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1
00:04:45,535 --> 00:04:48,787 -->
(Srebnik synger på polsk) j & A lille hvide hus
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j & dvæler i min hukommelse
3
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j & Af dette lille hvide hus
4
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j & jeg drømmer hver nat
5
00:04:59,674 --> 00:05:02,759 -->
j & Vinduerne i det lille hus
6
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j & smukt skinne i solen
7
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j & Som om en eller andens øjne
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j & påfyldning med tårer
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j & Der var så meget lykke i det lille hus
10
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j& And so many joyous days
11
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j& When I remember those blissful moments
12
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j& My heart trembles
13
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j& A little white house
14
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j& Lingers in my memory
15
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j& Of that little white house
16
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j& I dream each night j&
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(Man j& 1 speaking Polish)
18
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(Female interpreter in French) He was 13 and a half years old.
19
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He had a lovely singing voice and we heard him.
20
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j& A little white house
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j& Lingers in my memory
22
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j& Of that little white house
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j& I dream each night
24
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j& The windows of that little house
25
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j& Beautifully shine in the sun
26
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j& As if someone's eyes
27
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j& Were filling with tears j&
28
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(Man j&3 speaking Polish)
29
00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:32,641 -->
(Interpreter) When I heard him again, my heart beat faster,
30
00:06:32,767 --> 00:06:36,144 -->
because what happened here... was a murder.
31
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I really relived what happened.
32
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(Sighs and coughs)
33
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(In German) It's hard to recognise, but it was here.
34
00:07:49,844 --> 00:07:53,847 -->
They burned people here.
35
00:07:53,973 --> 00:07:56,641 -->
A lot of people were burned here.
36
00:08:07,278 --> 00:08:09,696 -->
Yes, this is the place.
37
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(Crow caws)
38
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No one ever left here again.
39
00:08:57,578 --> 00:09:00,038 -->
The gas vans came in here...
40
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There were two huge ovens...
41
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(Sighs)
42
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...and after ward, the bodies were thrown
43
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into these ovens,
44
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and the flames reached to the sky.
45
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- (Lanzmann in German) To the sky? - Ja.
46
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It was terrible.
47
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No one can describe it.
48
00:09:38,828 --> 00:09:42,080 -->
No one can...
49
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recreate what happened here.
50
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Impossible! And no one can understand it.
51
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Even I, here, now.
52
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I can't believe I'm here.
53
00:10:07,857 --> 00:10:10,650 -->
No, I just can't believe it.
54
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It was always this peaceful here.
55
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When they burned 2,000 people... Jews... every day,
56
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it was just as peaceful.
57
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No one shouted. Everyone went about his work.
58
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It was silent. Peaceful.
59
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Just as it is now.
60
00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:59,074 -->
(Srebnik singing in German)
61
00:11:04,872 --> 00:11:06,498 -->
(Cattle lowing)
62
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j& You, girl, don't you cry
63
00:11:19,303 --> 00:11:22,305 -->
j& Don't be so sad
64
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j& For the dear summer is nearing
65
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j& And I'll return with it
66
00:11:28,187 --> 00:11:31,398 -->
j& A mug of red wine, a slice of roast
67
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j& That's what the girls give their soldiers
68
00:11:42,118 --> 00:11:45,412 -->
j& When the soldiers march along
69
00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:48,832 -->
j& The girls open their doors and windows... j&
70
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(Man j& 1 speaking Polish)
71
00:12:00,469 --> 00:12:05,098 -->
(Interpreter in French) They thought the Germans made him sing on the river.
72
00:12:05,224 --> 00:12:07,350 -->
(Men speaking Polish)
73
00:12:09,395 --> 00:12:12,313 -->
(Interpreter) He was a toy to amuse them.
74
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,567 -->
He had to do it.
75
00:12:15,693 --> 00:12:18,153 -->
He sang, but his heart wept.
76
00:12:22,908 --> 00:12:26,161 -->
(Lanzmann in French) Do their hearts weep thinking about that now?
77
00:12:26,287 --> 00:12:28,913 -->
- (Men reply) - (Interpreter) Certainly, very much so.
78
00:12:29,039 --> 00:12:31,708 -->
(Man j&2 continues)
79
00:12:36,088 --> 00:12:38,965 -->
(Interpreter) They still talk about it around the family table.
80
00:12:39,091 --> 00:12:42,177 -->
(Man j&2 continues)
81
00:12:42,303 --> 00:12:45,054 -->
It was public, so everyone knew of it.
82
00:12:46,599 --> 00:12:48,391 -->
(Speaks Polish)
83
00:12:50,770 --> 00:12:54,105 -->
He said that was true German irony...
84
00:12:56,984 --> 00:12:59,652 -->
...people were being killed, and he had to sing.
85
00:13:01,322 --> 00:13:03,448 -->
That's what I thought.
86
00:13:06,452 --> 00:13:09,204 -->
(Lanzmann) What died in him in Chelmno?
87
00:13:10,414 --> 00:13:12,791 -->
(Speaks Yiddish)
88
00:13:18,214 --> 00:13:20,715 -->
(Female Interpreter j&2 in French) Everything died.
89
00:13:20,841 --> 00:13:23,134 -->
But he's only human, and he wants to live.
90
00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:25,595 -->
So he must forget.
91
00:13:26,931 --> 00:13:30,642 -->
The other survivor: MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK - ISRAEL
92
00:13:32,186 --> 00:13:34,187 -->
(Interpreter j&2 speaks Yiddish)
93
00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:51,412 -->
He thanks God for what remains and that he can forget.
94
00:13:51,539 --> 00:13:53,623 -->
And let's not talk about that.
95
00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:59,420 -->
(Lanzmann) Does he think it's good to talk about it?
96
00:13:59,547 --> 00:14:02,882 -->
(Interpreter j&2 speaks Yiddish)
97
00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:08,763 -->
For me it's not good.
98
00:14:13,435 --> 00:14:16,229 -->
(Lanzmann) Then why is he talking about it?
99
00:14:16,355 --> 00:14:18,773 -->
(Speaking Yiddish)
100
00:14:32,121 --> 00:14:35,373 -->
Because you're insisting on it.
101
00:14:35,499 --> 00:14:40,420 -->
He was sent books on the Eichmann trial, where he was a witness,
102
00:14:40,546 --> 00:14:43,006 -->
and he didn't even read them.
103
00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:51,598 -->
(Lanzmann) He survived, but is he really alive, or...?
104
00:15:16,707 --> 00:15:19,834 -->
(Interpreter) At the time, he felt as if he were dead,
105
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,129 -->
because he never thought he'd survive,
106
00:15:23,255 --> 00:15:26,090 -->
but... he's alive.
107
00:15:30,846 --> 00:15:33,389 -->
(Lanzmann) Why does he smile all the time?
108
00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:45,193 -->
(Interpreter) What do you want him to do, cry?
109
00:15:45,319 --> 00:15:47,320 -->
Sometimes you smile, sometimes you cry.
110
00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,908 -->
And if you're alive, it's better to smile.
111
00:15:56,205 --> 00:16:00,500 -->
(Lanzmann in French) Why was she so curious about this story?
112
00:16:00,626 --> 00:16:04,087 -->
(Female Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew)
113
00:16:04,213 --> 00:16:06,214 -->
(Speaking Hebrew)
114
00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:11,052 -->
HANNA ZAIDL - ISRAEL
115
00:16:11,595 --> 00:16:15,598 -->
DAUGHTER OF MOTKE ZAIDL, SURVIVOR OF VILNA (LITHUANIA)
116
00:16:46,755 --> 00:16:49,465 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in French) It's a long story.
117
00:16:49,591 --> 00:16:54,137 -->
As a child, I had little contact with my father.
118
00:16:54,263 --> 00:16:57,807 -->
He went out to work, and I didn't see much of him.
119
00:16:57,933 --> 00:17:01,519 -->
Besides, he was a silent man, he didn't talk to me.
120
00:17:01,645 --> 00:17:06,065 -->
And when I grew up and was strong enough to face him,
121
00:17:06,191 --> 00:17:09,777 -->
I questioned him. I never stopped questioning him
122
00:17:09,903 --> 00:17:14,073 -->
until I got at the scraps oftruth he couldn't tell me.
123
00:17:14,199 --> 00:17:17,910 -->
It came out haltingly.
124
00:17:18,037 --> 00:17:20,079 -->
I had to tear the details out of him,
125
00:17:20,205 --> 00:17:26,002 -->
and finally, when Mr. Lanzmann came,
126
00:17:26,128 --> 00:17:30,798 -->
I heard the whole story for the second time.
127
00:17:30,924 --> 00:17:32,508 -->
MOTKE ZAIDL
128
00:17:34,428 --> 00:17:38,556 -->
BEN SHEMEN FOREST, ISRAEL
129
00:17:43,437 --> 00:17:46,481 -->
(Motke speaks Hebrew)
130
00:17:59,453 --> 00:18:03,706 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in French) The place resembles Ponary: the forest, the ditches.
131
00:18:03,832 --> 00:18:06,918 -->
It's as if the bodies were burned here.
132
00:18:07,044 --> 00:18:09,962 -->
Except there were no stones in Ponary.
133
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:15,009 -->
PONARY: FOREST WHERE MOST VILNA JEWS WERE MASSACRED
134
00:18:15,135 --> 00:18:20,181 -->
(Lanzmann) But the Lithuanian forests are denser than the Israeli forest, no?
135
00:18:20,307 --> 00:18:24,227 -->
(Interpreter j&3 speaks Hebrew)
136
00:18:24,353 --> 00:18:27,396 -->
- (Motke replies) - Of course.
137
00:18:27,523 --> 00:18:30,942 -->
(Motke continues)
138
00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:37,156 -->
(Interpreter) The trees are similar, but taller and fuller in Lithuania.
139
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,578 -->
FOREST OF THE EXTERMINATION CAMP AT SOBIBOR, POLAND
140
00:18:42,704 --> 00:18:46,290 -->
(Lanzmann in French) Is there still hunting here in Sobibor forest?
141
00:18:46,416 --> 00:18:49,627 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 speaks Polish)
142
00:18:49,753 --> 00:18:52,839 -->
(Man replies in Polish)
143
00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:04,016 -->
(Interpreter) Yes, there are lots of animals of all kinds.
144
00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:10,606 -->
(Lanzmann) Was there hunting then?
145
00:19:10,732 --> 00:19:13,693 -->
(Man replies in Polish)
146
00:19:13,819 --> 00:19:17,071 -->
(Interpreter) Only man hunting.
147
00:19:19,449 --> 00:19:20,992 -->
JAN PIWONSKI
148
00:19:21,118 --> 00:19:23,202 -->
(Speaks Polish)
149
00:19:38,468 --> 00:19:41,262 -->
(Interpreter) Some victims tried to escape.
150
00:19:46,768 --> 00:19:49,520 -->
But they didn't know the area.
151
00:19:54,193 --> 00:19:58,946 -->
At times people heard explosions in the minefield.
152
00:19:59,072 --> 00:20:01,782 -->
Sometimes they'd find a deer,
153
00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:05,411 -->
and sometimes a poor Jew who tried to escape.
154
00:20:19,343 --> 00:20:22,053 -->
(Piwonski continues)
155
00:20:28,852 --> 00:20:32,563 -->
That's the charm of our forests: the silence and beauty.
156
00:20:41,823 --> 00:20:46,953 -->
(Piwonski continues)
157
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:50,414 -->
But it wasn't always so silent here.
158
00:21:00,634 --> 00:21:05,012 -->
There was a time when it was full of screams
159
00:21:05,138 --> 00:21:06,639 -->
and gunshots,
160
00:21:09,101 --> 00:21:10,601 -->
of dogs' barking.
161
00:21:11,937 --> 00:21:14,230 -->
(Piwonski continues)
162
00:21:22,614 --> 00:21:25,491 -->
And that period especially
163
00:21:25,617 --> 00:21:28,286 -->
is engraved on the minds of the people
164
00:21:28,412 --> 00:21:30,913 -->
who lived here then.
165
00:21:35,252 --> 00:21:37,753 -->
(Piwonski continues)
166
00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:47,888 -->
After the revolt, the Germans decided to liquidate the camp,
167
00:21:48,015 --> 00:21:50,349 -->
and early in the winter of 1943,
168
00:21:50,475 --> 00:21:54,395 -->
they planted pines that were three or four years old
169
00:21:54,521 --> 00:21:56,647 -->
to camouflage all the traces.
170
00:21:56,773 --> 00:21:58,190 -->
That screen of trees?
171
00:21:58,317 --> 00:21:59,525 -->
Yes.
172
00:21:59,651 --> 00:22:01,694 -->
(Lanzmann) That's where the mass graves were?
173
00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:04,071 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 speaks Polish)
174
00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:08,200 -->
Yes.
175
00:22:08,327 --> 00:22:10,661 -->
(Piwonski continues)
176
00:22:19,963 --> 00:22:23,132 -->
When he first came here in 1944,
177
00:22:23,258 --> 00:22:27,094 -->
you couldn't guess what had happened here,
178
00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:32,058 -->
that these trees were hiding the secret of a death camp.
179
00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:39,815 -->
(Lanzmann) How did he react, the first time he unloaded corpses,
180
00:22:39,941 --> 00:22:42,902 -->
when the gas van doors were opened?
181
00:22:43,028 --> 00:22:45,613 -->
(Interpreter j&2 speaks Yiddish)
182
00:22:56,541 --> 00:22:59,126 -->
What could he do? He cried.
183
00:23:07,803 --> 00:23:10,930 -->
The third day, he saw his wife and children.
184
00:23:31,952 --> 00:23:35,663 -->
He placed his wife in the grave and asked to be killed.
185
00:23:35,789 --> 00:23:38,707 -->
The Germans said he was strong enough to work,
186
00:23:38,834 --> 00:23:41,252 -->
that he wouldn't be killed yet.
187
00:23:58,728 --> 00:24:00,813 -->
(Lanzmann) Was the weather very cold?
188
00:24:02,357 --> 00:24:04,608 -->
(Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish)
189
00:24:04,734 --> 00:24:07,319 -->
(Podchlebnik replies)
190
00:24:09,948 --> 00:24:15,077 -->
It was in the winter of 1942, in early January.
191
00:24:18,707 --> 00:24:22,751 -->
(Lanzmann) At that time, the bodies weren't burned, just buried?
192
00:24:24,754 --> 00:24:26,881 -->
(Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish)
193
00:24:29,968 --> 00:24:31,844 -->
(Podchlebnik replies)
194
00:24:49,696 --> 00:24:53,908 -->
No, they were buried, and each row was covered with dirt.
195
00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:56,035 -->
They weren't being burned yet.
196
00:24:56,161 --> 00:24:58,412 -->
There were around four or five layers.
197
00:24:58,538 --> 00:25:01,415 -->
The ditches were funnel-shaped.
198
00:25:01,875 --> 00:25:04,168 -->
(Podchlebnik continues)
199
00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:13,469 -->
They dumped the bodies in these ditches,
200
00:25:13,595 --> 00:25:17,681 -->
and they had to lay them out like herrings, head to foot.
201
00:25:28,193 --> 00:25:33,239 -->
(Lanzmann) So it was they who dug up and burned all the Jews of Vilna?
202
00:25:33,907 --> 00:25:34,907 -->
Yes.
203
00:25:34,908 --> 00:25:37,993 -->
(Man speaks Hebrew)
204
00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:42,248 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in French) In early January 1944,
205
00:25:42,374 --> 00:25:44,917 -->
we began digging up the bodies.
206
00:25:46,127 --> 00:25:48,170 -->
(Man continues)
207
00:25:55,762 --> 00:25:58,597 -->
When the last mass grave was opened,
208
00:25:59,099 --> 00:26:01,350 -->
I recognised my whole family.
209
00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:07,189 -->
(Lanzmann in French) Whom in his family did he recognise?
210
00:26:07,315 --> 00:26:09,650 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew)
211
00:26:18,952 --> 00:26:22,121 -->
Mum and my sisters. Three sisters with their kids.
212
00:26:22,247 --> 00:26:24,540 -->
They were all in there.
213
00:26:25,041 --> 00:26:27,167 -->
(Lanzmann) How could he recognise them?
214
00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:32,214 -->
ITZHAK DUGIN: SURVIVOR OF VILNA
215
00:26:54,487 --> 00:26:57,281 -->
They'd been in the earth 4 months,
216
00:26:57,407 --> 00:26:59,742 -->
and it was winter.
217
00:26:59,868 --> 00:27:01,660 -->
They were very well preserved.
218
00:27:01,786 --> 00:27:05,623 -->
I recognised their faces, their clothes too.
219
00:27:06,791 --> 00:27:09,793 -->
(Lanzmann) They'd been killed relatively recently?
220
00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:14,757 -->
(Interpreter j&3 speaking Hebrew)
221
00:27:16,843 --> 00:27:18,385 -->
Yes.
222
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:22,056 -->
(Lanzmann) And it was the last grave?
223
00:27:22,557 --> 00:27:25,100 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew)
224
00:27:25,226 --> 00:27:27,519 -->
- (Dugin replies) - Yes.
225
00:27:29,064 --> 00:27:32,900 -->
(Lanzmann) The Nazi plan was for them to open the graves
226
00:27:33,026 --> 00:27:34,985 -->
starting with the oldest?
227
00:27:35,904 --> 00:27:38,447 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew)
228
00:27:48,291 --> 00:27:49,708 -->
Yes.
229
00:28:20,031 --> 00:28:22,991 -->
The last graves were the newest,
230
00:28:23,118 --> 00:28:27,788 -->
and we started with the oldest, those of the first ghetto.
231
00:28:27,914 --> 00:28:30,916 -->
In the first grave, there were 24,000 bodies.
232
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,882 -->
(Motke speaks Hebrew)
233
00:28:43,346 --> 00:28:47,433 -->
(Interpreter j&3) The deeper you dug, the flatter the bodies were.
234
00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:50,436 -->
Each was almost a flat slab.
235
00:28:50,562 --> 00:28:54,398 -->
(Motke continues)
236
00:28:54,524 --> 00:28:58,235 -->
When you tried to grasp a body, it crumbled,
237
00:28:58,361 --> 00:29:00,612 -->
it was impossible to pick them up.
238
00:29:08,913 --> 00:29:13,333 -->
We had to open the graves, but without tools.
239
00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:17,171 -->
They said, "Get used to working with your hands."
240
00:29:17,297 --> 00:29:19,882 -->
(Lanzmann) With just their hands?
241
00:29:20,633 --> 00:29:22,676 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew)
242
00:29:23,511 --> 00:29:24,511 -->
Yes.
243
00:29:43,656 --> 00:29:45,866 -->
When we first opened the graves,
244
00:29:45,992 --> 00:29:49,411 -->
we couldn't help it, we all burst out sobbing.
245
00:29:49,537 --> 00:29:54,291 -->
But the Germans almost beat us to death.
246
00:29:54,417 --> 00:29:58,170 -->
We had to work at a killing pace for two days,
247
00:29:58,296 --> 00:30:01,048 -->
beaten all the time, and with no tools.
248
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:04,301 -->
(Lanzmann) They all burst out sobbing?
249
00:30:04,427 --> 00:30:06,553 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew)
250
00:30:10,975 --> 00:30:12,976 -->
(Motke continues)
251
00:30:27,617 --> 00:30:30,035 -->
The Germans even forbade us
252
00:30:30,161 --> 00:30:33,705 -->
to use the words "corpse" or "victim."
253
00:30:33,832 --> 00:30:37,501 -->
The dead were blocks of wood, shit,
254
00:30:37,627 --> 00:30:40,671 -->
with absolutely no importance...
255
00:30:42,882 --> 00:30:47,594 -->
(Dugin speaks Hebrew)
256
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,348 -->
Anyone who said "corpse" or "victim" was beaten.
257
00:30:52,517 --> 00:30:57,479 -->
(Dugin continues)
258
00:30:57,605 --> 00:31:02,651 -->
The Germans made us refer to the bodies as "Figuren,"
259
00:31:02,777 --> 00:31:05,612 -->
that is, as puppets, as dolls...
260
00:31:06,322 --> 00:31:08,991 -->
- Schmattes. - As "Schmattes," which means "rags."
261
00:31:11,744 --> 00:31:13,745 -->
(Lanzmann) Were they told at the start
262
00:31:13,872 --> 00:31:16,957 -->
how many "Figuren" there were in all the graves?
263
00:31:17,083 --> 00:31:20,878 -->
(Interpreter j&3 in Hebrew)
264
00:31:21,004 --> 00:31:23,255 -->
(Motke replies)
265
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,559 -->
The head of the Vilna Gestapo told us,
266
00:31:35,685 --> 00:31:39,271 -->
"There are 90,000 people lying there,
267
00:31:39,397 --> 00:31:42,441 -->
and absolutely no trace must be left of them."
268
00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:53,368 -->
(In German) It was at the end of November 1942.
269
00:31:55,371 --> 00:32:00,208 -->
They chased us away from our work
270
00:32:01,711 --> 00:32:04,463 -->
and back to our barracks.
271
00:32:04,589 --> 00:32:06,506 -->
Suddenly,
272
00:32:07,592 --> 00:32:15,015 -->
from the part of the camp called
273
00:32:16,142 --> 00:32:20,771 -->
the death camp,
274
00:32:22,899 --> 00:32:25,067 -->
flames shot up very high.
275
00:32:27,195 --> 00:32:32,950 -->
In a flash, the whole countryside,
276
00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,912 -->
the whole camp seemed ablaze.
277
00:32:39,666 --> 00:32:41,583 -->
It was already dark.
278
00:32:44,837 --> 00:32:48,840 -->
We went into our barracks
279
00:32:50,593 --> 00:32:52,678 -->
and ate...
280
00:32:53,179 --> 00:32:58,183 -->
And from the window,
281
00:32:58,309 --> 00:33:04,106 -->
we kept on watching the fantastic backdrop of flames
282
00:33:04,232 --> 00:33:06,733 -->
of every imaginable colour,
283
00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:11,697 -->
red, yellow, green, purple.
284
00:33:11,823 --> 00:33:19,823 -->
And suddenly one of us stood up.
285
00:33:20,873 --> 00:33:27,087 -->
We knew he'd been an opera singer in Warsaw.
286
00:33:29,048 --> 00:33:33,260 -->
His name was Salve, and...
287
00:33:33,386 --> 00:33:35,554 -->
- (Lanzmann) Salve? - Salve.
288
00:33:37,932 --> 00:33:41,852 -->
Facing that curtain of fire,
289
00:33:41,978 --> 00:33:46,189 -->
he began chanting a song
290
00:33:46,315 --> 00:33:49,818 -->
I didn't know:
291
00:33:50,695 --> 00:33:52,487 -->
"My God, my God,
292
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,034 -->
why hast Thou forsaken us?"
293
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,246 -->
RICHARD GLAZAR - BASEL, SWITZERLAND
294
00:34:03,291 --> 00:34:08,170 -->
"We have been thrust into the fire before,
295
00:34:08,296 --> 00:34:13,800 -->
but we have never denied Thy Holy Law."
296
00:34:15,553 --> 00:34:19,139 -->
He sang in Yiddish,
297
00:34:19,265 --> 00:34:21,600 -->
while, behind him,
298
00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:26,772 -->
blazed the pyres
299
00:34:27,482 --> 00:34:33,820 -->
on which they had begun then, in November 1942,
300
00:34:33,946 --> 00:34:37,074 -->
to burn the bodies in Treblinka.
301
00:34:38,785 --> 00:34:43,789 -->
That was the first time it happened.
302
00:34:45,374 --> 00:34:47,292 -->
We knew that night
303
00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:51,630 -->
that the dead would no longer be buried,
304
00:34:53,132 --> 00:34:55,133 -->
they'd be burned.
305
00:34:55,635 --> 00:34:58,303 -->
TREBLINKA
306
00:35:24,705 --> 00:35:29,417 -->
(Interpreter) When things were ready, they poured on fuel
307
00:35:29,544 --> 00:35:31,586 -->
and touched off the fire.
308
00:35:31,712 --> 00:35:34,047 -->
They waited for a high wind.
309
00:35:34,173 --> 00:35:38,093 -->
The pyres usually burned for 7 or 8 days.
310
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,771 -->
(Srebnik) There was a concrete platform some distance away,
311
00:35:50,982 --> 00:35:53,984 -->
and the bones that hadn't burned,
312
00:35:54,110 --> 00:35:56,736 -->
the big bones of the feet, for example,
313
00:35:56,863 --> 00:35:59,281 -->
we took...
314
00:36:00,449 --> 00:36:03,952 -->
There was a chest with two handles.
315
00:36:04,078 --> 00:36:07,080 -->
We carried the bones there,
316
00:36:07,206 --> 00:36:13,378 -->
where others had to crush them.
317
00:36:13,504 --> 00:36:16,256 -->
It was very fine,
318
00:36:17,508 --> 00:36:20,302 -->
that powdered bone.
319
00:36:20,428 --> 00:36:23,680 -->
Then it was put into sacks,
320
00:36:24,515 --> 00:36:28,685 -->
and when there were enough sacks,
321
00:36:28,811 --> 00:36:33,773 -->
we went to a bridge on the Narew river
322
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,401 -->
and dumped the powder.
323
00:36:36,527 --> 00:36:38,320 -->
The current carried it off.
324
00:36:40,740 --> 00:36:43,200 -->
It drifted downstream.
325
00:36:50,917 --> 00:36:54,628 -->
(j&Srebnik sings in Polish: "Little White House")
326
00:37:17,485 --> 00:37:20,570 -->
(Lanzmann in English) You never returned to Poland since?
327
00:37:20,696 --> 00:37:22,405 -->
(Woman) No.
328
00:37:22,531 --> 00:37:24,991 -->
I wanted many times.
329
00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:29,412 -->
But what will I see?
330
00:37:32,375 --> 00:37:34,668 -->
How can I face it?
331
00:37:39,423 --> 00:37:42,759 -->
My grandparents are buried in Lodz.
332
00:37:42,885 --> 00:37:47,013 -->
And, at one point, I heard from somebody that visited Poland
333
00:37:47,139 --> 00:37:50,850 -->
that they want to level off the cemetery,
334
00:37:50,977 --> 00:37:53,019 -->
do away with the cemetery.
335
00:37:53,145 --> 00:37:56,189 -->
Now how can I return to that, to visit?
336
00:37:58,401 --> 00:38:00,986 -->
(Lanzmann) When did they die, your grandparents?
337
00:38:01,862 --> 00:38:04,155 -->
- My grandparents? - Mm-hmm.
338
00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,783 -->
My grandparents died in the ghetto, quickly.
339
00:38:06,909 --> 00:38:09,619 -->
They were elderly, and within a couple years...
340
00:38:09,745 --> 00:38:13,373 -->
Within a year, my grandfather died. And my grandmother the next year.
341
00:38:13,499 --> 00:38:15,083 -->
In the ghetto, yes.
342
00:38:17,128 --> 00:38:21,214 -->
PAULA BIREN - CINCINNATI, USA SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ
343
00:38:28,306 --> 00:38:32,100 -->
THE JEWISH CEMETERY IN LODZ TODAY
344
00:38:35,271 --> 00:38:37,564 -->
(Crows cawing)
345
00:39:03,299 --> 00:39:04,966 -->
(Church bells ringing)
346
00:39:05,092 --> 00:39:07,427 -->
AUSCHWITZ: THE TOWN
347
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:12,182 -->
(Lanzmann in French) Mrs. Pietyra, you live in Auschwitz?
348
00:39:12,308 --> 00:39:14,726 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 and Pietyra speak in Polish)
349
00:39:14,852 --> 00:39:16,978 -->
(Interpreter in French) Yes, I was born here.
350
00:39:17,104 --> 00:39:19,064 -->
(Lanzmann) And you've never left Auschwitz?
351
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:21,274 -->
(Speaking Polish)
352
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,984 -->
No, never.
353
00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:25,945 -->
(Lanzmann) Were there Jews in Auschwitz before the war?
354
00:39:31,744 --> 00:39:34,329 -->
(Interpreter) They made up 80% of the population.
355
00:39:37,166 --> 00:39:38,500 -->
(Speaking Polish)
356
00:39:38,626 --> 00:39:41,086 -->
They even had a synagogue here.
357
00:39:41,212 --> 00:39:42,962 -->
(Lanzmann) Just one?
358
00:39:44,924 --> 00:39:47,092 -->
- Just one, I think. - (Lanzmann) Does it still exist?
359
00:39:51,931 --> 00:39:53,848 -->
No, it was wrecked.
360
00:39:53,974 --> 00:39:56,393 -->
There's something else there now.
361
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,770 -->
(Lanzmann) Was there a Jewish cemetery in Auschwitz?
362
00:39:58,896 --> 00:40:01,523 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 speaking Polish)
363
00:40:05,361 --> 00:40:08,905 -->
It still exists. It's closed now.
364
00:40:09,031 --> 00:40:11,616 -->
- It still exists? - Yes.
365
00:40:15,704 --> 00:40:17,789 -->
(Lanzmann) Closed? What does that mean?
366
00:40:21,335 --> 00:40:23,837 -->
They don't bury there now.
367
00:40:25,381 --> 00:40:28,258 -->
(j&Congregation sings Polish hymn)
368
00:40:44,024 --> 00:40:46,234 -->
(Lanzmann in French) Was there a synagogue in Wlodawa?
369
00:40:47,319 --> 00:40:49,195 -->
(Speaking Polish)
370
00:40:49,321 --> 00:40:51,906 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in French) Yes, and it's very beautiful.
371
00:40:52,032 --> 00:40:56,911 -->
(Speaking Polish)
372
00:40:57,037 --> 00:40:59,998 -->
When Poland was ruled by the czars,
373
00:41:00,124 --> 00:41:02,709 -->
that synagogue already existed.
374
00:41:05,379 --> 00:41:09,007 -->
It's even older than the Catholic church.
375
00:41:09,133 --> 00:41:13,428 -->
(Continues in Polish)
376
00:41:38,078 --> 00:41:40,872 -->
It's no longer used.
377
00:41:40,998 --> 00:41:43,416 -->
(Man continues)
378
00:41:43,542 --> 00:41:45,502 -->
There's no one to go to it.
379
00:41:52,885 --> 00:41:55,553 -->
(Lanzmann in French) These buildings haven't changed?
380
00:41:55,679 --> 00:41:57,680 -->
(Speaking Polish)
381
00:42:01,727 --> 00:42:05,230 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in French) Not at all. There were barrels of herrings here,
382
00:42:05,356 --> 00:42:07,357 -->
and the Jews sold fish.
383
00:42:08,943 --> 00:42:11,778 -->
There were stalls, small shops,
384
00:42:11,904 --> 00:42:14,864 -->
Jewish business, as the gentleman says.
385
00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:20,537 -->
- (Man continues) - That's Barenholz's house.
386
00:42:20,663 --> 00:42:23,331 -->
- (Man continues) - He sold wood.
387
00:42:23,457 --> 00:42:25,416 -->
(Man continues)
388
00:42:29,797 --> 00:42:32,173 -->
Lipschitz's store was there. He sold cloth.
389
00:42:32,299 --> 00:42:34,217 -->
(Lanzmann) This was Lichtenstein's.
390
00:42:34,343 --> 00:42:35,802 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) Lichtenstein, yes.
391
00:42:35,928 --> 00:42:38,346 -->
(Lanzmann) What was there, opposite?
392
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:42,684 -->
A food store.
393
00:42:42,810 --> 00:42:45,270 -->
(Lanzmann) A Jewish store?
394
00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:46,896 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) Yes.
395
00:42:48,774 --> 00:42:51,025 -->
There was a notions shop here,
396
00:42:51,151 --> 00:42:54,821 -->
it sold thread, needles, odds and ends,
397
00:42:58,158 --> 00:43:00,660 -->
and there were also three barbers.
398
00:43:01,829 --> 00:43:04,289 -->
PAN FILIPOWICZ
399
00:43:05,207 --> 00:43:08,087 -->
- (Lanzmann) Was that fine house Jewish? - (Interpreter j& 1) It's Jewish.
400
00:43:08,711 --> 00:43:11,671 -->
- And this small one? - Also.
401
00:43:11,797 --> 00:43:15,925 -->
- And the one behind it? - These were all Jewish.
402
00:43:16,051 --> 00:43:21,055 -->
- This one on the left, too? - That one too.
403
00:43:22,349 --> 00:43:25,977 -->
(Lanzmann) Who lived in it? Borenstein? (Filipowicz) Borenstein.
404
00:43:26,103 --> 00:43:30,607 -->
- (Filipowicz continues) - He was in the cement business.
405
00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:33,276 -->
He was very handsome, and cultivated.
406
00:43:34,903 --> 00:43:37,071 -->
(Filipowicz continues)
407
00:43:37,197 --> 00:43:40,325 -->
Here there was a blacksmith named Tepper.
408
00:43:40,451 --> 00:43:42,577 -->
It was a Jewish house.
409
00:43:43,704 --> 00:43:45,538 -->
A shoemaker lived here.
410
00:43:45,664 --> 00:43:49,626 -->
(Lanzmann) What was his name? (Filipowicz) Yankel.
411
00:43:51,629 --> 00:43:54,547 -->
(Lanzmann) You get the feeling Wlodawa was a Jewish city.
412
00:43:54,673 --> 00:43:57,925 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
413
00:43:58,052 --> 00:44:00,428 -->
- (Filipowicz replies) - Yes, because it's true.
414
00:44:00,554 --> 00:44:02,013 -->
(Filipowicz continues)
415
00:44:02,139 --> 00:44:06,142 -->
The Poles lived farther out, the centre was wholly Jewish.
416
00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:10,480 -->
(Lanzmann in French) What happened to the Jews of Auschwitz?
417
00:44:10,606 --> 00:44:16,486 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 and Pietyra speak Polish)
418
00:44:16,612 --> 00:44:19,697 -->
They were expelled and resettled,
419
00:44:19,823 --> 00:44:21,866 -->
but I don't know where.
420
00:44:21,992 --> 00:44:23,951 -->
(Lanzmann) What year was that?
421
00:44:24,078 --> 00:44:27,246 -->
(Pietyra replies)
422
00:44:27,373 --> 00:44:32,585 -->
It began in 1940, which was when I moved here.
423
00:44:32,711 --> 00:44:35,171 -->
This apartment also belonged to Jews.
424
00:44:36,006 --> 00:44:39,592 -->
(Lanzmann) According to our information,
425
00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:44,097 -->
the Auschwitz Jews were "resettled," as they say,
426
00:44:44,223 --> 00:44:48,643 -->
nearby, in Benzin and Sosnowiec, in Upper Silesia.
427
00:44:51,105 --> 00:44:53,731 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) Yes, because those were Jewish towns.
428
00:44:53,857 --> 00:44:58,361 -->
(Lanzmann) Does she know what happened to the Jews of Auschwitz?
429
00:44:58,487 --> 00:45:01,739 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
430
00:45:04,201 --> 00:45:07,161 -->
I think they all ended up in the camp.
431
00:45:07,287 --> 00:45:10,289 -->
(Lanzmann) That is, they returned to Auschwitz?
432
00:45:11,083 --> 00:45:12,208 -->
Yes.
433
00:45:14,586 --> 00:45:18,631 -->
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU
434
00:45:26,140 --> 00:45:28,141 -->
(Pietyra continues)
435
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,858 -->
All kinds of people from everywhere were sent here.
436
00:45:37,609 --> 00:45:40,820 -->
All the Jews came here... to die.
437
00:45:49,204 --> 00:45:50,955 -->
(Lanzmann) What did they think
438
00:45:51,081 --> 00:45:53,708 -->
when Wlodawa's Jews were all deported to Sobibor?
439
00:45:53,834 --> 00:45:56,169 -->
(Speaking Polish)
440
00:45:56,712 --> 00:46:00,798 -->
WLODAWA - SOBIBOR: 10 MILES
441
00:46:07,723 --> 00:46:09,932 -->
(In French) What could we think?
442
00:46:10,058 --> 00:46:15,897 -->
That it was the end of them, but they had foreseen that.
443
00:46:16,023 --> 00:46:17,690 -->
(Lanzmann) How so?
444
00:46:17,816 --> 00:46:19,400 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
445
00:46:34,082 --> 00:46:37,210 -->
Even before the war, when you talked to the Jews,
446
00:46:37,336 --> 00:46:39,128 -->
they foresaw their doom.
447
00:46:39,254 --> 00:46:40,671 -->
He doesn't know how.
448
00:46:40,798 --> 00:46:43,633 -->
Even before the war, they had a premonition.
449
00:46:53,936 --> 00:46:56,479 -->
(Lanzmann) How were they taken to Sobibor? On foot?
450
00:46:56,939 --> 00:46:58,856 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
451
00:46:58,982 --> 00:47:02,902 -->
(Filipowicz replies)
452
00:47:03,028 --> 00:47:06,447 -->
It was frightful. He watched it himself.
453
00:47:06,573 --> 00:47:09,534 -->
(Filipowicz continues)
454
00:47:09,660 --> 00:47:13,913 -->
They were herded on foot to a station called Orkrobek.
455
00:47:14,039 --> 00:47:16,916 -->
(Train clacking)
456
00:47:17,626 --> 00:47:22,880 -->
(Filipowicz continues)
457
00:47:23,006 --> 00:47:29,095 -->
There, they put the old people first into waiting cattle cars...
458
00:47:32,224 --> 00:47:34,392 -->
...then the younger Jews...
459
00:47:38,063 --> 00:47:40,273 -->
...and finally the kids.
460
00:47:40,399 --> 00:47:45,111 -->
That was the worst: They threw them on top of the others.
461
00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:24,650 -->
(Lanzmann) Were there a lot of Jews in Kolo?
462
00:48:24,776 --> 00:48:26,694 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
463
00:48:26,820 --> 00:48:29,071 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in French) A great many.
464
00:48:29,197 --> 00:48:32,825 -->
- (Man continues) - More Jews than Poles.
465
00:48:33,827 --> 00:48:36,787 -->
(Lanzmann) And what happened to the Kolo Jews?
466
00:48:36,914 --> 00:48:38,873 -->
Was he an eyewitness?
467
00:48:39,458 --> 00:48:41,375 -->
PAN FALBORSKI
468
00:48:41,501 --> 00:48:43,502 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
469
00:48:43,629 --> 00:48:46,756 -->
Yes. It was frightful.
470
00:49:03,357 --> 00:49:04,482 -->
Frightful to see.
471
00:49:04,608 --> 00:49:07,443 -->
Even the Germans hid, they couldn't see that.
472
00:49:07,569 --> 00:49:11,948 -->
When the Jews were herded to the station, they were beaten,
473
00:49:12,074 --> 00:49:13,491 -->
some were even killed.
474
00:49:13,617 --> 00:49:19,455 -->
A cart followed the convoy to pick up the corpses.
475
00:49:19,581 --> 00:49:22,291 -->
(Lanzmann) Those who couldn't walk, the slain?
476
00:49:22,417 --> 00:49:24,251 -->
Yes, those who'd fallen.
477
00:49:24,378 --> 00:49:26,587 -->
Where did this happen?
478
00:49:28,507 --> 00:49:30,466 -->
(Speaks Polish)
479
00:49:46,525 --> 00:49:51,070 -->
The Jews were collected in the Kolo synagogue.
480
00:49:51,196 --> 00:49:54,407 -->
Then they were herded to the station,
481
00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:58,577 -->
where the narrow-gauge railway went to Chelmno.
482
00:50:07,045 --> 00:50:11,090 -->
(Lanzmann) It happened to all the Jews in the area, not just in Kolo?
483
00:50:12,092 --> 00:50:14,051 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
484
00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:18,472 -->
(Falborski replies)
485
00:50:18,598 --> 00:50:20,099 -->
Absolutely.
486
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,519 -->
- Everywhere. - (Falborski continues)
487
00:50:27,065 --> 00:50:29,650 -->
Jews were also murdered in the forests
488
00:50:29,776 --> 00:50:32,278 -->
near Kalisz, not far from here.
489
00:50:44,583 --> 00:50:47,001 -->
(Locomotive chugging)
490
00:50:49,379 --> 00:50:52,173 -->
(Train whistle blows)
491
00:52:52,586 --> 00:52:54,712 -->
(Man in English) There was a sign.
492
00:52:54,838 --> 00:52:59,717 -->
There was a small sign on the station of Treblinka.
493
00:53:00,218 --> 00:53:04,972 -->
I don't know if we were at the station or if we did not go up to the station.
494
00:53:05,098 --> 00:53:07,683 -->
ABRAHAM BOMBA - TEL AVIV, ISRAEL SURVIVOR OF TREBLINKA
495
00:53:07,809 --> 00:53:10,477 -->
On the line over there where we stayed,
496
00:53:10,604 --> 00:53:14,690 -->
there was a small sign, very small sign, which say "Treblinka."
497
00:53:14,816 --> 00:53:19,737 -->
That was the first time in my life I heard about that name "Treblinka,"
498
00:53:19,863 --> 00:53:22,406 -->
because nobody know.
499
00:53:22,908 --> 00:53:26,577 -->
It is not a place. There is not a city.
500
00:53:26,703 --> 00:53:29,622 -->
Or it is not even a small village.
501
00:53:32,083 --> 00:53:36,128 -->
TREBLINKA BY ROAD
502
00:53:38,423 --> 00:53:41,800 -->
Jewish people always dreamed,
503
00:53:41,927 --> 00:53:44,178 -->
and that was part of their life.
504
00:53:44,304 --> 00:53:46,347 -->
It was part of their messiah,
505
00:53:46,473 --> 00:53:51,727 -->
to dream that someday they're going to be free.
506
00:53:52,979 --> 00:53:57,524 -->
That dream was mostly true in the ghetto.
507
00:53:58,985 --> 00:54:01,612 -->
Every day, every single night,
508
00:54:01,738 --> 00:54:04,865 -->
I dreamed about a thing that's going to be good.
509
00:54:06,701 --> 00:54:08,118 -->
Not only the dream,
510
00:54:08,245 --> 00:54:12,498 -->
but the hope conserved in a dream.
511
00:54:19,881 --> 00:54:23,884 -->
The first transport from Czestochowa
512
00:54:24,010 --> 00:54:27,388 -->
was sent away at the day of the Yom Kippur.
513
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:33,227 -->
The day before Sukkoth, there was the second transport.
514
00:54:33,353 --> 00:54:35,646 -->
I was together with them.
515
00:54:37,983 --> 00:54:42,778 -->
I know, only in my heart I know, that there's something that is not good,
516
00:54:42,904 --> 00:54:44,863 -->
because, if they take children,
517
00:54:44,990 --> 00:54:47,533 -->
if they take old people and they send them away,
518
00:54:47,659 --> 00:54:50,077 -->
that means it is not good.
519
00:54:50,203 --> 00:54:55,082 -->
What they said is they'd take them away to a place where they would be working.
520
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:57,584 -->
But, on the other hand,
521
00:54:57,711 --> 00:55:01,880 -->
an old woman or a little child from a week or four weeks or five years,
522
00:55:02,007 --> 00:55:04,049 -->
what is he going to work?
523
00:55:05,302 --> 00:55:08,637 -->
That was a foolish thing, but, still, we had no choice.
524
00:55:08,763 --> 00:55:10,639 -->
We believed in that.
525
00:55:32,037 --> 00:55:34,788 -->
(Man speaks Polish) (Interpreter) He was born here...
526
00:55:34,914 --> 00:55:37,374 -->
in 1923...
527
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:40,502 -->
and has been here ever since.
528
00:55:42,422 --> 00:55:44,840 -->
(Lanzmann in French) He lived at this very spot?
529
00:55:44,966 --> 00:55:46,550 -->
(Interpreter) Right here.
530
00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:49,720 -->
(Lanzmann) Then he had a front-row seat for what happened.
531
00:55:49,846 --> 00:55:54,058 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
532
00:55:54,184 --> 00:55:56,894 -->
- (Man replies) - Naturally.
533
00:55:57,020 --> 00:56:00,230 -->
(Man continues)
534
00:56:00,357 --> 00:56:05,069 -->
You could go up close or watch from a distance.
535
00:56:06,029 --> 00:56:09,073 -->
CZESLAW BOROWI
536
00:56:12,952 --> 00:56:15,913 -->
They had land on the far side of the station.
537
00:56:16,039 --> 00:56:19,416 -->
To work it, he had to cross the track,
538
00:56:19,542 --> 00:56:21,543 -->
so he could see everything.
539
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,595 -->
(Lanzmann) Does he remember the first convoy of Jews from Warsaw
540
00:56:31,721 --> 00:56:34,598 -->
on July 22, 1942?
541
00:56:34,724 --> 00:56:36,141 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
542
00:56:36,267 --> 00:56:39,603 -->
(Borowi speaks in Polish)
543
00:56:42,899 --> 00:56:45,109 -->
He recalls the first convoy very well...
544
00:56:46,945 --> 00:56:49,696 -->
...and when all those Jews were brought here.
545
00:56:54,411 --> 00:56:57,871 -->
People wondered, "What's to be done with them?"
546
00:57:01,042 --> 00:57:05,129 -->
Clearly, they'd be killed, but no one yet knew how.
547
00:57:17,183 --> 00:57:21,645 -->
When people began to understand what was happening,
548
00:57:22,188 --> 00:57:23,647 -->
they were appalled,
549
00:57:23,773 --> 00:57:28,902 -->
and they commented privately that since the world began,
550
00:57:29,028 --> 00:57:32,656 -->
no one had ever murdered so many people that way.
551
00:57:38,163 --> 00:57:41,331 -->
(Lanzmann) While all this was happening before their eyes,
552
00:57:41,458 --> 00:57:43,167 -->
normal life went on?
553
00:57:43,293 --> 00:57:48,589 -->
- They worked their fields? - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
554
00:57:48,715 --> 00:57:52,259 -->
(Borowi replies)
555
00:58:08,443 --> 00:58:10,194 -->
Certainly they worked,
556
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:15,073 -->
but not as willingly as usual.
557
00:58:15,742 --> 00:58:17,618 -->
They had to work,
558
00:58:17,744 --> 00:58:20,287 -->
but when they saw all this, they thought,
559
00:58:20,413 --> 00:58:23,874 -->
"What if our house is surrounded and we're arrested?"
560
00:58:26,628 --> 00:58:28,962 -->
(Lanzmann) Were they afraid for the Jews, too?
561
00:59:00,995 --> 00:59:02,871 -->
Well, he says it's this way...
562
00:59:02,997 --> 00:59:07,584 -->
If I cut my finger, it doesn't hurt him.
563
00:59:07,710 --> 00:59:10,003 -->
They saw what happened to the Jews,
564
00:59:10,129 --> 00:59:14,758 -->
the convoy came in and then went to the camp,
565
00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:17,678 -->
and the people vanished.
566
00:59:17,804 --> 00:59:19,680 -->
(Speak Polish)
567
00:59:19,806 --> 00:59:24,101 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) He had a field less than 100 yards from the camp.
568
00:59:26,729 --> 00:59:29,481 -->
He also worked during the German occupation.
569
00:59:29,607 --> 00:59:32,025 -->
(Lanzmann) He worked his field? (Interpreter j& 1) Yes.
570
00:59:32,694 --> 00:59:37,197 -->
He saw how they were asphyxiated,
571
00:59:37,323 --> 00:59:40,617 -->
he heard them scream, he saw that.
572
00:59:40,743 --> 00:59:45,289 -->
There's a small hill. He could see quite a bit.
573
00:59:47,125 --> 00:59:49,585 -->
- (Laughter) - (Lanzmann) What did he say?
574
00:59:49,711 --> 00:59:51,461 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
575
00:59:53,339 --> 00:59:56,049 -->
They couldn't stop and watch.
576
00:59:56,551 --> 00:59:59,511 -->
It was forbidden. The Ukrainians shot at them.
577
00:59:59,637 --> 01:00:03,765 -->
(Lanzmann) But they could work a field 100 yards from the camp?
578
01:00:05,643 --> 01:00:08,770 -->
They could.
579
01:00:08,896 --> 01:00:12,065 -->
So occasionally he could steal a glance,
580
01:00:12,191 --> 01:00:14,401 -->
if the Ukrainians weren't looking.
581
01:00:14,527 --> 01:00:16,987 -->
(Lanzmann) He worked with his eyes lowered?
582
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:21,408 -->
Yes.
583
01:00:21,909 --> 01:00:23,910 -->
(Speaks Polish)
584
01:00:26,372 --> 01:00:30,208 -->
He worked by the barbed wire and heard awful screams.
585
01:00:30,335 --> 01:00:33,253 -->
(Lanzmann) His field was there?
586
01:00:34,213 --> 01:00:36,089 -->
(Interpreter) Yes, right up close.
587
01:00:37,258 --> 01:00:39,676 -->
It wasn't forbidden to work there.
588
01:00:40,637 --> 01:00:44,181 -->
(Lanzmann) So he worked, he farmed there?
589
01:00:47,727 --> 01:00:48,977 -->
(Interpreter) Yes.
590
01:00:49,937 --> 01:00:53,899 -->
Where the camp is now was partly his field.
591
01:00:56,944 --> 01:00:59,446 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
592
01:01:06,287 --> 01:01:09,164 -->
It was off limits, but they heard everything.
593
01:01:09,290 --> 01:01:12,751 -->
(Lanzmann) It didn't bother him to work so near those screams?
594
01:01:12,877 --> 01:01:17,047 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
595
01:01:21,678 --> 01:01:25,222 -->
At first it was unbearable. Then you got used to it.
596
01:01:25,682 --> 01:01:29,184 -->
(Lanzmann) You get used to anything?
597
01:01:30,853 --> 01:01:31,937 -->
Yes.
598
01:01:35,358 --> 01:01:39,027 -->
Now he thinks... it's impossible.
599
01:01:39,153 --> 01:01:40,821 -->
Yet it was true.
600
01:02:06,222 --> 01:02:09,057 -->
(Speaking in Polish)
601
01:02:09,726 --> 01:02:12,561 -->
So he saw the convoys arriving.
602
01:02:13,062 --> 01:02:17,441 -->
There were 60 to 80 cars in each convoy,
603
01:02:17,567 --> 01:02:20,360 -->
and there were two locomotives
604
01:02:20,486 --> 01:02:24,281 -->
that took the convoys into the camp,
605
01:02:24,407 --> 01:02:28,368 -->
taking 20 cars at a time.
606
01:02:29,245 --> 01:02:31,705 -->
And the cars came back empty?
607
01:02:31,831 --> 01:02:33,999 -->
(Speaking Polish)
608
01:02:35,168 --> 01:02:37,043 -->
- Yes. - Does he remember...?
609
01:02:41,799 --> 01:02:43,508 -->
Here's how it happened.
610
01:02:43,634 --> 01:02:46,136 -->
The locomotive picked up 20 cars
611
01:02:47,847 --> 01:02:50,015 -->
and took them to the camp.
612
01:02:50,141 --> 01:02:53,643 -->
That took maybe an hour,
613
01:02:59,567 --> 01:03:01,610 -->
and the empty cars came back here.
614
01:03:01,736 --> 01:03:03,820 -->
Then the next 20 cars were taken,
615
01:03:03,946 --> 01:03:08,492 -->
and meanwhile, the people in the first 20 were already dead.
616
01:03:20,379 --> 01:03:22,047 -->
(Man speaks Polish)
617
01:03:22,173 --> 01:03:24,090 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) They waited, they wept...
618
01:03:24,217 --> 01:03:28,220 -->
...they asked for water, they died.
619
01:03:30,264 --> 01:03:36,353 -->
Sometimes they were naked in the cars, up to 170 people.
620
01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:41,274 -->
(Interpreter) This is where they gave the Jews water, he says.
621
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:42,859 -->
(Lanzmann) Where was that?
622
01:03:42,985 --> 01:03:44,778 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
623
01:03:44,904 --> 01:03:49,616 -->
Here. When the convoys arrived, they gave water to the Jews.
624
01:03:49,742 --> 01:03:52,327 -->
(Lanzmann) Who gave the Jews water?
625
01:03:53,746 --> 01:03:55,789 -->
We did, the Poles.
626
01:03:56,833 --> 01:04:00,961 -->
There was a tiny well, we took a bottle and...
627
01:04:01,087 --> 01:04:05,131 -->
(Lanzmann) Wasn't it dangerous to give them water?
628
01:04:05,758 --> 01:04:07,384 -->
Very dangerous.
629
01:04:12,014 --> 01:04:17,143 -->
You could be killed for giving a glass of water.
630
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:20,230 -->
But we gave them water anyway.
631
01:04:24,694 --> 01:04:27,279 -->
(Lanzmann) Is it very cold here in winter?
632
01:04:27,405 --> 01:04:30,198 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 and man speak Polish)
633
01:04:30,324 --> 01:04:34,286 -->
It depends.
634
01:04:34,412 --> 01:04:36,913 -->
It can get to minus 15, minus 20.
635
01:04:40,167 --> 01:04:43,545 -->
(Lanzmann) Which was harder on the Jews, summer or winter?
636
01:04:43,671 --> 01:04:49,009 -->
- Waiting here, I mean. - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
637
01:04:49,677 --> 01:04:51,595 -->
(Man replies)
638
01:04:55,016 --> 01:04:57,225 -->
He thinks winter, because they were very cold.
639
01:04:57,351 --> 01:04:59,185 -->
(Man continues)
640
01:05:02,607 --> 01:05:07,319 -->
They were so packed in the cars, maybe they weren't cold.
641
01:05:09,780 --> 01:05:13,033 -->
In summer they stifled, it was very hot.
642
01:05:14,035 --> 01:05:17,037 -->
The Jews were very thirsty. They tried to get out.
643
01:05:21,584 --> 01:05:24,461 -->
(Lanzmann) Were there corpses in the cars on arrival?
644
01:05:24,587 --> 01:05:26,588 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
645
01:05:31,844 --> 01:05:33,345 -->
Obviously.
646
01:05:34,096 --> 01:05:35,597 -->
Yes.
647
01:05:46,442 --> 01:05:48,485 -->
They were so packed in
648
01:05:48,611 --> 01:05:53,114 -->
that even those still alive sat on corpses for lack of space.
649
01:05:56,118 --> 01:05:59,287 -->
(Lanzmann) Didn't people here who went by the trains
650
01:05:59,413 --> 01:06:02,415 -->
look through the cracks in the cars?
651
01:06:02,541 --> 01:06:04,542 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
652
01:06:11,509 --> 01:06:15,011 -->
Yes, they could look in sometimes as they went by.
653
01:06:18,808 --> 01:06:22,394 -->
When they were allowed, they gave them water, too.
654
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,355 -->
(Lanzmann) Yes. How did the Jews try to get out?
655
01:06:25,481 --> 01:06:27,899 -->
The doors weren't opened. How'd they get out?
656
01:06:28,025 --> 01:06:30,026 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
657
01:06:32,238 --> 01:06:34,739 -->
Through the windows.
658
01:06:36,993 --> 01:06:39,661 -->
They removed the barbed wire. Yes.
659
01:06:40,705 --> 01:06:44,124 -->
And came out of the windows. They jumped, of course.
660
01:06:49,755 --> 01:06:54,467 -->
Sometimes they just deliberately sat down on the ground,
661
01:06:54,969 --> 01:06:59,597 -->
and the guards came and shot them in the head.
662
01:07:00,766 --> 01:07:02,475 -->
(Speaking Polish)
663
01:07:10,276 --> 01:07:14,279 -->
They jumped from the cars. What a sight!
664
01:07:15,322 --> 01:07:17,115 -->
Jumping from the windows.
665
01:07:19,118 --> 01:07:22,037 -->
There was a mother and child.
666
01:07:22,163 --> 01:07:24,330 -->
- (Lanzmann) Jewish? - Yes.
667
01:07:24,457 --> 01:07:26,207 -->
She tried to run away,
668
01:07:26,667 --> 01:07:30,211 -->
and they shot her in the heart.
669
01:07:33,799 --> 01:07:36,509 -->
- Shot who? The mother? - Yes, the mother.
670
01:07:38,971 --> 01:07:43,516 -->
This gentleman has lived here a long time, he can't forget.
671
01:07:54,695 --> 01:07:57,864 -->
He says that now he can't understand
672
01:07:57,990 --> 01:08:02,535 -->
how a man can do that to another human being.
673
01:08:03,370 --> 01:08:05,580 -->
It's inconceivable, beyond understanding.
674
01:08:08,084 --> 01:08:11,419 -->
Once when the Jews asked for water, a Ukrainian went by
675
01:08:12,421 --> 01:08:14,422 -->
and forbade giving any.
676
01:08:17,343 --> 01:08:20,637 -->
The Jewish woman that had asked for water
677
01:08:20,763 --> 01:08:25,517 -->
threw her pot at his head.
678
01:08:35,069 --> 01:08:39,197 -->
The Ukrainian moved back,
679
01:08:39,990 --> 01:08:44,577 -->
maybe ten yards, and opened fire on the car.
680
01:08:45,788 --> 01:08:48,665 -->
Blood and brains were all over the place.
681
01:08:48,791 --> 01:08:51,960 -->
(Borowi speaks Polish)
682
01:08:52,086 --> 01:08:54,546 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) Lots of people opened the doors...
683
01:08:57,508 --> 01:08:59,717 -->
...or escaped through the windows.
684
01:09:02,972 --> 01:09:08,601 -->
Sometimes the Ukrainians fired through the car walls.
685
01:09:37,256 --> 01:09:39,757 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
686
01:09:41,427 --> 01:09:42,886 -->
It happened chiefly at night.
687
01:09:43,012 --> 01:09:47,223 -->
When the Jews talked to each other, as he showed us,
688
01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:51,644 -->
the Ukrainians wanted things quiet,
689
01:09:51,770 --> 01:09:55,023 -->
and they asked... yes, asked them to shut up.
690
01:09:55,149 --> 01:09:59,652 -->
So the Jews shut up and the guard moved off.
691
01:09:59,778 --> 01:10:03,489 -->
Then the Jews started talking again in their language,
692
01:10:03,616 --> 01:10:05,450 -->
as he says, Ra-Ra-Ra, and so on.
693
01:10:05,576 --> 01:10:09,579 -->
What's he mean, la-la-la? What's he trying to imitate?
694
01:10:09,705 --> 01:10:12,498 -->
- Their language. - No, ask him.
695
01:10:16,337 --> 01:10:18,713 -->
Was the Jews' noise something special?
696
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:21,758 -->
They spoke Jew.
697
01:10:21,884 --> 01:10:23,134 -->
Yes.
698
01:10:23,260 --> 01:10:26,721 -->
Does Mr. Borowi understand "Jew"?
699
01:10:26,847 --> 01:10:28,348 -->
No.
700
01:10:34,647 --> 01:10:36,481 -->
(Bomba) We were in that wagon.
701
01:10:36,607 --> 01:10:42,320 -->
The wagon was rolling, rolling in the direction east.
702
01:10:44,323 --> 01:10:47,116 -->
A funny thing happened right there.
703
01:10:47,243 --> 01:10:50,495 -->
Maybe it's not nice to say, but I will say it.
704
01:10:50,621 --> 01:10:55,166 -->
Most of the people, not only most, but 99% of the Polish people,
705
01:10:55,292 --> 01:10:57,543 -->
when they saw the train going through...
706
01:10:57,670 --> 01:11:01,214 -->
We looked really like animals in that wagon,
707
01:11:01,715 --> 01:11:04,384 -->
just our eyes looked outside.
708
01:11:04,510 --> 01:11:07,887 -->
And they were laughing, and they were all...
709
01:11:08,013 --> 01:11:11,599 -->
They had a joy, because they took the Jewish people away.
710
01:11:14,353 --> 01:11:17,605 -->
What was going on in the wagon between the people,
711
01:11:17,731 --> 01:11:20,233 -->
and the pushing and the screaming...
712
01:11:20,359 --> 01:11:23,111 -->
"Where is my child?" and, "Where is my this?"
713
01:11:23,237 --> 01:11:24,946 -->
and "A little bit of water!"
714
01:11:25,072 --> 01:11:30,868 -->
And people were not only starving, but they were choking.
715
01:11:31,745 --> 01:11:33,871 -->
It was hot. It happened... Just it happened...
716
01:11:33,998 --> 01:11:35,498 -->
The Jewish luck...
717
01:11:35,624 --> 01:11:39,919 -->
in September, at that time, usually when it is rainy, when it is cool,
718
01:11:40,045 --> 01:11:43,298 -->
that it was hot like hell.
719
01:11:43,799 --> 01:11:45,425 -->
We had nothing inside.
720
01:11:45,551 --> 01:11:50,013 -->
For a child, you know, like my own child about the age of three weeks,
721
01:11:50,139 --> 01:11:52,056 -->
there was not a drop of water.
722
01:11:52,182 --> 01:11:53,891 -->
There wasn't a drop of water for the mother,
723
01:11:54,018 --> 01:11:56,894 -->
there wasn't a drop of water for anybody else.
724
01:12:02,484 --> 01:12:04,319 -->
(Whistle blows)
725
01:12:11,368 --> 01:12:14,996 -->
(Lanzmann in French) Did he hear screams behind his locomotive?
726
01:12:15,122 --> 01:12:17,040 -->
(Whistle blows)
727
01:12:17,166 --> 01:12:20,126 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
728
01:12:20,252 --> 01:12:22,545 -->
(Man replies)
729
01:12:22,671 --> 01:12:27,216 -->
Obviously, since the locomotive was next to the camp.
730
01:12:27,343 --> 01:12:30,053 -->
They screamed, asked for water.
731
01:12:37,394 --> 01:12:42,106 -->
The screams from the cars closest to the locomotive
732
01:12:42,232 --> 01:12:44,859 -->
could be heard very well.
733
01:12:48,447 --> 01:12:50,615 -->
(Lanzmann) Can one get used to that?
734
01:12:50,741 --> 01:12:54,118 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
735
01:12:54,244 --> 01:12:57,121 -->
(Man replies)
736
01:12:57,247 --> 01:12:58,581 -->
No.
737
01:13:02,461 --> 01:13:05,254 -->
It was extremely distressing to him.
738
01:13:05,381 --> 01:13:09,842 -->
He knew that the people behind him were human, like him.
739
01:13:09,968 --> 01:13:11,761 -->
(Whistle blows)
740
01:13:17,226 --> 01:13:23,856 -->
The Germans gave him and the other workers vodka to drink.
741
01:13:23,982 --> 01:13:26,150 -->
Without drinking, they couldn't have done it.
742
01:13:26,276 --> 01:13:28,111 -->
(Man continues)
743
01:13:33,325 --> 01:13:35,076 -->
There was a bonus...
744
01:13:39,832 --> 01:13:43,543 -->
...that they were paid not in money, but in liquor.
745
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:46,671 -->
(Man continues)
746
01:13:46,797 --> 01:13:50,675 -->
Those who worked on other trains didn't get this bonus.
747
01:13:50,801 --> 01:13:53,052 -->
(Whistle blows)
748
01:13:54,012 --> 01:13:57,390 -->
HENRIK GAWKOWSKI
749
01:14:04,231 --> 01:14:07,442 -->
(Interpreter) He drank every drop he got,
750
01:14:07,568 --> 01:14:12,447 -->
because without liquor he couldn't stand the stench
751
01:14:12,573 --> 01:14:14,490 -->
when he got here.
752
01:14:14,616 --> 01:14:19,120 -->
They even bought more liquor on their own
753
01:14:19,246 --> 01:14:21,247 -->
to get drunk on.
754
01:14:32,843 --> 01:14:34,719 -->
(Bomba) We arrived in the morning.
755
01:14:34,845 --> 01:14:38,848 -->
We arrived, I would say, about 6:00, maybe 6:30.
756
01:14:39,641 --> 01:14:42,643 -->
On the other side of the tracks,
757
01:14:43,145 --> 01:14:47,398 -->
I saw more trains standing there,
758
01:14:49,359 --> 01:14:52,028 -->
and I was watching through...
759
01:14:52,154 --> 01:14:58,826 -->
I saw about 18, 20, maybe more, wagons going away.
760
01:15:00,329 --> 01:15:03,414 -->
And after about an hour or so,
761
01:15:03,540 --> 01:15:08,294 -->
I saw the wagons coming back, but without the people.
762
01:15:19,264 --> 01:15:25,895 -->
My train stayed there until about 12:00.
763
01:15:29,733 --> 01:15:34,320 -->
(Lanzmann) From the station to the unloading ramp in the camp,
764
01:15:34,446 --> 01:15:36,113 -->
how many miles?
765
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,241 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
766
01:15:49,336 --> 01:15:50,586 -->
Four.
767
01:16:00,180 --> 01:16:03,182 -->
(Bomba) While we stayed there, at that station over there,
768
01:16:03,308 --> 01:16:07,311 -->
waiting to go in Treblinka camp,
769
01:16:08,188 --> 01:16:11,649 -->
some of those German SS, they came around,
770
01:16:11,775 --> 01:16:14,694 -->
and they were asking us what we have.
771
01:16:15,737 --> 01:16:21,492 -->
So we said, "We got... Some of the people, they have... gold.
772
01:16:21,618 --> 01:16:23,744 -->
"They have diamonds.
773
01:16:23,870 --> 01:16:26,163 -->
"But we want water."
774
01:16:28,041 --> 01:16:29,542 -->
So they said, "Good.
775
01:16:29,668 --> 01:16:32,211 -->
"Give us the diamonds, we bring you water."
776
01:16:33,714 --> 01:16:37,300 -->
Yeah, they took them away and they didn't bring any water at all.
777
01:16:43,348 --> 01:16:45,391 -->
(Lanzmann) How long did last the trip?
778
01:16:45,517 --> 01:16:51,230 -->
The trip lasted from Czestochowa to Treblinka
779
01:16:51,940 --> 01:16:54,233 -->
about 24 hours,
780
01:16:54,735 --> 01:16:57,862 -->
with interruption waiting in Warsaw
781
01:16:57,988 --> 01:17:01,949 -->
and also waiting at Treblinka to go into Treblinka.
782
01:17:02,075 --> 01:17:04,285 -->
ABRAHAM BOMBA
783
01:17:04,411 --> 01:17:07,788 -->
At the last train, we went in over there.
784
01:17:07,914 --> 01:17:09,999 -->
But, like I mentioned before,
785
01:17:10,125 --> 01:17:12,418 -->
I saw many trains coming back,
786
01:17:12,544 --> 01:17:15,338 -->
but the trains were without the people.
787
01:17:15,464 --> 01:17:18,841 -->
So I said to myself, "What happened to the people?
788
01:17:18,967 --> 01:17:22,219 -->
We don't see any people, just trains coming back."
789
01:17:22,346 --> 01:17:24,347 -->
(Train clacking)
790
01:17:28,018 --> 01:17:30,478 -->
(Glazar in German) We travelled for two days.
791
01:17:31,897 --> 01:17:34,190 -->
On the morning of the second day,
792
01:17:34,316 --> 01:17:38,861 -->
we saw that we had left Czechoslovakia
793
01:17:38,987 --> 01:17:43,658 -->
and were heading east.
794
01:17:44,242 --> 01:17:46,077 -->
(Train whistle blows)
795
01:17:48,455 --> 01:17:52,375 -->
It wasn't the SS guarding us,
796
01:17:52,501 --> 01:17:56,504 -->
but the Schutzpolizei,
797
01:17:56,630 --> 01:17:59,340 -->
the police, in green uniforms.
798
01:18:02,511 --> 01:18:05,721 -->
We were in ordinary passenger cars.
799
01:18:05,847 --> 01:18:07,848 -->
All the seats were filled.
800
01:18:09,059 --> 01:18:11,352 -->
You couldn't choose.
801
01:18:11,478 --> 01:18:14,230 -->
They were all numbered and assigned.
802
01:18:16,274 --> 01:18:20,569 -->
In my compartment there was an elderly couple.
803
01:18:20,696 --> 01:18:22,446 -->
I still remember...
804
01:18:22,572 --> 01:18:28,452 -->
The good man was always hungry and his wife scolded him,
805
01:18:28,578 --> 01:18:35,209 -->
saying they'd have no food left for the future.
806
01:18:36,420 --> 01:18:39,004 -->
RICHARD GLAZAR
807
01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:41,006 -->
(Whistle blows)
808
01:18:41,842 --> 01:18:45,136 -->
Then, on the second day,
809
01:18:45,262 --> 01:18:48,639 -->
I saw a sign for Malkinia.
810
01:18:48,765 --> 01:18:50,933 -->
We went on a little farther.
811
01:18:51,435 --> 01:18:56,313 -->
Then, very slowly,
812
01:18:56,440 --> 01:19:00,317 -->
the train turned off the main track
813
01:19:00,444 --> 01:19:04,739 -->
and rolled at a walking pace through a wood.
814
01:19:04,865 --> 01:19:07,742 -->
While he looked out,
815
01:19:08,618 --> 01:19:11,287 -->
we'd been able to open a window.
816
01:19:11,413 --> 01:19:15,374 -->
The old man in our compartment saw a boy...
817
01:19:15,500 --> 01:19:19,170 -->
Cows were grazing...
818
01:19:19,296 --> 01:19:23,090 -->
And he asked the boy in signs,
819
01:19:23,216 --> 01:19:25,593 -->
"Where are we?"
820
01:19:26,511 --> 01:19:29,513 -->
And the kid made a funny gesture. This!
821
01:19:30,432 --> 01:19:32,141 -->
Across the throat.
822
01:19:34,728 --> 01:19:36,896 -->
- (Lanzmann) A Pole? - A Pole.
823
01:19:37,022 --> 01:19:39,315 -->
Where was this? At the station?
824
01:19:39,441 --> 01:19:45,279 -->
It was where the train had stopped.
825
01:19:45,405 --> 01:19:47,239 -->
On one side was the wood,
826
01:19:47,365 --> 01:19:50,367 -->
and on the other were fields.
827
01:19:50,494 --> 01:19:52,745 -->
And there was a farmer in a field?
828
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:55,915 -->
We saw cows
829
01:19:56,041 --> 01:19:59,752 -->
which were watched over by a young man,
830
01:19:59,878 --> 01:20:03,881 -->
a farmhand.
831
01:20:05,217 --> 01:20:07,259 -->
And one of you questioned him?
832
01:20:07,385 --> 01:20:14,141 -->
Not in words, but in signs, we asked, "What's going on here?"
833
01:20:14,267 --> 01:20:17,269 -->
And he made that gesture. Like this.
834
01:20:19,272 --> 01:20:26,028 -->
We didn't really pay much attention to him.
835
01:20:26,154 --> 01:20:28,656 -->
We couldn't figure out what he meant.
836
01:20:28,782 --> 01:20:30,449 -->
(Dogs barking)
837
01:20:40,961 --> 01:20:42,962 -->
(Man speaks Polish)
838
01:20:47,843 --> 01:20:50,928 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in French) Once there were foreign Jews...
839
01:20:51,471 --> 01:20:55,224 -->
- They were this fat. - (Lanzmann) This fat?
840
01:20:55,350 --> 01:20:58,477 -->
Riding in passenger cars.
841
01:20:58,603 --> 01:21:03,983 -->
There was a dining car, they could drink and walk around too.
842
01:21:04,109 --> 01:21:08,153 -->
They said they were going to a factory.
843
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:12,783 -->
On arrival, they saw what kind of a factory it was.
844
01:21:13,326 --> 01:21:15,327 -->
(Men speaking Polish)
845
01:21:17,038 --> 01:21:20,207 -->
(Interpreter) We'd gesture... (Lanzmann) Gesture how?
846
01:21:22,669 --> 01:21:26,213 -->
(Interpreter) That they'd be killed. (Lanzmann) They made that sign?
847
01:21:26,339 --> 01:21:28,382 -->
He says the Jews didn't believe it.
848
01:21:28,508 --> 01:21:30,759 -->
(Lanzmann) But what does that gesture mean?
849
01:21:33,471 --> 01:21:35,890 -->
That death awaited them.
850
01:21:48,111 --> 01:21:51,238 -->
The people who had a chance to get near the Jews
851
01:21:51,364 --> 01:21:53,616 -->
did that to warn them...
852
01:21:53,742 --> 01:21:56,452 -->
- (Lanzmann) He did it too? - That they'd be hanged, killed, slain.
853
01:21:56,578 --> 01:21:57,995 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
854
01:21:58,121 --> 01:21:59,496 -->
Yes.
855
01:22:02,584 --> 01:22:06,545 -->
Even foreign Jews from Belgium, Czechoslovakia,
856
01:22:06,671 --> 01:22:09,006 -->
from France too, surely.
857
01:22:10,175 --> 01:22:11,842 -->
And from Holland...
858
01:22:14,429 --> 01:22:16,013 -->
These didn't know,
859
01:22:23,605 --> 01:22:27,149 -->
but the Polish Jews knew.
860
01:22:27,275 --> 01:22:33,113 -->
In the small cities in the area,
861
01:22:33,239 --> 01:22:34,406 -->
it was talked about.
862
01:22:34,532 --> 01:22:38,577 -->
So the Polish Jews were forewarned, but not the others.
863
01:22:38,703 --> 01:22:41,705 -->
Who'd they warn, Polish Jews or the others?
864
01:22:47,754 --> 01:22:50,547 -->
All the Jews.
865
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:15,698 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
866
01:23:15,824 --> 01:23:19,326 -->
He says the foreign Jews arrived here in passenger cars,
867
01:23:19,452 --> 01:23:21,912 -->
they were well dressed, in white shirts,
868
01:23:22,038 --> 01:23:26,458 -->
there were flowers in the cars, and they played cards.
869
01:23:27,043 --> 01:23:31,213 -->
(Lanzmann in French) From what I know, that was very rare,
870
01:23:31,339 --> 01:23:34,758 -->
Jews shipped in passenger cars.
871
01:23:34,884 --> 01:23:38,637 -->
Most arrived in cattle cars.
872
01:23:38,763 --> 01:23:41,432 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
873
01:23:53,945 --> 01:23:55,821 -->
It's not true.
874
01:23:55,947 --> 01:23:57,698 -->
(Lanzmann) It's not true?
875
01:23:57,824 --> 01:23:59,867 -->
(Woman speaks Polish)
876
01:24:01,244 --> 01:24:02,995 -->
(Lanzmann) What did Mrs. Gawkowska say?
877
01:24:03,121 --> 01:24:07,499 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) She said he may not have seen everything.
878
01:24:07,625 --> 01:24:10,961 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) He says he did.
879
01:24:38,156 --> 01:24:41,241 -->
Once, at the Malkinia station, for example,
880
01:24:41,367 --> 01:24:44,661 -->
a foreign Jew left the train
881
01:24:44,788 --> 01:24:47,164 -->
to buy something at the bar.
882
01:24:47,665 --> 01:24:52,836 -->
The train pulled out and he ran after it.
883
01:24:52,962 --> 01:24:55,964 -->
(Lanzmann) To catch up to it? (Interpreter j& 1) Yes.
884
01:24:56,091 --> 01:25:01,261 -->
So he went past these "Pullmans," as he calls them,
885
01:25:01,387 --> 01:25:06,475 -->
those Jews who were calm, unsuspecting,
886
01:25:06,601 --> 01:25:09,061 -->
and he made that gesture to them.
887
01:25:09,187 --> 01:25:11,021 -->
(Speaks Polish)
888
01:25:18,613 --> 01:25:19,780 -->
Yes.
889
01:25:20,490 --> 01:25:22,658 -->
To all the Jews, in principle.
890
01:25:22,784 --> 01:25:25,536 -->
He just went along the platform? Ask him.
891
01:25:32,710 --> 01:25:37,005 -->
Yes. The road was as it is now.
892
01:25:39,217 --> 01:25:43,720 -->
When the guard wasn't looking,
893
01:25:43,847 --> 01:25:46,306 -->
he made that gesture.
894
01:25:51,312 --> 01:25:54,982 -->
(Lanzmann) Ask Mr. Gawkowski why he looks so sad.
895
01:25:55,108 --> 01:25:58,110 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
896
01:26:03,867 --> 01:26:06,702 -->
Because I saw men marching to their death.
897
01:26:09,539 --> 01:26:11,874 -->
(Lanzmann) Precisely where are we now?
898
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,710 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
899
01:26:21,593 --> 01:26:26,430 -->
It's not far, a mile and a halffrom here.
900
01:26:26,556 --> 01:26:28,473 -->
- (Lanzmann) What, the camp? - Yes.
901
01:26:30,685 --> 01:26:32,186 -->
Yes.
902
01:26:34,272 --> 01:26:37,941 -->
(Lanzmann) What's that dirt road he's indicating?
903
01:26:41,154 --> 01:26:44,698 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
904
01:26:46,951 --> 01:26:50,120 -->
That's where the rail line into the camp was.
905
01:27:08,348 --> 01:27:12,142 -->
(Lanzmann) Did Mr. Gawkowski, aside from the trains of deportees
906
01:27:12,268 --> 01:27:17,856 -->
that he drove from Warsaw or Bialystok to Treblinka station,
907
01:27:17,982 --> 01:27:22,486 -->
did he ever drive the deportee cars
908
01:27:22,612 --> 01:27:25,530 -->
into the camp from Treblinka station?
909
01:27:26,491 --> 01:27:29,076 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
910
01:27:39,087 --> 01:27:40,295 -->
Yes.
911
01:27:42,382 --> 01:27:46,051 -->
- (Lanzmann) Did he do it often? - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
912
01:27:48,096 --> 01:27:50,764 -->
Two or three times a week.
913
01:27:51,516 --> 01:27:54,268 -->
(Lanzmann) Over how long a period?
914
01:27:57,772 --> 01:28:00,148 -->
Around a year and a half.
915
01:28:00,275 --> 01:28:03,360 -->
(Lanzmann) That is, throughout the camp's existence?
916
01:28:03,486 --> 01:28:05,821 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
917
01:28:05,947 --> 01:28:07,322 -->
Yes.
918
01:28:43,776 --> 01:28:46,737 -->
- (Lanzmann) This is the ramp. - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
919
01:28:46,863 --> 01:28:49,781 -->
Here he is, he goes to the end with his locomotive,
920
01:28:49,907 --> 01:28:53,160 -->
and he has the 20 cars behind him.
921
01:28:53,870 --> 01:28:59,333 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
922
01:28:59,459 --> 01:29:02,294 -->
No, they're in front of him.
923
01:29:02,420 --> 01:29:05,005 -->
He pushed them?
924
01:29:05,131 --> 01:29:07,924 -->
That's right, he pushed them.
925
01:29:08,051 --> 01:29:09,885 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) Yes.
926
01:29:51,844 --> 01:29:53,845 -->
(Piwonski speaks Polish)
927
01:30:05,024 --> 01:30:07,067 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) In February 1942,
928
01:30:07,193 --> 01:30:10,320 -->
I began working here as an assistant switchman.
929
01:30:11,906 --> 01:30:15,200 -->
(Lanzmann) The station building, the rails, the platforms
930
01:30:15,326 --> 01:30:18,328 -->
are just as they were in 1942?
931
01:30:18,454 --> 01:30:23,583 -->
- Nothing's changed? - (Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
932
01:30:23,709 --> 01:30:25,293 -->
Nothing.
933
01:30:25,420 --> 01:30:28,296 -->
Exactly where did the camp begin?
934
01:30:31,384 --> 01:30:33,510 -->
JAN PIWONSKI
935
01:30:34,095 --> 01:30:36,763 -->
I'll show you exactly.
936
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:57,617 -->
Here,
937
01:31:04,083 --> 01:31:07,878 -->
there was a fence that ran to those trees you see there.
938
01:31:08,004 --> 01:31:09,337 -->
(Lanzmann) Yes.
939
01:31:15,178 --> 01:31:18,430 -->
And another fence that ran to those trees over there.
940
01:31:19,348 --> 01:31:23,852 -->
So I'm standing inside the camp perimeter, right?
941
01:31:27,690 --> 01:31:28,732 -->
That's right.
942
01:31:28,858 --> 01:31:32,569 -->
Where I am now is 50 feet from the station,
943
01:31:32,695 --> 01:31:34,404 -->
and I'm already outside the camp.
944
01:31:34,530 --> 01:31:39,075 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 and Piwonski speak Polish)
945
01:31:39,202 --> 01:31:40,368 -->
Yes.
946
01:31:43,873 --> 01:31:46,875 -->
So this is the Polish part, and over there was death?
947
01:31:47,001 --> 01:31:50,086 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
948
01:31:50,213 --> 01:31:51,213 -->
Yes.
949
01:31:53,341 --> 01:31:55,342 -->
(Piwonski continues)
950
01:32:02,016 --> 01:32:06,144 -->
On German orders, Polish railmen split up the trains.
951
01:32:13,903 --> 01:32:15,820 -->
So the locomotive took 20 cars
952
01:32:15,947 --> 01:32:18,490 -->
and headed toward Chelm.
953
01:32:21,827 --> 01:32:23,495 -->
When it reached a switch...
954
01:32:26,249 --> 01:32:32,712 -->
...it pushed the cars into the camp on the other track we can see.
955
01:32:33,548 --> 01:32:34,756 -->
The ramp began there.
956
01:32:34,882 --> 01:32:38,218 -->
So here we're outside the camp,
957
01:32:38,344 --> 01:32:42,722 -->
and back here we enter it.
958
01:32:42,848 --> 01:32:47,519 -->
Unlike Treblinka, the station here is part of the camp.
959
01:32:50,731 --> 01:32:52,190 -->
Yes...
960
01:32:52,984 --> 01:32:57,445 -->
And at this point, we are inside the camp.
961
01:33:00,366 --> 01:33:03,201 -->
(Interpreter j& 1) This track was inside the camp.
962
01:33:04,036 --> 01:33:07,872 -->
And it's exactly as it was? Hmm?
963
01:33:11,460 --> 01:33:13,253 -->
Yes, the same track.
964
01:33:13,713 --> 01:33:15,880 -->
It hasn't changed since then.
965
01:33:16,007 --> 01:33:20,093 -->
Where we are now is what was called the ramp, right?
966
01:33:28,894 --> 01:33:33,648 -->
Yes, those to be exterminated were unloaded here.
967
01:33:33,774 --> 01:33:35,191 -->
So where we're standing
968
01:33:35,318 --> 01:33:40,196 -->
is where 250,000 Jews were unloaded before being gassed?
969
01:33:44,702 --> 01:33:45,702 -->
Yes.
970
01:33:51,334 --> 01:33:56,296 -->
(Lanzmann) Did foreign Jews arrive here in passenger cars, too?
971
01:33:56,422 --> 01:33:58,423 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
972
01:34:03,888 --> 01:34:06,931 -->
Not always.
973
01:34:07,058 --> 01:34:11,394 -->
(Piwonski continues)
974
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:13,480 -->
Often the richest Jews...
975
01:34:15,191 --> 01:34:16,941 -->
...from Belgium, Holland, France...
976
01:34:19,153 --> 01:34:20,654 -->
...arrived in passenger cars...
977
01:34:21,906 --> 01:34:24,574 -->
...sometimes even in 1st class.
978
01:34:28,496 --> 01:34:31,581 -->
They were usually better treated by the guards.
979
01:34:53,979 --> 01:34:57,440 -->
Especially the convoys of Western European Jews
980
01:34:57,566 --> 01:35:00,110 -->
waiting their turn here,
981
01:35:02,947 --> 01:35:07,117 -->
Polish railmen saw the women putting on make-up, combing their hair,
982
01:35:07,243 --> 01:35:10,245 -->
wholly unaware of what awaited them minutes later.
983
01:35:10,371 --> 01:35:11,496 -->
Yes.
984
01:35:11,622 --> 01:35:13,498 -->
They dolled up.
985
01:35:24,510 --> 01:35:26,803 -->
And the Poles couldn't tell them anything,
986
01:35:26,929 --> 01:35:32,225 -->
the guards forbade contact with the future victims.
987
01:35:40,151 --> 01:35:42,694 -->
(Lanzmann) I suppose there were fine days like today.
988
01:35:43,946 --> 01:35:45,947 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 and Piwonski in Polish)
989
01:35:49,994 --> 01:35:53,037 -->
Unfortunately, some were even finer.
990
01:36:00,254 --> 01:36:03,256 -->
RUDOLF VRBA - NEW YORK, USA SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ
991
01:36:03,382 --> 01:36:05,884 -->
(Vrba) There was a place called the ramp,
992
01:36:06,010 --> 01:36:10,054 -->
where the trains with the Jews were coming in, in Auschwitz.
993
01:36:11,766 --> 01:36:14,225 -->
They were coming in day or night,
994
01:36:14,351 --> 01:36:18,104 -->
and sometimes one per day, and sometimes five per day,
995
01:36:18,230 --> 01:36:20,690 -->
from all sorts of places in the world.
996
01:36:21,984 --> 01:36:25,570 -->
I worked there from August 18, 1942
997
01:36:25,696 --> 01:36:29,073 -->
until June 7, 1943.
998
01:36:31,535 --> 01:36:34,370 -->
I saw those transports rolling one after the other,
999
01:36:34,497 --> 01:36:38,625 -->
and I am sure that I have seen at least two hundred of them, in this position.
1000
01:36:40,044 --> 01:36:43,588 -->
I have seen it so many times that it became a routine.
1001
01:36:46,091 --> 01:36:49,010 -->
Constantly, people from the heart of Europe were disappearing,
1002
01:36:49,136 --> 01:36:51,429 -->
and they were arriving to the same place
1003
01:36:51,555 --> 01:36:55,308 -->
with the same ignorance of the fate of the previous transports.
1004
01:36:56,310 --> 01:36:58,978 -->
And that people in this mass...
1005
01:36:59,104 --> 01:37:02,607 -->
And I knew, of course, that within a couple of hours after they arrived there,
1006
01:37:02,733 --> 01:37:06,402 -->
90% of them will be gassed, or something like that. I knew that.
1007
01:37:06,529 --> 01:37:10,532 -->
And somehow, in my thinking, it... I could...
1008
01:37:10,658 --> 01:37:15,119 -->
it was difficult for me to comprehend that people can disappear in this way,
1009
01:37:15,788 --> 01:37:17,205 -->
and nothing is going to happen,
1010
01:37:17,331 --> 01:37:19,958 -->
and then there comes the next transport,
1011
01:37:20,084 --> 01:37:23,878 -->
and they don't know anything about what happened to the previous transport,
1012
01:37:24,004 --> 01:37:27,841 -->
and this is going on for months and months, on and on.
1013
01:37:29,885 --> 01:37:32,971 -->
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU
1014
01:37:34,390 --> 01:37:36,391 -->
So what happened was the following:
1015
01:37:36,892 --> 01:37:41,062 -->
say, a transport of Jews was announced to come at 2:00.
1016
01:37:41,605 --> 01:37:45,233 -->
So when the transport arrived to close stations from Auschwitz,
1017
01:37:45,359 --> 01:37:48,069 -->
the announcement came to the SS.
1018
01:37:48,904 --> 01:37:51,406 -->
Now, one SS man came and woke us up.
1019
01:37:51,532 --> 01:37:55,326 -->
We had to get up and move to the ramp.
1020
01:37:55,452 --> 01:37:58,371 -->
We immediately got an escort in the night,
1021
01:37:58,497 --> 01:38:00,582 -->
and we were escorted to the ramp.
1022
01:38:00,708 --> 01:38:03,126 -->
Say, we were about 200 men.
1023
01:38:04,044 --> 01:38:06,421 -->
And lights went on.
1024
01:38:08,382 --> 01:38:10,049 -->
There was a ramp.
1025
01:38:10,175 --> 01:38:12,969 -->
Around the ramp were lights,
1026
01:38:13,095 --> 01:38:17,557 -->
and under those lights were the cordon of the SS.
1027
01:38:17,683 --> 01:38:21,853 -->
There was one every 10 yards, with a gun in the hand.
1028
01:38:23,147 --> 01:38:26,232 -->
So, we were in the middle, the prisoners,
1029
01:38:26,775 --> 01:38:28,401 -->
and we were waiting,
1030
01:38:28,527 --> 01:38:31,529 -->
waiting for the train, waiting for the next order.
1031
01:38:33,073 --> 01:38:36,242 -->
Now, when all this was done, everybody was there,
1032
01:38:36,785 --> 01:38:38,912 -->
the transport was rolled in.
1033
01:38:40,164 --> 01:38:42,916 -->
This means in a very slow fashion.
1034
01:38:43,542 --> 01:38:46,586 -->
The locomotive, which was always at the front,
1035
01:38:47,129 --> 01:38:49,005 -->
was coming to the ramp,
1036
01:38:49,131 --> 01:38:51,424 -->
and that was the end of the railway line.
1037
01:38:51,550 --> 01:38:55,470 -->
That was the end of the line for everybody who was on the train.
1038
01:39:00,351 --> 01:39:03,353 -->
And, now, the train stopped, and...
1039
01:39:04,647 --> 01:39:07,690 -->
the gangster elite marched on the ramp.
1040
01:39:08,776 --> 01:39:11,945 -->
And in front of every second or every third wagon,
1041
01:39:12,071 --> 01:39:14,530 -->
and sometimes in front of every wagon,
1042
01:39:14,657 --> 01:39:17,075 -->
one of those Unterscharführers...
1043
01:39:19,912 --> 01:39:21,913 -->
...was standing with a key
1044
01:39:22,373 --> 01:39:24,624 -->
and opened the locks,
1045
01:39:24,750 --> 01:39:28,127 -->
because the wagons were locked.
1046
01:39:30,047 --> 01:39:33,257 -->
Now, inside, there were people, of course,
1047
01:39:33,384 --> 01:39:35,718 -->
and you could see the people looking through the windows,
1048
01:39:35,844 --> 01:39:37,303 -->
because they didn't know what's happening.
1049
01:39:37,429 --> 01:39:38,972 -->
They had many stops on their journey.
1050
01:39:39,098 --> 01:39:40,698 -->
Some of them were 10 days on the journey.
1051
01:39:40,766 --> 01:39:43,059 -->
Some were two days on the journey.
1052
01:39:44,269 --> 01:39:46,813 -->
And they didn't know what this particular stop means.
1053
01:39:46,939 --> 01:39:48,982 -->
Now, the door was opened.
1054
01:39:49,858 --> 01:39:52,819 -->
And the first order they were given was,
1055
01:39:52,945 --> 01:39:56,447 -->
"Alle heraus!" "Everybody out!"
1056
01:39:57,616 --> 01:39:59,200 -->
In order to make it quite clear,
1057
01:39:59,326 --> 01:40:03,371 -->
they usually started with those walking sticks
1058
01:40:03,497 --> 01:40:06,874 -->
to hit the first, the second, the third, who were...
1059
01:40:07,001 --> 01:40:08,960 -->
They were... They were...
1060
01:40:09,086 --> 01:40:11,170 -->
They were like sardines in those cars.
1061
01:40:13,924 --> 01:40:17,260 -->
If they expected on that day four, five, six transports,
1062
01:40:17,386 --> 01:40:21,848 -->
the pressure of getting out from the wagons was high.
1063
01:40:28,897 --> 01:40:32,942 -->
Then they used sticks, clubs, cursing, et cetera, et cetera.
1064
01:40:36,071 --> 01:40:38,239 -->
Sometimes, the SS, if it was good weather,
1065
01:40:38,365 --> 01:40:39,907 -->
they used to deal with it differently.
1066
01:40:40,034 --> 01:40:44,370 -->
I mean, I was not surprised if they were in a different mood and...
1067
01:40:44,496 --> 01:40:47,373 -->
and exhibited a lot of humour,
1068
01:40:47,499 --> 01:40:49,375 -->
like saying, "Good morning, Madam,"
1069
01:40:49,501 --> 01:40:51,711 -->
and, "Will you please walk out?"
1070
01:40:51,837 --> 01:40:54,797 -->
- (Lanzmann) It happened? - Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
1071
01:40:54,923 --> 01:40:57,508 -->
And, "How nice that you arrived.
1072
01:40:57,634 --> 01:40:59,886 -->
"We are so sorry that it wasn't too convenient,
1073
01:41:00,012 --> 01:41:02,680 -->
"but now things will become different."
1074
01:41:06,643 --> 01:41:09,479 -->
(Bomba) When we came into Treblinka,
1075
01:41:09,605 --> 01:41:11,981 -->
we didn't know who the people were.
1076
01:41:12,441 --> 01:41:15,943 -->
Some of them, they had armbands, some of them red.
1077
01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:19,781 -->
Some of them, they had blue, Jewish kommando.
1078
01:41:21,450 --> 01:41:23,868 -->
Falling out from the train
1079
01:41:24,411 --> 01:41:27,163 -->
and pushing out each other
1080
01:41:27,289 --> 01:41:30,333 -->
and, over there, losing each other,
1081
01:41:30,459 --> 01:41:34,378 -->
and the... and the... and the crying and the hollering.
1082
01:41:34,505 --> 01:41:37,173 -->
And, coming out,
1083
01:41:38,842 --> 01:41:42,637 -->
we started on one way to the right, one to the left,
1084
01:41:42,763 --> 01:41:45,681 -->
the women to the left and the men on the right.
1085
01:41:46,975 --> 01:41:48,726 -->
And...
1086
01:41:49,686 --> 01:41:53,606 -->
we had no time to even look at each other,
1087
01:41:54,191 --> 01:41:57,777 -->
because they start hitting over the head
1088
01:41:58,362 --> 01:42:00,780 -->
with all kinds of things.
1089
01:42:02,241 --> 01:42:03,658 -->
And...
1090
01:42:05,202 --> 01:42:07,203 -->
it is very, very...
1091
01:42:07,329 --> 01:42:09,205 -->
Painful, it was.
1092
01:42:11,250 --> 01:42:14,836 -->
You didn't know what had happened.
1093
01:42:14,962 --> 01:42:17,463 -->
You had no time to think.
1094
01:42:17,589 --> 01:42:20,424 -->
All you heard is crying.
1095
01:42:20,884 --> 01:42:25,596 -->
And all you heard, all the time, was the hollering of the people.
1096
01:42:26,598 --> 01:42:28,766 -->
(In German) And suddenly it started,
1097
01:42:28,892 --> 01:42:31,561 -->
the yelling and screaming.
1098
01:42:31,687 --> 01:42:33,646 -->
"All out, everybody out!"
1099
01:42:34,106 --> 01:42:38,234 -->
All those shouts, the uproar, the tumult!
1100
01:42:38,777 --> 01:42:41,070 -->
"Out! Get out!
1101
01:42:43,782 --> 01:42:45,992 -->
"Leave the baggage!"
1102
01:42:46,535 --> 01:42:50,288 -->
We got out, stepping on each other.
1103
01:42:55,085 --> 01:43:00,965 -->
We saw men wearing blue armbands.
1104
01:43:01,091 --> 01:43:05,720 -->
Some carried whips.
1105
01:43:07,890 --> 01:43:10,558 -->
We saw some SS men.
1106
01:43:10,684 --> 01:43:13,769 -->
Green uniforms,
1107
01:43:13,896 --> 01:43:18,983 -->
black uniforms...
1108
01:43:21,695 --> 01:43:23,696 -->
We were a mass...
1109
01:43:25,949 --> 01:43:29,410 -->
And the mass swept us along.
1110
01:43:29,536 --> 01:43:34,790 -->
It was irresistible. It had to move to another place.
1111
01:43:47,095 --> 01:43:49,597 -->
I saw the others undressing.
1112
01:43:51,099 --> 01:43:55,645 -->
And I heard, "Get undressed! You're to be disinfected!"
1113
01:43:58,190 --> 01:44:01,734 -->
As I waited, already naked,
1114
01:44:01,860 --> 01:44:08,783 -->
I noticed the SS men separating out some people.
1115
01:44:08,909 --> 01:44:11,244 -->
These were told to get dressed.
1116
01:44:13,163 --> 01:44:19,293 -->
A passing SS man suddenly stopped in front of me,
1117
01:44:20,671 --> 01:44:23,965 -->
looked me over, and said,
1118
01:44:24,091 --> 01:44:29,220 -->
"Yes, you too, quick, join the others, get dressed.
1119
01:44:29,346 --> 01:44:33,891 -->
"You're going to work here, and if you're good,
1120
01:44:34,017 --> 01:44:36,811 -->
"you can be a kapo, a squad leader."
1121
01:44:42,359 --> 01:44:47,530 -->
(Bomba) At my transport, I was waiting, already naked.
1122
01:44:49,324 --> 01:44:53,661 -->
A man came over and asked, "You, you, you, step out."
1123
01:44:53,787 --> 01:44:55,997 -->
We stepped out,
1124
01:44:56,123 --> 01:44:59,959 -->
and they took us a little bit to the side.
1125
01:45:02,087 --> 01:45:05,464 -->
Some of the people from the transport,
1126
01:45:05,590 --> 01:45:07,800 -->
they had an idea what is going on,
1127
01:45:07,926 --> 01:45:12,930 -->
and they know already that they will not stay alive.
1128
01:45:13,932 --> 01:45:17,393 -->
Pushing the people, they didn't want to go,
1129
01:45:17,519 --> 01:45:20,271 -->
or they knew already where they go,
1130
01:45:20,397 --> 01:45:24,483 -->
to that big door.
1131
01:45:26,778 --> 01:45:29,989 -->
The hollering and the crying and the shouting
1132
01:45:30,115 --> 01:45:32,783 -->
what was going over there on,
1133
01:45:34,036 --> 01:45:36,454 -->
it was impossible.
1134
01:45:37,122 --> 01:45:42,793 -->
The cries and the hollers was in your ears and in your mind
1135
01:45:42,919 --> 01:45:45,087 -->
for days and days,
1136
01:45:45,547 --> 01:45:47,673 -->
and, at night, the same thing.
1137
01:45:47,799 --> 01:45:52,303 -->
From that hollering, you could not even sleep a couple nights of that.
1138
01:45:55,182 --> 01:45:59,018 -->
All of a sudden, at one time, everything stopped,
1139
01:45:59,144 --> 01:46:02,063 -->
like by a command.
1140
01:46:14,785 --> 01:46:17,328 -->
It was all quiet,
1141
01:46:17,454 --> 01:46:21,040 -->
the place where the people went in.
1142
01:46:21,917 --> 01:46:24,752 -->
Just like on a command.
1143
01:46:25,712 --> 01:46:27,713 -->
Like everything was dead.
1144
01:46:39,351 --> 01:46:45,689 -->
Then, they told us to make clean the whole place.
1145
01:46:45,816 --> 01:46:50,444 -->
It was about 2,000 people
1146
01:46:50,570 --> 01:46:53,489 -->
which they undressed on the outside.
1147
01:46:54,950 --> 01:46:59,703 -->
To take the whole thing away and to clear up the place,
1148
01:46:59,830 --> 01:47:04,041 -->
and that has to be done in minutes.
1149
01:47:06,461 --> 01:47:10,131 -->
Some of the Germans, some of the other people that were there,
1150
01:47:10,257 --> 01:47:12,383 -->
the Ukrainians or the other ones,
1151
01:47:12,509 --> 01:47:18,889 -->
they start shouting and hitting us that we should do it faster,
1152
01:47:19,015 --> 01:47:25,062 -->
to carry the bundles on our backs faster to the main place,
1153
01:47:26,064 --> 01:47:32,528 -->
where it was big places of clothes,
1154
01:47:32,654 --> 01:47:35,823 -->
of shoes, of other things.
1155
01:47:36,450 --> 01:47:39,160 -->
In no time, this was clean,
1156
01:47:39,286 --> 01:47:41,287 -->
just like it never happened,
1157
01:47:41,413 --> 01:47:44,665 -->
that never was people on that place again.
1158
01:47:45,417 --> 01:47:50,212 -->
There was no trace, not at all.
1159
01:47:51,006 --> 01:47:55,217 -->
Like a magic thing, everything disappeared.
1160
01:47:56,970 --> 01:47:59,889 -->
BIRKENAU: THE RAMP
1161
01:48:04,519 --> 01:48:06,770 -->
(Vrba) Whenever a new transport came,
1162
01:48:06,897 --> 01:48:11,025 -->
the ramp was cleaned absolutely to zero point.
1163
01:48:14,613 --> 01:48:18,991 -->
No trace from the previous transport was allowed to remain.
1164
01:48:20,327 --> 01:48:22,369 -->
Not one trace.
1165
01:48:33,256 --> 01:48:37,218 -->
(Glazar in German) We were taken to the barracks.
1166
01:48:38,637 --> 01:48:42,139 -->
The whole place stank.
1167
01:48:44,392 --> 01:48:48,312 -->
Piled about five feet high
1168
01:48:48,438 --> 01:48:53,359 -->
in a jumbled mass,
1169
01:48:53,485 --> 01:48:58,405 -->
were all the things people could conceivably have brought.
1170
01:48:59,824 --> 01:49:03,369 -->
Clothes, suitcases,
1171
01:49:03,495 --> 01:49:08,707 -->
everything stacked in a solid mass.
1172
01:49:09,793 --> 01:49:13,671 -->
On top of it, jumping around like demons,
1173
01:49:13,797 --> 01:49:19,718 -->
people were making bundles
1174
01:49:19,844 --> 01:49:23,138 -->
and carrying them outside.
1175
01:49:24,057 --> 01:49:28,185 -->
I was turned over to one of these men.
1176
01:49:28,311 --> 01:49:33,023 -->
His armband said, "Squad Leader."
1177
01:49:33,692 --> 01:49:35,234 -->
He shouted,
1178
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:41,448 -->
and I understood that I was also to pick up clothing, bundle it,
1179
01:49:43,118 --> 01:49:48,831 -->
and take it somewhere.
1180
01:49:51,251 --> 01:49:54,753 -->
As I worked, I asked him,
1181
01:49:54,879 --> 01:49:59,466 -->
"What's going on? The undressed ones, where are they?"
1182
01:50:00,552 --> 01:50:05,598 -->
And he replied, "Dead! All dead!"
1183
01:50:07,976 --> 01:50:12,605 -->
But it still hadn't sunk in, I didn't believe it.
1184
01:50:13,273 --> 01:50:15,065 -->
He'd used the Yiddish word.
1185
01:50:15,191 --> 01:50:20,821 -->
It was the first time I'd heard Yiddish spoken.
1186
01:50:23,575 --> 01:50:27,828 -->
He didn't say it very loud,
1187
01:50:28,913 --> 01:50:33,834 -->
and I saw he had tears in his eyes.
1188
01:50:34,878 --> 01:50:38,672 -->
Suddenly he started shouting
1189
01:50:38,798 --> 01:50:40,924 -->
and raised his whip.
1190
01:50:41,051 --> 01:50:46,055 -->
Out of the corner of my eyes, I saw an SS man coming.
1191
01:50:46,181 --> 01:50:50,434 -->
And I understood that I was to ask no more questions,
1192
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:56,899 -->
but just to rush outside with the package.
1193
01:51:00,904 --> 01:51:04,448 -->
(Bomba) At that time, we start working
1194
01:51:04,574 --> 01:51:08,452 -->
in that place which they call Treblinka.
1195
01:51:10,330 --> 01:51:13,290 -->
And still, I couldn't believe what had happened
1196
01:51:13,416 --> 01:51:17,294 -->
over there on the other side of the gate,
1197
01:51:17,962 --> 01:51:21,465 -->
where the people went in, disappeared,
1198
01:51:21,591 --> 01:51:24,218 -->
or everything got quiet.
1199
01:51:27,639 --> 01:51:29,765 -->
But in a minute, we find out,
1200
01:51:29,891 --> 01:51:33,727 -->
when we start to ask the people which they worked before us
1201
01:51:33,853 --> 01:51:35,604 -->
what had happened with them.
1202
01:51:35,730 --> 01:51:39,233 -->
They said, "What do you mean, what happened? Don't you know that?
1203
01:51:40,068 --> 01:51:43,028 -->
"They're all gassed. They're all killed."
1204
01:51:43,780 --> 01:51:48,283 -->
It was impossible to say something
1205
01:51:48,827 --> 01:51:51,286 -->
because we were just like stones.
1206
01:51:51,413 --> 01:51:54,248 -->
We couldn't mention what had happened to the wife,
1207
01:51:54,374 --> 01:51:55,833 -->
what had happened to the kid.
1208
01:51:55,959 --> 01:51:58,001 -->
"What do you mean, wife? What do you mean, kid?
1209
01:51:58,128 --> 01:52:00,295 -->
"Nobody is anymore alive!"
1210
01:52:00,422 --> 01:52:02,840 -->
"What do you mean, they're not alive? How could they...?
1211
01:52:02,966 --> 01:52:07,553 -->
"How could they kill, how could they gas so many people at once?"
1212
01:52:07,679 --> 01:52:10,973 -->
But they had their way how to do it.
1213
01:52:19,983 --> 01:52:24,611 -->
(Glazar) All I could think of then was my friend Carel Unger.
1214
01:52:26,322 --> 01:52:29,908 -->
He'd been at the rear of the train,
1215
01:52:30,034 --> 01:52:34,830 -->
in a section that had been uncoupled and left outside.
1216
01:52:36,666 --> 01:52:41,587 -->
I needed someone. Near me. With me.
1217
01:52:45,049 --> 01:52:49,052 -->
Then I saw him. He was in the 2nd group.
1218
01:52:49,179 --> 01:52:51,847 -->
He'd been spared too.
1219
01:52:54,559 --> 01:52:59,772 -->
On the way, somehow, he had learned, he already knew.
1220
01:52:59,898 --> 01:53:02,524 -->
He looked at me,
1221
01:53:03,943 --> 01:53:09,823 -->
all he said was, "Richard, my father, mother, brother..."
1222
01:53:11,785 --> 01:53:14,995 -->
He had learned on the way there.
1223
01:53:17,749 --> 01:53:21,460 -->
(Lanzmann) Your meeting with Carel,
1224
01:53:21,586 --> 01:53:25,255 -->
how long after your arrival did it happen?
1225
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:33,514 -->
It was... around 20 minutes after we reached Treblinka.
1226
01:53:40,563 --> 01:53:43,649 -->
Then I left the barracks
1227
01:53:43,775 --> 01:53:48,695 -->
and had my first look at the vast space
1228
01:53:49,447 --> 01:53:56,620 -->
that I soon learned was called "the sorting place."
1229
01:53:57,789 --> 01:54:03,168 -->
It was buried under mountains of objects of all kinds.
1230
01:54:03,920 --> 01:54:08,549 -->
Mountains of shoes, of clothes, 30 feet high.
1231
01:54:11,344 --> 01:54:15,264 -->
I thought about it and said to Carel,
1232
01:54:15,390 --> 01:54:18,559 -->
"It's a hurricane, a raging sea.
1233
01:54:18,685 --> 01:54:22,729 -->
"We're shipwrecked. And we're still alive.
1234
01:54:22,856 --> 01:54:25,274 -->
"We must do nothing
1235
01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:28,569 -->
"but watch for every new wave,
1236
01:54:28,695 --> 01:54:31,738 -->
"float on it,
1237
01:54:31,865 --> 01:54:37,744 -->
"get ready for the next wave,
1238
01:54:37,871 --> 01:54:39,913 -->
"and ride the wave at all costs.
1239
01:54:40,039 --> 01:54:42,499 -->
"And nothing else."
1240
01:54:45,295 --> 01:54:48,338 -->
That's how the day went through,
1241
01:54:49,257 --> 01:54:51,383 -->
without anything.
1242
01:54:51,509 --> 01:54:53,302 -->
No drinking.
1243
01:54:53,428 --> 01:54:57,180 -->
We were 24 hours without water, without anything.
1244
01:54:57,307 --> 01:54:58,807 -->
We couldn't drink.
1245
01:54:58,933 --> 01:55:02,311 -->
We couldn't have anything taken into our mouths,
1246
01:55:02,437 --> 01:55:04,813 -->
because it was impossible.
1247
01:55:04,939 --> 01:55:07,608 -->
Just the meaning that before...
1248
01:55:07,734 --> 01:55:09,735 -->
a minute, an hour before,
1249
01:55:09,861 --> 01:55:11,778 -->
you were part of a family,
1250
01:55:11,905 --> 01:55:14,990 -->
you were part of a wife or a husband,
1251
01:55:15,116 --> 01:55:19,953 -->
and now, all of a sudden, everything is dead.
1252
01:55:21,247 --> 01:55:23,832 -->
We went into a special barrack,
1253
01:55:24,667 --> 01:55:28,503 -->
where I was sleeping right next to the wall.
1254
01:55:29,672 --> 01:55:33,425 -->
And over there, that night,
1255
01:55:33,551 --> 01:55:36,762 -->
it was the most horrible night for all the people,
1256
01:55:37,764 --> 01:55:40,223 -->
because the memory of all those things,
1257
01:55:40,350 --> 01:55:43,226 -->
what people went through with each other,
1258
01:55:43,353 --> 01:55:44,937 -->
all the joys and the happiness,
1259
01:55:45,063 --> 01:55:48,523 -->
and the births and the weddings and other things,
1260
01:55:48,650 --> 01:55:51,068 -->
and all of a sudden, in one second,
1261
01:55:51,194 --> 01:55:54,071 -->
to cut that through without anything,
1262
01:55:54,197 --> 01:55:56,448 -->
and without any guilt of the people,
1263
01:55:56,574 --> 01:55:58,575 -->
because the people were not guilty at all.
1264
01:55:58,701 --> 01:56:02,704 -->
The only guilt from them was because they were Jewish people.
1265
01:56:05,333 --> 01:56:09,086 -->
Most of us, we were all up at night,
1266
01:56:09,212 --> 01:56:13,131 -->
trying to talk to each other, which was not allowed.
1267
01:56:13,257 --> 01:56:16,468 -->
The commandant was sleeping in the same barrack.
1268
01:56:16,594 --> 01:56:19,137 -->
We were not allowed to talk to each other
1269
01:56:19,263 --> 01:56:24,935 -->
or to express our view or our minds to each other
1270
01:56:25,770 --> 01:56:30,023 -->
until the morning, at 5:00,
1271
01:56:31,109 --> 01:56:35,612 -->
we start going out from the barracks.
1272
01:56:37,281 --> 01:56:38,949 -->
In the morning,
1273
01:56:39,993 --> 01:56:44,788 -->
when they had an Appelle to go out from the barracks,
1274
01:56:44,914 --> 01:56:46,707 -->
from our group,
1275
01:56:46,833 --> 01:56:51,753 -->
I would say at least four or five were dead.
1276
01:56:52,588 --> 01:56:55,882 -->
I don't know how the thing happened that, what?
1277
01:56:56,009 --> 01:57:02,681 -->
They must have with them some kind of... some kind of poison
1278
01:57:02,807 --> 01:57:04,891 -->
in which they poisoned themselves.
1279
01:57:05,018 --> 01:57:07,102 -->
Some of them there,
1280
01:57:07,228 --> 01:57:10,313 -->
I would say at least of them were my friends,
1281
01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:12,691 -->
two of my close friends.
1282
01:57:12,817 --> 01:57:14,818 -->
They didn't say anything.
1283
01:57:14,944 --> 01:57:18,155 -->
We didn't even know that they have with them poison.
1284
01:57:23,119 --> 01:57:26,413 -->
(Glazar in German) Greenery, sand everywhere else.
1285
01:57:26,539 --> 01:57:29,666 -->
At night, we were put into barracks.
1286
01:57:29,792 --> 01:57:31,710 -->
It just had a sand floor.
1287
01:57:31,836 --> 01:57:34,296 -->
Nothing else.
1288
01:57:34,756 --> 01:57:40,177 -->
Each of us simply dropped where he stood.
1289
01:57:40,928 --> 01:57:47,184 -->
Half asleep, I heard some men hang themselves.
1290
01:57:47,310 --> 01:57:51,521 -->
We didn't react then. It was almost normal.
1291
01:57:52,940 --> 01:57:54,983 -->
Just as it was normal
1292
01:57:55,109 --> 01:58:02,657 -->
that for everyone behind whom the gate of Treblinka closed,
1293
01:58:03,117 --> 01:58:07,079 -->
there was death, had to be death,
1294
01:58:07,205 --> 01:58:14,044 -->
for no one was supposed to be left to bear witness.
1295
01:58:15,838 --> 01:58:19,925 -->
I already knew that,
1296
01:58:20,051 --> 01:58:25,597 -->
three hours after arriving at Treblinka.
1297
01:58:39,904 --> 01:58:43,573 -->
(j& Man sings in German: "Mandolinen um Mitternacht")
1298
02:00:26,594 --> 02:00:28,595 -->
BERLIN
1299
02:00:29,764 --> 02:00:32,641 -->
(Woman) This is no longer home, you see?
1300
02:00:33,893 --> 02:00:36,978 -->
And, especially, it's no longer home
1301
02:00:37,104 --> 02:00:41,566 -->
when they start telling me that they didn't know, they didn't know.
1302
02:00:41,692 --> 02:00:43,401 -->
They say they didn't see.
1303
02:00:43,527 --> 02:00:45,654 -->
"Yes, there were Jews living in our house.
1304
02:00:45,780 --> 02:00:47,572 -->
"One day, they were no longer there.
1305
02:00:47,698 --> 02:00:50,116 -->
"We didn't know what happened."
1306
02:00:51,118 --> 02:00:55,163 -->
They couldn't help seeing it. It was not a matter of one action.
1307
02:00:55,289 --> 02:00:59,918 -->
These were actions that were taking place over almost two years.
1308
02:01:00,544 --> 02:01:04,714 -->
There was always... Every fortnight people were torn out of the houses.
1309
02:01:04,840 --> 02:01:08,176 -->
How could they escape it? How could they not see it?
1310
02:01:10,388 --> 02:01:14,349 -->
I remember that day on which they made Berlin judenrein.
1311
02:01:14,475 --> 02:01:18,270 -->
The people hastened in the streets. They didn't want to be in the street.
1312
02:01:18,396 --> 02:01:21,606 -->
You could see the streets were absolutely empty.
1313
02:01:22,358 --> 02:01:24,192 -->
They didn't want to look, you know?
1314
02:01:24,318 --> 02:01:26,695 -->
They sort of hastened to buy what they had to buy.
1315
02:01:26,821 --> 02:01:30,240 -->
It was Saturday, and they had to buy something for the Sunday, you see?
1316
02:01:30,366 --> 02:01:34,869 -->
So they went shopping and hastened back into their houses.
1317
02:01:41,711 --> 02:01:43,962 -->
And I remember this day very vividly,
1318
02:01:44,088 --> 02:01:47,799 -->
because we saw police cars
1319
02:01:47,925 --> 02:01:51,469 -->
rushing through the streets of Berlin,
1320
02:01:51,595 --> 02:01:54,597 -->
taking people out of the houses.
1321
02:01:55,099 --> 02:01:58,059 -->
They had herded together from factories, from the houses,
1322
02:01:58,185 --> 02:02:00,353 -->
wherever they could find the Jews,
1323
02:02:00,479 --> 02:02:05,275 -->
and had put them into something that was called Klu.
1324
02:02:05,401 --> 02:02:10,780 -->
Klu was a dance restaurant, a very big one.
1325
02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:15,702 -->
From there, they were deported in various transports.
1326
02:02:16,871 --> 02:02:18,872 -->
They were going off not far from here,
1327
02:02:18,998 --> 02:02:21,916 -->
on one of the tracks of the Bahnhof Grunewald.
1328
02:02:25,171 --> 02:02:28,757 -->
And this was a day when I felt so...
1329
02:02:28,883 --> 02:02:31,259 -->
suddenly so utterly alone,
1330
02:02:31,385 --> 02:02:34,512 -->
so utterly left alone...
1331
02:02:38,893 --> 02:02:43,104 -->
...because now I knew we would be one of the very few people left.
1332
02:02:43,230 --> 02:02:46,900 -->
I didn't know how many more would be underground.
1333
02:02:56,702 --> 02:03:01,539 -->
And this was a day when I felt very guilty that I didn't go myself,
1334
02:03:01,665 --> 02:03:08,171 -->
that I tried to escape a fate that the others could not escape.
1335
02:03:09,757 --> 02:03:15,804 -->
There was no more warmth around, no more soul akin to us, you understand?
1336
02:03:15,930 --> 02:03:17,389 -->
And we talked about this.
1337
02:03:17,515 --> 02:03:20,850 -->
"What happened to Elsa, and what happened to Hans?"
1338
02:03:20,976 --> 02:03:24,312 -->
"Where is he, and where is she? Do you know this?"
1339
02:03:24,438 --> 02:03:26,606 -->
"My God, what happened to the child?"
1340
02:03:26,732 --> 02:03:30,568 -->
You know, these were our talks on that horrible day.
1341
02:03:30,694 --> 02:03:36,282 -->
This feeling of being terribly alone and terribly guilty that we did not go...
1342
02:03:36,409 --> 02:03:39,702 -->
- (Lanzmann) Guilty? - That we did not go with them.
1343
02:03:41,163 --> 02:03:43,164 -->
(Man shouting in German)
1344
02:03:54,718 --> 02:03:57,387 -->
Why did we try? Why? Why?
1345
02:03:57,513 --> 02:03:59,389 -->
What made us do this,
1346
02:03:59,515 --> 02:04:02,100 -->
to escape a fate that was really our destiny
1347
02:04:02,226 --> 02:04:04,519 -->
or the destiny of our people?
1348
02:04:04,645 --> 02:04:08,648 -->
INGE DEUTSCHKRON BORN IN BERLIN
1349
02:04:08,774 --> 02:04:12,861 -->
LIVED THERE THROUGH THE WAR
1350
02:04:12,987 --> 02:04:17,240 -->
IN HIDING BEGINNING IN FEBRUARY 1943
1351
02:04:17,366 --> 02:04:20,368 -->
NOW LIVES IN ISRAEL
1352
02:04:54,153 --> 02:04:57,780 -->
FRANZ SUCHOMEL: SS Unterscharführer
1353
02:04:59,992 --> 02:05:03,786 -->
(Lanzmann in German) Are you ready? (Suchomel in German) Yes.
1354
02:05:03,913 --> 02:05:06,331 -->
- (Lanzmann) Then we can... - We can begin.
1355
02:05:06,457 --> 02:05:08,458 -->
(Lanzmann) We can begin.
1356
02:05:10,294 --> 02:05:14,506 -->
(Lanzmann) How's your heart? Is everything in order?
1357
02:05:15,716 --> 02:05:18,593 -->
(Suchomel) Oh, my heart... For the moment, it's all right.
1358
02:05:18,719 --> 02:05:22,305 -->
If I have any pain, I'll tell you.
1359
02:05:22,431 --> 02:05:25,767 -->
- We'll have to break off. - (Lanzmann) Of course.
1360
02:05:27,811 --> 02:05:30,230 -->
But your health, in general, is...
1361
02:05:30,356 --> 02:05:34,108 -->
(Suchomel) The weather today suits me fine.
1362
02:05:34,235 --> 02:05:38,863 -->
The barometric pressure is high. That's good for me.
1363
02:05:38,989 --> 02:05:43,826 -->
(Lanzmann) You look to be in good shape, anyway.
1364
02:05:43,953 --> 02:05:49,082 -->
- Let's begin with Treblinka. - Certainly.
1365
02:05:49,208 --> 02:05:51,459 -->
(Lanzmann) I think that's best.
1366
02:05:51,585 --> 02:05:55,755 -->
If you could give us...
1367
02:05:57,299 --> 02:06:01,177 -->
...a description of Treblinka.
1368
02:06:01,887 --> 02:06:05,265 -->
How did it look when you arrived?
1369
02:06:05,391 --> 02:06:10,436 -->
- I believe you got there in August? - Mid-August.
1370
02:06:10,563 --> 02:06:14,399 -->
- Was it August 20 or 24? - 18th.
1371
02:06:14,525 --> 02:06:17,485 -->
- The 18th? - I don't know exactly.
1372
02:06:17,611 --> 02:06:20,947 -->
Around August 20.
1373
02:06:21,073 --> 02:06:22,073 -->
(Lanzmann) Yes.
1374
02:06:22,199 --> 02:06:26,160 -->
(Suchomel) I arrived there with seven other men.
1375
02:06:26,787 --> 02:06:29,706 -->
- (Lanzmann) From Berlin? - From Berlin.
1376
02:06:29,832 --> 02:06:31,666 -->
(Lanzmann) From Lublin?
1377
02:06:32,334 --> 02:06:36,337 -->
(Suchomel) From Berlin to Warsaw, from Warsaw to Lublin,
1378
02:06:36,463 --> 02:06:42,010 -->
from Lublin back to Warsaw and from Warsaw to Treblinka.
1379
02:06:42,136 --> 02:06:46,472 -->
(Lanzmann) What was Treblinka like then?
1380
02:06:47,141 --> 02:06:52,061 -->
Treblinka then was operating at full capacity.
1381
02:06:52,646 --> 02:06:55,315 -->
- Full capacity? - Full capacity.
1382
02:06:56,984 --> 02:06:59,319 -->
Trains arrived...
1383
02:07:00,613 --> 02:07:04,699 -->
The Warsaw ghetto was being emptied then.
1384
02:07:04,825 --> 02:07:06,200 -->
Yes.
1385
02:07:06,827 --> 02:07:13,416 -->
Three trains arrived in two days...
1386
02:07:14,960 --> 02:07:22,091 -->
...each with three, four, five thousand people aboard,
1387
02:07:23,052 --> 02:07:25,553 -->
all from Warsaw.
1388
02:07:26,221 --> 02:07:31,392 -->
But at the same time, other trains came in
1389
02:07:32,269 --> 02:07:37,065 -->
from Kielce and other places.
1390
02:07:38,067 --> 02:07:41,277 -->
So three trains arrived,
1391
02:07:42,237 --> 02:07:48,451 -->
and since the offensive against Stalingrad was in fear,
1392
02:07:48,577 --> 02:07:53,498 -->
the trainloads of Jews were left on a station siding.
1393
02:07:54,458 --> 02:08:00,296 -->
What's more, the cars were French,
1394
02:08:00,422 --> 02:08:02,799 -->
made of steel.
1395
02:08:02,925 --> 02:08:09,138 -->
So that while 5,000 Jews arrived in Treblinka,
1396
02:08:09,765 --> 02:08:12,517 -->
3,000 were dead.
1397
02:08:13,185 --> 02:08:15,311 -->
In the cars.
1398
02:08:15,437 --> 02:08:17,980 -->
They had slashed their wrists,
1399
02:08:19,858 --> 02:08:22,735 -->
or just died.
1400
02:08:25,364 --> 02:08:29,701 -->
The ones we unloaded were half-dead
1401
02:08:29,827 --> 02:08:34,789 -->
and... half-mad.
1402
02:08:37,084 --> 02:08:42,922 -->
In the other trains from Kielce
1403
02:08:43,048 --> 02:08:45,550 -->
and elsewhere,
1404
02:08:46,260 --> 02:08:49,053 -->
at least halfwere dead.
1405
02:08:50,013 --> 02:08:54,142 -->
We stacked them here, here,
1406
02:08:56,186 --> 02:08:58,271 -->
here and here.
1407
02:08:58,856 --> 02:09:01,733 -->
Thousands of people
1408
02:09:02,735 --> 02:09:05,945 -->
piled one on top of another.
1409
02:09:08,073 --> 02:09:10,408 -->
- (Lanzmann) On the ramp? - On the ramp.
1410
02:09:11,076 --> 02:09:14,495 -->
Stacked like wood.
1411
02:09:14,621 --> 02:09:15,830 -->
In addition,
1412
02:09:15,956 --> 02:09:21,669 -->
other Jews, still alive, waited there for two days.
1413
02:09:21,795 --> 02:09:26,132 -->
The small gas chambers could no longer handle the number.
1414
02:09:26,258 --> 02:09:33,139 -->
They functioned day and night in that period.
1415
02:09:33,265 --> 02:09:38,060 -->
Can you please describe, very precisely,
1416
02:09:38,187 --> 02:09:42,231 -->
your first impression of Treblinka?
1417
02:09:42,357 --> 02:09:46,194 -->
Very precisely. It's very important.
1418
02:09:46,320 --> 02:09:50,823 -->
My first impression of Treblinka,
1419
02:09:51,450 --> 02:09:57,497 -->
and that of some of the other men, was catastrophic.
1420
02:09:58,415 --> 02:10:01,375 -->
For we had not been told
1421
02:10:02,211 --> 02:10:07,632 -->
how and what... that people were being killed there.
1422
02:10:07,758 --> 02:10:09,258 -->
They hadn't told us.
1423
02:10:09,384 --> 02:10:11,511 -->
- You didn't know? - No.
1424
02:10:12,137 --> 02:10:14,680 -->
That's incredible.
1425
02:10:14,807 --> 02:10:18,851 -->
But true. I didn't want to go.
1426
02:10:19,770 --> 02:10:22,438 -->
- That was proved at my trial. - Yes.
1427
02:10:22,564 --> 02:10:24,816 -->
I was told,
1428
02:10:24,942 --> 02:10:26,859 -->
"Mr. Suchomel,
1429
02:10:27,528 --> 02:10:31,781 -->
"there are big workshops there for tailors and shoemakers,
1430
02:10:31,907 --> 02:10:34,325 -->
"and you'll be guarding them."
1431
02:10:34,451 --> 02:10:35,993 -->
- Yes. - Nothing more.
1432
02:10:36,119 --> 02:10:39,914 -->
But you knew it was a camp?
1433
02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:42,667 -->
Yes, we were told,
1434
02:10:42,793 --> 02:10:49,006 -->
"The Führer ordered a resettlement program.
1435
02:10:49,132 --> 02:10:52,885 -->
"That's an order from the Führer."
1436
02:10:53,011 --> 02:10:54,762 -->
- Understand? - Resettlement program...
1437
02:10:54,888 --> 02:10:58,224 -->
A resettlement program.
1438
02:10:59,101 --> 02:11:01,978 -->
No one ever spoke of killing.
1439
02:11:02,104 --> 02:11:04,856 -->
(Lanzmann) I understand.
1440
02:11:04,982 --> 02:11:09,193 -->
Mr. Suchomel, we're not discussing you,
1441
02:11:09,319 --> 02:11:11,237 -->
only Treblinka.
1442
02:11:11,363 --> 02:11:14,740 -->
You are a very important eyewitness,
1443
02:11:14,867 --> 02:11:19,662 -->
and you can explain what Treblinka was.
1444
02:11:19,788 --> 02:11:25,877 -->
- (Suchomel) But don't use my name. - No, I promise.
1445
02:11:26,003 --> 02:11:27,962 -->
(Suchomel mutters)
1446
02:11:28,088 --> 02:11:31,090 -->
(Lanzmann) All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.
1447
02:11:31,216 --> 02:11:37,889 -->
(Suchomel) So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camp
1448
02:11:40,100 --> 02:11:43,728 -->
From end to end.
1449
02:11:45,981 --> 02:11:49,734 -->
Just as we went by,
1450
02:11:49,860 --> 02:11:55,489 -->
they were opening the gas chamber doors,
1451
02:11:55,616 --> 02:12:00,202 -->
and people fell out like potatoes.
1452
02:12:03,540 --> 02:12:08,544 -->
Naturally, that horrified and appalled us.
1453
02:12:09,046 --> 02:12:13,633 -->
We went back and sat down on our suitcases
1454
02:12:13,759 --> 02:12:17,219 -->
and cried like old women.
1455
02:12:21,725 --> 02:12:26,395 -->
Each day, 100 Jews were chosen
1456
02:12:27,022 --> 02:12:31,067 -->
to drag the corpses to the mass graves.
1457
02:12:32,402 --> 02:12:40,402 -->
In the evening, the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers
1458
02:12:40,535 --> 02:12:42,119 -->
or shot them.
1459
02:12:42,245 --> 02:12:43,996 -->
Every day.
1460
02:12:46,458 --> 02:12:49,669 -->
It was in the hottest days of August.
1461
02:12:53,131 --> 02:12:58,052 -->
The ground undulated like waves
1462
02:12:58,178 --> 02:12:59,887 -->
because of the gas.
1463
02:13:00,013 --> 02:13:02,556 -->
- (Lanzmann) From the bodies? - Yes.
1464
02:13:02,683 --> 02:13:08,104 -->
Bear in mind, the graves were maybe 18, 20 feet deep.
1465
02:13:08,230 --> 02:13:12,650 -->
All crammed with bodies.
1466
02:13:13,443 --> 02:13:17,989 -->
A thin layer of sand and the heat. You see?
1467
02:13:18,115 --> 02:13:20,366 -->
It was hell up there.
1468
02:13:20,492 --> 02:13:25,746 -->
- (Lanzmann) You saw that? - Yes, just once, the first day.
1469
02:13:25,872 --> 02:13:28,833 -->
We puked and wept.
1470
02:13:28,959 --> 02:13:31,585 -->
- You wept? - We wept too, yes.
1471
02:13:35,882 --> 02:13:38,759 -->
- The smell was infernal. - Infernal?
1472
02:13:38,885 --> 02:13:43,097 -->
Yes, because gas was constantly escaping.
1473
02:13:43,223 --> 02:13:47,852 -->
It stank horribly, for miles around.
1474
02:13:47,978 --> 02:13:50,146 -->
- Miles? - Miles!
1475
02:13:50,272 --> 02:13:53,107 -->
- You could smell it all around? - All around!
1476
02:13:53,233 --> 02:13:55,234 -->
Not just in the camp?
1477
02:13:55,360 --> 02:13:59,488 -->
Everywhere. It depended on the wind.
1478
02:13:59,614 --> 02:14:02,575 -->
The stink was carried on the wind.
1479
02:14:03,577 --> 02:14:05,494 -->
Understand?
1480
02:14:13,628 --> 02:14:17,840 -->
(Suchomel) More people kept coming, always more,
1481
02:14:17,966 --> 02:14:21,802 -->
whom we hadn't the facilities to kill.
1482
02:14:27,684 --> 02:14:33,022 -->
Those gents were in a rush to clean out the Warsaw ghetto.
1483
02:14:36,359 --> 02:14:40,321 -->
The gas chambers couldn't handle the load.
1484
02:14:40,447 --> 02:14:42,990 -->
The small gas chambers.
1485
02:14:59,549 --> 02:15:03,094 -->
The Jews had to wait their turn
1486
02:15:03,220 --> 02:15:07,723 -->
for a day, 2 days, 3 days.
1487
02:15:14,022 --> 02:15:16,398 -->
They foresaw what was coming.
1488
02:15:17,526 --> 02:15:20,069 -->
They foresaw it.
1489
02:15:21,404 --> 02:15:26,742 -->
They may not have been certain, but many knew.
1490
02:15:31,581 --> 02:15:36,210 -->
There were Jewish women
1491
02:15:36,753 --> 02:15:40,673 -->
who slashed their daughters' wrists at night,
1492
02:15:40,799 --> 02:15:44,135 -->
then cut their own.
1493
02:15:44,928 --> 02:15:47,638 -->
Others poisoned themselves.
1494
02:15:48,932 --> 02:15:54,478 -->
They heard the engine feeding the gas chamber.
1495
02:15:57,607 --> 02:16:02,194 -->
A tank engine was used in that gas chamber.
1496
02:16:03,989 --> 02:16:09,535 -->
At Treblinka, the only gas used was engine exhaust.
1497
02:16:09,995 --> 02:16:12,413 -->
Zyklon gas, that was Auschwitz.
1498
02:16:19,087 --> 02:16:22,923 -->
Because of the delay,
1499
02:16:23,675 --> 02:16:28,470 -->
Eberl, the camp commandant,
1500
02:16:29,431 --> 02:16:33,767 -->
phoned Lublin and said,
1501
02:16:34,519 --> 02:16:38,647 -->
"We can't go on this way. I can't do it any longer.
1502
02:16:38,773 --> 02:16:42,943 -->
"We have to break off."
1503
02:16:43,069 --> 02:16:46,780 -->
Overnight, Wirth arrived.
1504
02:16:47,908 --> 02:16:51,619 -->
He inspected everything and then left.
1505
02:16:51,745 --> 02:16:55,873 -->
He returned with people from Belzec,
1506
02:16:55,999 --> 02:16:58,334 -->
experts.
1507
02:16:59,502 --> 02:17:04,131 -->
Wirth arranged to suspend the trains.
1508
02:17:06,676 --> 02:17:11,680 -->
The corpses lying there were cleared away.
1509
02:17:13,183 --> 02:17:17,811 -->
That was the period of the old gas chambers.
1510
02:17:18,355 --> 02:17:23,400 -->
Because there were so many dead
1511
02:17:23,526 --> 02:17:26,278 -->
that couldn't be gotten rid of,
1512
02:17:26,863 --> 02:17:31,116 -->
for days and days,
1513
02:17:32,452 --> 02:17:37,581 -->
the bodies piled up around the gas chambers.
1514
02:17:38,875 --> 02:17:43,254 -->
Under this pile of bodies was a cesspool,
1515
02:17:44,005 --> 02:17:48,592 -->
three inches deep, full of blood, worms...
1516
02:17:50,220 --> 02:17:52,429 -->
...and shit.
1517
02:17:54,641 --> 02:17:58,560 -->
- Where? - In front of the gas chamber.
1518
02:18:00,397 --> 02:18:03,148 -->
No one wanted to clean it out.
1519
02:18:03,275 --> 02:18:07,319 -->
The Jews preferred to be shot
1520
02:18:08,446 --> 02:18:11,282 -->
rather than work there.
1521
02:18:11,950 --> 02:18:14,451 -->
- Preferred to be shot? - To be shot.
1522
02:18:17,289 --> 02:18:23,210 -->
It was awful. Burying their own people, seeing it all...
1523
02:18:23,336 --> 02:18:27,715 -->
The dead flesh came off in their hands.
1524
02:18:28,800 --> 02:18:31,885 -->
So Wirth went there himself
1525
02:18:32,929 --> 02:18:34,930 -->
with a few Germans
1526
02:18:36,683 --> 02:18:40,686 -->
and he had long belts rigged up
1527
02:18:41,146 --> 02:18:45,691 -->
that were wrapped around the dead torsos to pull them.
1528
02:18:45,817 --> 02:18:48,235 -->
- Who did that? - The SS men.
1529
02:18:48,361 --> 02:18:50,404 -->
- Wirth? - SS men and Jews.
1530
02:18:50,530 --> 02:18:52,990 -->
- SS men and Jews? - And Jews.
1531
02:18:53,116 --> 02:18:56,035 -->
- But Jews too? - Jews too!
1532
02:18:57,996 --> 02:19:02,249 -->
What did the Germans do?
1533
02:19:02,375 --> 02:19:05,586 -->
They forced the Jews to...
1534
02:19:05,712 --> 02:19:07,921 -->
They beat them?
1535
02:19:08,048 --> 02:19:13,469 -->
Or they themselves helped with the clean-up.
1536
02:19:13,595 --> 02:19:16,597 -->
Which Germans did that?
1537
02:19:18,099 --> 02:19:24,271 -->
Some of our guards who were assigned up there.
1538
02:19:26,941 --> 02:19:31,653 -->
- The Germans themselves? - They had to.
1539
02:19:32,113 --> 02:19:33,530 -->
They were in command.
1540
02:19:33,656 --> 02:19:39,078 -->
They were in command, but they were also commanded.
1541
02:19:39,204 --> 02:19:42,081 -->
(Lanzmann) I think the Jews did it.
1542
02:19:43,917 --> 02:19:49,838 -->
In that case, the Germans had to lend a hand.
1543
02:19:51,674 --> 02:19:55,719 -->
THE BLACK EXECUTION WALL IN THE COURTYARD OF BLOCK II
1544
02:19:57,847 --> 02:20:01,975 -->
AT AUSCHWITZ I, THE ORIGINAL CAMP
1545
02:20:04,562 --> 02:20:08,524 -->
(Lanzmann in German) Filip, on that Sunday in May 71942,
1546
02:20:08,650 --> 02:20:15,239 -->
when you first entered the Auschwitz crematorium,
1547
02:20:15,365 --> 02:20:17,366 -->
how old were you?
1548
02:20:18,243 --> 02:20:20,035 -->
(Filip) Twenty.
1549
02:20:27,544 --> 02:20:30,546 -->
It was a Sunday in May.
1550
02:20:38,221 --> 02:20:43,600 -->
We were locked in an underground cell in Block 11.
1551
02:20:45,145 --> 02:20:47,896 -->
We were held in secret.
1552
02:20:52,193 --> 02:20:55,904 -->
Then some SS men appeared
1553
02:20:57,740 --> 02:21:02,578 -->
and marched us along a street in the camp.
1554
02:21:12,881 --> 02:21:16,967 -->
We went through a gate,
1555
02:21:23,433 --> 02:21:26,185 -->
and around 300 feet away,
1556
02:21:27,145 --> 02:21:29,646 -->
300 feet from the gate,
1557
02:21:30,231 --> 02:21:33,859 -->
I suddenly saw a building.
1558
02:21:33,985 --> 02:21:39,698 -->
It had a flat roof, and a smokestack.
1559
02:21:48,625 --> 02:21:51,710 -->
I saw a door in the rear.
1560
02:21:55,548 --> 02:22:01,220 -->
I thought they were taking us to be shot.
1561
02:22:03,515 --> 02:22:06,600 -->
FILIP MULLER - CZECH JEW
1562
02:22:06,726 --> 02:22:11,605 -->
SURVIVOR OF FIVE LIQUIDATIONS OF AUSCHWITZ "SPECIAL DETAIL"
1563
02:22:14,400 --> 02:22:18,278 -->
Suddenly, before a door,
1564
02:22:19,447 --> 02:22:25,077 -->
under a lamp in the middle of this building,
1565
02:22:25,203 --> 02:22:30,332 -->
a young SS man told us,
1566
02:22:30,458 --> 02:22:33,544 -->
"Inside, filthy swine!"
1567
02:22:33,670 --> 02:22:37,339 -->
We entered a corridor.
1568
02:22:38,633 --> 02:22:41,510 -->
They drove us along it.
1569
02:22:53,189 --> 02:22:59,194 -->
Right away, the stench, the smoke choked me.
1570
02:23:08,830 --> 02:23:11,582 -->
They kept on chasing us,
1571
02:23:12,875 --> 02:23:17,254 -->
and then I made out the shapes
1572
02:23:18,256 --> 02:23:21,758 -->
of the first two ovens.
1573
02:23:26,889 --> 02:23:31,476 -->
Between the ovens, some Jewish prisoners were working.
1574
02:23:37,233 --> 02:23:42,321 -->
We were in the crematorium's incineration chamber
1575
02:23:42,780 --> 02:23:45,616 -->
in Camp I at Auschwitz.
1576
02:23:52,123 --> 02:23:53,665 -->
From there,
1577
02:23:54,167 --> 02:24:00,255 -->
they herded us to another big room,
1578
02:24:04,510 --> 02:24:09,806 -->
and told us to undress the corpses.
1579
02:24:12,518 --> 02:24:14,978 -->
I looked around me.
1580
02:24:18,107 --> 02:24:21,693 -->
There were hundreds of bodies,
1581
02:24:23,112 --> 02:24:25,489 -->
all dressed.
1582
02:24:27,158 --> 02:24:29,910 -->
Piled with the corpses
1583
02:24:31,204 --> 02:24:34,289 -->
were suitcases, bundles
1584
02:24:34,999 --> 02:24:37,084 -->
and, scattered everywhere,
1585
02:24:37,669 --> 02:24:41,755 -->
strange, bluish-purple crystals.
1586
02:24:41,881 --> 02:24:45,133 -->
I couldn't understand any of it.
1587
02:24:52,433 --> 02:24:58,480 -->
It was like a blow to the head, as if you'd been stunned.
1588
02:24:58,606 --> 02:25:01,817 -->
I didn't even know where I was.
1589
02:25:01,943 --> 02:25:04,569 -->
Above all, I couldn't understand
1590
02:25:04,696 --> 02:25:08,949 -->
how they managed to kill so many people at once.
1591
02:25:11,494 --> 02:25:14,913 -->
When we undressed some of them,
1592
02:25:15,039 --> 02:25:18,959 -->
the order was given to feed the ovens.
1593
02:25:23,464 --> 02:25:28,093 -->
Suddenly, an SS man rushed up and told me,
1594
02:25:28,219 --> 02:25:31,847 -->
"Get out of here! Go and stir the bodies!"
1595
02:25:31,973 --> 02:25:36,435 -->
What did he mean, "Stir the bodies"?
1596
02:25:36,978 --> 02:25:41,523 -->
I entered the cremation chamber.
1597
02:25:41,649 --> 02:25:46,236 -->
There was a Jewish prisoner,
1598
02:25:46,362 --> 02:25:50,449 -->
Fischel, who later became a squad leader.
1599
02:25:50,950 --> 02:25:52,701 -->
He looked at me,
1600
02:25:53,369 --> 02:25:59,916 -->
and I watched him poke the fire with a long rod.
1601
02:26:00,501 --> 02:26:04,212 -->
He told me, "Do as I'm doing
1602
02:26:04,338 --> 02:26:07,507 -->
"or the SS will kill you."
1603
02:26:08,134 --> 02:26:11,678 -->
I picked up a poker
1604
02:26:11,804 --> 02:26:14,473 -->
and did as he was doing.
1605
02:26:14,599 --> 02:26:16,892 -->
(Lanzmann) A poker?
1606
02:26:17,018 --> 02:26:18,977 -->
A steel poker.
1607
02:26:20,062 --> 02:26:23,440 -->
I obeyed Fischel's order.
1608
02:26:23,566 --> 02:26:28,612 -->
At that point, I was in shock as if I'd been hypnotised,
1609
02:26:29,363 --> 02:26:35,118 -->
and ready to do
1610
02:26:35,244 --> 02:26:37,704 -->
whatever I was told.
1611
02:26:37,830 --> 02:26:44,544 -->
I was so mindless, so horrified,
1612
02:26:44,670 --> 02:26:52,670 -->
that I did everything Fischel told me.
1613
02:26:53,304 --> 02:26:56,306 -->
So the ovens were fed,
1614
02:26:57,058 --> 02:27:00,852 -->
but we were so inexperienced
1615
02:27:01,896 --> 02:27:09,896 -->
that we left the fans on too long.
1616
02:27:10,613 --> 02:27:13,615 -->
- The fans? - Yes.
1617
02:27:13,741 --> 02:27:18,036 -->
There were fans to make the fire hotter.
1618
02:27:18,496 --> 02:27:22,415 -->
They worked too long...
1619
02:27:22,542 --> 02:27:27,838 -->
The firebrick suddenly exploded,
1620
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:34,010 -->
blocking the pipes
1621
02:27:34,136 --> 02:27:37,556 -->
linking the Auschwitz crematorium
1622
02:27:38,349 --> 02:27:41,643 -->
with the smokestack.
1623
02:27:43,563 --> 02:27:47,774 -->
Cremation was interrupted.
1624
02:27:48,401 --> 02:27:52,070 -->
The ovens were out of action.
1625
02:27:54,657 --> 02:27:59,411 -->
That evening, some trucks came,
1626
02:27:59,537 --> 02:28:01,788 -->
and we had to load the rest,
1627
02:28:01,914 --> 02:28:05,000 -->
some 300 bodies,
1628
02:28:05,126 --> 02:28:08,003 -->
into the trucks.
1629
02:28:08,129 --> 02:28:13,133 -->
Then we were taken...
1630
02:28:15,136 --> 02:28:18,179 -->
I still don't know where,
1631
02:28:18,306 --> 02:28:23,268 -->
but probably to a field at Birkenau.
1632
02:28:27,565 --> 02:28:34,195 -->
We were ordered to unload the bodies
1633
02:28:34,322 --> 02:28:40,702 -->
and put them in a pit.
1634
02:28:41,287 --> 02:28:45,248 -->
There was a ditch, an artificial pit.
1635
02:28:45,374 --> 02:28:48,877 -->
Suddenly, water gushed up from underground
1636
02:28:49,003 --> 02:28:52,213 -->
and swept the bodies down.
1637
02:28:57,678 --> 02:29:02,599 -->
When night came, we had to stop that horrible work.
1638
02:29:03,559 --> 02:29:06,019 -->
We were loaded into the trucks
1639
02:29:06,145 --> 02:29:10,565 -->
and returned to Auschwitz.
1640
02:29:15,196 --> 02:29:17,030 -->
The next day,
1641
02:29:17,156 --> 02:29:23,787 -->
we were taken to the same place.
1642
02:29:31,379 --> 02:29:34,381 -->
But the water had risen.
1643
02:29:36,050 --> 02:29:39,886 -->
Some SS men came with a fire truck
1644
02:29:40,012 --> 02:29:43,515 -->
and pumped out the water.
1645
02:29:44,767 --> 02:29:48,770 -->
We had to go down into that muddy pit
1646
02:29:48,896 --> 02:29:52,607 -->
to stack up the bodies.
1647
02:29:55,903 --> 02:29:57,612 -->
But they were slimy.
1648
02:29:57,738 --> 02:30:02,117 -->
For example, I grasped a woman,
1649
02:30:02,243 --> 02:30:04,536 -->
but her hands...
1650
02:30:04,662 --> 02:30:06,955 -->
Her hand was slippery, slimy.
1651
02:30:07,081 --> 02:30:09,666 -->
I tried to pull her,
1652
02:30:09,792 --> 02:30:16,464 -->
but I fell over backward, into the water, the mud.
1653
02:30:18,050 --> 02:30:20,510 -->
It was the same for all of us.
1654
02:30:20,636 --> 02:30:26,683 -->
Up above, at the edge of the pit, Aumeyer and Grabner yelled,
1655
02:30:26,809 --> 02:30:30,770 -->
"Get cracking, you filth, you bastards!
1656
02:30:30,896 --> 02:30:35,525 -->
"We'll show you, you bunch of shits!"
1657
02:30:35,651 --> 02:30:39,029 -->
These were the names they were calling us.
1658
02:30:39,155 --> 02:30:41,156 -->
And in these...
1659
02:30:46,620 --> 02:30:49,205 -->
How shall I say? ...circumstances,
1660
02:30:50,624 --> 02:30:55,503 -->
two of my friends couldn't take any more.
1661
02:30:55,629 --> 02:30:58,381 -->
One was a French student.
1662
02:30:59,508 --> 02:31:03,678 -->
- Jews? - All Jews. They were exhausted.
1663
02:31:06,724 --> 02:31:12,729 -->
They just lay there...
1664
02:31:13,564 --> 02:31:16,608 -->
in the mud.
1665
02:31:16,734 --> 02:31:20,612 -->
Aumeyer called one of his SS men.
1666
02:31:20,738 --> 02:31:24,074 -->
"Go on, finish off those swine!"
1667
02:31:27,536 --> 02:31:32,123 -->
They were exhausted. And they were shot in the pit.
1668
02:31:38,089 --> 02:31:43,468 -->
(Lanzmann) There was no crematorium at Birkenau then?
1669
02:31:44,178 --> 02:31:48,640 -->
(Muller) No, there weren't any there yet.
1670
02:31:50,309 --> 02:31:53,311 -->
Birkenau still wasn't completely set up.
1671
02:31:53,813 --> 02:31:59,234 -->
Only Camp B 1, which was the late women is camp, existed.
1672
02:32:05,616 --> 02:32:09,369 -->
It wasn't until the spring of 1943
1673
02:32:09,495 --> 02:32:14,999 -->
that skilled workmen and unskilled labourers, all Jews,
1674
02:32:15,126 --> 02:32:17,669 -->
must have gone to work here
1675
02:32:17,795 --> 02:32:21,005 -->
and built the four crematoria.
1676
02:32:24,385 --> 02:32:27,595 -->
Each crematorium had 15 ovens,
1677
02:32:28,722 --> 02:32:33,560 -->
a big undressing room, around 3,000 square feet,
1678
02:32:34,395 --> 02:32:36,604 -->
and a big gas chamber
1679
02:32:36,730 --> 02:32:41,359 -->
where up to 3,000 people at once could be gassed.
1680
02:32:44,071 --> 02:32:45,488 -->
TREBLINKA
1681
02:32:45,614 --> 02:32:50,910 -->
(Suchomel) The new gas chambers were built in September 1942.
1682
02:32:51,412 --> 02:32:53,746 -->
(Lanzmann) Who built them?
1683
02:32:54,248 --> 02:33:02,172 -->
Hackenhold and Lambert supervised the Jews who did the work,
1684
02:33:02,298 --> 02:33:04,841 -->
the bricklaying, at least.
1685
02:33:06,302 --> 02:33:12,599 -->
Ukrainian carpenters made the doors.
1686
02:33:14,435 --> 02:33:18,104 -->
The gas chamber doors themselves
1687
02:33:18,230 --> 02:33:22,317 -->
were armoured bunker doors.
1688
02:33:22,443 --> 02:33:26,321 -->
I think they were brought from Bialystok,
1689
02:33:26,447 --> 02:33:29,032 -->
from some Russian bunkers.
1690
02:33:30,910 --> 02:33:32,952 -->
FRANZ SUCHOMEL
1691
02:33:33,078 --> 02:33:37,207 -->
What was the capacity of the new gas chambers?
1692
02:33:37,333 --> 02:33:39,918 -->
- There were two of them, right? - Yes.
1693
02:33:40,044 --> 02:33:46,216 -->
But the old ones hadn't been demolished.
1694
02:33:47,718 --> 02:33:52,013 -->
When there were a lot of trains, a lot of people,
1695
02:33:52,139 --> 02:33:55,683 -->
the old ovens were put back into service.
1696
02:33:57,311 --> 02:34:02,815 -->
And here... the Jews say there were five on each side.
1697
02:34:02,942 --> 02:34:05,276 -->
I say there were four,
1698
02:34:05,402 --> 02:34:07,612 -->
but I'm not sure.
1699
02:34:07,738 --> 02:34:11,241 -->
In any case, only the upper row,
1700
02:34:12,952 --> 02:34:14,869 -->
on this side,
1701
02:34:15,746 --> 02:34:18,665 -->
was in action.
1702
02:34:18,791 --> 02:34:21,125 -->
(Lanzmann) Why not the other side?
1703
02:34:21,252 --> 02:34:27,966 -->
(Suchomel) Disposing of the bodies would have been too complicated.
1704
02:34:28,676 --> 02:34:30,134 -->
- Too far? - Yes.
1705
02:34:30,261 --> 02:34:35,848 -->
Up there, Wirth had built the death camp,
1706
02:34:36,767 --> 02:34:43,189 -->
assigning a detail of Jewish workers to it.
1707
02:34:43,983 --> 02:34:47,568 -->
The detail had a fixed number in it,
1708
02:34:47,695 --> 02:34:50,863 -->
around 200 people.
1709
02:34:51,865 --> 02:34:53,908 -->
(Lanzmann speaks German)
1710
02:34:54,034 --> 02:34:58,079 -->
(Suchomel) ...who worked only in the death camp.
1711
02:34:58,205 --> 02:35:03,084 -->
(Lanzmann) But what was the capacity of the new gas chambers?
1712
02:35:03,210 --> 02:35:07,547 -->
The new gas chambers... Let's see...
1713
02:35:08,382 --> 02:35:13,052 -->
They could finish off 3,000 people in two hours.
1714
02:35:15,806 --> 02:35:20,977 -->
(Lanzmann) How many people at once in a single gas chamber?
1715
02:35:21,103 --> 02:35:24,230 -->
I can't say exactly.
1716
02:35:24,356 --> 02:35:26,733 -->
The Jews say 200.
1717
02:35:27,276 --> 02:35:30,153 -->
- 200? - That's right, 200.
1718
02:35:31,405 --> 02:35:37,118 -->
Imagine a room this size.
1719
02:35:37,244 --> 02:35:39,495 -->
(Lanzmann) They put more in at Auschwitz.
1720
02:35:39,621 --> 02:35:42,123 -->
Auschwitz was a factory!
1721
02:35:44,084 --> 02:35:46,669 -->
(Lanzmann) And Treblinka?
1722
02:35:46,795 --> 02:35:49,797 -->
I'll give you my definition.
1723
02:35:50,632 --> 02:35:52,300 -->
Keep this in mind.
1724
02:35:52,426 --> 02:35:58,014 -->
Treblinka was a primitive,
1725
02:35:58,682 --> 02:36:05,146 -->
but efficient production line of death.
1726
02:36:05,272 --> 02:36:08,066 -->
- A production line? - Of death.
1727
02:36:09,026 --> 02:36:11,194 -->
- Understand? - Yes.
1728
02:36:15,532 --> 02:36:19,744 -->
- But primitive...? - Primitive, yes.
1729
02:36:20,871 --> 02:36:25,917 -->
But it worked well, that production line of death.
1730
02:36:26,043 --> 02:36:29,212 -->
Was Belzec even more rudimentary?
1731
02:36:29,338 --> 02:36:32,715 -->
Belzec was the laboratory.
1732
02:36:32,841 --> 02:36:37,261 -->
Wirth was camp commandant.
1733
02:36:38,597 --> 02:36:43,267 -->
He tried everything imaginable there.
1734
02:36:44,269 --> 02:36:47,772 -->
He got off on the wrong foot.
1735
02:36:47,898 --> 02:36:49,857 -->
The pits were overflowing,
1736
02:36:49,983 --> 02:36:55,696 -->
and the cesspool seeped out in front of the SS mess hall.
1737
02:36:55,823 --> 02:36:57,490 -->
It stank...
1738
02:36:58,492 --> 02:37:01,911 -->
in front of the mess-hall, in front of their barracks.
1739
02:37:02,037 --> 02:37:04,872 -->
- Were you at Belzec? - No.
1740
02:37:05,499 --> 02:37:08,543 -->
Wirth with his own men.
1741
02:37:09,169 --> 02:37:12,130 -->
With Franz, with Oberhauser
1742
02:37:12,714 --> 02:37:14,424 -->
and Hackenhold,
1743
02:37:14,550 --> 02:37:16,551 -->
he tried everything there.
1744
02:37:17,553 --> 02:37:23,850 -->
Those three had to put the bodies in the pits themselves
1745
02:37:24,893 --> 02:37:30,773 -->
so that Wirth could see how much space he needed.
1746
02:37:31,775 --> 02:37:35,236 -->
And when they rebelled...
1747
02:37:35,362 --> 02:37:36,529 -->
Franz refused.
1748
02:37:36,655 --> 02:37:39,615 -->
Wirth beat Franz with a whip.
1749
02:37:39,741 --> 02:37:42,452 -->
He whipped Hackenhold, too. You see?
1750
02:37:42,578 --> 02:37:44,412 -->
- Kurt Franz? - Kurt Franz.
1751
02:37:46,707 --> 02:37:48,374 -->
That's how Wirth was.
1752
02:37:48,500 --> 02:37:52,128 -->
Then, with that experience behind him,
1753
02:37:53,547 --> 02:37:55,089 -->
he came to Treblinka.
1754
02:37:55,924 --> 02:37:57,925 -->
(People chatting in German)
1755
02:38:24,745 --> 02:38:26,746 -->
(Glasses clinking)
1756
02:39:29,935 --> 02:39:32,186 -->
(Woman speaks German)
1757
02:39:34,982 --> 02:39:42,029 -->
(Lanzmann) Excuse me. How many quarts of beer a day do you sell?
1758
02:39:44,825 --> 02:39:47,076 -->
You can't tell me?
1759
02:39:49,204 --> 02:39:53,082 -->
(Man) I'd rather not. I have my reasons.
1760
02:39:53,208 --> 02:39:55,418 -->
- But why not? - Yes.
1761
02:39:55,544 --> 02:39:57,670 -->
(Man) Two Pilsners.
1762
02:39:58,130 --> 02:39:59,547 -->
Yes.
1763
02:40:01,842 --> 02:40:08,139 -->
(Lanzmann) How many quarts of beer a day do you sell?
1764
02:40:10,225 --> 02:40:12,810 -->
- Go on, tell him. - Tell him what?
1765
02:40:12,936 --> 02:40:16,230 -->
Just tell him approximately.
1766
02:40:16,356 --> 02:40:19,775 -->
How many quarts of beer a day do you sell?
1767
02:40:19,901 --> 02:40:20,985 -->
400, 500 quarts.
1768
02:40:21,111 --> 02:40:23,738 -->
- What? - 400, 500 quarts.
1769
02:40:24,615 --> 02:40:25,656 -->
Here.
1770
02:40:25,782 --> 02:40:27,783 -->
That's a lot.
1771
02:40:27,909 --> 02:40:30,286 -->
(Indistinct German)
1772
02:40:34,291 --> 02:40:37,168 -->
Have you worked here long?
1773
02:40:38,629 --> 02:40:42,298 -->
- Around 20 years. - 20 years?
1774
02:40:42,424 --> 02:40:43,424 -->
Yes.
1775
02:40:43,467 --> 02:40:46,636 -->
- Why are you hiding...? - I have my reasons.
1776
02:40:46,762 --> 02:40:50,181 -->
- ...your face? - I have my reasons.
1777
02:40:50,307 --> 02:40:52,224 -->
What reasons?
1778
02:40:54,227 --> 02:40:57,396 -->
- Never mind. - Why not?
1779
02:41:10,702 --> 02:41:12,870 -->
(Lanzmann) Do you recognise this man?
1780
02:41:15,415 --> 02:41:16,916 -->
No?
1781
02:41:17,042 --> 02:41:18,793 -->
Christian Wirth?
1782
02:41:18,919 --> 02:41:20,711 -->
Mr. Oberhauser.
1783
02:41:21,213 --> 02:41:23,130 -->
Do you remember Belzec?
1784
02:41:24,424 --> 02:41:27,051 -->
No memories of Belzec?
1785
02:41:27,886 --> 02:41:33,015 -->
No?
1786
02:41:37,104 --> 02:41:42,024 -->
Of the overflowing graves?
1787
02:41:53,078 --> 02:41:55,037 -->
You don't remember?
1788
02:42:01,211 --> 02:42:04,255 -->
MUNICH
1789
02:42:15,100 --> 02:42:17,643 -->
WUPPERTAL ANTON SPIESS
1790
02:42:17,769 --> 02:42:22,022 -->
GERMAN STATE PROSECUTOR AT TREBLINKA TRIAL, FRANKFURT 1960
1791
02:42:27,612 --> 02:42:32,783 -->
(Spiess in German) When the Action it selffirst got under way,
1792
02:42:32,909 --> 02:42:35,953 -->
it was almost totally improvised.
1793
02:42:39,124 --> 02:42:43,627 -->
At Treblinka, for example,
1794
02:42:43,754 --> 02:42:48,799 -->
the commandant, Dr. Eberl, let more trains come in
1795
02:42:48,925 --> 02:42:53,512 -->
than the camp could handle.
1796
02:42:54,139 --> 02:42:56,182 -->
It was a disaster!
1797
02:42:56,308 --> 02:42:58,434 -->
Mountains of corpses!
1798
02:42:59,019 --> 02:43:03,898 -->
Word of this foul-up
1799
02:43:04,024 --> 02:43:08,068 -->
reached the head of the Reinhard Action,
1800
02:43:08,195 --> 02:43:11,697 -->
Odilo Globocznik, in Lublin.
1801
02:43:11,823 --> 02:43:14,575 -->
He went to Treblinka
1802
02:43:14,701 --> 02:43:19,538 -->
to see what was happening.
1803
02:43:19,664 --> 02:43:23,709 -->
There's a very concrete account of the trip
1804
02:43:23,835 --> 02:43:27,755 -->
by his former driver, Oberhauser.
1805
02:43:27,881 --> 02:43:31,008 -->
Globocznik arrived on a hot day in August.
1806
02:43:31,134 --> 02:43:36,180 -->
The camp was permeated
1807
02:43:37,182 --> 02:43:40,935 -->
with the stench of rotting flesh.
1808
02:43:41,061 --> 02:43:47,858 -->
Globocznik didn't even bother to enter the camp.
1809
02:43:47,984 --> 02:43:50,820 -->
He stopped here, before the commandant's office,
1810
02:43:50,946 --> 02:43:52,988 -->
sent for Dr. Eberl
1811
02:43:53,114 --> 02:43:57,284 -->
and greeted him with these words,
1812
02:43:57,410 --> 02:44:01,705 -->
"How dare you accept so many every day
1813
02:44:01,832 --> 02:44:04,792 -->
"when you can only process 3,000?"
1814
02:44:12,884 --> 02:44:15,678 -->
Operations were suspended,
1815
02:44:16,304 --> 02:44:19,807 -->
Eberl was transferred and Wirth came,
1816
02:44:21,101 --> 02:44:23,853 -->
followed immediately by Stangl,
1817
02:44:25,146 --> 02:44:29,316 -->
and the camp was completely reorganised.
1818
02:44:39,035 --> 02:44:43,122 -->
The Reinhard Action covered three extermination camps:
1819
02:44:43,248 --> 02:44:47,042 -->
Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.
1820
02:44:47,168 --> 02:44:51,964 -->
There's also talk of three death camps on the Bug River,
1821
02:44:52,090 --> 02:44:56,302 -->
for they were all located on or near the Bug.
1822
02:45:00,640 --> 02:45:04,518 -->
The gas chambers were the heart of the camp.
1823
02:45:06,479 --> 02:45:09,231 -->
They were built first,
1824
02:45:09,357 --> 02:45:13,027 -->
in the woods, or in a field, as at Treblinka.
1825
02:45:13,695 --> 02:45:18,699 -->
The gas chambers were the only stone buildings.
1826
02:45:19,492 --> 02:45:23,037 -->
All the others were wooden sheds.
1827
02:45:23,538 --> 02:45:27,041 -->
These camps weren't built to last.
1828
02:45:28,376 --> 02:45:33,088 -->
Himmler was in a hurry to begin the 'final solution'.
1829
02:45:33,214 --> 02:45:37,468 -->
The Germans had to capitalise on their eastward advance
1830
02:45:37,594 --> 02:45:39,803 -->
and use this remote back-country
1831
02:45:39,930 --> 02:45:47,311 -->
to carry out their mass murder as secretly as possible.
1832
02:45:52,233 --> 02:45:54,777 -->
So at first, they couldn't manage the perfection
1833
02:45:54,903 --> 02:45:57,988 -->
they achieved three months later.
1834
02:46:09,125 --> 02:46:11,126 -->
(Piwonski speaks Polish)
1835
02:46:15,006 --> 02:46:17,341 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in French) Near the end of March 1942...
1836
02:46:17,467 --> 02:46:20,344 -->
(Piwonski continues)
1837
02:46:24,057 --> 02:46:28,102 -->
...sizeable groups of Jews were herded here,
1838
02:46:28,228 --> 02:46:30,354 -->
groups of 50 to 100 people.
1839
02:46:31,773 --> 02:46:33,607 -->
(Piwonski continues)
1840
02:46:35,819 --> 02:46:37,903 -->
Several trains arrived...
1841
02:46:45,161 --> 02:46:49,123 -->
...with sections of barracks, with posts, barbed wire, bricks...
1842
02:46:56,548 --> 02:47:00,426 -->
...and construction of the camp as such began.
1843
02:47:02,012 --> 02:47:04,346 -->
(Train whistle blows)
1844
02:47:06,933 --> 02:47:09,935 -->
(Piwonski continues in Polish)
1845
02:47:12,147 --> 02:47:14,857 -->
(Interpreter) The Jews unloaded these cars...
1846
02:47:19,279 --> 02:47:22,614 -->
...and carted the sections of barracks to the camp.
1847
02:47:31,791 --> 02:47:35,544 -->
The Germans made them work extremely fast.
1848
02:47:46,806 --> 02:47:49,892 -->
When we saw the pace they worked at...
1849
02:47:58,693 --> 02:48:00,903 -->
It was extremely brutal.
1850
02:48:09,579 --> 02:48:13,916 -->
When we saw the complex being built, and the fence,
1851
02:48:14,042 --> 02:48:17,294 -->
which, after all, enclosed a vast space...
1852
02:48:17,420 --> 02:48:19,421 -->
(Piwonski continues)
1853
02:48:25,178 --> 02:48:29,181 -->
...we realised that what the Germans were building
1854
02:48:29,307 --> 02:48:31,600 -->
wasn't meant to aid mankind.
1855
02:48:34,813 --> 02:48:36,355 -->
(Birds chirping)
1856
02:48:36,481 --> 02:48:38,482 -->
(Piwonski continues)
1857
02:48:42,278 --> 02:48:44,655 -->
(Interpreter) Early in June...
1858
02:48:51,621 --> 02:48:53,539 -->
...the first convoy arrived.
1859
02:48:57,377 --> 02:48:59,586 -->
I'd say there were over 40 cars.
1860
02:49:05,927 --> 02:49:09,471 -->
With the convoy were SS men in black uniforms.
1861
02:49:14,185 --> 02:49:17,938 -->
It happened one afternoon. He had just finished work.
1862
02:49:18,064 --> 02:49:20,149 -->
JAN PIWONSKI
1863
02:49:22,735 --> 02:49:26,029 -->
But he got on his bicycle and went home.
1864
02:49:27,115 --> 02:49:28,740 -->
(Lanzmann) Why?
1865
02:49:40,587 --> 02:49:42,838 -->
I merely thought
1866
02:49:42,964 --> 02:49:46,967 -->
that these people had come to build the camp,
1867
02:49:47,093 --> 02:49:49,761 -->
as the others had before them.
1868
02:49:51,472 --> 02:49:53,098 -->
That convoy...
1869
02:49:54,642 --> 02:49:58,103 -->
...there was no way of knowing that it was...
1870
02:50:02,108 --> 02:50:04,276 -->
...the first earmarked for extermination.
1871
02:50:05,695 --> 02:50:11,158 -->
And besides... he couldn't have known that Sobibor...
1872
02:50:11,284 --> 02:50:13,160 -->
(Piwonski continues)
1873
02:50:13,286 --> 02:50:17,956 -->
...would be a place for the mass extermination of the Jews.
1874
02:50:28,218 --> 02:50:32,846 -->
The next morning, when I came here to work,
1875
02:50:32,972 --> 02:50:37,017 -->
the station was absolutely silent.
1876
02:51:01,668 --> 02:51:06,046 -->
And we realised,
1877
02:51:06,172 --> 02:51:11,927 -->
after talking with the Poles who worked at the station here...
1878
02:51:13,638 --> 02:51:18,350 -->
...that something utterly incomprehensible had happened.
1879
02:51:24,482 --> 02:51:27,317 -->
First of all, when the camp was being built...
1880
02:51:33,491 --> 02:51:35,742 -->
...there were orders shouted in German...
1881
02:51:36,202 --> 02:51:37,911 -->
...there were screams...
1882
02:51:39,122 --> 02:51:42,874 -->
...Jews were working at the run, there were shots,
1883
02:51:43,710 --> 02:51:46,837 -->
and here there was that silence...
1884
02:51:52,176 --> 02:51:54,219 -->
No work crews...
1885
02:51:57,724 --> 02:51:59,891 -->
...a really total silence.
1886
02:52:08,109 --> 02:52:11,987 -->
40 cars had arrived, and then... nothing.
1887
02:52:12,113 --> 02:52:14,906 -->
It was all very strange.
1888
02:52:15,742 --> 02:52:18,285 -->
(Lanzmann) It was the silence that tipped them off?
1889
02:52:18,411 --> 02:52:19,870 -->
(Interpreter) That's right.
1890
02:52:19,996 --> 02:52:22,664 -->
Can he describe that silence?
1891
02:52:22,790 --> 02:52:24,458 -->
(Piwonski speaks Polish)
1892
02:52:24,584 --> 02:52:27,419 -->
It was a silence.
1893
02:52:27,545 --> 02:52:31,631 -->
Nothing was going on in the camp. You heard nothing.
1894
02:52:31,758 --> 02:52:33,592 -->
Nothing moved.
1895
02:52:34,218 --> 02:52:36,219 -->
(Piwonski continues)
1896
02:52:40,475 --> 02:52:43,393 -->
So then they began to wonder...
1897
02:52:46,898 --> 02:52:50,192 -->
"Where have they put those Jews?"
1898
02:52:54,906 --> 02:52:59,785 -->
(Muller in German) Cell 13, Block 11 at Auschwitz 1,
1899
02:52:59,911 --> 02:53:03,330 -->
is where the Special Work Detail was held.
1900
02:53:05,416 --> 02:53:09,002 -->
The cell was underground, isolated.
1901
02:53:09,962 --> 02:53:13,382 -->
For we were...
1902
02:53:14,926 --> 02:53:16,968 -->
..."bearers of secrets".
1903
02:53:18,513 --> 02:53:20,889 -->
We were reprieved dead men.
1904
02:53:22,892 --> 02:53:26,103 -->
We weren't allowed to talk to anyone,
1905
02:53:26,229 --> 02:53:29,022 -->
or contact any prisoner,
1906
02:53:29,565 --> 02:53:32,609 -->
even the SS.
1907
02:53:32,735 --> 02:53:36,947 -->
Only those in charge of the "Action."
1908
02:53:40,952 --> 02:53:43,078 -->
There was a window.
1909
02:53:43,913 --> 02:53:47,541 -->
We heard what happened in the courtyard.
1910
02:53:49,252 --> 02:53:51,503 -->
The executions,
1911
02:53:52,547 --> 02:53:55,799 -->
the victims' cries, the screams,
1912
02:53:56,509 --> 02:53:58,718 -->
but we couldn't see anything.
1913
02:54:04,350 --> 02:54:06,935 -->
This went on for several days.
1914
02:54:08,312 --> 02:54:12,399 -->
One night an SS man came
1915
02:54:13,317 --> 02:54:15,527 -->
from the political section.
1916
02:54:17,321 --> 02:54:23,034 -->
It was around 4:00am.
1917
02:54:27,248 --> 02:54:32,544 -->
The whole camp was still asleep.
1918
02:54:35,089 --> 02:54:37,966 -->
There wasn't a sound in the camp.
1919
02:54:46,476 --> 02:54:51,730 -->
We were again taken out of our cell
1920
02:54:53,774 --> 02:54:56,651 -->
and led to the crematorium.
1921
02:55:02,033 --> 02:55:05,869 -->
There, for the first time, I saw the procedure used
1922
02:55:05,995 --> 02:55:10,123 -->
with those who came in alive.
1923
02:55:11,250 --> 02:55:13,376 -->
We were lined up against a wall
1924
02:55:13,503 --> 02:55:17,380 -->
and told, "No one may talk to those people."
1925
02:55:21,344 --> 02:55:26,431 -->
Suddenly, the wooden door to the crematorium courtyard opened,
1926
02:55:26,557 --> 02:55:32,312 -->
and 250 to 300 people filed in,
1927
02:55:32,438 --> 02:55:35,732 -->
old people, and women.
1928
02:55:38,069 --> 02:55:41,863 -->
They carried bundles, wore the Star of David.
1929
02:55:43,866 --> 02:55:46,535 -->
Even from a distance, I could tell
1930
02:55:46,661 --> 02:55:50,205 -->
that they were Polish Jews,
1931
02:55:51,791 --> 02:55:55,460 -->
probably from Upper Silesia,
1932
02:55:55,586 --> 02:56:00,590 -->
from the Sosnowiec ghetto, some 20 miles from Auschwitz.
1933
02:56:03,010 --> 02:56:04,386 -->
FILIP MULLER
1934
02:56:04,512 --> 02:56:09,516 -->
I caught some of the things they said.
1935
02:56:10,643 --> 02:56:12,435 -->
I heard "fachowitz,"
1936
02:56:12,562 --> 02:56:15,272 -->
meaning "skilled worker."
1937
02:56:15,398 --> 02:56:18,316 -->
And "Malach-ha-Mavis,"
1938
02:56:19,068 --> 02:56:22,112 -->
which means "the angel of death" in Yiddish.
1939
02:56:24,907 --> 02:56:28,201 -->
Also, "harginnen": "They're going to kill us."
1940
02:56:31,664 --> 02:56:35,709 -->
From what I could hear,
1941
02:56:35,835 --> 02:56:40,213 -->
I clearly understood the struggle going on inside them.
1942
02:56:40,339 --> 02:56:42,549 -->
Sometimes they spoke of work
1943
02:56:42,675 --> 02:56:47,220 -->
probably hoping that they'd be put to work.
1944
02:56:48,389 --> 02:56:52,726 -->
Or they spoke of "Malach-ha-Mavis," the angel of death.
1945
02:56:54,312 --> 02:56:58,565 -->
The conflicting words echoed the conflict in their feelings.
1946
02:56:59,317 --> 02:57:02,861 -->
Then a sudden silence
1947
02:57:03,404 --> 02:57:07,657 -->
fell over those gathered in the crematorium courtyard.
1948
02:57:10,286 --> 02:57:13,413 -->
All eyes converged
1949
02:57:14,165 --> 02:57:17,709 -->
on the flat roof of the crematorium.
1950
02:57:21,422 --> 02:57:23,465 -->
Who was standing there?
1951
02:57:23,591 --> 02:57:25,925 -->
Aumeyer of the SS,
1952
02:57:26,844 --> 02:57:29,679 -->
Grabner, the head of the political section,
1953
02:57:30,264 --> 02:57:32,974 -->
and Hossler, the SS officer.
1954
02:57:34,101 --> 02:57:37,479 -->
Aumeyer addressed the crowd,
1955
02:57:39,440 --> 02:57:43,026 -->
"You're here to work,
1956
02:57:43,152 --> 02:57:48,073 -->
"for our soldiers fighting at the front.
1957
02:57:50,326 --> 02:57:53,286 -->
"Those who can work will be all right."
1958
02:57:54,497 --> 02:58:02,045 -->
It was obvious that hope flared in those people.
1959
02:58:02,171 --> 02:58:06,174 -->
You could feel it clearly.
1960
02:58:07,426 --> 02:58:11,054 -->
The executioners had got past the first obstacle.
1961
02:58:12,056 --> 02:58:15,517 -->
They saw it was succeeding.
1962
02:58:17,144 --> 02:58:19,479 -->
Then Grabner spoke up,
1963
02:58:20,815 --> 02:58:25,485 -->
"We need masons, electricians,
1964
02:58:26,153 --> 02:58:28,363 -->
"all the trades."
1965
02:58:29,323 --> 02:58:33,660 -->
Next, Hossler took over.
1966
02:58:34,829 --> 02:58:39,457 -->
He pointed to a short man in the crowd.
1967
02:58:39,583 --> 02:58:41,626 -->
I can still see him.
1968
02:58:41,752 --> 02:58:43,545 -->
"What's your trade?"
1969
02:58:43,671 --> 02:58:48,508 -->
The man said, "Mr. Officer, I'm a tailor."
1970
02:58:49,301 --> 02:58:52,887 -->
"A tailor? What kind of tailor?"
1971
02:58:54,098 --> 02:58:58,351 -->
"A men's... No, for both men and women."
1972
02:58:58,477 --> 02:59:03,732 -->
"Wonderful! We need people like you in our workshops."
1973
02:59:05,901 --> 02:59:08,903 -->
Then he questioned a woman,
1974
02:59:09,655 --> 02:59:12,323 -->
"What's your trade?"
1975
02:59:12,950 --> 02:59:15,452 -->
"Nurse," she replied.
1976
02:59:15,578 --> 02:59:22,292 -->
"Splendid! We need nurses in our hospitals for our soldiers.
1977
02:59:22,418 --> 02:59:26,796 -->
"We need all of you! But first, undress.
1978
02:59:27,673 --> 02:59:30,675 -->
"You must be disinfected.
1979
02:59:30,801 --> 02:59:34,053 -->
"We want you healthy."
1980
02:59:36,557 --> 02:59:39,934 -->
I could see the people were calmer,
1981
02:59:40,561 --> 02:59:44,814 -->
reassured by what they'd heard,
1982
02:59:45,524 --> 02:59:48,651 -->
and they began to undress.
1983
02:59:50,529 --> 02:59:52,989 -->
Even if they still had their doubts,
1984
02:59:53,824 --> 02:59:56,826 -->
if you want to live, you must hope.
1985
03:00:02,458 --> 03:00:06,044 -->
Their clothing remained in the courtyard,
1986
03:00:06,879 --> 03:00:09,547 -->
scattered everywhere.
1987
03:00:10,758 --> 03:00:13,384 -->
Aumeyer was beaming,
1988
03:00:13,511 --> 03:00:17,430 -->
very proud of how he'd handled things.
1989
03:00:17,556 --> 03:00:22,060 -->
He turned to some of the SS men and told them,
1990
03:00:22,186 --> 03:00:25,355 -->
"You see? That's the way to do it!"
1991
03:00:26,816 --> 03:00:29,067 -->
By this device,
1992
03:00:29,193 --> 03:00:34,614 -->
a great leap forward had been made:
1993
03:00:35,866 --> 03:00:39,244 -->
Now the clothing could be used.
1994
03:00:43,165 --> 03:00:44,791 -->
RAUL HILBERG HISTORIAN
1995
03:00:44,917 --> 03:00:48,294 -->
In all of my work, I have never begun by asking the big questions,
1996
03:00:48,420 --> 03:00:51,881 -->
because I was always afraid that I would come up with small answers,
1997
03:00:52,007 --> 03:00:56,719 -->
and I have preferred, therefore, to address these things,
1998
03:00:56,846 --> 03:00:59,514 -->
which are minutiae or detail,
1999
03:00:59,640 --> 03:01:03,518 -->
in order that I might then be able to put together
2000
03:01:03,644 --> 03:01:05,353 -->
in a gestalt,
2001
03:01:05,479 --> 03:01:07,230 -->
a picture, which...
2002
03:01:08,482 --> 03:01:11,109 -->
...if not an explanation, is at least a description,
2003
03:01:11,235 --> 03:01:15,655 -->
a more full description, of what transpired.
2004
03:01:15,781 --> 03:01:21,578 -->
And, in that sense, I look also upon the bureaucratic destruction process,
2005
03:01:21,704 --> 03:01:23,538 -->
for this is what it was,
2006
03:01:23,664 --> 03:01:28,209 -->
as a series of minute steps taken in logical order
2007
03:01:28,335 --> 03:01:31,546 -->
and relying above all, as much as possible,
2008
03:01:31,672 --> 03:01:35,133 -->
on experience, past experience.
2009
03:01:35,259 --> 03:01:39,429 -->
This goes not only, incidentally, for the administrative steps taken,
2010
03:01:39,555 --> 03:01:42,223 -->
but also the psychological arguments,
2011
03:01:42,349 --> 03:01:44,684 -->
even the propaganda.
2012
03:01:44,810 --> 03:01:49,230 -->
Amazingly little was newly invented
2013
03:01:49,356 --> 03:01:54,152 -->
until, of course, the moment came when one had to go beyond
2014
03:01:54,278 --> 03:01:56,654 -->
that which had already been established by precedent,
2015
03:01:56,780 --> 03:01:58,615 -->
and one had to gas these people,
2016
03:01:58,741 --> 03:02:02,160 -->
or, in some sense, annihilate them on a large scale.
2017
03:02:02,286 --> 03:02:05,914 -->
Then, these bureaucrats became inventors.
2018
03:02:06,749 --> 03:02:09,626 -->
But like all inventors of institutions,
2019
03:02:09,752 --> 03:02:12,629 -->
they did not copyright or patent their achievements,
2020
03:02:12,755 --> 03:02:15,673 -->
and they preferred obscurity.
2021
03:02:17,092 --> 03:02:20,345 -->
(Lanzmann) What did they get from the past, the Nazis?
2022
03:02:22,932 --> 03:02:27,602 -->
They got the actual content of measures which they took.
2023
03:02:27,728 --> 03:02:31,981 -->
For example, the barring of Jews from office,
2024
03:02:33,192 --> 03:02:36,819 -->
the prohibition of intermarriages,
2025
03:02:37,321 --> 03:02:43,326 -->
the employment in Jewish homes of female persons under the age of45,
2026
03:02:45,120 --> 03:02:49,999 -->
the various marking decrees, especially the Jewish star,
2027
03:02:51,418 --> 03:02:53,503 -->
the compulsory ghetto,
2028
03:02:55,381 --> 03:02:59,175 -->
the voidance of any will executed by a Jew
2029
03:02:59,301 --> 03:03:01,928 -->
that might work in such a way
2030
03:03:02,054 --> 03:03:07,517 -->
as to prevent inheritance of his property by someone who was a Christian.
2031
03:03:08,602 --> 03:03:13,231 -->
Many such measures had been worked out
2032
03:03:13,357 --> 03:03:16,985 -->
over the course of more than a thousand years
2033
03:03:18,362 --> 03:03:22,073 -->
by authorities of the Church
2034
03:03:22,199 --> 03:03:27,537 -->
and by secular governments that followed in those footsteps.
2035
03:03:28,455 --> 03:03:30,415 -->
And the experience gathered over that time
2036
03:03:30,541 --> 03:03:33,543 -->
became a reservoir that could be used
2037
03:03:33,669 --> 03:03:36,879 -->
and which indeed was used to an amazing extent.
2038
03:03:38,841 --> 03:03:40,842 -->
You mean that one can compare...
2039
03:03:40,968 --> 03:03:42,885 -->
- One can actually compare... - Each measure?
2040
03:03:43,012 --> 03:03:50,560 -->
One can compare a rather large number of German laws and decrees
2041
03:03:50,686 --> 03:03:53,062 -->
with their counterparts in the past
2042
03:03:53,605 --> 03:03:56,107 -->
and find complete parallels,
2043
03:03:56,233 --> 03:03:57,942 -->
even in detail,
2044
03:03:59,111 --> 03:04:01,612 -->
as if they were a memory
2045
03:04:02,364 --> 03:04:06,909 -->
which automatically extended to the period of 1933
2046
03:04:07,036 --> 03:04:11,748 -->
and 1935 and 1939 and beyond.
2047
03:04:12,583 --> 03:04:15,668 -->
In such respect, they didn't invent anything?
2048
03:04:15,794 --> 03:04:17,545 -->
They invented very little,
2049
03:04:17,671 --> 03:04:20,131 -->
and they did not invent the portrait of the Jew,
2050
03:04:20,257 --> 03:04:22,633 -->
which also was taken over, lock, stock and barrel,
2051
03:04:22,760 --> 03:04:26,512 -->
from writings going back to the 16th century.
2052
03:04:26,638 --> 03:04:28,389 -->
So, even the propaganda,
2053
03:04:28,515 --> 03:04:31,684 -->
the realm of the imagination and invention,
2054
03:04:31,810 --> 03:04:34,479 -->
even there, they were remarkably in the footsteps
2055
03:04:34,605 --> 03:04:36,606 -->
of those who preceded them,
2056
03:04:36,732 --> 03:04:40,568 -->
from Martin Luther to the 19th century.
2057
03:04:42,362 --> 03:04:44,697 -->
And, here again, they were not inventive.
2058
03:04:45,157 --> 03:04:47,992 -->
They had to become inventive with the 'final solution'.
2059
03:04:48,118 --> 03:04:49,994 -->
That was their great invention,
2060
03:04:50,120 --> 03:04:53,414 -->
and that is what made this entire process different
2061
03:04:53,540 --> 03:04:57,418 -->
from all others that had preceded that event.
2062
03:04:58,796 --> 03:05:00,797 -->
And, in this respect,
2063
03:05:02,257 --> 03:05:08,304 -->
what transpired when the final solution was... adopted,
2064
03:05:08,430 --> 03:05:10,848 -->
or, to be more precise,
2065
03:05:11,683 --> 03:05:15,061 -->
when the bureaucracy moved into it,
2066
03:05:17,022 --> 03:05:19,357 -->
was a turning point in history.
2067
03:05:22,444 --> 03:05:28,825 -->
Even here, I would suggest a logical progression,
2068
03:05:30,035 --> 03:05:32,995 -->
one which came to fruition
2069
03:05:34,373 --> 03:05:37,125 -->
in what might be called closure,
2070
03:05:38,961 --> 03:05:41,337 -->
because, from the earliest days,
2071
03:05:41,463 --> 03:05:45,341 -->
from the fourth century, fifth century, sixth century,
2072
03:05:46,343 --> 03:05:50,555 -->
the missionaries of Christianity had said, in effect, to the Jews,
2073
03:05:50,681 --> 03:05:54,934 -->
"You may not live among us as Jews."
2074
03:05:55,853 --> 03:05:58,396 -->
The secular rulers who followed them,
2075
03:05:58,897 --> 03:06:03,651 -->
from the late Middle Ages, had then decided,
2076
03:06:03,777 --> 03:06:06,237 -->
"You may not live among us,"
2077
03:06:07,030 --> 03:06:09,574 -->
and the Nazis finally decreed,
2078
03:06:10,033 --> 03:06:11,742 -->
"You may not live."
2079
03:06:13,912 --> 03:06:18,583 -->
This means that the three steps were... The first one was conversion.
2080
03:06:19,168 --> 03:06:22,378 -->
- Conversion, followed by... - The second one, ghettoisation.
2081
03:06:22,504 --> 03:06:23,921 -->
- Expulsion. - Or expulsion.
2082
03:06:24,047 --> 03:06:25,882 -->
Expulsion.
2083
03:06:26,008 --> 03:06:28,885 -->
And the third was the territorial solution,
2084
03:06:30,053 --> 03:06:33,014 -->
which was, of course, the solution carried out
2085
03:06:33,140 --> 03:06:35,141 -->
within the territories under German command,
2086
03:06:35,267 --> 03:06:37,435 -->
excluding emigration:
2087
03:06:37,561 --> 03:06:39,312 -->
death...
2088
03:06:40,522 --> 03:06:42,315 -->
The final solution.
2089
03:06:42,900 --> 03:06:46,527 -->
And the "final solution," you see, is really final,
2090
03:06:47,237 --> 03:06:53,326 -->
because people who are converted can yet be, in secret, Jews,
2091
03:06:53,452 --> 03:06:57,038 -->
people who are expelled can yet return,
2092
03:06:57,706 --> 03:07:02,210 -->
but people who are dead will not reappear.
2093
03:07:05,881 --> 03:07:12,553 -->
In such a respect, in the last stage, they were really pioneers and inventors?
2094
03:07:13,597 --> 03:07:17,266 -->
This was something unprecedented, and this was something new.
2095
03:07:25,067 --> 03:07:27,360 -->
How can one figure...
2096
03:07:27,486 --> 03:07:32,657 -->
give some ideas about the complete newness of this,
2097
03:07:32,783 --> 03:07:36,202 -->
because I think that it was new for themselves too?
2098
03:07:37,079 --> 03:07:38,496 -->
Yes, it was new,
2099
03:07:38,622 --> 03:07:46,087 -->
and this... I think, for this reason that one cannot find a specific document,
2100
03:07:46,213 --> 03:07:50,007 -->
a specific plan, outline or blueprint
2101
03:07:50,634 --> 03:07:54,011 -->
which states, "Now, the Jews will be killed."
2102
03:07:54,846 --> 03:07:58,391 -->
Everything is left to inference from general words.
2103
03:07:58,517 --> 03:08:01,060 -->
- Inference from...? - General wording.
2104
03:08:01,186 --> 03:08:04,563 -->
The very wording "final solution" or "total solution",
2105
03:08:04,690 --> 03:08:06,899 -->
or "territorial solution",
2106
03:08:07,526 --> 03:08:11,529 -->
leaves something to the bureaucrat that he must infer.
2107
03:08:11,655 --> 03:08:13,614 -->
He cannot read that document.
2108
03:08:13,740 --> 03:08:17,451 -->
One cannot even read Goring's famous letter to Heydrich,
2109
03:08:17,577 --> 03:08:19,620 -->
at the end of July 1941,
2110
03:08:19,746 --> 03:08:23,541 -->
charging him in two paragraphs to proceed with the final solution.
2111
03:08:23,667 --> 03:08:27,753 -->
And taking that document aside, everything is clarified?
2112
03:08:27,879 --> 03:08:29,422 -->
Far from it.
2113
03:08:29,548 --> 03:08:30,881 -->
- Far from it? - Far from it.
2114
03:08:31,008 --> 03:08:33,926 -->
It was an authorisation to invent.
2115
03:08:34,052 --> 03:08:36,804 -->
It was an authorisation to begin something
2116
03:08:36,930 --> 03:08:41,183 -->
that was not as yet capable of being put into words.
2117
03:08:48,859 --> 03:08:51,444 -->
I think it... I think of it that way.
2118
03:08:52,404 --> 03:08:55,656 -->
It was a case for every agency, as a matter off act.
2119
03:08:55,782 --> 03:08:57,575 -->
Absolutely, for every agency.
2120
03:08:57,701 --> 03:09:02,121 -->
In every aspect of this operation, invention was necessary.
2121
03:09:03,332 --> 03:09:05,458 -->
Certainly at this point,
2122
03:09:05,584 --> 03:09:08,753 -->
because every problem was unprecedented:
2123
03:09:09,796 --> 03:09:13,174 -->
not just how to kill the Jews, but what to do with their property thereafter,
2124
03:09:13,300 --> 03:09:14,717 -->
and, not only that,
2125
03:09:14,843 --> 03:09:16,385 -->
but how to deal with the problem
2126
03:09:16,511 --> 03:09:19,722 -->
of not letting the world know what had happened.
2127
03:09:19,848 --> 03:09:23,434 -->
All of these multitudes of problems were new.
2128
03:10:40,595 --> 03:10:42,430 -->
(Children shouting)
2129
03:11:01,700 --> 03:11:03,617 -->
(Van door closes)
2130
03:11:22,471 --> 03:11:25,598 -->
FRANZ SCHALLING
2131
03:11:28,727 --> 03:11:33,898 -->
(Lanzmann in German) First, explain to me...
2132
03:11:34,357 --> 03:11:38,777 -->
how you came to Kulmhof, to Chelmno.
2133
03:11:39,571 --> 03:11:41,864 -->
You were at Lodz, right?
2134
03:11:41,990 --> 03:11:43,782 -->
- (Schalling) In Lodz, yes. - Litzmannstadt?
2135
03:11:43,909 --> 03:11:46,118 -->
(Schalling) In Litzmannstadt, yes.
2136
03:11:46,244 --> 03:11:50,748 -->
We were on permanent guard duty.
2137
03:11:51,583 --> 03:11:54,210 -->
Protecting military objectives: mills,
2138
03:11:54,711 --> 03:11:58,339 -->
the roads, when Hitler went to East Prussia.
2139
03:11:59,049 --> 03:12:02,134 -->
It was dreary, and we were told,
2140
03:12:02,260 --> 03:12:07,723 -->
"We're looking for men who want to break out of this routine."
2141
03:12:07,849 --> 03:12:10,017 -->
So we volunteered.
2142
03:12:11,645 --> 03:12:14,355 -->
We were issued winter uniforms,
2143
03:12:14,814 --> 03:12:19,235 -->
overcoats, fur hats, fur-lined boots,
2144
03:12:20,111 --> 03:12:24,657 -->
and 2 or 3 days later, we were told, "We're off!"
2145
03:12:25,659 --> 03:12:29,203 -->
We were put aboard 2 or 3 trucks... I don't know...
2146
03:12:29,329 --> 03:12:33,582 -->
They had benches,
2147
03:12:34,251 --> 03:12:36,210 -->
and we rode and rode.
2148
03:12:36,336 --> 03:12:38,837 -->
Finally we arrived.
2149
03:12:40,674 --> 03:12:44,093 -->
The place was crawling with SS men and police.
2150
03:12:44,219 --> 03:12:48,430 -->
Our first question was, "What goes on here?"
2151
03:12:48,557 --> 03:12:51,475 -->
They said, "You'll find out!"
2152
03:12:51,601 --> 03:12:54,562 -->
- (Lanzmann) You'll find out? - You'll find out.
2153
03:12:54,688 --> 03:12:56,772 -->
(Lanzmann) Yes.
2154
03:12:56,898 --> 03:13:00,192 -->
- You weren't in the SS, you were... - Police.
2155
03:13:00,318 --> 03:13:03,988 -->
- Which police? - Security guards.
2156
03:13:04,781 --> 03:13:08,993 -->
We were ordered to report to the Deutsche Haus,
2157
03:13:09,119 --> 03:13:13,122 -->
the only big stone building in the village.
2158
03:13:13,248 --> 03:13:14,248 -->
Yes.
2159
03:13:14,374 --> 03:13:16,333 -->
We were taken into it.
2160
03:13:17,377 --> 03:13:19,670 -->
An SS man immediately told us,
2161
03:13:19,796 --> 03:13:22,965 -->
"This is a top secret mission."
2162
03:13:23,091 --> 03:13:25,426 -->
- Secret? - "A top secret mission."
2163
03:13:25,552 --> 03:13:27,344 -->
- Yes. - "Sign this!"
2164
03:13:27,470 --> 03:13:29,430 -->
We each had to sign.
2165
03:13:29,556 --> 03:13:33,350 -->
There was a form ready for each of us.
2166
03:13:36,313 --> 03:13:38,564 -->
What did it say?
2167
03:13:38,690 --> 03:13:41,859 -->
It was a pledge of secrecy.
2168
03:13:41,985 --> 03:13:44,695 -->
We never even got to read it through.
2169
03:13:44,821 --> 03:13:47,072 -->
You had to take an oath?
2170
03:13:47,198 --> 03:13:50,200 -->
- No, just sign... - Yes.
2171
03:13:50,327 --> 03:13:53,871 -->
Promising to shut up about whatever we'd see.
2172
03:13:53,997 --> 03:13:55,581 -->
- Shut up? - Not say a word.
2173
03:13:55,707 --> 03:13:57,166 -->
Yes.
2174
03:13:57,292 --> 03:14:01,420 -->
After we'd signed, we were told,
2175
03:14:02,005 --> 03:14:03,756 -->
"Final solution to the Jewish question."
2176
03:14:03,882 --> 03:14:07,843 -->
We didn't understand what that meant.
2177
03:14:07,969 --> 03:14:09,762 -->
So someone said...?
2178
03:14:09,888 --> 03:14:12,973 -->
He told us what was going to happen there.
2179
03:14:13,099 --> 03:14:16,894 -->
Someone said, "The final solution to the Jewish question."
2180
03:14:17,020 --> 03:14:21,315 -->
You'd be assigned to the "final solution"?
2181
03:14:21,441 --> 03:14:24,193 -->
Yes, but what did that mean?
2182
03:14:24,319 --> 03:14:26,487 -->
We'd never heard that before.
2183
03:14:26,613 --> 03:14:28,614 -->
So it was explained to us.
2184
03:14:28,740 --> 03:14:30,908 -->
Just when was this?
2185
03:14:31,034 --> 03:14:33,577 -->
Let's see... when was it...?
2186
03:14:34,913 --> 03:14:37,915 -->
In the winter of 1941-42.
2187
03:14:44,297 --> 03:14:47,424 -->
Then we were assigned to our stations.
2188
03:14:47,550 --> 03:14:51,470 -->
Our guard post was at the side of the road.
2189
03:14:51,596 --> 03:14:54,348 -->
A sentry box in front of the castle.
2190
03:14:54,808 --> 03:14:58,477 -->
(Lanzmann) So you were in the "castle detail"?
2191
03:15:01,314 --> 03:15:03,190 -->
(Schalling) That's right.
2192
03:15:04,359 --> 03:15:08,320 -->
(Lanzmann) Can you describe what you saw?
2193
03:15:09,781 --> 03:15:12,574 -->
We could see. We were at the gatehouse.
2194
03:15:12,701 --> 03:15:13,784 -->
Yes?
2195
03:15:13,910 --> 03:15:18,497 -->
When the Jews arrived, the way they looked,
2196
03:15:18,623 --> 03:15:23,085 -->
half-frozen, starved, dirty, already half-dead.
2197
03:15:23,211 --> 03:15:26,046 -->
Old people, children.
2198
03:15:27,173 --> 03:15:32,594 -->
Think of it! The long trip here standing in a truck, packed in!
2199
03:15:34,222 --> 03:15:37,182 -->
Who knows if they knew what was in store?
2200
03:15:37,934 --> 03:15:40,310 -->
They didn't trust anyone, that's for sure.
2201
03:15:40,437 --> 03:15:43,647 -->
After months in the ghetto, you can imagine!
2202
03:15:45,066 --> 03:15:46,483 -->
Yes?
2203
03:15:46,609 --> 03:15:49,445 -->
I heard an SS man shout at them,
2204
03:15:49,571 --> 03:15:52,114 -->
"You're going to be deloused
2205
03:15:52,907 --> 03:15:55,242 -->
"and have a bath.
2206
03:15:55,744 --> 03:15:57,745 -->
"You're going to work here."
2207
03:15:58,246 --> 03:16:01,498 -->
The Jews consented.
2208
03:16:01,624 --> 03:16:04,918 -->
They said, "Yes, that's what we want to do."
2209
03:16:06,588 --> 03:16:09,006 -->
(Lanzmann) Was the castle big?
2210
03:16:10,467 --> 03:16:13,385 -->
Pretty big, with huge front steps.
2211
03:16:13,511 --> 03:16:18,390 -->
The SS man stood at the top of the steps.
2212
03:16:19,809 --> 03:16:22,519 -->
(Lanzmann) Then what happened?
2213
03:16:22,645 --> 03:16:27,399 -->
They were hustled into 2 or 3 big rooms on the first floor.
2214
03:16:28,026 --> 03:16:31,361 -->
They had to undress, give up everything:
2215
03:16:31,488 --> 03:16:33,572 -->
rings, gold, everything.
2216
03:16:36,993 --> 03:16:40,370 -->
(Lanzmann) How long did the Jews stay there?
2217
03:16:40,830 --> 03:16:43,582 -->
- Long enough to undress. - Yes.
2218
03:16:43,708 --> 03:16:46,084 -->
Then, stark naked,
2219
03:16:46,211 --> 03:16:50,422 -->
they had to run down more steps
2220
03:16:51,508 --> 03:16:53,592 -->
to an underground corridor
2221
03:16:54,677 --> 03:16:58,388 -->
that led back up to the ramp, where the gas van awaited them.
2222
03:17:00,225 --> 03:17:04,645 -->
(Lanzmann) Did the Jews enter the van willingly?
2223
03:17:06,272 --> 03:17:08,649 -->
No, they were beaten.
2224
03:17:09,150 --> 03:17:13,153 -->
Blows fell everywhere, and the Jews understood.
2225
03:17:13,279 --> 03:17:15,030 -->
They screamed.
2226
03:17:15,156 --> 03:17:17,032 -->
It was frightful!
2227
03:17:17,784 --> 03:17:19,535 -->
Frightful!
2228
03:17:21,621 --> 03:17:24,540 -->
I know, because we went down to the cellar
2229
03:17:24,666 --> 03:17:26,875 -->
when they were all in the van.
2230
03:17:27,001 --> 03:17:32,840 -->
We opened the cells of the work detail,
2231
03:17:32,966 --> 03:17:35,259 -->
the Jewish workers
2232
03:17:35,385 --> 03:17:40,013 -->
who collected the things thrown out of the 1st-floor window into there.
2233
03:17:42,183 --> 03:17:44,601 -->
(Lanzmann) Describe the gas vans.
2234
03:17:45,770 --> 03:17:48,188 -->
(Schalling) Like moving vans.
2235
03:17:48,314 --> 03:17:50,190 -->
Very big?
2236
03:17:50,316 --> 03:17:52,901 -->
They stretched, say,
2237
03:17:53,027 --> 03:17:55,571 -->
from here to the window.
2238
03:17:55,697 --> 03:17:57,739 -->
Just big trucks,
2239
03:17:57,866 --> 03:18:01,201 -->
like moving vans, with 2 rear doors.
2240
03:18:04,038 --> 03:18:06,540 -->
What system was used?
2241
03:18:06,666 --> 03:18:10,919 -->
How did they kill them?
2242
03:18:11,045 --> 03:18:14,214 -->
- With exhaust fumes. - Exhaust fumes?
2243
03:18:14,716 --> 03:18:19,845 -->
It went like this: a Pole yelled, "Gas!"
2244
03:18:19,971 --> 03:18:25,225 -->
then the driver got under the van to hook up the pipe
2245
03:18:26,269 --> 03:18:31,315 -->
that fed the gas into the van.
2246
03:18:31,441 --> 03:18:34,526 -->
- Yes, but how? - From the motor.
2247
03:18:34,652 --> 03:18:36,987 -->
Yes, but through what?
2248
03:18:37,113 --> 03:18:39,364 -->
A pipe... a tube.
2249
03:18:39,490 --> 03:18:42,284 -->
He fiddled around under the truck.
2250
03:18:42,410 --> 03:18:44,620 -->
I'm not sure how.
2251
03:18:45,705 --> 03:18:48,665 -->
It was just exhaust gas?
2252
03:18:49,667 --> 03:18:51,376 -->
That's all.
2253
03:18:53,087 --> 03:18:54,338 -->
(Lanzmann) Yes.
2254
03:18:55,131 --> 03:18:57,466 -->
Who were the drivers?
2255
03:18:59,135 --> 03:19:00,844 -->
SS men.
2256
03:19:00,970 --> 03:19:04,097 -->
All those men were SS.
2257
03:19:04,223 --> 03:19:07,392 -->
Were there many of these drivers?
2258
03:19:07,518 --> 03:19:09,019 -->
I don't know.
2259
03:19:09,145 --> 03:19:11,772 -->
Were there 2, 3, 5, 10?
2260
03:19:12,231 --> 03:19:15,651 -->
Not that many. 2 or 3, that's all.
2261
03:19:15,777 --> 03:19:18,195 -->
I think there were 2 vans,
2262
03:19:18,821 --> 03:19:22,074 -->
one big, one smaller.
2263
03:19:22,200 --> 03:19:23,700 -->
Yes?
2264
03:19:24,202 --> 03:19:28,872 -->
Did the driver sit in the cabin of the van?
2265
03:19:29,374 --> 03:19:31,291 -->
- Mrs. Uwe? - (Woman) No.
2266
03:19:32,377 --> 03:19:36,880 -->
He climbed into the cabin after the doors were closed
2267
03:19:37,548 --> 03:19:39,841 -->
and started the motor.
2268
03:19:40,468 --> 03:19:44,596 -->
Did he race the motor?
2269
03:19:46,057 --> 03:19:48,767 -->
I don't know.
2270
03:19:49,644 --> 03:19:54,314 -->
Could you hear the sound of the motor?
2271
03:19:55,274 --> 03:19:59,319 -->
Yes, from the gate we could hear it turn over.
2272
03:19:59,445 --> 03:20:03,448 -->
Was it a loud noise?
2273
03:20:03,574 --> 03:20:07,577 -->
The noise of a truck engine.
2274
03:20:07,704 --> 03:20:09,204 -->
Yes.
2275
03:20:09,330 --> 03:20:15,168 -->
The van was stationary while the motor ran?
2276
03:20:16,337 --> 03:20:19,715 -->
- That's right. - Yes.
2277
03:20:19,841 --> 03:20:22,634 -->
Then it started moving.
2278
03:20:23,094 --> 03:20:27,264 -->
We opened the gate, and it headed for the woods.
2279
03:20:27,807 --> 03:20:30,350 -->
Were the people already dead?
2280
03:20:30,476 --> 03:20:32,436 -->
I don't know.
2281
03:20:32,562 --> 03:20:36,398 -->
- It was quiet. No more screams. - No screams.
2282
03:20:36,524 --> 03:20:39,693 -->
You couldn't hear anything as they drove by.
2283
03:20:47,702 --> 03:20:49,953 -->
(Podchlebnik speaks Yiddish)
2284
03:20:52,999 --> 03:20:55,751 -->
(Interpreter j&2 in French) He recalls it was 1941,
2285
03:20:55,877 --> 03:20:58,253 -->
two days before the new year.
2286
03:20:58,379 --> 03:21:00,881 -->
(Podchlebnik continues)
2287
03:21:01,382 --> 03:21:03,967 -->
They were routed out at night...
2288
03:21:07,221 --> 03:21:10,599 -->
...and in the morning they reached Chelmno.
2289
03:21:15,938 --> 03:21:19,107 -->
There was a castle there.
2290
03:21:27,742 --> 03:21:29,951 -->
When he entered the castle courtyard...
2291
03:21:32,080 --> 03:21:34,664 -->
...he knew something awful was going on.
2292
03:21:36,209 --> 03:21:38,627 -->
He already understood.
2293
03:21:38,753 --> 03:21:40,796 -->
THE SITE OF THE CASTLE
2294
03:21:42,048 --> 03:21:43,882 -->
(Podchlebnik continues)
2295
03:21:45,134 --> 03:21:48,178 -->
They saw clothes and shoes...
2296
03:21:50,306 --> 03:21:52,307 -->
...scattered in the courtyard.
2297
03:21:57,355 --> 03:22:00,482 -->
Yet they were alone there.
2298
03:22:00,608 --> 03:22:03,110 -->
He knew his parents had been through there...
2299
03:22:04,737 --> 03:22:07,781 -->
...and there wasn't a Jew left.
2300
03:22:11,160 --> 03:22:13,120 -->
(Podchlebnik continues)
2301
03:22:13,246 --> 03:22:16,373 -->
They were taken down into a cellar.
2302
03:22:20,711 --> 03:22:24,798 -->
On a wall was written, "No one leaves here alive."
2303
03:22:26,175 --> 03:22:28,051 -->
Graffiti in Yiddish.
2304
03:22:29,637 --> 03:22:31,513 -->
There were lots of names.
2305
03:22:33,766 --> 03:22:37,477 -->
He thinks it was the Jews from villages around Chelmno
2306
03:22:37,603 --> 03:22:41,273 -->
who had come before him, who had written their names.
2307
03:22:49,699 --> 03:22:52,701 -->
- (Podchlebnik continues) - A few days after New Year's...
2308
03:22:55,705 --> 03:22:58,748 -->
...they heard people arrive in a truck one morning.
2309
03:23:00,543 --> 03:23:02,711 -->
The people were taken out of the truck...
2310
03:23:05,214 --> 03:23:10,260 -->
...and up to the first floor of the castle.
2311
03:23:10,386 --> 03:23:14,598 -->
The Germans lied, saying they were to be deloused.
2312
03:23:20,646 --> 03:23:23,773 -->
They were chased down the other side...
2313
03:23:25,776 --> 03:23:27,777 -->
...where a van was waiting.
2314
03:23:28,905 --> 03:23:31,198 -->
(Podchlebnik continues)
2315
03:23:33,993 --> 03:23:39,331 -->
The Germans pushed and beat them with their weapons
2316
03:23:39,457 --> 03:23:42,167 -->
to hustle them into the trucks faster.
2317
03:23:53,804 --> 03:23:55,639 -->
(Podchlebnik continues)
2318
03:23:59,977 --> 03:24:03,939 -->
He heard people praying, "Shma Israel"...
2319
03:24:06,943 --> 03:24:10,070 -->
...and he heard the van's rear doors being shut.
2320
03:24:14,867 --> 03:24:17,118 -->
Their screams were heard,
2321
03:24:17,245 --> 03:24:20,205 -->
becoming fainter and fainter...
2322
03:24:23,125 --> 03:24:27,212 -->
...and when there was total silence,
2323
03:24:27,338 --> 03:24:29,422 -->
the van left.
2324
03:24:35,471 --> 03:24:37,472 -->
(Podchlebnik continues)
2325
03:24:43,062 --> 03:24:48,066 -->
He and the 4 others were brought out of the cellar.
2326
03:24:48,192 --> 03:24:49,734 -->
They went upstairs...
2327
03:24:59,453 --> 03:25:03,373 -->
...and gathered up the clothes remaining
2328
03:25:03,499 --> 03:25:06,001 -->
outside the supposed baths.
2329
03:25:15,052 --> 03:25:17,804 -->
(Lanzmann) Did he understand then how they'd died?
2330
03:25:17,930 --> 03:25:20,849 -->
(Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish)
2331
03:25:20,975 --> 03:25:23,601 -->
MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK
2332
03:25:23,728 --> 03:25:29,482 -->
SURVIVOR OF 1ST PERIOD OF EXTERMINATION AT CHELMNO
2333
03:25:29,608 --> 03:25:31,609 -->
THE CASTLE PERIOD
2334
03:25:35,197 --> 03:25:40,076 -->
(Interpreter) Yes, first because there had been rumours of it.
2335
03:25:40,202 --> 03:25:43,997 -->
And when he went out, he saw the sealed vans,
2336
03:25:44,123 --> 03:25:45,790 -->
so he knew.
2337
03:25:45,916 --> 03:25:51,755 -->
(Lanzmann) He understood that people were gassed in the vans?
2338
03:25:51,881 --> 03:25:53,882 -->
(Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish)
2339
03:26:05,770 --> 03:26:08,688 -->
Yes, because he'd heard the screams
2340
03:26:08,814 --> 03:26:11,816 -->
and heard how they weakened,
2341
03:26:12,818 --> 03:26:17,405 -->
and later the vans were taken into the woods.
2342
03:26:17,531 --> 03:26:19,657 -->
(Lanzmann) What were the vans like?
2343
03:26:19,784 --> 03:26:21,618 -->
(Interpreter j&2 in Yiddish)
2344
03:26:47,770 --> 03:26:52,774 -->
Like the ones that deliver cigarettes here.
2345
03:26:53,275 --> 03:26:56,861 -->
They were enclosed, with double-leaf rear doors.
2346
03:26:56,987 --> 03:26:58,988 -->
(Lanzmann) What colour?
2347
03:27:04,703 --> 03:27:08,748 -->
The colour the Germans used, green, ordinary.
2348
03:27:11,919 --> 03:27:13,628 -->
MARTHA MICHELSOHN
2349
03:27:13,754 --> 03:27:19,426 -->
(Lanzmann) How many German families were there in Kulmhof, Chelmno?
2350
03:27:19,552 --> 03:27:22,804 -->
(Speaks German) Ten or eleven, I'd say.
2351
03:27:24,890 --> 03:27:29,352 -->
Germans from Volhynia and two families from the Reich,
2352
03:27:29,478 --> 03:27:31,980 -->
the Bauers and us.
2353
03:27:32,857 --> 03:27:35,817 -->
- And you? - Us, the Michelsohns.
2354
03:27:35,943 --> 03:27:40,155 -->
How did you wind up in Kulmhof?
2355
03:27:43,451 --> 03:27:45,201 -->
I was born in Laage,
2356
03:27:45,327 --> 03:27:49,372 -->
and I was sent to Kulmhof.
2357
03:27:49,498 --> 03:27:55,211 -->
They were looking for volunteer settlers,
2358
03:27:55,337 --> 03:27:57,088 -->
and I signed up.
2359
03:27:57,214 --> 03:27:59,507 -->
That's how I got there.
2360
03:27:59,633 --> 03:28:02,385 -->
First in Warthbrucken, Kolo,
2361
03:28:02,511 --> 03:28:06,639 -->
then Chelmno... Kulmhof.
2362
03:28:06,765 --> 03:28:08,933 -->
Directly from Laage?
2363
03:28:09,059 --> 03:28:15,607 -->
- No, I left from Munster. - Yes?
2364
03:28:15,733 --> 03:28:19,360 -->
- Did you opt to go to Kulmhof? - Yes.
2365
03:28:19,487 --> 03:28:22,447 -->
No, I asked for Wartheland.
2366
03:28:22,573 --> 03:28:23,781 -->
Why?
2367
03:28:23,908 --> 03:28:25,366 -->
(Murmurs In German)
2368
03:28:26,952 --> 03:28:29,245 -->
A pioneering spirit!
2369
03:28:30,664 --> 03:28:34,626 -->
- You were young? - Oh, yes, I was young.
2370
03:28:34,752 --> 03:28:38,254 -->
- You wanted to be useful? - Yes.
2371
03:28:39,548 --> 03:28:45,136 -->
What was your first impression of Wartheland?
2372
03:28:45,804 --> 03:28:49,140 -->
It was primitive. Super-primitive.
2373
03:28:49,266 --> 03:28:50,850 -->
Meaning...?
2374
03:28:50,976 --> 03:28:53,394 -->
- Even worse... - Even worse?
2375
03:28:53,521 --> 03:28:55,396 -->
Worse than primitive.
2376
03:28:55,523 --> 03:28:58,608 -->
Difficult to understand, right?
2377
03:28:58,734 --> 03:29:00,109 -->
Yes.
2378
03:29:01,362 --> 03:29:02,529 -->
But why...?
2379
03:29:02,655 --> 03:29:07,992 -->
The sanitary facilities were disastrous.
2380
03:29:08,118 --> 03:29:12,413 -->
The only toilet was in Warthbrucken, in the town.
2381
03:29:12,540 --> 03:29:14,165 -->
You had to go there.
2382
03:29:14,291 --> 03:29:18,753 -->
The rest was a disaster.
2383
03:29:19,380 --> 03:29:24,384 -->
- Why a disaster? - There were no toilets at all!
2384
03:29:26,220 --> 03:29:27,428 -->
Yes?
2385
03:29:28,222 --> 03:29:31,224 -->
There were privies.
2386
03:29:32,059 --> 03:29:38,106 -->
I can't tell you how primitive it was.
2387
03:29:40,025 --> 03:29:41,109 -->
Astonishing!
2388
03:29:41,235 --> 03:29:46,114 -->
Why did you choose such a primitive place?
2389
03:29:46,240 --> 03:29:49,784 -->
I was young, you know.
2390
03:29:49,910 --> 03:29:52,704 -->
You can't imagine such places exist.
2391
03:29:52,830 --> 03:29:55,832 -->
You don't believe it. But that's how it was.
2392
03:30:00,754 --> 03:30:02,922 -->
(Michelsohn) This was the whole village.
2393
03:30:03,757 --> 03:30:06,134 -->
A very small village,
2394
03:30:08,596 --> 03:30:10,388 -->
straggling along the road.
2395
03:30:10,514 --> 03:30:13,808 -->
Just a few houses.
2396
03:30:15,352 --> 03:30:19,355 -->
There was the church, the castle,
2397
03:30:19,481 --> 03:30:22,025 -->
a store, too,
2398
03:30:22,151 --> 03:30:25,486 -->
the administrative building and the school.
2399
03:30:26,697 --> 03:30:29,407 -->
The castle was next to the church,
2400
03:30:29,533 --> 03:30:32,368 -->
with a high board fence around both.
2401
03:30:32,494 --> 03:30:34,329 -->
(Lanzmann) Yes.
2402
03:30:37,666 --> 03:30:41,669 -->
How far was your house from the church?
2403
03:30:42,379 --> 03:30:46,174 -->
(Michelsohn) It was just opposite... 150 feet.
2404
03:30:47,176 --> 03:30:50,803 -->
MRS. MICHELSOHN WAS THE NAZI TEACHER'S WIFE
2405
03:30:53,098 --> 03:30:55,433 -->
(Lanzmann) Did you see the gas vans?
2406
03:30:55,559 --> 03:30:57,060 -->
No...
2407
03:30:57,186 --> 03:31:00,521 -->
Yes, from the outside. They shuttled back and forth.
2408
03:31:00,648 --> 03:31:04,942 -->
I never looked inside. I didn't see Jews in them.
2409
03:31:06,612 --> 03:31:08,696 -->
I only saw things from outside,
2410
03:31:08,822 --> 03:31:12,283 -->
the Jews' arrival, their disposition,
2411
03:31:12,826 --> 03:31:15,953 -->
how they were loaded aboard.
2412
03:31:19,458 --> 03:31:21,376 -->
Since World War I,
2413
03:31:21,502 --> 03:31:25,213 -->
the castle had been in ruins.
2414
03:31:26,590 --> 03:31:29,801 -->
Only part of it could still be used.
2415
03:31:30,803 --> 03:31:35,890 -->
That's where the Jews were taken.
2416
03:31:42,022 --> 03:31:46,025 -->
This ruined castle was used...
2417
03:31:46,151 --> 03:31:50,113 -->
For housing and delousing the Poles, and so on.
2418
03:31:50,239 --> 03:31:52,699 -->
- The Jews? - Yes, the Jews.
2419
03:31:52,825 --> 03:31:58,287 -->
Why do you call them "Poles" and not "Jews"?
2420
03:31:58,414 --> 03:32:01,749 -->
- Sometimes, I get them mixed up. - Yes.
2421
03:32:01,875 --> 03:32:04,335 -->
There's a difference between Poles and Jews?
2422
03:32:04,461 --> 03:32:06,754 -->
Oh, yes! Oh, yes!
2423
03:32:06,880 --> 03:32:09,048 -->
What's the difference?
2424
03:32:10,426 --> 03:32:11,801 -->
(Laughs)
2425
03:32:12,928 --> 03:32:16,139 -->
The Poles weren't exterminated,
2426
03:32:16,598 --> 03:32:18,641 -->
and the Jews were.
2427
03:32:18,767 --> 03:32:22,603 -->
That's the difference. An external difference, right?
2428
03:32:23,272 --> 03:32:25,148 -->
And the inner difference?
2429
03:32:25,274 --> 03:32:27,483 -->
I can't assess that.
2430
03:32:27,609 --> 03:32:33,573 -->
I don't know enough about psychology and anthropology.
2431
03:32:34,742 --> 03:32:37,785 -->
The difference between the Poles and the Jews?
2432
03:32:37,911 --> 03:32:40,788 -->
Anyway, they couldn't stand each other.
2433
03:32:43,333 --> 03:32:45,626 -->
(In French) On January 19, 1942,
2434
03:32:45,753 --> 03:32:48,838 -->
the rabbi of Grabow, Jacob Schulmann,
2435
03:32:48,964 --> 03:32:52,800 -->
wrote the following letter to his friends in Lodz:
2436
03:32:53,927 --> 03:32:55,386 -->
"My very dear friends,
2437
03:32:55,512 --> 03:33:00,558 -->
"I didn't write sooner: I wasn't sure of what I'd heard.
2438
03:33:00,684 --> 03:33:04,729 -->
"Alas, to our great grief, we now know all.
2439
03:33:05,355 --> 03:33:09,734 -->
"I've spoken to an eyewitness who managed to escape.
2440
03:33:09,860 --> 03:33:11,652 -->
"He told me everything.
2441
03:33:11,779 --> 03:33:16,073 -->
"They're exterminated in Chelmno, near Dombie,
2442
03:33:16,200 --> 03:33:19,202 -->
"and they're all buried in the nearby Rzeszow forest.
2443
03:33:19,745 --> 03:33:24,749 -->
"The Jews are killed in 2 ways: by shooting or gas.
2444
03:33:24,875 --> 03:33:29,587 -->
"It's just happened to thousands of Lodz Jews.
2445
03:33:30,923 --> 03:33:35,051 -->
"Do not think that this is being written by a madman.
2446
03:33:35,177 --> 03:33:39,013 -->
"Alas, it is the tragic, horrible truth.
2447
03:33:39,973 --> 03:33:44,477 -->
"Horror, horror. Man, shed thy clothes,
2448
03:33:44,603 --> 03:33:47,772 -->
"cover thy head with ashes, run in the streets
2449
03:33:47,898 --> 03:33:50,024 -->
"and dance in thy madness.
2450
03:33:51,401 --> 03:33:54,821 -->
"I am so weary that my pen can no longer write.
2451
03:33:55,280 --> 03:33:58,783 -->
"Creator of the universe, help us!"
2452
03:33:59,827 --> 03:34:04,121 -->
The creator did not help the Jews of Grabow.
2453
03:34:04,248 --> 03:34:08,835 -->
With their rabbi, they all died in the gas van at Chelmno
2454
03:34:08,961 --> 03:34:10,837 -->
a few weeks later.
2455
03:34:10,963 --> 03:34:15,007 -->
Chelmno is only 12 miles from Grabow.
2456
03:34:51,587 --> 03:34:53,588 -->
(Cockerel crowing)
2457
03:35:01,305 --> 03:35:04,515 -->
(Lanzmann) Were there a lot of Jews here in Grabow?
2458
03:35:04,641 --> 03:35:06,434 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
2459
03:35:06,560 --> 03:35:09,520 -->
- (Woman speaks Polish) - A lot, quite a few.
2460
03:35:13,483 --> 03:35:15,860 -->
(Interpreter) They were sent to Chelmno.
2461
03:35:15,986 --> 03:35:19,071 -->
(Lanzmann) Has she always lived near the synagogue?
2462
03:35:19,197 --> 03:35:21,949 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
2463
03:35:29,958 --> 03:35:33,169 -->
The Polish word is "Buzinica" not synagogue.
2464
03:35:33,295 --> 03:35:35,129 -->
(Chatting in Polish)
2465
03:35:43,388 --> 03:35:46,265 -->
She says it's now a furniture warehouse
2466
03:35:46,391 --> 03:35:50,811 -->
but they didn't harm it from a religious point of view.
2467
03:35:50,938 --> 03:35:54,440 -->
It hasn't been... desecrated.
2468
03:35:55,692 --> 03:35:57,985 -->
Does she remember the rabbi at the synagogue?
2469
03:35:58,111 --> 03:36:00,863 -->
(Interpreter j& 1 in Polish)
2470
03:36:01,698 --> 03:36:03,741 -->
(Woman speaks Polish)
2471
03:36:04,618 --> 03:36:07,244 -->
THE SYNAGOGUE IN GRABOW
2472
03:36:07,371 --> 03:36:11,958 -->
She says she's 80 now, and her memory isn't too good,
2473
03:36:12,084 --> 03:36:14,919 -->
and the Jews have been gone for 40 years.
2474
03:36:33,814 --> 03:36:36,941 -->
Barbara, tell this couple they live in a lovely house.
2475
03:36:37,067 --> 03:36:38,901 -->
(Speaks Polish)
2476
03:36:40,779 --> 03:36:43,781 -->
Do they agree? Do they think it's a lovely house?
2477
03:36:46,785 --> 03:36:50,121 -->
Yes.
2478
03:36:54,126 --> 03:36:58,337 -->
Tell me about the decoration of this house, the doors,
2479
03:36:58,463 --> 03:37:00,548 -->
what's it mean?
2480
03:37:07,139 --> 03:37:10,057 -->
People used to do carvings like that.
2481
03:37:10,183 --> 03:37:12,226 -->
Did they decorate it that way?
2482
03:37:13,895 --> 03:37:15,021 -->
No.
2483
03:37:15,147 --> 03:37:18,190 -->
- No, it was the Jews again. - The Jews did it?
2484
03:37:19,317 --> 03:37:22,111 -->
The door's a good century old.
2485
03:37:22,237 --> 03:37:24,238 -->
Did Jews own this house?
2486
03:37:27,534 --> 03:37:29,410 -->
Yes, all these houses.
2487
03:37:29,536 --> 03:37:32,788 -->
All these houses on the square were Jewish?
2488
03:37:36,710 --> 03:37:42,173 -->
Jews lived in all the ones in front, on the street.
2489
03:37:42,299 --> 03:37:45,092 -->
Yes. Where did the Poles live?
2490
03:37:48,013 --> 03:37:51,140 -->
In the courtyards, where the privies were.
2491
03:37:51,266 --> 03:37:53,768 -->
Where the privies were?
2492
03:37:54,811 --> 03:37:57,813 -->
There used to be a store here.
2493
03:37:57,939 --> 03:37:59,190 -->
What kind?
2494
03:38:00,609 --> 03:38:02,485 -->
A food store.
2495
03:38:02,611 --> 03:38:05,654 -->
- Owned by Jews? - Yes.
2496
03:38:06,156 --> 03:38:09,158 -->
So the Jews lived in the front,
2497
03:38:09,284 --> 03:38:12,787 -->
and the Poles in the courtyard with the privies.
2498
03:38:19,795 --> 03:38:21,045 -->
Yes.
2499
03:38:22,047 --> 03:38:24,340 -->
How long have these two lived here?
2500
03:38:24,466 --> 03:38:26,717 -->
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2501
03:38:31,640 --> 03:38:34,141 -->
15 years.
2502
03:38:34,267 --> 03:38:36,936 -->
(Lanzmann) Where did they live before?
2503
03:38:37,395 --> 03:38:38,854 -->
(Wife replies)
2504
03:38:38,980 --> 03:38:40,981 -->
In a courtyard across the square.
2505
03:38:41,108 --> 03:38:42,942 -->
(Lanzmann) They've got rich.
2506
03:38:43,068 --> 03:38:44,610 -->
- Them? - Yes.
2507
03:38:46,404 --> 03:38:47,988 -->
- Yes. - (Laughter)
2508
03:38:48,115 --> 03:38:50,116 -->
(Lanzmann) How did they get rich?
2509
03:38:54,121 --> 03:38:55,830 -->
They worked.
2510
03:38:55,956 --> 03:39:01,293 -->
- How old is the gentleman? - He's 70.
2511
03:39:01,419 --> 03:39:03,546 -->
He looks young and healthy.
2512
03:39:06,800 --> 03:39:08,342 -->
(Barbara laughs)
2513
03:39:08,468 --> 03:39:11,137 -->
Do they remember the Jews of Grabow?
2514
03:39:13,682 --> 03:39:17,017 -->
Yes. And when they were deported, too.
2515
03:39:17,144 --> 03:39:20,729 -->
They recall the deportation of the Grabow Jews?
2516
03:39:21,731 --> 03:39:23,566 -->
He says he speaks "Jew" well.
2517
03:39:23,692 --> 03:39:25,943 -->
- He speaks "Jew"? - Yes.
2518
03:39:27,863 --> 03:39:30,656 -->
As a kid he played with Jews so he speaks "Jew".
2519
03:39:30,782 --> 03:39:35,536 -->
(Husband continues)
2520
03:39:44,379 --> 03:39:49,091 -->
First, they grouped them there, where that restaurant is,
2521
03:39:49,217 --> 03:39:51,927 -->
or in this square, and took their gold.
2522
03:40:08,278 --> 03:40:11,947 -->
An elder among the Jews collected the gold
2523
03:40:12,073 --> 03:40:15,075 -->
and turned it over to the police.
2524
03:40:15,202 --> 03:40:19,914 -->
That done, the Jews were put in the Catholic church.
2525
03:40:20,040 --> 03:40:23,292 -->
(Lanzmann) A lot of gold?
2526
03:40:25,128 --> 03:40:27,671 -->
Yes, the Jews had gold...
2527
03:40:28,131 --> 03:40:31,133 -->
(Wife replies)
2528
03:40:31,259 --> 03:40:34,094 -->
...and some handsome candelabras.
2529
03:40:44,898 --> 03:40:48,901 -->
(Lanzmann) Did the Poles know the Jews would be killed at Chelmno?
2530
03:40:49,027 --> 03:40:50,861 -->
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2531
03:40:56,243 --> 03:40:57,868 -->
Yes, they knew.
2532
03:40:59,537 --> 03:41:01,956 -->
The Jews knew it, too.
2533
03:41:03,083 --> 03:41:06,043 -->
(Lanzmann) Did the Jews try to do something about it,
2534
03:41:06,169 --> 03:41:08,629 -->
to rebel, to escape?
2535
03:41:09,339 --> 03:41:11,340 -->
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2536
03:41:24,771 --> 03:41:26,772 -->
The young tried to run away...
2537
03:41:29,943 --> 03:41:32,319 -->
...but the Germans caught them
2538
03:41:32,445 --> 03:41:36,031 -->
and maybe killed them even more savagely.
2539
03:41:36,157 --> 03:41:38,158 -->
(Man continues)
2540
03:41:45,625 --> 03:41:50,337 -->
In every town and village, 2 or 3 streets were closed,
2541
03:41:50,463 --> 03:41:52,089 -->
and the Jews were kept under guard.
2542
03:41:52,215 --> 03:41:54,133 -->
They couldn't leave there.
2543
03:41:54,843 --> 03:41:56,677 -->
(Man continues)
2544
03:42:00,640 --> 03:42:04,393 -->
Then they were locked in the Polish church here in Grabow
2545
03:42:04,519 --> 03:42:07,021 -->
and later taken to Chelmno.
2546
03:42:08,898 --> 03:42:12,568 -->
THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE BACKGROUND
2547
03:42:21,870 --> 03:42:24,621 -->
(People chatting in Polish)
2548
03:42:38,053 --> 03:42:41,805 -->
The Germans threw children as small as these...
2549
03:42:41,931 --> 03:42:44,683 -->
- Yes? - ...into the trucks by the legs.
2550
03:42:44,809 --> 03:42:46,602 -->
She saw that?
2551
03:42:47,437 --> 03:42:50,647 -->
- Old folks too. - Threw kids into the trucks.
2552
03:42:50,774 --> 03:42:54,276 -->
The Poles knew the Jews would be gassed in Chelmno?
2553
03:42:54,861 --> 03:42:56,528 -->
Did this gentleman know?
2554
03:42:59,449 --> 03:43:01,158 -->
- (Lanzmann) Yes? - Yes.
2555
03:43:05,872 --> 03:43:09,750 -->
(Lanzmann) Does he recall the Jews' deportation from Grabow?
2556
03:43:11,503 --> 03:43:12,961 -->
(Barbara) Yes.
2557
03:43:13,088 --> 03:43:15,798 -->
(Man continues)
2558
03:43:15,924 --> 03:43:18,467 -->
At that time, he worked in the mill.
2559
03:43:18,593 --> 03:43:22,262 -->
- (Lanzmann) There, opposite? - Yes, and they saw it all.
2560
03:43:22,972 --> 03:43:26,517 -->
What did he think of it? Was it a sad sight?
2561
03:43:26,643 --> 03:43:28,477 -->
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2562
03:43:34,943 --> 03:43:36,443 -->
Yes, it was...
2563
03:43:36,986 --> 03:43:38,487 -->
Yes.
2564
03:43:40,407 --> 03:43:44,701 -->
Yes. How could you see that without sadness?
2565
03:43:44,828 --> 03:43:46,995 -->
(Hoof beats)
2566
03:43:52,168 --> 03:43:54,628 -->
What trades were the Jews in?
2567
03:44:02,011 --> 03:44:04,430 -->
They were tanners, tradesmen...
2568
03:44:07,350 --> 03:44:08,851 -->
...tailors.
2569
03:44:15,942 --> 03:44:21,905 -->
They sold things... eggs, chickens, butter.
2570
03:44:25,243 --> 03:44:27,411 -->
(Barbara) There were a lot of tailors...
2571
03:44:29,956 --> 03:44:31,457 -->
...tradesmen, too.
2572
03:44:31,583 --> 03:44:33,083 -->
(Man continues)
2573
03:44:33,209 --> 03:44:35,919 -->
But most were tanners.
2574
03:44:39,632 --> 03:44:44,720 -->
- They had beards and side locks. - (Lanzmann) Yes.
2575
03:44:44,846 --> 03:44:47,055 -->
He says they weren't pretty.
2576
03:44:47,182 --> 03:44:49,141 -->
(Lanzmann) They weren't pretty?
2577
03:44:50,894 --> 03:44:52,769 -->
- They stank, too. - They stank?
2578
03:44:52,896 --> 03:44:54,354 -->
- Yes. - Yes?
2579
03:44:54,481 --> 03:44:56,982 -->
Why did they stink?
2580
03:44:58,443 --> 03:45:02,321 -->
Because they were tanners, and the hides stink.
2581
03:45:03,740 --> 03:45:05,741 -->
(Chatting in Polish)
2582
03:45:06,367 --> 03:45:08,368 -->
The Jewish women were beautiful.
2583
03:45:10,955 --> 03:45:13,665 -->
The Poles liked to make love with them.
2584
03:45:13,791 --> 03:45:16,752 -->
Are Polish women glad there are no Jewesses left?
2585
03:45:16,878 --> 03:45:18,712 -->
(Woman continues in Polish)
2586
03:45:24,469 --> 03:45:27,513 -->
(Lanzmann) What did she say?
2587
03:45:27,639 --> 03:45:31,892 -->
(Barbara) The women who are her age now
2588
03:45:32,018 --> 03:45:34,645 -->
also liked to make love.
2589
03:45:34,771 --> 03:45:37,648 -->
(Lanzmann) So the Jewish women were competitors?
2590
03:45:41,402 --> 03:45:44,947 -->
(Barbara) It's crazy how the Poles liked the little Jewesses!
2591
03:45:45,073 --> 03:45:47,074 -->
Do the Poles miss the little Jewesses?
2592
03:45:51,788 --> 03:45:54,831 -->
(Barbara) Naturally, such beautiful women!
2593
03:45:54,958 --> 03:45:58,544 -->
Why? What made them so beautiful?
2594
03:46:07,762 --> 03:46:10,889 -->
(Barbara) Because they did nothing. Polish women worked.
2595
03:46:11,015 --> 03:46:15,519 -->
Jewish women only thought of their beauty and clothes.
2596
03:46:15,645 --> 03:46:19,064 -->
(Lanzmann) So Jewesses did no work?
2597
03:46:19,190 --> 03:46:20,983 -->
- None at all. - Why not?
2598
03:46:23,820 --> 03:46:28,657 -->
- They were rich. - (Women continue speaking)
2599
03:46:28,783 --> 03:46:32,202 -->
The Poles had to serve them and work.
2600
03:46:32,328 --> 03:46:34,538 -->
(Lanzmann) I heard her use the word "capital."
2601
03:46:35,707 --> 03:46:38,292 -->
(Barbara) The capital was in the hands of the Jews.
2602
03:46:38,418 --> 03:46:40,586 -->
(Lanzmann) Yes... You didn't translate that.
2603
03:46:41,504 --> 03:46:45,716 -->
Ask her again. So the capital was in the Jews' hands?195894
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