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This programme contains
strong language, drugs
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and strong sexual images
from the outset and throughout.
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But one thing, right, 50 of us lot
get on the bus
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and the whole world
knows we're lesbians.
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There's no mistake about it.
They know what we are.
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We're out of the closet
wearing what we're wearing.
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I'm saying that you're discounting
and trivialising
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a whole other range
of sexual feeling.
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Do you call yourself a dyke?
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Yes.
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I'm not saying, tell me what you
do in bed and why is it better
and why is mine wrong?
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I... I just wanna say
one other thing.
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No, I don't... I just said to you...
Can we listen to what's being said?
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MUSIC: I Hate Being In Love
by Amy And The Angels
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# I hate being in love
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# I hate being in love
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# I hate being in love
Ooh-ooh-hoo
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# I hate being in love
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# When my friends have told me,
it is such great fun
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# First you dodge to see her
and then you're on the run
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# Every other weekend
they ask you how'd it go?
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# Isn't it fantastic?
And I say, no, no, no!
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# Cos I hate being in love
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# I hate being in love
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# I hate being in love
Ooh-ooh-hoo
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# I hate being in love
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# You hold my hand and kiss me
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# You buy me ice cream cones
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# You hope to write me letters
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# And say you'll miss my bones
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# I can't say I'm unmoved
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# I'm feeling I don't know
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# Cos I hate being in love
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# I hate being in love
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# I hate being in love
Ooh-ooh-hoo
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# I hate being in love... #
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We weren't lesbians. We were dykes.
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We wanted to be sexual people.
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Rebel dykes were outlaws.
This was way before there
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were queer activists or Riot Grrrls.
We invented it.
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INAUDIBLE
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It was a great time
and a terrible time
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to be young and queer in London.
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Obviously there was Thatcher.
That was a common enemy.
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Thatcher had just got in in 1979.
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We were on the street. We were
working class. We were young.
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We were punks. We were poor.
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We were a kind of subculture.
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We're a community because there
were so many laws made against us.
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Politically, there was there was
always this attempt to silence.
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# All those people
in the dole queue... #
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We had to ring
Lesbian Line to find out
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where there might be a dyke bar.
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I came to London
in the mid-'70s
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and I didn't know
any other lesbians.
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There weren't any other lesbians,
as far as I was aware,
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I was actually the only one.
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So it was very difficult.
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There was nowhere to go.
There was no club, so it was...
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It was really...isolated.
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I was living in quite a conservative
town just outside Winchester.
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I had seen a woman in the town
who I liked, who was cycling
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around dressed all in black
with a great chain strung
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across her and obviously
developed a massive crush on her.
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The only problem was she was about
15 years older than me and she said,
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"Go to Greenham."
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Greenham Common was a women's peace
camp and you wanted to go and join
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and live there.
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CHANTING: We are strong,
we are strong, we say no,
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we say no to the bomb, to the bomb.
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We are women, we are woman...
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Women came from everywhere. Hundreds
and thousands of women came.
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We say no to the bomb, to the bomb.
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We are women, we are women...
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Suddenly there I was with all these
other lesbians
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and women who thought
they might be lesbians.
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It was like a ready made community.
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MUSIC: Statement
by Poison Girls
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It was that version of being a woman
and then later sort of realise
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that version of being a dyke
that really made me want to go there
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and live there more than the nuclear
protest, if I'm honest.
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We were reclaiming that land
by putting women's energy into it.
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We really needed to reclaim space.
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Everything seemed to be
owned by the patriarchy.
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And I was a separatist then.
I wouldn't even have had a male cat.
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There were eight gates, you know,
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all the colours of the rainbow,
around the base.
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Orange Gate was the musician's gate.
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Green Gate was a notorious
gate of separatists.
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There was a brand of feminism which
said that you had to be a lesbian.
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Their view is that lesbianism
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is a political
as much as a sexual identity.
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It's about giving all of
your identity, all of your energy,
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all of your identity to your sisters
and withdrawing from men and male
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behaviour as much as possible.
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After that, I moved to Blue Gate
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where there were far
more younger women.
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Blue Gate was the gate nearest
the pub.
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So that was like your young drinking
lesbians gate.
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We weren't really into that sort of
housewives for peace kind of image.
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MUSIC: Drink Problem
by The Gymslips
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After school on a Friday
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I'd get on the bus and up to
Greenham, spend the weekend there
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and then come back to school
on the Monday morning.
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So I did that as often as I could,
really.
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One time... I can't remember
who it was said,
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"Come on, come with me,
let's go and get some booze."
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And just took me into the woods.
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And it turns out that a group
of women had broken in
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to the squaddies bar, essentially,
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and nicked all of their alcohol,
just the lot.
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We were very politically aware,
but we were also really naughty.
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We just... We took great delight
in really just winding them up.
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One year they bought over
this Blackbird spy plane
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that had this special skin on it,
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which meant that it could fly
at particularly fast speeds.
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About six of us broke into the base
one night and threw paint
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at this plane, which...
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The level of damage to this skin
was in the kind of multi-millions.
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They bailed us, but the prospect was
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of kind of going to prison
for, like, 25 years or something.
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There was a nine-mile fence,
remember,
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so it was impossible for them
to control that amount of perimeter.
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So you'd just go to a bit
where there weren't any patrols
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and you get your bolt cutters out
and in you'd go.
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So we were just crawling
around in the bays, you know,
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planting acorns in circles
on the full moon.
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The first time I had sex
was in the base.
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So I went in with this woman who I
fancied. I'd never had sex before.
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And it was all smoky and misty all
around. So that was quite exciting.
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Some of the older women sort of like
decided that they would tell us
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all about lesbian sex.
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We were told that we had to
keep our nails short
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and one of the few women
that were in was into SM,
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who was a vegan, showed us
how to make whips out of rubber
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and things like that.
So that was a happy time.
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I met loads of fantastic women
who were squatting in London
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at the time.
I ended up squatting in Brixton.
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There was a lot of empty
buildings in Brixton.
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Some landlords that weren't there
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and just leaving their properties
empty.
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I hitchhiked from Finland.
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We came to London and we didn't know
where to sleep.
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And we walked through Brixton
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with my friend Emma,
and she said, "Wait here."
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And they came back with a crowbar
hidden, like, under her jacket.
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So she broke in very quick,
changed the lock and said,
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"OK, here's your new apartment."
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It was good to open them up
and give them some life.
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And we needed somewhere to live.
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You know, London was different
then. It was harder to get around.
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And it was dirtier. It was meaner.
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Especially in South London
at that time, there was
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still quite a risk
of being gay bashed.
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It was easier to be nocturnal
so that the straight people
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didn't ever get to see you.
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But in those days, people
were very homophobic, so there'd
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be always people shouting remarks
at me as this very obvious dyke
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walking through Soho with my
shaved head and my big boots.
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And suddenly the same guys were
giving me lots and lots of money
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to see my body. It was kind of nuts.
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Always had like a legal
and illegal part
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and it was quite sleazy places.
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And you did have to really
look out for yourself.
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I would take my speed and I would
share it with my friends and we'd go
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tramping around the city
centre of London at night
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and I felt like it was my city.
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And then there was that whole
twilight zone, literally the
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twilight zone, where it was evening,
you'd woken up, they were all coming
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home from work. And that's when
things happen. That's when...
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Yeah. Stuff happened on the streets.
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The chances are you probably were
gonna get your head slapped about.
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And so it was dangerous just
to be who you were in those days.
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You didn't want to get spotted
on the streets.
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You would drop hands
at certain moments.
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At least two of my friends
were cut on their face
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because they'd been identified
as dykes.
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So I ended up... My mum was a nurse
so that qualified me to do
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butterfly stitches,
which I made out of...
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I dunno, gaffer tape probably.
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And fixed a scar on her face.
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I kind of like was getting grief,
homophobia and racism.
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My first six months in London,
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I went to a few political meetings.
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They had some sort of conference
at the South London Women's Centre
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in Brixton, which I was invited to
as a black woman.
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And when I got there I was like,
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"Oh, God, this is so serious."
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A lot of discussion around
Greenham Common, for example.
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Now, I just come out of the Army.
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Do you think I was mentioning
that to anybody?
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It was Saturday night,
I'm not having a workshop,
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I'm not having a hug in.
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I just want to cut some shapes
on the dance floor.
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I just want to go
and say hi to people.
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There weren't that many places
for a young lesbian to go.
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When I came out about 1986,
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there were something like three or
four bars or clubs that I knew of.
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There was Gateways.
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And I think there was, like, that
Kenric Society for, you know,
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the rich women of Kensington
and Richmond, which obviously
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didn't apply to me.
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You get your dole on Thursday
and you spent it by Friday night.
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We made our own entertainment,
really.
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I used to DJ when I was in the Army,
out of desperation.
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I knew a good party.
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We called it Sistermatic.
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00:16:00,020 --> 00:16:02,300
And the club was run by
four black women, four very,
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very different black women.
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And before we knew it, it'd kind of
blown up into this amazing party.
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00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:14,940
We played a lot of lovers rock,
reggae and dance, all sort of music.
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00:16:19,740 --> 00:16:20,980
And we took it on a journey
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00:16:21,020 --> 00:16:24,980
and we played house music
in its early format. Well, I did.
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And, yeah, between me and Lorna,
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00:16:27,580 --> 00:16:30,300
who was one of the other DJs
in the collective,
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00:16:30,340 --> 00:16:33,860
we could we could play from 10:00
till 10:00 next morning.
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00:16:36,940 --> 00:16:39,180
I started to see a rise
in the number of Asian women
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00:16:39,220 --> 00:16:42,420
that would come. Lots of different
young, younger black women
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00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:43,580
coming through.
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So we had a whole scope of people
dancing to the same sort of music.
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You had your kind of Greenham
Common-looking feminist.
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You had your kind of S&M dykes
on bikes kind of thing.
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And there was quite a few of them.
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00:17:06,980 --> 00:17:08,860
Let's see the Black Widows tattoo.
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Hi!
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MUSIC: Sister George
by Sister George
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The lesbian motorbike group
was the Black Widows.
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There was about, I don't know,
20 of us. 30 of us.
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And, um, we used to go and runs.
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We've all got crash helmets
and nobody can tell who we are.
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00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:47,660
And, you know, and you see
people going, "Oh, my God."
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00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:53,900
And then we get off our motorbikes,
we take off our crash helmets and
it's like, "It's women! Let's go!"
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00:17:56,860 --> 00:18:00,780
A lot of the motor biking lesbians
I've met used to go to The Bell,
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00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:02,660
so obviously I went to The Bell.
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00:18:06,860 --> 00:18:11,340
The Bell was the only truly mixed
place for lesbians and gays,
236
00:18:11,380 --> 00:18:14,460
you know. The Bell...
I mean, The Bell was crazy.
237
00:18:16,180 --> 00:18:18,380
Glue sniffing, drugs,
238
00:18:18,420 --> 00:18:20,700
too much booze, fights.
239
00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:25,660
There were skinheads but I...
240
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:27,900
I think the thing was cos I had
a mohican at the time
241
00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:29,460
and I used to work out a lot,
242
00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,300
I had a stance, you know,
I had an attitude.
243
00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:40,180
And there were some beautiful women
there as well.
244
00:18:40,220 --> 00:18:43,420
So it was just like,
what's not to like?
245
00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:47,020
People like Sinead O'Connor
would go there and nick our style.
246
00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:48,420
Yes, she did.
247
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:54,380
Wednesday night,
it was meant to be women's night.
248
00:18:54,420 --> 00:18:58,380
I remember the very first time
we went, it was completely dead.
249
00:18:58,420 --> 00:19:00,540
The music was just bland and awful.
250
00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:05,100
We thought,
"We can do better than this.
251
00:19:05,140 --> 00:19:07,820
"Let's try and get a night here
and get some second hand vinyl
252
00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:10,780
"and, you know, be creative."
253
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:16,780
The Sleeze sisters, the monumental
Sleeze Sisters, Trill and Pom.
254
00:19:16,820 --> 00:19:20,020
They played everything
that I wanted to hear.
255
00:19:28,780 --> 00:19:33,060
One of the first serious bands
I was in, Mouth Almighty,
256
00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:35,340
one of our first gigs
was actually at The Bell.
257
00:19:35,380 --> 00:19:38,700
There were loads of lesbian bands
on the scene.
258
00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:41,260
How could I forget
the Brixton legends that were
259
00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:43,340
the Sluts from Outer Space?
260
00:19:46,820 --> 00:19:49,420
"Dykes get in a lot of trouble
cos we don't suck no dicks.
261
00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:52,740
"Why don't we get together
and throw some fucking bricks?"
262
00:19:54,620 --> 00:19:57,700
# Dykes get in a lot of trouble
cos we won't suck no dicks
263
00:19:57,740 --> 00:20:00,620
# So then we get together,
throw some fucking bricks... #
264
00:20:00,660 --> 00:20:03,260
A, you couldn't be a woman
in a band.
265
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:05,780
B, you couldn't be a women only
band.
266
00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:07,860
C, You couldn't be lesbians.
267
00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:11,780
So, you know, on all commercial
fronts we were fucked,
268
00:20:11,820 --> 00:20:13,620
but we didn't care. We just did it.
269
00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:16,380
# We're a riot, we're on a riot
270
00:20:16,420 --> 00:20:19,300
# We're a riot,
on a riot of our own... #
271
00:20:22,060 --> 00:20:27,300
And that's for the first time I came
to London, just to find a band.
272
00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:31,420
We got to organise this big
concert in the Fabrik in Hamburg,
273
00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:34,820
which is this big musical venue.
They said,
274
00:20:34,860 --> 00:20:38,380
"This doesn't actually exist
as there aren't women in bands
to play there."
275
00:20:38,420 --> 00:20:40,540
And I said, "You must be joking.
We will find them.
276
00:20:40,580 --> 00:20:43,140
"We will bring them
here and they will play."
277
00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:47,940
So I came in December 1986.
278
00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:57,820
I mean, on this Monday evening
is kind of when my life
279
00:20:57,860 --> 00:20:59,820
really totally changed.
280
00:20:59,860 --> 00:21:01,900
It was... It was amazing.
281
00:21:01,940 --> 00:21:05,700
I met these Finnish women
that were visiting.
282
00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:09,620
Seija was telling me she wanted to
start this women S&M club in London.
283
00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:12,900
I was really fascinated
with the idea, and I was also
284
00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:15,220
very fascinated with Seija
I have to admit,
285
00:21:15,260 --> 00:21:18,020
she was very gorgeous-looking, tall.
286
00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:22,380
They were wearing these uniform
caps, these long military coats,
287
00:21:22,420 --> 00:21:26,180
big boots, and very she was very
passionate about her ideas
288
00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:28,020
and I loved that.
289
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:36,140
We had already been running a club
called Extasy in Finland since 1985
290
00:21:36,180 --> 00:21:40,700
doing the kind of things with arts,
pornography and SM
291
00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:43,260
and we always mix
those three things together.
292
00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:50,460
There were a lot of trans people
there and lesbian mothers,
293
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:53,420
and there were bisexuals
and androgynous people
294
00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:55,100
like how we called ourselves.
295
00:21:55,140 --> 00:21:59,900
It was kind of like a really open
queer group, and it attracted people
296
00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:04,420
who were artist-minded and who were
really free, free in their will.
297
00:22:04,460 --> 00:22:09,220
She was an artist, but she wanted
to also bring sex into art
298
00:22:09,260 --> 00:22:10,780
or art into sex.
299
00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:47,020
Chain reaction had had
a real build up
300
00:22:47,060 --> 00:22:49,820
from women all over the place.
Some saying, "Oh, no,
301
00:22:49,860 --> 00:22:52,540
"you don't want to go there.
Don't, you know, women..."
302
00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:04,140
And then other women saying,
"Oh, you know, you've got to go.
You've got to go."
303
00:23:07,940 --> 00:23:11,820
I knew you had to wear
a dress code, and I...
304
00:23:11,860 --> 00:23:16,540
I had a leather jacket,
and I had Dr Martin boots.
305
00:23:16,580 --> 00:23:18,100
I thought, "Oh, that'll do."
306
00:23:18,140 --> 00:23:21,140
So I went and, you know,
I paid my pound and I got in
307
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:24,700
and I was just so scared
of meeting anybody.
308
00:23:24,740 --> 00:23:26,860
And I thought it was going
to be, you know, I didn't
309
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:30,140
really have an understanding
of what happened there.
310
00:23:33,460 --> 00:23:38,460
We would arrive at about 9:00.
I think we opened about 10:00
311
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:41,420
and we would have our tool
of choice, which was
312
00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:44,860
a roll of black bin liners, and then
we would cover up all the windows
313
00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:46,540
with black bin liners.
314
00:23:46,580 --> 00:23:50,260
That was all the decorating we did
was just covering up the windows.
315
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:51,900
There was a back room where...
316
00:23:51,940 --> 00:23:54,780
That was almost like a culture
of its own, actually, the pool room.
317
00:23:54,820 --> 00:23:57,460
Sometimes you'd wander in
with your rubber dress trying to
318
00:23:57,500 --> 00:23:59,340
attract a butch's attention.
319
00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:02,340
Everybody was very busy, of course,
coming there and looking very cool
320
00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:05,220
in their leathers and finding
people to have sex with.
321
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:07,660
But the cabaret was a bit like
the highlight.
322
00:24:16,260 --> 00:24:20,100
I had seen maybe one Monty Python
film, and when I saw the first
323
00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:23,060
cabaret at Chain Reaction,
that's what it reminded me of.
324
00:24:24,460 --> 00:24:28,460
It was so bad it was good.
325
00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:43,020
We had things like mud wrestling.
Yes, I did that.
326
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:56,660
Baby oil wrestling. Yes, I did that.
327
00:25:06,340 --> 00:25:09,540
Spaghetti hoop wrestling.
No, I didn't do that.
328
00:25:09,580 --> 00:25:12,620
Spaghetti. Which we haven't actually
forgiven her for.
329
00:25:14,020 --> 00:25:18,020
INDISTINCT CHATTER
330
00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:20,380
I just really fancied having ketchup
331
00:25:20,420 --> 00:25:21,980
poured all over me
332
00:25:22,020 --> 00:25:23,900
and have it run over me. I thought
333
00:25:23,940 --> 00:25:25,620
that'd be quite theatrical.
334
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:35,900
I got to be the person who did a lot
of the cabarets because
335
00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:39,580
I was quite excited about
getting fucked in public.
336
00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:42,620
My name in those days was Jane
Campbell, and I was known
337
00:25:42,660 --> 00:25:45,380
as Jane Jane Queen of Pain.
338
00:25:49,380 --> 00:25:52,660
When I was a kid,
I had behavioural stuff about...
339
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:55,940
Attention seeking, they used call
it. Attention seeking behaviour.
340
00:25:55,980 --> 00:25:58,140
And, you know, I was actually
quite lonely, kid.
341
00:25:58,180 --> 00:26:00,340
But anyway, it developed
into a kind of sexuality.
342
00:26:00,380 --> 00:26:04,140
And I was very ashamed
of wanting sex all the time.
343
00:26:04,180 --> 00:26:08,620
You know, that slut shaming thing
that goes on about if you love sex
344
00:26:08,660 --> 00:26:10,540
there's something wrong with you.
345
00:26:10,580 --> 00:26:13,380
And, yeah, I just got loved
and all my friends
346
00:26:13,420 --> 00:26:15,820
were really accepting of it
and indulgent of it
347
00:26:15,860 --> 00:26:18,660
and I learned to love it myself.
Love that part of myself.
348
00:26:21,620 --> 00:26:24,460
I was crucified to a cross,
349
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:28,740
tied to a motorbike. Um...
350
00:26:46,820 --> 00:26:49,300
It was just thrilling.
My eyes popped.
351
00:27:02,740 --> 00:27:06,500
A lot in leather.
Just really sharp looking.
352
00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:10,820
You allow to be butch and femme but
not in the old-fashioned '50s way,
353
00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:14,180
which is kind of the image
we had behind us.
354
00:27:16,660 --> 00:27:19,460
Depends how far we go back
but that was that whole
355
00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:21,060
pre-Chain Reaction thing,
356
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:24,460
which was really kind of about
butch and femme and looking like
357
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,540
a straight man and a straight woman,
because if you were able
358
00:27:27,580 --> 00:27:30,780
to pull that off, you could
walk past a homophobe
359
00:27:30,820 --> 00:27:32,140
and they wouldn't clock you.
360
00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:35,780
So that was the idea behind butch
and femme, especially if you wanted
361
00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:37,620
to be a bit tarty.
362
00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:40,580
You were better off with
a really, really butch woman
363
00:27:40,620 --> 00:27:43,300
because then you really did
pass as straight.
364
00:27:45,380 --> 00:27:48,060
And I could wear lipstick
and I could be girlie.
365
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:54,820
I could wear heels, but I wasn't
buying into the straight world
366
00:27:54,860 --> 00:27:58,180
at all, which I would never
have done.
367
00:27:58,220 --> 00:28:00,820
So, yeah, it felt like a freeing.
368
00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:10,780
There was very few safe spaces
and at Chain Reaction
369
00:28:10,820 --> 00:28:14,860
it was a space for
femme dykes to be femme.
370
00:28:16,580 --> 00:28:20,220
Another thing about Chain Reaction,
which was very different for lesbian
371
00:28:20,260 --> 00:28:24,060
clubs at the time,
was that it was trans inclusive.
372
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:29,060
Little did I know that some years
later I would identify
373
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:31,620
as both trans and intersex.
374
00:28:32,860 --> 00:28:36,300
I mean, this was the '80s.
375
00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:40,500
Trans people who identified
as lesbian or bi
376
00:28:40,540 --> 00:28:44,500
tended to be very deeply
in the closet about it.
377
00:28:44,540 --> 00:28:49,060
Both because of getting access
to surgery and drugs
378
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:53,220
from the gatekeeping doctors
and because people were led
379
00:28:53,260 --> 00:28:56,300
to believe it was unacceptable
on the scene.
380
00:28:56,340 --> 00:29:00,980
Compared with every other lesbian
scene in London, Chain Reaction
381
00:29:01,020 --> 00:29:04,260
was comparatively accepting
of trans women.
382
00:29:07,220 --> 00:29:10,540
The same month
that I actually transitioned,
383
00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:13,620
The Transsexual Empire
was published in London.
384
00:29:19,580 --> 00:29:23,740
In which Janice Raymond said, quote,
385
00:29:23,780 --> 00:29:27,540
"The transsexually constructed
lesbian feminist
386
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:31,180
"violates women's sexuality
and spirit."
387
00:29:33,180 --> 00:29:39,260
So having a place to go
where being trans wasn't
388
00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:45,420
an absolute no-no
was very, very cool.
389
00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:47,460
Chain Reaction, I don't know
how long it lasted,
390
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:50,180
but maybe it was only
a couple of years or so.
391
00:29:50,220 --> 00:29:54,420
But it really... It really created
an incredible bond between us.
392
00:29:54,460 --> 00:29:57,860
We hung out together
in a big house.
393
00:30:04,060 --> 00:30:08,820
There were three houses
of lesbians, all, you know,
394
00:30:08,860 --> 00:30:10,340
like almost in a row.
395
00:30:10,380 --> 00:30:13,780
There were just lesbians
stuffed into every room.
396
00:30:13,820 --> 00:30:16,700
There was, like, I don't know, maybe
about six rooms, but there'd be
397
00:30:16,740 --> 00:30:18,940
18 people living there.
398
00:30:24,620 --> 00:30:28,300
There'd always be a menagerie
of animals, rats,
399
00:30:28,340 --> 00:30:31,780
terrapins, dogs, everything.
400
00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:33,580
Cats, obviously.
401
00:30:36,860 --> 00:30:40,820
INAUDIBLE
402
00:30:42,380 --> 00:30:44,820
It was a real creative time.
403
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:48,300
I mean, everybody was... People
were either taking photographs
404
00:30:48,340 --> 00:30:54,100
or, you know, writing
or making art or doing theatre.
405
00:30:54,140 --> 00:30:58,740
The scene was...different.
It was a lot more intimate.
406
00:30:58,780 --> 00:31:01,940
Everybody sleeping
with everybody else.
407
00:31:01,980 --> 00:31:04,300
That thing in The L Word
where they've got that big chart
408
00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:08,060
at the beginning, they nicked that
off us. That was our idea.
409
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:10,340
It was like a lesbian soap.
410
00:31:10,380 --> 00:31:12,860
And there was one woman on there
who was incredibly cute
411
00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:15,500
and she pretty much
slept with everybody.
412
00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:18,780
And so they made this big chart
with her name in the middle
413
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:22,020
and then arrows going off to
all the people she had slept with
414
00:31:22,060 --> 00:31:25,060
and then all the people
they had slept with.
415
00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:28,620
We loved each other. And then we
loved people who loved our lovers.
416
00:31:28,660 --> 00:31:31,420
So why wouldn't we want to
shag them as well?
417
00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:38,340
Jane and I had exactly the same
place to butches.
418
00:31:38,380 --> 00:31:42,620
So really, I had great
years playing
419
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:47,220
Nab That Butch, and Jane would see,
and if Jane saw me being interested
420
00:31:47,260 --> 00:31:53,060
in somebody, you know, we had a real
fierce, friendly competition.
421
00:31:55,060 --> 00:31:56,980
She usually won.
422
00:31:57,020 --> 00:31:58,580
We loved each other.
423
00:31:58,620 --> 00:32:00,740
Just one big, happy, shaggy family.
424
00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:07,180
Originally, I come from East
Germany. When I was 17, my family
425
00:32:07,220 --> 00:32:08,820
escaped to West Germany.
426
00:32:08,860 --> 00:32:11,860
My father, he had real problems
in East Germany,
427
00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:13,140
was put in prison
428
00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:15,260
as a political prisoner
for two and a half years.
429
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:18,020
I knew if I stayed on my own,
I would have a lot of repercussions
430
00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:20,140
of them escaping.
431
00:32:20,180 --> 00:32:22,900
I found it very difficult to fit
in in the West and I had quite
432
00:32:22,940 --> 00:32:24,780
a kind of left...
433
00:32:24,820 --> 00:32:26,900
My parents left and lived
somewhere else.
434
00:32:26,940 --> 00:32:29,580
I was on my own and feeling quite
lonely when I came to London.
435
00:32:29,620 --> 00:32:31,900
I was single for quite a while.
436
00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:35,740
What really saved me was the women
that I met and who I made friends
437
00:32:35,780 --> 00:32:37,900
with - that became my family.
438
00:32:37,940 --> 00:32:39,820
That was something that was lasting.
439
00:32:39,860 --> 00:32:43,860
There were people that loved me
and that I loved.
440
00:33:03,020 --> 00:33:06,180
Our birth families had rejected
us, basically.
441
00:33:06,220 --> 00:33:08,820
So we would get together
at Christmas.
442
00:33:12,660 --> 00:33:16,820
This one Christmas, I think we had
26 women for Christmas dinner.
443
00:33:21,660 --> 00:33:23,980
So we'd wake up in the morning,
everybody would be in jim-jams
444
00:33:24,020 --> 00:33:25,700
and we'd have Bucks Fizz.
445
00:33:32,340 --> 00:33:35,060
I think we all got drunk
before 11:00.
446
00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:39,500
Mountains of presents that we all
just gave each other.
447
00:33:39,540 --> 00:33:41,860
We spent all day just unwrapping
presents.
448
00:33:41,900 --> 00:33:45,020
And of course, we'd have to have
a turkey.
449
00:33:45,060 --> 00:33:46,660
Baya fisted the turkey!
450
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:49,540
And everyone watched. Had this
enormous turkey, it was so big
451
00:33:49,580 --> 00:33:51,660
it wouldn't fit in our tiny little
oven.
452
00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:54,180
Probably have taken some acid
in, in the afternoon, to go
453
00:33:54,220 --> 00:33:55,500
with the Bucks Fizz.
454
00:33:55,540 --> 00:33:58,700
And then about eight in the evening,
"Oh, my God, we've got a turkey.
455
00:33:58,740 --> 00:34:00,700
"We need to put it in the oven."
456
00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:02,940
So I started, you know,
mixing the apples,
457
00:34:02,980 --> 00:34:05,020
onions, breadcrumbs, stuffing.
458
00:34:07,740 --> 00:34:11,460
As I was stuffing the turkey,
I just sort of tripped out.
459
00:34:16,380 --> 00:34:18,620
As if I was in a different galaxy -
460
00:34:18,660 --> 00:34:21,180
having sex with the turkey
was a perfectly fine thing to do.
461
00:34:21,220 --> 00:34:22,540
It was weird.
462
00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:41,460
It was like our little
own fantasy world.
463
00:34:44,660 --> 00:34:46,500
# No regrets
464
00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:52,780
# I don't need a permanent lover...
#
465
00:34:54,700 --> 00:34:57,780
They were decorating
with black plastic
466
00:34:57,820 --> 00:34:59,380
and all black stuff.
467
00:34:59,420 --> 00:35:03,660
So I had this idea that tonight I do
something really nice and soft,
468
00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:07,580
and I went to Waterloo Flower Market
in the morning to pick up flowers
469
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:09,020
that are being left on the floor.
470
00:35:09,060 --> 00:35:12,540
And we had a huge amount of flowers
and we took them to the club
471
00:35:12,580 --> 00:35:15,260
and we were putting them
up everywhere.
472
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:17,700
Then we heard a knock in the door.
473
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:21,020
They were all covered in the face.
474
00:35:21,060 --> 00:35:22,780
We couldn't recognise them.
475
00:35:22,820 --> 00:35:24,660
With sticks and bars and shit.
476
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:27,060
And they had crowbars and axes.
477
00:35:27,100 --> 00:35:29,220
Smashing up the bar, hitting some
478
00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:33,020
of the women who were there,
and just screeching
479
00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:34,940
about violence against women.
480
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:37,940
And finally, the woman behind
the bar, she started screaming
481
00:35:37,980 --> 00:35:39,780
out really loud.
482
00:35:43,140 --> 00:35:47,020
It was an organisation
called WAVAW - Women Against
483
00:35:47,060 --> 00:35:49,460
Violence Against Women.
484
00:35:49,500 --> 00:35:54,540
It's a group called Women Against
Women who are into sadomasochism.
485
00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:58,020
It was like lesbians
against violence,
486
00:35:58,060 --> 00:36:00,660
against women standing outside.
487
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:03,340
And they would sit outside the club
488
00:36:03,380 --> 00:36:05,980
and hiss to everybody who came in.
489
00:36:23,220 --> 00:36:24,740
I was brought up as a socialist.
490
00:36:24,780 --> 00:36:26,180
I was never to cross a picket line.
491
00:36:26,220 --> 00:36:29,380
I had to cross my first picket line
because they were trying to stop us
492
00:36:29,420 --> 00:36:31,100
from going in.
493
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:34,900
And I knew some of those women.
494
00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:43,220
So the women that I took to Greenham
ended up being some of the women
495
00:36:43,260 --> 00:36:46,260
that picketed Chain Reaction
on the first night.
496
00:36:50,660 --> 00:36:53,420
One of my performances did get
stormed, actually, by some
497
00:36:53,460 --> 00:36:55,100
of those women.
498
00:36:57,820 --> 00:37:01,380
I had my friend in the audience
who came and volunteered.
499
00:37:01,420 --> 00:37:03,540
She had to pick things out of the
bag.
500
00:37:03,580 --> 00:37:06,380
And I would say, "How would
you like me to use this on you?"
501
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:10,100
But she was blindfolded, you know,
and had to touch things and ended
502
00:37:10,140 --> 00:37:12,820
up with her on all fours,
503
00:37:12,860 --> 00:37:16,500
sort
of tied up and hot wax started,
504
00:37:16,540 --> 00:37:21,660
and it just went absolutely crazy
because a whole load of women
505
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,460
stormed the stage, tried
to beat us up.
506
00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:27,180
They didn't realise it was a whole
set-up, that it was playing
507
00:37:27,220 --> 00:37:30,500
with this idea of how far can
you push things and almost putting
508
00:37:30,540 --> 00:37:33,380
a mirror up to oneself and others.
509
00:37:34,860 --> 00:37:37,660
And then there was this huge debate
with some of the other women saying,
510
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:39,020
"What the hell are you doing?
511
00:37:39,060 --> 00:37:41,260
"You can't go and attack
women for this," you know.
512
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:43,500
"And you don't know, even, the
context."
513
00:37:54,060 --> 00:37:58,260
I understood that they perceived
SM as aping or copying
514
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:00,980
domestic violence relationships.
515
00:38:01,020 --> 00:38:02,820
There's blood in your hands.
516
00:38:02,860 --> 00:38:05,660
And there's a man in your head
and you're violent.
517
00:38:08,660 --> 00:38:13,500
When we were beating each other
and cutting each other...
518
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:16,220
..it took the power away
from that thing.
519
00:38:16,260 --> 00:38:19,540
Somehow we felt much more
like we could survive a beating.
520
00:38:24,420 --> 00:38:27,100
Even though I knew a lot
of these women were sweeties
521
00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:31,780
underneath, very often there was
a kind of callousness displayed.
522
00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:41,620
I had ideological political
523
00:38:41,660 --> 00:38:44,060
differences with some of the women
524
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:46,380
in Chain Reaction, who wanted
525
00:38:46,420 --> 00:38:49,180
to enact Nazi fantasies or wear
526
00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:50,860
Nazi uniforms to the club.
527
00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:54,180
And that was, that was the line
you do not cross.
528
00:38:54,220 --> 00:38:57,860
I did not want to be part of that,
and I argued fiercely against it.
529
00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:59,420
And I won.
530
00:39:03,260 --> 00:39:06,940
We got denounced in the London
Women's Liberation newsletter
531
00:39:06,980 --> 00:39:11,020
for wearing instruments
of torture and Nazi regalia.
532
00:39:11,060 --> 00:39:12,900
Just a little over the top.
533
00:39:12,940 --> 00:39:14,700
Never worn a swastika in my life.
534
00:39:14,740 --> 00:39:15,980
Shout at people who do.
535
00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:19,780
But, you know, we got denounced
for wearing a Muir cap
536
00:39:19,820 --> 00:39:21,820
and a biker jacket.
537
00:39:21,860 --> 00:39:25,340
A hugely political thing,
wearing a leather jacket,
538
00:39:25,380 --> 00:39:28,620
as a lesbian. You're a Nazi
if you did.
539
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:01,660
We at Chain Reaction,
540
00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:05,260
on the contrary, work towards
a mutual and equal power exchange
541
00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:08,060
based on the principle of consent.
542
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:11,420
Lesbian S&M is a woman's right
to say no and her choice
543
00:40:11,460 --> 00:40:13,420
to say a yes.
544
00:40:13,460 --> 00:40:17,340
There was a great big talk
about the lesbian scene
545
00:40:17,380 --> 00:40:22,020
and sexuality, and we went
down the Bell dykes, and the
546
00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:26,580
Chain Reaction dykes in our leather
and Muir caps and, you know, chains
547
00:40:26,620 --> 00:40:28,580
and what have you.
548
00:40:28,620 --> 00:40:33,420
And sat there clanking away
in the seats, listening to people
549
00:40:33,460 --> 00:40:37,900
talking about how wrong S&M was.
550
00:40:37,940 --> 00:40:40,340
Despite attempts at sexual
repression both
551
00:40:40,380 --> 00:40:43,700
within and outside the gay
community, Chain Reaction continues
552
00:40:43,740 --> 00:40:46,580
to be successful
because we encourage women
553
00:40:46,620 --> 00:40:49,900
to explore their sexual fantasies,
to be themselves, and to make
554
00:40:49,940 --> 00:40:51,580
each other feel good.
555
00:40:51,620 --> 00:40:55,620
We work to create an atmosphere
that is safe and nonjudgmental.
556
00:40:59,060 --> 00:41:01,260
Everybody had completely
lost their sense of humour,
557
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:02,980
by this time.
558
00:41:07,220 --> 00:41:09,660
Dykes are being told
that they're fascists
559
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:11,980
and they're perverted
and they're male-oriented.
560
00:41:12,020 --> 00:41:13,700
I mean, that's what needs to stop.
561
00:41:13,740 --> 00:41:17,260
And I think that's
what we need to talk about.
562
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:23,860
Linda Bellos, I think it was, said
that if she saw a black woman
563
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:28,300
with handcuffs on, it reminded
her of slavery and she thought
564
00:41:28,340 --> 00:41:31,500
that they were diminishing
themselves and their ancestors.
565
00:41:31,540 --> 00:41:35,780
And at that point, I was sort
of getting nudged by people sitting
566
00:41:35,820 --> 00:41:37,140
next to me.
567
00:41:37,180 --> 00:41:40,380
And I stood up and I was like,
"Well, I'm black and I wear a
568
00:41:40,420 --> 00:41:43,060
leather jacket and I've got chains,
so..."
569
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:44,700
Then I sat down again.
570
00:41:44,740 --> 00:41:49,980
So that was my, my immense
contribution to the conversation.
571
00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:54,540
But, you know, I think even
just that little thing did actually
572
00:41:54,580 --> 00:41:57,980
make a bit of a difference because,
you know, it just showed
573
00:41:58,020 --> 00:42:02,340
that you can't generalise and you
can't say that what I believe
574
00:42:02,380 --> 00:42:04,580
has to be what you believe.
575
00:42:04,580 --> 00:42:07,580
As far as I know, my experience
of women involved or who find
576
00:42:07,620 --> 00:42:10,100
themselves invested
and interested in exploring
577
00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:14,140
role play and sexuality in general
are absolutely anti-racist,
578
00:42:14,180 --> 00:42:16,660
anti-sexist, anti-fascist.
579
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:22,380
And what we're doing, basically,
is trying to play with all
580
00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:26,140
these symbols, and they are symbols,
and they are very powerful symbols
581
00:42:26,180 --> 00:42:29,420
both of oppression and of violence
as opposed to being ourselves
582
00:42:29,460 --> 00:42:31,500
oppressive and violent.
583
00:42:31,540 --> 00:42:34,340
It's not anybody can do anything
to anybody whenever they like,
584
00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:36,660
whether it's violent or not.
It's not about that.
585
00:42:36,700 --> 00:42:39,220
It's a very structured thing
and there are certain rules
586
00:42:39,260 --> 00:42:40,780
within that anarchy.
587
00:42:42,220 --> 00:42:47,140
The issues about S&M and lesbians
really arose because of arguments
588
00:42:47,180 --> 00:42:50,380
within feminism, and those,
those happened right
589
00:42:50,420 --> 00:42:52,460
from the '70s upwards.
590
00:42:54,020 --> 00:42:56,980
When I came out in the
mid-'70s, I felt like I was a
591
00:42:57,020 --> 00:42:59,620
bit of a second-class lesbian
because I was a lesbian out of lust
592
00:42:59,660 --> 00:43:01,380
and not out of politics.
593
00:43:02,820 --> 00:43:04,580
I have quite a lot of vanilla sex.
594
00:43:04,620 --> 00:43:06,380
What is vanilla sex?
595
00:43:06,420 --> 00:43:07,740
What is it?
596
00:43:07,780 --> 00:43:08,900
Well. I don't know,
597
00:43:08,940 --> 00:43:11,060
maybe you should define
what vanilla sex is because you say
598
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:12,380
you're a hot vanilla...
599
00:43:12,420 --> 00:43:15,300
I think it's fantastic
that you're a hot vanilla dyke.
600
00:43:15,340 --> 00:43:17,060
INAUDIBLE
601
00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:18,980
I just wanna say one other thing.
602
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:27,860
No, I don't. I just said to you...
603
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:30,540
Can we listen to what's being
said?
604
00:43:32,740 --> 00:43:35,580
That's basically what the whole
lesbian scene
605
00:43:35,620 --> 00:43:37,140
was around the '80s.
606
00:43:37,180 --> 00:43:42,620
It was a hugely homogenised
view of lesbian society
607
00:43:42,660 --> 00:43:46,940
in which you had to be wearing
pastel colours and dungarees and go
608
00:43:46,980 --> 00:43:50,620
to Greenham and wear Birkenstocks.
609
00:43:50,660 --> 00:43:52,860
And we did not want to do that.
610
00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:55,500
That's why we were the
rebel dykes, you know.
611
00:43:55,540 --> 00:43:57,700
We wanted to do what we wanted
to do.
612
00:43:57,740 --> 00:44:00,940
We came out of punk, you know,
we came out of art school.
613
00:44:00,980 --> 00:44:04,820
We were musicians, you know,
we were artists.
614
00:44:04,860 --> 00:44:10,100
We didn't want to do necessarily
what everyone else wanted to do.
615
00:44:10,140 --> 00:44:13,140
You don't look like a bunch of
dykes, you look like a bunch of
punks.
616
00:44:16,260 --> 00:44:19,780
That kind of every woman
can be a lesbian, which started
617
00:44:19,820 --> 00:44:23,140
as a political theory, ended
up as a kind of rule of thumb.
618
00:44:23,180 --> 00:44:26,220
And then we started making
more and more rules for ourselves
619
00:44:26,260 --> 00:44:28,980
about what you had to do
to be a proper lesbian.
620
00:44:29,020 --> 00:44:31,620
And there started to be all
these rules about what you did
621
00:44:31,660 --> 00:44:33,020
and didn't do in bed.
622
00:44:33,060 --> 00:44:36,860
Penetrative sex was wrong,
and any kind of dominance
623
00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:38,940
and submission games were wrong.
624
00:44:38,980 --> 00:44:40,980
Any kind of role playing was wrong.
625
00:44:41,020 --> 00:44:46,500
And that's where the hatred of SM
dykes by the mainstream lesbian
626
00:44:46,540 --> 00:44:48,300
feminist movement came from.
627
00:44:48,340 --> 00:44:50,100
And it was never The Twain
Shall Meet.
628
00:44:50,140 --> 00:44:53,420
And it came out of really genuine
concerns in things like Women's Aid
629
00:44:53,460 --> 00:44:55,740
and stuff like that about male
violence.
630
00:44:55,780 --> 00:44:58,300
But it got transmogrified
into essentially
631
00:44:58,340 --> 00:45:00,180
the lesbian sex police.
632
00:45:02,860 --> 00:45:06,540
There was this joke back in the day
that the authentic version
633
00:45:06,580 --> 00:45:10,500
of lesbian sex was holding hands
in 20 passionate positions.
634
00:45:12,660 --> 00:45:15,900
Because it's the only way
that you could possibly
635
00:45:15,940 --> 00:45:17,860
remove all inequality.
636
00:45:19,740 --> 00:45:23,420
You can't go around telling people
who they're allowed to have sex
637
00:45:23,460 --> 00:45:26,340
with or how they're allowed
to have sex.
638
00:45:29,380 --> 00:45:32,860
I think there were quite a lot
of women who got labelled S&M dykes,
639
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:36,140
who probably did very little S&M
activity in bed.
640
00:45:36,180 --> 00:45:38,740
But I swear a lot of people
joined in cos they were
641
00:45:38,780 --> 00:45:40,060
having more fun.
642
00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:10,620
I honestly believed
that we could actually win
643
00:46:10,660 --> 00:46:13,460
fights and battles, and it was up
for grabs and they were not
644
00:46:13,500 --> 00:46:17,460
going to take it from us,
and they were not going to tell us
what to do.
645
00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:21,300
And I think the anti-censorship
battle was one of those battles
646
00:46:21,340 --> 00:46:24,220
that they weren't going to be able
to tell us what we could
647
00:46:24,260 --> 00:46:28,300
and couldn't read, particularly
when it was about our own sexuality
648
00:46:28,340 --> 00:46:29,900
and our own identity.
649
00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:33,020
And unfortunately for the radical
feminists, they picked the wrong
650
00:46:33,060 --> 00:46:35,780
side when they went against
pornography and they went
651
00:46:35,820 --> 00:46:38,340
against people's own sexuality.
652
00:46:38,380 --> 00:46:41,220
They were, they were just,
like, so off-message.
653
00:46:41,260 --> 00:46:44,100
Because the bottom line
was, we love women,
654
00:46:44,140 --> 00:46:46,060
we really love women.
655
00:46:57,700 --> 00:47:02,220
Quim was a lesbian magazine
for dykes of all sexual persuasions.
656
00:47:02,260 --> 00:47:06,420
The first issue was on penetration,
and we asked questions
657
00:47:06,460 --> 00:47:09,420
about what your experience
of penetration was,
658
00:47:09,460 --> 00:47:12,740
because at the time, it was a bit
of a no-no.
659
00:47:12,780 --> 00:47:16,940
Now, obviously, a lot of us
were doing it, but there was a whole
660
00:47:16,980 --> 00:47:18,740
politics around it.
661
00:47:18,780 --> 00:47:22,140
So we thought, well, we'll just say,
what is it for you?
662
00:47:22,180 --> 00:47:24,020
How does it feel for you?
663
00:47:24,060 --> 00:47:26,860
And the idea was to give
everybody their voice
664
00:47:26,900 --> 00:47:28,540
and their say.
665
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:40,140
When I first came out and first
found out about dildos, essentially,
666
00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:43,380
we were lucky if we could get black
rubber dildos, but they always
667
00:47:43,420 --> 00:47:44,940
had balls on them.
668
00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:47,340
So of course all the lesbians
would chop off the balls,
669
00:47:47,380 --> 00:47:49,580
and they were really quite ugly.
670
00:47:49,620 --> 00:47:52,260
And then of course they couldn't
keep them held in very well.
671
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:55,460
So there were always
chopped-off, lopped-off bits.
672
00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:58,420
And then when I moved to
San Francisco, my first dildo
673
00:47:58,460 --> 00:48:01,780
I bought at Good Vibrations,
674
00:48:01,820 --> 00:48:04,500
and not very hygienic,
675
00:48:04,540 --> 00:48:07,180
but it was a leather one,
but it didn't have balls.
676
00:48:07,220 --> 00:48:09,220
So it was the first one
that we'd ever seen
677
00:48:09,260 --> 00:48:10,740
that didn't have balls.
678
00:48:10,780 --> 00:48:13,460
So that was my first one.
679
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:17,100
Then, of course, coming
back to London.
680
00:48:17,140 --> 00:48:21,820
And Kai Hoyle, who is the MD of
Shush, she also is a rebel dyke
681
00:48:21,860 --> 00:48:25,980
and Shush was born out of this
period when we were saying
682
00:48:26,020 --> 00:48:29,300
we don't want to be dictated
to about how we, how
683
00:48:29,340 --> 00:48:31,540
we should be having sex.
684
00:48:31,580 --> 00:48:33,700
We don't want people to tell
us what to do.
685
00:48:33,740 --> 00:48:38,100
It's women's right to decide
on their own sexuality.
686
00:48:38,140 --> 00:48:42,340
And very much that we don't want
penises.
687
00:48:42,380 --> 00:48:45,660
You know, we do want penetration,
but we don't want penises.
688
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:49,380
So Shush started making dildos
ball-free,
689
00:48:49,420 --> 00:48:54,900
un-penis-like dildos, which sort
of revolutionised really - lesbians
690
00:48:54,940 --> 00:48:59,220
then could actually finally get hold
of things that they wanted.
691
00:49:11,140 --> 00:49:15,220
With my girlfriend of the time, I
ran the first mail order sex toy
692
00:49:15,260 --> 00:49:17,660
business "by lesbians for women",
693
00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:20,580
we always said, and it was called
Thrilling Bits, which was terrific
694
00:49:20,620 --> 00:49:23,460
because I was able to stand
up on a chair at places
695
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:26,380
like Fallen Angel and go, "I'm one
of the women with Thrilling Bits."
696
00:49:27,580 --> 00:49:30,500
We imported terrific stuff
from San Francisco, which was a bit
697
00:49:30,540 --> 00:49:32,660
hairy, because Customs
didn't like it.
698
00:49:32,700 --> 00:49:33,860
And so we had to name all
699
00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:36,260
these things because we weren't
going
700
00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:38,500
to give them the names
they had in the straight catalogues,
701
00:49:38,540 --> 00:49:41,100
which were all really sleazy.
702
00:49:41,140 --> 00:49:45,260
So we named them after famous
lesbians or women we thought ought
703
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:47,180
to be lesbians, were icons.
704
00:49:47,220 --> 00:49:51,220
So we had a Dusty, we had other
things like that, and our sense
705
00:49:51,260 --> 00:49:54,100
of humour got the better
of us again.
706
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:59,500
And so we called our smallest, most
inoffensive vibrator, the Sheila,
707
00:49:59,540 --> 00:50:04,140
after Sheila Jeffreys, a radical
feminist separatist - who went
708
00:50:04,180 --> 00:50:06,140
through the roof.
709
00:50:07,580 --> 00:50:10,060
One of the things we sold
and we sold quite a lot of,
710
00:50:10,100 --> 00:50:13,700
were dental dams, and they were
actually squares of latex,
711
00:50:13,740 --> 00:50:17,620
and you were supposed to use
them for cunnilingus.
712
00:50:17,660 --> 00:50:20,300
So if you were going down
on your girlfriend, you would put
713
00:50:20,340 --> 00:50:21,540
this between you and her.
714
00:50:21,580 --> 00:50:24,460
And it was the equivalent
of a condom, except they were
715
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:26,100
thicker than condoms.
716
00:50:26,140 --> 00:50:29,460
They used to come covered in sort
of medical talcum powder.
717
00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:31,780
So you had to wash them
before you went anywhere.
718
00:50:31,820 --> 00:50:35,620
People tried to manufacture sort
of little harnesses for them,
719
00:50:35,660 --> 00:50:38,140
like those things you used
to have with sanitary towels
720
00:50:38,180 --> 00:50:39,540
in the '60s.
721
00:50:39,580 --> 00:50:41,940
It was these strange harnesses.
722
00:50:41,980 --> 00:50:44,700
People tried all those things,
but it was completely pointless
723
00:50:44,740 --> 00:50:49,020
because it's very, very,
very difficult indeed to pass
724
00:50:49,060 --> 00:50:50,460
HIV through cunnilingus.
725
00:50:50,500 --> 00:50:53,020
But we weren't entirely certain
about that at the time.
726
00:50:53,060 --> 00:50:55,140
Like, people used to put
them on their coffee tables
727
00:50:55,180 --> 00:50:57,500
as a discussion.
728
00:50:57,540 --> 00:51:00,620
I was actually
running this business at the same
729
00:51:00,660 --> 00:51:04,140
time that I was helping
to found the Stonewall group
730
00:51:04,180 --> 00:51:07,220
as it was, what we called it,
then, Stonewall now.
731
00:51:07,260 --> 00:51:09,260
And we would have meetings
in my living room.
732
00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:12,340
And I remember one time,
we'd just had a shipment of stuff
733
00:51:12,380 --> 00:51:16,060
from America and we got out
the dental dams and the lesbian porn
734
00:51:16,100 --> 00:51:19,140
magazines, On Our Backs, and all
of that stuff, and showed
735
00:51:19,180 --> 00:51:20,820
it to everyone who was there.
736
00:51:20,860 --> 00:51:23,980
And Stonewall was mixed,
lesbian and gay.
737
00:51:24,020 --> 00:51:27,780
And I remember the group passed
this dental dam around pretty much
738
00:51:27,820 --> 00:51:30,900
in two fingers from one
to the other, and God bless him.
739
00:51:30,940 --> 00:51:32,740
Ian McKellen looked at it,
740
00:51:32,780 --> 00:51:35,300
stretched it, pulled it about, and
went, "May I?" I went,
741
00:51:35,340 --> 00:51:36,580
"Do what you like with it."
742
00:51:36,620 --> 00:51:38,540
And he just pulled it to his mouth
and stuck his tongue
743
00:51:38,580 --> 00:51:40,660
through it and experimented
with how it would actually
744
00:51:40,700 --> 00:51:41,980
be to use it.
745
00:51:42,020 --> 00:51:45,340
And I just thought, "Oh, God, I wish
I had a camera at the moment.
746
00:51:45,380 --> 00:51:48,420
"One of our great stage actors
having fun with a dental dam."
747
00:52:06,660 --> 00:52:11,140
I had started photographing
queer dyke life in 1982.
748
00:52:12,740 --> 00:52:17,980
Love Bites was created by a kind
of sexual performativity, instead
749
00:52:18,020 --> 00:52:21,460
of performing what was actually
going on in the clubs,
750
00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:25,220
because we all wanted
that to be a safe and private space.
751
00:52:25,260 --> 00:52:28,540
Instead, we kind of created
sexual happenings.
752
00:52:30,380 --> 00:52:35,980
We created, like, a lot of interest
and intrigue, what we were doing,
753
00:52:36,020 --> 00:52:39,300
and we were performing for each
other.
754
00:52:39,340 --> 00:52:42,100
At the time, the sex wars
were raging.
755
00:52:43,300 --> 00:52:45,500
They were trying to exclude us.
756
00:52:49,020 --> 00:52:53,380
The radical lesbian separatists
did still have quite a lot of power
757
00:52:53,420 --> 00:52:54,820
at that time.
758
00:52:54,860 --> 00:52:58,340
Many book shops wouldn't stock
it because they thought
759
00:52:58,380 --> 00:53:00,460
it wasn't feminist.
760
00:53:00,500 --> 00:53:04,100
And our argument was that we were
women and this was our lives
761
00:53:04,140 --> 00:53:09,300
and we were feminists, and we may
be experimenting with sexuality,
762
00:53:09,340 --> 00:53:11,860
but that did not
mean we weren't feminists.
763
00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:15,340
When Love Bites came out in 1991,
764
00:53:15,380 --> 00:53:18,540
they successfully excluded
765
00:53:18,580 --> 00:53:22,020
Love Bites from gay and lesbian
book shops. In Silver Moon,
766
00:53:22,060 --> 00:53:25,100
Sister Right,
and Gay's The Word.
767
00:53:31,180 --> 00:53:32,620
When the book shop was open,
768
00:53:32,660 --> 00:53:34,740
we were a lesbian and gay feminist
shop.
769
00:53:34,780 --> 00:53:38,300
It was different from gay book
shops in the past, which were
book shops
770
00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:41,380
for men where they could go
and get erotic material.
771
00:53:41,420 --> 00:53:44,220
And this was a book shop
set up by socialists,
772
00:53:44,260 --> 00:53:45,940
and it was about ideas.
773
00:53:45,980 --> 00:53:50,380
So gay politics, and biography
and history and coming out.
774
00:53:50,420 --> 00:53:53,900
And it wasn't about selling erotic
magazines and we didn't sell them.
775
00:53:53,940 --> 00:53:57,020
You have to remember, this was also
the era when Gay's The Word
776
00:53:57,060 --> 00:54:00,980
book shop in London was raided and
seized.
777
00:54:01,020 --> 00:54:04,300
The case eventually collapsed
in court, but the police were trying
778
00:54:04,340 --> 00:54:07,660
to say things like The Joy
Of Lesbian Sex was inherently
779
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:10,660
pornographic and things
like that. Stuff that would not
780
00:54:10,700 --> 00:54:13,980
have been pornographic amongst
heterosexuals, was definitely
781
00:54:14,020 --> 00:54:15,900
pornographic if it was lesbian.
782
00:54:15,940 --> 00:54:20,300
On Our Backs was a lesbian
publication from San Francisco,
783
00:54:20,340 --> 00:54:24,540
and it was essentially mostly soft,
a little bit occasionally of hard
784
00:54:24,580 --> 00:54:25,980
porn for lesbians.
785
00:54:26,020 --> 00:54:29,300
On Our Backs
was definitely a banned publication.
786
00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:36,860
I started as photographic assistant
and I went in there sort
787
00:54:36,900 --> 00:54:41,260
of on this mission to kind
of change the look of it a bit.
788
00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:46,620
I felt like the style of
the photographs and the women
789
00:54:46,660 --> 00:54:51,700
was a bit old-school, and I wanted
to kind of get the newer, younger
790
00:54:51,740 --> 00:54:54,540
generation that was out
there, involved.
791
00:54:54,580 --> 00:54:58,140
It featured actually some
of the English S&M dykes
792
00:54:58,180 --> 00:55:01,940
and, and it was run by, partly
by English women who'd gone out
793
00:55:01,980 --> 00:55:03,380
to San Francisco.
794
00:55:03,420 --> 00:55:06,780
And that's where I first
met my London dykes, actually,
795
00:55:06,820 --> 00:55:11,620
And it was very early on in my,
in my employment there.
796
00:55:11,660 --> 00:55:17,980
And I first met Seija, from Finland,
797
00:55:18,020 --> 00:55:21,620
she came in to the office one day
798
00:55:21,660 --> 00:55:25,860
and she had with her Baya and Aphra.
799
00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:30,860
And I saw these women and I was just
kind of like, "Whoosh, who are they?
800
00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:32,500
"OK, pictures.
801
00:55:32,540 --> 00:55:34,300
"I want to take pictures with them."
802
00:55:38,780 --> 00:55:41,500
I was at the time still
back and forth between here
803
00:55:41,540 --> 00:55:44,300
and San Francisco,
and I was still at On Our Backs.
804
00:55:46,060 --> 00:55:48,380
I was working with Del La Grace, who
805
00:55:48,420 --> 00:55:49,980
I worked with on Love Bites.
806
00:55:50,020 --> 00:55:53,900
I'd met Del La in San Francisco
and I interviewed Del La
807
00:55:53,940 --> 00:55:55,700
for On Our Backs.
808
00:55:55,740 --> 00:56:00,380
We became really good friends,
and we've worked together ever
since.
809
00:56:00,420 --> 00:56:03,700
One of the books that we didn't
stock at the start was Love Bites,
810
00:56:03,740 --> 00:56:05,260
when it came out.
811
00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:08,140
We were worried about it
and we took legal advice.
812
00:56:08,180 --> 00:56:10,820
We had a big meeting about it
because there were a number
813
00:56:10,860 --> 00:56:14,740
of images in the book
that we thought could make us
814
00:56:14,780 --> 00:56:17,140
liable to prosecution.
815
00:56:17,180 --> 00:56:18,860
But I have to say, Sister Right,
816
00:56:18,900 --> 00:56:22,580
which was the women of colour
book shops, were the only ones
817
00:56:22,620 --> 00:56:26,180
who were honest enough to say,
"We disapprove of the content.
818
00:56:26,220 --> 00:56:30,380
"We do not support lesbian SM."
819
00:56:30,420 --> 00:56:34,860
And we did this whole performance
march against the censorship
820
00:56:34,900 --> 00:56:36,220
of love Bites.
821
00:56:37,580 --> 00:56:41,260
I wasn't too worried about
the Obscene Publications Squad.
822
00:56:41,300 --> 00:56:45,900
There was all sorts of rules,
archaic rules, you know, to do
823
00:56:45,940 --> 00:56:49,380
with how erect a dildo can be.
824
00:56:49,420 --> 00:56:53,780
It can only be, it has to be
less than 45 degrees.
825
00:56:53,820 --> 00:56:56,260
Really weird stuff.
826
00:56:56,300 --> 00:56:58,740
I didn't expect to find myself
827
00:56:58,780 --> 00:57:03,100
in court for an over-45-degree
dildo.
828
00:57:03,140 --> 00:57:06,140
It was an awful
distraction, all of that stuff,
829
00:57:06,180 --> 00:57:10,420
because there was, really we wanted
just to get on with the creativity,
830
00:57:10,460 --> 00:57:12,180
exploring of what we were doing.
831
00:57:25,540 --> 00:57:28,740
And I think that started the
realisation that this was a
832
00:57:28,780 --> 00:57:31,300
backlash against people for their
sexuality.
833
00:57:31,340 --> 00:57:34,580
There was always this attempt
to silence. The AIDS activism
834
00:57:34,620 --> 00:57:37,340
was Silence Equals Death,
which is one of the slogans
835
00:57:37,380 --> 00:57:41,220
that we used, because nobody
recognised us as a community
836
00:57:41,260 --> 00:57:43,980
and having a voice at all.
837
00:57:44,020 --> 00:57:49,340
ACT UP is the AIDS Coalition
to Unleash Power, and it's an AIDS
838
00:57:49,380 --> 00:57:53,580
activist group which I got involved
in after going to the '87 March
839
00:57:53,620 --> 00:57:57,460
on Washington, and seeing
the Names Project be unfolded,
840
00:57:57,500 --> 00:58:01,740
and just standing there for hours,
841
00:58:01,780 --> 00:58:04,300
hearing name after name after name.
842
00:58:12,100 --> 00:58:13,260
In ACT UP,
843
00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:16,500
we wanted to talk about women
and AIDS.
844
00:58:16,540 --> 00:58:19,540
One of the things that was happening
on the women's scene, on the dyke
845
00:58:19,580 --> 00:58:24,420
scene, is that there was becoming
a sort of faction that was saying,
846
00:58:24,460 --> 00:58:28,020
"Well, you know, we're lesbians,
we don't get AIDS,"
847
00:58:28,060 --> 00:58:29,940
who became very judgmental.
848
00:58:29,980 --> 00:58:33,620
And so we needed to talk
about behaviour, that the virus
849
00:58:33,660 --> 00:58:40,500
was passed by behaviour and not
by identity, you know.
850
00:58:43,180 --> 00:58:46,020
It was great because it
really did get people talking
851
00:58:46,060 --> 00:58:49,340
about the nuts and bolts of
852
00:58:49,380 --> 00:58:51,260
what, you know, what we did.
853
00:58:51,300 --> 00:58:54,060
You know, lesbians use IV drugs.
854
00:58:55,380 --> 00:59:01,580
Lesbians are strippers and sex
workers. And something that very few
855
00:59:01,620 --> 00:59:03,660
people talk about,
856
00:59:03,700 --> 00:59:08,580
but lesbians sometimes sleep with
gay men and, you know, with men,
857
00:59:08,620 --> 00:59:10,660
but also with gay men,
858
00:59:10,700 --> 00:59:12,060
the proximity.
859
00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:19,340
And in those days, you know, drugs,
partying, you know, things happen.
860
00:59:28,140 --> 00:59:32,220
But I think particularly with sex
workers, it was an issue
861
00:59:32,260 --> 00:59:36,140
because there was from, from one
faction, there was this whole sort
862
00:59:36,180 --> 00:59:40,860
of attitude that if you slept
with men in any way, shape or form,
863
00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:42,980
you were not a lesbian.
864
01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:24,300
Up until then, lesbians are not seen
as particularly activist and the gay
865
01:00:24,340 --> 01:00:28,140
male scene was split between
activist gays who all wore loads
866
01:00:28,180 --> 01:00:31,740
of badges and did gay volunteering
work for Switchboard or Friend
867
01:00:31,780 --> 01:00:34,220
or whatever, and scene
queens who went to Heaven
868
01:00:34,260 --> 01:00:35,460
and all those things.
869
01:00:35,500 --> 01:00:37,060
And none of the groups got together.
870
01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:39,580
And lesbians didn't mix much
with gay men and the two types of
871
01:00:39,620 --> 01:00:40,980
gay men didn't mix much.
872
01:00:41,020 --> 01:00:45,060
Section 28, as well as HIV,
brought us all together.
873
01:00:48,060 --> 01:00:52,060
Section 28 of the Local Government
Act
874
01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:54,340
said that local authorities
875
01:00:54,380 --> 01:00:57,860
were not allowed to promote
homosexuality
876
01:00:57,900 --> 01:01:01,100
as a pretend family relationship.
877
01:01:01,140 --> 01:01:03,580
And these are the sort of things
that made us rebel dykes.
878
01:01:03,620 --> 01:01:04,660
It wasn't
879
01:01:04,700 --> 01:01:07,060
we just woke up one morning and
go, "Oh, let's be rebels."
880
01:01:07,100 --> 01:01:09,460
We actually had things to rebel
against.
881
01:01:11,540 --> 01:01:17,060
My girlfriend in the late '70s,
early '80s, she'd left her husband
882
01:01:17,100 --> 01:01:20,100
to come and live with me,
and brought her baby.
883
01:01:20,140 --> 01:01:24,540
He took the baby and he never
came back.
884
01:01:24,580 --> 01:01:29,100
And we were both very distraught,
like, "What's going on?"
885
01:01:29,140 --> 01:01:32,580
This solicitor who he hired, took
the case to court, and the judge
886
01:01:32,620 --> 01:01:35,820
ruled in his favour
because we were lesbians.
887
01:01:37,580 --> 01:01:39,540
That's why we were rebels.
888
01:01:39,580 --> 01:01:44,980
Children who need to be taught
to respect traditional moral values
889
01:01:45,020 --> 01:01:50,060
are being taught that they have
an inalienable right to be gay.
890
01:01:50,100 --> 01:01:53,100
To have Margaret Thatcher's
government come up with an idea
891
01:01:53,140 --> 01:01:56,700
that your relationships were pretend
and that you should be silenced,
892
01:01:56,740 --> 01:01:59,180
you shouldn't be allowed
to be spoken of,
893
01:01:59,220 --> 01:02:01,420
it was a really outraging feeling.
894
01:02:02,780 --> 01:02:05,100
It was quite, you know, celebratory
in the '80s.
895
01:02:05,140 --> 01:02:08,020
There was a lot of fun and pleasure
in it and we'd moved on a lot,
896
01:02:08,060 --> 01:02:11,460
I think from the kind of '50s
or '60s sense of people feeling a
897
01:02:11,500 --> 01:02:14,780
bit apologetic about their
sexuality, to feeling great about
it.
898
01:02:18,180 --> 01:02:21,460
Hi, we're all gay. It's great, in't
it?
899
01:02:24,860 --> 01:02:27,340
We went on a lot of marches
against Clause 28.
900
01:02:27,380 --> 01:02:31,500
It was horrifying because I had so
recently been at school
901
01:02:31,540 --> 01:02:35,940
and then Clause 28 was coming
to really stop even teachers
902
01:02:35,980 --> 01:02:41,540
being able to respond to a child
who might be in real danger.
903
01:02:41,580 --> 01:02:44,700
Even if you've got nice
parents, it's hard to come out.
904
01:02:44,740 --> 01:02:47,940
And so a teacher is the next port
of call and they weren't allowed
905
01:02:47,980 --> 01:02:52,340
to even listen or even respond
in any positive way.
906
01:02:52,380 --> 01:02:55,340
It was just - we knew
that it was dangerous.
907
01:02:55,380 --> 01:02:58,620
We knew already that people killed
themselves because they...
908
01:02:58,660 --> 01:03:00,380
..needed to come out.
909
01:03:01,580 --> 01:03:04,220
And then the government
was telling teachers
910
01:03:04,260 --> 01:03:06,260
that they can't be themselves.
911
01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:07,700
It's a relationship.
912
01:03:07,740 --> 01:03:12,020
You can't start by being covered
up and being restricted
913
01:03:12,060 --> 01:03:13,580
and being scared.
914
01:03:13,620 --> 01:03:17,900
It was quite a pernicious idea
within this Local Government Act
915
01:03:17,940 --> 01:03:22,860
that the promotion of homosexuality
should be outlawed in schools,
916
01:03:22,900 --> 01:03:27,780
and in particular that schools
should not be able to teach
917
01:03:27,820 --> 01:03:30,860
what they called a "pretended
family relationship."
918
01:03:30,900 --> 01:03:35,020
That having gay, two lesbian
mothers, for instance, was actually
a family.
919
01:03:35,060 --> 01:03:37,460
But they were saying that's
not a real family.
920
01:03:37,500 --> 01:03:40,340
It felt like it was mainly
gay people fighting it.
921
01:03:40,380 --> 01:03:43,340
There were straight people fighting
it, but I didn't feel like the media
922
01:03:43,380 --> 01:03:46,100
was supporting the fight.
923
01:03:47,500 --> 01:03:50,540
Yeah, it felt quite scary, like
that
924
01:03:50,580 --> 01:03:52,180
we weren't going to win.
925
01:03:52,220 --> 01:03:54,500
We were talking to ourselves,
by the '80s.
926
01:03:54,540 --> 01:03:57,380
We were a completely
self-referential, internal-looking.
927
01:03:57,420 --> 01:04:00,740
We weren't capable of talking
to anybody we didn't agree with.
928
01:04:00,780 --> 01:04:04,660
We weren't capable of the grand
gesture.
929
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:09,180
And the thing that happened
with Section 28 and the abseilers
930
01:04:09,220 --> 01:04:13,420
was that the grand gesture came back
and the grand gesture came back
931
01:04:13,460 --> 01:04:15,260
led by lesbians.
932
01:04:15,300 --> 01:04:17,860
And I think for us that came
very naturally.
933
01:04:17,900 --> 01:04:20,780
That was the kind of, I think part
of, in a way, the training camp
934
01:04:20,820 --> 01:04:23,540
that Greenham Common was
for activist women and for activist
935
01:04:23,580 --> 01:04:24,900
dykes at that time.
936
01:04:26,100 --> 01:04:30,540
Greenham was very much about that,
about doing physical things, cutting
937
01:04:30,580 --> 01:04:34,020
fences, blockading, entering
the USAF base,
938
01:04:34,060 --> 01:04:35,900
pushing out boundaries
939
01:04:35,940 --> 01:04:39,100
and stepping over boundaries,
and making kind of quite symbolic
940
01:04:39,140 --> 01:04:42,260
actions that, you know,
that were headline-grabbing as well.
941
01:04:42,300 --> 01:04:45,380
We were quite conscious of that,
that sort of way to use the media
942
01:04:45,420 --> 01:04:47,500
and grab headlines in that way.
943
01:04:47,540 --> 01:04:50,140
It was actually loads and loads
of women who'd never been seen
944
01:04:50,180 --> 01:04:53,300
before, absolutely livid
at this legislation.
945
01:04:53,340 --> 01:04:56,780
We had a meeting at my flat in
Clapham to talk about direct action
946
01:04:56,820 --> 01:04:58,940
and where we wanted to go
with it next.
947
01:04:58,980 --> 01:05:02,140
There was a debate in the House
of Lords coming up, and the first
948
01:05:02,180 --> 01:05:04,020
idea we had was a bit more
ambitious.
949
01:05:04,060 --> 01:05:07,780
We wanted to hijack a boat and board
the Palace of Westminster
950
01:05:07,820 --> 01:05:09,300
from the river.
951
01:05:09,340 --> 01:05:11,780
So storm it from the river
and you know, seriously
952
01:05:11,820 --> 01:05:13,220
talking this through.
953
01:05:13,260 --> 01:05:15,940
But there was issues of the tide
times and where we were going to get
954
01:05:15,980 --> 01:05:17,100
this boat and everything.
955
01:05:17,140 --> 01:05:19,780
So maybe a little bit, a bit
ambitious.
956
01:05:19,820 --> 01:05:23,540
And then I think we were sort
of - I think the TV might have been
on.
957
01:05:23,580 --> 01:05:26,460
We were reminded of the way
the House of Lords is, where there's
958
01:05:26,500 --> 01:05:30,020
the public gallery above
where the Lords sit, and so sort
959
01:05:30,060 --> 01:05:32,660
of had this idea of abseiling
in or sliding in.
960
01:05:32,700 --> 01:05:35,780
A couple of people went, Sally
and Janet, I think, went up
961
01:05:35,820 --> 01:05:38,780
Clapham High Street and bought a
couple of washing lines and we kind
962
01:05:38,820 --> 01:05:42,540
of chopped those into four,
and then we wrapped them, like, four
of us
963
01:05:42,580 --> 01:05:45,860
had them under our jumpers
or whatever, wrapped around us.
964
01:05:45,900 --> 01:05:48,660
We were queuing to get into
the House of Lords for this debate.
965
01:05:48,700 --> 01:05:50,980
So Paula was kind of shouting
out, "Are you a Lord?
966
01:05:51,020 --> 01:05:53,660
"Are you a Lord? Can you sign
us in as a guest, to come
967
01:05:53,700 --> 01:05:55,060
"into your guest gallery?"
968
01:05:55,100 --> 01:05:58,340
And before too long, one guy said,
"Yes, OK, I'll take you in."
969
01:05:58,380 --> 01:06:03,300
And so he signed in four or five
of us, and we went into this side
970
01:06:03,340 --> 01:06:06,220
gallery, which was lucky actually,
because the visitor's gallery
971
01:06:06,260 --> 01:06:09,700
is significantly lower
than the public gallery.
972
01:06:09,740 --> 01:06:12,420
So we were sitting there
and the debate was going on,
973
01:06:12,460 --> 01:06:15,220
and I can't, you know,
it's a very adrenaline thing,
974
01:06:15,260 --> 01:06:18,220
I can't honestly remember much
about it now, but we got
975
01:06:18,260 --> 01:06:21,140
these ropes out, tied them
to the little wrought iron balcony,
976
01:06:21,180 --> 01:06:22,900
and pitched over.
977
01:06:22,940 --> 01:06:26,300
I got rope burns going down
this nylon thing very badly
978
01:06:26,340 --> 01:06:27,900
to the floor.
979
01:06:27,940 --> 01:06:30,740
And then other friends, who were
in the public gallery, were shouting
980
01:06:30,780 --> 01:06:33,020
and, you know, kicking off
and everything.
981
01:06:33,060 --> 01:06:35,140
Their sort of security moved
quite quickly.
982
01:06:35,180 --> 01:06:37,540
They held us in there for
a good number of hours.
983
01:06:37,580 --> 01:06:39,260
We didn't get charged with anything
at all.
984
01:06:39,300 --> 01:06:41,780
They could have charged us
within their own bylaws, but I think
985
01:06:41,820 --> 01:06:44,260
they just thought, "Let's
get rid of them."
986
01:06:44,300 --> 01:06:47,620
And this actually caused a huge stir
because it was the first time
987
01:06:47,660 --> 01:06:52,060
that a lot of gay men had seen
lesbians involved in direct action
988
01:06:52,100 --> 01:06:54,380
and doing something
that was for everybody.
989
01:06:54,420 --> 01:06:57,900
It was lesbians who became
the outrageous activists.
990
01:06:57,940 --> 01:07:02,340
The invasion of the 6:00 News
at the BBC was another high-profile
991
01:07:02,380 --> 01:07:04,340
action that we did.
992
01:07:04,380 --> 01:07:06,460
I didn't actually go in there,
but I was kind of involved
993
01:07:06,500 --> 01:07:09,140
in the thinking about it. Red
and Stella, in particular, who'd
994
01:07:09,180 --> 01:07:12,580
been on the abseiling, and then
various other dykes who hadn't
995
01:07:12,620 --> 01:07:16,140
been on the abseiling but were
really, really keen to do some more
996
01:07:16,180 --> 01:07:19,860
direct action around Clause 28, came
together in a new sort of group
997
01:07:19,900 --> 01:07:22,540
of activists, and we started
to plan.
998
01:07:23,620 --> 01:07:28,100
It was helped by the fact that one
of the dykes had a friend
999
01:07:28,140 --> 01:07:31,420
who worked, I think, as a runner
in the BBC,
1000
01:07:31,460 --> 01:07:33,460
and passed us a floor plan
1001
01:07:33,500 --> 01:07:36,820
so that they had an idea
of where the studio actually
1002
01:07:36,860 --> 01:07:39,540
was in this massive TV centre.
1003
01:07:45,620 --> 01:07:48,380
There was quite a lot of
hair-raising bits of being on
1004
01:07:48,420 --> 01:07:50,140
completely the wrong floor.
1005
01:07:50,180 --> 01:07:53,020
I seem to remember they had to sort
of lock themselves in the toilet
1006
01:07:53,060 --> 01:07:54,140
for quite a long time.
1007
01:07:54,180 --> 01:07:55,900
They were a bit more organised
this time,
1008
01:07:55,940 --> 01:07:58,140
they had T-shirts with
Stop The Clause on.
1009
01:07:58,180 --> 01:08:00,980
I think they had to go in and strip
off and get their T-shirts in place.
1010
01:08:01,020 --> 01:08:03,780
But anyway, they kind of pulled
it together, as we know, because we
1011
01:08:03,820 --> 01:08:05,620
do have the film footage of that.
1012
01:08:07,820 --> 01:08:10,980
And they got into this studio
and padlocked themselves
1013
01:08:11,020 --> 01:08:14,060
to the bottom of the desk,
which is why they couldn't so easily
1014
01:08:14,100 --> 01:08:15,660
get rid of them.
1015
01:08:15,700 --> 01:08:18,340
And you could hear these muffled
voices from under the desk.
1016
01:08:20,980 --> 01:08:25,980
The 6:00 News from the BBC, with Sue
Lawley and Nicholas Witchell.
1017
01:08:26,020 --> 01:08:29,140
Good evening,
the headlines at 6:00.
1018
01:08:29,180 --> 01:08:31,900
In the House of Lords, a vote
is taking place now on a challenge
1019
01:08:31,940 --> 01:08:33,580
to the poll tax.
1020
01:08:33,620 --> 01:08:34,980
Tory rebels have said the tax...
1021
01:08:35,020 --> 01:08:38,060
This is about rights for lesbian and
gay people!
1022
01:08:38,100 --> 01:08:41,180
And I do apologise if you're hearing
quite a lot of noise in the studio.
1023
01:08:41,220 --> 01:08:42,660
Stop the Clause!
1024
01:08:42,700 --> 01:08:45,340
I'm afraid that we have rather
been invaded by some people
1025
01:08:45,380 --> 01:08:47,340
that we hope to be removing shortly.
1026
01:08:47,380 --> 01:08:49,140
In the meantime...
1027
01:08:49,180 --> 01:08:51,700
And Sue Lawley holding it together
very well,
1028
01:08:51,740 --> 01:08:54,140
I think we all have to agree
she did a masterful job there,
1029
01:08:54,180 --> 01:08:56,300
whereas Nicholas Witchell,
who then went on to be the royal
1030
01:08:56,340 --> 01:08:58,740
correspondent, you know, he got
stuck-in off camera.
1031
01:08:58,780 --> 01:09:01,020
Stop section 28!
1032
01:09:01,060 --> 01:09:04,020
Stop Section 28! Helping
the security guards to squash them
1033
01:09:04,060 --> 01:09:06,100
and get on top of them.
1034
01:09:11,220 --> 01:09:13,700
And direct action is important.
1035
01:09:13,740 --> 01:09:16,900
With one thing done by half
a dozen people,
1036
01:09:16,940 --> 01:09:22,140
you can be on the 9:00 News
and reach the whole country
1037
01:09:22,180 --> 01:09:23,580
and make a point.
1038
01:09:23,620 --> 01:09:27,140
And, you know, sometimes it doesn't
work, but when it really works,
1039
01:09:27,180 --> 01:09:28,860
by God it works.
1040
01:09:28,900 --> 01:09:30,180
And it was horrific.
1041
01:09:30,220 --> 01:09:33,340
And yet, looking back, it was
the thing that brought us
1042
01:09:33,380 --> 01:09:37,060
all together and founded what has
since become one of the most
1043
01:09:37,100 --> 01:09:40,900
successful lesbian and gay
movements in the world,
1044
01:09:40,940 --> 01:09:44,540
because it really pissed
a lot of people off.
1045
01:09:49,380 --> 01:09:53,300
People really became aware
of how oppressive the
1046
01:09:53,340 --> 01:09:55,380
Tory Government were becoming.
1047
01:09:55,420 --> 01:09:57,780
Lots of people came out
and said, "This is not on."
1048
01:09:57,820 --> 01:10:00,500
Then there was far more marching
and far more demonstrating
1049
01:10:00,540 --> 01:10:03,260
and it became very hardcore
with the police.
1050
01:10:03,300 --> 01:10:06,260
And around the same period
was the poll tax, right?
1051
01:10:06,300 --> 01:10:08,700
We were pretty much doing
a riot a week, I think!
1052
01:10:08,740 --> 01:10:12,620
There was a lot of
going on, where we were protesting
1053
01:10:12,660 --> 01:10:14,740
and agitating, really.
1054
01:10:36,940 --> 01:10:40,300
About 1990, I kind of got bored
of the party lifestyle,
1055
01:10:40,340 --> 01:10:41,900
you know, even...
1056
01:10:41,940 --> 01:10:44,820
And I wanted to do something, yeah,
a bit more challenging.
1057
01:10:44,860 --> 01:10:46,900
It was fun.
1058
01:10:46,940 --> 01:10:49,900
But I got, I just got bored of it.
You know, we didn't have...
1059
01:10:49,940 --> 01:10:51,340
Didn't go...
1060
01:10:51,380 --> 01:10:53,820
You can't do the same things
for years on end.
1061
01:10:58,540 --> 01:11:00,340
I moved on.
1062
01:11:00,380 --> 01:11:02,420
There was a point when I dropped
out of the
1063
01:11:02,460 --> 01:11:03,900
Chain Reaction Collective.
1064
01:11:05,420 --> 01:11:07,780
She was pretty much excluded.
1065
01:11:07,820 --> 01:11:13,460
Not exactly for being trans,
but that was a factor that was used.
1066
01:11:13,500 --> 01:11:16,980
It was weird because, like, nobody
would actually say what I'd done,
1067
01:11:17,020 --> 01:11:18,740
and most people just got the idea
1068
01:11:18,780 --> 01:11:20,700
I'd done something, and it was
awful.
1069
01:11:20,740 --> 01:11:23,460
Maybe Roz slept with the wrong
person?
1070
01:11:29,900 --> 01:11:33,540
In the end, all of the fights
and the debates within feminism
1071
01:11:33,580 --> 01:11:35,180
absolutely got me down.
1072
01:11:35,220 --> 01:11:38,660
And in the end, I left London
because it just did my head in.
1073
01:11:38,700 --> 01:11:41,060
I tried to find a squat
in Amsterdam.
1074
01:11:41,100 --> 01:11:42,820
It was fucking freezing.
1075
01:11:44,940 --> 01:11:47,660
Every day, I would take an acid
tab.
1076
01:11:49,860 --> 01:11:53,140
I just lived in this completely
psychedelic, fucked-up world.
1077
01:11:53,180 --> 01:11:55,820
I ended up getting arrested
on some demonstration.
1078
01:11:55,860 --> 01:11:59,660
I still to this day, don't know
what the demonstration was even for.
1079
01:12:02,580 --> 01:12:05,300
And it was actually during those
three days in the police station
1080
01:12:05,340 --> 01:12:07,900
when I sort of detoxed off drugs
and realised this wasn't
1081
01:12:07,940 --> 01:12:09,140
a very good idea.
1082
01:12:12,420 --> 01:12:15,460
After being a traveller for about
a year, which didn't really work,
1083
01:12:15,500 --> 01:12:17,860
I found myself in a women-only
space.
1084
01:12:17,900 --> 01:12:21,940
So it's a rural women-only
community.
1085
01:12:21,980 --> 01:12:25,180
It was bought and paid for by some
of the women coming from Greenham.
1086
01:12:25,220 --> 01:12:28,020
I don't want to say exactly
where it is, because it's kind
1087
01:12:28,060 --> 01:12:29,820
of like a women's refuge.
1088
01:12:38,220 --> 01:12:41,660
People went on and became famous
artists, famous film-makers,
1089
01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:46,780
lecturers, journalists, barristers,
nurses, all sorts of things.
1090
01:12:53,740 --> 01:12:59,220
A few months after Mouth Almighty
split, I actually got my first job
1091
01:12:59,260 --> 01:13:02,380
as an indie guitarist with
the band Curve.
1092
01:13:02,420 --> 01:13:05,340
I saw them on the telly
on the Monday, answered the advert
1093
01:13:05,380 --> 01:13:06,820
on the Wednesday.
1094
01:13:06,860 --> 01:13:10,140
I went to the audition on the Friday
and was in the band by teatime,
1095
01:13:10,180 --> 01:13:11,980
so that was good!
1096
01:13:36,220 --> 01:13:40,820
At least I hope that nowadays
for young people, it's much easier
1097
01:13:40,860 --> 01:13:42,460
to be what they are.
1098
01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:47,580
And I think it's taken this 30 years
to develop that people can start
1099
01:13:47,620 --> 01:13:52,100
feeling more comfortable
in the way they feel inside.
1100
01:13:54,700 --> 01:13:58,700
I'm about to start a new club, which
is about - all women welcome.
1101
01:13:58,740 --> 01:14:02,020
It means queer folks,
it means nonbinary.
1102
01:14:05,940 --> 01:14:08,620
You know, when I hear my
nieces and nephews talk
1103
01:14:08,660 --> 01:14:12,940
about their experiences with gay
and lesbian young kids...
1104
01:14:14,380 --> 01:14:16,020
..that's what I kind of go,
1105
01:14:16,060 --> 01:14:17,820
"We've moved on."
1106
01:14:21,780 --> 01:14:25,580
The trouble is that we've gone
so far into the mainstream
1107
01:14:25,620 --> 01:14:28,580
and we're so respectable
now, that we're losing all our
1108
01:14:28,620 --> 01:14:31,380
sharp edges and we're losing our
ability to be the rebels.
1109
01:14:42,780 --> 01:14:47,420
One thing I find most amusing
is about SM,
1110
01:14:47,460 --> 01:14:52,540
because it was very secretive
in the '80s, and it's taken
1111
01:14:52,580 --> 01:14:58,300
all these 30 years to become
something like of a normal thing.
1112
01:14:58,340 --> 01:15:01,620
And now you see these books
like Fifty Shades Of Grey,
1113
01:15:01,660 --> 01:15:03,580
and it's a normal thing,
1114
01:15:03,620 --> 01:15:06,420
you know, anybody does it
and they discuss it, you know,
1115
01:15:06,460 --> 01:15:08,100
in their workplace.
1116
01:15:12,460 --> 01:15:15,860
I can have sex in private now,
and still enjoy myself!
1117
01:15:18,260 --> 01:15:21,260
Yeah, and in the end, it isn't two
groups, is it?
1118
01:15:21,300 --> 01:15:23,060
No groups are homogeneous. No.
1119
01:15:23,100 --> 01:15:26,380
But the thing about us as SM dykes
was that we were ostracised
1120
01:15:26,420 --> 01:15:28,580
from the lesbian community,
and so we formed
1121
01:15:28,620 --> 01:15:29,780
a family around that.
1122
01:15:29,820 --> 01:15:32,300
And, you know, 30 years
later, we're still friends
1123
01:15:32,340 --> 01:15:36,220
because there was a very few of us
that felt we were really interested
1124
01:15:36,260 --> 01:15:39,460
in sex and being positive about sex.
1125
01:15:48,140 --> 01:15:52,100
It was like a real energy
of what people had and they wanted
1126
01:15:52,140 --> 01:15:54,580
to share and they wanted to explore.
1127
01:15:54,620 --> 01:15:59,500
And that's maybe why it
continued after the collapse
1128
01:15:59,540 --> 01:16:03,580
and after the moment, that people
took it in their lives
1129
01:16:03,620 --> 01:16:05,180
and they continued.
1130
01:16:11,380 --> 01:16:15,580
Every Tuesday, we took over the Gay
Men's Club in Vauxhall.
1131
01:16:15,620 --> 01:16:21,340
We started the UK's first ever
lesbian S&M night, Chain Reaction!
1132
01:16:24,220 --> 01:16:26,300
We wanted what
1133
01:16:26,340 --> 01:16:30,020
the gay men had access to,
places to have sex!
1134
01:16:53,460 --> 01:16:58,460
The show I'm doing now is my
perspective of gay pride
1135
01:16:58,500 --> 01:17:01,340
from the viewpoint of a rebel dyke.
1136
01:17:01,380 --> 01:17:04,540
So there's that whole thing
of just being always challenging,
1137
01:17:04,580 --> 01:17:08,660
always challenging the norm,
challenging what's expected
1138
01:17:08,700 --> 01:17:11,020
and getting power from doing
something else.
1139
01:17:11,060 --> 01:17:14,140
And, you know, I've been called
sir my whole, my whole life!
1140
01:17:14,180 --> 01:17:18,140
And so I thought, "OK, I could
probably be a drag king again."
1141
01:17:18,180 --> 01:17:21,700
Funnily enough, the drag king
community very much reminds me
1142
01:17:21,740 --> 01:17:25,100
of the rebel dyke community,
because we're a minority
1143
01:17:25,140 --> 01:17:27,060
and we've got each other's backs.
1144
01:17:27,100 --> 01:17:29,940
And that's a really, really lovely
feeling.
1145
01:17:51,420 --> 01:17:54,340
We as older lesbians have paved
the way so that younger people
1146
01:17:54,380 --> 01:17:57,380
can come along and have kind
of like the freedom
1147
01:17:57,420 --> 01:17:58,740
that they've got now.
1148
01:17:58,780 --> 01:18:01,380
Not that most,
most of us have any clue.
1149
01:18:01,420 --> 01:18:05,220
In the same way, I had no clue
about all the previous
1150
01:18:05,260 --> 01:18:07,740
older lesbians that had gone before
me.
1151
01:18:07,780 --> 01:18:10,780
It's very necessary that this story
gets told because we all stand
1152
01:18:10,820 --> 01:18:12,300
on the shoulders of giants.
1153
01:18:12,340 --> 01:18:14,780
And if the women hadn't started
Gateways, we would never
1154
01:18:14,820 --> 01:18:16,580
have started Chain Reaction.
1155
01:18:16,620 --> 01:18:20,180
But this story has been so far
unsaid, so I'm very happy
1156
01:18:20,220 --> 01:18:22,620
that it's finally been documented.
1157
01:19:00,180 --> 01:19:03,100
I don't want to be a straight gay,
which is how we used to refer
1158
01:19:03,140 --> 01:19:05,100
to people like that in the '80s.
1159
01:19:05,140 --> 01:19:08,940
For me, the whole point of gay
liberation, the whole point
1160
01:19:08,980 --> 01:19:12,980
of coming out is to come out
as yourself, whatever that is,
1161
01:19:13,020 --> 01:19:14,780
wherever it leads you.
1162
01:19:14,820 --> 01:19:16,220
You should be yourself.
1163
01:19:16,260 --> 01:19:20,660
And rebel dykes in the '80s
did that at a time when there
1164
01:19:20,700 --> 01:19:24,460
were really far too many people,
both inside the movement
1165
01:19:24,500 --> 01:19:29,220
and in in the general public,
all trying to tell us how to behave.
1166
01:19:29,260 --> 01:19:32,660
And, you know, we had to fight long
and hard to find our place.
1167
01:19:32,700 --> 01:19:34,220
But, you know, we did.
1168
01:19:34,260 --> 01:19:35,940
I mean, look at lesbian society now.
1169
01:19:35,980 --> 01:19:37,660
That's cos we did that.
1170
01:19:37,700 --> 01:19:40,140
We did that.
Be thankful.
1171
01:20:03,220 --> 01:20:05,180
# I let her take me home
1172
01:20:05,220 --> 01:20:06,780
# Even I knew the signs
1173
01:20:15,300 --> 01:20:17,340
# What can you do with a girl
1174
01:20:17,380 --> 01:20:19,460
# That is not hard?
1175
01:20:23,580 --> 01:20:26,180
# So even though I knew
1176
01:20:26,220 --> 01:20:28,500
# She was trouble from the start
1177
01:20:29,580 --> 01:20:33,300
# I stayed another night and I'm
still yawning
1178
01:21:01,020 --> 01:21:02,500
# I met a girl
1179
01:21:02,540 --> 01:21:05,140
# She never had much time
1180
01:21:14,820 --> 01:21:18,620
# I stayed another month and I'm not
sorry
1181
01:22:50,780 --> 01:22:52,340
# I met a girl
1182
01:22:52,380 --> 01:22:55,260
# She never had a heart
1183
01:22:55,300 --> 01:22:58,620
# I should have known it from the
start
1184
01:23:03,500 --> 01:23:08,740
# Well, I know it wasn't smart
1185
01:23:08,780 --> 01:23:12,140
# But I'm not sorry. #
102330
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