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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:09,800 In May 1945, American soldiers crawled into a cave 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,480 in these mountains behind me 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,880 and uncovered a treasure trove. 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:19,480 Over 6,500 paintings, 2,300 drawings and watercolours, 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,480 and over 1,000 pieces of sculpture and tapestries. 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,320 From 1939, as the Nazis swept through Europe, 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,000 they not only destroyed homes and decimated populations. 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,520 They also plundered cultural property 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,040 from every territory they occupied. 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,440 But what else were they after? 11 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:42,320 Why did much of it end up in caves? 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,960 And how much is still out there 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,000 waiting to be discovered? 14 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,000 The Nazis were so keen to get their hands on all of Europe's 15 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,200 treasures for two reasons. 16 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,840 One was because it would establish Germany 17 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,520 as the centre of world culture. 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,800 And two, because individual Nazis wanted to line their own pockets. 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,560 It was the largest art theft 20 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,760 that the world has ever known. 21 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,040 It was taken from all over Europe. 22 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,960 And God knows how many pieces of art 23 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,160 that the Nazis actually accumulated. 24 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,440 The Monuments Men were an international organisation. 25 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,720 Their job was to go out into Europe and into Southeast Asia 26 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,160 and collect the vast amount of looted treasure, 27 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,560 artworks and artefacts. 28 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,600 It's nearly impossible to put a finger on the value of the art, 29 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,920 the gold, the relics that the Nazis stole. 30 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:39,680 It has to be in the tens of billions... 31 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,920 ..if not more. 32 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,200 From 1939 to 1945, 33 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,120 the deadliest conflict in the history of mankind, 34 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,720 the Second World War, raged. 35 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,200 But beneath the bombs and amongst the marching armies, 36 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,160 another perhaps often overlooked battle was going on. 37 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,440 The fight to stop the Nazis from stealing the cultural 38 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,800 treasures of Europe. 39 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,040 By 1943, Nazi plundering had risen to such heights 40 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,000 that the Allies created a special division to fight back. 41 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,120 They were known as the Monuments Men. 42 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,040 They consisted of just a few hundred men 43 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,880 and leading it was a group of museum directors, 44 00:02:55,920 --> 00:03:00,000 curators and art scholars who were all signed up to military duties. 45 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,240 Their job description was simple - 46 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,360 to save as much of the culture of Europe as they could during combat. 47 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,840 The Nazis were so obsessed 48 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,280 to gather Europe's treasures and relics 49 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:21,840 for several reasons. 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,160 One - national pride. 51 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,360 Two - they wanted to demonstrate that they uniquely had 52 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,760 ancient Aryan origins and that they were worthy 53 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,080 of these relics, and only they alone. 54 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,280 And third - it was residual wealth 55 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,080 to fund their ever-increasing war booty. 56 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,440 So, the Monuments Men were formed into a platoon 57 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,800 and basically put in the front line 58 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,520 to get to the artworks and the monuments as quickly as possible 59 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,000 to stop them being destroyed by the Nazis, 60 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,400 or hidden away at the bottom of a lake or in a salt mine or whatever. 61 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,200 So, incredibly brave, very knowledgeable people, 62 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,560 who did manage to recover a lot of artwork. 63 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,080 They were experts in art 64 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,080 and sculpture and artefacts. 65 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,280 But also, they were preservers - they had techniques 66 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,280 for preserving the artwork that they found. 67 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,640 They had a list of all the treasures 68 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,560 and the arts and the relics and the rest of it that had been plundered 69 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,440 from various cultural centres like the Louvre and other museums 70 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,160 and they wanted to go and grab it back 71 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,680 from the Nazis, and they did this actually before the end of the war. 72 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,720 Europe was still one giant battlefield, but they felt about it 73 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,360 so strongly that they wanted to go out and risk life and limb 74 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,760 to get back these treasures which the Nazis had taken 75 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,480 with no compunction whatsoever. 76 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,240 Once the war was over, 77 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:54,000 the extent to which the Nazis 78 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,480 had pillaged Europe's treasures became clear. 79 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,840 The big question was, where had they stashed it? 80 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,000 And so the Monuments Men were given a new task - to find it. 81 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:08,840 The quest for answers 82 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,720 took them to the Austrian Alps. 83 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,560 And deep inside the Altaussee salt mines, 84 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,040 the Monuments Men hit the jackpot. 85 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,000 They discovered that this series of mines, 86 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,280 stretching some 60km inside the mountain, 87 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,680 was used by the Nazis to store some of their most precious stolen art. 88 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,120 Its location is remote and hard to reach 89 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,240 but I'm meeting local mountain guide Marc Unterberger 90 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,560 to help unravel the secrets of the mines. 91 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,320 Oh, wow. 92 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,400 It's a pretty good hiding place. JAMIE LAUGHS 93 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,040 So, what did the Monuments Men find down here? 94 00:05:55,080 --> 00:06:00,120 So, they find the most...or one of the biggest art collections 95 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,960 during the Second World War. During this time, 96 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,640 they hide here in the mountain 7,000 pieces of paintings, sculptures, 97 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,800 documents, gold, a little bit, and also other stuff. 98 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:16,720 And so, that's an enormous collection. 99 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,920 Yes, it's... Do we know what the value was? 100 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,080 You can't count it because until today 101 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,480 if you say, "What's the price of the Madonna?" 102 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,200 you don't have any... Sure. Any ideas. 103 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,840 And what kind of artists are we talking about? 104 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,200 I mean they were... So, we have all the big old artists 105 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,400 like Rubens, Michelangelo, 106 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,240 Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Van Eyck. 107 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:43,880 Also the biggest or the important... 108 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,240 What they find in here, the Ghent Altar. 109 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,040 When they set out to see what they could find, they were shocked 110 00:06:54,080 --> 00:07:01,120 at the hoards of fine art, of gold, of silver, of stash of the Nazis 111 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,920 of one kind or another, and they were quite horrified 112 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,400 cos it gave them an inkling as to the magnitude 113 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:12,200 of what had just gone on - they had no idea it was a huge movement, 114 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,560 and most of the museums of Europe had been depleted. 115 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,440 Going ever deeper into the labyrinth of tunnels, 116 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,600 we were heading towards a cave known as Springerwerk, 117 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,480 one of the locations of the stolen art. 118 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,320 Which way are we going? We're going this way - straight. OK. 119 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,160 So, now, 700 metres deep in the mountain, we're getting 120 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,120 to one of the eight storage rooms, 121 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,080 the so-called Springerwerk. 122 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,320 You can already see the wood constructions. 123 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,400 Yeah. And they begin to build everything here in the mountain 124 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,120 in summer '43. 125 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,640 And in the winter of '43, the first paintings 126 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,560 get here in the mountain. 127 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,200 Right, OK. So, this is the room 128 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,480 where the pictures and the artwork... Exactly. 129 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:05,760 It's not only... 130 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,760 This room, what you see in front of you, 131 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,360 it's this big chamber we're standing right now. Oh, yeah - wow! 132 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,200 Look at this. And to build everything in the mountain beneath, 133 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,000 over 1,200 cubic metres of wood. 134 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,200 Right, to secure the tunnels. Exactly. 135 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,040 And what's this? "Vorsicht..." 136 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,600 My German's not so good. 137 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,240 You see... MARC READS IN GERMAN 138 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,720 What means, "Attention - marble. Don't drop." 139 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,560 Because if we open the box, 140 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,400 we can see why we should not drop it. 141 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,120 What is it? This is a bomb 142 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,880 which was dropped over Linz during the Second World War 143 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,160 and which did not explode, and the Gauleiter decided 144 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,200 to blow all the art in the mountain during the last days of the war up 145 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,640 so that everything was destroyed. 146 00:08:54,680 --> 00:08:56,920 So, this is an unexploded bomb? 147 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,240 Exactly. 148 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,240 Fine. And, uh... 149 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,560 The reason why they had bombs here was because when the... 150 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,840 If the Allies had discovered the artworks, they were going 151 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:12,400 to blow everything up. Exactly. So, before they can discover it, 152 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,640 the Nazis decided if the Third Reich goes away, 153 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:21,800 it goes away with all the warriors and also with the art. 154 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,720 Right - so, if the Nazis weren't going to have it, no-one was going 155 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,520 to have it. Exactly. OK, we'll put this down very gently. 156 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:31,080 The Monuments Men worked very closely 157 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,840 with intelligence teams and divisions and they were able to talk 158 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,120 to local people, displaced persons, 159 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,840 and uncover a huge amount of information about what had been 160 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,600 hidden where, because it takes a lot of manpower 161 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,320 to move that amount of material into mines, 162 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,800 seal it up, build the necessary fortifications around it, 163 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,440 and people talked about this. 164 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,720 So, in some instances, the Monuments Men found this information just 165 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,520 by talking to locals. 166 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,560 So, now, this is the place... 167 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,560 ..where all the art was carried away, 168 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,000 and you can see now only the empty boxes. 169 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,880 So, this very room 170 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,440 would have housed artworks from old masters... Exactly. 171 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,440 ..Vermeer, Rembrandt... The big names we know 172 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,560 we have here in this storage room. 173 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,960 So, this would've been at the time the most important 174 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,080 art collection in the world. Exactly. 175 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,320 You can say until this time, it's the... 176 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,600 The treasury of the world. 177 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,280 When it comes to valuing these things, obviously if they ever were 178 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,760 to come on the open market, we're talking about millions and millions 179 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,120 and millions of pounds. Sure. 180 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,200 All stored in a mine under the mountain. 181 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,960 People watching this programme will say, 182 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,120 "What a ridiculous place to put valuable works of art!" 183 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,360 In a salt mine, dripping with water. 184 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:11,200 Damp, awful conditions - but basically, you go into the salt mine 185 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,760 where these works of art were stored and you've got perfect conditions. 186 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,640 It's perfectly dry. 187 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:22,520 The conditions are, for some reason, better than the basements 188 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:24,920 of the Tate or anywhere else. 189 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,000 And when you actually look at the wood... 190 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,040 ..it's as if I'd sort of knocked the nails in last week 191 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:33,720 and created these frames. 192 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,400 It was perfect. And that's why they stored all the works of art there. 193 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,600 Hitler's plan to keep all these classic works of art preserved 194 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,240 in such excellent condition eventually worked to the benefit 195 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:50,440 of the Monuments Men. 196 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,120 And much of what was recovered can now be found 197 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:54,960 in museums across the world. 198 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,960 But it wasn't just paintings stashed in chambers like this one. 199 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,240 The Nazis had stored lots of stolen property in these mines, 200 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,440 from sculptures to coin collections and even gold. 201 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,400 It's a little bit like the scene in Raiders Of The Lost Ark, 202 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,080 when they discover where all the hidden artworks were held. 203 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,640 This was... This was it. This was literally the place. 204 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:24,080 Certainly, and we're standing right now where the pictures 205 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,960 in the movies you see, 206 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,480 here is where the past happens. 207 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,440 And what would you say was the most famous work of art 208 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,280 that was kept down here? 209 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,800 There is a lot of famous art here in the mountain, 210 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,200 but one of the important ones, not only for me, 211 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,680 was from Michelangelo, 212 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,040 the Madonna, and also 213 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,960 the Ghent Altar. 214 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,320 So, if you can say this to... what the most know. 215 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:54,240 And was any of it damaged, 216 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,520 or was it all kept in pretty good...? No. 217 00:12:56,560 --> 00:13:00,080 Most... What's... What's here in the mountain 218 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,760 was just well-preserved 219 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,360 because of the conditions. 220 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:04,680 Uh... 221 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,160 They didn't find everything here in the mountains, 222 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:09,880 they're not 100%. 223 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,280 Just tiny pieces or a tiny part 224 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,400 of the art got lost, 225 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,520 but they don't know it if the... 226 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,200 ..if by the transport here to the mine, 227 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,280 in the mine, or as the soldiers, the Americans 228 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,240 take it away back to their owner. 229 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,920 So, you're saying that there's a possibility 230 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,160 that there could still be treasure down here? 231 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,760 The one... Well, others say maybe in the mine 232 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,880 is still a piece of art. 233 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,360 So, if you find this, yeah. 234 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,160 You know what this means. 235 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,040 You can keep it? THEY LAUGH 236 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,400 I don't know. I'll try it. 237 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,040 If I find something, yeah. 238 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:48,360 I'm not standing here. 239 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,840 Yeah, we should start looking, right? 240 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,520 The Monuments Men were incredibly successful 241 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:01,280 in what they discovered in the Altaussee mine in Austria, 242 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,360 but also in other hiding places, 243 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,560 like the Merkers mine in Germany itself. 244 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,760 Their efforts after the end of the Second World War 245 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,680 led to more than 5 million 246 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,640 works of art being saved, 247 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:15,560 including paintings by Van Eyck, 248 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,040 Michelangelo, Rembrandt 249 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,120 and even Da Vinci's Mona Lisa 250 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,000 and the Last Supper. 251 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,600 But despite their monumental efforts, 252 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,160 a huge amount of artworks 253 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,520 are still missing, 254 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,360 and so the search continues to this day. 255 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,120 Remarkably, there's even a possibility 256 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,600 that some of the stolen Nazi treasure 257 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,480 remains hidden in the Altaussee mine itself, 258 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,360 or the surrounding locality. 259 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,480 Few people know the history of the area better 260 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,920 than local historian Hans Fuchs. 261 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,520 There he is. 262 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,440 Hi, Hans. Jamie. Hello. How are you? 263 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:04,960 Hello. Come in. Thank you. 264 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,000 Hello. 265 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,640 Thanks for agreeing to meet me. Hello, hello. 266 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,640 So, I just had a fascinating look around the mine. 267 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,200 You were at the mine? It's amazing. 268 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,800 It was great for you? Yeah. 269 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,080 What have you got to show me? 270 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,360 Jamie, I have a map for you. 271 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,200 You can see we are here now, 272 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:24,680 Steinberghaus, yes? 273 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,680 You can see the Steinberghaus. Yeah. 274 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,400 And here you go inside 275 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,720 and you were here in Springerwerk. 276 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:31,760 Yes. 277 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,760 So, this is where I explored here... Yes. ..where the paint... 278 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,080 This is where the paintings and the artwork was being... 279 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,560 Where the paintings... ..was kept. 280 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,360 Yes, but there are many other spots 281 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,880 in the salt mine. 282 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,040 That's here... Yeah. ..here, here. 283 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,120 So, it... Can I go and...? 284 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,160 Can I go and see these other places as well? 285 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,360 You can't go inside here because it's very dangerous, yes? Right. 286 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,920 Stones broke down and it's... 287 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,440 So, the mine has collapsed? 288 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,720 Yes, the mine has collapsed here. 289 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,080 But this was a small room, 290 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,720 what you're seeing, 291 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,920 much more bigger... Really? 292 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:12,160 ..these spots, and all was filed with artwork. 293 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,720 Really? Yes. 294 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,560 The vast amount of stolen art discovered by the Monuments Men 295 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,080 in the Altaussee salt mine 296 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,280 is just one part of a network of locations throughout Europe 297 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,480 that held the Nazi stolen treasures. 298 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,640 I have brought you a list. 299 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:36,920 Yes? 300 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,680 A list from the Nazis... 301 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,960 ..and the Monuments Men... 302 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,360 ..make a file... Right. 303 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,680 ..from Washington National Archive, 304 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,240 and you can see how much buildings, 305 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,560 sculptures, crimes was... Wow. So, OK... 306 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:55,680 ..was inside. 307 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,800 So, this is declass... This is declassified documents, 308 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,160 and forgive... My German's not very good. 309 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,120 So, what is it telling us here? 310 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,640 This is mosaics...? 311 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:06,960 OK, uh... 312 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,600 You can see 6,500 paintings 313 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,160 aquarelles, graphics... 314 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,240 Aquarelles meant... This is watercolours? 315 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:16,960 Watercolours, yes, yes. 316 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,920 So, this is an extraordinary amount. 317 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,800 But here...1,200... 318 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,480 HE SPEAKS GERMAN 319 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,000 Boxes. 320 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,560 And nobody knows what was in the boxes, yes? 321 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,040 So, these were like the crates that I saw? Yes. 322 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,640 The big wooden crates? Yes, yes. 323 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,240 Is it possible that there could be some other paintings or artwork 324 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,080 hidden still in the mine? 325 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:44,200 Maybe, maybe, 326 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,880 but I cannot say it. 327 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,440 Maybe. Sure. 328 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,800 The Monuments Men were incredibly successful. 329 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,400 I think they were surprised by their own success. 330 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,960 We have photographs of them standing by, you know, 331 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,960 classic works of art. 332 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,840 Standing by gold bullion stacked as tall as they are. 333 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,600 You know, jars full of gold teeth 334 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,480 that presumably were taken 335 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,760 from Holocaust victims. 336 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,520 I mean, shock waves went through 337 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,320 the Allies when they realised 338 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,720 just the extent of how the Nazis 339 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,760 had pillaged EVERYTHING in Europe. 340 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,080 They found all these fabulous works of art. 341 00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:29,280 That's one thing, 342 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,640 but then they suddenly come across bags and boxes 343 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,240 that are absolutely crammed full of gold fillings 344 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,080 from people's teeth, 345 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:41,960 and thousands and thousands of gold wedding rings 346 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,760 stored in the salt mines. 347 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,120 But it wasn't just art 348 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,000 that Hitler was after. 349 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,800 In this museum here in front of me 350 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,120 lies an altogether different artefact 351 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:04,360 that the Nazis took. 352 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,120 The Hofburg Palace in Vienna 353 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,240 was used by the Nazis to store looted art. 354 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,000 But it also held treasures of its own. 355 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,680 Hitler wanted to build his Third Reich 356 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,800 on strong cultural foundations from the past, 357 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,640 and so the Nazis also hunted for relics, 358 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,040 something Heinrich Himmler knew a lot about. 359 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,440 And one object in particular 360 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,160 captured their attention. 361 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,920 And this...is that object. 362 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,000 Now back here in Vienna, 363 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,200 it's called the Spear of Destiny, 364 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:42,600 or the Holy Lance, 365 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,920 and it's said to have pierced the side of Christ himself 366 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,040 at the time of the Crucifixion. 367 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,400 Now, embedded within it, 368 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,240 supposedly, is one of the nails 369 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,880 that attached Jesus to the cross, which, if you think about it, 370 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,960 is an odd thing for an atheist like Adolf Hitler 371 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,120 to be interested in. 372 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,720 It's hard to really separate what Hitler was trying to acquire 373 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,520 from what Himmler was trying to acquire, 374 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,400 but I think we could safely say 375 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,600 Hitler wanted the fine art, 376 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,240 the masterpieces 377 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,280 of the classical world. 378 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,600 Himmler wanted the relics, 379 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,400 he wanted the Holy Grail, 380 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,120 he wanted the crystal skulls. 381 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,480 He wanted things that would prove Germany's Aryan roots, 382 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,520 and together, it was a quite formidable combination. 383 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,840 They were both very motivated by this idea of the Aryan super race 384 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,560 and the history of Aryanism and Ariosophy, 385 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,240 and for them this was more than just 386 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,600 a political mantra. 387 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,160 This was something that was 388 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,080 almost spiritual in its veneration 389 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:46,560 of the Germanic-ness 390 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,080 and the Germanic race. 391 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:51,480 But Himmler had this crackpot occult side to him as well 392 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,520 that Hitler gave him free rein to indulge. 393 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:02,280 Dr Franz Kirchweger is a curator at the Hofburg Palace, 394 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,360 and can shed some light on why Hitler and the Nazis 395 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,160 were so interested in the lance. 396 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,000 Does the lance you have in the museum 397 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,120 actually date from the time of the Crucifixion, 398 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,640 and could it have been used to pierce the side of Christ? 399 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,320 It's incredibly difficult 400 00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,280 to give a definite answer 401 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,960 about relics in any sense, 402 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,400 and everywhere, whether they 403 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,760 are real, coming from the time of Christ, 404 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,240 and whether they have been used during the Passion of Christ. 405 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,560 As far as the lance is concerned, 406 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:38,920 the spear is concerned, 407 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,640 we definitely know that the way it looks like 408 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,400 is from a different age 409 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,560 than from Christ, Jesus Christ. 410 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,440 It comes from the Carolingian time - 411 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,200 that means late 8th century. 412 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,560 Even if we have something within the Holy Lance 413 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,440 which is in the middle, 414 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,120 which was understood as to come from the Crucifixion of Christ 415 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,520 as one of the holy nails, 416 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,080 even if we could find a way to prove 417 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:10,520 it comes from the time of Jesus Christ, 418 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,840 we will probably never know if it was really used 419 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,760 for this very specific moment 420 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,480 that makes it a relic. 421 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,560 So, for us, it's difficult, 422 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,720 how to deal with, believe and the knowledge. 423 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,480 There is so much in between 424 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,520 that makes it uncertain and unclear 425 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,080 whether that's really the real relic. 426 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:31,440 Himmler was very centred 427 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,880 upon the idea of relics, 428 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,960 and of charging magically objects. 429 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,400 He had the idea that he could surround his SS officers in a room 430 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:44,600 for a ritual, 431 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,720 with alleged relics 432 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,400 or certainly objects of symbolic value 433 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,120 that somehow would 434 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:57,480 set off into the room magical vibes that they could pick up on 435 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,160 and that would fuel their souls 436 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,120 in what might be termed evil. 437 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,520 Himmler has his kind of Nazi Camelot. 438 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,160 So Wewelsburg Castle, a residence that he bought before the war. 439 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,360 He even had an Arthurian round table there, 440 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,960 and he wanted to bring to Wewelsburg 441 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,520 the treasures from the Passion of Christ. 442 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,160 So, he wanted the Crown of Thorns, 443 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:23,840 he wanted the Holy Grail, 444 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,560 he wanted the Holy Lance, 445 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,480 and he did manage to get some of those things to Wewelsburg, 446 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,200 in the hope that he could turn it into this SS capital city 447 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,400 and that he would be the Nazi King Arthur 448 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,760 and that the mystical power would help them to win the war. 449 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,000 It's OK for us to have people 450 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,480 who want to believe these stories, 451 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,600 and the ones that say, 452 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,160 "No, we don't have this specific proof." 453 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,800 And I can tell you especially 454 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,800 as far as the lance is concerned, 455 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,800 we are still in the process, 456 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,880 among scholars, 457 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,240 to find out whether there is a chance 458 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,000 that small parts maybe 459 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,560 of a former holy lance 460 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,960 or of a former holy nail 461 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,080 was integrated, was forced into the lance. 462 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:14,520 So there are options that we can say for sure, 463 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,840 "No, that's definitely not true," 464 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,600 or we can say, "It's definitely true." 465 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,080 So there is still a way of - even for the ones who want to believe - 466 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:24,920 to do so. 467 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,560 It's not easy to get inside the head of Himmler. 468 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,640 But when you do, you realise his quest for these ancient relics - 469 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,200 whether it be the Spear of Destiny or the Holy Grail or others - 470 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,600 was not just for a trophy. 471 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,040 Somehow, he felt that these objects were talismans 472 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:51,560 for the Nazis to become the most prestigious power 473 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,560 the planet has ever known. 474 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,400 And that's what the quest was for. 475 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,240 The quest was for power through ancient relics. 476 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,840 Although Hitler may not have been quite so obsessed with relics, 477 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,200 he certainly had a passion for art, which originated from his youth. 478 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,440 The young Adolf Hitler famously failed to gain entrance 479 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,680 to the Vienna Art Academy here behind me. 480 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,960 Apparently he was very good at drawing buildings, 481 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,640 less so people. 482 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,600 But that didn't stop him from believing himself 483 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,200 to be an art connoisseur. 484 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,120 And so once he'd come to power, back in 1933, almost immediately 485 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,000 his artistic preferences became law. 486 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,200 Nowhere was this more apparent than in the art festivals 487 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,120 which took place in Munich from 1937. 488 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,840 The Great German Art Exhibition was a grand display of works 489 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,840 that Hitler approved of, 490 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,280 from idealised soldiers and landscapes to German women. 491 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,440 A few streets away, 492 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,360 the Degenerate Art exhibition did the opposite. 493 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,360 Here, people were invited to come and laugh at modern abstract art, 494 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,640 art that Hitler didn't like. 495 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,880 He wanted the good stuff, as he called it. 496 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,160 He wanted the old masters, the very valuable stuff. 497 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,240 And so he wanted it from everywhere that he took over - 498 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,120 Czechoslovakia, Poland, France. 499 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,160 He wanted all of the masters, he wanted them over into Germany 500 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,600 so he could have them, so he could own them. 501 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,400 But the other stuff, the degenerative art, 502 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,480 that had to be destroyed. 503 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,560 But then, of course, they realised that actually there was money in it, 504 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,080 or, of course, it could be sold. 505 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:50,280 A lot of it was destroyed, a lot of it was sold. 506 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,600 The big question, of course, is, where did all this art come from? 507 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:57,920 The answer? 508 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,200 It was taken from Germany's art galleries and museums 509 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,240 and stolen from its people. 510 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,840 In 1938, Austria was incorporated into the Reich, 511 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,360 and more art became available to the regime, and the Nazis took it. 512 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,360 It was the Reichsleiter Rosenberg Institute that was set up, 513 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,320 basically, to co-ordinate... 514 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:29,680 ..bringing of all the works of art from all around Europe to Germany. 515 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,080 As the Nazis moved into one country after another, 516 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:39,560 they basically carry out the mass looting of museums, of libraries. 517 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,400 They went for extraordinary things like church bells. 518 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,120 They took all the stained glass out of Strasbourg Cathedral 519 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,480 and shipped it off. 520 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,640 And some of these museums - the Louvre, for example - 521 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,200 desperately tried to hide their artworks before the Nazis arrived, 522 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,760 and the Nazis would have people go out to find it 523 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,440 and bring it back into Germany. 524 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,040 There was one artwork that Hitler was especially keen 525 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,360 to get his hands on - 526 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,520 the Art of Painting 527 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,880 by the Dutch painter Vermeer. 528 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,800 But he faced a problem - 529 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,240 it couldn't simply be taken. 530 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,840 And so he had to resort to more legal means. 531 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,960 And in November 1940, he acquired it through his agent... 532 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,760 ..something that art expert Konrad Kramar is very familiar with. 533 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,720 Ah! And this is it, the famous Vermeer! 534 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,120 It is. It's a beautiful painting. It is. 535 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,800 And it's in a very small room after all, interestingly. 536 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,320 I mean, they could have placed it in one of the big halls. 537 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,520 But still, that's the place where it is. 538 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:51,120 So it's fair to say that this was one of Hitler's favourite paintings. 539 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,840 Well, even more than that, it was his favourite painting. 540 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,320 And he was so obsessed by it from its young days 541 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,440 that he wrote about it, talked about it, 542 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,440 and when the time came, he found out he couldn't loot it. 543 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,560 Normally, he would ruthlessly have them all looted, 544 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,480 especially here in Vienna from the Jewish families. 545 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,040 But, as it was, 546 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,720 this picture here wasn't in the possession of a Jewish family. 547 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:27,000 It was a wealthy, very high-ranking Austrian noble family, the Czernins. 548 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,680 And the Czernins were, 549 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,760 to be quite frank, very hard to put under pressure 550 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,440 because they were wealthy, they were rich, they were powerful. 551 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,720 So it was kind of difficult to have them sell this painting. 552 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,120 Do we know how much he paid for it? 553 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,880 Well, in today's money, 554 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,680 it would be about five million euros, you could say. 555 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,400 So this was in Hitler's own private collection. 556 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:01,280 Well, it ended up - as we all know - in Altaussee, in the mine. 557 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,200 It was planned to go and be one of the most prominent pieces 558 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,160 in his Fuhrermuseum. 559 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,960 But the Vermeer painting was a notable exception. 560 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,080 As the war raged and Hitler's armies swept across Europe, 561 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,720 countries like Poland, France and Belgium had their art stolen. 562 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,880 The Nazis plundered the galleries and private collections of Europe 563 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,080 on an unprecedented scale. 564 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,760 And by the end of the war, millions of pieces of art - 565 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,920 from paintings to sculptures - were stolen. 566 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,160 Some made their way into the private hands of the Nazi leadership, 567 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:46,040 but most of it was destined for Hitler's Fuhrermuseum in Linz. 568 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,960 So, of course, the Nazis were taking artworks 569 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,800 that had been owned by Jewish people. 570 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,040 And clearly, the owners had been carted off to concentration camps, 571 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,360 so they could simply take that artwork, 572 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,800 but also, they went after art they knew was there. 573 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,280 After all, a lot of this art was catalogued. They knew it existed. 574 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,240 So they would go that artwork ruthlessly, 575 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,920 interrogating people, breaking into museums, 576 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,240 breaking into private residences, breaking into private libraries 577 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,880 and ransacking them. 578 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,600 The Nazis collected so much art and so many relics, you have to ask, 579 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,360 "What were they intending to do with it all?" 580 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,080 Well, of course, we know that Hitler was planning 581 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,960 his own museum in his hometown that was going to display a lot of it, 582 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,880 a lot of the classical art. 583 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,240 Then you have Wewelsburg, where you can be assured 584 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,160 that the most sacred relics would have been on display 585 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,880 for only the Nazi elite, not the general public. 586 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,640 Things like the Holy Grail, they would have gone there. 587 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,680 And then the coffers of Himmler and Goering 588 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,720 and all the other Nazi elite, 589 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,240 they would take some for themselves, certainly. 590 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,840 And they would probably keep some hidden, 591 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,120 because it's a source of wealth that they would need to fuel 592 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,160 the Third Reich into the future. 593 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,400 Just give me an idea of how important the Fuhrermuseum 594 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:07,840 was to Adolf Hitler. 595 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,840 I would say he followed this plan since he was young, 596 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,680 since he was a young man, 597 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,400 and he followed this plan until the end. 598 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:24,400 If you look at the Fuhrerbunker in Berlin in the spring of '45, 599 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,720 days before Hitler died, 600 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:33,240 he spent most of the time staring at the model of the Fuhrermuseum - 601 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,680 still dreaming of this place which he wanted to have 602 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,720 and which he thought would be, somehow... 603 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,760 ..the thing he would leave for world history. 604 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,400 So it was going to be his legacy. 605 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,160 Do you think it will be fair to say that the Fuhrermuseum was singly 606 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,720 the most important thing that Adolf Hitler wanted to create? 607 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:59,640 Well, Linz, his mother town, and the way it should look as a capital city 608 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,560 was always in the focus of his plans, 609 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:10,480 and in the centre of Linz, as the Fuhrer's city, was the Fuhrermuseum. 610 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:18,000 This extraordinary city would be laid out in a very impressive way 611 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:23,320 which would, of course, all serve to point to their dominance 612 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:29,920 in the world, and also the fact that they were new Roman emperors. 613 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,920 They were emperors of the world. 614 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,760 On May 7th 1945, Germany surrendered and the war in Europe was over. 615 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,760 But as the victorious Allies celebrated, a big question remained. 616 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,160 What had happened to all the cultural property 617 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,040 that the Nazis had stolen? 618 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,240 And so the Monuments Men were given a new task - to find it. 619 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,680 Come the end of the war, the Nazis realised it's not going to end 620 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,160 the way they wanted. 621 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,160 So they're taking these artworks and this gold and these relics, 622 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,560 and putting them in the nearest caves 623 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,760 or the underground railway stations. 624 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,960 Or even as they're retreating through Italy, 625 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,440 they're taking relics and paintings out of museums as they go, 626 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,240 almost desperately. 627 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,560 It's now all about preservation 628 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,760 and saving it to fight for another day. 629 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,480 Towards the end of the war, it was clear that all this art 630 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,320 and all this wealth couldn't stay in Berlin, 631 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:30,720 where it would be discovered. 632 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,080 So it was shipped out of Berlin. 633 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,400 It was shipped out on trucks and buried in salt mines around Germany, 634 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,920 presumably with the intention that either it would be there 635 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,680 to be recovered if the Germans won the war, 636 00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:45,480 or it would be kept away from the Allies if the Germans lost the war. 637 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,640 It's now over 70 years since the end of the Second World War, 638 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,760 and you might think that all hope of recovering these treasures is lost. 639 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,000 But artworks still continue to be found. 640 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,920 In 2011, 641 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,840 a vast collection of artwork worth some £830 million was discovered 642 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,880 in a Munich flat. 643 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,720 This was the home of Cornelius Gurlitt, 644 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,040 the son of Hildebrand Gurlitt, 645 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,120 one of the most important art-dealers of the Third Reich. 646 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,720 80-year-old Cornelius Gurlitt recalls helping his father 647 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,120 save works from wartime Dresden, dismissing suggestions 648 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,400 he might return some of the 1,406 paintings and drawings 649 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,680 to survivors of Nazi persecution. 650 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:41,480 I've arranged to speak with author and journalist Stephan Koldehoff 651 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,320 to find out more about how Gurlitt's collection came to light. 652 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:56,600 So, Stephan, can you tell me what Hildebrand Gurlitt's role was... 653 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,160 ..during the war? 654 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,920 Hildebrand Gurlitt was one of the main art-dealers who was working 655 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,200 for Hitler in two ways. 656 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,400 One way was that in 1937, 1938, 657 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,680 the Nazis would remove many works of art from German museums 658 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:16,080 and they were to be sold. 659 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,240 Not to be destroyed, but to be sold, to raise money for the war. 660 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,840 And Hildebrand Gurlitt was one of the four art-dealers who had to sell 661 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,920 thousands of works of art to art-dealers in foreign countries. 662 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,880 But the second thing was that Hitler was also planning 663 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,680 to found a big museum - 664 00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:37,280 bigger than the Louvre in Paris or any other museum in the world - 665 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,840 and for that, he needed works of art as well. 666 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,440 So when the Nazis invaded countries like France or the Netherlands 667 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,200 or Belgium or Poland, also there, Hildebrand Gurlitt was active 668 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:53,280 to steal or blackmail or also to buy works of art for that planned museum 669 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,360 to be built in Austria. 670 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:03,240 And were all the paintings recovered at the end of the war? 671 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,360 No, there are still very many families, mainly Jewish families, 672 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,440 who are still in search for what once belonged to them. 673 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,680 Many, many works never appeared again, 674 00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:14,600 either on the market or in private collections. 675 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,120 Of course, some of them may have been destroyed during the war 676 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,280 or after the war, having been looted by other people. 677 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,680 But, no, I think at least half of those works have come to light 678 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:28,080 after the war. 679 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:35,480 In 2010, Cornelius Gurlitt was found with 9,000 euros in his wallet. 680 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,840 He wasn't married, he didn't have a pension, he didn't have a job, 681 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,720 so there was a huge tax investigation done. 682 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,720 And they raided his apartment in Munich 683 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,600 and they found something like 1,600 works of art 684 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,080 stored in his apartment, and a lot of them 685 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:51,920 had been stolen by the Nazis 686 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,960 from Jews and from different art foundations around Europe. 687 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,400 Obviously, there's just still so much out there 688 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,160 that has not been returned. 689 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,000 There are presumably hundreds, if not thousands, 690 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:10,680 of private collections that have stolen artworks in them. 691 00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:21,320 And what of all the gold that the Nazis took? 692 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,960 Part of the Nazis' hoard was found in locations 693 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,480 such as the Merkers mine in Germany, 694 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,040 while some of it disappeared into European banks. 695 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,520 But much of it is still missing. 696 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,400 The Monuments Men were immensely successful in financial terms. 697 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,080 In just one example, 698 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,560 the Merkers mine - which is just northwest of Frankfurt - 699 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,960 they found $520 million worth of gold and currency, 700 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,960 which, in today's money, is over $7 billion. 701 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,920 Legend has it that a Nazi train lies buried somewhere, 702 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,560 containing a vast quantity of gold. 703 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,200 Its whereabouts remains one of the greatest questions 704 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:04,320 of the Second World War. 705 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,240 In Poland, a few years ago, 706 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,080 it appeared that it may have been finally found. 707 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,040 It was an event that sparked global interest. 708 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,560 Two men, a German and a Pole, 709 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,560 have set off something of a gold rush in the woods of Poland. 710 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,440 They claim they've discovered a Nazi train loaded with treasures 711 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,200 from the closing days of World War II. 712 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,880 One of the great legends of Nazi gold is the Nazi gold train 713 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:39,400 that was supposedly driven into a Nazi complex in what is now 714 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:40,880 modern-day Poland. 715 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,680 And it's supposed to have an incredible hoard of gold. 716 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:48,280 We do know that the Nazis were moving a lot of gold around 717 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:49,320 at the end of the war, 718 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,400 obviously as they were losing parts of their empire. 719 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,040 And this train was taken into a burrowed-out tunnel 720 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,520 in the Owl Mountains in Poland. 721 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,840 And of course, people have been very keen to find this and other gold 722 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,400 that the Nazis hid towards the end of the war. 723 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,760 Now, in 2016, there were some excavations carried out, 724 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,280 because radar did indicate that there was a train-like object 725 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:13,720 within the mountain. 726 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,160 It was found to be a kind of a geological quirk, 727 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,000 a strange rock formation. 728 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,400 But that said, that doesn't mean it's not there. 729 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,240 And I think it's pretty certain that we're going to turn up 730 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,320 some more Nazi gold, as periodically does turn up. 731 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,640 The Nazi train buried in a hillside in Poland 732 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,080 turned out to be wishful thinking. 733 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:41,280 If it did indeed exist, it is still out there somewhere, 734 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,840 out there with millions of pieces of art 735 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,840 which are yet to be recovered - 736 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:52,560 works by the likes of Raphael, Van Gogh, Rubens and Canaletto... 737 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,040 ..even the Amber Room from Russia, 738 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,840 once dubbed the Eighth Wonder of the World. 739 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,840 The Nazis destroyed a lot. 740 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,960 They used flame-throwers to destroy stuff. 741 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,800 In other words, "If we can't have it, you can't have it back." 742 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,800 There is stuff to be found. 743 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,880 German soldiers would have stolen stuff. 744 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,960 The locals would have probably known where the stuff was in the mines, 745 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,720 and would have taken stuff as well. 746 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:24,040 Even down to Cornelius Gurlitt. They actually found, 747 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,120 in a suitcase that he'd got in a hospital, a Monet. 748 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,040 We have no way of knowing how much is still out there 749 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,760 in private collections. 750 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,240 We have, actually, no way of knowing - if we're very honest - 751 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,400 whether it was the Nazis who took all of the stuff in the first place, 752 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,680 because, you know, as is the way with large armies, 753 00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:47,480 they will tend to pick up the odd thing as they move through, 754 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,360 and so perhaps the Allies have some of it. 755 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,920 The thing is, that the records, such as they are, 756 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,200 probably aren't all the records 757 00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:59,520 or are selective in what they choose to record. 758 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,280 But it's important to appreciate just how successful 759 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,920 the Monuments Men were. 760 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,160 During and beyond the war, they tracked, located and returned 761 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,560 more than five million artistic and cultural items 762 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,560 stolen by Hitler and the Nazis. 763 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,800 Their role in preserving cultural treasures 764 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,360 is without precedent. 765 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,120 The story of Nazi art and Nazi loot is by no means over. 766 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,640 There's an immense amount that still hasn't yet been recovered, 767 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,640 either secreted in places one simply doesn't know where, 768 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,720 or still lost in the financial system. 769 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,840 It's really difficult to say how much of the Nazi loot - 770 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,120 the treasures, the gold, the relics - has been reclaimed 771 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:53,920 and how much of it remains. 772 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,360 Now, say 50% has been recovered. 773 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,520 That means some of the most incredible works of art, 774 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,640 some of the most incredible hoards of gold and silver 775 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,240 and some of the, arguably, potentially greatest relics 776 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,480 of antiquity are lying there in a cave somewhere, 777 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,840 sitting in a no longer used rail station 778 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,200 or high up in a mountain somewhere. 779 00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:17,520 I think, over time, 780 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,200 we'll find some of this, but just how much is there and what's there? 781 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:22,640 That remains a mystery. 782 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,800 Nazi Germany's legacy can be seen in the scars on the landscape, 783 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,040 the graveyards scattered in every city, town and village in the world, 784 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:39,880 and perhaps, I guess more subtly, 785 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,360 in the gaps in the art galleries of Europe, 786 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,640 where once hung the greatest paintings in history. 787 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,080 The theft of art was a cultural crime 788 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,400 the likes the world had never seen, 789 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,160 but hopefully, more and more will be recovered 790 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,280 so that generations can enjoy them once again. 791 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,320 I'll see you next time. 792 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,680 Subtitles by Red Bee Media 65071

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