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1
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Mr. Mason,
it's hard to believe
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00:00:08,750 --> 00:00:10,208
that you're the right person
for the job.
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00:00:10,500 --> 00:00:12,333
I'm the only person
for this job.
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00:00:13,709 --> 00:00:15,000
It's a complicated case.
5
00:00:15,083 --> 00:00:16,792
This one's really got its hooks
in me.
6
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:24,074
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7
00:00:40,667 --> 00:00:44,667
This is my grandfather,
Julius Rosenberg.
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And this is
9
00:00:46,542 --> 00:00:49,583
Julius and Ethel
Rosenberg together.
10
00:00:50,041 --> 00:00:53,458
My father and my uncle were...
11
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around ten and six...
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00:00:59,750 --> 00:01:03,792
um, when they were electrocuted.
13
00:01:05,458 --> 00:01:09,166
They were accused of stealing
the atom bomb secret.
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I wanna ask my dad
15
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how people started
thinking about
16
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why Ethel and Julius
stole the atom bomb secret.
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Why he accused them.
18
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What happened was that
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the government of
the United States wanted to...
20
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make your grandma
and grandpa...
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00:01:29,834 --> 00:01:32,959
make up some lies
about a lot of people,
22
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so that these people,
23
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who the government of the United States didn't like,
24
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would all get put in jail.
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But they refused to tell those
lies because if they did,
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then other people
would be killed.
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What I wanna do is I wanna say
28
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to the people who
killed my parents,
29
00:01:50,458 --> 00:01:52,583
25 years ago,
you killed two people,
30
00:01:52,667 --> 00:01:54,667
but you did not
crush our struggle.
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We are still here,
and we are still struggling,
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and we are united
in the statement
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that it will never happen again.
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00:02:02,792 --> 00:02:07,083
♪ ♪
35
00:02:07,166 --> 00:02:10,709
Roy Cohn, when he was
virtually just a teenager,
36
00:02:10,792 --> 00:02:15,709
sent Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to the electric chair.
37
00:02:17,542 --> 00:02:19,333
You've had 30 years,
38
00:02:19,417 --> 00:02:22,000
30 years since
the Rosenbergs were executed.
39
00:02:22,959 --> 00:02:24,959
Have you spent
one of those nights
40
00:02:25,041 --> 00:02:27,750
sleepless for sending
this couple to the chair?
41
00:02:27,834 --> 00:02:31,792
Of course not, Barry.
This couple was convicted by a jury,
42
00:02:31,875 --> 00:02:34,375
and if ever the death
penalty were appropriate,
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it was in that case.
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♪ ♪
45
00:02:41,875 --> 00:02:43,333
Is there
a police officer?
46
00:02:47,875 --> 00:02:49,250
What can I say?
47
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That I haven't been discreet?
48
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I never claimed
to be discreet.
49
00:02:54,333 --> 00:02:55,875
Hey, Ernie. Come on.
50
00:02:57,083 --> 00:02:59,750
I claim to be upfront
and totally candid.
51
00:02:59,834 --> 00:03:01,750
And I claim not
to be a hypocrite.
52
00:03:01,834 --> 00:03:04,500
We believe that the free world
is gonna win the Cold War,
53
00:03:04,583 --> 00:03:07,083
and win this fight by
- the truth.
54
00:03:08,417 --> 00:03:11,083
I'm a guy who's taken
tough positions,
55
00:03:11,166 --> 00:03:12,709
starting with
the Rosenberg case,
56
00:03:12,792 --> 00:03:14,250
starting with
the McCarthy period.
57
00:03:14,333 --> 00:03:15,458
I don't see the difference
58
00:03:15,542 --> 00:03:18,083
between Nazism and Hitler
on the one hand,
59
00:03:18,166 --> 00:03:20,417
and Communism
on the other hand.
60
00:03:22,083 --> 00:03:25,500
What I do,
I do on the basis of moral judgments
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00:03:25,583 --> 00:03:28,125
as I make them,
as only I must make them,
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00:03:28,208 --> 00:03:31,333
according to
my own conscience.
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00:03:31,417 --> 00:03:33,750
I reserve that right,
the right to make judgments
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00:03:33,834 --> 00:03:35,667
about myself
and other people,
65
00:03:35,750 --> 00:03:38,959
and have other people make them about me.
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00:03:39,041 --> 00:03:40,959
Someone wants
to be my detractor,
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00:03:41,041 --> 00:03:42,542
that is that
person's privilege.
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00:03:42,625 --> 00:03:44,041
I just don't care.
69
00:03:44,125 --> 00:03:46,542
"I'll show them what
the national interest is.
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00:03:46,625 --> 00:03:48,542
I'll hold up
the army to ridicule."
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00:03:48,625 --> 00:03:49,959
I said that?
72
00:03:50,041 --> 00:03:52,709
- According to a book I read.
- Well, read another book.
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00:03:54,792 --> 00:03:56,875
I found out
one thing in life.
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Don't ever threaten unless
you intend to follow through.
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00:04:08,750 --> 00:04:11,875
♪ ♪
76
00:04:13,166 --> 00:04:15,208
Everything I do
has to be true.
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I will not say anything that
I cannot repeat under oath.
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00:04:20,125 --> 00:04:23,500
♪ ♪
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00:04:35,166 --> 00:04:39,166
In 1980, I went to
"Playboy Magazine,"
80
00:04:39,250 --> 00:04:41,291
and I said I'd like
to do an interview
81
00:04:41,375 --> 00:04:43,709
of Roy Cohn
for the magazine.
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00:04:43,792 --> 00:04:46,417
Testing, testing.
83
00:04:46,500 --> 00:04:48,542
Roy Cohn, Peter Manso.
84
00:04:48,625 --> 00:04:50,917
Actually, why don't we do this?
Why don't we just break here?
85
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,750
Okay. Have we
covered a lot of...
86
00:04:52,834 --> 00:04:54,417
We're getting there,
we're getting there.
87
00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:57,125
I simply called Roy
at his law firm,
88
00:04:57,208 --> 00:04:59,792
Saxe, Bacon, & Bolan
in New York,
89
00:04:59,875 --> 00:05:02,291
uh, left a message,
and five minutes later,
90
00:05:02,375 --> 00:05:05,667
the phone rang, and it was Roy
at the other end of the phone.
91
00:05:05,750 --> 00:05:07,291
"Sounds interesting.
When do you wanna
92
00:05:07,375 --> 00:05:08,875
get together to talk about it?"
93
00:05:08,959 --> 00:05:12,625
♪ ♪
94
00:05:12,709 --> 00:05:15,792
We started taping at his
place in North Greenwich,
95
00:05:15,875 --> 00:05:18,542
an hour or so
north of New York.
96
00:05:19,917 --> 00:05:21,208
Okay, go ahead.
97
00:05:21,291 --> 00:05:22,792
Uh, so, presumably,
your clients,
98
00:05:22,875 --> 00:05:24,709
the wealthy,
social register types, da da da,
99
00:05:24,792 --> 00:05:26,959
have come to you over the years because you gained a reputation
100
00:05:27,041 --> 00:05:28,750
for getting things done.
For winning.
101
00:05:28,834 --> 00:05:31,166
Does all this go back to what you learned from McCarthy?
102
00:05:31,250 --> 00:05:33,291
The so-called
"Achilles heel" technique?
103
00:05:33,375 --> 00:05:35,000
Uh, I wouldn't say
104
00:05:35,083 --> 00:05:36,875
it's what I learned
from McCarthy.
105
00:05:36,959 --> 00:05:40,000
I think it's what I started learning during the Rosenberg trial,
106
00:05:40,083 --> 00:05:42,709
what I learned at the US district attorney's office,
107
00:05:42,792 --> 00:05:45,667
when I made up my mind that law is an adversary profession.
108
00:05:45,750 --> 00:05:47,792
One side wins,
one side loses.
109
00:05:47,875 --> 00:05:49,208
And I don't--
I don't like to lose.
110
00:05:49,291 --> 00:05:50,709
- I hate to lose.
- Mm-hmm.
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00:05:50,792 --> 00:05:52,542
So, I just made up my mind
I was gonna do
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everything I could in the way
of careful preparation...
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00:05:55,041 --> 00:05:57,333
Mm-hmm.
- ...in the way of tough fighting
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00:05:57,417 --> 00:05:59,041
to be a winner.
115
00:06:00,750 --> 00:06:03,375
It became clear
to me right away
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00:06:03,458 --> 00:06:07,291
that my stereotyping
of Roy was inadequate.
117
00:06:07,917 --> 00:06:10,875
To call him evil, it's true,
118
00:06:11,709 --> 00:06:16,542
but it doesn't explain 100
other things about Roy Cohn.
119
00:06:16,625 --> 00:06:19,375
He was bright,
he was contentious,
120
00:06:19,458 --> 00:06:22,959
but I think what appealed
to me most about Roy is
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00:06:23,041 --> 00:06:25,709
that he was a lawless madman.
122
00:06:25,792 --> 00:06:29,041
I would say I'm probably
more of a maverick.
123
00:06:29,125 --> 00:06:31,542
I do have a crazy
list of clients.
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00:06:31,625 --> 00:06:35,542
The usual reaction isn't "Ah,
Roy Cohn represents the mob."
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00:06:35,625 --> 00:06:37,917
It's "Roy Cohn
and Studio 54.
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00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,375
"Roy Cohn
and anti-Communism.
127
00:06:39,458 --> 00:06:40,917
"Roy Cohn
and the archdiocese.
128
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,917
"Roy Cohn, the friend of...
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00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,208
"the lawyer for
Donald Trump.
130
00:06:45,291 --> 00:06:47,375
"Roy Cohn, good friend
of George Steinbrenner
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00:06:47,458 --> 00:06:48,709
"who owns
the New York Yankees.
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00:06:48,792 --> 00:06:50,709
"Roy Cohn,
the friend of congressmen,
133
00:06:50,792 --> 00:06:52,583
senators, judges."
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00:06:52,667 --> 00:06:55,875
♪ ♪
135
00:07:00,834 --> 00:07:04,000
Someone had passed America's atomic bomb secrets to Russia.
136
00:07:04,083 --> 00:07:06,750
This was an undisputed fact
that the whole world knew.
137
00:07:06,834 --> 00:07:09,041
The federal government had laid the crime at the doorstep
138
00:07:09,125 --> 00:07:12,750
of two native New Yorkers,
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
139
00:07:12,834 --> 00:07:16,333
♪ ♪
140
00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:22,333
My parents grew up during
the Great Depression.
141
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,083
The Communists were
the ones who were fighting
142
00:07:26,166 --> 00:07:28,792
for the rights of
tenants and workers,
143
00:07:28,875 --> 00:07:31,500
and so, they were
naturally drawn to it.
144
00:07:31,583 --> 00:07:34,458
In World War II,
given the wartime alliance
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00:07:34,542 --> 00:07:35,875
with the Soviet Union,
146
00:07:35,959 --> 00:07:40,667
Communism was allied
with Americanism.
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00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:43,542
It became a natural thing
148
00:07:43,625 --> 00:07:45,542
to politically support
149
00:07:45,625 --> 00:07:47,667
the survival of
the Soviet Union.
150
00:07:51,291 --> 00:07:53,917
My father made
a big deal at the trial
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00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:55,625
that he liked
the Soviet Union
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00:07:55,709 --> 00:07:59,125
because it had torn the guts
out of the Hitler beast
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00:07:59,208 --> 00:08:02,291
that killed six million
of my fellow Jews.
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00:08:02,375 --> 00:08:05,041
♪ ♪
155
00:08:05,125 --> 00:08:07,000
When my children
were young,
156
00:08:07,083 --> 00:08:08,792
they learned
that Judge Kaufman
157
00:08:08,875 --> 00:08:10,875
sentenced their
grandparents to death.
158
00:08:12,041 --> 00:08:14,875
David Greenglass,
my mother's brother,
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00:08:14,959 --> 00:08:16,792
who was a machinist
at Los Alamos,
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00:08:16,875 --> 00:08:19,250
claimed that Julius
and Ethel Rosenberg
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00:08:19,333 --> 00:08:23,208
recruited him to be a spy
for the Soviet Union.
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00:08:23,291 --> 00:08:25,875
And that's where Roy Cohn
enters the scene.
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00:08:25,959 --> 00:08:29,458
He coached David Greenglass
to develop his testimony,
164
00:08:29,542 --> 00:08:32,250
examined David Greenglass
at the trial.
165
00:08:33,458 --> 00:08:35,500
The two of them together
were the reason
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00:08:35,583 --> 00:08:37,417
my parents were convicted,
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00:08:38,417 --> 00:08:40,583
and the reason
they were executed.
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00:08:52,792 --> 00:08:55,625
Think back when
you were a kid.
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00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,041
- Did you-- Were you aware of Roy Cohn?
- No.
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00:08:58,125 --> 00:08:59,792
In 1955, I read
171
00:08:59,875 --> 00:09:02,667
"The Judgment of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg" by John Wexley.
172
00:09:02,750 --> 00:09:05,208
And there was
the reference to Roy Cohn,
173
00:09:05,291 --> 00:09:07,834
and I'd already heard about
him because of McCarthy.
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00:09:07,917 --> 00:09:10,542
- And how old were you?
- 1955, I was 12.
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00:09:11,125 --> 00:09:13,667
- Wow. That's quite a book to read when you're 12.
- Yeah,
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00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:15,709
well, 'cause I didn't understand it much,
but it certainly--
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00:09:15,792 --> 00:09:17,208
the name Roy Cohn
stuck in my mind
178
00:09:17,291 --> 00:09:20,583
'cause I had seen the stuff on TV about McCarthy.
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00:09:20,667 --> 00:09:23,417
And I knew that McCarthy
was a "bad man,"
180
00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:25,458
not that I knew
any of the details.
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00:09:25,542 --> 00:09:27,458
♪ ♪
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00:09:27,542 --> 00:09:29,750
I had graduated from
college and law school,
183
00:09:29,834 --> 00:09:34,500
and gotten both degrees in
three years and four months.
184
00:09:34,583 --> 00:09:36,583
I went to
the US attorney's office.
185
00:09:36,667 --> 00:09:40,041
I was a kid.
I was not yet 20.
186
00:09:40,125 --> 00:09:42,875
I had prosecuted internal security cases, counterfeiting,
187
00:09:42,959 --> 00:09:47,458
narcotics, and I had
a minor name because of that.
188
00:09:47,542 --> 00:09:49,667
I examined David Greenglass.
189
00:09:49,750 --> 00:09:51,125
I was then...
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00:09:51,208 --> 00:09:53,125
a big, fat 23 years old
191
00:09:53,208 --> 00:09:55,542
and I sort of put
the case together.
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00:09:57,125 --> 00:09:58,542
I think that
the death sentence
193
00:09:58,625 --> 00:10:00,667
imposed by
Judge Irving R. Kaufman
194
00:10:00,750 --> 00:10:03,667
in the Atom Spy Trial had
a very strong deterrent effect.
195
00:10:03,750 --> 00:10:05,875
I think it's been
a very good year
196
00:10:05,959 --> 00:10:08,667
on the anti-Communist
front in this country.
197
00:10:09,875 --> 00:10:11,583
He was known as the guy
198
00:10:11,667 --> 00:10:14,542
who got the conviction and execution of the Rosenbergs.
199
00:10:14,834 --> 00:10:18,458
And I think he saw this as
a stepping stone to glory,
200
00:10:18,542 --> 00:10:19,792
and it worked.
201
00:10:19,875 --> 00:10:22,834
♪ ♪
202
00:10:25,458 --> 00:10:27,083
I became Chief Counsel
203
00:10:27,166 --> 00:10:29,458
for the Senate
Investigating Committee
204
00:10:29,542 --> 00:10:32,208
when Senator McCarthy
became chairman.
205
00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:38,792
Government agencies had
covered up security risks
206
00:10:38,875 --> 00:10:42,291
and had left people
in sensitive positions.
207
00:10:42,375 --> 00:10:45,333
Our job was
to show cover-ups.
208
00:10:45,417 --> 00:10:47,291
He had to always be
the tough guy in the room.
209
00:10:47,375 --> 00:10:50,000
He had to be the one
who was the most macho.
210
00:10:50,083 --> 00:10:53,375
Now, how to do it in the '50s?
Well, you went after Communists.
211
00:10:53,834 --> 00:10:55,208
I don't think you
understood the question.
212
00:10:55,291 --> 00:10:56,792
The question was,
do you know this man?
213
00:10:56,875 --> 00:10:59,000
Can you look at the picture and
tell us whether you know him?
214
00:10:59,083 --> 00:11:00,375
I would assume
the answer is yes or no.
215
00:11:00,458 --> 00:11:01,792
Can you answer
216
00:11:01,875 --> 00:11:03,625
the simple question of
whether he's a Communist?
217
00:11:03,709 --> 00:11:05,083
Your statements--
218
00:11:05,166 --> 00:11:06,417
Your statements about him
219
00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:09,667
have made it difficult for me--
220
00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:12,333
I want it put on the record--
- Officer, will you remove the man?
221
00:11:12,417 --> 00:11:14,625
- Will you remove him?
- I want--
222
00:11:18,291 --> 00:11:20,917
McCarthy didn't know anything
about Communists, really,
223
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,166
but Roy found
224
00:11:22,250 --> 00:11:23,834
by being on his shoulder,
225
00:11:23,917 --> 00:11:25,333
by pushing, pushing,
pushing him,
226
00:11:25,417 --> 00:11:27,208
he was a mover and shaker.
227
00:11:27,291 --> 00:11:30,375
He didn't wanna be in McCarthy's seat being the Senator,
228
00:11:30,458 --> 00:11:33,792
but he wanted to be the guy
behind the power brokers.
229
00:11:33,875 --> 00:11:35,959
The last way to be
politically ambitious
230
00:11:36,041 --> 00:11:39,041
as a Jewish New York Democrat,
which I was and am,
231
00:11:39,125 --> 00:11:41,375
is by becoming counsel
for Senator McCarthy,
232
00:11:41,458 --> 00:11:43,500
so I was hardly down
there for any...
233
00:11:43,583 --> 00:11:46,166
political ambition.
234
00:11:46,250 --> 00:11:48,709
I was down there to do
more in this type of work,
235
00:11:48,792 --> 00:11:52,750
in which I believed then,
and which I believe now.
236
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,625
Roy was a hero to many...
237
00:11:57,875 --> 00:12:00,041
who had seen Communism up close,
238
00:12:00,125 --> 00:12:03,000
as was the case of myself.
239
00:12:03,083 --> 00:12:04,709
For me,
Communism was far worse
240
00:12:04,792 --> 00:12:06,583
than any--
anything I'd ever seen.
241
00:12:07,083 --> 00:12:09,291
I could imagine the worst thing
you could be was a Communist
242
00:12:09,375 --> 00:12:10,709
because you were a danger to--
243
00:12:10,792 --> 00:12:12,750
To our way of life,
to our way of thinking,
244
00:12:12,834 --> 00:12:16,583
and Roy was brought up
in that climate.
245
00:12:17,625 --> 00:12:19,625
I imagine this guy
246
00:12:19,709 --> 00:12:22,041
coming of age
during World War II,
247
00:12:22,125 --> 00:12:23,917
and the terror
248
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,166
of what would we happen
when we ceased to be
249
00:12:26,250 --> 00:12:29,208
the only country in the world
that had nuclear weapons.
250
00:12:29,291 --> 00:12:32,542
The Communist Party
is not a political party.
251
00:12:32,625 --> 00:12:34,959
It's a criminal conspiracy.
252
00:12:35,041 --> 00:12:38,375
Its object is the overthrow of the government of the United States
253
00:12:38,458 --> 00:12:40,250
by force and violence
254
00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:41,917
as soon as
the right time arrives.
255
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,583
Yes, they're
traitors to America.
256
00:12:43,667 --> 00:12:45,875
Why don't we do
something about it?
257
00:12:45,959 --> 00:12:48,917
They are enemies!
They are not Americans!
258
00:12:51,291 --> 00:12:54,166
They are homosexuals!
They're Communists!
259
00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:56,041
They're Communists!
260
00:12:56,125 --> 00:13:00,291
The two groups that
were initially tagged
261
00:13:00,375 --> 00:13:02,208
with the red taint
262
00:13:02,291 --> 00:13:04,709
more than any other groups
in this country
263
00:13:04,792 --> 00:13:08,500
were homosexuals and Jews.
264
00:13:08,583 --> 00:13:11,625
There's another group...
265
00:13:11,709 --> 00:13:14,458
about which I hesitate to...
266
00:13:14,542 --> 00:13:18,750
talk, but I think the picture
isn't complete unless we do.
267
00:13:18,834 --> 00:13:21,250
Some of them have that
unusual affliction
268
00:13:21,333 --> 00:13:23,583
because of no fault
of their own.
269
00:13:23,667 --> 00:13:26,542
Most, of course,
because they're morally weak.
270
00:13:26,625 --> 00:13:28,959
♪ ♪
271
00:13:29,041 --> 00:13:32,458
The pervert is easy
prey to the blackmailer.
272
00:13:32,542 --> 00:13:36,458
It follows that if blackmailers can exhort money from these individuals,
273
00:13:36,542 --> 00:13:40,417
espionage agents can use
the same type of pressure.
274
00:13:41,417 --> 00:13:44,083
They're dangerous
to this country.
275
00:13:49,083 --> 00:13:52,792
We know that Communists
writing about the United States
276
00:13:52,875 --> 00:13:54,917
are not giving the true picture.
277
00:13:56,250 --> 00:13:58,083
And that is why
we don't believe
278
00:13:58,166 --> 00:14:01,959
that Amerika Haus,
which is supposed to give a true picture
279
00:14:02,041 --> 00:14:03,333
of life in the United States,
280
00:14:03,417 --> 00:14:06,083
should contain books
written by Communists,
281
00:14:06,166 --> 00:14:08,500
who are dedicated to
wiping the United States
282
00:14:08,583 --> 00:14:10,083
off the face of the Earth
283
00:14:10,166 --> 00:14:12,875
and substituting the freedom
we have in America
284
00:14:12,959 --> 00:14:15,500
for the spiritual
and mental enslavement
285
00:14:15,583 --> 00:14:18,166
you have in the Soviet Union.
286
00:14:18,250 --> 00:14:20,250
The McCarthy Committee
was now charging that
287
00:14:20,333 --> 00:14:22,083
State Department
libraries overseas
288
00:14:22,166 --> 00:14:24,542
contained subversive volumes.
289
00:14:24,625 --> 00:14:26,500
Cohn and his friend,
G. David Schine,
290
00:14:26,583 --> 00:14:27,834
the young Harvard graduate
291
00:14:27,917 --> 00:14:29,583
and heir to
the Schine Hotel fortune,
292
00:14:29,667 --> 00:14:33,417
were dispatched on a tour
of our libraries overseas.
293
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,625
♪ ♪
294
00:14:38,041 --> 00:14:41,333
We suddenly became the enemy
295
00:14:41,417 --> 00:14:45,041
of McCarthy and his cohorts.
296
00:14:45,125 --> 00:14:48,667
They said, "Do you have
"The Maltese Falcon"?"
297
00:14:48,750 --> 00:14:51,834
I said "Yes, they're right
over here in the library."
298
00:14:51,917 --> 00:14:53,542
And Cohn turned and says,
299
00:14:53,625 --> 00:14:56,208
"You see? Nothing
but Communist books
300
00:14:56,291 --> 00:14:57,959
here in the library."
301
00:14:59,083 --> 00:15:01,834
They didn't really
succeed very much
302
00:15:01,917 --> 00:15:04,375
on this particular junket.
303
00:15:04,458 --> 00:15:06,709
But they became notorious.
304
00:15:14,041 --> 00:15:15,542
They were two kids
305
00:15:15,625 --> 00:15:18,542
that were encouraged
by McCarthy and others
306
00:15:18,625 --> 00:15:20,959
to go make this global trip.
307
00:15:22,291 --> 00:15:24,125
And people who encouraged
them were adults
308
00:15:24,208 --> 00:15:27,458
who didn't realize how
bad it was gonna look.
309
00:15:27,542 --> 00:15:29,917
There were stories
that I had heard
310
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,125
of them sort of chasing
each other through
311
00:15:32,208 --> 00:15:35,000
the Ritz in Paris
in their towels.
312
00:15:39,583 --> 00:15:42,792
After Cohn and Schine
came back from Europe,
313
00:15:42,875 --> 00:15:45,083
Schine got drafted.
314
00:15:45,166 --> 00:15:47,959
He was just a GI,
just a buck private.
315
00:15:49,917 --> 00:15:52,709
Roy used his position
with McCarthy,
316
00:15:52,792 --> 00:15:54,709
and tried to get the army
317
00:15:54,792 --> 00:15:57,667
to give Schine
favorite treatment.
318
00:16:04,542 --> 00:16:06,083
Senator McCarthy said,
319
00:16:06,166 --> 00:16:09,291
"Roy thinks that Dave
320
00:16:09,375 --> 00:16:11,625
"ought to be a General
321
00:16:11,709 --> 00:16:14,166
"and operate from a penthouse
322
00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:17,083
on the Waldorf Astoria,"
or words to that effect.
323
00:16:18,583 --> 00:16:21,250
I asked him what would happen
if Schine got overseas duty.
324
00:16:21,333 --> 00:16:24,125
He responded
with vigor and force,
325
00:16:24,208 --> 00:16:26,041
"We'll wreck the army."
326
00:16:26,125 --> 00:16:28,583
I never knew what hung
on Schine's walls--
327
00:16:28,667 --> 00:16:30,625
You did know what
hung on Schine's wall
328
00:16:30,709 --> 00:16:32,291
when that was
handed to you, sir.
329
00:16:32,375 --> 00:16:34,834
Did you think this
came from a pixie?
330
00:16:37,750 --> 00:16:40,250
Counsel, to my
benefit, define--
331
00:16:40,333 --> 00:16:42,375
I think he might be an expert on that...
- Yeah.
332
00:16:42,458 --> 00:16:44,917
- ...on what a pixie is.
- Yes, I should say...
333
00:16:45,166 --> 00:16:48,083
I should say,
Mr. Senator, that a pixie
334
00:16:48,166 --> 00:16:50,667
is a close relative of a fairy.
335
00:16:54,375 --> 00:16:55,709
Trying to find out why...
336
00:16:55,792 --> 00:16:57,875
Roy Cohn risked
being exposed
337
00:16:57,959 --> 00:17:00,417
on national television
as a pixie,
338
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:02,583
the close relationship
to a fairy.
339
00:17:02,667 --> 00:17:06,333
He went after
the US Armed Forces
340
00:17:06,417 --> 00:17:08,625
because he wanted
his boyfriend back.
341
00:17:08,709 --> 00:17:10,792
And he dragged poor, drunk,
342
00:17:10,875 --> 00:17:13,417
stupid McCarthy along with him,
343
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:16,917
into this debacle
for the two of them.
344
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,417
♪ ♪
345
00:17:31,083 --> 00:17:34,250
Everybody thought he
was finished after that.
346
00:17:34,333 --> 00:17:38,000
This little snot-nosed 26-year-old who was grilling people.
347
00:17:38,083 --> 00:17:39,709
They thought he was just
gonna be some has-been,
348
00:17:39,792 --> 00:17:41,667
and everybody was gonna
dance on his grave.
349
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:44,166
And, you know,
from the ashes, he rose.
350
00:17:52,625 --> 00:17:54,542
By the time you
returned to New York,
351
00:17:54,625 --> 00:17:56,500
after leaving
McCarthy in '54,
352
00:17:56,583 --> 00:17:58,834
there was quite a lucrative
law practice waiting.
353
00:17:58,917 --> 00:18:01,208
Oh, I suppose through
354
00:18:01,291 --> 00:18:04,333
my derivative friendship
with my father's friends,
355
00:18:04,417 --> 00:18:05,709
who had known him
in the course of
356
00:18:05,792 --> 00:18:08,333
his quarter of
a century on the bench.
357
00:18:08,417 --> 00:18:09,709
That brought me together
358
00:18:09,792 --> 00:18:12,709
with the top Democratic
leadership in New York.
359
00:18:14,041 --> 00:18:17,208
And from there on,
I steadily worked my way up.
360
00:18:17,291 --> 00:18:20,250
♪ ♪
361
00:18:26,792 --> 00:18:28,917
There's always that
one event, that one party
362
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,125
where some people want to be,
and they wanna be seen there.
363
00:18:32,208 --> 00:18:34,000
The limousines
came to the back door
364
00:18:34,083 --> 00:18:35,542
of Studio 54 tonight.
365
00:18:35,625 --> 00:18:38,208
Roy was celebrating his
birthday at a black tie affair
366
00:18:38,291 --> 00:18:40,166
for over 200
of his close friends,
367
00:18:40,250 --> 00:18:42,458
thrown by close friend
Steve Rubell.
368
00:18:42,542 --> 00:18:44,917
Some of Cohn's friends included former Mayor Abe Beame
369
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,625
Deputy Mayor
Herman Badillo,
370
00:18:46,709 --> 00:18:48,959
and Brooklyn Democratic
leader Meade Esposito.
371
00:18:49,041 --> 00:18:51,625
I was here for his last
year's birthday party,
372
00:18:51,709 --> 00:18:53,750
and it was really fun,
so I had to come again.
373
00:18:53,834 --> 00:18:56,875
Why does Joey Adams come to
say happy birthday to Roy Cohn?
374
00:18:56,959 --> 00:18:58,083
I wanna tell you something.
375
00:18:58,166 --> 00:18:59,458
Roy has been
my buddy for a long time,
376
00:18:59,542 --> 00:19:01,875
and I don't need him.
I'm not getting a divorce.
377
00:19:01,959 --> 00:19:04,625
I'm not a member of the mafia.
I don't sniff coke.
378
00:19:04,709 --> 00:19:07,000
I don't need him,
and yet he's my friend.
379
00:19:07,333 --> 00:19:08,959
They know I'll be there,
380
00:19:09,041 --> 00:19:11,458
and I always know that
they'll be there, so it's...
381
00:19:11,542 --> 00:19:13,500
The people here tonight
really aren't a question of
382
00:19:13,583 --> 00:19:15,291
who did what for whom.
383
00:19:15,375 --> 00:19:16,792
It's just a question of
384
00:19:16,875 --> 00:19:19,875
who's meant what to whom
over a long period of time.
385
00:19:20,709 --> 00:19:22,500
That's him at his
Greenwich house.
386
00:19:22,583 --> 00:19:25,792
- Oh...
- Being his usual notorious, pernicious self.
387
00:19:25,875 --> 00:19:29,083
- Yes, indeed.
- I think a lot of people have
388
00:19:29,166 --> 00:19:30,709
family members they
don't wanna talk about.
389
00:19:30,792 --> 00:19:33,875
Family members who were--
have some evil, but he was...
390
00:19:33,959 --> 00:19:36,041
he was a personification
of evil.
391
00:19:36,125 --> 00:19:37,834
- Absolutely.
- Yep.
392
00:19:37,917 --> 00:19:40,709
- Every family has its Roy Cohn.
- Oh, I hope not.
393
00:19:40,792 --> 00:19:45,000
The world would be a terrible
place if that happened.
394
00:19:45,083 --> 00:19:47,375
I grew up in a family
where our family activity
395
00:19:47,458 --> 00:19:49,625
was to march against
the Vietnam War, so
396
00:19:49,709 --> 00:19:52,333
I was very conscious of the fact that my parents,
you know,
397
00:19:52,417 --> 00:19:55,166
were very upset about
the Rosenbergs, about McCarthy,
398
00:19:55,250 --> 00:19:57,000
about all these
things that Roy was--
399
00:19:57,083 --> 00:19:59,917
was intricately involved in.
400
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,542
But I was
a budding journalist,
401
00:20:01,625 --> 00:20:03,125
and I paid attention to him.
402
00:20:03,208 --> 00:20:05,417
♪ ♪
403
00:20:08,083 --> 00:20:09,542
Roy was the outer borough kid,
404
00:20:09,625 --> 00:20:12,959
an only child who
grew up in the Bronx.
405
00:20:13,041 --> 00:20:15,166
Roy's mother was Dora Marcus,
406
00:20:15,250 --> 00:20:18,166
who married Al Cohn,
who became a judge.
407
00:20:18,250 --> 00:20:21,208
His dad was a very powerful
Democrat in the Bronx,
408
00:20:21,291 --> 00:20:23,792
who mingled with
Democrats all the time.
409
00:20:23,875 --> 00:20:27,917
And yet, Roy somehow
morphed into a Republican.
410
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,583
Somehow morphed into
arch-conservative.
411
00:20:31,625 --> 00:20:33,250
I think Roy grew up
with this notion
412
00:20:33,333 --> 00:20:35,375
he had to do better
than his father.
413
00:20:35,458 --> 00:20:37,333
He had to be more important,
414
00:20:37,417 --> 00:20:39,500
more impressive,
more in the news.
415
00:20:39,583 --> 00:20:41,208
♪ ♪
416
00:20:41,291 --> 00:20:43,458
And then he lived
with this specter
417
00:20:43,542 --> 00:20:45,041
of his Uncle Bernie,
418
00:20:45,125 --> 00:20:48,083
who was involved in
a savings and loan problem,
419
00:20:48,166 --> 00:20:49,917
going to Sing Sing.
420
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,917
He always talked about going to see Uncle Bernie in Sing Sing,
421
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,125
and that was a scarring,
scary memory for him.
422
00:20:57,959 --> 00:21:00,375
I mean, I can't help
thinking about he then sent
423
00:21:00,458 --> 00:21:01,792
my grandparents to Sing Sing.
424
00:21:01,875 --> 00:21:04,208
He sent your grandparents--
I'm sitting here,
425
00:21:04,291 --> 00:21:06,417
talking to you
about my cousin,
426
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:08,000
who sent your
grandparents to Sing Sing,
427
00:21:08,083 --> 00:21:10,417
after watching my grandfather
428
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:13,000
go to Sing Sing and be ruined.
429
00:21:13,083 --> 00:21:16,709
Roy's lesson was, "That's
never gonna happen to me.
430
00:21:16,792 --> 00:21:18,792
I'm never gonna
be the victim."
431
00:21:18,875 --> 00:21:22,000
♪ ♪
432
00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:27,208
Do you remember
when we went to DC
433
00:21:27,291 --> 00:21:30,542
and went to see the AIDS quilt?
- Yes.
434
00:21:30,625 --> 00:21:34,000
We walk in from
a particular location,
435
00:21:34,083 --> 00:21:35,625
and right in front of us,
436
00:21:35,709 --> 00:21:38,875
the first quilt
we see is Roy Cohn.
437
00:21:43,375 --> 00:21:45,583
- It was crazy.
- It really was.
438
00:21:45,667 --> 00:21:48,083
Thousands of panels and...
439
00:21:48,166 --> 00:21:51,291
probably, you know, I mean,
any number of ways
440
00:21:51,375 --> 00:21:53,125
- we could've come onto the mall.
- Absolutely.
441
00:21:53,208 --> 00:21:54,375
- We couldn't believe it.
- And it--
442
00:21:54,458 --> 00:21:56,583
It did feel like a--
some strange message.
443
00:21:56,667 --> 00:21:59,542
And what's interesting
about that is, of course,
444
00:21:59,625 --> 00:22:01,875
if we had come someways else,
we might not have even
445
00:22:01,959 --> 00:22:04,208
- known he had a panel.
- Right.
446
00:22:04,291 --> 00:22:05,792
♪ ♪
447
00:22:05,875 --> 00:22:09,375
It was like a holy shit
moment.
448
00:22:09,458 --> 00:22:13,000
It's almost like God
wanted us to find
449
00:22:13,083 --> 00:22:16,375
Roy Cohn's panel to remind us
450
00:22:16,458 --> 00:22:18,041
that we were still
in the middle
451
00:22:18,125 --> 00:22:20,709
of this unbelievable battle.
452
00:22:30,959 --> 00:22:34,583
I see the universe, Joe,
453
00:22:35,417 --> 00:22:38,667
as a kind of sandstorm
in outer space,
454
00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:42,041
with winds of mega
hurricane velocity.
455
00:22:42,875 --> 00:22:45,041
But instead of
grains of sand,
456
00:22:45,125 --> 00:22:48,333
it's shards
and splinters of glass.
457
00:22:48,417 --> 00:22:51,083
I think that
the character of Roy Cohn
458
00:22:51,166 --> 00:22:52,333
jumped out at me
459
00:22:52,417 --> 00:22:55,667
because he was
not only Jewish
460
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:58,625
but-- like me,
but also gay like me.
461
00:22:58,709 --> 00:23:00,959
I have...
- And he also seemed to be
462
00:23:01,041 --> 00:23:03,500
one of the worst human
beings that ever lived.
463
00:23:03,583 --> 00:23:06,208
Listen, Ailene, you think
I'm the only goddamn lawyer
464
00:23:06,291 --> 00:23:09,333
in history ever
missed a court date?!
465
00:23:10,041 --> 00:23:12,709
Don't make such
a big fucking-- Hold.
466
00:23:12,792 --> 00:23:14,417
You hag!
467
00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:17,000
Most people, when they
think of Roy Cohn,
468
00:23:17,083 --> 00:23:19,709
think of the character
in the play.
469
00:23:19,792 --> 00:23:22,667
And it's only now that people
470
00:23:22,750 --> 00:23:25,458
really are more
aware of the real...
471
00:23:25,542 --> 00:23:27,208
person Roy Cohn.
472
00:23:27,291 --> 00:23:30,417
I think Mr. Vidal has lapsed
into an uncharacteristic modesty
473
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:33,375
and I don't think he should.
He's very articulate...
474
00:23:33,458 --> 00:23:34,500
On talk shows,
475
00:23:34,583 --> 00:23:36,417
he's nerdy and creepy,
476
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:39,166
but very sort of
lawyerly, polite,
477
00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:41,583
everyone is Mister and Missus.
478
00:23:41,667 --> 00:23:45,333
But, in private, I think
he was very different.
479
00:23:51,625 --> 00:23:53,375
I first met Roy,
480
00:23:53,458 --> 00:23:56,542
as everybody did in
those days, in El Morocco
481
00:23:56,625 --> 00:23:58,166
in '56.
482
00:23:58,834 --> 00:24:01,208
And he, of course,
was famous by then.
483
00:24:02,250 --> 00:24:04,250
El Morocco was the chicest
484
00:24:04,333 --> 00:24:07,125
and most exclusive
nightclub of the time.
485
00:24:07,208 --> 00:24:11,917
It was the kind of place where only very high society went,
486
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,208
plus some loose characters
487
00:24:15,291 --> 00:24:17,625
who were welcome
because it gave
488
00:24:17,709 --> 00:24:20,333
sort of some spice
to the place.
489
00:24:20,417 --> 00:24:23,959
That's where Roy made
all his contacts.
490
00:24:24,041 --> 00:24:27,542
He would come in with those hooded lids,
looking so ominous.
491
00:24:27,625 --> 00:24:32,458
He was like Dracula coming out of his box at midnight.
492
00:24:34,542 --> 00:24:37,625
What came out of the McCarthy period,
even its disasters,
493
00:24:37,709 --> 00:24:41,125
was the feeling that I was different from most other lawyers.
494
00:24:41,208 --> 00:24:43,291
People didn't perceive
me as a typical
495
00:24:43,375 --> 00:24:46,125
bill-by-the-hour,
do-nothing shyster,
496
00:24:46,208 --> 00:24:48,458
but as someone
who can be trusted.
497
00:24:48,542 --> 00:24:51,792
When people call Roy Cohn
to solicit his services,
498
00:24:51,875 --> 00:24:53,375
what are they looking for?
What are they buying?
499
00:24:53,458 --> 00:24:56,291
I think a principal thing
they're buying is scare value.
500
00:24:56,375 --> 00:24:58,250
It was not in his briefcase.
501
00:24:58,333 --> 00:25:00,875
They do not allege it
was in his briefcase.
502
00:25:00,959 --> 00:25:03,000
I've read the complaint,
and I was in court,
503
00:25:03,083 --> 00:25:04,250
and you weren't.
504
00:25:04,333 --> 00:25:05,959
People hired Roy
505
00:25:06,041 --> 00:25:08,083
because Roy was
without conscience,
506
00:25:08,166 --> 00:25:10,417
and Roy would get
them a victory
507
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:12,250
because he knew no rules.
508
00:25:12,333 --> 00:25:14,542
He would do whatever
he needed to, to win.
509
00:25:14,625 --> 00:25:17,500
♪ ♪
510
00:25:17,583 --> 00:25:18,875
It has been mentioned
511
00:25:18,959 --> 00:25:21,417
in the media that
you have represented,
512
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:23,041
or continue to represent,
513
00:25:23,125 --> 00:25:25,583
- the world's richest men.
- Okay.
514
00:25:25,667 --> 00:25:28,125
Now, there's a prominent
New York real estate tycoon,
515
00:25:28,208 --> 00:25:29,959
a very, very young man
516
00:25:30,041 --> 00:25:31,458
who's, uh, who's made it.
517
00:25:31,542 --> 00:25:33,417
I mean, he started off
with a few million dollars,
518
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:35,083
I suppose,
that his father had made.
519
00:25:35,166 --> 00:25:37,041
Maybe 10 million,
20 million...
520
00:25:37,125 --> 00:25:38,750
- Can we identify him?
- Donald-- Donald Trump.
521
00:25:38,834 --> 00:25:40,250
I think that's
fairly transparent.
522
00:25:40,333 --> 00:25:41,333
Everyone knows who it is.
523
00:25:41,417 --> 00:25:44,083
Donald-- Donald Trump.
524
00:25:44,166 --> 00:25:45,834
Is it fair to say at this
point that he's the most
525
00:25:45,917 --> 00:25:47,625
powerful real estate
guy in New York?
526
00:25:47,709 --> 00:25:49,458
I think it is.
527
00:25:50,583 --> 00:25:52,375
His currency was money,
528
00:25:52,458 --> 00:25:54,333
but he was a boy from Queens,
529
00:25:54,417 --> 00:25:56,709
and he was a sheltered
boy from Queens.
530
00:25:56,792 --> 00:25:58,959
He didn't have any
access to the big city.
531
00:25:59,041 --> 00:26:02,083
So, at first, Roy brought
him into New York.
532
00:26:02,166 --> 00:26:03,875
I met him at a supper club,
533
00:26:03,959 --> 00:26:06,166
which I rarely go to.
I'm not too much of a night man
534
00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:07,875
because I have so much
work to do during the day,
535
00:26:07,959 --> 00:26:10,041
and I guess the same
can be said of Donald.
536
00:26:10,125 --> 00:26:12,041
He hates anything social,
537
00:26:12,125 --> 00:26:15,959
and he really doesn't like anything political very much either.
538
00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:17,750
One night, at Le Club,
539
00:26:17,834 --> 00:26:19,875
we were seated at tables
next to each other.
540
00:26:19,959 --> 00:26:21,792
He said,
"I've spent two days
541
00:26:21,875 --> 00:26:23,709
"with these
establishment law firms
542
00:26:23,792 --> 00:26:26,750
about a case we have."
It was a civil rights case.
543
00:26:26,834 --> 00:26:28,750
He says, "I followed your career,
and you seem--
544
00:26:28,834 --> 00:26:31,583
"You're a little bit
crazy like I am, and
545
00:26:31,667 --> 00:26:35,208
you stand up to the establishment.
Can I come see you?"
546
00:26:35,291 --> 00:26:37,917
This was a lawsuit against numerous landlords in New York,
547
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,583
and I didn't like it
because it wasn't true.
548
00:26:40,667 --> 00:26:43,000
We've never discriminated.
We don't believe in it.
549
00:26:43,083 --> 00:26:45,125
And I just thought,
on a principal ground,
550
00:26:45,208 --> 00:26:48,917
I should-- I should fight,
and other landlords didn't.
551
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,625
Trump was delighted by
Roy's attorney's response
552
00:26:52,709 --> 00:26:54,667
to this suit against
the two Trumps,
553
00:26:54,750 --> 00:26:58,125
and that was to counter-sue
the US Justice Department.
554
00:26:58,208 --> 00:27:00,041
Roy called them Nazis!
555
00:27:00,125 --> 00:27:02,667
Roy called them
the Ku Klux Klan!
556
00:27:02,750 --> 00:27:05,500
You know, but the whole
point was to resist,
557
00:27:05,583 --> 00:27:07,041
to throw it back at them.
558
00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:10,750
Trump fell in love with that.
Never admit that you're wrong.
559
00:27:10,834 --> 00:27:12,458
And the suit was settled.
560
00:27:12,542 --> 00:27:14,667
You serve a complaint,
start an action,
561
00:27:14,750 --> 00:27:16,291
and then
there's a settlement...
562
00:27:16,375 --> 00:27:18,291
Roy settled
563
00:27:18,375 --> 00:27:22,917
65-75 % of all his cases
out of court.
564
00:27:24,208 --> 00:27:26,625
He used his influence
with magazines,
565
00:27:26,709 --> 00:27:28,917
newspapers,
and individual journalists
566
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,583
to get people to
settle lawsuits.
567
00:27:32,291 --> 00:27:35,375
The fear of publicity can
be a very important factor
568
00:27:35,458 --> 00:27:37,083
in inducing a settlement,
569
00:27:37,166 --> 00:27:38,208
and we'd all be crazy
570
00:27:38,291 --> 00:27:41,667
if we didn't acknowledge
that as a fact.
571
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:45,375
Roy grew to understand
he could use me
572
00:27:45,792 --> 00:27:47,875
when I joined the
"New York Post."
573
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:52,625
There were stories he was doing,
574
00:27:52,709 --> 00:27:54,583
and it would have served him
575
00:27:54,667 --> 00:27:57,667
if I would take care of
the people he didn't like.
576
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:59,834
How did he pull that off?
577
00:27:59,917 --> 00:28:01,667
By asking me.
578
00:28:01,750 --> 00:28:04,291
- Oh.
- And I did it
579
00:28:04,375 --> 00:28:06,083
because he was my friend,
580
00:28:06,166 --> 00:28:07,583
so it's loyalty.
581
00:28:07,667 --> 00:28:09,917
♪ ♪
582
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,375
Look,
583
00:28:11,458 --> 00:28:13,333
a good part of my life,
584
00:28:13,417 --> 00:28:15,834
legally and extra-legally,
585
00:28:15,917 --> 00:28:19,959
consists of having friends
in all walks of life.
586
00:28:24,083 --> 00:28:26,291
For example, the way
I met Rupert Murdoch.
587
00:28:26,375 --> 00:28:29,291
His, uh, when they wanted
a front-page interview
588
00:28:29,375 --> 00:28:32,709
with Carmine Galante, the Godfather.
- Mm-hmm.
589
00:28:32,792 --> 00:28:34,417
I never heard
of a Godfather
590
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:36,583
giving a newspaper
interview before.
591
00:28:36,667 --> 00:28:39,208
The metropolitan editor of "The Post" called me and he said,
592
00:28:39,291 --> 00:28:40,667
"We really want
this interview,
593
00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:42,208
"and the boss says
that he's read about you,
594
00:28:42,291 --> 00:28:43,750
"and if you put your
mind to something,
595
00:28:43,834 --> 00:28:45,041
you can get it done."
596
00:28:45,125 --> 00:28:47,166
- Did you do it?
- Yes.
597
00:28:52,333 --> 00:28:54,166
He wanted to
make himself this
598
00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:56,083
indispensable power broker,
599
00:28:56,166 --> 00:28:58,250
sort of like
the original fixer.
600
00:29:00,875 --> 00:29:03,875
There was no clear boundary
between his personal life
601
00:29:03,959 --> 00:29:06,834
and his professional life.
It all kind of overflowed.
602
00:29:06,917 --> 00:29:10,208
♪ ♪
603
00:29:10,291 --> 00:29:13,959
The townhouse was
this combination of residence
604
00:29:14,041 --> 00:29:17,166
and place of business.
605
00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:20,917
Upstairs, there were
floors of offices.
606
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,959
Second and third floors
were his apartment.
607
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:28,750
And then, way up top,
was the roof deck.
608
00:29:28,834 --> 00:29:31,583
He would sit up there,
with his shirt off,
609
00:29:31,667 --> 00:29:35,166
and he would even receive clients while he was doing this.
610
00:29:36,959 --> 00:29:38,750
I assumed that
this law firm
611
00:29:38,834 --> 00:29:40,792
had been in existence
for many years,
612
00:29:40,875 --> 00:29:43,375
but his name
was not on the masthead.
613
00:29:46,125 --> 00:29:47,583
And my understanding is that
614
00:29:47,667 --> 00:29:50,917
he had divested himself
of all his assets,
615
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,458
so that he could not be sued.
616
00:29:52,542 --> 00:29:55,583
Everything was
owned by the firm.
617
00:29:55,667 --> 00:29:58,792
It's true that you personally
own nothing at all?
618
00:29:58,875 --> 00:30:01,041
100 % true.
619
00:30:01,125 --> 00:30:02,792
Reason number one,
obviously,
620
00:30:02,875 --> 00:30:04,917
is my dispute with
Internal Revenue.
621
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,166
So, I made up mind I was not
going to have bank accounts.
622
00:30:08,250 --> 00:30:09,500
I carry cash.
623
00:30:09,583 --> 00:30:12,375
I also have no credit cards.
624
00:30:12,458 --> 00:30:13,959
You live very, very well.
625
00:30:14,041 --> 00:30:15,959
You have jets, limousines,
626
00:30:16,041 --> 00:30:18,417
- yachts at your disposal.
- Now, wait a minute.
627
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:20,208
I have very rich
friends and clients
628
00:30:20,291 --> 00:30:21,333
who have confidence in me.
629
00:30:21,417 --> 00:30:22,875
I can name you
10 right now
630
00:30:22,959 --> 00:30:25,125
I could call up and say,
"Look, I hate to trouble you,
631
00:30:25,208 --> 00:30:27,083
"but I'm having
a few problems.
632
00:30:27,166 --> 00:30:29,750
"Would it be convenient
for you to loan me
633
00:30:29,834 --> 00:30:31,750
a large amount of money?"
634
00:30:31,834 --> 00:30:33,792
The answer
would be, instantly,
635
00:30:33,875 --> 00:30:35,792
"Yes."
636
00:30:35,875 --> 00:30:39,333
Roy Cohn manages
to spend, I guess,
637
00:30:39,417 --> 00:30:41,959
a half a million dollars
a year as expenses,
638
00:30:42,041 --> 00:30:43,417
without paying
a penny in tax on it.
639
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:46,041
When we talk expenses,
now that isn't so.
640
00:30:46,125 --> 00:30:49,667
First of all, I have paid
an astronomical amount of taxes.
641
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:51,875
I, very frankly,
don't wanna earn
642
00:30:51,959 --> 00:30:54,000
any more than I have to earn
643
00:30:54,083 --> 00:30:57,834
because I don't like
the way this country
644
00:30:57,917 --> 00:31:00,917
punishes the workers,
the middle class,
645
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,834
the blue collar people,
the white collar people.
646
00:31:03,917 --> 00:31:06,166
I think it's lousy.
647
00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:11,417
Roy Cohn wanted to die
owing the IRS millions.
648
00:31:12,792 --> 00:31:14,583
He never paid his bills.
649
00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:25,625
Here we have a bill from a lease
for 1983 Porsche Cabriolet.
650
00:31:25,709 --> 00:31:29,208
"This vehicle was
repossessed on 4/30/84
651
00:31:29,291 --> 00:31:31,875
for reason of three
months delinquency."
652
00:31:31,959 --> 00:31:34,041
In Roy's handwriting,
"Lillian," one of the women
653
00:31:34,125 --> 00:31:35,667
who worked at
Saxe, Bacon, Bolan,
654
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:39,041
"Please try to close it
out with no payment."
655
00:31:39,542 --> 00:31:43,375
The Four Seasons Clift Hotel
in San Francisco.
656
00:31:43,458 --> 00:31:47,083
Roy's handwriting.
"Not necessary to pay."
657
00:31:47,166 --> 00:31:53,959
Unpaid laundry bill of
$1,598.21.
658
00:31:54,041 --> 00:31:57,709
The 21 Club,
10 and a half grand.
659
00:31:57,792 --> 00:32:01,291
Sheridan Hotel,
1,100 bucks in Hawaii.
660
00:32:02,166 --> 00:32:05,583
Did any of these establishments
really go after him?
661
00:32:05,667 --> 00:32:08,250
Oh yeah! There were
suits against him, sure.
662
00:32:08,333 --> 00:32:10,583
But, you know, did they collect?
663
00:32:10,667 --> 00:32:13,792
♪ ♪
664
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,959
Roy wanted to have some
665
00:32:18,041 --> 00:32:20,917
Indonesian
and Ming artifacts.
666
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,583
I have a dealer here.
667
00:32:22,667 --> 00:32:25,417
So, Joey said,
"Well, let's take Roy."
668
00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:29,583
And I said, "No,
not good because Roy doesn't pay his bills."
669
00:32:29,667 --> 00:32:32,458
Roy wanted to go anyway,
670
00:32:32,542 --> 00:32:35,625
and he went, and he
picked out three items.
671
00:32:35,709 --> 00:32:38,208
It was about $70,000.
672
00:32:38,458 --> 00:32:40,834
Six months went by,
he hadn't paid.
673
00:32:40,917 --> 00:32:43,208
Finally, the dealer came
up to me and he says,
674
00:32:43,291 --> 00:32:46,208
"Ay, your friend, he don't--
he don't pay nothin'."
675
00:32:46,291 --> 00:32:48,542
And I said, "Not to worry."
676
00:32:49,917 --> 00:32:52,083
I brought my car
down there,
677
00:32:52,166 --> 00:32:54,542
and I went and knocked
on the door.
678
00:32:54,625 --> 00:32:57,041
Elvira was his
longtime housekeeper,
679
00:32:57,125 --> 00:32:59,417
and she knew me for years
and years and years.
680
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:00,959
And I said, "I came
to collect something."
681
00:33:01,041 --> 00:33:03,458
She says, "Go ahead.
Take whatever you want."
682
00:33:03,542 --> 00:33:05,125
So, I went in
with my driver,
683
00:33:05,208 --> 00:33:08,667
and we took out
the three pieces of art,
684
00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:11,542
put them in the car,
and brought them back to the dealer.
685
00:33:11,834 --> 00:33:15,166
That night,
he took me to dinner.
686
00:33:15,250 --> 00:33:17,166
He never mentioned it.
687
00:33:17,250 --> 00:33:20,208
He never brought it up ever.
688
00:33:21,041 --> 00:33:23,917
As we walked out,
he said to the maitre d',
689
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,709
"The check is in the mail."
690
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,083
♪ ♪
691
00:33:35,291 --> 00:33:39,083
I'd been very active in
judicial reform politics.
692
00:33:39,792 --> 00:33:42,667
So, in 1979,
693
00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:45,792
I decided that we needed
a task force on Roy Cohn.
694
00:33:46,333 --> 00:33:48,417
A lot of people knew
that what Roy Cohn had
695
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:50,959
was enormous power
with the media.
696
00:33:51,250 --> 00:33:54,667
And we were trying to create
a counterweight, essentially,
697
00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:58,500
and also document what was
really going on with Roy Cohn.
698
00:33:58,583 --> 00:34:00,959
♪ ♪
699
00:34:01,041 --> 00:34:03,792
Roy Cohn was
a hidden investor
700
00:34:03,875 --> 00:34:05,709
in a series of businesses
701
00:34:05,792 --> 00:34:09,250
that dealed with
all cash primarily.
702
00:34:09,333 --> 00:34:11,500
Among them was parking lots.
703
00:34:14,375 --> 00:34:15,917
His cash cow
704
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,125
was city-owned parking
lots by the water.
705
00:34:19,208 --> 00:34:21,208
And he controlled the companies
706
00:34:21,291 --> 00:34:23,750
that had the parking lots
that were city-owned,
707
00:34:23,834 --> 00:34:28,041
and it was just
an enormous amount of money.
708
00:34:28,125 --> 00:34:31,542
The guy who leased those parking lots to him,
Rick Mazzeo,
709
00:34:31,625 --> 00:34:34,458
wound up under
federal investigation,
710
00:34:34,542 --> 00:34:37,500
and they found his body
in the trunk of a car,
711
00:34:37,583 --> 00:34:41,083
and all he did was
give parking lots
712
00:34:41,166 --> 00:34:42,375
to Roy Cohn.
713
00:34:42,458 --> 00:34:44,750
That's what
he did for a living.
714
00:34:45,834 --> 00:34:48,000
Roy Cohn was...
715
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,166
one of the most evil presences,
716
00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:54,208
and I mean evil presences,
717
00:34:54,291 --> 00:34:57,917
in our society during
most of my adult life.
718
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:02,083
He was not just
a lawyer for the mob.
719
00:35:02,166 --> 00:35:04,250
He was an active participant.
720
00:35:04,333 --> 00:35:07,083
♪ ♪
721
00:35:07,166 --> 00:35:08,834
Occasionally,
there were times
722
00:35:08,917 --> 00:35:12,417
where I'd be farmed out to pick up something or other.
723
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:14,583
One time, I went
to Philadelphia
724
00:35:14,667 --> 00:35:17,917
to some federal penitentiary
to pick up parole papers
725
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,834
for whoever the Godfather was.
726
00:35:20,834 --> 00:35:22,750
There were trips
over to New Jersey
727
00:35:22,834 --> 00:35:25,000
for various client matters.
728
00:35:26,291 --> 00:35:28,917
It sounds almost like
you're a gangster now.
729
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,333
Is this what drew such,
you know, alleged,
730
00:35:31,417 --> 00:35:33,875
lemme put it this way,
Godfathers?
731
00:35:33,959 --> 00:35:35,625
Galante,
732
00:35:35,709 --> 00:35:37,208
Genovese,
733
00:35:37,291 --> 00:35:39,041
"Fat Tony" Salerno...
734
00:35:39,125 --> 00:35:41,208
Let's eliminate
Tony Salerno right away.
735
00:35:41,291 --> 00:35:42,959
Tony is a-- is a good guy.
736
00:35:43,041 --> 00:35:45,750
Tony is a gambler. He's filed income taxes...
- Uh-huh.
737
00:35:45,834 --> 00:35:48,625
...paid heavy income taxes
for over 40 years.
738
00:35:48,709 --> 00:35:52,166
I like him better than
a lot of my other clients.
739
00:35:52,250 --> 00:35:54,250
I know that I can
take his word.
740
00:35:54,333 --> 00:35:56,667
Uh, I know he has guts.
741
00:35:56,750 --> 00:35:59,250
I found him to be a warm,
decent human being
742
00:35:59,333 --> 00:36:00,875
in his treatment
of other people,
743
00:36:00,959 --> 00:36:03,542
particularly other
people who needed help.
744
00:36:04,208 --> 00:36:06,792
What are the charges
against your client,
745
00:36:06,875 --> 00:36:09,667
Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno?
746
00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:11,792
This indictment says
that they
747
00:36:11,875 --> 00:36:15,333
supervise gambling,
prostitution.
748
00:36:15,417 --> 00:36:17,959
They talk about a cement
company and labor piece,
749
00:36:18,041 --> 00:36:19,583
and that's really about all.
750
00:36:19,667 --> 00:36:22,917
If there's substance to this,
I just don't see it.
751
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,458
Tony, you've read the charges
in this indictment.
752
00:36:26,542 --> 00:36:29,250
Did you do any
of those things--
753
00:36:29,333 --> 00:36:30,959
All false.
754
00:36:31,041 --> 00:36:33,375
♪ ♪
755
00:36:33,458 --> 00:36:35,500
In 1981,
756
00:36:35,583 --> 00:36:38,583
there was a strike
of cement workers.
757
00:36:38,667 --> 00:36:42,834
No ready-mix concrete project in Manhattan
758
00:36:42,917 --> 00:36:46,083
was allowed to receive
concrete by the union.
759
00:36:46,166 --> 00:36:50,583
Only Trump Tower
got their ready-mix concrete.
760
00:36:52,875 --> 00:36:54,583
Trump Tower,
when it was completed,
761
00:36:54,667 --> 00:36:55,959
was the tallest
concrete structure,
762
00:36:56,041 --> 00:36:58,000
all-concrete structure,
in the United States.
763
00:36:58,083 --> 00:36:59,917
No steel in the building.
764
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Donald made that choice
at a time when the mob
765
00:37:02,083 --> 00:37:05,917
completely controlled the
concrete industry in New York.
766
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,417
Trump Tower and Trump Plaza,
his co-op project,
767
00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:12,750
they were built by
Fat Tony Salerno's company.
768
00:37:12,834 --> 00:37:16,417
Donald met in Roy Cohn's
office with Fat Tony Salerno,
769
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:17,917
during the very time period
770
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,542
that they were
in construction.
771
00:37:20,625 --> 00:37:23,542
Through Cohn,
Trump received access
772
00:37:23,625 --> 00:37:26,166
to the worst organized
crime figures
773
00:37:26,250 --> 00:37:28,417
on the New York crime scene.
774
00:37:29,792 --> 00:37:33,250
Close the FBI!
Open up the files!
775
00:37:34,458 --> 00:37:37,291
Close the FBI!
Open up the files!
776
00:37:37,375 --> 00:37:39,166
Close the FBI!
777
00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:41,250
Open up the files!
778
00:37:41,333 --> 00:37:45,083
Close the FBI!
Open up the files...
779
00:37:45,166 --> 00:37:47,083
After we were adopted,
780
00:37:47,166 --> 00:37:50,917
we had extraordinarily
normal lives.
781
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,917
Went to high school,
went to college,
782
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,458
got married, had kids.
783
00:37:55,542 --> 00:37:57,875
Very few people that we knew
784
00:37:57,959 --> 00:38:01,000
knew that we were the sons of
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
785
00:38:02,250 --> 00:38:04,875
It wasn't until 1973,
786
00:38:04,959 --> 00:38:07,709
Robby and I made a decision
to come out publicly
787
00:38:07,792 --> 00:38:10,750
and reclaim our parents.
788
00:38:10,834 --> 00:38:13,417
Michael and Robert Rosenberg,
aged 10 and 6,
789
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:15,959
paid a final visit to
their parents at Sing Sing.
790
00:38:16,041 --> 00:38:18,250
Twenty-five years later,
they and their supporters
791
00:38:18,333 --> 00:38:20,667
are still fighting to
clear the Rosenbergs' name,
792
00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:22,792
still insisting their
parents were railroaded
793
00:38:22,875 --> 00:38:24,500
in a climate of hysteria.
794
00:38:24,583 --> 00:38:26,166
They have taken
the name of Meeropol
795
00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:28,375
after the family
which adopted them.
796
00:38:28,458 --> 00:38:30,375
Working through the Freedom of Information Act,
797
00:38:30,458 --> 00:38:32,750
the Meeropols have compelled
the government to release
798
00:38:32,834 --> 00:38:35,291
100,000 pages of
secret documents.
799
00:38:35,375 --> 00:38:37,417
Among other things,
the papers suggest
800
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:40,333
the Rosenbergs might have been granted a last-minute reprieve
801
00:38:40,417 --> 00:38:42,500
had they volunteered
to confess and testify
802
00:38:42,583 --> 00:38:43,792
about their activities.
803
00:38:43,875 --> 00:38:45,125
It's the era of Watergate.
804
00:38:45,208 --> 00:38:46,917
It's the era of Nixon
805
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,333
being forced to resign.
806
00:38:49,417 --> 00:38:52,208
This is a time to
launch a campaign.
807
00:38:52,625 --> 00:38:56,458
FBI close down,
open up the files!
808
00:38:56,542 --> 00:39:00,458
FBI close down,
open up the files!
809
00:39:00,542 --> 00:39:01,667
FBI close down...
810
00:39:03,417 --> 00:39:05,834
I remember my brother
in speeches saying
811
00:39:05,917 --> 00:39:09,583
that by exposing the frame up of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg,
812
00:39:09,667 --> 00:39:12,000
we were fighting
Watergate at its roots.
813
00:39:12,083 --> 00:39:15,834
And that's true.
814
00:39:15,917 --> 00:39:19,166
We were actually sticking
it to the government,
815
00:39:19,250 --> 00:39:22,291
and that felt good.
816
00:39:22,375 --> 00:39:24,333
We felt confidence
in ourselves
817
00:39:24,417 --> 00:39:26,375
that we could make the case.
818
00:39:27,166 --> 00:39:29,750
I took a leave from my job.
819
00:39:29,834 --> 00:39:32,583
Robby was only
working part-time.
820
00:39:32,667 --> 00:39:34,000
We wrote our book together.
821
00:39:34,083 --> 00:39:35,792
We went on speaking tours.
822
00:39:36,417 --> 00:39:37,500
Basically,
823
00:39:37,583 --> 00:39:40,500
from spring of 1974
824
00:39:40,583 --> 00:39:42,750
through June of 1978,
825
00:39:42,834 --> 00:39:44,667
I had three jobs.
826
00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:46,417
I had my job to earn money,
827
00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:49,834
my job to be your and Greg's dad and Mom's husband,
828
00:39:49,917 --> 00:39:52,166
and the job
of public Rosenberg
829
00:39:52,250 --> 00:39:53,709
fighting to reopen the case.
830
00:39:53,792 --> 00:39:56,667
I'd like to see
a judicial judgment,
831
00:39:56,750 --> 00:39:58,959
not just that my
parents were innocent,
832
00:39:59,041 --> 00:40:01,375
but that individuals
833
00:40:01,458 --> 00:40:05,000
conspired criminally
to convict them falsely.
834
00:40:05,083 --> 00:40:08,083
I'd like to see
the perpetrators locked up.
835
00:40:10,542 --> 00:40:12,125
This was the 1970s.
836
00:40:12,208 --> 00:40:14,875
You know, sex, drugs,
and rock and roll.
837
00:40:14,959 --> 00:40:17,458
And I was relatively serious,
838
00:40:17,542 --> 00:40:20,208
didn't do much
drugs by any means.
839
00:40:20,291 --> 00:40:23,375
I liked music.
840
00:40:23,458 --> 00:40:25,750
My music experience was sitting around in the living room
841
00:40:25,834 --> 00:40:28,917
with four people playing guitars,
singing songs, you know.
842
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,333
♪ Guantanamera ♪
843
00:40:31,959 --> 00:40:35,375
♪ Guantanamera... ♪
844
00:41:05,959 --> 00:41:07,709
- Do you go there for fun?
- Oh, sure.
845
00:41:07,792 --> 00:41:10,083
Do we see Roy Cohn on the dance floor?
Like, you know--
846
00:41:10,166 --> 00:41:11,875
- Well, I'm not too good on the dance floor,
- Neither am I.
847
00:41:11,959 --> 00:41:14,291
but I like to go in there--
I like to go in there and watch.
848
00:41:14,375 --> 00:41:15,875
If they go back
to Viennese waltzes,
849
00:41:15,959 --> 00:41:17,667
I might-- I might
come back into style.
850
00:41:24,875 --> 00:41:26,709
You look to your left,
and you see a bunch of kooks.
851
00:41:26,792 --> 00:41:28,000
You look to your right,
852
00:41:28,083 --> 00:41:30,291
and you'll see movie stars,
ambassadors,
853
00:41:30,375 --> 00:41:32,959
senators, congressmen,
and it's a kick.
854
00:41:33,041 --> 00:41:34,333
It's just a thing
all of its own.
855
00:41:34,417 --> 00:41:37,125
♪ ♪
856
00:41:40,959 --> 00:41:44,000
Why was Roy Cohn
involved with Studio 54?
857
00:41:44,083 --> 00:41:47,166
It was the hottest disco
in the world, and somehow,
858
00:41:47,250 --> 00:41:49,333
Roy was the lawyer for
one of the partners,
859
00:41:49,417 --> 00:41:51,667
and also sort of
the lawyer for Studio 54.
860
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:53,959
We cooperate fully
with the authorities.
861
00:41:54,041 --> 00:41:57,166
But if you want a bond posted
that no one ever smoked a joint
862
00:41:57,250 --> 00:41:59,333
in a discotheque in
the United States,
863
00:41:59,417 --> 00:42:01,542
you're talking to the wrong guy.
864
00:42:02,917 --> 00:42:05,917
Roy knew how to get
permits taken care of,
865
00:42:06,667 --> 00:42:09,166
unions to do your bidding,
866
00:42:09,250 --> 00:42:11,625
the mafia to leave you alone.
867
00:42:11,709 --> 00:42:14,792
Roy played godfather
to Rubell and Schrager,
868
00:42:14,875 --> 00:42:16,875
and they rewarded
him appropriately.
869
00:42:16,959 --> 00:42:18,917
They not only paid him well,
870
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,625
but Roy had a key to the joint.
871
00:42:20,709 --> 00:42:24,041
♪ ♪
872
00:42:37,875 --> 00:42:40,667
Studio 54,
it was the first time
873
00:42:40,750 --> 00:42:42,375
that a nightclub
874
00:42:42,458 --> 00:42:45,500
operated on a completely
different level.
875
00:42:47,458 --> 00:42:49,750
There was sex upstairs,
open sex,
876
00:42:49,834 --> 00:42:53,291
mostly gay, and people
dancing downstairs,
877
00:42:53,375 --> 00:42:55,667
and a hell of a lot of drugs.
878
00:42:57,709 --> 00:43:00,291
And Roy was there a lot.
879
00:43:06,208 --> 00:43:07,959
Roy had alliances.
880
00:43:08,041 --> 00:43:10,750
I don't think Roy ever
had a relationship.
881
00:43:10,834 --> 00:43:14,041
Roy was not interested
in a relationship.
882
00:43:15,125 --> 00:43:16,959
For years, Roy pretended
to be straight.
883
00:43:18,417 --> 00:43:21,667
To the extent of announcing that he was engaged to Barbara Walters.
884
00:43:22,458 --> 00:43:24,792
We're getting married
when we're both 60.
885
00:43:27,083 --> 00:43:28,792
Roy would call
Cindy Adams and say,
886
00:43:28,875 --> 00:43:31,500
"Would you, you know,
put an item in your column?
887
00:43:31,583 --> 00:43:34,291
Barbara Walters
and I may get married."
888
00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:36,875
I knew the boyfriends.
889
00:43:36,959 --> 00:43:38,792
I can't remember
who they were now,
890
00:43:38,875 --> 00:43:41,166
but they were all
nice-looking and young.
891
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,583
You know?
Should happen to me.
892
00:43:44,667 --> 00:43:46,291
Absolutely.
893
00:43:46,375 --> 00:43:48,125
It was fine.
894
00:43:48,208 --> 00:43:49,709
Yes, of course I knew.
895
00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:52,375
We all knew.
896
00:43:55,709 --> 00:43:58,125
Homosexuality is an enigma.
897
00:43:58,208 --> 00:44:00,291
Even in this era of
bold sexual mores,
898
00:44:00,375 --> 00:44:03,041
it remains a subject
that people find disturbing.
899
00:44:03,125 --> 00:44:04,291
Embarrassing.
900
00:44:04,375 --> 00:44:05,917
Most Americans
are repelled by
901
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,792
the mere notion
of homosexuality.
902
00:44:07,875 --> 00:44:10,917
The homosexual,
bitterly aware of his rejection,
903
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,667
responds
by going underground.
904
00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:16,375
♪ ♪
905
00:44:17,375 --> 00:44:20,208
In the '70s, I was working--
906
00:44:20,291 --> 00:44:22,750
Well, hooking,
at a bar called Rounds.
907
00:44:26,041 --> 00:44:29,083
I was picked up by this guy that
I thought was very attractive.
908
00:44:29,166 --> 00:44:30,500
So I was like, this is great
909
00:44:30,583 --> 00:44:32,875
'cause I'm gonna get paid
plus he's really cute.
910
00:44:34,583 --> 00:44:37,000
They wanted me
to meet somebody.
911
00:44:37,083 --> 00:44:40,917
And they drove me deep
in the woods somewhere.
912
00:44:42,709 --> 00:44:46,458
It was very secretive.
It was very covert operation-like.
913
00:44:54,375 --> 00:44:56,458
Sitting on the sofa was Roy
914
00:44:56,542 --> 00:45:00,083
in this black velour robe.
915
00:45:00,166 --> 00:45:01,709
He was very tanned,
916
00:45:01,792 --> 00:45:03,500
and very, uh, you know,
917
00:45:03,583 --> 00:45:05,667
kinda lizard-like, you know?
918
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:07,417
But-- but like an old auntie.
919
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:09,959
Like that had just come home
from bingo and was cold.
920
00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:14,500
He asked me to sit down
on the sofa next to him.
921
00:45:14,583 --> 00:45:16,208
He made me a cocktail.
922
00:45:16,291 --> 00:45:18,208
I think I asked
for a screwdriver.
923
00:45:18,291 --> 00:45:19,750
♪ ♪
924
00:45:19,834 --> 00:45:22,542
I saw an album
925
00:45:22,625 --> 00:45:24,625
of Mabel Mercer
and Bobby Short,
926
00:45:24,709 --> 00:45:26,792
and I was a fan of this album.
927
00:45:28,917 --> 00:45:31,208
So, we started
talking about that,
928
00:45:31,291 --> 00:45:34,083
and he was really surprised that I knew who Mabel Mercer was.
929
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,166
After a very long talk,
930
00:45:38,250 --> 00:45:39,625
I went upstairs
931
00:45:39,709 --> 00:45:41,875
and had sex with this guy that
I guess was his boyfriend.
932
00:45:41,959 --> 00:45:43,750
I don't know what was happening.
933
00:45:44,041 --> 00:45:45,625
And then,
a couple weeks later,
934
00:45:45,709 --> 00:45:48,667
it happened all over again
where they brought me to him,
935
00:45:48,750 --> 00:45:52,041
but at that point, I thought
we were "friends," you know?
936
00:45:52,125 --> 00:45:53,417
♪ I can't explain ♪
937
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,583
♪ Please ignore
my fondness for... ♪
938
00:45:56,667 --> 00:45:59,041
I said,
"What exactly did you...
939
00:45:59,125 --> 00:46:01,417
"do you-- did you
want me to come here for?
940
00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:03,250
Was I supposed to
have sex with you?"
941
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,166
That's when it turned...
942
00:46:11,083 --> 00:46:13,125
in a-- in a very strange way.
943
00:46:13,208 --> 00:46:16,583
♪ ♪
944
00:46:16,667 --> 00:46:18,917
And he got angry with me.
945
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,667
Didn't raise his
voice so much as
946
00:46:20,750 --> 00:46:23,625
his eyes and the tone
of voice was strange,
947
00:46:23,709 --> 00:46:27,291
and he said, "I asked you
here to discuss music."
948
00:46:27,375 --> 00:46:29,250
He was done with me
at that point.
949
00:46:29,333 --> 00:46:31,166
It's sort of like,
you know,
950
00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:33,583
Blanche DuBois, you know?
951
00:46:33,667 --> 00:46:36,875
"I don't want reality!
I want dreams."
952
00:46:40,583 --> 00:46:42,208
He came from a certain
generation
953
00:46:42,291 --> 00:46:45,291
where you obviously
couldn't be openly gay,
954
00:46:45,375 --> 00:46:48,583
and work in the world
that he was working in.
955
00:46:50,875 --> 00:46:54,333
I remember that there was
an assistant named Vincent.
956
00:46:54,417 --> 00:46:58,834
He was a young, good-looking guy
who kind of passed in and out,
957
00:46:58,917 --> 00:47:00,875
and gradually,
it dawned on me that
958
00:47:00,959 --> 00:47:03,333
there's probably some kind
of personal relationship
959
00:47:03,417 --> 00:47:04,959
between him and Cohn.
960
00:47:05,041 --> 00:47:06,959
Did you remember I had a lunch
date with Barbara Walters?
961
00:47:07,041 --> 00:47:08,834
- When is that?
- Today.
962
00:47:08,917 --> 00:47:12,667
He knew how to be a gay man
who was in the closet.
963
00:47:12,750 --> 00:47:15,625
But, he'll play
games with it also.
964
00:47:15,709 --> 00:47:18,375
He was flaunting it
in a certain sense,
965
00:47:18,458 --> 00:47:21,709
and sort of daring people
to see how much room
966
00:47:21,792 --> 00:47:24,250
there was to do
whatever you wanted.
967
00:47:25,125 --> 00:47:27,250
♪ ♪
968
00:47:35,417 --> 00:47:36,917
I'm basically an introvert.
969
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,917
I'm basically
a private person.
970
00:47:40,333 --> 00:47:42,000
When I'm with my friends,
971
00:47:42,083 --> 00:47:43,917
under circumstances
of privacy,
972
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,834
that's what I really love.
973
00:47:45,917 --> 00:47:47,875
I think what makes
my adrenaline go
974
00:47:47,959 --> 00:47:50,583
more than anything else
is this combination.
975
00:47:50,667 --> 00:47:52,000
I can't have one without--
976
00:47:52,083 --> 00:47:54,041
The public and private.
- Right.
977
00:47:55,792 --> 00:47:57,208
Many people were shocked
978
00:47:57,291 --> 00:47:59,709
that Roy Cohn
appeared in Provincetown,
979
00:47:59,792 --> 00:48:05,000
which is probably the world's leading summertime gay community.
980
00:48:05,083 --> 00:48:07,250
He was summering
in Provincetown,
981
00:48:07,333 --> 00:48:09,583
quite out in the open,
quite conspicuously.
982
00:48:09,667 --> 00:48:12,709
♪ ♪
983
00:48:16,792 --> 00:48:20,291
Roy loved the craziness
of Provincetown.
984
00:48:20,375 --> 00:48:23,291
He loved the drinking,
he loved the games,
985
00:48:23,375 --> 00:48:25,834
the social crap that
went on downtown.
986
00:48:30,250 --> 00:48:33,959
When I saw him, I was
appalled that he was here.
987
00:48:35,792 --> 00:48:37,834
The only place I ever
saw him in person
988
00:48:37,917 --> 00:48:41,000
that I remember was in
Front Street, repeatedly.
989
00:48:41,792 --> 00:48:43,792
It was a jumpin' scene.
990
00:48:43,875 --> 00:48:47,125
I mean,
it was definitely the place to be in Provincetown.
991
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,917
And he was always in
there with hustlers,
992
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,917
and it infuriated me.
993
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,875
All these boys
around the table.
994
00:48:57,959 --> 00:49:01,000
They were ordering champagne
and fancy food and, you know.
995
00:49:01,083 --> 00:49:02,834
It didn't seem like
they were discussing
996
00:49:02,917 --> 00:49:05,000
the history of Communism.
997
00:49:06,125 --> 00:49:08,166
I would've been
a Communist then.
998
00:49:08,250 --> 00:49:09,875
Just meant a liberal, really.
999
00:49:09,959 --> 00:49:11,792
You know, I was worse.
1000
00:49:12,333 --> 00:49:13,458
I was a young--
1001
00:49:13,542 --> 00:49:15,500
just lunatic
myself, really,
1002
00:49:15,583 --> 00:49:16,959
so I never spoke to him.
1003
00:49:17,041 --> 00:49:18,583
And complained
that he was in there
1004
00:49:18,667 --> 00:49:20,542
to the people that owned it,
who was my dear friend
1005
00:49:20,625 --> 00:49:22,583
Howard Gruber,
who was Jewish!
1006
00:49:22,667 --> 00:49:24,208
He said, "Well, I just
always spit in his food
1007
00:49:24,291 --> 00:49:25,875
every time when I serve it."
1008
00:49:25,959 --> 00:49:28,000
I would've done more than spit.
1009
00:49:28,083 --> 00:49:30,000
♪ ♪
1010
00:49:30,083 --> 00:49:31,959
He'd stop into
Front Street
1011
00:49:32,041 --> 00:49:35,917
to make a reservation
for a 25-person seating.
1012
00:49:37,083 --> 00:49:39,709
He was a true perfectionist.
1013
00:49:41,458 --> 00:49:43,625
Before any of
the guests arrived,
1014
00:49:43,709 --> 00:49:46,000
he had to see it set up.
1015
00:49:48,709 --> 00:49:52,333
He would bring in
these candy dishes,
1016
00:49:52,417 --> 00:49:54,375
and he would fill
them with cocaine.
1017
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,333
A substantial amount of cocaine.
1018
00:49:57,417 --> 00:50:00,125
He would then
place these Tuinals
1019
00:50:00,208 --> 00:50:02,208
to the right
of every setting.
1020
00:50:02,291 --> 00:50:03,333
It's a sedative,
1021
00:50:03,417 --> 00:50:06,542
so if they got
too crazy on the cocaine,
1022
00:50:06,625 --> 00:50:09,583
they would have a Tuinal
to level themselves out.
1023
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,333
It was a coke pit.
1024
00:50:13,417 --> 00:50:15,166
It was during
the cocaine years.
1025
00:50:15,250 --> 00:50:17,166
And I did cocaine
in the bathroom there.
1026
00:50:17,250 --> 00:50:18,375
Everybody did.
1027
00:50:18,458 --> 00:50:20,333
Did I ever do coke with him?
I wouldn't have!
1028
00:50:20,417 --> 00:50:22,250
I wouldn't have had my nostril
1029
00:50:22,333 --> 00:50:24,959
on the same straw as that pig!
1030
00:50:25,041 --> 00:50:27,500
♪ ♪
1031
00:50:27,583 --> 00:50:30,125
He came here for easy sex
1032
00:50:30,208 --> 00:50:31,709
and handsome men
1033
00:50:31,792 --> 00:50:33,834
and probably easy
access to drugs.
1034
00:50:33,917 --> 00:50:35,375
And no paparazzi.
1035
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,291
And maybe the fact that
people didn't know who he was.
1036
00:50:52,625 --> 00:50:56,333
This is Roy's cottage
that he rented there.
1037
00:50:56,417 --> 00:51:00,291
It's fixed up
somewhat now.
1038
00:51:01,166 --> 00:51:02,792
And this is my house.
1039
00:51:03,417 --> 00:51:07,125
So you can see,
we were very connected.
1040
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:13,083
A neighbor up the street came
to me that he had a renter.
1041
00:51:13,166 --> 00:51:15,959
I had never rented before.
I said, great.
1042
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:17,959
And he didn't
tell me who it was.
1043
00:51:18,041 --> 00:51:19,917
He said, "But don't
worry about it."
1044
00:51:21,166 --> 00:51:23,583
So, lo and behold,
1045
00:51:23,667 --> 00:51:25,792
Roy Cohn moves in.
1046
00:51:26,458 --> 00:51:28,750
I didn't know
that much about Roy,
1047
00:51:28,834 --> 00:51:31,291
but I knew enough.
1048
00:51:33,125 --> 00:51:34,917
The neighbors right away
1049
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,875
knew much more than I did.
1050
00:51:36,959 --> 00:51:39,083
"How could you have
done that to us?
1051
00:51:39,166 --> 00:51:41,500
"How could you
have made that man
1052
00:51:41,583 --> 00:51:44,625
live across the street
from me?" And so on.
1053
00:51:44,834 --> 00:51:48,000
But, the rent was paid,
the house was clean,
1054
00:51:48,083 --> 00:51:50,083
and he was a good tenant.
1055
00:51:50,166 --> 00:51:53,083
And he had lots
and lots of guests
1056
00:51:53,166 --> 00:51:54,875
all the time.
1057
00:51:54,959 --> 00:51:58,500
Tall, blonde, blue-eyed,
built like...
1058
00:51:58,917 --> 00:52:00,500
yummy.
1059
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:05,834
I never saw him alone,
1060
00:52:05,917 --> 00:52:07,834
except for when
he went swimming.
1061
00:52:07,917 --> 00:52:10,500
♪ ♪
1062
00:52:21,041 --> 00:52:22,709
That's an interesting thought.
1063
00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:24,917
Never alone.
1064
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,458
Always at least
two or three people,
1065
00:52:28,542 --> 00:52:31,208
if not more... hovering.
1066
00:52:32,417 --> 00:52:35,917
How important is it to
spend time with yourself?
1067
00:52:41,291 --> 00:52:44,291
I rented to him
a second year,
1068
00:52:44,375 --> 00:52:47,250
and he then came to me
and said he wanted to buy it.
1069
00:52:48,083 --> 00:52:50,083
I said, "Well,
it's not for sale."
1070
00:52:50,750 --> 00:52:52,417
And he looked at me
1071
00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:54,834
with these very cold eyes.
1072
00:52:54,917 --> 00:52:56,583
Said, "Things have
a way of being sold
1073
00:52:56,667 --> 00:52:58,750
that aren't for sale, Anne."
1074
00:53:00,166 --> 00:53:02,250
I just shivered.
1075
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:09,458
Fortunately, he bought
the place two houses from me.
1076
00:53:12,333 --> 00:53:15,250
Norman Mailer and I were
buying a house together.
1077
00:53:15,333 --> 00:53:18,000
Roy jumps into that project,
1078
00:53:18,083 --> 00:53:19,917
and snags for himself
1079
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,083
the cottage that's
on the property.
1080
00:53:22,166 --> 00:53:26,041
♪ ♪
1081
00:53:29,667 --> 00:53:33,959
I can recall one Sunday
on his big deck.
1082
00:53:36,458 --> 00:53:39,041
Roy is surrounded
by newspapers.
1083
00:53:39,125 --> 00:53:43,291
You know, the "LA Times,"
the "New York Times," London papers.
1084
00:53:43,375 --> 00:53:46,959
Norman Mailer had recently gotten back from Russia,
1085
00:53:47,041 --> 00:53:50,041
where he did a piece
for "Parade Magazine,"
1086
00:53:50,125 --> 00:53:52,333
praising Russia to the skies.
1087
00:53:52,417 --> 00:53:53,875
He loved Russian food.
1088
00:53:53,959 --> 00:53:55,667
"The borscht, oh!
You've never had borscht
1089
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:57,041
"like you can get in Moscow.
1090
00:53:57,125 --> 00:53:58,500
"Russian women!
1091
00:53:58,583 --> 00:54:00,166
Nothing like it!"
1092
00:54:01,583 --> 00:54:03,375
Roy was looking
at Norman's piece,
1093
00:54:03,458 --> 00:54:05,542
and Roy looks up and he says,
"Have you read this?
1094
00:54:05,625 --> 00:54:07,166
"You know,
your friend Mailer
1095
00:54:07,250 --> 00:54:09,333
"you know,
is so fucking in love with the Russians,
1096
00:54:09,417 --> 00:54:10,834
"he'll really be happy
when, you know,
1097
00:54:10,917 --> 00:54:12,917
"the Ruskies
drop a nuke on him.
1098
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,083
That'll bring him
to his senses maybe!"
1099
00:54:23,333 --> 00:54:24,917
Guilty or innocent?
1100
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,959
The question lingers
after 30 years,
1101
00:54:27,041 --> 00:54:29,792
and still divides many
people here and abroad.
1102
00:54:29,875 --> 00:54:33,333
I would like to introduce
briefly our guests tonight.
1103
00:54:33,417 --> 00:54:35,250
To my left, Marshall Perlin,
1104
00:54:35,333 --> 00:54:37,291
a lawyer involved with the case.
1105
00:54:37,375 --> 00:54:40,542
To my left,
Professor Michael Meeropol,
1106
00:54:40,625 --> 00:54:43,417
one of the sons of
Ethel and Julius Rosenberg.
1107
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:46,667
And to my right,
attorney Roy Cohn.
1108
00:54:46,750 --> 00:54:48,500
♪ ♪
1109
00:54:48,583 --> 00:54:50,917
When Robby and I got
a lot of publicity,
1110
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,208
we discover that
Roy Cohn has taken on
1111
00:54:54,291 --> 00:54:57,291
the mantle of defending
the government.
1112
00:54:57,375 --> 00:54:59,875
Why was clemency not granted?
1113
00:54:59,959 --> 00:55:01,583
What was standing in the way?
1114
00:55:01,667 --> 00:55:04,208
Well, it is justified
in the case of two people
1115
00:55:04,291 --> 00:55:07,333
who stole secrets
involving a bomb
1116
00:55:07,417 --> 00:55:11,291
which could take thousands
and thousands of human lives,
1117
00:55:11,375 --> 00:55:13,250
and turning it over to an enemy,
1118
00:55:13,333 --> 00:55:15,959
which has blacked out
a good part of the world,
1119
00:55:16,041 --> 00:55:18,000
and taken many human lives.
1120
00:55:18,083 --> 00:55:19,625
What could be worse than
1121
00:55:19,709 --> 00:55:22,417
- selling out your own country?
- Mr. Meeropol?
1122
00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:26,166
Yes. The first thing that
people have to realize is,
1123
00:55:26,250 --> 00:55:28,959
of course, that the man
who's saying all this
1124
00:55:29,041 --> 00:55:31,250
was part of a prosecution team
1125
00:55:31,333 --> 00:55:33,542
that engaged in
subornation of perjury
1126
00:55:33,625 --> 00:55:35,625
and a conspiracy
to deprive civil rights
1127
00:55:35,709 --> 00:55:37,250
by false prosecution.
1128
00:55:37,333 --> 00:55:39,375
Now, he's not gonna stand on television in the United States
1129
00:55:39,458 --> 00:55:40,583
and confess to doing that.
1130
00:55:40,667 --> 00:55:41,834
He hasn't been in the habit
1131
00:55:41,917 --> 00:55:44,250
of confessing crimes
in his entire career,
1132
00:55:44,333 --> 00:55:45,917
and I don't expect
he's gonna start now.
1133
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,875
Fact remains
that ever since 1953,
1134
00:55:48,959 --> 00:55:52,542
we have uncovered perjuries on the part of prosecution witnesses.
1135
00:55:52,625 --> 00:55:54,166
We have uncovered forgeries.
1136
00:55:54,250 --> 00:55:56,208
We've uncovered
factual material--
1137
00:55:56,291 --> 00:55:57,834
Now, you're accusing
me of corruption--
1138
00:55:57,917 --> 00:55:59,583
- No, no, no, no...
- That's a strong thing to say.
1139
00:55:59,667 --> 00:56:01,333
Now, let me make
a very interesting comment
1140
00:56:01,417 --> 00:56:02,667
that your viewers
may be interested in.
1141
00:56:02,750 --> 00:56:05,250
We have a way of reopening
the case right now.
1142
00:56:05,333 --> 00:56:07,041
If I just told a lie
1143
00:56:07,125 --> 00:56:08,750
about Mr. Cohn's
criminal conduct,
1144
00:56:08,834 --> 00:56:10,500
- I've committed libel.
- We don't--
1145
00:56:10,583 --> 00:56:12,458
We've got a perfect chance to have a courtroom.
- Again--
1146
00:56:12,542 --> 00:56:14,709
Again, we don't want to
get into this right here.
1147
00:56:14,792 --> 00:56:16,667
He knows what he did.
He doesn't wanna do it.
1148
00:56:16,750 --> 00:56:18,500
I would like to hear more
about the motivation...
1149
00:56:18,583 --> 00:56:20,583
Of course,
he did know what he did.
1150
00:56:20,667 --> 00:56:22,917
The point is he didn't care.
1151
00:56:23,959 --> 00:56:26,583
If it wasn't for me, Joe,
1152
00:56:26,667 --> 00:56:30,000
Ethel Rosenberg
would be alive today.
1153
00:56:31,041 --> 00:56:34,375
I would've fucking pulled the switch if they'd have let me.
1154
00:56:34,458 --> 00:56:37,417
Why? Because I
fucking hate traitors.
1155
00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:39,917
Because I fucking
hate Communists!
1156
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,625
Was it legal? Fuck legal.
1157
00:56:42,709 --> 00:56:44,667
Am I a nice man?
1158
00:56:44,750 --> 00:56:45,959
Fuck nice!
1159
00:56:46,041 --> 00:56:49,333
They say terrible things
about me in "The Nation."
1160
00:56:49,417 --> 00:56:51,500
Fuck "The Nation"!
1161
00:56:51,583 --> 00:56:53,625
You wanna be nice?!
1162
00:56:53,709 --> 00:56:56,125
Or you wanna be effective?!
1163
00:56:56,333 --> 00:56:59,959
Make the law,
or subject to it! Choose!
1164
00:57:01,750 --> 00:57:03,959
The Rosenbergs
convicted themselves
1165
00:57:04,041 --> 00:57:05,583
by taking the witness stand
1166
00:57:05,667 --> 00:57:07,166
and lying through their teeth.
1167
00:57:07,250 --> 00:57:09,125
There were a number
of other people,
1168
00:57:09,208 --> 00:57:10,917
recruited by the Rosenbergs,
1169
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,959
working with the Rosenbergs,
who escaped.
1170
00:57:14,917 --> 00:57:16,417
I welcome a full inquiry.
1171
00:57:16,500 --> 00:57:19,583
I urge you to use
the power of subpoena,
1172
00:57:19,667 --> 00:57:22,583
get secret documents,
talk to witnesses,
1173
00:57:22,667 --> 00:57:24,917
put people like
Mr. Cohn under oath,
1174
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,083
and keep at him
1175
00:57:27,166 --> 00:57:29,583
about things that were
developed, prosecution,
1176
00:57:29,667 --> 00:57:31,500
changes, etc., etc.
1177
00:57:31,583 --> 00:57:33,417
I feel the people
who framed my parents
1178
00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:36,041
trampled the American
flag in the mud,
1179
00:57:36,125 --> 00:57:38,125
and I think it's up
to us to wash it.
1180
00:57:38,208 --> 00:57:39,291
I could look him in the eye
1181
00:57:39,375 --> 00:57:40,542
and I could point
at him and say,
1182
00:57:40,625 --> 00:57:42,834
"You knew what you did."
1183
00:57:43,417 --> 00:57:44,750
And I kept saying,
1184
00:57:44,834 --> 00:57:48,083
"Come on!
If I'm lying, sue me!"
1185
00:57:49,375 --> 00:57:51,500
And he just brushed it off.
1186
00:58:00,166 --> 00:58:01,875
"Who elected Ronald Reagan?
1187
00:58:01,959 --> 00:58:04,458
"It was union members,
defying their leaders.
1188
00:58:04,542 --> 00:58:06,792
"It was the blue collar worker,
the truck driver.
1189
00:58:06,875 --> 00:58:09,500
"Because they're the ones who
are getting hit by our economy.
1190
00:58:09,583 --> 00:58:12,166
It's the middle class
that's been going under."
1191
00:58:12,709 --> 00:58:14,000
You know what?
1192
00:58:14,083 --> 00:58:18,333
That is the subtext to
the election of Donald Trump.
1193
00:58:19,125 --> 00:58:20,667
Hmm.
1194
00:58:20,750 --> 00:58:23,625
And this was what? 1981.
1195
00:58:23,709 --> 00:58:26,000
♪ ♪
1196
00:58:26,083 --> 00:58:27,834
You have claimed
to have been a fan
1197
00:58:27,917 --> 00:58:30,166
of Ronald Reagan, supporter of Reagan.
- I haven't claimed.
1198
00:58:30,250 --> 00:58:31,875
- I have been.
- Alright, wonderful.
1199
00:58:31,959 --> 00:58:34,333
For many years.
Way before,
1200
00:58:34,417 --> 00:58:36,834
way before a national--
- No, I can tell you exactly when.
1201
00:58:36,917 --> 00:58:40,959
When he made the speech for
Barry Goldwater in 1964.
1202
00:58:41,041 --> 00:58:43,583
Ronald Reagan came
across as a giant.
1203
00:58:43,667 --> 00:58:45,250
We're at war with
the most dangerous enemy
1204
00:58:45,333 --> 00:58:47,917
that has ever faced
mankind in his long climb
1205
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,166
from the swamp to the stars.
1206
00:58:50,250 --> 00:58:51,834
And it's been said
if we lose that war,
1207
00:58:51,917 --> 00:58:54,917
and in so doing lose this way of freedom of ours,
1208
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,041
history will record with
the greatest astonishment
1209
00:58:57,125 --> 00:58:59,291
that those who had
the most to lose
1210
00:58:59,375 --> 00:59:01,834
did the least to
prevent its happening.
1211
00:59:03,250 --> 00:59:06,125
We want Reagan! We want Reagan!
1212
00:59:06,208 --> 00:59:07,750
We want Reagan!
1213
00:59:07,834 --> 00:59:10,000
We want Reagan!
We want Reagan!
1214
00:59:13,458 --> 00:59:17,542
Many people did not expect
a governor from California,
1215
00:59:17,625 --> 00:59:20,583
who was not sophisticated about international relations,
1216
00:59:20,667 --> 00:59:22,041
to be elected.
1217
00:59:24,750 --> 00:59:27,875
Roy predicted that he would be elected well before he was.
1218
00:59:29,458 --> 00:59:31,500
Roy ushered in that
Republican revolution.
1219
00:59:39,667 --> 00:59:41,458
Since the time
Governor Reagan
1220
00:59:41,542 --> 00:59:43,417
in New York made
his announcement
1221
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:44,709
until the election,
1222
00:59:44,792 --> 00:59:46,458
I don't know where
I got the time from
1223
00:59:46,542 --> 00:59:48,667
because my partner,
Tom Bolan, was--
1224
00:59:48,750 --> 00:59:51,417
had the main role
as finance director
1225
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:53,083
for Governor Reagan
in New York,
1226
00:59:53,166 --> 00:59:55,333
but I had to do an awful lot
1227
00:59:55,417 --> 00:59:58,583
and through
all hours of the night.
1228
00:59:58,667 --> 01:00:01,208
Roger Stone was a young
campaign person
1229
01:00:01,291 --> 01:00:02,500
who was
working in New York,
1230
01:00:02,583 --> 01:00:03,834
and he met Roy because
1231
01:00:03,917 --> 01:00:05,291
Roy hosted him at parties,
1232
01:00:05,375 --> 01:00:08,000
actually introduced
him to Donald Trump.
1233
01:00:08,083 --> 01:00:10,250
And Roger Stone
got a lot of money,
1234
01:00:10,333 --> 01:00:12,333
so that when
Reagan was elected,
1235
01:00:12,417 --> 01:00:14,750
Roger Stone and Ed Meese
and people around him
1236
01:00:14,834 --> 01:00:16,291
felt that they owed a lot to Roy
1237
01:00:16,375 --> 01:00:18,417
for making connections
and getting him money.
1238
01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:20,750
Ronald Reagan also helped
his fellow Republicans
1239
01:00:20,834 --> 01:00:23,417
make a major change in
the philosophy of Congress.
1240
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:25,583
It has become much
more conservative
1241
01:00:25,667 --> 01:00:27,917
in the Senate and in the House.
1242
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,291
1980, it was a big
Republican year.
1243
01:00:31,375 --> 01:00:33,583
And I got elected
to Congress
1244
01:00:33,667 --> 01:00:35,083
as the youngest
member of Congress.
1245
01:00:35,583 --> 01:00:38,834
I just turned 27 during
the campaign, so I was...
1246
01:00:39,417 --> 01:00:40,792
young.
1247
01:00:40,875 --> 01:00:44,959
And within a week or two
after I got elected,
1248
01:00:45,041 --> 01:00:47,792
I get a phone call
and a letter
1249
01:00:47,875 --> 01:00:49,458
asking a favor
1250
01:00:49,542 --> 01:00:53,125
from this law firm
that was Tom Bolan
1251
01:00:53,208 --> 01:00:55,583
and his law partner,
Roy Cohn.
1252
01:00:56,667 --> 01:00:58,417
They wanted their friends
1253
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:01,208
to get jobs from
the Reagan White House.
1254
01:01:01,291 --> 01:01:04,083
They asked me to
support a candidate
1255
01:01:04,166 --> 01:01:06,125
for a federal judgeship.
1256
01:01:06,208 --> 01:01:08,333
And along the way, they asked
me to write this letter,
1257
01:01:08,417 --> 01:01:11,000
and they keep pushing it,
which I ended up writing.
1258
01:01:11,083 --> 01:01:14,333
It might've been the first letter of recommendation I wrote,
1259
01:01:14,417 --> 01:01:17,500
and it was for Maryanne Trump,
1260
01:01:17,583 --> 01:01:19,375
Donald Trump's older sister,
1261
01:01:19,458 --> 01:01:20,959
to be a federal judge.
1262
01:01:21,500 --> 01:01:23,834
I've never been asked to
do such a thing in my life!
1263
01:01:23,917 --> 01:01:26,834
A year earlier, I'm in school!
1264
01:01:26,917 --> 01:01:30,250
And in the new administration,
the next year,
1265
01:01:30,333 --> 01:01:33,458
President Reagan did appoint
her to the federal bench.
1266
01:01:33,542 --> 01:01:34,959
♪ ♪
1267
01:01:35,041 --> 01:01:38,125
Right from the get-go,
they were very influential
1268
01:01:38,208 --> 01:01:40,875
with the President
of the United States.
1269
01:01:48,417 --> 01:01:52,709
I became very involved in the issue of American prisoners of war
1270
01:01:52,792 --> 01:01:55,792
that were left behind
during the Vietnam War.
1271
01:01:55,875 --> 01:01:59,166
I am now on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House,
1272
01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:02,583
and I have a Laotian pilot
1273
01:02:02,667 --> 01:02:05,542
that I'm hiring
to go back to Laos
1274
01:02:05,625 --> 01:02:07,542
to look around
for information.
1275
01:02:07,625 --> 01:02:12,166
But we needed to accelerate
his citizenship,
1276
01:02:12,250 --> 01:02:14,625
so I asked Roy Cohn.
1277
01:02:15,625 --> 01:02:17,041
And to this day,
1278
01:02:17,125 --> 01:02:20,667
it is the single most
impressive use of power
1279
01:02:20,750 --> 01:02:22,583
that I've seen in my life.
1280
01:02:23,667 --> 01:02:25,208
He said,
"I've got it all set.
1281
01:02:25,291 --> 01:02:26,542
"Here's what you're gonna do.
1282
01:02:26,625 --> 01:02:28,208
"You're gonna go
to Los Angeles.
1283
01:02:28,291 --> 01:02:31,208
"You're gonna go to
the federal courthouse.
1284
01:02:31,291 --> 01:02:33,041
"You're gonna go
to some courtroom,
1285
01:02:33,125 --> 01:02:36,792
"and there is
a Judge Roy Carstairs
1286
01:02:36,875 --> 01:02:39,917
"will be running
a federal trial.
1287
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,917
"And you will wait in the back
of the courtroom, standing.
1288
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:46,542
"Judge Carstairs
will see you there,
1289
01:02:46,625 --> 01:02:50,000
"he will call a recess
of the trial,
1290
01:02:50,083 --> 01:02:52,291
"and he will swear
your Laotian in
1291
01:02:52,375 --> 01:02:55,041
as an American citizen
right on the spot."
1292
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:58,834
That is how
to wield power.
1293
01:03:04,542 --> 01:03:07,417
Before I met him,
I knew him as a fixer.
1294
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:09,250
A guy who got things done.
1295
01:03:09,333 --> 01:03:11,250
It wasn't what you knew.
It was who you knew.
1296
01:03:13,458 --> 01:03:16,125
The only occasion I ever
had to work with him
1297
01:03:16,208 --> 01:03:19,083
was during
the Claus Von Bulow case.
1298
01:03:19,166 --> 01:03:22,000
I was handling
the criminal aspect of it.
1299
01:03:22,083 --> 01:03:24,333
He was handling the estate.
1300
01:03:24,417 --> 01:03:26,625
I was, I wouldn't
say charmed by him,
1301
01:03:26,709 --> 01:03:29,709
but I was pleasantly
surprised by the fact
1302
01:03:29,792 --> 01:03:33,792
that he wasn't the ogre
that I had been told he was.
1303
01:03:33,875 --> 01:03:37,792
And he was determined to
make me like him some how.
1304
01:03:37,875 --> 01:03:39,583
♪ ♪
1305
01:03:39,667 --> 01:03:41,834
He emphasized that
he really admired me
1306
01:03:41,917 --> 01:03:44,458
because of my
support for Israel,
1307
01:03:44,542 --> 01:03:47,834
my support for Jewish values.
1308
01:03:48,542 --> 01:03:50,375
He tried to persuade me
1309
01:03:50,458 --> 01:03:53,125
that he grew up at a time
1310
01:03:53,208 --> 01:03:56,625
when Communism was
associated with being Jewish.
1311
01:03:56,709 --> 01:03:58,125
Not only the Rosenbergs.
1312
01:03:58,208 --> 01:04:00,750
Klaus Fuchs and, you know,
so many of the other people
1313
01:04:00,834 --> 01:04:04,041
who were alleged
to be spies were Jews,
1314
01:04:04,125 --> 01:04:08,166
and so many of the leaders of Communist parties were Jews.
1315
01:04:08,250 --> 01:04:09,625
And he thought it
was terrible
1316
01:04:09,709 --> 01:04:12,542
that Jews were being
associated with Communism.
1317
01:04:12,625 --> 01:04:15,875
And he made a decision to
stand up against Communism
1318
01:04:15,959 --> 01:04:19,542
as a visible Jew,
with a name like Cohn,
1319
01:04:19,625 --> 01:04:21,667
that can be seen
around the world
1320
01:04:21,750 --> 01:04:24,667
as Jews standing up
against Communism.
1321
01:04:24,750 --> 01:04:27,500
And he went into
great detail with me
1322
01:04:27,583 --> 01:04:29,792
about the Rosenberg case.
1323
01:04:29,875 --> 01:04:32,125
♪ ♪
1324
01:04:32,208 --> 01:04:35,083
And the story he told is
that they knew for certain
1325
01:04:35,166 --> 01:04:38,208
that Julius Rosenberg
was a spy
1326
01:04:38,291 --> 01:04:41,625
because they had wiretaps
from some embassy
1327
01:04:41,709 --> 01:04:43,041
that they couldn't disclose
1328
01:04:43,125 --> 01:04:45,375
'cause they're not supposed
to be taping embassies,
1329
01:04:45,458 --> 01:04:48,792
but they were 100 % confident.
1330
01:04:48,875 --> 01:04:51,041
But they couldn't
use the evidence.
1331
01:04:51,125 --> 01:04:54,166
And so, they "enhanced"
the evidence.
1332
01:04:54,250 --> 01:04:56,375
They "improved" the evidence.
1333
01:04:56,458 --> 01:05:00,542
And he thought it was
a morally just thing to do.
1334
01:05:00,625 --> 01:05:02,625
The star witness
for the prosecution
1335
01:05:02,709 --> 01:05:04,500
was David Greenglass.
1336
01:05:04,583 --> 01:05:07,041
He now says this man
made him do it.
1337
01:05:07,125 --> 01:05:10,917
And did Cohn encourage
you to testify that you...
1338
01:05:11,625 --> 01:05:13,917
saw Ethel typing up the notes?
1339
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:15,083
Of course he did.
1340
01:05:15,166 --> 01:05:16,542
Did you realize at the time
1341
01:05:16,625 --> 01:05:19,291
or when you were testifying,
the importance of this...
1342
01:05:19,375 --> 01:05:21,041
the evidence you were providing?
1343
01:05:21,125 --> 01:05:23,750
I had no idea it was
important at all.
1344
01:05:23,834 --> 01:05:25,542
♪ ♪
1345
01:05:25,625 --> 01:05:28,125
He also said that he did have
1346
01:05:28,208 --> 01:05:31,917
many ex-party conversations
with Judge Irving Kaufman,
1347
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:33,625
that they talked
on the phone.
1348
01:05:33,709 --> 01:05:37,458
They had agreements about how to handle certain pieces of evidence.
1349
01:05:38,500 --> 01:05:40,500
He never denied
1350
01:05:40,583 --> 01:05:42,709
that the case was fixed.
1351
01:05:42,792 --> 01:05:47,959
He used the term,
"We framed guilty people.
1352
01:05:48,041 --> 01:05:50,834
"We framed guilty people.
1353
01:05:52,125 --> 01:05:54,834
"We tampered
with the evidence
1354
01:05:54,917 --> 01:05:57,917
"in order to persuade
1355
01:05:58,000 --> 01:05:59,333
"the judge and the jury
1356
01:05:59,417 --> 01:06:03,041
that these guilty people
were, in fact, guilty."
1357
01:06:05,083 --> 01:06:10,166
In 1995, the CIA released
the Venona transcription
1358
01:06:10,250 --> 01:06:13,709
that attempted to prove that
the government was right
1359
01:06:13,792 --> 01:06:17,458
that Julius Rosenberg,
my father, was a spy.
1360
01:06:17,542 --> 01:06:19,792
Well, the media's reaction
was,
1361
01:06:19,875 --> 01:06:22,583
"The Rosenbergs are guilty."
1362
01:06:22,667 --> 01:06:25,125
We were skeptical of it.
But, of course,
1363
01:06:25,208 --> 01:06:28,875
I had to contemplate what would it mean if it were true.
1364
01:06:30,625 --> 01:06:34,333
If we agreed
that this stuff was real,
1365
01:06:34,417 --> 01:06:37,208
half of our case was
already made for us.
1366
01:06:37,291 --> 01:06:41,375
It was clear that your grandmother was not a spy.
1367
01:06:41,458 --> 01:06:43,000
She never got a codename!
1368
01:06:43,083 --> 01:06:46,250
♪ ♪
1369
01:06:48,375 --> 01:06:50,500
If the whole truth
had come out,
1370
01:06:50,834 --> 01:06:52,667
we would have known at the time
1371
01:06:52,750 --> 01:06:56,500
that Julius was guilty of being
a spy for the Soviet Union,
1372
01:06:56,583 --> 01:06:59,375
but that the information
he provided them
1373
01:06:59,458 --> 01:07:03,166
was not nearly as
important or critical
1374
01:07:03,250 --> 01:07:05,875
as the way the government
made it sound.
1375
01:07:06,375 --> 01:07:10,291
He was not the man
who "gave" the atomic bomb
1376
01:07:10,375 --> 01:07:13,250
to the Soviet Union.
1377
01:07:13,333 --> 01:07:15,250
The other thing
we would know for sure
1378
01:07:15,333 --> 01:07:17,834
is that Ethel Rosenberg
was not guilty
1379
01:07:17,917 --> 01:07:20,583
of the crime for
which she was charged.
1380
01:07:20,667 --> 01:07:23,250
But there was a plot afoot.
1381
01:07:24,375 --> 01:07:25,834
And the plot was,
1382
01:07:25,917 --> 01:07:28,208
from the highest
levels of government,
1383
01:07:28,291 --> 01:07:30,875
to frame Ethel Rosenberg
1384
01:07:30,959 --> 01:07:34,375
in order to get Julius
to wanna save her life
1385
01:07:34,458 --> 01:07:40,125
by ratting out the people
who he was in contact with.
1386
01:07:40,208 --> 01:07:44,041
I don't think we've ever had
a miscarriage of justice
1387
01:07:44,125 --> 01:07:47,625
that parallels the Rosenberg
case in my lifetime.
1388
01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:51,834
♪ ♪
1389
01:07:51,917 --> 01:07:53,917
You told me before
why you never wanted
1390
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,375
to go to the grave.
- Yeah, 'cause I didn't wanna
1391
01:07:56,458 --> 01:07:58,041
put myself
through the anguish
1392
01:07:58,125 --> 01:07:59,875
of actually seeing the grave.
1393
01:08:03,792 --> 01:08:07,625
Most of the reopening effort
was highly intellectual.
1394
01:08:07,709 --> 01:08:10,083
It involved arguing,
articulating...
1395
01:08:10,166 --> 01:08:11,583
In the case of my parents...
1396
01:08:11,667 --> 01:08:15,875
But there is a very,
very personal side to this.
1397
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:22,291
Remember, the family was broken up for a good two years.
1398
01:08:24,709 --> 01:08:29,291
The period of time when we visited them was so amazing.
1399
01:08:29,375 --> 01:08:30,750
Hugging them
and kissing them.
1400
01:08:30,834 --> 01:08:32,542
We played, we sang.
1401
01:08:33,959 --> 01:08:35,917
There was no pain
because it was always,
1402
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,000
"We've still got hope, and,
you know, see you next time."
1403
01:08:41,834 --> 01:08:43,750
The reason the last
visit was so terrible
1404
01:08:43,834 --> 01:08:46,917
was that there
was no next time.
1405
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:51,333
I was wailing, "One more day to live,
one more day to live."
1406
01:08:51,417 --> 01:08:53,875
Then they kissed us
and left.
1407
01:08:53,959 --> 01:08:57,041
♪ ♪
1408
01:09:12,542 --> 01:09:16,417
The last place I saw your
grandparents was Sing Sing.
1409
01:09:19,667 --> 01:09:25,166
Going to Sing Sing is a way of connecting to that 10-year-old.
1410
01:09:28,083 --> 01:09:30,333
Memory is important.
1411
01:09:34,625 --> 01:09:37,041
Reminding myself
of it is important.
1412
01:09:37,959 --> 01:09:40,625
There were times
in my teen years,
1413
01:09:40,709 --> 01:09:43,000
and in my 20s where...
1414
01:09:43,542 --> 01:09:46,458
the press of
everyday life would,
1415
01:09:46,542 --> 01:09:49,792
would sort of, take charge,
but I always...
1416
01:09:50,417 --> 01:09:54,125
I always reminded myself
where I came from.
1417
01:09:56,583 --> 01:10:00,041
♪ ♪
1418
01:10:27,500 --> 01:10:30,291
Roy Cohn represents
a type of person
1419
01:10:30,792 --> 01:10:32,792
who recurs throughout history.
1420
01:10:32,875 --> 01:10:35,208
Uh, we know
"the" Roy Cohn,
1421
01:10:35,291 --> 01:10:39,000
but every era has a Roy Cohn,
an opportunist,
1422
01:10:39,083 --> 01:10:42,875
somebody who will
stretch the law and ethics
1423
01:10:42,959 --> 01:10:47,917
to make the ends
justify the means.
1424
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:49,709
♪ ♪
1425
01:10:49,792 --> 01:10:53,083
This picture of Donald
and me hangs in my office.
1426
01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:57,083
He says, "Roy is
my greatest friend."
1427
01:10:59,333 --> 01:11:00,750
The man is, as I say,
1428
01:11:00,834 --> 01:11:03,208
the closest thing to a genius
I've ever met in my life.
1429
01:11:05,166 --> 01:11:06,750
When he sees an opportunity,
1430
01:11:06,834 --> 01:11:09,166
he's always there
to take it.
1431
01:11:09,250 --> 01:11:10,875
And I have a feeling
someday,
1432
01:11:10,959 --> 01:11:12,917
not too far distant future,
1433
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:14,250
you're gonna see Donald Trump
1434
01:11:14,333 --> 01:11:17,000
in other parts of
the country as well.
1435
01:11:18,834 --> 01:11:20,959
In the early '80s,
1436
01:11:21,041 --> 01:11:22,667
I was living in Washington,
1437
01:11:22,750 --> 01:11:26,000
and I had just joined
"The Washington Post."
1438
01:11:26,959 --> 01:11:29,959
After 30 years,
the Republicans were hot again.
1439
01:11:30,041 --> 01:11:32,083
And so, all of us,
as young reporters,
1440
01:11:32,166 --> 01:11:35,333
were pursuing all the new,
young operatives.
1441
01:11:35,417 --> 01:11:39,959
Among them was Roger Stone
and Paul Manafort.
1442
01:11:40,041 --> 01:11:42,291
And somewhere in there,
Roger Stone,
1443
01:11:42,375 --> 01:11:44,375
who I had cultivated
as a source,
1444
01:11:44,458 --> 01:11:47,500
said, "You need to meet
my friend, Roy Cohn."
1445
01:11:47,583 --> 01:11:49,792
Roy was very magnetic,
1446
01:11:49,875 --> 01:11:52,083
and he knew how to
cultivate the media.
1447
01:11:52,166 --> 01:11:53,625
I mean, I used
to see him at parties,
1448
01:11:53,709 --> 01:11:54,792
and, you know, he'd be in town.
1449
01:11:54,875 --> 01:11:56,291
He'd always stay
at the Madison,
1450
01:11:56,375 --> 01:11:58,083
which is across from
"The Post."
1451
01:11:58,166 --> 01:11:59,625
And he'd say,
"I'm over here at the bar.
1452
01:11:59,709 --> 01:12:01,125
Come on over
and have a drink."
1453
01:12:01,208 --> 01:12:02,792
And he would say, "I've
got a good story for you,"
1454
01:12:02,875 --> 01:12:05,000
but it always served
his purposes, too.
1455
01:12:05,083 --> 01:12:08,125
Which is how I came to do
a profile on Donald Trump.
1456
01:12:08,208 --> 01:12:10,125
♪ ♪
1457
01:12:10,208 --> 01:12:12,125
Throughout the whole
two hours I'm with him,
1458
01:12:12,208 --> 01:12:14,750
all Trump says is, "Either
you got it or you don't,"
1459
01:12:14,834 --> 01:12:16,291
about everything.
1460
01:12:16,375 --> 01:12:18,667
"Either you can get a table
at a restaurant or you can't.
1461
01:12:18,750 --> 01:12:20,458
Either you can do this
or you can't."
1462
01:12:21,583 --> 01:12:23,792
So, during the course
of this, he says,
1463
01:12:23,875 --> 01:12:26,250
"I could be the nuclear
arms negotiator."
1464
01:12:26,333 --> 01:12:28,375
He said, "I could know
everything there is to know
1465
01:12:28,458 --> 01:12:32,250
about missiles and nuclear arms in an hour and a half."
1466
01:12:34,750 --> 01:12:36,792
And he said, "You know,
Roy really wants me to do this.
1467
01:12:36,875 --> 01:12:41,375
Roy thinks that I would be a really good nuclear arms negotiator."
1468
01:12:41,458 --> 01:12:44,959
And during this period,
he apparently sends word back
1469
01:12:45,041 --> 01:12:47,166
to one of George Bush's
operatives
1470
01:12:47,250 --> 01:12:49,959
that he could be working
in the administration.
1471
01:12:50,041 --> 01:12:52,834
So, he was starting to feel
pretty heady about himself
1472
01:12:52,917 --> 01:12:55,875
and what he could be
doing in government.
1473
01:12:55,959 --> 01:12:58,625
Would you like
to be in a position
1474
01:12:58,709 --> 01:13:00,750
of negotiating disarmament?
1475
01:13:00,834 --> 01:13:02,667
Is that really
what's in your head?
1476
01:13:02,750 --> 01:13:05,709
I don't know who's negotiating
for us, who had in the past.
1477
01:13:05,792 --> 01:13:08,000
I used to watch,
under Jimmy Carter's regime,
1478
01:13:08,083 --> 01:13:10,000
I used to watch
people going over
1479
01:13:10,083 --> 01:13:11,417
and looking at these Russians.
1480
01:13:11,500 --> 01:13:12,792
And I could look
at the Russians,
1481
01:13:12,875 --> 01:13:14,625
and I could look at
these people on our side,
1482
01:13:14,709 --> 01:13:16,041
and I could say
there's no chance.
1483
01:13:16,125 --> 01:13:17,542
That's like the
Pittsburgh Steelers
1484
01:13:17,625 --> 01:13:19,500
playing my high school
football team.
1485
01:13:20,959 --> 01:13:23,667
Is it arrogant
of Donald Trump
1486
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:27,166
to even think about negotiating a treaty with the Russians?
1487
01:13:27,250 --> 01:13:28,583
It's not arrogance.
1488
01:13:28,667 --> 01:13:30,542
It's the fact that he sees
1489
01:13:30,625 --> 01:13:32,709
he has a talent
in a certain area.
1490
01:13:32,792 --> 01:13:36,625
Look, his next stop might
very well be Moscow.
1491
01:13:40,166 --> 01:13:44,417
I think what Roy Cohn
saw in Donald Trump
1492
01:13:44,500 --> 01:13:47,041
was sort of an
unpolished stone.
1493
01:13:47,834 --> 01:13:51,250
He had some smarts,
he had ambition, and he had money.
1494
01:13:51,333 --> 01:13:54,750
And he had nerve.
He wanted to shake things up.
1495
01:13:54,834 --> 01:13:58,667
Roy is building this foothold
in Washington, DC,
1496
01:13:58,750 --> 01:14:00,875
and Don wants a piece of this
1497
01:14:00,959 --> 01:14:03,000
and Roy wants him to
have a piece of it.
1498
01:14:03,083 --> 01:14:06,000
♪ ♪
1499
01:14:15,875 --> 01:14:18,625
There's this
wonderful photograph
1500
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:20,667
of Roy and his...
1501
01:14:20,750 --> 01:14:23,125
arm candy lover,
Peter Fraser,
1502
01:14:23,208 --> 01:14:25,917
at the White House
on a receiving line.
1503
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,500
And there's Nancy
and there's Ron.
1504
01:14:28,583 --> 01:14:32,500
He's introducing his
beautiful for-hire boyfriend,
1505
01:14:32,583 --> 01:14:35,291
and both he
and his lover, Peter,
1506
01:14:35,375 --> 01:14:36,959
are being received like royalty.
1507
01:14:37,041 --> 01:14:38,959
Like they're very
important people.
1508
01:14:39,041 --> 01:14:42,542
♪ ♪
1509
01:14:43,875 --> 01:14:46,500
In the early
through mid '80s,
1510
01:14:46,583 --> 01:14:51,667
Peter Fraser was
Roy's squeeze of choice.
1511
01:14:51,750 --> 01:14:54,542
Peter Fraser
was tall, blonde,
1512
01:14:54,625 --> 01:14:56,917
athletic-looking
New Zealander.
1513
01:14:58,792 --> 01:15:04,125
Roy got him made
the Aramis Man of the Year.
1514
01:15:04,208 --> 01:15:06,583
Aramis is the men's division
1515
01:15:06,667 --> 01:15:08,750
of Estée Lauder Cosmetics!
1516
01:15:08,834 --> 01:15:12,667
Estée and Joe Lauder
were Roy's 20-, 30-year-old,
1517
01:15:12,750 --> 01:15:15,875
right-wing, multi-millionaire
friends and clients.
1518
01:15:17,875 --> 01:15:20,834
Peter Fraser was
the kept partner,
1519
01:15:20,917 --> 01:15:24,959
and actually served
a function in the Roy orbit.
1520
01:15:26,250 --> 01:15:29,166
Here is a letter
dated February 1, '85,
1521
01:15:29,250 --> 01:15:31,959
on Saxe, Bacon, Bolan
letterhead.
1522
01:15:33,875 --> 01:15:35,291
"To Whom It May Concern,
1523
01:15:35,375 --> 01:15:37,834
"This is to confirm that
Peter Fraser's employed
1524
01:15:37,917 --> 01:15:40,250
"by the law firm
Saxe, Bacon, Bolan,
1525
01:15:40,333 --> 01:15:43,000
"and he resides at
the company house
1526
01:15:43,083 --> 01:15:45,583
"in Provincetown, Massachusetts.
1527
01:15:45,750 --> 01:15:48,458
Yours truly, Roy M. Cohn."
1528
01:15:49,083 --> 01:15:50,458
Wild.
1529
01:15:51,208 --> 01:15:53,709
"Pay to the order
of Peter Fraser."
1530
01:15:53,792 --> 01:15:56,166
$5,284.
1531
01:15:56,792 --> 01:15:59,083
See now, here are
credit card receipts
1532
01:15:59,166 --> 01:16:01,458
in Peter Fraser's name.
1533
01:16:01,542 --> 01:16:04,750
Now, Roy could not
use credit cards.
1534
01:16:04,834 --> 01:16:08,583
You know, 'cause any purchase
would be trackable,
1535
01:16:08,667 --> 01:16:12,083
and subject to, you know,
IRS scrutiny.
1536
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:15,834
Who was this? Oh my God,
this is more transfers.
1537
01:16:15,917 --> 01:16:17,041
Holy shit.
1538
01:16:17,125 --> 01:16:21,417
Bank of New Zealand for
$10,012.50.
1539
01:16:21,500 --> 01:16:23,125
On the same day,
1540
01:16:23,208 --> 01:16:26,458
there is another
transfer of $10,000.
1541
01:16:26,542 --> 01:16:28,792
Jesus Christ.
1542
01:16:28,875 --> 01:16:30,625
Deposits, $43,000,
1543
01:16:30,709 --> 01:16:33,750
$50,000, $90,000, $45,000,
1544
01:16:33,834 --> 01:16:35,375
$50,000.
1545
01:16:35,458 --> 01:16:38,166
You know, this is
money laundering.
1546
01:16:38,625 --> 01:16:41,834
You know,
Roy is using Peter as a cut-out.
1547
01:16:42,417 --> 01:16:45,166
You know what a cut-out
is in spy language?
1548
01:16:45,917 --> 01:16:48,709
You're on one side of the fence,
I'm on the other.
1549
01:16:48,792 --> 01:16:50,750
But, I have this guy over here,
1550
01:16:50,834 --> 01:16:52,375
and he gets everything I have,
1551
01:16:52,458 --> 01:16:54,667
even though you're
focusing on me.
1552
01:16:55,333 --> 01:16:57,166
I mean, I don't
know what these...
1553
01:16:57,250 --> 01:17:00,041
you know,
90 and $100,000 balances
1554
01:17:00,125 --> 01:17:02,250
in his accounts represent.
1555
01:17:02,333 --> 01:17:04,291
Where is that money coming from?
1556
01:17:04,375 --> 01:17:05,917
It's coming through Roy,
1557
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,500
but where is that coming from?
1558
01:17:08,583 --> 01:17:10,125
♪ ♪
1559
01:17:10,208 --> 01:17:12,291
Two years ago,
Richard Dupont had this idea.
1560
01:17:12,375 --> 01:17:15,333
He would open a health club
in the West Village for gays.
1561
01:17:15,417 --> 01:17:17,458
He took over an abandoned
six-story warehouse
1562
01:17:17,542 --> 01:17:19,417
on Greenwich Street
near Barrow,
1563
01:17:19,500 --> 01:17:20,709
and spent the next year
1564
01:17:20,792 --> 01:17:23,125
and almost $1 million
renovating it.
1565
01:17:23,667 --> 01:17:25,959
What I think most
people are afraid of
1566
01:17:26,041 --> 01:17:28,041
is the very fact
is they may see
1567
01:17:28,125 --> 01:17:30,834
homosexual people
as real people.
1568
01:17:30,917 --> 01:17:34,792
As people who aren't
deviants and perverts.
1569
01:17:34,875 --> 01:17:38,458
Richard Dupont originally
met Roy in Miami Beach,
1570
01:17:38,542 --> 01:17:42,291
where he turned a trick for
Roy as a gay prostitute.
1571
01:17:42,375 --> 01:17:44,500
Richard Dupont
was a grifter,
1572
01:17:44,583 --> 01:17:46,709
a guy who lived on his wits.
1573
01:17:47,208 --> 01:17:50,875
And such people could be
useful to Roy Cohn.
1574
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:20,583
And the guy decided
to wreck revenge,
1575
01:18:20,667 --> 01:18:23,792
and he got to Roy like
no one else got to Roy ever.
1576
01:18:23,875 --> 01:18:25,583
♪ ♪
1577
01:18:25,667 --> 01:18:27,667
He would call
the airline and say,
1578
01:18:27,750 --> 01:18:30,417
"This is Roy Cohn calling and...
1579
01:18:30,500 --> 01:18:34,125
you know my reservation for
2:00 to Texas? Cancel it."
1580
01:18:34,208 --> 01:18:37,041
So, Roy Cohn would show up
at the airport with his bags,
1581
01:18:37,125 --> 01:18:40,875
and his reservation
had been canceled.
1582
01:18:40,959 --> 01:18:42,917
At the Ford
shareholders meeting,
1583
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:46,834
a woman came with a delivery of flowers for him,
1584
01:18:46,917 --> 01:18:49,875
and the flowers were wilted.
1585
01:18:49,959 --> 01:18:52,375
There was a note with
the flowers saying,
1586
01:18:52,458 --> 01:18:54,792
"Roy Cohn can lick anyone."
1587
01:18:55,458 --> 01:18:58,625
I believe that was
a double entendre.
1588
01:18:59,750 --> 01:19:01,917
One morning,
where Roy's office was
1589
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:05,250
on East 68th Street,
for the whole block,
1590
01:19:05,333 --> 01:19:07,083
every five feet,
1591
01:19:07,166 --> 01:19:09,625
there was a stenciled
message.
1592
01:19:09,709 --> 01:19:11,834
"Roy Cohn is a fag."
1593
01:19:13,667 --> 01:19:16,250
Roy was going crazy.
1594
01:19:16,750 --> 01:19:20,000
I mean, this is the devil
visiting the devil, as it were.
1595
01:20:16,875 --> 01:20:18,625
I'm surprised he
didn't have him killed,
1596
01:20:18,709 --> 01:20:20,875
but maybe it would've
been too obvious.
1597
01:20:20,959 --> 01:20:22,917
He couldn't scare him off.
1598
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,291
And Dupont just kept going.
1599
01:20:33,625 --> 01:20:36,875
In 1980, on Gay Pride Day,
1600
01:20:36,959 --> 01:20:40,709
there was a publication of a magazine called "Now East,"
1601
01:20:40,792 --> 01:20:44,875
which contained all of Dupont's fantasies about Roy Cohn.
1602
01:20:44,959 --> 01:20:47,083
♪ ♪
1603
01:20:50,208 --> 01:20:55,500
It's obvious that you
are out to do in Roy.
1604
01:20:55,583 --> 01:20:58,834
Do you think that you'll outlast Roy?
- Oh God.
1605
01:20:58,917 --> 01:21:00,959
Oh God, the second issue.
1606
01:21:01,041 --> 01:21:04,166
The second issue is gonna do him in, you think?
- And the third issue.
1607
01:21:04,250 --> 01:21:05,333
And the third issue?
1608
01:21:05,417 --> 01:21:06,583
There's a third one
coming, too?
1609
01:21:06,667 --> 01:21:08,291
Yes, there'll be every issue.
1610
01:21:08,375 --> 01:21:10,417
I mean, how long is this
magazine gonna go on?
1611
01:21:10,500 --> 01:21:12,709
I mean, people eventually may
become bored with Roy Cohn.
1612
01:21:12,792 --> 01:21:15,792
I don't know whether they'll become bored with Roy Cohn or not.
1613
01:21:15,875 --> 01:21:17,583
I really don't know, Peter.
1614
01:21:19,291 --> 01:21:20,750
These were distributed.
1615
01:21:20,834 --> 01:21:22,208
They were left
in restaurants,
1616
01:21:22,291 --> 01:21:24,417
fancy clothing stores,
1617
01:21:24,500 --> 01:21:26,125
gay bars.
1618
01:21:26,959 --> 01:21:28,959
Roy was genuinely agitated,
1619
01:21:29,041 --> 01:21:32,500
and Roy didn't show
anxiety easily.
1620
01:21:33,125 --> 01:21:35,041
"I'm gonna get that motherfucker.
I'm gonna kill him.
1621
01:21:35,125 --> 01:21:37,458
I'm gonna put him away.
This is gonna end."
1622
01:21:37,542 --> 01:21:38,875
Tonight, we have a story
about a man
1623
01:21:38,959 --> 01:21:40,542
who is not charged
with a violent crime,
1624
01:21:40,625 --> 01:21:42,333
but he is the object
of a lot of attention
1625
01:21:42,417 --> 01:21:43,875
from the Manhattan
district attorney.
1626
01:21:43,959 --> 01:21:46,000
This is Richard Dupont.
1627
01:21:46,083 --> 01:21:50,041
He was arrested in,
what his lawyer described as, a pre-dawn raid
1628
01:21:50,125 --> 01:21:53,792
in which four detectives came crashing into his apartment.
1629
01:21:53,875 --> 01:21:56,834
I received information
from my client
1630
01:21:56,917 --> 01:21:58,959
that he had learned
1631
01:21:59,041 --> 01:22:01,041
from associates of Mr. Cohn
1632
01:22:01,125 --> 01:22:05,083
that he was to be
indicted on Friday.
1633
01:22:05,166 --> 01:22:08,834
"Were we here because
of 'Now East'? Baloney.
1634
01:22:08,917 --> 01:22:11,625
"We're here because
Richard had the temerity
1635
01:22:11,709 --> 01:22:15,458
to ignore that warning
and mess with Roy Cohn."
1636
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:27,333
♪ ♪
1637
01:22:27,417 --> 01:22:29,750
He was acquitted
the first two counts,
1638
01:22:29,834 --> 01:22:32,583
but he was convicted of
four or five misdemeanors.
1639
01:22:32,667 --> 01:22:35,917
Misdemeanor clients
don't go to penitentiaries.
1640
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:37,875
And I felt at the time,
1641
01:22:37,959 --> 01:22:40,083
given who he was dealing with,
1642
01:22:40,166 --> 01:22:42,083
uh, the, uh...
1643
01:22:42,166 --> 01:22:44,250
virtual member of
organized crime,
1644
01:22:44,333 --> 01:22:45,875
or the attorney Roy Cohn,
1645
01:22:45,959 --> 01:22:48,333
that Richard wouldn't have
lasted in a penitentiary.
1646
01:22:48,417 --> 01:22:50,083
And Richard Dupont,
as I recall,
1647
01:22:50,166 --> 01:22:52,709
served 18 months
in state prison.
1648
01:22:52,792 --> 01:22:54,291
For fuckin' with Roy Cohn!
1649
01:22:54,375 --> 01:22:57,291
Don't mess with Roy Cohn!
Moral of the story!
1650
01:23:08,208 --> 01:23:10,959
In the '80s, you could be
fired as a schoolteacher
1651
01:23:11,041 --> 01:23:13,625
if you were known
to be gay.
1652
01:23:13,709 --> 01:23:16,250
You could be denied
an apartment.
1653
01:23:16,333 --> 01:23:17,875
That happened constantly
1654
01:23:17,959 --> 01:23:20,250
in a liberal bastion
like New York City.
1655
01:23:21,041 --> 01:23:23,458
You could be denied service
1656
01:23:23,542 --> 01:23:26,333
in a restaurant or a bar!
1657
01:23:26,417 --> 01:23:27,583
You had no recourse.
1658
01:23:27,667 --> 01:23:30,000
For 15 years,
1659
01:23:30,083 --> 01:23:33,792
the Gay Rights Bill came up for a vote and it was voted down.
1660
01:23:33,875 --> 01:23:35,750
My greatest concern in life
1661
01:23:35,834 --> 01:23:37,625
is not about
open restaurants
1662
01:23:37,709 --> 01:23:39,875
or this Gay Rights Bill.
1663
01:23:39,959 --> 01:23:41,917
I think if you're
a man about things
1664
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:44,792
and you can fight
your own fights,
1665
01:23:44,875 --> 01:23:47,792
things come out okay
in the long run.
1666
01:23:47,875 --> 01:23:50,041
Roy Cohn was very involved
1667
01:23:50,125 --> 01:23:52,291
with politics
in New York City.
1668
01:23:52,375 --> 01:23:53,959
He was a lobbyist
and spokesperson
1669
01:23:54,041 --> 01:23:55,792
for the Archdiocese of New York,
1670
01:23:55,875 --> 01:23:57,291
which, in those years,
1671
01:23:57,375 --> 01:24:00,083
was very, very
powerful politically
1672
01:24:00,166 --> 01:24:02,250
because the Cardinal
of New York
1673
01:24:02,333 --> 01:24:05,000
had enormous control
and veto power
1674
01:24:05,083 --> 01:24:07,291
over legislation
in the City Council.
1675
01:24:08,583 --> 01:24:11,125
Roy Cohn started
making public comments.
1676
01:24:11,208 --> 01:24:14,250
...cannot be done, and the proof
is not in what we say,
1677
01:24:14,333 --> 01:24:15,625
but in the city...
1678
01:24:15,709 --> 01:24:17,959
First of all, I don't like
any of these rights bills.
1679
01:24:18,041 --> 01:24:19,250
Women's rights bill,
1680
01:24:19,333 --> 01:24:21,959
such as was defeated
in New York, very properly.
1681
01:24:22,041 --> 01:24:23,208
I don't like that.
1682
01:24:23,291 --> 01:24:25,083
If the Gay Rights Bill
goes to a referendum,
1683
01:24:25,166 --> 01:24:26,959
I think the people
will defeat that, too.
1684
01:24:27,041 --> 01:24:29,208
I think there are
features of that bill
1685
01:24:29,291 --> 01:24:33,041
that constitutes a clear
and present danger
1686
01:24:33,125 --> 01:24:36,583
to the upbringing of
children and to family life,
1687
01:24:36,667 --> 01:24:39,834
and I don't think it's
a cut-and-dried issue at all.
1688
01:24:39,917 --> 01:24:42,083
♪ ♪
1689
01:24:42,166 --> 01:24:45,792
Taking a very public,
hostile stance to gay people
1690
01:24:45,875 --> 01:24:49,291
made everybody
who wasn't in the know feel,
1691
01:24:49,375 --> 01:24:51,125
"Of course, there's a rumor
1692
01:24:51,208 --> 01:24:55,041
that Roy Cohn is a homosexual,
but that's ridiculous!"
1693
01:24:55,125 --> 01:24:58,166
The other thing was
the Catholic Church,
1694
01:24:58,250 --> 01:25:00,625
and they had
a similar problem.
1695
01:25:02,625 --> 01:25:04,083
Cardinal Spellman
was thought,
1696
01:25:04,166 --> 01:25:07,083
by many people,
to be gay.
1697
01:25:07,166 --> 01:25:10,417
He was a very close social
friend of Roy Cohn's,
1698
01:25:10,500 --> 01:25:13,625
and he was very,
very reactionary.
1699
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:18,291
That's the environment
that Roy Cohn reinforced
1700
01:25:18,375 --> 01:25:21,375
and pushed
and supported in a way
1701
01:25:21,458 --> 01:25:24,542
that oppressed
millions of people.
1702
01:25:24,625 --> 01:25:27,375
To know that this man
1703
01:25:27,458 --> 01:25:31,417
was actively gay
in his personal life
1704
01:25:31,500 --> 01:25:35,083
and his social life
and his sex life and so on.
1705
01:25:35,166 --> 01:25:38,792
Again, I say
the ninth circle of Hell
1706
01:25:38,875 --> 01:25:42,208
is reserved for hypocrites.
1707
01:25:42,417 --> 01:25:43,625
You feel pretty good.
1708
01:25:43,709 --> 01:25:45,917
- I feel great.
- Why?
1709
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:48,125
I mean, you were at death's door
1710
01:25:48,208 --> 01:25:49,709
six months ago,
three months ago.
1711
01:25:49,792 --> 01:25:51,959
I was shaving one morning,
and I had a...
1712
01:25:52,041 --> 01:25:53,709
I felt a little bump.
1713
01:25:53,792 --> 01:25:56,333
So I called the doctor,
he said come in.
1714
01:25:56,417 --> 01:25:59,959
And they did a biopsy,
and they found I had liver cancer,
1715
01:26:00,041 --> 01:26:03,375
uh, and they found that--
which spreads in...
1716
01:26:04,542 --> 01:26:06,166
strange directions,
1717
01:26:06,250 --> 01:26:09,458
and I was treated for
three and a half weeks
1718
01:26:09,542 --> 01:26:11,667
at the National
Institute of Health.
1719
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:13,959
♪ ♪
1720
01:26:14,041 --> 01:26:16,500
He told me he was in
an experimental program
1721
01:26:16,583 --> 01:26:17,875
for liver cancer.
1722
01:26:17,959 --> 01:26:19,792
I think they did
not actually have
1723
01:26:19,875 --> 01:26:21,792
an experimental program
for liver cancer.
1724
01:26:21,875 --> 01:26:23,625
It was trying AZT
and other drugs for AIDS.
1725
01:26:23,709 --> 01:26:26,250
Health officials will announce
today whether an anti-AIDS drug
1726
01:26:26,333 --> 01:26:29,625
is safe enough for widespread
use against the disease.
1727
01:26:29,709 --> 01:26:31,875
The drug AZT has been
tested for more than a year
1728
01:26:31,959 --> 01:26:34,792
on 140 AIDS patients
around the country.
1729
01:26:34,875 --> 01:26:36,750
While AZT does not
cure the disease,
1730
01:26:36,834 --> 01:26:39,166
it does reduce some
of its symptoms.
1731
01:26:39,250 --> 01:26:41,291
Did you get that radical
treatment at NIH
1732
01:26:41,375 --> 01:26:44,792
that that Dr. Rosenberg, I believe, is now doing?
- No.
1733
01:26:44,875 --> 01:26:48,542
- You did not undergo that?
- No. I did not undergo that.
1734
01:26:51,250 --> 01:26:53,125
- You scored!
- Impressively.
1735
01:26:53,208 --> 01:26:56,208
There may be 30 people in the whole country getting this drug?
1736
01:26:56,291 --> 01:26:57,792
Now, there are 31.
1737
01:26:57,875 --> 01:27:00,750
There are 100,000
people who need it.
1738
01:27:00,834 --> 01:27:03,583
♪ ♪
1739
01:27:09,625 --> 01:27:12,959
He spent a lot of time
here when he had AIDS.
1740
01:27:13,041 --> 01:27:15,542
That's when I would
see his poor,
1741
01:27:15,625 --> 01:27:17,125
diminished body
1742
01:27:17,208 --> 01:27:19,458
'cause I lost a lot
of friends, too.
1743
01:27:22,834 --> 01:27:24,417
The town was
so struck by AIDS.
1744
01:27:24,500 --> 01:27:27,625
I mean, three-quarters
of my friends died.
1745
01:27:28,959 --> 01:27:32,458
He was one of-- the whole
town was dying, basically.
1746
01:27:35,125 --> 01:27:37,417
I wonder what Roy thought
1747
01:27:37,500 --> 01:27:39,834
about the fact
that he got AIDS.
1748
01:27:40,375 --> 01:27:44,000
And those that escaped it,
and those that didn't,
1749
01:27:44,083 --> 01:27:46,500
but not Roy Cohn.
1750
01:27:46,583 --> 01:27:48,792
He shouldn't have gotten AIDS.
1751
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:51,500
Right?
1752
01:27:52,375 --> 01:27:54,500
I felt sorry for him.
1753
01:27:55,500 --> 01:27:58,250
Doesn't mean I liked him
or approved what he did,
1754
01:27:58,333 --> 01:28:00,959
but I felt sorry for him
as an individual.
1755
01:28:01,667 --> 01:28:04,166
He didn't hide in that corner.
It was right over there.
1756
01:28:04,250 --> 01:28:07,792
But-- but he didn't
want to be... out there,
1757
01:28:07,875 --> 01:28:11,000
and-- and he wanted to show
the poor kid he was with
1758
01:28:11,083 --> 01:28:12,875
that he did have a life here.
1759
01:28:12,959 --> 01:28:14,333
And he certainly couldn't
take him dancing
1760
01:28:14,417 --> 01:28:16,375
'cause he was at the point
where he couldn't walk,
1761
01:28:16,458 --> 01:28:18,000
never mind dance.
1762
01:28:19,041 --> 01:28:21,125
He was gay and he was sick.
1763
01:28:21,709 --> 01:28:25,458
And he's got this child with him
that he's infecting.
1764
01:28:25,542 --> 01:28:29,250
You know, this really is sick.
1765
01:28:29,333 --> 01:28:31,291
I was looking
at a broken man,
1766
01:28:31,375 --> 01:28:33,917
and he was everything
he didn't wanna be.
1767
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:37,083
♪ ♪
1768
01:28:37,834 --> 01:28:40,083
- Do you have AIDS?
- Oh, no.
1769
01:28:41,041 --> 01:28:42,583
That's easy to answer.
1770
01:28:47,166 --> 01:28:49,291
I'm goin', Ethel.
1771
01:28:49,750 --> 01:28:53,083
Finally, finally
done with this world
1772
01:28:53,166 --> 01:28:55,625
at long, long last.
1773
01:28:55,709 --> 01:28:59,333
The Almighty parts
the sea of death,
1774
01:28:59,417 --> 01:29:03,959
and lets his Roy boy
cross over to Jordan!
1775
01:29:04,583 --> 01:29:07,375
On dry land,
1776
01:29:07,458 --> 01:29:09,500
and still a lawyer.
1777
01:29:09,583 --> 01:29:12,375
Don't count your chickens, Roy.
1778
01:29:12,458 --> 01:29:14,625
It's over.
1779
01:29:15,542 --> 01:29:20,083
- Over?
- I wanted the news should come from me.
1780
01:29:20,959 --> 01:29:23,792
The panel ruled
against ya, Roy.
1781
01:29:23,875 --> 01:29:28,208
No, no, they only started
meeting two days ago...
1782
01:29:28,291 --> 01:29:30,875
They recommended disbarment!
1783
01:29:30,959 --> 01:29:33,542
Why do you think
they're after you?
1784
01:29:33,625 --> 01:29:35,500
There are disbarment
proceedings.
1785
01:29:35,583 --> 01:29:37,667
We're talking about two cases,
1786
01:29:37,750 --> 01:29:40,166
in neither one of which
anyone was injured
1787
01:29:40,250 --> 01:29:42,375
even slightly, except me.
1788
01:29:42,458 --> 01:29:45,208
He borrowed $100,000
from a client,
1789
01:29:45,291 --> 01:29:47,000
Iva Schlesinger, and then,
1790
01:29:47,083 --> 01:29:49,041
despite his numerous
written promises,
1791
01:29:49,125 --> 01:29:52,417
he failed to repay
her that $100,000.
1792
01:29:55,583 --> 01:29:57,625
Mm-hmm.
1793
01:30:03,792 --> 01:30:05,959
Pardon me?
1794
01:30:11,458 --> 01:30:14,083
Anyone who knows me
knows I don't plead.
1795
01:30:14,166 --> 01:30:16,000
And I'm not pleading
in this case.
1796
01:30:16,083 --> 01:30:17,709
He's fighting for his life,
1797
01:30:17,792 --> 01:30:22,417
and, on some level, more
importantly, his reputation.
1798
01:30:22,500 --> 01:30:25,625
He probably cried more
over the disbarment
1799
01:30:25,709 --> 01:30:28,250
than the AIDS diagnosis.
1800
01:30:28,333 --> 01:30:30,667
That's how important
it was to him.
1801
01:30:31,041 --> 01:30:33,417
In this last interview,
I show up in Florida,
1802
01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:34,959
and I was actually taken aback
1803
01:30:35,041 --> 01:30:37,125
because I hadn't seen him
in about a year,
1804
01:30:37,208 --> 01:30:40,208
and he was extremely frail.
1805
01:30:40,291 --> 01:30:42,917
He had lost a lot of weight,
he had to be helped into a chair,
1806
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:45,959
his clothes were baggy,
but he was game.
1807
01:30:46,041 --> 01:30:48,500
He wanted to get stuff
off of his chest,
1808
01:30:48,583 --> 01:30:50,458
and we talked
for an hour or so
1809
01:30:50,542 --> 01:30:52,166
in this mansion that was--
1810
01:30:52,250 --> 01:30:53,625
I don't even remember
whose it was,
1811
01:30:53,709 --> 01:30:56,083
but it was this beautiful
mansion on Worth Avenue.
1812
01:30:56,166 --> 01:30:57,750
And then we went
out to dinner.
1813
01:30:57,834 --> 01:30:59,417
And, um, and I asked him,
1814
01:30:59,500 --> 01:31:01,583
I said, "You know,
what do you think about now?
1815
01:31:01,667 --> 01:31:03,166
What do you dream about?"
And he said,
1816
01:31:03,250 --> 01:31:05,125
"You know, I dream about death,
1817
01:31:05,208 --> 01:31:07,250
and I think about my funeral."
1818
01:31:49,709 --> 01:31:51,500
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
1819
01:31:51,583 --> 01:31:54,583
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪
1820
01:31:57,417 --> 01:31:59,709
You have to make
a very special wish.
1821
01:31:59,792 --> 01:32:02,625
Did he feel that people
were abandoning him?
1822
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:05,834
I'm not sure that
he would ever show
1823
01:32:05,917 --> 01:32:07,875
that side of him.
1824
01:32:09,125 --> 01:32:13,125
But there are some of us
who don't abandon friends,
1825
01:32:13,208 --> 01:32:14,542
no matter what.
1826
01:32:15,750 --> 01:32:17,500
Donald was plugged in.
1827
01:32:17,583 --> 01:32:20,583
And I'm sure he had
heard that Roy had AIDS.
1828
01:32:20,667 --> 01:32:23,250
And when he's dying,
Trump pulls away,
1829
01:32:23,333 --> 01:32:25,458
and-- and it hurt Roy.
1830
01:32:25,542 --> 01:32:27,834
He felt like he had done
a lot to promote,
1831
01:32:27,917 --> 01:32:30,458
to help bring
Donald Trump along.
1832
01:32:30,542 --> 01:32:34,625
Ladies and gentlemen,
please join me in a salute to a winner,
1833
01:32:34,709 --> 01:32:36,625
and a friend,
Mr. Donald Trump.
1834
01:32:36,709 --> 01:32:38,208
♪ ♪
1835
01:32:40,291 --> 01:32:41,875
Thank you.
1836
01:32:41,959 --> 01:32:43,917
I would like to just
introduce quickly my family.
1837
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:46,166
My wife, Ivana,
my father, Fred,
1838
01:32:46,250 --> 01:32:49,083
my sister, the judge,
thanks to the President.
1839
01:32:51,291 --> 01:32:53,959
It was a wrenching
thing to watch.
1840
01:32:56,083 --> 01:32:59,041
But a lot of Roy's
so-called friends
1841
01:32:59,125 --> 01:33:01,583
blew him off after he got sick.
1842
01:33:05,375 --> 01:33:08,083
Roy Cohn, the unorthodox
and colorful lawyer
1843
01:33:08,166 --> 01:33:09,834
who may have made
more prominent enemies
1844
01:33:09,917 --> 01:33:12,500
and more prominent friends
than any American of his time,
1845
01:33:12,583 --> 01:33:13,834
is dead.
1846
01:33:13,917 --> 01:33:16,083
Cohn died early this morning
of a heart attack.
1847
01:33:16,166 --> 01:33:19,083
The virus HTLV-3, which
is believed to cause AIDS,
1848
01:33:19,166 --> 01:33:21,709
was listed as a secondary
cause of death.
1849
01:33:40,208 --> 01:33:42,458
How do you wanna
be remembered?
1850
01:33:42,542 --> 01:33:44,542
I have no choice
1851
01:33:44,625 --> 01:33:46,750
because I know I am
gonna be Joe McCarthy's
1852
01:33:46,834 --> 01:33:49,291
Chief Counsel
for the rest of my life,
1853
01:33:49,375 --> 01:33:52,667
no matter what else good
or bad I should ever do.
1854
01:33:56,583 --> 01:33:59,959
If you could turn back
the clock to 1953 or four,
1855
01:34:00,041 --> 01:34:02,709
would you do anything differently?
- Sure.
1856
01:34:02,792 --> 01:34:04,792
Who, 25 or 30 years later,
1857
01:34:04,875 --> 01:34:06,375
wouldn't do
something different?
1858
01:34:06,458 --> 01:34:08,291
What? Do you think
you were too abrasive
1859
01:34:08,375 --> 01:34:11,291
- as some people say?
- Sure.
1860
01:34:11,375 --> 01:34:13,542
But, I'm not sure if
I hadn't been too aggressive
1861
01:34:13,625 --> 01:34:16,000
if I could've
gotten any results.
1862
01:34:16,083 --> 01:34:17,792
What do you say
to people who say
1863
01:34:17,875 --> 01:34:19,333
you ruined people's lives?
1864
01:34:19,417 --> 01:34:22,375
I say name one.
1865
01:34:22,458 --> 01:34:25,709
Because I know what
the truth is and they don't.
1866
01:34:41,208 --> 01:34:42,834
♪ You're beautiful ♪
1867
01:34:42,917 --> 01:34:46,834
♪ More beautiful than me ♪
1868
01:34:46,917 --> 01:34:50,625
♪ You're honorable,
more honorable ♪
1869
01:34:50,709 --> 01:34:53,041
♪ Than me ♪
1870
01:34:53,125 --> 01:34:56,917
♪ Loyal to
the Bank of America ♪
1871
01:35:05,333 --> 01:35:08,417
♪ It's a sign of the times ♪
1872
01:35:09,458 --> 01:35:12,333
♪ It's a sign of the times ♪
1873
01:35:12,417 --> 01:35:14,583
♪ You're sharpening stones ♪
1874
01:35:14,667 --> 01:35:16,500
♪ Walking on coals ♪
1875
01:35:16,583 --> 01:35:20,333
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪
1876
01:35:20,417 --> 01:35:22,458
♪ Sharpening stones ♪
1877
01:35:22,542 --> 01:35:24,333
♪ Walking on coals ♪
1878
01:35:24,417 --> 01:35:28,291
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪
1879
01:35:28,375 --> 01:35:32,166
♪ Vested interest
united ties ♪
1880
01:35:32,250 --> 01:35:36,083
♪ Landed gentry rationalize ♪
1881
01:35:36,166 --> 01:35:39,125
♪ Look who bought the myth ♪
1882
01:35:40,125 --> 01:35:43,792
♪ By jingo, buy America ♪
1883
01:35:52,333 --> 01:35:56,250
♪ It's a sign of the times ♪
1884
01:35:56,333 --> 01:35:59,417
♪ It's a sign of the times ♪
1885
01:35:59,500 --> 01:36:01,583
♪ You're sharpening stones ♪
1886
01:36:01,667 --> 01:36:03,542
♪ Walking on coals ♪
1887
01:36:03,625 --> 01:36:07,417
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪
1888
01:36:07,500 --> 01:36:09,458
♪ Sharpening stones ♪
1889
01:36:09,542 --> 01:36:11,375
♪ Walking on coals ♪
1890
01:36:11,458 --> 01:36:15,250
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪
1891
01:36:15,333 --> 01:36:17,333
♪ Enemy sighted ♪
1892
01:36:17,417 --> 01:36:19,166
♪ Enemy met ♪
1893
01:36:19,250 --> 01:36:23,083
♪ I'm addressing
the realpolitik ♪
1894
01:36:23,166 --> 01:36:25,834
♪ Look who bought the myth ♪
1895
01:36:27,125 --> 01:36:30,709
♪ By jingo, buy America ♪
1896
01:36:35,750 --> 01:36:39,500
Let us not assassinate
this lad further, Senator.
1897
01:36:39,583 --> 01:36:41,542
You've done enough.
1898
01:36:41,625 --> 01:36:45,250
Have you no sense
of decency, sir,
1899
01:36:45,333 --> 01:36:46,792
at long last?
1900
01:36:46,875 --> 01:36:50,709
Have you left
no sense of decency?
1901
01:36:54,417 --> 01:36:57,959
♪ ♪
1902
01:36:58,041 --> 01:37:00,333
♪ You're sharpening stones ♪
1903
01:37:00,417 --> 01:37:02,208
♪ Walking on coals ♪
1904
01:37:02,291 --> 01:37:06,000
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪
1905
01:37:06,083 --> 01:37:08,125
♪ Sharpening stones ♪
1906
01:37:08,208 --> 01:37:10,041
♪ Walking on coals ♪
1907
01:37:10,125 --> 01:37:13,959
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪
1908
01:37:14,041 --> 01:37:16,250
♪ Enemy sighted ♪
1909
01:37:16,333 --> 01:37:17,834
♪ Enemy met ♪
1910
01:37:17,917 --> 01:37:21,875
♪ I'm addressing
the realpolitik ♪
1911
01:37:21,959 --> 01:37:23,458
♪ You've seen start ♪
1912
01:37:23,542 --> 01:37:25,625
♪ And you've seen quit ♪
1913
01:37:25,709 --> 01:37:29,500
♪ I've always thought
of you as quick ♪
1914
01:37:29,583 --> 01:37:32,125
♪ Exhuming McCarthy ♪
1915
01:37:33,291 --> 01:37:35,917
♪ Exhuming McCarthy ♪
1916
01:37:37,125 --> 01:37:39,625
♪ Exhuming McCarthy ♪
1917
01:37:41,041 --> 01:37:44,208
♪ Exhuming McCarthy ♪
1917
01:37:45,305 --> 01:38:45,758
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