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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:07,125 --> 00:00:08,125 LESLIE BENNETT: I'm very happy for you, Rue. 2 00:00:08,208 --> 00:00:10,083 You're about to start a brand new chapter. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,417 You've been clean for, like, two weeks, right? 4 00:00:15,291 --> 00:00:17,000 RUE BENNETT: I've actually been really happy. 5 00:00:17,083 --> 00:00:19,208 ♪ Still don't know my name ♪ 6 00:00:19,291 --> 00:00:21,917 Every time I feel good, I think it'll last forever. 7 00:00:22,208 --> 00:00:23,750 But it doesn't. 8 00:00:25,291 --> 00:00:27,625 We're just reaching for something... 9 00:00:29,583 --> 00:00:31,291 to make it all seem meaningful. 10 00:01:03,917 --> 00:01:05,083 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 11 00:01:25,709 --> 00:01:28,291 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 12 00:01:28,375 --> 00:01:30,250 JOSEPH CATALDO: Did you have some interaction 13 00:01:30,333 --> 00:01:32,500 -with a Conrad Roy Junior? -Yes, I did. 14 00:01:32,583 --> 00:01:34,333 CATALDO: And could you please describe that? 15 00:01:34,417 --> 00:01:36,000 MARYCLARE FLYNN: Objection. 16 00:01:37,250 --> 00:01:38,917 JUDGE MONIZ: Overruled. 17 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,333 I was-- I was-- I responded to an assault call, sir. 18 00:01:42,417 --> 00:01:44,125 CATALDO: Okay. And what did you do when you arrived? 19 00:01:44,208 --> 00:01:46,542 We attempted to find the person that had been assaulted. 20 00:01:46,625 --> 00:01:50,333 CATALDO: Okay. And at some point in time, did you come into, um, 21 00:01:50,417 --> 00:01:53,750 the physical presence of Conrad Roy III? 22 00:01:53,834 --> 00:01:55,417 -I did. -CATALDO: Okay. And uh, 23 00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:57,250 did you make any observations of him? 24 00:01:57,333 --> 00:01:59,625 JUSTIN KING: Yes, his face was swollen red 25 00:01:59,709 --> 00:02:02,166 and he had some uh, lacerations to his face. 26 00:02:04,291 --> 00:02:06,750 CATALDO: Did you obtain a written statement from him? 27 00:02:07,709 --> 00:02:09,417 KING: I did, yes. 28 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:11,583 ♪ (MUSIC CONTINUES) ♪ 29 00:02:28,875 --> 00:02:33,333 I found myself um, at a home located on, uh, Perkins Lane. 30 00:02:33,417 --> 00:02:35,125 CATALDO: And what did you do when you arrived 31 00:02:35,208 --> 00:02:37,000 -at that location? -I interviewed a, uh, 32 00:02:37,083 --> 00:02:38,667 an older male and a female. 33 00:02:38,750 --> 00:02:40,917 CATALDO: Okay. And do you remember the older male's name? 34 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:42,458 Conrad Roy. 35 00:02:42,542 --> 00:02:44,417 CATALDO: And did you ask him specifically what happened? 36 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:45,667 DENNIS TAVARES: Yes, I did. 37 00:02:52,750 --> 00:02:54,875 Before concluding my investigation, uh, 38 00:02:54,959 --> 00:02:57,000 a male party was subsequently placed under arrest. 39 00:02:57,083 --> 00:02:58,750 CATALDO: And who was that male party that was-- 40 00:02:58,834 --> 00:03:00,000 The father. 41 00:03:00,083 --> 00:03:01,500 -The one you were speaking to? -Correct. 42 00:03:01,583 --> 00:03:02,834 CATALDO: And what was he arrested for? 43 00:03:02,917 --> 00:03:04,792 Assault and battery domestic. 44 00:03:04,875 --> 00:03:07,959 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 45 00:03:08,041 --> 00:03:09,583 Yeah. You know, you think at first 46 00:03:09,667 --> 00:03:11,166 it's kind of embarrassing but you know what? 47 00:03:11,250 --> 00:03:12,500 It doesn't really matter. 48 00:03:12,583 --> 00:03:14,792 I know what happened that night with my son. 49 00:03:14,875 --> 00:03:17,333 And I know, like, I was being a parent. 50 00:03:17,417 --> 00:03:19,291 And I know things got out of control 51 00:03:19,375 --> 00:03:21,458 and we both fought each other. (SCOFFS) 52 00:03:22,750 --> 00:03:24,625 And, um... 53 00:03:24,709 --> 00:03:27,208 and I'd do it again just-- just like that. 54 00:03:28,667 --> 00:03:30,834 You know, sometimes, like, 55 00:03:30,917 --> 00:03:32,667 you say it, you know, like-- My father always said, 56 00:03:32,750 --> 00:03:34,792 "If you ever take a swing at me, 57 00:03:35,583 --> 00:03:37,208 you're gonna, um, 58 00:03:37,291 --> 00:03:39,041 you're gonna get it." (CHUCKLES) You know? It's like, 59 00:03:39,125 --> 00:03:41,125 "You're gonna make sure you don't do that ever again." 60 00:03:41,208 --> 00:03:43,500 And I just felt like I had to do the same thing. 61 00:03:47,792 --> 00:03:51,333 ♪ ("COME FIND ME" BY EMILE HAYNIE FEAT. LYKKE LI and ROMY PLAYS) ♪ 62 00:03:59,166 --> 00:04:00,291 ♪ I fall ♪ 63 00:04:01,750 --> 00:04:02,834 ♪ I fall ♪ 64 00:04:04,166 --> 00:04:07,417 ♪ Deeper than ever ♪ 65 00:04:09,041 --> 00:04:10,125 ♪ I call ♪ 66 00:04:11,250 --> 00:04:12,667 ♪ I call ♪ 67 00:04:13,875 --> 00:04:17,375 ♪ Baby, come find me ♪ 68 00:04:18,458 --> 00:04:19,667 ♪ I fall ♪ 69 00:04:20,834 --> 00:04:22,166 ♪ I fall ♪ 70 00:04:23,583 --> 00:04:26,709 ♪ Deeper than ever ♪ 71 00:04:28,041 --> 00:04:29,333 ♪ I call ♪ 72 00:04:30,542 --> 00:04:31,875 ♪ I call ♪ 73 00:04:33,041 --> 00:04:36,166 ♪ Baby, come find me ♪ 74 00:04:37,750 --> 00:04:40,500 ♪ Baby, come find me ♪ 75 00:04:42,750 --> 00:04:45,667 ♪ Baby, come find me ♪ 76 00:04:46,834 --> 00:04:48,458 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 77 00:04:56,875 --> 00:04:58,375 REPORTER: Hard to describe the feeling 78 00:04:58,458 --> 00:04:59,458 in the courtroom today. 79 00:04:59,542 --> 00:05:01,208 Pretty much everyone on edge. 80 00:05:01,291 --> 00:05:03,208 Now, the defense will present their case. 81 00:05:03,291 --> 00:05:05,792 They've already called several witnesses this morning 82 00:05:05,875 --> 00:05:09,583 and things will move forward in this landmark trial. 83 00:05:11,834 --> 00:05:13,208 JESSE BARRON: You have to remember that 84 00:05:13,291 --> 00:05:15,041 this case has two families 85 00:05:15,125 --> 00:05:17,208 who were basically trying to do the same thing. 86 00:05:17,291 --> 00:05:19,000 They both want a version of the story 87 00:05:19,083 --> 00:05:20,834 in which it is not their fault. 88 00:05:20,917 --> 00:05:22,959 The Roys are hoping for a version of the story 89 00:05:23,041 --> 00:05:26,458 where the suicide of their son is Michelle's fault, 90 00:05:26,542 --> 00:05:28,542 and that she was waiting for the moment 91 00:05:28,625 --> 00:05:30,208 when she could pounce on this kid 92 00:05:30,291 --> 00:05:32,291 and make him kill himself and get a bunch of sympathy. 93 00:05:32,375 --> 00:05:34,500 And the Carters are hoping for a version of the story 94 00:05:34,583 --> 00:05:37,792 where Michelle's actions are not her fault. 95 00:05:37,875 --> 00:05:41,291 And that's what Peter Breggin was arguing. 96 00:05:41,375 --> 00:05:44,417 -JUDGE MONIZ: Morning, Doctor. -Good morning, Your Honor. 97 00:05:45,458 --> 00:05:47,417 Please raise your right hand. 98 00:05:47,500 --> 00:05:49,500 In this matter before the court, you swear the testimony you're about to give 99 00:05:49,583 --> 00:05:51,125 to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth 100 00:05:51,208 --> 00:05:52,000 -so help you God? -I do. 101 00:05:52,083 --> 00:05:53,083 Thank you. 102 00:05:53,166 --> 00:05:54,667 All right. Please take a seat, sir. 103 00:05:54,750 --> 00:05:56,667 Make yourself nice and comfortable. 104 00:05:56,750 --> 00:05:58,333 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 105 00:05:58,417 --> 00:06:02,500 I got a call out of the blue from the attorney, Mr. Cataldo. 106 00:06:02,583 --> 00:06:06,333 What he said is, "Doc, we got this case 107 00:06:06,417 --> 00:06:08,583 that we don't know what's going on 108 00:06:08,667 --> 00:06:10,250 and we can't figure out... 109 00:06:11,667 --> 00:06:15,750 Um... Give us a hand." (LAUGHS) 110 00:06:18,125 --> 00:06:19,834 I was originally called in 111 00:06:19,917 --> 00:06:22,208 to see whether Conrad Roy's medication 112 00:06:22,291 --> 00:06:23,625 had made him suicidal. 113 00:06:27,166 --> 00:06:32,542 He was on psychiatric drugs, antidepressants, 114 00:06:32,625 --> 00:06:37,291 and if you look at the research on what the psych drugs do... 115 00:06:37,375 --> 00:06:38,917 they can cause suicide. 116 00:06:40,208 --> 00:06:43,667 I concluded it was a contributing factor 117 00:06:43,750 --> 00:06:45,917 but not an overwhelming factor 118 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,625 because there were many other things impinging on Conrad. 119 00:06:49,709 --> 00:06:51,333 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 120 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,000 Conrad was reacting to a very unhappy, 121 00:07:08,083 --> 00:07:12,000 angry, and at times, violent divorce. We know that. 122 00:07:12,083 --> 00:07:15,041 The father charged the mother with assault. 123 00:07:17,625 --> 00:07:21,917 There're all these things coming to bear on him. 124 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:28,834 Then I found out that Michelle was... on psychiatric drugs too. 125 00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:31,917 And so, we have these two kids; 126 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,667 they're not star crossed, they're drug crossed. 127 00:07:35,750 --> 00:07:41,250 When did Michelle Carter start, uh, consuming SSRIs? 128 00:07:41,333 --> 00:07:43,417 She started Prozac (CLEARS THROAT) 129 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:49,750 on February 17, 2011, uh, ten milligrams. 130 00:07:50,834 --> 00:07:54,083 And, uh, she was just a young girl then, 131 00:07:54,166 --> 00:07:55,959 fourteen going on 15. 132 00:07:56,041 --> 00:07:57,667 CATALDO: Okay, thank you. 133 00:08:00,542 --> 00:08:03,291 BREGGIN: Prozac greatly increase the risk 134 00:08:03,375 --> 00:08:07,083 of suicide in young people her age. 135 00:08:07,166 --> 00:08:10,542 And she never should've been given Prozac 136 00:08:10,625 --> 00:08:12,375 because she was bulimic, 137 00:08:12,458 --> 00:08:16,333 and that would increase the power of Prozac over her. 138 00:08:16,417 --> 00:08:19,834 And not long after her first exposure to Prozac, 139 00:08:19,917 --> 00:08:22,083 she climbed up on a stool 140 00:08:22,166 --> 00:08:24,875 and put a noose around her neck in her closet. 141 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:26,083 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 142 00:08:29,875 --> 00:08:32,375 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 143 00:08:44,583 --> 00:08:47,834 Now at the same moment, Conrad Roy, 144 00:08:47,917 --> 00:08:50,709 whom at that point she thought was a sweet boyfriend 145 00:08:50,792 --> 00:08:52,625 without any serious problems, 146 00:08:52,709 --> 00:08:55,709 was admitted to a psychiatric hospital 147 00:08:55,792 --> 00:08:58,375 for a serious suicide attempt. 148 00:08:58,458 --> 00:08:59,583 (DOG BARKING) 149 00:08:59,667 --> 00:09:00,792 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 150 00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:47,333 So now Michelle, who's a youngster 151 00:09:48,250 --> 00:09:51,166 who's on Prozac at the time, 152 00:09:51,250 --> 00:09:55,250 is dealing with this huge disclosure. 153 00:09:55,333 --> 00:09:58,667 It's-- And he is saying "I'm not who you thought I was." 154 00:09:58,750 --> 00:10:01,250 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 155 00:10:01,333 --> 00:10:04,083 BREGGIN: And furthermore, as announced to her 156 00:10:04,166 --> 00:10:07,875 that voices are telling himself to kill himself tonight. 157 00:10:09,709 --> 00:10:10,834 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 158 00:10:16,583 --> 00:10:18,709 Michelle becomes desperate. 159 00:10:18,792 --> 00:10:20,208 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 160 00:10:21,375 --> 00:10:23,583 Conrad won't answer her. 161 00:10:23,667 --> 00:10:25,417 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 162 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:27,709 And she thinks he's killed himself. 163 00:10:28,542 --> 00:10:29,667 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 164 00:10:33,166 --> 00:10:35,709 (SIRENS BLARING) 165 00:10:38,542 --> 00:10:43,417 Conrad, at least four times, attempted suicide, 166 00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:45,750 once nearly killing himself. 167 00:10:47,583 --> 00:10:50,208 LYNN ROY: He overdosed on acetaminophen. 168 00:10:51,625 --> 00:10:53,375 And the EMTs call me. 169 00:10:54,792 --> 00:10:56,625 And, um, they ask, they're like, 170 00:10:56,709 --> 00:11:01,000 "Well, he threw-- You know, threw up a lot. 171 00:11:01,083 --> 00:11:04,000 Do you want, um, him to be seen?" 172 00:11:04,083 --> 00:11:07,291 (SCOFFS) I said "Absolutely." 173 00:11:07,375 --> 00:11:08,625 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 174 00:11:20,583 --> 00:11:24,375 He almost needed a liver transplant at that time. 175 00:11:24,458 --> 00:11:27,000 He said he would never do that again. 176 00:11:27,083 --> 00:11:28,917 He said, "I-- I promise you 177 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,208 I will nev-- never do that again." 178 00:11:34,041 --> 00:11:36,458 I said, "You know that if you died, 179 00:11:37,583 --> 00:11:38,917 Mom... 180 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,083 would want to die too. You know that, right?" 181 00:11:45,333 --> 00:11:46,458 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 182 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,291 CATALDO: And how is this relevant 183 00:12:03,375 --> 00:12:05,792 to your clinical analysis of this case? 184 00:12:05,875 --> 00:12:08,500 Well, it has to do with the... 185 00:12:09,709 --> 00:12:11,959 effects of Conrad... 186 00:12:13,542 --> 00:12:16,625 on what will eventually become 187 00:12:17,834 --> 00:12:22,542 her idea taken from him 188 00:12:22,625 --> 00:12:25,834 that he's going to kill himself, 189 00:12:25,917 --> 00:12:31,583 and that all he cares about is doing it swiftly and quickly 190 00:12:31,667 --> 00:12:34,083 and not botching it. 191 00:12:34,166 --> 00:12:38,333 She's following his lead into a very dark place. 192 00:12:39,208 --> 00:12:40,333 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 193 00:12:41,333 --> 00:12:42,500 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 194 00:12:44,250 --> 00:12:45,375 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 195 00:13:47,333 --> 00:13:49,375 BREGGIN: Probably the most common 196 00:13:49,458 --> 00:13:52,291 adverse effect of antidepressants is nightmares. 197 00:13:52,375 --> 00:13:54,458 So, this is just spot on. 198 00:13:54,542 --> 00:13:58,583 She's clearly out of her mind, and so is he. 199 00:13:59,542 --> 00:14:00,625 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 200 00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:06,959 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 201 00:14:41,542 --> 00:14:44,250 CATALDO: You can't look at one text message. 202 00:14:44,333 --> 00:14:48,875 You have to look at the totality of their relationship. 203 00:14:48,959 --> 00:14:51,000 You have somebody, Conrad Roy, 204 00:14:51,083 --> 00:14:54,250 who has been suicidal for a very long time, 205 00:14:54,333 --> 00:14:58,625 really, at this point in time, intent on killing himself. 206 00:14:58,709 --> 00:15:00,166 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 207 00:15:00,250 --> 00:15:02,750 She, if you look at her for a year and a half, 208 00:15:02,834 --> 00:15:06,375 never wanted him to die. Didn't want him to kill himself. 209 00:15:06,458 --> 00:15:07,667 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 210 00:15:09,792 --> 00:15:12,083 What caused her to switch? 211 00:15:12,166 --> 00:15:13,709 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 212 00:15:13,792 --> 00:15:15,333 BREGGIN: It struck me 213 00:15:15,417 --> 00:15:18,583 that she was in an extremely abusive relationship. 214 00:15:18,667 --> 00:15:22,750 There's this constant harassing of her 215 00:15:22,834 --> 00:15:25,834 while he's not telling family. 216 00:15:25,917 --> 00:15:27,792 And at one point toward the end, 217 00:15:27,875 --> 00:15:29,583 -Conrad tells her... -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 218 00:15:29,667 --> 00:15:33,041 BREGGIN: "The one thing that will make me hate you 219 00:15:33,125 --> 00:15:37,000 is if you tell anyone that I'm suicidal." 220 00:15:37,083 --> 00:15:39,625 -And she listens. -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 221 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,417 BREGGIN: Michelle got it all. 222 00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:44,583 There's this huge pyramid of his misery 223 00:15:44,667 --> 00:15:47,083 and at the bottom of it is sitting Michelle Carter 224 00:15:47,166 --> 00:15:48,667 and nobody else. 225 00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:53,709 Conrad told Michelle that his mother knew 226 00:15:53,792 --> 00:15:55,417 that he was suicidal. 227 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:57,000 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 228 00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,542 CATALDO: He actually screenshotted her, Michelle, 229 00:16:06,625 --> 00:16:10,083 his laptop, of methods how to kill yourself. 230 00:16:10,166 --> 00:16:11,375 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 231 00:16:14,166 --> 00:16:16,709 CATALDO: Michelle says, "Well, didn't she say anything to you?" 232 00:16:16,792 --> 00:16:18,875 And Conrad responded, "No, 233 00:16:18,959 --> 00:16:20,875 she just looked at it and walked away." 234 00:16:20,959 --> 00:16:22,083 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 235 00:16:27,792 --> 00:16:30,458 What Conrad is doing is manipulating 236 00:16:30,542 --> 00:16:34,208 and lying to Michelle, saying, "My mom even knows." 237 00:16:34,291 --> 00:16:35,500 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 238 00:16:39,375 --> 00:16:43,500 The whole story became deeper, 239 00:16:43,583 --> 00:16:48,959 and the theme was running the exact opposite 240 00:16:49,041 --> 00:16:52,667 of the DA's witch hunt. 241 00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:56,917 In fact, both were victims of the psychiatric drugs. 242 00:16:58,083 --> 00:17:01,625 CATALDO: What is a involuntary intoxication? 243 00:17:01,709 --> 00:17:06,291 Well, by definition it's an intoxication, 244 00:17:06,375 --> 00:17:08,333 which means that 245 00:17:08,417 --> 00:17:12,500 the neurochemistry of the brain has been disrupted. 246 00:17:12,583 --> 00:17:16,667 And that this intoxication is observable 247 00:17:16,750 --> 00:17:21,041 through thoughts, behaviors, activities. 248 00:17:22,583 --> 00:17:27,166 They involve, in general, things like impulsivity, 249 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,125 impaired judgment... 250 00:17:30,208 --> 00:17:32,250 CATALDO: And specifically, Dr. Breggin, 251 00:17:32,333 --> 00:17:34,750 as to Michelle Carter, did you have an opinion 252 00:17:34,834 --> 00:17:37,959 of whether or not she was involuntarily intoxicated? 253 00:17:38,917 --> 00:17:39,875 BREGGIN: Yes. 254 00:17:39,959 --> 00:17:41,542 And what is that opinion? 255 00:17:41,625 --> 00:17:44,542 BREGGIN: She was involuntarily intoxicated. 256 00:17:44,625 --> 00:17:52,291 She was taking Prozac and she then switched to Celexa. 257 00:17:52,375 --> 00:17:54,959 CATALDO: And are you able to, uh, pinpoint 258 00:17:55,041 --> 00:17:58,125 about when she became involuntarily intoxicated? 259 00:17:58,208 --> 00:18:00,834 Yes, on July 2nd, 260 00:18:00,917 --> 00:18:06,125 she begins to help him go to heaven. 261 00:18:06,208 --> 00:18:07,583 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 262 00:18:07,667 --> 00:18:09,959 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 263 00:18:15,667 --> 00:18:19,709 At this point, she has an involuntary intoxication 264 00:18:19,792 --> 00:18:24,000 where she's not forming a criminal intent, 265 00:18:24,083 --> 00:18:26,166 "I'm gonna harm him." 266 00:18:26,250 --> 00:18:29,750 She's not doing something she thinks is criminal, 267 00:18:29,834 --> 00:18:31,500 "This is bad." 268 00:18:31,583 --> 00:18:32,667 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 269 00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:34,333 BREGGIN: She's thinking 270 00:18:34,417 --> 00:18:36,917 that it's a good thing to help him die. 271 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,250 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 272 00:18:39,333 --> 00:18:42,291 BREGGIN: That she can mitigate the circumstances. 273 00:18:42,375 --> 00:18:43,834 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 274 00:18:46,875 --> 00:18:50,083 BREGGIN: That she can then go and help his family. 275 00:18:50,166 --> 00:18:51,375 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 276 00:18:55,083 --> 00:18:58,625 And like anybody who's in a hypomanic state, 277 00:18:58,709 --> 00:19:01,500 she gets very angry when she's disrupted. 278 00:19:01,583 --> 00:19:02,750 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 279 00:19:11,166 --> 00:19:13,125 BREGGIN: This is now the way. 280 00:19:13,208 --> 00:19:15,875 She's found the way to finally help. 281 00:19:21,333 --> 00:19:22,417 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 282 00:22:49,667 --> 00:22:51,375 DR. ANNE GLOWINSKI: Involuntary intoxication 283 00:22:51,458 --> 00:22:53,458 is a diagnosis that I never use, 284 00:22:53,542 --> 00:22:57,375 and that most of the colleagues that I know don't use. 285 00:22:57,458 --> 00:23:00,041 But that is using forensic psychiatry. 286 00:23:00,125 --> 00:23:03,583 So, without, you know, without, uh, any consensus 287 00:23:03,667 --> 00:23:06,250 by our profession that it's even real. 288 00:23:06,333 --> 00:23:10,375 In some children and adolescents taking antidepressants, 289 00:23:10,458 --> 00:23:12,333 it can be disinhibiting. 290 00:23:12,417 --> 00:23:14,542 I wouldn't call it drastic, you know? 291 00:23:14,625 --> 00:23:19,083 But, uh, if you become manic when you're on antidepressant, 292 00:23:19,166 --> 00:23:21,000 that's pretty drastic, you know, 293 00:23:21,083 --> 00:23:24,792 and that happens in a very small proportion of cases. 294 00:23:29,125 --> 00:23:31,291 You may resume when you are ready, Miss Rayburn. 295 00:23:31,375 --> 00:23:32,542 Thank you very much, Your Honor. 296 00:23:32,625 --> 00:23:34,291 -Uh, good morning, sir. -Morning. 297 00:23:34,375 --> 00:23:35,792 KATIE RAYBURN: You would agree with me 298 00:23:35,875 --> 00:23:39,750 at the time between July 2nd and July 12th, 2014, 299 00:23:39,834 --> 00:23:42,417 the defendant was going to camp, correct? 300 00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:43,959 -BREGGIN: Yes. -RAYBURN: Okay. 301 00:23:44,041 --> 00:23:46,917 She was interacting with friends at times, correct? 302 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,125 -BREGGIN: Yes. -She's seeking therapy 303 00:23:49,208 --> 00:23:50,417 and talking to her therapist, 304 00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:52,208 -correct? -Yes. 305 00:23:52,291 --> 00:23:53,709 RAYBURN: And you would agree with me 306 00:23:53,792 --> 00:23:55,291 that the therapist describes her appearance as 307 00:23:55,375 --> 00:23:57,917 good eye contact, well groomed, correct? Okay? 308 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,417 -Yeah. -RAYBURN: All right. 309 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:02,375 Short-term memory intact. Judgment good. Correct? 310 00:24:02,458 --> 00:24:03,667 Mm-hmm. 311 00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:05,417 RAYBURN: Behavior, no abnormalities, correct? 312 00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:06,500 Yeah. 313 00:24:06,583 --> 00:24:08,083 RAYBURN: Her affect is appropriate. 314 00:24:08,166 --> 00:24:09,959 Her short, uh, long-term memory's intact, 315 00:24:10,041 --> 00:24:11,041 -correct? -Yeah. 316 00:24:11,125 --> 00:24:12,375 RAYBURN: Her insight is good. 317 00:24:12,458 --> 00:24:13,583 -Correct? -Yeah. 318 00:24:13,667 --> 00:24:14,917 RAYBURN: And you're now telling us 319 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,083 that she didn't know right from wrong 320 00:24:17,166 --> 00:24:18,458 at that same time? 321 00:24:18,542 --> 00:24:21,083 BREGGIN: Well, actually, she thought she was doing 322 00:24:21,166 --> 00:24:23,208 absolutely the right thing. 323 00:24:23,291 --> 00:24:24,834 RAYBURN: You would agree with me, though, 324 00:24:24,917 --> 00:24:29,458 that on July 10th into July 11th 2014, uh, 325 00:24:29,542 --> 00:24:31,500 the defendant is telling friends, 326 00:24:31,583 --> 00:24:35,417 specifically Sam Boardman, that Conrad is missing, 327 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:36,917 -correct? -BREGGIN: Yes. 328 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,667 RAYBURN: But at the same time, you would agree with me 329 00:24:38,750 --> 00:24:40,166 she's communicating with Conrad? 330 00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:41,542 BREGGIN: Yes. 331 00:24:41,625 --> 00:24:42,792 She's telling people he's missing, 332 00:24:42,875 --> 00:24:44,125 she doesn't know where he is. 333 00:24:44,208 --> 00:24:45,458 She's getting updates from the family. 334 00:24:45,542 --> 00:24:47,291 All while speaking to him, correct? 335 00:24:47,375 --> 00:24:52,208 Yes. It's very strange. I can't find a rational reason 336 00:24:52,291 --> 00:24:54,041 why she would ever have been doing this. 337 00:24:54,125 --> 00:24:57,208 I think it's part of a very confused, delusional state 338 00:24:57,291 --> 00:24:59,500 that-- Where she's coming in and out of, uh, 339 00:24:59,583 --> 00:25:01,083 "What's happening? What am I doing?" 340 00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:02,667 RAYBURN: How about the rational reason 341 00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:05,250 that she wanted to know how her friends would react 342 00:25:05,333 --> 00:25:07,291 when he killed himself? 343 00:25:07,375 --> 00:25:10,333 No. I can't imagine that would be motivating her 344 00:25:10,417 --> 00:25:15,041 to be opening up this horrible, bizarre activity 345 00:25:15,125 --> 00:25:17,291 she's involved in. I... 346 00:25:17,375 --> 00:25:18,709 I mean, you would expect her 347 00:25:18,792 --> 00:25:20,917 not to do anything like that. (CHUCKLES) 348 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,917 RAYBURN: But she's saying she's concerned for him, 349 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,000 while at the same time talking to him. 350 00:25:28,083 --> 00:25:29,875 Yeah. I think it's really crazy. 351 00:25:29,959 --> 00:25:34,166 And in fact, Sam does, I would suggest to you, 352 00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:36,875 she then shows concern. Correct? 353 00:25:36,959 --> 00:25:39,500 -Well, of course, yeah. -RAYBURN: Okay. 354 00:25:39,583 --> 00:25:45,125 Focusing now on July 12th into the 13th. 9:48 PM. 355 00:25:45,208 --> 00:25:47,709 To Sam: "I'm so fucking stupid. 356 00:25:47,792 --> 00:25:49,417 The generator he got the other day... 357 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:51,375 I think that he-- the noise I heard... 358 00:25:51,458 --> 00:25:54,041 I just looked it up; they emit carbon monoxide. 359 00:25:54,125 --> 00:25:55,875 I think he poisoned himself with it." 360 00:25:55,959 --> 00:25:57,625 And so it goes, correct? 361 00:25:59,125 --> 00:26:01,208 -That's actually a question. -BREGGIN: Yeah. Yeah. 362 00:26:01,291 --> 00:26:02,834 Okay. Now, you would agree with me, sir, 363 00:26:02,917 --> 00:26:05,542 that there were text messages between the defendant 364 00:26:05,625 --> 00:26:09,000 and Conrad Roy about exactly how he was gonna kill himself, 365 00:26:09,083 --> 00:26:10,625 -weren't there? -Yeah. Absolutely. 366 00:26:10,709 --> 00:26:12,917 Okay. So, her telling Sam, 367 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,500 "I think the noise that I heard, uh, I looked-- 368 00:26:17,583 --> 00:26:19,750 I think the generator he got today, 369 00:26:19,834 --> 00:26:22,125 I think that was the noise I heard. I looked it up. 370 00:26:22,208 --> 00:26:24,542 They can emit carbon monoxide." 371 00:26:24,625 --> 00:26:26,417 She already knew that, didn't she? 372 00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:28,000 -BREGGIN: Yes. -Okay. 373 00:26:29,625 --> 00:26:34,875 And now talking to Ally, she says, "Ha, ha, yeah. 374 00:26:34,959 --> 00:26:37,542 But I don't know; he's in a bad place right now," 375 00:26:37,625 --> 00:26:39,625 talking to Con-- about Conrad, correct? 376 00:26:39,709 --> 00:26:41,291 BREGGIN: Yes. 377 00:26:41,375 --> 00:26:42,750 RAYBURN: She's telling Ally he's in a bad place. 378 00:26:42,834 --> 00:26:44,750 He's dead, sir, at that point. 379 00:26:44,834 --> 00:26:47,250 Did you factor that in your opinion then? 380 00:26:47,333 --> 00:26:49,291 The fact that she knows he's dead, 381 00:26:49,375 --> 00:26:51,875 and in saying, "Ha, ha yeah. 382 00:26:51,959 --> 00:26:55,000 But I don't know; he's in a bad place right now." 383 00:26:55,083 --> 00:26:57,333 Did you factor that into your opinion? 384 00:26:58,417 --> 00:26:59,834 Yes, I factored every-- 385 00:26:59,917 --> 00:27:02,000 every bit of this into my opinion, yes. 386 00:27:02,083 --> 00:27:04,875 RAYBURN: So, she's telling one person one thing 387 00:27:04,959 --> 00:27:07,250 and other people other things, correct? 388 00:27:07,333 --> 00:27:09,041 BREGGIN: Yes, she is. 389 00:27:09,125 --> 00:27:10,667 RAYBURN: So now, the next morning, 390 00:27:10,750 --> 00:27:15,583 July 13th, 2014 at 9:02, her mother texts her, correct? 391 00:27:15,667 --> 00:27:16,875 BREGGIN: Yes. 392 00:27:16,959 --> 00:27:19,792 "Hi, Michelle. What are you doing?" Right? 393 00:27:19,875 --> 00:27:21,959 Michelle responds, "I'm at home." 394 00:27:22,041 --> 00:27:24,834 Mom says, "Doing what?" 395 00:27:24,917 --> 00:27:27,667 Michelle responds, "Nothing, ha, ha." 396 00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:30,208 Doesn't tell her mother anything about what's going on, 397 00:27:30,291 --> 00:27:31,917 -does she? -BREGGIN: No. 398 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,625 RAYBURN: She only tells her friends, 399 00:27:33,709 --> 00:27:35,125 -correct? -BREGGIN: Yes. 400 00:27:35,208 --> 00:27:37,709 RAYBURN: These same friends that she has been asking 401 00:27:37,792 --> 00:27:41,250 to hang out with her for the past year 402 00:27:41,333 --> 00:27:43,792 and who routinely don't hang out with her. 403 00:27:43,875 --> 00:27:45,166 Isn't that true? 404 00:27:45,250 --> 00:27:46,667 Oh, I don't know that. 405 00:27:46,750 --> 00:27:48,875 RAYBURN: Would you factor it into your opinion, 406 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,750 the fact that these-- the defendant wanted to hang out 407 00:27:51,834 --> 00:27:53,959 with her friends and her friends didn't have time with her 408 00:27:54,041 --> 00:27:57,542 that summer? Could that impact your opinion? 409 00:27:57,625 --> 00:28:01,542 BREGGIN: That it turned her into a crazy person 410 00:28:01,625 --> 00:28:03,333 who transformed her character, 411 00:28:03,417 --> 00:28:05,291 -became grandiose... -No. 412 00:28:05,375 --> 00:28:07,375 ...and encouraged a young man whom she loved 413 00:28:07,458 --> 00:28:10,834 and had been working with a-- again and again to-- 414 00:28:10,917 --> 00:28:13,166 to get better, that she turned on him 415 00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:15,667 and started to encourage him to die? 416 00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:17,166 No, I don't think so. 417 00:28:17,250 --> 00:28:20,542 She's psychotic, deluded. She's disturbed. 418 00:28:20,625 --> 00:28:24,834 Everything you're describing is why I concluded 419 00:28:24,917 --> 00:28:27,959 she's got an involuntary intoxication. 420 00:28:28,875 --> 00:28:30,000 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 421 00:28:30,083 --> 00:28:31,125 CAMERAMAN: All right, just coming in. 422 00:28:31,208 --> 00:28:32,959 -You ready? -Yep. 423 00:28:33,041 --> 00:28:34,709 NEWS ANCHOR: So far this morning we've been hearing from 424 00:28:34,792 --> 00:28:36,834 Dr. Peter Breggin, that paints a very different picture 425 00:28:36,917 --> 00:28:39,333 than what we saw last week in those messages. 426 00:28:39,417 --> 00:28:40,834 And the biggest question here now 427 00:28:40,917 --> 00:28:42,959 is will Michelle Carter testify? 428 00:28:43,041 --> 00:28:44,667 Are you gonna call Michelle to the stand tomorrow? 429 00:28:44,750 --> 00:28:47,041 Uh. I have no comment. We're going to proceed tomorrow 430 00:28:47,125 --> 00:28:49,250 with the continuation of the trial. 431 00:28:49,333 --> 00:28:51,375 BARRON: Part of the drama of this case 432 00:28:51,458 --> 00:28:54,375 was the adult world confronting what teenagers are like. 433 00:28:54,458 --> 00:28:58,417 All right, guys. Can you stop? You've already got her picture. 434 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:01,709 And I think for the parents it must be sort of impossible 435 00:29:01,792 --> 00:29:03,375 to understand what happened, 436 00:29:03,458 --> 00:29:06,875 'cause it's so far from what is, you know, 437 00:29:06,959 --> 00:29:08,750 acceptable human behavior, 438 00:29:08,834 --> 00:29:12,000 what she did in the last few weeks. 439 00:29:12,083 --> 00:29:15,917 And I think the biggest mystery of the story is not... 440 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,834 why Michelle Carter did what she did, 441 00:29:17,917 --> 00:29:19,709 but what Michelle Carter thought she was doing. 442 00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:24,583 JOHN SULER: What's really interesting about this case 443 00:29:24,667 --> 00:29:26,583 is that we have this very detailed record 444 00:29:26,667 --> 00:29:28,875 of what was said between them. 445 00:29:28,959 --> 00:29:31,917 This detailed record of their minds coming together 446 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,083 and interacting with each other. 447 00:29:34,166 --> 00:29:35,917 In the past we wouldn't have had that record. 448 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,166 All we would've had was a person commits suicide 449 00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:42,583 and we're all left wondering what happened. 450 00:29:42,667 --> 00:29:44,875 Are we talking about young psychopaths? 451 00:29:44,959 --> 00:29:46,208 Are we talking about 452 00:29:46,291 --> 00:29:48,250 narcissistic personality disorders, 453 00:29:48,333 --> 00:29:49,709 borderline disorders? 454 00:29:49,792 --> 00:29:52,750 Are we just talking about young, troubled kids 455 00:29:52,834 --> 00:29:56,333 who don't have a well-developed frontal cortex 456 00:29:56,417 --> 00:29:58,291 and just don't have the self-awareness 457 00:29:58,375 --> 00:30:00,625 and the ability to see what they're doing? 458 00:30:00,709 --> 00:30:03,583 But now because we have this record of this dialogue 459 00:30:03,667 --> 00:30:06,291 between them, we have this opportunity to see 460 00:30:06,375 --> 00:30:08,625 what was going on inside their minds, 461 00:30:08,709 --> 00:30:12,250 inside that thought process between the two of them. 462 00:30:15,291 --> 00:30:16,375 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 463 00:30:41,083 --> 00:30:42,667 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 464 00:30:42,750 --> 00:30:44,667 BARRON: The idea that this was a case 465 00:30:44,750 --> 00:30:46,250 where a girlfriend killed a boyfriend 466 00:30:46,333 --> 00:30:47,583 is really weird. 467 00:30:47,667 --> 00:30:49,417 The way that I read it is... 468 00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:52,500 the relationship was much more Michelle's fantasy 469 00:30:52,583 --> 00:30:55,917 and Michelle's idea than it was Conrad's. 470 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,583 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 471 00:30:57,667 --> 00:31:01,709 BARRON: Conrad was alternately kind of mean to her, 472 00:31:01,792 --> 00:31:03,500 kind of sweet to her... 473 00:31:03,583 --> 00:31:06,750 kind of negging her for most of the relationship. 474 00:31:07,917 --> 00:31:09,333 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 475 00:31:09,417 --> 00:31:11,500 They really weirdly connected 476 00:31:11,583 --> 00:31:13,166 on this slightly mean, 477 00:31:13,250 --> 00:31:15,667 slightly competitive level that they both had. 478 00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:17,291 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 479 00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:21,208 BARRON: They had this kind of game 480 00:31:21,291 --> 00:31:24,166 -that they would play together. -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 481 00:31:26,834 --> 00:31:28,458 BARRON: They would finish each other's sentences, 482 00:31:28,542 --> 00:31:30,333 they would play weird word games 483 00:31:30,417 --> 00:31:31,834 and free associations. 484 00:31:31,917 --> 00:31:33,333 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 485 00:31:43,166 --> 00:31:45,458 BARRON: And it's, like, kind of sexy, kind of weird, 486 00:31:45,542 --> 00:31:47,792 kind of exciting if you're a teenage boy. 487 00:31:49,458 --> 00:31:50,792 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 488 00:31:50,875 --> 00:31:52,458 BARRON: They both sort of liked this kind of 489 00:31:52,542 --> 00:31:54,500 brinkmanship with each other. 490 00:31:55,417 --> 00:31:56,500 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 491 00:32:01,959 --> 00:32:03,709 BARRON: They talked a lot about 492 00:32:03,792 --> 00:32:06,750 "Let's meet, let's hang out. When are we going to hang out?" 493 00:32:06,834 --> 00:32:08,667 They'd come to the brink of seeing each other 494 00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:10,250 and then they'd always back away. 495 00:32:10,333 --> 00:32:13,250 So, their whole relationship was the text messages. 496 00:32:13,333 --> 00:32:14,542 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 497 00:32:16,875 --> 00:32:19,792 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS AND TYPING SOUNDS) 498 00:32:21,667 --> 00:32:25,375 MARIN COGAN: The fact that we now all live our lives 499 00:32:25,458 --> 00:32:27,917 via smart phones 500 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,583 is completely central to this case. 501 00:32:31,667 --> 00:32:35,166 It's every parent's worst nightmare. 502 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:40,250 You have two teenagers connecting in the most 503 00:32:40,333 --> 00:32:42,583 cataclysmic possible way. 504 00:32:44,875 --> 00:32:46,500 Conrad, he found someone 505 00:32:46,583 --> 00:32:49,959 who he could confide these thoughts in. 506 00:32:50,041 --> 00:32:56,291 And Michelle found this access to immediate sort of intimacy. 507 00:32:56,375 --> 00:32:58,166 (typing sounds) 508 00:32:58,250 --> 00:33:00,667 SULER: When people are communicating through text, 509 00:33:00,750 --> 00:33:02,709 strange things can start to happen. 510 00:33:02,792 --> 00:33:05,792 You don't necessarily experience the other person 511 00:33:05,875 --> 00:33:07,208 as another person. 512 00:33:07,291 --> 00:33:09,542 You can't see them, you can't hear them, 513 00:33:09,625 --> 00:33:11,875 you can't see their body language. 514 00:33:13,208 --> 00:33:16,291 You have this voice with you all day long 515 00:33:16,375 --> 00:33:20,792 that will suddenly pop up and say things to you. 516 00:33:20,875 --> 00:33:23,166 I think in some ways people experience that 517 00:33:23,250 --> 00:33:24,709 as a voice in their head, 518 00:33:24,792 --> 00:33:27,583 almost as if it's like an internal hallucination. 519 00:33:29,291 --> 00:33:31,667 You're really interacting with these characters 520 00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:35,709 inside your mind without really understanding, 521 00:33:35,792 --> 00:33:37,542 on a more conscious, rational level, 522 00:33:37,625 --> 00:33:40,250 these text messages are coming from another person 523 00:33:40,333 --> 00:33:42,583 with their own life and their own thoughts 524 00:33:42,667 --> 00:33:43,917 and their own feelings. 525 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,458 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 526 00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:51,875 BARRON: In some ways, 527 00:33:51,959 --> 00:33:54,166 the big moral failing from Michelle 528 00:33:54,250 --> 00:33:56,875 has to do with an eerie inability 529 00:33:56,959 --> 00:33:59,000 to fully apprehend reality. 530 00:33:59,083 --> 00:34:00,583 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 531 00:34:19,458 --> 00:34:21,875 BARRON: There's one level of the conversation 532 00:34:21,959 --> 00:34:25,583 that is a kid that's gonna kill himself. 533 00:34:25,667 --> 00:34:26,959 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 534 00:34:27,041 --> 00:34:28,375 BARRON: And then there's another level 535 00:34:28,458 --> 00:34:30,792 that's a romantic fantasy. 536 00:34:30,875 --> 00:34:32,291 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 537 00:35:18,667 --> 00:35:21,583 BARRON: There is an amazing intensity to the messages 538 00:35:21,667 --> 00:35:24,000 that's totally incommensurate with the relationship 539 00:35:24,083 --> 00:35:26,000 -they had before. -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 540 00:35:28,875 --> 00:35:30,125 BARRON: And what I found is that 541 00:35:30,208 --> 00:35:32,125 there was all of these references 542 00:35:32,208 --> 00:35:35,208 to different TV shows, to movies, to songs... 543 00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:40,667 But by far, by far the most common source 544 00:35:40,750 --> 00:35:43,375 for that kind of language was Glee. 545 00:35:45,208 --> 00:35:49,083 Glee is a TV show that is set in an American high school 546 00:35:49,166 --> 00:35:53,417 and the stars are Lea Michele and Cory Monteith, 547 00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:55,083 who are not only the stars of the show 548 00:35:55,166 --> 00:35:56,875 but were a couple in real life. 549 00:35:56,959 --> 00:36:00,709 And Michelle was obsessed with Lea Michele. 550 00:36:03,041 --> 00:36:05,083 So, often when she was writing to Conrad 551 00:36:05,166 --> 00:36:06,625 or writing about Conrad, 552 00:36:06,709 --> 00:36:11,625 she would borrow from text that was in this TV show. 553 00:36:11,709 --> 00:36:14,917 You are my first love. 554 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:21,375 And I want more than anything for you to be my last. 555 00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:25,083 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 556 00:36:27,291 --> 00:36:29,417 And I think she connected with Lea Michele 557 00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:33,333 on kind of a profound level that went beyond 558 00:36:33,417 --> 00:36:37,166 what a normal teen identifying with a star... 559 00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:39,333 you know, might feel like. 560 00:36:39,417 --> 00:36:42,417 A star of the popular show Glee found dead 561 00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:45,166 in his hotel room in Vancouver. The body... 562 00:36:45,250 --> 00:36:49,625 BARRON: In 2013, Cory Monteith overdosed in a hotel room 563 00:36:49,709 --> 00:36:50,792 and died. 564 00:36:50,875 --> 00:36:52,667 This was a year, basically, to the day, 565 00:36:52,750 --> 00:36:54,208 before Conrad died. 566 00:36:54,291 --> 00:36:56,834 The cast of Glee puts on a tribute episode. 567 00:36:56,917 --> 00:37:01,000 (SINGING) ♪ When the rain is blowing in your face ♪ 568 00:37:01,083 --> 00:37:04,000 Lea Michele sings a song in his honor 569 00:37:04,083 --> 00:37:05,667 and everyone's devastated 570 00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:08,125 because the character has died in the show. 571 00:37:08,208 --> 00:37:11,375 So, it's an incredibly eerie piece of television, because... 572 00:37:11,458 --> 00:37:14,750 you know that this actual actor OD'd in a hotel 573 00:37:14,834 --> 00:37:17,834 somewhere in Canada, but in the world of the show, 574 00:37:17,917 --> 00:37:20,542 this football quarterback has died tragically 575 00:37:20,625 --> 00:37:23,458 and everyone is singing pop songs to mourn him. 576 00:37:24,625 --> 00:37:26,000 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 577 00:37:26,083 --> 00:37:27,750 BARRON: And Michelle introduces that to Conrad 578 00:37:27,834 --> 00:37:29,458 in October 2013. 579 00:37:32,125 --> 00:37:35,041 Michelle says, "I just want you to know how much I love you 580 00:37:35,125 --> 00:37:37,250 and it really made me think of what it would be like 581 00:37:37,333 --> 00:37:38,542 if you weren't here." 582 00:37:38,625 --> 00:37:40,667 Totally out of the blue from what was happening. 583 00:37:40,750 --> 00:37:41,959 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 584 00:37:45,709 --> 00:37:47,250 BARRON: It's sort of the first moment 585 00:37:47,333 --> 00:37:48,875 where you realize that Michelle 586 00:37:48,959 --> 00:37:50,917 has, like, a completely other story 587 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,000 that's going on that has nothing to do with Conrad specifically. 588 00:37:54,083 --> 00:37:55,333 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 589 00:37:55,417 --> 00:37:56,959 BARRON: But the idea that 590 00:37:57,041 --> 00:37:59,417 she would be the person in Glee 591 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:01,917 who had a boyfriend who was the quarterback 592 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,750 who had sort of tragically died, 593 00:38:03,834 --> 00:38:07,208 I think was kind of more real to her 594 00:38:07,291 --> 00:38:09,000 than it probably is to most people. 595 00:38:09,917 --> 00:38:11,458 I had it all planned out. 596 00:38:12,083 --> 00:38:13,166 Now what? 597 00:38:15,208 --> 00:38:17,625 I don't know, something different. 598 00:38:17,709 --> 00:38:19,250 Maybe something better. 599 00:38:19,333 --> 00:38:21,375 I just-- I don't think that that's possible. 600 00:38:23,333 --> 00:38:24,750 He was my person. 601 00:38:24,834 --> 00:38:27,208 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 602 00:38:27,291 --> 00:38:28,500 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 603 00:38:31,709 --> 00:38:34,333 BARRON: One of the eerie parts of the text messages 604 00:38:34,417 --> 00:38:36,208 that Michelle sent to her friends 605 00:38:36,291 --> 00:38:37,750 where she quotes from Lea Michele, 606 00:38:37,834 --> 00:38:40,458 is that they don't all come from Glee; 607 00:38:40,542 --> 00:38:43,583 they come from interviews that the real actress is giving 608 00:38:43,667 --> 00:38:48,291 about her real dead boyfriend to real talk show hosts. 609 00:38:48,375 --> 00:38:50,750 I literally lived every day of my life 610 00:38:50,834 --> 00:38:53,709 feeling like the luckiest girl in the whole world. 611 00:38:53,792 --> 00:38:56,583 I just-- I just thought he was the greatest man. 612 00:38:56,667 --> 00:38:57,875 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 613 00:39:01,709 --> 00:39:03,917 This is weird. This is really weird. 614 00:39:08,041 --> 00:39:09,917 BARRON: I think it translates to that Michelle 615 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,542 had little if any idea of who she was. 616 00:39:13,625 --> 00:39:17,291 That she identified extremely strongly 617 00:39:17,375 --> 00:39:20,125 with this other world, this other life. 618 00:39:22,917 --> 00:39:24,083 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 619 00:39:38,083 --> 00:39:41,542 BARRON: Alice was a teammate of Michelle's 620 00:39:41,625 --> 00:39:46,750 on a travel softball team in the spring of 2012. 621 00:39:46,834 --> 00:39:49,875 They instantly became incredibly close. 622 00:39:49,959 --> 00:39:53,000 They went to, uh, each other's houses, 623 00:39:53,083 --> 00:39:56,083 they slept over, they took a team trip to Montreal 624 00:39:56,166 --> 00:39:58,667 and when other, uh, kids on the team 625 00:39:58,750 --> 00:40:00,250 were going out to eat as a group, 626 00:40:00,333 --> 00:40:02,041 they would kind of sneak off and eat together, 627 00:40:02,125 --> 00:40:05,041 -just the two of them. -(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 628 00:40:05,125 --> 00:40:07,583 It was an intense teen friendship 629 00:40:07,667 --> 00:40:10,291 that was almost like a love affair for Michelle. 630 00:40:10,375 --> 00:40:12,458 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 631 00:40:32,417 --> 00:40:33,792 BARRON: Kind of abruptly, 632 00:40:33,875 --> 00:40:35,709 right around the time that Michelle met Conrad, 633 00:40:35,792 --> 00:40:37,917 Alice cut off contact with her. 634 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,125 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 635 00:40:41,792 --> 00:40:46,917 And in 2014, in the summer... 636 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,792 Michelle, for some reason, starts really missing Alice. 637 00:40:51,875 --> 00:40:54,709 And this is all happening right around the time 638 00:40:54,792 --> 00:40:56,792 that Conrad is really suicidal. 639 00:40:56,875 --> 00:40:58,417 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 640 00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:00,792 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 641 00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:05,792 BARRON: It seems to me that 642 00:41:05,875 --> 00:41:09,375 a lot of the emotional logic of the case 643 00:41:09,458 --> 00:41:11,625 really has more to do with the friendship with Alice 644 00:41:11,709 --> 00:41:14,375 than it has to do with the relationship with Conrad. 645 00:41:14,458 --> 00:41:15,709 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 646 00:41:22,792 --> 00:41:24,875 BARRON: I called Alice and I said, you know, 647 00:41:24,959 --> 00:41:26,834 "I want to interview you because it sounds like 648 00:41:26,917 --> 00:41:28,375 Michelle was in love with you." 649 00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:30,917 And I met Alice and her mother. 650 00:41:33,041 --> 00:41:34,625 The reason they were meeting me 651 00:41:34,709 --> 00:41:37,417 was to refute exactly that story. 652 00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:40,500 So, they were meeting to say, 653 00:41:40,583 --> 00:41:41,959 "Michelle is a sociopath, 654 00:41:42,041 --> 00:41:44,000 and she made this all up. There was never 655 00:41:44,083 --> 00:41:45,750 anything physical about the relationship." 656 00:41:47,583 --> 00:41:49,667 And if I didn't feel for Michelle 657 00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:51,834 in any moment before that, 658 00:41:51,917 --> 00:41:53,917 in that moment I felt... 659 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,125 a sympathy for how alone she was. 660 00:41:59,041 --> 00:42:01,959 She had this desire for things to be more intense, 661 00:42:02,041 --> 00:42:04,291 more like stories than they really were. 662 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,458 She didn't live in reality; 663 00:42:16,542 --> 00:42:22,709 like, she lived in some kind of fantasy... I think. 664 00:42:22,792 --> 00:42:27,500 But she's just not a well person, so... 665 00:42:27,583 --> 00:42:32,166 How can you be that angry or how can you be that... 666 00:42:36,125 --> 00:42:37,291 when someone is not... 667 00:42:38,959 --> 00:42:40,875 She's not well. 668 00:42:40,959 --> 00:42:43,291 That's all I say. She's not well. 669 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,959 (CRICKETS CHIRPING) 670 00:43:01,959 --> 00:43:03,125 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 671 00:43:09,291 --> 00:43:10,709 BARRON: The pattern that would happen 672 00:43:10,792 --> 00:43:12,417 in the last few weeks of Conrad's life 673 00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:15,792 is Conrad would say, "I'm gonna do it tonight." 674 00:43:15,875 --> 00:43:18,709 Then the next morning he would be alive. 675 00:43:18,792 --> 00:43:20,625 Then a few days later he would say, 676 00:43:20,709 --> 00:43:22,166 "Okay, I'm ready to do it tonight. 677 00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:23,875 I'm gonna do it," and then the next morning, 678 00:43:23,959 --> 00:43:25,750 he would be alive. 679 00:43:25,834 --> 00:43:27,166 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 680 00:43:28,333 --> 00:43:30,917 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 681 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,333 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 682 00:43:55,041 --> 00:43:58,000 BARRON: July 12th, when Conrad dies, 683 00:43:58,083 --> 00:44:00,125 there's a kind of reality flicker, 684 00:44:00,208 --> 00:44:05,083 where it's not entirely clear that it's actually happened. 685 00:44:05,166 --> 00:44:06,875 (PHONE RINGING) 686 00:44:08,542 --> 00:44:09,709 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 687 00:44:18,750 --> 00:44:20,542 BARRON: I'll tell you something really weird. 688 00:44:20,625 --> 00:44:23,417 Five days before Conrad died, Michelle goes to a movie theater 689 00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:25,500 and sees The Fault in Our Stars. 690 00:44:25,583 --> 00:44:27,709 And at the climax of the movie, 691 00:44:28,667 --> 00:44:30,667 the boy, Gus, 692 00:44:30,750 --> 00:44:34,041 is dying in a gas station in a Jeep. 693 00:44:34,125 --> 00:44:37,083 And he calls his girlfriend for help. 694 00:44:38,458 --> 00:44:39,917 Augustus. 695 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,750 GUS: Hazel Grace. 696 00:44:41,834 --> 00:44:45,709 Hi. Oh, my God, hi. Hi. I love you. 697 00:44:45,792 --> 00:44:47,250 BARRON: And she calls the police 698 00:44:47,333 --> 00:44:49,709 and he gets into an ambulance. 699 00:44:49,792 --> 00:44:52,208 So, it doesn't seem implausible to me 700 00:44:52,291 --> 00:44:56,458 that there were other stories in Michelle's mind 701 00:44:56,542 --> 00:44:58,917 that reminded her of what was happening at that moment. 702 00:45:01,250 --> 00:45:05,208 And I think the question is whether or not 703 00:45:05,291 --> 00:45:08,000 she was kind of writing some story in her head 704 00:45:08,083 --> 00:45:09,834 or writing some movie that for some reason 705 00:45:09,917 --> 00:45:13,083 had to end with him dying. 706 00:45:13,166 --> 00:45:17,667 Or whether she literally has no idea what she's done. 707 00:45:18,750 --> 00:45:19,834 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 708 00:45:23,291 --> 00:45:28,375 BARRON: What is obvious to me is that when... 709 00:45:28,458 --> 00:45:30,250 he really needed someone 710 00:45:30,333 --> 00:45:32,875 to understand how serious it was, 711 00:45:32,959 --> 00:45:38,583 and to go over his head to the cops, to his mother, 712 00:45:38,667 --> 00:45:40,375 she wasn't that person. 713 00:45:40,458 --> 00:45:45,083 And that's her kind of tragic failing. 714 00:45:47,125 --> 00:45:51,834 She, who wanted so badly to have a best friend 715 00:45:51,917 --> 00:45:54,709 or someone she could sort of have this intense, 716 00:45:54,792 --> 00:45:56,959 dyadic affair with, 717 00:45:57,041 --> 00:45:58,583 had the opportunity to do that 718 00:45:58,667 --> 00:46:02,375 with this kid who that night needed someone 719 00:46:02,458 --> 00:46:06,417 to be his friend and to say, "You are being fucking crazy 720 00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:09,709 and I'm calling the police." And um... 721 00:46:09,792 --> 00:46:11,000 she didn't do it. 722 00:46:15,333 --> 00:46:16,500 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 723 00:46:38,041 --> 00:46:39,208 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 724 00:46:50,375 --> 00:46:52,250 RAYBURN: "His death is my fault. 725 00:46:52,333 --> 00:46:54,750 Like, honestly, I could've stopped him. 726 00:46:54,834 --> 00:46:57,625 I was on the phone with him and he got out of the car 727 00:46:57,709 --> 00:47:00,875 because it was working. And he got scared 728 00:47:00,959 --> 00:47:04,041 and I fucking told him to get back in, Sam, 729 00:47:04,125 --> 00:47:07,792 because I knew he would do it all over again the next day. 730 00:47:07,875 --> 00:47:09,917 And I couldn't have him live that way, 731 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:11,500 the way he was living, anymore. 732 00:47:11,583 --> 00:47:15,959 I couldn't do it. I wouldn't let him." 733 00:47:16,041 --> 00:47:17,709 Those were her words, Your Honor. 734 00:47:17,792 --> 00:47:21,458 She says to her friend, "If I had done something, 735 00:47:21,542 --> 00:47:24,917 if I had just told him that I loved him, 736 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,166 he would still be alive." 737 00:47:27,250 --> 00:47:29,125 CATALDO: Your Honor, this is a suicide, 738 00:47:29,208 --> 00:47:31,500 as I said in my opening statement, and I say now. 739 00:47:31,583 --> 00:47:35,375 What we're dealing with is a suicide and not a homicide. 740 00:47:35,458 --> 00:47:37,959 And this is the government's burden 741 00:47:38,041 --> 00:47:40,291 to prove that it was a homicide, 742 00:47:40,375 --> 00:47:42,458 a manslaughter under the elements. 743 00:47:42,542 --> 00:47:45,000 Proof, not by a probable cause, 744 00:47:45,083 --> 00:47:46,500 not by clear and convincing evidence, 745 00:47:46,583 --> 00:47:49,625 but proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 746 00:47:49,709 --> 00:47:53,333 If you go through and you look at who actually created 747 00:47:53,417 --> 00:47:55,583 this suicidal situation, 748 00:47:55,667 --> 00:47:58,542 he brought her, with all of her baggage, 749 00:47:58,625 --> 00:48:01,709 along for this sad journey of his 750 00:48:01,792 --> 00:48:03,875 to eventually take his own life. 751 00:48:03,959 --> 00:48:05,375 RAYBURN: Despite his issues, 752 00:48:05,458 --> 00:48:08,417 Conrad Roy was a very self-aware young man. 753 00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:11,083 He knew when he needed help. 754 00:48:11,166 --> 00:48:13,291 You know what he said was the one reason 755 00:48:13,375 --> 00:48:16,792 that he wanted to live? His family. 756 00:48:16,875 --> 00:48:19,667 Before the defendant got her hooks into him 757 00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:24,458 and started telling him to die every day, he was hopeful. 758 00:48:24,542 --> 00:48:28,041 CATALDO: This is a gentleman who was sadly subjected 759 00:48:28,125 --> 00:48:29,792 to domestic violence. 760 00:48:29,875 --> 00:48:33,959 In fact, he tells that he had daily intrusive thoughts 761 00:48:34,041 --> 00:48:35,792 of witnessing domestic violence. 762 00:48:35,875 --> 00:48:38,083 Those are his words he's telling his therapist 763 00:48:38,166 --> 00:48:39,917 in the counselors in the records, Your Honor. 764 00:48:40,041 --> 00:48:42,750 RAYBURN: During the days leading up to this, Your Honor, 765 00:48:42,834 --> 00:48:47,166 he told her, "I'm scared. I don't have it in me. 766 00:48:47,250 --> 00:48:50,000 Another day wouldn't hurt." 767 00:48:50,083 --> 00:48:53,417 Every time he came up with an excuse not to do it, 768 00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:55,834 she kicked his feet out right from under him 769 00:48:55,917 --> 00:48:57,917 and told him why it didn't matter, 770 00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,959 why he still needed to die. 771 00:49:00,041 --> 00:49:03,750 Mr. Roy himself stated to Michelle Carter, 772 00:49:03,834 --> 00:49:05,125 "I want to die." 773 00:49:05,208 --> 00:49:08,250 Straight up. Those words. "I want to die." 774 00:49:08,333 --> 00:49:11,250 To turn around and say she's bullying him 775 00:49:11,333 --> 00:49:14,417 or she got him to do something he didn't want to do, 776 00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:17,750 he's asking her, "You want to help?" 777 00:49:17,834 --> 00:49:20,583 His words. "You want to help?" 778 00:49:20,667 --> 00:49:23,208 He doesn't tell her, "Stop this. 779 00:49:23,291 --> 00:49:27,583 Don't call me, lose my number, stop texting me, block call," 780 00:49:27,667 --> 00:49:30,959 nothing of the like. He continues to use her 781 00:49:31,041 --> 00:49:34,291 for his support to carry out his plan. 782 00:49:34,375 --> 00:49:36,041 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 783 00:49:39,250 --> 00:49:41,041 CATALDO: He goes down to K-mart. 784 00:49:41,125 --> 00:49:44,750 He doesn't do a U-turn. Not seeking any help. 785 00:49:44,834 --> 00:49:48,166 Police department down the road a half a mile. 786 00:49:48,250 --> 00:49:51,250 He has his cell phone with him. What's he do? 787 00:49:51,333 --> 00:49:52,542 He actually-- In the phone records, 788 00:49:52,625 --> 00:49:53,959 he calls Michelle Carter. 789 00:49:54,041 --> 00:49:55,792 The first phone call right there, he calls her. 790 00:49:55,875 --> 00:49:58,417 He doesn't call 911. Doesn't call anybody else, 791 00:49:58,500 --> 00:49:59,500 he calls Michelle. 792 00:49:59,583 --> 00:50:01,083 I suggest why? Because he knows 793 00:50:01,166 --> 00:50:04,333 that she is encouraging and supporting his plan. 794 00:50:04,417 --> 00:50:06,291 (PHONE RINGING) 795 00:50:07,709 --> 00:50:09,709 RAYBURN: She created the harm, Your Honor, 796 00:50:09,792 --> 00:50:12,166 when she told him to get back in the car. 797 00:50:12,250 --> 00:50:13,417 (PHONE RINGING) 798 00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:16,000 He was scared. She knows he's gonna die 799 00:50:16,083 --> 00:50:19,667 and she says, "I could've done something to stop it, 800 00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:23,709 and if I had he would still be alive today." 801 00:50:23,792 --> 00:50:27,667 She-- By her own admission, she caused his death. 802 00:50:27,750 --> 00:50:31,875 She knew at that moment he did not want to die. 803 00:50:31,959 --> 00:50:36,000 The Commonwealth is conflating this idea of "he was scared" 804 00:50:36,083 --> 00:50:38,166 as "he didn't want to do it." 805 00:50:38,250 --> 00:50:40,834 That's what they're doing; they're saying he-- he told-- 806 00:50:40,917 --> 00:50:44,166 Michelle told a friend that Conrad got out of the car 807 00:50:44,250 --> 00:50:46,166 and he was scared because it was working. 808 00:50:46,250 --> 00:50:48,333 So, Conrad apparently knew it was working 809 00:50:48,417 --> 00:50:50,000 and yet chose to get back in. 810 00:50:50,083 --> 00:50:51,959 But because he was scared or afraid, 811 00:50:52,041 --> 00:50:54,291 they want to basically replace that word, 812 00:50:54,375 --> 00:50:57,667 that somehow, therefore, after that, 813 00:50:57,750 --> 00:51:01,417 by going back in the car, that wasn't his own decision. 814 00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:03,458 He chose to get in that car. 815 00:51:03,542 --> 00:51:05,792 He chose to breathe in the fumes. 816 00:51:05,875 --> 00:51:07,458 There's no evidence that Michelle Carter 817 00:51:07,542 --> 00:51:11,875 has any physical actions whatsoever in this case. 818 00:51:11,959 --> 00:51:15,166 It was all of his physical activity. 819 00:51:15,250 --> 00:51:17,917 Did he get back in the car? Yes. 820 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,959 But she was the cause of that, Your Honor; 821 00:51:20,041 --> 00:51:21,750 she ordered him back in that car 822 00:51:21,834 --> 00:51:23,542 knowing what would happen. 823 00:51:23,625 --> 00:51:25,417 It's a new day and age, Your Honor. 824 00:51:25,500 --> 00:51:27,750 And the phones that we have now 825 00:51:27,834 --> 00:51:30,834 allow you to be virtually present with somebody. 826 00:51:30,917 --> 00:51:34,834 People fall in love on the Internet and via text. 827 00:51:34,917 --> 00:51:38,458 People bully via text and the Internet. 828 00:51:38,542 --> 00:51:42,750 And you can encourage someone to die via text 829 00:51:42,834 --> 00:51:46,291 and you can commit a crime via text. 830 00:51:46,375 --> 00:51:49,583 She absolutely knew what she was doing. 831 00:51:49,667 --> 00:51:54,166 She absolutely knew it was wrong and she absolutely 832 00:51:54,250 --> 00:51:56,542 caused the death of this 18-year-old boy. 833 00:51:56,625 --> 00:51:58,750 And I ask you to find her guilty. 834 00:51:58,834 --> 00:52:00,959 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 835 00:52:13,083 --> 00:52:15,625 This world is sick today, in my opinion. 836 00:52:15,709 --> 00:52:18,000 No one has any morals. 837 00:52:18,083 --> 00:52:20,000 Lack of character. 838 00:52:20,083 --> 00:52:23,333 Uh. I just find it-- I just find it very troubling today. 839 00:52:23,417 --> 00:52:25,667 Because the right thing to do would've been for her 840 00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:27,583 to go get him help. 841 00:52:27,667 --> 00:52:30,792 He wanted to get out of the car, I believe. He did get out. 842 00:52:30,875 --> 00:52:35,000 She told him to get back in, quote, unquote, and do it. 843 00:52:35,083 --> 00:52:38,208 I'm sorry but she-- she deserves manslaughter. 844 00:52:38,291 --> 00:52:39,667 Absolutely. 845 00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:42,375 I honestly think it was foul what she did. 846 00:52:42,458 --> 00:52:44,125 She really shouldn't have done that. 847 00:52:44,208 --> 00:52:45,583 I mean, if you really love somebody 848 00:52:45,667 --> 00:52:47,458 you don't encourage them to kill themselves. 849 00:52:47,542 --> 00:52:49,458 That's just-- That's absolutely crazy. 850 00:52:49,542 --> 00:52:51,166 -It's kind of like murder. -So, it's-- 851 00:52:51,250 --> 00:52:53,208 it's basically murder, is how I see it in my eyes. 852 00:52:53,291 --> 00:52:54,750 It's basically murder. 853 00:52:54,834 --> 00:52:57,667 She was pretty much saying, "Just do it." 854 00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:59,417 WOMAN: But there's nothing illegal about that. 855 00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:01,041 And then-- And then didn't he stop, 856 00:53:01,125 --> 00:53:02,583 and then she said, "What are you doing? 857 00:53:02,667 --> 00:53:05,083 Get back in the car. You already have it all set up. 858 00:53:05,166 --> 00:53:07,125 You know, just end it already." 859 00:53:07,208 --> 00:53:08,583 WOMAN: Wow. 860 00:53:08,667 --> 00:53:10,667 But that's more of a moral thing, I think. 861 00:53:10,750 --> 00:53:12,417 But there's nothing illegal about it. 862 00:53:12,500 --> 00:53:14,792 -No, there's actually nothing wrong with it. -No, no. 863 00:53:14,875 --> 00:53:16,750 -She's not guilty. She didn't do anything illegal. -No. I wouldn't say that 864 00:53:16,834 --> 00:53:18,417 -she didn't... -What she did was wrong, 865 00:53:18,500 --> 00:53:20,208 -but it's not illegal. -That's like me telling you 866 00:53:20,291 --> 00:53:22,333 to jump off a bridge. If you jump off it, is it my fault? 867 00:53:22,417 --> 00:53:23,917 MAN: Yeah. 868 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,500 She would've said to him, "Jump-- Jump over the bridge." 869 00:53:26,583 --> 00:53:28,500 He would've done it, so therefore it's-- 870 00:53:28,583 --> 00:53:30,500 it is her fault. 871 00:53:30,583 --> 00:53:33,583 MAN: How can this woman be held responsible for something that 872 00:53:33,667 --> 00:53:35,083 she in essence did not do 873 00:53:35,166 --> 00:53:37,625 and he had free will over his actions? 874 00:53:37,709 --> 00:53:39,291 It's mind boggling to me. 875 00:53:39,375 --> 00:53:41,917 If she was telling him to rob a bank and he robbed a bank 876 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,375 is she responsible for this when he went in and-- 877 00:53:45,458 --> 00:53:48,333 and did those actions voluntarily? I-- I don't know. 878 00:53:48,417 --> 00:53:51,333 I just don't see how you can, uh, punish this girl 879 00:53:51,417 --> 00:53:53,542 the rest of her life for this. 880 00:53:53,625 --> 00:53:57,041 My wife and I talk about this and, you know, 881 00:53:57,125 --> 00:54:00,208 she thinks in one direction and I think in the other. 882 00:54:00,291 --> 00:54:02,417 That's 'cause we're married, go figure. 883 00:54:02,500 --> 00:54:06,166 She thinks it's more the responsibility of the victim 884 00:54:06,250 --> 00:54:10,166 than the responsibility of the-- the young lady, you know? 885 00:54:10,250 --> 00:54:12,417 Uh. And I can see her point. 886 00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:19,542 I think it was more immoral or, uh, unethical, you know, 887 00:54:19,625 --> 00:54:21,792 to not report that to somebody. 888 00:54:21,875 --> 00:54:24,041 I don't know. I guess it's on the judge, 889 00:54:24,125 --> 00:54:27,083 how he's gonna-- how he's gonna rule it. 890 00:54:27,166 --> 00:54:30,959 Certainly wouldn't want to date her next. (CHUCKLES) 891 00:54:32,041 --> 00:54:34,000 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 892 00:54:37,166 --> 00:54:38,375 MIKE MONTECALVO: Breaking news: 893 00:54:38,458 --> 00:54:40,000 The judge has reached a verdict 894 00:54:40,083 --> 00:54:41,750 in the Michelle Carter manslaughter trial. 895 00:54:41,834 --> 00:54:44,792 NEWS ANCHOR: This is a highly anticipated decision 896 00:54:44,875 --> 00:54:46,625 of whether Michelle Carter is guilty 897 00:54:46,709 --> 00:54:49,458 of involuntary manslaughter in her boyfriend, 898 00:54:49,542 --> 00:54:51,291 Conrad Roy's death. 899 00:54:51,375 --> 00:54:52,959 OFFICER 1: Come on, get out of there. 900 00:54:53,041 --> 00:54:54,750 -OFFICER 2: Come on. -OFFICER 1: Get out of there. 901 00:54:54,834 --> 00:54:56,250 REPORTER: Judge Lawrence Moniz 902 00:54:56,333 --> 00:54:58,500 took just two days to decide this. 903 00:54:58,583 --> 00:55:00,583 He will announce it at 11:00 AM. 904 00:55:02,875 --> 00:55:04,333 (CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING) 905 00:55:06,375 --> 00:55:07,792 REPORTER 2: Michelle Carter's fate 906 00:55:07,875 --> 00:55:09,542 now in the hands of the judge, 907 00:55:09,625 --> 00:55:11,458 who will render the ultimate verdict. 908 00:55:11,542 --> 00:55:13,917 REPORTER 3: And at the center of this trial, 909 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:18,041 whether it's a crime to tell someone to commit suicide. 910 00:55:19,041 --> 00:55:20,458 Good afternoon, everyone. 911 00:55:20,542 --> 00:55:22,667 COURTROOM OCCUPANTS: Good afternoon, Your Honor. 912 00:55:24,583 --> 00:55:26,834 JUDGE MONIZ: The law does not require 913 00:55:26,917 --> 00:55:29,709 that any explanation as to a verdict be given. 914 00:55:31,375 --> 00:55:36,083 Nonetheless, (CLEARS THROAT) I am of the opinion 915 00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:42,583 that some explanation of my verdicts is warranted. 916 00:55:42,667 --> 00:55:45,750 I have essentially divided the evidence in this case 917 00:55:45,834 --> 00:55:47,583 into three components. 918 00:55:48,709 --> 00:55:50,333 The first component 919 00:55:50,417 --> 00:55:56,542 comprises roughly the period of June 29th, 2014 920 00:55:56,625 --> 00:55:58,875 through the ending of the text messages 921 00:55:58,959 --> 00:56:05,959 between Miss Carter and Mr. Roy on or about July 12th, 2014. 922 00:56:07,291 --> 00:56:11,875 The second period commences immediately thereafter, 923 00:56:11,959 --> 00:56:16,625 through July 13th, 2014. 924 00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:20,792 This court first finds 925 00:56:20,875 --> 00:56:22,792 that the Commonwealth has proven 926 00:56:22,875 --> 00:56:25,500 beyond a reasonable doubt 927 00:56:25,583 --> 00:56:28,625 that the actions taken by Miss Carter 928 00:56:28,709 --> 00:56:33,417 as to the period from June 30th to July 12th 929 00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:38,083 constituted wanton and reckless conduct by her, 930 00:56:39,709 --> 00:56:43,667 and serious disregard of the well-being of Mr. Roy. 931 00:56:46,208 --> 00:56:52,709 The Commonwealth has not proven, as to that time period, 932 00:56:52,792 --> 00:56:56,166 that said reckless or wanton behavior 933 00:56:56,250 --> 00:56:58,750 caused the death of Mr. Roy. 934 00:57:01,917 --> 00:57:04,583 Mr. Roy was struggling with his issues 935 00:57:04,667 --> 00:57:08,792 and took significant actions of his own. 936 00:57:08,875 --> 00:57:12,166 He secured the generator. He secured the water pump. 937 00:57:12,250 --> 00:57:15,667 He researched how to fix the generator. 938 00:57:17,875 --> 00:57:21,625 He located his vehicle in an unnoticeable area 939 00:57:21,709 --> 00:57:25,375 and commenced his attempt by starting the pump. 940 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:34,125 However, he breaks that chain of self-causation 941 00:57:35,709 --> 00:57:37,667 by exiting the vehicle. 942 00:57:38,917 --> 00:57:42,709 He takes himself out of the toxic environment 943 00:57:42,792 --> 00:57:45,417 that it has become. 944 00:57:45,500 --> 00:57:51,375 When Miss Carter realizes that Mr. Roy has exited the truck, 945 00:57:51,458 --> 00:57:55,083 she instructs him to get back into the truck, 946 00:57:56,667 --> 00:58:01,208 which she has reason to know is or is becoming 947 00:58:01,291 --> 00:58:05,750 a toxic environment inconsistent with human life. 948 00:58:07,875 --> 00:58:11,041 This court finds where one's action 949 00:58:11,125 --> 00:58:14,625 create a life-threatening risk to another, 950 00:58:14,709 --> 00:58:18,208 there is a duty to take reasonable steps 951 00:58:18,291 --> 00:58:20,709 to alleviate the risk. 952 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,166 The reckless failure to fulfill this duty 953 00:58:25,250 --> 00:58:28,041 can result in a charge of manslaughter. 954 00:58:30,125 --> 00:58:33,500 Knowing that Mr. Roy is in the truck, 955 00:58:33,583 --> 00:58:37,125 knowing the condition of the truck, 956 00:58:37,208 --> 00:58:40,709 Miss Carter takes no action 957 00:58:40,792 --> 00:58:44,291 in the furtherance of the duty that she has created 958 00:58:44,375 --> 00:58:47,417 by instructing Mr. Roy to get back into the truck. 959 00:58:49,083 --> 00:58:53,000 Consequently, this court has found that the Commonwealth 960 00:58:53,083 --> 00:58:55,542 has proven beyond a reasonable doubt 961 00:58:55,625 --> 00:59:00,542 that Miss Carter's actions and also her failure to act 962 00:59:00,625 --> 00:59:04,166 where she had a self-created duty to Mr. Roy, 963 00:59:04,250 --> 00:59:09,542 constituted each and all wanton and reckless conduct. 964 00:59:09,625 --> 00:59:12,041 And this court further finds that the Commonwealth 965 00:59:12,125 --> 00:59:14,542 has proven beyond a reasonable doubt 966 00:59:14,625 --> 00:59:19,375 that said conduct caused the death of Mr. Roy. 967 00:59:19,458 --> 00:59:20,959 Miss Carter, please stand. 968 00:59:23,917 --> 00:59:28,083 This court, having reviewed the evidence 969 00:59:28,166 --> 00:59:31,083 and applied the law thereto, 970 00:59:31,166 --> 00:59:36,083 now finds you guilty on the indictment charging you 971 00:59:36,166 --> 00:59:38,333 with the involuntary manslaughter 972 00:59:38,417 --> 00:59:40,959 of the person Conrad Roy III. 973 00:59:42,083 --> 00:59:43,583 You may be seated. 974 00:59:43,667 --> 00:59:47,458 That verdict is now recorded and it is in writing as well. 975 00:59:47,542 --> 00:59:51,208 This matter will stand continued to August 3rd 976 00:59:51,291 --> 00:59:53,709 for a sentencing hearing. Thank you very much. 977 00:59:53,792 --> 00:59:55,125 COURT CLERK: All rise. 978 00:59:56,834 --> 00:59:58,542 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 979 01:00:01,417 --> 01:00:03,125 (REPORTERS CLAMORING) 980 01:00:03,208 --> 01:00:06,250 Very, very disappointed with the outcome, 981 01:00:06,333 --> 01:00:08,709 however, because the case is still pending, 982 01:00:08,792 --> 01:00:10,583 beyond saying I'm disappointed, 983 01:00:10,667 --> 01:00:12,875 I'm not gonna comment any further, so, um, 984 01:00:12,959 --> 01:00:14,125 thank you all. 985 01:00:14,208 --> 01:00:15,583 REPORTER 1: Do you have an appeal plan? 986 01:00:15,667 --> 01:00:17,083 REPORTER 2: Are you surprised though? 987 01:00:17,166 --> 01:00:21,166 (CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING) 988 01:00:28,458 --> 01:00:29,625 RAYBURN: Good afternoon. 989 01:00:29,709 --> 01:00:31,250 Since we still have to return to court 990 01:00:31,333 --> 01:00:33,000 for the sentencing phase of this case, 991 01:00:33,083 --> 01:00:34,792 I will keep my comments brief. 992 01:00:34,875 --> 01:00:36,500 Although we are very pleased with the verdict, 993 01:00:36,583 --> 01:00:39,250 in reality, there are no winners here today. 994 01:00:39,333 --> 01:00:41,208 Conrad, an 18-year-old boy, is dead, 995 01:00:41,291 --> 01:00:43,750 and the young woman-- a young woman is now convicted 996 01:00:43,834 --> 01:00:45,041 of causing his death. 997 01:00:45,125 --> 01:00:47,083 Two families have been torn apart 998 01:00:47,166 --> 01:00:49,583 and will be affected by this for years to come. 999 01:00:49,667 --> 01:00:51,458 This was a unique case that dealt with 1000 01:00:51,542 --> 01:00:54,166 a lot of important issues in our society today. 1001 01:00:54,250 --> 01:00:56,792 But in the end, the case was really about 1002 01:00:56,875 --> 01:00:59,250 one young man and one young woman 1003 01:00:59,333 --> 01:01:02,375 who were brought together by tragic circumstances. 1004 01:01:03,667 --> 01:01:06,500 -(REPORTERS CLAMORING) -(INDISTINCT CHATTER) 1005 01:01:08,333 --> 01:01:11,000 (INDISTINCT CHATTER, CLAMORING) 1006 01:01:11,083 --> 01:01:13,375 REPORTER 1: What do you want the sentence to be? 1007 01:01:16,417 --> 01:01:18,041 REPORTER 1: What do you want the sentence to be? 1008 01:01:18,125 --> 01:01:19,875 REPORTER 2: Are you satisfied with what happened though? 1009 01:01:19,959 --> 01:01:21,709 Do you feel like you get some relief? 1010 01:01:21,792 --> 01:01:23,333 REPORTER 3: Mr. Roy, what kind of relief 1011 01:01:23,417 --> 01:01:25,000 are you feeling right now? 1012 01:01:25,083 --> 01:01:28,667 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 1013 01:01:28,750 --> 01:01:30,625 -WOMAN: Come on. -Careful behind you. 1014 01:01:34,291 --> 01:01:36,917 Reporter 4: Would you like to say anything to the judge? 1015 01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:38,709 WOMAN: Justice for Conrad. 1016 01:01:38,792 --> 01:01:42,083 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 1017 01:01:42,166 --> 01:01:44,166 REPORTER 5: Hey guys. tell us how you feel? 1018 01:01:44,250 --> 01:01:45,333 No comment. 1019 01:01:45,417 --> 01:01:47,375 WOMAN: Come on, get the door unlocked. 1020 01:01:47,458 --> 01:01:49,083 REPORTER 6: Can you tell us what you think 1021 01:01:49,166 --> 01:01:50,250 about this verdict? 1022 01:01:52,417 --> 01:01:55,375 Can you just tell us what you think about the verdict? 1023 01:01:55,458 --> 01:01:57,291 Do you feel like justice was served here? 1024 01:01:57,375 --> 01:01:59,583 WOMAN: Watch out. Excuse me. 1025 01:02:10,625 --> 01:02:14,458 There are many, uh, verdicts that you'll see, 1026 01:02:14,542 --> 01:02:16,583 whether I've been involved in them or, you know, 1027 01:02:16,667 --> 01:02:19,041 many cases that I haven't been involved, you'll say, 1028 01:02:19,125 --> 01:02:22,166 "Well, this prosecution really has the law on their side. 1029 01:02:22,250 --> 01:02:24,166 They have the facts on their side. 1030 01:02:24,250 --> 01:02:26,834 Uh, I don't think that that was the case here. 1031 01:02:26,917 --> 01:02:28,625 I think, you know, people-- 1032 01:02:28,709 --> 01:02:30,208 There are plenty of people who are still 1033 01:02:30,291 --> 01:02:33,208 scratching their head, thinking, "How is this a crime?" 1034 01:02:33,291 --> 01:02:35,583 How could the judge do what he did 1035 01:02:35,667 --> 01:02:37,667 and find her guilty on this evidence? 1036 01:02:37,750 --> 01:02:41,417 In rendering his verdict, he went so far as to say 1037 01:02:41,500 --> 01:02:46,750 up until the point in time that Conrad was in the truck 1038 01:02:46,834 --> 01:02:51,166 with the water pump going, it was on Conrad Roy; 1039 01:02:51,250 --> 01:02:53,166 Michelle would not have been found guilty. 1040 01:02:53,250 --> 01:02:56,000 Then it turned on a dime and said, however, 1041 01:02:56,083 --> 01:03:00,583 when he got out of his truck, she had a self-created duty, 1042 01:03:00,667 --> 01:03:03,166 knowing that he was getting back into the car, 1043 01:03:03,250 --> 01:03:05,875 to prevent it when she wasn't physically present. 1044 01:03:05,959 --> 01:03:09,750 Um, that's when it obviously went downhill and that was, uh, 1045 01:03:09,834 --> 01:03:13,125 was somewhat of a surprise to hear him saying that. 1046 01:03:13,208 --> 01:03:15,333 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 1047 01:03:20,583 --> 01:03:23,458 BARRON: The huge question at the heart of this case 1048 01:03:23,542 --> 01:03:27,834 is whether Michelle told Conrad to get back in the truck. 1049 01:03:27,917 --> 01:03:29,959 It's a big question because there's-- 1050 01:03:30,041 --> 01:03:32,000 there's meta-data for the phone calls. 1051 01:03:32,083 --> 01:03:34,125 But there's no recordings. 1052 01:03:34,208 --> 01:03:37,291 So, there's absolutely no way to know whether 1053 01:03:37,375 --> 01:03:39,750 Michelle telling him to get back in the truck 1054 01:03:39,834 --> 01:03:42,875 was an event that took place, whether it was something 1055 01:03:42,959 --> 01:03:45,125 that she wanted people to think had happened. 1056 01:03:45,208 --> 01:03:47,709 Whether it was like a manifestation of her guilt. 1057 01:03:48,542 --> 01:03:49,792 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 1058 01:03:49,875 --> 01:03:52,041 BARRON: Why did Michelle wait two months 1059 01:03:52,125 --> 01:03:53,583 to tell Samantha Boardman, 1060 01:03:53,667 --> 01:03:55,375 "I told him to get back in the truck"? 1061 01:03:56,500 --> 01:03:58,583 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 1062 01:04:07,750 --> 01:04:11,625 I don't think we can know that Michelle's story is at all true. 1063 01:04:11,709 --> 01:04:14,917 It's not-- I don't think it's a true story. 1064 01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:16,792 There's no text she said it. 1065 01:04:16,875 --> 01:04:21,166 There's no recording of a phone that she said it. 1066 01:04:21,250 --> 01:04:26,166 Michelle frequently made contradictory statements. 1067 01:04:26,250 --> 01:04:30,208 One of the most striking was that she told her friends 1068 01:04:30,291 --> 01:04:32,667 that she had never had sex. 1069 01:04:32,750 --> 01:04:33,917 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 1070 01:04:46,917 --> 01:04:50,667 Then she told a friend that she had had sex with, 1071 01:04:50,750 --> 01:04:51,875 uh, Conrad. 1072 01:04:51,959 --> 01:04:53,458 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS) 1073 01:05:02,333 --> 01:05:06,166 Then she told her friend that Conrad had raped her. 1074 01:05:06,250 --> 01:05:08,750 That he had forced himself on her. 1075 01:05:08,834 --> 01:05:10,000 (TEXT MESSAGE ALERT) 1076 01:05:18,458 --> 01:05:22,667 What's scary about Michelle's description of being assaulted 1077 01:05:22,750 --> 01:05:25,083 is, uh, that her friends don't believe her. 1078 01:05:25,166 --> 01:05:27,542 That there's a sense that, like, 1079 01:05:27,625 --> 01:05:29,417 Michelle says some stuff that's true 1080 01:05:29,500 --> 01:05:33,625 and some stuff that's not true and everyone kind of knows it. 1081 01:05:33,709 --> 01:05:37,792 I didn't see the DA bringing that up and saying, 1082 01:05:37,875 --> 01:05:40,917 "Well, Michelle was raped by Conrad. 1083 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,750 How do we know she was raped by Conrad? 1084 01:05:43,834 --> 01:05:46,792 She actually told somebody in a text." 1085 01:05:46,875 --> 01:05:50,417 The DA said again and again 1086 01:05:50,500 --> 01:05:53,625 she was a liar who couldn't be trusted 1087 01:05:53,709 --> 01:05:57,875 because the DA was obsessed with not making her sympathetic 1088 01:05:57,959 --> 01:06:01,458 without realizing she was undermining her own case. 1089 01:06:01,542 --> 01:06:06,208 But this is the constant twisting by the DA of data 1090 01:06:06,291 --> 01:06:09,542 so that it became impossible to disentangle. 1091 01:06:12,792 --> 01:06:16,375 Most of America believes that she 1092 01:06:16,458 --> 01:06:18,959 texted him this in writing. 1093 01:06:19,041 --> 01:06:20,625 NEWS ANCHOR: According to prosecutors, 1094 01:06:20,709 --> 01:06:22,792 Carter even texting him to get back in the truck 1095 01:06:22,875 --> 01:06:24,625 when he has second thoughts. 1096 01:06:24,709 --> 01:06:27,000 BREGGIN: And when I meet people in airports 1097 01:06:27,083 --> 01:06:28,583 and I'd say to them, uh, 1098 01:06:28,667 --> 01:06:31,250 "Hey folks, do you know about this-- 1099 01:06:31,333 --> 01:06:33,208 this, uh, lady, uh, you know, 1100 01:06:33,291 --> 01:06:35,250 who supposedly told her boyfriend to kill himself?" 1101 01:06:35,333 --> 01:06:38,166 "Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. She-- She texted her to death." 1102 01:06:38,250 --> 01:06:39,625 I said, "Would you believe 1103 01:06:39,709 --> 01:06:41,083 that there was never anything written down? 1104 01:06:41,166 --> 01:06:42,458 We have no written record." 1105 01:06:42,542 --> 01:06:44,250 "No, Doc." 1106 01:06:44,333 --> 01:06:45,583 And people get mad. 1107 01:06:45,667 --> 01:06:48,000 They say things like fake news again. 1108 01:06:48,083 --> 01:06:50,709 They we're just cherry picking when to believe Michelle 1109 01:06:50,792 --> 01:06:52,417 and when not to believe Michelle. 1110 01:06:54,083 --> 01:06:55,709 We are appealing the verdict, 1111 01:06:55,792 --> 01:06:58,417 and we'll appeal it for as long as it takes. 1112 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,500 To now treat this juvenile 1113 01:07:03,583 --> 01:07:07,333 as, uh, somebody who committed a homicide, 1114 01:07:07,417 --> 01:07:10,917 I think is, uh, unfair, unjust and illegal, 1115 01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,959 and I think eventually the court system will see it. 1116 01:07:14,041 --> 01:07:15,917 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 1117 01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:32,834 WOMAN: Here's Michelle coming in right now. 1118 01:07:33,917 --> 01:07:35,250 WOMAN IN CROWD: 1119 01:07:35,333 --> 01:07:37,291 MAN IN CROWD: Keep your head up. Love you, Michelle. 1120 01:07:38,041 --> 01:07:39,583 WOMAN IN CROWD: 1121 01:07:40,583 --> 01:07:42,792 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 1122 01:08:15,625 --> 01:08:17,333 MARYCLARE FLYNN: Your Honor, the Commonwealth is asking 1123 01:08:17,417 --> 01:08:20,000 this court to impose a sentence of not less than seven, 1124 01:08:20,083 --> 01:08:23,208 no more than 12 years in state prison. 1125 01:08:23,291 --> 01:08:25,291 Your Honor, as the evidence proved, 1126 01:08:25,375 --> 01:08:28,750 the facts in this case are egregious. 1127 01:08:28,834 --> 01:08:32,500 There is no earthly reason why Conrad Henri Roy 1128 01:08:32,583 --> 01:08:36,041 should not be here today with his loving family, 1129 01:08:36,667 --> 01:08:38,208 enjoying life, 1130 01:08:38,291 --> 01:08:41,208 sharing his many gifts with the world. 1131 01:08:41,291 --> 01:08:45,000 But he is not and the reason he is not here 1132 01:08:45,083 --> 01:08:48,000 is the defendant, Michelle Carter. 1133 01:08:48,083 --> 01:08:51,291 Her actions killed Conrad Roy. 1134 01:08:51,375 --> 01:08:54,667 She ended his life to better her own. 1135 01:08:54,750 --> 01:08:56,417 For all of these reasons, Your Honor, 1136 01:08:56,500 --> 01:08:59,041 the Commonwealth respectfully asks this court 1137 01:08:59,125 --> 01:09:01,291 to impose our recommendation. Thank you. 1138 01:09:01,375 --> 01:09:03,750 JUDGE MONIZ: Thank you, Miss Flynn. 1139 01:09:03,834 --> 01:09:06,208 Who speaks for the defendant? 1140 01:09:06,291 --> 01:09:09,041 Mr. Cataldo, do you have any evidence to present? 1141 01:09:10,875 --> 01:09:13,583 Um, Your Honor, I will summarize by saying, 1142 01:09:13,667 --> 01:09:15,917 as this court is well aware, 1143 01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:19,750 we're guided with the idea in the juvenile justice system 1144 01:09:19,834 --> 01:09:24,583 that the goal is not punitive but yet rehabilitative. 1145 01:09:24,667 --> 01:09:27,792 Miss Carter was 17 years old at the time. 1146 01:09:27,875 --> 01:09:31,458 We have a body of law from both the United States Supreme Court 1147 01:09:31,542 --> 01:09:32,834 as well as the SJC 1148 01:09:32,917 --> 01:09:35,417 about the adolescent brain development, 1149 01:09:35,500 --> 01:09:38,667 what a court can consider on sentencing. 1150 01:09:38,750 --> 01:09:40,875 And there is a clear body that says 1151 01:09:40,959 --> 01:09:45,000 adolescents are not as culpable as full-grown adults. 1152 01:09:45,083 --> 01:09:48,542 Miss Carter will have to live with the consequences of this 1153 01:09:48,625 --> 01:09:49,959 for the rest of her life, 1154 01:09:50,041 --> 01:09:52,417 with the publicity that this case has gained. 1155 01:09:52,500 --> 01:09:55,000 Um, that will be substantial. 1156 01:09:55,083 --> 01:09:57,333 Um, I think treatment is appropriate 1157 01:09:57,417 --> 01:10:00,000 in this particular case for Miss Carter. 1158 01:10:00,083 --> 01:10:03,709 Miss Carter does regret what happened. 1159 01:10:03,792 --> 01:10:07,000 She also sent a letter to the probation department 1160 01:10:07,083 --> 01:10:12,417 where she accepts responsibility for her actions, her words, 1161 01:10:12,500 --> 01:10:14,875 her letter. The court has reviewed all this. 1162 01:10:14,959 --> 01:10:19,583 Your Honor, I suggest that she is not a danger to the public 1163 01:10:19,667 --> 01:10:23,875 and in the remedial system, the juvenile system, uh, 1164 01:10:23,959 --> 01:10:27,333 probation is appropriate. Thank you very much, Your Honor. 1165 01:10:27,417 --> 01:10:29,125 JUDGE MONIZ: Thank you very much. 1166 01:10:29,208 --> 01:10:30,458 COURT CLERK: All rise. 1167 01:10:33,417 --> 01:10:35,917 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 1168 01:10:56,166 --> 01:10:57,834 COURT CLERK: This court is now in session. 1169 01:10:57,917 --> 01:11:00,875 Be seated please. No talking while court's in session. 1170 01:11:00,959 --> 01:11:03,500 JUDGE MONIZ: You need to understand, all of you, 1171 01:11:05,125 --> 01:11:07,333 that this court has not nor should it 1172 01:11:07,417 --> 01:11:10,667 allow any emotional response to this case to enter 1173 01:11:10,750 --> 01:11:14,000 into its determinations in any way. 1174 01:11:14,083 --> 01:11:19,792 Everyone is entitled to a decision devoid of any emotion 1175 01:11:19,875 --> 01:11:21,792 with respect to this case. 1176 01:11:23,834 --> 01:11:26,875 Now I know that there has been significant media coverage 1177 01:11:26,959 --> 01:11:28,667 of this case. 1178 01:11:28,750 --> 01:11:32,458 I assure you that I have steadfastly avoided 1179 01:11:32,542 --> 01:11:34,750 any of that. 1180 01:11:34,834 --> 01:11:37,166 But by the end of today people will wonder why 1181 01:11:37,250 --> 01:11:38,875 what has happened has happened. 1182 01:11:38,959 --> 01:11:41,250 People may wonder why all of this has happened. 1183 01:11:42,542 --> 01:11:44,792 I have not found 1184 01:11:44,875 --> 01:11:49,000 that Miss Carter's age or level of maturity 1185 01:11:50,125 --> 01:11:52,375 or even her mental illness 1186 01:11:54,709 --> 01:11:58,083 have any significant impact on her actions. 1187 01:11:59,959 --> 01:12:02,792 She was a bright young lady, did well in school, 1188 01:12:02,875 --> 01:12:08,375 and I am satisfied that she was mindful of the actions 1189 01:12:08,458 --> 01:12:10,500 for which she now stands convicted. 1190 01:12:12,333 --> 01:12:13,458 On the other hand, 1191 01:12:13,542 --> 01:12:16,083 even if the age and the maturity level 1192 01:12:16,166 --> 01:12:21,208 of the person at the time that they have committed the crime 1193 01:12:23,417 --> 01:12:27,041 doesn't gre-- doesn't garner a great deal of significance, 1194 01:12:27,125 --> 01:12:31,291 the fact that they are still of that young age 1195 01:12:31,375 --> 01:12:34,542 offers a greater promise of rehabilitation. 1196 01:12:36,083 --> 01:12:37,458 Miss Carter, please stand. 1197 01:12:43,625 --> 01:12:47,041 Miss Carter, a guilty finding having entered on the indictment 1198 01:12:47,125 --> 01:12:49,792 charging you with the involuntary manslaughter 1199 01:12:51,458 --> 01:12:53,792 of Conrad Roy III 1200 01:12:53,875 --> 01:12:56,291 now sentences you to two and a half years 1201 01:12:56,375 --> 01:12:58,625 in the Bristol County House of Correction. 1202 01:13:00,333 --> 01:13:02,417 Fifteen months of said sentence 1203 01:13:02,500 --> 01:13:05,125 shall be deemed a committed sentence 1204 01:13:05,208 --> 01:13:07,917 and the balance thereof shall be suspended 1205 01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:11,291 until August 1st of 2022. 1206 01:13:12,959 --> 01:13:17,208 That is the sentence of the court. You may be seated. 1207 01:13:17,291 --> 01:13:19,250 Mr. Cataldo, do you wish to be heard? 1208 01:13:19,333 --> 01:13:21,166 I do, Your Honor. 1209 01:13:21,250 --> 01:13:23,458 -May I approach? -JUDGE MONIZ: You may. 1210 01:13:32,709 --> 01:13:34,750 CATALDO: Your Honor, what I have just filed 1211 01:13:34,834 --> 01:13:37,041 is a motion to stay the execution of the sentence. 1212 01:13:37,125 --> 01:13:40,125 JUDGE MONIZ: All right, let me take a look at it please. CATALDO: Okay, thank you. 1213 01:13:40,792 --> 01:13:43,500 (INAUDIBLE) 1214 01:13:51,542 --> 01:13:52,750 JUDGE MONIZ: I guess we have all 1215 01:13:52,834 --> 01:13:54,291 come to know each other a little bit. 1216 01:13:54,375 --> 01:13:57,250 I anticipated this motion, Mr. Cataldo, 1217 01:13:57,333 --> 01:13:59,166 and I took some significant time 1218 01:13:59,250 --> 01:14:01,834 to review the case of Commonwealth versus Hodge. 1219 01:14:01,917 --> 01:14:05,125 which is found at 380 Mass 851. 1220 01:14:05,208 --> 01:14:07,500 The conviction may be reversible 1221 01:14:07,583 --> 01:14:10,166 but the time spent in prison is not. 1222 01:14:11,959 --> 01:14:17,208 I am satisfied that there is an issue worthy of presentation 1223 01:14:17,291 --> 01:14:21,041 to the appellate court. In fact, this court 1224 01:14:21,125 --> 01:14:23,959 believes that the wisdom of the appellate court 1225 01:14:24,041 --> 01:14:28,041 will be of instruction now and going forward. 1226 01:14:28,125 --> 01:14:30,959 I don't know what the appeals court will do. 1227 01:14:31,041 --> 01:14:33,583 I don't know if it goes to the SJC, 1228 01:14:33,667 --> 01:14:35,125 what the SJC will do. 1229 01:14:35,208 --> 01:14:38,417 But I am satisfied that a grant of a stay 1230 01:14:38,500 --> 01:14:42,250 through the Massachusetts court system only 1231 01:14:43,500 --> 01:14:44,875 is warranted. 1232 01:14:44,959 --> 01:14:48,959 This order will not encompass anything with respect 1233 01:14:49,041 --> 01:14:51,125 to the federal system. 1234 01:14:51,208 --> 01:14:54,333 Is there anything further, Mr. Cataldo or Mr. Madeira? 1235 01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:56,041 One minute please. 1236 01:14:57,041 --> 01:14:58,166 (INAUDIBLE) 1237 01:15:03,959 --> 01:15:05,333 We're all set. Thank you. 1238 01:15:05,417 --> 01:15:07,125 JUDGE MONIZ: And we are adjourned. 1239 01:15:07,208 --> 01:15:08,834 Thank you very much. 1240 01:15:08,917 --> 01:15:10,709 COURT CLERK: All rise. 1241 01:15:10,792 --> 01:15:12,750 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 1242 01:15:23,417 --> 01:15:25,417 (REPORTERS CLAMORING) 1243 01:15:27,166 --> 01:15:28,834 I don't understand how a month ago 1244 01:15:28,917 --> 01:15:30,834 it's a guilty verdict giving the family hope 1245 01:15:30,917 --> 01:15:32,542 that there might be some type of justice, 1246 01:15:32,625 --> 01:15:35,500 to just have her go home tonight and have a nice meal. 1247 01:15:35,583 --> 01:15:37,166 I just don't get it. Like I said, 1248 01:15:37,250 --> 01:15:39,375 it's saying to me... I don't have a law degree, 1249 01:15:39,458 --> 01:15:42,083 I don't have... But it saying as long I'm under 18, 1250 01:15:42,166 --> 01:15:43,417 I can bully anyone. 1251 01:15:44,875 --> 01:15:46,625 REPORTER: Are you pleased with the stay? 1252 01:15:46,709 --> 01:15:49,542 Very much so, yes. Yes. 1253 01:15:49,625 --> 01:15:51,000 BARRON: You have to remember, 1254 01:15:51,083 --> 01:15:52,792 people were totally split about this case. 1255 01:15:52,875 --> 01:15:55,709 So, the reason that it's so interesting to me, 1256 01:15:55,792 --> 01:15:57,542 the-- like, the difference between the conviction 1257 01:15:57,625 --> 01:15:59,000 and the sentencing, 1258 01:15:59,083 --> 01:16:02,041 is that it expresses the complete kind of craziness 1259 01:16:02,125 --> 01:16:04,875 that this case drives people to in terms of trying to come up 1260 01:16:04,959 --> 01:16:06,792 with, like, one objective conclusion 1261 01:16:06,875 --> 01:16:08,333 of what should happen to Michelle Carter. 1262 01:16:08,417 --> 01:16:10,500 REPORTER: If this appeal lingers to 2022, 1263 01:16:10,583 --> 01:16:12,458 conceivably she will never serve time in jail? 1264 01:16:12,542 --> 01:16:13,792 Conceivably, yes. 1265 01:16:15,625 --> 01:16:17,083 BARRON: It's like you were responsible, 1266 01:16:17,166 --> 01:16:19,041 it was involuntary manslaughter. 1267 01:16:19,125 --> 01:16:21,875 But you can basically never go to jail? 1268 01:16:21,959 --> 01:16:23,417 (REPORTERS CLAMORING) 1269 01:16:37,291 --> 01:16:39,542 I would be surprised if she serves time. 1270 01:17:09,834 --> 01:17:12,291 JUDGE MONIZ: I have reviewed 1271 01:17:12,375 --> 01:17:13,709 the Commonwealth's motion 1272 01:17:13,792 --> 01:17:15,291 and have considered the arguments 1273 01:17:15,375 --> 01:17:16,792 just presented to the court. 1274 01:17:16,875 --> 01:17:19,834 The court now allows the Commonwealth's motion 1275 01:17:19,917 --> 01:17:22,458 to revoke the stay of sentence. 1276 01:17:22,542 --> 01:17:25,667 Miss Carter will now be taken into custody. 1277 01:17:31,917 --> 01:17:33,500 JUDGE MONIZ: This matter is adjourned. 1278 01:17:33,583 --> 01:17:34,625 Thank you very much. 1279 01:17:34,709 --> 01:17:35,917 COURT CLERK: All rise. 1280 01:17:37,208 --> 01:17:38,333 (DOOR SLAMS) 1281 01:17:41,667 --> 01:17:43,500 ♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 94898

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