Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:00,253 --> 00:00:04,200
The computer system Post Office
spent an arm and a leg on is faulty.
2
00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,400
We're ready to mount and fund
an independent review.
3
00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,760
Angela, nice to meet you.
Here to help.
4
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,040
We are hearing from Bob
that your organisation
5
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,880
has been obstructive
to his independent work.
6
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,520
But this is about the reputation
of the Post Office.
7
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,280
You are the Chief Executive,
so the buck stops with you.
8
00:00:23,658 --> 00:00:25,320
Blood on their hands now.
9
00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,560
I am told that people
are walking out
10
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,160
of their mediation meetings.
11
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,560
Our lawyers advised
that no mediation scheme
12
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,160
has the power to overturn
a criminal conviction.
13
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,160
You have broken your words
to Parliament.
14
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,440
They say there's no remote access
to branch accounts,
15
00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:39,760
but they're lying.
16
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,120
There was a whole room
full of us inside Fujitsu
17
00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:44,840
doing thousands of corrections
on Horizon
18
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,920
while the postmasters slept.
19
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:48,680
It may be possible
to raise the money
20
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,600
to fight them in court,
but only if there are enough of you.
21
00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,000
How many would you need?
At least 500.
22
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,320
I can do that.
23
00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:51,920
'Hard to believe it's eight years
since our first meeting.'
24
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,640
Even harder to believe that finally,
25
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,520
555 of us now,
26
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,680
ready to tell our stories
to a court.
27
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,800
That's all fine and dandy,
Alan, but...
28
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,560
how are we gonna pay for it?
29
00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,320
Er, well, James is the expert.
30
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,080
Er, there are
a few specialist funders
31
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,040
who are prepared to take on
this kind of risk.
32
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,440
If we win, we pay them back
out of your compensation.
33
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,440
If we lose, please?
34
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,960
Well, then they lose too.
Their entire investment.
35
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,840
It is high risk.
36
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,840
Win or lose, it costs a fortune.
37
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,760
And there's no guarantee
we'll ever see a penny.
38
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,640
And I... I want to make it clear
39
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,600
that there are a few other things
this group litigation
40
00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:48,440
is not going to do for us.
41
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,320
I'm sorry, Jo.
42
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,720
Sorry, Noel.
43
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,400
But it's not going to overturn
any criminal convictions.
44
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,880
It's not going to discharge
anyone's bankruptcies.
45
00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:04,040
One day.
46
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,600
It's not going to... to get back
any house repossessions,
47
00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:12,240
and it's not going to repair
anyone's shattered health.
48
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,360
Or bring back those we've lost.
49
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,080
Well, also, er...
50
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,040
I've got to say,
there's a few of us here
51
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,240
who've not much faith in the law
after everything that's happened.
52
00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,400
Believe in British justice,
that's what they say.
53
00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,040
Well...
54
00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:34,440
I-I've told you all the things
the law's not going to do for us,
55
00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:40,160
but I want you to think about...
what brought us together.
56
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:46,440
All those things that
we've been fighting for ever since.
57
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,000
Compensation.
58
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,240
Bigger than that.
59
00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,640
Justice.
60
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,480
Bigger.
61
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,120
The truth?
62
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,000
Exactly.
63
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:05,320
Yes, compensation.
Yes, justice, but...
64
00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,520
without the truth,
we can't do either of those.
65
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,320
Going to law will force
the Post Office to open their files,
66
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:19,120
so, finally, we'll get to know
everything the Post Office knows.
67
00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:23,040
The truth.
68
00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,560
The whole truth.
69
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,720
All those in favour?
70
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,720
Motion carried.
71
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,600
Yes, it's true that the Post Office
72
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,960
will now have to give us everything
they've got,
73
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,040
but it's also true
that in fights like this,
74
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,000
the side with more money
usually wins.
75
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,200
Unless...
something extraordinary happens.
76
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,360
Our whole case
is something extraordinary.
77
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,200
Yes. Yes, it is,
I couldn't agree more.
78
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,320
And what's very striking
is how...
79
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,640
many... people...
80
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,800
rang that helpline and were told,
"You're the only one."
81
00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:21,400
I asked to see if that phrase
was in the helpline scripts,
82
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,160
and the Post Office said,
"There are no scripts."
83
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,200
Yeah, and anyone
who's run a helpline
84
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,240
knows they parrot a script,
so it's clearly a lie.
85
00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,720
So what happened to the principle of
"give us everything you've got"?
86
00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,640
Well, whatever we ask them
to disclose,
87
00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,680
they either say the record
doesn't exist, or it's not relevant,
88
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,400
and whatever documents
they do provide
89
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,680
are often pretty much redacted
to death.
90
00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:45,360
Yes, I get the sense
that none of this
91
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:46,880
is coming as news to Mr Bates.
92
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,200
Welcome to my world.
93
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:52,640
The price of everything!
94
00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:57,280
I went looking for a dress,
but all I could afford is a scarf.
95
00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,520
Yeah, love.
Love, listen to me. Er...
96
00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:04,000
Did your mum tell you
that she had a doctor's appointment?
97
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:05,440
No.
98
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,840
She...
99
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,840
You'd better go and speak to her.
She's inside.
100
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,040
I got a new scarf...
for the court hearing.
101
00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,440
Do you wanna see?
102
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,960
I'm sorry, love.
I know you don't need this.
103
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,480
Don't need what?
104
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,800
I've got cancer, love.
105
00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:38,280
In a place I didn't even know
was a place.
106
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:39,800
Pancreas.
107
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,160
Does it hurt?
108
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:47,800
Well...
109
00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:50,200
Oh, God.
110
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,440
The look on that doctor's face...
111
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,160
It was me offering him the Kleenex.
112
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,618
He wouldn't tell me
how long I'd got, but, well...
113
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,480
Not long. Come on.
114
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,640
Don't you worry about me.
You've got your case to think about.
115
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,280
Oh, I don't care about any of that!
116
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,400
Promise me, on my life,
you'll see it through.
117
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,680
Promise me, Jo, you won't rest
118
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:37,640
till the world sees
the innocent babe I held in my arms!
119
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,520
I promise.
120
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,360
I promise, Mum.
121
00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,720
Sorry for your loss, Jo.
122
00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,040
Five days, we had together.
123
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,760
Five more days on this Earth...
and my lovely mum was gone.
124
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,000
You really didn't need
to come today.
125
00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,880
No, I made her a promise.
126
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,000
But she's not even buried yet,
127
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,160
so don't ask me
what just happened in there.
128
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,840
Well, there could be
five separate trials, but...
129
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:20,720
they're going to make us
wait another year
130
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,480
before they even start
the first one.
131
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,720
And you won't get called
as a witness, Jo.
132
00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,520
They won't call anyone
who's got a criminal conviction.
133
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,400
Well, I'll still come every day
to support you.
134
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,760
Bates and Others
versus the Post Office.
135
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,360
I'll be "Others".
136
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,240
I told our lawyers, I said,
137
00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,080
"All right, you can put my name
on the tin if you want to,
138
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,760
"but that doesn't mean you have
to put me in the witness box.
139
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:53,680
"Choose the best people."
140
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,880
Alan...
141
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,040
you ARE the best people.
142
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,520
'So, listen to this.
143
00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:04,080
'Three years ago,
Paula Vennells wrote...'
144
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,320
Is it possible to access
the system remotely or not?
145
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,880
"We are told it is,"
146
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,480
and Paula then asks her managers,
"What is the true answer?"
147
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,360
"I need to say,
'No, it is not possible
148
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,400
" 'and that we are sure of this
because of X, X, X.'
149
00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,680
"I need the facts."
150
00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,000
Wow, OK.
151
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,920
That is an email of Paula's
that arrived this morning
152
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,880
in a disclosure bundle,
and it wasn't even redacted.
153
00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,640
Well, this is...
this is fundamental.
154
00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:34,960
If we can prove they have
remote access to your computers,
155
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,640
then, I mean, that means all
the criminal convictions are unsafe.
156
00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:41,000
Look forward to hearing you ask her
about that in court, Patrick.
157
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,000
Unfortunately, the Post Office
also sent across
158
00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,080
their final list of witnesses
this morning, and...
159
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,440
Paula Vennells is not on it.
160
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,480
Ha! Brilliant
161
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,440
What? What's she worried about?
That is a very strange decision.
162
00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,240
Who are they putting up instead?
163
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,760
Er, the Peoples Services Director...
164
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,320
Angela van den Bogerd, yes.
165
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,240
She's had more job titles
than hot dinners.
166
00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,240
She's like a stick of Blackpool rock
167
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,480
with "Post Office"
written all the way through.
168
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,600
And she's a hard-faced cow.
169
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,160
Excellent. Tell us
how you really feel about her
170
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,560
Ha! Well, who am I?
No, no, Alan. Wait, wait, wait.
171
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,320
There is a possibility that Patrick
172
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,560
can still question Angela
on remote access.
173
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,080
Er, where is it? This is
from Angela's witness statement.
174
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,840
"Sub-postmasters
are solely responsible
175
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,200
"for their branch accounts.
176
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,840
"There is no transaction
that enters their accounts
177
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,600
"without their consent."
178
00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:40,240
Well, that's just not true.
179
00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,440
And we know a man who can prove it.
180
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,400
What, you've got a whistleblower?
181
00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:51,440
You'd be right inside,
looking at some postmaster's screen.
182
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,120
You could tell if he was busy, you
could see him selling his stamps.
183
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,520
Remote access?
Sometimes.
184
00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:57,840
Not often.
185
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,600
We'd go in using
the postmaster's ID,
186
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,520
find the cause of his problems,
fix it, come back out.
187
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,200
He'd never even know.
188
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:12,160
What, so, it would look like...
like he'd made the changes himself?
189
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,080
Yeah.
190
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,160
Richard, what if
you couldn't fix it?
191
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,960
What if you...
couldn't find a cause?
192
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,760
I don't know.
The postmaster took the blame?
193
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,560
I can't remember much detail.
194
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,160
And like I said to Alan,
I'm not prepared to go to court
195
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,160
or stick my neck out
in any way whatsoever.
196
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,120
Sure, sure.
197
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,040
No, no, it's not just that Richard
is too shy to give evidence.
198
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,280
He's got no evidence to give,
no documents, no email.
199
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,240
Alternatives?
No, we really need him.
200
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,800
He's still the only Fujitsu insider
to ever come forward.
201
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,600
I meant ties.
Oh. Er...
202
00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:00,760
Oh, maroon or maroon. Hm?
203
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,880
Oh, I'm not even gonna ask.
204
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,400
One thing I took
from the Select Committee
205
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,440
is it really helps to use your face.
206
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,520
You know, confused,
sceptical, amused.
207
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,320
And that's your masterplan
for the group litigation,
208
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:21,760
make faces at the Post Office?
209
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:29,440
555 sub-postmasters in our group,
210
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,760
and I have to go on first.
211
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:39,280
I do solemnly and sincerely
and truly declare and affirm
212
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,960
that the evidence I shall give
shall be the truth,
213
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,000
the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth.
214
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,000
Good morning, Mr Bates.
215
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,280
Mr Bates, would it be right to say
that in terms of due diligence,
216
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,640
you are quite a careful man?
217
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,880
Is that fair? You're a details man.
218
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:13,440
Yes.
219
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,280
At paragraph 15
of your witness statement,
220
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,800
you refer to being sent
an information sheet.
221
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,800
"The subpostmaster
is personally responsible
222
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:28,960
"for all losses or gains incurred
to Post Office cash or stock."
223
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,720
You were aware you would be
responsible for that loss,
224
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,560
however large it was.
225
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,480
At the time
we took over the post office,
226
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,480
losses weren't a major concern.
227
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:47,640
The original deficit of £1,182...
228
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:49,200
that is a staff error, isn't it?
229
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:50,520
No.
230
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,800
No, that was, er...
231
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,760
that was definitely Horizon,
from my point of view.
232
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,040
Without a shadow of a doubt.
233
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,480
You've got it in your mind
it was Horizon,
234
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,320
and forevermore,
it has been Horizon.
235
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,600
No.
Well, it jumped out.
236
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,040
The errors jumped out.
237
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,280
They couldn't have been
anything else.
238
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,960
I put to you generally
that the overwhelming likelihood
239
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,560
is that these deficits
were most likely caused by error
240
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:23,520
or wrongdoing in your branch
by you or your staff.
241
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,760
That is the Post Office case.
242
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,920
Mr Bates, that is being put to you
243
00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,800
so that you can tell me
what the answer is.
244
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,320
No, My Lord.
245
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:41,680
No.
246
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,400
No further questions. Thank you.
247
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,640
Thank you, Mr Bates.
You are excused.
248
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,080
"A details man".
Might use that at home.
249
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,240
Alan did OK, I think.
Just so glad he went first.
250
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,840
You're gonna be brilliant.
251
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,600
I took over Barking Post Office
when my husband died
252
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,840
on August 3rd, 1999.
253
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,440
So some 19-odd years ago.
Mm.
254
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,360
It's fair to say
your memory of the details
255
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,520
is probably pretty vague.
256
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,520
Is that fair?
No, I don't think so.
257
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,520
Not particularly stunning events,
are they,
258
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,920
like a car crash or something -
is that fair?
259
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,560
If you are talking
about August 1999,
260
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,040
then, yes, they are very similar
to a car crash.
261
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,040
You are talking
about your husband's death?
262
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,560
Yes.
263
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,080
Yes, I... I accept that.
264
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,760
Moving, then, forward
to your suspension
265
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,000
following the £18,000-odd deficit
found on the audit.
266
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,000
Well, I was staggered
that I was suspended.
267
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,200
Absolutely staggered.
268
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,680
I was probably as angry and upset
as I have ever been in my life.
269
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,840
Because, for the last six months,
I had been asking Post Office
270
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,920
to help me find the source
for these alleged shortfalls
271
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,080
in order that I could...
272
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,040
How can I put it?
273
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,360
..that it would stop me
from bombarding them
274
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,840
with phone calls, letters.
275
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:22,360
A lot of people might think,
276
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,880
"Well, I've received this letter.
Let's look at my contract."
277
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,800
Let's look at section 19,
paragraph four,
278
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,760
and see whether
they are entitled to.
279
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,640
Well, I couldn't do that.
280
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,480
I had no entry to my post office
281
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,760
from the day
they did the closing audit.
282
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,920
They took the keys away
and locked them up.
283
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,080
But my point is,
you immediately blame it on Horizon
284
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,560
without really casting your mind
as to other possibilities.
285
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,080
I dispute that completely.
286
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,560
I never used to be an angry person.
287
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,360
And it really works, doesn't it?
I wouldn't know, I don't get angry.
288
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,400
Oh, well,
I should give it a go, Alan.
289
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,760
Otherwise, the stress of all this
might end up killing you.
290
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,440
Well, the Post Office
chose three witnesses,
291
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,120
and we chose three witnesses.
292
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,960
The Post Office has read
555 postmaster statements.
293
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,280
Why they chose me?
294
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,080
So, they chose Mohammad Sabir
295
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:21,560
because he has
an accountancy qualification.
296
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,200
So just watch them try to make him
look stupid as well as dishonest.
297
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,040
Do you accept from me
298
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,240
that being involved
over a period of years
299
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,440
as an assistant accountant
300
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,600
means that I can consider you
as not commercially naive?
301
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,760
I did not understand your question,
please.
302
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,440
Rephrase it, Mr Wentworth.
303
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,160
As at the time
you applied to Post Office, yes,
304
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,160
you were not commercially naive?
305
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,040
My Lord,
English is not my first language.
306
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,200
You had experience
of commercial things.
307
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,480
You weren't...
308
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,480
It's put me on the spot,
trying to rephrase this.
309
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,360
At that time,
310
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,360
I was just thinking
to buy the business, run it,
311
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,120
make my life better
and serve the community.
312
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,760
This was my main ambition.
313
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,840
So if I am clear, honest,
314
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,440
so I don't be afraid of signing
any contract with anybody,
315
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,040
assuming that they are doing
everything for goodness of me.
316
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,040
And I had already positive thinking
about this.
317
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,920
OK, I think you would agree
318
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:34,240
that a deficit of £4,878
is a serious matter.
319
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,960
Do you agree with that?
No, I didn't agree.
320
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,040
I told them everything,
what was the problem.
321
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,760
Have you read all the documents
which I submitted?
322
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,800
I rang the Post Office helpline.
323
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,520
"Please, can somebody ring me
324
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,760
"or come to my office
and resolve this problem?"
325
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,520
But they said,
"We don't believe you.
326
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,200
"We have to suspend you."
327
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,200
I never thought
that I will lose everything
328
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,480
when I will be working
in the post office.
329
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,920
We are supposed to be
the most civilised country.
330
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,640
We don't expect anyone to behave
like the Post Office does.
331
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:09,840
Why they do this?
332
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,920
Well, that's
the million-dollar question.
333
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,560
The QC was very clever.
Pick, pick, picking away at stuff.
334
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,680
You did everything right, Mohammad.
335
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,960
You told the truth,
and that's all that matters.
336
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,720
Truth is truth.
337
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,600
Truth is truth.
Can't hide it.
338
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,280
Well, that was brilliant.
They chose him, and he smashed them.
339
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,200
Just a... pile of ash
where the Post Office used to be.
340
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,480
Well, we've got
Angela van den Bogerd
341
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,200
in the witness box tomorrow.
Yep.
342
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,800
You get to ask the questions.
I do.
343
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,240
And I've got plenty.
344
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,080
We get to see if we picked
the right man for the job.
345
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,240
Miss Van den Bogerd,
346
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,920
if we could please look
at document G43/1.
347
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:02,120
So, this is co-authored by you.
348
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,280
"Horizon Help has, since
its introduction over a decade ago,
349
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,560
"fallen short of delivering
the functionality that was promised
350
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,560
"as part of Horizon roll-out
351
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,240
"and that postmasters and
their assistants desperately need."
352
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,360
Yes.
353
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,800
That is an honest and candid
internal recognition
354
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,160
of the situation, isn't it?
355
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,560
There were shortcomings
in the user experience.
356
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,320
It's...
357
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:31,880
It's clunky,
would be the word I would use.
358
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,440
Clunky?
Mm-hm.
359
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,520
Right. So why don't you mention this
in your witness statement?
360
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,480
I don't...
361
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,760
I suppose the length
of my witness statement, erm...
362
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,680
it's so long anyway that...
363
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,640
Was it your understanding
that there was a restriction
364
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,920
on the length
of your witness statement?
365
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,440
The witness statement in itself
is quite lengthy anyway,
366
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,480
and so...
I suppose it was just myself.
367
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,360
Mr Green.
368
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:18,280
If we could go, please,
to document G38/2.
369
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,120
It says, "January 30, 2015.
370
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,240
"Mrs Vennells asks,
371
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,360
" 'Is it possible
to access the system remotely?'
372
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,560
"I need to say no,
it is not possible,
373
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,360
"and that we are sure of this."
374
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,600
So in 2015, it would be wrong
to say, wouldn't it,
375
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,200
that Post Office couldn't
remotely access Horizon data?
376
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,240
Post Office can't.
377
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,560
Could you do it through Fujitsu?
378
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,920
Through Fujitsu...
379
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:02,800
yes, I can.
380
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:07,480
Yes.
381
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,800
You're going to have to keep
your voice up, I'm afraid.
382
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,360
I'm sorry. Sorry.
383
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,440
I suggest
you are hesitant to accept
384
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,680
anything that is damaging
to Post Office.
385
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,200
That is not the case.
386
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,640
Do you feel pressure to protect
the Post Office brand now?
387
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,240
At this particular moment?
388
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,360
Yes.
No.
389
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,280
Can I just ask one simple question?
390
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,440
What exactly does
"protecting a brand" mean?
391
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,440
It-It... It just means that, erm...
392
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,240
One, it is making sure
that how we do things,
393
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,680
how we behave,
how we interact with people.
394
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,280
And it's...
395
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,200
It's just making sure that,
at all times,
396
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,600
we are maintaining that.
397
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,880
Made it past midnight.
That's pretty good for me.
398
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,000
All the meetings with MPs,
letters to the minister.
399
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,520
More ministers
than you can shake a stick at.
400
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,120
Years and years.
401
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,760
Still, nobody in power
hears a word we say.
402
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,640
What's brought this on?
403
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,640
New Year's Honours list.
God's sake.
404
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,240
Come on, turn it off, details man.
Come to bed.
405
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,440
Paula Vennells has got the CBE.
Joking...
406
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,560
Services to the Post Office.
407
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:51,800
Always another trick
up their sleeves.
408
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,360
I'll see you up there.
409
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,640
The Post Office now admits
they do have remote access,
410
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,400
but they insist it could
never happen without the knowledge
411
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,320
and permission
of the sub-postmaster.
412
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:11,640
Well, they're wrong.
Of course they are.
413
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,080
But it's 15 years ago. More.
414
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:18,360
I... can't remember the details.
415
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,200
I can't help you, Alan.
There must be someone else.
416
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,320
It's not that bad, honestly.
417
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,560
There'll be loads
of other witnesses.
418
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,800
I wasn't senior, Alan. Not at all.
419
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,000
And my girlfriend really doesn't
want me drawing attention to myself.
420
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,440
You just have to talk to the judge.
Ignore everyone else.
421
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,520
You can really help us out here,
Richard,
422
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,080
and still be home for your tea.
423
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,080
I'll only disappoint you.
424
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,000
You'll be fine.
425
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,760
'Jo?'
426
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,160
Bob, what are you doing here?
427
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,440
Oh, I wouldn't miss this
for the world.
428
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,920
Fujitsu technical support
giving evidence under oath.
429
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,160
The guy's quite shy.
Alan's worried about him.
430
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,880
A real-life whistleblower.
431
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,280
It's gonna be dynamite, kid.
Mm.
432
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,200
Mr Roll...
433
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,960
Would you accept
that your recollection of your time
434
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,640
at Fujitsu is hazy?
435
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,360
It is quite hazy.
436
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,240
It could just be my perception
of events from, er...
437
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:44,240
15, 17 years ago.
438
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,960
So you're not saying that you were
439
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,560
routinely encountering
coding issues, are you?
440
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,600
Bugs? No, no.
441
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,720
You don't recall ever
having encountered a bug
442
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,480
that definitely caused
a financial impact?
443
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,000
I don't... recall discovering one,
no.
444
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,360
I'm going to move on
to remote access now, Mr Roll.
445
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,840
My suggestion to you
will be that you never
446
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,160
and would never manually change
a transaction line of data
447
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,480
that a postmaster had keyed in.
448
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,160
No, that is something we did,
as far as I remember it.
449
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,120
But ultimately, the sub-postmaster
would be able to see
450
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,960
what Fujitsu had done, is that true?
451
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,240
Again, my understanding
is that in certain circumstances,
452
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,280
the data would be indis... erm...
453
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,160
Indistinguishable?
454
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,440
Yes.
Is that what you're trying to say?
455
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,280
Yes, my Lord.
456
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,160
You couldn't tell the difference.
457
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,240
No, you... you couldn't tell
the difference.
458
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:56,040
Remote access to the Horizon system
at branch level was extensive.
459
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,760
We had the ability to change data
and change transaction information,
460
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,680
even while the postmaster
was working.
461
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,760
Without the postmaster being aware?
462
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,160
Yes, that is my understanding.
463
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,960
Your understanding?
464
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,400
No.
465
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,200
My recollection.
466
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,880
'Thought he was great in the end.'
467
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,680
I wonder if it's enough.
468
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,400
I asked you a question, Bob,
years ago, when we first met.
469
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,280
"Bob, where did all the money go?"
470
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,640
£36,000, they took off me.
471
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,720
Now, I think -
472
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,040
I can't prove it, Jo, not yet,
but I will -
473
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,720
that the money you gave them
that they claimed you owed them...
474
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,400
hung around in some sort
of suspense account for a while
475
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,000
while they failed to investigate.
476
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,440
And after a couple of years,
your money, everyone's money...
477
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,360
it just showed up
in their profits.
478
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,640
My £36,000 that I didn't steal,
479
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,560
that they actually stole off me
to pay off a debt
480
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,080
that never existed...
481
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,360
is in the Post Office profits.
482
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,080
I just...
483
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:29,120
I mean, are they just incompetent,
Alan, or just evil?
484
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:35,240
Er, well, you know,
comes to the same thing in the end.
485
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,000
Another one?
Please.
486
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,560
Definitely.
487
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,280
The Post Office describes itself
on its own website
488
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,280
as "the nation's
most trusted brand".
489
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,720
Well, as far as these claimants
are concerned,
490
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,720
this might be thought to be
wholly wishful thinking.
491
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,320
The Post Office witnesses
give me the impression
492
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,360
that they simply
cannot allow themselves
493
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,600
to consider the possibility
that the Post Office may be wrong,
494
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:12,280
as the consequences of doing so
are too significant to contemplate.
495
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,280
Angela van den Bogerd did not
always give me frank evidence.
496
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,240
She sought to mislead me.
497
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,880
Her judgment also seemed
to be uniquely exercised
498
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,440
to paint the Post Office in
the most favourable light possible,
499
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,080
regardless of the facts.
500
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:34,040
Mr Bates seemed to me to offer
his evidence honestly and...
501
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:39,080
"has proved himself
to be unreasonable, stubborn
502
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,680
"and a considerable irritant
to the Post Office."
503
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,160
He's got you to a T.
504
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,520
Yeah, yeah.
505
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,240
And the Post Office, too.
506
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,440
Er, "Oppressive, unfair,
excessive secrecy"
507
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,160
and, well, 180,000 other words
just the same.
508
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,120
Sorry, we've got to get back
into court now.
509
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,680
Why?
Something's come up.
510
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,000
Hold on, love.
511
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,920
'I just saw this five minutes ago.'
512
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,320
It's an application for me
to recuse myself
513
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,960
as being the managing judge
in these proceedings.
514
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,920
Mr Wentworth,
would you care to elaborate?
515
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,200
Post Office asked the judge
to sack himself
516
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,200
on the grounds that he's clearly
biased against the Post Office.
517
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,840
Amazing. This is the best day ever.
It's like a gift from heaven.
518
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,120
Proof they're desperate.
Absolutely.
519
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:27,320
I mean, in my world, Alan,
520
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,960
the most, er,
catastrophic mistake you can make
521
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,880
is to make unfounded allegations
of bias against the judge.
522
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,120
I mean, you just... you...
I've never even...
523
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,320
They're idiots.
524
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,760
I bet you it wasn't the lawyers
who decided to do this.
525
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,920
I bet it came
from the Post Office boardroom.
526
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,320
Oh, well,
to be a fly on the wall, eh?
527
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:46,760
Well, we're winning.
528
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,080
Well, yes, but...
529
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,720
Oh, I should have known there
was a "but" coming over the hill.
530
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,840
Well, the trial stops now.
531
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,160
It'll be weeks,
well, months of arguments to follow
532
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,880
on whether we need a new judge.
533
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,600
And it's a delay the Post Office
can afford, but we can't.
534
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,400
That's why they're doing this,
to make us run out of money.
535
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,840
Alan... we have run out of money.
536
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,720
No.
537
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,040
No, no, we can't stop now.
538
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,360
No-one's talking about stopping.
Not at all.
539
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:36,720
But... it is time to start...
540
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,080
negotiating a settlement.
541
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,040
I think you're forgetting
542
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,360
I've negotiated
with this mob before,
543
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,440
and people have died.
544
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,760
Well, people are still dying.
545
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,840
You know this, all right,
but nobody else does.
546
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,680
There's millions of people
out there who've never heard of us,
547
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,680
who don't know about the suicides
and the... the ruined lives.
548
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,760
God knows how many victims
who are...
549
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,240
who are still too scared
to come forward.
550
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,320
Ha! I haven't spent 20 years
battling these bastards
551
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,000
to pack up now
and give the Post Office license
552
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,800
to start running amok
and destroying lives.
553
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,840
Again.
554
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,480
Well...
555
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,360
Well, I-I've said enough.
556
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,720
We have to win.
557
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,800
Alan, we just did.
558
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,120
This is what winning looks like.
559
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,880
You're talking
as though this is a defeat,
560
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,720
and it's... it's really not.
561
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,240
This is just what happens
towards the end of any litigation -
562
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:51,840
we get around the table.
563
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,080
And if we don't
and we lose in that arena,
564
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,320
we lose everything
we've achieved so far
565
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,040
and the clock sets back to zero.
566
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:04,080
So... it's about knowing when
to stop and when to negotiate.
567
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,600
So that's it, give up now.
568
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,120
No, no. We... settle.
569
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,480
Same thing.
570
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,440
Mrs Vennells? Paula Vennells?
571
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,480
Yes?
Ned Foster, Daily Mail.
572
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,600
Would you like to say anything
to the postmasters
573
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,440
who've been through
such a long legal battle?
574
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,520
No. I really find this unacceptable.
575
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,480
Would you like to apologise to them?
Will you just... go away?
576
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,400
So, you won't apologise to them?
No, pl... Go away.
577
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,360
Well, can I confirm, then,
Mrs Vennells,
578
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,960
you're saying you will not apologise
to the postmasters
579
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,920
after everything
that they've been through?
580
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,560
'After an epic legal battle
581
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,680
'during which the Post Office
tried and failed
582
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,680
'to remove the judge,
the sub-postmasters have won
583
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,320
'on almost every count.
584
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,760
'Their victory
comes with a compensation package
585
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,960
'worth £58 million.'
586
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,240
Well... You took them on,
and you won.
587
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,440
And I cannot overstate enough
quite the scale of this achievement.
588
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,000
It is more than we could ever have
dreamed of from the beginning.
589
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,120
It is an absolutely
astonishing victory.
590
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,840
In my professional career,
591
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,840
I have never seen anything
quite like this, so...
592
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,200
Having... Having said that,
593
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:44,920
I-I do need to make you aware that,
erm, inevitably,
594
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,760
er, there are legal fees
and court costs
595
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,960
and our obligations to our funders
that will eat into that total.
596
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,320
So...
597
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,760
The amount that will be left
after that to, erm...
598
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,080
divide amongst yourselves
as compensation
599
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,600
will be in the region of,
erm, £12 million.
600
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,760
Wait, 12 million between 555?
601
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,080
That... That's, what, 20...
20 grand each?
602
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,880
On average, yes.
£20,000?
603
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,920
That... That...
604
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,280
That won't touch the sides
of what we've lost.
605
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,280
Listen, I understand,
but what you must remember
606
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,520
is that today's settlement
opens a lot of doors
607
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,440
so that people with convictions
can now use these judgments
608
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,160
to help with their appeals
going forward forever, so...
609
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,120
But what about us?
610
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,840
What this also means
is that those sub-postmasters
611
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,400
who've been too scared
to come forward up to now
612
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,640
will be able to do so without fear.
613
00:35:54,400 --> 00:36:00,560
Friends... we did talk this
over and over again,
614
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,320
and we knew we might not see
a penny, but...
615
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,280
we decided, we voted to go ahead.
616
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,200
They got paid, right?
617
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,080
Excuse me? Excuse me?
618
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,240
Excuse me!
619
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,760
I've been in court every single day,
620
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,840
and I saw us with my own eyes
winning the most massive victory.
621
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:42,320
And that's all down
to Alan and James and Patrick
622
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,000
and their hard work.
623
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:48,320
So could you just all... stop it?
624
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,120
It's never gonna end, is it?
625
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,080
I wouldn't mind, but our legal team
worked for free a lot of the time,
626
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,520
and none of them,
not even the funders,
627
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,600
took anything like the fees
they were due.
628
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,400
Well, anyway, it's not about money,
is it?
629
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,160
Well, it is, partly.
630
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,520
But mostly...
631
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,640
You know what I mean.
632
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,520
You won, Alan.
633
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,720
You set out to prove Horizon
is faulty, and you did it.
634
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:38,880
You won.
635
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,400
But everyone is still skint.
636
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:43,480
Alan...
637
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,680
Lee, I want to...
We're not attacking you, Alan.
638
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:55,520
Everyone can see you did your best.
Thank you.
639
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,400
I mean that.
640
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,160
Don't listen to the angry people.
They're upset. Tired.
641
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,160
I know. It's all right.
642
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,720
Just remember, we'd be nowhere
without you, Mr Bates.
643
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,040
You're a... a legend.
644
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:28,680
Huh...
645
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:32,520
There from the beginning...
and you never wavered.
646
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,400
Never. Not for all those long years.
647
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,640
Just been a tower of strength
and new ideas.
648
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,840
Ooh, am I embarrassing you?
649
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,360
Listen, Jo...
650
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,520
All this evidence
the litigation has dug up,
651
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,640
all the secrets
coming out of the woodwork...
652
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,520
well, we got to the truth.
653
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,520
It belongs to us now. Use it.
Prove your innocence.
654
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,000
Go to the Court of Appeal
and show the world
655
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,800
what a miscarriage of justice
really looks like.
656
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,360
All right, Alan.
657
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,440
But... what are you gonna do?
658
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,520
Oh, er... There's a pint of beer
in Wales with my name on it.
659
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,120
I think people are bitter.
660
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,120
They're angry. And I get it, I do.
661
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,560
I'm bitter. I'm angry.
662
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,200
And I care about the money,
of course I do.
663
00:39:57,240 --> 00:39:59,680
I care about the home
we should have had,
664
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:01,520
the life we could have had, and...
665
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,800
But I care about justice, too.
666
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,880
And you, I care about you,
667
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,160
so don't you dare
go blaming yourself.
668
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:11,760
I don't.
669
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,040
You have absolutely nothing
to blame yourself for.
670
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,480
And that's why I don't blame myself.
671
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,600
Come on, let's get home.
672
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,440
I suppose I've... I've never seen
the point of getting angry, Suzanne.
673
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,960
I-I treat it like a job, you know?
674
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,640
Something I lift off the shelf
and then put back after.
675
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,040
Funnily enough,
I don't really remember that part,
676
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,080
the "putting it back on the shelf"
part.
677
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,960
More the "seven days a week,
365 days a year" part.
678
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,440
And also, Alan, jobs are things
that people are paid to do.
679
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,920
Yeah, something went a bit wrong
there.
680
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,560
Not actually giving up at all,
are you?
681
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,320
Well...
682
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,440
there's the small matter
of every one of the 555
683
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,120
getting their money back.
684
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,720
And then there's the small matter
of the right people
685
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,360
holding up their hands
to take the blame.
686
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:14,560
For the Vennells?
687
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,000
The British government.
688
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,840
Why? Well, because the government
is the one and only owner
689
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,840
of the good ship Post Office,
690
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,120
which doesn't have a penny
in its coffers
691
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,760
owing to the fact
it's spent it all fighting us.
692
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,400
All of which means that in the end,
693
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,440
Her Majesty's Government is going
to have to hold up its hands,
694
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,240
accept responsibility
for this fiasco
695
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,400
and pay us the compensation
we deserve.
696
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,520
When people say "the government",
they really mean "the taxpayer",
697
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,640
but nobody would begrudge you.
698
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,400
We established the truth
in a court of law, James,
699
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,560
and now I'm focusing on the 555
700
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,120
who need their lives
putting back together.
701
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,400
You don't give up, do you,
you awkward sod?
702
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:57,760
Well...
703
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,160
Someone's got to be.
704
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,560
Alan, cast your mind back,
if you will,
705
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,200
to the summer of 2013.
706
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:08,680
Er, Bob was doing his review.
707
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:10,880
And you were fighting me
every inch of the way.
708
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,360
I was right, though.
709
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,720
And at the same time,
the Post Office,
710
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,920
in secret and at the highest level,
711
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,680
were commissioning
independent legal advice.
712
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:25,800
This lawyer's report
establishes beyond doubt
713
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,720
that the Post Office lied to
and were in contempt of Parliament.
714
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,200
You were right.
715
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:33,920
It also proves that all the time
716
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,960
we were wading through treacle
trying to investigate,
717
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,800
senior Post Office executives
were shredding documents
718
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,320
and failing to disclose
that they knew
719
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:43,880
there were unsafe convictions.
720
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,880
Did... Did Paula know?
721
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,640
It's not possible to say
with any certainty.
722
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,720
'I want to say
that I'm deeply sorry
723
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,040
'for those sub-postmasters
who have suffered.
724
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,400
'I have read many of their stories,
and they are harrowing.
725
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,280
'They are with me every day.
726
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:11,160
'I was and remain deeply disturbed
by what has come to light.
727
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,800
'It is contrary to what I believe
through my time
728
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:19,680
'as CEO of Post Office
between 2012 and 2019.
729
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,120
'I wish to state for the record
that I do not accept
730
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,200
'any personal criminal misconduct.'
731
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,720
Morning, Jo. Good luck.
Oh, thank you.
732
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:55,160
This judgment concerns
42 men and women...
733
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,560
who were all prosecuted
by their employer
734
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,520
and convicted
of crimes of dishonesty.
735
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,600
Josephine Hamilton pleaded guilty
to 14 counts of false accounting.
736
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:15,200
There was no examination of the data
for bugs, errors or defects.
737
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,080
There was no proof of an actual loss
738
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,440
as opposed to
an Horizon-generated shortage.
739
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:26,720
Even more alarming,
740
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,160
Post Office Limited's
own investigator had reported
741
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,480
there was no evidence of theft.
742
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,480
We conclude Mrs Hamilton's
prosecution was unfair
743
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,280
and an affront to justice.
744
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,360
We allow her appeal.
745
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,520
We quash her convictions.
746
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,200
Notwithstanding his guilty plea,
Noel Thomas's conviction is unsafe.
747
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,320
We allow his appeal.
748
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,240
His prosecution was unfair
and an affront to justice.
749
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,760
In the case of Susan Rudkin,
we allow her appeal.
750
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,640
Her conviction is unsafe.
751
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,560
Very sadly,
three of the applicants -
752
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,640
Julian Wilson, Peter Holmes
and Dawn O'Connell -
753
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,440
have not lived to see the outcome
of their appeals.
754
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,160
'Did the Post Office
bosses go to prison too?'
755
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:25,400
'No. No, no.
756
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,400
'I've been to jail.
I know what it's like.
757
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,080
'It doesn't do any good.
758
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,320
'Hit them in their pockets.
Take their money off them.
759
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,600
'It's the only language
they'll understand!'
760
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,280
Good lad. On you go.
761
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,040
You should have gone down
for these appeals.
762
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:44,560
It's not about me.
763
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,400
Where's Jo?
764
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:50,960
There she is.
765
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,440
'Jo? What do you think
The Post Office should say?'
766
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,040
'Oh, I dunno. Erm...
767
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,360
'We've waited so long for this day,
and some of us didn't make it.
768
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,960
'People have died, you know,
769
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,480
'and all we ever wanted
was for the truth to come out
770
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,520
'and for someone to listen.'
771
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,400
It didn't have to be like this.
772
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,840
All these good people,
their lives in ruins.
773
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,440
I mean, look at us.
Do we look like criminals?
774
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:16,160
Bob!
775
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,320
Bob!
776
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,600
Congratulations, Jo.
777
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,040
Not just unfair, but look at this!
778
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,240
"An affront to justice."
That's, like, twice as bad.
779
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,360
No, that's 100 times as bad.
780
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,280
Oh, you were like lambs
to the slaughter,
781
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,120
and they were villains and idiots.
782
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:38,520
Hey, you.
783
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,760
You make me cry, you're a bad man.
784
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,440
'Josephine Hamilton and others
versus the Post Office!
785
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,960
'Look, Alan!'
786
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,480
'Look what we did!
Look what you did!'
787
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,200
Come on! Yes! Yes!
788
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,640
It's jaw-droppingly significant.
789
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,840
The judges have not only ruled
that Jo and the others
790
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,960
were wrongfully convicted,
but even worse -
791
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,000
that the Post Office decision
to prosecute them was so wrong
792
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,280
that it amounts to an affront
to the conscience of the court.
793
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,080
This has to be
the widest miscarriage of justice
794
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,280
in British legal history.
795
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:14,960
I know what you're thinking.
796
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,440
Well, it's not over, is it?
797
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,880
Well, how about we...
just allow ourselves to enjoy it?
798
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,560
OK.
799
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,720
Alan?
Er, just one email.
800
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,840
Minister of postal affairs.
801
00:48:53,320 --> 00:49:00,000
Re legal costs
for our 555 claimants.
802
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:07,080
Total now due: £46,843,853.
803
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,960
Plus another month's interest at 8%.
804
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,600
Mounts up.
805
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,800
On what planet is the government
going to pay our legal costs?
806
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,600
They'll have to.
They own the Post Office.
807
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,160
Sole shareholder.
808
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,360
The only one.
809
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,680
The only one awkward enough
to sit at his computer,
810
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:33,880
making trouble for 20 years.
811
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,000
20 years so far.
812
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,800
Just think of it as a hobby
that got out of hand.
813
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:01,840
Subtitles by accessibility@itv.com
63156
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.