All language subtitles for Bruce Lee.The Lost Interview.1971.UNCENSORED.

This is the Pierre Berton Show:
Bruce Lee - Mandarin Superstar

Production 1892, and recorded
December 9th 1971

In Hong Kong.

Bruce Lee faces a real dilemma. He's in the
verge of the stardom in the United States,

with the projected TV series on the horizon,
but he's just achieved super stardom

as a film actor here in Hong Kong.

So witch does he choose:
The East or the West?

It's the kind of problem most of
movie actors would welcome.

It's the Pierre Berton Show.

The program that comes to you
from the major capitals of the world.

This edition comes to you
from Hong Kong.

And Pierre's guest is the man who taught
karate, judo and chinese boxing

to James Garner, Steve McQueen,
Lee Marvin and James Coburn.

The newest mandarin superstar.

Known in the West
for his appearances in 'Batman',

the 'Green Hornet',
'Ironside' and 'Longstreet'.

His name is Bruce Lee, and he
doesn't even speak Mandarin.

But here's Pierre.

Well, how can you play in Mandarin movies
if you don't even speak Mandarin?

Well, first of all,
I speak only Cantonese.

So, I mean, there is quite
a difference as pronunciation

and things like that is concerned.

So somebody else's voice
is used right?

Definitely, definitely!!

So you just make the words

doesn't that sound strange
when you go to the movies,

especially in Hong Kong,
in your home town,

and you see yourself
with somebody else's voice?

Well not really, you see, because

most of the mandarin pictures
here are dubbed anyway.

They're dubbed anyway?

Anyway. I mean in this regard,
they shoot without sound.

So it doesn't make any difference.

Your lips never quite make
the right words, do they?

Yeah, well that's where
the difficulty lies, you see.

I mean in order to....the Cantonese have
a different way of saying things.

I mean different from the mandarin.

So I have to find, like,
something similar to that in order

to keep a kind of a feeling
going behind that.

Something, you know,
matching the mandarin deal.

Does it sound complicated?

Just like in the
silent picture days.

I gather that in the
movies made here

the dialogue is pretty
stilted anyway.

Yeah, I agree with you.

I mean, see, to me,
a motion picture is motion.

I mean, you've got to keep
the dialogue down to the minimum.

Did you look at
many Mandarin movies

- before you started playing
in your first one? - Yes.

What did you think of them
when you saw them?

Quality wise, I mean,
I have to admit

that it's not quite up
to the standard.

However, it is growing and it is
getting higher and higher

and going toward that standard
that I would term quality.

They say the secret of your success
in that movie, the 'Big Boss',

that was such a success
here and rocketed you to stardom

in Asia, was that
you did your own fighting.

As an expert in the various
martial arts in China,

what did you think of the fighting
that you saw in the movies

that you studied before
you became a star?

Well, I mean,
definitely in the beginning,

I had no intention whatsoever,
that what I was practicing,

and what I'm still practicing now
would lead to this, to begin with.

But martial art has had a
very, very deep meaning

as far as my life is concerned because,
as an actor, as a martial artist,

as a human being, all these I have
learned from martial art.

Maybe for our audience
who doesn't know what it means,

you might be able to explain what
exactly you mean by martial art?

Right.

Martial art includes all the
combative arts like Karate

- Judo
- ...or Karate, Judo,

Chinese Gung-fu, or Chinese boxing,
whatever you call it.

All those, you see, like, Aikido,
Korean Karate, and on and on and on.

But it's a combative form of fighting.

I mean some of them became sport,
but some of them art still not.

I mean some of them use, for intense,
kicking to the groin,

jabbing fingers to the eyes,
things like that.

No wonder you're successful in it!

The Chinese movies are full of
this kind of action anyway

- they needed a guy like you!
- Violence man!

So you didn't have to use a double

- when you moved into the
motion picture role here. - No.

- You did it all yourself?
- Right.

Can you break five or six pieces
of wood with your hand or foot?

I'd probably break
my hand and foot!

Tell me a little bit

- you set up a school
in Hollywood didn't you? - Yes.

- For people like James Garner,
Steve McQueen and the others. - Yes

Why would they want to
learn Chinese martial art?

Because of a movie role?

Not really. Most of them you see
to me at least, the way that I teach it,...

All types of knowledge ultimately
means self-knowledge.

Therefore, these people are coming in
and asking me to teach them,

not so much how to defend themselves,
or how to do somebody in,

rather, they want to learn to express
themselves through some movement,

be it anger, be it determination
or whatever.

So, in other words,
what I'm saying therefore, is

that they're paying me
to show them, in combative form,

the art of expressing the human body.

Which is acting, in a sense, isn't it?

Well......

Or would be a useful
tool for an actor....

It might sound too philosophical,

but it's unacting acting or acting
unacting....if you know...

You've lost me!

I have huh?

So what I'm saying, actually, you see,
it's a combination of both.

I mean here is natural instinct
and here is control.

You are to combine
the two in harmony.

Not...if you have one to the extreme,
you'll be very unscientific.

If you have another to
the extreme, you become,

all of a sudden, a mechanical man...
no longer a human being.

So it is a successful combination
of both, so therefore,

it's not pure naturalness,
or unnaturalness.

The ideal is unnatural naturalness,
or natural unnaturalness.

Yin/yang, eh?

Right man, that's it.

One of your students, James Coburn,

played in a movie called
'Our Man Flint',

in which he used Karate.

Was that what he learned from you?

He started training with
me after the film. Not

- So he learned after he played
in 'Our Man Flint'. - Right, right.

You see, actually, I do not teach,
you know, Karate,

because I do not believe
in styles anymore.

I mean I do not believe that
there is such thing as,

like, a Chinese way of fighting
or a Japanese way of fighting

or whatever way of fighting,

because unless a human being
has three arms and four legs,

there can be no different form
of fighting.

But, basically, we only have
two hands and two feet.

so styles tend to,
not only separate man

because they have their own
doctrines and the doctrine became

the gospel truth that
you cannot change!

But, if you do not have
styles, if you just say,

'here I am as a human being,

how can I express myself
totally and completely?'

Now that way,
you won't create a style

because style is a crystallization

and that way is a process
of continuing growth.

You talk about Chinese boxing.

How does it defer, from,
say, our kind of boxing?

Well, first we use the foot.

Uh-huh, that's a start.

And then we use the elbow.

Do you use the thumb too?

- You name it man, we use it!
- You use it all?

You have to, you see, because that is
the expression of the human body.

I mean, everything, not just the hand!

When you are talking about combat,
well, if it is a sport

well now your talking about
something else,

with regulations, and rules

but if you're talking about
fighting as it is

- No rules.
- With no rules.

Well then, baby, you'd better
train every part of your body!

And when you do punch...
now I'm leaning forward a little bit

hoping not to hurt
any camera angle.

I mean you've got to put
the whole hip into it,

and snap it! and get
all your energy in there

and make this into a weapon.

I don't want to tangle
with you on any dark night,

I'll tell you that right now!

You came at me pretty fast there!

What is the difference
between Chinese boxing

and what we see these old men doing
at eight o'clock every morning

on the rooftops and he parks
called 'shadowboxing'.

Which they're always doing?

- Well, actually, you see,
that is part of Chinese boxing. - Yes

There are as many schools,
different schools.

Everybody here seems to be going
like this all the time.

Well, that's good.
I mean, I'm very glad,

I'm very glad to see that
because at least

- somebody is caring for
their own bodies, right? - Yes.

I mean that's a good sign.

Well it's kind of a slow form of exercise
which is called tai-chi-chuan...

I'm speaking mandarin just now

in Cantonese: 'Kai-di-kune',

And it's more of an exercise
for the elderly not so much for the young.

Give me a demonstration!

Show me, can you do
a little bit of it?

I mean, hand-wise, it's very slow
and you push it out

but all the time you are
keeping the continuity going

bending, stretching, everything.

You just keep it moving.

- It looks like a ballet dancer there.
- it is.

I mean to them the idea is
'running water never grows stale'.

So you've got to just
keep on flowing.

Of all your students, famous,
James Garner, Steve McQueen,

Lee Marvin, James Coburn,
Roman Polanski, which was the best?

Who adapted best to this oriental
form of exercise and defense?

Well, that depends

as a fighter, Steve..
Steve McQueen.

Now he is good in that
department because,

that son of a gun has got
the toughness in him.

I see it on the screen.

I mean, he would say,
'all right baby, here I am, man',

you know, and he'll do it!

Now James Coburn is
peace-loving man.

I met him.

Right?
I mean, you've met him.

I mean he's really, really nice,
and super mellow, and all that.

- Yes!
- You know what I mean?

Now he appreciates the
philosophical part of it.

Therefore, his understanding of
it is deeper then Steve's.

So it's really hard to say,
you see what I'm saying now?

- I see.
- I mean it's different,

depending on what you see in it.

It's interesting,
we don't in our world,

and haven't since the
days of the Greeks who did,

combined philosophy
and art with sport.

But quite clearly
the oriental attitude is that

the three are facets
of the same thing.

Man, listen you'l see really.

To me, okay? To me ultimately, martial art
means honestly expressing yourself.

Now it is very difficult to do.

I mean it is easy for me
to put on a show

and be cocky and be flooded
with a cocky feeling

and then feel, then,
like pretty cool and all that.

Or I can make all kinds of phony things,
you see what I mean?

And be blinded by it.

Or I can show you some
really fancy movement.

But, to express oneself honestly,
not lying to oneself.

And to express myself honestly,
that, my friend is very hard to do.

And you have to train.

You have to keep your reflexes
so that when you want it's there!

When you want to move,
you are moving.

And when you move
you are determined to move.

Not taking one inch,
not anything less than that!

If I want to punch,
I'm going to do it man,

and I'm going to do it!

So that is the type of thing
you have to train yourself into it.

To become one with it.

- You think...it is.
- This is very un-western, this attitude.

I wanna ask you about
your movie and TV career,

but first we'll take a break

then I'll be back with Bruce Lee.

I've been talking to Bruce lee,

mainly about the
Chinese martial arts

which include things like
Chinese boxing, Karate and Judo,

which is what he taught
when he was in Hollywood

after he left the
university of Washington,

where he studied,
of all things, philosophy,

if you can believe that.

But he did but that,
perhaps you understand

why the two go together from
the first half of this program

and you can perhaps understand
how he got into films,

he knew a lot of actors
but I'm told

that you got the job
on the 'Green Hornet',

where you played
Kato, the chauffeur

mainly because you were
the only Chinese-looking guy

who could pronounce the name of
the leading character, 'Britt Reid'!

I meant that as a joke of course!

And it's a heck of name, man!

I mean every time
I said it at that time

I was super-conscious!

I mean, really now, that's
another interesting thing, huh?

Lets say if you learn
to speak Chinese.

- Yeah? - It's not difficult to
learn and speak the words.

The hard thing,
the difficult thing,

is behind what is the meaning:

What brought on the expression
and feelings behind those words.

Like, when I first arrived
in the United States...

and I looked at a Caucasian,

and I really would not know
whether he was putting me on

or is he really angry?

Because we have different
ways of reacting to it

those are the difficult
things, you see?

it's almost as if you
came upon a strange race

where a smile didn't
mean what it does to us.

In fact, a smile doesn't always
mean the same, does it?

- Of course, not.
- Yeah, I just thought of that.

Tell me about the big break when
you played in 'Longstreet'.

- Ahh, that's it.
- I must tell our audience that

Bruce lee had a bit part,
or a supporting role

in the 'Longstreet' series

and this had an enormous
effect on the audience.

What was it?

Well, you see,

the title of that particular
episode of longstreet

is called
'The Way of the Intercepting Fist'.

Now I think the
successful ingredient

in it was because
I was being Bruce lee.

- Yourself.
- Myself, right.

And did that part, just
expressed myself, like I say,

'honestly expressed myself',
at that time.

And I, because of that, brought,
you know, favorable mentioning in,

like, the New York Times,
which says, like,

'a chinaman who, incidentally,
came off quite convincingly enough

to earn himself a
television series'

and so on and so on
and so forth.

Can you remember the key
lines by Stirling Silliphant?

- The key lines?
- he's one of my students, you know that?

- Was he too?
- Yes.

Everybody's your student!

But you read, there were some key lines
there that expressed your philosophy.

- I don't know if you remember them
or not? - Oh I remember them, I said.

- Let's hear.
- This is what it is, ok?

You're talking to Longstreet
played by James Franciscus.

I said, "empty your mind,
be formless, shapeless, like water.

Now you put water into a cup,
it becomes the cup.

You put water into a bottle,
it becomes the bottle.

You put it in a teapot,
it becomes the teapot.

Now water can flow,
or it can crash!

Be water, my friend"
like that, you see?

Yeah, I see, I get the idea.
I get the power behind it.

So, now, two things
have happened.

First there's a pretty good chance

that you'll get a TV series in the
states called 'The Warrior', isn't it?

What you use what..the martial
arts in a western setting?

Well, that was the original idea.

Now Paramount, you know
I did 'Longstreet' for Paramount,

and Paramount wants me
to be in a television series.

On the other hand, Warner brothers
wants me to be in another one.

But both of them, I think,
they want me to be in a

modernized type of a thing

and they think that
the western idea is out!

- Whereas I want
- You want to do the western!

I want to do the western
because, you see,

I mean, or else can you justify
all of this punching and kicking

and violence except
in the period of the west?

I mean, nowadays, I mean you
don't go around on the street,

kicking people and punching people

because if you do...Pow!
That's it.

- Yeah, a gun.
- I mean, I don't care how good you are.

But this is true also
of the Chinese dramas,

which are mainly costume dramas.

They're all full of blood
and gore over here!

- Oh, you mean here?
- Yeah.

Well, unfortunately, you see,
I hope that the picture I am in

would either explain
why the violence was done

whether right or wrong,
or what not

but, unfortunately, pictures,
most of them here,

are done mainly just
for the sake of violence.

You know what I mean? Like, you know,
guys fighting for 30 minutes,

straight, getting stabbed 50 times!

Well I'm fascinated, here, let me
give you your microphone back.

- I'm fascinated that you came back
- I am a martial artist.

you came back to Hong Kong
on the verge of success in Hollywood

and full of it. And suddenly,
on the strength of one picture

you become a superstar.
Everybody knows you.

You have to change
your phone number.

You get mobbed in the streets.

Now what are you going to do?

Are you going to be able
to live in both worlds?

Are you going to be a superstar
here or one in the States..or both?

Well, let me say this.

First of all, the word 'superstar'
really turns me off

and I'll tell you why.
The word 'star' man, it's an illusion.

It's something what
the public calls you.

you should look upon
oneself as an actor, man.

I mean you would be
very pleased if somebody said

'Hey man, you are a super actor!'

It is much better than, you know,
superstar. Therefore, I

Yes, but you've got to admit
that you are a superstar

if you're going to
give me the truth!

I am now...I am honestly
saying this, okay?

- Yes, I have been very successful, okay?
- Yeah.

But I think the word 'star' is

I mean I do not look
upon myself as a star.

I really don't. I mean believe me,
man, when I say it.

- I mean I'm not saying it because
- What are you going to do?

- Let's get back to the question.
- Okay.

Are you going to stay
in Hong Kong and be famous,

or are you going to go to the
United States and be famous,

or are you going to try to eat
your cake and have it too?

I am going to do both
because, you see,

I have already made up my mind

that, in the United States,
I think something about the oriental,

I mean the true oriental,
should be shown.

Hollywood sure as heck hasn't!

You better believe it man.

I mean it's always that pigtail, bouncing
around, 'chop-chop', you know?

With the eyes slanted and all that.

And I think that's very,
very out of date.

Is it true that the first job
you had was being

- cast as Charlie Chan's 'number one son?'
- Yeah, 'number one son'.

- They never made the movie?
- No, no, no.

They were going to make it into a
new Chinese James bond type of a thing.

Now that, you know,
the old man Chan is dead,

Charlie is dead,
and his son is carrying on.

- Oh I see. But they
didn't do that. - No.

'Batman' came along you see

and then everything started

- to go into that kind of a thing.
- Like the 'Green Hornet'? - Yeah.

Which you were in...but

By the way, I did a really terrible
job in that, I have to say.

- Really? You didn't like
yourself in that? - Oh, no.

I didn't see it.

Let me ask you, however,
about the problems

that you face as a Chinese hero
in an American series.

Have people come up
in the industry and said,

'well we don't know how the audience
are going to take a non-American'?

Well, such a question has
been raised. In fact, it is

being discussed and that is
probably why the 'Warrior'

- is not going to be on.
- I see.

You see? Because, unfortunately,

such a thing does exist
in this world, you see.

Like, I don't know, in a certain
part of the country, right?

Where they think that,
business wise, it's a risk.

And I don't blame them..
I don't blame them.

I mean, in the same way, it's like in Hong Kong,
if a foreigner came and became a star,

if I were the man
with the money,

I probably would have my own
worry of whether,

or not the acceptance
would be there.

But that's all right because,

if you honestly express yourself,
it doesn't matter, see?

- Because you're going to do it!
- How 'bout the other side of the coin?

Is it possible that you,
I mean you're fairly hip,

and fairly Americanized, are you too western
for our oriental audiences do you think?

I..oh man!..Like how
I have been criticized for that!

- You have, eh?
- Oh, definitely.

Let me say this:
When I do the Chinese film

I'll try my best not to be as....
American as, you know

I have been adjusted to for the
last 12 years in the States.

But when I go back
to the States,

- it seems to be the
other way around,

- you know what I mean?
- you're too exotic, eh?

Yeah, man. I mean they're trying
to get me to do too many things

that are really for the sake
of being exotic.

- Do you understand what I am
trying to say? - Oh sure.

So, it's really, I mean

When you live in both worlds, it brings
its problems as well as its advantages,

and you've got them both.
Time to go to a commercial.

I'll be back in a moment
with Bruce Lee.

Let me ask you whether
the change in attitude

on the part of the Nixon
administration towards China

has helped your chances of starring
in an American TV series?

- Well, first of all, this happened
before that. - Yeah.

But I do think that

things of Chinese will be quite
interesting for the next few years.

I mean not that I'm politically inclining
toward anything, you know, but

I understand that, but
I was just wondering.

But I mean once the opening of
China happens, you know,

- I mean that it will bring
more understanding! - Yeah.

More things that are, hey,
like different, you know?

And maybe in the contrast of comparison
some new thing might grow.

So, therefore, I mean it's a
very rich period to be in.

- I mean like, if I were born,
let's say 40 years ago - Yeah.

and if I thought in
my mind and said:

'boy, I'm going to star in a
television series in America',

Well...that might be a vague dream,
but I think, right now, it may be, man.

Do you still think of
yourself as Chinese

or do you ever think of yourself
as a north American?

You know what I want
to think of myself?

As a human being.

Because, I mean I don't want to
sound like ask Confucius,

saaaayyy...but under the sky, under the
heaven, man, there is but one family.

It just so happens that
people are different.

OK, we've got to go. Thank you
Bruce lee for coming here,

- and thank you for watching.
- Thank you, Pierre, thank you.

You've been watching Bruce Lee
on the Pierre Burton Show.

A half-hour programme of conversation
opinion and debate.

This is Bernard Coven speaking.

Subtitles created by:
mgtomi@freemail.hu