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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:01,268 --> 00:00:03,068 A website for cheaters gets hacked. 2 00:00:03,103 --> 00:00:07,139 This hack is one of the largest data breaches in the world. 3 00:00:07,174 --> 00:00:09,575 Private data is leaked online. 4 00:00:09,610 --> 00:00:12,444 My secrets, which are stored on somebody's server somewhere, 5 00:00:12,479 --> 00:00:14,846 there's a real chance that they might become public, 6 00:00:14,882 --> 00:00:17,249 and that might have real consequences upon my life. 7 00:00:17,284 --> 00:00:19,585 But what motivated the hackers? 8 00:00:19,620 --> 00:00:22,788 Who would hack into a company and do a data leak of this 9 00:00:22,823 --> 00:00:26,225 magnitude because they feel that they're ripping a customer off? 10 00:00:26,260 --> 00:00:28,827 And who's vows were broken? 11 00:00:28,862 --> 00:00:32,931 They figured out that there were 70,000 fembots on this site, 12 00:00:32,967 --> 00:00:35,867 and they were the women that were doing most of the chatter. 13 00:00:38,138 --> 00:00:48,146 ♪ 14 00:00:56,624 --> 00:00:58,657 It was a company that embraced controversy 15 00:00:58,692 --> 00:01:00,626 from the very beginning. 16 00:01:00,661 --> 00:01:03,328 For years, Toronto-based Avid Life Media was best known 17 00:01:03,364 --> 00:01:06,531 for its dating website, Ashley Madison. 18 00:01:06,567 --> 00:01:08,634 The site was promoted as a place for married people 19 00:01:08,669 --> 00:01:11,870 looking for casual hook-ups with other married people. 20 00:01:11,905 --> 00:01:14,539 Ashley Madison became really well known for its scandalous 21 00:01:14,575 --> 00:01:17,309 services, but also for its provocative ads, 22 00:01:17,344 --> 00:01:20,045 like this ridiculous example with an unforgettable jingle. 23 00:01:21,415 --> 00:01:25,417 ♪ Looking for someone other than my wife ♪ 24 00:01:25,452 --> 00:01:27,753 ♪ Other than my wife ♪ 25 00:01:27,788 --> 00:01:31,023 ♪ Ashley Madison's right ♪ 26 00:01:31,058 --> 00:01:35,227 ♪ I'm looking for someone other than my wife ♪ 27 00:01:35,262 --> 00:01:37,696 ♪ Other than my wife ♪ 28 00:01:37,731 --> 00:01:40,599 ♪ Ashley Madison is right ♪ 29 00:01:41,769 --> 00:01:44,002 But in the summer of 2015, Ashley Madison, 30 00:01:44,038 --> 00:01:47,205 a site built entirely on the principle of cheating covertly, 31 00:01:47,241 --> 00:01:49,474 was hacked and exposed. 32 00:01:49,510 --> 00:01:52,944 Everybody from the FBI and the Canadian Feds got involved, 33 00:01:52,980 --> 00:01:54,880 even the local Toronto cops. 34 00:01:54,915 --> 00:01:59,918 On July 12th, when several Avid Life Media employees 35 00:01:59,953 --> 00:02:03,155 arrived at work and powered up their laptops, 36 00:02:03,190 --> 00:02:07,726 a threatening message popped up on their screens 37 00:02:07,761 --> 00:02:11,029 which was accompanied by the song "Thunderstruck" by AC/DC, 38 00:02:11,065 --> 00:02:12,564 which was playing. 39 00:02:12,599 --> 00:02:14,766 The company had been hacked by a mysterious group 40 00:02:14,802 --> 00:02:17,402 who called themselves the Impact Team. 41 00:02:17,438 --> 00:02:20,439 The hackers demanded that Avid Life Media shut down its sites 42 00:02:20,474 --> 00:02:24,409 right away and for good, or they would release customer records, 43 00:02:24,445 --> 00:02:28,080 profiles with all the customers secret sexual fantasies, 44 00:02:28,115 --> 00:02:32,284 credit card transactions, real names, and company emails. 45 00:02:32,319 --> 00:02:34,686 At the time of the hack, Avid Life, 46 00:02:34,722 --> 00:02:36,922 the parent company of Ashley Madison, 47 00:02:36,957 --> 00:02:39,891 claimed millions of dollars in annual profits. 48 00:02:39,927 --> 00:02:43,228 On the surface, it's a totally controversial company because 49 00:02:43,263 --> 00:02:46,565 it's designed to help people break their marriage vows. 50 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,134 But there's nothing illegal about that. 51 00:02:49,169 --> 00:02:51,770 And it had 5 million members at the time, 52 00:02:51,805 --> 00:02:54,106 it was supposedly printing money. 53 00:02:54,141 --> 00:02:58,110 Tom Watson is an investigative reporter who profiled Avid Life 54 00:02:58,145 --> 00:03:00,645 for Canadian Business Magazine. 55 00:03:00,681 --> 00:03:04,082 That was back in 2010 when the company was trying to go public, 56 00:03:04,118 --> 00:03:07,152 which meant Avid Life Media needed to convince 57 00:03:07,187 --> 00:03:10,389 Canadian banks it was a solid investment for their customers. 58 00:03:12,292 --> 00:03:13,759 Financial markets, investment bankers 59 00:03:13,794 --> 00:03:16,261 are not the moral compass of society, right? 60 00:03:16,296 --> 00:03:17,662 (Laughing) No. 61 00:03:17,698 --> 00:03:19,264 No one looks to them to play that role. 62 00:03:19,299 --> 00:03:22,000 And being a business journalist at the time, 63 00:03:22,035 --> 00:03:25,003 I wanted to look at it strictly from the standpoint 64 00:03:25,038 --> 00:03:27,439 of what's an investment banker supposed to do. 65 00:03:27,474 --> 00:03:28,974 But, also being a journalist, 66 00:03:29,009 --> 00:03:31,376 I decided I should learn a bit more about the company. 67 00:03:31,412 --> 00:03:33,645 So I signed up, and one of the first things I found 68 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,681 was that not all women on the site were there 69 00:03:36,717 --> 00:03:38,884 just to break wedding vows. 70 00:03:40,954 --> 00:03:43,321 Tom requested an interview with GMP, 71 00:03:43,357 --> 00:03:45,757 the lead bank preparing to back Avid Life. 72 00:03:45,793 --> 00:03:48,026 The bankers agreed to chat, and he went to their office 73 00:03:48,061 --> 00:03:49,428 on a Friday afternoon. 74 00:03:51,165 --> 00:03:54,800 And they sat down and their key messages were pretty clear. 75 00:03:54,835 --> 00:03:56,701 "You know, Tom, we're an investment bank. 76 00:03:56,737 --> 00:03:59,070 This is a banking opportunity, clear cut. 77 00:03:59,106 --> 00:04:01,139 It's legal, you can make money. 78 00:04:01,175 --> 00:04:03,008 We're bringing it forward to our clients." 79 00:04:03,043 --> 00:04:05,644 And so I said, "Okay, that's great. 80 00:04:05,679 --> 00:04:07,012 That's what I expected you to say. 81 00:04:07,047 --> 00:04:08,480 I just have one other question." 82 00:04:08,515 --> 00:04:11,950 And I read this posting that I had found on Ashley Madison 83 00:04:11,985 --> 00:04:15,120 from an 18-year-old student who basically said 84 00:04:15,155 --> 00:04:19,224 her mother's broke, her dad's a deadbeat, never met him. 85 00:04:19,259 --> 00:04:22,561 She can't afford school, so if you're the kind of guy who wants 86 00:04:22,596 --> 00:04:26,298 to help me pay my bills, I can help you in other ways. 87 00:04:26,333 --> 00:04:28,967 And the posting was pretty clear that it was in physical ways. 88 00:04:29,002 --> 00:04:31,670 It's not two people breaking wedding vows. 89 00:04:31,705 --> 00:04:34,272 It's financial gain for one, sex for the other. 90 00:04:34,308 --> 00:04:37,476 And blood drained from the faces of the guys in the room. 91 00:04:39,346 --> 00:04:42,714 At that point they called an end to the meeting. 92 00:04:42,749 --> 00:04:46,084 And I got a call Monday morning, and they said 93 00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:47,819 that the deal was dead from their point of view. 94 00:04:49,790 --> 00:04:51,723 Avid Life's lawyers denied the site was designed 95 00:04:51,758 --> 00:04:53,558 to promote prostitution. 96 00:04:53,594 --> 00:04:55,994 But the IPO attempts still fell through, 97 00:04:56,029 --> 00:04:58,363 and the company still wanted to go public. 98 00:04:58,398 --> 00:05:00,065 But at that point it was common knowledge that 99 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:02,968 investing in Avid Life Media might be risky business. 100 00:05:04,705 --> 00:05:09,508 When the first IPO blew up, it had 5 million members, and 101 00:05:09,543 --> 00:05:14,679 they were seen as a significant investment opportunity, but... 102 00:05:14,715 --> 00:05:17,449 the brokers and deal-makers were afraid of them. 103 00:05:17,484 --> 00:05:21,186 So how do you tackle that problem? 104 00:05:21,221 --> 00:05:27,392 Probably the best way to try again is to have more members. 105 00:05:27,427 --> 00:05:31,696 To be even more of a good business case, right? 106 00:05:31,732 --> 00:05:34,032 The bigger the investment opportunity, 107 00:05:34,067 --> 00:05:36,034 the less people are worried about the risk, right? 108 00:05:36,069 --> 00:05:39,437 If you jump forward to when they were hacked, 109 00:05:39,473 --> 00:05:41,873 they had something like 37 million members. 110 00:05:43,243 --> 00:05:45,210 In only a few years, Ashley Madison's membership 111 00:05:45,245 --> 00:05:47,812 skyrocketed, which in theory should draw in 112 00:05:47,848 --> 00:05:49,981 a new set of bankers to back an IPO. 113 00:05:51,518 --> 00:05:52,651 But how had Ashley Madison 114 00:05:52,686 --> 00:05:55,620 lured in so many new customers so quickly? 115 00:05:55,656 --> 00:05:56,888 - Chris, how you doing? - Hi. 116 00:05:56,924 --> 00:05:58,690 - Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. 117 00:05:58,725 --> 00:06:00,625 Chris Russell is one of the people who signed up 118 00:06:00,661 --> 00:06:03,128 for the site, and it really didn't take long for him 119 00:06:03,163 --> 00:06:06,064 to become a more than dissatisfied customer. 120 00:06:06,099 --> 00:06:08,967 So out of all the dating sites you could have picked, 121 00:06:09,002 --> 00:06:11,069 why'd you pick Ashley Madison? 122 00:06:11,104 --> 00:06:14,172 It was a curiosity thing more then anything. 123 00:06:14,207 --> 00:06:17,342 I was separated at the time. 124 00:06:17,377 --> 00:06:19,411 I wasn't looking for a relationship. 125 00:06:19,446 --> 00:06:21,479 Yeah, 'cause what attracted you to their website? 126 00:06:21,515 --> 00:06:23,415 - Was it just the fact-- - It was their advertising. 127 00:06:23,450 --> 00:06:25,850 They made it sound like it was this discreet, 128 00:06:25,886 --> 00:06:28,720 active community of people, you know, 129 00:06:28,755 --> 00:06:32,090 meeting and hooking up and looking for each other. 130 00:06:32,125 --> 00:06:33,291 And for a guy who's separated 131 00:06:33,327 --> 00:06:34,459 and looking for a casual thing, it's... 132 00:06:34,494 --> 00:06:35,760 Right, you know. 133 00:06:35,796 --> 00:06:37,295 ...it seems like the right spot to look. 134 00:06:37,331 --> 00:06:40,832 So walk me through exactly what it was like to sign up for it. 135 00:06:40,867 --> 00:06:43,902 It was basically free to set up a profile. 136 00:06:43,937 --> 00:06:47,272 And then a couple days later, even the next day I wanna say, 137 00:06:47,307 --> 00:06:48,840 I started getting emails that 138 00:06:48,875 --> 00:06:50,809 this girl checked out your profile. 139 00:06:50,844 --> 00:06:52,944 She's interested in you, or you know, 140 00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:54,145 you would get different things, 141 00:06:54,181 --> 00:06:55,780 and the picture would be blurred. 142 00:06:55,816 --> 00:06:57,549 And if you want to talk to this person, 143 00:06:57,584 --> 00:06:59,985 you're gonna have to buy these tokens or credit. 144 00:07:00,020 --> 00:07:02,721 So after a few days of that, 145 00:07:02,756 --> 00:07:04,122 I'm like, "Well, this is kind of hot. 146 00:07:04,157 --> 00:07:05,390 Let me see what's going on here." 147 00:07:05,425 --> 00:07:07,459 (Laughing) Yeah. 148 00:07:07,494 --> 00:07:09,995 So I went ahead and put in my credit card information, 149 00:07:10,030 --> 00:07:12,464 bought the tokens, tried to talk to people, 150 00:07:12,499 --> 00:07:14,132 but never got any response back. 151 00:07:14,167 --> 00:07:16,201 Did you have any conversation with a real woman? 152 00:07:16,236 --> 00:07:17,802 Just once. 153 00:07:17,838 --> 00:07:20,739 Chris is now part of a class action suit that accuses 154 00:07:20,774 --> 00:07:24,643 Avid Life Media of fraudulent and deceitful actions. 155 00:07:24,678 --> 00:07:27,979 He's one of the few Ashley Madison users who was willing to 156 00:07:28,015 --> 00:07:31,616 put his name on the lawsuit and even appear on camera for us. 157 00:07:31,652 --> 00:07:34,319 Just three months after he closed his account, 158 00:07:34,354 --> 00:07:36,588 Ashley Madison got hacked. 159 00:07:36,623 --> 00:07:38,423 The hackers demanded that the parent company 160 00:07:38,458 --> 00:07:41,159 shut down its sites immediately and permanently. 161 00:07:41,194 --> 00:07:43,461 That didn't happen, and a month later, 162 00:07:43,497 --> 00:07:48,099 the hackers released a message with the heading "Time's Up!" 163 00:07:48,135 --> 00:07:49,734 In that message, they claim to have, 164 00:07:49,770 --> 00:07:52,103 "...explained the fraud, deceit, and stupidity 165 00:07:52,139 --> 00:07:54,105 of Avid Life Media and their members. 166 00:07:54,141 --> 00:07:56,441 Now everyone gets to see their data." 167 00:07:56,476 --> 00:07:58,943 Over the next 5 days, the hackers posted links 168 00:07:58,979 --> 00:08:01,846 to download the data in three batches. 169 00:08:04,251 --> 00:08:09,120 This hack is one of the largest data breaches in the world, 170 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:11,623 and is very unique on it's own that it exposed 171 00:08:11,658 --> 00:08:15,293 tens of millions of people's personal information. 172 00:08:15,328 --> 00:08:18,730 A third message was received wherein the Impact Team 173 00:08:18,765 --> 00:08:24,102 taunts the CEO: "Hey Noel, you can admit it's real now." 174 00:08:28,675 --> 00:08:30,742 In the summer of 2015, a group of hackers struck 175 00:08:30,777 --> 00:08:34,579 Avid Life Media, the parent company of Ashley Madison. 176 00:08:36,116 --> 00:08:38,249 After breaking into the database of the dating site for cheating 177 00:08:38,285 --> 00:08:42,654 spouses, the hackers dumped a huge trove of embarrassing data. 178 00:08:42,689 --> 00:08:44,856 REPORTER: 37 million. 179 00:08:44,891 --> 00:08:47,659 That's how many email addresses hackers may have released 180 00:08:47,694 --> 00:08:51,329 that allegedly belong to Ashley Madison customers... 181 00:08:51,364 --> 00:08:52,330 (Shushing) 182 00:08:52,365 --> 00:08:53,898 ♪ Ashley Madison ♪ 183 00:08:53,934 --> 00:08:55,767 ...the website that encourages customers 184 00:08:55,802 --> 00:08:57,602 to cheat on a spouse. 185 00:08:57,637 --> 00:08:59,604 VOICE: Life is short. Have an affair. 186 00:09:03,143 --> 00:09:04,943 BEN: Annalee Newitz is a journalist and author 187 00:09:04,978 --> 00:09:06,711 based in San Francisco. 188 00:09:06,747 --> 00:09:08,046 She couldn't wait to get her hands 189 00:09:08,081 --> 00:09:09,180 on the Ashley Madison data. 190 00:09:09,216 --> 00:09:10,181 Did that make you feel weird? 191 00:09:10,217 --> 00:09:12,350 You have all this personal data? 192 00:09:12,385 --> 00:09:14,452 I feel very protective of it. 193 00:09:14,488 --> 00:09:17,088 Like I want to protect those people, and I wanna only 194 00:09:17,124 --> 00:09:20,892 understand them as anonymous blips and as patterns. 195 00:09:20,927 --> 00:09:22,894 I wanted to reveal their behaviour only 196 00:09:22,929 --> 00:09:25,096 in this super anonymous way. 197 00:09:25,132 --> 00:09:26,965 - It's super sad. - It is. 198 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,033 You don't want anyone to be hurt by this stuff. 199 00:09:29,069 --> 00:09:31,736 But Annalee's analysis of the data revealed something 200 00:09:31,772 --> 00:09:33,705 unexpected, and it wasn't about the people 201 00:09:33,740 --> 00:09:35,707 who signed up for the service. 202 00:09:35,742 --> 00:09:38,042 It was starting to look like most of the female members 203 00:09:38,078 --> 00:09:41,513 of Ashley Madison were the creations of programmers. 204 00:09:41,548 --> 00:09:44,449 In other words, they were essentially fembots. 205 00:09:44,484 --> 00:09:48,686 So initially I believed, based on looking at the database, 206 00:09:48,722 --> 00:09:51,656 that there were basically zero women on the site. 207 00:09:51,691 --> 00:09:53,892 And as the story evolved, 208 00:09:53,927 --> 00:09:57,495 and I got more data and looked through it more, 209 00:09:57,531 --> 00:10:00,431 it turned out that in fact there were some women. 210 00:10:00,467 --> 00:10:03,802 They had about 5% real women. 211 00:10:03,837 --> 00:10:06,938 But what became very interesting was when I figured out that 212 00:10:06,973 --> 00:10:09,641 there were 70,000 fembots on the site, 213 00:10:09,676 --> 00:10:13,011 and they were the women that were doing most of the chatter. 214 00:10:13,046 --> 00:10:16,781 Ashley Madison isn't the first site to use fake women. 215 00:10:16,817 --> 00:10:19,484 It's thought to be a widespread industry practice. 216 00:10:19,519 --> 00:10:22,053 US regulators took action against another dating service 217 00:10:22,088 --> 00:10:24,656 for doing the same thing, and that company paid 218 00:10:24,691 --> 00:10:27,959 hundreds of thousands of dollars to settle the case. 219 00:10:27,994 --> 00:10:30,762 But the sheer epic size of Ashley Madison's bot army 220 00:10:30,797 --> 00:10:33,698 dwarfed anything seen before. 221 00:10:33,733 --> 00:10:35,633 So what were these bots actually doing? 222 00:10:35,669 --> 00:10:37,402 So Ashley Madison had this problem, 223 00:10:37,437 --> 00:10:40,972 which is that they had 95% men on a heterosexual site 224 00:10:41,007 --> 00:10:42,941 for hooking up with ladies, right? 225 00:10:42,976 --> 00:10:46,511 And so what they would do is they would create fake profiles 226 00:10:46,546 --> 00:10:49,981 of women, and then they had software code, bot code, 227 00:10:50,016 --> 00:10:52,917 that would bring those profiles to life. 228 00:10:52,953 --> 00:10:56,821 And these bots would send messages and emails to men 229 00:10:56,857 --> 00:10:59,090 who had signed up but hadn't yet paid. 230 00:10:59,125 --> 00:11:01,960 And in order to read a message from a woman on the site, 231 00:11:01,995 --> 00:11:04,562 you had to pay to have a conversation 232 00:11:04,598 --> 00:11:07,198 with what turned out to be just some PHP code saying, 233 00:11:07,234 --> 00:11:09,500 "Hey, wanna cyber?" 234 00:11:09,536 --> 00:11:10,702 That was one of the things the bots would say. 235 00:11:10,737 --> 00:11:11,903 Said, "Hey, wanna cyber?" 236 00:11:11,938 --> 00:11:13,171 Yeah! 237 00:11:13,206 --> 00:11:14,906 They're pretty much the simplest, dumbest bots 238 00:11:14,941 --> 00:11:16,407 you could possibly imagine. 239 00:11:16,443 --> 00:11:17,876 'Cause you couldn't have like an actual scripted conversation 240 00:11:17,911 --> 00:11:19,077 with them, like, "Hey, what's up?" 241 00:11:19,112 --> 00:11:20,478 You couldn't even really have a conversation. 242 00:11:20,513 --> 00:11:22,947 I mean, you could respond to them, 243 00:11:22,983 --> 00:11:25,850 and then you would have to pay to see their response, 244 00:11:25,886 --> 00:11:28,219 and you would just ultimately never get anything. 245 00:11:28,255 --> 00:11:32,123 And what we see in the company emails is that 246 00:11:32,158 --> 00:11:34,359 the people running the company knew very well that 247 00:11:34,394 --> 00:11:37,562 that was their business model, and that the vast majority 248 00:11:37,597 --> 00:11:40,031 of their conversions of unpaid customers 249 00:11:40,066 --> 00:11:43,067 to paying members were as a result of a man 250 00:11:43,103 --> 00:11:46,738 either contacting a bot or being contacted by a bot. 251 00:11:46,773 --> 00:11:50,008 Alright, so right now we are in the MySQL database 252 00:11:50,043 --> 00:11:54,078 with all of the accounts of all the people who signed up 253 00:11:54,114 --> 00:11:55,947 for Ashley Madison starting in 2002. 254 00:11:57,384 --> 00:12:00,518 Right here, #10 - so that's the 10th person 255 00:12:00,553 --> 00:12:04,789 to ever sign up - was a bot, and that's Sensuous Kitten. 256 00:12:04,824 --> 00:12:08,126 And then their second bot was "sexygal", 257 00:12:08,161 --> 00:12:10,595 and "honeybunch" and "princess". 258 00:12:10,630 --> 00:12:12,563 And how are these bots actually made though? 259 00:12:12,599 --> 00:12:14,866 Was it just somebody going on a Google image search 260 00:12:14,901 --> 00:12:17,602 and snatching pictures of ladies, or like what was it? 261 00:12:17,637 --> 00:12:22,407 So they hired a bunch of people to go and actually harvest 262 00:12:22,442 --> 00:12:26,911 photos from inactive accounts that had been created by women 263 00:12:26,947 --> 00:12:30,715 who joined any number of the Avid Life Media properties. 264 00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:32,684 And they'd take those photos and they'd put them into 265 00:12:32,719 --> 00:12:36,254 a new profile, pay women to spend all day typing in 266 00:12:36,289 --> 00:12:38,256 fake information into these profiles, 267 00:12:38,291 --> 00:12:41,025 and then that would become part of their bot army. 268 00:12:41,061 --> 00:12:45,730 It sort of seemed to me like the ultimate dystopia, 269 00:12:45,765 --> 00:12:49,400 because it's a bunch of men in this community 270 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:51,469 who are searching for women. 271 00:12:51,504 --> 00:12:53,571 The men are not allowed to talk to each other, 272 00:12:53,606 --> 00:12:56,574 so all of the real humans in the community are prevented from 273 00:12:56,609 --> 00:13:00,244 talking to each other and are forced to talk to bots. 274 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,681 And those bots are mostly cobbled together 275 00:13:03,717 --> 00:13:06,651 out of the dead accounts of real women. 276 00:13:06,686 --> 00:13:10,955 So it's kind of like a bunch of men in cages talking to zombie 277 00:13:10,991 --> 00:13:15,259 robot women, and I can't think of anything more sad then that. 278 00:13:15,295 --> 00:13:16,694 (Laughing) 279 00:13:16,730 --> 00:13:18,363 That's a really horrible picture you've just weaved. 280 00:13:18,398 --> 00:13:20,031 (Laughing) 281 00:13:20,066 --> 00:13:21,632 It just made me so... I was just like-- 282 00:13:21,668 --> 00:13:23,735 Yeah, that might just be the internet. 283 00:13:28,842 --> 00:13:30,875 BEN: In the summer of 2015, a mysterious group 284 00:13:30,910 --> 00:13:34,979 calling itself the Impact Team hacked Ashley Madison, 285 00:13:35,015 --> 00:13:38,950 dumping nearly 10GB of sensitive and revealing data. 286 00:13:38,985 --> 00:13:41,185 Erik Cabetas is a hacker and security consultant 287 00:13:41,221 --> 00:13:42,854 based in New York. 288 00:13:42,889 --> 00:13:45,490 The day of the dump, he went straight to work on the data, 289 00:13:45,525 --> 00:13:48,026 looking for clues about the identity of the hackers. 290 00:13:48,061 --> 00:13:49,460 I met him at a bar in Brooklyn. 291 00:13:50,630 --> 00:13:52,497 - Hey, how's it going? - Hey, what's up? 292 00:13:52,532 --> 00:13:53,664 - Eric. - Ben. 293 00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:55,166 - Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. 294 00:13:55,201 --> 00:13:57,001 Club Europa, yeah. 295 00:13:57,037 --> 00:13:58,102 Big red door. 296 00:13:58,138 --> 00:13:59,537 (Laughing) 297 00:13:59,572 --> 00:14:01,706 It's a really, like, bright, clean-looking place 298 00:14:01,741 --> 00:14:03,241 to talk about Ashely Madison. 299 00:14:03,276 --> 00:14:04,942 Yeah, it's... 300 00:14:04,978 --> 00:14:07,779 So this place used to be an Eastern European club... 301 00:14:07,814 --> 00:14:09,213 Nice. 302 00:14:09,249 --> 00:14:11,516 ...where you would hear more Polish than anything else. 303 00:14:11,551 --> 00:14:12,884 That's wicked. 304 00:14:12,919 --> 00:14:14,852 So we don't know how advanced it was to initially 305 00:14:14,888 --> 00:14:18,556 get in there, but what they did when they got in there 306 00:14:18,591 --> 00:14:21,492 was dump all the emails, all the internal data, 307 00:14:21,528 --> 00:14:23,628 everything on the customers. 308 00:14:23,663 --> 00:14:26,497 And that was really the big impact 309 00:14:26,533 --> 00:14:28,166 of the Ashley Madison hack. 310 00:14:28,201 --> 00:14:29,634 And who is the Impact Team? 311 00:14:29,669 --> 00:14:30,802 Is there any idea? 312 00:14:30,837 --> 00:14:33,137 Not me. (Laughing) 313 00:14:33,173 --> 00:14:35,640 So, you know, that's the big question. 314 00:14:35,675 --> 00:14:37,241 Everyone wants to know that. 315 00:14:37,277 --> 00:14:40,511 You, me, the police, everyone wants to know that. 316 00:14:40,547 --> 00:14:41,712 All the data that they leaked 317 00:14:41,748 --> 00:14:43,881 were scrubbed and cleaned of meta data. 318 00:14:43,917 --> 00:14:45,850 Everything that they released, 319 00:14:45,885 --> 00:14:49,387 they released on anonymous networks, and everything 320 00:14:49,422 --> 00:14:52,223 was done through crowdsourced seeding like BitTorrent. 321 00:14:52,258 --> 00:14:54,392 Nobody has found anything, 322 00:14:54,427 --> 00:14:57,829 any smoking gun, or even just like a shadow of a fingerprint. 323 00:14:59,265 --> 00:15:01,065 In the wake of the news, reports surfaced that 324 00:15:01,101 --> 00:15:04,469 some Ashley Madison users were US government employees, 325 00:15:04,504 --> 00:15:06,404 and even members of the military. 326 00:15:06,439 --> 00:15:08,506 This led to speculation that foreign governments could use 327 00:15:08,541 --> 00:15:11,142 the data to blackmail or extort US officials. 328 00:15:12,879 --> 00:15:15,580 Florida state attorney Jeff Ashton was the only US 329 00:15:15,615 --> 00:15:19,417 government official to publicly admit he used Ashley Madison. 330 00:15:19,452 --> 00:15:22,587 I deeply regret my affiliation with the site, 331 00:15:22,622 --> 00:15:25,089 which has caused a great amount of stress and heartache 332 00:15:25,125 --> 00:15:26,824 to my wife and children. 333 00:15:29,896 --> 00:15:32,196 What do you think a foreign intelligence agency 334 00:15:32,232 --> 00:15:34,532 could do with this? 335 00:15:34,567 --> 00:15:39,103 The intelligence community likes to keep data like this private 336 00:15:39,139 --> 00:15:41,339 so that they can exploit it themselves. 337 00:15:41,374 --> 00:15:44,809 But once it's out there in the open source world, they tend to 338 00:15:44,844 --> 00:15:47,778 not use it as much because it's not that private secret data 339 00:15:47,814 --> 00:15:51,649 that they can operationalize and use their capabilities for. 340 00:15:51,684 --> 00:15:54,285 If you're a black hat hacker or some criminal organization doing 341 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,955 this for some financial gain, what do you do with the data? 342 00:15:57,991 --> 00:16:00,024 Uh, you don't release it publicly. 343 00:16:00,059 --> 00:16:01,526 (Laughing) 344 00:16:01,561 --> 00:16:04,896 So if they would have reached out to each individual and said, 345 00:16:04,931 --> 00:16:07,465 "We will release all this data and try to extort people 346 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:09,834 en masse, all of the customers of Ashley Madison," 347 00:16:09,869 --> 00:16:11,169 that might have been a little bit more of 348 00:16:11,204 --> 00:16:13,304 a black hat financial motivation. 349 00:16:13,339 --> 00:16:16,207 So have you ever seen anything like this before 350 00:16:16,242 --> 00:16:18,276 in terms of the motivations behind it? 351 00:16:18,311 --> 00:16:21,045 If the stated motivation is the actual motivation, 352 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,482 if really a hacktivist who wants to keep 353 00:16:24,517 --> 00:16:29,754 Western society chaste and good, I've not seen something 354 00:16:29,789 --> 00:16:34,058 like this for that goal... to this level ever. 355 00:16:34,093 --> 00:16:36,727 Well, then what do you make of Impact Team saying they are 356 00:16:36,763 --> 00:16:39,730 pissed off about the fraud that Ashley Madison has been up to? 357 00:16:39,766 --> 00:16:43,367 So that's very interesting, because the initial motivation, 358 00:16:43,403 --> 00:16:46,771 or the two stated motivations, one being kind of like this, 359 00:16:46,806 --> 00:16:49,574 "We don't like what you are doing as a core concept," 360 00:16:49,609 --> 00:16:52,376 and the other being, "We don't like that 361 00:16:52,412 --> 00:16:55,513 you're making additional money off of pretending 362 00:16:55,548 --> 00:16:57,181 to delete people's data." 363 00:16:57,217 --> 00:16:59,684 The service that they were providing which was 364 00:16:59,719 --> 00:17:02,053 a "Full Delete" of all of your personally identifiable 365 00:17:02,088 --> 00:17:04,188 information was not actually happening. 366 00:17:04,224 --> 00:17:07,592 The information was still retained in logs and backups 367 00:17:07,627 --> 00:17:09,227 and various other things. 368 00:17:09,262 --> 00:17:10,628 Who would hack into a company 369 00:17:10,663 --> 00:17:13,464 and do a data leak of this magnitude 370 00:17:13,499 --> 00:17:16,033 because they feel that they're ripping a customer off? 371 00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:17,468 So you look forward to the day 372 00:17:17,503 --> 00:17:18,869 you actually figure out who it is? 373 00:17:18,905 --> 00:17:22,974 Um, I do and I don't, because... 374 00:17:23,009 --> 00:17:25,676 I mean, everyone always gets caught. 375 00:17:25,712 --> 00:17:27,645 It'd be funny just to see somebody not get caught. 376 00:17:32,118 --> 00:17:35,720 After Avid Life Media was hacked, things took a dark turn. 377 00:17:35,755 --> 00:17:38,055 We'll probably never know for sure, but reports surfaced 378 00:17:38,091 --> 00:17:40,725 that several Ashley Madison users killed themselves 379 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,693 over being exposed. 380 00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:45,896 A pastor in New Orleans specifically cited the hack 381 00:17:45,932 --> 00:17:47,965 in his suicide note. 382 00:17:48,001 --> 00:17:51,836 Avid Life's CEO Noel Biderman resigned. 383 00:17:51,871 --> 00:17:54,772 To this day, no one knows who Impact Team is, 384 00:17:54,807 --> 00:17:56,874 or if this is the outcome they even wanted. 385 00:17:58,778 --> 00:18:00,778 - Joseph. - Ben. 386 00:18:00,813 --> 00:18:02,747 How you doing? 387 00:18:02,782 --> 00:18:06,517 Joseph Cox is a freelance reporter for Motherboard, 388 00:18:06,552 --> 00:18:09,787 VICE's tech and science site that covers cyber-security. 389 00:18:09,822 --> 00:18:12,790 He landed the only published interview with the Impact Team, 390 00:18:12,825 --> 00:18:14,725 an email Q&A. 391 00:18:14,761 --> 00:18:17,461 The way it went about is I contacted somebody 392 00:18:17,497 --> 00:18:20,598 I'd spoken to before, and I had a feeling they would know 393 00:18:20,633 --> 00:18:22,733 how to get in touch with Impact Team. 394 00:18:22,769 --> 00:18:25,536 I asked them for a contact email address. 395 00:18:25,571 --> 00:18:27,772 I reached out to Impact Team, 396 00:18:27,807 --> 00:18:29,740 not really expecting them to get back. 397 00:18:29,776 --> 00:18:31,275 They get back fairly quickly. 398 00:18:31,311 --> 00:18:34,478 They refuse to talk on other encrypted channels, 399 00:18:34,514 --> 00:18:36,113 like instant messaging or something. 400 00:18:36,149 --> 00:18:37,581 It all has to be done by email. 401 00:18:37,617 --> 00:18:40,651 I fire off a few questions, maybe a dozen or so. 402 00:18:40,687 --> 00:18:43,454 They then reply, and then we just run the article 403 00:18:43,489 --> 00:18:44,989 pretty straight after that. 404 00:18:45,024 --> 00:18:48,526 So what are the motivations of these hackers? 405 00:18:48,561 --> 00:18:54,932 Well, they claim that they hacked Ashley Madison 406 00:18:54,967 --> 00:18:59,737 to expose the website for its fraudulent practices. 407 00:18:59,772 --> 00:19:02,807 The site was running something called a Full Delete feature, 408 00:19:02,842 --> 00:19:05,810 where you pay a certain fee, and then the site promises to 409 00:19:05,845 --> 00:19:08,346 obviously delete all of your information, 410 00:19:08,381 --> 00:19:10,381 because of course it's a quite sensitive site. 411 00:19:10,416 --> 00:19:12,483 They claim that this wasn't happening, 412 00:19:12,518 --> 00:19:15,152 and they found evidence of this in the data, 413 00:19:15,188 --> 00:19:18,956 and they released it to sort of vindicate these customers. 414 00:19:18,991 --> 00:19:22,860 But it gets a bit hazy, because then in conversations with me, 415 00:19:22,895 --> 00:19:25,029 they also describe Avid Life Media, 416 00:19:25,064 --> 00:19:30,167 the company that owns Ashley Madison, as feeding drug users, 417 00:19:30,203 --> 00:19:33,537 in the same way a drug dealer might feed heroin addicts. 418 00:19:33,573 --> 00:19:36,807 Out of pure speculation, who do you think these people are? 419 00:19:36,843 --> 00:19:40,544 I mean, all I can glean is that they were experienced, 420 00:19:40,580 --> 00:19:43,547 they were obviously highly motivated... 421 00:19:45,118 --> 00:19:48,786 they knew what they wanted, and they went to pretty 422 00:19:48,821 --> 00:19:52,390 extreme lengths to get it and to embarrass this company. 423 00:19:52,425 --> 00:19:53,924 You know, the one thing that I find interesting about 424 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,627 this particular case is that if you look at a lot of 425 00:19:56,662 --> 00:19:59,997 the other major hacks, the hackers keep popping up. 426 00:20:00,032 --> 00:20:01,399 What happened to Impact Team? 427 00:20:01,434 --> 00:20:03,434 I don't think anybody's come across evidence 428 00:20:03,469 --> 00:20:06,537 that Impact Team has struck again. 429 00:20:06,572 --> 00:20:08,939 In the interview, they said that they might come back 430 00:20:08,975 --> 00:20:11,142 and hit other companies. 431 00:20:11,177 --> 00:20:14,111 As far as I know, and according to public information, 432 00:20:14,147 --> 00:20:15,713 they haven't hit back. 433 00:20:15,748 --> 00:20:17,748 Do you think that this hack did a lot of damage? 434 00:20:17,784 --> 00:20:19,483 Like what was the end impact? 435 00:20:19,519 --> 00:20:21,552 I think it was a watershed moment or a wake-up call 436 00:20:21,587 --> 00:20:25,289 for ordinary people who might've signed up to these services 437 00:20:25,324 --> 00:20:28,259 years ago, or they might just use them fairly regularly. 438 00:20:28,294 --> 00:20:31,028 But they probably realized, "Shit," you know, 439 00:20:31,063 --> 00:20:33,197 "My secrets which are just stored on somebody's server 440 00:20:33,232 --> 00:20:36,200 somewhere, there's a real chance that they might become public, 441 00:20:36,235 --> 00:20:38,602 and that might have real consequences upon my life." 442 00:20:38,638 --> 00:20:41,639 I think it was a real kick in the teeth 443 00:20:41,674 --> 00:20:43,707 for just ordinary people. 444 00:20:43,743 --> 00:20:47,344 But the company is still... still operating, 445 00:20:47,380 --> 00:20:50,748 and months after the hack, 446 00:20:50,783 --> 00:20:53,150 Ashley Madison even claimed that there were more customers now. 447 00:20:53,186 --> 00:20:54,485 But considering all the bullshit they had 448 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,221 around bots and fake user accounts, I mean, 449 00:20:57,256 --> 00:20:59,056 you should seriously take that with a pinch of salt as well. 450 00:20:59,091 --> 00:21:01,158 (Laughing) 451 00:21:01,194 --> 00:21:03,828 Avid Life Media is currently being investigated 452 00:21:03,863 --> 00:21:06,096 by the US Federal Trade Commission, 453 00:21:06,132 --> 00:21:08,899 and still faces a class action lawsuit by former members. 454 00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:13,771 But Ashley Madison is trying to repair its rocky relationship 455 00:21:13,806 --> 00:21:17,141 with its customers despite its ongoing legal troubles. 456 00:21:17,176 --> 00:21:19,944 A year after the hack, Avid Life announced it were rebranding 457 00:21:19,979 --> 00:21:22,513 with a new name, Ruby, 458 00:21:22,548 --> 00:21:24,582 and a new set of commercials for Ashley Madison. 459 00:21:26,486 --> 00:21:31,455 ♪ 460 00:21:31,491 --> 00:21:33,757 ♪ Are you reading? ♪ 461 00:21:33,793 --> 00:21:35,860 ♪ Did you choose? ♪ 462 00:21:35,895 --> 00:21:40,030 ♪ Can you see into the future? ♪ 463 00:21:40,066 --> 00:21:42,199 ♪ Are you listening? ♪ 464 00:21:42,235 --> 00:21:44,535 ♪ Are you scared? ♪ 465 00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:48,439 ♪ Will you know it when you see it? ♪ 466 00:21:51,978 --> 00:21:55,779 The company denied all our requests to talk about the hack. 467 00:21:55,815 --> 00:21:58,182 And after the relaunch we reached out again for a comment, 468 00:21:58,217 --> 00:21:59,783 but they declined. 469 00:21:59,819 --> 00:22:02,686 I guess they're just trying to move on, but Ruby's new CEO 470 00:22:02,722 --> 00:22:05,856 has made one thing public: no more fembots. 471 00:22:08,194 --> 00:22:18,202 ♪ 43825

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