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1
00:00:05,714 --> 00:00:07,257
You're hurting me.
2
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You're hurting me. You're hurting me.
3
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- What's the matter?
- I can't tell you.
4
00:00:58,517 --> 00:01:01,645
This time, Janet was thrown
right out of the room, onto the stairs.
5
00:01:05,899 --> 00:01:07,693
I saw you banging on the floor, Janet.
6
00:01:08,569 --> 00:01:10,112
I didn't bang.
7
00:01:10,112 --> 00:01:12,155
I saw you bang.
8
00:01:15,284 --> 00:01:17,077
Janet. Can you hear me, Janet?
9
00:01:17,578 --> 00:01:19,621
Janet, can you hear me?
10
00:01:19,621 --> 00:01:21,039
One time when we s--
11
00:01:23,417 --> 00:01:26,086
Why didn't you spit
the water out until I told you?
12
00:01:28,338 --> 00:01:31,717
No, I don't want you
to do anything until I tell you.
13
00:01:57,910 --> 00:02:02,080
Janet. Janet. Janet.
14
00:02:02,831 --> 00:02:06,877
Janet. Can you hear me? Janet?
Can you hear me, Janet?
15
00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:17,489
All right, Janet. Well done.
All right, now, Janet.
16
00:03:17,489 --> 00:03:18,907
There's a good girl.
17
00:03:18,907 --> 00:03:21,410
There's a good girl. All right.
18
00:03:22,119 --> 00:03:24,037
I blamed myself a lot.
19
00:03:27,374 --> 00:03:31,920
The fact that I went into care alone
and Margaret and Bill were still there.
20
00:03:37,092 --> 00:03:40,220
It was my fault
because I was the epicenter.
21
00:03:49,021 --> 00:03:50,063
Why me?
22
00:03:53,901 --> 00:03:58,572
{\an8}Why did it happen to me, our family? Why?
23
00:04:06,288 --> 00:04:10,292
I've never actually done
that many interviews or documentaries.
24
00:04:11,585 --> 00:04:14,963
And I was always very dubious
about doing any of them
25
00:04:14,963 --> 00:04:16,964
'cause it does bring it all back again,
26
00:04:16,964 --> 00:04:21,428
and there's all the emotions
that I've tried to escape all my life.
27
00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:43,951
Yeah, I remember that one.
28
00:04:43,951 --> 00:04:46,453
- The look of terror on Mum's face.
- Yeah, I remember.
29
00:04:56,129 --> 00:04:58,131
- That one.
- Yeah.
30
00:04:58,131 --> 00:05:00,467
When I was pulled out of bed.
31
00:05:01,385 --> 00:05:03,554
And that distressed me
to see you like that.
32
00:05:03,554 --> 00:05:05,264
That distressed me terrible.
33
00:05:20,237 --> 00:05:23,198
Yeah, I remember
being turned off the settee.
34
00:05:24,199 --> 00:05:25,701
Tipped upside down.
35
00:05:27,327 --> 00:05:29,788
- It just turned over. And--
- Yeah.
36
00:05:29,788 --> 00:05:32,124
And she'd run off it,
and then it'd be over on the--
37
00:05:32,124 --> 00:05:33,500
tip up on the floor.
38
00:05:42,009 --> 00:05:46,263
Does feel strange though.
Like going back in time.
39
00:05:47,097 --> 00:05:50,225
Really does. All those years ago.
40
00:05:55,647 --> 00:05:57,065
Looking back now,
41
00:05:58,150 --> 00:06:01,820
something could come into our lives,
into our house.
42
00:06:04,031 --> 00:06:08,035
Could it have been something
that drew energy from me?
43
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,211
June, 1978.
44
00:06:18,003 --> 00:06:21,798
{\an8}Janet has now spent six weeks
in a home run by nuns.
45
00:06:24,009 --> 00:06:26,595
We are redoubling our efforts to help her,
46
00:06:27,638 --> 00:06:30,182
but none of the doctors, psychiatrists,
47
00:06:30,182 --> 00:06:33,060
or psychologists who have
witnessed her altered states
48
00:06:33,060 --> 00:06:35,395
can agree on their diagnosis.
49
00:06:36,730 --> 00:06:39,650
The psychiatrist consulted
by the local doctor
50
00:06:40,234 --> 00:06:44,196
suggested we simply go away
and leave the family alone.
51
00:06:45,739 --> 00:06:48,242
Maurice was a very compassionate man.
52
00:06:48,242 --> 00:06:51,537
And there's no doubt
that he cared about the family.
53
00:06:52,371 --> 00:06:54,623
{\an8}That's important because,
as a psychical researcher,
54
00:06:54,623 --> 00:06:57,125
{\an8}you probably want the phenomena
to go on as long as possible.
55
00:06:57,125 --> 00:06:59,878
You know, this doesn't often happen,
so you're quite keen to--
56
00:06:59,878 --> 00:07:02,798
to sort of get evidence for this.
On the other hand,
57
00:07:03,298 --> 00:07:06,677
{\an8}as a human being, you're dealing--
you realize you're dealing
58
00:07:06,677 --> 00:07:08,929
{\an8}with people who are going
through a very traumatic state.
59
00:07:08,929 --> 00:07:12,266
And so, from that point of view,
you want the phenomena to stop.
60
00:07:17,479 --> 00:07:20,274
I was having these bad nightmares.
61
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,445
Nights used to be so long.
62
00:07:26,613 --> 00:07:31,159
When I look back now,
I don't know how I stayed sane.
63
00:07:35,038 --> 00:07:36,957
I just wanted to run away.
64
00:07:41,670 --> 00:07:44,715
I do remember being concerned about Janet.
65
00:07:45,632 --> 00:07:48,177
Just mentally and physically, emotionally.
66
00:07:50,846 --> 00:07:54,016
{\an8}To be screaming, hysterical,
67
00:07:54,558 --> 00:07:59,062
{\an8}to have that amount of tension,
she needed help.
68
00:08:02,441 --> 00:08:05,194
{\an8}July the 26th, 1978.
69
00:08:05,861 --> 00:08:09,114
We have finally got Janet admitted
to the Maudsley Hospital
70
00:08:09,114 --> 00:08:11,909
under the care of Dr. Peter Fenwick,
71
00:08:11,909 --> 00:08:14,453
head of the neurological department.
72
00:08:18,457 --> 00:08:20,250
Guy Playfair said to me,
73
00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:25,172
{\an8}"We've got this fascinating phenomena
going on at Enfield. A poltergeist.
74
00:08:26,924 --> 00:08:32,179
The girl, Janet, goes into strange,
contorted positions.
75
00:08:34,139 --> 00:08:37,017
And do you think that she has epilepsy?"
76
00:08:37,768 --> 00:08:42,188
And so, I originally thought,
"Well, poltergeists and epilepsy?
77
00:08:42,773 --> 00:08:43,774
Doubt it.
78
00:08:45,776 --> 00:08:47,986
But it's certainly worth
looking at Janet."
79
00:08:56,703 --> 00:08:58,497
I thought I was going home.
80
00:08:59,665 --> 00:09:04,211
So, I was very surprised to be going
to stay in a hospital.
81
00:09:06,547 --> 00:09:09,049
Remember, it's 47 years ago,
82
00:09:09,049 --> 00:09:14,638
but I do have Janet's permission
to talk about her on camera.
83
00:09:16,890 --> 00:09:21,186
I'm a neuropsychiatrist,
which means "neuro" understand the brain--
84
00:09:21,186 --> 00:09:24,273
-"psychiatrist"-- understand behavior.
- If you looking at this...
85
00:09:24,273 --> 00:09:29,903
People who had disorders
of behavior used to be referred to me.
86
00:09:31,697 --> 00:09:34,449
I was also interested in consciousness.
87
00:09:35,117 --> 00:09:38,662
And so, my interests were wider
88
00:09:38,662 --> 00:09:41,039
than just simple reductionist science.
89
00:09:44,209 --> 00:09:45,752
What I was wanting to know is
90
00:09:45,752 --> 00:09:48,839
whether you could
separate poltergeist effects,
91
00:09:48,839 --> 00:09:52,968
epilepsy, and behavioral changes
in the person.
92
00:09:57,681 --> 00:10:02,019
We ran a whole lot of tests
on her to see, particularly,
93
00:10:02,019 --> 00:10:05,189
if there was an organic basis
for her behavior.
94
00:10:09,484 --> 00:10:12,529
They wanted to see what was going on
in me brain.
95
00:10:17,201 --> 00:10:19,119
When you're that young,
you know, you think,
96
00:10:19,119 --> 00:10:22,122
"Psychiatry, what does that really mean?"
You know?
97
00:10:25,250 --> 00:10:27,836
People think, "It's madness.
98
00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:29,963
They've gone into there
because they're mad."
99
00:10:30,589 --> 00:10:32,591
But there's different reasons.
100
00:10:33,592 --> 00:10:37,054
Is it something in the body?
Or is it in the brain?
101
00:10:37,054 --> 00:10:40,265
Or is it something that's happened
from the past?
102
00:10:43,310 --> 00:10:46,230
All of the physical tests
we did were normal.
103
00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:51,318
And so we then wondered
about the behavioral component.
104
00:10:54,112 --> 00:10:56,365
What I did know about poltergeists
105
00:10:56,365 --> 00:10:58,492
at this time was
that they tended to occur,
106
00:10:58,492 --> 00:11:02,913
usually, where there was
a very high tension in the family.
107
00:11:14,591 --> 00:11:18,679
I haven't really listened
to the tapes up until now.
108
00:11:21,723 --> 00:11:26,144
But it's like I'm meant to go back
'cause it's gonna teach me something.
109
00:11:29,398 --> 00:11:31,149
Why do you think it's chosen you?
110
00:11:31,149 --> 00:11:33,110
{\an8}Why do you think it's happening to you?
111
00:11:34,736 --> 00:11:38,782
{\an8}Well, I can't directly answer that,
112
00:11:39,324 --> 00:11:43,287
but there's been a lot of distress
in the house before all this happened.
113
00:11:43,871 --> 00:11:47,457
I think it goes right back
to when her father was here.
114
00:11:48,083 --> 00:11:49,543
And I mean,
he wouldn't let those kids play.
115
00:11:49,543 --> 00:11:50,794
He wouldn't let them have any toys out.
116
00:11:50,794 --> 00:11:53,005
If there was a row outside,
he used to bring them in.
117
00:11:54,256 --> 00:11:57,259
He's been gone two years this month--
the 14th of this month.
118
00:11:58,635 --> 00:12:01,013
I was in a very low state,
119
00:12:01,513 --> 00:12:05,017
and I did feel very depressed
after Mr. Hodgson went.
120
00:12:05,017 --> 00:12:08,770
It all sort of bounded back on me,
all the distress.
121
00:12:08,770 --> 00:12:13,859
I suddenly realized how we'd been living
and how hard it had been.
122
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:17,029
And it all built up, I suppose.
123
00:12:18,906 --> 00:12:21,533
I think, between them,
they've bottled up such a lot.
124
00:12:23,118 --> 00:12:24,828
That might have had something
to do with it.
125
00:12:25,454 --> 00:12:27,706
That's the only reason I can think of.
126
00:12:31,418 --> 00:12:32,794
Looking back now,
127
00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:37,799
there was a lot
of stress and tension in the family.
128
00:12:39,384 --> 00:12:42,971
The upset of Johnny going away to school.
129
00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:45,724
Mum and Dad had divorced.
130
00:12:49,061 --> 00:12:51,313
I remember before I was ten,
131
00:12:52,105 --> 00:12:55,359
{\an8}my parents would regularly have rows.
132
00:12:58,070 --> 00:13:01,573
And one day,
I don't know what my mum done--
133
00:13:01,573 --> 00:13:03,659
She went to open the front door,
134
00:13:03,659 --> 00:13:05,744
and he shut her arm in it.
135
00:13:05,744 --> 00:13:07,955
I remember this very well.
136
00:13:08,705 --> 00:13:11,917
And I remember things
getting a bit overheated,
137
00:13:11,917 --> 00:13:14,711
and they were arguing
and shouting at each other.
138
00:13:16,421 --> 00:13:19,508
And I remember, my father sat me down,
139
00:13:19,508 --> 00:13:24,179
and he said to me,
"I won't be living here anymore, you know.
140
00:13:24,888 --> 00:13:27,140
We're getting divorced, Mum and I."
141
00:13:29,935 --> 00:13:32,271
Our lives changed then.
142
00:13:33,105 --> 00:13:35,732
And then I don't remember
much more childhood.
143
00:13:39,528 --> 00:13:45,033
It did really affect me.
I mean, my dad he was hotheaded.
144
00:13:45,617 --> 00:13:48,161
He had no patience.
145
00:13:50,372 --> 00:13:52,499
But then I cried when he left.
146
00:13:56,461 --> 00:14:01,216
It was like there was an absence.
Something was missing.
147
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,222
Did hit me hard, actually. It did. Yeah.
148
00:14:07,931 --> 00:14:09,391
That's what I'm saying, right?
149
00:14:09,391 --> 00:14:10,893
You go in the small bed, Margaret.
150
00:14:10,893 --> 00:14:12,269
Trust you to say that.
151
00:14:12,269 --> 00:14:14,646
There is a great deal
of emotional stress in the family.
152
00:14:14,646 --> 00:14:16,815
...you come back
from the shops this afternoon.
153
00:14:16,815 --> 00:14:21,278
But how is stress capable
of physically affecting its surroundings?
154
00:14:22,946 --> 00:14:25,032
How does all that fit into the picture?
155
00:14:27,451 --> 00:14:29,786
The chair,
which was standing by Janet's bed.
156
00:14:29,786 --> 00:14:31,205
Mum, he's tricking me.
157
00:14:31,205 --> 00:14:33,207
Christ! It's the ghost!
158
00:14:33,207 --> 00:14:35,667
And there was a chest of drawers
moving towards the door.
159
00:14:35,667 --> 00:14:37,336
Bash the window!
160
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,254
What's happened?
161
00:14:39,254 --> 00:14:41,131
Now the chair gone over.
162
00:14:41,131 --> 00:14:43,592
It just tipped over the settee
in front of us.
163
00:14:50,224 --> 00:14:53,018
I've never used to like
going upstairs on me own.
164
00:14:54,394 --> 00:14:57,898
It was like there was something there.
165
00:15:00,317 --> 00:15:03,445
It was a feeling like it was behind me.
166
00:15:10,077 --> 00:15:13,622
Now, tell me, what are you doing here,
and why are you here?
167
00:15:15,541 --> 00:15:18,126
{\an8}Shall I tell you really who I am?
168
00:15:20,587 --> 00:15:22,089
Really?
169
00:15:24,424 --> 00:15:26,802
Some people have to see it to believe it.
170
00:15:26,802 --> 00:15:31,807
But once you've experienced it,
you know that it's real.
171
00:15:39,231 --> 00:15:42,526
27th, 1978, in the Maudsley Hospital.
172
00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:46,613
Well, Janet, come over here
and stick your mouth near the microphone
173
00:15:46,613 --> 00:15:47,865
- so we can hear you.
- Yeah.
174
00:15:47,865 --> 00:15:48,907
That's all right.
175
00:15:48,907 --> 00:15:50,659
Tell me--
You're saying when you're on your own,
176
00:15:50,659 --> 00:15:52,077
you're not-- you're not--
177
00:15:53,161 --> 00:15:54,329
Nothing happens when you're on your own.
178
00:15:54,329 --> 00:15:56,164
I can guarantee that nothing
will happen now.
179
00:15:56,164 --> 00:15:58,166
- Really?
- Just got that feeling.
180
00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:02,754
But when you're with Margaret
and your mum,
181
00:16:02,754 --> 00:16:06,008
- you feel this sort of force building up?
- Builds up, yeah.
182
00:16:06,008 --> 00:16:07,926
Does it? What does it feel like? I mean--
183
00:16:07,926 --> 00:16:10,888
Yeah, and in the end mum winds up
by shouting at me over it,
184
00:16:10,888 --> 00:16:12,431
'cause it's happening round me.
185
00:16:12,431 --> 00:16:14,516
That's why I say the energy comes to me.
186
00:16:14,933 --> 00:16:16,435
It all builds up around me.
187
00:16:17,227 --> 00:16:19,313
I'd like to sleep in the little room
on me own, you know what I mean?
188
00:16:19,313 --> 00:16:21,148
You'd like to sleep on your own
from now on?
189
00:16:21,148 --> 00:16:22,191
Yeah.
190
00:16:22,191 --> 00:16:24,401
- What, on your own, without anybody?
- Yeah.
191
00:16:24,401 --> 00:16:25,986
I could decorate me own bedroom
and everything.
192
00:16:25,986 --> 00:16:27,863
Yes. You should do that.
That's very important actually.
193
00:16:27,863 --> 00:16:29,281
You ought to do that as soon
as you get home.
194
00:16:29,281 --> 00:16:32,326
- Yeah. I was gonna get a paintbrush--
- Just get a brush and go...
195
00:16:32,993 --> 00:16:36,538
I've got a radio.
That'll keep me company of a night.
196
00:16:36,538 --> 00:16:38,916
- Yeah.
- What, on your own, without anybody?
197
00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:42,336
Strange, sort of,
listening to me at that age.
198
00:16:43,003 --> 00:16:47,132
I seem quite determined. I think, "Wow.
199
00:16:47,132 --> 00:16:48,675
Really? Was this me?"
200
00:16:50,302 --> 00:16:52,012
Think you'll forget all
about your dad soon?
201
00:16:52,012 --> 00:16:54,765
- You know, when you grow up and--
- He's been gone two years now.
202
00:16:54,765 --> 00:16:56,808
You'll have lots of boyfriends
before long.
203
00:16:56,808 --> 00:16:58,310
You won't remember him.
204
00:17:00,103 --> 00:17:02,731
But we gotta stop this damn thing,
you know, now.
205
00:17:04,608 --> 00:17:07,319
- It's not doing you any good.
- I know. That's what Mum said.
206
00:17:11,031 --> 00:17:13,659
You know,
you're gonna be quite famous one day.
207
00:17:23,210 --> 00:17:26,839
There's no doubt about Janet's relief
in getting away from the family.
208
00:17:30,259 --> 00:17:34,555
She immediately relaxed
and became really a quite different girl
209
00:17:34,555 --> 00:17:36,723
after she'd been with us for a bit.
210
00:17:38,225 --> 00:17:40,561
We had her in there for six weeks,
211
00:17:40,561 --> 00:17:46,108
and we found a not-unusual teenager.
212
00:17:57,661 --> 00:18:00,497
{\an8}Mrs. Hodgson is talking
about her interview...
213
00:18:00,497 --> 00:18:03,041
- ...with Dr. Fenwick.
- Fenwick.
214
00:18:03,876 --> 00:18:06,712
- He asked you how Janet was.
- Yeah.
215
00:18:06,712 --> 00:18:08,046
Just tell me that again, will you?
216
00:18:08,046 --> 00:18:11,091
And I turned round, and I said,
Janet has been a lot better
217
00:18:11,091 --> 00:18:13,427
since she's been away from the house,
which she has,
218
00:18:13,427 --> 00:18:15,262
- and she looked a lot better.
- Yeah.
219
00:18:16,388 --> 00:18:17,222
Can I get in here?
220
00:18:17,222 --> 00:18:19,308
My wife will tell you
the next time you ask her
221
00:18:19,892 --> 00:18:22,644
that she was amazed
when she saw Janet away.
222
00:18:22,644 --> 00:18:28,483
She said that-- the way she described it--
cowed look had gone.
223
00:18:29,443 --> 00:18:31,904
- You know what she's talking about.
- She looked very cowed before she left.
224
00:18:31,904 --> 00:18:33,697
Very cowed. She said it's completely gone.
225
00:18:33,697 --> 00:18:37,117
Yeah. Well, I also said to him--
I must bear in mind,
226
00:18:37,117 --> 00:18:40,162
and I must admit
that Janet is a moody child.
227
00:18:40,162 --> 00:18:42,247
- And she's a very restless child.
- Yeah.
228
00:18:42,873 --> 00:18:44,666
But I'll tell you what I think--
229
00:18:45,417 --> 00:18:47,127
and I'm gonna be quite honest about it--
230
00:18:47,127 --> 00:18:50,339
she's my daughter,
and I miss her very much,
231
00:18:51,048 --> 00:18:53,550
but I don't think she should
come back here.
232
00:18:56,386 --> 00:18:59,139
With me, like,
I was the black sheep, you know?
233
00:19:02,017 --> 00:19:04,394
She didn't really want me
'cause I was trouble.
234
00:19:06,605 --> 00:19:09,233
I was part of the problem
while it was happening.
235
00:19:15,822 --> 00:19:21,119
When I came out the Maudsley,
I was picked up by the social worker.
236
00:19:22,621 --> 00:19:25,290
And he was taking me
around children's homes,
237
00:19:25,290 --> 00:19:28,627
trying to find another
children's home for me.
238
00:19:37,928 --> 00:19:40,097
He couldn't find one. They were all full.
239
00:19:42,015 --> 00:19:42,850
Okay...
240
00:19:42,850 --> 00:19:45,602
And in the end, he took me back to Mum.
241
00:19:51,942 --> 00:19:53,443
And Mum's face,
242
00:19:54,486 --> 00:19:56,947
I could tell she didn't really
want me home.
243
00:20:04,830 --> 00:20:10,002
I think she was fearful that it
would all really start up badly again
244
00:20:10,002 --> 00:20:11,879
because I was back there.
245
00:20:17,634 --> 00:20:19,303
This is the...
246
00:20:20,304 --> 00:20:23,056
In this program,
we're going to explore an area
247
00:20:23,056 --> 00:20:26,894
where our common sense notions
aren't going to be much help to us at all.
248
00:20:26,894 --> 00:20:30,314
How does the uncertainty principle
square up with the everyday world?
249
00:20:32,232 --> 00:20:38,280
When I got home, I just needed peace
and to-- just to be left alone, really.
250
00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:36,672
Clear off. Get out. We've had enough.
251
00:21:36,672 --> 00:21:40,592
We've had enough of you.
Go back where you came from.
252
00:21:57,192 --> 00:22:02,447
I would like, for one moment,
to contemplate the word "truth."
253
00:22:04,867 --> 00:22:06,702
Where does the truth lie?
254
00:22:07,953 --> 00:22:11,623
Only in the everyday decipherings
of our five senses?
255
00:22:14,668 --> 00:22:18,005
Or might it rest in the depths
of an unknown dimension,
256
00:22:20,007 --> 00:22:21,758
beyond our understanding?
257
00:22:33,770 --> 00:22:38,442
{\an8}Hello, Mr. Grosse.
It's Sunday, October the 8th, 1978.
258
00:22:38,442 --> 00:22:41,195
And I'm just going to
make a copy for you--
259
00:22:41,904 --> 00:22:43,906
for your private collection--
260
00:22:45,073 --> 00:22:50,871
of the tape I made with Peter Liefhebber
and Dono Gmelig-Meyling.
261
00:22:51,496 --> 00:22:55,918
I thought this most remarkable story
needed to be got down on tape at once,
262
00:22:55,918 --> 00:22:59,004
so I went round
and I made the tape which follows.
263
00:22:59,004 --> 00:23:02,382
I won't comment on it yet
until you've had time to think it over.
264
00:23:04,593 --> 00:23:07,846
I think you'll find these
coincidences quite interesting.
265
00:23:08,805 --> 00:23:13,393
You'll notice that I didn't offer
any information concerning you personally.
266
00:23:16,438 --> 00:23:18,398
Before the investigation,
267
00:23:18,941 --> 00:23:22,444
my father had suffered
a huge emotional loss.
268
00:23:23,362 --> 00:23:26,365
And Guy-- because he was a spiritualist,
269
00:23:26,365 --> 00:23:28,116
because he believed in those things--
270
00:23:28,742 --> 00:23:34,081
couldn't get out
of his mind a potential connection.
271
00:23:35,207 --> 00:23:37,167
All right. I'll start the copy now.
272
00:23:41,755 --> 00:23:45,217
{\an8}Friday, October the 6th, 1978.
273
00:23:45,217 --> 00:23:47,845
{\an8}Belgravia Hotel, to see Peter Liefhebber.
274
00:23:48,929 --> 00:23:51,390
- Right. Here we are in the hotel, Peter.
- Yes.
275
00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:55,102
Well, I wonder, could you tell me roughly
what you told me on the phone?
276
00:23:55,102 --> 00:23:57,271
What exactly happened?
277
00:23:58,021 --> 00:24:00,941
On Wednesday evening,
we met Maurice Grosse for the first time.
278
00:24:00,941 --> 00:24:02,776
- Yes.
- And when he came in the car,
279
00:24:02,776 --> 00:24:06,196
Dono and I felt the same thing.
280
00:24:06,905 --> 00:24:08,198
An enormous tension again,
281
00:24:08,198 --> 00:24:11,910
the same tenseness we felt
when we first arrived
282
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,204
in the Hodgson's house.
283
00:24:15,247 --> 00:24:19,501
And he said to me,
"There is something with Maurice--
284
00:24:19,501 --> 00:24:21,044
There is something in his aura.
285
00:24:21,545 --> 00:24:24,631
I can't figure out now what is there,
but there is something.
286
00:24:24,631 --> 00:24:27,801
Something very close,
connected to the whole affair."
287
00:24:27,801 --> 00:24:29,511
And he didn't say that about me,
for instance?
288
00:24:29,511 --> 00:24:30,679
No. No, no.
289
00:24:31,638 --> 00:24:35,350
Dono said that there was something...
290
00:24:36,101 --> 00:24:39,354
very close in his family
related with the affair.
291
00:24:39,938 --> 00:24:41,523
It was quite obvious that
292
00:24:42,357 --> 00:24:43,859
there should have been
293
00:24:43,859 --> 00:24:46,111
also some poltergeist phenomena
294
00:24:46,111 --> 00:24:48,405
within the neighborhood of Maurice Grosse.
295
00:24:49,323 --> 00:24:50,240
Well, I didn't--
296
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:51,950
Because of the shape of his aura.
297
00:24:57,873 --> 00:24:59,625
{\an8}And that Monday evening,
298
00:24:59,625 --> 00:25:04,338
{\an8}Dono had an out-of-the-body experience
in the house of the Hodgsons.
299
00:25:04,338 --> 00:25:07,174
- He can do things like that at will.
- Yes.
300
00:25:07,174 --> 00:25:13,388
And on the astral level,
he saw a girl of about 24 years old.
301
00:25:14,848 --> 00:25:16,725
She had a rather long face
302
00:25:17,893 --> 00:25:21,688
and rather brown or dark hair
or something like that,
303
00:25:21,688 --> 00:25:23,440
but it was rather vague.
304
00:25:24,525 --> 00:25:26,068
It was just an impression, you know.
305
00:25:26,401 --> 00:25:29,780
All those things consist merely
of impressions.
306
00:25:30,781 --> 00:25:36,453
Dono told me that he thought
that the girl had been in hospital.
307
00:25:37,329 --> 00:25:38,956
That there was something with her head.
308
00:25:38,956 --> 00:25:40,874
There was something wrong with her head?
309
00:25:40,874 --> 00:25:42,417
Something with her head, yes.
310
00:25:42,417 --> 00:25:44,795
There was some damage to her brains
or something like that.
311
00:25:44,795 --> 00:25:46,171
- Damage?
- Yes.
312
00:25:52,344 --> 00:25:54,513
My sister was a character.
313
00:25:55,764 --> 00:25:58,559
My sister lived life to the full.
314
00:25:59,226 --> 00:26:03,981
{\an8}She was Janet Esther Grosse,
and she was 22 years old.
315
00:26:04,690 --> 00:26:08,277
{\an8}She was 22 years old. No age at all.
316
00:26:14,449 --> 00:26:17,870
My sister was killed
in a motorcycle accident in Cardiff.
317
00:26:19,371 --> 00:26:21,206
And it happened on my birthday.
318
00:26:23,625 --> 00:26:27,796
I received a visit from the police,
I think, 2:30 in the morning,
319
00:26:29,256 --> 00:26:31,967
telling me that I should go
to Cardiff Royal Infirmary
320
00:26:32,634 --> 00:26:34,344
because that's where she was.
321
00:26:36,138 --> 00:26:41,393
{\an8}Janet was lying on the hospital bed
with her head wrapped
322
00:26:41,393 --> 00:26:43,353
{\an8}in bandages, and two black eyes.
323
00:26:43,353 --> 00:26:46,899
{\an8}She'd suffered a major trauma to her head.
324
00:26:50,194 --> 00:26:52,613
And we all sat there.
And it was a tragic day.
325
00:26:53,113 --> 00:26:54,990
And we eventually
switched the machine off,
326
00:26:54,990 --> 00:26:57,367
and my sister passed away.
327
00:27:00,996 --> 00:27:05,792
And around that awful event
328
00:27:05,792 --> 00:27:08,962
were some extraordinary things
that happened.
329
00:27:11,632 --> 00:27:14,927
Call them coincidence, call them fate,
call them whatever you like.
330
00:27:16,762 --> 00:27:20,766
The afternoon before,
when my sister had her accident,
331
00:27:20,766 --> 00:27:22,768
my mother was on the beach.
332
00:27:23,852 --> 00:27:28,232
And at that time, 4:20 in the afternoon,
she felt seriously ill,
333
00:27:28,232 --> 00:27:32,069
so ill that my father wanted
to call an ambulance to the beach.
334
00:27:34,112 --> 00:27:39,826
A clock that had always worked
stopped at the precise time, 4:20.
335
00:27:42,663 --> 00:27:47,876
It was the summer of 1976
when it didn't rain for months,
336
00:27:47,876 --> 00:27:50,128
and there was a huge water shortage.
337
00:27:51,380 --> 00:27:55,092
And underneath my sister's
bedroom window is the roof
338
00:27:55,592 --> 00:27:57,845
of the extension to the kitchen.
339
00:27:59,429 --> 00:28:01,557
That roof was soaking wet.
340
00:28:03,183 --> 00:28:07,729
No other roofs anywhere around were wet.
Just that roof.
341
00:28:12,067 --> 00:28:16,572
But I think the most extraordinary event
happened to me.
342
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,118
After my sister died,
on the way back, on the train,
343
00:28:21,118 --> 00:28:23,996
I realized that my sister would've
sent me a birthday card.
344
00:28:25,330 --> 00:28:27,875
And that birthday card
would almost certainly
345
00:28:27,875 --> 00:28:30,919
be on the mat at home when I got in.
346
00:28:34,548 --> 00:28:39,678
Janet's birthday card to Richard,
August the 5th, 1976.
347
00:28:43,348 --> 00:28:47,144
I was absolutely amazed by what I saw.
348
00:28:48,687 --> 00:28:54,193
On the front was a person
with a head wrapped in bandages,
349
00:28:54,193 --> 00:28:56,904
two black eyes, in a hospital gown.
350
00:28:59,823 --> 00:29:03,911
"I was going to buy you a bottle
of toilet water for your birthday...
351
00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:08,749
but the lid fell on my head.
Happy birthday."
352
00:29:09,917 --> 00:29:13,045
A strange, strange wording for a card.
353
00:29:14,588 --> 00:29:18,008
But what was even stranger was
that my sister had written
354
00:29:18,008 --> 00:29:22,179
in her own hand an arrow pointing to
the word "head."
355
00:29:22,179 --> 00:29:23,889
And it went down, and it said,
356
00:29:23,889 --> 00:29:28,936
"And there won't be much left
of that soon anyway. Love, Jan."
357
00:29:30,812 --> 00:29:34,274
How could she have known,
but without knowing?
358
00:29:34,274 --> 00:29:36,985
How could--
How could something like this happen?
359
00:29:36,985 --> 00:29:38,070
It's...
360
00:29:40,989 --> 00:29:42,407
It's too unreal.
361
00:29:46,161 --> 00:29:50,249
All these phenomena, and the fact
that they all happened at the same time,
362
00:29:50,958 --> 00:29:53,961
made us feel that there
was something going on.
363
00:29:53,961 --> 00:29:55,671
Janet. Janet.
364
00:29:55,671 --> 00:29:57,506
Poltergeist.
365
00:29:57,506 --> 00:29:59,007
Something that we couldn't explain.
366
00:29:59,007 --> 00:30:00,801
Are you listening, Janet?
367
00:30:00,801 --> 00:30:05,973
P-O-L-T-E-R-G-E-I-S-T.
368
00:30:05,973 --> 00:30:08,517
Poltergeist.
369
00:30:08,517 --> 00:30:10,602
It changed him completely.
370
00:30:14,314 --> 00:30:16,400
Losing a child...
371
00:30:16,984 --> 00:30:20,779
Time helps, but you never get over it.
372
00:30:23,615 --> 00:30:24,867
Happens.
373
00:30:27,035 --> 00:30:29,663
I often wonder what would have happened
had she lived,
374
00:30:30,914 --> 00:30:33,500
how different our lives would have been.
375
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:35,961
Your life would have been quite different.
You realize that, don't you?
376
00:30:35,961 --> 00:30:38,797
My life would have been quite different
because it was the extraordinary things
377
00:30:38,797 --> 00:30:41,175
that happened when she--
378
00:30:41,175 --> 00:30:44,970
around about the time she died.
Extraordinary psychic thing--
379
00:30:44,970 --> 00:30:47,181
what I consider to be psychic,
and so did you--
380
00:30:47,181 --> 00:30:49,016
that happened, that sort of
381
00:30:49,016 --> 00:30:54,146
launched me onto this determination
to try and find out more
382
00:30:54,146 --> 00:30:57,316
about what happens when you-- you die,
383
00:30:57,316 --> 00:30:59,401
and what psychic research is all about.
384
00:31:04,114 --> 00:31:05,949
If you think of coincidence,
385
00:31:05,949 --> 00:31:10,913
then how extraordinary not only
is that set of circumstances--
386
00:31:11,705 --> 00:31:15,542
But my father goes to the Society
and says, "I'd like a case,"
387
00:31:16,418 --> 00:31:21,340
and the very first case that comes along
turns out to be arguably
388
00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:24,885
the most important case in
the history of paranormal activity.
389
00:31:27,221 --> 00:31:29,473
Did you-- Did you die in this house?
390
00:31:30,015 --> 00:31:32,893
Did you pass on?
You did pass on in this house?
391
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:36,146
Now why are you here? Are you unhappy?
392
00:31:36,146 --> 00:31:39,441
Now, I often wonder, you know,
strange it may seem,
393
00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:42,152
it could be coincidence.
394
00:31:42,152 --> 00:31:45,364
It may not have been
that his daughter's name was Janet.
395
00:31:47,741 --> 00:31:50,285
But I think he felt that, at the time--
396
00:31:50,285 --> 00:31:53,455
like he was put in touch
with us for a reason.
397
00:31:54,873 --> 00:31:57,042
You did pass on in this house?
398
00:31:57,042 --> 00:31:59,920
Now why are you here? Are you unhappy?
399
00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:05,926
Christ! It's the ghost! It's the ghost!
400
00:32:05,926 --> 00:32:07,928
Janet. Can you hear me, Janet?
401
00:32:25,153 --> 00:32:29,533
Because he'd lost his daughter,
you could argue that, you know,
402
00:32:29,533 --> 00:32:32,119
he had a-- a motive,
403
00:32:32,703 --> 00:32:34,955
an incentive to try and find evidence.
404
00:32:38,125 --> 00:32:41,420
But the question of coincidences
or synchronicity,
405
00:32:41,420 --> 00:32:44,506
this domain of experience is fundamental.
406
00:32:46,049 --> 00:32:48,218
If you yourself have had an experience,
407
00:32:48,218 --> 00:32:51,597
that is what's going to make you take
this phenomena seriously.
408
00:32:52,931 --> 00:32:55,767
Certainly, for me,
I've had experiences which--
409
00:32:55,767 --> 00:32:59,605
which have, you know,
made me feel these phenomena are g--
410
00:32:59,605 --> 00:33:01,315
some of these phenomena are genuine.
411
00:33:08,739 --> 00:33:11,658
The whole point about psychical research
is it does suggest
412
00:33:11,658 --> 00:33:15,746
that consciousness can actually directly
interact with the physical world.
413
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,711
Because I had this interest
in consciousness,
414
00:33:23,837 --> 00:33:28,592
{\an8}obviously things like telepathy,
psychokinesis and so on
415
00:33:28,592 --> 00:33:31,386
{\an8}were phenomena
which I was also interested in.
416
00:33:33,347 --> 00:33:38,018
I began to see consciousness
as a much wider phenomenon,
417
00:33:39,061 --> 00:33:41,522
not just generated in the brain.
418
00:33:43,273 --> 00:33:45,108
I think the brain is in a field,
419
00:33:45,108 --> 00:33:48,070
and I think brain fields interact
with each other.
420
00:33:50,030 --> 00:33:53,825
The way that I might look
at the Enfield poltergeist would be
421
00:33:53,825 --> 00:33:56,453
that you have
a highly disturbed adolescent.
422
00:33:56,453 --> 00:34:00,123
They've got this wonderful machine
which is called their brain,
423
00:34:00,666 --> 00:34:04,628
and it can interact
with the field of consciousness.
424
00:34:05,838 --> 00:34:08,590
And if it does that,
then these things can arise.
425
00:34:10,967 --> 00:34:14,429
You can, by an intention, change things.
426
00:34:25,065 --> 00:34:27,734
The physical world
is just a sort of, you know--
427
00:34:27,734 --> 00:34:30,237
it's like a four-dimensional slice,
in my perspective,
428
00:34:30,237 --> 00:34:32,572
of this higher-dimensional reality.
429
00:34:36,034 --> 00:34:39,161
And this higher-dimensional reality is,
if you like--
430
00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:41,706
that's the world of mind.
431
00:34:46,335 --> 00:34:49,047
The truth is,
if psychic phenomena were real,
432
00:34:49,047 --> 00:34:51,425
it would be so important
that we need to be sure.
433
00:34:52,842 --> 00:34:55,846
{\an8}I got into psychic research
through an experience of my own,
434
00:34:55,846 --> 00:34:59,516
{\an8}a dramatic out-of-the-body-
turned-mystical experience
435
00:34:59,516 --> 00:35:01,143
that I couldn't understand at all.
436
00:35:01,143 --> 00:35:04,229
This was when I was a first-year student
at Oxford in 1970.
437
00:35:05,772 --> 00:35:10,527
I became so committed
to the idea that my spirit
438
00:35:10,527 --> 00:35:14,239
or astral body had left that I thought,
439
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,784
"Well, I don't want to carry on
with what would've been a sensible career
440
00:35:17,784 --> 00:35:20,621
in psychology and physiology,"
which is what I was doing,
441
00:35:21,163 --> 00:35:23,624
"I want to prove to the world
that there are psychic phenomena."
442
00:35:24,958 --> 00:35:28,045
I started doing a lot
of experiments on telepathy,
443
00:35:28,045 --> 00:35:30,130
clairvoyance, precognition and so on.
444
00:35:30,130 --> 00:35:31,632
According to one theory,
445
00:35:31,632 --> 00:35:35,344
PK powers fade with age and should
therefore be strongest in babies.
446
00:35:36,220 --> 00:35:40,057
The computer will play a nice tune
and show a smiling face,
447
00:35:40,057 --> 00:35:41,975
which Emily enjoys looking at,
448
00:35:42,601 --> 00:35:44,770
according to the output
of the random number generator.
449
00:35:51,485 --> 00:35:53,820
And what happens is,
if she's using her PK successfully,
450
00:35:53,820 --> 00:35:55,572
it will play more often.
451
00:35:57,908 --> 00:36:00,035
To begin with,
I got some significant results
452
00:36:00,035 --> 00:36:01,703
- that you wouldn't expect by chance.
- Bye.
453
00:36:06,667 --> 00:36:09,670
But then, over four to five years,
454
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:12,256
the experimental work that I did
455
00:36:12,798 --> 00:36:16,426
led me to be ever and ever more doubtful.
456
00:36:17,886 --> 00:36:20,389
And I became more and more worried.
457
00:36:22,349 --> 00:36:24,560
"Well, how am I ever going
to find these things?"
458
00:36:29,439 --> 00:36:31,650
"Well, if that doesn't work,
there's always this.
459
00:36:31,650 --> 00:36:33,277
And if this doesn't work,
then there's this.
460
00:36:34,444 --> 00:36:37,197
There's always another door to open.
There's always another corner to turn."
461
00:36:37,197 --> 00:36:38,282
That was the feeling.
462
00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:40,742
Until one day,
463
00:36:41,660 --> 00:36:46,999
this thought came over me:
What if none of it is true?
464
00:37:01,263 --> 00:37:05,851
The whole point about psychical research
is that you should be skeptical.
465
00:37:07,227 --> 00:37:08,478
I mean, not disbelieving,
466
00:37:08,478 --> 00:37:12,524
but you should start off always trying
to find a natural explanation.
467
00:37:13,942 --> 00:37:15,485
That's true of science in general.
468
00:37:15,485 --> 00:37:18,155
You should be skeptical in the sense
that you're always open.
469
00:37:20,574 --> 00:37:26,330
The Enfield case is without doubt
one of the most evidential cases
470
00:37:26,330 --> 00:37:29,166
in the sense that we've got
all these recordings.
471
00:37:32,711 --> 00:37:38,300
{\an8}Inevitably, any so-called
"spontaneous" case is chaotic,
472
00:37:38,300 --> 00:37:42,346
{\an8}and it is hard to come by
any definite conclusion.
473
00:37:42,346 --> 00:37:47,434
{\an8}There is, as regards Enfield,
a considerable amount of testimony.
474
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,815
You see things that you can't explain,
you've got a tendency not to believe them.
475
00:37:53,815 --> 00:37:56,193
You've got a tendency to say,
"I didn't really see 'em."
476
00:37:56,193 --> 00:37:57,277
But you know you did.
477
00:37:58,987 --> 00:38:02,366
And there was a chest of drawers
moving towards the door.
478
00:38:03,617 --> 00:38:04,952
And there was banging.
479
00:38:04,952 --> 00:38:09,498
Banging on the side of the walls,
and on the ceiling. On the floor.
480
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,377
Some of this testimony
is quite impressive and reassuring,
481
00:38:14,336 --> 00:38:17,548
but there is no real evidence.
482
00:38:21,218 --> 00:38:23,720
My view is that, unfortunately,
483
00:38:24,721 --> 00:38:28,809
much of the case withers away
on closer inspection.
484
00:38:30,686 --> 00:38:34,106
There was an ordinary kitchen chair
moved across the room.
485
00:38:34,106 --> 00:38:38,986
Small armchair, and it jumped, was it,
about four or five inches from the settee?
486
00:38:38,986 --> 00:38:41,071
and the policewoman saw it.
487
00:38:41,071 --> 00:38:44,867
It came off the floor nearly a half inch,
I should say.
488
00:38:45,450 --> 00:38:49,705
It moved approximately
three to four feet and then came to rest.
489
00:38:49,705 --> 00:38:54,793
Moved about, well, I expect 18 inches,
something like that. Just a short way.
490
00:38:57,713 --> 00:39:00,424
Our brain's main thing
they're doing all the time
491
00:39:00,424 --> 00:39:02,217
is recognizing patterns.
492
00:39:08,307 --> 00:39:10,184
The more we understand about the brain,
493
00:39:10,184 --> 00:39:13,604
the less room there is for
belief in paranormal phenomena.
494
00:39:16,899 --> 00:39:21,361
Human bodies are machines,
but somehow we want to be more than that.
495
00:39:23,197 --> 00:39:26,617
People want to believe
there's more than this world.
496
00:39:29,536 --> 00:39:33,832
But as I entered the front room,
something-- I think it was a LEGO brick--
497
00:39:34,333 --> 00:39:38,545
came from behind me very low down and
very fast and hit the wall in front of me.
498
00:39:38,545 --> 00:39:42,132
- I went straight toward...
- Looking back on it now...
499
00:39:42,132 --> 00:39:44,510
- ...and stood with my back to it...
- ...my own impression
500
00:39:45,344 --> 00:39:48,055
is that, you know,
there's so many accounts,
501
00:39:49,598 --> 00:39:51,016
so many witnesses.
502
00:39:53,101 --> 00:39:55,938
One can't just dismiss all those
and say it was all fraud or imagination.
503
00:39:58,190 --> 00:40:01,026
{\an8}What's so frustrating is
we still don't know.
504
00:40:01,026 --> 00:40:02,861
{\an8}Not just in the Enfield case,
505
00:40:02,861 --> 00:40:06,281
{\an8}it applies to almost everything
in psychical research.
506
00:40:06,281 --> 00:40:11,787
But that's precisely what makes psych--
the subject so tantalizing.
507
00:40:16,250 --> 00:40:21,547
How would you distinguish between
what is nonsense and what is--
508
00:40:21,547 --> 00:40:22,965
what is true?
509
00:40:30,430 --> 00:40:32,683
It has been said many times
510
00:40:33,934 --> 00:40:37,771
by skeptics and critics
of psychic research
511
00:40:38,772 --> 00:40:43,443
that my interest in the subject
was motivated by grief.
512
00:40:45,362 --> 00:40:49,366
And that this grief
distorted my sense of reality.
513
00:40:55,247 --> 00:40:58,458
Their conclusions are entirely mistaken.
514
00:41:00,586 --> 00:41:06,300
The Enfield case proved to my satisfaction
and beyond a shadow of doubt,
515
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:13,056
that the realities of life and death
are not what they appear to be.
516
00:41:32,284 --> 00:41:35,579
Bill, I want you to tell me
517
00:41:36,705 --> 00:41:40,083
whether you remember
what happened to you when you died.
518
00:41:42,002 --> 00:41:44,379
Just before you died
and just after you died.
519
00:41:45,255 --> 00:41:48,717
Bill, who was the voice--
this is the ghost--
520
00:41:49,801 --> 00:41:51,053
he described how he died.
521
00:42:09,905 --> 00:42:13,200
{\an8}Some years later,
my father received a telephone call.
522
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,079
{\an8}And it was from a man
who said he knew the voice.
523
00:42:20,332 --> 00:42:22,793
- Hello.
- Hello, Maurice. Nice to meet you again.
524
00:42:22,793 --> 00:42:24,461
- Nice seeing you again.
- Come in.
525
00:42:24,461 --> 00:42:30,926
This chap identified himself as
the son of William Wilkins-- Bill.
526
00:42:32,386 --> 00:42:35,180
Bill, I want you to tell me
527
00:42:35,180 --> 00:42:38,767
whether you remember
what happened to you when you died.
528
00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:42,938
Just before you died
and just after you died.
529
00:42:51,488 --> 00:42:56,118
Days before I died, I went blind.
530
00:42:58,036 --> 00:43:01,915
Then I had an hemorrhage,
and I fell asleep,
531
00:43:01,915 --> 00:43:06,044
and I died in a chair
in a corner downstairs.
532
00:43:07,963 --> 00:43:10,549
- Is-- That's right?
- That's exactly true.
533
00:43:10,549 --> 00:43:12,843
- That is exactly true, yes.
- Exactly as he did.
534
00:43:12,843 --> 00:43:16,221
And we're-- Of course, at that time,
we certainly didn't know how he died.
535
00:43:16,221 --> 00:43:18,307
The only thing we knew at that time
536
00:43:18,307 --> 00:43:20,350
- was that your father had gone blind.
- Yeah.
537
00:43:20,350 --> 00:43:22,144
- We didn't know anything else.
- No, no.
538
00:43:22,144 --> 00:43:25,230
- But it describes exactly how he died.
- That's exactly what happened.
539
00:43:25,230 --> 00:43:27,858
He died in the chair,
down in the living room.
540
00:43:28,525 --> 00:43:31,361
My mum popped out
to the shop for ten minutes.
541
00:43:31,361 --> 00:43:32,863
When she came back, he was dead.
542
00:43:34,489 --> 00:43:35,490
Incredible.
543
00:43:36,366 --> 00:43:39,995
- That's exact--
- And here we are, another confirmation.
544
00:43:42,497 --> 00:43:43,582
Very interesting.
545
00:43:44,625 --> 00:43:47,669
See, the sort of things
like knocking on the wall.
546
00:43:48,253 --> 00:43:50,714
The three knocks,
always three knocks on the wall.
547
00:43:51,381 --> 00:43:53,258
It was just a strange knock on the wall.
548
00:43:57,971 --> 00:44:00,432
During the war they were
air raid wardens together.
549
00:44:00,432 --> 00:44:04,186
And if ever the sirens went off,
one would knock to the other one.
550
00:44:04,186 --> 00:44:05,604
And then they'd meet out the back,
551
00:44:05,604 --> 00:44:08,899
"Are you ready, Fred?" "Yeah."
"Okay, see you outside in a moment."
552
00:44:08,899 --> 00:44:12,319
And then they'd go off.
That's how they used to communicate.
553
00:44:12,819 --> 00:44:14,488
Rather than go knocking on the door,
554
00:44:14,488 --> 00:44:17,032
there'd be three taps
on the wall every time.
555
00:44:17,032 --> 00:44:18,116
Amazing.
556
00:44:27,292 --> 00:44:30,087
"Spoon bent at breakfast by Janet."
557
00:44:41,098 --> 00:44:42,933
These are things. These are just objects.
558
00:44:42,933 --> 00:44:47,187
And without context,
they don't mean anything.
559
00:44:49,231 --> 00:44:51,900
Except it represents, you know, this--
560
00:44:52,442 --> 00:44:54,653
such an important part
of my father's life,
561
00:44:54,653 --> 00:44:57,322
and the time and effort that went into it.
562
00:45:01,952 --> 00:45:05,747
For me, the whole experience tells me
563
00:45:05,747 --> 00:45:10,377
that there are things above
and beyond our senses.
564
00:45:12,671 --> 00:45:17,718
When someone tells me their story--
and so many people have stories
565
00:45:18,218 --> 00:45:23,724
of things that have happened to them--
I don't dismiss them anymore. I listen.
566
00:45:27,352 --> 00:45:29,730
- Rolling?
- Yeah. Do I need a seat belt?
567
00:45:29,730 --> 00:45:31,440
- It doesn't need a seat belt.
- No?
568
00:45:35,611 --> 00:45:41,366
The last 29 years of his life,
he was a paranormal investigator,
569
00:45:42,993 --> 00:45:48,290
which I know he enjoyed probably
more than any other time in his life.
570
00:45:51,126 --> 00:45:56,089
We went to "intraview" Britain's leading
expert on ghosts. Check it.
571
00:45:56,089 --> 00:46:01,970
I is here with Britain's number one
parapsychologist, Maurice Grosse.
572
00:46:01,970 --> 00:46:07,351
And we is here, actually in a
haunted house, and I is well scared.
573
00:46:07,351 --> 00:46:08,602
I's bricking it.
574
00:46:08,602 --> 00:46:11,230
How long has this house been haunted?
575
00:46:11,230 --> 00:46:12,523
- This house?
- Aye.
576
00:46:12,523 --> 00:46:16,568
This-- No. You-- We got it all wrong.
This is not a haunted house.
577
00:46:16,568 --> 00:46:17,903
- This--
- This is my house...
578
00:46:19,196 --> 00:46:20,447
You investigate things.
579
00:46:20,447 --> 00:46:22,199
Now, one of the most difficult things
580
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:24,117
that you ever did was
the Enfield poltergeist.
581
00:46:24,117 --> 00:46:25,452
What things did you see?
582
00:46:25,452 --> 00:46:29,164
- Well, things flying about. We had--
- What things?
583
00:46:29,164 --> 00:46:33,043
Big furniture, small furniture.
In fact, the settee turned upside down
584
00:46:33,043 --> 00:46:36,046
and flew across the room right
in front of me as I walked into the room.
585
00:46:36,046 --> 00:46:38,006
- Had you been drinking?
- No.
586
00:46:38,507 --> 00:46:39,550
Too funny.
587
00:46:43,846 --> 00:46:45,097
- Hello, Uri.
- Hello, Maurice.
588
00:46:45,097 --> 00:46:46,807
- How are you? Nice to see you.
- Hi, how are you?
589
00:46:46,807 --> 00:46:48,684
- Lovely to see you.
- You're filming, huh?
590
00:46:48,684 --> 00:46:49,768
- Yes.
- Come on in.
591
00:46:49,768 --> 00:46:51,520
{\an8}- Ready?
- Yes.
592
00:46:52,312 --> 00:46:53,397
{\an8}Oh, my God.
593
00:46:55,774 --> 00:46:57,609
Oh, goodness me.
594
00:46:57,609 --> 00:47:00,195
5,000 bent spoons and forks on it.
595
00:47:00,195 --> 00:47:02,906
Many of them were bent with my abilities,
my powers.
596
00:47:02,906 --> 00:47:04,449
Oh, heavens.
597
00:47:04,449 --> 00:47:06,660
See, it brought a smile on your face.
598
00:47:07,244 --> 00:47:09,162
I'll say. I'll say.
599
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:16,920
Whatever we know about life,
about the world,
600
00:47:18,964 --> 00:47:20,465
we still haven't cracked it.
601
00:47:20,465 --> 00:47:21,884
Here we go.
602
00:47:22,759 --> 00:47:26,722
There's still things that we--
we probably won't ever find out.
603
00:47:28,807 --> 00:47:30,601
Dad tried to find out.
604
00:47:31,435 --> 00:47:35,939
He was a lovely dad. He was a lovely dad.
605
00:47:38,984 --> 00:47:42,946
And though the case was over,
he used to come once a month.
606
00:47:44,072 --> 00:47:46,241
This evening should be
very interesting indeed.
607
00:47:46,241 --> 00:47:48,952
I'm going to see Margaret and her mother,
608
00:47:49,453 --> 00:47:54,041
of the Enfield poltergeist case,
now nearly 18 years ago.
609
00:47:55,334 --> 00:47:59,296
He'd have boxes of Maltesers for us each.
610
00:47:59,296 --> 00:48:04,426
Well, here I am
at this famous house in Enfield.
611
00:48:05,052 --> 00:48:11,642
And here you see Margaret and her mother.
612
00:48:11,642 --> 00:48:14,645
He'd talk to my mum.
She would make him a cup of tea,
613
00:48:14,645 --> 00:48:18,190
and he would ask how she's been
and how we all are.
614
00:48:18,190 --> 00:48:20,150
You remember the day I first came?
615
00:48:20,651 --> 00:48:22,986
- Yes, I remember, Mr. Grosse.
- Yeah, we do remember that, Mr. Grosse.
616
00:48:22,986 --> 00:48:25,531
- And you was on the case ever since then.
- Yeah.
617
00:48:25,531 --> 00:48:26,823
You know, it wasn't like,
618
00:48:26,823 --> 00:48:30,202
"Now the poltergeist is finished,
I'm just not gonna come."
619
00:48:30,202 --> 00:48:31,954
He made the effort,
620
00:48:31,954 --> 00:48:35,707
and he continued to be
like a family friend as well.
621
00:48:44,925 --> 00:48:48,637
I used to go back regularly
just to look at that house.
622
00:48:51,014 --> 00:48:55,394
About two years ago, we went in the car,
and my husband drove us.
623
00:48:55,394 --> 00:48:58,397
We got the feeling no one
was really in there.
624
00:48:59,940 --> 00:49:03,569
We just had a look, and then all this
flashing started in the living room.
625
00:49:04,152 --> 00:49:08,031
All the lights started going on and off,
flashing on and off.
626
00:49:10,450 --> 00:49:15,747
I felt like maybe
something had recognized me.
627
00:49:25,257 --> 00:49:26,842
I don't wanna go back there now.
628
00:49:29,428 --> 00:49:30,929
I don't wanna go back there.
629
00:49:44,443 --> 00:49:48,238
I was glad to get out of there.
I left home as soon as I could.
630
00:49:52,284 --> 00:49:53,368
Where is she?
631
00:49:59,082 --> 00:50:03,504
It's something
that not many people experience.
632
00:50:04,379 --> 00:50:09,676
And I've had to get strong
from a pretty early age and build on that.
633
00:50:11,178 --> 00:50:12,763
Try and explain to me...
634
00:50:12,763 --> 00:50:14,389
I was in bed, right...
635
00:50:17,476 --> 00:50:21,104
It used to upset me
when they used to say, "She's faking it."
636
00:50:23,398 --> 00:50:25,275
Like this. Like this.
637
00:50:26,026 --> 00:50:29,821
I know what I experienced,
and I know that it was real.
638
00:50:32,241 --> 00:50:33,075
Yeah.
639
00:50:33,075 --> 00:50:36,828
It had such a devastating effect on me.
640
00:50:39,456 --> 00:50:41,291
I've never really said this to anyone,
641
00:50:41,291 --> 00:50:44,378
but you never really
feel completely yourself.
642
00:50:45,045 --> 00:50:47,422
What is "myself," you know?
643
00:51:15,868 --> 00:51:17,661
It's something you never forget.
644
00:51:28,172 --> 00:51:29,464
Something that you'll just think of,
645
00:51:29,464 --> 00:51:31,925
and it'll just come
flowing back, you know?
646
00:51:31,925 --> 00:51:33,844
You never feel like you're free of it.
647
00:51:54,990 --> 00:51:58,827
I don't like to say this, you know,
but I feel it even now.
648
00:52:03,248 --> 00:52:04,833
It's never left me.
55783
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