Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,040
Oh, hi there.
2
00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,680
Now, may we have our next contestant?
Please will you come in?
3
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,400
Will you tell our panel please
4
00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,840
what your name is and where you from?
5
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,520
My name is John Cage.
I am from Stony Point, New York.
6
00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,920
Mr. Cage and he is from New York.
Mr. Cage is a musician, he is a composer,
7
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,600
he teaches a course in music
at the New School here in New York.
8
00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,280
He is probably the most controversial
figure in the musical world today
9
00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,200
and when you will hear his performance
- if you will forgive me -
10
00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,960
you will understand why.
Will you tell us quite seriously,
11
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,040
whether or not you consider
what we are about to hear music?
12
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,760
No tongue and cheek, but seriously.
13
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,160
No, perfectly seriously I consider music
the production of sounds.
14
00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,880
And since in the piece,
which you will hear, I produce sounds,
15
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,320
I would call it music.
16
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,640
Inevitably, Mr. Cage,
these are nice people,
17
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,640
but some of them are going to laugh.
Is that alright?
18
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,000
Of course, I consider laughter
preferable to tears.
19
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,960
I�m with you, boy.
All right, let�s see this instrument.
20
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,440
That�s it!
21
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,240
The title of the composition
is what, Mr. Cage?
22
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,480
�Water Walk�, because it contains water
and because I walk during its performance.
23
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:47,480
And the cut we want is from
one thirty-three to one fifty-three.
24
00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:51,720
Oh, I see. So this is actually the
beginning because it is the second part.
25
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,400
- This is the beginning.
- Okay.
26
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,400
There will be a film.
27
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,480
I thought that it was going to exist
28
00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:09,920
as the making of a
chance-determined film.
29
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:15,440
And the film that we took
is simply raw material.
30
00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:21,160
The cuts make a continuity
determined by chance operations.
31
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:15,640
It seems to me that the activity
of modern music
32
00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:23,800
has been to open the eyes and the ears
of people to things
33
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,040
that they were not aware
were beautiful,
34
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,680
for instance in music
particularly to noise.
35
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,320
John Cage? Politician?
36
00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,200
- Yes. - John Cage.
- The musician? - He is a composer.
37
00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,080
It was actually at a dance show
that I went to see,
38
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,360
some of his music
was being performed.
39
00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,560
And so, that is just how I know the name.
40
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,880
Pretty interesting, nothing like
I have ever heard before.
41
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,680
�Water Music� by John Cage, the score.
42
00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,160
You can see it isn�t a traditional score
43
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,000
but it�s far more exact than you�d think.
44
00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,160
You use a stopwatch.
45
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,800
This is like a timeline.
46
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,760
Here are the times and here it says
what�s to happen when, when it starts
47
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,160
and when it ends.
There are piano chords,
48
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,520
sometimes strange things,
like playing a duck whistle in water,
49
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,320
here�s a water warbler,
50
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,440
here you have to shut the keyboard lid,
and a radio should play at all times.
51
00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,400
It has to be set to a specific frequency
and you�ll just have to see what comes out.
52
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,040
What mattered to him was
that everything has its own sound.
53
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:25,360
Not just the conventional
musical instruments that you know,
54
00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,360
but every single object
and also water, of course.
55
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,000
Pouring water into different receptacles
has its own sound.
56
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,360
He wanted to mix the artificial instrument
that is a grand piano,
57
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,640
though slightly altered,
58
00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,600
with the natural sound of water,
which plays an equal part in the music,
59
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,000
and the technical sound from the radio.
60
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,160
That�s how he created a collage
61
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,680
from these three completely
different worlds of sound.
62
00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,080
For a lot of composers
63
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,000
this opened up the whole idea
that anything could...
64
00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,760
that any sound could be used
in a musical composition.
65
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,800
And it was a tremendous kind of freedom.
66
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,120
He thought seriously
of becoming a painter.
67
00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,480
And for several years
he couldn�t quite make up his mind
68
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,440
whether he would be a painter
or a musician.
69
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,040
And when he studied with Schoenberg,
he had already made his decision
70
00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,920
at that point that he was going to
dedicate his life to music.
71
00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,320
Well, I guess I did have an aversion -
I certainly had no feeling for harmony.
72
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:28,880
And Schoenberg thought that that would
make it impossible for me to write music.
73
00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,320
I asked him why I wouldn�t be able
to write music and he said:
74
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,240
�You�ll come to a wall;
you won�t be able to get through.�
75
00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,160
And so I said: �I will beat my head
against that wall.�
76
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,320
John came up to Stony Point,
I guess, more or less in the mid-fifties,
77
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,680
which was a little community
outside of New York up the Hudson,
78
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,640
about an hour plus drive from the city.
79
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,440
He�d grown up pretty much
in urban environments: Los Angeles,
80
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,400
a little bit time in Chicago
and then New York.
81
00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:53,520
And he just sort of jumped in and took it.
And as you know,
82
00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:56,720
he worked on building the place
and he arranged it,
83
00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,280
so that there would be a big glass window
looking out into this area right here.
84
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,400
And I think he just got interested, you know,
and curious and started to check it out.
85
00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:10,240
And then when he looked out here
and saw this sort of miscellaneous array
86
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,560
of - in this case - fallen leaves
and rocks and stones and trees,
87
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,320
all coming up more or less
by some kind of chance,
88
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,000
I think that gave him an image
or corresponded to an image
89
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,800
that he was beginning to have
of what his music might be doing.
90
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,720
To prepare a piano
is nothing more than setting it up.
91
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:20,600
You put objects in between
the strings to change the sound.
92
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,680
Cage wrote it all down
93
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,560
in a very exact way: screws, eraser,
94
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,800
a coin, a bit of plastic
and God knows what else.
95
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,160
And he didn�t just write down what,
but also where.
96
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:38,760
This is the one-cent sound.
97
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,520
I don�t use an American cent,
but a European one.
98
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:50,320
Nowadays you can rely on the Euro
at least in this respect.
99
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,960
Earlier preparers had it easier.
If you bought the score
100
00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:01,600
you got a plastic bag from the publisher
containing all the materials.
101
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,440
I don�t suppose
it was worth their while,
102
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,440
so nowadays you only get the score,
and with that
103
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,880
you go to the hardware store.
104
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,920
Originally he invented it as a stopgap.
105
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,320
He�d prepared a work
for percussion ensemble
106
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,280
to accompany a choreography,
107
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,760
but at the rehearsals
it turned out the hall was too small.
108
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,640
There was no room for a percussion
ensemble which was a real problem.
109
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,920
So as a kind of stopgap
he prepared a small piano with elastics
110
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:47,880
to imitate percussion instruments.
Then he got a taste for it
111
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:53,240
and composed several,
20 pieces of music for prepared piano,
112
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,520
sometimes more, sometimes less prepared,
113
00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:00,120
but always in connection
with dance and choreography,
114
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,560
usually done by Merce Cunningham.
115
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,000
Cage was very popular at that time.
He came to Peters in 1960
116
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,160
and his contract was exclusive with Peters
for all of his music.
117
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,000
Since I arrived the sales have grown.
118
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,880
I don�t know exactly what the pace was,
119
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:45,600
but to say that they have increased
by tenfold would be pretty accurate -
120
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,080
or more, in twenty years.
121
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,040
In Cage�s lifetime, he was selling
a respectable amount of music
122
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,320
but certainly not enough to exist on.
123
00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:02,480
He primarily made his livings from
commissions and personal appearances.
124
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,080
But now he could live comfortably
on his royalties alone,
125
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,360
without any commissions
or personal appearances.
126
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,800
He is by far the best seller
127
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,120
and brings in the most income
among American composers.
128
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,080
John Cage�s most important works
are in this area, actually.
129
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,640
For example there is �Aria�
130
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,720
which is a pretty interesting work to see.
131
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:44,920
And...
132
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,480
there is 4'33" - probably
his most famous piece.
133
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,800
These are all works that came at the
same time into the Peter�s catalogue.
134
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,320
That is why they kind of congregated
in this one area.
135
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,520
And here is the �Sonatas and Interludes�.
136
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,680
This is probably one of his
most popular pieces.
137
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,480
It incorporates his use of prepared piano.
138
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,040
This is the �Song Books� by Cage
139
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,120
and these are the instructions
for the performance of �Song Books�.
140
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,280
This is a very important piece of his.
141
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,680
Part of it incorporates a map
142
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,480
of the area around Walden Pond,
where Thoreau lived.
143
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:48,520
Cage was very interested
in the writings of Thoreau at this time.
144
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,320
And this is a drawing of Thoreau.
145
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,600
And I don�t know exactly
how you use those two things
146
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,160
to create a performance
but somehow or other you do.
147
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,200
You know, he had gotten
to the point in 1960,
148
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:15,120
where people were really demanding
his music. And he decided one day
149
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,800
that he wasn�t going to write another note
150
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,960
until he got a publisher.
151
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:23,440
And you probably know the story:
he called Walter Hinrichsen
152
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,840
and he had gone down the Yellow Pages
153
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,320
and came to Peters
and called Walter Hinrichsen
154
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,720
and Hinrichsen said,
�I am so glad you called me.�
155
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,880
�My wife has been wanting me
to publish you for years.�
156
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,280
Cage came to Peters
157
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:45,800
and they signed the contract - agreed
on the contract that afternoon over lunch.
158
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:53,920
Peters was always the top of the list
in terms of attention and care, quality...
159
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,720
And that was so good for John, wasn�t it?
He was so careful and precise
160
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,360
in what he did.
161
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,000
Hinrichsen took on everything
that Cage had written
162
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,360
or was going to write
for the next ten years.
163
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,240
- Well, that�s unusual
for a music publisher. - Very.
164
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,440
Throughout the �40s and �50s
165
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,680
he was doing his early percussion works
and his prepared piano pieces.
166
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,240
They were well received,
even by the general public.
167
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,040
People liked it. He had concerts
at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
168
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,920
He was doing quite well.
169
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:29,520
And then circa 1952, he decided
to start using chance operations
170
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,080
and that was very unpopular.
171
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,480
And a lot of people, who were
fans of Cage up until that point,
172
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:43,640
totally rejected the move to composing
by chance operations.
173
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:57,960
Each shot is being cut at least once
174
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:02,520
and some are cut twice
and some are cut three times.
175
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,000
- And that is all the result
of chance operations. - Mm.
176
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,840
That�s what these numbers have to do with.
177
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,960
Where do the numbers come from?
178
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:20,080
They come out of the computer
in a program that simulates the �I Ching�.
179
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,840
- You know the �I Ching�?
- Mm.
180
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,440
Sound is great.
181
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,280
Since I was already committed to music,
182
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,400
instead of proceeding in my involvement
with Zen Buddhism to sit cross-legged,
183
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,440
I decided to continue sitting at my desk
184
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:50,720
but changing my work from the making
of choices to the asking of questions,
185
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,040
which would be answered
by means of chance operations.
186
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:59,200
And that�s I�ve done for now
between 35 and 40 years.
187
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,280
The �I Ching� is an ancient
Chinese book of oracles.
188
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,400
I think it dates from maybe 2000 BC,
somewhere in there.
189
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,760
I knew from conversation that John
was very interested in oriental philosophy.
190
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,840
And so I thought, well, this is something
he might really be interested in.
191
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,440
I brought it along and that was
one of my presents for him.
192
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,560
It is used for consultation, on usually
occasions of some importance:
193
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,960
you have a decision to make
or you have a crisis in your life
194
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:20,240
and you want some help with it,
you consult the �I Ching�.
195
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:27,200
It is a series of texts, which are accessed
by means of a chance procedure.
196
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:31,040
There are actually 64 chapters,
so to speak, of text.
197
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,680
And you toss the coins or there is a more
complicated way of using yarrow sticks.
198
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:42,760
Your need to get one of these hexagrams,
so you have to toss the coins six times.
199
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,560
This time we have two tails and a head.
200
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,800
And that�s a number seven,
that�s a straight line. Okay.
201
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,680
Now, when John first started to use this,
whenever he had a spare moment,
202
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,840
you�d be in a restaurant
waiting for you order or whatever,
203
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,000
he�d always have his coins out
and would be...
204
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,640
because this takes hours, you know,
205
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,880
because for a page of music
you�d need like 60 sets of tosses.
206
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,480
So, he had this notebook
207
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,640
where he would accumulate hexagrams
just to have for later use,
208
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,920
and he would use any spare instant
he had to be doing this.
209
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:28,080
And that�s two heads and a tail -
that is a broken line.
210
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,800
Okay, so know we get this hexagram:
211
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,600
this is the bottom three lines - these
are the various possibilities there -
212
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,840
and these are the top three lines.
And then you cross reference
213
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,640
and you get the number there, which is
the number for the text that you go.
214
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,200
But Cage in a sense initially
had no interest in that part at all.
215
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,360
He was simply interested in the fact
216
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,840
that he was going to get
one of 64 possible possibilities
217
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,000
by tossing the coins
in this particular way.
218
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,440
And for the rest of his life
that�s what he used to compose with.
219
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,000
I hope that comes out to five minutes,
220
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,520
- thirty times ten seconds?
- Sure.
221
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,080
I think the reason I am so fascinated
about numbers is
222
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,640
that I don�t really understand them.
223
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,480
John�s idea was that chance
was an opportunity
224
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:34,480
not to let your subconscious emerge
in the work, as the Surrealists did,
225
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,120
but to get completely beyond yourself,
226
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,280
to really evict self-expression
from what you were doing,
227
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,200
and that the piece of music would be
more interesting as a result,
228
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,440
or more like life -
229
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,360
more like �nature in her
manner of operation,� as he said.
230
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,200
This is another kind which is also good:
231
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,840
Collybia radicata.
232
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,800
So, yes John, when he first got here,
he just sort of explored the place
233
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,000
and got out into the woods
and up here and so forth
234
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,480
and then noticed that things grew and
some of them were quite interesting looking
235
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,800
and they were mushrooms and he discovered
that you can eat some of them
236
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,240
if you were careful about which ones
237
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,680
and began to inform himself
238
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,000
and eventually of course became,
you know, a word class mycologist.
239
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,600
Nothing happened as far as I was concerned
with mushrooms until the middle �50s
240
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:54,320
when I moved away from New York
to Rockland County near New York
241
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:01,200
in a community situation.
And I had been used to New York
242
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:05,160
to more or less the privacy
you have in a big city.
243
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,840
Whereas in the country, there were six
of us all living in the same farmhouse,
244
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,000
waiting for places to be built for us.
245
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,000
So I took to walking in the woods
246
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,880
just to get a little solitude.
247
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,960
I thought I would pick some berries,
248
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:47,800
but the ground was absolutely covered
with mushrooms of many different colors.
249
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,960
And like a child I was drawn to them.
250
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:03,080
I�ve been hunting mushrooms
since that time,
251
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,880
whenever I have the opportunity
252
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,560
and all over the world.
253
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,920
Once I was hunting with my father
254
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,000
and we weren�t finding anything
255
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,480
and he said, �Well, we can always go
and buy some real ones.�
256
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,480
I have come through my music
to enjoy the sounds
257
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,800
that are in my environment
wherever I am.
258
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,080
And I wouldn�t say
259
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,280
that I understand the environment.
I simply experience it.
260
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,880
I�ve given up that whole idea
of value judgments.
261
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,000
That�s what our education gives us.
262
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,400
But through Zen Buddhism I came
to want to increase my enjoyment
263
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,440
of all the things that I can experience.
264
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,360
Listen to what is going on around you,
pay attention - that�s good.
265
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:30,080
But I have the feeling that Cage wants
not a more up-to-date dictionary;
266
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,040
he wants no dictionary at all.
267
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,200
He wants there to be
no distinction whatsoever
268
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,080
between natural or ambient sound
on the one hand
269
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,320
and organized sound on the other.
270
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,800
And I am saying without that distinction,
271
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,000
I can�t pay attention
to something as music.
272
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,640
I think that Cage�s influence
is an openness to technology;
273
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,680
it�s an openness to the self
and how one experiences things,
274
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,880
so a kind of experiential approach
to composition and art making.
275
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,520
It�s, you know, the sheer novelty
of things that one can do,
276
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,600
using your environment
to create a composition.
277
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,000
So I think it could all be put under
the rubric of giving permission;
278
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,320
you know, that Cage was
a great permission giver.
279
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,800
I think the question that Cage raises
280
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:45,200
- at least for me - is whether
I am capable of responding to it
281
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,640
in the way which I respond
to pieces of music.
282
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,920
And I think that Cage makes it
almost impossible to do that.
283
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,520
Now, this isn�t to say
that he is not an artist,
284
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,160
he may well be a performance artist,
285
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,200
or these may be terrific pieces of theater
and they may cause
286
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,360
interesting reflection
on the nature of music,
287
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,920
without themselves being music.
288
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,440
Well, I always thought of Cage�s music
289
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,000
as something very friendly
290
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,000
and ultimately unanarchic.
291
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,400
Because it doesn�t want
to subdue the opposite side.
292
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,160
It is quite unrethorical.
It is very unrethorical music,
293
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,880
that leaves the opposite side free reign
and lets it be free unto itself.
294
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,000
I don�t feel it as part of that old story:
295
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,760
melody, harmony, rhythm.
296
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,800
I don�t feel it as that sequence
297
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,320
of debt, repudiation, innovation;
think of Beethoven and Mozart.
298
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,560
There�s plenty of repudiation of Mozart,
but the debt is there.
299
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,680
And I find in Cage, in the most
difficult works, not in all of them,
300
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,840
but the most problematic works,
just repudiation.
301
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,840
So I find it more political
302
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,840
than musical.
303
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,520
I use elements of chance
304
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,840
in just about everything I do.
305
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,160
Things obviously happen
when you use chance
306
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,560
that pushes it somewhere other than
your aesthetic prejudice of the moment.
307
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,840
And most of what we do
308
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,400
is involved with our aesthetic prejudice
of the moment
309
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,640
and I try to circumvent it,
to go somewhere else.
310
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,400
This is a painting
that�s part of a project
311
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,920
that was started
two or three decades ago,
312
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,360
to do a painting of the first thunder clap
on the first page of �Finnigans Wake�.
313
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,000
Cage was fond of �Finnigans Wake�
314
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,760
and it was something I had read
and was fond of
315
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,920
as something we talked about;
316
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,080
it was something we had
a different relationship with it.
317
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:00,840
The letters are projected
from the book, in fact.
318
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,840
They are exact blow-ups. You see...
319
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,600
half or a little more than half of an �N�
320
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,440
and next to it is 99 percent
of the next �N�
321
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,320
as chance determined it.
322
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,640
This �N� is almost complete here.
323
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:26,080
So, what area I am going to fill in
as it were,
324
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:28,880
I throw a pair of dice.
325
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,840
So, I�ll work in this area. And...
326
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,000
I would choose either paint by chance
- blind without looking -
327
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,480
and then I might just kind of...
328
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,600
close my eyes and choose a place
329
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,640
and work really just...
330
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,760
this way.
331
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,680
With my eyes closed -
I�d wear sunglasses
332
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,720
so people won�t think
I am really a lunatic.
333
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,000
I have usually two pencils
or two pens in my hand
334
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,240
and in my lap there is a pad
335
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,160
and I try to meditate.
336
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:41,280
I always liked them better than drawings
I make when I am looking, frankly.
337
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,840
The photograph of John Cage
looking out over the rock garden
338
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,200
is one you see very often.
339
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,440
What do you think he heard here?
340
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,880
He would have been listening
341
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,440
to the sounds of nature, I think.
342
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,040
The sound of the rain is beautiful today.
343
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,400
It�s like you�re becoming more and more
immersed in the world of sound.
344
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:22,240
When you play Cage I feel the same way.
Beside the sounds
345
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,200
many moments of silence emerge
346
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,760
until, ultimately, you hear sound itself.
347
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,640
The sounds are not so insistent
348
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,840
as to rob you of air.
349
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:51,400
Every single one of them
seems to start existing in free space.
350
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:57,440
Just like every single stone here exists
351
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,320
separate from one another,
352
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,480
and every rock has its own sound.
353
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,280
Cage once said
354
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,000
he wasn�t a composer, didn�t he?
355
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:27,400
He didn�t want to be
a composer but a listener.
356
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,440
He said he wanted to point his antennas
at the sounds of the world
357
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,280
and listen to them.
358
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:44,720
�Composer� is a modern-age term
invented in Europe.
359
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,760
I suppose
he wanted to free himself of that.
360
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:54,240
We Japanese have always
admired Western contemporary music
361
00:40:54,400 --> 00:41:00,360
and Western modernity,
and have even tried to emulate it.
362
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,560
If all of this is turned upside down...
363
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,440
...that�s pretty heavy.
364
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:17,080
But there�s an entire world
you can only hear if you do just that.
365
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:26,160
If you look at it that way, he is someone
who opened up a new world to us
366
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,760
and reminded us
of an old world at the same time.
367
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:22,240
In Japan too he is considered
a very important composer.
368
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,280
In other words, it�s not like
he is treated as
369
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,360
�oh, that avant-garde somebody� -
you know.
370
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,760
I mean, they do understand Cage�s work
371
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,280
and they really respect his work.
372
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:50,200
Food was one of the central
focus points for Cage.
373
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:55,120
And if he was in the kitchen chopping
a particular kind of mushroom or whatever,
374
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,160
this was part of the sound that was there.
375
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,240
He was always aware of the sound.
376
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,400
I heard that he was having
some difficulty
377
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,920
with his arthritis
378
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,800
and I�m sure he was getting the
regular kind of medication for arthritis.
379
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,920
I sent John a macrobiotic cookbook,
380
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,400
because I knew that he was
a very incredible cook, actually.
381
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:44,600
And so that was a way that I thought
maybe he might want to get into:
382
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,000
macrobiotic - and he did.
And it was amazing.
383
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:54,440
I just respect his attitude
of always being open to new things.
384
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:59,560
- All our technology is an extension of
what we are, don�t you think? - Mm, yes.
385
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:02,520
So, to record sometimes
- I guess, you must do it as well -
386
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,000
I use different microphones
for different songs.
387
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,960
Well, I have always used one, but
since I am going to be singing so much...
388
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,480
- Yeah, you make some experiments...
- I am going to use...
389
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,400
- And if you get old microphones...
- You have never heard me sing?
390
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,240
- No. - Are you gonna sing for us?
- No, I don�t think I will
391
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,560
because it�s with the microphone I should
sing and I don�t have a microphone.
392
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:22,360
Yes, I understand.
So you let the spirit,
393
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,200
- the microphone actually acted
as a vocal cord, the spirit. - Right.
394
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,360
- That�s what you�re doing.
- I could do a little for you.
395
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,520
But I don�t think it will mean
anything for you.
396
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,360
- You want me to do some? - Well,
I think everything means something.
397
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,800
Yeah, it would be nice just to do it.
398
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,320
Mm, beautiful, I like that.
399
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,680
- Do you like it?
- Yes. Got right through to me.
400
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,880
- I just go on and on for hours.
- Aha, yes.
401
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,360
I would say he was the
most special person I knew.
402
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,960
He really radiated. He made everyone feel
that they were part of the experience.
403
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,280
And he was always difficult
with decisions.
404
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,280
He never wanted to make decisions.
405
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,520
It was up to you to make the decision.
406
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,560
Yes, there were several, normally
shall we say in the �Freeman Etudes�,
407
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:07,000
let�s say places where
�I Ching� went wrong.
408
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,840
Like you would have an open string
and he would write vibrato on it.
409
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,920
I mean it�s possible to do something.
410
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,680
But this happens a few times
in the �Freeman Etudes�.
411
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,200
I approached him once at a concert
because I wanted to know
412
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,760
if something new was coming out.
What�s the new record?
413
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,560
And he said, �Well,�
414
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:28,120
�these musicians were playing
these new works of his very beautifully�
415
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,880
�and no one seemed interested
to record them.�
416
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:36,960
Although he didn�t have a clear input
on how something should be recorded.
417
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,840
He knew exactly
who the right performers were,
418
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,360
so they would be done correctly,
419
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,040
in the right spirit, in the right
type of interpretation...
420
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,360
Or there were questions
of how things were to be played.
421
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,880
- And he would always say to me
�Can I hear that?� - �Yes.�
422
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,920
So I would play it to him one way
and the other way.
423
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,080
I mean convincingly,
424
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:05,000
sometimes I would play for composers
one way very unconvincingly,
425
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,520
to make them take the first way.
426
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,960
But with Cage he was such a nice guy,
I loved him,
427
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,120
I couldn�t play games with him at all.
428
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,320
So I played really the best I could
both ways.
429
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,520
And there was a silence
and then he would say:
430
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,600
�I like both of them.�
431
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,520
There you are.
432
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,080
- So that�s the next shot.
- That�s the next shot.
433
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,360
- Got that?
- Yes.
434
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,000
That�s beautiful.
435
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:19,440
I had been playing chess regularly
and started playing with Bill.
436
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:24,120
So we were playing at home
and since John loved to play chess,
437
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,680
he invited Bill to play with him.
438
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,840
It was on that very first day
at Bank Street
439
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,000
that he said, �Do you play chess?�
And I said, �Yes, I do.�
440
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,280
�I haven�t played for a while,
but I do enjoy it when I play.�
441
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,720
He said, �Well, we should play
a game sometime.�
442
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,000
And that�s what we did.
443
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,280
So after a while it was chess
at five, seven days a week.
444
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,800
And that went on for 15 years.
445
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,120
That�s 10,000, more than 10,000 games.
446
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:10,360
Surprisingly,
Cage treated me as an equal.
447
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,720
He was very pedagogic,
although he said to my mother:
448
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,400
�I hope you don�t mind, I think of Dove
as the daughter I never had.�
449
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,320
Bob Rauschenberg had said to John,
450
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,840
that it wasn�t possible to do a hundred
percent chance composition for a painting.
451
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,840
That it was all well and good for John
in music but not for the visual arts.
452
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,880
So, I took that as a challenge
and I thought
453
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:43,040
I would try to see whether I could make
a composition using pure chance.
454
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,760
In the early �80s
I was working with silver.
455
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,120
And silver changes anyway
with light, air and humidity.
456
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:56,560
But I added to the change by putting
a chemical on called liver of sulfur.
457
00:49:56,720 --> 00:49:59,960
It is not only chance-based
because of the composition,
458
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:06,000
but it�s also indeterminant in the sense
that the chemical will change the surface.
459
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:25,160
When John was very young, one of his
first ambitions was to be a minister.
460
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,560
And I think that kind of leadership role
461
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:35,720
went deep and went into
his later artistic life as well,
462
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,840
because certainly he led the New York
art world and then later the world
463
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:47,080
in aesthetics in the second half of the
20th century and on into this century.
464
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:07,840
The freedom that he encourages
for performers is extraordinary
465
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:15,960
and makes for a situation
where one can feel one�s own creativity,
466
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:22,680
which he also envisions that the audience
should feel that creativity too.
467
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,840
John didn�t like improvisation.
A lot of people think that
468
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,600
because he is anarchic
and he is so free and so on
469
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,920
that improvisation
is exactly up his alley. It wasn�t.
470
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,480
He very much controlled.
471
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:40,280
When he wrote a score, he wanted
people to follow it very precisely.
472
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,440
Improvisation brings you back
to what you know.
473
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:48,560
And he always wanted you to go beyond
to territories that you didn�t know.
474
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,120
I find in my experience with music
475
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:11,600
that I enjoy more sounds than I ever did.
476
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:17,360
Recently, for instance, I�ve come
to like sounds that don�t change,
477
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,400
things that I used to try to ignore.
478
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:27,760
Now I actually enjoy them
and offer them to other people to hear.
479
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:28,520
I think our aim should be to have more
and more access to the enjoyment of life.
43469
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.