it was sold during the Nazi era, 908 00:47:25,592 --> 00:47:27,352 things become more complicated 909 00:47:27,352 --> 00:47:29,794 because we needed to trace the work of art 910 00:47:29,794 --> 00:47:31,474 during the ensuing 50 years 911 00:47:31,474 --> 00:47:33,150 even though it was sometimes sold 912 00:47:33,150 --> 00:47:37,794 four or five times, and that's very difficult. 913 00:47:37,794 --> 00:47:40,573 - When we deframed the paintings, 914 00:47:40,573 --> 00:47:43,650 we couldn't find any traces or evidence 915 00:47:43,650 --> 00:47:46,176 of the history of the painting at all. 916 00:47:46,176 --> 00:47:48,754 The only mark on the back of the painting 917 00:47:48,754 --> 00:47:51,504 is a stamp for a Norwegian crown, 918 00:47:53,213 --> 00:47:54,848 so it's been brought into Norway. 919 00:47:54,848 --> 00:47:56,631 That's the only thing we know. 920 00:47:56,631 --> 00:47:58,450 - [Narrator] Like for Braque, the heirs had to prove 921 00:47:58,450 --> 00:48:00,618 the Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace 922 00:48:00,618 --> 00:48:03,410 had indeed belonged to Paul Rosenberg. 923 00:48:03,410 --> 00:48:04,413 They had to provide proof 924 00:48:04,413 --> 00:48:06,653 that it had been in the vault in Libourne. 925 00:48:06,653 --> 00:48:08,530 At the archives of the French Ministry 926 00:48:08,530 --> 00:48:10,632 of Foreign Affairs, Paul Rosenberg's actions 927 00:48:10,632 --> 00:48:13,770 can be traced as he set out to find his canvases 928 00:48:13,770 --> 00:48:16,361 as soon as the war ended. 929 00:48:16,361 --> 00:48:19,208 - [Interpreter] There, there is a very important note. 930 00:48:19,208 --> 00:48:22,376 So, vault of Libourne, as indicated in my letter 931 00:48:22,376 --> 00:48:25,517 dated the 15th, the vault was forced open 932 00:48:25,517 --> 00:48:27,767 on the 28th of April, 1941. 933 00:48:29,898 --> 00:48:32,856 In the presence of the occupying authorities. 934 00:48:32,856 --> 00:48:34,274 The contents of the vault were transferred 935 00:48:34,274 --> 00:48:36,973 to another vault, and an inventory was drawn up 936 00:48:36,973 --> 00:48:39,610 by the director of the Bordeaux School of Fine Arts, 937 00:48:39,610 --> 00:48:40,777 Mr. Roganneau. 938 00:48:48,136 --> 00:48:50,685 So here, you can clearly see a painting by Matisse, 939 00:48:50,685 --> 00:48:53,117 Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace, 940 00:48:53,117 --> 00:48:56,367 measuring 60 by 81, does indeed feature 941 00:48:57,373 --> 00:49:00,170 in this inventory drawn up by Roganneau 942 00:49:00,170 --> 00:49:02,170 from the Libourne vault. 943 00:49:03,532 --> 00:49:05,736 We know that in September 1941, 944 00:49:05,736 --> 00:49:09,653 these works arrived at the Jeu de Paume Museum. 945 00:49:13,234 --> 00:49:16,688 On the back of an information card of a Matisse drawing, 946 00:49:16,688 --> 00:49:18,248 I see a list, an inventory 947 00:49:18,248 --> 00:49:21,512 with Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace 948 00:49:21,512 --> 00:49:25,679 with the inventory number of Paul Rosenberg's collection, 949 00:49:27,192 --> 00:49:28,206 and the fact that it's presented 950 00:49:28,206 --> 00:49:29,789 with this sentence, 951 00:49:30,733 --> 00:49:33,794 taken either in Floirac or in Paris, 952 00:49:33,794 --> 00:49:35,752 leads me to believe that it was not recovered 953 00:49:35,752 --> 00:49:38,289 after the war, but that he was still searching 954 00:49:38,289 --> 00:49:39,456 for his works. 955 00:49:41,714 --> 00:49:44,714 (light piano music) 956 00:49:45,754 --> 00:49:46,896 - [Narrator] The presence of 957 00:49:46,896 --> 00:49:48,608 the Woman in Blue in Front of a Fireplace 958 00:49:48,608 --> 00:49:50,062 in the Libourne vault confirms 959 00:49:50,062 --> 00:49:52,562 it belonged to Paul Rosenberg. 960 00:49:54,926 --> 00:49:56,164 It remains to be determined 961 00:49:56,164 --> 00:49:58,025 whether or not at the time of the acquisition 962 00:49:58,025 --> 00:50:02,192 the Henie Onstad couple knew it was a looted painting. 963 00:50:05,444 --> 00:50:06,446 - [Interpreter] The painting entered 964 00:50:06,446 --> 00:50:09,284 the Norwegian foundation before the 1960s 965 00:50:09,284 --> 00:50:12,005 because between 1960 and 1963, 966 00:50:12,005 --> 00:50:15,886 I tracked it in the exhibition catalogs about 17 times 967 00:50:15,886 --> 00:50:17,305 which makes me think the couple, 968 00:50:17,305 --> 00:50:22,286 the owners of the work, were acting in good faith. 969 00:50:22,286 --> 00:50:24,226 Because when you lend a work, 970 00:50:24,226 --> 00:50:27,582 you're not afraid to exhibit it. 971 00:50:27,582 --> 00:50:31,044 You're not afraid of claims by the family, 972 00:50:31,044 --> 00:50:32,804 so they didn't know. 973 00:50:32,804 --> 00:50:35,604 - The thing about researching the history 974 00:50:35,604 --> 00:50:37,822 is that you can never be sure. 975 00:50:37,822 --> 00:50:40,766 You have to make a decision upon the facts you have, 976 00:50:40,766 --> 00:50:43,124 and depending on them, you decide 977 00:50:43,124 --> 00:50:47,086 whether or not to return an artwork like we did, 978 00:50:47,086 --> 00:50:51,624 and so it will always be a part of the history 979 00:50:51,624 --> 00:50:53,874 that is not really covered. 980 00:50:57,540 --> 00:50:58,942 - [Interpreter] The return of the Rosenberg collection 981 00:50:58,942 --> 00:51:02,121 Matisse painting by a private Norwegian museum 982 00:51:02,121 --> 00:51:05,454 is a highly unusual case of restitution. 983 00:51:09,780 --> 00:51:12,258 Unusual because, and I find it astonishing, 984 00:51:12,258 --> 00:51:14,798 albeit very positive, the private foundation 985 00:51:14,798 --> 00:51:16,660 declared it was prepared to return 986 00:51:16,660 --> 00:51:19,403 a work in its possession to the Rosenberg family 987 00:51:19,403 --> 00:51:23,403 without being obliged to do so by Norwegian law. 988 00:51:27,028 --> 00:51:30,537 - It was a sad moment seeing the painting leave, 989 00:51:30,537 --> 00:51:33,577 but I'm sure that we did the right thing, 990 00:51:33,577 --> 00:51:35,780 and that's the most important for the institution 991 00:51:35,780 --> 00:51:36,697 and for me. 992 00:51:38,201 --> 00:51:39,463 - [Interpreter] It's very moving 993 00:51:39,463 --> 00:51:42,105 to find a canvas like that 994 00:51:42,105 --> 00:51:45,764 because you wonder what it has lived through, 995 00:51:45,764 --> 00:51:48,307 what vicissitudes it went through 996 00:51:48,307 --> 00:51:51,460 since it was painted in Matisse's studio 997 00:51:51,460 --> 00:51:53,599 and was taken directly from Matisse's studio 998 00:51:53,599 --> 00:51:56,264 to my grandfather's gallery. 999 00:51:56,264 --> 00:51:58,830 Then suddenly, the war arrived, 1000 00:51:58,830 --> 00:52:01,387 and it got caught up in the turmoil, 1001 00:52:01,387 --> 00:52:03,129 passing from a Gestapo lorry 1002 00:52:03,129 --> 00:52:06,046 to warehouses guarded by the Nazis, 1003 00:52:07,588 --> 00:52:09,723 and from there, to shady dealers 1004 00:52:09,723 --> 00:52:11,473 who conjured it away, 1005 00:52:12,765 --> 00:52:15,003 so it has an incredible story. 1006 00:52:15,003 --> 00:52:18,503 (soft instrumental music) 1007 00:52:23,484 --> 00:52:24,889 The looting of works of art 1008 00:52:24,889 --> 00:52:29,265 remains a symbol of what the Nazis tried to do, 1009 00:52:29,265 --> 00:52:31,230 what they failed to do, 1010 00:52:31,230 --> 00:52:34,273 and what the Allies tried to restore, 1011 00:52:34,273 --> 00:52:36,836 the plundering of European culture. 1012 00:52:36,836 --> 00:52:40,336 (soft instrumental music) 1013 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,187 (lively instrumental music) 74912

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