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♪
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He was the real thing...
my father.
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I see his work, I see
how dedicated he was.
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He was, to me,
a great artist.
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But you can't--you can
never impose that on people.
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They have to make
their own decisions.
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The thought of what
he's done, all his work,
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I can't not but make sure that
it's held up and remembered...
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so I just want to see him
get his due.
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That's my responsibility.
11
00:01:45,573 --> 00:01:48,513
And he used to always say that
artists are always recognized
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00:01:48,609 --> 00:01:51,209
after they're long gone.
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Part of recognition
is, is luck.
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You have no control
over those things,
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00:02:00,588 --> 00:02:02,418
and so if that's what's
going to happen
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00:02:02,523 --> 00:02:05,423
then your time, hopefully,
will come later,
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00:02:05,526 --> 00:02:07,926
and we don't even
know if then.
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♪
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De NIRO: My father created
all this beautiful artwork.
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I only have his stuff.
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My mother's--
some of my mother's.
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We had a good relationship.
23
00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:05,446
He was very affectionate.
He was paternal.
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00:03:05,553 --> 00:03:08,353
He just didn't know certain
things as a father, what to do,
25
00:03:08,455 --> 00:03:11,155
but he was a very
loving father.
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00:03:13,394 --> 00:03:19,234
I respected him a great deal
and knew his art was special.
27
00:03:19,333 --> 00:03:22,373
He started at 5 years old.
He was very young.
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He felt he was different,
and he was different,
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not only as an artist,
for other reasons.
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He was not conventional.
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00:03:29,510 --> 00:03:31,540
He was from a small town.
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00:03:31,645 --> 00:03:36,475
And he probably felt
a certain amount of
rejection from his father.
33
00:03:36,584 --> 00:03:41,954
My grandfather was
classic, old-style,
kind of like, you know...
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00:03:42,056 --> 00:03:45,986
Italian American,
just, you know...
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00:03:46,093 --> 00:03:48,233
I just think he didn't
understand my father.
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♪
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De NIRO, SR., VOICE-OVER:
I wanted to be an artist since
the time I was in Kindergarten.
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There was nobody
I could practically
talk to about painting.
39
00:03:58,472 --> 00:04:00,472
I was very unhappy.
I went everyday and painted,
40
00:04:00,574 --> 00:04:02,644
but I was miserable there,
had no friends.
41
00:04:04,011 --> 00:04:05,811
Then I heard of Hofmann.
42
00:04:05,913 --> 00:04:09,923
I decided to try him, and I
went to him the next summer.
43
00:04:10,017 --> 00:04:13,417
And then it was quite different
because I was enthusiastic,
44
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,420
and I met people
that I thought like,
45
00:04:15,522 --> 00:04:18,162
and it was a whole--
another world.
46
00:04:20,094 --> 00:04:22,434
Prior to the Second World War,
47
00:04:22,529 --> 00:04:23,959
the art scene
was all about Europe.
48
00:04:24,064 --> 00:04:28,134
The surrealists were in Paris,
the Bauhaus was in Germany.
49
00:04:28,235 --> 00:04:31,565
With the Second World War,
an interesting shift
50
00:04:31,672 --> 00:04:33,942
came about here in
the United States,
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00:04:34,041 --> 00:04:35,511
especially in New York.
52
00:04:35,609 --> 00:04:41,809
You had artists fleeing Europe
to come to New York for safety
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00:04:41,915 --> 00:04:43,545
and setting up schools.
54
00:04:43,651 --> 00:04:46,451
And American artists are,
for the first time,
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00:04:46,553 --> 00:04:48,953
really having some
hands-on experience
56
00:04:49,056 --> 00:04:52,986
with the most avant-garde
trends in painting
57
00:04:53,093 --> 00:04:55,133
and architecture and design.
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00:04:55,229 --> 00:04:58,059
MAN: Hofmann
came from Germany
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and set up a school
which then went on
60
00:05:00,067 --> 00:05:01,767
for a very, very,
very long time.
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00:05:01,802 --> 00:05:04,102
And if you take all of the
Hofmann students, I mean,
62
00:05:04,204 --> 00:05:07,574
it's an enormously long
and distinguished list.
63
00:05:07,675 --> 00:05:10,435
Many, many, many really
first-rate artists
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00:05:10,544 --> 00:05:13,754
were his students or
proteges, in some cases.
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00:05:13,847 --> 00:05:17,217
♪
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00:05:17,318 --> 00:05:22,948
MAN: It was 1942, and there were
4 or 5 of us in that class
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00:05:23,057 --> 00:05:24,857
with Hans Hofmann.
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00:05:24,958 --> 00:05:28,928
Not only Bob, but
Virginia, his wife.
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00:05:29,029 --> 00:05:33,799
Hofmann, when he'd look
at the work, he did say
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00:05:33,901 --> 00:05:35,831
that his two best students--
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00:05:35,936 --> 00:05:41,036
and he had so many famous
artists as students--
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00:05:41,141 --> 00:05:44,911
that Bob and Virginia were the
best students he ever had.
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00:05:45,012 --> 00:05:46,952
Big compliment.
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00:05:47,047 --> 00:05:51,447
Bob and Virginia
met at Hofmann's.
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00:05:51,552 --> 00:05:55,952
Virginia was very impressed
with Bob's work.
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00:05:56,056 --> 00:05:59,726
And so, they hit it off.
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00:05:59,827 --> 00:06:05,127
I think he was handsome
'cause he was a little taller.
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00:06:05,232 --> 00:06:10,642
He had really blond hair
for a long time.
79
00:06:12,339 --> 00:06:16,439
MAN: And they had gotten
married and Bobby was a baby.
80
00:06:16,543 --> 00:06:19,913
He was a baby on the floor.
81
00:06:20,013 --> 00:06:24,183
And she's a very good
painter, Virginia Admiral--
82
00:06:24,284 --> 00:06:27,494
vivacious, good-looking,
very good to Bobby,
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00:06:27,588 --> 00:06:28,988
and excellent person.
84
00:06:29,089 --> 00:06:32,919
Virginia was the first one who
made it big when we got out.
85
00:06:33,026 --> 00:06:38,096
She had a great exhibition
at a big gallery
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00:06:38,198 --> 00:06:40,598
called Art of This Century.
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00:06:40,701 --> 00:06:44,901
The famous critics
gave her rave reviews.
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00:06:45,005 --> 00:06:49,405
MAN: I think it's very
complex why she didn't
continue to paint.
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00:06:49,510 --> 00:06:52,440
I think she felt very guilty
that she wasn't painting,
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00:06:52,546 --> 00:06:55,776
'cause I think she admired Bob
for the fact that he just
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00:06:55,883 --> 00:06:57,953
didn't let anything
get in his way.
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00:06:58,051 --> 00:06:59,751
De NIRO: I don't really feel
she gave it up.
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00:06:59,853 --> 00:07:01,893
She just moved
to something else.
94
00:07:01,922 --> 00:07:04,492
And maybe she felt she couldn't
really do it, ultimately,
95
00:07:04,591 --> 00:07:06,321
or she was as far as she
could go as an artist.
96
00:07:06,427 --> 00:07:08,857
Not that she didn't try. She was
doing things in her studio.
97
00:07:08,962 --> 00:07:14,902
And her argument was always
that she needed to be
practical to support me.
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00:07:15,002 --> 00:07:18,902
♪
99
00:07:19,006 --> 00:07:22,766
KRESCH: When the son must have
been about a year old,
100
00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:27,406
there was a big rift,
big rift.
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00:07:27,514 --> 00:07:29,454
De NIRO: Why they couldn't stay
together, they were different.
102
00:07:29,550 --> 00:07:32,580
Maybe his sexuality.
I don't know where
that stood at that point.
103
00:07:34,121 --> 00:07:36,921
My father wrote a lot about
his life in his journals,
104
00:07:37,024 --> 00:07:39,664
which gives me an idea of
what he was going through.
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00:07:44,998 --> 00:07:48,998
"If God doesn't want me to be
a homosexual, about which I
have so much guilt,
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00:07:49,102 --> 00:07:53,212
"he will find a woman whom I
will love and who will love me
107
00:07:53,307 --> 00:07:55,337
"or at least create
an interest in me
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00:07:55,442 --> 00:07:57,942
in women as sexual partners."
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00:07:58,045 --> 00:08:01,845
Obviously, I realize now
that it was hard for him.
110
00:08:01,882 --> 00:08:07,122
He had a lot of what it
seems like classic
conflicts about all that.
111
00:08:07,221 --> 00:08:09,351
My mother and I spoke
about it a little bit,
112
00:08:09,456 --> 00:08:13,386
and he was very quiet
with whatever he did
'cause I never was--
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00:08:13,494 --> 00:08:15,394
He's not gonna tell me.
I'm his son, you know?
114
00:08:15,496 --> 00:08:18,126
I'm the last
person to know.
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00:08:20,434 --> 00:08:25,944
KRESCH: And Bob said,
"I'm leaving.
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00:08:26,039 --> 00:08:28,769
"I...that's it.
117
00:08:28,876 --> 00:08:31,406
I don't want to
stay here anymore."
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00:08:31,512 --> 00:08:36,622
And he got a place. I think
that's when he lived near me.
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00:08:42,089 --> 00:08:45,419
De NIRO: They divorced
when I was around 11 or 12,
120
00:08:45,526 --> 00:08:48,656
but they separated when I was
around 2 or 3 or something.
121
00:08:48,762 --> 00:08:51,932
My mother and father
were always friends,
122
00:08:52,032 --> 00:08:53,932
and she always
would help him, too,
123
00:08:54,034 --> 00:08:57,474
and be supportive
of him and his work.
124
00:08:57,571 --> 00:08:58,941
I wouldn't see him that often.
125
00:08:59,039 --> 00:09:01,369
Sometimes I'd see him in
the street, I'd run into him,
126
00:09:01,408 --> 00:09:04,378
you know, or I'd
see him on his bike.
127
00:09:04,478 --> 00:09:07,378
He liked to take me to movies.
So, I remember seeing--
128
00:09:07,481 --> 00:09:10,381
is it "Beauty and the Beast"
that was Cocteau?
129
00:09:10,484 --> 00:09:13,894
I can't remember.
Charlie Chaplin...
130
00:09:13,987 --> 00:09:15,887
the original
"King Kong", I think.
131
00:09:15,989 --> 00:09:19,389
And we'd go to movies
on 42nd Street.
132
00:09:19,493 --> 00:09:21,393
He liked me
to go to his shows,
133
00:09:21,495 --> 00:09:23,395
which I didn't want to
do when I was young,
134
00:09:23,497 --> 00:09:27,327
but my kids
are the same way, so...
135
00:09:27,434 --> 00:09:29,904
One of my father's first
big opportunities
136
00:09:30,003 --> 00:09:34,513
was when he had a show at
Peggy Guggenheim's
Art of This Century.
137
00:09:34,608 --> 00:09:37,908
I'm sure it meant
a lot to him.
138
00:09:38,011 --> 00:09:41,451
STORR: Peggy Guggenheim
was a power broker
139
00:09:41,548 --> 00:09:43,748
who had gone to Europe,
140
00:09:43,850 --> 00:09:47,520
befriended most of the
great modernists of Paris
141
00:09:47,621 --> 00:09:49,051
and then came back
during the war
142
00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:51,256
and founded a gallery called
Art of This Century.
143
00:09:51,358 --> 00:09:54,728
It was in this context that
she was first presenting
144
00:09:54,828 --> 00:09:59,428
American artists as the
peers of all of these
famous European artists.
145
00:09:59,533 --> 00:10:03,943
And so, to have Peggy
Guggenheim pick you for a show
146
00:10:04,037 --> 00:10:06,907
was a very, very big deal
and it made reputations.
147
00:10:07,007 --> 00:10:11,177
♪
148
00:10:15,048 --> 00:10:17,448
KELLY: De Niro exhibited
in the Fall Salon
149
00:10:17,551 --> 00:10:21,451
at The Art of This Century
gallery in 1945.
150
00:10:21,555 --> 00:10:24,955
The show was largely made
up of abstract paintings,
151
00:10:25,058 --> 00:10:29,998
but the figures influenced by
Analytical Cubism were still,
152
00:10:30,097 --> 00:10:32,697
to some extent, recognizable.
153
00:10:35,002 --> 00:10:38,572
The figurative strain in
his work soon took over,
154
00:10:38,672 --> 00:10:43,212
influenced by Ingres,
Corot and Courbet.
155
00:10:44,645 --> 00:10:48,505
MAN: His entry into the art
world was that he captured the
156
00:10:48,615 --> 00:10:51,345
attention of this art world.
157
00:10:51,451 --> 00:10:53,921
He would certainly have
gotten reviews
158
00:10:54,021 --> 00:10:55,991
in all of the art magazines.
159
00:10:56,089 --> 00:11:00,229
Clement Greenberg
was a potent voice.
160
00:11:01,928 --> 00:11:05,058
De NIRO: "Peggy Guggenheim
has discovered another
important abstract painter
161
00:11:05,165 --> 00:11:06,925
"at her Art of
This Century gallery--
162
00:11:07,034 --> 00:11:10,974
"Robert De Niro, whose first
show exhibits monumental effects
163
00:11:11,071 --> 00:11:14,011
rare in abstract art."
164
00:11:14,107 --> 00:11:19,077
KELLY: Thomas Hess was the
editor of "Art News."
165
00:11:19,179 --> 00:11:23,109
Hess developed a series,
which became very popular
166
00:11:23,216 --> 00:11:26,886
and which Robert De Niro, Sr.
was a part of.
167
00:11:26,987 --> 00:11:29,487
STORR: In terms of power people,
starting with Peggy Guggenheim
168
00:11:29,589 --> 00:11:31,659
and Tom Hess, you couldn't
have done better in those years.
169
00:11:31,758 --> 00:11:35,288
Right away, when we
got out of Hofmann's,
170
00:11:35,395 --> 00:11:37,755
this is when he started selling.
171
00:11:37,864 --> 00:11:40,174
He got very good write-ups.
172
00:11:40,267 --> 00:11:44,737
And he was still young,
maybe in his early 30s,
173
00:11:44,838 --> 00:11:50,008
he was already painting
like someone very mature.
174
00:11:50,110 --> 00:11:54,780
He found his way very early
and didn't much change
175
00:11:54,881 --> 00:11:58,181
in 30 or 40 years
of painting.
176
00:11:58,285 --> 00:12:01,245
He didn't have the struggle
that many of us had with going
177
00:12:01,288 --> 00:12:03,418
this way or that way
to find our way.
178
00:12:03,523 --> 00:12:06,763
He had known right
away what he was.
179
00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:08,430
His studio, I mean,
this was it.
180
00:12:08,528 --> 00:12:13,798
It was really like this
moving, live, active place.
181
00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:16,940
I remember being little
and him painting me.
182
00:12:17,037 --> 00:12:19,937
I was annoyed, I remember,
that I had to do it that day.
183
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,410
I felt everybody else
was out playing.
184
00:12:22,509 --> 00:12:25,439
But I remember he
kind of dressed me,
put something on me...
185
00:12:25,545 --> 00:12:28,845
a hat...and he'd
just work away.
186
00:12:28,949 --> 00:12:30,949
And as I got older, I was--
187
00:12:31,051 --> 00:12:32,981
and I really learned more
about his work,
188
00:12:33,086 --> 00:12:35,416
I was proud that he chose me
189
00:12:35,522 --> 00:12:38,962
to be one of them because
it wasn't just like
anybody could sit down.
190
00:12:39,059 --> 00:12:43,189
♪
191
00:12:46,566 --> 00:12:48,466
STORR: Robert De Niro's
way of painting...
192
00:12:48,568 --> 00:12:50,098
he was not
an abstract painter.
193
00:12:50,203 --> 00:12:51,873
He was a still-life painter.
He was a landscape painter.
194
00:12:51,972 --> 00:12:53,742
He was a figure painter.
195
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,440
De Niro entered into
still-life painting
196
00:12:56,543 --> 00:13:00,483
at a point where it probably was
thought by many people
197
00:13:00,580 --> 00:13:02,650
as an unexciting option.
198
00:13:02,749 --> 00:13:06,789
But what he managed to do was
to find a way to paint set-ups
199
00:13:06,887 --> 00:13:12,317
that were so straightforward
and so without pretension
200
00:13:12,425 --> 00:13:15,555
that all you thought about was,
"How did he actually do that?"
201
00:13:15,662 --> 00:13:17,332
They don't look like
anybody else's still-life.
202
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:19,630
I can't name an artist
that they look like,
203
00:13:19,733 --> 00:13:22,003
even though I have seen
an awful lot of paintings.
204
00:13:22,102 --> 00:13:26,972
KELLY: De Niro was influenced by
the masters and he had a keen
interest, especially,
205
00:13:27,073 --> 00:13:29,343
in the French avant-garde--
206
00:13:29,442 --> 00:13:31,182
Georges Rouault...
207
00:13:34,915 --> 00:13:37,015
Pierre Bonnard...
208
00:13:40,921 --> 00:13:42,691
Andre Derain...
209
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:48,690
Henri Matisse...
210
00:13:51,631 --> 00:13:53,931
STORR: Now, if you take
Matisse as a model,
211
00:13:54,034 --> 00:13:57,844
Matisse made a very
famous painting
"Luxe, Calme et Volupte"--
212
00:13:57,938 --> 00:14:01,408
luxuriousness, calm,
and voluptuousness.
213
00:14:01,441 --> 00:14:03,941
And there's a lot of that
in De Niro, basically.
214
00:14:04,044 --> 00:14:06,614
He paints his pleasure.
215
00:14:06,713 --> 00:14:12,353
De NIRO, SR., SINGING:
♪ Bundle up your cares and woe,
here I go, singin' low ♪
216
00:14:12,452 --> 00:14:16,962
♪ Bye, Bye, Blackbird ♪
217
00:14:17,057 --> 00:14:19,657
[Continues singing in French]
218
00:14:24,464 --> 00:14:27,434
♪ Au revoir ♪
219
00:14:27,534 --> 00:14:29,074
[Continues humming tune]
220
00:14:29,169 --> 00:14:33,239
KRESCH: Bob was very funny.
221
00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:36,940
He would be walking along
and he'd say something,
222
00:14:37,043 --> 00:14:40,513
and it would be
hilarious, you know?
223
00:14:40,614 --> 00:14:45,484
ELLIS: I knew him to be
this kind of energetic,
dazzling guy
224
00:14:45,585 --> 00:14:46,945
with a great sense of humor.
225
00:14:47,053 --> 00:14:49,453
DRENA De NIRO:
He loved music.
226
00:14:49,556 --> 00:14:53,656
He'd have a song that he
became fixated on,
227
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,960
and he wouldn't be able
to hear it enough
and he'd dance and sing.
228
00:14:59,065 --> 00:15:01,665
KRESCH: He liked
going to parties.
229
00:15:01,701 --> 00:15:05,401
Bob loved to dance, and he
was very good at that time.
230
00:15:05,505 --> 00:15:08,935
I think it was called the
Jitterbug or the Lindy Hop.
231
00:15:09,042 --> 00:15:13,182
Very fast on his feet.
232
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:14,980
I remember he loved Paris.
233
00:15:15,081 --> 00:15:19,051
He always had a real
thing for Paris.
234
00:15:19,152 --> 00:15:21,292
KRESCH: He taught
himself French.
235
00:15:21,388 --> 00:15:23,188
He didn't go to any classes.
236
00:15:23,290 --> 00:15:26,020
So that he wrote poetry.
237
00:15:26,126 --> 00:15:28,826
We used to go to
foreign films.
238
00:15:28,929 --> 00:15:30,959
And, of course, Greta Garbo.
239
00:15:31,064 --> 00:15:35,174
He was insane
about Greta Garbo.
240
00:15:38,939 --> 00:15:42,509
Give me a whiskey.
Ginger ale on the side.
241
00:15:43,843 --> 00:15:46,443
And don't be stingy, baby.
242
00:15:46,546 --> 00:15:50,476
KELLY: A subject that De Niro
returned to repeatedly
243
00:15:50,583 --> 00:15:51,953
was Greta Garbo,
244
00:15:52,052 --> 00:15:56,192
specifically in her role
as Anna Christie.
245
00:15:57,557 --> 00:16:01,527
His depictions of her are
always that first scene
246
00:16:01,561 --> 00:16:05,061
in the bar when she delivers
her famous first line.
247
00:16:05,165 --> 00:16:08,425
Garbo, and her melancholy
that she depicted in films
248
00:16:08,535 --> 00:16:10,635
that she also experienced
in her life,
249
00:16:10,737 --> 00:16:13,867
there was something about that
that really fascinated him.
250
00:16:13,974 --> 00:16:18,244
And it could have been that he
saw in it a relation to his own
251
00:16:18,345 --> 00:16:22,505
struggles with melancholy
and with depression.
252
00:16:22,615 --> 00:16:26,575
Bob was going to a show
of his on 57th Street.
253
00:16:26,686 --> 00:16:30,416
He was going up
in the elevator,
254
00:16:30,523 --> 00:16:33,933
and she's in that
elevator with him!
255
00:16:34,027 --> 00:16:38,097
And he had paintings
of her upstairs.
256
00:16:38,198 --> 00:16:41,098
And he chickened out.
257
00:16:41,201 --> 00:16:44,201
He could not get to talk
to her and tell her,
258
00:16:44,304 --> 00:16:45,944
and she got out and left.
259
00:16:46,039 --> 00:16:50,939
That was a big thing
that he missed on.
260
00:16:51,044 --> 00:16:55,184
♪
261
00:17:02,722 --> 00:17:07,132
KELLY: The expressionist element
in Robert De Niro Sr.'s painting
262
00:17:07,227 --> 00:17:09,887
developed gradually and
a little bit later.
263
00:17:09,996 --> 00:17:13,796
He first showed with the
Abstract Expressionist artists
264
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:15,630
at the Charles Egan Gallery.
265
00:17:20,006 --> 00:17:22,906
And later, he
came to be associated
266
00:17:23,009 --> 00:17:26,779
with a group of figural
and colorist painters,
267
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,210
which included Nell Blaine,
268
00:17:30,316 --> 00:17:32,876
Leland Bell,
269
00:17:32,986 --> 00:17:35,416
Al Kresch,
270
00:17:35,522 --> 00:17:38,862
and Paul Resika.
271
00:17:38,958 --> 00:17:42,688
The Abstract Expressionists
were actually not a movement.
272
00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:46,726
They were a group of artists
that were given that label
273
00:17:46,833 --> 00:17:51,943
by art critics, and they were,
by and large, gestural,
274
00:17:52,038 --> 00:17:55,908
painterly painters who
had learned a great deal
from Picasso,
275
00:17:56,009 --> 00:17:58,939
a great deal from Miro,
a great deal from Kandinsky.
276
00:17:59,045 --> 00:18:03,475
They broke through the
dominance of European painting
277
00:18:03,583 --> 00:18:06,353
in the history of modernism
and established the first,
278
00:18:06,453 --> 00:18:10,093
internationally recognized
American school of painting.
279
00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:11,860
The fact of the matter is,
though, that they couldn't
280
00:18:11,958 --> 00:18:13,688
have been more different,
one to the other.
281
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,130
They painted in a way that
looked that they were totally
282
00:18:16,229 --> 00:18:19,259
plugged in to what was
new and lively.
283
00:18:19,365 --> 00:18:23,965
He enters the art world
with the older generation,
284
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:30,010
the older artists of the
New York School--
the Abstract Expressionists:
285
00:18:30,110 --> 00:18:31,710
Pollock,
286
00:18:31,811 --> 00:18:33,741
de Kooning,
287
00:18:33,847 --> 00:18:35,777
Rothko.
288
00:18:35,882 --> 00:18:39,252
He shows with the greats and
he's identified with them,
289
00:18:39,352 --> 00:18:43,492
but then that doesn't last
long and somehow he doesn't
290
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:49,230
really connect with the
artists of the New York School
291
00:18:49,329 --> 00:18:52,659
although he has many close
friends among them but doesn't
292
00:18:52,765 --> 00:18:55,425
sort of join any
of their groups.
293
00:18:55,535 --> 00:19:00,735
KELLY: There came in the late
1940s into the early 1950s--
294
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,880
there became a real shift in
New York, in the art scene.
295
00:19:03,977 --> 00:19:07,907
The Abstract Expressionists
were really hailed as
the new generation,
296
00:19:08,014 --> 00:19:10,384
and De Niro
was a part of,
297
00:19:10,483 --> 00:19:14,093
and yet separate from
that group of artists.
298
00:19:14,187 --> 00:19:16,687
He was never an Abstract
Expressionist painter.
299
00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:18,959
He was always a
figurative painter.
300
00:19:19,058 --> 00:19:21,488
They left him behind.
They left him out.
301
00:19:21,594 --> 00:19:23,904
He didn't fit.
302
00:19:23,997 --> 00:19:25,897
He wasn't abstract.
303
00:19:25,999 --> 00:19:28,569
In a certain way
he wasn't abstract.
304
00:19:28,668 --> 00:19:31,398
He was very abstract...
in a certain way.
305
00:19:31,504 --> 00:19:33,404
"Too French,"
they all said...
306
00:19:33,506 --> 00:19:35,936
you know,
"not American enough."
307
00:19:36,042 --> 00:19:37,912
All that bullshit.
308
00:19:38,011 --> 00:19:41,551
♪
309
00:19:41,648 --> 00:19:45,378
De NIRO, VOICE-OVER:
"I feel tense and resentful.
I should be showing now.
310
00:19:47,787 --> 00:19:52,517
"At our last meeting,
he said that de Kooning makes
15,000 a year from his work.
311
00:19:52,625 --> 00:19:54,455
"I am possibly jealous.
312
00:19:54,561 --> 00:19:56,161
God save me from that."
313
00:19:58,798 --> 00:20:02,968
I remember vividly walking
with him one night,
314
00:20:03,069 --> 00:20:06,839
and as we approached
the Cedar Bar on
University Place, I said,
315
00:20:06,940 --> 00:20:08,440
"Let's go in, Bobby."
316
00:20:08,541 --> 00:20:14,651
He said, "I never cross
the threshold of this place."
317
00:20:14,747 --> 00:20:16,947
And that was the artists'
bar, you understand.
318
00:20:17,050 --> 00:20:19,920
The Cedar Bar was the place
where the whole thing--
319
00:20:20,019 --> 00:20:25,489
where Franz Kline was
and de Kooning and
Jackson Pollock
320
00:20:25,592 --> 00:20:27,432
and everybody was in there.
321
00:20:27,527 --> 00:20:30,457
But he wouldn't even
walk into the bar,
is what I'm saying.
322
00:20:30,563 --> 00:20:33,463
He considered
himself superior.
323
00:20:33,566 --> 00:20:35,966
And that gives you
a picture of Bobby.
324
00:20:36,069 --> 00:20:39,069
He thought quite
highly of himself.
325
00:20:39,172 --> 00:20:41,472
And since I thought
so highly of him,
326
00:20:41,574 --> 00:20:43,944
we were good friends.
Ha ha ha!
327
00:20:44,043 --> 00:20:50,453
KRESCH: De Kooning and his
friends, they had this
competitive thing,
328
00:20:50,550 --> 00:20:54,590
so you didn't hear him
talking much about Bob.
329
00:20:54,687 --> 00:20:59,357
And since Bob wasn't
going out of the way
to go to their openings,
330
00:20:59,459 --> 00:21:02,529
they didn't go to
his openings, and so on.
331
00:21:02,629 --> 00:21:05,959
So...there was a coolness.
332
00:21:06,065 --> 00:21:09,795
And Bobby, who was younger
than those guys, had arrived
333
00:21:09,902 --> 00:21:12,772
at the kind of New York
painting before them--
334
00:21:12,872 --> 00:21:14,442
painting in
a meaty style.
335
00:21:14,540 --> 00:21:18,880
So, in a certain way,
he's the first of
a certain kind of painting
336
00:21:18,978 --> 00:21:21,978
even though he's been
marginalized by the art world.
337
00:21:22,081 --> 00:21:24,951
What was going on
in painting at that time,
I did not agree with.
338
00:21:25,051 --> 00:21:29,851
When I showed at Peggy
Guggenheim's, finally,
339
00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:33,086
I was showed with Pollock and
those people, and I did not
340
00:21:33,192 --> 00:21:36,992
agree with their thinking and
their painting and so on.
341
00:21:37,096 --> 00:21:38,426
Yeah.
342
00:21:38,531 --> 00:21:41,801
And I saw them all become,
you know, famous and rich,
343
00:21:41,901 --> 00:21:46,001
and I could have followed that
path, I suppose. I had the...
344
00:21:46,105 --> 00:21:48,965
if I had gone along with
Greenberg and the rest.
345
00:21:49,075 --> 00:21:51,275
I didn't want it and
I couldn't have done it.
346
00:21:51,377 --> 00:21:54,477
I couldn't see it
make any sense to me.
347
00:21:54,580 --> 00:21:58,920
SANDLER: Being on the scene
would have been important.
348
00:21:59,018 --> 00:22:01,788
He was a loner.
349
00:22:01,821 --> 00:22:07,431
He was known to be depressed
or have periods of depression.
350
00:22:07,527 --> 00:22:09,227
KRESCH: He was very touchy.
351
00:22:09,329 --> 00:22:14,269
If he even misunderstood that
someone said something that
352
00:22:14,367 --> 00:22:18,767
went against him, that person
was no longer a friend.
353
00:22:18,871 --> 00:22:23,271
And I think there wasn't one
of his friends that he didn't
354
00:22:23,376 --> 00:22:24,736
have that with.
355
00:22:24,844 --> 00:22:28,054
I think he obsessed
about things
356
00:22:28,147 --> 00:22:30,917
and about things that
weren't going his way.
357
00:22:31,017 --> 00:22:34,587
He did talk about some analyst.
He saw a psychiatrist,
358
00:22:34,687 --> 00:22:38,957
gave him some medication--
anti-depressants? Who knows?
359
00:22:39,058 --> 00:22:43,188
♪
360
00:22:46,532 --> 00:22:50,472
De NIRO, VOICE-OVER: "I feel
that I've hardly the courage at
this moment to wash my brushes,
361
00:22:50,570 --> 00:22:53,440
"which have been standing
in turpentine for days.
362
00:22:53,539 --> 00:22:57,539
"It may be true that
love finds you, or one
doesn't search for it,
363
00:22:57,643 --> 00:23:00,213
but I don't think it'll
come knocking at my door."
364
00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:05,876
"The pills don't help
or the prayers either.
365
00:23:05,985 --> 00:23:09,885
"God, God, God...
I am past the point where
I can walk the streets
366
00:23:09,989 --> 00:23:14,159
looking for a gallery
or a lover either,
for that matter."
367
00:23:18,898 --> 00:23:23,428
I remember I was instrumental
in getting him into a gallery.
368
00:23:23,536 --> 00:23:25,866
It was in Graham,
Graham Gallery.
369
00:23:25,972 --> 00:23:27,512
He was a very good dealer.
370
00:23:27,607 --> 00:23:31,937
He had several shows there,
and then he heard
there was some problem,
371
00:23:32,044 --> 00:23:34,454
that Graham had done
something to some artist,
372
00:23:34,547 --> 00:23:36,407
and he quit the gallery.
373
00:23:36,516 --> 00:23:40,446
Absolutely. Turned out
that Graham was actually
very scrupulous
374
00:23:40,553 --> 00:23:42,193
and loved his work
and was excellent,
375
00:23:42,288 --> 00:23:43,648
but it didn't matter.
376
00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:48,156
He hated every dealer he had
anything to do with.
377
00:23:48,261 --> 00:23:54,701
But then what happens
around 1958, really by 1962,
378
00:23:54,801 --> 00:24:01,141
certainly by 1960, is--
I've always referred to it
379
00:24:01,174 --> 00:24:03,374
as a "Blood Bath."
380
00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:07,306
There is a radical
change in style.
381
00:24:07,413 --> 00:24:11,653
♪
382
00:24:22,028 --> 00:24:27,428
A young generation of artists,
led by abstract painters like
383
00:24:27,533 --> 00:24:32,743
Frank Stella and pop artists
like Andy Warhol,
384
00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:36,509
hard-edged painters
like Ellsworth Kelly--
385
00:24:36,609 --> 00:24:39,939
what they do is they suppress
386
00:24:40,046 --> 00:24:44,946
the painterly quality in their
work, and this is really what
387
00:24:45,051 --> 00:24:51,391
most interested De Niro--
the energy of paint, the sweep
388
00:24:51,491 --> 00:24:56,591
of paint, the movement of paint,
rather...always his emphasis.
389
00:24:56,696 --> 00:25:00,456
And suddenly this becomes
very unfashionable.
390
00:25:00,566 --> 00:25:04,636
♪
391
00:25:10,843 --> 00:25:18,153
In large measure, Bob De Niro
was a victim of his time.
392
00:25:20,219 --> 00:25:22,419
I began to think, "I don't know
what's going on today."
393
00:25:22,522 --> 00:25:27,422
I mean, I could never...the
whole scene was beyond me.
394
00:25:27,527 --> 00:25:32,427
And I didn't know what to
think because you never know
395
00:25:32,532 --> 00:25:36,932
how it's gonna turn out, and
you have such a hard time that
396
00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:41,236
you sometimes think badly,
you know what I mean?
397
00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:44,170
It's a very difficult
situation.
398
00:25:47,547 --> 00:25:50,807
KRESCH: Well,
it just wasn't good.
399
00:25:50,917 --> 00:25:54,987
And the money was a big,
big problem.
400
00:25:55,087 --> 00:25:56,747
It was hard times,
401
00:25:56,856 --> 00:26:01,756
especially 'cause he had
all these reviews from
the "New York Times"
402
00:26:01,794 --> 00:26:06,934
from his first show that
were magnificent, you know?
403
00:26:07,033 --> 00:26:10,833
Sometimes when I visited his
studio, he'd have a couple
of them on the floor,
404
00:26:10,937 --> 00:26:12,897
I guess to remind him.
405
00:26:13,005 --> 00:26:15,005
♪
406
00:26:15,107 --> 00:26:17,777
"Not enough sales to live like
a human being and to help
407
00:26:17,877 --> 00:26:19,177
"Bobby and Virginia.
408
00:26:19,278 --> 00:26:22,908
"Everything depends on money,
of which I have little.
409
00:26:23,015 --> 00:26:27,415
Has my prayer been all for
nothing and is there no God?"
410
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,420
He was very particular
about what art is
411
00:26:30,523 --> 00:26:36,633
and was not in favor of
what was happening
after, you know, say,
412
00:26:36,729 --> 00:26:39,559
the obvious one is
like an Andy Warhol
or something like that.
413
00:26:39,665 --> 00:26:42,425
He would just go on,
you know, talking to my mother,
414
00:26:42,535 --> 00:26:46,665
this...rambling
about this or that.
415
00:26:48,541 --> 00:26:52,981
SANDLER: And he wasn't going to
change his style just because
416
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:58,579
what I'm sure he considered
a fashion--probably hated it.
417
00:26:58,684 --> 00:27:02,894
And I know other artists
who did and that anger
418
00:27:02,989 --> 00:27:06,119
sustained them,
you know.
419
00:27:06,225 --> 00:27:09,785
STORR: There's no question that
it was profoundly disconcerting
420
00:27:09,895 --> 00:27:13,125
to have the Pop Artists
come along and change
421
00:27:13,232 --> 00:27:15,572
the look of art,
the rules of the game, and--
422
00:27:15,668 --> 00:27:18,738
and this is a crucial thing--
to make popular culture,
423
00:27:18,838 --> 00:27:21,938
commercial Americana,
the subject of painting.
424
00:27:22,041 --> 00:27:23,441
And that was a huge shift.
425
00:27:23,542 --> 00:27:24,912
KELLY: In the face of that,
426
00:27:25,011 --> 00:27:30,881
why not go to Paris and
immerse yourself in the art
427
00:27:30,983 --> 00:27:34,393
with which you've been
so completely enthralled
for decades
428
00:27:34,487 --> 00:27:41,457
and work on your own art
and see how you can grow
in that environment
429
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:42,930
and then bring it back.
430
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:47,159
♪
431
00:27:51,570 --> 00:27:52,970
De NIRO: He went to France.
432
00:27:53,072 --> 00:27:57,442
I remember there was,
like, a going-away party
for him on the boat.
433
00:27:57,543 --> 00:28:01,153
And I was 17,
and he went away.
434
00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:05,620
KELLY: It was a challenging time
for him, I think, emotionally.
435
00:28:05,718 --> 00:28:07,648
It was a productive
time for him.
436
00:28:07,753 --> 00:28:08,893
He made a lot of art.
437
00:28:08,988 --> 00:28:14,928
But the shift of focus of
contemporary art was here,
438
00:28:15,027 --> 00:28:17,957
not only in the United States,
but in New York.
439
00:28:18,064 --> 00:28:20,404
De NIRO: My father was
having trouble in France.
440
00:28:20,499 --> 00:28:23,799
He was not doing well,
so he'd send me letters.
441
00:28:23,903 --> 00:28:28,343
And this is one of them:
"Dear Bobby, I hate
to bother you again
442
00:28:28,441 --> 00:28:31,141
"but I've become sick
with all the trouble
I've had recently.
443
00:28:31,243 --> 00:28:33,583
"I'm trying to prevent
being hospitalized.
444
00:28:33,679 --> 00:28:37,079
"When I get in better shape,
I would like to come back.
445
00:28:37,183 --> 00:28:39,623
"You know how much I love
you and always have.
446
00:28:39,719 --> 00:28:43,449
"You saved my life last
summer and I hope you
will do it again now.
447
00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:45,956
"You are an angel
and you always were.
448
00:28:46,058 --> 00:28:47,958
Love, Dad."
449
00:28:48,060 --> 00:28:51,900
I went there when I was...22,
450
00:28:51,997 --> 00:28:55,927
and I knew that he was there
and I had to see him
and make sure he was OK.
451
00:28:56,035 --> 00:28:57,425
I said, "We have to
get out there.
452
00:28:57,536 --> 00:28:59,966
We got to bring these
paintings to show to people."
453
00:29:00,072 --> 00:29:01,842
We had some of his
paintings.
454
00:29:01,874 --> 00:29:08,884
I literally was carrying
his paintings in the
Left Bank to art galleries
455
00:29:08,981 --> 00:29:12,351
and dragging him along to
show them to art dealers.
456
00:29:12,451 --> 00:29:15,351
You don't come in
unsolicited that way.
457
00:29:15,454 --> 00:29:18,424
It's just not done.
And me, what did I know?
458
00:29:18,524 --> 00:29:19,894
I just said,
"Let's bring it around."
459
00:29:19,992 --> 00:29:24,392
So, we did that for a while,
and that didn't--a week or two--
460
00:29:24,497 --> 00:29:26,257
and then finally
that wasn't...
461
00:29:26,365 --> 00:29:28,025
there was no response.
462
00:29:28,134 --> 00:29:30,904
He was not happy.
We were having a hard time.
463
00:29:31,003 --> 00:29:33,903
He wasn't getting any kind of
recognition, if you will, there.
464
00:29:34,006 --> 00:29:37,436
I knew he had to come back,
and I made him come back.
465
00:29:37,543 --> 00:29:42,183
♪
466
00:29:42,281 --> 00:29:44,411
De NIRO, VOICE-OVER:
"Bobby has always managed
to visit me in Europe
467
00:29:44,517 --> 00:29:47,277
"at the opportune moment to
help me through a shock,
468
00:29:47,386 --> 00:29:49,546
"such as the one in Paris,
and to give me courage
469
00:29:49,655 --> 00:29:52,155
to leave an
unbearable situation."
470
00:29:53,993 --> 00:29:57,933
"It was he who practically
pushed me on the plane
to return to New York.
471
00:29:58,030 --> 00:30:02,000
Thank you, God, for Bobby's
having turned out so well."
472
00:30:04,537 --> 00:30:08,337
As I started doing better
and better as an actor,
473
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:16,450
I was happy that things were
going all right with me
'cause it could help us all.
474
00:30:16,549 --> 00:30:20,179
The obvious one is I say
that my mother and father
475
00:30:20,286 --> 00:30:24,856
certainly wouldn't be happy
if I was selling insurance.
476
00:30:24,957 --> 00:30:29,927
They would never not approve
of me wanting to be an actor.
477
00:30:31,630 --> 00:30:33,460
"We ran into Bobby
on the street.
478
00:30:33,566 --> 00:30:36,766
"He is tan from a sunlamp
for his new movie part.
479
00:30:36,869 --> 00:30:39,469
"I wanted to run my
fingers through his hair
and to kiss him,
480
00:30:39,572 --> 00:30:42,872
but I hardly think he
would have appreciated it."
481
00:30:42,975 --> 00:30:48,045
I know he was proud and
also felt probably
resentful on one level
482
00:30:48,147 --> 00:30:52,617
that he was not getting
the recognition that
he felt he deserved,
483
00:30:52,718 --> 00:30:55,118
but he was always
proud, you know,
484
00:30:55,221 --> 00:30:58,561
and would never
say anything to me.
485
00:30:58,657 --> 00:31:02,427
You know, once, he got mad,
and was yelling and ranting.
486
00:31:02,528 --> 00:31:04,288
"You know, I should have
gotten recognition."
487
00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:06,296
And I went, "Ah, well..."
488
00:31:06,398 --> 00:31:08,928
But then he would
always say how artists
don't get recognition
489
00:31:09,034 --> 00:31:10,474
till after they're dead.
490
00:31:10,569 --> 00:31:11,969
He would always say that.
491
00:31:12,071 --> 00:31:13,941
And I said, "That makes sense,
from what I know."
492
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:18,179
♪
493
00:31:23,616 --> 00:31:27,346
"Being a painter
is an affection,
like being a homosexual.
494
00:31:27,453 --> 00:31:30,023
"One has to have the strength
to continue working without
495
00:31:30,122 --> 00:31:33,462
"the thought of recognition,
either before or after death,
496
00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:36,059
"just as one had to have the
strength to accept life alone
497
00:31:36,161 --> 00:31:39,201
without the thought of
a romantic attachment."
498
00:31:50,509 --> 00:31:56,479
With reference to Bob De Niro,
about his need to paint
499
00:31:56,582 --> 00:31:59,152
in spite of lack of
recognition, whatever...
500
00:31:59,251 --> 00:32:01,451
he just had to paint.
501
00:32:01,487 --> 00:32:03,787
Sure, you go on painting.
502
00:32:03,889 --> 00:32:06,889
After all, there's
Michelangelo back there,
503
00:32:06,992 --> 00:32:10,462
Pierro della Francesca,
Velázquez.
504
00:32:10,562 --> 00:32:12,762
These are your gods.
505
00:32:12,865 --> 00:32:15,865
You're painting for the
greater glory of art.
506
00:32:15,968 --> 00:32:19,438
Not for anybody
out there, really.
507
00:32:19,538 --> 00:32:21,808
You're painting for the big
guys up there and you're
508
00:32:21,907 --> 00:32:25,077
trying to emulate them and,
if possible, to beat them
509
00:32:25,177 --> 00:32:28,947
and hopefully to live for
the ages like they do.
510
00:32:29,048 --> 00:32:33,178
♪
511
00:32:47,066 --> 00:32:49,466
De NIRO: Then he did have it and
then he was not dealing with it,
512
00:32:49,568 --> 00:32:50,968
and the doctor would
call me and say,
513
00:32:51,070 --> 00:32:52,670
"Have him come in.
Have him come."
514
00:32:52,771 --> 00:32:57,441
And I was really...so busy
with everything in my own life
515
00:32:57,543 --> 00:33:01,283
that I didn't think of
sometimes--I might have
called him and said,
516
00:33:01,313 --> 00:33:02,983
"Dad, you gotta go there.
You gotta go."
517
00:33:03,082 --> 00:33:05,482
"Yeah." And he would avoid it.
He was avoiding it.
518
00:33:05,584 --> 00:33:10,294
He was scared to go back
and even deal with it.
519
00:33:10,389 --> 00:33:14,729
I regret that to this day,
because I think if I had
really been on him...
520
00:33:14,827 --> 00:33:19,457
All I know was that later on,
he was bed-ridden, sick...
521
00:33:19,565 --> 00:33:21,365
then he went to my mother's.
522
00:33:21,467 --> 00:33:23,927
We had nurses there and so on.
523
00:33:24,036 --> 00:33:29,166
He died on his 71st birthday
and died of prostate cancer.
524
00:33:31,844 --> 00:33:35,914
But I wish that I'd been
more--because I think
he would have lived...
525
00:33:36,015 --> 00:33:38,945
he could have lived
till now.
526
00:33:39,051 --> 00:33:43,191
♪
527
00:33:45,057 --> 00:33:49,357
SANDLER: Even today,
I don't think he's gotten
528
00:33:49,461 --> 00:33:51,431
the recognition he deserves.
529
00:33:51,530 --> 00:33:56,730
♪
530
00:33:56,835 --> 00:34:01,905
STORR: De Niro's legacy is
still, in a way, up for grabs.
531
00:34:02,007 --> 00:34:03,937
Individual artists
have moments.
532
00:34:04,043 --> 00:34:06,643
It has nothing to do with
whether they're good or not.
533
00:34:06,745 --> 00:34:09,945
It has to do with the
culture's taste
534
00:34:10,049 --> 00:34:12,819
and appetites shifting.
535
00:34:12,918 --> 00:34:16,548
But everybody who has a way of
making something is like
536
00:34:16,655 --> 00:34:19,915
the actor who's on stage and
the spotlight shifts to them
537
00:34:20,025 --> 00:34:22,585
and then shifts away, but if
they're still doing it when
538
00:34:22,694 --> 00:34:25,934
the spotlight comes back,
they'll have another
great moment.
539
00:34:26,031 --> 00:34:28,171
That would have happened to
De Niro, very likely.
540
00:34:35,774 --> 00:34:38,944
De NIRO, VOICE-OVER:
"Will I be recognized
in my lifetime?
541
00:34:39,044 --> 00:34:41,954
"Have I delusions of grandeur
by believing that sometime,
542
00:34:42,047 --> 00:34:45,277
"someday, someone will be
interested in reading
543
00:34:45,384 --> 00:34:46,954
what I write here each day?"
544
00:34:47,052 --> 00:34:51,192
♪
545
00:35:06,605 --> 00:35:09,635
The reason I kept this
studio is for my kids...
546
00:35:12,544 --> 00:35:14,954
for them to know what
their grandfather did.
547
00:35:15,047 --> 00:35:19,447
So...as I say,
548
00:35:19,551 --> 00:35:22,421
you know, being a kid I
wasn't that interested in his,
549
00:35:22,521 --> 00:35:26,891
you know, going to shows and
all that but I realized
550
00:35:26,992 --> 00:35:33,932
how important it is for children
to appreciate the things
that your parents did
551
00:35:34,032 --> 00:35:35,932
if they want
to share them with you.
552
00:35:36,034 --> 00:35:40,174
♪
553
00:35:45,878 --> 00:35:48,678
'Cause I regret certain things
with my parents...
554
00:35:53,085 --> 00:35:55,185
that I didn't follow through on.
555
00:35:58,891 --> 00:36:03,931
I feel it's my obligation to
kind of document what he did,
556
00:36:04,029 --> 00:36:05,899
to keep it going.
557
00:36:05,998 --> 00:36:12,268
♪
558
00:36:12,371 --> 00:36:14,571
The whole reason to do
it is for my father...
559
00:36:14,673 --> 00:36:18,643
♪
46544
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