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This documentary is based on
archival footage from 1969.
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Opinions expressed have
not been altered in any way.
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1968
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A time of activism
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00:00:52,778 --> 00:00:55,322
Radical student movement
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The World Revolution
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Confrontation at
Yasuda Auditorium, the University of Tokyo
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May 13, 1969
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At the University of Tokyo in Komaba
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over 1,000 students waited in
Lecture Hall 900 for a man.
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They belonged to a radical leftist
league called Zenkyoto.
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Here to face his archenemies
was Yukio Mishima.
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00:01:41,785 --> 00:01:47,958
The iconic right-wing novelist
idolized the Emperor.
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I saw resolve in his eyes.
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00:01:51,378 --> 00:01:54,756
He wanted to persuade
those 1,000 students.
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He was a genius.
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Very sharp.
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A superstar.
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He was at his most brilliant.
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00:02:02,597 --> 00:02:05,225
Communism is my enemy.
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For Mishima, the Emperor is...
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We struggle with the same difficulty.
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You can't transcend being Japanese.
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That's OK.
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00:02:17,779 --> 00:02:23,493
It was a debate of polar opposite
political ideologies.
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This is where the legendary
debate between intellectuals begins.
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This 50-year-old footage is in
TBS Television archives.
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With accounts from
13 witnesses and experts
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00:02:39,551 --> 00:02:43,889
we attempt to reconstruct
the legend.
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Mishima: The Last Debate
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In the 1960s, war was an imminent
threat to the Japanese.
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As the Vietnam War raged on
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00:03:15,963 --> 00:03:20,509
students protested against it
and university bureaucracy.
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00:03:20,634 --> 00:03:22,844
Activism spread rapidly.
35
00:03:31,270 --> 00:03:35,399
Students who rejected
the existing New Left groups
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00:03:35,565 --> 00:03:41,029
formed Zenkyoto groups at universities,
with more autonomy.
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00:03:42,322 --> 00:03:45,742
It became a nationwide
political movement.
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00:03:48,412 --> 00:03:51,665
Demanding affordable tuition
and autonomy
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00:03:51,748 --> 00:03:58,755
they became radical
and confronted the school authorities.
40
00:04:02,843 --> 00:04:06,179
The students
protested against the war
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00:04:06,305 --> 00:04:08,849
on and off campus.
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00:04:19,067 --> 00:04:23,655
The combatting students and
riot police made Tokyo a war zone.
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00:04:25,407 --> 00:04:31,705
January 1968 Protest against
the nuclear-powered USS Enterprise
44
00:04:37,419 --> 00:04:42,758
October 21, 1968
Riot on Anti-War Day
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00:04:44,092 --> 00:04:47,763
1968 was dubbed the "Political Season."
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00:04:47,888 --> 00:04:53,852
While some feared a revolution in Japan
others wanted one.
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00:05:04,863 --> 00:05:10,243
One man who observed the riots
became concerned about society.
48
00:05:11,787 --> 00:05:14,957
He was Yukio Mishima, the novelist.
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00:05:18,335 --> 00:05:21,630
Mishima was born in 1925.
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While at Gakushuin High School
the prodigy wrote a novel,
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00:05:27,552 --> 00:05:30,597
The Forest in Full Bloom.
52
00:05:31,056 --> 00:05:35,602
He studied law at the University of
Tokyo during WWII.
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00:05:36,353 --> 00:05:40,857
He continued to write and
survived the devastation of war.
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00:05:43,151 --> 00:05:45,362
When Japan lost the war,
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00:05:45,529 --> 00:05:50,033
the Emperor renounced his divinity.
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00:05:52,828 --> 00:05:58,000
Mishima quit his Finance Ministry job
to focus on writing.
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00:06:01,503 --> 00:06:06,008
He explored inner turmoil in
Confessions of a Mask
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00:06:07,634 --> 00:06:11,722
and youth in The Temple of
the Golden Pavilion
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00:06:11,847 --> 00:06:14,016
among other masterpieces.
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00:06:15,767 --> 00:06:18,562
He wrote prolifically for 25 years.
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00:06:18,645 --> 00:06:23,650
There are 42 volumes in the
complete Mishima collection.
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00:06:23,775 --> 00:06:28,405
World-famous, his books were
translated into various languages.
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00:06:29,489 --> 00:06:31,658
For the sake of my art.
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00:06:37,122 --> 00:06:42,753
Mishima, the "writer in action"
did not only write.
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00:06:44,379 --> 00:06:48,383
He took up bodybuilding to get
a body of steel.
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00:06:48,508 --> 00:06:52,512
He was proud of his physique and
modeled for magazines.
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00:06:53,180 --> 00:06:56,808
He wrote and directed plays
and kabuki.
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00:06:58,894 --> 00:07:02,940
Be more cunning like
you have a hidden motive.
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00:07:04,024 --> 00:07:07,069
He starred in a yakuza movie.
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00:07:08,779 --> 00:07:10,656
He did boxing and karate.
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00:07:12,532 --> 00:07:17,079
Also skilled in kendo,
he had 4th dan ranking.
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00:07:19,873 --> 00:07:22,250
He wielded both pen and sword.
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00:07:24,127 --> 00:07:28,757
He trained with
the Self-Defense Forces
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00:07:30,384 --> 00:07:34,471
and flew in a jet fighter
at supersonic speeds.
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00:07:38,183 --> 00:07:44,022
During the 1960s
Mishima became openly political.
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00:07:44,815 --> 00:07:49,987
His writings reflected
his political beliefs.
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00:07:54,574 --> 00:07:59,788
In October 1968, Mishima founded
a private organization named
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"Tatenokai" or the Shield Society.
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00:08:06,378 --> 00:08:11,800
He recruited students who believed
in right-wing nationalism.
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00:08:15,721 --> 00:08:20,809
Whereas the leftist students
wanted a communist revolution
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00:08:21,435 --> 00:08:23,604
their motto was "anti-revolution".
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Mishima and his militia trained
with the Self-Defense Forces as
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they anticipated conflict.
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We need young men who are trained in
firearms for an emergency.
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He was also writing his magnum
opus The Sea of Fertility tetralogy
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00:08:47,085 --> 00:08:53,425
and was up against Kawabata for
Japan's first Nobel Prize in Literature.
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00:08:57,596 --> 00:09:04,645
In the spring of 1969,
Mishima got a phone call.
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It was the Zenkyoto branch
from the University of Tokyo.
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00:09:13,528 --> 00:09:17,574
The Zenkyoto branch at
the University of Tokyo
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was formed in 1968 to reform
the school with activism.
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00:09:25,624 --> 00:09:28,377
On January 18, 1969
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00:09:29,378 --> 00:09:35,050
riot police dispersed students
occupying Yasuda Auditorium.
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Students fought back with
gasoline bombs but
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00:09:41,807 --> 00:09:45,269
were contained by
tear gas and water cannons.
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00:09:51,984 --> 00:09:54,861
Zenkyoto was defeated.
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00:09:57,239 --> 00:10:01,827
Zenkyoto embraced violence to
fight the Establishment.
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00:10:03,328 --> 00:10:07,541
They invited Mishima, a reactionary,
to a debate.
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00:10:07,666 --> 00:10:10,836
Their motives were unclear.
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00:10:12,879 --> 00:10:14,464
Right vs. left.
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00:10:15,090 --> 00:10:17,134
Conservatism vs. Radicalism.
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00:10:18,302 --> 00:10:24,182
A public debate
discussing two extreme political views
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00:10:24,308 --> 00:10:27,144
was a dangerous
yet thrilling proposition.
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00:10:29,479 --> 00:10:34,860
It was to be held in Lecture Hall 900
in Komaba campus
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00:10:35,777 --> 00:10:41,908
not in Hongo campus where
students occupied Yasuda Auditorium.
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00:10:44,119 --> 00:10:49,541
A poster at the door called
Mishima an "Anachronistic Gorilla"
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00:10:50,792 --> 00:10:54,046
asking for a 100 yen "to feed the beast".
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00:10:55,714 --> 00:10:58,050
"We'll shut him up with logic
and make him"
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00:10:58,175 --> 00:11:00,385
"commit harakiri on stage."
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00:11:00,510 --> 00:11:04,931
That's what students said, apparently.
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00:11:08,226 --> 00:11:12,940
Mishima, the Zenkyoto members
and the audience members
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00:11:13,815 --> 00:11:18,070
waited tensely for
the debate to start.
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00:11:22,658 --> 00:11:26,495
And it started at 2:05 PM.
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00:11:27,871 --> 00:11:34,670
Chapter 1
Mishima's resolve: Seven enemies
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Mishima's opening speech
went for over 10 minutes.
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00:11:39,883 --> 00:11:44,096
1,000 hostile students
were occupying the hall.
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00:11:45,597 --> 00:11:49,518
His conviction was
surprising and provocative.
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00:11:51,979 --> 00:11:56,483
You saw the act of having me
on the podium as reactionary...
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00:11:57,693 --> 00:12:03,699
I guess that I am qualified to be here
as I am reactionary.
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00:12:06,118 --> 00:12:12,249
As the saying goes, "When a man
leaves his house he has 7 enemies."
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00:12:12,374 --> 00:12:16,753
There are more than 7 of you
so I needed resolve to come.
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00:12:17,796 --> 00:12:23,844
On the morning of April 28, I met a
man who's part of the "establishment."
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00:12:23,969 --> 00:12:27,431
He's brilliant but not a top guy.
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00:12:29,725 --> 00:12:33,478
There was
a nationwide anti-war demonstration
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00:12:34,354 --> 00:12:36,648
on April 28, 1969.
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00:12:37,149 --> 00:12:42,154
Activists protested in Tokyo
and cities across Japan.
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00:12:43,488 --> 00:12:48,660
As a result, nearly
1,000 students were arrested.
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00:12:50,954 --> 00:12:56,877
The "establishment" guy said that
the protesters were deranged
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00:12:57,294 --> 00:13:02,883
and that they were idiotic
to protest like that.
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00:13:02,966 --> 00:13:08,472
I'm not saying this to grovel
but his remark bothered me.
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00:13:08,722 --> 00:13:13,477
He can send you to a nuthouse
if that's what he wants.
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00:13:13,810 --> 00:13:20,984
But it's undignified for a government
to panic over a bunch of nuts!
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00:13:22,027 --> 00:13:26,198
I think nutcases should be
looked after.
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00:13:26,365 --> 00:13:31,036
Medicate them. Psychiatric medication
has improved.
134
00:13:31,161 --> 00:13:34,122
Lock them up and look after them.
135
00:13:34,247 --> 00:13:38,251
Don't go hurting and killing them.
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00:13:38,377 --> 00:13:43,256
That's inhumane and unacceptable.
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00:13:43,340 --> 00:13:48,220
I don't think
any of you are nutcases.
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00:13:48,345 --> 00:13:51,640
I came here with the intention
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00:13:51,765 --> 00:13:55,060
of seeing if words
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00:13:55,227 --> 00:14:00,565
are still an effective method
of communication.
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00:14:00,691 --> 00:14:04,152
That's what I came here
to verify.
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00:14:06,697 --> 00:14:11,576
Keiichiro Hirano (44)
Novelist
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00:14:11,743 --> 00:14:18,292
Mishima said that he wanted to
see how effective words could be
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00:14:18,417 --> 00:14:22,087
between people with
opposite beliefs.
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00:14:22,212 --> 00:14:26,383
Which was
an essential issue for Mishima.
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00:14:26,508 --> 00:14:32,014
The impact of his words
was a pressing concern for him.
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00:14:32,139 --> 00:14:34,641
Would they affect reality?
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00:14:34,725 --> 00:14:39,771
Would his words affect people
with opposing beliefs?
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00:14:39,896 --> 00:14:43,692
That idea intrigued him.
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00:14:46,987 --> 00:14:51,283
Looking at that man from
the establishment
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00:14:51,408 --> 00:14:57,748
on that morning of April 28,
I saw no fear in his eyes.
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00:14:57,914 --> 00:14:58,915
Fearful eyes
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00:14:58,999 --> 00:15:01,543
That impressed me.
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00:15:02,085 --> 00:15:07,466
It made me wonder what
it's like on your side.
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00:15:07,924 --> 00:15:13,555
If I imagine that, I think of the
novel, Therese Desqueyroux.
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00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:20,771
In the novel, Therese attempts to
poison her husband.
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00:15:21,063 --> 00:15:24,191
What was her reason?
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00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:28,737
It's not clear.
Maybe she didn't love him.
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00:15:28,862 --> 00:15:32,032
Maybe she hated him.
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00:15:32,199 --> 00:15:36,328
It's unclear but she felt compelled
to poison him.
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00:15:36,453 --> 00:15:41,124
The author, Francois Mauriac,
explores her psyche.
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00:15:41,249 --> 00:15:46,338
In the end Therese says,
"I wanted to see fear in his eyes."
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00:15:47,506 --> 00:15:54,805
I guess you want to see fear in the
eyes of Japan's establishment.
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00:15:55,389 --> 00:15:59,059
I do too, from a different angle.
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00:15:59,643 --> 00:16:02,980
I don't like assured people.
166
00:16:03,105 --> 00:16:08,819
In fact, I don't like this
false sense of comfort I have now.
167
00:16:10,404 --> 00:16:16,868
I heard that you all chipped in
100 yen or more for this event.
168
00:16:16,994 --> 00:16:22,624
I don't like how I'm unwittingly
helping your fundraising.
169
00:16:24,626 --> 00:16:27,379
It's too political for me.
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00:16:27,671 --> 00:16:32,509
I'd rather take my share for
my Shield Society.
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00:16:33,093 --> 00:16:40,058
A Liberal Democratic Party politician
asked me the other day
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00:16:40,225 --> 00:16:44,605
to sign a petition
against the violence.
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00:16:46,732 --> 00:16:51,903
I've never protested violence
so I told him I couldn't comply.
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00:16:52,237 --> 00:16:56,783
Left-wing or right,
I'm not against violence.
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00:16:57,367 --> 00:17:01,747
Because of the ironic way
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00:17:01,872 --> 00:17:05,834
violence affects our society nowadays.
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00:17:06,001 --> 00:17:11,882
I think that unconditional
denial of violence would
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00:17:12,007 --> 00:17:16,678
only play into the hands
of the Communist Party.
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00:17:16,803 --> 00:17:17,846
I don't like that.
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00:17:18,472 --> 00:17:25,270
Observing the LDP and the
Communist Party join hands
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00:17:25,395 --> 00:17:28,732
I knew something dreadful
was happening.
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00:17:30,067 --> 00:17:33,695
Observing the University of Tokyo
student riots
183
00:17:33,862 --> 00:17:39,201
I never said that I feared violence
or that we should deny it.
184
00:17:39,326 --> 00:17:43,997
You won't read that in
any of my writings.
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00:17:44,164 --> 00:17:47,376
The worst part for me was that
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00:17:47,501 --> 00:17:53,090
after the assembly at
Chichibunomiya Rugby Stadium,
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00:17:53,173 --> 00:17:56,551
your university tried to resume
entrance exams.
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00:17:57,844 --> 00:18:01,890
On January 10, 1969
Acting Chancellor Ichiro Kato
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00:18:02,015 --> 00:18:07,980
negotiated with communist and
non-political students
190
00:18:08,146 --> 00:18:12,401
in an effort to
stop the students' strikes
191
00:18:13,026 --> 00:18:16,655
at the University of Tokyo
7-faculty assembly.
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00:18:20,826 --> 00:18:25,706
The Communist Party and the LDP
fell into line.
193
00:18:25,914 --> 00:18:29,751
Not every student is combative and
194
00:18:29,876 --> 00:18:34,631
politicians saw it
as an opportunity to end it.
195
00:18:34,965 --> 00:18:39,845
They know that most Japanese
don't care about ideology.
196
00:18:39,970 --> 00:18:44,141
They value order over
logic and integrity.
197
00:18:44,266 --> 00:18:50,480
Order is more important and
the police maintain it.
198
00:18:50,606 --> 00:18:55,944
As long as the police maintain
superficial order
199
00:18:56,069 --> 00:18:59,364
left and right-wingers can unify.
200
00:18:59,865 --> 00:19:02,868
A poster on the door calls me
201
00:19:02,993 --> 00:19:05,370
an "Anachronistic
Gorilla".
202
00:19:05,662 --> 00:19:07,998
I admit
I am primitive.
203
00:19:08,165 --> 00:19:12,961
The politicians' lack of integrity
upsets me.
204
00:19:13,712 --> 00:19:18,842
I want the LDP to be reactive and
the Communist Party to be violent.
205
00:19:19,009 --> 00:19:21,053
But they hesitate.
206
00:19:22,179 --> 00:19:25,474
That's what frustrates me the most.
207
00:19:25,766 --> 00:19:30,979
I don't know which one of your
sects I'll have to fight.
208
00:19:31,104 --> 00:19:34,232
I don't know who my enemy is.
209
00:19:34,399 --> 00:19:37,694
I write about my ideology everywhere
210
00:19:37,819 --> 00:19:40,948
and when the time comes,
one must rise.
211
00:19:41,073 --> 00:19:45,410
I don't really agree with
the concept of
212
00:19:45,535 --> 00:19:48,956
lawful killings.
213
00:19:49,122 --> 00:19:49,998
Illegal violence
214
00:19:50,248 --> 00:19:53,502
I'm not opposed to the
death penalty outright but
215
00:19:53,627 --> 00:19:59,341
I don't want to be
the one who kills lawfully.
216
00:19:59,466 --> 00:20:02,970
You see me
as part of the establishment
217
00:20:03,095 --> 00:20:08,642
but only the Self-Defense Forces can
open fire to disperse a riot.
218
00:20:08,767 --> 00:20:13,772
I'm not one of them
but they've been good to me.
219
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,776
I am a civilian.
220
00:20:17,901 --> 00:20:22,906
If I were to act, it would have to be
illegal as it is for you.
221
00:20:23,323 --> 00:20:28,745
If I took someone's life in a duel,
it'd be murder.
222
00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:35,460
In that case I'd kill myself
before I was arrested.
223
00:20:35,585 --> 00:20:38,672
But I don't know
when that chance will come
224
00:20:38,797 --> 00:20:42,968
so I work out in preparation to become
225
00:20:43,093 --> 00:20:46,305
the best Anachronistic Gorilla
I can be.
226
00:20:47,222 --> 00:20:48,849
That's my resolve.
227
00:20:51,226 --> 00:20:55,522
Mishima at the time said
illegal violence was acceptable.
228
00:20:56,481 --> 00:21:01,194
At a debate with Hitotsubashi
University students a year earlier
229
00:21:02,029 --> 00:21:05,407
he said, "Political assassination
is acceptable"
230
00:21:05,824 --> 00:21:09,494
"in accordance with duel ethics."
231
00:21:09,620 --> 00:21:11,830
This became controversial.
232
00:21:15,042 --> 00:21:18,587
Before I came here today
233
00:21:18,712 --> 00:21:22,466
one of you said that
we had something in common.
234
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:26,303
The Mishima and Zenkyoto connection
Let me explain what it is.
235
00:21:26,595 --> 00:21:29,431
It's about perceptions of violence.
236
00:21:29,556 --> 00:21:31,850
You League members
237
00:21:32,225 --> 00:21:35,938
theorize physicality through ideology
238
00:21:36,104 --> 00:21:41,360
then find a logical connection
with violence.
239
00:21:41,485 --> 00:21:46,531
That's what you said
and I agree with you.
240
00:21:46,657 --> 00:21:53,080
We might be able to have a
constructive discussion on that point.
241
00:21:53,205 --> 00:21:55,290
That's why I'm here.
242
00:21:55,707 --> 00:21:59,503
In terms of political orientation
243
00:21:59,670 --> 00:22:04,341
you and I are supposed to be
polar opposites.
244
00:22:04,466 --> 00:22:07,386
We are but let me tell you this.
245
00:22:07,511 --> 00:22:12,015
Japanese intellectuals
believe in ideologies.
246
00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:13,392
Anti-intellectualism
247
00:22:13,684 --> 00:22:16,603
They believe in the superiority
of the intellect.
248
00:22:16,812 --> 00:22:23,318
I don't like their belief that
they're above humanity, like rulers.
249
00:22:24,361 --> 00:22:29,533
There are many accomplished
professors and
250
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:33,662
I always hated seeing their faces.
251
00:22:33,829 --> 00:22:37,791
It might be because I lack
intellect and ideology.
252
00:22:37,958 --> 00:22:41,753
I could always smell
that snobbery
253
00:22:41,878 --> 00:22:45,340
all over the University of Tokyo.
254
00:22:46,550 --> 00:22:50,637
I don't approve of all of
your activism
255
00:22:50,762 --> 00:22:56,226
but you undermine those snobs
who act intellectually superior.
256
00:22:56,351 --> 00:22:59,396
I absolutely recognize that.
257
00:23:01,106 --> 00:23:07,195
I'd like to understand what
anti-intellectualism means.
258
00:23:07,321 --> 00:23:10,824
Are you so intelligent you're
against intellect?
259
00:23:10,991 --> 00:23:16,288
Are you anti-intellect
because you're unintelligent?
260
00:23:16,913 --> 00:23:18,999
I don't know which it is.
261
00:23:22,461 --> 00:23:28,133
If Professor Masao Maruyama advocated
anti-intellectualism
262
00:23:28,258 --> 00:23:31,261
everyone would be convinced.
263
00:23:31,345 --> 00:23:35,849
But he wouldn't so
you guys punched him in the face!
264
00:23:36,892 --> 00:23:40,729
Maruyama was a leading
political theorist
265
00:23:40,896 --> 00:23:46,026
whose views on democracy were
influential in the post-war years.
266
00:23:46,652 --> 00:23:53,825
The University of Tokyo professor was
seen as authoritarian by Zenkyoto.
267
00:23:56,161 --> 00:24:01,875
Where in our mind does
anti-intellectualism derive?
268
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,089
Who is entitled to
practice anti-intellectualism?
269
00:24:07,214 --> 00:24:10,968
I've always wondered about that.
270
00:24:12,052 --> 00:24:13,345
Tatsuru Uchida (68)
271
00:24:13,428 --> 00:24:15,639
Professor emeritus at Kobe College
joined the University of Tokyo in 1970
272
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,227
Mishima talked about
anti-intellectualism
273
00:24:20,352 --> 00:24:22,854
which reflects his beliefs.
274
00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:25,524
He praises the students
275
00:24:25,691 --> 00:24:30,821
for deconstructing early 20th century
intellectualism.
276
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:39,037
Then the mic was handed over
to a Zenkyoto member.
277
00:24:41,248 --> 00:24:45,961
Unfortunately "violence"
is not only defined
278
00:24:46,086 --> 00:24:51,800
on its primitive and visceral origins.
279
00:24:52,009 --> 00:24:55,804
The problem of post-war
intellectuals
280
00:24:55,887 --> 00:24:58,724
as Mr. Mishima pointed out
281
00:24:58,849 --> 00:25:02,102
We're not supposed to be
deferential...
282
00:25:06,398 --> 00:25:08,859
But hear my excuse.
283
00:25:08,984 --> 00:25:14,448
Mr. Mishima deserves our respect
more than our professors.
284
00:25:15,324 --> 00:25:18,076
I hope you can accept my excuse.
285
00:25:20,495 --> 00:25:24,333
I think his critique
is spot on.
286
00:25:24,458 --> 00:25:26,710
But he hasn't proven yet
287
00:25:26,835 --> 00:25:32,549
Osamu Kimura was an
organizer and the master of ceremony.
288
00:25:32,758 --> 00:25:37,137
He was a 2nd-year student
at the University of Tokyo.
289
00:25:39,097 --> 00:25:45,187
I couldn't help being deferential.
He was so mild-mannered.
290
00:25:45,395 --> 00:25:47,689
Osamu Kimura (72)
Former Zenkyoto member
291
00:25:47,856 --> 00:25:52,110
Mr. Mishima was not at all
brash when he talked to us.
292
00:25:52,694 --> 00:25:56,949
He was different from
how I expected.
293
00:25:59,701 --> 00:26:04,373
After the monumental
defeat at Yasuda Auditorium
294
00:26:04,831 --> 00:26:07,960
Zenkyoto's existence was at stake.
295
00:26:10,504 --> 00:26:14,925
Kimura and the organizers were
based at Komaba campus.
296
00:26:15,467 --> 00:26:18,178
As a part of the "bonfire festival"
297
00:26:18,971 --> 00:26:23,016
they planned a public debate.
298
00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:29,189
And they chose Mishima
as their guest of honor.
299
00:26:31,817 --> 00:26:36,113
After the occupation of
Yasuda Auditorium
300
00:26:36,530 --> 00:26:39,074
Osamu Kimura
301
00:26:39,616 --> 00:26:41,910
Zenkyoto was weakening.
302
00:26:42,619 --> 00:26:46,415
But we wanted to continue
as an organization
303
00:26:46,832 --> 00:26:51,586
and we didn't want our
activism to be nullified.
304
00:26:52,004 --> 00:26:56,049
So we discussed our strategies and
came up with
305
00:26:56,383 --> 00:27:00,345
the idea of the bonfire festival,
which Kosaka named.
306
00:27:00,512 --> 00:27:03,849
Shuhei Kosaka
A University of Tokyo student
307
00:27:04,224 --> 00:27:06,184
Daisaburo Hashizume (70)
Sociologist/Former Zenkyoto member
308
00:27:06,393 --> 00:27:12,274
It was their attempt to have a cultural
win after their political defeat.
309
00:27:12,399 --> 00:27:17,154
Our bonfire festival had
religious symbolism too.
310
00:27:18,447 --> 00:27:24,369
We were in the mood to
burn stale intellectualism.
311
00:27:25,954 --> 00:27:32,127
Mr. Mishima was invited to join us
with that intention.
312
00:27:32,252 --> 00:27:38,342
I called at midday but his wife said
that he slept during the day.
313
00:27:38,467 --> 00:27:41,928
He'd wake up to write at night
314
00:27:42,095 --> 00:27:46,224
so I was told to call back
in the evening.
315
00:27:47,059 --> 00:27:50,854
I called again at around 1 AM...
316
00:27:51,563 --> 00:27:56,860
I thought it'd be late enough.
And he answered.
317
00:27:57,903 --> 00:28:01,031
I read his
Culture Defense Theory
318
00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:03,408
so I proposed that
319
00:28:03,533 --> 00:28:07,287
we had a public
discussion about Japan.
320
00:28:07,829 --> 00:28:09,206
Culture Defense Theory (1968)
321
00:28:09,289 --> 00:28:11,083
Mishima outlines the Emperor's role
in restoring Japan's traditions.
322
00:28:11,291 --> 00:28:17,881
Initially I'm sure he thought
of us as a bunch of hooligans so
323
00:28:17,965 --> 00:28:20,801
like he said in his speech
324
00:28:20,926 --> 00:28:24,888
he felt like a man who'd
accepted a duel.
325
00:28:27,474 --> 00:28:31,603
I'd like to know what the Other means
to Mishima.
326
00:28:31,728 --> 00:28:35,899
He called himself an
Anachronistic Gorilla.
327
00:28:36,024 --> 00:28:40,487
I think we're all scared of
big, hairy gorillas.
328
00:28:40,612 --> 00:28:43,615
No offence intended.
329
00:28:43,699 --> 00:28:47,244
Violent acts cause anxiety.
330
00:28:48,412 --> 00:28:53,417
By merely directing oneself
to be violent
331
00:28:54,001 --> 00:29:00,132
would it be effective
politically and socially?
332
00:29:00,257 --> 00:29:05,095
What are "Others" in relation
to our effectiveness, Mr. Mishima?
333
00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:06,179
On others
334
00:29:06,346 --> 00:29:09,558
Killing someone is easy but
335
00:29:09,725 --> 00:29:13,604
you may be killed by someone else.
336
00:29:13,979 --> 00:29:19,776
If you say your identity is
ultimately maintained by violence
337
00:29:19,901 --> 00:29:23,322
what are "others" to you?
338
00:29:25,866 --> 00:29:31,204
I hate Jean-Paul Sartre but in
Being and Nothingness he asked
339
00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:34,750
what is obscene?
340
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,463
He wrote that a woman tied-up
defines obscenity.
341
00:29:39,671 --> 00:29:42,758
In Being and Nothingness Sartre analyses
342
00:29:44,259 --> 00:29:48,722
the relation between
oneself and the Other.
343
00:29:49,264 --> 00:29:53,101
We only find eroticism in the Other.
344
00:29:53,226 --> 00:29:58,148
And violence is deeply
connected to eroticism.
345
00:29:58,273 --> 00:30:01,944
Attraction to the Other is core
to eroticism
346
00:30:02,110 --> 00:30:05,864
but the Other is subjective
and has a mind.
347
00:30:05,989 --> 00:30:08,951
That gets in the way of eroticism.
348
00:30:09,076 --> 00:30:12,287
So, loving a being with a will
349
00:30:12,412 --> 00:30:16,625
makes equality between genders
contradictory.
350
00:30:16,792 --> 00:30:21,505
Because the relationship of achieved
love isn't erotic.
351
00:30:21,922 --> 00:30:27,678
When one of them is not free
to act or think
352
00:30:28,095 --> 00:30:32,391
it's the most obscene
and erotic situation.
353
00:30:32,975 --> 00:30:39,022
I think this is essential to
interpersonal relationships.
354
00:30:39,147 --> 00:30:44,111
Let's say the Prime Minister
was bound up and sitting here.
355
00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:45,946
It's not erotic.
356
00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:48,156
Former Prime Minister Eisaku Sato
In office 1964-1972
357
00:30:48,448 --> 00:30:51,326
But to treat him violently
358
00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:54,788
isn't something you'd do willingly.
359
00:30:54,955 --> 00:30:59,293
You acknowledge hostility
from the Sato administration.
360
00:30:59,418 --> 00:31:03,213
You acknowledge that they have
their own mind.
361
00:31:03,297 --> 00:31:09,094
By acknowledging it,
you put yourself in a relationship
362
00:31:09,219 --> 00:31:14,600
with others on a nonerotic basis.
363
00:31:14,725 --> 00:31:16,643
Which in my opinion
364
00:31:16,768 --> 00:31:22,566
is not an essential conflict
between the self and others
365
00:31:23,025 --> 00:31:25,319
that defines human relationships.
366
00:31:25,402 --> 00:31:30,240
Because technically
we want others to be
367
00:31:30,365 --> 00:31:35,996
like a kind of
malleable object.
368
00:31:36,163 --> 00:31:39,708
That's how we believe others should be.
369
00:31:39,833 --> 00:31:44,338
We all want others to fit
in with us.
370
00:31:44,463 --> 00:31:46,923
So if others don't
371
00:31:47,215 --> 00:31:51,053
the relationship between
you and others sours.
372
00:31:51,303 --> 00:31:53,096
It's nonerotic.
373
00:31:53,555 --> 00:32:00,312
But a nonerotic relationship shouldn't
result in violence.
374
00:32:00,437 --> 00:32:06,652
It's not violence but the beautiful
word you use, "conflict."
375
00:32:07,819 --> 00:32:11,573
A confrontation that involves
the self and others.
376
00:32:11,698 --> 00:32:14,910
It's based on the mentality
of a duel.
377
00:32:15,410 --> 00:32:21,625
That's why violence committed by
students is not really violence.
378
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:26,129
Let's try to imagine
how the police view you.
379
00:32:26,254 --> 00:32:31,760
As I said if you were a bunch of nuts
who have no sense of self
380
00:32:31,885 --> 00:32:34,012
the police shouldn't be violent.
381
00:32:34,137 --> 00:32:38,642
But they are, because they
acknowledge that you're a subject.
382
00:32:38,767 --> 00:32:42,437
To create such a situation
383
00:32:42,521 --> 00:32:48,568
in which the self and others
are forced to relate
384
00:32:48,694 --> 00:32:54,491
and form a relationship without
objectifying each other.
385
00:32:54,616 --> 00:32:58,620
This is the only way
for the self and others
386
00:32:58,745 --> 00:33:01,665
to enter a relationship.
387
00:33:01,957 --> 00:33:06,461
What I mean is that
eroticism is not a relationship.
388
00:33:06,586 --> 00:33:11,383
What it is, is obscenity or
lust as Sartre puts it.
389
00:33:11,508 --> 00:33:14,303
You lust for "an object."
390
00:33:14,428 --> 00:33:17,472
But when the self and others
391
00:33:17,597 --> 00:33:22,936
form a relationship
there's inevitably conflict.
392
00:33:23,145 --> 00:33:26,565
You asked about my view of the Other.
393
00:33:26,690 --> 00:33:30,235
It's something I've come to crave.
394
00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:36,617
As a novelist I aspired to
relate to the world erotically.
395
00:33:36,783 --> 00:33:42,039
I did that with my earlier novels.
That's why they're
396
00:33:42,164 --> 00:33:45,125
like Kenzaburo Oe's novels.
397
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:48,962
Then I became tired of it
398
00:33:49,129 --> 00:33:53,550
so I needed a relationship.
399
00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:57,054
A relationship yields conflict
400
00:33:57,179 --> 00:34:00,974
so I had to have a hypothetical Other.
401
00:34:01,141 --> 00:34:06,688
So I decided that
communism is my enemy.
402
00:34:08,190 --> 00:34:11,652
And it must remain that way.
403
00:34:11,818 --> 00:34:14,529
Communism is my enemy.
404
00:34:14,696 --> 00:34:18,325
Communism is my subjective Other.
405
00:34:21,370 --> 00:34:27,292
The audience was unaware that
the core members of the Shield Society
406
00:34:27,584 --> 00:34:31,922
sneaked in the hall
to protect him from assault.
407
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:34,549
Akihiro Hara (71)
408
00:34:34,633 --> 00:34:35,801
Former Shield Society member
He was in the front row.
409
00:34:35,884 --> 00:34:40,430
Mr. Mishima would be amongst
hostile activists
410
00:34:41,181 --> 00:34:43,183
on their turf.
411
00:34:43,392 --> 00:34:46,561
We thought that
something terrible
412
00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:51,024
could happen to him.
413
00:34:51,191 --> 00:34:55,279
We thought it'd be extraterritorial
414
00:34:56,780 --> 00:34:58,407
in a way.
415
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:06,081
The Shield Society opposed
communists and their revolution.
416
00:35:06,665 --> 00:35:10,752
They felt hostile towards
leftist movements.
417
00:35:13,088 --> 00:35:16,842
The communists wanted
a communal society...
418
00:35:16,967 --> 00:35:19,886
That's what
the left-wing activists
419
00:35:19,970 --> 00:35:20,721
Yutaka Shinohara (71)
420
00:35:20,804 --> 00:35:21,847
Former Shield Society member
Waseda University graduate
421
00:35:21,930 --> 00:35:25,892
The student leagues
wanted to achieve that.
422
00:35:27,394 --> 00:35:31,523
So for us they were
mortal enemies.
423
00:35:33,942 --> 00:35:37,738
The left-wingers had
a big presence
424
00:35:38,530 --> 00:35:42,200
and there were those
who didn't like that.
425
00:35:42,326 --> 00:35:43,243
Yukitomo Miyazawa (72)
426
00:35:43,327 --> 00:35:44,494
Former Shield Society member
Waseda University graduate
427
00:35:44,661 --> 00:35:46,455
Like us.
428
00:35:47,414 --> 00:35:48,707
Akihiro Hara
Former Shield Society member
429
00:35:48,874 --> 00:35:54,421
The University of Tokyo campus was
barricaded off that day.
430
00:35:54,546 --> 00:36:00,260
Tokyo University of Foreign Studies graduate
Zenkyoto had a security check at the gate,
431
00:36:00,385 --> 00:36:04,222
checking
everyone's identification.
432
00:36:07,142 --> 00:36:14,191
Once inside it was their turf.
Their signs were everywhere.
433
00:36:14,483 --> 00:36:18,278
Did a communism revolution
seem imminent?
434
00:36:18,403 --> 00:36:20,447
Yes.
435
00:36:20,572 --> 00:36:22,824
All university students
thought
436
00:36:22,908 --> 00:36:26,161
it might happen any time.
437
00:36:27,204 --> 00:36:31,541
It felt that way
when you entered the school gate.
438
00:36:31,708 --> 00:36:34,419
There was danger of a civil war.
439
00:36:35,963 --> 00:36:40,968
I know it sounds like a joke
but there really was.
440
00:36:42,594 --> 00:36:46,598
They were called "toy soldiers" but
441
00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:52,688
Mishima planned to deploy them
when the police failed to contain
442
00:36:52,813 --> 00:36:54,898
the New Left radicals.
443
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:59,861
Their Self-Defense Force training
was genuine.
444
00:37:03,198 --> 00:37:05,534
It was real military training.
445
00:37:06,952 --> 00:37:09,037
What we did...
446
00:37:11,498 --> 00:37:17,671
We did things that
Self-Defense recruits wouldn't do.
447
00:37:18,130 --> 00:37:22,259
I'm telling you because
enough time has passed.
448
00:37:25,012 --> 00:37:27,973
We used live ammunition.
449
00:37:29,891 --> 00:37:31,560
I don't think
450
00:37:31,685 --> 00:37:37,649
we were allowed to use live ammo.
451
00:37:39,276 --> 00:37:44,031
If the left-wing activists
came at us with batons
452
00:37:44,281 --> 00:37:50,662
we thought we could overcome them
with our samurai swords.
453
00:37:53,665 --> 00:37:57,878
Zenkyoto also thought
that they'd be attacked.
454
00:37:59,046 --> 00:38:00,672
Osamu Kimura
Former Zenkyoto member
455
00:38:00,797 --> 00:38:05,052
We had to be prepared for
possible violence so
456
00:38:05,177 --> 00:38:07,888
we had around the stage
457
00:38:08,764 --> 00:38:10,599
guys we could trust.
458
00:38:11,016 --> 00:38:15,646
We were afraid of the communists
and the Democratic Youths.
459
00:38:15,979 --> 00:38:21,485
It was quite possible that
they'd storm in with batons.
460
00:38:24,404 --> 00:38:30,869
The Democratic Youth League was
organized by the Communist Party.
461
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:38,418
They opposed Zenkyoto in ideology
and sided with the university.
462
00:38:39,461 --> 00:38:44,007
The Democratic Youth League
ran Komaba campus.
463
00:38:45,926 --> 00:38:50,973
It was like we were under
martial law.
464
00:38:51,098 --> 00:38:55,727
But there weren't enough of
them to cover the campus
465
00:38:57,396 --> 00:39:03,443
so we had a little freedom
around Lecture Hall 900.
466
00:39:06,321 --> 00:39:12,953
Lecture Hall 900 was miraculously
a neutral territory.
467
00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:23,630
Chapter 2
A duel
468
00:39:25,757 --> 00:39:30,262
One of the Zenkyoto members
made a proposition.
469
00:39:32,097 --> 00:39:35,392
...let me present this question.
470
00:39:35,809 --> 00:39:39,896
Man's relationship with nature
Let's discuss the idea of man vs. nature.
471
00:39:40,022 --> 00:39:43,025
Based on
what he's said so far,
472
00:39:43,150 --> 00:39:45,652
Mr. Mishima's
idea of nature
473
00:39:45,819 --> 00:39:49,156
is restricted to the human body
474
00:39:49,281 --> 00:39:53,952
and the will to put
one's body to use.
475
00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:59,499
To me, nature isn't tied to humans.
It exists before our eyes.
476
00:39:59,625 --> 00:40:04,630
Maybe we can't see it in the city
but I believe that it's there.
477
00:40:04,755 --> 00:40:08,383
The kind of nature
that rejects humans.
478
00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:11,678
What matters for us is how humans
479
00:40:11,803 --> 00:40:16,850
make the most of nature
which can't be controlled.
480
00:40:17,309 --> 00:40:18,727
Excuse me.
481
00:40:19,061 --> 00:40:24,232
In your rhetoric,
nature has many definitions.
482
00:40:24,358 --> 00:40:27,569
One is nature, found in rural Nagano.
483
00:40:27,694 --> 00:40:31,865
Another is found in
Tokyo's high-rise buildings.
484
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:35,994
Or do the riot police batons
embody nature?
485
00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:39,957
Or an environment
where production occurs...?
486
00:40:40,082 --> 00:40:46,672
So if we are to access production
via an object
487
00:40:46,797 --> 00:40:51,343
we may also access production
through a riot police baton.
488
00:40:51,468 --> 00:40:56,348
If the riot police officer beating you
is a farmer's son,
489
00:40:56,473 --> 00:41:00,227
you might find nature
in his spirit
490
00:41:00,352 --> 00:41:05,565
through the object
he beats you with.
491
00:41:05,857 --> 00:41:08,527
Don't understand nature at all.
492
00:41:08,652 --> 00:41:10,028
Who doesn't?
493
00:41:10,737 --> 00:41:12,990
What do you mean?
494
00:41:13,115 --> 00:41:16,702
You dropped the subjective noun.
495
00:41:16,827 --> 00:41:20,580
That's correct Japanese,
but who do you mean?
496
00:41:20,956 --> 00:41:22,291
You don't?
497
00:41:22,416 --> 00:41:26,128
- Or me?
- I know what you mean but
498
00:41:27,087 --> 00:41:30,507
you can't clarify anything
with that rhetoric.
499
00:41:31,008 --> 00:41:32,884
It's elusive.
500
00:41:33,051 --> 00:41:35,178
I see your point.
501
00:41:38,598 --> 00:41:41,727
The man on stage
with his daughter is
502
00:41:41,852 --> 00:41:47,566
Masahiko Akuta, the University of
Tokyo-Zenkyoto's best debater.
503
00:41:49,985 --> 00:41:55,282
Take this desk for example.
An ordinary, dirty desk.
504
00:41:55,407 --> 00:42:00,996
It's here at the University of Tokyo
to be used in lectures.
505
00:42:01,079 --> 00:42:05,751
But it can be repurposed
to build a barricade.
506
00:42:05,876 --> 00:42:09,713
Which the desk never dreamed
it would be.
507
00:42:09,838 --> 00:42:16,678
Its new purpose is detached
from what it was originally.
508
00:42:16,803 --> 00:42:19,139
It has become combative.
509
00:42:19,264 --> 00:42:25,395
When an object is detached from
the purpose it was produced for
510
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,858
you awaken to its
true modern meaning.
511
00:42:29,983 --> 00:42:35,197
Because you are detached
from the chain of production.
512
00:42:35,781 --> 00:42:42,120
And that's how you return to nature,
the basis of labor and production.
513
00:42:42,329 --> 00:42:45,415
Is that the impetus
for your violence?
514
00:42:45,540 --> 00:42:47,125
Violence...
515
00:42:47,918 --> 00:42:50,879
can't be clearly defined unless it's
516
00:42:51,213 --> 00:42:53,465
Relationality and objects
detached from other meanings.
517
00:42:53,590 --> 00:42:54,841
Relationality and objects
Sorry?
518
00:42:55,258 --> 00:42:59,554
A desk is a desk in the
space defined as university so
519
00:42:59,888 --> 00:43:02,432
no university, no desk.
520
00:43:03,350 --> 00:43:05,185
- An object.
- Indeed.
521
00:43:05,310 --> 00:43:08,522
In relational theory,
an object
522
00:43:08,647 --> 00:43:12,901
could be a weapon
or what we determine it to be.
523
00:43:13,110 --> 00:43:16,863
When relations are inverted
it's revolutionary.
524
00:43:17,906 --> 00:43:20,826
A space emerges in those relations.
525
00:43:21,118 --> 00:43:27,040
When you write about a desk,
your words weigh the same as the desk
526
00:43:27,165 --> 00:43:29,418
- or it becomes recit or roman.
- You're right.
527
00:43:29,584 --> 00:43:30,794
recit = story
roman = novel
528
00:43:30,961 --> 00:43:33,213
That's where
you were defeated.
529
00:43:33,338 --> 00:43:34,840
Not yet!
530
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:38,385
That's how it seems to me.
531
00:43:38,552 --> 00:43:39,845
For Mishima
532
00:43:40,095 --> 00:43:44,850
he saw perception as
the antithesis of action.
533
00:43:45,601 --> 00:43:50,522
He reached adulthood
when Japan lost WWII
534
00:43:50,647 --> 00:43:53,692
and his impression of the survivors
535
00:43:53,817 --> 00:43:58,822
was that they put their perceptions
before action.
536
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:04,828
Keiichiro Hirano Novelist
He believed that action should come first.
537
00:44:05,495 --> 00:44:10,459
He thought that
by prioritizing perceptions
538
00:44:10,584 --> 00:44:13,253
you'd never touch "actuality."
539
00:44:13,337 --> 00:44:17,716
And as a survivor,
he compensated for that tendency.
540
00:44:17,841 --> 00:44:20,969
So Akuta told him he was defeated.
541
00:44:21,136 --> 00:44:24,765
And that highlighted Mishima's dilemma.
542
00:44:24,890 --> 00:44:31,146
Akuta told Mishima that
his perceptions weren't real to him.
543
00:44:31,271 --> 00:44:34,191
He was provoking Mishima.
544
00:44:35,817 --> 00:44:40,405
A writer writes. His writings are
the objects he produces.
545
00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:44,034
That's the reality of a writer.
546
00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:47,746
Like you say, it has nothing to do
with production.
547
00:44:47,913 --> 00:44:48,622
Right.
548
00:44:49,206 --> 00:44:54,336
Writing is detached from the act
of production, so existentially
549
00:44:54,461 --> 00:44:56,755
it doesn't relate to us.
550
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:58,048
Right.
551
00:44:58,215 --> 00:45:00,509
You spoke of "space"...
552
00:45:00,884 --> 00:45:02,844
It's mere Form.
553
00:45:04,930 --> 00:45:07,015
- So I
- OK, go on.
554
00:45:07,182 --> 00:45:11,895
That's where I think
you lost the game.
555
00:45:12,229 --> 00:45:15,274
The Form you use to express yourself
556
00:45:15,399 --> 00:45:19,236
has as little impact on us
as violence.
557
00:45:20,362 --> 00:45:25,784
Our action is Form and content
at the same time.
558
00:45:25,909 --> 00:45:30,580
It's just an expression,
not a revolution
559
00:45:30,706 --> 00:45:36,920
but history's potential is
in the space our action embodied.
560
00:45:37,921 --> 00:45:44,886
That's what we do. Anything you say
as a writer is embarrassing.
561
00:45:45,012 --> 00:45:48,348
You want to turn
your game into demagogy.
562
00:45:48,473 --> 00:45:51,143
You don't exist without Japan.
563
00:45:51,518 --> 00:45:53,061
- That's me.
- Yes.
564
00:45:56,315 --> 00:46:01,862
But my ancestors can not be found in
Japan or anywhere else.
565
00:46:01,987 --> 00:46:02,904
Right.
566
00:46:03,030 --> 00:46:07,993
But I'm not a "Stranger."
Everyone else became "Strangers."
567
00:46:08,118 --> 00:46:08,910
Right.
568
00:46:09,036 --> 00:46:12,831
So we are ready to advance
to the 21st century.
569
00:46:13,915 --> 00:46:17,085
Why kill in order to protect culture?
570
00:46:21,173 --> 00:46:23,592
Masahiko Akuta (73)
Former Zenkyoto member
571
00:46:23,717 --> 00:46:26,219
Does the Emperor symbolize culture?
572
00:46:28,555 --> 00:46:35,729
Without addressing those questions
Mishima is just a demagogue.
573
00:46:39,358 --> 00:46:42,611
Akuta led an experimental
theater group.
574
00:46:42,736 --> 00:46:48,742
He wrote, directed and acted
in productions.
575
00:46:50,369 --> 00:46:55,582
He co-published Underground Theatre
with Shuji Terayama
576
00:46:55,958 --> 00:46:59,378
and was a pioneer in
experimental theater.
577
00:47:00,253 --> 00:47:02,172
I'm an actor.
578
00:47:02,297 --> 00:47:07,135
Changing theater means changing
what it means to be human.
579
00:47:07,260 --> 00:47:09,596
It's also about changing the arts.
580
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,556
That's avant-garde.
581
00:47:11,807 --> 00:47:16,561
If the arts can't change,
nothing can.
582
00:47:17,437 --> 00:47:22,776
Revolution is the purest form of poetry.
583
00:47:23,443 --> 00:47:25,821
How can you turn
584
00:47:26,488 --> 00:47:29,700
the transcendental into a theory?
585
00:47:29,866 --> 00:47:31,952
With theater.
586
00:47:33,245 --> 00:47:36,039
Osamu Kimura Former Zenkyoto member
What Akuta does...
587
00:47:36,832 --> 00:47:38,750
How can I put it?
588
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,547
He deconstructs
all established concepts.
589
00:47:44,214 --> 00:47:48,385
He was cutting-edge avant-garde.
590
00:47:49,511 --> 00:47:51,680
Daisaburo Hashizume
was with Akuta's theater company
591
00:47:51,847 --> 00:47:54,891
He was also a talented painter.
592
00:47:55,934 --> 00:47:57,769
A true artist.
593
00:47:58,312 --> 00:47:59,313
Akuta Hashizume
594
00:47:59,313 --> 00:48:00,939
Everyone knew that.
595
00:48:07,988 --> 00:48:10,449
Thoughts are a liberated zone.
596
00:48:10,866 --> 00:48:15,287
Intellectuals cultivate
beautiful liberated zones
597
00:48:15,412 --> 00:48:21,335
so we felt a responsibility to cultivate it.
598
00:48:21,460 --> 00:48:26,006
We invited Mishima to foster that environment.
599
00:48:26,715 --> 00:48:28,425
To make a liberated zone
600
00:48:28,592 --> 00:48:31,637
we need both new and old ideas.
601
00:48:33,305 --> 00:48:37,142
Let's talk about simpler things.
602
00:48:37,351 --> 00:48:39,770
Something easier to grasp,
like a "liberated zone."
603
00:48:40,020 --> 00:48:41,605
Liberated zones
604
00:48:41,855 --> 00:48:43,649
Let's discuss that.
605
00:48:44,232 --> 00:48:50,447
In the moment that an object
collides with another object
606
00:48:50,572 --> 00:48:54,826
does a liberated zone emerge
in that space?
607
00:48:56,620 --> 00:48:57,913
- Yes.
- OK.
608
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:07,214
A "liberated zone" is a place
under the revolutionists' control
609
00:49:08,548 --> 00:49:15,555
such as the Yasuda Auditorium during
the University of Tokyo riots.
610
00:49:17,265 --> 00:49:21,228
The space, whether it's created
or distorted
611
00:49:21,353 --> 00:49:23,605
will temporarily persist
612
00:49:23,730 --> 00:49:26,692
There's no time or relation
in space.
613
00:49:26,817 --> 00:49:29,111
- No relation?
- Or distortion.
614
00:49:29,236 --> 00:49:34,074
It's the original state. "Returning
to nature" as Rousseau put it.
615
00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:35,784
Nature.
616
00:49:36,285 --> 00:49:40,289
So whether the space persists or not
617
00:49:40,372 --> 00:49:42,833
is not important?
618
00:49:43,875 --> 00:49:46,795
There's no time so it can't persist.
619
00:49:46,962 --> 00:49:50,090
Then whether it lasted for 3 minutes
620
00:49:50,215 --> 00:49:54,011
or if it lasted as long as 10 days
621
00:49:54,177 --> 00:49:57,472
there is essentially no difference?
622
00:49:57,597 --> 00:50:01,435
It's wrong to even compare them.
623
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,645
Dimensionally?
624
00:50:03,770 --> 00:50:08,442
Is your work comparable to
thousands of years of time?
625
00:50:08,609 --> 00:50:09,985
I think not.
626
00:50:10,110 --> 00:50:15,490
But it's a part of
that continuum of time.
627
00:50:15,782 --> 00:50:19,620
I intend to express time,
if not space.
628
00:50:19,745 --> 00:50:22,372
If liberated zones express space
629
00:50:22,497 --> 00:50:26,335
I'd like to know how that
intersects with time.
630
00:50:26,460 --> 00:50:29,671
So in terms of the tactics
of revolution
631
00:50:29,796 --> 00:50:34,217
it'd be good if the liberated zone
lasted a week.
632
00:50:34,384 --> 00:50:39,181
So if it lasted for 3 or 4 hours,
does that mean
633
00:50:39,306 --> 00:50:42,851
it didn't last
or didn't it have to?
634
00:50:42,935 --> 00:50:45,938
Shouldn't revolution be persistent?
635
00:50:46,063 --> 00:50:49,358
I'm not a leader but if I may...
636
00:50:49,483 --> 00:50:54,112
Those who created the zone were
failed by it.
637
00:50:54,446 --> 00:50:57,741
Not by the riot police?
638
00:50:57,866 --> 00:50:58,617
No.
639
00:50:58,742 --> 00:51:01,703
Did the zone fail because of
objects
640
00:51:01,828 --> 00:51:03,747
or time?
641
00:51:04,164 --> 00:51:09,878
It's the reification
of objects and/or space.
642
00:51:10,003 --> 00:51:17,260
Don't reified objects or space
negate the existing condition?
643
00:51:17,678 --> 00:51:20,597
It never fails to negate
644
00:51:20,764 --> 00:51:24,977
I disagree because it's relational.
Like civilization...
645
00:51:25,102 --> 00:51:30,732
History is an existential way for us
to deal with reification.
646
00:51:30,857 --> 00:51:34,319
- History is persistent.
- No
647
00:51:35,946 --> 00:51:39,157
It's a space of potential,
it's freedom.
648
00:51:39,324 --> 00:51:42,577
However when freedom is given
649
00:51:43,537 --> 00:51:49,710
we often fail, it's a habit
reinforced by civilization.
650
00:51:49,835 --> 00:51:55,173
But what we do with barricades
is a form of perceiving history.
651
00:51:55,299 --> 00:52:00,137
But we don't perceive like a sniper.
We do it with a shotgun.
652
00:52:00,262 --> 00:52:02,514
That's post-Sartre.
653
00:52:03,223 --> 00:52:05,976
So your action is a new perception.
654
00:52:06,310 --> 00:52:10,981
And there is no room for
persistence in that perception?
655
00:52:11,064 --> 00:52:13,317
No intention to make it last?
656
00:52:13,442 --> 00:52:16,278
Let's say a cigarette pack is made
657
00:52:16,445 --> 00:52:20,949
and if it disappeared the same moment,
you couldn't smoke one!
658
00:52:21,074 --> 00:52:25,912
Time has passed since
it was manufactured and sold to me.
659
00:52:26,038 --> 00:52:30,334
Now I can smoke one
and pretend to look relaxed.
660
00:52:32,961 --> 00:52:36,423
Due to the time passed
since production
661
00:52:36,548 --> 00:52:40,761
You smoke to force time to persist.
662
00:52:42,012 --> 00:52:44,681
I don't have to force it to persist.
663
00:52:44,806 --> 00:52:48,435
But it doesn't persist.
And you feel lost because
664
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,813
you're other-directed.
665
00:52:52,898 --> 00:52:56,109
Daisaburo Hashizume Former Zenkyoto member
Let me elaborate on what Akuta means.
666
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,571
For him art is above everything.
667
00:52:59,738 --> 00:53:03,867
He has a primal drive
to create liberated zones.
668
00:53:05,077 --> 00:53:11,375
Because Akuta believes humanity
has become corrupt and tainted.
669
00:53:12,125 --> 00:53:16,630
It's warped and damaged
and can't be left like that.
670
00:53:16,755 --> 00:53:20,008
That's not the human truth.
671
00:53:20,717 --> 00:53:25,472
To restore what makes
humanity distinct.
672
00:53:26,223 --> 00:53:30,227
And restore our primal condition.
673
00:53:31,353 --> 00:53:36,858
We need a zone where we're
liberated and that's what art is.
674
00:53:40,112 --> 00:53:45,951
We may fail but that doesn't
make our attempt meaningless.
675
00:53:47,577 --> 00:53:52,791
Akuta wanted to say to Mishima
that he lacked faith in his art
676
00:53:52,916 --> 00:53:56,962
so how could he call himself
an artist?
677
00:53:58,588 --> 00:54:02,134
Keiichiro Hirano Novelist
That was a very remarkable scene.
678
00:54:02,259 --> 00:54:06,555
Mishima gave a lot of thought
to the issue of "persistence."
679
00:54:07,973 --> 00:54:14,187
His novels are characterized
with moments of ecstasy.
680
00:54:14,313 --> 00:54:21,194
His characters might dream
of a momentary achievement.
681
00:54:21,361 --> 00:54:27,367
They rarely spent decades
achieving their goal.
682
00:54:29,036 --> 00:54:31,455
Your action falls short.
683
00:54:31,580 --> 00:54:36,335
Everything concludes within
relationality, without actuality.
684
00:54:37,294 --> 00:54:42,299
Indeed. Inherently words can not
affect actual material.
685
00:54:42,424 --> 00:54:46,261
So I take actions in the attempt to
686
00:54:46,386 --> 00:54:49,139
But as long as you can write
687
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,770
you don't have to try
demagogy with other activities.
688
00:54:54,978 --> 00:54:57,898
Your writing is autonomous so
689
00:54:58,398 --> 00:55:03,445
But I'm saying that I'm not content
with an autonomous space.
690
00:55:03,570 --> 00:55:06,323
I think you're just bluffing!
691
00:55:17,501 --> 00:55:24,174
Ogawa, a TBS reporter, was covering
the debate from the front row.
692
00:55:24,633 --> 00:55:26,259
Kunio Ogawa (75)
Former TBS Reporter
693
00:55:26,385 --> 00:55:29,179
There's this man who came in
with a baby.
694
00:55:29,346 --> 00:55:33,934
Everyone in the hall
responded strongly to it.
695
00:55:34,142 --> 00:55:40,482
I still remember how it lightened
the tense atmosphere.
696
00:55:40,941 --> 00:55:45,279
Mishima spoke with a lot of humor.
My overall impression
697
00:55:45,696 --> 00:55:51,159
of the debate was that it
progressed in an unexpected direction.
698
00:55:51,285 --> 00:55:55,414
I was so engaged in the whole thing.
699
00:55:58,166 --> 00:56:03,588
Armed with unique arguments, Akuta
didn't hesitate to criticize Mishima.
700
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,843
Why do all writers write
like critics today?
701
00:56:07,968 --> 00:56:11,888
The answer relates to where you are
and what you see.
702
00:56:12,014 --> 00:56:13,515
And you, Mishima.
703
00:56:14,891 --> 00:56:19,229
We're at a university
but if we deny relationality
704
00:56:19,354 --> 00:56:22,316
of all objects
705
00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:25,360
we can't answer the question.
706
00:56:25,485 --> 00:56:29,197
We won't even be able to
call this a desk.
707
00:56:29,364 --> 00:56:32,659
There'd be no Lecture Hall 900...
708
00:56:35,537 --> 00:56:39,124
So we pretend that
709
00:56:39,541 --> 00:56:43,795
everything is unavoidably related
so that
710
00:56:44,338 --> 00:56:48,216
we can invert that relationality.
711
00:56:49,343 --> 00:56:54,681
That's why we make barricades,
to deny relationality.
712
00:56:54,806 --> 00:57:01,939
Then we'd have to define everything
in relation to a new viewpoint.
713
00:57:02,898 --> 00:57:07,319
Next time we stage a blockade,
there'll be many Blanquists.
714
00:57:07,486 --> 00:57:12,032
It'll be the era of agitators
and demagogues.
715
00:57:14,159 --> 00:57:18,163
A revolution on a national scale
might fail but
716
00:57:18,288 --> 00:57:25,170
those who are both Blanquists and
Trotskyists will succeed.
717
00:57:25,545 --> 00:57:31,176
Then we'd deal with time's actual
persistence, as you mentioned.
718
00:57:31,677 --> 00:57:34,304
Then it'll be a form of fiction
719
00:57:36,139 --> 00:57:39,768
that would dominate in the end.
720
00:57:40,102 --> 00:57:42,521
That's why I do theater.
721
00:57:42,854 --> 00:57:45,983
It's one or the other.
722
00:57:46,108 --> 00:57:50,028
Your book, Sun and Steel is
what I call "The testicle's spirit."
723
00:57:50,153 --> 00:57:52,239
Sun and Steel (1968)
A semi-autobiographical essay
724
00:57:52,364 --> 00:57:54,950
It's about distribution
of values.
725
00:57:55,284 --> 00:58:00,038
Excess produce allows a hippy
like me to make a baby,
726
00:58:00,163 --> 00:58:01,915
with no job.
727
00:58:03,500 --> 00:58:08,588
Distribution is unequal
to objects and people.
728
00:58:10,632 --> 00:58:15,012
Sun and Steel points to that
in an infantile way.
729
00:58:16,722 --> 00:58:19,308
Proper distribution of values
730
00:58:19,433 --> 00:58:23,937
can't be realized with
our consciousness.
731
00:58:24,062 --> 00:58:26,356
We exist. Objects exist.
732
00:58:26,481 --> 00:58:30,402
Sartre's understanding of
image is obsolete.
733
00:58:30,986 --> 00:58:35,490
What we have to do is
transcend image with objects.
734
00:58:37,993 --> 00:58:42,706
We tend to see things as
images because it's easier.
735
00:58:42,873 --> 00:58:47,794
We try to deal with things with
our eyes closed.
736
00:58:48,712 --> 00:58:53,508
Light helps us
see beyond an object.
737
00:58:53,675 --> 00:58:58,305
The first step is to realize
anything around you is a weapon.
738
00:58:58,972 --> 00:59:02,476
A glass, at a glance, can be a weapon.
739
00:59:02,768 --> 00:59:05,729
It's easier.
Some people prefer that.
740
00:59:05,854 --> 00:59:11,234
Is your body a weapon?
You have to pursue that potential.
741
00:59:12,778 --> 00:59:16,573
What lies between objects and us?
742
00:59:16,698 --> 00:59:18,617
I can't see anything.
743
00:59:18,909 --> 00:59:25,332
There's supposed to be a nation and
people in power but I can't see them.
744
00:59:25,958 --> 00:59:29,753
So that's where I want to start.
745
00:59:32,297 --> 00:59:34,967
That was very interesting.
746
00:59:35,092 --> 00:59:37,219
I have 2 questions.
747
00:59:37,344 --> 00:59:40,847
One is when nothing has a name.
748
00:59:40,973 --> 00:59:46,144
Names are a form of continuation so
749
00:59:46,436 --> 00:59:53,277
without them
could we be relationally defined?
750
00:59:53,652 --> 00:59:55,153
And also
751
00:59:55,279 --> 00:59:59,825
we exist, objects exist
and we use them.
752
00:59:59,992 --> 01:00:04,830
But can we disregard
the teleological point of view?
753
01:00:05,163 --> 01:00:07,457
When we see a spoon
754
01:00:07,582 --> 01:00:12,170
we see its purpose
which is to eat food with.
755
01:00:12,379 --> 01:00:16,717
"Can we use things without purpose?"
is the question.
756
01:00:18,635 --> 01:00:23,890
Answering the 1st question.
Should things be relational?
757
01:00:24,016 --> 01:00:28,478
Not necessarily. It depends.
758
01:00:28,604 --> 01:00:31,690
I mean, why do unnamed objects
759
01:00:31,982 --> 01:00:36,069
end up relational
only to be transcended again?
760
01:00:36,194 --> 01:00:39,489
Because we rely on
the walker called civilization.
761
01:00:39,865 --> 01:00:43,118
That's exactly how Trotsky failed.
762
01:00:43,452 --> 01:00:44,661
Keiichiro Hirano
Novelist
763
01:00:44,786 --> 01:00:49,666
Let's say Akuta managed
to create a liberated zone...
764
01:00:49,791 --> 01:00:53,128
if he really wanted to
change society,
765
01:00:53,253 --> 01:00:57,674
he'd have to rely on words to
systematically change it.
766
01:00:57,799 --> 01:01:05,098
Without words we have no assessment
and ability to procure food.
767
01:01:05,265 --> 01:01:09,436
If each object or phenomenon
had no name
768
01:01:09,561 --> 01:01:14,983
the system couldn't persist
with no logical organization.
769
01:01:15,108 --> 01:01:19,071
That's why Mishima asked
about persistency.
770
01:01:19,196 --> 01:01:25,410
If you want your creation to persist
you need words.
771
01:01:25,535 --> 01:01:30,791
In that sense, what Mishima did with
words has actuality.
772
01:01:31,124 --> 01:01:32,584
Masahiko Akuta
Former Zenkyoto member
773
01:01:32,709 --> 01:01:37,214
In a liberated zone, you'd also
be liberated from time.
774
01:01:40,008 --> 01:01:44,346
It's dangerous to think
that time is absolute.
775
01:01:44,805 --> 01:01:46,390
You mean, history?
776
01:01:46,515 --> 01:01:49,268
History and also power.
777
01:01:51,019 --> 01:01:53,730
A man in power sees things his way.
778
01:01:54,439 --> 01:01:55,565
Right?
779
01:01:55,774 --> 01:02:03,532
Only Mishima would be happy to be
trapped in an unliberated time.
780
01:02:07,119 --> 01:02:10,247
An audience member yelled,
781
01:02:10,914 --> 01:02:13,292
"It's all philosophical nonsense!"
782
01:02:13,417 --> 01:02:18,880
"I'm here to see Mishima get beaten up!"
783
01:02:23,468 --> 01:02:24,678
Go on then.
784
01:02:28,015 --> 01:02:32,561
Don't just say that
from back there...
785
01:02:35,397 --> 01:02:38,942
Come up here if you want to beat him!
786
01:02:39,192 --> 01:02:40,277
Come on!
787
01:02:41,111 --> 01:02:44,031
- Come on!
- Right here.
788
01:02:46,116 --> 01:02:47,659
Go ahead!
789
01:02:50,287 --> 01:02:51,622
Beat him.
790
01:02:52,331 --> 01:02:54,249
Don't back off.
791
01:02:58,170 --> 01:02:59,296
Who do you want?
792
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:00,922
Me?
793
01:03:01,298 --> 01:03:04,009
- Not you.
- I'm game.
794
01:03:05,052 --> 01:03:07,721
- Generally
- Use the mic!
795
01:03:08,347 --> 01:03:12,309
By abstracting relationality
with no boundaries
796
01:03:12,476 --> 01:03:16,188
you're just toying with ideas.
797
01:03:16,313 --> 01:03:19,316
When there is Man
798
01:03:20,108 --> 01:03:23,654
We inevitably have the Other.
799
01:03:23,779 --> 01:03:26,949
How you formulate an argument is
800
01:03:27,074 --> 01:03:30,327
Relationality is obscenity, moron!
801
01:03:30,577 --> 01:03:34,623
Turning relations
upside down is revolutionary!
802
01:03:34,748 --> 01:03:35,499
No.
803
01:03:35,999 --> 01:03:41,463
Existential relations in
actual society come first.
804
01:03:41,588 --> 01:03:47,052
You have to build your argument on them,
expanding your consciousness.
805
01:03:47,177 --> 01:03:49,221
- But you do it by rejecting
- Boring!
806
01:03:49,346 --> 01:03:53,183
the spatial coexistence of the Other.
807
01:03:53,308 --> 01:03:56,937
You give Zenkyoto a bad name!
808
01:03:57,104 --> 01:03:59,898
Don't call yourself a member.
809
01:04:02,484 --> 01:04:05,570
Let me rephrase the point
of the argument.
810
01:04:05,696 --> 01:04:08,657
We acknowledge actual relations.
811
01:04:08,782 --> 01:04:12,744
On that condition,
when we focus on objects...
812
01:04:12,911 --> 01:04:16,373
When we focus on relationality
813
01:04:16,540 --> 01:04:20,294
and we behave...
814
01:04:22,045 --> 01:04:28,552
as active subjects
we can't ignore actual relations.
815
01:04:29,636 --> 01:04:30,721
Masahiko Akuta
Former Zenkyoto member
816
01:04:30,846 --> 01:04:35,642
I had 2 Short Peace cigarettes.
Mishima had 4.
817
01:04:35,767 --> 01:04:41,106
I finished mine so I took one of his.
We smoked 3 each.
818
01:04:41,690 --> 01:04:46,445
I meant to return it but...
819
01:04:49,615 --> 01:04:52,242
Media and World Revolution
820
01:04:52,242 --> 01:04:55,954
In 1968 many political movements
were underway
821
01:04:56,413 --> 01:04:59,541
May '68 in Paris
all across the world.
822
01:04:59,875 --> 01:05:00,876
The Prague Spring
823
01:05:00,876 --> 01:05:03,545
The televised accounts spread
824
01:05:03,545 --> 01:05:06,131
The American civil rights movement
across the world
825
01:05:06,298 --> 01:05:08,258
which roused the activists.
826
01:05:08,383 --> 01:05:12,054
Protesting against
the US Army Oji Field Hospital
827
01:05:12,679 --> 01:05:16,099
Eiji Oguma (56)
Sociologist Author of 1968
828
01:05:16,350 --> 01:05:21,647
In my opinion, if television
didn't exist in 1968
829
01:05:22,147 --> 01:05:26,109
the University of
Tokyo student riots
830
01:05:26,234 --> 01:05:30,948
wouldn't have gained
national attention.
831
01:05:31,156 --> 01:05:35,911
Because the riots were at
the University of Tokyo
832
01:05:36,036 --> 01:05:40,123
it attracted the attention
of the news media.
833
01:05:40,248 --> 01:05:45,545
If it had been elsewhere, it wouldn't
have been newsworthy.
834
01:05:49,174 --> 01:05:52,928
The news media was present
in Lecture Hall 900.
835
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:58,183
Osamu Kimura Former Zenkyoto member
I had been interviewed by TBS.
836
01:05:59,017 --> 01:06:04,064
That's why
I asked them to come.
837
01:06:04,189 --> 01:06:10,279
The University of Tokyo graduates
have their futures mapped out.
838
01:06:10,404 --> 01:06:17,452
But I reject that because
it's unfair to taxpayers.
839
01:06:17,577 --> 01:06:23,500
They brought in a powerful light
for their camera.
840
01:06:24,334 --> 01:06:26,253
It was blinding.
841
01:06:27,212 --> 01:06:29,298
Kunio Ogawa
Former TBS Reporter
842
01:06:29,423 --> 01:06:34,136
Student activism attracted
national attention so
843
01:06:34,261 --> 01:06:37,723
we created a team to cover it.
844
01:06:37,848 --> 01:06:43,395
The crew would ask the students
about their intentions.
845
01:06:46,648 --> 01:06:49,818
Mishima called
Shinchosha Publishing.
846
01:06:50,819 --> 01:06:55,699
They sent
a photographer named Hiroshi Shimizu.
847
01:06:57,034 --> 01:06:59,870
Hiroshi Shimizu (84)
Photographer
848
01:06:59,995 --> 01:07:04,541
I entered from the right
and crossed the stage behind Mishima.
849
01:07:05,542 --> 01:07:09,338
Then I closed in on him from the left.
850
01:07:09,463 --> 01:07:12,966
I got him to look at my camera.
851
01:07:13,925 --> 01:07:20,057
He was very conscious of the camera,
as if to say "Go on, shoot more."
852
01:07:20,557 --> 01:07:26,688
So I instinctively snapped
more photos.
853
01:07:31,735 --> 01:07:35,447
So the monumental occasion
was recorded.
854
01:07:36,281 --> 01:07:41,536
Mishima had a lot of media exposure
so he knew the power of media.
855
01:07:41,662 --> 01:07:45,832
He knew how to dazzle people
with his looks.
856
01:07:46,708 --> 01:07:49,753
Mishima's strength was his use
of photos and the printed word.
857
01:07:49,878 --> 01:07:51,922
Eiji Oguma Sociologist
858
01:07:52,214 --> 01:07:59,429
They enhanced his image
as a great literary figure.
859
01:07:59,638 --> 01:08:03,892
He was a world renowned author
who also worked out.
860
01:08:04,351 --> 01:08:11,358
He was also anti-intellectual so
young people thought he was cool.
861
01:08:11,483 --> 01:08:13,694
"Mishima: Japan's dandiest man.
Toshiro Mifune: 2nd place"
862
01:08:13,819 --> 01:08:18,740
Shiine was Mishima's editor
so they knew each other very well.
863
01:08:19,241 --> 01:08:21,034
Yamato Shiine (77)
864
01:08:21,159 --> 01:08:23,829
Mishima's editor at Heibon Punch magazine
He recounts his first meeting with Mishima.
865
01:08:23,996 --> 01:08:29,835
I'd arrived at the Imperial Hotel
first so I waited for him.
866
01:08:30,002 --> 01:08:37,384
When he entered the ballroom,
100 guests turned to look at him.
867
01:08:37,968 --> 01:08:43,223
All eyes were on Mishima.
868
01:08:44,433 --> 01:08:46,685
There was total silence.
869
01:08:46,810 --> 01:08:51,356
The clink of cutlery on plates
suddenly stopped and
870
01:08:51,481 --> 01:08:54,234
everyone focused on Mishima.
871
01:08:55,068 --> 01:09:00,240
That's how he was. He was a star.
872
01:09:05,245 --> 01:09:07,706
Jakucho Setouchi (97)
Novelist/Buddhist monk Mishima's friend
873
01:09:07,914 --> 01:09:11,501
Before she became a novelist
she wrote Mishima fan letters
874
01:09:11,627 --> 01:09:13,920
through which they became friends.
875
01:09:14,379 --> 01:09:18,759
He wrote me back and
explained why.
876
01:09:18,884 --> 01:09:23,805
He said it was because he found
my letters interesting.
877
01:09:23,889 --> 01:09:29,645
So I tried to make each letter
more interesting.
878
01:09:29,811 --> 01:09:32,314
He had a great sense of humor.
879
01:09:32,522 --> 01:09:35,609
I could tell he was a genius.
880
01:09:35,734 --> 01:09:40,405
I have never seen such lively
eyes as his!
881
01:09:40,530 --> 01:09:47,162
He was very lean and slight
but he had this power.
882
01:09:47,329 --> 01:09:51,291
I'd never seen eyes like his.
883
01:09:51,458 --> 01:09:55,796
When I looked at him
I saw the eyes of a genius.
884
01:09:58,924 --> 01:10:04,805
Chapter 3
Mishima and the Emperor
885
01:10:06,890 --> 01:10:11,687
Kosaka, a Zenkyoto member
made a bold move
886
01:10:11,770 --> 01:10:17,025
by directing the debate towards
Mishima's views on the Emperor.
887
01:10:18,402 --> 01:10:22,823
What is the Emperor to Mishima
and the nation to us?
888
01:10:22,948 --> 01:10:27,369
I think we'll get somewhere
on that topic.
889
01:10:27,619 --> 01:10:28,870
For example, quite seriously
890
01:10:28,870 --> 01:10:30,372
On Emperor
For example, quite seriously
891
01:10:30,580 --> 01:10:34,793
when you guys barricaded off
Yasuda Auditorium
892
01:10:34,918 --> 01:10:38,422
if you'd mentioned "Emperor" just once
893
01:10:38,547 --> 01:10:41,842
I'd have joined your cause.
894
01:10:42,009 --> 01:10:44,136
Gladly.
895
01:10:44,261 --> 01:10:48,265
I'm not kidding.
I always say this.
896
01:10:48,515 --> 01:10:54,104
The direct democracy of the 1920s
and the 30s...that's not right.
897
01:10:54,229 --> 01:10:59,568
The principles of imperial sovereignty
and direct democracy
898
01:10:59,693 --> 01:11:02,863
are almost identical.
899
01:11:03,113 --> 01:11:06,033
It's a fantastical concept but
900
01:11:06,158 --> 01:11:10,412
there is one thing both
systems have in common.
901
01:11:10,495 --> 01:11:12,623
I'll tell you what it is.
902
01:11:12,748 --> 01:11:15,792
The people
903
01:11:15,959 --> 01:11:19,796
without going through
any system of authority,
904
01:11:19,921 --> 01:11:23,467
dreamed of being one with
the nation.
905
01:11:23,717 --> 01:11:29,222
There were coups before WWII
to achieve this but they failed.
906
01:11:29,473 --> 01:11:34,227
Before WWII, the word, "Emperor"
prefaced intentions.
907
01:11:34,353 --> 01:11:39,942
You don't have it today.
You think it'd serve no purpose.
908
01:11:40,067 --> 01:11:44,404
Have you thought about how
the word "Emperor"
909
01:11:44,529 --> 01:11:48,033
affects Japan's lower class?
910
01:11:48,158 --> 01:11:53,747
If you think about it, the word,
"Emperor" is unambiguous.
911
01:11:53,872 --> 01:11:58,001
It might make the impossible possible.
912
01:11:58,418 --> 01:12:02,631
I guess it's clear that when
I mention the "Emperor"
913
01:12:02,756 --> 01:12:09,304
it isn't His Majesty who
I have in mind as that entity.
914
01:12:10,305 --> 01:12:14,309
- I want to change that.
- He's the establishment!
915
01:12:14,434 --> 01:12:16,228
Good point!
916
01:12:16,353 --> 01:12:19,648
- To do it
- Bandits should die in prison!
917
01:12:19,773 --> 01:12:23,110
That's true. However
918
01:12:23,235 --> 01:12:25,904
I, the Emperor, have plenty to eat.
919
01:12:26,071 --> 01:12:28,532
Only communists would say
920
01:12:28,657 --> 01:12:30,826
such a vulgar thing.
921
01:12:30,951 --> 01:12:34,246
Yes, the people you don't like.
922
01:12:34,413 --> 01:12:39,209
The Emperor is not
as bourgeois as you'd assume.
923
01:12:39,334 --> 01:12:45,799
If he was bourgeois,
your revolution would've been easier.
924
01:12:45,924 --> 01:12:48,969
That's why it's difficult.
925
01:12:49,428 --> 01:12:55,058
Both you and I struggle
with the same difficulty.
926
01:12:55,183 --> 01:12:57,769
It involves all social classes.
927
01:12:57,894 --> 01:13:00,939
Is the solution's name, Emperor?
928
01:13:01,106 --> 01:13:03,817
I don't know, but I call it that.
929
01:13:03,942 --> 01:13:07,863
None of us will succeed
unless we understand this.
930
01:13:08,572 --> 01:13:12,034
To him, the Emperor represented power.
931
01:13:13,243 --> 01:13:17,748
He saw it as a way of
bringing salvation to Japan.
932
01:13:18,582 --> 01:13:21,960
As an embodiment of Japanese culture.
933
01:13:22,628 --> 01:13:27,924
Culminating with the Emperor.
934
01:13:28,550 --> 01:13:32,471
A source of energy that
compels us unconsciously.
935
01:13:32,596 --> 01:13:38,644
A symbol that would be
the focus of energy.
936
01:13:38,769 --> 01:13:44,816
A political symbol, I suppose.
Mishima called it "the Emperor."
937
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:49,613
You think what I do is embarrassing.
938
01:13:49,738 --> 01:13:54,952
Wearing military gear and
training with SDF soldiers.
939
01:13:55,077 --> 01:14:00,582
But to me, you're just as embarrassing,
dressed like cleaners.
940
01:14:01,124 --> 01:14:08,131
I believe that your action
is just as invalid as mine.
941
01:14:09,091 --> 01:14:12,844
Killing one another
might bring validity.
942
01:14:12,970 --> 01:14:15,847
If this is the time, we'll do that.
943
01:14:15,973 --> 01:14:20,978
That'd be the only way for us
to reach a conclusion.
944
01:14:24,898 --> 01:14:28,402
Survivor's guilt
945
01:14:28,527 --> 01:14:34,700
Those born in the 1930s
all shared similar issues.
946
01:14:34,825 --> 01:14:38,620
They were teenagers when
Japan lost the war.
947
01:14:38,745 --> 01:14:43,292
Boys were resigned to dying
in the war.
948
01:14:43,417 --> 01:14:48,797
They grew up accepting that's
how their life would be.
949
01:14:48,922 --> 01:14:54,469
In their childhood, the fate of
the nation was tied to their own.
950
01:14:54,594 --> 01:14:57,180
But that ended on August 15, 1945.
951
01:14:57,306 --> 01:15:01,852
Suddenly you and
the nation were separate entities.
952
01:15:01,935 --> 01:15:06,398
Japan lost its sovereignty
and was subordinate to America.
953
01:15:06,773 --> 01:15:09,192
Tatsuru Uchida
Professor emeritus at Kobe College
954
01:15:09,401 --> 01:15:14,323
They want it how it was before. Their own
fate was synchronized with that of the nation.
955
01:15:14,448 --> 01:15:20,662
It gave them a sense of elation.
They missed that euphoria
956
01:15:20,787 --> 01:15:25,125
and wanted to experience it again.
957
01:15:26,168 --> 01:15:27,919
Keiichiro Hirano Novelist
958
01:15:28,045 --> 01:15:33,592
Mishima spent his teenage years
towards the end of WWII.
959
01:15:33,884 --> 01:15:40,932
Many of Mishima's contemporaries
sacrificed their lives for the Emperor.
960
01:15:41,058 --> 01:15:48,565
He wondered about his role as
a survivor, which became his theme.
961
01:15:48,690 --> 01:15:53,654
In his 30s Mishima made
a tremendous effort to adapt
962
01:15:53,779 --> 01:15:58,742
to the transforming post-war society.
963
01:15:58,867 --> 01:16:05,415
Then in his 40s he started
to think about the Emperor again.
964
01:16:05,540 --> 01:16:10,921
He reconsidered the Emperor's role
and had a paradigm shift.
965
01:16:11,046 --> 01:16:14,341
He used to think that the Emperor
966
01:16:14,466 --> 01:16:18,804
presented an obstruction to reality.
967
01:16:18,929 --> 01:16:23,392
But then he saw that inherent
conflict with reality
968
01:16:23,517 --> 01:16:29,940
could be used as a basis to
criticize reality.
969
01:16:31,108 --> 01:16:35,112
Japanese culture
as symbolized by the Emperor
970
01:16:35,237 --> 01:16:41,118
could be used to criticize
post-war corruption in Japan.
971
01:16:41,201 --> 01:16:45,080
That was Mishima's new viewpoint
in his 40s.
972
01:16:45,205 --> 01:16:52,170
That's why he told the students to
consider what the Emperor stands for,
973
01:16:52,254 --> 01:16:55,882
before criticizing reality.
974
01:16:57,092 --> 01:16:58,135
Eiji Oguma
Sociologist
975
01:16:58,260 --> 01:17:03,140
The student activists could
only laugh in reaction.
976
01:17:03,223 --> 01:17:05,517
Why was that?
977
01:17:05,809 --> 01:17:11,064
It was so abrupt that
they didn't even feel disturbed.
978
01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:16,903
Laughing released their tension
as they didn't know how to respond.
979
01:17:17,029 --> 01:17:19,531
I think that's how it was.
980
01:17:21,575 --> 01:17:24,286
The mortal Emperor
981
01:17:24,411 --> 01:17:29,249
is just a political symbol
in his role now.
982
01:17:29,374 --> 01:17:31,293
Your point is...?
983
01:17:31,418 --> 01:17:34,379
So I want Emperors to
984
01:17:34,504 --> 01:17:38,550
restore the divine roots
of the past.
985
01:17:38,675 --> 01:17:42,304
I want to restore how it was
back then.
986
01:17:42,429 --> 01:17:45,849
And you want to be at one
with that ethos?
987
01:17:45,974 --> 01:17:46,725
Yes.
988
01:17:46,850 --> 01:17:51,355
That's onanistic,
of image and the self.
989
01:17:51,688 --> 01:17:54,441
You'd be defenseless against objects.
990
01:17:54,650 --> 01:17:58,320
Let me tell you about
Japanese culture
991
01:17:58,403 --> 01:18:02,407
You can't transcend being Japanese.
992
01:18:02,532 --> 01:18:04,451
- That's OK.
- Is it?
993
01:18:04,576 --> 01:18:09,623
I am Japanese. I was born that way
and I'll die that way.
994
01:18:09,748 --> 01:18:12,334
I don't want to go beyond that.
995
01:18:12,876 --> 01:18:13,877
I don't.
996
01:18:15,045 --> 01:18:18,382
- You might pity me for that
- I do.
997
01:18:18,507 --> 01:18:20,550
- As a Japanese
- It's fantasy.
998
01:18:20,717 --> 01:18:23,720
I don't want to be anything
besides Japanese.
999
01:18:23,887 --> 01:18:28,767
So where is this object
known as Japanese?
1000
01:18:29,017 --> 01:18:31,436
Go abroad and you'll find it.
1001
01:18:31,561 --> 01:18:37,317
If you're fluent in English,
you forget that you're Japanese.
1002
01:18:37,442 --> 01:18:40,028
You see a reflection of a man
1003
01:18:40,153 --> 01:18:43,824
in a shop window
with a long torso and a flat nose.
1004
01:18:43,949 --> 01:18:46,952
There's a Japanese...it's me!
1005
01:18:47,577 --> 01:18:49,496
Every time I go abroad
1006
01:18:49,663 --> 01:18:53,875
But that's impossible
unless you're an object.
1007
01:18:54,001 --> 01:18:56,128
To escape your nationality?
1008
01:18:56,253 --> 01:18:59,214
You don't have nationality.
1009
01:19:00,215 --> 01:19:04,845
In that case, you are free
which I admire.
1010
01:19:04,970 --> 01:19:09,182
But I can't escape my nationality
as Japanese.
1011
01:19:09,308 --> 01:19:11,268
I think it's my fate.
1012
01:19:11,393 --> 01:19:15,022
You can't escape
what you're related to.
1013
01:19:15,314 --> 01:19:17,149
Nor history.
1014
01:19:17,274 --> 01:19:21,028
- No, I'd rather
- Stay in history?
1015
01:19:21,153 --> 01:19:23,280
I find it delightful.
1016
01:19:24,573 --> 01:19:26,742
- In a fantasy?
- Yes.
1017
01:19:27,075 --> 01:19:30,621
You take action only after
you kill someone.
1018
01:19:30,746 --> 01:19:33,582
- But maybe you won't.
- I agree.
1019
01:19:33,707 --> 01:19:36,627
I've come to have that mentality.
1020
01:19:37,961 --> 01:19:40,297
I'm leaving. I'm bored.
1021
01:19:41,590 --> 01:19:44,051
Sorry. See you.
1022
01:19:44,551 --> 01:19:49,181
Let's discuss perception further.
1023
01:19:49,306 --> 01:19:54,603
Mr. Mishima said beauty
goes beyond time and space
1024
01:19:55,020 --> 01:19:56,939
Tatsuru Uchida
Professor emeritus at Kobe College
1025
01:19:57,064 --> 01:20:01,360
He was very earnest about
persuading those 1,000 students.
1026
01:20:01,485 --> 01:20:05,906
Mishima remained
very fair to the students.
1027
01:20:06,031 --> 01:20:11,328
He never tried to corner
them or trick them with rhetoric
1028
01:20:11,453 --> 01:20:14,247
or point out their contradictions.
1029
01:20:14,331 --> 01:20:17,668
That can't be underrated.
1030
01:20:21,797 --> 01:20:25,050
Mishima and young people
1031
01:20:25,175 --> 01:20:30,097
Mishima sought out young people's
company around this time.
1032
01:20:31,014 --> 01:20:34,184
He attended debates at universities.
1033
01:20:35,978 --> 01:20:42,150
And he trained, interacted and ate
with the Shield Society.
1034
01:20:42,901 --> 01:20:45,279
Yutaka Shinohara
Former Shield Society member
1035
01:20:45,404 --> 01:20:48,240
He threw himself into whatever he did.
1036
01:20:50,909 --> 01:20:55,622
We were around 20 whereas
he was in his 40s.
1037
01:20:55,747 --> 01:20:59,001
We had more stamina than him but
1038
01:20:59,710 --> 01:21:04,548
he trained as hard as us
no matter how intense it was.
1039
01:21:05,132 --> 01:21:07,926
Often he did better than
any of us young members.
1040
01:21:08,135 --> 01:21:10,262
Hara Mishima Shinohara Miyazawa
1041
01:21:10,470 --> 01:21:16,476
He never went easy on himself.
We were drawn to his integrity.
1042
01:21:19,021 --> 01:21:20,897
Yukitomo Miyazawa
Former Shield Society member
1043
01:21:21,023 --> 01:21:22,774
Let me explain
my impression of Mr. Mishima.
1044
01:21:22,899 --> 01:21:28,947
I'd heard that
he disliked young people.
1045
01:21:29,072 --> 01:21:34,620
But then I learned that
wasn't true at all.
1046
01:21:34,745 --> 01:21:41,251
It was impressionable young
people that he didn't like.
1047
01:21:43,045 --> 01:21:47,341
Those who were susceptible
to trends.
1048
01:21:48,008 --> 01:21:50,260
Followers.
1049
01:21:51,136 --> 01:21:55,682
He didn't like young people
without personal awareness.
1050
01:21:59,353 --> 01:22:02,481
Shiine, Mishima's editor for
Heibon Punch
1051
01:22:02,606 --> 01:22:06,151
mocked Mishima's swordsmanship
in an article.
1052
01:22:06,568 --> 01:22:09,821
Mishima's response surprised him.
1053
01:22:10,656 --> 01:22:12,199
Yamato Shiine
1054
01:22:12,324 --> 01:22:16,036
I wrote that he was
only as good as the 1st dan.
1055
01:22:16,161 --> 01:22:19,748
That his 4th dan ranking was
just honorary.
1056
01:22:19,915 --> 01:22:24,169
The moment the magazine was out
he phoned me.
1057
01:22:25,212 --> 01:22:30,509
With no mention of my article,
he invited me to kendo practice.
1058
01:22:30,634 --> 01:22:36,515
I said OK and he offered to
be my kendo mentor.
1059
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:41,770
So we practiced at Himonya dojo
for 150 minutes
1060
01:22:42,062 --> 01:22:47,276
every Sunday for 2 years.
1061
01:22:48,068 --> 01:22:49,528
Akihiro Hara
Former Shield Society member
1062
01:22:49,695 --> 01:22:53,615
We'd go to the dojo at
Itabashi Police Department.
1063
01:22:54,491 --> 01:22:56,118
To practice.
1064
01:22:56,243 --> 01:23:01,581
After every practice
we went to a sushi restaurant
1065
01:23:01,790 --> 01:23:05,460
in front of the police station.
1066
01:23:06,128 --> 01:23:11,466
I was a university student so
it was a luxury
1067
01:23:11,675 --> 01:23:15,887
that I couldn't normally afford.
1068
01:23:16,013 --> 01:23:17,597
Big fatty tuna...
1069
01:23:19,766 --> 01:23:20,976
on rice.
1070
01:23:21,602 --> 01:23:23,729
A lot of it!
1071
01:23:24,938 --> 01:23:28,734
I'd never had anything so delicious.
1072
01:23:28,859 --> 01:23:33,864
He treated us
after every practice.
1073
01:23:34,406 --> 01:23:36,325
Yukitomo Miyazawa
Former Shield Society member
1074
01:23:36,450 --> 01:23:39,036
He said that
we were inexperienced with women
1075
01:23:39,161 --> 01:23:42,706
so we met him at
a designated place.
1076
01:23:42,831 --> 01:23:48,337
We wondered what it was...
Then we arrived to find
1077
01:23:48,712 --> 01:23:54,593
that he'd invited many
stewardesses to join us!
1078
01:23:54,718 --> 01:23:56,845
We had no uniforms then...
1079
01:23:59,097 --> 01:24:01,642
He stayed with us all night.
1080
01:24:04,436 --> 01:24:09,107
Sometimes he showed
a strict side.
1081
01:24:10,442 --> 01:24:13,070
Yutaka Shinohara
Former Shield Society member
1082
01:24:13,195 --> 01:24:16,073
There was a guy who wrapped
his torso with a cloth
1083
01:24:16,365 --> 01:24:21,745
and died after stabbing himself
in the heart.
1084
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:27,876
He was my schoolmate's friend.
So I told the story
1085
01:24:28,001 --> 01:24:30,337
to Mr. Mishima.
1086
01:24:30,712 --> 01:24:34,424
He asked me
why he killed himself.
1087
01:24:34,675 --> 01:24:39,596
I told him maybe because
he had a nervous breakdown.
1088
01:24:42,474 --> 01:24:44,059
That enraged him.
1089
01:24:48,438 --> 01:24:53,902
"That's what everyone says when
they commit suicide!"
1090
01:24:57,698 --> 01:25:00,784
"It's never that easy!" he shouted.
1091
01:25:03,287 --> 01:25:05,914
He was red with anger.
1092
01:25:08,250 --> 01:25:10,711
Jakucho Setouchi was Mishima's friend
1093
01:25:10,836 --> 01:25:14,381
I think he was very fond of
young people.
1094
01:25:14,548 --> 01:25:17,843
He was gentle.
The way he looked at them...
1095
01:25:17,968 --> 01:25:23,724
He listened to them carefully
and responded earnestly.
1096
01:25:23,890 --> 01:25:26,351
He was a gentle soul.
1097
01:25:30,230 --> 01:25:34,234
Mishima talked about
something unexpected.
1098
01:25:34,818 --> 01:25:38,447
At the risk of being mocked by you
1099
01:25:38,572 --> 01:25:41,575
please hear me out.
1100
01:25:41,992 --> 01:25:45,037
When I was young the war started.
1101
01:25:45,162 --> 01:25:47,289
His memory of the Emperor
1102
01:25:47,414 --> 01:25:51,501
I saw the Emperor sit
perfectly still for 3 hours on a stage.
1103
01:25:51,627 --> 01:25:55,797
It was at my graduation.
He was like a statue.
1104
01:25:55,922 --> 01:25:59,009
And he gave me a silver watch.
1105
01:26:01,136 --> 01:26:05,807
When Mishima graduated from
Gakushuin as a valedictorian
1106
01:26:06,099 --> 01:26:09,853
he received a silver watch
from the Emperor.
1107
01:26:10,771 --> 01:26:13,273
So I feel a connection.
1108
01:26:13,398 --> 01:26:20,072
I didn't want to tell you this
but that's my personal history.
1109
01:26:20,238 --> 01:26:23,033
I can't deny its impact.
1110
01:26:23,158 --> 01:26:26,578
The Emperor was so regal.
1111
01:26:26,870 --> 01:26:33,210
Mishima was emotionally ambivalent
about the Showa Emperor.
1112
01:26:33,710 --> 01:26:38,799
In the debate and
in The Voices of the Heroic Dead
1113
01:26:38,924 --> 01:26:45,222
he had critical things to
say about the Emperor.
1114
01:26:45,472 --> 01:26:47,891
The Voices of the Heroic Dead (1966)
Soldier spirits put a curse on the Emperor
1115
01:26:48,308 --> 01:26:49,893
Keiichiro Hirano Novelist
1116
01:26:50,018 --> 01:26:52,187
On the other hand
he repeatedly talked about
1117
01:26:52,312 --> 01:26:55,857
how the Emperor was absolutely still
1118
01:26:55,983 --> 01:27:01,071
at Mishima's school
and how impressive it was.
1119
01:27:01,238 --> 01:27:05,784
His ambivalence makes it hard
to relate to his story.
1120
01:27:05,867 --> 01:27:12,582
But when Mishima was a boy,
the Emperor did have an impact on him.
1121
01:27:12,749 --> 01:27:18,588
That impression stayed with him
all those years.
1122
01:27:20,090 --> 01:27:23,302
Then Kosaka struck back.
1123
01:27:25,178 --> 01:27:30,475
He said that if everyone
shared the concept of "Emperor"
1124
01:27:30,726 --> 01:27:34,730
then the concept wouldn't
need a name.
1125
01:27:36,273 --> 01:27:39,359
Emperor as a concept
My logic is consistent so
1126
01:27:39,901 --> 01:27:42,487
I demand an answer.
1127
01:27:44,948 --> 01:27:48,160
I recognize that you're being logical
1128
01:27:48,285 --> 01:27:51,580
but I follow persistence,
not logic.
1129
01:27:51,705 --> 01:27:54,082
I've come this far so...
1130
01:27:56,251 --> 01:27:58,629
I won't budge.
1131
01:27:58,754 --> 01:28:02,382
You didn't defeat me with logic.
1132
01:28:02,507 --> 01:28:05,636
I kept saying "Emperor" and
1133
01:28:05,761 --> 01:28:09,431
if you'd said "Emperor"
I'd have joined you.
1134
01:28:09,556 --> 01:28:15,020
But you didn't, so I have to keep
saying "fight to death."
1135
01:28:17,731 --> 01:28:19,816
Tatsuru Uchida
Professor emeritus at Kobe College
1136
01:28:19,983 --> 01:28:23,737
Mishima knew that their political
differences weren't the issue.
1137
01:28:23,904 --> 01:28:27,199
The Zenkyoto movement
1138
01:28:27,324 --> 01:28:32,829
was less left-wing than the
Communist and Socialist Parties.
1139
01:28:34,039 --> 01:28:37,709
So it wasn't really about
"right" or "left."
1140
01:28:37,793 --> 01:28:41,880
Their activism in 1968 and 1969
was an extension
1141
01:28:42,005 --> 01:28:46,635
of protests against
Japan's Security Treaty with US.
1142
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:49,846
It was anti-US patriotism.
1143
01:28:50,514 --> 01:28:54,351
Mishima was an insightful man
1144
01:28:54,476 --> 01:28:59,523
so he knew that the student activists
were nationalists.
1145
01:28:59,648 --> 01:29:01,817
They had that in common.
1146
01:29:02,276 --> 01:29:04,569
Masahiko Akuta
Former Zenkyoto member
1147
01:29:04,695 --> 01:29:06,989
I guess it was never about
who was left or right-wing.
1148
01:29:07,114 --> 01:29:12,995
Mishima was upset because the
right-wingers turned to America.
1149
01:29:13,412 --> 01:29:17,916
He considered joining
Zenkyoto because
1150
01:29:18,041 --> 01:29:20,627
we both wanted independence.
1151
01:29:21,295 --> 01:29:26,383
But on the ridiculous condition that
we accept his Emperor.
1152
01:29:26,508 --> 01:29:31,847
If it wasn't about being right or left
who was your mutual enemy?
1153
01:29:32,681 --> 01:29:33,890
It was...
1154
01:29:35,559 --> 01:29:38,312
the ambiguous and obscene Japan.
1155
01:29:47,029 --> 01:29:50,282
They thought they were
mortal enemies
1156
01:29:50,490 --> 01:29:53,493
but they were
fighting a mutual enemy.
1157
01:29:55,996 --> 01:30:01,710
Final Chapter
Passion
1158
01:30:04,087 --> 01:30:08,967
After discussing various topics
the debate was coming to an end.
1159
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:15,349
Let's conclude the debate.
We'll ask Mr. Mishima his thoughts
1160
01:30:15,474 --> 01:30:17,851
and wrap up today's debate.
1161
01:30:17,976 --> 01:30:19,353
And then
1162
01:30:20,270 --> 01:30:24,691
I'd like to ask
a personal favor, Mr. Mishima.
1163
01:30:24,816 --> 01:30:27,277
I want you to join our cause.
1164
01:30:27,402 --> 01:30:30,280
Remember what you told us.
1165
01:30:30,405 --> 01:30:36,662
If we'd responded to you
and said "Emperor" you'd join us.
1166
01:30:38,580 --> 01:30:40,582
He continued.
1167
01:30:42,542 --> 01:30:47,464
He said that he'd mentioned
"Emperor" in the debate
1168
01:30:48,131 --> 01:30:51,093
so if Mishima was to keep his word
1169
01:30:51,510 --> 01:30:54,304
he should join Zenkyoto
and fight together.
1170
01:30:58,058 --> 01:31:02,854
What you've said has
impressed me deeply.
1171
01:31:02,980 --> 01:31:08,860
In terms of deconstructing
established concepts
1172
01:31:08,986 --> 01:31:13,991
I've been a part of it for a long time
1173
01:31:14,116 --> 01:31:17,619
with my literature.
1174
01:31:17,744 --> 01:31:24,209
And now you treat me as an
embodiment of established concepts.
1175
01:31:24,376 --> 01:31:28,547
That makes me feel...
1176
01:31:28,672 --> 01:31:32,759
Happy? No, but whatever it is
I feel it.
1177
01:31:34,636 --> 01:31:40,017
In regard to you mentioning
the word "Emperor"
1178
01:31:40,142 --> 01:31:43,604
it shows the spiritual effect of words.
1179
01:31:43,729 --> 01:31:47,899
For you, saying the word "Emperor"
aloud was despicable
1180
01:31:48,066 --> 01:31:52,029
but during the 2-hour long debate
1181
01:31:52,195 --> 01:31:56,950
many of you repeated "Emperor,"
whatever the intention.
1182
01:31:57,075 --> 01:32:02,205
My word flew in the hall with wings
and invited your words.
1183
01:32:02,331 --> 01:32:06,835
I don't know how the spirit
of my word resonated with you
1184
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:11,965
but I leave now with
the resonance of the word.
1185
01:32:12,090 --> 01:32:15,177
It's a question unanswered.
1186
01:32:15,302 --> 01:32:20,432
I believe in your passion,
if nothing else.
1187
01:32:20,557 --> 01:32:24,937
I believe in it and
I want you to understand that.
1188
01:32:27,105 --> 01:32:29,775
Will you join our cause?
1189
01:32:30,108 --> 01:32:31,860
Will you?
1190
01:32:33,528 --> 01:32:37,115
That question is mere sophistry.
1191
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:41,286
I'm very tempted but I refuse to join you.
1192
01:32:43,622 --> 01:32:45,248
That concludes it.
1193
01:32:53,674 --> 01:32:56,969
Mishima leaving Lecture Hall 900
1194
01:32:57,135 --> 01:33:00,889
"Meeting
Zenkyoto members"
1195
01:33:01,014 --> 01:33:05,143
"was pleasurable," Mishima wrote
in an article.
1196
01:33:06,186 --> 01:33:12,693
He directly took on
the 1,000 student activists.
1197
01:33:13,777 --> 01:33:17,155
Daisaburo Hashizume
Former Zenkyoto member
1198
01:33:17,281 --> 01:33:24,121
This big name in the literary world
called Yukio Mishima came to visit us.
1199
01:33:24,413 --> 01:33:29,167
He came to our turf to
have a debate with us.
1200
01:33:29,501 --> 01:33:34,464
To see who'd win the argument
or be persuaded.
1201
01:33:34,589 --> 01:33:37,509
And he did it very seriously.
1202
01:33:38,343 --> 01:33:43,932
We had different opinions
but he was very respectful.
1203
01:33:44,141 --> 01:33:48,937
I'm sure everyone felt that
it was a big present.
1204
01:33:49,688 --> 01:33:51,940
Yukitomo Miyazawa
Former Shield Society member
1205
01:33:52,316 --> 01:33:54,151
He said that
it was exciting.
1206
01:33:56,403 --> 01:34:01,533
He kept saying that.
He sounded very satisfied.
1207
01:34:02,868 --> 01:34:04,536
Tatsuru Uchida
Professor emeritus at Kobe College
1208
01:34:04,786 --> 01:34:06,163
He said he believed in their passion.
1209
01:34:06,330 --> 01:34:09,958
He had a big expectation
of the students.
1210
01:34:10,083 --> 01:34:14,463
He wanted them to come closer
to his point of view.
1211
01:34:14,588 --> 01:34:19,509
He invited them in,
in his provocative way.
1212
01:34:19,635 --> 01:34:23,680
Like he confessed his love to them.
1213
01:34:24,139 --> 01:34:25,849
Keiichiro Hirano Novelist
1214
01:34:25,974 --> 01:34:29,561
Ultimately we need words
to change society.
1215
01:34:30,187 --> 01:34:34,733
Only words can modify
the system of a society.
1216
01:34:34,858 --> 01:34:39,196
The debaters explored
the meaning of words...
1217
01:34:39,863 --> 01:34:45,744
That was the most significant
aspect of the debate.
1218
01:34:45,869 --> 01:34:50,999
It's remarkable that they didn't
stick to one side of the argument
1219
01:34:51,124 --> 01:34:54,503
or antagonize their opponent.
1220
01:34:54,670 --> 01:34:59,716
They acknowledged
when their opponent had a point.
1221
01:34:59,883 --> 01:35:04,596
They admitted when
they didn't quite get it.
1222
01:35:07,265 --> 01:35:11,311
With objectivity
we can help each other
1223
01:35:12,020 --> 01:35:15,732
present our thoughts and ideas.
1224
01:35:16,275 --> 01:35:18,944
Masahiko Akuta
Former Zenkyoto member
1225
01:35:19,152 --> 01:35:24,074
I was an artist more than a student.
And I was proud to be an artist.
1226
01:35:25,325 --> 01:35:26,868
And him...
1227
01:35:28,662 --> 01:35:34,293
He earned his place in this world,
no matter how vulgar it is.
1228
01:35:34,876 --> 01:35:37,087
With a pencil.
1229
01:35:38,547 --> 01:35:40,841
And yet...
1230
01:35:41,925 --> 01:35:48,015
He empathized with our ideals
despite our differences.
1231
01:35:52,185 --> 01:35:56,315
A conversation requires respect.
1232
01:35:57,024 --> 01:36:00,694
You can't engage with
someone you hate.
1233
01:36:00,986 --> 01:36:07,159
Words were more powerful in
connecting people in those days.
1234
01:36:07,284 --> 01:36:09,244
- Like media?
- Yes.
1235
01:36:15,834 --> 01:36:20,839
Kimura, the MC, called Mishima
a while after the debate.
1236
01:36:21,798 --> 01:36:25,385
And he received
an unexpected proposition.
1237
01:36:25,510 --> 01:36:29,848
He asked me to join
the Shield Society.
1238
01:36:31,433 --> 01:36:37,522
And I didn't answer
in a straightforward manner.
1239
01:36:37,648 --> 01:36:43,403
I was making excuses about
our different political views.
1240
01:36:43,528 --> 01:36:48,367
But I didn't just say "No."
1241
01:36:48,700 --> 01:36:53,747
I remember I couldn't be honest.
I was evasive.
1242
01:36:53,830 --> 01:36:58,877
And Mr. Mishima was sharp!
He asked me, "Where are you?"
1243
01:37:00,921 --> 01:37:05,008
He guessed that I was
with someone.
1244
01:37:05,258 --> 01:37:08,887
I was with the woman
I would marry.
1245
01:37:09,096 --> 01:37:14,685
So I told him that I was
calling from my girlfriend's place.
1246
01:37:16,478 --> 01:37:21,275
He told me to hand her the phone
and they spoke for 5 minutes.
1247
01:37:22,693 --> 01:37:26,863
My wife didn't tell me
what they talked about.
1248
01:37:27,531 --> 01:37:31,326
Only recently, after nearly
50 years of marriage
1249
01:37:31,702 --> 01:37:35,247
she remembered what Mishima told her.
1250
01:37:39,334 --> 01:37:42,212
He asked her if she loved me.
1251
01:37:42,587 --> 01:37:45,382
And she answered that she did.
1252
01:37:45,674 --> 01:37:50,220
She never told me that!
I had to wait 50 years.
1253
01:37:55,851 --> 01:38:00,397
November 25, 1970
One and a half years after the debate
1254
01:38:01,023 --> 01:38:03,942
Listen to me!
1255
01:38:04,067 --> 01:38:08,905
Mishima took the commanding general
hostage at Ichigaya Camp
1256
01:38:09,156 --> 01:38:12,451
to persuade the 1,000 SDF soldiers
1257
01:38:13,118 --> 01:38:19,499
to join his cause in a coup
and revise the Constitution.
1258
01:38:22,544 --> 01:38:27,883
The soldiers ignored his appeal.
1259
01:38:30,260 --> 01:38:35,140
Mishima hailed the Emperor
and committed ritual suicide.
1260
01:38:37,935 --> 01:38:44,816
A Shield member who'd guarded him
at the debate also killed himself.
1261
01:38:44,942 --> 01:38:47,110
Morita was his name.
1262
01:38:47,736 --> 01:38:53,241
Masakatsu Morita
Shield Society member
1263
01:38:53,367 --> 01:38:57,621
The two of them committed suicide.
1264
01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:00,749
- Where?
- In the Commandant's office.
1265
01:39:01,833 --> 01:39:04,711
They both killed themselves.
1266
01:39:04,836 --> 01:39:06,129
How?
1267
01:39:06,463 --> 01:39:09,341
Did they slash their stomachs?
1268
01:39:16,473 --> 01:39:17,641
Yutaka Shinohara
Former Shield Society member
1269
01:39:17,766 --> 01:39:19,768
No one...
1270
01:39:21,228 --> 01:39:26,316
No one thought that would happen
at that time.
1271
01:39:30,612 --> 01:39:32,990
Akihiro Hara
Former Shield Society member
1272
01:39:33,699 --> 01:39:38,245
I was listening to the radio when they
went to Ichigaya Camp to carry it out.
1273
01:39:38,370 --> 01:39:40,080
I was like, "What?"
1274
01:39:40,664 --> 01:39:45,711
I was so shocked I returned
to Tokyo immediately.
1275
01:39:46,169 --> 01:39:48,463
Osamu Kimura
Former Zenkyoto member
1276
01:39:48,588 --> 01:39:50,841
He often said that he'd die
when the time came.
1277
01:39:51,675 --> 01:39:53,093
So...
1278
01:40:00,559 --> 01:40:04,896
I was told by someone that
I was pale...
1279
01:40:05,022 --> 01:40:07,149
like I'd seen a ghost.
1280
01:40:08,275 --> 01:40:10,235
Jakucho Setouchi
Novelist/Buddhist monk
1281
01:40:10,527 --> 01:40:14,573
I was shocked and I thought
what a waste of talent...
1282
01:40:16,366 --> 01:40:18,577
I cried.
1283
01:40:19,036 --> 01:40:21,204
Yamato Shiine
Mishima's editor
1284
01:40:21,538 --> 01:40:25,667
What can I say...
I wasn't disappointed or sad.
1285
01:40:25,792 --> 01:40:28,253
All I felt was...
1286
01:40:29,379 --> 01:40:34,968
Emptiness.
That everything had gone...
1287
01:40:35,552 --> 01:40:37,638
Masahiko Akuta
Former Zenkyoto member
1288
01:40:37,763 --> 01:40:40,349
Mishima had a headband on.
I thought he was up to his silly stuff.
1289
01:40:40,557 --> 01:40:43,560
Then he died. I thought, "Good."
1290
01:40:43,685 --> 01:40:44,853
Good?
1291
01:40:45,187 --> 01:40:47,272
His wish had come true!
1292
01:40:48,273 --> 01:40:51,902
That was his finale
and he'd done it right.
1293
01:40:56,907 --> 01:40:59,826
At Lecture Hall 900 on that day
1294
01:41:00,035 --> 01:41:04,456
Mishima actually
prophesied his future.
1295
01:41:04,998 --> 01:41:10,128
If I were to act, it would have to be
illegal as it is for you.
1296
01:41:10,337 --> 01:41:15,842
If I took someone's life in a duel,
it'd be murder.
1297
01:41:15,968 --> 01:41:22,391
In that case I'd kill myself
before I was arrested.
1298
01:41:24,518 --> 01:41:26,561
He killed himself
1299
01:41:27,938 --> 01:41:31,441
in the apolitical mood of 1970
1300
01:41:31,608 --> 01:41:35,821
in the wake of Osaka Expo's success.
1301
01:41:37,823 --> 01:41:41,410
The New Left groups feuded
among themselves
1302
01:41:41,994 --> 01:41:45,998
resulting in
the Asama mountain lodge siege.
1303
01:41:48,583 --> 01:41:52,713
After that, radical activism
lost its momentum
1304
01:41:53,088 --> 01:41:57,009
and the Zenkyoto movement
was defeated.
1305
01:41:58,927 --> 01:42:02,889
How did the members reflect on
their activism?
1306
01:42:05,267 --> 01:42:06,935
Kunio Ogawa Former TBS Reporter
1307
01:42:07,060 --> 01:42:11,982
I wonder that, too. I'd love to ask
your interview subjects.
1308
01:42:12,524 --> 01:42:14,776
Kunio Ogawa
Former TBS Reporter
1309
01:42:15,277 --> 01:42:18,155
What did those revolutionaries
think about the whole thing?
1310
01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:22,284
I'm fascinated to know.
I'd like to ask them.
1311
01:42:23,285 --> 01:42:25,662
Tatsuru Uchida
Professor emeritus at Kobe College
1312
01:42:25,787 --> 01:42:29,541
In taverns in the mid 70s,
young drunk office workers
1313
01:42:29,666 --> 01:42:35,172
would grumble that
they used to be revolutionaries.
1314
01:42:35,297 --> 01:42:38,634
Probably 90% of those eager activists
1315
01:42:38,759 --> 01:42:45,515
grew out of it and got ahead
with a slight sense of guilt.
1316
01:42:45,641 --> 01:42:49,019
I don't know what they were thinking.
1317
01:42:49,311 --> 01:42:52,689
What moral code they followed
1318
01:42:52,814 --> 01:42:57,361
and what they made of their youth
is a mystery to me.
1319
01:42:57,819 --> 01:43:00,697
Some describe it as a "defeat."
1320
01:43:00,864 --> 01:43:03,116
Osamu Kimura
Former Zenkyoto member
1321
01:43:03,867 --> 01:43:10,123
I don't think so, in general
it was just that it dispersed.
1322
01:43:10,874 --> 01:43:12,918
It took me years.
1323
01:43:15,212 --> 01:43:16,838
For a while...
1324
01:43:20,634 --> 01:43:26,223
I kept asking myself,
"What am I doing with my life?"
1325
01:43:44,616 --> 01:43:46,618
Osamu Kimura
Former Zenkyoto member
1326
01:43:46,743 --> 01:43:49,830
Any movement eventually ends
in success or failure.
1327
01:43:50,664 --> 01:43:55,752
It ends but those who participated
in it will go on.
1328
01:43:56,044 --> 01:43:58,130
Society goes on.
1329
01:43:58,297 --> 01:44:04,136
The results of a social movement
might disappoint its participants.
1330
01:44:04,553 --> 01:44:09,474
It might make them feel defeated
or ruin their lives.
1331
01:44:09,641 --> 01:44:14,813
They might look back and
play down its significance.
1332
01:44:14,938 --> 01:44:21,695
Some might find other things
to pursue in their lives.
1333
01:44:21,903 --> 01:44:25,657
There's not one way
to deal with its results but
1334
01:44:26,491 --> 01:44:29,369
they should remember what happened.
1335
01:44:31,330 --> 01:44:35,250
How can you remember it
if you're dead?
1336
01:44:36,251 --> 01:44:41,340
It didn't end with Zenkyoto members
killing themselves.
1337
01:44:41,965 --> 01:44:45,552
If a battle ends in
inevitable loss
1338
01:44:45,719 --> 01:44:50,057
we have to ponder what we'll do
after that.
1339
01:44:50,932 --> 01:44:55,062
I'm dealing with it in my own way.
1340
01:44:56,229 --> 01:44:57,314
Masahiko Akuta
Former Zenkyoto member
1341
01:44:57,481 --> 01:45:00,317
It was generally regarded as a defeat
1342
01:45:00,442 --> 01:45:04,321
Who cares how you regard it
in your country!
1343
01:45:05,364 --> 01:45:07,407
Not in my country.
1344
01:45:08,241 --> 01:45:12,788
I'm living proof.
I exist in my country.
1345
01:45:12,913 --> 01:45:15,791
I don't exist in your country.
1346
01:45:16,333 --> 01:45:18,210
You're proof because
1347
01:45:18,543 --> 01:45:20,212
I'm here, breathing.
1348
01:45:21,296 --> 01:45:25,050
I'm speaking here,
I'm not imitating anyone.
1349
01:45:26,218 --> 01:45:27,260
You see?
1350
01:45:38,480 --> 01:45:42,276
Lecture Hall 900 is still standing.
1351
01:45:43,777 --> 01:45:48,407
On that day the hall was filled with
1352
01:45:49,324 --> 01:45:53,912
Mishima's, the Zenkyoto debaters'
and the 1,000 audience members'
1353
01:45:54,162 --> 01:45:59,126
passion, respect and words.
1354
01:46:02,379 --> 01:46:06,717
How will you confront the world
and choose to live?
1355
01:46:06,842 --> 01:46:12,889
They explored meaning by
exchanging words.
1356
01:46:15,017 --> 01:46:17,477
50 years have passed.
1357
01:46:27,404 --> 01:46:32,034
What would Mishima say to us
if he was here today?
1358
01:46:35,912 --> 01:46:41,043
I believe in your passion,
if nothing else.
1359
01:46:41,209 --> 01:46:45,589
I believe in it and
I want you to understand that.
1360
01:46:49,301 --> 01:46:55,724
Times change but what remains
is a passion to improve.
1361
01:46:57,142 --> 01:46:59,519
All we need is
1362
01:47:00,103 --> 01:47:04,983
passion, respect and words.
1363
01:47:06,485 --> 01:47:13,825
That's the truth we found in
Lecture Hall 900, 50 years later.
1364
01:47:26,046 --> 01:47:32,094
Osamu Kimura became a civil
servant for a Tokyo ward.
1365
01:47:32,219 --> 01:47:38,267
Now retired, he mulls over
the mystery of Mishima's death.
1366
01:47:44,439 --> 01:47:50,404
Shuhei Kosaka became a cram school
lecturer and wrote philosophy books.
1367
01:47:50,529 --> 01:47:56,493
He died at 60 in 2007
from acute heart failure.
1368
01:48:03,292 --> 01:48:09,339
Masahiko Akuta is a director for
Homofictus theatre troupe.
1369
01:48:09,464 --> 01:48:15,512
Multi-talented Akuta still writes,
directs, performs and dances.
1370
01:48:21,810 --> 01:48:34,281
Yukio Mishima died in 1970 at 45.
1371
01:48:40,162 --> 01:48:45,000
The members of the Shield Society
hold a memorial
1372
01:48:45,125 --> 01:48:51,298
for Mishima and Masakatsu Morita
every year on November 25.
1373
01:49:01,558 --> 01:49:04,645
Yukio Mishima
1374
01:49:49,648 --> 01:49:53,610
Development & Produced by Takashi Hirano
1375
01:49:54,653 --> 01:49:58,615
Produced by Mei Takeuchi, Tetsuhiro Tone
1376
01:51:15,025 --> 01:51:20,030
Directed by Keisuke Toyoshima
1377
01:51:24,910 --> 01:51:29,623
c2020 "Mishima: The Last Debate"
Film Partners
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