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We get a lot of stuff in the mail.
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We have a post office box that’s dedicated just to the museum.
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We'll get a dozen packages there a week.
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It's a lot of stuff that you might think
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is typically haunted.
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There's a lot of dolls.
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There's a lot of porcelain clowns.
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Nine times out of ten, the things that people send us
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don't ever do anything strange for us.
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That's not to say that I don't believe
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someone when they say they think something's haunted.
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I think that our interaction with these things is a big part
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of why they're haunted.
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So when we sever that connection between the person who has the claim,
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they just don't do the same thing.
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At least not for us.
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Nine times out of ten,
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we don’t experience anything.
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But that last 10% is where things get really interesting,
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and occasionally there's 1%
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that changes the way that we think
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about haunted objects.
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A majority of the objects in the museum
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have been donated,
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and a lot of them come to us
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from clients or people that we've worked with
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or people who really want to stay anonymous
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and they just have something that they want to get rid of
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and they feel as if there's something attached to them
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that they're frightened of.
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I really think that
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when we talk about haunted objects,
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a lot of the time what we're talking about is maybe someone's trauma,
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someone's trauma that they're associating very strongly with an object itself.
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And so oftentimes what happens is when we become
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caretakers of that object, when it's not in their possession anymore,
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it severs that connection, that trauma connection,
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they're able to compartmentalize that fear into the object itself.
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And the second it's not in their presence,
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the second that it's not in their home or they're seeing it every day,
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it gives them almost emotional space to start to let go
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of whatever it is that is either creating the fear or whatever it is
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that’s coming from their... Even if it's just their subconscious mind.
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It gives them space to start letting some of that go.
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Doing this professionally was not something
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that I planned on ever doing, really fell into it.
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Everything that I know about ghosts, I learned by accident, trial and error.
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My friends and I, we went ghost hunting for fun when we were kids.
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I think we formed our first ghost hunting team when we were 12 years old,
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and it was really just a way of going into abandoned houses
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in the middle of the night, sneaking out, and trying to get scared.
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Greg's initial experiences with
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the paranormal were really from a place of wanting to have adventures
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and wanting to go out and get scared and have fun.
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Initially, we ran rival ghost hunting teams
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and he and his friends were out investigating creepy
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cemeteries and me and my friends were out investigating creepy cemeteries.
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And we found each other and we found that we had some synergy
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and that we were some of the only people at the time investigating the paranormal
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that way.
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And it became something that we bonded over, was this sense
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that like what we were doing was fun, but also scary, but also interesting.
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And we were willing to do the work and we were willing to do the research,
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but we also weren't really willing to take ourselves too seriously.
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And so that was what initially bonded us together.
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I always had a crush on Dana,
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even when I was a kid,
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but she kind of scared me a little bit
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because she was a witch.
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I've been a practicing witch since I was 16,
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and so a majority of my life has really been as someone
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who utilizes energies and works with with different types of magics.
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So it feels like it lends itself perfectly to what we do with the museum.
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And it's really become an asset to a lot of the things that we do
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with these objects, specifically.
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I was raised in a very religious household.
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I was supposed to be a Baptist minister.
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So a 14, 15 year old kid
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who has this crush on this dangerous witch...
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Yeah, she was a little scary to me, to be honest.
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When you're a kid, the idea
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of what a witch is very scary, particularly if you're religious.
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Most paranormal media, whether it's television, film, books, they typically
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depict witches in the paranormal space as a negative thing.
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For centuries, there has been a campaign
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to make witchcraft seem evil.
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There’s ulterior motives to make witchcraft seem
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as if it’s an evil thing.
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Even in the world that we live in today,
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considering that witchcraft is so popular,
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And is something that is on the rise as a spiritual practice,
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there are still loads of people who
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make it their job to
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change the way that people think about it,
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to see it as something that’s evil,
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when it really isn’t.
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It’s really a beautiful,
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in most cases, private spiritual practice
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of magical people who connect with the earth,
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and connect with the energies,
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connect with their ancestry,
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and connect with the magic that is around us all the time.
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So because what we’re going to be doing
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is drawing this energy towards us,
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what I will do is...
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I’m going to take a little dab
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of my solar oil...
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And I’m going to be using my dominant hand...
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Dana is also a teacher.
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She does workshops on witchcraft all across the country
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all year long.
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Our receptive hand is the energy that we’re taking into us,
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so I’m going to be using my dominant hand.
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And if you’re curious about this, we’ve talked about this
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in many previous classes
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so maybe go back and check the master list.
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She also has a digital coven, essentially,
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of hundreds of different witches of all proficiency levels.
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And Dana teaches them practical magic, hands on magic.
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And in that way, a lot of her knowledge filters out
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into the paranormal community.
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So between her and I, we cover a lot of ground that I think
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is often missing in a lot of paranormal cases.
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Back in January of 2016,
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there was a post to the paranormal subreddit by a user who
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used a throwaway account to tell the story of how he and one of his friends
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found a strange effigy in the forest
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in the Catskill Mountains.
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They did what you're never supposed to do, and they took the effigy home with them.
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My friend showed up here at like 11:30.
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He's out-of-his-mind-scared.
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I've never seen him like this before.
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Long story short, he's sleeping over because something is in his house.
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We found the statue on Sunday, and I told him
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not to take it because it gave me bad vibes.
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But he took it anyway.
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He's been an atheist for as long as I've known him.
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So when he told me that something was going on,
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I thought he was just fucking with me because he knows
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I like to watch paranormal shows and he's always made fun of me for it.
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Now he says he can't sleep at night
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because banging keeps waking him up.
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By Wednesday, he started waking up in the middle of the night
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feeling like something or someone was watching him.
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This kept happening.
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Every time I'd wake up, he would smell a really strong scent like pond water.
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He doesn't believe in any of this stuff, so he just ignored it until a few days ago
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when the statue moved from his desk into his living room.
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He says that every night since Thursday, it's moved into a different room
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than where he left it.
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He thought it was his dog moving it around because it smelled funny,
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but his dog won’t go anywhere near it.
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He says that she's actually peed
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in the house three nights in a row and she's never done that before.
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Then last night,
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someone knocked on his door at three in the morning.
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When he went to open it
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there was no one there.
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He said that as he opened up the door to look outside,
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he knew that he made a big mistake.
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Like he just felt like he shouldn't have opened his door.
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At that point,
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I didn't have any reason not to believe him
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because it had gone way beyond a joke, and he actually sounded really,
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really fucking scared on the phone.
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He stayed up all night
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and then decided to go to the movies to take his mind off it.
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When he got home, he said it felt like everything was fine
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and he decided to finally go to bed.
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This is where it gets super fucked up.
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He says that when he woke up, which wasn't until like ten,
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it was because his dog was barking like crazy.
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And when he went out into his hallway, he saw all these muddy footprints.
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Not like shoe prints, but like, barefoot.
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Sitting in the living room
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was the fucking statue
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which had moved again.
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And he says that when he started to go near it,
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he heard someone breathing that sounded like his grandpa
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with a tracheotomy.
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He peaced the fuck out
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and now he and his dog are sleeping in my guest room.
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I've never seen him this scared.
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He even started crying.
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I have no fucking idea what to do.
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I believe him because he has no reason to lie to me about this
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because it's gone way too far to be a joke now.
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I know that everyone says not to burn it or whatever.
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So what the fuck do we do?
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They posted to the subreddit
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and said, “listen, this is what we did.
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We're really freaked out.
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We don't want to go back to the place where we found this thing.
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We're afraid of meeting who put it there.
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What do we do?”
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Eventually I got called to the thread because someone that we had just shot
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a television show with had listened to Dana and my stories
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for like two weeks on the road and told them, You should get in touch
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with Greg and Dana. They deal with these types of objects.
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They could help you.
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I tried to give a really detailed response.
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Hey, I get it.
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Here's what I would do if I was in your situation.
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It's really important for Dana and I to never come across
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as the people who will solve your problem for you.
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It's very important for us to give
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someone the tools to solve their own problems.
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That said, sometimes
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people just seem like they're incapable of dealing with it.
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And in those situations, we're happy.
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We're happy to help.
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After responding to the initial thread, we private message back and forth
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a few times and I gave him some advice on
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what I would do in his situation.
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Mainly just: take it back, talk to it, just address
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that you made a mistake and say you're going to take it back to the cave.
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It wasn't too long after that that he messaged saying
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that everything had really escalated pretty badly.
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Hey, Greg.
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Thanks for the advice.
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Today we went back to my friend's house to get the statue and return it.
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When we got there,
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his dog wouldn't even come in the house.
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I saw the muddy footprints
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and the whole place smelled like a dog that had just rolled around in the dirt.
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He went to show me where the statue was when he left last night,
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but it was gone.
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When he found it, it was in his hallway
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and there was a big crack in the wall like it had been thrown there.
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He swears that he never touched the thing
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and left it in its living room.
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We told it that we were sorry about taking it
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and that we wanted to take it back to the cave and asked it what we should do.
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I don't know if it was the feeling you were talking about,
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but we both just felt like we should never go back to that cave again.
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He said he felt like we needed to send it to you.
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When we were standing in the hallway talking this thing,
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his dog started barking like crazy outside.
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We both thought we saw a woman in the dark corner of his living room.
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She was totally naked,
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really old, and dripping water.
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And her...
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Her eyes sort of glowed in the dark.
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We both freaked the fuck out and ran outside.
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Whoever it was wasn't there when we went back in.
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We grabbed the statue, apologized again,
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wrapped it in a pillowcase and put it in a box.
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He's just going to send it to you.
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Give me your address and
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we’ll mail it to you tomorrow.
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It was maybe a week or two later.
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A box showed up, and in it was this effigy
253
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,990
wrapped in an old pillowcase.
254
00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:01,370
And when we rolled it out, we could see that it was this...
255
00:17:01,870 --> 00:17:04,250
I mean, it was obviously a handmade item
256
00:17:04,580 --> 00:17:08,340
and it had nails nailed into the eyes
257
00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:10,920
and a noose strung around its neck.
258
00:17:15,630 --> 00:17:18,890
And my first instinct when I looked at her
259
00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:22,850
was that it felt obviously, it felt very symbolic.
260
00:17:22,850 --> 00:17:28,480
There were very symbolic and intentional symbolism attached to the object itself.
261
00:17:28,860 --> 00:17:33,690
So the nails in the eyes, my first thought was, is this to blind someone?
262
00:17:33,690 --> 00:17:38,070
Or to cause someone not to see something specifically? The noose around the neck,
263
00:17:38,370 --> 00:17:41,120
my first thought was, is this the silence someone?
264
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,950
Is it to keep someone from speaking?
265
00:17:44,250 --> 00:17:45,830
Is it to actually kill someone?
266
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:48,540
Is it to control their energy?
267
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,750
And those two things were as far as magic goes,
268
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:54,420
they were so obviously symbolic.
269
00:17:55,470 --> 00:17:57,970
One of the things that always baffled us about the Crone
270
00:17:57,970 --> 00:18:00,010
is that her hands are to her sides.
271
00:18:00,470 --> 00:18:03,600
And it looks as if the wood has been split away
272
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,350
between her hands.
273
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:07,230
Like something had been torn away.
274
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,650
And we always wondered what that might have been.
275
00:18:13,610 --> 00:18:15,690
We named it after the crone archetype.
276
00:18:16,030 --> 00:18:17,990
The two hikers had seen
277
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:21,240
an old woman standing in their home.
278
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,080
And the Crone is an old woman,
279
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,460
sometimes seen as a witch.
280
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,880
So we thought that would be the perfect name
281
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,880
for something that people were seeing.
282
00:18:32,170 --> 00:18:34,710
That sort of archeytpal spirit.
283
00:18:38,590 --> 00:18:41,300
We did with it what we do with every object that arrives.
284
00:18:41,550 --> 00:18:44,390
We sit it down and we take photos of it from every angle.
285
00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:46,680
Then that's really it.
286
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,060
We just sort of go on about our day because like I said,
287
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,480
nine times out of ten, the stuff that people send us never acts up for us.
288
00:18:54,780 --> 00:18:59,450
We just make room for it in the collection and if it does something strange,
289
00:18:59,820 --> 00:19:01,280
that's when we'll start to study it.
290
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,370
Later that night we were in the living room.
291
00:19:04,370 --> 00:19:09,500
We were watching television and we heard a loud bang
292
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,080
in the office.
293
00:19:14,710 --> 00:19:16,670
I didn't think it was anything paranormal.
294
00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:18,090
I thought it was our cats.
295
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,100
So I get up and I walk in, realize the office door is closed.
296
00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:24,680
Cats couldn't be in there.
297
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,520
So I went in the bedroom.
298
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,730
The cats are hiding under our bed, scared out of their minds.
299
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,860
Another thing about having pets is they're typically
300
00:19:34,860 --> 00:19:37,610
a really great early warning sign that something
301
00:19:38,860 --> 00:19:40,610
ghostly is happening.
302
00:19:41,910 --> 00:19:46,160
I walked into the office, didn't see anything out of the ordinary
303
00:19:46,740 --> 00:19:49,330
until I almost stepped on Jesus.
304
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,640
I look up and there's a crucifix hanging on the wall
305
00:20:05,390 --> 00:20:07,640
and Jesus has been cracked
306
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,600
right off of the crucifix.
307
00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:15,980
This crucifix only hung on the wall with a single nail.
308
00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:21,110
So whatever did that had to have held it on
309
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:22,530
and pulled it off.
310
00:20:25,450 --> 00:20:27,700
Both of the nails were missing off the crucifix,
311
00:20:28,490 --> 00:20:31,750
except for the one that held the hand.
312
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,000
And I looked right beneath it.
313
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:37,500
And there was the Crone.
314
00:20:45,930 --> 00:20:48,260
That was the first indication that maybe there was
315
00:20:48,260 --> 00:20:49,890
something strange happening.
316
00:20:57,610 --> 00:21:01,150
I mean, finding a desecrated crucifix is definitely
317
00:21:01,150 --> 00:21:04,320
a frightening thing, I think, regardless of whether you're religious or not.
318
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,660
There's obviously an intention there.
319
00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:09,530
Religious iconography of any kind being desecrated
320
00:21:09,530 --> 00:21:11,910
is not really a thing that you want to see at all.
321
00:21:12,580 --> 00:21:15,170
It almost made me feel like I had
322
00:21:15,170 --> 00:21:18,250
to be 100% business with this object.
323
00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:20,250
A lot of people want to
324
00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:23,420
jump to that being a sign of evil,
325
00:21:24,050 --> 00:21:27,510
but I think more importantly, it's a sign of anger.
326
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:31,100
And for some reason that symbol made it angry.
327
00:21:34,020 --> 00:21:37,810
When we thought that something stranger than usual was happening.
328
00:21:38,060 --> 00:21:38,690
I said to Dana,
329
00:21:38,690 --> 00:21:41,940
“ We've got this trail cam we usually use for Bigfoot hunting.
330
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,240
Let's put it in the room.
331
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,490
And if something is moving in there, we'll catch it.”
332
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:50,030
Nothing happened right away.
333
00:21:50,030 --> 00:21:53,660
But one night between the hours of three and four in the morning,
334
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,750
the trail camera triggered three times.
335
00:21:59,790 --> 00:22:02,340
One of them had something up in the corner.
336
00:22:02,550 --> 00:22:04,550
We could easily write that off as a bug.
337
00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:08,140
There was another one that had a weird globule in it.
338
00:22:10,550 --> 00:22:13,350
We are not orb people. Those things never excite us.
339
00:22:13,350 --> 00:22:15,480
They're typically some kind of a lens artifact.
340
00:22:15,810 --> 00:22:19,520
But when you look closer at the image, whatever this thing is,
341
00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:22,190
is actually giving off some kind of a light source.
342
00:22:23,020 --> 00:22:26,030
You look at one of the frames in the corner of the shots
343
00:22:26,030 --> 00:22:28,990
and you can actually see it lit up only in that image.
344
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:30,620
So whatever that thing is
345
00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:33,740
that's floating through the frame is actually giving off light.
346
00:22:34,330 --> 00:22:37,370
But my initial response was, I think maybe looking to see where
347
00:22:37,370 --> 00:22:38,750
that light anomaly was moving from,
348
00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:41,290
because if it was a bug or something like that,
349
00:22:41,290 --> 00:22:44,170
we might be able to follow the motion in which it was moving.
350
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:47,970
When she did that, we noticed something we hadn't noticed before.
351
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,760
If you look down in the corner where the carving is,
352
00:22:52,220 --> 00:22:54,310
it moves ever so slightly.
353
00:23:02,110 --> 00:23:04,480
Nothing else in the frame moves.
354
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,230
There were things that were sitting on the table
355
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:07,820
that were much lighter than it.
356
00:23:07,820 --> 00:23:09,780
Things that would move much easier than it.
357
00:23:10,990 --> 00:23:14,450
We tried to rationalize how maybe a truck had driven by
358
00:23:14,450 --> 00:23:17,040
or something, but that would have moved everything.
359
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,790
That was big.
360
00:23:21,420 --> 00:23:26,170
That's something that is so rarely captured by paranormal investigators
361
00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:29,720
that we knew this might require
362
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,090
a lot more investigation.
363
00:23:40,020 --> 00:23:42,150
One night, things got really unnerving.
364
00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:47,860
It was very early in the morning.
365
00:23:47,860 --> 00:23:49,610
I'd been asleep.
366
00:23:49,950 --> 00:23:53,280
Dana shakes me awake pretty violently.
367
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,370
And...
368
00:23:55,620 --> 00:23:58,290
I turn and I look at her, and I'm really groggy.
369
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:01,040
And I can tell that she's really scared.
370
00:24:04,460 --> 00:24:06,960
It takes her a second to actually tell me
371
00:24:07,460 --> 00:24:08,760
what had happened.
372
00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:04,390
The way that it moved, the way that it felt.
373
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:06,350
It was like a living nightmare.
374
00:25:06,350 --> 00:25:06,940
Like it felt.
375
00:25:06,940 --> 00:25:09,260
I felt like I was literally looking at a living nightmare.
376
00:25:10,940 --> 00:25:13,610
I didn't see it, but I believe her
377
00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:16,320
because I’ve very rarely seen her this scared.
378
00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:21,660
That's when she
379
00:25:21,660 --> 00:25:24,290
really started to believe that there was something
380
00:25:26,290 --> 00:25:27,540
that...
381
00:25:28,130 --> 00:25:29,880
had come into the house.
382
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,690
I'm sitting in the office doing some work,
383
00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:51,360
and Dana calls me and I can already hear that
384
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:52,900
she sounds very unsure.
385
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,070
She says,
386
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,370
Were you standing on the couch tonight?
387
00:26:00,780 --> 00:26:02,160
I said, No.
388
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,330
She goes, You didn't like get out of the shower
389
00:26:05,330 --> 00:26:08,330
and stand on the couch and change one of the light bulbs or something?
390
00:26:09,290 --> 00:26:11,840
And I just laughed because it just sounded ridiculous.
391
00:26:12,420 --> 00:26:14,170
And she said, Come here right now.
392
00:26:16,090 --> 00:26:18,130
And we both kind of stood there in the living room
393
00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:22,010
staring at these two footprints on the back of the couch, staring at the wall.
394
00:26:22,010 --> 00:26:24,140
And there was nothing leading up to them.
395
00:26:24,140 --> 00:26:24,770
They were just...
396
00:26:24,770 --> 00:26:27,850
It was as if they had just manifested there on the back of the couch.
397
00:26:31,650 --> 00:26:33,980
At this point, there were way too many things to ignore.
398
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:37,950
So many things were lining up with the story that had been posted on Reddit.
399
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,080
We realized that we needed to take our own advice
400
00:26:42,330 --> 00:26:43,830
and address this thing.
401
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:53,460
So I went into the office and I grabbed the carving
402
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:56,970
and I brought it into the living room and I set it down
403
00:26:56,970 --> 00:26:58,220
on the coffee table.
404
00:27:00,140 --> 00:27:01,550
And we had a talk with it.
405
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,560
And we just say, Listen,
406
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,600
we're happy to share our space with you.
407
00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:08,810
This is something that we like to do.
408
00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,810
If there's help that you need, we're happy to try and help you get it.
409
00:27:13,310 --> 00:27:17,650
But you need to understand this is a coexistence.
410
00:27:17,650 --> 00:27:20,360
We have to live with each other.
411
00:27:21,530 --> 00:27:23,580
And as we're having this conversation,
412
00:27:24,740 --> 00:27:25,290
we both
413
00:27:25,290 --> 00:27:28,370
hear the sound of rushing water coming from the opposite side
414
00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:29,660
of the house.
415
00:27:34,130 --> 00:27:36,710
The last apartment that we lived in, we'd had a burst pipe.
416
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,010
It's not fun to go through.
417
00:27:40,010 --> 00:27:41,970
I thought, no, not again.
418
00:27:43,010 --> 00:27:45,680
We get up, we run to the other side of the house,
419
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,390
hoping to stop whatever it is that's happening.
420
00:27:51,350 --> 00:27:52,350
But nothing’s there.
421
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,610
And as we're standing there, confused, trying to figure out what's going on,
422
00:27:55,940 --> 00:27:58,530
we hear a series of loud thumps
423
00:28:00,490 --> 00:28:02,160
in the living room.
424
00:28:09,950 --> 00:28:11,710
We walk back in the living room
425
00:28:12,290 --> 00:28:13,540
and the Crone is gone.
426
00:28:15,630 --> 00:28:19,670
It was sitting right on the coffee table and now has vanished.
427
00:28:21,630 --> 00:28:23,970
We're looking all over for it.
428
00:28:23,970 --> 00:28:27,560
And eventually I see it underneath the television stand.
429
00:28:29,140 --> 00:28:31,980
I get down on my hands and knees and I reach under
430
00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:35,230
the television stand and I hear Dana absolutely shriek
431
00:28:36,060 --> 00:28:40,610
because the television has started to tip down on to my head.
432
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:46,550
If it wasn't for Dana, it would have smashed right into my head.
433
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:52,620
This was so upsetting to me that I said something I never like to say.
434
00:28:53,210 --> 00:28:57,170
I said, if this is how it's going to be, I'm going to put you in a box.
435
00:28:57,170 --> 00:29:00,130
I'm going to put a lock on it, and I'm going to stick you on a shelf.
436
00:29:00,420 --> 00:29:01,840
After I'd said this,
437
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,970
we heard three loud bangs on the kitchen wall.
438
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,220
And I just took that as... okay, this is how it's going to be.
439
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:14,940
So I pulled the box out.
440
00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:18,480
I put it back in the pillowcase, wrapped it up, put it in the box,
441
00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:19,770
slammed the lid shut,
442
00:29:19,770 --> 00:29:20,650
put the lock on it,
443
00:29:20,650 --> 00:29:22,070
and stuck it on a shelf.
444
00:29:23,530 --> 00:29:26,950
And that's where it stayed until we would go out on the road.
445
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,500
The final straw with the Crone
446
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:34,460
happened at Michigan Paracon.
447
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,170
This is the 8th annual Michigan Paranormal Convention.
448
00:29:38,170 --> 00:29:41,710
It’s being held at the Kewadin Casinos in Sault Ste. Marie this weekend,
449
00:29:41,710 --> 00:29:44,720
and it’s brought some of the biggest names in the industry to the U.P.
450
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,510
There’s also the Traveling Museum of the Paranormal and the Occult.
451
00:29:48,510 --> 00:29:52,020
We travel from coast to coast and bring haunted objects to people.
452
00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:55,270
We let them hold them, touch them, experience them for themselves.
453
00:29:55,270 --> 00:29:57,940
The idea is to just give people a paranormal experience.
454
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:01,150
Michigan Paracon is an event we always look forward to every year.
455
00:30:01,150 --> 00:30:04,030
It's one of the biggest paranormal conferences in the country.
456
00:30:04,690 --> 00:30:08,280
And at this event specifically, a man had come to the event
457
00:30:08,740 --> 00:30:10,700
and he really, really wanted to see the Crone.
458
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:12,830
He came back multiple times throughout the day
459
00:30:12,830 --> 00:30:14,160
and asked if he could see her.
460
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:15,910
And we himmed and hawed about it
461
00:30:16,250 --> 00:30:20,460
And finally we said, okay, we'll pull it out just for a second.
462
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,460
And, seconds...
463
00:30:24,460 --> 00:30:26,340
after I pulled it out of the pillowcase,
464
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:27,510
all hell broke loose.
465
00:30:31,010 --> 00:30:34,220
The minute that the Crone came out, it was like a force
466
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,560
shot down the aisle.
467
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,270
The presenter that was across from us,
468
00:30:42,820 --> 00:30:45,900
her bottle of soda
469
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:49,530
just popped and sprayed all over her books.
470
00:30:49,530 --> 00:30:51,620
Just destroyed hundreds of dollars worth of books.
471
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,330
She was screaming.
472
00:30:54,740 --> 00:30:56,540
We then noticed that the lights
473
00:30:56,540 --> 00:31:00,080
that are going down the vendor hall are swinging,
474
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:03,500
The lights are literally swinging directly over top of everyone.
475
00:31:05,550 --> 00:31:07,300
There's people all the way up,
476
00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:08,840
all the different presenters down the row
477
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,100
are looking all over the place because they know something's going on.
478
00:31:12,510 --> 00:31:16,020
And then all of a sudden I see further down the aisle
479
00:31:16,220 --> 00:31:18,850
on the right hand side, there's a man
480
00:31:19,270 --> 00:31:21,150
who has his head
481
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:24,190
slunk back in his chair
482
00:31:24,610 --> 00:31:27,860
and I see blood start to drip down his neck.
483
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,160
And he has a really violent seizure.
484
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,540
All of this happened in the matter
485
00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:42,080
of 15, 20 seconds.
486
00:31:43,750 --> 00:31:45,670
I'm taking it all in,
487
00:31:45,670 --> 00:31:47,550
standing there holding this thing.
488
00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:52,220
And the guy who had asked us to see it
489
00:31:52,220 --> 00:31:54,180
basically starts to weep,
490
00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:55,640
and says, I'm sorry.
491
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,390
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
492
00:31:57,390 --> 00:31:59,100
Put it away.
493
00:31:59,390 --> 00:32:01,020
I slammed it back in the box.
494
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,860
And I looked at Dana and I said, We can never do this again.
495
00:32:04,270 --> 00:32:06,230
This cannot come with us anymore.
496
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:07,860
We need to do something about this.
497
00:32:09,530 --> 00:32:11,700
And it was when the plan first started
498
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:15,580
and we started talking about the idea of figuring out a way to bring her back
499
00:32:15,580 --> 00:32:17,910
potentially to the place where she came from.
500
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,140
We're a museum.
501
00:32:36,140 --> 00:32:40,180
We are all about preserving these things.
502
00:32:40,180 --> 00:32:44,770
We're living in a time where it's much easier to preserve stuff than ever before.
503
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:48,270
You can even preserve something by 3D scanning it.
504
00:32:48,570 --> 00:32:52,320
And then the original can cease to exist, but people can still study it.
505
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,820
They can see every detail of it.
506
00:32:54,820 --> 00:32:56,990
We’re going to take a haunted object.
507
00:32:56,990 --> 00:32:59,240
We’re going to 3D scan it.
508
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,200
And then we’re going to 3D print it.
509
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,500
This is a first. This has never been done.
510
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:05,000
I’ve never heard of this being done.
511
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,920
This is a completely uncharted territory. It’s a new horizon.
512
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,010
And I’m really excited about the possibilities.
513
00:33:11,010 --> 00:33:13,590
Our friend Jason Gowin was our 3D scanning technician.
514
00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:16,140
He had all the equipment that we needed.
515
00:33:16,140 --> 00:33:18,470
He had a powerful enough computer to run the software
516
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,470
and he'd already scanned dozens of our different artifacts.
517
00:33:21,470 --> 00:33:23,520
So he was the perfect person for this project.
518
00:33:24,890 --> 00:33:26,480
My name is Jason Gowin.
519
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,070
I have been a paranormal adventurer slash investigator since
520
00:33:32,110 --> 00:33:34,030
forever? Like 1998
521
00:33:34,030 --> 00:33:36,910
I guess was when I officially started doing all of this.
522
00:33:36,910 --> 00:33:38,910
Jason is one of my oldest friends.
523
00:33:38,910 --> 00:33:42,200
We were on the same ghost hunting team when I was like, 13 years old.
524
00:33:42,790 --> 00:33:46,580
If there’s something here, tell us your name.
525
00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:49,710
If you’d like us to leave, give us some sort of a sign.
526
00:33:50,420 --> 00:33:53,170
He was the wheel man, because he was a little older than us.
527
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,510
You know, I’ll give you credit, Greg.
528
00:33:55,510 --> 00:33:58,010
You were the first... You were the first of us.
529
00:33:58,010 --> 00:34:00,600
When Greg decided to play a prank on one of our friends,
530
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,390
he asked me to go full “Blair Witch”
531
00:34:03,390 --> 00:34:08,770
and hide in a cemetery and scare the living bejesus out of the kid
532
00:34:08,770 --> 00:34:12,070
with as much “Blair-Witchy” stuff as I could possibly muster
533
00:34:12,070 --> 00:34:13,480
and we did it.
534
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,490
Yeah! Because we were trying to terrify you!
535
00:34:15,490 --> 00:34:17,570
Yeah. And you fuckin’ did.
536
00:34:17,570 --> 00:34:21,030
And we had so much fun that we started checking out legends for real.
537
00:34:21,700 --> 00:34:22,990
Get down! Get down!
538
00:34:24,450 --> 00:34:28,170
I happened to notice that Greg had put out a thing
539
00:34:28,170 --> 00:34:30,210
that he was looking for someone with a 3D scanner.
540
00:34:30,210 --> 00:34:33,800
And so he kind of told me a little bit about what he wanted to do
541
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,470
with scanning the objects and making recreations of all of them.
542
00:34:37,470 --> 00:34:40,090
Is it a responsible thing to do? Who knows!
543
00:34:40,090 --> 00:34:42,220
Because I have no idea what’s going to happen.
544
00:34:42,220 --> 00:34:44,020
And I was really interested
545
00:34:44,020 --> 00:34:47,520
I’d been looking for a new paranormal adventure to have and...
546
00:34:48,270 --> 00:34:50,350
I got what I asked for.
547
00:34:50,350 --> 00:34:53,150
They have their own little souls and personalities
548
00:34:53,690 --> 00:34:55,400
and we’re about to make them digital.
549
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,490
And then tangible again.
550
00:35:00,660 --> 00:35:01,120
Obviously,
551
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,370
we have some big news to share, but we'll wait until
552
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,040
we’ve gotten this thing spread out on all the channels.
553
00:35:08,460 --> 00:35:10,670
Before we started our museum membership program,
554
00:35:10,670 --> 00:35:14,130
we used to host pretty regular public live streams
555
00:35:14,130 --> 00:35:18,090
and during these live streams we would talk about different items in the collection.
556
00:35:18,340 --> 00:35:20,510
Sometimes we'd do experiments with them,
557
00:35:21,180 --> 00:35:25,600
but we held a special live stream in 2017
558
00:35:25,890 --> 00:35:29,940
where we were announcing the launch of our museum membership program.
559
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,940
During this live stream, we were discussing the Crone
560
00:35:33,310 --> 00:35:35,820
and Jason is in the comments.
561
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,820
...and we’ve made a lot of breakthroughs with the box
562
00:35:38,820 --> 00:35:42,530
since we last chatted, I think we’re really onto something...
563
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:44,240
Dana and I saw it
564
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:48,000
and we were horrified because that's not the kind of joke
565
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,670
that you make to something as scary as the Crone was.
566
00:35:53,710 --> 00:35:56,550
It seems that ghosts don't have a great sense of humor.
567
00:35:56,550 --> 00:35:58,130
They seem to be very literal.
568
00:35:58,130 --> 00:36:00,970
And I continued to watch your live feed.
569
00:36:00,970 --> 00:36:04,680
And all of a sudden I heard this boom-boom-boom-boom-boom
570
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,680
walking around in our upstairs.
571
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,940
And I looked and could see Lyla, our cat, was laying down.
572
00:36:18,150 --> 00:36:21,990
And so I was like, okay, I'm going to have to investigate what that is.
573
00:36:22,410 --> 00:36:26,870
I got up, I started to walk across the kitchen floor and I stepped in wet.
574
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:32,290
And that's when the light caught one of the shapes.
575
00:36:32,290 --> 00:36:34,630
And I'm like, That's a footprint.
576
00:36:36,250 --> 00:36:38,920
I followed the water to the door.
577
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,510
The door was open.
578
00:36:40,510 --> 00:36:42,760
And we had shut and locked it.
579
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,220
The porch light was on, it shouldn’t have been.
580
00:36:45,220 --> 00:36:47,720
But there were no tracks in the snow.
581
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:50,770
But then I noticed it went back and
582
00:36:50,770 --> 00:36:52,560
back towards our bedroom.
583
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,690
And then I called you immediately.
584
00:36:56,690 --> 00:36:58,520
And you guys were like,
585
00:36:58,520 --> 00:36:59,280
The Crone!
586
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,610
I know it was Dana that said, Did you go upstairs?
587
00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:04,450
And I hadn't even thought of that because Jace wasn't home.
588
00:37:04,450 --> 00:37:06,450
So I had no reason to even check.
589
00:37:09,290 --> 00:37:10,290
And we followed the footprints,
590
00:37:10,290 --> 00:37:12,790
which then went up our stairs, which are carpeted,
591
00:37:13,290 --> 00:37:14,620
up around the hallway,
592
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,170
and they went right towards his door, which had been shut,
593
00:37:18,750 --> 00:37:19,960
and...
594
00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:21,340
it was open.
595
00:37:21,380 --> 00:37:23,380
So we went in,
596
00:37:24,380 --> 00:37:25,380
turned on the lights,
597
00:37:26,010 --> 00:37:29,390
and the footprint stopped and left a giant puddle
598
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:31,970
directly in front of his crib.
599
00:37:32,730 --> 00:37:35,350
“Tille Boom”
600
00:37:56,170 --> 00:37:57,830
Fortunately for him,
601
00:37:57,830 --> 00:38:01,000
his baby was at his mother-in-law’s house that night.
602
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,300
But it was enough to freak him out,
603
00:38:04,260 --> 00:38:06,260
and he realized he'd done something
604
00:38:06,260 --> 00:38:07,430
he shouldn't have done.
605
00:38:10,010 --> 00:38:12,220
And he asked Dana,
606
00:38:12,220 --> 00:38:14,520
give me whatever you can to help me with this.
607
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,140
What do I do? What do I do?
608
00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:20,150
So Dana sent him a package full of all kinds of different stuff,
609
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,690
some things that he could burn, some rituals that he could do
610
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:27,280
in order to seal his house back up.
611
00:38:28,740 --> 00:38:32,740
And from that point on, he was absolutely terrified
612
00:38:32,740 --> 00:38:34,080
of the Crone.
613
00:38:42,250 --> 00:38:45,340
We knew that we were going to take the Crone back
614
00:38:45,590 --> 00:38:46,880
to where it had been taken from.
615
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,100
And so it was important for us to get a 3D scan of her before we did.
616
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:54,970
So we planned a live stream on Halloween night.
617
00:38:55,770 --> 00:38:57,890
And Jason, of course,
618
00:38:57,890 --> 00:39:00,190
refused to do it at his house.
619
00:39:01,980 --> 00:39:03,480
Happy Halloween, everybody.
620
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:11,160
We are in a secure location, in a hotel room,
621
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:14,030
here in Sayre, Pennsylvania.
622
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,200
I don't think any of us could have anticipated that
623
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,920
that would be the night that everything came together with the Crone.
624
00:39:21,170 --> 00:39:23,960
We made every decision about
625
00:39:24,130 --> 00:39:26,890
what we were going to do with her and how we were going to return her
626
00:39:27,050 --> 00:39:29,470
based on what happened during that live stream.
627
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,470
What are you going to be doing tonight? What are you going to be trying?
628
00:39:33,470 --> 00:39:34,850
The Estes Method.
629
00:39:34,850 --> 00:39:36,810
I like to describe the Estes Method
630
00:39:36,810 --> 00:39:39,100
as a form of technologically-assisted mediumship.
631
00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:42,100
It is a really interesting
632
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:44,940
technique that makes use of an SB-7 spirit box,
633
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:47,990
a really traditional tool in a Ghost Hunter’s toolkit.
634
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,650
It's really nothing more than
635
00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:54,950
a radio that has a sweep function, so it just scans through
636
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:58,750
AM or FM radio stations at a fast rate of speed
637
00:39:58,750 --> 00:40:02,670
and a lot of paranormal investigators like to believe
638
00:40:02,670 --> 00:40:05,210
that the ghosts can manipulate that sweep
639
00:40:05,540 --> 00:40:09,420
and then when you hear a word, it means that a ghost has somehow said it.
640
00:40:11,260 --> 00:40:13,590
Can you say the name of somebody that you want to talk to?
641
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,520
- Did it just say my name?
- Yeah.
642
00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:20,430
I never liked that very much.
643
00:40:20,430 --> 00:40:24,440
So when I saw what our friends Karl Pfeiffer and Connor Randall came up with,
644
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:26,360
I was blown away.
645
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,190
What Karl and Connor started to do
646
00:40:28,190 --> 00:40:31,570
is they would use a blindfold and a pair of headphones,
647
00:40:32,070 --> 00:40:36,280
and the headphones would plug directly into the spirit box,
648
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,500
meaning that the only person who could hear the feed was the medium.
649
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,620
That person,
650
00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:44,330
their world was just the audio.
651
00:40:44,330 --> 00:40:45,540
They couldn't see anything,
652
00:40:45,540 --> 00:40:48,550
and the only thing that they could hear were those sweeping radio stations.
653
00:40:49,090 --> 00:40:54,840
So when whoever was acting as the questioner would speak to the ghosts,
654
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,310
occasionally, they would start to get an answer from the medium,
655
00:40:58,310 --> 00:41:01,020
who didn’t see them or hear them.
656
00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:08,270
When I watched Connor become a mouthpiece for something that we couldn't see,
657
00:41:09,530 --> 00:41:12,320
I knew there was something special about the Estes Method.
658
00:41:12,570 --> 00:41:15,240
I was really fascinated with it.
659
00:41:15,530 --> 00:41:18,870
That was Dana talking - Now that Dana is “in”,
660
00:41:19,620 --> 00:41:21,080
we’ll pull the Crone out.
661
00:41:24,540 --> 00:41:27,750
...since the last live-stream that we did.
662
00:41:35,970 --> 00:41:37,390
There is motion, yes.
663
00:41:41,060 --> 00:41:43,850
We’re going to take you home, we’re going to take you back.
664
00:41:43,850 --> 00:41:48,860
But before we do that, we want to take your picture.
665
00:41:48,860 --> 00:41:51,860
That camera is going to send out little beams of light
666
00:41:51,860 --> 00:41:54,950
that are gonna bounce off the artifact that you inhabit.
667
00:41:56,490 --> 00:41:58,950
It’s not going to hurt you. It’s not going to choke you.
668
00:41:58,950 --> 00:41:59,950
It’s going to bounce...
669
00:42:01,660 --> 00:42:03,450
It’s not going to hurt you, I promise.
670
00:42:03,450 --> 00:42:04,960
It hasn’t hurt any of the other...
671
00:42:05,870 --> 00:42:08,130
It, it... I promise, it’s not going to.
672
00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:19,150
It’s getting a really smooth, fast scan.
673
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,650
I keep getting weird, sharp pains in random places.
674
00:42:31,570 --> 00:42:33,690
I’ve got one in my upper thigh.
675
00:42:34,990 --> 00:42:38,240
Dana spent most of the live stream under the Estes Method,
676
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:40,700
so she was unaware of anything that was going on in the room.
677
00:42:41,370 --> 00:42:45,750
The first scan, there were two moments that Dana complained
678
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,830
about feeling sharp pains at different points in her body.
679
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:52,170
At both of those moments
680
00:42:52,170 --> 00:42:54,880
we were actually performing one of the scans.
681
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:55,880
What?
682
00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:57,300
I’m going to.
683
00:42:58,300 --> 00:42:59,720
I have to.
684
00:43:00,430 --> 00:43:01,850
”Don’t make that”.
685
00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:04,600
You don’t want us to print you?
686
00:43:11,900 --> 00:43:13,570
It’s almost done, sweetheart.
687
00:43:13,570 --> 00:43:16,190
There’s like two people talking.
688
00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:18,570
Two voices.
- Two?
689
00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:22,070
”More names”. It just said “more names”.
690
00:43:22,570 --> 00:43:24,660
- Man, man.
- There’s two voices.
691
00:43:24,660 --> 00:43:30,540
There’s a very deep, growly, scary-sounding voice
692
00:43:30,540 --> 00:43:33,130
that just keeps trying to scare me.
693
00:43:33,130 --> 00:43:36,420
Okay. Whoever’s calling names, - But there’s another,
694
00:43:36,420 --> 00:43:40,930
there’s another voice, that’s a woman’s voice underneath.
695
00:43:41,890 --> 00:43:45,510
If you are attached to the Crone, can you tell us what your name is?
696
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,810
She said that as soon as I saved it.
697
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:56,360
Alright.
- This is so weird.
698
00:43:59,490 --> 00:44:01,360
- Yes.
- It’s flawless.
699
00:44:03,910 --> 00:44:05,120
Thank you.
700
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,660
The only thing it didn’t scan, there’s no nails.
701
00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:10,290
It didn’t even pick them up.
702
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,380
Okay. Good Here, let me save it.
703
00:44:14,540 --> 00:44:15,710
The first scan that we did,
704
00:44:15,710 --> 00:44:17,300
it went very smoothly.
705
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:21,840
In fact, it still stands as the number one
706
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,140
fastest, smoothest, best scan we ever got.
707
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,770
The only thing that was weird about it is that when we did the scan,
708
00:44:28,770 --> 00:44:31,980
there were no nails in the eyes and there were not even divots
709
00:44:31,980 --> 00:44:35,020
where the nails should have been. And there should have been...
710
00:44:35,610 --> 00:44:39,280
Because it scans the surface, it bounces light off an object.
711
00:44:39,860 --> 00:44:44,410
So the light hit those and it should have bounced off the nails, but never did.
712
00:44:44,660 --> 00:44:49,580
And to me that to this day, it's a still very bizarre phenomenon
713
00:44:49,580 --> 00:44:52,370
that should have happened but didn't.
714
00:44:52,370 --> 00:44:56,500
I keep hearing this thing, it’s not a word but I keep hearing it
715
00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:59,510
over and over again, and it says, “Biddum.”
716
00:44:59,510 --> 00:45:02,970
- Biddum.
- And it’s a man’s voice.
717
00:45:02,970 --> 00:45:06,510
And he just keeps saying “Biddum” and I don’t like him.
718
00:45:06,510 --> 00:45:07,970
Is it his name?
719
00:45:09,310 --> 00:45:10,600
Are you Biddum?
720
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,060
We’re doing another scan just to be safe.
721
00:45:15,730 --> 00:45:17,440
You’re not the first to call me that.
722
00:45:19,020 --> 00:45:22,570
- If... if...
- Pain in my back now.
723
00:45:22,570 --> 00:45:24,030
If you guys have questions...
724
00:45:24,030 --> 00:45:28,080
Three times throughout that hour and a half long session, I felt physical pain.
725
00:45:28,450 --> 00:45:31,540
And I remember thinking that it was very interesting because I had never felt
726
00:45:31,830 --> 00:45:35,460
anything physical in connection to doing the Estes Method before.
727
00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:39,840
So I felt pain in my thigh, in my upper back and in my throat,
728
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,590
and it felt as if it was happening at random.
729
00:45:42,590 --> 00:45:45,800
And I remember it was strong enough that I felt it was important
730
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,260
to vocalize it, even though I didn't know if it really had anything to do
731
00:45:49,260 --> 00:45:51,060
with what was happening around me at the time.
732
00:45:51,060 --> 00:45:52,060
Is there somebody...
733
00:45:53,140 --> 00:45:55,270
Are you being held prisoner by something else?
734
00:46:05,070 --> 00:46:06,490
That was so sad.
735
00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:11,870
It’s frozen.
736
00:46:12,330 --> 00:46:13,330
There’s two voices!
737
00:46:20,340 --> 00:46:22,300
Who is talking to me right now?
738
00:46:28,930 --> 00:46:30,140
And what’s your name?
739
00:46:38,190 --> 00:46:39,190
Biddum,
740
00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:43,530
You were alive?
741
00:46:45,610 --> 00:46:46,770
What the fuck did I tell you?
742
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:48,490
I wasn't terribly familiar...
743
00:46:48,490 --> 00:46:50,070
I knew of the Estes Method.
744
00:46:50,070 --> 00:46:52,780
But here I am watching it happen,
745
00:46:52,780 --> 00:46:59,250
you know, in person and happened very intensely and build very quickly.
746
00:46:59,540 --> 00:47:03,800
So I was... to say I was hooked is an understatement
747
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,050
because it was truly mind-blowing what I was watching happen.
748
00:47:08,050 --> 00:47:09,470
Something is...
749
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,640
There’s a woman crying. A crying voice.
750
00:47:17,770 --> 00:47:19,520
Under all of it.
751
00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:24,690
As it goes, duh-duh-duh-duh, I can hear a woman crying.
752
00:47:26,900 --> 00:47:29,240
Male voice number two, are you Biddum?
753
00:47:34,740 --> 00:47:36,160
What does that mean?
754
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:38,370
Don’t ignore the question.
755
00:47:44,250 --> 00:47:45,250
I’m too loud?
756
00:47:46,210 --> 00:47:48,380
I think that the woman’s being too loud.
757
00:47:48,380 --> 00:47:49,680
And this guy Biddum,
758
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:50,930
- Is telling her to shut up.
- He’s telling her to shup up.
759
00:47:50,930 --> 00:47:52,140
So he wasn’t addressing me.
760
00:47:54,260 --> 00:47:55,420
So they’re not talking to us,
761
00:47:56,220 --> 00:47:57,390
they’re talking to eachother?
762
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,730
I think that we’re watching a conversation happening
763
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,980
between two entities.
764
00:48:05,860 --> 00:48:07,320
When you do the Estes Mehod,
765
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,950
one of the things that I don't think is necessarily
766
00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:14,830
as important is the idea of listening for the same sounding voice.
767
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,620
I think because you're listening to random radio stations
768
00:48:18,620 --> 00:48:20,160
and lots of white noise,
769
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,790
it's easy to sort of think that you're hearing the same person
770
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:24,500
talking to you if it sounds like the same voice.
771
00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:26,960
And that's kind of something that I really don't agree with.
772
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,220
I think it's not really necessarily as important,
773
00:48:30,220 --> 00:48:33,890
but what was really interesting was this night specifically,
774
00:48:33,890 --> 00:48:38,520
I felt as if I was hearing the same two voices distinctly,
775
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,310
a male voice and a female voice.
776
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,980
And that felt important. It felt different.
777
00:48:42,980 --> 00:48:45,060
I had never experienced anything like that before.
778
00:48:45,060 --> 00:48:49,190
I was hearing two people have a conversation.
779
00:48:50,860 --> 00:48:52,740
What I don’t understand is
780
00:48:52,740 --> 00:48:57,160
who did this to this?
781
00:49:01,540 --> 00:49:02,540
Biddum?
782
00:49:05,420 --> 00:49:07,920
Who are... who is in the room with us right now?
783
00:49:11,010 --> 00:49:12,420
That’s how he said it.
784
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:14,880
Shhh!
785
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,220
I’m trying to figure out who I’m talking to right now.
786
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,020
That was loud.
787
00:49:24,020 --> 00:49:25,560
- Fuck.
- I made it.
788
00:49:31,570 --> 00:49:32,650
Brother Biddum?
789
00:49:33,450 --> 00:49:36,620
The nice thing about doing these live streams is there's sometimes 100 people
790
00:49:36,620 --> 00:49:39,410
or more watching them and they're all sitting at their computer.
791
00:49:39,870 --> 00:49:42,450
So plenty of people were Googling this
792
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:46,880
and they had all kinds of different ideas about what this could mean.
793
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:52,550
Some of them found translations of the word that related to prayer.
794
00:49:52,550 --> 00:49:56,130
It seemed that whatever it was, the root word of Biddum
795
00:49:56,430 --> 00:49:58,220
had something to do with prayer.
796
00:50:00,260 --> 00:50:01,600
Okay. Where’s the cave?
797
00:50:03,770 --> 00:50:05,980
It’s high. Is it in the mountains?
798
00:50:08,730 --> 00:50:09,730
It’s in the mountains?
799
00:50:10,980 --> 00:50:13,030
What mountains? New York mountains?
800
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:17,400
The Catskills?
801
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:21,080
Okay.
802
00:50:21,580 --> 00:50:22,290
Is it in a park?
803
00:50:22,290 --> 00:50:24,540
Something just put like a big...
804
00:50:24,540 --> 00:50:26,580
a sharp pain in my throat.
805
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:30,170
Between the second and third scanning, there were 40 minutes.
806
00:50:30,170 --> 00:50:33,420
So within that 40 minute time period, I did not experience
807
00:50:33,420 --> 00:50:34,670
another physical sensation
808
00:50:34,670 --> 00:50:39,140
until they literally fired up the the scanner for the third time.
809
00:50:39,140 --> 00:50:41,720
And that's when I experienced the pain again.
810
00:50:43,180 --> 00:50:46,640
I like to think that that night and that Estes Method Session,
811
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,150
that I really did connect with her,
812
00:50:49,770 --> 00:50:53,280
with the energy of her, with what had been happening around her.
813
00:50:53,650 --> 00:50:56,990
I really feel like I tapped into something and I think that it was that
814
00:50:57,450 --> 00:51:00,950
trance state that doing the Estes Method can bring you to,
815
00:51:00,950 --> 00:51:03,330
I think that that was what really allowed me to tap into her.
816
00:51:03,330 --> 00:51:06,540
And I feel very strongly as if there was a connection
817
00:51:06,540 --> 00:51:08,330
that really happened that night.
818
00:51:08,330 --> 00:51:11,420
If you understand this, tell her...
819
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:15,630
Tell her to not...
820
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,140
Tell her that he has no power...
821
00:51:20,140 --> 00:51:24,350
He does not have power over you. He has no power over you.
822
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,640
We were saying this earlier.
823
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:31,770
You can leave. You don’t need to stay there.
824
00:51:31,770 --> 00:51:34,320
Whoever is keeping you there, you don’t need to listen.
825
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,650
He has no power over you other than what you percieve.
826
00:51:39,860 --> 00:51:41,700
I know. You need to ignore him.
827
00:51:42,780 --> 00:51:45,200
Ignore him. He can’t do anything.
828
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:46,290
He can’t do anything.
829
00:51:47,500 --> 00:51:48,500
No.
830
00:51:50,250 --> 00:51:51,250
We are.
831
00:51:52,170 --> 00:51:53,130
You have permission.
832
00:51:53,130 --> 00:51:54,710
She said permission so loud.
833
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:55,960
You have permission.
834
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:59,050
You do not need to listen to this person.
835
00:51:59,590 --> 00:52:04,220
Whatever or whoever it is, you are your own person.
836
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:07,810
You can leave. You can go.
837
00:52:10,850 --> 00:52:13,860
It seemed that the larger picture was coming into view.
838
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:20,530
Biddum, or Brother Biddum implies some kind of man of religion.
839
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,700
Even the name Biddum seems to relate somehow to religion.
840
00:52:25,370 --> 00:52:30,160
The Crone itself was very obviously an act of witchcraft, of some kind,
841
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:35,210
and one of our first interactions with whatever entity was attached to
842
00:52:35,210 --> 00:52:39,670
the Crone had to do with the desecration of a Christian symbol.
843
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:44,390
To me, it seemed like what we were finally realizing was
844
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,850
there was a visceral reaction by this entity to Christian iconography.
845
00:52:50,930 --> 00:52:54,150
And it could be because there was some form of persecution
846
00:52:54,150 --> 00:52:57,650
that had happened to this person or thing
847
00:52:57,770 --> 00:52:59,530
at some point in the past.
848
00:53:01,570 --> 00:53:02,570
We’re going to help.
849
00:53:02,990 --> 00:53:03,990
We are.
850
00:53:05,820 --> 00:53:06,820
You’re in control.
851
00:53:07,490 --> 00:53:08,540
You’re not tethered.
852
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,210
She’s so loud right now.
853
00:53:16,210 --> 00:53:18,380
If it’s him, we will get rid of him.
854
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,510
We’ll get rid of him.
855
00:53:27,140 --> 00:53:29,930
I think in that moment it's very easy to wonder
856
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,520
if we were being manipulated or not.
857
00:53:35,190 --> 00:53:41,230
But if you hear someone screaming down a dark alley for help,
858
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,110
are you going to go help them
859
00:53:44,110 --> 00:53:46,870
or are you going to stand there and go, No, that's a trick.
860
00:53:48,620 --> 00:53:50,160
And I think we felt
861
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,540
very strongly that at that point,
862
00:53:53,540 --> 00:53:56,370
the right thing to do was to help.
863
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,590
A few days after the Halloween livestream,
864
00:54:03,590 --> 00:54:08,260
Jason contacted us with some progress in his 3D scanning.
865
00:54:10,430 --> 00:54:16,730
There was no way to 3D print it with the nails and the noose.
866
00:54:17,350 --> 00:54:18,650
They were too thin.
867
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,440
The nails were definitely too thin, so they had to be digitally removed.
868
00:54:22,730 --> 00:54:27,110
And we thought it would be interesting to put an actual noose on the 3D print.
869
00:54:27,530 --> 00:54:31,870
In order to do that, he had to actually separate the Crone’s head from its body.
870
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:33,660
I mean, I had manipulated
871
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:37,670
probably a hundred different things from children's toys
872
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:42,170
to accessories for, you know, our Amazon equipment.
873
00:54:43,050 --> 00:54:45,550
I had, you know, I had started to build a drone.
874
00:54:45,550 --> 00:54:47,470
I was 3D printing a drone.
875
00:54:47,470 --> 00:54:51,890
I had done post-production on dozens of these objects.
876
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:54,560
Never,
877
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:57,890
not before, not after,
878
00:54:58,980 --> 00:55:01,190
did I ever anything happen
879
00:55:01,190 --> 00:55:02,570
like it did with the Crone.
880
00:55:02,980 --> 00:55:07,820
I have no idea what’s going to happen because I’ve never had it just openly,
881
00:55:08,990 --> 00:55:13,160
defiantly change the design of what I’ve built.
882
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,580
When I started editing the file, I was able to get the noose off, no problem.
883
00:55:16,580 --> 00:55:20,330
But I was left with two pieces: a head and a body.
884
00:55:20,330 --> 00:55:22,590
But when I did that,
885
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,920
it looked like these fingers or tendrils
886
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,970
were coming out of the bottom.
887
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,600
They were twisted, they were in the wrong position,
888
00:55:36,140 --> 00:55:39,770
and you could tell what they were because they had fingernails on them.
889
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:42,900
We would have known if somebody
890
00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:47,030
had scanned their fingers into this thing, we would have seen it on the 3D scan.
891
00:55:47,030 --> 00:55:48,650
We were able to look at both of them
892
00:55:48,650 --> 00:55:50,410
immediately as it scanned.
893
00:55:50,410 --> 00:55:52,780
And I had taken my hand away from
894
00:55:53,990 --> 00:55:57,540
the mouse, so the file was manipulating itself.
895
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,750
At no point did I... I have no explanation for what I saw.
896
00:56:04,460 --> 00:56:08,970
It just seemed like a really obvious indication
897
00:56:08,970 --> 00:56:12,890
that something was trying to escape from this piece.
898
00:56:13,550 --> 00:56:15,560
It was a visual reminder
899
00:56:15,890 --> 00:56:17,560
of what we were trying to do.
900
00:56:25,190 --> 00:56:29,110
We'd had enough problems with the 3D scanning project at that point.
901
00:56:29,110 --> 00:56:31,320
The Crone was sort of the last straw.
902
00:56:31,610 --> 00:56:36,370
But the preservation of these things was still very, very important to us.
903
00:56:36,990 --> 00:56:42,210
And knowing that our time with the Crone was coming to an end,
904
00:56:42,210 --> 00:56:47,050
it was more important to us than ever to somehow preserve her.
905
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,630
It's very serendipitous that we met Tyler Strand
906
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:52,180
around the same time.
907
00:56:53,010 --> 00:56:55,090
- There he is!
- What’s up!
908
00:56:55,090 --> 00:56:56,260
Hey buddy.
909
00:56:57,310 --> 00:56:59,150
- C’mon in!
- We’re like half an hour early...
910
00:57:09,940 --> 00:57:11,990
My name is Tyler Strand.
911
00:57:11,990 --> 00:57:17,580
I am a special makeup and effects artist, so I'm involved in everything from
912
00:57:17,580 --> 00:57:23,000
molding objects, creating custom prosthetics, dental wear, prosthetic eyes,
913
00:57:23,210 --> 00:57:25,670
the whole gamut of works, creating monsters
914
00:57:26,420 --> 00:57:29,000
on top of being a paranormal investigator.
915
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:31,670
So I live a life of monsters.
916
00:57:33,050 --> 00:57:33,880
He's a really great artist
917
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,220
and he's someone who can help us preserve
918
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,060
objects in the museum at a museum-quality level.
919
00:57:41,060 --> 00:57:45,770
And he felt like someone that was really going to be a big help
920
00:57:45,770 --> 00:57:48,770
when it came to the act of actually preserving the Crone.
921
00:57:50,690 --> 00:57:54,530
I'm passionate about the paranormal because it's a pursuit
922
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,490
of everything that I view as
923
00:57:58,870 --> 00:58:01,160
higher or thought-provoking in our reality.
924
00:58:02,330 --> 00:58:04,250
You're tackling age-old mysteries
925
00:58:04,250 --> 00:58:07,040
that have always been at the forefront of the human experience,
926
00:58:07,750 --> 00:58:10,340
and I can't think of anything else
927
00:58:10,340 --> 00:58:14,630
that invokes that in me or has so much substance to it.
928
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,550
The study of the supernatural, to me,
929
00:58:18,550 --> 00:58:20,430
is the study of the self.
930
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,280
We made a promise to the Crone that we were going to return her.
931
00:58:33,650 --> 00:58:37,700
We were coming up on almost a year since we made that promise,
932
00:58:37,700 --> 00:58:41,780
And we were having a really busy year, and we had one short window
933
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:46,160
where we could still take her back in that year before it got too cold
934
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,840
and there was just no way we were going to make it up the mountain.
935
00:58:50,750 --> 00:58:55,010
So we made plans and picked up Tyler and drove to Ellenville.
936
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,890
Ellenville is the town at the base of the mountain
937
00:58:59,890 --> 00:59:00,970
that the crown came from.
938
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:06,430
We get to Ellenville and we start to notice
939
00:59:06,930 --> 00:59:11,440
that there's Ukrainian text on signs,
940
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,650
on businesses, on churches.
941
00:59:14,110 --> 00:59:18,860
What... is... is it. An old...
942
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,030
Church! It was a church.
943
00:59:22,030 --> 00:59:25,040
It says “Ukrainian Native Faith Church.”
944
00:59:25,330 --> 00:59:26,830
What we didn't anticipate
945
00:59:26,830 --> 00:59:30,920
was the massive Ukrainian community that was in this town
946
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,920
and that started to spin our wheels and we wondered,
947
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,930
could there be some kind of Slavic or
948
00:59:38,930 --> 00:59:41,890
Ukrainian connection to this item?
949
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:44,930
We're on the road so we don't have access
950
00:59:44,930 --> 00:59:47,810
to a lot of research materials except for Google.
951
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,810
What we did is, we texted our friend John Tenney.
952
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:56,110
John’s a font of knowledge on the paranormal
953
00:59:56,110 --> 00:59:59,610
and he keeps lots of files on all kinds of stuff.
954
00:59:59,610 --> 01:00:03,530
He's a really great resource to have when we’re stumped on something.
955
01:00:03,530 --> 01:00:05,080
John knew what we were doing.
956
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:06,410
He knew where we were.
957
01:00:06,410 --> 01:00:08,790
He knew that we were out to return the Crone.
958
01:00:08,790 --> 01:00:11,210
So when I texted him, I said, Listen,
959
01:00:11,210 --> 01:00:15,710
can you think of any connection that that might have to this item?
960
01:00:16,130 --> 01:00:17,840
And he texted me back and said,
961
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:20,680
Baba Yaga.
962
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,850
Baba Yaga is arguably
963
01:00:23,850 --> 01:00:27,060
the most famous witch in Ukrainian folklore.
964
01:00:28,310 --> 01:00:30,390
She has existed,
965
01:00:31,140 --> 01:00:33,900
I mean, basically since the beginning of Ukrainian folklore.
966
01:00:34,110 --> 01:00:36,570
She's sort of that Crone archetype.
967
01:00:37,730 --> 01:00:40,320
She exists in the forest,
968
01:00:40,700 --> 01:00:43,450
in a house with chicken legs.
969
01:00:45,070 --> 01:00:49,370
People are kind of scared of her, but she does good even though
970
01:00:49,370 --> 01:00:51,040
people are scared of her.
971
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:55,630
And it seemed really interesting.
972
01:00:57,550 --> 01:01:01,630
After Tenney came back with Baba Yaga, I started to do some Googling.
973
01:01:01,630 --> 01:01:04,010
As I'm scrolling through the search results for Baba Yaga,
974
01:01:04,010 --> 01:01:08,970
looking at pictures, I see a carved statue.
975
01:01:09,470 --> 01:01:11,600
I click on it, it takes me to an Etsy shop,
976
01:01:12,140 --> 01:01:18,480
and this is an Etsy shop based out of Russia that creates custom, carved,
977
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,940
altar dolls meant for religious worship.
978
01:01:21,940 --> 01:01:23,910
Traditional Slavic paganism.
979
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,910
The Baba Yaga doll didn't quite look right,
980
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:29,700
but as I scrolled,
981
01:01:29,700 --> 01:01:33,290
there was another altar doll named MoKosh,
982
01:01:34,170 --> 01:01:37,210
and it looked pretty darn close.
983
01:01:38,750 --> 01:01:40,170
I googled Mokosh,
984
01:01:40,170 --> 01:01:42,470
which led me to the story
985
01:01:43,010 --> 01:01:46,550
of really the only female goddess
986
01:01:46,550 --> 01:01:48,350
in the Slavic pantheon.
987
01:01:50,850 --> 01:01:52,890
The name Mokosh
988
01:01:54,140 --> 01:01:56,480
comes from the root word mokry,
989
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,770
which is the Russian word for wet.
990
01:02:02,070 --> 01:02:05,030
Mokosh was the goddess of moisture
991
01:02:05,860 --> 01:02:08,410
and fate and witchcraft.
992
01:02:15,330 --> 01:02:17,420
My name is Jeanmarie Rouhier-Willoughby
993
01:02:17,420 --> 01:02:20,090
I am a professor of Russian folklore and linguistics
994
01:02:20,090 --> 01:02:21,500
at the University of Kentucky.
995
01:02:22,260 --> 01:02:24,590
We have no actual evidence
996
01:02:24,590 --> 01:02:27,680
about the Slavic pantheon or the Slavic gods.
997
01:02:28,140 --> 01:02:30,970
Particularly East Slavic, which is what you're interested in.
998
01:02:32,010 --> 01:02:34,980
Unlike in Greece and Rome, these were not literate people.
999
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,400
There were no ethnographers
1000
01:02:38,770 --> 01:02:42,940
who were coming in to write down what these people believed or what they did
1001
01:02:43,190 --> 01:02:45,510
or what the rituals look like, or what the practices were.
1002
01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:50,120
So everything that has been written on this topic,
1003
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:53,620
95% of it, is based on speculation
1004
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:59,040
and parallels to what they know about other European cultures,
1005
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,710
which may or may not be what was there.
1006
01:03:03,590 --> 01:03:05,300
So there's almost nothing.
1007
01:03:05,300 --> 01:03:06,550
But the Russian specialists
1008
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:09,930
felt that Russia suffered
1009
01:03:10,050 --> 01:03:14,560
from not having the same type of heritage documented
1010
01:03:14,890 --> 01:03:18,980
that were in other great nations, and so pretty much out of whole cloth
1011
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:22,690
they determined what it was on the basis
1012
01:03:22,690 --> 01:03:25,230
of little scraps of very little information.
1013
01:03:25,740 --> 01:03:28,610
We know that to some extent,
1014
01:03:29,570 --> 01:03:32,030
obviously, there was a belief system
1015
01:03:32,030 --> 01:03:36,410
and we know that those gods were worshiped by somebody.
1016
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,000
But what the organization was and how they were worshiped
1017
01:03:40,460 --> 01:03:44,460
and really what they mean is... A lot of it is extrapolated.
1018
01:03:44,750 --> 01:03:47,420
So that brings us to Neopagans, right?
1019
01:03:47,420 --> 01:03:51,680
Because what the Neopagans are arguing is very much like the Soviets:
1020
01:03:52,510 --> 01:03:55,180
Christianity is not our faith.
1021
01:03:55,180 --> 01:03:57,270
We had an older faith.
1022
01:03:57,270 --> 01:04:00,850
And so what they've done is they've seized on these
1023
01:04:01,770 --> 01:04:06,650
beautiful pictures of constructed pantheons
1024
01:04:06,820 --> 01:04:11,990
written by these 19th century and Soviet era scholars to create
1025
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:15,240
a belief system.
1026
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:20,210
How popular are Neopagan, Slavic beliefs in the United States?
1027
01:04:20,540 --> 01:04:24,380
There's very small groups, but they are really small.
1028
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,760
So one of the groups that... There are some in Canada,
1029
01:04:29,220 --> 01:04:31,760
there are some in the northeastern U.S.
1030
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,140
There's one in New York that's pretty small.
1031
01:04:36,140 --> 01:04:39,140
Again, not much going on, and that's about it.
1032
01:04:40,100 --> 01:04:44,190
I mean, except maybe emmigrates who've come and brought
1033
01:04:44,190 --> 01:04:45,360
their religion with them.
1034
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:53,490
But the image you have, that statue does not...
1035
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:58,160
What's weird about that statue to me, that makes it an anachronism...
1036
01:04:58,410 --> 01:05:02,370
If it's a Neopagan group, I don't think there'd be any reason
1037
01:05:02,370 --> 01:05:05,920
to have a noose or nails.
1038
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:07,920
It would be different
1039
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,300
because the model is so powerful for them,
1040
01:05:12,260 --> 01:05:14,970
that is this established model
1041
01:05:14,970 --> 01:05:18,010
in the literary tradition.
1042
01:05:18,010 --> 01:05:22,600
So if you go to their pages, again, all in Russian or Ukrainian, but if you go
1043
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:27,230
and look you see that they keep using these same old images
1044
01:05:27,230 --> 01:05:34,490
and when they create contemporary versions, they're models of those.
1045
01:05:34,490 --> 01:05:37,160
And that statue does not, to me, look like that.
1046
01:05:37,740 --> 01:05:42,040
Is it mostly the nails and the noose that causes...
1047
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:42,540
Yeah.
1048
01:05:42,540 --> 01:05:45,330
Plus her hand would almost inevitably
1049
01:05:45,460 --> 01:05:46,750
be holding something.
1050
01:05:48,380 --> 01:05:50,420
Looking at images of Mokosh,
1051
01:05:50,420 --> 01:05:53,510
there are statues that show her
1052
01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:57,010
standing with her arms at her side,
1053
01:05:57,010 --> 01:05:58,600
holding a bucket of water.
1054
01:06:04,850 --> 01:06:07,980
Sometimes she was depicted holding a ball of twine because she was
1055
01:06:07,980 --> 01:06:09,440
also the goddess of fate.
1056
01:06:11,860 --> 01:06:13,940
For the first time, we realized
1057
01:06:13,940 --> 01:06:16,820
what went between the Crone’s arms.
1058
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:22,410
What we found out when we were trying to make that replica,
1059
01:06:22,410 --> 01:06:24,330
trying to make it as accurate as possible.
1060
01:06:24,710 --> 01:06:27,420
The carving itself seemed fairly old.
1061
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:30,460
The nails and the noose were pretty new.
1062
01:06:30,460 --> 01:06:32,460
They were added.
1063
01:06:32,460 --> 01:06:35,420
We were able to find... the closest we could find... we went to every
1064
01:06:35,420 --> 01:06:37,050
hardware store we could find.
1065
01:06:37,380 --> 01:06:42,220
We found the nails and the noose material both at Wal-Mart.
1066
01:06:42,220 --> 01:06:45,640
Which is the only big store at the base of that mountain.
1067
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:48,810
So it seems like somebody had taken an existing carving,
1068
01:06:48,810 --> 01:06:52,570
and potentially had... you know, who knows the purpose of it...
1069
01:06:52,570 --> 01:06:56,110
Had done something to it, they’d added those to it.
1070
01:06:59,570 --> 01:07:02,410
She is strongly associated
1071
01:07:02,410 --> 01:07:04,370
because of this connection with Paraskeva,
1072
01:07:04,370 --> 01:07:10,210
with weaving, spinning, obviously fertility,
1073
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:16,300
particularly of cows and women.
1074
01:07:16,300 --> 01:07:20,890
People sought her for help, but then she also sometimes scared people.
1075
01:07:20,890 --> 01:07:24,970
One of the things that she did was she quite often stole children.
1076
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:47,870
Yes, there is definitely... definitely the potential for...
1077
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,000
for conflict
1078
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,050
between Neopagan groups and Christian groups,
1079
01:07:56,300 --> 01:07:59,800
particularly because the Neopagans are saying that Christianity is false
1080
01:08:00,050 --> 01:08:02,890
and not ours or especially orthodoxy.
1081
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,350
And the Orthodox groups
1082
01:08:06,350 --> 01:08:08,480
have done very well
1083
01:08:08,730 --> 01:08:12,350
in the post-Soviet period, you know, the first ten...
1084
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,820
the first decade was tricky, getting reestablished,
1085
01:08:16,820 --> 01:08:18,990
but they have really established themselves
1086
01:08:18,990 --> 01:08:21,530
as powerful social forces
1087
01:08:22,070 --> 01:08:24,120
and they do not want
1088
01:08:24,990 --> 01:08:27,950
any potential competition.
1089
01:08:27,950 --> 01:08:30,330
Yes, definitely the potential
1090
01:08:30,330 --> 01:08:31,490
for a great deal of conflict.
1091
01:08:34,340 --> 01:08:36,420
Mokosh was considered
1092
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:40,090
a Chthonic deity,
1093
01:08:40,470 --> 01:08:43,890
not good and not evil, a complete gray area.
1094
01:08:44,140 --> 01:08:46,970
Basically live and let live.
1095
01:08:47,220 --> 01:08:51,850
And this entire time we were struggling with whether or not
1096
01:08:51,850 --> 01:08:53,940
the Crone was good or bad.
1097
01:08:53,940 --> 01:08:57,070
And really the answer is
1098
01:08:57,480 --> 01:08:58,730
neither.
1099
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:09,250
The night before we were set to go up the mountain,
1100
01:09:10,370 --> 01:09:13,580
we stopped about an hour outside of our destination
1101
01:09:14,210 --> 01:09:16,790
and got a hotel so that we could prepare.
1102
01:09:18,090 --> 01:09:22,720
One of the most important things to get a replica of the Crone
1103
01:09:22,970 --> 01:09:24,470
was to create a box mold.
1104
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:29,220
So that was the first time that Tyler had the opportunity
1105
01:09:29,220 --> 01:09:34,350
to actually hold the Crone and see her even just in closer detail.
1106
01:09:34,690 --> 01:09:36,190
And it was a big moment for him.
1107
01:09:40,900 --> 01:09:43,650
I knew that there was going to be a lot of manhandling of this object
1108
01:09:43,650 --> 01:09:47,450
that for a very long time had not even been touched.
1109
01:09:47,450 --> 01:09:50,870
And so I was very nervous about the idea of Tyler coming at her
1110
01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:55,500
with implements and measuring her and having her out of the box
1111
01:09:55,500 --> 01:09:59,300
and really kind of putting her through what felt like a very sterile exploration.
1112
01:09:59,300 --> 01:10:02,380
It felt frightening to me because I wasn't sure what was going to happen.
1113
01:10:02,380 --> 01:10:06,140
This object had not been handled very much, let alone in the past few months
1114
01:10:06,140 --> 01:10:07,140
at that point.
1115
01:10:13,850 --> 01:10:19,770
The atmosphere inside of this room significantly changed, rapidly,
1116
01:10:20,900 --> 01:10:23,490
almost like there was an electricity in the air.
1117
01:10:24,450 --> 01:10:27,530
After a few minutes, Tyler went and he grabbed
1118
01:10:27,530 --> 01:10:28,530
his Gauss meter.
1119
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:35,660
This thing’s really sensitive.
1120
01:10:41,380 --> 01:10:42,920
Are you serious?
1121
01:10:59,610 --> 01:11:03,030
I've never seen anything like that before, especially not with
1122
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:07,490
an inanimate object, seemingly, made out of wood.
1123
01:11:08,070 --> 01:11:11,370
I've never experienced those kinds of spikes
1124
01:11:11,370 --> 01:11:13,620
that were so apparent in something.
1125
01:11:34,100 --> 01:11:38,850
It really set the tone for how whatever it was seemed to be ramping up.
1126
01:11:39,230 --> 01:11:42,190
And that put us on edge because you could... You could hear it.
1127
01:11:43,730 --> 01:11:48,240
And it it felt a lot like handling a live grenade.
1128
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:52,370
I feel as if it was tolerated because of the just
1129
01:11:52,370 --> 01:11:55,830
her physical proximity to the location that she was going to be returned to.
1130
01:11:55,830 --> 01:11:58,080
It felt like there was some sort of an intelligent
1131
01:11:59,330 --> 01:12:00,790
energy there that was aware of that
1132
01:12:00,790 --> 01:12:03,420
and that's why it was being tolerated.
1133
01:12:15,220 --> 01:12:17,060
So we knew that we were going to return the Crone.
1134
01:12:17,060 --> 01:12:20,980
We knew we were going to unbind whatever was attached to the Crone,
1135
01:12:20,980 --> 01:12:23,360
and we knew we were going to make a mold of it.
1136
01:12:23,900 --> 01:12:25,730
This presented a really big problem.
1137
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,490
We couldn't make a mold of the Crone until we had removed
1138
01:12:31,490 --> 01:12:34,280
the nails and the noose, which were part of the unbinding ritual.
1139
01:12:36,830 --> 01:12:40,580
But we couldn't do the unbinding ritual anywhere except
1140
01:12:40,580 --> 01:12:41,580
her place of origin.
1141
01:12:42,710 --> 01:12:44,420
- Are you ready?
- I think so.
1142
01:12:44,420 --> 01:12:46,040
It was very, very important,
1143
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:49,760
Dana stressed how important it was, that we did it on the mountain,
1144
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:54,640
which meant we had to do the molding on the mountain
1145
01:12:55,350 --> 01:12:57,680
because we were not going to leave that location
1146
01:12:57,850 --> 01:12:59,310
with the carving.
1147
01:13:00,060 --> 01:13:01,640
This is going to be a hell of a hike.
1148
01:13:02,060 --> 01:13:04,230
This is gonna feel fuckin’ horrible.
1149
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:10,320
I honestly think that the ritual to unbind the Crone began
1150
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,650
the second that we got to the trailhead.
1151
01:13:15,740 --> 01:13:19,660
The second we started that walk, I was very aware of the fact that we were
1152
01:13:19,660 --> 01:13:21,830
already moving into that ritual headspace.
1153
01:14:07,500 --> 01:14:10,050
One of the oldest stories about Mokosh
1154
01:14:11,170 --> 01:14:15,760
is about how she was kidnapped by the God Veles,
1155
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:19,100
who was the God of serpents,
1156
01:14:19,100 --> 01:14:20,760
God of the underworld.
1157
01:14:22,850 --> 01:14:26,310
And Mokosh's husband, Perun,
1158
01:14:27,480 --> 01:14:29,820
had to chase him up a mountain
1159
01:14:30,860 --> 01:14:34,740
and cut Veles’ belly open to release her
1160
01:14:35,150 --> 01:14:36,530
from his grasp.
1161
01:14:38,700 --> 01:14:43,000
Which was pretty much exactly what we were doing,
1162
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,580
and we didn't even realize it.
1163
01:14:45,710 --> 01:14:48,170
We were taking an item
1164
01:14:48,170 --> 01:14:50,630
that seemed to have something trapped in it
1165
01:14:51,380 --> 01:14:54,010
to the top of a mountain
1166
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:56,300
to release it.
1167
01:15:26,870 --> 01:15:28,580
We're absolutely exhausted.
1168
01:15:28,580 --> 01:15:31,080
We finally get to the top of the mountain
1169
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,920
and Dana felt like this was the right place.
1170
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:36,920
This was the place that we were supposed to be.
1171
01:15:37,260 --> 01:15:39,010
Look at that view...
1172
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:44,560
And then as the sun went down, Dana reiterated how important it was
1173
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:48,810
that we stayed inside the circle no matter what.
1174
01:15:48,810 --> 01:15:50,270
Then she cast it.
1175
01:15:50,810 --> 01:15:52,270
Do we have everything that we need?
1176
01:15:53,270 --> 01:15:54,860
- We have wood.
- Yeah.
1177
01:15:54,860 --> 01:15:56,610
- We have food. We have water.
- Yeah.
1178
01:15:57,690 --> 01:15:59,280
- Yeah.
- Okay. Let’s start.
1179
01:16:04,580 --> 01:16:08,250
Because we’re doing things that are a little bit scary,
1180
01:16:08,250 --> 01:16:11,880
it’s just going to protect our space,
1181
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:16,090
so that whatever potentially could be drawn to it can’t enter the space.
1182
01:16:16,090 --> 01:16:17,920
And that’s what the black salt is for.
1183
01:16:27,770 --> 01:16:29,600
Extra on all our doorways.
1184
01:16:36,570 --> 01:16:40,610
I didn't know how we were going to finish everything we had to finish.
1185
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:42,410
We had so much to do.
1186
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:46,200
And as we’re sitting there, our phones start buzzing.
1187
01:16:47,490 --> 01:16:49,710
And it was because at that moment,
1188
01:16:51,580 --> 01:16:53,580
all of Dana's witches
1189
01:16:54,130 --> 01:16:57,170
were doing a ritual at the same exact time and they had just started.
1190
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,260
These are magic practitioners, people that I've been teaching for years and years
1191
01:17:02,260 --> 01:17:05,600
and we knew they would be able to lend us just as much energy.
1192
01:17:05,850 --> 01:17:09,680
So in one of the months we included an optional ritual
1193
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:12,980
that they could do alongside us as we were doing our ritual.
1194
01:17:12,980 --> 01:17:16,860
So we had this huge group of people who were able to lend their energy
1195
01:17:16,860 --> 01:17:20,030
and lend their magic to us as we were up on this mountain,
1196
01:17:20,030 --> 01:17:24,070
exhausted and tired and ready to give up at certain points,
1197
01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:28,370
we could feel them pushing us through the final mile of this
1198
01:17:28,370 --> 01:17:32,870
exhausting journey that had taken us three... three years to get to.
1199
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:41,470
With twine, nail, and wood times three...
1200
01:17:42,170 --> 01:17:44,380
No longer shall her binding be...
1201
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:46,390
- There?
- This way.
1202
01:17:47,890 --> 01:17:51,100
With twine, nail, and wood times three...
1203
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:54,770
No longer shall her binding be...
1204
01:17:56,400 --> 01:18:00,610
With twine, nail, and wood times three...
1205
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:04,450
No longer shall her binding be...
1206
01:18:05,610 --> 01:18:09,830
With twine, nail, and wood times three...
1207
01:18:10,540 --> 01:18:13,660
No longer shall her binding be...
1208
01:18:16,750 --> 01:18:20,960
With twine, nail, and wood times three...
1209
01:18:21,670 --> 01:18:24,800
No longer shall her binding be...
1210
01:18:30,060 --> 01:18:33,600
Hail and welcome to the earth, air, fire, water.
1211
01:18:34,140 --> 01:18:38,360
With twine, nail, and wood times three...
1212
01:18:39,060 --> 01:18:42,190
No longer shall her binding be...
1213
01:18:48,410 --> 01:18:49,830
We prepared our space
1214
01:18:49,830 --> 01:18:54,330
and I started to cleanse and consecrate the mundane tools that we would be using.
1215
01:18:54,330 --> 01:18:58,380
So literally pliers, things that would be used to pull the nails out
1216
01:18:58,380 --> 01:19:01,550
or a pair of scissors or whatever it was that we were going to need.
1217
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:06,550
We were prepping
1218
01:19:06,550 --> 01:19:10,970
that space and I was cleansing them so that we were removing any energy
1219
01:19:10,970 --> 01:19:14,810
that potentially was attached to it by people who had touched them previously.
1220
01:19:15,060 --> 01:19:17,600
Anyone who had used them without a ritual intention.
1221
01:19:17,940 --> 01:19:19,730
You want to clear that energy away.
1222
01:19:53,220 --> 01:19:55,020
We consecrate you.
1223
01:19:56,890 --> 01:19:58,690
And unbind you.
1224
01:20:04,440 --> 01:20:08,990
Dana's job was to consecrate the area and consecrate the tools and the Crone.
1225
01:20:10,780 --> 01:20:12,870
My job was to pull the nails out.
1226
01:20:14,450 --> 01:20:18,410
That was really the first time that it set in on me
1227
01:20:18,830 --> 01:20:21,710
what we were about to do, what was going to happen.
1228
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:26,590
We release the negativity bound to this object,
1229
01:20:27,260 --> 01:20:30,630
And we bind them to the nails and we release them.
1230
01:20:31,340 --> 01:20:32,840
And we release them.
1231
01:20:39,140 --> 01:20:41,850
It really struck a chord with me
1232
01:20:43,690 --> 01:20:48,230
because it felt less like something that we were fearing at that point,
1233
01:20:48,230 --> 01:20:52,160
and it felt a lot like he was holding somebody down
1234
01:20:52,740 --> 01:20:54,950
and he was doing something painful.
1235
01:20:54,950 --> 01:20:57,790
...to the nails. And we release them.
1236
01:21:05,170 --> 01:21:07,170
It was overwhelming.
1237
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:11,470
Every one of the nails
1238
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:13,930
was so hard to pull out.
1239
01:21:13,930 --> 01:21:15,800
With every one,
1240
01:21:17,100 --> 01:21:20,560
I reminded whoever or whatever it was
1241
01:21:21,180 --> 01:21:24,440
that what we were doing was we were unbinding
1242
01:21:24,730 --> 01:21:28,070
any source of negativity from this piece.
1243
01:21:29,070 --> 01:21:30,900
What we were doing was to help.
1244
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:36,830
We release any negativity associated with this object.
1245
01:21:37,410 --> 01:21:39,450
We bind it to the nails.
1246
01:21:41,580 --> 01:21:42,830
And we release it.
1247
01:21:59,390 --> 01:22:02,520
And that left Tyler to pull the noose off.
1248
01:22:03,940 --> 01:22:06,400
You’re not bound by this anymore.
1249
01:22:26,210 --> 01:22:28,670
You don’t have to suffocate anymore.
1250
01:22:38,140 --> 01:22:43,180
And it felt like there was just a pop in the air.
1251
01:22:43,180 --> 01:22:46,850
And all of a sudden this thing was just a chunk of wood.
1252
01:22:47,480 --> 01:22:49,560
Whatever it was was gone.
1253
01:22:54,740 --> 01:22:56,110
That felt right.
1254
01:22:56,110 --> 01:22:58,700
Listen, do you hear those coyotes?
1255
01:23:00,370 --> 01:23:02,040
- Listen, listen!
- Listen!
1256
01:23:13,250 --> 01:23:15,840
And as soon as that realization set in, we could hear
1257
01:23:16,130 --> 01:23:19,050
all the coyotes on the mountain start howling at the same time,
1258
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:21,600
we hadn't heard a single one up until that point.
1259
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:23,720
The mountain literally
1260
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:26,810
lit up with the sounds of coyotes,
1261
01:23:26,810 --> 01:23:29,150
coyotes singing this song
1262
01:23:29,150 --> 01:23:31,690
as if there was a rejoice of some kind.
1263
01:23:32,190 --> 01:23:36,320
And it didn't feel like we had this heavy burden anymore.
1264
01:23:36,900 --> 01:23:38,110
It was light.
1265
01:23:54,300 --> 01:23:57,760
After the unbinding ritual, we took the Crone into a tent.
1266
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:01,390
And Tyler and I tried our best to make a mold of this item.
1267
01:24:02,180 --> 01:24:04,930
We weren’t very confident in how it turned out.
1268
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:07,410
But we’d already done what we were there to do.
1269
01:24:07,430 --> 01:24:08,480
And that was good enough.
1270
01:24:22,070 --> 01:24:25,290
The next morning, we wake up from what little sleep we got
1271
01:24:26,290 --> 01:24:31,920
and we knew we needed to have a burial.
1272
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,920
We wrapped the Crone in a black sheet
1273
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:39,970
and we found a nice, quiet, shady spot
1274
01:24:39,970 --> 01:24:43,010
where we didn't think anyone would ever find it
1275
01:24:43,010 --> 01:24:45,050
and dug a hole
1276
01:24:45,050 --> 01:24:49,520
and we buried her. And just kind of had a moment of silence.
1277
01:24:49,730 --> 01:24:53,100
We just sat there and thought about what we'd been through
1278
01:24:54,310 --> 01:24:57,230
and said a few words.
1279
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:00,900
And then started our descent.
1280
01:25:06,370 --> 01:25:12,000
It’s very easy to put your own fears and thoughts onto an item
1281
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,790
to kind of force it to fit a narrative.
1282
01:25:15,590 --> 01:25:19,300
But to us this thing was just a scary statue.
1283
01:25:19,300 --> 01:25:21,010
That was exhibiting scary stuff
1284
01:25:21,010 --> 01:25:23,840
and it felt like we have to make it stop.
1285
01:25:26,010 --> 01:25:30,810
All these years later, seeing that entire journey, having that perspective,
1286
01:25:30,810 --> 01:25:35,730
and going, all of these details about Mokosh
1287
01:25:35,730 --> 01:25:40,110
line up so perfectly with everything that we and others were experiencing,
1288
01:25:40,110 --> 01:25:41,820
with this item,
1289
01:25:41,820 --> 01:25:47,120
leads me to believe that there’s objectively something happening
1290
01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:48,580
outside of us.
1291
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:52,460
That it wasn’t us haunting this object.
1292
01:25:52,460 --> 01:25:57,540
That this object either already was or became
1293
01:25:57,540 --> 01:26:00,340
a conduit for something old.
1294
01:26:02,590 --> 01:26:07,050
We were engaging with this ancient archetype of the Crone,
1295
01:26:07,050 --> 01:26:09,140
of Mokosh.
1296
01:26:12,430 --> 01:26:13,770
And we didn’t even know.
1297
01:26:14,890 --> 01:26:19,230
This whole time we had no idea that that is what was coming through.
1298
01:26:19,690 --> 01:26:21,530
That’s what we were experiencing.
1299
01:26:22,820 --> 01:26:25,410
The things that we found out about Mokosh
1300
01:26:25,410 --> 01:26:29,030
years after we thought we were done with this story,
1301
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:34,870
are so compelling.
1302
01:26:36,540 --> 01:26:41,380
It doesn’t feel like this was just something that we impressed upon it.
1303
01:26:41,380 --> 01:26:42,960
It feels like...
1304
01:26:45,220 --> 01:26:47,640
something was subtly guiding us to an end.
1305
01:26:56,020 --> 01:26:59,020
It’s three years later. We're finishing up all
1306
01:26:59,020 --> 01:27:02,070
the last pieces of this documentary,
1307
01:27:03,480 --> 01:27:05,320
and the one thing that’s bothering us
1308
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:07,360
is the fact that we can't put a bow on Biddum.
1309
01:27:07,660 --> 01:27:09,910
We don't know what Biddum means.
1310
01:27:09,910 --> 01:27:13,450
So we're sitting in the living room, we're going through Google.
1311
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:17,750
And while we couldn't find a meaning for the word Biddum,
1312
01:27:18,330 --> 01:27:21,130
we found a few things that really startled us.
1313
01:27:21,500 --> 01:27:24,380
...actually chilling. Like that is the stuff that...
1314
01:27:24,380 --> 01:27:26,260
Like, that’s magic at work.
1315
01:27:26,630 --> 01:27:29,140
The problem with Slavic paganism is that
1316
01:27:29,140 --> 01:27:32,560
there's only like bits and pieces of it that exist.
1317
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:36,180
So there are lots of different entities that share traits
1318
01:27:36,180 --> 01:27:39,100
with Mokosh or sometimes accompany Mokosh.
1319
01:27:39,850 --> 01:27:42,610
One of them is an entity called the Kikimora.
1320
01:27:42,610 --> 01:27:44,480
There are two different kinds of Kikimora.
1321
01:27:44,480 --> 01:27:46,490
The other one comes from the swamp.
1322
01:27:46,490 --> 01:27:49,280
It is said that she can be identified by her wet footprints.
1323
01:27:49,700 --> 01:27:52,580
When the home builders wanted to harm someone buying a house,
1324
01:27:52,580 --> 01:27:54,290
they would bring in Kikimora.
1325
01:27:54,290 --> 01:27:56,750
Once she is inside, it's difficult to get her to leave.
1326
01:27:57,080 --> 01:28:00,710
Swamp Kikimora was described as small, ugly, hunchbacked,
1327
01:28:00,710 --> 01:28:04,250
thin and scruffy old woman with a pointed nose and disheveled hair.
1328
01:28:04,250 --> 01:28:05,960
I'm fucking getting goose bumps.
1329
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:08,590
She was said to use moss and grass as her clothes.
1330
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:12,050
It was believed that she frightens people, knocked travelers off the road
1331
01:28:12,050 --> 01:28:14,560
and also kidnaps children!
1332
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:17,640
Yeah, that's fucking creepy.
1333
01:28:19,270 --> 01:28:21,520
As happens with a lot of pagan religions,
1334
01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:23,310
Christianity has a habit
1335
01:28:23,310 --> 01:28:27,530
of incorporating pagan gods and turning them into saints.
1336
01:28:27,860 --> 01:28:32,780
And they converted Mokos, or Mokosh, to Saint Petka.
1337
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:36,830
Saint Petka has a very specific holiday that is celebrated
1338
01:28:37,330 --> 01:28:41,330
the final weekend of October, usually between October 25th
1339
01:28:41,710 --> 01:28:45,000
and November 1st, depending on where that weekend falls in the year.
1340
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:48,170
The festival dedicated to this goddess
1341
01:28:48,170 --> 01:28:51,340
was celebrated sometime between the 25th of October
1342
01:28:51,550 --> 01:28:53,050
and the 1st of November,
1343
01:28:53,050 --> 01:28:55,220
depending on which date happened to be a Friday.
1344
01:28:55,720 --> 01:28:56,760
Unbelievable.
1345
01:28:56,760 --> 01:28:58,270
What day were you guys on the mountain?
1346
01:28:58,270 --> 01:29:01,640
We were on the mountain on October 26th,
1347
01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:03,980
is when midnight struck,
1348
01:29:04,730 --> 01:29:06,940
when we were making the mold for the Crone.
1349
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:09,690
My birthday, October 26th.
1350
01:29:09,690 --> 01:29:11,780
It's horrible out here.
1351
01:29:14,030 --> 01:29:15,030
What?
1352
01:29:17,740 --> 01:29:19,160
Thanks.
1353
01:29:19,950 --> 01:29:23,120
27 years old,
1354
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:25,170
sleeping on rocks.
1355
01:29:25,170 --> 01:29:28,250
“Historian and religious scholar Max Dashu
1356
01:29:28,250 --> 01:29:30,590
informs us that the old goddess of the pagans
1357
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:34,890
was known by many avatars across Europe, and that Friday was observed
1358
01:29:34,890 --> 01:29:38,060
as her holy day, beginning with its eve on Thursday night.”
1359
01:29:42,480 --> 01:29:45,650
You said it was between, what? The 20...
1360
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:50,030
The 25th of October and the 1st of November.
1361
01:29:50,030 --> 01:29:51,530
Whichever day was a Friday?
1362
01:29:51,650 --> 01:29:52,650
Yeah.
1363
01:29:53,110 --> 01:29:55,870
The 26th of October 2018
1364
01:29:55,870 --> 01:29:56,570
was a Friday.
1365
01:29:56,820 --> 01:29:59,450
- Haha! Get out of here!
- Get out!
1366
01:30:02,790 --> 01:30:05,120
What we didn’t realize at the time
1367
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:07,590
is we were actually climbing that mountain
1368
01:30:08,840 --> 01:30:11,210
on Thursday, October 25th
1369
01:30:12,470 --> 01:30:15,180
and performing that ritual as the clock
1370
01:30:15,430 --> 01:30:17,890
turned over to midnight on Friday.
1371
01:30:20,260 --> 01:30:23,520
Her feast day is celebrated on Friday, but traditionally
1372
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:25,600
begins on Thursday evening.
1373
01:30:26,980 --> 01:30:28,730
That is insane
1374
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:32,360
How’s that... How’s that happen?
1375
01:30:33,030 --> 01:30:37,200
How funny is it that we were so adamant we had to do this now?
1376
01:30:37,910 --> 01:30:40,790
- Yeah
- We had to do this now!
1377
01:30:43,540 --> 01:30:45,370
Of all the other days we could have gone,
1378
01:30:45,370 --> 01:30:48,040
of all the other windows we could have even had to go there,
1379
01:30:48,040 --> 01:30:52,840
things had to line up so specifically for us to be there at that exact time.
1380
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:55,550
It should even exist. It shouldn’t be real!
1381
01:30:55,800 --> 01:30:59,050
It’s so specific. It’s so specific.
1382
01:30:59,050 --> 01:31:02,350
And it’s that type of strange...
1383
01:31:02,350 --> 01:31:05,180
Here’s the thing, we can call it a coincidence if we want,
1384
01:31:05,690 --> 01:31:09,400
but there’s too many coincidences in this entire case.
1385
01:31:10,610 --> 01:31:13,440
It’s direct. It feels...
1386
01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:18,320
I mean, I can’t talk about it without having full-body chills because it feels like
1387
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,580
something else was in control.
1388
01:31:23,870 --> 01:31:28,370
I am not the same person now than I was before
1389
01:31:28,670 --> 01:31:31,790
the Crone’s investigation. And the realization
1390
01:31:31,790 --> 01:31:36,090
that we were communicating with or interacting with
1391
01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:40,010
a beloved goddess, it’s...
1392
01:31:40,010 --> 01:31:43,560
I don't think you can be the same person after having that kind of an experience.
1393
01:31:44,100 --> 01:31:47,810
It’s made me change my mind about how we approach a lot of these things.
1394
01:31:49,310 --> 01:31:52,860
It’s made me change my mind about what is behind
1395
01:31:52,860 --> 01:31:55,400
the activity with a lot of these things.
1396
01:31:57,950 --> 01:32:01,030
It feels incredibly narcissistic
1397
01:32:01,030 --> 01:32:05,330
to think, we were doing this on behalf of an ancient goddess.
1398
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:08,870
But I do think we brushed up against something
1399
01:32:08,870 --> 01:32:09,960
bigger
1400
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:11,420
than a ghost.
1401
01:32:12,290 --> 01:32:16,880
If you go back and you look at the stories of most of our ancestors,
1402
01:32:17,380 --> 01:32:19,130
a lot of those stories are scary.
1403
01:32:19,970 --> 01:32:21,510
And that doesn’t make them evil.
1404
01:32:21,510 --> 01:32:24,220
It makes them complex. It makes them
1405
01:32:25,390 --> 01:32:26,390
human.
1406
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:30,230
And that’s the irony.
1407
01:32:30,230 --> 01:32:35,190
The irony is that it’s that complexity that often gets looked at as evil
1408
01:32:35,190 --> 01:32:40,610
when it is something that should actually touch us on such a deep
1409
01:32:41,820 --> 01:32:46,450
human level that we recognize that these stories are us.
1410
01:32:46,450 --> 01:32:48,000
They are a part of us.
1411
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:53,130
And my hope is that people will walk away
1412
01:32:53,130 --> 01:32:57,670
and recognize that sometimes things are scary because they’re real.
1413
01:32:57,670 --> 01:33:02,220
And sometimes things are scary because that’s part of the growth process.
1414
01:33:02,220 --> 01:33:05,010
And that sometimes things are scary because they have to be scary.
1415
01:33:05,010 --> 01:33:08,640
Shit has to be scary sometimes for us to change.
1416
01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:13,060
It has to be scary for us to have an initiatory experience.
1417
01:33:13,060 --> 01:33:15,770
It has to be scary for us to grow spiritually.
1418
01:33:15,770 --> 01:33:20,110
We can’t always sit in this place of love and light,
1419
01:33:20,110 --> 01:33:21,860
we have to recognize
1420
01:33:22,820 --> 01:33:28,080
that the scary things are just the complexities of us as people.
1421
01:33:28,080 --> 01:33:31,080
And the complexities of a spiritual growth process.
1422
01:33:39,590 --> 01:33:43,800
...Right up to the base...
1423
01:33:44,430 --> 01:33:46,220
Just right there.
1424
01:33:46,970 --> 01:33:49,560
- Do you want me to hold this?
- Okay, wait, here’s the thing,
1425
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:53,020
I want you to hold this open like this.
1426
01:33:53,020 --> 01:33:54,020
Keep it open.
1427
01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:55,940
Hold it just like that.
1428
01:33:56,520 --> 01:33:57,770
It’s still toasty, but...
1429
01:34:02,900 --> 01:34:05,240
I don’t want to rip any more of that silicone...
1430
01:34:07,030 --> 01:34:08,200
It’s coming out!
1431
01:34:08,620 --> 01:34:10,450
My fucking god.
1432
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:14,920
Dude, it’s perfect!
1433
01:34:18,290 --> 01:34:21,090
Holy shit.
1434
01:34:21,090 --> 01:34:22,880
Look at that.
1435
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:25,970
Dude, that’s not nearly as bad as you made it out to be.
1436
01:34:25,970 --> 01:34:27,340
No...
1437
01:34:30,350 --> 01:34:33,350
Sometimes I think about the goddesses
1438
01:34:33,350 --> 01:34:35,520
and the gods that have been lost.
1439
01:34:36,980 --> 01:34:39,230
And I think about how they are
1440
01:34:39,650 --> 01:34:41,360
still here and still alive.
1441
01:34:42,780 --> 01:34:45,860
And I feel like the gods and the goddesses are coming back to us
1442
01:34:46,360 --> 01:34:48,990
to remind us of who we are.
1443
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:54,250
And that history is... It's not history.
1444
01:34:54,500 --> 01:34:56,960
It's like an organism.
1445
01:34:56,960 --> 01:34:58,920
It's like a living, breathing thing.
1446
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:03,050
It's finding its way back into the collective consciousness,
1447
01:35:03,210 --> 01:35:06,590
and it's allowing people to reconnect with who
1448
01:35:07,680 --> 01:35:08,930
they used to be.
1449
01:35:10,010 --> 01:35:12,260
And I think that that's a really beautiful thing
1450
01:35:12,770 --> 01:35:15,060
and that it is
1451
01:35:15,230 --> 01:35:18,060
a living thing and will continue to be a living thing.
1452
01:35:25,150 --> 01:35:27,780
Most of the objects that we encounter
1453
01:35:27,780 --> 01:35:31,120
I think are because someone has put so much
1454
01:35:31,120 --> 01:35:35,700
intention, emotion, fear, love, happiness, whatever
1455
01:35:35,700 --> 01:35:37,370
into a piece,
1456
01:35:37,370 --> 01:35:42,040
that that piece begins to exhibit those types of traits.
1457
01:35:43,170 --> 01:35:46,510
But I see it all the time that someone is so scared of something
1458
01:35:46,510 --> 01:35:48,930
that maybe never was haunted before,
1459
01:35:48,930 --> 01:35:50,800
they give it to somebody else,
1460
01:35:51,140 --> 01:35:53,100
and that person actually feels that fear.
1461
01:35:54,310 --> 01:35:57,940
And sometimes, it moves.
1462
01:35:58,850 --> 01:36:02,190
Or they see a strange shadow that they’ve never seen before.
1463
01:36:03,520 --> 01:36:07,610
If people can do that with an item,
1464
01:36:08,780 --> 01:36:11,950
what happens when there’s millions of people
1465
01:36:12,160 --> 01:36:14,030
doing that with the idea of a god?
1466
01:36:21,420 --> 01:36:25,000
That’s the type of thing we experience first-hand with haunted objects all the time.
1467
01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:29,470
These stories that people have imbued into these objects.
1468
01:36:31,010 --> 01:36:34,600
It’s the belief and the telling of the story that gives them power.
1469
01:36:34,890 --> 01:36:37,310
And to us, that’s why it’s so important
1470
01:36:37,810 --> 01:36:39,640
to tell the right kind of story,
1471
01:36:40,350 --> 01:36:42,900
because if it’s told enough times
1472
01:36:44,690 --> 01:36:45,980
it becomes real.
121817
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