All language subtitles for Helter.Skelter.S01E02.Seed.720p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP5.1.H.264-NTG

- Through the ages,
philosophers and theologians

have debated the nature of evil.

Is it a physical force?

Can it be measured, understood,
predicted, or altered?

Is evil a cause
and effect or is it

simply the absence of good?

On this broadcast,
we come face to face

with a man that
many say inspired

and committed the
crime of the century.

His name is Charles Manson.

- Benwood-McMechen sits
right along the Ohio River.

It's one of those
places where you were

a coal miner, a railroad
worker or a steel worker

and everybody seemed
to get along real well.

It was one of those situations

where you didn't
lock your house.

There was a lotta camaraderie
there and it was very cordial.

- McMechan, West Virginia.

It's one the many little
mill and mining towns

that cling to hills
along the Ohio River.

- McMechen was a
small, small town.

Everybody knew everybody,
everybody's mother knew you.

Charles, he was a first grader

and he came to live
with his grandmother.

- Most people here
don't remember Charles Manson,

but this was the
closest thing he had

to a hometown when
he was growing up.

He lived with an aunt
and uncle in this house.

School records in McMechen show

Manson was an average student

in the second, third,
and fourth grades.

- This area of Benwood-McMechen
was quite unique.

There was five grocery stores

and there were four churches

and 32 bars.

But it was a nice
town to grow up in.

You got a milk man
delivered your milk

and the grocery store
delivered your groceries.

But it was a,

it was a good community.

In no way did it reflect

the

outcome of a person
like Charles Manson.

Of course, we didn't
know then who he was

nor did we know what
he would become.

- I'd have to say

when a child is treated the
way he was, you're doomed.

I don't think you
stand much of a chance.

I mean, he could've
gone a different way.

I don't know, I guess the
cards didn't fall that way.

But he wasn't what I
would call a bad person.

He was a person who might
have tried to be better.

But it was hard.

They went to church here
at the Nazarene Church

here in McMechen, which
is a small church.

And I was friends with his
aunt and uncle and grandmother.

His uncle's name was
Bill, his aunt was Glenna,

and they all worked for the B&O,

which was a very
good job to have.

It was really the
highest paid in the city.

They were nice people,
they really were,

A lot of very talented musically

and Mrs. Maddox, that's
Charles' grandmother,

who was just a wonderful,
wonderful woman.

I mean, I can't imagine anyone
who didn't really love her.

She was such a sweet,
good person, yeah.

- My grandma was a mountain girl

from Kentucky, up
in the mountains,

and she never did drink
or smoke or cuss or lie.

She used to cook for
the Salvation Army

and she was a human being.

A good one.

- She lived her faith

and she kinda led people
to her way of thinking,

which was a good way of
thinking, but I don't know

if Charles' mother
wanted to adhere to that.

She seemed to love a good time,

a little bit of
partying, and there was,

there was mention of
that from time to time.

- The Nazarene
Church had several

edicts for his young people.

You had to
go to church every Sunday,

you had to obey your parents,

no going to the movies,
no sinful dancing.

And above all, you could
not become over familiar

with members of
the opposite sex.

There was a lot of rebellion,

as there always has
been with young people

growing up under
fundamentalist church rules,

but Charlie's mother Kathleen
was really the exception

in that she would actually
dare to put up her hair,

sneak into a short dress that
might leave her arms bare,

which was just a carnal
act, and go out to dance.

But Ashland was too small.

If you tried to
dance or if you even

smiled at a boy, mama
would hear about it.

So, she would sneak
across the river

to try to get away
from her mother

and just have what
she considered
innocent fun, dancing.

Once she came back home
pregnant, she was pretty much

held up as an example
to the other kids.

"See? You don't
follow the rules,

"this is gonna happen to you."

Charles Manson was not,
as he likes to claim,

an illegitimate baby
who was known as No Name

because there was some doubt
as to who was his father.

It was always known that
his biological father

was a man named Colonel Scott.

Not a military man, an
older man, a married man

who'd pretty much
seduced Charlie's

teenage mother at a dance hall.

We don't know much
about William Manson,

but he was somebody
that apparently

had also met Kathleen
at the dance halls.

He married her and he went
into the marriage well aware

that his wife was pregnant
with another man's child.

Ultimately, he was named Charles
Milles Manson in honor of

his deceased grandfather,
Charles Milles Maddox.

For Manson, as a child,
he was never living

in any one place for too long.

His mother moved
too much for that.

For the first four and a
half years of his life,

Charlie mostly lived in a
series of homes and apartments

stretching from Cincinnati
in Ohio all the way

to McMechen with Ashland,
Kentucky in between.

And when his Uncle
Bill and Aunt Glenna

lived in Charleston,
West Virginia,

sometimes Charlie and his
mother would live with them.

So, it was pretty
much a move around

life for the little boy.

The constant in it,
besides his mother,

was his grandmother, who
would always be nearby.

- Most of us work
hard to provide our homes

with every possible
comfort for our children.

We safeguard their health,
we strive to put before them

good examples of moral living,
of manners and deportment.

- Charlie's grandmother
believed that

if she did not bring her
children up in the right way,

they were not only going to
hell, but she would, too,

because she would've
let down the Lord.

Particularly because
her husband had died,

she was worried about her
two youngest children,

Luther and Kathleen, who
she believed were growing up

without a father's influence
and therefore had tendencies.

The last game is over,
the last movie out.

The American citizen has a
final alterative to home.

In another currently
flourishing institution.
The night club.

- During the first few
years of Charlie's life,

even when Kathleen
was still married,

she began going out with her
brother Luther and his friends

and she was not
behaving in the way that

a mother with a child
was supposed to behave.

Her marriage to
William Manson didn't

last that long, about
two and a half years.

He left her and cited that
Kathleen was unfaithful,

she was gone most of the time,

and he made very clear
in the divorce decree

that there had been no
issue from their marriage,

meaning that he said in court
Charlie was not his child.

That meant he didn't have
to pay child support.

When you were a boy,

did you love your mother?

- I didn't know what that was.

- When Charlie was about
four and a half years old,

Kathleen and her brother
Luther got a little bit wilder.

The night came when Kathleen
and Luther's girlfriend, Julia,

decided to go out on
the town a little bit.

The ladies go out to a club
and there they meet a gentleman

and decided this guy had money
and they wanted some of it.

They went to a phone
and called up Luther.

Luther told them, "Get
the guy in his car

"and drive to this filling
station on the edge of town.

"I will be waiting there."

Luther shows up, he
has in his possession

a ketchup bottle
filled with salt,

which he tries to stick
in the guy's back and say,

"This is a gun, I've
got you covered..

"Give me your money."

And the guy said, "It's a
bottle, it's not a gun."

At which point, Luther walloped
him over the head with it

and they grabbed
the guy's wallet,

found they'd made about
20 bucks in the deal,

and drove off in his stolen car.

The local papers think
it's the funniest thing

they've ever had to write about

and they start writing about
the Ketchup Bottle Bandits.

Because Luther
assaulted the man,

hit him over the head
with a ketchup bottle,

he gets 10 years in the
Moundsville State Prison.

Kathleen got five years.

And they are sent off
to one of the most

draconian prisons in the
entire United States.

And there's little four and
a half year old Charlie.

What's to become of him?

- We know that Charlie
is not quite five years old

when his mother went to
prison and the decision

Where is he gonna live?

And because the jail
in Moundsville was
so close to McMechen

where his uncle and aunt and
their daughter, Joanne, lived,

the decision was made
that Charlie would

live permanently
in McMechen during

the five years of his
mother's prison term

and they could see where
he went from there.

Almost as soon as
Charlie is there,

and he's had some explanation
from his grandmother,

"Mama made a mistake, she's
gonna be living in a place

"for a few years but you're
gonna see her all the time,"

Uncle Bill, a stern
disciplinarian

who believed that little
boys, even if they're

just four or four and
a half, do not cry,

they do not whimper,
they are tough,

took the child to Moundsville.

- It's been
said that if Charles Manson

has any roots at all, they
are in the penal system...

- Well, one of
my first recollections

is walking in
Moundsville State Prison

in West Virginia,
big gray stone place.

And I come to visit
my mom, she was

doin' time there for
strong arm robbery.

- The prison in Moundsville

is one of the most
intimidating places possible.

It looks like some
old medieval castle.

The walls were between
8 to 12 feet thick.

It was meant to be intimidating.

Every type of prisoner
was in Moundsville.

You had the people like
Luther and Kathleen

who were there because
they were too dumb

to carry out any
kind of decent crime

all the way up to the
worst kinds of criminals,

multiple murderers, rapists.

The major attraction of the
prison were the hangings.

There was standing room
only for the hangings.

It was a bleak, horrible place

and not just for the inmates

but for family who would
wanna go visit them

because they'd sorta be forced

into narrow little
viewing rooms.

When you saw your relative
who was an inmate,

you didn't sit across the table,

you could never touch anyone.

There was a thick
glass partition

and you had to sit on
one side and not move

and the prisoner was
on the other side.

So, it was a horrible
experience for everyone

and it was meant to be.

There's his mother on the
other side of the glass.

He can't touch her,
she can't hug him,

and for the entire sentence,

she is never allowed
to touch her son.

And Charlie screams and he
acts girly and like a sissy

and Uncle Bill is disgusted
and drags him off.

But, on a regular
basis, never wanting

to go because the
place was so awful,

little Charlie Manson would be

taken to see his
mother in that prison.

And every time, he had
a terrible reaction.

He never got used to
it, but then, who would?

- Are there happy memories?

- I don't have that.

- Or sad
memories, though, growing up?

- I don't have all that.

- You do have it.

You have an experience,
you're an individual,

one human being,
with experiences.

- When you
leave, go get a big rock

and set it on a table. - Yeah.

- I'm that rock on the table.

- Meaning what?
- I don't have

all those things.
- But you do have

all those things. - No, no.

You do and you think that
I do because you think that

my mind is like your
mind, but it isn't.

- I don't think he was
evil at the beginning.

I didn't see any signs
that Charles would've

turned into the kind
of person he ended up.

You know, it's strange
what can change your life

because he did have a hard life

as a child

and she wasn't a good mother

and it never got better.

It was never gonna get better.

- Uncle Bill drank too much

and he was very short tempered.

And Charlie was a very
disagreeable child.

Wherever he lived, he
woulda been a problem

because he whined most of
the time, he complained.

He would just fib
incessantly about everything.

And the first grade teacher
whose class Charlie ended up in

was known as a
really mean woman.

Even her own colleagues,
the other teachers,

thought she was really
rough on the kids.

- I would never want one of my
children to be in her class.

I mean, the way
she ran her class

was the way you
would run a prison.

In her class, you
were placed with

what she deemed
your intelligence.

So, she would place people
together, the dumb-dumbs

and the smart kids and
the ones in the middle,

and Charles was placed
in the back of the room.

You know, this was so
crazy for first graders

because I vision a
teacher like I had

who just showed they loved
us and this was so crazy.

Didn't anybody ever
check on these people?

- On the first day of school,

he came home sobbing
saying the teacher

had said such mean
things to him.

And very likely, she did.

I talked to other
people at McMechen

who had been in her
classes and they all agreed

that she was one of
those nasty teachers

who couldn't stand little
boys in particular.

- And I
can understand why
he went home crying

because it was really
horrible for him.

And

I just think he wasn't
given much of a chance.

- Uncle Bill was horrified,

but not that the teacher
had been harsh with Charlie.

In those days, it
was always assumed

if the teacher got mad at a
child, the child deserved it.

What Uncle Bill couldn't stand

was that this five
year old boy cried

and acted like a sissy,
he acted like a girl.

And Joanne can remember her
father coming into her room

and rustling among her clothes
and coming out with a dress.

Charlie Manson told all kinds
of lies about his childhood.

This story he didn't need
to make up or embellish.

This is the one
that was bad enough.

Yes, he was sent to
school in a dress

as a five year old by his uncle.

All fathers in McMechen
were rough on their sons.

Bill wasn't Charlie's
father but he

took his responsibility
for him very seriously.

Forever after that, Charlie did

just the worst things
you could imagine.

And it was almost as though
he liked getting in trouble.

The second time I sat
down with Joanne to talk,

she said that when Charles
was in second grade,

there was a boy in his
class he didn't like.

And one day at
recess, all the girls

went over as a gang
and beat up the boy.

And when they were brought
into the principal's office,

they said they did it because

Charles Manson
had asked them to.

And Charles said,

"I never touched that boy.

"Those girls were just doing
what they wanted to do.

"They oughta be in
trouble, not me."

- The Nazarene Church

believes strongly in prayer.

And there was Sunday
school for the young people

and the pastor taught the
class and Charles came.

- By God and
they get saved by the flame.

Thank you, Jesus...

- Charlie Manson is a sponge.

There is nothing
unique about Manson,

any of his philosophies, any
of the things he preaches.

What he would do is he
would cherry pick lines

that would help him appear
to have a philosophy

and it starts with the Bible

that he learns in the
Church of the Nazarene.

Manson was taken from the
beginning by the teachings

that he heard every
day based on the Bible

that women were
subservient to men,

that the wife is
ruled by the husband.

Yes, Jesus was born of a virgin.

Yes, the devil is here
every day in our lives.

And most of all, you better
believe the Book of Revelation.

He's hearing this every
Sunday, over and over again.

And Charles Manson will
never be well educated,

he's never gonna be
able to read very well,

but there is a gift that Charlie
Manson has from childhood.

He has an incredible memory.

The Bible, song
lyrics, everything.

And as an adult, he
will be able to quote,

particularly from the
Book of Revelation,

and they're word
for word perfect.

- I understand when
he quotes the Bible

where that's coming from.

That's coming from grandma.

I think that's
where he gets that.

And he can do it.

- The Bible, the
Bible, the Bible

is being pounded into
this child's head

and as an adult, he can
cherry pick the best phrases,

remember them, and at
the appropriate time,

present them almost
as his own thoughts.

Young Charlie Manson in McMechen

is remembered mostly
for horrible behavior,

but there was always
this other part

of Charlie that people
would remark on.

His Aunt and Uncle had a beat up

old upright piano in their home

and from the time Charlie
is seven, eight years old,

he sits at the piano and
tries to pick out tunes on it.

Much more so than the other
young kids in McMechen,

he was already picking up on

what passed for the
popular music of the day.

- Where did
Charlie Manson come from?

What are your earliest memories?

- I come from
the heart of Bing Crosby,

Frank Sinatra.
- Those were the people that

you listened to as a child?
- Yeah.

- He didn't have a
wonderful singing voice

but he had a reasonably
pleasant one.

He would have to be physically
dragged to church on Sundays

but when hymns were
sung, he'd brighten up

and he'd try his best to sing.

- He wasn't attentive, I can
tell ya he wasn't attentive

in Sunday school,
his mind wandered,

I mean, he just wasn't,
but he still came.

And Glenna and Bill
Thomas were very musical

and Mrs. Maddox,
Charles' grandmother,

she also had a
great singing voice.

They were all very musical.

- One of Charlie's
stated ambitions early

was he wanted to be a singer
just like Frankie Lane.

And because he did
have, apparently,

some musical and vocal talent,

people thought, "Hm,
that might happen."

The one job nobody at
Moundsville Prison wanted

was to be assigned to
the janitorial staff.

There's vomit, there's blood,

there's urine all
over the floors.

The janitors were constantly
having to clean up.

Kathleen was so determined
she wanted to get outta prison

that she did everything
she was asked to do

and did them so
well, she's paroled

three years into her
five year sentence.

And yet, this isn't
any kind of fairy tale.

When she gets out of prison,
she stays briefly in McMechen.

She's got her little boy
back, but there's still

the influence of her
mother who she thinks is

just gonna grind her down
like she did the first time.

This is
now just a 19 to 20 year old.

She still wants to go
out and enjoy herself.

And so, they move to other
little towns in the area

and Kathleen gets a job as
a clerk in a grocery store.

Doesn't make much
money, but it's a job.

She's trying to be a good mom,

she's sending her son to school,

except he won't go to school.

She can take him there,
walk him to class,

but then she has to go work

and the minute she
does, he disappears.

The truant officers are
showing up at her door.

"Your son ran away
from school again."

Sometimes, to her
amazement, he'll show up at

her grocery store while she's
working, during the day,

and he will be begging
customers for handouts.

It's a sad, sad situation.

- School records in McMechen

show Manson was
an average student

in the second, third,
and fourth grades.

Then he went to live
again with his mother.

In this neighborhood
in Indianapolis,

he had his first
brush with the law

for stealing a bicycle
and then a car.

- Kathleen decides she
has to do something.

And so, she takes a
very difficult step.

Kathleen had read about the
Gibault School for Boys.

This was an open campus,

there weren't prison
walls or anything.

You know, it was
stricter, but it would be

something where Charlie
would have to behave.

This was not his mother turning
him in to the authorities,

as he would always claim it is.

But unfortunately, this
is just the first step

in what's gonna be
a series of places

Charlie Manson is
going to be placed.

He ran away soon after,
came home to mom.

"I trust you, you're my mother.

"How can you do this to me?"

To make her feel guilty.

- That always was utmost
in my mind, you know,

the fact that he did
try to escape there

and his mother would
take him right back.

Which had to be so painful.

In my eyes, that's very painful.

I can't imagine it.

And I always felt that
just a little bitta help,

a little bitta love mighta made

a big difference in his life.

I really do.

It's cruel.

And I think that was the
beginning of the end.

- The things he did,
which soon began to

involve first petty
theft, then he would

break away and go
into armed theft.

He went to a series
of different places,

more and more up the
ladder, so to speak,

into full time detention.

He was once lucky enough
to get sent to Boys Town,

convincing a judge in
Indianapolis when he was 12

that, "Hey, I'm a Catholic."

Even though he wasn't.

And he's sent to
Boys Town, one of

the most famous places
in all of America.

There's movies that are
being made about this.

He lasts four days and he
and some of the other boys

steal a car belonging to
a priest and head out.

As with Kathleen,
he's very inept

at trying to elude the law.

He's caught, he goes back.

But nothing was
ever Charlie's fault

as far as Manson was concerned.

- He was sent
to the Indiana Boys School,

the state reform school.

He wouldn't conform to the rules

and was moved from one
dormitory to another.

Manson compiled 28 bad
conduct reports in two years.

- He was a, as I described
him perhaps 20 years ago,

a chronic discipline
problem even at that time.

- How was he regarded
by the other boys?

- The other students
seemed to regard him

as a boy they liked
to mingle with.

Manson seemed to have a
lot of stories to tell

that was of interest
to the other boys.

- The file on
Manson at the reform school

shows he escaped five times.

There are letters there from
his aunt and grandmother

in which they write
of their love for him

and their hopes that
he would do better.

- The consensus
was he was self-centered,

generally lazy, cooperated
only under pressure,

and had little influence
on other people

for either good or bad.

- You have said before

that you needed love
and you needed family

and you needed friends
and that's the one thing

that every man needs. - No.

You misunderstood, I never
said anything like that.

- Do you wanna look back

at that early period
of your life and say,

"Boy, something went wrong
when I went to foster homes

"and then my mother
would take me,

"then I'd go see my grandmother,

"then I'd go back
and see my mother"?

Did that shape you, did
it make a difference?

- Well see, that
doesn't even compute in my world

because there is no wrong.

- Do you need to be loved?

- I am loved.
- By whom?

- I am love.
- You're, are you loved?

- I am love!

- In the tougher reform schools,

it is absolutely true
that Charlie Manson,

one of the smaller, weaker
boys is certainly picked on,

he certainly suffers
physical indignities

and we can be fairly
well assured he is
sexually assaulted.

Manson recognizes early on

that it's just human
nature to back away

from someone who's
an absolute lunatic.

He studies, he thinks,
and he perfects the act.

If someone bigger, scarier
is approaching him,

he will act so insane, so
violently out of control that

even the worst bullies will
back off and leave him alone.

He calls it being Crazy
Charlie and he will

use this again throughout
his adult life.

- We all do what we
have to do to survive, right?

It's like a long time
ago, back in the '50s

when I was in reform school,
I would get in a fight

or I'd get in a
argument and I'd be down

in solitary confinement
and I'd just go

and I turned everything
off a long time ago.

- And yet, from
these experiences,

Charles doesn't abhor the
terrible things done to him.

Rather, he wants to
do them to other boys.

In one instance,
he's found sodomizing

another younger boy
while holding a piece of

broken glass to his throat,
threatening to kill him.

When he would be asked
about having been raped

as a child in
school, Charlie said,

"So what?

"It's just like if it
happens, you wipe it off."

Manson finally ended up
in a maximum security

detention facility
in Chillicothe.

This was the place
that kids were sent

when they were so bad
there was no other place

for them to go until
they turned 21.

There were kids in there who
had committed murder already.

What he did is
completely unparalleled

in the rest of his life.

This time, for months,
he is the model inmate.

Follows every rule,
tries hard in school.

And there's the innate belief
that every once in awhile,

there has to be some kid
that we've really helped.

Maybe this is a success story.

And at this facility,
there was the honor award

that you have
completely overcome

all the terrible things
that brought you here.

And it wasn't given out often,

but it was given out to
Charles Milles Manson.

Charlie had conned the people

who were certain no kid
could ever fool them.

And so, miraculously,
there it is,

Charlie Manson has
completely turned a new leaf

and he's gonna be
a model citizen.

- When he was released,

he went back to McMechen,
worked at a few odd jobs,

and a few months later,
he was married here

and they moved into a
house across the street.

- Well, a lot of
people didn't know

Charlie Manson even
lived around here.

You know, they, he was
virtually friendless.

He was sorta the,
the type of person,

was like a school kid who wore

a raincoat to school
on a sunny day.

I mean, he just, no one
jumped to be around him.

He was very low key.

- He wasn't outgoing, no,

and no one seemed
to make an effort to

seek Charles out or
introduce themselves.

He was a, a kind of a cocky,

let's start a fight type of guy

and a blowhard and
that kind of a person.

I didn't know that side of him.

We enjoyed his company,
my cousin Barbara

and I both enjoyed
his company and

Charles

might have been a little shy.

And very attractive,
had a dimple,

had curly black hair, and
he had beautiful eyes.

- 50 years later,
people will tell you,

"Well you just
know in every town

"there's a good girl who
can't resist a bad boy."

- What about your wife?

You were married
once, weren't you?

- Yes.
- How'd that go?

Why'd you wanna get married?

That's kinda convention,
that's kinda normal,

that's kind of in the...

- Got married 'cause I wanted to

get in that pussy,
that's why I got...

- Oh yeah?
- Married.

- Married for sex

was the reason you got married.

- Yeah, that's what,

I didn't know what
was happenin'.

I knew there was
somethin' happening

but no one would tell
me, so I had to find out.

You know, I didn't have
books like you guys,

Playboys and stuff,
in them days.

Had to find out for myself.

- Charlie's grandmother
throws a lovely party

for them, a reception, after
the wedding in her house.

We have pictures.

- Rosalie worked at
Warsinsky's Grocery.

I thought she was rather quiet

and kinda reserved,
not outgoing so much.

I kept it to myself,
but I thought

she was very attractive and

I wouldn't mind having
her for a girlfriend.

She was very pleasant,
cordial, a very nice person.

I had seen her across the
street standin' with Charlie

and that kinda bursted
my bubble a little bit

because I thought he
was relatively quiet

and if you asked him a
question, you didn't expect

to get much more than
a yes or no answer.

But he just seemed to come in
and sweep Rosalie off her feet

and that's the last I heard
of Rosalie at the store.

- The reception was
at Glenna's home

and my mother, dad, and I
went there for the reception.

It was small but
it was a nice time.

But the one thing that
I noticed that night:

I have never seen him
that happy in my life.

- For married
couples, the way you

passed the time of
day in the evening

was to sit out on
the front stoop

and as your neighbors walked by,

you'd chat and you'd
pass the time of day.

And suddenly, there's Charlie
Manson trying to do this.

- I first met Charlie Manson,

my first experience,
personal experience, was

I was on my way to
baseball practice

and the coach's wife
asked Charlie to drive us

down to the ball field,
so we climbed into

the back seat of his
Freddie Flintstone car.

He took us to the game,
didn't say a word,

and when we got
out, we thanked him

and he just looked straight
ahead and continued on.

He said nothing, just drove off.

That was Charlie.

- And it only lasts a few
months, then Rosalie's pregnant.

And there's medical bills.

And Charlie gets a
second job helpin' out

at a local store but there's
still not enough money.

And Charlie starts
stealin' cars.

And he subsidizes for a few
months, but it's not workin'.

Kathleen, with
her husband Lewis,

has moved out to California.

And so, Charlie
suggests to Rosalie

they go out there,
it'll be better there.

And so, he leaves McMechen
with a pregnant child bride

in a car he stole
to go to California

where he is sure he will
somehow become a huge success.

- See, my old lady, she said,

"Let's steal a car
and go to California."

And I said, "Man, I
ain't gonna steal no car

"and go to California
and go back to jail."

She says, "We won't get caught."

We didn't get caught,
just I got caught.

- You had a son
by that marriage, didn't you?

- Yeah, I got a kid somewhere.

- You think about him?

- About as much
as my father did me.

- Manson's wife had a baby

but before it was
born, he was in trouble

with the law again, arrested for

driving a stolen
car to California.

- As was his mother,
he is one of the most

incompetent criminals
that ever stole stuff

in the history of the
United States of America.

He steals a car to
get to Los Angeles

but instead of ditching
the car, he starts

driving around LA,
seeing the sights.

These are in the days
when cops will mark down

out of state license plates
and just run casual checks.

- These observations can give

a definite indication that
the vehicle may be stolen,

even before a thorough
inspection is made

or the subject's questioned.

- And, of course, the
car comes back as stolen.

That starts Charlie's
downfall, legally.

He would do these extra things
that he didn't have to do

and I have talked
to psychologists

who study criminal behavior
and they will say to me,

"This is proof that, deep down,

"he always wanted to be in
prison, he felt safe there,

"he's subconsciously
doing these dumb things

"just so he will get back to
where he really feels secure."

- I got it.

- Tell me, for instance,

what did you guys do for sex?

- Well, there is
young boys around

and you can always
give 'em a few

packs of cigarettes
to do what you want.

- How do you do
that after you're locked down?

- Well, you can shower time or

when they have a yard
night or something,

there's places around here
you can go to, of course.

They call 'em spots, yeah.

Things like that.

It's no problem, old man.

- Charlie Manson's life and the
terrible crimes he committed

all happened because
he's the wrong man

in the right place
at the right time.

And nowhere is this
more true than when

he is first sent to
prison at Terminal Island.

The last few years
before Charles Manson

enters the adult criminal
system for the first time,

the philosophy of the American
criminal system changes.

- What are prisons for?

When you think about it,
there are just a limited

number of things a penal
system can be asked to do.

In the first place,
it can be asked

to punish those who
break the rules.

But most civilized
societies have not

been content with
the punishment.

They want the punishment
to have a purpose.

- You're in prison.

And maybe one of the
reasons you are here

is that there was
no place for you

in a society demanding
skills and education.

California spends more
than any other state

on educating and
training prisoners.

If you don't have a
high school education,

you're encouraged to get one
and you can learn a trade.

- Now we have a
whole new philosophy.

We've gotta work
with these people

so that they won't
have to turn to crime,

so they'll have skills that will

let them function in
the regular world.

- You in California
here are so fortunate

that you don't
quite realize that

40-odd other states
are far behind you

and that the jails and prisons
in most of these states

are filthy and
dehumanizing machinery,

that they ruin the
people that go into them

and that they harm
all the people outside

who think that the machine is
doing something constructive

to the individual who
is ground up in it.

- So, Charlie goes to prison
where, a couple years before,

it woulda been like his mother's
experience in Moundsville

where the foot's in
the back of your neck

and you will do what
you're told or else.

Now we're going to help
you grow as a person.

And one of the ways
American prisons did this:

Dale Carnegie's How to Win
Friends and Influence People

is sweeping the nation.
- Hello, everybody.

You know the happiness
you get out of life

and, to a large extent,
the size of your income

will depend very largely
upon your ability

to win friends and
influence people.

- Dale Carnegie is a
salesman who was brilliant

at putting together the kinda
tips he learned on the road

that would help you if you
wanted to sell people something,

if you wanted
people to like you,

little tricks you could play.

And there's courses
you would sign up for

and all the prisoners at
Terminal Island in California,

boy, they wanna get in on this.

- Be sincere.

You will just be
wasting your time

if you pretend to be
interested in other people

in order to get
something out of them.

- Sincerity is the
best gimmick, remember that.

"Sincerity and
honesty," he said,

"It'll trick 'em every time."

I said, "Well,
sincere and honesty,

"I never tried that."

- A good smile has

the same effect
as a puppy's tail.

When a puppy wags his tail, he
says, "I'm glad to see you."

And a smile says the same thing.

- Charlie eats up
the Dale Carnegie course.

- Charlie was takin' the course,

Dale Carnegie's How to Win
Friends and Influence People.

Very strange.

- And within four small
months after signing up

for the Dale Carnegie course,
I received a promotion

and 12 months after
that, I was promoted to

zone sales manager of the
Burroughs Corporation.

- So, I mean,
that's probably where he got

a lot of his ideas that
he transformed 'em into

his own way of applying what
he had learned in that course.

- Now, this is the guy who
supposedly can hardly read.

But his retention,
when he wants to

remember something, is perfect.

Charlie, in particular,
has a couple

special things that
resonate with him.

But he doesn't complete the
course because he felt like

he had learned what there
was for him to learn.

The best way to avoid

an argument is not
to get into one.

- I was walkin' in
the yard and there was

this guy playin' a guitar
and a cop came by and said,

"Manson, you can't
play your guitar here.

"You gotta play your
guitar over there."

And Charlie just kept
playin' his guitar

and the cop just
stopped and said,

"Manson, you ain't never
gonna get outta here."

Charlie never missed a beat.

He said, "Outta where, man?"

And just kept goin'.

And that was it, that was my
first day with Charles Manson.

- That's the first
thing, don't give 'em anything

to tear into, and
most importantly,

always let the other fellow
think that the idea is his.

- Charlie directed
mental traffic.

He wanted to do something
and he'd jump ahead to one of

the girls and one of the girls'd
say, "I got a good idea."

Charlie had planted a seed.

And off they went,
doing his way.

- Manson's incredible powers

that you hear people
talk about all the time,

the charisma, the
ability not only

to read minds but
make people trust him,

straight outta Dale Carnegie's

How to Win Friends
and Influence People.

Word for word.

Manson, when he gets
outta Terminal Island,

He's
gonna be a world class pimp.

He liked listening to the
pimps at Terminal Island,

they gave him advice on how
to find the right girls.

You wanna find young women

who are bent but not broken,

emotionally distraught but
not completely unhinged.

The second thing you have to do

is you have to make
them depend on you.

You control every
aspect of their lives.

The third thing is you keep
them from outside influences.

Don't let them talk to family,

don't let them talk to friends.

You must be the only person
they have to turn to.

Charlie did not realize
that the biggest challenge

is not to recruit girls
who will work for you

but to recruit women who
would stay working for you.

And he never had a
string of women who could

earn enough money to support
him the way he wanted.

He had to try to subsidize
himself in other ways

that just got him into
further legal trouble.

He was a terrible pimp.

And soon ends up in
jail again, this time at

McNeil Island up near
Seattle in Washington.

In McNeil Island,
Manson is once again

together with the
worst of the worst.

The trait that continues
to distinguish him

from other prisoners
is the fact that

he is so honestly
interested in music.

In one of the great ironies
in American Criminal History,

Alvin Creepy Karpis, one
of the real serious killers

from the Bonny and
Clyde, Dillinger days,

is also incarcerated
in McNeil Island

and he plays steel guitar.

And Charlie sucks
up to Creepy Karpis

and gets guitar
lessons from him.

Karpis, later, when Manson
becomes so infamous,

tells an interviewer, "Boy,

"I didn't know he
had that in him."

In McNeil, a couple
other critical things

happen in Manson's
development as

what we have to call
a genius con artist.

There are, obviously,
in all these prisons

all sorts of religious
outlets made available

to the prisoners with the belief

that God can change
you if man can't.

On one of his reports
from McNeil Island,

it says that for the first time,

Manson appears to be
showing some self awareness

and he credits it to his
study of Scientology.

Scientology has managed
to sort of pick up a niche

and the prison officials,
they may not know

all the details of
Scientology but hey,

it's a religion, it's
recognized as one,

so it must be good,
it's got God in it.

Manson is very interested
in the theory in Scientology

that your body is
simply a vessel that
you're temporarily in

and that greater things
are always possible.

You have the opportunity to
be this great, glorious being

and you've probably
been that before

and it's just a matter
of accepting your nature.

He can understand why
that would be attractive

and that this would be the
kind of psychological tool

he could use to
impress particularly

young women with
bad self images.

"You may think the
situation you're in

"is really awful,
but it's not you.

"It's just such
a temporary thing

"and I'm gonna teach you
how to move beyond it."

- The seed
grows up from the ground.

You go down under the
earth to plant somethin'

and you plant these seeds
and this garden grows.

It's the same thing with the
garden that's in the mind.

- You think
you'll ever leave prison?

- Prison?

I got outta jail.

I'm inside of you, man.

I'm inside every one of ya.

Can't you see I'm out, man?

Can't you see I'm out?

Can't you see I'm free?

Subtitles Diego Moraes(oakislandtk)
www.opensubtitles.org