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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:04:45,535 --> 00:04:48,787 --> (Srebnik synger pÃ¥ polsk) j & A lille hvide hus 2 00:04:48,913 --> 00:04:52,666 --> j & dvæler i min hukommelse 3 00:04:52,792 --> 00:04:56,086 --> j & Af dette lille hvide hus 4 00:04:56,212 --> 00:04:59,089 --> j & jeg drømmer hver nat 5 00:04:59,674 --> 00:05:02,759 --> j & Vinduerne i det lille hus 6 00:05:02,885 --> 00:05:06,430 --> j & smukt skinne i solen 7 00:05:06,556 --> 00:05:09,933 --> j & Som om en eller andens øjne 8 00:05:10,059 --> 00:05:13,145 --> j & pÃ¥fyldning med tÃ¥rer 9 00:05:13,271 --> 00:05:17,024 --> j & Der var sÃ¥ meget lykke i det lille hus 10 00:05:17,150 --> 00:05:19,609 --> j& And so many joyous days 11 00:05:19,736 --> 00:05:23,113 --> j& When I remember those blissful moments 12 00:05:23,239 --> 00:05:26,616 --> j& My heart trembles 13 00:05:26,743 --> 00:05:30,245 --> j& A little white house 14 00:05:30,371 --> 00:05:33,457 --> j& Lingers in my memory 15 00:05:34,042 --> 00:05:37,419 --> j& Of that little white house 16 00:05:37,545 --> 00:05:39,796 --> j& I dream each night j& 17 00:05:39,922 --> 00:05:45,177 --> (Man j& 1 speaking Polish) 18 00:05:46,971 --> 00:05:49,848 --> (Female interpreter in French) He was 13 and a half years old. 19 00:05:49,974 --> 00:05:53,643 --> He had a lovely singing voice and we heard him. 20 00:05:53,770 --> 00:05:56,271 --> j& A little white house 21 00:05:56,397 --> 00:05:59,066 --> j& Lingers in my memory 22 00:05:59,192 --> 00:06:01,651 --> j& Of that little white house 23 00:06:01,778 --> 00:06:04,654 --> j& I dream each night 24 00:06:04,781 --> 00:06:07,699 --> j& The windows of that little house 25 00:06:07,825 --> 00:06:10,786 --> j& Beautifully shine in the sun 26 00:06:10,912 --> 00:06:13,997 --> j& As if someone's eyes 27 00:06:14,123 --> 00:06:17,793 --> j& Were filling with tears j& 28 00:06:23,174 --> 00:06:25,509 --> (Man j&3 speaking Polish) 29 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:32,641 --> (Interpreter) When I heard him again, my heart beat faster, 30 00:06:32,767 --> 00:06:36,144 --> because what happened here... was a murder. 31 00:06:36,979 --> 00:06:39,856 --> I really relived what happened. 32 00:07:14,350 --> 00:07:16,476 --> (Sighs and coughs) 33 00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:47,591 --> (In German) It's hard to recognise, but it was here. 34 00:07:49,844 --> 00:07:53,847 --> They burned people here. 35 00:07:53,973 --> 00:07:56,641 --> A lot of people were burned here. 36 00:08:07,278 --> 00:08:09,696 --> Yes, this is the place. 37 00:08:22,376 --> 00:08:24,127 --> (Crow caws) 38 00:08:46,317 --> 00:08:49,986 --> No one ever left here again. 39 00:08:57,578 --> 00:09:00,038 --> The gas vans came in here... 40 00:09:00,164 --> 00:09:02,832 --> There were two huge ovens... 41 00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:05,919 --> (Sighs) 42 00:09:06,045 --> 00:09:10,048 --> ...and after ward, the bodies were thrown 43 00:09:10,883 --> 00:09:13,760 --> into these ovens, 44 00:09:13,886 --> 00:09:16,680 --> and the flames reached to the sky. 45 00:09:16,806 --> 00:09:19,808 --> - (Lanzmann in German) To the sky? - Ja. 46 00:09:23,479 --> 00:09:25,605 --> It was terrible. 47 00:09:34,448 --> 00:09:38,702 --> No one can describe it. 48 00:09:38,828 --> 00:09:42,080 --> No one can... 49 00:09:42,206 --> 00:09:46,084 --> recreate what happened here. 50 00:09:48,421 --> 00:09:51,172 --> Impossible! And no one can understand it. 51 00:09:52,008 --> 00:09:54,718 --> Even I, here, now. 52 00:10:02,602 --> 00:10:05,020 --> I can't believe I'm here. 53 00:10:07,857 --> 00:10:10,650 --> No, I just can't believe it. 54 00:10:22,872 --> 00:10:25,707 --> It was always this peaceful here. 55 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:33,006 --> When they burned 2,000 people... Jews... every day, 56 00:10:33,132 --> 00:10:35,216 --> it was just as peaceful. 57 00:10:37,511 --> 00:10:41,556 --> No one shouted. Everyone went about his work. 58 00:10:41,682 --> 00:10:43,808 --> It was silent. Peaceful. 59 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:46,603 --> Just as it is now. 60 00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:59,074 --> (Srebnik singing in German) 61 00:11:04,872 --> 00:11:06,498 --> (Cattle lowing) 62 00:11:15,508 --> 00:11:19,177 --> j& You, girl, don't you cry 63 00:11:19,303 --> 00:11:22,305 --> j& Don't be so sad 64 00:11:22,431 --> 00:11:25,809 --> j& For the dear summer is nearing 65 00:11:25,935 --> 00:11:28,061 --> j& And I'll return with it 66 00:11:28,187 --> 00:11:31,398 --> j& A mug of red wine, a slice of roast 67 00:11:31,524 --> 00:11:34,818 --> j& That's what the girls give their soldiers 68 00:11:42,118 --> 00:11:45,412 --> j& When the soldiers march along 69 00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:48,832 --> j& The girls open their doors and windows... j& 70 00:11:56,632 --> 00:11:59,342 --> (Man j& 1 speaking Polish) 71 00:12:00,469 --> 00:12:05,098 --> (Interpreter in French) They thought the Germans made him sing on the river. 72 00:12:05,224 --> 00:12:07,350 --> (Men speaking Polish) 73 00:12:09,395 --> 00:12:12,313 --> (Interpreter) He was a toy to amuse them. 74 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,567 --> He had to do it. 75 00:12:15,693 --> 00:12:18,153 --> He sang, but his heart wept. 76 00:12:22,908 --> 00:12:26,161 --> (Lanzmann in French) Do their hearts weep thinking about that now? 77 00:12:26,287 --> 00:12:28,913 --> - (Men reply) - (Interpreter) Certainly, very much so. 78 00:12:29,039 --> 00:12:31,708 --> (Man j&2 continues) 79 00:12:36,088 --> 00:12:38,965 --> (Interpreter) They still talk about it around the family table. 80 00:12:39,091 --> 00:12:42,177 --> (Man j&2 continues) 81 00:12:42,303 --> 00:12:45,054 --> It was public, so everyone knew of it. 82 00:12:46,599 --> 00:12:48,391 --> (Speaks Polish) 83 00:12:50,770 --> 00:12:54,105 --> He said that was true German irony... 84 00:12:56,984 --> 00:12:59,652 --> ...people were being killed, and he had to sing. 85 00:13:01,322 --> 00:13:03,448 --> That's what I thought. 86 00:13:06,452 --> 00:13:09,204 --> (Lanzmann) What died in him in Chelmno? 87 00:13:10,414 --> 00:13:12,791 --> (Speaks Yiddish) 88 00:13:18,214 --> 00:13:20,715 --> (Female Interpreter j&2 in French) Everything died. 89 00:13:20,841 --> 00:13:23,134 --> But he's only human, and he wants to live. 90 00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:25,595 --> So he must forget. 91 00:13:26,931 --> 00:13:30,642 --> The other survivor: MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK - ISRAEL 92 00:13:32,186 --> 00:13:34,187 --> (Interpreter j&2 speaks Yiddish) 93 00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:51,412 --> He thanks God for what remains and that he can forget. 94 00:13:51,539 --> 00:13:53,623 --> And let's not talk about that. 95 00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:59,420 --> (Lanzmann) Does he think it's good to talk about it? 96 00:13:59,547 --> 00:14:02,882 --> (Interpreter j&2 speaks Yiddish) 97 00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:08,763 --> For me it's not good. 98 00:14:13,435 --> 00:14:16,229 --> (Lanzmann) Then why is he talking about it? 99 00:14:16,355 --> 00:14:18,773 --> (Speaking Yiddish) 100 00:14:32,121 --> 00:14:35,373 --> Because you're insisting on it. 101 00:14:35,499 --> 00:14:40,420 --> He was sent books on the Eichmann trial, where he was a witness, 102 00:14:40,546 --> 00:14:43,006 --> and he didn't even read them. 103 00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:51,598 --> (Lanzmann) He survived, but is he really alive, or...? 104 00:15:16,707 --> 00:15:19,834 --> (Interpreter) At the time, he felt as if he were dead, 105 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,129 --> because he never thought he'd survive, 106 00:15:23,255 --> 00:15:26,090 --> but... he's alive. 107 00:15:30,846 --> 00:15:33,389 --> (Lanzmann) Why does he smile all the time? 108 00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:45,193 --> (Interpreter) What do you want him to do, cry? 109 00:15:45,319 --> 00:15:47,320 --> Sometimes you smile, sometimes you cry. 110 00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,908 --> And if you're alive, it's better to smile. 111 00:15:56,205 --> 00:16:00,500 --> (Lanzmann in French) Why was she so curious about this story? 112 00:16:00,626 --> 00:16:04,087 --> (Female Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew) 113 00:16:04,213 --> 00:16:06,214 --> (Speaking Hebrew) 114 00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:11,052 --> HANNA ZAIDL - ISRAEL 115 00:16:11,595 --> 00:16:15,598 --> DAUGHTER OF MOTKE ZAIDL, SURVIVOR OF VILNA (LITHUANIA) 116 00:16:46,755 --> 00:16:49,465 --> (Interpreter j&3 in French) It's a long story. 117 00:16:49,591 --> 00:16:54,137 --> As a child, I had little contact with my father. 118 00:16:54,263 --> 00:16:57,807 --> He went out to work, and I didn't see much of him. 119 00:16:57,933 --> 00:17:01,519 --> Besides, he was a silent man, he didn't talk to me. 120 00:17:01,645 --> 00:17:06,065 --> And when I grew up and was strong enough to face him, 121 00:17:06,191 --> 00:17:09,777 --> I questioned him. I never stopped questioning him 122 00:17:09,903 --> 00:17:14,073 --> until I got at the scraps oftruth he couldn't tell me. 123 00:17:14,199 --> 00:17:17,910 --> It came out haltingly. 124 00:17:18,037 --> 00:17:20,079 --> I had to tear the details out of him, 125 00:17:20,205 --> 00:17:26,002 --> and finally, when Mr. Lanzmann came, 126 00:17:26,128 --> 00:17:30,798 --> I heard the whole story for the second time. 127 00:17:30,924 --> 00:17:32,508 --> MOTKE ZAIDL 128 00:17:34,428 --> 00:17:38,556 --> BEN SHEMEN FOREST, ISRAEL 129 00:17:43,437 --> 00:17:46,481 --> (Motke speaks Hebrew) 130 00:17:59,453 --> 00:18:03,706 --> (Interpreter j&3 in French) The place resembles Ponary: the forest, the ditches. 131 00:18:03,832 --> 00:18:06,918 --> It's as if the bodies were burned here. 132 00:18:07,044 --> 00:18:09,962 --> Except there were no stones in Ponary. 133 00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:15,009 --> PONARY: FOREST WHERE MOST VILNA JEWS WERE MASSACRED 134 00:18:15,135 --> 00:18:20,181 --> (Lanzmann) But the Lithuanian forests are denser than the Israeli forest, no? 135 00:18:20,307 --> 00:18:24,227 --> (Interpreter j&3 speaks Hebrew) 136 00:18:24,353 --> 00:18:27,396 --> - (Motke replies) - Of course. 137 00:18:27,523 --> 00:18:30,942 --> (Motke continues) 138 00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:37,156 --> (Interpreter) The trees are similar, but taller and fuller in Lithuania. 139 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,578 --> FOREST OF THE EXTERMINATION CAMP AT SOBIBOR, POLAND 140 00:18:42,704 --> 00:18:46,290 --> (Lanzmann in French) Is there still hunting here in Sobibor forest? 141 00:18:46,416 --> 00:18:49,627 --> (Interpreter j& 1 speaks Polish) 142 00:18:49,753 --> 00:18:52,839 --> (Man replies in Polish) 143 00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:04,016 --> (Interpreter) Yes, there are lots of animals of all kinds. 144 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:10,606 --> (Lanzmann) Was there hunting then? 145 00:19:10,732 --> 00:19:13,693 --> (Man replies in Polish) 146 00:19:13,819 --> 00:19:17,071 --> (Interpreter) Only man hunting. 147 00:19:19,449 --> 00:19:20,992 --> JAN PIWONSKI 148 00:19:21,118 --> 00:19:23,202 --> (Speaks Polish) 149 00:19:38,468 --> 00:19:41,262 --> (Interpreter) Some victims tried to escape. 150 00:19:46,768 --> 00:19:49,520 --> But they didn't know the area. 151 00:19:54,193 --> 00:19:58,946 --> At times people heard explosions in the minefield. 152 00:19:59,072 --> 00:20:01,782 --> Sometimes they'd find a deer, 153 00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:05,411 --> and sometimes a poor Jew who tried to escape. 154 00:20:19,343 --> 00:20:22,053 --> (Piwonski continues) 155 00:20:28,852 --> 00:20:32,563 --> That's the charm of our forests: the silence and beauty. 156 00:20:41,823 --> 00:20:46,953 --> (Piwonski continues) 157 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:50,414 --> But it wasn't always so silent here. 158 00:21:00,634 --> 00:21:05,012 --> There was a time when it was full of screams 159 00:21:05,138 --> 00:21:06,639 --> and gunshots, 160 00:21:09,101 --> 00:21:10,601 --> of dogs' barking. 161 00:21:11,937 --> 00:21:14,230 --> (Piwonski continues) 162 00:21:22,614 --> 00:21:25,491 --> And that period especially 163 00:21:25,617 --> 00:21:28,286 --> is engraved on the minds of the people 164 00:21:28,412 --> 00:21:30,913 --> who lived here then. 165 00:21:35,252 --> 00:21:37,753 --> (Piwonski continues) 166 00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:47,888 --> After the revolt, the Germans decided to liquidate the camp, 167 00:21:48,015 --> 00:21:50,349 --> and early in the winter of 1943, 168 00:21:50,475 --> 00:21:54,395 --> they planted pines that were three or four years old 169 00:21:54,521 --> 00:21:56,647 --> to camouflage all the traces. 170 00:21:56,773 --> 00:21:58,190 --> That screen of trees? 171 00:21:58,317 --> 00:21:59,525 --> Yes. 172 00:21:59,651 --> 00:22:01,694 --> (Lanzmann) That's where the mass graves were? 173 00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:04,071 --> (Interpreter j& 1 speaks Polish) 174 00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:08,200 --> Yes. 175 00:22:08,327 --> 00:22:10,661 --> (Piwonski continues) 176 00:22:19,963 --> 00:22:23,132 --> When he first came here in 1944, 177 00:22:23,258 --> 00:22:27,094 --> you couldn't guess what had happened here, 178 00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:32,058 --> that these trees were hiding the secret of a death camp. 179 00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:39,815 --> (Lanzmann) How did he react, the first time he unloaded corpses, 180 00:22:39,941 --> 00:22:42,902 --> when the gas van doors were opened? 181 00:22:43,028 --> 00:22:45,613 --> (Interpreter j&2 speaks Yiddish) 182 00:22:56,541 --> 00:22:59,126 --> What could he do? He cried. 183 00:23:07,803 --> 00:23:10,930 --> The third day, he saw his wife and children. 184 00:23:31,952 --> 00:23:35,663 --> He placed his wife in the grave and asked to be killed. 185 00:23:35,789 --> 00:23:38,707 --> The Germans said he was strong enough to work, 186 00:23:38,834 --> 00:23:41,252 --> that he wouldn't be killed yet. 187 00:23:58,728 --> 00:24:00,813 --> (Lanzmann) Was the weather very cold? 188 00:24:02,357 --> 00:24:04,608 --> (Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish) 189 00:24:04,734 --> 00:24:07,319 --> (Podchlebnik replies) 190 00:24:09,948 --> 00:24:15,077 --> It was in the winter of 1942, in early January. 191 00:24:18,707 --> 00:24:22,751 --> (Lanzmann) At that time, the bodies weren't burned, just buried? 192 00:24:24,754 --> 00:24:26,881 --> (Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish) 193 00:24:29,968 --> 00:24:31,844 --> (Podchlebnik replies) 194 00:24:49,696 --> 00:24:53,908 --> No, they were buried, and each row was covered with dirt. 195 00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:56,035 --> They weren't being burned yet. 196 00:24:56,161 --> 00:24:58,412 --> There were around four or five layers. 197 00:24:58,538 --> 00:25:01,415 --> The ditches were funnel-shaped. 198 00:25:01,875 --> 00:25:04,168 --> (Podchlebnik continues) 199 00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:13,469 --> They dumped the bodies in these ditches, 200 00:25:13,595 --> 00:25:17,681 --> and they had to lay them out like herrings, head to foot. 201 00:25:28,193 --> 00:25:33,239 --> (Lanzmann) So it was they who dug up and burned all the Jews of Vilna? 202 00:25:33,907 --> 00:25:34,907 --> Yes. 203 00:25:34,908 --> 00:25:37,993 --> (Man speaks Hebrew) 204 00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:42,248 --> (Interpreter j&3 in French) In early January 1944, 205 00:25:42,374 --> 00:25:44,917 --> we began digging up the bodies. 206 00:25:46,127 --> 00:25:48,170 --> (Man continues) 207 00:25:55,762 --> 00:25:58,597 --> When the last mass grave was opened, 208 00:25:59,099 --> 00:26:01,350 --> I recognised my whole family. 209 00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:07,189 --> (Lanzmann in French) Whom in his family did he recognise? 210 00:26:07,315 --> 00:26:09,650 --> (Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew) 211 00:26:18,952 --> 00:26:22,121 --> Mum and my sisters. Three sisters with their kids. 212 00:26:22,247 --> 00:26:24,540 --> They were all in there. 213 00:26:25,041 --> 00:26:27,167 --> (Lanzmann) How could he recognise them? 214 00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:32,214 --> ITZHAK DUGIN: SURVIVOR OF VILNA 215 00:26:54,487 --> 00:26:57,281 --> They'd been in the earth 4 months, 216 00:26:57,407 --> 00:26:59,742 --> and it was winter. 217 00:26:59,868 --> 00:27:01,660 --> They were very well preserved. 218 00:27:01,786 --> 00:27:05,623 --> I recognised their faces, their clothes too. 219 00:27:06,791 --> 00:27:09,793 --> (Lanzmann) They'd been killed relatively recently? 220 00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:14,757 --> (Interpreter j&3 speaking Hebrew) 221 00:27:16,843 --> 00:27:18,385 --> Yes. 222 00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:22,056 --> (Lanzmann) And it was the last grave? 223 00:27:22,557 --> 00:27:25,100 --> (Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew) 224 00:27:25,226 --> 00:27:27,519 --> - (Dugin replies) - Yes. 225 00:27:29,064 --> 00:27:32,900 --> (Lanzmann) The Nazi plan was for them to open the graves 226 00:27:33,026 --> 00:27:34,985 --> starting with the oldest? 227 00:27:35,904 --> 00:27:38,447 --> (Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew) 228 00:27:48,291 --> 00:27:49,708 --> Yes. 229 00:28:20,031 --> 00:28:22,991 --> The last graves were the newest, 230 00:28:23,118 --> 00:28:27,788 --> and we started with the oldest, those of the first ghetto. 231 00:28:27,914 --> 00:28:30,916 --> In the first grave, there were 24,000 bodies. 232 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,882 --> (Motke speaks Hebrew) 233 00:28:43,346 --> 00:28:47,433 --> (Interpreter j&3) The deeper you dug, the flatter the bodies were. 234 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:50,436 --> Each was almost a flat slab. 235 00:28:50,562 --> 00:28:54,398 --> (Motke continues) 236 00:28:54,524 --> 00:28:58,235 --> When you tried to grasp a body, it crumbled, 237 00:28:58,361 --> 00:29:00,612 --> it was impossible to pick them up. 238 00:29:08,913 --> 00:29:13,333 --> We had to open the graves, but without tools. 239 00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:17,171 --> They said, "Get used to working with your hands." 240 00:29:17,297 --> 00:29:19,882 --> (Lanzmann) With just their hands? 241 00:29:20,633 --> 00:29:22,676 --> (Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew) 242 00:29:23,511 --> 00:29:24,511 --> Yes. 243 00:29:43,656 --> 00:29:45,866 --> When we first opened the graves, 244 00:29:45,992 --> 00:29:49,411 --> we couldn't help it, we all burst out sobbing. 245 00:29:49,537 --> 00:29:54,291 --> But the Germans almost beat us to death. 246 00:29:54,417 --> 00:29:58,170 --> We had to work at a killing pace for two days, 247 00:29:58,296 --> 00:30:01,048 --> beaten all the time, and with no tools. 248 00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:04,301 --> (Lanzmann) They all burst out sobbing? 249 00:30:04,427 --> 00:30:06,553 --> (Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew) 250 00:30:10,975 --> 00:30:12,976 --> (Motke continues) 251 00:30:27,617 --> 00:30:30,035 --> The Germans even forbade us 252 00:30:30,161 --> 00:30:33,705 --> to use the words "corpse" or "victim." 253 00:30:33,832 --> 00:30:37,501 --> The dead were blocks of wood, shit, 254 00:30:37,627 --> 00:30:40,671 --> with absolutely no importance... 255 00:30:42,882 --> 00:30:47,594 --> (Dugin speaks Hebrew) 256 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,348 --> Anyone who said "corpse" or "victim" was beaten. 257 00:30:52,517 --> 00:30:57,479 --> (Dugin continues) 258 00:30:57,605 --> 00:31:02,651 --> The Germans made us refer to the bodies as "Figuren," 259 00:31:02,777 --> 00:31:05,612 --> that is, as puppets, as dolls... 260 00:31:06,322 --> 00:31:08,991 --> - Schmattes. - As "Schmattes," which means "rags." 261 00:31:11,744 --> 00:31:13,745 --> (Lanzmann) Were they told at the start 262 00:31:13,872 --> 00:31:16,957 --> how many "Figuren" there were in all the graves? 263 00:31:17,083 --> 00:31:20,878 --> (Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew) 264 00:31:21,004 --> 00:31:23,255 --> (Motke replies) 265 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,559 --> The head of the Vilna Gestapo told us, 266 00:31:35,685 --> 00:31:39,271 --> "There are 90,000 people lying there, 267 00:31:39,397 --> 00:31:42,441 --> and absolutely no trace must be left of them." 268 00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:53,368 --> (In German) It was at the end of November 1942. 269 00:31:55,371 --> 00:32:00,208 --> They chased us away from our work 270 00:32:01,711 --> 00:32:04,463 --> and back to our barracks. 271 00:32:04,589 --> 00:32:06,506 --> Suddenly, 272 00:32:07,592 --> 00:32:15,015 --> from the part of the camp called 273 00:32:16,142 --> 00:32:20,771 --> the death camp, 274 00:32:22,899 --> 00:32:25,067 --> flames shot up very high. 275 00:32:27,195 --> 00:32:32,950 --> In a flash, the whole countryside, 276 00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,912 --> the whole camp seemed ablaze. 277 00:32:39,666 --> 00:32:41,583 --> It was already dark. 278 00:32:44,837 --> 00:32:48,840 --> We went into our barracks 279 00:32:50,593 --> 00:32:52,678 --> and ate... 280 00:32:53,179 --> 00:32:58,183 --> And from the window, 281 00:32:58,309 --> 00:33:04,106 --> we kept on watching the fantastic backdrop of flames 282 00:33:04,232 --> 00:33:06,733 --> of every imaginable colour, 283 00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:11,697 --> red, yellow, green, purple. 284 00:33:11,823 --> 00:33:19,823 --> And suddenly one of us stood up. 285 00:33:20,873 --> 00:33:27,087 --> We knew he'd been an opera singer in Warsaw. 286 00:33:29,048 --> 00:33:33,260 --> His name was Salve, and... 287 00:33:33,386 --> 00:33:35,554 --> - (Lanzmann) Salve? - Salve. 288 00:33:37,932 --> 00:33:41,852 --> Facing that curtain of fire, 289 00:33:41,978 --> 00:33:46,189 --> he began chanting a song 290 00:33:46,315 --> 00:33:49,818 --> I didn't know: 291 00:33:50,695 --> 00:33:52,487 --> "My God, my God, 292 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,034 --> why hast Thou forsaken us?" 293 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,246 --> RICHARD GLAZAR - BASEL, SWITZERLAND 294 00:34:03,291 --> 00:34:08,170 --> "We have been thrust into the fire before, 295 00:34:08,296 --> 00:34:13,800 --> but we have never denied Thy Holy Law." 296 00:34:15,553 --> 00:34:19,139 --> He sang in Yiddish, 297 00:34:19,265 --> 00:34:21,600 --> while, behind him, 298 00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:26,772 --> blazed the pyres 299 00:34:27,482 --> 00:34:33,820 --> on which they had begun then, in November 1942, 300 00:34:33,946 --> 00:34:37,074 --> to burn the bodies in Treblinka. 301 00:34:38,785 --> 00:34:43,789 --> That was the first time it happened. 302 00:34:45,374 --> 00:34:47,292 --> We knew that night 303 00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:51,630 --> that the dead would no longer be buried, 304 00:34:53,132 --> 00:34:55,133 --> they'd be burned. 305 00:34:55,635 --> 00:34:58,303 --> TREBLINKA 306 00:35:24,705 --> 00:35:29,417 --> (Interpreter) When things were ready, they poured on fuel 307 00:35:29,544 --> 00:35:31,586 --> and touched off the fire. 308 00:35:31,712 --> 00:35:34,047 --> They waited for a high wind. 309 00:35:34,173 --> 00:35:38,093 --> The pyres usually burned for 7 or 8 days. 310 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,771 --> (Srebnik) There was a concrete platform some distance away, 311 00:35:50,982 --> 00:35:53,984 --> and the bones that hadn't burned, 312 00:35:54,110 --> 00:35:56,736 --> the big bones of the feet, for example, 313 00:35:56,863 --> 00:35:59,281 --> we took... 314 00:36:00,449 --> 00:36:03,952 --> There was a chest with two handles. 315 00:36:04,078 --> 00:36:07,080 --> We carried the bones there, 316 00:36:07,206 --> 00:36:13,378 --> where others had to crush them. 317 00:36:13,504 --> 00:36:16,256 --> It was very fine, 318 00:36:17,508 --> 00:36:20,302 --> that powdered bone. 319 00:36:20,428 --> 00:36:23,680 --> Then it was put into sacks, 320 00:36:24,515 --> 00:36:28,685 --> and when there were enough sacks, 321 00:36:28,811 --> 00:36:33,773 --> we went to a bridge on the Narew river 322 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,401 --> and dumped the powder. 323 00:36:36,527 --> 00:36:38,320 --> The current carried it off. 324 00:36:40,740 --> 00:36:43,200 --> It drifted downstream. 325 00:36:50,917 --> 00:36:54,628 --> (j&Srebnik sings in Polish: "Little White House") 326 00:37:17,485 --> 00:37:20,570 --> (Lanzmann in English) You never returned to Poland since? 327 00:37:20,696 --> 00:37:22,405 --> (Woman) No. 328 00:37:22,531 --> 00:37:24,991 --> I wanted many times. 329 00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:29,412 --> But what will I see? 330 00:37:32,375 --> 00:37:34,668 --> How can I face it? 331 00:37:39,423 --> 00:37:42,759 --> My grandparents are buried in Lodz. 332 00:37:42,885 --> 00:37:47,013 --> And, at one point, I heard from somebody that visited Poland 333 00:37:47,139 --> 00:37:50,850 --> that they want to level off the cemetery, 334 00:37:50,977 --> 00:37:53,019 --> do away with the cemetery. 335 00:37:53,145 --> 00:37:56,189 --> Now how can I return to that, to visit? 336 00:37:58,401 --> 00:38:00,986 --> (Lanzmann) When did they die, your grandparents? 337 00:38:01,862 --> 00:38:04,155 --> - My grandparents? - Mm-hmm. 338 00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,783 --> My grandparents died in the ghetto, quickly. 339 00:38:06,909 --> 00:38:09,619 --> They were elderly, and within a couple years... 340 00:38:09,745 --> 00:38:13,373 --> Within a year, my grandfather died. And my grandmother the next year. 341 00:38:13,499 --> 00:38:15,083 --> In the ghetto, yes. 342 00:38:17,128 --> 00:38:21,214 --> PAULA BIREN - CINCINNATI, USA SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ 343 00:38:28,306 --> 00:38:32,100 --> THE JEWISH CEMETERY IN LODZ TODAY 344 00:38:35,271 --> 00:38:37,564 --> (Crows cawing) 345 00:39:03,299 --> 00:39:04,966 --> (Church bells ringing) 346 00:39:05,092 --> 00:39:07,427 --> AUSCHWITZ: THE TOWN 347 00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:12,182 --> (Lanzmann in French) Mrs. Pietyra, you live in Auschwitz? 348 00:39:12,308 --> 00:39:14,726 --> (Interpreter j& 1 and Pietyra speak in Polish) 349 00:39:14,852 --> 00:39:16,978 --> (Interpreter in French) Yes, I was born here. 350 00:39:17,104 --> 00:39:19,064 --> (Lanzmann) And you've never left Auschwitz? 351 00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:21,274 --> (Speaking Polish) 352 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,984 --> No, never. 353 00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:25,945 --> (Lanzmann) Were there Jews in Auschwitz before the war? 354 00:39:31,744 --> 00:39:34,329 --> (Interpreter) They made up 80% of the population. 355 00:39:37,166 --> 00:39:38,500 --> (Speaking Polish) 356 00:39:38,626 --> 00:39:41,086 --> They even had a synagogue here. 357 00:39:41,212 --> 00:39:42,962 --> (Lanzmann) Just one? 358 00:39:44,924 --> 00:39:47,092 --> - Just one, I think. - (Lanzmann) Does it still exist? 359 00:39:51,931 --> 00:39:53,848 --> No, it was wrecked. 360 00:39:53,974 --> 00:39:56,393 --> There's something else there now. 361 00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,770 --> (Lanzmann) Was there a Jewish cemetery in Auschwitz? 362 00:39:58,896 --> 00:40:01,523 --> (Interpreter j& 1 speaking Polish) 363 00:40:05,361 --> 00:40:08,905 --> It still exists. It's closed now. 364 00:40:09,031 --> 00:40:11,616 --> - It still exists? - Yes. 365 00:40:15,704 --> 00:40:17,789 --> (Lanzmann) Closed? What does that mean? 366 00:40:21,335 --> 00:40:23,837 --> They don't bury there now. 367 00:40:25,381 --> 00:40:28,258 --> (j&Congregation sings Polish hymn) 368 00:40:44,024 --> 00:40:46,234 --> (Lanzmann in French) Was there a synagogue in Wlodawa? 369 00:40:47,319 --> 00:40:49,195 --> (Speaking Polish) 370 00:40:49,321 --> 00:40:51,906 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in French) Yes, and it's very beautiful. 371 00:40:52,032 --> 00:40:56,911 --> (Speaking Polish) 372 00:40:57,037 --> 00:40:59,998 --> When Poland was ruled by the czars, 373 00:41:00,124 --> 00:41:02,709 --> that synagogue already existed. 374 00:41:05,379 --> 00:41:09,007 --> It's even older than the Catholic church. 375 00:41:09,133 --> 00:41:13,428 --> (Continues in Polish) 376 00:41:38,078 --> 00:41:40,872 --> It's no longer used. 377 00:41:40,998 --> 00:41:43,416 --> (Man continues) 378 00:41:43,542 --> 00:41:45,502 --> There's no one to go to it. 379 00:41:52,885 --> 00:41:55,553 --> (Lanzmann in French) These buildings haven't changed? 380 00:41:55,679 --> 00:41:57,680 --> (Speaking Polish) 381 00:42:01,727 --> 00:42:05,230 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in French) Not at all. There were barrels of herrings here, 382 00:42:05,356 --> 00:42:07,357 --> and the Jews sold fish. 383 00:42:08,943 --> 00:42:11,778 --> There were stalls, small shops, 384 00:42:11,904 --> 00:42:14,864 --> Jewish business, as the gentleman says. 385 00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:20,537 --> - (Man continues) - That's Barenholz's house. 386 00:42:20,663 --> 00:42:23,331 --> - (Man continues) - He sold wood. 387 00:42:23,457 --> 00:42:25,416 --> (Man continues) 388 00:42:29,797 --> 00:42:32,173 --> Lipschitz's store was there. He sold cloth. 389 00:42:32,299 --> 00:42:34,217 --> (Lanzmann) This was Lichtenstein's. 390 00:42:34,343 --> 00:42:35,802 --> (Interpreter j& 1) Lichtenstein, yes. 391 00:42:35,928 --> 00:42:38,346 --> (Lanzmann) What was there, opposite? 392 00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:42,684 --> A food store. 393 00:42:42,810 --> 00:42:45,270 --> (Lanzmann) A Jewish store? 394 00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:46,896 --> (Interpreter j& 1) Yes. 395 00:42:48,774 --> 00:42:51,025 --> There was a notions shop here, 396 00:42:51,151 --> 00:42:54,821 --> it sold thread, needles, odds and ends, 397 00:42:58,158 --> 00:43:00,660 --> and there were also three barbers. 398 00:43:01,829 --> 00:43:04,289 --> PAN FILIPOWICZ 399 00:43:05,207 --> 00:43:08,087 --> - (Lanzmann) Was that fine house Jewish? - (Interpreter j& 1) It's Jewish. 400 00:43:08,711 --> 00:43:11,671 --> - And this small one? - Also. 401 00:43:11,797 --> 00:43:15,925 --> - And the one behind it? - These were all Jewish. 402 00:43:16,051 --> 00:43:21,055 --> - This one on the left, too? - That one too. 403 00:43:22,349 --> 00:43:25,977 --> (Lanzmann) Who lived in it? Borenstein? (Filipowicz) Borenstein. 404 00:43:26,103 --> 00:43:30,607 --> - (Filipowicz continues) - He was in the cement business. 405 00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:33,276 --> He was very handsome, and cultivated. 406 00:43:34,903 --> 00:43:37,071 --> (Filipowicz continues) 407 00:43:37,197 --> 00:43:40,325 --> Here there was a blacksmith named Tepper. 408 00:43:40,451 --> 00:43:42,577 --> It was a Jewish house. 409 00:43:43,704 --> 00:43:45,538 --> A shoemaker lived here. 410 00:43:45,664 --> 00:43:49,626 --> (Lanzmann) What was his name? (Filipowicz) Yankel. 411 00:43:51,629 --> 00:43:54,547 --> (Lanzmann) You get the feeling Wlodawa was a Jewish city. 412 00:43:54,673 --> 00:43:57,925 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 413 00:43:58,052 --> 00:44:00,428 --> - (Filipowicz replies) - Yes, because it's true. 414 00:44:00,554 --> 00:44:02,013 --> (Filipowicz continues) 415 00:44:02,139 --> 00:44:06,142 --> The Poles lived farther out, the centre was wholly Jewish. 416 00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:10,480 --> (Lanzmann in French) What happened to the Jews of Auschwitz? 417 00:44:10,606 --> 00:44:16,486 --> (Interpreter j& 1 and Pietyra speak Polish) 418 00:44:16,612 --> 00:44:19,697 --> They were expelled and resettled, 419 00:44:19,823 --> 00:44:21,866 --> but I don't know where. 420 00:44:21,992 --> 00:44:23,951 --> (Lanzmann) What year was that? 421 00:44:24,078 --> 00:44:27,246 --> (Pietyra replies) 422 00:44:27,373 --> 00:44:32,585 --> It began in 1940, which was when I moved here. 423 00:44:32,711 --> 00:44:35,171 --> This apartment also belonged to Jews. 424 00:44:36,006 --> 00:44:39,592 --> (Lanzmann) According to our information, 425 00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:44,097 --> the Auschwitz Jews were "resettled," as they say, 426 00:44:44,223 --> 00:44:48,643 --> nearby, in Benzin and Sosnowiec, in Upper Silesia. 427 00:44:51,105 --> 00:44:53,731 --> (Interpreter j& 1) Yes, because those were Jewish towns. 428 00:44:53,857 --> 00:44:58,361 --> (Lanzmann) Does she know what happened to the Jews of Auschwitz? 429 00:44:58,487 --> 00:45:01,739 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 430 00:45:04,201 --> 00:45:07,161 --> I think they all ended up in the camp. 431 00:45:07,287 --> 00:45:10,289 --> (Lanzmann) That is, they returned to Auschwitz? 432 00:45:11,083 --> 00:45:12,208 --> Yes. 433 00:45:14,586 --> 00:45:18,631 --> AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU 434 00:45:26,140 --> 00:45:28,141 --> (Pietyra continues) 435 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,858 --> All kinds of people from everywhere were sent here. 436 00:45:37,609 --> 00:45:40,820 --> All the Jews came here... to die. 437 00:45:49,204 --> 00:45:50,955 --> (Lanzmann) What did they think 438 00:45:51,081 --> 00:45:53,708 --> when Wlodawa's Jews were all deported to Sobibor? 439 00:45:53,834 --> 00:45:56,169 --> (Speaking Polish) 440 00:45:56,712 --> 00:46:00,798 --> WLODAWA - SOBIBOR: 10 MILES 441 00:46:07,723 --> 00:46:09,932 --> (In French) What could we think? 442 00:46:10,058 --> 00:46:15,897 --> That it was the end of them, but they had foreseen that. 443 00:46:16,023 --> 00:46:17,690 --> (Lanzmann) How so? 444 00:46:17,816 --> 00:46:19,400 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 445 00:46:34,082 --> 00:46:37,210 --> Even before the war, when you talked to the Jews, 446 00:46:37,336 --> 00:46:39,128 --> they foresaw their doom. 447 00:46:39,254 --> 00:46:40,671 --> He doesn't know how. 448 00:46:40,798 --> 00:46:43,633 --> Even before the war, they had a premonition. 449 00:46:53,936 --> 00:46:56,479 --> (Lanzmann) How were they taken to Sobibor? On foot? 450 00:46:56,939 --> 00:46:58,856 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 451 00:46:58,982 --> 00:47:02,902 --> (Filipowicz replies) 452 00:47:03,028 --> 00:47:06,447 --> It was frightful. He watched it himself. 453 00:47:06,573 --> 00:47:09,534 --> (Filipowicz continues) 454 00:47:09,660 --> 00:47:13,913 --> They were herded on foot to a station called Orkrobek. 455 00:47:14,039 --> 00:47:16,916 --> (Train clacking) 456 00:47:17,626 --> 00:47:22,880 --> (Filipowicz continues) 457 00:47:23,006 --> 00:47:29,095 --> There, they put the old people first into waiting cattle cars... 458 00:47:32,224 --> 00:47:34,392 --> ...then the younger Jews... 459 00:47:38,063 --> 00:47:40,273 --> ...and finally the kids. 460 00:47:40,399 --> 00:47:45,111 --> That was the worst: They threw them on top of the others. 461 00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:24,650 --> (Lanzmann) Were there a lot of Jews in Kolo? 462 00:48:24,776 --> 00:48:26,694 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 463 00:48:26,820 --> 00:48:29,071 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in French) A great many. 464 00:48:29,197 --> 00:48:32,825 --> - (Man continues) - More Jews than Poles. 465 00:48:33,827 --> 00:48:36,787 --> (Lanzmann) And what happened to the Kolo Jews? 466 00:48:36,914 --> 00:48:38,873 --> Was he an eyewitness? 467 00:48:39,458 --> 00:48:41,375 --> PAN FALBORSKI 468 00:48:41,501 --> 00:48:43,502 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 469 00:48:43,629 --> 00:48:46,756 --> Yes. It was frightful. 470 00:49:03,357 --> 00:49:04,482 --> Frightful to see. 471 00:49:04,608 --> 00:49:07,443 --> Even the Germans hid, they couldn't see that. 472 00:49:07,569 --> 00:49:11,948 --> When the Jews were herded to the station, they were beaten, 473 00:49:12,074 --> 00:49:13,491 --> some were even killed. 474 00:49:13,617 --> 00:49:19,455 --> A cart followed the convoy to pick up the corpses. 475 00:49:19,581 --> 00:49:22,291 --> (Lanzmann) Those who couldn't walk, the slain? 476 00:49:22,417 --> 00:49:24,251 --> Yes, those who'd fallen. 477 00:49:24,378 --> 00:49:26,587 --> Where did this happen? 478 00:49:28,507 --> 00:49:30,466 --> (Speaks Polish) 479 00:49:46,525 --> 00:49:51,070 --> The Jews were collected in the Kolo synagogue. 480 00:49:51,196 --> 00:49:54,407 --> Then they were herded to the station, 481 00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:58,577 --> where the narrow-gauge railway went to Chelmno. 482 00:50:07,045 --> 00:50:11,090 --> (Lanzmann) It happened to all the Jews in the area, not just in Kolo? 483 00:50:12,092 --> 00:50:14,051 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 484 00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:18,472 --> (Falborski replies) 485 00:50:18,598 --> 00:50:20,099 --> Absolutely. 486 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,519 --> - Everywhere. - (Falborski continues) 487 00:50:27,065 --> 00:50:29,650 --> Jews were also murdered in the forests 488 00:50:29,776 --> 00:50:32,278 --> near Kalisz, not far from here. 489 00:50:44,583 --> 00:50:47,001 --> (Locomotive chugging) 490 00:50:49,379 --> 00:50:52,173 --> (Train whistle blows) 491 00:52:52,586 --> 00:52:54,712 --> (Man in English) There was a sign. 492 00:52:54,838 --> 00:52:59,717 --> There was a small sign on the station of Treblinka. 493 00:53:00,218 --> 00:53:04,972 --> I don't know if we were at the station or if we did not go up to the station. 494 00:53:05,098 --> 00:53:07,683 --> ABRAHAM BOMBA - TEL AVIV, ISRAEL SURVIVOR OF TREBLINKA 495 00:53:07,809 --> 00:53:10,477 --> On the line over there where we stayed, 496 00:53:10,604 --> 00:53:14,690 --> there was a small sign, very small sign, which say "Treblinka." 497 00:53:14,816 --> 00:53:19,737 --> That was the first time in my life I heard about that name "Treblinka," 498 00:53:19,863 --> 00:53:22,406 --> because nobody know. 499 00:53:22,908 --> 00:53:26,577 --> It is not a place. There is not a city. 500 00:53:26,703 --> 00:53:29,622 --> Or it is not even a small village. 501 00:53:32,083 --> 00:53:36,128 --> TREBLINKA BY ROAD 502 00:53:38,423 --> 00:53:41,800 --> Jewish people always dreamed, 503 00:53:41,927 --> 00:53:44,178 --> and that was part of their life. 504 00:53:44,304 --> 00:53:46,347 --> It was part of their messiah, 505 00:53:46,473 --> 00:53:51,727 --> to dream that someday they're going to be free. 506 00:53:52,979 --> 00:53:57,524 --> That dream was mostly true in the ghetto. 507 00:53:58,985 --> 00:54:01,612 --> Every day, every single night, 508 00:54:01,738 --> 00:54:04,865 --> I dreamed about a thing that's going to be good. 509 00:54:06,701 --> 00:54:08,118 --> Not only the dream, 510 00:54:08,245 --> 00:54:12,498 --> but the hope conserved in a dream. 511 00:54:19,881 --> 00:54:23,884 --> The first transport from Czestochowa 512 00:54:24,010 --> 00:54:27,388 --> was sent away at the day of the Yom Kippur. 513 00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:33,227 --> The day before Sukkoth, there was the second transport. 514 00:54:33,353 --> 00:54:35,646 --> I was together with them. 515 00:54:37,983 --> 00:54:42,778 --> I know, only in my heart I know, that there's something that is not good, 516 00:54:42,904 --> 00:54:44,863 --> because, if they take children, 517 00:54:44,990 --> 00:54:47,533 --> if they take old people and they send them away, 518 00:54:47,659 --> 00:54:50,077 --> that means it is not good. 519 00:54:50,203 --> 00:54:55,082 --> What they said is they'd take them away to a place where they would be working. 520 00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:57,584 --> But, on the other hand, 521 00:54:57,711 --> 00:55:01,880 --> an old woman or a little child from a week or four weeks or five years, 522 00:55:02,007 --> 00:55:04,049 --> what is he going to work? 523 00:55:05,302 --> 00:55:08,637 --> That was a foolish thing, but, still, we had no choice. 524 00:55:08,763 --> 00:55:10,639 --> We believed in that. 525 00:55:32,037 --> 00:55:34,788 --> (Man speaks Polish) (Interpreter) He was born here... 526 00:55:34,914 --> 00:55:37,374 --> in 1923... 527 00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:40,502 --> and has been here ever since. 528 00:55:42,422 --> 00:55:44,840 --> (Lanzmann in French) He lived at this very spot? 529 00:55:44,966 --> 00:55:46,550 --> (Interpreter) Right here. 530 00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:49,720 --> (Lanzmann) Then he had a front-row seat for what happened. 531 00:55:49,846 --> 00:55:54,058 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 532 00:55:54,184 --> 00:55:56,894 --> - (Man replies) - Naturally. 533 00:55:57,020 --> 00:56:00,230 --> (Man continues) 534 00:56:00,357 --> 00:56:05,069 --> You could go up close or watch from a distance. 535 00:56:06,029 --> 00:56:09,073 --> CZESLAW BOROWI 536 00:56:12,952 --> 00:56:15,913 --> They had land on the far side of the station. 537 00:56:16,039 --> 00:56:19,416 --> To work it, he had to cross the track, 538 00:56:19,542 --> 00:56:21,543 --> so he could see everything. 539 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,595 --> (Lanzmann) Does he remember the first convoy of Jews from Warsaw 540 00:56:31,721 --> 00:56:34,598 --> on July 22, 1942? 541 00:56:34,724 --> 00:56:36,141 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 542 00:56:36,267 --> 00:56:39,603 --> (Borowi speaks in Polish) 543 00:56:42,899 --> 00:56:45,109 --> He recalls the first convoy very well... 544 00:56:46,945 --> 00:56:49,696 --> ...and when all those Jews were brought here. 545 00:56:54,411 --> 00:56:57,871 --> People wondered, "What's to be done with them?" 546 00:57:01,042 --> 00:57:05,129 --> Clearly, they'd be killed, but no one yet knew how. 547 00:57:17,183 --> 00:57:21,645 --> When people began to understand what was happening, 548 00:57:22,188 --> 00:57:23,647 --> they were appalled, 549 00:57:23,773 --> 00:57:28,902 --> and they commented privately that since the world began, 550 00:57:29,028 --> 00:57:32,656 --> no one had ever murdered so many people that way. 551 00:57:38,163 --> 00:57:41,331 --> (Lanzmann) While all this was happening before their eyes, 552 00:57:41,458 --> 00:57:43,167 --> normal life went on? 553 00:57:43,293 --> 00:57:48,589 --> - They worked their fields? - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 554 00:57:48,715 --> 00:57:52,259 --> (Borowi replies) 555 00:58:08,443 --> 00:58:10,194 --> Certainly they worked, 556 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:15,073 --> but not as willingly as usual. 557 00:58:15,742 --> 00:58:17,618 --> They had to work, 558 00:58:17,744 --> 00:58:20,287 --> but when they saw all this, they thought, 559 00:58:20,413 --> 00:58:23,874 --> "What if our house is surrounded and we're arrested?" 560 00:58:26,628 --> 00:58:28,962 --> (Lanzmann) Were they afraid for the Jews, too? 561 00:59:00,995 --> 00:59:02,871 --> Well, he says it's this way... 562 00:59:02,997 --> 00:59:07,584 --> If I cut my finger, it doesn't hurt him. 563 00:59:07,710 --> 00:59:10,003 --> They saw what happened to the Jews, 564 00:59:10,129 --> 00:59:14,758 --> the convoy came in and then went to the camp, 565 00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:17,678 --> and the people vanished. 566 00:59:17,804 --> 00:59:19,680 --> (Speak Polish) 567 00:59:19,806 --> 00:59:24,101 --> (Interpreter j& 1) He had a field less than 100 yards from the camp. 568 00:59:26,729 --> 00:59:29,481 --> He also worked during the German occupation. 569 00:59:29,607 --> 00:59:32,025 --> (Lanzmann) He worked his field? (Interpreter j& 1) Yes. 570 00:59:32,694 --> 00:59:37,197 --> He saw how they were asphyxiated, 571 00:59:37,323 --> 00:59:40,617 --> he heard them scream, he saw that. 572 00:59:40,743 --> 00:59:45,289 --> There's a small hill. He could see quite a bit. 573 00:59:47,125 --> 00:59:49,585 --> - (Laughter) - (Lanzmann) What did he say? 574 00:59:49,711 --> 00:59:51,461 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 575 00:59:53,339 --> 00:59:56,049 --> They couldn't stop and watch. 576 00:59:56,551 --> 00:59:59,511 --> It was forbidden. The Ukrainians shot at them. 577 00:59:59,637 --> 01:00:03,765 --> (Lanzmann) But they could work a field 100 yards from the camp? 578 01:00:05,643 --> 01:00:08,770 --> They could. 579 01:00:08,896 --> 01:00:12,065 --> So occasionally he could steal a glance, 580 01:00:12,191 --> 01:00:14,401 --> if the Ukrainians weren't looking. 581 01:00:14,527 --> 01:00:16,987 --> (Lanzmann) He worked with his eyes lowered? 582 01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:21,408 --> Yes. 583 01:00:21,909 --> 01:00:23,910 --> (Speaks Polish) 584 01:00:26,372 --> 01:00:30,208 --> He worked by the barbed wire and heard awful screams. 585 01:00:30,335 --> 01:00:33,253 --> (Lanzmann) His field was there? 586 01:00:34,213 --> 01:00:36,089 --> (Interpreter) Yes, right up close. 587 01:00:37,258 --> 01:00:39,676 --> It wasn't forbidden to work there. 588 01:00:40,637 --> 01:00:44,181 --> (Lanzmann) So he worked, he farmed there? 589 01:00:47,727 --> 01:00:48,977 --> (Interpreter) Yes. 590 01:00:49,937 --> 01:00:53,899 --> Where the camp is now was partly his field. 591 01:00:56,944 --> 01:00:59,446 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 592 01:01:06,287 --> 01:01:09,164 --> It was off limits, but they heard everything. 593 01:01:09,290 --> 01:01:12,751 --> (Lanzmann) It didn't bother him to work so near those screams? 594 01:01:12,877 --> 01:01:17,047 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 595 01:01:21,678 --> 01:01:25,222 --> At first it was unbearable. Then you got used to it. 596 01:01:25,682 --> 01:01:29,184 --> (Lanzmann) You get used to anything? 597 01:01:30,853 --> 01:01:31,937 --> Yes. 598 01:01:35,358 --> 01:01:39,027 --> Now he thinks... it's impossible. 599 01:01:39,153 --> 01:01:40,821 --> Yet it was true. 600 01:02:06,222 --> 01:02:09,057 --> (Speaking in Polish) 601 01:02:09,726 --> 01:02:12,561 --> So he saw the convoys arriving. 602 01:02:13,062 --> 01:02:17,441 --> There were 60 to 80 cars in each convoy, 603 01:02:17,567 --> 01:02:20,360 --> and there were two locomotives 604 01:02:20,486 --> 01:02:24,281 --> that took the convoys into the camp, 605 01:02:24,407 --> 01:02:28,368 --> taking 20 cars at a time. 606 01:02:29,245 --> 01:02:31,705 --> And the cars came back empty? 607 01:02:31,831 --> 01:02:33,999 --> (Speaking Polish) 608 01:02:35,168 --> 01:02:37,043 --> - Yes. - Does he remember...? 609 01:02:41,799 --> 01:02:43,508 --> Here's how it happened. 610 01:02:43,634 --> 01:02:46,136 --> The locomotive picked up 20 cars 611 01:02:47,847 --> 01:02:50,015 --> and took them to the camp. 612 01:02:50,141 --> 01:02:53,643 --> That took maybe an hour, 613 01:02:59,567 --> 01:03:01,610 --> and the empty cars came back here. 614 01:03:01,736 --> 01:03:03,820 --> Then the next 20 cars were taken, 615 01:03:03,946 --> 01:03:08,492 --> and meanwhile, the people in the first 20 were already dead. 616 01:03:20,379 --> 01:03:22,047 --> (Man speaks Polish) 617 01:03:22,173 --> 01:03:24,090 --> (Interpreter j& 1) They waited, they wept... 618 01:03:24,217 --> 01:03:28,220 --> ...they asked for water, they died. 619 01:03:30,264 --> 01:03:36,353 --> Sometimes they were naked in the cars, up to 170 people. 620 01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:41,274 --> (Interpreter) This is where they gave the Jews water, he says. 621 01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:42,859 --> (Lanzmann) Where was that? 622 01:03:42,985 --> 01:03:44,778 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 623 01:03:44,904 --> 01:03:49,616 --> Here. When the convoys arrived, they gave water to the Jews. 624 01:03:49,742 --> 01:03:52,327 --> (Lanzmann) Who gave the Jews water? 625 01:03:53,746 --> 01:03:55,789 --> We did, the Poles. 626 01:03:56,833 --> 01:04:00,961 --> There was a tiny well, we took a bottle and... 627 01:04:01,087 --> 01:04:05,131 --> (Lanzmann) Wasn't it dangerous to give them water? 628 01:04:05,758 --> 01:04:07,384 --> Very dangerous. 629 01:04:12,014 --> 01:04:17,143 --> You could be killed for giving a glass of water. 630 01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:20,230 --> But we gave them water anyway. 631 01:04:24,694 --> 01:04:27,279 --> (Lanzmann) Is it very cold here in winter? 632 01:04:27,405 --> 01:04:30,198 --> (Interpreter j& 1 and man speak Polish) 633 01:04:30,324 --> 01:04:34,286 --> It depends. 634 01:04:34,412 --> 01:04:36,913 --> It can get to minus 15, minus 20. 635 01:04:40,167 --> 01:04:43,545 --> (Lanzmann) Which was harder on the Jews, summer or winter? 636 01:04:43,671 --> 01:04:49,009 --> - Waiting here, I mean. - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 637 01:04:49,677 --> 01:04:51,595 --> (Man replies) 638 01:04:55,016 --> 01:04:57,225 --> He thinks winter, because they were very cold. 639 01:04:57,351 --> 01:04:59,185 --> (Man continues) 640 01:05:02,607 --> 01:05:07,319 --> They were so packed in the cars, maybe they weren't cold. 641 01:05:09,780 --> 01:05:13,033 --> In summer they stifled, it was very hot. 642 01:05:14,035 --> 01:05:17,037 --> The Jews were very thirsty. They tried to get out. 643 01:05:21,584 --> 01:05:24,461 --> (Lanzmann) Were there corpses in the cars on arrival? 644 01:05:24,587 --> 01:05:26,588 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 645 01:05:31,844 --> 01:05:33,345 --> Obviously. 646 01:05:34,096 --> 01:05:35,597 --> Yes. 647 01:05:46,442 --> 01:05:48,485 --> They were so packed in 648 01:05:48,611 --> 01:05:53,114 --> that even those still alive sat on corpses for lack of space. 649 01:05:56,118 --> 01:05:59,287 --> (Lanzmann) Didn't people here who went by the trains 650 01:05:59,413 --> 01:06:02,415 --> look through the cracks in the cars? 651 01:06:02,541 --> 01:06:04,542 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 652 01:06:11,509 --> 01:06:15,011 --> Yes, they could look in sometimes as they went by. 653 01:06:18,808 --> 01:06:22,394 --> When they were allowed, they gave them water, too. 654 01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,355 --> (Lanzmann) Yes. How did the Jews try to get out? 655 01:06:25,481 --> 01:06:27,899 --> The doors weren't opened. How'd they get out? 656 01:06:28,025 --> 01:06:30,026 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 657 01:06:32,238 --> 01:06:34,739 --> Through the windows. 658 01:06:36,993 --> 01:06:39,661 --> They removed the barbed wire. Yes. 659 01:06:40,705 --> 01:06:44,124 --> And came out of the windows. They jumped, of course. 660 01:06:49,755 --> 01:06:54,467 --> Sometimes they just deliberately sat down on the ground, 661 01:06:54,969 --> 01:06:59,597 --> and the guards came and shot them in the head. 662 01:07:00,766 --> 01:07:02,475 --> (Speaking Polish) 663 01:07:10,276 --> 01:07:14,279 --> They jumped from the cars. What a sight! 664 01:07:15,322 --> 01:07:17,115 --> Jumping from the windows. 665 01:07:19,118 --> 01:07:22,037 --> There was a mother and child. 666 01:07:22,163 --> 01:07:24,330 --> - (Lanzmann) Jewish? - Yes. 667 01:07:24,457 --> 01:07:26,207 --> She tried to run away, 668 01:07:26,667 --> 01:07:30,211 --> and they shot her in the heart. 669 01:07:33,799 --> 01:07:36,509 --> - Shot who? The mother? - Yes, the mother. 670 01:07:38,971 --> 01:07:43,516 --> This gentleman has lived here a long time, he can't forget. 671 01:07:54,695 --> 01:07:57,864 --> He says that now he can't understand 672 01:07:57,990 --> 01:08:02,535 --> how a man can do that to another human being. 673 01:08:03,370 --> 01:08:05,580 --> It's inconceivable, beyond understanding. 674 01:08:08,084 --> 01:08:11,419 --> Once when the Jews asked for water, a Ukrainian went by 675 01:08:12,421 --> 01:08:14,422 --> and forbade giving any. 676 01:08:17,343 --> 01:08:20,637 --> The Jewish woman that had asked for water 677 01:08:20,763 --> 01:08:25,517 --> threw her pot at his head. 678 01:08:35,069 --> 01:08:39,197 --> The Ukrainian moved back, 679 01:08:39,990 --> 01:08:44,577 --> maybe ten yards, and opened fire on the car. 680 01:08:45,788 --> 01:08:48,665 --> Blood and brains were all over the place. 681 01:08:48,791 --> 01:08:51,960 --> (Borowi speaks Polish) 682 01:08:52,086 --> 01:08:54,546 --> (Interpreter j& 1) Lots of people opened the doors... 683 01:08:57,508 --> 01:08:59,717 --> ...or escaped through the windows. 684 01:09:02,972 --> 01:09:08,601 --> Sometimes the Ukrainians fired through the car walls. 685 01:09:37,256 --> 01:09:39,757 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 686 01:09:41,427 --> 01:09:42,886 --> It happened chiefly at night. 687 01:09:43,012 --> 01:09:47,223 --> When the Jews talked to each other, as he showed us, 688 01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:51,644 --> the Ukrainians wanted things quiet, 689 01:09:51,770 --> 01:09:55,023 --> and they asked... yes, asked them to shut up. 690 01:09:55,149 --> 01:09:59,652 --> So the Jews shut up and the guard moved off. 691 01:09:59,778 --> 01:10:03,489 --> Then the Jews started talking again in their language, 692 01:10:03,616 --> 01:10:05,450 --> as he says, Ra-Ra-Ra, and so on. 693 01:10:05,576 --> 01:10:09,579 --> What's he mean, la-la-la? What's he trying to imitate? 694 01:10:09,705 --> 01:10:12,498 --> - Their language. - No, ask him. 695 01:10:16,337 --> 01:10:18,713 --> Was the Jews' noise something special? 696 01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:21,758 --> They spoke Jew. 697 01:10:21,884 --> 01:10:23,134 --> Yes. 698 01:10:23,260 --> 01:10:26,721 --> Does Mr. Borowi understand "Jew"? 699 01:10:26,847 --> 01:10:28,348 --> No. 700 01:10:34,647 --> 01:10:36,481 --> (Bomba) We were in that wagon. 701 01:10:36,607 --> 01:10:42,320 --> The wagon was rolling, rolling in the direction east. 702 01:10:44,323 --> 01:10:47,116 --> A funny thing happened right there. 703 01:10:47,243 --> 01:10:50,495 --> Maybe it's not nice to say, but I will say it. 704 01:10:50,621 --> 01:10:55,166 --> Most of the people, not only most, but 99% of the Polish people, 705 01:10:55,292 --> 01:10:57,543 --> when they saw the train going through... 706 01:10:57,670 --> 01:11:01,214 --> We looked really like animals in that wagon, 707 01:11:01,715 --> 01:11:04,384 --> just our eyes looked outside. 708 01:11:04,510 --> 01:11:07,887 --> And they were laughing, and they were all... 709 01:11:08,013 --> 01:11:11,599 --> They had a joy, because they took the Jewish people away. 710 01:11:14,353 --> 01:11:17,605 --> What was going on in the wagon between the people, 711 01:11:17,731 --> 01:11:20,233 --> and the pushing and the screaming... 712 01:11:20,359 --> 01:11:23,111 --> "Where is my child?" and, "Where is my this?" 713 01:11:23,237 --> 01:11:24,946 --> and "A little bit of water!" 714 01:11:25,072 --> 01:11:30,868 --> And people were not only starving, but they were choking. 715 01:11:31,745 --> 01:11:33,871 --> It was hot. It happened... Just it happened... 716 01:11:33,998 --> 01:11:35,498 --> The Jewish luck... 717 01:11:35,624 --> 01:11:39,919 --> in September, at that time, usually when it is rainy, when it is cool, 718 01:11:40,045 --> 01:11:43,298 --> that it was hot like hell. 719 01:11:43,799 --> 01:11:45,425 --> We had nothing inside. 720 01:11:45,551 --> 01:11:50,013 --> For a child, you know, like my own child about the age of three weeks, 721 01:11:50,139 --> 01:11:52,056 --> there was not a drop of water. 722 01:11:52,182 --> 01:11:53,891 --> There wasn't a drop of water for the mother, 723 01:11:54,018 --> 01:11:56,894 --> there wasn't a drop of water for anybody else. 724 01:12:02,484 --> 01:12:04,319 --> (Whistle blows) 725 01:12:11,368 --> 01:12:14,996 --> (Lanzmann in French) Did he hear screams behind his locomotive? 726 01:12:15,122 --> 01:12:17,040 --> (Whistle blows) 727 01:12:17,166 --> 01:12:20,126 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 728 01:12:20,252 --> 01:12:22,545 --> (Man replies) 729 01:12:22,671 --> 01:12:27,216 --> Obviously, since the locomotive was next to the camp. 730 01:12:27,343 --> 01:12:30,053 --> They screamed, asked for water. 731 01:12:37,394 --> 01:12:42,106 --> The screams from the cars closest to the locomotive 732 01:12:42,232 --> 01:12:44,859 --> could be heard very well. 733 01:12:48,447 --> 01:12:50,615 --> (Lanzmann) Can one get used to that? 734 01:12:50,741 --> 01:12:54,118 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 735 01:12:54,244 --> 01:12:57,121 --> (Man replies) 736 01:12:57,247 --> 01:12:58,581 --> No. 737 01:13:02,461 --> 01:13:05,254 --> It was extremely distressing to him. 738 01:13:05,381 --> 01:13:09,842 --> He knew that the people behind him were human, like him. 739 01:13:09,968 --> 01:13:11,761 --> (Whistle blows) 740 01:13:17,226 --> 01:13:23,856 --> The Germans gave him and the other workers vodka to drink. 741 01:13:23,982 --> 01:13:26,150 --> Without drinking, they couldn't have done it. 742 01:13:26,276 --> 01:13:28,111 --> (Man continues) 743 01:13:33,325 --> 01:13:35,076 --> There was a bonus... 744 01:13:39,832 --> 01:13:43,543 --> ...that they were paid not in money, but in liquor. 745 01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:46,671 --> (Man continues) 746 01:13:46,797 --> 01:13:50,675 --> Those who worked on other trains didn't get this bonus. 747 01:13:50,801 --> 01:13:53,052 --> (Whistle blows) 748 01:13:54,012 --> 01:13:57,390 --> HENRIK GAWKOWSKI 749 01:14:04,231 --> 01:14:07,442 --> (Interpreter) He drank every drop he got, 750 01:14:07,568 --> 01:14:12,447 --> because without liquor he couldn't stand the stench 751 01:14:12,573 --> 01:14:14,490 --> when he got here. 752 01:14:14,616 --> 01:14:19,120 --> They even bought more liquor on their own 753 01:14:19,246 --> 01:14:21,247 --> to get drunk on. 754 01:14:32,843 --> 01:14:34,719 --> (Bomba) We arrived in the morning. 755 01:14:34,845 --> 01:14:38,848 --> We arrived, I would say, about 6:00, maybe 6:30. 756 01:14:39,641 --> 01:14:42,643 --> On the other side of the tracks, 757 01:14:43,145 --> 01:14:47,398 --> I saw more trains standing there, 758 01:14:49,359 --> 01:14:52,028 --> and I was watching through... 759 01:14:52,154 --> 01:14:58,826 --> I saw about 18, 20, maybe more, wagons going away. 760 01:15:00,329 --> 01:15:03,414 --> And after about an hour or so, 761 01:15:03,540 --> 01:15:08,294 --> I saw the wagons coming back, but without the people. 762 01:15:19,264 --> 01:15:25,895 --> My train stayed there until about 12:00. 763 01:15:29,733 --> 01:15:34,320 --> (Lanzmann) From the station to the unloading ramp in the camp, 764 01:15:34,446 --> 01:15:36,113 --> how many miles? 765 01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,241 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 766 01:15:49,336 --> 01:15:50,586 --> Four. 767 01:16:00,180 --> 01:16:03,182 --> (Bomba) While we stayed there, at that station over there, 768 01:16:03,308 --> 01:16:07,311 --> waiting to go in Treblinka camp, 769 01:16:08,188 --> 01:16:11,649 --> some of those German SS, they came around, 770 01:16:11,775 --> 01:16:14,694 --> and they were asking us what we have. 771 01:16:15,737 --> 01:16:21,492 --> So we said, "We got... Some of the people, they have... gold. 772 01:16:21,618 --> 01:16:23,744 --> "They have diamonds. 773 01:16:23,870 --> 01:16:26,163 --> "But we want water." 774 01:16:28,041 --> 01:16:29,542 --> So they said, "Good. 775 01:16:29,668 --> 01:16:32,211 --> "Give us the diamonds, we bring you water." 776 01:16:33,714 --> 01:16:37,300 --> Yeah, they took them away and they didn't bring any water at all. 777 01:16:43,348 --> 01:16:45,391 --> (Lanzmann) How long did last the trip? 778 01:16:45,517 --> 01:16:51,230 --> The trip lasted from Czestochowa to Treblinka 779 01:16:51,940 --> 01:16:54,233 --> about 24 hours, 780 01:16:54,735 --> 01:16:57,862 --> with interruption waiting in Warsaw 781 01:16:57,988 --> 01:17:01,949 --> and also waiting at Treblinka to go into Treblinka. 782 01:17:02,075 --> 01:17:04,285 --> ABRAHAM BOMBA 783 01:17:04,411 --> 01:17:07,788 --> At the last train, we went in over there. 784 01:17:07,914 --> 01:17:09,999 --> But, like I mentioned before, 785 01:17:10,125 --> 01:17:12,418 --> I saw many trains coming back, 786 01:17:12,544 --> 01:17:15,338 --> but the trains were without the people. 787 01:17:15,464 --> 01:17:18,841 --> So I said to myself, "What happened to the people? 788 01:17:18,967 --> 01:17:22,219 --> We don't see any people, just trains coming back." 789 01:17:22,346 --> 01:17:24,347 --> (Train clacking) 790 01:17:28,018 --> 01:17:30,478 --> (Glazar in German) We travelled for two days. 791 01:17:31,897 --> 01:17:34,190 --> On the morning of the second day, 792 01:17:34,316 --> 01:17:38,861 --> we saw that we had left Czechoslovakia 793 01:17:38,987 --> 01:17:43,658 --> and were heading east. 794 01:17:44,242 --> 01:17:46,077 --> (Train whistle blows) 795 01:17:48,455 --> 01:17:52,375 --> It wasn't the SS guarding us, 796 01:17:52,501 --> 01:17:56,504 --> but the Schutzpolizei, 797 01:17:56,630 --> 01:17:59,340 --> the police, in green uniforms. 798 01:18:02,511 --> 01:18:05,721 --> We were in ordinary passenger cars. 799 01:18:05,847 --> 01:18:07,848 --> All the seats were filled. 800 01:18:09,059 --> 01:18:11,352 --> You couldn't choose. 801 01:18:11,478 --> 01:18:14,230 --> They were all numbered and assigned. 802 01:18:16,274 --> 01:18:20,569 --> In my compartment there was an elderly couple. 803 01:18:20,696 --> 01:18:22,446 --> I still remember... 804 01:18:22,572 --> 01:18:28,452 --> The good man was always hungry and his wife scolded him, 805 01:18:28,578 --> 01:18:35,209 --> saying they'd have no food left for the future. 806 01:18:36,420 --> 01:18:39,004 --> RICHARD GLAZAR 807 01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:41,006 --> (Whistle blows) 808 01:18:41,842 --> 01:18:45,136 --> Then, on the second day, 809 01:18:45,262 --> 01:18:48,639 --> I saw a sign for Malkinia. 810 01:18:48,765 --> 01:18:50,933 --> We went on a little farther. 811 01:18:51,435 --> 01:18:56,313 --> Then, very slowly, 812 01:18:56,440 --> 01:19:00,317 --> the train turned off the main track 813 01:19:00,444 --> 01:19:04,739 --> and rolled at a walking pace through a wood. 814 01:19:04,865 --> 01:19:07,742 --> While he looked out, 815 01:19:08,618 --> 01:19:11,287 --> we'd been able to open a window. 816 01:19:11,413 --> 01:19:15,374 --> The old man in our compartment saw a boy... 817 01:19:15,500 --> 01:19:19,170 --> Cows were grazing... 818 01:19:19,296 --> 01:19:23,090 --> And he asked the boy in signs, 819 01:19:23,216 --> 01:19:25,593 --> "Where are we?" 820 01:19:26,511 --> 01:19:29,513 --> And the kid made a funny gesture. This! 821 01:19:30,432 --> 01:19:32,141 --> Across the throat. 822 01:19:34,728 --> 01:19:36,896 --> - (Lanzmann) A Pole? - A Pole. 823 01:19:37,022 --> 01:19:39,315 --> Where was this? At the station? 824 01:19:39,441 --> 01:19:45,279 --> It was where the train had stopped. 825 01:19:45,405 --> 01:19:47,239 --> On one side was the wood, 826 01:19:47,365 --> 01:19:50,367 --> and on the other were fields. 827 01:19:50,494 --> 01:19:52,745 --> And there was a farmer in a field? 828 01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:55,915 --> We saw cows 829 01:19:56,041 --> 01:19:59,752 --> which were watched over by a young man, 830 01:19:59,878 --> 01:20:03,881 --> a farmhand. 831 01:20:05,217 --> 01:20:07,259 --> And one of you questioned him? 832 01:20:07,385 --> 01:20:14,141 --> Not in words, but in signs, we asked, "What's going on here?" 833 01:20:14,267 --> 01:20:17,269 --> And he made that gesture. Like this. 834 01:20:19,272 --> 01:20:26,028 --> We didn't really pay much attention to him. 835 01:20:26,154 --> 01:20:28,656 --> We couldn't figure out what he meant. 836 01:20:28,782 --> 01:20:30,449 --> (Dogs barking) 837 01:20:40,961 --> 01:20:42,962 --> (Man speaks Polish) 838 01:20:47,843 --> 01:20:50,928 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in French) Once there were foreign Jews... 839 01:20:51,471 --> 01:20:55,224 --> - They were this fat. - (Lanzmann) This fat? 840 01:20:55,350 --> 01:20:58,477 --> Riding in passenger cars. 841 01:20:58,603 --> 01:21:03,983 --> There was a dining car, they could drink and walk around too. 842 01:21:04,109 --> 01:21:08,153 --> They said they were going to a factory. 843 01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:12,783 --> On arrival, they saw what kind of a factory it was. 844 01:21:13,326 --> 01:21:15,327 --> (Men speaking Polish) 845 01:21:17,038 --> 01:21:20,207 --> (Interpreter) We'd gesture... (Lanzmann) Gesture how? 846 01:21:22,669 --> 01:21:26,213 --> (Interpreter) That they'd be killed. (Lanzmann) They made that sign? 847 01:21:26,339 --> 01:21:28,382 --> He says the Jews didn't believe it. 848 01:21:28,508 --> 01:21:30,759 --> (Lanzmann) But what does that gesture mean? 849 01:21:33,471 --> 01:21:35,890 --> That death awaited them. 850 01:21:48,111 --> 01:21:51,238 --> The people who had a chance to get near the Jews 851 01:21:51,364 --> 01:21:53,616 --> did that to warn them... 852 01:21:53,742 --> 01:21:56,452 --> - (Lanzmann) He did it too? - That they'd be hanged, killed, slain. 853 01:21:56,578 --> 01:21:57,995 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 854 01:21:58,121 --> 01:21:59,496 --> Yes. 855 01:22:02,584 --> 01:22:06,545 --> Even foreign Jews from Belgium, Czechoslovakia, 856 01:22:06,671 --> 01:22:09,006 --> from France too, surely. 857 01:22:10,175 --> 01:22:11,842 --> And from Holland... 858 01:22:14,429 --> 01:22:16,013 --> These didn't know, 859 01:22:23,605 --> 01:22:27,149 --> but the Polish Jews knew. 860 01:22:27,275 --> 01:22:33,113 --> In the small cities in the area, 861 01:22:33,239 --> 01:22:34,406 --> it was talked about. 862 01:22:34,532 --> 01:22:38,577 --> So the Polish Jews were forewarned, but not the others. 863 01:22:38,703 --> 01:22:41,705 --> Who'd they warn, Polish Jews or the others? 864 01:22:47,754 --> 01:22:50,547 --> All the Jews. 865 01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:15,698 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 866 01:23:15,824 --> 01:23:19,326 --> He says the foreign Jews arrived here in passenger cars, 867 01:23:19,452 --> 01:23:21,912 --> they were well dressed, in white shirts, 868 01:23:22,038 --> 01:23:26,458 --> there were flowers in the cars, and they played cards. 869 01:23:27,043 --> 01:23:31,213 --> (Lanzmann in French) From what I know, that was very rare, 870 01:23:31,339 --> 01:23:34,758 --> Jews shipped in passenger cars. 871 01:23:34,884 --> 01:23:38,637 --> Most arrived in cattle cars. 872 01:23:38,763 --> 01:23:41,432 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 873 01:23:53,945 --> 01:23:55,821 --> It's not true. 874 01:23:55,947 --> 01:23:57,698 --> (Lanzmann) It's not true? 875 01:23:57,824 --> 01:23:59,867 --> (Woman speaks Polish) 876 01:24:01,244 --> 01:24:02,995 --> (Lanzmann) What did Mrs. Gawkowska say? 877 01:24:03,121 --> 01:24:07,499 --> (Interpreter j& 1) She said he may not have seen everything. 878 01:24:07,625 --> 01:24:10,961 --> (Interpreter j& 1) He says he did. 879 01:24:38,156 --> 01:24:41,241 --> Once, at the Malkinia station, for example, 880 01:24:41,367 --> 01:24:44,661 --> a foreign Jew left the train 881 01:24:44,788 --> 01:24:47,164 --> to buy something at the bar. 882 01:24:47,665 --> 01:24:52,836 --> The train pulled out and he ran after it. 883 01:24:52,962 --> 01:24:55,964 --> (Lanzmann) To catch up to it? (Interpreter j& 1) Yes. 884 01:24:56,091 --> 01:25:01,261 --> So he went past these "Pullmans," as he calls them, 885 01:25:01,387 --> 01:25:06,475 --> those Jews who were calm, unsuspecting, 886 01:25:06,601 --> 01:25:09,061 --> and he made that gesture to them. 887 01:25:09,187 --> 01:25:11,021 --> (Speaks Polish) 888 01:25:18,613 --> 01:25:19,780 --> Yes. 889 01:25:20,490 --> 01:25:22,658 --> To all the Jews, in principle. 890 01:25:22,784 --> 01:25:25,536 --> He just went along the platform? Ask him. 891 01:25:32,710 --> 01:25:37,005 --> Yes. The road was as it is now. 892 01:25:39,217 --> 01:25:43,720 --> When the guard wasn't looking, 893 01:25:43,847 --> 01:25:46,306 --> he made that gesture. 894 01:25:51,312 --> 01:25:54,982 --> (Lanzmann) Ask Mr. Gawkowski why he looks so sad. 895 01:25:55,108 --> 01:25:58,110 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 896 01:26:03,867 --> 01:26:06,702 --> Because I saw men marching to their death. 897 01:26:09,539 --> 01:26:11,874 --> (Lanzmann) Precisely where are we now? 898 01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,710 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 899 01:26:21,593 --> 01:26:26,430 --> It's not far, a mile and a halffrom here. 900 01:26:26,556 --> 01:26:28,473 --> - (Lanzmann) What, the camp? - Yes. 901 01:26:30,685 --> 01:26:32,186 --> Yes. 902 01:26:34,272 --> 01:26:37,941 --> (Lanzmann) What's that dirt road he's indicating? 903 01:26:41,154 --> 01:26:44,698 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 904 01:26:46,951 --> 01:26:50,120 --> That's where the rail line into the camp was. 905 01:27:08,348 --> 01:27:12,142 --> (Lanzmann) Did Mr. Gawkowski, aside from the trains of deportees 906 01:27:12,268 --> 01:27:17,856 --> that he drove from Warsaw or Bialystok to Treblinka station, 907 01:27:17,982 --> 01:27:22,486 --> did he ever drive the deportee cars 908 01:27:22,612 --> 01:27:25,530 --> into the camp from Treblinka station? 909 01:27:26,491 --> 01:27:29,076 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 910 01:27:39,087 --> 01:27:40,295 --> Yes. 911 01:27:42,382 --> 01:27:46,051 --> - (Lanzmann) Did he do it often? - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 912 01:27:48,096 --> 01:27:50,764 --> Two or three times a week. 913 01:27:51,516 --> 01:27:54,268 --> (Lanzmann) Over how long a period? 914 01:27:57,772 --> 01:28:00,148 --> Around a year and a half. 915 01:28:00,275 --> 01:28:03,360 --> (Lanzmann) That is, throughout the camp's existence? 916 01:28:03,486 --> 01:28:05,821 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 917 01:28:05,947 --> 01:28:07,322 --> Yes. 918 01:28:43,776 --> 01:28:46,737 --> - (Lanzmann) This is the ramp. - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 919 01:28:46,863 --> 01:28:49,781 --> Here he is, he goes to the end with his locomotive, 920 01:28:49,907 --> 01:28:53,160 --> and he has the 20 cars behind him. 921 01:28:53,870 --> 01:28:59,333 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 922 01:28:59,459 --> 01:29:02,294 --> No, they're in front of him. 923 01:29:02,420 --> 01:29:05,005 --> He pushed them? 924 01:29:05,131 --> 01:29:07,924 --> That's right, he pushed them. 925 01:29:08,051 --> 01:29:09,885 --> (Interpreter j& 1) Yes. 926 01:29:51,844 --> 01:29:53,845 --> (Piwonski speaks Polish) 927 01:30:05,024 --> 01:30:07,067 --> (Interpreter j& 1) In February 1942, 928 01:30:07,193 --> 01:30:10,320 --> I began working here as an assistant switchman. 929 01:30:11,906 --> 01:30:15,200 --> (Lanzmann) The station building, the rails, the platforms 930 01:30:15,326 --> 01:30:18,328 --> are just as they were in 1942? 931 01:30:18,454 --> 01:30:23,583 --> - Nothing's changed? - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 932 01:30:23,709 --> 01:30:25,293 --> Nothing. 933 01:30:25,420 --> 01:30:28,296 --> Exactly where did the camp begin? 934 01:30:31,384 --> 01:30:33,510 --> JAN PIWONSKI 935 01:30:34,095 --> 01:30:36,763 --> I'll show you exactly. 936 01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:57,617 --> Here, 937 01:31:04,083 --> 01:31:07,878 --> there was a fence that ran to those trees you see there. 938 01:31:08,004 --> 01:31:09,337 --> (Lanzmann) Yes. 939 01:31:15,178 --> 01:31:18,430 --> And another fence that ran to those trees over there. 940 01:31:19,348 --> 01:31:23,852 --> So I'm standing inside the camp perimeter, right? 941 01:31:27,690 --> 01:31:28,732 --> That's right. 942 01:31:28,858 --> 01:31:32,569 --> Where I am now is 50 feet from the station, 943 01:31:32,695 --> 01:31:34,404 --> and I'm already outside the camp. 944 01:31:34,530 --> 01:31:39,075 --> (Interpreter j& 1 and Piwonski speak Polish) 945 01:31:39,202 --> 01:31:40,368 --> Yes. 946 01:31:43,873 --> 01:31:46,875 --> So this is the Polish part, and over there was death? 947 01:31:47,001 --> 01:31:50,086 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 948 01:31:50,213 --> 01:31:51,213 --> Yes. 949 01:31:53,341 --> 01:31:55,342 --> (Piwonski continues) 950 01:32:02,016 --> 01:32:06,144 --> On German orders, Polish railmen split up the trains. 951 01:32:13,903 --> 01:32:15,820 --> So the locomotive took 20 cars 952 01:32:15,947 --> 01:32:18,490 --> and headed toward Chelm. 953 01:32:21,827 --> 01:32:23,495 --> When it reached a switch... 954 01:32:26,249 --> 01:32:32,712 --> ...it pushed the cars into the camp on the other track we can see. 955 01:32:33,548 --> 01:32:34,756 --> The ramp began there. 956 01:32:34,882 --> 01:32:38,218 --> So here we're outside the camp, 957 01:32:38,344 --> 01:32:42,722 --> and back here we enter it. 958 01:32:42,848 --> 01:32:47,519 --> Unlike Treblinka, the station here is part of the camp. 959 01:32:50,731 --> 01:32:52,190 --> Yes... 960 01:32:52,984 --> 01:32:57,445 --> And at this point, we are inside the camp. 961 01:33:00,366 --> 01:33:03,201 --> (Interpreter j& 1) This track was inside the camp. 962 01:33:04,036 --> 01:33:07,872 --> And it's exactly as it was? Hmm? 963 01:33:11,460 --> 01:33:13,253 --> Yes, the same track. 964 01:33:13,713 --> 01:33:15,880 --> It hasn't changed since then. 965 01:33:16,007 --> 01:33:20,093 --> Where we are now is what was called the ramp, right? 966 01:33:28,894 --> 01:33:33,648 --> Yes, those to be exterminated were unloaded here. 967 01:33:33,774 --> 01:33:35,191 --> So where we're standing 968 01:33:35,318 --> 01:33:40,196 --> is where 250,000 Jews were unloaded before being gassed? 969 01:33:44,702 --> 01:33:45,702 --> Yes. 970 01:33:51,334 --> 01:33:56,296 --> (Lanzmann) Did foreign Jews arrive here in passenger cars, too? 971 01:33:56,422 --> 01:33:58,423 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 972 01:34:03,888 --> 01:34:06,931 --> Not always. 973 01:34:07,058 --> 01:34:11,394 --> (Piwonski continues) 974 01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:13,480 --> Often the richest Jews... 975 01:34:15,191 --> 01:34:16,941 --> ...from Belgium, Holland, France... 976 01:34:19,153 --> 01:34:20,654 --> ...arrived in passenger cars... 977 01:34:21,906 --> 01:34:24,574 --> ...sometimes even in 1st class. 978 01:34:28,496 --> 01:34:31,581 --> They were usually better treated by the guards. 979 01:34:53,979 --> 01:34:57,440 --> Especially the convoys of Western European Jews 980 01:34:57,566 --> 01:35:00,110 --> waiting their turn here, 981 01:35:02,947 --> 01:35:07,117 --> Polish railmen saw the women putting on make-up, combing their hair, 982 01:35:07,243 --> 01:35:10,245 --> wholly unaware of what awaited them minutes later. 983 01:35:10,371 --> 01:35:11,496 --> Yes. 984 01:35:11,622 --> 01:35:13,498 --> They dolled up. 985 01:35:24,510 --> 01:35:26,803 --> And the Poles couldn't tell them anything, 986 01:35:26,929 --> 01:35:32,225 --> the guards forbade contact with the future victims. 987 01:35:40,151 --> 01:35:42,694 --> (Lanzmann) I suppose there were fine days like today. 988 01:35:43,946 --> 01:35:45,947 --> (Interpreter j& 1 and Piwonski in Polish) 989 01:35:49,994 --> 01:35:53,037 --> Unfortunately, some were even finer. 990 01:36:00,254 --> 01:36:03,256 --> RUDOLF VRBA - NEW YORK, USA SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ 991 01:36:03,382 --> 01:36:05,884 --> (Vrba) There was a place called the ramp, 992 01:36:06,010 --> 01:36:10,054 --> where the trains with the Jews were coming in, in Auschwitz. 993 01:36:11,766 --> 01:36:14,225 --> They were coming in day or night, 994 01:36:14,351 --> 01:36:18,104 --> and sometimes one per day, and sometimes five per day, 995 01:36:18,230 --> 01:36:20,690 --> from all sorts of places in the world. 996 01:36:21,984 --> 01:36:25,570 --> I worked there from August 18, 1942 997 01:36:25,696 --> 01:36:29,073 --> until June 7, 1943. 998 01:36:31,535 --> 01:36:34,370 --> I saw those transports rolling one after the other, 999 01:36:34,497 --> 01:36:38,625 --> and I am sure that I have seen at least two hundred of them, in this position. 1000 01:36:40,044 --> 01:36:43,588 --> I have seen it so many times that it became a routine. 1001 01:36:46,091 --> 01:36:49,010 --> Constantly, people from the heart of Europe were disappearing, 1002 01:36:49,136 --> 01:36:51,429 --> and they were arriving to the same place 1003 01:36:51,555 --> 01:36:55,308 --> with the same ignorance of the fate of the previous transports. 1004 01:36:56,310 --> 01:36:58,978 --> And that people in this mass... 1005 01:36:59,104 --> 01:37:02,607 --> And I knew, of course, that within a couple of hours after they arrived there, 1006 01:37:02,733 --> 01:37:06,402 --> 90% of them will be gassed, or something like that. I knew that. 1007 01:37:06,529 --> 01:37:10,532 --> And somehow, in my thinking, it... I could... 1008 01:37:10,658 --> 01:37:15,119 --> it was difficult for me to comprehend that people can disappear in this way, 1009 01:37:15,788 --> 01:37:17,205 --> and nothing is going to happen, 1010 01:37:17,331 --> 01:37:19,958 --> and then there comes the next transport, 1011 01:37:20,084 --> 01:37:23,878 --> and they don't know anything about what happened to the previous transport, 1012 01:37:24,004 --> 01:37:27,841 --> and this is going on for months and months, on and on. 1013 01:37:29,885 --> 01:37:32,971 --> AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU 1014 01:37:34,390 --> 01:37:36,391 --> So what happened was the following: 1015 01:37:36,892 --> 01:37:41,062 --> say, a transport of Jews was announced to come at 2:00. 1016 01:37:41,605 --> 01:37:45,233 --> So when the transport arrived to close stations from Auschwitz, 1017 01:37:45,359 --> 01:37:48,069 --> the announcement came to the SS. 1018 01:37:48,904 --> 01:37:51,406 --> Now, one SS man came and woke us up. 1019 01:37:51,532 --> 01:37:55,326 --> We had to get up and move to the ramp. 1020 01:37:55,452 --> 01:37:58,371 --> We immediately got an escort in the night, 1021 01:37:58,497 --> 01:38:00,582 --> and we were escorted to the ramp. 1022 01:38:00,708 --> 01:38:03,126 --> Say, we were about 200 men. 1023 01:38:04,044 --> 01:38:06,421 --> And lights went on. 1024 01:38:08,382 --> 01:38:10,049 --> There was a ramp. 1025 01:38:10,175 --> 01:38:12,969 --> Around the ramp were lights, 1026 01:38:13,095 --> 01:38:17,557 --> and under those lights were the cordon of the SS. 1027 01:38:17,683 --> 01:38:21,853 --> There was one every 10 yards, with a gun in the hand. 1028 01:38:23,147 --> 01:38:26,232 --> So, we were in the middle, the prisoners, 1029 01:38:26,775 --> 01:38:28,401 --> and we were waiting, 1030 01:38:28,527 --> 01:38:31,529 --> waiting for the train, waiting for the next order. 1031 01:38:33,073 --> 01:38:36,242 --> Now, when all this was done, everybody was there, 1032 01:38:36,785 --> 01:38:38,912 --> the transport was rolled in. 1033 01:38:40,164 --> 01:38:42,916 --> This means in a very slow fashion. 1034 01:38:43,542 --> 01:38:46,586 --> The locomotive, which was always at the front, 1035 01:38:47,129 --> 01:38:49,005 --> was coming to the ramp, 1036 01:38:49,131 --> 01:38:51,424 --> and that was the end of the railway line. 1037 01:38:51,550 --> 01:38:55,470 --> That was the end of the line for everybody who was on the train. 1038 01:39:00,351 --> 01:39:03,353 --> And, now, the train stopped, and... 1039 01:39:04,647 --> 01:39:07,690 --> the gangster elite marched on the ramp. 1040 01:39:08,776 --> 01:39:11,945 --> And in front of every second or every third wagon, 1041 01:39:12,071 --> 01:39:14,530 --> and sometimes in front of every wagon, 1042 01:39:14,657 --> 01:39:17,075 --> one of those Unterscharführers... 1043 01:39:19,912 --> 01:39:21,913 --> ...was standing with a key 1044 01:39:22,373 --> 01:39:24,624 --> and opened the locks, 1045 01:39:24,750 --> 01:39:28,127 --> because the wagons were locked. 1046 01:39:30,047 --> 01:39:33,257 --> Now, inside, there were people, of course, 1047 01:39:33,384 --> 01:39:35,718 --> and you could see the people looking through the windows, 1048 01:39:35,844 --> 01:39:37,303 --> because they didn't know what's happening. 1049 01:39:37,429 --> 01:39:38,972 --> They had many stops on their journey. 1050 01:39:39,098 --> 01:39:40,698 --> Some of them were 10 days on the journey. 1051 01:39:40,766 --> 01:39:43,059 --> Some were two days on the journey. 1052 01:39:44,269 --> 01:39:46,813 --> And they didn't know what this particular stop means. 1053 01:39:46,939 --> 01:39:48,982 --> Now, the door was opened. 1054 01:39:49,858 --> 01:39:52,819 --> And the first order they were given was, 1055 01:39:52,945 --> 01:39:56,447 --> "Alle heraus!" "Everybody out!" 1056 01:39:57,616 --> 01:39:59,200 --> In order to make it quite clear, 1057 01:39:59,326 --> 01:40:03,371 --> they usually started with those walking sticks 1058 01:40:03,497 --> 01:40:06,874 --> to hit the first, the second, the third, who were... 1059 01:40:07,001 --> 01:40:08,960 --> They were... They were... 1060 01:40:09,086 --> 01:40:11,170 --> They were like sardines in those cars. 1061 01:40:13,924 --> 01:40:17,260 --> If they expected on that day four, five, six transports, 1062 01:40:17,386 --> 01:40:21,848 --> the pressure of getting out from the wagons was high. 1063 01:40:28,897 --> 01:40:32,942 --> Then they used sticks, clubs, cursing, et cetera, et cetera. 1064 01:40:36,071 --> 01:40:38,239 --> Sometimes, the SS, if it was good weather, 1065 01:40:38,365 --> 01:40:39,907 --> they used to deal with it differently. 1066 01:40:40,034 --> 01:40:44,370 --> I mean, I was not surprised if they were in a different mood and... 1067 01:40:44,496 --> 01:40:47,373 --> and exhibited a lot of humour, 1068 01:40:47,499 --> 01:40:49,375 --> like saying, "Good morning, Madam," 1069 01:40:49,501 --> 01:40:51,711 --> and, "Will you please walk out?" 1070 01:40:51,837 --> 01:40:54,797 --> - (Lanzmann) It happened? - Oh, yes. Oh, yes. 1071 01:40:54,923 --> 01:40:57,508 --> And, "How nice that you arrived. 1072 01:40:57,634 --> 01:40:59,886 --> "We are so sorry that it wasn't too convenient, 1073 01:41:00,012 --> 01:41:02,680 --> "but now things will become different." 1074 01:41:06,643 --> 01:41:09,479 --> (Bomba) When we came into Treblinka, 1075 01:41:09,605 --> 01:41:11,981 --> we didn't know who the people were. 1076 01:41:12,441 --> 01:41:15,943 --> Some of them, they had armbands, some of them red. 1077 01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:19,781 --> Some of them, they had blue, Jewish kommando. 1078 01:41:21,450 --> 01:41:23,868 --> Falling out from the train 1079 01:41:24,411 --> 01:41:27,163 --> and pushing out each other 1080 01:41:27,289 --> 01:41:30,333 --> and, over there, losing each other, 1081 01:41:30,459 --> 01:41:34,378 --> and the... and the... and the crying and the hollering. 1082 01:41:34,505 --> 01:41:37,173 --> And, coming out, 1083 01:41:38,842 --> 01:41:42,637 --> we started on one way to the right, one to the left, 1084 01:41:42,763 --> 01:41:45,681 --> the women to the left and the men on the right. 1085 01:41:46,975 --> 01:41:48,726 --> And... 1086 01:41:49,686 --> 01:41:53,606 --> we had no time to even look at each other, 1087 01:41:54,191 --> 01:41:57,777 --> because they start hitting over the head 1088 01:41:58,362 --> 01:42:00,780 --> with all kinds of things. 1089 01:42:02,241 --> 01:42:03,658 --> And... 1090 01:42:05,202 --> 01:42:07,203 --> it is very, very... 1091 01:42:07,329 --> 01:42:09,205 --> Painful, it was. 1092 01:42:11,250 --> 01:42:14,836 --> You didn't know what had happened. 1093 01:42:14,962 --> 01:42:17,463 --> You had no time to think. 1094 01:42:17,589 --> 01:42:20,424 --> All you heard is crying. 1095 01:42:20,884 --> 01:42:25,596 --> And all you heard, all the time, was the hollering of the people. 1096 01:42:26,598 --> 01:42:28,766 --> (In German) And suddenly it started, 1097 01:42:28,892 --> 01:42:31,561 --> the yelling and screaming. 1098 01:42:31,687 --> 01:42:33,646 --> "All out, everybody out!" 1099 01:42:34,106 --> 01:42:38,234 --> All those shouts, the uproar, the tumult! 1100 01:42:38,777 --> 01:42:41,070 --> "Out! Get out! 1101 01:42:43,782 --> 01:42:45,992 --> "Leave the baggage!" 1102 01:42:46,535 --> 01:42:50,288 --> We got out, stepping on each other. 1103 01:42:55,085 --> 01:43:00,965 --> We saw men wearing blue armbands. 1104 01:43:01,091 --> 01:43:05,720 --> Some carried whips. 1105 01:43:07,890 --> 01:43:10,558 --> We saw some SS men. 1106 01:43:10,684 --> 01:43:13,769 --> Green uniforms, 1107 01:43:13,896 --> 01:43:18,983 --> black uniforms... 1108 01:43:21,695 --> 01:43:23,696 --> We were a mass... 1109 01:43:25,949 --> 01:43:29,410 --> And the mass swept us along. 1110 01:43:29,536 --> 01:43:34,790 --> It was irresistible. It had to move to another place. 1111 01:43:47,095 --> 01:43:49,597 --> I saw the others undressing. 1112 01:43:51,099 --> 01:43:55,645 --> And I heard, "Get undressed! You're to be disinfected!" 1113 01:43:58,190 --> 01:44:01,734 --> As I waited, already naked, 1114 01:44:01,860 --> 01:44:08,783 --> I noticed the SS men separating out some people. 1115 01:44:08,909 --> 01:44:11,244 --> These were told to get dressed. 1116 01:44:13,163 --> 01:44:19,293 --> A passing SS man suddenly stopped in front of me, 1117 01:44:20,671 --> 01:44:23,965 --> looked me over, and said, 1118 01:44:24,091 --> 01:44:29,220 --> "Yes, you too, quick, join the others, get dressed. 1119 01:44:29,346 --> 01:44:33,891 --> "You're going to work here, and if you're good, 1120 01:44:34,017 --> 01:44:36,811 --> "you can be a kapo, a squad leader." 1121 01:44:42,359 --> 01:44:47,530 --> (Bomba) At my transport, I was waiting, already naked. 1122 01:44:49,324 --> 01:44:53,661 --> A man came over and asked, "You, you, you, step out." 1123 01:44:53,787 --> 01:44:55,997 --> We stepped out, 1124 01:44:56,123 --> 01:44:59,959 --> and they took us a little bit to the side. 1125 01:45:02,087 --> 01:45:05,464 --> Some of the people from the transport, 1126 01:45:05,590 --> 01:45:07,800 --> they had an idea what is going on, 1127 01:45:07,926 --> 01:45:12,930 --> and they know already that they will not stay alive. 1128 01:45:13,932 --> 01:45:17,393 --> Pushing the people, they didn't want to go, 1129 01:45:17,519 --> 01:45:20,271 --> or they knew already where they go, 1130 01:45:20,397 --> 01:45:24,483 --> to that big door. 1131 01:45:26,778 --> 01:45:29,989 --> The hollering and the crying and the shouting 1132 01:45:30,115 --> 01:45:32,783 --> what was going over there on, 1133 01:45:34,036 --> 01:45:36,454 --> it was impossible. 1134 01:45:37,122 --> 01:45:42,793 --> The cries and the hollers was in your ears and in your mind 1135 01:45:42,919 --> 01:45:45,087 --> for days and days, 1136 01:45:45,547 --> 01:45:47,673 --> and, at night, the same thing. 1137 01:45:47,799 --> 01:45:52,303 --> From that hollering, you could not even sleep a couple nights of that. 1138 01:45:55,182 --> 01:45:59,018 --> All of a sudden, at one time, everything stopped, 1139 01:45:59,144 --> 01:46:02,063 --> like by a command. 1140 01:46:14,785 --> 01:46:17,328 --> It was all quiet, 1141 01:46:17,454 --> 01:46:21,040 --> the place where the people went in. 1142 01:46:21,917 --> 01:46:24,752 --> Just like on a command. 1143 01:46:25,712 --> 01:46:27,713 --> Like everything was dead. 1144 01:46:39,351 --> 01:46:45,689 --> Then, they told us to make clean the whole place. 1145 01:46:45,816 --> 01:46:50,444 --> It was about 2,000 people 1146 01:46:50,570 --> 01:46:53,489 --> which they undressed on the outside. 1147 01:46:54,950 --> 01:46:59,703 --> To take the whole thing away and to clear up the place, 1148 01:46:59,830 --> 01:47:04,041 --> and that has to be done in minutes. 1149 01:47:06,461 --> 01:47:10,131 --> Some of the Germans, some of the other people that were there, 1150 01:47:10,257 --> 01:47:12,383 --> the Ukrainians or the other ones, 1151 01:47:12,509 --> 01:47:18,889 --> they start shouting and hitting us that we should do it faster, 1152 01:47:19,015 --> 01:47:25,062 --> to carry the bundles on our backs faster to the main place, 1153 01:47:26,064 --> 01:47:32,528 --> where it was big places of clothes, 1154 01:47:32,654 --> 01:47:35,823 --> of shoes, of other things. 1155 01:47:36,450 --> 01:47:39,160 --> In no time, this was clean, 1156 01:47:39,286 --> 01:47:41,287 --> just like it never happened, 1157 01:47:41,413 --> 01:47:44,665 --> that never was people on that place again. 1158 01:47:45,417 --> 01:47:50,212 --> There was no trace, not at all. 1159 01:47:51,006 --> 01:47:55,217 --> Like a magic thing, everything disappeared. 1160 01:47:56,970 --> 01:47:59,889 --> BIRKENAU: THE RAMP 1161 01:48:04,519 --> 01:48:06,770 --> (Vrba) Whenever a new transport came, 1162 01:48:06,897 --> 01:48:11,025 --> the ramp was cleaned absolutely to zero point. 1163 01:48:14,613 --> 01:48:18,991 --> No trace from the previous transport was allowed to remain. 1164 01:48:20,327 --> 01:48:22,369 --> Not one trace. 1165 01:48:33,256 --> 01:48:37,218 --> (Glazar in German) We were taken to the barracks. 1166 01:48:38,637 --> 01:48:42,139 --> The whole place stank. 1167 01:48:44,392 --> 01:48:48,312 --> Piled about five feet high 1168 01:48:48,438 --> 01:48:53,359 --> in a jumbled mass, 1169 01:48:53,485 --> 01:48:58,405 --> were all the things people could conceivably have brought. 1170 01:48:59,824 --> 01:49:03,369 --> Clothes, suitcases, 1171 01:49:03,495 --> 01:49:08,707 --> everything stacked in a solid mass. 1172 01:49:09,793 --> 01:49:13,671 --> On top of it, jumping around like demons, 1173 01:49:13,797 --> 01:49:19,718 --> people were making bundles 1174 01:49:19,844 --> 01:49:23,138 --> and carrying them outside. 1175 01:49:24,057 --> 01:49:28,185 --> I was turned over to one of these men. 1176 01:49:28,311 --> 01:49:33,023 --> His armband said, "Squad Leader." 1177 01:49:33,692 --> 01:49:35,234 --> He shouted, 1178 01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:41,448 --> and I understood that I was also to pick up clothing, bundle it, 1179 01:49:43,118 --> 01:49:48,831 --> and take it somewhere. 1180 01:49:51,251 --> 01:49:54,753 --> As I worked, I asked him, 1181 01:49:54,879 --> 01:49:59,466 --> "What's going on? The undressed ones, where are they?" 1182 01:50:00,552 --> 01:50:05,598 --> And he replied, "Dead! All dead!" 1183 01:50:07,976 --> 01:50:12,605 --> But it still hadn't sunk in, I didn't believe it. 1184 01:50:13,273 --> 01:50:15,065 --> He'd used the Yiddish word. 1185 01:50:15,191 --> 01:50:20,821 --> It was the first time I'd heard Yiddish spoken. 1186 01:50:23,575 --> 01:50:27,828 --> He didn't say it very loud, 1187 01:50:28,913 --> 01:50:33,834 --> and I saw he had tears in his eyes. 1188 01:50:34,878 --> 01:50:38,672 --> Suddenly he started shouting 1189 01:50:38,798 --> 01:50:40,924 --> and raised his whip. 1190 01:50:41,051 --> 01:50:46,055 --> Out of the corner of my eyes, I saw an SS man coming. 1191 01:50:46,181 --> 01:50:50,434 --> And I understood that I was to ask no more questions, 1192 01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:56,899 --> but just to rush outside with the package. 1193 01:51:00,904 --> 01:51:04,448 --> (Bomba) At that time, we start working 1194 01:51:04,574 --> 01:51:08,452 --> in that place which they call Treblinka. 1195 01:51:10,330 --> 01:51:13,290 --> And still, I couldn't believe what had happened 1196 01:51:13,416 --> 01:51:17,294 --> over there on the other side of the gate, 1197 01:51:17,962 --> 01:51:21,465 --> where the people went in, disappeared, 1198 01:51:21,591 --> 01:51:24,218 --> or everything got quiet. 1199 01:51:27,639 --> 01:51:29,765 --> But in a minute, we find out, 1200 01:51:29,891 --> 01:51:33,727 --> when we start to ask the people which they worked before us 1201 01:51:33,853 --> 01:51:35,604 --> what had happened with them. 1202 01:51:35,730 --> 01:51:39,233 --> They said, "What do you mean, what happened? Don't you know that? 1203 01:51:40,068 --> 01:51:43,028 --> "They're all gassed. They're all killed." 1204 01:51:43,780 --> 01:51:48,283 --> It was impossible to say something 1205 01:51:48,827 --> 01:51:51,286 --> because we were just like stones. 1206 01:51:51,413 --> 01:51:54,248 --> We couldn't mention what had happened to the wife, 1207 01:51:54,374 --> 01:51:55,833 --> what had happened to the kid. 1208 01:51:55,959 --> 01:51:58,001 --> "What do you mean, wife? What do you mean, kid? 1209 01:51:58,128 --> 01:52:00,295 --> "Nobody is anymore alive!" 1210 01:52:00,422 --> 01:52:02,840 --> "What do you mean, they're not alive? How could they...? 1211 01:52:02,966 --> 01:52:07,553 --> "How could they kill, how could they gas so many people at once?" 1212 01:52:07,679 --> 01:52:10,973 --> But they had their way how to do it. 1213 01:52:19,983 --> 01:52:24,611 --> (Glazar) All I could think of then was my friend Carel Unger. 1214 01:52:26,322 --> 01:52:29,908 --> He'd been at the rear of the train, 1215 01:52:30,034 --> 01:52:34,830 --> in a section that had been uncoupled and left outside. 1216 01:52:36,666 --> 01:52:41,587 --> I needed someone. Near me. With me. 1217 01:52:45,049 --> 01:52:49,052 --> Then I saw him. He was in the 2nd group. 1218 01:52:49,179 --> 01:52:51,847 --> He'd been spared too. 1219 01:52:54,559 --> 01:52:59,772 --> On the way, somehow, he had learned, he already knew. 1220 01:52:59,898 --> 01:53:02,524 --> He looked at me, 1221 01:53:03,943 --> 01:53:09,823 --> all he said was, "Richard, my father, mother, brother..." 1222 01:53:11,785 --> 01:53:14,995 --> He had learned on the way there. 1223 01:53:17,749 --> 01:53:21,460 --> (Lanzmann) Your meeting with Carel, 1224 01:53:21,586 --> 01:53:25,255 --> how long after your arrival did it happen? 1225 01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:33,514 --> It was... around 20 minutes after we reached Treblinka. 1226 01:53:40,563 --> 01:53:43,649 --> Then I left the barracks 1227 01:53:43,775 --> 01:53:48,695 --> and had my first look at the vast space 1228 01:53:49,447 --> 01:53:56,620 --> that I soon learned was called "the sorting place." 1229 01:53:57,789 --> 01:54:03,168 --> It was buried under mountains of objects of all kinds. 1230 01:54:03,920 --> 01:54:08,549 --> Mountains of shoes, of clothes, 30 feet high. 1231 01:54:11,344 --> 01:54:15,264 --> I thought about it and said to Carel, 1232 01:54:15,390 --> 01:54:18,559 --> "It's a hurricane, a raging sea. 1233 01:54:18,685 --> 01:54:22,729 --> "We're shipwrecked. And we're still alive. 1234 01:54:22,856 --> 01:54:25,274 --> "We must do nothing 1235 01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:28,569 --> "but watch for every new wave, 1236 01:54:28,695 --> 01:54:31,738 --> "float on it, 1237 01:54:31,865 --> 01:54:37,744 --> "get ready for the next wave, 1238 01:54:37,871 --> 01:54:39,913 --> "and ride the wave at all costs. 1239 01:54:40,039 --> 01:54:42,499 --> "And nothing else." 1240 01:54:45,295 --> 01:54:48,338 --> That's how the day went through, 1241 01:54:49,257 --> 01:54:51,383 --> without anything. 1242 01:54:51,509 --> 01:54:53,302 --> No drinking. 1243 01:54:53,428 --> 01:54:57,180 --> We were 24 hours without water, without anything. 1244 01:54:57,307 --> 01:54:58,807 --> We couldn't drink. 1245 01:54:58,933 --> 01:55:02,311 --> We couldn't have anything taken into our mouths, 1246 01:55:02,437 --> 01:55:04,813 --> because it was impossible. 1247 01:55:04,939 --> 01:55:07,608 --> Just the meaning that before... 1248 01:55:07,734 --> 01:55:09,735 --> a minute, an hour before, 1249 01:55:09,861 --> 01:55:11,778 --> you were part of a family, 1250 01:55:11,905 --> 01:55:14,990 --> you were part of a wife or a husband, 1251 01:55:15,116 --> 01:55:19,953 --> and now, all of a sudden, everything is dead. 1252 01:55:21,247 --> 01:55:23,832 --> We went into a special barrack, 1253 01:55:24,667 --> 01:55:28,503 --> where I was sleeping right next to the wall. 1254 01:55:29,672 --> 01:55:33,425 --> And over there, that night, 1255 01:55:33,551 --> 01:55:36,762 --> it was the most horrible night for all the people, 1256 01:55:37,764 --> 01:55:40,223 --> because the memory of all those things, 1257 01:55:40,350 --> 01:55:43,226 --> what people went through with each other, 1258 01:55:43,353 --> 01:55:44,937 --> all the joys and the happiness, 1259 01:55:45,063 --> 01:55:48,523 --> and the births and the weddings and other things, 1260 01:55:48,650 --> 01:55:51,068 --> and all of a sudden, in one second, 1261 01:55:51,194 --> 01:55:54,071 --> to cut that through without anything, 1262 01:55:54,197 --> 01:55:56,448 --> and without any guilt of the people, 1263 01:55:56,574 --> 01:55:58,575 --> because the people were not guilty at all. 1264 01:55:58,701 --> 01:56:02,704 --> The only guilt from them was because they were Jewish people. 1265 01:56:05,333 --> 01:56:09,086 --> Most of us, we were all up at night, 1266 01:56:09,212 --> 01:56:13,131 --> trying to talk to each other, which was not allowed. 1267 01:56:13,257 --> 01:56:16,468 --> The commandant was sleeping in the same barrack. 1268 01:56:16,594 --> 01:56:19,137 --> We were not allowed to talk to each other 1269 01:56:19,263 --> 01:56:24,935 --> or to express our view or our minds to each other 1270 01:56:25,770 --> 01:56:30,023 --> until the morning, at 5:00, 1271 01:56:31,109 --> 01:56:35,612 --> we start going out from the barracks. 1272 01:56:37,281 --> 01:56:38,949 --> In the morning, 1273 01:56:39,993 --> 01:56:44,788 --> when they had an Appelle to go out from the barracks, 1274 01:56:44,914 --> 01:56:46,707 --> from our group, 1275 01:56:46,833 --> 01:56:51,753 --> I would say at least four or five were dead. 1276 01:56:52,588 --> 01:56:55,882 --> I don't know how the thing happened that, what? 1277 01:56:56,009 --> 01:57:02,681 --> They must have with them some kind of... some kind of poison 1278 01:57:02,807 --> 01:57:04,891 --> in which they poisoned themselves. 1279 01:57:05,018 --> 01:57:07,102 --> Some of them there, 1280 01:57:07,228 --> 01:57:10,313 --> I would say at least of them were my friends, 1281 01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:12,691 --> two of my close friends. 1282 01:57:12,817 --> 01:57:14,818 --> They didn't say anything. 1283 01:57:14,944 --> 01:57:18,155 --> We didn't even know that they have with them poison. 1284 01:57:23,119 --> 01:57:26,413 --> (Glazar in German) Greenery, sand everywhere else. 1285 01:57:26,539 --> 01:57:29,666 --> At night, we were put into barracks. 1286 01:57:29,792 --> 01:57:31,710 --> It just had a sand floor. 1287 01:57:31,836 --> 01:57:34,296 --> Nothing else. 1288 01:57:34,756 --> 01:57:40,177 --> Each of us simply dropped where he stood. 1289 01:57:40,928 --> 01:57:47,184 --> Half asleep, I heard some men hang themselves. 1290 01:57:47,310 --> 01:57:51,521 --> We didn't react then. It was almost normal. 1291 01:57:52,940 --> 01:57:54,983 --> Just as it was normal 1292 01:57:55,109 --> 01:58:02,657 --> that for everyone behind whom the gate of Treblinka closed, 1293 01:58:03,117 --> 01:58:07,079 --> there was death, had to be death, 1294 01:58:07,205 --> 01:58:14,044 --> for no one was supposed to be left to bear witness. 1295 01:58:15,838 --> 01:58:19,925 --> I already knew that, 1296 01:58:20,051 --> 01:58:25,597 --> three hours after arriving at Treblinka. 1297 01:58:39,904 --> 01:58:43,573 --> (j& Man sings in German: "Mandolinen um Mitternacht") 1298 02:00:26,594 --> 02:00:28,595 --> BERLIN 1299 02:00:29,764 --> 02:00:32,641 --> (Woman) This is no longer home, you see? 1300 02:00:33,893 --> 02:00:36,978 --> And, especially, it's no longer home 1301 02:00:37,104 --> 02:00:41,566 --> when they start telling me that they didn't know, they didn't know. 1302 02:00:41,692 --> 02:00:43,401 --> They say they didn't see. 1303 02:00:43,527 --> 02:00:45,654 --> "Yes, there were Jews living in our house. 1304 02:00:45,780 --> 02:00:47,572 --> "One day, they were no longer there. 1305 02:00:47,698 --> 02:00:50,116 --> "We didn't know what happened." 1306 02:00:51,118 --> 02:00:55,163 --> They couldn't help seeing it. It was not a matter of one action. 1307 02:00:55,289 --> 02:00:59,918 --> These were actions that were taking place over almost two years. 1308 02:01:00,544 --> 02:01:04,714 --> There was always... Every fortnight people were torn out of the houses. 1309 02:01:04,840 --> 02:01:08,176 --> How could they escape it? How could they not see it? 1310 02:01:10,388 --> 02:01:14,349 --> I remember that day on which they made Berlin judenrein. 1311 02:01:14,475 --> 02:01:18,270 --> The people hastened in the streets. They didn't want to be in the street. 1312 02:01:18,396 --> 02:01:21,606 --> You could see the streets were absolutely empty. 1313 02:01:22,358 --> 02:01:24,192 --> They didn't want to look, you know? 1314 02:01:24,318 --> 02:01:26,695 --> They sort of hastened to buy what they had to buy. 1315 02:01:26,821 --> 02:01:30,240 --> It was Saturday, and they had to buy something for the Sunday, you see? 1316 02:01:30,366 --> 02:01:34,869 --> So they went shopping and hastened back into their houses. 1317 02:01:41,711 --> 02:01:43,962 --> And I remember this day very vividly, 1318 02:01:44,088 --> 02:01:47,799 --> because we saw police cars 1319 02:01:47,925 --> 02:01:51,469 --> rushing through the streets of Berlin, 1320 02:01:51,595 --> 02:01:54,597 --> taking people out of the houses. 1321 02:01:55,099 --> 02:01:58,059 --> They had herded together from factories, from the houses, 1322 02:01:58,185 --> 02:02:00,353 --> wherever they could find the Jews, 1323 02:02:00,479 --> 02:02:05,275 --> and had put them into something that was called Klu. 1324 02:02:05,401 --> 02:02:10,780 --> Klu was a dance restaurant, a very big one. 1325 02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:15,702 --> From there, they were deported in various transports. 1326 02:02:16,871 --> 02:02:18,872 --> They were going off not far from here, 1327 02:02:18,998 --> 02:02:21,916 --> on one of the tracks of the Bahnhof Grunewald. 1328 02:02:25,171 --> 02:02:28,757 --> And this was a day when I felt so... 1329 02:02:28,883 --> 02:02:31,259 --> suddenly so utterly alone, 1330 02:02:31,385 --> 02:02:34,512 --> so utterly left alone... 1331 02:02:38,893 --> 02:02:43,104 --> ...because now I knew we would be one of the very few people left. 1332 02:02:43,230 --> 02:02:46,900 --> I didn't know how many more would be underground. 1333 02:02:56,702 --> 02:03:01,539 --> And this was a day when I felt very guilty that I didn't go myself, 1334 02:03:01,665 --> 02:03:08,171 --> that I tried to escape a fate that the others could not escape. 1335 02:03:09,757 --> 02:03:15,804 --> There was no more warmth around, no more soul akin to us, you understand? 1336 02:03:15,930 --> 02:03:17,389 --> And we talked about this. 1337 02:03:17,515 --> 02:03:20,850 --> "What happened to Elsa, and what happened to Hans?" 1338 02:03:20,976 --> 02:03:24,312 --> "Where is he, and where is she? Do you know this?" 1339 02:03:24,438 --> 02:03:26,606 --> "My God, what happened to the child?" 1340 02:03:26,732 --> 02:03:30,568 --> You know, these were our talks on that horrible day. 1341 02:03:30,694 --> 02:03:36,282 --> This feeling of being terribly alone and terribly guilty that we did not go... 1342 02:03:36,409 --> 02:03:39,702 --> - (Lanzmann) Guilty? - That we did not go with them. 1343 02:03:41,163 --> 02:03:43,164 --> (Man shouting in German) 1344 02:03:54,718 --> 02:03:57,387 --> Why did we try? Why? Why? 1345 02:03:57,513 --> 02:03:59,389 --> What made us do this, 1346 02:03:59,515 --> 02:04:02,100 --> to escape a fate that was really our destiny 1347 02:04:02,226 --> 02:04:04,519 --> or the destiny of our people? 1348 02:04:04,645 --> 02:04:08,648 --> INGE DEUTSCHKRON BORN IN BERLIN 1349 02:04:08,774 --> 02:04:12,861 --> LIVED THERE THROUGH THE WAR 1350 02:04:12,987 --> 02:04:17,240 --> IN HIDING BEGINNING IN FEBRUARY 1943 1351 02:04:17,366 --> 02:04:20,368 --> NOW LIVES IN ISRAEL 1352 02:04:54,153 --> 02:04:57,780 --> FRANZ SUCHOMEL: SS Unterscharführer 1353 02:04:59,992 --> 02:05:03,786 --> (Lanzmann in German) Are you ready? (Suchomel in German) Yes. 1354 02:05:03,913 --> 02:05:06,331 --> - (Lanzmann) Then we can... - We can begin. 1355 02:05:06,457 --> 02:05:08,458 --> (Lanzmann) We can begin. 1356 02:05:10,294 --> 02:05:14,506 --> (Lanzmann) How's your heart? Is everything in order? 1357 02:05:15,716 --> 02:05:18,593 --> (Suchomel) Oh, my heart... For the moment, it's all right. 1358 02:05:18,719 --> 02:05:22,305 --> If I have any pain, I'll tell you. 1359 02:05:22,431 --> 02:05:25,767 --> - We'll have to break off. - (Lanzmann) Of course. 1360 02:05:27,811 --> 02:05:30,230 --> But your health, in general, is... 1361 02:05:30,356 --> 02:05:34,108 --> (Suchomel) The weather today suits me fine. 1362 02:05:34,235 --> 02:05:38,863 --> The barometric pressure is high. That's good for me. 1363 02:05:38,989 --> 02:05:43,826 --> (Lanzmann) You look to be in good shape, anyway. 1364 02:05:43,953 --> 02:05:49,082 --> - Let's begin with Treblinka. - Certainly. 1365 02:05:49,208 --> 02:05:51,459 --> (Lanzmann) I think that's best. 1366 02:05:51,585 --> 02:05:55,755 --> If you could give us... 1367 02:05:57,299 --> 02:06:01,177 --> ...a description of Treblinka. 1368 02:06:01,887 --> 02:06:05,265 --> How did it look when you arrived? 1369 02:06:05,391 --> 02:06:10,436 --> - I believe you got there in August? - Mid-August. 1370 02:06:10,563 --> 02:06:14,399 --> - Was it August 20 or 24? - 18th. 1371 02:06:14,525 --> 02:06:17,485 --> - The 18th? - I don't know exactly. 1372 02:06:17,611 --> 02:06:20,947 --> Around August 20. 1373 02:06:21,073 --> 02:06:22,073 --> (Lanzmann) Yes. 1374 02:06:22,199 --> 02:06:26,160 --> (Suchomel) I arrived there with seven other men. 1375 02:06:26,787 --> 02:06:29,706 --> - (Lanzmann) From Berlin? - From Berlin. 1376 02:06:29,832 --> 02:06:31,666 --> (Lanzmann) From Lublin? 1377 02:06:32,334 --> 02:06:36,337 --> (Suchomel) From Berlin to Warsaw, from Warsaw to Lublin, 1378 02:06:36,463 --> 02:06:42,010 --> from Lublin back to Warsaw and from Warsaw to Treblinka. 1379 02:06:42,136 --> 02:06:46,472 --> (Lanzmann) What was Treblinka like then? 1380 02:06:47,141 --> 02:06:52,061 --> Treblinka then was operating at full capacity. 1381 02:06:52,646 --> 02:06:55,315 --> - Full capacity? - Full capacity. 1382 02:06:56,984 --> 02:06:59,319 --> Trains arrived... 1383 02:07:00,613 --> 02:07:04,699 --> The Warsaw ghetto was being emptied then. 1384 02:07:04,825 --> 02:07:06,200 --> Yes. 1385 02:07:06,827 --> 02:07:13,416 --> Three trains arrived in two days... 1386 02:07:14,960 --> 02:07:22,091 --> ...each with three, four, five thousand people aboard, 1387 02:07:23,052 --> 02:07:25,553 --> all from Warsaw. 1388 02:07:26,221 --> 02:07:31,392 --> But at the same time, other trains came in 1389 02:07:32,269 --> 02:07:37,065 --> from Kielce and other places. 1390 02:07:38,067 --> 02:07:41,277 --> So three trains arrived, 1391 02:07:42,237 --> 02:07:48,451 --> and since the offensive against Stalingrad was in fear, 1392 02:07:48,577 --> 02:07:53,498 --> the trainloads of Jews were left on a station siding. 1393 02:07:54,458 --> 02:08:00,296 --> What's more, the cars were French, 1394 02:08:00,422 --> 02:08:02,799 --> made of steel. 1395 02:08:02,925 --> 02:08:09,138 --> So that while 5,000 Jews arrived in Treblinka, 1396 02:08:09,765 --> 02:08:12,517 --> 3,000 were dead. 1397 02:08:13,185 --> 02:08:15,311 --> In the cars. 1398 02:08:15,437 --> 02:08:17,980 --> They had slashed their wrists, 1399 02:08:19,858 --> 02:08:22,735 --> or just died. 1400 02:08:25,364 --> 02:08:29,701 --> The ones we unloaded were half-dead 1401 02:08:29,827 --> 02:08:34,789 --> and... half-mad. 1402 02:08:37,084 --> 02:08:42,922 --> In the other trains from Kielce 1403 02:08:43,048 --> 02:08:45,550 --> and elsewhere, 1404 02:08:46,260 --> 02:08:49,053 --> at least halfwere dead. 1405 02:08:50,013 --> 02:08:54,142 --> We stacked them here, here, 1406 02:08:56,186 --> 02:08:58,271 --> here and here. 1407 02:08:58,856 --> 02:09:01,733 --> Thousands of people 1408 02:09:02,735 --> 02:09:05,945 --> piled one on top of another. 1409 02:09:08,073 --> 02:09:10,408 --> - (Lanzmann) On the ramp? - On the ramp. 1410 02:09:11,076 --> 02:09:14,495 --> Stacked like wood. 1411 02:09:14,621 --> 02:09:15,830 --> In addition, 1412 02:09:15,956 --> 02:09:21,669 --> other Jews, still alive, waited there for two days. 1413 02:09:21,795 --> 02:09:26,132 --> The small gas chambers could no longer handle the number. 1414 02:09:26,258 --> 02:09:33,139 --> They functioned day and night in that period. 1415 02:09:33,265 --> 02:09:38,060 --> Can you please describe, very precisely, 1416 02:09:38,187 --> 02:09:42,231 --> your first impression of Treblinka? 1417 02:09:42,357 --> 02:09:46,194 --> Very precisely. It's very important. 1418 02:09:46,320 --> 02:09:50,823 --> My first impression of Treblinka, 1419 02:09:51,450 --> 02:09:57,497 --> and that of some of the other men, was catastrophic. 1420 02:09:58,415 --> 02:10:01,375 --> For we had not been told 1421 02:10:02,211 --> 02:10:07,632 --> how and what... that people were being killed there. 1422 02:10:07,758 --> 02:10:09,258 --> They hadn't told us. 1423 02:10:09,384 --> 02:10:11,511 --> - You didn't know? - No. 1424 02:10:12,137 --> 02:10:14,680 --> That's incredible. 1425 02:10:14,807 --> 02:10:18,851 --> But true. I didn't want to go. 1426 02:10:19,770 --> 02:10:22,438 --> - That was proved at my trial. - Yes. 1427 02:10:22,564 --> 02:10:24,816 --> I was told, 1428 02:10:24,942 --> 02:10:26,859 --> "Mr. Suchomel, 1429 02:10:27,528 --> 02:10:31,781 --> "there are big workshops there for tailors and shoemakers, 1430 02:10:31,907 --> 02:10:34,325 --> "and you'll be guarding them." 1431 02:10:34,451 --> 02:10:35,993 --> - Yes. - Nothing more. 1432 02:10:36,119 --> 02:10:39,914 --> But you knew it was a camp? 1433 02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:42,667 --> Yes, we were told, 1434 02:10:42,793 --> 02:10:49,006 --> "The Führer ordered a resettlement program. 1435 02:10:49,132 --> 02:10:52,885 --> "That's an order from the Führer." 1436 02:10:53,011 --> 02:10:54,762 --> - Understand? - Resettlement program... 1437 02:10:54,888 --> 02:10:58,224 --> A resettlement program. 1438 02:10:59,101 --> 02:11:01,978 --> No one ever spoke of killing. 1439 02:11:02,104 --> 02:11:04,856 --> (Lanzmann) I understand. 1440 02:11:04,982 --> 02:11:09,193 --> Mr. Suchomel, we're not discussing you, 1441 02:11:09,319 --> 02:11:11,237 --> only Treblinka. 1442 02:11:11,363 --> 02:11:14,740 --> You are a very important eyewitness, 1443 02:11:14,867 --> 02:11:19,662 --> and you can explain what Treblinka was. 1444 02:11:19,788 --> 02:11:25,877 --> - (Suchomel) But don't use my name. - No, I promise. 1445 02:11:26,003 --> 02:11:27,962 --> (Suchomel mutters) 1446 02:11:28,088 --> 02:11:31,090 --> (Lanzmann) All right, you've arrived at Treblinka. 1447 02:11:31,216 --> 02:11:37,889 --> (Suchomel) So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camp 1448 02:11:40,100 --> 02:11:43,728 --> From end to end. 1449 02:11:45,981 --> 02:11:49,734 --> Just as we went by, 1450 02:11:49,860 --> 02:11:55,489 --> they were opening the gas chamber doors, 1451 02:11:55,616 --> 02:12:00,202 --> and people fell out like potatoes. 1452 02:12:03,540 --> 02:12:08,544 --> Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. 1453 02:12:09,046 --> 02:12:13,633 --> We went back and sat down on our suitcases 1454 02:12:13,759 --> 02:12:17,219 --> and cried like old women. 1455 02:12:21,725 --> 02:12:26,395 --> Each day, 100 Jews were chosen 1456 02:12:27,022 --> 02:12:31,067 --> to drag the corpses to the mass graves. 1457 02:12:32,402 --> 02:12:40,402 --> In the evening, the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers 1458 02:12:40,535 --> 02:12:42,119 --> or shot them. 1459 02:12:42,245 --> 02:12:43,996 --> Every day. 1460 02:12:46,458 --> 02:12:49,669 --> It was in the hottest days of August. 1461 02:12:53,131 --> 02:12:58,052 --> The ground undulated like waves 1462 02:12:58,178 --> 02:12:59,887 --> because of the gas. 1463 02:13:00,013 --> 02:13:02,556 --> - (Lanzmann) From the bodies? - Yes. 1464 02:13:02,683 --> 02:13:08,104 --> Bear in mind, the graves were maybe 18, 20 feet deep. 1465 02:13:08,230 --> 02:13:12,650 --> All crammed with bodies. 1466 02:13:13,443 --> 02:13:17,989 --> A thin layer of sand and the heat. You see? 1467 02:13:18,115 --> 02:13:20,366 --> It was hell up there. 1468 02:13:20,492 --> 02:13:25,746 --> - (Lanzmann) You saw that? - Yes, just once, the first day. 1469 02:13:25,872 --> 02:13:28,833 --> We puked and wept. 1470 02:13:28,959 --> 02:13:31,585 --> - You wept? - We wept too, yes. 1471 02:13:35,882 --> 02:13:38,759 --> - The smell was infernal. - Infernal? 1472 02:13:38,885 --> 02:13:43,097 --> Yes, because gas was constantly escaping. 1473 02:13:43,223 --> 02:13:47,852 --> It stank horribly, for miles around. 1474 02:13:47,978 --> 02:13:50,146 --> - Miles? - Miles! 1475 02:13:50,272 --> 02:13:53,107 --> - You could smell it all around? - All around! 1476 02:13:53,233 --> 02:13:55,234 --> Not just in the camp? 1477 02:13:55,360 --> 02:13:59,488 --> Everywhere. It depended on the wind. 1478 02:13:59,614 --> 02:14:02,575 --> The stink was carried on the wind. 1479 02:14:03,577 --> 02:14:05,494 --> Understand? 1480 02:14:13,628 --> 02:14:17,840 --> (Suchomel) More people kept coming, always more, 1481 02:14:17,966 --> 02:14:21,802 --> whom we hadn't the facilities to kill. 1482 02:14:27,684 --> 02:14:33,022 --> Those gents were in a rush to clean out the Warsaw ghetto. 1483 02:14:36,359 --> 02:14:40,321 --> The gas chambers couldn't handle the load. 1484 02:14:40,447 --> 02:14:42,990 --> The small gas chambers. 1485 02:14:59,549 --> 02:15:03,094 --> The Jews had to wait their turn 1486 02:15:03,220 --> 02:15:07,723 --> for a day, 2 days, 3 days. 1487 02:15:14,022 --> 02:15:16,398 --> They foresaw what was coming. 1488 02:15:17,526 --> 02:15:20,069 --> They foresaw it. 1489 02:15:21,404 --> 02:15:26,742 --> They may not have been certain, but many knew. 1490 02:15:31,581 --> 02:15:36,210 --> There were Jewish women 1491 02:15:36,753 --> 02:15:40,673 --> who slashed their daughters' wrists at night, 1492 02:15:40,799 --> 02:15:44,135 --> then cut their own. 1493 02:15:44,928 --> 02:15:47,638 --> Others poisoned themselves. 1494 02:15:48,932 --> 02:15:54,478 --> They heard the engine feeding the gas chamber. 1495 02:15:57,607 --> 02:16:02,194 --> A tank engine was used in that gas chamber. 1496 02:16:03,989 --> 02:16:09,535 --> At Treblinka, the only gas used was engine exhaust. 1497 02:16:09,995 --> 02:16:12,413 --> Zyklon gas, that was Auschwitz. 1498 02:16:19,087 --> 02:16:22,923 --> Because of the delay, 1499 02:16:23,675 --> 02:16:28,470 --> Eberl, the camp commandant, 1500 02:16:29,431 --> 02:16:33,767 --> phoned Lublin and said, 1501 02:16:34,519 --> 02:16:38,647 --> "We can't go on this way. I can't do it any longer. 1502 02:16:38,773 --> 02:16:42,943 --> "We have to break off." 1503 02:16:43,069 --> 02:16:46,780 --> Overnight, Wirth arrived. 1504 02:16:47,908 --> 02:16:51,619 --> He inspected everything and then left. 1505 02:16:51,745 --> 02:16:55,873 --> He returned with people from Belzec, 1506 02:16:55,999 --> 02:16:58,334 --> experts. 1507 02:16:59,502 --> 02:17:04,131 --> Wirth arranged to suspend the trains. 1508 02:17:06,676 --> 02:17:11,680 --> The corpses lying there were cleared away. 1509 02:17:13,183 --> 02:17:17,811 --> That was the period of the old gas chambers. 1510 02:17:18,355 --> 02:17:23,400 --> Because there were so many dead 1511 02:17:23,526 --> 02:17:26,278 --> that couldn't be gotten rid of, 1512 02:17:26,863 --> 02:17:31,116 --> for days and days, 1513 02:17:32,452 --> 02:17:37,581 --> the bodies piled up around the gas chambers. 1514 02:17:38,875 --> 02:17:43,254 --> Under this pile of bodies was a cesspool, 1515 02:17:44,005 --> 02:17:48,592 --> three inches deep, full of blood, worms... 1516 02:17:50,220 --> 02:17:52,429 --> ...and shit. 1517 02:17:54,641 --> 02:17:58,560 --> - Where? - In front of the gas chamber. 1518 02:18:00,397 --> 02:18:03,148 --> No one wanted to clean it out. 1519 02:18:03,275 --> 02:18:07,319 --> The Jews preferred to be shot 1520 02:18:08,446 --> 02:18:11,282 --> rather than work there. 1521 02:18:11,950 --> 02:18:14,451 --> - Preferred to be shot? - To be shot. 1522 02:18:17,289 --> 02:18:23,210 --> It was awful. Burying their own people, seeing it all... 1523 02:18:23,336 --> 02:18:27,715 --> The dead flesh came off in their hands. 1524 02:18:28,800 --> 02:18:31,885 --> So Wirth went there himself 1525 02:18:32,929 --> 02:18:34,930 --> with a few Germans 1526 02:18:36,683 --> 02:18:40,686 --> and he had long belts rigged up 1527 02:18:41,146 --> 02:18:45,691 --> that were wrapped around the dead torsos to pull them. 1528 02:18:45,817 --> 02:18:48,235 --> - Who did that? - The SS men. 1529 02:18:48,361 --> 02:18:50,404 --> - Wirth? - SS men and Jews. 1530 02:18:50,530 --> 02:18:52,990 --> - SS men and Jews? - And Jews. 1531 02:18:53,116 --> 02:18:56,035 --> - But Jews too? - Jews too! 1532 02:18:57,996 --> 02:19:02,249 --> What did the Germans do? 1533 02:19:02,375 --> 02:19:05,586 --> They forced the Jews to... 1534 02:19:05,712 --> 02:19:07,921 --> They beat them? 1535 02:19:08,048 --> 02:19:13,469 --> Or they themselves helped with the clean-up. 1536 02:19:13,595 --> 02:19:16,597 --> Which Germans did that? 1537 02:19:18,099 --> 02:19:24,271 --> Some of our guards who were assigned up there. 1538 02:19:26,941 --> 02:19:31,653 --> - The Germans themselves? - They had to. 1539 02:19:32,113 --> 02:19:33,530 --> They were in command. 1540 02:19:33,656 --> 02:19:39,078 --> They were in command, but they were also commanded. 1541 02:19:39,204 --> 02:19:42,081 --> (Lanzmann) I think the Jews did it. 1542 02:19:43,917 --> 02:19:49,838 --> In that case, the Germans had to lend a hand. 1543 02:19:51,674 --> 02:19:55,719 --> THE BLACK EXECUTION WALL IN THE COURTYARD OF BLOCK II 1544 02:19:57,847 --> 02:20:01,975 --> AT AUSCHWITZ I, THE ORIGINAL CAMP 1545 02:20:04,562 --> 02:20:08,524 --> (Lanzmann in German) Filip, on that Sunday in May 71942, 1546 02:20:08,650 --> 02:20:15,239 --> when you first entered the Auschwitz crematorium, 1547 02:20:15,365 --> 02:20:17,366 --> how old were you? 1548 02:20:18,243 --> 02:20:20,035 --> (Filip) Twenty. 1549 02:20:27,544 --> 02:20:30,546 --> It was a Sunday in May. 1550 02:20:38,221 --> 02:20:43,600 --> We were locked in an underground cell in Block 11. 1551 02:20:45,145 --> 02:20:47,896 --> We were held in secret. 1552 02:20:52,193 --> 02:20:55,904 --> Then some SS men appeared 1553 02:20:57,740 --> 02:21:02,578 --> and marched us along a street in the camp. 1554 02:21:12,881 --> 02:21:16,967 --> We went through a gate, 1555 02:21:23,433 --> 02:21:26,185 --> and around 300 feet away, 1556 02:21:27,145 --> 02:21:29,646 --> 300 feet from the gate, 1557 02:21:30,231 --> 02:21:33,859 --> I suddenly saw a building. 1558 02:21:33,985 --> 02:21:39,698 --> It had a flat roof, and a smokestack. 1559 02:21:48,625 --> 02:21:51,710 --> I saw a door in the rear. 1560 02:21:55,548 --> 02:22:01,220 --> I thought they were taking us to be shot. 1561 02:22:03,515 --> 02:22:06,600 --> FILIP MULLER - CZECH JEW 1562 02:22:06,726 --> 02:22:11,605 --> SURVIVOR OF FIVE LIQUIDATIONS OF AUSCHWITZ "SPECIAL DETAIL" 1563 02:22:14,400 --> 02:22:18,278 --> Suddenly, before a door, 1564 02:22:19,447 --> 02:22:25,077 --> under a lamp in the middle of this building, 1565 02:22:25,203 --> 02:22:30,332 --> a young SS man told us, 1566 02:22:30,458 --> 02:22:33,544 --> "Inside, filthy swine!" 1567 02:22:33,670 --> 02:22:37,339 --> We entered a corridor. 1568 02:22:38,633 --> 02:22:41,510 --> They drove us along it. 1569 02:22:53,189 --> 02:22:59,194 --> Right away, the stench, the smoke choked me. 1570 02:23:08,830 --> 02:23:11,582 --> They kept on chasing us, 1571 02:23:12,875 --> 02:23:17,254 --> and then I made out the shapes 1572 02:23:18,256 --> 02:23:21,758 --> of the first two ovens. 1573 02:23:26,889 --> 02:23:31,476 --> Between the ovens, some Jewish prisoners were working. 1574 02:23:37,233 --> 02:23:42,321 --> We were in the crematorium's incineration chamber 1575 02:23:42,780 --> 02:23:45,616 --> in Camp I at Auschwitz. 1576 02:23:52,123 --> 02:23:53,665 --> From there, 1577 02:23:54,167 --> 02:24:00,255 --> they herded us to another big room, 1578 02:24:04,510 --> 02:24:09,806 --> and told us to undress the corpses. 1579 02:24:12,518 --> 02:24:14,978 --> I looked around me. 1580 02:24:18,107 --> 02:24:21,693 --> There were hundreds of bodies, 1581 02:24:23,112 --> 02:24:25,489 --> all dressed. 1582 02:24:27,158 --> 02:24:29,910 --> Piled with the corpses 1583 02:24:31,204 --> 02:24:34,289 --> were suitcases, bundles 1584 02:24:34,999 --> 02:24:37,084 --> and, scattered everywhere, 1585 02:24:37,669 --> 02:24:41,755 --> strange, bluish-purple crystals. 1586 02:24:41,881 --> 02:24:45,133 --> I couldn't understand any of it. 1587 02:24:52,433 --> 02:24:58,480 --> It was like a blow to the head, as if you'd been stunned. 1588 02:24:58,606 --> 02:25:01,817 --> I didn't even know where I was. 1589 02:25:01,943 --> 02:25:04,569 --> Above all, I couldn't understand 1590 02:25:04,696 --> 02:25:08,949 --> how they managed to kill so many people at once. 1591 02:25:11,494 --> 02:25:14,913 --> When we undressed some of them, 1592 02:25:15,039 --> 02:25:18,959 --> the order was given to feed the ovens. 1593 02:25:23,464 --> 02:25:28,093 --> Suddenly, an SS man rushed up and told me, 1594 02:25:28,219 --> 02:25:31,847 --> "Get out of here! Go and stir the bodies!" 1595 02:25:31,973 --> 02:25:36,435 --> What did he mean, "Stir the bodies"? 1596 02:25:36,978 --> 02:25:41,523 --> I entered the cremation chamber. 1597 02:25:41,649 --> 02:25:46,236 --> There was a Jewish prisoner, 1598 02:25:46,362 --> 02:25:50,449 --> Fischel, who later became a squad leader. 1599 02:25:50,950 --> 02:25:52,701 --> He looked at me, 1600 02:25:53,369 --> 02:25:59,916 --> and I watched him poke the fire with a long rod. 1601 02:26:00,501 --> 02:26:04,212 --> He told me, "Do as I'm doing 1602 02:26:04,338 --> 02:26:07,507 --> "or the SS will kill you." 1603 02:26:08,134 --> 02:26:11,678 --> I picked up a poker 1604 02:26:11,804 --> 02:26:14,473 --> and did as he was doing. 1605 02:26:14,599 --> 02:26:16,892 --> (Lanzmann) A poker? 1606 02:26:17,018 --> 02:26:18,977 --> A steel poker. 1607 02:26:20,062 --> 02:26:23,440 --> I obeyed Fischel's order. 1608 02:26:23,566 --> 02:26:28,612 --> At that point, I was in shock as if I'd been hypnotised, 1609 02:26:29,363 --> 02:26:35,118 --> and ready to do 1610 02:26:35,244 --> 02:26:37,704 --> whatever I was told. 1611 02:26:37,830 --> 02:26:44,544 --> I was so mindless, so horrified, 1612 02:26:44,670 --> 02:26:52,670 --> that I did everything Fischel told me. 1613 02:26:53,304 --> 02:26:56,306 --> So the ovens were fed, 1614 02:26:57,058 --> 02:27:00,852 --> but we were so inexperienced 1615 02:27:01,896 --> 02:27:09,896 --> that we left the fans on too long. 1616 02:27:10,613 --> 02:27:13,615 --> - The fans? - Yes. 1617 02:27:13,741 --> 02:27:18,036 --> There were fans to make the fire hotter. 1618 02:27:18,496 --> 02:27:22,415 --> They worked too long... 1619 02:27:22,542 --> 02:27:27,838 --> The firebrick suddenly exploded, 1620 02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:34,010 --> blocking the pipes 1621 02:27:34,136 --> 02:27:37,556 --> linking the Auschwitz crematorium 1622 02:27:38,349 --> 02:27:41,643 --> with the smokestack. 1623 02:27:43,563 --> 02:27:47,774 --> Cremation was interrupted. 1624 02:27:48,401 --> 02:27:52,070 --> The ovens were out of action. 1625 02:27:54,657 --> 02:27:59,411 --> That evening, some trucks came, 1626 02:27:59,537 --> 02:28:01,788 --> and we had to load the rest, 1627 02:28:01,914 --> 02:28:05,000 --> some 300 bodies, 1628 02:28:05,126 --> 02:28:08,003 --> into the trucks. 1629 02:28:08,129 --> 02:28:13,133 --> Then we were taken... 1630 02:28:15,136 --> 02:28:18,179 --> I still don't know where, 1631 02:28:18,306 --> 02:28:23,268 --> but probably to a field at Birkenau. 1632 02:28:27,565 --> 02:28:34,195 --> We were ordered to unload the bodies 1633 02:28:34,322 --> 02:28:40,702 --> and put them in a pit. 1634 02:28:41,287 --> 02:28:45,248 --> There was a ditch, an artificial pit. 1635 02:28:45,374 --> 02:28:48,877 --> Suddenly, water gushed up from underground 1636 02:28:49,003 --> 02:28:52,213 --> and swept the bodies down. 1637 02:28:57,678 --> 02:29:02,599 --> When night came, we had to stop that horrible work. 1638 02:29:03,559 --> 02:29:06,019 --> We were loaded into the trucks 1639 02:29:06,145 --> 02:29:10,565 --> and returned to Auschwitz. 1640 02:29:15,196 --> 02:29:17,030 --> The next day, 1641 02:29:17,156 --> 02:29:23,787 --> we were taken to the same place. 1642 02:29:31,379 --> 02:29:34,381 --> But the water had risen. 1643 02:29:36,050 --> 02:29:39,886 --> Some SS men came with a fire truck 1644 02:29:40,012 --> 02:29:43,515 --> and pumped out the water. 1645 02:29:44,767 --> 02:29:48,770 --> We had to go down into that muddy pit 1646 02:29:48,896 --> 02:29:52,607 --> to stack up the bodies. 1647 02:29:55,903 --> 02:29:57,612 --> But they were slimy. 1648 02:29:57,738 --> 02:30:02,117 --> For example, I grasped a woman, 1649 02:30:02,243 --> 02:30:04,536 --> but her hands... 1650 02:30:04,662 --> 02:30:06,955 --> Her hand was slippery, slimy. 1651 02:30:07,081 --> 02:30:09,666 --> I tried to pull her, 1652 02:30:09,792 --> 02:30:16,464 --> but I fell over backward, into the water, the mud. 1653 02:30:18,050 --> 02:30:20,510 --> It was the same for all of us. 1654 02:30:20,636 --> 02:30:26,683 --> Up above, at the edge of the pit, Aumeyer and Grabner yelled, 1655 02:30:26,809 --> 02:30:30,770 --> "Get cracking, you filth, you bastards! 1656 02:30:30,896 --> 02:30:35,525 --> "We'll show you, you bunch of shits!" 1657 02:30:35,651 --> 02:30:39,029 --> These were the names they were calling us. 1658 02:30:39,155 --> 02:30:41,156 --> And in these... 1659 02:30:46,620 --> 02:30:49,205 --> How shall I say? ...circumstances, 1660 02:30:50,624 --> 02:30:55,503 --> two of my friends couldn't take any more. 1661 02:30:55,629 --> 02:30:58,381 --> One was a French student. 1662 02:30:59,508 --> 02:31:03,678 --> - Jews? - All Jews. They were exhausted. 1663 02:31:06,724 --> 02:31:12,729 --> They just lay there... 1664 02:31:13,564 --> 02:31:16,608 --> in the mud. 1665 02:31:16,734 --> 02:31:20,612 --> Aumeyer called one of his SS men. 1666 02:31:20,738 --> 02:31:24,074 --> "Go on, finish off those swine!" 1667 02:31:27,536 --> 02:31:32,123 --> They were exhausted. And they were shot in the pit. 1668 02:31:38,089 --> 02:31:43,468 --> (Lanzmann) There was no crematorium at Birkenau then? 1669 02:31:44,178 --> 02:31:48,640 --> (Muller) No, there weren't any there yet. 1670 02:31:50,309 --> 02:31:53,311 --> Birkenau still wasn't completely set up. 1671 02:31:53,813 --> 02:31:59,234 --> Only Camp B 1, which was the late women is camp, existed. 1672 02:32:05,616 --> 02:32:09,369 --> It wasn't until the spring of 1943 1673 02:32:09,495 --> 02:32:14,999 --> that skilled workmen and unskilled labourers, all Jews, 1674 02:32:15,126 --> 02:32:17,669 --> must have gone to work here 1675 02:32:17,795 --> 02:32:21,005 --> and built the four crematoria. 1676 02:32:24,385 --> 02:32:27,595 --> Each crematorium had 15 ovens, 1677 02:32:28,722 --> 02:32:33,560 --> a big undressing room, around 3,000 square feet, 1678 02:32:34,395 --> 02:32:36,604 --> and a big gas chamber 1679 02:32:36,730 --> 02:32:41,359 --> where up to 3,000 people at once could be gassed. 1680 02:32:44,071 --> 02:32:45,488 --> TREBLINKA 1681 02:32:45,614 --> 02:32:50,910 --> (Suchomel) The new gas chambers were built in September 1942. 1682 02:32:51,412 --> 02:32:53,746 --> (Lanzmann) Who built them? 1683 02:32:54,248 --> 02:33:02,172 --> Hackenhold and Lambert supervised the Jews who did the work, 1684 02:33:02,298 --> 02:33:04,841 --> the bricklaying, at least. 1685 02:33:06,302 --> 02:33:12,599 --> Ukrainian carpenters made the doors. 1686 02:33:14,435 --> 02:33:18,104 --> The gas chamber doors themselves 1687 02:33:18,230 --> 02:33:22,317 --> were armoured bunker doors. 1688 02:33:22,443 --> 02:33:26,321 --> I think they were brought from Bialystok, 1689 02:33:26,447 --> 02:33:29,032 --> from some Russian bunkers. 1690 02:33:30,910 --> 02:33:32,952 --> FRANZ SUCHOMEL 1691 02:33:33,078 --> 02:33:37,207 --> What was the capacity of the new gas chambers? 1692 02:33:37,333 --> 02:33:39,918 --> - There were two of them, right? - Yes. 1693 02:33:40,044 --> 02:33:46,216 --> But the old ones hadn't been demolished. 1694 02:33:47,718 --> 02:33:52,013 --> When there were a lot of trains, a lot of people, 1695 02:33:52,139 --> 02:33:55,683 --> the old ovens were put back into service. 1696 02:33:57,311 --> 02:34:02,815 --> And here... the Jews say there were five on each side. 1697 02:34:02,942 --> 02:34:05,276 --> I say there were four, 1698 02:34:05,402 --> 02:34:07,612 --> but I'm not sure. 1699 02:34:07,738 --> 02:34:11,241 --> In any case, only the upper row, 1700 02:34:12,952 --> 02:34:14,869 --> on this side, 1701 02:34:15,746 --> 02:34:18,665 --> was in action. 1702 02:34:18,791 --> 02:34:21,125 --> (Lanzmann) Why not the other side? 1703 02:34:21,252 --> 02:34:27,966 --> (Suchomel) Disposing of the bodies would have been too complicated. 1704 02:34:28,676 --> 02:34:30,134 --> - Too far? - Yes. 1705 02:34:30,261 --> 02:34:35,848 --> Up there, Wirth had built the death camp, 1706 02:34:36,767 --> 02:34:43,189 --> assigning a detail of Jewish workers to it. 1707 02:34:43,983 --> 02:34:47,568 --> The detail had a fixed number in it, 1708 02:34:47,695 --> 02:34:50,863 --> around 200 people. 1709 02:34:51,865 --> 02:34:53,908 --> (Lanzmann speaks German) 1710 02:34:54,034 --> 02:34:58,079 --> (Suchomel) ...who worked only in the death camp. 1711 02:34:58,205 --> 02:35:03,084 --> (Lanzmann) But what was the capacity of the new gas chambers? 1712 02:35:03,210 --> 02:35:07,547 --> The new gas chambers... Let's see... 1713 02:35:08,382 --> 02:35:13,052 --> They could finish off 3,000 people in two hours. 1714 02:35:15,806 --> 02:35:20,977 --> (Lanzmann) How many people at once in a single gas chamber? 1715 02:35:21,103 --> 02:35:24,230 --> I can't say exactly. 1716 02:35:24,356 --> 02:35:26,733 --> The Jews say 200. 1717 02:35:27,276 --> 02:35:30,153 --> - 200? - That's right, 200. 1718 02:35:31,405 --> 02:35:37,118 --> Imagine a room this size. 1719 02:35:37,244 --> 02:35:39,495 --> (Lanzmann) They put more in at Auschwitz. 1720 02:35:39,621 --> 02:35:42,123 --> Auschwitz was a factory! 1721 02:35:44,084 --> 02:35:46,669 --> (Lanzmann) And Treblinka? 1722 02:35:46,795 --> 02:35:49,797 --> I'll give you my definition. 1723 02:35:50,632 --> 02:35:52,300 --> Keep this in mind. 1724 02:35:52,426 --> 02:35:58,014 --> Treblinka was a primitive, 1725 02:35:58,682 --> 02:36:05,146 --> but efficient production line of death. 1726 02:36:05,272 --> 02:36:08,066 --> - A production line? - Of death. 1727 02:36:09,026 --> 02:36:11,194 --> - Understand? - Yes. 1728 02:36:15,532 --> 02:36:19,744 --> - But primitive...? - Primitive, yes. 1729 02:36:20,871 --> 02:36:25,917 --> But it worked well, that production line of death. 1730 02:36:26,043 --> 02:36:29,212 --> Was Belzec even more rudimentary? 1731 02:36:29,338 --> 02:36:32,715 --> Belzec was the laboratory. 1732 02:36:32,841 --> 02:36:37,261 --> Wirth was camp commandant. 1733 02:36:38,597 --> 02:36:43,267 --> He tried everything imaginable there. 1734 02:36:44,269 --> 02:36:47,772 --> He got off on the wrong foot. 1735 02:36:47,898 --> 02:36:49,857 --> The pits were overflowing, 1736 02:36:49,983 --> 02:36:55,696 --> and the cesspool seeped out in front of the SS mess hall. 1737 02:36:55,823 --> 02:36:57,490 --> It stank... 1738 02:36:58,492 --> 02:37:01,911 --> in front of the mess-hall, in front of their barracks. 1739 02:37:02,037 --> 02:37:04,872 --> - Were you at Belzec? - No. 1740 02:37:05,499 --> 02:37:08,543 --> Wirth with his own men. 1741 02:37:09,169 --> 02:37:12,130 --> With Franz, with Oberhauser 1742 02:37:12,714 --> 02:37:14,424 --> and Hackenhold, 1743 02:37:14,550 --> 02:37:16,551 --> he tried everything there. 1744 02:37:17,553 --> 02:37:23,850 --> Those three had to put the bodies in the pits themselves 1745 02:37:24,893 --> 02:37:30,773 --> so that Wirth could see how much space he needed. 1746 02:37:31,775 --> 02:37:35,236 --> And when they rebelled... 1747 02:37:35,362 --> 02:37:36,529 --> Franz refused. 1748 02:37:36,655 --> 02:37:39,615 --> Wirth beat Franz with a whip. 1749 02:37:39,741 --> 02:37:42,452 --> He whipped Hackenhold, too. You see? 1750 02:37:42,578 --> 02:37:44,412 --> - Kurt Franz? - Kurt Franz. 1751 02:37:46,707 --> 02:37:48,374 --> That's how Wirth was. 1752 02:37:48,500 --> 02:37:52,128 --> Then, with that experience behind him, 1753 02:37:53,547 --> 02:37:55,089 --> he came to Treblinka. 1754 02:37:55,924 --> 02:37:57,925 --> (People chatting in German) 1755 02:38:24,745 --> 02:38:26,746 --> (Glasses clinking) 1756 02:39:29,935 --> 02:39:32,186 --> (Woman speaks German) 1757 02:39:34,982 --> 02:39:42,029 --> (Lanzmann) Excuse me. How many quarts of beer a day do you sell? 1758 02:39:44,825 --> 02:39:47,076 --> You can't tell me? 1759 02:39:49,204 --> 02:39:53,082 --> (Man) I'd rather not. I have my reasons. 1760 02:39:53,208 --> 02:39:55,418 --> - But why not? - Yes. 1761 02:39:55,544 --> 02:39:57,670 --> (Man) Two Pilsners. 1762 02:39:58,130 --> 02:39:59,547 --> Yes. 1763 02:40:01,842 --> 02:40:08,139 --> (Lanzmann) How many quarts of beer a day do you sell? 1764 02:40:10,225 --> 02:40:12,810 --> - Go on, tell him. - Tell him what? 1765 02:40:12,936 --> 02:40:16,230 --> Just tell him approximately. 1766 02:40:16,356 --> 02:40:19,775 --> How many quarts of beer a day do you sell? 1767 02:40:19,901 --> 02:40:20,985 --> 400, 500 quarts. 1768 02:40:21,111 --> 02:40:23,738 --> - What? - 400, 500 quarts. 1769 02:40:24,615 --> 02:40:25,656 --> Here. 1770 02:40:25,782 --> 02:40:27,783 --> That's a lot. 1771 02:40:27,909 --> 02:40:30,286 --> (Indistinct German) 1772 02:40:34,291 --> 02:40:37,168 --> Have you worked here long? 1773 02:40:38,629 --> 02:40:42,298 --> - Around 20 years. - 20 years? 1774 02:40:42,424 --> 02:40:43,424 --> Yes. 1775 02:40:43,467 --> 02:40:46,636 --> - Why are you hiding...? - I have my reasons. 1776 02:40:46,762 --> 02:40:50,181 --> - ...your face? - I have my reasons. 1777 02:40:50,307 --> 02:40:52,224 --> What reasons? 1778 02:40:54,227 --> 02:40:57,396 --> - Never mind. - Why not? 1779 02:41:10,702 --> 02:41:12,870 --> (Lanzmann) Do you recognise this man? 1780 02:41:15,415 --> 02:41:16,916 --> No? 1781 02:41:17,042 --> 02:41:18,793 --> Christian Wirth? 1782 02:41:18,919 --> 02:41:20,711 --> Mr. Oberhauser. 1783 02:41:21,213 --> 02:41:23,130 --> Do you remember Belzec? 1784 02:41:24,424 --> 02:41:27,051 --> No memories of Belzec? 1785 02:41:27,886 --> 02:41:33,015 --> No? 1786 02:41:37,104 --> 02:41:42,024 --> Of the overflowing graves? 1787 02:41:53,078 --> 02:41:55,037 --> You don't remember? 1788 02:42:01,211 --> 02:42:04,255 --> MUNICH 1789 02:42:15,100 --> 02:42:17,643 --> WUPPERTAL ANTON SPIESS 1790 02:42:17,769 --> 02:42:22,022 --> GERMAN STATE PROSECUTOR AT TREBLINKA TRIAL, FRANKFURT 1960 1791 02:42:27,612 --> 02:42:32,783 --> (Spiess in German) When the Action it selffirst got under way, 1792 02:42:32,909 --> 02:42:35,953 --> it was almost totally improvised. 1793 02:42:39,124 --> 02:42:43,627 --> At Treblinka, for example, 1794 02:42:43,754 --> 02:42:48,799 --> the commandant, Dr. Eberl, let more trains come in 1795 02:42:48,925 --> 02:42:53,512 --> than the camp could handle. 1796 02:42:54,139 --> 02:42:56,182 --> It was a disaster! 1797 02:42:56,308 --> 02:42:58,434 --> Mountains of corpses! 1798 02:42:59,019 --> 02:43:03,898 --> Word of this foul-up 1799 02:43:04,024 --> 02:43:08,068 --> reached the head of the Reinhard Action, 1800 02:43:08,195 --> 02:43:11,697 --> Odilo Globocznik, in Lublin. 1801 02:43:11,823 --> 02:43:14,575 --> He went to Treblinka 1802 02:43:14,701 --> 02:43:19,538 --> to see what was happening. 1803 02:43:19,664 --> 02:43:23,709 --> There's a very concrete account of the trip 1804 02:43:23,835 --> 02:43:27,755 --> by his former driver, Oberhauser. 1805 02:43:27,881 --> 02:43:31,008 --> Globocznik arrived on a hot day in August. 1806 02:43:31,134 --> 02:43:36,180 --> The camp was permeated 1807 02:43:37,182 --> 02:43:40,935 --> with the stench of rotting flesh. 1808 02:43:41,061 --> 02:43:47,858 --> Globocznik didn't even bother to enter the camp. 1809 02:43:47,984 --> 02:43:50,820 --> He stopped here, before the commandant's office, 1810 02:43:50,946 --> 02:43:52,988 --> sent for Dr. Eberl 1811 02:43:53,114 --> 02:43:57,284 --> and greeted him with these words, 1812 02:43:57,410 --> 02:44:01,705 --> "How dare you accept so many every day 1813 02:44:01,832 --> 02:44:04,792 --> "when you can only process 3,000?" 1814 02:44:12,884 --> 02:44:15,678 --> Operations were suspended, 1815 02:44:16,304 --> 02:44:19,807 --> Eberl was transferred and Wirth came, 1816 02:44:21,101 --> 02:44:23,853 --> followed immediately by Stangl, 1817 02:44:25,146 --> 02:44:29,316 --> and the camp was completely reorganised. 1818 02:44:39,035 --> 02:44:43,122 --> The Reinhard Action covered three extermination camps: 1819 02:44:43,248 --> 02:44:47,042 --> Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec. 1820 02:44:47,168 --> 02:44:51,964 --> There's also talk of three death camps on the Bug River, 1821 02:44:52,090 --> 02:44:56,302 --> for they were all located on or near the Bug. 1822 02:45:00,640 --> 02:45:04,518 --> The gas chambers were the heart of the camp. 1823 02:45:06,479 --> 02:45:09,231 --> They were built first, 1824 02:45:09,357 --> 02:45:13,027 --> in the woods, or in a field, as at Treblinka. 1825 02:45:13,695 --> 02:45:18,699 --> The gas chambers were the only stone buildings. 1826 02:45:19,492 --> 02:45:23,037 --> All the others were wooden sheds. 1827 02:45:23,538 --> 02:45:27,041 --> These camps weren't built to last. 1828 02:45:28,376 --> 02:45:33,088 --> Himmler was in a hurry to begin the 'final solution'. 1829 02:45:33,214 --> 02:45:37,468 --> The Germans had to capitalise on their eastward advance 1830 02:45:37,594 --> 02:45:39,803 --> and use this remote back-country 1831 02:45:39,930 --> 02:45:47,311 --> to carry out their mass murder as secretly as possible. 1832 02:45:52,233 --> 02:45:54,777 --> So at first, they couldn't manage the perfection 1833 02:45:54,903 --> 02:45:57,988 --> they achieved three months later. 1834 02:46:09,125 --> 02:46:11,126 --> (Piwonski speaks Polish) 1835 02:46:15,006 --> 02:46:17,341 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in French) Near the end of March 1942... 1836 02:46:17,467 --> 02:46:20,344 --> (Piwonski continues) 1837 02:46:24,057 --> 02:46:28,102 --> ...sizeable groups of Jews were herded here, 1838 02:46:28,228 --> 02:46:30,354 --> groups of 50 to 100 people. 1839 02:46:31,773 --> 02:46:33,607 --> (Piwonski continues) 1840 02:46:35,819 --> 02:46:37,903 --> Several trains arrived... 1841 02:46:45,161 --> 02:46:49,123 --> ...with sections of barracks, with posts, barbed wire, bricks... 1842 02:46:56,548 --> 02:47:00,426 --> ...and construction of the camp as such began. 1843 02:47:02,012 --> 02:47:04,346 --> (Train whistle blows) 1844 02:47:06,933 --> 02:47:09,935 --> (Piwonski continues in Polish) 1845 02:47:12,147 --> 02:47:14,857 --> (Interpreter) The Jews unloaded these cars... 1846 02:47:19,279 --> 02:47:22,614 --> ...and carted the sections of barracks to the camp. 1847 02:47:31,791 --> 02:47:35,544 --> The Germans made them work extremely fast. 1848 02:47:46,806 --> 02:47:49,892 --> When we saw the pace they worked at... 1849 02:47:58,693 --> 02:48:00,903 --> It was extremely brutal. 1850 02:48:09,579 --> 02:48:13,916 --> When we saw the complex being built, and the fence, 1851 02:48:14,042 --> 02:48:17,294 --> which, after all, enclosed a vast space... 1852 02:48:17,420 --> 02:48:19,421 --> (Piwonski continues) 1853 02:48:25,178 --> 02:48:29,181 --> ...we realised that what the Germans were building 1854 02:48:29,307 --> 02:48:31,600 --> wasn't meant to aid mankind. 1855 02:48:34,813 --> 02:48:36,355 --> (Birds chirping) 1856 02:48:36,481 --> 02:48:38,482 --> (Piwonski continues) 1857 02:48:42,278 --> 02:48:44,655 --> (Interpreter) Early in June... 1858 02:48:51,621 --> 02:48:53,539 --> ...the first convoy arrived. 1859 02:48:57,377 --> 02:48:59,586 --> I'd say there were over 40 cars. 1860 02:49:05,927 --> 02:49:09,471 --> With the convoy were SS men in black uniforms. 1861 02:49:14,185 --> 02:49:17,938 --> It happened one afternoon. He had just finished work. 1862 02:49:18,064 --> 02:49:20,149 --> JAN PIWONSKI 1863 02:49:22,735 --> 02:49:26,029 --> But he got on his bicycle and went home. 1864 02:49:27,115 --> 02:49:28,740 --> (Lanzmann) Why? 1865 02:49:40,587 --> 02:49:42,838 --> I merely thought 1866 02:49:42,964 --> 02:49:46,967 --> that these people had come to build the camp, 1867 02:49:47,093 --> 02:49:49,761 --> as the others had before them. 1868 02:49:51,472 --> 02:49:53,098 --> That convoy... 1869 02:49:54,642 --> 02:49:58,103 --> ...there was no way of knowing that it was... 1870 02:50:02,108 --> 02:50:04,276 --> ...the first earmarked for extermination. 1871 02:50:05,695 --> 02:50:11,158 --> And besides... he couldn't have known that Sobibor... 1872 02:50:11,284 --> 02:50:13,160 --> (Piwonski continues) 1873 02:50:13,286 --> 02:50:17,956 --> ...would be a place for the mass extermination of the Jews. 1874 02:50:28,218 --> 02:50:32,846 --> The next morning, when I came here to work, 1875 02:50:32,972 --> 02:50:37,017 --> the station was absolutely silent. 1876 02:51:01,668 --> 02:51:06,046 --> And we realised, 1877 02:51:06,172 --> 02:51:11,927 --> after talking with the Poles who worked at the station here... 1878 02:51:13,638 --> 02:51:18,350 --> ...that something utterly incomprehensible had happened. 1879 02:51:24,482 --> 02:51:27,317 --> First of all, when the camp was being built... 1880 02:51:33,491 --> 02:51:35,742 --> ...there were orders shouted in German... 1881 02:51:36,202 --> 02:51:37,911 --> ...there were screams... 1882 02:51:39,122 --> 02:51:42,874 --> ...Jews were working at the run, there were shots, 1883 02:51:43,710 --> 02:51:46,837 --> and here there was that silence... 1884 02:51:52,176 --> 02:51:54,219 --> No work crews... 1885 02:51:57,724 --> 02:51:59,891 --> ...a really total silence. 1886 02:52:08,109 --> 02:52:11,987 --> 40 cars had arrived, and then... nothing. 1887 02:52:12,113 --> 02:52:14,906 --> It was all very strange. 1888 02:52:15,742 --> 02:52:18,285 --> (Lanzmann) It was the silence that tipped them off? 1889 02:52:18,411 --> 02:52:19,870 --> (Interpreter) That's right. 1890 02:52:19,996 --> 02:52:22,664 --> Can he describe that silence? 1891 02:52:22,790 --> 02:52:24,458 --> (Piwonski speaks Polish) 1892 02:52:24,584 --> 02:52:27,419 --> It was a silence. 1893 02:52:27,545 --> 02:52:31,631 --> Nothing was going on in the camp. You heard nothing. 1894 02:52:31,758 --> 02:52:33,592 --> Nothing moved. 1895 02:52:34,218 --> 02:52:36,219 --> (Piwonski continues) 1896 02:52:40,475 --> 02:52:43,393 --> So then they began to wonder... 1897 02:52:46,898 --> 02:52:50,192 --> "Where have they put those Jews?" 1898 02:52:54,906 --> 02:52:59,785 --> (Muller in German) Cell 13, Block 11 at Auschwitz 1, 1899 02:52:59,911 --> 02:53:03,330 --> is where the Special Work Detail was held. 1900 02:53:05,416 --> 02:53:09,002 --> The cell was underground, isolated. 1901 02:53:09,962 --> 02:53:13,382 --> For we were... 1902 02:53:14,926 --> 02:53:16,968 --> ..."bearers of secrets". 1903 02:53:18,513 --> 02:53:20,889 --> We were reprieved dead men. 1904 02:53:22,892 --> 02:53:26,103 --> We weren't allowed to talk to anyone, 1905 02:53:26,229 --> 02:53:29,022 --> or contact any prisoner, 1906 02:53:29,565 --> 02:53:32,609 --> even the SS. 1907 02:53:32,735 --> 02:53:36,947 --> Only those in charge of the "Action." 1908 02:53:40,952 --> 02:53:43,078 --> There was a window. 1909 02:53:43,913 --> 02:53:47,541 --> We heard what happened in the courtyard. 1910 02:53:49,252 --> 02:53:51,503 --> The executions, 1911 02:53:52,547 --> 02:53:55,799 --> the victims' cries, the screams, 1912 02:53:56,509 --> 02:53:58,718 --> but we couldn't see anything. 1913 02:54:04,350 --> 02:54:06,935 --> This went on for several days. 1914 02:54:08,312 --> 02:54:12,399 --> One night an SS man came 1915 02:54:13,317 --> 02:54:15,527 --> from the political section. 1916 02:54:17,321 --> 02:54:23,034 --> It was around 4:00am. 1917 02:54:27,248 --> 02:54:32,544 --> The whole camp was still asleep. 1918 02:54:35,089 --> 02:54:37,966 --> There wasn't a sound in the camp. 1919 02:54:46,476 --> 02:54:51,730 --> We were again taken out of our cell 1920 02:54:53,774 --> 02:54:56,651 --> and led to the crematorium. 1921 02:55:02,033 --> 02:55:05,869 --> There, for the first time, I saw the procedure used 1922 02:55:05,995 --> 02:55:10,123 --> with those who came in alive. 1923 02:55:11,250 --> 02:55:13,376 --> We were lined up against a wall 1924 02:55:13,503 --> 02:55:17,380 --> and told, "No one may talk to those people." 1925 02:55:21,344 --> 02:55:26,431 --> Suddenly, the wooden door to the crematorium courtyard opened, 1926 02:55:26,557 --> 02:55:32,312 --> and 250 to 300 people filed in, 1927 02:55:32,438 --> 02:55:35,732 --> old people, and women. 1928 02:55:38,069 --> 02:55:41,863 --> They carried bundles, wore the Star of David. 1929 02:55:43,866 --> 02:55:46,535 --> Even from a distance, I could tell 1930 02:55:46,661 --> 02:55:50,205 --> that they were Polish Jews, 1931 02:55:51,791 --> 02:55:55,460 --> probably from Upper Silesia, 1932 02:55:55,586 --> 02:56:00,590 --> from the Sosnowiec ghetto, some 20 miles from Auschwitz. 1933 02:56:03,010 --> 02:56:04,386 --> FILIP MULLER 1934 02:56:04,512 --> 02:56:09,516 --> I caught some of the things they said. 1935 02:56:10,643 --> 02:56:12,435 --> I heard "fachowitz," 1936 02:56:12,562 --> 02:56:15,272 --> meaning "skilled worker." 1937 02:56:15,398 --> 02:56:18,316 --> And "Malach-ha-Mavis," 1938 02:56:19,068 --> 02:56:22,112 --> which means "the angel of death" in Yiddish. 1939 02:56:24,907 --> 02:56:28,201 --> Also, "harginnen": "They're going to kill us." 1940 02:56:31,664 --> 02:56:35,709 --> From what I could hear, 1941 02:56:35,835 --> 02:56:40,213 --> I clearly understood the struggle going on inside them. 1942 02:56:40,339 --> 02:56:42,549 --> Sometimes they spoke of work 1943 02:56:42,675 --> 02:56:47,220 --> probably hoping that they'd be put to work. 1944 02:56:48,389 --> 02:56:52,726 --> Or they spoke of "Malach-ha-Mavis," the angel of death. 1945 02:56:54,312 --> 02:56:58,565 --> The conflicting words echoed the conflict in their feelings. 1946 02:56:59,317 --> 02:57:02,861 --> Then a sudden silence 1947 02:57:03,404 --> 02:57:07,657 --> fell over those gathered in the crematorium courtyard. 1948 02:57:10,286 --> 02:57:13,413 --> All eyes converged 1949 02:57:14,165 --> 02:57:17,709 --> on the flat roof of the crematorium. 1950 02:57:21,422 --> 02:57:23,465 --> Who was standing there? 1951 02:57:23,591 --> 02:57:25,925 --> Aumeyer of the SS, 1952 02:57:26,844 --> 02:57:29,679 --> Grabner, the head of the political section, 1953 02:57:30,264 --> 02:57:32,974 --> and Hossler, the SS officer. 1954 02:57:34,101 --> 02:57:37,479 --> Aumeyer addressed the crowd, 1955 02:57:39,440 --> 02:57:43,026 --> "You're here to work, 1956 02:57:43,152 --> 02:57:48,073 --> "for our soldiers fighting at the front. 1957 02:57:50,326 --> 02:57:53,286 --> "Those who can work will be all right." 1958 02:57:54,497 --> 02:58:02,045 --> It was obvious that hope flared in those people. 1959 02:58:02,171 --> 02:58:06,174 --> You could feel it clearly. 1960 02:58:07,426 --> 02:58:11,054 --> The executioners had got past the first obstacle. 1961 02:58:12,056 --> 02:58:15,517 --> They saw it was succeeding. 1962 02:58:17,144 --> 02:58:19,479 --> Then Grabner spoke up, 1963 02:58:20,815 --> 02:58:25,485 --> "We need masons, electricians, 1964 02:58:26,153 --> 02:58:28,363 --> "all the trades." 1965 02:58:29,323 --> 02:58:33,660 --> Next, Hossler took over. 1966 02:58:34,829 --> 02:58:39,457 --> He pointed to a short man in the crowd. 1967 02:58:39,583 --> 02:58:41,626 --> I can still see him. 1968 02:58:41,752 --> 02:58:43,545 --> "What's your trade?" 1969 02:58:43,671 --> 02:58:48,508 --> The man said, "Mr. Officer, I'm a tailor." 1970 02:58:49,301 --> 02:58:52,887 --> "A tailor? What kind of tailor?" 1971 02:58:54,098 --> 02:58:58,351 --> "A men's... No, for both men and women." 1972 02:58:58,477 --> 02:59:03,732 --> "Wonderful! We need people like you in our workshops." 1973 02:59:05,901 --> 02:59:08,903 --> Then he questioned a woman, 1974 02:59:09,655 --> 02:59:12,323 --> "What's your trade?" 1975 02:59:12,950 --> 02:59:15,452 --> "Nurse," she replied. 1976 02:59:15,578 --> 02:59:22,292 --> "Splendid! We need nurses in our hospitals for our soldiers. 1977 02:59:22,418 --> 02:59:26,796 --> "We need all of you! But first, undress. 1978 02:59:27,673 --> 02:59:30,675 --> "You must be disinfected. 1979 02:59:30,801 --> 02:59:34,053 --> "We want you healthy." 1980 02:59:36,557 --> 02:59:39,934 --> I could see the people were calmer, 1981 02:59:40,561 --> 02:59:44,814 --> reassured by what they'd heard, 1982 02:59:45,524 --> 02:59:48,651 --> and they began to undress. 1983 02:59:50,529 --> 02:59:52,989 --> Even if they still had their doubts, 1984 02:59:53,824 --> 02:59:56,826 --> if you want to live, you must hope. 1985 03:00:02,458 --> 03:00:06,044 --> Their clothing remained in the courtyard, 1986 03:00:06,879 --> 03:00:09,547 --> scattered everywhere. 1987 03:00:10,758 --> 03:00:13,384 --> Aumeyer was beaming, 1988 03:00:13,511 --> 03:00:17,430 --> very proud of how he'd handled things. 1989 03:00:17,556 --> 03:00:22,060 --> He turned to some of the SS men and told them, 1990 03:00:22,186 --> 03:00:25,355 --> "You see? That's the way to do it!" 1991 03:00:26,816 --> 03:00:29,067 --> By this device, 1992 03:00:29,193 --> 03:00:34,614 --> a great leap forward had been made: 1993 03:00:35,866 --> 03:00:39,244 --> Now the clothing could be used. 1994 03:00:43,165 --> 03:00:44,791 --> RAUL HILBERG HISTORIAN 1995 03:00:44,917 --> 03:00:48,294 --> In all of my work, I have never begun by asking the big questions, 1996 03:00:48,420 --> 03:00:51,881 --> because I was always afraid that I would come up with small answers, 1997 03:00:52,007 --> 03:00:56,719 --> and I have preferred, therefore, to address these things, 1998 03:00:56,846 --> 03:00:59,514 --> which are minutiae or detail, 1999 03:00:59,640 --> 03:01:03,518 --> in order that I might then be able to put together 2000 03:01:03,644 --> 03:01:05,353 --> in a gestalt, 2001 03:01:05,479 --> 03:01:07,230 --> a picture, which... 2002 03:01:08,482 --> 03:01:11,109 --> ...if not an explanation, is at least a description, 2003 03:01:11,235 --> 03:01:15,655 --> a more full description, of what transpired. 2004 03:01:15,781 --> 03:01:21,578 --> And, in that sense, I look also upon the bureaucratic destruction process, 2005 03:01:21,704 --> 03:01:23,538 --> for this is what it was, 2006 03:01:23,664 --> 03:01:28,209 --> as a series of minute steps taken in logical order 2007 03:01:28,335 --> 03:01:31,546 --> and relying above all, as much as possible, 2008 03:01:31,672 --> 03:01:35,133 --> on experience, past experience. 2009 03:01:35,259 --> 03:01:39,429 --> This goes not only, incidentally, for the administrative steps taken, 2010 03:01:39,555 --> 03:01:42,223 --> but also the psychological arguments, 2011 03:01:42,349 --> 03:01:44,684 --> even the propaganda. 2012 03:01:44,810 --> 03:01:49,230 --> Amazingly little was newly invented 2013 03:01:49,356 --> 03:01:54,152 --> until, of course, the moment came when one had to go beyond 2014 03:01:54,278 --> 03:01:56,654 --> that which had already been established by precedent, 2015 03:01:56,780 --> 03:01:58,615 --> and one had to gas these people, 2016 03:01:58,741 --> 03:02:02,160 --> or, in some sense, annihilate them on a large scale. 2017 03:02:02,286 --> 03:02:05,914 --> Then, these bureaucrats became inventors. 2018 03:02:06,749 --> 03:02:09,626 --> But like all inventors of institutions, 2019 03:02:09,752 --> 03:02:12,629 --> they did not copyright or patent their achievements, 2020 03:02:12,755 --> 03:02:15,673 --> and they preferred obscurity. 2021 03:02:17,092 --> 03:02:20,345 --> (Lanzmann) What did they get from the past, the Nazis? 2022 03:02:22,932 --> 03:02:27,602 --> They got the actual content of measures which they took. 2023 03:02:27,728 --> 03:02:31,981 --> For example, the barring of Jews from office, 2024 03:02:33,192 --> 03:02:36,819 --> the prohibition of intermarriages, 2025 03:02:37,321 --> 03:02:43,326 --> the employment in Jewish homes of female persons under the age of45, 2026 03:02:45,120 --> 03:02:49,999 --> the various marking decrees, especially the Jewish star, 2027 03:02:51,418 --> 03:02:53,503 --> the compulsory ghetto, 2028 03:02:55,381 --> 03:02:59,175 --> the voidance of any will executed by a Jew 2029 03:02:59,301 --> 03:03:01,928 --> that might work in such a way 2030 03:03:02,054 --> 03:03:07,517 --> as to prevent inheritance of his property by someone who was a Christian. 2031 03:03:08,602 --> 03:03:13,231 --> Many such measures had been worked out 2032 03:03:13,357 --> 03:03:16,985 --> over the course of more than a thousand years 2033 03:03:18,362 --> 03:03:22,073 --> by authorities of the Church 2034 03:03:22,199 --> 03:03:27,537 --> and by secular governments that followed in those footsteps. 2035 03:03:28,455 --> 03:03:30,415 --> And the experience gathered over that time 2036 03:03:30,541 --> 03:03:33,543 --> became a reservoir that could be used 2037 03:03:33,669 --> 03:03:36,879 --> and which indeed was used to an amazing extent. 2038 03:03:38,841 --> 03:03:40,842 --> You mean that one can compare... 2039 03:03:40,968 --> 03:03:42,885 --> - One can actually compare... - Each measure? 2040 03:03:43,012 --> 03:03:50,560 --> One can compare a rather large number of German laws and decrees 2041 03:03:50,686 --> 03:03:53,062 --> with their counterparts in the past 2042 03:03:53,605 --> 03:03:56,107 --> and find complete parallels, 2043 03:03:56,233 --> 03:03:57,942 --> even in detail, 2044 03:03:59,111 --> 03:04:01,612 --> as if they were a memory 2045 03:04:02,364 --> 03:04:06,909 --> which automatically extended to the period of 1933 2046 03:04:07,036 --> 03:04:11,748 --> and 1935 and 1939 and beyond. 2047 03:04:12,583 --> 03:04:15,668 --> In such respect, they didn't invent anything? 2048 03:04:15,794 --> 03:04:17,545 --> They invented very little, 2049 03:04:17,671 --> 03:04:20,131 --> and they did not invent the portrait of the Jew, 2050 03:04:20,257 --> 03:04:22,633 --> which also was taken over, lock, stock and barrel, 2051 03:04:22,760 --> 03:04:26,512 --> from writings going back to the 16th century. 2052 03:04:26,638 --> 03:04:28,389 --> So, even the propaganda, 2053 03:04:28,515 --> 03:04:31,684 --> the realm of the imagination and invention, 2054 03:04:31,810 --> 03:04:34,479 --> even there, they were remarkably in the footsteps 2055 03:04:34,605 --> 03:04:36,606 --> of those who preceded them, 2056 03:04:36,732 --> 03:04:40,568 --> from Martin Luther to the 19th century. 2057 03:04:42,362 --> 03:04:44,697 --> And, here again, they were not inventive. 2058 03:04:45,157 --> 03:04:47,992 --> They had to become inventive with the 'final solution'. 2059 03:04:48,118 --> 03:04:49,994 --> That was their great invention, 2060 03:04:50,120 --> 03:04:53,414 --> and that is what made this entire process different 2061 03:04:53,540 --> 03:04:57,418 --> from all others that had preceded that event. 2062 03:04:58,796 --> 03:05:00,797 --> And, in this respect, 2063 03:05:02,257 --> 03:05:08,304 --> what transpired when the final solution was... adopted, 2064 03:05:08,430 --> 03:05:10,848 --> or, to be more precise, 2065 03:05:11,683 --> 03:05:15,061 --> when the bureaucracy moved into it, 2066 03:05:17,022 --> 03:05:19,357 --> was a turning point in history. 2067 03:05:22,444 --> 03:05:28,825 --> Even here, I would suggest a logical progression, 2068 03:05:30,035 --> 03:05:32,995 --> one which came to fruition 2069 03:05:34,373 --> 03:05:37,125 --> in what might be called closure, 2070 03:05:38,961 --> 03:05:41,337 --> because, from the earliest days, 2071 03:05:41,463 --> 03:05:45,341 --> from the fourth century, fifth century, sixth century, 2072 03:05:46,343 --> 03:05:50,555 --> the missionaries of Christianity had said, in effect, to the Jews, 2073 03:05:50,681 --> 03:05:54,934 --> "You may not live among us as Jews." 2074 03:05:55,853 --> 03:05:58,396 --> The secular rulers who followed them, 2075 03:05:58,897 --> 03:06:03,651 --> from the late Middle Ages, had then decided, 2076 03:06:03,777 --> 03:06:06,237 --> "You may not live among us," 2077 03:06:07,030 --> 03:06:09,574 --> and the Nazis finally decreed, 2078 03:06:10,033 --> 03:06:11,742 --> "You may not live." 2079 03:06:13,912 --> 03:06:18,583 --> This means that the three steps were... The first one was conversion. 2080 03:06:19,168 --> 03:06:22,378 --> - Conversion, followed by... - The second one, ghettoisation. 2081 03:06:22,504 --> 03:06:23,921 --> - Expulsion. - Or expulsion. 2082 03:06:24,047 --> 03:06:25,882 --> Expulsion. 2083 03:06:26,008 --> 03:06:28,885 --> And the third was the territorial solution, 2084 03:06:30,053 --> 03:06:33,014 --> which was, of course, the solution carried out 2085 03:06:33,140 --> 03:06:35,141 --> within the territories under German command, 2086 03:06:35,267 --> 03:06:37,435 --> excluding emigration: 2087 03:06:37,561 --> 03:06:39,312 --> death... 2088 03:06:40,522 --> 03:06:42,315 --> The final solution. 2089 03:06:42,900 --> 03:06:46,527 --> And the "final solution," you see, is really final, 2090 03:06:47,237 --> 03:06:53,326 --> because people who are converted can yet be, in secret, Jews, 2091 03:06:53,452 --> 03:06:57,038 --> people who are expelled can yet return, 2092 03:06:57,706 --> 03:07:02,210 --> but people who are dead will not reappear. 2093 03:07:05,881 --> 03:07:12,553 --> In such a respect, in the last stage, they were really pioneers and inventors? 2094 03:07:13,597 --> 03:07:17,266 --> This was something unprecedented, and this was something new. 2095 03:07:25,067 --> 03:07:27,360 --> How can one figure... 2096 03:07:27,486 --> 03:07:32,657 --> give some ideas about the complete newness of this, 2097 03:07:32,783 --> 03:07:36,202 --> because I think that it was new for themselves too? 2098 03:07:37,079 --> 03:07:38,496 --> Yes, it was new, 2099 03:07:38,622 --> 03:07:46,087 --> and this... I think, for this reason that one cannot find a specific document, 2100 03:07:46,213 --> 03:07:50,007 --> a specific plan, outline or blueprint 2101 03:07:50,634 --> 03:07:54,011 --> which states, "Now, the Jews will be killed." 2102 03:07:54,846 --> 03:07:58,391 --> Everything is left to inference from general words. 2103 03:07:58,517 --> 03:08:01,060 --> - Inference from...? - General wording. 2104 03:08:01,186 --> 03:08:04,563 --> The very wording "final solution" or "total solution", 2105 03:08:04,690 --> 03:08:06,899 --> or "territorial solution", 2106 03:08:07,526 --> 03:08:11,529 --> leaves something to the bureaucrat that he must infer. 2107 03:08:11,655 --> 03:08:13,614 --> He cannot read that document. 2108 03:08:13,740 --> 03:08:17,451 --> One cannot even read Goring's famous letter to Heydrich, 2109 03:08:17,577 --> 03:08:19,620 --> at the end of July 1941, 2110 03:08:19,746 --> 03:08:23,541 --> charging him in two paragraphs to proceed with the final solution. 2111 03:08:23,667 --> 03:08:27,753 --> And taking that document aside, everything is clarified? 2112 03:08:27,879 --> 03:08:29,422 --> Far from it. 2113 03:08:29,548 --> 03:08:30,881 --> - Far from it? - Far from it. 2114 03:08:31,008 --> 03:08:33,926 --> It was an authorisation to invent. 2115 03:08:34,052 --> 03:08:36,804 --> It was an authorisation to begin something 2116 03:08:36,930 --> 03:08:41,183 --> that was not as yet capable of being put into words. 2117 03:08:48,859 --> 03:08:51,444 --> I think it... I think of it that way. 2118 03:08:52,404 --> 03:08:55,656 --> It was a case for every agency, as a matter off act. 2119 03:08:55,782 --> 03:08:57,575 --> Absolutely, for every agency. 2120 03:08:57,701 --> 03:09:02,121 --> In every aspect of this operation, invention was necessary. 2121 03:09:03,332 --> 03:09:05,458 --> Certainly at this point, 2122 03:09:05,584 --> 03:09:08,753 --> because every problem was unprecedented: 2123 03:09:09,796 --> 03:09:13,174 --> not just how to kill the Jews, but what to do with their property thereafter, 2124 03:09:13,300 --> 03:09:14,717 --> and, not only that, 2125 03:09:14,843 --> 03:09:16,385 --> but how to deal with the problem 2126 03:09:16,511 --> 03:09:19,722 --> of not letting the world know what had happened. 2127 03:09:19,848 --> 03:09:23,434 --> All of these multitudes of problems were new. 2128 03:10:40,595 --> 03:10:42,430 --> (Children shouting) 2129 03:11:01,700 --> 03:11:03,617 --> (Van door closes) 2130 03:11:22,471 --> 03:11:25,598 --> FRANZ SCHALLING 2131 03:11:28,727 --> 03:11:33,898 --> (Lanzmann in German) First, explain to me... 2132 03:11:34,357 --> 03:11:38,777 --> how you came to Kulmhof, to Chelmno. 2133 03:11:39,571 --> 03:11:41,864 --> You were at Lodz, right? 2134 03:11:41,990 --> 03:11:43,782 --> - (Schalling) In Lodz, yes. - Litzmannstadt? 2135 03:11:43,909 --> 03:11:46,118 --> (Schalling) In Litzmannstadt, yes. 2136 03:11:46,244 --> 03:11:50,748 --> We were on permanent guard duty. 2137 03:11:51,583 --> 03:11:54,210 --> Protecting military objectives: mills, 2138 03:11:54,711 --> 03:11:58,339 --> the roads, when Hitler went to East Prussia. 2139 03:11:59,049 --> 03:12:02,134 --> It was dreary, and we were told, 2140 03:12:02,260 --> 03:12:07,723 --> "We're looking for men who want to break out of this routine." 2141 03:12:07,849 --> 03:12:10,017 --> So we volunteered. 2142 03:12:11,645 --> 03:12:14,355 --> We were issued winter uniforms, 2143 03:12:14,814 --> 03:12:19,235 --> overcoats, fur hats, fur-lined boots, 2144 03:12:20,111 --> 03:12:24,657 --> and 2 or 3 days later, we were told, "We're off!" 2145 03:12:25,659 --> 03:12:29,203 --> We were put aboard 2 or 3 trucks... I don't know... 2146 03:12:29,329 --> 03:12:33,582 --> They had benches, 2147 03:12:34,251 --> 03:12:36,210 --> and we rode and rode. 2148 03:12:36,336 --> 03:12:38,837 --> Finally we arrived. 2149 03:12:40,674 --> 03:12:44,093 --> The place was crawling with SS men and police. 2150 03:12:44,219 --> 03:12:48,430 --> Our first question was, "What goes on here?" 2151 03:12:48,557 --> 03:12:51,475 --> They said, "You'll find out!" 2152 03:12:51,601 --> 03:12:54,562 --> - (Lanzmann) You'll find out? - You'll find out. 2153 03:12:54,688 --> 03:12:56,772 --> (Lanzmann) Yes. 2154 03:12:56,898 --> 03:13:00,192 --> - You weren't in the SS, you were... - Police. 2155 03:13:00,318 --> 03:13:03,988 --> - Which police? - Security guards. 2156 03:13:04,781 --> 03:13:08,993 --> We were ordered to report to the Deutsche Haus, 2157 03:13:09,119 --> 03:13:13,122 --> the only big stone building in the village. 2158 03:13:13,248 --> 03:13:14,248 --> Yes. 2159 03:13:14,374 --> 03:13:16,333 --> We were taken into it. 2160 03:13:17,377 --> 03:13:19,670 --> An SS man immediately told us, 2161 03:13:19,796 --> 03:13:22,965 --> "This is a top secret mission." 2162 03:13:23,091 --> 03:13:25,426 --> - Secret? - "A top secret mission." 2163 03:13:25,552 --> 03:13:27,344 --> - Yes. - "Sign this!" 2164 03:13:27,470 --> 03:13:29,430 --> We each had to sign. 2165 03:13:29,556 --> 03:13:33,350 --> There was a form ready for each of us. 2166 03:13:36,313 --> 03:13:38,564 --> What did it say? 2167 03:13:38,690 --> 03:13:41,859 --> It was a pledge of secrecy. 2168 03:13:41,985 --> 03:13:44,695 --> We never even got to read it through. 2169 03:13:44,821 --> 03:13:47,072 --> You had to take an oath? 2170 03:13:47,198 --> 03:13:50,200 --> - No, just sign... - Yes. 2171 03:13:50,327 --> 03:13:53,871 --> Promising to shut up about whatever we'd see. 2172 03:13:53,997 --> 03:13:55,581 --> - Shut up? - Not say a word. 2173 03:13:55,707 --> 03:13:57,166 --> Yes. 2174 03:13:57,292 --> 03:14:01,420 --> After we'd signed, we were told, 2175 03:14:02,005 --> 03:14:03,756 --> "Final solution to the Jewish question." 2176 03:14:03,882 --> 03:14:07,843 --> We didn't understand what that meant. 2177 03:14:07,969 --> 03:14:09,762 --> So someone said...? 2178 03:14:09,888 --> 03:14:12,973 --> He told us what was going to happen there. 2179 03:14:13,099 --> 03:14:16,894 --> Someone said, "The final solution to the Jewish question." 2180 03:14:17,020 --> 03:14:21,315 --> You'd be assigned to the "final solution"? 2181 03:14:21,441 --> 03:14:24,193 --> Yes, but what did that mean? 2182 03:14:24,319 --> 03:14:26,487 --> We'd never heard that before. 2183 03:14:26,613 --> 03:14:28,614 --> So it was explained to us. 2184 03:14:28,740 --> 03:14:30,908 --> Just when was this? 2185 03:14:31,034 --> 03:14:33,577 --> Let's see... when was it...? 2186 03:14:34,913 --> 03:14:37,915 --> In the winter of 1941-42. 2187 03:14:44,297 --> 03:14:47,424 --> Then we were assigned to our stations. 2188 03:14:47,550 --> 03:14:51,470 --> Our guard post was at the side of the road. 2189 03:14:51,596 --> 03:14:54,348 --> A sentry box in front of the castle. 2190 03:14:54,808 --> 03:14:58,477 --> (Lanzmann) So you were in the "castle detail"? 2191 03:15:01,314 --> 03:15:03,190 --> (Schalling) That's right. 2192 03:15:04,359 --> 03:15:08,320 --> (Lanzmann) Can you describe what you saw? 2193 03:15:09,781 --> 03:15:12,574 --> We could see. We were at the gatehouse. 2194 03:15:12,701 --> 03:15:13,784 --> Yes? 2195 03:15:13,910 --> 03:15:18,497 --> When the Jews arrived, the way they looked, 2196 03:15:18,623 --> 03:15:23,085 --> half-frozen, starved, dirty, already half-dead. 2197 03:15:23,211 --> 03:15:26,046 --> Old people, children. 2198 03:15:27,173 --> 03:15:32,594 --> Think of it! The long trip here standing in a truck, packed in! 2199 03:15:34,222 --> 03:15:37,182 --> Who knows if they knew what was in store? 2200 03:15:37,934 --> 03:15:40,310 --> They didn't trust anyone, that's for sure. 2201 03:15:40,437 --> 03:15:43,647 --> After months in the ghetto, you can imagine! 2202 03:15:45,066 --> 03:15:46,483 --> Yes? 2203 03:15:46,609 --> 03:15:49,445 --> I heard an SS man shout at them, 2204 03:15:49,571 --> 03:15:52,114 --> "You're going to be deloused 2205 03:15:52,907 --> 03:15:55,242 --> "and have a bath. 2206 03:15:55,744 --> 03:15:57,745 --> "You're going to work here." 2207 03:15:58,246 --> 03:16:01,498 --> The Jews consented. 2208 03:16:01,624 --> 03:16:04,918 --> They said, "Yes, that's what we want to do." 2209 03:16:06,588 --> 03:16:09,006 --> (Lanzmann) Was the castle big? 2210 03:16:10,467 --> 03:16:13,385 --> Pretty big, with huge front steps. 2211 03:16:13,511 --> 03:16:18,390 --> The SS man stood at the top of the steps. 2212 03:16:19,809 --> 03:16:22,519 --> (Lanzmann) Then what happened? 2213 03:16:22,645 --> 03:16:27,399 --> They were hustled into 2 or 3 big rooms on the first floor. 2214 03:16:28,026 --> 03:16:31,361 --> They had to undress, give up everything: 2215 03:16:31,488 --> 03:16:33,572 --> rings, gold, everything. 2216 03:16:36,993 --> 03:16:40,370 --> (Lanzmann) How long did the Jews stay there? 2217 03:16:40,830 --> 03:16:43,582 --> - Long enough to undress. - Yes. 2218 03:16:43,708 --> 03:16:46,084 --> Then, stark naked, 2219 03:16:46,211 --> 03:16:50,422 --> they had to run down more steps 2220 03:16:51,508 --> 03:16:53,592 --> to an underground corridor 2221 03:16:54,677 --> 03:16:58,388 --> that led back up to the ramp, where the gas van awaited them. 2222 03:17:00,225 --> 03:17:04,645 --> (Lanzmann) Did the Jews enter the van willingly? 2223 03:17:06,272 --> 03:17:08,649 --> No, they were beaten. 2224 03:17:09,150 --> 03:17:13,153 --> Blows fell everywhere, and the Jews understood. 2225 03:17:13,279 --> 03:17:15,030 --> They screamed. 2226 03:17:15,156 --> 03:17:17,032 --> It was frightful! 2227 03:17:17,784 --> 03:17:19,535 --> Frightful! 2228 03:17:21,621 --> 03:17:24,540 --> I know, because we went down to the cellar 2229 03:17:24,666 --> 03:17:26,875 --> when they were all in the van. 2230 03:17:27,001 --> 03:17:32,840 --> We opened the cells of the work detail, 2231 03:17:32,966 --> 03:17:35,259 --> the Jewish workers 2232 03:17:35,385 --> 03:17:40,013 --> who collected the things thrown out of the 1st-floor window into there. 2233 03:17:42,183 --> 03:17:44,601 --> (Lanzmann) Describe the gas vans. 2234 03:17:45,770 --> 03:17:48,188 --> (Schalling) Like moving vans. 2235 03:17:48,314 --> 03:17:50,190 --> Very big? 2236 03:17:50,316 --> 03:17:52,901 --> They stretched, say, 2237 03:17:53,027 --> 03:17:55,571 --> from here to the window. 2238 03:17:55,697 --> 03:17:57,739 --> Just big trucks, 2239 03:17:57,866 --> 03:18:01,201 --> like moving vans, with 2 rear doors. 2240 03:18:04,038 --> 03:18:06,540 --> What system was used? 2241 03:18:06,666 --> 03:18:10,919 --> How did they kill them? 2242 03:18:11,045 --> 03:18:14,214 --> - With exhaust fumes. - Exhaust fumes? 2243 03:18:14,716 --> 03:18:19,845 --> It went like this: a Pole yelled, "Gas!" 2244 03:18:19,971 --> 03:18:25,225 --> then the driver got under the van to hook up the pipe 2245 03:18:26,269 --> 03:18:31,315 --> that fed the gas into the van. 2246 03:18:31,441 --> 03:18:34,526 --> - Yes, but how? - From the motor. 2247 03:18:34,652 --> 03:18:36,987 --> Yes, but through what? 2248 03:18:37,113 --> 03:18:39,364 --> A pipe... a tube. 2249 03:18:39,490 --> 03:18:42,284 --> He fiddled around under the truck. 2250 03:18:42,410 --> 03:18:44,620 --> I'm not sure how. 2251 03:18:45,705 --> 03:18:48,665 --> It was just exhaust gas? 2252 03:18:49,667 --> 03:18:51,376 --> That's all. 2253 03:18:53,087 --> 03:18:54,338 --> (Lanzmann) Yes. 2254 03:18:55,131 --> 03:18:57,466 --> Who were the drivers? 2255 03:18:59,135 --> 03:19:00,844 --> SS men. 2256 03:19:00,970 --> 03:19:04,097 --> All those men were SS. 2257 03:19:04,223 --> 03:19:07,392 --> Were there many of these drivers? 2258 03:19:07,518 --> 03:19:09,019 --> I don't know. 2259 03:19:09,145 --> 03:19:11,772 --> Were there 2, 3, 5, 10? 2260 03:19:12,231 --> 03:19:15,651 --> Not that many. 2 or 3, that's all. 2261 03:19:15,777 --> 03:19:18,195 --> I think there were 2 vans, 2262 03:19:18,821 --> 03:19:22,074 --> one big, one smaller. 2263 03:19:22,200 --> 03:19:23,700 --> Yes? 2264 03:19:24,202 --> 03:19:28,872 --> Did the driver sit in the cabin of the van? 2265 03:19:29,374 --> 03:19:31,291 --> - Mrs. Uwe? - (Woman) No. 2266 03:19:32,377 --> 03:19:36,880 --> He climbed into the cabin after the doors were closed 2267 03:19:37,548 --> 03:19:39,841 --> and started the motor. 2268 03:19:40,468 --> 03:19:44,596 --> Did he race the motor? 2269 03:19:46,057 --> 03:19:48,767 --> I don't know. 2270 03:19:49,644 --> 03:19:54,314 --> Could you hear the sound of the motor? 2271 03:19:55,274 --> 03:19:59,319 --> Yes, from the gate we could hear it turn over. 2272 03:19:59,445 --> 03:20:03,448 --> Was it a loud noise? 2273 03:20:03,574 --> 03:20:07,577 --> The noise of a truck engine. 2274 03:20:07,704 --> 03:20:09,204 --> Yes. 2275 03:20:09,330 --> 03:20:15,168 --> The van was stationary while the motor ran? 2276 03:20:16,337 --> 03:20:19,715 --> - That's right. - Yes. 2277 03:20:19,841 --> 03:20:22,634 --> Then it started moving. 2278 03:20:23,094 --> 03:20:27,264 --> We opened the gate, and it headed for the woods. 2279 03:20:27,807 --> 03:20:30,350 --> Were the people already dead? 2280 03:20:30,476 --> 03:20:32,436 --> I don't know. 2281 03:20:32,562 --> 03:20:36,398 --> - It was quiet. No more screams. - No screams. 2282 03:20:36,524 --> 03:20:39,693 --> You couldn't hear anything as they drove by. 2283 03:20:47,702 --> 03:20:49,953 --> (Podchlebnik speaks Yiddish) 2284 03:20:52,999 --> 03:20:55,751 --> (Interpreter j&2 in French) He recalls it was 1941, 2285 03:20:55,877 --> 03:20:58,253 --> two days before the new year. 2286 03:20:58,379 --> 03:21:00,881 --> (Podchlebnik continues) 2287 03:21:01,382 --> 03:21:03,967 --> They were routed out at night... 2288 03:21:07,221 --> 03:21:10,599 --> ...and in the morning they reached Chelmno. 2289 03:21:15,938 --> 03:21:19,107 --> There was a castle there. 2290 03:21:27,742 --> 03:21:29,951 --> When he entered the castle courtyard... 2291 03:21:32,080 --> 03:21:34,664 --> ...he knew something awful was going on. 2292 03:21:36,209 --> 03:21:38,627 --> He already understood. 2293 03:21:38,753 --> 03:21:40,796 --> THE SITE OF THE CASTLE 2294 03:21:42,048 --> 03:21:43,882 --> (Podchlebnik continues) 2295 03:21:45,134 --> 03:21:48,178 --> They saw clothes and shoes... 2296 03:21:50,306 --> 03:21:52,307 --> ...scattered in the courtyard. 2297 03:21:57,355 --> 03:22:00,482 --> Yet they were alone there. 2298 03:22:00,608 --> 03:22:03,110 --> He knew his parents had been through there... 2299 03:22:04,737 --> 03:22:07,781 --> ...and there wasn't a Jew left. 2300 03:22:11,160 --> 03:22:13,120 --> (Podchlebnik continues) 2301 03:22:13,246 --> 03:22:16,373 --> They were taken down into a cellar. 2302 03:22:20,711 --> 03:22:24,798 --> On a wall was written, "No one leaves here alive." 2303 03:22:26,175 --> 03:22:28,051 --> Graffiti in Yiddish. 2304 03:22:29,637 --> 03:22:31,513 --> There were lots of names. 2305 03:22:33,766 --> 03:22:37,477 --> He thinks it was the Jews from villages around Chelmno 2306 03:22:37,603 --> 03:22:41,273 --> who had come before him, who had written their names. 2307 03:22:49,699 --> 03:22:52,701 --> - (Podchlebnik continues) - A few days after New Year's... 2308 03:22:55,705 --> 03:22:58,748 --> ...they heard people arrive in a truck one morning. 2309 03:23:00,543 --> 03:23:02,711 --> The people were taken out of the truck... 2310 03:23:05,214 --> 03:23:10,260 --> ...and up to the first floor of the castle. 2311 03:23:10,386 --> 03:23:14,598 --> The Germans lied, saying they were to be deloused. 2312 03:23:20,646 --> 03:23:23,773 --> They were chased down the other side... 2313 03:23:25,776 --> 03:23:27,777 --> ...where a van was waiting. 2314 03:23:28,905 --> 03:23:31,198 --> (Podchlebnik continues) 2315 03:23:33,993 --> 03:23:39,331 --> The Germans pushed and beat them with their weapons 2316 03:23:39,457 --> 03:23:42,167 --> to hustle them into the trucks faster. 2317 03:23:53,804 --> 03:23:55,639 --> (Podchlebnik continues) 2318 03:23:59,977 --> 03:24:03,939 --> He heard people praying, "Shma Israel"... 2319 03:24:06,943 --> 03:24:10,070 --> ...and he heard the van's rear doors being shut. 2320 03:24:14,867 --> 03:24:17,118 --> Their screams were heard, 2321 03:24:17,245 --> 03:24:20,205 --> becoming fainter and fainter... 2322 03:24:23,125 --> 03:24:27,212 --> ...and when there was total silence, 2323 03:24:27,338 --> 03:24:29,422 --> the van left. 2324 03:24:35,471 --> 03:24:37,472 --> (Podchlebnik continues) 2325 03:24:43,062 --> 03:24:48,066 --> He and the 4 others were brought out of the cellar. 2326 03:24:48,192 --> 03:24:49,734 --> They went upstairs... 2327 03:24:59,453 --> 03:25:03,373 --> ...and gathered up the clothes remaining 2328 03:25:03,499 --> 03:25:06,001 --> outside the supposed baths. 2329 03:25:15,052 --> 03:25:17,804 --> (Lanzmann) Did he understand then how they'd died? 2330 03:25:17,930 --> 03:25:20,849 --> (Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish) 2331 03:25:20,975 --> 03:25:23,601 --> MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK 2332 03:25:23,728 --> 03:25:29,482 --> SURVIVOR OF 1ST PERIOD OF EXTERMINATION AT CHELMNO 2333 03:25:29,608 --> 03:25:31,609 --> THE CASTLE PERIOD 2334 03:25:35,197 --> 03:25:40,076 --> (Interpreter) Yes, first because there had been rumours of it. 2335 03:25:40,202 --> 03:25:43,997 --> And when he went out, he saw the sealed vans, 2336 03:25:44,123 --> 03:25:45,790 --> so he knew. 2337 03:25:45,916 --> 03:25:51,755 --> (Lanzmann) He understood that people were gassed in the vans? 2338 03:25:51,881 --> 03:25:53,882 --> (Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish) 2339 03:26:05,770 --> 03:26:08,688 --> Yes, because he'd heard the screams 2340 03:26:08,814 --> 03:26:11,816 --> and heard how they weakened, 2341 03:26:12,818 --> 03:26:17,405 --> and later the vans were taken into the woods. 2342 03:26:17,531 --> 03:26:19,657 --> (Lanzmann) What were the vans like? 2343 03:26:19,784 --> 03:26:21,618 --> (Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish) 2344 03:26:47,770 --> 03:26:52,774 --> Like the ones that deliver cigarettes here. 2345 03:26:53,275 --> 03:26:56,861 --> They were enclosed, with double-leaf rear doors. 2346 03:26:56,987 --> 03:26:58,988 --> (Lanzmann) What colour? 2347 03:27:04,703 --> 03:27:08,748 --> The colour the Germans used, green, ordinary. 2348 03:27:11,919 --> 03:27:13,628 --> MARTHA MICHELSOHN 2349 03:27:13,754 --> 03:27:19,426 --> (Lanzmann) How many German families were there in Kulmhof, Chelmno? 2350 03:27:19,552 --> 03:27:22,804 --> (Speaks German) Ten or eleven, I'd say. 2351 03:27:24,890 --> 03:27:29,352 --> Germans from Volhynia and two families from the Reich, 2352 03:27:29,478 --> 03:27:31,980 --> the Bauers and us. 2353 03:27:32,857 --> 03:27:35,817 --> - And you? - Us, the Michelsohns. 2354 03:27:35,943 --> 03:27:40,155 --> How did you wind up in Kulmhof? 2355 03:27:43,451 --> 03:27:45,201 --> I was born in Laage, 2356 03:27:45,327 --> 03:27:49,372 --> and I was sent to Kulmhof. 2357 03:27:49,498 --> 03:27:55,211 --> They were looking for volunteer settlers, 2358 03:27:55,337 --> 03:27:57,088 --> and I signed up. 2359 03:27:57,214 --> 03:27:59,507 --> That's how I got there. 2360 03:27:59,633 --> 03:28:02,385 --> First in Warthbrucken, Kolo, 2361 03:28:02,511 --> 03:28:06,639 --> then Chelmno... Kulmhof. 2362 03:28:06,765 --> 03:28:08,933 --> Directly from Laage? 2363 03:28:09,059 --> 03:28:15,607 --> - No, I left from Munster. - Yes? 2364 03:28:15,733 --> 03:28:19,360 --> - Did you opt to go to Kulmhof? - Yes. 2365 03:28:19,487 --> 03:28:22,447 --> No, I asked for Wartheland. 2366 03:28:22,573 --> 03:28:23,781 --> Why? 2367 03:28:23,908 --> 03:28:25,366 --> (Murmurs In German) 2368 03:28:26,952 --> 03:28:29,245 --> A pioneering spirit! 2369 03:28:30,664 --> 03:28:34,626 --> - You were young? - Oh, yes, I was young. 2370 03:28:34,752 --> 03:28:38,254 --> - You wanted to be useful? - Yes. 2371 03:28:39,548 --> 03:28:45,136 --> What was your first impression of Wartheland? 2372 03:28:45,804 --> 03:28:49,140 --> It was primitive. Super-primitive. 2373 03:28:49,266 --> 03:28:50,850 --> Meaning...? 2374 03:28:50,976 --> 03:28:53,394 --> - Even worse... - Even worse? 2375 03:28:53,521 --> 03:28:55,396 --> Worse than primitive. 2376 03:28:55,523 --> 03:28:58,608 --> Difficult to understand, right? 2377 03:28:58,734 --> 03:29:00,109 --> Yes. 2378 03:29:01,362 --> 03:29:02,529 --> But why...? 2379 03:29:02,655 --> 03:29:07,992 --> The sanitary facilities were disastrous. 2380 03:29:08,118 --> 03:29:12,413 --> The only toilet was in Warthbrucken, in the town. 2381 03:29:12,540 --> 03:29:14,165 --> You had to go there. 2382 03:29:14,291 --> 03:29:18,753 --> The rest was a disaster. 2383 03:29:19,380 --> 03:29:24,384 --> - Why a disaster? - There were no toilets at all! 2384 03:29:26,220 --> 03:29:27,428 --> Yes? 2385 03:29:28,222 --> 03:29:31,224 --> There were privies. 2386 03:29:32,059 --> 03:29:38,106 --> I can't tell you how primitive it was. 2387 03:29:40,025 --> 03:29:41,109 --> Astonishing! 2388 03:29:41,235 --> 03:29:46,114 --> Why did you choose such a primitive place? 2389 03:29:46,240 --> 03:29:49,784 --> I was young, you know. 2390 03:29:49,910 --> 03:29:52,704 --> You can't imagine such places exist. 2391 03:29:52,830 --> 03:29:55,832 --> You don't believe it. But that's how it was. 2392 03:30:00,754 --> 03:30:02,922 --> (Michelsohn) This was the whole village. 2393 03:30:03,757 --> 03:30:06,134 --> A very small village, 2394 03:30:08,596 --> 03:30:10,388 --> straggling along the road. 2395 03:30:10,514 --> 03:30:13,808 --> Just a few houses. 2396 03:30:15,352 --> 03:30:19,355 --> There was the church, the castle, 2397 03:30:19,481 --> 03:30:22,025 --> a store, too, 2398 03:30:22,151 --> 03:30:25,486 --> the administrative building and the school. 2399 03:30:26,697 --> 03:30:29,407 --> The castle was next to the church, 2400 03:30:29,533 --> 03:30:32,368 --> with a high board fence around both. 2401 03:30:32,494 --> 03:30:34,329 --> (Lanzmann) Yes. 2402 03:30:37,666 --> 03:30:41,669 --> How far was your house from the church? 2403 03:30:42,379 --> 03:30:46,174 --> (Michelsohn) It was just opposite... 150 feet. 2404 03:30:47,176 --> 03:30:50,803 --> MRS. MICHELSOHN WAS THE NAZI TEACHER'S WIFE 2405 03:30:53,098 --> 03:30:55,433 --> (Lanzmann) Did you see the gas vans? 2406 03:30:55,559 --> 03:30:57,060 --> No... 2407 03:30:57,186 --> 03:31:00,521 --> Yes, from the outside. They shuttled back and forth. 2408 03:31:00,648 --> 03:31:04,942 --> I never looked inside. I didn't see Jews in them. 2409 03:31:06,612 --> 03:31:08,696 --> I only saw things from outside, 2410 03:31:08,822 --> 03:31:12,283 --> the Jews' arrival, their disposition, 2411 03:31:12,826 --> 03:31:15,953 --> how they were loaded aboard. 2412 03:31:19,458 --> 03:31:21,376 --> Since World War I, 2413 03:31:21,502 --> 03:31:25,213 --> the castle had been in ruins. 2414 03:31:26,590 --> 03:31:29,801 --> Only part of it could still be used. 2415 03:31:30,803 --> 03:31:35,890 --> That's where the Jews were taken. 2416 03:31:42,022 --> 03:31:46,025 --> This ruined castle was used... 2417 03:31:46,151 --> 03:31:50,113 --> For housing and delousing the Poles, and so on. 2418 03:31:50,239 --> 03:31:52,699 --> - The Jews? - Yes, the Jews. 2419 03:31:52,825 --> 03:31:58,287 --> Why do you call them "Poles" and not "Jews"? 2420 03:31:58,414 --> 03:32:01,749 --> - Sometimes, I get them mixed up. - Yes. 2421 03:32:01,875 --> 03:32:04,335 --> There's a difference between Poles and Jews? 2422 03:32:04,461 --> 03:32:06,754 --> Oh, yes! Oh, yes! 2423 03:32:06,880 --> 03:32:09,048 --> What's the difference? 2424 03:32:10,426 --> 03:32:11,801 --> (Laughs) 2425 03:32:12,928 --> 03:32:16,139 --> The Poles weren't exterminated, 2426 03:32:16,598 --> 03:32:18,641 --> and the Jews were. 2427 03:32:18,767 --> 03:32:22,603 --> That's the difference. An external difference, right? 2428 03:32:23,272 --> 03:32:25,148 --> And the inner difference? 2429 03:32:25,274 --> 03:32:27,483 --> I can't assess that. 2430 03:32:27,609 --> 03:32:33,573 --> I don't know enough about psychology and anthropology. 2431 03:32:34,742 --> 03:32:37,785 --> The difference between the Poles and the Jews? 2432 03:32:37,911 --> 03:32:40,788 --> Anyway, they couldn't stand each other. 2433 03:32:43,333 --> 03:32:45,626 --> (In French) On January 19, 1942, 2434 03:32:45,753 --> 03:32:48,838 --> the rabbi of Grabow, Jacob Schulmann, 2435 03:32:48,964 --> 03:32:52,800 --> wrote the following letter to his friends in Lodz: 2436 03:32:53,927 --> 03:32:55,386 --> "My very dear friends, 2437 03:32:55,512 --> 03:33:00,558 --> "I didn't write sooner: I wasn't sure of what I'd heard. 2438 03:33:00,684 --> 03:33:04,729 --> "Alas, to our great grief, we now know all. 2439 03:33:05,355 --> 03:33:09,734 --> "I've spoken to an eyewitness who managed to escape. 2440 03:33:09,860 --> 03:33:11,652 --> "He told me everything. 2441 03:33:11,779 --> 03:33:16,073 --> "They're exterminated in Chelmno, near Dombie, 2442 03:33:16,200 --> 03:33:19,202 --> "and they're all buried in the nearby Rzeszow forest. 2443 03:33:19,745 --> 03:33:24,749 --> "The Jews are killed in 2 ways: by shooting or gas. 2444 03:33:24,875 --> 03:33:29,587 --> "It's just happened to thousands of Lodz Jews. 2445 03:33:30,923 --> 03:33:35,051 --> "Do not think that this is being written by a madman. 2446 03:33:35,177 --> 03:33:39,013 --> "Alas, it is the tragic, horrible truth. 2447 03:33:39,973 --> 03:33:44,477 --> "Horror, horror. Man, shed thy clothes, 2448 03:33:44,603 --> 03:33:47,772 --> "cover thy head with ashes, run in the streets 2449 03:33:47,898 --> 03:33:50,024 --> "and dance in thy madness. 2450 03:33:51,401 --> 03:33:54,821 --> "I am so weary that my pen can no longer write. 2451 03:33:55,280 --> 03:33:58,783 --> "Creator of the universe, help us!" 2452 03:33:59,827 --> 03:34:04,121 --> The creator did not help the Jews of Grabow. 2453 03:34:04,248 --> 03:34:08,835 --> With their rabbi, they all died in the gas van at Chelmno 2454 03:34:08,961 --> 03:34:10,837 --> a few weeks later. 2455 03:34:10,963 --> 03:34:15,007 --> Chelmno is only 12 miles from Grabow. 2456 03:34:51,587 --> 03:34:53,588 --> (Cockerel crowing) 2457 03:35:01,305 --> 03:35:04,515 --> (Lanzmann) Were there a lot of Jews here in Grabow? 2458 03:35:04,641 --> 03:35:06,434 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 2459 03:35:06,560 --> 03:35:09,520 --> - (Woman speaks Polish) - A lot, quite a few. 2460 03:35:13,483 --> 03:35:15,860 --> (Interpreter) They were sent to Chelmno. 2461 03:35:15,986 --> 03:35:19,071 --> (Lanzmann) Has she always lived near the synagogue? 2462 03:35:19,197 --> 03:35:21,949 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 2463 03:35:29,958 --> 03:35:33,169 --> The Polish word is "Buzinica" not synagogue. 2464 03:35:33,295 --> 03:35:35,129 --> (Chatting in Polish) 2465 03:35:43,388 --> 03:35:46,265 --> She says it's now a furniture warehouse 2466 03:35:46,391 --> 03:35:50,811 --> but they didn't harm it from a religious point of view. 2467 03:35:50,938 --> 03:35:54,440 --> It hasn't been... desecrated. 2468 03:35:55,692 --> 03:35:57,985 --> Does she remember the rabbi at the synagogue? 2469 03:35:58,111 --> 03:36:00,863 --> (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish) 2470 03:36:01,698 --> 03:36:03,741 --> (Woman speaks Polish) 2471 03:36:04,618 --> 03:36:07,244 --> THE SYNAGOGUE IN GRABOW 2472 03:36:07,371 --> 03:36:11,958 --> She says she's 80 now, and her memory isn't too good, 2473 03:36:12,084 --> 03:36:14,919 --> and the Jews have been gone for 40 years. 2474 03:36:33,814 --> 03:36:36,941 --> Barbara, tell this couple they live in a lovely house. 2475 03:36:37,067 --> 03:36:38,901 --> (Speaks Polish) 2476 03:36:40,779 --> 03:36:43,781 --> Do they agree? Do they think it's a lovely house? 2477 03:36:46,785 --> 03:36:50,121 --> Yes. 2478 03:36:54,126 --> 03:36:58,337 --> Tell me about the decoration of this house, the doors, 2479 03:36:58,463 --> 03:37:00,548 --> what's it mean? 2480 03:37:07,139 --> 03:37:10,057 --> People used to do carvings like that. 2481 03:37:10,183 --> 03:37:12,226 --> Did they decorate it that way? 2482 03:37:13,895 --> 03:37:15,021 --> No. 2483 03:37:15,147 --> 03:37:18,190 --> - No, it was the Jews again. - The Jews did it? 2484 03:37:19,317 --> 03:37:22,111 --> The door's a good century old. 2485 03:37:22,237 --> 03:37:24,238 --> Did Jews own this house? 2486 03:37:27,534 --> 03:37:29,410 --> Yes, all these houses. 2487 03:37:29,536 --> 03:37:32,788 --> All these houses on the square were Jewish? 2488 03:37:36,710 --> 03:37:42,173 --> Jews lived in all the ones in front, on the street. 2489 03:37:42,299 --> 03:37:45,092 --> Yes. Where did the Poles live? 2490 03:37:48,013 --> 03:37:51,140 --> In the courtyards, where the privies were. 2491 03:37:51,266 --> 03:37:53,768 --> Where the privies were? 2492 03:37:54,811 --> 03:37:57,813 --> There used to be a store here. 2493 03:37:57,939 --> 03:37:59,190 --> What kind? 2494 03:38:00,609 --> 03:38:02,485 --> A food store. 2495 03:38:02,611 --> 03:38:05,654 --> - Owned by Jews? - Yes. 2496 03:38:06,156 --> 03:38:09,158 --> So the Jews lived in the front, 2497 03:38:09,284 --> 03:38:12,787 --> and the Poles in the courtyard with the privies. 2498 03:38:19,795 --> 03:38:21,045 --> Yes. 2499 03:38:22,047 --> 03:38:24,340 --> How long have these two lived here? 2500 03:38:24,466 --> 03:38:26,717 --> (Barbara speaks Polish) 2501 03:38:31,640 --> 03:38:34,141 --> 15 years. 2502 03:38:34,267 --> 03:38:36,936 --> (Lanzmann) Where did they live before? 2503 03:38:37,395 --> 03:38:38,854 --> (Wife replies) 2504 03:38:38,980 --> 03:38:40,981 --> In a courtyard across the square. 2505 03:38:41,108 --> 03:38:42,942 --> (Lanzmann) They've got rich. 2506 03:38:43,068 --> 03:38:44,610 --> - Them? - Yes. 2507 03:38:46,404 --> 03:38:47,988 --> - Yes. - (Laughter) 2508 03:38:48,115 --> 03:38:50,116 --> (Lanzmann) How did they get rich? 2509 03:38:54,121 --> 03:38:55,830 --> They worked. 2510 03:38:55,956 --> 03:39:01,293 --> - How old is the gentleman? - He's 70. 2511 03:39:01,419 --> 03:39:03,546 --> He looks young and healthy. 2512 03:39:06,800 --> 03:39:08,342 --> (Barbara laughs) 2513 03:39:08,468 --> 03:39:11,137 --> Do they remember the Jews of Grabow? 2514 03:39:13,682 --> 03:39:17,017 --> Yes. And when they were deported, too. 2515 03:39:17,144 --> 03:39:20,729 --> They recall the deportation of the Grabow Jews? 2516 03:39:21,731 --> 03:39:23,566 --> He says he speaks "Jew" well. 2517 03:39:23,692 --> 03:39:25,943 --> - He speaks "Jew"? - Yes. 2518 03:39:27,863 --> 03:39:30,656 --> As a kid he played with Jews so he speaks "Jew". 2519 03:39:30,782 --> 03:39:35,536 --> (Husband continues) 2520 03:39:44,379 --> 03:39:49,091 --> First, they grouped them there, where that restaurant is, 2521 03:39:49,217 --> 03:39:51,927 --> or in this square, and took their gold. 2522 03:40:08,278 --> 03:40:11,947 --> An elder among the Jews collected the gold 2523 03:40:12,073 --> 03:40:15,075 --> and turned it over to the police. 2524 03:40:15,202 --> 03:40:19,914 --> That done, the Jews were put in the Catholic church. 2525 03:40:20,040 --> 03:40:23,292 --> (Lanzmann) A lot of gold? 2526 03:40:25,128 --> 03:40:27,671 --> Yes, the Jews had gold... 2527 03:40:28,131 --> 03:40:31,133 --> (Wife replies) 2528 03:40:31,259 --> 03:40:34,094 --> ...and some handsome candelabras. 2529 03:40:44,898 --> 03:40:48,901 --> (Lanzmann) Did the Poles know the Jews would be killed at Chelmno? 2530 03:40:49,027 --> 03:40:50,861 --> (Barbara speaks Polish) 2531 03:40:56,243 --> 03:40:57,868 --> Yes, they knew. 2532 03:40:59,537 --> 03:41:01,956 --> The Jews knew it, too. 2533 03:41:03,083 --> 03:41:06,043 --> (Lanzmann) Did the Jews try to do something about it, 2534 03:41:06,169 --> 03:41:08,629 --> to rebel, to escape? 2535 03:41:09,339 --> 03:41:11,340 --> (Barbara speaks Polish) 2536 03:41:24,771 --> 03:41:26,772 --> The young tried to run away... 2537 03:41:29,943 --> 03:41:32,319 --> ...but the Germans caught them 2538 03:41:32,445 --> 03:41:36,031 --> and maybe killed them even more savagely. 2539 03:41:36,157 --> 03:41:38,158 --> (Man continues) 2540 03:41:45,625 --> 03:41:50,337 --> In every town and village, 2 or 3 streets were closed, 2541 03:41:50,463 --> 03:41:52,089 --> and the Jews were kept under guard. 2542 03:41:52,215 --> 03:41:54,133 --> They couldn't leave there. 2543 03:41:54,843 --> 03:41:56,677 --> (Man continues) 2544 03:42:00,640 --> 03:42:04,393 --> Then they were locked in the Polish church here in Grabow 2545 03:42:04,519 --> 03:42:07,021 --> and later taken to Chelmno. 2546 03:42:08,898 --> 03:42:12,568 --> THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE BACKGROUND 2547 03:42:21,870 --> 03:42:24,621 --> (People chatting in Polish) 2548 03:42:38,053 --> 03:42:41,805 --> The Germans threw children as small as these... 2549 03:42:41,931 --> 03:42:44,683 --> - Yes? - ...into the trucks by the legs. 2550 03:42:44,809 --> 03:42:46,602 --> She saw that? 2551 03:42:47,437 --> 03:42:50,647 --> - Old folks too. - Threw kids into the trucks. 2552 03:42:50,774 --> 03:42:54,276 --> The Poles knew the Jews would be gassed in Chelmno? 2553 03:42:54,861 --> 03:42:56,528 --> Did this gentleman know? 2554 03:42:59,449 --> 03:43:01,158 --> - (Lanzmann) Yes? - Yes. 2555 03:43:05,872 --> 03:43:09,750 --> (Lanzmann) Does he recall the Jews' deportation from Grabow? 2556 03:43:11,503 --> 03:43:12,961 --> (Barbara) Yes. 2557 03:43:13,088 --> 03:43:15,798 --> (Man continues) 2558 03:43:15,924 --> 03:43:18,467 --> At that time, he worked in the mill. 2559 03:43:18,593 --> 03:43:22,262 --> - (Lanzmann) There, opposite? - Yes, and they saw it all. 2560 03:43:22,972 --> 03:43:26,517 --> What did he think of it? Was it a sad sight? 2561 03:43:26,643 --> 03:43:28,477 --> (Barbara speaks Polish) 2562 03:43:34,943 --> 03:43:36,443 --> Yes, it was... 2563 03:43:36,986 --> 03:43:38,487 --> Yes. 2564 03:43:40,407 --> 03:43:44,701 --> Yes. How could you see that without sadness? 2565 03:43:44,828 --> 03:43:46,995 --> (Hoof beats) 2566 03:43:52,168 --> 03:43:54,628 --> What trades were the Jews in? 2567 03:44:02,011 --> 03:44:04,430 --> They were tanners, tradesmen... 2568 03:44:07,350 --> 03:44:08,851 --> ...tailors. 2569 03:44:15,942 --> 03:44:21,905 --> They sold things... eggs, chickens, butter. 2570 03:44:25,243 --> 03:44:27,411 --> (Barbara) There were a lot of tailors... 2571 03:44:29,956 --> 03:44:31,457 --> ...tradesmen, too. 2572 03:44:31,583 --> 03:44:33,083 --> (Man continues) 2573 03:44:33,209 --> 03:44:35,919 --> But most were tanners. 2574 03:44:39,632 --> 03:44:44,720 --> - They had beards and side locks. - (Lanzmann) Yes. 2575 03:44:44,846 --> 03:44:47,055 --> He says they weren't pretty. 2576 03:44:47,182 --> 03:44:49,141 --> (Lanzmann) They weren't pretty? 2577 03:44:50,894 --> 03:44:52,769 --> - They stank, too. - They stank? 2578 03:44:52,896 --> 03:44:54,354 --> - Yes. - Yes? 2579 03:44:54,481 --> 03:44:56,982 --> Why did they stink? 2580 03:44:58,443 --> 03:45:02,321 --> Because they were tanners, and the hides stink. 2581 03:45:03,740 --> 03:45:05,741 --> (Chatting in Polish) 2582 03:45:06,367 --> 03:45:08,368 --> The Jewish women were beautiful. 2583 03:45:10,955 --> 03:45:13,665 --> The Poles liked to make love with them. 2584 03:45:13,791 --> 03:45:16,752 --> Are Polish women glad there are no Jewesses left? 2585 03:45:16,878 --> 03:45:18,712 --> (Woman continues in Polish) 2586 03:45:24,469 --> 03:45:27,513 --> (Lanzmann) What did she say? 2587 03:45:27,639 --> 03:45:31,892 --> (Barbara) The women who are her age now 2588 03:45:32,018 --> 03:45:34,645 --> also liked to make love. 2589 03:45:34,771 --> 03:45:37,648 --> (Lanzmann) So the Jewish women were competitors? 2590 03:45:41,402 --> 03:45:44,947 --> (Barbara) It's crazy how the Poles liked the little Jewesses! 2591 03:45:45,073 --> 03:45:47,074 --> Do the Poles miss the little Jewesses? 2592 03:45:51,788 --> 03:45:54,831 --> (Barbara) Naturally, such beautiful women! 2593 03:45:54,958 --> 03:45:58,544 --> Why? What made them so beautiful? 2594 03:46:07,762 --> 03:46:10,889 --> (Barbara) Because they did nothing. Polish women worked. 2595 03:46:11,015 --> 03:46:15,519 --> Jewish women only thought of their beauty and clothes. 2596 03:46:15,645 --> 03:46:19,064 --> (Lanzmann) So Jewesses did no work? 2597 03:46:19,190 --> 03:46:20,983 --> - None at all. - Why not? 2598 03:46:23,820 --> 03:46:28,657 --> - They were rich. - (Women continue speaking) 2599 03:46:28,783 --> 03:46:32,202 --> The Poles had to serve them and work. 2600 03:46:32,328 --> 03:46:34,538 --> (Lanzmann) I heard her use the word "capital." 2601 03:46:35,707 --> 03:46:38,292 --> (Barbara) The capital was in the hands of the Jews. 2602 03:46:38,418 --> 03:46:40,586 --> (Lanzmann) Yes... You didn't translate that. 2603 03:46:41,504 --> 03:46:45,716 --> Ask her again. So the capital was in the Jews' hands?195894

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