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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,359 The computer system Post Office spent an arm and a leg on 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:04,400 is faulty. 3 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,000 I haven't got that money! 4 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,720 The losses must have been caused by Mr Castleton's own error. 5 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:14,240 You're inside subpostmasters' Horizon... and he doesn't know? 6 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,120 We're ready to mount and fund an independent review. 7 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,240 Mr Rutherford's organisation, Second Sight, 8 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,520 will be working for us, the MPs, and therefore indirectly for you. 9 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,800 They had no right to take you to court at all. 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,280 They destroyed our whole life... for a lie? 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,040 Alan, it's Paula Vennells. 12 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,720 Where do we go from here? 13 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,760 Sorry, Martin, I hit every red light on the way here, mate. 14 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,680 You get later every day. Oh, come on. 15 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,560 You don't get no more cheerful, pal. 16 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,240 Just need to get home. Ah, we all do, mate. Long day? 17 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,720 They're all long days. 18 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,800 Any specials with these? 19 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,800 Giro pouch. Cheque pouch. 20 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,680 I'll have to come back for them. Yeah. 21 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,080 Oh. 22 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,640 Please! No... don't...! 23 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,280 Don't! 24 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Stay there! Don't look at me! 25 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,800 Come on, hurry up! 26 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,200 Please! Hurry up! 27 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,360 Go, go, go, go! 28 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,320 Martin, let's talk about what happened. 29 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:06,000 The total loss to Post Office funds that day were £54,354.96. 30 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,280 The police were there in five minutes. 31 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,440 They got most of it back. 32 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,680 This is a culpability interview, Martin. 33 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,360 You had the parcel hatch open and the safe. 34 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,320 In accordance with section 12, paragraph 18 35 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,880 of the subpostmasters' contract... - Martin? 36 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:24,000 ..you're bound to take reasonable precautions 37 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,040 to safeguard official cash and property. 38 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,800 You are therefore contractually liable for an amount of... 39 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,000 Seven and a half thousand pounds? 40 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,480 So now the armed robbery is our fault, too. 41 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,200 It wasn't the robbery that got me sacked. 42 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,000 Sacked? What? 43 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,360 I'm already under investigation for the Horizon shortfalls, 44 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,440 and now the robbery. 45 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:48,720 Three months' notice. 46 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:50,840 Oh, Martin. 47 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,680 For four years of, every day, opening that door, waiting for... 48 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,720 For what? 49 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,240 For the day to end. 50 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,880 "Terminated for continued poor accounting performance, 51 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,240 "not operating individual stock units correctly. 52 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,720 ' "Failure to make good losses in a timely manner." 53 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:18,960 'They're just going on' 54 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,160 and on about the contract and blaming Martin for everything, 55 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,400 never accepting it's Horizon's fault. 56 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,680 How big did the shortfalls get? 57 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:34,120 £61,000 altogether. 58 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,400 'They've had our savings already. 59 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,040 'And our parents'.' 60 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,720 Alan, we've nothing left to give. 61 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,040 OK. - Wow! 62 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,360 Every time we meet, there's more of us... 63 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,760 There's the vegetarian ones... Thank you. 64 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,240 ..and we're always ravenous. 65 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,440 Have we eaten Alan? 66 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,760 That phone is a full-time job. 67 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,560 And the effect it had on the family was... 68 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,200 I mean, not just me and Lisa, but, you know, the kids, we... 69 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,320 I mean, we had to move the schools, you know, 70 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,400 cos of the bullying. 71 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,960 And then our daughter, Millie-Jo, she hit her teens and... 72 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,240 just stopped eating. 73 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,760 It was anorexia. 74 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,680 And they say don't blame yourselves. But you do. 75 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,600 Yeah, of course you do. And nobody understands, do they? 76 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,240 Jo's always been very kind to us, hasn't she? 77 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:30,720 We call her, "Mum". Yeah. 78 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,320 If she's Mum, what's Alan? Dad? 79 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,440 We don't call him Dad. 80 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,160 Alan's the godfather. 81 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,640 Shall we, eh, crack on? 82 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,720 Yep. The Don has spoken. 83 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,040 You all right? Yeah. 84 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:52,120 The thing is, Alan, I'm not sure my computer was really the problem. 85 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,080 I just had endless power cuts. 86 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,240 36 of them in one day. 87 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:01,800 If you get a power cut in the middle of a transaction, poof! 88 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:03,560 No wonder it comes out wrong. 89 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,560 You see, erm, my husband died... 90 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,720 and I took over. 91 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,480 It was just before Horizon was installed. 92 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,240 But then they didn't put the new electricity lines in properly. 93 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:19,880 Oh, Pam. Really? 94 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,680 Doesn't it just go to show how absolutely bloody useless 95 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,600 they can be about the simplest bloody things? 96 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,000 I told them when they closed me down, I said... 97 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,440 "If you can prove that I stole that money, 98 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,520 "then send the police round, send them now." 99 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,080 Since then, I have not slept. 100 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,280 And I've been scared every waking moment, 101 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,760 expecting that knock on the door. 102 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,240 I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. 103 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,960 You've got nothing to be sorry for, Pam. 104 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,040 I'm just so... I'm just so angry. 105 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,680 I hate being so angry! 106 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,000 If I ever say I'm going to give this up, 107 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,440 remind me about people like Pam. 108 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,040 So, to, er, to recap, er, 109 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,800 my chat with Paula Vennells has resulted in a new investigation 110 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,280 and mediation scheme which will allow all of us to apply 111 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,280 for the compensation we deserve. 112 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,520 Even people like me and Jo? 113 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,760 Alan's got their commitment here in black and white. 114 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:48,120 The Post Office says you may put your case 115 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,040 through the mediation scheme, 116 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,800 even if you've already received a police caution 117 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,200 or been subject to a criminal prosecution or conviction. 118 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:00,680 If we got our money back. 119 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,120 And our good names. 120 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,320 An apology, even. 121 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,920 Steady on. Or just getting to the truth. 122 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,320 So, with your agreement, 123 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,760 Kay and I will defend your interests every step of the way. 124 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,120 We will look into each individual case and fight our corner. 125 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,480 I know, but, Alan, do you trust them? 126 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,200 I mean, do we trust them? Really? 127 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,760 Well... 128 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,840 they're putting money and effort into it, 129 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,960 and it's coming from the top, so... 130 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,000 Well, it's got to be worth a try. 131 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,200 Shall we have a vote? 132 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,800 All those in favour? 133 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:54,560 Great. 134 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:55,720 42 pence change. 135 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,920 Book of six first-class stamps, please. There you go, thank you. 136 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,320 £3.60. Sorry? 137 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,320 £3.60. 138 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,960 'For a long time, he suspected the staff, you know, 139 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,760 'of stealing from the tills. 140 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,040 'The bad feeling that's still causing. 141 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,920 'But if it wasn't them, then it had to be his fault, 142 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,840 'like he's stupid, which he isn't.' 143 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,360 That was before - before we knew about the Horizon thing. 144 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,640 Can I talk to him? 145 00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:40,560 'Well, he won't talk to me about it, even now.' 146 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,480 It drives me mad. 147 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,440 I know he's got depression. 148 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:50,840 He's a proud father, and I think he thinks he's failed us. 149 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,360 'Failed our family.' 150 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,040 Gina... 151 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,760 put him on. 152 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,120 Love. 153 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,360 It's Alan Bates. 154 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,960 He wants to talk to you. 155 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,680 Please, Martin. 156 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,240 Martin? 157 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:33,760 'Yes.' 158 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,000 Listen. Martin... 159 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,520 you're not alone. 160 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:41,160 There's a lot of us, and... 161 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,600 'there's a new scheme you can apply for. 162 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,840 'I'm going to send you the forms. 163 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,200 'Martin, you might get some of your money back.' 164 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,000 Erm... 165 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:52,920 I can't talk to you right now. 166 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,480 Ma... 167 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,040 People are trying to help here! 168 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:00,920 'I'm so sorry. Erm...' 169 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,440 He's just... He's... 'It's OK, Gina.' 170 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,280 I'll send you the forms, but get him to apply. 171 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,320 It's important. 172 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,360 I'll try. 173 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,680 Bloody traffic. 174 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,840 Hi. Oh, hi. 175 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,360 I'm a little late for a meeting with Susan Crichton. 176 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,520 Bob. Good to see you. 177 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,120 Susan's left us. 178 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:33,640 Why? 179 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:36,160 New times, new opportunities. 180 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,760 Moving forward, I'll be your main point of contact. 181 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,040 'This is Susan Crichton. I have left the Post Office. 182 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,000 'Thank you for NOT leaving a message.' 183 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,480 Bob... 184 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,120 we need to talk. 185 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,400 'I'm not bloody signing up to this nonsense.' 186 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,320 The Post Office want me to stay on, but it's pointless. 187 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,040 They've unilaterally taken away our access to 188 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,680 the legal and prosecution files. 189 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,040 I can't investigate in a blindfold with both hands tied behind my back. 190 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,200 Alan, professionally, I just can't do it. 191 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:10,920 Bob, grit your teeth. 192 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,840 We can't do this without you. 193 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,560 I don't know why you're doing it at all. 194 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,200 You do know why. We have to go to mediation 195 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,160 because we can't afford to go it alone. 196 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,760 You're an idiot to trust them, Alan. 197 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,120 I think they're mostly just a bunch of lying bastards. 198 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,160 And I think they're wasting your time and mine. 199 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,480 Bob, if you walk away now, 200 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,400 you'll never find out which of those bastards IS lying, 201 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,400 what they knew and when. 202 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,640 And you'll never find out what happens at the end of the story. 203 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,240 We must both be mad. 204 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,000 We are. Pint? 205 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,280 Big day tomorrow. 206 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,480 Your appeal against dismissal. 207 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,720 Martin. 208 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,880 Why don't I run you a bath? It'll relax you. 209 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,560 I'm all right. I'm OK, I'm OK. 210 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,040 Please let me wash these clothes, you've been wearing them for days. 211 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,440 Don't you wanna wash your hair, love? No. Stop. 212 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,120 For tomorrow! Gina. 213 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,640 It's a big day. 214 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:26,320 All I'm saying is... Gina... Gina... 215 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,400 we could just make a little bit of an effort to look nice. 216 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,280 Gina, leave me alone, please. 217 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:32,960 OK. 218 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:43,680 'We've been over this.' 219 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,360 A parcel hatch is about that big. 220 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,400 Then you've got a sack of mail, which is... 221 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,560 You know how big a sack of mail is, yeah? 222 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,880 Once they were in with weapons, even if the safe was closed, 223 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,640 what would you do if they threatened you and said, "Open the safe!"? 224 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,720 I hope you're having a fabulous morning. 225 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,680 The time is now coming up to 6:20AM, 226 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,560 and it's time for a little traffic update. 227 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,160 It looks like there's congestion on the M62, 228 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,800 and it's building up to the Runcorn turn-off. 229 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,080 Martin? 230 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,400 You're off early, love. 231 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:28,720 Sorry. 232 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,320 Morning. Where is he? 233 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,760 We don't know. Martin? 234 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,200 It's not working. I know it's not the other one. 235 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,240 It's... Are you Mrs Griffiths? 236 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,240 Can we have a word in private? N... 237 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,000 Yes. 238 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:14,840 OK. 239 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,880 No, I... 240 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,080 Hmm. Of course. 241 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,080 Thanks for letting me know. 242 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,240 He never regained consciousness. 243 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:41,840 God. 244 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,080 Gina's had to agree to switch off life support. 245 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,880 Oh, Alan! 246 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,120 Blood on their hands now. 247 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,280 He had kids, Lee. 248 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,120 I know. 249 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,640 I expect he thought he was doing them a favour. 250 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,000 Are you doing it, ever? No, no. 251 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,200 No. Not really. 252 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,400 Sorry. SOBS: Sorry. 253 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,600 ..think about it. I'm sorry. 254 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,440 Don't you... don't you ever do that! 255 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:18,320 I can't have you feeling bad about this for the rest of your life. 256 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,040 I'd have just walked away. 257 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,640 I could have just shut the shop. 258 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:38,920 Just put us on a slow boat to China. I could have done that. 259 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,960 And they'd have chased us all the way to China for that money, Lee. 260 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,560 They were never going to let go. 261 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:49,600 Hey. 262 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,480 I know you did it for us. 263 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,680 I can't think straight. 264 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,680 I don't know what to do. 265 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,080 It's really very good of you to come. 266 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,320 We're all so sorry for your loss. 267 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,240 It was four days before his notice ran out, 268 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,840 and he still hadn't told the staff he'd been sacked. 269 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,200 Yes, it's very hard. 270 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,680 And his appeal 271 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,520 against being fined for the robbery, it didn't come to anything. 272 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,560 They didn't decide one way or the other. 273 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,680 Stressful. 274 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,600 Obviously. 275 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,880 I used to get so cross with him, Angela. 276 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,680 I never did understand the problem, 277 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,520 and he couldn't explain it, just every morning going to work 278 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:41,720 and saying he was desperate. 279 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,600 He was really desperate. 280 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,680 Every morning, the same words. 281 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,760 "I hate it." 282 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,080 "I can't bear it." 283 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,280 For years. 284 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,920 Can you imagine? 285 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,240 We, er... 286 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,360 we're going to do right by you, Gina. 287 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,880 You can rely on us. 288 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,440 Yeah. 289 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,040 So, as we launch this mediation scheme, 290 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,160 I can confirm our agreement 291 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,880 that Martin Griffiths' case will be dealt with 292 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,000 as a priority by this working group. 293 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,760 Now, you've also received a request from the family 294 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,280 that any approaches to Gina should come through me. 295 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,200 Yes. Yes, we are happy to agree to this, too. 296 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,560 Shall we declare this mediation scheme up and running? Yes. 297 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,080 We have a long list of cases to examine. 298 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:59,720 So let's get started. 299 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:04,800 Right, then, start with Martin. 300 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,840 First things first... 301 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,560 Mr Griffiths. 302 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,360 'Profits falling, Mrs Vennells. 303 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,480 'Government subsidy on its way out. 304 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,160 'That means a reckoning is on the horizon, does it not?' 305 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,920 'It does, absolutely.' 306 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,360 And the whole point about this investment programme 307 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,120 is to make sure we have models that are commercially sustainable. 308 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,120 'And my ambition would be...' Yes. 309 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,000 '..that within three to four years' time...' Horizon. 310 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,400 ..the Post Office doesn't need to take taxpayers' money 311 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,600 to support those post offices that can be commercially profitable. 312 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,920 'So, Paula, if you don't mind me asking, 313 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,120 'you're CEO of the Post Office...' Ask her about Horizon. 314 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,400 '..but you're also a priest in the Church of England. 315 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,440 'How do you combine those two roles?' 316 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,080 Very good, thank you. 317 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:50,680 Good to see you. Thank you very much. 318 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,400 Just one thing. This, erm, Horizon business. 319 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,360 Anything in it? I beg your pardon? 320 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,880 Horizon. Some lurid allegations out there. 321 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:05,640 Well, er... 322 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,840 Well, after two and a half years of investigations, 323 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,080 it is now clear that the Horizon system is robust 324 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,480 and works as it should. 325 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,160 Thank you. 326 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,640 'And God said to Solomon...' 327 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,360 "Ask for whatever you want me to give you." 328 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,240 And Solomon said... 329 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,600 "Give your servant a discerning heart 330 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,000 "to govern your people 331 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,240 "and to distinguish between right and wrong." 332 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,640 The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. 333 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,320 So God said to him... 334 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:50,720 "I will do what you have asked. 335 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,000 "I will give you a wise and discerning heart." 336 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,800 I've been preparing for this mediation hearing for months. 337 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,680 You will remember that I asked to see this data, 338 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,240 the ARQ data from your system, 339 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,360 so that I could see if it matched up to my data 340 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,840 from my till in my branch. 341 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,600 I kept everything, you see. 342 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,880 Now, you told me 343 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,560 I wouldn't be capable of interpreting the ARQ data 344 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,400 because I was a silly woman or something. 345 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,720 Anyway, may I direct you to page seven? 346 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,680 Now, you will clearly see a two-hour period 347 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,320 when money alterations were being put in, 348 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:44,160 but not by me, because I was serving customers. 349 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,520 There is no functionality in the Horizon system 350 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,360 to remotely access branch terminals. 351 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,280 I just proved there is! 352 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,480 Mrs Stubbs, we have to tell you now that, 353 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,640 at this mediation meeting, 354 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,800 we are under no legal or moral obligation 355 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,120 to do anything whatsoever. 356 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,040 And we are working on the principle of the contract, 357 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,680 which says that if you lose money, you repay it. 358 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,120 Well... 359 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,840 I'm finished with this, actually. 360 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,640 I'm finished with you. 361 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,400 See, I think you're lying to me. 362 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,680 Mrs Stubbs, calm... And I KNOW you're patronising me. 363 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,120 And I'm going to tell the whole world what you are like. 364 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,120 May I remind you that you have signed a non-disclosure agreement? 365 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,160 I'll talk to anyone who will listen, I'll stand up with all my papers, 366 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,440 and I will prove you lied about this. 367 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,880 Mrs Stubbs, this will have legal ramifications... Oh! 368 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,880 You want to take me to court? I couldn't give a toss! 369 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,960 'The way they treat people... 370 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,480 'They are despicable! 371 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,200 'I have never, ever been made to feel like this...' 372 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,080 '..in my entire life. 373 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,840 Pam? Pam? 374 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,720 You're... You're breaking up. 375 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,560 I mean, are they lying or... or just stupid? 376 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,840 Hello? 377 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,840 For a while there, right at the start of mediation... 378 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,240 you got close to trusting them, didn't you? 379 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,040 Maybe... 380 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,160 despite every awful story they've heard, 381 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,880 despite all the work we've done, 382 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,600 they still don't get it. 383 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,000 They actually believe they're right. 384 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,320 I understand your impatience, of course I do. 385 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:46,880 But, Alan, really? 386 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,000 Four closely typed pages of complaint? 387 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,600 "Finding the truth is the last thing they're interested in"? 388 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,520 Well, that's been our experience of their investigation. 389 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,040 Well, will you at least acknowledge 390 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,680 that, before writing to the minister, 391 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,000 it might possibly have been useful to raise your concerns with Paula? 392 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,840 Martin Griffiths is dead. 393 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,880 Yes, I know. 394 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,040 I, too, am concerned about the length of time 395 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,240 mediation is taking, but Paula is very exercised. 396 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,880 I'm sorry, James, but, ha, these mediation hearings are a joke. 397 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,880 Well, let's just ask Paula about that, shall we? 398 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,000 'No, we have not dragged our feet.' 399 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,400 I've had 22 people working on this, full-time, for more than a year. 400 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,160 But not a single case finalised. 401 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,280 And now I am told that people are walking out 402 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,720 of their mediation meetings. 403 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,720 Yes, it has taken longer than we would've liked. 404 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,640 As chief executive of the Post Office, 405 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,880 I could not put this scheme in place and not do it properly. 406 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,920 The system... and the people who work in our branches 407 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,320 are too important for that. 408 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,480 Well, at least we can agree on that one. 409 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,080 Let's be clear, we still have allegations here 410 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:05,920 of miscarriage of justice. 411 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,720 Our lawyers advise the correct route 412 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,600 for challenges to criminal prosecutions 413 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,080 is via the Criminal Cases Review Commission... Hold on. 414 00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:16,360 Hold on. ..to the Appeal Court. 415 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,320 No, you made promises, Paula. You promised me personally 416 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:21,640 that my constituent, Jo Hamilton, 417 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,680 whom I believe was wrongly convicted and with whom all of this started, 418 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,560 would be eligible for mediation. 419 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,160 Our lawyers advise that no mediation scheme 420 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,280 has the power to overturn a criminal conviction. 421 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,840 Paula, this is quite wrong. 422 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,040 You have broken your word to me. 423 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,880 And you have broken your word to the subpostmasters. 424 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,560 You have broken your word to Parliament. 425 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,080 'Post Office has broken its word 426 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:56,880 'to Members of Parliament in so many different respects. 427 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,800 'It may, of course, be that the trade of subpostmastering 428 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,680 'was infiltrated by a sudden rash of criminals. 429 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,680 'I have met a lot of these people, and I personally do not believe it. 430 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,440 'Frankly, I no longer trust the Post Office 431 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,080 'and will not be negotiating with it further. 432 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,960 'It has spent public money on a mediation scheme 433 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,480 'that it has set out to sabotage.' 434 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,160 He says he can get some interest from the select committee. 435 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,720 Oh, not another talking shop. 436 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,560 Personally, I'm looking forward to it. 437 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,920 Probably more than Paula. 438 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,040 Is it possible to access the system remotely or not? 439 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,240 I hope it is that we know it is not possible, 440 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,600 and that we're able to explain why that is. 441 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,880 I need to be able to say, "No, it is not possible, 442 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,800 "and we're sure of this because of X, X, X." 443 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,720 I need the facts. 444 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,280 That's Paula. 445 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,360 She looks very smart. 446 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Very corporate. 447 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,240 Who's the other one? 448 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,720 Angela van den Bogerd. 449 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,440 The gruesome twosome. 450 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,520 Don't they have any blokes at the Post Office? 451 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,320 'I have spent a lot of the past 12 months...' 452 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,840 Yes! Come on, Bob. 453 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,360 ..requesting access to documents that have been challenged. 454 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,400 One issue we're looking into relates to Fujitsu's office in Bracknell. 455 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,720 Now, we first requested documents relating to that 456 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,880 almost two years ago, 457 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,560 and we have still not been provided with those documents. 458 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,920 Erm, may I respond? 459 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,040 We did provide a year's worth of emails 460 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,400 that Second Sight requested. 461 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,960 Unfortunately, those emails that were provided 462 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,360 were for the wrong year. 463 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,000 That seems to me an amazing error. 464 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,000 Are there any other issues? 465 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,440 Probably most important would be full access 466 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,040 to the legal and prosecution files held by the Post Office. 467 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,720 Paula, why don't you make those files available? 468 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,720 What's the problem? 469 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,840 The point I want to pick up first, if I may... No, no. 470 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,400 Answer my question. 471 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,960 Er, it is the first time, personally, that I've heard that. 472 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,680 I'm happy to go away and have a look. 473 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,200 They've been told that under no circumstances 474 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,280 could they be given those files. 475 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:17,600 Is that right or wrong? 476 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,440 I... I do not recall that, no. 477 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,040 And you can piss right off. 478 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,040 That sounds to me like a shambles. 479 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,200 We are hearing from Bob 480 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,200 that your organisation has been obstructive 481 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,880 to his independent work. 482 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,840 Is that right or wrong? 483 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,120 We have provided, for every single case, 484 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,920 detailed, thorough, independent investigation. 485 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,480 Let me stop you there. We've just heard from Bob, 486 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,080 who is independent, that you have not. 487 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,280 You are the head of the organisation. 488 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,280 Will you provide the information, yes or no? 489 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,680 This is the first time that I have been asked for this information. 490 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,760 Yes or no? I am not aware... 491 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,040 Will you provide it? Yes or no? 492 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,280 'Give me a simple answer.' Yes or no? 493 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,640 'I am not prepared, on behalf of the Post Office to give...' 494 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,080 I think I've got my answer. You won't provide it. 495 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,920 No, you have not got your answer. You have not heard a yes or no. 496 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,960 I am simply saying, at the moment, 497 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,360 I am not able to answer your question. 498 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,200 Honestly, I find it quite astonishing 499 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,120 that you don't seem to know anything 500 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,360 about an issue that is so politically and socially sensitive. 501 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,920 I know a huge amount about this. I know the really important things. 502 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,920 You are the chief executive, so the buck stops with you. 503 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,560 It does stop with me. 504 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,840 I am not denying at all that there are problems. 505 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:30,880 Of course there are. 506 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,560 There are problems in any organisation. 507 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,400 But this is about the reputation of the Post Office. 508 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,600 'What?!' 509 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,240 No, it's not! It's about people's lives, you moron. 510 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,880 Slaughtered her. 511 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,800 Paula's face. She had no idea what just happened. 512 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,760 Gina Griffiths has pulled out of the mediation scheme. 513 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,960 Well, that can't be right. Alan would've known that. 514 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,560 Unless they went to her behind our backs. 515 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,920 What kind of people go back on a promise to a grieving widow? 516 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,600 It's not a huge amount of money. 517 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,160 Not, you know, life-changing. 518 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,800 And in return, you had to pull out of mediation. 519 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,560 I've got nothing coming in, Alan. 520 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,800 I was gonna have to sell the house just to live. 521 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,520 I imagine they also got you to sign a non-disclosure agreement, 522 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,920 promising not to talk to anyone about Martin's case. 523 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,960 I shouldn't even be speaking to you. 524 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,840 They rang up, Alan. They said it was a one-day offer. 525 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,680 If I didn't say yes by the end of the day, then... 526 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,480 I'm sorry. 527 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,320 It's all right, really. 528 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,200 I understand. 529 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,880 Well... 530 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,720 I don't blame you. 531 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,000 When Angela came to see me... 532 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,280 Angela Van den Bogerd came here? 533 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,600 She was nice... I thought. Kind. 534 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,040 Now I don't know about any of them. I think you just... 535 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,360 We just... cling to a notion, don't we? 536 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,440 That people can't be that bad. 537 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,240 'Alan?' 538 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:40,480 Hello, Angela. 539 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,040 Oh, good news. 540 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,840 No more reports for Bob to write. 541 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,000 No more need for you to trail down to London. 542 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,720 No more working group meetings. 543 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,280 'A new way forward.' 544 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,560 You're closing down the mediation scheme? 545 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,960 No, no, no. No, no... no. 546 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,400 Not... Not closing it down. We're... simplifying it. 547 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,960 'We're taking it in-house. 548 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,160 'We'll decide each case individually.' 549 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,640 Closing it down. 550 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,320 After 18 months, it's in everyone's interest 551 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,200 to speed things along now, don't you think? 552 00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:18,520 Well, if that's what you want to do. 'Oh.' 553 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,200 Right. 554 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,000 Well, good to talk. 555 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,440 'Bye, Alan.' 556 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,080 Goodbye, Angela. 557 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,320 Oh, you sods. 558 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,200 Suzanne? 559 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,960 I'm calling to tell you 560 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,360 that I'm not allowed to talk to you any more. 561 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,200 Sacked again, eh? That was quick. 562 00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,520 Well, I considered pointing out that they're not allowed 563 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,080 to just kick you and me off the working group. 564 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,640 Well, they're not allowed to go around ruining people's lives 565 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,000 or breaking their promises. 566 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,320 But since when did that ever stop them? 567 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,160 'They are not just dropping us, Alan. 568 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,040 'They're rubbing our noses in it.' 569 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,760 They're making us destroy or return every single document they gave us. 570 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,840 The whole investigation. Three years' work up in smoke. 571 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,760 'I'm so sorry, Alan.' 572 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,440 Nice knowing you, Bob. 573 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,880 Yeah. Goodbye, Alan. 574 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,640 Cheers. 575 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,640 Love? 576 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,960 Oh, there you are. 577 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,480 They're going ahead - without me, without Bob, 578 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,760 without anyone fighting. our members' corner. 579 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,200 Did look at paint charts, but... 580 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,000 in the end, I think I just want white. 581 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,840 I'll get it done this weekend, erm... help take my mind off it. 582 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,600 You what? 583 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,920 Yeah, so, erm... 584 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,280 test came back positive. 585 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,920 Hardly time to catch a cold, is there? Let alone get cancer. 586 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,000 You'll outlive me. 587 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:55,800 Yeah. 588 00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:59,680 They'll operate. 589 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,560 It'll be fine. 590 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,840 I'll live. I want to live. 591 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,920 I have to. 592 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,800 See some bastards go to prison. 593 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,680 I'll put the kettle on. 594 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,320 Mm. Still here, then? 595 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,240 Tough old bird. 596 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,040 I've, er... 597 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,080 I've been thinking. Oh, God. 598 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,720 No, no. 599 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,480 If we can't find a lawyer by, I don't know, December... 600 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,560 maybe it's time to call it a day. 601 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:21,800 You once said to me, 602 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,960 "If I ever start talking about giving up..." 603 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,400 That was then. 604 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,040 Don't you dare give up on account of me, Alan. 605 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,000 Well, I'm not. It's just, you know... 606 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,080 12 years is long enough 607 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,880 to keep banging my head against a brick wall. 608 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,400 Don't you dare! 609 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,480 Cos that would mean the last 12 years of my life 610 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,280 meant nothing, too. 611 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,800 OK. 612 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,640 New plan, then. 613 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,400 Oh, well, maybe you could've fought me a bit harder there. 614 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,120 What about if we all apply, all of us, 615 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,880 to see everything the Post Office has got on us? 616 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,320 Horizon logs, investigation reports, accounts, all of it. 617 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,040 And, er... And then, if we can see them, 618 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:13,880 I think we've got a much better chance... 619 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,440 You have a lovely day. 620 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,840 And don't dawdle when Mummy comes to pick you up. 621 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,920 Are you gonna come in and help? 622 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,480 No, darling, not today. 623 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,960 Bye-bye, Joshua. 624 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,640 Granny Jo loves you. 625 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,800 Bye-bye. 626 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,720 You were only gonna be helping them make paper hats. 627 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,280 Yeah, it's not the school's fault. 628 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,360 They can't let me be alone with the children 629 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,223 when they know I've got a criminal record. 630 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,080 Oh, God. 631 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,880 Come on. Mum, will you stop it? 632 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,160 This all right? Yeah. 633 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,680 It's fine. Love a toast-based meal. 634 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,160 Are you all right? 635 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,280 Yeah. 636 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,280 Never was any good to me, was it, all that defective equipment? 637 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,760 Never did manage to pop any babies out of it. 638 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,160 And, you know... when you think about 639 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,400 the life we ended up having... 640 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,560 maybe it's OK the children never came along. 641 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,320 I'm here, sorry. 642 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,520 Oh, I think this might be what I've been waiting for. 643 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,080 Exciting. Signature there, please. 644 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:08,600 Cheers. 'Do they think we're idiots or what? 645 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,160 '146 pages blacked out. It's ridiculous.' 646 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,200 Can you make any sense of exactly what's been redacted? 647 00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:18,800 No, I can't tell, it's all black. 648 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,720 But I'll tell you what's definitely not there. 649 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,760 The memo from my investigator. 650 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,520 The one where he admitted there's no evidence against me. 651 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,880 'The one that proves it's a miscarriage of justice.' 652 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,520 Ridiculous. 653 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,520 'The subpostmasters applied to see this information, 654 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,880 'as is their right, 655 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,440 'and the Post Office think they can just refuse to share it. 656 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,200 'It's simply inexplicable.' 657 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:42,640 What the Post Office is saying is this. 658 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,960 That there have been about half a million users 659 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,280 of the Horizon system 660 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,240 since it was introduced in 2001, involved in Post Office business, 661 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,320 and that only 150 people 662 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,600 have applied to the mediation scheme 663 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,520 for events spanning more than a decade. 664 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,920 The Post Office is saying 665 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,280 that the idea that there is widespread unfairness 666 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,440 is simply not true. 667 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:06,880 Well, I would disagree. 668 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,880 These are people who have been pillars of the community, 669 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,520 who've had their reputations dragged through the mud, 670 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,920 who... who've been sent to prison, some of them, 671 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,880 and I understand that at least one has committed suicide. 672 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,120 And, Mrs Hamilton... 673 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,640 you believe that you have done nothing wrong? 674 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,440 I have done nothing wrong. 675 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,840 'I did not take a penny from the Post Office, 676 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,600 'but unfortunately, the contract which runs the...' 677 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,480 Excuse me, could you just turn the radio up? Thanks. 678 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,960 '..many of us in the Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance 679 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,440 'didn't receive a copy of, says quite clearly 680 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,760 'the postmaster is contractually responsible for the losses.' 681 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:46,800 That's great. 682 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,400 'We did ask the Post office for an interview. 683 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,560 'No-one was available.' 684 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:55,880 'Alan Bates?' 685 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,320 'Hi, Alan. My name's James Hartley. I'm a solicitor. 686 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,680 'Yeah, I just heard the Radio 4 piece. 687 00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:05,360 'I... I think I can help.' 688 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,920 'I always say to lawyers, 689 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,560 'we're fighting a war against an enemy 690 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,480 'owned by the British government, 691 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,320 'which means they have mighty forces 692 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,440 'and bottomless pockets funded by the taxpayer.' 693 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,240 While we're just... skint little people. 694 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,440 Well, I specialise in contract law, 695 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,480 and this contract is... 696 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,440 114 pages of complete rubbish. 697 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,400 I only got the two-page version. It's unfair. 698 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,440 It's out of date. 699 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,120 It even says you're not allowed to gamble on the premises. 700 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,120 Yeah, when we've got lottery terminals, yeah. 701 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,200 But, you know, we all signed it, or some version of it, so... 702 00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:50,600 Well, yes, but... 703 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,080 a contract that is not properly understood by both parties 704 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,040 is not necessarily legally binding. 705 00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,640 OK. 706 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,760 Look, I think it may be possible to raise the money 707 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,320 to fight them in court. 708 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,680 There are specialist funders 709 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:13,120 who are willing to take the risk, but only if there are enough of you. 710 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,040 We had 130 applicants to the mediation scheme 711 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,800 before the Post office destroyed it. 712 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,000 Mm. 713 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,240 Well, how many would you need? 714 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,880 At least 500. 715 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,560 Well... I can do that. 716 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,480 ♪ Makin' me feel Like I want too much 717 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,400 ♪ Livin' with you Is just putting me through it 718 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,280 ♪ All of the time... ♪ 719 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,280 Hello? 720 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:54,920 'Is that Alan Bates?' 721 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,240 Yeah. Who's this? 722 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,320 'I worked at Fujitsu in technical support. 723 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,280 'I was gonna call you...' 724 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,560 'but I wanted to make sure you...' 725 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,000 Hang on, hang on. You're breaking up. 726 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,120 I'm going to pull over. 727 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:20,640 Hello? 728 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,760 Hello? 729 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,840 Sorry, I got cut off. 'No, no.' 730 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,760 I... I lost you. 731 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,800 I don't want anyone knowing I'm talking to you. 732 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,120 Of course. I understand. 733 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,520 But they're lying. That's the point. 734 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,880 They say there's no remote access to branch accounts, 735 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,320 but there was a whole room 736 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,680 full of us inside Fujitsu working overnights, 737 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:02,920 doing thousands of corrections 738 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,200 on Horizon while the postmasters slept. 739 00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,080 Nobody's gonna admit it, obviously. 740 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,600 Are you still there? 741 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,240 Yes! Sorry. Er, just getting comfortable. 742 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,160 Please, go on. 743 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,720 'We were just constantly firefighting. 744 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,440 'Coding errors, bugs, data corruption. 745 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,480 'Horizon was much worse than I thought. 746 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,120 'It was shocking. It needed scrapping, really. 747 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,080 'It was hard-coded and hard-designed for a completely...' 748 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:37,480 ♪ God knows what is hiding In those weak and drunken hearts 749 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,360 ♪ Guess he kissed the girls And made them cry 750 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,600 ♪ Those hard faced queens Of misadventure 751 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:51,600 ♪ People help the people 752 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,200 ♪ And if you're homesick 753 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:58,080 ♪ Give me your hand And I'll hold it. ♪ 754 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,160 Subtitles by accessibility@itv.com 56607

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