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1
00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:03,619
The computer system Post
Office spent an arm and a leg on
2
00:00:03,620 --> 00:00:04,659
is faulty.
3
00:00:04,660 --> 00:00:06,259
I haven't got that money!
4
00:00:06,260 --> 00:00:09,979
The losses must have been caused
by Mr Castleton's own error.
5
00:00:09,980 --> 00:00:14,499
You're inside subpostmasters'
Horizon... and he doesn't know?
6
00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:18,379
We're ready to mount and
fund an independent review.
7
00:00:18,380 --> 00:00:20,499
Mr Rutherford's
organisation, Second Sight,
8
00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:25,779
will be working for us, the MPs,
and therefore indirectly for you.
9
00:00:25,780 --> 00:00:29,059
They had no right to
take you to court at all.
10
00:00:29,060 --> 00:00:32,539
They destroyed our
whole life... for a lie?
11
00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:35,299
Alan, it's Paula Vennells.
12
00:00:35,300 --> 00:00:37,940
Where do we go from here?
13
00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:14,980
Sorry, Martin, I hit every red
light on the way here, mate.
14
00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:20,939
You get later every
day. Oh, come on.
15
00:01:20,940 --> 00:01:22,780
You don't get no
more cheerful, pal.
16
00:01:24,060 --> 00:01:27,499
Just need to get home. Ah,
we all do, mate. Long day?
17
00:01:27,500 --> 00:01:28,979
They're all long days.
18
00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:31,059
Any specials with these?
19
00:01:31,060 --> 00:01:34,059
Giro pouch. Cheque pouch.
20
00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:36,900
I'll have to come
back for them. Yeah.
21
00:01:47,020 --> 00:01:48,300
Oh.
22
00:02:16,340 --> 00:02:18,899
Please! No... don't...!
23
00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:20,539
Don't!
24
00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:24,939
Stay there! Don't look at me!
25
00:02:32,260 --> 00:02:34,059
Come on, hurry up!
26
00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:36,459
Please! Hurry up!
27
00:02:36,460 --> 00:02:37,619
Go, go, go, go!
28
00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:59,579
Martin, let's talk
about what happened.
29
00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:05,580
The total loss to Post Office
funds that day were £54,354.96.
30
00:03:06,260 --> 00:03:08,539
The police were there
in five minutes.
31
00:03:08,540 --> 00:03:10,699
They got most of it back.
32
00:03:10,700 --> 00:03:13,939
This is a culpability
interview, Martin.
33
00:03:13,940 --> 00:03:16,619
You had the parcel
hatch open and the safe.
34
00:03:16,620 --> 00:03:19,579
In accordance with
section 12, paragraph 18
35
00:03:19,580 --> 00:03:22,139
of the subpostmasters'
contract... - Martin?
36
00:03:22,140 --> 00:03:24,259
..you're bound to take
reasonable precautions
37
00:03:24,260 --> 00:03:26,299
to safeguard official
cash and property.
38
00:03:27,420 --> 00:03:30,059
You are therefore contractually
liable for an amount of...
39
00:03:30,060 --> 00:03:32,259
Seven and a half
thousand pounds?
40
00:03:32,260 --> 00:03:34,739
So now the armed robbery
is our fault, too.
41
00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:37,459
It wasn't the robbery
that got me sacked.
42
00:03:37,460 --> 00:03:40,220
Sacked? What?
43
00:03:42,140 --> 00:03:45,619
I'm already under investigation
for the Horizon shortfalls,
44
00:03:45,620 --> 00:03:47,699
and now the robbery.
45
00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:48,940
Three months' notice.
46
00:03:49,940 --> 00:03:51,099
Oh, Martin.
47
00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:55,900
For four years of, every day,
opening that door, waiting for...
48
00:03:57,180 --> 00:03:58,979
For what?
49
00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:01,460
For the day to end.
50
00:04:08,660 --> 00:04:12,139
"Terminated for continued
poor accounting performance,
51
00:04:12,140 --> 00:04:15,499
"not operating individual
stock units correctly.
52
00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:17,979
' "Failure to make good
losses in a timely manner."
53
00:04:17,980 --> 00:04:19,219
'They're just going on'
54
00:04:19,220 --> 00:04:23,419
and on about the contract and
blaming Martin for everything,
55
00:04:23,420 --> 00:04:25,620
never accepting it's
Horizon's fault.
56
00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:28,900
How big did the shortfalls get?
57
00:04:32,060 --> 00:04:34,340
£61,000 altogether.
58
00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:38,659
'They've had our
savings already.
59
00:04:38,660 --> 00:04:40,260
'And our parents'.'
60
00:04:41,660 --> 00:04:43,940
Alan, we've nothing
left to give.
61
00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:47,299
Wow!
62
00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:49,619
Every time we meet,
there's more of us...
63
00:04:49,620 --> 00:04:52,019
There's the vegetarian
ones... Thank you.
64
00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:53,499
..and we're always ravenous.
65
00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:55,660
Have we eaten Alan?
66
00:04:56,700 --> 00:04:59,019
That phone is a full-time job.
67
00:04:59,020 --> 00:05:01,819
And the effect it
had on the family was...
68
00:05:01,820 --> 00:05:04,459
I mean, not just me and Lisa,
but, you know, the kids, we...
69
00:05:04,460 --> 00:05:06,579
I mean, we had to move
the schools, you know,
70
00:05:06,580 --> 00:05:07,659
cos of the bullying.
71
00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:12,180
And then our daughter, Millie-Jo,
she hit her teens and...
72
00:05:14,780 --> 00:05:16,460
..just stopped eating.
73
00:05:17,940 --> 00:05:20,019
It was anorexia.
74
00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:22,939
And they say don't blame
yourselves. But you do.
75
00:05:22,940 --> 00:05:25,820
Yeah, of course you do. And
nobody understands, do they?
76
00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:29,499
Jo's always been very
kind to us, hasn't she?
77
00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:30,940
We call her, "Mum". Yeah.
78
00:05:31,980 --> 00:05:34,579
If she's Mum,
what's Alan? Dad?
79
00:05:34,580 --> 00:05:36,699
We
don't call him Dad.
80
00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:38,419
Alan's the godfather.
81
00:05:38,420 --> 00:05:40,860
Shall we, eh, crack on?
82
00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:43,940
Yep. The Don has spoken.
83
00:05:45,180 --> 00:05:47,299
You all right? Yeah.
84
00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:52,340
The thing is, Alan, I'm not sure
my computer was really the problem.
85
00:05:53,420 --> 00:05:56,339
I just had endless power cuts.
86
00:05:56,340 --> 00:05:58,499
36 of them in one day.
87
00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:02,059
If you get a power cut in the
middle of a transaction, poof!
88
00:06:02,060 --> 00:06:03,780
No wonder it comes out wrong.
89
00:06:04,980 --> 00:06:08,819
You see, erm, my husband died...
90
00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:10,979
and I took over.
91
00:06:10,980 --> 00:06:13,739
It was just before
Horizon was installed.
92
00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:18,499
But then they didn't put the new
electricity lines in properly.
93
00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:20,139
Oh, Pam. Really?
94
00:06:20,140 --> 00:06:22,939
Doesn't it just go to show
how absolutely bloody useless
95
00:06:22,940 --> 00:06:25,859
they can be about the
simplest bloody things?
96
00:06:25,860 --> 00:06:30,220
I told them when they
closed me down, I said...
97
00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:35,699
.."If you can prove
that I stole that money,
98
00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:38,740
"then send the police
round, send them now."
99
00:06:42,580 --> 00:06:45,339
Since then, I have not slept.
100
00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:48,539
And I've been scared
every waking moment,
101
00:06:48,540 --> 00:06:50,980
expecting that
knock on the door.
102
00:06:52,420 --> 00:06:54,460
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
103
00:06:58,620 --> 00:07:01,180
You've got nothing
to be sorry for, Pam.
104
00:07:04,580 --> 00:07:07,260
I'm just so...
I'm just so angry.
105
00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:11,900
I hate being so angry!
106
00:07:12,980 --> 00:07:16,259
If I ever say I'm
going to give this up,
107
00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:18,660
remind me about people like Pam.
108
00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:24,299
So, to, er, to recap, er,
109
00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:30,059
my chat with Paula Vennells has
resulted in a new investigation
110
00:07:30,060 --> 00:07:34,539
and mediation scheme which
will allow all of us to apply
111
00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:36,539
for the compensation we deserve.
112
00:07:36,540 --> 00:07:39,779
Even people like me and Jo?
113
00:07:39,780 --> 00:07:44,019
Alan's got their commitment
here in black and white.
114
00:07:44,020 --> 00:07:48,379
The Post Office says
you may put your case
115
00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:50,299
through the mediation scheme,
116
00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:54,059
even if you've already
received a police caution
117
00:07:54,060 --> 00:07:59,459
or been subject to a criminal
prosecution or conviction.
118
00:07:59,460 --> 00:08:00,939
If we got our money back.
119
00:08:00,940 --> 00:08:02,379
And our good names.
120
00:08:02,380 --> 00:08:03,579
An apology, even.
121
00:08:03,580 --> 00:08:07,179
Steady on. Or just
getting to the truth.
122
00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:09,579
So, with your agreement,
123
00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:14,019
Kay and I will defend your
interests every step of the way.
124
00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:18,379
We will look into each individual
case and fight our corner.
125
00:08:18,380 --> 00:08:21,739
I know, but, Alan,
do you trust them?
126
00:08:21,740 --> 00:08:24,420
I mean, do we
trust them? Really?
127
00:08:25,740 --> 00:08:28,019
Well...
128
00:08:28,020 --> 00:08:31,099
..they're putting money
and effort into it,
129
00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:33,219
and it's coming
from the top, so...
130
00:08:33,220 --> 00:08:37,220
Well, it's got to
be worth a try.
131
00:08:38,660 --> 00:08:40,420
Shall we have a vote?
132
00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:44,020
All those in favour?
133
00:08:53,660 --> 00:08:54,819
Great.
134
00:08:54,820 --> 00:08:55,979
42 pence change.
135
00:08:55,980 --> 00:08:59,179
Book of six first-class stamps,
please. There you go, thank you.
136
00:08:59,180 --> 00:09:02,579
£3.60. Sorry?
137
00:09:02,580 --> 00:09:04,540
£3.60.
138
00:09:15,660 --> 00:09:20,219
'For a long time, he
suspected the staff, you know,
139
00:09:20,220 --> 00:09:23,019
'of stealing from the tills.
140
00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:25,299
'The bad feeling
that's still causing.
141
00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:28,179
'But if it wasn't them,
then it had to be his fault,
142
00:09:28,180 --> 00:09:30,060
'like he's stupid,
which he isn't.'
143
00:09:31,580 --> 00:09:34,580
That was before - before we
knew about the Horizon thing.
144
00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:38,899
Can I talk to him?
145
00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:40,819
'Well, he won't talk to
me about it, even now.'
146
00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:42,700
It drives me mad.
147
00:09:44,340 --> 00:09:46,660
I know he's got depression.
148
00:09:47,780 --> 00:09:51,060
He's a proud father, and I
think he thinks he's failed us.
149
00:09:52,180 --> 00:09:53,580
'Failed our family.'
150
00:09:55,340 --> 00:09:57,299
Gina...
151
00:09:57,300 --> 00:09:58,980
put him on.
152
00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:09,340
Love.
153
00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:16,619
It's Alan Bates.
154
00:10:16,620 --> 00:10:19,219
He wants to talk to you.
155
00:10:19,220 --> 00:10:21,900
Please, Martin.
156
00:10:30,460 --> 00:10:32,499
Martin?
157
00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:34,019
'Yes.'
158
00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:37,259
Listen. Martin...
159
00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:39,779
you're not alone.
160
00:10:39,780 --> 00:10:41,419
There's a lot of us, and...
161
00:10:41,420 --> 00:10:43,859
'there's a new scheme
you can apply for.
162
00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:46,099
'I'm going to send
you the forms.
163
00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:48,459
'Martin, you might get
some of your money back.'
164
00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:50,220
Erm...
165
00:10:51,380 --> 00:10:53,179
I can't
talk to you right now.
166
00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:54,700
Ma...
167
00:10:56,060 --> 00:10:58,260
People are trying to help here!
168
00:10:59,740 --> 00:11:01,179
'I'm so sorry. Erm...'
169
00:11:01,180 --> 00:11:04,699
He's just... He's...
'It's OK, Gina.'
170
00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:08,539
I'll send you the forms,
but get him to apply.
171
00:11:08,540 --> 00:11:10,540
It's important.
172
00:11:13,420 --> 00:11:15,580
I'll try.
173
00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:21,939
Bloody traffic.
174
00:11:21,940 --> 00:11:24,099
Hi. Oh, hi.
175
00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:26,619
I'm a little late for a
meeting with Susan Crichton.
176
00:11:26,620 --> 00:11:28,779
Bob. Good to see you.
177
00:11:28,780 --> 00:11:31,340
Susan's left us.
178
00:11:32,740 --> 00:11:33,899
Why?
179
00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:36,419
New times, new opportunities.
180
00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:39,980
Moving forward, I'll be
your main point of contact.
181
00:11:42,540 --> 00:11:45,299
'This is Susan Crichton. I
have left the Post Office.
182
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:47,259
'Thank you for NOT
leaving a message.'
183
00:11:47,260 --> 00:11:48,700
Bob...
184
00:11:50,140 --> 00:11:51,340
..we need to talk.
185
00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:55,659
'I'm not bloody signing
up to this nonsense.'
186
00:11:55,660 --> 00:11:58,579
The Post Office want me to
stay on, but it's pointless.
187
00:11:58,580 --> 00:12:01,299
They've unilaterally
taken away our access to
188
00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:02,939
the legal and prosecution files.
189
00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:07,299
I can't investigate in a blindfold
with both hands tied behind my back.
190
00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:09,459
Alan, professionally,
I just can't do it.
191
00:12:09,460 --> 00:12:11,179
Bob, grit your teeth.
192
00:12:11,180 --> 00:12:13,099
We can't do this without you.
193
00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:14,819
I don't know why
you're doing it at all.
194
00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:17,459
You do know why. We
have to go to mediation
195
00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:19,419
because we can't
afford to go it alone.
196
00:12:19,420 --> 00:12:21,019
You're an idiot to
trust them, Alan.
197
00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:23,379
I think they're mostly just
a bunch of lying bastards.
198
00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:25,419
And I think they're
wasting your time and mine.
199
00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:27,739
Bob, if you walk away now,
200
00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:30,659
you'll never find out which
of those bastards IS lying,
201
00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:33,659
what they knew and when.
202
00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:37,860
And you'll never find out what
happens at the end of the story.
203
00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:42,499
We must both be mad.
204
00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:45,220
We are. Pint?
205
00:12:46,820 --> 00:12:48,500
Big day tomorrow.
206
00:12:50,460 --> 00:12:52,700
Your appeal against dismissal.
207
00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:57,940
Martin.
208
00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:09,139
Why don't I run you a
bath? It'll relax you.
209
00:13:09,140 --> 00:13:11,780
I'm all right. I'm OK, I'm OK.
210
00:13:15,260 --> 00:13:19,299
Please let me wash these clothes,
you've been wearing them for days.
211
00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:21,699
Don't you wanna wash your
hair, love? No. Stop.
212
00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:23,379
For tomorrow! Gina.
213
00:13:23,380 --> 00:13:24,899
It's a big day.
214
00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:26,579
All I'm saying is...
Gina... Gina...
215
00:13:26,580 --> 00:13:29,659
..we could just make a little
bit of an effort to look nice.
216
00:13:29,660 --> 00:13:31,539
Gina, leave me alone, please.
217
00:13:31,540 --> 00:13:33,180
OK.
218
00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:43,939
'We've been over this.'
219
00:13:43,940 --> 00:13:45,619
A parcel hatch is
about that big.
220
00:13:45,620 --> 00:13:47,659
Then you've got a sack
of mail, which is...
221
00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:49,780
You know how big a
sack of mail is, yeah?
222
00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:55,139
Once they were in with weapons,
even if the safe was closed,
223
00:13:55,140 --> 00:13:58,860
what would you do if they threatened
you and said, "Open the safe!"?
224
00:14:03,580 --> 00:14:05,979
I hope you're
having a fabulous morning.
225
00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:07,939
The time is now
coming up to 6:20AM,
226
00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:09,819
and it's time for a
little traffic update.
227
00:14:09,820 --> 00:14:13,419
It looks like there's
congestion on the M62,
228
00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:16,059
and it's building up to
the Runcorn turn-off.
229
00:14:16,060 --> 00:14:18,339
Martin?
230
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:20,620
You're off early, love.
231
00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:28,979
Sorry.
232
00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:31,579
Morning. Where is he?
233
00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:33,980
We don't know. Martin?
234
00:15:41,980 --> 00:15:45,459
It's not working. I know
it's not the other one.
235
00:15:45,460 --> 00:15:48,460
It's... Are you Mrs Griffiths?
236
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:52,460
Can we have a word
in private? N...
237
00:16:10,060 --> 00:16:12,220
Yes.
238
00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:15,060
OK.
239
00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:19,100
No, I...
240
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:23,300
Hmm. Of course.
241
00:16:24,660 --> 00:16:26,300
Thanks for letting me know.
242
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,499
He never regained consciousness.
243
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:42,060
God.
244
00:16:45,260 --> 00:16:48,339
Gina's had to agree to
switch off life support.
245
00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:50,100
Oh, Alan!
246
00:16:53,260 --> 00:16:55,340
Blood on their hands now.
247
00:17:29,060 --> 00:17:31,500
He had kids, Lee.
248
00:17:32,780 --> 00:17:34,340
I know.
249
00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:39,860
I expect he thought he
was doing them a favour.
250
00:17:43,420 --> 00:17:47,220
Are you doing
it, ever? No, no.
251
00:17:49,340 --> 00:17:51,420
No. Not really.
252
00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:01,620
Sorry. Sorry.
253
00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:06,859
..think about it. I'm sorry.
254
00:18:06,860 --> 00:18:11,660
Don't you... don't
you ever do that!
255
00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:18,540
I can't have you feeling bad about
this for the rest of your life.
256
00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:26,260
I'd have just walked away.
257
00:18:29,740 --> 00:18:32,899
I could have just shut the shop.
258
00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:38,900
Just put us on a slow boat to
China. I could have done that.
259
00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:42,219
And they'd have chased us all the
way to China for that money, Lee.
260
00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:44,780
They were never going to let go.
261
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:49,820
Hey.
262
00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:53,700
I know you did it for us.
263
00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:00,900
I can't think straight.
264
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:05,939
I don't know what to do.
265
00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:08,300
It's really very
good of you to come.
266
00:19:09,860 --> 00:19:13,579
We're all so sorry
for your loss.
267
00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:15,499
It was four days before
his notice ran out,
268
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:18,060
and he still hadn't told
the staff he'd been sacked.
269
00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:21,459
Yes, it's very hard.
270
00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:22,939
And his appeal
271
00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:25,779
against being fined for the
robbery, it didn't come to anything.
272
00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:27,819
They didn't decide
one way or the other.
273
00:19:27,820 --> 00:19:29,939
Stressful.
274
00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:31,859
Obviously.
275
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:34,100
I used to get so cross
with him, Angela.
276
00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:37,939
I never did understand
the problem,
277
00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:40,779
and he couldn't explain it,
just every morning going to work
278
00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:41,979
and saying he was desperate.
279
00:19:41,980 --> 00:19:44,859
He was really desperate.
280
00:19:44,860 --> 00:19:47,939
Every morning, the same words.
281
00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:49,980
"I hate it."
282
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:56,300
"I can't bear it."
283
00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:01,500
For years.
284
00:20:05,540 --> 00:20:07,140
Can you imagine?
285
00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:15,460
We, er...
286
00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:20,619
..we're going to do
right by you, Gina.
287
00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:23,100
You can rely on us.
288
00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:27,660
Yeah.
289
00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:31,299
So, as we launch
this mediation scheme,
290
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,419
I can confirm our agreement
291
00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:36,139
that Martin Griffiths'
case will be dealt with
292
00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:38,220
as a priority by
this working group.
293
00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:43,019
Now, you've also received
a request from the family
294
00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:46,539
that any approaches to Gina
should come through me.
295
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:50,459
Yes. Yes, we are happy
to agree to this, too.
296
00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:54,819
Shall we declare this mediation
scheme up and running? Yes.
297
00:20:54,820 --> 00:20:57,339
We have a long list
of cases to examine.
298
00:20:57,340 --> 00:20:59,940
So let's get started.
299
00:21:01,340 --> 00:21:05,059
Right, then, start with Martin.
300
00:21:05,060 --> 00:21:07,099
First things first...
301
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:08,819
Mr Griffiths.
302
00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:11,619
'Profits
falling, Mrs Vennells.
303
00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:13,739
'Government subsidy
on its way out.
304
00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:16,419
'That means a reckoning is
on the horizon, does it not?'
305
00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:18,179
'It does, absolutely.'
306
00:21:18,180 --> 00:21:20,619
And the whole point about
this investment programme
307
00:21:20,620 --> 00:21:24,379
is to make sure we have models
that are commercially sustainable.
308
00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:26,379
'And my ambition
would be...' Yes.
309
00:21:26,380 --> 00:21:29,259
'..that within three to four
years' time...' Horizon.
310
00:21:29,260 --> 00:21:31,659
..the Post Office doesn't
need to take taxpayers' money
311
00:21:31,660 --> 00:21:35,859
to support those post offices that
can be commercially profitable.
312
00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:38,179
'So, Paula, if you
don't mind me asking,
313
00:21:38,180 --> 00:21:41,379
'you're CEO of the Post
Office...' Ask her about Horizon.
314
00:21:41,380 --> 00:21:43,659
'..but you're also a priest
in the Church of England.
315
00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:45,699
'How do you combine
those two roles?'
316
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:48,339
Very good, thank you.
317
00:21:48,340 --> 00:21:50,939
Good to see you.
Thank you very much.
318
00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:54,659
Just one thing. This,
erm, Horizon business.
319
00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:57,619
Anything in it? I
beg your pardon?
320
00:21:57,620 --> 00:22:02,100
Horizon. Some lurid
allegations out there.
321
00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:05,860
Well, er...
322
00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:10,099
Well, after two and a half
years of investigations,
323
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:13,339
it is now clear that the
Horizon system is robust
324
00:22:13,340 --> 00:22:15,739
and works as it should.
325
00:22:15,740 --> 00:22:17,380
Thank you.
326
00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:25,899
'And God said to Solomon...'
327
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,619
"Ask for whatever you
want me to give you."
328
00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:32,499
And Solomon said...
329
00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:35,859
"Give your servant
a discerning heart
330
00:22:35,860 --> 00:22:37,259
"to govern your people
331
00:22:37,260 --> 00:22:40,460
"and to distinguish
between right and wrong."
332
00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:45,899
The Lord was pleased that
Solomon had asked for this.
333
00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:48,579
So God said to him...
334
00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:50,940
"I will do what you have asked.
335
00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:57,220
"I will give you a wise
and discerning heart."
336
00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:05,059
I've been preparing for this
mediation hearing for months.
337
00:23:05,060 --> 00:23:07,939
You will remember that I
asked to see this data,
338
00:23:07,940 --> 00:23:10,499
the ARQ data from your system,
339
00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:13,619
so that I could see if
it matched up to my data
340
00:23:13,620 --> 00:23:16,099
from my till in my branch.
341
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:17,859
I kept everything, you see.
342
00:23:17,860 --> 00:23:20,139
Now, you told me
343
00:23:20,140 --> 00:23:22,819
I wouldn't be capable of
interpreting the ARQ data
344
00:23:22,820 --> 00:23:26,620
because I was a silly
woman or something.
345
00:23:27,580 --> 00:23:30,940
Anyway, may I direct
you to page seven?
346
00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:36,939
Now, you will clearly
see a two-hour period
347
00:23:36,940 --> 00:23:40,579
when money alterations
were being put in,
348
00:23:40,580 --> 00:23:44,380
but not by me, because
I was serving customers.
349
00:23:45,620 --> 00:23:48,779
There is no functionality
in the Horizon system
350
00:23:48,780 --> 00:23:50,619
to remotely access
branch terminals.
351
00:23:50,620 --> 00:23:53,539
I just proved there is!
352
00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:56,739
Mrs Stubbs, we have
to tell you now that,
353
00:23:56,740 --> 00:23:58,899
at this mediation meeting,
354
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:02,059
we are under no legal
or moral obligation
355
00:24:02,060 --> 00:24:04,379
to do anything whatsoever.
356
00:24:04,380 --> 00:24:07,299
And we are working on the
principle of the contract,
357
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,900
which says that if you
lose money, you repay it.
358
00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:14,379
Well...
359
00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:17,099
I'm finished with
this, actually.
360
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:18,899
I'm finished with you.
361
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:20,659
See, I think you're lying to me.
362
00:24:20,660 --> 00:24:24,939
Mrs Stubbs, calm... And I
KNOW you're patronising me.
363
00:24:24,940 --> 00:24:28,379
And I'm going to tell the
whole world what you are like.
364
00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:31,379
May I remind you that you have
signed a non-disclosure agreement?
365
00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:35,419
I'll talk to anyone who will listen,
I'll stand up with all my papers,
366
00:24:35,420 --> 00:24:38,699
and I will prove
you lied about this.
367
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:41,139
Mrs Stubbs, this will have
legal ramifications... Oh!
368
00:24:41,140 --> 00:24:45,100
You want to take me to court?
I couldn't give a toss!
369
00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:53,180
'The way they treat people...
370
00:24:54,620 --> 00:24:56,739
'They are despicable!
371
00:24:56,740 --> 00:24:59,459
'I have never, ever been
made to feel like this...'
372
00:24:59,460 --> 00:25:01,339
'..in my entire life.
373
00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:04,099
Pam? Pam?
374
00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:05,979
You're... You're breaking up.
375
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,780
I mean, are they lying
or... or just stupid?
376
00:25:10,540 --> 00:25:12,060
Hello?
377
00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:21,060
For a while there, right at
the start of mediation...
378
00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,460
..you got close to
trusting them, didn't you?
379
00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:30,299
Maybe...
380
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:34,419
despite every awful
story they've heard,
381
00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:37,139
despite all the work we've done,
382
00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:38,820
they still don't get it.
383
00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:43,259
They actually believe
they're right.
384
00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:45,579
I understand your
impatience, of course I do.
385
00:25:45,580 --> 00:25:47,139
But, Alan, really?
386
00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:50,259
Four closely typed
pages of complaint?
387
00:25:50,260 --> 00:25:53,859
"Finding the truth is the last
thing they're interested in"?
388
00:25:53,860 --> 00:25:57,779
Well, that's been our experience
of their investigation.
389
00:25:57,780 --> 00:25:59,299
Well, will you at
least acknowledge
390
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:00,939
that, before writing
to the minister,
391
00:26:00,940 --> 00:26:04,220
it might possibly have been useful
to raise your concerns with Paula?
392
00:26:06,060 --> 00:26:09,060
Martin Griffiths is dead.
393
00:26:10,460 --> 00:26:12,100
Yes, I know.
394
00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:16,299
I, too, am concerned
about the length of time
395
00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:19,499
mediation is taking, but
Paula is very exercised.
396
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:25,139
I'm sorry, James, but, ha, these
mediation hearings are a joke.
397
00:26:25,140 --> 00:26:28,100
Well, let's just ask Paula
about that, shall we?
398
00:26:31,780 --> 00:26:34,259
'No, we have not
dragged our feet.'
399
00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:38,659
I've had 22 people working on this,
full-time, for more than a year.
400
00:26:38,660 --> 00:26:41,419
But not a single case finalised.
401
00:26:41,420 --> 00:26:43,539
And now I am told that
people are walking out
402
00:26:43,540 --> 00:26:44,979
of their mediation meetings.
403
00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:48,979
Yes, it has taken longer
than we would've liked.
404
00:26:48,980 --> 00:26:50,899
As chief executive
of the Post Office,
405
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,139
I could not put this scheme in
place and not do it properly.
406
00:26:54,140 --> 00:26:57,179
The system... and the people
who work in our branches
407
00:26:57,180 --> 00:26:58,579
are too important for that.
408
00:26:58,580 --> 00:27:01,739
Well, at least we can
agree on that one.
409
00:27:01,740 --> 00:27:04,339
Let's be clear, we still
have allegations here
410
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:06,140
of miscarriage of justice.
411
00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:09,979
Our lawyers advise
the correct route
412
00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:12,859
for challenges to
criminal prosecutions
413
00:27:12,860 --> 00:27:15,339
is via the Criminal Cases
Review Commission... Hold on.
414
00:27:15,340 --> 00:27:16,619
Hold on. ..to
the Appeal Court.
415
00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:19,579
No, you made promises, Paula.
You promised me personally
416
00:27:19,580 --> 00:27:21,899
that my constituent,
Jo Hamilton,
417
00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:25,939
whom I believe was wrongly convicted
and with whom all of this started,
418
00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:27,819
would be eligible for mediation.
419
00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:30,419
Our lawyers advise that
no mediation scheme
420
00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:33,539
has the power to overturn
a criminal conviction.
421
00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:35,060
Paula, this is quite wrong.
422
00:27:36,420 --> 00:27:38,299
You have broken your word to me.
423
00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:42,100
And you have broken your
word to the subpostmasters.
424
00:27:43,260 --> 00:27:45,780
You have broken your
word to Parliament.
425
00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:54,339
'Post
Office has broken its word
426
00:27:54,340 --> 00:27:57,139
'to Members of Parliament in
so many different respects.
427
00:27:57,140 --> 00:28:01,059
'It may, of course, be that
the trade of subpostmastering
428
00:28:01,060 --> 00:28:03,939
'was infiltrated by a
sudden rash of criminals.
429
00:28:03,940 --> 00:28:08,939
'I have met a lot of these people,
and I personally do not believe it.
430
00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:11,699
'Frankly, I no longer
trust the Post Office
431
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:14,339
'and will not be
negotiating with it further.
432
00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:17,219
'It has spent public money
on a mediation scheme
433
00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:20,739
'that it has set
out to sabotage.'
434
00:28:20,740 --> 00:28:23,419
He says he can get some interest
from the select committee.
435
00:28:23,420 --> 00:28:25,979
Oh, not another talking shop.
436
00:28:25,980 --> 00:28:28,819
Personally, I'm
looking forward to it.
437
00:28:28,820 --> 00:28:31,179
Probably more than Paula.
438
00:28:31,180 --> 00:28:35,299
Is it possible to
access the system remotely or not?
439
00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:37,499
I hope it is that we
know it is not possible,
440
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:39,859
and that we're able to
explain why that is.
441
00:28:39,860 --> 00:28:43,139
I need to be able to say,
"No, it is not possible,
442
00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:46,059
"and we're sure of this
because of X, X, X."
443
00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:47,940
I need the facts.
444
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:54,539
That's Paula.
445
00:28:54,540 --> 00:28:56,619
She looks very smart.
446
00:28:56,620 --> 00:28:58,620
Very corporate.
447
00:29:00,260 --> 00:29:02,499
Who's the other one?
448
00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:04,979
Angela van den Bogerd.
449
00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:07,699
The gruesome twosome.
450
00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,740
Don't they have any
blokes at the Post Office?
451
00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:14,579
'I have spent a lot of
the past 12 months...'
452
00:29:14,580 --> 00:29:16,099
Yes! Come on, Bob.
453
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:19,619
..requesting access to documents
that have been challenged.
454
00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:24,659
One issue we're looking into relates
to Fujitsu's office in Bracknell.
455
00:29:24,660 --> 00:29:27,979
Now, we first requested
documents relating to that
456
00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:30,139
almost two years ago,
457
00:29:30,140 --> 00:29:32,819
and we have still not been
provided with those documents.
458
00:29:32,820 --> 00:29:35,179
Erm, may I respond?
459
00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:38,299
We did provide a
year's worth of emails
460
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:40,659
that Second Sight requested.
461
00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:43,219
Unfortunately, those
emails that were provided
462
00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:44,619
were for the wrong year.
463
00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:48,259
That seems to me
an amazing error.
464
00:29:48,260 --> 00:29:50,259
Are there any other issues?
465
00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:52,699
Probably most important
would be full access
466
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:56,299
to the legal and prosecution
files held by the Post Office.
467
00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:58,979
Paula, why don't you make
those files available?
468
00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:00,979
What's the problem?
469
00:30:00,980 --> 00:30:04,099
The point I want to pick up
first, if I may... No, no.
470
00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:05,620
Answer my question.
471
00:30:07,420 --> 00:30:10,219
Er, it is the first time,
personally, that I've heard that.
472
00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:11,939
I'm happy to go away
and have a look.
473
00:30:11,940 --> 00:30:14,459
They've been told that
under no circumstances
474
00:30:14,460 --> 00:30:16,539
could they be given those files.
475
00:30:16,540 --> 00:30:17,859
Is that right or wrong?
476
00:30:17,860 --> 00:30:20,699
I... I do not recall that, no.
477
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:23,299
And you can piss right off.
478
00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:26,299
That sounds to me
like a shambles.
479
00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:28,459
We are hearing from Bob
480
00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:30,459
that your organisation
has been obstructive
481
00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:32,139
to his independent work.
482
00:30:32,140 --> 00:30:34,099
Is that right or wrong?
483
00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:36,379
We have provided, for
every single case,
484
00:30:36,380 --> 00:30:39,179
detailed, thorough,
independent investigation.
485
00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:41,739
Let me stop you there.
We've just heard from Bob,
486
00:30:41,740 --> 00:30:44,339
who is independent,
that you have not.
487
00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:46,539
You are the head of
the organisation.
488
00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:49,539
Will you provide the
information, yes or no?
489
00:30:49,540 --> 00:30:52,939
This is the first time that I have
been asked for this information.
490
00:30:52,940 --> 00:30:55,019
Yes or no? I am not aware...
491
00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:57,299
Will you provide it? Yes or no?
492
00:30:57,300 --> 00:30:59,539
'Give me a simple
answer.' Yes or no?
493
00:30:59,540 --> 00:31:01,899
'I am not prepared, on behalf
of the Post Office to give...'
494
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:04,339
I think I've got my answer.
You won't provide it.
495
00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:08,179
No, you have not got your answer.
You have not heard a yes or no.
496
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:10,219
I am simply saying,
at the moment,
497
00:31:10,220 --> 00:31:12,619
I am not able to
answer your question.
498
00:31:12,620 --> 00:31:14,459
Honestly, I find it
quite astonishing
499
00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:16,379
that you don't seem
to know anything
500
00:31:16,380 --> 00:31:19,619
about an issue that is so
politically and socially sensitive.
501
00:31:19,620 --> 00:31:23,179
I know a huge amount about this. I
know the really important things.
502
00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:26,179
You are the chief executive,
so the buck stops with you.
503
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:27,819
It does stop with me.
504
00:31:27,820 --> 00:31:30,099
I am not denying at all
that there are problems.
505
00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:31,139
Of course there are.
506
00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:33,819
There are problems
in any organisation.
507
00:31:33,820 --> 00:31:36,659
But this is about the
reputation of the Post Office.
508
00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:38,859
'What?!'
509
00:31:38,860 --> 00:31:42,460
No, it's not! It's about
people's lives, you moron.
510
00:31:50,220 --> 00:31:52,139
Slaughtered her.
511
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:56,059
Paula's face. She had no
idea what just happened.
512
00:31:56,060 --> 00:31:59,019
Gina Griffiths has pulled
out of the mediation scheme.
513
00:31:59,020 --> 00:32:02,219
Well, that can't be right.
Alan would've known that.
514
00:32:02,220 --> 00:32:04,819
Unless they went to
her behind our backs.
515
00:32:04,820 --> 00:32:08,140
What kind of people go back on
a promise to a grieving widow?
516
00:32:09,820 --> 00:32:12,859
It's not a
huge amount of money.
517
00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:15,419
Not, you know, life-changing.
518
00:32:15,420 --> 00:32:19,059
And in return, you had
to pull out of mediation.
519
00:32:19,060 --> 00:32:21,819
I've got nothing
coming in, Alan.
520
00:32:21,820 --> 00:32:25,059
I was gonna have to sell
the house just to live.
521
00:32:25,060 --> 00:32:29,779
I imagine they also got you to
sign a non-disclosure agreement,
522
00:32:29,780 --> 00:32:33,179
promising not to talk to
anyone about Martin's case.
523
00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:36,219
I shouldn't even
be speaking to you.
524
00:32:36,220 --> 00:32:39,099
They rang up, Alan. They
said it was a one-day offer.
525
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:42,900
If I didn't say yes by the
end of the day, then...
526
00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:45,739
I'm sorry.
527
00:32:45,740 --> 00:32:48,579
It's all right, really.
528
00:32:48,580 --> 00:32:50,420
I understand.
529
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:53,100
Well...
530
00:32:54,260 --> 00:32:55,940
I don't blame you.
531
00:32:57,860 --> 00:33:00,259
When Angela came to see me...
532
00:33:00,260 --> 00:33:02,539
Angela Van den Bogerd came here?
533
00:33:02,540 --> 00:33:06,820
She was nice... I thought. Kind.
534
00:33:08,460 --> 00:33:12,299
Now I don't know about any
of them. I think you just...
535
00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:16,580
We just... cling to
a notion, don't we?
536
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:21,660
That people can't be that bad.
537
00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:38,460
'Alan?'
538
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:40,739
Hello, Angela.
539
00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:43,299
Oh, good news.
540
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:45,099
No more reports
for Bob to write.
541
00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:47,259
No more need for you to
trail down to London.
542
00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:48,979
No more working group meetings.
543
00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:51,539
'A new way forward.'
544
00:33:51,540 --> 00:33:53,819
You're closing down
the mediation scheme?
545
00:33:53,820 --> 00:33:56,219
No, no, no. No, no... no.
546
00:33:56,220 --> 00:33:59,659
Not... Not closing it down.
We're... simplifying it.
547
00:33:59,660 --> 00:34:02,219
'We're taking it in-house.
548
00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:05,419
'We'll decide each
case individually.'
549
00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:06,899
Closing it down.
550
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:09,579
After 18 months, it's
in everyone's interest
551
00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:12,420
to speed things along
now, don't you think?
552
00:34:15,460 --> 00:34:18,779
Well, if that's what
you want to do. 'Oh.'
553
00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:20,420
Right.
554
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:23,259
Well, good to talk.
555
00:34:23,260 --> 00:34:24,699
'Bye, Alan.'
556
00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:26,300
Goodbye, Angela.
557
00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:43,540
Oh, you sods.
558
00:34:44,780 --> 00:34:46,420
Suzanne?
559
00:34:56,340 --> 00:34:58,219
I'm calling to tell you
560
00:34:58,220 --> 00:35:01,619
that I'm not allowed to
talk to you any more.
561
00:35:01,620 --> 00:35:04,459
Sacked again, eh?
That was quick.
562
00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:06,779
Well, I considered pointing
out that they're not allowed
563
00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:09,339
to just kick you and me
off the working group.
564
00:35:09,340 --> 00:35:12,899
Well, they're not allowed to go
around ruining people's lives
565
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:14,259
or breaking their promises.
566
00:35:14,260 --> 00:35:17,579
But since when did
that ever stop them?
567
00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:19,419
'They are not just
dropping us, Alan.
568
00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:21,299
'They're rubbing
our noses in it.'
569
00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:27,019
They're making us destroy or return
every single document they gave us.
570
00:35:27,020 --> 00:35:32,060
The whole investigation.
Three years' work up in smoke.
571
00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:34,980
'I'm so sorry, Alan.'
572
00:35:38,740 --> 00:35:40,660
Nice knowing you, Bob.
573
00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:45,139
Yeah. Goodbye, Alan.
574
00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:46,860
Cheers.
575
00:35:53,220 --> 00:35:54,860
Love?
576
00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:04,219
Oh, there you are.
577
00:36:04,220 --> 00:36:07,739
They're going ahead -
without me, without Bob,
578
00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:11,019
without anyone fighting.
Our members' corner.
579
00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:13,459
Did look at paint charts, but...
580
00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:16,259
in the end, I think
I just want white.
581
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:21,099
I'll get it done this weekend,
erm... help take my mind off it.
582
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:22,820
You what?
583
00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:28,140
Yeah, so, erm...
584
00:36:30,380 --> 00:36:32,500
..test came back positive.
585
00:36:37,860 --> 00:36:42,140
Hardly time to catch a cold,
is there? Let alone get cancer.
586
00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:52,220
You'll outlive me.
587
00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:56,020
Yeah.
588
00:36:58,500 --> 00:36:59,900
They'll operate.
589
00:37:00,860 --> 00:37:02,819
It'll be fine.
590
00:37:02,820 --> 00:37:06,099
I'll live. I want to live.
591
00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,179
I have to.
592
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:10,059
See some bastards go to prison.
593
00:37:18,220 --> 00:37:19,900
I'll put the kettle on.
594
00:37:47,580 --> 00:37:50,540
Mm. Still here, then?
595
00:37:52,260 --> 00:37:54,460
Tough old bird.
596
00:37:57,300 --> 00:37:59,260
I've, er...
597
00:38:01,140 --> 00:38:04,339
I've been thinking. Oh, God.
598
00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:05,940
No, no.
599
00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:12,700
If we can't find a lawyer
by, I don't know, December...
600
00:38:14,060 --> 00:38:16,780
..maybe it's time
to call it a day.
601
00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:22,059
You once said to me,
602
00:38:22,060 --> 00:38:24,219
"If I ever start talking
about giving up..."
603
00:38:24,220 --> 00:38:25,659
That was then.
604
00:38:25,660 --> 00:38:29,299
Don't you dare give up
on account of me, Alan.
605
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:33,220
Well, I'm not. It's
just, you know...
606
00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:37,339
..12 years is long enough
607
00:38:37,340 --> 00:38:40,139
to keep banging my head
against a brick wall.
608
00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:43,659
Don't you dare!
609
00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:45,739
Cos that would mean the
last 12 years of my life
610
00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:47,500
meant nothing, too.
611
00:38:49,260 --> 00:38:51,059
OK.
612
00:38:51,060 --> 00:38:53,899
New plan, then.
613
00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:56,659
Oh, well, maybe you could've
fought me a bit harder there.
614
00:38:56,660 --> 00:39:00,379
What about if we all
apply, all of us,
615
00:39:00,380 --> 00:39:04,139
to see everything the
Post Office has got on us?
616
00:39:04,140 --> 00:39:08,579
Horizon logs, investigation
reports, accounts, all of it.
617
00:39:08,580 --> 00:39:12,299
And, er... And then,
if we can see them,
618
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:14,139
I think we've got a
much better chance...
619
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:20,699
You have a lovely day.
620
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:24,099
And don't dawdle when
Mummy comes to pick you up.
621
00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:26,179
Are you gonna come in and help?
622
00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:28,700
No, darling, not today.
623
00:39:30,860 --> 00:39:33,219
Bye-bye, Joshua.
624
00:39:33,220 --> 00:39:34,860
Granny Jo loves you.
625
00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:38,020
Bye-bye.
626
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:42,979
You were only gonna be
helping them make paper hats.
627
00:39:42,980 --> 00:39:45,539
Yeah, it's not the
school's fault.
628
00:39:45,540 --> 00:39:47,619
They can't let me be
alone with the children
629
00:39:47,620 --> 00:39:49,380
when they know I've
got a criminal record.
630
00:39:50,780 --> 00:39:52,300
Oh, God.
631
00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:57,139
Come on. Mum,
will you stop it?
632
00:40:07,940 --> 00:40:10,419
This all right? Yeah.
633
00:40:10,420 --> 00:40:13,900
It's fine. Love a
toast-based meal.
634
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:24,419
Are you all right?
635
00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:26,539
Yeah.
636
00:40:26,540 --> 00:40:30,539
Never was any good to me, was
it, all that defective equipment?
637
00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:32,980
Never did manage to pop
any babies out of it.
638
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:37,419
And, you know...
when you think about
639
00:40:37,420 --> 00:40:40,659
the life we ended up having...
640
00:40:40,660 --> 00:40:43,780
maybe it's OK the
children never came along.
641
00:40:55,620 --> 00:40:57,579
I'm here, sorry.
642
00:40:57,580 --> 00:41:00,779
Oh, I think this might be
what I've been waiting for.
643
00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:03,300
Exciting. Signature
there, please.
644
00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:08,859
Cheers. 'Do they think
we're idiots or what?
645
00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:12,419
'146 pages blacked
out. It's ridiculous.'
646
00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:17,459
Can you make any sense of
exactly what's been redacted?
647
00:41:17,460 --> 00:41:19,059
No, I can't tell,
it's all black.
648
00:41:19,060 --> 00:41:20,979
But I'll tell you what's
definitely not there.
649
00:41:20,980 --> 00:41:23,019
The memo from my investigator.
650
00:41:23,020 --> 00:41:25,779
The one where he admitted
there's no evidence against me.
651
00:41:25,780 --> 00:41:29,139
'The one that proves it's
a miscarriage of justice.'
652
00:41:29,140 --> 00:41:30,740
Ridiculous.
653
00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:34,779
'The subpostmasters
applied to see this information,
654
00:41:34,780 --> 00:41:36,139
'as is their right,
655
00:41:36,140 --> 00:41:38,699
'and the Post Office think they
can just refuse to share it.
656
00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:40,459
'It's simply inexplicable.'
657
00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:42,899
What the Post Office
is saying is this.
658
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:45,219
That there have been
about half a million users
659
00:41:45,220 --> 00:41:46,539
of the Horizon system
660
00:41:46,540 --> 00:41:50,499
since it was introduced in 2001,
involved in Post Office business,
661
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:53,579
and that only 150 people
662
00:41:53,580 --> 00:41:55,859
have applied to the
mediation scheme
663
00:41:55,860 --> 00:41:58,779
for events spanning
more than a decade.
664
00:41:58,780 --> 00:42:01,179
The Post Office is saying
665
00:42:01,180 --> 00:42:04,539
that the idea that there
is widespread unfairness
666
00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:05,699
is simply not true.
667
00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:07,139
Well, I would disagree.
668
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:10,139
These are people who have
been pillars of the community,
669
00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:12,779
who've had their reputations
dragged through the mud,
670
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:15,179
who... who've been sent
to prison, some of them,
671
00:42:15,180 --> 00:42:18,100
and I understand that at least
one has committed suicide.
672
00:42:19,780 --> 00:42:21,379
And, Mrs Hamilton...
673
00:42:21,380 --> 00:42:24,899
you believe that you
have done nothing wrong?
674
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:27,699
I have done nothing wrong.
675
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:31,099
'I did not take a penny
from the Post Office,
676
00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:33,859
'but unfortunately, the
contract which runs the...'
677
00:42:33,860 --> 00:42:37,739
Excuse me, could you just
turn the radio up? Thanks.
678
00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:40,219
'..many of us in the Justice
For Subpostmasters Alliance
679
00:42:40,220 --> 00:42:42,699
'didn't receive a copy
of, says quite clearly
680
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:46,019
'the postmaster is contractually
responsible for the losses.'
681
00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:47,059
That's great.
682
00:42:47,060 --> 00:42:49,659
'We did ask the Post
office for an interview.
683
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:52,780
'No-one was available.'
684
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:56,139
'Alan Bates?'
685
00:42:56,140 --> 00:43:00,579
'Hi, Alan. My name's James
Hartley. I'm a solicitor.
686
00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:02,939
'Yeah, I just heard
the Radio 4 piece.
687
00:43:02,940 --> 00:43:05,619
'I... I think I can help.'
688
00:43:05,620 --> 00:43:08,179
'I always say to lawyers,
689
00:43:08,180 --> 00:43:10,819
'we're fighting a
war against an enemy
690
00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:12,739
'owned by the
British government,
691
00:43:12,740 --> 00:43:15,579
'which means they
have mighty forces
692
00:43:15,580 --> 00:43:18,699
'and bottomless pockets
funded by the taxpayer.'
693
00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:22,499
While we're just...
skint little people.
694
00:43:23,660 --> 00:43:27,699
Well, I specialise
in contract law,
695
00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:30,739
and this contract is...
696
00:43:30,740 --> 00:43:33,699
114 pages of complete rubbish.
697
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:37,659
I only got the two-page
version. It's unfair.
698
00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:38,699
It's out of date.
699
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:41,379
It even says you're not allowed
to gamble on the premises.
700
00:43:41,380 --> 00:43:44,379
Yeah, when we've got
lottery terminals, yeah.
701
00:43:44,380 --> 00:43:49,459
But, you know, we all signed
it, or some version of it, so...
702
00:43:49,460 --> 00:43:50,859
Well, yes, but...
703
00:43:50,860 --> 00:43:55,339
a contract that is not properly
understood by both parties
704
00:43:55,340 --> 00:43:58,299
is not necessarily
legally binding.
705
00:43:58,300 --> 00:43:59,899
OK.
706
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:04,019
Look, I think it may be
possible to raise the money
707
00:44:04,020 --> 00:44:05,579
to fight them in court.
708
00:44:05,580 --> 00:44:08,939
There are specialist funders
709
00:44:08,940 --> 00:44:13,379
who are willing to take the risk,
but only if there are enough of you.
710
00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:17,299
We had 130 applicants
to the mediation scheme
711
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:19,059
before the Post
office destroyed it.
712
00:44:19,060 --> 00:44:21,220
Mm.
713
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:25,499
Well, how many would you need?
714
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:28,100
At least 500.
715
00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:34,780
Well... I can do that.
716
00:44:50,540 --> 00:44:52,500
Hello?
717
00:44:53,620 --> 00:44:55,179
'Is that Alan Bates?'
718
00:44:55,180 --> 00:44:57,499
Yeah. Who's this?
719
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:01,579
'I worked at Fujitsu
in technical support.
720
00:45:01,580 --> 00:45:03,539
'I was gonna call you...'
721
00:45:03,540 --> 00:45:05,819
'..but I wanted to make sure you...'
722
00:45:05,820 --> 00:45:08,259
Hang on, hang on.
You're breaking up.
723
00:45:08,260 --> 00:45:10,340
I'm going to pull over.
724
00:45:19,380 --> 00:45:20,860
Hello?
725
00:45:35,980 --> 00:45:37,980
Hello?
726
00:45:39,100 --> 00:45:41,099
Sorry, I got cut
off. 'No, no.'
727
00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:43,019
I... I lost you.
728
00:45:43,020 --> 00:45:46,059
I don't want anyone
knowing I'm talking to you.
729
00:45:46,060 --> 00:45:49,379
Of course. I understand.
730
00:45:49,380 --> 00:45:52,779
But they're lying.
That's the point.
731
00:45:52,780 --> 00:45:55,139
They say there's no remote
access to branch accounts,
732
00:45:55,140 --> 00:45:57,579
but there was a whole room
733
00:45:57,580 --> 00:46:00,939
full of us inside Fujitsu
working overnights,
734
00:46:00,940 --> 00:46:03,179
doing thousands of corrections
735
00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:06,459
on Horizon while the
postmasters slept.
736
00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:09,339
Nobody's gonna
admit it, obviously.
737
00:46:09,340 --> 00:46:10,859
Are you still there?
738
00:46:10,860 --> 00:46:15,499
Yes! Sorry. Er, just
getting comfortable.
739
00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:17,419
Please, go on.
740
00:46:17,420 --> 00:46:19,979
'We were just
constantly firefighting.
741
00:46:19,980 --> 00:46:22,699
'Coding errors, bugs,
data corruption.
742
00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:24,739
'Horizon was much
worse than I thought.
743
00:46:24,740 --> 00:46:27,379
'It was shocking. It
needed scrapping, really.
744
00:46:27,380 --> 00:46:31,339
'It was hard-coded and
hard-designed for a completely...'
55855
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