Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,359
The computer system Post
Office spent an arm and a leg on
2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:04,400
is faulty.
3
00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,000
I haven't got that money!
4
00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,720
The losses must have been caused
by Mr Castleton's own error.
5
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:14,240
You're inside subpostmasters'
Horizon... and he doesn't know?
6
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,120
We're ready to mount
and fund an independent review.
7
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,240
Mr Rutherford's organisation,
Second Sight,
8
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,520
will be working for us, the MPs,
and therefore indirectly for you.
9
00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,800
They had no right
to take you to court at all.
10
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,280
They destroyed our whole life...
for a lie?
11
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,040
Alan, it's Paula Vennells.
12
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,720
Where do we go from here?
13
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,760
Sorry, Martin, I hit every red
light on the way here, mate.
14
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,680
You get later every day.
Oh, come on.
15
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,560
You don't get no more cheerful, pal.
16
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,240
Just need to get home.
Ah, we all do, mate. Long day?
17
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,720
They're all long days.
18
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,800
Any specials with these?
19
00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,800
Giro pouch. Cheque pouch.
20
00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,680
I'll have to come back for them.
Yeah.
21
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,080
Oh.
22
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,640
Please! No... don't...!
23
00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,280
Don't!
24
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,680
Stay there! Don't look at me!
25
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,800
Come on, hurry up!
26
00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,200
Please!
Hurry up!
27
00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,360
Go, go, go, go!
28
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,320
Martin, let's talk about
what happened.
29
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:06,000
The total loss to Post Office funds
that day were £54,354.96.
30
00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,280
The police were there
in five minutes.
31
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,440
They got most of it back.
32
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,680
This is a culpability interview,
Martin.
33
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,360
You had the parcel hatch open
and the safe.
34
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,320
In accordance with section 12,
paragraph 18
35
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,880
of the subpostmasters' contract...
- Martin?
36
00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:24,000
..you're bound to take
reasonable precautions
37
00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,040
to safeguard official cash
and property.
38
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,800
You are therefore contractually
liable for an amount of...
39
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,000
Seven and a half thousand pounds?
40
00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,480
So now the armed robbery
is our fault, too.
41
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,200
It wasn't the robbery
that got me sacked.
42
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,000
Sacked? What?
43
00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,360
I'm already under investigation
for the Horizon shortfalls,
44
00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,440
and now the robbery.
45
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:48,720
Three months' notice.
46
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:50,840
Oh, Martin.
47
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,680
For four years of, every day,
opening that door, waiting for...
48
00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,720
For what?
49
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,240
For the day to end.
50
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,880
"Terminated for continued
poor accounting performance,
51
00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,240
"not operating individual
stock units correctly.
52
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,720
' "Failure to make good losses
in a timely manner."
53
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:18,960
'They're just going on'
54
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,160
and on about the contract
and blaming Martin for everything,
55
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,400
never accepting
it's Horizon's fault.
56
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,680
How big did the shortfalls get?
57
00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:34,120
£61,000 altogether.
58
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,400
'They've had our savings already.
59
00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,040
'And our parents'.'
60
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,720
Alan, we've nothing left to give.
61
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,040
OK.
- Wow!
62
00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,360
Every time we meet,
there's more of us...
63
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,760
There's the vegetarian ones...
Thank you.
64
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,240
..and we're always ravenous.
65
00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,440
Have we eaten Alan?
66
00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,760
That phone is a full-time job.
67
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,560
And the effect it had
on the family was...
68
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,200
I mean, not just me and Lisa,
but, you know, the kids, we...
69
00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,320
I mean, we had to move
the schools, you know,
70
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,400
cos of the bullying.
71
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,960
And then our daughter,
Millie-Jo, she hit her teens and...
72
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,240
just stopped eating.
73
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,760
It was anorexia.
74
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,680
And they say don't blame yourselves.
But you do.
75
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,600
Yeah, of course you do.
And nobody understands, do they?
76
00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,240
Jo's always been very kind to us,
hasn't she?
77
00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:30,720
We call her, "Mum".
Yeah.
78
00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,320
If she's Mum, what's Alan?
Dad?
79
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,440
We don't call him Dad.
80
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,160
Alan's the godfather.
81
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,640
Shall we, eh, crack on?
82
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,720
Yep. The Don has spoken.
83
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,040
You all right?
Yeah.
84
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:52,120
The thing is, Alan, I'm not sure
my computer was really the problem.
85
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,080
I just had endless power cuts.
86
00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,240
36 of them in one day.
87
00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:01,800
If you get a power cut in the
middle of a transaction, poof!
88
00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:03,560
No wonder it comes out wrong.
89
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,560
You see, erm, my husband died...
90
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,720
and I took over.
91
00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,480
It was just before
Horizon was installed.
92
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,240
But then they didn't put the new
electricity lines in properly.
93
00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:19,880
Oh, Pam. Really?
94
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,680
Doesn't it just go to show
how absolutely bloody useless
95
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,600
they can be about
the simplest bloody things?
96
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,000
I told them
when they closed me down, I said...
97
00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,440
"If you can prove
that I stole that money,
98
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,520
"then send the police round,
send them now."
99
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,080
Since then, I have not slept.
100
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,280
And I've been scared
every waking moment,
101
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,760
expecting that knock on the door.
102
00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,240
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
103
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,960
You've got nothing to
be sorry for, Pam.
104
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,040
I'm just so... I'm just so angry.
105
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,680
I hate being so angry!
106
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,000
If I ever say
I'm going to give this up,
107
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,440
remind me about people like Pam.
108
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,040
So, to, er, to recap, er,
109
00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,800
my chat with Paula Vennells has
resulted in a new investigation
110
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,280
and mediation scheme which
will allow all of us to apply
111
00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,280
for the compensation we deserve.
112
00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,520
Even people like me and Jo?
113
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,760
Alan's got their commitment here
in black and white.
114
00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:48,120
The Post Office says
you may put your case
115
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,040
through the mediation scheme,
116
00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,800
even if you've already received
a police caution
117
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,200
or been subject to a criminal
prosecution or conviction.
118
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:00,680
If we got our money back.
119
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,120
And our good names.
120
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,320
An apology, even.
121
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,920
Steady on.
Or just getting to the truth.
122
00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,320
So, with your agreement,
123
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,760
Kay and I will defend your interests
every step of the way.
124
00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,120
We will look into each individual
case and fight our corner.
125
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,480
I know, but, Alan,
do you trust them?
126
00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,200
I mean, do we trust them? Really?
127
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,760
Well...
128
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,840
they're putting money
and effort into it,
129
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,960
and it's coming from the top, so...
130
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,000
Well, it's got to be worth a try.
131
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,200
Shall we have a vote?
132
00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,800
All those in favour?
133
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:54,560
Great.
134
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:55,720
42 pence change.
135
00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,920
Book of six first-class stamps,
please. There you go, thank you.
136
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,320
£3.60.
Sorry?
137
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,320
£3.60.
138
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,960
'For a long time,
he suspected the staff, you know,
139
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,760
'of stealing from the tills.
140
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,040
'The bad feeling
that's still causing.
141
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,920
'But if it wasn't them,
then it had to be his fault,
142
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,840
'like he's stupid, which he isn't.'
143
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,360
That was before - before we knew
about the Horizon thing.
144
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,640
Can I talk to him?
145
00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:40,560
'Well, he won't talk to me
about it, even now.'
146
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,480
It drives me mad.
147
00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,440
I know he's got depression.
148
00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:50,840
He's a proud father, and I think
he thinks he's failed us.
149
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,360
'Failed our family.'
150
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,040
Gina...
151
00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,760
put him on.
152
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,120
Love.
153
00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,360
It's Alan Bates.
154
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,960
He wants to talk to you.
155
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,680
Please, Martin.
156
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,240
Martin?
157
00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:33,760
'Yes.'
158
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,000
Listen. Martin...
159
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,520
you're not alone.
160
00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:41,160
There's a lot of us, and...
161
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,600
'there's a new scheme
you can apply for.
162
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,840
'I'm going to send you the forms.
163
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,200
'Martin, you might get
some of your money back.'
164
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,000
Erm...
165
00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:52,920
I can't talk to you
right now.
166
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,480
Ma...
167
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,040
People are trying to help here!
168
00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:00,920
'I'm so sorry. Erm...'
169
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,440
He's just... He's...
'It's OK, Gina.'
170
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,280
I'll send you the forms,
but get him to apply.
171
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,320
It's important.
172
00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,360
I'll try.
173
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,680
Bloody traffic.
174
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,840
Hi.
Oh, hi.
175
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,360
I'm a little late for a meeting
with Susan Crichton.
176
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,520
Bob. Good to see you.
177
00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,120
Susan's left us.
178
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:33,640
Why?
179
00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:36,160
New times, new opportunities.
180
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,760
Moving forward,
I'll be your main point of contact.
181
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,040
'This is Susan Crichton.
I have left the Post Office.
182
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,000
'Thank you for NOT leaving
a message.'
183
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,480
Bob...
184
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,120
we need to talk.
185
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,400
'I'm not bloody signing up
to this nonsense.'
186
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,320
The Post Office want me to stay on,
but it's pointless.
187
00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,040
They've unilaterally taken away
our access to
188
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,680
the legal and prosecution files.
189
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,040
I can't investigate in a blindfold
with both hands tied behind my back.
190
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,200
Alan, professionally,
I just can't do it.
191
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:10,920
Bob, grit your teeth.
192
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,840
We can't do this without you.
193
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,560
I don't know
why you're doing it at all.
194
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,200
You do know why.
We have to go to mediation
195
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,160
because we can't afford to go
it alone.
196
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,760
You're an idiot to trust them, Alan.
197
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,120
I think they're mostly
just a bunch of lying bastards.
198
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,160
And I think they're wasting
your time and mine.
199
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,480
Bob, if you walk away now,
200
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,400
you'll never find out
which of those bastards IS lying,
201
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,400
what they knew and when.
202
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,640
And you'll never find out what
happens at the end of the story.
203
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,240
We must both be mad.
204
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,000
We are. Pint?
205
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,280
Big day tomorrow.
206
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,480
Your appeal against dismissal.
207
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,720
Martin.
208
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,880
Why don't I run you a bath?
It'll relax you.
209
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,560
I'm all right. I'm OK, I'm OK.
210
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,040
Please let me wash these clothes,
you've been wearing them for days.
211
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,440
Don't you wanna wash your hair,
love? No. Stop.
212
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,120
For tomorrow!
Gina.
213
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,640
It's a big day.
214
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:26,320
All I'm saying is...
Gina... Gina...
215
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,400
we could just make a little bit
of an effort to look nice.
216
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,280
Gina, leave me alone, please.
217
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:32,960
OK.
218
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:43,680
'We've been over this.'
219
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,360
A parcel hatch is about that big.
220
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,400
Then you've got a sack of mail,
which is...
221
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,560
You know how big
a sack of mail is, yeah?
222
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,880
Once they were in with weapons,
even if the safe was closed,
223
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,640
what would you do if they threatened
you and said, "Open the safe!"?
224
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,720
I hope you're having
a fabulous morning.
225
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,680
The time is now coming up to 6:20AM,
226
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,560
and it's time
for a little traffic update.
227
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,160
It looks like there's congestion
on the M62,
228
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,800
and it's building up
to the Runcorn turn-off.
229
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,080
Martin?
230
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,400
You're off early, love.
231
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:28,720
Sorry.
232
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,320
Morning.
Where is he?
233
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,760
We don't know.
Martin?
234
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,200
It's not working.
I know it's not the other one.
235
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,240
It's...
Are you Mrs Griffiths?
236
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,240
Can we have a word in private?
N...
237
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,000
Yes.
238
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:14,840
OK.
239
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,880
No, I...
240
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,080
Hmm. Of course.
241
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,080
Thanks for letting me know.
242
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,240
He never regained consciousness.
243
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:41,840
God.
244
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,080
Gina's had to agree
to switch off life support.
245
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,880
Oh, Alan!
246
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,120
Blood on their hands now.
247
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,280
He had kids, Lee.
248
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,120
I know.
249
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,640
I expect he thought
he was doing them a favour.
250
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,000
Are you doing it, ever?
No, no.
251
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,200
No. Not really.
252
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,400
Sorry. SOBS: Sorry.
253
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,600
..think about it. I'm sorry.
254
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,440
Don't you...
don't you ever do that!
255
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:18,320
I can't have you feeling bad about
this for the rest of your life.
256
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,040
I'd have just walked away.
257
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,640
I could have just shut the shop.
258
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:38,920
Just put us on a slow boat
to China. I could have done that.
259
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,960
And they'd have chased us all the
way to China for that money, Lee.
260
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,560
They were never going to let go.
261
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:49,600
Hey.
262
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,480
I know you did it for us.
263
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,680
I can't think straight.
264
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,680
I don't know what to do.
265
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,080
It's really very good of you
to come.
266
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,320
We're all so sorry for your loss.
267
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,240
It was four days
before his notice ran out,
268
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,840
and he still hadn't told the staff
he'd been sacked.
269
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,200
Yes, it's very hard.
270
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,680
And his appeal
271
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,520
against being fined for the robbery,
it didn't come to anything.
272
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,560
They didn't decide one way
or the other.
273
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,680
Stressful.
274
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,600
Obviously.
275
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,880
I used to get so cross with him,
Angela.
276
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,680
I never did understand the problem,
277
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,520
and he couldn't explain it,
just every morning going to work
278
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:41,720
and saying he was desperate.
279
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,600
He was really desperate.
280
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,680
Every morning, the same words.
281
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,760
"I hate it."
282
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,080
"I can't bear it."
283
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,280
For years.
284
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,920
Can you imagine?
285
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,240
We, er...
286
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,360
we're going to do right by you,
Gina.
287
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,880
You can rely on us.
288
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,440
Yeah.
289
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,040
So, as we launch
this mediation scheme,
290
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,160
I can confirm our agreement
291
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,880
that Martin Griffiths' case
will be dealt with
292
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,000
as a priority by this working group.
293
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,760
Now, you've also received
a request from the family
294
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,280
that any approaches to Gina
should come through me.
295
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,200
Yes. Yes, we are happy
to agree to this, too.
296
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,560
Shall we declare this mediation
scheme up and running? Yes.
297
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,080
We have a long list
of cases to examine.
298
00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:59,720
So let's get started.
299
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:04,800
Right, then, start with Martin.
300
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,840
First things first...
301
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,560
Mr Griffiths.
302
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,360
'Profits falling, Mrs Vennells.
303
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,480
'Government subsidy on its way out.
304
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,160
'That means a reckoning
is on the horizon, does it not?'
305
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,920
'It does, absolutely.'
306
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,360
And the whole point
about this investment programme
307
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,120
is to make sure we have models
that are commercially sustainable.
308
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,120
'And my ambition would be...'
Yes.
309
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,000
'..that within three to four
years' time...' Horizon.
310
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,400
..the Post Office doesn't need
to take taxpayers' money
311
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,600
to support those post offices
that can be commercially profitable.
312
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,920
'So, Paula,
if you don't mind me asking,
313
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,120
'you're CEO of the Post Office...'
Ask her about Horizon.
314
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,400
'..but you're also a priest
in the Church of England.
315
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,440
'How do you combine
those two roles?'
316
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,080
Very good, thank you.
317
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:50,680
Good to see you.
Thank you very much.
318
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,400
Just one thing.
This, erm, Horizon business.
319
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,360
Anything in it?
I beg your pardon?
320
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,880
Horizon.
Some lurid allegations out there.
321
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:05,640
Well, er...
322
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,840
Well, after two and a half years
of investigations,
323
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,080
it is now clear
that the Horizon system is robust
324
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,480
and works as it should.
325
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,160
Thank you.
326
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,640
'And God said to Solomon...'
327
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,360
"Ask for whatever
you want me to give you."
328
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,240
And Solomon said...
329
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,600
"Give your servant
a discerning heart
330
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,000
"to govern your people
331
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,240
"and to distinguish
between right and wrong."
332
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,640
The Lord was pleased
that Solomon had asked for this.
333
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,320
So God said to him...
334
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:50,720
"I will do what you have asked.
335
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,000
"I will give you
a wise and discerning heart."
336
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,800
I've been preparing for this
mediation hearing for months.
337
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,680
You will remember
that I asked to see this data,
338
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,240
the ARQ data from your system,
339
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,360
so that I could see
if it matched up to my data
340
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,840
from my till in my branch.
341
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,600
I kept everything, you see.
342
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,880
Now, you told me
343
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,560
I wouldn't be capable
of interpreting the ARQ data
344
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,400
because I was a silly woman
or something.
345
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,720
Anyway, may I direct you
to page seven?
346
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,680
Now, you will clearly see
a two-hour period
347
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,320
when money alterations
were being put in,
348
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:44,160
but not by me,
because I was serving customers.
349
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,520
There is no functionality
in the Horizon system
350
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,360
to remotely access branch terminals.
351
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,280
I just proved there is!
352
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,480
Mrs Stubbs,
we have to tell you now that,
353
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,640
at this mediation meeting,
354
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,800
we are under no legal
or moral obligation
355
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,120
to do anything whatsoever.
356
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,040
And we are working on the principle
of the contract,
357
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,680
which says that if you lose money,
you repay it.
358
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,120
Well...
359
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,840
I'm finished with this, actually.
360
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,640
I'm finished with you.
361
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,400
See, I think you're lying to me.
362
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,680
Mrs Stubbs, calm...
And I KNOW you're patronising me.
363
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,120
And I'm going to tell
the whole world what you are like.
364
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,120
May I remind you that you have
signed a non-disclosure agreement?
365
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,160
I'll talk to anyone who will listen,
I'll stand up with all my papers,
366
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,440
and I will prove
you lied about this.
367
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,880
Mrs Stubbs, this will have
legal ramifications... Oh!
368
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,880
You want to take me to court?
I couldn't give a toss!
369
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,960
'The way they treat people...
370
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,480
'They are despicable!
371
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,200
'I have never, ever been made
to feel like this...'
372
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,080
'..in my entire life.
373
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,840
Pam? Pam?
374
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,720
You're... You're breaking up.
375
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,560
I mean, are they lying
or... or just stupid?
376
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,840
Hello?
377
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,840
For a while there,
right at the start of mediation...
378
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,240
you got close to trusting them,
didn't you?
379
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,040
Maybe...
380
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,160
despite every awful story
they've heard,
381
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,880
despite all the work we've done,
382
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,600
they still don't get it.
383
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,000
They actually believe they're right.
384
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,320
I understand your impatience,
of course I do.
385
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:46,880
But, Alan, really?
386
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,000
Four closely typed
pages of complaint?
387
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,600
"Finding the truth is the last thing
they're interested in"?
388
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,520
Well, that's been our experience
of their investigation.
389
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,040
Well, will you at least acknowledge
390
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,680
that, before writing to
the minister,
391
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,000
it might possibly have been useful
to raise your concerns with Paula?
392
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,840
Martin Griffiths is dead.
393
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,880
Yes, I know.
394
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,040
I, too, am concerned
about the length of time
395
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,240
mediation is taking,
but Paula is very exercised.
396
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,880
I'm sorry, James, but, ha, these
mediation hearings are a joke.
397
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,880
Well, let's just ask Paula
about that, shall we?
398
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,000
'No, we have not dragged our feet.'
399
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,400
I've had 22 people working on this,
full-time, for more than a year.
400
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,160
But not a single case finalised.
401
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,280
And now I am told
that people are walking out
402
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,720
of their mediation meetings.
403
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,720
Yes, it has taken longer
than we would've liked.
404
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,640
As chief executive
of the Post Office,
405
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,880
I could not put this scheme in place
and not do it properly.
406
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,920
The system... and the people
who work in our branches
407
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,320
are too important for that.
408
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,480
Well, at least we can agree
on that one.
409
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,080
Let's be clear,
we still have allegations here
410
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:05,920
of miscarriage of justice.
411
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,720
Our lawyers advise the correct route
412
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,600
for challenges
to criminal prosecutions
413
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,080
is via the Criminal Cases
Review Commission... Hold on.
414
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:16,360
Hold on.
..to the Appeal Court.
415
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,320
No, you made promises, Paula.
You promised me personally
416
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:21,640
that my constituent, Jo Hamilton,
417
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,680
whom I believe was wrongly convicted
and with whom all of this started,
418
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,560
would be eligible for mediation.
419
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,160
Our lawyers advise
that no mediation scheme
420
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,280
has the power to overturn
a criminal conviction.
421
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,840
Paula, this is quite wrong.
422
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,040
You have broken your word to me.
423
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,880
And you have broken your word
to the subpostmasters.
424
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,560
You have broken your word
to Parliament.
425
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,080
'Post Office has broken its word
426
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:56,880
'to Members of Parliament
in so many different respects.
427
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,800
'It may, of course, be that
the trade of subpostmastering
428
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,680
'was infiltrated
by a sudden rash of criminals.
429
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,680
'I have met a lot of these people,
and I personally do not believe it.
430
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,440
'Frankly, I no longer trust
the Post Office
431
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,080
'and will not be negotiating
with it further.
432
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,960
'It has spent public money
on a mediation scheme
433
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,480
'that it has set out to sabotage.'
434
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,160
He says he can get some interest
from the select committee.
435
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,720
Oh, not another talking shop.
436
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,560
Personally,
I'm looking forward to it.
437
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,920
Probably more than Paula.
438
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,040
Is it possible to
access the system remotely or not?
439
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,240
I hope it is
that we know it is not possible,
440
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,600
and that we're able to explain
why that is.
441
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,880
I need to be able to say,
"No, it is not possible,
442
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,800
"and we're sure of this
because of X, X, X."
443
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,720
I need the facts.
444
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,280
That's Paula.
445
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,360
She looks very smart.
446
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,400
Very corporate.
447
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,240
Who's the other one?
448
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,720
Angela van den Bogerd.
449
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,440
The gruesome twosome.
450
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,520
Don't they have any blokes
at the Post Office?
451
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,320
'I have spent a lot
of the past 12 months...'
452
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,840
Yes! Come on, Bob.
453
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,360
..requesting access to documents
that have been challenged.
454
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,400
One issue we're looking into relates
to Fujitsu's office in Bracknell.
455
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,720
Now, we first requested
documents relating to that
456
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,880
almost two years ago,
457
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,560
and we have still not been provided
with those documents.
458
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,920
Erm, may I respond?
459
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,040
We did provide
a year's worth of emails
460
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,400
that Second Sight requested.
461
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,960
Unfortunately,
those emails that were provided
462
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,360
were for the wrong year.
463
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,000
That seems to me an amazing error.
464
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,000
Are there any other issues?
465
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,440
Probably most important
would be full access
466
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,040
to the legal and prosecution files
held by the Post Office.
467
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,720
Paula, why don't you
make those files available?
468
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,720
What's the problem?
469
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,840
The point I want to pick up first,
if I may... No, no.
470
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,400
Answer my question.
471
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,960
Er, it is the first time,
personally, that I've heard that.
472
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,680
I'm happy to go away
and have a look.
473
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,200
They've been told that
under no circumstances
474
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,280
could they be given those files.
475
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:17,600
Is that right or wrong?
476
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,440
I... I do not recall that, no.
477
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,040
And you can piss right off.
478
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,040
That sounds to me like a shambles.
479
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,200
We are hearing from Bob
480
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,200
that your organisation
has been obstructive
481
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,880
to his independent work.
482
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,840
Is that right or wrong?
483
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,120
We have provided,
for every single case,
484
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,920
detailed, thorough,
independent investigation.
485
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,480
Let me stop you there.
We've just heard from Bob,
486
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,080
who is independent,
that you have not.
487
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,280
You are the head
of the organisation.
488
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,280
Will you provide the information,
yes or no?
489
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,680
This is the first time that I have
been asked for this information.
490
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,760
Yes or no?
I am not aware...
491
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,040
Will you provide it? Yes or no?
492
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,280
'Give me a simple answer.'
Yes or no?
493
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,640
'I am not prepared, on behalf
of the Post Office to give...'
494
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,080
I think I've got my answer.
You won't provide it.
495
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,920
No, you have not got your answer.
You have not heard a yes or no.
496
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,960
I am simply saying, at the moment,
497
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,360
I am not able to answer
your question.
498
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,200
Honestly,
I find it quite astonishing
499
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,120
that you don't seem to know anything
500
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,360
about an issue that is so
politically and socially sensitive.
501
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,920
I know a huge amount about this.
I know the really important things.
502
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,920
You are the chief executive,
so the buck stops with you.
503
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,560
It does stop with me.
504
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,840
I am not denying at all
that there are problems.
505
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:30,880
Of course there are.
506
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,560
There are problems
in any organisation.
507
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,400
But this is about the reputation
of the Post Office.
508
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,600
'What?!'
509
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,240
No, it's not! It's about
people's lives, you moron.
510
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,880
Slaughtered her.
511
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,800
Paula's face.
She had no idea what just happened.
512
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,760
Gina Griffiths has pulled out
of the mediation scheme.
513
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,960
Well, that can't be right.
Alan would've known that.
514
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,560
Unless they went to her
behind our backs.
515
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,920
What kind of people go back
on a promise to a grieving widow?
516
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,600
It's not a huge amount of money.
517
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,160
Not, you know, life-changing.
518
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,800
And in return,
you had to pull out of mediation.
519
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,560
I've got nothing coming in, Alan.
520
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,800
I was gonna have to sell the house
just to live.
521
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,520
I imagine they also got you to sign
a non-disclosure agreement,
522
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,920
promising not to talk to anyone
about Martin's case.
523
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,960
I shouldn't even be speaking to you.
524
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,840
They rang up, Alan.
They said it was a one-day offer.
525
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,680
If I didn't say yes
by the end of the day, then...
526
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,480
I'm sorry.
527
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,320
It's all right, really.
528
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,200
I understand.
529
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,880
Well...
530
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,720
I don't blame you.
531
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,000
When Angela came to see me...
532
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,280
Angela Van den Bogerd came here?
533
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,600
She was nice... I thought. Kind.
534
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,040
Now I don't know about any of them.
I think you just...
535
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,360
We just... cling to a notion,
don't we?
536
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,440
That people can't be that bad.
537
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,240
'Alan?'
538
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:40,480
Hello, Angela.
539
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,040
Oh, good news.
540
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,840
No more reports for Bob to write.
541
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,000
No more need for you
to trail down to London.
542
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,720
No more working group meetings.
543
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,280
'A new way forward.'
544
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,560
You're closing down
the mediation scheme?
545
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,960
No, no, no. No, no... no.
546
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,400
Not... Not closing it down.
We're... simplifying it.
547
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,960
'We're taking it in-house.
548
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,160
'We'll decide each case
individually.'
549
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,640
Closing it down.
550
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,320
After 18 months,
it's in everyone's interest
551
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,200
to speed things along now,
don't you think?
552
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:18,520
Well, if that's what you want to do.
'Oh.'
553
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,200
Right.
554
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,000
Well, good to talk.
555
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,440
'Bye, Alan.'
556
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,080
Goodbye, Angela.
557
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,320
Oh, you sods.
558
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,200
Suzanne?
559
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,960
I'm calling to tell you
560
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,360
that I'm not allowed
to talk to you any more.
561
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,200
Sacked again, eh? That was quick.
562
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,520
Well, I considered pointing out
that they're not allowed
563
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,080
to just kick you and me
off the working group.
564
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,640
Well, they're not allowed
to go around ruining people's lives
565
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,000
or breaking their promises.
566
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,320
But since when
did that ever stop them?
567
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,160
'They are not just dropping us,
Alan.
568
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,040
'They're rubbing our noses in it.'
569
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,760
They're making us destroy or return
every single document they gave us.
570
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,840
The whole investigation.
Three years' work up in smoke.
571
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,760
'I'm so sorry, Alan.'
572
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,440
Nice knowing you, Bob.
573
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,880
Yeah. Goodbye, Alan.
574
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,640
Cheers.
575
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,640
Love?
576
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,960
Oh, there you are.
577
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,480
They're going ahead -
without me, without Bob,
578
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,760
without anyone fighting.
our members' corner.
579
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,200
Did look at paint charts, but...
580
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,000
in the end,
I think I just want white.
581
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,840
I'll get it done this weekend,
erm... help take my mind off it.
582
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,600
You what?
583
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,920
Yeah, so, erm...
584
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,280
test came back positive.
585
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,920
Hardly time to catch a cold,
is there? Let alone get cancer.
586
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,000
You'll outlive me.
587
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:55,800
Yeah.
588
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:59,680
They'll operate.
589
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,560
It'll be fine.
590
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,840
I'll live. I want to live.
591
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,920
I have to.
592
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,800
See some bastards go to prison.
593
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,680
I'll put the kettle on.
594
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,320
Mm. Still here, then?
595
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,240
Tough old bird.
596
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,040
I've, er...
597
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,080
I've been thinking.
Oh, God.
598
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,720
No, no.
599
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,480
If we can't find a lawyer
by, I don't know, December...
600
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,560
maybe it's time to call it a day.
601
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:21,800
You once said to me,
602
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,960
"If I ever start talking
about giving up..."
603
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,400
That was then.
604
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,040
Don't you dare give up
on account of me, Alan.
605
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,000
Well, I'm not.
It's just, you know...
606
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,080
12 years is long enough
607
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,880
to keep banging my head
against a brick wall.
608
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,400
Don't you dare!
609
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,480
Cos that would mean
the last 12 years of my life
610
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,280
meant nothing, too.
611
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,800
OK.
612
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,640
New plan, then.
613
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,400
Oh, well, maybe you could've
fought me a bit harder there.
614
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,120
What about if we all apply,
all of us,
615
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,880
to see everything
the Post Office has got on us?
616
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,320
Horizon logs, investigation reports,
accounts, all of it.
617
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,040
And, er...
And then, if we can see them,
618
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:13,880
I think we've got
a much better chance...
619
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,440
You have a lovely day.
620
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,840
And don't dawdle
when Mummy comes to pick you up.
621
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,920
Are you gonna come in and help?
622
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,480
No, darling, not today.
623
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,960
Bye-bye, Joshua.
624
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,640
Granny Jo loves you.
625
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,800
Bye-bye.
626
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,720
You were only gonna be
helping them make paper hats.
627
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,280
Yeah, it's not the school's fault.
628
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,360
They can't let me be alone
with the children
629
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,223
when they know
I've got a criminal record.
630
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,080
Oh, God.
631
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,880
Come on.
Mum, will you stop it?
632
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,160
This all right?
Yeah.
633
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,680
It's fine. Love a toast-based meal.
634
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,160
Are you all right?
635
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,280
Yeah.
636
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,280
Never was any good to me, was it,
all that defective equipment?
637
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,760
Never did manage to pop
any babies out of it.
638
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,160
And, you know...
when you think about
639
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,400
the life we ended up having...
640
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,560
maybe it's OK
the children never came along.
641
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,320
I'm here, sorry.
642
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,520
Oh, I think this might be
what I've been waiting for.
643
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,080
Exciting.
Signature there, please.
644
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:08,600
Cheers. 'Do they think
we're idiots or what?
645
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,160
'146 pages blacked out.
It's ridiculous.'
646
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,200
Can you make any sense
of exactly what's been redacted?
647
00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:18,800
No, I can't tell, it's all black.
648
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,720
But I'll tell you
what's definitely not there.
649
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,760
The memo from my investigator.
650
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,520
The one where he admitted
there's no evidence against me.
651
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,880
'The one that proves
it's a miscarriage of justice.'
652
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,520
Ridiculous.
653
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,520
'The subpostmasters
applied to see this information,
654
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,880
'as is their right,
655
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,440
'and the Post Office think
they can just refuse to share it.
656
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,200
'It's simply inexplicable.'
657
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:42,640
What the Post Office is saying
is this.
658
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,960
That there have been
about half a million users
659
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,280
of the Horizon system
660
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,240
since it was introduced in 2001,
involved in Post Office business,
661
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,320
and that only 150 people
662
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,600
have applied to the mediation scheme
663
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,520
for events
spanning more than a decade.
664
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,920
The Post Office is saying
665
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,280
that the idea that there is
widespread unfairness
666
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,440
is simply not true.
667
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:06,880
Well, I would disagree.
668
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,880
These are people who have been
pillars of the community,
669
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,520
who've had their reputations
dragged through the mud,
670
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,920
who... who've been sent to prison,
some of them,
671
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,880
and I understand that at least one
has committed suicide.
672
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,120
And, Mrs Hamilton...
673
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,640
you believe that you have done
nothing wrong?
674
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,440
I have done nothing wrong.
675
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,840
'I did not take a penny
from the Post Office,
676
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,600
'but unfortunately,
the contract which runs the...'
677
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,480
Excuse me, could you just
turn the radio up? Thanks.
678
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,960
'..many of us in the Justice
For Subpostmasters Alliance
679
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,440
'didn't receive a copy of,
says quite clearly
680
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,760
'the postmaster is contractually
responsible for the losses.'
681
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:46,800
That's great.
682
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,400
'We did ask the Post office
for an interview.
683
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,560
'No-one was available.'
684
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:55,880
'Alan Bates?'
685
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,320
'Hi, Alan. My name's James Hartley.
I'm a solicitor.
686
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,680
'Yeah, I just heard
the Radio 4 piece.
687
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:05,360
'I... I think I can help.'
688
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,920
'I always say to lawyers,
689
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,560
'we're fighting a war
against an enemy
690
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,480
'owned by the British government,
691
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,320
'which means they have mighty forces
692
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,440
'and bottomless pockets
funded by the taxpayer.'
693
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,240
While we're just...
skint little people.
694
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,440
Well, I specialise in contract law,
695
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,480
and this contract is...
696
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,440
114 pages of complete rubbish.
697
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,400
I only got the two-page version.
It's unfair.
698
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,440
It's out of date.
699
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,120
It even says you're not allowed
to gamble on the premises.
700
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,120
Yeah, when we've got
lottery terminals, yeah.
701
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,200
But, you know, we all signed it,
or some version of it, so...
702
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:50,600
Well, yes, but...
703
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,080
a contract that is not properly
understood by both parties
704
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,040
is not necessarily legally binding.
705
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,640
OK.
706
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,760
Look, I think it may be possible
to raise the money
707
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,320
to fight them in court.
708
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,680
There are specialist funders
709
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:13,120
who are willing to take the risk,
but only if there are enough of you.
710
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,040
We had 130 applicants
to the mediation scheme
711
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,800
before the Post office destroyed it.
712
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,000
Mm.
713
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,240
Well, how many would you need?
714
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,880
At least 500.
715
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,560
Well... I can do that.
716
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,480
♪ Makin' me feel
Like I want too much
717
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,400
♪ Livin' with you
Is just putting me through it
718
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,280
♪ All of the time... ♪
719
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,280
Hello?
720
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:54,920
'Is that Alan Bates?'
721
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,240
Yeah. Who's this?
722
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,320
'I worked at Fujitsu
in technical support.
723
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,280
'I was gonna call you...'
724
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,560
'but I wanted to make sure you...'
725
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,000
Hang on, hang on.
You're breaking up.
726
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,120
I'm going to pull over.
727
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:20,640
Hello?
728
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,760
Hello?
729
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,840
Sorry, I got cut off.
'No, no.'
730
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,760
I... I lost you.
731
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,800
I don't want anyone knowing
I'm talking to you.
732
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,120
Of course. I understand.
733
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,520
But they're lying. That's the point.
734
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,880
They say there's no remote access
to branch accounts,
735
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,320
but there was a whole room
736
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,680
full of us inside Fujitsu
working overnights,
737
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:02,920
doing thousands of corrections
738
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,200
on Horizon
while the postmasters slept.
739
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,080
Nobody's gonna admit it, obviously.
740
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,600
Are you still there?
741
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,240
Yes! Sorry.
Er, just getting comfortable.
742
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,160
Please, go on.
743
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,720
'We were just constantly
firefighting.
744
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,440
'Coding errors, bugs,
data corruption.
745
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,480
'Horizon was much worse
than I thought.
746
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,120
'It was shocking.
It needed scrapping, really.
747
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,080
'It was hard-coded and hard-designed
for a completely...'
748
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:37,480
♪ God knows what is hiding
In those weak and drunken hearts
749
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,360
♪ Guess he kissed the girls
And made them cry
750
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,600
♪ Those hard faced queens
Of misadventure
751
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:51,600
♪ People help the people
752
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,200
♪ And if you're homesick
753
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:58,080
♪ Give me your hand
And I'll hold it. ♪
754
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,160
Subtitles by accessibility@itv.com
56607
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.