All language subtitles for The.Jury.Murder.Trial.S01E02.The.Defence

The defendant John Reisdale
stands charged with murder,

and it is your duty

to decide whether he is guilty
or not.

The defendant attempted
to strangle his wife

and thereafter repeatedly struck her
in the face

with an industrial-sized hammer.

Crazy. So extreme.

Did you see the dents in her head?
That's murder.

The law does provide
a partial defence to murder,

described as "loss of control."

I've had a temper, and I've smashed
crockery. I've thrown it at my wife.

Oh, bloody hell.
Yeah.

I call, please, John Reisdale.

Can we trust our justice system?

To find out, we're re-enacting
an entire real murder trial.

You chose to use this hammer.
Yes.

Word for word, with actors.

To aim the shots
and basically bash her brains in.

She's still shouting, and I go to
put my hand over her mouth,

but I don't know why - I put my
hands around her throat instead.

But just as in a real court,

the jurors are ordinary people.

God, I just feel so sorry for her.

I believe that there are two sides
to every story.

I don't care what she said!

And in this ground-breaking
experiment,

there is a key difference.

There isn't just one jury.

There's two.

Both unaware of each other.

I wanted to give him a hug.

Is it crocodile tears or not?

I don't wanna do this any more.

They'll watch the same trial,

but will they reach
the same verdict?

Do you find the defendant guilty
or not guilty of murder?

Hi. Morning.

Want a coffee?

It's day three of the trial.

Tea? Black tea, please, darling.

Morning all.

Hello, mate.

I keep staring at him.
Every time I keep staring at him.

These jurors must decide whether
the defendant,

John Reisdale,
is guilty of murder or not.

I was looking at him like,

"You actually look like
a decent person."

But then again,
I've got in the back,

I don't actually know you,
none of us know you.

I could sit here right now

and tell yous lot that I am
the best person in world,

but yous lot don't know me.

I feel like there is way more to
this story than what we're hearing.

I stared at John, and I was like
"You did that? You? Wow."

It's a lot of weight on our
shoulders like,

we are the ones that are determining
if this man has done it or not.

This experiment is really important.

It shines a light

on our criminal justice system.

We have so little research
on juries.

This is so crucial for us

to gain insight into those dynamics

that are happening between people

behind closed doors.

A key question of the experiment

is whether different juries

could reach different verdicts
on the exact same case.

Across the other side
of the court house,

a second jury.

Both are completely unaware
of each other.

Oh, my God.

It's so intense doing jury work.

It really is.
It has been exhausting.

John hasn't looked at us.

But what is normal behaviour
in that situation?

There ain't normal behaviour.

He could have had nerves,
anxiety, what have you or,

you know, was he playing us?

Currently, I personally feel
that he knew what he was doing.

It's really shocking me
what he did.

Today is very crucial for him.

He's standing there fighting
for the rest of his life.

The enormity of that is quite scary.

He's fighting for the rest
of his life.

The defence case is that
John lost control,

and is therefore guilty
of manslaughter,

not murder.

This could mean as little
as two years in prison,

rather than a life sentence.

The concept of loss of control is,

"I was not fully aware
of what I was doing

"because of the circumstances
in which I did it."

That loss of control
has to be based on

an extraordinary provocation.

So there was something that happened

which made you lose your control.

If you are able to show there is
evidence of loss of control,

you then have to show

a reasonable person would have done
what you did,

given what you were going through.

Good morning.
We're going to make a start.

The defence begin at the very start
of John's relationship with Helen.

Mr Reisdale. We know you met Helen.

That's right.

She started by simply moving in
and you providing accommodation?

She rang me up and said she was
in a real fix,

and that she had got nowhere
to stay and could she come

and stay with me for a few weeks
until she got herself sorted out.

You agreed to that?
Yes.

Simply to have shelter?

She came to stay at my house
for a couple,

I would say for a couple of weeks.

But whilst she was with you,
a relationship began?

Yes.

Following his arrest,

John was interviewed four times
by the police.

The juries are read
the transcripts in full.

One day she seduced me,
and I was very willing.

I'd always found her attractive.

I kind of liked her wildness

and her kind of exciting creativity
and her personality

and how much fun she was.

No-one is more fun to be
with than Helen.

But it's sometimes
not always helpful,

maybe slightly out of control.

But again, there is a part of
my personality that appealed to

because I'm kind of the opposite,

I'm kind of a more control type
of person.

Helen might say I was a bit anal,

getting everything perfect.

The life I've created
for myself is perfect.

As well as police interviews,

a number of character statements
are read out to the juries

throughout the trial.

One is from Helen's best friend.

A couple of years ago,
she had a kind of breakdown,

and she went away

and she stopped contact
with everyone.

During that time,
I didn't see her at all,

and I really missed her.

When she came back,
she told me about John Reisdale.

At that time,

he seemed to be
the person who rescued her.

He seemed to be really supportive
of her.

I guess he had extremely
strong feelings towards her,

even then.

But she told me that she didn't feel
the same way.

I want you to help us with things
she said to you about you.

Did she describe you physically?

There were times she told me
that she found me unattractive,

but the strange thing really was,
though, that she would say it

and then take it back again
very quickly

and not be able
to remember having said it.

Did she ever say anything now
by way of comparing you

with other partners?

She would often make comments about
how much she admired previous

partners in different ways.
Yes.

I would say,
"Why are you telling me this?

"Is it cos you prefer them?"

And she would say "yes."

In the beginning,
Helen was very sweet and attentive.

But as the months passed,

she became increasingly manipulative
and unpleasant.

Helen would often hurl insults.

She would often call me fat, lazy,

useless in bed, not a real man -

insults I believed was
with the aim of getting a reaction.

Helen would have wild mood swings,

veering from very sweet to cold
and distant

and then moving on
to explosively angry

and Helen would shout and scream,

throw things around
and then often walk off.

Helen knew how to drive a person
to complete distraction.

She was very good at seeking out
what makes a person tick

and then kept on pushing
those buttons.

Did she descend to any particulars
as to what was unattractive

about you?
Yes. Please tell us.

She criticised the way I dressed.

There was similar comments
about my hair.

She told me that she thought
I was fat.

In 2020, your relationship
deteriorates, does it?

Yes.

Was that a very sudden thing
or a gradual tailing off?

No, it was really quite sudden.

Helen wanted it to end.

And how did you feel about
being told

that she no longer wished
to see you?

I would say really very deeply sad.

Heartbroken, yeah.

I can't stop.

I don't know where it came from.

The raw emotions, you're human.

It was like me in that box.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

The word that really triggered
my emotion

was the word "fat."

He said that she had called him fat.

And I've been spoken
to like that before,

I've had my insecurities
highlighted.

That's the first time I've been able

to relate and see him as a human.

That's why I'm so upset,
because I've been there.

You're going to get me going!

And the thing is,
the more it went on,

the more it was just me in that box.

And then it just,

and that was it.

Can you relate to him in terms
of why he stayed?

Yes. Yeah.

He just wanted to be loved.

When I was at school,
I was always called fat.

I was in a marriage,
I'd lost weight,

and I was really proud of my body,

and, well, I thought I was really
proud of my body.

I was a size 22,

and I lost weight,
and I was a size ten,

and I stood in front of my husband

and I said to him, "What do
you think of my new figure?"

And he went,
"Your tits are sagging."

Stop it.
Really?

I understand the pain that he had.

She knew what she was saying
that hurt him,

she knew what words would hurt him,

and she did it on purpose.

I felt sorry for him.

I wanted to hug him,

because I could see he was
a human being.

And, yes, he has done a crime,

and I'm not excusing what he done

but there was a reasoning behind it.

She didn't deserve to die,
but she was asking for it.

Well, I couldn't say she was asking
for it. She was.

That's going a bit too far.
She knew what she was doing.

She was winding him up,
but "asking for it" is a bit much.

It doesn't mean she deserved
it, but...

You're taunting someone
when you're doing that.

When John was crying,
I felt sorry for him.

I did feel sorry for him,

but I wasn't as affected as Jodie.

I think if you have
felt it yourself,

then it's going to be more
emotional for you.

But for me, it still comes back
to the aggressiveness

of the actual attack.

Even if she is saying,
"You're fat, you're ugly,

"you're this, you're that,"
um...

Walk away.

The defence are building their case
in the trial of John Reisdale.

What makes a good defence
in a loss of control case...

it's obviously helpful to paint

the deceased as someone who has,

over a period of time,
the longer the better,

made the life
of the defendant intolerable.

The defence will seek
to paint this picture

of the victim
as extremely provocative.

Some of the narratives around women

can really be played out here,

about, "Was she sad?
Was she mad? Was she bad?"

After breaking up with John,

Helen then restarted
their relationship,

six months before she was killed.

Helen sent me a letter apologising
for the way that things had been

in the past and how she wished it
could be different between us.

Did you respond?

I rang her up and she asked if she
could come and see me.

She came over and we talked
for a long time.

Was there more than that or not?

Yes, there was, yeah.

And she stayed the night, did she?

Yeah, she stayed the night.

Right. Thereafter, did your
relationship start up again?

It did, yes.

So, let's get through
to the December,

all right, when she's moved in.

Did you know where you stood
with her?

Yeah, I think I did, yeah.

And where was that?

She was in love with me,

and she was able to persuade me that
everything was different now

and she wanted us
to be happy together.

So you agreed to marry?

Yes.

Did you have any desire
to harm her ever?

No.

I truly believed that
we could be happy together.

I was like, "I've got no reason
not to get involved with her,

"she's really exciting,"
and I was single.

Apart from her friends saying,
"She is a crazy person,

"you really want to keep your
distance, she's unstable."

They said "mad"
but I didn't believe that.

I said, "She needs some therapy,

"because she's had
a very difficult childhood."

She has a history of drug abuse
in quite an extreme way

from the age of 14.

She starts sleeping with her
boyfriends when she was about 12,

which I always considered
kind of abusive,

and she had a number of abusive
relationships with partners.

My opinion,
based on what she's told me,

I think she's very, very unstable
but for some reason,

I could only ever see
the goodness, still only can.

So even though people tried
to point things out to me

about her behaviour and attitudes,
I said, "No, she's misunderstood

"and she's had
a very difficult life.

"All she needs is love
and some understanding

"and maybe the opportunity to have
a slightly more peaceful life

"instead of the chaotic childhood
that she did have."

After the wedding, her attitude
towards me changed completely,

and she could be really quite
hostile towards me at times.

There was more and more times when
it felt like she viewed me with

utter contempt.

She saw a number of general
practitioners and psychiatrists.

Did you help her with that?
Yes.

And hope that she would resolve
whatever problems she had?

Yes.

Helen would poke and prod you until
she got a reaction.

It seemed sometimes like
she enjoyed trying

to get people to snap.

Helen was capable of being

particularly violent with me

because she was aware

that I would not react
or really do much

to protect myself against her.

All this did was allow Helen
to assault me

and not fear any reprisals.

Some incidents involving Bradley
and Helen

were reported to the police.

On the 3rd December 2016,

Helen assaulted him in his home
after waiting for him

to return from a night out.

Moments later, Helen lunged forward,

and headbutted him,
causing a nosebleed.

A struggle followed
and she broke free

and began to smash up his flat.

Helen was given a police caution
for common assault

and criminal damage
in respect of these events.

In April 2017,

Helen broke into his flat
when he was on holiday

and stole his laptop.

She read his emails,
and then sent emails

to his current girlfriend
pretending to be him

and claiming that he still
loved Helen.

This is reported to the police.

Helen was charged with burglary
and theft from a dwelling,

to which she pleaded guilty.

During her teenage years,
she was difficult to discipline,

took up with the wrong friends

and was violent to others.

She had a desire for attention
and to be in control

and have power over men.

She has had sad, angry, evil
episodes lasting two to three weeks.

She has had suicidal thoughts
without an actual plan.

She wanted help with her mood
instability from the age of 14.

Her mood changes within the day
from minute to minute, hour to hour.

She occasionally steals still
and tells me it's funny.

She lacks remorse, is impulsive,

lacks empathy
and cannot delay goals.

In my opinion, she suffers from
cluster B personality disorder.

God, that was too much.

Heavy shit, man.
Wow.

Fuck me.

She is a nut-nut, though.

Oh, fucking nightmare.

It's the first time today
that I really didn't like Helen,

and I was just like, "What a bitch."

And then I had to remind myself,

she's still the one who's dead.

It's because he's being
portrayed as the nice guy,

and she's been portrayed as
the horrible one. Why can't he be?

He's just killed someone.
He's just bumped someone off!

I actually feel very sorry
for him, if I'm truthful.

I do as well.

Oh, my God,
this is actually too much.

We're talking about the deceased

and I feel really bad about that.

I don't feel like I need
to defend her, though.

She went from victim to victim

until she kind
of almost broke them.

There has to be a goodie and a
baddie in a story, doesn't there?

So, she has to be a good person
that got killed

by a really horrible person.

And I don't,

yeah, I don't see that.

I definitely believe that
people have got the power

to torment people to such a degree

that they want it to stop.

I think he was broken as a person.

I'm trying to almost fight
for the underdog,

and it seems such a weird position

because the underdog

is the person that has done
something absolutely horrific.

I think she was
a woman that was drowning.

So you've got a woman navigating
through life and she's fucked.

I don't believe the image
that's being painted of Helen.

Crazy, mad, unstable,

it sounds like they're
blaming her for the way she was.

So, what are you saying,

that people that have issues
that can't handle it,

that you can just whack 'em,
and then that's it - it's cool?

I just...that doesn't sit well
with me, I just don't like that.

I'm actually so pissed off
the way that they're portraying her,

it's actually really
fucking bothering me.

Like, you could tell that this
woman needed help,

and you are happy to just make
out that she was this violent,

horrible, da-da-da, but no,
it's getting on my bloody nerves.

I'm sorry,

I don't see him as someone

that's a nasty controlling animal.

The more I watched John today,

the more I felt his pain,

I was thinking, "My God, you have
been through some serious shit."

Tragic.

I just think she's had abuse
from a young age that's ruined her,

and created pretty much a monster.

I feel so emotional.

I think she's tried to deal
with it the way she's tried

to deal with it with the drugs,

it probably screened it all off
for her,

not realising the consequences.

UPSET: I've got mascara on,
I don't want it to run.

SHE EXHALES

Think of something funny.

Oh, God, I just feel
so sorry for her.

I just can't help to think, yeah,

that she went through her whole life

having all these problems,

and then she just went
and got killed

because of her problems -
that's what it sounds like.

It's so unfair.

I don't want to do this any more,

I want to go home,

I really don't want to do this,
I feel so sad.

Shall we just ask for a new case?
Please!

Something completely different?

THEY LAUGH

See you all tomorrow.

See you tomorrow, girl.
See you tomorrow.

Don't think about it too much.
I'll try not to.

This trial is having
a big effect on me,

because I'm feeling emotions
I've never, ever felt before.

In my brain before I go to sleep,
that's all I'm thinking of.

I wake up in the morning,
it's the first thing I think of.

I've put myself in her shoes,

and I kept thinking how hard
it must have been for her,

and I kind of related with her.

When I was younger,

I made choices that I'm not
proud of.

I didn't care about anybody,
like, I was just, like,

yeah, a little shit,
to be honest with you.

I wasn't actually living at home
when I was 15, I was in a hostel.

I felt very alone,
very, very, very alone.

I did get arrested,

because I robbed someone's phone,

and I'm not proud of it,
but I justify it,

only because I was on my own,
and, erm...

Fuck.

Yeah, so I was on my own,
and there was no money,

how was I gonna eat?

I was in a hostel,
and I didn't have anything.

When I got arrested,
I got let down by the system,

there was still no support,
literally.

I got put in the cell,
sent off to wherever,

and then that was it, done.
I've got a criminal record.

Who's going first?
Me. No, me, please.

No, no, we might as well go
that way. Youngest to oldest.

Just sh!

I probably could've become
like Helen.

I was just lucky and fortunate that
when I fell pregnant with my son,

my whole mindset just changed,

and I was like a complete
and utter different person.

How lucky are you?

All of us have the potential to have
a bit of Helen in us,

but we're all just lucky that our
lives led us the way it did.

Yeah, boy.

How is you guys today?

All right, you?
Yeah, I'm good.

Good after yesterday -
it was so emotional.

Ricky.
How are you?

I'm fine.
Are you OK?

Yeah.
You all right?

Yeah, I'm good.
Tough yesterday, weren't it?

It was really tough.

I was so emotional,
so, so emotional,

but I'm going to try not to let my
emotions get the better of me.

I think we will come to
a verdict, because...

..I think we're a group that
respect each other enough

to somehow come to an answer
and agree on it.

But I don't want to agree
to manslaughter.

I really don't want to.

Ricky's really set on manslaughter,

and I genuinely don't think he's
gonna... I'm really set in murder.

Let's go.

The defence now turn to
an event that occurred

in the weeks before the murder.

About ten days before
the fatal event,

when John brought items into
the workshop - he had some bags,

he had some knives wrapped up in
a cloth, or something like that?

That's correct.

He told you that he was,
once again, worried about Helen?

Yes.

That she had expressed thoughts
of harming herself

and killing herself?

Yes.

And he wanted to put
the knives out of the way

so she couldn't access them?

Yes.

I hadn't slept for three nights

cos of Helen's behaviour
and the worry.

She screamed in the night,

she'd been having
horrible nightmares.

Then she'd be awake,
and we'd talk for a long time

about the horrible things
going through her head.

She was...

..kind of like thinking
about killing herself,

and she was really seriously
thinking about doing it that day.

And I was like, "Right, well..."

I got Tor and said,
"Shut the furnace down,

"I'm taking her to the doctor.

"I don't want anything bad
to happen to her."

She had a lot of conversation about
how she didn't want to be alive,

how she would be better off.

I said, "Why can't you see it
the other way round?

"Because not only would your
children and your mum

"and your brothers,
but I would be heartbroken.

"That's why I'm taking it
so serious,

"and we've got to go to
the doctors today."

And did you encourage her to seek
medical help on this day, then?

I suggested to her, "Would it be
a good idea to talk to the doctor?"

She said she very much wanted
to do that.

I rang up and got her
an emergency appointment

and we were with the doctor
an hour and a half later.

All right.

Here you are on the Wednesday,
hiding things from her,

medication and weapons
in the form of knives, yes?

And taking her to
the local practitioner.

Were you wanting her
to be harmed or to allow her

to harm herself in any way?

No. Quite the opposite.

You see,

within days of this event,

you have conducted yourself
to cause her demise.

Yes.

I thought the world of John.

He was able to do what
I couldn't do.

She felt very loved

and supported and accepted by him.

I felt that she had
a totally unconditional loving,

nurturing and supportive husband.

I last saw Helen on 28th May

and she said,

"I knew being married was
going to be hard as John and I

"have our own ways of doing things
and have to learn to live together.

"I didn't think
it would be this hard.

"It's very hard,

"and sometimes I think I hate him.

"It's hard living with a saint."

What happened came as such a shock.

I trusted in John.

She was in good hands,

he understood her needs,

he nurtured her.

He genuinely thought he could help
her - he actually thought that.

He came in with a bag of knives,

because she was saying she was
going to self-harm.

Yeah, I have no doubt
that he loved her,

but he was mentally abused over
years and years. I think he was.

And sometimes that's worse
than physical abuse.

No, it is worse than physical.

Mental abuse is worse
than physical abuse.

Controlling, the gaslighting. Yeah.

I think he was proud that she would
stay with him, you know.

I think he wanted to keep her.

Yeah, because she was a ten
and he was a seven.

I have a lot more sympathy
for John now.

You know, she was the one
who was being really abusive.

But someone who's been abusive
towards their partner,

that person is insecure,

and that's why they're
being abusive.

So she was sabotaging
the relationship,

cos I think she did not
feel lovable,

and I don't think
she liked men because

she had been abused
since she was 12.

So maybe she retaliated by always

trying to bring them down,
you know.

I feel like what we just heard
has tipped me

a little more towards
manslaughter now.

When you're blinded by love,

and you can see they're
suffering, struggling,

you're going to want to keep trying.

You're not going to see signs
until it's too late.

I know what it's like
to love somebody that much.

To have unconditional love

for somebody like that is very rare.

Often it gets taken for granted

and doesn't always have
a happy ending.

He was a man that wanted
the best for this woman

and some people you can't help,

and she didn't want to be helped.

And it just got worse and worse
and worse

to the point where I think he just
did something outrageous.

I'm worried about him going away
for so long

and being away from his kids

because I can relate as I haven't
seen my daughter since 2020.

There was a breakdown
in the relationship

after my daughter was born.

I was restricted from seeing
my child for periods of time.

I decided that I'm
going to take it to court,

I'm going to fight for my child

because my child needs a dad.

John did the actual crime,

but I don't think he
deserved murder,

and I don't think he should be away
from his kids

for that length of time, basically.

The defence now come to
the killing itself.

She decided to decorate,

and this is when it sounds like
the actual argument we had today was

so stupid.

But some time ago she decided
to decorate the toilet.

I've got shells and loads
of little sculptures and objects

and things that matter to me
that I've collected up

over a period of time,
and she kind of scooped them all up

and shoved them in a box.

I'd been really upset about it,
and I said, "If only you'd asked me,

"I could have packed them away
really carefully for you.

"I can see that you need
to decorate the house

"to try and make it yours".

She started saying,
"This isn't my house,

"this is all your house
and all your things".

I said, "Well,
I don't know what more I can do.

"I marry you,
I give you everything I have,

"I sign over
half my business to you,

"I pretty much let you do
whatever you want,

"but I don't think you care about
other people's possessions,

"and sometimes it's
really offensive".

We ended up having this massive row,

and she started throwing things
at me,

throwing dishes and plates and cups.

I said, "This is even worse,

"you're smashing things up
that are ours".

So, where did you go?

I think I go...

I struggle to remember
exactly where I went,

because I was going in the house
all day, checking on the furnace,

coming in for different reasons,
going back towards the furnace.

So, there was toing
and froing during the day? Yeah.

All right. She's really angry
and I said to her, "Look,

"one of us needs to work,
I'm going outside".

So, I'm at the back door
and she throws a cup at me,

which smashes, and I think I kind of
like stood up and said, like, "Oi".

She throws another cup
towards me,

which bounces off the back door
and goes outside and smashes.

Did you go away or go back
into the house?

So, I turn round and go back
in again

and said "I'm really sorry
I called you selfish."

I said, "It's fine for us
to move all the pictures."

I say to her, "I'm quite happy
to move all my records",

and it's when I said "my" that she
really exploded into screaming.

Saying, "I knew it was all yours
and none of it's mine."

I realised I've really said
the wrong thing.

It was like she, she really,
really changed in that moment

and became wild,

just smashing things and shouting,
shouting abuse at me.

What sort of things was she
shouting at you?

Well, swear words but it wasn't like
coherent resentments.

It was just, kind of,
abuse which generated...

In the police interview
I described it as bile,

just hatred towards me.

Eventually, it was not even making
sense any more,

the words were nonsense words.

They'd gone from being recognisable
swear words, abuse,

resentments that I could understand,

to just being hatred
and throwing and smashing.

I just wanted to stop her
from shouting at me any more.

Was that when you grabbed
hold of her?

She's raising these things
up above her head

to throw at me
and still shouting at me

and as I moved forward towards her
to stop her, I slipped and fell.

Obviously, as I started to move,
I must have grabbed hold of her.

And she, again,
I'm not exactly sure where or how,

and sort of crashed into her.

And she looked really pleased.

And so, we end up on the floor,

and Helen's lying on her back
on the floor

and I'm on top of her

and she's still shouting.

I go to put my hand over her mouth,

but I don't know, I don't know why,

I put my hands round her
throat instead.

No, I know if I wanted her to
shut up I should have put my hand

over her mouth, but something
snapped at that point,

something else happened
and I don't understand.

John's defence to the charge
of murder

is that he suffered
a "loss of control."

She looked directly at me,
and she didn't look frightened.

I was frightened, I think.

How long were you holding her neck?

I don't know.

That's really the point at which it
all kind of becomes a bit of a blur.

Does she lose consciousness?

I'm not sure.

I don't know what happened to her.

It was almost like there was...

There's like a fog over memory,

the images that I have,

literally, like, foggy.

But I think the colour
of her face changed.

In what way?

It kind of went a bit bluey.

Kind of purple kind of colour.

Did you understand
what was happening?

No. I knew that I didn't
want to be doing it.

We know, Mr Reisdale,
that she was struck with a hammer.

Do you remember doing that?

I do. I can remember.

I can remember the colour
of her face having changed

and I remember standing up
and picking the hammer up.

Do you remember where it was?

These are not, these are not clear,

this is not kind of
a clear memory any more,

but what I can remember is...

I have an image of being
on top of her

with my hands round her throat.

I have an image of standing up,

I have an image of picking
the hammer up off the table.

Do you recall striking her with it?

I can remember hitting her once
in the face with the hammer.

Though we know it was three times,
it will be suggested,

no doubt, that when you struck her,

you wanted to kill her -
is that what you were thinking?

I don't remember,

I don't remember thinking anything.

Did you have any thoughts of trying
to run away or get away?

No.

Or blame someone else
or pretend it wasn't you

in any way, shape or form?
No.

I just want you to reflect
for a moment.

Helen was the lady who only three
months previously you had married.

Was there anything within you that
wanted her to be harmed at all?

I can't ever remember
wanting to hurt her.

Have you tried to understand
what happened that day?

I don't understand it at all.

It's all I've been able to think
about for about six months now.

It's the first thing I think about
when I wake up in the morning,

it's the last thing I think about
when I go to sleep.

I wake up every night
thinking about it,

and I think about it all day.
I don't...

I don't understand what happened.

I never would have believed that
I was capable of doing this,

least of all to the woman I loved.

HE SOBS

Sorry.

We're going to have a break,
that's quite obvious.

HE SOBS

Och. Jesus.

Now, that was intense, wasn't it?

It was, mate, weren't it?

I feel really sorry for him.
Yeah.

Well, they're both victims...
They're both victims in their own...

..of each other. Yeah.
Of each other, ain't they?

It's a classic toxic relationship,
isn't it?

It seems to me like
it's loss of control.

Was he so blinded he could've
actually not realised

what he was doing?

This is a man that is totally
out of character,

getting a hammer
and smashing someone's head in.

I can see so much remorse there,
proper raw emotion. Yeah.

I was trying not to cry.

I found it really upsetting.

Well, that's the first time
we've had that kind of emotion.

It made me feel like he's
really not a bad person.

MULTIPLE VOICES: Yeah.

The whole jury, they're
kind of being swayed.

He had an unconditional love
for her. He did.

Liking John shouldn't really
have much weight on it.

His character is not really that
relevant to the crime he did.

I think the reason why I can relate
to him so much

is because I love how he loves.

Yeah, you love hard.

I don't love enough to kill,
but I love how he loves.

Do you know what I'm saying?
I hear you.

Luckily, none of us have got
to that point,

but unfortunately, he has.

I just think he wanted
to shut her up out of frustration.

He just took it too far.

I think he was really angry
and he wanted to hurt her badly,

but I don't think he wanted
to kill her.

The fact is,
he brutally murdered his wife.

So, after today,
is everybody manslaughter?

MULTIPLE VOICES: Yeah.

I feel like I've been trying to tell
everyone not to be so judgmental,

and appeal to your human side
a little bit more.

To have people finally in my corner,

it feels good to be right.

The whole room going against you
is definitely frustrating,

but manslaughter, that isn't
justice for Helen, for me.

He's had plates hurled at him,

and that caused him
to be very frightened.

That's why I can understand
the pushing and the strangling,

I totally understand that.

But what I can't get around my head,

the fact that he got up,
why pick up the hammer?

There were so many other things
he could've picked up,

why that? Because he wanted...

Because, obviously, you hit
something with a hammer,

that's a natural thing,
you just pick it up.

Yeah, but not a head.
That's different.

Yeah, but the overkill suggests
to me the loss of control.

I can't see that.

I can't see that bit,
I can't see that.

Surely, he just lost control, right?

And I just don't understand
why people can't see it.

If you can prove that moment
and that loss of control,

then everything else is
the context around it.

That's the key bit.

We have to get that right,
cos if we don't get that right,

we'll make the wrong decision.

I feel sorry for the guy.
Really? Really sorry.

Everybody's got their own opinions,

but I've been on the fence.

The thing I find fascinating is,

it's not a cold cut between murder
and manslaughter.

Eight years ago my wife
and I had an argument.

My wife lost it.

On my wrist I've got two tattoos.

One says Amanda,
which is my wife's name,

and the second one is "Smelly,"
which is my wife's nickname.

We went to Soho one day,

had two drinks and then three,

and next door was a tattoo parlour.

For Gary, Helen's behaviour
has reminded him of his own.

I've been a difficult partner.

Going back probably about
four, five years,

I used to be like Helen.

I used to cause an argument
just for the sake of it,

but you can only push people
so far before they break.

Do you want a drink, darling?

Yes, thank you very much.

We'd had a bad argument,

and he had pushed
an awful lot of buttons.

I was a right dickhead.

I really was. I was horrible to you.
Yeah, you was.

There's no getting around it.

I got in the car and I thought,
"F you."

My focus was on,
"I'm just going to hit you."

I just remember that you've hit
the bonnet of the car.

I just stopped and got out the car

and you were laying on that floor
with your foot all mangled

and your leg all in
the wrong direction,

and the emotions
just fell out of me.

I've... I just...

I've pushed...
You're shaking.

I know, it's the emotion coming out.

Like you say, we don't talk about
that very often.

You're shaking, bloody hell.

It's something about it.

But I just stepped out of myself

and it just wasn't me doing these
things as such,

so I...

I think you get to
a point where you're so angry,

so frustrated,

everything just sort of stops
and goes probably in slow motion.

And then all the sudden,
reality hits back again

and you're back in the room and,

"Oh, my God, what have I done?"
and that's...

That's the first time you've
said that... Yeah. ..to me.

And I realised how easy it is
to just explode,

snap,

and within seconds it could have
been a totally different story.

You were the John
and I was the Helen.

But, then again,

I wasn't there when John did it

and I wasn't in John's mind,

so I can't say if he was in control

or wasn't in control
when he killed her.

It's that doubt.

You have to wait for
all the evidence.

GLASSES CLINK

Cheers.
Cheers, darling.

The jury room is quite tense
right now because

there is definitely an opportunity
for this to go the wrong way.

If I feel passionately
about something,

I will fight for it
and I will fight hard.

And if I feel that that his sentence
should be based on manslaughter

and not murder,
I'm going to fight for that...

..which means it's going
to get lively.

You chose to use this hammer.

Yes.

The prosecution
cross-examines John...

You remember hitting her?

I don't understand what happened.

But you do remember hitting her?

There's too many blanks,

because he's just like,
"I don't remember."

I don't trust anything!

We have come to the crucial part,

and I'm afraid you do have to
answer these questions.