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LESLIE BENNETT:
I'm very happy for you, Rue.
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You're about to start
a brand new chapter.
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00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,417
You've been clean for, like,
two weeks, right?
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00:00:15,291 --> 00:00:17,000
RUE BENNETT: I've actually
been really happy.
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♪ Still don't know my name ♪
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Every time I feel good,
I think it'll last forever.
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But it doesn't.
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We're just reaching
for something...
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to make it all seem meaningful.
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
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♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
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JOSEPH CATALDO:
Did you have some interaction
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-with a Conrad Roy Junior?
-Yes, I did.
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CATALDO: And could you
please describe that?
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MARYCLARE FLYNN: Objection.
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JUDGE MONIZ: Overruled.
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I was-- I was-- I responded
to an assault call, sir.
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CATALDO: Okay. And what
did you do when you arrived?
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We attempted to find the person
that had been assaulted.
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CATALDO: Okay. And at some point
in time, did you come into, um,
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00:01:50,417 --> 00:01:53,750
the physical presence
of Conrad Roy III?
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-I did.
-CATALDO: Okay. And uh,
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did you make any observations
of him?
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JUSTIN KING:
Yes, his face was swollen red
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and he had some uh,
lacerations to his face.
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CATALDO: Did you obtain
a written statement from him?
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KING: I did, yes.
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♪ (MUSIC CONTINUES) ♪
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I found myself um, at a home
located on, uh, Perkins Lane.
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CATALDO: And what did you do
when you arrived
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-at that location?
-I interviewed a, uh,
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an older male and a female.
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CATALDO: Okay. And do you
remember the older male's name?
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Conrad Roy.
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CATALDO: And did you ask him
specifically what happened?
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DENNIS TAVARES: Yes, I did.
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Before concluding
my investigation, uh,
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a male party was subsequently
placed under arrest.
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CATALDO: And who was that
male party that was--
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The father.
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-The one you were speaking to?
-Correct.
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CATALDO: And what
was he arrested for?
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Assault and battery domestic.
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♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
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Yeah. You know,
you think at first
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it's kind of embarrassing
but you know what?
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It doesn't really matter.
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I know what happened
that night with my son.
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And I know, like,
I was being a parent.
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And I know things got
out of control
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and we both fought each other.
(SCOFFS)
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And, um...
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and I'd do it again
just-- just like that.
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You know, sometimes, like,
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you say it, you know, like--
My father always said,
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"If you ever take a swing
at me,
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you're gonna, um,
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you're gonna get it." (CHUCKLES)
You know? It's like,
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"You're gonna make sure
you don't do that ever again."
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And I just felt like
I had to do the same thing.
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♪ ("COME FIND ME"
BY EMILE HAYNIE FEAT. LYKKE LI
and ROMY PLAYS) ♪
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♪ I fall ♪
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♪ I fall ♪
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♪ Deeper than ever ♪
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♪ I call ♪
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♪ I call ♪
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♪ Baby, come find me ♪
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♪ I fall ♪
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♪ I fall ♪
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♪ Deeper than ever ♪
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♪ I call ♪
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♪ I call ♪
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♪ Baby, come find me ♪
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♪ Baby, come find me ♪
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♪ Baby, come find me ♪
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♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪
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REPORTER:
Hard to describe the feeling
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in the courtroom today.
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Pretty much everyone on edge.
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00:05:01,291 --> 00:05:03,208
Now, the defense
will present their case.
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00:05:03,291 --> 00:05:05,792
They've already called
several witnesses this morning
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and things will move forward
in this landmark trial.
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00:05:11,834 --> 00:05:13,208
JESSE BARRON:
You have to remember that
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this case has two families
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who were basically trying
to do the same thing.
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They both want a version
of the story
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00:05:19,083 --> 00:05:20,834
in which it is not their fault.
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The Roys are hoping for
a version of the story
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where the suicide of their son
is Michelle's fault,
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and that she was waiting
for the moment
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when she could pounce
on this kid
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and make him kill himself
and get a bunch of sympathy.
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And the Carters are hoping for
a version of the story
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where Michelle's actions
are not her fault.
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And that's what Peter Breggin
was arguing.
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-JUDGE MONIZ: Morning, Doctor.
-Good morning, Your Honor.
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Please raise your right hand.
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In this matter before the court,
you swear the testimony
you're about to give
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to be the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth
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-so help you God?
-I do.
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Thank you.
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All right.
Please take a seat, sir.
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Make yourself nice
and comfortable.
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♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
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I got a call out of the blue
from the attorney, Mr. Cataldo.
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What he said is,
"Doc, we got this case
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that we don't know
what's going on
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and we can't figure out...
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Um... Give us a hand." (LAUGHS)
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I was originally called in
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to see whether
Conrad Roy's medication
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had made him suicidal.
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He was on psychiatric drugs,
antidepressants,
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and if you look at the research
on what the psych drugs do...
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they can cause suicide.
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I concluded it was
a contributing factor
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but not an overwhelming factor
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because there were many other
things impinging on Conrad.
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
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Conrad was reacting
to a very unhappy,
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angry, and at times,
violent divorce. We know that.
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The father charged the mother
with assault.
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There're all these things
coming to bear on him.
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Then I found out that Michelle
was... on psychiatric drugs too.
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And so, we have these two kids;
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they're not star crossed,
they're drug crossed.
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When did Michelle Carter start,
uh, consuming SSRIs?
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She started Prozac
(CLEARS THROAT)
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on February 17, 2011,
uh, ten milligrams.
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And, uh,
she was just a young girl then,
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fourteen going on 15.
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CATALDO: Okay, thank you.
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BREGGIN: Prozac greatly
increase the risk
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of suicide
in young people her age.
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And she never should've
been given Prozac
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because she was bulimic,
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and that would increase
the power of Prozac over her.
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And not long after
her first exposure to Prozac,
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she climbed up on a stool
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and put a noose around her neck
in her closet.
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
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Now at the same moment,
Conrad Roy,
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whom at that point she thought
was a sweet boyfriend
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without any serious problems,
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was admitted to
a psychiatric hospital
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for a serious suicide attempt.
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(DOG BARKING)
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
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So now Michelle,
who's a youngster
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who's on Prozac at the time,
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is dealing
with this huge disclosure.
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It's-- And he is saying
"I'm not who you thought I was."
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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BREGGIN: And furthermore,
as announced to her
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that voices are telling himself
to kill himself tonight.
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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Michelle becomes desperate.
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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Conrad won't answer her.
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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And she thinks
he's killed himself.
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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(SIRENS BLARING)
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Conrad, at least four times,
attempted suicide,
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once nearly killing himself.
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LYNN ROY:
He overdosed on acetaminophen.
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And the EMTs call me.
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And, um, they ask, they're like,
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"Well, he threw--
You know, threw up a lot.
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Do you want, um, him
to be seen?"
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(SCOFFS) I said "Absolutely."
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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He almost needed
a liver transplant at that time.
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He said he would never
do that again.
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He said, "I-- I promise you
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I will nev--
never do that again."
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I said,
"You know that if you died,
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Mom...
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would want to die too.
You know that, right?"
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
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CATALDO:
And how is this relevant
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00:12:03,375 --> 00:12:05,792
to your clinical analysis
of this case?
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Well, it has to do with the...
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effects of Conrad...
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on what will eventually become
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her idea taken from him
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that he's going to kill himself,
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and that all he cares about
is doing it swiftly and quickly
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and not botching it.
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She's following his lead
into a very dark place.
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
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(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
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00:13:47,333 --> 00:13:49,375
BREGGIN:
Probably the most common
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00:13:49,458 --> 00:13:52,291
adverse effect of
antidepressants is nightmares.
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00:13:52,375 --> 00:13:54,458
So, this is just spot on.
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She's clearly out of her mind,
and so is he.
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♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
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00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:06,959
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
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00:14:41,542 --> 00:14:44,250
CATALDO: You can't look
at one text message.
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00:14:44,333 --> 00:14:48,875
You have to look
at the totality of their
relationship.
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00:14:48,959 --> 00:14:51,000
You have somebody, Conrad Roy,
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00:14:51,083 --> 00:14:54,250
who has been suicidal
for a very long time,
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00:14:54,333 --> 00:14:58,625
really, at this point in time,
intent on killing himself.
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00:14:58,709 --> 00:15:00,166
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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00:15:00,250 --> 00:15:02,750
She, if you look at her
for a year and a half,
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00:15:02,834 --> 00:15:06,375
never wanted him to die. Didn't
want him to kill himself.
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00:15:06,458 --> 00:15:07,667
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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00:15:09,792 --> 00:15:12,083
What caused her to switch?
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00:15:12,166 --> 00:15:13,709
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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00:15:13,792 --> 00:15:15,333
BREGGIN: It struck me
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00:15:15,417 --> 00:15:18,583
that she was in an extremely
abusive relationship.
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00:15:18,667 --> 00:15:22,750
There's this constant harassing
of her
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00:15:22,834 --> 00:15:25,834
while he's not telling family.
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00:15:25,917 --> 00:15:27,792
And at one point toward the end,
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00:15:27,875 --> 00:15:29,583
-Conrad tells her...
-(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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00:15:29,667 --> 00:15:33,041
BREGGIN: "The one thing
that will make me hate you
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00:15:33,125 --> 00:15:37,000
is if you tell anyone
that I'm suicidal."
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00:15:37,083 --> 00:15:39,625
-And she listens.
-(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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BREGGIN: Michelle got it all.
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00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:44,583
There's this huge pyramid
of his misery
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00:15:44,667 --> 00:15:47,083
and at the bottom of it
is sitting Michelle Carter
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00:15:47,166 --> 00:15:48,667
and nobody else.
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00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:53,709
Conrad told Michelle
that his mother knew
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00:15:53,792 --> 00:15:55,417
that he was suicidal.
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00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:57,000
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
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00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,542
CATALDO: He actually
screenshotted her, Michelle,
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00:16:06,625 --> 00:16:10,083
his laptop, of methods
how to kill yourself.
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00:16:10,166 --> 00:16:11,375
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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00:16:14,166 --> 00:16:16,709
CATALDO: Michelle says, "Well,
didn't she say
anything to you?"
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00:16:16,792 --> 00:16:18,875
And Conrad responded, "No,
233
00:16:18,959 --> 00:16:20,875
she just looked at it
and walked away."
234
00:16:20,959 --> 00:16:22,083
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
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00:16:27,792 --> 00:16:30,458
What Conrad is doing
is manipulating
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00:16:30,542 --> 00:16:34,208
and lying to Michelle,
saying, "My mom even knows."
237
00:16:34,291 --> 00:16:35,500
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
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00:16:39,375 --> 00:16:43,500
The whole story became deeper,
239
00:16:43,583 --> 00:16:48,959
and the theme was running
the exact opposite
240
00:16:49,041 --> 00:16:52,667
of the DA's witch hunt.
241
00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:56,917
In fact, both were victims
of the psychiatric drugs.
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00:16:58,083 --> 00:17:01,625
CATALDO: What is
a involuntary intoxication?
243
00:17:01,709 --> 00:17:06,291
Well, by definition
it's an intoxication,
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00:17:06,375 --> 00:17:08,333
which means that
245
00:17:08,417 --> 00:17:12,500
the neurochemistry of the brain
has been disrupted.
246
00:17:12,583 --> 00:17:16,667
And that this intoxication
is observable
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00:17:16,750 --> 00:17:21,041
through thoughts,
behaviors, activities.
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00:17:22,583 --> 00:17:27,166
They involve, in general,
things like impulsivity,
249
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,125
impaired judgment...
250
00:17:30,208 --> 00:17:32,250
CATALDO: And specifically,
Dr. Breggin,
251
00:17:32,333 --> 00:17:34,750
as to Michelle Carter,
did you have an opinion
252
00:17:34,834 --> 00:17:37,959
of whether or not she was
involuntarily intoxicated?
253
00:17:38,917 --> 00:17:39,875
BREGGIN: Yes.
254
00:17:39,959 --> 00:17:41,542
And what is that opinion?
255
00:17:41,625 --> 00:17:44,542
BREGGIN: She was
involuntarily intoxicated.
256
00:17:44,625 --> 00:17:52,291
She was taking Prozac
and she then switched to Celexa.
257
00:17:52,375 --> 00:17:54,959
CATALDO: And are you able to,
uh, pinpoint
258
00:17:55,041 --> 00:17:58,125
about when she became
involuntarily intoxicated?
259
00:17:58,208 --> 00:18:00,834
Yes, on July 2nd,
260
00:18:00,917 --> 00:18:06,125
she begins to help him
go to heaven.
261
00:18:06,208 --> 00:18:07,583
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
262
00:18:07,667 --> 00:18:09,959
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
263
00:18:15,667 --> 00:18:19,709
At this point, she has
an involuntary intoxication
264
00:18:19,792 --> 00:18:24,000
where she's not forming
a criminal intent,
265
00:18:24,083 --> 00:18:26,166
"I'm gonna harm him."
266
00:18:26,250 --> 00:18:29,750
She's not doing something
she thinks is criminal,
267
00:18:29,834 --> 00:18:31,500
"This is bad."
268
00:18:31,583 --> 00:18:32,667
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
269
00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:34,333
BREGGIN: She's thinking
270
00:18:34,417 --> 00:18:36,917
that it's a good thing
to help him die.
271
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,250
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
272
00:18:39,333 --> 00:18:42,291
BREGGIN: That she can mitigate
the circumstances.
273
00:18:42,375 --> 00:18:43,834
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
274
00:18:46,875 --> 00:18:50,083
BREGGIN: That she can then go
and help his family.
275
00:18:50,166 --> 00:18:51,375
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
276
00:18:55,083 --> 00:18:58,625
And like anybody who's
in a hypomanic state,
277
00:18:58,709 --> 00:19:01,500
she gets very angry
when she's disrupted.
278
00:19:01,583 --> 00:19:02,750
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
279
00:19:11,166 --> 00:19:13,125
BREGGIN: This is now the way.
280
00:19:13,208 --> 00:19:15,875
She's found the way
to finally help.
281
00:19:21,333 --> 00:19:22,417
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
282
00:22:49,667 --> 00:22:51,375
DR. ANNE GLOWINSKI:
Involuntary intoxication
283
00:22:51,458 --> 00:22:53,458
is a diagnosis
that I never use,
284
00:22:53,542 --> 00:22:57,375
and that most of the colleagues
that I know don't use.
285
00:22:57,458 --> 00:23:00,041
But that is using
forensic psychiatry.
286
00:23:00,125 --> 00:23:03,583
So, without, you know,
without, uh, any consensus
287
00:23:03,667 --> 00:23:06,250
by our profession that
it's even real.
288
00:23:06,333 --> 00:23:10,375
In some
children and adolescents
taking antidepressants,
289
00:23:10,458 --> 00:23:12,333
it can be disinhibiting.
290
00:23:12,417 --> 00:23:14,542
I wouldn't call it drastic,
you know?
291
00:23:14,625 --> 00:23:19,083
But, uh, if you become manic
when you're on antidepressant,
292
00:23:19,166 --> 00:23:21,000
that's pretty drastic,
you know,
293
00:23:21,083 --> 00:23:24,792
and that happens in a very
small proportion of cases.
294
00:23:29,125 --> 00:23:31,291
You may resume when
you are ready, Miss Rayburn.
295
00:23:31,375 --> 00:23:32,542
Thank you very much, Your Honor.
296
00:23:32,625 --> 00:23:34,291
-Uh, good morning, sir.
-Morning.
297
00:23:34,375 --> 00:23:35,792
KATIE RAYBURN:
You would agree with me
298
00:23:35,875 --> 00:23:39,750
at the time between July 2nd
and July 12th, 2014,
299
00:23:39,834 --> 00:23:42,417
the defendant was going
to camp, correct?
300
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:43,959
-BREGGIN: Yes.
-RAYBURN: Okay.
301
00:23:44,041 --> 00:23:46,917
She was interacting with
friends at times, correct?
302
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,125
-BREGGIN: Yes.
-She's seeking therapy
303
00:23:49,208 --> 00:23:50,417
and talking to her therapist,
304
00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:52,208
-correct?
-Yes.
305
00:23:52,291 --> 00:23:53,709
RAYBURN:
And you would agree with me
306
00:23:53,792 --> 00:23:55,291
that the therapist describes
her appearance as
307
00:23:55,375 --> 00:23:57,917
good eye contact,
well groomed, correct? Okay?
308
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,417
-Yeah.
-RAYBURN: All right.
309
00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:02,375
Short-term memory intact.
Judgment good. Correct?
310
00:24:02,458 --> 00:24:03,667
Mm-hmm.
311
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:05,417
RAYBURN: Behavior,
no abnormalities, correct?
312
00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:06,500
Yeah.
313
00:24:06,583 --> 00:24:08,083
RAYBURN:
Her affect is appropriate.
314
00:24:08,166 --> 00:24:09,959
Her short, uh,
long-term memory's intact,
315
00:24:10,041 --> 00:24:11,041
-correct?
-Yeah.
316
00:24:11,125 --> 00:24:12,375
RAYBURN: Her insight is good.
317
00:24:12,458 --> 00:24:13,583
-Correct?
-Yeah.
318
00:24:13,667 --> 00:24:14,917
RAYBURN:
And you're now telling us
319
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,083
that she didn't know
right from wrong
320
00:24:17,166 --> 00:24:18,458
at that same time?
321
00:24:18,542 --> 00:24:21,083
BREGGIN: Well, actually,
she thought she was doing
322
00:24:21,166 --> 00:24:23,208
absolutely the right thing.
323
00:24:23,291 --> 00:24:24,834
RAYBURN:
You would agree with me, though,
324
00:24:24,917 --> 00:24:29,458
that on July 10th
into July 11th 2014, uh,
325
00:24:29,542 --> 00:24:31,500
the defendant
is telling friends,
326
00:24:31,583 --> 00:24:35,417
specifically Sam Boardman,
that Conrad is missing,
327
00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:36,917
-correct?
-BREGGIN: Yes.
328
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,667
RAYBURN: But at the same time,
you would agree with me
329
00:24:38,750 --> 00:24:40,166
she's communicating
with Conrad?
330
00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:41,542
BREGGIN: Yes.
331
00:24:41,625 --> 00:24:42,792
She's telling people
he's missing,
332
00:24:42,875 --> 00:24:44,125
she doesn't know where he is.
333
00:24:44,208 --> 00:24:45,458
She's getting updates
from the family.
334
00:24:45,542 --> 00:24:47,291
All while speaking to him,
correct?
335
00:24:47,375 --> 00:24:52,208
Yes. It's very strange.
I can't find a rational reason
336
00:24:52,291 --> 00:24:54,041
why she would ever have been
doing this.
337
00:24:54,125 --> 00:24:57,208
I think it's part of a very
confused, delusional state
338
00:24:57,291 --> 00:24:59,500
that-- Where she's coming
in and out of, uh,
339
00:24:59,583 --> 00:25:01,083
"What's happening?
What am I doing?"
340
00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:02,667
RAYBURN:
How about the rational reason
341
00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:05,250
that she wanted to know
how her friends would react
342
00:25:05,333 --> 00:25:07,291
when he killed himself?
343
00:25:07,375 --> 00:25:10,333
No. I can't imagine that
would be motivating her
344
00:25:10,417 --> 00:25:15,041
to be opening up this
horrible, bizarre activity
345
00:25:15,125 --> 00:25:17,291
she's involved in. I...
346
00:25:17,375 --> 00:25:18,709
I mean, you would expect her
347
00:25:18,792 --> 00:25:20,917
not to do anything like that.
(CHUCKLES)
348
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,917
RAYBURN: But she's saying
she's concerned for him,
349
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,000
while at the same time
talking to him.
350
00:25:28,083 --> 00:25:29,875
Yeah. I think it's really crazy.
351
00:25:29,959 --> 00:25:34,166
And in fact, Sam does,
I would suggest to you,
352
00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:36,875
she then shows concern.
Correct?
353
00:25:36,959 --> 00:25:39,500
-Well, of course, yeah.
-RAYBURN: Okay.
354
00:25:39,583 --> 00:25:45,125
Focusing now on July 12th
into the 13th. 9:48 PM.
355
00:25:45,208 --> 00:25:47,709
To Sam: "I'm so fucking stupid.
356
00:25:47,792 --> 00:25:49,417
The generator he got
the other day...
357
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:51,375
I think that he--
the noise I heard...
358
00:25:51,458 --> 00:25:54,041
I just looked it up;
they emit carbon monoxide.
359
00:25:54,125 --> 00:25:55,875
I think he poisoned himself
with it."
360
00:25:55,959 --> 00:25:57,625
And so it goes, correct?
361
00:25:59,125 --> 00:26:01,208
-That's actually a question.
-BREGGIN: Yeah. Yeah.
362
00:26:01,291 --> 00:26:02,834
Okay. Now,
you would agree with me, sir,
363
00:26:02,917 --> 00:26:05,542
that there were text messages
between the defendant
364
00:26:05,625 --> 00:26:09,000
and Conrad Roy about exactly
how he was gonna kill himself,
365
00:26:09,083 --> 00:26:10,625
-weren't there?
-Yeah. Absolutely.
366
00:26:10,709 --> 00:26:12,917
Okay. So, her telling Sam,
367
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,500
"I think the noise
that I heard, uh, I looked--
368
00:26:17,583 --> 00:26:19,750
I think the generator
he got today,
369
00:26:19,834 --> 00:26:22,125
I think that was the noise
I heard. I looked it up.
370
00:26:22,208 --> 00:26:24,542
They can emit carbon monoxide."
371
00:26:24,625 --> 00:26:26,417
She already knew that,
didn't she?
372
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:28,000
-BREGGIN: Yes.
-Okay.
373
00:26:29,625 --> 00:26:34,875
And now talking to Ally,
she says, "Ha, ha, yeah.
374
00:26:34,959 --> 00:26:37,542
But I don't know;
he's in a bad place right now,"
375
00:26:37,625 --> 00:26:39,625
talking to Con-- about Conrad,
correct?
376
00:26:39,709 --> 00:26:41,291
BREGGIN: Yes.
377
00:26:41,375 --> 00:26:42,750
RAYBURN: She's telling Ally
he's in a bad place.
378
00:26:42,834 --> 00:26:44,750
He's dead, sir, at that point.
379
00:26:44,834 --> 00:26:47,250
Did you factor that
in your opinion then?
380
00:26:47,333 --> 00:26:49,291
The fact that she knows
he's dead,
381
00:26:49,375 --> 00:26:51,875
and in saying, "Ha, ha yeah.
382
00:26:51,959 --> 00:26:55,000
But I don't know;
he's in a bad place right now."
383
00:26:55,083 --> 00:26:57,333
Did you factor that
into your opinion?
384
00:26:58,417 --> 00:26:59,834
Yes, I factored every--
385
00:26:59,917 --> 00:27:02,000
every bit of this
into my opinion, yes.
386
00:27:02,083 --> 00:27:04,875
RAYBURN: So, she's telling
one person one thing
387
00:27:04,959 --> 00:27:07,250
and other people
other things, correct?
388
00:27:07,333 --> 00:27:09,041
BREGGIN: Yes, she is.
389
00:27:09,125 --> 00:27:10,667
RAYBURN: So now,
the next morning,
390
00:27:10,750 --> 00:27:15,583
July 13th, 2014 at 9:02,
her mother texts her, correct?
391
00:27:15,667 --> 00:27:16,875
BREGGIN: Yes.
392
00:27:16,959 --> 00:27:19,792
"Hi, Michelle.
What are you doing?" Right?
393
00:27:19,875 --> 00:27:21,959
Michelle responds,
"I'm at home."
394
00:27:22,041 --> 00:27:24,834
Mom says, "Doing what?"
395
00:27:24,917 --> 00:27:27,667
Michelle responds,
"Nothing, ha, ha."
396
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:30,208
Doesn't tell her mother anything
about what's going on,
397
00:27:30,291 --> 00:27:31,917
-does she?
-BREGGIN: No.
398
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,625
RAYBURN: She only tells
her friends,
399
00:27:33,709 --> 00:27:35,125
-correct?
-BREGGIN: Yes.
400
00:27:35,208 --> 00:27:37,709
RAYBURN: These same friends
that she has been asking
401
00:27:37,792 --> 00:27:41,250
to hang out with her
for the past year
402
00:27:41,333 --> 00:27:43,792
and who routinely
don't hang out with her.
403
00:27:43,875 --> 00:27:45,166
Isn't that true?
404
00:27:45,250 --> 00:27:46,667
Oh, I don't know that.
405
00:27:46,750 --> 00:27:48,875
RAYBURN: Would you factor it
into your opinion,
406
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,750
the fact that these--
the defendant wanted to hang out
407
00:27:51,834 --> 00:27:53,959
with her friends and her friends
didn't have time with her
408
00:27:54,041 --> 00:27:57,542
that summer? Could that impact
your opinion?
409
00:27:57,625 --> 00:28:01,542
BREGGIN: That it turned her
into a crazy person
410
00:28:01,625 --> 00:28:03,333
who transformed her character,
411
00:28:03,417 --> 00:28:05,291
-became grandiose...
-No.
412
00:28:05,375 --> 00:28:07,375
...and encouraged a young man
whom she loved
413
00:28:07,458 --> 00:28:10,834
and had been working with a--
again and again to--
414
00:28:10,917 --> 00:28:13,166
to get better,
that she turned on him
415
00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:15,667
and started to encourage him
to die?
416
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:17,166
No, I don't think so.
417
00:28:17,250 --> 00:28:20,542
She's psychotic, deluded.
She's disturbed.
418
00:28:20,625 --> 00:28:24,834
Everything you're describing
is why I concluded
419
00:28:24,917 --> 00:28:27,959
she's got an involuntary
intoxication.
420
00:28:28,875 --> 00:28:30,000
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
421
00:28:30,083 --> 00:28:31,125
CAMERAMAN: All right,
just coming in.
422
00:28:31,208 --> 00:28:32,959
-You ready?
-Yep.
423
00:28:33,041 --> 00:28:34,709
NEWS ANCHOR: So far this morning
we've been hearing from
424
00:28:34,792 --> 00:28:36,834
Dr. Peter Breggin, that paints
a very different picture
425
00:28:36,917 --> 00:28:39,333
than what we saw last week
in those messages.
426
00:28:39,417 --> 00:28:40,834
And the biggest question
here now
427
00:28:40,917 --> 00:28:42,959
is will Michelle Carter testify?
428
00:28:43,041 --> 00:28:44,667
Are you gonna call Michelle
to the stand tomorrow?
429
00:28:44,750 --> 00:28:47,041
Uh. I have no comment.
We're going to proceed tomorrow
430
00:28:47,125 --> 00:28:49,250
with the continuation
of the trial.
431
00:28:49,333 --> 00:28:51,375
BARRON: Part of the drama
of this case
432
00:28:51,458 --> 00:28:54,375
was the adult world confronting
what teenagers are like.
433
00:28:54,458 --> 00:28:58,417
All right, guys. Can you stop?
You've already got her picture.
434
00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:01,709
And I think for the parents
it must be sort of impossible
435
00:29:01,792 --> 00:29:03,375
to understand what happened,
436
00:29:03,458 --> 00:29:06,875
'cause it's so far
from what is, you know,
437
00:29:06,959 --> 00:29:08,750
acceptable human behavior,
438
00:29:08,834 --> 00:29:12,000
what she did
in the last few weeks.
439
00:29:12,083 --> 00:29:15,917
And I think the biggest mystery
of the story is not...
440
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,834
why Michelle Carter
did what she did,
441
00:29:17,917 --> 00:29:19,709
but what Michelle Carter
thought she was doing.
442
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:24,583
JOHN SULER: What's really
interesting about this case
443
00:29:24,667 --> 00:29:26,583
is that we have
this very detailed record
444
00:29:26,667 --> 00:29:28,875
of what was said between them.
445
00:29:28,959 --> 00:29:31,917
This detailed record
of their minds coming together
446
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,083
and interacting
with each other.
447
00:29:34,166 --> 00:29:35,917
In the past we wouldn't have
had that record.
448
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,166
All we would've had was
a person commits suicide
449
00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:42,583
and we're all left wondering
what happened.
450
00:29:42,667 --> 00:29:44,875
Are we talking about
young psychopaths?
451
00:29:44,959 --> 00:29:46,208
Are we talking about
452
00:29:46,291 --> 00:29:48,250
narcissistic personality
disorders,
453
00:29:48,333 --> 00:29:49,709
borderline disorders?
454
00:29:49,792 --> 00:29:52,750
Are we just talking about
young, troubled kids
455
00:29:52,834 --> 00:29:56,333
who don't have a well-developed
frontal cortex
456
00:29:56,417 --> 00:29:58,291
and just don't have
the self-awareness
457
00:29:58,375 --> 00:30:00,625
and the ability to see
what they're doing?
458
00:30:00,709 --> 00:30:03,583
But now because we have this
record of this dialogue
459
00:30:03,667 --> 00:30:06,291
between them, we have
this opportunity to see
460
00:30:06,375 --> 00:30:08,625
what was going on
inside their minds,
461
00:30:08,709 --> 00:30:12,250
inside that thought process
between the two of them.
462
00:30:15,291 --> 00:30:16,375
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
463
00:30:41,083 --> 00:30:42,667
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
464
00:30:42,750 --> 00:30:44,667
BARRON:
The idea that this was a case
465
00:30:44,750 --> 00:30:46,250
where a girlfriend
killed a boyfriend
466
00:30:46,333 --> 00:30:47,583
is really weird.
467
00:30:47,667 --> 00:30:49,417
The way that I read it is...
468
00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:52,500
the relationship was much more
Michelle's fantasy
469
00:30:52,583 --> 00:30:55,917
and Michelle's idea
than it was Conrad's.
470
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,583
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
471
00:30:57,667 --> 00:31:01,709
BARRON: Conrad was alternately
kind of mean to her,
472
00:31:01,792 --> 00:31:03,500
kind of sweet to her...
473
00:31:03,583 --> 00:31:06,750
kind of negging her
for most of the relationship.
474
00:31:07,917 --> 00:31:09,333
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
475
00:31:09,417 --> 00:31:11,500
They really weirdly connected
476
00:31:11,583 --> 00:31:13,166
on this slightly mean,
477
00:31:13,250 --> 00:31:15,667
slightly competitive level
that they both had.
478
00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:17,291
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
479
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:21,208
BARRON:
They had this kind of game
480
00:31:21,291 --> 00:31:24,166
-that they would play together.
-(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
481
00:31:26,834 --> 00:31:28,458
BARRON: They would finish
each other's sentences,
482
00:31:28,542 --> 00:31:30,333
they would play
weird word games
483
00:31:30,417 --> 00:31:31,834
and free associations.
484
00:31:31,917 --> 00:31:33,333
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
485
00:31:43,166 --> 00:31:45,458
BARRON: And it's, like,
kind of sexy, kind of weird,
486
00:31:45,542 --> 00:31:47,792
kind of exciting
if you're a teenage boy.
487
00:31:49,458 --> 00:31:50,792
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
488
00:31:50,875 --> 00:31:52,458
BARRON: They both sort of liked
this kind of
489
00:31:52,542 --> 00:31:54,500
brinkmanship with each other.
490
00:31:55,417 --> 00:31:56,500
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
491
00:32:01,959 --> 00:32:03,709
BARRON:
They talked a lot about
492
00:32:03,792 --> 00:32:06,750
"Let's meet, let's hang out.
When are we going to hang out?"
493
00:32:06,834 --> 00:32:08,667
They'd come to the brink
of seeing each other
494
00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:10,250
and then they'd always
back away.
495
00:32:10,333 --> 00:32:13,250
So, their whole relationship
was the text messages.
496
00:32:13,333 --> 00:32:14,542
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
497
00:32:16,875 --> 00:32:19,792
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS
AND TYPING SOUNDS)
498
00:32:21,667 --> 00:32:25,375
MARIN COGAN: The fact that
we now all live our lives
499
00:32:25,458 --> 00:32:27,917
via smart phones
500
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,583
is completely central
to this case.
501
00:32:31,667 --> 00:32:35,166
It's every parent's
worst nightmare.
502
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:40,250
You have two teenagers
connecting in the most
503
00:32:40,333 --> 00:32:42,583
cataclysmic possible way.
504
00:32:44,875 --> 00:32:46,500
Conrad, he found someone
505
00:32:46,583 --> 00:32:49,959
who he could confide
these thoughts in.
506
00:32:50,041 --> 00:32:56,291
And Michelle found this access
to immediate sort of intimacy.
507
00:32:56,375 --> 00:32:58,166
(typing sounds)
508
00:32:58,250 --> 00:33:00,667
SULER: When people
are communicating through text,
509
00:33:00,750 --> 00:33:02,709
strange things
can start to happen.
510
00:33:02,792 --> 00:33:05,792
You don't necessarily
experience the other person
511
00:33:05,875 --> 00:33:07,208
as another person.
512
00:33:07,291 --> 00:33:09,542
You can't see them,
you can't hear them,
513
00:33:09,625 --> 00:33:11,875
you can't see
their body language.
514
00:33:13,208 --> 00:33:16,291
You have this voice with you
all day long
515
00:33:16,375 --> 00:33:20,792
that will suddenly pop up
and say things to you.
516
00:33:20,875 --> 00:33:23,166
I think in some ways
people experience that
517
00:33:23,250 --> 00:33:24,709
as a voice in their head,
518
00:33:24,792 --> 00:33:27,583
almost as if it's like
an internal hallucination.
519
00:33:29,291 --> 00:33:31,667
You're really interacting
with these characters
520
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:35,709
inside your mind without really
understanding,
521
00:33:35,792 --> 00:33:37,542
on a more conscious,
rational level,
522
00:33:37,625 --> 00:33:40,250
these text messages are coming
from another person
523
00:33:40,333 --> 00:33:42,583
with their own life
and their own thoughts
524
00:33:42,667 --> 00:33:43,917
and their own feelings.
525
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,458
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
526
00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:51,875
BARRON: In some ways,
527
00:33:51,959 --> 00:33:54,166
the big moral failing
from Michelle
528
00:33:54,250 --> 00:33:56,875
has to do with
an eerie inability
529
00:33:56,959 --> 00:33:59,000
to fully apprehend reality.
530
00:33:59,083 --> 00:34:00,583
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
531
00:34:19,458 --> 00:34:21,875
BARRON: There's one level
of the conversation
532
00:34:21,959 --> 00:34:25,583
that is a kid that's
gonna kill himself.
533
00:34:25,667 --> 00:34:26,959
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
534
00:34:27,041 --> 00:34:28,375
BARRON:
And then there's another level
535
00:34:28,458 --> 00:34:30,792
that's a romantic fantasy.
536
00:34:30,875 --> 00:34:32,291
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
537
00:35:18,667 --> 00:35:21,583
BARRON: There is an amazing
intensity to the messages
538
00:35:21,667 --> 00:35:24,000
that's totally incommensurate
with the relationship
539
00:35:24,083 --> 00:35:26,000
-they had before.
-(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
540
00:35:28,875 --> 00:35:30,125
BARRON: And what I found is that
541
00:35:30,208 --> 00:35:32,125
there was all of
these references
542
00:35:32,208 --> 00:35:35,208
to different TV shows,
to movies, to songs...
543
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:40,667
But by far, by far
the most common source
544
00:35:40,750 --> 00:35:43,375
for that kind of language
was Glee.
545
00:35:45,208 --> 00:35:49,083
Glee is a TV show that is set
in an American high school
546
00:35:49,166 --> 00:35:53,417
and the stars are Lea Michele
and Cory Monteith,
547
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:55,083
who are not only the stars
of the show
548
00:35:55,166 --> 00:35:56,875
but were a couple in real life.
549
00:35:56,959 --> 00:36:00,709
And Michelle was obsessed
with Lea Michele.
550
00:36:03,041 --> 00:36:05,083
So, often when she was writing
to Conrad
551
00:36:05,166 --> 00:36:06,625
or writing about Conrad,
552
00:36:06,709 --> 00:36:11,625
she would borrow from text
that was in this TV show.
553
00:36:11,709 --> 00:36:14,917
You are my first love.
554
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:21,375
And I want more than anything
for you to be my last.
555
00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:25,083
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
556
00:36:27,291 --> 00:36:29,417
And I think she connected
with Lea Michele
557
00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:33,333
on kind of a profound level
that went beyond
558
00:36:33,417 --> 00:36:37,166
what a normal teen identifying
with a star...
559
00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:39,333
you know, might feel like.
560
00:36:39,417 --> 00:36:42,417
A star of the popular show Glee
found dead
561
00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:45,166
in his hotel room
in Vancouver. The body...
562
00:36:45,250 --> 00:36:49,625
BARRON: In 2013, Cory Monteith
overdosed in a hotel room
563
00:36:49,709 --> 00:36:50,792
and died.
564
00:36:50,875 --> 00:36:52,667
This was a year,
basically, to the day,
565
00:36:52,750 --> 00:36:54,208
before Conrad died.
566
00:36:54,291 --> 00:36:56,834
The cast of Glee
puts on a tribute episode.
567
00:36:56,917 --> 00:37:01,000
(SINGING) ♪ When the rain
is blowing in your face ♪
568
00:37:01,083 --> 00:37:04,000
Lea Michele sings a song
in his honor
569
00:37:04,083 --> 00:37:05,667
and everyone's devastated
570
00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:08,125
because the character has died
in the show.
571
00:37:08,208 --> 00:37:11,375
So, it's an incredibly eerie
piece of television, because...
572
00:37:11,458 --> 00:37:14,750
you know that this actual actor
OD'd in a hotel
573
00:37:14,834 --> 00:37:17,834
somewhere in Canada,
but in the world of the show,
574
00:37:17,917 --> 00:37:20,542
this football quarterback
has died tragically
575
00:37:20,625 --> 00:37:23,458
and everyone is singing
pop songs to mourn him.
576
00:37:24,625 --> 00:37:26,000
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
577
00:37:26,083 --> 00:37:27,750
BARRON: And Michelle
introduces that to Conrad
578
00:37:27,834 --> 00:37:29,458
in October 2013.
579
00:37:32,125 --> 00:37:35,041
Michelle says, "I just want you
to know how much I love you
580
00:37:35,125 --> 00:37:37,250
and it really made me think
of what it would be like
581
00:37:37,333 --> 00:37:38,542
if you weren't here."
582
00:37:38,625 --> 00:37:40,667
Totally out of the blue
from what was happening.
583
00:37:40,750 --> 00:37:41,959
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
584
00:37:45,709 --> 00:37:47,250
BARRON: It's sort of
the first moment
585
00:37:47,333 --> 00:37:48,875
where you realize that Michelle
586
00:37:48,959 --> 00:37:50,917
has, like,
a completely other story
587
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,000
that's going on that has nothing
to do with Conrad specifically.
588
00:37:54,083 --> 00:37:55,333
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
589
00:37:55,417 --> 00:37:56,959
BARRON: But the idea that
590
00:37:57,041 --> 00:37:59,417
she would be
the person in Glee
591
00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:01,917
who had a boyfriend
who was the quarterback
592
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,750
who had
sort of tragically died,
593
00:38:03,834 --> 00:38:07,208
I think was kind of more real
to her
594
00:38:07,291 --> 00:38:09,000
than it probably is
to most people.
595
00:38:09,917 --> 00:38:11,458
I had it all planned out.
596
00:38:12,083 --> 00:38:13,166
Now what?
597
00:38:15,208 --> 00:38:17,625
I don't know,
something different.
598
00:38:17,709 --> 00:38:19,250
Maybe something better.
599
00:38:19,333 --> 00:38:21,375
I just-- I don't think
that that's possible.
600
00:38:23,333 --> 00:38:24,750
He was my person.
601
00:38:24,834 --> 00:38:27,208
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
602
00:38:27,291 --> 00:38:28,500
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
603
00:38:31,709 --> 00:38:34,333
BARRON: One of the eerie parts
of the text messages
604
00:38:34,417 --> 00:38:36,208
that Michelle sent
to her friends
605
00:38:36,291 --> 00:38:37,750
where she quotes
from Lea Michele,
606
00:38:37,834 --> 00:38:40,458
is that they don't all come
from Glee;
607
00:38:40,542 --> 00:38:43,583
they come from interviews
that the real actress is giving
608
00:38:43,667 --> 00:38:48,291
about her real dead boyfriend
to real talk show hosts.
609
00:38:48,375 --> 00:38:50,750
I literally lived
every day of my life
610
00:38:50,834 --> 00:38:53,709
feeling like the luckiest girl
in the whole world.
611
00:38:53,792 --> 00:38:56,583
I just-- I just thought
he was the greatest man.
612
00:38:56,667 --> 00:38:57,875
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
613
00:39:01,709 --> 00:39:03,917
This is weird.
This is really weird.
614
00:39:08,041 --> 00:39:09,917
BARRON: I think it translates
to that Michelle
615
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,542
had little if any idea
of who she was.
616
00:39:13,625 --> 00:39:17,291
That she identified
extremely strongly
617
00:39:17,375 --> 00:39:20,125
with this other world,
this other life.
618
00:39:22,917 --> 00:39:24,083
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
619
00:39:38,083 --> 00:39:41,542
BARRON: Alice was a teammate
of Michelle's
620
00:39:41,625 --> 00:39:46,750
on a travel softball team
in the spring of 2012.
621
00:39:46,834 --> 00:39:49,875
They instantly became
incredibly close.
622
00:39:49,959 --> 00:39:53,000
They went to, uh,
each other's houses,
623
00:39:53,083 --> 00:39:56,083
they slept over, they took
a team trip to Montreal
624
00:39:56,166 --> 00:39:58,667
and when other, uh,
kids on the team
625
00:39:58,750 --> 00:40:00,250
were going out to eat
as a group,
626
00:40:00,333 --> 00:40:02,041
they would kind of sneak off
and eat together,
627
00:40:02,125 --> 00:40:05,041
-just the two of them.
-(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
628
00:40:05,125 --> 00:40:07,583
It was an intense
teen friendship
629
00:40:07,667 --> 00:40:10,291
that was almost like
a love affair for Michelle.
630
00:40:10,375 --> 00:40:12,458
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
631
00:40:32,417 --> 00:40:33,792
BARRON: Kind of abruptly,
632
00:40:33,875 --> 00:40:35,709
right around the time
that Michelle met Conrad,
633
00:40:35,792 --> 00:40:37,917
Alice cut off contact with her.
634
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,125
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
635
00:40:41,792 --> 00:40:46,917
And in 2014, in the summer...
636
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,792
Michelle, for some reason,
starts really missing Alice.
637
00:40:51,875 --> 00:40:54,709
And this is all happening
right around the time
638
00:40:54,792 --> 00:40:56,792
that Conrad is really suicidal.
639
00:40:56,875 --> 00:40:58,417
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
640
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:00,792
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
641
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:05,792
BARRON: It seems to me that
642
00:41:05,875 --> 00:41:09,375
a lot of the emotional logic
of the case
643
00:41:09,458 --> 00:41:11,625
really has more to do with
the friendship with Alice
644
00:41:11,709 --> 00:41:14,375
than it has to do with
the relationship with Conrad.
645
00:41:14,458 --> 00:41:15,709
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
646
00:41:22,792 --> 00:41:24,875
BARRON: I called Alice
and I said, you know,
647
00:41:24,959 --> 00:41:26,834
"I want to interview you
because it sounds like
648
00:41:26,917 --> 00:41:28,375
Michelle was in love with you."
649
00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:30,917
And I met Alice and her mother.
650
00:41:33,041 --> 00:41:34,625
The reason they were meeting me
651
00:41:34,709 --> 00:41:37,417
was to refute
exactly that story.
652
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:40,500
So, they were meeting to say,
653
00:41:40,583 --> 00:41:41,959
"Michelle is a sociopath,
654
00:41:42,041 --> 00:41:44,000
and she made this all up.
There was never
655
00:41:44,083 --> 00:41:45,750
anything physical
about the relationship."
656
00:41:47,583 --> 00:41:49,667
And if I didn't feel
for Michelle
657
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:51,834
in any moment before that,
658
00:41:51,917 --> 00:41:53,917
in that moment I felt...
659
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,125
a sympathy for how alone
she was.
660
00:41:59,041 --> 00:42:01,959
She had this desire for things
to be more intense,
661
00:42:02,041 --> 00:42:04,291
more like stories
than they really were.
662
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,458
She didn't live in reality;
663
00:42:16,542 --> 00:42:22,709
like, she lived in some kind
of fantasy... I think.
664
00:42:22,792 --> 00:42:27,500
But she's just not
a well person, so...
665
00:42:27,583 --> 00:42:32,166
How can you be that angry
or how can you be that...
666
00:42:36,125 --> 00:42:37,291
when someone is not...
667
00:42:38,959 --> 00:42:40,875
She's not well.
668
00:42:40,959 --> 00:42:43,291
That's all I say.
She's not well.
669
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,959
(CRICKETS CHIRPING)
670
00:43:01,959 --> 00:43:03,125
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
671
00:43:09,291 --> 00:43:10,709
BARRON:
The pattern that would happen
672
00:43:10,792 --> 00:43:12,417
in the last few weeks
of Conrad's life
673
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:15,792
is Conrad would say,
"I'm gonna do it tonight."
674
00:43:15,875 --> 00:43:18,709
Then the next morning
he would be alive.
675
00:43:18,792 --> 00:43:20,625
Then a few days later
he would say,
676
00:43:20,709 --> 00:43:22,166
"Okay,
I'm ready to do it tonight.
677
00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:23,875
I'm gonna do it,"
and then the next morning,
678
00:43:23,959 --> 00:43:25,750
he would be alive.
679
00:43:25,834 --> 00:43:27,166
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
680
00:43:28,333 --> 00:43:30,917
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
681
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,333
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
682
00:43:55,041 --> 00:43:58,000
BARRON: July 12th,
when Conrad dies,
683
00:43:58,083 --> 00:44:00,125
there's a kind of
reality flicker,
684
00:44:00,208 --> 00:44:05,083
where it's not entirely clear
that it's actually happened.
685
00:44:05,166 --> 00:44:06,875
(PHONE RINGING)
686
00:44:08,542 --> 00:44:09,709
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
687
00:44:18,750 --> 00:44:20,542
BARRON: I'll tell you something
really weird.
688
00:44:20,625 --> 00:44:23,417
Five days before Conrad died,
Michelle goes to a movie theater
689
00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:25,500
and sees
The Fault in Our Stars.
690
00:44:25,583 --> 00:44:27,709
And at the climax of the movie,
691
00:44:28,667 --> 00:44:30,667
the boy, Gus,
692
00:44:30,750 --> 00:44:34,041
is dying in a gas station
in a Jeep.
693
00:44:34,125 --> 00:44:37,083
And he calls his girlfriend
for help.
694
00:44:38,458 --> 00:44:39,917
Augustus.
695
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,750
GUS: Hazel Grace.
696
00:44:41,834 --> 00:44:45,709
Hi. Oh, my God, hi.
Hi. I love you.
697
00:44:45,792 --> 00:44:47,250
BARRON:
And she calls the police
698
00:44:47,333 --> 00:44:49,709
and he gets into an ambulance.
699
00:44:49,792 --> 00:44:52,208
So, it doesn't seem implausible
to me
700
00:44:52,291 --> 00:44:56,458
that there were other stories
in Michelle's mind
701
00:44:56,542 --> 00:44:58,917
that reminded her of what was
happening at that moment.
702
00:45:01,250 --> 00:45:05,208
And I think the question is
whether or not
703
00:45:05,291 --> 00:45:08,000
she was kind of writing
some story in her head
704
00:45:08,083 --> 00:45:09,834
or writing some movie
that for some reason
705
00:45:09,917 --> 00:45:13,083
had to end with him dying.
706
00:45:13,166 --> 00:45:17,667
Or whether she literally has
no idea what she's done.
707
00:45:18,750 --> 00:45:19,834
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
708
00:45:23,291 --> 00:45:28,375
BARRON: What is obvious to me
is that when...
709
00:45:28,458 --> 00:45:30,250
he really needed someone
710
00:45:30,333 --> 00:45:32,875
to understand how serious
it was,
711
00:45:32,959 --> 00:45:38,583
and to go over his head
to the cops, to his mother,
712
00:45:38,667 --> 00:45:40,375
she wasn't that person.
713
00:45:40,458 --> 00:45:45,083
And that's her
kind of tragic failing.
714
00:45:47,125 --> 00:45:51,834
She, who wanted so badly
to have a best friend
715
00:45:51,917 --> 00:45:54,709
or someone she could sort of
have this intense,
716
00:45:54,792 --> 00:45:56,959
dyadic affair with,
717
00:45:57,041 --> 00:45:58,583
had the opportunity to do that
718
00:45:58,667 --> 00:46:02,375
with this kid who that night
needed someone
719
00:46:02,458 --> 00:46:06,417
to be his friend and to say,
"You are being fucking crazy
720
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:09,709
and I'm calling the police."
And um...
721
00:46:09,792 --> 00:46:11,000
she didn't do it.
722
00:46:15,333 --> 00:46:16,500
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
723
00:46:38,041 --> 00:46:39,208
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
724
00:46:50,375 --> 00:46:52,250
RAYBURN: "His death is my fault.
725
00:46:52,333 --> 00:46:54,750
Like, honestly,
I could've stopped him.
726
00:46:54,834 --> 00:46:57,625
I was on the phone with him
and he got out of the car
727
00:46:57,709 --> 00:47:00,875
because it was working.
And he got scared
728
00:47:00,959 --> 00:47:04,041
and I fucking told him
to get back in, Sam,
729
00:47:04,125 --> 00:47:07,792
because I knew he would do it
all over again the next day.
730
00:47:07,875 --> 00:47:09,917
And I couldn't have him live
that way,
731
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:11,500
the way he was living, anymore.
732
00:47:11,583 --> 00:47:15,959
I couldn't do it.
I wouldn't let him."
733
00:47:16,041 --> 00:47:17,709
Those were her words,
Your Honor.
734
00:47:17,792 --> 00:47:21,458
She says to her friend,
"If I had done something,
735
00:47:21,542 --> 00:47:24,917
if I had just told him
that I loved him,
736
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,166
he would still be alive."
737
00:47:27,250 --> 00:47:29,125
CATALDO: Your Honor,
this is a suicide,
738
00:47:29,208 --> 00:47:31,500
as I said in my opening
statement, and I say now.
739
00:47:31,583 --> 00:47:35,375
What we're dealing with
is a suicide and not a homicide.
740
00:47:35,458 --> 00:47:37,959
And this is
the government's burden
741
00:47:38,041 --> 00:47:40,291
to prove that it was
a homicide,
742
00:47:40,375 --> 00:47:42,458
a manslaughter
under the elements.
743
00:47:42,542 --> 00:47:45,000
Proof, not by a probable cause,
744
00:47:45,083 --> 00:47:46,500
not by clear
and convincing evidence,
745
00:47:46,583 --> 00:47:49,625
but proof
beyond a reasonable doubt.
746
00:47:49,709 --> 00:47:53,333
If you go through and you look
at who actually created
747
00:47:53,417 --> 00:47:55,583
this suicidal situation,
748
00:47:55,667 --> 00:47:58,542
he brought her,
with all of her baggage,
749
00:47:58,625 --> 00:48:01,709
along for this sad journey
of his
750
00:48:01,792 --> 00:48:03,875
to eventually take his own life.
751
00:48:03,959 --> 00:48:05,375
RAYBURN: Despite his issues,
752
00:48:05,458 --> 00:48:08,417
Conrad Roy was a very
self-aware young man.
753
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:11,083
He knew when he needed help.
754
00:48:11,166 --> 00:48:13,291
You know what he said was
the one reason
755
00:48:13,375 --> 00:48:16,792
that he wanted to live?
His family.
756
00:48:16,875 --> 00:48:19,667
Before the defendant got
her hooks into him
757
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:24,458
and started telling him to die
every day, he was hopeful.
758
00:48:24,542 --> 00:48:28,041
CATALDO: This is a gentleman
who was sadly subjected
759
00:48:28,125 --> 00:48:29,792
to domestic violence.
760
00:48:29,875 --> 00:48:33,959
In fact, he tells that he had
daily intrusive thoughts
761
00:48:34,041 --> 00:48:35,792
of witnessing
domestic violence.
762
00:48:35,875 --> 00:48:38,083
Those are his words
he's telling his therapist
763
00:48:38,166 --> 00:48:39,917
in the counselors
in the records, Your Honor.
764
00:48:40,041 --> 00:48:42,750
RAYBURN: During the days
leading up to this, Your Honor,
765
00:48:42,834 --> 00:48:47,166
he told her, "I'm scared.
I don't have it in me.
766
00:48:47,250 --> 00:48:50,000
Another day wouldn't hurt."
767
00:48:50,083 --> 00:48:53,417
Every time he came up
with an excuse not to do it,
768
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:55,834
she kicked his feet out
right from under him
769
00:48:55,917 --> 00:48:57,917
and told him why
it didn't matter,
770
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,959
why he still needed to die.
771
00:49:00,041 --> 00:49:03,750
Mr. Roy himself
stated to Michelle Carter,
772
00:49:03,834 --> 00:49:05,125
"I want to die."
773
00:49:05,208 --> 00:49:08,250
Straight up. Those words.
"I want to die."
774
00:49:08,333 --> 00:49:11,250
To turn around and say
she's bullying him
775
00:49:11,333 --> 00:49:14,417
or she got him to do something
he didn't want to do,
776
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:17,750
he's asking her,
"You want to help?"
777
00:49:17,834 --> 00:49:20,583
His words. "You want to help?"
778
00:49:20,667 --> 00:49:23,208
He doesn't tell her,
"Stop this.
779
00:49:23,291 --> 00:49:27,583
Don't call me, lose my number,
stop texting me, block call,"
780
00:49:27,667 --> 00:49:30,959
nothing of the like.
He continues to use her
781
00:49:31,041 --> 00:49:34,291
for his support
to carry out his plan.
782
00:49:34,375 --> 00:49:36,041
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
783
00:49:39,250 --> 00:49:41,041
CATALDO:
He goes down to K-mart.
784
00:49:41,125 --> 00:49:44,750
He doesn't do a U-turn.
Not seeking any help.
785
00:49:44,834 --> 00:49:48,166
Police department down the road
a half a mile.
786
00:49:48,250 --> 00:49:51,250
He has his cell phone with him.
What's he do?
787
00:49:51,333 --> 00:49:52,542
He actually--
In the phone records,
788
00:49:52,625 --> 00:49:53,959
he calls Michelle Carter.
789
00:49:54,041 --> 00:49:55,792
The first phone call
right there, he calls her.
790
00:49:55,875 --> 00:49:58,417
He doesn't call 911.
Doesn't call anybody else,
791
00:49:58,500 --> 00:49:59,500
he calls Michelle.
792
00:49:59,583 --> 00:50:01,083
I suggest why?
Because he knows
793
00:50:01,166 --> 00:50:04,333
that she is encouraging
and supporting his plan.
794
00:50:04,417 --> 00:50:06,291
(PHONE RINGING)
795
00:50:07,709 --> 00:50:09,709
RAYBURN: She created the harm,
Your Honor,
796
00:50:09,792 --> 00:50:12,166
when she told him
to get back in the car.
797
00:50:12,250 --> 00:50:13,417
(PHONE RINGING)
798
00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:16,000
He was scared.
She knows he's gonna die
799
00:50:16,083 --> 00:50:19,667
and she says, "I could've done
something to stop it,
800
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:23,709
and if I had he would still
be alive today."
801
00:50:23,792 --> 00:50:27,667
She-- By her own admission,
she caused his death.
802
00:50:27,750 --> 00:50:31,875
She knew at that moment
he did not want to die.
803
00:50:31,959 --> 00:50:36,000
The Commonwealth is conflating
this idea of "he was scared"
804
00:50:36,083 --> 00:50:38,166
as "he didn't want to do it."
805
00:50:38,250 --> 00:50:40,834
That's what they're doing;
they're saying he-- he told--
806
00:50:40,917 --> 00:50:44,166
Michelle told a friend that
Conrad got out of the car
807
00:50:44,250 --> 00:50:46,166
and he was scared
because it was working.
808
00:50:46,250 --> 00:50:48,333
So, Conrad apparently knew
it was working
809
00:50:48,417 --> 00:50:50,000
and yet chose to get back in.
810
00:50:50,083 --> 00:50:51,959
But because he was scared
or afraid,
811
00:50:52,041 --> 00:50:54,291
they want to basically
replace that word,
812
00:50:54,375 --> 00:50:57,667
that somehow, therefore,
after that,
813
00:50:57,750 --> 00:51:01,417
by going back in the car,
that wasn't his own decision.
814
00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:03,458
He chose to get in that car.
815
00:51:03,542 --> 00:51:05,792
He chose
to breathe in the fumes.
816
00:51:05,875 --> 00:51:07,458
There's no evidence
that Michelle Carter
817
00:51:07,542 --> 00:51:11,875
has any physical actions
whatsoever in this case.
818
00:51:11,959 --> 00:51:15,166
It was all of his
physical activity.
819
00:51:15,250 --> 00:51:17,917
Did he get back in the car?
Yes.
820
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,959
But she was the cause of that,
Your Honor;
821
00:51:20,041 --> 00:51:21,750
she ordered him back
in that car
822
00:51:21,834 --> 00:51:23,542
knowing what would happen.
823
00:51:23,625 --> 00:51:25,417
It's a new day and age,
Your Honor.
824
00:51:25,500 --> 00:51:27,750
And the phones that we have now
825
00:51:27,834 --> 00:51:30,834
allow you to be
virtually present with somebody.
826
00:51:30,917 --> 00:51:34,834
People fall in love
on the Internet and via text.
827
00:51:34,917 --> 00:51:38,458
People bully via text
and the Internet.
828
00:51:38,542 --> 00:51:42,750
And you can encourage someone
to die via text
829
00:51:42,834 --> 00:51:46,291
and you can commit a crime
via text.
830
00:51:46,375 --> 00:51:49,583
She absolutely knew
what she was doing.
831
00:51:49,667 --> 00:51:54,166
She absolutely knew it was wrong
and she absolutely
832
00:51:54,250 --> 00:51:56,542
caused the death
of this 18-year-old boy.
833
00:51:56,625 --> 00:51:58,750
And I ask you
to find her guilty.
834
00:51:58,834 --> 00:52:00,959
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
835
00:52:13,083 --> 00:52:15,625
This world is sick today,
in my opinion.
836
00:52:15,709 --> 00:52:18,000
No one has any morals.
837
00:52:18,083 --> 00:52:20,000
Lack of character.
838
00:52:20,083 --> 00:52:23,333
Uh. I just find it-- I just
find it very troubling today.
839
00:52:23,417 --> 00:52:25,667
Because the right thing to do
would've been for her
840
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:27,583
to go get him help.
841
00:52:27,667 --> 00:52:30,792
He wanted to get out of the car,
I believe. He did get out.
842
00:52:30,875 --> 00:52:35,000
She told him to get back in,
quote, unquote, and do it.
843
00:52:35,083 --> 00:52:38,208
I'm sorry but she--
she deserves manslaughter.
844
00:52:38,291 --> 00:52:39,667
Absolutely.
845
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:42,375
I honestly think
it was foul what she did.
846
00:52:42,458 --> 00:52:44,125
She really shouldn't
have done that.
847
00:52:44,208 --> 00:52:45,583
I mean,
if you really love somebody
848
00:52:45,667 --> 00:52:47,458
you don't encourage them
to kill themselves.
849
00:52:47,542 --> 00:52:49,458
That's just--
That's absolutely crazy.
850
00:52:49,542 --> 00:52:51,166
-It's kind of like murder.
-So, it's--
851
00:52:51,250 --> 00:52:53,208
it's basically murder,
is how I see it in my eyes.
852
00:52:53,291 --> 00:52:54,750
It's basically murder.
853
00:52:54,834 --> 00:52:57,667
She was pretty much saying,
"Just do it."
854
00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:59,417
WOMAN: But there's nothing
illegal about that.
855
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:01,041
And then--
And then didn't he stop,
856
00:53:01,125 --> 00:53:02,583
and then she said,
"What are you doing?
857
00:53:02,667 --> 00:53:05,083
Get back in the car.
You already have it all set up.
858
00:53:05,166 --> 00:53:07,125
You know, just end it already."
859
00:53:07,208 --> 00:53:08,583
WOMAN: Wow.
860
00:53:08,667 --> 00:53:10,667
But that's more of
a moral thing, I think.
861
00:53:10,750 --> 00:53:12,417
But there's nothing illegal
about it.
862
00:53:12,500 --> 00:53:14,792
-No, there's actually
nothing wrong with it.
-No, no.
863
00:53:14,875 --> 00:53:16,750
-She's not guilty.
She didn't do anything illegal.
-No. I wouldn't say that
864
00:53:16,834 --> 00:53:18,417
-she didn't...
-What she did was wrong,
865
00:53:18,500 --> 00:53:20,208
-but it's not illegal.
-That's like me telling you
866
00:53:20,291 --> 00:53:22,333
to jump off a bridge. If you
jump off it, is it my fault?
867
00:53:22,417 --> 00:53:23,917
MAN: Yeah.
868
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,500
She would've said to him,
"Jump-- Jump over the bridge."
869
00:53:26,583 --> 00:53:28,500
He would've done it,
so therefore it's--
870
00:53:28,583 --> 00:53:30,500
it is her fault.
871
00:53:30,583 --> 00:53:33,583
MAN: How can this woman be held
responsible for something that
872
00:53:33,667 --> 00:53:35,083
she in essence did not do
873
00:53:35,166 --> 00:53:37,625
and he had free will
over his actions?
874
00:53:37,709 --> 00:53:39,291
It's mind boggling to me.
875
00:53:39,375 --> 00:53:41,917
If she was telling him to
rob a bank and he robbed a bank
876
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,375
is she responsible for this
when he went in and--
877
00:53:45,458 --> 00:53:48,333
and did those actions
voluntarily? I-- I don't know.
878
00:53:48,417 --> 00:53:51,333
I just don't see how you can,
uh, punish this girl
879
00:53:51,417 --> 00:53:53,542
the rest of her life for this.
880
00:53:53,625 --> 00:53:57,041
My wife and I talk about this
and, you know,
881
00:53:57,125 --> 00:54:00,208
she thinks in one direction
and I think in the other.
882
00:54:00,291 --> 00:54:02,417
That's 'cause we're married,
go figure.
883
00:54:02,500 --> 00:54:06,166
She thinks it's more
the responsibility of the victim
884
00:54:06,250 --> 00:54:10,166
than the responsibility of the--
the young lady, you know?
885
00:54:10,250 --> 00:54:12,417
Uh. And I can see her point.
886
00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:19,542
I think it was more immoral
or, uh, unethical, you know,
887
00:54:19,625 --> 00:54:21,792
to not report that to somebody.
888
00:54:21,875 --> 00:54:24,041
I don't know.
I guess it's on the judge,
889
00:54:24,125 --> 00:54:27,083
how he's gonna--
how he's gonna rule it.
890
00:54:27,166 --> 00:54:30,959
Certainly wouldn't want to
date her next. (CHUCKLES)
891
00:54:32,041 --> 00:54:34,000
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
892
00:54:37,166 --> 00:54:38,375
MIKE MONTECALVO:
Breaking news:
893
00:54:38,458 --> 00:54:40,000
The judge has reached a verdict
894
00:54:40,083 --> 00:54:41,750
in the Michelle Carter
manslaughter trial.
895
00:54:41,834 --> 00:54:44,792
NEWS ANCHOR: This is
a highly anticipated decision
896
00:54:44,875 --> 00:54:46,625
of whether Michelle Carter
is guilty
897
00:54:46,709 --> 00:54:49,458
of involuntary manslaughter
in her boyfriend,
898
00:54:49,542 --> 00:54:51,291
Conrad Roy's death.
899
00:54:51,375 --> 00:54:52,959
OFFICER 1: Come on,
get out of there.
900
00:54:53,041 --> 00:54:54,750
-OFFICER 2: Come on.
-OFFICER 1: Get out of there.
901
00:54:54,834 --> 00:54:56,250
REPORTER: Judge Lawrence Moniz
902
00:54:56,333 --> 00:54:58,500
took just two days
to decide this.
903
00:54:58,583 --> 00:55:00,583
He will announce
it at 11:00 AM.
904
00:55:02,875 --> 00:55:04,333
(CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING)
905
00:55:06,375 --> 00:55:07,792
REPORTER 2:
Michelle Carter's fate
906
00:55:07,875 --> 00:55:09,542
now in the hands
of the judge,
907
00:55:09,625 --> 00:55:11,458
who will render
the ultimate verdict.
908
00:55:11,542 --> 00:55:13,917
REPORTER 3: And at the
center of this trial,
909
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:18,041
whether it's a crime to
tell someone to commit suicide.
910
00:55:19,041 --> 00:55:20,458
Good afternoon, everyone.
911
00:55:20,542 --> 00:55:22,667
COURTROOM OCCUPANTS:
Good afternoon, Your Honor.
912
00:55:24,583 --> 00:55:26,834
JUDGE MONIZ:
The law does not require
913
00:55:26,917 --> 00:55:29,709
that any explanation
as to a verdict be given.
914
00:55:31,375 --> 00:55:36,083
Nonetheless, (CLEARS THROAT)
I am of the opinion
915
00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:42,583
that some explanation of
my verdicts is warranted.
916
00:55:42,667 --> 00:55:45,750
I have essentially divided
the evidence in this case
917
00:55:45,834 --> 00:55:47,583
into three components.
918
00:55:48,709 --> 00:55:50,333
The first component
919
00:55:50,417 --> 00:55:56,542
comprises roughly the period
of June 29th, 2014
920
00:55:56,625 --> 00:55:58,875
through the ending of
the text messages
921
00:55:58,959 --> 00:56:05,959
between Miss Carter and Mr. Roy
on or about July 12th, 2014.
922
00:56:07,291 --> 00:56:11,875
The second period commences
immediately thereafter,
923
00:56:11,959 --> 00:56:16,625
through July 13th, 2014.
924
00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:20,792
This court first finds
925
00:56:20,875 --> 00:56:22,792
that the Commonwealth
has proven
926
00:56:22,875 --> 00:56:25,500
beyond a reasonable doubt
927
00:56:25,583 --> 00:56:28,625
that the actions taken
by Miss Carter
928
00:56:28,709 --> 00:56:33,417
as to the period from June 30th
to July 12th
929
00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:38,083
constituted wanton
and reckless conduct by her,
930
00:56:39,709 --> 00:56:43,667
and serious disregard
of the well-being of Mr. Roy.
931
00:56:46,208 --> 00:56:52,709
The Commonwealth has not proven,
as to that time period,
932
00:56:52,792 --> 00:56:56,166
that said reckless
or wanton behavior
933
00:56:56,250 --> 00:56:58,750
caused the death of Mr. Roy.
934
00:57:01,917 --> 00:57:04,583
Mr. Roy was struggling
with his issues
935
00:57:04,667 --> 00:57:08,792
and took significant actions
of his own.
936
00:57:08,875 --> 00:57:12,166
He secured the generator.
He secured the water pump.
937
00:57:12,250 --> 00:57:15,667
He researched how to fix
the generator.
938
00:57:17,875 --> 00:57:21,625
He located his vehicle
in an unnoticeable area
939
00:57:21,709 --> 00:57:25,375
and commenced his attempt
by starting the pump.
940
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:34,125
However, he breaks that chain
of self-causation
941
00:57:35,709 --> 00:57:37,667
by exiting the vehicle.
942
00:57:38,917 --> 00:57:42,709
He takes himself out of
the toxic environment
943
00:57:42,792 --> 00:57:45,417
that it has become.
944
00:57:45,500 --> 00:57:51,375
When Miss Carter realizes that
Mr. Roy has exited the truck,
945
00:57:51,458 --> 00:57:55,083
she instructs him to get back
into the truck,
946
00:57:56,667 --> 00:58:01,208
which she has reason to know
is or is becoming
947
00:58:01,291 --> 00:58:05,750
a toxic environment
inconsistent with human life.
948
00:58:07,875 --> 00:58:11,041
This court finds
where one's action
949
00:58:11,125 --> 00:58:14,625
create a life-threatening risk
to another,
950
00:58:14,709 --> 00:58:18,208
there is a duty
to take reasonable steps
951
00:58:18,291 --> 00:58:20,709
to alleviate the risk.
952
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,166
The reckless failure
to fulfill this duty
953
00:58:25,250 --> 00:58:28,041
can result in a charge
of manslaughter.
954
00:58:30,125 --> 00:58:33,500
Knowing that Mr. Roy
is in the truck,
955
00:58:33,583 --> 00:58:37,125
knowing the condition
of the truck,
956
00:58:37,208 --> 00:58:40,709
Miss Carter takes no action
957
00:58:40,792 --> 00:58:44,291
in the furtherance of the duty
that she has created
958
00:58:44,375 --> 00:58:47,417
by instructing Mr. Roy
to get back into the truck.
959
00:58:49,083 --> 00:58:53,000
Consequently, this court
has found that the Commonwealth
960
00:58:53,083 --> 00:58:55,542
has proven
beyond a reasonable doubt
961
00:58:55,625 --> 00:59:00,542
that Miss Carter's actions
and also her failure to act
962
00:59:00,625 --> 00:59:04,166
where she had a self-created
duty to Mr. Roy,
963
00:59:04,250 --> 00:59:09,542
constituted each and all
wanton and reckless conduct.
964
00:59:09,625 --> 00:59:12,041
And this court further finds
that the Commonwealth
965
00:59:12,125 --> 00:59:14,542
has proven
beyond a reasonable doubt
966
00:59:14,625 --> 00:59:19,375
that said conduct
caused the death of Mr. Roy.
967
00:59:19,458 --> 00:59:20,959
Miss Carter, please stand.
968
00:59:23,917 --> 00:59:28,083
This court,
having reviewed the evidence
969
00:59:28,166 --> 00:59:31,083
and applied the law thereto,
970
00:59:31,166 --> 00:59:36,083
now finds you guilty
on the indictment charging you
971
00:59:36,166 --> 00:59:38,333
with the involuntary
manslaughter
972
00:59:38,417 --> 00:59:40,959
of the person Conrad Roy III.
973
00:59:42,083 --> 00:59:43,583
You may be seated.
974
00:59:43,667 --> 00:59:47,458
That verdict is now recorded
and it is in writing as well.
975
00:59:47,542 --> 00:59:51,208
This matter will stand
continued to August 3rd
976
00:59:51,291 --> 00:59:53,709
for a sentencing hearing.
Thank you very much.
977
00:59:53,792 --> 00:59:55,125
COURT CLERK: All rise.
978
00:59:56,834 --> 00:59:58,542
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
979
01:00:01,417 --> 01:00:03,125
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
980
01:00:03,208 --> 01:00:06,250
Very, very disappointed
with the outcome,
981
01:00:06,333 --> 01:00:08,709
however, because the case
is still pending,
982
01:00:08,792 --> 01:00:10,583
beyond saying I'm disappointed,
983
01:00:10,667 --> 01:00:12,875
I'm not gonna comment
any further, so, um,
984
01:00:12,959 --> 01:00:14,125
thank you all.
985
01:00:14,208 --> 01:00:15,583
REPORTER 1:
Do you have an appeal plan?
986
01:00:15,667 --> 01:00:17,083
REPORTER 2:
Are you surprised though?
987
01:00:17,166 --> 01:00:21,166
(CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICKING)
988
01:00:28,458 --> 01:00:29,625
RAYBURN: Good afternoon.
989
01:00:29,709 --> 01:00:31,250
Since we still have to return
to court
990
01:00:31,333 --> 01:00:33,000
for the sentencing phase
of this case,
991
01:00:33,083 --> 01:00:34,792
I will keep my comments brief.
992
01:00:34,875 --> 01:00:36,500
Although we are very pleased
with the verdict,
993
01:00:36,583 --> 01:00:39,250
in reality, there are no winners
here today.
994
01:00:39,333 --> 01:00:41,208
Conrad, an 18-year-old boy,
is dead,
995
01:00:41,291 --> 01:00:43,750
and the young woman--
a young woman is now convicted
996
01:00:43,834 --> 01:00:45,041
of causing his death.
997
01:00:45,125 --> 01:00:47,083
Two families have been
torn apart
998
01:00:47,166 --> 01:00:49,583
and will be affected by this
for years to come.
999
01:00:49,667 --> 01:00:51,458
This was a unique case
that dealt with
1000
01:00:51,542 --> 01:00:54,166
a lot of important issues
in our society today.
1001
01:00:54,250 --> 01:00:56,792
But in the end,
the case was really about
1002
01:00:56,875 --> 01:00:59,250
one young man
and one young woman
1003
01:00:59,333 --> 01:01:02,375
who were brought together
by tragic circumstances.
1004
01:01:03,667 --> 01:01:06,500
-(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
-(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
1005
01:01:08,333 --> 01:01:11,000
(INDISTINCT CHATTER, CLAMORING)
1006
01:01:11,083 --> 01:01:13,375
REPORTER 1: What do you want
the sentence to be?
1007
01:01:16,417 --> 01:01:18,041
REPORTER 1: What do you want
the sentence to be?
1008
01:01:18,125 --> 01:01:19,875
REPORTER 2: Are you satisfied
with what happened though?
1009
01:01:19,959 --> 01:01:21,709
Do you feel like you get
some relief?
1010
01:01:21,792 --> 01:01:23,333
REPORTER 3: Mr. Roy,
what kind of relief
1011
01:01:23,417 --> 01:01:25,000
are you feeling right now?
1012
01:01:25,083 --> 01:01:28,667
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
1013
01:01:28,750 --> 01:01:30,625
-WOMAN: Come on.
-Careful behind you.
1014
01:01:34,291 --> 01:01:36,917
Reporter 4: Would you like
to say anything to the judge?
1015
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:38,709
WOMAN: Justice for Conrad.
1016
01:01:38,792 --> 01:01:42,083
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
1017
01:01:42,166 --> 01:01:44,166
REPORTER 5: Hey guys.
tell us how you feel?
1018
01:01:44,250 --> 01:01:45,333
No comment.
1019
01:01:45,417 --> 01:01:47,375
WOMAN: Come on,
get the door unlocked.
1020
01:01:47,458 --> 01:01:49,083
REPORTER 6: Can you tell us
what you think
1021
01:01:49,166 --> 01:01:50,250
about this verdict?
1022
01:01:52,417 --> 01:01:55,375
Can you just tell us what you
think about the verdict?
1023
01:01:55,458 --> 01:01:57,291
Do you feel like
justice was served here?
1024
01:01:57,375 --> 01:01:59,583
WOMAN: Watch out. Excuse me.
1025
01:02:10,625 --> 01:02:14,458
There are many, uh, verdicts
that you'll see,
1026
01:02:14,542 --> 01:02:16,583
whether I've been involved
in them or, you know,
1027
01:02:16,667 --> 01:02:19,041
many cases that I haven't
been involved, you'll say,
1028
01:02:19,125 --> 01:02:22,166
"Well, this prosecution really
has the law on their side.
1029
01:02:22,250 --> 01:02:24,166
They have the facts
on their side.
1030
01:02:24,250 --> 01:02:26,834
Uh, I don't think that
that was the case here.
1031
01:02:26,917 --> 01:02:28,625
I think, you know, people--
1032
01:02:28,709 --> 01:02:30,208
There are plenty of people
who are still
1033
01:02:30,291 --> 01:02:33,208
scratching their head,
thinking, "How is this a crime?"
1034
01:02:33,291 --> 01:02:35,583
How could the judge
do what he did
1035
01:02:35,667 --> 01:02:37,667
and find her guilty
on this evidence?
1036
01:02:37,750 --> 01:02:41,417
In rendering his verdict,
he went so far as to say
1037
01:02:41,500 --> 01:02:46,750
up until the point in time
that Conrad was in the truck
1038
01:02:46,834 --> 01:02:51,166
with the water pump going,
it was on Conrad Roy;
1039
01:02:51,250 --> 01:02:53,166
Michelle would not have
been found guilty.
1040
01:02:53,250 --> 01:02:56,000
Then it turned on a dime
and said, however,
1041
01:02:56,083 --> 01:03:00,583
when he got out of his truck,
she had a self-created duty,
1042
01:03:00,667 --> 01:03:03,166
knowing that he was getting
back into the car,
1043
01:03:03,250 --> 01:03:05,875
to prevent it when she
wasn't physically present.
1044
01:03:05,959 --> 01:03:09,750
Um, that's when it obviously
went downhill and that was, uh,
1045
01:03:09,834 --> 01:03:13,125
was somewhat of a surprise
to hear him saying that.
1046
01:03:13,208 --> 01:03:15,333
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
1047
01:03:20,583 --> 01:03:23,458
BARRON: The huge question
at the heart of this case
1048
01:03:23,542 --> 01:03:27,834
is whether Michelle told Conrad
to get back in the truck.
1049
01:03:27,917 --> 01:03:29,959
It's a big question
because there's--
1050
01:03:30,041 --> 01:03:32,000
there's meta-data
for the phone calls.
1051
01:03:32,083 --> 01:03:34,125
But there's no recordings.
1052
01:03:34,208 --> 01:03:37,291
So, there's absolutely no way
to know whether
1053
01:03:37,375 --> 01:03:39,750
Michelle telling him
to get back in the truck
1054
01:03:39,834 --> 01:03:42,875
was an event that took place,
whether it was something
1055
01:03:42,959 --> 01:03:45,125
that she wanted people
to think had happened.
1056
01:03:45,208 --> 01:03:47,709
Whether it was like
a manifestation of her guilt.
1057
01:03:48,542 --> 01:03:49,792
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
1058
01:03:49,875 --> 01:03:52,041
BARRON: Why did Michelle
wait two months
1059
01:03:52,125 --> 01:03:53,583
to tell Samantha Boardman,
1060
01:03:53,667 --> 01:03:55,375
"I told him to get back
in the truck"?
1061
01:03:56,500 --> 01:03:58,583
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
1062
01:04:07,750 --> 01:04:11,625
I don't think we can know that
Michelle's story is at all true.
1063
01:04:11,709 --> 01:04:14,917
It's not-- I don't think
it's a true story.
1064
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:16,792
There's no text she said it.
1065
01:04:16,875 --> 01:04:21,166
There's no recording of
a phone that she said it.
1066
01:04:21,250 --> 01:04:26,166
Michelle frequently made
contradictory statements.
1067
01:04:26,250 --> 01:04:30,208
One of the most striking was
that she told her friends
1068
01:04:30,291 --> 01:04:32,667
that she had never had sex.
1069
01:04:32,750 --> 01:04:33,917
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
1070
01:04:46,917 --> 01:04:50,667
Then she told a friend that
she had had sex with,
1071
01:04:50,750 --> 01:04:51,875
uh, Conrad.
1072
01:04:51,959 --> 01:04:53,458
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERTS)
1073
01:05:02,333 --> 01:05:06,166
Then she told her friend
that Conrad had raped her.
1074
01:05:06,250 --> 01:05:08,750
That he had forced himself
on her.
1075
01:05:08,834 --> 01:05:10,000
(TEXT MESSAGE ALERT)
1076
01:05:18,458 --> 01:05:22,667
What's scary about Michelle's
description of being assaulted
1077
01:05:22,750 --> 01:05:25,083
is, uh, that her friends
don't believe her.
1078
01:05:25,166 --> 01:05:27,542
That there's a sense that,
like,
1079
01:05:27,625 --> 01:05:29,417
Michelle says some stuff
that's true
1080
01:05:29,500 --> 01:05:33,625
and some stuff that's not true
and everyone kind of knows it.
1081
01:05:33,709 --> 01:05:37,792
I didn't see the DA
bringing that up and saying,
1082
01:05:37,875 --> 01:05:40,917
"Well,
Michelle was raped by Conrad.
1083
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,750
How do we know
she was raped by Conrad?
1084
01:05:43,834 --> 01:05:46,792
She actually told somebody
in a text."
1085
01:05:46,875 --> 01:05:50,417
The DA said again and again
1086
01:05:50,500 --> 01:05:53,625
she was a liar
who couldn't be trusted
1087
01:05:53,709 --> 01:05:57,875
because the DA was obsessed
with not making her sympathetic
1088
01:05:57,959 --> 01:06:01,458
without realizing she was
undermining her own case.
1089
01:06:01,542 --> 01:06:06,208
But this is the constant
twisting by the DA of data
1090
01:06:06,291 --> 01:06:09,542
so that it became impossible
to disentangle.
1091
01:06:12,792 --> 01:06:16,375
Most of America believes
that she
1092
01:06:16,458 --> 01:06:18,959
texted him this in writing.
1093
01:06:19,041 --> 01:06:20,625
NEWS ANCHOR:
According to prosecutors,
1094
01:06:20,709 --> 01:06:22,792
Carter even texting him to get
back in the truck
1095
01:06:22,875 --> 01:06:24,625
when he has second thoughts.
1096
01:06:24,709 --> 01:06:27,000
BREGGIN: And when I meet people
in airports
1097
01:06:27,083 --> 01:06:28,583
and I'd say to them, uh,
1098
01:06:28,667 --> 01:06:31,250
"Hey folks,
do you know about this--
1099
01:06:31,333 --> 01:06:33,208
this, uh, lady, uh, you know,
1100
01:06:33,291 --> 01:06:35,250
who supposedly told
her boyfriend to kill himself?"
1101
01:06:35,333 --> 01:06:38,166
"Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
She-- She texted her to death."
1102
01:06:38,250 --> 01:06:39,625
I said, "Would you believe
1103
01:06:39,709 --> 01:06:41,083
that there was never anything
written down?
1104
01:06:41,166 --> 01:06:42,458
We have no written record."
1105
01:06:42,542 --> 01:06:44,250
"No, Doc."
1106
01:06:44,333 --> 01:06:45,583
And people get mad.
1107
01:06:45,667 --> 01:06:48,000
They say things like
fake news again.
1108
01:06:48,083 --> 01:06:50,709
They we're just cherry picking
when to believe Michelle
1109
01:06:50,792 --> 01:06:52,417
and when not
to believe Michelle.
1110
01:06:54,083 --> 01:06:55,709
We are appealing the verdict,
1111
01:06:55,792 --> 01:06:58,417
and we'll appeal it
for as long as it takes.
1112
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,500
To now treat this juvenile
1113
01:07:03,583 --> 01:07:07,333
as, uh, somebody who committed
a homicide,
1114
01:07:07,417 --> 01:07:10,917
I think is, uh, unfair, unjust
and illegal,
1115
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,959
and I think eventually
the court system will see it.
1116
01:07:14,041 --> 01:07:15,917
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
1117
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:32,834
WOMAN: Here's Michelle
coming in right now.
1118
01:07:33,917 --> 01:07:35,250
WOMAN IN CROWD:
1119
01:07:35,333 --> 01:07:37,291
MAN IN CROWD: Keep your head up.
Love you, Michelle.
1120
01:07:38,041 --> 01:07:39,583
WOMAN IN CROWD:
1121
01:07:40,583 --> 01:07:42,792
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
1122
01:08:15,625 --> 01:08:17,333
MARYCLARE FLYNN: Your Honor,
the Commonwealth is asking
1123
01:08:17,417 --> 01:08:20,000
this court to impose a sentence
of not less than seven,
1124
01:08:20,083 --> 01:08:23,208
no more than 12 years
in state prison.
1125
01:08:23,291 --> 01:08:25,291
Your Honor,
as the evidence proved,
1126
01:08:25,375 --> 01:08:28,750
the facts in this case
are egregious.
1127
01:08:28,834 --> 01:08:32,500
There is no earthly reason
why Conrad Henri Roy
1128
01:08:32,583 --> 01:08:36,041
should not be here today
with his loving family,
1129
01:08:36,667 --> 01:08:38,208
enjoying life,
1130
01:08:38,291 --> 01:08:41,208
sharing his many gifts
with the world.
1131
01:08:41,291 --> 01:08:45,000
But he is not
and the reason he is not here
1132
01:08:45,083 --> 01:08:48,000
is the defendant,
Michelle Carter.
1133
01:08:48,083 --> 01:08:51,291
Her actions killed Conrad Roy.
1134
01:08:51,375 --> 01:08:54,667
She ended his life
to better her own.
1135
01:08:54,750 --> 01:08:56,417
For all of these reasons,
Your Honor,
1136
01:08:56,500 --> 01:08:59,041
the Commonwealth respectfully
asks this court
1137
01:08:59,125 --> 01:09:01,291
to impose our recommendation.
Thank you.
1138
01:09:01,375 --> 01:09:03,750
JUDGE MONIZ:
Thank you, Miss Flynn.
1139
01:09:03,834 --> 01:09:06,208
Who speaks for the defendant?
1140
01:09:06,291 --> 01:09:09,041
Mr. Cataldo, do you have
any evidence to present?
1141
01:09:10,875 --> 01:09:13,583
Um, Your Honor,
I will summarize by saying,
1142
01:09:13,667 --> 01:09:15,917
as this court is well aware,
1143
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:19,750
we're guided with the idea
in the juvenile justice system
1144
01:09:19,834 --> 01:09:24,583
that the goal is not punitive
but yet rehabilitative.
1145
01:09:24,667 --> 01:09:27,792
Miss Carter was 17 years old
at the time.
1146
01:09:27,875 --> 01:09:31,458
We have a body of law from both
the United States Supreme Court
1147
01:09:31,542 --> 01:09:32,834
as well as the SJC
1148
01:09:32,917 --> 01:09:35,417
about the adolescent
brain development,
1149
01:09:35,500 --> 01:09:38,667
what a court can consider
on sentencing.
1150
01:09:38,750 --> 01:09:40,875
And there is a clear body
that says
1151
01:09:40,959 --> 01:09:45,000
adolescents are not as culpable
as full-grown adults.
1152
01:09:45,083 --> 01:09:48,542
Miss Carter will have to live
with the consequences of this
1153
01:09:48,625 --> 01:09:49,959
for the rest of her life,
1154
01:09:50,041 --> 01:09:52,417
with the publicity
that this case has gained.
1155
01:09:52,500 --> 01:09:55,000
Um, that will be substantial.
1156
01:09:55,083 --> 01:09:57,333
Um, I think treatment
is appropriate
1157
01:09:57,417 --> 01:10:00,000
in this particular case
for Miss Carter.
1158
01:10:00,083 --> 01:10:03,709
Miss Carter does regret
what happened.
1159
01:10:03,792 --> 01:10:07,000
She also sent a letter
to the probation department
1160
01:10:07,083 --> 01:10:12,417
where she accepts responsibility
for her actions, her words,
1161
01:10:12,500 --> 01:10:14,875
her letter.
The court has reviewed all this.
1162
01:10:14,959 --> 01:10:19,583
Your Honor, I suggest that she
is not a danger to the public
1163
01:10:19,667 --> 01:10:23,875
and in the remedial system,
the juvenile system, uh,
1164
01:10:23,959 --> 01:10:27,333
probation is appropriate.
Thank you very much, Your Honor.
1165
01:10:27,417 --> 01:10:29,125
JUDGE MONIZ:
Thank you very much.
1166
01:10:29,208 --> 01:10:30,458
COURT CLERK: All rise.
1167
01:10:33,417 --> 01:10:35,917
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
1168
01:10:56,166 --> 01:10:57,834
COURT CLERK:
This court is now in session.
1169
01:10:57,917 --> 01:11:00,875
Be seated please. No talking
while court's in session.
1170
01:11:00,959 --> 01:11:03,500
JUDGE MONIZ: You need to
understand, all of you,
1171
01:11:05,125 --> 01:11:07,333
that this court has not
nor should it
1172
01:11:07,417 --> 01:11:10,667
allow any emotional response
to this case to enter
1173
01:11:10,750 --> 01:11:14,000
into its determinations
in any way.
1174
01:11:14,083 --> 01:11:19,792
Everyone is entitled to
a decision devoid of any emotion
1175
01:11:19,875 --> 01:11:21,792
with respect to this case.
1176
01:11:23,834 --> 01:11:26,875
Now I know that there has been
significant media coverage
1177
01:11:26,959 --> 01:11:28,667
of this case.
1178
01:11:28,750 --> 01:11:32,458
I assure you
that I have steadfastly avoided
1179
01:11:32,542 --> 01:11:34,750
any of that.
1180
01:11:34,834 --> 01:11:37,166
But by the end of today
people will wonder why
1181
01:11:37,250 --> 01:11:38,875
what has happened has happened.
1182
01:11:38,959 --> 01:11:41,250
People may wonder
why all of this has happened.
1183
01:11:42,542 --> 01:11:44,792
I have not found
1184
01:11:44,875 --> 01:11:49,000
that Miss Carter's age
or level of maturity
1185
01:11:50,125 --> 01:11:52,375
or even her mental illness
1186
01:11:54,709 --> 01:11:58,083
have any significant impact
on her actions.
1187
01:11:59,959 --> 01:12:02,792
She was a bright young lady,
did well in school,
1188
01:12:02,875 --> 01:12:08,375
and I am satisfied that she
was mindful of the actions
1189
01:12:08,458 --> 01:12:10,500
for which she now stands
convicted.
1190
01:12:12,333 --> 01:12:13,458
On the other hand,
1191
01:12:13,542 --> 01:12:16,083
even if the age
and the maturity level
1192
01:12:16,166 --> 01:12:21,208
of the person at the time that
they have committed the crime
1193
01:12:23,417 --> 01:12:27,041
doesn't gre-- doesn't garner
a great deal of significance,
1194
01:12:27,125 --> 01:12:31,291
the fact that they are still
of that young age
1195
01:12:31,375 --> 01:12:34,542
offers a greater promise
of rehabilitation.
1196
01:12:36,083 --> 01:12:37,458
Miss Carter, please stand.
1197
01:12:43,625 --> 01:12:47,041
Miss Carter, a guilty finding
having entered on the indictment
1198
01:12:47,125 --> 01:12:49,792
charging you with
the involuntary manslaughter
1199
01:12:51,458 --> 01:12:53,792
of Conrad Roy III
1200
01:12:53,875 --> 01:12:56,291
now sentences you to
two and a half years
1201
01:12:56,375 --> 01:12:58,625
in the Bristol County
House of Correction.
1202
01:13:00,333 --> 01:13:02,417
Fifteen months of said sentence
1203
01:13:02,500 --> 01:13:05,125
shall be deemed
a committed sentence
1204
01:13:05,208 --> 01:13:07,917
and the balance thereof
shall be suspended
1205
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:11,291
until August 1st of 2022.
1206
01:13:12,959 --> 01:13:17,208
That is the sentence
of the court. You may be seated.
1207
01:13:17,291 --> 01:13:19,250
Mr. Cataldo,
do you wish to be heard?
1208
01:13:19,333 --> 01:13:21,166
I do, Your Honor.
1209
01:13:21,250 --> 01:13:23,458
-May I approach?
-JUDGE MONIZ: You may.
1210
01:13:32,709 --> 01:13:34,750
CATALDO: Your Honor,
what I have just filed
1211
01:13:34,834 --> 01:13:37,041
is a motion to stay
the execution of the sentence.
1212
01:13:37,125 --> 01:13:40,125
JUDGE MONIZ: All right, let me
take a look at it please.
CATALDO: Okay, thank you.
1213
01:13:40,792 --> 01:13:43,500
(INAUDIBLE)
1214
01:13:51,542 --> 01:13:52,750
JUDGE MONIZ:
I guess we have all
1215
01:13:52,834 --> 01:13:54,291
come to know each other
a little bit.
1216
01:13:54,375 --> 01:13:57,250
I anticipated this motion,
Mr. Cataldo,
1217
01:13:57,333 --> 01:13:59,166
and I took some significant time
1218
01:13:59,250 --> 01:14:01,834
to review the case
of Commonwealth versus Hodge.
1219
01:14:01,917 --> 01:14:05,125
which is found at 380 Mass 851.
1220
01:14:05,208 --> 01:14:07,500
The conviction may be reversible
1221
01:14:07,583 --> 01:14:10,166
but the time spent in prison
is not.
1222
01:14:11,959 --> 01:14:17,208
I am satisfied that there is
an issue worthy of presentation
1223
01:14:17,291 --> 01:14:21,041
to the appellate court.
In fact, this court
1224
01:14:21,125 --> 01:14:23,959
believes that the wisdom
of the appellate court
1225
01:14:24,041 --> 01:14:28,041
will be of instruction now
and going forward.
1226
01:14:28,125 --> 01:14:30,959
I don't know what
the appeals court will do.
1227
01:14:31,041 --> 01:14:33,583
I don't know if it goes
to the SJC,
1228
01:14:33,667 --> 01:14:35,125
what the SJC will do.
1229
01:14:35,208 --> 01:14:38,417
But I am satisfied
that a grant of a stay
1230
01:14:38,500 --> 01:14:42,250
through the Massachusetts
court system only
1231
01:14:43,500 --> 01:14:44,875
is warranted.
1232
01:14:44,959 --> 01:14:48,959
This order will not encompass
anything with respect
1233
01:14:49,041 --> 01:14:51,125
to the federal system.
1234
01:14:51,208 --> 01:14:54,333
Is there anything further,
Mr. Cataldo or Mr. Madeira?
1235
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:56,041
One minute please.
1236
01:14:57,041 --> 01:14:58,166
(INAUDIBLE)
1237
01:15:03,959 --> 01:15:05,333
We're all set. Thank you.
1238
01:15:05,417 --> 01:15:07,125
JUDGE MONIZ:
And we are adjourned.
1239
01:15:07,208 --> 01:15:08,834
Thank you very much.
1240
01:15:08,917 --> 01:15:10,709
COURT CLERK: All rise.
1241
01:15:10,792 --> 01:15:12,750
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
1242
01:15:23,417 --> 01:15:25,417
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
1243
01:15:27,166 --> 01:15:28,834
I don't understand how
a month ago
1244
01:15:28,917 --> 01:15:30,834
it's a guilty verdict
giving the family hope
1245
01:15:30,917 --> 01:15:32,542
that there might be some type
of justice,
1246
01:15:32,625 --> 01:15:35,500
to just have her go home tonight
and have a nice meal.
1247
01:15:35,583 --> 01:15:37,166
I just don't get it.
Like I said,
1248
01:15:37,250 --> 01:15:39,375
it's saying to me...
I don't have a law degree,
1249
01:15:39,458 --> 01:15:42,083
I don't have... But it saying
as long I'm under 18,
1250
01:15:42,166 --> 01:15:43,417
I can bully anyone.
1251
01:15:44,875 --> 01:15:46,625
REPORTER:
Are you pleased with the stay?
1252
01:15:46,709 --> 01:15:49,542
Very much so, yes. Yes.
1253
01:15:49,625 --> 01:15:51,000
BARRON: You have to remember,
1254
01:15:51,083 --> 01:15:52,792
people were totally split
about this case.
1255
01:15:52,875 --> 01:15:55,709
So, the reason that it's
so interesting to me,
1256
01:15:55,792 --> 01:15:57,542
the-- like, the difference
between the conviction
1257
01:15:57,625 --> 01:15:59,000
and the sentencing,
1258
01:15:59,083 --> 01:16:02,041
is that it expresses
the complete kind of craziness
1259
01:16:02,125 --> 01:16:04,875
that this case drives people to
in terms of trying to come up
1260
01:16:04,959 --> 01:16:06,792
with, like,
one objective conclusion
1261
01:16:06,875 --> 01:16:08,333
of what should happen
to Michelle Carter.
1262
01:16:08,417 --> 01:16:10,500
REPORTER: If this appeal lingers
to 2022,
1263
01:16:10,583 --> 01:16:12,458
conceivably she will never
serve time in jail?
1264
01:16:12,542 --> 01:16:13,792
Conceivably, yes.
1265
01:16:15,625 --> 01:16:17,083
BARRON:
It's like you were responsible,
1266
01:16:17,166 --> 01:16:19,041
it was involuntary
manslaughter.
1267
01:16:19,125 --> 01:16:21,875
But you can basically never go
to jail?
1268
01:16:21,959 --> 01:16:23,417
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
1269
01:16:37,291 --> 01:16:39,542
I would be surprised
if she serves time.
1270
01:17:09,834 --> 01:17:12,291
JUDGE MONIZ: I have reviewed
1271
01:17:12,375 --> 01:17:13,709
the Commonwealth's motion
1272
01:17:13,792 --> 01:17:15,291
and have considered
the arguments
1273
01:17:15,375 --> 01:17:16,792
just presented to the court.
1274
01:17:16,875 --> 01:17:19,834
The court now allows
the Commonwealth's motion
1275
01:17:19,917 --> 01:17:22,458
to revoke the stay of sentence.
1276
01:17:22,542 --> 01:17:25,667
Miss Carter will now be taken
into custody.
1277
01:17:31,917 --> 01:17:33,500
JUDGE MONIZ:
This matter is adjourned.
1278
01:17:33,583 --> 01:17:34,625
Thank you very much.
1279
01:17:34,709 --> 01:17:35,917
COURT CLERK: All rise.
1280
01:17:37,208 --> 01:17:38,333
(DOOR SLAMS)
1281
01:17:41,667 --> 01:17:43,500
♪ (MUSIC PLAYS) ♪
94898
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